From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 00:40:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k817edZH017988; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:40:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k817ebS2017974; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:40:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:40:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: OT: Oersted X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster@excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20060901074032.A64BC8A199@xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 03:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70571 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > This might be an example of why credentials matter > when a significant discovery is made. Maybe Romagnosi was ignored > because his was viewed as an "amateur"?? It's from histories such as this one that I have finally come to the conclusion that really original discoveries are rarely attributed to the right people. I have quite a list of similar incidents, but I won't bore you Vorts with all of them. This particular historical error originates from typical French arrogance. The great Charles de Coulomb had "proven" mathematically that electricity and magnetism could not affect one another. This suppressed any notion that they might for some time, and any results to the contrary were ignored. Remember that Oersted's rediscovery of this principle occured after Coulomb was dead. Even the brilliant Ampère seems to have been diverted from discovering the reverse effect by Coulomb's reputation, though he had coils of wire and magnets right there on his work bench. Instead, the credit went to Faraday, although apparently William Henry made the discovery slightly before Faraday, but did not publish it. For a short period during that time you could actually be arrested in France for publishing anything suggesting electromagnetic induction, I suppose to protect Coulomb's reputation. Similarly, when Davy discovered chlorine, you could be arrested in France for publishing anything claiming that chlorine is an element, as this contradicted Lavoisier. On the other hand, maybe the whole thing could be attributed to the fact that Italian scientists just can't get no respect. Rhigi constructed the "Van de Graaff" generator a couple of hundred years before Van de Graaff. Olinto de Pretto published E=mc^2 a year or two before Einstein and so on. But really, I think that humans just can't accept the truth until they are ready. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 01:56:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k818u2Lr000631; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:56:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k818u1o4000597; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:56:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:56:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <19319.165.165.26.141.1157100956.squirrel@mail.webmail.co.za> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:55:56 +0200 (SAST) From: harrietoliver@webmail.co.za To: vortex-L@eskimo.com User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70572 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Substantiating From: harrietoliver@webmail.co.za Date: Fri, September 1, 2006 10:27 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: info@steorm.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good Day, Even here in South Africa I got to read in "The Mercury", "Has he found the Holy Grail of science?" re. scientist Sean Mc Carthy & co. Steorm that placed ad. in Economist. The point I wish to make is there is a similarity between energy "discovered" & that reputedly used in Atlantis before sinking below ocean floor, presumably as result of these same energy forces having caused break up in earth's structure, as also referred to by The Speeping Prophet. In relation to above I wish to substantiate by copying following extract from www.crystalinks.com "Atlantean Crystals Theories about Atlantis mention the extensive use of crystals by Atlanteans. Crystals varied in patterns or grid - sizes - color combinations - and tones. Crystals follow harmonic frequencies and could be used with an instrument that looks like a tuning fork. They received power from a variety of sources, including the Sun, the Earth's energy grid system, or from each other. Atlanteans allegedly harnessed the energies of the pyramids, using crystals to that end. As we have the Great Pyramid at the center of the planet linked to the grid matrix that creates our reality, so, too, did the Atlanteans. Their pyramid allegedly sunk to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean which is a metaphor about returning to the collective unconsciousness or source of creation. Just as we have major and minor grid points of energy on the planet - so did the Atlanteans. Grids point are often marked by pyramids. The Atlanteans used this energy, combined with crystals, to transmit energy from one pyramid to another. Depending on the tilt of the Earth's axis at a particular time of the year, one pyramid would function to intensify and transmit energies to other pyramids which would then act as receiving devices and would disperse energy as it was needed. The opposite would apply when that pyramid was at an unfocusable point to their celestial alignment, when other pyramids would be used as transmiters. It was an intricate matrix crystal grid system. Uses of Crystals - Healing, childbirth, crossing over - Meditation, awakening, increasing psychic abilities - Increasing mental capacity and clarity of thought - Science and technology - Dematerialization - teleportation - telekinesis - Magnetic force fields - Libraries - storing records and other knowledge, much like a computer - Botany and agriculture - Weather Control - Huge crystal tower power generators - Communication - Crystals have the ability to transfer energy, to retain it, to maintain its intensity, to focus and transmit it over great distance to similar receivers as are equal or comparable to the transmitter. The larger stones, called Fire Crystals, were the central receiving and broadcasting stations, while others acted as receivers for individual cities, buildings, vehicles and homes. On a higher spiritual level, rooms made of crystals were places where the Initiates left their bodies in the Final Transcendence, often never to return. Edgar Cayce One of the most detailed descriptions of the Atlantean use of a mysterious instrument called the Great Crystal was given by Edgar Cayce, who mentioned it many times. The crystal, he said was housed in a special building oval in shape, with a dome that could be rolled back, exposing the Crystal to the light of the sun, moon and stars at the most favorable time. The interior of the building was lined with non-conducting metal or stone, similar to asbestos or bakelite, a thermosetting plastic. The Crystal itself, the Tuaoi Stone, or Firestone, was huge in size, cylindrical in length, and prismatic in shape, cut with six sides. Atop the crystal was a moveable capstone, used to both concentrate incoming rays of energy, and to direct currents to various parts of the Atlantean countryside. It appears that the Crystal gathered solar, lunar, stellar, atmospheric and Earth energies as well as unknown elemental forces and concentrated these at a specific point, located between the top of the Crystal and the bottom of the capstone. The energy was used for various purposes. In the beginning it was used as purely a spiritual tool by initiates who could handle the great energy. The early Atlanteans were peaceful people. As they developed more physical material bodies, they used the crystal to rejuvenate their bodies and were able to live hundreds of years while maintaining a youthful appearance. Later the Great Crystal was put to other uses. Currents of energy were transmitted throughout the land, like radio waves, and powered by these, crafts and vehicles traversed the land, through the sky and under the sea at the speed of sound. By utilization of other currents originating from the Great Crystal, the Atlanteans were also able to transmit over great distances the human voice, and pictures, like modern television. In the same manner, even heat and light could be directed to specific buildings or open arenas, giving illumination and warmth by seemingly invisible means. In this timeline, in the Bermuda Triangle, on the ocean bottom where the ruins of Atlantis now exist, the energy build-up in the sunken and damaged Fire Crystals can periodically trigger materialization of anything. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Atlantean Seed Crystals Seed crystals are both physical and part of our genetic encoded crystaline make-up. Triangular Prism Crystals Symbology: As is Above - So is Below The Emerald Tablets of Thoth the Atlantean -- Hermes Trismegistus -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Spiral Prism Crystals This crystal links with the fibonacci spiral -the spiraling energies of creation based on the patterns of Sacred Geometry. Consciousness spirals as if from the top of a pyramid - down to third dimension. The lower you spiral - the slower the energies move - until you can no longer remember what exists above and the nature of who you are as your consciousness becomes Frozen in Time - Ice Age metaphor - Crystals and Ice. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Love Star Crystals This crystal contains 6 sides and 6 facets on the top. The bottom is shaped like a cone - pyramids. The Flower of Life - Star of David - Merkaba - Qabbalah Star Tetrahedron Atlantean Seed Crystals were flawless, grew as we grow flowers - [flower of life metaphor - seeds - seeding a race] and were used for healing - [the human experiment is about healing issues] Crystal Healing Temple The Fall of Atlantis As the story goes ... the people of Atlantis had many warnings before the continent sank - [the Atlantean program ended]. Prior to closure, crystals were allegedly used to store information which would be found in our timeline by those who programmed them. These crystals contained the original star codes for the Atlantean program. Once found, the crystals would be used as a means of helping them remember. But if all is happening in the NOW, than we are in a parallel situation, though Atlantis seems like thousands of years ago. Our souls are experiencing in both grid programs simultaneously and the crystals are our spiraling DNA moving consciousness between realities to learn." Science fiction, virtual reality or Cloud Cuckoo Land? Only time will tell. Yours sincerely Harriet P.s. I found referral to tilt of axis prevalent and relevant to positioning/angle of magnets by Sean. ------------------------------------------- "South Africas premier free email service - www.webmail.co.za ------------------------------------------- "South Africas premier free email service - www.webmail.co.za From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 03:06:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81A07Ik032286; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 03:05:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k819mvCQ025506; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:48:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:48:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:43:51 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70573 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Steorn: MP3 interview with Sean McCarthy Status: O X-Status: Here's an interview with Steorn, done by the "Steornwatch" website guy "Steornwatch" show, interview with Steorn http://tinyurl.com/od2zz A few highlights: - They already tried to do it quietly. Several scientists in Europe, UK, and Ireland have already fully analyzed the invention. But they all refused to go on record withtheir results or their names. - They've used it to directly lift weights. But they haven't hooked up the device to a generator because "it doesn't mean anything." - They're *certain* that the route they've taken is the only way that the technology could get out; that professional physicsts *have* to test it and track down the energy source, or at least validate that it works. (Hmm. They don't think that direct empirical evidence does anything? That they could make a bunch of working models and give them away? Or start selling kits and DVDs, like the "Levitron" toy?" But then, in the UK if you make your discovery public before the patent is issued, the patent is ruined. In the USA you have a 1-year grace period.) - They think that when it's validated, lots of other companies will jump in with much better patents: that it's not the discoverer who makes the big bucks, it's the "second guy." So they just want to make some bucks from their own patents and step aside. - They think the easiest application will be phones and laptops (!!!) and they intend to patent and sell licences for those apps., and not charge fees for other applications (like generators in villiages for 3rd-world countries.) It's because major power plants take 6 years from the dr - Someone published their home addresses online. Someone (blogger?) was hanging around outside and scared Sean's family, and when approached the person ran off. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 04:27:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81BRVqt014459; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 04:27:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81BRT3b014446; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 04:27:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 04:27:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BbK4bLAOrvXxumpRGFcWbcsQWnjtWI+cxcbwHQoF4RvJ6m3qSgREif+vv/l4NOMxjR8rdJucwTKTpbd6kNq1fSaD/Vyv6sjjfmRSMyN+JXMF0L+S057M3aqvuKvqt6HBnPnyb5WcaUDGwOcAq2mR5VWimVIEcr1oNlYTP8mGGeo= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:25:42 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aether and free energy, etc In-Reply-To: <44F7D48A.4090007@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1B9D8@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <44F7D48A.4090007@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70574 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 9/1/06, thomas malloy wrote: > Hum, There is a physics professor Dr. Gates. I listened to him lecture > on the matter. He believes that String Theory is very much alive. I > intend to send him an email with Dale Pond's URL and my comment that > Keely's work reminds me of String Theory. There are over 10^400 different string theories and not one is falsifiable. Let's just say string theory is in the CCU until the LHC is built and operating in about one year. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 04:31:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81BVN5g017934; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 04:31:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81BVKTw017905; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 04:31:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 04:31:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WX+Xa1x1vS+QNavdS4GS14c/Fkui3fsx1BX9+BwCpUK71flc6fz/YK6p0b8bt+OJAx3ZF3CojkTSdYFQQxpAt/1yHSC0SZSWum8yFovB/P9Y+3bRbjJlzkjPJudmMC+a4Cca3m8AiJT3YEsBknRQ4q9YMlo5vs4I3hVe6oGRz78= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:31:19 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <19319.165.165.26.141.1157100956.squirrel@mail.webmail.co.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <19319.165.165.26.141.1157100956.squirrel@mail.webmail.co.za> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70575 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9/1/06, harrietoliver@webmail.co.za wrote: > - Communication - Crystals have the ability to transfer energy, to retain > it, to maintain its intensity, to focus and transmit it over great > distance to similar receivers as are equal or comparable to the > transmitter. And are often used in heterodyne mixers to extract information from electromagnetic radiation. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 06:48:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81DmKK0028224; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:48:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81DmIkW028199; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:48:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:48:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=HQsIi/3qO5Yk//fkolI3tj90wNs6SYKYSpOIeReP0pw5Z2Fc/DoJ/nezuELo5p+Y5pKunbPruLtygGvXAWZXLw8muYGJTW0nPmzQZe87XzAWRiLhPiESe3t0H7wDhkF60TUF7vPPQArvUL9dT2+6tfEId+6zvYFiLxczns4Qsb4= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 01:46:36 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <00d001c6cd4c$1f9bf180$6401a8c0@NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_6220_31398788.1157118396840" References: <20060831170228.28416.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <00d001c6cd4c$1f9bf180$6401a8c0@NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: <5KFHZB.A.h4G.hoD-EB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70580 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_6220_31398788.1157118396840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I get what you mean with regard to the peepshow comment, yes it would be nice if when practical he closed the loop or did something to make it more final. What would you have had him do in the case of Mizuno though? (I haven't looked much or at all at the replication in question) As for the MAHG I can't seem to find the group, if you can locate either the post or the group that would be great. He ran a dummy load test which came to the correct figure, I find it hard to believe that 20 COP times can become underunity, 10 times maybe he's out by an order of magnitude somehow but I can't see how he can be that far out so I'd love to see that post. On 9/1/06, Jones Beene wrote: > > No, Naudin is not hoaxing - closer to needing a lesson in measuring P-in. > > BTW - when in the past has Naudin been proven correct, *with independent > replication,* on any OU experiment ? I think it would be wise to question > every conclusion he has made. Most are lacking. > > Read George Holtz's post on the 20x power measurement error made by > Naudin. It is on the MAHG forum. > > Don't get me wrong - I admire the effort put in by Naudin and his skill as > a builder of a wide assortment of unfinished and *promising* experiments - > but his refusal to admit obvious errors and to correct the errors online - > as with the MEG and MAHG is irresponsible. > > And then the biggest objection is that he leaves everything in > a cliff-hanging state - why can't he push forward and finish what he has > started if there is a hint of OU - as with Mizuno? > > His M.O over at least a dozen experiments is to show a provocative glimpse > of what could be OU, with a well constructed experiment BUT then to abruptly > and without explanation - move onto the next glimpse. Peep show science ! > > ... not there is anything wrong with drama... or peep shows for that > matter > > Jones > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* John Berry > *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com > *Sent:* Thursday, August 31, 2006 3:01 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Vo]: Re: MAHG at TeslaTech convention > > Unless your accusing Naudin of hoaxing it what do you mean no proof!?! > > 20+ COP, that's pretty straight forward! > > And personally I wouldn't question Naudin, he has proven himself numerous > times over many years. > > That doesn't mean the Hydrogen recombination theory is correct, maybe it > is a way to tap vacuum energy (strikes me Aspden might agree having read > some of his stuff the other day) and maybe it isn't but how do you know that > recombination of hydrogen can't lead to tapping vacuum energy under the > right conditions? > > Build it and prove him wrong. > > Actually the only thing puzzling me is why more than a year after a > successful reproducible 20+ COP FE machine which is relatively straight > forward to replicate there is no obvious sign of them showing up for sale > anytime soon, Ok it creates heat not electricity and even if we assume that > turning heat into electricity is bothersome enough to discourage it as the > primary energy source for homes why not a really efficient heater? > > Tempted to build one myself if someone can suggest an efficient low cost > way to turn heat into electricity, anyone know where to get Sterling engines > that can do about 1kw? Steam Turbine? > > > On 9/1/06, Jones Beene wrote: > > > > > > --- John Berry wrote: > > > > > Bill Lyne believes much the same [basic > > misunderstanding of hydrogen chemistry -in the > > explanation] > > > > A google search for Thorsten Ludwig, President of the > > German Association for Space Energy (GASE), indicates > > that he resides in Berlin, Germany and is a > > spokesperson for alternative energy innovations in > > Europe. > > > > Recently completing a PhD, his doctoral thesis was on > > the Casimir Effect and zero point energy. He has > > participated in the Casimir Force colloquia overseas > > and is apparently an inspiring speaker with some > > credentials... > > > > ... making his inane repetition at this conference - > > of obvious and glaring fundamental mistakes in the > > original Naudin/Moller writeup - all the more > > mysterious... > > > > This does not necessarily mean that they haven't found > > excess energy [yet there is still little real proof > > for that] - it only means there is more high level > > ignorance in the field than there should be. One > > suspects another "mail order PhD" - ala Bearden. > > > > Repetition of a flawed experiment proves more about > > the repeater than the original premise. > > > > Jones > > > > > ------=_Part_6220_31398788.1157118396840 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I get what you mean with regard to the peepshow comment, yes it would be nice if when practical he closed the loop or did something to make it more final.

What would you have had him do in the case of Mizuno though? (I haven't looked much or at all at the replication in question)

As for the MAHG I can't seem to find the group, if you can locate either the post or the group that would be great.

He ran a dummy load test which came to the correct figure, I find it hard to believe that 20 COP times can become underunity, 10 times maybe he's out by an order of magnitude somehow but I can't see how he can be that far out so I'd love to see that post.


On 9/1/06, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:
No, Naudin is not hoaxing - closer to needing a lesson in measuring P-in.
 
BTW - when in the past has Naudin been proven correct, *with independent replication,* on any OU experiment ? I think it would be wise to question every conclusion he has made. Most are lacking.
 
Read George Holtz's post on the 20x power measurement error made by Naudin. It is on the MAHG forum.
 
Don't get me wrong - I admire the effort put in by Naudin and his skill as a builder of a wide assortment of unfinished and *promising* experiments - but his refusal to admit obvious errors and to correct the errors online - as with the MEG and MAHG is irresponsible. 
 
And then the biggest objection is that he leaves everything in a cliff-hanging state - why can't he push forward and finish what he has started if there is a hint of OU - as with Mizuno?
 
His M.O over at least a dozen experiments is to show a provocative glimpse of what could be OU, with a well constructed experiment BUT then to abruptly and without explanation - move onto the next glimpse. Peep show science !
 
... not there is anything wrong with drama... or peep shows for that matter <g>
 
Jones
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: John Berry
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: MAHG at TeslaTech convention

Unless your accusing Naudin of hoaxing it what do you mean no proof!?!

20+ COP, that's pretty straight forward!

And personally I wouldn't question Naudin, he has proven himself numerous times over many years.

That doesn't mean the Hydrogen recombination theory is correct, maybe it is a way to tap vacuum energy (strikes me Aspden might agree having read some of his stuff the other day) and maybe it isn't but how do you know that recombination of hydrogen can't lead to tapping vacuum energy under the right conditions?

Build it and prove him wrong.

Actually the only thing puzzling me is why more than a year after a successful reproducible 20+ COP FE machine which is relatively straight forward to replicate there is no obvious sign of them showing up for sale anytime soon, Ok it creates heat not electricity and even if we assume that turning heat into electricity is bothersome enough to discourage it as the primary energy source for homes why not a really efficient heater?

Tempted to build one myself if someone can suggest an efficient low cost way to turn heat into electricity, anyone know where to get Sterling engines that can do about 1kw? Steam Turbine?


On 9/1/06, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:

--- John Berry wrote:

> Bill Lyne believes much the same [basic
misunderstanding of hydrogen chemistry -in the
explanation]

A google search for Thorsten Ludwig, President of the
German Association for Space Energy (GASE), indicates
that he resides in Berlin, Germany and is a
spokesperson for alternative energy innovations in
Europe.

Recently completing a PhD, his doctoral thesis was on
the Casimir Effect and zero point energy. He has
participated in the Casimir Force colloquia overseas
and is apparently an inspiring speaker with some
credentials...

... making his inane repetition at this conference -
of obvious and glaring fundamental mistakes in the
original Naudin/Moller writeup - all the more
mysterious...

This does not necessarily mean that they haven't found
excess energy  [yet there is still little real proof
for that] - it only means there is more high level
ignorance in the field than there should be. One
suspects another "mail order PhD" - ala Bearden.

Repetition of a flawed experiment proves more about
the repeater than the original premise.

Jones



------=_Part_6220_31398788.1157118396840-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 06:56:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81DoFlC029820; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:56:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81DZTnR016978; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:35:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:35:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=D/PEw/nyThhOm/bRvPnO0bdywoM7ZqbP2AjL8erpD5xLGVJocsw9qoxDxneaHqpMRgfMpqc8Dbls/hxTmHIelfb/6UZZKQJxN3x4quP60F3DsIKVQ4kDhilCx9g/iyLUHz+BIh5CI3x6m/RXcx/0Njy411xvCVGRoSzl21qhj5A= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 01:25:20 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5648_30743737.1157117120596" References: <19319.165.165.26.141.1157100956.squirrel@mail.webmail.co.za> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70579 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_5648_30743737.1157117120596 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Seriously? I mistakenly use Sterling instead of Stirling and you see fit to remark, but Harriet posts some very hard to entertain (even if your open minded) new age stuff about Atlantis and crystals somehow relating to a magnetic perpetual motion machines and you decide to contribute? On 9/1/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > > On 9/1/06, harrietoliver@webmail.co.za > wrote: > > > - Communication - Crystals have the ability to transfer energy, to > retain > > it, to maintain its intensity, to focus and transmit it over great > > distance to similar receivers as are equal or comparable to the > > transmitter. > > And are often used in heterodyne mixers to extract information from > electromagnetic radiation. > > Terry > > ------=_Part_5648_30743737.1157117120596 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Seriously? I mistakenly use Sterling instead of Stirling and you see fit to remark, but Harriet posts some very hard to entertain (even if your open minded) new age stuff about Atlantis and crystals somehow relating to a magnetic perpetual motion machines and you decide to contribute?


On 9/1/06, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
On 9/1/06, harrietoliver@webmail.co.za <harrietoliver@webmail.co.za> wrote:

> - Communication - Crystals have the ability to transfer energy, to retain
> it, to maintain its intensity, to focus and transmit it over great
> distance to similar receivers as are equal or comparable to the
> transmitter.

And are often used in heterodyne mixers to extract information from
electromagnetic radiation.

Terry


------=_Part_5648_30743737.1157117120596-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 06:57:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81DoFlE029820; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:56:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81DH9km000907; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:17:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:17:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200609011316.k81DGtAt086188@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 08:16:54 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_60e5cbc602f0485e1211e24a27bac681" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 66.168.30.131 Resent-Message-ID: <3uOpiD.A.6N.VLD-EB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70578 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=_60e5cbc602f0485e1211e24a27bac681 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr. Zimmerman was kind enough to post an interesting STEORN article, which quotes McCarthy, on the YAHOO Hydrino Discussion group. See: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2331264,00.html http://tinyurl.com/ztfys TITLE: Inventor keeps his perpetual motion machine under a cloak of invisibility Of particular interest to me was the implications stated in the following paragraph: > Dr White, an atomic physicist at University > College Dublin, had a straightforward question: > “Why not publish your results in a peer review > journal and go and collect your Nobel prize > when you are vindicated?” He added: “If he is > right, he will have solved the riddle of the > Universe and brought peace to the Middle East.” ...which amused the hell out of me. What "peer review" publication would dare publish what appears to be on the surface a perpetual motion contraption? And then Dr. White says the device (if true) would bring "peace to the Middle East." If this contraption turned out to be the genuine article the last thing it would bring is "peace to the Middle East." Quite the opposite would occur, as propped up governments begin to topple as internal strife and revolution run rampant through most of the oil dominated regimes. The additional political instability in the middle east would also likely drag plenty of other world governments into disarray for quite a tumultuous time before things eventually settled back to some form of sanity. This is not to say that I believe the STEORM device is the genuine article. At present I really don't know. It just pisses me off that we have an "atomic physicist", whom one would assume is in a position of authority and/or knowledge spout things that when one thinks about it in a little more depth are pretty ridiculous and naïve. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_60e5cbc602f0485e1211e24a27bac681 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dr. Zimmerman was kind enough to post an interesting STEORN article, which = quotes McCarthy, on the YAHOO Hydrino Discussion group. See:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2331264,00.html
http://tinyurl.com/ztfys


TITLE: Inventor keeps his perpetual motion machine under a cloak of invisib= ility

Of particular interest to me was the implications stated in the following p= aragraph:


> Dr White, an atomic physicist at University
> College Dublin, had a straightforward question:
> =93Why not publish your results in a peer review
> journal and go and collect your Nobel prize
> when you are vindicated?=94 He added: =93If he is
> right, he will have solved the riddle of the
> Universe and brought peace to the Middle East.=94


...which amused the hell out of me. What "peer review" publication would da= re publish what appears to be on the surface a perpetual motion contraption= ? And then Dr. White says the device (if true) would bring "peace to the Mi= ddle East." If this contraption turned out to be the genuine article the la= st thing it would bring is "peace to the Middle East." Quite the opposite w= ould occur, as propped up governments begin to topple as internal strife an= d revolution run rampant through most of the oil dominated regimes. The add= itional political instability in the middle east would also likely drag ple= nty of other world governments into disarray for quite a tumultuous time be= fore things eventually settled back to some form of sanity.

This is not to say that I believe the STEORM device is the genuine article.= At present I really don't know. It just pisses me off that we have an "ato= mic physicist", whom one would assume is in a position of authority and/or = knowledge spout things that when one thinks about it in a little more depth= are pretty ridiculous and na=EFve.


Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_60e5cbc602f0485e1211e24a27bac681-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 06:57:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81DoFlG029820; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:56:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81D35Im022438; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:03:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:03:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=NYZ7JyQNc4DujUCXWUqRNE85ld/baI5goQISE12tbXQ+f3ttSs155FPD9lSj8vVsAtKV/okl9xvxGk5zRCVQebkpBtsypFjJBRyLzWQOrQzE03S3McjFF2xgkUd7iCvV96Y7SJb7a/LzgfYW15eU7Wj403IFWQ1KrHj6vH9LLdg= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 01:02:57 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fwd: MAHG at TeslaTech convention In-Reply-To: <44F7D40F.8040205@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5172_17651490.1157115777858" References: <20060831035425.26016.qmail@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <44F7D40F.8040205@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70577 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_5172_17651490.1157115777858 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Of course there are those that claim that, but this isn't about seperation and recombination of H2 and O but of H and H. On 9/1/06, thomas malloy wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > > > > > > On 8/31/06, *Jones Beene* > > wrote: > > > > This message came form Terry Holmes: > > > > His presentation pretty much consisted of the 2005 > > Naudin results > > with photos from the web site from last > > summer--complete with the > > Van Nostrand [incorrect!} quotes implying that the > > energy of combination of hydrogen was 90,000 time > > > > greater than the energy of disassociation (?!). > > > > > > Bill Lyne believes much the same. > > > > > Does that mean that it is theoretically possible to run an engine on the > hydrogen / oxygen produced by an electrolyze, and run the electrolyze on > the alternator? Several people have asserted that this is possible, I'm > still waiting for someone to demonstrate this. I could heat my house, > and by selling the surplus electricity to the utility afford A C. > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > ------=_Part_5172_17651490.1157115777858 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Of course there are those that claim that, but this isn't about seperation and recombination of H2 and O but of H and H.

On 9/1/06, thomas malloy < temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
John Berry wrote:

>
>
> On 8/31/06, *Jones Beene* < jonesb9@pacbell.net
> <mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net>> wrote:
>
>     This message came form Terry Holmes:
>     <snip>
>     His presentation pretty much consisted of the 2005
>     Naudin results
>     with photos from the web site from last
>     summer--complete with the
>     Van Nostrand [incorrect!} quotes implying that the
>     energy of combination of  hydrogen was 90,000 time
>
>     greater than the energy of disassociation  (?!).
>
>
> Bill Lyne believes much the same.
>
>
Does that mean that it is theoretically possible to run an engine on the
hydrogen / oxygen produced by an electrolyze, and run the electrolyze on
the alternator? Several people have asserted that this is possible, I'm
still waiting for someone to demonstrate this. I could heat my house,
and by selling the surplus electricity to the utility afford A C.



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---


------=_Part_5172_17651490.1157115777858-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 06:57:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81DoFlI029820; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:57:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81CBigl011056; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 05:11:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 05:11:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=qqXzLnSMX9ze23vVBML/4WlsYdDQEdLFDTPlqYVKbv3fyZ5gv1Fasnyp/3fwDBk1330DQqa4zJ5GwYFYj71gG+ot9pGFd7VPfvAKfW0bVuxC7oqFnItZPKMgtdM1ukoVP5NiRC8BSuT7OZkVGuYERSmSvSKGC3NeGdyiUIBDYl0= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:09:32 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm In-Reply-To: <44F7D462.8060902@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4499_504007.1157112572856" References: <44F6FBDE.2040904@iinet.net.au> <44F7D462.8060902@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70576 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_4499_504007.1157112572856 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >>OTOH, I recall a man who build a "F E" circuit which worked by microwave radiation from a near by source. Who? On 9/1/06, thomas malloy wrote: > > Wesley Bruce wrote: > > > Your overlooking the problem of patents. The patent will not be > > allowed if the theory is disputed and it gets worse if there is no > > theory at > > Patents are intended to protect applications. > > The discussion about the Steorm machine caused me to recall a patent for > a permanent magnetic mechanical motor. As I recall the patentee's names > were Jines, and Jines. My friend had plans to build a working prototype, > but AFAIK, he has yet to get the job done. The part of the mechanism > that involved shielding the magnet with Mu metal is similar. > > I am mystified at the amount of bandwidth which has been expended over > this matter. I realize that if the principals are fraudulent then only > independent replication and testing will definitively answer the > question. However, IMHO, if the "motor" can power a device for an > extended period of time, that's a pretty good indication that it is > performing as promised. > > OTOH, I recall a man who build a "F E" circuit which worked by microwave > radiation from a near by source. > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > ------=_Part_4499_504007.1157112572856 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >>OTOH, I recall a man who build a "F E" circuit which worked by microwave
radiation from a near by source.


Who?


On 9/1/06, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
Wesley Bruce wrote:

> Your overlooking the problem of patents. The patent will not be
> allowed if the theory is disputed and it gets worse if there is no
> theory at

Patents are intended to protect applications.

The discussion about the Steorm machine caused me to recall a patent for
a permanent magnetic mechanical motor. As I recall the patentee's names
were Jines, and Jines. My friend had plans to build a working prototype,
but AFAIK, he has yet to get the job done. The part of the mechanism
that involved shielding the magnet with Mu metal is similar.

I am mystified at the amount of bandwidth which has been expended over
this matter. I realize that if the principals are fraudulent then only
independent replication and testing will definitively answer the
question. However, IMHO, if the "motor" can power a device for an
extended period of time, that's a pretty good indication that it is
performing as promised.

OTOH, I recall a man who build a "F E" circuit which worked by microwave
radiation from a near by source.



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---


------=_Part_4499_504007.1157112572856-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 07:23:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81ENduU027757; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:23:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81ENa2Z027735; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:23:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:23:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GeJlAA+G9/yI4hDJMKW8NKyfP/KuFz4V7sxvGaVvZ2um0BHPVHK/pZOC/b2LLIyxOeAUyUB7MHzmUEPnKxCLggeA90ZPu/tg3VaQSljhoY6+VKPEQpbI5jsuS22oOCGt3ANTzjeo6FrMY8luZtYzAmEj12bQHpi5l0q9IXF0sO0= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:23:34 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <19319.165.165.26.141.1157100956.squirrel@mail.webmail.co.za> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70581 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9/1/06, John Berry wrote: > Seriously? I mistakenly use Sterling instead of Stirling and you see fit to > remark, but Harriet posts some very hard to entertain (even if your open > minded) new age stuff about Atlantis and crystals somehow relating to a > magnetic perpetual motion machines and you decide to contribute? Hmmm; so, I gather you do not see the humor in my comment, eh? Terri From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 07:41:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81Ef6fv008678; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:41:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81Ef4LP008586; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:41:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:41:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=VAeiWHl0Ag6oFDRaMvkGcufBiKJje7ZIdxLBf2whmBtR6myuhj8rhHeaiuBNhY7zZt8VjuDfTCU8EB8yNdCBrVkNoMx60OyNo0Sp4iKlvSkknl0hAIBXxX63hmZk1zma1jeMwBuzT/i/o9tBTxXFmW2wtWMORYx/fWAqIEKc+6E= ; Message-ID: <007701c6cdd4$a2a39c30$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20060831170228.28416.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <00d001c6cd4c$1f9bf180$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:40:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0074_01C6CD99.F5885200" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70582 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: MAHG/ Naudin Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01C6CD99.F5885200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Berry=20 As for the MAHG I can't seem to find the group, if you can locate = either the post or the group that would be great. It is a Yahoo Group: aH-gen http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aH-gen/ The archives are public, search for messages from George Holz. = Apologies to George, whose name I often misspell... as well as my own on = occasion. (the 'holtz in Helmholtz and others in science - is the = problem and my spell checker cannot remember that) He ran a dummy load test which came to the correct figure, I find it = hard to believe that 20 COP times can become underunity, 10 times maybe = he's out by an order of magnitude somehow but I can't see how he can be = that far out so I'd love to see that post.=20 Basically it gets down to using a 5% duty factor (reciprocal of 20, of = course) and multiplying this by both the volts and amps instead of only = volts - (amps is an absolute value in this case) which fools you into = thinking that you are using 20 times less power than you are. The = mistake was picked up by others as well but Naudin never acknowledged = it. It is not that simple, however, and there is the possibility that = there could be OU in the range of COP of 2.5 according to the initial = experiments, which were done correctly. I talked to Moller personally (thanks to VOIP) - and he is in denial, = as well, about Naudin's gaff and his failure to rectify that - or about = the other egregious error in the write-up: mistaking cal for Cal... This = kind of error keeps getting repeated over and over... apparently even by = German PhDs ... not that there's anything wrong with the German higher educational = system.... On 9/1/06, Jones Beene wrote: No, Naudin is not hoaxing - closer to needing a lesson in measuring = P-in. Read George Holtz's post on the 20x power measurement error made by = Naudin. It is on the MAHG forum. ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01C6CD99.F5885200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John = Berry=20
 
As for the MAHG I can't seem to find the group, if you can locate = either=20 the post or the group that would be great.
 
It is a Yahoo Group: = aH-gen
http://groups.yahoo.com/gr= oup/aH-gen/
 
The archives are public, search for = messages from=20 George Holz. Apologies to George, whose name I often misspell... as = well as my=20 own on occasion. (the 'holtz in Helmholtz and others in science - = is the=20 problem and my spell checker cannot remember that)


He ran a dummy load test which came to the correct = figure, I find=20 it hard to believe that 20 COP times can become underunity, 10 times = maybe=20 he's out by an order of magnitude somehow but I can't see how he can = be that=20 far out so I'd love to see that post.
Basically it gets down to using a 5% = duty factor=20 (reciprocal of 20, of course) and multiplying this by both the volts = and amps=20 instead of only volts - (amps is an absolute value in this case) which = fools=20 you into thinking that you are using 20 times less power than you are. = The=20 mistake was picked up by others as well but Naudin never acknowledged=20 it.
 
It is not that simple, however, and = there is the=20 possibility that there could be OU in the range of COP of 2.5 = according to the=20 initial experiments, which were done correctly.
 
I talked to Moller personally (thanks = to VOIP) -=20 and he is in denial, as well, about Naudin's gaff and his failure to = rectify=20 that - or about the other egregious error in the write-up: mistaking = cal for=20 Cal... This kind of error keeps getting repeated over and over... = apparently=20 even by German PhDs <g>
 
... not that there's anything wrong = with the=20 German higher educational system....



On 9/1/06, Jones=20 Beene  wrote:
No, Naudin is not hoaxing - closer = to needing a=20 lesson in measuring P-in.
 
Read George Holtz's post on the 20x = power=20 measurement error made by Naudin. It is on the MAHG=20 = forum.
------=_NextPart_000_0074_01C6CD99.F5885200-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 08:02:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81EhK3u010510; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:43:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81EhHtb010442; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:43:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:43:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=bF6Rw0oabs1Dm9qUDRlFpyxsjH1irlxuYQzhyTPbht3PtLcYhfxIpHS9klsHxezzMjp1SA2OZV22cBoKeQecZ6pwesoY/TJVLG6dwk14fqWW59mDCnHZZe7MxUP1MELQBe90E544pgJ1Jab2PIL+9qNNbDm+GlRDOaCkm2gYV4A= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 02:41:18 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7332_20021992.1157121678136" References: <19319.165.165.26.141.1157100956.squirrel@mail.webmail.co.za> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70583 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_7332_20021992.1157121678136 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Neither you in mine. I was wondering if it was a joke but couldn't be bothered trying to figure of if anything called a heterodyne mixer might just exist, it sound like vaguely plausible if obscure technobabble. And papers have been accepted with just such bogus technobabble of course, what, you mean you don't understand it? On 9/2/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > > On 9/1/06, John Berry wrote: > > Seriously? I mistakenly use Sterling instead of Stirling and you see fit > to > > remark, but Harriet posts some very hard to entertain (even if your open > > minded) new age stuff about Atlantis and crystals somehow relating to a > > magnetic perpetual motion machines and you decide to contribute? > > Hmmm; so, I gather you do not see the humor in my comment, eh? > > Terri > > ------=_Part_7332_20021992.1157121678136 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Neither you in mine.
I was wondering if it was a joke but couldn't be bothered trying to figure of if anything called a heterodyne mixer might just exist, it sound like vaguely plausible if obscure technobabble.

And papers have been accepted with just such bogus technobabble of course, what, you mean you don't understand it?


On 9/2/06, Terry Blanton < hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
On 9/1/06, John Berry < aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
> Seriously? I mistakenly use Sterling instead of Stirling and you see fit to
> remark, but Harriet posts some very hard to entertain (even if your open
> minded) new age stuff about Atlantis and crystals somehow relating to a
> magnetic perpetual motion machines and you decide to contribute?

Hmmm; so, I gather you do not see the humor in my comment, eh?

Terri


------=_Part_7332_20021992.1157121678136-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 08:40:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81FA44I030958; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:16:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81EoGdU015317; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:50:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:50:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=GendtPh2rpeTMnjDU2Z59SQBQfsd9h02Y7z3xdoG/JcxrotiinZsL1Utrwv+C25vxWOXmYuOi6u98ZocUnBqjp6mcZzG8UZrVKs2lfatY8b/VlXlajguNzEHEMtOLoUzsD1F9gVL0zNQTgZGbWDrSYG7mYNNZzx/xMNceLVrL0w= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 02:50:11 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7576_6562622.1157122211891" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70584 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Challenges are popular. Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_7576_6562622.1157122211891 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Don't know if this has been posted before: http://www.relativitychallenge.com SR has been invalidated plenty based on logic and experiment, now the math finally gets what's coming to it. ------=_Part_7576_6562622.1157122211891 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Don't know if this has been posted before:
http://www.relativitychallenge.com

SR has been invalidated plenty based on logic and experiment, now the math finally gets what's coming to it.
------=_Part_7576_6562622.1157122211891-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 09:46:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81GjbFf021165; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:45:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81GjJOl020975; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:45:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:45:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 12:42:03 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Challenges are popular. In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_QjTA7x4lJmguqSAa548iSA)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70585 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_QjTA7x4lJmguqSAa548iSA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Great link. I can appreciate the difference the author makes between complete and incomplete coordinate systems. Harry John Berry wrote: Don't know if this has been posted before: http://www.relativitychallenge.com SR has been invalidated plenty based on logic and experiment, now the math finally gets what's coming to it. --Boundary_(ID_QjTA7x4lJmguqSAa548iSA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: Challenges are popular. Great link.
I can appreciate the difference the author makes between complete
and incomplete coordinate systems.

Harry

John Berry wrote:

Don't know if this has been posted before:
http://www.relativitychallenge.com

SR has been invalidated plenty based on logic and experiment, now the math finally gets what's coming to it.


--Boundary_(ID_QjTA7x4lJmguqSAa548iSA)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 10:42:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81Hg8Nu030849; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:42:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81Hg6j3030824; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:42:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:42:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060901174159244.3BA37C40008A@mwinf3216.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060901174158.00a169c8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:41:58 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: [Vo]: Challenges are popular. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70587 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:50 am 02/09/2006 +1200, you wrote: >Don't know if this has been posted before: >http://www.relativitychallenge.com > Interesting - Looks good to me. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 11:04:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81HXUw1023957; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:33:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81HXQeX023861; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:33:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:33:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 13:30:06 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70586 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: pi Status: RO X-Status: A The mathematically inclined might like to study this. http://members.ispwest.com/r-logan/narrative.html The possibility of "squaring the circle" was proven impossible in the late 1800's. The quest to the square the circle, like the quest for "free energy", is now considered the domain of cranks and quacks...but... you never know... Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 12:13:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81JD9Fd020341; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:13:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81JD7j3020329; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:13:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:13:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 15:09:55 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: pi In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70589 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This guy revisits the ancient problem of squaring the circle and shows that it is possible to square the circle _exactly_ and not just approximately. In the late 19th century pi was shown not to be an _algebraic_ number. He does not challenge that proof. What he has done is invalidate the assumption that the aforementioned proof demonstrates the impossibility of squaring the circle. His does this by showing that pi is a _composite_ and a _constructible_ number. Unlike the proof of Fermat's last theorem, this is a proof that can be followed without the need to know tons of "higher" math. Harry See: http://members.ispwest.com/r-logan/math.html quotes: "Many mathematicians believe that, because the number pi is transcendental and not algebraic, and cannot be expressed in any form other than that of an unending decimal or as the limit of an infinite sequence, it cannot be constructed as a line segment by any method whatsoever. The fact that a structure could exist, providing insight into this matter, is nowhere to be acknowledged." "We are taught in high school geometry class that if the altitude be drawn to the hypotenuse of a right triangle, each leg is the mean proportional between the whole hypotenuse and the adjacent segment. This then is the essence of what I call the pi/phi structure... " From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 12:18:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81JIBOQ023123; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:18:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81JI9mw023079; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:18:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:18:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:18:01 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70590 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Status: RO X-Status: A Suppose you stumbled across the same thing that Steorm did. Apparently those guys aren't aquainted with the history of FE fiascos. (For example, what will they do when the burglaries start, or the anonymous death threats are phoned in against their families?) So, knowing what you know, what would you do differently? (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 11:24:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81IOKBO027424; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:24:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81IOJvc027413; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:24:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:24:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=estYF0nbYXfGNHlTetDTmBX5fZ0ylP0wxaExEVYQxdMLasN/YxLoOvI9znBwrYd+LgEUnsZ0AwvgYLeg4bTfE2RgAzDQ9J9Kf+e5NOzeFKQRoIMsn/TJPTechuVmSyU9GeggPWaDOuCRAc2hVvB/ogxI3IgdcJqMKp1OZo5qXF0= ; Message-ID: <0d4801c6cdf3$d3df94b0$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:24:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70588 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Electrolyzed hydrogen at half the cost X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: Vorts, Will this technique also work for (generating via electrolysis ), hydrogen peroxide? http://www.stifflerscientific.com/ Thanks. Colin From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 13:03:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7UK2u4c002037; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:02:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7UK2sUK002016; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:02:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:02:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=DRDf07GMN58lJ6IIjX+NGE4Gtod5xIxBrJrZBjYI2KVUjb4jICaXsMWbkDUapKTxePZjh5pfL6ZX7cck59gVpaBTOiI1nqIeoYm62BTD4zJQK8ix5A+UVe16nvbwJFBPyGhjvz2sk7+r2PVlWqE1EXJrmsLW4sTIGlp0mhnjBRI= ; Message-ID: <06a101c6cc6f$434158b0$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:02:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70540 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Aspden Effect X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Vorts ! I am looking for an article... :) The Aspden Effect was first mentioned in an item that was published in the February 1995 issue of NEN (New Energy News). Vol 2, #10. pages 1, 2,... I have tried to order a back-copy . . . without success. The "effect" is anomalous angular momentum, some kind of virtual inertia- reported therein by Harold Aspden, and later described here: http://www.energyscience.org.uk/le/Le30/le30.html * ORIGINAL PAPER : http://www.padrak.com/ine/INE8E.html CONTENTS FOR FEBRUARY 1995: Vol. 2, No. 10 DISCOVERY OF "VIRTUAL INERTIA" ................1 THE ASPDEN EFFECT .............................2 If anyone had a subscription at that time, may I please prevail upon you to obtain a copy? Thanks very much :) Best Regards, Colin Quinney crquin at rogers.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 12:43:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81Jgt6M001654; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:42:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81JgsDx001627; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:42:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:42:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:42:49 -0500 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1C195@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Thread-Index: AcbN+4SNfRyFFvPhS7angbLklmW2+wAAb9gg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Sep 2006 19:42:50.0302 (UTC) FILETIME=[CEE32DE0:01C6CDFE] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k81Jgodq001595 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70591 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Suppose you stumbled across the same thing that Steorm did. Apparently those guys aren't aquainted with the history of FE fiascos. (For example, what will they do when the burglaries start, or the anonymous death threats are phoned in against their families?) So, knowing what you know, what would you do differently? First, power my own house and those of my relatives - while pretending that it was a solar installation. Second, I would develop it as an "energy saving" device and install it at local businesses - subject to my maintainence only. They would pay me a part of their utility savings per month. Now, suppose I wanted to give it away free, for the good of the world, as Paul Brown said ( before he died). In this case I would offer simple plans sent by personal mail ( not the internet, which is traceable) and mail the plans from. various locations thruout the US. Basically, follow the same kind of security procedures as terrorists ( !!) except that this is to avoid being killed by oil companies/men in black/ Wackenhut people and to liberate mankind from Fascists and Islamofascists. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 12:53:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81JrWhA006659; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:53:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81JrUr4006631; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:53:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:53:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=dZlCU4Tjt/JenwC/IaQBprxFGmLgMUp/CPXoQ6i189xWNP1QwfaqtN/w6I5xg/Ay; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Willis Jenkin" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Electrolyzed hydrogen at half the cost Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:37:28 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: 5fec4288d6caa01dd780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bcb3a8e0b6cdd81d9eb3769e6a7baea21e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70592 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Colin! If you are asking about the CRE approach (?), the answer is Yes, but!, CRE does have some limitations and those rap around the difference in AC and DC. As most will agree a capacitor is great for passing AC yet is a great storage device for DC. The CRE uses a capacitor in series with the charging (power source) to the electrolyzer and as such you will see the normal charge, discharge curve of the cap. Yet, during the electrolysis process when one stops the current flow by removing the source, the action in the cell does not stop, it will continue for some time (depending on plate type, spacing and if AC or DC is being applied). The original CRE's used a relay and switched about 0.25 Hz, the current versions use MOSFets and run 600 Hz. Solid state CRE's run at 50% +/-20%(depends on electrolyte) and on average show 135-180% over the sane input using filtered DC. The limitation's) is (are) proper selection and matching of cell structure (plate spacing and material), electrolyte, desired gas output and capacitor size and switch frequency. For high production cells it is not uncommon that you could be using 1 Farad or more, yet with split cell construction (where produced gas is combined) you could obtain the same output with say 5 smaller units with each having 1uf cap at a freq of 15,895 Hz. Please don't confuse what is stated as being some magic number tied to any other way out claim or idea, the figure I am stating are from working systems of various configuration which have different construction parms. Backing up some, the AC/DC diff comes into play in that the cell sustains evolution when power is removed, that in effect is the same as a reduced resistance when the pulses are passed through the cell. Should the pulse freq be below the cutoff point of the self sustained evolution (due to ion build up) then production will drop off sharply. Currently the StifflerScientifc lab had a simple yet effective CRE running that gets around the ion cloud around the electrodes. This is seem in a normal cell as the current rises at the start to a max point, then declines to the operational point. The new CRE allows the production to stay at it highest point by switching between a special electrode configuration. CRE makes use of both the AC component and the DC (may will regurgitate over this statement) yet it is proven by many systems on the market today that pulsing does indeed work better (for a number of reasons) than steady state DC (NO Stanley Meyer theory here). Sorry for a simple answer being so long,yet I have worked with many CRE designs and they are worth looking into. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 12:59:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81Jx2gx010125; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:59:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81JwxQ8010092; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:58:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:58:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=oeP3LCykFybpN++KjHl2pQl/5y9tSUxbEMnIs7j8Dv2HVAaWIZLA0kWbJBCT27+0iw8rkWJ7E8KEZEiy9QyFUW+YjSgN95MBi6iUMkedeXxTW7y+XPTuxl4mURUxz03np4+tvDa4Ui478s0P6GzP8CAqOdRDyOA9XJWQxMBKk00= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:58:57 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70593 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A On 9/1/06, William Beaty wrote: > > Suppose you stumbled across the same thing that Steorm did. I'd do exactly what Paul Sprain did. Once you get the patent, publish enough information on the web that anyone with a little engineering experience could replicate the device. Then have a bevy of lawyers ready to sue anyone who tries to sell one. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 13:01:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81K18Da011412; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:01:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81K17Wp011385; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:01:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:01:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 15:57:56 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aether and free energy, etc In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70594 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 9/1/06, thomas malloy wrote: > >> Hum, There is a physics professor Dr. Gates. I listened to him lecture >> on the matter. He believes that String Theory is very much alive. I >> intend to send him an email with Dale Pond's URL and my comment that >> Keely's work reminds me of String Theory. > > There are over 10^400 different string theories and not one is > falsifiable. Let's just say string theory is in the CCU until the LHC > is built and operating in about one year. > > Terry > Is the number of string theories inversely proportional to the size of a pin's head? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 13:14:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81KETxx017955; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:14:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81KEStj017943; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:14:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:14:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:14:27 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70596 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, William Beaty wrote: > So, knowing what you know, what would you do differently? Me, I'd firmly decide that already some better people than I had utterly failed to find a way to make any money off such a discovery. It's just too big. By having a family who could receive death-threats, I couldn't touch it even in order to distribute the information for free. (Also, I know that you can't simply publish the plans, since that's been done many times before, and the few people who actually try building a device will do something wrong, and fail.) So I'd become "Johnny Overunity-seed," and also devote a few years of my life to spreading a memetic virus. First, I'd suddenly vanish. Go underground. Then I'd work my way across the country, going from friend to friend, carrying a working prototype. My goal would be to teach people to build copies that actually work. My second goal would be to convince each person to go and teach several friends to make working copies... and have them try to convince those other people to do the same. Each person would become a teacher who had promised to go out and create more teachers. This would be the equivalent of lighting a fire NOT with a single match, but while strolling along across the world and flinging matches left and right. Here's some lunatic ravings from 1999: Lighting a fire http://amasci.com/freenrg/spred1.txt Also: The prometheus game http://amasci.com/freenrg/prometh.html Rules for FE inventors http://amasci.com/weird/rules1.html (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 13:25:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81KKBIu020845; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:25:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81KC8cF017050; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:12:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:12:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=eYdVHJSkezzXfFPEw5xlAvgY5oIVnoSLFmyBI8XP7kxvE4m6SHY0clWROMf1cQRA; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Willis Jenkin" To: Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:12:10 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: 5fec4288d6caa01dd780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc71475323e71858d05990f27c29df823e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: <8n4MRD.A.UKE.XQJ-EB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70595 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: No disrespect in any way, BUT are not the attorneys the ones making the money here? If you have enough money to take this approach then why bother in the first place. I have been on this earth for 69 years now and have seen business and honesty go from a hand shake or a persons word to having each vowel and syllable written in a contractual document that is of little value in that you will get sued ANYWAY! If I had given up the old belief and way life once was I would not be working today and I would not be driving what I am and my attorney a Lincoln. I would be on vacation and not in the lab while my attorney sends a sub (wet behind the ears) to defend a patent when he/she can't even understand what science is, let alone defend it. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 13:38:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81KcS9F028748; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:38:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81KcRTL028728; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:38:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:38:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ti7/MaMbqaitWyw7sVW0pV32VRQn9bOvP49pHUh+iLnSEdVYwgqtuXWbRgcuCfgr; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Willis Jenkin" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:49:40 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: 5fec4288d6caa01dd780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc68a04c911f56a3891ee59e391b4f9f93350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70597 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Simple.... There are those that believe in the MIB's and those that are MIB's that say they do not exist and the whole idea of suppression is CRAP! You will not make Billions of dollars from any FE device, Period! Once you find a key to the door the rest of the collective of minds will jump in with the control mongers a centralists and take over. You will not be allowed to disrupt a world economy and qusi stability by upsetting the apple cart. It takes little research to find where raids, no knocks, etc., has destroyed many aspiring business for one reason or another. So what do you do? You sell it to the Pink Bunny and run.. But wait? That is immoral, against mankind, just plain selfish, stupid, greedy? Yet it is a fact you can either go to the bank with or to the grave. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 13:59:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81Kx5QP005374; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:59:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81Kx3od005355; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:59:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:59:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:58:56 -0500 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1C218@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Thread-Index: AcbOA04deBaMd2EJQbGuqiNxaFFGEgABRlkg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Sep 2006 20:58:57.0062 (UTC) FILETIME=[70E37460:01C6CE09] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k81KwtDf005313 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70598 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In regard to the spreading of plans, it is true that few people will bother to build anything BUT I am unaware of any real Free energy device out there, in the big wide world that actually works. Almost without exception, such claims are vague as to critical details and disappointing as to demonstrations. If I find a free energy electrical device, I will measure its performance by DC ONLY, no AC. There will be no questions about reactive power! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 14:41:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81Lf375023498; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:41:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81Lf2Fn023474; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:41:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:41:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901171127.04135dc0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:40:50 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1C195@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.c learchannel.com> References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1C195@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70599 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A William Beaty wrote: >Suppose you stumbled across the same thing that Steorm >did. Apparently those guys aren't aquainted with the history of FE >fiascos. (For example, what will they do when the burglaries start, >or the anonymous death threats are phoned in against their families?) These things happened to Stan Pons and a few others, but I think such harassment is exceedingly rare, and nothing to worry about. As far as I know, all of the harassment against cold fusion researchers has come from other cold fusion researchers, and from people who do not believe the effect exists. I have never heard of anyone who is afraid it might be real and who is trying to stop it. Perhaps that is a secret motivation but I very much doubt it. Leading opponents at places like the Scientific American, Nature, Time magazine and elsewhere have repeatedly asserted that they are dead certain it is pathological nonsense, fraud, lunacy, etc. I am sure they are telling the truth about their own feelings. They also say they have read no papers about cold fusion, and I am sure that is true too. The people at Hydrodynamics -- along with several experts and I -- are convinced that their device produces anomalous excess heat. None of us has any reason to doubt that based on extensive experiments. However, the company gave up trying to convince people of that fact many years ago, because it was more trouble than it is worth. Since the excess heat is only 10% ~ 15% it has no financial significance or practical use. As far as I know, no one ever threatened them or the people who are working on similar devices 30 years ago. The world ignores such claims. If I found something like this, I would do exactly what I have done all along. I would publish as much detailed information about it as I can lay hands on at LENR-CANR.org, and I would encourage others to replicate. Whether this will ever have a positive effect or not I cannot say, but it seems like the most practical plan for people who have no money and no access to mainstream media. I have been doing this for some time, and hundreds of thousands of people have downloaded the papers, including many at national laboratories, universities, oil companies and other corporations. Apparently, many people take cold fusion seriously enough to read these papers. (I doubt anyone reads them for fun.) I have never once been threatened or harassed by anyone other than a few cold fusion researchers. These few are childish, ill tempered, ill mannered, and undoubtedly they are their Own Worst Enemies. They have made more trouble for me, and for themselves, than the folks at the APS and the Scientific American. The Steorm plans seem excessively complicated and time-consuming to me. Assuming they have something real and it can be demonstrated on a small scale who, I cannot imagine why they are going to all this trouble. If they could make a dozen prototypes and give four or five to me, or to Bill Beaty for that matter, we could probably convince the whole world in a few months. The Steorm people, in common with many cold fusion researchers, seem to be very anxious to convince mainstream skeptics that their claims are real. They are determined to publish papers in leading journals such as Nature, which is (literally) the last place on earth that will accept these claims. I have never understood why these researchers want to do this. There are millions of friendly people out there who are convinced cold fusion is real, and you only want to know more about it. Many of these people are probably influential and if the cold fusion researchers would only reach out to them they could probably get very substantial financial and moral support. Yet instead of reaching out to these potential friends, many cold fusion researchers concentrate obsessively on trying to convince their enemies! I find their behavior incomprehensible. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 15:03:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81M3O0r001167; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:03:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81M3MCJ001150; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:03:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:03:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901174733.040a6bd8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:03:01 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70600 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Willis Jenkin wrote: >There are those that believe in the MIB's and those that are MIB's that say >they do not exist and the whole idea of suppression is CRAP! Cold fusion is the only 100% certified definitely-does-exists anomalous form of energy. I am dead center in the cold fusion business. So I am pretty sure I would have heard from these MIB by now, or someone such as Fleischmann, Storms or Mizuno would have heard from them. So far, the only people who have attacked us are other cold fusion researchers, and the people at Scientific American who have never read a paper and know nothing about the claims. >You will not make Billions of dollars from any FE device, Period! Of course you could. It would be hard to avoid making billions. >You will not be allowed to disrupt a world economy and qusi stability by >upsetting the apple cart. That's silly. Starting in 1979, Bill Gates and a handful of scruffy microcomputer designers upset the apple cart and nearly put IBM out of business. Starting in 1908, Henry Ford knocked the US passenger railroads on to the ropes, stealing a large part of their business in 10 or 20 years. They were the largest, most powerful, most ruthless corporations in the world. Around 1960 companies like Toyota and Honda brought Japanese prototype cars to the US and could barely drive them across the country, they were so badly made and so ill-equipped for the US market. Now, Ford and GM are teetering on the verge of oblivion, and if they survive another 10 years it will be because Toyota decides it would be politically advantageous to sell them advanced automotive technology, rather than simply pushing them out of business. Small businesses have put big ones out of business over and over again throughout the history of commerce. Believe me, I have been watching over-unity inventors for many years. Some I know are real, such as a cold fusion people and the ones at Hydrodynamics. The rest are probably fooling themselves. In every case, most of their troubles have been and continue to be caused by themselves. I do not have the slightest doubt these people are their own worst enemies, and if they had only acted with a modicum of common sense and business acumen 12 years ago, they would be as rich as Bill Gates is. The academic scientists act this way because they appear to be really and truly uninterested in money. They honestly think the only way to succeed is to publish in Nature. (Many of them oppose the idea of publishing papers on the Internet.) The others who act really squirrely are probably either crazy or scam artists. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 15:10:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81MAHMH004584; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:10:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81MAFqt004565; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:10:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:10:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200609012210.k81MAEj3029163@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:10:13 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_8602517cea78cbe3a81d3685f538c9c7" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70601 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=_8602517cea78cbe3a81d3685f538c9c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jed sez: ... > The Steorm people, in common with many cold fusion > researchers, seem to be very anxious to convince > mainstream skeptics that their claims are real. > They are determined to publish papers in leading > journals such as Nature, which is (literally) the last > place on earth that will accept these claims. I have > never understood why these researchers want to do this. > There are millions of friendly people out there who > are convinced cold fusion is real, and you only want to > know more about it. Many of these people are probably > influential and if the cold fusion researchers would > only reach out to them they could probably get very > substantial financial and moral support. Yet instead > of reaching out to these potential friends, many cold > fusion researchers concentrate obsessively on trying > to convince their enemies! I find their behavior > incomprehensible. > > - Jed > Jed, on a slightly lighter note, I one may find the underlying reasons for such incomprehensible behavior as portrayed quite brilliantly (and most humorously) by John Carradine, who played Dr. Bernardo, the mad sex research scientist in Woody Allen's classic 1972 Fantasy Film "Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex, * But Were Afraid to Ask." See: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068555/ In one of the mini skits Dr. Bernardo confronts Woody with a personal ultimatum: "They all thought I was mad! Well I'll show them! I'll show them all!" Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_8602517cea78cbe3a81d3685f538c9c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed sez:

...

> The Steorm people, in common with many cold fusion
> researchers, seem to be very anxious to convince
> mainstream skeptics that their claims are real.
> They are determined to publish papers in leading
> journals such as Nature, which is (literally) the last
> place on earth that will accept these claims. I have
> never understood why these researchers want to do this.
> There are millions of friendly people out there who
> are convinced cold fusion is real, and you only want to
> know more about it. Many of these people are probably
> influential and if the cold fusion researchers would
> only reach out to them they could probably get very
> substantial financial and moral support. Yet instead
> of reaching out to these potential friends, many cold
> fusion researchers concentrate obsessively on trying
> to convince their enemies! I find their behavior
> incomprehensible.
>
> - Jed
>

Jed, on a slightly lighter note, I one may find the underlying reasons for = such incomprehensible behavior as portrayed quite brilliantly (and most hum= orously) by John Carradine, who played Dr. Bernardo, the mad sex research s= cientist in Woody Allen's classic 1972 Fantasy Film "Everything You Wanted = to Know About Sex, * But Were Afraid to Ask."

See: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068555/

In one of the mini skits Dr. Bernardo confronts Woody with a personal ultim= atum:

"They all thought I was mad! Well I'll show them! I'll show them all!"


Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_8602517cea78cbe3a81d3685f538c9c7-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 15:18:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81MIP9M008244; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:18:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81MIOER008224; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:18:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:18:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:17:17 -0500 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1C254@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Thread-Index: AcbOEoT8WefWQFhxSS+YXtrk7usqSgAAFS0g From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Sep 2006 22:17:18.0399 (UTC) FILETIME=[631A8CF0:01C6CE14] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k81MILUu008193 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70602 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The problem with the examples you cite are that the industries that were overcome DID NOT see it coming- and so did not suppress the competition accordingly. IBM thought the future lay in hardware and Bill Gates knew differently. US car companies did not foresee the decades long threat from Japan. In the case of free energy, a dramatic discovery could get an inventor killed, if it gets perceived as too precipitous. With only a little excess energy reported from Cold Fusion, it isn't taken seriously (yet). When Ralph Nader emerged as a sudden threat, GM sent out "investigators" against him. Back during the Carter Adminstration, a corporate head made A cryptic remark about "controls" on solar energy, if it eliminated fossil fuel dramatically. If anyone discovers anything dramatically better, DOWNPLAY IT. Keep it to yourself, at least at first - and be cautious. If they kill tens of thousands In the Middle East over oil, then a few quiet domestic "accidents" are acceptable. Get a copy of "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and consider its contents. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 15:31:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81MVJpu014002; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:31:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81MVIuw013981; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:31:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:31:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=esxiN+M3CfAyP08H4etEuZaKowZ/R13ZgxKgoNPf316iFF5u37pWCN0lMClOtGejSuDRs2lxg1gMXjXe4Peca9xTxQ9oWvmwc65SReEob0fs2sHCSz0l0TEEr9mlRsxraxECEUraLctOfMf3o4oHgTsGfDY4Pbo87hJIdERW7FU= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 10:31:18 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901171127.04135dc0@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_15589_26043429.1157149878474" References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1C195@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060901171127.04135dc0@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70603 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_15589_26043429.1157149878474 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Knowing what Steorn apparently know I would do pretty much what Steorn has done. Knowing what I know first I would pick friends and tell them everything, have them work with me in the workshop to replicate everything, they would know everything I would know. After having about 20 such people trained I would build as many as I possibly could and make a list of people in the alternative energy field to send devices to, each with the instruction to test, verify and hopefully replicate and then to pass it another scientist. I would also give a bunch of devices to everyday people to use, and perhaps one or two to (semi?) famous people. I would then try and get this on the evening news somehow with a similtanious launch on the web, full details including a video of me building the device from scratch in front of their eyes, full instructions to replicate. And have everyone with the device also make videos and load them on youtube. If I was a millionaire I would covertly get a few tens of thousand made and give them away freely to nearby public along with ensuring I was ready to sell a bunch more. (as well as doing a number of the things listed above) I would also buy some advertising time on TV to ensure it gets on TV. Now if only the energy cartel would be so good as to give us the same advanced warning... On 9/2/06, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > William Beaty wrote: > > >Suppose you stumbled across the same thing that Steorm > >did. Apparently those guys aren't aquainted with the history of FE > >fiascos. (For example, what will they do when the burglaries start, > >or the anonymous death threats are phoned in against their families?) > > These things happened to Stan Pons and a few others, but I think such > harassment is exceedingly rare, and nothing to worry about. As far as > I know, all of the harassment against cold fusion researchers has > come from other cold fusion researchers, and from people who do not > believe the effect exists. I have never heard of anyone who is afraid > it might be real and who is trying to stop it. Perhaps that is a > secret motivation but I very much doubt it. Leading opponents at > places like the Scientific American, Nature, Time magazine and > elsewhere have repeatedly asserted that they are dead certain it is > pathological nonsense, fraud, lunacy, etc. I am sure they are telling > the truth about their own feelings. They also say they have read no > papers about cold fusion, and I am sure that is true too. > > The people at Hydrodynamics -- along with several experts and I -- > are convinced that their device produces anomalous excess heat. None > of us has any reason to doubt that based on extensive experiments. > However, the company gave up trying to convince people of that fact > many years ago, because it was more trouble than it is worth. Since > the excess heat is only 10% ~ 15% it has no financial significance or > practical use. As far as I know, no one ever threatened them or the > people who are working on similar devices 30 years ago. The world > ignores such claims. > > If I found something like this, I would do exactly what I have done > all along. I would publish as much detailed information about it as I > can lay hands on at LENR-CANR.org, and I would encourage others to > replicate. Whether this will ever have a positive effect or not I > cannot say, but it seems like the most practical plan for people who > have no money and no access to mainstream media. > > I have been doing this for some time, and hundreds of thousands of > people have downloaded the papers, including many at national > laboratories, universities, oil companies and other corporations. > Apparently, many people take cold fusion seriously enough to read > these papers. (I doubt anyone reads them for fun.) I have never once > been threatened or harassed by anyone other than a few cold fusion > researchers. These few are childish, ill tempered, ill mannered, and > undoubtedly they are their Own Worst Enemies. They have made more > trouble for me, and for themselves, than the folks at the APS and the > Scientific American. > > > The Steorm plans seem excessively complicated and time-consuming to > me. Assuming they have something real and it can be demonstrated on a > small scale who, I cannot imagine why they are going to all this > trouble. If they could make a dozen prototypes and give four or five > to me, or to Bill Beaty for that matter, we could probably convince > the whole world in a few months. > > The Steorm people, in common with many cold fusion researchers, seem > to be very anxious to convince mainstream skeptics that their claims > are real. They are determined to publish papers in leading journals > such as Nature, which is (literally) the last place on earth that > will accept these claims. I have never understood why these > researchers want to do this. There are millions of friendly people > out there who are convinced cold fusion is real, and you only want to > know more about it. Many of these people are probably influential and > if the cold fusion researchers would only reach out to them they > could probably get very substantial financial and moral support. Yet > instead of reaching out to these potential friends, many cold fusion > researchers concentrate obsessively on trying to convince their > enemies! I find their behavior incomprehensible. > > - Jed > > > ------=_Part_15589_26043429.1157149878474 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Knowing what Steorn apparently know I would do pretty much what Steorn has done.

