From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 01:54:07 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB2855jw007481; Sat, 2 Dec 2006 00:15:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB26c1S0028807; Fri, 1 Dec 2006 22:38:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 22:38:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45711F2E.2090309 usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 00:37:34 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil shale research in Israel References: <000501c710a6$1618ad40$28d8163f DFBGQZ91> <456CFF0F.8060604@pobox.com> <000401c71375$da060f00$aedc163f@DFBGQZ91> <456EF73B.6010907@pobox.com> <456FD038.7020007@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <456FD038.7020007 usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> >> >> Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >>> >>> >>> I just question the whole global warming business, as the way some >>> environmentalists and groups thereof have handled the supposed >>> problem makes it seem more a nice way to make a money and power grab >>> than a real concern. >> >> > Dittos, last month I posted about the book, Unstopable Global Warming > Every 1500 years by Avery and Singer, that talks about how the > Vikings lived in Greenland for years, and then were frozen out. The > Romans grew wine grapes in England. > > Not only that, I question that anybody is going to voluntarily cut > back on their lifestyle, let alone freeze in the dark. In other words, > IMHO, it is impossible to reduce mankind's energy usage by any > significant amount. > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 02:28:56 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB2ASUFb005589; Sat, 2 Dec 2006 02:28:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB2AST79005577; Sat, 2 Dec 2006 02:28:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 02:28:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200612012251.kB1MpQsP062503 mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 16:51:25 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: svj orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_5454cd7fc6672758827d0d399b758edb" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: China's Neodymium monopoly is being felt Status: O X-Status: --=_5454cd7fc6672758827d0d399b758edb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI, It's my understanding that the Chinese government has recently increased the price of raw materials to all magnet manufacturers by 60%. This presumably includes the rare-earth material, NEODYMIUM. As previously mentioned on this discussion group the Chinese government quietly and methodically went about the business of purchasing all the mining operations for these kinds of rare-earth elements everywhere on the planet. They now own the whole shebang - everything. They maintain a total monopoly on these kinds of rare-earth supplies. And whadaya know! Suddenly they've decided to increase prices by 60 percent. I maintain a suspicion that rare earth materials, particularly Neodymium, are going to start playing an ever increasing vital role in the development of this planet's AE resources. China stands to make a tidy profit from their shrewd and complete takeover of this market. And the rest of us will be paying, literally, for our lack of foresight. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_5454cd7fc6672758827d0d399b758edb Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FYI,

It's my understanding that the Chinese government has recently increased th= e price of raw materials to all magnet manufacturers by 60%. This presumabl= y includes the rare-earth material, NEODYMIUM.

As previously mentioned on this discussion group the Chinese government qui= etly and methodically went about the business of purchasing all the mining = operations for these kinds of rare-earth elements everywhere on the planet.= They now own the whole shebang - everything. They maintain a total monopol= y on these kinds of rare-earth supplies.

And whadaya know! Suddenly they've decided to increase prices by 60 percent= .

I maintain a suspicion that rare earth materials, particularly Neodymium, a= re going to start playing an ever increasing vital role in the development = of this planet's AE resources. China stands to make a tidy profit from thei= r shrewd and complete takeover of this market.

And the rest of us will be paying, literally, for our lack of foresight.
Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_5454cd7fc6672758827d0d399b758edb-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 04:45:35 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB2CeFHw014836; Sat, 2 Dec 2006 04:40:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB2CeEQB014800; Sat, 2 Dec 2006 04:40:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 04:40:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45705D35.9030704 usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:49:57 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com References: <200612010832.kB18WZom003153 ultra3.eskimo.com> In-Reply-To: <200612010832.kB18WZom003153 ultra3.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Returned mail: see transcript for details Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >>> >>> >>> I just question the whole global warming business, as the way some >>> environmentalists and groups thereof have handled the supposed >>> problem makes it seem more a nice way to make a money and power grab >>> than a real concern. >> >> > Dittos, last month I posted about the book, Unstopable Global Warming > Every 1500 years by Avery and Singer, that talks about how the > Vikings lived in Greenland for years, and then were frozen out. The > Romans grew wine grapes in England. > > Not only that, I question that anybody is going to voluntarily cut > back on their lifestyle, let alone freeze in the dark. In other words, > IMHO, it is impossible to reduce mankind's energy usage by any > significant amount. > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 05:08:29 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB2CpEJp028320; Sat, 2 Dec 2006 04:51:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB2CpAGj028252; Sat, 2 Dec 2006 04:51:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 04:51:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=OhNCtcyCOz/gWqvUqGVvOf9+U9RHZ04e7mS0V4Kig7KSoIpyxA49UocUuRlTeBJe; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006126212505591 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 05:50:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940dc05e1508257064156c850081e08a1d2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.171 Resent-Message-ID: <_bk6T.A.34G.7aXcFB ultra3.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Double-Barreled Ice Pail Experiment Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII After serious contemplation of the "no-field" phenomena inside a charged Van de Graaff sphere, I propose hooking each side of the 240 volt AC 50-60 Hz wall socket outlet to a flour barrel (up to 55 gallons each) sitting on a sheet of Plexiglass, and connected together by a 300+ microfarad motor starting capacitor. I might put mice in them (gerbils or jerboas optional) to see whether they age slower or faster in this "field-free" Aether environment. Beware of the hazardous voltages and the SPCA. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
After serious contemplation of the "no-field" phenomena inside
a charged Van de Graaff sphere, I propose hooking each side
of the 240 volt AC 50-60 Hz wall socket outlet to a flour barrel
(up to 55 gallons each) sitting on a sheet of Plexiglass, and
connected together by a 300+ microfarad motor starting capacitor.
I might put mice in them (gerbils or jerboas optional) to
see whether they age slower or faster in this "field-free" Aether
environment.
Beware of the hazardous voltages and the SPCA.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 07:57:58 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB2FvhTC017525; Sat, 2 Dec 2006 07:57:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB2Fo4P9009504; Sat, 2 Dec 2006 07:50:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 07:50:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.28] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <200612012251.kB1MpQsP062503 mail2.mx.voyager.net> From: "Mark Goldes" To: svj orionworks.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Neodymium might be replaced by polymer Ultraconductors! Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 07:49:55 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Dec 2006 15:49:57.0105 (UTC) FILETIME=[84378610:01C71629] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, Once wire can be fabricated from Ultraconductors(tm), it may prove possible to make permanent magnets using pure polymer materials. This will depend on the ability of a loop made of Ultraconductors to sustain a persistant current, as does a superconductor. Thus far, they have shown several characteristics only found in superconductors: A Critical Current Zero resistance as measured by tests at the world famous Ioffe Institute in St. Petersburg, Russia. Violation of the Weidemann-Franz law by at least six orders of magnitude. etc., etc. They have also demonstrated, at the Bar Ilan University in Israel, the ability to withstand magnetic fields as high as 9 Tesla, with no loss of conductivity. However, wire is still several million dollars and at least two years ahead of us. Not sure if increased funding would help, as part of the problem is similar to pregnancy in terms of accelerating the process. If persistant currents are produced, polymer permanent magnets may become a major alternative with great savings of weight, as well as cost. The raw materials are atactic ploymers. Unlike isotactic polymers which have strength, the atactic is amorphous material, often considered a waste product, sometimes constituting 5% of the polymer produced. Mark Magnetic Power Inc. Room Temperature Superconductors Inc. (a subsidiary) See: www.ultraconductors.com >From: "OrionWorks" >Reply-To: svj orionworks.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: [Vo]: China's Neodymium monopoly is being felt >Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 16:51:25 -0600 > >FYI, > >It's my understanding that the Chinese government has recently increased >the price of raw materials to all magnet manufacturers by 60%. This >presumably includes the rare-earth material, NEODYMIUM. > >As previously mentioned on this discussion group the Chinese government >quietly and methodically went about the business of purchasing all the >mining operations for these kinds of rare-earth elements everywhere on the >planet. They now own the whole shebang - everything. They maintain a total >monopoly on these kinds of rare-earth supplies. > >And whadaya know! Suddenly they've decided to increase prices by 60 >percent. > >I maintain a suspicion that rare earth materials, particularly Neodymium, >are going to start playing an ever increasing vital role in the development >of this planet's AE resources. China stands to make a tidy profit from >their shrewd and complete takeover of this market. > >And the rest of us will be paying, literally, for our lack of foresight. > >Regards, >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 09:02:47 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB2Gopla028521; Sat, 2 Dec 2006 08:50:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB2Gojla028393; Sat, 2 Dec 2006 08:50:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 08:50:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=YjjH3lG7ivD8+YdbyPks/6ti8r3TLhKg0arLU/pu4lfuu/GtuJEAWc2ygT+5hZOO; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061262164613549 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 09:46:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fbaf1562d846427e90040a671284f326350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.11 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Paint Can Bubble Experiment Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Two press-lid paint cans head-to-head using a polymer bolt and spacer at center to hold the lids together, possibly with water in the cans to ballast them enough to float beneath an insulating oil surface (in a plastic container sitting on a balance or digital scale) should show weight change when a high voltage (AC or DC) is applied. Transformer oils run about 300 to 400 volts per mil dielectric strength. The 15 KV, 50-60 Hz rms (~ 21 KV peak) from a neon sign transformer should be ample. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Two press-lid paint cans head-to-head using a polymer
bolt and spacer at center to hold the lids together, possibly with
water in the cans to ballast them enough to float beneath
an insulating oil surface (in a plastic container sitting on a balance
or digital scale) should show weight change when a high
voltage (AC or DC) is applied.
 
Transformer oils run about 300 to 400 volts per mil dielectric strength.
 
The 15 KV,  50-60 Hz rms (~ 21 KV peak) from a neon sign transformer
should be ample.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 12:19:38 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB2KJLBi001562; Sat, 2 Dec 2006 12:19:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB2KJIlI001528; Sat, 2 Dec 2006 12:19:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 12:19:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=bPE98SlFuIBqJibqODWl6vEzqSEoXwouomZfdOExLP/igqZizNcQLhwVLukZuiBI; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:X-Mailer:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <4646894.1165090280984.JavaMail.root elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 12:11:20 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8bed12ef81015f46ef27192e712d387ad9072ae4777b98cc8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.53 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday December 1, 2006 Status: RO X-Status: -----Forwarded Message----- >From: What's New >Sent: Dec 1, 2006 7:01 PM >To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU >Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday December 1, 2006 > >WHAT?S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 1 Dec 06 Washington, DC > >1. FRAUD IN SCIENCE: SCIENCE MAGAZINE HAS DELIVERED A RESPONSE. It is not >unethical to be wrong. Every scientist will at times be wrong, but we >assume that authors of science papers THINK they got it right. The >rewards of success are so high in certain areas, however, that it must be >tempting to guess the answer without doing the research. We saw it in >2002 with Jan Hendrik Schoen at Bell Labs, and again in 2004 with the stem >cell work of Woo Suk Hwang at Seoul National University. In the Hwang >case, Science, which published the work, immediately retracted the two >papers and began a thorough review of the peer review procedure. The >report urges scientists to give special attention to research results that >are especially visible or influential. Today, in a Science editorial, >Donald Kennedy invites comments. > >2. INCONVENIENT REFUSAL: SO MAYBE SCIENCE TEACHERS LIKE IT HOT. If you >haven?t seen it, Al Gore made a film about global warming. It received >overwhelming endorsement by scientists. On Sunday, the Wash Post ran an >opinion piece by Laurie David, a producer of the film. She thought it was >educational. Of course, so did the Discovery Institute when it >distributed, Unlocking ?The Mystery of Life: The Scientific Case for >Intelligent Design.? When the company that made Inconvenient Truth >offered the National Science Teachers Association 50,000 free DVDs for use >in classrooms, the NSTA said ?no.? I wouldn?t want them pushing Mystery >of Life either, but NSTA seemed more worried about its ?capital campaign? >contributors, including Exxon, Shell and the coal industry. > >3. EXPORTING CREATIONISM: NO LONGER JUST AN AMERICAN PROBLEM? For years >American scientists endured the barbs of colleagues in Europe about >fundamentalist Christianity in the US. A Special Report in Nature this >week warns that creationism is beginning to threaten science in Europe. >Teaching creationism in public schools was outlawed by the Supreme Court >in 1968 in Epperson v. Arkansas. It has been in retreat ever since with >one name change after another. The latest was ?intelligent design.? >Meanwhile, the UK is finding it necessary to teach remedial evolution to >college students. Turks, and Islamic immigrants throughout Europe, cannot >imagine anything happening except by God hand. > >4. THE LIMITS OF GROWTH: BEWARE OF THOSE EXPONENTIALS. Yesterday in the >NY Times, Thomas Homer-Dixon reminded us of a famous wager 26 years ago. >Nobel Prize winner Paul Ehrlich bet the price of certain metals would >increase in a decade as they were depleted. The late Julian Simon, a U. >Maryland professor, bet they would get cheaper as substitutes and new >deposits were found. Simon won. He asked me why the physicists had all >bet with Ehrlich. ?Because, Julian, they understand exponentials,? I >said. Today, Homer-Dixon points out, Ehrlich would win easily. > >THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. >Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the >University of Maryland, but they should be. >--- >Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org >What's New is moving to a different listserver and our >subscription process has changed. To change your subscription >status please visit this link: >http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 12:52:00 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB3Kpdui008315; Sun, 3 Dec 2006 12:51:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB3KpaRm008250; Sun, 3 Dec 2006 12:51:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 12:51:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:x-google-sender-auth; b=O3iCNsB68eIUA57eG3pkIpra+kjdR9T/0Y4i7iIAAUahYm0g7kdytXSMzQDdACGeQqe72WsbP+He54ILmOku+JW0W8/Qgis9w1OpVTw9uVnEyFEvS3j+TCWMZaVICW/PqyATGsK/uGSBOlskq8zuG/d6z6X92EokW4wYePXJJFQ= Message-ID: <357653710612031251v358eeef4l95cd0713d14fe0ae mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 21:51:24 +0100 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden gmail.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Google-Sender-Auth: dd4e36d1ace29139 Resent-Message-ID: <0n2-4C.A.nAC.YjzcFB ultra3.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Strange clouds in Libya Status: RO X-Status: Check this http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&z=9&ll=26.904926,18.138428&spn=1.726681,2.790527&t=h&om=1 It looks like transparent volcanoes but is more likely clouds. What makes the clouds look like this? Could it be some radiation from the underlying volcano? David From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 13:16:06 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB3LFeud028739; Sun, 3 Dec 2006 13:15:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB3LFbv9028710; Sun, 3 Dec 2006 13:15:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 13:15:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Rq9rNjPJRLnfs9FEG96t9ythk0Rw5HgjM7eywDeefpnwcwVWpGFQQyS7OZu+1b4ZgnWVRjlTQvSj2z0bvjCdrQ6N2GQXKq6KMzrhG+U7IY86cC565FycdDx5+QXDEn+byK/9OpkvKY9s0431k8h8d/wjELvOJ1EeOvMVn+qvwY8= Message-ID: <357653710612031315w8eeb583l7b15693cea19074f mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:15:30 +0100 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden gmail.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:OT: Mega-tsunamis are more common.. In-Reply-To: <001e01c714cb$7672cc60$e6027841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_22438_2555907.1165180530947" References: <001e01c714cb$7672cc60$e6027841 xptower> X-Google-Sender-Auth: d9270843c1b7bc3e Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_22438_2555907.1165180530947 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline QSBmcmllbmQgc2FpZCBpdCBjb3VsZCBiZSBlbmdpbmVlcmVkLiBIZSBjYWxsZWQgaXQgZWxlbWVu dGFyeSB3ZWFwb25zLiBUaGV5CndlcmUgZmlyc3QgdGVzdGVkIGluIHRoZSBWb2xnYSByZWdpb24g d2l0aCB3aW5kIHNwZWVkIG9mIDUwMCBrbS9oLgoKSSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIGl0IHNvIHRoYXQgdGhl eSBhbHRlciBwZXJtaXR0aXZpdHkgb2Ygc3BhY2UgYW5kIHRodXMgbWFrZQpncmF2aXR5IG5vbmNv bnNlcnZhdGl2ZS4gVGhpcyBjYXVzZXMgbW90aW9uIGluIHRoZSBhaXIuCgpUaGUgUnVzc2lhbnMg aGF2ZSBhIGZvcm11bGEgZGVzY3JpYmluZyBwZXJtaXR0aXZpdHkuIEl0IHJlbGllcyBvbiB0aGUg bWFzc2VzCm9mIHBhcnRpY2xlcy4gU29tZSBwYXJ0aWNsZSBzbWFsbGVyIHRoYW4gdGhlIGVsZWN0 cm9uIGhhcyB0byBiZSBtYW5pcHVsYXRlZAp0byBhY2hpZXZlIHRoaXMuCgrigqwob21lZ2EsSyk9 MS0ob21lZ2FwZV4yLyjigqwwKG9tZWdhXjItS14yKnZ0YWxwaGFeMikpLShvbWVnYXBiXjIvKOKC rDAob21lZ2EtSyp2MCleMikKKHAuMTU5IGluIGNvbXBlbmRpdW0pCgpCYXNpY2FseSDigqwwIG1p bnVzIGFsbCBjb250cmlidXRpb25zIG9mIHRoZSBjb25zdGl0dWVudHMgb2YgdGhlIG1lZGl1bS4g YgptZWFucyBiZWFtLiBBIGJlYW0gaXMgc2VudCBpbnRvIHRoZSBtZWRpdW0gdG8gYWx0ZXIgcGVy bWl0dGl2aXR5LgoKU2VlIGhvdyBpbmVydGlhbCBtYXNzIGRlcGVuZHMgb24g4oKsIGZvciBleGFt cGxlIFJpY2hhcmQgRmV5bm1hbi4gSW1hZ2luZSB0aGlzCmFzIGluZXJ0aWFsIG1hc3MgYW5kIG1h Z25ldGljIHJlbHVjdGFuY2UgdG8gYmUgdGhlIHNhbWUuIFRodXMgYnkgYWx0ZXJpbmcg4oKsCnRo ZSBtYXNzIGFsdGVycy4gSWYgaW4gYSBwaWVjZSBvZiBhdG1vc3BoZXJlIHRoZSBhaXIgaXMgYmVp bmcgbGlnaHRlciBpdAp3aWxsIHJpc2UsIHRoZXJlIHdpbGwgYmUgd2luZC4KCkRpZCBhbnlvbmUg Z2V0IHRoaXM/IE1heWJlIHRoZSBjbG91ZHMgb2YgTGlieWEgaXMgbWFkZSB0aGUgc2FtZSB3YXku CgpEYXZpZAo= ------=_Part_22438_2555907.1165180530947 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline QSBmcmllbmQgc2FpZCBpdCBjb3VsZCBiZSBlbmdpbmVlcmVkLiBIZSBjYWxsZWQgaXQgZWxlbWVu dGFyeSB3ZWFwb25zLiBUaGV5IHdlcmUgZmlyc3QgdGVzdGVkIGluIHRoZSBWb2xnYSByZWdpb24g d2l0aCB3aW5kIHNwZWVkIG9mIDUwMCBrbS9oLiA8YnI+PGJyPkkgdW5kZXJzdGFuZCBpdCBzbyB0 aGF0IHRoZXkgYWx0ZXIgcGVybWl0dGl2aXR5IG9mIHNwYWNlIGFuZCB0aHVzIG1ha2UgZ3Jhdml0 eSBub25jb25zZXJ2YXRpdmUuIFRoaXMgY2F1c2VzIG1vdGlvbiBpbiB0aGUgYWlyLgo8YnI+PGJy PlRoZSBSdXNzaWFucyBoYXZlIGEgZm9ybXVsYSBkZXNjcmliaW5nIHBlcm1pdHRpdml0eS4gSXQg cmVsaWVzIG9uIHRoZSBtYXNzZXMgb2YgcGFydGljbGVzLiBTb21lIHBhcnRpY2xlIHNtYWxsZXIg dGhhbiB0aGUgZWxlY3Ryb24gaGFzIHRvIGJlIG1hbmlwdWxhdGVkIHRvIGFjaGlldmUgdGhpcy48 YnI+PGJyPuKCrChvbWVnYSxLKT0xLShvbWVnYXBlXjIvKOKCrDAob21lZ2FeMi1LXjIqdnRhbHBo YV4yKSktKG9tZWdhcGJeMi8o4oKsMChvbWVnYS1LKnYwKV4yKSZuYnNwOyAoCnAuMTU5IGluIGNv bXBlbmRpdW0pPGJyPjxicj5CYXNpY2FseSDigqwwIG1pbnVzIGFsbCBjb250cmlidXRpb25zIG9m IHRoZSBjb25zdGl0dWVudHMgb2YgdGhlIG1lZGl1bS4gYiBtZWFucyBiZWFtLiBBIGJlYW0gaXMg c2VudCBpbnRvIHRoZSBtZWRpdW0gdG8gYWx0ZXIgcGVybWl0dGl2aXR5Ljxicj48YnI+U2VlIGhv dyBpbmVydGlhbCBtYXNzIGRlcGVuZHMgb24g4oKsIGZvciBleGFtcGxlIFJpY2hhcmQgRmV5bm1h bi4gSW1hZ2luZSB0aGlzIGFzIGluZXJ0aWFsIG1hc3MgYW5kIG1hZ25ldGljIHJlbHVjdGFuY2Ug dG8gYmUgdGhlIHNhbWUuIFRodXMgYnkgYWx0ZXJpbmcg4oKsIHRoZSBtYXNzIGFsdGVycy4gSWYg aW4gYSBwaWVjZSBvZiBhdG1vc3BoZXJlIHRoZSBhaXIgaXMgYmVpbmcgbGlnaHRlciBpdCB3aWxs IHJpc2UsIHRoZXJlIHdpbGwgYmUgd2luZC4gCjxicj48YnI+RGlkIGFueW9uZSBnZXQgdGhpcz8g TWF5YmUgdGhlIGNsb3VkcyBvZiBMaWJ5YSBpcyBtYWRlIHRoZSBzYW1lIHdheS48YnI+PGJyPkRh dmlkCg== ------=_Part_22438_2555907.1165180530947-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 18:39:45 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB42dIxL000754; Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:39:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB42dFLE000661; Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:39:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:39:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 13:39:06 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.156] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 4 Dec 2006 02:39:06 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra3.eskimo.com id kB42d79V000502 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 30 Nov 2006 02:07:30 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Here is another speculation: > >Maybe only neutrons have gravity. [snip] H2 gas has weight, and it has no neutrons (to speak of). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 18:47:08 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB42km20007236; Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:46:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB42kkOF007213; Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:46:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:46:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: does centripetal vortex create a "free electron" in vortexed water? Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 13:41:35 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <538fa8f10611292304r5e9f957at9160deeb8d94f32b mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10611292304r5e9f957at9160deeb8d94f32b mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.156] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 4 Dec 2006 02:41:35 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra3.eskimo.com id kB42kbYU007064 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Esa Ruoho's message of Thu, 30 Nov 2006 09:04:24 +0200: Hi, Not so sure about water, but adding Li metal to liquid ammonia results in a beautiful deep blue coloring as a consequence of free electrons in the liquid. >hello, does anyone have any data as to how vortexing could create a free >electron (or, free up an electron) in the molecular structure of water? > > >came across this quote (first was speaking with an old man about water's >energy levels and he asked if my vortexeralso frees up an electron in >the water) >"The great scientist Viktor Schauberger was the first to demonstrate what >happens to water when we pump it through pipes under pressure. Coming out of >the ground, Schauberger said, water is "living." It contains an extra >electron in the outer ring, and it is the vortex of naturally moving water >that creates this structure. > >But when pushed through a pipe, although it wants to move in a vortex (as we >can easily demonstrate for ourselves), water is forced into a circular >motion, and this circular movement strips the outer electrons off the water >molecule, creating what's called "unstructured" water. It's still hydrogen >and oxygen, but it lacks a specific electrical charge." >this from http://netmar.com/~maat/archive/dec3/editor.htm > >but honestly.. anyone have any more leads? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 20:24:34 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB44OC5B003846; Sun, 3 Dec 2006 20:24:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB44OAtc003812; Sun, 3 Dec 2006 20:24:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 20:24:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 23:24:34 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 30 Nov 2006 02:07:30 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >> Here is another speculation: >> >> Maybe only neutrons have gravity. > [snip] > H2 gas has weight, and it has no neutrons (to speak of). > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > Ok. New speculation: The electrons and protons have weight only when they form molecules such as H2. Neutrons have weight both when they are free and when they are part of a nucleus. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 21:12:11 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB45Bq7E010009; Sun, 3 Dec 2006 21:11:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB45BoLi009971; Sun, 3 Dec 2006 21:11:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 21:11:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 00:12:01 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: TEEN GOES NUCLEAR He creates fusion in his Oakland Township home In-reply-to: <200611240455.42473.rockcastle lakeside1.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200612040012.01730.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <000901c70e3d$c2d0b480$8c8f603f u5x1p2> <200611240455.42473.rockcastle lakeside1.net> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 24 November 2006 04:55, Standing Bear wrote: > On Wednesday 22 November 2006 08:54, lgarrett wrote: > >dont clik on http : / v/www.fr eep.com/ap ps/pbcs.dll/ar ticle?AI > > D=/20 061 119/NEW S03/6 11190 639 > > Article does not exist, but some hostile app to windows computers > ....might. Notice the presence of a '.dll' file referred to in the URL. I > think websites can function just like a program in many ways using the > software tools available to site crafters. Shpammmers may be at it again. > Checked the art out on the freep.com, which is the website for the > Detroit Free Press here in Michigan in the United States. The Detroit Free > Press is a major paper and a good one generally. I do not think that they > would be part of a scam. The author of the above post appears in my > posting history of over twenty thousand posts just one other time, in May > of this year. Then he replied to one of Mr Spandonk's posts with a > basically uncommented list of URL's to 'visit'. He said then that those > URL's would be 'interesting'. Just thought fellow Vortexians would like to > know. By the way, my mailbox has suddenly started to recieve posts from > punters for shady trades, which I promply file under crooks after checkin > the whole document for content to see if it could be determined where it > was from. It was the usual drivel, gibberish message covering a hidden > HTML payload leading windows users to some dark alley of the 'net to be > mugged. It started right after I replied to a fellow lister. Some of you > might want to run bot checkin software on your boxes to see if some scum > has recruited your machine without your knowledge or consent. > > Standing Bear > > And yes, the probability of a suburban Detroit garage noooke created by a > kid is probably quite a bit less than of a north Korean wahr headd smuggled > there by one of the more than fifty thousand Iraqis that 'immigrated' there > in the last few years. Eating crow on my own post.....post mortem... Another article had a good link. This time from the British 'The Register'. It appears from the TheRegister that the kid actually did something. He created a working Farnsworth fusor replica in his garage using info from fusor.org. Not a self sustaining source, Just another radiation source although the website hopes that someday somebody like that young fella in his garage will actually pull it off. Looks like the bear got himself. Sorry. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 01:23:07 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB49K1GQ013986; Mon, 4 Dec 2006 01:22:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB495hlY031875; Mon, 4 Dec 2006 01:05:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 01:05:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4573E4B9.9070304 usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 03:04:57 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2ddNl.A.0xH.lT-cFB ultra3.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > >Ok. > >New speculation: >The electrons and protons have weight only when they form >molecules such as H2. Neutrons have weight both when they are free >and when they are part of a nucleus. > I don't understand why you would think that protrons wouldn't have weight. Ditto for the electron, but they don't contribute much. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 10:57:33 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB4Iv6ZQ015870; Mon, 4 Dec 2006 10:57:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB4IuwnX015786; Mon, 4 Dec 2006 10:56:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 10:56:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=RcT5aITTggLvuIavVVBhEcHM0XWuzQT4VxcmzKGOXPDEkp8USm+ThAkPwCVgLPQTk8tJE2n369UbkTDawwagt5UjOU+/e1T+iIrXqHQyjijw8N1zQTtUaXj7vmA4Vxh0bbb8YRlDoVMPQ+IsZohmjpPcGoyJtug3YjrBqgx5ceU= ; X-YMail-OSG: GW4UbDQVM1mlKowpClJmhdUUHAv1G_oNorZtP9cve0Cmzaijvz3lJ3te73BMEEa1F7TbqtujxhNneIPVg64RgVvIdge8G5cPb1hk2dUDTauDLac78Rv1gA-- Message-ID: <002a01c717d5$f5105670$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Cc: Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 10:56:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: Interesting News About Steorn Status: O X-Status: Further on the original question raised by Stephen A. Lawrence: > When an electron is accelerated in a nonuniform magnetic field > due to the electron's own (permanent) magnetic dipole, where > does the energy come from? Hal Puthoff has suggested the following: "In a nonuniform magnetic field, the acceleration of the electron due to it's own magnetic field associated with spin parallels the acceleration of a polarizable particle in a nonuniform electric field (so-called dielectrophoresis). The electron (particle) moves so as to reduce the magnetic (electric) field energy by having the electron's (particle's) field cancel the magnetic (electric) field strength. The force is given by the change in field energy F = - grad (field energy). Thus the energy comes from the original distributed field energy which is weakened by the motion of the electron (particle) into a position to provide partial cancellation." Thanks to Hal Puthoff for that input From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 12:50:27 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB4KgUn9014519; Mon, 4 Dec 2006 12:42:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB4KgGa9014310; Mon, 4 Dec 2006 12:42:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 12:42:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 07:42:04 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.156] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 4 Dec 2006 20:42:03 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra3.eskimo.com id kB4Kg5IA014127 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sun, 03 Dec 2006 23:24:34 -0500: Hi, [snip] >New speculation: >The electrons and protons have weight only when they form >molecules such as H2. Neutrons have weight both when they are free >and when they are part of a nucleus. [snip] Since the Sun is mostly a proton electron plasma, it would have nearly no gravitational field according to this premise. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 14:08:26 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB4Lt3KY012590; Mon, 4 Dec 2006 13:57:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB4LZhYZ025407; Mon, 4 Dec 2006 13:35:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 13:35:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 16:35:18 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: <4573E4B9.9070304 usfamily.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> >> >> Ok. >> >> New speculation: >> The electrons and protons have weight only when they form >> molecules such as H2. Neutrons have weight both when they are free >> and when they are part of a nucleus. >> > I don't understand why you would think that protrons wouldn't have > weight. Ditto for the electron, but they don't contribute much. > It can be used to explain and predict weight anomalies. The gravitational mass-density (as distinguished from the inertial mass-density) of a _macroscopic_ body would vary inversely with the distribution of net charge through out the body. Since the weight of a body is equal to the body's gravitational mass-density times its volume multiplied by the gravitational acceleration, the weight of the body will depend on the distribution of charges. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 01:44:54 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB59iVtC032696; Tue, 5 Dec 2006 01:44:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB59iSLb032639; Tue, 5 Dec 2006 01:44:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 01:44:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nUYOVVqbwvwSxqz5TNBhaRY9G16b79vXGWYq02AWG4HP3VfJ7GAgUOkapbVOTxfz; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612259449410 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: jonesb9 pacbell.net Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 02:44:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406d74d4daed4fe9ef07e6c046356c2e37350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.208 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: The Alpha Bet Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII sin theta 1/sin theta 2 = [(uo*eo)/u1*e1)]^1/2 = v1/v2 = v1/c or: sin theta 1/sin theta 2 = N2/N1 IOW, the Index of Refraction of a Photon traveling at c that has turned into an Inertial Mass-Particle Pair. Logically uo = u1, thus N2/N1 = sin theta 1/sin theta 2 = [eo/e1]^1/2 Or Snell's law: sin theta 1 = [eo/e1]^1/2 (sin theta 2) Total Internal Reflection/Self Imposed Boundary Condition for an Inertial Mass-Particle: Snell's Law of Total Internal Reflection: sin theta (critical) = [eo/e1]^1/2 = [1/137.03]^1/2 = alpha^1/2 = 0.08542 Theta = 4.9 degrees. >From this, the Phase velocity in a particle equals c, and the Group velocity = c/137. Or is the Phase Velocity 137 * c? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
sin theta 1/sin theta 2   = [(uo*eo)/u1*e1)]^1/2 = v1/v2 = v1/c
 
or: sin theta 1/sin theta  2 =  N2/N1
 
IOW, the Index of Refraction of a Photon traveling at c that has turned
into an Inertial Mass-Particle Pair.
 
Logically uo = u1,
 
thus N2/N1 = sin theta 1/sin theta 2 = [eo/e1]^1/2
 
Or Snell's law:
 
sin theta 1 = [eo/e1]^1/2  (sin theta 2)
 
Total Internal Reflection/Self Imposed Boundary Condition
for an Inertial Mass-Particle:
 
Snell's Law of Total Internal Reflection:
 
sin theta (critical) = [eo/e1]^1/2 = [1/137.03]^1/2 = alpha^1/2 = 0.08542
 
Theta = 4.9 degrees.
 
From this, the Phase velocity in a particle equals c,
and the Group velocity = c/137. Or is the Phase Velocity 137 * c?
 
Fred
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 01:46:11 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB59jwo1001318; Tue, 5 Dec 2006 01:46:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB59jrNg001260; Tue, 5 Dec 2006 01:45:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 01:45:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45753CB1.4010407 usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 03:32:33 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Another energy machine story Status: RO X-Status: This story just tickles me. I called my friend Phil. The subject of Iraq came up. He opposes the war, I don't believe that we had any alternative. Phil contends that if we had spent the same money on energy development, we'd have energy independence. I think that if the Powers That Be wanted us to have energy independence we'd be energy independent. Phil says that he is going to build an engine generator set that runs on water. I told him that I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for him to get that to work. BLP, and CF I know about, but AFAIK, neither one of those technologies will power themselves let alone generate usable power. He continued by saying that two European companies are in preproduction for a 20 KW magnetic powered generator. I assume that such a machine would involve the use of neodinium, which would explain the spike in price. I mentioned that I'd heard that Magnetic Power, and Stroem, but I haven't heard of either of them being willing or able to demonstrate an operating machine. Nothing has changed in the quarter century that I have been investigating this question. Lots of promise, and some great theories, but the World is still running on combustion based energy. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 04:54:46 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB55oBTU013152; Mon, 4 Dec 2006 22:06:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB55Kjuj025855; Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:20:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:20:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UgYtqzNrO8EOgZwLXEkLescNsN2pnSWo/APJh4Rjqo8Msq0X8ViLsqbjEnUIjBUsvNP583ZHyZ9S/AMyE6JmrcLByOTtdCnT4BZoNiUlSreyvkoe28egru3f18krDWkNp67/gJP8ozV9ikJV8kWjjTB9PEuSyNj7dtCS9FwkvSE= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 19:20:40 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Interesting News About Steorn In-Reply-To: <002a01c717d5$f5105670$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <002a01c717d5$f5105670$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 12/4/06, Jones Beene wrote: > The force is given by the change in > field energy F = - grad (field energy). That's like a, uh, gradient, eh? The same relationship which keeps the orbiting electron from radiating maintains the balance of aligned spin fields . . . the ZPF, IMO . . . I could be wrong. - the 400# gorilla From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 03:20:03 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB6B5541017956; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 03:19:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB5LfJhR024716; Tue, 5 Dec 2006 13:41:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 13:41:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=bnLBpBv0xwDgUcSDMGuOH4Y8iQ7hs5DzSDbS5H+so9CJ4nUPU/Gl27zG1oDYCnMOkeAwt+cwTZsVEuri4LOKfrgZDvDArhDNv5hmVDLvU5NRBdPr5rOlxEKO2JFhky0Ti8HATx/eMG5sUePYTj1+TYOsUxIbaAFkNHzszuGcio8= ; Message-ID: <003101c71888$5f05c120$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 08:13:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <6_7ZxC.A.YBG.1dedFB ultra3.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: Apologies in advance for not being able to trim this post down to a more manageable size, as it is a compilation of prior postings and is still a work-in-progress. In chemistry, *catalysis* is the acceleration (increase in the rate) of a chemical reaction by means of an surface interface or dissolved substance, which is itself not consumed by the overall reaction, or at least is easily reconstituted. In 'chem 101' the student is taught that a catalyst decreases the activation energy gap which must be overcome in a chemical reaction, but cannot increase the net energy available, because the rate of both the forward and the reverse reaction are equally affected. The net free energy change of a reaction is the same whether a catalyst is used or not; the catalyst just makes it easier to activate. At least that is the "mainstream spiel:" zero OU from chemistry ! The SI derived unit for measuring catalytic activity is the "katal," which is moles per second. In a few cases the increase in reaction rate is by a ratio of 10,000,000 to one. Naturally, the free-energy enthusiast has been probing all aspects of this for years, but catalysis 'works both ways' so to avoid the limitation of an "equilibrium" state - immediate changes must be made in the reactants, to preserve a more favorable transitory situation. OK, that is where we stand in general terms going into 2007. But is there looming, the single exception in all of chemistry to the laws of thermodynamics forbidding that a string of complementary or sequential [chemical only] reactions which cannot be gainful ? IOW - in all of nature - if there is any singularity where the thermodynamics of a reversible reaction are very slightly asymmetrical, to the tune of even a fractional eV; which energy might be exploitable by providing a high reaction rate? The idea is that the energy deficit is eventually replenished by either ZPE or the Dirac epo-field, probably in the form of the 6.8 eV ionization potential of virtual Ps. But that is fodder for another day. If there is a lone chemical singularity, it will likely involve both 'autocatalysis' and 'superoxidation,' and to that end, consider the following complex situation, which admittedly contains some "problems", as it is not a refined hypothesis yet. Catalysts, as mentioned, participate in reactions but are not reactants except in "autocatalysis," where the product of a reaction accelerates the same reaction. Naturally if there was even a very slight asymmetry in reversible thermodynamics, then autocatalysis could result in a chemical-only chain reaction - to multiply an imperceptible gain into a useable gain using its own reiterated asymmetry. I suspect that 99% of participants of this forum have written this possibility off as impossible. As had I until recently. OK -the above is the 'preamble' (pre-ramble) and I hope the stage is set for this revision of an old posting on the subject of peroxide electrochemistry, which has been revised slightly. The original title of this was: "242"... 242 is an important number in nature and for alternative-energy schemes, at least when it refers to nanometers. Google "242 nm" and you will get almost 50,000 hits. UV light - ultraviolet radiation at wavelengths smaller than 242 nanometers has the property of instantly splitting molecular oxygen (two atoms bonded together) into atomic oxygen (individual atoms of oxygen) with high efficiency. This particular UV photon has a mass/energy of 5.1 eV. Solar photochemistry (and life on earth) depends on this reaction and the regular ozone cycle - in the upper atmosphere: http://www.ccpo.odu.edu/SEES/ozone/class/Chap_5/5_2.htm In nature, this is the start of a chain of events which functions to keep harmful UV from reaching the earth's surface - but the process can also be "engineered" to occur on demand in a reactor small enough to be carried "under the hood". Biomimicry revisited. It is not efficient to produce UV light from grid electricity, but there are certain surface catalysts, which will operate on O2 in a similar fashion - in order to provide a net energetic effect equal to 5.1 eV, in order to split oxygen. For instance, manganese oxide is the preferred oxygen catalyst for all of organic life. Perhaps it is a singularity in itself. The MnO family operates by shuttling oxygen ions back and forth in its outer shells, and this is possible because of its very large number of facile oxidation "states" -- *eleven in all.* Of particular interest is the transition between the MnO2 and MnO4 states in an acid solution where the effective "band gap" so to speak, is slightly more than the necessary 5.1 eV. The band gap in semiconductors (or energy gap) is the energy difference between the top of the valence band and the bottom of the conduction band. Catalysts bear much similarity to semiconductors in electrochemistry. There is a chain of coordinated events which is necessary - following the moment when an energetically excited oxygen atom has been "unpaired" from the O2, which will get to the point when that energy can be both OU and useful. When the photon of 242 nm or less [or band gap] encounters molecular oxygen and splits it, either unpaired atom will quickly bond with other molecules to form three-oxygen molecule, ozone - O3. Following this - in the right circumstance (proximity to water) O3 will interact and immediately form hydrogen peroxide - HOOH - which is relatively more stable than ozone, but relatively less-potent as an oxidizer. H2O2 is one of the most powerful oxidizers known - stronger than chlorine but not as strong as ozone; having an oxidation potential of 1.8 eV versus 2.1 eV for ozone. Otherwise, of course, ozone would not combine with water so readily in order to form peroxide. That reaction is known as *superoxidation* and can be speeded up greatly though catalysis. Superoxidation is the key to finding a thermodynamic asymmetry. However - and also through catalysis but employing the very same surface catalyst, H2O2 does not *go back* to ozone ! as expected but instead will be converted into two hydroxyl radicals (-OH) each with far higher reactivity (2.8 eV) then the progenitor molecule. That part of the chain of events is potentially gainful, and depends solely on catalysis which is not-exactly reversible. Therein lies the small window of opportunity for finding OU in water-air electrochemistry, with or without solar UV light. The bottom line is that the 2.1 eV oxidation potential of one ozone molecule is converted into two 2.8 eV (O.P.) hydroxyl radicals, for a net gain of 1.4 eV by going though the circuitous route of peroxide catalysis. The initial 2.1 eV oxidation potential ozone required a 5.1 eV photon and so was not at all gainful. In fact the COP was surprisingly low for that step. But the original photon, at least in theory, can give us two free oxygen atoms, not one, and IF both of them combine into two molecules of ozone, and then both ozone molecules then form two HOOH molecules ... which are catalytically split - then four hydroxyl radicals will be the result [on paper] and consequently the potential COP of the entire reaction could be as high as: COP = 11.2/5.1 = 2.27 Pretty significant, but admittedly this will never happen so cleanly.... and admittedly oxidation potential is NOT exactly convertible into net energy directly. Nevertheless, this reversible chemical situation, involving superoxidation and catalytic "see-sawing" between: H2O +O <--> HOOH appears to be a singularity. Arguably, it is the only situation in all of nature where one can show a potential "net gain" in a sequence of probable reversible reactions, which gain is due to catalysis [in a way] but in which the reverse-catalysis is not favored over another branching possibility [and premised on everything in the intermediary stages happening at high efficiency]. Normally the rule of thumb about catalysis will hold - that is, that catalysis cannot supply "net energy" but can only speed up the *reaction rate* in situation where there are energy gaps, or entropic deficits BUT in this one instance, superoxidation, the hydroxyl radical is so favored [and ubiquitous in nature] despite its enormous oxidation potential, that it seems unique. A singularity? (certainly a mouthful of word-salad, and before breakfast even ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 04:01:11 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB6C0Ad1012215; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 04:01:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB6BcYFE019453; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 03:38:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 03:38:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 01:21:32 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sun, 03 Dec 2006 23:24:34 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >> New speculation: >> The electrons and protons have weight only when they form >> molecules such as H2. Neutrons have weight both when they are free >> and when they are part of a nucleus. > [snip] > Since the Sun is mostly a proton electron plasma, it would have nearly no > gravitational field according to this premise. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > Good point. However, I also make distinction between gravitational mass and inertial mass. The sun would still have plenty of inertial mass, and it is this inertial mass that attracts (accelerates) the planets. You might ask, isn't the function of gravitational mass to attract? This answer is no. Gravitational mass reflects a body's indifference to having its gravitational acceleration impeded by another body. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 04:01:21 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB6C0Ad3012215; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 04:01:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB6BcRJ5019422; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 03:38:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 03:38:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 17:14:46 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sun, 03 Dec 2006 23:24:34 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >> New speculation: >> The electrons and protons have weight only when they form >> molecules such as H2. Neutrons have weight both when they are free >> and when they are part of a nucleus. > [snip] > Since the Sun is mostly a proton electron plasma, it would have nearly no > gravitational field according to this premise. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > Good point. However, I also make distinction between gravitational mass and inertial mass. The sun would still have plenty of inertial mass, and it is this inertial mass that attracts (accelerates) the planets. You might ask, isn't the function of gravitational mass to attract? This answer is no. Gravitational mass reflects a body's indifference to having its gravitational acceleration impeded by another body. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 05:26:01 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB6DMU9U007816; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 05:25:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB6DGQKO004004; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 05:16:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 05:16:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=M4CZVkOgZ/2TEkHAThQ84c+hfb1SHQqZKO+n81WHKbMTUc2N6NQzGSAAFrxCStYJ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061236125730470 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 05:57:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940039396e217aa41fab3cba338240e96a8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.174 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Polarized Vacuum, Light Speed And Nuclear Remediation Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The "Spin" in all particles, mvr = h/2(pi) says that circling velocity v is very close to lightspeed c so that the relativistic gamma 1/[1- (v^2/c^2)]^1/2 is pushing toward infinity at around 10^18 or more, yet by it's clock time is standing still. IOW with a gamma of 10^18 when the particle's clock measures one second, our clock will tick off 10^18 seconds or about 32 Billion Years. Surely, electromagnetic fields can exert a change in the aether-vacuum enough to slightly alter the spin/gamma of a nucleon (or it's sub-particles) and affect the half-life of a radioisotope. Fred Bill Beaty's note on William A. Barker's patent (US 5,076,971) for using a Van de Graaff to lower radioactivity: http://amasci.com/freenrg/barker.txt "This paper describes a method for treating a small radioactive mineral sample so as to make it lose its radioactivity. Mainstream science would predict that such a thing is not possible, since it involves changing the half life of radioactive atoms, and the half-life is thought to be inalterable." This paper is for your information only. The process described involves dangerous high voltages and radioactive substances. It should only be performed by persons skilled in safe handling of both of these. - Bill B. ........................................................................................... ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The "Spin" in all particles, mvr = h/2(pi) says that circling
velocity v is very close to lightspeed c so that the relativistic
gamma 1/[1- (v^2/c^2)]^1/2 is pushing toward infinity at
around 10^18 or more, yet by it's clock time is standing
still.
IOW with a gamma of 10^18 when the particle's clock measures one second,
our clock will tick off 10^18 seconds or about 32 Billion Years.
 
Surely, electromagnetic fields can exert a change in the aether-vacuum
enough to slightly alter the spin/gamma of a nucleon (or it's sub-particles)
and affect the half-life of a radioisotope.
 
Fred
 
Bill Beaty's note on William A. Barker's patent (US 5,076,971)
for using a Van de Graaff to lower radioactivity:
 
 
"This paper describes a method for treating a small radioactive mineral
sample so as to make it lose its radioactivity.  Mainstream science would
predict that such a thing is not possible, since it involves changing the
half life of radioactive atoms, and the half-life is thought to be
inalterable."

This paper is for your information only.  The process described involves
dangerous high voltages and radioactive substances.  It should only be
performed by persons skilled in safe handling of both of these.

- Bill B.
...........................................................................................
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 08:48:41 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB6Gj4vq027075; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 08:48:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB6GcVTb022592; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 08:38:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 08:38:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=s0q6bJn6R1rK6RREmOxL6Ba6fLvCXURLCkPjmjdbspsUhVLQKwBJP0ko/qFPvpnN; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006123611521449 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 04:52:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400533ed78927e2b47348eadab025ba2de350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.174 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Flatulence forces emergency landing Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Makes scents,doesn't it? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16064706/ ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Makes scents,doesn't it?
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 09:30:51 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB6HU40I007666; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:30:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB6HGOxN023639; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:16:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:16:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:X-Priority:Content-Type; b=bnSGrAV8jik13FO6TlLovSxtBfIZ6f6uRXZ7rok4dIO5NcU9m6mQpltwBnZ2xmy9pK0W/5sz06vmOu3JgWJ0b9E3mT//KN10oKKFzU2Jzu7gxgrT77Zujy7hRZq/Ar9xQ1VyjS5597voIhvT0gdfyTTg2bNnyiH0HJBAuZBYOv0= ; X-YMail-OSG: UOmQ8KcVM1lYg.gaxIgPzNEhrxXn2mBPGqXiQxFb0uhwq_FzgxxKTpA3w30JGuFINIt.iwLDlEJLFITkaff7kSHjWR1iwJsmKqZWRNRpUwdvM.DlqkEyn0T3EXECMiccNuyy7iju9IghmV0- Message-ID: <4576F486.6060701 pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 08:49:10 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (Windows/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex X-Priority: 3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040105010501010005060101" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040105010501010005060101 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looks like the Vo-server was down yesterday, as two-day old messages appeared this morning and at least one post which needed correction is still apparently lost in cyberspace... One always suspects some kind of high-level tampering when this happens ... not that anyone with good sense would pay serious attention to this forum, but still... it makes one revert to using abbreviations. I suspect that "neutron" is some kind of flag for the snoops, and very few of our Corporals stationed in the German-message-screening-brigade have good sense but ... anyway... Neutrons - if they could ever be produced 'on demand' are arguably the most valuable commodity on earth. If we posit that Avagadro's number of them will weigh about a gram, then a kilogram could be worth $500,000,000 or more. More on the assumptions behind that ball-park calculation later. For now, the question is: are there any easy ways to produce them in milligram quantities per second, on demand? Many ductile materials, even certain steels, become frangible when subject to cold. Perhaps a simple elongated nucleus is similar. At the sub-angstrom level, a nucleus such as deuterium could become *less* stable at lower temperatures in a magnetic field - but also with a narrow range of overlapping RF (at a resonant frequency to either the proton or neutron). Obviously if this happened, NMR techniques, such as are used in Medical diagnotiscs, would show some anomaly at low temperature. It is an open question as to whether or not anyone has actually performed NMR on deuterated materials at cryogenic temperatures, close to absolute zero - and then had the foresight to look for free neutrons. It would be interesting to know. Begin with what we know or suspect about the D2 nucleus - in a blown-up mental image: it is a highly elongated nucleus, similar to a "barbell" of two spheres separated by at least one unit of diameter of either sphere. One end of that barbell is slightly heavier, so there is built-in axial instability anyway, and if we now substitute for the bar (connection between the two spheres) the mental conception of a "spring" (gluon-spring?) so that there is also a constant oscillation between the two - then we are getting close to the needed level of imagery. We want to slow the oscillation down at the same time as we increase the amplitude. Now - we add that the info that both of these two ends have a magnetic moment, but a significantly different moment, and a significantly different NMR resonance. At a certain level of magnetic field, then (say the field provided by a permanent magnet) the two components of the sucleus will being to mutually align but not quite. When one end of the barbell is stimulated at a resonant RF - will the "bar" - i.e. the gluon spring, as it were - ever be extended further (either axially or in another vector) than the reach of the strong force (which BTW is not much further afield in this nucleus than the furthest extremity of its normal elongation) ? Inquiring minds want to know... Anybody got a suggestion on how to finagle some spare time on an NMR machine? Jones --------------040105010501010005060101 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Looks like the Vo-server was down yesterday, as two-day old messages appeared this morning and at least one post which needed correction is still apparently lost in cyberspace... One always suspects some kind of high-level tampering when this happens ... not that anyone with good sense would pay serious attention to this forum, but still... it makes one revert to using abbreviations. I suspect that "neutron" is some kind of flag for the snoops, and very few of our Corporals stationed in the German-message-screening-brigade have good sense but ... anyway...

Neutrons - if they could ever be produced 'on demand' are arguably the most valuable commodity on earth. If we posit that Avagadro's number of them will weigh about a gram, then a kilogram could be worth $500,000,000 or more. More on the assumptions behind that ball-park calculation later. For now, the question is: are there any easy ways to produce them in milligram quantities per second, on demand?

Many ductile materials, even certain steels, become frangible when subject to cold. Perhaps a simple elongated nucleus is similar.

At the sub-angstrom level, a nucleus such as deuterium could become *less* stable at lower temperatures in a magnetic field - but also with a narrow range of overlapping RF (at a resonant frequency to either the proton or neutron). Obviously if this happened, NMR techniques, such as are used in Medical diagnotiscs, would show some anomaly at low temperature. It is an open question as to whether or not anyone has actually performed NMR on deuterated materials at cryogenic temperatures, close to absolute zero - and then had the foresight to look for free neutrons. It would be interesting to know.

Begin with what we know or suspect about the D2 nucleus - in a blown-up mental image: it is a highly elongated nucleus, similar to a "barbell" of two spheres separated by at least one unit of diameter of either sphere. One end of that barbell is slightly heavier, so there is built-in axial instability anyway, and if we now substitute for the bar (connection between the two spheres) the mental conception of a "spring" (gluon-spring?) so that there is also a constant oscillation between the two - then we are getting close to the needed level of imagery. We want to slow the oscillation down at the same time as we increase the amplitude.

Now - we add that the info that both of these two ends have a magnetic moment, but a significantly different moment, and a significantly different NMR resonance. At a certain level of magnetic field, then (say the field provided by a permanent magnet) the two components of the sucleus will being to mutually align but not quite. When one end of the barbell is stimulated at a resonant RF - will the "bar" - i.e. the gluon spring, as it were - ever be extended further (either axially or in another vector) than the reach of the strong force (which BTW is not much further afield in this nucleus than the furthest extremity of its normal elongation) ?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Anybody got a suggestion on how to finagle some spare time on an NMR machine?

Jones
--------------040105010501010005060101-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 12:03:14 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB6JxtZ4017247; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 12:02:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB6JvUEd015525; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:57:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:57:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:56:26 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The Alpha Bet In-reply-to: <410-220061236154713258 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <8XCnIB.A.UyD.YCydFB ultra3.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >> I thought the product of phase and group velocities had to be c^2? > > Only if they are equal. The phase velocity can become infinite depending on > the > angle of incidence of a wave on a surface. Take a stroll down to the beach. > :-) > > Fred Like this? http://web.ncf.ca/eo200/dynamics/beach.jpg Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 16:30:05 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB70RhIU024490; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 16:29:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB6NjjE8015813; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 15:45:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 15:45:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45772B50.9030104 usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:42:56 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Another energy machine story References: <000e01c71876$a3b871d0$27027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <000e01c71876$a3b871d0$27027841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > > Thomas wrote.. > > Phil contends that if > we had spent the same money on energy development, we'd have energy > independence. I think that if the Powers That Be wanted us to have > energy independence we'd be energy independent. > > Howdy Thomas, > > One must understand there has been an irrevocable change since WW2. > Now the focus is on melding and merging the world populace in phases. > We are somewhere between the 1st and 2nd phase which can be described > as socio market spheres like UCM and NAFTA. Energy is one of the major > components for the success of this planning. It is being used both as > a triggering mechanism and a lure. > So Richard, how many steps do you think that there are? I think that we are nearing the end of the road. > The US can be energy independent when you think about it. All that's > necessary is to convert from autos getting 20 mpg to 100 mpg and turn > off all the lights at night. Ask yourself what is preventing this and > why an energy policy has not been made. > I'm reminded of the E85 vehicle not being able to burn methanol, which could be made from coal. Yesterday I noticed that the top management at GM got rid of that meddlesome trouble maker, Kurt Kirkorian who finished liquidating his stock this week. > It's because it does not serve the interests of the players in the > great game. The SD's like Buffett may appear as guiding the economy > but the real power lies in the hands of the people guiding the > bureaucracy inside the beltway. > > The Powers That Be are invisible. Except to those of us who follow > their activities. > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 18:19:16 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB72Ixfo017452; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 18:19:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB72IuP4017410; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 18:18:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 18:18:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001701c719a1$659f5b80$a3027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <000e01c71876$a3b871d0$27027841 xptower> Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Another energy machine story Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 19:45:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote.. In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Tue, 5 Dec 2006 08:06:58 -0600: Hi Richard, [snip] >One must understand there has been an irrevocable change since WW2. Now the >focus is on melding and merging the world populace in phases. We are >somewhere between the 1st and 2nd phase which can be described as socio >market spheres like UCM and NAFTA. Energy is one of the major components >for the success of this planning. It is being used both as a triggering >mechanism and a lure. [snip] It appears you have been reading the Club of Rome report. :) Regards Howdy Robin, No need to read the Club of Rome report in depth, only follow the financial news such as.. The Bank of New York ( formed by Alexander Hamilton back in the 1780's) and Mellon Bank ( 1880's CarnegieMellon) announced they merged to form NYB-Mellon. Not much news there until you study their asset base... now the largest on earth... 22 TRILLION bucks. Stop and think a minute and consider that WalMart, Microsoft and GE couldn't manage their business without a resource like NYB-Mellon to handle the amount of cash that flows across the desk every day. Actually, the Chinese have to rely on them for advice because the mind boggling amount of business that China generates acroos the globe on a daily basis. It takes knowhow that few organizations possess on this magnitude. Ask yourself how an organization can manage that huge amount of resources and assets without having a game plan... Which means the Club of Rome is only a component of so huge a business. Conspiracy theorists are rampant.. but the real power controls conspiracies, they don' let conspiracies control them. Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 20:05:38 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB745GYO013196; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 20:05:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB744xY7012984; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 20:04:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 20:04:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Another energy machine story Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:04:44 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000e01c71876$a3b871d0$27027841 xptower> <001701c719a1$659f5b80$a3027841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001701c719a1$659f5b80$a3027841 xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 7 Dec 2006 04:04:44 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra3.eskimo.com id kB744jgO012800 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Wed, 6 Dec 2006 19:45:37 -0600: Hi, [snip] >It appears you have been reading the Club of Rome report. :) >Regards [snip] >Ask yourself how an organization can manage that huge amount of resources >and assets without having a game plan... Which means the Club of Rome is >only a component of so huge a business. Conspiracy theorists are rampant.. >but the real power controls conspiracies, they don' let conspiracies control >them. >Richard The report of The Club of Rome is real, and was always intended to be completely serious. No conspiracy theory involved. Otherwise I agree with you completely. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 21:28:08 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB75RN5V026543; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 21:27:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB74ZKWQ007983; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 20:35:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 20:35:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:35:02 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 7 Dec 2006 04:35:01 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra3.eskimo.com id kB74Z4fr007833 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Mon, 04 Dec 2006 17:14:46 -0500: Hi Harry, [snip] >However, I also make distinction between gravitational >mass and inertial mass. > >The sun would still have plenty of inertial mass, and it is >this inertial mass that attracts (accelerates) the planets. > >You might ask, isn't the function of gravitational mass to attract? >This answer is no. Gravitational mass reflects a body's indifference >to having its gravitational acceleration impeded by another body. [snip] I'm sorry, but I can make no sense whatever out of this. Perhaps you could put it in other words? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 21:28:29 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB75RN5X026543; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 21:28:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB74Xr4g007114; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 20:33:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 20:33:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: just Catin' around... Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:33:43 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000901c71820$ec31df60$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <000901c71820$ec31df60$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 7 Dec 2006 04:33:42 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra3.eskimo.com id kB74Xivl007016 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 4 Dec 2006 19:53:27 -0800: Hi Jones, [snip] >Now all of this makes me ponder - why isn't R. Mills talking about >this interstellar situation and its likely aftermath: i.e. the >attraction of H3+ and Hy- and the likelihood that a tetrahedron of >the two ions would form -- and with almost a covalent-strength >bond, (probably more), it should be very stable. Not to mention >weird. According to Mills the second electron in hydrinohydride has the (very nearly) same radius as the first, so a collision with either a bare proton of H3+ is likely to simply result in neutralization, forming in a hydrino molecule. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 21:54:39 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB6EZ4Qb003914; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 06:42:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB6ELrPn026547; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 06:21:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 06:21:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The Alpha Bet Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:27:29 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-2200612259449410 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-2200612259449410 earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.156] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 6 Dec 2006 03:27:29 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra3.eskimo.com id kB6ELl18026439 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Tue, 5 Dec 2006 02:44:09 -0700: Hi Fred, [snip] >From this, the Phase velocity in a particle equals c, >and the Group velocity = c/137. Or is the Phase Velocity 137 * c? [snip] I thought the product of phase and group velocities had to be c^2? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 21:56:59 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB6H6vnJ015322; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:07:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB6GrNr0001334; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 08:53:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 08:53:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nFuZGpVol2AlpkzPTh3iklSQdrC7o8VFWoVNQK9Ym8hdmNR5tuWivYlWDHCGJRBS; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061236154713258 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The Alpha Bet Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 08:47:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b188cef7d55fc641872de6db86d60f5d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.45 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > I thought the product of phase and group velocities had to be c^2? Only if they are equal. The phase velocity can become infinite depending on the angle of incidence of a wave on a surface. Take a stroll down to the beach. :-) Fred > [Original Message] > From: Robin van Spaandonk > To: > Date: 12/6/2006 7:47:18 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The Alpha Bet > > In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Tue, 5 Dec 2006 02:44:09 -0700: > Hi Fred, > [snip] > >From this, the Phase velocity in a particle equals c, > >and the Group velocity = c/137. Or is the Phase Velocity 137 * c? > [snip] > I thought the product of phase and group velocities had to be c^2? > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 21:58:54 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB6CCaAu021423; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 04:15:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB6CAqm6019462; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 04:10:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 04:10:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Magnetic effect on water Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:37:27 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9gecn2hp1ghb89r5vsmtjoli0hn23vhubp 4ax.com> References: <000c01c70983$3d8dd6e0$0100007f xptower> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.156] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 6 Dec 2006 03:37:27 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra3.eskimo.com id kB6CAY0n019234 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to R Stiffler's message of Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:06:18 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Blank>>We were able to drop out some white powder precipitate one a single >occasion some time back. >>>We had forgotten to turn off the test unit over the lunch hour. Never >>>able to reproduce the event in our steel test tank. The municipal source >of our water supply could >>>have had been hypo-chlorinated that day... or some chemical agent >>>to reduce manganese.. or visa-verse. Using a plexiglas tank with aluminum >frame and municipal >>>chlorinated water would occasionally produce the precipitate and severely >oxidize the aluminum. > >R.C. > >I have not duplicated you setup, yet I have never seem Cl released as a >White precipitate? If chlorine in the water oxidized the Al, you might get a white Al compound as precipitate (chlorides, oxides, hydroxides, aluminates, or a mixture). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 22:02:28 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB5407vj002995; Mon, 4 Dec 2006 20:40:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB53ricQ030679; Mon, 4 Dec 2006 19:53:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 19:53:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=aINAfj/ZCSoEo51xjCEgmBvVUVaqcnUXkpW/EtuRU3oQZ4F4051eDm0pG7zuzC26KTp51XeLLI31MRnOf3xvSlgjuxb3GogijhEsI4j3V11ZJ8N7U2btGXjt/Xv4iphIRg7zpu0YQUaW9Pzp0uZPpmwi/T1HLKj3b/obRqE+8Xg= ; X-YMail-OSG: PA1XOX4VM1lmyI.0LG8aTMGm2m9nUwf47_4yTshHoBfLe34mw87XaU_UaXn1KLkQba.Dw.HYkU2slhJPxT5Ljki2PgKRfhciJdn7XfsBK6DSZCS9_.CPbA-- Message-ID: <000901c71820$ec31df60$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 19:53:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: just Catin' around... Status: O X-Status: Just catin' around the Galaxy with Douglas... Want to ponder something light but ... err... ponderous? ...like what is the most abundant cation is the universe. Hint: for those not already in a catatonic state, i.e. glued to the boob-tube, this may be a trick question. To make a short answer long - it could be the "protonated molecular hydrogen ion," or H3+ as it is known - and it is either the most or one of the most abundant ions in the universe, given that free protons are not very stable. There is probably more of it "out there" than bare protons but I can find no authoritative reference for that. Any reference over 10 years old, in this field, will likely not be authoritative. H3+ is stable in the interstellar medium, due to the low temperature and low density of interstellar space, and also the apparent comparative lack of available anions. I say "apparent" because there seems to be a charge asymmetry there. Now ... moving onto something which will make many in the mainstream of Fissix go totally catatonic with no need for TV... consider the controversial whiz, R. Mills, who has proposed that just such a stable ion, an anion known as hydrino-hydride - "might be" as populous, or even more populous, in the interstellar medium than the protonated molecular hydrogen ion, who knows? As we all suspect, however, there is a pretty strong attraction, even in interstellar space, between cations and anions. Does this diminish the probability that Hy- is abundant? To find out, I have been googling the usual suspects but have not come up with a definitive answer from anything which BLP has published in text form, but there is this lone BLP "flash" animation item for H3+ ... yet seemingly without additional documentation ... http://www.blacklightpower.com/FLASH/H3Plus.swf Now all of this makes me ponder - why isn't R. Mills talking about this interstellar situation and its likely aftermath: i.e. the attraction of H3+ and Hy- and the likelihood that a tetrahedron of the two ions would form -- and with almost a covalent-strength bond, (probably more), it should be very stable. Not to mention weird. ... just one more thing the cat drug-in ... but it does get curiouser and curiouser, should this species decay into Helium somehow ... and should we ever need a hypothesis to explain why there appears to be more helium "out there" than there should be... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 22:04:56 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB6IL0vu000872; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:27:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB6HsoFR002339; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:54:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:54:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001f01c7195f$8c461860$21027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:54:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C7192D.411C1290" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: [VO] Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C7192D.411C1290 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001C_01C7192D.411C1290" ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C7192D.411C1290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. Looks like the Vo-server was down yesterday, as two-day old messages = appeared this morning and at least one post which needed correction is = still apparently lost in cyberspace... One always suspects some kind of = high-level tampering when this happens ... not that anyone with good = sense would pay serious attention to this forum, but still... it makes = one revert to using abbreviations. I suspect that "neutron" is some kind = of flag for the snoops, and very few of our Corporals stationed in the = German-message-screening-brigade have good sense but ... anyway Howdy Jones, Internet problems.. not just the vortex group , but a host of hosts.. went down.. "ghostly = hosts". I used to think it was a huge conspiracy until I considered the reality = of human nature.. Now I am convinced it is a matter of the blind leading = the blind. Liked you info on H2O2 and ozone.. we have a dickens of a time trying to = get ozone gas to mix in water.. the hard headed stuff just wants to = off-gas. However, if there are people in Dime Box Texas that know how to = mix gunpowder with whiskey , we shouldn't fret about it. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C7192D.411C1290 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..
 
Looks like the Vo-server was down yesterday, as = two-day old=20 messages appeared this morning and at least one post which needed = correction is=20 still apparently lost in cyberspace... One always suspects some kind of=20 high-level tampering when this happens ... not that anyone with good = sense would=20 pay serious attention to this forum, but still... it makes one revert to = using=20 abbreviations. I suspect that "neutron" is some kind of flag for the = snoops, and=20 very few of our Corporals stationed in the = German-message-screening-brigade have=20 good sense but ... anyway
 
Howdy Jones,
Internet problems..
not just the vortex group , but a host of hosts.. = went down..=20 "ghostly hosts".
I used to think it was a huge conspiracy until I = considered=20 the reality of human nature.. Now I am convinced it is a matter of the = blind=20 leading the blind.
 
Liked you info on H2O2 and ozone.. we have a dickens = of a time=20 trying to get ozone gas to mix in water.. the hard headed stuff just = wants to=20 off-gas. However, if there are people in Dime Box Texas that know how to = mix=20 gunpowder with whiskey , we shouldn't fret about it.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C7192D.411C1290-- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C7192D.411C1290 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001a01c7195f$8bb37550$21027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C7192D.411C1290-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 22:11:04 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB6B5543017956; Wed, 6 Dec 2006 03:19:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB5E7W0t021155; Tue, 5 Dec 2006 06:07:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 06:07:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000e01c71876$a3b871d0$27027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Another energy machine story Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 08:06:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C71844.57F11A90"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C71844.57F11A90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C71844.57FBC8F0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C71844.57FBC8F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Thomas wrote.. Phil contends that if=20 we had spent the same money on energy development, we'd have energy=20 independence. I think that if the Powers That Be wanted us to have=20 energy independence we'd be energy independent. Howdy Thomas, One must understand there has been an irrevocable change since WW2. Now = the focus is on melding and merging the world populace in phases. We are = somewhere between the 1st and 2nd phase which can be described as socio = market spheres like UCM and NAFTA. Energy is one of the major components = for the success of this planning. It is being used both as a triggering = mechanism and a lure. Forget the wealth gained by the few from petro sales. Like the stock = market, it is being allowed because it serves the purpose. You may = consider the " swinging di*ks" (SD's) of Wall Street and big petro as = expendable. Keep your eyes on Putin. Watch his tactics. Notice he = permitted a few Oligs to gain much before he had them jailed. The US can be energy independent when you think about it. All that's = necessary is to convert from autos getting 20 mpg to 100 mpg and turn = off all the lights at night. Ask yourself what is preventing this and = why an energy policy has not been made. It's because it does not serve the interests of the players in the = great game. The SD's like Buffett may appear as guiding the economy but = the real power lies in the hands of the people guiding the bureaucracy = inside the beltway. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C71844.57FBC8F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
Thomas wrote..
 
Phil contends that if
we had spent the same money on energy=20 development, we'd have energy
independence. I think that if the = Powers That=20 Be wanted us to have
energy independence we'd be energy=20 independent.

Howdy Thomas,

One must understand there has been an irrevocable change since = WW2. Now=20 the focus is on melding and merging the world populace in phases. We are = somewhere between the 1st and 2nd phase which can be described as socio = market=20 spheres like UCM and NAFTA. Energy is one of the major components for = the=20 success of this planning. It is being used both as a triggering = mechanism and a=20 lure.

Forget the wealth gained by the few from petro sales. Like the stock = market,=20 it is being allowed because it serves the purpose. You may consider the = "=20 swinging di*ks" (SD's) of Wall Street and big petro as expendable. Keep = your=20 eyes on Putin. Watch his tactics. Notice he permitted a few Oligs to = gain much=20 before he had them jailed.

The US can be energy independent when you think about it. = All=20 that's necessary is to convert from autos getting 20 mpg to 100 mpg and = turn off=20 all the lights at night. Ask yourself what is preventing this and = why an=20 energy policy has not been made.

 It's because it does not serve the interests of the = players in the=20 great game. The SD's like Buffett may appear as guiding the economy but = the real=20 power lies in the hands of the people guiding the=20 bureaucracy inside the beltway.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C71844.57FBC8F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C71844.57F11A90 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c71876$a1352250$27027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C71844.57F11A90-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 04:34:50 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB7CYM7s015833; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 04:34:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB7CYGwD015767; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 04:34:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 04:34:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Az6MKQ8ML4OoXHJjbq47UUvQRSujssTwQ5UymLM3zWnIap+6spokWxTvcNx6wuVr; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006124712341472 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 05:34:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94009ef7d201a2682635e6978ba8b6e3009350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.82 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: Re: Going Van de Graaff Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber Sent: 12/7/2006 5:31:26 AM Subject: Re: Going Van de Graaff In order to get around working with potentially lethal 200,000 volt power supplies I ordered a 200 KV Van de Graaff from Edmunds Scientific, http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3070264 An Acculab VIC 10 Kg (+/- 1.0 gram res) digital scale at a discount store, http://www.balances.com/ and a 1.0 lb 400 watt Inverter to work off 8 "D batteries"from InvertersRus, http://www.invertersrus.com/ and heavy gauge aluminum foil from the grocery store to use off the roll as needed, on top of the Styrofoam in place of earth ground. This way using Styrofoam cups, packing scraps, sheets-blocks the Van de Graaff can be totally isolated-floated above ground on the Acculab, or it can be floated and the experiments floated on top of the scale. The discharge wand would be handy, but I didn't order it yet. http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3032272 With a 17.15 cm diameter sphere the capacitance is 4(pi)eo*0.01715/2 = 9.54E-13 farads and can store 1/2 C*V^2 = 0.02 joules at 200 KV which is adequate for looking at weight loss of capacitors or half-life effects on radioisotopes with high fields. For less than $450.00 USD I'm ready to roll when the itch strikes. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 12/7/2006 5:31:26 AM
Subject: Re: Going Van de Graaff

In order to get around working with potentially lethal 200,000 volt
power supplies I ordered a 200 KV  Van de Graaff from
Edmunds Scientific,
 
 
An Acculab VIC 10 Kg (+/- 1.0 gram res)
digital scale at a discount store,
 
 
and a 1.0 lb 400 watt Inverter to
work off 8 "D batteries"from InvertersRus,
 
 
and heavy gauge aluminum
foil from the grocery store to use off the roll as needed,
on top of the Styrofoam in place of earth ground.
 
This way using Styrofoam cups, packing scraps, sheets-blocks
the Van de Graaff can be totally isolated-floated above ground
on the Acculab, or it can be floated and the experiments floated
on top of the scale. The discharge wand would be handy, but
I didn't order it yet.
 
 
With a 17.15 cm diameter sphere the capacitance is 4(pi)eo*0.01715/2
= 9.54E-13 farads and can store 1/2 C*V^2 = 0.02 joules at 200 KV
which is adequate for looking at weight loss of capacitors or
half-life effects on radioisotopes with high fields.
 
For less than $450.00 USD I'm ready to roll when the itch strikes.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 07:27:09 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB7FPmON008599; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 07:25:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB7FPiep008544; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 07:25:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 07:25:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01f201c71a13$edee59b0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22006124712341472 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:25:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra3.eskimo.com id kB7FPO0o008249 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff Status: O X-Status: > potentially lethal 200,000 volt Hi Fred, 20mJ is only between "perceptible sensation " and "definite shock". It takes 10,000mJ to die it seems. http://www.jci.co.uk/Electrostatics/Wshop-04.pdf Discharge Response: energy(mJ) 1mJ perceptible sensation 10mJ definite shock 100mJ unpleasant shock 1,000mJ severe shock, muscular 10,000mJ possibly lethal shock Good experiments! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 1:34 PM Subject: [Vo]: FW: Re: Going Van de Graaff > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Frederick Sparber > Sent: 12/7/2006 5:31:26 AM > Subject: Re: Going Van de Graaff > > > In order to get around working with potentially lethal 200,000 volt > power supplies I ordered a 200 KV Van de Graaff from > Edmunds Scientific, > > http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3070264 > > An Acculab VIC 10 Kg (+/- 1.0 gram res) > digital scale at a discount store, > > http://www.balances.com/ > > and a 1.0 lb 400 watt Inverter to > work off 8 "D batteries"from InvertersRus, > > http://www.invertersrus.com/ > > and heavy gauge aluminum > foil from the grocery store to use off the roll as needed, > on top of the Styrofoam in place of earth ground. > > This way using Styrofoam cups, packing scraps, sheets-blocks > the Van de Graaff can be totally isolated-floated above ground > on the Acculab, or it can be floated and the experiments floated > on top of the scale. The discharge wand would be handy, but > I didn't order it yet. > > http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3032272 > > With a 17.15 cm diameter sphere the capacitance is 4(pi)eo*0.01715/2 > = 9.54E-13 farads and can store 1/2 C*V^2 = 0.02 joules at 200 KV > which is adequate for looking at weight loss of capacitors or > half-life effects on radioisotopes with high fields. > > For less than $450.00 USD I'm ready to roll when the itch strikes. > > Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 11:13:47 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB7J9iIJ027972; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 11:13:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB7IQhLK020518; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:26:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:26:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=c+aDfOx2LxpWw0XTDgXYFNwxMLe+ZLzPLuuJE0ruw+/w2eHzaQxOqvjCHhfxZn0DjEATK/DAweaMdJ2XZdsmvbwA/92sgnIFJXEx+RYWah5OOICQjp3CIVjuXs8NB0QuVwscsTibVxp40LCdzI1/cLm426lQlFXvEPd3WXsFazA= ; X-YMail-OSG: 5cYhapUVM1n2lHMLLvsCK17IpjyuNuBv3t4l38F6dw5RgklCS9kj8z9ysosY3an8MqWCdmVUFq28f5gzSn_h_UoliiKJecUl1h9DVRrymb2c5e8Kr2toIijCJT_z4eqg8Xp_9xjL.j7KTQ-- Message-ID: <45784CD3.5010606 pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 09:18:11 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (Windows/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fjsparber earthlink.net, vortex References: <410-22006124712341472 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-22006124712341472 earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff Status: O X-Status: Fred, With all the old uranium mines near you, you should be able to start "remediating" some of the local NM geology quicker than I can say William Barker.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 11:14:12 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB7J9iIL027972; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 11:13:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB7H1hXd005412; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 09:01:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 09:01:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type; b=IgF3digWniWn4yDC9wzdpmyN1qiqzWVIZnQOFeO9QUr69EGHNGrN9C4HAcLOewbCM0RSDJdZiAuMS4kBgxu/NHZGWPePFNqacyy05mQSEwvUW+2wqV3sSkbuI95cD2YGjI/3f2R5k+g3aSKjwE9xAO/Kt/DgVzj5hlb2IKqy8HU= ; Message-ID: <457848E9.5020901 pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 09:01:29 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (Windows/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050204000809050307010306" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Ripe lemon from Edo Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050204000809050307010306 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What happens when a Japanese Auto designer is allowed to cross-breed, morph and "electify" two - not one but two... ... of "the most advanced cars in the world' [ in 1955] i.e. none other than the the Citroën DS ?? A double-Prius after an all-nighter in the Karaoke bar? http://www.eliica.com/ --------------050204000809050307010306 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What happens when a Japanese Auto designer is allowed to cross-breed, morph and "electify" two - not one but two...
... of "the most advanced cars in the world' [ in 1955] i.e. none other than the the Citroën DS ??

A double-Prius after an all-nighter in the Karaoke bar?

http://www.eliica.com/
--------------050204000809050307010306-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 13:11:10 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB7LADX9023262; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 13:10:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB7L05Fc014934; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 13:00:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 13:00:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ripe lemon from Edo Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 07:59:43 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <457848E9.5020901 pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <457848E9.5020901 pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 7 Dec 2006 20:59:43 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra3.eskimo.com id kB7KxieF014595 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 07 Dec 2006 09:01:29 -0800: Hi, [snip] >What happens when a Japanese Auto designer is allowed to cross-breed, >morph and "electify" two - not one but two... >... of "the most advanced cars in the world' [ in 1955] i.e. none other >than the the Citroën DS ?? > >A double-Prius after an all-nighter in the Karaoke bar? > >http://www.eliica.com/ Looks like they needed to add wheels to support an enormous increase in weight. My guess is they started out with the wrong batteries, then the design grew from there. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 16:01:05 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB8002Gm003507; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:00:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB7MiRWC011611; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:44:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:44:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=VI9CCueqhaiqB/sulzZh99ZUK+48/rQr8i6pDB8MmTeCFprSEZnEwhauc4aKVvTP/HbY4j7BgOeovBZtB+4csifcfaxDbBafZ7ltYgB21+OGc5IMJSnHYqbraPCGgBxXQuf7I8JNzJsIL4hPiJoGwjODZ7S9TS+tj5wIfkPTKrs= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:44:15 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <2fpHKD.A.10C.JlJeFB ultra3.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Mars Wet Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, Vorts! I'm sure that, by now, all have heard the news. Mars is all wet. But, JIC: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/12/061206-mars-water.html Terry Life is Ubiquitous From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 17:49:17 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB81k2LK026205; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:49:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB80Tukm031936; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:29:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:29:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <024901c71a5f$f9bd5a60$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22006124712341472 earthlink.net> <01f201c71a13$edee59b0$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 01:29:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra3.eskimo.com id kB80Ti6g031772 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff Status: O X-Status: Oops should have been between "definite shock" and "unpleasant shock". Beware that the thing will be capable of arcing at your fingers from about 200mm away (~1mm/kV). Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 4:25 PM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff >> potentially lethal 200,000 volt > > Hi Fred, > > 20mJ is only between "perceptible sensation " and "definite shock". It takes 10,000mJ to die it seems. > > http://www.jci.co.uk/Electrostatics/Wshop-04.pdf > Discharge Response: > energy(mJ) > > 1mJ perceptible sensation > 10mJ definite shock > 100mJ unpleasant shock > 1,000mJ severe shock, muscular > 10,000mJ possibly lethal shock > > Good experiments! > Michel > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 1:34 PM > Subject: [Vo]: FW: Re: Going Van de Graaff > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Frederick Sparber >> Sent: 12/7/2006 5:31:26 AM >> Subject: Re: Going Van de Graaff >> >> >> In order to get around working with potentially lethal 200,000 volt >> power supplies I ordered a 200 KV Van de Graaff from >> Edmunds Scientific, >> >> http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3070264 >> >> An Acculab VIC 10 Kg (+/- 1.0 gram res) >> digital scale at a discount store, >> >> http://www.balances.com/ >> >> and a 1.0 lb 400 watt Inverter to >> work off 8 "D batteries"from InvertersRus, >> >> http://www.invertersrus.com/ >> >> and heavy gauge aluminum >> foil from the grocery store to use off the roll as needed, >> on top of the Styrofoam in place of earth ground. >> >> This way using Styrofoam cups, packing scraps, sheets-blocks >> the Van de Graaff can be totally isolated-floated above ground >> on the Acculab, or it can be floated and the experiments floated >> on top of the scale. The discharge wand would be handy, but >> I didn't order it yet. >> >> http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3032272 >> >> With a 17.15 cm diameter sphere the capacitance is 4(pi)eo*0.01715/2 >> = 9.54E-13 farads and can store 1/2 C*V^2 = 0.02 joules at 200 KV >> which is adequate for looking at weight loss of capacitors or >> half-life effects on radioisotopes with high fields. >> >> For less than $450.00 USD I'm ready to roll when the itch strikes. >> >> Fred > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 18:40:28 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB82e5C3021700; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:40:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB82KHo9031321; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:20:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:20:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mars Wet Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:19:54 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 8 Dec 2006 02:19:54 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra3.eskimo.com id kB82Jugr031066 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:44:15 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Gnorts, Vorts! > >I'm sure that, by now, all have heard the news. Mars is all wet. But, JIC: > >http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/12/061206-mars-water.html > >Terry > >Life is Ubiquitous The same types of things can be seen on the Moon, where there is no water, and not even any atmosphere. I suspect they are dust "landslides". Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 19:46:38 2006 Received: from ultra3.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kB83kKPj010435; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 19:46:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra3.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kB83kAuO010351; Thu, 7 Dec 2006 19:46:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 19:46:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra3.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000801c71a7b$629e2760$7b037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]: OT: Pearl Harbor Dec. 7, 1941 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 21:46:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C71A49.17772ED0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C71A49.17772ED0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C71A49.1778B570" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C71A49.1778B570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, Visited funeral home tonight pay respects to old friend served with in = the US Navy WW2 I thought about Iraq and the pending commission study report to Bush. My thoughts are our leaders should never pull a gun on a man they don't = intend to kill. All it gets is a lotta good men killed for nothing.=20 Capt.David Fraser of Houston. West Point Grad, US Army ranger, special = forces.. killed in Iraq Nov. 26, 2006. 25 years old. Soldier, warrior, brother, friend..He was a warrior and our leaders were = using him as a policeman in a war. What a waste. To everyone that ever served his nation honorably, comrade and foe, I = salute you. Few leaders in the world deserve your service and the = sacrifice made by those that have fallen in battle. I still get tears when I see our flag and remember what it stand for and = who it stands for. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C71A49.1778B570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
Visited funeral home tonight pay respects to old friend served with = in the=20 US Navy WW2
I thought about Iraq and the pending commission study report to = Bush.
 
My thoughts are our leaders should never pull a gun on a man = they=20 don't intend to kill.  All it gets is a lotta good men killed for = nothing.=20
 
Capt.David Fraser of Houston. West Point Grad, US Army ranger, = special=20 forces.. killed in Iraq Nov. 26, 2006. 25 years old.
Soldier, warrior, brother, friend..He was a warrior and our leaders = were=20 using him as a policeman in a war. What a waste.
 
To everyone that ever served his nation honorably,  comrade = and foe, I=20 salute you. Few leaders in the world deserve your service and the = sacrifice made=20 by those that have fallen in battle.
I still get tears when I see our flag and remember what it stand = for and=20 who it stands for.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C71A49.1778B570-- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C71A49.17772ED0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000301c71a7b$6203e330$7b037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C71A49.17772ED0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 12:15:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBBKFNIr018238; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:15:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBBKF0WF018014; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:15:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:15:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061211151331.03fed730 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:14:32 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBBKEpRA017912 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: PNL study on plug in hybrids shows there is enough generating capacity Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.pnl.gov/news/release.asp?id=204 Mileage from megawatts: Study finds enough electric capacity to "fill up" plug-in vehicles across much of the nation RICHLAND, Wash. – If all the cars and light trucks in the nation switched from oil to electrons, idle capacity in the existing electric power system could generate most of the electricity consumed by plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. A new study for the Department of Energy finds that "off-peak" electricity production and transmission capacity could fuel 84 percent of the country's 220 million vehicles if they were plug-in hybrid electrics. Researchers at DOE's Pacific Northwest National Laboratory also evaluated the impact of plug-in hybrid electric vehicles, or PHEVs, on foreign oil imports, the environment, electric utilities and the consumer. . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 12:26:00 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBBKPqYl011007; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:25:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBBKPaUb010933; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:25:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:25:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:28:24 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Flatulence forces emergency landing In-reply-to: <410-22006123611521449 earthlink.net> To: fjsparber earthlink.net, "vortex-l" Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200612111528.24137.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <410-22006123611521449 earthlink.net> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 06 December 2006 06:52, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Makes scents,doesn't it? > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16064706/ This story was also picked up on 'The Register' ...'theregister.co.uk.. Shows that the 'hoamland seeekurity people have waaaaayyyy too much time on their hands. And I might add way too many people to have to justify. Time for a 'RIF' in old fashioned civil service parlance. Now my stepson has resolved never to fly, at least in the United States or anywhere on a US Flagged carrier. He is a legendary farter. Once farted so loud while we were all on a family camping trip that a fisherman on the shore of a lake about 300 feet away heard it and yelled out. Stepson's wife's footsteps hotfooting away to hide behind the camper were also heard. Afraid that our local gestapo would probably consider him the most dangerous hombre since Redd Foxx said in his night club act what Lincoln did in his stovepipe hat. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 13:08:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBBL88Uh029483; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:08:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBBL87v3029469; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:08:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:08:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Sr+EUE4/vCyrDicBAz/PFwy4v0fpkEGnjYOfi+fVMUVsiXH2KwffvYqZoQUtspqTWzx5coEkWU30kPMsK2dtnTU3AEY5rHALat2cYzs2STTqSR9g7PDT1RuKNyC3iCXuPldGbGSzV8i3JLWqMHj/OfaaikOWBdPrQAndDeZE0vY= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:08:03 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: PNL study on plug in hybrids shows there is enough generating capacity In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061211151331.03fed730 mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_15634_14387993.1165871283907" References: <7.0.1.0.2.20061211151331.03fed730 mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_15634_14387993.1165871283907 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 12/12/06, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Researchers at DOE's Pacific Northwest National > Laboratory also evaluated the impact of plug-in > hybrid electric vehicles, or PHEVs, on foreign > oil imports, the environment, electric utilities and the consumer. . . . Then Bush calculated it against his wallet.,. ------=_Part_15634_14387993.1165871283907 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 12/12/06, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
Researchers at DOE's Pacific Northwest National
Laboratory also evaluated the impact of plug-in
hybrid electric vehicles, or PHEVs, on foreign
oil imports, the environment, electric utilities and the consumer. . . .

Then Bush calculated it against his wallet.,.


------=_Part_15634_14387993.1165871283907-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 14:32:39 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBBMWN3J014010; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:32:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBBMWLDf013985; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:32:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:32:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061211172943.0421d1a0 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:32:16 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Coconut shell composition? Status: O X-Status: Thinking about the Case experiment . . . Does anyone know what charcoal made from coconut shell might include? Mainly carbon, of course, but what other elements? This source: http://www.fao.org/docrep/X0451E/X0451e11.htm Says that shells are: Lignin 36% Cellulose 53% That's 89%. What else? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 14:22:48 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBBMMgpG011333; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:22:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBBMGtjE009534; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:16:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:16:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "DonW" To: Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:16:52 -0700 Message-ID: <003701c71d72$10431ee0$0302a8c0 donw> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBBMGrPh009505 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: A new model system of nanostructures X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends3 Status: RO X-Status: http://www.pnl.gov/breakthroughs/current/documents/breakthroughs.pdf A new model system of nanostructures has been synthesized and could lead to control of chemical transformations critical for enhancing the nation's energy future. This new nanostructure model system, developed by researchers at the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, the University of Texas-Austin (UT) and Washington State University, offers insights into the structure and reaction mechanism of metal oxides. Metal oxides are important catalysts for producing fuels for transportation and value-added chemicals. In the new model system, nanoclusters composed of cyclic tungsten trioxide line up molecule-by-molecule on a titanium dioxide platform. One tungsten atom from each cluster is raised slightly, holding forth the potential to execute catalytic reactions-a striking layer. This unique, uniform feature may enable scientists to predict with increased accuracy and control the reactions that will occur, thereby enhancing the effectiveness of catalytic reactions. The researchers employed specialized equipment at the Environmental Molecular Sciences Laboratory, a DOE user facility on the PNNL campus, to prepare and characterize the platform as well as the clusters. Using a unique approach that changed the tungsten oxide directly from a solid to a gas, the researchers successfully stabilized the molecular rings-or "trimers"-of tungsten on the titanium platform. The new nanostructure model system was developed as part of the Early Transition Metals as Catalysts project at PNNL, supported by the DOE Office of Basic Energy Sciences, Chemical Sciences, Geosciences, and Biosciences Division. . difference from commercial catalysts. Commercial catalysts vary in size and chemical composition, making it difficult to understand or predict the reactions taking place at the molecular level. In the new model, all the nanoclusters are the same size, evenly dispersed, and oriented in one of two directions on the titanium oxide crystal Uniform nano-clusters signal improved catalysts A scanning tunneling microscope image (left) shows nano-clusters deposited on a titanium dioxide platform with consistent orientation of the atoms (right). The dark triangle indicates the center of the tungsten trioxide molecular ring on the platform; the brighter side depicts the raised atom. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 18:59:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBC2wXNK000703; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:58:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBC2wUP8000665; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:58:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:58:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:01:44 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mars Wet In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200612112201.44299.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 07 December 2006 21:19, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:44:15 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] > > >Gnorts, Vorts! > > > >I'm sure that, by now, all have heard the news. Mars is all wet. But, > > JIC: > > > >http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/12/061206-mars-water.html > > > >Terry > > > >Life is Ubiquitous > > The same types of things can be seen on the Moon, where there is no water, > and not even any atmosphere. I suspect they are dust "landslides". > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. This is going to get like Chekhov's 'Cherry Orchard'. Everybody is talking past each other for their own ends....or jobs. Water will be found and incontrovertably proved when it is brought back or sampled by us. Until then it is like 'bigfoot'. Or better like random intermittant phenomena not unlike a bad connection in equipment. Now you see it now you don't. Personally I lean to the idea that we are not unique in the universe, and physical laws governing us do so for others as well. Exo geoligical processes seem earthlike on not only Mars but Titan as well. Branching dendritic stream passagways seem the same everywhere no matter what the fluid, water or ethanol or methane transported. By the same token, organic material older than our central star was found in a meteorite uncontaminated by terrestrial sources. Life in all likelyhood is panspermaic by its very nature, and we are probably nothing special. All else is ego and religion or both. Personally I would be happy even if we just found simple single celled life in the deepest reaches of the martian deep equatorial canyons. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 18:59:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBC2o8CR025626; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:50:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBC2KuiE030262; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:20:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:20:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Coconut shell composition? Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 13:20:21 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <424sn21qkv66kktptbho84j6g1q8gpqoh4 4ax.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20061211172943.0421d1a0 mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061211172943.0421d1a0 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 12 Dec 2006 02:20:20 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBC2KPlq029768 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:32:16 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Thinking about the Case experiment . . . Does anyone know what >charcoal made from coconut shell might include? Mainly carbon, of >course, but what other elements? > >This source: > >http://www.fao.org/docrep/X0451E/X0451e11.htm > >Says that shells are: > >Lignin 36% >Cellulose 53% These imply Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Carbon. However all organic material also contains Nitrogen and Phosphorous, and in small amount lots of other chemicals, e.g. Sodium, Potassium, Iron, Copper, Magnesium, Calcium, etc. etc. In short the only real way to find out is to do an analysis of the actual material used (the more so because it will to some extent depend on what was in the water when the tree was growing). However you may be "barking up the wrong tree". It may not be the actual substances that are present so much as the physical structure that is important. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 19:09:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBC39IrX010673; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:09:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBC39GEt010628; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:09:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:09:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:12:34 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: China's Neodymium monopoly is being felt In-reply-to: <200612012251.kB1MpQsP062503 mail2.mx.voyager.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200612112212.34030.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <200612012251.kB1MpQsP062503 mail2.mx.voyager.net> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 01 December 2006 17:51, OrionWorks wrote: > FYI, > > It's my understanding that the Chinese government has recently increased > the price of raw materials to all magnet manufacturers by 60%. This > presumably includes the rare-earth material, NEODYMIUM. > > As previously mentioned on this discussion group the Chinese government > quietly and methodically went about the business of purchasing all the > mining operations for these kinds of rare-earth elements everywhere on the > planet. They now own the whole shebang - everything. They maintain a total > monopoly on these kinds of rare-earth supplies. > > And whadaya know! Suddenly they've decided to increase prices by 60 > percent. > > I maintain a suspicion that rare earth materials, particularly Neodymium, > are going to start playing an ever increasing vital role in the development > of this planet's AE resources. China stands to make a tidy profit from > their shrewd and complete takeover of this market. > > And the rest of us will be paying, literally, for our lack of foresight. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com Wars have been fought over that kind of monopolistic activity. The Japanese allegedly hit us at Pearl in the last century after we denied them sale of scrap iron needed by them; and the Germans were forced to use flammable hydrogen for the dirigible 'Hindenburg' with disastrous results simply because we had refused to sell them helium gas whose supply we then controlled. Stsnding Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 19:26:24 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBC3PuZ4021525; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:25:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBC3PkaX021444; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:25:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:25:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=X5z7kSHZFNppNpAuF+Gn/a+wJoeEEcl2EXZqfvieMYyC4dUEW4zNzKyv4PoJFFwC9z5osX3jahBHCzg3yaJgyO+ZqmS22RIAhIbEnPa+gAOb6AbdAgus7potcW936KbouhIcxzg8Kw2Uf2Gsf7wvHSE+EhjRalokAWn95GcUVCg=; X-YMail-OSG: pioZn_sVM1nZWtl9TsrjrK2bl68E0ysrpxQDIPTlvgTC8Cq3.WpP5gT25VAGAQHv.bhPPM2boZ8sGkIvwzv1jFiieW6N._cbpTK_8n3Z5V_5AerDAMNNjvLPPPMPiazjzXp5gdUW.DdCN2c- Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:25:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Coconut shell composition? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <424sn21qkv66kktptbho84j6g1q8gpqoh4 4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <626366.82380.qm web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > ... "barking up the wrong tree". It may not be the actual substances that are present so much as the physical structure that is important. Structure could be important -- as well as isotope enrichment. Charcoal, almost by definition is carbon with impurities, and one of those which will be enriched is the heavy isotope of oxygen --- which is naturally enriched in all plant life, due to osmotic processes. I mention this only because in all of the carbon to iron transmutation phenomena - which Gene Mallove was enamored with - the one nuclear reaction which is always mentioned involves 18O and carbon transmuting to iron. Les Case is apparently going on a different route but who knows ?? Here is the site of an experimenter who has replicated iron transmutation (as have many including Bockris): http://www.blazelabs.com/n-transmut.asp Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 21:29:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBC5TZaX013238; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:29:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBC5TTXu013203; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:29:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:29:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200612120529.kBC5TKkD085422 mail1.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 23:29:21 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: svj orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: China's Neodymium monopoly is being felt Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_30d922ad223fa1d3691bd3441e325a5b" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 66.168.30.131 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_30d922ad223fa1d3691bd3441e325a5b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ... > Wars have been fought over that kind of monopolistic > activity. The Japanese allegedly hit us at Pearl in > the last century after we denied them sale of scrap > iron needed by them; and the Germans were forced to > use flammable hydrogen for the dirigible 'Hindenburg' > with disastrous results simply because we had refused > to sell them helium gas whose supply we then > controlled. > > Stsnding Bear > Don't forget what Blutarski said in Animal House: "Remember when the Germans bombed Perl Harbor!" Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_30d922ad223fa1d3691bd3441e325a5b Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ...

> Wars have been fought over that kind of monopolistic
> activity. The Japanese allegedly hit us at Pearl in
> the last century after we denied them sale of scrap
> iron needed by them; and the Germans were forced to
> use flammable hydrogen for the dirigible 'Hindenburg'
> with disastrous results simply because we had refused
> to sell them helium gas whose supply we then
> controlled.
>
> Stsnding Bear
>

Don't forget what Blutarski said in Animal House:

"Remember when the Germans bombed Perl Harbor!"

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

--=_30d922ad223fa1d3691bd3441e325a5b-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 22:26:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBC6Qad6010747; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:26:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBC6QVKu010714; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:26:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:26:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20061212062626.382028A1B2 xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 01:26:26 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Fred, Unless I'm missing something, the setup you describe is a self-charging assymetrical capacitor, an electric dipole. The end of the dipole closest to the earth will be more strongly attracted to it, resulting in an apparent weight gain. The long separation between the Van de Graaff electrode and foil at the base would make the effect most pronounced. Besides Fred, yer a spendthift. I did essentially the same experiment for about 0.1% of what you would spend, not counting the balance which I already own. Nuclear remediation? Let us know, itch or no. M. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber Sent: 12/7/2006 5:31:26 AM Subject: Re: Going Van de Graaff In order to get around working with potentially lethal 200,000 volt power supplies I ordered a 200 KV Van de Graaff from Edmunds Scientific, http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3070264 An Acculab VIC 10 Kg (+/- 1.0 gram res) digital scale at a discount store, http://www.balances.com/ and a 1.0 lb 400 watt Inverter to work off 8 "D batteries"from InvertersRus, http://www.invertersrus.com/ and heavy gauge aluminum foil from the grocery store to use off the roll as needed, on top of the Styrofoam in place of earth ground. This way using Styrofoam cups, packing scraps, sheets-blocks the Van de Graaff can be totally isolated-floated above ground on the Acculab, or it can be floated and the experiments floated on top of the scale. The discharge wand would be handy, but I didn't order it yet. http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3032272 With a 17.15 cm diameter sphere the capacitance is 4(pi)eo*0.01715/2 = 9.54E-13 farads and can store 1/2 C*V^2 = 0.02 joules at 200 KV which is adequate for looking at weight loss of capacitors or half-life effects on radioisotopes with high fields. For less than $450.00 USD I'm ready to roll when the itch strikes. Fred _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 23:12:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBC7C1j7028205; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 23:12:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBC7C0eS028191; Mon, 11 Dec 2006 23:12:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 23:12:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Coconut shell composition? X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20061212071159.D26B28A1A2 xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 02:11:59 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > (Coconut) shells are: > Lignin 36% > Cellulose 53% > That's 89%. What else? Likely some higher molecular weight insoluble polyphenols and maybe some traces of amino acids. The soluble polyphenols are in the oil, I believe. Charcoal from various plants probably has different properties because of the structure and the possiblity of different carbon allotropes. Anyone who has made serious gunpowder knows which plants make the best charcoal for that purpose. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 00:41:21 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBC8fFRP010589; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 00:41:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBC8fAdn010567; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 00:41:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 00:41:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=BnpnqtYTyDnkTO3jkrOCcF2tyjYzdIHodMGpt1EA4FpyJLVpLBQPElMPXO62xP8p; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061221284051385 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 01:40:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94010ec8ffcbeb2a47f8f6b09258f4087ea350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.164 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Coconut shell composition? Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This also how the petrochemical Activated Carbon Catalysts such as the one Les Case used are activated, Jed. Fred US 7,091,156 August 15 2006 "1. An activated carbon suitable for use in electric double layer capacitors, said activated carbon being produced by carbonization of a carbonaceous material consisting essentially of coconut shell, wherein said activated carbon is produced by a process comprising: pulverizing a coconut shell; carbonizing said coconut shell in an inert atmosphere to produce a coconut shell char; and heat-treating said coconut shell char at a temperature ranging from 900.degree. C. to 1,100.degree. C. in a steam gas atmosphere containing an inert gas selected from the group consisting of nitrogen, argon, and a combustion exhaust gas, wherein the content of steam in said steam gas atmosphere ranges from 30% by volume to 100% by volume, wherein said activated carbon has a BET specific surface area of 2000 m.sup.2/g to 2500 m.sup.2/g, and an average pore diameter of 1.95 nm (19.5 .ANG.) to 2.20 nm (22 .ANG.), wherein the pore volume of pores having a pore diameter, as calculated according to a Cranston-Inkley method, of 5.0 nm (50 .ANG.) to 30.0 nm (300 .ANG.) is 0.05 cm.sup.3/g to 0.15 cm.sup.3/g, wherein the amount of oxygen contained per g of said activated carbon is 1.8 mg to 8.1 mg, and wherein said activated carbon exhibits a spontaneous potential versus a lithium electrode of 2.85 V to 3.03 V in a non-aqueous electrolytic solution" "The activated carbon of the invention is obtained by carbonizing coconut shell, then activating the carbonization product. Activating methods are roughly classified into a gas activation method and a chemical agent activation method. The gas activation method, which is also called physical activation in contrast to that the chemical agent activation is chemical activation, is an activation to produce activated carbon by bringing the carbonized raw material into contact with steam, carbonic acid gas, oxygen or other oxidizing gas at a high temperature to conduct reaction. The chemical agent activation method is a method of uniformly impregnating the raw material with an activating chemical agent, heating it in an inert gas atmosphere to cause dehydration and oxidation reaction of the chemical agent to thereby obtain activated carbon. As the chemical agents to be used, there are illustrated zinc chloride, phosphoric acid, sodium phosphate, calcium chloride, potassium sulfide, potassium hydroxide, sodium hydroxide, potassium carbonate, sodium carbonate, sodium sulfate, potassium sulfate and calcium carbonate. " ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
This also how the petrochemical Activated Carbon Catalysts such
as the one Les Case used are activated, Jed.
 
Fred
 
US 7,091,156   August 15 2006
 
"1. An activated carbon suitable for use in electric double layer capacitors, said activated carbon being produced by carbonization of a carbonaceous material consisting essentially of coconut shell, wherein said activated carbon is produced by a process comprising: pulverizing a coconut shell; carbonizing said coconut shell in an inert atmosphere to produce a coconut shell char; and heat-treating said coconut shell char at a temperature ranging from 900.degree. C. to 1,100.degree. C. in a steam gas atmosphere containing an inert gas selected from the group consisting of nitrogen, argon, and a combustion exhaust gas, wherein the content of steam in said steam gas atmosphere ranges from 30% by volume to 100% by volume, wherein said activated carbon has a BET specific surface area of 2000 m.sup.2/g to 2500 m.sup.2/g, and an average pore diameter of 1.95 nm (19.5 .ANG.) to 2.20 nm (22 .ANG.), wherein the pore volume of pores having a pore diameter, as calculated according to a Cranston-Inkley method, of 5.0 nm (50 .ANG.) to 30.0 nm (300 .ANG.) is 0.05 cm.sup.3/g to 0.15 cm.sup.3/g, wherein the amount of oxygen contained per g of said activated carbon is 1.8 mg to 8.1 mg, and wherein said activated carbon exhibits a spontaneous potential versus a lithium electrode of 2.85 V to 3.03 V in a non-aqueous electrolytic solution"
 
"The activated carbon of the invention is obtained by carbonizing coconut shell, then activating the carbonization product. Activating methods are roughly classified into a gas activation method and a chemical agent activation method. The gas activation method, which is also called physical activation in contrast to that the chemical agent activation is chemical activation, is an activation to produce activated carbon by bringing the carbonized raw material into contact with steam, carbonic acid gas, oxygen or other oxidizing gas at a high temperature to conduct reaction. The chemical agent activation method is a method of uniformly impregnating the raw material with an activating chemical agent, heating it in an inert gas atmosphere to cause dehydration and oxidation reaction of the chemical agent to thereby obtain activated carbon. As the chemical agents to be used, there are illustrated zinc chloride, phosphoric acid, sodium phosphate, calcium chloride, potassium sulfide, potassium hydroxide, sodium hydroxide, potassium carbonate, sodium carbonate, sodium sulfate, potassium sulfate and calcium carbonate. "
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 02:19:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBCAJYFu017672; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 02:19:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBCAJPCi017630; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 02:19:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 02:19:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=f7gXYaA4S2wgo3REPXSopcjUmtOoXA1ty4d+5oigz2URIJgXGQ724ZEawdn9H9LJ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612212101912479 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 03:19:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400efcf87b9828ed2a8ec2754b22dcd67a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.21 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Over-Unity Cigarette Filters? Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm US 6,789,548 Sept 14 2004 Method of making a smoking composition " The present invention relates to smoking articles such as cigarettes, and in particular to catalytic systems containing metallic or carbonaceous particles that reduce the content of certain harmful or carcinogenic substances, including polyaromatic hydrocarbons, tobacco-specific nitrosamines, carbazole, phenol, and catechol, in both mainstream cigarette smoke and side stream cigarette smoke." "In preferred embodiments, the nitrate or nitrite source includes a nitrate of lithium, sodium, potassium, rubidium, cesium, magnesium, calcium, strontium, yttrium, lanthanum, cerium, neodymium, samarium, europium, gadolinium, terbium, dysprosium, erbium, scandium, manganese, iron, rhodium, palladium, copper, zinc, aluminum, gallium, tin, bismuth, hydrates thereof and mixtures thereof. Preferably, the nitrate salt may be an alkali or alkaline earth metal nitrate." "One approach to removing undesired components from tobacco smoke is the use of catalysts. Palladium catalyst systems have been proposed for cigarettes. The following patents describe such systems: U.S. Pat. No. 4,257,430 to Collins et al.; U.S. Pat. No. 4,248,251 to Bryant et al.; U.S. Pat. No. 4,235,251 to Bryant et al.; U.S. Pat. No. 4,216,784 to Norman et al.; U.S. Pat. No. 4,177,822 to Bryant et al.; and U.S. Pat. No. 4,055,191 to Norman et al., each of which is incorporated by reference in its entirety." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
US 6,789,548  Sept 14 2004
Method of making a smoking composition
 
" The present invention relates to smoking articles such as cigarettes, and in particular to catalytic systems containing metallic or carbonaceous particles that reduce the content of certain harmful or carcinogenic substances, including polyaromatic hydrocarbons, tobacco-specific nitrosamines, carbazole, phenol, and catechol, in both mainstream cigarette smoke and side stream cigarette smoke."
 
"In preferred embodiments, the nitrate or nitrite source includes a nitrate of lithium, sodium, potassium, rubidium, cesium, magnesium, calcium, strontium, yttrium, lanthanum, cerium, neodymium, samarium, europium, gadolinium, terbium, dysprosium, erbium, scandium, manganese, iron, rhodium, palladium, copper, zinc, aluminum, gallium, tin, bismuth, hydrates thereof and mixtures thereof. Preferably, the nitrate salt may be an alkali or alkaline earth metal nitrate."
"One approach to removing undesired components from tobacco smoke is the use of catalysts. Palladium catalyst systems have been proposed for cigarettes. The following patents describe such systems: U.S. Pat. No. 4,257,430 to Collins et al.; U.S. Pat. No. 4,248,251 to Bryant et al.; U.S. Pat. No. 4,235,251 to Bryant et al.; U.S. Pat. No. 4,216,784 to Norman et al.; U.S. Pat. No. 4,177,822 to Bryant et al.; and U.S. Pat. No. 4,055,191 to Norman et al., each of which is incorporated by reference in its entirety."
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 04:16:09 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBCCG1w6022300; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 04:16:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBCCFx9x022283; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 04:15:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 04:15:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=F1Bvbb+5/uZIvIWD+HuDd5vd9txslSpoVMZ/iWOU0EGvfXNS0moruWKfQIj2v/C5; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612212121328423 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 05:13:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94053eafe907755cfcd39ab91779739a1e0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.139 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Michael Foster wrote: > > Hello Fred, > > Unless I'm missing something, the setup you describe is a self-charging > assymetrical capacitor, an electric dipole. The end of the dipole closest > to the earth will be more strongly attracted to it, resulting in an apparent > weight gain. The long separation between the Van de Graaff electrode and > foil at the base would make the effect most pronounced. > Yes. What I really want is a Sphere within a Sphere or Cylinder within a Cylinder (or combinations thereof) using the VDG to transfer electrons from the inner sphere or cylinder (where I can work safely in a field-free region) to the outer sphere or cylinder, to ascertain a force against the Earth's Megacoulomb Charge without building up an attracting image charge: http://www.nofc.forestry.ca/fire/faq_lightning_e.php#one "The Earth is electrically charged and acts as a spherical capacitor. The Earth has a net negative charge of about a million coulombs, while an equal and positive charge resides in the atmosphere." Buehler experiments: http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf invariably got an upward force on capacitors in air, regardless of sign of single plates or parallel plate capacitors, but, got null results in a Faraday cage, others also got null results in a vacuum, which begs the question, was there a heretofore unmeasured force between the cage or vacuum system and the earth? Spending big bucks on wild theories helps the economy, Michael. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Michael Foster wrote:
>
> Hello Fred,
>
> Unless I'm missing something, the setup you describe is a self-charging
> assymetrical capacitor, an electric dipole. The end of the dipole closest
> to the earth will be more strongly attracted to it, resulting in an apparent
> weight gain. The long separation between the Van de Graaff electrode and
> foil at the base would make the effect most pronounced.
>
Yes. What I really want is a Sphere within a Sphere or Cylinder within a Cylinder
(or combinations thereof) using the VDG to transfer electrons
from the inner sphere or cylinder (where I can work safely in a field-free region)
to the outer sphere or cylinder, to ascertain a force against the
Earth's Megacoulomb Charge without building up an attracting
image charge:
 
 
"The Earth is electrically charged and acts as a spherical capacitor. The Earth has a net negative charge of about a million coulombs, while an equal and positive charge resides in the atmosphere."
 
Buehler experiments:
 
 
invariably got an upward force on capacitors in air, regardless of
sign of single plates or parallel plate capacitors, but,
got null results in a Faraday cage, others also got null
results in a vacuum, which begs the question, was there a heretofore
unmeasured force between the cage or vacuum system
and the earth?
 
Spending big bucks on wild theories helps the economy, Michael.  :-)
 
Fred
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 06:41:21 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBCEfCJi010501; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 06:41:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBCEfAO1010479; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 06:41:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 06:41:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=hBp5IsQNotpHTXKz5eaMks98m6VKq3URNxG6EzfM0Fx2P2igySF3PJxViMXKAp78; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:X-Mailer:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <26962033.1165934427050.JavaMail.root elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 06:40:26 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: [Vo]: China's Neodymium monopoly is being felt Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d841002f9625fa1fd5f8fefe5d17872f9807c87288fcf778e7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.32 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Uh, that too but also the freezing of its foreign assets, trade embargoes, and most importantly, stopping of all petroleum products sales by allied nations, among others. How would we react (U.S,) when faced with similar actions? -ak- -----Original Message----- From: Standing Bear Sent: Dec 11, 2006 7:12 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: China's Neodymium monopoly is being felt On Friday 01 December 2006 17:51, OrionWorks wrote: > FYI, > > It's my understanding that the Chinese government has recently increased > the price of raw materials to all magnet manufacturers by 60%. This > presumably includes the rare-earth material, NEODYMIUM. > > As previously mentioned on this discussion group the Chinese government > quietly and methodically went about the business of purchasing all the > mining operations for these kinds of rare-earth elements everywhere on the > planet. They now own the whole shebang - everything. They maintain a total > monopoly on these kinds of rare-earth supplies. > > And whadaya know! Suddenly they've decided to increase prices by 60 > percent. > > I maintain a suspicion that rare earth materials, particularly Neodymium, > are going to start playing an ever increasing vital role in the development > of this planet's AE resources. China stands to make a tidy profit from > their shrewd and complete takeover of this market. > > And the rest of us will be paying, literally, for our lack of foresight. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com Wars have been fought over that kind of monopolistic activity. The Japanese allegedly hit us at Pearl in the last century after we denied them sale of scrap iron needed by them; and the Germans were forced to use flammable hydrogen for the dirigible 'Hindenburg' with disastrous results simply because we had refused to sell them helium gas whose supply we then controlled. Stsnding Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 07:21:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBCFKcgd006203; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:20:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBCFKaln006185; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:20:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:20:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type; b=gvS+VTLCTGv9XHpY+q5auV9V7EOJl+Y+iX3hqf08Oci59WAgB6x7cpohRwoZ6pF9YdovGVa/THR2abHZh/imzFxTMns+om9h/qy/Rkhy+HHsk+FbzOe0BiDNNhupPWSz3+aBzgNiA3gy60240/VOatJcuJQ/96afGBz9hmH8cYU= ; X-YMail-OSG: hzdBy4wVM1nLKleS102giU_rd4RIwzXSCdurOMVZ5vg3IuaccDMPp.pR7yOSRP2Hz7Lotq3.I0zLb25nZliXyVIQOIDS_uHMk9bchOjVp3JBVlb2K8L.4QRWiLJNAO8QDbBGdCmItinrjHNpzzgT71a7x0_HX0J.DdxmdCFr2hjy7YBqjhWWUXbtJ5o0 Message-ID: <457EC8BF.8050208 pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:20:31 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (Windows/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010902070702060406060503" Resent-Message-ID: <-I0fqD.A.hgB.DjsfFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010902070702060406060503 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Neglected Power Law The power output from an electrical generator (or ICE) can vary significantly - with smaller change in rotational speed - RPM. This is a generally overlooked criterion in present day ICE design: the cubic power-to-RPM (rule-of- thumb) except in race cars. Prior to the current emphasis on using a smaller ICE to recharge batteries, rather than operating solely through a mechanical transmission, there was little reason to optimize the electrical output of such an engine. And high RPM can be higher wear and tear with a piston engine - because of all the friction. This is not a problem with a turbine. IOW - a rotational speed increase can in theory give nearly a *cubic power law* change in motor/generator output current (at the same potential for instance). It is actually 'roughly' a cube law since there are other factors involved, but for the sake of argument - let's call it a cube-law. This does not imply overunity, as the power required to spin the device in question also increases in sync with output - but it does imply increased efficiency and *much smaller size and weight for the same output.* Adding 20% more RPM to an alternator will produce roughly (1.2 x 1.2 x 1.2 = 1.73) 73% more current for instance (in a perfect world). So what happens when you raise the RPM twenty-fold ? Well, needless to say - both the electrical power output and the required power input scale somewhat as a cubic power law 20 x 20 x 20 = 8000... Meaning among other thing that the device can be made much smaller, lighter and so forth for the same power. File that one away - but keep in mind Fred Sparber's previous posting on the simple scroll compressor (although other types of compressors can be used in this proposal). And - also keeping in mind that today's auto turbocharger spins at twenty or more times the normal engine speed. Turbochargers can spin at 80-100,000 RPM but are arguably "misused" in ALL present-day ICE design, because they only supply an air-boost which can be done in a simpler way. There are said to be efficient only because they use waste heat. But, and this cannot be denied, they also use that waste heat very inefficiently ! but since it is waste to begin with, nobody seems to care muc. ... so what happens when - instead of an air boost - the 'optimum use' for all of those available high RPMs is implemented : i.e. the former turbocharger becomes no longer anxilliary but the prime mover itself ? By redesign the boosted turbine part is spinning a magnet [inside a coil] at very high speed, instead of a compressor. It can potentially work out to an extraordinary gain, since maximizing the temperature of hot exhaust can be trivial, in engineering terms. Also in that perfect world of auto engine re-design - keep in mind that ALL (as in 100%) of combustion ICE engines have a torque curve and a differing RPM curve but will operate most efficiently if and when these two can be closely aligned. And most of all - if and when the RPM can be HELD CONSTANT, then overall engine efficiency improves significantly. A diesel which is maxed at 38% theoretical efficiency at 2,200 RPM might well be only 32% efficient at either 1,800 or 2,400 RPM, and even less if the RPM varies up and down instead of staying constant - big difference. One of the reasons a diesel is efficient is that the peaks of these two curves - torque and power - are relatively close together anyway, compared with other engine designs. And one of the reasons the Prius hybrid gets better gas mileage is that the setup permits the gasoline engine to operate longer at the BEST RPM (in terms of the two curves above). A Prius diesel would be even more efficient. BTW, this variable of "matching curves" is correspondingly one of the reasons why the Wankel design is relatively less efficient - i.e. its power curve maxes out at around triple the speed of its torque curve. Not good for auto power. Now revive all three of these previously unconnected variables in ICE redesign - into one ultra-high efficiency scheme [and overlooking the potential drawbacks for a moment]. What will it look like ? Well very cool and small! You would be able to easily lift such an engine for instance. And it is absolutely stunning to me [under the subject of "overlooked" potential improvements to the auto engine] that Detroit has not seen this before now. So obvious (to the armchair pundit at least). The best possible design, IMHO, based on these variables, for ultimate fuel efficiency in any ICE powering any vehicle, is going to be something like this: 1) A very small [single speed] diesel engine of maximum simplicity. The engine operates either on or off - no variation in RPM is possible - not even an 'idle'. This drastically simplifies the fuel injector. There is only a single speed which is exactly where the torque and power curves are best fitted. This would convert (most likely) into a small uncooled 2-cycle opposed piston (Junkers style valveless) 2cylinder constant speed diesel, of approximately "motorcycle size" (500 cc or less displacement) with a simple mechanical supercharger (as opposed to a turbocharger). A large scroll compressor or Roots-type will work. This particular engine with cermet sleeves can operate uncooled - with all that excess heat going into the exhaust. 2) A total "decoupling" of engine power from vehicle drive power. 3) A very high speed dedicated exhaust driven turbine - driving an electrical generator or alternator (in excess of 100,000 RPM). The exhaust is boosted and reheated (as follows below). IOW this is an integrated hybrid auto design which is 100% driven at the wheels by a separate electric motor(s), while the power for this motor comes from a combination of batteries (as in the Prius, or Batt-caps) - and from a high speed turbine - tiny in size - which turbine drives only the electrical generator (or alternator). The boosted-exhaust from the small constant speed diesel - which is not connected to the drive train at all - should make it all very efficient. Clear as mud? Yes, I realize that a drawing would be nice at this point, but anyway... The engine is tiny but the turbine is very adequate for 40-50 kWhr and is using excess air bled from the supercharger and a little extra fuel added to the normal exhaust to get to optimum turbine speed. Therefore the exhaust is capable of providing a significant percentage of drive power to the wheels. The single-speed diesel (in effect) powers the supercharger, and possibly its own starter - which is also reversible as a secondary generator- while most of the net electrical power output comes from a magnetic 'spinner' which by virtue of its high RPM is about 8000 times smaller and lighter than it otherwise would need to be, for the same power. That is, if it were driven by the ICE engine instead (as in the Prius, etc). Is this redesign a match made in heaven or what ?- perhaps the continued ravings of a single minded perfectionist who knows just-enough to overlook larger drawbacks? As with most new concepts in automotive, it is easy to emphasize the wrong variable -and only a working model will suffice, when all is said and done. This working prototype has now been added my "to-do" list... (under the "first win the lottery" entry) Jones --------------010902070702060406060503 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Neglected Power Law

The power output from an electrical generator (or ICE) can vary significantly - with smaller change in rotational speed - RPM. This is a generally overlooked criterion in present day ICE design: the cubic power-to-RPM (rule-of- thumb) except in race cars.

Prior to the current emphasis on using a smaller ICE to recharge batteries, rather than operating solely through a mechanical transmission, there was little reason to optimize the electrical output of such an engine. And high RPM can be higher wear and tear with a piston engine - because of all the friction. This is not a problem with a turbine.

IOW  - a rotational speed increase can in theory give nearly a *cubic power law* change in motor/generator output current (at the same potential for instance). It is actually 'roughly' a cube law since there are other factors involved, but for the sake of argument - let's call it a cube-law. This does not imply overunity, as the power required to spin the device in question also increases in sync with output - but it does imply increased efficiency and *much smaller size and weight for the same output.*

Adding 20% more RPM to an alternator will produce roughly (1.2 x 1.2 x 1.2 = 1.73) 73% more current for instance (in a perfect world). So what happens when you raise the RPM twenty-fold ?

Well, needless to say - both the electrical power output and the required power input scale somewhat as a cubic power law  20 x 20 x 20 = 8000...  Meaning among other thing that the device can be made much smaller, lighter and so forth for the same power.

File that one away - but keep in mind Fred Sparber's previous posting on the simple scroll compressor (although other types of compressors can be used in this proposal). And - also keeping in mind that today's auto turbocharger spins at twenty or more times the normal engine speed.  Turbochargers can spin at 80-100,000 RPM but are arguably "misused" in ALL present-day ICE design, because they only supply an air-boost which can be done in a simpler way. There are said to be efficient only because they use waste heat. But, and this cannot be denied, they also use that waste heat very inefficiently ! but since it is waste to begin with, nobody seems to care muc.

... so what happens when - instead of an air boost - the 'optimum use' for all of those available high RPMs is implemented : i.e. the former turbocharger becomes no longer anxilliary but the prime mover itself ? By redesign the boosted turbine part is spinning a magnet [inside a coil] at very high speed, instead of a compressor. It can potentially work out to an extraordinary gain, since maximizing the temperature of hot exhaust can be trivial, in engineering terms.

Also in that perfect world of auto engine re-design - keep in mind that ALL (as in 100%) of combustion ICE engines have a torque curve and a differing RPM curve but will operate most efficiently if and when these two can be closely aligned. And most of all - if and when the RPM can be HELD CONSTANT, then overall engine efficiency improves significantly. A diesel which is maxed at 38% theoretical efficiency at 2,200 RPM might well be only 32% efficient at either 1,800 or 2,400 RPM, and even less if the RPM varies up and down instead of staying constant - big difference.

One of the reasons a diesel is efficient is that the peaks of these two curves - torque and power - are relatively close together anyway, compared with other engine designs. And one of the reasons the Prius hybrid gets better gas mileage is that the setup permits the gasoline engine to operate longer at the BEST RPM (in terms of the two curves above). A Prius diesel would be even more efficient. BTW, this variable of "matching curves" is correspondingly one of the reasons why the Wankel design is relatively less efficient - i.e. its power curve maxes out at around triple the speed of its torque curve. Not good for auto power.

Now revive all three of these previously unconnected variables in ICE redesign - into one ultra-high efficiency scheme [and overlooking the potential drawbacks for a moment]. What will it look like ?

Well very cool and small! You would be able to easily lift such an engine for instance. And it  is absolutely stunning to me [under the subject of "overlooked" potential improvements to the auto engine] that Detroit has not seen this before now. So obvious (to the armchair pundit at least).

The best possible design, IMHO, based on these variables, for ultimate fuel efficiency in any ICE powering any vehicle, is going to be something like this:

1) A very small [single speed] diesel engine of maximum simplicity. The engine operates either on or off - no variation in RPM is possible - not even an 'idle'. This drastically simplifies the fuel injector. There is only a single speed which is exactly where the torque and power curves are best fitted.

This would convert (most likely) into a small uncooled 2-cycle opposed piston (Junkers style valveless) 2cylinder constant speed diesel, of approximately "motorcycle size" (500 cc or less displacement) with a simple mechanical supercharger (as opposed to a turbocharger). A large scroll compressor or Roots-type will work. This particular engine with cermet sleeves can operate uncooled - with all that excess heat going into the exhaust.

2) A total "decoupling" of engine power from vehicle drive power.

3) A very high speed dedicated exhaust driven turbine - driving an electrical generator or alternator (in excess of 100,000 RPM). The exhaust is boosted and reheated (as follows below).

IOW this is an integrated hybrid auto design which is 100% driven at the wheels by a separate electric motor(s), while the power for this motor comes from a combination of batteries (as in the Prius, or Batt-caps) - and from a high speed turbine - tiny in size - which turbine drives only the electrical generator (or alternator). The boosted-exhaust from the small constant speed diesel - which is not connected to the drive train at all - should make it all very efficient. Clear as mud? Yes, I realize that a drawing would be nice at this point, but anyway...

The engine is tiny but the turbine is very adequate for 40-50 kWhr and is using excess air bled from the supercharger and a little extra fuel added to the normal exhaust to get to optimum turbine speed. Therefore the exhaust is capable of providing a significant percentage of drive power to the wheels. The single-speed diesel (in effect) powers the supercharger, and possibly its own starter - which is also reversible as a secondary generator- while most of the net electrical power output comes from a magnetic 'spinner' which by virtue of its high RPM is about 8000 times smaller and lighter than it otherwise would need to be, for the same power. That is,  if it were driven by the ICE engine instead (as in the Prius, etc).

Is this redesign a match made in heaven or what ?- perhaps the continued ravings of a single minded perfectionist who knows just-enough to overlook larger drawbacks?

As with most new concepts in automotive, it is easy to emphasize the wrong variable -and only a working model will suffice, when all is said and done.

This working prototype has now been added my "to-do" list... (under the "first win the lottery" entry)

Jones
 --------------010902070702060406060503-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 09:35:30 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBCHYmO8027876; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:34:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBCHYNBF027744; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:34:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:34:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=cQ0L4AMG3XcH3AzQcXgeyE8PBujRquPCpMas+CwqcsWnhAsTsZwdZlMITtsEl7HwREcp+6AauwWq8awVR1wuR9fdP02TgqaKZnh70V1nFpq28NuUP/sk3s2ElZfeB7/woUqSItHfKAbZK8xFyWTG2Ue6tuh/ER2C/ERw4GKcFxw= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:34:18 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <457EC8BF.8050208 pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <457EC8BF.8050208 pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: <66BEjD.A.UxG.egufFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/12/06, Jones Beene wrote: > Is this redesign a match made in heaven or what ?- perhaps the continued > ravings of a single minded perfectionist who knows just-enough to overlook > larger drawbacks? You mean like traffic lights or the 405 at 5pm? Whatcha gonna do when the battcap's full? Like all turbines, windup and winddown are time consuming. On our trains we dump it into a BFR (resistor). Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 10:18:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBCIIHJY006336; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:18:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBCII8iK006256; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:18:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:18:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=kWceph6iKNrpGc/jj69tETnRAVlGfvuz84HsV+1a3wGaen0w6JMJjRf2+5CQsZgBSSJGc1g+QfvZFMt1V2QmIcXzua+o59B/x+1f7A0HBetWYQqXf11gooCLkJCshVaEkfEHrUvaifB1MW7JgRyjUhbLmLtETE7PVfheRjivhZk= ; X-YMail-OSG: cRL16ccVM1lHFXHFmAhqK0S1l.E.SbjC0blGD7BWoJ7O9ZMST7SN0MBjYdFMzB3loOZXkWz2mODY8yOmdhSQ63iUTUAOO1Q67PB28iGMRsRUBvaj4eiAJ2IP164knnkkChZEakOn_M2aTmQRNzlQ2Vb3ZuVARbXoTxc- Message-ID: <001501c71e19$dd5e50f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <457EC8BF.8050208 pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Neglected Power Law Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:18:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" >> Is this redesign a match made in heaven or what ?- perhaps the >> continued >> ravings of a single minded perfectionist who knows just-enough >> to overlook >> larger drawbacks? > You mean like traffic lights or the 405 at 5pm? Whatcha gonna > do when > the battcap's full? Like all turbines, windup and winddown are > time > consuming. Well windup delay is true with large turbines, megawatt and up. The smaller turbines used as turbochargers minimize this problem, but I suspect you are correct that enough batteries need to be there to get you through 30 minutes or so - of creeping along in rush hour traffic without the need for constant short interval powerups and downs. The Prius seems to have almost enough juice for this now; and it is likely to be just another desing consideration rather than a major problem (like the NIH-syndrome) and that acronym is not "healthy" is it? > On our trains we dump it into a BFR (resistor). Speaking of acronyms, I bet I can guess what the "BF" stands for From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 10:22:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBCIMMGN008362; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:22:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBCIML10008340; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:22:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:22:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <457EF347.7080301 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 13:21:59 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: References: <457EC8BF.8050208 pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <457EC8BF.8050208 pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A few comments... First, in a top-post, conventional ICE's use reciprocating parts in a number of places, starting with the valve lifters. Beyond a certain RPM these parts start "floating", which is one very big reason the RPMs max out where they do. This effect has a lot to do with the higher redlines on 4 cylinder engines versus 8 cylinder engines; in conventional designs the "steepness" of the mechanical rise/fall curves is smaller with more cylinders which tends to make them more subject to floating. In the bad old days of breaker points, point-float was a big issue, and dwell time was a bigger issue. Dwell approached zero as RPMs went up, and the shallow angles on the distributer cam for a V-8 exacerbated the problem. I don't know what makes the lightning bolt in most modern cars -- there is more than one option these days -- but if it's CD, then charging time on the cap must become an issue at higher RPMs. If it's a flyback effect, as in the old breaker-point scheme, then dwell time still matters. All of these problems can be avoided, of course, but that always comes at a cost. Conventionally one used multiple camshafts to aid the geometry, multiple (smaller) valves to reduce valve mass, dual-point systems to increase dwell time, and multiple distributors and coils to increase dwell time even more. Initial cost goes up, problems occur more frequently, and tuneups start to get nightmarish with such arrangements, however. The engineers didn't just "overlook" advantages to operating at higher RPMs; they decided the tradeoff wasn't worth it at that time. Jones Beene wrote: > Subject: Neglected Power Law > > The power output from an electrical generator (or ICE) can vary > significantly - with smaller change in rotational speed - RPM. This is a > generally overlooked criterion in present day ICE design: the cubic > power-to-RPM (rule-of- thumb) except in race cars. > > Prior to the current emphasis on using a smaller ICE to recharge > batteries, rather than operating solely through a mechanical > transmission, there was little reason to optimize the electrical output > of such an engine. And high RPM can be higher wear and tear with a > piston engine - because of all the friction. As I pointed out above, just making a reciprocating engine turn faster without "auto-governing" itself can be a challenge, never mind lifetime wear issues. > This is not a problem with > a turbine. > > IOW - a rotational speed increase can in theory give nearly a *cubic > power law* change in motor/generator output current (at the same > potential for instance). It is actually 'roughly' a cube law since there > are other factors involved, but for the sake of argument - let's call it > a cube-law. This does not imply overunity, as the power required to spin > the device in question also increases in sync with output - but it does > imply increased efficiency and *much smaller size and weight for the > same output.* > > Adding 20% more RPM to an alternator will produce roughly (1.2 x 1.2 x > 1.2 = 1.73) 73% more current for instance (in a perfect world). So what > happens when you raise the RPM twenty-fold ? > > Well, needless to say - both the electrical power output and the > required power input scale somewhat as a cubic power law 20 x 20 x 20 = > 8000... Meaning among other thing that the device can be made much > smaller, lighter and so forth for the same power. > > File that one away - but keep in mind Fred Sparber's previous posting on > the simple scroll compressor (although other types of compressors can be > used in this proposal). And - also keeping in mind that today's auto > turbocharger spins at twenty or more times the normal engine speed. > Turbochargers can spin at 80-100,000 RPM but are arguably "misused" in > ALL present-day ICE design, because they only supply an air-boost which > can be done in a simpler way. There are said to be efficient only > because they use waste heat. But, and this cannot be denied, they also > use that waste heat very inefficiently ! but since it is waste to begin > with, nobody seems to care muc. > > ... so what happens when - instead of an air boost - the 'optimum use' > for all of those available high RPMs is implemented : i.e. the former > turbocharger becomes no longer anxilliary but the prime mover itself ? > By redesign the boosted turbine part is spinning a magnet [inside a > coil] at very high speed, instead of a compressor. It can potentially > work out to an extraordinary gain, since maximizing the temperature of > hot exhaust can be trivial, in engineering terms. > > Also in that perfect world of auto engine re-design - keep in mind that > ALL (as in 100%) of combustion ICE engines have a torque curve and a > differing RPM curve but will operate most efficiently if and when these > two can be closely aligned. And most of all - if and when the RPM can be > HELD CONSTANT, then overall engine efficiency improves significantly. A > diesel which is maxed at 38% theoretical efficiency at 2,200 RPM might > well be only 32% efficient at either 1,800 or 2,400 RPM, and even less > if the RPM varies up and down instead of staying constant - big difference. > > One of the reasons a diesel is efficient is that the peaks of these two > curves - torque and power - are relatively close together anyway, > compared with other engine designs. You _can_ change the torque curve relative to the RPM curve. You can _not_ change the power curve relative to the torque curve (plotted against the RPMs), though, since power is torque times RPM. So, it's kind of meaningless to talk about the relationship of the torque curve to the power curve in a particular sort of engine -- that relationship is fixed for all engine types. If the peaks of the torque and power curves are "closer together" for diesels, that just means they can't spin very fast; their torque curves start to fall off quickly with increasing RPM which keeps the peaks of torque and power close together. All you're really talking about is the shape of the torque curve: it peaks quickly and falls off early. That isn't necessarily an advantage. As you pointed out, the diesel develops quite a bit of torque at low RPMs, which is useful in a conventional engine/transmission arrangement. It's irrelevant, however, if you're using a motor/generator/wheel-motor arrangement. And if you want maximum power per pound from your motor, you want the torque curve to go up with the RPMs as long as you possibly can get it, which is quite the opposite of what the diesel gives you. Again, power is torque times RPM, so, to take it to an extreme, high torque at zero RPM provides zero power, even though it's nice to have when you're drag racing. And as you pointed out above, there are some serious reasons for wanting torque at high RPM rather than low RPM. In any case, if you really want torque at low RPM you should switch to external combustion, of course, and use a steam engine. > And one of the reasons the Prius > hybrid gets better gas mileage is that the setup permits the gasoline > engine to operate longer at the BEST RPM (in terms of the two curves > above). But the biggest reason is surely regenerative braking. If they _really_ wanted to keep the gas engine at its efficiency peak they'd use a motor/generator/wheel-motor rig rather than the fancy dual-drive transmission that's actually in the cars. > A Prius diesel would be even more efficient. BTW, this variable > of "matching curves" is correspondingly one of the reasons why the > Wankel design is relatively less efficient - i.e. its power curve maxes > out at around triple the speed of its torque curve. Not good for auto power. But very good for electricity generation and for high power/weight ratios. What you really said there is that it has a very wide, flat peak in the torque curve -- that's good, not bad! It means the engine operates well over a wide range of RPMs. Very peaky torque curves lead to a need for very fancy transmissions. > Now revive all three of these previously unconnected variables in ICE > redesign - into one ultra-high efficiency scheme [and overlooking the > potential drawbacks for a moment]. What will it look like ? > > Well very cool and small! You would be able to easily lift such an > engine for instance. And it is absolutely stunning to me [under the > subject of "overlooked" potential improvements to the auto engine] that > Detroit has not seen this before now. So obvious (to the armchair pundit > at least). > > The best possible design, IMHO, based on these variables, for ultimate > fuel efficiency in any ICE powering any vehicle, is going to be > something like this: > > 1) A very small [single speed] diesel engine of maximum simplicity. The > engine operates either on or off - no variation in RPM is possible - not > even an 'idle'. This drastically simplifies the fuel injector. There is > only a single speed which is exactly where the torque and power curves > are best fitted. > > This would convert (most likely) into a small uncooled 2-cycle opposed > piston (Junkers style valveless) 2cylinder constant speed diesel, of > approximately "motorcycle size" (500 cc or less displacement) with a > simple mechanical supercharger (as opposed to a turbocharger). A large > scroll compressor or Roots-type will work. This particular engine with > cermet sleeves can operate uncooled - with all that excess heat going > into the exhaust. Are you sure you can operate a supercharged diesel without a cooling jacket? The issue isn't the exhaust heat, it's melting the pistons and cylinder walls. > > 2) A total "decoupling" of engine power from vehicle drive power. > > 3) A very high speed dedicated exhaust driven turbine - driving an > electrical generator or alternator (in excess of 100,000 RPM). The > exhaust is boosted and reheated (as follows below). > > IOW this is an integrated hybrid auto design which is 100% driven at the > wheels by a separate electric motor(s), while the power for this motor > comes from a combination of batteries (as in the Prius, or Batt-caps) - > and from a high speed turbine - tiny in size - which turbine drives only > the electrical generator (or alternator). The boosted-exhaust from the > small constant speed diesel - which is not connected to the drive train > at all - should make it all very efficient. Clear as mud? Yes, I realize > that a drawing would be nice at this point, but anyway... What's the diesel doing for you? It cools and pressure-reduces the exhaust a lot in the course of spinning itself. What's the point? Why not just inject the fuel right into the turbine? > > The engine is tiny but the turbine is very adequate for 40-50 kWhr and > is using excess air bled from the supercharger and a little extra fuel > added to the normal exhaust to get to optimum turbine speed. Therefore > the exhaust is capable of providing a significant percentage of drive > power to the wheels. The single-speed diesel (in effect) powers the > supercharger, and possibly its own starter - which is also reversible as > a secondary generator- while most of the net electrical power output > comes from a magnetic 'spinner' which by virtue of its high RPM is about > 8000 times smaller and lighter than it otherwise would need to be, for > the same power. That is, if it were driven by the ICE engine instead > (as in the Prius, etc). > > Is this redesign a match made in heaven or what ?- perhaps the continued > ravings of a single minded perfectionist who knows just-enough to > overlook larger drawbacks? > > As with most new concepts in automotive, it is easy to emphasize the > wrong variable -and only a working model will suffice, when all is said > and done. > > This working prototype has now been added my "to-do" list... (under the > "first win the lottery" entry) > > Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 11:02:22 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBCJ2HsV010160; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:02:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBCJ2CDP010117; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:02:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:02:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20061212190131.45139.qmail web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=eqsq20Z30UC47P3qq/I04Zerqw/lqarxk5T5L37dBC18lA+hTqRZUZ0MqwHz2eudOLnHTk/MWKoks6a9yh0m+JVcSef9uGI2grzJ74lKYrlPjiX/TJhh0FbuZZo9ePc+z38n8G6N4JoJVSHbr7JAzvtK7roXo7mAD7g57jH8xl4=; X-YMail-OSG: Am_ABIcVM1lgINJzFV1F68wbmYzPaJ3XbETRreSpZCGa_vRIJmmN7hercXVn1ed3cH1Eq00Qk0slpQJW8Ab7V2dZ4xliMIhOPsp3aGHmoj7L4nH53GGmFkpOANPP161I71Db8gramOt4UTJOdEyT9ApWuVYei57Lv4dlBef3Tt6MH9D__7G4mhaC15nS Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:01:31 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Neglected Power Law To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <457EF347.7080301 pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > As you pointed out, the diesel develops quite a bit of torque at low RPMs, which is useful in a conventional engine/transmission arrangement. It's irrelevant, however, if you're using a motor/generator/wheel-motor arrangement. Not really. You absolutely need to compress air to a high ratio, and turbines are terribly inefficient for that, especially in the smaller sizes. In contrast, the torque of a diesel can drive an efficient scroll or Roots compressor to supply pressurized air for fully double the efficiency of a small turbine (like the Allison) and one tenth the cost of all those investment-cast blades. This is a major consideration ! as pressurized-air is the #1 major loss-item for small turbine design. > And if you want maximum power per pound from your motor... What's the diesel doing for you? It cools and pressure-reduces the exhaust a lot in the course of spinning itself. What's the point? The diesel-turbine-hybrid, which I am describing has two gigantic advantages over the pure turbine for smaller output engines. And remember this general point - pressure - and only pressure drives any turbine and high heat is needed ONLY for complete combustion - although admittedly the relationship with between heat and pressure is linear in THAT engine design only (pure turbine). The cooler exhaust of the diesel-hybrid, as mentioned, can be reheated using some air-bleed from the supercharger and some very small amount of added fuel, so that "lower heat" is a really a non-issue anyway ... BUT ... in the hybrid you will not need superalloys, as with a pure turbine, nor will you need the 2400 degree F. heat, in order to get a complete burn. Because the diesel operates at high compression ratios which are **unobtainable** with any practical turbine, you get complete fuel combustion but at far lower effective temperature and *complete burn* is what it is this (maximum efficiency) is all about. Plus -- pure turbines are not *scalable* downward without major losses in efficiency. And even if this hybrid is not as light in weight as a pure turbine, it is still a third the weight of a normal ICE like the Prius, when producing the same power. Thus the title of the post (referring to the power law) - which title, once again got lost in cyberspace. ...even Toyota acknowledges that they would use a smaller engine except for "marketing concerns" (the consumer thinks that they need to have "reserve power" available, even if it is seldom used. go figure.) Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 18:06:50 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBD26f60002196; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:06:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBD26ds2002175; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:06:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:06:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002801c71e5b$4d76b170$e5027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Neglected Power Law Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:06:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01C71E29.025EFB20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <_rueHB.A.3h.uA2fFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C71E29.025EFB20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0025_01C71E29.025EFB20" ------=_NextPart_001_0025_01C71E29.025EFB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Jones, Interesting series of posts regarding a diesel-turbine-hybrid unit. We have been studying a work of Schauberger, a design he proposed for a = " implosion" type compressor. Our interest is in using it for vacuum = induction against pressure above 30 PSI, hopefully up to 150 PSI. Yuor idea of using a Roots style blower fits. Even more interesting = would be an "implosion" type blower if anyone makes a version of the = Schauberger design. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0025_01C71E29.025EFB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Jones,
 
Interesting series of posts regarding  a diesel-turbine-hybrid = unit.
 
 We have been studying a work of Schauberger, a design he = proposed for=20 a " implosion" type compressor. Our interest is in using it  = for=20 vacuum induction against pressure above 30 PSI, hopefully up to 150 = PSI.
 
 Yuor idea of using  a Roots style blower fits. Even more = interesting would be an "implosion" type blower if anyone makes a = version of the=20 Schauberger design.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0025_01C71E29.025EFB20-- ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C71E29.025EFB20 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002301c71e5b$4cf4d740$e5027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C71E29.025EFB20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 18:19:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBD2JSiC008701; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:19:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBD2JLGm008669; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:19:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:19:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:17:58 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Mon, 04 Dec 2006 17:14:46 -0500: > Hi Harry, > [snip] >> However, I also make distinction between gravitational >> mass and inertial mass. >> >> The sun would still have plenty of inertial mass, and it is >> this inertial mass that attracts (accelerates) the planets. >> >> You might ask, isn't the function of gravitational mass to attract? >> This answer is no. Gravitational mass reflects a body's indifference >> to having its gravitational acceleration impeded by another body. > [snip] > I'm sorry, but I can make no sense whatever out of this. Perhaps you could put > it in other words? > Mechanics is _a_ science of motion. However it has become an ideology of motion over the last 250 hundred years. I will put together a cut and paste history of the science of motion from Aristotle to Newton with selections I have gathered from the internet over the years. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 00:37:09 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBD8aqVF000858; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 00:36:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBD8aoXR000804; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 00:36:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 00:36:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <457FBB9A.2090804 usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 02:36:42 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Neglected Power Law References: <002801c71e5b$4d76b170$e5027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <002801c71e5b$4d76b170$e5027841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > Howdy Jones, > > Interesting series of posts regarding a diesel-turbine-hybrid unit. > > Yuor idea of using a Roots style blower fits. Even more interesting > would be an "implosion" type blower if anyone makes a version of the > Schauberger design. You should contact Frank Germano, www.frankgermano.com , he was looking for funding to build additional prototypes. > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 10:02:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBDI2Si9022278; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:02:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBDI2OfG022178; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:02:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:02:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=rI5ngq9A9Sqptc0Tdod26nEKE6PowiuJCcLnio2ESBfYGiTOEqaJjQMSw5gjVZGtYRpsTtiQOrxTFFr9lv/wb52TK2TVsFwchsw7r7OE5eVMuiu3razyF7Z0Dxall+Wt2onuqeuIaX2CAV5ULcqUYPpZnJkr89XglIhFD8BPTHU= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:02:20 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Forking Wikipedia Status: RO X-Status: http://citizendium.com/ Wikipedia with qualified expert advisors: "A "progressive fork" works like this: we will begin with all of Wikipedia's articles, so that the Citizendium will begin as, simply, a mirror of Wikipedia. Then people start making changes to articles in the Citizendium. On a very regular basis, we will refresh our copies of Wikipedia articles. If an entry in the Citizendium has never changed since being copied from Wikipedia, but the Wikipedia version has, then we upload the most recent Wikipedia article. But if the Citizendium has changed an article, then it is not refreshed. Tools will no doubt be written that will allow users to compare the differences between the Wikipedia article and the Citizendium article side-by-side. In addition, of course, people will be able to start brand new articles on topics Wikipedia has not yet covered." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 11:38:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBDJcUgC016736; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:38:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBDJcGhF016592; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:38:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:38:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061213142312.04264cf0 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:37:58 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Forking Wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >http://citizendium.com/ Wow. I certainly agree that Wikipedia deserves to be fu . . . , er, forked. This is an interesting document. It seems to me that Wikipedia's worst problem is that all articles reflect (or try to reflect) a unified point of view or a false consensus. Since there are many subjects such as cold fusion in which experts do not agree, why not allow articles to be split with some sections clearly marked as representing each camp? (You might need more than two sections.) In the case of cold fusion you would want a section written by an authoritative skeptic such as Robert Park, along with a version by a cold fusion researcher such as Ed Storms. And what a lovely contrast that would make! It is not clear to me whether they intend to allow clearly define different versions of articles under the same heading. If they insist that all articles present only one point of view, I do not think they will fix Wikipedia's problem. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 12:00:12 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBDK02r0012548; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:00:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBDJoYVB008434; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:50:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:50:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=AZciZaEPDMKAzujyIgTU41LnpFG+ZvV/U4W6HZJd0G3hHOQtbtUTHBIlywBjZQmlFFetVdOqt9jBRwMCsLN6h5/gaKrGSBE4Xblo859GVg/Al26K9xea9BAwMHFK5c5IRWNNJyI4taIDac567Qo10Oxn2ktb1rsd1eWEvNRzWlU= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:50:20 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Forking Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061213142312.04264cf0 mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20061213142312.04264cf0 mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 12/13/06, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Wow. I certainly agree that Wikipedia deserves to be fu . . . , er, forked. How did you do that using voice recog. software? :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 12:12:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBDKC8x1009494; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:12:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBDKC4cq009431; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:12:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:12:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 07:11:41 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:11:40 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBDKBfX5009057 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:17:58 -0500: Hi Harry, [snip] >>> You might ask, isn't the function of gravitational mass to attract? >>> This answer is no. Gravitational mass reflects a body's indifference >>> to having its gravitational acceleration impeded by another body. >> [snip] >> I'm sorry, but I can make no sense whatever out of this. Perhaps you could put >> it in other words? >> > > > >Mechanics is _a_ science of motion. However it has become an ideology >of motion over the last 250 hundred years. >I will put together a cut and paste history of the science of motion from >Aristotle to Newton with selections I have gathered from the internet over >the years. > >Harry > I'm afraid a history isn't going to address the issue, and besides I have little patience with historical texts anyway. One usually ends up wading through reams of irrelevant nonsense, in the vague hope of extracting one or two gems of useful information. Your reply BTW didn't answer my question. You just evaded the issue. For in as much as I understood what you wrote above, I get the impression that you have simply reversed the definitions of gravitational and inertial mass, and without apparent cause as near as I can tell. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 12:32:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBDKWd7b025881; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:32:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBDKWbWO025856; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:32:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:32:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 07:32:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-2200612212121328423 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-2200612212121328423 earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:32:30 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBDKWV1d025810 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 05:13:28 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Yes. What I really want is a Sphere within a Sphere or Cylinder within a Cylinder >(or combinations thereof) using the VDG to transfer electrons >from the inner sphere or cylinder (where I can work safely in a field-free region) >to the outer sphere or cylinder, to ascertain a force against the >Earth's Megacoulomb Charge without building up an attracting >image charge: > >http://www.nofc.forestry.ca/fire/faq_lightning_e.php#one > >"The Earth is electrically charged and acts as a spherical capacitor. The Earth has a net negative charge of about a million coulombs, while an equal and positive charge resides in the atmosphere." They got the charge wrong. Quote:- "The electrical resistivity of the atmosphere decreases with height to an altitude of about 48 kilometres (km), where the resistivity becomes more-or-less constant. This region is known as the electrosphere. There is about a 300 000 volt (V) potential difference between the Earth's surface and the electrosphere, which gives an average electric field strength of about 6 V/metre (m) throughout the atmosphere." Based on an altitude of 48 km, and a voltage of 300000 V, the charge is only 28440 C. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 12:37:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBDKamT5030330; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:36:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBDKakhF030311; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:36:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:36:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: [Vo]: China's Neodymium monopoly is being felt Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 07:36:39 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <26962033.1165934427050.JavaMail.root elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <26962033.1165934427050.JavaMail.root elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:36:39 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBDKaeEg030125 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Akira Kawasaki's message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 06:40:26 -0800 (GMT-08:00): Hi, [snip] > >Uh, that too but also the freezing of its foreign assets, trade embargoes, and most importantly, stopping of all petroleum products sales by allied nations, among others. How would we react (U.S,) when faced with similar actions? >-ak- The current administration has made it policy to "react" even when it thinks the "enemy" "might" do something. (See Dubya's purported reasons for going into Iraq). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 12:54:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBDKsbAT009018; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:54:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBDKsatb009005; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:54:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:54:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mars Wet Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 07:54:29 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7bp0o298poukfulgsn8t1g3cs97o5ij23v 4ax.com> References: <200612112201.44299.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> In-Reply-To: <200612112201.44299.rockcastle lakeside1.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:54:29 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBDKsTO2008939 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Standing Bear's message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:01:44 -0500: Hi, [snip] >This is going to get like Chekhov's 'Cherry Orchard'. Probably. :) >Everybody is talking >past each other for their own ends....or jobs. >Water will be found and >incontrovertably proved when it is brought back or sampled by us. Until >then it is like 'bigfoot'. Or better like random intermittant phenomena not >unlike a bad connection in equipment. Now you see it now you don't. I think it's highly likely, given the preponderance of hydrogen in the universe, that there will be some hydrogen compounds found on Mars. Since there is also ample chemically bound oxygen, the manufacture of water will very likely be possible, if it doesn't already exist in one form or another. I think there is good reason to believe that water ice exists in considerable quantities, though water in the form of chemical hydrates in the rock is also very possible and even probable. However I'm not sure whether or not the temperature ever gets high enough for liquid water. Surely the two little robots running around up there have been recording the temperature, so that by now we should know the answer to this? >Personally I lean to the idea that we are not unique in the universe, and >physical laws governing us do so for others as well. Agreed. > Exo geoligical >processes seem earthlike on not only Mars but Titan as well. Branching >dendritic stream passagways seem the same everywhere no matter what >the fluid, water or ethanol or methane transported. ...and very fine dust acts in exactly the same way, if the gradient is steep enough. What would be much more interesting proof of a real liquid would be a meandering river. IOW flow where the gradient is very small. >By the same token, >organic material older than our central star was found in a meteorite >uncontaminated by terrestrial sources. Life in all likelyhood is panspermaic >by its very nature, and we are probably nothing special. All else is ego and >religion or both. Personally I would be happy even if we just found simple >single celled life in the deepest reaches of the martian deep equatorial >canyons. If ET is really in the process of "Terra forming" Mars, then there is likely to be quite a bit. ;) BTW has anyone considered the possibility that Earth itself may at one time have been "Terra formed"? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 13:04:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBDL3psn018482; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:03:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBDL3oqp018458; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:03:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:03:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061213155923.04257f60 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:03:45 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Forking Wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20061213142312.04264cf0 mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >>Wow. I certainly agree that Wikipedia deserves to be fu . . . , er, forked. > >How did you do that using voice recog. software? :-) You have to interrupt the process and perform what might be called a manual adjustment, or handj . . . Oops again. I mean you have to type. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 13:48:55 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBDLmmH0016433; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:48:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBDLmk8D016393; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:48:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:48:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:46:43 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBDLmhOs016079 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: A Cut and Paste History of the Sciences of Motion Selections are about or by Aristotle, Strato, Aristarchus, Philoponus, Buridan, Hobbes, Descartes, Newton. Harry ----------------- Aristotle's prime mover. [My comment: It is different from the prime mover of the mechanical philosopher's which is really a prime pusher.] >From History of Philosophy, Vol.I, F.Copleston, Image Books Doubleday, New York, 1974 If God caused motion by efficient physical causation, then He Himself would be changed: there would be a reaction of the moved on the mover. He must act, therefore, as Final Cause, by being the object of desire. The moving Principle must be of such a kind that it is pure act, without potential. (http://www.theologywebsite.com/history/aristotle.shtml) The prime mover is not a causal agent in an active sense. it moves other things by being an object of their desire: they desire its supreme perfection and thus are moved ------------------- From, http://galileoandeinstein.physics.virginia.edu/lectures/lecturelist.html Michael Fowler UVa Physics Strato As we mentioned before, Aristotle's analysis of motion was criticized by Strato (who died around 268 B.C., he is sometimes called Straton), known as "the Physicist" who was the third director of the Lyceum after Aristotle (the founder) and Theophrastus, who was mainly a botanist. Strato's career was curiously parallel to Aristotle's. Recall Aristotle spent twenty years at Plato's academy before going to Macedonia to be tutor to Alexander, after which Aristotle came back to Athens to found his own "university", the Lyceum. A few years later, Alexander conquered most of the known world, dividing it into regions with his old friends in charge. In particular, he had his boyhood friend Ptolemy in charge of Egypt, where Alexander founded the new city of Alexandria. Now Strato, after a period of study at the Lyceum, was hired by Ptolemy to tutor his son Ptolemy II Philadelphus (as he became known) in Alexandria. Subsequently Strato returned to Athens where he was in charge of the Lyceum for almost twenty years, until his death. Strato, like Aristotle, believed in close observation of natural phenomena, but in our particular field of interest here, the study of motion, he observed much more carefully than Aristotle, and realized that falling bodies usually accelerate. He made two important points: rainwater pouring off a corner of a roof is clearly moving faster when it hits the ground than it was when it left the roof, because a continuous stream can be seen to break into drops which then become spread further apart as they fall towards the ground. His second point was that if you drop something to the ground, it lands with a bigger thud if you drop it from a greater height: compare, say, a three foot drop with a one inch drop. One is forced to conclude that falling objects do not usually reach some final speed in a very short time and then fall steadily, which was Aristotle's picture. Had this line of investigation been pursued further at the Lyceum, we might have saved a thousand years or more, but after Strato the Lyceum concentrated its efforts on literary criticism. Aristarchus Strato did, however, have one very famous pupil, Aristarchus of Samos (310 - 230 B.C.). Aristarchus claimed that the earth rotated on its axis every twenty-four hours and also went round the sun once a year, and that the other planets all move in orbits around the sun. In other words, he anticipated Copernicus in all essentials. In fact, Copernicus at first acknowledged Aristarchus, but later didn't mention him (see Penguin Dictionary of Ancient History). Aristarchus' claims were not generally accepted, and in fact some thought he should be indicted on a charge of impiety for suggesting that the earth, thought to be the fixed center of the universe, was in motion (Bertrand Russell, quoting Plutarch about Cleanthes). The other astronomers didn't believe Aristarchus' theory for different reasons. It was known that the distance to the sun was in excess of one million miles (Aristarchus himself estimated one and a half million miles, which is far too low) and they thought that if the earth is going around in a circle that big, the pattern of stars in the sky would vary noticeably throughout the year, because the closer ones would appear to move to some extent against the background of the ones further away. Aristarchus responded that they are all so far away that a million miles or two difference in the point of observation is negligible. This implied, though, the universe was really huge -- at least billions of miles across -- which few were ready to believe. ------------- John Philoponus, a Christian philosopher, scientist, and theologian who lived approximately from 490 to 570 http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/philoponus/#2.2 Theory of Impetus The Physics commentary contains an array of examples of innovative and damagingly critical commentary. One of the most celebrated achievements is the theory of impetus, which is commonly regarded as a decisive step away from an Aristotelian dynamics towards a modern theory based on the notion of inertia. Concepts akin to those deployed in Philoponus' impetus theory appear in earlier writers such as Hipparchus (2nd c. BCE) and Synesius (4th c. CE), but Philoponus nowhere intimates that he was influenced by any one of them. As far as one can tell from the text In Phys. 639-42, he takes his point of departure from an unsatisfactory Aristotelian answer to a problem that was to puzzle scientists for centuries: Why does an arrow continue to fly after it has left the bow-string, or a stone after it has ceased to be in contact with the hand that throws it? Since Aristotle supposed that a) whenever there is motion there must be something which imparts the motion, and b) mover and moved must be in contact, he was led to conclude that the air displaced in front of the projectile somehow rushes round it and pushes from behind, thus propelling the projectile along. This theory was still in vogue among Aristotelians of the sixteenth century, despite the fact that a thousand years earlier Philoponus had had no truck with it. He proposed instead, much more plausibly but still erroneously, that a projectile moves on account of a kinetic force which is impressed on it by the mover and which exhausts itself in the course of the movement. Philoponus compares this impetus or Œincorporeal motive enérgeia¹, as he calls it, to the activity earlier attributed to light. Once projectile motion was understood in terms of an impetus in this way, it became possible for Philoponus to reassess the rôle of the medium: far from being responsible for the continuation of a projectile's motion it is in fact an impediment to it (In Phys. 681). On this basis Philoponus concludes, against Aristotle, that there is in fact nothing to prevent one from imagining motion taking place through a void. As regards the natural motion of bodies falling through a medium, Aristotle's verdict that the speed is proportional to the weight of the moving bodies and indirectly proportional to the density of the medium is disproved by Philoponus through appeal to the same kind of experiment that Galileo was to carry out centuries later (In Phys. 682-84) ---------------------------- http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/GeneralInterest/Key/mediaeva.htm#Buridan Jean Buridan (1295?-1366?) Buridan was one of the most influential teachers of his time, whose ideas were still being taught at universities as late as the 17th century. He was a scholar of wide interests, publishing textbooks on almost every subject taught at the University of Paris where he was rector. Much of his work in the area of natural philosophy consisted of interpretations and commentaries on the works of Aristotle, which he attempted to assimilate to contemporary ideas. His work was prohibited from 1474 to 1481. It is probable that he died of the plague. He is well-known in philosophical circles for his discussion of Buridan's ass which, placed equidistant from two bales of hay, died from an inability to decide which one to eat first. Buridan was a strong proponent of the Impetus Theory of motion, which had been recently revived by William of Occam. In much the same way as a body that has been heated possesses a quantity of heat, the impetus theory suggested that a moving body possessed a quantity of motion (the impetus), imparted to it by the original force, and proportional to the mass of the body and its initial imparted speed. Thus a body would continues to move though a fluid until its impetus was exhausted by the resistance of the fluid. The Impetus Theory allowed motion in a vacuum (which Aristotle's did not). It also predicted that a body, moving in a circle under the influence of a centripetal force (e.g. think of whirling a mass tied to a string around your head) would continue to move in a circle for a short time after the force was removed. According to this theory, projectile motion would consist of three parts: (i) the body would move horizontally, the impetus suppressing any effect of gravity: (ii) a brief period of compromise between the impulse and gravity: (iii) the projectile falls vertically in "natural" motion. God was supposed to have given the planets a starting (circular) impetus, which, in the absence of air resistance, kept them going for ever. Buridan's is a good example of the many different versions of the Impetus theory that held sway during the Middle Ages. --------------------- IMPETUS THEORY Jean Buridan http://www.physics.vanderbilt.edu/astrocourses/ast203/impetus_theory.html Quote from Buridan's "Quaestiones on Aristotle's Physics": "When a mover sets a body in motion he implants into it a certain impetus, that is, a certain force enabling a body to move in the  direction in which the mover starts it, be it upwards, downwards, sidewards, or in a circle.  The implanted impetus increases in the same ratio as the velocity.  It is because of this impetus that a stone moves on after the thrower has ceased moving it.  But because of the resistance of the air (and also because of the gravity of the stone) which strives to move it in the opposite direction to the motion caused by the impetus, the latter will weaken all the time.   Therefore the motion of the stone will be gradually slower, and finally the impetus is so diminished or destoyed that the gravity of the stone prevails and moves the stone towards its natural place.  In my opinion one can accept this explanation because the other explanations prove to be false whereas all phenomenaa agree with this one." Note that the implanted impetus is caused by a mover who imparts an initial velocity to a projectile; the impetus is proportional to the velocity:  in fact, Buridan gave it a mathematical formulation:        impetus = weight x velocity   Notes on figure [Not Available] illustrating ballistic trajectory of impetus theory vs. Aristotelian theory:   Three stages of projectile motion yield the ballistic curve in the illustration [N.A.]: 1. Initial stage.  Impetus is dominant.  Gravity is insignificant.  Motion is in a straight line in direction of impetus. 2. Intermediate stage.  Air resistance slows projectile.   Gravity recovers.   Path begins to deviate downwards. Path deviates downwards from straight line.  This part of the path was conceived as part of a great circle. 3. Last stage.   Impetus is completely spent.  Gravity alone draws projectile downwards. Compare this with an Aristotelian trajectory: 1. Impetus comes from surrounding air, which receives it from the pusher (a catapult, for example). This results in a straight line trajectory, with decreasing velocity. 2. At a certain point, the force is exhausted so the projetile falls downwards in a straight line. Is impetus theory a forerunner of Momentum, ala Galileo and Newton? Yes and No.   Yes: Like momentum, impetus, once imparted to an object, will endure forever unless corrupted by an outside force. With impetus theory, angels are not needed to push celestial spheres.  With an initial impetus, spheres would keep moving since there is no air resistance in the celestial realm. No: Not like inertia: in modern inertia, rest and motion are equivalent.  But impetus has no meaning for a non-moving object. No: In modern theory, we speak of both linear and angular (circular motion) momentum.  But angular motion requires a force to be maintained (in modern theory). Buridan used impetus theory to explain LINEAR as well as CIRCULAR motion, i.e., these were essentially the same; impetus was the force that tended to uphold the INITIAL motion, whether straight or circular; this idea survived for 300 years until Galileo. What does Impetus Theory mean for astronomy?  LIBERATION. Freed from domination by Aristotle's laws of motion, astronomers can pursue new ideas. We don't need angels to push celestial spheres around; as written by Buridan about celestial intelligences: "one could imagine that it is unneccesary to posit intelligences as the movers of celestial bodies since the Holy Scriptures do not inform us that intelligences must be posited. For it could be said that when God created the celestial spheres, He began to move each of them as He wished, and they are still moved by the IMPETUS which He gave to them because, there being no resistance, the impetus is neither corrupted nor diminished." This theory of heavenly motion is a radical break with the traditional view.  Traditionally, back to Aristotle, celestial and terrestrial phenomena were made of different stuff and so obeyed related but separate laws of physics;  the impetus theory enabled philosophers to include celestial motion into the same theory used to describe terrestrial motion. Yet, though impetus theory appears sensible in many ways, it is in contradiction so many things that are observed.  Common sense says Aristotle might still be right. So, even Buridan retains the traditional view of solid celestial spheres (not planets) being the objects in motion. And Oresme ultimately believed that angles moved the celestial spheres. ------------- Hobbes http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/Mode/ModePiet.htm Juhani Pietarinen University of Turku, Finland I. Conatus and Motion Philosophers in the 17th century made hard efforts to explain the beginning and continuation of the motion of bodies. The notion of conatus ('striving' or 'endeavoring') was commonly used in the explanations. It refers to the power with which the motion of a body begins and is kept on. What is this power? Descartes explained it to be an active power or tendency of bodies to move, expressing the power of God. He distinguished between motion and the tendency to move, but Hobbes was anxious to argue that conatus actually is motion. In The Elements of Law he says it to be the "internal beginning of animal motion" (EL I.7.2), and in his later writings the notion of 'endeavor' refers to the beginning or first part of any kind of motion. Because motion is for Hobbes "a continual relinquishing of one place, and acquiring of another" (De Corp II.8.10), the beginning of a motion of a body must be an infinitely small change in the place of the body. Accordingly, Hobbes defines endeavor "to be motion made in less space and time than can be given; ... that is, motion made through the length of a point, and in an instant or point of time" (De Corp III.15.2). For Hobbes, the conatus is not an inherent power of a body but is determined by the motions of other bodies. However, he regards it as an active power, because "the beginning of the motion of a body must be considered as action or cause" (De Corp II.9.6). Thus endeavor is the power by which a body affects the motion of other bodies and resists their power, and, in a sense, also 'causes' the motion of the body itself, for Hobbes takes the principle of the persistence of motion to be true: "whatsoever is moved, will always be moved in the same way, and with the same swiftness, if it be not hindered by some other moved and contiguous body" (De Corp III.15.1). Thus Hobbes, like Descartes and Spinoza, takes conatus to be the active power by which a body persists in its state of motion. In brief, Hobbes accepts the following fundamental principle: (CP) The conatus-principle: A body endeavors to preserve its state and resist the causal power of other bodies. This is a true natural law for Hobbes. I want to show the importance of (CP) for Hobbes's theory of human action and political philosophy. ------------------------------- Descartes' The World http://www.princeton.edu/~hos/mike/texts/descartes/world/worldfr.htm ...Now it is the case that those two rules manifestly follow from this alone: that God is immutable and that, acting always in the same way, He always produces the same effect. For, supposing that He placed a certain quantity of motions in all matter in general at the first instant He created it, one must either avow that He always conserves as many of them there or not believe that He always acts in the same way. Supposing in addition that, from that first instant, the diverse parts of matter, in which these motions are found unequally dispersed began to retain them or to transfer them from one to another according as they had the force to do, one must of necessity think that He causes them always to continue the same thing. And that is what those two rules contain. I will add as a third rule that, when a body is moving, even if its motion most often takes place along a curved line and (as has been said above) can never take place along any line that is not in some way circular, nevertheless each of its individual parts tends always to continue its motion along a straight line. And thus their action, i.e. the inclination they have to move, is different from their motion. For example, if a wheel is made to turn on its axle, even though its parts go around (because, being linked to one another, they cannot do otherwise), nevertheless their inclination is to go straight ahead, as appears clearly if perchance one of them is detached from the others. For, as soon as it is free, its motion ceases to be circular and continues in a straight line. By the same token, when one whirls a stone in a sling, not only does it go straight out as soon as it leaves the sling, but in addition, throughout the time it is in the sling, it presses against the middle of the sling and causes the cord to stretch. It clearly shows thereby that it always has an inclination to go in a straight line and that it goes around only under constraint. This rule rests on the same foundation as the two others and depends only on God's conserving everything by a continuous action and, consequently, on His conserving it not as it may have been some time earlier but precisely as it is at the same instant that He conserves it. Now it is the case that, of all motions, only the straight is entirely simple; its whole nature is understood in an instant. For, to conceive of it, it suffices to think that a body is in the act of moving in a certain direction, and that is the case in each instant that might be determined during the time that it is moving. By contrast, to conceive of circular motion, or of any other possible motion, one must consider at least two of its instants, or rather two of its parts, and the relation between them.[37] But, so that the philosophers (or rather the sophists) do not find occasion here to exercise their superfluous subtleties, note t at I do not thereby say that rectilinear motion can take place in an instant; but only that all that is required to produce it is found in bodies in each instant that might be determined while they are moving, and not all that is required to produce circular motion... ----------- Newton's definition of inertia >From his Principia: Definition III The vis insita, or innate force of matter, is a power of resisting, by which every body, as much as in it lies, continues in its present state, whether it be of rest, or of moving uniformly forwards in a right line. This force is always proportional to the body whose force it is and differs nothing from the inactivity of the mass, but in our manner of conceiving it. A body, from the inert nature of matter, is not without difficulty put out of its state of rest or motion. Upon which account, this vis insita may, by a most significant name, be called INERTIA (vis inertiae) or force of inactivity. But a body only exerts this force when another force, impressed upon it, endeavours to change its condition; and the exercise of this force may be considered as both resistance and impulse; it is resistance so far as the body for maintaining its present state, opposes the force impressed; it is impulse so far as the body, by not easily giving way to the impressed force of another endeavours to change the state of that other. Resistance is usually ascribed to bodies at rest, and impulse to those in motion; but motion and rest, as commonly conceived, are only relatively distinguished; nor are those bodies always truly at rest, which commonly are taken to be so. ------------ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 14:58:39 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBDMwOCv013565; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:58:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBDMwJe9013516; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:58:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:58:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061213175724.03fec910 mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061213171957.04156068 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:58:09 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_24286343==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: --=====================_24286343==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message sent to: admin citizendium.org Greetings. I am something of an expert on a very controversial scientific subject: cold fusion energy. By "expert" I do not mean that I have conducted research, but I do run an online library with 537 fulltext papers and a bibliography of 3500 papers, including about a thousand in mainstream peer-reviewed journals. I have edited over 100 papers and two books, and I have translated a great deal of information from Japanese into English. The web site is here: http://lenr-canr.org/ The library contains mainly papers by cold fusion researchers, who of course believe the effect is real, but also a few papers by skeptics who believe that it does not exist. I myself am completely convinced that it does exist. I have a working relationship with over a hundred cold fusion researchers, and I am close friends with several. The Wikipedia article on cold fusion has generated a lot of controversy and many problems. Actually, I must admit that the present version is impressive in many ways, but it still suffers from lack of professionalism. There are many distinguished experts in this field, but they have told me they would not consider contributing to Wikipedia because they do not want their work to be trashed by amateurs. I think this is an excellent test case for you to consider. If you can make the cold fusion article editing process work to the satisfaction of experts on both side of the controversy, you can probably manage just about any academic subject. (Perhaps you doubt that such a controversial subject has attracted expert scientists. Cold fusion has been attacked and ridiculed in the press so often you may think it is only done by marginal people. I do not mean to boast, but to establish the bona fides of the field, let me append a list some leading researchers to the end of this message.) It seems to me that Wikipedia's worst problem is that all articles reflect (or try to reflect) a unified point of view, or a false consensus. Since there are many subjects such as cold fusion on which experts do not agree, why not allow articles to be split, with some sections clearly marked as representing each camp? In the case of cold fusion you might want a section written by an authoritative skeptic such as Robert Park, along with a version by a cold fusion researcher such as Edmund Storms. I know their views quite well, and I am sure there is no common ground between them. They do not agree on anything, not even what constitutes the most basic set of objective facts about this subject. Trying to shoehorn their views seamlessly into a single article is futile. Neither will contribute to much less countenance such an attempt. It is not clear to me whether you intend to allow clearly defined differing versions of articles under the same heading. If you insist that all articles present only one point of view in the final version, I do not think you will address the problem. This is like being governed by one-party system. I have worked for many years in this field, and I am quite familiar with some issues that you need to think out, which are broader than cold fusion per se. For example, consider the terms: "the majority of scientists" and "scientific consensus." These are slippery. The closer you look at them, the less they mean. In the case of cold fusion, does the "majority" include all scientists in all fields? Or should it be limited to people such as electrochemists and material scientists, who have relevant knowledge because because they have performed similar research? Does it only include people who have read and can cite peer-reviewed papers on the subject? Or does it only include people who have written peer-reviewed papers on the subject? These are complicated questions. I know a great deal more about the subject. I would be happy to explain how the researchers view Wikipedia in detail, if you would be interested. - Jed Rothwell - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - SOME LEADING COLD FUSION RESEARCHERS Cold fusion scientists have been often criticized for lacking credentials. However, many of them were previously considered to be world class experts in their fields. Martin Fleischmann is widely considered one of the top electrochemists in the world. He is a Fellow of the Royal Society and past president of the International Society of Electrochemistry, and he was awarded a medal by the Society. He has published numerous papers in leading journals. Distinguished Prof. John O'M Bockris, for example, wrote an authoritative and widely used textbook, ''Modern Electochemistry''. He is a Fellow of the http://www.ise-online.org/geninfo/fellows_details.php. Heinz Gerischer was considered a leading electrochemist. He was the Director of the Max Planck Institute for Physical Chemistry in Berlin, and a prize was established in his memory. He concluded that "there is now undoubtedly overwhelming indications that nuclear processes take place in the metal alloys." Nobel laureate Julian Schwinger was considered a leading theoretical physicist and was respected by most scientists, but he reported being denigrated and attacked after he began writing theoretical papers about cold fusion. Dr. P. K. Iyengar conducted and directed cold fusion research while he was director of BARC. [http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IyengarPKprefaceand.pdf] He later became the chairman of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission Profs. Miles, Oriani and Huggins have published textbooks and hundreds of articles, are designated Distinguished Professors and Fellows by universities and the U.S. Navy, and have been honored by the Electrochemical Society, NATO and other prestigeous organizations. Other cold fusion researchers include three editors of major plasma fusion and physics journals, a retired member of the French Atomic Energy Commission, and many top researchers from U.S. national laboratories. --=====================_24286343==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message sent to: admin citizendium.org

Greetings. I am something of an expert on a very controversial scientific subject: cold fusion energy. By "expert" I do not mean that I have conducted research, but I do run an online library with 537 fulltext papers and a bibliography of 3500 papers, including about a thousand in mainstream peer-reviewed journals. I have edited over 100 papers and two books, and I have translated a great deal of information from Japanese into English. The web site is here:

http://lenr-canr.org/
The library contains mainly papers by cold fusion researchers, who of course believe the effect is real, but also a few papers by skeptics who believe that it does not exist. I myself am completely convinced that it does exist.