Knowing what I know first I would pick friends and tell them everything, have them work with me in the workshop to replicate everything, they would know everything I would know.

After having about 20 such people trained I would build as many as I possibly could and make a list of people in the alternative energy field to send devices to, each with the instruction to test, verify and hopefully replicate and then to pass it another scientist.

I would also give a bunch of devices to everyday people to use, and perhaps one or two to (semi?) famous people.

I would then try and get this on the evening news somehow with a similtanious launch on the web, full details including a video of me building the device from scratch in front of their eyes, full instructions to replicate.

And have everyone with the device also make videos and load them on youtube.

If I was a millionaire I would covertly get a few tens of thousand made and give them away freely to nearby public along with ensuring I was ready to sell a bunch more. (as well as doing a number of the things listed above)

I would also buy some advertising time on TV to ensure it gets on TV.

Now if only the energy cartel would be so good as to give us the same advanced warning...


On 9/2/06, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
William Beaty wrote:

>Suppose you stumbled across the same thing that Steorm
>did.  Apparently those guys aren't aquainted with the history of FE
>fiascos.  (For example, what will they do when the burglaries start,
>or the anonymous death threats are phoned in against their families?)

These things happened to Stan Pons and a few others, but I think such
harassment is exceedingly rare, and nothing to worry about. As far as
I know, all of the harassment against cold fusion researchers has
come from other cold fusion researchers, and from people who do not
believe the effect exists. I have never heard of anyone who is afraid
it might be real and who is trying to stop it. Perhaps that is a
secret motivation but I very much doubt it. Leading opponents at
places like the Scientific American, Nature, Time magazine and
elsewhere have repeatedly asserted that they are dead certain it is
pathological nonsense, fraud, lunacy, etc. I am sure they are telling
the truth about their own feelings. They also say they have read no
papers about cold fusion, and I am sure that is true too.

The people at Hydrodynamics -- along with several experts and I --
are convinced that their device produces anomalous excess heat. None
of us has any reason to doubt that based on extensive experiments.
However, the company gave up trying to convince people of that fact
many years ago, because it was more trouble than it is worth. Since
the excess heat is only 10% ~ 15% it has no financial significance or
practical use. As far as I know, no one ever threatened them or the
people who are working on similar devices 30 years ago. The world
ignores such claims.

If I found something like this, I would do exactly what I have done
all along. I would publish as much detailed information about it as I
can lay hands on at LENR-CANR.org, and I would encourage others to
replicate. Whether this will ever have a positive effect or not I
cannot say, but it seems like the most practical plan for people who
have no money and no access to mainstream media.

I have been doing this for some time, and hundreds of thousands of
people have downloaded the papers, including many at national
laboratories, universities, oil companies and other corporations.
Apparently, many people take cold fusion seriously enough to read
these papers. (I doubt anyone reads them for fun.) I have never once
been threatened or harassed by anyone other than a few cold fusion
researchers. These few are childish, ill tempered, ill mannered, and
undoubtedly they are their Own Worst Enemies. They have made more
trouble for me, and for themselves, than the folks at the APS and the
Scientific American.


The Steorm plans seem excessively complicated and time-consuming to
me. Assuming they have something real and it can be demonstrated on a
small scale who, I cannot imagine why they are going to all this
trouble. If they could make a dozen prototypes and give four or five
to me, or to Bill Beaty for that matter, we could probably convince
the whole world in a few months.

The Steorm people, in common with many cold fusion researchers, seem
to be very anxious to convince mainstream skeptics that their claims
are real. They are determined to publish papers in leading journals
such as Nature, which is (literally) the last place on earth that
will accept these claims. I have never understood why these
researchers want to do this. There are millions of friendly people
out there who are convinced cold fusion is real, and you only want to
know more about it. Many of these people are probably influential and
if the cold fusion researchers would only reach out to them they
could probably get very substantial financial and moral support. Yet
instead of reaching out to these potential friends, many cold fusion
researchers concentrate obsessively on trying to convince their
enemies! I find their behavior incomprehensible.

- Jed



------=_Part_15589_26043429.1157149878474-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 16:16:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81NGWOH031776; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:16:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81NGUiu031763; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:16:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:16:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 19:13:16 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k81NGP8Y031712 Resent-Message-ID: <8zOz-B.A.KwH.O9L-EB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70604 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Schopenhauer on the three stages of truth: First, ridicule; Second, vigorous opposition; Third, acceptance as self-evident. Swami Vivekananda: Each work has to pass through these stages‹ridicule, opposition, and then acceptance. Those who think ahead of their time are sure to be misunderstood. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 16:20:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81NKIv4001299; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:20:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81NKHDF001281; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:20:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:20:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a301c6ce1d$2d1a7580$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1C254@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:20:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70605 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Zell wrote:- <> There is going to be a sequel to this book out soon. The foreword/first chapter is gong to be written by John Christensen who used to be the assistant economic adviser to Jersey (where I live). I have had very interesting conversations with him about economics, environmentalism, the economic policies of the US and the global "finance industry" etc. It's true that if the "powers that be" became aware that CF/FE was a real threat to them, action would be taken. They may even believe that it would be in the best interests of the world to prevent this technology, because it would be so destabilising. However, the nature of CF and the Internet is such that knowledge of an easily replicable demonstration would be impossible to stop from spreading. One write up on LENR-CANR, Naudin's site etc plus a few judicious emails to various groups such as Vortex-L, to tell people where the details are, and the whole can of worms would boil over (love mixing metaphors!). In a world in which a fat kid lip synching the Numa Numa song gets a million hits in a week, secrets like this cannot stay secret. Any MIB's may believe they would be able to stop it but they wouldn't know what had hit them. They would be as deluded as Bush and co are is if they think the world supports their values and beliefs... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 16:23:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81NNfUG004530; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:23:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k81NNefJ004515; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:23:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:23:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ZPbSmrM+S/NMXf2pXvSCJNJCtjsgPIlgzN1TgLqt8McLwR+kIRjgVlmgGn8Az+xE; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Willis Jenkin" To: Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:23:43 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: 5fec4288d6caa01dd780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bceea5a32eb3f6c19939e307299d57cf26350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70606 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I to this day remember how I revolted against my German born grandfather that told me, "Son I have been there, I have made the mistakes, maybe not all, but enough to help you get a good footing in life with little danger and a possible good ending". God! how I hated hearing that. I was young and did deeply believe that youth had the answers and the old ways were of little meaning in my day and age. So wrong was I. Comparing Gates to the energy industry is folly at best, it has no meaning, like is an Apple an Orange? I no longer let myself tangle in long debates, not that much has changed over the last 150 years. Okay, great technology, great standard of living, great medical care and so on, BUT! gentleman my mind sees that a fully 90% of what we have today came from the 1800's, we only refined the ideas and build the means to implement what was then conceived. Today's discoveries pale in respect to the foundation on which we have built. Hard to take?, maybe for some, but those with a open view will agree, at least in mind yet not in print. What OU (hate this acronym) or FE (hate this to) device is indeed out there that in any way can even hope to put the smallest of dents in the energy industry as it exist today? Really, what? MIB's or no MIB's, you are NOT going to be allowed to introduce ANY new source of energy to replace the current, (unless you allow for another 100 years for its phase in). PLEASE see the basics, "NEW 1sq meter device produces 100kWhr with no fuel required". So what do we do with the energy service industry?, the production, support and scientific staff now employed by the existing infrastructure? Do we all chip in and put them on ware fare? I am going far to far here, but a little thought on the chain reaction says it will not happen even if it should. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 20:29:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k823TZcA028940; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 20:29:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k823TXb4028923; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 20:29:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 20:29:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=uISuW/5O4NzyjYtfL3F+jArtXQKy/Xvh5cYNRSdORObUqBqFF5HfyMmyV8bHYksK; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <17751883.1157167772074.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:29:31 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191ce98fd36c66d38177cfc4ee142521f6fa790fad917fc14d6b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.28 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k823TVw4028902 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70609 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Zell, Chris wrote: > The problem with the examples you cite are that the industries that >were overcome DID NOT see it coming- and so did not suppress the >competition accordingly. Incorrect. In the examples I gave, everyone saw it coming, but they underestimated the extent of the changes. In the case of CF and free energy, ALL establishment scientists and industry leaders see nothing coming, because they have read nothing and they are 100% certain it is physically impossible, like a person jumping from the earth to the moon. >IBM thought the future lay in hardware and Bill Gates knew differently. IBM made the most successful personal computer in history, and they tried to make a PC operating system but failed. They underestimated Gates, Dell and the others. >US car companies did not foresee the decades long threat from Japan. They did not foresee they would lose. Everyone could see that VW and the Japanese were coming into the U.S. market. >In the case of free energy, a dramatic discovery could get an inventor >killed . . . I doubt it, but that can easily be prevented, by going 100% public and distributing thousands of copies of the plans via the Internet. There is no point to killing someone when there is no secret because thousands of people know about it. On the contrary, killing the inventor will only excite interest in the field. This happened when Gene was killed, even though his murder had nothing to do with MIB. > With only a little >excess energy reported >from Cold Fusion, it isn't taken seriously (yet). It will not be taken seriously until it is far too late to prevent it from spreading to ten-thousand labs. As I said, the way things stand now, there is no chance an oil company exec or high official will become alarmed because they are all perfectly certain that CF is pathological nonsense. It has never crossed their minds that they might be wrong. Believe me, I have talked to these people, including Huizenga, Taubes, Park, and many others. They are as sure that CF and all other OU claims are physically impossible as I am certain that Newton's laws are correct (to the first approximation anyway), or -- to take a more controversial example -- as certain as I am that Darwinian evolution occured. I could no more convince them to look seriously at a paper by Storms, McKubre or Iwamura than a Creationist could convince me to look seriously at religion-based arguments. Such things are simply off the radar screen. Not worth a glance. Not logical arguments in any sense. You might as well try to convince me that 2 + 2 = 5. (Neo-Lamarkian theories are interesting and plausible, or at least scientific and refutable, but I think they are wrong.) I am sure that is how opponents all feel toward cold fusion. That is what they say, and I have no reason to doubt it. >When Ralph Nader emerged as a sudden threat, GM sent out "investigators" >against him. He was not making a technical claim that every scientist considers preposterous. He was making claims about cars that all of the auto manufacturers knew to be correct. That situation couldn't be more different. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 1 22:48:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k825mMwA028272; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 22:48:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k825mKjZ028249; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 22:48:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 22:48:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 12:53:56 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 2 Sep 2006 02:53:56 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k825mH33028209 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70610 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Willis Jenkin's message of Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:23:43 -0700: Hi, [snip] >So what do we do with the energy service industry?, the >production, support and scientific staff now employed by the existing >infrastructure? Do we all chip in and put them on ware fare? > >I am going far to far here, but a little thought on the chain reaction says >it will not happen even if it should. > Production of new devices, conversion of existing ones, total recycling of all waste along with a total redesign and rebuilding of all industries and restoration of nature are going to create far more jobs than those eliminated. Not to mention those flowing forward from the opening up of the Solar system. Furthermore, with FE, all rocks automatically become potential sources of raw materials. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 2 10:43:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k82HhXHk003754; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 10:43:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k82HhVEL003742; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 10:43:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 10:43:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <392.9f3b898.322b1cbd@aol.com> Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 13:43:25 EDT To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1157219005" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5324 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <1usBRC.A.W6.DLc-EB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70611 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1157219005 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't believe that the Steorm device is over unity. I have seen many other magnetic device come and go, the Smoot, the Takahasi motor, the Galteck motor, the unipolar generator, and the Newman motor. I have had enough of it. This approach has not and will not work. I have seen other technologies that do produce anomalous energy. The CETI cell, Storms cell, and Miley's cell. The technologies that work involve the stimulation of 50 nm particles with laser light or thermal energy. Perhaps in heavy water. These device produce an interaction involving the strong nuclear, weak nuclear, and gravitomagnetic fields. Under ordinary conditions only the electromagnetic field can be controlled. There is one condition in which all of the natural forces interact strongly. That condition is during a quantum transition. An understanding of the path of the quantum transition is the only way to over unity. The stimulation of a 50 nm particle with light produces a macroscopic (50nm) bulk transitional event. I have discovered that stationary quantum events are described by Planck's constant. With a little math we can rearrange terms and describe quantum events in terms of the constant 1.094 megahertz-meters. This constant describes transitional quantum events. It can be applied to nuclear, electronic, photonic, and macroscopic cold fusion events. Until we understand this and focus our efforts in this one direction we will not achieve anything. My page of the subject is again. _http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html_ (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html) D2fusion has a shot at producing an over unity device. they are working in the 50nm domain, with heavy water, and with laser stimulation. I hope they make it before they run out of money. I can't believe that the University of Ohio and this group does not appreciate the full implications of University of Ohio's work. _http://www.physorg.com/news63003999.html_ (http://www.physorg.com/news63003999.html) Frank Znidarsic -------------------------------1157219005 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't believe that the Steorm device is over unity.  I have seen= =20 many other magnetic device come and go, the Smoot, the Takahasi motor, the=20 Galteck motor, the unipolar generator, and the Newman motor.  I have ha= d=20 enough of it.
 
This approach has not and will not work.  I have seen other=20 technologies that do produce anomalous energy.  The CETI cell, Storms c= ell,=20 and Miley's cell.
 
 
The technologies that work involve the stimulation of 50 nm particles w= ith=20 laser light or thermal energy.  Perhaps in heavy water.  These dev= ice=20 produce an interaction involving the strong nuclear, weak nuclear, and=20 gravitomagnetic fields. 
 
 
Under ordinary conditions only the electromagnetic field can be=20 controlled.  There is one condition in which all of the natural forces=20 interact strongly. That condition is during a quantum transition. = An=20 understanding of the path of the quantum transition is the only way to over=20 unity.  The stimulation of a 50 nm particle with light produces a=20 macroscopic (50nm) bulk transitional event.  I have discovered that=20 stationary quantum events are described by Planck's constant.  With a=20 little math we can rearrange terms and describe quantum events in terms of t= he=20 constant 1.094 megahertz-meters.  This constant describes transitional=20 quantum events.  It can be applied to nuclear, electronic, photonic, an= d=20 macroscopic cold fusion events.  Until we understand this and focus our= =20 efforts in this one direction we will not achieve anything.
 
 
My page of the subject is again.
 
http://www.angelfire= .com/scifi2/zpt/index.html
 
D2fusion has a shot at producing an over unity device. they are working= in=20 the 50nm domain, with heavy water,  and with laser stimulation.
I hope they make it before they run out of money.
 
I can't believe that the University of Ohio and this group does not=20 appreciate the full implications of University of Ohio's work.
 
http://www.physorg.com/new= s63003999.html
 
Frank Znidarsic
 -------------------------------1157219005-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 2 13:31:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k82KVDjO016266; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 13:31:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k82KVB4j016252; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 13:31:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 13:31:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 13:31:11 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? In-Reply-To: <17751883.1157167772074.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: References: <17751883.1157167772074.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70612 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >In the case of free energy, a dramatic discovery could get an inventor > >killed . . . > > I doubt it, but that can easily be prevented, by going 100% public and > distributing thousands of copies of the plans via the Internet. It might be simple, I don't think it's "easy." What past inventors have given away their discoveries in such a way? (I mean "inventors," not "scientists.") First, wouldn't the inventor have to know that trade secrets are almost certainly harmful in this case? If the inventor only thought that they MIGHT be harmful, then the inventor probably wouldn't want to take a chance by releasing the central details of their discovery. Opposite example: Even though the SMOT looks now like hoax/mistake/ craziness, Greg Watson stands out as one of the only OU inventors who instantly went public rather than instantly opting for secrecy. It's too bad that this is so rare. (Was Patterson another example? Or was he already more scientist than inventor?) Regarding 100% release, Steorm obviously doesn't believe any such thing. Those guys were even refusing to answer questions about how many prototypes they'd built, or how much wattage they measured!!! And Steorm is behaving the same as most others have behaved: they look just like a scam, while probably they're just being their own worst enemy. And that tells me that at least for a typical inventor, going 100% public is very very hard indeed. If there really are MIBs whose job it is to suppress these discoveries, then they certainly have an easy job. A typical inventor who stumbles into success will immediately decide to NOT publish the details on LENR/CANR. Then, as with the Clem device, the Hendershot device, Kawai, Sweet, etc., the MIBs just have to phone up the inventor and make a death threat against their family. Or if the inventor decides to release the secret by later patenting, why WOULDN'T their government slap a secrecy order on such a device, a device which is both valuable and also a major issue of national security? Mabye Steorm isn't a scam, and perhaps they'll be successful. But to me it looks like they've taken their first big step and put their foot right in the huge stinking cowpie that the rest of the FE community has been discussing for years. Doomed to repeat history through ignorance (perhaps even willful ignorance.) (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 2 13:49:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k82KnLq3024185; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 13:49:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k82KnJ8G024169; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 13:49:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 13:49:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 13:49:19 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70613 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Willis Jenkin wrote: > What OU (hate this acronym) or FE (hate this to) device is indeed out there > that in any way can even hope to put the smallest of dents in the energy > industry as it exist today? What successful devices are out there? If there really are any simple and working devices, then their inventors are keeping them secret. Or perhaps there are some successful devices buried in the huge number of fake "OU device plans" on various websites and patent archives. In other words, the devices aren't outthere. There has NEVER been a simple successful OU device "out there," one which a kid can build for class, one which can run a flashlight bulb or keep your tea warm. If you disagree, then let's see the device that you've built. We can post the plans on lenr-canr.org Heh. Or are you keeping something secret? :) > Really, what? MIB's or no MIB's, you are NOT > going to be allowed to introduce ANY new source of energy to replace the > current, (unless you allow for another 100 years for its phase in). It's not "allow replacement" that's the issue. If you know of a working device, everyone on vortex-L can try building a copy. I can put the plans on scienceclub.org, or we can have S. Q. Field post it on scitoys.com as a project for kids. He already has a crude copper-oxide solar cell there, but no "OU energy device." We need a crude magnet-motor science project which actually works, and which kids can build for themselves. > I am going far to far here, but a little thought on the chain reaction says > it will not happen even if it should. If you seriously think that ANY free-energy device is already out there and anyone can build one to demonstrate that it's real... which one is it? Have you made a successful Coler device or similar? Is it sitting in your garage, getting hot and putting out RF fields? If not, then do you know of someone else? It has to be someone who isn't trying to "get rich by keeping their device a secret." (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 2 14:50:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k82LoBg4018587; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 14:50:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k82Lo3sh018483; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 14:50:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 14:50:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 14:20:27 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70614 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Terry Blanton wrote: > I'd do exactly what Paul Sprain did. Sprain? I haven't heard of him. You mean that he's closed the loop? The websites say that he has yet another magnet motor, and that he *measured* the energy coming out and found that it's more than the electrical pulses sent in by the power supply. How is this different than SMOT, or different than all the other magnet motors, or even all the other measured OU claims? They might or might not be mistakes. They certainly can't run a flashlight bulb or heat a cup of tea. > Once you get the patent, publish > enough information on the web that anyone with a little engineering > experience could replicate the device. Then have a bevy of lawyers > ready to sue anyone who tries to sell one. Why would anyone sell such a thing? Unless the loop is closed and it's running in stand-alone mode, not even hobbyists would buy one. And if anyone managed to close the loop, that would be a major breakthrough on its own. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 2 15:24:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k82MOmWF009109; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 15:24:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k82MOkcs009093; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 15:24:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 15:24:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 15:24:45 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901171127.04135dc0@mindspring.com> Message-ID: References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1C195@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060901171127.04135dc0@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70615 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FE, harassment, death threats Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Jed Rothwell wrote: > William Beaty wrote: > >Suppose you stumbled across the same thing that Steorm > >did. Apparently those guys aren't aquainted with the history of FE > >fiascos. (For example, what will they do when the burglaries start, > >or the anonymous death threats are phoned in against their families?) > > These things happened to Stan Pons and a few others, but I think such > harassment is exceedingly rare, and nothing to worry about. Violence and threats only seem to happen to inventors who make claims of simple, extremely high-output devices, yet keep everything secret. I don't know if Steorm qualifies, but CF and Hydrodynamics don't. Steorn mentions that their device is non-electrical, and that they measure their output by having it lift a weight. There are horror stories about: - Moray device (prototypes smashed, wounded in gun battle with burglars) - Hendershot device (death threats, eventually paid to stop work) http://www.borderlands.com/freeenergy.htm - Clem device (beaten up, death threats against family) http://www.keelynet.com/energy/clem3.htm - Sweet device (death threats) http://amasci.com/freenrg/sweetvta.html - Bedini (beaten up) - Roschin/Godin wheel (prototype smashed) http://www.rexresearch.com/roschin/roschin.htm - Hutchison (lab destroyed, recent harassment) - Kawai motor (Yakuza takeover) http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/012202a.htm - Paul Brown (longterm harassment, bomb found in car) http://www.padrak.com/ine/INE17.html So is this exceedingly rare? Compared to what? Or do you assume that these were mostly hoaxers who were lying about being threatened? For example, Dennis Lee constantly complains about being suppressed. Greg Watson says he dropped the RMOG work after his family was threatened. Searle says he was jailed for power theft because he used his device to power his home. But these appear to be hoaxes or scams. Me, I'm not convinced that any organized conspiracy exists. But I think the death threats do, and the violence does. I think it's wise to take the violence seriously, while at the same time being very open-minded about whether any vast suppression conspiracy being real, versus being paranoid-delusional. It doesn't take a vast conspiracy to make a threatening phone call late at night. > I have never once been threatened or harassed by anyone other than a few > cold fusion researchers. But you aren't dealing with claims about building a device which ends the need for batteries, and conceivably could be scaled up to run a car without fuel, heat a home, etc. > The Steorm plans seem excessively complicated and time-consuming to > me. Assuming they have something real and it can be demonstrated on a > small scale who, I cannot imagine why they are going to all this > trouble. If they could make a dozen prototypes and give four or five > to me, or to Bill Beaty for that matter, we could probably convince > the whole world in a few months. But then (gasp) just ANYBODY could build one! This seems to be the worst nightmare for many inventors. How horrible if the inventor became, say, the creator of the AC power grid, but most people had never heard their name. There seems to be a "Free Energy Curse" which destroys people. But it's no conspiracy, instead it's caused by inventors' own ego, greed, and need for control. They don't want to plant a seed that creates a forest, instead they want to build a forest all by themselves by hand, so they can take all the credit for its existence. The Prometheus Game http://amasci.com/freenrg/prometh.html (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 2 16:12:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k82NCcib032665; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 16:12:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k82NCbim032651; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 16:12:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 16:12:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=rp9awP/xvwDLnjMnbNDJ26XV/qYohR9CwKad7sk9dVyl4GQcSSJDYiyNE2a7abbu; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "W Jenkin" To: Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 18:15:03 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: 5fec4288d6caa01dd780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bccbca6071b62b4c3bb6d0a51d003c3a8b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70616 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Knew I should have left the laptop off until Tuesday, but guess I had better answer this before then. <->Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? <->William Beaty <->Sat, 02 Sep 2006 13:52:13 -0700 <->On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Willis Jenkin wrote: > What OU (hate this acronym) or FE (hate this to) device is indeed out there > that in any way can even hope to put the smallest of dents in the energy > industry as it exist today? <->What successful devices are out there? If there really are any simple and <->working devices, then their inventors are keeping them secret. Or perhaps <->there are some successful devices buried in the huge number of fake "OU <->device plans" on various websites and patent archives. I had never thought of this possibility, if buried then very deeply indeed. <->In other words, the devices aren't outthere. There has NEVER been a simple <->successful OU device "out there," <->one which a kid can build for class, one which can run a flashlight bulb <->or keep your tea warm. I know they are not 'out there', simple or complex, yet hundreds of ego stars claim otherwise. My question is (was) if I had missed something and at long last some system managed to surface and survive? <->If you disagree, then let's see the device that you've built. We can post <->the plans on lenr-canr.org Heh. I do not disagree, yet I again question the 'moral' obligation to give such a device to the world for free, just to insure its sustained existence. <->Or are you keeping something secret? If I was it would remain so, isn't that what secrets are about? Simply put 'I do not hold the location of the pot of gold'. <->:) > Really, what? MIB's or no MIB's, you are NOT > going to be allowed to introduce ANY new source of energy to replace the > current, (unless you allow for another 100 years for its phase in). <->It's not "allow replacement" that's the issue. If you know of a working <->device, everyone on vortex-L can try building a copy. I can put the plans <->on scienceclub.org, or we can have S. Q. Field post it on scitoys.com as a <->project for kids. He already has a crude copper-oxide solar cell there, <->but no "OU energy device." We need a crude magnet-motor science project <->which actually works, and which kids can build for themselves. I hold the view that there are a number of forces working to maintain control, I'm sure they will enjoy this, but, I feel most governments are clue less. It's the non-government forces I have always wondered (truly feared) about. I like to make the reference as 'The Governors' rather than governments. Those silent unknown forces that are truly running the show. Paranoid? You bet. Make note of those that feel this is fantasy. > I am going far to far here, but a little thought on the chain reaction says > it will not happen even if it should. <->If you seriously think that ANY free-energy device is already out there <->and anyone can build one to demonstrate that it's real... which one is <->it? Have you made a successful Coler device or similar? Is it sitting in <->your garage, getting hot and putting out RF fields? If not, then do you <->know of someone else? It has to be someone who isn't trying to "get rich <->by keeping their device a secret." Consider this view. A system exists, yet the person or persons feel the world conditions are such that the release of such a system would spell its fate before ever being of benefit to a single individual. What if, it was determined that maybe 20-40 years from now the time may be ripe for such introduction. World conditions would be so bad that the massive need would insure that the people would not allow it to be buried. Following the same thought train lets assume there exists much like the tablets of Moses, full plans and a working system to start the whole chain of events when conditions are correct. Interesting and much different reasoning than what is normally advertised. Being in Seattle, and in the field you are in, I'm sure you must have heard of the farmer and his brother living in the Palouse out of Spokane. Think it was 1954 or 1955. The county sheriff and the REA made a visit. Seems people got nervous as the farm had electricity but was not connected to the grid. Found was a contraption (set of coils and a box with double sets of vibrating contacts, connected to a bank of batteries). Because the REA grid ran 100 yards from the shed, it was assumed fact that the contraption was stealing REA power. The device was taken by the sheriff and the REA. Wonder if this was the first so called OU device or a highly advanced theft way ahead of its time technology. I think most lists and groups are for self release, ego building and feeling a part of it all. The real shame of it all is that it also presents a platform for those "Governors" I worry about. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 2 16:43:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k82NhSxG013720; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 16:43:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k82NhQFT013697; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 16:43:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 16:43:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=HjsLg0OLhxZMj6zP1zMYPT71Em1FIElfdT3KHaSsd8Q2TzYyvgGR7kjArYvQGJgSKserBXpQnjh3ORMXWEbVm8pdpCaE2Kgc2dkuFN0Thyw+JYgzWQ2hNqX4SVPPahCC3rrpyC50lauv0BsCjCnfDoEEJetdl76yJZHFC36bYws= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 11:43:25 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FE, harassment, death threats In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_26960_19483569.1157240605465" References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1C195@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060901171127.04135dc0@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70617 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_26960_19483569.1157240605465 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Paul Brown did die in a car crash so it's possible he was killed. (some have called it suspicious) Also Stepan Marinov was possibly suicided. On 9/3/06, William Beaty wrote: > > On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > William Beaty wrote: > > >Suppose you stumbled across the same thing that Steorm > > >did. Apparently those guys aren't aquainted with the history of FE > > >fiascos. (For example, what will they do when the burglaries start, > > >or the anonymous death threats are phoned in against their families?) > > > > These things happened to Stan Pons and a few others, but I think such > > harassment is exceedingly rare, and nothing to worry about. > > Violence and threats only seem to happen to inventors who make claims of > simple, extremely high-output devices, yet keep everything secret. I > don't know if Steorm qualifies, but CF and Hydrodynamics don't. Steorn > mentions that their device is non-electrical, and that they measure their > output by having it lift a weight. > > > There are horror stories about: > > - Moray device (prototypes smashed, wounded in gun battle with burglars) > > - Hendershot device (death threats, eventually paid to stop work) > http://www.borderlands.com/freeenergy.htm > > - Clem device (beaten up, death threats against family) > http://www.keelynet.com/energy/clem3.htm > > - Sweet device (death threats) > http://amasci.com/freenrg/sweetvta.html > > - Bedini (beaten up) > > - Roschin/Godin wheel (prototype smashed) > http://www.rexresearch.com/roschin/roschin.htm > > - Hutchison (lab destroyed, recent harassment) > > - Kawai motor (Yakuza takeover) > http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/012202a.htm > > - Paul Brown (longterm harassment, bomb found in car) > http://www.padrak.com/ine/INE17.html > > > So is this exceedingly rare? Compared to what? > > Or do you assume that these were mostly hoaxers who were lying about being > threatened? For example, Dennis Lee constantly complains about being > suppressed. Greg Watson says he dropped the RMOG work after his family > was threatened. Searle says he was jailed for power theft because he used > his device to power his home. But these appear to be hoaxes or scams. > > > > Me, I'm not convinced that any organized conspiracy exists. But I think > the death threats do, and the violence does. I think it's wise to take > the violence seriously, while at the same time being very open-minded > about whether any vast suppression conspiracy being real, versus being > paranoid-delusional. It doesn't take a vast conspiracy to make a > threatening phone call late at night. > > > > I have never once been threatened or harassed by anyone other than a few > > cold fusion researchers. > > > But you aren't dealing with claims about building a device which ends the > need for batteries, and conceivably could be scaled up to run a car > without fuel, heat a home, etc. > > > > > The Steorm plans seem excessively complicated and time-consuming to > > me. Assuming they have something real and it can be demonstrated on a > > small scale who, I cannot imagine why they are going to all this > > trouble. If they could make a dozen prototypes and give four or five > > to me, or to Bill Beaty for that matter, we could probably convince > > the whole world in a few months. > > But then (gasp) just ANYBODY could build one! This seems to be the worst > nightmare for many inventors. How horrible if the inventor became, say, > the creator of the AC power grid, but most people had never heard their > name. > > There seems to be a "Free Energy Curse" which destroys people. But it's > no conspiracy, instead it's caused by inventors' own ego, greed, and need > for control. They don't want to plant a seed that creates a forest, > instead they want to build a forest all by themselves by hand, so they can > take all the credit for its existence. > > The Prometheus Game > http://amasci.com/freenrg/prometh.html > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > ------=_Part_26960_19483569.1157240605465 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Paul Brown did die in a car crash so it's possible he was killed. (some have called it suspicious)

Also Stepan Marinov was possibly suicided.

On 9/3/06, William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com> wrote:
On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> William Beaty wrote:
> >Suppose you stumbled across the same thing that Steorm
> >did.  Apparently those guys aren't aquainted with the history of FE
> >fiascos.  (For example, what will they do when the burglaries start,
> >or the anonymous death threats are phoned in against their families?)
>
> These things happened to Stan Pons and a few others, but I think such
> harassment is exceedingly rare, and nothing to worry about.

Violence and threats only seem to happen to inventors who make claims of
simple, extremely high-output devices, yet keep everything secret.  I
don't know if Steorm qualifies, but CF and Hydrodynamics don't.  Steorn
mentions that their device is non-electrical, and that they measure their
output by having it lift a weight.


There are horror stories about:

  - Moray device (prototypes smashed, wounded in gun battle with burglars)

  - Hendershot device (death threats, eventually paid to stop work)
    http://www.borderlands.com/freeenergy.htm

  - Clem device (beaten up, death threats against family)
    http://www.keelynet.com/energy/clem3.htm

  - Sweet device (death threats)
     http://amasci.com/freenrg/sweetvta.html

  - Bedini (beaten up)

  - Roschin/Godin wheel (prototype smashed)
    http://www.rexresearch.com/roschin/roschin.htm

  - Hutchison (lab destroyed, recent harassment)

  - Kawai motor (Yakuza takeover)
    http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/012202a.htm

  - Paul Brown (longterm harassment, bomb found in car)
    http://www.padrak.com/ine/INE17.html


So is this exceedingly rare?  Compared to what?

Or do you assume that these were mostly hoaxers who were lying about being
threatened?  For example, Dennis Lee constantly complains about being
suppressed.  Greg Watson says he dropped the RMOG work after his family
was threatened.  Searle says he was jailed for power theft because he used
his device to power his home.  But these appear to be hoaxes or scams.



Me, I'm not convinced that any organized conspiracy exists.  But I think
the death threats do, and the violence does.  I think it's wise to take
the violence seriously, while at the same time being very open-minded
about whether any vast suppression conspiracy being real, versus being
paranoid-delusional.   It doesn't take a vast conspiracy to make a
threatening phone call late at night.


> I have never once been threatened or harassed by anyone other than a few
> cold fusion researchers.


But you aren't dealing with claims about building a device which ends the
need for batteries, and conceivably could be scaled up to run a car
without fuel, heat a home, etc.



> The Steorm plans seem excessively complicated and time-consuming to
> me. Assuming they have something real and it can be demonstrated on a
> small scale who, I cannot imagine why they are going to all this
> trouble. If they could make a dozen prototypes and give four or five
> to me, or to Bill Beaty for that matter, we could probably convince
> the whole world in a few months.

But then (gasp) just ANYBODY could build one!  This seems to be the worst
nightmare for many inventors.  How horrible if the inventor became, say,
the creator of the AC power grid, but most people had never heard their
name.

There seems to be a "Free Energy Curse" which destroys people.  But it's
no conspiracy, instead it's caused by inventors' own ego, greed, and need
for control.  They don't want to plant a seed that creates a forest,
instead they want to build a forest all by themselves by hand, so they can
take all the credit for its existence.

   The Prometheus Game
   http://amasci.com/freenrg/prometh.html



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  425-222-5066    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci


------=_Part_26960_19483569.1157240605465-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 2 19:02:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k83226Qv009625; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 19:02:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k83224Bj009604; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 19:02:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 19:02:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=S1wX3qLUecsZjlE7aLZt/AchkKHPT+UVQsObFPkQjZMewaKgY/mR/ZV4c5mxZRZLHx9Jghzvo5m2q6UH1WvFok7NJkZUZzgYjL7MVD8EuzV86dmQoAn6Pr5j1GUtAxqVrEmKIxA0S5dkmb0dj36MnRDxzp4MJsp8TmW+tCcCQKc= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 22:02:02 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70618 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9/2/06, William Beaty wrote: > On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > I'd do exactly what Paul Sprain did. > > > Sprain? I haven't heard of him. Patent no. US 6954019. An elegent implementation of a magnetic gradient motor . . . sort of a circular SMOT. Here's a brief video: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/magnet_motor01.avi Here's a still: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/magmo.jpg > You mean that he's closed the loop? I have personally measured the COP at 2.35. Closing the loop has proven difficult. This is the voltage we have gotten from a permanent magnet motor attached to the rotor: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/427_V_CH1.xl If I could spend more time on the project, I am almost certain we could close the loop. But this waveform represents the gradient and is difficult to turn into the 1 joule pulse we need to fire the electromagnet. However, Paul is bored with this device having first built it in 2003. Plus he now has a billionaire investor. The device works from a gradient of 0.8 gauss per degree. We have a new magnet under construction which will provide a gradient of 20 gauss per degree. Watch this space. :-) Terry PS I have tons of data if you are really interested. Hope you got broadband! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 2 19:06:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k83263wH011894; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 19:06:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k83262Om011878; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 19:06:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 19:06:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XAqu59TmZ9CaROCyfYtw1nPVimClS4b7LKbqOO8yyTf/aLdxo8Tflj2pvs1oq5LUVhsaqtmLiR5sUwRf7Ud637cINezmAzylJqWKpTueq1qKuhdKPngstPxnzoQKl/oKjcfMSLzLkHaeIju7KlHilmBIvUAKHuR6Zds9cqQaaHk= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 22:06:00 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70619 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9/2/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > This is the voltage we have gotten from a permanent > magnet motor attached to the rotor: > > http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/427_V_CH1.xl the file should read: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/427_V_CH1.xls But you probably figured that out. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 2 19:47:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k832lX9l000813; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 19:47:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k832lVwB000797; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 19:47:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 19:47:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 22:47:23 -0400 Message-Id: <8C89D1A6B00585E-EBC-1F8@mblk-d31.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AIM WebMail 19656 Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 205.188.212.215 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k832lU06000777 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70620 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9/2/06, Terry Blanton wrote:    > This is the voltage we have gotten from a permanent  > magnet motor attached to the rotor:  >  > http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/427_V_CH1.xl    the file should read:    http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/427_V_CH1.xls    But you probably figured that out.    <><><><><><> I should also clarify that the PM motor mentioned above is being used as a generator. It's late and I am tired. The generator is only 48% efficient at the 90 RPM loaded rotation rate of the Sprain Magmo. Since the EM needs to be fired with 20 VDC I could build a gating circuit which charges our capacitor after the ramp voltage exceeds around 18 VDC; however, Paul is awaiting delivery of the new mag and a COP of 2.35 is on the ragged edge of being able to work. You really need a COP of 3.0 to self-run. It's quite difficult to calculate the COP of the new arrangement. However, it looks like it will freewheel at a rate faster than 3600 rpm. While the pulse will need to be close to 100 A at 110 V, the duration is much, much less. I am calculating COPs 1 to 2 orders of magnitude greater than the present configuration. I have some of the best MEs helping me; but, we can't believe our calculations. It looks like the new configuration will be able to generate 1000 to 3000 excess watts. An amusing anecdote: When we were presenting to the billionaire investor, he asked how we will start the motor. Obviously, the answer is by using the generator as a starter motor. However, I responded, "We will start them at the factory since there is never any reason to stop them." The PhD in magnetics who works for the magnet manufacturer was skeptical until we had him run 3D simulations of the new magnet. When it finally dawned on him what this would do, he said "Do you realize what you have here??" LOL! Paul wants to use them to desalinate the Atlantic and irrigate the Sahara. Oh, and make $$. :-) I just want to put the oilies back on their camels and in their tents. We are funding BOTH sides of the war. Terry   ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 2 20:57:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k833upUT027682; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 20:56:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k833ueGh027440; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 20:56:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 20:56:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 17:56:09 -1000 Organization: Highsurf.com Message-ID: <000001c6cf0c$ec138fe0$63783b05@RicksL2000> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcbPA33bJtTf8azqQJeSudfPZcaaAAACNrLA In-Reply-To: <8C89D1A6B00585E-EBC-1F8@mblk-d31.sysops.aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Antivirus-Scanner: Clean mail though you should still use an Antivirus X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - kappa.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70621 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry wrote: .>>It looks like the new configuration will be able to generate 1000 to 3000 excess watts. Wow, that's enough for someone to start a CULT with! R. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 2 23:18:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k836IPsm011846; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:18:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k836IJBw011784; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:18:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:18:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44FA73A1.6020604@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 01:18:09 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1C218@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1C218@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70622 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: > >If I find a free energy electrical device, I will measure its performance by DC ONLY, no AC. There will be no questions about reactive power! > I feel compelled to quote the late Otto Schmitt who said in regards to proving energy output, "go heat water." To which I would add, measure the energy input with a multi frequency spectrum analyzer. > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 2 23:18:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k836IRQ9011871; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:18:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k836IMR3011824; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:18:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:18:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44FA7388.7000001@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 01:17:44 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1C195@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1C195@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70623 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: >Suppose you stumbled across the same thing that Steorm did. Apparently those guys aren't aquainted with the history of FE fiascos. (For example, what will they do when the burglaries start, or the anonymous >death threats are phoned in against their families?) > Excellent point. Only time will tell is that scenario is correct, or obfuscation to cover lies. >Now, suppose I wanted to give it away free, for the good of the world, as Paul Brown said ( before he died). In this case I would offer simple > I'll never for get a posting on Dale Pond's discussion group following Paul's death. Someone wanted to know why anyone would want to kill him. Dale pointed out that F E would upset various economic interests. Even more important are political agendas. OTOH, Paul had a history of driving fast, and he was driving a '72 model car which lacked many of the modern saftey features. An investigative journalist wrote up Paul's story, it would make quite a movie. I wrote him an email, but was ignored. >to avoid being killed by oil companies/men in black/ Wackenhut people and to liberate mankind from Fascists and Islamofascists. > > Don't worry about the Islamists, they'd commercialize it. Wackenhut OTOH marches to the beat of a different drummer. > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 2 23:22:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k836MW1i014381; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:22:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k836MUMR014362; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:22:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:22:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44FA7477.2020701@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 01:21:43 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1C254@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1C254@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70624 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: > >Get a copy of "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and consider its contents. > I listened to the author being interviewed on C to C AM. I sent his URL to the Salem Radio Network Talkers and was ignored. They are Center Right, and "America can do no wrong," seems to be a fundamental tenant to their world view. BTW, I just finished reading Kevin Phillip's American Dynasty. IMHO, Phillips takes a rather centerist position. OTOH on of the center right Talkers attacked him for twisting history to fit his own agenda, I'm still looking for the twisting of any historical facts. > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 2 23:29:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k836Tnq9017372; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:29:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k836TmTa017352; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:29:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:29:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44FA7635.8000909@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 01:29:09 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fwd: MAHG at TeslaTech convention References: <20060831035425.26016.qmail@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <44F7D40F.8040205@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5SDE4.A.EPE.bZn-EB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70625 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Of course there are those that claim that, but this isn't about > seperation and recombination of H2 and O but of H and H. > Hum, my friend said that he has some new spark plugs coming that are supposed to make it possible to run an ICE on Brown's Gas. So if the plugs could do the H and H, or H and D reaction, his claims might just comport with theory. My waiting to see an ICE that runs on the output of the alternator may be at an end. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 3 02:13:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k839DeLs014711; Sun, 3 Sep 2006 02:13:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k839DZxo014640; Sun, 3 Sep 2006 02:13:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 02:13:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.08,204,1154880000"; d="scan'208"; a="927889950:sNHT19116596" Message-ID: <44FA9B50.1010005@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 19:07:28 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm References: <44F6FBDE.2040904@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70626 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks Robin, I thought I had typed kW but missed the mistake. Well spotted. Damn Dyslexia. Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:10:22 >+1000: >Hi, >[snip] > > >>If it is 500 mW / cc [0.5 watts/ litre] then I have about a hundred >> >> > >Actually 0.5 kW / L. (A mW is a milli-Watt, not a microwatt). >Clearly there are millions of applications for it (i.e. just about >everything that uses power). > > > >>applications for it. >>One key question is whether it generates gyroscopic forces; that could >>make it hard to use on a vehicle. >> >> > >Not at all, just use them in pairs that compensate for one >another. Besides cars already contain fly-wheels, and they don't >cause any problems. The new Tesla electric car has a single >electric motor which also rotates, and that doesn't cause a >problem. >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition provides the motivation, >Cooperation provides the means. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 3 02:20:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k839KRh1018193; Sun, 3 Sep 2006 02:20:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k839KNLT018149; Sun, 3 Sep 2006 02:20:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 02:20:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.08,204,1154880000"; d="scan'208"; a="461321622:sNHT16914920" Message-ID: <44FA9E4D.8070206@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 19:20:13 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm - a great post! References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70627 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Fix the typo in it it says 0.5 W should be 0.5 kW, Sorry about that. Mark Goldes wrote: > Wes, > > You have hit the nail directly on the head. This is the best summary > I've seen of Steorn's reasoning before they decided to follow the path > they have taken. > > Hope you don't mind, but I've copied it to another venue... > > Excellent analysis! > > Mark > > > > >> From: Wesley Bruce >> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm >> Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:10:22 +1000 >> >> Your overlooking the problem of patents. The patent will not be >> allowed if the theory is disputed and it gets worse if there is no >> theory at all.Steorm wants the patents on this. Peer reviews wont >> help the reviewers must have hands on contact. They simply wont >> believe a paper. >> There are several ways to do what needs to be done. >> >> * Publish a peer review paper and a patent at the same time. The >> publicize both. That was what Fleischmann and Pons tried and it >> did not work. >> * The Steorm jury, This is the process used in the past with several >> disputed discoveries. Including the latitude contest, some early >> discoveries in medicine including immunization and safe blood >> donations. It is common in classified work where public papers etc >> would kill the projects secrecy. >> * Build a car or boat and dive or sail it past large audiences. The >> first submarine, the first steam train contests and of cause the >> Wright brothers. >> * Publish the design outside peer review and have hundreds duplicate >> the work. Paul C.W. Chu and his colleagues, the discoverers of >> high temperature Yittirium based superconductors followed this >> path in part. As far as I know they had to forgo the possibility >> of patents but got major awards and posts which is a compensation. >> [if I have this bit wrong tell me please.] >> >> Each has its challenges and it risks. >> A test requires several things: >> >> * The starting impulse, if required, must be filly controlled and >> measured. I.e. do you start it with a shove or not? >> * It must run a load. >> * All wires,etc must be visible labeled and reasonably tamper proof. >> >> If placed in an air tight box filled will it still run. This will get >> submarine designers interested. >> If it still runs if it is turned upside down it will get a lot of >> Nasa attention. >> >> The best test of a scam is to ask the two key questions. >> >> 1. How do they intend to make a buck from the scam? >> 2. How do they intend to escape prosecution if it is a scam. Can they >> run and hide somehow? >> >> Steorm is not asking for money in any way and I can't see how they >> could be pulling a scam. Where's the money in it if their not telling >> the truth? >> There is too much data on the people involved for them to up and run >> if it is a scam. A good conman never gets his photo all over the web. >> >> These guys seem to be real. There may be an error that they can't see >> but there does not seem to be scam. >> >> I doubt that the laws of thermodynamics are under any threat. Any >> demonstration of free energy is in effect simply a demonstration that >> we have not yet measured and named all of the energy fluxes in the >> the universe. Once we have a powerplant running in we can measure its >> out put from place to place,or over time or in proximity to other >> things. Any slight variations in output will allow us to map and then >> define the underlying energy flow. >> >> If it is 500 mW / cc [0.5 watts/ litre] then I have about a hundred >> applications for it. >> One key question is whether it generates gyroscopic forces; that >> could make it hard to use on a vehicle. >> >> William Beaty wrote: >> >>> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, Mark Goldes wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> That is great news! >>>> >>>> I have not listened to the interview. >>>> >>>> All the more likely they have done what they claim. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> If they just published detailed plans and construction info on their >>> website, (and if the device is relatively easy to get working,) >>> there'd be >>> no need for this "jury" stuff. It looks like a publicity stunt, not a >>> legit tactic. On the other hand, their device could be like SMOT, >>> and be >>> extremely difficult to work with. That would be a good reason *not* to >>> just post the plans and let everyone try building it. (The >>> Pons-Fleichman >>> problem also involved a large number of failed replications.) >>> >>> But if secrecy wasn't their philosophy, they could just *say* that >>> they'd >>> otherwise just release everything ...but that their device is finicky. >>> >>> >>> Where FE is concerned, secrecy has always been the major evil in the >>> past. >>> The secrecy keeps onlookers from knowing whether it's a scam. The >>> secrecy >>> sets up a catch-22 for selling OU products or even finding legit >>> investors. And I suspect that if any groups want to suppress the >>> discovery, inventor's secrecy is absolutly critical to successful >>> suppression. >>> >>> Watch closely. We'll see if I'm right again. >>> >>> >>> (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) >>> William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >>> billb at amasci com http://amasci.com >>> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair >>> Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci >>> >>> >>> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 3 08:26:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k83FQNXd008499; Sun, 3 Sep 2006 08:26:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k83FQK9f008445; Sun, 3 Sep 2006 08:26:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 08:26:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200609031526.k83FQEL0098889@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 10:26:13 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_0c18099485e5e142e5ceb432ea1c3635" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 66.168.30.131 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70628 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=_0c18099485e5e142e5ceb432ea1c3635 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Terry: ... > If I could spend more time on the project, I am almost > certain we could close the loop. But this waveform > represents the gradient and is difficult to turn into > the 1 joule pulse we need to fire the electromagnet. > However, Paul is bored with this device having first > built it in 2003. Plus he now has a billionaire investor. Hmmm... Interesting. That billionaire investor's initials aren't B.G. are they? It would be nice to see some serious investment in these controversial areas - finally. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_0c18099485e5e142e5ceb432ea1c3635 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From Terry:

...

> If I could spend more time on the project, I am almost
> certain we could close the loop. But this waveform
> represents the gradient and is difficult to turn into
> the 1 joule pulse we need to fire the electromagnet.
> However, Paul is bored with this device having first
> built it in 2003. Plus he now has a billionaire investor.

Hmmm... Interesting. That billionaire investor's initials aren't B.G. are t= hey?

It would be nice to see some serious investment in these controversial area= s - finally.


Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks
Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_0c18099485e5e142e5ceb432ea1c3635-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 3 08:51:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k83FpRtV022461; Sun, 3 Sep 2006 08:51:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k83FpQJZ022442; Sun, 3 Sep 2006 08:51:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 08:51:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=CAJ6QomweniNMANi261jAHwcTtNgRGpK+AJvqReKz0bcnEDGyCMu3/3raE3hMNnQHNF3mWJnshEBv7NZJNZL3TgRlPpIV013fFHRmFYWzYwiTKnRL4PUgSTgo/E08qg580vvTIsW0gESyrwCTaAaH2c3IkBv4TtKWlOjhMZ4wn4= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 11:51:24 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? In-Reply-To: <200609031526.k83FQEL0098889@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200609031526.k83FQEL0098889@mail2.mx.voyager.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70629 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9/3/06, OrionWorks wrote: > Hmmm... Interesting. That billionaire investor's initials aren't B.G. are > they? > > It would be nice to see some serious investment in these controversial areas > - finally. Nope, R.R., from a totally energy unrelated business. AAMOF the presentation we gave was to RR and his head technical advisor, an ME. RR said that he did not think that his holding company would be interested since it was totally outside their line of business. However, he said he was personally interested. He presented it to his BoD and they declined for the stated reason. He is not in it for the money. He has lived over four score years and wants to leave a legacy. His goal is to feed the hungry of the world. Imagine what a fuel less energy source of only 1 kW could do for the third world! An amusing anecdote: While they were signing the papers at one of the largest country clubs here, Paul said the waiter asked for RR's account number who gave the boy a three digit number. The waiter said that wasn't enough digits. RR said check it out. Of course they were sequentially assigned and RR had merely left off the leading zeros. :-) Anyway, it will all be public soon. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 3 09:25:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k83GPhaw006825; Sun, 3 Sep 2006 09:25:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k83GPfN2006802; Sun, 3 Sep 2006 09:25:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 09:25:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200609031625.k83GPYbc037723@mail1.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 11:25:34 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_7f7c80d58e1cb004366b87a9fe63f6e9" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 66.168.30.131 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70630 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=_7f7c80d58e1cb004366b87a9fe63f6e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Terry, Thanks for the clarification. ... > An amusing anecdote: While they were signing the papers > at one of the largest country clubs here, Paul said the > waiter asked for RR's account number who gave the boy a > three digit number. The waiter said that wasn't enough > digits. RR said check it out. Of course they were > sequentially assigned and RR had merely left off the > leading zeros. > :-) > > Anyway, it will all be public soon. > > Terry And I look forward to reading about it too! PS: There's an irrational part of me that sometimes thinks that some of those middle eastern countries would feel much happier about their circumstances and themselves if they could just find a way to get back to the basics in life - you know, the nomadic way of life, herding camels, and living in tents out in the pristine desert. Almost sounds romantic. Let's see if we can help them out. Steve Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_7f7c80d58e1cb004366b87a9fe63f6e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Terry,

Thanks for the clarification.

...

> An amusing anecdote: While they were signing the papers
> at one of the largest country clubs here, Paul said the
> waiter asked for RR's account number who gave the boy a
> three digit number. The waiter said that wasn't enough
> digits. RR said check it out. Of course they were
> sequentially assigned and RR had merely left off the
> leading zeros.
> :-)
>
> Anyway, it will all be public soon.
>
> Terry

And I look forward to reading about it too!

PS: There's an irrational part of me that sometimes thinks that some of tho= se middle eastern countries would feel much happier about their circumstanc= es and themselves if they could just find a way to get back to the basics i= n life - you know, the nomadic way of life, herding camels, and living in t= ents out in the pristine desert. Almost sounds romantic.

Let's see if we can help them out.

Steve
Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_7f7c80d58e1cb004366b87a9fe63f6e9-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 3 10:07:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k83H710i027716; Sun, 3 Sep 2006 10:07:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k83H6k7F027585; Sun, 3 Sep 2006 10:06:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 10:06:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=MHElfud8Q8QNIsmn9bc99EmSj921f0wscPNttbFX1xX7Y3sGm3v4wQF8AQsv1arSX8jZ9v0AFulnp26R3SVfls3rc40uloC8Cb2HIkRfQrIlqIhZUoYND64gj/Y23i/j8HNk0rMpR+FQrZkelhTzjmQ46O/mP2ydcZrljaQu98M= ; Message-ID: <008e01c6cf7b$55345d60$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 10:06:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70631 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: "Coming Alive" with biofuel Status: RO X-Status: The Lesser of Evils. When you hear that phrase, you can bet that 'political expediency' is waiting to take the stage. There is said to be no humor (and little sanity) in the Biofuel arena- at least in the 'big picture' - especially if it were to 'boil down' the issue to either distilling ethanol from edible grain, or else buying Arab oil (which among other things subsidizes the purchasing the bombs by extremists used to kill our troops, allies and whatever collateral damage is inevitable). Fortunately, the choice does not 'have to' boil down to that, and therefore, I will give it a shot (the humor aspect - at least cynical-clinical). Subsidizing ethanol, to be sure, is politically expedient in the largest agriculture economy on the planet, and most instances of political expediency are either unfair (to a segment of society with little political 'pull') or inefficient ... or both, except... ... when the feedstock is sugar-loaded but otherwise worthless (or toxic) as nutritional intake [i.e. Pepsi Cola] ... There is an ethanol co-op in Los Angeles where they make fuel from expired soda pop [of all kinds]. It cost about $2 per gallon for co-op members. I had thought the shelf life of Pepsi was in the decades, due to the fact that it will not support life as we know it, but apparently not. Speaking of extended shelf-life... in 1967 my friend found himself in a ditch in Viet Nam surrounded by the bodies of his former platoon, the enemy, and intense hunger on the second day. Scrounging around for something to eat, he found a few tins of recently issued C-rations (affectionately known as sea-rats) which had an expiration date clearly marked: 1946. He survived both life-threatening indignities. Sadly, this is generally the way the Pentagon often treats our young men who put their lives on the line for "freedom" (our whatever other euphemistic lie we foster on them to go to a hostile land and die) then and now... as evidenced recently by Rumsfeld's part in the body armor fiasco. BTW - In Taiwan, the translation of the Pepsi slogan, "Come Alive With the Pepsi Generation," came out as, "Pepsi Will Bring Your Ancestors Back From The Dead". Not quite as brain-dead in the marketing sense as GM-Chevy naming an automobile "Nova" for the Mexican market (no va) but close... Making biofuel from food crops is also a no-go. I would even say it is morally wrong, given the number of underfed people in Africa and elsewhere. Making biofuels from crop-land is probably morally wrong as well, even land which was fallow for years. However making biofuels from trees or ag waste is not objectionable to the majority, or to common sense. 100% of the wood used in paper these days is grown on dedicated land for that purpose, so biodiesel made from trees will not even raise the price of paper. The mountains of Appalachia, Montana, and Western Canada are the perfect place to harvest cellulose for biofuel - but not by clear cutting. Harvesting cellulose from trees can probably best be accomplished - eventually but soon, by robotic pruning of natural growth in old forests - except for the objections of the Sierra Club, a group which often sides with OPEC on such issues. Reverse political expediency, I guess. Transesterification of vegetable oils has been in use since the mid-1800's for making soap. The "by-products" of this process are methyl esters. Biodiesel is composed of these esters and can be made directly from wood cellulose. Ethyl esters are grain based while methyl esters are wood based. Any source of complex fatty acid can be used to create biodiesel. Research is also being done into oil production from algae, which could have yields far greater than any feedstock known today. However Algae need their own food source - most of which is found in air and water - but what better than "predigested cellulose" to speed up and synergize the Algae growth process? ..."predigested cellulose" now that'll keep you regular... and allow you to fill up with regular at the pump for 2 bucks a gallon, and provide some dose of 'political expediency' to keep the payola flowing ... but sadly - not as much as allowing farmers to make ethanol from corn. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 3 22:17:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k845H4N6028048; Sun, 3 Sep 2006 22:17:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k845GxiJ027953; Sun, 3 Sep 2006 22:16:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 22:16:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44FBB6B1.2020702@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 00:16:33 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Coming Alive" with biofuel References: <008e01c6cf7b$55345d60$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <008e01c6cf7b$55345d60$6401a8c0@NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70632 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > The Lesser of Evils. When you hear that phrase, you can bet that > 'political expediency' is waiting to take the stage. > > There is said to be no humor (and little sanity) in the Biofuel arena- > at least in the 'big picture' - especially if it were to 'boil down' > the issue to either distilling ethanol from edible grain, or else > buying Arab oil (which among other things subsidizes the purchasing > the bombs by extremists used to kill our troops, allies and whatever > collateral damage is inevitable). Coal can be turned into ethanol by making it into ethalyene oxide and then hydrogenating it. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 4 03:36:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k84AaKBs032193; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 03:36:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k84AaIp5032165; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 03:36:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 03:36:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index; b=EBF1gnsZGTu9DLSB7cjat4DCxPOFb4mJErOS4m3Z0GRS37Z9HaJHNPEVAFzsRx/0QqaFhg4Cu4xHcnK5h1CVXue3vB4KSgZggPQSTWEcuefcVEaF7XyXlbnitZAXR0GFddPk+eaqZHxvT3A8kh8UH6M6YF8y7V+xEbRTCsK9ZuE= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 11:36:10 +0100 Message-ID: <002c01c6d00d$f1434df0$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbQDe5cdQvJNKwaS7GP8fGHD9tGqA== Resent-Message-ID: <-wHETD.A.b2H.hGA_EB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70633 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: All this steorn stuff is a good argument for peer review Status: RO X-Status: All, Isn't all this steorn bandwidth a good example of the need for peer review and going to school? I amazed by the masses' gullibility. It's too easy to claim conspiracies, big oil etc. The biggest factors are: 1) Limit of human intellect - inventors too. 2) Academic conservatism and envy, just common or garden human envy and unproductiveness. 3) Gullibility and going with the flow. 4) Lack of patience to do good work and have it accepted by even the most conservative. 5) Limited resources. R.P. Feynman had it right in Cargo-Cult Science: The ships never land even though they've apparently painted the landing strip and turned on the lights! Same old, same old, told you so. R. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 4 04:15:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k84BFADH018205; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 04:15:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k84BF8T3018182; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 04:15:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 04:15:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=lSQEq0ZV+sHMRGNc/kGjiBBeCSK5uPnV49xJo7KpKs5FeIoTT1c7fB17k8D4c7xm+At4HQL8kWzWkGgPnqgpnvkQadw+LBIxlXf42cNtthtPiGjotI0Pa3l21ce1FQ/UK73N1hxfLXMNj/7MOLRgrPjR6ZN4HTWcHGg7x2zPKrQ= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: All this steorn stuff is a good argument for peer review Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 12:15:04 +0100 Message-ID: <002e01c6d013$609c9b70$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20060904065240.00ba7ce8@pop> Thread-Index: AcbQEPSymnmnNSUOSdqlPPnhLAtL9QAADClQ Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70635 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Philip, What and tinkers have a monopoly on intuition? This is a romantic notion that somehow getting educated cramps one style. Well it does for most but some get through it. This is the noble savage argument, "if Louis Armstrong can't read music then by association I'm a genius too 'cos I never had a day at school". No, you can't beat it: absolute honesty, putting stuff in the public domain making absolutely clear how it's done and *understanding* the science going on and saying what one doesn't understand and what is the further work. I reckon on the law of diminishing returns that between tinkering and over educated-unproductiveness that the best placed are the engineering-scientists - between theory and try it and see. That doesn't mean that it has to be found all in one person - teamwork helps immensely. Why didn't Steorn hire a good researcher? They can just interview until they find the ones who are open and then subject them to regular progress reviews and board meetings when the researcher is employed. They would bridge the gap between the tinkering, engineering domain and physics. This would help publication. It's a bit like having an advocate in a court case even though one might feel they can argue it themself. Take EarthTech: Scott Little, Michael Ibsen and Hal Puthoff (mind you Scott has a PhD in Mech. Eng and is no slouch). Or Crick and Watson Rolls and Royce Edison and Tesla Orvill and Wilbur and so on. The Steorn hype will be counterproductive to them first and others. Patience, patience, softly, softly catchee monkey. R. -----Original Message----- From: Philip Winestone [mailto:philip.winestone@rogers.com] Sent: 04 September 2006 11:54 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: All this steorn stuff is a good argument for peer review Perhaps I can add one factor: The neglect of the human intuitive faculty. P. At 11:36 AM 9/4/2006 +0100, you wrote: >All, >Isn't all this steorn bandwidth a good example of the need for peer review >and going to school? > >I amazed by the masses' gullibility. > >It's too easy to claim conspiracies, big oil etc. The biggest factors are: > >1) Limit of human intellect - inventors too. > >2) Academic conservatism and envy, just common or garden human envy and >unproductiveness. > >3) Gullibility and going with the flow. > >4) Lack of patience to do good work and have it accepted by even the most >conservative. > >5) Limited resources. > > >R.P. Feynman had it right in Cargo-Cult Science: > > The ships never land even though they've apparently painted the landing >strip and turned on the lights! > >Same old, same old, told you so. >R. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 4 05:55:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k84Ct1fd002236; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 05:55:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k84Ct00h002207; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 05:55:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 05:55:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=dGGVEcUftcISbjHcnfSU8PxdeUnQRdlo478l/1vHczW01tcax0J13JWBFpCUbmu7j9lNgGiegzCuRqisWZTtgvsFTleMmIfebFSToy8r9fL3JNudvvY9Y+FdyuCqBzyIKfWp3NIfA68bhR/NJUc2LNhlJAiNvk5vC76iZU75CN8= ; Message-ID: <20060904125459.70887.qmail@web33304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 05:54:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-787700729-1157374499=:70880" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <81ieDD.A.Pi.kIC_EB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70638 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: unsubscribe Status: RO X-Status: --0-787700729-1157374499=:70880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit unsubscribe --------------------------------- All-new Yahoo! 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All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. --0-787700729-1157374499=:70880-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 4 03:54:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k84AsV7x007696; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 03:54:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k84AsUgE007674; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 03:54:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 03:54:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=EoyOs7OOpQVq+X+9eDrSh/doy4IusxM1kOFzhN3tuLAr+evM85SAPVnTp4w8yE371ePBn8jYyO5VpmcH4yBIQRN7OnFNU5pK8whtS9pqQAO9Q1AoZRGyKV8S6hG7+81lhKQ1hTy/MnYcJRkiWqIWQNWe3bOHwnSaI7YuT5D35ew= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060904065240.00ba7ce8@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 06:54:21 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: All this steorn stuff is a good argument for peer review In-Reply-To: <002c01c6d00d$f1434df0$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> References: <002c01c6d00d$f1434df0$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70634 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Perhaps I can add one factor: The neglect of the human intuitive faculty. P. At 11:36 AM 9/4/2006 +0100, you wrote: >All, >Isn't all this steorn bandwidth a good example of the need for peer review >and going to school? > >I amazed by the masses' gullibility. > >It's too easy to claim conspiracies, big oil etc. The biggest factors are: > >1) Limit of human intellect - inventors too. > >2) Academic conservatism and envy, just common or garden human envy and >unproductiveness. > >3) Gullibility and going with the flow. > >4) Lack of patience to do good work and have it accepted by even the most >conservative. > >5) Limited resources. > > >R.P. Feynman had it right in Cargo-Cult Science: > > The ships never land even though they've apparently painted the landing >strip and turned on the lights! > >Same old, same old, told you so. >R. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 4 04:32:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k84BWAct027043; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 04:32:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k84BW92Z027015; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 04:32:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 04:32:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=LSyfow3SwZTJXm1Ul0/NbzW5s6XAzxkbLZR88uf2F2XUV1uy1hsHkCBGAVaTMRrLWpR2e9h/UeSt982kVYStbvUWUDTjq45ixNMhFlsDt4XRSEWQtZStJVtKwBwhByUeU0DPQWTugVxEkh9n6pUiqMRhPUyLz1qaaARqNYq5KCk= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060904072029.00ba7aa8@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 07:31:53 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: RE: [Vo]: All this steorn stuff is a good argument for peer review In-Reply-To: <002e01c6d013$609c9b70$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> References: <6.1.1.1.1.20060904065240.00ba7ce8@pop> <002e01c6d013$609c9b70$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70636 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Remi, No - I'm not into the "noble savage" stuff; all nonsense. But my experience has been that many problems, technical and non-technical - can be solved not by thinking linearly or sequentially, but by "not-thinking" which is the the only way I can put it. Once a solution is intuited, as you say below, the intense research starts, and this research is accomplished by our friend the Intellect. The beauty of "tinkering" is not that in itself it's effective. As you imply below, the tinkerer (often a very intuitive person) is one link in the tinkerer-engineer-physicist chain. In effect, his intuition is the source of all new ideas (and even trained scientists and engineers can be tinkerers; these are the truly effective ones); the intellect can only travel along existing roads, a situation which often results in something with which we're all familiar: scientific dogma. Steorn? Absolutely. Philip. At 12:15 PM 9/4/2006 +0100, you wrote: >Philip, >What and tinkers have a monopoly on intuition? This is a romantic notion >that somehow getting educated cramps one style. Well it does for most but >some get through it. This is the noble savage argument, "if Louis Armstrong >can't read music then by association I'm a genius too 'cos I never had a day >at school". > >No, you can't beat it: absolute honesty, putting stuff in the public domain >making absolutely clear how it's done and *understanding* the science going >on and saying what one doesn't understand and what is the further work. > >I reckon on the law of diminishing returns that between tinkering and over >educated-unproductiveness that the best placed are the >engineering-scientists - between theory and try it and see. That doesn't >mean that it has to be found all in one person - teamwork helps immensely. > >Why didn't Steorn hire a good researcher? They can just interview until they >find the ones who are open and then subject them to regular progress reviews >and board meetings when the researcher is employed. > >They would bridge the gap between the tinkering, engineering domain and >physics. This would help publication. It's a bit like having an advocate in >a court case even though one might feel they can argue it themself. > >Take EarthTech: Scott Little, Michael Ibsen and Hal Puthoff (mind you Scott >has a PhD in Mech. Eng and is no slouch). > >Or Crick and Watson >Rolls and Royce >Edison and Tesla >Orvill and Wilbur and so on. > >The Steorn hype will be counterproductive to them first and others. > >Patience, patience, softly, softly catchee monkey. >R. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Philip Winestone [mailto:philip.winestone@rogers.com] >Sent: 04 September 2006 11:54 >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: [Vo]: All this steorn stuff is a good argument for peer review > >Perhaps I can add one factor: The neglect of the human intuitive faculty. > >P. > > >At 11:36 AM 9/4/2006 +0100, you wrote: > >All, > >Isn't all this steorn bandwidth a good example of the need for peer review > >and going to school? > > > >I amazed by the masses' gullibility. > > > >It's too easy to claim conspiracies, big oil etc. The biggest factors are: > > > >1) Limit of human intellect - inventors too. > > > >2) Academic conservatism and envy, just common or garden human envy and > >unproductiveness. > > > >3) Gullibility and going with the flow. > > > >4) Lack of patience to do good work and have it accepted by even the most > >conservative. > > > >5) Limited resources. > > > > > >R.P. Feynman had it right in Cargo-Cult Science: > > > > The ships never land even though they've apparently painted the landing > >strip and turned on the lights! > > > >Same old, same old, told you so. > >R. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 4 05:50:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k84Co1oQ032195; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 05:50:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k84Cm2Co031427; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 05:48:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 05:48:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=G4I0a1S7BPYtZaVpVQ+NitEew0rx+I4oV1kk/SckgYoZJwY/3vHqf/cE0sLpzpgo4WIoE6zv3UU/lthO0UlXNSmwEwlS7ItM1zpUS9Z5q4ShGoW6oQc82DtEOlxu/LPivG/Fg7PNPxsSkoh2bOGb0P2dXZaZPf8IYHbpTnJZ0nQ= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060904084120.00ba7b50@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 08:47:44 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: RE: [Vo]: All this steorn stuff is a good argument for peer review - one more thing... In-Reply-To: <002e01c6d013$609c9b70$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> References: <6.1.1.1.1.20060904065240.00ba7ce8@pop> <002e01c6d013$609c9b70$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70637 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: A Remy - just one more thing... "This is a romantic notion that somehow getting educated cramps one style." It depends on whether a mind full of "facts" forms the basis or the end-point of all subsequent thinking. In my opinion, and to some extent in my experience, education is merely a useful tool for defining in a concrete way, what the intuitive facility whispers. Far more important is the ability of the educational process itself to train the mind in a disciplined yet flexible way. In other words, to provide the recipient of that education with an intellect that works well; kind of like spring steel if you'll pardon the metaphor. Many "well-educated" people are simply well-programmed computers. P. At 12:15 PM 9/4/2006 +0100, you wrote: >Philip, >What and tinkers have a monopoly on intuition? This is a romantic notion >that somehow getting educated cramps one style. Well it does for most but >some get through it. This is the noble savage argument, "if Louis Armstrong >can't read music then by association I'm a genius too 'cos I never had a day >at school". > >No, you can't beat it: absolute honesty, putting stuff in the public domain >making absolutely clear how it's done and *understanding* the science going >on and saying what one doesn't understand and what is the further work. > >I reckon on the law of diminishing returns that between tinkering and over >educated-unproductiveness that the best placed are the >engineering-scientists - between theory and try it and see. That doesn't >mean that it has to be found all in one person - teamwork helps immensely. > >Why didn't Steorn hire a good researcher? They can just interview until they >find the ones who are open and then subject them to regular progress reviews >and board meetings when the researcher is employed. > >They would bridge the gap between the tinkering, engineering domain and >physics. This would help publication. It's a bit like having an advocate in >a court case even though one might feel they can argue it themself. > >Take EarthTech: Scott Little, Michael Ibsen and Hal Puthoff (mind you Scott >has a PhD in Mech. Eng and is no slouch). > >Or Crick and Watson >Rolls and Royce >Edison and Tesla >Orvill and Wilbur and so on. > >The Steorn hype will be counterproductive to them first and others. > >Patience, patience, softly, softly catchee monkey. >R. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Philip Winestone [mailto:philip.winestone@rogers.com] >Sent: 04 September 2006 11:54 >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: [Vo]: All this steorn stuff is a good argument for peer review > >Perhaps I can add one factor: The neglect of the human intuitive faculty. > >P. > > >At 11:36 AM 9/4/2006 +0100, you wrote: > >All, > >Isn't all this steorn bandwidth a good example of the need for peer review > >and going to school? > > > >I amazed by the masses' gullibility. > > > >It's too easy to claim conspiracies, big oil etc. The biggest factors are: > > > >1) Limit of human intellect - inventors too. > > > >2) Academic conservatism and envy, just common or garden human envy and > >unproductiveness. > > > >3) Gullibility and going with the flow. > > > >4) Lack of patience to do good work and have it accepted by even the most > >conservative. > > > >5) Limited resources. > > > > > >R.P. Feynman had it right in Cargo-Cult Science: > > > > The ships never land even though they've apparently painted the landing > >strip and turned on the lights! > > > >Same old, same old, told you so. > >R. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 4 12:56:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k84JtwDb025703; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 12:55:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k84JtvIN025683; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 12:55:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 12:55:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 12:55:56 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20060904084120.00ba7b50@pop> Message-ID: References: <6.1.1.1.1.20060904065240.00ba7ce8@pop> <002e01c6d013$609c9b70$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> <6.1.1.1.1.20060904084120.00ba7b50@pop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70639 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: A break from FE discussions... Status: RO X-Status: Experimenting with videos on you-tube: Non-intertial reference frame http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WyULc3jCgg (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 4 12:58:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k84JvwJx027421; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 12:57:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k84JvrXE027378; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 12:57:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 12:57:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 12:57:52 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20060904084120.00ba7b50@pop> Message-ID: References: <6.1.1.1.1.20060904065240.00ba7ce8@pop> <002e01c6d013$609c9b70$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> <6.1.1.1.1.20060904084120.00ba7b50@pop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70640 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: A break from FE discussions... Status: RO X-Status: The Hutchison effect? How about: The "Bill Beaty-tchison effect" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8pTio26Xgw (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 4 13:26:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k84KQ7kN014840; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 13:26:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k84KQ6rR014820; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 13:26:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 13:26:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 13:26:04 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20060904084120.00ba7b50@pop> Message-ID: References: <6.1.1.1.1.20060904065240.00ba7ce8@pop> <002e01c6d013$609c9b70$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> <6.1.1.1.1.20060904084120.00ba7b50@pop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70641 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Mysterious phenomenon explained Status: RO X-Status: Some people claim that they've seen stroboscopic effect in truck wheels on the highway. Supposedly the wheels look like they are turning backwards slowly. SUpposedly this occurs in sunlight, NOT under streetlights which flash at 120Hz, and NOT with the truck driving past with changing angles. Well, a "great" mystery is solved! :) I finally saw the effect myself. The cause is pretty obvious. The backwards motion comes entirely from the flashing facets of the lug nuts on the wheels. Trucks have ten lug nuts, and if the flashes from the hex nuts occur at slightly different locations for each nut, then we might see a pattern which moves at a different speed than the wheel. The lug nuts must be oriented in organized fashion. If they've been applied with an air wrench, they will be randomized, and no "strobe patterns" will appear. The simplest pattern is to orient all the lug nuts radially. This produces reflections which remain static as the truck wheel spins. If instead we twist the first nut by 6deg, the next by 12deg, etc., then the tenth nut will twist by 60deg or one hex facet. Spin this wheel, and we see a rotating light pattern which moves 6x slower than the spinning wheel. We can make the pattern go backwards or forwards depending on which way the lugs were turned. Now here's something weird. If we twist the nuts by -36deg each time, then all the nuts will be aligned parallel to a single parallel line. This orientation gives a flashing pattern, but also products a backwards drifting pattern as the wheel rotates. This orientation of nuts would occur naturally if the nuts were tightened with a tire-iron. (If you step on the handles of the tire-iron so it tilts to the same angle each time, then all the nuts will be aligned parallel.) I made some spinning disks with lug nuts stuck on with foam tape. Take a look at the youtube videos: Nuts aligned parallel (the tire-iron tightening pattern.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78Mc9kg2kU8 Improved version (progressive 6deg twists) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LRnJIPoF9w So... it looks like the "strobe effect" pattern on truck wheels is entirely real, and is most probably a naturally-occuring effect which happens whenever someone tightens the nuts with a tire iron and not an air-wrench. And by setting the nuts to an improved orientation, much more clear and obvious patterns can be produced! PS I bought a thermal camera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQPUzPXKRuU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ-8yFgWt-c http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=6E21BC6820E062A6 (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 4 17:14:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k850ELNP011758; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:14:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k850EJET011734; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:14:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:14:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c6d080$3381be50$a0037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]: Pitkinen magnetics paper Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:14:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6D056.4A176590" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70642 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6D056.4A176590 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6D056.4A176590" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6D056.4A176590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, Interesting insight in magnetics study by Pitkanen.=20 http://www.rexresearch.com/roschin/pitkanen.pdf My interest is the application of some of the thoughts expressed in his = paper to a water vortex. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6D056.4A176590 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
Interesting insight in magnetics study by Pitkanen.
 
 http://www.rexre= search.com/roschin/pitkanen.pdf
 
My interest is the application of some of the thoughts expressed in = his=20 paper to a water vortex.
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6D056.4A176590-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6D056.4A176590 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c6d080$32ea6050$a0037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6D056.4A176590-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 4 17:33:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k850XolZ021521; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:33:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k850XnMF021503; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:33:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:33:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002201c6d082$ef2e4270$a0037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: All this Steorn stuff.. Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:33:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01C6D059.05D32BF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70643 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C6D059.05D32BF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001F_01C6D059.05D32BF0" ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C6D059.05D32BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Philip wrote, >and this research is=20 >accomplished by our friend the Intellect. Howdy Philip, And a most reliable friend indeed. Couple intellect with desire and a = true "tinkerer" is created. My experience with mentoring a few Aggie = undergrad engineering majors give ample evidence that most youngsters = should never aspire to become engineers because they lack that = intangible "essence" required. The record number of freshmen engineering = majors that opt out of the engineering schools may appear to be an = epidemic but is actually a healthly culling. It is surprising to learn = how many engineering grads later do not aspire to become engineers. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C6D059.05D32BF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
Philip wrote,
 
>and this research is
>accomplished by our friend the=20 Intellect.
 
Howdy Philip,
 
And a most reliable friend indeed. Couple intellect with desire and = a true=20 "tinkerer" is created. My experience with mentoring a few Aggie = undergrad=20 engineering majors give ample evidence that most youngsters should never = aspire=20 to become engineers because they lack that intangible "essence" = required. The=20 record number of freshmen engineering majors that opt out of the = engineering=20 schools may appear to be an epidemic but is actually a healthly = culling. It=20 is surprising to learn how many engineering grads later do not aspire to = become=20 engineers.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C6D059.05D32BF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C6D059.05D32BF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001d01c6d082$eea7ad50$a0037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C6D059.05D32BF0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 4 20:15:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k853F3VH014479; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 20:15:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k853F29u014466; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 20:15:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 20:15:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 23:11:15 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: All this Steorn stuff.. In-reply-to: <6.1.1.1.1.20060904224148.00ba7cf8@pop> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70645 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For a university's book to balance, I wonder how many students need to quit or flunk after the first or second year. Harry Philip Winestone wrote: > Hi Richard. > > "Essence" indeed... The essence is most likely the intuitive aspect (or > part of the intuitive aspect) I was babbling about. > > Interesting about "culling". Back in Scotland, where I graduated, the > culling was done by the university. 60% in the first year and a further > 60% (of the remainder) in the second year. And as you say, of the > remaining (exhausted) bunch, most were trying to get out of Engineering > itself as soon as possible. Into management where the pay and prestige > were far greater than those of the grunts manning the slide-rules (remember > them?). > > P. > > > > At 07:33 PM 9/4/2006 -0500, you wrote: >> >> Philip wrote, >> >>> and this research is >>> accomplished by our friend the Intellect. >> >> Howdy Philip, >> >> And a most reliable friend indeed. Couple intellect with desire and a true >> "tinkerer" is created. My experience with mentoring a few Aggie undergrad >> engineering majors give ample evidence that most youngsters should never >> aspire to become engineers because they lack that intangible "essence" >> required. The record number of freshmen engineering majors that opt out of >> the engineering schools may appear to be an epidemic but is actually a >> healthly culling. It is surprising to learn how many engineering grads >> later do not aspire to become engineers. >> >> Richard >> >> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 4 19:49:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k852ms05032226; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:48:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k852mreR032207; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:48:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:48:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=sp0cdjy2wrLpeno1SKYmiwMTyQo/Xub7bHnj1qHPWjqi/+XYaWQ48Ro0IDI/wt2cXJpGYnn0yXCHvJFw+YPpa5cSlV0tw+6vfBfXbQvPix153MBDwSmcpzM+4jpUy9BmG5h1+w4hTygXZn3+8OjBoFUu9Jubpzb6G8MmneqDxH8= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060904224148.00ba7cf8@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 22:47:03 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: All this Steorn stuff.. In-Reply-To: <002201c6d082$ef2e4270$a0037841@xptower> References: <002201c6d082$ef2e4270$a0037841@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70644 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Hi Richard. "Essence" indeed... The essence is most likely the intuitive aspect (or part of the intuitive aspect) I was babbling about. Interesting about "culling". Back in Scotland, where I graduated, the culling was done by the university. 60% in the first year and a further 60% (of the remainder) in the second year. And as you say, of the remaining (exhausted) bunch, most were trying to get out of Engineering itself as soon as possible. Into management where the pay and prestige were far greater than those of the grunts manning the slide-rules (remember them?). P. At 07:33 PM 9/4/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >Philip wrote, > > >and this research is > >accomplished by our friend the Intellect. > >Howdy Philip, > >And a most reliable friend indeed. Couple intellect with desire and a true >"tinkerer" is created. My experience with mentoring a few Aggie undergrad >engineering majors give ample evidence that most youngsters should never >aspire to become engineers because they lack that intangible "essence" >required. The record number of freshmen engineering majors that opt out of >the engineering schools may appear to be an epidemic but is actually a >healthly culling. It is surprising to learn how many engineering grads >later do not aspire to become engineers. > >Richard > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 4 23:49:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k856nGQd003824; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 23:49:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k856nEmS003800; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 23:49:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 23:49:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 01:49:09 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70646 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: 5 HP Stirling Engine for Stationary Power Generation Status: O X-Status: Try this... http://www.stirling-tech.com/stirling/stirling.htm -john -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 6:05 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: MAHG at TeslaTech convention On 8/31/06, John Berry wrote: > Tempted to build one myself if someone can suggest an efficient low cost way > to turn heat into electricity, anyone know where to get Sterling engines > that can do about 1kw? Steam Turbine? Would these be similar to Stirling Engines? http://www.sce.com/PowerandEnvironment/BetteringEnergyEfficiencyPowerSources /SolarProject/ http://tinyurl.com/anxpt Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 5 05:26:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k85CQ28c008541; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 05:26:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k85CQ0nn008521; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 05:26:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 05:26:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 08:22:44 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: pi In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70648 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > > > The mathematically inclined might like to study this. > > http://members.ispwest.com/r-logan/narrative.html > > The possibility of "squaring the circle" was proven impossible in the late > 1800's. The quest to the square the circle, like the quest for "free > energy", is now considered the domain of cranks and quacks...but... > you never know... Hmmm....it may have been premature to judge the work as mathematically significant. In the section on Euler's equation he does not handle exponents correctly. He incorrectly concludes an expression of the form e^[(-a^i^2 + a^i^2)] is equal to (e^0)^i^2. It actually equals e^0 or 1 instead of -1 as he claims. Harry y From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 5 10:09:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k85H9dbV007871; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:09:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k85H9GU5007616; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:09:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:09:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.08,215,1154880000"; d="scan'208"; a="906293127:sNHT34660196" Message-ID: <44FDAF3A.8090109@iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 03:09:14 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Doctor is in References: <44EE7BFC.3030203@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <44EE7BFC.3030203@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70649 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Vortexians; > > Merlin is a computer program which predicts future events with an 80% > accuracy. One of the developers is George Hart, PhD physics. To get > the full story, truncate the URL at Merlin. Now if I can just figure > out how to listen to his sound file on Iran. > > I'm posting this to call your attention to this page, particularly the > Epistemology of the Occult. The rest of the page has some other > interesting comments too. > > http://www.accessbest.com/merlin/doctor_george.htm > > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > Astrology by computer. 80% accuracy is easy if you refuse to mention the predictions that failed or if your predictions are so vague that they could mean any thing. As for Iran I predict a war within three years, It takes that long to make plutonium and a little more uranium. If you have them you have a nuke. The rest is easy. If you have suicide bombers and a little lead you don't even need an explosive casing. We need to take out the nukes before they end up in the islamofascists hands. If not cities will die, loudly! Thats my first prediction. Prediction 2 An Indian or Eurasian city will be hit first. Prediction 3 A new class of Iranian sub with a conventional power plant but very advanced batteries and good sensors will make things very interesting in the Persian gulf and Indian ocean. Conventional subs are quieter than nuclear subs. Prediction 4 expect robots to figure large on any future battlefield. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 5 03:38:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k85Acah4017679; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 03:38:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k85AcVIi017643; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 03:38:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 03:38:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=ITJ2Uv9aiMJ4+wyB/Qabr817aWxRVKfaLjRAQMuWpnIYy9fme8xSZ/pvm3iBtvOgJFq3ZGDz8mJp896tKCfa1FH3FBBXgoRv+XN0ov6Y6ZENtIy7AgpfKtM6z3kCY/r9yMN7YPE53EXj1GitCcXj/q5OX52buf0Zo60SGBk5xwY= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060905062724.00ba7b68@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 06:36:50 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: All this Steorn stuff.. In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.1.20060904224148.00ba7cf8@pop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70647 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Good question, but at the tender age of 17, it would never in a million years have occurred to me to ask it. All there was, was a kind of underlying panic... At the time, these were government-funded institutions (don't know the details), so it could have been government that called the shots. As each student was funded (tuition, books and living grants) those who granted the money were quite selective in the first place - university entrance requirements - so when I come to think of it, the culling started much earlier. At the time, the number of graduates in the UK was about 10% of the number in Canada (perhaps North America) on a per capita population basis. It all seems so long ago... P. At 11:11 PM 9/4/2006 -0500, you wrote: >For a university's book to balance, I wonder how many students >need to quit or flunk after the first or second year. > > >Harry > > >Philip Winestone wrote: > > > Hi Richard. > > > > "Essence" indeed... The essence is most likely the intuitive aspect (or > > part of the intuitive aspect) I was babbling about. > > > > Interesting about "culling". Back in Scotland, where I graduated, the > > culling was done by the university. 60% in the first year and a further > > 60% (of the remainder) in the second year. And as you say, of the > > remaining (exhausted) bunch, most were trying to get out of Engineering > > itself as soon as possible. Into management where the pay and prestige > > were far greater than those of the grunts manning the slide-rules (remember > > them?). > > > > P. > > > > > > > > At 07:33 PM 9/4/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >> > >> Philip wrote, > >> > >>> and this research is > >>> accomplished by our friend the Intellect. > >> > >> Howdy Philip, > >> > >> And a most reliable friend indeed. Couple intellect with desire and a true > >> "tinkerer" is created. My experience with mentoring a few Aggie undergrad > >> engineering majors give ample evidence that most youngsters should never > >> aspire to become engineers because they lack that intangible "essence" > >> required. The record number of freshmen engineering majors that opt out of > >> the engineering schools may appear to be an epidemic but is actually a > >> healthly culling. It is surprising to learn how many engineering grads > >> later do not aspire to become engineers. > >> > >> Richard > >> > >> > >> > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 5 10:15:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k85HEu0S011976; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:14:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k85HErub011937; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:14:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:14:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.08,215,1154880000"; d="scan'208,217"; a="465206758:sNHT30030350" Message-ID: <44FDB085.7000904@iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 03:14:45 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm- corrected post Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080303020708020601050305" Resent-Message-ID: <_2wj2C.A.d6C.NCb_EB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70650 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080303020708020601050305 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your overlooking the problem of patents. The patent will not be allowed if the theory is disputed and it gets worse if there is no theory at all.Steorm wants the patents on this. Peer reviews wont help the reviewers must have hands on contact. They simply wont believe a paper. There are several ways to do what needs to be done. * Publish a peer review paper and a patent at the same time. The publicize both. That was what Fleischmann and Pons tried and it did not work. * The Steorm jury, This is the process used in the past with several disputed discoveries. Including the latitude contest, some early discoveries in medicine including immunization and safe blood donations. It is common in classified work where public papers etc would kill the projects secrecy. * Build a car or boat and dive or sail it past large audiences. The first submarine, the first steam train contests and of cause the Wright brothers. * Publish the design outside peer review and have hundreds duplicate the work. Paul C.W. Chu and his colleagues, the discoverers of high temperature Yittirium based superconductors followed this path in part. As far as I know they had to forgo the possibility of patents but got major awards and posts which is a compensation. [if I have this bit wrong tell me please.] Each has its challenges and it risks. A test requires several things: * The starting impulse, if required, must be filly controlled and measured. I.e. do you start it with a shove or not? * It must run a load. * All wires,etc must be visible labeled and reasonably tamper proof. If placed in an air tight box filled will it still run. This will get submarine designers interested. If it still runs if it is turned upside down it will get a lot of Nasa attention. The best test of a scam is to ask the two key questions. 1. How do they intend to make a buck from the scam? 2. How do they intend to escape prosecution if it is a scam. Can they run and hide somehow? Steorm is not asking for money in any way and I can't see how they could be pulling a scam. Where's the money in it if their not telling the truth? There is too much data on the people involved for them to up and run if it is a scam. A good conman never gets his photo all over the web. These guys seem to be real. There may be an error that they can't see but there does not seem to be scam. I doubt that the laws of thermodynamics are under any threat. Any demonstration of free energy is in effect simply a demonstration that we have not yet measured and named all of the energy fluxes in the the universe. Once we have a powerplant running in we can measure its out put from place to place,or over time or in proximity to other things. Any slight variations in output will allow us to map and then define the underlying energy flow. If it is 500 mW / cc [0.5 kilowatts/ litre] then I have about a hundred applications for it. One key question is whether it generates gyroscopic forces; that could make it hard to use on a vehicle. William Beaty wrote: >On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, Mark Goldes wrote: > > > >>That is great news! >> >>I have not listened to the interview. >> >>All the more likely they have done what they claim. >> >> > >If they just published detailed plans and construction info on their >website, (and if the device is relatively easy to get working,) there'd be >no need for this "jury" stuff. It looks like a publicity stunt, not a >legit tactic. On the other hand, their device could be like SMOT, and be >extremely difficult to work with. That would be a good reason *not* to >just post the plans and let everyone try building it. (The Pons-Fleichman >problem also involved a large number of failed replications.) > >But if secrecy wasn't their philosophy, they could just *say* that they'd >otherwise just release everything ...but that their device is finicky. > > >Where FE is concerned, secrecy has always been the major evil in the past. >The secrecy keeps onlookers from knowing whether it's a scam. The secrecy >sets up a catch-22 for selling OU products or even finding legit >investors. And I suspect that if any groups want to suppress the >discovery, inventor's secrecy is absolutly critical to successful >suppression. > >Watch closely. We'll see if I'm right again. > > >(((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb at amasci com http://amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair >Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > > --------------080303020708020601050305 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your overlooking the problem of patents. The patent will not be allowed if the theory is disputed and it gets worse if there is no theory at all.Steorm wants the patents on this. Peer reviews wont help the reviewers must have hands on contact. They simply wont believe a paper.
There are several ways to do what needs to be done.
  • Publish a peer review paper and a patent at the same time. The publicize both. That was what Fleischmann and Pons tried and it did not work.
  • The Steorm jury, This is the process used in the past with several disputed discoveries. Including the latitude contest, some early discoveries in medicine including immunization and safe blood donations. It is common in classified work where public papers etc would kill the projects secrecy.
  • Build a car or boat and dive or sail it past large audiences. The first submarine, the first  steam train contests and of cause the Wright brothers.
  • Publish the design outside peer review and have hundreds duplicate the work. Paul C.W. Chu and his colleagues, the discoverers of high temperature Yittirium based superconductors followed this path in part. As far as I know they had to forgo the possibility of patents but got major awards and posts which is a compensation. [if I have this bit wrong tell me please.]
Each has its challenges and it risks.
A test requires several things:
  • The starting impulse, if required, must be filly controlled and measured. I.e. do you start it with a shove or not?
  • It must run a load.
  • All wires,etc must be visible labeled and reasonably tamper proof. 
If placed in an air tight box filled will it still run. This will get submarine designers interested.
If it still runs if it is turned upside down it will get a lot of Nasa attention.

The best test of a scam is to ask the two key questions.
  1. How do they intend to make a buck from the scam?
  2. How do they intend to escape prosecution if it is a scam. Can they run and hide somehow?
Steorm is not asking for money in any way and I can't see how they could be pulling a scam. Where's the money in it if their not telling the truth?
There is too much data on the people involved for them to up and run if it is a scam. A good conman never gets his photo all over the web.

These guys seem to be real. There may be an error that they can't see but there does not seem to be scam.

I doubt that the laws of thermodynamics are under any threat. Any demonstration of free energy is in effect simply a demonstration that we have not yet measured and named all of the energy fluxes in the the universe. Once we have a powerplant running in we can measure its out put from place to place,or over time or in proximity to other things. Any slight variations in output will allow us to map and then define the underlying energy flow.

If it is 500 mW / cc [0.5 kilowatts/ litre] then I have about a hundred applications for it.
One key question is whether it generates gyroscopic forces; that could make it  hard to use on a vehicle.
 
William Beaty wrote: 
On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, Mark Goldes wrote:

  
That is great news!

I have not listened to the interview.

All the more likely they have done what they claim.
    

If they just published detailed plans and construction info on their
website, (and if the device is relatively easy to get working,) there'd be
no need for this "jury" stuff.  It looks like a publicity stunt, not a
legit tactic.  On the other hand, their device could be like SMOT, and be
extremely difficult to work with.  That would be a good reason *not* to
just post the plans and let everyone try building it.  (The Pons-Fleichman
problem also involved a large number of failed replications.)

But if secrecy wasn't their philosophy, they could just *say* that they'd
otherwise just release everything ...but that their device is finicky.


Where FE is concerned, secrecy has always been the major evil in the past.
The secrecy keeps onlookers from knowing whether it's a scam.  The secrecy
sets up a catch-22 for selling OU products or even finding legit
investors.  And I suspect that if any groups want to suppress the
discovery, inventor's secrecy is absolutly critical to successful
suppression.

Watch closely.   We'll see if I'm right again.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  425-222-5066    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
--------------080303020708020601050305-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 5 11:50:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k85Io132023812; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 11:50:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k85IlZ0V022231; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 11:47:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 11:47:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 14:42:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: All this Steorn stuff.. In-reply-to: <6.1.1.1.1.20060905062724.00ba7b68@pop> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70651 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Imagine expecting a recruit to pay to attend a military boot camp. Where students are expected to pay a tuition they actually are second class citizens compared to new recruits. I don't like economic theories and policies which portray the student as a "consumer". Harry Philip Winestone wrote: > Good question, but at the tender age of 17, it would never in a million > years have occurred to me to ask it. All there was, was a kind of > underlying panic... > > At the time, these were government-funded institutions (don't know the > details), so it could have been government that called the shots. As each > student was funded (tuition, books and living grants) those who granted the > money were quite selective in the first place - university entrance > requirements - so when I come to think of it, the culling started much > earlier. At the time, the number of graduates in the UK was about 10% of > the number in Canada (perhaps North America) on a per capita population basis. > > It all seems so long ago... > > P. > > > At 11:11 PM 9/4/2006 -0500, you wrote: >> For a university's book to balance, I wonder how many students >> need to quit or flunk after the first or second year. >> >> >> Harry >> >> >> Philip Winestone wrote: >> >>> Hi Richard. >>> >>> "Essence" indeed... The essence is most likely the intuitive aspect (or >>> part of the intuitive aspect) I was babbling about. >>> >>> Interesting about "culling". Back in Scotland, where I graduated, the >>> culling was done by the university. 60% in the first year and a further >>> 60% (of the remainder) in the second year. And as you say, of the >>> remaining (exhausted) bunch, most were trying to get out of Engineering >>> itself as soon as possible. Into management where the pay and prestige >>> were far greater than those of the grunts manning the slide-rules (remember >>> them?). >>> >>> P. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 5 22:31:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k865VgF1016943; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 22:31:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k865VePU016915; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 22:31:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 22:31:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44FE5D2A.1030000@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 00:31:22 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm- corrected post References: <44FDB085.7000904@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <44FDB085.7000904@iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70653 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: > Your overlooking the problem of patents. The patent will not be > allowed if the theory is disputed and it gets worse if there is no > theory at all. Oh? Read the Takashi motor patent. The claim of overunity was in the body of the patent, but not in the claims. Too bad it didn't work. My good drinking buddy, Bill looked at the patent, declared that he had come up with the same idea in the early '50's, and then asserted that it was "my patent." I quipped that I hadn't noticed his name any where on the patent. Later, when Takashi repented of his misguided assertion, I told Bill that AFAIK he could have the patent. > Steorm wants the patents on this. Peer reviews wont help the reviewers > must have hands on contact. They simply wont believe a paper. > There are several ways to do what needs to be done. Yah, like a working model that actually powers something. Till then, their just blowing smoke. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 6 03:56:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k86Au3jO020135; Wed, 6 Sep 2006 03:56:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k86AtuEf020068; Wed, 6 Sep 2006 03:55:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 03:55:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=qrXGXsHjj8FcsiZ1zKJzMB5sS+u7tRZ3xCwySHmYDw9tDNlxSsSwnjwL/cLU3k1C; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006936105519350@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 04:55:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401c444eb0536e70159e2359b90e2abd34350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.121 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70654 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Stardust, Carbides and Tom Gold's Primordal Oil Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm 5,246,550 "This invention relates to methods for methane conversion to products such as chemical feedstocks, transportable solids and liquids, or other combustible fuels, and particularly to processes for converting methane to magnesium tricarbide, hydrolysis of magnesium tricarbide to C.sub.3 H.sub.4 hydrocarbon, and condensation/dehydrocyclization of C.sub.3 H.sub.4 to benzene, or the like." "Methane is the major constituent of natural gas and is a significant domestic fuel and chemical feedstock resource in the United States and other countries. There has been strong interest in developing new processes for converting methane to other useful products of potentially higher value for energy production, chemical manufacture, etc. Furthermore, a significant fraction of the world supply of methane occurs as so-called "remote" gas. "Remote" gas is natural gas found at locations "distant" (1000 to more than 12,000 miles) from major markets. Significant quantities (>10 quads/yr) of remote gas are currently available dry or as a co-product of crude petroleum recover. High transportation costs exclude remote gas from most major international fuel and chemical markets unless significant volumetric energy densification can be economically achieved. Simple compression to form compressed natural gas (CNG) is economically viable for shipping distances up to about 1000 miles. Longer transport distances demand more severe processing such as direct liquefaction (LNG production) or chemical conversion to other liquids such as methanol or Fischer-Tropsch (FT) hydrocarbons. 5,782,952 IOW, If you add water and stir where Refractory "Stardust" forms planets you get oil and other hydrocarbons in them. The Refractory Nitride "Stardust" reacts with water to form NH3. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
5,246,550
"This invention relates to methods for methane conversion to products such as chemical feedstocks, transportable solids and liquids, or other combustible fuels, and particularly to processes for converting methane to magnesium tricarbide, hydrolysis of magnesium tricarbide to C.sub.3 H.sub.4 hydrocarbon, and condensation/dehydrocyclization of C.sub.3 H.sub.4 to benzene, or the like."

"Methane is the major constituent of natural gas and is a significant domestic fuel and chemical feedstock resource in the United States and other countries. There has been strong interest in developing new processes for converting methane to other useful products of potentially higher value for energy production, chemical manufacture, etc. Furthermore, a significant fraction of the world supply of methane occurs as so-called "remote" gas. "Remote" gas is natural gas found at locations "distant" (1000 to more than 12,000 miles) from major markets. Significant quantities (>10 quads/yr) of remote gas are currently available dry or as a co-product of crude petroleum recover. High transportation costs exclude remote gas from most major international fuel and chemical markets unless significant volumetric energy densification can be economically achieved. Simple compression to form compressed natural gas (CNG) is economically viable for shipping distances up to about 1000 miles. Longer transport distances demand more severe processing such as direct liquefaction (LNG production) or chemical conversion to other liquids such as methanol or Fischer-Tropsch (FT) hydrocarbons.
5,782,952
 
IOW,  If you add water and stir where Refractory  "Stardust" forms planets
you get oil and other hydrocarbons in them.
 
The Refractory Nitride "Stardust" reacts with water to form NH3.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 5 19:53:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k862r2EI005869; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 19:53:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k862r1eH005855; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 19:53:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 19:53:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=1r4LdZLnbwBdaKd3JDBUPnCwSsfcak7TpJVqFdwdrk/eULFD58HLtbWP93CoHhjq7EaQmFVHt/fu6UHJMT1d/k2WhKf3SuQwsFkf+qrcpEKZXRt5GaNW4EJxSfp0vLrUdkOgpbccDZkUeD9hq29OBx3Ve7Ad2RoKl3pxe05N3os= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060905223546.00ba7d00@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 22:41:06 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: All this Steorn stuff.. In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.1.20060905062724.00ba7b68@pop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70652 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Well, unfortunately, the university degree has become something of a consumer item; the key to happiness through better jobs, higher pay, etc. Just by paying to sit in classrooms and regurgitate what's been slapped on the board. (This applies more to those in the arts faculty than those in the more technical faculties, of course.) So you pays your money and you gets your degree and everybody is happy and proud. I'd better get off my soapbox now. If you want an interesting viewpoint on education and science (as separate entities), try reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, by Robert Pirsig. In my view, a must-read by all those who really think... P. At 02:42 PM 9/5/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Imagine expecting a recruit to pay to attend a military >boot camp. > >Where students are expected to pay a tuition they actually >are second class citizens compared to new recruits. > >I don't like economic theories and policies which portray the student >as a "consumer". > >Harry > > >Philip Winestone wrote: > > > Good question, but at the tender age of 17, it would never in a million > > years have occurred to me to ask it. All there was, was a kind of > > underlying panic... > > > > At the time, these were government-funded institutions (don't know the > > details), so it could have been government that called the shots. As each > > student was funded (tuition, books and living grants) those who granted the > > money were quite selective in the first place - university entrance > > requirements - so when I come to think of it, the culling started much > > earlier. At the time, the number of graduates in the UK was about 10% of > > the number in Canada (perhaps North America) on a per capita population > basis. > > > > It all seems so long ago... > > > > P. > > > > > > At 11:11 PM 9/4/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >> For a university's book to balance, I wonder how many students > >> need to quit or flunk after the first or second year. > >> > >> > >> Harry > >> > >> > >> Philip Winestone wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Richard. > >>> > >>> "Essence" indeed... The essence is most likely the intuitive aspect (or > >>> part of the intuitive aspect) I was babbling about. > >>> > >>> Interesting about "culling". Back in Scotland, where I graduated, the > >>> culling was done by the university. 60% in the first year and a further > >>> 60% (of the remainder) in the second year. And as you say, of the > >>> remaining (exhausted) bunch, most were trying to get out of Engineering > >>> itself as soon as possible. Into management where the pay and prestige > >>> were far greater than those of the grunts manning the slide-rules > (remember > >>> them?). > >>> > >>> P. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 6 12:41:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k86JeIKM025032; Wed, 6 Sep 2006 12:40:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k86JMprM013468; Wed, 6 Sep 2006 12:22:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 12:22:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=bFlw6eYIs4WgISZPjeLFG2rAJCKGEahwhd5A6BLljv1U6g0/85+jXr1Apt8N797gYSWbfd55cr7ZoHl/+x+fm3imtAa+qUhaNl2uVgrpF34zKnEZqMkFN/HZYKkBdpvNG13ITin8DHx/hy8eAe9jjK7vUiz8jeV8wFwqh0JKNNg= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 15:21:05 -0400 From: "john herman" To: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net, vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_257142_26700365.1157570465265" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70655 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Steoeoerm Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_257142_26700365.1157570465265 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vo, Has ANY person any knowing of real world BBGB about STEOEREEROREMER of or of the like? Leave us one and all write to STEOREOME and ask: Can you provide information? Otherwise, do any Vo have some real information about nearly ANY topic? NOT: politics woo woo YES: Real world vortex and or energy.... ------=_Part_257142_26700365.1157570465265 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Dear Vo,
 
    Has ANY person any knowing of real world
BBGB about STEOEREEROREMER
 
     of  or of the like?
 
      Leave us one and all write to STEOREOME
 
      and ask:
 
      Can you provide information?
 
       Otherwise,
 
 do any Vo have some real information about
nearly ANY topic?
 
    NOT:
 
    politics
    woo woo
 
   YES:
 
     Real world vortex and or energy....
 
 
------=_Part_257142_26700365.1157570465265-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 7 07:34:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k87EXwLV003380; Thu, 7 Sep 2006 07:33:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k87EXtsW003358; Thu, 7 Sep 2006 07:33:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 07:33:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=tW/XCDsJP2/cjUekzJe/nozCtHIb6aFZneHzBR5vGN4HzqjGtTD4/59TT0+kyXfDP4qo+oyywW0a8Da6JynBcVgFZPliG180flzTprgEJ/RL0VbKZv/gg+mj+/d3LHJkwSiwgJpgvhbkGbYx7JH83/1NJ/umPjwOeLZg2cc9Lh4= ; Message-ID: <038001c6d28a$a31e2760$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: , , , Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 10:33:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <5q_yBD.A.K0.S3CAFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70656 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Emdrive Engine X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Group, September 2006 The Engineer Online : http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticleID=295931 SPR's EMDrive : Antigravity... or very close to it. BBGB (Blow by Grinding Blow) or,, as close to enough information was herein supplied from picture and description for some of us to attempt a replication. There is also a patent, but I do not yet have that number. I thought I should just pass this along, all that I have.. The short description is : an unbalanced 2 gm force- derived from : a 2.45 GHz microwave- bouncing back and forth within a resonant chamber- that is wider on one it's ends.. The developer is a UK company SPR, director is Roger Shawyer. Nasa is sceptical but there are reports of seven (7) independent reviews by : BAE Systems, EADS Astrium, Siemens, and the IEE. And... DTI ( a UK government agency?) has awarded the company 125,00 pounds for the prototype, part of a three year 250,000 pounds Program. For Space Propulsion (said to reduce the Mars mission from 9 to 3 months, etc.) Additional links: 2004 The Engineer Online http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/266633/Defying%20gravity.htm EUREKA DECEMBER 2002 FEATURE STORY (plus a 2004 update) A force for space with no reaction & a perfect PICTURE http://www.shelleys.demon.co.uk/fdec02em.htm A paper giving the theory and a summary of the experimental work is available free by e mail application to TheEmdrive@aol.com , giving name and affiliation. Note that they intend to increase the Q factor by orders of magnitude in the future. Cheers, Colin Quinney From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 7 19:50:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k882oTNf001409; Thu, 7 Sep 2006 19:50:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k882oQDl001390; Thu, 7 Sep 2006 19:50:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 19:50:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns jr." To: Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 19:50:24 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_04A5_01C6D2B6.DBD7ED80" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70657 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_04A5_01C6D2B6.DBD7ED80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I’ve captured two interviews of Sean McCarthy from Steorn and removed the interviewers( Steve Krivit and the SteornPower.com person who seems to be anonymous), then reversed them ( http://www.reversespeech.com ) for your entertainment: http://HoytStearns.com/Reversals There were quite a few interesting reversals in the first interview, but nothing to suggest any new information on the technology or dishonesty. I only listened for a few minutes, though. There’s no doubt to me that reverse speech works. Perhaps some reversals are in Gaelic :-) . I forwarded the information to David Oats, who is an expert on interpreting reverse speech. He may post his results on his ReverseSpeech website. Regards, Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US http://HoytStearns.com ------=_NextPart_000_04A5_01C6D2B6.DBD7ED80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I’ve captured two interviews of Sean McCarthy from Steorn = and removed the interviewers( Steve Krivit and the SteornPower.com person who seems = to be anonymous),

then reversed them ( http://www.reversespeech.com) for your entertainment:

 

http://HoytStearns.com/Reversal= s

 

There were quite a few interesting reversals in the first = interview, but nothing to suggest any new information on the technology or = dishonesty.

I only listened for a few minutes, = though.

 

There’s no doubt to me that reverse speech works.  Perhaps some reversals are in = Gaelic J .

 

I forwarded the information to David Oats, who is an expert on interpreting reverse speech.  = He may post his results on his ReverseSpeech = website.

 

 

Regards,

 

Hoyt Stearns

Scottsdale, Arizona US

 

http://HoytStearns.com

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_04A5_01C6D2B6.DBD7ED80-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 7 22:55:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k885slaE024985; Thu, 7 Sep 2006 22:54:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k885shSk024939; Thu, 7 Sep 2006 22:54:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 22:54:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45010577.60409@usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 00:53:59 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70658 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hoyt A. Stearns jr. wrote: > I’ve captured two interviews of Sean McCarthy from Steorn and removed > the interviewers( Steve Krivit and the SteornPower.com person who > seems to be anonymous), > > then reversed them ( http://www.reversespeech.com > ) for your entertainment: > > http://HoytStearns.com/Reversals > I listened to the reverse speech man when he and Art Bell were on speaking terms, and found his claims interesting. I clicked on one of the links with a .wav ending. I got a message saying that I had done an illegal operation. I had to restart the computer. Do tell us what you think you heard. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 8 02:56:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k889uZAF016659; Fri, 8 Sep 2006 02:56:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k889uUYJ016593; Fri, 8 Sep 2006 02:56:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 02:56:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=GH9cXHh31AE/DAAL74bbrwSXh8z3Pd4yQKVyuYWmQLd4kjjwC5RtHO1mf4hpsDFgbjzDDux9t4beLSD2LVbGkeGJiWdbg8k0R6CimbcKHcgRn2nJOAcUJqLHd0Rg4SappU2gnjfIfziLSnOn9dElP9IaHIqfc5QCBkjTE60Bq4M= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: "'Colin Quinney'" , , , , Subject: RE: [Vo]: Emdrive Engine Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 10:56:17 +0100 Message-ID: <006a01c6d32d$091fb5e0$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: <038001c6d28a$a31e2760$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Thread-Index: AcbSi0qR57EEX4D2QgyLlz4Q06vIngAoUY6g Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70659 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: RO X-Status: Colin, Try http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/ElectromagneticPropulsion.htm I've a section on Shawyer and a short paper by Andreas Rathke of ESA. Remi. -----Original Message----- From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin@rogers.com] Sent: 07 September 2006 15:34 To: blazelabs@yahoogroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com; greenglow@yahoogroups.com; newelectrogravity@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Vo]: Emdrive Engine Group, September 2006 The Engineer Online : http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticleID=295931 SPR's EMDrive : Antigravity... or very close to it. BBGB (Blow by Grinding Blow) or,, as close to enough information was herein supplied from picture and description for some of us to attempt a replication. There is also a patent, but I do not yet have that number. I thought I should just pass this along, all that I have.. The short description is : an unbalanced 2 gm force- derived from : a 2.45 GHz microwave- bouncing back and forth within a resonant chamber- that is wider on one it's ends.. The developer is a UK company SPR, director is Roger Shawyer. Nasa is sceptical but there are reports of seven (7) independent reviews by : BAE Systems, EADS Astrium, Siemens, and the IEE. And... DTI ( a UK government agency?) has awarded the company 125,00 pounds for the prototype, part of a three year 250,000 pounds Program. For Space Propulsion (said to reduce the Mars mission from 9 to 3 months, etc.) Additional links: 2004 The Engineer Online http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/266633/Defying%20gravity.htm EUREKA DECEMBER 2002 FEATURE STORY (plus a 2004 update) A force for space with no reaction & a perfect PICTURE http://www.shelleys.demon.co.uk/fdec02em.htm A paper giving the theory and a summary of the experimental work is available free by e mail application to TheEmdrive@aol.com , giving name and affiliation. Note that they intend to increase the Q factor by orders of magnitude in the future. Cheers, Colin Quinney From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 8 11:11:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k88IBMCf026039; Fri, 8 Sep 2006 11:11:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k88IBJf4025969; Fri, 8 Sep 2006 11:11:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 11:11:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=J4Z+zuNrj6/m2H5BaRTUPzDP3ZFk0NvK0W7e81BtVzBLyK5h/tJu94iiERg0a8nIUYtVQeL4maB/Yv1+IrHcIq+gHNhduMQTp7FiXJjcBX36Gcw3qkCoPb1bQ9DaWop42eTxFjk0jU/Nhmhg7vzPll7Zsrqm8jLEjVcSveUTH3c= ; Message-ID: <001901c6d372$2de36e90$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <000c01c6d080$3381be50$a0037841@xptower> Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 11:11:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70660 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Pitkinen magnetics paper Status: O X-Status: BlankThis paper which Richard cites mentions - once again - the fabulous Roshchin/Godin results from Russia. 'Fabulous' is used in the original sense of fable-related. Pitanken is about as far-out as it gets in quasi-legit-Fissix... you might say his ideas are "representable as a 4-surface in 8-dimensional space, along with the notion of many-sheeted spacetime, forced by this incredible hypothesis, implying numerous new physics, including a few gravitational anomalies..." or something to that effect. Jerry Decker has mentioned this Roshchin/Godin claim several times on his site; and as being related to the original Schappeller work from which Searl got his ideas, then Searl and then Hamel up in Canada. Frolov is also mentioned. Talk about a "whacha gonna do when they come for you?"... bad-boys-lineup - only like some disappointed investors, you may be be trying to pick out the one who is NOT the con-man who fleeced your retirement account, instead of the other way around. http://www.keelynet.com/indexdec1205.htm also a better report: http://www.rexresearch.com/roschin/roschin.htm The Roshchin and Godin machine supposedly produces a seven-degree drop in temperature in the area around the electrical generator as it operates, "suggesting an unusual fulfillment of an energy conservation modality." Catch-22 *as always* is that there is ZERO independent verification, despite numerous inquiries ... Hot air about cold air....?? US Patent 6,822,361 - "Orbiting multi-rotor homopolar system," has been awarded for their technology. It is assigned to Energy & Propulsion Systems of Valencia CA, a company which may have been deliberately named to share the acronymic goodwill of Engineered Parking Systems of Valencia CA. http://tinyurl.com/hdp4w or http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r=1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=6822361.PN.&OS=PN/6822361&RS=PN/6822361 As always, we are ever-hopeful for the truth in this kind of thing, the real breakthrough ... yet are periodically checking to see if the billfold is still there. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 8 17:21:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k890KXoi022367; Fri, 8 Sep 2006 17:20:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k890KWJq022355; Fri, 8 Sep 2006 17:20:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 17:20:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=jrod/VItTmvwCw3EJWG/v09FD91KiQUYaNrgW3lYIvfKnk+itISKzDRfGcLuhRYX; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <19399434.1157761229880.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 20:20:29 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: Vortex Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c5dda583460deeba0f5e8bd0bb21c8e482586f7033bb40e26350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.50 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70662 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Steve Jones placed on paid leave Status: RO X-Status: See: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645199800,00.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 8 17:46:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k890kWu6003470; Fri, 8 Sep 2006 17:46:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k890kUoH003446; Fri, 8 Sep 2006 17:46:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 17:46:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=daZ706d87LaHXCFUaMlbRi8Bvdua8RIuuqXIRhyNQCdrVzGyLpZ0o3ZV3/AaVnkJGBjkEGmpuPZCXsGWjqRVfCyUurDGh/dCZKE/KymrZb5Mkuwh7o/ToXtjItRO73bHiTJ6u+7Q1AXV727WhRbpmkh0wuJb4nEVm1LnH01eY7k= ; Message-ID: <000e01c6d3a9$6293e070$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "Vortex" References: <19399434.1157761229880.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 17:46:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70663 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Steve Jones placed on paid leave Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" Steve Jones placed on paid leave > http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645199800,00.html There's a certain bit of ... what? ...not exactly irony, but a kind of poetic quirkiness in a guy who "should have" bucked the mainstream, and bought into one controversial subject (LENR), which is true --- but in defiance of rationality, instead bucks the mainstream by buying into another fabulous hypothesis which certainly is ... well, let's say only that it is closer to being completely false than completely true (to use a Clintonism) ... even if it could be partly true ... but his total acceptance of the complete conspiracy package in all the improbable detail ... is mind-boggling (even if there could be elements of truth is parts of the hypothesized "official neglect", Mossad meddling, or sloppy cover-up) ... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 8 13:40:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k88Ke1pB030317; Fri, 8 Sep 2006 13:40:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k88KTw3U024345; Fri, 8 Sep 2006 13:29:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 13:29:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=nVCAGM+HIDNK3nluoye5SyBAVXsVNaiGRpA6XygODGqkQJlBHHxEZNY5VHwY4OsrunCVoRGgOQw3ROeVfaQQ4q+hDzSrnjpk5TRgWCOuSBOIBLlMN5cuiTnO7SFyZDjxCFNnh0Dhvt7XxfYD75MHIbc+YgbGW6qRT2/DQth9Fcs= ; Message-ID: <06ba01c6d385$81e70570$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: "Remi Cornwall" , , , , References: <006a01c6d32d$091fb5e0$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 16:29:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70661 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Emdrive Engine X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Hi Remi, Thank you. I greatly appreciated your response. In that paper on your web site, you linked to a paper by Andreas Rathke- who is a director of Special Projects at the European Space Agency.. The topic was in reference to the EMDrive device. I'm just an observer.., but I am sorry to say that I did not agree with his "conclusion". 'Microwave spacecraft propulsion by a closed resonant cavity' http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/MicrowaveEMProp.pdf .. wherein he states : "Having found, that the principle of the microwave engine proposed by SPR relies on a misconception, it comes as a surprise, that a prototype of the engine nevertheless generates appreciable thrust. Possible explanations for this are however easily spotted: On the one hand air expelled from the microwave cavity could generate the thrust. On the other hand the apparatus could acquire a charge during the experiment, which would then generate a Coulomb force and invalidate the force measurement. Also a direct coupling between the microwave generator and the measurement device needs to be excluded. In conclusion the recently proposed concept of microwave propulsion by a closed resonant cavity violates fundamental principles of physics, i.e. momentum and energy conservation and is hence obviously not feasible." = = = I do not understand the kind of thinking that dismisses experimental evidence because it violates a theory we were taught. Yes there may be artefact. Probably is, in fact. And yes the theory may be flawed. (but **if** it turns out to be real... then find a theory that fits.) He said that the possible artefacts needed to be excluded but nowhere mentions doing that. He is the director of Special projects at the ESA. Did he not assign it to a working group? He effectively dismissed the whole thing because.. it cannot exist. And yet he had a working model in front of him, otherwise why did he state (Quote:) "the prototype generated appreciable thrust". ? I have heard that the EMDrive folks used a digital scale to measure the force. That's a no-no-, agreed... but.. has anyone test measured it with a mechanical scale? = = = Cheers, Colin From: "Remi Cornwall" remicornwall@yahoo.co.uk > Colin, > Try http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/ElectromagneticPropulsion.htm > > I've a section on Shawyer and a short paper by Andreas Rathke of ESA. > Remi. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin@rogers.com] > Sent: 07 September 2006 15:34 > To: blazelabs@yahoogroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com; > greenglow@yahoogroups.com; newelectrogravity@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Vo]: Emdrive Engine > > Group, > > September 2006 The Engineer Online : > http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticleID=295931 > > SPR's EMDrive : > > > Antigravity... or very close to it. > BBGB (Blow by Grinding Blow) or,, as close to enough information was > herein > supplied from picture and description for some of us to attempt a > replication. There is also a patent, but I do not yet have that number. I > thought I should just pass this along, all that I have.. > > The short description is : an unbalanced 2 gm force- derived from : a > 2.45 > > GHz microwave- bouncing back and forth within a resonant chamber- that > is > wider on one it's ends.. > > The developer is a UK company SPR, director is Roger Shawyer. > > > Nasa is sceptical but there are reports of seven (7) independent reviews > by > : BAE Systems, EADS Astrium, Siemens, and the IEE. > And... DTI ( a UK government agency?) has awarded the company 125,00 > pounds > > for the prototype, part of a three year 250,000 pounds Program. For Space > Propulsion (said to reduce the Mars mission from 9 to 3 months, etc.) > > Additional links: > > 2004 The Engineer Online > http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/266633/Defying%20gravity.htm > > EUREKA DECEMBER 2002 FEATURE STORY (plus a 2004 update) > A force for space with no reaction & a perfect PICTURE > http://www.shelleys.demon.co.uk/fdec02em.htm > A paper giving the theory and a summary of the experimental work is > available free by e mail application to TheEmdrive@aol.com , giving name > and > > affiliation. > > Note that they intend to increase the Q factor by orders of magnitude in > the > > future. > > Cheers, > Colin Quinney > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 9 07:46:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k89EkdIF032120; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 07:46:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k89EkbOj032094; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 07:46:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 07:46:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=FHXf8sidb3l7LGd4poxaAzj5JaC97Qq+7pJIndYy2HytB3PcXfQEbwZBJvzNKnmL9vMcnbBPEhzvQejC6DRkkvL6s9c9qowSw+6V/n0Nk+TsZ9JauY4i/JGmh1vJXLSu63fZ/hfvvOdGYFnU/dpWnlb+4E4s0K/00TIqeW1Uzf4= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 15:46:25 +0100 Message-ID: <008501c6d41e$bb1d6110$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: <06ba01c6d385$81e70570$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Thread-Index: AcbThYJ9LlP4p3GcTEG103ScpOU6sAAlPBGA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70664 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: Colin, Extraordinary claims, extraordinary evidence... There's an art to doing science. One has the knack or not... Stick with hardball experimental fact (peer reviewed facts) not conjecture if you want to engineer something new. Eg. the stuff I do, independent flux criterion is old-old EM, EPR/Bell/Aspect has been checked to 46 standard deviations, electromagnetic momentum in static induction cases pretty well known and checked. Then apply logic to take the next step... (I propose a paradigm shift here: The Engineer as the Theoretician - both mathematical modelling and the design of experiments to enter new realms). Now there are certain things which beggar belief, holies of holies that if you are going to challenge them require a mechanism. They require intellectual input to say just how that *is so*, to open a new door, but we do that step by step at a time without Mathmagical Fizziks (unless you are genuinely gifted at it and have a track record like Dirac, Pauli, Feynman, Schwinger) ---- *Theory based on hardball facts*. Use Occam's Razor for goddam sake! (I like Occam, he lived just down the A3 out of London other side of the M25 way back in the 11th C on the way to Surrey Uni. Hail Occam!!). Now when people start talking about violating the *1st Law* it can only mean: 1) The constants of nature have changed over the timescale of your experiment. 2) That some new force has been found. ((Incidentally with the Steorn stuff why, if some new force has been found, would it couple exclusively to magnetic forms of energy? Why not light, heat, phonons? One can bet if some new process had been discovered *it would generate heat* - processes happening on the micro-level would tend to get randomised and end up that way - take the heat of radioactive decay.)) Similar concerns arise with violations of momentum or momenergy (in Relativistic parlance) conservation. Break momentum conservation and one has automatically broken the 1st law in other inertial frames unless there is something to take up the 'slack'. That something could be an 'ether' try: Graham and Lahoz, "Observation of static electromagnetic angular momentum in vacuo", Nature Vol. 285, 154 (1980). It won't be ZPE: "Comment on Zero-point Fluctuations and The Cosmological Constant", Michel F.C., Astrophysical Journal, 466:660-667, (1996). Because that stuff is based on a false premise. Period. (See the paper). Now as regards theory of EM waves and how they exchange momentum and angular momentum, an error here would propagate ('xcuse the pun) into other areas of physics to make it obvious that standard EM theory was incorrect despite billions of person-hours of physicists and engineers. Regards, my two-cents worth. Remi. P.S. It sort of reminds me of radical student protests: yeah, let's throw out the establishment. Yeah! Let's abolish the system! Yeah let's abolish erudition! Let's talk in grunts. Abolish reasoned debate so old fashioned! Abolish logic! Abolish speech. Grunt, growl, snarl, hiss. You get the picture. -----Original Message----- From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin@rogers.com] Sent: 08 September 2006 21:30 To: Remi Cornwall; blazelabs@yahoogroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com; greenglow@yahoogroups.com; newelectrogravity@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Emdrive Engine Hi Remi, Thank you. I greatly appreciated your response. In that paper on your web site, you linked to a paper by Andreas Rathke- who is a director of Special Projects at the European Space Agency.. The topic was in reference to the EMDrive device. I'm just an observer.., but I am sorry to say that I did not agree with his "conclusion". 'Microwave spacecraft propulsion by a closed resonant cavity' http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/MicrowaveEMProp.pdf .. wherein he states : "Having found, that the principle of the microwave engine proposed by SPR relies on a misconception, it comes as a surprise, that a prototype of the engine nevertheless generates appreciable thrust. Possible explanations for this are however easily spotted: On the one hand air expelled from the microwave cavity could generate the thrust. On the other hand the apparatus could acquire a charge during the experiment, which would then generate a Coulomb force and invalidate the force measurement. Also a direct coupling between the microwave generator and the measurement device needs to be excluded. In conclusion the recently proposed concept of microwave propulsion by a closed resonant cavity violates fundamental principles of physics, i.e. momentum and energy conservation and is hence obviously not feasible." = = = I do not understand the kind of thinking that dismisses experimental evidence because it violates a theory we were taught. Yes there may be artefact. Probably is, in fact. And yes the theory may be flawed. (but **if** it turns out to be real... then find a theory that fits.) He said that the possible artefacts needed to be excluded but nowhere mentions doing that. He is the director of Special projects at the ESA. Did he not assign it to a working group? He effectively dismissed the whole thing because.. it cannot exist. And yet he had a working model in front of him, otherwise why did he state (Quote:) "the prototype generated appreciable thrust". ? I have heard that the EMDrive folks used a digital scale to measure the force. That's a no-no-, agreed... but.. has anyone test measured it with a mechanical scale? = = = Cheers, Colin From: "Remi Cornwall" remicornwall@yahoo.co.uk > Colin, > Try http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/ElectromagneticPropulsion.htm > > I've a section on Shawyer and a short paper by Andreas Rathke of ESA. > Remi. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin@rogers.com] > Sent: 07 September 2006 15:34 > To: blazelabs@yahoogroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com; > greenglow@yahoogroups.com; newelectrogravity@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Vo]: Emdrive Engine > > Group, > > September 2006 The Engineer Online : > http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticleID=295931 > > SPR's EMDrive : > > > Antigravity... or very close to it. > BBGB (Blow by Grinding Blow) or,, as close to enough information was > herein > supplied from picture and description for some of us to attempt a > replication. There is also a patent, but I do not yet have that number. I > thought I should just pass this along, all that I have.. > > The short description is : an unbalanced 2 gm force- derived from : a > 2.45 > > GHz microwave- bouncing back and forth within a resonant chamber- that > is > wider on one it's ends.. > > The developer is a UK company SPR, director is Roger Shawyer. > > > Nasa is sceptical but there are reports of seven (7) independent reviews > by > : BAE Systems, EADS Astrium, Siemens, and the IEE. > And... DTI ( a UK government agency?) has awarded the company 125,00 > pounds > > for the prototype, part of a three year 250,000 pounds Program. For Space > Propulsion (said to reduce the Mars mission from 9 to 3 months, etc.) > > Additional links: > > 2004 The Engineer Online > http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/266633/Defying%20gravity.htm > > EUREKA DECEMBER 2002 FEATURE STORY (plus a 2004 update) > A force for space with no reaction & a perfect PICTURE > http://www.shelleys.demon.co.uk/fdec02em.htm > A paper giving the theory and a summary of the experimental work is > available free by e mail application to TheEmdrive@aol.com , giving name > and > > affiliation. > > Note that they intend to increase the Q factor by orders of magnitude in > the > > future. > > Cheers, > Colin Quinney > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 9 07:55:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k89Et4Du004877; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 07:55:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k89Et1MJ004830; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 07:55:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 07:55:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=MA5R7bLgZqydPt4vBNlgqtGPgwnWvLVatKGqDjs/kI12zQG0V5gPu9k1EcDnA9VStoUd8votyJqMiTm5Kuw19EXPHN8GVHWjRJWMdcqQU8sYxr8w6/8bwvlsdObY2hlU7eKEzIdyqPA/tKlqmdc6ba3GkUxOXOlGDiolRuFCz/k= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Steve Jones placed on paid leave Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 15:54:51 +0100 Message-ID: <008601c6d41f$e8c5ce30$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: <000e01c6d3a9$6293e070$6401a8c0@NuDell> Thread-Index: AcbTqdHVKoYujocHSluXA5R6Mawi0AAdTYVg Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70665 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We're cosseted in the West. We can entertain all kind of decadent irrational beliefs and not face the facts: you're better off over here than over there. See how far you'd get doing FE research or just speaking out in an oil rich middle-eastern country. As citizens we should fight to hold that which came dearly to us: Number 1, freedom of speech and civil liberties. Challenge it even in the most banal of cases to prove a point and to educate those on the left or right who believe a more restrictive society cures many aliments and besides, *it's only short-term expedient.* (The road to hell and all that...) -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: 09 September 2006 01:46 To: Vortex Subject: [Vo]: Re: Steve Jones placed on paid leave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" Steve Jones placed on paid leave > http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645199800,00.html There's a certain bit of ... what? ...not exactly irony, but a kind of poetic quirkiness in a guy who "should have" bucked the mainstream, and bought into one controversial subject (LENR), which is true --- but in defiance of rationality, instead bucks the mainstream by buying into another fabulous hypothesis which certainly is ... well, let's say only that it is closer to being completely false than completely true (to use a Clintonism) ... even if it could be partly true ... but his total acceptance of the complete conspiracy package in all the improbable detail ... is mind-boggling (even if there could be elements of truth is parts of the hypothesized "official neglect", Mossad meddling, or sloppy cover-up) ... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 9 07:56:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k89Eu5l4005704; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 07:56:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k89Eu2l2005661; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 07:56:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 07:56:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=GOqOevHVEWiD7omvh24zCs2QJMmohvC2lwt/JjTbvjhwnXLoef50yqNJR8o2t6P7NnkTuTSZtKLcRF83JR5HBo05oL8DGknCpaoztjySKJUfm4rRJ0hn1ISPTqlFO2WxmKy4cq52xCm3wwaQGtbqPUQwErOBb67fmFo/mLKNhBQ= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: EMdrive (with subject line) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 15:55:51 +0100 Message-ID: <008701c6d420$0d4a8f70$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: <008501c6d41e$bb1d6110$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> Thread-Index: AcbThYJ9LlP4p3GcTEG103ScpOU6sAAlPBGAAAFi/lA= Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70666 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Remi Cornwall [mailto:remicornwall@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: 09 September 2006 15:46 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Colin, Extraordinary claims, extraordinary evidence... There's an art to doing science. One has the knack or not... Stick with hardball experimental fact (peer reviewed facts) not conjecture if you want to engineer something new. Eg. the stuff I do, independent flux criterion is old-old EM, EPR/Bell/Aspect has been checked to 46 standard deviations, electromagnetic momentum in static induction cases pretty well known and checked. Then apply logic to take the next step... (I propose a paradigm shift here: The Engineer as the Theoretician - both mathematical modelling and the design of experiments to enter new realms). Now there are certain things which beggar belief, holies of holies that if you are going to challenge them require a mechanism. They require intellectual input to say just how that *is so*, to open a new door, but we do that step by step at a time without Mathmagical Fizziks (unless you are genuinely gifted at it and have a track record like Dirac, Pauli, Feynman, Schwinger) ---- *Theory based on hardball facts*. Use Occam's Razor for goddam sake! (I like Occam, he lived just down the A3 out of London other side of the M25 way back in the 11th C on the way to Surrey Uni. Hail Occam!!). Now when people start talking about violating the *1st Law* it can only mean: 1) The constants of nature have changed over the timescale of your experiment. 2) That some new force has been found. ((Incidentally with the Steorn stuff why, if some new force has been found, would it couple exclusively to magnetic forms of energy? Why not light, heat, phonons? One can bet if some new process had been discovered *it would generate heat* - processes happening on the micro-level would tend to get randomised and end up that way - take the heat of radioactive decay.)) Similar concerns arise with violations of momentum or momenergy (in Relativistic parlance) conservation. Break momentum conservation and one has automatically broken the 1st law in other inertial frames unless there is something to take up the 'slack'. That something could be an 'ether' try: Graham and Lahoz, "Observation of static electromagnetic angular momentum in vacuo", Nature Vol. 285, 154 (1980). It won't be ZPE: "Comment on Zero-point Fluctuations and The Cosmological Constant", Michel F.C., Astrophysical Journal, 466:660-667, (1996). Because that stuff is based on a false premise. Period. (See the paper). Now as regards theory of EM waves and how they exchange momentum and angular momentum, an error here would propagate ('xcuse the pun) into other areas of physics to make it obvious that standard EM theory was incorrect despite billions of person-hours of physicists and engineers. Regards, my two-cents worth. Remi. P.S. It sort of reminds me of radical student protests: yeah, let's throw out the establishment. Yeah! Let's abolish the system! Yeah let's abolish erudition! Let's talk in grunts. Abolish reasoned debate so old fashioned! Abolish logic! Abolish speech. Grunt, growl, snarl, hiss. You get the picture. -----Original Message----- From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin@rogers.com] Sent: 08 September 2006 21:30 To: Remi Cornwall; blazelabs@yahoogroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com; greenglow@yahoogroups.com; newelectrogravity@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Emdrive Engine Hi Remi, Thank you. I greatly appreciated your response. In that paper on your web site, you linked to a paper by Andreas Rathke- who is a director of Special Projects at the European Space Agency.. The topic was in reference to the EMDrive device. I'm just an observer.., but I am sorry to say that I did not agree with his "conclusion". 'Microwave spacecraft propulsion by a closed resonant cavity' http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/MicrowaveEMProp.pdf .. wherein he states : "Having found, that the principle of the microwave engine proposed by SPR relies on a misconception, it comes as a surprise, that a prototype of the engine nevertheless generates appreciable thrust. Possible explanations for this are however easily spotted: On the one hand air expelled from the microwave cavity could generate the thrust. On the other hand the apparatus could acquire a charge during the experiment, which would then generate a Coulomb force and invalidate the force measurement. Also a direct coupling between the microwave generator and the measurement device needs to be excluded. In conclusion the recently proposed concept of microwave propulsion by a closed resonant cavity violates fundamental principles of physics, i.e. momentum and energy conservation and is hence obviously not feasible." = = = I do not understand the kind of thinking that dismisses experimental evidence because it violates a theory we were taught. Yes there may be artefact. Probably is, in fact. And yes the theory may be flawed. (but **if** it turns out to be real... then find a theory that fits.) He said that the possible artefacts needed to be excluded but nowhere mentions doing that. He is the director of Special projects at the ESA. Did he not assign it to a working group? He effectively dismissed the whole thing because.. it cannot exist. And yet he had a working model in front of him, otherwise why did he state (Quote:) "the prototype generated appreciable thrust". ? I have heard that the EMDrive folks used a digital scale to measure the force. That's a no-no-, agreed... but.. has anyone test measured it with a mechanical scale? = = = Cheers, Colin From: "Remi Cornwall" remicornwall@yahoo.co.uk > Colin, > Try http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/ElectromagneticPropulsion.htm > > I've a section on Shawyer and a short paper by Andreas Rathke of ESA. > Remi. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin@rogers.com] > Sent: 07 September 2006 15:34 > To: blazelabs@yahoogroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com; > greenglow@yahoogroups.com; newelectrogravity@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Vo]: Emdrive Engine > > Group, > > September 2006 The Engineer Online : > http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticleID=295931 > > SPR's EMDrive : > > > Antigravity... or very close to it. > BBGB (Blow by Grinding Blow) or,, as close to enough information was > herein > supplied from picture and description for some of us to attempt a > replication. There is also a patent, but I do not yet have that number. I > thought I should just pass this along, all that I have.. > > The short description is : an unbalanced 2 gm force- derived from : a > 2.45 > > GHz microwave- bouncing back and forth within a resonant chamber- that > is > wider on one it's ends.. > > The developer is a UK company SPR, director is Roger Shawyer. > > > Nasa is sceptical but there are reports of seven (7) independent reviews > by > : BAE Systems, EADS Astrium, Siemens, and the IEE. > And... DTI ( a UK government agency?) has awarded the company 125,00 > pounds > > for the prototype, part of a three year 250,000 pounds Program. For Space > Propulsion (said to reduce the Mars mission from 9 to 3 months, etc.) > > Additional links: > > 2004 The Engineer Online > http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/266633/Defying%20gravity.htm > > EUREKA DECEMBER 2002 FEATURE STORY (plus a 2004 update) > A force for space with no reaction & a perfect PICTURE > http://www.shelleys.demon.co.uk/fdec02em.htm > A paper giving the theory and a summary of the experimental work is > available free by e mail application to TheEmdrive@aol.com , giving name > and > > affiliation. > > Note that they intend to increase the Q factor by orders of magnitude in > the > > future. > > Cheers, > Colin Quinney > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 9 09:22:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k89GMPsI023966; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 09:22:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k89GMOT0023940; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 09:22:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 09:22:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index; b=gRKpnLCvFdRuaQxqDovFbTyJuG/1zcCDSRRzA5USGg6IFfZyMUO9hpWOLl15urCxiqCzvGjnnHSST+Ica3TP/nsxFNBtfGk/2rEV0vwk96IvMlm0w2UFeglhFWXd7XWGN6RD+4BZYwbovi8lz9B4NGZJu/S8J5oNegChZaLX0Lc= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 17:22:02 +0100 Message-ID: <008d01c6d42c$17039c80$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008E_01C6D434.78CB11C0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbULBFoRUBBZshySd6kWEIrubS0WA== Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70667 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: I had to share this :) Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008E_01C6D434.78CB11C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5324750.stm May be more 'discoverers' should use this ;) ------=_NextPart_000_008E_01C6D434.78CB11C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

http://news.bbc.co= .uk/1/hi/health/5324750.stm

 