I have a working relationship with over a hundred cold fusion researchers, and I am close friends with several.

The Wikipedia article on cold fusion has generated a lot of controversy and many problems. Actually, I must admit that the present version is impressive in many ways, but it still suffers from lack of professionalism. There are many distinguished experts in this field, but they have told me they would not consider contributing to Wikipedia because they do not want their work to be trashed by amateurs. I think this is an excellent test case for you to consider. If you can make the cold fusion article editing process work to the satisfaction of experts on both side of the controversy, you can probably manage just about any academic subject.

(Perhaps you doubt that such a controversial subject has attracted expert scientists. Cold fusion has been attacked and ridiculed in the press so often you may think it is only done by marginal people. I do not mean to boast, but to establish the bona fides of the field, let me append a list some leading researchers to the end of this message.)

It seems to me that Wikipedia's worst problem is that all articles reflect (or try to reflect) a unified point of view, or a false consensus. Since there are many subjects such as cold fusion on which experts do not agree, why not allow articles to be split, with some sections clearly marked as representing each camp? In the case of cold fusion you might want a section written by an authoritative skeptic such as Robert Park, along with a version by a cold fusion researcher such as Edmund Storms. I know their views quite well, and I am sure there is no common ground between them. They do not agree on anything, not even what constitutes the most basic set of objective facts about this subject. Trying to shoehorn their views seamlessly into a single article is futile. Neither will contribute to much less countenance such an attempt.

It is not clear to me whether you intend to allow clearly defined differing versions of articles under the same heading. If you insist that all articles present only one point of view in the final version, I do not think you will address the problem. This is like being governed by one-party system.

I have worked for many years in this field, and I am quite familiar with some issues that you need to think out, which are broader than cold fusion per se. For example, consider the terms: "the majority of scientists" and "scientific consensus." These are slippery. The closer you look at them, the less they mean. In the case of cold fusion, does the "majority" include all scientists in all fields? Or should it be limited to people such as electrochemists and material scientists, who have relevant knowledge because because they have performed similar research? Does it only include people who have read and can cite peer-reviewed papers on the subject? Or does it only include people who have written peer-reviewed papers on the subject? These are complicated questions.

I know a great deal more about the subject. I would be happy to explain how the researchers view Wikipedia in detail, if you would be interested.

- Jed Rothwell

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

SOME LEADING COLD FUSION RESEARCHERS

Cold fusion scientists have been often criticized for lacking credentials. However, many of them were previously considered to be world class experts in their fields.

Martin Fleischmann is widely considered one of the top electrochemists in the world.  He is a Fellow of the Royal Society and past president of the International Society of Electrochemistry, and he was awarded a medal by the Society. He has published numerous papers in leading journals. Distinguished Prof. John O'M Bockris, for example, wrote an authoritative and widely used textbook, ''Modern Electochemistry''. He is a Fellow of the http://www.ise-online.org/geninfo/fellows_details.php. Heinz Gerischer was considered a leading electrochemist. He was the Director of the Max Planck Institute for Physical Chemistry in Berlin, and a prize was established in his memory. He concluded that "there is now undoubtedly overwhelming indications that nuclear processes take place in the metal alloys." Nobel laureate Julian Schwinger was considered a leading theoretical physicist and was respected by most scientists, but he reported being denigrated and attacked after he began writing theoretical papers about cold fusion. Dr. P. K. Iyengar conducted and directed cold fusion research while he was director of BARC. [ http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IyengarPKprefaceand.pdf] He later became the chairman of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission

Profs. Miles, Oriani and Huggins have published textbooks and hundreds of articles, are designated Distinguished Professors and Fellows by universities and the U.S. Navy, and have been honored by the Electrochemical Society, NATO and other prestigeous organizations. Other cold fusion researchers include three editors of major plasma fusion and physics journals, a retired member of the French Atomic Energy Commission, and many top researchers from U.S. national laboratories.
--=====================_24286343==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 18:23:20 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBE2NGts032304; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:23:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBE2NDN8032280; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:23:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:23:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=lN8z9hfPUqHCmEU7P32lb9v7vI0X88Cviz1SFnXr5V6INL3YD+XUwh/uMDGQgndxH5PKQ37/dvsiDT5NdwKcJr68G1tnu+sz2itMCKey8Me2xBGXS6q+fynceJBGdbxzlXm0l7nog3woEE5uEebMxuZkGx43mll7t+HGBrtNgIA= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:23:11 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061213175724.03fec910 mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20061213175724.03fec910 mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/13/06, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Message sent to: admin citizendium.org > > Greetings. I am something of an expert on a very controversial scientific > subject: cold fusion energy . . . I was hoping you would take an interest in this. Yours is a perfect test case. Here is more information on the founder: http://www.larrysanger.org/ Good job. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 19:25:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBE3P7eC010595; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:25:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBE3P0pH010539; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:25:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:25:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:24:59 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bill Beaty's inspiring Videos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101232929.02cf9ea8 mail.newenergytimes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Responding to old message... On Thu, 2 Nov 2006, leaking pen wrote: > bill put up videos? i missed this. anyone have a link? They're mentioned on the "new additions" page for amasci.com. http://amasci.com/news.html Or just go directly to uTube: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=wbeaty > > On 11/2/06, Steven Krivit wrote: > > Thanks to Bill Beaty's inspiring science videos on YouTube, I've decided to > > start putting up some of my own content. > > > > So when you're really bored and have nothing to do, here's the first piece. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke_ZhgAKjhs > > > > Short documentary on SPAWAR Systems Center San Diego Low Energy Nuclear > > Reactions (cold fusion) research. Filmed on Feb. 18, 2005. Produced by New > > Energy Times, a project of New Energy Institute. Hosted by Steven B. Krivit > > -- > That which yields isn't always weak. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ beaty chem.washington.edu Research Engineer billb eskimo.com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 20:57:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBE4umhp010238; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:56:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBE4ukkv010221; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:56:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:56:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:01:02 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bill Beaty's inspiring Videos In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com, William Beaty Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200612140001.02474.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101232929.02cf9ea8 mail.newenergytimes.com> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wednesday 13 December 2006 22:24, William Beaty wrote: > Responding to old message... > > On Thu, 2 Nov 2006, leaking pen wrote: > > bill put up videos? i missed this. anyone have a link? > > They're mentioned on the "new additions" page for amasci.com. > > http://amasci.com/news.html > > Or just go directly to uTube: > > http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=wbeaty > > > On 11/2/06, Steven Krivit wrote: > > > Thanks to Bill Beaty's inspiring science videos on YouTube, I've > > > decided to start putting up some of my own content. > > > > > > So when you're really bored and have nothing to do, here's the first > > > piece. > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke_ZhgAKjhs > > > > > > Short documentary on SPAWAR Systems Center San Diego Low Energy Nuclear > > > Reactions (cold fusion) research. Filmed on Feb. 18, 2005. Produced by > > > New Energy Times, a project of New Energy Institute. Hosted by Steven > > > B. Krivit > > > > -- > > That which yields isn't always weak. > I like the amasci page about the water cannon. Sounds like a good one for the 'Mythbusters' on the 'Discovery Channel' to test. They like to do stuff like that especially if they can possibly blow something up. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 20:58:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBE4vkRn010836; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:57:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBE4vi9F010812; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:57:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:57:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:01:53 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mars Wet In-reply-to: <7bp0o298poukfulgsn8t1g3cs97o5ij23v 4ax.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200612140001.53173.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <200612112201.44299.rockcastle lakeside1.net> <7bp0o298poukfulgsn8t1g3cs97o5ij23v 4ax.com> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 13 December 2006 15:54, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Standing Bear's message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:01:44 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] > > >This is going to get like Chekhov's 'Cherry Orchard'. > > Probably. :) > > >Everybody is talking > >past each other for their own ends....or jobs. > >Water will be found and > >incontrovertably proved when it is brought back or sampled by us. Until > >then it is like 'bigfoot'. Or better like random intermittant phenomena > > not unlike a bad connection in equipment. Now you see it now you don't. > > I think it's highly likely, given the preponderance of hydrogen in the > universe, that there will be some hydrogen compounds found on Mars. Since > there is also ample chemically bound oxygen, the manufacture of water will > very likely be possible, if it doesn't already exist in one form or > another. I think there is good reason to believe that water ice exists in > considerable quantities, though water in the form of chemical hydrates in > the rock is also very possible and even probable. > However I'm not sure whether or not the temperature ever gets high enough > for liquid water. Surely the two little robots running around up there have > been recording the temperature, so that by now we should know the answer to > this? > > >Personally I lean to the idea that we are not unique in the universe, and > >physical laws governing us do so for others as well. > > Agreed. > > > Exo geoligical > >processes seem earthlike on not only Mars but Titan as well. Branching > >dendritic stream passagways seem the same everywhere no matter what > >the fluid, water or ethanol or methane transported. > > ...and very fine dust acts in exactly the same way, if the gradient is > steep enough. What would be much more interesting proof of a real liquid > would be a meandering river. IOW flow where the gradient is very small. > > >By the same token, > >organic material older than our central star was found in a meteorite > >uncontaminated by terrestrial sources. Life in all likelyhood is > > panspermaic by its very nature, and we are probably nothing special. All > > else is ego and religion or both. Personally I would be happy even if we > > just found simple single celled life in the deepest reaches of the > > martian deep equatorial canyons. > > If ET is really in the process of "Terra forming" Mars, then there is > likely to be quite a bit. ;) > > BTW has anyone considered the possibility that Earth itself may at one time > have been "Terra formed"? > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk Terraforming the planet, or maybe humanoidoforming US. Think of it! Every myth of every religion involves someone or something from 'the sky'. Why could'nt it? How would we know? If we did find out, how many among us would try to suppress the evidence so as not to upset the religious. How many would try to suppress the evidence while frantically searching for any technology the terraformers or alleged terraformers left behind. How may would suppress the evidence while copyrightin, trademarkin, and patentin everything they could lay there grimy putrid greedy RIAA and MPAA type paws on to get the very last dollar or euro out of it. Read some time ago that there is a lot of very stable and non coding DNA in every one of us. Michael Crichton recently wrote a novel about copyrightin and patentin people, then pursuing them for their DNA. The novel was for sale at our local Kroger store and is called "the next thing..." or something. Has a big 'bar code' printed on the front of the dust jacket. Suppose our 'humanoformers' put a message in it for us to find, and some grubby greedy 'business' types are busy trying to find out so they can exploit it. Think of it! We may all be walking around with our own 'Da Vinci' code locked up in every cell in our bodies! All those copies would be impossible to claim 'intellectual property' over unless some businessman wanted to exterminate us all so the 'secret will stay owned'. All those copies would preserve this information as long as even one human was alive. And these monopolists have the chutzpa to call ...anybody... their favorite invented word, 'pirates'. The knowledge is probably here. The knowledge is probably scary. Why else would governments everywhere cover it up and discredit all who dare refer to it? What are they afraid of such that honesty for them is an impossibility?....Unless the darker impulses of our imperfect nature as outlined in the first part of my reply are really governing the whole affair. Standing Bear ps..look at the hack job that was done on the mars face found by an earlier satellite on Mars. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 01:22:05 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBE9Llof001808; Thu, 14 Dec 2006 01:21:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBE9Lj7D001799; Thu, 14 Dec 2006 01:21:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 01:21:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002e01c71f61$4523eea0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200612212121328423 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:21:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBE9LgGs001774 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This made me wonder how much electrical energy would be thus stored in this Earth-atmosphere capacitor: C*V^2/2=q*V/2 = (28 440 * 300 000) / 2 = 4 266 000 000 = 4.3*10^9 J This is two orders of magnitude less than the 4.3*10^11 J order of magnitude estimate at page 20 of this physics lecture material (a good reference for capacitor calculations BTW): http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/632.ral5q.summer06/Lecture1-16_Powerpoints/lecture_5_mat/PHYS632_C5_25_Capac.ppt This energy, according to the same source, is renewed daily by the sun (king sized photovoltaic module ;). But even their much higher estimate is still 2 million times less than the world's daily energy consumption (about 10^18J), very disappointing! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff > In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 05:13:28 -0700: > Hi, > [snip] >>Yes. What I really want is a Sphere within a Sphere or Cylinder within a Cylinder >>(or combinations thereof) using the VDG to transfer electrons >>from the inner sphere or cylinder (where I can work safely in a field-free region) >>to the outer sphere or cylinder, to ascertain a force against the >>Earth's Megacoulomb Charge without building up an attracting >>image charge: >> >>http://www.nofc.forestry.ca/fire/faq_lightning_e.php#one >> >>"The Earth is electrically charged and acts as a spherical capacitor. The Earth has a net negative charge of about a million coulombs, while an equal and positive charge resides in the atmosphere." > > They got the charge wrong. Quote:- > > "The electrical resistivity of the atmosphere decreases with height to an > altitude of about 48 kilometres (km), where the resistivity becomes more-or-less > constant. This region is known as the electrosphere. There is about a 300 000 > volt (V) potential difference between the Earth's surface and the electrosphere, > which gives an average electric field strength of about 6 V/metre (m) throughout > the atmosphere." > > Based on an altitude of 48 km, and a voltage of 300000 V, the charge is only > 28440 C. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 04:12:18 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBECC0Db008667; Thu, 14 Dec 2006 04:12:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBECBwSx008655; Thu, 14 Dec 2006 04:11:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 04:11:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Xq2SYBY1PrzVNF1sKe81++7ZreLmbUNKze0TwgASc7TrFGiYpOgD+DEWFIE/DJpdwkc5JDJfMJQ08qZJYtgUJxZ80epwdjfl0+PGJlgfHiAiT6ufQnt6ykzShqkq+nQvoRJN37yHGxTuuStQvDksWqUotuaa9y11ga1ii7p66fE= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 07:11:55 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: rockcastle lakeside1.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mars Wet In-Reply-To: <200612140001.53173.rockcastle lakeside1.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200612112201.44299.rockcastle lakeside1.net> <7bp0o298poukfulgsn8t1g3cs97o5ij23v 4ax.com> <200612140001.53173.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/14/06, Standing Bear wrote: > Terraforming the planet, or maybe humanoidoforming US. Think of it! Star Trek TNG, season 6, episode 20, "The Chase": http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TNG/episode/68598.html But the message is wasted on the participants just as the messages of our Avatars are wasted on humanity, eg the Jews and Moslems are both children of Abraham. As long as Yaltabaoth controls this world, there "can be no peace." Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 06:55:50 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBEEtZlF030227; Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:55:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBEEtLb1030130; Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:55:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:55:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=UcVsA/pUHNyhaRg5GqQmvr9nsl2tzqs+WwVq2OLVgf2u0xXx1T1cqodsPI7yBeQ33j/zXLXj1HVFI3r2Us1psAD4+pYpkez5BlIGu7ea5gi+grqOm6AwSgbS2SuuEREzmyIB3A8OJU/fkah+cS/YTCPiIGylQmClGVFIJj44sgs= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:55:15 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Steorn Kinetica Museum Presentation Status: RO X-Status: Sean gave a presentation on the history of perpetual motion machines Tuesday which included a vid of one of their early working models. Here is one of the attendees' description of how it worked: http://www.250kb.de/u/061214/j/86a0318f.jpg The magnetic gradient created by the stator array is changed by shifting the array in the direction of the axis of rotation at the correct moment allowing the attractive gradient to help lift the heavier weight and the repulsive gradient to help push the weight. The claim is that the energy needed to shift the array is less than the energy created by the magnetic gradient. This should be simple enough to test. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 08:26:02 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBEGPt2P023198; Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:25:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBEGPrK2023175; Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:25:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:25:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=pYVZhuaeF+wzYKCYvQzX/eScILmZ9aHG5YCVKClHbYAbnLYmBuG7WB0txzaCU7nrCXjhdHRrAfyDX+w+IxeTGlXYd/A1mRH6Ykukh5jxtnncJqv0S/u/4z7wVn65OYExXYszQrogJBRby7m0AHNE6xtXfuqI+OrRjuaKGKrgICE= ; X-YMail-OSG: TMiiqhUVM1nxjU4sRhWXqpkIgjP.B3j.IV2XxzDf4Zw_mJMiJ7obcIcUxAXXu4yqtbnRAyOJnH78OalRqK7QAjZqBZYv7fMAWDgwodPzk8h3RT4_4N12SJeS1vwpiGrhE7ES3PIi6dV2VQ-- Message-ID: <45817B06.9090006 pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:25:42 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (Windows/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mars Wet References: <200612112201.44299.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> <7bp0o298poukfulgsn8t1g3cs97o5ij23v@4ax.com> <200612140001.53173.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > As long as Yaltabaoth controls this world, there "can be no peace." Ha! whenever you go talking that gnostic stuff, I get a "small-urge" to mention the Valis.metaphor (or reality)... oh well, looks like lord-Wiki is already on the scene: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 08:53:56 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBEGrggE010872; Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:53:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBEGrbgA010832; Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:53:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:53:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ZGdR+y4u63qwKdR3Jokl9w5Y/ME57AiowLAtf6ANvE/PQL/otPOg6r2frPcRehIUYfoT53NMtHLHQwk+bPSgjASLrzZjqxk6TYZUqoFz3UO80It/pV6IFkH4O3WCKgeC0WHZdFk0zEXJJntO4CFeTd5FAfOn/9wwJ4wY9P8bkgg= ; X-YMail-OSG: 5n1KO94VM1m1A7zRwxgFwV5CkVX7kzlfyX2F7_Ul_GZuoQiixJKX_HbDEqtDwAWSTqDYZlgcW5YWoKyFNPo0pV9NG7B7B3dpG3hUGIMUIO27L51uIi_uclcKtZfGOaCPKQ53Av.kiBorIoU- Message-ID: <4581818E.2020302 pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:53:34 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (Windows/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Quote of the Day Status: O X-Status: Quote of the Day "If I was 25 again and I was setting up a career in the private sector, not as a public servant, I would go into clean energy. I would be a billionaire before you could turn around." --- Bill Clinton (from a speech in Scotland) Wow. Totally green. The xxx-Prez must have old-pal-Al writing his speeches these daze. Too bad he did not avail himself of the opportunity to do more (much more) for the environment when he had the chance. Such as shifting several $ billion out of dead-in-the-water "hot fusion" pork, and into private sector incentives. Watch this vid. (45 min long ) and tell me why MIT and the hot fusion community should not be punished for their role in the early nineties (with severe funding cutbacks): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2229511748333360205&q=cold+fusion&hl=en Not to mention (unless Bill is a 'changed-man' in his grey-years ?) 'clean energy' is also becoming the "IN thing" on college campi, attracting lots of coeds and future Nan-E's. Not to mention, what wouldn't anyone give to be 25 again, even if most of those coeds in Eng, then as now, make Chelsea look like a prom queen ? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 09:45:38 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBEHjY2M006327; Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:45:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBEHjPHX006257; Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:45:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:45:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LTSyuU3scch8i5AzK3FdS2fRXzQHRMmose8Y4PfZ5V7HFI83TMfepJfXjUyVp3RXVV7taCqU4w8ohdbREz/g6aUAzTcGi5KrZ+v0eV40o9CTokoymi3Jq985u02jjlAdFRNmdSJz2LIhZcbkHXhwb+Rh75pVKC3AU2iXiofarsM= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 12:45:21 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quote of the Day In-Reply-To: <4581818E.2020302 pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4581818E.2020302 pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: <1A_TcD.A.qhB.02YgFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/14/06, Jones Beene wrote: > Quote of the Day > > "If I was 25 again Attributed to George Carlin: Do you realize that the only time in our lives when we like to get old is when we're kids? If you're less than 10 years old, you're so excited about aging that you think in fractions. "How old are you?" "I'm four and a half!" You're never thirty-six and a half. You're four and a half, going on five! That's the key. You get into your teens, now they can't hold you back. You jump to the next number, or even a few ahead. "How old are you?" "I'm gonna be 16!" You could be 13, but hey, you're gonna be 16! And then the greatest day of your life . . . you become 21. Even the words sound like a ceremony . . . YOU BECOME 21. YESSSS!!! But then you turn 30. Oooohh, what happened there? Makes you sound like bad milk. He TURNED; we had to throw him out. There's no fun now, you're just a sour-dumpling. What's wrong? What's changed? You BECOME 21, you TURN 30, then you're PUSHING 40. Whoa! Put on the brakes, it's all slipping away. Before you know it, you REACH 50 . . .. and your dreams are gone. But wait!!! You MAKE it to 60. You didn't think you would! So you BECOME 21, TURN 30, PUSH 40, REACH 50 and MAKE it to 60. You've built up so much speed that you HIT 70! After that it's a day-by-day thing; you HIT Wednesday! You get into your 80s and every day is a complete cycle; you HIT lunch; you TURN 4:30; you REACH bedtime. And it doesn't end there. Into the 90s, you start going backwards; "I Was JUST 92." Then a strange thing happens. If you make it over 100, you become a little kid again. "I'm 100 and a half!" May you all make it to a healthy 100 and a half!! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 20:47:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBF4lNgF014850; Thu, 14 Dec 2006 20:47:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBF4lGIV014790; Thu, 14 Dec 2006 20:47:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 20:47:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:51:52 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mars Wet In-reply-to: To: "Terry Blanton" , vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200612142351.52365.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <200612140001.53173.rockcastle lakeside1.net> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 14 December 2006 07:11, Terry Blanton wrote: > On 12/14/06, Standing Bear wrote: > > Terraforming the planet, or maybe humanoidoforming US. Think of it! > > Star Trek TNG, season 6, episode 20, "The Chase": > > http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TNG/episode/68598.html > > But the message is wasted on the participants just as the messages of > our Avatars are wasted on humanity, eg the Jews and Moslems are both > children of Abraham. > > As long as Yaltabaoth controls this world, there "can be no peace." > > Terry I do not know what Yaltabaoth is, but have all the Treks on DVD of all the series and all the movies. Do not need a web site. Like you I am pessimistic about our prospects for peace. Too many religionists running around with violent philosophies, and too few opponents willing to stand up to them. We are in for a time of rampant expansion of middle eastern religionists who seek to the path of threats, violence, and war. These folks are like the ones the Roman Catholic Pope described when quoting a certain Paleologus. That person was the last Eastern Roman Emperor before Constantinople fell to become moslem Istanbul. His family got its revenge, kind of. Paleologus' daughter married well......Ivan the Terrible of Russia, and Ivan severely punished the Turks and took much territory from them. What would truly unite humans, however, would be if we got a very public and undeniable visit by folks from another system. The culture shock would change politics and world views literally overnight. Those folks are out there and so far have probably maintained a discreet distance like there was some kind of trek like 'prime directive' in operation. I feel that some contact has been made at a governmental level in some countries. So any folks out there who are not from here and are reading this feel free to make yourselves more publicly known. You will be doing humanity a really huge favor. For if you do not, this planet will lose a large part of its population in fratricidal and genocidal wars within a decade or two. The outcome is by no means certain that supporters of scientific progress will win. Humanity's loss will be your loss as well, as off planet the population density thins greatly, and loss of sentients anywhere is a loss for the galaxy. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 00:04:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBF845xT027393; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 00:04:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBF83x1N027333; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 00:03:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 00:03:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <458256C4.4090900 usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 02:03:16 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: NASA investigated Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians; It is my pleasure to inform you about a reported investigation of NASA. According to Richard Hoagland of www.enterprisemission.com , a memo has been issued ordering various NASA, JPL, and university officials have been ordered to produce memos regarding their failure to release information to the public. Richard continued by mentioning that the photos on NASA websites are encrypted in a new format, JPG 2000, which is expensive to purchase, and prevents the sort on creative image processing that his group has done with previous photos. I've known about this BS for 25+ years, and it just burns me that there was nothing that I, or any of the supporters of the Enterprise Mission could do about it. Apparently this change of events is a result of the Democratic take over of the congress. I'm thinking that I should write a letter to Ms Polozi thanking her for this. I think I'll suggest that she have a researcher look into the Brown Nuclear Battery. Paul Brown claimed that the output energy exceeded the input by 25,000 times. All working models of the BNB were loaded on rockets and sent into the outer reaches of the solar system. OTOH, the last I heard, they were still working. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 05:40:37 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFDeLtn023664; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 05:40:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFDeIYS023629; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 05:40:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 05:40:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:39:19 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Diode Array Superior energy Source Status: O X-Status: I was granted U.S. Patent 3890161 in 1973, which is now public property, for a chip that typically consists of billions of nanometer scale diodes in consistent alignment parallel or, for higher voltage, parallel series to rectify and aggregate nanowatt level internal radio frequency thermal noise (also known as Johnson noise) within electronic components (not involving antennas) into D.C. electricity. Many diodes will overwhelm a matched impedance electrical load's own thermal noise. I began this revolutionary physics quest 40 years ago after free time reading of Isaac Asimov on the Second Law of Thermodynamics (2LoT), one of the most strongly believed Science Laws. Dr. Asimov's wonderful writing led me to believe that 2LoT could be circumvented with nanotechnology. Less power is needed to sort the random power than is supplied by the random thermal power. The power needed to alter the width of the depletion region at the junction, which determines the conductivity of a diode, is deducted from the thermal noise leaving net rectified power as intermittent electrical power of one polarity. This means that a variant of Maxwell's demon, Smoluchowski's trapdoor, applied to electrons, will work. The electrons do not have to supply ?information energy? to move within a diode. A macroscopically uniform temperature is microscopically non uniform so nanometer scale devices have an endless supply of moving electrons with nanometer scale negative entropy. The manufactured order of the diode and the array will passively impose order on the electrons rectifying and aggregating them resulting in a summation of the microscale negative entropy to ay desired level. Inefficiently rectified intermittant currents can be aggregated to any higher power level proportional to the number of diodes. The electrons move uphill into the buss voltage within the source diode so they loose momentum so they become colder. The loss of thermal energy is equal to the gain of electrical energy released from the buss when electricity is drawn off. Diode arrays can easily withstand open circuit or short circuit conditions. In these cases no electrical output or refrigeration is produced. The concept was partially tested in 1993 where more power than ~2 nanowatts, the power a single diode can deliver to a matched impedance load, 1 /2 kTB watts where 1 / 2 accounts for rectification, k=Boltzmann's constant, 1.38 x 10^-23; T=temperature in Kelvins, ~300 and B=Bandwidth, ~1 THz, the upper frequency limit of thermal noise, was measured from a chip consisting of ~5,600 2.3 um dia Au dot anodes surrounded by SiO2 on a n type GaAs substrate. The chip produced ~50 nanowatts as ~50 millivolts across 50 K ohms, substrate positive, under professional test conditions including a uniform temperature bath of stirred pure inert oil, showing feasibility. Tests for nanowatt power level refrigeration were not conducted. Unfortunately the documentation of this test is limited to a single page of test results. A more advanced test requires the assembly of arrays containing a great number of nanometer scale diodes as carbon nanotubes, selected to be semiconducting, placed between Au and Al rails which would become anode and cathode points. A more practical diode array form is to nanofabricate short general ~2 nm dia. C nanotube anodes vertically spaced ~ 30nm in staggered rows on an n type InSb substrate producing arrays of 10^11 diodes / cm^2 at 50% efficiency this means a power density of ~100 watts / cm2. The diode array would greatly advance civilization. Future appliances would have clean, cheap, widely available, safe, quiet, reliable, CO and CO2 free power with or without a power grid. Air conditioning would more logically release electricity. Air conditioning would produce abundant electricity in warm climates. Food and medicine could be kept cold reliably in stand alone chests. Crops could have better and cheaper soil, watering, harvesting, and storage. Many kinds of electric vehicles would become practical. These vehicles would be clean enough to run in confined spaces. These vehicles would obtain their energy as they moved so energy storage would not be needed. Diode array powered shipping would be fast, cheap, and pervasive. Bird like automated aircraft with million kilometre maintenance intervals unless shot or snared could be built.Diode arrays in computers with minor inputs and outputs would recycle the heat from the operating chips so the system would not release heat or need external power while using lots of high power high speed logic. The diode array will not automatically prevent its applications from becoming weapons. That is too much to ask of a technology. Diode arrays may remove the frustration that leads to terrorism.. Civilization would become more diversified because diode arrays would support campers, people in fortresses, underground extensions of homes, nomadic bands, teenage floaters, hermits, recluses, deep survivalists, shantytown denizens, space travellers, underwater colonies as well as placid box dwellers. I want this to be commercialized without fussy licensing restrictions on the diode array or its applications so all humanity can be involved in its synergistic development. NonDisclosure Agreements and noncompete requirements are not in this spirit. I would like very soft patents that did little beyond acknowledge the creative originality of inventors. Society should not be enmeshed in a burdensome license tangle. Diode array applications become unpatentable if they are widely published instead of being patented promptly and they are developed by skilled craftsmen rather than creative people. First, a prototype development group with great team strength needs to emerge. Later, many application development groups should emerge. Micro angel capitalization is the cleanest form of financing. A smooth, free, open, and fair market should support useful applications using commodity chips made by commodity equipment. The technical details would diffuse to the educational system where the next generation of application developers would learn about the craft efficiently. The first developers would recover their specific research and development costs with a modest positioning premium on their price. Positioning is an effect that arises in consumers because of a need to reduce the number of alternatives when getting through life assisted by their purchases. Profiteers may try to sell diode array based products at exorbitant prices. The response is to aggressively bring in more reasonable suppliers. The Federation will readily do this. It may become illegal, as a sign of social compassion, to deprive a debtor of basic appliances that are very important to basic survival yet have little commercial value. Poor people may be assisted in obtaining diode array powered appliances with micro loans. These appliances would be highly likely to support great productivity gains in many uses. Aloha, Charles M. Brown 808-828-0297 Kilauea Kauai Hawaii 96754 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 06:04:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFE4FnY023230; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 06:04:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFE4CbL023140; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 06:04:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 06:04:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Wb/8zV/6eCjejlCz5o0gfH2CVLzJBu2fS+M7ETfOsT+sQw/jFPLtQMjn9xTeGekq; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006125151446194 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 07:04:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f2609836e3f25587d82e3b3824d376ad350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.126 Resent-Message-ID: <5Ivfs.A.NpF.ctqgFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: NASA investigated Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Thomas Malloy wrote: > >I'm thinking that I should write a letter to Ms Polozi thanking her for > this. I think I'll suggest that she have a researcher look into the Brown Nuclear > Battery. Paul Brown claimed that the output energy exceeded the input by 25,000 times. > All working models of the BNB were loaded on rockets and sent into the outer reaches of > the solar system. OTOH, the last I heard, they were still working. > Better do your homework first (after you read this) Thomas. :-) http://groups.google.co.uk/group/sci.skeptic/tree/browse_frm/month/1990-08/6f8e760842199985?rnum=11&hl=en&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fsci.skeptic%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F1990-08%3Fhl%3Den%26 " The problem with the amount of energy per gram of radioactive material implied by the 1989 Peripheral Systems Annual Report is on page 4. It says that 70 watts of electricity was produced from 1 gram of strontium-90 and 50,000 watts from 2 lbs of stuff (55 watts/gram). This is far above the amount of energy available in the radiation. Here are my calculations which have been checked by 3 different Nuclear engineers (two point out that I should really use only 0.535 Mev/decay since the energy in a neutrino can not be used, but even with this generosity Brown is way off): Specific activity of Sr-90: 139 curies/gram Curie: 3.7e10 decays/sec Max energy per decay: 2.8 MeV/decay Energy equality: 1 MeV = 1.6e-13 joules Power: 1 joule/sec = 1 watt A good source for the above is "CRC - Handbook for Radioactive Nuclides" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Thomas Malloy wrote:
>
>I'm thinking that I should write a letter to Ms Polozi thanking her for
> this. I think I'll suggest that she have a researcher look into the Brown Nuclear
> Battery. Paul Brown claimed that the output energy exceeded the input by 25,000 times. > All working models of the BNB were loaded on rockets and sent into the outer reaches of > the solar system. OTOH, the last I heard, they were still working. 
>
Better do your homework first (after you read this) Thomas.   :-)
 
 
 

" The problem with the amount of energy per gram of radioactive material
implied by the 1989 Peripheral Systems Annual Report is on page 4.  It
says that 70 watts of electricity was produced from 1 gram of strontium-90
and 50,000 watts from 2 lbs of stuff (55 watts/gram).  This is far above
the amount of energy available in the radiation.  Here are my calculations
which have been checked by 3 different Nuclear engineers (two point out
that I should really use only 0.535 Mev/decay since the energy in a
neutrino can not be used, but even with this generosity Brown is way off):

Specific activity of Sr-90: 139 curies/gram
Curie:                      3.7e10 decays/sec
Max energy per decay:       2.8 MeV/decay
Energy equality:            1 MeV = 1.6e-13 joules
Power:                      1 joule/sec = 1 watt

A good source for the above is "CRC - Handbook for Radioactive Nuclides"

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 08:01:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFG1ihw013706; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:01:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFG1ISH012719; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:01:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:01:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:06:01 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: NASA investigated In-reply-to: <410-22006125151446194 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200612151106.01470.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <410-22006125151446194 earthlink.net> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: <__rGI.A.lGD.ObsgFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 15 December 2006 09:04, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Thomas Malloy wrote: > >I'm thinking that I should write a letter to Ms Polozi thanking her for > > this. I think I'll suggest that she have a researcher look into the Brown > > Nuclear Battery. Paul Brown claimed that the output energy exceeded the > > input by 25,000 times. > All working models of the BNB were loaded on > > rockets and sent into the outer reaches of > the solar system. OTOH, the > > last I heard, they were still working. > > Better do your homework first (after you read this) Thomas. :-) > > > http://groups.google.co.uk/group/sci.skeptic/tree/browse_frm/month/1990-08/ >6f8e760842199985?rnum=11&hl=en&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fsci.skeptic%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fm >onth%2F1990-08%3Fhl%3Den%26 > > " The problem with the amount of energy per gram of radioactive material > implied by the 1989 Peripheral Systems Annual Report is on page 4. It > says that 70 watts of electricity was produced from 1 gram of strontium-90 > and 50,000 watts from 2 lbs of stuff (55 watts/gram). This is far above > the amount of energy available in the radiation. Here are my calculations > which have been checked by 3 different Nuclear engineers (two point out > that I should really use only 0.535 Mev/decay since the energy in a > neutrino can not be used, but even with this generosity Brown is way off): > > Specific activity of Sr-90: 139 curies/gram > Curie: 3.7e10 decays/sec > Max energy per decay: 2.8 MeV/decay > Energy equality: 1 MeV = 1.6e-13 joules > Power: 1 joule/sec = 1 watt > > A good source for the above is "CRC - Handbook for Radioactive Nuclides" Perhaps another indication of charlatanism question raised by Fred is that all the material is extremely old, 1990ish. Unless of course somebody comes up with 'its been classified....'. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 08:03:06 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFG2j1A028245; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:02:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFG2iQk028209; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:02:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:02:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=CZ/2fXgmdZ4zXtkuijmGBn8SNrH17V3L4QeDo5ucdThnADKaicgnMyc/6C9T9Q19/kBW2F0sA34f2Tg2cW+H1w3Cdxkg7aTTddT1Hq37ZL1ix1Fz1rCPlFB4OEGn/9L+sKXV9wVO3Of0DPXyF3LlkdTDpVt/jp2wHlvt8mUX5wU= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:02:37 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: "R Stiffler" , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn Kinetica Museum Presentation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: <8OSZtB.A.t4G.jcsgFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 12/15/06, R Stiffler wrote: > Thanks for posting the jpg, I was shocked at the apparent simplicity yet > precision mechanical requirements unless the device has a very high reserve > of energy from the gradient provided. > > My first impression was how could this have been missed after all these > decades of effort and research by so many, although often it is the simplest > of devices that work. I was happy to see the statement that it self started, > although if it indeed does, why would it not keep increasing in speed until > it destroyed itself? I wonder and have yet to see how they would stop it > once started, this breaking would be a direct measure of its capacity. > > I also found a strange similarity in principle to a number of older devices > with magnets that shifted their center of gravity as the wheel rotated, to > my knowledge they all failed. Also similar to > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Milkovic_Two-Stage_Mechanical_Oscilla > tor in principle that we have not the two oscillators yet the addition of > gravity to the overall operation. > > Interesting, sorry for bothering you direct, but was away from my home base > and unable to get into vortex to reply direct to you posting. I'm sure the mechanical limitations of inertia, friction and windage will limit the speed. The high gradients in the next Sprain Magmo *do* have us worried about the unloaded RPM. BTW, I added this to the thread on Vortex since they might be interested in your reference. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 10:03:08 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFI03a0005563; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:02:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFHfURN018835; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:41:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:41:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=mcW4QmY6GvDe5SdcIc1A9/7zLCHIy9zXSfF60M/ChdqzZC9JTG0QoG03HuP5+9Tib6TWTMncTQ9q5g0rysVAhJqdRcBnTmvqCkFJ/UTlPsTD6RuQs8uH1JTFKxeSfrYEC2MjB4byCJfH4Vf//RdJ95Gr4fPSDqatCqKoaOaC99E= ; X-YMail-OSG: 8DHtyCAVM1mfOd43D5tk4NdueBiPyxIRZ3FCS8MbCM0GU775FwTfu0bUMThVHBMJ57x8BiW9uXmRSRtemMRjI2oeAVQmnqklaaHD0GL9doXHi_u3.912A1hvbqdHhd.4uSgMrCujZT.hfvQ- Message-ID: <4582DE45.3030802 pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:41:25 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (Windows/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diode Array Superior energy Source References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hope you do not have to take on the likes of GE to get this done: http://www.newscientisttech.com/article/dn6126 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 10:29:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFISiuP020278; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:28:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFISdVw020100; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:28:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:28:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=IbU7gvxxWFro9BIwkOzT3IcKP5YW/xYsWuE8d0XHaURENWbOiapD8SnVmJwzBu4u; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: "Vortex" Subject: [Vo]:PM polarity switching Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:28:28 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400f20b1ae9cc51cfb7cffd0425fab4c37350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It was 6-8 years ago, sometime around SMOT that some of the FE experimenters were looking at how you could change apparent PM pole polarity by using a ferrite interconnection. If you did not see this or are not familiar with what they were doing I looked up some of my notes on how I tested what they were talking about, which I cover in short below. The reason I bring this up is that I wonder why with all the claims and continued work with PM devices that no one has made use of this as a switching method. The low energy it takes to do the pole switch is far below other methods that seem to be in use. 1) Take two bar or block PM's and one ferrite bar about 6cm long, can be round, square or rectangular. 2) I used a Compass but a Hall device will work. Determine the poles and mark each PM so you can keep track of how they are oriented. 3) Place the ferrite on the S pole of one PM and place the ferrite pointing at the detector just close enough for the detector to show the correct deflection. 4) Now it is evident that if you now slip the second PM (attractive mode with the first PM) onto the ferrite at the detector end that the detector will still indicate the same deflection (polarity). 5) Now remove the second PM and reverse it so that it is in opposition to the PM still attached to the ferrite. Without the ferrite you would not be able to of course get the two PM's to hold together. But with the ferrite you will be able to stick the opposing PM to the ferrite and the indicator will indicate the reverse polarity as in the above first steps. You can now move the PM ferrite combination to see that both exposed PM faces are at the same polarity. You can configure so that you have a SS or a NN on the faces, with a single balancing pole in the center of the ferrite. Now some additional manual checks will easily show that it takes a minimal amount of energy to move the PM's into an opposing orientation with the ferrite in the center, far less that it would take to move the two PM's together in NN or SS without the ferrite. I always thought this might indeed be a simple way (low force requirement) to change a field in a switching operation as indicated in some of the devices being talked about today. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 10:29:37 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFITF6d018644; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:29:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFIT80A018568; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:29:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:29:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061215132245.04238e60 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:27:37 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: U.S. now has more than 10,000 MW of wind power Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.awea.org/projects/ The total installed capacity, 10,492 MW, equals about 4 average US nuclear reactors, taking into account capacity factors, downtime at nuclear plants and so on. The US has just over 100 nuclear reactors. The trend is dramatic: http://www.awea.org/faq/instcap.html Texas has moved into first place with total installed capacity of 2,631 MW, and it has 1,147 MW under construction. Texas has excellent wind, so I expect the capacity factor is higher than the US average. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 12:22:58 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFKMefd012538; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:22:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFKMYd8012496; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:22:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:22:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: NASA investigated Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:22:26 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-22006125151446194 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-22006125151446194 earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 15 Dec 2006 20:22:26 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBFKMRGB012450 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Fri, 15 Dec 2006 07:04:06 -0700: Hi Fred, [snip] >http://groups.google.co.uk/group/sci.skeptic/tree/browse_frm/month/1990-08/6f8e760842199985?rnum=11&hl=en&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fsci.skeptic%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F1990-08%3Fhl%3Den%26 > >" The problem with the amount of energy per gram of radioactive material >implied by the 1989 Peripheral Systems Annual Report is on page 4. It >says that 70 watts of electricity was produced from 1 gram of strontium-90 >and 50,000 watts from 2 lbs of stuff (55 watts/gram). This is far above >the amount of energy available in the radiation. Here are my calculations >which have been checked by 3 different Nuclear engineers (two point out >that I should really use only 0.535 Mev/decay since the energy in a >neutrino can not be used, but even with this generosity Brown is way off): > >Specific activity of Sr-90: 139 curies/gram >Curie: 3.7e10 decays/sec >Max energy per decay: 2.8 MeV/decay >Energy equality: 1 MeV = 1.6e-13 joules >Power: 1 joule/sec = 1 watt > >A good source for the above is "CRC - Handbook for Radioactive Nuclides" While it's possible that it was all a fraud, or a mistake, it's also possible that Brown had a means of accelerating nuclear decay which he improperly understood, and therefore couldn't engineer into a commercial product. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 12:26:10 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFKPh7U013941; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:25:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFKPg1D013922; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:25:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:25:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: NASA investigated Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:25:32 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-22006125151446194 earthlink.net> <200612151106.01470.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> In-Reply-To: <200612151106.01470.rockcastle lakeside1.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 15 Dec 2006 20:25:32 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBFKPYBd013840 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Standing Bear's message of Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:06:01 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Perhaps another indication of charlatanism question raised by Fred is that >all the material is extremely old, 1990ish. Unless of course somebody >comes up with 'its been classified....'. [snip] No, it's old because Paul died in a car accident. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 12:51:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFKpb2C011866; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:51:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFKpUiX011836; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:51:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:51:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=tl8PoDekl2TdCsRtOLGqtlinRiqQparsTxpyf49hFrLVnbsVyQ8heyMh3nt5QeBq; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: "Vortex" Subject: [Vo]: We are Scientists? Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:51:28 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940617a0b2e765254d0c16267ecb0320edf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Just returning from the next to last lecture for the tour of 2006 and must admit that I am happy that this year is over, along with reaching 64 years of age one begins to mellow out and see the world in a different view. I was asked if I thought there was a God? I was honest and answered that I was agnostic, even though I was raised as a German Lutheran. I further stated that I did indeed believe in some higher or controlling power, although I did have trouble in handling the traditional view of someone “Up There” pulling the puppets strings. I went on to explain that I was 100% a logical scientist up to the time I viewed my first image of a bacterium under a microscope. I started as an Electronics Engineer and logic and formulae worked well in making everything make perfect sense. But then I had this itch to do something in Biology, mistake indeed as it crumbled my world. When one looks at what is going on at the bio level and has a summary knowledge of the molecular level, if you are sane, you will not remain for long. I will state categorically that the universe did not begin by some haphazard copulation of some random atoms. What all scientists want to ignore is where did those initial atoms come from that started it all. We for some reason need to put all things into neat little boxes, nice concise equations with “Assumptions” and derived “Constants” to make it work together. The micro and the macro are meaningless we have no clue! I remember so clear the day I was expelled from Catechism when I asked where all the other people came from to aid in the creation of mankind as it took more (morally) than what we assume happened in the "Garden of Eden”. So I now had to answer that I did not believe in “God” until he cast me into eternal “Hell”, yet I did indeed believe in something far beyond what any mortal being can comprehend. I still with a double doc., know fully that we are but “Infinitesimal Parts” in a play that our science and logic in unable to comprehend only pretend. If we stopped this rush towards monetary gain, power over others and took our young or old or very old bodies out to an open space and lay upon the ground and looked up into the sky and slowed up enough to see the wonders above, or pulled a microscope to our eyes and looked at a “Prokaryote” moving in its world and doing what it does in its small way aid or destroy our life, we if we are indeed intelligent will see that our wanting to put everything in a box or attach a formula to it, is such a pitiful thing indeed. Have a Happy Holiday! Don’t let Nature get you down, just follow her, as you are. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 13:10:43 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFLAXhV003843; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:10:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFLAVBk003825; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:10:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:10:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=NAsUDQsHtcE4s6BFYwc+gN0LMsLJ/oA558V9C+5QuJKSyZV4kG+nUHR6ycGYMUbiCQ3cSerQ67IAnlJg9XZFiZyKkIIIobMIMLVMbTwVrdPVQrmKyolttqf0iEZPe0J8EoiGJz+AMWVX+HuBPU2/7l0WIa8EmXeTMUBLXCGU+eQ= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:10:30 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: We are Scientists? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: <6axxq.A.t7.H9wgFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: When one looks at what is going on at the bio level and has a summary knowledge of the molecular level, if you are sane, you will not remain for long. very much agreed on that above statement. and im a christian myself, though i do believe it quite possible life started by "accidental" comingling of atoms. possible, not definate. also, if one researches non king james versions, all the other people came from adam having sex with his daughters. yes, yes he did, its in there. (abel being dead and caine off and wandering for several hundred years) On 12/15/06, R Stiffler wrote: > Just returning from the next to last lecture for the tour of 2006 and must > admit that I am happy that this year is over, along with reaching 64 years > of age one begins to mellow out and see the world in a different view. > > I was asked if I thought there was a God? I was honest and answered that I > was agnostic, even though I was raised as a German Lutheran. I further > stated that I did indeed believe in some higher or controlling power, > although I did have trouble in handling the traditional view of someone "Up > There" pulling the puppets strings. > > I went on to explain that I was 100% a logical scientist up to the time I > viewed my first image of a bacterium under a microscope. I started as an > Electronics Engineer and logic and formulae worked well in making everything > make perfect sense. But then I had this itch to do something in Biology, > mistake indeed as it crumbled my world. > > When one looks at what is going on at the bio level and has a summary > knowledge of the molecular level, if you are sane, you will not remain for > long. > > I will state categorically that the universe did not begin by some haphazard > copulation of some random atoms. What all scientists want to ignore is where > did those initial atoms come from that started it all. We for some reason > need to put all things into neat little boxes, nice concise equations with > "Assumptions" and derived "Constants" to make it work together. > > The micro and the macro are meaningless we have no clue! I remember so clear > the day I was expelled from Catechism when I asked where all the other > people came from to aid in the creation of mankind as it took more (morally) > than what we assume happened in the "Garden of Eden". > > So I now had to answer that I did not believe in "God" until he cast me into > eternal "Hell", yet I did indeed believe in something far beyond what any > mortal being can comprehend. I still with a double doc., know fully that we > are but "Infinitesimal Parts" in a play that our science and logic in unable > to comprehend only pretend. > > If we stopped this rush towards monetary gain, power over others and took > our young or old or very old bodies out to an open space and lay upon the > ground and looked up into the sky and slowed up enough to see the wonders > above, or pulled a microscope to our eyes and looked at a "Prokaryote" > moving in its world and doing what it does in its small way aid or destroy > our life, we if we are indeed intelligent will see that our wanting to put > everything in a box or attach a formula to it, is such a pitiful thing > indeed. > > Have a Happy Holiday! Don't let Nature get you down, just follow her, as you > are. > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 13:25:24 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFLPGP1017137; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:25:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFLP6NJ017090; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:25:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:25:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ZGM19gl4cJ/l05E6alzjT43a16sonVRicc2t9wLUlrE88lMkG9kTshl9qV0S9qlF; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: We are Scientists? Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:25:02 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940898ff7c441e7240567d798ae1c65a9dd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I fully agree! I was cast out because my thought was a bit different, the sons may have ... with mother. Anyway however you look at it, it must indeed be the way it was. So is this where the "we are all Brothers & Sisters" came from. Hey this is not what I wanted to present in what I said. Okay where did these "Atoms" come from? Don't skirt the issue and say they "WERE". This is similar to saying 'God' is void of form? Maybe this is not a direct quote as it has been 50 some years from the time I read a Bible. This is not the issue. "WE", mortals have no real concept of where and how we evolved, we add volumes of information, yet we ignore (?) "well those first atom were just there". :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 3:11 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: We are Scientists? > > > When one looks at what is going on at the bio level and has a summary > knowledge of the molecular level, if you are sane, you will not remain for > long. > > > very much agreed on that above statement. and im a christian myself, > though i do believe it quite possible life started by "accidental" > comingling of atoms. possible, not definate. > > also, if one researches non king james versions, all the other people > came from adam having sex with his daughters. yes, yes he did, its in > there. (abel being dead and caine off and wandering for several > hundred years) > > On 12/15/06, R Stiffler wrote: > > Just returning from the next to last lecture for the tour of > 2006 and must > > admit that I am happy that this year is over, along with > reaching 64 years > > of age one begins to mellow out and see the world in a different view. > > > > I was asked if I thought there was a God? I was honest and > answered that I > > was agnostic, even though I was raised as a German Lutheran. I further > > stated that I did indeed believe in some higher or controlling power, > > although I did have trouble in handling the traditional view of > someone "Up > > There" pulling the puppets strings. > > > > I went on to explain that I was 100% a logical scientist up to > the time I > > viewed my first image of a bacterium under a microscope. I started as an > > Electronics Engineer and logic and formulae worked well in > making everything > > make perfect sense. But then I had this itch to do something in Biology, > > mistake indeed as it crumbled my world. > > > > When one looks at what is going on at the bio level and has a summary > > knowledge of the molecular level, if you are sane, you will not > remain for > > long. > > > > I will state categorically that the universe did not begin by > some haphazard > > copulation of some random atoms. What all scientists want to > ignore is where > > did those initial atoms come from that started it all. We for > some reason > > need to put all things into neat little boxes, nice concise > equations with > > "Assumptions" and derived "Constants" to make it work together. > > > > The micro and the macro are meaningless we have no clue! I > remember so clear > > the day I was expelled from Catechism when I asked where all the other > > people came from to aid in the creation of mankind as it took > more (morally) > > than what we assume happened in the "Garden of Eden". > > > > So I now had to answer that I did not believe in "God" until he > cast me into > > eternal "Hell", yet I did indeed believe in something far > beyond what any > > mortal being can comprehend. I still with a double doc., know > fully that we > > are but "Infinitesimal Parts" in a play that our science and > logic in unable > > to comprehend only pretend. > > > > If we stopped this rush towards monetary gain, power over > others and took > > our young or old or very old bodies out to an open space and > lay upon the > > ground and looked up into the sky and slowed up enough to see > the wonders > > above, or pulled a microscope to our eyes and looked at a "Prokaryote" > > moving in its world and doing what it does in its small way aid > or destroy > > our life, we if we are indeed intelligent will see that our > wanting to put > > everything in a box or attach a formula to it, is such a pitiful thing > > indeed. > > > > Have a Happy Holiday! Don't let Nature get you down, just > follow her, as you > > are. > > > > > > > -- > That which yields isn't always weak. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 13:31:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFLVZgH016103; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:31:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFLVUFl016064; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:31:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:31:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:36:31 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diode Array Superior energy Source In-reply-to: <4582DE45.3030802 pacbell.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200612151636.31319.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <4582DE45.3030802@pacbell.net> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: <4S8EhD.A.86D.yQxgFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Friday 15 December 2006 12:41, Jones Beene wrote: > Hope you do not have to take on the likes of GE to get this done: > > http://www.newscientisttech.com/article/dn6126 And maybe the Chinese will come in for some of that 'intellectooool property as well seeing as to the name of the chief scientist involved and the implication of a possible joint venture. Chinese might share though. In any case what Mr Brown has written about appears an application of the basic device and not a modification of that device. That would be as though the inventor of the transistor insisting that all radios were his idea. Standing Bear We stand on the threshhold of great things, let not trivia be the bane of our survival. Knowledge belongs to all mankind: to each by his need and from each by his ability. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 13:47:59 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFLln2D024850; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:47:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFLlmaV024833; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:47:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:47:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=qmzmOFlcv4k0vUiaC53Qs4WmoxY+XiIoJD3Wvi3t7R5y61/jnhD9LqEfaTrE1BhZpgSz3u1fghTscpe2iOlOnRCveRtDhVD6bDARU+WSeZ1bk4KWV7uLwhODShDHrOky2DPKYgLSfo0f4XyapghxZupxVfQm7PQbk0mERFgpQu0=; X-YMail-OSG: bppuyFUVM1lLdVfA9tApE9CufLY9osB4.lT5ahObbOrnPMWz3Qmod7z_xj14IUBFMa7p09WIaKMbAfX6pAUTN_ItMflBYfhRNem.PtYIBcbsqmd9TtSpwTHGL_2Ru1E- Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:47:49 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: We are Scientists? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <907765.58547.qm web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: R Stiffler wrote: [snip] > I was asked if I thought there was a God? I was honest and answered that I > was agnostic, even though I was raised as a German Lutheran. I further > stated that I did indeed believe in some higher or controlling power, > although I did have trouble in handling the traditional view of someone “Up > There” pulling the puppets strings. I agree. I've always found higher truths in the "esoteric" and never in mainstream. Fortunately mainstream does not hold the definition of God; i.e., some being sitting on a thrown. Dig deep and you'll find your answers. Regards, Paul Lowrance __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 14:06:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFM6jbf005404; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:06:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFM6ht1005392; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:06:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:06:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=bKdzBaz2iobrcHlXhhq7RrUrqz/D4BExTk5ck6Mi4iWaoZYzV3mlb8y5/HWevA2XZbJhEbfHIRMCjW6EagteqOLFRG5vRrIYF+DJeRhmgycmWjertbeeIlaLGnvgJs2w/fj4lagZgPLpVNprRCNFMl4wvFI0XVxVqBptkMFSKEU= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:06:34 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: We are Scientists? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: from the big bang, no clue. how organics formed? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5173992.stm On 12/15/06, R Stiffler wrote: > I fully agree! > > I was cast out because my thought was a bit different, the sons may have ... > with mother. Anyway however you look at it, it must indeed be the way it > was. So is this where the "we are all Brothers & Sisters" came from. Hey > this is not what I wanted to present in what I said. > > Okay where did these "Atoms" come from? Don't skirt the issue and say they > "WERE". This is similar to saying 'God' is void of form? Maybe this is not a > direct quote as it has been 50 some years from the time I read a Bible. > > This is not the issue. "WE", mortals have no real concept of where and how > we evolved, we add volumes of information, yet we ignore (?) "well those > first atom were just there". :-) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap gmail.com] > > Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 3:11 PM > > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: We are Scientists? > > > > > > When one looks at what is going on at the bio level and has a summary > > knowledge of the molecular level, if you are sane, you will not remain for > > long. > > > > > > very much agreed on that above statement. and im a christian myself, > > though i do believe it quite possible life started by "accidental" > > comingling of atoms. possible, not definate. > > > > also, if one researches non king james versions, all the other people > > came from adam having sex with his daughters. yes, yes he did, its in > > there. (abel being dead and caine off and wandering for several > > hundred years) > > > > On 12/15/06, R Stiffler wrote: > > > Just returning from the next to last lecture for the tour of > > 2006 and must > > > admit that I am happy that this year is over, along with > > reaching 64 years > > > of age one begins to mellow out and see the world in a different view. > > > > > > I was asked if I thought there was a God? I was honest and > > answered that I > > > was agnostic, even though I was raised as a German Lutheran. I further > > > stated that I did indeed believe in some higher or controlling power, > > > although I did have trouble in handling the traditional view of > > someone "Up > > > There" pulling the puppets strings. > > > > > > I went on to explain that I was 100% a logical scientist up to > > the time I > > > viewed my first image of a bacterium under a microscope. I started as an > > > Electronics Engineer and logic and formulae worked well in > > making everything > > > make perfect sense. But then I had this itch to do something in Biology, > > > mistake indeed as it crumbled my world. > > > > > > When one looks at what is going on at the bio level and has a summary > > > knowledge of the molecular level, if you are sane, you will not > > remain for > > > long. > > > > > > I will state categorically that the universe did not begin by > > some haphazard > > > copulation of some random atoms. What all scientists want to > > ignore is where > > > did those initial atoms come from that started it all. We for > > some reason > > > need to put all things into neat little boxes, nice concise > > equations with > > > "Assumptions" and derived "Constants" to make it work together. > > > > > > The micro and the macro are meaningless we have no clue! I > > remember so clear > > > the day I was expelled from Catechism when I asked where all the other > > > people came from to aid in the creation of mankind as it took > > more (morally) > > > than what we assume happened in the "Garden of Eden". > > > > > > So I now had to answer that I did not believe in "God" until he > > cast me into > > > eternal "Hell", yet I did indeed believe in something far > > beyond what any > > > mortal being can comprehend. I still with a double doc., know > > fully that we > > > are but "Infinitesimal Parts" in a play that our science and > > logic in unable > > > to comprehend only pretend. > > > > > > If we stopped this rush towards monetary gain, power over > > others and took > > > our young or old or very old bodies out to an open space and > > lay upon the > > > ground and looked up into the sky and slowed up enough to see > > the wonders > > > above, or pulled a microscope to our eyes and looked at a "Prokaryote" > > > moving in its world and doing what it does in its small way aid > > or destroy > > > our life, we if we are indeed intelligent will see that our > > wanting to put > > > everything in a box or attach a formula to it, is such a pitiful thing > > > indeed. > > > > > > Have a Happy Holiday! Don't let Nature get you down, just > > follow her, as you > > > are. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > That which yields isn't always weak. > > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 14:19:11 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFMJ69q010212; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:19:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFMJ1PI010185; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:19:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:19:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=WWICd14BdRHh0er1d1gJEP2UxqvhIpqaIlgjMEn6E0ZNWEIhytm5zTHK9sZnUJab; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <5560727.1166221135300.JavaMail.root elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:18:54 -0500 (EST) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8b2b4b65079cf70253d140a732b71b1ff350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.42 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday December 15, 2006 Status: RO X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Dec 15, 2006 4:01 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday December 15, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 15 Dec 06 Washington, DC 1. NASA'S MOONDOGGLE: EXPOSING THE DARK SIDE OF WHAT'S NEW. "Viewed from the point of history several decades out," Michael Griffin told the NY Times last week, "the retreat from the Moon to low Earth orbit will be seen to be a mistake." A year ago he told USA Today that the shuttle and the ISS were both mistakes http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn093005.html . So what are we doing about it? At $2 billion a pop, we're launching the shuttles as often as we can to finish the ISS so we can drop it in the ocean, or foist it off on some fool. Then we can get on with making really dumb mistakes like a manned lunar base. For what? Using fragile humans in space is hopelessly old-fashioned. Alas, WN makes mistakes too. Last week we said "dark side" of the moon, when we meant "far side." We got a lot of mail. It was a goof, but we were talking about radio telescopes. In terms of anthropogenic radio waves, the far side is the dark side. 2. SUBPOENA: NEW TACTIC IN EFFORT TO STOP CLASSIFIED LEAKS. Grand jury subpoenas are usually issued to gather evidence, but federal prosecutors want to use the subpoena to hide evidence. The subpoena calls on the ACLU to turn over all copies of a classified document leaked by an unnamed source. If successful it would be a new tool to squelch leaks. We need a few leaks. Conscientious government employees willing to risk their careers by leaking classified documents are the only check on government excesses carried out behind a screen of national security. The Pentagon Papers in 1971 and the Nuclear Posture Review in 2002 were both hidden from the public using the ruse of national- security http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN02/wn031502.html. 3. HUMAN EVOLUTION: GOD KNOWS THERE'S ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT. Homo sapiens has been around for maybe 170,000 years. We live in a world that little resembles the Pleistocene wilderness in which our species first appeared. But must we make do with the same old genes? There seems to be hope. A team led by Sarah Tiskoff at the University of Maryland found four distinct mutations that confer adult lactose tolerance in different populations. These mutations appeared as recently as 3,000 years ago, and spread rapidly because of the reproductive advantage lactose tolerance confers. It seems to be just a matter of time before everyone in the world can tolerate lactose. Well, it's a start. The world is dangerously short of tolerance. 4. PROJECT BIOSHIELD: LET'S PRAY THERE ISN'T AN ANTHRAX TTACK. The response of the Bush Administration to 9/11 included Project BioShield at $5.6 billion. Nearly $1B went to VaxGen to produce 75 million doses of anthrax vaccine by 2006, even though VaxGen had just failed to produce an AIDS vaccine for which it got millions from NIH. VaxGen now says maybe 2009. On Monday, HHS decides whether to terminate VacGen or give them an infusion of cash. I would bet on the cash. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 14:20:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFMK39Z014855; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:20:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFMJeub014579; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:19:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:19:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200612152219.kBFMJdvF093948 mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:19:37 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: svj orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: We are Scientists? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_8b23e772165c3e20fcde0900f73590ac" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=_8b23e772165c3e20fcde0900f73590ac Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A thoughtful message by R Stifler. Thanks. When I die I hope I go to that special eternal convention in the cosmos, the one I suspect where most atheist prefer to congregate at. Imagine. A place where there is no religion. An enchanted landscape where food and fine wine flow freely, where audacious marathon parties persist throughout the wee hours of dawn, where everyone is perceived as equals, where everyone's perception of reality is perceived as having value, where everyone HAS value. It's a place where one of the major topics of discussion that never fails to spark a spirited debate occasionally comes up, that "The Ultimate-Truth-Of-All must be that god is an atheist." And to all, a joyous Winter Solstice! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_8b23e772165c3e20fcde0900f73590ac Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A thoughtful message by R Stifler. Thanks.

When I die I hope I go to that special eternal convention in the cosmos, th= e one I suspect where most atheist prefer to congregate at.

Imagine. A place where there is no religion. An enchanted landscape where f= ood and fine wine flow freely, where audacious marathon parties persist thr= oughout the wee hours of dawn, where everyone is perceived as equals, where= everyone's perception of reality is perceived as having value, where every= one HAS value.

It's a place where one of the major topics of discussion that never fails t= o spark a spirited debate occasionally comes up, that "The Ultimate-Truth-O= f-All must be that god is an atheist."

And to all, a joyous Winter Solstice!

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com



--=_8b23e772165c3e20fcde0900f73590ac-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 15:11:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBFNBHN4012312; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:11:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBFNB83R012189; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:11:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:11:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=M9oLsq74UzqbdNICHQQ+8cF1lqWdEqQw/7h858zeV9WxAX/pc0J/C3ujN5PByHIO; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: [Vo]: We are Scientists? Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:10:49 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C7206B.F81F0340" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bf58aa31b6c7cae4b8d3fd5b38aa74f0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C7206B.F81F0340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: R Stiffler [mailto:rstiffler earthlink.net] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 4:29 PM To: svj orionworks.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: We are Scientists? Yes indeed! Imagine no Politics, Greed, Singular Control, Subversion? Why not freedom? Is indeed control and management what keeps a populace in check. I can't imagine why you want to seek the 'Atheist' they won't admit to the truth if presented. At least an 'Agnostic' is willing, similar to a scientist and only wants proof...... -----Original Message----- From: OrionWorks [mailto:ow01 voyager.net] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 4:20 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: We are Scientists? A thoughtful message by R Stifler. Thanks. When I die I hope I go to that special eternal convention in the cosmos, the one I suspect where most atheist prefer to congregate at. Imagine. A place where there is no religion. An enchanted landscape where food and fine wine flow freely, where audacious marathon parties persist throughout the wee hours of dawn, where everyone is perceived as equals, where everyone's perception of reality is perceived as having value, where everyone HAS value. It's a place where one of the major topics of discussion that never fails to spark a spirited debate occasionally comes up, that "The Ultimate-Truth-Of-All must be that god is an atheist." And to all, a joyous Winter Solstice! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C7206B.F81F0340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original Message-----
From: R Stiffler=20 [mailto:rstiffler earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, December 15, = 2006=20 4:29 PM
To: svj orionworks.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]: = We are=20 Scientists?

Yes=20 indeed! Imagine no Politics, Greed, Singular Control, Subversion? Why = not=20 freedom? Is indeed control and management what keeps a populace in = check. I=20 can't imagine why you want to seek the 'Atheist' they won't admit to = the truth=20 if presented. At least an 'Agnostic' is willing, similar to a = scientist=20 and only wants proof......
 
-----Original Message-----
From: OrionWorks=20 [mailto:ow01 voyager.net]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 = 4:20=20 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: We = are=20 Scientists?

A thoughtful message by R Stifler.=20 Thanks.

When I die I hope I go to that special eternal = convention in=20 the cosmos, the one I suspect where most atheist prefer to = congregate=20 at.

Imagine. A place where there is no religion. An enchanted = landscape where food and fine wine flow freely, where audacious = marathon=20 parties persist throughout the wee hours of dawn, where everyone is=20 perceived as equals, where everyone's perception of reality is = perceived as=20 having value, where everyone HAS value.

It's a place where = one of=20 the major topics of discussion that never fails to spark a spirited = debate=20 occasionally comes up, that "The Ultimate-Truth-Of-All must be that = god is=20 an atheist."

And to all, a joyous Winter=20 Solstice!

Regards,
Steven Vincent=20 = Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com



------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C7206B.F81F0340-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 18:52:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBG2qnEi013030; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 18:52:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBG2qhPC012991; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 18:52:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 18:52:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 13:52:27 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 16 Dec 2006 02:52:32 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBG2qYXg012949 Resent-Message-ID: <3VS2RB.A.2KD.691gFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: New Hydrino page posted Status: O X-Status: Hi, I have just put up a new Hydrino page for those who are interested. Please see:- http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/Molecular%20Hydrino%20Fusion.htm Regards, Robin van Spaandonk If "other people" can be denied their rights, then what's to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 21:20:52 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBG5KlEt002723; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 21:20:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBG5KfkX002693; Fri, 15 Dec 2006 21:20:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 21:20:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 00:19:18 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: We are Scientists? In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBG5Kau5002673 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: R Stiffler wrote: > Yes indeed! Imagine no Politics, Greed, Singular Control, Subversion? Why > not freedom? Is indeed control and management what keeps a populace in > check. I can't imagine why you want to seek the 'Atheist' they won't admit > to the truth if presented. At least an 'Agnostic' is willing, similar to a > scientist and only wants proof...... The God Who May Be: A Hermeneutics of Religion By Richard Kearney (Indiana Series in the Philosophy of Religion), Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 2001; 192 pp.; hb. $ 19.95, pb. $ 49.95; isbn:0-253-33998-7/0-253-21489-0. review by Lieven Boeve Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Belgium [1] In this volume Richard Kearney takes up the challenge to reþect on God Œafter the God of metaphysics¹. In the introduction he presents this volume as a kind of assemblage of thoughts on God, stemming from his doctoral studies on Ricoeur and the co-editing of Heidegger et la question de Dieu (with J. O¹Leary, 1981), and more recently his contributions to the Villanova Conferences on Œreligion and postmodernism¹ (1997, 1999). How is it possible to Œovercome the old notion of God as disembodied cause, devoid of dynamism and desire, in favor of a more eschatological notion of God as possibility to come: the posse which calls us beyond the present toward a promised future?¹ (3) How is it possible to think God post-onto-theologically? Kearney¹s intuition, his Œwager¹, is to conceive of God in terms of a God Œwho may be¹, Œwho is May-Be¹, a Œpossible God¹, a God Œmore than impossible¹, with as Þrst name, borrowed from Nicolaus Cusanus: Possest. The God who may be is the God from the kingdom to come, an eschatological God, a God of promise and of powerlessness, of justice and peace, who persuades human beings to answer his call to realize the kingdom. Inspired by and in discussion with many contemporary thinkers from the so-called continental tradition, Levinas, Derrida, Ricoeur, Marion, Caputo, Breton, and Greisch among others, Kearney sketches Œthe outlines of a narrative [onto-]eschatology¹ (8) that favors the possible over the actual, posse over esse. The methodological approach of this reþection on religion is of a phenomenological nature, supplemented with a hermeneutical retrieving of inspiring insights from the main texts of the Western Judeo-Christian philosophical and intellectual history. This exercise takes the form of an attempt to resist both classical onto-theology and postmodern negative theology... more http://www.arsdisputandi.org/publish/articles/000187/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 00:47:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBG8lLFb029532; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 00:47:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBG8lEvt029489; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 00:47:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 00:47:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4583B27A.4080301 usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 02:46:50 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: We are Scientists? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R Stiffler wrote: >Have a Happy Holiday! Don’t let Nature get you down, just follow her, as you >are. > > > You should get a copy of the video Unlocking the Mysteries of Life, http://www.christianstories.com/categories/intelligentdesign/video/intelligentdesignvideopage.shtml the animation reminds me of a production line. My point is that something this complex didn't arise spontaneously. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 03:02:01 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGB1tgv019118; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 03:01:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGB1rwm019106; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 03:01:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 03:01:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ga7nMluBltzkOZi5SuBcIfc5iUwE6BnOCBtGT/ytyCQplXUfpZyD2F8EvnyyDkXC; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006126161114352 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 04:01:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a90d8f738ee5dd1bf25d83a34509996c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.213 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Ignoring T. H. Moray's ventures into solid state physics with emphasis on his pre-1912 results using a long-wire antenna, a ferrous metal powder "Coherer" and a good ground opens up several possibilities for extracting useable energy from the cosmos. http://www.rexresearch.com/moray2/morayrer.htm "[p. 20] "I started my experiments with the taking of electricity from the ground, as I termed it, during the summer of 1909. By fall of 1910 I had sufficient power to operate a small electrical device, and I made a demonstration of my idea to two friends... This demonstration in the early stages consisted of operating a miniature arc light... It soon became evident that the energy was not static and that the static of the universe would be of no assistance to me in obtaining the power I was seeking... " "During the Christmas Holidays of 1911, I began to fully realize that the energy I was working with was not of a static nature, but of an oscillating nature. Further I realized that the energy was not coming out of the earth, but instead was coming to the earth from some outside source. These electrical oscillations in the form of waves were not simple oscillations, but were surgings --- like the waves of the sea --- coming to the earth continually, more in the daytime than at night, but always coming in vibrations from the reservoir of colossal energy out there in space. By this time I was able to obtain enough power to light the old 16-candlepower carbon lamp for about one half capacity, and I did not seem to make any further improvement until the spring of 1925." " Man-made radio waves (if Tesla wasn't around) would be hard put to exceed 50 millivolts per meter (2.2E-14 Joule per cubic meter) or 6.6E-6 watts per square meter at any given frequency most of which were from radio telegraphy transmitters that predated amplitude modulated (cat whisker detector-rectifier) voice broadcasting. Some "non-radio" possibilities: 1, Zero point energy (ZPE) extraction-resonance effects in the Coherer? 2, Thermoelectric (Seebeck-Peltier) thermal effects between the Aerial and the cooler-warmer earth Ground? 3, Surface Heterodyne (beat frequency) action between visible to far infrared photons striking the Aerial? 4, Radio Frequency energy coming out of the earth and radiating off the Aerial? 5, A reverse ground wave emergency network (GWEN) transmitter? < grin > Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Ignoring T. H. Moray's ventures into solid state physics with
emphasis on his pre-1912 results using a  long-wire antenna, a
ferrous metal powder "Coherer" and a good ground opens up
several possibilities for extracting useable energy from the cosmos.
 
 
"[p. 20] "I started my experiments with the taking of electricity from the ground, as I termed it, during the summer of 1909. By fall of 1910 I had sufficient power to operate a small electrical device, and I made a demonstration of my idea to two friends... This demonstration in the early stages consisted of operating a miniature arc light... It soon became evident that the energy was not static and that the static of the universe would be of no assistance to me in obtaining the power I was seeking... "

"During the Christmas Holidays of 1911, I began to fully realize that the energy I was working with was not of a static nature, but of an oscillating nature. Further I realized that the energy was not coming out of the earth, but instead was coming to the earth from some outside source. These electrical oscillations in the form of waves were not simple oscillations, but were surgings --- like the waves of the sea --- coming to the earth continually, more in the daytime than at night, but always coming in vibrations from the reservoir of colossal energy out there in space. By this time I was able to obtain enough power to light the old 16-candlepower carbon lamp for about one half capacity, and I did not seem to make any further improvement until the spring of 1925." "

Man-made radio waves (if Tesla wasn't around) would be hard put to exceed

50 millivolts per meter (2.2E-14 Joule per cubic meter) or 6.6E-6 watts per square meter

at any given frequency most of which were from radio telegraphy transmitters that

predated amplitude modulated (cat whisker detector-rectifier) voice broadcasting.

Some "non-radio" possibilities:

1, Zero point energy (ZPE) extraction-resonance effects in the Coherer?

2, Thermoelectric (Seebeck-Peltier) thermal effects between the Aerial

and the cooler-warmer earth Ground?

3, Surface Heterodyne (beat frequency) action between visible to far infrared

photons striking the Aerial?

4, Radio Frequency energy coming out of the earth and radiating

off the Aerial?

5, A reverse ground wave emergency network (GWEN) transmitter? < grin >

Fred

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 03:52:15 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGBq56K009818; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 03:52:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGBq4nw009804; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 03:52:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 03:52:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <016401c72108$97a3fc30$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 12:51:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBGBq2QL009751 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Bohr model and hydrinos (was Re: New Hydrino page posted) Status: RO X-Status: Indeed Robin, as you wrote some time ago, the small radii of the hydrinos (shrunken H atoms) if they exist would facilitate the close encounters required for fusion. This reminds me I had promised Fred I would post a derivation of allowed (unshrunken) circular electron orbits radii in Bohr's semi-classical model for the H atom, here is one (it may not be the shortest route, improvements/comments welcome): -------------------------------- Notations (values in SI) ----------------- k coulombic force constant (8.99*10^9) me electron mass (9.11*10^-31) e electron charge (1.6*10^-19) h Planck's constant (6.6x10^-34) v orbital velocity r orbit radius n integral number (of wavelengths in orbit circumference) F=ma (Newton's 2nd law) ---- k*e*e/r²=me*v²/r k*e²=me*v²*r r=k*e²/(me*v²) (1) Bohr's postulate: orbit circumference is a multiple of the electron's velocity-dependent De Broglie wavelength h/(me*v) (which I view as a condition of non self-destruction of the electron as a wave. Such self-destructive interference would be the main obstacle to my believing in hydrinos if the wave particle duality made total sense to me ;) ------------------- n*h/(me*v)=2*pi*r (2) (1) and (2) => n*h/(me*v)=2*pi*k*e²/(me*v²) n*h*v=2*pi*k*e² v=2*pi*k*e²/(n*h) (2)=> r=n*h/(me*v*2*pi) r=n*h/(me*2*pi*(2*pi*k*e²)/(n*h)) r=(n*h)²/(me*(2*pi)²*k*e²) r=n²*(6.6x10^-34)²/(9.11*10^-31*39.4*8.99*10^9*((1.6*10^-19)²))) r=n²*52.7*10^-12 m One recognizes the 52.7 pm base level Bohr radius so it must be right ;) ----------------------------------- Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:52 AM Subject: [Vo]: New Hydrino page posted > Hi, > > I have just put up a new Hydrino page for those who are interested. Please see:- > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/Molecular%20Hydrino%20Fusion.htm > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > If "other people" can be denied their rights, then what's > to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"? > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 04:38:12 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGCc8pr029123; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 04:38:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGCc3QN029103; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 04:38:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 04:38:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=EmSs3qo7q2TocMih8cdTal5h2/dJAcNrsjYfcu8GvQu7hNUo8rJbpqc9OFa/GeDr; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612616123750799 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Bohr model and hydrinos (was Re: New Hydrino page posted) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 05:37:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f5687ddd2365b0793336ed33a6f37e5b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.82 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: First cut response, Michel: 1, Compton wavelength of the electron = h/mc = 2.427E-12 meters 2, 1/alpha (137.03) * 2.427E-12 = Orbit Wavelength = 3.3258E-10 meters 3, Orbit Radius = 3.3258E-10/2(pi) = 5.293E-11 meters. 4, Electron Orbit Velocity c/137.03 = 2.189E6 meters/second How do you get a "fractional orbit" without changing the Fine Structure Constant, Alpha? Fred Michel Jullian wrote. > > Indeed Robin, as you wrote some time ago, the small radii of the hydrinos (shrunken H atoms) if they exist would facilitate the close encounters required for fusion. > > This reminds me I had promised Fred I would post a derivation of allowed (unshrunken) circular electron orbits radii in Bohr's semi-classical model for the H atom, here is one (it may not be the shortest route, improvements/comments welcome): > -------------------------------- > Notations (values in SI) > ----------------- > k coulombic force constant (8.99*10^9) > me electron mass (9.11*10^-31) > e electron charge (1.6*10^-19) > h Planck's constant (6.6x10^-34) > v orbital velocity > r orbit radius > n integral number (of wavelengths in orbit circumference) > > F=ma (Newton's 2nd law) > ---- > k*e*e/r²=me*v²/r > k*e²=me*v²*r > r=k*e²/(me*v²) (1) > > Bohr's postulate: orbit circumference is a multiple of the > electron's velocity-dependent De Broglie wavelength h/(me*v) > (which I view as a condition of non self-destruction of the > electron as a wave. Such self-destructive interference would > be the main obstacle to my believing in hydrinos if the wave > particle duality made total sense to me ;) > ------------------- > n*h/(me*v)=2*pi*r (2) > > (1) and (2) => n*h/(me*v)=2*pi*k*e²/(me*v²) > n*h*v=2*pi*k*e² > v=2*pi*k*e²/(n*h) > > (2)=> r=n*h/(me*v*2*pi) > r=n*h/(me*2*pi*(2*pi*k*e²)/(n*h)) > r=(n*h)²/(me*(2*pi)²*k*e²) > r=n²*(6.6x10^-34)²/(9.11*10^-31*39.4*8.99*10^9*((1.6*10^-19)²))) > r=n²*52.7*10^-12 m > > One recognizes the 52.7 pm base level Bohr radius so it must be right ;) > ----------------------------------- > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:52 AM > Subject: [Vo]: New Hydrino page posted > > > > Hi, > > > > I have just put up a new Hydrino page for those who are interested. Please see:- > > > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/Molecular%20Hydrino%20Fusion.htm > > > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > If "other people" can be denied their rights, then what's > > to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"? > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 05:00:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGD0UoH014234; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 05:00:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGD0HcI014178; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 05:00:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 05:00:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ZAsatpdEPVPaYjfNbSqpQ/JwtBYFJdSkWU29iVmL46+RlcXfEOxBW10BfjoQJrGl9pWs1kONOT1BSDRC8Ol7mPILPU+1TQMrPyF40a8TcH7olgbaDkMHNPpGNSXdVEJnsk6xdh32AK/I5oixSKNDbf6zYJktiii0cVLrUfQzgXY= Message-ID: <357653710612160500u3d65b360j4e7ad413debf30fc mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:00:10 +0100 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden gmail.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bohr model and hydrinos (was Re: New Hydrino page posted) In-Reply-To: <016401c72108$97a3fc30$3800a8c0 zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2001_28473168.1166274010245" References: <016401c72108$97a3fc30$3800a8c0 zothan> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 170e7093be44374b Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_2001_28473168.1166274010245 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SGkKCkNoYW5nZSBwZXJtaXR0aXZpdHkg4oKsMCBhbmQgeW91IHdpbGwgZ2V0IGEgZGlmZmVyZW50 IG9yYml0LgoKRGF2aWQKCgpPbiAxMi8xNi8wNiwgTWljaGVsIEp1bGxpYW4gPG1qQGV4YmFuZy5j b20+IHdyb3RlOgo+Cj4gSW5kZWVkIFJvYmluLCBhcyB5b3Ugd3JvdGUgc29tZSB0aW1lIGFnbywg dGhlIHNtYWxsIHJhZGlpIG9mIHRoZSBoeWRyaW5vcwo+IChzaHJ1bmtlbiBIIGF0b21zKSBpZiB0 aGV5IGV4aXN0IHdvdWxkIGZhY2lsaXRhdGUgdGhlIGNsb3NlIGVuY291bnRlcnMKPiByZXF1aXJl ZCBmb3IgZnVzaW9uLgo+Cj4gVGhpcyByZW1pbmRzIG1lIEkgaGFkIHByb21pc2VkIEZyZWQgSSB3 b3VsZCBwb3N0IGEgZGVyaXZhdGlvbiBvZiBhbGxvd2VkCj4gKHVuc2hydW5rZW4pIGNpcmN1bGFy IGVsZWN0cm9uIG9yYml0cyByYWRpaSBpbiBCb2hyJ3Mgc2VtaS1jbGFzc2ljYWwgbW9kZWwKPiBm b3IgdGhlIEggYXRvbSwgaGVyZSBpcyBvbmUgKGl0IG1heSBub3QgYmUgdGhlIHNob3J0ZXN0IHJv dXRlLAo+IGltcHJvdmVtZW50cy9jb21tZW50cyB3ZWxjb21lKToKPiAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQo+IE5vdGF0aW9ucyAodmFsdWVzIGluIFNJKQo+IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tCj4gayBjb3Vsb21iaWMgZm9yY2UgY29uc3RhbnQgKDguOTkqMTBeOSkKPiBtZSBlbGVj dHJvbiBtYXNzICg5LjExKjEwXi0zMSkKPiBlIGVsZWN0cm9uIGNoYXJnZSAoMS42KjEwXi0xOSkK PiBoIFBsYW5jaydzIGNvbnN0YW50ICg2LjZ4MTBeLTM0KQo+IHYgb3JiaXRhbCB2ZWxvY2l0eQo+ IHIgb3JiaXQgcmFkaXVzCj4gbiBpbnRlZ3JhbCBudW1iZXIgKG9mIHdhdmVsZW5ndGhzIGluIG9y Yml0IGNpcmN1bWZlcmVuY2UpCj4KPiBGPW1hIChOZXd0b24ncyAybmQgbGF3KQo+IC0tLS0KPiBr KmUqZS9ywrI9bWUqdsKyL3IKPiBrKmXCsj1tZSp2wrIqcgo+IHI9ayplwrIvKG1lKnbCsikgICAg ICAgKDEpCj4KPiBCb2hyJ3MgcG9zdHVsYXRlOiBvcmJpdCBjaXJjdW1mZXJlbmNlIGlzIGEgbXVs dGlwbGUgb2YgdGhlCj4gZWxlY3Ryb24ncyB2ZWxvY2l0eS1kZXBlbmRlbnQgRGUgQnJvZ2xpZSB3 YXZlbGVuZ3RoIGgvKG1lKnYpCj4gKHdoaWNoIEkgdmlldyBhcyBhIGNvbmRpdGlvbiBvZiBub24g c2VsZi1kZXN0cnVjdGlvbiBvZiB0aGUKPiBlbGVjdHJvbiBhcyBhIHdhdmUuIFN1Y2ggc2VsZi1k ZXN0cnVjdGl2ZSBpbnRlcmZlcmVuY2Ugd291bGQKPiBiZSB0aGUgbWFpbiBvYnN0YWNsZSB0byBt eSBiZWxpZXZpbmcgaW4gaHlkcmlub3MgaWYgdGhlIHdhdmUKPiBwYXJ0aWNsZSBkdWFsaXR5IG1h ZGUgdG90YWwgc2Vuc2UgdG8gbWUgOykKPiAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tCj4gbipoLyhtZSp2 KT0yKnBpKnIgICAgKDIpCj4KPiAoMSkgYW5kICgyKSA9PiBuKmgvKG1lKnYpPTIqcGkqayplwrIv KG1lKnbCsikKPiBuKmgqdj0yKnBpKmsqZcKyCj4gdj0yKnBpKmsqZcKyLyhuKmgpCj4KPiAoMik9 PiByPW4qaC8obWUqdioyKnBpKQo+IHI9bipoLyhtZSoyKnBpKigyKnBpKmsqZcKyKS8obipoKSkK PiByPShuKmgpwrIvKG1lKigyKnBpKcKyKmsqZcKyKQo+IHI9bsKyKig2LjZ4MTBeLTM0KcKyLyg5 LjExKjEwXi0zMSozOS40KjguOTkqMTBeOSooKDEuNioxMF4tMTkpwrIpKSkKPiByPW7Csio1Mi43 KjEwXi0xMiBtCj4KPiBPbmUgcmVjb2duaXplcyB0aGUgNTIuNyBwbSBiYXNlIGxldmVsIEJvaHIg cmFkaXVzIHNvIGl0IG11c3QgYmUgcmlnaHQgOykKPiAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLQo+IE1pY2hlbAo+Cj4gLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLQo+IEZy b206ICJSb2JpbiB2YW4gU3BhYW5kb25rIiA8cnZhbnNwYWFAYmlncG9uZC5uZXQuYXU+Cj4gVG86 IDx2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tPgo+IFNlbnQ6IFNhdHVyZGF5LCBEZWNlbWJlciAxNiwgMjAw NiAzOjUyIEFNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogW1ZvXTogTmV3IEh5ZHJpbm8gcGFnZSBwb3N0ZWQKPgo+Cj4g PiBIaSwKPiA+Cj4gPiBJIGhhdmUganVzdCBwdXQgdXAgYSBuZXcgSHlkcmlubyBwYWdlIGZvciB0 aG9zZSB3aG8gYXJlIGludGVyZXN0ZWQuCj4gUGxlYXNlIHNlZTotCj4gPgo+ID4gaHR0cDovL3Vz ZXJzLmJpZ3BvbmQubmV0LmF1L3J2YW5zcGFhL01vbGVjdWxhciUyMEh5ZHJpbm8lMjBGdXNpb24u aHRtCj4gPgo+ID4gUmVnYXJkcywKPiA+Cj4gPiBSb2JpbiB2YW4gU3BhYW5kb25rCj4gPgo+ID4g SWYgIm90aGVyIHBlb3BsZSIgY2FuIGJlIGRlbmllZCB0aGVpciByaWdodHMsIHRoZW4gd2hhdCdz Cj4gPiB0byBzdG9wIHNvbWVvbmUgY2xhaW1pbmcgdGhhdCB5b3UgYmVsb25nIGFtb25nIHRoZSAi b3RoZXIgcGVvcGxlIj8KPiA+Cj4KPgo= ------=_Part_2001_28473168.1166274010245 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline PGRpdj5IaTwvZGl2Pgo8ZGl2PiZuYnNwOzwvZGl2Pgo8ZGl2PkNoYW5nZSBwZXJtaXR0aXZpdHkg 4oKsMCBhbmQgeW91IHdpbGwgZ2V0IGEgZGlmZmVyZW50IG9yYml0LjwvZGl2Pgo8ZGl2PiZuYnNw OzwvZGl2Pgo8ZGl2PkRhdmlkPGJyPjxicj4mbmJzcDs8L2Rpdj4KPGRpdj48c3BhbiBjbGFzcz0i Z21haWxfcXVvdGUiPk9uIDEyLzE2LzA2LCA8YiBjbGFzcz0iZ21haWxfc2VuZGVybmFtZSI+TWlj aGVsIEp1bGxpYW48L2I+ICZsdDs8YSBocmVmPSJtYWlsdG86bWpAZXhiYW5nLmNvbSI+bWpAZXhi YW5nLmNvbTwvYT4mZ3Q7IHdyb3RlOjwvc3Bhbj4KPGJsb2NrcXVvdGUgY2xhc3M9ImdtYWlsX3F1 b3RlIiBzdHlsZT0iUEFERElORy1MRUZUOiAxZXg7IE1BUkdJTjogMHB4IDBweCAwcHggMC44ZXg7 IEJPUkRFUi1MRUZUOiAjY2NjIDFweCBzb2xpZCI+SW5kZWVkIFJvYmluLCBhcyB5b3Ugd3JvdGUg c29tZSB0aW1lIGFnbywgdGhlIHNtYWxsIHJhZGlpIG9mIHRoZSBoeWRyaW5vcyAoc2hydW5rZW4g SCBhdG9tcykgaWYgdGhleSBleGlzdCB3b3VsZCBmYWNpbGl0YXRlIHRoZSBjbG9zZSBlbmNvdW50 ZXJzIHJlcXVpcmVkIGZvciBmdXNpb24uCjxicj48YnI+VGhpcyByZW1pbmRzIG1lIEkgaGFkIHBy b21pc2VkIEZyZWQgSSB3b3VsZCBwb3N0IGEgZGVyaXZhdGlvbiBvZiBhbGxvd2VkICh1bnNocnVu a2VuKSBjaXJjdWxhciBlbGVjdHJvbiBvcmJpdHMgcmFkaWkgaW4gQm9ocidzIHNlbWktY2xhc3Np Y2FsIG1vZGVsIGZvciB0aGUgSCBhdG9tLCBoZXJlIGlzIG9uZSAoaXQgbWF5IG5vdCBiZSB0aGUg c2hvcnRlc3Qgcm91dGUsIGltcHJvdmVtZW50cy9jb21tZW50cyB3ZWxjb21lKToKPGJyPi0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tPGJyPk5vdGF0aW9ucyAodmFsdWVzIGluIFNJKTxi cj4tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLTxicj5rIGNvdWxvbWJpYyBmb3JjZSBjb25zdGFudCAoOC45OSox MF45KTxicj5tZSBlbGVjdHJvbiBtYXNzICg5LjExKjEwXi0zMSk8YnI+ZSBlbGVjdHJvbiBjaGFy Z2UgKDEuNioxMF4tMTkpPGJyPmggUGxhbmNrJ3MgY29uc3RhbnQgKDYuNngxMF4tMzQKKTxicj52 IG9yYml0YWwgdmVsb2NpdHk8YnI+ciBvcmJpdCByYWRpdXM8YnI+biBpbnRlZ3JhbCBudW1iZXIg KG9mIHdhdmVsZW5ndGhzIGluIG9yYml0IGNpcmN1bWZlcmVuY2UpPGJyPjxicj5GPW1hIChOZXd0 b24ncyAybmQgbGF3KTxicj4tLS0tPGJyPmsqZSplL3LCsj1tZSp2wrIvcjxicj5rKmXCsj1tZSp2 wrIqcjxicj5yPWsqZcKyLyhtZSp2wrIpJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5i c3A7ICgxKTxicj48YnI+Qm9ocidzIHBvc3R1bGF0ZTogb3JiaXQgY2lyY3VtZmVyZW5jZSBpcyBh IG11bHRpcGxlIG9mIHRoZQo8YnI+ZWxlY3Ryb24ncyB2ZWxvY2l0eS1kZXBlbmRlbnQgRGUgQnJv Z2xpZSB3YXZlbGVuZ3RoIGgvKG1lKnYpPGJyPih3aGljaCBJIHZpZXcgYXMgYSBjb25kaXRpb24g b2Ygbm9uIHNlbGYtZGVzdHJ1Y3Rpb24gb2YgdGhlPGJyPmVsZWN0cm9uIGFzIGEgd2F2ZS4gU3Vj aCBzZWxmLWRlc3RydWN0aXZlIGludGVyZmVyZW5jZSB3b3VsZDxicj5iZSB0aGUgbWFpbiBvYnN0 YWNsZSB0byBteSBiZWxpZXZpbmcgaW4gaHlkcmlub3MgaWYgdGhlIHdhdmUKPGJyPnBhcnRpY2xl IGR1YWxpdHkgbWFkZSB0b3RhbCBzZW5zZSB0byBtZSA7KTxicj4tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t PGJyPm4qaC8obWUqdik9MipwaSpyJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7KDIpPGJyPjxicj4o MSkgYW5kICgyKSA9Jmd0OyBuKmgvKG1lKnYpPTIqcGkqayplwrIvKG1lKnbCsik8YnI+bipoKnY9 MipwaSprKmXCsjxicj52PTIqcGkqayplwrIvKG4qaCk8YnI+PGJyPigyKT0mZ3Q7IHI9bipoLyht ZSp2KjIqcGkpCjxicj5yPW4qaC8obWUqMipwaSooMipwaSprKmXCsikvKG4qaCkpPGJyPnI9KG4q aCnCsi8obWUqKDIqcGkpwrIqayplwrIpPGJyPnI9bsKyKig2LjZ4MTBeLTM0KcKyLyg5LjExKjEw Xi0zMSozOS40KjguOTkqMTBeOSooKDEuNioxMF4tMTkpwrIpKSk8YnI+cj1uwrIqNTIuNyoxMF4t MTIgbTxicj48YnI+T25lIHJlY29nbml6ZXMgdGhlIDUyLjcgcG0gYmFzZSBsZXZlbCBCb2hyIHJh ZGl1cyBzbyBpdCBtdXN0IGJlIHJpZ2h0IDspCjxicj4tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLTxicj5NaWNoZWw8YnI+PGJyPi0tLS0tIE9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UgLS0tLS08 YnI+RnJvbTogJnF1b3Q7Um9iaW4gdmFuIFNwYWFuZG9uayZxdW90OyAmbHQ7PGEgaHJlZj0ibWFp bHRvOnJ2YW5zcGFhQGJpZ3BvbmQubmV0LmF1Ij5ydmFuc3BhYUBiaWdwb25kLm5ldC5hdTwvYT4m Z3Q7PGJyPlRvOiAmbHQ7PGEgaHJlZj0ibWFpbHRvOnZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20iPgp2b3J0 ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tPC9hPiZndDs8YnI+U2VudDogU2F0dXJkYXksIERlY2VtYmVyIDE2LCAy MDA2IDM6NTIgQU08YnI+U3ViamVjdDogW1ZvXTogTmV3IEh5ZHJpbm8gcGFnZSBwb3N0ZWQ8YnI+ PGJyPjxicj4mZ3Q7IEhpLDxicj4mZ3Q7PGJyPiZndDsgSSBoYXZlIGp1c3QgcHV0IHVwIGEgbmV3 IEh5ZHJpbm8gcGFnZSBmb3IgdGhvc2Ugd2hvIGFyZSBpbnRlcmVzdGVkLiBQbGVhc2Ugc2VlOi0K PGJyPiZndDs8YnI+Jmd0OyA8YSBocmVmPSJodHRwOi8vdXNlcnMuYmlncG9uZC5uZXQuYXUvcnZh bnNwYWEvTW9sZWN1bGFyJTIwSHlkcmlubyUyMEZ1c2lvbi5odG0iPmh0dHA6Ly91c2Vycy5iaWdw b25kLm5ldC5hdS9ydmFuc3BhYS9Nb2xlY3VsYXIlMjBIeWRyaW5vJTIwRnVzaW9uLmh0bTwvYT48 YnI+Jmd0Ozxicj4mZ3Q7IFJlZ2FyZHMsPGJyPiZndDs8YnI+Jmd0OyBSb2JpbiB2YW4gU3BhYW5k b25rCjxicj4mZ3Q7PGJyPiZndDsgSWYgJnF1b3Q7b3RoZXIgcGVvcGxlJnF1b3Q7IGNhbiBiZSBk ZW5pZWQgdGhlaXIgcmlnaHRzLCB0aGVuIHdoYXQnczxicj4mZ3Q7IHRvIHN0b3Agc29tZW9uZSBj bGFpbWluZyB0aGF0IHlvdSBiZWxvbmcgYW1vbmcgdGhlICZxdW90O290aGVyIHBlb3BsZSZxdW90 Oz88YnI+Jmd0Ozxicj48YnI+PC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPjwvZGl2Pjxicj4K ------=_Part_2001_28473168.1166274010245-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 05:05:19 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGD59Qm008007; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 05:05:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGD58Co007994; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 05:05:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 05:05:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=lHttPLLeVL9FRnwFlAt8P1NIBTUASHJiVdDIVjrb7wBGj76Xlfyy+rktxoIqL6Co; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006126161352345 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Bohr model and hydrinos (was Re: New Hydrino page posted) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 06:05:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940af736ceff23fa116aa1064f7c7aa4561350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.145 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OTOH Michel. I will concede that increasing the mass-energy of the electron enough for it to be "absorbed" into the proton (along with creation of neutrinos) by about 0.8 MeV to form a neutron works in the sun to form deuterons. (P-e-P ----> D). Calling that a "fractional orbit" stretching it. :-) Fred Frederick Sparber wrote: > > First cut response, Michel: > > 1, Compton wavelength of the electron = h/mc = 2.427E-12 meters > > 2, 1/alpha (137.03) * 2.427E-12 = Orbit Wavelength = 3.3258E-10 meters > > 3, Orbit Radius = 3.3258E-10/2(pi) = 5.293E-11 meters. > > 4, Electron Orbit Velocity c/137.03 = 2.189E6 meters/second > > How do you get a "fractional orbit" without changing the Fine Structure > Constant, Alpha? > > Fred > > Michel Jullian wrote. > > > > Indeed Robin, as you wrote some time ago, the small radii of the hydrinos > (shrunken H atoms) if they exist would facilitate the close encounters > required for fusion. > > > > This reminds me I had promised Fred I would post a derivation of allowed > (unshrunken) circular electron orbits radii in Bohr's semi-classical model > for the H atom, here is one (it may not be the shortest route, > improvements/comments welcome): > > -------------------------------- > > Notations (values in SI) > > ----------------- > > k coulombic force constant (8.99*10^9) > > me electron mass (9.11*10^-31) > > e electron charge (1.6*10^-19) > > h Planck's constant (6.6x10^-34) > > v orbital velocity > > r orbit radius > > n integral number (of wavelengths in orbit circumference) > > > > F=ma (Newton's 2nd law) > > ---- > > k*e*e/r²=me*v²/r > > k*e²=me*v²*r > > r=k*e²/(me*v²) (1) > > > > Bohr's postulate: orbit circumference is a multiple of the > > electron's velocity-dependent De Broglie wavelength h/(me*v) > > (which I view as a condition of non self-destruction of the > > electron as a wave. Such self-destructive interference would > > be the main obstacle to my believing in hydrinos if the wave > > particle duality made total sense to me ;) > > ------------------- > > n*h/(me*v)=2*pi*r (2) > > > > (1) and (2) => n*h/(me*v)=2*pi*k*e²/(me*v²) > > n*h*v=2*pi*k*e² > > v=2*pi*k*e²/(n*h) > > > > (2)=> r=n*h/(me*v*2*pi) > > r=n*h/(me*2*pi*(2*pi*k*e²)/(n*h)) > > r=(n*h)²/(me*(2*pi)²*k*e²) > > r=n²*(6.6x10^-34)²/(9.11*10^-31*39.4*8.99*10^9*((1.6*10^-19)²))) > > r=n²*52.7*10^-12 m > > > > One recognizes the 52.7 pm base level Bohr radius so it must be right ;) > > ----------------------------------- > > Michel > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:52 AM > > Subject: [Vo]: New Hydrino page posted > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I have just put up a new Hydrino page for those who are interested. > Please see:- > > > > > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/Molecular%20Hydrino%20Fusion.htm > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > > > If "other people" can be denied their rights, then what's > > > to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"? > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 07:05:10 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGF53nj023623; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:05:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGF4oo0023530; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:04:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:04:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <018a01c72123$862ce690$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22006126161352345 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bohr model and hydrinos (was Re: New Hydrino page posted) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:04:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBGF4l7e023501 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Shrinking it you mean ;) Indeed there are many cases when the electron lives in non-integer orbits, like when it jumps between integer orbits. Admittedly such forbidden states don't last long, but long enough maybe to allow interesting reactions to occur? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 2:05 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Bohr model and hydrinos (was Re: New Hydrino page posted) > OTOH Michel. > > I will concede that increasing the mass-energy of the electron enough for it > to be "absorbed" into the proton (along with creation of neutrinos) by about > 0.8 MeV to form a neutron works in the sun to form deuterons. (P-e-P ----> > D). > > Calling that a "fractional orbit" stretching it. :-) > > Fred > > Frederick Sparber wrote: >> >> First cut response, Michel: >> >> 1, Compton wavelength of the electron = h/mc = 2.427E-12 meters >> >> 2, 1/alpha (137.03) * 2.427E-12 = Orbit Wavelength = 3.3258E-10 meters >> >> 3, Orbit Radius = 3.3258E-10/2(pi) = 5.293E-11 meters. >> >> 4, Electron Orbit Velocity c/137.03 = 2.189E6 meters/second >> >> How do you get a "fractional orbit" without changing the Fine Structure >> Constant, Alpha? >> >> Fred >> >> Michel Jullian wrote. >> > >> > Indeed Robin, as you wrote some time ago, the small radii of the > hydrinos >> (shrunken H atoms) if they exist would facilitate the close encounters >> required for fusion. >> > >> > This reminds me I had promised Fred I would post a derivation of allowed >> (unshrunken) circular electron orbits radii in Bohr's semi-classical model >> for the H atom, here is one (it may not be the shortest route, >> improvements/comments welcome): >> > -------------------------------- >> > Notations (values in SI) >> > ----------------- >> > k coulombic force constant (8.99*10^9) >> > me electron mass (9.11*10^-31) >> > e electron charge (1.6*10^-19) >> > h Planck's constant (6.6x10^-34) >> > v orbital velocity >> > r orbit radius >> > n integral number (of wavelengths in orbit circumference) >> > >> > F=ma (Newton's 2nd law) >> > ---- >> > k*e*e/r²=me*v²/r >> > k*e²=me*v²*r >> > r=k*e²/(me*v²) (1) >> > >> > Bohr's postulate: orbit circumference is a multiple of the >> > electron's velocity-dependent De Broglie wavelength h/(me*v) >> > (which I view as a condition of non self-destruction of the >> > electron as a wave. Such self-destructive interference would >> > be the main obstacle to my believing in hydrinos if the wave >> > particle duality made total sense to me ;) >> > ------------------- >> > n*h/(me*v)=2*pi*r (2) >> > >> > (1) and (2) => n*h/(me*v)=2*pi*k*e²/(me*v²) >> > n*h*v=2*pi*k*e² >> > v=2*pi*k*e²/(n*h) >> > >> > (2)=> r=n*h/(me*v*2*pi) >> > r=n*h/(me*2*pi*(2*pi*k*e²)/(n*h)) >> > r=(n*h)²/(me*(2*pi)²*k*e²) >> > r=n²*(6.6x10^-34)²/(9.11*10^-31*39.4*8.99*10^9*((1.6*10^-19)²))) >> > r=n²*52.7*10^-12 m >> > >> > One recognizes the 52.7 pm base level Bohr radius so it must be right ;) >> > ----------------------------------- >> > Michel >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Robin van Spaandonk" >> > To: >> > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:52 AM >> > Subject: [Vo]: New Hydrino page posted >> > >> > >> > > Hi, >> > > >> > > I have just put up a new Hydrino page for those who are interested. >> Please see:- >> > > >> > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/Molecular%20Hydrino%20Fusion.htm >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > >> > > Robin van Spaandonk >> > > >> > > If "other people" can be denied their rights, then what's >> > > to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"? >> > > >> >> > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 07:15:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGFFFeP017889; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:15:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGFF7gV017719; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:15:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:15:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ddltSv70n4pVGqVvEGszI1ZkqfUWtQLcylQ2hY9ZxUHvnXsf50oiaSzpZHIbB0an; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612616151450393 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 08:14:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cb3e0cd458f326ab0b900944ca2b6f9a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.78 Resent-Message-ID: <6IqN3D.A.qUE.61AhFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Going by speculation posted earlier and Moray's comment that "the daytime energy was greater", I think number 3, photon-photon heterodyning at the metal-superficial metal oxide aerial surface would be worth a look. A roll of aluminum foil stretched across the room as the aerial, with a Coherer, a good ground, and some megahz to gigahz tuning components and a light bulb load. A near-infrared (2.414729E14 Hz) photon wavelength of 1.242 micron 1.0 eV beating against a 1.0 eV (2.414715E14 Hz) infrared photon would give a 1.42 gigaHz beat frequency, and so on. BTW. 1.428 gigaHz is the ubiquitous 21 cm cosmic background (3 K) frequency. Fred Ignoring T. H. Moray's ventures into solid state physics with emphasis on his pre-1912 results using a long-wire antenna, a ferrous metal powder "Coherer" and a good ground opens up several possibilities for extracting useable energy from the cosmos. http://www.rexresearch.com/moray2/morayrer.htm "[p. 20] "I started my experiments with the taking of electricity from the ground, as I termed it, during the summer of 1909. By fall of 1910 I had sufficient power to operate a small electrical device, and I made a demonstration of my idea to two friends... This demonstration in the early stages consisted of operating a miniature arc light... It soon became evident that the energy was not static and that the static of the universe would be of no assistance to me in obtaining the power I was seeking... " "During the Christmas Holidays of 1911, I began to fully realize that the energy I was working with was not of a static nature, but of an oscillating nature. Further I realized that the energy was not coming out of the earth, but instead was coming to the earth from some outside source. These electrical oscillations in the form of waves were not simple oscillations, but were surgings --- like the waves of the sea --- coming to the earth continually, more in the daytime than at night, but always coming in vibrations from the reservoir of colossal energy out there in space. By this time I was able to obtain enough power to light the old 16-candlepower carbon lamp for about one half capacity, and I did not seem to make any further improvement until the spring of 1925." " Man-made radio waves (if Tesla wasn't around) would be hard put to exceed 50 millivolts per meter (2.2E-14 Joule per cubic meter) or 6.6E-6 watts per square meter at any given frequency most of which were from radio telegraphy transmitters that predated amplitude modulated (cat whisker detector-rectifier) voice broadcasting. Some "non-radio" possibilities: 1, Zero point energy (ZPE) extraction-resonance effects in the Coherer? 2, Thermoelectric (Seebeck-Peltier) thermal effects between the Aerial and the cooler-warmer earth Ground? 3, Surface Heterodyne (beat frequency) action between visible to far infrared photons striking the Aerial? 4, Radio Frequency energy coming out of the earth and radiating off the Aerial? 5, A reverse ground wave emergency network (GWEN) transmitter? < grin > Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Going by speculation posted earlier and Moray's comment that
"the daytime energy was greater", I think number 3, photon-photon
heterodyning at the metal-superficial metal oxide aerial surface would be worth
a look.
A roll of aluminum foil stretched across the room as the aerial, with
a Coherer, a good ground, and some megahz to gigahz tuning
components and a light bulb load.
A near-infrared (2.414729E14 Hz) photon wavelength of 1.242 micron 1.0 eV
beating against a 1.0 eV (2.414715E14 Hz) infrared photon would
give a 1.42 gigaHz beat frequency, and so on.
 
BTW. 1.428 gigaHz is the ubiquitous 21 cm cosmic background (3 K) frequency.
Fred
Ignoring T. H. Moray's ventures into solid state physics with
emphasis on his pre-1912 results using a  long-wire antenna, a
ferrous metal powder "Coherer" and a good ground opens up
several possibilities for extracting useable energy from the cosmos.
 
 
"[p. 20] "I started my experiments with the taking of electricity from the ground, as I termed it, during the summer of 1909. By fall of 1910 I had sufficient power to operate a small electrical device, and I made a demonstration of my idea to two friends... This demonstration in the early stages consisted of operating a miniature arc light... It soon became evident that the energy was not static and that the static of the universe would be of no assistance to me in obtaining the power I was seeking... "

"During the Christmas Holidays of 1911, I began to fully realize that the energy I was working with was not of a static nature, but of an oscillating nature. Further I realized that the energy was not coming out of the earth, but instead was coming to the earth from some outside source. These electrical oscillations in the form of waves were not simple oscillations, but were surgings --- like the waves of the sea --- coming to the earth continually, more in the daytime than at night, but always coming in vibrations from the reservoir of colossal energy out there in space. By this time I was able to obtain enough power to light the old 16-candlepower carbon lamp for about one half capacity, and I did not seem to make any further improvement until the spring of 1925." "

Man-made radio waves (if Tesla wasn't around) would be hard put to exceed

50 millivolts per meter (2.2E-14 Joule per cubic meter) or 6.6E-6 watts per square meter

at any given frequency most of which were from radio telegraphy transmitters that

predated amplitude modulated (cat whisker detector-rectifier) voice broadcasting.

Some "non-radio" possibilities:

1, Zero point energy (ZPE) extraction-resonance effects in the Coherer?

2, Thermoelectric (Seebeck-Peltier) thermal effects between the Aerial

and the cooler-warmer earth Ground?

3, Surface Heterodyne (beat frequency) action between visible to far infrared

photons striking the Aerial?

4, Radio Frequency energy coming out of the earth and radiating

off the Aerial?

5, A reverse ground wave emergency network (GWEN) transmitter? < grin >

Fred

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 07:32:12 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGFW2jB001540; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:32:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGFVwYQ001516; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:31:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:31:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=H3elzekZVI1ST+iMoyvHStaXGzLd5xAUF+hy+sK3thU29FLDYk+YeN+Z3ZD/7/qw; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061261615315516 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bohr model and hydrinos (was Re: New Hydrino page posted) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 08:31:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404be1d29148bec78297c2eea5d461e6cc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.78 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote. > > Shrinking it you mean ;) > Yep :-) > > Indeed there are many cases when the electron lives in non-integer orbits, like when it jumps between integer orbits. Admittedly such forbidden states don't last long, but long enough maybe to allow interesting reactions to occur? > If you look at the electron as a ring or hoop with a circumference equal to the Compton wavelength h/mc and a radius of 3.86E-13 meters it can orbit at a radius of 5.29E-11 meters from the proton, or it might possibly maneuver to encircle the proton's approximate 5.6 Fermi (5.6E-15 meter) diameter which would create a quasi-neutral particle, Kind of like trying to catch a greased pig. No? Fred > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: "vortex-l" > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 2:05 PM > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Bohr model and hydrinos (was Re: New Hydrino page posted) > > > > OTOH Michel. > > > > I will concede that increasing the mass-energy of the electron enough for it > > to be "absorbed" into the proton (along with creation of neutrinos) by about > > 0.8 MeV to form a neutron works in the sun to form deuterons. (P-e-P ----> > > D). > > > > Calling that a "fractional orbit" stretching it. :-) > > > > Fred > > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > >> > >> First cut response, Michel: > >> > >> 1, Compton wavelength of the electron = h/mc = 2.427E-12 meters > >> > >> 2, 1/alpha (137.03) * 2.427E-12 = Orbit Wavelength = 3.3258E-10 meters > >> > >> 3, Orbit Radius = 3.3258E-10/2(pi) = 5.293E-11 meters. > >> > >> 4, Electron Orbit Velocity c/137.03 = 2.189E6 meters/second > >> > >> How do you get a "fractional orbit" without changing the Fine Structure > >> Constant, Alpha? > >> > >> Fred > >> > >> Michel Jullian wrote. > >> > > >> > Indeed Robin, as you wrote some time ago, the small radii of the > > hydrinos > >> (shrunken H atoms) if they exist would facilitate the close encounters > >> required for fusion. > >> > > >> > This reminds me I had promised Fred I would post a derivation of allowed > >> (unshrunken) circular electron orbits radii in Bohr's semi-classical model > >> for the H atom, here is one (it may not be the shortest route, > >> improvements/comments welcome): > >> > -------------------------------- > >> > Notations (values in SI) > >> > ----------------- > >> > k coulombic force constant (8.99*10^9) > >> > me electron mass (9.11*10^-31) > >> > e electron charge (1.6*10^-19) > >> > h Planck's constant (6.6x10^-34) > >> > v orbital velocity > >> > r orbit radius > >> > n integral number (of wavelengths in orbit circumference) > >> > > >> > F=ma (Newton's 2nd law) > >> > ---- > >> > k*e*e/r²=me*v²/r > >> > k*e²=me*v²*r > >> > r=k*e²/(me*v²) (1) > >> > > >> > Bohr's postulate: orbit circumference is a multiple of the > >> > electron's velocity-dependent De Broglie wavelength h/(me*v) > >> > (which I view as a condition of non self-destruction of the > >> > electron as a wave. Such self-destructive interference would > >> > be the main obstacle to my believing in hydrinos if the wave > >> > particle duality made total sense to me ;) > >> > ------------------- > >> > n*h/(me*v)=2*pi*r (2) > >> > > >> > (1) and (2) => n*h/(me*v)=2*pi*k*e²/(me*v²) > >> > n*h*v=2*pi*k*e² > >> > v=2*pi*k*e²/(n*h) > >> > > >> > (2)=> r=n*h/(me*v*2*pi) > >> > r=n*h/(me*2*pi*(2*pi*k*e²)/(n*h)) > >> > r=(n*h)²/(me*(2*pi)²*k*e²) > >> > r=n²*(6.6x10^-34)²/(9.11*10^-31*39.4*8.99*10^9*((1.6*10^-19)²))) > >> > r=n²*52.7*10^-12 m > >> > > >> > One recognizes the 52.7 pm base level Bohr radius so it must be right ;) > >> > ----------------------------------- > >> > Michel > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > >> > To: > >> > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:52 AM > >> > Subject: [Vo]: New Hydrino page posted > >> > > >> > > >> > > Hi, > >> > > > >> > > I have just put up a new Hydrino page for those who are interested. > >> Please see:- > >> > > > >> > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/Molecular%20Hydrino%20Fusion.htm > >> > > > >> > > Regards, > >> > > > >> > > Robin van Spaandonk > >> > > > >> > > If "other people" can be denied their rights, then what's > >> > > to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"? > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 08:49:14 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGGn59o023552; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 08:49:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGGn383023527; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 08:49:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 08:49:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type; b=RjHOffeB7qXHApT1SD017f4UcOdTn0s/Dzn4i9CTTiBZLRT1eScvQpQEO52+R6dwbO0s4iIiAv90jSpdzVE5ubrhjGznS7t3Q5npa7QjA+TC463jh2DItru3U8SqwyNUE/NmzA9VrPcBkdUgXvF3POoRmfgKK4oyq6EqY8tEdN8= ; X-YMail-OSG: qhldXI0VM1lIR4TKS4ZaEFcM0GgTnQUND2k4TxqCAI6F8gz6Sl2c_SYKtsiyxOu.4NPWpvVerf_eGYSPZC9kUDJTdKxQdVkDY60JsqjG0_phNM6BpCJSc2OHH6lOVYyuOFbw2PmDBO3qlzQ- Message-ID: <45842377.8090206 pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 08:48:55 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (Windows/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bohr model and hydrinos (was Re: New Hydrino page posted) References: <016401c72108$97a3fc30$3800a8c0@zothan> <357653710612160500u3d65b360j4e7ad413debf30fc@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <357653710612160500u3d65b360j4e7ad413debf30fc mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030701080309050008010703" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030701080309050008010703 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit David Jonsson wrote: > Hi > > Change permittivity €0 and you will get a different orbit. > > David Not to mention there is every reason to suspect that permittivity will change at subangstom dimensions. Especially if you have any appreciation for a hierarchical aether. What I like about Robin's addition is item 6 Example reactions are:- ^18 O + Hy_2 -> ^16 O + ^4 He + 16 MeV ^40 Ar + Hy_2 -> ^38 Ar + ^4 He + 12 MeV ^48 Ti + Hy_2 -> ^46 Ti + ^4 He + 8 MeV These are three reactions offer an explanation for the instances in the literature of arc discharges where energy anomalies have been seen, or especially in the case of Ti - there are a number of LENR experiments showing energy anomalies. I would expect the actual energy balance to be less than indicated, since this probably does not take into account the energy already shed to get to the Hy state - but anyway it is substantial. It would be very interesting to know, for instance, if there is any surplus of 38Ar in the Aurora Borealis, or in Robin's case the Aurora Australis. If there is - that would be all the confirmation required to at least shift the burden of proof to the hydrino skeptics (tout le monde, so to speak)... Jones --------------030701080309050008010703 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
David Jonsson wrote:
Hi
 
Change permittivity €0 and you will get a different orbit.
 
David

Not to mention there is every reason to suspect that permittivity will change at subangstom dimensions. Especially if you have any appreciation for a hierarchical aether.

What I like about Robin's addition is item 6

Example reactions are:-
18O + Hy2 -> 16O + 4He + 16 MeV
40Ar + Hy2 -> 38Ar + 4He + 12 MeV
48Ti + Hy2 -> 46Ti + 4He + 8 MeV


These are three reactions offer an explanation for the instances in the literature of arc discharges where energy anomalies have been seen, or especially in the case of Ti - there are a number of LENR experiments showing energy anomalies. I would expect the actual energy balance to be less than indicated, since this probably does not take into account the energy already shed to get to the Hy state - but anyway it is substantial.

It would be very interesting to know, for instance, if there is any surplus of 38Ar in the Aurora Borealis, or in Robin's case the Aurora Australis.

If there is - that would be all the confirmation required to at least shift the burden of proof to the hydrino skeptics (tout le monde, so to speak)...

Jones


--------------030701080309050008010703-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 09:02:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGH2bUY013227; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 09:02:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGH2VWA013176; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 09:02:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 09:02:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <066b01c72133$f3781390$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200612616151450393 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 18:02:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBGH2Nxg013011 Resent-Message-ID: <66FtlC.A.zND.maChFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There are loads of radio sources more powerful than the cosmic background out there, and the cosmic background is ubiquitous as you said so you wouldn't expect a daily variation. As discussed here several times before, extracting electrical energy from radio waves to power an electrical device is nothing extraordinary, e.g. that's how crystal radios power themselves, loudspeaker included. Whether significant energy can be extracted from _extraterrestrial_ radio sources I don't know, one would have to look up the watts per square meter we get from them but I suspect a huge array of antennas would be needed to heat one's house :) If it's only sizeable during daytime, solar energy is certainly cheaper to collect. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 4:14 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device > Going by speculation posted earlier and Moray's comment that > "the daytime energy was greater", I think number 3, photon-photon > heterodyning at the metal-superficial metal oxide aerial surface would be worth > a look. > A roll of aluminum foil stretched across the room as the aerial, with > a Coherer, a good ground, and some megahz to gigahz tuning > components and a light bulb load. > A near-infrared (2.414729E14 Hz) photon wavelength of 1.242 micron 1.0 eV > beating against a 1.0 eV (2.414715E14 Hz) infrared photon would > give a 1.42 gigaHz beat frequency, and so on. > > BTW. 1.428 gigaHz is the ubiquitous 21 cm cosmic background (3 K) frequency. > > Fred > Ignoring T. H. Moray's ventures into solid state physics with > emphasis on his pre-1912 results using a long-wire antenna, a > ferrous metal powder "Coherer" and a good ground opens up > several possibilities for extracting useable energy from the cosmos. > > http://www.rexresearch.com/moray2/morayrer.htm > > "[p. 20] "I started my experiments with the taking of electricity from the ground, as I termed it, during the summer of 1909. By fall of 1910 I had sufficient power to operate a small electrical device, and I made a demonstration of my idea to two friends... This demonstration in the early stages consisted of operating a miniature arc light... It soon became evident that the energy was not static and that the static of the universe would be of no assistance to me in obtaining the power I was seeking... " > "During the Christmas Holidays of 1911, I began to fully realize that the energy I was working with was not of a static nature, but of an oscillating nature. Further I realized that the energy was not coming out of the earth, but instead was coming to the earth from some outside source. These electrical oscillations in the form of waves were not simple oscillations, but were surgings --- like the waves of the sea --- coming to the earth continually, more in the daytime than at night, but always coming in vibrations from the reservoir of colossal energy out there in space. By this time I was able to obtain enough power to light the old 16-candlepower carbon lamp for about one half capacity, and I did not seem to make any further improvement until the spring of 1925." " > Man-made radio waves (if Tesla wasn't around) would be hard put to exceed > 50 millivolts per meter (2.2E-14 Joule per cubic meter) or 6.6E-6 watts per square meter > at any given frequency most of which were from radio telegraphy transmitters that > predated amplitude modulated (cat whisker detector-rectifier) voice broadcasting. > Some "non-radio" possibilities: > 1, Zero point energy (ZPE) extraction-resonance effects in the Coherer? > 2, Thermoelectric (Seebeck-Peltier) thermal effects between the Aerial > and the cooler-warmer earth Ground? > 3, Surface Heterodyne (beat frequency) action between visible to far infrared > photons striking the Aerial? > 4, Radio Frequency energy coming out of the earth and radiating > off the Aerial? > 5, A reverse ground wave emergency network (GWEN) transmitter? < grin > > Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 09:53:51 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGHrgiv020643; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 09:53:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGHrRfB020568; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 09:53:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 09:53:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=krgHdX9xIKMOGhQmUZ9yGyzNcIIBEltsNJEvnPFjwQOTuwKTO7eP+JqXyz305d2r; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612616175316637 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 10:53:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940deec507a4d4bcb4c374ede724dd3ae0c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.227 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote. > > There are loads of radio sources more powerful than the cosmic background out there, and the cosmic background is ubiquitous as you said so you wouldn't expect a daily variation. > > As discussed here several times before, extracting electrical energy from radio waves to power an electrical device is nothing extraordinary, e.g. that's how crystal radios power themselves, loudspeaker included. Whether significant energy can be extracted from _extraterrestrial_ radio sources I don't know, one would have to look up the watts per square meter we get from them but I suspect a huge array of antennas would be needed to heat one's house :) If it's only sizeable during daytime, solar energy is certainly cheaper to collect. > You miss the point Michel, the visible and infrared radiation from any light source reflected off the environs can provide significant radiation energy, including the infrared to far infrared at night, if you can Photon-Photon Heterodyne it down to MegaHz-GigaHz frequencies that can be worked with. Moray noted that the daytime energy was greater.than nighttime which makes sense. IOW it's possible that the inherent copper oxide film on the copper wire aerials he used was doing the heterodyning, but the surface area of an 87 or 200 foot long aerial isn't much. Lots of possible Red Herrings in his efforts. Fred > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: "vortex-l" > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 4:14 PM > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device > > > > Going by speculation posted earlier and Moray's comment that > > "the daytime energy was greater", I think number 3, photon-photon > > heterodyning at the metal-superficial metal oxide aerial surface would be worth > > a look. > > A roll of aluminum foil stretched across the room as the aerial, with > > a Coherer, a good ground, and some megahz to gigahz tuning > > components and a light bulb load. > > A near-infrared (2.414729E14 Hz) photon wavelength of 1.242 micron 1.0 eV > > beating against a 1.0 eV (2.414715E14 Hz) infrared photon would > > give a 1.42 gigaHz beat frequency, and so on. > > > > BTW. 1.428 gigaHz is the ubiquitous 21 cm cosmic background (3 K) frequency. > > > > Fred > > Ignoring T. H. Moray's ventures into solid state physics with > > emphasis on his pre-1912 results using a long-wire antenna, a > > ferrous metal powder "Coherer" and a good ground opens up > > several possibilities for extracting useable energy from the cosmos. > > > > http://www.rexresearch.com/moray2/morayrer.htm > > > > "[p. 20] "I started my experiments with the taking of electricity from the ground, as I termed it, during the summer of 1909. By fall of 1910 I had sufficient power to operate a small electrical device, and I made a demonstration of my idea to two friends... This demonstration in the early stages consisted of operating a miniature arc light... It soon became evident that the energy was not static and that the static of the universe would be of no assistance to me in obtaining the power I was seeking... " > > "During the Christmas Holidays of 1911, I began to fully realize that the energy I was working with was not of a static nature, but of an oscillating nature. Further I realized that the energy was not coming out of the earth, but instead was coming to the earth from some outside source. These electrical oscillations in the form of waves were not simple oscillations, but were surgings --- like the waves of the sea --- coming to the earth continually, more in the daytime than at night, but always coming in vibrations from the reservoir of colossal energy out there in space. By this time I was able to obtain enough power to light the old 16-candlepower carbon lamp for about one half capacity, and I did not seem to make any further improvement until the spring of 1925." " > > Man-made radio waves (if Tesla wasn't around) would be hard put to exceed > > 50 millivolts per meter (2.2E-14 Joule per cubic meter) or 6.6E-6 watts per square meter > > at any given frequency most of which were from radio telegraphy transmitters that > > predated amplitude modulated (cat whisker detector-rectifier) voice broadcasting. > > Some "non-radio" possibilities: > > 1, Zero point energy (ZPE) extraction-resonance effects in the Coherer? > > 2, Thermoelectric (Seebeck-Peltier) thermal effects between the Aerial > > and the cooler-warmer earth Ground? > > 3, Surface Heterodyne (beat frequency) action between visible to far infrared > > photons striking the Aerial? > > 4, Radio Frequency energy coming out of the earth and radiating > > off the Aerial? > > 5, A reverse ground wave emergency network (GWEN) transmitter? < grin > > > Fred > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 14:20:22 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGMKGDW026893; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:20:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGMKFbF026888; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:20:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:20:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=WB/6+UzMuZHddjSUAUZ8aEwRRaEo0LsaHggtngGhkKzJg3OXR1QsKQR3rKjg2cv0Qki157Ji93jmhCh+niKAerXR1ZlJHp6tFBN2RGndUYZkj1wLVb0x+8H4SIU7M8/pBUXHSme9NQnaOd1NPiDM+G/WYHK4kzzw+8HqO5+MNEY= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:20:13 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <2KHsgB.A.AkG.fEHhFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Mitigating Global Warming Status: O X-Status: Can this simple wave action pump mitigate the effects of global warming and cure the cause? http://atmocean.com/ Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 14:30:57 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGMUg0C008128; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:30:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGMA1Gl019934; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:10:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:10:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=iIPu9z3Ctk/USkA7j+c0ZEoiW9G4qZBToa/7Jh0MQIbZim/j41BwuMxofh93WnZoUPhzj0fswrKZ82T+0WE36bE9eyF+B+wYAkADi/Q9Z3CcL1DA8sgsUWz/2D+RtDrjNxBYuwzKeRN5n5LrnezZSJYF+c57dAUOLy57Bwdl6SA= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:09:57 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Nuisance Spies Status: RO X-Status: Have any nuisance spies you wish to off? Well our good buddy of Area 51 fame will sell you a sample of Polonium 210: http://unitednuclear.com/isotopes.htm Of course, you'll need to buy 15,000 samples at $69 each for a lethal dose. Or *was* Agent 86 offed intentionally? Frederick Forsyth's "Fourth Protocol" envisioned the Soviet planting of nuclear mines in western cities at the time that Pershing and cruise nuclear missiles were deployed by the West. With a time to target of under 10 minutes, the Eastern Bloc had to have a counterstrike alternative. Was our missing spy carrying a defective nuclear mine trigger to London at the behest of some Russian crime syndicate? Nuclear blackmail? Inquiring minds may never know for sure. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 14:37:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGMbjjJ005162; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:37:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGMbaJh005067; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:37:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:37:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bohr model and hydrinos (was Re: New Hydrino page posted) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 09:37:27 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-2200612616123750799 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-2200612616123750799 earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 16 Dec 2006 22:37:27 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBGMbRdJ004953 Resent-Message-ID: <7LOQiB.A.APB.vUHhFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 16 Dec 2006 05:37:50 -0700: Hi Fred, [snip] >First cut response, Michel: > >1, Compton wavelength of the electron = h/mc = 2.427E-12 meters > >2, 1/alpha (137.03) * 2.427E-12 = Orbit Wavelength = 3.3258E-10 meters > >3, Orbit Radius = 3.3258E-10/2(pi) = 5.293E-11 meters. > >4, Electron Orbit Velocity c/137.03 = 2.189E6 meters/second > >How do you get a "fractional orbit" without changing the Fine Structure >Constant, Alpha? > >Fred In a nut shell, the problem you raise is only a problem if one insists on the De Broglie wave reconnecting with itself after a single circuit of the atom. By allowing an additional vibrational mode for the electron, a three dimensional Lissajous figure is created which means that the De Broglie wave doesn't reconnect with itself until additional circuits of the atom have been accomplished. This then allows shrunken orbits without changing alpha. The math is all worked out at:- http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html . Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 14:57:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGMuwCD014220; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:56:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGMuvZF014205; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:56:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:56:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bohr model and hydrinos (was Re: New Hydrino page posted) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 09:56:47 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <14u8o2podi0sgtbnjarho8bk6078f4l5t9 4ax.com> References: <016401c72108$97a3fc30$3800a8c0@zothan> <357653710612160500u3d65b360j4e7ad413debf30fc@mail.gmail.com> <45842377.8090206@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45842377.8090206 pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 16 Dec 2006 22:56:47 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBGMulM0014142 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sat, 16 Dec 2006 08:48:55 -0800: Hi, [snip] >I would expect the actual energy balance to be >less than indicated, since this probably does not take into account the >energy already shed to get to the Hy state - but anyway it is substantial. Since all the energy initially in the atoms is measured as mass, it doesn't matter how it is divided across shrinkage reactions and nuclear reactions. The sum of the two always equals the amount calculated for the nuclear reaction. The energy release of the fusion reaction proper is always reduced by exactly the amount previously released during shrinkage. Of course if the Hydrinos are formed on the Sun, then we do effectively lose the shrinkage energy, but that is always insignificant relative to the fusion reaction energy anyway. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 14:59:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGMwv77015680; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:58:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGMwuMF015645; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:58:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:58:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bohr model and hydrinos (was Re: New Hydrino page posted) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 09:58:52 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0eu8o2lrplc6qed4jhuadni4qegu7vrb81 4ax.com> References: <016401c72108$97a3fc30$3800a8c0@zothan> <357653710612160500u3d65b360j4e7ad413debf30fc@mail.gmail.com> <45842377.8090206@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45842377.8090206 pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 16 Dec 2006 22:58:52 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBGMwqss015535 Resent-Message-ID: <8qBv_.A.W0D.voHhFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sat, 16 Dec 2006 08:48:55 -0800: Hi, [snip] >It would be very interesting to know, for instance, if there is any >surplus of 38Ar in the Aurora Borealis, or in Robin's case the Aurora >Australis. [snip] Since there is always a small amount of 38Ar present in natural Argon anyway, any increase due to formation in the Auroras would likely be undetectable. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 15:16:09 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGNG36e028820; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:16:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGNFwKb028743; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:15:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:15:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mitigating Global Warming Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 10:15:51 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 16 Dec 2006 23:15:51 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBGNFpAQ028692 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:20:13 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Can this simple wave action pump mitigate the effects of global >warming and cure the cause? > >http://atmocean.com/ > >Terry I suspect the problem lies in that someone forgot to calculate the actual amount of pumping that would need to be done in order to have a noticeable effect. Besides, I think I prefer OTEC, which acts as a double edged sword. It both reduces the surface temperature and provides electric power to displace coal fired power stations, thereby reducing the CO2 burden. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 15:23:15 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBGNN7b6031014; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:23:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBGNN61S031000; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:23:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:23:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Ld3rfdqmd8wvQLWQscw+WYR+Ka2BB3jH3KdwXh5kMgfGq0YbzTNNuU/EOyQeL07pnOgd/Tr8pnQqLWOwzfnmu0jyptzRmxDKJScyNwBcs7V6ehljFkG1gtpcEcfMhd8NHqJccA9D2HxoVCsLM3mRcjr9FxDwl0kN6APX5i2k85I= Message-ID: <357653710612161522m78b7dba9ibadfd26ecb7c93df mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 00:22:59 +0100 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden gmail.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mitigating Global Warming In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5938_15432774.1166311379658" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 1c6aa695c8c25d90 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_5938_15432774.1166311379658 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The error here is that the buoy is asumed to be so small that it will not affect the wave. There will be reflection of energy if the buoy is too stiff. Another problem is that the entire setup will be displaced sideways by the wave. David On 12/16/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > > Can this simple wave action pump mitigate the effects of global > warming and cure the cause? > > http://atmocean.com/ > > Terry > > ------=_Part_5938_15432774.1166311379658 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
The error here is that the buoy is asumed to be so small that it will not affect the wave. There will be reflection of energy if the buoy is too stiff. Another problem is that the entire setup will be displaced sideways by the wave.
 
David

 
On 12/16/06, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
Can this simple wave action pump mitigate the effects of global
warming and cure the cause?

http://atmocean.com/

Terry


------=_Part_5938_15432774.1166311379658-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 19:19:05 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBH3J1GQ031528; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:19:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBH3IuWG031510; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:18:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:18:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 22:18:49 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1166325529" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5324 X-Spam-Flag: YES Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: It's not new energy but I've had a good year Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1166325529 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope you all have done as well. Merry Christmas, happy new year, do something good for someone. My story for 2006 http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/normin.html Frank Z -------------------------------1166325529 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I hope you all have done as well.  Merry Christmas, happy new year= , do=20 something good for someone.  My story for 2006
 
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/normin.html
 
 
 
Frank Z
 -------------------------------1166325529-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 21:46:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBH5kA9E006282; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 21:46:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBH5k196006192; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 21:46:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 21:46:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 16:45:46 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-2200612212121328423 earthlink.net> <002e01c71f61$4523eea0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <002e01c71f61$4523eea0$3800a8c0 zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 17 Dec 2006 05:45:52 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBH5jsd7006104 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:21:21 +0100: Hi Michel, [snip] >This made me wonder how much electrical energy would be thus stored in this Earth-atmosphere capacitor: > >C*V^2/2=q*V/2 = (28 440 * 300 000) / 2 = 4 266 000 000 = 4.3*10^9 J You forgot to square the voltage. ;) The correct answer is 1.28E15 J. Still only a tiny fraction of what we use on a daily basis, but then how do we know it takes the Sun a whole day to charge this capacitor? > >This is two orders of magnitude less than the 4.3*10^11 J order of magnitude estimate at page 20 of this physics lecture material (a good reference for capacitor calculations BTW): >http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/632.ral5q.summer06/Lecture1-16_Powerpoints/lecture_5_mat/PHYS632_C5_25_Capac.ppt > >This energy, according to the same source, is renewed daily by the sun (king sized photovoltaic module ;). But even their much higher estimate is still 2 million times less than the world's daily energy consumption (about 10^18J), very disappointing! > >Michel Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 22:11:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBH6BOZm017604; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 22:11:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBH6BNhh017579; Sat, 16 Dec 2006 22:11:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 22:11:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 17:10:39 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7jn9o2ddatagb3h8jomdkhu34dfb48lamh 4ax.com> References: <410-2200612212121328423 earthlink.net> <002e01c71f61$4523eea0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 17 Dec 2006 06:10:45 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBH6Akbe017381 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Sun, 17 Dec 2006 16:45:46 +1100: Oops! My mistake. I didn't read carefully enough, and thought you were calculating C*V^2/2 rather than q*V/2. Then I falsely assumed that my own number was farads rather than C! Just goes to show, I should never try using my brain in the afternoon. It just doesn't work right. :( [snip] >In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:21:21 +0100: >Hi Michel, >[snip] >>This made me wonder how much electrical energy would be thus stored in this Earth-atmosphere capacitor: >> >>C*V^2/2=q*V/2 = (28 440 * 300 000) / 2 = 4 266 000 000 = 4.3*10^9 J > >You forgot to square the voltage. ;) > >The correct answer is 1.28E15 J. Still only a tiny fraction of what we use on a >daily basis, but then how do we know it takes the Sun a whole day to charge this >capacitor? > >> >>This is two orders of magnitude less than the 4.3*10^11 J order of magnitude estimate at page 20 of this physics lecture material (a good reference for capacitor calculations BTW): >>http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/632.ral5q.summer06/Lecture1-16_Powerpoints/lecture_5_mat/PHYS632_C5_25_Capac.ppt >> >>This energy, according to the same source, is renewed daily by the sun (king sized photovoltaic module ;). But even their much higher estimate is still 2 million times less than the world's daily energy consumption (about 10^18J), very disappointing! >> >>Michel >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition provides the motivation, >Cooperation provides the means. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 02:05:57 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBHA5lVc025338; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 02:05:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBHA5juR025327; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 02:05:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 02:05:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <06c001c721c2$e9395850$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200612212121328423 earthlink.net> <002e01c71f61$4523eea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7jn9o2ddatagb3h8jomdkhu34dfb48lamh@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:05:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBHA5gRS025308 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's OK Robin, it happens to me all the time :) Your other point is valid though, we don't know how long it takes the Sun to charge this capacitor. But it's unlikely it charges it in one two millionth of a day = 43 ms, which would be required for it to provide the world's daily energy consumption :/ Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 7:10 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff > In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Sun, 17 Dec 2006 16:45:46 +1100: > > Oops! My mistake. I didn't read carefully enough, and thought you were > calculating C*V^2/2 rather than q*V/2. Then I falsely assumed that my own number > was farads rather than C! Just goes to show, I should never try using my brain > in the afternoon. It just doesn't work right. :( > > [snip] >>In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:21:21 +0100: >>Hi Michel, >>[snip] >>>This made me wonder how much electrical energy would be thus stored in this Earth-atmosphere capacitor: >>> >>>C*V^2/2=q*V/2 = (28 440 * 300 000) / 2 = 4 266 000 000 = 4.3*10^9 J >> >>You forgot to square the voltage. ;) >> >>The correct answer is 1.28E15 J. Still only a tiny fraction of what we use on a >>daily basis, but then how do we know it takes the Sun a whole day to charge this >>capacitor? >> >>> >>>This is two orders of magnitude less than the 4.3*10^11 J order of magnitude estimate at page 20 of this physics lecture material (a good reference for capacitor calculations BTW): >>>http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/632.ral5q.summer06/Lecture1-16_Powerpoints/lecture_5_mat/PHYS632_C5_25_Capac.ppt >>> >>>This energy, according to the same source, is renewed daily by the sun (king sized photovoltaic module ;). But even their much higher estimate is still 2 million times less than the world's daily energy consumption (about 10^18J), very disappointing! >>> >>>Michel >>Regards, >> >>Robin van Spaandonk >> >>http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >> >>Competition provides the motivation, >>Cooperation provides the means. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 03:22:07 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBHBLsFc014248; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 03:21:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBHBLqp7014226; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 03:21:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 03:21:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=NE/uFGJr0dp+A+mMM0ZrjXx0cFhjtiXVnjBEP3yCpRsK6M6TAL9M9r+6/7t+h3BN; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612017112143814 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 04:21:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401600c2a21cbdb328d242a7f39c7ee538350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.97 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII It seems that there is a substantial difference between the Earth's net negative charge (~ 500,000 C) and it's surface charge (`26,000 C). http://www.nofc.forestry.ca/fire/faq_lightning_e.php#one "The Earth is electrically charged and acts as a spherical capacitor. The Earth has a net negative charge of about a million coulombs, while an equal and positive charge resides in the atmosphere." AND amongst others that are close. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-10/972662284.Es.r.html "The solid Earth has a negative charge of about a half million coulombs. The atmosphere has a roughly equal and opposite charge, so that the Earth as a whole is roughly neutral. The charge difference produces a "fair weather electric field" in the lower atmosphere averaging about 6 volts per meter -- however, this field varies strongly with altitude, and is nearly 100 volts per meter at ground level. The total voltage difference between the ground charge and the atmosphere's charge (which exists roughly 30-50 km up) is about 300,000 volts. A simple calculation shows that the total energy stored in the fair weather electric field is 150 billion joules." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
It seems that there is a substantial difference between the Earth's
net negative charge (~ 500,000 C) and it's surface charge (`26,000 C).
 
 
"The Earth is electrically charged and acts as a spherical capacitor. The Earth has a net negative charge of about a million coulombs, while an equal and positive charge resides in the atmosphere."
 
AND amongst others that are close.
 
 
"The solid Earth has a negative charge of about a half million coulombs. The atmosphere has a roughly equal and opposite charge, so that the Earth as a whole is roughly neutral. The charge difference produces a "fair weather electric field" in the lower atmosphere averaging about 6 volts per meter -- however, this field varies strongly with altitude, and is nearly 100 volts per meter at ground level. The total voltage difference between the ground charge and the atmosphere's charge (which exists roughly 30-50 km up) is about 300,000 volts. A simple calculation shows that the total energy stored in the fair weather electric field is 150 billion joules."
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 05:58:35 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBHDwRbT014185; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 05:58:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBHDwPJb014160; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 05:58:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 05:58:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=LUYacg5cx28FdHUn82pp+vTC6jtLLK7TmkqUD0hI65JwTALtC7T4Zx2SPCYykrjEbr3aH/61a/UBFD3ShP0MgB6ypzlMQP0UHx+5rrXftFasBhf7BAOXnq2SWdt88koADzFM5K3Aax42BzUIf809MFRaYg0ugMvh440CvDtJU9o= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 02:58:25 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_135_1340448.1166363905299" Resent-Message-ID: <8vemHB.A.GdD.B0UhFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Measuring Precession Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_135_1340448.1166363905299 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am planning an experiment to see if I can cause a rotation of the aether in a metal ring, and then by rotating the ring (on an axis through it's cross section) see if any processional forces appear. (so if the aether is moving, and assuming this has an inertial effect it would be precessing) Some type of processional force is claimed by the Steven's device. Can anyone suggest a great way to detect even very small processional forces? ------=_Part_135_1340448.1166363905299 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am planning an experiment to see if I can cause a rotation of the aether in a metal ring, and then by rotating the ring (on an axis through it's cross section) see if any processional forces appear. (so if the aether is moving, and assuming this has an inertial effect it would be precessing)

Some type of processional force is claimed by the Steven's device.

Can anyone suggest a great way to detect even very small processional forces?

------=_Part_135_1340448.1166363905299-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 06:38:33 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBHEcIBJ032425; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 06:38:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBHEcGVl032406; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 06:38:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 06:38:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000e01c721e8$f9a492b0$88027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re:Measuring Precession Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 08:38:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C721B6.ADEAF710" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <_b-cfB.A.M6H.YZVhFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C721B6.ADEAF710 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C721B6.ADEAF710" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C721B6.ADEAF710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJohn Berry wrote.. Some type of processional force is claimed by the Steven's device. Can anyone suggest a great way to detect even very small processional = forces? Howdy John, Dr.R.Stiffler posts on this group. You may ask him. He has been doing = some interesting work in this area using magnetics. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C721B6.ADEAF710 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
John Berry wrote..
 
Some type of processional force is claimed by the Steven's=20 device.

Can anyone suggest a great way to detect even very small=20 processional forces?
 

Howdy John,

Dr.R.Stiffler posts on this group. You may ask him. He has been doing = some=20 interesting work in this area using magnetics.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C721B6.ADEAF710-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C721B6.ADEAF710 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c721e8$f8793210$88027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C721B6.ADEAF710-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 07:18:10 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBHFHpqO014178; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 07:17:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBHFHf4V013711; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 07:17:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 07:17:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <06f301c721ee$77b4f730$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200612616123750799 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bohr model and hydrinos (was Re: New Hydrino page posted) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 16:17:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBHFHU0s012890 Resent-Message-ID: <5PdEj.A.IWD.V-VhFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Your "multiple wraps before reconnection" scheme makes sense Robin, indeed if the trajectory only repeats after several non-circular circuits the total length of which remains a multiple of the De Broglie wavelength, then no destructive self-interference occurs. If one admits such a possibility hydrinos become possible I guess. This might even be doable without violating present laws of physics, in the shape of classical precessing elliptical orbits repeating every so many orbits instead of Bohr's plain circular orbits. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bohr model and hydrinos (was Re: New Hydrino page posted) > In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 16 Dec 2006 05:37:50 -0700: > Hi Fred, > [snip] >>First cut response, Michel: >> >>1, Compton wavelength of the electron = h/mc = 2.427E-12 meters >> >>2, 1/alpha (137.03) * 2.427E-12 = Orbit Wavelength = 3.3258E-10 meters >> >>3, Orbit Radius = 3.3258E-10/2(pi) = 5.293E-11 meters. >> >>4, Electron Orbit Velocity c/137.03 = 2.189E6 meters/second >> >>How do you get a "fractional orbit" without changing the Fine Structure >>Constant, Alpha? >> >>Fred > > > In a nut shell, the problem you raise is only a problem if one insists on the De > Broglie wave reconnecting with itself after a single circuit of the atom. By > allowing an additional vibrational mode for the electron, a three dimensional > Lissajous figure is created which means that the De Broglie wave doesn't > reconnect with itself until additional circuits of the atom have been > accomplished. This then allows shrunken orbits without changing alpha. > > The math is all worked out at:- > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html . > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 09:44:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBHHi5Eb032405; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 09:44:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBHHi22V032391; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 09:44:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 09:44:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type; b=o7REJbGr1rDQIOsZIKi+PJP0OjLJ1z50BpOyezJts7CX1KAMeWxlswav6q0YnS8eOx8Eygg1KQIggopQTMrGabdoE3ua2Km2K2iGIgL3HcZiWkxUuCWXwutZKuEvetvzO1CRo2wU39ysZAsEOIBiCt6NCCJtJ9TjgEoPEVK0bEU= ; X-YMail-OSG: Mw3NJKEVM1kcM9BjHW14WYU_IqhtcSmrfAMYKtJySfYul9MQwO6JT0_SkS1NyR9w2V4bfJXJj_x5RYt9u376pCipaG5gGer5OaVljNNNAGWS4kB.TEwY7g-- Message-ID: <458581DC.9080108 pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 09:43:56 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (Windows/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040506050502040902010103" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040506050502040902010103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Going-Green at BMW BMW, the German car company has been heavily promoting and publicizing the "BMW Hydrogen 7" luxury car in both Europe and the USA - much more so in Europe than many in the US realize. Methinks they are trying to line up the political allies and "green machine" socio-dynamics for early adoption of government-supported H2 there. http://www.bmwworld.com/hydrogen/stragegy.htm This car has an amazing 12 cylinder 260 horsepower engine, which is proven to be 50% efficient on H2 and 35% eff. on gasoline. You do not need 12 cylinders for that, however. This massive-increase in the Carnot efficiency figure is in keeping with the recent Ford results, which some US skeptics did not see as the norm, or repeatable, especially since Ford (as usual) did not heavily promote this finding or put it to use. There are at least two good reasons why H2 as fuel is far more efficient IN THE SAME ENGINE. More on that later, but perhaps the best intermediate use is NOT even as BMW appears to be doing - which is the cryogenic route. "Boosting" of gasoline will give similar increases in Carnot eff. without cryogenics. The 12 cylinders and supercharger are supposedly are a "message" to the automotive world of engineering prowess, but actually Ford did a very similar thing a year ago with four cylinders, as mentioned, and with less fanfare amongst the critics (many of whom are dependent on petrodollars in one form or another. Like the Ford Focus, this BMW can run on either gasoline or hydrogen, but emits zero harmful pollutants when powered by hydrogen and has well over 40 percent higher Carnot efficiency (35% vs 50% in the same engine). In the gasoline mode, this engine gets about 17 miles per gallon on the Highway. In the H2 mode the mileage per gallon of fuel is almost the same as with gasoline, but the liquid H2 weighs about one tenth as much as gasoline. The Ford used compressed H2 instead of liquid. Neither storage method is ideal. Liquid Hydrogen (LH2) is contained in a cryogenic trunk-mounted tank in the Beamer, which tank can be heated on demand, and the resultant gas is injected into the intake manifold. The comparative ratio of fuel usage *by volume of liquid* is about 10-1 and that same ratio holds for *by weight* comparison. This ten-to-one ratio of comparative fuel usage is *actual and proven* beyond any doubt in this vehicle over 100,000 miles, so the lower figures which are sometimes used (by the oil-company sponsored press, for instance) of as low as a 4-1 ratio are grossly in error. The oil companies do NOT want to acknowledge the much higher Carnot efficiency of hydrogen combustion (or boosting) and they have consistently been able to find PhDs who will say that this higher efficiency is technically impossible! Now that Ford's results are vindicated, I think these guys will have to shut up the dis-info garbage. The air/H2 ratio is around 60:1 in the Hydrogen 7, though engineers at both BMW and Ford found their engine would run as EXTREMELY lean, as much as 100:1 air/H2 ratio. This is a key as gasoline can NEVER be used in such a lean mix. The molecule is a comparative snail when it comes to combustion mobility. It all gets back to the incredible *mobility* and freedom of movement at high pressure - of the proton during combustion. The protons are like little buzz-saws, tearing up larger molecules in a combustion chamber. That is reason #-1) for the higher Carnot. Reason number two relates to the compressive strength of steam vs CO2. Even though 75% of the exhaust, in either case - gasoline or H2 fuel - is going to be nitrogen (based on the initial ~80% of air intake) the tripling (in comparative advantage) of steam compressive strength will add 20% higher "effective psi" to each cylinder at the top of the power stroke when using steam at the same temperature as CO2. This is huge since it also promotes a longer burn time in the case of a mix of H2 and gasoline (the so-called "boosted" situation). BMW did not modify the engine in terms of exotic valves, manifold etc. The temperatures of combustion are such that corrosion isn't a problem. The only issue is when the exhaust gases cool and condense in the muffler(no catalytic converter is needed, if only H2 is used). The cost of a catalytic converter and cryogenic tanks is roughly comparable, so the real comparison for BMW is simple. When liguid H2 is available commercially in Germany for something near the equivalent price per gallon of gasoline, or about ten times higher in price per pound (gasoline is about one euro per liter now) then the H2 auto will be competitive on fuel cost and much easier on the environment. This will probably be enough to keep it untaxed. That cost balancing situation will probably happen in Germany within two years if gasoline continues to rise above $60/ barrel. Germany has no significant oil, but lots of low grade coal(peat) which can yield hydrogen. It is significant that turning H2 into a cryogenic liquid is rather wasteful, however. Other might even opine: brain-dead! However, BMW is definitely missing the immediate gaol and benefit of "boosting" - or else they do not want to overload the PR channels yet. One liter of water can about produce 2030 liters of "common manifold" hydrogen/oxygen gas vapor, called "Hydroxy" or "Brwon's gas" or "aquafuel" by the promoters of the various schemes for onboard electrolyis. There are indications that this gas is more efficient - up to double in efficiency - than if just the hydrogen component of the mixed gas were to be separated out of it, and used alone. To me - some form of "boosting" seems like the way to go - in the USA at least, since it will allow the Carnot efficiency of a gasoline engine to be raised almost as much as with pure hydrogen (to 45%). The USA could be very close to achieving self-sufficiency on gasoline, with widespread hydrogen boosting plus a few other things like high taxes on gas guzzlers. But definitely - with both boosting, and the hybrid configuration, and bio-diesel from cellulose, then we could be nearly self-sufficient (and out of the middle East) before the next decade. Jones --------------040506050502040902010103 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Going-Green at BMW

BMW, the German car company has been heavily promoting and publicizing the "BMW Hydrogen 7" luxury car in both Europe and the USA - much more so in Europe than many in the US realize. Methinks they are trying to line up the political allies and "green machine" socio-dynamics for early adoption of government-supported H2 there.

http://www.bmwworld.com/hydrogen/stragegy.htm

This car has an amazing 12 cylinder 260 horsepower engine, which is proven to be 50% efficient on H2 and 35% eff. on gasoline. You do not need 12 cylinders for that, however.

This massive-increase in the Carnot efficiency figure is in keeping with the recent Ford results, which some US skeptics did not see as the norm, or repeatable, especially since Ford (as usual) did not heavily promote this finding or put it to use.

There are at least two good reasons why H2 as fuel is far more efficient IN THE SAME ENGINE. More on that later, but perhaps the best intermediate use is NOT even as BMW appears to be doing - which is the cryogenic route. "Boosting" of gasoline will give similar increases in Carnot eff. without cryogenics.

The 12 cylinders and supercharger are supposedly are a "message" to the automotive world of engineering prowess, but actually Ford did a very similar thing a year ago with four cylinders, as mentioned, and with less fanfare amongst the critics (many of whom are dependent on petrodollars in one form or another. Like the Ford Focus, this BMW can run on either gasoline or hydrogen, but emits zero harmful pollutants when powered by hydrogen and has well over 40 percent higher Carnot efficiency (35% vs 50% in the same engine).

In the gasoline mode, this engine gets about 17 miles per gallon on the Highway. In the H2 mode the mileage per gallon of fuel is almost the same as with gasoline, but the liquid H2 weighs about one tenth as much as gasoline. The Ford used compressed H2 instead of liquid. Neither storage method is ideal. Liquid Hydrogen (LH2) is contained in a cryogenic trunk-mounted tank in the Beamer, which tank can be heated on demand, and the resultant gas is injected into the intake manifold. The comparative ratio of fuel usage *by volume of liquid* is about 10-1 and that same ratio holds for *by weight* comparison.

This ten-to-one ratio of comparative fuel usage is *actual and proven* beyond any doubt in this vehicle over 100,000 miles, so the lower figures which are sometimes used (by the oil-company sponsored press, for instance) of as low as a 4-1 ratio are grossly in error. The oil companies do NOT want to acknowledge the much higher Carnot efficiency of hydrogen combustion (or boosting) and they have consistently been able to find PhDs who will say that this higher efficiency is technically impossible! Now that Ford's results are vindicated, I think these guys will have to shut up the dis-info garbage.

The air/H2 ratio is around 60:1 in the Hydrogen 7, though engineers at both BMW and Ford found their engine would run as EXTREMELY lean, as much as 100:1 air/H2 ratio. This is a key as gasoline can NEVER be used in such a lean mix. The molecule is a comparative snail when it comes to combustion mobility.

It all gets back to the incredible *mobility* and freedom of movement at high pressure - of the proton during combustion. The protons are like little buzz-saws, tearing up larger molecules in a combustion chamber. That is reason #-1) for the higher Carnot. Reason number two relates to the compressive strength of steam vs CO2. Even though 75% of the exhaust, in either case - gasoline or H2 fuel - is going to be nitrogen (based on the initial ~80% of air intake) the tripling (in comparative advantage) of steam compressive strength will add 20% higher "effective psi" to each cylinder at the top of the power stroke when using steam at the same temperature as CO2. This is huge since it also promotes a longer burn time in the case of a mix of H2 and gasoline (the so-called "boosted" situation).

BMW did not modify the engine in terms of exotic valves, manifold etc. The temperatures of combustion are such that corrosion isn't a problem. The only issue is when the exhaust gases cool and condense in the muffler(no catalytic converter is needed, if only H2 is used). The cost of a catalytic converter and cryogenic tanks is roughly comparable, so the real comparison for BMW is simple.

When liguid H2 is available commercially in Germany for something near the equivalent price per gallon of gasoline, or about ten times higher in price per pound (gasoline is about one euro per liter now) then the H2 auto will be competitive on fuel cost and much easier on the environment. This will probably be enough to keep it untaxed. That cost balancing situation will probably happen in Germany within two years if gasoline continues to rise above $60/ barrel. Germany has no significant oil, but lots of low grade coal(peat) which can yield hydrogen. It is significant that turning H2 into a cryogenic liquid is rather wasteful, however. Other might even opine: brain-dead!

However, BMW is definitely missing the immediate gaol and benefit of "boosting" - or else they do not want to overload the PR channels yet.

One liter of water can about produce 2030 liters of "common manifold" hydrogen/oxygen gas vapor, called "Hydroxy" or "Brwon's gas" or "aquafuel" by the promoters of the various schemes for onboard electrolyis. There are indications that this gas is more efficient - up to double in efficiency - than if just the hydrogen component of the mixed gas were to be separated out of it, and used alone.

To me - some form of "boosting" seems like the way to go - in the USA  at least, since it will allow the Carnot efficiency of a gasoline engine to be raised almost as much as with pure hydrogen (to 45%). The USA could be very close to achieving self-sufficiency on gasoline, with widespread hydrogen boosting plus a few other things like high taxes on gas guzzlers. But definitely - with both boosting, and the hybrid configuration, and bio-diesel from cellulose, then we could be nearly self-sufficient (and out of the middle East) before the next decade.

Jones

 --------------040506050502040902010103-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 11:12:39 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBHJCSY2027566; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:12:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBHJCQQA027544; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:12:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:12:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=leOkTdexcldk1KCAuA5mfEcK2bTMLIjdW+iF28X2jMsvwwZNGcExjpO1NdY31LpbRjLWQSCOOswHUrNZOOTta/N2s3LxNXUBmnAqSDgmNh39OqG/wD9X2OzmU/5lT1IYu4vdNjnbUIcNLGo2J3WQKoh+MneqoZQJgIUrc1Goa9Y= ; Message-ID: <20061217191225.88567.qmail web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:12:25 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Green Beamer To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1309926440-1166382745=:87005" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1309926440-1166382745=:87005 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry for the hasty message with more typos than the normal excessive amoun= t. =0A=0A=0AWhen it was stated that: The comparative ratio of fuel usage by= =0Avolume of liquid is about 10-1 and that same ratio holds for *by=0Aweigh= t* comparison. =0A=0A... obviously an oops.=0A=0AThat is incorrect, as the = 10-1 ratio advantage for hydrogen over gasoline is by weight only, not by v= olume. Doh. But the statement "This ten-to-one ratio of comparative fuel us= age is *actual and proven*=0Abeyond any doubt in this vehicle over 100,000 = miles...." that part is true, but it refers to fuel usage by weight of hydr= ogen, which is stored in the form of a cryogenic liquid in that engine.=0A= =0ACuriously with hydrogen - the liquid is about the same density as the co= mpressed gas which is used by Ford; but needless to say the Ford tank must = be much stronger in order to hold gas at several thousand psi. In either ca= se the volume of the tank is not very different.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-1309926440-1166382745=:87005 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry for the hasty message with more typos than th= e normal excessive amount.

=0AWhen it w= as stated that: The comparative ratio of fuel usage by=0Avolume of liquid i= s about 10-1 and that same ratio holds for *by=0Aweight* comparison.
... obviously an oops.

That is incorrect, as the 10-1 ratio advant= age for hydrogen over gasoline is by weight only, not by volume. Doh. But t= he statement "This ten-to-one ratio of comparative fuel usage is *actual an= d proven*=0Abeyond any doubt in this vehicle over 100,000 miles...." that p= art is true, but it refers to fuel usage by weight of hydrogen, which is st= ored in the form of a cryogenic liquid in that engine.

Curiously wit= h hydrogen - the liquid is about the same density as the compressed gas whi= ch is used by Ford; but needless to say the Ford tank must be much stronger= in order to hold gas at several thousand psi. In either case the volume of= the tank is not very different.




=
--0-1309926440-1166382745=:87005-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 11:40:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBHJdxq1020834; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:40:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBHJdvMc020787; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:39:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:39:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 14:38:38 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:17:58 -0500: > Hi Harry, > [snip] >>>> You might ask, isn't the function of gravitational mass to attract? >>>> This answer is no. Gravitational mass reflects a body's indifference >>>> to having its gravitational acceleration impeded by another body. >>> [snip] >>> I'm sorry, but I can make no sense whatever out of this. Perhaps you could >>> put >>> it in other words? >>> >> >> >> >> Mechanics is _a_ science of motion. However it has become an ideology >> of motion over the last 250 hundred years. >> I will put together a cut and paste history of the science of motion from >> Aristotle to Newton with selections I have gathered from the internet over >> the years. >> >> Harry >> > I'm afraid a history isn't going to address the issue, and besides I have > little > patience with historical texts anyway. One usually ends up wading through > reams > of irrelevant nonsense, in the vague hope of extracting one or two gems of > useful information. > > Your reply BTW didn't answer my question. You just evaded the issue. > > For in as much as I understood what you wrote above, I get the impression that > you have simply reversed the definitions of gravitational and inertial mass, > and > without apparent cause as near as I can tell. I did not mean to give you that impression. Can your impression be undone? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 12:39:19 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBHKdBpq008473; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:39:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBHKd5Pt008418; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:39:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:39:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20061217203854.5EBFA8A1A6 xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 15:38:54 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred wrote: > It seems that there is a substantial difference between the Earth's > net negative charge (~ 500,000 C) and it's surface charge (`26,000 C). It seems to me that even though the earth's total negative charge at the surface might sound impressively large, the local field strength would be so weak as to be inconsequential. And there is one other factor as yet unaddressed. If you do your experiment indoors, you are, in effect, inside the negative electrode in a field-free region. Common building materials are noticeably conductive at the voltages we are talking about. Therefore, the surface of the negative electrode would be the exterior of the building and you would be inside the Faraday cage. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 13:42:34 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBHLgLb4013989; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:42:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBHLgJZi013973; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:42:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:42:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 08:42:12 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5cebo2pa40lqn37le58v77fkuupfgcbt1n 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 17 Dec 2006 21:42:12 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBHLgCvk013928 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sun, 17 Dec 2006 14:38:38 -0500: Hi, [snip] >> For in as much as I understood what you wrote above, I get the impression that >> you have simply reversed the definitions of gravitational and inertial mass, >> and >> without apparent cause as near as I can tell. > >I did not mean to give you that impression. > >Can your impression be undone? [snip] Of course it can...by a clear explanation on your part. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 16:40:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBI0duUF006272; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 16:39:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBI0doC7006134; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 16:39:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 16:39:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=C3Xq7DYBCnvXZE2dHX6k8MGJK42Y1xeA/gOkVEZML3wCnIIyn94RjI6APdLDMJlrnvEGegmCJzHxGygIQdf10SA+lCDs/f++ylocbBWDYLeUVBfIQ8pLqXfXvCdGjbLOQ3LGbTgzUw+SHfngWZ7hFSLJhfiKBIHZkSFgZVFDy48= ; Message-ID: <20061218003947.88025.qmail web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 16:39:47 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Green Beamer To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1350026969-1166402387=:86963" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1350026969-1166402387=:86963 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A"This ten-to-one ratio of comparative fuel usage is *actual and proven*= =0Abeyond any doubt in this vehicle over 100,000 miles...." that part is tr= ue, but it refers to fuel usage by weight of hydrogen, which is stored in t= he form of a cryogenic liquid in that engine.=0A=0A=0AOK -- nobody took the= bait. I wasn't exactly trolling or anything like that, but apparently the = average Vo doesn't realize that this is an even greater anomaly than the in= creased Carnot efficiency can accomodate.=0A=0AThe heat content of hydrogen= is:=0A61,000 Btu/lb (141.86 kJ/g) HHV or =0A51,500 Btu/lb (119.93 kJ/g= ) LLV=0A=0AEvery fuel can liberate a fixed amount of heat energy when it= reacts completely with oxygen. This energy content is measured experimenta= lly and is quantified by a fuel=A2s higher heating value (HHV) and lower he= ating value (LHV). =0A=0AThe difference between the HHV and the LHV include= s the heat of vaporization (irrelevant for H2) and other details involved i= n combustion with an eye to trying to equalize cross-comparisons between va= rious fuels.=0A=0AThe heat content of Gasoline, in contrast is:=0A20,360 Bt= u/lb (47.5 kJ/g) HHV=0A19,000 Btu/lb (44.5 kJ/g) LLV=0A=0ATherefore, let = me spell it out. Here is the anomaly - if it is not obvious yet (and if I h= ave not misread the recent announcement from BMW and my notes from a previo= us visit to watch the Ford Testing at CalStart). In actual testing of these= vehicles, using identical engines, automobiles and roads or testing tracks= , etc at both BMW and Ford, the hydrogen powered vehicle will go about 10 t= ime further per pound-equivalent of hydrogen fuel, compared to gasoline.=0A= =0AYet the heat content is only 2.5 times higher (up to triple, if you use = HHV). =0A=0AThe Carnot efficiency of the ICE has increased by over 40% ... = from 35% to 50 % yet... there is still a bit of a mystery.=0A=0A... only ab= out half of the decreased fuel usage is accounted for thus far. The rest? I= mentioned the increase in effective pressure due to the higher compressive= strength of steam, but that "should" be already accounted for in the Carno= t efficiency figure.=0A=0AI suspect at least one observer of this potential= anomaly will want to mention the hydrino, but don't forget that gasoline i= s composed of almost half hydrogen atoms, therefore - although that does no= t eliminate the hydrino as an potential part of the anomaly, it makes it le= ss likely.=0A=0AJones=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-1350026969-1166402387=:86963 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"This = ten-to-one ratio of comparative fuel usage is *actual and proven*=0Abeyond = any doubt in this vehicle over 100,000 miles...." that part is true, but it= refers to fuel usage by weight of hydrogen, which is stored in the form of= a cryogenic liquid in that engine.