May be more ‘discoverers’ should use this = ;)

 

------=_NextPart_000_008E_01C6D434.78CB11C0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 9 10:22:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k89HMiRo026570; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 10:22:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k89HH6Mc021939; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 10:17:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 10:17:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c6d433$bb417e50$11027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [Vo]:Re: Steve Jones placed on paid leave Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 12:16:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6D409.D1BA4EC0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70668 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6D409.D1BA4EC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6D409.D1BEE2A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6D409.D1BEE2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, Who knows what BYU profs think or imagine. Chicken Little was certain = the sky was falling so maybe prof Jones got a little carried away from = comparing what his logical mind was thinking and his views on the = administration. I don't know for certain what actually happened to bring 3 buildings = down in NYC on 911 cuz I wasn't in on the planning . I watched that day = on tv as they came tumbling down and the evidence surely shows they fell = from all the smoke, rubble and dead bodies. My old uncle Raford over in Dime Box Texas that sits on the porch and = chews tobackee likely surmised that he could figure buying off on the = ideee that ONE building free falling may sell. TWO buildings free = falling in an identical manner may sorta stretch the truth outa = shape... BUT THREE buildings free falling alike could'na been sold even = by ole Jim Bowie of the Alamo days and he could sell lost gold mine maps = on the streets of San Antonio for 20 dollars apiece no matter if he was = drunk or sober. Raford would tell anyone that will listen. never to = trust anything a Texan says when he leaves the state cause he wouldn't = leave here if he had a lick of sense, or unless the law was looking for = him for lying, cheating and stealing. Or iffen he winds up in Hollywood = or Washington DC. Ya'll just go ahead and forget about it , all it will get you is fired = ofen your job like Jones. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6D409.D1BEE2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
Who knows what BYU profs think or imagine. Chicken Little was = certain the=20 sky was falling so maybe prof Jones got a little carried away from = comparing=20 what his logical mind was thinking and his views on the = administration.
 
I don't know for certain what actually happened to bring 3 = buildings down=20 in NYC on 911 cuz I wasn't in on the planning . I watched that day on tv = as they came tumbling down and the evidence surely shows they fell = from all=20 the smoke, rubble and dead bodies.
 
My old uncle Raford over in Dime Box Texas that sits on the porch = and chews=20 tobackee likely surmised that he could figure buying off on the ideee = that ONE=20 building free falling may sell. TWO buildings free falling in an = identical=20 manner may sorta stretch the truth  outa shape... BUT THREE = buildings free=20 falling alike could'na been sold even by ole Jim Bowie of the Alamo = days=20 and he could sell lost gold mine maps on the streets of San Antonio for = 20=20 dollars apiece no matter if  he was drunk or = sober. Raford would=20 tell anyone that will listen. never to trust anything a Texan says when = he=20 leaves the state cause he wouldn't leave here if he had a lick of sense, = or=20 unless  the law was looking for him for lying, cheating and = stealing. Or=20 iffen he winds up in Hollywood or Washington DC.
Ya'll just go ahead and forget about it , all it will get you is = fired ofen=20 your job like Jones.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6D409.D1BEE2A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6D409.D1BA4EC0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c6d433$ba6a0a10$11027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6D409.D1BA4EC0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 9 10:25:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k89HOsUc027959; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 10:24:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k89HOq08027930; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 10:24:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 10:24:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 13:11:35 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-reply-to: <008501c6d41e$bb1d6110$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70669 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Remi, > Now when people start talking about violating the *1st Law* it can only > mean: > > 1) The constants of nature have changed over the timescale of your > experiment. > 2) That some new force has been found. Your faith in the first law is strong. Is it stronger than your religious faith? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 9 11:40:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k89IdrKm004026; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 11:39:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k89IdlLT003968; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 11:39:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 11:39:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn reverse speech Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 11:39:44 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: <45010577.60409@usfamily.net> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70670 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm no expert in reverse speech. I did forward the links to the discoverer, David Oats. To interpret the reversals, you should have both the forward and reverse phrases lined up to get the context. You can get a free trial version of David's software that does that. I didn't have time to do that. Just a quick and cursory listening to interview #1 yielded: Very small Earth major events Often gets values Your are offered running evidence Yeah, we're off What's the most you could get out You must risk You understand Electron beam Smack! >From the second interview: Can't stop it Odd people I don't believe it No worry -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy@usfamily.net] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:54 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hoyt A. Stearns jr. wrote: > I've captured two interviews of Sean McCarthy from Steorn and removed > the interviewers( Steve Krivit and the SteornPower.com person who > seems to be anonymous), > > then reversed them ( http://www.reversespeech.com > ) for your entertainment: > > http://HoytStearns.com/Reversals > I listened to the reverse speech man when he and Art Bell were on speaking terms, and found his claims interesting. I clicked on one of the links with a .wav ending. I got a message saying that I had done an illegal operation. I had to restart the computer. Do tell us what you think you heard. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 9 16:00:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k89N03v2008349; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 16:00:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k89MuF0C006651; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 15:56:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 15:56:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: EMdrive (with subject line) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 08:56:09 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <008501c6d41e$bb1d6110$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> <008701c6d420$0d4a8f70$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> In-Reply-To: <008701c6d420$0d4a8f70$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 9 Sep 2006 22:56:08 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k89Mu8Te006595 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70671 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Sat, 9 Sep 2006 15:55:51 +0100: Hi, It is well known that when magnetic field lines are broken, and reconnect, considerable energy is released. Where does this energy come from, and why should it not be equally true here on Earth as it is in the Solar corona or in the Earth's magnetic tail? [snip] >((Incidentally with the Steorn stuff why, if some new force has been found, >would it couple exclusively to magnetic forms of energy? Why not light, >heat, phonons? One can bet if some new process had been discovered *it would >generate heat* - processes happening on the micro-level would tend to get >randomised and end up that way - take the heat of radioactive decay.)) [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 9 21:00:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8A3xtY5022831; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 20:59:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8A3xnpt022730; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 20:59:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 20:59:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=P7ppurkx0n1NzSv7LVCtzSdAobPkhKJmCqKyMjF9S4e4S9nWldr8cnk9yBhHFhZqncF2Y7bOX6S9Vo7hmOxPSAUc3zZNYq99B4IHnDdIMMf59WIHXgzz0nlHex4b9NGrY7T+ONbhJhjMswSe41Uy+3p4QC+M5iTq0x0icqFL94M= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 23:59:44 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_71649_22904236.1157860784448" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70672 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Question ---re Microwave propulsion Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_71649_22904236.1157860784448 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Q: Will the operators of the microwave propulsion method shield the device with a double wall and air space between the wall MAGNETICALLY permeable shunt? If not, then how will they know there is not coupling with or to the horizontal and vertical fields from the earth? Q: What provision[s] are there to preclude electric and or magnetic field coupling with the ambient condition[s]? HOW.... specifically are measures made? What is-are the control[s] ? HJ nn ------=_Part_71649_22904236.1157860784448 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Q:
 
      Will the operators of the microwave propulsion method shield the device
with a double wall and air space between the wall MAGNETICALLY permeable
shunt?
 
     If not, then how will they know there is not coupling with or to the horizontal and 
vertical fields from the earth?
 
 Q:   What provision[s] are there to preclude electric and or magnetic field
coupling with the ambient condition[s]?
 
              HOW.... specifically are measures made?
 
             What is-are the control[s] ?
 
 
 HJ
 
 
 
nn 
------=_Part_71649_22904236.1157860784448-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 9 22:23:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8A5MwR0021029; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 22:22:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8A5MvaX021017; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 22:22:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 22:22:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4503A0F9.3030409@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:22:01 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: EMdrive (with subject line) References: <008701c6d420$0d4a8f70$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> In-Reply-To: <008701c6d420$0d4a8f70$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70675 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remi Cornwall wrote: > > >It won't be ZPE: "Comment on Zero-point Fluctuations and The Cosmological >Constant", Michel F.C., Astrophysical Journal, 466:660-667, (1996). > > Does this author say that if someone demonstrates O U energy production, it, (the energy), won't be comming from the ZPE? Hal Puthoff has theorized extensively and come to an opposite conclusion. OTOH, no one has been able to cohere any of it. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 10 00:31:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8A7V7kK009601; Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:31:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8A7V5R2009584; Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:31:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:31:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=FotBi06V/wjJad6zyWT/JQ8uwllMPrlibRBbxmw85zpfcH/xpGaWfI59eaO0gOIsCHpnU01z1vrPQNJlzmzC0Y9uKqe6RLn86I4TeH23wVS4SoowmC0g7yGW3nmtfXDCjf2EVWAamznzkjeWnHNM+z8sFRPJ3uJFkqQ31c15tRQ= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 19:31:03 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_76591_20370449.1157873463394" References: <008501c6d41e$bb1d6110$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70676 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_76591_20370449.1157873463394 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Remi, seriously how do you know energy can't be created or destroyed? There is a theory saying it can't. And there are observations where it is conserved. And observations where it isn't. Logical thought experiments where it is conserved. And logical thought experiments where it is not conserved. Energy exists, has it always been and always be the same exact joule amount for the uni/multi-verse? What about quantum uncertainty/fluctuations of energy? What about the 'Big Bang'? Ok so if energy is conserved then we can also ignore the EMDrive or anything else that claims to create a reactionless force (Podkletnov) because reactionless acceleration violates the c of e. (double the time accelerating equals double the velocity equals double the energy in but 4x the energy contained in the motion) Of course this discussion serves no useful purpose, it can never be proven one way or the other, no matter what Steorn or anyone else is able to demonstrate there will never be any way to prove that the energy isn't being lost somewhere else. Richard Feynman was pretty clear on the energy contained in the vacuum and it is more than enough to make this a moot point. (although in the case of unidirectional motion I'm uncertain if anyone could come up with a sensible mechanism that could support the conservation of energy unless there is s thrust on something, all the rest of the matter in the universe, an aether) On 9/10/06, Harry Veeder wrote: > > Remi, > > > > Now when people start talking about violating the *1st Law* it can only > > mean: > > > > 1) The constants of nature have changed over the timescale of your > > experiment. > > 2) That some new force has been found. > > > Your faith in the first law is strong. > Is it stronger than your religious faith? > > Harry > > ------=_Part_76591_20370449.1157873463394 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Remi, seriously how do you know energy can't be created or destroyed?

There is a theory saying it can't.
And there are observations where it is conserved.
And observations where it isn't.

Logical thought experiments where it is conserved.
And logical thought experiments where it is not conserved.

Energy exists, has it always been and always be the same exact joule amount for the uni/multi-verse? What about quantum uncertainty/fluctuations of energy? What about the 'Big Bang'?

Ok so if energy is conserved then we can also ignore the EMDrive or anything else that claims to create a reactionless force (Podkletnov) because reactionless acceleration violates the c of e. (double the time accelerating equals double the velocity equals double the energy in but 4x the energy contained in the motion)

Of course this discussion serves no useful purpose, it can never be proven one way or the other, no matter what Steorn or anyone else is able to demonstrate there will never be any way to prove that the energy isn't being lost somewhere else.

Richard Feynman was pretty clear on the energy contained in the vacuum and it is more than enough to make this a moot point. (although in the case of unidirectional motion I'm uncertain if anyone could come up with a sensible mechanism that could support the conservation of energy unless there is s thrust on something, all the rest of the matter in the universe, an aether)


On 9/10/06, Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
Remi,


> Now when people start talking about violating the *1st Law* it can only
> mean:
>
> 1) The constants of nature have changed over the timescale of your
> experiment.
> 2) That some new force has been found.


Your faith in the first law is strong.
Is it stronger than your religious faith?

Harry


------=_Part_76591_20370449.1157873463394-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 10 08:32:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8AFWCjl007876; Sun, 10 Sep 2006 08:32:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8AFW9OL007830; Sun, 10 Sep 2006 08:32:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 08:32:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=quLf5BG2Rw9Buj8M/YxtyQwe6Btd+zZeWzhnG9Nq2F5cUpzGp0I+TbkXoj6l/xvKg46FB32J+dq/J71/x3kmWz6PmyDcvDLthxv/HauZE35grTDAZ34cYpY60UiEeYrp50HP6ZvKsAv00CRuio5are1ZUKXF3QtXE8TGRx47jGo= ; Message-ID: <002601c6d4ee$4445d510$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 08:29:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70677 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: This could have been Jed Status: RO X-Status: If memory serves... (not always the case)... in a past post, Jed Rothwell mentioned he tries to commute by bicycle. I wish more folks had this mind-set. Here is such a story which has taken the net by storm. A Tennessean has become a minor celebrity on the internet from this "Hybrid Bike" video news report http://cyclesantamonica.blogspot.com/2006/09/hybrid-bike.html ... which continues to get a massive stream of viewers. Two days ago the video moved to the #22 spot in "most viewed for the week" category on Youtube, with over 6000 views. And that number is lower than actual views, because the youtube database lags. From past experience, this indicates a eventual viewership in six figures. Not bad for the green-scene. Since that news report was aired, many blogs are posting a similar accounts - like this L.A. ebike story published in Encino: http://cyclesantamonica.blogspot.com/2006/09/valley-ebiker.html In about 1/3 of this USA, biking is a viable every-day option. Now if the weather was better in other parts of the country ... OR ... if someone would design a versatile and inexpensive wearable "accessory" to permit the rider to commute to work without getting drenched, overheated or freezing, you would probably see millions of younger Americans (especially guys in the 20-40 age group who want to stay fit) commuting to work on a regular basis. Unfortunately for their safety, most will be zoned-out on music with ipod & headphones. For bike-commuting to accomplish a real nationwide impact on fossil fuel use, the problem is that you still need a car. But possibly, a bike-commute can eliminate one car in a two car household, and/or maybe a quarter of the normal gasoline consumption. "There are Ten Million bicycles in Beijing" is a catchy song which is also an eponymous factoid, and is one of the reasons that China can compete with the world in productivity - despite not having the automotive infrastructure of the West. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 10 11:39:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8AIdJnP012827; Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:39:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8AIdIRm012807; Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:39:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:39:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=FF6G5/IVCSdxvhMlr5zW4BO8mPHyngmpBYPyEY2nS3f2aaSGFo02oEm48bFCocVTER/CtIfOcLoZvMwH9o2drTd9Yxf7gKcL671a7CMhKg1BvI5KviUuP+c4h1SmanlzBG8QYgy7Sl3sgDRvdVV+rLbnBYeJx/A+zUvebEKWjW0= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 14:39:17 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: This could have been Jed In-Reply-To: <002601c6d4ee$4445d510$6401a8c0@NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <002601c6d4ee$4445d510$6401a8c0@NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70678 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9/10/06, Jones Beene wrote: > In about 1/3 of this USA, biking is a viable every-day option. Now > if the weather was better in other parts of the country ... OR ... > if someone would design a versatile and inexpensive wearable > "accessory" to permit the rider to commute to work without getting > drenched, overheated or freezing, you would probably see millions > of younger Americans (especially guys in the 20-40 age group who > want to stay fit) commuting to work on a regular basis. > Unfortunately for their safety, most will be zoned-out on music > with ipod & headphones. How about the Tango? A bit pricey but cute: http://www.commutercars.com/ Or the Lietra: http://www.leitra.dk/ Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 9 21:03:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8A43bq2024941; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:03:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8A43a7Z024923; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:03:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:03:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=DoFIPGWxVNc7OWfHl+B4HOGryfSc5EqEgk0cKFS3UfOANUeIdKtsAtLy8YtRvbB2wm4dlxoWoW1hKIUtSB2TjDiPw5cG9c7jgCypqfyG+qEoYjoDpqjf0ENzDmn3nMn6b7s8vptA4AULBeRRPkCuLW2P+2vfwuXnZ0ioppwvsQs= ; Message-ID: <08b201c6d48e$14b52c20$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:03:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70673 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: Main topic in New Scientist this week is the EMDrive. Colin = = = http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg19125681.400-relativity-drive-the-end-of-wings-and-wheels.html or Relativity drive: The end of wings and wheels? 08 September 2006 Justin Mullins The electromagnetic drive Look, no wings! The trip from London to Havant on the south coast of England is like travelling through time. I sit in an air-conditioned train, on tracks first laid 150 years ago, passing roads that were known to the Romans. At one point, I pick out a canal boat, queues of cars and the trail from a high-flying jet - the evolution of mechanised travel in a single glance. But evolution has a habit of springing surprises. Waiting at my destination is a man who would put an end to mechanised travel. Roger Shawyer has developed an engine with no moving parts that he believes can replace rockets and make trains, planes and automobiles obsolete. "The end of wings and wheels" is how he puts it. It's a bold claim. Of course, any crackpot can rough out plans for a warp drive. What they never show you is evidence that it works. Shawyer is different. He has built a working prototype to test his ideas, and as a respected spacecraft engineer he has persuaded the British government to fund his work. Now organisations from other parts of the world, including the US air force and the Chinese government, are beating a path to his tiny company. The device that has sparked their interest is an engine that generates thrust purely from electromagnetic radiation - microwaves to be precise - by exploiting the strange properties of relativity. It has no moving parts, and releases no exhaust or noxious emissions. Potentially, it could pack the punch of a rocket in a box the size of a suitcase. It could one day replace the engines on almost any spacecraft. More advanced versions might allow cars to lift from the ground and hover. It could even lead to aircraft that will not need wings at all. I can't help thinking that it sounds too good to be true. When I meet Shawyer, he turns out to be reassuringly normal. His credentials are certainly impressive. He worked his way up through the aerospace industry, designing and building navigation and communications equipment for military and commercial satellites, before becoming a senior aerospace engineer at Matra Marconi Space (later part of EADS Astrium) in Portsmouth, near where he now lives. He was also a consultant to the Galileo project, Europe's satellite navigation system, which engineers are now testing in orbit and for which he negotiated the use of the radio frequencies it needed. Dangerous idea With that pedigree, you'd imagine Shawyer would be someone the space industry would have listened to. Far from it. While at Astrium, Shawyer proposed that the company develop his idea. "I was told in no uncertain terms to drop it," he says. "This came from the very top." What Shawyer had in mind was a replacement for the small thrusters conventional satellites use to stay in orbit. The fuel they need makes up about half their launch weight, and also limits a satellite's life: once it runs out, the vehicle drifts out of position and must be replaced. Shawyer's engine, by contrast, would be propelled by microwaves generated from solar energy. The photovoltaic cells would eliminate the fuel, and with the launch weight halved, satellite manufacturers could send up two craft for the price of one, so you would only need half as many launches. So why the problem? Shawyer argues that for companies investing billions in rockets and launch sites, a new technology that leads to fewer launches and longer-lasting satellites has little commercial appeal. By the same token, a company that offers more for less usually wins in the end, so Shawyer's idea may have been seen as too speculative. Whatever the reason, in 2000, he resigned to go it alone. Surprisingly, Shawyer's disruptive technology rests on an idea that goes back more than a century. In 1871 the physicist James Clerk Maxwell worked out that light should exert a force on any surface it hits, like the wind on a sail. This so-called radiation pressure is extremely weak, though. Last year, a group called The Planetary Society attempted to launch a solar sail called Cosmos 1 into orbit. The sail had a surface area of about 600 square metres. Despite this large area, about the size of two tennis courts, its developers calculated that sunlight striking it would produce a force of 3 millinewtons, barely enough to lift a feather on the surface of the Earth. Still, it would be enough to accelerate a craft in the weightlessness of space, though unfortunately the sail was lost after launch. NASA is also interested in solar sails, but has never launched one. Perhaps that shouldn't be a surprise, as a few millinewtons isn't enough for serious work in space. But what if you could amplify the effect? That's exactly the idea that Shawyer stumbled on in the 1970s while working for a British military technology company called Sperry Gyroscope. Shawyer's expertise is in microwaves, and when he was asked to come up with a gyroscopic device for a guidance system he instead came up with the idea for an electromagnetic engine. He even unearthed a 1950s paper by Alex Cullen, an electrical engineer at University College London, describing how electromagnetic energy might create a force. "It came to nothing at the time, but the idea stuck in my head," he says. In his workshop, Shawyer explains how this led him to a way of producing thrust. For years he has explored ways to confine microwaves inside waveguides, hollow tubes that trap radiation and direct it along their length. Take a standard copper waveguide and close off both ends. Now create microwaves using a magnetron, a device found in every microwave oven. If you inject these microwaves into the cavity, the microwaves will bounce from one end of the cavity to the other. According to the principles outlined by Maxwell, this will produce a tiny force on the end walls. Now carefully match the size of the cavity to the wavelength of the microwaves and you create a chamber in which the microwaves resonate, allowing it to store large amounts of energy. What's crucial here is the Q-value of the cavity - a measure of how well a vibrating system prevents its energy dissipating into heat, or how slowly the oscillations are damped down. For example, a pendulum swinging in air would have a high Q, while a pendulum immersed in oil would have a low one. If microwaves leak out of the cavity, the Q will be low. A cavity with a high Q-value can store large amounts of microwave energy with few losses, and this means the radiation will exert relatively large forces on the ends of the cavity. You might think the forces on the end walls will cancel each other out, but Shawyer worked out that with a suitably shaped resonant cavity, wider at one end than the other, the radiation pressure exerted by the microwaves at the wide end would be higher than at the narrow one. Key is the fact that the diameter of a tubular cavity alters the path - and hence the effective velocity - of the microwaves travelling through it. Microwaves moving along a relatively wide tube follow a more or less uninterrupted path from end to end, while microwaves in a narrow tube move along it by reflecting off the walls. The narrower the tube gets, the more the microwaves get reflected and the slower their effective velocity along the tube becomes. Shawyer calculates the microwaves striking the end wall at the narrow end of his cavity will transfer less momentum to the cavity than those striking the wider end (see Diagram). The result is a net force that pushes the cavity in one direction. And that's it, Shawyer says. Hang on a minute, though. If the cavity is to move, it must be pushed by something. A rocket engine, for example, is propelled by hot exhaust gases pushing on the rear of the rocket. How can photons confined inside a cavity make the cavity move? This is where relativity and the strange nature of light come in. Since the microwave photons in the waveguide are travelling close to the speed of light, any attempt to resolve the forces they generate must take account of Einstein's special theory of relativity. This says that the microwaves move in their own frame of reference. In other words they move independently of the cavity - as if they are outside it. As a result, the microwaves themselves exert a push on the cavity. "How can photons confined inside a cavity make the cavity move? This is where relativity and the strange nature of light come in" Each photon that a magnetron fires into the cavity creates an equal and opposite reaction - like the recoil force on a gun as it fires a bullet. With Shawyer's design, however, this force is minuscule compared with the forces generated in the resonant cavity, because the photons reflect back and forth up to 50,000 times. With each reflection, a reaction occurs between the cavity and the photon, each operating in its own frame of reference. This generates a tiny force, which for a powerful microwave beam confined in the cavity adds up to produce a perceptible thrust on the cavity itself. Shawyer's calculations have not convinced everyone. Depending on who you talk to Shawyer is either a genius or a purveyor of snake oil. David Jefferies, a microwave engineer at the University of Surrey in the UK, is adamant that there is an error in Shawyer's thinking. "It's a load of bloody rubbish," he says. At the other end of the scale is Stepan Lucyszyn, a microwave engineer at Imperial College London. "I think it's outstanding science," he says. Marc Millis, the engineer behind NASA's programme to assess revolutionary propulsion technology accepts that the net forces inside the cavity will be unequal, but as for the thrust it generates, he wants to see the hard evidence before making a judgement. Thrust from a box Shawyer's electromagnetic drive - emdrive for short - consists in essence of a microwave generator attached to what looks like a large copper cake tin. It needs a power supply for the magnetron, but there are no moving parts and no fuel - just a cord to plug it into the mains. Various pipes add complexity, but they are just there to keep the chamber cool. And the device seems to work: by mounting it on a sensitive balance, he has shown that it generates about 16 millinewtons of thrust, using 1 kilowatt of electrical power. Shawyer calculated that his first prototype had a Q of 5900. With his second thruster, he managed to raise the Q to 50,000 allowing it to generate a force of about 300 millinewtons - 100 times what Cosmos 1 could achieve. It's not enough for Earth-based use, but it's revolutionary for spacecraft. One of the conditions of Shawyer's £250,000 funding from the UK's Department of Trade and Industry is that his research be independently reviewed, and he has been meticulous in cataloguing his work and in measuring the forces involved. "It's not easy because the forces are tiny compared to the weight of the equipment," he says. Optimising the cavity is crucial, and it's as much art as science. Energy leaks out in all kinds of ways: microwaves heat the cavity, for example, changing its electrical characteristics so that it no longer resonates. At very high powers, microwaves can rip electrons out of the metal, causing sparks and a dramatic loss of power. "It can be a very fine balancing act," says Shawyer. To review the project, the UK government hired John Spiller, an independent space engineer. He was impressed. He says the thruster's design is practical and could be adapted fairly easily to operate in space. He points out, though, that the drive needs to be developed further and tested by an independent group with its own equipment. "It certainly needs to be flown experimentally," he says. Armed with his prototypes, the test measurements and Spiller's review, Shawyer is now presenting his design to the space industry. The reaction in China and the US has been markedly more enthusiastic than that in Europe. "The European Space Agency knows about it but has not shown any interest," he says. The US air force has already paid him a visit, and a Chinese company has attempted to buy the intellectual property associated with the thruster. This month, he will be travelling to both countries to visit interested parties, including NASA. "A Chinese company has tried to buy rights to the microwave thruster" To space and beyond His plan is to license the technology to a major player in the space industry who can adapt the design and send up a test satellite to prove that it works. If all goes to plan, Shawyer believes he could see the engine tested in space within two years. He estimates that his thruster could save the space industry $15 billion over the next 10 years. Spiller is more cautious. While the engine could certainly reduce the launch weight of a satellite, he doubts it will significantly increase its lifetime since other parts will still wear out. The space industry might not need to worry after all. Meanwhile Shawyer is looking ahead to the next stage of his project. He wants to make the thrusters so powerful that they could make combustion engines obsolete, and that means addressing the big problem with conventional microwave cavities - the amount of energy they leak. The biggest losses come from currents induced in the metal walls by the microwaves, which generate heat when they encounter electrical resistance. This uses up energy stored in the cavity, reduces the Q, and the thrust generated by the engine drops. Fortunately particle accelerators use microwave cavities too, so physicists have done a lot of work on reducing Q losses inside them. The key, says Shawyer, is to make the cavity superconducting. Without electrical resistance, currents in the cavity walls will not generate heat. Engineers in Germany working on the next generation of particle accelerators have achieved a Q of several billion using superconducting cavities. If Shawyer can match that performance, he calculates that the thrust from a microwave engine could be as high as 30,000 newtons per kilowatt - enough to lift a large car. This raises another question. Why haven't physicists stumbled across the effect before? They have, says Shawyer, and they design their cavities to counter it. The forces inside the latest accelerator cavities are so large that they stretch the chambers like plasticine. To counteract this, engineers use piezoelectric actuators to squeeze the cavities back into shape. "I doubt they've ever thought of turning the force to other uses," he says. No doubt his superconducting cavities will be hard to build, and Shawyer is realistic about the problems he is likely to meet. Particle accelerators made out of niobium become superconducting at the temperature of liquid helium - only a few degrees above absolute zero. That would be impractical for a motor, Shawyer believes, so he wants to find a material that superconducts at a slightly higher temperature, and use liquid hydrogen, which boils at 20 kelvin, as the coolant. Hydrogen could also power a fuel cell or turbine to generate electricity for the emdrive. In the meantime, he wants to test the device with liquid nitrogen, which is easier to handle. It boils at 77 kelvin, a temperature that will require the latest generation of high-temperature ceramic superconductors. Shawyer hasn't yet settled on the exact material, but he admits that any ceramic will be tricky to incorporate into the design because of its fragility. It will have to be reliably bonded to the inside of a cavity and mustn't crack or flake when cooled. There are other problems too. The inside of the cavity will still be heated by the microwaves, and this will possibly quench the superconducting effect. "Nobody has done this kind of work," Shawyer says. "I'm not expecting it to be easy." Then there is the issue of acceleration. Shawyer has calculated that as soon as the thruster starts to move, it will use up energy stored in the cavity, draining energy faster than it can be replaced. So while the thrust of a motionless emdrive is high, the faster the engine moves, the more the thrust falls. Shawyer now reckons the emdrive will be better suited to powering vehicles that hover rather than accelerate rapidly. A fan or turbine attached to the back of the vehicle could then be used to move it forward without friction. He hopes to demonstrate his first superconducting thruster within two years. What of the impact of such a device? On my journey home I have plenty of time to speculate. No need for wheels, no friction. Shawyer suggested to me before I left that a hover car with an emdrive thruster cooled and powered by hydrogen could be a major factor in converting our society from a petrol-based one to one based on hydrogen. "You need something different to persuade people to make the switch. Perhaps being able to move in three dimensions rather than two would do the trick." What about aircraft without wings? I'm aware that my feeling of scepticism is being replaced by a more dangerous one of unbounded optimism. In five minutes of blue-sky thinking you can dream up a dozen ways in which the emdrive could change the world. I have an hour ahead of me. The end of wings and wheels. Now there's a thought. >From issue 2568 of New Scientist magazine, 08 September 2006, page 30-34 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 9 21:29:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8A4TBdk003216; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:29:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8A4TA0p003200; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:29:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:29:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=1I37ZqMsIw8kMrmBm65DU6USeliTst19p+gRbqMj0zsJcNLpdMQPHXl2fkuVA1JZkRBqQidhPUSU3OpI37cKrODdu7xTR1LzguMND9ao1kL+NeSGPDSOVGDPoLV+HarfEwCS45FRsEi8lPvcPNX4420nTSdwQWvFHNqxlgPFi1w= ; Message-ID: <08dc01c6d491$a5aa36a0$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:29:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_08D9_01C6D470.1E49DA60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <3id1BC.A.yx.VS5AFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70674 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Question ---re Microwave propulsion X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_08D9_01C6D470.1E49DA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, I have heard that the scale utilized was digital. There should also be a = mechanical scale. The stiffness of the power supply wires may be a = concern. There are several possible artefacts that may or may not have = been eliminated. If you wish you can request the experimental papers but = delayed because of interest generated from this week's New Scientist = article. I would have requested them myself but I am not affiliated with = any group or organisation. See : http://www.shelleys.demon.co.uk/fdec02em.htm QUOTE : A paper giving the theory and a summary of the experimental work = is available free by e mail application to TheEmdrive@aol.com , giving = name and affiliation. More information may be found at www.emdrive.com . = TS Colin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: john herman=20 To: vortex-l=20 Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 11:59 PM Subject: [Vo]: Question ---re Microwave propulsion Q: Will the operators of the microwave propulsion method shield the = device with a double wall and air space between the wall MAGNETICALLY = permeable shunt? If not, then how will they know there is not coupling with or to = the horizontal and=20 vertical fields from the earth? Q: What provision[s] are there to preclude electric and or magnetic = field=20 coupling with the ambient condition[s]? HOW.... specifically are measures made? What is-are the control[s] ? HJ nn ------=_NextPart_000_08D9_01C6D470.1E49DA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,
 
I have heard that the scale = utilized was=20 digital. There should also be a mechanical scale. The stiffness of = the=20 power supply wires may be a concern. There are several possible = artefacts that=20 may or may not have been eliminated. If you wish you can request the=20 experimental papers but delayed because of interest generated from this = week's=20 New Scientist article. I would have requested them myself but I am = not=20 affiliated with any group or organisation.
See :  http://www.shelleys= .demon.co.uk/fdec02em.htm
QUOTE : A paper giving the theory and a summary of the experimental = work is=20 available free by e mail application to TheEmdrive@aol.com , giving name = and=20 affiliation. More information may be found at www.emdrive.com . TS
 
Colin
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 john herman=20
Sent: Saturday, September 09, = 2006 11:59=20 PM
Subject: [Vo]: Question ---re = Microwave=20 propulsion

Q:
 
      Will the operators of the = microwave=20 propulsion method shield the device
with a double wall and air space between the wall MAGNETICALLY=20 permeable
shunt?
 
     If not, then how will they know there is = not=20 coupling with or to the horizontal and 
vertical fields from the earth?
 
 Q:   What provision[s] are there to preclude = electric and=20 or magnetic field
coupling with the ambient condition[s]?
 
=
           &n= bsp; =20 HOW.... specifically are measures made?
 
=
           &n= bsp;=20 What is-are the control[s] ?
 
 
 HJ
 
 
 
nn 
------=_NextPart_000_08D9_01C6D470.1E49DA60-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 11 03:20:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8BAKO6K022289; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:20:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8BAKL6k022220; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:20:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:20:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=Dpa+hncqrS6pYss0JM7T5i613xnIm3BdQJL7gdleEXTmFbXHF+6kdCAItduTKnARcrxUmV8geBsmRnYNBg0P9V6GCkZYjkSVEWSuDVAmthVIKYVq+nP03a84ZS63+VTPwiBgdKgh7E5RferOCRirYRafZ0VVCcvbHuO4dVXg77Q= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Question ---re Microwave propulsion Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:20:14 +0100 Message-ID: <00a001c6d58b$e02a8050$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C6D594.41EEE850" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcbUjwQM2Q36et5PRluGpvaMTV/eJQA/G0kw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70679 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C6D594.41EEE850 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah John, And if Andreas Rathke says it might be expulsion of hot gas, do the darn thing in a vacuum chamber. I don't think the establishment are being necessarily obstructive and obstreperous. You've just got to work with them to dot the 'i's cross the 't's. It's all part of being professional. R. _____ From: john herman [mailto:hermajohn@gmail.com] Sent: 10 September 2006 05:00 To: vortex-l Subject: [Vo]: Question ---re Microwave propulsion Q: Will the operators of the microwave propulsion method shield the device with a double wall and air space between the wall MAGNETICALLY permeable shunt? If not, then how will they know there is not coupling with or to the horizontal and vertical fields from the earth? Q: What provision[s] are there to preclude electric and or magnetic field coupling with the ambient condition[s]? HOW.... specifically are measures made? What is-are the control[s] ? HJ nn ------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C6D594.41EEE850 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yeah = John,

And if Andreas Rathke says it might = be expulsion of hot gas, do the darn thing in a vacuum = chamber.

 

I don’t think the = establishment are being necessarily obstructive and obstreperous. You’ve just got to = work with them to dot the ‘i’s cross the ‘t’s. = It’s all part of being professional.

R.

 

From: john herman [mailto:hermajohn@gmail.com]
Sent: 10 September 2006 = 05:00
To: vortex-l
Subject: [Vo]: Question = ---re Microwave propulsion

 

Q:

 

      Will the operators of the = microwave propulsion method shield the device

with a double wall and air space between the wall MAGNETICALLY permeable

shunt?

 

     If not, then how will they know there = is not coupling with or to the horizontal = and 

vertical fields from the earth?

 

 Q:   What provision[s] are there to preclude = electric and or magnetic field

coupling with the ambient = condition[s]?

 

           = ;   HOW.... specifically are measures made?

 

           = ;  What is-are the control[s] ?

 

 

 HJ

 

 

 

nn 

------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C6D594.41EEE850-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 11 03:21:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8BAKQeZ022316; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:20:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8BAKOGl022284; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:20:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:20:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=PW1/Ct5595BJAZRelNhOImdE1m+krTMEMZ351mV5z0JWPMiZZPP7xi5tCWzpOW74svf0eYPHMVR18F6od1nHBW+csTFswY3rpBQ4XSqH7iW9Bf2PDbuY5SzR+Aq9fA3B6xYwEvtrK7tl/dM1v5+pEE9YXw/Vwn/PZqCZNyqsPn4= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: 'Faith' in the 1st law, re H Veeder Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:20:14 +0100 Message-ID: <00ac01c6d58b$e2cf6190$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcbUNUmcpavq+UvZRpqZVsJmmOLTDQBVQsDg Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70681 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No Harry, 'faith' in logic. Don't get ratty when someone challenges your preconceptions. Extend the argument. Is there something I've missed? Is there a point 3, 4... a way into the argument that Steorn might be on to? I think not. That's the 1st Law and what it means in a nutshell. When someone challenges one in science, one has to dot the 'i's and cross the 't's unless one has very good experimental evidence. R. -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200@freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: 09 September 2006 19:12 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Remi, > Now when people start talking about violating the *1st Law* it can only > mean: > > 1) The constants of nature have changed over the timescale of your > experiment. > 2) That some new force has been found. Your faith in the first law is strong. Is it stronger than your religious faith? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 11 03:21:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8BAKcLB022433; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:20:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8BAKUJE022354; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:20:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:20:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=xU+Ugy2294jHcGJ95EFn7W7qfpdh1EtBKsh/GEOAkeIb0EVCNq6oW7by+o1mGRYCTxz4uF8ce+VN4qbzZbXNuFqXWNQuCaEV1ZYTDieu6Mhm0BOmgZmHFykT6ZvNEJSZ8Cp/0z+u005PAwhyASMf+Qd949sO0oE1D43/l/1OuEc= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: EMdrive (with subject line) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:20:14 +0100 Message-ID: <00a801c6d58b$e1d65b90$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcbUZCPaDjM2AVySR6aH2ISff1u31wBJr7FA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70680 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, In short Plasma. There are meant to be interesting effects with plasmas and excess energy that is possibly nuclear in effect. Anyway that stuff about sunspots, contorted field lines and SMEs is thought to occur because the Sun's rotational energy and the energy of the plasma gets stored in the magnetic field which like an over-stretched elastic band suddenly releases its energy in finding a newer more simple configuration. Not my area but I could find some links. R. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] Sent: 09 September 2006 23:56 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: EMdrive (with subject line) In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Sat, 9 Sep 2006 15:55:51 +0100: Hi, It is well known that when magnetic field lines are broken, and reconnect, considerable energy is released. Where does this energy come from, and why should it not be equally true here on Earth as it is in the Solar corona or in the Earth's magnetic tail? [snip] >((Incidentally with the Steorn stuff why, if some new force has been found, >would it couple exclusively to magnetic forms of energy? Why not light, >heat, phonons? One can bet if some new process had been discovered *it would >generate heat* - processes happening on the micro-level would tend to get >randomised and end up that way - take the heat of radioactive decay.)) [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 11 03:40:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8BAeKnM000905; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:40:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8BAYWqw030635; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:34:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:34:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=oeAkBwcoUSbYEKRlNZqfZ9qqg0Cvx7JSyzb1O1PsgxGm7PB6Sb+glDc7RlcJfZgLC1f/s/JH4XrWiLU46xEYmmB5fSE5VtK8UK2R9CPWieEW0ViM/OC8GuInOwem+/0P1xlM8M3rnK41lvXxGAaLhTwN+Qxq/Yz72DWk9Ye4OaU= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: EMdrive (with subject line) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:34:16 +0100 Message-ID: <00bb01c6d58d$d8004840$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: <4503A0F9.3030409@usfamily.net> Thread-Index: AcbUmYczfMJNlKmoSra5sbohlKUCjQA8romg Resent-Message-ID: <-dM6tB.A.feH.1uTBFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70682 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas, Sincerely, get hold of the paper. I'll try and dig it out and scan the relevant sections. It's all based on several false premises. The one that brought it home to me was one diagram where he had a world-line for the universe scattering off the zero photon state. I can't remember the whole argument since it was sometime since I read it but it was a meaningless concept along the lines of proving anything from a false premise, anything could happen including the universe disappearing! Other arguments were that the maths was all wrong and one cannot be extended the harmonic oscillator to the continuum of an infinite cavity. R. -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy@usfamily.net] Sent: 10 September 2006 06:22 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: EMdrive (with subject line) Remi Cornwall wrote: > > >It won't be ZPE: "Comment on Zero-point Fluctuations and The Cosmological >Constant", Michel F.C., Astrophysical Journal, 466:660-667, (1996). > > Does this author say that if someone demonstrates O U energy production, it, (the energy), won't be comming from the ZPE? Hal Puthoff has theorized extensively and come to an opposite conclusion. OTOH, no one has been able to cohere any of it. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 11 04:00:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8BB0BkF011967; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 04:00:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8BAjbTF004139; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:45:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:45:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=siXTnhZkVEJwbCOoaRVni1sI9wLQv2rlVDUXtFCA5W4K8fdfG63ZxQ1QCBs4zHe7wVwISoojdl6ZM+CPi9qKINHHM/5vso/3YggK59/shUGeZqD2APCP2PkB39T+uBd+NUt/7wpcZBj73zwqGY6raGeGTYRl9PrGkKkqq9pWjHs= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: John Berry Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:34:16 +0100 Message-ID: <00b601c6d58d$d618eaa0$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B7_01C6D596.37DD52A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcbUq8XREzrNVoKnRY+0Lna3WuXcTgA4W2Gw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70683 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B7_01C6D596.37DD52A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit * What about quantum uncertainty/fluctuations of energy? Vacuum polarisation requires energy input to manifest the virtual particles as real. That paper I mentioned in the last post says that people are confusing vacuum polarisation with zpe. The two are not the same. * What about the 'Big Bang'? I dunno!? Is Cosmology really Science? Counting angels on the head of a pin. R. _____ From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com] Sent: 10 September 2006 08:31 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Remi, seriously how do you know energy can't be created or destroyed? There is a theory saying it can't. And there are observations where it is conserved. And observations where it isn't. Logical thought experiments where it is conserved. And logical thought experiments where it is not conserved. Energy exists, has it always been and always be the same exact joule amount for the uni/multi-verse? What about quantum uncertainty/fluctuations of energy? What about the 'Big Bang'? Ok so if energy is conserved then we can also ignore the EMDrive or anything else that claims to create a reactionless force (Podkletnov) because reactionless acceleration violates the c of e. (double the time accelerating equals double the velocity equals double the energy in but 4x the energy contained in the motion) Of course this discussion serves no useful purpose, it can never be proven one way or the other, no matter what Steorn or anyone else is able to demonstrate there will never be any way to prove that the energy isn't being lost somewhere else. Richard Feynman was pretty clear on the energy contained in the vacuum and it is more than enough to make this a moot point. (although in the case of unidirectional motion I'm uncertain if anyone could come up with a sensible mechanism that could support the conservation of energy unless there is s thrust on something, all the rest of the matter in the universe, an aether) On 9/10/06, Harry Veeder wrote: Remi, > Now when people start talking about violating the *1st Law* it can only > mean: > > 1) The constants of nature have changed over the timescale of your > experiment. > 2) That some new force has been found. Your faith in the first law is strong. Is it stronger than your religious faith? Harry ------=_NextPart_000_00B7_01C6D596.37DD52A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ø       What about quantum uncertainty/fluctuations of energy?

 

Vacuum polarisation requires energy input to manifest the = virtual particles as real. That paper I mentioned in the last post says that = people are confusing vacuum polarisation with zpe. The two are not the = same.

 

Ø       What about the 'Big = Bang'?

 

I dunno!? Is Cosmology really Science? Counting angels on the = head of a pin.

 

R.

 

From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: 10 September 2006 = 08:31
To: = vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: = [Vo]:

 

Remi, = seriously how do you know energy can't be created or destroyed?

There is a theory saying it can't.
And there are observations where it is conserved.
And observations where it isn't.

Logical thought experiments where it is conserved.
And logical thought experiments where it is not conserved.

Energy exists, has it always been and always be the same exact joule = amount for the uni/multi-verse? What about quantum uncertainty/fluctuations of = energy? What about the 'Big Bang'?

Ok so if energy is conserved then we can also ignore the EMDrive or = anything else that claims to create a reactionless force (Podkletnov) because reactionless acceleration violates the c of e. (double the time = accelerating equals double the velocity equals double the energy in but 4x the energy contained in the motion)

Of course this discussion serves no useful purpose, it can never be = proven one way or the other, no matter what Steorn or anyone else is able to = demonstrate there will never be any way to prove that the energy isn't being lost = somewhere else.

Richard Feynman was pretty clear on the energy contained in the vacuum = and it is more than enough to make this a moot point. (although in the case of unidirectional motion I'm uncertain if anyone could come up with a = sensible mechanism that could support the conservation of energy unless there is = s thrust on something, all the rest of the matter in the universe, an = aether)

On 9/10/06, Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca&g= t; wrote:

Remi,


> Now when people start talking about violating the *1st Law* it can = only
> mean:
>
> 1) The constants of nature have changed over the timescale of = your
> experiment.
> 2) That some new force has been found.


Your faith in the first law is strong.
Is it stronger than your religious faith?

Harry

 

------=_NextPart_000_00B7_01C6D596.37DD52A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 11 04:18:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8BBIZAP023810; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 04:18:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8BBIYTQ023792; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 04:18:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 04:18:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index; b=dTkvVXuaOX19KU3XOk58xZlb+FeKmvbP7id9FS7P0GMpPSMsYc+vsYYZrG+sGXe4r+BvopIDyMXM3t/UV8SjZW07Wy0ZaMcbQ7yBqIouB4l0dBNv3Js0mrD5ATH0tt64Pkc3ZLwrG+azSFGtMaNWTqzTdPJe2clU65U8Vk/965U= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:11:44 +0100 Message-ID: <00bf01c6d593$11e75580$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C0_01C6D59B.73ABBD80" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbVkwsq0/CtBAi6QQGLVPXCcGIVXg== Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70684 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C0_01C6D59B.73ABBD80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Robin> It is well known that when magnetic field lines are broken, and reconnect, considerable energy is released. Where does this energy come from, and why should it not be equally true here on Earth as it is in the Solar corona or in the Earth's magnetic tail? >Remi> Anyway that stuff about sunspots, contorted field lines and SMEs is thought to occur because the Sun's rotational energy and the energy of the plasma gets stored in the magnetic field which like an over-stretched elastic band suddenly releases its energy in finding a newer more simple configuration. It is also the mechanism why the photosphere is at 2Million K whilst the surface is at 6000K. >Remi> ((Incidentally with the Steorn stuff why, if some new force has been >found, would it couple exclusively to magnetic forms of energy? Why not >light, heat, phonons? One can bet if some new process had been >discovered *it would >generate heat* - processes happening on the micro-level would tend to >get randomised and end up that way - take the heat of radioactive >decay.)) ................. Website http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall ................. ------=_NextPart_000_00C0_01C6D59B.73ABBD80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>Robin> It is = well known that when magnetic field lines are broken, and reconnect, = considerable energy is released. Where does this energy come from, and why should it = not be equally true here on Earth as it is in the Solar corona or in the = Earth's magnetic tail?

 

>Remi> = Anyway that stuff about sunspots, contorted field lines and SMEs is thought to = occur because the Sun's rotational energy and the energy of the plasma gets = stored in the magnetic field which like an over-stretched elastic band suddenly = releases its energy in finding a newer more simple = configuration.

 

It is also the mechanism why the photosphere is at = 2Million K whilst the surface is at 6000K.

 

>Remi> = ((Incidentally with the Steorn stuff why, if some new force has been =

>found, would it = couple exclusively to magnetic forms of energy? Why not =

>light, heat, = phonons? One can bet if some new process had been

>discovered = *it

would

>generate heat* = - processes happening on the micro-level would tend to

>get randomised = and end up that way - take the heat of radioactive

>decay.))

 

…………= …………………………= 230;….

Website

http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwa= ll

…………= …………………………= 230;….

 

------=_NextPart_000_00C0_01C6D59B.73ABBD80-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 11 10:09:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8BH0B7I021272; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:01:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8BGZrwQ001560; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:35:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:35:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:32:35 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: 'Faith' in the 1st law, re H Veeder In-reply-to: <00ac01c6d58b$e2cf6190$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70685 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The logic of the first law when used to interpret particular observations suggests this or that as an explanation. For example, one can always add another force to nature to make observations consistent with the logic the first law, just like one can always add another epicycle to make observations consistent with the logic of the geocentric system. If the constants had changed during the course experiment, did they change every where or just in the proximity of the experiment? If they changed everywhere, then funny things should have happened everywhere during the experiment. Anyway, evidence by itself does not set the course of science. At least the weight of the evidence AND occam's razor are our guides. Harry Remi Cornwall wrote: > No Harry, 'faith' in logic. > > Don't get ratty when someone challenges your preconceptions. Extend the > argument. Is there something I've missed? Is there a point 3, 4... a way > into the argument that Steorn might be on to? > > I think not. That's the 1st Law and what it means in a nutshell. > > When someone challenges one in science, one has to dot the 'i's and cross > the 't's unless one has very good experimental evidence. > > R. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200@freenet.carleton.ca] > Sent: 09 September 2006 19:12 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: > > Remi, > > >> Now when people start talking about violating the *1st Law* it can only >> mean: >> >> 1) The constants of nature have changed over the timescale of your >> experiment. >> 2) That some new force has been found. > > > Your faith in the first law is strong. > Is it stronger than your religious faith? > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 11 10:20:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8BHKROG006964; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:20:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8BHKPfm006919; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:20:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:20:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060911102605.0300a4d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:26:19 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_594065156==.REL" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70686 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: --=====================_594065156==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_594065156==.ALT" --=====================_594065156==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Emacs! Your best source for news and information on low energy nuclear reactions September 10, 2006 -- Issue #18 ISSUE #18 is available online at http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET18.htm EDITORIALS AND OPINION 1. From the Editor 2. To the Editor NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS 3. The Communications Institute National Energy Symposiums ANALYSIS AND PERSPECTIVES 4. Bubble Fusion Discoverer Taleyarkhan Strikes Back 5. Reasonable Doubt 6. Amber's Answer To The Question Of Reproducibility 7. On The Allegations of Fraud Against Fleischmann and Pons 8. The Five Press Conferences Of Cold Fusion PUBLICATIONS 9. Cold Fusion Book Published by Kozima 10. Fourth Widom-Larsen LENR Theory Paper Released SCIENCE AND ENERGY NEWS 11. The World's Second Most Expensive Science Experiment 12. Electric Power Research Institute Cold Fusion Videotape Released 13. Steorn Challenges The First Law Of Thermodynamics 14. Brigham Young University Professor Steven Jones Rebukes Cold Fusion, Again 15. BP: Beyond Propaganda 16. Walter Meyerhof, Stanford Cold Fusion Foe, Dies At 84 17. Gustave (Bob) Kohn: February 12, 1910 - August 20, 2006 New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute, an independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation which provides information and educational services to help bring about the clean-energy revolution. The New Energy Times (tm) newsletter, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters. ---------- If you have received this announcement from a colleague and you wish to be added to the New Energy Times (tm) mailing list, or if you would like to unsubscribe, click here http://newenergytimes.com/news/news.htm. --=====================_594065156==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Emacs!
Your best source for news and information on low energy nuclear reactions
September 10, 2006 -- Issue #18


 ISSUE #18 is available online at http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET18.htm

 


EDITORIALS AND OPINION
1.   From the Editor
2.   To the Editor
NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS
3.   The Communications Institute National Energy Symposiums
ANALYSIS AND PERSPECTIVES
4.   Bubble Fusion Discoverer Taleyarkhan Strikes Back
5.   Reasonable Doubt
6.   Amber's Answer To The Question Of Reproducibility
7.   On The Allegations of Fraud Against Fleischmann and Pons
8.   The Five Press Conferences Of Cold Fusion
PUBLICATIONS
9.   Cold Fusion Book Published by Kozima
10. Fourth Widom-Larsen LENR Theory Paper Released
SCIENCE AND ENERGY NEWS
11. The World's Second Most Expensive Science Experiment
12. Electric Power Research Institute Cold Fusion Videotape Released
13. Steorn Challenges The First Law Of Thermodynamics
14. Brigham Young University Professor Steven Jones Rebukes Cold Fusion, Again
15. BP: Beyond Propaganda
16. Walter Meyerhof, Stanford Cold Fusion Foe, Dies At 84
17. Gustave (Bob) Kohn: February 12, 1910 - August 20, 2006

 


New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute, an independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation which provides information and educational services to help bring about the clean-energy revolution.
 
The New Energy Times (tm) newsletter, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters.


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ZNY8Sazf3+t3kMUdnocE2pPb+HtE0bw/b22jw/WWB1xz60U08EEk4HGACck8DpyeSOxr+BMfjcZm WNxWYY+tUxmMxuJliK9Wo05yqVJc05ycneUuZuTd7vRRira/0PhMLSweGo4WjG0KUeVN3cpNvrvq 33u31berdRRRXObhRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFAFR4o2aPdGjfvHPKKeQ4API7AAfQAd BUhiiWSMrHGp+flUUHheOQKKK638D/wTPLp/8jWt/wBfI/8ApgnooorkPUCiiigAooooAKKKKACi iigD/9k= --=====================_594065156==.REL-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 11 19:39:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8C2dO31028191; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 19:39:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8C2dLCC028164; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 19:39:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 19:39:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 12:39:18 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <00bf01c6d593$11e75580$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> In-Reply-To: <00bf01c6d593$11e75580$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 12 Sep 2006 02:39:17 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8C2dHP1028094 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70687 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:11:44 +0100: Hi, [snip] >>Robin> It is well known that when magnetic field lines are broken, and >reconnect, considerable energy is released. Where does this energy come >from, and why should it not be equally true here on Earth as it is in the >Solar corona or in the Earth's magnetic tail? > > > >>Remi> Anyway that stuff about sunspots, contorted field lines and SMEs is >thought to occur because the Sun's rotational energy and the energy of the >plasma gets stored in the magnetic field which like an over-stretched >elastic band suddenly releases its energy in finding a newer more simple >configuration. > > > >It is also the mechanism why the photosphere is at 2Million K whilst the >surface is at 6000K. ...which basically is why I brought it up. My point is that this also happens in the Van Allen belts, and those same field lines extend right through the planet, and also present themselves near the surface where we can interact with them. IOW what happens if they are broken and reconnect near the surface instead of out in space? Do we then collect energy dumped into the field by the impinging Solar wind? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 12 04:01:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8CB1904012290; Tue, 12 Sep 2006 04:01:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8CB16FE012252; Tue, 12 Sep 2006 04:01:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 04:01:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=euwyCvG/tuTMp3RUI56Qs4ofopK9KLQqyCdNZn7kQHvhqizgzpUuiIso9lZylQrOw5Z+L+cIDSFAdVs0H2EnSY7m1Z/8QMIm5NUKr7GAlSnJ/A1IAhZ9eUJVzKjHt21+z1wsfl9cr44sjUxBL0aE9ArKw/hY2xHHBB7VcLJPIEo= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Robin Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 12:00:55 +0100 Message-ID: <010201c6d65a$b9821ab0$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcbWFQOeB5tG4JWqQe+Y61b6qHnnBgARTXgg Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70688 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: May be, but not with some frigging wheel with magnets on it made by a bunch of self-publicity junkies a la Steorn or SMOT. Without expending too much time on non-starters, just devise some heuristics. How can that be? -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] Sent: 12 September 2006 03:39 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:11:44 +0100: Hi, [snip] >>Robin> It is well known that when magnetic field lines are broken, and >reconnect, considerable energy is released. Where does this energy come >from, and why should it not be equally true here on Earth as it is in the >Solar corona or in the Earth's magnetic tail? > > > >>Remi> Anyway that stuff about sunspots, contorted field lines and SMEs is >thought to occur because the Sun's rotational energy and the energy of the >plasma gets stored in the magnetic field which like an over-stretched >elastic band suddenly releases its energy in finding a newer more simple >configuration. > > > >It is also the mechanism why the photosphere is at 2Million K whilst the >surface is at 6000K. ...which basically is why I brought it up. My point is that this also happens in the Van Allen belts, and those same field lines extend right through the planet, and also present themselves near the surface where we can interact with them. IOW what happens if they are broken and reconnect near the surface instead of out in space? Do we then collect energy dumped into the field by the impinging Solar wind? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 12 08:42:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8CFgUrP016105; Tue, 12 Sep 2006 08:42:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8CFgSrb016084; Tue, 12 Sep 2006 08:42:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 08:42:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=uiHdIeHFvj8E53B80jnnn+fxr9luBtDZbl/GkvLfAd8yBK4q3dG5eoekbqkfTAl11yzAn1VilAD7LcZDMKwjGoyEDypq5DBn26ZTwTCp5KcdRHuHvwdtlYJPrSz9vDiK0hgybL/1uT3JHrWeQqpoYGtpAgt0Q4/clP+crTDyRNM= ; Message-ID: <001301c6d682$09cf4930$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 08:42:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70689 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: The answers are out there Status: RO X-Status: To paraphrase what Trinity (of "Matrix" ilk, non-gospelized) tells Neo in the modern version of "good-news, bad-news": ... "the answers are out there, and they will find you - if you let them. Or, you can find them easily, if you go looking." They are not well-hidden. Their disguises often consist merely of "official neglect" which is maintained by marginalization of the proponents (or the cash equivalent). Occasionally but not often, harsher methods are employed by the Mr. Smiths of the NWO or their bought-and-paid-for Petrocracy, i.e. those few who fashion themselves some kind of super-elite club. The super-elite may own the White House now; as well as many of the boardrooms of corporate America and billions of blood-soaked obscene oil-profits, but they do not own the hearts-and minds - and superior mentality of the Neos in the Nebuchadnezzar, which is the alternative new world order as epitomized by the fine readers in Volandia, among other kindred souls in CyberSpace. Hey ... we need to add a little TNT drama - of the 'us-vs-them' variety - to the energy conundrum, right? And lets add that the underlying question to the above tag-intro is simply: "how do we avoid imported oil?" with all the blood and tears that unholy-addiction has entailed in recent years, and on this post-anniversary message of 9-11. Now for the answer. Superficially, we can avoid importing oil in as little as five years, if we mandate a doubling of MPG in the average new car, and sooner in all commercial trucking. Sure, that mandate will largely only substitute American coal or methane (perhaps some biofuel) for Arab oil, and it will squelch some of the obscene profits of the Petrocracy - but isn't that what it takes to keep us from the General-temptation of meddling in the affairs of other sovereign nations? Of course, the first thing which must be accomplished, by the anti-Smith's of the (a) NWO is fumigating Congress which is known diplomatically as "regime change." The gas/electric hybrid will accomplish this goal now, and there are other viable avenues for doubling gas mileage (and more! even without a major breakthrough of the Steorn, or MPI, or LENR kind - which would hopefully make all this verbiage moot). But assuming that breakthrough will be delayed once again... Today's rambling anti-Petrocracy essay concerns the first important detail of that underlying chemical modality - the one which will permit the doubling of combustion efficiency in an ICE. This answer is "out there," it is non-speculative, in print and proven. Yes, there will always be a Carnot limitation to combustion efficiency; but NO, we are far away from that limitation now; and yet we can and should achieve it fully, and not partially. Water is part of the answer. Chemical bonding in the isolated water molecule is often thought of in terms of a simple "Lewis dot" construction, where oxygen contributes six valence electrons and each hydrogen contributes one. The two hydrogen's are a bit over 90 degrees apart on one side of the molecule and this asymmetry provides most all of the unusual attributes and polarity, which water possesses. The four 'loose' valence electrons associated with the oxygen atom in water represent two "lone pairs"- as electrons in general have an overwhelming propensity to pair. The four valence electrons which are shared by the hydrogen and oxygen atoms represent the unusual intermolecular bonding, which is not purely covalent nor purely hydrogen bonding. BTW, this information all comes paraphrased from "Thiel and Madey" (T&M), mentioned several times by Fred. T&M does have "all the answers" needed for solving the artificial dilemma that the Mr. Smiths of the Petrocracy have let stand over the years. These special interests know that they cannot hide the truth, but they also know that high-level "official neglect" is almost as good as a new-fashioned book-burning Fahrenheit-451 style. Witness to that is the fact this superior treatise is almost unheralded, despite having the answers. LENR stands as another evidence of that "official neglect" assertion. Fortunately, some of the answers which are "out there" in waterfuel art-and-science, and in T&M- are simpler and more robust than in LENR. The two lone pairs of electons in water, mentioned above, enable oxygen to coordinate and temporarily bind and catalyze many reactions with other molecules by acting as an electron donor. This can happen at STP, with the energy being supplied by ambient heat. The key-concept to using this factoid is in the broad subfield *surface chemistry*. BTW, LENR is probably another subset of the broad field of surface chemistry, in that the effect is interfacial. If water chemistry appears as "overunity" it is only in the sense of actually utilizing, or cohering the ambient heat of the environment - and the Gibbs Free energy of certain reactions. Every University professor (of the Mr. Smith variety) will tell you that Gibbs Free energy cannot be utilized for this purpose. What they mean is that - if it can be used, no one is yet doing it. Official neglect. [side note] Gibbs free energy - In thermodynamics, it is a mathematical expression, developed long ago in the 1800s - defined as the energy portion of a thermodynamic system available to do work - and governed by the laws of thermodynamics. It is a factor in determining parameters such as the voltage of an electrochemical cell, and the equilibrium constant for a reversible reaction. Getting back to the subject of interfaces and ambient heat extraction. On any surface, especially a metal or metal oxide, either "lone pair" of the water molecule electrons can interacts, both with the metal substrate, ideally a colloid, and with neighboring molecules, including another water molecule. Here is the key concept which T&M build everything on. H2O is unique in all of surface chemistry - and especially among small molecular absorbates, in that attractive lateral interactions (and hydrogen bonds) ARE comparable in strength to the molecule-substrate interaction. IOW whatever energy is needed to pull-off a chemical reordering - such as 2H2O + O2 --> 2HOOH can be withdrawn from either ambient heat or the reaction enthalpy. This is - plain and simple - "ambient heat extraction," and it is highly efficient. Better living through body chemistry. Sounds simple, but it is profound in operation. More later, Jones (a true anti-Smith) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 12 08:47:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8CFkoTC019484; Tue, 12 Sep 2006 08:46:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8CFkm3w019452; Tue, 12 Sep 2006 08:46:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 08:46:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 11:43:38 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <014701c6d218$47ce0550$c90efea9@TOSHIBA> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8CFkixe019366 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70690 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: Massive oil field found under Gulf Status: O X-Status: Massive oil field found under Gulf Reserves south of New Orleans could rival North Slope, boosting U.S. supplies by 50% http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51837 Chevron and two oil exploration companies announced the discovery of a giant oil reserve in the Gulf of Mexico that could boost the nation's supplies by as much as 50 percent and provide compelling evidence oil is a plentiful deep-earth product made naturally on a continuous basis. Known as the Jack Field, the reserve – some 270 miles southwest of New Orleans – is estimated to hold as much as 15 billion barrels of oil. Authors Jerome R. Corsi and Craig R. Smith say the giant find validates the key thesis of their book, "Black Gold Stranglehold: The Myth of Scarcity and the Politics of Oil ," that oil did not come from the remains of ancient plant and animal life but is made naturally by the Earth. "We have always rejected the theories that oil and natural gas are biological products," Corsi told WND. "Chevron's find in the Gulf of Mexico validates our argument that the Gulf is a huge resource for finding oil and natural gas." The Wall Street Journal reports today the find could boost the nation's current reserves of 29.3 billion barrels by as much as 50 percent. Chevron discovered the field by drilling the deepest to date in the Gulf of Mexico, down 28,175 feet in waters nearly 7,000 feet deep, some seven miles below the surface of the Earth. The second biggest source of oil in the world is Mexico's giant Cantarell field in the Gulf of Mexico near the Yucatan Peninsula. It was discovered in 1976, supposedly after a fisherman named Cantarell reported an oil seep in Campeche Bay. In March, Mexico announced the discovery of a field that could be larger than Cantarell, the Noxal field in the Gulf of Mexico off Veracruz. In "Black Gold Stranglehold," Corsi and Smith argued the theory developed in the Soviet Union in the 1950s by Prof. Nikolai Kudryavtsev that oil is a deep-earth, abiotic product. The theory, the authors wrote, "rejected the contention that oil was formed from the remains of ancient plant and animal life that died millions of years ago. According to Kudryavtsev, oil had nothing to do with the unproved concept of a boggy primeval forest rotting into petroleum. The Soviet scientist ridiculed the idea that an ancient primeval morass of plant and animal remains was covered by sedimentary deposits over millions of years, compressed by millions of more years of heat and pressure." Instead, the abiotic theory argued "oil should be seen as a primordial material that the earth forms and exudes on a continual basis." Corsi and Smith directly challenge the "peak oil" theory advanced in 1956 by Shell Oil's M. King Hubbert. In an interview with WND, Smith posed the following question: "If U.S. proven oil reserves can be increased by 50 percent with one deep-earth oil find in the Gulf of Mexico, who knows how much oil might be found as the technology of deep-water drilling advances and becomes even more economically feasible?" In "Black Gold Stranglehold," Corsi and Smith note the importance of the abiotic theory: The thought that oil might be naturally produced on a regular basis, that oil itself might be a renewable resource, is very threatening to those who have invested their minds into believing that oil is fossil fuel. The logical consequence of the fossil fuel theory of oil has always been that we will run out of oil. After all, there could only be a finite number of ancient forests available to rot into oil. Ancient forests, even if once plentiful, are a finite resource that by definition will become exhausted after they are fully explored and their oil harvested. The logic of the fossil fuel theory is that inevitably we will run out of oil. Corsi and Smith note the power of the abiotic theory: "Could it be that oil is abundant, nearly an inexhaustible resource, if only we drill deep enough?" Prior to the Jack Field discovery, the largest U.S. oil find in the Gulf of Mexico has been the Thunder Horse , about 125 miles southeast of New Orleans. British Petroleum holds a 75-percent interest with ExxonMobil to develop the Thunder Horse. This field, too, is deep-earth oil, with BP and ExxonMobil finding oil under one mile of water and five miles below the seabed. Scientists believe Mexico's richest oil field complex was created when the prehistoric, massive Chicxulub meteor impacted the Earth. "Could it be that the Chicxulub meteor deeply fractured the entire bedrock under the Gulf of Mexico?" Corsi asked in a WND interview. "If so, we might find abundant oil wherever we look as we begin to explore the deeper waters of the Gulf." Earlier this year, Cuba announced plans to hire the communist Chinese to drill for oil some 45 miles off the shores of Florida. This move was made possible by the 1977 agreement under President Jimmy Carter that created for Cuba an "Exclusive Economic Zone" extending from the country's western tip to the north, virtually to Key West, Fla. "If Cuba and communist China believe they too can find oil in the Gulf, we should pull out all stops," argues Smith. "We may be able to bring the price of gasoline down under two dollars a gallon if oil can be found in these huge quantities within our territorial waters. It's crazy to think we should be dependent on foreign oil when we've made Mexico our number two supplier of oil with the reserves Mexico has found in the Gulf." "Thomas Gold should feel vindicated today," Corsi added, referring to the Cornell University astronomer who in 1998 published "The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil Fuels," a book that also challenged the conventional wisdom on the origin of oil. "As an astronomer reading spectrographs," Corsi noted, "Gold knew that hydrocarbon products such as methane are abundant in our solar system. Gold knew that the abundant methane on Titan, the giant moon of Saturn, did not get formed by little dinosaurs up on Titan, or by any other kind of biological material. So far as we know, nothing living has ever been found on Titan." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 12 13:12:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8CKCY1X021897; Tue, 12 Sep 2006 13:12:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8CKCXAv021879; Tue, 12 Sep 2006 13:12:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 13:12:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=NykJU23slKqsodiUvwTOiaRx3erSL1tWRjSgQxCxaU1tjpGuckmiPud87OyS6FgJ63iyc01240ybLl+dZNrL9anMQ6xsn49L8zcsxwNRtgP8kfKKlWXtrIwwTPikrh+HdsTiMVBYEbYYQF83xqVIPT9fgAlQc1Q122I2ld215Ds= ; Message-ID: <0eb701c6d6a7$c5e52890$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 16:12:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <6kkxHC.A.pVF.wSxBFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70691 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: In Memory of.. X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Some of you have been in communication with "Willis" Jenkin, a fairly new member of Vortex. Dr. William Jenkin has also been an active member of the Stiffler ATgroup for several years. Re-visiting Stiffler Scientific's Web Site today http://stifflerscientific.com/ I am sorry to say that I just noticed something new- a Memoriam to Willis. = = = = = = = http://67.76.235.52/memof.asp In Memory of... Dr. William Lewis Jenkin 1937-2006 Dear friend, the three years we have known each other and worked together seems like a lifetime indeed. It is uncommon for two people to meet by chance and find they share a common goal in life with the same passion we did. Your support of my theories and your ability to move my view back into the level will be missed. I will never forget how you told the story of how your nick name 'Willis' came about, that somewhat meek child that was taunted by class mates who coined 'Willis' from 'Will Less'. You learned well and I can assure anyone that you moved far beyond 'Will Less'. Well old friend I understand you had a better offer and we must move on if the offer is right. Rest assured I shall always try to keep the bubble between the lines. Dr. Ronald R. Stiffler Dr. Jenkin you were a profound influence on my life and career. Your uncanny ability to guess weights and pour the exact number of tablets from a bottle was an ability I have never seen before. You so easily turned experimental data into concise mathematical expression showing clearly the correct or incorrect path to follow. I will never forget your sharp mind and wit and will do everything I can to insure that your idea's covering my research are fully tired and tested and I am sure they will prove to be correct. Goodbye Doctor and God bless you for eternity... Elisabeth M. Anderson, Ph.D. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 12 15:09:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8CM9NWt024685; Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:09:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8CM9Jk9024645; Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:09:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:09:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <004101c6d6b8$0f8ea150$26027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: The answers are out there Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:09:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003D_01C6D68E.26199A30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70692 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C6D68E.26199A30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_003E_01C6D68E.26199A30" ------=_NextPart_001_003E_01C6D68E.26199A30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. >The super-elite may own the White House now; as well as many of=20 the boardrooms of corporate America and billions of blood-soaked=20 obscene oil-profits, but they do not own the hearts-and minds -=20 and superior mentality of the Neos in the Nebuchadnezzar, which is=20 the alternative new world order as epitomized by the fine=20 readers in Volandia, among other kindred souls in CyberSpace. Howdy Jones,=20 The board room own the masses, which, as ole Mark Twain once wrote.. = H'aint all the fools in town on our side ,, and h'aint that enough in = any town?=20 People make decisions based on their own self interest given the = opportunity. Big oil affords them the opportunity. Understanding the fundamental laws of human nature is a prerequisite for = control as ole Nebuchadnezzer demonstrated. Also true is that uneasy rests the head that wears the crown again as = ole : Nebbie" learned the hard way. Therein lies the clue to boardroom governance and political power = thinking. Nothing is so sacred that it cannot be sacrificed in order to hold onto = power once tasted. The ultimate high.. RAW POWER Posted on the wall in the beer joint in Dime Box Texas.....Ain't nothin = happening until it has too. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_003E_01C6D68E.26199A30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..
 
>The super-elite may own the White House now; as well as many of =
the=20 boardrooms of corporate America and billions of blood-soaked
obscene = oil-profits, but they do not own the hearts-and minds -
and superior = mentality of the Neos in the Nebuchadnezzar, which is
the = alternative new=20 world order <G> as epitomized by the fine
readers in Volandia, = among=20 other kindred souls in CyberSpace.
 
Howdy Jones,
 
The board room own the masses, which, as ole Mark Twain once = wrote..=20 H'aint all the fools in town on our side ,, and h'aint that enough in = any town?=20
People make decisions based on their own self interest given the=20 opportunity.
Big oil affords them the opportunity.
Understanding the fundamental laws of human nature is a = prerequisite for=20 control as ole Nebuchadnezzer demonstrated.
Also true is that uneasy rests the head that wears the crown again = as ole :=20 Nebbie" learned the hard way.
Therein lies the clue to boardroom governance and political power=20 thinking.
Nothing is so sacred that it cannot be sacrificed in order to hold = onto=20 power once tasted. The ultimate high.. RAW POWER
 
Posted on the wall in the beer joint in Dime Box Texas.....Ain't = nothin=20 happening until it has too.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_003E_01C6D68E.26199A30-- ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C6D68E.26199A30 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003c01c6d6b8$0ee36d30$26027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C6D68E.26199A30-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 12 21:36:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8D4aXZG015542; Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:36:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8D4aWWO015525; Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:36:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:36:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <68A34DFE87D0BE46AF898FFCC65CCF8438F543@caraupermb02.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger@carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:33:19 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6D6ED.BCF414C6" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70694 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6D6ED.BCF414C6 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all, I had the below sent through from another Group, thought some of you may be interested. John. http://www.physorg.com/news76855551.html http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060908194818.htm In a research first that could lead to a new generation of hard drives capable of storing thousands of movies per square inch, physicists at Rice University have decoded the three-dimensional structure of a tornado-like magnetic vortex no larger than a red blood cell. "Understanding the nuances and functions of magnetic vortices is likely going to be a key in creating next-generation magnetic storage devices," said lead researcher Carl Rau, professor of physics and astronomy. "It's widely believed this technology will support storage densities in the range of terabits per square inch, and our group is equally excited about the potential for magnetic processors and for high-speed magnetic RAM." The findings are available online and due to appear in an upcoming issue of Physical Review Letters. Rau and postdoctoral researcher Jian Li used a one-of-a-kind scanning ion microscope to first create and then measure ultra-thin circular disks of soft magnetic cobalt. Their goal was to trap and image a single magnetic vortex, a cone-like structure that's created in the magnetic field at the disk when all the magnetic moments of the atoms in the disk align into uniform concentric circles. However, towards the core of the disk, the magnetic moments point more and more out of the plane of the disk, like a swirling cone. If the vortex spins in a right-handed direction, the cone points up, and if the vortex spins left, the cone points down. In searching for the right sized disk to create the phenomenon, Rau and Li used thin films of cobalt --about the thickness of a cell membrane. They made disks with diameters as large as 38 microns - about half the width of a human hair - and as small as one micron - about the size of a bacterium. The single vortex was found on disks measuring six microns in diameter, slightly smaller than a red blood cell . "Most people are familiar with the vortex: we see it in satellite photos of hurricanes, in whirlpools and in bathtub drains - even in Van Gogh's famous painting 'Starry Night,'" Rau said. "In nanomagnetism, however, vortices are quite hard to see experimentally. Most often, we must infer their existence from some other measurement. "Our high-resolution spin microscope is the exception here," he said. "It allows us to map not just the overall vortex, but also the detailed location and orientation of millions of magnetic moments that combine physical forces to create the overall structure." The instrument Rau and Li used in the study is a scanning ion microscope with polarization analysis, or SIMPA. The device consists of a highly-focused ion beam that fires gallium ions at surfaces of flat cobalt samples. The beam is first used to etch away the cobalt around each circular disk. Then, using a different setting, the gallium ions are fired at the cobalt surface in such a way as to induce the release of electrons. The electrons, which carry specific information about the magnetic state of the cobalt atoms that release them, are captured by a detector and analysed. Rau said better understanding of magnetic vortices could allow breakthroughs in the design of nanostructures for ultra-high-density hard disk media, non-volatile magnetic random access memory and novel magnetic logic gates that could replace volatile semiconductor logic. Compared to regular electronic devices, the magnetic devices would be faster, smaller, use less power, create less heat and they wouldn't lose information when power was turned off. "Imagine if you never had to reboot your computer again," Rau said. Source: Rice University ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6D6ED.BCF414C6 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Physicists trap & map tiny magnetic vortex

Hi all,

I had the below sent through from = another Group, thought some of you may be interested.

John.


http://www.physorg.com/news76855551.html
<= U>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060908194818.htm

In a research first that could lead to a = new generation of hard drives capable of storing thousands of movies = per square inch, physicists at Rice University have decoded the = three-dimensional structure of a tornado-like magnetic vortex no larger = than a red blood cell.

"Understanding the nuances and functions of magnetic vortices is = likely going to be a key in creating next-generation magnetic storage = devices," said lead researcher Carl Rau, professor of physics and = astronomy. "It's widely believed this technology will support = storage densities in the range of terabits per square inch, and our = group is equally excited about the potential for magnetic processors = and for high-speed magnetic RAM."

The findings are available online and due to appear in an upcoming = issue of Physical Review Letters.

Rau and postdoctoral researcher Jian Li used a one-of-a-kind scanning = ion microscope to first create and then measure ultra-thin circular = disks of soft magnetic cobalt. Their goal was to trap and image a = single magnetic vortex, a cone-like structure that's created in the = magnetic = field at the disk when = all the magnetic moments of the atoms in the disk align into uniform = concentric circles. However, towards the core of the disk, the magnetic = moments point more and more out of the plane of the disk, like a = swirling cone. If the vortex spins in a right-handed direction, the = cone points up, and if the vortex spins left, the cone points down.

In searching for the right sized disk to create the phenomenon, Rau and = Li used thin films of cobalt --about the thickness of a cell membrane. = They made disks with diameters as large as 38 microns - about half the = width of a human hair - and as small as one micron - about the size = of a bacterium. The single vortex was found on disks measuring six = microns in diameter, slightly smaller than a red blood = cell.

"Most people are familiar with the vortex: we see it in satellite = photos of hurricanes, in whirlpools and in = bathtub drains - even in Van Gogh's famous painting 'Starry Night,'" = Rau said. "In nanomagnetism, however, vortices are quite hard to = see experimentally. Most often, we must infer their existence from some = other measurement.

"Our high-resolution spin microscope is the exception here," = he said. "It allows us to map not just the overall vortex, but = also the detailed location and orientation of millions of magnetic = moments that combine physical forces to create the overall = structure."

The instrument Rau and Li used in the study is a scanning ion = microscope with polarization analysis, or SIMPA. The device consists of = a highly-focused ion beam that fires gallium ions at surfaces of flat = cobalt samples. The beam is first used to etch away the cobalt around = each circular disk. Then, using a different setting, the gallium = ions are fired at the cobalt surface in such a way = as to induce the release of electrons. The electrons, which carry = specific information about the magnetic state of the cobalt atoms that = release them, are captured by a detector and analysed.

Rau said better understanding of magnetic vortices could allow = breakthroughs in the design of nanostructures for ultra-high-density = hard disk media, non-volatile magnetic random access memory and novel = magnetic logic gates that could replace volatile semiconductor logic. = Compared to regular electronic devices, the magnetic devices would be = faster, smaller, use less power, create less heat and they wouldn't = lose information when power was turned off.

"Imagine if you never had to reboot your computer again," Rau = said.

Source: Rice University

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6D6ED.BCF414C6-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 13 08:34:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8DFXx6R031116; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 08:34:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8DFXvk0031087; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 08:33:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 08:33:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:33:55 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_ec3594e46e15bb0251e4aed42d22f9f2" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20060913153355.A2B93DA1DC@mail0.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70695 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Magnetic Vortices Status: RO X-Status: --=_ec3594e46e15bb0251e4aed42d22f9f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From John, > Physicists trap & map tiny magnetic vortex > > Hi all, > > I had the below sent through from another Group, thought some of you may be interested. > > > John. > > > > http://www.physorg.com/news76855551.html > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060908194818.htm ... The term "magnetic vortex" is an interesting one. I could be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever observed and/or constructed a static "magnetic vortex" on the macro scale. Is that true? If one could generate the equivalent of a magnetic vortex on the macro scale, such as out of an arrangement of Permanent Magnets, this could possibly lead to some interesting consequences. To the best of my knowledge, this appears to be impossible. For one thing, it could possibly violate the the laws of thermodynamics, and we can't have that now, can we! ;-) If anyone knows of anyone who has done this on the macro scale I sure would be obliged if someone could show me where I might find additional information. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/Zazzle --=_ec3594e46e15bb0251e4aed42d22f9f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From John,

> Physicists trap & map tiny magnetic vortex
>
> Hi all,
>
> I had the below sent through from another Group, thought some of you may = be interested.
>
>
> John.
>
>
>
> http://www.physorg.com/news76855551.html
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060908194818.htm

...

The term "magnetic vortex" is an interesting one. I could be wrong, but to = the best of my knowledge nobody has ever observed and/or constructed a stat= ic "magnetic vortex" on the macro scale. Is that true?

If one could generate the equivalent of a magnetic vortex on the macro scal= e, such as out of an arrangement of Permanent Magnets, this could possibly = lead to some interesting consequences. To the best of my knowledge, this ap= pears to be impossible. For one thing, it could possibly violate the the la= ws of thermodynamics, and we can't have that now, can we! ;-)

If anyone knows of anyone who has done this on the macro scale I sure would= be obliged if someone could show me where I might find additional informat= ion.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/Zazzle





--=_ec3594e46e15bb0251e4aed42d22f9f2-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 13 08:38:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8DFcGWa001614; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 08:38:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8DFcFdH001593; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 08:38:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 08:38:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200609131538.k8DFcBdJ065772@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:38:11 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_a36238b726ea56c0f8f3fd1eab1f96bf" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70696 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: EM Drives, revisited Status: O X-Status: --=_a36238b726ea56c0f8f3fd1eab1f96bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recapping the potential ramifications of the highly speculative "EM Drive" proposal. See: http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticleID=295931 (Sorry, Tinyurl.com was down when trying to make the abbreviated version of this link.) If this speculative research turns out to be true, one can quickly extrapolate what the possibilities might quickly lead to, particularly if Mark Golde's RTS Room Temperature Superconducting material were also to become available on the market soon. >From my perspective it seems conceivable that fast and efficient "EM Drives" could open up commercial space exploration of the asteroid belt, where everyone knows that's where the next Gold Gush is likely to exist in the form unlimited raw materials just waiting to be mined. Sometimes I wish I was 20 years old again. Have Space Suit, will travel. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_a36238b726ea56c0f8f3fd1eab1f96bf Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Recapping the potential ramifications of the highly speculative "EM Drive" = proposal.

See:

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticleID=3D295931

(Sorry, Tinyurl.com was down when trying to make the abbreviated version of= this link.)

If this speculative research turns out to be true, one can quickly extrapol= ate what the possibilities might quickly lead to, particularly if Mark Gold= e's RTS Room Temperature Superconducting material were also to become avail= able on the market soon.

>From my perspective it seems conceivable that fast and efficient "EM Drives= " could open up commercial space exploration of the asteroid belt, where ev= eryone knows that's where the next Gold Gush is likely to exist in the form= unlimited raw materials just waiting to be mined.

Sometimes I wish I was 20 years old again.

Have Space Suit, will travel.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks


--=_a36238b726ea56c0f8f3fd1eab1f96bf-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 13 09:07:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8DG6hdx017677; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 09:06:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8DG6gEi017659; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 09:06:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 09:06:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=fbCoSkD8OwQwFAl/B37yeK+G2fu5mbjYjawR8+XZUSj3Y7et2lUugfgbeg8vJj1V; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200693131661881@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:06:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94090aa19f5139bd9e4541ffd62df1c05e4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.83 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70697 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re{ Wind Power vs Steam-Brayton Cycle Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Up to 50 gallons of water per kilowatt-hour! http://www.sandia.gov/energy-water/West/Innis.pdf http://www.netl.doe.gov/technologies/coalpower/ewr/pubs/05_EUEC_Hoffmann_1.pdf Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Up to 50 gallons of water per kilowatt-hour!
 
 
 
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 12 20:22:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8D3LuBD018116; Tue, 12 Sep 2006 20:21:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8D3Ltgc018102; Tue, 12 Sep 2006 20:21:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 20:21:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005b01c6d6e3$8ce7ce80$0302a8c0@DONWDESKTOP> Reply-To: "DonW" From: "DonW" To: Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:20:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70693 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends3 Status: O X-Status: http://www.playfuls.com/news_002157_BMW_Series_7_Comes_Clean_in_April_2007.html BMW today announced the introduction of the new BMW Hydrogen 7, the world's first hydrogen-drive luxury performance automobile. The car -- a vehicle that has undergone the regular Product Development Process -- will be built in a limited series in Europe and driven in the US and other countries by selected users in 2007. It is equipped with an internal combustion engine capable of running either on hydrogen or on gasoline and based on the BMW 7 Series. Hydrogen technology dramatically reduces emissions generated by personal transport and, in particular, minimizes the emission of CO2. Running in the hydrogen mode, the BMW Hydrogen 7 essentially emits nothing but vapor. And, unlike fossil fuels and traditional gasoline, hydrogen is available in virtually infinite supply. With the BMW Hydrogen 7, the BMW Group is laying down a marker for sustainable mobility. This car will play a pioneering role in driving forward hydrogen technologies. BMW has gained an excellent reputation for significantly reducing fuel consumption and CO2 emissions by using ultra efficient, yet very dynamic gasoline engines. Together with clean performance diesel cars and the technologically advanced hybrid systems currently under development within the BMW EfficientDynamics project, the BMW Group has a clear strategy for sustainable mobility with hydrogen as the ultimate goal. With all the comforts and amenities of a non-hydrogen BMW 7 Series, the BMW Hydrogen 7 is powered by a 260 hp twelve-cylinder engine and accelerates from 0-62.1 mph in 9.5 seconds. Top speed is limited electronically to 143 mph. The BMW Hydrogen 7 also features a dual-mode power unit -- controlled at the touch of a button -- that can switch quickly and conveniently from hydrogen to conventional premium gasoline. The car's dual-mode drive provides an overall cruising range of more than 400 miles and enables the driver of a BMW Hydrogen 7 to enjoy virtually unlimited mobility, even when far away from the nearest hydrogen filling station. This technology is a viable solution until the hydrogen infrastructure is fully developed. BMW CleanEnergy: paving the way into the future. The BMW Hydrogen 7 perfectly captures the essence of the BMW CleanEnergy strategy. By using hydrogen produced from water and renewable energy, such as wind, sun or hydropower, in an internal combustion engine, the car's emissions in hydrogen mode are essentially nothing but vapor. And, with this emitted water vapor, the cycle can start again and the dream of sustainable mobility without using fossil fuel resources and without impacting the earth's climate can become a reality. The complete change from a fossil fuel infrastructure to a hydrogen economy will require decades, but with the Hydrogen 7, BMW shows that bringing hydrogen technology to the road is indeed feasible. BMW Hydrogen 7: Industrializing hydrogen technologies. The BMW Hydrogen 7 has successfully completed the entire Product Development Process (PDP) obligatory for all new BMWs. In this process, all components of the new technology were integrated into the overall vehicle according to the same challenging criteria applied to "regular" production vehicles. The BMW Hydrogen 7 is not a hand made concept car, but rather, a milestone in industrializing hydrogen technologies for automotive use. The knowledge gained in the PDP has not only made a decisive contribution to the everyday driving qualities of the BMW Hydrogen 7, but it will also significantly impact the development and production of future hydrogen vehicle concepts, with the principle of dual-mode drive and the features of other components now going through the strict test of everyday driving practice. Dual-mode combustion engine for enhanced flexibility. While cruising range is a significant consideration to consumers in any car, BMW recognizes that it is of critical importance in a hydrogen-powered vehicle, because there is not yet a full network of hydrogen filling stations in the United States. For precisely this reason, the BMW Hydrogen 7 features dual-mode drive technology and a combustion engine capable of running on both hydrogen and gasoline. The cruising range in the hydrogen mode is more than 125 miles, with another 300 miles in the gasoline mode. Thus, the driver of a BMW Hydrogen 7 is able to use the vehicle without problem even when the nearest hydrogen filling station is far away. The BMW Hydrogen 7 clearly proves that liquid hydrogen may by all means be used as a source of energy for the production car. By introducing the BMW Hydrogen 7, the BMW Group establishes powerful momentum for the ongoing development of a supply infrastructure serving above all to set up additional hydrogen filling stations providing sustained mobility on a broad basis also in the future. Two tanks: Smooth transitions and maximum cruise range. To offer the longest conceivable cruising range, the BMW Hydrogen 7 comes with both a conventional 74-litre (16.3 Imp gal) gasoline tank and an additional fuel tank taking up approximately 8 kilos or 17.6 lb of liquid hydrogen. Stored in a high tech tank, liquid hydrogen offers significant advantages in energy density enhancing the cruising range of the hydrogen car. The driver is able to switch from hydrogen to gasoline mode manually by pressing a button on the multifunction steering wheel. Because engine power and torque remain exactly the same regardless of the mode of operation, switching from one mode to another has no effect on the driving behavior and performance of the BMW Hydrogen 7. The control system in BMW Hydrogen 7 gives priority to the use of hydrogen. And, should one of the two types of fuel be fully consumed, the system will automatically switch over to the other type of fuel in the interest of secure, ongoing supply. Luxury class comfort for four. The BMW Hydrogen 7 is a four-seater with the two passengers at the rear enjoying the same high standard of comfort as in one of BMW's "regular"luxury performance vehicles. The BMW Hydrogen 7 comes with an unusually wide range of standard features. In addition to the high level of equipment featured from the start in the BMW 760i, the BMW Hydrogen 7 comes inter alia with climate comfort composite glazing, BMW's high-end automatic air conditioning, auxiliary heating, electric seat heating for the driver, front passenger and rear seats, lumbar supports, electric seat adjustment with memory function on the front seats, ISOFIX child seat fastenings, Park Distance Control, a rain sensor, exterior and interior mirrors with automatic anti-dazzle, Soft Close Automatic for the doors and a headlight assistant. A complete entertainment and communication package adds to the comfort a BMW 7 Series can provide. Progress without compromises. BMW Hydrogen 7 emphatically proves that changing over to an alternative form of energy doesn't mean missing out on superior driving dynamics and comfort. The departure from fossil fuel does not in any way mean giving up the dynamics and performance typical of a BMW. Mobility of tomorrow and driving pleasure of today are compatible, with the drive concept of BMW Hydrogen 7 being directly transferable to future models. Driving a car of this caliber will be just as thrilling in the future as it is today, but at the same time cleaner than ever before. BMW Group: "Sustainability. It can be done." Sustainable action and corporate success belong together. With this clear commitment, the BMW Group has integrated sustainability as part of its corporate strategy for many years and takes responsibility for its products throughout their entire life cycle -- from production to end-of-life recycling. The BMW CleanEnergy strategy aims to create a sustainable future for individual mobility independent of fossil fuels. With BMW EfficientDynamics, the company enhances fuel economy with every new product while still offering the customer the best in class performance. With recycling-optimized product design and life cycle assessment, BMW is helping to reduce the impact on the environment. The use of benchmark technologies in its clean production program significantly reduces the consumption of water and energy during the production process. There are many examples of the advantages of adhering to BMW's mantra,"Sustainability. It can be done." The benefits are enjoyed by not only the company and its associates, but also the environment and, most importantly, the customer. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 13 11:43:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8DIhTWQ019132; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:43:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8DIhORR019091; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:43:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:43:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=j5S9sA9qneck+QgptIJ8Jad3e7Vq0iuHYrMzKizdR0kOpQgkpEdXXRI+hpPxGJbAd8fF+EKM1MJieYZqsRmEkIAjkCeMwIgl5cl/2OXclgE1XoHrfk9hrM+FipuFQ+9/hvxG3gw03qOQxg4QF1kpBVdLSSz61rdWKMINYAw/WIw= ; Message-ID: <0ffa01c6d764$7a044740$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Cc: References: <200609131538.k8DFcBdJ065772@mail2.mx.voyager.net> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 14:43:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0FF7_01C6D742.F2980420" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <3lk6-B.A.DqE.LFFCFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70698 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0FF7_01C6D742.F2980420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Steven, Coincidentally it also appeared in last week Sept.9's cover story for = New Scientist. http://www.newscientist.com/archive.ns Regarding it's speculative nature... On the negative side: I have heard that in one of their experiments they utilized an electric = balance (I'm assuming a digital scale) and that the thick power supply wires might have interfered with one of = their experiments. Others have noted .. It violates (apparently) the law of momentum. There are several other possibilities of artefacts such as heat build-up = causing hot gas to escape from the MW cavity? Or possible coulomb artefact due to charge build-up across the assembly? Or interaction with the earth's magnetic field? And strange that it is only patented in the UK.=20 On the positive side: Anyone familiar with microwave cavity and waveguide work.. can = inexpensively build the unit with a kitchen microwave, sheet copper, and = tubing. - - - In attempting to take a particular "side" in the controversy what are = your potential rewards vs. your potential risks?=20 **IF** we are curious AND we have building experience with waveguides = etc... we might decide to (quietly) attempt a replication. I suspect = some folks are doing just that. Ridicule is anathema to science. So also is believing everything we read. As in all things in life we must find that 'balance'.=20 Colin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: OrionWorks=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:38 AM Subject: [Vo]: EM Drives, revisited Recapping the potential ramifications of the highly speculative "EM = Drive" proposal. See: = http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticleID=3D295931 (Sorry, Tinyurl.com was down when trying to make the abbreviated = version of this link.) If this speculative research turns out to be true, one can quickly = extrapolate what the possibilities might quickly lead to, particularly = if Mark Golde's RTS Room Temperature Superconducting material were also = to become available on the market soon. From my perspective it seems conceivable that fast and efficient "EM = Drives" could open up commercial space exploration of the asteroid belt, = where everyone knows that's where the next Gold Gush is likely to exist = in the form unlimited raw materials just waiting to be mined. Sometimes I wish I was 20 years old again. Have Space Suit, will travel. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks ------=_NextPart_000_0FF7_01C6D742.F2980420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Steven,
 
Coincidentally it also = appeared in last=20 week Sept.9's cover story for New Scientist.
http://www.newscientist.c= om/archive.ns
 
Regarding it's speculative = nature...
 
 
On the negative side:
 
I have heard that in one of their = experiments they=20 utilized an electric balance (I'm assuming a = digital scale)
and that the thick power supply wires = might have=20 interfered with one of their experiments.
Others have noted ..
It violates (apparently) the law of=20 momentum.
There are several other possibilities of = artefacts=20 such as heat build-up causing hot gas to escape from the MW = cavity?
Or possible coulomb artefact due to = charge build-up=20 across the assembly?
Or interaction with the earth's = magnetic=20 field?
And strange that it is only patented in = the UK.=20
 
On the positive side:
 
Anyone familiar with microwave cavity = and waveguide=20 work.. can inexpensively build the unit with a kitchen microwave, = sheet=20 copper, and tubing.
 
- - -
 
In attempting to take a = particular "side" in=20 the controversy what are your potential rewards vs. your potential=20 risks? 
**IF** we are curious AND we have = building=20 experience with waveguides etc... we might decide to (quietly) attempt a = replication. I suspect some folks are doing just that.
 
Ridicule is anathema to = science.
So also is believing everything we = read.
As = in all things in=20 life we must find that 'balance'.
 
Colin
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 OrionWorks
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, = 2006 11:38=20 AM
Subject: [Vo]: EM Drives, = revisited

Recapping the potential ramifications of the highly = speculative=20 "EM Drive" proposal.

See:

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticleID=3D= 295931

(Sorry,=20 Tinyurl.com was down when trying to make the abbreviated version of = this=20 link.)

If this speculative research turns out to be true, one = can=20 quickly extrapolate what the possibilities might quickly lead to, = particularly=20 if Mark Golde's RTS Room Temperature Superconducting material were = also to=20 become available on the market soon.

From my perspective it = seems=20 conceivable that fast and efficient "EM Drives" could open up = commercial space=20 exploration of the asteroid belt, where everyone knows that's where = the next=20 Gold Gush is likely to exist in the form unlimited raw materials just = waiting=20 to be mined.

Sometimes I wish I was 20 years old = again.

Have=20 Space Suit, will travel.

Regards,
Steven Vincent=20 = Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks


------=_NextPart_000_0FF7_01C6D742.F2980420-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 13 18:47:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8E1kslO020660; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:46:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8E1kqhh020638; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:46:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:46:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Massive oil field found under Gulf Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 11:46:36 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <93dhg2hrspnh1vmpg7nkje20i2b888jt06@4ax.com> References: <014701c6d218$47ce0550$c90efea9@TOSHIBA> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 14 Sep 2006 01:46:35 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8E1kejc020562 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70699 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Tue, 12 Sep 2006 11:43:38 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Known as the Jack Field, the reserve – some 270 miles southwest of New >Orleans – is estimated to hold as much as 15 billion barrels of oil. ..all of 2 years worth. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 13 18:56:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8E1uXUA025464; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:56:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8E1uVxi025440; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:56:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:56:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Massive oil field found under Gulf Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 11:56:16 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6fdhg2h5ooqvt326mpqv5hcmidua9ir225@4ax.com> References: <014701c6d218$47ce0550$c90efea9@TOSHIBA> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 14 Sep 2006 01:56:16 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8E1uHIE025317 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70700 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Tue, 12 Sep 2006 11:43:38 -0500: Hi, [snip] >"As an astronomer reading spectrographs," Corsi noted, "Gold knew that >hydrocarbon products such as methane are abundant in our solar system. Gold >knew that the abundant methane on Titan, the giant moon of Saturn, did not >get formed by little dinosaurs up on Titan, or by any other kind of >biological material. So far as we know, nothing living has ever been found >on Titan." > Both Oxygen and Carbon form part of the carbon fusion cycle, so IMO both should be present in nearly equal quantities. Oxygen is the most abundant element on Earth => there should be lots of carbon in the Earth, but perhaps most of it is tied up in carbonates (marble). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 13 19:12:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8E2CGmA002900; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:12:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8E2CErn002877; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:12:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:12:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TMNWsNrq3+qtOucjTkVsbBfd7hksb/DzHqBNqp4RqnNzubnz0hgXs0SFNmYRzySm+1tSutiYTgqs4r3SHDqcKHBRxpnoplXLTM2Va1PQFizTSPB4AN8CXKdU6LisdmQheACb7qClEQwl5xy5U6U9JvLrQEpUnKqvfsPE1nBEUUQ= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:12:12 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Massive oil field found under Gulf In-Reply-To: <93dhg2hrspnh1vmpg7nkje20i2b888jt06@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <014701c6d218$47ce0550$c90efea9@TOSHIBA> <93dhg2hrspnh1vmpg7nkje20i2b888jt06@4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70701 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 9/13/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > ..all of 2 years worth. More like 1.25 yr @ 20 bbl/yr. The more interesting story is the claim of an abiotic source. ;-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 13 19:21:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8E2L4EX009821; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:21:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8E2L3bN009796; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:21:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:21:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 21:20:59 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_f765c82072595bfcff9437f36790ba3f" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 66.168.30.131 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70702 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: --=_f765c82072595bfcff9437f36790ba3f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Colin, Regarding this newfangled EM Drive, some things don't add up from my point of view. In one article it was theorized by the researchers that the "force" only works at maximum efficiency if the operating EMDrive is stationary, that is, when it isn't moving. They went on to speculate that the force emanating from the EMDrive weakens as velocity accumulates. It was therefore suggested that the EMDrive (if it could be made strong enough while in the stationary position) could only be used as a kind of anti/counter gravity field. Kind of like a hovercraft. It was suggested that would then need to employ a more prosaic, secondary force to propel the vehicle in any direction. I have a big problem with this kind of logic. It all comes down to what one understands about Einstin's theory of relativity. It's all "relative", as they say. Whose is to say that the stationary DMDRIve object is really stationary. To someone traveling at a constant speed of 2000 mph relative to the EMDrive object, from that person's POV the EM Drive craft is speeding at a constant speed of 2000 mph. Therefore, from the stationary person's perspective the DMDrive should not operate as efficiently as compared to an individual who is actually traveling at the same speed as the DMDrive object. That's what the researchers seem to be implying. Such logic clearly produces two conflicting POV's, where one individual (moving at the same speed as the object) perceives the force from the DMDrive as greater than the forced as perceived by the other individual (who is stationary). Huston, we have a problem. Something doesn't add up right here. The only way I think they could get around this seeming contradiction would be if the alleged weakening of the EMDrive force only becomes noticeable as the object approaches the speed of light, that is, from the perspective of a stationary observer. IOW, the weakening would manifest on the same grand scale as how objects are perceived to flatten (and gain mass) as they approach the speed of light, again as perceived by individuals at a stationary position. However, when one reads the article this doesn't appear to be the case. The article seems to imply that the EMDrive force weakens pretty soon after it speeds up implying that the effects of relativity play virtually no role whatsoever. This would appear to be a blatant contradiction of logic. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks > > > Hi Steven, > > Coincidentally it also appeared in last > week Sept.9's cover story for New Scientist. > http://www.newscientist.com/archive.ns > > Regarding it's speculative nature... > > > On the negative side: > > I have heard that in one of their experiments they > utilized an electric balance (I'm assuming a digital scale) > and that the thick power supply wires might have > interfered with one of their experiments. > Others have noted .. > It violates (apparently) the law of > momentum.There are several other possibilities of artefacts > such as heat build-up causing hot gas to escape from the MW cavity? > Or possible coulomb artefact due to charge build-up > across the assembly? > Or interaction with the earth's magnetic > field? > And strange that it is only patented in the UK. > > > On the positive side: > > Anyone familiar with microwave cavity and waveguide > work.. can inexpensively build the unit with a kitchen microwave, sheet > copper, and tubing. > > - - - > > In attempting to take a particular "side" in > the controversy what are your potential rewards vs. your potential > risks? > **IF** we are curious AND we have building > experience with waveguides etc... we might decide to (quietly) attempt a > replication. I suspect some folks are doing just that. > > Ridicule is anathema to science. > So also is believing everything we > read. > As in all things in > life we must find that 'balance'. > > Colin > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > OrionWorks > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:38 > AM > Subject: [Vo]: EM Drives, revisited > Recapping the potential ramifications of the highly speculative > "EM Drive" proposal.See:http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticleID=295931(Sorry, > Tinyurl.com was down when trying to make the abbreviated version of this > link.)If this speculative research turns out to be true, one can > quickly extrapolate what the possibilities might quickly lead to, particularly > if Mark Golde's RTS Room Temperature Superconducting material were also to > become available on the market soon.From my perspective it seems > conceivable that fast and efficient "EM Drives" could open up commercial space > exploration of the asteroid belt, where everyone knows that's where the next > Gold Gush is likely to exist in the form unlimited raw materials just waiting > to be mined.Sometimes I wish I was 20 years old again.Have > Space Suit, will travel.Regards,Steven Vincent > Johnsonwww.OrionWorks.comwww.zazzle.com/orionworks > --=_f765c82072595bfcff9437f36790ba3f Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Colin,

Regarding this newfangled EM Drive, some things don't add up from my point = of view. In one article it was theorized by the researchers that the "force= " only works at maximum efficiency if the operating EMDrive is stationary, = that is, when it isn't moving. They went on to speculate that the force ema= nating from the EMDrive weakens as velocity accumulates. It was therefore s= uggested that the EMDrive (if it could be made strong enough while in the s= tationary position) could only be used as a kind of anti/counter gravity fi= eld. Kind of like a hovercraft. It was suggested that would then need to em= ploy a more prosaic, secondary force to propel the vehicle in any direction= .

I have a big problem with this kind of logic. It all comes down to what one= understands about Einstin's theory of relativity. It's all "relative", as = they say. Whose is to say that the stationary DMDRIve object is really stat= ionary. To someone traveling at a constant speed of 2000 mph relative to th= e EMDrive object, from that person's POV the EM Drive craft is speeding at = a constant speed of 2000 mph. Therefore, from the stationary person's persp= ective the DMDrive should not operate as efficiently as compared to an indi= vidual who is actually traveling at the same speed as the DMDrive object. T= hat's what the researchers seem to be implying.

Such logic clearly produces two conflicting POV's, where one individual (mo= ving at the same speed as the object) perceives the force from the DMDrive = as greater than the forced as perceived by the other individual (who is sta= tionary). Huston, we have a problem.

Something doesn't add up right here.

The only way I think they could get around this seeming contradiction would= be if the alleged weakening of the EMDrive force only becomes noticeable a= s the object approaches the speed of light, that is, from the perspective o= f a stationary observer. IOW, the weakening would manifest on the same gran= d scale as how objects are perceived to flatten (and gain mass) as they app= roach the speed of light, again as perceived by individuals at a stationary= position. However, when one reads the article this doesn't appear to be th= e case. The article seems to imply that the EMDrive force weakens pretty so= on after it speeds up implying that the effects of relativity play virtuall= y no role whatsoever.

This would appear to be a blatant contradiction of logic.


Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks




>
>
> Hi Steven,
>
> Coincidentally it also appeared in last
> week Sept.9's cover story for New Scientist.
> http://www.newscientist.com/archive.ns
>
> Regarding it's speculative nature...
>
>
> On the negative side:
>
> I have heard that in one of their experiments they
> utilized an electric balance (I'm assuming a digital scale)
> and that the thick power supply wires might have
> interfered with one of their experiments.
> Others have noted ..
> It violates (apparently) the law of
> momentum.There are several other possibilities of artefacts
> such as heat build-up causing hot gas to escape from the MW cavity?
> Or possible coulomb artefact due to charge build-up
> across the assembly?
> Or interaction with the earth's magnetic
> field?
> And strange that it is only patented in the UK.
>
>
> On the positive side:
>
> Anyone familiar with microwave cavity and waveguide
> work.. can inexpensively build the unit with a kitchen microwave, sheet <= br /> > copper, and tubing.
>
> - - -
>
> In attempting to take a particular "side" in
> the controversy what are your potential rewards vs. your potential
> risks?
> **IF** we are curious AND we have building
> experience with waveguides etc... we might decide to (quietly) attempt a =
> replication. I suspect some folks are doing just that.
>
> Ridicule is anathema to science.
> So also is believing everything we
> read.
> As in all things in
> life we must find that 'balance'.
>
> Colin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From:
> OrionWorks
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:38
> AM
> Subject: [Vo]: EM Drives, revisited
> Recapping the potential ramifications of the highly speculative
> "EM Drive" proposal.See:http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.a= spx?liArticleID=3D295931(Sorry,
> Tinyurl.com was down when trying to make the abbreviated version of thi= s
> link.)If this speculative research turns out to be true, one can
> quickly extrapolate what the possibilities might quickly lead to, parti= cularly
> if Mark Golde's RTS Room Temperature Superconducting material were also= to
> become available on the market soon.From my perspective it seems
> conceivable that fast and efficient "EM Drives" could open up commercia= l space
> exploration of the asteroid belt, where everyone knows that's where the= next
> Gold Gush is likely to exist in the form unlimited raw materials just w= aiting
> to be mined.Sometimes I wish I was 20 years old again.Have
> Space Suit, will travel.Regards,Steven Vincent
> Johnsonwww.OrionWorks.comwww.zazzle.com/orionworks
>
--=_f765c82072595bfcff9437f36790ba3f-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 13 19:23:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8E2N7YC011009; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:23:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8E2N5I0010989; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:23:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:23:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: EM Drives, revisited Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 12:23:02 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <200609131538.k8DFcBdJ065772@mail2.mx.voyager.net> In-Reply-To: <200609131538.k8DFcBdJ065772@mail2.mx.voyager.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 14 Sep 2006 02:23:02 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8E2N3uV010970 Resent-Message-ID: <6DsMD.A.prC.J0LCFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70703 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to OrionWorks's message of Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:38:11 -0500: Hi, [snip] >From my perspective it seems conceivable that fast and efficient "EM Drives" could open up commercial space exploration of the asteroid belt, where everyone knows that's where the next Gold Gush is likely to exist in the form unlimited raw materials just waiting to be mined. > >Sometimes I wish I was 20 years old again. While true that the asteroids will one day be mined, I doubt the resultant products will come back to Earth. No point. We have more than adequate raw materials here already. We just need cheap energy to recycle them, and also to make low grade ore deposits economical. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 13 20:14:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8E3DYuT007223; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:13:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8E3DXUY007192; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:13:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:13:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 13:13:30 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> In-Reply-To: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 14 Sep 2006 03:13:29 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8E3DUg0007151 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70704 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to OrionWorks's message of Wed, 13 Sep 2006 21:20:59 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Hi Colin, > >Regarding this newfangled EM Drive, some things don't add up from my point of view. In one article it was theorized by the researchers that the "force" only works at maximum efficiency if the operating EMDrive is stationary, that is, when it isn't moving. They went on to speculate that the force emanating from the EMDrive weakens as velocity accumulates. I think the most accurate statement that I can recollect was that it draws power as it accelerates. This power comes from that resonating in the chamber, which of course reduces the force. This shouldn't really come as a surprise. They aren't claiming a free energy device. All it really means is that energy needs to be added at the same rate at which it is converted into kinetic/gravitational energy IMO. So one needs to have a MW reactor on board. So what? Look at it from this point of view:- A certain amount of power is required just to counteract the force of gravity, and cover losses. If more power is added, then the lifting force increases, and the craft rises consuming any excess supplied. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 13 20:22:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8E3MSNw012283; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:22:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8E3MQFE012255; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:22:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:22:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Robin Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 13:22:13 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <010201c6d65a$b9821ab0$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> In-Reply-To: <010201c6d65a$b9821ab0$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 14 Sep 2006 03:22:12 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8E3ME8E012028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70705 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Tue, 12 Sep 2006 12:00:55 +0100: Hi, [snip] >May be, but not with some frigging wheel with magnets on it made by a bunch >of self-publicity junkies a la Steorn or SMOT. > >Without expending too much time on non-starters, just devise some >heuristics. How can that be? You already said yourself that rotation of the bodies involved is what gets the lines tangled. So if the Earth's field lines can be concentrated locally, then twisted till they "snap" we might get see something interesting. As everyone knows, magnetic conductors tend to concentrate the field lines in their vicinity. So what happens when a North South oriented magnetic conductor is rotated? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 13 20:30:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8E3TvBK017979; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:29:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8E3Tu8H017956; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:29:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:29:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 13:29:52 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 14 Sep 2006 03:29:51 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8E3TroO017925 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70706 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 14 Sep 2006 13:13:30 +1000: Hi, [snip] BTW, if you take a look at the current drive, it gives one pause when considering "top hat" shaped UFOs. Perhaps "they" have finally decided to start leaking "black" technology. The old primitive technology that they no longer use. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 14 04:00:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8EB021B004198; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:00:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8EB00lD004155; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:00:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:00:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=Eo4kKloanY+AdRSo44lQwkEGxLqFiH+nI21n0CiCXmzVe/QzQOGc6oY41O0BKepZRi6Tpun9Olkf+mvmmzR8bUiqRBn+wyMdRglXheYR5mvgux0VjzrT4C2PDweNCVFX2hfFYSPkxbuDju7yw7I8D3lclfKKYG0gJT330rMdmhQ= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Robin Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 11:59:56 +0100 Message-ID: <012001c6d7ec$ed556c50$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcbXrf/xfze9P7GISqKuxpQV7L+GdgAPob+A Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70707 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, you've either got the knack or you haven't. Those SMOT, Steorn, Shawyer folks are amateurs. Anyway about your Van Allen Belt ideas, why not just use a search coil and see what you pick up. I bet you'd get a large emf at the time of a CME but we already knew that. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] Sent: 14 September 2006 04:22 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Robin In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Tue, 12 Sep 2006 12:00:55 +0100: Hi, [snip] >May be, but not with some frigging wheel with magnets on it made by a bunch >of self-publicity junkies a la Steorn or SMOT. > >Without expending too much time on non-starters, just devise some >heuristics. How can that be? You already said yourself that rotation of the bodies involved is what gets the lines tangled. So if the Earth's field lines can be concentrated locally, then twisted till they "snap" we might get see something interesting. As everyone knows, magnetic conductors tend to concentrate the field lines in their vicinity. So what happens when a North South oriented magnetic conductor is rotated? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 14 04:01:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8EB0rTY004616; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:00:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8EB0pRU004600; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:00:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:00:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=LFbj4QVvfh3P+iulzWl0rUimLh3TAiSsSiREQGWPtx7b8iHyUSeXHOVZcubAVSPYV/YmdJw6zrYQgYL80iQBwo5XNTAzytD+1Rx/j434YP+C1LUQE8rOWc071FH+FCJWQrz9RfF8ZFebczdJj1nEdhR4dfJxaBchBoGuuK0MOOw= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Robin Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 12:00:48 +0100 Message-ID: <012101c6d7ed$0a6ec390$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcbXrf/xfze9P7GISqKuxpQV7L+GdgAPob+A Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70708 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, you've either got the knack or you haven't. Those SMOT, Steorn, Shawyer folks are amateurs. Anyway about your Van Allen Belt ideas, why not just use a search coil and see what you pick up. I bet you'd get a large emf at the time of a CME but we already knew that. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] Sent: 14 September 2006 04:22 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Robin In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Tue, 12 Sep 2006 12:00:55 +0100: Hi, [snip] >May be, but not with some frigging wheel with magnets on it made by a bunch >of self-publicity junkies a la Steorn or SMOT. > >Without expending too much time on non-starters, just devise some >heuristics. How can that be? You already said yourself that rotation of the bodies involved is what gets the lines tangled. So if the Earth's field lines can be concentrated locally, then twisted till they "snap" we might get see something interesting. As everyone knows, magnetic conductors tend to concentrate the field lines in their vicinity. So what happens when a North South oriented magnetic conductor is rotated? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 14 04:10:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8EBA89w011417; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:10:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8EBA7JH011397; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:10:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:10:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index; b=glN9q84TAIx+lJ8Tpu0JPFNt240WTJLjhdy2upYqKg4B04VDW9hVimFNzG3yMWzcztTWQw5+cQCM+Bsf4FF335L6m15KquQrrG3J9TYACInLlC05crz/ur555fffS06TEzkoVO5L40rpvJXUd06zqt0TUXxkvw/WhkoAJxnPyyI= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 12:10:05 +0100 Message-ID: <012201c6d7ee$56067590$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0123_01C6D7F6.B7CADD90" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbXphfFN670kD+dQm+858rZ2RPG3AARdU0wAACX+9A= Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70709 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0123_01C6D7F6.B7CADD90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's obvious, it takes a few second for the effect to start and works best at low speed - it's a jet engine, the cavity has to warm up first. I'd go easy if you want to try this at home with an old microwave mind you don't cook yourself especially your knackers if you want kids. _____ From: OrionWorks [mailto:ow01@voyager.net] Sent: 14 September 2006 03:21 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Hi Colin, Regarding this newfangled EM Drive, some things don't add up from my point of view. In one article it was theorized by the researchers that the "force" only works at maximum efficiency if the operating EMDrive is stationary, that is, when it isn't moving. They went on to speculate that the force emanating from the EMDrive weakens as velocity accumulates. It was therefore suggested that the EMDrive (if it could be made strong enough while in the stationary position) could only be used as a kind of anti/counter gravity field. Kind of like a hovercraft. It was suggested that would then need to employ a more prosaic, secondary force to propel the vehicle in any direction. I have a big problem with this kind of logic. It all comes down to what one understands about Einstin's theory of relativity. It's all "relative", as they say. Whose is to say that the stationary DMDRIve object is really stationary. To someone traveling at a constant speed of 2000 mph relative to the EMDrive object, from that person's POV the EM Drive craft is speeding at a constant speed of 2000 mph. Therefore, from the stationary person's perspective the DMDrive should not operate as efficiently as compared to an individual who is actually traveling at the same speed as the DMDrive object. That's what the researchers seem to be implying. Such logic clearly produces two conflicting POV's, where one individual (moving at the same speed as the object) perceives the force from the DMDrive as greater than the forced as perceived by the other individual (who is stationary). Huston, we have a problem. Something doesn't add up right here. The only way I think they could get around this seeming contradiction would be if the alleged weakening of the EMDrive force only becomes noticeable as the object approaches the speed of light, that is, from the perspective of a stationary observer. IOW, the weakening would manifest on the same grand scale as how objects are perceived to flatten (and gain mass) as they approach the speed of light, again as perceived by individuals at a stationary position. However, when one reads the article this doesn't appear to be the case. The article seems to imply that the EMDrive force weakens pretty soon after it speeds up implying that the effects of relativity play virtually no role whatsoever. This would appear to be a blatant contradiction of logic. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks > > > Hi Steven, > > Coincidentally it also appeared in last > week Sept.9's cover story for New Scientist. > http://www.newscientist.com/archive.ns > > Regarding it's speculative nature... > > > On the negative side: > > I have heard that in one of their experiments they > utilized an electric balance (I'm assuming a digital scale) > and that the thick power supply wires might have > interfered with one of their experiments. > Others have noted .. > It violates (apparently) the law of > momentum.There are several other possibilities of artefacts > such as heat build-up causing hot gas to escape from the MW cavity? > Or possible coulomb artefact due to charge build-up > across the assembly? > Or interaction with the earth's magnetic > field? > And strange that it is only patented in the UK. > > > On the positive side: > > Anyone familiar with microwave cavity and waveguide > work.. can inexpensively build the unit with a kitchen microwave, sheet > copper, and tubing. > > - - - > > In attempting to take a particular "side" in > the controversy what are your potential rewards vs. your potential > risks? > **IF** we are curious AND we have building > experience with waveguides etc... we might decide to (quietly) attempt a > replication. I suspect some folks are doing just that. > > Ridicule is anathema to science. > So also is believing everything we > read. > As in all things in > life we must find that 'balance'. > > Colin > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > OrionWorks > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:38 > AM > Subject: [Vo]: EM Drives, revisited > Recapping the potential ramifications of the highly speculative > "EM Drive" proposal.See:http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticleID= 295931(Sorry, > Tinyurl.com was down when trying to make the abbreviated version of this > link.)If this speculative research turns out to be true, one can > quickly extrapolate what the possibilities might quickly lead to, particularly > if Mark Golde's RTS Room Temperature Superconducting material were also to > become available on the market soon.From my perspective it seems > conceivable that fast and efficient "EM Drives" could open up commercial space > exploration of the asteroid belt, where everyone knows that's where the next > Gold Gush is likely to exist in the form unlimited raw materials just waiting > to be mined.Sometimes I wish I was 20 years old again.Have > Space Suit, will travel.Regards,Steven Vincent > Johnsonwww.OrionWorks.comwww.zazzle.com/orionworks > ------=_NextPart_000_0123_01C6D7F6.B7CADD90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It’s obvious, it takes a few = second for the effect to start and works best at low speed – it’s a = jet engine, the cavity has to warm up first.

 

I’d go easy if you want to = try this at home with an old microwave mind you don’t cook yourself = especially your knackers if you want kids.

 

From: OrionWorks [mailto:ow01@voyager.net]
Sent: 14 September 2006 = 03:21
To: = vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: =

 

Hi Colin,

Regarding this newfangled EM Drive, some things don't add up from my point of view. In one article it was = theorized by the researchers that the "force" only works at maximum = efficiency if the operating EMDrive is stationary, that is, when it isn't moving. = They went on to speculate that the force emanating from the EMDrive weakens = as velocity accumulates. It was therefore suggested that the EMDrive (if it = could be made strong enough while in the stationary position) could only be = used as a kind of anti/counter gravity field. Kind of like a hovercraft. It was = suggested that would then need to employ a more prosaic, secondary force to propel = the vehicle in any direction.

I have a big problem with this kind of logic. It all comes down to what = one understands about Einstin's theory of relativity. It's all "relative", as they say. Whose is to say that the stationary = DMDRIve object is really stationary. To someone traveling at a constant speed of = 2000 mph relative to the EMDrive object, from that person's POV the = EM Drive = craft is speeding at a constant speed of 2000 mph. Therefore, from the stationary person's perspective the DMDrive should not operate as efficiently as = compared to an individual who is actually traveling at the same speed as the = DMDrive object. That's what the researchers seem to be implying.

Such logic clearly produces two conflicting POV's, where one individual = (moving at the same speed as the object) perceives the force from the DMDrive as greater than the forced as perceived by the other individual (who is stationary). Huston, we have a problem.

Something doesn't add up right here.

The only way I think they could get around this seeming contradiction = would be if the alleged weakening of the EMDrive force only becomes noticeable as = the object approaches the speed of light, that is, from the perspective of a = stationary observer. IOW, the weakening would manifest on the same grand scale as = how objects are perceived to flatten (and gain mass) as they approach the = speed of light, again as perceived by individuals at a stationary position. = However, when one reads the article this doesn't appear to be the case. The = article seems to imply that the EMDrive force weakens pretty soon after it = speeds up implying that the effects of relativity play virtually no role = whatsoever.

This would appear to be a blatant contradiction of logic.


Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks




>
>
> Hi Steven,
>
> Coincidentally it also appeared in last
> week Sept.9's cover story for New Scientist.
> http://www.newscientist.com/archive.ns
>
> Regarding it's speculative nature...
>
>
> On the negative side:
>
> I have heard that in one of their experiments they
> utilized an electric balance (I'm assuming a digital scale)
> and that the thick power supply wires might have
> interfered with one of their experiments.
> Others have noted ..
> It violates (apparently) the law of
> momentum.There are several other possibilities of artefacts
> such as heat build-up causing hot gas to escape from the MW = cavity?
> Or possible coulomb artefact due to charge build-up
> across the assembly?
> Or interaction with the earth's magnetic
> field?
> And strange that it is only patented in the UK.
>
>
> On the positive side:
>
> Anyone familiar with microwave cavity and waveguide
> work.. can inexpensively build the unit with a kitchen microwave, = sheet
> copper, and tubing.
>
> - - -
>
> In attempting to take a particular "side" in
> the controversy what are your potential rewards vs. your potential =
> risks?
> **IF** we are curious AND we have building
> experience with waveguides etc... we might decide to (quietly) = attempt a
> replication. I suspect some folks are doing just that.
>
> Ridicule is anathema to science.
> So also is believing everything we
> read.
> As in all things in
> life we must find that 'balance'.
>
> Colin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From:
> OrionWorks
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:38
> AM
> Subject: [Vo]: EM Drives, revisited
> Recapping the potential ramifications of the highly speculative =
> "EM = Drive" proposal.See:http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticle= ID=3D295931(Sorry,
> Tinyurl.com was down when trying to make the abbreviated version of = this
> link.)If this speculative research turns out to be true, one can =
> quickly extrapolate what the possibilities might quickly lead to, particularly
> if Mark Golde's RTS Room Temperature Superconducting material were = also to
> become available on the market soon.From my perspective it seems =
> conceivable that fast and efficient "EM Drives" could = open up commercial space
> exploration of the asteroid belt, where everyone knows that's where = the next
> Gold Gush is likely to exist in the form unlimited raw materials = just waiting
> to be mined.Sometimes I wish I was 20 years old again.Have
> Space Suit, will travel.Regards,Steven Vincent
> Johnsonwww.OrionWorks.comwww.zazzle.com/orionworks
>

------=_NextPart_000_0123_01C6D7F6.B7CADD90-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 14 04:58:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8EBwUdu004393; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:58:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8EBwSU9004367; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:58:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:58:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=EOJHjRr+VVBJMEwWi1Elbl9vNzjXkfE1AB6xHDoi7xCHGGQQ6tmyqcY0L44dGEhoDHBWA20dpXvO0wQI0lw2NpALxr1tHw4rSAADHo7Vy1/hEmqA3NjqdNN9lr5o0jztZ8h9GgS5jEfBnH2jF8enuOl0n4QMPRb9+2s8N4aeotY= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 23:58:27 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Robin In-Reply-To: <012101c6d7ed$0a6ec390$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8300_5176580.1158235107361" References: <012101c6d7ed$0a6ec390$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70710 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_8300_5176580.1158235107361 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline My understanding was that magnetic fields weren't really 'lines' but a smooth field and were never really cut or broken, this thread sounds like bunk I'm afraid. How far apart are these lines? if I was small I guess I could navigate around them and not feel a field. Can I tie the lines in a knot? I think your taking the whole line this far too literally, it's just a cruch, Do you think the magnetic lines come out of one end on a magnet and go in the other too? On 9/14/06, Remi Cornwall wrote: > > Robin, you've either got the knack or you haven't. Those SMOT, Steorn, > Shawyer folks are amateurs. > > Anyway about your Van Allen Belt ideas, why not just use a search coil and > see what you pick up. I bet you'd get a large emf at the time of a CME but > we already knew that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] > Sent: 14 September 2006 04:22 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Robin > > In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Tue, 12 Sep 2006 12:00:55 > +0100: > Hi, > [snip] > >May be, but not with some frigging wheel with magnets on it made by a > bunch > >of self-publicity junkies a la Steorn or SMOT. > > > >Without expending too much time on non-starters, just devise some > >heuristics. How can that be? > > You already said yourself that rotation of the bodies involved is > what gets the lines tangled. So if the Earth's field lines can be > concentrated locally, then twisted till they "snap" we might get > see something interesting. As everyone knows, magnetic conductors > tend to concentrate the field lines in their vicinity. So what > happens when a North South oriented magnetic conductor is rotated? > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > ------=_Part_8300_5176580.1158235107361 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline My understanding was that magnetic fields weren't really 'lines' but a smooth field and were never really cut or broken, this thread sounds like bunk I'm afraid.