OK -- nobody took the bait. = I wasn't exactly trolling or anything like that, but apparently the average= Vo doesn't realize that this is an even greater anomaly than the increased= Carnot efficiency can accomodate.

The heat content of hydrogen is:<= br>61,000 Btu/lb (141.86 kJ/g)    HHV  or
51,500 Bt= u/lb (119.93 kJ/g)    LLV

Every fuel can liberate a f= ixed amount of heat energy when it reacts completely with oxygen. This ener= gy content is measured experimentally and is quantified by a fuel=A2s highe= r heating value (HHV) and lower heating value (LHV).

The difference= between the HHV and the LHV includes the heat of vaporization (irrelevant = for H2) and other details involved in combustion with an eye to trying to equalize cross-comparisons between various fuels.

The heat content of Gasoline, in contrast is:
20,= 360 Btu/lb (47.5 kJ/g)  HHV
19,000 Btu/lb (44.5 kJ/g)  LLV
=
Therefore, let me spell it out. Here is the anomaly - if it is not obvi= ous yet (and if I have not misread the recent announcement from BMW and my = notes from a previous visit to watch the Ford Testing at CalStart). In actu= al testing of these vehicles, using identical engines, automobiles and road= s or testing tracks, etc at both BMW and Ford, the hydrogen powered vehicle= will go about 10 time further per pound-equivalent of hydrogen fuel, compa= red to gasoline.

Yet the heat content is only 2.5 times higher (up t= o triple, if you use HHV).

The Carnot efficiency of the ICE has inc= reased by over 40% ... from 35% to 50 % yet... there is still a bit of a my= stery.

... only about half of the decreased fuel usage is accounted = for thus far. The rest? I mentioned the increase in effective pressure due to the higher= compressive strength of steam, but that "should" be already accounted for = in the Carnot efficiency figure.

I suspect at least one observer of this potential anomaly will want to= mention the hydrino, but don't forget that gasoline is composed of almost = half hydrogen atoms, therefore - although that does not eliminate the hydri= no as an potential part of the anomaly, it makes it less likely.

Jon= es


--0-1350026969-1166402387=:86963-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 17:19:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBI1JcL2008185; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 17:19:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBI1JbEZ008173; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 17:19:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 17:19:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 01:18:52 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Diode Array 061217 Status: O X-Status: I emailed Ji-Ung Lee in 2004 about the diode array. He never answered. I just emailed him my latest narrative. I think that the diode array is a distinct device which will allow people to make better appliances. Society will be spared intellectual concept encumberance if many diode array using appliances are developed without patents. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 18:06:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBI26PTm014373; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:06:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBI26NWk014345; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:06:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:06:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:05:18 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7usbo21j17p26b0mh6uhbksaq1ht5tgqn9 4ax.com> References: <410-2200612212121328423 earthlink.net> <002e01c71f61$4523eea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7jn9o2ddatagb3h8jomdkhu34dfb48lamh@4ax.com> <06c001c721c2$e9395850$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <06c001c721c2$e9395850$3800a8c0 zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 18 Dec 2006 02:05:17 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBI25Hvs013950 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:05:29 +0100: Hi, [snip] >It's OK Robin, it happens to me all the time :) >Your other point is valid though, we don't know how long it takes the Sun to charge this capacitor. But it's unlikely it charges it in one two millionth of a day = 43 ms, which would be required for it to provide the world's daily energy consumption :/ > >Michel If the fair weather current is 1E-12 amps per square meter, then the total current for the entire planet is 510 A. Multiplying this by 300000 V gives a power of 153 MW - not much to run our civilization on. BTW the fair weather current would charge the Earth capacitor in 55.7 seconds. BTW2 if we were to drain this power for other uses, it would not be available for lightning, which is intimately involved with rainfall. The consequences for global rainfall could be catastrophic. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 18:19:23 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBI2JCRW026008; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:19:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBI2JAVS025996; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:19:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:19:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:19:02 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-2200612017112143814 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-2200612017112143814 earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 18 Dec 2006 02:19:02 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBI2J2dA025963 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Sun, 17 Dec 2006 04:21:43 -0700: Hi, [snip] >It seems that there is a substantial difference between the Earth's >net negative charge (~ 500,000 C) and it's surface charge (`26,000 C). > >http://www.nofc.forestry.ca/fire/faq_lightning_e.php#one > >"The Earth is electrically charged and acts as a spherical capacitor. The Earth has a net negative charge of about a million coulombs, while an equal and positive charge resides in the atmosphere." > >AND amongst others that are close. > >http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-10/972662284.Es.r.html > >"The solid Earth has a negative charge of about a half million coulombs. The atmosphere has a roughly equal and opposite charge, so that the Earth as a whole is roughly neutral. The charge difference produces a "fair weather electric field" in the lower atmosphere averaging about 6 volts per meter -- however, this field varies strongly with altitude, and is nearly 100 volts per meter at ground level. The total voltage difference between the ground charge and the atmosphere's charge (which exists roughly 30-50 km up) is about 300,000 volts. A simple calculation shows that the total energy stored in the fair weather electric field is 150 billion joules." The formula for the capacitance of concentric spheres is: 4*Pi*epsilon_0/((1/Re) + (1/(Re + d))) which works out to 0.095 F when Re is the radius of the Earth, and d = 48 km. Perhaps this is different when the spheres are not concentric thin shells? The charge is of course C*V. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 19:50:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBI3oIZ6032609; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 19:50:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBI3o9dd032555; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 19:50:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 19:50:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <003b01c72257$9b29de60$d3037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]: Firing Circuits Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 21:49:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01C72225.38507600"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C72225.38507600 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0038_01C72225.38507600" ------=_NextPart_001_0038_01C72225.38507600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, Been in discussion with some making suggestions for our next series of = experiments for water vortex studies. One suggestion was to use the = discharge of a high voltage Tesla coil and fire that voltage across = spiral wound springs ( 1/2" gap), one of iron and one of aluminum ( a = sparkplug if you may). The springs would be mounted inside a clear PVC = 4" pipe shrouding the water vortex and the spiral springs configured to = approach the shape of the water vortex upward flow. The idea would be to = increase the frequency of bursts to the resonant frequency of water. If = this would be possible it may supplant the need for an ultrasonic horn = configuration and transponder. Hmmm..=20 Electronic wizards??? can an electronic firing circuit be made that is = capable of this number of bursts? My ole model A spark coil, condensor = and points don't seem vigorous enough. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0038_01C72225.38507600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
Been in discussion with some making suggestions for our next series = of=20 experiments for water vortex studies. One suggestion was to use the = discharge of=20 a high voltage Tesla coil and fire that voltage across spiral wound = springs (=20 1/2" gap), one of iron and one of aluminum ( a sparkplug if you may). = The=20 springs would be mounted inside a clear PVC 4" pipe shrouding the water = vortex=20 and the spiral springs configured to approach the shape of the water = vortex=20 upward flow. The idea would be to increase the frequency of bursts = to the=20 resonant frequency of water. If this would be possible it may = supplant=20 the need for an ultrasonic horn configuration and transponder. Hmmm.. =
 
Electronic wizards??? can an electronic firing circuit be made that = is=20 capable of this number of bursts?  My ole model A spark coil, = condensor and=20 points don't seem vigorous enough.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0038_01C72225.38507600-- ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C72225.38507600 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003601c72257$82e344e0$d3037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C72225.38507600-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 00:26:16 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBI8QBtD010928; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 00:26:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBI8Q269010888; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 00:26:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 00:26:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=iw4PhpOxKguwG+ouu7KzEvR8/t/jULlFo+BbLLg2y40FJL4kPLG0qufAAMceVrNF; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061211882556160 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 01:25:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403614687dfd082de23412c87d2e8bd7df350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.203 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I think Dr. Moray's Coherer and other before-it's-time solid-state amplifier circuitry can be replaced with a husky Varactor Diode. The Antenna, Ground, and Load are still required. http://tpub.com/neets/book11/45k.htm "An increase in the charge Q or a decrease in the capacitance C causes an increase in the voltage across the plates. Thus, a voltage increase, or amplification, can be obtained by mechanically or electronically varying the amount of capacitance in the circuit. In practice a voltage-variable capacitance, such as a varactor, is used. The energy required to vary the capacitance is obtained from an electrical source called a PUMP." Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
I think Dr. Moray's Coherer and other before-it's-time
solid-state amplifier circuitry can be replaced with a
husky Varactor Diode.
The Antenna, Ground, and Load are still required.
 
 
"An increase in the charge Q or a decrease in the capacitance C causes an increase in the voltage across the plates. Thus, a voltage increase, or amplification, can be obtained by mechanically or electronically varying the amount of capacitance in the circuit. In practice a voltage-variable capacitance, such as a varactor, is used. The energy required to vary the capacitance is obtained from an electrical source called a PUMP."
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 01:07:57 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBI97pAp028186; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 01:07:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBI97o1M028164; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 01:07:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 01:07:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=RJrep7Y029ZS5l84qJ+ghPXtKdZgAA+Lz0Njc1fDKxerRkqy4DSGCmsyWzKW3raA; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006121189737123 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 02:07:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402cc77e09891ef1df5b877d7a4835ac3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.27 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII "The Road to The Transistor". Copper Oxide Rectifiers should behave as a Varactor in the MegHz range. http://www.jmargolin.com/history/trans.htm "The copper oxide rectifier was invented in 1927 by L.O. Grondahl and P.H. Geiger. Copper oxide rectifiers featured good conduction of forward current but poor reverse voltage rating, about 6 Volts. However, because they could be built on plates instead of with a point-contact, the larger surface area meant they could handle large currents (about 7 Amps) and were used for awhile in battery chargers. U.S. Patent 1,640,335 was issued August 23, 1927 to Grondahl. For some reason Geiger's name is not on the patent. (Thanks to Reader Dave for finding the patent and noting that Geiger's name is not on it.) That's a good question, why isn't Geiger's name on the patent since the reference for Geiger is: L.O. Grondahl, P.H. Geiger, "A New Electronic Rectifier", Proc. AIEE Winter Convention, p.357, NY 1927. [The American Institute for Electrical Engineers (AIEE) merged with the Institute of Radio Engineers (IRE) in 1963 to form the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE).] The patent is assigned to the Union Switch & Signal Company. George Westinghouse founded Union Switch & Signal in 1881, consolidating the assets of companies that had pioneered closed track circuits and interlockings. It operated as an independent company until 1917 when it became a subsidiary of Westinghouse Air Brake. It's still around as a wholly-owned subsidiary of Ansaldo Signal. http://www.switch.com/uss_history.html. The largest and longest use of copper oxide rectifiers was in multimeters so that a DC meter could be used to read AC voltages and currents. Simpson Electric Co. still uses copper oxide rectifiers in their non-electronic multimeters. [1] The ones they use have a small surface area to minimize the capacitance which results in a rectifier with high bandwidth extending to the video range." " On January 28, 1930, U.S. Patent 1,745,175 was issued to J.E. Lilienfeld for a "Method and Apparatus For Controlling Electric Currents." The patent shows an insulating material, such as glass, coated with a metal film having "unidirectional conductivity." There is no evidence that the device actually worked but it was a brilliant hunch. The material to actually build a transistor just didn't exist at that point. In 1939 William Shockley and Walter Brattain made an unsuccessful attempt to build a semiconductor amplifier by inserting a tiny controlling grid into a layer of copper oxide. The Second World War put an end to their experiments." I think Dr. Moray's Coherer and other before-it's-time solid-state amplifier circuitry can be replaced with a husky Varactor Diode. The Antenna, Ground, and Load are still required. http://tpub.com/neets/book11/45k.htm "An increase in the charge Q or a decrease in the capacitance C causes an increase in the voltage across the plates. Thus, a voltage increase, or amplification, can be obtained by mechanically or electronically varying the amount of capacitance in the circuit. In practice a voltage-variable capacitance, such as a varactor, is used. The energy required to vary the capacitance is obtained from an electrical source called a PUMP." Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
"The Road to The Transistor".
Copper Oxide Rectifiers should behave as a Varactor in the MegHz range.
 
 
"The copper oxide rectifier was invented in 1927 by L.O. Grondahl and P.H. Geiger. Copper oxide rectifiers featured good conduction of forward current but poor reverse voltage rating, about 6 Volts. However, because they could be built on plates instead of with a point-contact, the larger surface area meant they could handle large currents (about 7 Amps) and were used for awhile in battery chargers. U.S. Patent 1,640,335 was issued August 23, 1927 to Grondahl. For some reason Geiger's name is not on the patent. (Thanks to Reader Dave for finding the patent and noting that Geiger's name is not on it.) That's a good question, why isn't Geiger's name on the patent since the reference for Geiger is: L.O. Grondahl, P.H. Geiger, "A New Electronic Rectifier", Proc. AIEE Winter Convention, p.357, NY 1927. [The American Institute for Electrical Engineers (AIEE) merged with the Institute of Radio Engineers (IRE) in 1963 to form the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE).]  The patent is assigned to the Union Switch & Signal Company. George Westinghouse founded Union Switch & Signal in 1881, consolidating the assets of companies that had pioneered closed track circuits and interlockings. It operated as an independent company until 1917 when it became a subsidiary of Westinghouse Air Brake. It's still around as a wholly-owned subsidiary of Ansaldo Signal. http://www.switch.com/uss_history.html.
The largest and longest use of copper oxide rectifiers was in multimeters so that a DC meter could be used to read AC voltages and currents.  Simpson Electric Co. still uses copper oxide rectifiers in their non-electronic multimeters. [1]  The ones they use have a small surface area to minimize the capacitance which results in a rectifier with high bandwidth extending to the video range."
" On January 28, 1930, U.S. Patent 1,745,175 was issued to J.E. Lilienfeld for a "Method and Apparatus For Controlling Electric Currents." The patent shows an insulating material, such as glass, coated with a metal film having "unidirectional conductivity." There is no evidence that the device actually worked but it was a brilliant hunch. The material to actually build a  transistor just didn't exist at that point.
In 1939 William Shockley and Walter Brattain made an unsuccessful attempt to build a semiconductor amplifier by inserting a tiny controlling grid into a layer of copper oxide. The Second World War put an end to their experiments."
I think Dr. Moray's Coherer and other before-it's-time
solid-state amplifier circuitry can be replaced with a
husky Varactor Diode.
The Antenna, Ground, and Load are still required.
 
 
"An increase in the charge Q or a decrease in the capacitance C causes an increase in the voltage across the plates. Thus, a voltage increase, or amplification, can be obtained by mechanically or electronically varying the amount of capacitance in the circuit. In practice a voltage-variable capacitance, such as a varactor, is used. The energy required to vary the capacitance is obtained from an electrical source called a PUMP."
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 04:22:08 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBICLpgN029160; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 04:21:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBICLk7s029124; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 04:21:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 04:21:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=cvtRsoc7qTHyAtWeCfiJ3jW3Jn7XTMpXOcGliBd3W/O50SkDLxXS7IkKDWU5+kawLEk0mC213FMwmKXLgm4YQuBxnLXoTa4Kh8r/anntFZjJUzRzamydbFrViyBVVIKtQomX4v4mlENcxFKA6XluF+u+ALIjR8f3PECzGsS4+FY= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:21:42 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]: Firing Circuits In-Reply-To: <003b01c72257$9b29de60$d3037841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <003b01c72257$9b29de60$d3037841 xptower> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Howdy, Richard, We have a new magnetic motor under construction with Paul Sprain. The new electromagnet weighs almost fifty pounds. The whole assembly will probably be 1/4 ton when we finish. Although we have a high magnetic gradient in the spiral, we are finding that our maximum RPM is limited by the inductance of the electromagnet. The same will likely be the case with your experiment. >From Sparber's favorite site: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/indtra.html the current in the inductor reaches roughly 2/3rds it's maximum value at L/R seconds. The hard part is determining the value of L. This will tell you whether what you want to do is even possible. Terry On 12/17/06, RC Macaulay wrote: > > Howdy Vorts, > > Been in discussion with some making suggestions for our next series of > experiments for water vortex studies. One suggestion was to use the > discharge of a high voltage Tesla coil and fire that voltage across spiral > wound springs ( 1/2" gap), one of iron and one of aluminum ( a sparkplug if > you may). The springs would be mounted inside a clear PVC 4" pipe shrouding > the water vortex and the spiral springs configured to approach the shape of > the water vortex upward flow. The idea would be to increase the frequency of > bursts to the resonant frequency of water. If this would be possible it may > supplant the need for an ultrasonic horn configuration and transponder. > Hmmm.. > > Electronic wizards??? can an electronic firing circuit be made that is > capable of this number of bursts? My ole model A spark coil, condensor and > points don't seem vigorous enough. > > Richard > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 04:52:55 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBICqfJ8015141; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 04:52:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBICqeCv015121; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 04:52:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 04:52:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ptzM+YIJblW/BS5n2KJ4yxw9XEEo//UtPY90kZieZYVRB3acNrnDuRjYsy2UkurT; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061211812523288 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]: Firing Circuits Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 05:52:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b1fd986356f9db71d02e2ca59ccc8192350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.225 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote, > > Howdy, Richard, > > We have a new magnetic motor under construction with Paul Sprain. The > new electromagnet weighs almost fifty pounds. The whole assembly will > probably be 1/4 ton when we finish. > > Although we have a high magnetic gradient in the spiral, we are > finding that our maximum RPM is limited by the inductance of the > electromagnet. The same will likely be the case with your experiment. > > From Sparber's favorite site: > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/indtra.html > > the current in the inductor reaches roughly 2/3rds it's maximum value > at L/R seconds. The hard part is determining the value of L. This > will tell you whether what you want to do is even possible. > Easy to figure L, Terry, go 2 L and divide by 2. :-) Fred > Terry > > On 12/17/06, RC Macaulay wrote: > > > > Howdy Vorts, > > > > Been in discussion with some making suggestions for our next series of > > experiments for water vortex studies. One suggestion was to use the > > discharge of a high voltage Tesla coil and fire that voltage across spiral > > wound springs ( 1/2" gap), one of iron and one of aluminum ( a sparkplug if > > you may). The springs would be mounted inside a clear PVC 4" pipe shrouding > > the water vortex and the spiral springs configured to approach the shape of > > the water vortex upward flow. The idea would be to increase the frequency of > > bursts to the resonant frequency of water. If this would be possible it may > > supplant the need for an ultrasonic horn configuration and transponder. > > Hmmm.. > > > > Electronic wizards??? can an electronic firing circuit be made that is > > capable of this number of bursts? My ole model A spark coil, condensor and > > points don't seem vigorous enough. > > > > Richard > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 05:56:39 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBIDuUHQ017748; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 05:56:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBIDuNqk017706; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 05:56:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 05:56:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=a6jjnCUSbn1nMdxvQ5S9Cf+WY7RjaSKnBVIPa1LQg8jDp5vRuk+Myu8zVhW0YRQeTlt5Wim4pct9Dg4UHWWSzjA9hSzBYIa3+/S+O9MtG5qKnuVbgEszDCLHiWD04ZjQ1Hxbc2V+uNSBNekWXyE05sde5YnUMwIkx78OJFCyQnU= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 08:56:21 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]: Firing Circuits In-Reply-To: <410-220061211812523288 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-220061211812523288 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/18/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Easy to figure L, Terry, go 2 L and divide by 2. :-) Just don't let Cerberus bite you in both cheeks with a third head to change the tone of your voice. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 07:04:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBIF4IT9020901; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:04:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBIF4FHp020867; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:04:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:04:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001001c722b5$c10cb950$61037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Firing Circuits Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:03:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C72283.6F8BC6C0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C72283.6F8BC6C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C72283.6F8D4D60" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C72283.6F8D4D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Terry, The theme for using a "spark plug" firing at frequency speeds = approaching the resonant frequency of water is to an attempt to combine = two functions. One is to apply an electric current path surrounding the = water vortex and also interrupt the current path so as to replicate a = ultrasonic transducer and frequency generator.. a model A spark coil = and a boom box effect with adjustable frequency. Hopefully achieve an = electronic " tuning fork" that causes a resonance in the vortex.. hmmm! = Add to that little tidbit ... a series of Neodym magnets in a spiral = array fixed in a section of pipe ahead or behind the pipe section = housing the spiral spring electrodes and we may generate some O3 or O = isotopes.. Not to worry, we have an ole man lives in Dime Box Texas that drinks a = gallon of "peach squeezing" every day and he can hear the steam = locomotive whistle a mile away even though the train hasn't run in a = hundred years. Now that is resonance. Off track. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C72283.6F8D4D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Terry,
 
The theme for using a "spark plug" firing at frequency speeds = approaching=20 the resonant frequency of water is to an attempt to combine two = functions. One=20 is to apply an electric current path surrounding the water vortex and = also=20 interrupt the current path so as to replicate a ultrasonic transducer = and=20 frequency generator..   a model A spark coil and a boom box = effect=20 with adjustable frequency. Hopefully achieve an electronic " tuning = fork" that=20 causes a resonance in the vortex.. hmmm! Add to that little tidbit = ... a=20 series of Neodym magnets in a spiral array fixed in a section of pipe = ahead or=20 behind the pipe section housing the spiral spring electrodes and we may = generate=20 some O3 or O isotopes..
 
 
 Not to worry, we have an ole man lives in Dime Box Texas that = drinks=20 a gallon of "peach squeezing" every day and he can hear the steam = locomotive=20 whistle a mile away even though the train hasn't run in a hundred years. = Now=20 that is resonance. Off track.
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C72283.6F8D4D60-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C72283.6F8BC6C0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c722b5$b9f0a7d0$61037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C72283.6F8BC6C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 12:36:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBIKaWGx010314; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:36:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBIKaM6T010194; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:36:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:36:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Green Beamer Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 07:36:08 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20061218003947.88025.qmail web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20061218003947.88025.qmail web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 18 Dec 2006 20:36:07 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBIKaG14010159 Resent-Message-ID: <-qZ8CC.A.OfC.GvvhFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 17 Dec 2006 16:39:47 -0800 (PST): Hi Jones, [snip] >The Carnot efficiency of the ICE has increased by over 40% ... from 35% to 50 % yet... there is still a bit of a mystery. > >... only about half of the decreased fuel usage is accounted for thus far. The rest? I mentioned the increase in effective pressure due to the higher compressive strength of steam, but that "should" be already accounted for in the Carnot efficiency figure. > >I suspect at least one observer of this potential anomaly will want to mention the hydrino, but don't forget that gasoline is composed of almost half hydrogen atoms, therefore - although that does not eliminate the hydrino as an potential part of the anomaly, it makes it less likely. [snip] Let's see, who could that be? :) Actually I suspect the remaining difference may, at least in part, lie in the possibility of more complete combustion for the H2 than for the gasoline. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 12:42:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBIKgBSF013629; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:42:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBIKg7To013594; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:42:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:42:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Firing Circuits Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 07:41:56 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001001c722b5$c10cb950$61037841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <001001c722b5$c10cb950$61037841 xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 18 Dec 2006 20:41:55 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBIKfxnk013510 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:03:50 -0600: Hi Richard, [snip] >BlankHowdy Terry, > >The theme for using a "spark plug" firing at frequency speeds approaching the resonant frequency of water is to an attempt to combine two functions. One is to apply an electric current path surrounding the water vortex and also interrupt the current path so as to replicate a ultrasonic transducer and frequency generator.. a model A spark coil and a boom box effect with adjustable frequency. Hopefully achieve an electronic " tuning fork" that causes a resonance in the vortex.. hmmm! Add to that little tidbit ... a series of Neodym magnets in a spiral array fixed in a section of pipe ahead or behind the pipe section housing the spiral spring electrodes and we may generate some O3 or O isotopes.. [snip] You may not need such a heavy duty spark generator. Instead of trying to generate sparks at the requisite frequency, whatever you think it is, why not just adjust the resonance of the tank circuit to match it instead? IOW, let each spark generate lots of high frequency oscillations? Just as in old spark gap radio transmitters. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 11:11:43 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBHJBXwq026185; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:11:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBHJBNCn025783; Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:11:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:11:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=PHXmsn/0xzzRoFqSv29Gi0lUl46MU6NqfMKIJYPVO9ujtOdR2fcsK9MKSz2E/rfjs54uBuHYXG4d8iSCJXPxemnsiG3r7ivvrSs9pixVtupKkM1py4dZfxFTtVGFzVbWTcg2gf1Ph3ggQ2LOkMEvYPKmjbASU8CewmEsIhJ0Wf4= ; X-YMail-OSG: 48ss6RMVM1lpc_d2Q2xLPVE64U1KQ0OtPxmiySN1BhVcIflaIVGu28eGdJ4i5OtUhwTYQCp9VD7CZsDyuLCXc3_hD9bIBYOBLYCBD89YfbXBZOJns4wf9h_titNpHlgEM46_8EnQ.Xykedc- Message-ID: <01f001c7220f$23444900$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 14:11:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01ED_01C721E5.39F71530" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01ED_01C721E5.39F71530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Energy Blog - powered by FeedBurner ----- Original Message -----=20 From: The Energy Blog=20 To: crquin rogers.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:33 AM Subject: The Energy Blog The Energy Blog=20 a.. Toyota to Pursue Diesel Hybrid=20 Posted: 12 Dec 2006 01:13 AM CST An article in Edmunds reports that following Toyota's announcement = that it will buy a 5.9 percent stake in Isuzu, the companies announced = that they will pursue a joint diesel development strategy. In the = Toyota/Isuzu partnership, Isuzu will take the lead in the areas of = research and development for... [[ This is a content summary only. Visit my website for full links, = other content, and more! ]]=20 =20 b.. Why a Hydrogen Economy Doesn't Make Sense=20 Posted: 12 Dec 2006 12:49 AM CST Another study, reported in PhysOrg.com reaffirms The Energy Blog's = belief that the hydrogen economy is not energy efficient. In a recent = study, fuel cell expert Ulf Bossel explains that a hydrogen economy is a = wasteful economy. The large amount of energy required to isolate = hydrogen from natural... [[ This is a content summary only. Visit my website for full links, = other content, and more! ]]=20 =20 c.. Safer, Sustainable Energy Investigated=20 Posted: 12 Dec 2006 12:32 AM CST PhysOrg.com reports that In the future a new generation of nuclear = reactors will create energy, while producing virtually no long-lasting = nuclear waste, according to research conducted by Wilfred van Rooijen, = who will receive his Delft University of Technology (Netherlands) PhD = degree based on this... [[ This is a content summary only. Visit my website for full links, = other content, and more! ]]=20 =20 d.. Fuel Cell Industry Growing, but Still Relatively Small=20 Posted: 12 Dec 2006 12:14 AM CST According to the 2006 Fuel Cell Industry Survey by = PriceWaterhouseCoopers, for the publicly traded companies in the global = fuel cell sector:=E2=97=8F Revenues were up 20% to $266 million in = 2005=E2=97=8F There was a 6% decrease in RD expenditures to $206 million = =E2=97=8F Continuing a trend started in 2003, revenues... [[ This is a content summary only. Visit my website for full links, = other content, and more! ]]=20 =20 e.. PHEVs Have Little Impact on Electric Power System=20 Posted: 11 Dec 2006 05:12 PM CST DOE's Pacific Northwest National Laboratory released a report today, = that indicates that idle capacity in the existing electric power system = could generate most of the electricity consumed by plug-in hybrid = electric vehicles. A new study for the Department of Energy finds that = off-peak electricity... [[ This is a content summary only. Visit my website for full links, = other content, and more! ]]=20 =20 f.. German Biogas Project Recycles Wastewater to Grow Corn=20 Posted: 11 Dec 2006 04:25 PM CST Biopact reports on the construction of a =E2=82=AC10 million (US$13 = million) biogas complex in Germany that includes a dedicated field of = corn watered by wastewater, a pipeline and a combined heat-and-power = plant. Corn will be raised on a dedicated plot of 10 square kilometers = (2471 acres). The entire... [[ This is a content summary only. Visit my website for full links, = other content, and more! ]]=20 =20 Email Delivery powered by FeedBurner You are subscribed to email updates from The Energy Blog=20 To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe now. If you prefer to unsubscribe via postal mail, write to: The Energy Blog, = c/o FeedBurner, 549 W Randolph, Chicago IL USA 60661 ------=_NextPart_000_01ED_01C721E5.39F71530 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF The Energy = Blog - powered by FeedBurner
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: The=20 Energy Blog
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:33 AM
Subject: The Energy Blog

The Energy Blog =

  • Toyota=20 to Pursue Diesel Hybrid

    Posted:=20 12 Dec 2006 01:13 AM CST

    An article in Edmunds reports that following = Toyota's=20 announcement that it will buy a 5.9 percent stake in Isuzu, the = companies=20 announced that they will pursue a joint diesel development strategy. = In the=20 Toyota/Isuzu partnership, Isuzu will take the lead in the areas of = research=20 and development for...

    [[ This is a content summary only. Visit = my=20 website for full links, other content, and more! ]]=20

  • Why=20 a Hydrogen Economy Doesn't Make Sense

    Posted:=20 12 Dec 2006 12:49 AM CST

    Another study, reported in PhysOrg.com = reaffirms The=20 Energy Blog's belief that the hydrogen economy is not energy = efficient. In a=20 recent study, fuel cell expert Ulf Bossel explains that a hydrogen = economy is=20 a wasteful economy. The large amount of energy required to isolate = hydrogen=20 from natural...

    [[ This is a content summary only. Visit my = website for=20 full links, other content, and more! ]]=20

  • Safer,=20 Sustainable Energy Investigated

    Posted:=20 12 Dec 2006 12:32 AM CST

    PhysOrg.com reports that In the future a new = generation=20 of nuclear reactors will create energy, while producing virtually no=20 long-lasting nuclear waste, according to research conducted by Wilfred = van=20 Rooijen, who will receive his Delft University of Technology = (Netherlands) PhD=20 degree based on this...

    [[ This is a content summary only. = Visit my=20 website for full links, other content, and more! ]]=20

  • Fuel=20 Cell Industry Growing, but Still Relatively Small

    Posted:=20 12 Dec 2006 12:14 AM CST

    According to the 2006 Fuel Cell Industry = Survey by=20 PriceWaterhouseCoopers, for the publicly traded companies in the = global fuel=20 cell sector:=E2=97=8F Revenues were up 20% to $266 million in = 2005=E2=97=8F There was a 6%=20 decrease in RD expenditures to $206 million =E2=97=8F Continuing a = trend started in=20 2003, revenues...

    [[ This is a content summary only. Visit my = website=20 for full links, other content, and more! ]]=20

  • PHEVs=20 Have Little Impact on Electric Power System

    Posted:=20 11 Dec 2006 05:12 PM CST

    DOE's Pacific Northwest National Laboratory = released a=20 report today, that indicates that idle capacity in the existing = electric power=20 system could generate most of the electricity consumed by plug-in = hybrid=20 electric vehicles. A new study for the Department of Energy finds that = off-peak electricity...

    [[ This is a content summary only. = Visit my=20 website for full links, other content, and more! ]]=20

  • German=20 Biogas Project Recycles Wastewater to Grow Corn

    Posted:=20 11 Dec 2006 04:25 PM CST

    Biopact reports on the construction of a = =E2=82=AC10 million=20 (US$13 million) biogas complex in Germany that includes a dedicated = field of=20 corn watered by wastewater, a pipeline and a combined heat-and-power = plant.=20 Corn will be raised on a dedicated plot of 10 square kilometers (2471 = acres).=20 The entire...

    [[ This is a content summary only. Visit my = website for=20 full links, other content, and more! ]]=20

Email=20 Delivery powered by FeedBurner

You=20 are subscribed to email updates from The Energy Blog =
To=20 stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe=20 now.

If=20 you prefer to unsubscribe via postal mail, write to: The Energy Blog, = c/o=20 FeedBurner, 549 W Randolph, Chicago IL USA = 60661

------=_NextPart_000_01ED_01C721E5.39F71530-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 18:17:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBJ2HnPq026180; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:17:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBJ2Hapf026125; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:17:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:17:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <004d01c72313$d6375610$35027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Firing Circuits Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 20:17:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0049_01C722E1.8B11BD10"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C722E1.8B11BD10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_004A_01C722E1.8B11BD10" ------=_NextPart_001_004A_01C722E1.8B11BD10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankRobin wrote.. You may not need such a heavy duty spark generator. Instead of trying to generate sparks at the requisite frequency, whatever you think it is, = why not just adjust the resonance of the tank circuit to match it instead? IOW, = let each spark generate lots of high frequency oscillations? Just as in old spark = gap radio transmitters. Howdy Robin, Thanks for the thought. Please expand on it. You have a picture in your = mind I am not seeing clearly but it is a very important idea that I = must consider. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_004A_01C722E1.8B11BD10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Robin wrote..
 
You may not need such a heavy duty spark generator. Instead of = trying=20 to
generate sparks at the requisite frequency, whatever you think it = is, why=20 not
just adjust the resonance of the tank circuit to match it = instead? IOW,=20 let each
spark generate lots of high frequency oscillations? Just as = in old=20 spark gap
radio transmitters.
 
 
Howdy Robin,
 
Thanks for the thought. Please expand on it. You have a picture in = your=20 mind I am not seeing clearly but it is a  very important idea that = I must=20 consider.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_004A_01C722E1.8B11BD10-- ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C722E1.8B11BD10 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <004801c72313$d5aaa670$35027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C722E1.8B11BD10-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 19:03:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBJ33l13002181; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:03:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBJ33kCu002164; Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:03:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:03:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Firing Circuits Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:03:31 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <004d01c72313$d6375610$35027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <004d01c72313$d6375610$35027841 xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 19 Dec 2006 03:03:30 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBJ33V3H002074 Resent-Message-ID: <3JKCYD.A.rh.Ra1hFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Mon, 18 Dec 2006 20:17:29 -0600: Hi Richard, [snip] >BlankRobin wrote.. > >You may not need such a heavy duty spark generator. Instead of trying to >generate sparks at the requisite frequency, whatever you think it is, why not >just adjust the resonance of the tank circuit to match it instead? IOW, let each >spark generate lots of high frequency oscillations? Just as in old spark gap >radio transmitters. > > >Howdy Robin, > >Thanks for the thought. Please expand on it. You have a picture in your mind I am not seeing clearly but it is a very important idea that I must consider. > >Richard > When a spark gap is incorporated in an LC tank circuit, and the capacitor is fed with DC current, it charges up until the voltage reaches the point at which the spark gap breaks down and a plasma forms. Once this happens, the plasma acts as a short, and completes the connection between L and C, thereby allowing an oscillating current to flow back and forth at a frequency determined by the values chosen for L and C. This continues until the energy stored in the cap. is finally lost in the resistance of the circuit, or in old radio transmitters, transmitted via the antenna. The frequency can be anything up to high radio frequencies, and can be changed by making either or both of L and C variable. Since you plan on using a fixed coil inside the tank, I would suggest a variable capacitor external to the tank. Then you can use the variable cap to search for useful "resonant frequencies" - if there are any. You could also include a switchable bank of capacitors with your variable cap to increase the range of frequencies that you can traverse. With this sort of setup, you only need to generate a spark often enough to compensate for the energy lost in the circuit resistance, rather than at the top frequency you want to test. That puts a much lower strain on your spark generator, so that a simpler, cheaper unit can be used. Each spark then results in a damped oscillation across the spark gap. If you monitor the oscillation on a scope, you can also play with the timing between sparks by varying the power feed, not to mention keeping an eye out for anomalous wave forms which could hint at special properties of the water. (A real time Fourier analyzer might come in handy too). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 03:43:39 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBJBhXcf001355; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 03:43:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBJBhJmv001224; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 03:43:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 03:43:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Ani9Ql+QEsiB4cytg2GgfGa/OcrkKJaQ/h1xdXRIGbTfDD9Z9WqZ4evxFeXwrcUW; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612219114314305 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 04:43:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403fea930bb24e3d14d445fc2ffd87386b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.228 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Apparently Dr. Moray's antenna is picking up the ~3.0 MegaHz gravitational signal from the time-dilated Phase Velocity of the fundamental particles-quarks of the earth and converting this gravitational field (potential energy) into electrical energy. IOW, the Compton Wavelength 3.0 * h/mc of a quark-loop in the proton of 612 MeV (~5.5E-28 Kg) has a wavelength of 4.0E-15 meters but it is time-dilated by a factor of 3.40E18 which stretches the wavelength in our reference frame to 4.0E-15 * 3.40E18 = 1.36E4 meters, but, the phase velocity reduces this to 1.36E4/137 or about 100 meters or a frequency of 3.0 MegaHz. Using this approach for the electron yields a frequency of about 8.0 Hz which is close to Schumann earth-ionosphere resonance frequency. In 2001 several experiments were performed with 3.0 MHz feeding a loop in an attempt to see an antigravity force, but, with null results. A Varactor with some fine tuning off a long-wire antenna and a good earth ground should pick up the 3 MHz signal. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Apparently Dr. Moray's antenna is picking up the ~3.0 MegaHz
gravitational signal from the time-dilated Phase Velocity
of the fundamental particles-quarks of the earth and converting
this gravitational field (potential energy) into electrical energy.
 
IOW, the Compton Wavelength 3.0 * h/mc of a quark-loop in the
proton of 612 MeV (~5.5E-28 Kg) has a wavelength of 4.0E-15 meters
but it is time-dilated by a factor of 3.40E18 which stretches
the wavelength in our reference frame to 4.0E-15 * 3.40E18 = 1.36E4
meters, but, the phase velocity reduces this to 1.36E4/137 or about
100 meters or a frequency of 3.0 MegaHz.
 
Using this approach for the electron yields a frequency of about 8.0 Hz
which is close to Schumann earth-ionosphere resonance frequency.
 
In 2001 several experiments were performed with 3.0 MHz feeding
a loop in an attempt to see an antigravity force, but, with null results.
 
A Varactor with some fine tuning off a long-wire antenna and
a good earth ground should pick up the 3 MHz signal.
 
Fred
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 08:21:05 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBJGKmGZ030108; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 08:20:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBJGKcSU030021; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 08:20:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 08:20:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type; b=ZSr7vvO0Y1QA65+VslQGWUOV1LrXTfKEXsYf9xJtIQttwIt5Bc+0zxOzGfDY1YM4MK8yIDMtJA2Ls7oigzDJ/eoO8bNJxhDM+K1vc7hQAQGmKPApOGWh9orElh3IH4Z+vk+7b6fyOsZAwMrOOKmwYvpBuH4JklKIVhoU8kCaM/U= ; X-YMail-OSG: x7.gnToVM1nn783e7ew4Etz37ckMVAOFwDLq2zE8qmzajGU9v8emQmeSXivqHGjE4CieGBW0orferi1ulrPI0bZ6GNHLmg5YtLljGjDcnmp0IPy2towuHw-- Message-ID: <4588114F.9000902 pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 08:20:31 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (Windows/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030203080900060100050707" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030203080900060100050707 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A "Hall of Mirrors" Universe ? From the "believe it or not" department... and adding new meaning to the "World Cup" of soccer (as we Yanks like to call that hands-free, 12-sided-ball game). There is nothing scientific nor which has been proved to date, in all of cosmology and physics, to show that the Universe is extremely (or infinitely) large, nor even that it is a set old-age (13-15 billion years) nor even that it is expanding at all ! Nothing, zero, nada, nil! All we have for proof, as 2006 ends, is based on logical (human logic) inference (if not sound-and-fury from self-appointed experts) All of the above physical properties of the universe, including so-called "red-shift" are conjectures based on the premise (very understandable human logic) that what we see when we look into the vast reaches of space with a telescope (or from Hubble images) is the single *object itself.* Don't "duh" that part. It does seem logical at first to us humanoids, to assume this as a 'given', but in fact, it probably is NOT true... and most of what we see in telescopes is probably not the single object itself ! For instance, when we see a galaxy far removed and supposedly very old... instead of that being all there is to the story, what we see in that one instance may be but a *reflection* (one of many) of far fewer objects, each of which reflection is repeated many times throughout space, all showing differing red-shits and perspective of the same object, and varying according to the relative placement of the "virtual" mirror - which is gravitational curvature (and a 12-sided gravitational curvature "to boot"). Specifically, the very same object can be repeatedly seen, out in space, twelve times or much more but it is still a single entity. At least that is an emerging viewpoint (going back decades). This "alien" understanding (supra-human perspective) is gathering support - and more recently and has been bolstered by new analysis of CMB: http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/18/9/3 IOW when we look out and see a galaxy whose red-shift indicates that it is 10 billion light years removed - and in only one part of space ... well, that could be both true and false. In fact the same object may appear in twelve or twelve thousand different disguises, and one or more of those views may be blue-shifted ! This should not be misread to give solace to the anti-science spiel of so-called biblical creationism, as any object seen will still end up being very old (billions of years), not young (in the few thousand year range which right-wing zealots have try to portray as biblical, when instead such ancient text is merely allegorical). In fact the universe in this understanding need NOT be expanding at all - since our large "local group" of galaxies which is equivalent to thousands of Milky-Ways, is blue-shifted to us, and this local group may well be "all there is" except for secondary reflections - at least in this alien understanding of reality... ...and what is more - the idea of a single "big-bang" will be totally nullified. The universe will be smaller, older, static or nearly static (pulsating) and not infinite in size ! and most surprising - without an exact starting point like a single big bang. The Poincaré dodecahedral space mentioned in the article can be described as the interior of a 'sphere' made from 12 slightly curved pentagons. "However, there is one big difference between this shape and a football [soccer ball] because when one goes out from a pentagonal face, one immediately comes back inside the ball from the opposite face after a 36 degree rotation." "Such a multiply connected space can therefore generate multiple images of the same object, such as a planet or a photon. Other such well-proportioned, spherical spaces that fit the WMAP data are the tetrahedron and the octahedron." I find this emerging viewpoint of reality, as alien as it first may seem, to be very satisfying intellectually, after one becomes accustomed to the implications. Do others share that appreciation - or is the level of proof for this just too tenuous? Jones --------------030203080900060100050707 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A "Hall of Mirrors" Universe ?

>From the "believe it or not" department... and adding new meaning to the "World Cup" of soccer (as we Yanks like to call that hands-free, 12-sided-ball game).

There is nothing scientific nor which has been proved to date, in all of cosmology and physics, to show that the Universe is extremely (or infinitely) large, nor even that it is a set old-age (13-15 billion years) nor even that it is expanding at all ! Nothing, zero, nada, nil! All we have for proof, as 2006 ends, is based on logical (human logic) inference (if not sound-and-fury from self-appointed experts)

All of the above physical properties of the universe, including so-called "red-shift" are conjectures based on the premise (very understandable human logic) that what we see when we look into the vast reaches of space with a telescope (or from Hubble images) is the single *object itself.*

Don't "duh" that part. It does seem logical at first to us humanoids, to assume this as a 'given', but in fact, it probably is NOT true... and most of what we see in telescopes is probably not the single object itself !

For instance, when we see a galaxy far removed and supposedly very old... instead of that being all there is to the story, what we see in that one instance may be but a *reflection* (one of many) of far fewer objects, each of which reflection is repeated many times throughout space, all showing differing red-shits and perspective of the same object, and varying according to the relative placement of the "virtual" mirror - which is gravitational curvature (and a 12-sided gravitational curvature "to boot").

Specifically, the very same object can be repeatedly seen, out in space, twelve times or much more but it is still a single entity.
 
At least that is an emerging viewpoint (going back decades). This "alien" understanding (supra-human perspective) is gathering support - and more recently and has been bolstered by new analysis of CMB:
http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/18/9/3

IOW when we look out and see a galaxy whose red-shift indicates that it is 10 billion light years removed - and in only one part of space ... well, that could be both true and false.

In fact the same object may appear in twelve or twelve thousand different disguises, and one or more of those views may be blue-shifted !

This should not be misread to give solace to the anti-science spiel of so-called biblical creationism, as any object seen will still end up being very old (billions of years), not young (in the few thousand year range which right-wing zealots have try to portray as biblical, when instead such ancient text is merely allegorical).

In fact the universe in this understanding need NOT be expanding at all - since our large "local group" of galaxies which is equivalent to thousands of Milky-Ways, is blue-shifted to us, and this local group may well be "all there is" except for secondary reflections - at least in this alien understanding of reality...

...and what is more - the idea of a single "big-bang" will be totally nullified. The universe will be smaller, older, static or nearly static (pulsating) and not infinite in size ! and most surprising - without an exact starting point like a single big bang.

The Poincaré dodecahedral space mentioned in the article can be described as the interior of a 'sphere' made from 12 slightly curved pentagons. "However, there is one big difference between this shape and a football [soccer ball] because when one goes out from a pentagonal face, one immediately comes back inside the ball from the opposite face after a 36 degree rotation."

"Such a multiply connected space can therefore generate multiple images of the same object, such as a planet or a photon. Other such well-proportioned, spherical spaces that fit the WMAP data are the tetrahedron and the octahedron."

I find this emerging viewpoint of reality, as alien as it first may seem, to be very satisfying intellectually, after one becomes accustomed to the implications. Do others share that appreciation - or is the level of proof for this just too tenuous?

Jones
 --------------030203080900060100050707-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 08:39:41 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBJGdRQY017055; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 08:39:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBJGdPau017025; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 08:39:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 08:39:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:45:44 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Green Beamer maybe Davis Mechanics at work In-reply-to: <20061218003947.88025.qmail web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Jones Beene Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200612191145.44241.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-disposition: inline References: <20061218003947.88025.qmail web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBJGdJRB016959 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 17 December 2006 19:39, Jones Beene wrote: > "This ten-to-one ratio of comparative fuel usage is *actual and proven* > beyond any doubt in this vehicle over 100,000 miles...." that part is true, > but it refers to fuel usage by weight of hydrogen, which is stored in the > form of a cryogenic liquid in that engine. > > > OK -- nobody took the bait. I wasn't exactly trolling or anything like > that, but apparently the average Vo doesn't realize that this is an even > greater anomaly than the increased Carnot efficiency can accomodate. > > The heat content of hydrogen is: > 61,000 Btu/lb (141.86 kJ/g) HHV or > 51,500 Btu/lb (119.93 kJ/g) LLV > > Every fuel can liberate a fixed amount of heat energy when it reacts > completely with oxygen. This energy content is measured experimentally and > is quantified by a fuel¢s higher heating value (HHV) and lower heating > value (LHV). > > The difference between the HHV and the LHV includes the heat of > vaporization (irrelevant for H2) and other details involved in combustion > with an eye to trying to equalize cross-comparisons between various fuels. > > The heat content of Gasoline, in contrast is: > 20,360 Btu/lb (47.5 kJ/g) HHV > 19,000 Btu/lb (44.5 kJ/g) LLV > > Therefore, let me spell it out. Here is the anomaly - if it is not obvious > yet (and if I have not misread the recent announcement from BMW and my > notes from a previous visit to watch the Ford Testing at CalStart). In > actual testing of these vehicles, using identical engines, automobiles and > roads or testing tracks, etc at both BMW and Ford, the hydrogen powered > vehicle will go about 10 time further per pound-equivalent of hydrogen > fuel, compared to gasoline. > > Yet the heat content is only 2.5 times higher (up to triple, if you use > HHV). > > The Carnot efficiency of the ICE has increased by over 40% ... from 35% to > 50 % yet... there is still a bit of a mystery. > > ... only about half of the decreased fuel usage is accounted for thus far. > The rest? I mentioned the increase in effective pressure due to the higher > compressive strength of steam, but that "should" be already accounted for > in the Carnot efficiency figure. > > I suspect at least one observer of this potential anomaly will want to > mention the hydrino, but don't forget that gasoline is composed of almost > half hydrogen atoms, therefore - although that does not eliminate the > hydrino as an potential part of the anomaly, it makes it less likely. > > Jones Jones, Maybe a little of a 'Davis Mechanics" effect going on here. You mentioned higher temperatures and pressures. Possibly higher accelerations of the engine parts as well. Incumbant with higher accelerations would probably also be higher rates of onset of accelerations. This leads to higher energy transfers on impact....spark detonation....and greater output. Physics has always been fuzzy about impact loads, and CE's are taught to use a fudge factor of 3 when impact loading is a factor. Fudge factors have always bothered me, and when I read an article in an old 'Science Digest' back in the early seventies about a fellow that had an 'antigravity suitcase' that made use of this principle, I got a glimpse possibly of the hint of an answer to questions like: how do straws go through utility poles in windstorms of great velocity, etc. A then professor Davis at a Florida university who died ....shortly....after publishing a theory on this brought out the idea that a second derivative term added to the standard equation for force may be showing itself. I have thought about this, and further postulate that not only a second derivitave term, but a Taylor series of them may be really at work: F = m {a + a' +a'' +a'''.....[(d^n)a]/(dt^n)] There is a solution to this Taylor in most elementary Calculus books. I just did not memorize it thirty years ago when I took the course. Reportedly the garage tinkerer's anti-grav suitcase was about two percent efficient or so in reducing the grav force on it. He tested it on a bathroom scale where ever he took the case. He would not relinquish the case or tell how he built it, as he wanted a million dollars for this info. Most thought him a quack and were dismissive of him except for that professor in Florida. Like professor Davis, he too took his secret to the grave with him under equally mysterious circumstances. All known and unclassified attempts to duplicate this suitcase were failures; at least that is what the magazine article reported. Then in the nineties comes a Dr Bull and his super cannon, and this chap claims kinship with this principle. And if that were'nt enough, the US Army calls the main gun on the Abrams Tank a 'Davis Gun'. I am certain that they have a cover story for this that will sound perfectly 'logical'. And they said 'Scotland was English at the point of a sword!'. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 08:48:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBJGlgrU028850; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 08:47:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBJGlef8028805; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 08:47:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 08:47:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061219114144.0422e888 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:45:17 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: The Marching Song of the Skeptics Status: RO X-Status: Here are views of Robert Park expressed by Groucho Marx in "Horse Feathers" (1932) -- I don't know what they have to say, It makes no difference anyway -- Whatever it is, I'm against it! No matter what it is or who commenced it, I'm against it. Your proposition may be good But let's have one thing understood -- Whatever it is, I'm against it! And even when you've changed it or condensed it, I'm against it. I'm opposed to it -- On general principles I'm opposed to it! Chorus: He's opposed to it! In fact, in word, in deed, He's opposed to it! For months before my son was born, I used to yell from night till morn, Whatever it is, I'm against it! And I've kept yelling since I commenced it, I'm against it! (Sound file here: http://www.geocities.com/~jbenz/against.wav) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 10:18:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBJIHjc4011841; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:17:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBJIHhno011823; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:17:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:17:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=fIkvctwb+kMzFyEjqMso3yYiaUAP3KBrRvz5uMkPiYRH2K6e1cQmZCmkmDtTJHHAEXhvzSpqOh+ZXA0OsQoveFd8xIjumKKZrrEsb/tM35+iG9uC6jH7TEiWiDWjnT8aSrSTodPPjEyf47xDU/sUWoWiAWuyec4dR3f9mqY8Spk= ; Message-ID: <20061219181742.10728.qmail web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:17:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Green Beamer maybe Davis Mechanics at work To: rockcastle lakeside1.net Cc: vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBJIHf6d011792 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Original Message ---- From: Standing Bear > "This ten-to-one ratio of comparative fuel usage is *actual and proven* beyond any doubt in this vehicle over 100,000 miles....The heat content of hydrogen is: 61,000 Btu/lb (141.86 kJ/g) The heat content of Gasoline, in contrast is: 20,360 Btu/lb (47.5 kJ/g) > Here is the anomaly - In actual testing of these vehicles, using identical engines, automobiles and roads or testing tracks, etc at both BMW and Ford, the hydrogen powered vehicle will go about 10 time further per pound-equivalent of hydrogen fuel, compared to gasoline. > S.B: Maybe a little of a 'Davis Mechanics" effect going on here... professor Davis at a Florida university who died ....shortly....after publishing a theory on this brought out the idea that a second derivative term added to the standard equation for force may be showing itself. I have thought about this, and further postulate that not only a second derivitave term, but a Taylor series of them may be really at work: F = m {a + a' +a'' +a'''.....[(d^n)a]/(dt^n)] > There is a solution to this Taylor in most elementary Calculus books. I just did not memorize it thirty years ago when I took the course. Thanks for this input, Col. --- Yes - there is no doubt in my mind that the lighter molecule -hydrogen - or especially as 'nascent hydrogen' in the first few milliseconds following detonation - is able to somehow turn what would be normal acceleration into a higher power-law - the so-called "jerk" or "jounce"... this is over-and-above the advantages of more complete burn, which Robin mentioned yesterday, or the higher gas pressure. In fact it is somewhat spectacular in its own way, as are all exponential advantages, when compared to standard rates of increase. We have alluded to the higher power laws of movement (above standard acceleration) a number of times in the past on vortex, when the differences between 'simple combustion' and the 'shock wave' of an explosion come into play - to effectively multiply the heat energy which is available from a chemical reaction into a force which far exceeds expectations and the normal effects of Boyle's Law and the other thermodynamic constraints which are normally at play in combustion. This is a different ball-game with H2 when acceleration is magically turned into jerk! (no need to mention the Jamaican Bob-sledders, mon) There are presently a cadre of otherwise intelligent and well-trained but short-sighted scientists and engineers out-there, even on vortex, who frequently comment to pooh-pooh the so-called "hydrogen economy" as being "mostly hype" but of no special substance since most hydrogen now comes from natural gas and so-on and so-firth - and... for the simple reason that they do NOT understand this major point which is so critical that I might be inclined to repeat this every time anyone puts-down the hydrogen economy: This is NOT just about a substitute fuel ! ...but it is also, and even more so - about a greatly enhanced *fuel conversion process* and the irony is this, coming from the opposite extreme of disinformation - the hydrogen economy is also NOT about the fuel-cell. The fuel cell is a needless waste of time and resources. It is overpriced and under-performing in any net power situation! It is a red herring if there ever was one. Forget the fuel cell but focus on hydrogen when used in "shock wave" situation where its *times-ten* advantage in higher atomic and molecular mobility is cubed to become *times-100* so to speak... The standard tried-and-true ICE is the key to this greatly enhanced *fuel conversion process* using hydrogen. Maybe it is no sexy like fuel cells and other darlings of the stock promoters but WILL BE the answer to let us use hydrogen competitively to reduce or eleiminate fossil fuels. Solar, wind, fermentation or nuclear derived hydrogen will do that now ! End of daily green-spiel. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 10:39:00 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBJIcoFl008573; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:38:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBJIcmWs008557; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:38:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:38:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=RvChoarU43+hd4Okn3mtmwbcIWdjuvwAwaVlqoN0rVhwWW6SX3q5V0mZ7CTu9kJZcGsdTRRzfyU7cEvX9PTBFdZM3+3zCmroedcKk6BhJBOvJ4jJoojqOzzmi8Ae7K3+F6XQgTKO9VnZYYnOnzRsKW1uTZnVRZhjzAslJiK8O3g= ; Message-ID: <20061219183847.20266.qmail web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:38:47 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Green Beamer maybe Davis Mechanics at work To: vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBJIclV0008540 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In my haste to get off the Vo-soap-box, I mis-stated: "Forget the fuel cell but focus on hydrogen when used in "shock wave" situation where its *times-ten* advantage in higher atomic and molecular mobility is cubed to become *times-100* so to speak... The standard tried-and-true ICE is the key to this greatly enhanced *fuel conversion process* using hydrogen. Obviously going from acceleration to "jerk" is a squaring, not cubing. But... since you mentioned it, vern... speaking of cubed - there is the cubic power law of higher RPM, mentioned a few days ago which also comes into play when a jerk-increase in the compression chamber results in higher RPM for the same amount of fuel. Then the power available is cubed. If the 'jerk' of the shock-wave in the ICE combustion chamber, following hydrogen detonation, pushes against the piston with enough increase in net force applied, so that the engine spins 20 percent faster than if "only" acceleration were involved... then the net increase in power output is 1.2 ^3 or 73% OK back to the green-beamer of the original posting (don't ya thing BMW should comp. me one for all the free PR work ?) anyway, all of this taken together: higher Carnot eff, acceleration > jerk, more complete burn, higher steam compressive strength, higher RPM and the overlapping slight but exponential increases due to power law - all of that pretty much explains the anomaly, doesn't it? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 11:36:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBJJaTww026725; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:36:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBJJaR6S026702; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:36:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:36:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Hall of Mirrors Universe X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20061219193622.66D7A8B333 xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:36:22 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What I find most fascinating about the Hall of Mirrors Universe idea is not its mathematical or physical validity. I don't find myself qualified to comment on this. What's most interesting to me is that all the references to this concept, of which there are many on the internet, call a soccer ball (football) 12-sided. The classic football has 32 sides, 12 pentagons and 20 hexagons. While this is not particularly important as far as the cosmology is concerned, the fact that this error would be repeated over and over again by serious scientists and mathematicians makes one wonder how often serious errors are repeated until they become accepted fact. M. --------Original Message-------- Jones Beene wrote: >From the "believe it or not" department... and adding new meaning to the "World Cup" of soccer (as we Yanks like to call that hands-free, 12-sided-ball game). There is nothing scientific nor which has been proved to date, in all of cosmology and physics, to show that the Universe is extremely (or infinitely) large, nor even that it is a set old-age (13-15 billion years) nor even that it is expanding at all ! Nothing, zero, nada, nil! All we have for proof, as 2006 ends, is based on logical (human logic) inference (if not sound-and-fury from self-appointed experts) All of the above physical properties of the universe, including so-called "red-shift" are conjectures based on the premise (very understandable human logic) that what we see when we look into the vast reaches of space with a telescope (or from Hubble images) is the single *object itself. Don't "duh" that part. It does seem logical at first to us humanoids, to assume this as a 'given', but in fact, it probably is NOT true... and most of what we see in telescopes is probably not the single object itself For instance, when we see a galaxy far removed and supposedly very old... instead of that being all there is to the story, what we see in that one instance may be but a *reflection* (one of many) of far fewer objects, each of which reflection is repeated many times throughout space, all showing differing red-shits and perspective of the same object, and varying according to the relative placement of the "virtual" mirror - which is gravitational curvature (and a 12-sided curvature. Specifically, the very same object can be repeatedly seen, out in space, twelve times or much more but it is still a single entity. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 12:42:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBJKgD6L012020; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:42:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBJKgAjl011998; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:42:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:42:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Qs5LvvISCHS43ZQwf7LHOWAGLlgQDdxiMjhDTQDGzJLJsTpems0TuhL44DDDT16w/Yb5Wn34up66dChEXlqBp8/7FR3LADvjLAUBSdQWN6R7eWh6KKe8jtm8ZhB1uzguDS58qk3CZuxQS6yGmU43ooTLLk+XLaBplnL7kQSG9Ww= ; Message-ID: <20061219204206.20677.qmail web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:42:05 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]:Hall of Mirrors Universe To: michael.foster excite.com Cc: vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBJKg9Cq011971 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ---- From: Michael Foster > What's most interesting to me is that all the references to this concept, of which there are many on the internet, call a soccer ball (football) 12-sided. The classic football has 32 sides, 12 pentagons and 20 hexagons. Indeed you are correct, Michael. Matter of fact there is even a name for this seeming chimera: the truncated icosahedron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truncated_icosahedron > While this is not particularly important as far as the cosmology is concerned, the fact that this error would be repeated over and over again by serious scientists and mathematicians makes one wonder how often serious errors are repeated until they become accepted fact. ...ah... you mean: like the laws of thermodynamics ? And apologies for not seeing this error ... no provincial excuses either as I did play intercollegiate soccer... but that that was many moons ago... or should I say: many truncated-icosahedrons ago ... Jones BTW this truncated icosahedron shape was also the configuration used for focusing the explosive shock waves of the detonators in the original A-bomb... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:40:37 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBJNeP8P001546; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:40:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBJNeGbw001515; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:40:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:40:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=pK2NMYPiTq6l7CKvjGlcMB9T/6W8nM7veGmpcrTWeaZQuYwhFKQ98G6zGVpvbOv8ep2J3iNdJTNIk8kH4j5DRiAUQL/BKEmeJ4RWhq7NDw4f1OC9vOdpruMFItHAQKXDRTwMAZHkuEHwbGJVcH/eAP827yUXwy/bVl8yap8jtuc= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:40:15 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <4588114F.9000902 pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4588114F.9000902 pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/19/06, Jones Beene wrote: > For instance, when we see a galaxy far removed and supposedly very old... > instead of that being all there is to the story, what we see in that one > instance may be but a *reflection* (one of many) of far fewer objects, each > of which reflection is repeated many times throughout space, all showing > differing red-shits I am not yet decided if the last word of the quoted statement is the delusion of a dyslexic mind or the humongous humor I have seen in the Horse Bean. However, current Higgs field theories seem to indicate that the universe is much larger than what we can actually see. All string theorists (including the most delectable Lisa Randall) await November of 2007: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider Meanwhile, I contemplate how to reduce inductance. Do I cool the coil and jack the voltage or do I reconstruct it with silver and gold plated conductors? Milliseconds seem to matter. Words to the wise. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 16:12:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBK0CTeR003491; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:12:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBK0COFK003461; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:12:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:12:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 19:09:55 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 12/19/06, Jones Beene wrote: > >> For instance, when we see a galaxy far removed and supposedly very old... >> instead of that being all there is to the story, what we see in that one >> instance may be but a *reflection* (one of many) of far fewer objects, each >> of which reflection is repeated many times throughout space, all showing >> differing red-shits > > I am not yet decided if the last word of the quoted statement is the > delusion of a dyslexic mind or the humongous humor I have seen in the > Horse Bean. > > However, current Higgs field theories seem to indicate that the > universe is much larger than what we can actually see. All string > theorists (including the most delectable Lisa Randall) await November > of 2007: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider Large_Hardon_Collider Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 16:45:33 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBK0jK6j029523; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:45:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBK0jFSv029464; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:45:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:45:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45888787.7000305 usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:44:55 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Bell interview Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians; Last night's guest on C to C AM was Dr. Fred Bell. This guy claims to have consulted on all sorts of high technology development. He also claims that much of our technology comes from the "aliens." IMHO, this denigrates human intellectual achievement. His bio says that he was part of MK Ultra. This is supposed to be a mind control system, used by The Powers That Be, which makes his conclusions suspect. I've spent some time pruzing his website. He claims that his stand alone projector will give you anything that you want. What can I say, I can think of a lot of things that I want, I'm going to inquire about the price. He also claims that we are all being poisoned. Pesticides, jet fuel additives, depleted uranium DU. He claims that when we shoot off a lot of DU shells, a few days later you can detect it in Florida. This just feeds my belief that the World continues to deteriorate. IMHO, DU shells were unnecessary. He contends that his devices produce scalar waves which interact with the human body making it work better. He says that his Flame Thrower can cause a UFO to go away, which if you were concerned about being abducted, would be a good thing. Ranchers who are having cattle mutilation events should be interested in having one. He also says that this technology can be used as a FE device, although the power is quite limited. http://www.pyradyne.com/artc-flamethrower.html --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 18:35:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBK2YlSw031660; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:34:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBK2YfGW031632; Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:34:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:34:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EdPYBmKAQhEJfsiFdUOL2W/ch61bjo+jP1CiDFadTeHLqxETPILp6RdOh9q5WIxepvc1adDiv8K4eCYU6wguS2Zw2FFXgF9uFrzYitdXQYowV8tqkxUEULU+t7vEc/Tv2WWlBuv73l/4OhdDROyI+h7Vk1gY3WLyjasbOstNbK4= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 21:34:39 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bell interview In-Reply-To: <45888787.7000305 usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45888787.7000305 usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/19/06, thomas malloy wrote: > Vortexians; > > Last night's guest on C to C AM was Dr. Fred Bell. This guy claims to > have consulted on all sorts of high technology development. Porcine ablution runoff, IMO. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 01:52:22 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBK9qAVe032365; Wed, 20 Dec 2006 01:52:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBK9q8K9032351; Wed, 20 Dec 2006 01:52:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 01:52:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=jIDdvqpFmp7rNxIHFJjmkoZA6HYTWGv423rkqNQ/castVZ7mE2KjhoP2NUQs5FLM; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <33044290.1166608327620.JavaMail.root elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 01:52:07 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d84b3c7412858694ee255b5ab3548437e5547562a158a8cca8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.42 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Season's greetings Status: O X-Status: Peace on Mars and Goodwill to Martians! ---hopefully for Earth too!--- -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 07:31:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBKFUjSN016284; Wed, 20 Dec 2006 07:30:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBKFUbfM016144; Wed, 20 Dec 2006 07:30:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 07:30:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061220092643.03e77f30 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 09:27:24 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <1adeJB.A.f7D.acViFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Iorio's cold fusion web site in Italian Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.ioriocirillo.com/ For help understanding: http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ioriocirillo.com%2F&langpair=it%7Cen&hl=en&c2coff=1&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 08:22:17 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBKGLxjV031077; Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:22:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBKGLrRI031041; Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:21:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:21:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: Arbt8aQVM1neAuhxFx61As1z6wWH0CRYhlctspEG8a_007Oc3nJEMkxPk0YGXOvOM4mEQnilRjei_jJ7dNcikagJDKX8HUUh_s87H0CHIEVMpgAGgpUXunyoc7LowCGKDOInMnKjc6vbiyE- Message-ID: <45896316.6040204 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:21:42 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <69ndVB.A.ykH.gMWiFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Magmos, dipoles, and conservation of energy Status: O X-Status: Back on 6/20/06, after I had baldly asserted that "magnetic fields do no work", George Holz wrote, regarding the fields of permanent magnets, > The currents are almost entirely electron spin dipoles aligned > within in changing domains which reorient to aid the applied field. And I responded, regarding the energy gained by such a dipole as moves due to the force on it from a nonuniform magnetic field, > Where'd the energy come from? I have no idea. And after that I said nothing much at all about magnetic motors or permanent magnets for a good long time. Since then I've given it some thought and I finally worked through a classical (non-quantum, just magnetostatics) analysis of the forces and torques on a dipole, which I put on a web page. The upshot is that, for a permanent dipole in a nonuniform but fixed magnetic field, the forces are conservative (and, _yes_, the magnetic field certainly does "do work" on the dipole). The page is here: http://www.physicsinsights.org/force_on_dipole_1.html and the conclusion that the forces are conservative is found here: http://www.physicsinsights.org/force_on_dipole_1.html#conservative For electromagnets, as opposed to permanent (spin) dipoles, the force is due to q(E+vxB) and the work done comes from the currents. There's more to be said about that, however, and I will be writing up a companion page on electromagnetic dipoles and their interactions with each other and with permanent dipoles, in which I'll also say a little more about the consequences of the force on a permanent dipole being conservative. The upshot is that magnetic motors which gain energy from permanent magnets do, indeed, violate the classical model of magnetism. So, before you invest a lot of money in such a device, you should give some thought to how accurate you think the classical models of magnets and magnetostatics really are. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 14:01:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBKM1H2X019661; Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:01:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBKM0nTV019469; Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:00:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:00:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: eamUDlMVM1mCzhWlaBiLHTnOyY27TQZYSGgfOvz13_UTTMYflI708h.lM_vW4TlKsRR239jsj0teJKv7WhYrVa8ehD6aOrP8vtnNtij3T9AUb4Lj.QC50vi2c3q8jrEuMdBLgsxtu0JXTg8- Message-ID: <4589B284.8080504 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:00:36 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: References: <4588114F.9000902 pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > Meanwhile, I contemplate how to reduce inductance. Do I cool the coil > and jack the voltage or do I reconstruct it with silver and gold > plated conductors? > > Milliseconds seem to matter. Do you mean reduce resistance? (Inductance certainly won't be affected by cooling the coil, so I'd guess you meant to say resistance.) Anyhow I will go ahead and stick my foot in and you can ignore these comments as you see fit... Silver plating won't help a whole lot unless the frequency's high enough for skin effect to play a big role. For low frequencies you would want to use solid silver wire. For motors operating at reasonably normal speeds I wouldn't think you'd care about skin effect. At "millisecond" speeds, as you say, I don't think skin effect is usually a major issue. For really HF, on the other hand, you don't want to use silver plating because it tarnishes; I believe the "gold standard" is palladium plating on silver for super HF stuff. IIRC gold is no great shakes in the conductivity department; it's used in connectors because it won't tarnish. Again, that might be a win for very HF work where you really care whether there's a semiconductive surface film of crud or not, but for low frequency work I suspect you're better off with plain copper than gold (but I didn't look this up and I could be all wet here). OTOH gold plating is presumably a lot cheaper than palladium plating if skin effect is a problem. > > Words to the wise. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 17:11:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBL1Bh9F001465; Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:11:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBL1Bbtq001404; Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:11:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:11:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:10:57 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <4588114F.9000902 pacbell.net> <4589B284.8080504@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <4589B284.8080504 pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 21 Dec 2006 01:10:57 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBL1B1v6001219 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:00:36 -0500: Hi, [snip] >IIRC gold is no great shakes in the conductivity department; it's used >in connectors because it won't tarnish. Again, that might be a win for >very HF work where you really care whether there's a semiconductive >surface film of crud or not, but for low frequency work I suspect you're >better off with plain copper than gold (but I didn't look this up and I >could be all wet here). OTOH gold plating is presumably a lot cheaper >than palladium plating if skin effect is a problem. [snip] Order of conductivity:- Ag, Cu, Au, Al. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 20:46:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBL4k9lK009110; Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:46:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBL4k7MG009089; Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:46:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:46:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061220205159.02a99dc8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:52:23 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_862161609==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: --=====================_862161609==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable December 20, 2006 04:51 PM Eastern Time Solar Energy Limited and D2Fusion Announce Major Strides on the Path to=20 Fusion Energy At a Time of Deepening Concern over Fuel Costs, Energy Security and=20 CO2-Driven Global Warming, Solar Energy Limited (SLRE.ob) and D2Fusion,=20 Inc. Announce Major Advances in the Development of Clean Solid-State Fusion= =20 Heat Sources SAN FRANCISCO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Last week D2Fusion's 2006 year-end=20 scientific and engineering progress review brought together its Silicon=20 Valley and Los Alamos nuclear physics teams to report on recent=20 breakthroughs in the quantification of their solid state fusion effects,=20 synchronize experiment replication schedules, and coordinate engineering=20 plans for 2007. D2Fusion is a subsidiary of the publicly traded company=20 Solar Energy Limited (OTCBB:SLRE). During the last year, the company developed and installed in both its=20 headquarters=92 and Los Alamos facilities, innovative and highly sensitive= =20 mass spectrometer apparatuses, which are now in daily use allowing the=20 observation and quantification of helium isotope production in near real=20 time. These detection systems readily discriminate and quantify helium=20 (4He) ranging from a few parts per billion to hundreds of parts per million= =20 accumulating in methodology trials lasting from weeks to months. According to D2Fusion CEO Russ George, "Helium is the definitive 'nuclear=20 ash' proving the occurrence of deuterium nuclei fusion in highly energetic= =20 reactions. While these are essentially the same nuclear reactions that=20 power the sun and stars, our solid state form of fusion occurs at ordinary= =20 temperatures (0=B0-600=B0 C) and, most importantly, without the emission of= =20 dangerous radiation. The fuel is =91heavy hydrogen=92 or deuterium, and our= =20 recent work indicates obtainable energy densities ranging from a few tenths= =20 of a watt to a few tens of watts per cubic centimeter." Former EPRI (Electric Power Research Institute) nuclear power project=20 manager and D2Fusion Chief Scientist, Dr. Tom Passell describes the firm's= =20 R&D approach, "We believe in the virtues of intramural competition and=20 cooperation at every level of this work. We even pit different fusion=20 methodologies against each other in our labs and use the clues derived to=20 accelerate each other's progress. In the end, this is a totally synergistic= =20 enterprise and no matter which technique proves market-ready first next=20 year, it will be greeted as a historic victory for all." Both facilities are now completing integration of their reaction,=20 measurement, and calibration systems to allow reciprocally coordinated=20 replication runs, and plan to install a third interoperable sister system=20 in a leading European science institute in the next several months. In 2007= =20 all three labs will focus upon scaling up the reaction to commercially=20 significant output levels and developing heating module prototypes for=20 domestic and industrial use. A number of statements in this press release may be considered to be=20 forward-looking statements made pursuant to the safe harbor provisions of=20 the Private Securities Litigation Act of 1995. These forward-looking=20 statements involve a number of risks and uncertainties, including timely=20 development, and market acceptance of products and technologies,=20 competitive market conditions, and the ability to secure additional sources= =20 of financing. The actual results Solar Energy Limited may achieve could=20 differ materially from any forward-looking statements due to such risks and= =20 uncertainties. Contacts D2Fusion, Inc. David Kubiak, 650-638-1975 Ext 203 david planktos.com --=====================_862161609==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable December 20, 2006 04:51 PM Eastern Time


Solar Energy Limited and D2Fusion Announce Major Strides on the Path to Fusion Energy

At a Time of Deepening Concern over Fuel Costs, Energy Security and CO2-Driven Global Warming, Solar Energy Limited (SLRE.ob) and D2Fusion, Inc. Announce Major Advances in the Development of Clean Solid-State Fusion Heat Sources

SAN FRANCISCO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Last week D2Fusion's 2006 year-end scientific and engineering progress review brought together its Silicon Valley and Los Alamos nuclear physics teams to report on recent breakthroughs in the quantification of their solid state fusion effects, synchronize experiment replication schedules, and coordinate engineering plans for 2007. D2Fusion is a subsidiary of the publicly traded company Solar Energy Limited (OTCBB:SLRE).

During the last year, the company developed and installed in both its headquarters=92 and Los Alamos facilities, innovative and highly sensitive mass spectrometer apparatuses, which are now in daily use allowing the observation and quantification of helium isotope production in near real time. These detection systems readily discriminate and quantify helium (4He) ranging from a few parts per billion to hundreds of parts per million accumulating in methodology trials lasting from weeks to months.

According to D2Fusion CEO Russ George, "Helium is the definitive 'nuclear ash' proving the occurrence of deuterium nuclei fusion in highly energetic reactions. While these are essentially the same nuclear reactions that power the sun and stars, our solid state form of fusion occurs at ordinary temperatures (0=B0-600=B0 C) and, most importantly, without the emission of dangerous radiation. The fuel is =91heavy hydrogen= =92 or deuterium, and our recent work indicates obtainable energy densities ranging from a few tenths of a watt to a few tens of watts per cubic centimeter."

Former EPRI (Electric Power Research Institute) nuclear power project manager and D2Fusion Chief Scientist, Dr. Tom Passell describes the firm's R&D approach, "We believe in the virtues of intramural competition and cooperation at every level of this work. We even pit different fusion methodologies against each other in our labs and use the clues derived to accelerate each other's progress. In the end, this is a totally synergistic enterprise and no matter which technique proves market-ready first next year, it will be greeted as a historic victory for all."

Both facilities are now completing integration of their reaction, measurement, and calibration systems to allow reciprocally coordinated replication runs, and plan to install a third interoperable sister system in a leading European science institute in the next several months. In 2007 all three labs will focus upon scaling up the reaction to commercially significant output levels and developing heating module prototypes for domestic and industrial use.

A number of statements in this press release may be considered to be forward-looking statements made pursuant to the safe harbor provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Act of 1995. These forward-looking statements involve a number of risks and uncertainties, including timely development, and market acceptance of products and technologies, competitive market conditions, and the ability to secure additional sources of financing. The actual results Solar Energy Limited may achieve could differ materially from any forward-looking statements due to such risks and uncertainties.
Contacts

D2Fusion, Inc.
David Kubiak, 650-638-1975 Ext 203
david planktos.com
 
--=====================_862161609==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 20:52:30 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBL4qLnQ006200; Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:52:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBL4q67P006132; Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:52:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:52:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061220205727.02a8ab38 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:58:26 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: D2Fusion Press Release Status: O X-Status: Has anybody solved the mystery of the missing subject line yet? I think it may have something to do with CAPS. The previous message I sent had this as the subject line: D2Fusion Press Release s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 04:31:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBLCUuJi022236; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 04:30:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBLCUoTu022205; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 04:30:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 04:30:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YUvHx0gMLpr2u67VpJze93BIkpPyw36w4ge55GKf691QnEFw6a2ejobcPxpJBdR1oW6THEUBZ/VbQH94O9PUi5Xp4IScsqb00e11gSIt5YrRV6cIE70C1lJhOKS02nummFpncpQCAt8CJoQ9TNTxwf58OQuH+20v6gvtFo/OVu4= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 07:30:48 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <4589B284.8080504 pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4588114F.9000902 pacbell.net> <4589B284.8080504 pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/20/06, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Do you mean reduce resistance? For a given voltage the time for the current to rise to 67% of its steady state value is given by L/R. Since I must achieve a certain current to achieve a certain magnetic field strength of the electromagnet, the rise time is essentially wasted duty cycle. If I am duty cycle limited, I want to minimize the rise time. The obvious way is to raise the voltage; but, I don't want to exceed 0.5 times the break down voltage of the insulation. As Jones points out, I could use a different core; but, the super permalloy (aka spermalloy :-) being used is probably the best choice. I think we've decided that the least expensive approach for now is to use solid CO2 to increase the duty cycle of the EM by pulling out any heat generated by the coil. (BTW, Jones, virtually every local supermarket sells dry ice these days.) Besides, the condensing water vapor will give the whole test rig that mad scientist look. :-) Ironic that one of the goals of a magnetic motor is to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, however. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 07:02:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBLF1sUM023329; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 07:01:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBLF1jPq023286; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 07:01:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 07:01:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: IgQRvRoVM1mjl65alwv6fxqbGhm8hgMSh9G8bP48TGcH0RMjrYr2bphq0MSW652.cwhnTuCtsxBWIdNXTMGVLz9dzvjRI8ZtSUp8RxdVoNl13vlM_n__60ZVrTa8R9ON0rZd.s3LaSeZ0IuR3Fg.EUyLRh.eMdi2hHACjitmi2h0kz18jznWngZ4ZCaE6O3.lQ-- Message-ID: <458AA1D3.9080409 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:01:39 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: References: <4588114F.9000902 pacbell.net> <4589B284.8080504@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It seems to me that maybe you don't really want to minimize L. If I understand correctly, you're not really interested in the rise time, L/R, per se; rather, you're interested in the time it takes the field to get to some particular value, H_0. Is that correct? As I understand it, the field strength depends linearly on the inductance and the current, with some constant of proportionality which depends on the core material and shape. Right? Something like this: H_0 = k * L * I_0 I'm totally in the dark when it comes to electromagnet core materials, performance, and geometry so I won't say anything more about "k". Change in current in an inductor goes linearly in the applied voltage (minus the back EMF due to resistance), and inversely as the inductance; like this: dI/dt = (V - RI)/L Cross multiply: L*dI/(V-RI) = dt and then the rise time you're interested in is presumably: T_0 = integral(0->(H_0/kL)) [L/(V-RI)] dI Exercising my feeble integration skills, if I didn't blow it, that's T_0 = (L/R) ln[kVL/(kVL - H_0*R)] Decreasing L and increasing R makes the L/R term smaller but makes the ln[] term larger. If we make the (probably awful) assumption that R has been reduced and/or V and L have been boosted so that the ln[] term is close to zero, then we can replace it with a first order approximation, and get T_0 ~ (L/R) [H_0*R/(kVL - H_0*R)] or, replacing (L/R) with (1/R)/(1/L) and multiplying through, T_0 ~ H_0 * 1/(kV - (H_0*R/L)) This suggests you want to _boost_ L and V as far as you can, boost "k" (which you already knew), and reduce R as much as possible. So, silver wire, for sure. I still don't think skin effect is going to be a major issue here, though, so plating on the wire is probably irrelevant. Terry Blanton wrote: > On 12/20/06, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> Do you mean reduce resistance? > > For a given voltage the time for the current to rise to 67% of its > steady state value is given by L/R. Since I must achieve a certain > current to achieve a certain magnetic field strength of the > electromagnet, the rise time is essentially wasted duty cycle. If I > am duty cycle limited, I want to minimize the rise time. > > The obvious way is to raise the voltage; but, I don't want to exceed > 0.5 times the break down voltage of the insulation. As Jones points > out, I could use a different core; but, the super permalloy (aka > spermalloy :-) being used is probably the best choice. > > I think we've decided that the least expensive approach for now is to > use solid CO2 to increase the duty cycle of the EM by pulling out any > heat generated by the coil. (BTW, Jones, virtually every local > supermarket sells dry ice these days.) Besides, the condensing water > vapor will give the whole test rig that mad scientist look. :-) > > Ironic that one of the goals of a magnetic motor is to reduce > greenhouse gas emissions, however. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 09:08:57 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBLH8kMt025251; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:08:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBLH8fYL025231; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:08:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:08:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type; b=V8qJbkwlW8F5RiKq1IDOMcGCDTKzvYOyUM0XHfg8E/1qpLSPUuGsYHqXkMVi0QlfeV2L+Q8hNkX6bBfF149t3qlqxngGkDVSliyEWd4OxkhHpEgQfDsBD4qaSnh+hqvxrUZc0oJ7uXxAkZG1iDjAYMF5OxD+H5YIttxc6PCrdy0= ; X-YMail-OSG: saVn.B0VM1kopBIBReyOESfKm4bDOrEeVXrxfJyjSe7zk42iht4Ea4fYoTyommB2QEQDBqnMCQfBvUqPPxQV9IdTLG873OvwI9GzhriM_NAmlL2No_9oxsPdNsia620_9wWLcTb1G3CPqZI- Message-ID: <458ABF96.9010304 pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:08:38 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010407020900090902070700" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Paper by Hal Puthoff Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010407020900090902070700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New Paper by Hal Puthoff has implications for EVOs and arc-discharges, not to mention - possibly negating some of R. Mills' CQM theory. "Casimir vacuum energy and the semiclassical electron" http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0610042 Abstract In 1953 Casimir proposed a semiclassical model for the electron based on the concept that net inward radiation pressure from the electromagnetic vacuum fluctuations fields (as in the Casimir effect, generally) might play the role of Poincare stresses, compensating outward coulomb pressure to yield a stable configuration at small dimensions. Given that in scattering experiments the electron appears point-like, critical to the success of the proposed model is demonstration that the self-energy corresponding to the divergent coulomb field does not contribute to the electron mass. Here we develop a self-consistent, vacuum-fluctuation-based model that satisfies this requirement and thereby resolves the issue of what would otherwise appear to be an incompatibility between a point-like electron and finite mass. Casimir proposed two semiclassical models of the electron in the spirit of Lorentz. Though such modeling is out of favor nowadays, except for Mills' massive oeuvre: CQM (and for whatever reason Puthoff generally ignores R. Mills) the potential for insights remains seductive and it appears that "dualities" such as in wave/particle duality are poised to become trinities (fitting for the season perhaps) .The second Casimir model received little attention but is the subject of Hal Puthoff's short note. A implication of this model is that the strong force doesn't contribute to the mass of the electron, so EVOs would likely have same charge-to-mass ratio as an electron, if they're also held together by vacuum forces; and the putative energy mechanism of Mills' hydrino is not accurate (using this model). --------------010407020900090902070700 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New Paper by Hal Puthoff has implications for EVOs and arc-discharges, not to mention - possibly negating some of R. Mills' CQM theory.