How far apart are these lines? if I was small I guess I could navigate around them and not feel a field.

Can I tie the lines in a knot?

I think your taking the whole line this far too literally, it's just a cruch, Do you think the magnetic lines come out of one end on a magnet and go in the other too?

On 9/14/06, Remi Cornwall <remicornwall@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Robin, you've either got the knack or you haven't. Those SMOT, Steorn,
Shawyer folks are amateurs.

Anyway about your Van Allen Belt ideas, why not just use a search coil and
see what you pick up. I bet you'd get a large emf at the time of a CME but
we already knew that.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au]
Sent: 14 September 2006 04:22
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Robin

In reply to  Remi Cornwall's message of Tue, 12 Sep 2006 12:00:55
+0100:
Hi,
[snip]
>May be, but not with some frigging wheel with magnets on it made by a bunch
>of self-publicity junkies a la Steorn or SMOT.
>
>Without expending too much time on non-starters, just devise some
>heuristics. How can that be?

You already said yourself that rotation of the bodies involved is
what gets the lines tangled. So if the Earth's field lines can be
concentrated locally, then twisted till they "snap" we might get
see something interesting. As everyone knows, magnetic conductors
tend to concentrate the field lines in their vicinity. So what
happens when a North South oriented magnetic conductor is rotated?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.


------=_Part_8300_5176580.1158235107361-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 14 06:24:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8EDOVVL021681; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 06:24:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8EDOUJe021666; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 06:24:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 06:24:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=h1G95tEm0pkAvnVoaxLnwCrXrn62ZT5zTylDTjiJbTCreDEwzIutZlm6ainZVCbsz25KGQkqQX5OoOUqnArQUc0QS2SxRlVDw+YXUJx8QE29Bbm+Ytsltl+i2IHq9L/5HHkkbvurs/Q/uqUMKtGf4Z1BqUDKCCST/sLdNiWJfxs= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Robin Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:24:30 +0100 Message-ID: <013201c6d801$1d620d90$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0133_01C6D809.7F267590" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcbX9YZ9+vvoZTcoTBOEFy4u4oYIlgACN1zA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70711 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0133_01C6D809.7F267590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Those 'lines' would just be 'contours' indicating (like iso-bars) constant field strength. There is no law for 'continuity of lines' but continuity of magnetic flux. All that is happening when you have conductive flowing plasma is that field lines are associated with the flow of this flux. In the case of the sun there comes a point where the magnetic forces exceed the hydrodynamic forces such that the plasma takes up a simpler configuration with respect to the field. Consider this: imagine at the equator of the sun there is a net flow of plasma circumferentially with rotation (also radial convection cells underneath), each convection cell looks like a solenoid and you'd get a North and South pole astride the equator. Now factor in other effects, such as rotation speed based on latitude, Corollis forces etc. and the current distribution and hence field becomes more contorted - the field lines will follow the plasma which gets stratiated (as in strata). What happens then is that the field lines get stratiated too. The packed field lines means a large change in magnetic potential - it is an energy storage mechanism, the rotational energy and heat energy of the sun gets stored in the plasma by hydrodynamic and electrodynamic effects (charged particles forced to do work against a certain field configuration and held there by mechanical forces). There comes appoint where the 'liquid' is put under immense shear by these electromagnetic forces and the flow suddenly changes to a simpler configuration. The excess energy is released in a burst of em radiation, prominences etc. I can't see what this has to do with a SMOT or a Steorn so you are right, this thread is bunk. _____ From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com] Sent: 14 September 2006 12:58 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Robin My understanding was that magnetic fields weren't really 'lines' but a smooth field and were never really cut or broken, this thread sounds like bunk I'm afraid. How far apart are these lines? if I was small I guess I could navigate around them and not feel a field. Can I tie the lines in a knot? I think your taking the whole line this far too literally, it's just a cruch, Do you think the magnetic lines come out of one end on a magnet and go in the other too? On 9/14/06, Remi Cornwall wrote: Robin, you've either got the knack or you haven't. Those SMOT, Steorn, Shawyer folks are amateurs. Anyway about your Van Allen Belt ideas, why not just use a search coil and see what you pick up. I bet you'd get a large emf at the time of a CME but we already knew that. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] Sent: 14 September 2006 04:22 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Robin In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Tue, 12 Sep 2006 12:00:55 +0100: Hi, [snip] >May be, but not with some frigging wheel with magnets on it made by a bunch >of self-publicity junkies a la Steorn or SMOT. > >Without expending too much time on non-starters, just devise some >heuristics. How can that be? You already said yourself that rotation of the bodies involved is what gets the lines tangled. So if the Earth's field lines can be concentrated locally, then twisted till they "snap" we might get see something interesting. As everyone knows, magnetic conductors tend to concentrate the field lines in their vicinity. So what happens when a North South oriented magnetic conductor is rotated? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. ------=_NextPart_000_0133_01C6D809.7F267590 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Those ‘lines’ would = just be ‘contours’ indicating (like iso-bars) constant field strength. There is no law for = ‘continuity of lines’ but continuity of magnetic = flux.

 

All that is happening when you have = conductive flowing plasma is that field lines are associated with the flow of this = flux. In the case of the sun there comes a point where the magnetic forces = exceed the hydrodynamic forces such that the plasma takes up a simpler = configuration with respect to the field.

 

Consider this: imagine at the = equator of the sun there is a net flow of plasma circumferentially with rotation = (also radial convection cells underneath), each convection cell looks like a solenoid = and you’d get a North and South pole astride the equator. Now factor in other = effects, such as rotation speed based on latitude, Corollis forces etc. and the = current distribution and hence field becomes more contorted – the field = lines will follow the plasma which gets stratiated (as in strata). What = happens then is that the field lines get stratiated too. The packed field lines means = a large change in magnetic potential – it is an energy storage = mechanism, the rotational energy and heat energy of the sun gets stored in the = plasma by hydrodynamic and electrodynamic effects (charged particles forced to do = work against a certain field configuration and held there by mechanical = forces). There comes appoint where the ‘liquid’ is put under immense shear = by these electromagnetic forces and the flow suddenly changes to a simpler configuration. The excess energy is released in a burst of em radiation, prominences etc.

 

I can’t see what this has to = do with a SMOT or a Steorn so you are right, this thread is = bunk.

 

From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: 14 September 2006 = 12:58
To: = vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: = Robin

 

My = understanding was that magnetic fields weren't really 'lines' but a smooth field and were never = really cut or broken, this thread sounds like bunk I'm afraid.

How far apart are these lines? if I was small I guess I could navigate = around them and not feel a field.

Can I tie the lines in a knot?

I think your taking the whole line this far too literally, it's just a = cruch, Do you think the magnetic lines come out of one end on a magnet and go = in the other too?

On 9/14/06, Remi Cornwall <remicornwall@yahoo.co.uk>= wrote:

Robin, you've = either got the knack or you haven't. Those SMOT, Steorn,
Shawyer folks are amateurs.

Anyway about your Van Allen Belt ideas, why not just use a search coil = and
see what you pick up. I bet you'd get a large emf at the time of a CME = but
we already knew that.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au]
Sent: 14 September 2006 04:22
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Robin

In reply to  Remi Cornwall's message of Tue, 12 Sep 2006 = 12:00:55
+0100:
Hi,
[snip]
>May be, but not with some frigging wheel with magnets on it made by = a bunch
>of self-publicity junkies a la Steorn or SMOT.
>
>Without expending too much time on non-starters, just devise = some
>heuristics. How can that be?

You already said yourself that rotation of the bodies involved is
what gets the lines tangled. So if the Earth's field lines can be
concentrated locally, then twisted till they "snap" we might = get
see something interesting. As everyone knows, magnetic conductors
tend to concentrate the field lines in their vicinity. So what
happens when a North South oriented magnetic conductor is rotated?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.a= u/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

 

------=_NextPart_000_0133_01C6D809.7F267590-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 14 07:53:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8EEo1UH014074; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 07:52:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8EEj9vs010905; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 07:45:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 07:45:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=GpbFzF6CI9d+9PkZM4HCLvDkVm4JefjteBtmrHP3IiL8PFPy8J1sqLUvIQpOKt5fYKcfx6if/IUVXFNApij7nltDmxl6GHkEb6d+DtnRD9Hq1VMkupHZfpVfJdRo46KbsRjnBKSwH4FpfLELwsQAMhWafktO559mMqLAbR6AuM4= ; Message-ID: <003001c6d80c$5afa7b50$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <014701c6d218$47ce0550$c90efea9@TOSHIBA> <93dhg2hrspnh1vmpg7nkje20i2b888jt06@4ax.com> Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 07:44:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70712 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: OT Massive oil field commentary Status: O X-Status: Re: Massive new oil find ... RvS ...all of 2 years worth. TB ... More like 1.25 yr @ 20 bbl/yr. ...yet it is still 15 billion barrels recoverable ... so let's put all these numbers into a more general "wealth "perspective, at the current price of around $70, that amounts to one trillion dollars. It will be more by the time it is extracted. That compares with a current GDP for the USA of about $15 trillion. But what about - compared to national wealth? Hmm... you may not realize that the USA, because of the Iraq War, is now a net debtor nation, so it could represent all of our national wealth ! Even before Bush's war on Iraq (more like a war on wealth) the federal government was keeping two sets of books. The set the government promotes to the public has a $318 billion deficit in 2005. Bush even called this "healthy" without mentioning the many years of surpluses in the previous administration. And those were probably false surpluses, anyway. To paraphrase from "America for Sale" by William Norman Grigg, an "audited financial statement produced by the government's own accountants, following "standard accounting rules" instead of spin-doctoring - actually discloses that the real baseline deficit was $760 billion, due mostly to hidden military expenses which were not considered as "costs" but were amortized, or other accounting tricks used by Rumsfeld and the Pentagon. If Rummy were at Enron, he could be in hot-water for that. And if the cost of Social Security and Medicare were included in the total, as any honest accounting would require, the federal deficit would have been $3.5 trillion (against "all income" not tax income, of $14.5 trillion). Is it any wonder why we have become a net debtor nation ? Thank you, Congress. BTW ... Enron's Ken lay was convicted of violating accounting rules, among other things, but those corporate transgressions were miniscule compared to what is happening to the books in DC. Is keeping two sets of books OK for Sam but suicidal for Ken? Maybe not... there was a KL sighting recently at a trendy cafe in Dubai. He was reportedly sharing photos and coffee with a skinny pale-faced guy with a fake nose, and wearing one glove . And back to that $3.5 trillion - it is the annual real deficit - not the national debt. You do not even want to know what that figure really is, if you haven't had breakfast yet, by normal accounting rules, that is. But it would be comparable to the average Joe borrowing about a quarter of his net income *every year* and blowing it for ... what? ... "security against terrorism"? Even if we used the much lower spin-doctored "public" number - in what sense is a deficit of nearly one-third of a trillion dollars 'healthy' "? Grigg rhetorically asks the President, following his State of the Union address. He continues "In roughly the same sense that congestive heart failure is "healthier" than a sucking chest wound: Both are lethal if untreated, but the latter will kill more quickly." "We're a bottom-line culture, and we've been hiding the bottom line from the American people," complains Rep. Jim Cooper, former investment banker, who has offered a draft resolution - supported by congressmen on both sides of the aisle - but vehemently opposed by Bush: to require the White House to include audited spending and deficit numbers in his budget proposals. "It's not fair to [the people], and it's delusional on our part." ... that Washington has invested heavily in the preservation of such a false accounting system that Rep. Cooper's proposal for honest accounting wasn't even considered by the Senate's leadership. Grigg is right-on - and that is just a true no matter who or which party ends up in the White House next time. Anyway, if that massive new oil find is real, it may be all we have going for us these days, wealth-wise ... or is that un-wise ? given that next year we will have to borrow against that oil find to keep troops in hostile lands ? And yet, personally, it all makes me wonder how and why do I remains so optimistic? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 14 14:37:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8ELauCk004150; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:36:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8ELasfb004127; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:36:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:36:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Robin Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 07:36:51 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <013201c6d801$1d620d90$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> In-Reply-To: <013201c6d801$1d620d90$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 14 Sep 2006 21:36:51 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8ELaph4004100 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70713 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:24:30 +0100: Hi Remi, [snip] >configuration. The excess energy is released in a burst of em radiation, >prominences etc. > > > >I can't see what this has to do with a SMOT or a Steorn so you are right, >this thread is bunk. > The point is that tangled magnetic field lines release energy under some circumstances. My question is, and remains, why can't that be done here in the lab, and can you think of a better way of tangling field lines than spinning magnets? Maybe this is my mistake. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 14 16:04:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8EN41xE009312; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 16:04:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8EN40qc009293; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 16:04:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 16:04:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001501c6d852$091951d0$bd037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: OT Massive oil field commentary Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 18:03:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C6D828.1D2D5740" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70714 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C6D828.1D2D5740 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C6D828.1D2D5740" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C6D828.1D2D5740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Jones wrote.. >And yet, personally, it all makes me wonder how and why do I=20 remains so optimistic? Howdy Jones, Didn't " Rummy" say for a thousand times.. "deficits dont matter". = Doesn't that literally mean forget it, it's over ! My ole uncle Raford over in Dime Box Texas says " don't 50% of nothin = equal nothin. We ain't got nothin to worry about cuz we ain't got = nothin. Knew a Gulf Oil company geologist back in the 1930's . He said Gulf OIl = knew the Gulf of Mexico was a huge oil pool from Louisana to Vera Cruz = to lake Maricaibo Venezuela cuz they had production wells in all those = places. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C6D828.1D2D5740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
Jones wrote..
>And yet, personally, it all makes me wonder how and why do I=20
remains so optimistic?
 
Howdy Jones,
 
Didn't " Rummy" say for a thousand times.. "deficits dont matter". = Doesn't=20 that literally mean forget it, it's over !
 
My ole uncle Raford over in Dime Box Texas says "  don't 50% = of nothin=20 equal nothin. We ain't got nothin to worry about cuz we ain't got = nothin.
 
Knew a Gulf Oil company geologist back in the 1930's . He said Gulf = OIl=20 knew the Gulf of Mexico was a huge oil pool from Louisana to Vera Cruz = to=20  lake Maricaibo Venezuela cuz they had production wells in all = those=20 places.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C6D828.1D2D5740-- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C6D828.1D2D5740 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001001c6d852$05fd44c0$bd037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C6D828.1D2D5740-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 14 23:43:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8F6hTga002457; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 23:43:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8F6hRZa002441; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 23:43:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 23:43:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,168,1157299200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="632537671:sNHT5732561784" Message-ID: <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:41:50 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Colin Quinney , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> In-Reply-To: <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090903060207000804010009" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70716 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090903060207000804010009 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A stationary emdrive can still push a ship in a given direction. It becomes an inertial anchor. An inertial anchor resists being moved but does not move itself. You can push down or back on it and it wont move but pulling upon it and it moves freely. A craft with an inertial anchor on it can jack forward against the mass and drive force of the anchor. It can then pull the anchor forward pulling against only the mass of the drive. The result is a dynamic mechanical asymmetry. The emdrive would probably be jacked back and forth by a linear motor or a crank driving a rod. For smooth operation you need several Inertial Anchors cycling out of phase to produce uniform forward momentum. Interestingly you could put emdrive inertial anchors on the ends of a set of oars and simply "row" through outer space. A vac-suit would be advisable. Colin Quinney wrote: > Hi Steven, > > I cannot follow it at that level, sorry. But I wonder how much > information has been filtered by the article writers- the reporters. > > Colin > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* OrionWorks > *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:20 PM > *Subject:* [Vo]: > > Hi Colin, > > Regarding this newfangled EM Drive, some things don't add up from > my point of view. In one article it was theorized by the > researchers that the "force" only works at maximum efficiency if > the operating EMDrive is stationary, that is, when it isn't > moving. They went on to speculate that the force emanating from > the EMDrive weakens as velocity accumulates. It was therefore > suggested that the EMDrive (if it could be made strong enough > while in the stationary position) could only be used as a kind of > anti/counter gravity field. Kind of like a hovercraft. It was > suggested that would then need to employ a more prosaic, secondary > force to propel the vehicle in any direction. > > I have a big problem with this kind of logic. It all comes down to > what one understands about Einstin's theory of relativity. It's > all "relative", as they say. Whose is to say that the stationary > DMDRIve object is really stationary. To someone traveling at a > constant speed of 2000 mph relative to the EMDrive object, from > that person's POV the EM Drive craft is speeding at a constant > speed of 2000 mph. Therefore, from the stationary person's > perspective the DMDrive should not operate as efficiently as > compared to an individual who is actually traveling at the same > speed as the DMDrive object. That's what the researchers seem to > be implying. > > Such logic clearly produces two conflicting POV's, where one > individual (moving at the same speed as the object) perceives the > force from the DMDrive as greater than the forced as perceived by > the other individual (who is stationary). Huston, we have a problem. > > Something doesn't add up right here. > > The only way I think they could get around this seeming > contradiction would be if the alleged weakening of the EMDrive > force only becomes noticeable as the object approaches the speed > of light, that is, from the perspective of a stationary observer. > IOW, the weakening would manifest on the same grand scale as how > objects are perceived to flatten (and gain mass) as they approach > the speed of light, again as perceived by individuals at a > stationary position. However, when one reads the article this > doesn't appear to be the case. The article seems to imply that the > EMDrive force weakens pretty soon after it speeds up implying that > the effects of relativity play virtually no role whatsoever. > > This would appear to be a blatant contradiction of logic. > > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.Zazzle.com/orionworks > > > > > > > > > > Hi Steven, > > > > Coincidentally it also appeared in last > > week Sept.9's cover story for New Scientist. > > http://www.newscientist.com/archive.ns > > > > Regarding it's speculative nature... > > > > > > On the negative side: > > > > I have heard that in one of their experiments they > > utilized an electric balance (I'm assuming a digital scale) > > and that the thick power supply wires might have > > interfered with one of their experiments. > > Others have noted .. > > It violates (apparently) the law of > > momentum.There are several other possibilities of artefacts > > such as heat build-up causing hot gas to escape from the MW cavity? > > Or possible coulomb artefact due to charge build-up > > across the assembly? > > Or interaction with the earth's magnetic > > field? > > And strange that it is only patented in the UK. > > > > > > On the positive side: > > > > Anyone familiar with microwave cavity and waveguide > > work.. can inexpensively build the unit with a kitchen > microwave, sheet > > copper, and tubing. > > > > - - - > > > > In attempting to take a particular "side" in > > the controversy what are your potential rewards vs. your potential > > risks? > > **IF** we are curious AND we have building > > experience with waveguides etc... we might decide to (quietly) > attempt a > > replication. I suspect some folks are doing just that. > > > > Ridicule is anathema to science. > > So also is believing everything we > > read. > > As in all things in > > life we must find that 'balance'. > > > > Colin > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: > > OrionWorks > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:38 > > AM > > Subject: [Vo]: EM Drives, revisited > > Recapping the potential ramifications of the highly speculative > > "EM Drive" > proposal.See:http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticleID=295931(Sorry, > > > Tinyurl.com was down when trying to make the abbreviated version > of this > > link.)If this speculative research turns out to be true, one can > > quickly extrapolate what the possibilities might quickly lead > to, particularly > > if Mark Golde's RTS Room Temperature Superconducting material > were also to > > become available on the market soon.From my perspective it seems > > conceivable that fast and efficient "EM Drives" could open up > commercial space > > exploration of the asteroid belt, where everyone knows that's > where the next > > Gold Gush is likely to exist in the form unlimited raw materials > just waiting > > to be mined.Sometimes I wish I was 20 years old again.Have > > Space Suit, will travel.Regards,Steven Vincent > > Johnsonwww.OrionWorks.comwww.zazzle.com/orionworks > > > --------------090903060207000804010009 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A stationary emdrive can still push a ship in a given direction. It becomes an inertial anchor. An inertial anchor resists being moved but does not move itself. You can push down or back on it and it wont move but pulling upon it and it moves freely. A craft with an inertial anchor on it can jack forward against the mass and drive force of the anchor. It can then pull the anchor forward pulling against only the mass of the drive. The result is a dynamic mechanical asymmetry. The emdrive would probably be jacked back and forth by a linear motor or a crank driving a rod. For smooth operation you need several Inertial Anchors cycling out of phase to produce uniform forward momentum. Interestingly you could put emdrive inertial anchors on the ends of a set of oars and simply "row" through outer space. A vac-suit would be advisable.

Colin Quinney wrote:
Hi Steven,
 
I cannot follow it at that level, sorry. But I wonder how much information has been filtered by the article writers- the reporters.
 
Colin
----- Original Message -----
From: OrionWorks
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:20 PM
Subject: [Vo]:

Hi Colin,

Regarding this newfangled EM Drive, some things don't add up from my point of view. In one article it was theorized by the researchers that the "force" only works at maximum efficiency if the operating EMDrive is stationary, that is, when it isn't moving. They went on to speculate that the force emanating from the EMDrive weakens as velocity accumulates. It was therefore suggested that the EMDrive (if it could be made strong enough while in the stationary position) could only be used as a kind of anti/counter gravity field. Kind of like a hovercraft. It was suggested that would then need to employ a more prosaic, secondary force to propel the vehicle in any direction.

I have a big problem with this kind of logic. It all comes down to what one understands about Einstin's theory of relativity. It's all "relative", as they say. Whose is to say that the stationary DMDRIve object is really stationary. To someone traveling at a constant speed of 2000 mph relative to the EMDrive object, from that person's POV the EM Drive craft is speeding at a constant speed of 2000 mph. Therefore, from the stationary person's perspective the DMDrive should not operate as efficiently as compared to an individual who is actually traveling at the same speed as the DMDrive object. That's what the researchers seem to be implying.

Such logic clearly produces two conflicting POV's, where one individual (moving at the same speed as the object) perceives the force from the DMDrive as greater than the forced as perceived by the other individual (who is stationary). Huston, we have a problem.

Something doesn't add up right here.

The only way I think they could get around this seeming contradiction would be if the alleged weakening of the EMDrive force only becomes noticeable as the object approaches the speed of light, that is, from the perspective of a stationary observer. IOW, the weakening would manifest on the same grand scale as how objects are perceived to flatten (and gain mass) as they approach the speed of light, again as perceived by individuals at a stationary position. However, when one reads the article this doesn't appear to be the case. The article seems to imply that the EMDrive force weakens pretty soon after it speeds up implying that the effects of relativity play virtually no role whatsoever.

This would appear to be a blatant contradiction of logic.


Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks




>
>
> Hi Steven,
>
> Coincidentally it also appeared in last
> week Sept.9's cover story for New Scientist.
> http://www.newscientist.com/archive.ns
>
> Regarding it's speculative nature...
>
>
> On the negative side:
>
> I have heard that in one of their experiments they
> utilized an electric balance (I'm assuming a digital scale)
> and that the thick power supply wires might have
> interfered with one of their experiments.
> Others have noted ..
> It violates (apparently) the law of
> momentum.There are several other possibilities of artefacts
> such as heat build-up causing hot gas to escape from the MW cavity?
> Or possible coulomb artefact due to charge build-up
> across the assembly?
> Or interaction with the earth's magnetic
> field?
> And strange that it is only patented in the UK.
>
>
> On the positive side:
>
> Anyone familiar with microwave cavity and waveguide
> work.. can inexpensively build the unit with a kitchen microwave, sheet
> copper, and tubing.
>
> - - -
>
> In attempting to take a particular "side" in
> the controversy what are your potential rewards vs. your potential
> risks?
> **IF** we are curious AND we have building
> experience with waveguides etc... we might decide to (quietly) attempt a
> replication. I suspect some folks are doing just that.
>
> Ridicule is anathema to science.
> So also is believing everything we
> read.
> As in all things in
> life we must find that 'balance'.
>
> Colin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From:
> OrionWorks
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:38
> AM
> Subject: [Vo]: EM Drives, revisited
> Recapping the potential ramifications of the highly speculative
> "EM Drive" proposal.See:http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticleID=295931(Sorry,
> Tinyurl.com was down when trying to make the abbreviated version of this
> link.)If this speculative research turns out to be true, one can
> quickly extrapolate what the possibilities might quickly lead to, particularly
> if Mark Golde's RTS Room Temperature Superconducting material were also to
> become available on the market soon.From my perspective it seems
> conceivable that fast and efficient "EM Drives" could open up commercial space
> exploration of the asteroid belt, where everyone knows that's where the next
> Gold Gush is likely to exist in the form unlimited raw materials just waiting
> to be mined.Sometimes I wish I was 20 years old again.Have
> Space Suit, will travel.Regards,Steven Vincent
> Johnsonwww.OrionWorks.comwww.zazzle.com/orionworks
>

--------------090903060207000804010009-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 15 00:14:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8F7DrKC013871; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 00:13:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8F7DoYX013835; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 00:13:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 00:13:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:13:42 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 15 Sep 2006 07:13:43 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8F7Djwl013771 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70717 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:41:50 +1000: Hi, [snip] >A stationary emdrive can still push a ship in a given direction. It >becomes an inertial anchor. An inertial anchor resists being moved but >does not move itself. You can push down or back on it and it wont move >but pulling upon it and it moves freely. A craft with an inertial anchor >on it can jack forward against the mass and drive force of the anchor. >It can then pull the anchor forward pulling against only the mass of the >drive. The result is a dynamic mechanical asymmetry. The emdrive would >probably be jacked back and forth by a linear motor or a crank driving a >rod. For smooth operation you need several Inertial Anchors cycling out >of phase to produce uniform forward momentum. Interestingly you could >put emdrive inertial anchors on the ends of a set of oars and simply >"row" through outer space. A vac-suit would be advisable. [snip] As I understand it however, the actual drive in question is not an inertial anchor. It's just that the force drops off as it starts to accelerate. This is because the force depends upon a huge microwave density in the cavity, and as energy is consumed in accelerating the device, it is drawn from this microwave energy. However there is no reason why it shouldn't provide a continuous acceleration force if the energy in the cavity is replaced as fast as it is used. It's like pouring water into a leaky bucket. If your pour water in as fast as it leaks out, then the bucket stays full. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 15 03:11:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8FABNfx010227; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 03:11:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8FABMZB010214; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 03:11:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 03:11:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,168,1157299200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="896447146:sNHT36219332" Message-ID: <450A7C47.4070508@iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:11:19 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Sincere amateurs: Steorn.net References: <00cf01c6cb8b$b21c7560$1f00a8c0@RCORNWALL> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010804050203080606070101" Resent-Message-ID: <_-GcmC.A.efC.KxnCFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70718 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010804050203080606070101 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Beaty wrote: >On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, Remi Cornwall wrote: > > > >>These guys are *sincere* but mistaken amateurs. >> >>*This is not how science is conducted.* >> >> > >If they're keeping it secret, then it's not science, instead it's business >(i.e. inventors, corporate R&D, etc.) As Feynman pointed out, the >essence of science is bend-over-backwards honesty, nothing hidden, no >holds barred truthfulness. > > Of cause the average Scientist is tied to a lecture hall more hours than he or she gets in a lab, or broke, or both. Public science is starved of funds and that isn't going to change any time soon. Half our science is public, Feynman stuff and half is private work behind closed doors. The latter only works for technology that is not disputed. It also works by doing black box demonstrations of the key technologies some times. The catch with the private secret stuff is that it can languish for decades with an unsolvable problem or a beautiful solution that can't find an application. Remember Xerox Parks invention of the graphical interface we all use today they couldn't figure out what to do with it. Public key encryption is an other example. If you want rich science you need to close the doors till the patents is nailed and if there is a chance that the patent will be rejected because the theory is not peer reviewable you then have to create a pool of peers that know enough to review the work. [we're that pool but Steorn did not know that did they.] Steorn's trying to push the creation of an open peer review group, the Jury and their students and friends. It might not work but its worth a try. If you want poor science go public with every thing and starve quietly like me. Beg governments for every cent they have or can get from the tax payers. Watch your best and brightest leave for greener pastures and dread every election as you hear political candidates offer up your precious research funding to pay for pensions, schools, hospitals, jails and wars. >If Steorn has a genuine discovery, that's very sad. If some science >amateurs got hold of it first, we'd immediately see the plans posted at >makezine.com > > > how do you pay you education loans by giving your best technology away free. We have a lot of arguments about open source but it just wont pay the bills. Makezine is paid for conspicuously with adds for PATENTED technology like I Robots floor cleaning robotic hubcaps. A few people are set up to accept donations like Wikipedia but their main donors are rich patent owners and government financed entities. Is self funding open source science possible? Yes its worth a try but no I see no working example that is not patent or tax funded somewhere in the money trail. >On the same topic: as a scientist, Nikola Tesla was a real slimeball, >since he apparently discovered x-rays several years before Roentgen, but >didn't announce the discovery. Tesla was keeping the discovery secret >while working on it. Then Tesla's lab burned down, then Roentgen >discovered the same thing and spread the discovery worldwide almost >overnight. > > Roentgen kept his work secret for six months. He had secret correspondence with many in the field; his Jury included Curie. He had something concrete to show the media and at that time the idea of fake photos was new and rare. He went around peer review via a Newspaper and demonstrations. As you say he refused to go down the Patent path but as a consequence he did not die rich and had to be financed by others who had filed patents for their work including Nobel. Tesla had excellent ideas about "open source energy" broadcast power, the Wardenclyffe Tower, but as his backer turned critic J.P Morgan noted. "Where can I put the meter?" . Tesla was a brilliant scientist but a lousy economist. We must be both to crack the energy conundrum. > > >(((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb at amasci com http://amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair >Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > > --------------010804050203080606070101 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Beaty wrote: 
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, Remi Cornwall wrote:

  
These guys are *sincere* but mistaken amateurs.

*This is not how science is conducted.*
    

If they're keeping it secret, then it's not science, instead it's business
(i.e. inventors, corporate R&D, etc.)    As Feynman pointed out, the
essence of science is bend-over-backwards honesty, nothing hidden, no
holds barred truthfulness.
Of cause the average Scientist is tied to a lecture hall more hours than he or she gets in a lab, or broke, or both. Public science is starved of funds and that isn't going to change any time soon. Half our science is public, Feynman stuff and half is private work behind closed doors. The latter only works for technology that is not disputed. It also works by doing black box demonstrations of the key technologies some times. The catch with the private secret stuff is that it can languish for decades with an unsolvable problem or a beautiful solution that can't find an application. Remember Xerox Parks invention of the graphical interface we all use today they couldn't figure out what to do with it. Public key encryption is an other example.

If you want rich science you need to close the doors till the patents is nailed and if there is a chance that the patent will be rejected because the theory is not peer reviewable you then have to create a pool of peers that know enough to review the work. [we're that pool but Steorn did not know that did they.] Steorn's trying to push the creation of an open peer review group, the Jury and their students and friends. It might not work but its worth a try.

If you want poor science go public with every thing and starve quietly like me. Beg governments for every cent they have or can get from the tax payers. Watch your best and brightest leave for greener pastures and dread every election as you hear political candidates offer up your precious research funding to pay for pensions, schools, hospitals, jails and wars. 
If Steorn has a genuine discovery, that's very sad.   If some science
amateurs got hold of it first, we'd immediately see the plans posted at
makezine.com
how do you pay you education loans by giving your best technology away free. We have a lot of arguments about open source but it just wont pay the bills. Makezine is paid for conspicuously with adds for PATENTED technology like I Robots floor cleaning robotic hubcaps. A few people are set up to accept donations like Wikipedia but their main donors are rich patent owners and government financed entities. Is self funding open source science possible? Yes its worth a try but no I see no working example that is not patent or tax funded somewhere in the money trail. 
On the same topic:  as a scientist, Nikola Tesla was a real slimeball,
since he apparently discovered x-rays several years before Roentgen, but
didn't announce the discovery.  Tesla was keeping the discovery secret
while working on it.  Then Tesla's lab burned down, then Roentgen
discovered the same thing and spread the discovery worldwide almost
overnight.
Roentgen kept his work secret for six months. He had secret correspondence with many in the field; his Jury included Curie. He had something concrete to show the media and at that time the idea of fake photos was new and rare. He went around peer review via a Newspaper and demonstrations. As you say he refused to go down the Patent path but as a consequence he did not die rich and had to be financed by others who had filed patents for their work including Nobel.

Tesla had excellent ideas about "open source energy" broadcast power, the Wardenclyffe Tower, but as his backer turned critic J.P Morgan  noted. "Where can I put the meter?" . Tesla was a brilliant scientist but a lousy economist. We must be both to crack the energy conundrum.



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  425-222-5066    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

--------------010804050203080606070101-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 15 03:28:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8FASZrr016493; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 03:28:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8FASWb6016440; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 03:28:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 03:28:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=r5t3sEipSTRplO99LrqJHBKBq9LmCSYMCGMqPikSBnuC/U+W0QWi9bwO/OZAgYCwkrKZuQVgb/tTZU+05E5NejITBlA+awceFy945bACICu/echbxa2muHcmWo2WebmiquNEPzrSMFw5m8Aek1CMpkW4ha5b4pisxfi+8CX2GLM= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:27:59 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_31491_2234063.1158316079019" References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70719 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_31491_2234063.1158316079019 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No, Wesely is correct, it is an inertial anchor. (it could be used to push off or it could be used by moving it in the direction of travel and turning it on then bringing it to rest relative to the ship, or both) The reason acceleration is tricky is not because the energy is converted into motion but because the motion effects the distance the light must travel in effect making it go out of resonance so the Q drops and the energy bouncing around drops sharply as with the force. I believe that this can be corrected with a constant velocity which is fast enough to have the it reach resonance one wavelength above and below the stationary resonance depending on the direction of the photons. (you'd need to have higher frequency photons, more distant walls and decent acceleration, otherwise a far lower frequency would be effected less by acceleration) However I very much like the rowing idea, the down side is that every stroke the energy will be dissipated so you will need to wait till it charges up again. What you should note is that this device if it works at all MUST violate the conservation of energy, there is no way round it, if you use it to accelerate or row for 10 seconds and it accelerated it to 1 meter a second using .5KWh say, then if you run it for 20 seconds you'd have used 1KWh, have 2 meters a second velocity but the energy contained in forward movement of your ship is 4 times that of running the engines for the 10 seconds. On 9/15/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:41:50 > +1000: > Hi, > [snip] > >A stationary emdrive can still push a ship in a given direction. It > >becomes an inertial anchor. An inertial anchor resists being moved but > >does not move itself. You can push down or back on it and it wont move > >but pulling upon it and it moves freely. A craft with an inertial anchor > >on it can jack forward against the mass and drive force of the anchor. > >It can then pull the anchor forward pulling against only the mass of the > >drive. The result is a dynamic mechanical asymmetry. The emdrive would > >probably be jacked back and forth by a linear motor or a crank driving a > >rod. For smooth operation you need several Inertial Anchors cycling out > >of phase to produce uniform forward momentum. Interestingly you could > >put emdrive inertial anchors on the ends of a set of oars and simply > >"row" through outer space. A vac-suit would be advisable. > [snip] > As I understand it however, the actual drive in question is not an > inertial anchor. It's just that the force drops off as it starts > to accelerate. This is because the force depends upon a huge > microwave density in the cavity, and as energy is consumed in > accelerating the device, it is drawn from this microwave energy. > However there is no reason why it shouldn't provide a continuous > acceleration force if the energy in the cavity is replaced as fast > as it is used. > > It's like pouring water into a leaky bucket. If your pour water in > as fast as it leaks out, then the bucket stays full. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > ------=_Part_31491_2234063.1158316079019 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No, Wesely is correct, it is an inertial anchor. (it could be used to push off or it could be used by moving it in the direction of travel and turning it on then bringing it to rest relative to the ship, or both)

The reason acceleration is tricky is not because the energy is converted into motion but because the motion effects the distance the light must travel in effect making it go out of resonance so the Q drops and the energy bouncing around drops sharply as with the force.

I believe that this can be corrected with a constant velocity which is fast enough to have the it reach resonance one wavelength above and below the stationary resonance depending on the direction of the photons. (you'd need to have higher frequency photons, more distant walls and decent acceleration, otherwise a far lower frequency would be effected less by acceleration)

However I very much like the rowing idea, the down side is that every stroke the energy will be dissipated so you will need to wait till it charges up again.

What you should note is that this device if it works at all MUST violate the conservation of energy, there is no way round it, if you use it to accelerate or row for 10 seconds and it accelerated it to 1 meter a second using .5KWh say, then if you run it for 20 seconds you'd have used 1KWh, have 2 meters a second velocity but the energy contained in forward movement of your ship is 4 times that of running the engines for the 10 seconds.


On 9/15/06, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
In reply to  Wesley Bruce's message of Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:41:50
+1000:
Hi,
[snip]
>A stationary emdrive can still push a ship in a given direction. It
>becomes an inertial anchor. An inertial anchor resists being moved but
>does not move itself. You can push down or back on it and it wont move
>but pulling upon it and it moves freely. A craft with an inertial anchor
>on it can jack forward against the mass and drive force of the anchor.
>It can then pull the anchor forward pulling against only the mass of the
>drive. The result is a dynamic mechanical asymmetry. The emdrive would
>probably be jacked back and forth by a linear motor or a crank driving a
>rod. For smooth operation you need several Inertial Anchors cycling out
>of phase to produce uniform forward momentum. Interestingly you could
>put emdrive inertial anchors on the ends of a set of oars and simply
>"row" through outer space. A vac-suit would be advisable.
[snip]
As I understand it however, the actual drive in question is not an
inertial anchor. It's just that the force drops off as it starts
to accelerate. This is because the force depends upon a huge
microwave density in the cavity, and as energy is consumed in
accelerating the device, it is drawn from this microwave energy.
However there is no reason why it shouldn't provide a continuous
acceleration force if the energy in the cavity is replaced as fast
as it is used.

It's like pouring water into a leaky bucket. If your pour water in
as fast as it leaks out, then the bucket stays full.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.


------=_Part_31491_2234063.1158316079019-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 15 03:29:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8FATZMA016882; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 03:29:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8FATWXm016859; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 03:29:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 03:29:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=E7lKLurYQ8H3JYy6TrlldTrJpKD7SoyVC9C9lBuOUyrLTFqs1luQulvsYvNKUAke3qsUpIxDzELCfaYkK+w4Qlsfsz5Jk17xbAM7OkSx6aCSyXrCcDjmfFSNLmEpXewFcVpImyZTa+eF2ngMVMDCqD+x3cgjjh0AQ9AbZOY62To= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:29:31 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_31523_16913077.1158316171697" References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70720 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_31523_16913077.1158316171697 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I suppose KWh is a poor unit of energy to use when my example only ran for a few seconds, so change to some other suitible measure of energy. On 9/15/06, John Berry wrote: > > No, Wesely is correct, it is an inertial anchor. (it could be used to push > off or it could be used by moving it in the direction of travel and turning > it on then bringing it to rest relative to the ship, or both) > > The reason acceleration is tricky is not because the energy is converted > into motion but because the motion effects the distance the light must > travel in effect making it go out of resonance so the Q drops and the energy > bouncing around drops sharply as with the force. > > I believe that this can be corrected with a constant velocity which is > fast enough to have the it reach resonance one wavelength above and below > the stationary resonance depending on the direction of the photons. (you'd > need to have higher frequency photons, more distant walls and decent > acceleration, otherwise a far lower frequency would be effected less by > acceleration) > > However I very much like the rowing idea, the down side is that every > stroke the energy will be dissipated so you will need to wait till it > charges up again. > > What you should note is that this device if it works at all MUST violate > the conservation of energy, there is no way round it, if you use it to > accelerate or row for 10 seconds and it accelerated it to 1 meter a second > using .5KWh say, then if you run it for 20 seconds you'd have used 1KWh, > have 2 meters a second velocity but the energy contained in forward movement > of your ship is 4 times that of running the engines for the 10 seconds. > > > > On 9/15/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > > In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:41:50 > > +1000: > > Hi, > > [snip] > > >A stationary emdrive can still push a ship in a given direction. It > > >becomes an inertial anchor. An inertial anchor resists being moved but > > >does not move itself. You can push down or back on it and it wont move > > >but pulling upon it and it moves freely. A craft with an inertial > > anchor > > >on it can jack forward against the mass and drive force of the anchor. > > >It can then pull the anchor forward pulling against only the mass of > > the > > >drive. The result is a dynamic mechanical asymmetry. The emdrive would > > >probably be jacked back and forth by a linear motor or a crank driving > > a > > >rod. For smooth operation you need several Inertial Anchors cycling out > > >of phase to produce uniform forward momentum. Interestingly you could > > >put emdrive inertial anchors on the ends of a set of oars and simply > > >"row" through outer space. A vac-suit would be advisable. > > [snip] > > As I understand it however, the actual drive in question is not an > > inertial anchor. It's just that the force drops off as it starts > > to accelerate. This is because the force depends upon a huge > > microwave density in the cavity, and as energy is consumed in > > accelerating the device, it is drawn from this microwave energy. > > However there is no reason why it shouldn't provide a continuous > > acceleration force if the energy in the cavity is replaced as fast > > as it is used. > > > > It's like pouring water into a leaky bucket. If your pour water in > > as fast as it leaks out, then the bucket stays full. > > > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > > > Competition provides the motivation, > > Cooperation provides the means. > > > > > ------=_Part_31523_16913077.1158316171697 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I suppose KWh is a poor unit of energy to use when my example only ran for a few seconds, so change to some other suitible measure of energy.

On 9/15/06, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
No, Wesely is correct, it is an inertial anchor. (it could be used to push off or it could be used by moving it in the direction of travel and turning it on then bringing it to rest relative to the ship, or both)

The reason acceleration is tricky is not because the energy is converted into motion but because the motion effects the distance the light must travel in effect making it go out of resonance so the Q drops and the energy bouncing around drops sharply as with the force.

I believe that this can be corrected with a constant velocity which is fast enough to have the it reach resonance one wavelength above and below the stationary resonance depending on the direction of the photons. (you'd need to have higher frequency photons, more distant walls and decent acceleration, otherwise a far lower frequency would be effected less by acceleration)

However I very much like the rowing idea, the down side is that every stroke the energy will be dissipated so you will need to wait till it charges up again.

What you should note is that this device if it works at all MUST violate the conservation of energy, there is no way round it, if you use it to accelerate or row for 10 seconds and it accelerated it to 1 meter a second using .5KWh say, then if you run it for 20 seconds you'd have used 1KWh, have 2 meters a second velocity but the energy contained in forward movement of your ship is 4 times that of running the engines for the 10 seconds.



On 9/15/06, Robin van Spaandonk < rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
In reply to  Wesley Bruce's message of Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:41:50
+1000:
Hi,
[snip]
>A stationary emdrive can still push a ship in a given direction. It
>becomes an inertial anchor. An inertial anchor resists being moved but
>does not move itself. You can push down or back on it and it wont move
>but pulling upon it and it moves freely. A craft with an inertial anchor
>on it can jack forward against the mass and drive force of the anchor.
>It can then pull the anchor forward pulling against only the mass of the
>drive. The result is a dynamic mechanical asymmetry. The emdrive would
>probably be jacked back and forth by a linear motor or a crank driving a
>rod. For smooth operation you need several Inertial Anchors cycling out
>of phase to produce uniform forward momentum. Interestingly you could
>put emdrive inertial anchors on the ends of a set of oars and simply
>"row" through outer space. A vac-suit would be advisable.
[snip]
As I understand it however, the actual drive in question is not an
inertial anchor. It's just that the force drops off as it starts
to accelerate. This is because the force depends upon a huge
microwave density in the cavity, and as energy is consumed in
accelerating the device, it is drawn from this microwave energy.
However there is no reason why it shouldn't provide a continuous
acceleration force if the energy in the cavity is replaced as fast
as it is used.

It's like pouring water into a leaky bucket. If your pour water in
as fast as it leaks out, then the bucket stays full.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.



------=_Part_31523_16913077.1158316171697-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 15 04:54:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8FBrjP3026468; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 04:53:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8FBrhRJ026452; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 04:53:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 04:53:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To; b=Pr+duN2dzUgnLXXYE/y4pk4Br6VC5HCxD9HpkDVDRmFdVbDPGFK5lkdOAT2liWfBcbK0oSEf1uJoGIoylu046iuoI+b6PNAnjRHC8uuZQrGPsGCcadzvAvFLugmdOLWFh4urywMaO1DADDOoel2IYwciWi/0PtmubOQUL9tNQeI= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Robin Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 12:27:01 +0100 Message-ID: <002d01c6d8b9$e07dad80$6b00a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbYRmT5QNnAFye6RQKUCCWHSnK6JQActAXQ In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70721 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry Robin, that's rubbish below. I won't contribute to this thread if you can't get concrete in what you're thinking. You want cusp like changes in field lines from shaking magnets about at low speed? Go check JJ Thompson's construction for radiation of EM fields from a dipole (I might scan it in) or check out Braking Radiation or Cyclotron Radiation. >Robin>The point is that tangled magnetic field lines release energy under some circumstances. My question is, and remains, why can't that be done here in the lab, and can you think of a better way of tangling field lines than spinning magnets? Maybe this is my mistake. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 15 08:46:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8FFjrH9029328; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 08:45:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8FFjp0J029299; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 08:45:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 08:45:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=udpQ4rJFPA6+eCm9BZB4y0s0pVh+f11dWnvelL5HhRHskjyS51wU7vC3ZZbATDns0swCjb1/jPSmVWcS7fyZU3mu8BI0JUBsajXAcfZ3gWF7RjIa2mvo2kAnWT43hbPMphlp2ChX0e/T/MASYRVKmkyKPchAEKUeysjUkruhjn8= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 08:45:48 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor In-Reply-To: <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70722 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: if its based on difference in wave velocity, wouldnt stationary be based on the surrounding radiation fields? and if so... now, uber amateur here, im einsteinian, in that, im great with theory, weak with mathematics, would two of these drives mounted at an angle to each other, say, a 90 between them, cause them to appear stationary to each other, allowing a force in two directions that, while only half the force would be forward, if the efficiency doesnt reduce, that might be more effective. hell, you could steer by swiveling the arrays, and changing the efficiency, allowing one to push harder. hmmm, and now im imagining an array of 28 or more of these, mounted in basically a sphere, all pointing inwards. motion sensors controlling them, mounted in the center of a ship, any impact motion being instantly translated to a swiveling of one or more emdrives to balance and cancel. a sort of star trek inertial dampener? On 9/14/06, Wesley Bruce wrote: > > A stationary emdrive can still push a ship in a given direction. It becomes > an inertial anchor. An inertial anchor resists being moved but does not move > itself. You can push down or back on it and it wont move but pulling upon it > and it moves freely. A craft with an inertial anchor on it can jack forward > against the mass and drive force of the anchor. It can then pull the anchor > forward pulling against only the mass of the drive. The result is a dynamic > mechanical asymmetry. The emdrive would probably be jacked back and forth by > a linear motor or a crank driving a rod. For smooth operation you need > several Inertial Anchors cycling out of phase to produce uniform forward > momentum. Interestingly you could put emdrive inertial anchors on the ends > of a set of oars and simply "row" through outer space. A vac-suit would be > advisable. > > Colin Quinney wrote: > Hi Steven, > > I cannot follow it at that level, sorry. But I wonder how much information > has been filtered by the article writers- the reporters. > > Colin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: OrionWorks > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:20 PM > Subject: [Vo]: > > Hi Colin, > > Regarding this newfangled EM Drive, some things don't add up from my point > of view. In one article it was theorized by the researchers that the "force" > only works at maximum efficiency if the operating EMDrive is stationary, > that is, when it isn't moving. They went on to speculate that the force > emanating from the EMDrive weakens as velocity accumulates. It was therefore > suggested that the EMDrive (if it could be made strong enough while in the > stationary position) could only be used as a kind of anti/counter gravity > field. Kind of like a hovercraft. It was suggested that would then need to > employ a more prosaic, secondary force to propel the vehicle in any > direction. > > I have a big problem with this kind of logic. It all comes down to what one > understands about Einstin's theory of relativity. It's all "relative", as > they say. Whose is to say that the stationary DMDRIve object is really > stationary. To someone traveling at a constant speed of 2000 mph relative to > the EMDrive object, from that person's POV the EM Drive craft is speeding at > a constant speed of 2000 mph. Therefore, from the stationary person's > perspective the DMDrive should not operate as efficiently as compared to an > individual who is actually traveling at the same speed as the DMDrive > object. That's what the researchers seem to be implying. > > Such logic clearly produces two conflicting POV's, where one individual > (moving at the same speed as the object) perceives the force from the > DMDrive as greater than the forced as perceived by the other individual (who > is stationary). Huston, we have a problem. > > Something doesn't add up right here. > > The only way I think they could get around this seeming contradiction would > be if the alleged weakening of the EMDrive force only becomes noticeable as > the object approaches the speed of light, that is, from the perspective of a > stationary observer. IOW, the weakening would manifest on the same grand > scale as how objects are perceived to flatten (and gain mass) as they > approach the speed of light, again as perceived by individuals at a > stationary position. However, when one reads the article this doesn't appear > to be the case. The article seems to imply that the EMDrive force weakens > pretty soon after it speeds up implying that the effects of relativity play > virtually no role whatsoever. > > This would appear to be a blatant contradiction of logic. > > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.Zazzle.com/orionworks > > > > > > > > > > Hi Steven, > > > > Coincidentally it also appeared in last > > week Sept.9's cover story for New Scientist. > > http://www.newscientist.com/archive.ns > > > > Regarding it's speculative nature... > > > > > > On the negative side: > > > > I have heard that in one of their experiments they > > utilized an electric balance (I'm assuming a digital scale) > > and that the thick power supply wires might have > > interfered with one of their experiments. > > Others have noted .. > > It violates (apparently) the law of > > momentum.There are several other possibilities of artefacts > > such as heat build-up causing hot gas to escape from the MW cavity? > > Or possible coulomb artefact due to charge build-up > > across the assembly? > > Or interaction with the earth's magnetic > > field? > > And strange that it is only patented in the UK. > > > > > > On the positive side: > > > > Anyone familiar with microwave cavity and waveguide > > work.. can inexpensively build the unit with a kitchen microwave, sheet > > copper, and tubing. > > > > - - - > > > > In attempting to take a particular "side" in > > the controversy what are your potential rewards vs. your potential > > risks? > > **IF** we are curious AND we have building > > experience with waveguides etc... we might decide to (quietly) attempt a > > replication. I suspect some folks are doing just that. > > > > Ridicule is anathema to science. > > So also is believing everything we > > read. > > As in all things in > > life we must find that 'balance'. > > > > Colin > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: > > OrionWorks > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:38 > > AM > > Subject: [Vo]: EM Drives, revisited > > Recapping the potential ramifications of the highly speculative > > "EM Drive" > proposal.See:http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticleID=295931(Sorry, > > Tinyurl.com was down when trying to make the abbreviated version of this > > link.)If this speculative research turns out to be true, one can > > quickly extrapolate what the possibilities might quickly lead to, > particularly > > if Mark Golde's RTS Room Temperature Superconducting material were also to > > become available on the market soon.From my perspective it seems > > conceivable that fast and efficient "EM Drives" could open up commercial > space > > exploration of the asteroid belt, where everyone knows that's where the > next > > Gold Gush is likely to exist in the form unlimited raw materials just > waiting > > to be mined.Sometimes I wish I was 20 years old again.Have > > Space Suit, will travel.Regards,Steven Vincent > > Johnsonwww.OrionWorks.comwww.zazzle.com/orionworks > > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 15 08:52:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8FFqe6L001355; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 08:52:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8FFqamM001302; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 08:52:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 08:52:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=JxgIU9xDjFt5QusnFbpu2FYvbpSyV19ufYgViz3x6bO/vX0dkKxirERpAeIcEbGR2s6wsZ6q9SSN3Ejk4J3NKIWiwCYyPrwXsqEqXh4kIz9PQmYOVcIzJsCuugStchxLEgFFt3IhierR1mPnTSmpOU2NsH77awWwfqOy8T4Z1g8= ; Message-ID: <003801c6d8de$f40fbfd0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 08:52:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0035_01C6D8A4.46B68240" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70723 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C6D8A4.46B68240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Premise of this quasi-Utopian vision: If the USA were to undertake a = concerted national effort, we could eliminate all oil imports in five = years and fully and completely extricate ourselves from all political = and military involvement in those hostile parts of the world which have = become our worst nightmare... not to mention, created a cash drain which = has driven us to near bankruptcy. We could also bring back a million = lost manufacturing jobs and 150,000 troops.=20 The downside: we must give up the myth of free-trade. Not to mention the = myth that we are the World-police - and can get rid of all dictators and = end civil wars. Home grown problems require home grown solutions. Free-trade never worked, and moreover was never "free" anyway. It has = always been a poorly disguised accommodation to the greed of a small = segment of corporate America. Whether or not this 180 degree reversal in = policy is a true downside feature of this neo-5-year plan, outlined = below - well, that depends on your evolving world-view. For years, I = bought into the free-trade myth, but now am convinced that it does not = work, guarantees nothing but eventual poverty through loss of factory = jobs, and that it should be abandoned in favor of a kind of limited = national full-employment scheme.=20 This net effect of this is that China and the middle-East will suffer, = but working Americans, and the abandoned middle class, will prosper once = again by retaining the jobs and capital which we now export to these = regions. Scenario for summer of 2008: Gasoline is $8 gallon but not-to-worry. We = have retooled much of the domestic auto industry by working 24/7 on a = new standard design - shared by all manufacturers. This was funded by = the $500 billion saved by an early withdrawal from the middle-East. We = have told all foreign and domestic auto companies that they will have to = manufacture most of this vehicle *only here* for the first 5 years, = before importing from low-wage areas. Every "other" new car which is sold or imported following this date - = especially SUVs, gas-guzzlers and the like, will pay a hefty penalty = into a pool which is to be split by purchasers of only this new 150 MPG = design, which any domestic maker can share - and in a myriad of styles, = but with common drive train parts (at least at the start). After 5 = years, it is back to normal competition. This is an emergency measure, = in case you hadn't noticed (the symptoms of a near-death patient). The new automobile base-design - with which to accomplish this miracle = is a hybrid, like the Prius but more complicated, and about the same = price. We will call it the "V" car. V for victory over OPEC - like the = victory gardens of WWII. In fact, when you buy this new car, you buy both the car and a small = mini-factor which is installed in your garage by the dealer. It is a = turnkey operation which is partly subsidized by the grid power company, = which will be getting most of what you previously spent for gasoline = (but not all). This unit is about the size of a hot-water heater, and is = intended to be operated at night at reduced power cost. It is connected = to the car by a single hose-power-cord - and performs two other = functions in addition to recharging the small number of batteries. BTW - no breakthrough is required for batteries (the "bettery" is not = needed), although that particular advance, if it happens, would be = beneficial for reducing weight. Of course if a huge advance were to be = made and the real bettery become a reality (which has been promised for = the past several decades but, like hot-fusion, is always only 5 more = years away) then none of the following complexity will be needed. The = same, of course, goes for the MPI/Strain/Stoern magnetic motor or = solid-state generator, should they mature in time. Notwithstanding that major breakthrough, the hybrid car itself will need = no large engine, just a tiny genset - similar in size to a present day = turbocharger - except that the compressor-end is gone and replaced with = a high speed electrical generator - operating at only one speed (100,000 = RPM) and about 20 kW output - used to keep the batteries charged for = longer trips than the 10 miles they can go with no genset.=20 This is basically a tiny steam engine. A slightly larger radiator is = there, but it is used to condense some of the steam back to water so = that less need be carried. The steam is made mostly from water which has = been converted onboard into HTP (high test peroxide), but zero HTP = (which is dangerous) is carried aboard the vehicle. How can that be??? Simple, my dear Watson - it is all manufactured and = enriched continuously and "just in time" (as detailed in the next = posting).=20 There is a small tank for carrying a few gallons of biodiesel (or fossil = fuel). The vehicle will get about 150 MPG or more, based on the fossil = fuel, so only a modest amount is needed. Much more HTP is needed but = there is little cost involved there. Several gallons per hour of HTP will be needed to be made. For every = gallon of biodiesel burned (to go that 150 miles) you will need about 5 = gallons of HTP which will supply all of the oxidizer in liquid form and = about half the net energy. The space required for the reactor and = enrichment cascade will almost fit where the missing engine was. The = Carnot efficiency of this system is near 65% which is technically not = possible without the fuel value of the peroxide. Stay tuned, more details on how this can be done in the short-term will = follow. Jones=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C6D8A4.46B68240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Premise of this quasi-Utopian vision: If the USA were to undertake = a=20 concerted national effort, we could eliminate all oil imports in five = years and=20 fully and completely extricate ourselves from all political and military = involvement in those hostile parts of the world which have become our = worst=20 nightmare... not to mention, created a cash drain which = has driven us=20 to near bankruptcy. We could also bring back a million lost = manufacturing jobs=20 and 150,000 troops.
 
The downside: we must give up the myth of free-trade. Not to = mention the=20 myth that we are the World-police - and can get rid of all dictators and = end=20 civil wars. Home grown problems require home grown solutions.
 
Free-trade never worked, and moreover was never "free" anyway. = It has=20 always been a poorly disguised accommodation to the greed of a small = segment of=20 corporate America. Whether or not this 180 degree reversal in = policy is a=20 true downside feature of this neo-5-year plan, outlined below - = well, that=20 depends on your evolving world-view. For years, I bought into the = free-trade=20 myth, but now am convinced that it does not work, guarantees nothing but = eventual poverty through loss of factory jobs, and that it should = be=20 abandoned in favor of a kind of limited national full-employment scheme. =
 
This net effect of this is that China and the middle-East will = suffer, but=20 working Americans, and the abandoned middle class, will prosper = once again=20 by retaining the jobs and capital which we now export to these = regions.
 
Scenario for summer of 2008: Gasoline is $8 gallon but = not-to-worry. We=20 have retooled much of the domestic auto industry by working 24/7 on a = new=20 standard design - shared by all manufacturers. This was funded by the = $500=20 billion saved by an early withdrawal from the middle-East. We have told = all=20 foreign and domestic auto companies that they will have to manufacture = most=20 of this vehicle *only here* for the first 5 years, before importing = from=20 low-wage areas.
 
Every "other" new car which is sold or imported following this = date -=20 especially SUVs, gas-guzzlers and the like, will pay a hefty = penalty into a=20 pool which is to be split by purchasers of only this new 150 MPG = design,=20 which any domestic maker can share - and in a myriad of styles, but with = common=20 drive train parts (at least at the start). After 5 years, it is back to = normal=20 competition. This is an emergency measure, in case you hadn't noticed = (the=20 symptoms of a near-death patient).
 
The new automobile base-design - with which to accomplish this = miracle is a hybrid, like the Prius but more complicated, and about = the=20 same price. We will call it the "V" car. V for victory over OPEC - = like the=20 victory gardens of WWII.
 
In fact, when you buy this new car, you buy both the car and a = small=20 mini-factor which is installed in your garage by the dealer. It is a = turnkey=20 operation which is partly subsidized by the grid power company, which = will be=20 getting most of what you previously spent for gasoline (but not all). = This unit=20 is about the size of a hot-water heater, and is intended to be operated = at night=20 at reduced power cost. It is connected to the car by a single = hose-power-cord -=20 and performs two other functions in addition to recharging the small = number of=20 batteries.
 
BTW - no breakthrough is required for batteries (the "bettery" is = not=20 needed), although that particular advance, if it happens, would be = beneficial=20 for reducing weight. Of course if a huge advance were to be made and the = real=20 bettery become a reality (which has been promised for the past several = decades=20 but, like hot-fusion, is always only 5 more years away) then none of the = following complexity will be needed. The same, of course, goes for the=20 MPI/Strain/Stoern magnetic motor or solid-state generator, should they = mature in=20 time.
 
Notwithstanding that major breakthrough, the hybrid car itself will = need no=20 large engine, just a tiny genset - similar in size to a present day = turbocharger=20 - except that the compressor-end is gone and replaced with a high = speed=20 electrical generator - operating at only one speed (100,000 RPM) and = about 20 kW=20 output - used to keep the batteries charged for longer trips than the 10 = miles=20 they can go with no genset.
 
This is basically a tiny steam engine. A slightly larger radiator = is there,=20 but it is used to condense some of the steam back to water so that less = need be=20 carried. The steam is made mostly from water which has been converted = onboard=20 into HTP (high test peroxide), but zero HTP (which is dangerous) is = carried=20 aboard the vehicle.
 
How can that be??? Simple, my dear Watson - it is all = manufactured and=20 enriched continuously and "just in time" (as detailed in the next = posting).=20
 
There is a small tank for carrying a few gallons of biodiesel (or = fossil=20 fuel). The vehicle will get about 150 MPG or more, based on the fossil=20 fuel, so only a modest amount is needed. Much more HTP is needed = but there=20 is little cost involved there.
 
Several gallons per hour of HTP will be needed to be made. For = every gallon=20 of biodiesel burned (to go that 150 miles) you will need about 5 gallons = of HTP=20 which will supply all of the oxidizer in liquid form and about half the = net=20 energy. The space required for the reactor and enrichment cascade will = almost=20 fit where the missing engine was. The Carnot efficiency of this system = is near=20 65% which is technically not possible without the fuel value of the=20 peroxide.
 
Stay tuned, more details on how this can be done in the short-term = will=20 follow.
 
Jones
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C6D8A4.46B68240-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 14 19:08:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8F27phm023013; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 19:07:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8F27nPR022979; Thu, 14 Sep 2006 19:07:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 19:07:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=hswe4pHpDM9woX5gJT0k5BeDHy39XkmHc9xTuMFUcULaFbczVmJV2wPOyxW8i82cud4ho7tWg8qBYq5a/GB4Zc9w2o1Vn9UMS1J7UKeiC/y8F86nbAaiemTdnkN9kM194pQKae/VG25gHBM0GvUuvwCbdtZQCI4i7ISSM05hnIo= ; Message-ID: <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Cc: References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 22:07:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0106_01C6D84A.351ED370" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70715 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0106_01C6D84A.351ED370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Steven, I cannot follow it at that level, sorry. But I wonder how much = information has been filtered by the article writers- the reporters. Colin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: OrionWorks=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:20 PM Subject: [Vo]:=20 Hi Colin, Regarding this newfangled EM Drive, some things don't add up from my = point of view. In one article it was theorized by the researchers that = the "force" only works at maximum efficiency if the operating EMDrive is = stationary, that is, when it isn't moving. They went on to speculate = that the force emanating from the EMDrive weakens as velocity = accumulates. It was therefore suggested that the EMDrive (if it could be = made strong enough while in the stationary position) could only be used = as a kind of anti/counter gravity field. Kind of like a hovercraft. It = was suggested that would then need to employ a more prosaic, secondary = force to propel the vehicle in any direction. I have a big problem with this kind of logic. It all comes down to = what one understands about Einstin's theory of relativity. It's all = "relative", as they say. Whose is to say that the stationary DMDRIve = object is really stationary. To someone traveling at a constant speed of = 2000 mph relative to the EMDrive object, from that person's POV the EM = Drive craft is speeding at a constant speed of 2000 mph. Therefore, from = the stationary person's perspective the DMDrive should not operate as = efficiently as compared to an individual who is actually traveling at = the same speed as the DMDrive object. That's what the researchers seem = to be implying. Such logic clearly produces two conflicting POV's, where one = individual (moving at the same speed as the object) perceives the force = from the DMDrive as greater than the forced as perceived by the other = individual (who is stationary). Huston, we have a problem. Something doesn't add up right here. The only way I think they could get around this seeming contradiction = would be if the alleged weakening of the EMDrive force only becomes = noticeable as the object approaches the speed of light, that is, from = the perspective of a stationary observer. IOW, the weakening would = manifest on the same grand scale as how objects are perceived to flatten = (and gain mass) as they approach the speed of light, again as perceived = by individuals at a stationary position. However, when one reads the = article this doesn't appear to be the case. The article seems to imply = that the EMDrive force weakens pretty soon after it speeds up implying = that the effects of relativity play virtually no role whatsoever. This would appear to be a blatant contradiction of logic. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks >=20 >=20 > Hi Steven, >=20 > Coincidentally it also appeared in last=20 > week Sept.9's cover story for New Scientist. > http://www.newscientist.com/archive.ns >=20 > Regarding it's speculative nature... >=20 >=20 > On the negative side: >=20 > I have heard that in one of their experiments they=20 > utilized an electric balance (I'm assuming a digital scale) > and that the thick power supply wires might have=20 > interfered with one of their experiments. > Others have noted .. > It violates (apparently) the law of=20 > momentum.There are several other possibilities of artefacts=20 > such as heat build-up causing hot gas to escape from the MW cavity? > Or possible coulomb artefact due to charge build-up=20 > across the assembly? > Or interaction with the earth's magnetic=20 > field? > And strange that it is only patented in the UK.=20 >=20 >=20 > On the positive side: >=20 > Anyone familiar with microwave cavity and waveguide=20 > work.. can inexpensively build the unit with a kitchen microwave, = sheet=20 > copper, and tubing. >=20 > - - - >=20 > In attempting to take a particular "side" in=20 > the controversy what are your potential rewards vs. your potential=20 > risks?=20 > **IF** we are curious AND we have building=20 > experience with waveguides etc... we might decide to (quietly) = attempt a=20 > replication. I suspect some folks are doing just that. >=20 > Ridicule is anathema to science. > So also is believing everything we=20 > read. > As in all things in=20 > life we must find that 'balance'.=20 >=20 > Colin >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 >=20 > From:=20 > OrionWorks=20 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:38=20 > AM > Subject: [Vo]: EM Drives, revisited > Recapping the potential ramifications of the highly speculative=20 > "EM Drive" = proposal.See:http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticle= ID=3D295931(Sorry,=20 > Tinyurl.com was down when trying to make the abbreviated version of = this=20 > link.)If this speculative research turns out to be true, one can=20 > quickly extrapolate what the possibilities might quickly lead to, = particularly=20 > if Mark Golde's RTS Room Temperature Superconducting material were = also to=20 > become available on the market soon.From my perspective it seems=20 > conceivable that fast and efficient "EM Drives" could open up = commercial space=20 > exploration of the asteroid belt, where everyone knows that's where = the next=20 > Gold Gush is likely to exist in the form unlimited raw materials = just waiting=20 > to be mined.Sometimes I wish I was 20 years old again.Have=20 > Space Suit, will travel.Regards,Steven Vincent=20 > Johnsonwww.OrionWorks.comwww.zazzle.com/orionworks >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0106_01C6D84A.351ED370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Steven,
 
I cannot follow it at that level, = sorry. But I=20 wonder how much information has been filtered by the article writers- = the=20 reporters.
 
Colin
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 OrionWorks
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, = 2006 10:20=20 PM
Subject: [Vo]:

Hi Colin,

Regarding this newfangled EM Drive, = some=20 things don't add up from my point of view. In one article it was = theorized by=20 the researchers that the "force" only works at maximum efficiency if = the=20 operating EMDrive is stationary, that is, when it isn't moving. They = went on=20 to speculate that the force emanating from the EMDrive weakens as = velocity=20 accumulates. It was therefore suggested that the EMDrive (if it could = be made=20 strong enough while in the stationary position) could only be used as = a kind=20 of anti/counter gravity field. Kind of like a hovercraft. It was = suggested=20 that would then need to employ a more prosaic, secondary force to = propel the=20 vehicle in any direction.

I have a big problem with this kind = of logic.=20 It all comes down to what one understands about Einstin's theory of=20 relativity. It's all "relative", as they say. Whose is to say that the = stationary DMDRIve object is really stationary. To someone traveling = at a=20 constant speed of 2000 mph relative to the EMDrive object, from that = person's=20 POV the EM Drive craft is speeding at a constant speed of 2000 mph. = Therefore,=20 from the stationary person's perspective the DMDrive should not = operate as=20 efficiently as compared to an individual who is actually traveling at = the same=20 speed as the DMDrive object. That's what the researchers seem to be=20 implying.

Such logic clearly produces two conflicting POV's, = where one=20 individual (moving at the same speed as the object) perceives the = force from=20 the DMDrive as greater than the forced as perceived by the other = individual=20 (who is stationary). Huston, we have a problem.

Something = doesn't add=20 up right here.

The only way I think they could get around this = seeming=20 contradiction would be if the alleged weakening of the EMDrive force = only=20 becomes noticeable as the object approaches the speed of light, that = is, from=20 the perspective of a stationary observer. IOW, the weakening would = manifest on=20 the same grand scale as how objects are perceived to flatten (and gain = mass)=20 as they approach the speed of light, again as perceived by individuals = at a=20 stationary position. However, when one reads the article this doesn't = appear=20 to be the case. The article seems to imply that the EMDrive force = weakens=20 pretty soon after it speeds up implying that the effects of relativity = play=20 virtually no role whatsoever.

This would appear to be a blatant = contradiction of logic.


Regards,
Steven Vincent=20 = Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks



>=20
>
> Hi Steven,
>
> Coincidentally it also = appeared=20 in last
> week Sept.9's cover story for New Scientist.
>=20 http://www.newscientist.com/archive.ns
>
> Regarding it's = speculative nature...
>
>
> On the negative = side:
>=20
> I have heard that in one of their experiments they
> = utilized=20 an electric balance (I'm assuming a digital scale)
> and that = the thick=20 power supply wires might have
> interfered with one of their=20 experiments.
> Others have noted ..
> It violates = (apparently) the=20 law of
> momentum.There are several other possibilities of = artefacts=20
> such as heat build-up causing hot gas to escape from the MW=20 cavity?
> Or possible coulomb artefact due to charge build-up =
>=20 across the assembly?
> Or interaction with the earth's magnetic =
>=20 field?
> And strange that it is only patented in the UK. =
>=20
>
> On the positive side:
>
> Anyone = familiar with=20 microwave cavity and waveguide
> work.. can inexpensively build = the=20 unit with a kitchen microwave, sheet
> copper, and = tubing.
>=20
> - - -
>
> In attempting to take a particular = "side" in=20
> the controversy what are your potential rewards vs. your = potential=20
> risks?
> **IF** we are curious AND we have building =
>=20 experience with waveguides etc... we might decide to (quietly) attempt = a=20
> replication. I suspect some folks are doing just = that.
>=20
> Ridicule is anathema to science.
> So also is believing = everything we
> read.
> As in all things in
> life = we must=20 find that 'balance'.
>
> Colin
>
> ----- = Original=20 Message -----
>
> From:
> OrionWorks
> To: = vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:38 =
> AM
> Subject: [Vo]: EM Drives, revisited
> = Recapping the=20 potential ramifications of the highly speculative
> "EM Drive"=20 = proposal.See:http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/Article.aspx?liArticle= ID=3D295931(Sorry,=20
> Tinyurl.com was down when trying to make the abbreviated = version of=20 this
> link.)If this speculative research turns out to be true, = one can=20
> quickly extrapolate what the possibilities might quickly lead = to,=20 particularly
> if Mark Golde's RTS Room Temperature = Superconducting=20 material were also to
> become available on the market = soon.From my=20 perspective it seems
> conceivable that fast and efficient "EM = Drives"=20 could open up commercial space
> exploration of the asteroid = belt,=20 where everyone knows that's where the next
> Gold Gush is = likely to=20 exist in the form unlimited raw materials just waiting
> to be=20 mined.Sometimes I wish I was 20 years old again.Have
> Space = Suit, will=20 travel.Regards,Steven Vincent
>=20 Johnsonwww.OrionWorks.comwww.zazzle.com/orionworks
>=20
------=_NextPart_000_0106_01C6D84A.351ED370-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 15 09:56:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8FGuEC4010073; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:56:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8FGuDJc010045; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:56:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:56:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=AEPFVS/0fjLEFj19GgpXBkVY+f2z+WG+llMwDurVtb6Oa0gwAlCzRt+DKhr2r3HhfnL6xiCugbLpwqaGHJ3PtSNF52J1ELXK+gLAabwk/S6FcXXjlq17ZkUcKeOcDhO/PGWCzy/G56wPGnj3sZwFjZ+VgjISev0UxDZg7kxccms= ; Message-ID: <018801c6d8e7$cfd22aa0$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 12:55:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70724 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: FWIW, I think Robin has the correct interpretation here, much better than the reporter(s). Not just professional scientists do that but even reporters filter or interpret according to their own "world views". Engineers do it. Technicians do it. In fact, we all it.... Even part time tinkerers like myself- do it :) Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 3:13 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor > In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:41:50 > +1000: > Hi, > [snip] >>A stationary emdrive can still push a ship in a given direction. It >>becomes an inertial anchor. An inertial anchor resists being moved but >>does not move itself. You can push down or back on it and it wont move >>but pulling upon it and it moves freely. A craft with an inertial anchor >>on it can jack forward against the mass and drive force of the anchor. >>It can then pull the anchor forward pulling against only the mass of the >>drive. The result is a dynamic mechanical asymmetry. The emdrive would >>probably be jacked back and forth by a linear motor or a crank driving a >>rod. For smooth operation you need several Inertial Anchors cycling out >>of phase to produce uniform forward momentum. Interestingly you could >>put emdrive inertial anchors on the ends of a set of oars and simply >>"row" through outer space. A vac-suit would be advisable. > [snip] > As I understand it however, the actual drive in question is not an > inertial anchor. It's just that the force drops off as it starts > to accelerate. This is because the force depends upon a huge > microwave density in the cavity, and as energy is consumed in > accelerating the device, it is drawn from this microwave energy. > However there is no reason why it shouldn't provide a continuous > acceleration force if the energy in the cavity is replaced as fast > as it is used. > > It's like pouring water into a leaky bucket. If your pour water in > as fast as it leaks out, then the bucket stays full. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 15 16:09:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8FN95RK017827; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:09:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8FN92RN017798; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:09:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:09:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <003a01c6d91b$e85f6c70$6e027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Vo Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 18:08:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0036_01C6D8F1.FEF9CEA0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70725 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C6D8F1.FEF9CEA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0037_01C6D8F1.FEF9CEA0" ------=_NextPart_001_0037_01C6D8F1.FEF9CEA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote, >How can that be??? Simple, my dear Watson=20 Howdy Jones, We just happen to have a Dr. Watson over in Waxahatchie Texas although = he is not presently driving one of Jones new vehicles which should come = off the assembly lines at the new Toyota plant near San Antonio in a few = years. One of the problems Toyota is experiencing is the absence of skilled = labor and technicians at this plant. They hire grownups and discover = they are functionally illiterate, totally lack simple work ethic and = hand skills. Some are already deaf from boom box music, weakened from = poor diets and unable to carry a full 8 hour work shift, refuse to work = 2nd and 3rd shift. in extreme poor health and poor sleep habits, = dependent on drugs and stimulants, social diseases and suffering from a = host of allergies. These young people have no social graces, cannot be = guided, refuse directions and balk at taking any orders. Their expectations are focused on being a $ 20 mil dollar draft baseball = player, lotto winner or manna from heaven. Huge starting salaries, = benefit package and vacation time. They have been promised the world. = They are taught by their music and movie culture , by public education = they can slide and still be rich professionals while smoking some mary- = gee- wauna. The labor unions are there in San Antonio to see they are = not disappointed. The politicos in Austin are there to see to it that = the state's investment of 250 mil bonds in the plant, plus the city's = investment of 6000 acres of land, all utilities and tax abatements are = in place. We could have a dream come true in the USA but 25 years of = retrogression in our youth and moral decay has created a bit of a = problem in realization. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0037_01C6D8F1.FEF9CEA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote,
 
>How can that be??? Simple, my dear Watson 

Howdy Jones,

We just happen to have a Dr. Watson over in Waxahatchie Texas = although he is=20 not presently driving one of Jones new vehicles which should come off = the=20 assembly lines at the new Toyota plant near San Antonio in a few = years.

One of the problems Toyota is experiencing is the absence of skilled = labor=20 and technicians at this plant. They hire grownups and discover they are=20 functionally illiterate, totally lack simple work ethic and hand skills. = Some=20 are already deaf from boom box music, weakened from poor diets and = unable to=20 carry a full 8 hour work shift, refuse to work 2nd and 3rd shift. in = extreme=20 poor health and poor sleep habits, dependent on drugs and = stimulants,=20 social diseases and suffering from a host of allergies. These young = people have=20 no social graces, cannot be guided, refuse directions and balk at taking = any=20 orders.

Their expectations are focused on being a $ 20 mil dollar draft = baseball=20 player, lotto winner or manna from heaven. Huge starting salaries, = benefit=20 package and vacation time. They have been promised the world. They are = taught by=20 their music and movie culture , by public education they can slide and = still be=20 rich professionals while smoking some mary- gee- wauna. The labor unions = are=20 there in San Antonio to see they are not disappointed. The politicos in = Austin=20 are there to see to it that the state's investment of 250 mil bonds in = the=20 plant, plus the city's investment of 6000 acres of land, all utilities = and tax=20 abatements are in place.

We could have a  dream come true in the USA but 25 years of=20 retrogression in our youth and moral decay has created a bit of a = problem=20 in realization.

Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0037_01C6D8F1.FEF9CEA0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C6D8F1.FEF9CEA0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003501c6d91b$e7c6aee0$6e027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C6D8F1.FEF9CEA0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 15 17:12:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8G0CY7K012143; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:12:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8G0CW8p012131; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:12:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:12:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net><010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583><450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:12:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70726 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: John Berry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 6:27 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor >What you should note is that this device if it works at all MUST violate >the conservation of energy, there is no way round it, if you use it to >accelerate or row for >10 seconds and it accelerated it to 1 meter a second >using .5KWh say, then if you run it for 20 seconds you'd have used 1KWh, >have 2 meters a second velocity >but the energy contained in forward >movement of your ship is 4 times that of running the engines for the 10 >seconds. No. Assume a 1000kg spacecraft at initially velocity 0m/s. (we will ignore the "relatives" here for now, more on this later) Assume that this spacecraft uses its reactionless propulsion system (whatever it may be) to accelerate to approximately v=0.1c, or 29,979,246 m/s. We will ignore relativistic effects at this time. The energy require to get to this velocity will be K = 1/2 m v^2, or in this case, 4.494x10^17J. Not a small amount. But what is the energy required then to accelerate the craft to only v=0.05c? 1.123x10^17J, or 25% of that required to reach 0.1c. Now of course this makes sense, the square of velocity and all that. What it also indicates is that to go from v=0c to v=0.1c you must use increasing energy as time goes by. If you use a constant energy per unit time (I am using only basic units here to avoid confusion) you will find your acceleration tapers off rapidly as velocity is increased. So, if you use say (changing from kWh to something that is easier to follow, kW) 0.5kW for 10 seconds, on a 10,000kg object, the kinetic energy gained by the object is 5kJ, and our object is moving at a gentle 1m/s. This of course assumes that your method of converting electrical energy input to kinetic energy is 100% efficient. But...if we apply 0.5kW for 20 seconds, we have added 10kJ to our 10,000kg object, and its velocity is now...only 1.414m/sec. Can you get to 0.1c with a constant-power drive? Absolutely, but it will take much longer to get there, and efficiency will drop as speed increases, and fall rapidly the faster you try to go. If on the other hand, you use a constant-acceleration approach, you get there (to your desired speed) much faster, but you use an ever increasing amount of power. The total energy to reach 0.1c for constant-power or constant-acceleration is the same. Now here's something interesting. If drive efficiency in attaining some velocity from some given energy input decreases like this over time, as velocity builds up, it would seem to imply that an absolute velocity is important. A very big no-no when it comes to relativity as we know it. (or as we like to know it) You can have a reactionless drive which conserves energy globally, but to do this it will demonstrate some rather odd effects (at first glance) which later once you have juggled it in your mind for a while, really don't end up so confusing in the end. But it does seem to lead to one reference frame being preferred, and acting as the "road" for your hypothesized "space car". If a reactionless drive is constructed successfully, one wonders about its uses to test relativity in a new and unique way. I'll let you think on that for a bit. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 15 20:25:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8G3P4Ja022220; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:25:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8G3P2Bi022199; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:25:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:25:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=QJB6bsnLO2zZVNPDH/p01kLmaxzmr7+9wKmyHtsFfcLYGlwqBmMyiMkLOnF5+9+6; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006961632533200@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:25:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8f61ef9bac2a6258346d6478d88d26111a8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.232.9.154 Resent-Message-ID: <4AznmB.A.vaF.O62CFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70727 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 15, 2006 Status: O X-Status: Sept. 15, 2006 > [Original Message] From: What's New To: Date: 9/15/2006 2:23:49 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 15, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 15 Sep 06 Washington, DC 1. PROLIFERATION: IAEA DISPUTES HOUSE COMMITTEE REPORT ON IRAN. Who would have thought that relations between the U.S. and the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency could get worse? The IAEA complains that a House Intelligence Committee staff report, "contains erroneous, misleading and unsubstantiated information" about Iran's nuclear program. Sound familiar? A caption in the House report says Tehran is "enriching uranium to weapons grade," but the facility shown only enriches to 3.6%, enough for power production, but far from the level needed for weapons. Before the U.S. invaded Iraq, the IAEA had insisted, despite American objections, that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, and later showed that some White House claims were based on forged documents. After the fall of the Saddam government, the U.S blocked IAEA inspections of damage to Iraq's nuclear facilities. But in a stunning vindication of the IAEA, Mohammed ElBaradei, director general of IAEA, was awarded the 2005 Nobel Peace Prize http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn100705.html . 2. SPACE: INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION UNFURLS NEW SOLAR PANELS. The world's most expensive scientific laboratory installed additional solar panels yesterday, capable of producing 100 kilowatts or so of additional power for experiments. The panels cost $372 million to build, and about three times that much to send up to the ISS. Stand by for important new results. The only unique feature of a space environment is micro-gravity. One of the things you could study in micro-gravity is cavitation in spherical drops of water. A paper just published in Phys. Rev. Lett. reports important new insights from such studies except the experiments weren't done in space. They were done on a European Space Agency aircraft flying in parabolic arcs. 3. THIRD GREAT AWAKENING: BUSH SEES REVIVAL OF RELIGIOUS DEVOTION. The President told a group of conservative journalists this week that the "confrontation between good and evil" in the struggle with international terrorism has led to a revival of religious devotion. He believes it to be the Third Great Awaking. That may be, we secular types could fail to notice a revival or two, but according to Wikipedia we've already had four Great Awakenings. A survey released yesterday by Baylor University, however, does find Americans to be more active in religion than supposed. Baylor is a strict Baptist college in Waco, Texas. It was a frequent target of the late 19th century journalist William Cowper Brann, who published The Iconoclast. Brann's style was much like that of H.L. Mencken a generation later, and the Iconoclast had world-wide circulation. He printed frequent exposes of prominent Waco and Baylor citizens, and was shot to death on a Waco street. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 15 20:25:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8G3PJo9022417; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:25:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8G3PGbR022375; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:25:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:25:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=mxkoe7EmYpHLzKmJoIHfAJPZZoiSl3SOlaWsHCUHaX+Zl/Cwdhrxiepv0ZwPGqm+Ms8laSNCukpAaxJfWhSWWhufJF8Qe7f3QnPkBBSAY/qJosI3PcsCWmU+PbHDCQb151hDPNz7NDuH2ta+pwmmshm5Y2CQHBBgU7x1Gpg1Dag= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 23:25:12 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <8S5U2B.A.HdF.b62CFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70728 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Tipped Status: O X-Status: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1869000,00.html Siberian thaw to speed up global warming The release of trapped greenhouse gases is pushing the world past the point of no return on climate change. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 15 21:01:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8G40GgF005262; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:01:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8G3XQBW026614; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:33:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:33:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=e8AnVSQe4JpwAoczOwpE+QPSzyjIKDN7sLsDZWGCfbXJQNXEVTbXmbCdMuLi6I0rCXS8w1QyCHQzCU++Dn7qKK08qlquBH2OEc15/wEEQHluzBwsid2r1dTUz5ilLi6Lbut1ltl3q7F/IkdJqVtYdpAn9Rlz9/BlukH2cZI9XcE= ; Message-ID: <20060916033310.56085.qmail@web33312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:33:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 15, 2006 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <410-22006961632533200@ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2047475492-1158377590=:55565" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70729 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-2047475492-1158377590=:55565 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Religious devotion to good or Evil? CA Akira Kawasaki wrote: Sept. 15, 2006 > [Original Message] From: What's New To: Date: 9/15/2006 2:23:49 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 15, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 15 Sep 06 Washington, DC 1. PROLIFERATION: IAEA DISPUTES HOUSE COMMITTEE REPORT ON IRAN. Who would have thought that relations between the U.S. and the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency could get worse? The IAEA complains that a House Intelligence Committee staff report, "contains erroneous, misleading and unsubstantiated information" about Iran's nuclear program. Sound familiar? A caption in the House report says Tehran is "enriching uranium to weapons grade," but the facility shown only enriches to 3.6%, enough for power production, but far from the level needed for weapons. Before the U.S. invaded Iraq, the IAEA had insisted, despite American objections, that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, and later showed that some White House claims were based on forged documents. After the fall of the Saddam government, the U.S blocked IAEA inspections of damage to Iraq's nuclear facilities. But in a stunning vindication of the IAEA, Mohammed ElBaradei, director general of IAEA, was awarded the 2005 Nobel Peace Prize http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn100705.html . 2. SPACE: INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION UNFURLS NEW SOLAR PANELS. The world's most expensive scientific laboratory installed additional solar panels yesterday, capable of producing 100 kilowatts or so of additional power for experiments. The panels cost $372 million to build, and about three times that much to send up to the ISS. Stand by for important new results. The only unique feature of a space environment is micro-gravity. One of the things you could study in micro-gravity is cavitation in spherical drops of water. A paper just published in Phys. Rev. Lett. reports important new insights from such studies except the experiments weren't done in space. They were done on a European Space Agency aircraft flying in parabolic arcs. 3. THIRD GREAT AWAKENING: BUSH SEES REVIVAL OF RELIGIOUS DEVOTION. The President told a group of conservative journalists this week that the "confrontation between good and evil" in the struggle with international terrorism has led to a revival of religious devotion. He believes it to be the Third Great Awaking. That may be, we secular types could fail to notice a revival or two, but according to Wikipedia we've already had four Great Awakenings. A survey released yesterday by Baylor University, however, does find Americans to be more active in religion than supposed. Baylor is a strict Baptist college in Waco, Texas. It was a frequent target of the late 19th century journalist William Cowper Brann, who published The Iconoclast. Brann's style was much like that of H.L. Mencken a generation later, and the Iconoclast had world-wide circulation. He printed frequent exposes of prominent Waco and Baylor citizens, and was shot to death on a Waco street. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. --0-2047475492-1158377590=:55565 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Religious devotion to good or Evil?
 
CA
 

Akira Kawasaki <aki@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Sept. 15, 2006

> [Original Message]
From: What's New
To:
Date: 9/15/2006 2:23:49 PM
Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 15, 2006

WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 15 Sep 06 Washington, DC

1. PROLIFERATION: IAEA DISPUTES HOUSE COMMITTEE REPORT ON IRAN.
Who would have thought that relations between the U.S. and the
UN's International Atomic Energy Agency could get worse? The
IAEA complains that a House Intelligence Committee staff report,
"contains erroneous, misleading and unsubstantiated information"
about Iran's nuclear program. Sound familiar? A caption in the
House report says Tehran is "enriching uranium to weapons grade,"
but the facility shown only enriches to 3.6%, enough for power
production, but far from the level needed for weapons. Before
the U.S. invaded Iraq, the IAEA had insisted, despite American
objections, that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, and
later showed that some White House claims were based on forged
documents. After the fall of the Saddam government, the U.S
blocked IAEA inspections of damage to Iraq's nuclear facilities.
But in a stunning vindication of the IAEA, Mohammed ElBaradei,
director general of IAEA, was awarded the 2005 Nobel Peace Prize
http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn100705.html .

2. SPACE: INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION UNFURLS NEW SOLAR PANELS.
The world's most expensive scientific laboratory installed
additional solar panels yesterday, capable of producing 100
kilowatts or so of additional power for experiments. The panels
cost $372 million to build, and about three times that much to
send up to the ISS. Stand by for important new results. The only
unique feature of a space environment is micro-gravity. One of
the things you could study in micro-gravity is cavitation in
spherical drops of water. A paper just published in Phys. Rev.
Lett. reports important new insights from such studies except
the experiments weren't done in space. They were done on a
European Space Agency aircraft flying in parabolic arcs.

3. THIRD GREAT AWAKENING: BUSH SEES REVIVAL OF RELIGIOUS DEVOTION.
The President told a group of conservative journalists this week
that the "confrontation between good and evil" in the struggle
with international terrorism has led to a revival of religious
devotion. He believes it to be the Third Great Awaking. That may
be, we secular types could fail to notice a revival or two, but
according to Wikipedia we've already had four Great Awakenings. A
survey released yesterday by Baylor University, however, does find
Americans to be more active in religion than supposed. Baylor is
a strict Baptist college in Waco, Texas. It was a frequent target
of the late 19th century journalist William Cowper Brann, who
published The Iconoclast. Brann's style was much like that of
H.L. Mencken a generation later, and the Iconoclast had world-wide
circulation. He printed frequent exposes of prominent Waco and
Baylor citizens, and was shot to death on a Waco street.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
University of Maryland, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
status please visit this link:
http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1



Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. --0-2047475492-1158377590=:55565-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 15 21:22:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8G4MeNW022821; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:22:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8G4Mcpm022793; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:22:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:22:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,173,1157299200"; d="scan'208"; a="458032223:sNHT17260366396" Message-ID: <450B7BCB.5000001@iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 14:21:31 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Excess hydrogen without much excess heat References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060628150533.04056590@mindspring.com> <44A2E13C.8090104@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060628165502.03ed3d60@mindspring.com> <397901c69b7c$791de490$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20060629094316.03d3c470@mindspring.com> <002201c69b8e$329402e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060629112330.03ea8f38@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060629112330.03ea8f38@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70730 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >>> JR As far as I know he does. He has not described the O2 in detail. >>> It is not stochiometric; there is extra H2 because the O2 from >>> electrolysis at the anode is separated out by the inverted funnel. >> >> >> If it is not stochiometric then we can conclude that peroxides are >> being created in addition to the hydrogen evolved. > > > No, I mean it is not stochiometric because the oxygen from the anode > is diverted out of the cell via another tube. During ordinary > electrolysis, only hydrogen is captured. During pyrolysis a mixture of > hydrogen and oxygen evolves from the cathode, under the funnel, and > this is all captured. But if you ignite this effluent gas there will > be some left-over hydrogen. (Mizuno does not ignite it or recombine it.) > > - Jed > > Interesting read. Mizuno has not controlled for a cold plasma. If some of the hydrogen is ionized to a proton plasma and some of the oxygen is ionized to O2+ or O3+ the result is a cold plasma of monoatomic gases. This was already discussed by William A. Rhodes http://www.keelynet.com/energy/oxyhyd1.htm [Note the Email address, he is still around ]. Yull Brown, who never acknowledged Mr Rhodes prior work, and others in the water fuel area discussed this discovery extensively for years but no one ever got peer reviewed because of Rhodes prior rights. If the plasma is kept from contact with an electron source it will remain a plasma. This depends on the geometry of the cell and the bubble size alot. Its lack of valence electrons prevents the formation of H2 and O2 or H2O, some OH formation is possible if water vapor is available. Because the plasma is monoatomic it will have 2 moles, to H+, of gas not 1 mole of H2. It will have double the volume. The same goes for the Oxygen. It will give volumes of 2190 cc not 1144 cc for the same absolute mass of hydrogen. Note 2190 cc is approximately double the expected volume. A charged plasma will occupy a greater volume than an uncharged H2 gas because of repulsion. This is why the measurements for the times when only the plasma was on is almost 3 times the expected volume. If a cold plasma is present it will be cold relative to other hot plasmas but will hold other energy; the enthalpy difference between two H+ and H2 and the enthalpy difference between a plasma of H+ and O3+ and H2O. H+ and O3+ as plasmas can also disrupt solid materials, bonds and latices causing them to SEEM to burn at strangely low temperatures. Or seeming to give the gas an incredible energy density. Rhodes gas/plasma is used by jewelers because it cuts and welds metals with out cooking adjacent gems. I could design a test cell to detect the plasma. A mass spectrometer will be totally confused by a cold plasma. No valence electrons, no spectrum. In some experiments two decades ago the gas killed the expensive spectrometers. I need to send this stuff to Dr Mizuno does anyone have an email address? The volume of good stuff on Vortex is getting huge; its becoming overwhelming. And I only work three days a week! :-P From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 15 21:31:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8G4Uq03028214; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:30:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8G4UnkQ028186; Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:30:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:30:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=YGGJtrQFeQIt2qo78NR4HWIUkS2FVHju3ya+l9sCnsSTfstcU5EgWU+PkS9mHzFHFJYmuUUoV19INerY4AjPpIewFOnRLmGMp5oaZ2hYZHaXh5qqfeFTiLWcpWbVHMSuPxTylTtysluL+r+4szVqUkfc5ngk0aeNMGonw2S4u98= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:30:48 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor In-Reply-To: <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_46682_29579664.1158381048772" References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70731 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_46682_29579664.1158381048772 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No Kyle, your mistaken. There is no way it can work with a stationary reference frame as you say. The idea behind it being unable to accelerate and I believe it is just a theory is that ACCELERATION will cause a Doppler like effect and it will no longer be in resonance hence lower Q and lower EM bouncing in the box and hence lower force. You are right that without a stationary reference frame with which to measure energy against there is no way it can keep to the conservation of energy and regardless of whether or not this device works I'm sure such devices do exist which means conservation of energy really is just a general observation and not true in all cases. On 9/16/06, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Berry > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 6:27 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor > > > >What you should note is that this device if it works at all MUST violate > >the conservation of energy, there is no way round it, if you use it to > >accelerate or row for >10 seconds and it accelerated it to 1 meter a > second > >using .5KWh say, then if you run it for 20 seconds you'd have used 1KWh, > >have 2 meters a second velocity >but the energy contained in forward > >movement of your ship is 4 times that of running the engines for the 10 > >seconds. > > No. > > Assume a 1000kg spacecraft at initially velocity 0m/s. (we will ignore the > "relatives" here for now, more on this later) > > Assume that this spacecraft uses its reactionless propulsion system > (whatever it may be) to accelerate to approximately v=0.1c, or 29,979,246 > m/s. We will ignore relativistic effects at this time. The energy require > to > get to this velocity will be K = 1/2 m v^2, or in this case, 4.494x10^17J. > Not a small amount. But what is the energy required then to accelerate the > craft to only v=0.05c? 1.123x10^17J, or 25% of that required to reach 0.1c > . > Now of course this makes sense, the square of velocity and all that. What > it > also indicates is that to go from v=0c to v=0.1c you must use increasing > energy as time goes by. If you use a constant energy per unit time (I am > using only basic units here to avoid confusion) you will find your > acceleration tapers off rapidly as velocity is increased. > > So, if you use say (changing from kWh to something that is easier to > follow, > kW) 0.5kW for 10 seconds, on a 10,000kg object, the kinetic energy gained > by > the object is 5kJ, and our object is moving at a gentle 1m/s. This of > course > assumes that your method of converting electrical energy input to kinetic > energy is 100% efficient. > > But...if we apply 0.5kW for 20 seconds, we have added 10kJ to our 10,000kg > object, and its velocity is now...only 1.414m/sec. Can you get to 0.1cwith > a constant-power drive? Absolutely, but it will take much longer to get > there, and efficiency will drop as speed increases, and fall rapidly the > faster you try to go. If on the other hand, you use a > constant-acceleration > approach, you get there (to your desired speed) much faster, but you use > an > ever increasing amount of power. The total energy to reach 0.1c for > constant-power or constant-acceleration is the same. > > Now here's something interesting. If drive efficiency in attaining some > velocity from some given energy input decreases like this over time, as > velocity builds up, it would seem to imply that an absolute velocity is > important. A very big no-no when it comes to relativity as we know it. (or > as we like to know it) > > You can have a reactionless drive which conserves energy globally, but to > do > this it will demonstrate some rather odd effects (at first glance) which > later once you have juggled it in your mind for a while, really don't end > up > so confusing in the end. But it does seem to lead to one reference frame > being preferred, and acting as the "road" for your hypothesized "space > car". > If a reactionless drive is constructed successfully, one wonders about its > uses to test relativity in a new and unique way. I'll let you think on > that > for a bit. > > --Kyle > > ------=_Part_46682_29579664.1158381048772 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No Kyle, your mistaken.

There is no way it can work with a stationary reference frame as you say.

The idea behind it being unable to accelerate and I believe it is just a theory is that ACCELERATION will cause a Doppler like effect and it will no longer be in resonance hence lower Q and lower EM bouncing in the box and hence lower force.

You are right that without a stationary reference frame with which to measure energy against there is no way it can keep to the conservation of energy and regardless of whether or not this device works I'm sure such devices do exist which means conservation of energy really is just a general observation and not true in all cases.


On 9/16/06, Kyle R. Mcallister <weir@fdscience.org> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: John Berry
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor


>What you should note is that this device if it works at all MUST violate
>the conservation of energy, there is no way round it, if you use it to
>accelerate or row for >10 seconds and it accelerated it to 1 meter a second
>using .5KWh say, then if you run it for 20 seconds you'd have used 1KWh,
>have 2 meters a second velocity >but the energy contained in forward
>movement of your ship is 4 times that of running the engines for the 10
>seconds.

No.

Assume a 1000kg spacecraft at initially velocity 0m/s. (we will ignore the
"relatives" here for now, more on this later)

Assume that this spacecraft uses its reactionless propulsion system
(whatever it may be) to accelerate to approximately v=0.1c, or 29,979,246
m/s. We will ignore relativistic effects at this time. The energy require to
get to this velocity will be K = 1/2 m v^2, or in this case, 4.494x10^17J.
Not a small amount. But what is the energy required then to accelerate the
craft to only v=0.05c? 1.123x10^17J, or 25% of that required to reach 0.1c.
Now of course this makes sense, the square of velocity and all that. What it
also indicates is that to go from v=0c to v=0.1c you must use increasing
energy as time goes by. If you use a constant energy per unit time (I am
using only basic units here to avoid confusion) you will find your
acceleration tapers off rapidly as velocity is increased.

So, if you use say (changing from kWh to something that is easier to follow,
kW) 0.5kW for 10 seconds, on a 10,000kg object, the kinetic energy gained by
the object is 5kJ, and our object is moving at a gentle 1m/s. This of course
assumes that your method of converting electrical energy input to kinetic
energy is 100% efficient.

But...if we apply 0.5kW for 20 seconds, we have added 10kJ to our 10,000kg
object, and its velocity is now...only 1.414m/sec. Can you get to 0.1c with
a constant-power drive? Absolutely, but it will take much longer to get
there, and efficiency will drop as speed increases, and fall rapidly the
faster you try to go. If on the other hand, you use a constant-acceleration
approach, you get there (to your desired speed) much faster, but you use an
ever increasing amount of power. The total energy to reach 0.1c for
constant-power or constant-acceleration is the same.

Now here's something interesting. If drive efficiency in attaining some
velocity from some given energy input decreases like this over time, as
velocity builds up, it would seem to imply that an absolute velocity is
important. A very big no-no when it comes to relativity as we know it. (or
as we like to know it)

You can have a reactionless drive which conserves energy globally, but to do
this it will demonstrate some rather odd effects (at first glance) which
later once you have juggled it in your mind for a while, really don't end up
so confusing in the end. But it does seem to lead to one reference frame
being preferred, and acting as the "road" for your hypothesized "space car".
If a reactionless drive is constructed successfully, one wonders about its
uses to test relativity in a new and unique way. I'll let you think on that
for a bit.

--Kyle


------=_Part_46682_29579664.1158381048772-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 04:24:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8GBOQPK031670; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 04:24:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8GBOOEH031646; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 04:24:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 04:24:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To; b=AnBVyTNqVuJeC+kLuVEsO3+oC96s4PFjlJrFOJt5b7Rzfw298x37NrWkEK5l673E39rJq9vhxg0UcbZdEU/jWes+3pFB4jQZI29mx6SjmwJNq92Xx0LEMtmAK7UyVwjlvVk91jSBWuPsT6I9kQy5i3pcHLUrtVhu0wY22SIfQts= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 15, 2006 Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:24:23 +0100 Message-ID: <004f01c6d982$ab04c430$6b00a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbZQB+5iv5/qIaNR4yJxyHNH6Hq3gAQY/hg In-Reply-To: <410-22006961632533200@ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70732 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bob Park has strong views on the irrelevancy of manned space exploration. Personally I'd much rather see my tax money spent on this than oil wars or pointless welfare social engineering. I'm not sure gov. bureaucrats really understand that they have the levers on human self-improvement. -----Original Message----- From: Akira Kawasaki [mailto:aki@ix.netcom.com] Sent: 16 September 2006 04:26 To: vortex-l Subject: [Vo]: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 15, 2006 Sept. 15, 2006 > [Original Message] From: What's New To: Date: 9/15/2006 2:23:49 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 15, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 15 Sep 06 Washington, DC 1. PROLIFERATION: IAEA DISPUTES HOUSE COMMITTEE REPORT ON IRAN. Who would have thought that relations between the U.S. and the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency could get worse? The IAEA complains that a House Intelligence Committee staff report, "contains erroneous, misleading and unsubstantiated information" about Iran's nuclear program. Sound familiar? A caption in the House report says Tehran is "enriching uranium to weapons grade," but the facility shown only enriches to 3.6%, enough for power production, but far from the level needed for weapons. Before the U.S. invaded Iraq, the IAEA had insisted, despite American objections, that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, and later showed that some White House claims were based on forged documents. After the fall of the Saddam government, the U.S blocked IAEA inspections of damage to Iraq's nuclear facilities. But in a stunning vindication of the IAEA, Mohammed ElBaradei, director general of IAEA, was awarded the 2005 Nobel Peace Prize http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn100705.html . 2. SPACE: INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION UNFURLS NEW SOLAR PANELS. The world's most expensive scientific laboratory installed additional solar panels yesterday, capable of producing 100 kilowatts or so of additional power for experiments. The panels cost $372 million to build, and about three times that much to send up to the ISS. Stand by for important new results. The only unique feature of a space environment is micro-gravity. One of the things you could study in micro-gravity is cavitation in spherical drops of water. A paper just published in Phys. Rev. Lett. reports important new insights from such studies except the experiments weren't done in space. They were done on a European Space Agency aircraft flying in parabolic arcs. 3. THIRD GREAT AWAKENING: BUSH SEES REVIVAL OF RELIGIOUS DEVOTION. The President told a group of conservative journalists this week that the "confrontation between good and evil" in the struggle with international terrorism has led to a revival of religious devotion. He believes it to be the Third Great Awaking. That may be, we secular types could fail to notice a revival or two, but according to Wikipedia we've already had four Great Awakenings. A survey released yesterday by Baylor University, however, does find Americans to be more active in religion than supposed. Baylor is a strict Baptist college in Waco, Texas. It was a frequent target of the late 19th century journalist William Cowper Brann, who published The Iconoclast. Brann's style was much like that of H.L. Mencken a generation later, and the Iconoclast had world-wide circulation. He printed frequent exposes of prominent Waco and Baylor citizens, and was shot to death on a Waco street. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 06:30:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8GDU2sT022767; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:30:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8GDPc8H020620; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:25:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:25:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=SbjaMwQt37KzGuuG0n1E5oYRc0xC/QITpHKVwEGLnhqc78GbQvwAl1uryikroiETthCVmaOx/7TZldzw4lJs/LHqhI/nDgVEWxBIvh+WB3dO5geKK6YiBMDJOWXtK1c6wUlU2+tDR79lWzmc2pdpcf7MXLXsHmRLOhptinI9LNc= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:25:37 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8GDPbM1020596 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70733 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/14/technology/14google.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&ref=technology&pagewanted=print http://tinyurl.com/m78u4 September 14, 2006 Philanthropy Google's Way: Not the Usual By KATIE HAFNER SAN FRANCISCO, Sept. 13 — The ambitious founders of Google, the popular search engine company, have set up a philanthropy, giving it seed money of about $1 billion and a mandate to tackle poverty, disease and global warming. But unlike most charities, this one will be for-profit, allowing it to fund start-up companies, form partnerships with venture capitalists and even lobby Congress. It will also pay taxes. One of its maiden projects reflects the philanthropy's nontraditional approach. According to people briefed on the program, the organization, called Google.org, plans to develop an ultra-fuel-efficient plug-in hybrid car engine that runs on ethanol, electricity and gasoline. The philanthropy is consulting with hybrid-engine scientists and automakers, and has arranged for the purchase of a small fleet of cars with plans to convert the engines so that their gas mileage exceeds 100 miles per gallon. The goal of the project is to reduce dependence on oil while alleviating the effects of global warming. Google.org is drawing skeptics for both its structure and its ambitions. It is a slingshot compared with the artillery of charities established by older captains of industry. Its financing pales next to the tens of billions that the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation will have at its disposal, especially with the coming infusion of some $3 billion a year from Warren E. Buffett, the founder of Berkshire Hathaway. But Google's philanthropic work is coming early in the company's lifetime. Microsoft was 25 years old before Bill Gates set up his foundation, which is a tax-exempt organization and separate from Microsoft. By choosing for-profit status, Google will have to pay taxes if company shares are sold at a profit — or if corporate earnings are used — to finance Google.org. Any resulting venture that shows a profit will also have to pay taxes. Shareholders may not like the fact that the Google.org tax forms will not be made public, but kept private as part of the tax filings of the parent, Google Inc. Google's founders, Larry Page and Sergey Brin, believe for-profit status will greatly increase their philanthropy's range and flexibility. It could, for example, form a company to sell the converted cars, finance that company in partnership with venture capitalists, and even hire a lobbyist to pressure Congress to pass legislation granting a tax credit to consumers who buy the cars. The executive director whom Mr. Page and Mr. Brin have hired, Dr. Larry Brilliant, is every bit as iconoclastic as Google's philanthropic arm. Dr. Brilliant, a 61-year-old physician and public health expert, has studied under a Hindu guru in a monastery at the foothills of the Himalayas and worked as a Silicon Valley entrepreneur. In one project, which Dr. Brilliant brought with him to the job, Google.org will try to develop a system to detect disease outbreaks early. Dr. Brilliant likens the traditional structure of corporate foundations to a musician confined to playing only the high register on a piano. "Google.org can play on the entire keyboard," Dr. Brilliant said in an interview. "It can start companies, build industries, pay consultants, lobby, give money to individuals and make a profit." While declining to comment on the car project specifically, Dr. Brilliant said he would hope to see such ventures make a profit. "But if they didn't, we wouldn't care," he said. "We're not doing it for the profit. And if we didn't get our capital back, so what? The emphasis is on social returns, not economic returns." Development of ultra-high-mileage cars is under way at a number of companies, from Toyota to tiny start-ups. Making an engine that uses E85 — a mixture of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline — is not difficult, but the lack of availability of the fuel presents a challenge, said Brett Smith, a senior industry analyst at the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich. Another barrier, Mr. Smith said, lies in the batteries for so-called plug-in hybrids, which require more powerful batteries that charge more quickly than the current generation of hybrid batteries. There are skeptics, too, among tax lawyers and other pragmatists familiar with the world of philanthropy. They wonder whether Google's directors might be tempted to take back some of the largess in an economic downturn. "The money is at the beck and call of the board of directors and shareholders," said Marcus S. Owens, a tax lawyer in Washington who spent a decade as director of the exempt organizations division of the Internal Revenue Service. "It's possible the shareholders of Google might someday object, especially if we go into an economic depression and that money is needed to shore up the company." And there is the question of how many of the planet's problems can truly be addressed by a single corporate entity. But even while expressing reservations about Google's approach, Mr. Owens said that the structure of Google.org "eliminates all the constraints that might otherwise apply." The only conventional part of Google.org is the Google Foundation, a nonprofit with an endowment of $90 million that is constrained in how it spends by the 501(c)(3) section of the Internal Revenue Service code. Google's big philanthropic experiment lies in the part of Google.org where the bulk of the funding now resides. This part of Google.org will be fully taxable, with the ability to invest in a full spectrum of programs and companies. All of Google.org's spending, Dr. Brilliant said, will be in keeping with its mission, and there is to be no "blowback." That is, should Google.org make a profit with one of its ventures, those funds will not go to the search engine business, but will stay within Google.org. Google had existed for only six years, when, in advance of the company's initial public offering in August 2004, Mr. Page and Mr. Brin told potential investors that they planned to set aside 1 percent of the company's stock and an equal percentage of profits for philanthropy. By the end of 2004, Google.org was formed. The company has said it plans to spend the money over the next 20 years, and the Google board recently approved a more rapid disbursement rate, $175 million over the next two years. "Poor people can't wait," Dr. Brilliant said. "Dying people can't wait for some 20-year plan. It's not what we're doing here." Ventures that grow out of Google.org could be seen to have a competitive edge because they do not need to show a financial profit. But financial returns from a project like the high-mileage car are not necessarily the aim. "I think how you count profit is the issue here," said Peter Hero, president of the Community Foundation of Silicon Valley, a charitable foundation with about $1 billion in assets. "Google.org is measuring return on cleaner air and quality of life. Their bottom line isn't just financial. It's environmental and social." Once Google.org was formed, the company spent months searching for an executive director. There was no lack of interest in the job. "Literally thousands of people worldwide got in touch with us," said Sheryl Sandberg, the Google vice president who led the search. "We'd get someone who was an amazing technology entrepreneur but who didn't know anything about the developing world." Then along came Dr. Brilliant, an affable man generous with bearhugs and self-deprecating humor whose unlikely résumé looks like a composite career summary of multiple high achievers. After receiving his medical degree, Dr. Brilliant studied for two years with Neem Karoli Baba, a famous Hindu guru. As Dr. Brilliant tells the story, in 1973, shortly before the guru's death, he told Dr. Brilliant to "take off the ashram whites" and use his skills as a physician to help eradicate smallpox, which was devastating India at the time. Dr. Brilliant joined a team of United Nations workers who painstakingly worked their way through India inoculating people against the disease. In 1980, the World Health Organization declared that smallpox had been eradicated. In 1978, Dr. Brilliant started the Seva Foundation, which focuses on preventing and curing blindness throughout Asia and Latin America. In 1985, Dr. Brilliant was a co-founder of the Well, a seminal online community. Throughout the 1990's and early 2000's, he ran several high-tech companies in Silicon Valley. Dr. Brilliant first heard about Google.org in early 2005 while lying in bed in India, sick with dysentery. He had gone there to work with the polio eradication program of the United Nations and, while recovering, he saw news of Google.org in a local newspaper. He sent an inquiry to the only e-mail address he could find: info@google.com. He got no response. This year, Dr. Brilliant was awarded the TED Prize, an award given at the annual Technology, Entertainment and Design conference, a gathering of leaders from the technology and entertainment industries. The prize awards three recipients $100,000, and a "wish" for how to change world. Dr. Brilliant's wish was for the creation of an "early detection, rapid response" system for disease outbreaks. The idea would be an open-source, nongovernmental, public access network for detecting, reporting and responding to pandemics. Some Google insiders heard about the award and invited Dr. Brilliant to give a talk at the company. Mr. Page and Eric E. Schmidt, Google's chief executive, were in the audience as Dr. Brilliant described the polio eradication efforts of the United Nations. They agreed they had found their director and began to recruit him. At first, Dr. Brilliant said, he was thrilled. But then he turned skeptical, largely because of the for-profit structure of the organization. "I got weak knees," he said. "It was weird. It was precedent setting." After several lengthy conversations with executives at Google, Dr. Brilliant changed his mind. Six months into the job, he has traveled to India to visit eye clinics and polio vaccination projects with Mr. Page, and to China to discuss clean energy alternatives. Next week, he leaves for Africa to visit Google grant recipients in Ghana. Dr. Brilliant said he had no desire to "reinvent the wheel" by working on projects others are already involved in. And although Google is a high-tech company, that does not mean that Google.org will be throwing around high-tech solutions. "Why would we put Wi-Fi in a place where what they need is food and clean water?" he said. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 06:36:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8GDa9ii027333; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:36:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8GDa7gG027316; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:36:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:36:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net><010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583><450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:35:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70734 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: John Berry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:30 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor >No Kyle, your mistaken. You doubt KE = 1/2mv^2? To postulate a scenario where a supposed reactionless engine consumes power at a rate based on an "absolute" velocity and therefore obeys energy conservation I think is less mistaken than to simply assume that conservation of energy is wrong. I am sorry, but your math for 0.5kW input for 10 seconds, giving 1m/s, and then 0.5kW for 20 seconds giving 2m/s is just incorrect; if you have a situation like that, your numbers will not add up at all, and you will get a "free lunch" of kinetic energy. If this were true, we could build a perpetual motion machine with a linear accelerator, based on needing 500J to get a charge to say 0.25c, and a kinetic energy upon hitting a target of X Joules, and then decide to use 1000J to get X^2 Joules upon hitting the target. This is nonsensical. And one of the major reasons why understanding the performance of a hypothesized reactionless engine is difficult at first. Its one of the reasons pushing the decimals a bit higher and higher in particle accelerators is such a pain: at very high speeds you have to keep dumping massive amount of energy in to get a minute increase in speed. And on top of that, the relativistic problems start to bite you, and now we're really in it. Are you by chance equating: A. converting 0.5kW for 10 seconds to thrust, and then for an additional 10 seconds, as being the same as, B. blasting a rocket for 10 seconds, and then for 10 more seconds? >There is no way it can work with a stationary reference frame as you say. I am not referring to the loss of Q effect which takes place in the (supposed) EMdrive. I am referring to reactionless engines in general. There is no reason they are precluded by a preferred frame of reference, should one exist. >The idea behind it being unable to accelerate and I believe it is just a >theory is that ACCELERATION will cause a Doppler like effect and it will no >longer be in >resonance hence lower Q and lower EM bouncing in the box and >hence lower force. Again, I am not talking about the EMdrive thing, particularly since very little hard data is known beyond the hearsay of the media, and we know how reliable a source they are. (Shawyer used a 700W magnetron or an 850W one, depending on who is reporting) >You are right that without a stationary reference frame with which to >measure energy against there is no way it can keep to the conservation of >energy and >regardless of whether or not this device works I'm sure such >devices do exist which means conservation of energy really is just a >general observation and not true >in all cases. Well, personally I think they (reactionless propulsion systems) probably are possible as well, but I will predict that they will be found to obey energy conservation. It would be really nice if they *didn't*, but I think we are stuck with C-of-E. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 06:36:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8GDaZpD027780; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:36:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8GDaX9g027758; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:36:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:36:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Sr5H3wM2cHin+xBdOrlx5txKNfTYs4EO/atGx4QUQPqI73JqX1o99TxABXJZnDFV4QGDrKRClL6sRUuWGwWnOonMbgBVIqktGhZGDVT84t1EvFdLi/ZPhLcIFOurkwK6hVi2q+ULrTrOLyjSoDbPeSfxym9gm6aMxaNEGPc/Bso= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:36:33 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70735 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The title of the post was "Autopia: Sergey and Larry's 100 mpg PHEV". Was it the colon? On 9/16/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/14/technology/14google.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&ref=technology&pagewanted=print > > http://tinyurl.com/m78u4 > > September 14, 2006 > Philanthropy Google's Way: Not the Usual From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 06:37:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8GDbgUM028816; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:37:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8GDbeWj028790; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:37:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:37:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=JSO/aNwrx76WqQHJWONkYBd5QZI80KYyoprvJt4YusNA45hXU4FM6b+C/BOTThcVZmdSJ3z1O5314SEWIllWg1o076I35sGGZ0qMnHWU2yMRljvaZJ8P1mb24n/aJjUMsm4p94UMTBuDUB7OGGcbkQirmh63b57ogvC9mEgrkmk= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:37:39 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8GDbdYw028748 Resent-Message-ID: <1ZnMGB.A.kBH.k4_CFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70736 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fire from Ice Status: RO X-Status: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/13sep_electricice.htm?list920094 Electric Ice 09.13.2006 Sept. 13, 2006: Here's something fun to try in your kitchen: Go to the freezer, open the door and pry loose an ice cube. Next, look around the freezing compartment for some frost—the crystalline fuzz that loves to coat your frozen English peas. Found it? Rub the ice cube gently across the frost. Nothing happens. Well, what did you expect, a bolt of lightning? Actually, that's just how lightning gets started. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 06:56:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8GDuI48007189; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:56:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8GDuHZV007172; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:56:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:56:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=tRLLzqnkCU8HQmS8zxz7ap1NUtmhhR+6V/jD2d6lKY5V7PiEhIWiNxutKrbQ/a0E8PvGZiIbGHE7Mu19igzOdhD29scEf60YNjf1D9KvtZiyRCaM1bCu68fnchaNoPNsTq64WNKVbqd+lRdIIiF1ynGduTXecgi/2pJstnOnX50= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:56:15 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70737 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Another ZPE Company Status: O X-Status: Have these folks beat Goldes to the punch? http://www.akoil.ru/en/?PHPSESSID=73ea87b97edea4362eb8a48538ec1b70 "02.09.2006. For the first time in the world on 2d of September, 2006 the first electromagnetic transformers of electric energy were produced and tested. These transformers make electric energy of different frequency and voltage without any fuel consumption. This year we are going to produce power stations with the power from 5o kW to 10 MW. In 2007 we'll produce power stations from 1 kW to 100 GW. Power stations production will be started in different Russian cities, in different EU countries and in other countries all over the world. The technologies are patented." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 07:47:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8GEksRi005773; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 07:46:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8GEkpq4005752; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 07:46:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 07:46:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=dNhTOcScWAf7etAzDL1zsewOIMagKHX0duORb7HX2huMnX5W1VouHPJQfLH2H3PvYUBKyxf2i9wOc3mhNEfmBHRin60DYs9c6EFb8CP/1NUFYPaVZvPvS8UlYYTCvid7I8XzvrHg5zT57PoaDS5Pq+RTLgPIMA1clcMekXgcx/0= ; Message-ID: <000d01c6d99e$ef844100$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 07:46:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <6IXZJ.A.rZB.b5ADFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70738 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Fire from Ice Status: RO X-Status: Ah! Thanks for digging that one up, Terry. Several years ago, I did a minimal experiment of injecting a few cc's of very cold water ~2 degree C. from a glue-syringe, taken from the freezer - into an evacuated plexiglass tube (partial vacuum using hand pump, nothing fancy). Small explosion, instant ice crystals and guess what ? small burst of x-rays! A least my radiation monitor registered a blip every time. Could not imagine where to go from there - without a major investment, but was thinking at the time that injecting cold water into a modified diesel engine might be somehow feasible if you modify the combustion chamber so that there was no space at TDC (so that a good vacuum was being drawn) and inject at about 90 degrees in order to get a boost for only the last 90 degrees. It would be pretty anemic, admittedly, due to the parasitic drain of drawing a vaccum and the minimal explosion - but who knows? a huge engine of thousands of cubic-inch displacement could be made of molded plastic since it operates at near freezing temps and low stress ! and it doesn't take much energy to chill water... ...especially in Alaska. I mentioned this to Horace, along with the Russian research (which had spawned the crazy idea to begin with) but he was not impressed... at the time (before the recent run-up in gas prices). Jones PS every time I hear the title of Mallove's book, "Fire from Ice" - can't help getting a sardonic chuckle from the cartoon kids (Simpsons ?) daily lament of having a working mother ... i.e. the TV dinners lovingly prepared by "microwave mom" ... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 08:45:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8GFjJhX002495; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 08:45:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8GFjH4m002466; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 08:45:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 08:45:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=2BsG3HD+pwnzRyKGsFSyRqpEXat5gc9nbKssgcCcAUBTiF2ST+me0Sz1ckLKr42AtJwGN2qR4K9Jd22El7BuOLlLDYb1Z3kLa2+lkf13xbrSDKhmaUSiVHgNfoZwfGO2hfEXgOJSAQNKnL8tMZAe8tnE5UIH9hcSLHbehQ53Lss= ; Message-ID: <003901c6d9a7$19d54190$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 08:45:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70739 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Fire from Ice Status: O X-Status: Terry, > Re: Electric Ice http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/13sep_electricice.htm?list920094 .. your mention of frozen English peas has jogged the memory. Here is an excerpt from the article. [BTW don't the Brits call them French Peas?] "In a thundercloud ... tiny ice crystals become positively charged and waft to the top of the cloud, while bulkier ice pellets (called "graupel") become negatively charged and plummet to the bottom. This separation creates mega-volts of electrical tension- and hence the lightning." OK. At the time of previously mentioned experiment, I was just getting aquainted with Frank Grimer and his aether hierarchy concept. We were both thinking that there could be energy anomalies resulting from rapid water phase changes, where at a few degrees C, water density increases rather significantly - but at the actual phase-change - density then swings the other way, and decreases. Side Note: If ice did not float, this would be a very different planet. There is a rather significant swing of pvt parameters, at the acutal phase change, and despite the low overall temperature, the process could be net energtic. Anyway, the idea is that the double-density swing, if it happens fast enough, would cohere beta-aether energy somehow. Apparently from the article, it frees up electrons, and the tinier crystals become positively charged. When this happens very quickly, following injection of near-freezing water into a vacuum - for instance - at what must be nozzle-speed approaching supersonic, then the effect is heightened. Once the ice and free electrons leave the syringe nozzle, and expand - the electrostatic forces will builf up rapidly and accelerate the electons back to the positively charged ice - and that gradient is apparently enough to create x-rays. My rad-meter is much more sensitive than the normal CD variety, but the threshold is still close to 10,000 eV so a burst of x-rays at that intensity signifies significant energy. Of course, it also takes significant mechanical energy to inject the cold water. I suspect that Frank may be of the opinion that if there just happened to be an excess energy anomaly in the overall process - that it would be due to this beta-aether modality operating to create large electrostatic gradient between free electrons and positively charged nano ice crystal ... ? ... you might even call it "lightning in a bottle" if you were a Blues fan. Jones Hey ... it doesn't necessarily take a Lightnin' Hopkins, even with a mojo-hand to put the dots together and to realize that lightning may be mother nature's original form of "free energy"... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 10:40:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8GHdkCj029833; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 10:39:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8GHdhf3029797; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 10:39:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 10:39:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZysqpFjJhkT7CkRaBsbmRitnlU2hGcmYVQlNkRSrZPDgwlg/d7T0gmMU8UTiTV/IiiFc21edG2qQic3oDzc4Ad/5guOBTCRBg+pTOVXMv4Xd+Expmoyrw2ELd2EJFwEs7+sCX57lpGVh6yuDwIM60pdqyOKrlq/CycO6e9vZPSA= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 13:39:42 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fire from Ice In-Reply-To: <003901c6d9a7$19d54190$6401a8c0@NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <003901c6d9a7$19d54190$6401a8c0@NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: <3SutJC.A.fRH.ebDDFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70740 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9/16/06, Jones Beene wrote: > My rad-meter is much more sensitive than the normal CD variety, > but the threshold is still close to 10,000 eV so a burst of x-rays > at that intensity signifies significant energy. Of course, it also > takes significant mechanical energy to inject the cold water. Can you try to calculate the balance? A friend and coworker who is leaving our firm as a ME has promised to give me an intuitive understanding of torque before he leaves after I let him see the Laithwaite DVD that Grimer sent me. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 12:16:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8GJGPAR018203; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:16:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8GJGOSw018181; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:16:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:16:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=3u6S6NAGhPWy/zc9fk2ve1bBriQctQQhsKexpuwaFTcWibiN6OZTkY6WhVeMFe/gkaopwu6j7pbZ4UWf7bOj4SXw/ZyT3bHIklxhSPeTwGmls+yHYz1yqpGPrFlWwjgPQzxEesf44lKsSVDNt7HeeTIYYb+kRgmQzItwrHT4cUY= ; Message-ID: <005101c6d9c4$98405c50$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003901c6d9a7$19d54190$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:16:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70741 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Fire from Ice Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > Can you try to calculate the balance? My guess is that it is significantly below breakeven. However... and you heard it first on Vortex... ...that may not be the case if one were to use a mix - say a 50-50 mix of H20 and HOOH, at perhaps even lower temps. ... and perhaps, then fed some of the energy generated back in the form of an arc discharge (to insure that the HOOH was fully utilized.) In that situation, if one could use the some of the torque of the motor, in a separate system, to compress and separate the O2 out of air, and then use that to make HOOH in situ ...??? ...'fonly' ... [as they say in Scrabble tournaments (those old ladies are fierce competitors, and swear like sailors when they lose to a newcomer, so 'fonly' is relatively pleasant)... I always have to check to make sure that there are no knitting needles handy....] ...'fonly, that is, we had the resources to find out for sure, then I could give up Scrabble in favor of the relative safety of a lab full of peroxide fumes. However, it is quite possible that the addition of peroxide would alter that favorable double density shift, of H2O at phase change. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 15:10:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8GMAeHP011883; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 15:10:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8GMAcVa011863; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 15:10:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 15:10:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=bgG4LKEge5OE43oQWwoosbDDkC0+bWggOdmzr8NbRTGMdjFiWZVNXd3Vr9fGGFW31XiV0Z+lzgINLEX+NkCDfeVeIG0WmTqeC7LUcBKRc7DNr9FHgX8Wg8KkHE4C6MSnzSjLwDFhIj8OVycIZFgZwbJknpOxVm1SY1c/YkV4C+E= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 10:10:37 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor In-Reply-To: <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_53870_20198693.1158444637939" References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: <_O6IlD.A.O5C.eZHDFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70742 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_53870_20198693.1158444637939 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > >No Kyle, your mistaken. > > You doubt KE = 1/2mv^2? Not in anything other than reactionless propulsion. To postulate a scenario where a supposed > reactionless engine consumes power at a rate based on an "absolute" > velocity > and therefore obeys energy conservation I think is less mistaken than to > simply assume that conservation of energy is wrong. But you must assume that the reactionless engine starts at the universal (at least universal for this engine) rest velocity and no matter where else it goes in the universe no matter what the local stationary reference frame is it must still have performance based on where it was first launched! Or if where it was first launched was not stationary relative to the universal rest velocity but moving then you may find that it's performance begins poorly but if you move if you accelerate in the right direction every second it thrusts and accelerates faster and faster because the propulsion is more effective the closer the ship is to this universal reference frame. I am sorry, but your math for 0.5kW input for 10 seconds, giving 1m/s, and > then 0.5kW for 20 seconds giving 2m/s is just incorrect; Your idea of it having a 'road' or universal stationary reference frame on which performance is based is positively kookie. Plus you do not state by which mechanism the thrust would be effected, where my Doppler effect pushing it out of resonance lowering the Q is pretty much what was stated in the article, There was no indication they used it as a way to save the conservation of energy and if they did then we can discount it as bunk anyway because that would mean they have no theoretical basis for believing in the effect. But if you accept that Morton and ATGroup and especially Podkletnov with their similar gravity beam rigs is for real then how would the conservation of energy be saved in this case? Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter it went through, and there was no counter reaction on anything. Face it, if reactionles propulsion if real then the only way the conservation of energy could MAYBE be saved is is we just assume there is a loss (or gain) in ZPE somewhere in the universe of equal magnitude with the gain or loss in kinetic energy, even though figuring out how this could possibly occur and know it it should even be a loss is crazy but if you have to believe in the conservation of energy (why?) then that's your best bet. if you have a > situation like that, your numbers will not add up at all, and you will get > a > "free lunch" of kinetic energy. If this were true, we could build a > perpetual motion machine with a linear accelerator Sure, a reactionless one, not a normal one though. , based on needing 500J to > get a charge to say 0.25c, and a kinetic energy upon hitting a target of X > Joules, and then decide to use 1000J to get X^2 Joules upon hitting the > target. This is nonsensical. No it's not, it could be used as an example as to why there is no such a thing as a reactionless engine though, but for me I'm happy with both laws being general observations and not absolutes. And one of the major reasons why understanding > the performance of a hypothesized reactionless engine is difficult at > first. > > Its one of the reasons pushing the decimals a bit higher and higher in > particle accelerators is such a pain Particle accelerators aren't reactionless. And moreover to even keep the particle moving at a constant velocity they must pump in lots and lots of energy. : at very high speeds you have to keep > dumping massive amount of energy in to get a minute increase in speed. And > on top of that, the relativistic problems start to bite you, and now we're > really in it. Do you not see the difference between a reactionless engine and a linear motor or particle accelerator which is tied to a reference frame by way of stators used to accelerate it?????? Of course the conservation of energy works in these situations generally, if you do the math you will see that if you double the velocity with a linear motor you need 4 times the energy naturally. But a reactionless drive is not tied to a reference frame. Now try this on for size, fact: If you disregard relativity the energy needed from a photon rocket to to get to 1 meter a second is half that needed to get to 2 meters a second and 1/10th that needed to get to 10 meters a second because it is reactionless. (or kinda) Now it's ok because the energy in the photons relative to your starting and final reference frames is less the faster you go, the one during the first second have a higher frequency than the ones emitted during the last second. (same freq. at the time of course but lower at the end of the 10 second run) The point is that a flashlight will yield constant acceleration at a given power input. Are you by chance equating: > A. converting 0.5kW for 10 seconds to thrust, and then for an additional > 10 > seconds, as being the same as, > B. blasting a rocket for 10 seconds, and then for 10 more seconds? Very much so yes except I have explained why with rockets it isn't really the same as the energy in the exhaust is lowered. >There is no way it can work with a stationary reference frame as you say. > > I am not referring to the loss of Q effect which takes place in the > (supposed) EMdrive. I am referring to reactionless engines in general. > There > is no reason they are precluded by a preferred frame of reference, should > one exist. The only frame of reference there is, is one that any decent sized ship drags along, yes that's my own theory not conventional although plenty of relativists are slowly coming to such a conclusion. (it allows FTL travel) Your stationary reference frame makes no freaking sense but if you choose to believe in it that's your choice. >The idea behind it being unable to accelerate and I believe it is just a > >theory is that ACCELERATION will cause a Doppler like effect and it will > no > >longer be in >resonance hence lower Q and lower EM bouncing in the box > and > >hence lower force. > > Again, I am not talking about the EMdrive thing, particularly since very > little hard data is known beyond the hearsay of the media, and we know how > reliable a source they are. (Shawyer used a 700W magnetron or an 850W one, > depending on who is reporting) > > >You are right that without a stationary reference frame with which to > >measure energy against there is no way it can keep to the conservation of > >energy and >regardless of whether or not this device works I'm sure such > >devices do exist which means conservation of energy really is just a > >general observation and not true >in all cases. > > Well, personally I think they (reactionless propulsion systems) probably > are > possible as well, but I will predict that they will be found to obey > energy > conservation. It would be really nice if they *didn't*, but I think we are > stuck with C-of-E. You think that why? Sure conservation of energy makes sense as a general observation but that's all it is, obviously most energy transformations won't lead to anything that breaks the conservation of energy, but that doesn't mean there aren't situations where energy creation/destruction does occur. There are plenty of situations where conservation of energy is not observed (both experiments and logic/math) leading to the question, why do you believe that energy can't be created? In most cases though I believe that the conservation of energy and equal and opposite and other laws, rules or constants are broken when the aether (space time) is effected in certain ways, when you do the right things to the medium in which all matter and energy floats the rules change. ------=_Part_53870_20198693.1158444637939 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
>No Kyle, your mistaken.