"Casimir vacuum energy and the semiclassical electron"

http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0610042

Abstract

In 1953 Casimir proposed a semiclassical model for the electron based on the concept
that net inward radiation pressure from the electromagnetic vacuum fluctuations fields (as
in the Casimir effect, generally) might play the role of Poincare stresses, compensating
outward coulomb pressure to yield a stable configuration at small dimensions. Given that
in scattering experiments the electron appears point-like, critical to the success of the
proposed model is demonstration that the self-energy corresponding to the divergent
coulomb field does not contribute to the electron mass. Here we develop a self-consistent,
vacuum-fluctuation-based model that satisfies this requirement and thereby
resolves the issue of what would otherwise appear to be an incompatibility between a
point-like electron and finite mass.


Casimir proposed two semiclassical models of the electron in the spirit of Lorentz. Though such modeling is out of favor nowadays, except for Mills' massive oeuvre:  CQM (and for whatever reason Puthoff generally ignores R. Mills) the potential for insights remains seductive and it appears that "dualities" such as in wave/particle duality are poised to become trinities <g> (fitting for the season perhaps) .The second Casimir model received little attention but is the subject of Hal Puthoff's short note. A implication of this model is that the strong force doesn't contribute to the mass of the electron, so EVOs would likely have same charge-to-mass ratio as an electron, if they're also held together by vacuum forces; and the putative energy mechanism of Mills' hydrino is not accurate (using this model).


 --------------010407020900090902070700-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 10:34:39 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBLIYV38006788; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:34:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBLIYUVc006774; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:34:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:34:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=aLtPRLNokXOVEiuldwVUg2vcF8joC6kKrmeVaI/78J5zxMEW7MAyo6hnY+Uvf+b4swkkSupkUxKqvWkNCkWmRpxDDQUBMO3KM0u152p7OPP3OtGC3W0hfDUYRpFpVY7++6SukXdP1mt+NVGEtnhiYbejpJHwBwUyFUPBpqNpXM8= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:34:27 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <7hljXD.A.upB.1OtiFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: D2Fusion PR Status: O X-Status: On 12/20/06, Steven Krivit wrote: > SAN FRANCISCO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Last week D2Fusion's 2006 year-end > scientific and engineering progress review brought together its Silicon > Valley and Los Alamos nuclear physics teams to report on recent > breakthroughs in the quantification of their solid state fusion effects, > synchronize experiment replication schedules, and coordinate engineering > plans for 2007. D2Fusion is a subsidiary of the publicly traded company > Solar Energy Limited (OTCBB:SLRE). Wall Street isn't buyin' it. Their stock had dropped 25% in two weeks to $0.45. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 10:49:08 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBLIn4i6015110; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:49:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBLImxAd015080; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:48:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:48:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061221105438.02a51cb0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:55:24 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: D2Fusion PR In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: but hey, give 'em a chance. The press release only came out yesterday. At 10:34 AM 12/21/2006, you wrote: >On 12/20/06, Steven Krivit wrote: > >>SAN FRANCISCO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Last week D2Fusion's 2006 year-end >>scientific and engineering progress review brought together its Silicon >>Valley and Los Alamos nuclear physics teams to report on recent >>breakthroughs in the quantification of their solid state fusion effects, >>synchronize experiment replication schedules, and coordinate engineering >>plans for 2007. D2Fusion is a subsidiary of the publicly traded company >>Solar Energy Limited (OTCBB:SLRE). > >Wall Street isn't buyin' it. Their stock had dropped 25% in two weeks to >$0.45. > >Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 10:50:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBLIo2A3027184; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:50:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBLInoCF027064; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:49:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:49:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1910617483.1166726983948.JavaMail.root fepweb04> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:49:43 -0800 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <425ozC.A.umG.OdtiFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: D2Fusion PR Status: O X-Status: ---- Terry Blanton wrote: > On 12/20/06, Steven Krivit wrote: > > > SAN FRANCISCO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Last week D2Fusion's 2006 year-end > > scientific and engineering progress review brought together its Silicon > > Valley and Los Alamos nuclear physics teams to report on recent > > breakthroughs in the quantification of their solid state fusion effects, > > synchronize experiment replication schedules, and coordinate engineering > > plans for 2007. D2Fusion is a subsidiary of the publicly traded company > > Solar Energy Limited (OTCBB:SLRE). > > Wall Street isn't buyin' it. Their stock had dropped 25% in two weeks to $0.45. > > Terry > As if Wall Street had a clue. Perhaps it's time for one's contrarian instincts to kick in. There be bargains! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 12:25:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBLKPHSA017496; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:25:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBLKPCsK017469; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:25:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:25:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=gdF1J0GTORCNPN+YFqNBZpJYV6mS+OjoNF0iSyHjfHSTHBbtlcW2uF3ot6L1LmK/J5mC0e6XZpz3/yOh42AWOI7rkUZXDenZVGABmVFOpqR0JJQN+ViaXNiML0hvtvU2L5wjxlChQyYUfAKMSq3FWYOa78bAbDqVH2cGudQGtTk= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:25:09 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: D2Fusion PR In-Reply-To: <1910617483.1166726983948.JavaMail.root fepweb04> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1910617483.1166726983948.JavaMail.root fepweb04> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/21/06, OrionWorks wrote: > As if Wall Street had a clue. > > Perhaps it's time for one's contrarian instincts to kick in. > > There be bargains! Yeppers. That's what I thought. I bought in at $0.65. Today I doubled my stock qty. and bought at $0.45. My net cost is now $0.55. I figure if I only lose a little per share, I'll make it up on volume. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 12:43:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBLKhBwf025742; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:43:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBLKh6Hf025705; Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:43:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:43:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20061221204255.79402.qmail web62406.mail.re1.yahoo.com> DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=apcLEwT1WunAV4LxYB/kUOxqoPaDgHuYFnC9T/NFFTu5i0HZPCCRYxBdGOgOQynSiLWICILdfpGWf9j4yUQ0dZ5CKw4gQyfnW8p4pRsgNyYOit8VDMhCd4ckt/YIlAV022dTO+el1iGWE3CW9Lvk5VA5dYR7we9gLTfSeP7ozOM=; X-YMail-OSG: ExXzyT4VM1kHA1CI.cHRwWdCbHptZBmKz_C6PdeEr5cNhCIpfceHra5_d23e.Bm8reDOC8jQxdBPNfU0ea6hdo4.A1_KJKX9Wiz5lDSXVQI1Ysd3y1M3TMSGRsCSTBEAKv8LXs5e2ajHAZjPv3TR5Q0- Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:42:55 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: [Vo]: Re: [virus Win32/Bagle.FA worm] price To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Alert, the email from Billb contains the Win32/Bagle.FA worm within the pricelist.zip Billb wrote: > February price > > > __________ NOD32 1931 (20061220) Warning __________ > > Warning: NOD32 antivirus system found the following in the message: > pricelist.zip - Win32/Bagle.FA worm - deleted > pricelist.zip > ZIP > tljtw.exe - Win32/Bagle.FA worm - was a part of > the deleted object > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 05:12:26 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBMDCLGY021874; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 05:12:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBMDC4x8021819; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 05:12:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 05:12:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=kwCpUQWV37L7RCXX1bEbOg4rTuBGJ0szR/snKyoMCnMkSuIPBypBhvu7iiyRjahx; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612522131149799 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 06:11:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94031ab01e6f5047dffc12f09ce69be2d51350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.16 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >> >> Main problem seems to be that with all the solid-state opportunities >> for various forms of "coherers," no one has >> picked up any signals of significance to reproduce even a smidgen of his effect. Why is that? >> >> Hal > > I think it is because if anyone picked up such a signal the > world would be overloaded with fried "Hams". > Moray's results under a thundercloud not withstanding. :-) > > Fred OTOH, there is a ubiquitous 120 volt per meter fair-weather field potential near earth ground that would put a 1,200 - 10,000 volt positive potential on the 10-80 ft height by 80-200 ft long above-ground horizontal antenna feeding a parallel LC tuning circuit ( a coil and a glass sheet? capacitor) in series with the variable resistance metal-filings "Coherer" which is in series with the incandescent filament light bulbs and/or an ~ 600 watt electric flatiron all with a very high coefficient of resistance temperature-current, leading into a good earth ground. IOW, this an open-ended transmission line (Line-To-Ground LC) that might by happenstance hit a resonance point that could set up some husky HF (Megahz?) oscillations off the ~26,000 coulomb excess electron charge of the earth, that could do something strange enough to vindicate Dr. Moray's 1909 - 1930s anachronistic sojourn into solid state physics. IOW II, you have a gigaohm/meter internal resistance battery D.C.-wise but, if RF oscillation sets in, it's a whole different ball game, and if perchance you succeed, the FCC will be knocking on you door shortly after. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
>>
>> Main problem seems to be that with all the solid-state opportunities
>> for various forms of "coherers," no one has
>> picked up any signals of significance to reproduce even a smidgen of his effect.  Why is that?
>>
>> Hal
>
> I think it is because if anyone picked up such a signal the
> world would be overloaded with fried "Hams".
> Moray's results under a thundercloud not withstanding.   :-)
>
> Fred
OTOH, there is a ubiquitous 120 volt per meter fair-weather field
potential near earth ground that would put a 1,200 - 10,000 volt
positive potential on the 10-80 ft height by 80-200 ft long above-ground
horizontal antenna feeding a parallel LC tuning
circuit ( a coil and a glass sheet? capacitor) in series with the
variable resistance metal-filings "Coherer" which is in series with
the incandescent filament light bulbs and/or an ~ 600 watt electric flatiron
all with a very high coefficient of resistance temperature-current,
leading into a good earth ground.
 
IOW, this an open-ended transmission line (Line-To-Ground LC)
that might by happenstance hit a resonance point that could set up
some husky HF (Megahz?) oscillations off the ~26,000 coulomb
excess electron charge of the earth, that could  do something strange
enough to vindicate Dr. Moray's 1909 - 1930s anachronistic
sojourn into solid state physics.
 
IOW II, you have a gigaohm/meter internal resistance battery D.C.-wise
but, if RF oscillation sets in, it's a whole different ball game, and if perchance
you succeed, the FCC will be knocking on you door shortly after.
 
Fred
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 07:22:27 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBMFMGns020885; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 07:22:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBMFMBeV020859; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 07:22:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 07:22:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: OtFdWyUVM1nkJMKxlbl3RzOqgb5ZZP522utOiveCI4Mw7ZUEvitX7070kRYfzefNrmeXz9ii_Jia2rvAh65ZoGsrrgCxeplzFvHlBUJVS4VO7HrLuqyEDf.VJI72bVNqlS6HvvvGwPz3j6B4kdL1yLreYKD.4ftuSglHIVOtdnu.YKFbvl.oCBAa0mKI Message-ID: <458BF80D.2040805 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:21:49 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: References: <4588114F.9000902 pacbell.net> <4589B284.8080504@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 12/20/06, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> Do you mean reduce resistance? > > For a given voltage the time for the current to rise to 67% of its > steady state value is given by L/R. Since I must achieve a certain > current to achieve a certain magnetic field strength of the > electromagnet, the rise time is essentially wasted duty cycle. If I > am duty cycle limited, I want to minimize the rise time. You're also throwing away a lot of energy by "charging" the coil fresh and then shutting it off again each time the motor goes around. Most of the energy you pump into the coil is presumably just wasted when you open the circuit a few milliseconds later. Is there any way you could "save" the energy? Maybe put a big cap in parallel with the coil, sized so the resonance frequency of the LC pair matches the motor's expected rotation rate. Then the external power to it which drove its oscillation would just have to make up for resistive losses and provide the energy to pull the rotor over the hump -- you wouldn't be paying for the energy to pump up the B field every time around. I don't know if that would actually be practical, though. > > The obvious way is to raise the voltage; but, I don't want to exceed > 0.5 times the break down voltage of the insulation. As Jones points > out, I could use a different core; but, the super permalloy (aka > spermalloy :-) being used is probably the best choice. > > I think we've decided that the least expensive approach for now is to > use solid CO2 to increase the duty cycle of the EM by pulling out any > heat generated by the coil. (BTW, Jones, virtually every local > supermarket sells dry ice these days.) Besides, the condensing water > vapor will give the whole test rig that mad scientist look. :-) > > Ironic that one of the goals of a magnetic motor is to reduce > greenhouse gas emissions, however. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 09:16:33 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBMHGQ4e008505; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 09:16:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBMHGKvC008441; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 09:16:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 09:16:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0d5601c725ec$f697edd0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <4588114F.9000902 pacbell.net> <4589B284.8080504@pobox.com> <458BF80D.2040805@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:16:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBMHGIqY008418 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: > > > Terry Blanton wrote: >> On 12/20/06, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> >>> Do you mean reduce resistance? >> >> For a given voltage the time for the current to rise to 67% of its >> steady state value is given by L/R. It's about 63% actually (1-exp(-1)), not that it makes much difference :) Michel > Since I must achieve a certain >> current to achieve a certain magnetic field strength of the >> electromagnet, the rise time is essentially wasted duty cycle. If I >> am duty cycle limited, I want to minimize the rise time. > You're also throwing away a lot of energy by "charging" the coil fresh > and then shutting it off again each time the motor goes around. Most of > the energy you pump into the coil is presumably just wasted when you > open the circuit a few milliseconds later. > > Is there any way you could "save" the energy? Maybe put a big cap in > parallel with the coil, sized so the resonance frequency of the LC pair > matches the motor's expected rotation rate. Then the external power to > it which drove its oscillation would just have to make up for resistive > losses and provide the energy to pull the rotor over the hump -- you > wouldn't be paying for the energy to pump up the B field every time around. > > I don't know if that would actually be practical, though. > >> >> The obvious way is to raise the voltage; but, I don't want to exceed >> 0.5 times the break down voltage of the insulation. As Jones points >> out, I could use a different core; but, the super permalloy (aka >> spermalloy :-) being used is probably the best choice. >> >> I think we've decided that the least expensive approach for now is to >> use solid CO2 to increase the duty cycle of the EM by pulling out any >> heat generated by the coil. (BTW, Jones, virtually every local >> supermarket sells dry ice these days.) Besides, the condensing water >> vapor will give the whole test rig that mad scientist look. :-) >> >> Ironic that one of the goals of a magnetic motor is to reduce >> greenhouse gas emissions, however. >> >> Terry >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 11:39:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBMJdAY5032046; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:39:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBMJd5p8031972; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:39:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:39:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 12:38:56 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Steorn motor Status: RO X-Status: I think I have figured out the gist of the Steorn motor from inferences derived from the voluminous postings on the Steorn forum. It's as if Steorn wants to get the information out, but in such a way that it doesn't invalidate any patents they are seeking. In any case I expect the full details to be released in less than 8 months. I sure hope it works. ( http://www.steorn.net http://www.steornwatch.com http://www.steornpower.com ) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn ) ( http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO2006035419&QPN=WO2006035419 ) I will describe several versions of how I think a fuelless engine could work for the record. These are constant torque motors, so, ironically, in their simplest embodiment, they would self destruct without a load. The highest power to weight ratio would therefore be a high RPM version. Steorn claims to have a 550 hp motor running. I'm not proficient in mechanical CAD programs, so, I'll give brief descriptions in English (I've got a copy of Alibre design and emachineshop.com; what do you think of those? What program do you use? ). Variation 1: Similar to a permanent magnet alternator, except there are two rows of 4-6 neodymium-iron-boron magnets on both the stator and rotor offset such that the magnets are rotationally staggered from one row to the other. In between the rotor and stator is a soft iron pipe with 1/4" thick walls that is the width of one magnet row. Here's the tricky part for a mechanical engineer. It must slide up and down alternating between the two rows, alternately shielding the magnetic fields from one row, then the other. I originally envisioned an alternating screw cam following a left and right helix machined into the rotor (similar to the way a fishing reel guides the line onto the spool ( Is there a name for that mechanism? ). Because of axial vibration, I think one would have two of these motors on the same axis 180o out of phase to cancel the inertial forces. This is well beyond my capability to design and build :-( . Variation 2: Reference Steorn's patent ( http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO2006035419&QPN=WO2006035419 ) Each stator magnet has it's own shield that moves axially with the appropriate timing. These Ne-Fe-Bo magnets are incredibly strong. In spite of all my care with the 1 cubic inch magnets, I'm often trying to unstick the tools on my workbench from them as they tend to get sucked in. When one gets stuck to my vice, it's quite a problem. I can pull it off with pliers, but then it's stuck to the pliers :-(. Given these forces measured in tons, I think a car alternator sized motor could produce ~50HP. Does anyone want to build this? Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US http://HoytStearns.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 12:55:20 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBMKtCQ9007449; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 12:55:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBMKtAw4007435; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 12:55:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 12:55:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=E/pKiBkzTm9k4pmAHKb2RYfsI68f49KsNFzeffNHm0RJXYRUNSth/APUJkEliwy0; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612522205355198 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 13:53:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a42bbb28d8d7116fde075ae172560fdb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.13 Resent-Message-ID: <8EpJsB.A.G0B.uYEjFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://f3wm.free.fr/sciences/jefimenko.html "ALTHOUGH no one can make a perpetual motion machine, anyone can tap the earth's electric field to run a homemade motor perpetually. The field exists in the atmosphere between the earth's surface and the ionosphere as an electric potential of about 360 000 volts. Estimates of the stored energy range from a million kilowatts to a billion kilowatts. Energy in this form cannot be drawn on directly for driving ordinary electric motors. Such motors develop mechanical force through the interaction of magnetic fields that are generated with high electric current at low voltage, as Michael Faraday demonstrated in 1821. The earth's field provides relatively low direct current at high voltage, which is ideal for operating electrostatic motors similar in principle to the machine invented by Benjamin Franklin in 1748. Motors of this type are based on the force of mutual attraction between unlike electric charges and the mutual repulsion of like charges. The energy of the field can be tapped with a simple antenna in the form of a vertical wire that carries one sharp point or more at its upper end. During fair weather the antenna will pick up potential at the rate of about 100 volts for each meter of height between the points and the earth's surface up to a few hundred feet. At higher altitudes the rate decreases. During local thunderstorms the pickup can amount to thousands of volts per foot. A meteorological hypothesis is that the field is maintained largely by thunderstorms, which pump electrons out of the air and inject them into the earth through bolts of lightning that continuously strike the surface at an average rate of 200 strokes per second. Why not tap the field to supplement conventional energy resources ? Several limitations must first be overcome. For example, a single sharp point can draw electric current from the surrounding air at a rate of only about a millionth of an ampere. An antenna consisting of a single point at the top of a 60-foot wire could be expected to deliver about a microampere at 2 000 volts; the rate is equivalent to .002 watt. A point-studded balloon tethered by a wire at an altitude of 75 meters might be expected to deliver .075 watt. A serious limitation appears as the altitude of the antenna exceeds about 200 meters. The correspondingly higher voltages become difficult to confine. At an altitude of 200 meters the antenna should pick up some 20 000 volts. Air conducts reasonably well at that potential. Although nature provides effective magnetic materials in substances such as iron, nickel and cobalt, which explains why the electric-power industry developed around Faraday's magnetic dynamo, no comparably effective insulating substances exist for isolating the high voltages that would be required for electrostatic machines of comparable power. Even so, electrostatic motors, which are far simpler to build than electromagnetic ones, may find applications in special environments such as those from which magnetism must be excluded or in providing low power to apparatus at remote, unmanned stations by tapping the earth's field. Apart from possible applications electrostatic motors make fascinating playthings. They have been studied extensively in recent years by Oleg D. Jefimenko and his graduate students at West Virginia University. The group has reconstructed models of Franklin's motors and developed advanced electrostatic machines of other types. Although Franklin left no drawing of his motor, his description of it in a letter to Peter Collinson, a Fellow of the Royal Society, enabled Jefimenko to reconstruct a working model [ see Fig 1 ]. Essentially the machine consists of a rimless wheel that turns in the horizontal plane on low-friction bearings." >> >> Main problem seems to be that with all the solid-state opportunities >> for various forms of "coherers," no one has >> picked up any signals of significance to reproduce even a smidgen of his effect. Why is that? >> >> Hal > > I think it is because if anyone picked up such a signal the > world would be overloaded with fried "Hams". > Moray's results under a thundercloud not withstanding. :-) > > Fred OTOH, there is a ubiquitous 120 volt per meter fair-weather field potential near earth ground that would put a 1,200 - 10,000 volt positive potential on the 10-80 ft height by 80-200 ft long above-ground horizontal antenna feeding a parallel LC tuning circuit ( a coil and a glass sheet? capacitor) in series with the variable resistance metal-filings "Coherer" which is in series with the incandescent filament light bulbs and/or an ~ 600 watt electric flatiron all with a very high coefficient of resistance temperature-current, leading into a good earth ground. IOW, this an open-ended transmission line (Line-To-Ground LC) that might by happenstance hit a resonance point that could set up some husky HF (Megahz?) oscillations off the ~26,000 coulomb excess electron charge of the earth, that could do something strange enough to vindicate Dr. Moray's 1909 - 1930s anachronistic sojourn into solid state physics. IOW II, you have a gigaohm/meter internal resistance battery D.C.-wise but, if RF oscillation sets in, it's a whole different ball game, and if perchance you succeed, the FCC will be knocking on you door shortly after. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
"ALTHOUGH no one can make a perpetual motion machine, anyone can tap the earth's electric field to run a homemade motor perpetually. The field exists in the atmosphere between the earth's surface and the ionosphere as an electric potential of about 360 000 volts. Estimates of the stored energy range from a million kilowatts to a billion kilowatts.

Energy in this form cannot be drawn on directly for driving ordinary electric motors. Such motors develop mechanical force through the interaction of magnetic fields that are generated with high electric current at low voltage, as Michael Faraday demonstrated in 1821. The earth's field provides relatively low direct current at high voltage, which is ideal for operating electrostatic motors similar in principle to the machine invented by Benjamin Franklin in 1748.

Motors of this type are based on the force of mutual attraction between unlike electric charges and the mutual repulsion of like charges. The energy of the field can be tapped with a simple antenna in the form of a vertical wire that carries one sharp point or more at its upper end. During fair weather the antenna will pick up potential at the rate of about 100 volts for each meter of height between the points and the earth's surface up to a few hundred feet. At higher altitudes the rate decreases. During local thunderstorms the pickup can amount to thousands of volts per foot. A meteorological hypothesis is that the field is maintained largely by thunderstorms, which pump electrons out of the air and inject them into the earth through bolts of lightning that continuously strike the surface at an average rate of 200 strokes per second.

Why not tap the field to supplement conventional energy resources ? Several limitations must first be overcome. For example, a single sharp point can draw electric current from the surrounding air at a rate of only about a millionth of an ampere. An antenna consisting of a single point at the top of a 60-foot wire could be expected to deliver about a microampere at 2 000 volts; the rate is equivalent to .002 watt. A point-studded balloon tethered by a wire at an altitude of 75 meters might be expected to deliver .075 watt. A serious limitation appears as the altitude of the antenna exceeds about 200 meters. The correspondingly higher voltages become difficult to confine.

At an altitude of 200 meters the antenna should pick up some 20 000 volts. Air conducts reasonably well at that potential. Although nature provides effective magnetic materials in substances such as iron, nickel and cobalt, which explains why the electric-power industry developed around Faraday's magnetic dynamo, no comparably effective insulating substances exist for isolating the high voltages that would be required for electrostatic machines of comparable power. Even so, electrostatic motors, which are far simpler to build than electromagnetic ones, may find applications in special environments such as those from which magnetism must be excluded or in providing low power to apparatus at remote, unmanned stations by tapping the earth's field.

Apart from possible applications electrostatic motors make fascinating playthings. They have been studied extensively in recent years by Oleg D. Jefimenko and his graduate students at West Virginia University. The group has reconstructed models of Franklin's motors and developed advanced electrostatic machines of other types.

Although Franklin left no drawing of his motor, his description of it in a letter to Peter Collinson, a Fellow of the Royal Society, enabled Jefimenko to reconstruct a working model [ see Fig 1 ]. Essentially the machine consists of a rimless wheel that turns in the horizontal plane on low-friction bearings."


>>
>> Main problem seems to be that with all the solid-state opportunities
>> for various forms of "coherers," no one has
>> picked up any signals of significance to reproduce even a smidgen of his effect.  Why is that?
>>
>> Hal
>
> I think it is because if anyone picked up such a signal the
> world would be overloaded with fried "Hams".
> Moray's results under a thundercloud not withstanding.   :-)
>
> Fred
OTOH, there is a ubiquitous 120 volt per meter fair-weather field
potential near earth ground that would put a 1,200 - 10,000 volt
positive potential on the 10-80 ft height by 80-200 ft long above-ground
horizontal antenna feeding a parallel LC tuning
circuit ( a coil and a glass sheet? capacitor) in series with the
variable resistance metal-filings "Coherer" which is in series with
the incandescent filament light bulbs and/or an ~ 600 watt electric flatiron
all with a very high coefficient of resistance temperature-current,
leading into a good earth ground.
 
IOW, this an open-ended transmission line (Line-To-Ground LC)
that might by happenstance hit a resonance point that could set up
some husky HF (Megahz?) oscillations off the ~26,000 coulomb
excess electron charge of the earth, that could  do something strange
enough to vindicate Dr. Moray's 1909 - 1930s anachronistic
sojourn into solid state physics.
 
IOW II, you have a gigaohm/meter internal resistance battery D.C.-wise
but, if RF oscillation sets in, it's a whole different ball game, and if perchance
you succeed, the FCC will be knocking on you door shortly after.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 14:07:03 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBMM6vPI008353; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:06:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBMM6jfi008306; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:06:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:06:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: FUy5gdEVM1kEB3ehn5lRZslAUg6ABg.ZAkBvC6LuiZG5lJYh98yL0S_o7nT5pZ5n9NsMNo3ho8.lSv8myK1MWLRzNeVbkuH4Bo0EiSoO9sLVlB3oKqsUrm0zXt1Qgb6.syKSU5igXhmw_AM- Message-ID: <458C56F2.2030107 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:06:42 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magmos, dipoles, and conservation of energy References: <45896316.6040204 pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45896316.6040204 pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > [ snip ] > > For electromagnets, as opposed to permanent (spin) dipoles, the force > is due to q(E+vxB) and the work done comes from the currents. There's > more to be said about that, however, and I will be writing up a > companion page on electromagnetic dipoles and their interactions with > each other and with permanent dipoles, in which I'll also say a little > more about the consequences of the force on a permanent dipole being > conservative. I finished the aforementioned rant on magmos (which I euphemistically referred to as a "page on electromagnetic dipoles and their interactions"...): http://www.physicsinsights.org/magnetic_motors_1.html And now I will put the sock back in and say no more along these lines. It is, after all, just a classical magnetostatic look at magmos, not even any QM employed; there are more things in heaven and earth, and all that, and all it shows, at most, is that certain aspects of magnetic motors are incompatible with one particular model of How Things Work. Merry Christmas to all ... and if the New Year brings free energy through Steorn's engine, I'll sing Halleluia just as happily as the next skeptic who was proved wrong. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 16:34:37 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBN0YVJu032334; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:34:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBN0YKlJ032267; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:34:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:34:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <003801c7262a$06117dc0$51037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]: The holiday season Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:33:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0034_01C725F7.BAABF590" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C725F7.BAABF590 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0035_01C725F7.BAAD7C30" ------=_NextPart_001_0035_01C725F7.BAAD7C30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, As we enter the holiday season, may all have a safe and joyful = celebration of Christmas. May the new year bring peace on earth and = goodwill toward man. I commend each of you for keeping the Vorts a respectful group and = interesting place to share ideas. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0035_01C725F7.BAAD7C30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
As we enter the holiday season, may all have a safe and joyful = celebration=20 of  Christmas. May the new year bring peace on earth and goodwill = toward=20 man.
 
I commend each of you for keeping the Vorts a respectful group and=20 interesting place to share ideas.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0035_01C725F7.BAAD7C30-- ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C725F7.BAABF590 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003301c7262a$0533ef00$51037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C725F7.BAABF590-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 16:53:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBN0rAuA010000; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:53:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBN0r4uJ009946; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:53:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:53:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Magmos, dipoles, and conservation of energy Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:52:46 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <458C56F2.2030107 pobox.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From Stephen A. Lawrence: > I finished the aforementioned rant on magmos (which I euphemistically > referred to as a "page on electromagnetic dipoles and their > interactions"...): > > http://www.physicsinsights.org/magnetic_motors_1.html > > And now I will put the sock back in and say no more along these lines. > It is, after all, just a classical magnetostatic look at magmos, not > even any QM employed; there are more things in heaven and earth, and all > that, and all it shows, at most, is that certain aspects of magnetic > motors are incompatible with one particular model of How Things Work. > > Merry Christmas to all ... and if the New Year brings free energy > through Steorn's engine, I'll sing Halleluia just as happily as the > next skeptic who was proved wrong. ...a Refreshing change fRom the Rhetoric of he-who-shall-Remain-nameless, an individual who was once descRibed in this discussion gRouP as being in love with the cleveRness of his own PRose. I Think the world needs more honorable skeptics like you, Stephen. May the coming year bring us all a few good surprises, myself included. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 17:55:02 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBN1sspt000950; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:54:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBN1srqP000936; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:54:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:54:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Y1f9OPEFIqTpzAeask6NhxiSm1/9EPOGGgiSwEP7RSVOENZ0UrTsaJjvpD0Dll5Mxj2wsJ+vX96+UOIQZ2yM354yh5PMi3ezu6JPuOyxBuYz0HuLfDVdekIVGaOYfi5cqVceYis6ndd2yjtho2AJhn6dIpKvaFGxkyuDskPfKsM= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:54:54 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <458BF80D.2040805 pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4588114F.9000902 pacbell.net> <4589B284.8080504 pobox.com> <458BF80D.2040805 pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/22/06, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Is there any way you could "save" the energy? Yes, with a shunt reverse biased diode and a large cap. It's called a "protection diode" in most relay circuits. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 18:56:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBN2qhrR019469; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:53:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBN2pLRW018316; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:51:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:51:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=Pk+QOqZb/wba18WXMnFnTZVqucby0JJ7fhNJH2DZUnCXi8Eh+8lZAtaDNfyhupG5; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <27170968.1166842218405.JavaMail.root elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:50:18 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8a05cca3a803c3848716501d48ff21b9a8483c75118a9a15a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.40 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday December 22, 2006 Status: RO X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Dec 22, 2006 3:31 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday December 22, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 22 Dec 06 Washington, DC 1. IMMACULATE CONCEPTION: NATURE FINDS A WAY TO GET THE JOB DONE. In the quaint euphemism of the Authorized Version of the Bible, no male had "known" Flora, a female Komodo dragon, before she laid her clutch of 8 eggs at the Chester Zoo in England. The genetics of self-fertilization in lizards dictates that the hatchlings will all be male. Claims of human parthenogenesis are frequently advanced at this time of year, but confirmation has been lacking. By some weird coincidence the eggs are expected to hatch about Christmas. 2. EVOLUTION OF COBB COUNTY: WARNING STICKERS ARE GONE FOR GOOD. Five years ago the school board in Cobb County, GA put stickers on science textbooks warning that "evolution is just a theory," http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN02/wn062702.html . The legal battle opposing the stickers was led by Americans United for Separation Church and State, with the help of the same team that defeated the Philistines last year in Dover, PA. In a consent decree signed on Tuesday, the School Board agreed never to use a similar sticker or undermine the teaching of evolution in science class. In a separate agreement the School District agreed to pay a substantial portion of the plaintiff's legal fees. That more than anything else will discourage similar actions elsewhere. 3. LEAKS: GOVERNMENT BACKS DOWN FROM MISUSE OF SUBPOENA POWER. Last week WN commented on the government's curious use of a grand jury subpoena to force the ACLU to turn over a classified document. The subpoena has since been withdrawn and the totally innocuous document declassified. What's not a secret is that the overwhelming use of classification is to hide mistakes. Secrets are as incompatible with democracy as they are with science. 4. ANTHRAX VACCINE: GOVERNMENT CANCELS ITS CONTRACT WITH VACGEN. WN wagered last week that the government would bail VacGen out of its $877M contract to supply 75 million doses of a modern anthrax vaccine. Instead, they terminated it. The FDA put clinical trials on hold over concerns about the vaccine's stability. This was largest component of the Bush Administration's $5.6B Project BioShield to build a stockpile of modern vaccines and drugs to counter a terrorist attack, which is now in a shambles. 5. FLOODS: AUTOMATIC DECLASSIFICATION OF 25 YEAR-OLD SECRETS. Midnight on Dec. 31 hundreds of millions of documents will be automatically declassified under a law President Clinton signed. The Everest of classified documents grew faster under Bush who set out to reclassify everything that had been declassified. Some are surprised that Bush didn't use his national security powers to block the law. No need. Mt. Classified has become unscalable. It passed the critical point beyond which there is no mathematical possibility of extracting information. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 02:09:24 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBNA9Ils003671; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 02:09:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBNA9GLe003665; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 02:09:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 02:09:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=SD70ckT3aMPAgW2myPjHHnoQxakzu0YqHICpJTk37wBdMF7NjFPIavtsy8OjH4FG; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006126231095507 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:09:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ffb271c3f339d5d2fa46646c8808788d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.164 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Free Energy in Dr. Moray's backyard? > > IOW, this an open-ended transmission line (Line-To-Ground LC) > that might by happenstance hit a resonance point that could set up > some husky HF (Megahz?) oscillations off the ~26,000 coulomb > excess electron charge of the earth, that could do something strange > enough to vindicate Dr. Moray's 1909 - 1930s anachronistic > sojourn into solid state physics. > > IOW II, you have a gigaohm/meter internal resistance battery D.C.-wise > but, if RF oscillation sets in, it's a whole different ball game, and if.... > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telluric_current "Telluric currents are phenomena observed in the Earth's crust and mantle. In September of 1862, an experiment to specifically address Earth currents was carried out in the Munich Alps (Lamont, 1862). The currents are induced by changes in the outer part of the Earth's magnetic field, which are usually caused by interactions between the solar wind and the ionosphere. Utilization of these electromagnetic effects has been reported in the United States as far back as 1859. United States telegraph lines were operated by such natural induced currents (during geomagnetic disturbances). Tellurics also result from thunderstorms. Telluric currents flow in the surface layers of the earth. The electric potential on the Earth's surface can be measured at different points, enabling us to calculate the magnitudes and directions of the telluric currents and thence the Earth's conductance. Telluric currents will move between each half of the terrestrial globe at all times. Telluric currents move equator-ward (daytime) and pole-ward (nighttime)." "The field varies in time and over the frequency range 0.001 to 5 Hz (Krasnogorskaja & Remizov, 1975). Electric potential gradients caused by telluric currents are of the order of 0.2 to 1000 volts per metre. (Krasnogorskaja and Remizov (1975); Vanjan (1975)). At any location, the current density is a direct function of the interhemispheric currents and their potential gradients. It has been estimated that telluric currents overall during twelve hours in one hemisphere are in range of 100 to 1000 amperes. This intensity of telluric currents is sufficient to drive the air movements that create atmospheric electricity, from the global fair weather charge accumulator to thunderstorm bases." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_battery "One of the earliest examples of an earth battery was built by Alexander Bain in 1841 in order to drive a prime mover. Bain buried plates of zinc and copper in the ground about one meter apart and used the resulting voltage, of about one volt, to operate a clock. Carl Friedrich Gauss, who had researched the Earth's magnetic field, and Karl A. von Steinheil, who built one of the first electric clocks and developed the idea of an "Earth return" or "ground return", had previously investigated such devices. Lord Kelvin developed a "sea battery" in the latter end of the 1800s." "Daniel Drawbaugh received U.S. Patent 211322 for an Earth battery for electric clocks (with several improvements in the art of Earth batteries). Another early patent was obtained by Emil Jahr U.S. Patent 690151 Method of utilizing electrical Earth currents). In 1875, James C. Bryan received U.S. Patent 160152 for his Earth Battery. In 1885, George Dieckmann, received US patent U.S. Patent 329724 for his Electric Earth battery. In 1898, Nathan Stubblefield received U.S. Patent 600457 for his electrolytic coil battery, which was a combination of an earth battery and a solenoid. The Earth battery, in general, generated power for early telegraph transmissions and formed part of a tuned circuit that amplified the signalling voltage over long distances." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Free Energy in Dr. Moray's backyard?
>
> IOW, this an open-ended transmission line (Line-To-Ground LC)
> that might by happenstance hit a resonance point that could set up
> some husky HF (Megahz?) oscillations off the ~26,000 coulomb
> excess electron charge of the earth, that could  do something strange
> enough to vindicate Dr. Moray's 1909 - 1930s anachronistic
> sojourn into solid state physics.
>
> IOW II, you have a gigaohm/meter internal resistance battery D.C.-wise
> but, if RF oscillation sets in, it's a whole different ball game, and if....
>
 
 
"Telluric currents are phenomena observed in the Earth's crust and mantle. In September of 1862, an experiment to specifically address Earth currents was carried out in the Munich Alps (Lamont, 1862). The currents are induced by changes in the outer part of the Earth's magnetic field, which are usually caused by interactions between the solar wind and the ionosphere. Utilization of these electromagnetic effects has been reported in the United States as far back as 1859. United States telegraph lines were operated by such natural induced currents (during geomagnetic disturbances). Tellurics also result from thunderstorms. Telluric currents flow in the surface layers of the earth. The electric potential on the Earth's surface can be measured at different points, enabling us to calculate the magnitudes and directions of the telluric currents and thence the Earth's conductance. Telluric currents will move between each half of the terrestrial globe at all times. Telluric currents move equator-wa! rd (dayt ime) and pole-ward (nighttime)."
 
"The field varies in time and over the frequency range 0.001 to 5 Hz (Krasnogorskaja & Remizov, 1975). Electric potential gradients caused by telluric currents are of the order of 0.2 to 1000 volts per metre. (Krasnogorskaja and Remizov (1975); Vanjan (1975)). At any location, the current density is a direct function of the interhemispheric currents and their potential gradients. It has been estimated that telluric currents overall during twelve hours in one hemisphere are in range of 100 to 1000 amperes. This intensity of telluric currents is sufficient to drive the air movements that create atmospheric electricity, from the global fair weather charge accumulator to thunderstorm bases."
 
 

"One of the earliest examples of an earth battery was built by Alexander Bain in 1841 in order to drive a prime mover. Bain buried plates of zinc and copper in the ground about one meter apart and used the resulting voltage, of about one volt, to operate a clock. Carl Friedrich Gauss, who had researched the Earth's magnetic field, and Karl A. von Steinheil, who built one of the first electric clocks and developed the idea of an "Earth return" or "ground ! return", had previously investigated such devices. Lord Kelvin developed a "sea battery" in the latter end of the 1800s."

"Daniel Drawbaugh received U.S. Patent 211322  for an Earth battery for electric clocks (with several improvements in the art of Earth batteries). Another early patent was obtained by Emil Jahr U.S. Patent 690151  Method of utilizing electrical Earth currents). In 1875, James C. Bryan received U.S. Patent 160152  for his Earth Battery. In 1885, George Dieckmann, received US patent U.S. Patent 329724  for his Electric Earth battery. In 1898, Nathan Stubblefield received U.S. Patent 600457  for his electrolytic coil battery, which was a combination of an earth battery and a solenoid. The Earth battery, in general, generated power for early telegraph transmissions and formed part of a tuned circuit that amplified the signalling voltage over long distances."

 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 02:45:14 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBNAj0GG012926; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 02:45:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBNAivOs012897; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 02:44:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 02:44:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=qN+cwIQQAq1W1X7NK9Mz1aDHe8VgSM+2MXWlIqR80i/kMInNfxEp4UUyqn4qZNTd4z83PGaQwUzXpVWDGBDNbt1utIyOAnrgrJMhkKxRLnfZiM2RHMz/yhv/FrvvDWzJhgdDLUzMP474R84XUMIy76sTK583QeruUiHYsHF4eKk= Message-ID: <538fa8f10612230244g7b5b7bb0p9bc6afd98f406610 mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 12:44:51 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: fjsparber earthlink.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device In-Reply-To: <410-22006126231095507 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_60438_12744868.1166870691265" References: <410-22006126231095507 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_60438_12744868.1166870691265 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline John Bedini has done a lot of studying of Nathan Stubblefield's radio and earth battery material.. i listened to an interview of Bedini on Jeff Rense's show, and wrote these things down: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Nathan_Stubblefield .. Notes from the radioshows: Magnetricity, instead of electricity, is what powers our electric systems. Two magnetic currents Perfectly audible frequencies, even 10 miles away, tested by John Bedini Bedini was able to reproduce, 2 rods in the river, then at the mountain, 1 probe into the tree, one in the earth = crystal clear sound. -> Earth batteries do not produce electricity, but instead tap into the earth's magnetic field, draw it out for use. So you put plates into the earth, to draw electricity out of the earth's magnetic field. -> Nathan Stubblefield took out a patent for the earth-battery, except, the patent-office demanded he call it "Earth Battery", Stubblefield wanted to call it "Electro-magnetic Induction Amplifier". -> Stubblefield's "Earth Battery" taps what electricity is not, the Battery taps the magnetic current running through Planet Earth. This energy field is not just here around the earth, it is virtually everywhere in the universe - it is the universe, it is the energy field that is the universe. -> The Earth is a incredible *conductor*, a living organism of *energy*, in several ways. -> Stubblefield tapped the Ground-permeating Natural Wave, which are Magnetic Currents. -> The Earth has a Magnetic Current, which has NO EMF, no electricity involved, it is a clear channel, these *natural electrical waves*, act as carriers for the human voice. Bedini: Two highly polished metal mirrors, which faced eachother, radiate a very great heat in rippling waves. If you take a piece of *copper*, and you *polish* it highly and then you take a piece of *steel*, and you polish it *highly*, and you face these two things together, so that there is a *doppler-shift* in the light, you get * heat*, you can actually feel it. So there is no reason, why we can't pull the energy right from the earth, and heat the house. Two rods, stuck in the ground. Nathan Stubblefield uses *earth magnetic current*, this is *not* current as we know it, electricity is a *waste by-product*, of this magnetic current. hope this helps :) On 12/23/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Free Energy in Dr. Moray's backyard? > > > > IOW, this an open-ended transmission line (Line-To-Ground LC) > > that might by happenstance hit a resonance point that could set up > > some husky HF (Megahz?) oscillations off the ~26,000 coulomb > > excess electron charge of the earth, that could do something strange > > enough to vindicate Dr. Moray's 1909 - 1930s anachronistic > > sojourn into solid state physics. > > > > IOW II, you have a gigaohm/meter internal resistance battery D.C.-wise > > but, if RF oscillation sets in, it's a whole different ball game, and > if.... > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telluric_current > > "Telluric currents are phenomena observed in the Earth's crustand > mantle. > In September of 1862, an experiment to specifically address Earth currents > was carried out in the Munich Alps (Lamont, 1862). The currents are induced > by changes in the outer part of the Earth's magnetic field, > which are usually caused by interactions between the solar windand the > ionosphere. Utilization of these electromagnetic effects has been reported > in the United States as far back as 1859. United States telegraph lines were > operated by such natural induced currents (during geomagnetic disturbances). > Tellurics also result from thunderstorms. > Telluric currents flow in the surface layers of the earth. The electric > potential on the Earth's surface can be measured at different points, > enabling us to calculate the magnitudes and directions of the telluric > currents and thence the Earth's conductance. > Telluric currents will move between each half of the ter! restrial globe at > all times. Telluric currents move equator-wa! rd (dayt ime) and pole-ward > (nighttime)." > > "The field varies in time and over the frequency range 0.001 to 5 Hz > (Krasnogorskaja & Remizov, 1975). Electric potential gradients caused by > telluric currents are of the order of 0.2 to 1000 voltsper > metre . > (Krasnogorskaja and Remizov (1975); Vanjan (1975)). At any location, the current > densityis a direct function of the interhemispheric currents and their potential > gradients. > It has been estimated that telluric! currents overall during twelve hours in > one hemisphere are in range of 100 to 1000 amperes. > This intensity of telluric currents is sufficient to drive the air movements > that create atmospheric electricity, > from the global fair weather charge accumulator to thunderstorm bases." > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_battery > > > "One of the earliest examples of an earth battery was built by Alexander > Bain in > 1841 in order to > drive a prime mover. > Bain buried plates of zincand copper in the > ground about one > meter apart and > used the re! sulting voltage, of about one volt, to operate a clock. Carl > Friedrich Gauss, > who had researched the Earth's magnetic field, > and Karl A. von Steinheil, > who built one of the first electric clocks and developed the idea of an "Earth > return" > or "ground ! return", > had previously investigated such devices. Lord Kelvindeveloped a "sea battery" in the latter end of the 1800s." > > "Daniel Drawbaughreceived U.S. > Patent 211322 > for an Earth > battery for electric clocks (with several improvements in the art of Earth > batteries). Another early patent was obtained by Emil Jahr! U.S. > Patent 690151 > *Method of > utilizing electrical Earth currents*). In 1875, > James C. Bryanreceived U.S. > Patent 160152 > for his *Earth > Battery*. In 1885 , George > Dieckmann, > received US patent U.S. Patent 329724 > for his *Electric > Earth battery*. In 1898, > Nathan Stubblefieldreceived U.S. > Patent 600457 > for his > electrolytic coil battery, which was a combination of an earth battery and a > solenoid . > The Earth battery, in general, generated power for early telegraph > transmissions and formed part of a tuned circuitthat amplified the signalling voltage over long distances." > > ------=_Part_60438_12744868.1166870691265 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline John Bedini has done a lot of studying of Nathan Stubblefield's  radio and earth battery material.. i listened to an interview of Bedini  on Jeff Rense's show, and wrote these things down:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Nathan_Stubblefield ..

Notes from the radioshows:
Magnetricity, instead of electricity, is what powers our electric systems.
Two magnetic currents
Perfectly audible frequencies, even 10 miles away, tested by John Bedini
Bedini was able to reproduce, 2 rods in the river, then at the mountain, 1 probe into the tree, one in the earth = crystal clear sound.
-> Earth batteries do not produce electricity, but instead tap into the earth's magnetic field, draw it out for use. So you put plates into the earth, to draw electricity out of the earth's magnetic field.
-> Nathan Stubblefield took out a patent for the earth-battery, except, the patent-office demanded he call it "Earth Battery", Stubblefield wanted to call it "Electro-magnetic Induction Amplifier".
-> Stubblefield's "Earth Battery" taps what electricity is not, the Battery taps the magnetic current running through Planet Earth.
This energy field is not just here around the earth, it is virtually everywhere in the universe - it is the universe, it is the energy field that is the universe.
-> The Earth is a incredible conductor, a living organism of energy, in several ways.
-> Stubblefield tapped the Ground-permeating Natural Wave, which are Magnetic Currents.
-> The Earth has a Magnetic Current, which has NO EMF, no electricity involved, it is a clear channel, these natural electrical waves, act as carriers for the human voice.
Bedini: Two highly polished metal mirrors, which faced eachother, radiate a very great heat in rippling waves.
If you take a piece of copper, and you polish it highly and then you take a piece of steel, and you polish it highly, and you face these two things together, so that there is a doppler-shift in the light, you get heat, you can actually feel it. So there is no reason, why we can't pull the energy right from the earth, and heat the house.

Two rods, stuck in the ground.
Nathan Stubblefield uses earth magnetic current, this is not current as we know it, electricity is a waste by-product, of this magnetic current.


hope this helps :)



On 12/23/06, Frederick Sparber <fjsparber@earthlink.net> wrote:
Free Energy in Dr. Moray's backyard?
>
> IOW, this an open-ended transmission line (Line-To-Ground LC)
> that might by happenstance hit a resonance point that could set up
> some husky HF (Megahz?) oscillations off the ~26,000 coulomb
> excess electron charge of the earth, that could  do something strange
> enough to vindicate Dr. Moray's 1909 - 1930s anachronistic
> sojourn into solid state physics.
>
> IOW II, you have a gigaohm/meter internal resistance battery D.C.-wise
> but, if RF oscillation sets in, it's a whole different ball game, and if....
>
 
 
"Telluric currents are phenomena observed in the Earth's crust and mantle. In September of 1862, an experiment to specifically address Earth currents was carried out in the Munich Alps (Lamont, 1862). The currents are induced by changes in the outer part of the Earth's magnetic field , which are usually caused by interactions between the solar wind and the ionosphere. Utilization of these electromagnetic effects has been reported in the United States as far back as 1859. United States telegraph lines were operated by such natural induced currents (during geomagnetic disturbances). Tellurics also result from thunderstorms . Telluric currents flow in the surface layers of the earth. The electric potential on the Earth's surface can be measured at different points, enabling us to calculate the magnitudes and directions of the telluric currents and thence the Earth's conductance . Telluric currents will move between each half of the ter! restrial globe at all times. Telluric currents move equator-wa! rd (dayt ime) and pole-ward (nighttime)."
 
"The field varies in time and over the frequency range 0.001 to 5 Hz (Krasnogorskaja & Remizov, 1975). Electric potential gradients caused by telluric currents are of the order of 0.2 to 1000 volts per metre. (Krasnogorskaja and Remizov (1975); Vanjan (1975)). At any location, the current density is a direct function of the interhemispheric currents and their potential gradients. It has been estimated that telluric! currents overall during twelve hours in one hemisphere are in range of 100 to 1000 amperes. This intensity of telluric currents is sufficient to drive the air movements that create atmospheric electricity, from the global fair weather charge accumulator to thunderstorm bases."
 
 

"One of the earliest examples of an earth battery was built by Alexander Bain in 1841 in order to drive a prime mover. Bain buried plates of zinc and copper in the ground about one meter apart and used the re! sulting voltage, of about one volt, to operate a clock. Carl Friedrich Gauss, who had researched the Earth's magnetic field, and Karl A. von Steinheil, who built one of the first electric clocks and developed the idea of an " Earth return" or " ground ! return", had previously investigated such devices. Lord Kelvin developed a "sea battery" in the latter end of the 1800s."

" Daniel Drawbaugh received U.S. Patent 211322   for an Earth battery for electric clocks (with several improvements in the art of Earth batteries). Another early patent was obtained by Emil Jahr ! U.S. Patent 690151   Method of utilizing electrical Earth currents). In 1875, James C. Bryan received U.S. Patent 160152   for his Earth Battery. In 1885, George Dieckmann, received US patent U.S. Patent 329724   for his Electric Earth battery. In 1898, Nathan Stubblefield received U.S. Patent 600457   for his electrolytic coil battery, which was a combination of an earth battery and a solenoid. The Earth battery, in general, generated power for early telegraph transmissions and formed part of a tuned circuit that amplified the signalling voltage over long distances."

 

------=_Part_60438_12744868.1166870691265-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 03:00:06 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBNAxclm020164; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 02:59:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBNAxZUB020123; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 02:59:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 02:59:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0dc001c72681$a2d4cc00$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22006126231095507 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 12:00:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBNAxWsJ020094 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred wrote: > Bain buried plates of zinc and copper in the ground about one meter apart and > used the resulting voltage, of about one volt, to operate a clock. This looks like a galvanic cell to me, with the earth acting as a porous electrolyte reservoir. A ZnCu cell has a 1.1V voltage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_cell In which case the energy comes from the corroding electrode (zinc plate) I am afraid. It would have to work with identical metals to make sure the energy is not of chemical origin. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device > Free Energy in Dr. Moray's backyard? >> >> IOW, this an open-ended transmission line (Line-To-Ground LC) >> that might by happenstance hit a resonance point that could set up >> some husky HF (Megahz?) oscillations off the ~26,000 coulomb >> excess electron charge of the earth, that could do something strange >> enough to vindicate Dr. Moray's 1909 - 1930s anachronistic >> sojourn into solid state physics. >> >> IOW II, you have a gigaohm/meter internal resistance battery D.C.-wise >> but, if RF oscillation sets in, it's a whole different ball game, and if.... >> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telluric_current > > "Telluric currents are phenomena observed in the Earth's crust and mantle. In September of 1862, an experiment to specifically address Earth currents was carried out in the Munich Alps (Lamont, 1862). The currents are induced by changes in the outer part of the Earth's magnetic field, which are usually caused by interactions between the solar wind and the ionosphere. Utilization of these electromagnetic effects has been reported in the United States as far back as 1859. United States telegraph lines were operated by such natural induced currents (during geomagnetic disturbances). Tellurics also result from thunderstorms. Telluric currents flow in the surface layers of the earth. The electric potential on the Earth's surface can be measured at different points, enabling us to calculate the magnitudes and directions of the telluric currents and thence the Earth's conductance. Telluric currents will move between each half of the terrestrial globe at all times. Telluric currents! > move equator-ward (daytime) and pole-ward (nighttime)." > > "The field varies in time and over the frequency range 0.001 to 5 Hz (Krasnogorskaja & Remizov, 1975). Electric potential gradients caused by telluric currents are of the order of 0.2 to 1000 volts per metre. (Krasnogorskaja and Remizov (1975); Vanjan (1975)). At any location, the current density is a direct function of the interhemispheric currents and their potential gradients. It has been estimated that telluric currents overall during twelve hours in one hemisphere are in range of 100 to 1000 amperes. This intensity of telluric currents is sufficient to drive the air movements that create atmospheric electricity, from the global fair weather charge accumulator to thunderstorm bases." > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_battery > > "One of the earliest examples of an earth battery was built by Alexander Bain in 1841 in order to drive a prime mover. Bain buried plates of zinc and copper in the ground about one meter apart and used the resulting voltage, of about one volt, to operate a clock. Carl Friedrich Gauss, who had researched the Earth's magnetic field, and Karl A. von Steinheil, who built one of the first electric clocks and developed the idea of an "Earth return" or "ground return", had previously investigated such devices. Lord Kelvin developed a "sea battery" in the latter end of the 1800s." > "Daniel Drawbaugh received U.S. Patent 211322 for an Earth battery for electric clocks (with several improvements in the art of Earth batteries). Another early patent was obtained by Emil Jahr U.S. Patent 690151 Method of utilizing electrical Earth currents). In 1875, James C. Bryan received U.S. Patent 160152 for his Earth Battery. In 1885, George Dieckmann, received US patent U.S. Patent 329724 for his Electric Earth battery. In 1898, Nathan Stubblefield received U.S. Patent 600457 for his electrolytic coil battery, which was a combination of an earth battery and a solenoid. The Earth battery, in general, generated power for early telegraph transmissions and formed part of a tuned circuit that amplified the signalling voltage over long distances." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 03:07:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBNB6kUc032514; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:06:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBNB6iaN032467; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:06:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:06:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0dc101c72682$b1ca2f10$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200612212121328423 earthlink.net> <002e01c71f61$4523eea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7jn9o2ddatagb3h8jomdkhu34dfb48lamh@4ax.com> <06c001c721c2$e9395850$3800a8c0@zothan> <7usbo21j17p26b0mh6uhbksaq1ht5tgqn9@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 12:08:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBNB6bFB032351 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 3:05 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff > In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:05:29 +0100: > Hi, > [snip] >>It's OK Robin, it happens to me all the time :) >>Your other point is valid though, we don't know how long it takes the Sun to charge this capacitor. But it's unlikely it charges it in one two millionth of a day = 43 ms, which would be required for it to provide the world's daily energy consumption :/ >> >>Michel > If the fair weather current is 1E-12 amps per square meter, then the total > current for the entire planet is 510 A. Multiplying this by 300000 V gives a > power of 153 MW - not much to run our civilization on. > BTW the fair weather current would charge the Earth capacitor in 55.7 seconds. Discharge you mean, but this certainly means the sun provides an equal charging current to compensate for the leak. > > BTW2 if we were to drain this power for other uses, it would not be available > for lightning, which is intimately involved with rainfall. The consequences for > global rainfall could be catastrophic. ...or beneficial maybe, if suppression of lightning had the effect of favoring gentle rainfall and suppressing brutal flood-inducing rainstorms, not to mention the damages caused by lightning itself. In which case one would have to find a way to drain the capacitor, either permanently or on demand, which doesn't seem obvious. Tethered balloon-borne "lightning rods" maybe? (wouldn't require wind unlike Benjamin Franklin's kite) Michel > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 03:22:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBNBM6co015685; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:22:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBNBM3hn015640; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:22:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:22:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=V7dzt8dkVW4r/oF/hcDJ3u6s5Ud/FmdKe0LJFmEthQDDsc0N1QVRL0DIVHR46MIq; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612623112140799 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 04:21:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e4b511a23c91c9b9040c8c7a6f2e6fa7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.150 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Esa, Some of this article talks about a "Black Box" that Moray used that could pick up conversations from miles away. The earth around Moray's experiments was filled with ground currents from Spark Transmitter Wireless Telegraphy from around the globe which could trigger the HF oscillations on his antenna-earth ground energy device too. Fred http://www.rexresearch.com/moray2/morayrer.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Esa Ruoho To: fjsparber earthlink.net;vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 12/23/2006 3:45:32 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device John Bedini has done a lot of studying of Nathan Stubblefield's radio and earth battery material.. i listened to an interview of Bedini on Jeff Rense's show, and wrote these things down: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Nathan_Stubblefield .. Notes from the radioshows: Magnetricity, instead of electricity, is what powers our electric systems. Two magnetic currents Perfectly audible frequencies, even 10 miles away, tested by John Bedini Bedini was able to reproduce, 2 rods in the river, then at the mountain, 1 probe into the tree, one in the earth = crystal clear sound. -> Earth batteries do not produce electricity, but instead tap into the earth's magnetic field, draw it out for use. So you put plates into the earth, to draw electricity out of the earth's magnetic field. -> Nathan Stubblefield took out a patent for the earth-battery, except, the patent-office demanded he call it "Earth Battery", Stubblefield wanted to call it "Electro-magnetic Induction Amplifier". -> Stubblefield's "Earth Battery" taps what electricity is not, the Battery taps the magnetic current running through Planet Earth. This energy field is not just here around the earth, it is virtually everywhere in the universe - it is the universe, it is the energy field that is the universe. -> The Earth is a incredible conductor, a living organism of energy, in several ways. -> Stubblefield tapped the Ground-permeating Natural Wave, which are Magnetic Currents. -> The Earth has a Magnetic Current, which has NO EMF, no electricity involved, it is a clear channel, these natural electrical waves, act as carriers for the human voice. Bedini: Two highly polished metal mirrors, which faced eachother, radiate a very great heat in rippling waves. If you take a piece of copper, and you polish it highly and then you take a piece of steel, and you polish it highly, and you face these two things together, so that there is a doppler-shift in the light, you get heat, you can actually feel it. So there is no reason, why we can't pull the energy right from the earth, and heat the house. Two rods, stuck in the ground. Nathan Stubblefield uses earth magnetic current, this is not current as we know it, electricity is a waste by-product, of this magnetic current. hope this helps :) On 12/23/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: Free Energy in Dr. Moray's backyard? > > IOW, this an open-ended transmission line (Line-To-Ground LC) > that might by happenstance hit a resonance point that could set up > some husky HF (Megahz?) oscillations off the ~26,000 coulomb > excess electron charge of the earth, that could do something strange > enough to vindicate Dr. Moray's 1909 - 1930s anachronistic > sojourn into solid state physics. > > IOW II, you have a gigaohm/meter internal resistance battery D.C.-wise > but, if RF oscillation sets in, it's a whole different ball game, and if.... > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telluric_current "Telluric currents are phenomena observed in the Earth's crust and mantle. In September of 1862, an experiment to specifically address Earth currents was carried out in the Munich Alps (Lamont, 1862). The currents are induced by changes in the outer part of the Earth's magnetic field , which are usually caused by interactions between the solar wind and the ionosphere. Utilization of these electromagnetic effects has been reported in the United States as far back as 1859. United States telegraph lines were operated by such natural induced currents (during geomagnetic disturbances). Tellurics also result from thunderstorms . Telluric currents flow in the surface layers of the earth. The electric potential on the Earth's surface can be measured at different points, enabling us to calculate the magnitudes and directions of the telluric currents and thence the Earth's conductance . Telluric currents will move between each half of the ter! restrial globe at all times. Telluric currents move equator-wa! rd (dayt ime) and pole-ward (nighttime)." "The field varies in time and over the frequency range 0.001 to 5 Hz (Krasnogorskaja & Remizov, 1975). Electric potential gradients caused by telluric currents are of the order of 0.2 to 1000 volts per metre. (Krasnogorskaja and Remizov (1975); Vanjan (1975)). At any location, the current density is a direct function of the interhemispheric currents and their potential gradients. It has been estimated that telluric! currents overall during twelve hours in one hemisphere are in range of 100 to 1000 amperes. This intensity of telluric currents is sufficient to drive the air movements that create atmospheric electricity, from the global fair weather charge accumulator to thunderstorm bases." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_battery "One of the earliest examples of an earth battery was built by Alexander Bain in 1841 in order to drive a prime mover. Bain buried plates of zinc and copper in the ground about one meter apart and used the re! sulting voltage, of about one volt, to operate a clock. Carl Friedrich Gauss, who had researched the Earth's magnetic field, and Karl A. von Steinheil, who built one of the first electric clocks and developed the idea of an " Earth return" or " ground ! return", had previously investigated such devices. Lord Kelvin developed a "sea battery" in the latter end of the 1800s." " Daniel Drawbaugh received U.S. Patent 211322 for an Earth battery for electric clocks (with several improvements in the art of Earth batteries). Another early patent was obtained by Emil Jahr ! U.S. Patent 690151 Method of utilizing electrical Earth currents). In 1875, James C. Bryan received U.S. Patent 160152 for his Earth Battery. In 1885, George Dieckmann, received US patent U.S. Patent 329724 for his Electric Earth battery. In 1898, Nathan Stubblefield received U.S. Patent 600457 for his electrolytic coil battery, which was a combination of an earth battery and a solenoid. The Earth battery, in general, generated power for early telegraph transmissions and formed part of a tuned circuit that amplified the signalling voltage over long distances." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Hi Esa,
 
Some of this article talks about a "Black Box" that Moray
used that could pick up conversations from miles away.
 
The earth around Moray's experiments was filled with
ground currents from Spark Transmitter Wireless Telegraphy
from around the globe which could trigger the HF oscillations
on his antenna-earth ground energy device too.
 
Fred
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Esa Ruoho
Sent: 12/23/2006 3:45:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device

John Bedini has done a lot of studying of Nathan Stubblefield's  radio and earth battery material.. i listened to an interview of Bedini  on Jeff Rense's show, and wrote these things down:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Nathan_Stubblefield ..

Notes from the radioshows:
Magnetricity, instead of electricity, is what powers our electric systems.
Two magnetic currents
Perfectly audible frequencies, even 10 miles away, tested by John Bedini
Bedini was able to reproduce, 2 rods in the river, then at the mountain, 1 probe into the tree, one in the earth = crystal clear sound.
-> Earth batteries do not produce electricity, but instead tap into the earth's magnetic field, draw it out for use. So you put plates into the earth, to draw electricity out of the earth's magnetic field.
-> Nathan Stubblefield took out a patent for the earth-battery, except, the patent-office demanded he call it "Earth Battery", Stubblefield wanted to call it "Electro-magnetic Induction Amplifier".
-> Stubblefield's "Earth Battery" taps what electricity is not, the Battery taps the magnetic current running through Planet Earth.
This energy field is not just here around the earth, it is virtually everywhere in the universe - it is the universe, it is the energy field that is the universe.
-> The Earth is a incredible conductor, a living organism of energy, in several ways.
-> Stubblefield tapped the Ground-permeating Natural Wave, which are Magnetic Currents.
-> The Earth has a Magnetic Current, which has NO EMF, no electricity involved, it is a clear channel, these natural electrical waves, act as carriers for the human voice.
Bedini: Two highly polished metal mirrors, which faced eachother, radiate a very great heat in rippling waves.
If you take a piece of copper, and you polish it highly and then you take a piece of steel, and you polish it highly, and you face these two things together, so that there is a doppler-shift in the light, you get heat, you can actually feel it. So there is no reason, why we can't pull the energy right from the earth, and heat the house.

Two rods, stuck in the ground.
Nathan Stubblefield uses earth magnetic current, this is not current as we know it, electricity is a waste by-product, of this magnetic current.


hope this helps :)



On 12/23/06, Frederick Sparber <fjsparber@earthlink.net> wrote:
Free Energy in Dr. Moray's backyard?
>
> IOW, this an open-ended transmission line (Line-To-Ground LC)
> that might by happenstance hit a resonance point that could set up
> some husky HF (Megahz?) oscillations off the ~26,000 coulomb
> excess electron charge of the earth, that could  do something strange
> enough to vindicate Dr. Moray's 1909 - 1930s anachronistic
> sojourn into solid state physics.
>
> IOW II, you have a gigaohm/meter internal resistance battery D.C.-wise
> but, if RF oscillation sets in, it's a whole different ball game, and if....
>
 
 
"Telluric currents are phenomena observed in the Earth's crust and mantle. In September of 1862, an experiment to specifically address Earth currents was carried out in the Munich Alps (Lamont, 1862). The currents are induced by changes in the outer part of the Earth's magnetic field , which are usually caused by interactions between the solar wind and the ionosphere. Utilization of these electromagnetic effects has been reported in the United States as far back as 1859. United States telegraph lines were operated by such natural induced currents (during geomagnetic disturbances). Tellurics also result from thunderstorms . Telluric currents flow in the surface layers of the earth. The electric potential on the Earth's surface can be measured at different points, enabling us to calculate the magnitudes and directions of the telluric currents and thence the Earth's conductance . Telluric currents will move between each half of the ter! restrial globe at all times. Telluric currents move equator-wa! rd (dayt ime) and pole-ward (nighttime)."
 
"The field varies in time and over the frequency range 0.001 to 5 Hz (Krasnogorskaja & Remizov, 1975). Electric potential gradients caused by telluric currents are of the order of 0.2 to 1000 volts per metre. (Krasnogorskaja and Remizov (1975); Vanjan (1975)). At any location, the current density is a direct function of the interhemispheric currents and their potential gradients. It has been estimated that telluric! currents overall during twelve hours in one hemisphere are in range of 100 to 1000 amperes. This intensity of telluric currents is sufficient to drive the air movements that create atmospheric electricity, from the global fair weather charge accumulator to thunderstorm bases."
 
 

"One of the earliest examples of an earth battery was built by Alexander Bain in 1841 in order to drive a prime mover. Bain buried plates of zinc and copper in the ground about one meter apart and used the re! sulting voltage, of about one volt, to operate a clock. Carl Friedrich Gauss, who had researched the Earth's magnetic field, and Karl A. von Steinheil, who built one of the first electric clocks and developed the idea of an " Earth return" or " ground ! return", had previously investigated such devices. Lord Kelvin developed a "sea battery" in the latter end of the 1800s."

" Daniel Drawbaugh received U.S. Patent 211322   for an Earth battery for electric clocks (with several improvements in the art of Earth batteries). Another early patent was obtained by Emil Jahr ! U.S. Patent 690151   Method of utilizing electrical Earth currents). In 1875, James C. Bryan received U.S. Patent 160152   for his Earth Battery. In 1885, George Dieckmann, received US patent U.S. Patent 329724   for his Electric Earth battery. In 1898, Nathan Stubblefield received U.S. Patent 600457   for his electrolytic coil battery, which was a combination of an earth battery and a solenoid. The Earth battery, in general, generated power for early telegraph transmissions and formed part of a tuned circuit that amplified the signalling voltage over long distances."

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 03:24:44 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBNBOZca004048; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:24:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBNBOXCv004032; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:24:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:24:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=pXm3YWLU+JgeXwKveoGQxMtjVArAr/IfcTSYhIwN9x1eUHcCCN8wV9OD/wqjS8ot; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612623112427209 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 04:24:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a3f90889c487a168c5cfe7b17f140084350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.150 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Would this work, Michel? :-) Fred http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodynamic_tether > [Original Message] > From: Michel Jullian > To: > Date: 12/23/2006 4:07:28 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 3:05 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff > > > > In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:05:29 +0100: > > Hi, > > [snip] > >>It's OK Robin, it happens to me all the time :) > >>Your other point is valid though, we don't know how long it takes the Sun to charge this capacitor. But it's unlikely it charges it in one two millionth of a day = 43 ms, which would be required for it to provide the world's daily energy consumption :/ > >> > >>Michel > > If the fair weather current is 1E-12 amps per square meter, then the total > > current for the entire planet is 510 A. Multiplying this by 300000 V gives a > > power of 153 MW - not much to run our civilization on. > > BTW the fair weather current would charge the Earth capacitor in 55.7 seconds. > > Discharge you mean, but this certainly means the sun provides an equal charging current to compensate for the leak. > > > > > BTW2 if we were to drain this power for other uses, it would not be available > > for lightning, which is intimately involved with rainfall. The consequences for > > global rainfall could be catastrophic. > > ...or beneficial maybe, if suppression of lightning had the effect of favoring gentle rainfall and suppressing brutal flood-inducing rainstorms, not to mention the damages caused by lightning itself. In which case one would have to find a way to drain the capacitor, either permanently or on demand, which doesn't seem obvious. Tethered balloon-borne "lightning rods" maybe? (wouldn't require wind unlike Benjamin Franklin's kite) > > Michel > > > > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > > > Competition provides the motivation, > > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 03:27:51 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBNBRhRL005229; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:27:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBNBRf3h005203; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:27:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:27:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=GLBatltWKQYur9vkOtGIW7eeM9fv9mG1MLK2+quoF5uBh331GXcANM1/iUXpKAle; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612623112737933 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 04:27:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404d598096a197c8e5836b950459910139350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.150 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: According to the article the material can replate itself? Michel Jullian wrote, > > Fred wrote: > > Bain buried plates of zinc and copper in the ground about one meter apart and > > used the resulting voltage, of about one volt, to operate a clock. > > This looks like a galvanic cell to me, with the earth acting as a porous electrolyte reservoir. A ZnCu cell has a 1.1V voltage: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_cell > > In which case the energy comes from the corroding electrode (zinc plate) I am afraid. It would have to work with identical metals to make sure the energy is not of chemical origin. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: "vortex-l" > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:09 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device > > > > Free Energy in Dr. Moray's backyard? > >> > >> IOW, this an open-ended transmission line (Line-To-Ground LC) > >> that might by happenstance hit a resonance point that could set up > >> some husky HF (Megahz?) oscillations off the ~26,000 coulomb > >> excess electron charge of the earth, that could do something strange > >> enough to vindicate Dr. Moray's 1909 - 1930s anachronistic > >> sojourn into solid state physics. > >> > >> IOW II, you have a gigaohm/meter internal resistance battery D.C.-wise > >> but, if RF oscillation sets in, it's a whole different ball game, and if.... > >> > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telluric_current > > > > "Telluric currents are phenomena observed in the Earth's crust and mantle. In September of 1862, an experiment to specifically address Earth currents was carried out in the Munich Alps (Lamont, 1862). The currents are induced by changes in the outer part of the Earth's magnetic field, which are usually caused by interactions between the solar wind and the ionosphere. Utilization of these electromagnetic effects has been reported in the United States as far back as 1859. United States telegraph lines were operated by such natural induced currents (during geomagnetic disturbances). Tellurics also result from thunderstorms. Telluric currents flow in the surface layers of the earth. The electric potential on the Earth's surface can be measured at different points, enabling us to calculate the magnitudes and directions of the telluric currents and thence the Earth's conductance. Telluric currents will move between each half of the terrestrial globe at all times. Telluric curren! > ts! > > move equator-ward (daytime) and pole-ward (nighttime)." > > > > "The field varies in time and over the frequency range 0.001 to 5 Hz (Krasnogorskaja & Remizov, 1975). Electric potential gradients caused by telluric currents are of the order of 0.2 to 1000 volts per metre. (Krasnogorskaja and Remizov (1975); Vanjan (1975)). At any location, the current density is a direct function of the interhemispheric currents and their potential gradients. It has been estimated that telluric currents overall during twelve hours in one hemisphere are in range of 100 to 1000 amperes. This intensity of telluric currents is sufficient to drive the air movements that create atmospheric electricity, from the global fair weather charge accumulator to thunderstorm bases." > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_battery > > > > "One of the earliest examples of an earth battery was built by Alexander Bain in 1841 in order to drive a prime mover. Bain buried plates of zinc and copper in the ground about one meter apart and used the resulting voltage, of about one volt, to operate a clock. Carl Friedrich Gauss, who had researched the Earth's magnetic field, and Karl A. von Steinheil, who built one of the first electric clocks and developed the idea of an "Earth return" or "ground return", had previously investigated such devices. Lord Kelvin developed a "sea battery" in the latter end of the 1800s." > > "Daniel Drawbaugh received U.S. Patent 211322 for an Earth battery for electric clocks (with several improvements in the art of Earth batteries). Another early patent was obtained by Emil Jahr U.S. Patent 690151 Method of utilizing electrical Earth currents). In 1875, James C. Bryan received U.S. Patent 160152 for his Earth Battery. In 1885, George Dieckmann, received US patent U.S. Patent 329724 for his Electric Earth battery. In 1898, Nathan Stubblefield received U.S. Patent 600457 for his electrolytic coil battery, which was a combination of an earth battery and a solenoid. The Earth battery, in general, generated power for early telegraph transmissions and formed part of a tuned circuit that amplified the signalling voltage over long distances." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 03:39:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBNBdQr9007482; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:39:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBNBdPPX007463; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:39:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:39:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=eLs9+QpS0XHfA0io5bzcZFw+2Z26t5Wlga/JTuXVm1PM0t6qikeKBzkFLLjRqE6a; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612623113915796 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 04:39:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b7a22157af5d4ed556b5a70cfa6c6ff9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.150 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII More fat for Moray's fire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_loop "A phantom loop is a suitably arranged electrical network that includes within the number of conductive paths part of the natural environment (which can be at the same time acting as a conductor of another circuit) to complete a circuit. It is a form of open system. Phantom loops can occur in suspended circuits, in which the conductor has no ground and uses the ionosphere to complete the circuit at both ends. Phantom loops can also occur in grounded circuits, in which the conductor has a ground and uses the lower atmosphere to complete the circuit and both ends (with the waves traversing the magnetic poles of the Earth)." ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 12/23/2006 3:10:12 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Free Energy in Dr. Moray's backyard? > > IOW, this an open-ended transmission line (Line-To-Ground LC) > that might by happenstance hit a resonance point that could set up > some husky HF (Megahz?) oscillations off the ~26,000 coulomb > excess electron charge of the earth, that could do something strange > enough to vindicate Dr. Moray's 1909 - 1930s anachronistic > sojourn into solid state physics. > > IOW II, you have a gigaohm/meter internal resistance battery D.C.-wise > but, if RF oscillation sets in, it's a whole different ball game, and if.... > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telluric_current "Telluric currents are phenomena observed in the Earth's crust and mantle. In September of 1862, an experiment to specifically address Earth currents was carried out in the Munich Alps (Lamont, 1862). The currents are induced by changes in the outer part of the Earth's magnetic field, which are usually caused by interactions between the solar wind and the ionosphere. Utilization of these electromagnetic effects has been reported in the United States as far back as 1859. United States telegraph lines were operated by such natural induced currents (during geomagnetic disturbances). Tellurics also result from thunderstorms. Telluric currents flow in the surface layers of the earth. The electric potential on the Earth's surface can be measured at different points, enabling us to calculate the magnitudes and directions of the telluric currents and thence the Earth's conductance. Telluric currents will move between each half of the ter! restrial globe at all times. Telluric currents move equator-wa! rd (dayt ime) and pole-ward (nighttime)." "The field varies in time and over the frequency range 0.001 to 5 Hz (Krasnogorskaja & Remizov, 1975). Electric potential gradients caused by telluric currents are of the order of 0.2 to 1000 volts per metre. (Krasnogorskaja and Remizov (1975); Vanjan (1975)). At any location, the current density is a direct function of the interhemispheric currents and their potential gradients. It has been estimated that telluric! currents overall during twelve hours in one hemisphere are in range of 100 to 1000 amperes. This intensity of telluric currents is sufficient to drive the air movements that create atmospheric electricity, from the global fair weather charge accumulator to thunderstorm bases." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
More fat for Moray's fire:
 
 
"A phantom loop is a suitably arranged electrical network that includes within the number of conductive paths part of the natural environment (which can be at the same time acting as a conductor of another circuit) to complete a circuit. It is a form of open system. Phantom loops can occur in suspended circuits, in which the conductor has no ground and uses the ionosphere to complete the circuit at both ends. Phantom loops can also occur in grounded circuits, in which the conductor has a ground and uses the lower atmosphere to complete the circuit and both ends (with the waves traversing the magnetic poles of the Earth)."
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 12/23/2006 3:10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device

Free Energy in Dr. Moray's backyard?
>
> IOW, this an open-ended transmission line (Line-To-Ground LC)
> that might by happenstance hit a resonance point that could set up
> some husky HF (Megahz?) oscillations off the ~26,000 coulomb
> excess electron charge of the earth, that could  do something strange
> enough to vindicate Dr. Moray's 1909 - 1930s anachronistic
> sojourn into solid state physics.
>
> IOW II, you have a gigaohm/meter internal resistance battery D.C.-wise
> but, if RF oscillation sets in, it's a whole different ball game, and if....
>
 
 
"Telluric currents are phenomena observed in the Earth's crust and mantle. In September of 1862, an experiment to specifically address Earth currents was carried out in the Munich Alps (Lamont, 1862). The currents are induced by changes in the outer part of the Earth's magnetic field, which are usually caused by interactions between the solar wind and the ionosphere. Utilization of these electromagnetic effects has been reported in the United States as far back as 1859. United States telegraph lines were operated by such natural induced currents (during geomagnetic disturbances). Tellurics also result from thunderstorms. Telluric currents flow in the surface layers of the earth. The electric potential on the Earth's surface can be measured at different points, enabling us to calculate the magnitudes and directions of the telluric currents and thence the Earth's conductance. Telluric currents will move between each half of the ter! restrial globe at all times. Telluric currents move equator-wa! rd (dayt ime) and pole-ward (nighttime)."
 
"The field varies in time and over the frequency range 0.001 to 5 Hz (Krasnogorskaja & Remizov, 1975). Electric potential gradients caused by telluric currents are of the order of 0.2 to 1000 volts per metre. (Krasnogorskaja and Remizov (1975); Vanjan (1975)). At any location, the current density is a direct function of the interhemispheric currents and their potential gradients. It has been estimated that telluric! currents overall during twelve hours in one hemisphere are in range of 100 to 1000 amperes. This intensity of telluric currents is sufficient to drive the air movements that create atmospheric electricity, from the global fair weather charge accumulator to thunderstorm bases."
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 06:16:48 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBNEGgjC007808; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 06:16:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBNEGa6J007783; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 06:16:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 06:16:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=NXSiDjlZ+HVfZBwMSJnU2LAW4g0I09zuJfbB26lVfJrOtPcuTXZCDhThYjmVJj/H0qlWIxSkMgob9Ol/qtzr4z7gVu2vf81VzrNPuHxXi7OasGlYL92ffVKi/DNv/Gpf26utcg7wptg9jzoXSJ0kaUuPhGdaB9akoTJ6SgFbNgw= Message-ID: <357653710612230616x2e73f4ffk4c2266e729b23289 mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 15:16:30 +0100 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden gmail.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff In-Reply-To: <410-2200612623112427209 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_64588_7786405.1166883390422" References: <410-2200612623112427209 earthlink.net> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9db022163d8302e9 Resent-Message-ID: <48uOT.A.j5B.EpTjFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_64588_7786405.1166883390422 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SXQgZG9lcyBub3Qgc2VlbSBsaWtlIGEgZ29vZCBhcnRpY2xlLm9uIFdpa2lwZWRpYS4KCldoZW4g ZGlyZWN0IGN1cnJlbnQgPGh0dHA6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvRGlyZWN0X2N1cnJl bnQ+IGlzIHB1bXBlZAp0aHJvdWdoIHRoZSB0ZXRoZXIsIGl0IGV4ZXJ0cyBhIGZvcmNlIGFnYWlu c3QgdGhlIG1hZ25ldGljIGZpZWxkLCBhbmQgdGhlCnRldGhlciBhY2NlbGVyYXRlcyB0aGUgc3Bh Y2VjcmFmdC4KClNob3VsZCByZWFkIGFzCgpXaGVuIGRpcmVjdCBjdXJyZW50IDxodHRwOi8vZW4u d2lraXBlZGlhLm9yZy93aWtpL0RpcmVjdF9jdXJyZW50PiBpcyBwdW1wZWQKdGhyb3VnaCB0aGUg dGV0aGVyLCBpdCBleGVydHMgYSBmb3JjZSBhZ2FpbnN0IHRoZSBtYWduZXRpYyBmaWVsZCBncmFk aWVudCwKYW5kIHRoZSB0ZXRoZXIgYWNjZWxlcmF0ZXMgdGhlIHNwYWNlY3JhZnQuCgpUaGUgZmll bGQgaXMgdmVyeSB3ZWFrIGFuZCB0aGUgZ3JhZGllbnQgZXZlbiB3ZWFrZXIuICpGKj1baW1hZ2U6 IFtkZWxdXSgqbSrCtwoqQiopICBvciAqRio9KCptKsK3W2ltYWdlOiBbZGVsXV0pKkIqCmFwcGFy ZW50bHkgdGhlcmUgaXMgc29tZSBhbWJpZ3VpdHkgb24gdGhpcyBzdWJqZWN0OgpodHRwOi8vc2Np dGF0aW9uLmFpcC5vcmcvZ2V0YWJzL3NlcnZsZXQvR2V0YWJzU2VydmxldD9wcm9nPW5vcm1hbCZp ZD1BSlBJQVMwMDAwNTYwMDAwMDgwMDA2ODgwMDAwMDEmaWR0eXBlPWN2aXBzJmdpZnM9eWVzCgpE YXZpZAoKT24gMTIvMjMvMDYsIEZyZWRlcmljayBTcGFyYmVyIDxmanNwYXJiZXJAZWFydGhsaW5r Lm5ldD4gd3JvdGU6Cj4KPiBXb3VsZCB0aGlzIHdvcmssIE1pY2hlbD8gICA6LSkKPgo+IEZyZWQK Pgo+IGh0dHA6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvRWxlY3Ryb2R5bmFtaWNfdGV0aGVyCj4K Pgo+Cj4K ------=_Part_64588_7786405.1166883390422 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SXQgZG9lcyBub3Qgc2VlbSBsaWtlIGEgZ29vZCBhcnRpY2xlLm9uIFdpa2lwZWRpYS48YnI+PGJy PjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXN0eWxlOiBpdGFsaWM7Ij5XaGVuIDwvc3Bhbj48YSBzdHlsZT0i Zm9udC1zdHlsZTogaXRhbGljOyIgaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9E aXJlY3RfY3VycmVudCIgdGl0bGU9IkRpcmVjdCBjdXJyZW50Ij5kaXJlY3QgY3VycmVudAo8L2E+ PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc3R5bGU6IGl0YWxpYzsiPiBpcyBwdW1wZWQgdGhyb3VnaCB0aGUg dGV0aGVyLCBpdCBleGVydHMgYSBmb3JjZSBhZ2FpbnN0IHRoZSBtYWduZXRpYyBmaWVsZCwgYW5k IHRoZSB0ZXRoZXIgYWNjZWxlcmF0ZXMgdGhlIHNwYWNlY3JhZnQuPC9zcGFuPjxiciBzdHlsZT0i Zm9udC1zdHlsZTogaXRhbGljOyI+PGJyPlNob3VsZCByZWFkIGFzIDxicj48YnI+CjxzcGFuIHN0 eWxlPSJmb250LXN0eWxlOiBpdGFsaWM7Ij5XaGVuIDwvc3Bhbj48YSBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zdHls ZTogaXRhbGljOyIgaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9EaXJlY3RfY3Vy cmVudCIgdGl0bGU9IkRpcmVjdCBjdXJyZW50Ij5kaXJlY3QgY3VycmVudDwvYT48c3BhbiBzdHls ZT0iZm9udC1zdHlsZTogaXRhbGljOyI+IGlzIHB1bXBlZCB0aHJvdWdoIHRoZSB0ZXRoZXIsIGl0 IGV4ZXJ0cyBhIGZvcmNlIGFnYWluc3QgdGhlIG1hZ25ldGljIGZpZWxkIAo8c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0i Zm9udC13ZWlnaHQ6IGJvbGQ7Ij5ncmFkaWVudDwvc3Bhbj4sIGFuZCB0aGUgdGV0aGVyIGFjY2Vs ZXJhdGVzIHRoZSBzcGFjZWNyYWZ0Ljwvc3Bhbj48YnIgc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc3R5bGU6IGl0YWxp YzsiPgo8YnI+VGhlIGZpZWxkIGlzIHZlcnkgd2VhayBhbmQgdGhlIGdyYWRpZW50IGV2ZW4gd2Vh a2VyLiA8Yj5GPC9iPj08aW1nIHNyYz0iaHR0cDovL3NjaXRhdGlvbi5haXAub3JnL3N0b2NrZ2lm Mi9uYWJsYS5naWYiIGFsdD0iW2RlbF0iIGFsaWduPSJib3R0b20iIGJvcmRlcj0iMCI+KDxiPm08 L2I+wrc8Yj5CPC9iPikmbmJzcDsgb3IgPGI+RjwvYj49KDxiPm08L2I+wrc8aW1nIHNyYz0iaHR0 cDovL3NjaXRhdGlvbi5haXAub3JnL3N0b2NrZ2lmMi9uYWJsYS5naWYiIGFsdD0iW2RlbF0iIGFs aWduPSJib3R0b20iIGJvcmRlcj0iMCI+Cik8Yj5CPC9iPjxicj5hcHBhcmVudGx5IHRoZXJlIGlz IHNvbWUgYW1iaWd1aXR5IG9uIHRoaXMgc3ViamVjdDo8YnI+PGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL3NjaXRh dGlvbi5haXAub3JnL2dldGFicy9zZXJ2bGV0L0dldGFic1NlcnZsZXQ/cHJvZz1ub3JtYWwmYW1w O2lkPUFKUElBUzAwMDA1NjAwMDAwODAwMDY4ODAwMDAwMSZhbXA7aWR0eXBlPWN2aXBzJmFtcDtn aWZzPXllcyI+aHR0cDovL3NjaXRhdGlvbi5haXAub3JnL2dldGFicy9zZXJ2bGV0L0dldGFic1Nl cnZsZXQ/cHJvZz1ub3JtYWwmYW1wO2lkPUFKUElBUzAwMDA1NjAwMDAwODAwMDY4ODAwMDAwMSZh bXA7aWR0eXBlPWN2aXBzJmFtcDtnaWZzPXllcwo8L2E+PGJyPjxicj5EYXZpZDxicj48YnI+PGRp dj48c3BhbiBjbGFzcz0iZ21haWxfcXVvdGUiPk9uIDEyLzIzLzA2LCA8YiBjbGFzcz0iZ21haWxf c2VuZGVybmFtZSI+RnJlZGVyaWNrIFNwYXJiZXI8L2I+ICZsdDs8YSBocmVmPSJtYWlsdG86Zmpz cGFyYmVyQGVhcnRobGluay5uZXQiPmZqc3BhcmJlckBlYXJ0aGxpbmsubmV0PC9hPiZndDsgd3Jv dGU6PC9zcGFuPjxibG9ja3F1b3RlIGNsYXNzPSJnbWFpbF9xdW90ZSIgc3R5bGU9ImJvcmRlci1s ZWZ0OiAxcHggc29saWQgcmdiKDIwNCwgMjA0LCAyMDQpOyBtYXJnaW46IDBwdCAwcHQgMHB0IDAu OGV4OyBwYWRkaW5nLWxlZnQ6IDFleDsiPgpXb3VsZCB0aGlzIHdvcmssIE1pY2hlbD8mbmJzcDsm bmJzcDsgOi0pPGJyPjxicj5GcmVkPGJyPjxicj48YSBocmVmPSJodHRwOi8vZW4ud2lraXBlZGlh Lm9yZy93aWtpL0VsZWN0cm9keW5hbWljX3RldGhlciI+aHR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcv d2lraS9FbGVjdHJvZHluYW1pY190ZXRoZXI8L2E+PGJyPjxicj48YnI+PGJyPjwvYmxvY2txdW90 ZT48L2Rpdj48YnI+Cg== ------=_Part_64588_7786405.1166883390422-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 06:50:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBNEo4cl023638; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 06:50:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBNEnwYn023560; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 06:49:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 06:49:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0e1301c726a1$e3bb6dd0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200612623112737933 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 15:51:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBNEnuoc023536 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Cu plate replates itself from Cu++ in the solution, the Zn plate dissolves (releases Zn++ to the solution) so it can be viewed as the fuel. Works with other metal pairs. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device > According to the article the material can replate itself? > > Michel Jullian wrote, >> >> Fred wrote: >> > Bain buried plates of zinc and copper in the ground about one meter > apart and >> > used the resulting voltage, of about one volt, to operate a clock. >> >> This looks like a galvanic cell to me, with the earth acting as a porous > electrolyte reservoir. A ZnCu cell has a 1.1V voltage: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_cell >> >> In which case the energy comes from the corroding electrode (zinc plate) > I am afraid. It would have to work with identical metals to make sure the > energy is not of chemical origin. >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> To: "vortex-l" >> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:09 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: T. H.Moray's Energy Device >> >> >> > Free Energy in Dr. Moray's backyard? >> >> >> >> IOW, this an open-ended transmission line (Line-To-Ground LC) >> >> that might by happenstance hit a resonance point that could set up >> >> some husky HF (Megahz?) oscillations off the ~26,000 coulomb >> >> excess electron charge of the earth, that could do something strange >> >> enough to vindicate Dr. Moray's 1909 - 1930s anachronistic >> >> sojourn into solid state physics. >> >> >> >> IOW II, you have a gigaohm/meter internal resistance battery D.C.-wise >> >> but, if RF oscillation sets in, it's a whole different ball game, and > if.... >> >> >> > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telluric_current >> > >> > "Telluric currents are phenomena observed in the Earth's crust and > mantle. In September of 1862, an experiment to specifically address Earth > currents was carried out in the Munich Alps (Lamont, 1862). The currents > are induced by changes in the outer part of the Earth's magnetic field, > which are usually caused by interactions between the solar wind and the > ionosphere. Utilization of these electromagnetic effects has been reported > in the United States as far back as 1859. United States telegraph lines > were operated by such natural induced currents (during geomagnetic > disturbances). Tellurics also result from thunderstorms. Telluric currents > flow in the surface layers of the earth. The electric potential on the > Earth's surface can be measured at different points, enabling us to > calculate the magnitudes and directions of the telluric currents and thence > the Earth's conductance. Telluric currents will move between each half of > the terrestrial globe at all times. Telluric curren! >> ts! >> > move equator-ward (daytime) and pole-ward (nighttime)." >> > >> > "The field varies in time and over the frequency range 0.001 to 5 Hz > (Krasnogorskaja & Remizov, 1975). Electric potential gradients caused by > telluric currents are of the order of 0.2 to 1000 volts per metre. > (Krasnogorskaja and Remizov (1975); Vanjan (1975)). At any location, the > current density is a direct function of the interhemispheric currents and > their potential gradients. It has been estimated that telluric currents > overall during twelve hours in one hemisphere are in range of 100 to 1000 > amperes. This intensity of telluric currents is sufficient to drive the air > movements that create atmospheric electricity, from the global fair weather > charge accumulator to thunderstorm bases." >> > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_battery >> > >> > "One of the earliest examples of an earth battery was built by > Alexander Bain in 1841 in order to drive a prime mover. Bain buried plates > of zinc and copper in the ground about one meter apart and used the > resulting voltage, of about one volt, to operate a clock. Carl Friedrich > Gauss, who had researched the Earth's magnetic field, and Karl A. von > Steinheil, who built one of the first electric clocks and developed the > idea of an "Earth return" or "ground return", had previously investigated > such devices. Lord Kelvin developed a "sea battery" in the latter end of > the 1800s." >> > "Daniel Drawbaugh received U.S. Patent 211322 for an Earth battery for > electric clocks (with several improvements in the art of Earth batteries). > Another early patent was obtained by Emil Jahr U.S. Patent 690151 Method > of utilizing electrical Earth currents). In 1875, James C. Bryan received > U.S. Patent 160152 for his Earth Battery. In 1885, George Dieckmann, > received US patent U.S. Patent 329724 for his Electric Earth battery. In > 1898, Nathan Stubblefield received U.S. Patent 600457 for his electrolytic > coil battery, which was a combination of an earth battery and a solenoid. > The Earth battery, in general, generated power for early telegraph > transmissions and formed part of a tuned circuit that amplified the > signalling voltage over long distances." > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 07:03:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBNF2nN7004562; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 07:02:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBNF2nhU004552; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 07:02:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 07:02:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0e1901c726a3$afa35470$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200612623112427209 earthlink.net> <357653710612230616x2e73f4ffk4c2266e729b23289@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:04:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBNF2l8n004533 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, earth to space tethers are a very promising area of research (space elevators etc.). Might be the best bet for a 50km conductive wire indeed. The technology is more speculative than balloons though :) David, no magnetic field gradient is needed, the Lorentz force also exists in a uniform magnetic field (cf e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force ) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Jonsson" To: Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Going Van de Graaff > It does not seem like a good article.on Wikipedia. > > When direct current is pumped > through the tether, it exerts a force against the magnetic field, and the > tether accelerates the spacecraft. > > Should read as > > When direct current is pumped > through the tether, it exerts a force against the magnetic field gradient, > and the tether accelerates the spacecraft. > > The field is very weak and the gradient even weaker. *F*=[image: [del]](*m*· > *B*) or *F*=(*m*·[image: [del]])*B* > apparently there is some ambiguity on this subject: > http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=AJPIAS000056000008000688000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes > > David > > On 12/23/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: >> >> Would this work, Michel? :-) >> >> Fred >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodynamic_tether >> >> >> >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 16:57:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBO0vAq4006174; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:57:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBO0v0kk006041; Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:57:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:57:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 11:56:38 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <90jro2h6i5vci1rf524a3po36b89t3pkaa 4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 24 Dec 2006 00:56:38 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBO0ugv6005799 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Upside down Status: RO X-Status: Hi, Consider the possibility that in its ground state the electron of the Hydrogen atom does 1/alpha orbits before reconnecting with itself. Then for H[n=1/2] it does 1/(2*alpha) (~= 68) orbits before reconnecting, etc. etc. until finally for H[n=1/137] it only does one orbit before reconnecting. If the actual center of charge continually travels at the speed of light, then in the normal ground state, it will only reconnect after 1/alpha orbits, so the "group velocity" of the reconnection point will be c*alpha, which matches the orbital velocity of the electron. (Of course it does, that's what led me down this path ;) Furthermore, when it reaches the end of the line, and is only doing a single orbit for H[n=1/alpha], the group velocity of the electron is traveling at the speed of light, which is exactly what Mills predicts for H[n=1/alpha], and is in fact the very reason that this *is* the end of the line. In short rather than starting out simple, and getting more complicated as it shrinks, it is in fact starting out complicated, and getting more simple as it shrinks, until it achieves ultimate simplicity in the form of a single ring. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 10:13:53 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBQIDaxH009540; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 10:13:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBQIDPZZ009501; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 10:13:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 10:13:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:13:22 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01C8_01C728DE.DABB0990" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01C8_01C728DE.DABB0990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Further reading of the Steorn forums and website pages indicate that Steorn doesn't use either any form of magnetic shielding or Holbach arrays ( flat versions of horseshoe magnets ), although I don't think the Steorn effect precludes using either of those. I'd like to also do experiments with a Whitworth fast return mechanism, or a more elaborate asymmetric system using a universal joint (Cardan joint) at an angle to see if the energy traversing a path through a magnetic field depends on speed. I think I have figured out the gist of the Steorn motor from inferences derived from the voluminous postings on the Steorn forum. It's as if Steorn wants to get the information out, but in such a way that it doesn't invalidate any patents they are seeking. In any case I expect the full details to be released in less than 8 months. I sure hope it works. ( http://www.steorn.net http://www.steornwatch.com http://www.steornpower.com ) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn ) ( http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO2006035419&QPN=WO2006035419 ) I will describe several versions of how I think a fuelless engine could work for the record. These are constant torque motors, so, ironically, in their simplest embodiment, they would self destruct without a load. The highest power to weight ratio would therefore be a high RPM version. Steorn claims to have a 550 hp motor running. I'm not proficient in mechanical CAD programs, so, I'll give brief descriptions in English (I've got a copy of Alibre design and emachineshop.com; what do you think of those? What program do you use? ). Variation 1: Similar to a permanent magnet alternator, except there are two rows of 4-6 neodymium-iron-boron magnets on both the stator and rotor offset such that the magnets are rotationally staggered from one row to the other. In between the rotor and stator is a soft iron pipe with 1/4" thick walls that is the width of one magnet row. Here's the tricky part for a mechanical engineer. It must slide up and down alternating between the two rows, alternately shielding the magnetic fields from one row, then the other. I originally envisioned an alternating screw cam following a left and right helix machined into the rotor (similar to the way a fishing reel guides the line onto the spool ( Is there a name for that mechanism? ). Because of axial vibration, I think one would have two of these motors on the same axis 180o out of phase to cancel the inertial forces. This is well beyond my capability to design and build :-( . Variation 2: Reference Steorn's patent ( http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO2006035419&QPN=WO2006035419 ) Each stator magnet has it's own shield that moves axially with the appropriate timing. These Ne-Fe-Bo magnets are incredibly strong. In spite of all my care with the 1 cubic inch magnets, I'm often trying to unstick the tools on my workbench from them as they tend to get sucked in. When one gets stuck to my vice, it's quite a problem. I can pull it off with pliers, but then it's stuck to the pliers :-(. Given these forces measured in tons, I think a car alternator sized motor could produce ~50HP. Does anyone want to build this? Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US http://HoytStearns.com ------=_NextPart_000_01C8_01C728DE.DABB0990 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Further reading of the Steorn = forums and=20 website pages indicate that Steorn doesn't use either any form of = magnetic=20 shielding or Holbach arrays ( flat versions of horseshoe magnets ), = although I=20 don't think the Steorn effect precludes using either of those. I'd like = to also=20 do experiments with a Whitworth fast return mechanism, or a more = elaborate=20 asymmetric system using a universal joint (Cardan joint) at an = angle to see=20 if the energy traversing a path through a magnetic field depends on=20 speed.

 
 




I think I have figured out the gist of the Steorn = motor=20 from inferences derived from the voluminous postings on the Steorn=20 forum.
It's as if Steorn wants to get the information out, but in = such a way=20 that it doesn't invalidate any patents they are seeking.

In any = case I=20 expect the full details to be released in less than 8 months.  I = sure hope=20 it works.

( http://www.steorn.net http://www.steornwatch.com  = http://www.steornpower.com )
( = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn = )
(=20 http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=3DEPODOC&IDX=3DWO20060354= 19&QPN=3DWO2006035419 )

I will describe several versions of how I think a = fuelless=20 engine could work for the record.

These are constant torque = motors, so,=20 ironically, in their simplest embodiment, they would
self destruct = without a=20 load. The highest power to weight ratio would therefore be a high
RPM = version. Steorn claims to have a 550 hp motor running.

I'm not = proficient=20 in mechanical CAD programs, so,  I'll give brief descriptions
in = English=20 (I've got a copy of Alibre design and emachineshop.com; what do you = think of=20 those?
What program do you use? ).

Variation=20 1:

        Similar to a = permanent=20 magnet alternator, except there are two rows=20 of
        4-6 = neodymium-iron-boron=20 magnets on both the stator and rotor=20 offset
        such that the = magnets are=20 rotationally staggered from one row to the=20 other.
        In between the = rotor and=20 stator is a soft
        iron pipe = with=20 1/4" thick walls that is the width of one magnet=20 row.

        Here's the tricky = part=20 for a mechanical engineer.  It must slide up and=20 down
        alternating between = the two=20 rows, alternately shielding the magnetic=20 fields
        from one row, then = the=20 other.  I originally envisioned an alternating=20 screw
        cam following a left = and=20 right helix machined into the rotor (similar to the=20 way
        a fishing reel guides = the line=20 onto the spool ( Is there a name for that mechanism?=20 ).

        Because of axial = vibration,=20 I think one would have two of these motors on the same=20 axis
        180o out of phase to = cancel=20 the inertial forces.

        = This is=20 well beyond my capability to design and build :-( .

Variation=20 2:

        Reference Steorn's=20 patent
        ( http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=3DEPODOC&IDX=3DWO20060354= 19&QPN=3DWO2006035419 )
        Each stator = magnet has=20 it's own shield that moves axially with the appropriate = timing.

These=20 Ne-Fe-Bo magnets are incredibly strong. In spite of all my care with the = 1 cubic=20 inch
magnets, I'm often trying to unstick the tools on my workbench = from them=20 as they tend to
get sucked in.  When one gets stuck to my vice, = it's=20 quite a problem.  I can pull it
off with pliers, but then it's = stuck to=20 the pliers :-(.  Given these forces measured in
tons, I think a = car=20 alternator sized motor could produce ~50HP.

Does anyone want to = build=20 this?


Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona US
http://HoytStearns.com

------=_NextPart_000_01C8_01C728DE.DABB0990-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 13:05:38 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBQL5U7q007896; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:05:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBQL5TPK007883; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:05:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:05:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YF0+oXmoP7dQlO7ekv5e2SEb/90DV7RjElgAq1GSPurSgTJNBhBw57wRBkQCiodE+X/GJ01RP2Nfvf39GaLd61TcG9Y7ky7P+m5cYqUk4zPRceOxwto5u20ZfMYn3DO2uPR50iDu22ev3bezAysUsnxieAhrKXnqoS72HkFtFC4= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 16:05:21 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/26/06, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > It's as if Steorn wants to get the information out, but in such a way that > it doesn't invalidate any patents they are seeking. They might already have patent problems. ;-) > These are constant torque motors, so, ironically, in their simplest > embodiment, they would > self destruct without a load. The highest power to weight ratio would > therefore be a high > RPM version. Steorn claims to have a 550 hp motor running. Yes, hence the advantage of the Sprain approach. We can control the torque by controlling the RPM. The real problem is that most real loads vary immensely. Your typical home has a peak demand of 10 kW with an average demand of roughly 2 kW. Regarding a 550 motor, this means little without knowing their COP. With their stated COP of 2.3, one might assume that almost half of the power is consumed internally. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 13:13:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBQLD7jq004258; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:13:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBQLCnxs004166; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:12:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:12:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AnoUALIekUVBJ8TuX2dsb2JhbACNfxUPKQ X-IronPort-AV: i="4.12,211,1165208400"; d="scan'208"; a="63362239:sNHT16933288" Message-ID: <45919044.9010906 teksavvy.com> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 16:12:36 -0500 From: peatbog User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 12/26/06, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > >> It's as if Steorn wants to get the information out, but in such a way >> that >> it doesn't invalidate any patents they are seeking. > > They might already have patent problems. ;-) Please give us the details. > >> These are constant torque motors, so, ironically, in their simplest >> embodiment, they would >> self destruct without a load. The highest power to weight ratio would >> therefore be a high >> RPM version. Steorn claims to have a 550 hp motor running. > > Yes, hence the advantage of the Sprain approach. We can control the > torque by controlling the RPM. The real problem is that most real > loads vary immensely. Your typical home has a peak demand of 10 kW > with an average demand of roughly 2 kW. > > Regarding a 550 motor, this means little without knowing their COP. > With their stated COP of 2.3, one might assume that almost half of the > power is consumed internally. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 13:38:20 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBQLc78k015011; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:38:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBQLc6DZ015005; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:38:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:38:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: rt15_BoVM1lGuiKxYMALMYSjacmd_KmU6gYEeuASKw.2a1hgDei_8gG__0DQj_IDDdYsf2v5l1PqMxy38d8hOzS53OJdf4_XZSHpwH.XfXxI2Y1c_PHC_AMwQtWiFfr58iAAalp9obbPxnOJGGmjntz6_tkglrHaJw-- Message-ID: <45919638.5080503 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 16:38:00 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy Status: RO X-Status: Here in southern Ontario, frequent ice storms are the norm and 2/3 of the power lines are above ground. Back in 1998 4" of ice accumulated on everything and the whole region was without power for a couple weeks; since then there's been lots of talk about buried wires but very little digging has actually taken place. Living in a house where not just heat, but hot water, cooking, and the pump that brings in the water used to flush the toilet all depend on electricity has led me to the conclusion that a little less direct dependence on the grid might be a Good Goal. The folks who lived here before us put in a nice new fireplace which actually gives off heat when you use it (unlike the conventional "Middle Ages style" fireplaces which suck in air through the chinks in the walls, and so tend to cool things off). But a warm house without drinking water or flush toilets still seems suboptimal. (Come to think of it, after the power goes out and the battery backup sump pump's battery runs down we'll have plenty of water, but not really the right sort...) So, I've been daydreaming about covering the roof with solar cells and filling the basement with batteries in an effort to gain some security against the vagaries of "Acts of God", as the failure of badly-designed systems due to predictable events is generally called. After a "mental walk-through" counting watts, it appears that, more or less in line with Terry's recent post, something like a kilowatt or so of continuous power would do us (if we turn off all unnecessary lights and don't use the furnace), and that suggests something like 50 square meters of solar panels to charge up during the day and something approaching 20 automobile batteries to carry the house through the night. Do any of you have any experience with such an approach? Is it stupid even to consider such a scheme, given that we're a little more than 45 degrees north of the equator? Is there a more rational approach? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 13:54:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBQLrqll021161; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:53:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBQLroxG021142; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:53:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:53:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: zDl.UkkVM1nkZ.9C3pBFuuk5lnqBkyEu3CBOS05TUG7zbHhwsmkDqDgqXr8HWufQwegqn.dGZcdbdWA8BSsJPO1Or04gEZzaRTEebEDDN48uGB.3zblpi7PihM5Y6HsR0tIxt4C87lFfm2Y- Message-ID: <459199E2.403 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 16:53:38 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Home sputtering experiment Status: RO X-Status: Dig the tea kettle: http://www.physicsinsights.org/images/copper-kettle-1.png It's not copper. It's stainless steel. Until a couple of hours before the "experiment" it was plain, silvery stainless-steel color. It had a copper bottom, however, which turned out to be an important factor in its subsequent evolution. It was boiled dry on an electric range, which was cranked all the way up; nobody was in the room, and nobody noticed it until the smell of the scorching bakelite handle drifted up the stairs. The copper cladding on the bottom of the kettle is _gone_ -- it's bare steel down there now. And the copper apparently ended up on top! I've seen overheated steel before, and it never turns this rich golden brown -- always turns funny rainbow colors, such as what you can see at the bottom edge of the kettle in the picture. I wouldn't recommend trying this, by the way, or at least don't try it in such an uncontrolled fashion -- the stench from the burnt bakelite took over a day to get out of the house, and the kettle, which had some cladding of some sort on the _inside_ as well as the outside, was ruined (a bunch of revolting gray flaky stuff came out along with the water next time I tried to use it). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 14:48:05 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBQMm1hS015254; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 14:48:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBQMlsOg015210; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 14:47:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 14:47:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:47:44 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01D6_01C72905.2EDB5590" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <45919044.9010906 teksavvy.com> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: RE: Steorn Motors Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01D6_01C72905.2EDB5590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the COP is infinite (nothing goes in). >From the Steorn website: ...The effect and therefore the result of scaling machines that use it is linear (implied linear by volume it seems --HS). Steorn has built three sizes to test this out. From the size of a fingernail to a cubic meter (which outputs 550BH - enough to power a sports car). The power density is almost 5 times that of a lithium ion battery. It is 0.5 watts per cc (including generator) and 5 watts/cc (without generator). In small portable devices it will give a faint whirr (like a modern disc drive) It is simple to construct using modern manufacturing methods and is robust. Another interesting tidbit is that they use a FEA/CAD program 3dFlux or something like that. The software does not produce the actual result, therefore the mathematical model for magnetic flux is incorrect. Philosophical question: Whenever there is an energy producing device, mostly it is understood where the energy comes from in some sense (Steorn doesn't know). Is that really necessary? What if the actual differential equations describing the Steorn effect show it's just a natural solution that energy comes out -- it's the nature of reality -- it doesn't have to come from anything. Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US http://HoytStearns.com -----Original Message----- From: peatbog [mailto:peatbog teksavvy.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:13 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 12/26/06, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > >> It's as if Steorn wants to get the information out, but in such a way >> that >> it doesn't invalidate any patents they are seeking. > > They might already have patent problems. ;-) Please give us the details. > >> These are constant torque motors, so, ironically, in their simplest >> embodiment, they would >> self destruct without a load. The highest power to weight ratio would >> therefore be a high >> RPM version. Steorn claims to have a 550 hp motor running. > > Yes, hence the advantage of the Sprain approach. We can control the > torque by controlling the RPM. The real problem is that most real > loads vary immensely. Your typical home has a peak demand of 10 kW > with an average demand of roughly 2 kW. > > Regarding a 550 motor, this means little without knowing their COP. > With their stated COP of 2.3, one might assume that almost half of the > power is consumed internally. > > Terry > ------=_NextPart_000_01D6_01C72905.2EDB5590 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think the COP is infinite (nothing goes = in).

From the=20 Steorn website:


...The = effect and=20 therefore the result of scaling machines that use it is linear (implied linear by volume it seems = --HS).
Steorn has=20 built three sizes to test this out. From the size of a fingernail to a = cubic=20 meter (which outputs 550BH - enough to power a sports car).
The power = density=20 is almost 5 times that of a lithium ion battery.
It is 0.5 watts per = cc=20 (including generator) and 5 watts/cc (without generator).
In small = portable=20 devices it will give a faint whirr (like a modern disc drive)
It is = simple to=20 construct using modern manufacturing methods and is robust.

Another interesting tidbit is that they use a FEA/CAD program = 3dFlux or=20 something like that.  The software does not produce the = actual=20 result, therefore the mathematical model for magnetic flux is incorrect. = Philosophical question:  Whenever there is an energy producing = device,=20 mostly it is understood where the energy comes from in some sense = (Steorn=20 doesn't know).  Is that really necessary?  What if  the = actual=20 differential equations describing the Steorn effect show it's just = a=20 natural solution that energy comes out -- it's the nature of reality -- = it=20 doesn't have to come from anything.
 
 
Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona US




-----Original Message-----
From: = peatbog=20 [mailto:peatbog teksavvy.com]
Sent: = Tuesday,=20 December 26, 2006 2:13 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:=20 [Vo]:


Terry Blanton wrote:
> On 12/26/06, Hoyt A. = Stearns Jr.=20 <hoyt-stearns cox.net> wrote:
>
>> It's as if = Steorn wants=20 to get the information out, but in such a way
>> = that
>> it=20 doesn't invalidate any patents they are seeking.
>
> They = might=20 already have patent problems.  ;-)

Please give us the=20 details.


>
>> These are constant torque motors, = so,=20 ironically, in their simplest
>> embodiment, they = would
>>=20 self destruct without a load. The highest power to weight ratio=20 would
>> therefore be a high
>> RPM version. Steorn = claims to=20 have a 550 hp motor running.
>
> Yes, hence the advantage of = the=20 Sprain approach.  We can control the
> torque by controlling = the=20 RPM.  The real problem is that most real
> loads vary=20 immensely.  Your typical home has a peak demand of 10 kW
> = with an=20 average demand of roughly  2 kW.
>
> Regarding a 550 = motor,=20 this means little without knowing their COP.
> With their stated = COP of=20 2.3, one might assume that almost half of the
> power is consumed=20 internally.
>
> Terry
>

------=_NextPart_000_01D6_01C72905.2EDB5590-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 15:07:07 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBQN6wsu020578; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:06:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBQN6vo8020558; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:06:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:06:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=IAyhX40T/0Q7+UUcoYsCq44OGPpudQUmRbF2qFqIwxjMFQ+zYAsNVYhBkFmkteXoKJjsIZX9IMxsxil5edI9FsJNFUhQjdsR7CSKal0semgSIJhir4WkFS1HE+HtRlnS/w28D2yhzqpBy14JW6HSLmZgUdGaZVEH04bhcUvzrMU= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:06:55 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <45919044.9010906 teksavvy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45919044.9010906 teksavvy.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/26/06, peatbog wrote: > Please give us the details. It could be mere speculation before more is released by Steorn. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 15:20:11 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBQNK2JP000463; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:20:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBQNK0Oi000436; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:20:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:20:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=i+qqOQ4knUE3VYx7yj17WpgRPtrGuGXjzIb/Ctkc2IjQtFPyCN2lDc+Yd2SJs1S1WhXTfjAxQ+p5ZNS/JATdWhd8+YE+M47sdeGC9ABuvADyrsTzZMRm7/5Dj2H9Qvi8tecetDEjtBtcHCUz/l2fM+o0dMYNOtoVGw3FeslF4ao= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:19:50 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy In-Reply-To: <45919638.5080503 pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45919638.5080503 pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: <2qsKKC.A.wG.g4akFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 12/26/06, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > After a "mental walk-through" counting watts, it appears that, more or > less in line with Terry's recent post, something like a kilowatt or so > of continuous power would do us (if we turn off all unnecessary lights > and don't use the furnace), and that suggests something like 50 square > meters of solar panels to charge up during the day and something > approaching 20 automobile batteries to carry the house through the night. First, don't use automobile batteries. They are not designed for deep discharge cycles. Golf cart batteries are a better choice. Also, don't forget that, while your power source only needs to meet your average demand, your inverter must meet your peak demand. Finally, you might want to get in line for some of the first nanotechnology solar cells: http://www.nanosolar.com which will reduce your cell cost significantly. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 15:23:52 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBQNNlLP001251; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:23:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBQNNhYI001228; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:23:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:23:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UV6Mf+Xnn4DjRzQin2mtc4EmmS/m6IMVereKBYsEawPzMTPgwHbnYKDtlTnWK7r+oIGqtIm4xnafILFiX2q68c2wpAFkhs/IfnhmhH09s4x1UmthUG3M3RT5OjcRlkHlsF+BsL2raCmIyVMfFCVrK9f5amTXZ45Z7P6pPDwTpIM= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:23:41 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: RE: Steorn Motors In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45919044.9010906 teksavvy.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/26/06, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote:> > > I think the COP is infinite (nothing goes in). Nothing goes in; but, if they are measuring generated power and not net power, then their output is not 550 hp. We need more information. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 18:33:49 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBR2Xgjw002956; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:33:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBR2XeJo002944; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:33:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:33:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 19:33:32 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01F8_01C72924.BA881370" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01F8_01C72924.BA881370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some practical Steorn data: According to my rough calculations, A 60 HP (45 KW) Steorn motor would be 9000 cm^3 ( 546 in^3 ) or 21 cm cube ( 8" cube ) or 3" high by 13.5" dia cylinder. The stated power density implies a 60 HP motor would weight 6Kg (13 pounds) . Let's assume that Steorn motors work perpetually with no bad side effects. Given that, I'd like ideas presented on this list about the implications (there are plenty on the Steorn forum). I know this has been discussed before, but I'd like to re-visit the subject given the more specific data. I haven't been able to find the old lists, which were very creative. There are certainly many second order effects on the economy that are not obvious at first as this and other infinite energy technologies ripples out. What are the short term (transient) effects on the society of the sudden appearance of these devices? What would be good investments? What's your long term vision? In particular, I'm most interested in ideas that are so far outside consideration because of conventional engineering wisdom that they haven't even been considered before. Consider this an online "blue sky" meeting regarding free energy in general. Keep the ideas coming. Even a little niche market could be very successful. Some half-baked ideas from memory on previous lists (somewhat jocularly): Buying cheap land under high tension power lines. Selling energy stocks ( and the many subsidiary industry stocks) short. Starting filling station remodeling companies. Buying Neodymium (The Chinese have already cornered that market :-( ). Making retrofit car engines. Inventing heat dissipation technology for portable devices. Selling road and sidewalk heaters to melt snow in north east cities. Build perpetual hot air balloons. Selling power back to the power companies (~US$60.00 per day for a residential generator unit). Desalination plants. No more concern for energy efficiency in homes, vehicles -- the end of the insulation business. No more interest in the middle east at all -- let them go their own way. Extracting gold from sea water. Making gasoline from air and water. Disinfecting drinking and pool water by boiling it. Selling scrap power plant parts. Dismantling wind farms and hydro plants. Replace broadcast antenna towers with perpetually hovering helicopters. Completely new airplane designs where no fuel has to be onboard, and efficiency doesn't matter. Self heating soup cans. Self cooling soft drink cans. Car air conditioners and heaters that are on all the time. Send your car up into the air ( hot air balloon or helicopter rotor) or around the block 'til you call it back -- no parking places needed. Buildings supported by compressed air (should be more immune to earthquakes as well as cheaper). etc.... Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US http://HoytStearns.com ------=_NextPart_000_01F8_01C72924.BA881370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Some practical Steorn data:
 
According to my rough calculations, A 60 HP (45 KW) = Steorn=20 motor would be 9000 cm^3 ( 546 in^3 ) or 21 cm cube ( 8" cube ) or = 3" high=20 by 13.5" dia cylinder. The stated=20 power density implies a 60 HP motor would weight 6Kg (13 pounds)=20 . 
 
Let's assume that Steorn motors work perpetually = with no bad=20 side effects.
 
Given that,  I'd like ideas presented on this = list about=20 the implications (there are plenty on the Steorn forum).
I know this has been discussed before, but I'd like = to=20 re-visit the subject given the more specific data. I haven't been able = to find=20 the old lists, which were very creative.
There are certainly many second order effects on the = economy=20 that are not obvious at first as this and other infinite energy=20 technologies  ripples out.
 
What are the short term (transient) effects on the = society of=20 the sudden appearance of these devices?
What would be good investments?
What's your long term vision?
 
In particular, I'm most interested in ideas that are = so far=20 outside consideration because of  conventional engineering wisdom = that=20 they
haven't even been considered before. Consider = this an=20 online "blue sky" meeting regarding free energy in general.
Keep the ideas coming.  Even a little niche = market could=20 be very successful.
 
 
Some half-baked ideas from memory on previous=20 lists  (somewhat jocularly):
 
Buying cheap land under high tension power = lines.
Selling energy stocks ( and the many subsidiary = industry=20 stocks) short.
Starting filling station remodeling = companies.
Buying Neodymium  (The Chinese have already = cornered that=20 market :-( ).
Making retrofit car engines.
Inventing heat dissipation technology for portable=20 devices.
Selling road and sidewalk heaters to melt snow in = north east=20 cities.
Build perpetual hot air balloons.
Selling power back to the power companies (~US$60.00 = per day=20 for a residential generator unit).
Desalination plants.
No more concern for energy efficiency in homes, = vehicles --=20 the end of the insulation business.
No more interest in the middle east at all -- let = them go=20 their own way.
Extracting gold from sea water.
Making gasoline from air and water.
Disinfecting drinking and pool water by boiling=20 it.
Selling scrap power plant parts.
Dismantling wind farms and hydro = plants.
Replace broadcast antenna towers with perpetually = hovering=20 helicopters.
Completely new airplane designs where no fuel has to = be=20 onboard, and efficiency doesn't matter.
Self heating soup cans.
Self cooling soft drink cans.
Car air conditioners and heaters that are on all the = time.
Send your car up into the air ( hot air balloon or = helicopter=20 rotor) or around the block 'til you call it back -- no parking places=20 needed.
Buildings supported by compressed air (should be = more immune=20 to earthquakes as well as cheaper).
 
 
 
etc....
 
 
Hoyt = Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona = US
http://HoytStearns.com
 
 

------=_NextPart_000_01F8_01C72924.BA881370-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 20:36:42 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBR4aZ9w000315; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 20:36:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBR4aXE0000307; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 20:36:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 20:36:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=MnI7WusPGYiwioNBaXHufRo2RcbO7dyYYiKogxbqWQG7iAz0+7KJOPFouI1NcNi0; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 21:36:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94022f7251397428b6aca2624db7e24c984350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.191 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Save yourself a lot of expense, Stephen, get a reliable gasoline-fueled 2.5 - 5 KW genset and a 25 to 50 (345 lbs full) gallon propane tank and several extension heavy duty cords to reach the appliance you want to power as needed. With a needle valve you can bleed the low pressure propane gas into the gas engine air intake according to load demand. Otherwise a "wind-charger" and deep-cycle batteries for the long term. and.... http://www.invertersRus.com/ Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Save yourself a lot of expense, Stephen, get a reliable
gasoline-fueled 2.5 - 5 KW genset and a 25 to 50 (345 lbs full) gallon propane
tank and several extension heavy duty cords to reach the appliance
you want to power as needed. With a needle valve you can bleed
the low pressure propane gas into the gas engine air intake according
to load demand.
Otherwise a "wind-charger" and deep-cycle batteries for the long term.
 
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 07:59:39 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBRFxXYF029116; Wed, 27 Dec 2006 07:59:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBRFxQBs029088; Wed, 27 Dec 2006 07:59:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 07:59:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: mrYzFS0VM1kZXKaS9sn55D0iuAaxSVfG1g0_hl9qTkK1Lvzc28LrFflxM3xkzX2gIp26sIthepKW9.cn5.mx9HUmoYw9LgtTEKD.KGk73VaU.SuRWA65Z9KQnDjqSxcUV8QykFNdh5EKtZ_S4iziWIr94mRagLO12azfCBCyAw9zlGmhchHJ8wkjgxtm Message-ID: <4592985C.6080806 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 10:59:24 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy References: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > Save yourself a lot of expense, Stephen, get a reliable > gasoline-fueled 2.5 - 5 KW genset and a 25 to 50 (345 lbs full) gallon > propane > tank and several extension heavy duty cords to reach the appliance > you want to power as needed. With a needle valve you can bleed > the low pressure propane gas into the gas engine air intake according > to load demand. Say what? You run it on propane, with a manual adjustment of the amount going in? Freaky, I had no idea you could do that. My "issues" with a genset were that, first, we're a little reluctant to keep barrels of gasoline around the place, and, second, I hate to shell out big bucks for something that will only be useful in an emergency ... which may never come. In principle, at least, a grid-connected battery-backed-up solar panel rig could be used to run the house a good bit of the year, and if I live to be 115 or so it might even pay for itself. > Otherwise a "wind-charger" and deep-cycle batteries for the long term. > > and.... http://www.invertersRus.com/ That's amazing -- I had no idea a 3 KW inverter could be had for a few hundred bucks! As the wind charger -- we live in a woods, so I'm not sure how well it would work for us. (Maybe if it were on the roof?) But we have a south-facing sloped roof with no trees shading that side, which made the idea of solar panels seem appealing. But if it's going to take 250 years to recoup the cost difference versus some other approach, maybe solar cells are not such a hot idea... > > Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 09:15:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBRHFeAl020300; Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:15:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBRHFZYg020251; Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:15:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:15:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c729da$8cfe3db0$5c9d163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net> <4592985C.6080806@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternativeenergy Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:14:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternativeenergy > As the wind charger -- we live in a woods, so I'm not sure how well it > would work for us. (Maybe if it were on the roof?) But we have a > south-facing sloped roof with no trees shading that side, which made the > idea of solar panels seem appealing. But if it's going to take 250 years > to recoup the cost difference versus some other approach, maybe solar > cells are not such a hot idea... Why not build your own passive thermal collectors on the south-facing part of your roof, make a thermal shed with a few thousand gallons of water + lowtox antifreeze (in case something gets quite cold) insulated to a very high R factor, and use the passive collectors to heat water to just under the boiling point during the summer when there is a lot of Sun around, and then shunt this heated water through baseboard radiators (or something similar) to heat your home in the winter? You could use the passives to heat air, but IMHO heating water during the summer to act as a thermal battery is more attractive. This will pay for itself almost surely. If you do the work yourself, and don't chase super-high efficiency, it isn't that expensive. If I had a clear sky view of the south from my property (damn evergreens!) I would do this myself. Cut bills drastically, reduce use of fossil fuels (I don't use much, but still...), and great fun to build. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 09:30:33 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBRHUTGQ018872; Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:30:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBRHUKYL018787; Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:30:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:30:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JI6oAd7tj3CXe/ryRHndkgxp3ioQZ5juXX5ZZJuModGSuKC75A2O6t19uYuyw7MVwCruowTNP5v6a8MhoEITxuBc6Ss0GIAbIy9Cak7/NumkMptbNaS2bL+qgyDIVOGl35avXFCat0hGBDFvyF+Xgl7q/EqkEauHnzf3GNBJTo0= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:30:19 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy In-Reply-To: <4592985C.6080806 pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net> <4592985C.6080806@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: <5CVmv.A.flE.s2qkFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/27/06, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > That's amazing -- I had no idea a 3 KW inverter could be had for a few > hundred bucks! Careful, "modified sine wave" inverters can be quite noisy and will not run some loads. A "true sine wave" inverter at 3 kW will cost you upwards of a grand. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 10:56:24 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBRIuExE015141; Wed, 27 Dec 2006 10:56:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBRIu78q014921; Wed, 27 Dec 2006 10:56:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 10:56:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <033b01c729e8$e95ee3d0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net> <4592985C.6080806@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 19:57:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBRIu0F2014626 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen, it won't take that long if Nanosolar, mentioned by Terry in an earlier post, delivers as they seem poised to do since they have secured 100 million dollars of financing and are going into production in 2007, cf: http://www.nanosolar.com/articles.htm What they seem to have achieved in pre-production is awesome: durable and efficient inexpensive nano-ink printed aluminum foil PV panels which could pay for themselves in just a few months at standard electricity rates! Potentially the definitive answer to the world's energy problems if an inexpensive storage technology emerges too (supercaps, hydrogen?), and maybe even if it doesn't since peak electricity consumption is in daytime. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy ... > But we have a > south-facing sloped roof with no trees shading that side, which made the > idea of solar panels seem appealing. But if it's going to take 250 > years to recoup the cost difference versus some other approach, maybe > solar cells are not such a hot idea... ... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 15:47:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBRNlO4X004603; Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:47:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBRNlDgw004498; Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:47:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:47:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:46:27 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The diode array is in a slow start but if experiments can be funded and are successful than it would be the best choice. Dedicated power supplies could power pumps with the added advantage that pump motors sharing a circulating liquid heat transfer loop would be burnout resistant. Dedicated diode arrays would keep food refrigerated off the grid. Houses in Canada could be heated by diode arrays outside absorbing heat with rotary heat exchangers that would throw off ice and produce electricity for interior electric heating. Diode arrays may be speculative but being dismissed by academics on the grounds that the thermal noise of the load will cancel out the aggregated net rectified Johnson noise of billions of nanometer scale diodes is absurd. More information on the diode array can be found by Googling patent 3890161. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 21:22:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBS5MPeB008989; Wed, 27 Dec 2006 21:22:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBS5MGPN008910; Wed, 27 Dec 2006 21:22:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 21:22:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: D2Fusion Press Release Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:22:12 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20061220205727.02a8ab38 mail.newenergytimes.com> Importance: Normal X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yeah the mystery is why no one seems to want to believe the [Vo] nonsense is the culprit. -j -----Original Message----- From: Steven Krivit [mailto:steven1 newenergytimes.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 10:58 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: D2Fusion Press Release Has anybody solved the mystery of the missing subject line yet? I think it may have something to do with CAPS. The previous message I sent had this as the subject line: D2Fusion Press Release s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 21:22:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBS5MS6K009009; Wed, 27 Dec 2006 21:22:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBS5MMNj008952; Wed, 27 Dec 2006 21:22:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 21:22:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:22:14 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C72A0D.D786DDF0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <4588114F.9000902 pacbell.net> Importance: Normal X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" Resent-Message-ID: <0rxZSC.A.xLC.OS1kFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C72A0D.D786DDF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Appreciation shared if for no other reason but to challenge a review of the status quo. There are no absolutes (except change) and givens have always been postulates (not sure why they stopped being regarded as such). Accepting anything as unassailable is the hallmark of a lazy mind and a pariah of bad things to come. This 'multiplicity-effect-hypothesis' could also be an attempt to frame the vastness of our fishbowl in more of a bite size piece however.... 8^) Thanks Jones... most though provoking. Your never cease to amaze me. -john -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:21 AM To: vortex Subject: [Vo]: A "Hall of Mirrors" Universe ? >From the "believe it or not" department... and adding new meaning to the "World Cup" of soccer (as we Yanks like to call that hands-free, 12-sided-ball game). There is nothing scientific nor which has been proved to date, in all of cosmology and physics, to show that the Universe is extremely (or infinitely) large, nor even that it is a set old-age (13-15 billion years) nor even that it is expanding at all ! Nothing, zero, nada, nil! All we have for proof, as 2006 ends, is based on logical (human logic) inference (if not sound-and-fury from self-appointed experts) All of the above physical properties of the universe, including so-called "red-shift" are conjectures based on the premise (very understandable human logic) that what we see when we look into the vast reaches of space with a telescope (or from Hubble images) is the single *object itself.* Don't "duh" that part. It does seem logical at first to us humanoids, to assume this as a 'given', but in fact, it probably is NOT true... and most of what we see in telescopes is probably not the single object itself ! For instance, when we see a galaxy far removed and supposedly very old... instead of that being all there is to the story, what we see in that one instance may be but a *reflection* (one of many) of far fewer objects, each of which reflection is repeated many times throughout space, all showing differing red-shits and perspective of the same object, and varying according to the relative placement of the "virtual" mirror - which is gravitational curvature (and a 12-sided gravitational curvature "to boot"). Specifically, the very same object can be repeatedly seen, out in space, twelve times or much more but it is still a single entity. At least that is an emerging viewpoint (going back decades). This "alien" understanding (supra-human perspective) is gathering support - and more recently and has been bolstered by new analysis of CMB: http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/18/9/3 IOW when we look out and see a galaxy whose red-shift indicates that it is 10 billion light years removed - and in only one part of space ... well, that could be both true and false. In fact the same object may appear in twelve or twelve thousand different disguises, and one or more of those views may be blue-shifted ! This should not be misread to give solace to the anti-science spiel of so-called biblical creationism, as any object seen will still end up being very old (billions of years), not young (in the few thousand year range which right-wing zealots have try to portray as biblical, when instead such ancient text is merely allegorical). In fact the universe in this understanding need NOT be expanding at all - since our large "local group" of galaxies which is equivalent to thousands of Milky-Ways, is blue-shifted to us, and this local group may well be "all there is" except for secondary reflections - at least in this alien understanding of reality... ...and what is more - the idea of a single "big-bang" will be totally nullified. The universe will be smaller, older, static or nearly static (pulsating) and not infinite in size ! and most surprising - without an exact starting point like a single big bang. The Poincaré dodecahedral space mentioned in the article can be described as the interior of a 'sphere' made from 12 slightly curved pentagons. "However, there is one big difference between this shape and a football [soccer ball] because when one goes out from a pentagonal face, one immediately comes back inside the ball from the opposite face after a 36 degree rotation." "Such a multiply connected space can therefore generate multiple images of the same object, such as a planet or a photon. Other such well-proportioned, spherical spaces that fit the WMAP data are the tetrahedron and the octahedron." I find this emerging viewpoint of reality, as alien as it first may seem, to be very satisfying intellectually, after one becomes accustomed to the implications. Do others share that appreciation - or is the level of proof for this just too tenuous? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C72A0D.D786DDF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Appreciation shared if for no other reason but to challenge a = review of=20 the status quo.  There are no absolutes (except change) and = givens=20 have always been postulates (not sure why they stopped being regarded as = such).  Accepting anything as unassailable is the hallmark of = a lazy=20 mind and a pariah of bad things to come.
 
This=20 'multiplicity-effect-hypothesis' could also be an attempt to frame the = vastness=20 of our fishbowl in more of a bite size piece however.... 8^) =20
 
Thanks=20 Jones... most though provoking.  Your never cease to amaze me.=20
 
-john
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene=20 [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 = 10:21=20 AM
To: vortex
Subject: [Vo]:=20

A "Hall of Mirrors" Universe ? =

From=20 the "believe it or not" department... and adding new meaning to the = "World Cup"=20 of soccer (as we Yanks like to call that hands-free, 12-sided-ball=20 game).

There is nothing scientific nor which has been proved to = date, in=20 all of cosmology and physics, to show that the Universe is extremely (or = infinitely) large, nor even that it is a set old-age (13-15 billion = years) nor=20 even that it is expanding at all ! Nothing, zero, nada, nil! All we have = for=20 proof, as 2006 ends, is based on logical (human logic) inference (if not = sound-and-fury from self-appointed experts)

All of the above = physical=20 properties of the universe, including so-called "red-shift" are = conjectures=20 based on the premise (very understandable human logic) that what we see = when we=20 look into the vast reaches of space with a telescope (or from Hubble = images) is=20 the single *object itself.*

Don't "duh" that part. It does seem = logical=20 at first to us humanoids, to assume this as a 'given', but in fact, it = probably=20 is NOT true... and most of what we see in telescopes is probably not the = single=20 object itself !

For instance, when we see a galaxy far removed = and=20 supposedly very old... instead of that being all there is to the story, = what we=20 see in that one instance may be but a *reflection* (one of many) of far = fewer=20 objects, each of which reflection is repeated many times throughout = space, all=20 showing differing red-shits and perspective of the same object, and = varying=20 according to the relative placement of the "virtual" mirror - which is=20 gravitational curvature (and a 12-sided=20 gravitational curvature=20 "to boot").

Specifically, the very = same=20 object can be repeatedly seen, out in space, twelve times or much more = but it is=20 still a single entity.
 
At least that is an emerging = viewpoint=20 (going back decades). This "alien" understanding (supra-human = perspective) is=20 gathering support - and more recently and has been bolstered by new = analysis of=20 CMB:
http://physicsweb.or= g/articles/world/18/9/3

IOW=20 when we look out and see a galaxy whose red-shift indicates that it is = 10=20 billion light years removed - and in only one part of space ... well, = that could=20 be both true and false.

In fact the same object may appear in = twelve or=20 twelve thousand different disguises, and one or more of those views may = be=20 blue-shifted !

This should not be misread to give solace to the=20 anti-science spiel of so-called biblical creationism, as any object seen = will=20 still end up being very old (billions of years), not young (in the few = thousand=20 year range which right-wing zealots have try to portray as biblical, = when=20 instead such ancient text is merely allegorical).

In fact the = universe in=20 this understanding need NOT be expanding at all - since our large "local = group"=20 of galaxies which is equivalent to thousands of Milky-Ways, is = blue-shifted to=20 us, and this local group may well be "all there is" except for secondary = reflections - at least in this alien understanding of reality... =

...and=20 what is more - the idea of a single "big-bang" will be totally = nullified. The=20 universe will be smaller, older, static or nearly static (pulsating) and = not=20 infinite in size ! and most surprising - without an exact starting point = like a=20 single big bang.

The Poincar=E9 dodecahedral space mentioned in = the article=20 can be described as the interior of a 'sphere' made from 12 slightly = curved=20 pentagons. "However, there is one big difference between this shape and = a=20 football [soccer ball] because when one goes out from a pentagonal face, = one=20 immediately comes back inside the ball from the opposite face after a 36 = degree=20 rotation."

"Such a multiply connected space can therefore = generate=20 multiple images of the same object, such as a planet or a photon. Other = such=20 well-proportioned, spherical spaces that fit the WMAP data are the = tetrahedron=20 and the octahedron."

I find this emerging viewpoint of reality, = as alien=20 as it first may seem, to be very satisfying intellectually, after one = becomes=20 accustomed to the implications. Do others share that appreciation - or = is the=20 level of proof for this just too=20 tenuous?

Jones
 ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C72A0D.D786DDF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 04:03:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBSC32hk021620; Thu, 28 Dec 2006 04:03:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBSC2xIw021594; Thu, 28 Dec 2006 04:02:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 04:02:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=pLYb1G+vpIPErICoUOPbk9rycX1Qn8R9ZQmZg3hVECUj6HbbgYmHRBuikWSfh81S; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006124281223552 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 05:02:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b96ede3276ded8012fdba68c18d5c9aa350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.48 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Here you go Stephen, install a "boiler panel" on your rooftop to run this Scroll Expander Engine, which will be under that putative photo-voltaic miracle. You can run an ethanol-water antifreeze through the "boiler panel" and store the heat in insulated water tanks containing the propane "boiler pipes". Thus you don't need to buy $storage Batteries that run 15 watt-hours per pound at best. The Mitsubishi FX105V scroll compressor used as an expander motor on Propane with 110 deg F (204 PSIG) rejecting into 70 F (110 PSIG). Cheaper than the online $256.00 refurbished price, at an Auto-Recycler's yard. A QUICK EXPERIMENT: Two 5 gallon (20 LB) Propane bottles, One in 120 F water, the other in cooler water and the expander in the gas stream. Reverse the bottle hose connections until you can find a cheap condensate return pump. An automotive electric fuel pump can get up to 100 PSI. Since it already has a pulley and clutch on the front end, getting some numbers on power output shouldn't be too difficult. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-vapor-pressure-d_1020.html Photo: Disassembled Mitsubishi FX105V automotive AC compressor. http://www.redrok.com/images/fx105vsc.jpg Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Here you go Stephen, install a "boiler panel" on
your rooftop to run this Scroll Expander Engine, which
will be under that putative photo-voltaic miracle.
You can run an ethanol-water antifreeze through the "boiler panel"
and store the heat in insulated water tanks containing the propane "boiler
pipes". Thus you don't need to buy $storage Batteries that run
15 watt-hours per pound at best.
 
The Mitsubishi FX105V scroll compressor used as an expander motor on
Propane with 110 deg F (204 PSIG) rejecting into 70 F (110 PSIG).
 
Cheaper than the online $256.00 refurbished price, at an Auto-Recycler's yard.
 
A QUICK EXPERIMENT: Two 5 gallon (20 LB) Propane bottles,
One in 120 F water, the other in cooler water and the expander in the gas stream.
Reverse the bottle hose connections until you can find a cheap condensate
return pump. An automotive electric fuel pump can get up to 100 PSI.
Since it already has a pulley and clutch on the front end, getting some
numbers on power output shouldn't be too difficult.
 
 
Photo: Disassembled Mitsubishi FX105V automotive AC compressor.
 
 
Fred
 
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 08:20:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBSGKL0Q028701; Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:20:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBSGKIox028677; Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:20:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:20:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20061228162016.46737.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=Weh1IA/Oh+GhOvyBlb+kuXITiEjer1xiIyaL8xYff5ZySh5QEd4BJ352R575ajCQe7Q2DJVODSYgObs0dAigBuSRfEvl4VzK4yPafw0IP8ldCZKFI2UJBoqsZi6IR6PJPQuDDvj/hcC1w+S6BfRtNClK9SS9QOHKShQH0QUHeLc=; X-YMail-OSG: nzwV33AVM1nWaWQrngQcUhElPFrz_gT8wbO2LLez_x3YnPHYMeakZYgHUaDAorlEEw-- Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:20:16 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Upside down To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <90jro2h6i5vci1rf524a3po36b89t3pkaa 4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Robin Well the "upside-down" part is appropriate... > Furthermore, when it reaches the end of the line, and is only doing a single orbit for H[n=1/alpha], the group velocity of the electron is traveling at the speed of light, which is exactly what Mills predicts ... Well, there's the rub. At least according to the skeptics, and from day-one. Anything approaching this situation - (which can be restated as repeated doubling and redoubling of the group velocity of the electron)- would end up being endothermic, not exothermic. Therefore this cannot be correct, can it? ... since the electron has substantial mass; not only is pushing that much mass to lightspeed, or even close ... totally out of the question, since the electron would then have more mass-energy equivalent then the nucleus itself - but where would the energy required to do this - be coming from? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 08:39:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBSGclW7014050; Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:38:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBSGcj5R014026; Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:38:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:38:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=Na4J7zma6pWvIu0+uVsOyC0ztmh7soKoMxgqTOToFm6cT7m+MdfjJLeL4RY0wTFNzNza97hz6VS2yxvk1oiyoIuw0iC4iSxD5HkzM6DwnFfiMiRshAG52slyb51iNG6MG1v6OIWhikMLwYyvfS7aAJTxEyQBPWY0NAglQOZYIXk=; X-YMail-OSG: wFnhP6YVM1nRFlsChBnJZatmoNA9kXMkrJgmvUFAn9gaRjBQ5LWxkRkhT3nj_3JFc37DG2fWDzIkkwBUGBPhnB1UD4D3aOh2pgjqXXgcQ4ZybofFlIgAnJIz6FZ5_KymYHEgNUYcUrYLfxQ- Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:38:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <18957.96664.qm web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: The past year in Alternative Energy Status: O X-Status: The lead story in the MIT review: "Biowaste to ethanol could soon power cars." Needless to say - on Vortex we have rehashed the broader subject area in great detail over the years, with focus on the pro-and-con arguments - but it ususally requires the imprimatur of a name like MIT to quash some of the remnants of disinformation... ...and even now MIT is "behind the curve" ... (at least this tech-writer is) as the future is NOT exactly: biowaste --> ehtanol, but closer to biowatse --> fermented biodiesel (and that fuel labeled as biodiesel can include some percentage of mixed alcohols. Which alchohols BTW can include ethanol, methanol and especially butanol - the best alcohol to bio-engineer-for if you want to use only alcohol in an ICE). Here is their take: "Converting a vehicle to run primarily on ethanol costs just a couple of hundred dollars. But ethanol won't make much of a dent in gas use as long as the source of ethanol in the United States remains corn grain, which requires a lot of energy and land in order to grow. A much better alternative is cellulosic materials such as wood chips and switchgrass, which are both cheap to grow and require fewer natural resources. (See "Biomass: Hope and Hype.") In an effort to reduce the processing costs of these materials, researchers are genetically engineering organisms that can devour grasses and waste biomass, digest the complex sugars, and then transform the resulting simple sugars into alcohol. (See "Better Biofuels" and "Redesigning Life to Make Ethanol.") Already, advances in parts of this process have led to planned cellulosic-ethanol plants. (See "Making Ethanol from Wood Chips.") http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/17944/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 12:56:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBSKuJaB010226; Thu, 28 Dec 2006 12:56:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBSKuD7P010189; Thu, 28 Dec 2006 12:56:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 12:56:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20061228205612.93264.qmail web82712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=zngExelop96N5qpEhWDG84eXowpUf/H8w1PEqrQ4hwfQxPdd/xi2hpSXiA5luzNGoxc6Qj/cL803KyBWGBI9oBnPssWKiadPGwiH0IpsqDIIRYWOSzlJqLjD61xRCV8GvVBvdVQuogqCt+II4/t2Wwnb9p7TQlHVYYt2iQrZNd0=; X-YMail-OSG: P6GAmlcVM1lTAYG7ajN76MgwwbKSRXXRtRURK3Gx3GuzzGYKv59rU605weYvasuvzZMdf_9E3E8F2rsW9EfINJI1zE4enqcJuLwYhFzylTu.541SkCTVFiZ3tGdskKEgbTw3p.EJBWGY0lM- Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 12:56:12 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: elists jayel.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Inertia, Aspden & Angular Mo Status: O X-Status: Subject: Inertia, Aspden, Mills & Angular Momentum As Lord Wiki states, 'inertia' is a scientific principle and thus not quantifiable. In common usage, however, people employ the term loosely to refer to an object's resistance to change in velocity and sometimes to its momentum, depending on context (e.g. "this object has a lot of inertia"). "Inertia" is more properly understood as a shorthand for the principle described by Newton in his First Law ... or in even simpler terms, we can imply the idea of natural "continuity" - and can say that "a body at rest will remain at rest" and a "body moving with constant velocity will continue to do so, unless disturbed by an unbalanced force"... Yet ... of keen interest to the free-energy investigator is when slight repetitive alterations act on higher momentum systems, such that (to wax anthropomorphic, nature will "want" to preserve the 'status quo' even if it means shedding a tiny bit of mass-energy in the form of photons [or in the case of the Aspden effect, in the form of a "polarization of aether" ?] . For instance, UV photon being shed by hydrogen electrons ... and the hydrino effect of Mills. Or in the case of the Aspden effect, a flywheel which is easier to bring up to speed the second time, if one has not delayed too long. OK, as I was in the process of "upgrading" a previous essay by including the "Woodward effect" the following posting came in from the JNL forum, which is not normally known for physics erudition, but here is an insightful piece which is included in its entirety now, causing me to split and delay the rest of this posting until a later date. "Angular momentum" by: "Jeff L. Anderson" For some time, I've envisioned the quantum generation of photons as analogous to flinging a stone with an old-style sling. With a sling, the thrower whirls the stone in a pouch at the end of a cord(s), and flings the stone by releasing it from the pouch at just the right moment. Using this analogy, in the frame of reference (FOR) of the quantum function which generates a photon, the photon already has a velocity equal to the speed of light (C) before it leaves the frame. From an external FOR, the photon /instantly/ appears, traveling at C. This model allows me to visualize these events without the need for acceleration of a photon. Recently, I've had to think about a similar situation with angular acceleration in the macroscopic world. In engineering practical applications of the Woodward effect, the FOR of a spinning assembly changes its net external momentum when the Woodward effect causes one side of the assembly to experience a transient decrease in momentum, while simultaneously the opposite side experiences a transient increase in momentum. Externally, this change amounts to an impulse acceleration (linear acceleration) toward the side of increased momentum. *(The Woodward effect: James Woodward [Professor of Physics and History of Science at UC Fullerton], developed an interpretation of Mach's equations for inertia which permits transient changes in the inertia of a system. Experimental observations verified the changes in transient inertia, but public development of the technology has stopped. A Google search for "woodward, mach, inertia, gravity" will provide a sampling of the papers and web pages which discussed this effect. In most cases, you will need to view the Google cached information, because references to this technology have begun to disappear from the literature. I suspect that the effect has officially become a classified invention.) In my development efforts, these impulses occur at many locations around the periphery of the assembly, and, as the assembly spins, occur when each location lines up with an external reference. Thus the impulses all occur in the same direction from an external FOR, and the external (linear) acceleration quickly adds up. Why did I bring this up here? Because I've found that this technique uses the Woodward effect very efficiently, and because currently, any information on development of the Woodward effect disappears faster than written. END of Anderson's posting. Now, why would it be worthwhile to add (even more) confusion to an already confusing subject: inertia-angular-momentum in the context of Mills and Aspden (confusing both in terms of science and semantics)? Well - there is a decent chance that there exists a deeper level of connectivity between Woodward, Aspden and Mills - deeper then meets the eye - and all of these things can portend the long-awaited non-conservative OU state - which may (or may not) exist in that tiny niche where rotational kinetics and EM forces overlap via angular momentum - and hopefully a natural tendency to preserve angular momentum over and above preserving the laws of thermodynamics. More later, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 15:49:27 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBSNnJIj022902; Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:49:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBSNn89X022857; Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:49:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:49:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=RrjBGgCMCKHQX5ffPsZNJ3wSMBLCWlmKOaJdWQe67qgzJJWjHYX83MOEFsRLW1BfxyF5B33O7oo2mlw9EGrQh1Z94qEYkgP3ba81DQqHZOj//l6OO7tDSHRBD0YATiRlez16zgJmumkxn47vQ/5qa6K+F9/WbdlRk4HpVuInEKE= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:49:06 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Inertia, Aspden & Angular Mo In-Reply-To: <20061228205612.93264.qmail web82712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20061228205612.93264.qmail web82712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <1EXpqD.A.FlF.0fFlFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/28/06, Jones Beene wrote: > OK, as I was in the process of "upgrading" a previous > essay by including the "Woodward effect" the following > posting came in from the JNL forum, Interesting. So does the flux capacitor described here: http://www.woodwardeffect.com/ provide both thrust and torque since the reaction force is at a 45 degree angle to the two currents? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 23:25:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBT7Pt3t027303; Thu, 28 Dec 2006 23:25:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBT7PfvH027260; Thu, 28 Dec 2006 23:25:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 23:25:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: The past year in Alternative Energy Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 18:25:33 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <18957.96664.qm web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <18957.96664.qm web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 29 Dec 2006 07:25:37 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBT7PdAH027177 Resent-Message-ID: <7cXFL.A.4pG.1LMlFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:38:39 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] IOW they are engineering a new disease that will ravage all the Earth's plant life, and all crops, once it escapes the factory, which any one who has seen Jurassic Park ought to understand. >resources. (See "Biomass: Hope and Hype.") In an >effort to reduce the processing costs of these >materials, researchers are genetically engineering >organisms that can devour grasses and waste biomass, >digest the complex sugars, and then transform the >resulting simple sugars into alcohol. (See "Better >Biofuels" and "Redesigning Life to Make Ethanol.") >Already, advances in parts of this process have led to >planned cellulosic-ethanol plants. (See "Making >Ethanol from Wood Chips.") > >http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/17944/ Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 23:39:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBT7cpBh030961; Thu, 28 Dec 2006 23:38:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBT7coMA030940; Thu, 28 Dec 2006 23:38:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 23:38:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Upside down Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 18:38:43 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <90jro2h6i5vci1rf524a3po36b89t3pkaa 4ax.com> <20061228162016.46737.qmail@web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20061228162016.46737.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 29 Dec 2006 07:38:47 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBT7cmob030900 Resent-Message-ID: <-N5VM.A.WjH.KYMlFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:20:16 -0800 (PST): Hi Jones, [snip] >--- Robin >Well the "upside-down" part is appropriate... > > >> Furthermore, when it reaches the end of the line, >and is only doing a single orbit for H[n=1/alpha], the >group velocity of the electron is traveling at the >speed of light, which is exactly what Mills predicts >... > >Well, there's the rub. At least according to the >skeptics, and from day-one. Anything approaching this >situation - (which can be restated as repeated >doubling and redoubling of the group velocity of the >electron)- would end up being endothermic, not >exothermic. > >Therefore this cannot be correct, can it? ... since >the electron has substantial mass; not only is pushing >that much mass to lightspeed, or even close ... >totally out of the question, since the electron would >then have more mass-energy equivalent then the nucleus >itself - but where would the energy required to do >this - be coming from? >From the rest mass lost by proton and electron during shrinkage. Since the electron is continually losing rest mass, while it gains kinetic energy, there comes a point where the next level is unattainable. According to the first graph on my web page (http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html) this occurs about q=124 (p=124 to use Mills quantum numbers). However the exact level is irrelevant, for "home grown" Hydrinos, because fusion would occur long before then. The exception being Solar Hydrinos, because fusion on the Sun is paradoxically, much more difficult than here on Earth. That due to the scarcity of target nuclei. Poor Solar Hydrinos, all they ever have as neighbors is other protons. Regards, "Desperately seeking neutron" ;) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 05:05:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBTD5YIV017731; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 05:05:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBTD5WFD017715; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 05:05:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 05:05:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Subject: Re: [Vo]: green goo devours grasses To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:04:46 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I rarely get this alarmed. To the battle terminals. What safeguards do they think they have? Thanks Robin van Spaandonk Reference: From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Upside down Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 08:23:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C72B22.A41C0290"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C72B22.A41C0290 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001A_01C72B22.A41F0FD0" ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C72B22.A41F0FD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Jones wrote.. Therefore this cannot be correct, can it? ... since >the electron has substantial mass; not only is pushing >that much mass to lightspeed, or even close ... >totally out of the question, since the electron would >then have more mass-energy equivalent then the nucleus >itself - but where would the energy required to do >this - be coming from? Robin posted an interesting thought >From the rest mass lost by proton and electron during shrinkage. Since = the electron is continually losing rest mass, while it gains kinetic energy, = there comes a point where the next level is unattainable. According to the = first graph on my web page (http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html) = this occurs about q=3D124 (p=3D124 to use Mills quantum numbers). However the = exact level is irrelevant, for "home grown" Hydrinos, because fusion would occur = long before then. Howdy Vorts, Robin's math demonstrates my thoughts that science lacks the mathematics = to take fusion to the next level. Pure conjecture on my part that... = magnetics are poorly understood and the pivital role played by magnetics = in balancing Robin's equation cannot be fully stated as confirmed by = Robins math. One of the design tasks we envision in our water vortex apparatus is = make a series of "throats" similar to the old "Gibson formula" for = venturis that would both accelerate and expand the fluid flow. Stacking = the vortex may produce the same result as pulsation and /or lend support = to Robin's thoughts. An alternate thought we have is to use expanders similar to the "Lazell = flow nozzle" that produces the opposite effectas the Gibson throat. = Since nuclear physics is not our forte, we must rely on fluid hydraulics = to achieve what little progress we make in water treatment. Imagine an acceleration of fluid flow beyond so called terminal velocity = of water. This may be possible using a combination of socalled "ejector throats". If these velocities can be achieved, do they have an = application for study of light or heavy H ? hmmm. The vortex group offers us a constant stimulation of thought. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C72B22.A41F0FD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
Jones wrote..
 
Therefore this cannot be correct, can it? ... since
>the = electron has=20 substantial mass; not only is pushing
>that much mass to = lightspeed, or=20 even close ...
>totally out of the question, since the electron=20 would
>then have more mass-energy equivalent then the=20 nucleus
>itself - but where would the energy required to = do
>this -=20 be coming from?
 
Robin posted an interesting thought

From the rest mass lost = by=20 proton and electron during shrinkage. Since the
electron is = continually=20 losing rest mass, while it gains kinetic energy, there
comes a point = where=20 the next level is unattainable. According to the first graph
on my = web page=20 (http://us= ers.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html)=20 this
occurs about q=3D124 (p=3D124 to use Mills quantum numbers). = However the=20 exact level
is irrelevant, for "home grown" Hydrinos, because fusion = would=20 occur long before
then.
 
Howdy Vorts,
 
Robin's math demonstrates my thoughts that science lacks the = mathematics to=20 take fusion to the next level. Pure conjecture on my part that... = magnetics are=20 poorly understood and the pivital role played by magnetics in balancing = Robin's=20 equation cannot be fully stated as confirmed by Robins math.
One of the design tasks we envision in our water vortex apparatus = is make a=20 series of "throats" similar to the old "Gibson formula" for venturis = that would=20 both accelerate and expand the fluid flow. Stacking the vortex may = produce the=20 same result as pulsation and /or lend support  to = Robin's=20 thoughts.
An alternate thought we have is to use expanders similar to the = "Lazell=20 flow nozzle" that produces the opposite effectas the Gibson throat. = Since=20 nuclear physics is not our forte, we must rely on fluid hydraulics to = achieve=20 what little progress we make in water treatment.
Imagine an acceleration of fluid flow beyond so=20 called terminal velocity of water. This may be possible using = a=20 combination of socalled
"ejector throats". If these velocities can be achieved, do they = have an=20 application for study of light or heavy H ? hmmm.
The vortex group offers us a constant stimulation of thought.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C72B22.A41F0FD0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C72B22.A41C0290 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001801c72b54$ee425400$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C72B22.A41C0290-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 07:38:36 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBTFcSum011029; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 07:38:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBTFcNXu010982; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 07:38:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 07:38:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=oF3IUQLpPKKNglS6rKurp+8iAlU1s2kHPTWH0w6iNgc9ZpIUJvkJJeCZ/3R091pMdVYWRQgesRuZw+2NznkVrjTfRoUop4/21Htle5hUYZ+onej8KvsNc892jsNZfhJwMnODDNnkT71Btw6e158pa7pfYSoKaCvr3MN/0l8qIfg= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 10:38:20 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <5lT8PD.A.drC.uZTlFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Rare Earth Elements Status: O X-Status: An interesting report from the USGS: http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2002/fs087-02/ Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 07:55:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBTFtdxs002654; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 07:55:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBTFtUg7002552; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 07:55:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 07:55:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=FOf/YHSoSYdDpKuYnf9hPhc6Ftvo3uOewWeMj9WT2AlwyEv8y/IMIGdtxgDWyc+E95VWQvzh9nMhDE5xUpRIW2Ki4kMOVALz3Q8CDlnE+Pf02xspjIjEMK1GIHKwnhVI/R3O/bE+/VhcGolYFSo+9piFQD36Xspm+Q2Vcdw3CAw=; X-YMail-OSG: NB62g9kVM1lR85u8LA.H6X.Jsb8X5H4SMntsPryIDUjnCr8TKDnKWMLC_4va2fq7qdOIysibxFOufKz.FjoLd2deqabwdWk1l5_Ejbw1P6GIs2EKjDjlpoDkaX_PSMSbSWo50zUm496yDR8- Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 07:55:26 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Inertia, Aspden & Angular Mo To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20061228205612.93264.qmail web82712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <72742.95292.qm web82713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Part II Previously the suggestion was made: > there is a decent chance that there exists a deeper level of connectivity between Woodward, Aspden and Mills - deeper then meets the eye - and all of these things can portend the long-awaited non-conservative OU state - which may (or may not) exist in that tiny niche where rotational kinetics and EM forces overlap via angular momentum - and hopefully a natural tendency to preserve angular momentum over and above preserving the laws of thermodynamics. This post is probably going to be three parts, because before proceeding with more details to flesh out that speculative theory - and given that Vo's strongly prefer to think about actual experiments instead - here is a possible application of how to apply the above in an prototype device. Firstly - to pull this off, we want to provide a very high speed rotating mechanical/electrical hybrid system in which the kinetic forces are somehow being "switched" to EM forces - a kind of trickery, as it were. The simplest system would be a high speed rotating cathode, using the electron mass and centrifugal/centripetal force to create a voltage potential. The compressed air machine in you garage can probably spin a cathode to a quarter million RPM - or better yet: cannibalize an old dentists drill. However, it turns out that a number of inventors have tried something similar and it doesn't work as planned - at least for the naive case, even at very high g forces. There is speculation that the electron does not "feel" gravity and inertia in the same way as does atomic mass. So -- how can you pull this off using atomic mass and converting that into charge at lesser energy input then if using the normal thermal or chemical route of manipulating ionization potential? One possibility would be using a proton conductor as a high speed rotating electrode and supply it with hydrogen - hoping that only the proton would accelerate away from the outer surface, leaving a voltage differential. However, the chances are that unless the rotating electrode was strongly nonconductive electrically, any emerging protons at the surface would strongly attract electrons and carry them along as neutral molecular hydrogen, which can form in picoseconds. It might even transfer slight negative charge, counter-intuitively. IOW hydrogen is probably too mobile for this to work but it turns out that a candidate material which can be "mechanically" ionized almost "for free" in metallic sodium. Nasty stuff, and this probably eliminates most garage experiments. That is too bad because Ford/NASA and others have spend millions perfecting a good sodium ion conductor for use in batteries and AMTEC. Sodium beta-alumina ceramics are a family of oxides that exhibits a fast-ionic conductivity satisfactory for electrochemical cells: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-alumina_solid_electrolyte .. would the material work for a high-speed electrode - where the goal is to convert g-forces into charge (non-conservatively) ? Probably not, but it would be nice to know if anyone has actually tried to do it... especially since the device could be arranged in a multipactor or three electrode configuration (in the original Farnsworth sense), and the mental image of this mechanical-to-electic arrangement "looks" to be synergetically promising in the multipactor setup . Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 08:35:34 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBTGZOKo031349; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 08:35:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBTGZMsv031330; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 08:35:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 08:35:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061229113004.03f83718 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 11:35:17 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Rare Earth Elements In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >An interesting report from the USGS: > >http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2002/fs087-02/ Well written, too. You have to hand it to these federal researchers. They get to the point and relate the unvarnished facts. The people at the Energy Information Administration also write well and they publish loads of useful information. See: http://www.eia.doe.gov/ I assume most of this data comes from industry sources, but it looks like they double check it to be sure it adds up. They do not try to cover up rough estimates or corrections, either. Data for recent years are often revised, with footnotes noting the revision. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 12:47:29 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBTKlGCS006539; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 12:47:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBTKlBOg006527; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 12:47:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 12:47:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=XfFw7RaBbx65BYICcRPbN3oPWKjwSKTm5jfVbuOC/1tS+koWikL5HFZzSCx9HtFD; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <32733012.1167425227135.JavaMail.root elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 12:47:06 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8f0130e476a1b36961e7f8842ba6b293ecd0c042b896368d8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.49 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday December 29, 2006 Status: O X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Dec 29, 2006 12:19 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday December 29, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 29 Dec 06 Washington, DC 1. VIRGINS AND DRAGONS: DO YOU THINK WE MAKE THIS STUFF UP? Your letters are important to us, but this week we fell behind in answering the mail, for which we apologize. Since most of the mail this week was about the Komodo virgin, I propose to respond collectively. Half the e-mails assumed that I don't know squat about Ineffabilis Deus, issued by Pope Pius IX in 1854. That's not so; it's Latin for "Ineffable God," I just don't know what "ineffable" means. Anyway, Ineffabilis Deus propounds the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, which gives the Blessed Virgin Mary a pass on original sin. It doesn't say anything about Komodo Dragon moms, but I don't think they've ever been accused of eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Other mail politely pointed out that the offspring of parthenogenesis must be female, otherwise where would they get a Y chromosome? But that's not so either. Komodo Dragons aren't on the XY system. They're on the WZ system, in which WZ is female, ZZ is male, and WW is inviable. Parthenogenic Komodos are either male or they don't make it. 2. HOLIDAY STORY: THE CONTRIBUTION OF GUT BACTERIA TO OBESITY. According to the cover story in this week's issue of Nature, there's an association between the bacteria that inhabit our gut and the regulation of body weight. Jeffrey Gordon and his colleagues at Washington University in St. Louis found that some intestinal microbes are more efficient at producing simple sugars and fatty acids for the gut to absorb. This is timely news. An earlier report in the New England Journal of Medicine found the average weight gain over a six week period from Thanksgiving through New Year's Day to be 0.9 pounds. If retained, that would just about account for the average weight gain through adulthood. 3. EARTHQUACKS: SCIENTISTS IN CHINA OBSERVED BEHAVING STRANGELY. On Tuesday, an earthquake that shook southern Taiwan damaged undersea cables and disrupted communications across Asia. It's not clear just what scientists at the earthquake bureau in nearby Nanning in southern China saw, but two days AFTER the quake they told The China Daily that snakes can sense a quake up to five days before it happens. How do they know this? The reptiles "behave erratically." To observe this behavior they installed cameras at a local snake farm to monitor the snakes 24/7. The director of the bureau said snakes can sense a quake up to five days before it happens. "Of all the creatures on the earth," the director said, "snakes are the most sensitive to earthquakes." To test this claim I've started monitoring the erratic behavior of Washingtonians from my office window. My initial assessment is that there are far more earthquakes than anyone realizes. 4. BEST WISHES FOR 2007: WE PREDICT IT WILL BE AN IMPROVEMENT. In any case, What'S New will be back to take a look. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 13:18:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBTLIYm5026145; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:18:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBTLIV77026116; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:18:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:18:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: green goo devours grasses Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 08:18:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 29 Dec 2006 21:18:09 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBTLIOf1025911 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to 's message of Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:04:46 +0000: Hi Charlie, [snip] >I rarely get this alarmed. To the battle terminals. What >safeguards do they think they have? There is no such thing. Once it exists, the chance that it will "escape" and contaminate the biosphere is almost 100%. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 13:31:13 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBTLV0ce020063; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:31:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBTLUxW2020048; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:30:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:30:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Rare Earth Elements Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 08:30:44 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 29 Dec 2006 21:30:43 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id kBTLUlHi019971 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Fri, 29 Dec 2006 10:38:20 -0500: Hi, >An interesting report from the USGS: > >http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2002/fs087-02/ > >Terry The solution to shortages of *any* elements might be www.proton21.com.ua . Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 13:33:12 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBTLX1pa020792; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:33:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBTLWxXT020772; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:32:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:32:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061229162533.040763c0 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 16:32:55 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: green goo devours grasses In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >I rarely get this alarmed. To the battle terminals. What > >safeguards do they think they have? > >There is no such thing. >Once it exists, the chance that it will "escape" and contaminate the biosphere >is almost 100%. Not good. However, I think most domesticated species are weak, and cannot compete in the wild. For example, when you plant domesticated corn (maize) in the wild and you do not weed it or tend it, I believe it usually dies out. You might say maize devotes to many resources to making large seeds, which then fall too close to the plant. It is kind of like what happens when you leave a domesticated miniature dog in the woods to fend for itself. With any luck, the green goo agent will also be weak, but who knows. It is pretty darn irresponsible making such things in the first place. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 13:36:03 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBTLZqWa022677; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:35:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBTLZolp022658; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:35:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:35:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061229163517.0427b948 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 16:35:47 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Rare Earth Elements In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >The solution to shortages of *any* elements might be www.proton21.com.ua . These people published a paper in ICCF10. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/AdamenkoSexperiment.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 13:40:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBTLeZKX009133; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:40:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBTLeVF9009100; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:40:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:40:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday December 29, 2006 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 08:40:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <32733012.1167425227135.JavaMail.root elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <32733012.1167425227135.JavaMail.root elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 29 Dec 2006 21:40:10 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBTLeAoB009008 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Akira Kawasaki's message of Fri, 29 Dec 2006 12:47:06 -0800 (GMT-08:00): Hi, [snip] >3. EARTHQUACKS: SCIENTISTS IN CHINA OBSERVED BEHAVING STRANGELY. >On Tuesday, an earthquake that shook southern Taiwan damaged >undersea cables and disrupted communications across Asia. It's >not clear just what scientists at the earthquake bureau in nearby >Nanning in southern China saw, but two days AFTER the quake they >told The China Daily that snakes can sense a quake up to five >days before it happens. How do they know this? The reptiles >"behave erratically." To observe this behavior they installed >cameras at a local snake farm to monitor the snakes 24/7. The >director of the bureau said snakes can sense a quake up to five >days before it happens. "Of all the creatures on the earth," the >director said, "snakes are the most sensitive to earthquakes." >To test this claim I've started monitoring the erratic behavior >of Washingtonians from my office window. My initial assessment >is that there are far more earthquakes than anyone realizes. [snip] The entire body of a snake is in contact with the ground, and my guess is that they have developed extremely sensitive vibration detectors, in order to help them locate their prey. Not to mention sophisticated "software" to analyze the information, so it comes as no surprise to me that they would become "agitated" when the "prey" appears to be underground, and *very* large. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 13:44:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBTLiNK1010873; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:44:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBTLiL0t010856; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:44:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:44:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: green goo devours grasses Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 08:44:20 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0s2bp2pd8itbbpbriagseh4nj3m2g02lnl 4ax.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20061229162533.040763c0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061229162533.040763c0 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 29 Dec 2006 21:44:20 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBTLiKm2010837 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 29 Dec 2006 16:32:55 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Not good. However, I think most domesticated species are weak, and >cannot compete in the wild. For example, when you plant domesticated >corn (maize) in the wild and you do not weed it or tend it, I believe >it usually dies out. You might say maize devotes to many resources to >making large seeds, which then fall too close to the plant. It is >kind of like what happens when you leave a domesticated miniature dog >in the woods to fend for itself. > >With any luck, the green goo agent will also be weak, but who knows. >It is pretty darn irresponsible making such things in the first place. [snip] There is also the virtual certainty that natural viruses will pick up the new genes, and transfer them into other organisms in the wild. If nature can find a way for a life form to benefit from the genes, then they *will* be used. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 14:01:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBTM0tIs023751; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 14:00:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBTM0rC9023727; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 14:00:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 14:00:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <003001c72b94$c57fcdf0$93027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 16:00:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002C_01C72B62.7A0955D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <4_I1TB.A.myF.VAZlFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Inertia,Aspden& Angular Mo Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C72B62.7A0955D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002D_01C72B62.7A0955D0" ------=_NextPart_001_002D_01C72B62.7A0955D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. So -- how can you pull this off using atomic mass and converting that into charge at lesser energy input then if using the normal thermal or chemical route of manipulating ionization potential? =20 Howdy Jones, Interesting question. Consider the thermal updrafts that occur during = huge forest fires. I have noticed TV news live vid of vertical vortex = forming that eyeball measure some 5000 ft high. In an instant of 1 to 3 = seconds , a fire cone accelerates up the vortex. I have noticed this in = several vids of forest fires in extreme mountanous terrain. Calculating = the eyeball height of the cone and the time duration makes the fire = travel some 2500- 5000 feet per second.... Naw !, It can't be... = Something is taking place I don't understand. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002D_01C72B62.7A0955D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..

So -- how can you pull this off using atomic mass and
converting = that into=20 charge at lesser energy input
then if using the normal thermal or = chemical=20 route of
manipulating ionization potential? 

Howdy Jones,

Interesting question. Consider the thermal updrafts that occur during = huge=20 forest fires. I have noticed TV news live vid of vertical vortex forming = that=20 eyeball measure some 5000 ft high. In an instant of 1 to 3 seconds , a = fire cone=20 accelerates up the vortex. I have noticed this in several vids of forest = fires=20 in extreme mountanous terrain. Calculating the eyeball height of the = cone and=20 the time duration makes the fire travel some 2500- 5000 feet per = second.... Naw=20 !, It can't be...  Something is taking place I don't = understand.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_002D_01C72B62.7A0955D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C72B62.7A0955D0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002b01c72b94$c495e320$93027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C72B62.7A0955D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 15:55:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBTNte0w004528; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 15:55:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBTNtYO1004483; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 15:55:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 15:55:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Inertia,Aspden& Angular Mo Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 10:55:09 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <003001c72b94$c57fcdf0$93027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <003001c72b94$c57fcdf0$93027841 xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 29 Dec 2006 23:55:14 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBTNtFRX004413 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Fri, 29 Dec 2006 16:00:35 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Interesting question. Consider the thermal updrafts that occur during huge forest fires. I have noticed TV news live vid of vertical vortex forming that eyeball measure some 5000 ft high. In an instant of 1 to 3 seconds , a fire cone accelerates up the vortex. I have noticed this in several vids of forest fires in extreme mountanous terrain. Calculating the eyeball height of the cone and the time duration makes the fire travel some 2500- 5000 feet per second.... Naw !, It can't be... Something is taking place I don't understand. [snip] Footage I have seen of forest fires on TV has never shown a flame more than twice the height of the trees. 2500-5000 feet is up in the clouds. Can you find an instance of the coverage that you refer to on the web? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 18:26:10 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBU2Q6aq031183; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 18:26:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBU2Pu18031142; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 18:25:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 18:25:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001401c72bb9$a1b730f0$93027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <003001c72b94$c57fcdf0$93027841 xptower> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Inertia,Aspden& Angular Mo Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 20:24:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Fri, 29 Dec 2006 16:00:35 -0600: > Hi, > [snip] >>Interesting question. Consider the thermal updrafts that occur during huge >>forest fires. I have noticed TV news live vid of vertical vortex forming >>that eyeball measure some 5000 ft high. In an instant of 1 to 3 seconds , >>a fire cone accelerates up the vortex. I have noticed this in several vids >>of forest fires in extreme mountanous terrain. Calculating the eyeball >>height of the cone and the time duration makes the fire travel some 2500- >>5000 feet per second.... Naw !, It can't be... Something is taking place >>I don't understand. > [snip] > Footage I have seen of forest fires on TV has never shown a flame more > than > twice the height of the trees. 2500-5000 feet is up in the clouds. > Can you find an instance of the coverage that you refer to on the web? > > Howdy Robin, I have seen this event twice. Once the past year during a Colorado forest fire.. I can't find it but it was the one the lady forest ranger set. I calculated the height of the adjacent mountain terrain. The fire on the side down between the rugged slopes had to be between 2500 to 5000 feet change below the peaks. A funnel type vortex would form and the flame would shoot straight up above the peaks.. weird to witness... the thing that caught my attention was the velocity of the vertical flame inside the vortex. The flame would suddenly shoot up inside the vortex in 1-3 seconds. wow Since that time I have asked if anyone fighting a fire of this type had ever witnessed an event of this type.. One mentioned they have seen such and it was accompanied by a whirling noise like a banshee. so much for things that go bump in the night. It gave us the idea for trying to achieve acceleration of a vortex. Some time back a guy bamed Bull invented a horwitzer that could shoot 250 or more miles. He used a series of ejector throats feeding into the next series of ejector throats. The gun barrel was some 150 feet long.. One was found in Iraq during the Gulf War. Iraq was planning to shell Isreal by lobbing a projectile into the near space.Try to imagine the muzzle velocity. We will be testing a series of "throats" with the hope we may achieve some acceleration of the vortex funnel.. hmmm.. fun stuff. Richard. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 19:14:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBU3EqvI009462; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 19:14:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBU3EhFd009432; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 19:14:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 19:14:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=I6gPm+hnrLBNUUa01qjGeY4yIBmtnDWrl6WlXyobjeHMQ78KjmMfS3FaVL6Kx/9kHl6febMAdIY9/+fkSLAOOiOBmjC0DaUmLFQagbhbpytreOKjBdEHbyNj8CxGBthjuIEKiGXhzPF95RKGRMWwqLAQsRYZEhOY2h+Vgt9Tbb4= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:14:40 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Inertia,Aspden& Angular Mo In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <003001c72b94$c57fcdf0$93027841 xptower> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/29/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Footage I have seen of forest fires on TV has never shown a flame more than > twice the height of the trees. 2500-5000 feet is up in the clouds. > Can you find an instance of the coverage that you refer to on the web? http://ultimatechase.com/Press_Releases/December_2006.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 22:08:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBU68mVQ017250; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:08:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBU67gL8016874; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:07:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:07:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Inertia,Aspden& Angular Mo Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 17:07:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <003001c72b94$c57fcdf0$93027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 30 Dec 2006 06:07:36 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBU67apW016854 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:14:40 -0500: Hi, [snip] >On 12/29/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> Footage I have seen of forest fires on TV has never shown a flame more than >> twice the height of the trees. 2500-5000 feet is up in the clouds. >> Can you find an instance of the coverage that you refer to on the web? > >http://ultimatechase.com/Press_Releases/December_2006.htm Very cool! (or is that "hot" ;) This seems to be a mini tornado resulting from the heat of the fire in a constricted space, with a burning vapor sucked up in the vortex, and fueling it as it goes. In this case there seems to be a volatile liquid on the surface of the lake. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 22:10:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBU6AnZS017849; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:10:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBU6AiqW017820; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:10:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:10:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Inertia,Aspden& Angular Mo Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 17:10:35 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <003001c72b94$c57fcdf0$93027841 xptower> <001401c72bb9$a1b730f0$93027841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001401c72bb9$a1b730f0$93027841 xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 30 Dec 2006 06:10:41 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBU6AfU2017798 Resent-Message-ID: <3CeQx.A.YWE.kLglFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Fri, 29 Dec 2006 20:24:27 -0600: Hi, [snip] > We will be testing a series of "throats" with the hope we may achieve some >acceleration of the vortex funnel.. hmmm.. fun stuff. [snip] Isn't this going to result in explosive decompression of the water in the vortex making it vaporize? (Just a vague memory). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 23:28:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBU7SR3X013696; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 23:28:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBU7SHEi013665; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 23:28:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 23:28:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <459614F7.30402 usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 01:27:51 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5MWvAD.A.ZVD.RUhlFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Puthoff's EVO paper Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians; I noted that someone posted a link to one of Hal Puthoff's papers on the subject of EVO's. I decided to write a review of it, with ? following things that I don't understand. I did a search under Puthoff and exotic vacuum objects. The page that came up featured Frank Tipler's paper on an anti matter generator. Below that was the link to Hal's paper. I'm strictly an applications guy, so I read the paper several times. I'm wondering what quantum dots are? He mentions power density EVO's and references Ken Shoulder's patent, I'm wondering what is power density? Finally he mentions EVO's use in conjunction with fusion containment. I'd gotten the same idea from reading the Shoulder's patent. The idea of using EVO's to induce fusion between boron and tungsten occurred to me. I mentioned the idea to Hal. Later Hal mentions high density charge containment. He mentions magnetic pinch, which I assume involves standard EM induced fields. Hal then mentions a soliton like localized wave. I read about solitons, I believe that they are Rayleigh waves? I believe that the light spots that show up on the bottom of swimming pools when the sun shines on the rippling surface are an example? Bow waves and tsunamis are another example. Hal mentions plasma-EM wave interactions, is that what induces the solitons? Hal goes on to mention Van der Walls and Casimir forces as candidates, he is talking about bending (deforming) the ZPE. I assume that this is an attempt to extract energy from it. This can be produced by metallic boundaries or dielectric boundaries? I remember Toby Grotz's failed attempt to extract energy from a device with closely spaced plates. I believe that this effort was inspired by Hal. Hal mentions Casimir's belief that a shell model II? could allow for the total shielding of interior fields? up to some cut off frequency. Hal's mathematics go to define these parameters. Such fields could then, in principal, be shielded from an interior space? by sufficiently large charge distribution. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 23:42:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBU7gTTV017184; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 23:42:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBU7gRYC017168; Fri, 29 Dec 2006 23:42:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 23:42:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4596184B.90105 usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 01:42:03 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Inertia,Aspden& Angular Mo References: <003001c72b94$c57fcdf0$93027841 xptower> <001401c72bb9$a1b730f0$93027841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001401c72bb9$a1b730f0$93027841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4gRirD.A.HME.jhhlFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > . > It gave us the idea for trying to achieve acceleration of a vortex. > Some time back a guy bamed Bull invented a horwitzer that could shoot > 250 or more miles. He used a series of ejector throats feeding > People's Broadcasting Service did a Nova segment on the Bull Gun. They were shooting from north of the Canadian boarder into Mexico. Unfortunately for Dr. Bull, he wasn't bullet proof, somebody, presumably the Mosad eliminated him. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 01:42:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBU9gKCY016583; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 01:42:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBU9gHZO016562; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 01:42:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 01:42:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=BbteJorOSe/800OpDNRgNCq+D78Kw+Q/zJMd3kigZHH/LKNWi7p7UiUQuFU4y0Ia; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006126309426372 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 02:42:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940414ddd6247bfa0859f49ca5eedc2dbdd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.118 Resent-Message-ID: <_Os0EC.A.qCE.5RjlFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Contact Potential, Capacitors and Light Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Given that no current flows due to contact potential between dissimilar metals; 1, will the contact potential charge a capacitor? 2, will photons striking one of the metals of the metal couple charge a capacitor connected across it? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Given that no current flows due to contact potential
between dissimilar metals;
 
1, will the contact potential charge a capacitor?
 
2, will photons striking one of the metals of
the metal couple charge a capacitor connected
across it?
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 06:16:30 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBUEGQVb026741; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 06:16:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBUEGJXE026720; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 06:16:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 06:16:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <003001c72c1d$0e226f80$75027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 08:15:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002C_01C72BEA.BE9E5E60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <5UlWi.A.XhG.zSnlFB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Richard's Rube Goldberg's Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C72BEA.BE9E5E60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002D_01C72BEA.BE9FE500" ------=_NextPart_001_002D_01C72BEA.BE9FE500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankRobin wrote.. > We will be testing a series of "throats" with the hope we may achieve = some=20 >acceleration of the vortex funnel.. hmmm.. fun stuff. [snip] Isn't this going to result in explosive decompression of the water in = the vortex making it vaporize? (Just a vague memory). Howdy Robin, You sure are an observant cuss from down under. . Visualize the test setup. A housing ( 4" clear PVC pipe section) = surrounding the water vortex with an eyewall center of approx 3/4" dia. = The pipe section is actually a series of flanged segments ( = interchangeable) that allows us to "insert" various segments for = combinations of tests.An example of a segment may have embedded 1'/2" = dia neodym magnets ( 200ea) flush with ID and positioned in a series of = circular spirals. Another segment has a double spiral cone shaped = springs ( one Iron, one aluminun) for connecting to a 48 VDC power to = provide a voltage curtain.Another segment has a electro mag( stator) = Other segments have the venturi throats and expanders( Lazell type). = The drive unit is a 25 HP motor 3450RPM connected to 1: 3 sheave setup = belt drive. Using a VFD drive we can vary the speed from zero to 10,500 = rpm. We should be able to accelerate without separating the column ( = vertical vortex) but another test will be to determine what happens if = a separation occurs. May produce pulsation if we can get the Lazell = expander to co-operate plus the rotating distributor can be configured = with sufficent cavities( perhaps 9 to 11) that can produce harmonics = assisting a pulsation. Overall, the purpose behind the never ending tests is to cause = molecular changes to take place in the mineral content of seawater = sufficent to allow a reduction in mineral content of the water prior to = entering the reverse osmosis train prefilters with the added benefit of = changing the salt to a form of marble suitable for disposal.=20 Heck, why dream of little things.. make it the moon! Richard=20 ------=_NextPart_001_002D_01C72BEA.BE9FE500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Robin wrote..

> We will be testing a series of "throats" with the hope we may = achieve=20 some
>acceleration of the vortex funnel.. hmmm.. fun=20 stuff.
[snip]
Isn't this going to result in explosive = decompression of the=20 water in the vortex
making it vaporize? (Just a vague memory).

Howdy Robin,

You sure are an observant cuss from down under. <grin>.

Visualize the test setup. A housing ( 4" clear PVC pipe section) = surrounding=20 the water vortex with an eyewall center of approx 3/4" dia. The pipe = section is=20 actually a series of flanged segments ( interchangeable) that allows us = to=20 "insert" various segments for combinations of tests.An example of a = segment may=20 have embedded 1'/2" dia neodym magnets ( 200ea) flush with ID and = positioned in=20 a series of circular spirals. Another segment has a double spiral cone = shaped=20 springs ( one Iron, one aluminun) for connecting to a 48 VDC power to = provide a=20 voltage curtain.Another segment has a electro mag( stator) Other = segments have=20 the venturi throats and expanders( Lazell type).  The drive = unit is a=20 25 HP motor 3450RPM connected to 1: 3 sheave setup belt drive. Using a = VFD drive=20 we can vary the speed from zero to 10,500 rpm. We should be able to = accelerate=20 without separating the column ( vertical vortex) but another test will = be to=20 determine what happens if  a separation occurs. May produce = pulsation if we=20 can get the Lazell expander to co-operate plus the rotating distributor = can be=20 configured with sufficent cavities( perhaps 9 to 11) that can produce = harmonics=20 assisting a pulsation.

Overall, the purpose behind the never ending tests is to cause =20 molecular changes to take place in the  mineral content of=20 seawater sufficent to allow a reduction in mineral = content=20 of the water prior to entering the reverse osmosis train prefilters = with=20 the added benefit of changing the salt to a form of marble=20 suitable for disposal.

Heck, why dream of little things.. make it the moon!

Richard 

------=_NextPart_001_002D_01C72BEA.BE9FE500-- ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C72BEA.BE9E5E60 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002b01c72c1d$0805a590$75027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C72BEA.BE9E5E60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 10:57:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBUIvMXE021099; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 10:57:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBUIvGgh021066; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 10:57:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 10:57:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 12:57:10 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <45919638.5080503 pobox.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I might be mistaken, but I think there is a significant performance drop at low temperatures with solar cells... someone please correct if wrong. Wood pellet fueled heat engine (Stirling, Ericsson, etc.) turning a series of low RPM generators (windmill type) with radiant heat to melt all that solid water outside your door as well. 8^) Even us metropolitan suburbanites day dream of distributed power and energy independence. Our inspiration does not necessarily come from significant weather events however, but from the postman each month.. ha ha. My biggest concern with getting off the grid is that the mob will show up at my door when everything else goes dark and quiet... but then again I am a cynic. I always expect the worst. -john -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw pobox.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:38 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy Here in southern Ontario, frequent ice storms are the norm and 2/3 of the power lines are above ground. Back in 1998 4" of ice accumulated on everything and the whole region was without power for a couple weeks; since then there's been lots of talk about buried wires but very little digging has actually taken place. Living in a house where not just heat, but hot water, cooking, and the pump that brings in the water used to flush the toilet all depend on electricity has led me to the conclusion that a little less direct dependence on the grid might be a Good Goal. The folks who lived here before us put in a nice new fireplace which actually gives off heat when you use it (unlike the conventional "Middle Ages style" fireplaces which suck in air through the chinks in the walls, and so tend to cool things off). But a warm house without drinking water or flush toilets still seems suboptimal. (Come to think of it, after the power goes out and the battery backup sump pump's battery runs down we'll have plenty of water, but not really the right sort...) So, I've been daydreaming about covering the roof with solar cells and filling the basement with batteries in an effort to gain some security against the vagaries of "Acts of God", as the failure of badly-designed systems due to predictable events is generally called. After a "mental walk-through" counting watts, it appears that, more or less in line with Terry's recent post, something like a kilowatt or so of continuous power would do us (if we turn off all unnecessary lights and don't use the furnace), and that suggests something like 50 square meters of solar panels to charge up during the day and something approaching 20 automobile batteries to carry the house through the night. Do any of you have any experience with such an approach? Is it stupid even to consider such a scheme, given that we're a little more than 45 degrees north of the equator? Is there a more rational approach? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 14:57:13 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBUMv9b0014475; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 14:57:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBUMsOJ0013918; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 14:54:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 14:54:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: Q4pYA9QVM1kaWnTFDWQZubkLXPGKfhsf1Inun_F4GAj_VKil_vUC28kS2yLY41Cpd402X6uV9MXjpQ3JSvQfCvyVW9CaIRarjev3YK5apeeEj_p1L6D5n.2_.WeDy8HjdDl2o9ThaCGsE99jLzS23ISkc1kMbdTQvUcQlNQ5G8w5qlIiRqmEWD099tnO Message-ID: <4596EE1D.9090306 pobox.com> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 17:54:21 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: > I might be mistaken, but I think there is a significant performance drop at > low temperatures with solar cells... someone please correct if wrong. What's worse, there's a totally catastrophic performance drop when they're covered with 2" of snow, or an inch or two of ice. I was thinking about that, sadly, while looking at the roof today while we were out shoveling the driveway. The solar cell idea may be a nonstarter in these parts, unless it's possible to set them up in a highly sloped rack, combined with heating cables to break loose the snow and/or ice, so that the stuff slides off. Teflon coated solar cells, maybe? sigh... > > Wood pellet fueled heat engine (Stirling, Ericsson, etc.) turning a series > of low RPM generators (windmill type) with radiant heat to melt all that > solid water outside your door as well. 8^) Huh ... external combustion engines are generally more efficient than ICE's, aren't they? Quite aside from the fact that you can't feed any kind of wood to an ICE (without a lot of pre-processing). > > Even us metropolitan suburbanites day dream of distributed power and energy > independence. Our inspiration does not necessarily come from significant > weather events however, but from the postman each month.. ha ha. > > My biggest concern with getting off the grid is that the mob will show up at > my door when everything else goes dark and quiet... but then again I am a > cynic. I always expect the worst. > > -john > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw pobox.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:38 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative > energy > > > Here in southern Ontario, frequent ice storms are the norm and 2/3 of > the power lines are above ground. Back in 1998 4" of ice accumulated on > everything and the whole region was without power for a couple weeks; > since then there's been lots of talk about buried wires but very little > digging has actually taken place. > > Living in a house where not just heat, but hot water, cooking, and the > pump that brings in the water used to flush the toilet all depend on > electricity has led me to the conclusion that a little less direct > dependence on the grid might be a Good Goal. > > The folks who lived here before us put in a nice new fireplace which > actually gives off heat when you use it (unlike the conventional "Middle > Ages style" fireplaces which suck in air through the chinks in the > walls, and so tend to cool things off). But a warm house without > drinking water or flush toilets still seems suboptimal. (Come to think > of it, after the power goes out and the battery backup sump pump's > battery runs down we'll have plenty of water, but not really the right > sort...) > > So, I've been daydreaming about covering the roof with solar cells and > filling the basement with batteries in an effort to gain some security > against the vagaries of "Acts of God", as the failure of badly-designed > systems due to predictable events is generally called. > > After a "mental walk-through" counting watts, it appears that, more or > less in line with Terry's recent post, something like a kilowatt or so > of continuous power would do us (if we turn off all unnecessary lights > and don't use the furnace), and that suggests something like 50 square > meters of solar panels to charge up during the day and something > approaching 20 automobile batteries to carry the house through the night. > > Do any of you have any experience with such an approach? Is it stupid > even to consider such a scheme, given that we're a little more than 45 > degrees north of the equator? > > Is there a more rational approach? > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 17:04:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBV14NpJ018051; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 17:04:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBV11YbX017319; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 17:01:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 17:01:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c72c77$227f31c0$4bdc163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net><4592985C.6080806@pobox.com> <002401c729da$8cfe3db0$5c9d163f@DFBGQZ91> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternativeenergy Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:00:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I didn't think it was that bad of an idea, or at least not bad enough to warrant: 1. No on list response 2. A (very nasty) negative off-list response On the gripping hand, if I were to post a reply to something sociopolitical, then I would be guaranteed at least an on-list response calling me an uneducated, imperialistic American. Does anyone here REALLY want to do something about the energy crisis, or do you just want to fuck around? I'm not going to apologize for that either, I am tired of the cheap talk and 'great promises' of bio-this-and-that and what have you. I make shit for money, but I put a nice fraction of what I have left over into my own research. So far I ended up with a fuel-efficient Chevy that the state took away on a technicality, and not much else besides a lack of creature comforts compared to others my age. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but getting past the "it might be something" point to the "this is the real deal" point has eluded me, primarily for lack of income, and moreso, lack of anyone to listen. So...barely above poverty, putting almost all of my disposable (ha!) income into research that maybe will do something (on in a billion), buying the most energy efficient stuff I can find for heat and electricity because (big surprise to Vortex, I bet) I do care what happens to our civilization and our planet, trying to help the local biodiesel guys, trying to help get awareness stirred up in the locals (some developers too, at this point) about using passive solar collectors, and that they can be cheap....if that isn't why I am supposed to be here, I don't know what is. And if it makes me an uneducated, stupid American, then please bury me face down when I die, so the world can kiss my ass. If that is considered a flame, I honestly don't care. I have no faith or patience left. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 17:37:22 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBV1bIGE023413; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 17:37:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBV1YWpH022847; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 17:34:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 17:34:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=e0qT6E0NEhJWhhP3lyVog5Lhlc3xIfHqeuHA0a5oW1n6ldyUdJ6lorqIczdILF5k; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061203113418975 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:34:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408b9f8fa62ba39ef5a684b7de001712a5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.73 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII FWIW, from the peanut gallery there has yet to be an affordable Stirling Engine that will compete with a comparable-sized Steam (Vapor Powered) Engine. That is why I suggested going to (In the words of Kyle McCallister) going to a F...ing used Scroll compressor off an automotive air conditioner and using it as a one moving-part-rotary-closed cycle-Expander Engine, Steam (or Propane Vapor) heated from Any Heat Source, like a pot on top of the stove or a heat exchanger in the chimney, solar-warm-water, wood chips, or whatever will burn. I thought Stephen was serious about emergency back-up out in the Ontario woods. Having spent my early childhood in the great depression era, a 30 watt light bulb and running water was stuff we dreamed of. After WW II "prosperity" it took me a long time to get used to taking a crap in the house. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
FWIW, from the peanut gallery there has yet to
be an affordable Stirling Engine that will compete
with a comparable-sized Steam (Vapor Powered) Engine.
 
That is why I suggested going to (In the words of
Kyle McCallister) going to a F...ing used Scroll compressor
off an automotive air conditioner and using it as
a one moving-part-rotary-closed cycle-Expander Engine, Steam (or
Propane Vapor) heated from Any Heat Source,
like a pot on top of the stove or a heat exchanger
in the chimney, solar-warm-water, wood chips, or whatever
will burn.
 
I thought Stephen was serious about emergency back-up
out in the Ontario woods.
Having spent my early childhood in the great depression era,
a 30 watt light bulb and running water was stuff we dreamed of.
After WW II "prosperity" it took me a long time to get used to taking a crap
in the house.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 18:25:22 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBV2PHed032465; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:25:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBV2MbOj031980; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:22:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:22:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=crVJtZ0nisng4bQAfYmlpzmYV3S+H/mkrBkVzA6R7ZkqNr6Vnv8vauPL+Gv9Fs2D; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061203122224414 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternativeenergy Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:22:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403848bc1374e824a72bc517d9a08a9633350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.73 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > > > I didn't think it was that bad of an idea, or at least not bad enough to > warrant: > > 1. No on list response > 2. A (very nasty) negative off-list response > > On the gripping hand, if I were to post a reply to something sociopolitical, > then I would be guaranteed at least an on-list response calling me an > uneducated, imperialistic American. > > Does anyone here REALLY want to do something about the energy crisis,...? > I loss my butt on that after the 1973 oil embargo Kyle. So did many others. We had practical-proven answers for a kilowatt to 3 Megawatts. Joe Hamrick (a retired NASA engineer, Roanoke Va) used the engine off the C-130 aircraft (externally fired) to burn biomass and cow dung in the mid 1980s. At age 86 he's still going strong and has pushed the power up to 12 Megawatts on sawdust and municipal trash. > > I'm not going to apologize for that either, I am tired of the cheap talk and > 'great promises' of bio-this-and-that and what have you. I make shit for > money, but I put a nice fraction of what I have left over into my own > research. So far I ended up with a fuel-efficient Chevy that the state took > away on a technicality, and not much else besides a lack of creature > comforts compared to others my age. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but > getting past the "it might be something" point to the "this is the real > deal" point has eluded me, primarily for lack of income, and moreso, lack of > anyone to listen. > The energy barons hear you Kyle, just like they heard the Murchison brothers (former owners of the Dallas Cowboys) that put/lost millions into a bio-digestor--pipeline quality methane plant at a 250,000 head feedlot in Oklahoma, but the pipeline companies wouldn't let them use the pipelines to "wheel" the gas to consumers. We hit the same snag for wheeling the power on the grid using Joe Hamrick's system. > > So...barely above poverty, putting almost all of my disposable (ha!) income > into research that maybe will do something (one in a billion), buying the > most energy efficient stuff I can find for heat and electricity because (big > surprise to Vortex, I bet) I do care what happens to our civilization and > our planet, trying to help the local biodiesel guys, trying to help get > awareness stirred up in the locals (some developers too, at this point) > about using passive solar collectors, and that they can be cheap....if that > isn't why I am supposed to be here, I don't know what is. > A friend of mine has two sons that are experienced-top-rated auto mechanics that had no idea that the scroll compressor existed and is used on the air conditioners on several makes of vehicles even though their older brother in the dairy equipment business is selling equipment using scroll compressor refrigeration units up to 30 KW to folks that are replacing their hermetic piston compressors with them because they "last forever". > > And if it makes me an uneducated, stupid American, then please bury me face > down when I die, so the world can kiss my ass. > Picture that. :-) Fred > > --Kyle > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 19:02:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBV32hV9026429; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:02:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBV302Mg025854; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:00:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:00:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: Pb9DDGQVM1luhkYkPHEe4odr7t_zHo2iwUD._4CtAggzPh7bFdVe3kTtI8mNFlmY0DorKLRlrnoaeG7nyE1zOOrCX8McZ7PmJAwSwzPUKLRZi9UHmxTb.hywY1VS5IAx4XtysbrXSA6xgIjyXxoFF6HeCR9VJSohJBWHzm01Dd2SWC06rnXHVAqpSm.D Message-ID: <459727AB.8050708 pobox.com> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 21:59:55 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternativeenergy References: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net><4592985C.6080806@pobox.com> <002401c729da$8cfe3db0$5c9d163f@DFBGQZ91> <001401c72c77$227f31c0$4bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <001401c72c77$227f31c0$4bdc163f DFBGQZ91> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > > I didn't think it was that bad of an idea, or at least not bad enough to > warrant: > > 1. No on list response > 2. A (very nasty) negative off-list response Say what? I didn't send you a negative off-list response! I didn't send anybody any off-list responses in this thread; in fact I hardly ever send off-list responses to anything on vortex (except by accident). In fact, I didn't send _ANY_ response to your post, or a lot of others, for which I apologize; I've been somewhere between impressed and overwhelmed by the responses I got to my question about solar energy collection, and have been very remiss about responding. Furthermore, I apologize to all to whom I didn't reply; please don't take my lack of responses as an indication that I thought the ideas were bad. Just take them as ... well ... a lack of response... I am serious about looking for an alternative for grid power but at this point I'm feeling kind of overwhelmed by the amount of work some of the otherwise most attractive options would require. Kyle, your idea of a simple thermal collector sounded good, as a matter of fact. The primary issue I'd have with the suggestion as posted is that, in our particular situation, I think we've already got the "heat" base covered (though I have to say splitting logs is a lot harder than I thought it would be -- G**d*** are we ever a couple of ignorant city-slickers, as I am learning; someday I may post something about our first up-close-and-personal encounter with a tipsy poplar, which has seriously modified our tree-hugging view of living in a woods). The thing that most concerns me in the event of an extended blackout is the well pump, for which we need electricity, rather than heat -- and of course the computers, which also need electricity. The fridge is less of an issue, as most blackouts happen during cold weather. OTOH your idea of a thermal reservoir could just as well be used in conjunction with a Stirling engine and generator to make electricity, or so I would think -- I don't know how that would compare with solar cells; might be more durable in the face of ice storms, at the least. 'Course I haven't priced Stirling engines, nor any other heat engine; Fred Sparber's post, which left me feeling a tad bewildered but appeared to be suggesting something along these lines, referred to using a scroll expander engine, about which I know nothing (yet one more thing to check into...). Anyhow I'm sorry again for the dead silence, as well as for any apparent negativity in my replies; I've been very impressed with all the responses and feel badly about my lack replies. > > On the gripping hand, if I were to post a reply to something > sociopolitical, then I would be guaranteed at least an on-list response > calling me an uneducated, imperialistic American. > > Does anyone here REALLY want to do something about the energy crisis, or > do you just want to fuck around? > > I'm not going to apologize for that either, I am tired of the cheap talk > and 'great promises' of bio-this-and-that and what have you. I make shit > for money, but I put a nice fraction of what I have left over into my > own research. So far I ended up with a fuel-efficient Chevy that the > state took away on a technicality, and not much else besides a lack of > creature comforts compared to others my age. I've seen a lot of strange > stuff, but getting past the "it might be something" point to the "this > is the real deal" point has eluded me, primarily for lack of income, and > moreso, lack of anyone to listen. > > So...barely above poverty, putting almost all of my disposable (ha!) > income into research that maybe will do something (on in a billion), > buying the most energy efficient stuff I can find for heat and > electricity because (big surprise to Vortex, I bet) I do care what > happens to our civilization and our planet, trying to help the local > biodiesel guys, trying to help get awareness stirred up in the locals > (some developers too, at this point) about using passive solar > collectors, and that they can be cheap....if that isn't why I am > supposed to be here, I don't know what is. > > And if it makes me an uneducated, stupid American, then please bury me > face down when I die, so the world can kiss my ass. > If that is considered a flame, I honestly don't care. I have no faith or > patience left. > > --Kyle > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 19:12:34 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBV3CUMY013172; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:12:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBV3CIRY013143; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:12:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:12:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005f01c72c89$71af6410$4bdc163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net><4592985C.6080806@pobox.com><002401c729da$8cfe3db0$5c9d163f@DFBGQZ91><001401c72c77$227f31c0$4bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <459727AB.8050708@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternativeenergy Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 22:12:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternativeenergy > Say what? > > I didn't send you a negative off-list response! I didn't send anybody any > off-list responses in this thread; in fact I hardly ever send off-list > responses to anything on vortex (except by accident). No, no, it wasn't you, someone else. I just didn't want to name that person's name. None of that response of mine was directed at you. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 19:13:14 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBV3D7Db013334; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:13:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBV3D6Ai013317; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:13:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:13:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45972A97.2040900 usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 21:12:23 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy References: <4596EE1D.9090306@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <4596EE1D.9090306 pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > John Steck wrote: > >> I might be mistaken, but I think there is a significant performance >> drop at >> low temperatures with solar cells... someone please correct if wrong. > > > What's worse, there's a totally catastrophic performance drop when > they're covered with 2" of snow, or an inch or two of ice. Sounds like a job for electrical heater cables to me. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 19:19:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBV3JalM031010; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:19:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBV3JVxX030971; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:19:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:19:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: gbGjRxYVM1kLIYy5UsIlmqMk07k3So5JLo7mTatZ8ykAbOEifwebbFNqQyZlWiqf.BAAiCiZsJUQ.Rw2wNHhe8q7ZAlY0O6RdmIJgkPm.dw9oGqNFHc1L1pGv6zmSm7cCdvgPFq53JdTn7MTaX9he0F5paD4DRzilUE8GrpgEjJijDiIm6GpVT2WcRYASAlj.fgpIBcCzXzqYyM- Message-ID: <45972C3F.3040204 pobox.com> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 22:19:27 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy References: <410-220061203113418975 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-220061203113418975 earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > FWIW, from the peanut gallery there has yet to > be an affordable Stirling Engine that will compete > with a comparable-sized Steam (Vapor Powered) Engine. It's been a while since I looked up Stirling engines but IIRC they're not available from a lot of companies -- just one, maybe? -- and cost a lot. So your statement doesn't surprise me. > That is why I suggested going to (In the words of > Kyle McCallister) going to a F...ing used Scroll compressor > off an automotive air conditioner and using it as > a one moving-part-rotary-closed cycle-Expander Engine, Steam (or > Propane Vapor) heated from Any Heat Source, > like a pot on top of the stove or a heat exchanger > in the chimney, solar-warm-water, wood chips, or whatever > will burn. And part of the reason I didn't respond initially is that the most intelligent thing I could think of to say, to start with, was "WTF is a scroll compressor?" which didn't sound very intelligent. So I've googled scroll compressors, now I'm slightly less ignorant -- but the idea of rigging up my own propane cycle heat engine to drive a generator leaves me feeling kind of boggled and, since you clearly made the suggestion as a serious proposal which, presumably, any competent individual should be able to do, well ... anyhow by that standard I don't feel terribly competent. So here I am whining "That's too h-a-a-a-r-d, Fred!" which I didn't want to do which is one reason I didn't reply right off...... > > I thought Stephen was serious about emergency back-up > out in the Ontario woods. I _am_ serious about it. I've just been bad about responding. Again, I'm sorry about the silence! > Having spent my early childhood in the great depression era, > a 30 watt light bulb and running water was stuff we dreamed of. > After WW II "prosperity" it took me a long time to get used to taking a crap > in the house. It's too cold to do that in the woods up here in the winter. We're vegans, so we do a lot of it, too -- not like folks on the Atkins diet who only need to run to the outhouse about once a week. > > Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 17:57:46 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBV1vghG028026; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 17:57:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBV1swuV027568; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 17:54:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 17:54:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=GN3y8mhy73DT159zaUfjseNh65QPVci8wPLFLdjgt6L8OWSvaZgbIzM/YLVpPyIIkK7UEqlOMyaxWIlAD6t7Y3KIkpVlT1mCFfSUfI+JeViGS/+ybGw4X1xtTmQfdQr1JAbqnp+pL06DCSBQ9ofQ0Age6p+ntWUd1KMJbTP3O9I= ; X-YMail-OSG: ny_QJW8VM1mwoIcScpNtYD3.fs97ucdlmJy6nDiaZVaApBJkJ0lQe_Ss5E8COpc9gcwAQd.IRRJWkNc7YRHC7JSLM.joP_f.fV3KzXcvce7qfPIvtSTRswf5NxVTilpO4kImbuo3P.HkBnM- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20061230204350.01f55348 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:52:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternativeenergy In-Reply-To: <001401c72c77$227f31c0$4bdc163f DFBGQZ91> References: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net> <4592985C.6080806 pobox.com> <002401c729da$8cfe3db0$5c9d163f DFBGQZ91> <001401c72c77$227f31c0$4bdc163f DFBGQZ91> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Kyle, I can relate totally to what you're saying having dealt with stupidity, feigned or otherwise, when I was trying to eke out a living in the solar energy design business (many years ago). So much for being a "highly paid consultant" - a phrase usually thrown at me by overpaid, overpensioned, overcoddled government types. At the moment I'm just waiting for the moment when some company such as Steorn or MPI or a company in the cold fusion business tries to commercialize its technology and sell it to real people. Your fuel-efficient Chevy will be nothing compared to the trumped-up legislation that will suddenly appear at all government levels. Call me a cynic, but in case nobody here has read about it, the EPA is now attempting to shut down the use of diesel in the US due to some technicality based on % nitrous oxides. They did that to the UK mini around 1973 when there was a gas crisis, on the basis of % pollutants exiting the exhaust. As far as I know there was no consideration given to miles travelled per gallon or gas. Only % pollutants in the exhaust. Someone correct me if I'm mistaken. P. At 08:00 PM 12/30/2006 -0500, you wrote: > > >I didn't think it was that bad of an idea, or at least not bad enough to >warrant: > >1. No on list response >2. A (very nasty) negative off-list response > >On the gripping hand, if I were to post a reply to something >sociopolitical, then I would be guaranteed at least an on-list response >calling me an uneducated, imperialistic American. > >Does anyone here REALLY want to do something about the energy crisis, or >do you just want to fuck around? > >I'm not going to apologize for that either, I am tired of the cheap talk >and 'great promises' of bio-this-and-that and what have you. I make shit >for money, but I put a nice fraction of what I have left over into my own >research. So far I ended up with a fuel-efficient Chevy that the state >took away on a technicality, and not much else besides a lack of creature >comforts compared to others my age. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but >getting past the "it might be something" point to the "this is the real >deal" point has eluded me, primarily for lack of income, and moreso, lack >of anyone to listen. > >So...barely above poverty, putting almost all of my disposable (ha!) >income into research that maybe will do something (on in a billion), >buying the most energy efficient stuff I can find for heat and electricity >because (big surprise to Vortex, I bet) I do care what happens to our >civilization and our planet, trying to help the local biodiesel guys, >trying to help get awareness stirred up in the locals (some developers >too, at this point) about using passive solar collectors, and that they >can be cheap....if that isn't why I am supposed to be here, I don't know >what is. > >And if it makes me an uneducated, stupid American, then please bury me >face down when I die, so the world can kiss my ass. >If that is considered a flame, I honestly don't care. I have no faith or >patience left. > >--Kyle > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 20:19:49 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBV4JfJ3027577; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:19:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBV4JdUj027568; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:19:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:19:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: Bxr0GEUVM1m3n14M.02JZMz4gF8a_.X1i_M4pUO1D2O.yzrNhG6J_ge_Qj0oblLig5ZPynWdJ7yOMyA6C0qHKHnarVMrNsz30UYE3u8BJfrsssKWgw80yg-- Message-ID: <45973A55.1090303 pobox.com> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 23:19:33 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy References: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net> <4592985C.6080806@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 12/27/06, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > >> That's amazing -- I had no idea a 3 KW inverter could be had for a few >> hundred bucks! > > Careful, "modified sine wave" inverters can be quite noisy and will > not run some loads. A "true sine wave" inverter at 3 kW will cost you > upwards of a grand. Right. $949 from Inverters-R-Us, to be precise, and that doesn't include GST or import duty. They actually mention running refrigerators, AC, and well pumps as suggested aps for some of the cheaper dirty-output inverters, which surprised me -- I thought electric motors were the things that really cared about the shape of the waveform. Electronics should not, or so I'd think. A little more digging has turned up the gem that deep well pumps are typically extremely power hungry, and typically need something over 3 kilowatts (at least to start them). The nameplate on the well motor controller in the basement claims the motor's only about 3/4 horse, which shouldn't need more than 1KW -- or so I'd have thought. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 20:27:06 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBV4Qegh029140; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:26:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBV4Qd79029125; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:26:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:26:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: GhkDjDIVM1n.BWw8j3cy75QrGklRvxlp.NqldkTC1dgunpUNOzz6q7qk9KNAkySVE0whCBDw0cN_Hi6Nnp7eFc8k2BGIsBBYejgqBLj9UdriUWd8AQgYOVxyLtbBV1EkHlAZGNVJeH9aTVk- Message-ID: <45973BF6.8010806 pobox.com> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 23:26:30 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy References: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net> <4592985C.6080806@pobox.com> <033b01c729e8$e95ee3d0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <033b01c729e8$e95ee3d0$3800a8c0 zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Hi Stephen, it won't take that long if Nanosolar, mentioned by Terry > in an earlier post, delivers as they seem poised to do since they > have secured 100 million dollars of financing and are going into > production in 2007, cf: http://www.nanosolar.com/articles.htm Interesting. I still need to decide whether solar panels actually make sense here. I still love the idea ("The perfect machine must have no moving parts" and all that) but we spend an awful lot of days waiting for the sun, which often fails to show up, save as a thin watery thing behind a veil of clouds. If solar panels do make sense, it sure sounds like putting off the rooftop part for a while might make sense. Particularly in light of the claim I ran across that the silicon solar cell market has been choking due to a shortage of raw materials, it's easy to believe prices may come down in a hurry if any plausible alternative makes it to market. > > What they seem to have achieved in pre-production is awesome: durable > and efficient inexpensive nano-ink printed aluminum foil PV panels > which could pay for themselves in just a few months at standard > electricity rates! > > Potentially the definitive answer to the world's energy problems if > an inexpensive storage technology emerges too (supercaps, hydrogen?), > and maybe even if it doesn't since peak electricity consumption is in > daytime. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > To: "vortex-l" Sent: > Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on > grid-independence and personal alternative energy > > > ... >> But we have a south-facing sloped roof with no trees shading that >> side, which made the idea of solar panels seem appealing. But if >> it's going to take 250 years to recoup the cost difference versus >> some other approach, maybe solar cells are not such a hot idea... > ... > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 20:44:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBV4iSM9027568; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:44:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBV4iMYK027545; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:44:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:44:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: c1ZbAPoVM1mU6wTJn97EbWOkZaRmzj5Id4DcyDLT1LTqh6Z6y27xYg7a7ihcc00qLGTkK1hKNE7o6pGmC3LMOBLS08aLCciRrXfAJtspKNb3nCmJkeK_o96kKz.ncy4NawXVoI_5xpIrXyL4rPoktuLus94uElqmqaZwszW9CY5VM_.RKhdChD7WbfCA Message-ID: <45974023.1060501 pobox.com> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 23:44:19 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy References: <45919638.5080503 pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 12/26/06, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> After a "mental walk-through" counting watts, it appears that, more or >> less in line with Terry's recent post, something like a kilowatt or so >> of continuous power would do us (if we turn off all unnecessary lights >> and don't use the furnace), and that suggests something like 50 square >> meters of solar panels to charge up during the day and something >> approaching 20 automobile batteries to carry the house through the night. > > First, don't use automobile batteries. They are not designed for deep > discharge cycles. Golf cart batteries are a better choice. > > Also, don't forget that, while your power source only needs to meet > your average demand, your inverter must meet your peak demand. > > Finally, you might want to get in line for some of the first > nanotechnology solar cells: > > http://www.nanosolar.com > > which will reduce your cell cost significantly. Right -- even if one only waits for them to come onto the market and then buys conventional panels, they could push the cost of aforementioned conventional panels down just by being there as competition. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 20:48:38 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBV4mP1D004078; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:48:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBV4mNjv004057; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:48:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:48:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=XcUvUZial5WsP0+5V9NiA7y0+coGF42EhiOTnTh6VyPORzCMylIp+kfZQpmcGdvx; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061203144744357 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 21:47:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ce3921487985986ef0c140f2efbcc89e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.10 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote. > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > FWIW, from the peanut gallery there has yet to > > be an affordable Stirling Engine that will compete > > with a comparable-sized Steam (Vapor Powered) Engine. > > It's been a while since I looked up Stirling engines but IIRC they're > not available from a lot of companies -- just one, maybe? -- and cost a > lot. So your statement doesn't surprise me. > Note that Stirling's engine preceded the steam engine but got blown away by it. > > > That is why I suggested going to (In the words of > > Kyle McCallister) going to a F...ing used Scroll compressor > > off an automotive air conditioner and using it as > > a one moving-part-rotary-closed cycle-Expander Engine, Steam (or > > Propane Vapor) heated from Any Heat Source, > > like a pot on top of the stove or a heat exchanger > > in the chimney, solar-warm-water, wood chips, or whatever > > will burn. > > And part of the reason I didn't respond initially is that the most > intelligent thing I could think of to say, to start with, was "WTF is a > scroll compressor?" which didn't sound very intelligent. > Why is it that vorts came find about every "pie in the sky" horse-puckey free energy web page on the net, but can't click on the links of a post or Google wiki ? :-) > > So I've go ogled scroll compressors, now I'm slightly less ignorant -- > but the idea of rigging up my own propane cycle heat engine to drive a > generator leaves me feeling kind of boggled and, since you clearly made > the suggestion as a serious proposal which, presumably, any competent > individual should be able to do, well ... anyhow by that standard I > don't feel terribly competent. > Nothing to it. Go to a junk yard pick up a Mitsubishi FX105V auto air conditioner compressor (scroll) and an alternator and fan belt. (both should have pulleys) and an automotive electric fuel pump. Pick up a two 20 lb (5 gallon) propane tanks (about $40.00 new-filled, one empty) Couple the full propane tank to the modified (internal check valve removed) Mitsubishi FX105V so it runs as a motor, and hook the empty propane tank to the exhaust of "expander" with the valve open. Couple the alternator (use a 12 volt battery for exciting the alternator) to the expander and take the setup OUTDOORS and crack the valve on the full tank and watch it start to frost up until you set it in a tub of hot water replenished from you water heater or build a fire under it. Going by this propane pressure chart if the receiver tank is at 10 F and the full tank is at 100 F you are working the expander with 177 PSIG - 34 PSIG = 143 PSIG. If a load on the alternator looks promising, you're in business and ready to use a water loop with Calcium Chloride antifreeze in it (they use it for antifreeze in tractor tires) unless you prefer 100 proof ethanol-water. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-vapor-pressure-d_1020.html With an inexpensive Grundfos circulator pump to move the water loop: http://www.grundfos.com/web/homeus.nsf you can pick up heat from your fireplace or it's chimney with steel pipe and use PVC where high temperature isn't a problem with the 1/4 0r 1/2 inch propane piping inside it to be heated by the warm to 110 F or so. If it's too cold to poop outside a 1 inch metal pipe propane condenser sticking out the window will do, but you need a pump like the automotive electric fuel pump to pump the liquid propane through a check valve back to "boiler pipe" inside the water pipe. OTOH if you want to run the expander using steam at 30 to 100 PSIG (270 - 390 F) with it's hazards, you can go for it. > > > Having spent my early childhood in the great depression era, > > a 30 watt light bulb and running water was stuff we dreamed of. > > After WW II "prosperity" it took me a long time to get used to taking a crap > > in the house. > > It's too cold to do that in the woods up here in the winter. > The northwestern corner of Pennsylvania wasn't much warmer than Buffalo. :-) > > We're vegans, so we do a lot of it, too -- not like folks on the Atkins > diet who only need to run to the outhouse about once a week. > In that case you might consider a methane generator as backup. :-) Fred > > > > Fred > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 20:51:55 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBV4poBP004938; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:51:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBV4pk0Q004914; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:51:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:51:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: l8nOTYYVM1lhfvEuFMiGNZDZ3_HFHTiOXTYFKXM8ADQJtqBaz6baGrlP4IMNhZiZWG3s91hUzs.Ky8Sye0WWY4oZtxDiRhumGu11KYuyREMS_7ulwn4cCg-- Message-ID: <459741DB.1080805 pobox.com> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 23:51:39 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy References: <4596EE1D.9090306@pobox.com> <45972A97.2040900@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <45972A97.2040900 usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> >> >> John Steck wrote: >> >>> I might be mistaken, but I think there is a significant performance >>> drop at >>> low temperatures with solar cells... someone please correct if wrong. Groping around on the web I ran into an off-hand claim that they actually perform better at low temperatures, here: http://www.wagonmaker.com/power.html Haven't dug into it any farther at this point. >> >> What's worse, there's a totally catastrophic performance drop when >> they're covered with 2" of snow, or an inch or two of ice. > > Sounds like a job for electrical heater cables to me. That, plus a 45 degree tilt, might be all that's needed. Then we'd just need to be sure they were well enough anchored to the roof so that the tilted solar panels wouldn't turn into a "solar sail" and fly away in the first storm that comes along... > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 08:44:18 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBVGiDGx013228; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 08:44:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBVGiA3l013217; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 08:44:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 08:44:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20061231164407.34979.qmail web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=G/8JzqeRaTtL7wpW0FYbALLCqTK/3WE4cYyvXOhlx9X4wQl6dWHNXeBwLqb9WTaK8jcQLrFJ66xwTKG1AaEkTh1p0ICj5L10T9PNl3RsSantNExitB1zNca+Ylk31JKAU/ZTjisB4k6kRwSvjwsrXK+9JeW6vAsFHinMGx1Kz64=; X-YMail-OSG: cC7G4DcVM1kBpLcmGnU7z_2tOFmB01dp2rn4gW4f3SlJHiwHlhtkurLxQr8BOv9mO3PkRn6GlBt9T2KLGv05vKDpZ5nO0T1bZ1WSp6ddhFBf0iRnbO9S4SQK6HuzDoq9Pujz.FaGaKAGoq8- Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 08:44:07 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Virtual Charge: Electric Charge (non)- Conservation Status: RO X-Status: --- Ken Shoulders has added a recent note entitled, "Electric Charge (non)-Conservation" to his site at: http://www.svn.net/krscfs/ For those who have not followed the work of KS, let me offer a personal but unauthorized interpretation. Though very specific techniques, Ken Shoulders can create a cathode object which appears to be a comparatively large cloud-like collection of negatively charged electrons: now called the EVO (exotic vacuum object) - BUT - the normal electrostatic repulsion is somehow avoided in this bound-charge; and this evanescent object, which is found as either "black" or "white" varieties depending on photon emission and reactivity, will effectively be able to transport charge across space. "Using EVO methods, charge can be transported across great distances and through numerous barriers without either having to account for a return current loop or unwanted charging of the source. The transported charge is found only on the object the very penetrating black EVO is awakened within by becoming adequately excited during transit. If the black EVO is not excited adequately, there are indications that the charge it was composed of disappears from our cognizance, if not completely." IOW this is best described as a "virtual charge" which seems to exist on the interface between our 3-space and another dimension. It is tempting to call that other dimension the Dirac sea, or the EPO field (Don Hotson's interpretation of Dirac). But at any rate this object, the EVO, does not come into our reality easily - yet - because it is so incredibly powerful, it can still be "seen" in that interfacial space, using Shoulder's specialized "electron microscope". For years KS has been trying to harness this charge for use on a small scale, but to my knowledge has never been able to do more than document some of its putative features. EVOs or something similar, may be seen in nature in gigantic arc discharges - perhaps in lightning. It is possible that this can be done (harnessing what may be EVOs) on an industrial scale; and probably has been done already at Sandia and elsewhere under different guises: Z-pinch, exploding wires or Cobra, etc. In these cases, the experts have observed a significant anomaly of high energy deposition in to a target or wire - exceeding the expected value by a factor of from four to 20 times. They do not use the term "COP" (as Mel Brooks would say, "we have to protect our phony-baloney jobs")... but OU is arguably what it is: and at a factor of up to COP=20. IMHO, the EVO provides (one of the better) explanations for this huge energy anomaly - an anomaly which is becoming documented at a major National Lab - but you will not hear that appraisal, or Shoulder's name, from any spokesperson at Sandia. I just wonder if - what they are seeing in these megabuck project$ - is really just the "super-size-it" version of the same EVO phenomenon, or something even more exotic. Jones Electric Charge (non)-Conservation by Ken Shoulders © 2006 An EVO structure, whether in the white or black state, provides an easily measured and unambiguous testimony to the fact that electric charge is not conserved under the conditions of space modification provided by the EVO. The subject of charge conservation is an old one where many views have been used for its theoretical analysis, but for the sake of brevity, only one recent reference will be cited here. This reference and abstract is found in : PHYSICAL REVIEW D 71, (2005) "Lorentz invariance violation and charge (non) conservation: A general theoretical frame for extensions of the Maxwell equations" All quantum gravity approaches lead to small modifications in the standard laws of physics, which in most cases lead to violations of Lorentz invariance. One particular example is the extended standard model (SME). Here, a general phenomenological approach for extensions of the Maxwell equations is presented which turns out to be more general than the SME and which covers charge non-conservation (CNC), too. The new Lorentz invariance violating terms cannot be probed by optical experiments but need, instead, the exploration of the electromagnetic field created by a point charge or a magnetic dipole. Some scalar tensor theories and higher dimensional brane theories predict CNC in four dimensions and some models violating special relativity have been shown to be connected with CNC. Its relation to the Einstein Equivalence Principle has been discussed. Because of this upcoming interest, the experimental status of electric charge conservation is reviewed. Up to now there seems to exist no unique tests of charge conservation. CNC is related to the precession of polarization, to a modification of the 1=r-Coulomb potential, and to a time dependence of the fine structure constant.This gives the opportunity to describe a dedicated search for CNC. The authors in this reference suggest a dedicated search for charge non-conservation be initiated whereas the present author suggests one has already been found that completely resolves the issue experimentally without the usual decades of time required to thresh out the answer collegially. Using EVO methods, charge can be transported across great distances and through numerous barriers without either having to account for a return current loop or unwanted charging of the source. The transported charge is found only on the object the very penetrating black EVO is awakened within by becoming adequately excited during transit. If the black EVO is not excited adequately, there are indications that the charge it was composed of disappears from our cognizance, if not completely. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 13:31:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBVLUv7Z026568; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:31:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBVLUeUQ026488; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:30:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:30:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Virtual Charge: Electric Charge (non)- Conservation Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 08:30:37 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20061231164407.34979.qmail web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20061231164407.34979.qmail web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 31 Dec 2006 21:30:37 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kBVLUbKu026471 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 31 Dec 2006 08:44:07 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] >--- Ken Shoulders has added a recent note entitled, >"Electric Charge (non)-Conservation" to his site at: > >http://www.svn.net/krscfs/ > >"Using EVO methods, charge can be transported across >great distances and through numerous barriers without >either having to account for a return current loop or >unwanted charging of the source. The >transported charge is found only on the object the >very penetrating black EVO is awakened within by >becoming adequately excited during transit. If the >black EVO is not excited adequately, there are >indications that the charge it was composed of >disappears from our cognizance, if not completely." What bothers me about this is the charge left behind. If the charge on the electrons truly disappears, then what about the remaining charge on ions from which they were initially removed? BTW this reminds me of the T.T. Brown story about the ship welding equipment, where the entire environment "went dark". Sounds like they might have either been in an EVO, or both that situation and EVOs share the property that they alter the ability of the aether to transport light - or perhaps more accurately to transport electric/magnetic force. If the latter, then rather than the charge actually being missing, perhaps the charge on the EVO stopped affecting Shoulders' measuring equipment. Besides, that would also mean that the charges would no longer "feel" one another's presence, explaining their ability to stick together. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 13:33:23 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBVLXEvl018951; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:33:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBVLXCvT018940; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:33:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:33:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45982C79.1000309 usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 15:32:41 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com References: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net><4592985C.6080806@pobox.com> <002401c729da$8cfe3db0$5c9d163f@DFBGQZ91> <001401c72c77$227f31c0$4bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <001401c72c77$227f31c0$4bdc163f DFBGQZ91> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: What Energy Crisis? Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > > I didn't think it was that bad of an idea, or at least not bad enough > to warrant: > > Does anyone here REALLY want to do something about the energy crisis, > or do you just want to fuck around? What energy crisis? IMHO, the energy crisis you face is an inability to generate a suitable income. I have the same problem. Over the past year we have discussed a number of areas which might provide an unlimited source of pollution free energy. Among them are the writings of Hal Puthoff, last week I posted a review of his paper on EVO's, adding ? after comments that I don't understand. I also mentioned the Frank Tippler's paper on generating anti matter. I mentioned a drawing in Tippler's paper, which looks a lot like a drawing in one of Ken Shoulder's papers. Hal was involved in the development of Shoulder's EVO patents, which is prominently mentioned in the credits. We have had numerous discussions of induced nuclear fusion, Hal's paper mentions one potential route, I have mentioned resonant vibrations as another potential route, and there is the electrical stimulation of metal in aqueous solution method. The vibrational researcher Dale Pond claims to have tapped the strong nuclear force with his recreation of Kelley's Dyansphere. There are the permanent magnetic generators that Steorn and MPI claim to have under development. I'm a big fan of making the deserts bloom by piping sea water in and brine out, and powering the whole thing with solar and the bio evolved power. IMHO, this would also provide an unlimted source of rare metals too. If nothing else, we have fossil fuel reserves enough to last for 1000 years. Now there are a number of problems which are going to have to be resolved, like where to get enough air to burn it, and your children will have to convert to Islam. Vortexians, did I miss any? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 13:46:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBVLkCoT001473; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:46:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBVLk7Rb001446; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:46:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:46:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=keskh/KTNs2UbIT8hh/V+mKpDJz2VuXZyEAXS4A5yQOtUU/GD4OOiWvB0mzyJl42hK8ktvZ1cYFa8XqalZ0jAAm3Fhd4wJHdOLNi78C5NQXquLyg1xf5cqXAhV1ssew9pp45vtgrWNcQyk82DoWlz+ebAz60JZ+iu8oeuHsOxac=; X-YMail-OSG: zzOXXrIVM1nciQHkeasugE5mxLDyRCuxa6pcddugqjjY16KSO2xvwvfoHKK3HEUPgLW2drvWUoQ03IMad4zBJjQ6Kd5bMjfVN0Vo4aSeAUKs6lwHdIqTb.aeXaBs8JRMHyTNJUqurPTPjBI- Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:46:06 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <233975.29937.qm web82713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: (last) Word of the Day '06 Status: RO X-Status: Oilgae is poised to become a new Word in more ways than one. ...and maybe even "savior" (of a preferred lifestyle, at least) In the beginning, of course, was "the Word." Soon thereafter - there was algae. Then, from algae and after aeons of time came petroleum. In future, there will be little rock-oil, but in its place there will be Oilgae In effect, we will have succeeded in removing the "middle-man" = time http://www.oilgae.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 13:54:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBVLsAFM006846; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:54:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBVLs84S006812; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:54:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:54:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Yy2sIod/irlUwDUAJpFfumL3ywmkYWE8GKMGcLP8e9d/u4WbX1RMIr1VVnVC9uCj; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Virtual Charge: Electric Charge (non)- Conservation Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 15:53:50 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400d1dac6c0dc68338b0a1ebf34d4942d3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: <1fyNa.A.YqB.AGDmFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "In my opinion", one of many concepts and least understood is that of _DIMENSIONS_. The interaction between one dimension and the next and the governing hierarchy of that information. Virtual particles (albeit), but the real kicker is, can _HEAT_ be an inter-dimensional process? An interesting idea is that each atom is surrounded by multiple dimensions, which would mean information is exchanged with a higher or "LOWER" dimension, independent of the surrounding atoms. This would lead to multiple doorways for energy interchange, presenting the appearance of OU yet maintaining conservation when all dimensional interaction is included. > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] > Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:31 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Virtual Charge: Electric Charge (non)- Conservation > > > In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 31 Dec 2006 08:44:07 > -0800 (PST): > Hi, > [snip] > >--- Ken Shoulders has added a recent note entitled, > >"Electric Charge (non)-Conservation" to his site at: > > > >http://www.svn.net/krscfs/ > > > >"Using EVO methods, charge can be transported across > >great distances and through numerous barriers without > >either having to account for a return current loop or > >unwanted charging of the source. The > >transported charge is found only on the object the > >very penetrating black EVO is awakened within by > >becoming adequately excited during transit. If the > >black EVO is not excited adequately, there are > >indications that the charge it was composed of > >disappears from our cognizance, if not completely." > > What bothers me about this is the charge left behind. If the charge on the > electrons truly disappears, then what about the remaining charge > on ions from > which they were initially removed? > > BTW this reminds me of the T.T. Brown story about the ship > welding equipment, > where the entire environment "went dark". Sounds like they might > have either > been in an EVO, or both that situation and EVOs share the > property that they > alter the ability of the aether to transport light - or perhaps > more accurately > to transport electric/magnetic force. If the latter, then rather > than the charge > actually being missing, perhaps the charge on the EVO stopped affecting > Shoulders' measuring equipment. Besides, that would also mean > that the charges > would no longer "feel" one another's presence, explaining their > ability to stick > together. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 13:58:43 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBVLwVkX024015; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:58:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBVLwUI4024000; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:58:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:58:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=PtycCKP4bPI4sIxYj6RlB0ZH0wBpZr90PTE4qB0lmNNC/K8DmXWyq4WgQ9lqzOpk4aC13IVzDewiAO0vfuKzUmpaJeQ34NZsMY3v0a/hXYxVtpVA1KZQ8ntA1OrxJasPmeug9mQ7AR0EdaYH4RD/U1HvGsKcrZXvhKfzCKX9B9U= Message-ID: <538fa8f10612311358j72832b0fq306a5200fc5cdc81 mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:58:29 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, temalloy@usfamily.net Subject: Re: [Vo]: What Energy Crisis? In-Reply-To: <45982C79.1000309 usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_133018_6650138.1167602309234" References: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net> <4592985C.6080806@pobox.com> <002401c729da$8cfe3db0$5c9d163f DFBGQZ91> <001401c72c77$227f31c0$4bdc163f DFBGQZ91> <45982C79.1000309 usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_133018_6650138.1167602309234 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "Kelley's Dyansphere"?? John Ernst Worrell Keely's Dynasphere . ( http://peswiki.com/index.php/John_Keely & http://www.svpvril.com ) you also missed the nonexistent discussion on the RotoVerter. http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Rotoverter The outline details are as follows: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Image:D2_rotoverter01.JPG The output device is an alternator which is driven by a three-phase mains-powered, 3 HP to 7.5 HP motor (both of these devices can be standard 'asynchronous squirrel-cage' motors). The drive motor is operated in a highly non-standard manner. It is a 240V motor with six windings as shown below. These windings are connected in series to make an arrangement which should require 480 volts to drive it, but instead, it is fed with 120 volts of single-phase AC. The input voltage for the motor, should always be a quarter of its rated operational voltage. A virtual third phase is created by using a capacitor which creates a 90-degree phase-shift between the applied voltage and the current. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Image:D2_rotoverter02.JPG The objective is to tune the motor windings to give resonant operation. A start-up capacitor is connected into the circuit using the press-button switch shown, to get the motor up to speed, at which point the switch is released, allowing the motor to run with a much smaller capacitor in place. Although the running capacitor is shown as a fixed value, in practice, that capacitor needs to be adjusted while the motor is running, to give resonant operation. For this, a bank of capacitors is usually constructed, each capacitor having its own ON/OFF switch, so that different combinations of switch closures give a wide range of different overall values of capacitance. With the six capacitors shown above, any value from 0.5microfarad to 31.5 microfarad can be rapidly switched to find the correct resonant value. These values allow combined values of 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, ... by selecting the appropriate switched to be ON or OFF. Should you need a value greater than this, then wire a 32 microfarad capacitor in place and connect the substitution box across it to test higher values step-by-step to find the optimum value of capacitor to use. The capacitors need to be powerful, oil-filled units with a high voltage rating - in other words, large, heavy and expensive. The power being handled in one of these systems is large and setting one up is not without a certain degree of physical danger. These systems have been set to be self-powered but this is not recommended, presumably because of the possibility of runaway with the output power building up rapidly and boosting the input power until the motor burns out. have fun people. http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=rotoverter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z2pfnswn40 On 12/31/06, thomas malloy wrote: > > aqueous solution method. The vibrational researcher Dale Pond claims to > have tapped the strong nuclear force with his recreation of Kelley's > Dyansphere. There are the permanent magnetic generators that Steorn and MPI > claim to have under development. I'm a big fan of making the deserts bloom > by piping sea water in and brine out, and powering the whole thing with > solar and the bio evolved power. IMHO, this would also provide an unlimted > source of rare metals too. If nothing else, we have fossil fuel reserves > enough to last for 1000 years. Now there are a number of problems which are > going to have to be resolved, like where to get enough air to burn it, and > your children will have to convert to Islam. > Vortexians, did I miss any? > ------=_Part_133018_6650138.1167602309234 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "Kelley's Dyansphere"?? John Ernst Worrell Keely's Dynasphere . ( http://peswiki.com/index.php/John_Keely & http://www.svpvril.com )

you also missed the nonexistent discussion on the RotoVerter. http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Rotoverter
The outline details are as follows:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Image:D2_rotoverter01.JPG
The output device is an alternator which is driven by a three-phase mains-powered, 3 HP to 7.5 HP motor (both of these devices can be standard 'asynchronous squirrel-cage' motors). The drive motor is operated in a highly non-standard manner. It is a 240V motor with six windings as shown below. These windings are connected in series to make an arrangement which should require 480 volts to drive it, but instead, it is fed with 120 volts of single-phase AC. The input voltage for the motor, should always be a quarter of its rated operational voltage. A virtual third phase is created by using a capacitor which creates a 90-degree phase-shift between the applied voltage and the current.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Image:D2_rotoverter02.JPG
The objective is to tune the motor windings to give resonant operation. A start-up capacitor is connected into the circuit using the press-button switch shown, to get the motor up to speed, at which point the switch is released, allowing the motor to run with a much smaller capacitor in place. Although the running capacitor is shown as a fixed value, in practice, that capacitor needs to be adjusted while the motor is running, to give resonant operation. For this, a bank of capacitors is usually constructed, each capacitor having its own ON/OFF switch, so that different combinations of switch closures give a wide range of different overall values of capacitance. With the six capacitors shown above, any value from 0.5 microfarad to 31.5 microfarad can be rapidly switched to find the correct resonant value. These values allow combined values of 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, ... by selecting the appropriate switched to be ON or OFF. Should you need a value greater than this, then wire a 32 microfarad capacitor in place and connect the substitution box across it to test higher values step-by-step to find the optimum value of capacitor to use. The capacitors need to be powerful, oil-filled units with a high voltage rating - in other words, large, heavy and expensive. The power being handled in one of these systems is large and setting one up is not without a certain degree of physical danger. These systems have been set to be self-powered but this is not recommended, presumably because of the possibility of runaway with the output power building up rapidly and boosting the input power until the motor burns out.

have fun people.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=rotoverter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z2pfnswn40


On 12/31/06, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
aqueous solution method. The vibrational researcher Dale Pond claims to have tapped the strong nuclear force with his recreation of Kelley's Dyansphere. There are the permanent magnetic generators that Steorn and MPI claim to have under development. I'm a big fan of making the deserts bloom by piping sea water in and brine out, and powering the whole thing with solar and the bio evolved power. IMHO, this would also provide an unlimted source of rare metals too. If nothing else, we have fossil fuel reserves enough to last for 1000 years. Now there are a number of problems which are going to have to be resolved, like where to get enough air to burn it, and your children will have to convert to Islam.
Vortexians, did I miss any?
------=_Part_133018_6650138.1167602309234-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 14:07:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBVM6snY010608; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 14:06:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kBVM6qrf010586; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 14:06:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 14:06:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=K6J5WjUX0IFulH1oai/2nU93C42nnayXPivYRx06Hibnu/FnUNKDkVAOcBn1Mxx2; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: What Energy Crisis? Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 16:06:41 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <45982C79.1000309 usfamily.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405e134a8500d6863ca70d3fd6084eb3f4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: With or without 1000 years of reserves, one can only assume that ultimate control of a populace is imminent. Why? Because the information being given out to the people is nothing but doom and gloom. Thinking the sky is falling causes one to run for cover. For one I have been sick and tired of the _STUPID_ conservation mantra for many years now. I can sweat thought a shirt a day and freeze my ass of in the winter only to see my bill raise by (so far) 58% per year. Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with what is taking place? > -----Original Message----- > From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy usfamily.net] > Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:33 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: What Energy Crisis? > > > Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > > > > > > I didn't think it was that bad of an idea, or at least not bad enough > > to warrant: > > > > Does anyone here REALLY want to do something about the energy crisis, > > or do you just want to fuck around? > > What energy crisis? IMHO, the energy crisis you face is an inability to > generate a suitable income. I have the same problem. > > Over the past year we have discussed a number of areas which might > provide an unlimited source of pollution free energy. Among them are the > writings of Hal Puthoff, last week I posted a review of his paper on > EVO's, adding ? after comments that I don't understand. I also mentioned > the Frank Tippler's paper on generating anti matter. I mentioned a > drawing in Tippler's paper, which looks a lot like a drawing in one of > Ken Shoulder's papers. Hal was involved in the development of Shoulder's > EVO patents, which is prominently mentioned in the credits. We have had > numerous discussions of induced nuclear fusion, Hal's paper mentions one > potential route, I have mentioned resonant vibrations as another > potential route, and there is the electrical stimulation of metal in > aqueous solution method. The vibrational researcher Dale Pond claims to > have tapped the strong nuclear force with his recreation of Kelley's > Dyansphere. There are the permanent magnetic generators that Steorn and > MPI claim to have under development. I'm a big fan of making the deserts > bloom by piping sea water in and brine out, and powering the whole thing > with solar and the bio evolved power. IMHO, this would also provide an > unlimted source of rare metals too. If nothing else, we have fossil fuel > reserves enough to last for 1000 years. Now there are a number of > problems which are going to have to be resolved, like where to get > enough air to burn it, and your children will have to convert to Islam. > > Vortexians, did I miss any? > > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 16:21:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l010L294026335; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 16:21:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l010KxAx026312; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 16:20:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 16:20:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=GvRUpOiOsQeZ5YRL0JVCvcloXoIsT9Ns1qRK/1lnyyxLpHcdXpYMNNY5nCXFT1ts; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <33071602.1167610859049.JavaMail.root mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:20:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: What Energy Crisis? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c5fd55f669d9b44c8979e354fd5c61e2c0cdf93a589ab4c3c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.26 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >Over the past year we have discussed a number of areas which might >provide an unlimited source of pollution free energy. Among them are the >writings of Hal Puthoff, last week I posted a review of his paper on >EVO's . . . These are worthy ideas, but speculative and unproven. Even cold fusion is unproven as to practicality. We do have an energy crisis, and we will until one of these approaches is actually commercialized. >I'm a big fan of making the deserts >bloom by piping sea water in and brine out, and powering the whole thing >with solar and the bio evolved power. IMHO, this would also provide an >unlimted source of rare metals too. If you mean that large amounts of rare metals can be extracted from the brine, you are wrong, I am sorry to say. Most precious metals such as Au, Pd and Pt are available in such trace amounts that even a megaproject to irrigate 3.9 million square kilometers would yield only negligable amounts. See my book, Chapter 8, especially Table 8.2 and the refs listed therein. > If nothing else, we have fossil fuel >reserves enough to last for 1000 years. The use of fossil fuels constitutes an energy crisis, as I pointed out in chapter 4. Even if they do not cause global warming (which I think they do), they are far too expensive, dangerous, inconvenient and they cannot generate anywhere enough energy to do all that needs to be done here on earth, or elsewhere in the solar system. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 18:11:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l012Aqs9023977; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:10:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l012AldL023948; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:10:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:10:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=I7XkEhEQRhH5XHcpK569SFrrkqZg1PQ9yPn48De7Aw1KYa6C9i+JO27kPL9lHBMczLI6915fAhAvi0TnCoySdS12fI85w/TXe90hBcAnI25YguBNgUSJVbr1/px2qhb5c+iRY61Jo4AvUVGOkgiA/Mf9dsSeo56hCCMpbrBeLUo= ; Message-ID: <20070101021039.51747.qmail web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: RMsay6oVM1mL82MM9n_0IRdfPOLx9qSMtK8nOYc9SSuGnzSJfF.jxlwlcxUIUK5UAOI3QdLwHwogTsR7PFcASsYbhrAurYk2YF_W762aKGnvYeNl8w70sL1NSX3_DIrnvjZMifq3.UWjTrY- Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:10:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: What Energy Crisis? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <33071602.1167610859049.JavaMail.root mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <8R9B-D.A.E2F.m2GmFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: GreenFuel's president Dr. Isaac Berzin would also agree that there is no overwhelming energy crisis - but in a different sense. Oy veh! the good doctor doesn't need to drastically inflate petroleum reserves to imaginary levels to make a point, but instead offers the following data on the possibility of attaining hints of US self-sufficiency in liquid fuels: To replace all transportation fuels in the US, we would need roughly 140 billion gallons of biodiesel. With a 50% market penetration of hybrid drivetrains and other improvements, this could be reduced to 100 billion gallons, worth a quarter trillion$ at the pump at 2006 prices. This wont happen now, but could at least be phased-in - so as to offset continuing growth in drivers. To produce the larger amount of biodiesel by growing soybeans would require almost 3 billion acres of prime farm land, or over 1 billion acres growing canola (rapeseed), at nominal yields of 48 and 127 gallons oil per acre, respectively - and cost twice as much as the comparative value of petrol. This is impossible to do that anyway, and still provide food crops at a reasonable prices. Plus it is basically immoral - as long as people are hungry in Africa. To produce that same amount of biodiesel by growing algae on flooded desert would require a land mass of roughly 9.5 million acres (almost 15,000 square miles, far less than the largest county in Alaska). To put this number in perspective, consider that the Sonora desert in the southwestern US comprises eight times more land - 120,000 square miles. Algae are now producing 15,000 gallons per acre for the dozen startup companies and small farmers working on this strategy. Greater production is possible with engineered algae (yes, the dreaded green goo!) 450 million acres are currently used for crop farming in the US, and over 500 million acres are used as grazing land for farm animals, so the requirements for fuel are relatively trivial. As has been shown by many, it is not possible nor desireable to grow enough corn for ethanol to meet our fuel needs, but using lipids extracted from algae, not requiring distillation, for a substantial proportion of fuel - this is possible. Arguably - even now, the incredible ramp-up to ethanol in the Mid-West - that unsung phenomenon has already been partially responsible fro moderating the previous rapid rise in gasoline prices. Corn crops convert only about one percent of available sunlight to energy while algae can convert up to 60% and do it on land otherwise unusable for anything other than armadillos. Not that there's anything wrong with armadillos. At least the desert is usable if we can "back-up" the raging Rio Grande river Probably be cheaper than a big fence anyway. And if we can phase-in the home production and use of HOOH to boost biodiesel - we can and should avoid not only an energy crisis but higher prices - at least to about this time in 2012... Oy veh sez OPEC ! Comparing Ethanol to Oilgae is like comparing apples to ...err... algae? matter-of-fact, I propose to pronounce the new word "oilgae" to something like - Oy veh! Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 18:17:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l012H8CD025753; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:17:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l012H6Ko025735; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:17:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:17:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001a01c72d4a$e8bd5320$968f163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net><4592985C.6080806@pobox.com><002401c729da$8cfe3db0$5c9d163f@DFBGQZ91><001401c72c77$227f31c0$4bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <45982C79.1000309@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 21:16:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: What Energy Crisis? Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" To: Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 4:32 PM Subject: [Vo]: What Energy Crisis? > What energy crisis? IMHO, the energy crisis you face is an inability to > generate a suitable income. I have the same problem. We will, as time goes on, need more and greater sources of energy. Specifically, ones we can set up here in the USA, and not have to worry about zinc-plated dictators and Islamic whackjobs overseas. > Over the past year we have discussed a number of areas which might provide > an unlimited source of pollution free energy. Among them are the writings > of Hal Puthoff, last week I posted a review of his paper on EVO's, adding > ? after comments that I don't understand. I also mentioned the Frank > Tippler's paper on generating anti matter. I think I will get attacked for this but..... What has the ZPE hype ever gotten us? I remember a bunch of stuff years ago about doing something sort of screwy with hydrogen, I think along the lines of "squeezing" it through capillaries or somesuch that was supposed to make the ground-state orbit of electrons shrink around the hydrogen atoms, giving off energy. Then presumably the ZPE (which supposedly held up the electron in the ground-state orbit) would "refill" the atom, and get us back to normal sized hydrogen. It was sort of...far out. To be honest, we don't even know that ZPE exists in the sense that people rant about. Robert L. Forward had an interesting line of thought about interconverting energy and momentum, specifically angular momentum ---> energy. It was a nice idea, could be possible. But how do we DO it? Antimatter is not an energy source, it is an energy storage medium, and a very inefficient one at that. So is gasoline. Thing is, time was on our side for fossil fuels, and we got here after the hard work was already done. In that sense, all cars are solar powered, there is just a rather crummy conversion state in between. Now, if you want to get into violating baryon number and lepton number, maybe there is some way to "burn" matter into energy directly, say, make some sort of thing that converts 50% of your matter feed stock into antimatter, and the leftover 50% of normal matter does the rest. Better convert an equal number of baryons and leptons too, otherwise we get into charge conservation violations. If we can do that, then we are all set. But how do we do that? At some point, people were making blocks of very heavy, poisonous metals and got the idea to set a couple blocks close to each other, and then energy came from apparently nowhere. Who would have ever thought that something so *stupid* would ever do anything? Yet, here we are with nuclear reactors. The point is, the answers are undoubtedly there; but finding them is probably a mixture of (hopefully correct) insight, prayer, and pure damn luck. Trying to avoid aplastic anemia in the process is also probably a good thing. Now back to the subject.... We don't even NEED a breakthrough right now. We can build solar concentrating thermal collectors in the desert, and wind farms as well just to be safe, and solve this whole bloody problem. With today's technology. Actually 1970's technology. But I seriously doubt it is going to happen with Republicans or Democrats in power. Who else is there though? I don't know. > If nothing else, we have fossil fuel reserves enough to last for 1000 > years. Now there are a number of problems which are going to have to be > resolved, like where to get enough air to burn it, and your children will > have to convert to Islam. Fossil fuels are far more valuable, I think, as chemical feedstocks than to be literally sent up in smoke. We need them for fertilizers, plastics, all sorts of synthetics, etc. Why waste them by burning them up? No, we need to make our electricity from the only known fusion reactor that actually works and self sustains (the Sun, for those denser'n lead), and make our own synthetic fuels from them. I too hate the idea of "conservation". So why not build ourselves such an energy resource that we no longer need to conserve? And one that is clean to boot? I have serious doubts that we are causing "global warming", but if we have a nice solution that doesn't pollute, why not use it? --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 18:51:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l012pVRe002926; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:51:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l012pROb002908; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:51:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:51:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Subject: [Vo]: Re: What Energy Crisis? To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 02:50:43 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <2EASz.A.Yt.vcHmFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The diode array may come out of the lab in '07. Chips with billions of nanometer scale diodes in consistent alignment parallel series may power appliances cheaply and cleanly anywhere. Nanofabrication is needed. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 19:08:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0138OxV009416; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:08:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0138NDX009398; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:08:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:08:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 14:08:20 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1fugp2t5dfq6ettb69drcjg2kool04nr88 4ax.com> References: <4596EE1D.9090306@pobox.com> <45972A97.2040900@usfamily.net> <459741DB.1080805@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <459741DB.1080805 pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 1 Jan 2007 03:08:19 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0138La1009379 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Sat, 30 Dec 2006 23:51:39 -0500: Hi, [snip] >thomas malloy wrote: >> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> Sounds like a job for electrical heater cables to me. > >That, plus a 45 degree tilt, might be all that's needed. [snip] I don't think you need worry about heater cables. A flat plank nailed to the end of broomstick, will do for scraping loose snow off (don't stand under it ;) , and ice tends to be at least translucent. Since the panels themselves are dark blue/black, they should warm up relatively quickly once there is enough Sun light to be useful. Since the house is in a cold climate where snow is expected, I assume it has a fairly steep pitch to the roof anyway. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 19:57:09 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l013v1P2028140; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:57:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l013utsa028116; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:56:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:56:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: What Energy Crisis? Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 14:56:45 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <841hp21lhrihf56pk2e7orhu3td921j0mp 4ax.com> References: <410-220061232743613166 earthlink.net><4592985C.6080806@pobox.com><002401c729da$8cfe3db0$5c9d163f@DFBGQZ91><001401c72c77$227f31c0$4bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <45982C79.1000309@usfamily.net> <001a01c72d4a$e8bd5320$968f163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <001a01c72d4a$e8bd5320$968f163f DFBGQZ91> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 1 Jan 2007 03:56:51 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l013uqm2028094 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Kyle R. Mcallister's message of Sun, 31 Dec 2006 21:16:53 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Now, if you want to get into violating baryon number and lepton number, >maybe there is some way to "burn" matter into energy directly, say, make >some sort of thing that converts 50% of your matter feed stock into >antimatter, and the leftover 50% of normal matter does the rest. Better >convert an equal number of baryons and leptons too, otherwise we get into >charge conservation violations. If we can do that, then we are all set. But >how do we do that? The proton21 crowd may have found alternative clean nuclear reactions, capable of using essentially any matter as fuel (probably only metals at present). http://www.proton21.com.ua/index_en.html Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 21:06:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0156VKD007166; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 21:06:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0156THf007105; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 21:06:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 21:06:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Contact Potential, Capacitors and Light Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 16:05:40 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-22006126309426372 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-22006126309426372 earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 1 Jan 2007 05:05:47 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0155lP9006319 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 30 Dec 2006 02:42:06 -0700: Hi, [snip] I've messed this up royally before, so take this with a pound of salt. ;) >Given that no current flows due to contact potential >between dissimilar metals; I think a current does flow initially, when the metals first make contact. > >1, will the contact potential charge a capacitor? After contact is established, and the current has stopped flowing, there is no potential difference between the metals, hence no potential to charge the capacitor with. They might charge a capacitor prior to making contact, if the capacitor is made in two halves, with each half made of the same metal as the block to which it is attached. IOW the cap. itself would be made of two different metals. > >2, will photons striking one of the metals of >the metal couple charge a capacitor connected >across it? Across what? If you mean connected across the metal divide, then the answer is no, because there is no potential difference across the divide, though to the extent that electrons are evaporated from the metal, the remaining electrons in both pieces of metal will redistribute themselves. Nevertheless, the metal would essentially be shorting the capacitor. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 23:04:59 2006 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0174dgS003688; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:04:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0174cMB003658; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:04:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:04:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4598B268.3080301 usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 01:04:08 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: What Energy Crisis? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R Stiffler wrote: > > >For one I have been sick and tired of the _STUPID_ conservation mantra for many years now. I can sweat thought a shirt a day and freeze my ass of in the winter only to see my bill raise by (so far) 58% per year. > >Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with what is taking place? > > No, it's going to cost more and more to produce the energy. Also there is matter of inflation of the dollar. I'm a big fan of waste not, want not. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 23:28:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l017ShER012709; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:28:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l017SaQm012688; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:28:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:28:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4598B80C.1040605 usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 01:28:12 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: algae to oil Status: O X-Status: Jones posted; long as people are hungry in Africa. To produce that same amount of biodiesel by growing algae on flooded desert would require a land mass of roughly 9.5 million acres (almost 15,000 square miles, far less than the largest county in Alaska). To put this number in perspective, consider that the Sonora desert in the southwestern US comprises eight times more land - 120,000 square miles. Thank you Jones. Then there is the matter of the land area formerly known as the Sahara Forest. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---