You doubt KE = 1/2mv^2?

Not in anything other than reactionless propulsion.

To postulate a scenario where a supposed
reactionless engine consumes power at a rate based on an "absolute" velocity
and therefore obeys energy conservation I think is less mistaken than to
simply assume that conservation of energy is wrong.

But you must assume that the reactionless engine starts at the universal (at least universal for this engine) rest velocity and no matter where else it goes in the universe no matter what the local stationary reference frame is it must still have performance based on where it was first launched!

Or if where it was first launched was not stationary relative to the universal rest velocity but moving then you may find that it's performance begins poorly but if you move if you accelerate in the right direction every second it thrusts and accelerates faster and faster because the propulsion is more effective the closer the ship is to this universal reference frame.


I am sorry, but your math for 0.5kW input for 10 seconds, giving 1m/s, and
then 0.5kW for 20 seconds giving 2m/s is just incorrect;

Your idea of it having a 'road' or universal stationary reference frame on which performance is based is positively kookie.

Plus you do not state by which mechanism the thrust would be effected, where my Doppler effect pushing it out of resonance lowering the Q is pretty much what was stated in the article, There was no indication they used it as a way to save the conservation of energy and if they did then we can discount it as bunk anyway because that would mean they have no theoretical basis for believing in the effect.

But if you accept that Morton and ATGroup and especially Podkletnov with their similar gravity beam rigs is for real then how would the conservation of energy be saved in this case?

Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter it went through, and there was no counter reaction on anything.

Face it, if reactionles propulsion if real then the only way the conservation of energy could MAYBE be saved is is we just assume there is a loss (or gain) in ZPE somewhere in the universe of equal magnitude with the gain or loss in kinetic energy, even though figuring out how this could possibly occur and know it it should even be a loss is crazy but if you have to believe in the conservation of energy (why?) then that's your best bet.

if you have a
situation like that, your numbers will not add up at all, and you will get a
"free lunch" of kinetic energy. If this were true, we could build a
perpetual motion machine with a linear accelerator

Sure, a reactionless one, not a normal one though.

, based on needing 500J to
get a charge to say 0.25c, and a kinetic energy upon hitting a target of X
Joules, and then decide to use 1000J to get X^2 Joules upon hitting the
target. This is nonsensical.

No it's not, it could be used as an example as to why there is no such a thing as a reactionless engine though, but for me I'm happy with both laws being general observations and not absolutes.

And one of the major reasons why understanding
the performance of a hypothesized reactionless engine is difficult at first.

Its one of the reasons pushing the decimals a bit higher and higher in
particle accelerators is such a pain

Particle accelerators aren't reactionless.
And moreover to even keep the particle moving at a constant velocity they must pump in lots and lots of energy.

: at very high speeds you have to keep
dumping massive amount of energy in to get a minute increase in speed. And
on top of that, the relativistic problems start to bite you, and now we're
really in it.

Do you not see the difference between a reactionless engine and a linear motor or particle accelerator which is tied to a reference frame by way of stators used to accelerate it??????

Of course the conservation of energy works in these situations generally, if you do the math you will see that if you double the velocity with a linear motor you need 4 times the energy naturally.

But a reactionless drive is not tied to a reference frame.

Now try this on for size, fact: If you disregard relativity the energy needed from a photon rocket to to get to 1 meter a second is half that needed to get to 2 meters a second and 1/10th that needed to get to 10 meters a second because it is reactionless. (or kinda)

Now it's ok because the energy in the photons relative to your starting and final reference frames is less the faster you go, the one during the first second have a higher frequency than the ones emitted during the last second. (same freq. at the time of course but lower at the end of the 10 second run)

The point is that a flashlight will yield constant acceleration at a given power input.

Are you by chance equating:
A. converting 0.5kW for 10 seconds to thrust, and then for an additional 10
seconds, as being the same as,
B. blasting a rocket for 10 seconds, and then for 10 more seconds?

Very much so yes except I have explained why with rockets it isn't really the same as the energy in the exhaust is lowered.

>There is no way it can work with a stationary reference frame as you say.

I am not referring to the loss of Q effect which takes place in the
(supposed) EMdrive. I am referring to reactionless engines in general. There
is no reason they are precluded by a preferred frame of reference, should
one exist.

The only frame of reference there is, is one that any decent sized ship drags along, yes that's my own theory not conventional although plenty of relativists are slowly coming to such a conclusion. (it allows FTL travel)

Your stationary reference frame makes no freaking sense but if you choose to believe in it that's your choice.

>The idea behind it being unable to accelerate and I believe it is just a
>theory is that ACCELERATION will cause a Doppler like effect and it will no
>longer be in >resonance hence lower Q and lower EM bouncing in the box and
>hence lower force.

Again, I am not talking about the EMdrive thing, particularly since very
little hard data is known beyond the hearsay of the media, and we know how
reliable a source they are. (Shawyer used a 700W magnetron or an 850W one,
depending on who is reporting)

>You are right that without a stationary reference frame with which to
>measure energy against there is no way it can keep to the conservation of
>energy and >regardless of whether or not this device works I'm sure such
>devices do exist which means conservation of energy really is just a
>general observation and not true >in all cases.

Well, personally I think they (reactionless propulsion systems) probably are
possible as well, but I will predict that they will be found to obey energy
conservation. It would be really nice if they *didn't*, but I think we are
stuck with C-of-E.

You think that why?
Sure conservation of energy makes sense as a general observation but that's all it is, obviously most energy transformations won't lead to anything that breaks the conservation of energy, but that doesn't mean there aren't situations where energy creation/destruction does occur.

There are plenty of situations where conservation of energy is not observed (both experiments and logic/math) leading to the question, why do you believe that energy can't be created?

In most cases though I believe that the conservation of energy and equal and opposite and other laws, rules or constants are broken when the aether (space time) is effected in certain ways, when you do the right things to the medium in which all matter and energy floats the rules change.


------=_Part_53870_20198693.1158444637939-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 16:50:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8GNnuR1020661; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:50:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8GNnsLh020650; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:49:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:49:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,175,1157342400"; d="scan'208"; a="823358323:sNHT23650230" Message-ID: <923837273.1158450592760.JavaMail.root@fepweb09> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:49:52 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Another ZPE Company MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70743 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Terry Blanton wrote: > Have these folks beat Goldes to the punch? > > http://www.akoil.ru/en/?PHPSESSID=73ea87b97edea4362eb8a48538ec1b70 > > "02.09.2006. For the first time in the world on 2d of September, 2006 > the first electromagnetic transformers of electric energy were > produced and tested. These transformers make electric energy of > different frequency and voltage without any fuel consumption. > > This year we are going to produce power stations with the power from > 5o kW to 10 MW. In 2007 we'll produce power stations from 1 kW to 100 > GW. > > Power stations production will be started in different Russian cities, > in different EU countries and in other countries all over the world. > The technologies are patented." Certainly bold statements. I suspect few on this list are willing to take these claims seriously, not without additional collaborative evidence. Has anyone heard of "AKOIL-ENERGY" before? A side comment here: I find it fascinating that in the year of 2006, just a little over a century after the Wright Brothers flew into the historical books at Kitty Hawk, a number of companies appear to be on the verge of making what I would describe as an equally ground breaking announcement pertaining to highly controversial Over Unity energy devices. Or at least, that's what it would seem to me. Jed, I appeal to your historical perspective on this subject. Has anything like this happened in the past, where there appears to be a sudden increase in news or announcements coming from companies or individuals that claim they are on the verge of unveiling something momentous, something that would ultimately be considered highly disruptive in the technological sense, as these alleged devices would certainly be? Technological disruptions certainly do happen in our world. Perhaps these cyclical patterns can also be detected by a few, before the general public eventually catches wind. The mystery for me is how does one go about distinguishing whether these recent news announcements (concerning Over Unity) should be taken seriously, or do most of them bare the markings of a snake-oil salesman's pitch, and as such they should be thrown into the quackery bin. The only thing I can fall back on were the early reports of self-powered flying machines, when the Wright Brothers were first trying to get their contraption off the ground. As I seem to recall, a good number of initial news reports were extremely skeptical. Most news agencies did not take such claims seriously, including apparently the Scientific American publication. I would be curious to know what Mark Goldes might have to say about these recent developments. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/OrionWorks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 17:22:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8H0Ln4d004306; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 17:21:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8H0LjDQ004266; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 17:21:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 17:21:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000701c6d9ef$368254c0$9987163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net><010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583><450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91><000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 20:21:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70744 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: John Berry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor > Not in anything other than reactionless propulsion. But why make it a special case? > But you must assume that the reactionless engine starts at the universal > (at least universal for this engine) rest velocity and no matter where > else it goes in the > universe no matter what the local stationary reference frame is it must > still have performance based on where it was first launched! Not at all, it can be imagined to start in any frame of reference chosen, however, its efficiency will be based on its velocity relative to the preferred frame. This is what I was hinting at in the first message, that finding a reactionless propulsion system that (I think must) obeys conservation of energy will raise some eyebrows depending on which direction you decide to point it and go. > Or if where it was first launched was not stationary relative to the > universal rest velocity but moving then you may find that it's performance > begins poorly but if > you move if you accelerate in the right direction every second it thrusts > and accelerates faster and faster because the propulsion is more effective > the closer the > ship is to this universal reference frame. Indeed, it would seem that the hypothesized preferred frame would act as the "road". Or the "air". There is another word that could be used, it starts with an "e" (or "ae") but I will remain a gentleman. :) > Your idea of it having a 'road' or universal stationary reference frame on > which performance is based is positively kookie. Throwing out conservation of energy, which is even more fundamental than a violation of the 2nd Postulate is probably less favorable. Kookie is probably the right word to use, however, when speaking of reactionless engines. They probably are. > Plus you do not state by which mechanism the thrust would be effected, > where my Doppler effect pushing it out of resonance lowering the Q is > pretty much what > was stated in the article, There was no indication they > used it as a way to save the conservation of energy and if they did then > we can discount it as bunk anyway > because that would mean they have no > theoretical basis for believing in the effect. Well, we cannot draw much about the supposed performance of the EMdrive in any case, given a decided lack of hard data. "Show me the thruster!" (sorry, I could not resist.) Indeed there could be more effects limiting performance, but there will almost certainly be something there that preserves conservation of energy. The mechanism is as I said, a hypothesized preferred frame. > But if you accept that Morton and ATGroup and especially Podkletnov with > their similar gravity beam rigs is for real then how would the > conservation of energy > be saved in this case? I know little of ATG, other than they made an (inefficient) coil-gun. Did they do something else? I will make no comment on Podkletnov, out of respect for those who did work on that effect well within the grasp of the everyday-man, and yet are unheard of now. As to Morton, do you refer to the Van de Graff generator effect? I do not know enough details of these three you have listed to speak as to their conservation of energy, nevertheless, they probably do conserve. (Please note use of probably, in place of the usual must) > Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter it went > through, and there was no counter reaction on anything. Where can I find detailed plans so that I can build it in my laboratory? > Face it, if reactionles propulsion if real then the only way the > conservation of energy could MAYBE be saved is is we just assume there is > a loss (or gain) in ZPE > somewhere in the universe of equal magnitude > with the gain or loss in kinetic energy, even though figuring out how this > could possibly occur and know it it should > even be a loss is crazy but > if you have to believe in the conservation of energy (why?) then that's > your best bet. There is no need to invoke "ZPE" for which the evidence is sadly lacking in it having anything to do with much of...well, anything. ZPE has become the magickal elixir of everything it seems. I don't mean to sound harsh, but really it is getting a bit crazy. Mark Twain must be laughing at us all, as far as ZPE is concerned, thinking back on his statements regarding such wholesale returns from such trivial investment of fact. > Sure, a reactionless one, not a normal one though. I imagine some people probably thought the same thing when radioactivity was first being understood. It must have seemed to violate a great many things. But it really didn't. > No it's not, it could be used as an example as to why there is no such a > thing as a reactionless engine though, but for me I'm happy with both laws > being general > observations and not absolutes. Well, I do leave open the possibility that you are right, that the "hard" laws are approximations. I don't know what we will find in the future. I am simply saying that, as far as I can see and speculate, conservation of energy will be maintained. > Particle accelerators aren't reactionless. Neither are reactionless engines, if they are pushing against a preferred frame. Which is what I've been discussing as a possibility. In that case, you just don't see the stationary machinery. But performance is sure affected by velocity relative to it. > Do you not see the difference between a reactionless engine and a linear > motor or particle accelerator which is tied to a reference frame by way of > stators used to > accelerate it?????? Do you not see the similarities? You typed it yourself, "tied to a reference frame by way of..." and that "way of" is most likely whatever is giving you the "reactionless" effect. > Of course the conservation of energy works in these situations generally, > if you do the math you will see that if you double the velocity with a > linear motor you > need 4 times the energy naturally. Exactly. > But a reactionless drive is not tied to a reference frame. How do you know this for certain? > Now try this on for size, fact: If you disregard relativity the energy > needed from a photon rocket to to get to 1 meter a second is half that > needed to get to 2 > meters a second and 1/10th that needed to get to 10 meters a second > because it is reactionless. (or kinda) No it is not reactionless, photons* have momentum. But 300MW/Newton does, as they say, sorta suck. > The point is that a flashlight will yield constant acceleration at a given > power input. The point is that no matter how you work it out, a photon rocket (or a neutrino rocket, or any of the conjectured "dark energy" rockets) will not violate C-of-E. As far as we know, at least; to my knowledge they have not been tested, owing to the dreadful inefficiency. >> Are you by chance equating: >> A. converting 0.5kW for 10 seconds to thrust, and then for an additional >> 10 >> seconds, as being the same as, >> B. blasting a rocket for 10 seconds, and then for 10 more seconds? > Very much so yes except I have explained why with rockets it isn't really > the same as the energy in the exhaust is lowered. I suppose that we must disagree then on what we expect of a reactionless engine. By the way, please don't take any of this personally, I'm actually having a damn good time being able to discuss something other than politics on here, this is a really nice change! > Your stationary reference frame makes no freaking sense but if you choose > to believe in it that's your choice. A lot of things don't make sense at first glance, but they do later. > You think that why? > Sure conservation of energy makes sense as a general observation but > that's all it is, obviously most energy transformations won't lead to > anything that breaks the > conservation of energy, but that doesn't mean > there aren't situations where energy creation/destruction does occur. True, it doesn't mean it is impossible. But as far as we know it *is* impossible. Just because someone hands us (they haven't yet, at least clearly) a reactionless motor, does not mean that we must discard C-of-E. I think the rule of science fiction authors is a good one to go by here: don't ask the reader to believe more than 1 impossible thing at a time. > There are plenty of situations where conservation of energy is not > observed (both experiments and logic/math) leading to the question, why do > you believe that > energy can't be created? Can you please elaborate? I am curious now. > In most cases though I believe that the conservation of energy and equal > and opposite and other laws, rules or constants are broken when the aether > (space time) > is effected in certain ways, when you do the right things > to the medium in which all matter and energy floats the rules change. You believe in the existence of the "ether"? Why then the opposition to a preferred frame of reference? (Which is precisely what the "ether" is) --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 17:58:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8H0wMaX022064; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 17:58:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8H0wKgL022046; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 17:58:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 17:58:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.35] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com In-Reply-To: <923837273.1158450592760.JavaMail.root@fepweb09> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Another ZPE Company Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 17:58:17 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Sep 2006 00:58:18.0725 (UTC) FILETIME=[5D4D9150:01C6D9F4] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70745 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Russian work first surfaced in the now defunct, very uneven, journal published by Frolov in St. Petersburg. There was a picture of a "transformator" in an issue back at least two years. Perhaps two or three issues before the publication ran out of money and closed down. Frolov now sells a CD with all the back issues. Although they claim the device is patented, we have not yet been able to locate a patent. However, one or more may surface, or have been published under the name of an inventor we do not know about. We have reason to believe some utility type transformers can be modified to become generators that convert ZPE, or what we now prefer to call Virtual Photon Flux where magnetic systems are involved. This and other possibilities suggest they may prove to have something real. There is a Syrian on their Board, suggesting that Syria has been a source of capital. Since that Arab nation is not rich in oil, it may be that Syrian money is backing this development. It seems to me the truth of the matter will emerge soon enough. I would not be totally surprised if it turns out they have technology that can do what they claim. However, as with everything that emerges from Russia these days, a large container of Sodium Chloride should be kept handy. Mark >From: OrionWorks >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Another ZPE Company >Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:49:52 -0700 > >---- Terry Blanton wrote: > > Have these folks beat Goldes to the punch? > > > > http://www.akoil.ru/en/?PHPSESSID=73ea87b97edea4362eb8a48538ec1b70 > > > > "02.09.2006. For the first time in the world on 2d of September, 2006 > > the first electromagnetic transformers of electric energy were > > produced and tested. These transformers make electric energy of > > different frequency and voltage without any fuel consumption. > > > > This year we are going to produce power stations with the power from > > 5o kW to 10 MW. In 2007 we'll produce power stations from 1 kW to 100 > > GW. > > > > Power stations production will be started in different Russian cities, > > in different EU countries and in other countries all over the world. > > The technologies are patented." > >Certainly bold statements. I suspect few on this list are willing to take >these claims seriously, not without additional collaborative evidence. > >Has anyone heard of "AKOIL-ENERGY" before? > >A side comment here: I find it fascinating that in the year of 2006, just a >little over a century after the Wright Brothers flew into the historical >books at Kitty Hawk, a number of companies appear to be on the verge of >making what I would describe as an equally ground breaking announcement >pertaining to highly controversial Over Unity energy devices. Or at least, >that's what it would seem to me. > >Jed, I appeal to your historical perspective on this subject. Has anything >like this happened in the past, where there appears to be a sudden increase >in news or announcements coming from companies or individuals that claim >they are on the verge of unveiling something momentous, something that >would ultimately be considered highly disruptive in the technological >sense, as these alleged devices would certainly be? > >Technological disruptions certainly do happen in our world. Perhaps these >cyclical patterns can also be detected by a few, before the general public >eventually catches wind. The mystery for me is how does one go about >distinguishing whether these recent news announcements (concerning Over >Unity) should be taken seriously, or do most of them bare the markings of a >snake-oil salesman's pitch, and as such they should be thrown into the >quackery bin. > >The only thing I can fall back on were the early reports of self-powered >flying machines, when the Wright Brothers were first trying to get their >contraption off the ground. As I seem to recall, a good number of initial >news reports were extremely skeptical. Most news agencies did not take such >claims seriously, including apparently the Scientific American publication. > >I would be curious to know what Mark Goldes might have to say about these >recent developments. > >Regards, >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.OrionWorks.com >www.Zazzle.com/OrionWorks > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 18:06:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8H16Q3v026073; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 18:06:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8H16PoU026059; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 18:06:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 18:06:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 11:06:21 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:06:20 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8H16Mlj026024 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70746 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to John Berry's message of Sun, 17 Sep 2006 10:10:37 +1200: Hi, [snip] >> >No Kyle, your mistaken. >> >> You doubt KE = 1/2mv^2? > > >Not in anything other than reactionless propulsion. Who says it's reactionless? Personally, I think it reacts against space itself via the interaction that EM radiation has with the "substrate". This implies that it is reacting against the entire mass of the universe, and hence conservation of momentum implies that all energy expended ends up as kinetic energy of the device and heat (as opposed to being shared with kinetic energy of exhausted mass as is the case with conventional rockets). BTW I also suspect that it is real, because the measured mass change was +2 gm in one orientation, and -2 gm when turned upside down. This is not the sort of thing that results from measurement error caused by using an electronic balance. Besides which, I know for a fact the UFOs are real, and hence that some sort of "reactionless/anti-gravity" drive is possible. This is the best candidate technology I have seen to date. [snip] >Your idea of it having a 'road' or universal stationary reference frame on >which performance is based is positively kookie. ..a nice scientific rebuttal. :> [snip] > >Plus you do not state by which mechanism the thrust would be effected, where >my Doppler effect pushing it out of resonance lowering the Q is pretty much >what was stated in the article, Correct. >There was no indication they used it as a >way to save the conservation of energy Not necessary, since they didn't claim it was being violated in the first place. Only you are making that claim, and so far you haven't backed it up. >and if they did then we can discount >it as bunk anyway because that would mean they have no theoretical basis for >believing in the effect. The logic of this escapes me. Perhaps I am just dense. > >But if you accept that Morton and ATGroup and especially Podkletnov with >their similar gravity beam rigs is for real then how would the conservation >of energy be saved in this case? > >Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter it went >through, and there was no counter reaction on anything. ...but it was able to decide which things it affected and which it didn't? I.e. it didn't effect the things it passed through, but did effect test objects placed in it's path??????? (Had the latter not been true, then how was it detected at all?) > >Face it, if reactionles propulsion if real then the only way the >conservation of energy could MAYBE be saved is is we just assume there is a >loss (or gain) in ZPE somewhere in the universe of equal magnitude with the >gain or loss in kinetic energy, No, we just assume that the gain of kinetic energy is supplied by the microwave power supply. Which is where I started out. Think of it like this. The moment it starts to move, the Doppler shift is going to slightly reduce the amplitude of the standing wave. By adding more microwave power, the amplitude is restored, ensuring that the force is maintained and enabling the motion to continue. If you wish, you can think of it as infinitely many infinitely small steps. [snip] >But a reactionless drive is not tied to a reference frame. Such a drive is paradoxical, and therefore doesn't exist. (Since it has no frame of reference, no energy at all would be needed to accelerate it to infinite velocity - one simply "declares" it to be traveling at the desired speed :). In short everything in the universe has a frame of reference, specifically, at least the frame of reference of the observer. I submit that the frame of reference to use in the case of this drive is that of the microwave background. > >Now try this on for size, fact: If you disregard relativity the energy >needed from a photon rocket to to get to 1 meter a second is half that >needed to get to 2 meters a second and 1/10th that needed to get to 10 >meters a second because it is reactionless. (or kinda) Please show the math for this. > >Now it's ok because the energy in the photons relative to your starting and >final reference frames is less the faster you go, the one during the first >second have a higher frequency than the ones emitted during the last second. >(same freq. at the time of course but lower at the end of the 10 second run) This will depend on the frame of reference of the observer of the photons. > >The point is that a flashlight will yield constant acceleration at a given >power input. Power input also depends on one's frame of reference. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 18:16:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8H1GKGt031181; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 18:16:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8H1GGTj031150; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 18:16:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 18:16:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 11:16:12 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:16:12 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8H1GDul031113 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70747 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Here's a variation on a theme. An atom may be seen as a small spherical resonant chamber, with infinite Q, with EM energy in it. In that respect it looks like one of these drive units, except that it wouldn't develop any force because it is symmetrical. If placed in a severely asymmetric intense electric field, the atom may however deform, becoming somewhat oval. Now we have one end bigger than the other, and a force develops in each atom within the field. All pointing in the same direction. Because the Q is effectively infinite (or unmeasurably large), the force would be considerable, even for a small deformation. Lo and behold, we have a thruster as described by T.T. Brown. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 18:39:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8H1cxjY008591; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 18:38:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8H1cwAm008564; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 18:38:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 18:38:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Another ZPE Company Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 11:38:50 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <923837273.1158450592760.JavaMail.root@fepweb09> In-Reply-To: <923837273.1158450592760.JavaMail.root@fepweb09> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:38:50 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8H1cq2f008443 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70748 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to OrionWorks's message of Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:49:52 -0700: Hi, SN-AKOIL :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 19:13:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8H2DUtM028538; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 19:13:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8H2DSt3028515; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 19:13:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 19:13:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=KBVYFHvp4YgLaY5pVdbIcZUTu3i48AxADW4hKJLu/KG7yzSjr+bXpho95RaIPE1pInMpMV4maU9nQ2Hi2Ay2RpuPRxxRO+wSTiNx2uvIPaVAzFpkKzy4n7uaNkjSRJyPu4G6VncerBoe31O+AVVK9GKzm3OYWfWwwZ9D6KLtubE= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 14:13:26 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor In-Reply-To: <000701c6d9ef$368254c0$9987163f@DFBGQZ91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_55438_4074415.1158459206228" References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d9ef$368254c0$9987163f@DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70749 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_55438_4074415.1158459206228 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > Indeed, it would seem that the hypothesized preferred frame would act as > the > "road". Or the "air". There is another word that could be used, it starts > with an "e" (or "ae") but I will remain a gentleman. :) I'm not so much of a gentleman then. > > But if you accept that Morton and ATGroup and especially Podkletnov with > > their similar gravity beam rigs is for real then how would the > > conservation of energy > be saved in this case? > > I know little of ATG, other than they made an (inefficient) coil-gun. Did > they do something else? I will make no comment on Podkletnov, out of > respect > for those who did work on that effect well within the grasp of the > everyday-man, and yet are unheard of now. As to Morton, do you refer to > the > Van de Graff generator effect? I do not know enough details of these three > you have listed to speak as to their conservation of energy, nevertheless, > they probably do conserve. (Please note use of probably, in place of the > usual must) All made very similar devices that created a gravity like beam. > Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter it went > > through, and there was no counter reaction on anything. > > Where can I find detailed plans so that I can build it in my laboratory? If your serious there is enough detail, are you serious? > Face it, if reactionles propulsion if real then the only way the > > conservation of energy could MAYBE be saved is is we just assume there > is > > a loss (or gain) in ZPE > somewhere in the universe of equal magnitude > > with the gain or loss in kinetic energy, even though figuring out how > this > > could possibly occur and know it it should > even be a loss is crazy but > > if you have to believe in the conservation of energy (why?) then that's > > your best bet. > > There is no need to invoke "ZPE" for which the evidence is sadly lacking > in > it having anything to do with much of...well, anything. ZPE has become the > magickal elixir of everything it seems. I don't mean to sound harsh, but > really it is getting a bit crazy. Mark Twain must be laughing at us all, > as > far as ZPE is concerned, thinking back on his statements regarding such > wholesale returns from such trivial investment of fact. I'd agree with that, there is however ample evidence for energy from the aether. > > Particle accelerators aren't reactionless. > > Neither are reactionless engines eh? reactionless engines aren't reactionless engines? , if they are pushing against a preferred > frame. Where do you see evidence in the dean drive, in the EMDrive that it pushes off your stationary reference frame? Also the thrust from a test reactionless motor would vary with the rotation of the earth likely as the absolute velocity of the device changed. Obviously I have no problem with an aether but what kind of aether are you talking about,a universal stationary one? (I think you must) > Now try this on for size, fact: If you disregard relativity the energy > > needed from a photon rocket to to get to 1 meter a second is half that > > needed to get to 2 > > meters a second and 1/10th that needed to get to 10 meters a second > > because it is reactionless. (or kinda) > > No it is not reactionless Of course it isn't, didn't say it was. , photons* have momentum. But 300MW/Newton does, as > they say, sorta suck. > > > The point is that a flashlight will yield constant acceleration at a > given > > power input. > > The point is that no matter how you work it out, a photon rocket (or a > neutrino rocket, or any of the conjectured "dark energy" rockets) will not > violate C-of-E Of course not they aren't reactionless. . As far as we know, at least; to my knowledge they have not > been tested, owing to the dreadful inefficiency. > > >> Are you by chance equating: > >> A. converting 0.5kW for 10 seconds to thrust, and then for an > additional > >> 10 > >> seconds, as being the same as, > >> B. blasting a rocket for 10 seconds, and then for 10 more seconds? > > > Very much so yes except I have explained why with rockets it isn't > really > > the same as the energy in the exhaust is lowered. > > I suppose that we must disagree then on what we expect of a reactionless > engine. By the way, please don't take any of this personally, I'm actually > having a damn good time being able to discuss something other than > politics > on here, this is a really nice change! > > > Your stationary reference frame makes no freaking sense but if you > choose > > to believe in it that's your choice. > > A lot of things don't make sense at first glance, but they do later. > > > You think that why? > > Sure conservation of energy makes sense as a general observation but > > that's all it is, obviously most energy transformations won't lead to > > anything that breaks the > conservation of energy, but that doesn't mean > > there aren't situations where energy creation/destruction does occur. > > True, it doesn't mean it is impossible. But as far as we know it *is* > impossible No, as far as we know we don't know and as I stated in another thread can never fully know one way or the other, IMO a reactionless engine would prove it to my satisfaction but not to yours I suspect even if it showed to be 'over unity'. . Just because someone hands us (they haven't yet, at least > clearly) a reactionless motor, does not mean that we must discard C-of-E. > I > think the rule of science fiction authors is a good one to go by here: > don't > ask the reader to believe more than 1 impossible thing at a time. That has to do with the human mind and nothing to do with reality. > There are plenty of situations where conservation of energy is not > > observed (both experiments and logic/math) leading to the question, why > do > > you believe that > > energy can't be created? > > Can you please elaborate? I am curious now. Time delay can be shown to yield both free energy and reactionless propulsion. For propulsion imagine I have 2 coils, I put a current through one creating a magnetic field that expands at the speed of light through space. Then I put a current through the second one and immediately if feels a force because it is immersed in the magnetic field of the first coil. The magnetic field from the second coil also expands at the speed of light but can not instantaneously effect the first coil as it is at a distance so while the second coil has a force placed on it the first coil doesn't. (yet) If we now turn coil one off before the magnetic wave from two gets to it we have reactionless thrust. Free energy can be achieved by using time delay in what is known as the waterhammer effect. To best see this effect in a thought experiment it is best to make the fluid absurdly ideal with no care as to how practical it may be. Take a long straight pipe with a fluid that has almost no mass but incredible resistance to compression. The energy in a compressed fluid depends on the force over a certain distance (acting on a piston) and we are going to maximize the force by making this a very reluctantly compressed fluid much like water. Now we accelerate this fluid to high speed in the pipe, if we now place an obstruction at it's leading edge it stops and a pressure wave of compressed fluid stops further motion but this pressure wave can only travel so fast and the trailing edge keeps sailing towards the blockage for a small but very real time. Now if this fluid is appreciably light we may conclude it has an insignificant amount of kinetic energy in it despite perhaps significant velocity, and while the compression created merely by inertia would be a pittance a huge level of compression and hence stored energy must occur due to the delay. In practice it dodn't matter if the fluid is heavy as the inertia the fluid does posses will just force it to compress further, the point is the time delay must exist and there is no way this can't turn into free energy. This effect has been measured in the real world to be overunity as is the electrical analogue. > In most cases though I believe that the conservation of energy and equal > > and opposite and other laws, rules or constants are broken when the > aether > > (space time) > is effected in certain ways, when you do the right things > > to the medium in which all matter and energy floats the rules change. > > You believe in the existence of the "ether"? Aether Why then the opposition to a > preferred frame of reference? (Which is precisely what the "ether" is) Because I believe we drag the aether with us if we are much larger than a particle in an accelerator. ------=_Part_55438_4074415.1158459206228 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

Indeed, it would seem that the hypothesized preferred frame would act as the
"road". Or the "air". There is another word that could be used, it starts
with an "e" (or "ae") but I will remain a gentleman. :)


I'm not so much of a gentleman then. 


> But if you accept that Morton and ATGroup and especially Podkletnov with
> their similar gravity beam rigs is for real then how would the
> conservation of energy > be saved in this case?

I know little of ATG, other than they made an (inefficient) coil-gun. Did
they do something else? I will make no comment on Podkletnov, out of respect
for those who did work on that effect well within the grasp of the
everyday-man, and yet are unheard of now. As to Morton, do you refer to the
Van de Graff generator effect? I do not know enough details of these three
you have listed to speak as to their conservation of energy, nevertheless,
they probably do conserve. (Please note use of probably, in place of the
usual must)

All made very similar devices that created a gravity like beam.

> Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter it went
> through, and there was no counter reaction on anything.

Where can I find detailed plans so that I can build it in my laboratory?

If your serious there is enough detail, are you serious? 

> Face it, if reactionles propulsion if real then the only way the
> conservation of energy could MAYBE be saved is is we just assume there is
> a loss (or gain) in ZPE > somewhere in the universe of equal magnitude
> with the gain or loss in kinetic energy, even though figuring out how this
> could possibly occur and know it it should > even be a loss is crazy but
> if you have to believe in the conservation of energy (why?) then that's
> your best bet.

There is no need to invoke "ZPE" for which the evidence is sadly lacking in
it having anything to do with much of...well, anything. ZPE has become the
magickal elixir of everything it seems. I don't mean to sound harsh, but
really it is getting a bit crazy. Mark Twain must be laughing at us all, as
far as ZPE is concerned, thinking back on his statements regarding such
wholesale returns from such trivial investment of fact.

I'd agree with that, there is however ample evidence for energy from the aether.


> Particle accelerators aren't reactionless.

Neither are reactionless engines

eh? reactionless engines aren't reactionless engines?

, if they are pushing against a preferred
frame.

Where do you see evidence in the dean drive, in the EMDrive that it pushes off your stationary reference frame?

Also the thrust from a test reactionless motor would vary with the rotation of the earth likely as the absolute velocity of the device changed.

Obviously I have no problem with an aether but what kind of aether are you talking about,a universal stationary one? (I think you must)

> Now try this on for size, fact: If you disregard relativity the energy
> needed from a photon rocket to to get to 1 meter a second is half that
> needed to get to 2
> meters a second and 1/10th that needed to get to 10 meters a second
> because it is reactionless. (or kinda)

No it is not reactionless

Of course it isn't, didn't say it was.

, photons* have momentum. But 300MW/Newton does, as
they say, sorta suck.

> The point is that a flashlight will yield constant acceleration at a given
> power input.

The point is that no matter how you work it out, a photon rocket (or a
neutrino rocket, or any of the conjectured "dark energy" rockets) will not
violate C-of-E

Of course not they aren't reactionless.

. As far as we know, at least; to my knowledge they have not
been tested, owing to the dreadful inefficiency.

>> Are you by chance equating:
>> A. converting 0.5kW for 10 seconds to thrust, and then for an additional
>> 10
>> seconds, as being the same as,
>> B. blasting a rocket for 10 seconds, and then for 10 more seconds?

> Very much so yes except I have explained why with rockets it isn't really
> the same as the energy in the exhaust is lowered.

I suppose that we must disagree then on what we expect of a reactionless
engine. By the way, please don't take any of this personally, I'm actually
having a damn good time being able to discuss something other than politics
on here, this is a really nice change!

> Your stationary reference frame makes no freaking sense but if you choose
> to believe in it that's your choice.

A lot of things don't make sense at first glance, but they do later.

> You think that why?
> Sure conservation of energy makes sense as a general observation but
> that's all it is, obviously most energy transformations won't lead to
> anything that breaks the > conservation of energy, but that doesn't mean
> there aren't situations where energy creation/destruction does occur.

True, it doesn't mean it is impossible. But as far as we know it *is*
impossible

No, as far as we know we don't know and as I stated in another thread can never fully know one way or the other, IMO a reactionless engine would prove it to my satisfaction but not to yours I suspect even if it showed to be 'over unity'.

. Just because someone hands us (they haven't yet, at least
clearly) a reactionless motor, does not mean that we must discard C-of-E. I
think the rule of science fiction authors is a good one to go by here: don't
ask the reader to believe more than 1 impossible thing at a time.

That has to do with the human mind and nothing to do with reality.

> There are plenty of situations where conservation of energy is not
> observed (both experiments and logic/math) leading to the question, why do
> you believe that
> energy can't be created?

Can you please elaborate? I am curious now.

Time delay can be shown to yield both free energy and reactionless propulsion.

For propulsion imagine I have 2  coils, I put a current through one creating a magnetic field that expands at the speed of light through space.

Then I put a current through the second one and immediately if feels a force because it is immersed in the magnetic field of the first coil.

The magnetic field from the second coil also expands at the speed of light but can not instantaneously effect the first coil as it is at a distance so while the second coil has a force placed on it the first coil doesn't. (yet)

If we now turn coil one off before the magnetic wave from two gets to it we have reactionless thrust.

Free energy can be achieved by using time delay in what is known as the waterhammer effect.

To best see this effect in a thought experiment it is best to make the fluid absurdly ideal with no care as to how practical it may be.

Take a long straight pipe with a fluid that has almost no mass but incredible resistance to compression.
The energy in a compressed fluid depends on the force over a certain distance (acting on a piston) and we are going to maximize the force by making this a very reluctantly compressed fluid much like water.

Now we accelerate this fluid to high speed in the pipe, if we now place an obstruction at it's leading edge it stops and a pressure wave of compressed fluid stops further motion but this pressure wave can only travel so fast and the trailing edge keeps sailing towards the blockage for a small but very real time.

Now if this fluid is appreciably light we may conclude it has an insignificant amount of kinetic energy in it despite perhaps significant velocity, and while the compression created merely by inertia would be a pittance a huge  level of compression and hence stored energy must occur due to the delay.

In practice it dodn't matter if the fluid is heavy as the inertia the fluid does posses will just force it to compress further, the point is the time delay must exist and there is no way this can't turn into free energy.

This effect has been measured in the real world to be overunity as is the electrical analogue.


> In most cases though I believe that the conservation of energy and equal
> and opposite and other laws, rules or constants are broken when the aether
> (space time) > is effected in certain ways, when you do the right things
> to the medium in which all matter and energy floats the rules change.

You believe in the existence of the "ether"?

Aether

Why then the opposition to a
preferred frame of reference? (Which is precisely what the "ether" is)

Because I believe we drag the aether with us if we are much larger than a particle in an accelerator.

------=_Part_55438_4074415.1158459206228-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 20:29:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8H3T9jH001070; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 20:29:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8H3T7L1001054; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 20:29:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 20:29:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=mhXq7hJrJaovehewvW9Psc/CgFPc89JsKnNE554ZpPbXI11sB9vcUkBmhwxQDrJ+4xmU7Qsq6dHWRv01eQw1WDc8DTQ80h0nig50knbCNdMwu3D5DdB6S5n377XclVaVlVDq1Me6zwJl+EXRDmgBgU48df7GWnlGX3Afx91h/uk= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 15:29:05 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_55870_12289051.1158463745614" References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70750 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_55870_12289051.1158463745614 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 9/17/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to John Berry's message of Sun, 17 Sep 2006 10:10:37 > +1200: > Hi, > [snip] > >> >No Kyle, your mistaken. > >> > >> You doubt KE = 1/2mv^2? > > > > > >Not in anything other than reactionless propulsion. > > Who says it's reactionless? Personally, I think it reacts against > space itself via the interaction that EM radiation has with the > "substrate". This implies that it is reacting against the entire > mass of the universe, and hence conservation of momentum implies > that all energy expended ends up as kinetic energy of the device > and heat (as opposed to being shared with kinetic energy of > exhausted mass as is the case with conventional rockets). > > BTW I also suspect that it is real, because the measured mass > change was +2 gm in one orientation, and -2 gm when turned upside > down. This is not the sort of thing that results from measurement > error caused by using an electronic balance. But what if it was just thrust from heated air + leaks? Besides which, I know for a fact the UFOs are real, and hence that > some sort of "reactionless/anti-gravity" drive is possible. This > is the best candidate technology I have seen to date. I also agree that they are real though I see no evidence they work like the drive in question, they appear to work by rotating the aether. [snip] > >Your idea of it having a 'road' or universal stationary reference frame > on > >which performance is based is positively kookie. > > ..a nice scientific rebuttal. Thanks. :> > [snip] > > > > >Plus you do not state by which mechanism the thrust would be effected, > where > >my Doppler effect pushing it out of resonance lowering the Q is pretty > much > >what was stated in the article, > > Correct. > > >There was no indication they used it as a > >way to save the conservation of energy > > Not necessary, since they didn't claim it was being violated in > the first place. Exactly my point. Only you are making that claim, and so far you > haven't backed it up. It doesn't need to be backed up as it is elementary logic, assuming you accept that double the velocity is quadruple the energy then you must explain why it won't accelerate in a linear fashion with the power supplied. If you can stomach the idea of a Machian universal reference frame however I guess you have good company with Kyle. >and if they did then we can discount > >it as bunk anyway because that would mean they have no theoretical basis > for > >believing in the effect. > > The logic of this escapes me. Perhaps I am just dense. If they based the theory that it doesn't do so well with acceleration because it would violate the conservation of energy then they don't have a real idea as to how it should stop working just feel it should to agree with their philosophical beliefs. > > >But if you accept that Morton and ATGroup and especially Podkletnov with > >their similar gravity beam rigs is for real then how would the > conservation > >of energy be saved in this case? > > > >Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter it went > >through, and there was no counter reaction on anything. > > ...but it was able to decide which things it affected and which it > didn't? What are you talking about? The beam effected everything in it's path as far as I know. I.e. it didn't effect the things it passed through, but > did effect test objects placed in it's path??????? > (Had the latter not been true, then how was it detected at all?) It moved evything it's path, it is measureb by the fact that everything else is not in the beams path. It worked just like you'd expect a parallel 'beam' of gravity to work. > > >Face it, if reactionles propulsion if real then the only way the > >conservation of energy could MAYBE be saved is is we just assume there is > a > >loss (or gain) in ZPE somewhere in the universe of equal magnitude with > the > >gain or loss in kinetic energy, > > No, we just assume that the gain of kinetic energy is supplied by > the microwave power supply. Which is where I started out. > Think of it like this. The moment it starts to move, the Doppler > shift is going to slightly reduce the amplitude of the standing > wave. By adding more microwave power, the amplitude is restored, > ensuring that the force is maintained and enabling the motion to > continue. If you wish, you can think of it as infinitely many > infinitely small steps. I think I understand what your saying i don't however have a clue how what your saying here backs up your idea that a reactionless drive would conserve energy. [snip] > >But a reactionless drive is not tied to a reference frame. > > Such a drive is paradoxical, and therefore doesn't exist. (Since > it has no frame of reference, no energy at all would be needed to > accelerate it to infinite velocity - one simply "declares" it to > be traveling at the desired speed :). > In short everything in the universe has a frame of reference, > specifically, at least the frame of reference of the observer. > > I submit that the frame of reference to use in the case of this > drive is that of the microwave background. > > > > >Now try this on for size, fact: If you disregard relativity the energy > >needed from a photon rocket to to get to 1 meter a second is half that > >needed to get to 2 meters a second and 1/10th that needed to get to 10 > >meters a second because it is reactionless. (or kinda) > > Please show the math for this. You shouldn't need the math for this! It's so basic it hurts. You run the flashlight for 2 minutes it has double the velocity it would have running it for one minute. The only way you can view this as untrue is if you decide that the reaction from emitting a photon is dependant on your velocity relative to your reference frame and that is working with facts not in evidence. > > >Now it's ok because the energy in the photons relative to your starting > and > >final reference frames is less the faster you go, the one during the > first > >second have a higher frequency than the ones emitted during the last > second. > >(same freq. at the time of course but lower at the end of the 10 second > run) > > This will depend on the frame of reference of the observer of the > photons. True > > >The point is that a flashlight will yield constant acceleration at a > given > >power input. > > Power input also depends on one's frame of reference. Constant to the photon rocket ships power indicators. ------=_Part_55870_12289051.1158463745614 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
On 9/17/06, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
In reply to  John Berry's message of Sun, 17 Sep 2006 10:10:37
+1200:
Hi,
[snip]
>> >No Kyle, your mistaken.
>>
>> You doubt KE = 1/2mv^2?
>
>
>Not in anything other than reactionless propulsion.

Who says it's reactionless? Personally, I think it reacts against
space itself via the interaction that EM radiation has with the
"substrate". This implies that it is reacting against the entire
mass of the universe, and hence conservation of momentum implies
that all energy expended ends up as kinetic energy of the device
and heat (as opposed to being shared with kinetic energy of
exhausted mass as is the case with conventional rockets).

BTW I also suspect that it is real, because the measured mass
change was +2 gm in one orientation, and -2 gm when turned upside
down. This is not the sort of thing that results from measurement
error caused by using an electronic balance.

But what if it was just thrust from heated air + leaks?

Besides which, I know for a fact the UFOs are real, and hence that
some sort of "reactionless/anti-gravity" drive is possible. This
is the best candidate technology I have seen to date.

I also agree that they are real though I see no evidence they work like the drive in question, they appear to work by rotating the aether.

[snip]
>Your idea of it having a 'road' or universal stationary reference frame on
>which performance is based is positively kookie.

..a nice scientific rebuttal.

Thanks.

:>
[snip]

>
>Plus you do not state by which mechanism the thrust would be effected, where
>my Doppler effect pushing it out of resonance lowering the Q is pretty much
>what was stated in the article,

Correct.

>There was no indication they used it as a
>way to save the conservation of energy

Not necessary, since they didn't claim it was being violated in
the first place.

Exactly my point.

Only you are making that claim, and so far you
haven't backed it up.

It doesn't need to be backed up as it is elementary logic, assuming you accept that double the velocity is quadruple the energy then you must explain why it won't accelerate in a linear fashion with the power supplied.

If you can stomach the idea of a Machian universal reference frame however I guess you have good company with Kyle.

>and if they did then we can discount
>it as bunk anyway because that would mean they have no theoretical basis for
>believing in the effect.

The logic of this escapes me. Perhaps I am just dense.

If they based the theory that it doesn't do so well with acceleration because it would violate the conservation of energy then they don't have a real idea as to how it should stop working just feel it should to agree with their philosophical beliefs.

>
>But if you accept that Morton and ATGroup and especially Podkletnov with
>their similar gravity beam rigs is for real then how would the conservation
>of energy be saved in this case?
>
>Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter it went
>through, and there was no counter reaction on anything.

...but it was able to decide which things it affected and which it
didn't?

What are you talking about?
The beam effected  everything in it's path as far as I know.

I.e. it didn't effect the things it passed through, but
did effect test objects placed in it's path???????
(Had the latter not been true, then how was it detected at all?)

It moved evything it's path, it is measureb by the fact that everything else is not in the beams path.
It worked just like you'd expect a parallel 'beam' of gravity to work.

>
>Face it, if reactionles propulsion if real then the only way the
>conservation of energy could MAYBE be saved is is we just assume there is a
>loss (or gain) in ZPE somewhere in the universe of equal magnitude with the
>gain or loss in kinetic energy,

No, we just assume that the gain of kinetic energy is supplied by
the microwave power supply. Which is where I started out.
Think of it like this. The moment it starts to move, the Doppler
shift is going to slightly reduce the amplitude of the standing
wave. By adding more microwave power, the amplitude is restored,
ensuring that the force is maintained and enabling the motion to
continue. If you wish, you can think of it as infinitely many
infinitely small steps.

I think I understand what your saying i don't however have a clue how what your saying here backs up your idea that a reactionless drive would conserve energy.

[snip]
>But a reactionless drive is not tied to a reference frame.

Such a drive is paradoxical, and therefore doesn't exist. (Since
it has no frame of reference, no energy at all would be needed to
accelerate it to infinite velocity - one simply "declares" it to
be traveling at the desired speed :).
In short everything in the universe has a frame of reference,
specifically, at least the frame of reference of the observer.

I submit that the frame of reference to use in the case of this
drive is that of the microwave background.

>
>Now try this on for size, fact: If you disregard relativity the energy
>needed from a photon rocket to to get to 1 meter a second is half that
>needed to get to 2 meters a second and 1/10th that needed to get to 10
>meters a second because it is reactionless. (or kinda)

Please show the math for this.

You shouldn't need the math for this!
It's so basic it hurts.

You run the flashlight for 2 minutes it has double the velocity it would have running it for one minute.
The only way you can view this as untrue is if you decide that the reaction from emitting a photon is dependant on your velocity relative to your reference frame and that is working with facts not in evidence.

>
>Now it's ok because the energy in the photons relative to your starting and
>final reference frames is less the faster you go, the one during the first
>second have a higher frequency than the ones emitted during the last second.
>(same freq. at the time of course but lower at the end of the 10 second run)

This will depend on the frame of reference of the observer of the
photons.

True

>
>The point is that a flashlight will yield constant acceleration at a given
>power input.

Power input also depends on one's frame of reference.

Constant to the photon rocket ships power indicators.

------=_Part_55870_12289051.1158463745614-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 22:03:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8H53RG8002189; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 22:03:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8H53QIr002170; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 22:03:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 22:03:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 15:03:20 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 17 Sep 2006 05:03:20 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8H53NcX002107 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70751 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to John Berry's message of Sun, 17 Sep 2006 15:29:05 +1200: Hi, [snip] >> BTW I also suspect that it is real, because the measured mass >> change was +2 gm in one orientation, and -2 gm when turned upside >> down. This is not the sort of thing that results from measurement >> error caused by using an electronic balance. > > >But what if it was just thrust from heated air + leaks? Possible of course. [snip] >It doesn't need to be backed up as it is elementary logic, assuming you >accept that double the velocity is quadruple the energy then you must >explain why it won't accelerate in a linear fashion with the power supplied. [snip] ...but I believe that if it works at all, then it will accelerate, but power will need to be supplied. > >If you can stomach the idea of a Machian universal reference frame however I >guess you have good company with Kyle. Indeed. [snip] >If they based the theory that it doesn't do so well with acceleration >because it would violate the conservation of energy No, that wasn't the reason for that statement. The reason was that as it starts to accelerate, the conditions in the chamber change and the Q drops, which results in a drop in force. However they didn't take into account (IMO) that this could be compensated for by adding more energy. >then they don't have a >real idea as to how it should stop working just feel it should to agree with >their philosophical beliefs. No, they have a very definite idea as to why it would stop working, and it has nothing to do with CofE. [snip] >> >Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter it went >> >through, and there was no counter reaction on anything. >> >> ...but it was able to decide which things it affected and which it >> didn't? > > >What are you talking about? >The beam effected everything in it's path as far as I know. > >I.e. it didn't effect the things it passed through, but >> did effect test objects placed in it's path??????? >> (Had the latter not been true, then how was it detected at all?) > > >It moved evything it's path, it is measureb by the fact that everything else >is not in the beams path. >It worked just like you'd expect a parallel 'beam' of gravity to work. Through the roof of the lab? (See first report). [snip] >> No, we just assume that the gain of kinetic energy is supplied by >> the microwave power supply. Which is where I started out. >> Think of it like this. The moment it starts to move, the Doppler >> shift is going to slightly reduce the amplitude of the standing >> wave. By adding more microwave power, the amplitude is restored, >> ensuring that the force is maintained and enabling the motion to >> continue. If you wish, you can think of it as infinitely many >> infinitely small steps. > > >I think I understand what your saying i don't however have a clue how what >your saying here backs up your idea that a reactionless drive would conserve >energy. Look at the whole thing as a black box. You put microwave energy in, and kinetic energy comes out. Effectively it's just a linear motor (to use your own example). It's just that space itself forms the "rails". Mind you, I still wonder if they took the force on the sloping walls into account. :) (BTW, once again, I don't think it's a "reactionless" drive. In fact I think such a thing is a contradiction in terms.) > >[snip] >> >But a reactionless drive is not tied to a reference frame. >> >> Such a drive is paradoxical, and therefore doesn't exist. (Since >> it has no frame of reference, no energy at all would be needed to >> accelerate it to infinite velocity - one simply "declares" it to >> be traveling at the desired speed :). >> In short everything in the universe has a frame of reference, >> specifically, at least the frame of reference of the observer. >> >> I submit that the frame of reference to use in the case of this >> drive is that of the microwave background. >> >> > >> >Now try this on for size, fact: If you disregard relativity the energy >> >needed from a photon rocket to to get to 1 meter a second is half that >> >needed to get to 2 meters a second and 1/10th that needed to get to 10 >> >meters a second because it is reactionless. (or kinda) >> >> Please show the math for this. > > >You shouldn't need the math for this! >It's so basic it hurts. > >You run the flashlight for 2 minutes it has double the velocity it would >have running it for one minute. Power = E/t. Photon momentum = E/c = Power x t / c. Momentum transfer per unit time = Power / c. However dp/dt is also force (where p stands for momentum), hence the force operating is Power / c = constant (assuming constant power output). Constant force operating on a constant mass yields constant acceleration, which would indeed double your velocity in double the time. However from the point of view of an outsider, your clock is ticking slower, and your power output is dropping, so your force is dropping and your mass is increasing, both of which serve to reduce your acceleration. >The only way you can view this as untrue is if you decide that the reaction >from emitting a photon is dependant on your velocity relative to your >reference frame and that is working with facts not in evidence. [snip] >Constant to the photon rocket ships power indicators. I think this is the source of the problem. You have chosen the vessel itself as the frame of reference, whereas Kyle has chosen an external stationary observer as the frame of reference. Speculative: >From his point of view it takes ever more energy to accelerate (initially 1/2 m V^2 - which is actually the first order derivative of Einstein's famous equation), whereas from your point of view there is no maximum speed. Since you carry your fuel onboard, it is also getting more massive (from Kyle's point of view), as you go faster, which means that you have more mass to convert into energy. IOW you are both right, but seen from different points of view. However it's afternoon, I feel sleepy, and can't escape the feeling that I've overlooked something very important and trivially obvious. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 23:20:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8H6K2xO031167; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 23:20:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8H6EeRr028311; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 23:14:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 23:14:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Nx1r9e7IgU+wZCA1IgDVqyiXRBBjsQJnr+TJDCmFEWfliyOjANAMqK72/hd4LWhlBZpC6EQW+UZVYDE8mYq9Tji2NVYW/awvatuSj22pf4vRFXw5xtAudzeVab2JC8iffIPYEGb7fwvk6kx6yWk2iuXJm0E9NgcG79FTNkVzUWg= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 18:14:35 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_56622_26063185.1158473675403" References: <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70752 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_56622_26063185.1158473675403 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 9/17/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to John Berry's message of Sun, 17 Sep 2006 15:29:05 > +1200: > Hi, > [snip] > >> BTW I also suspect that it is real, because the measured mass > >> change was +2 gm in one orientation, and -2 gm when turned upside > >> down. This is not the sort of thing that results from measurement > >> error caused by using an electronic balance. > > > > > >But what if it was just thrust from heated air + leaks? Of course to counter my own argument if the force remained over longer tests then this seems an unlikely explanation unless it was working as a jet somehow. Possible of course. > [snip] > >It doesn't need to be backed up as it is elementary logic, assuming you > >accept that double the velocity is quadruple the energy then you must > >explain why it won't accelerate in a linear fashion with the power > supplied. > [snip] > > ...but I believe that if it works at all, then it will accelerate, > but power will need to be supplied. > > >If you can stomach the idea of a Machian universal reference frame > however I > >guess you have good company with Kyle. > > Indeed. > [snip] > >If they based the theory that it doesn't do so well with acceleration > >because it would violate the conservation of energy > > No, that wasn't the reason for that statement. The reason was that > as it starts to accelerate, the conditions in the chamber change > and the Q drops, which results in a drop in force. However they > didn't take into account (IMO) that this could be compensated for > by adding more energy. Yes, though I'd say a lot more energy as the Q I believe drops drastically. It is however safe to say that while this is a difficulty with this reactionless drive it isn't a problem that need exist with all reactionless drives and there are 4 solutions suggested to 'fix' this issue on this list. >then they don't have a > >real idea as to how it should stop working just feel it should to agree > with > >their philosophical beliefs. > > No, they have a very definite idea as to why it would stop > working, and it has nothing to do with CofE. Agreed [snip] > >> >Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter it > went > >> >through, and there was no counter reaction on anything. > >> > >> ...but it was able to decide which things it affected and which it > >> didn't? > > > > > >What are you talking about? > >The beam effected everything in it's path as far as I know. > > > >I.e. it didn't effect the things it passed through, but > >> did effect test objects placed in it's path??????? > >> (Had the latter not been true, then how was it detected at all?) > > > > > >It moved evything it's path, it is measureb by the fact that everything > else > >is not in the beams path. > >It worked just like you'd expect a parallel 'beam' of gravity to work. > > Through the roof of the lab? (See first report). I was referring to his later work with the discharge. Also i am not aware of his first version being selective but even if it was that has no weight on what we are discussing. [snip] > >> No, we just assume that the gain of kinetic energy is supplied by > >> the microwave power supply. Which is where I started out. > >> Think of it like this. The moment it starts to move, the Doppler > >> shift is going to slightly reduce the amplitude of the standing > >> wave. By adding more microwave power, the amplitude is restored, > >> ensuring that the force is maintained and enabling the motion to > >> continue. If you wish, you can think of it as infinitely many > >> infinitely small steps. > > > > > >I think I understand what your saying i don't however have a clue how > what > >your saying here backs up your idea that a reactionless drive would > conserve > >energy. > > Look at the whole thing as a black box. You put microwave energy > in, and kinetic energy comes out. Effectively it's just a linear > motor (to use your own example). > It's just that space itself forms the "rails". I understand your idea I don't however agree with it. Mind you, I still wonder if they took the force on the sloping > walls into account. :) My thought too, still if it produces thrust in experiment... (BTW, once again, I don't think it's a "reactionless" drive. In > fact I think such a thing is a contradiction in terms.) > > > > >[snip] > >> >But a reactionless drive is not tied to a reference frame. > >> > >> Such a drive is paradoxical, and therefore doesn't exist. (Since > >> it has no frame of reference, no energy at all would be needed to > >> accelerate it to infinite velocity - one simply "declares" it to > >> be traveling at the desired speed :). > >> In short everything in the universe has a frame of reference, > >> specifically, at least the frame of reference of the observer. > >> > >> I submit that the frame of reference to use in the case of this > >> drive is that of the microwave background. > >> > >> > > >> >Now try this on for size, fact: If you disregard relativity the energy > >> >needed from a photon rocket to to get to 1 meter a second is half that > >> >needed to get to 2 meters a second and 1/10th that needed to get to 10 > >> >meters a second because it is reactionless. (or kinda) > >> > >> Please show the math for this. > > > > > >You shouldn't need the math for this! > >It's so basic it hurts. > > > >You run the flashlight for 2 minutes it has double the velocity it would > >have running it for one minute. > > Power = E/t. Photon momentum = E/c = Power x t / c. Momentum > transfer per unit time = Power / c. However dp/dt is also force > (where p stands for momentum), hence the force operating is Power > / c = constant (assuming constant power output). Constant force > operating on a constant mass yields constant acceleration, which > would indeed double your velocity in double the time. shocker However from the point of view of an outsider, your clock is > ticking slower e are talking about going from 1 meter a second to 2 meters a second. If they are sharp enough to notice that infinitesimal time dilation good on them, it has nothing to do with what i am talking about though. >, and your power output is dropping, so your force > is dropping and your mass is increasing, both of which serve to > reduce your acceleration. Show me the math! Show me how the time dilation, mass increase etc. at 2 meters a second is enough to make the conservation of energy work. Sorry but your so so so far off the mark here it's funny. >The only way you can view this as untrue is if you decide that the reaction > >from emitting a photon is dependant on your velocity relative to your > >reference frame and that is working with facts not in evidence. > > [snip] > >Constant to the photon rocket ships power indicators. > > I think this is the source of the problem. You have chosen the > vessel itself as the frame of reference, whereas Kyle has chosen > an external stationary observer as the frame of reference. moving at 1 or 2 meters a second, get a life ;) It could have chosen 1 or 2 cm's a second based on the thrust from the EMDrive or a photon rocket, no relativistic effects are of ANY interest! Yet going from 1 cm a sec to 2 cm's a sec is 4 times the energy yet takes only double the energy of 1 cm a sec, relativity IS NOT AN ISSUE AT THESE SPEEDS AND IS SO SMALL AS TO BE UNMEASURABLE. Speculative: > > From his point of view it takes ever more energy to accelerate > (initially 1/2 m V^2 - which is actually the first order > derivative of Einstein's famous equation), whereas from your point > of view there is no maximum speed. Since you carry your fuel > onboard, it is also getting more massive (from Kyle's point of > view), as you go faster, which means that you have more mass to > convert into energy. > IOW you are both right, but seen from different points of view. nop However it's afternoon, I feel sleepy, and can't escape the > feeling that I've overlooked something very important and > trivially obvious. yup, we aren't talking about relativistic speeds here. Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > ------=_Part_56622_26063185.1158473675403 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 9/17/06, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
In reply to  John Berry's message of Sun, 17 Sep 2006 15:29:05
+1200:
Hi,
[snip]
>> BTW I also suspect that it is real, because the measured mass
>> change was +2 gm in one orientation, and -2 gm when turned upside
>> down. This is not the sort of thing that results from measurement
>> error caused by using an electronic balance.
>
>
>But what if it was just thrust from heated air + leaks?

Of course to counter my own argument if the force remained over longer tests then this seems an unlikely explanation unless it was working as a jet somehow.

Possible of course.
[snip]
>It doesn't need to be backed up as it is elementary logic, assuming you
>accept that double the velocity is quadruple the energy then you must
>explain why it won't accelerate in a linear fashion with the power supplied.
[snip]

...but I believe that if it works at all, then it will accelerate,
but power will need to be supplied.

>
>If you can stomach the idea of a Machian universal reference frame however I
>guess you have good company with Kyle.

Indeed.
[snip]
>If they based the theory that it doesn't do so well with acceleration
>because it would violate the conservation of energy

No, that wasn't the reason for that statement. The reason was that
as it starts to accelerate, the conditions in the chamber change
and the Q drops, which results in a drop in force. However they
didn't take into account (IMO) that this could be compensated for
by adding more energy.

Yes, though I'd say a lot more energy as the Q I believe drops drastically.
It is however safe to say that while this is a difficulty with this reactionless drive it isn't a problem that need exist with all reactionless drives and there are 4 solutions suggested to 'fix' this issue on this list.

>then they don't have a
>real idea as to how it should stop working just feel it should to agree with
>their philosophical beliefs.

No, they have a very definite idea as to why it would stop
working, and it has nothing to do with CofE.

Agreed 

[snip]
>> >Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter it went
>> >through, and there was no counter reaction on anything.
>>
>> ...but it was able to decide which things it affected and which it
>> didn't?
>
>
>What are you talking about?
>The beam effected  everything in it's path as far as I know.
>
>I.e. it didn't effect the things it passed through, but
>> did effect test objects placed in it's path???????
>> (Had the latter not been true, then how was it detected at all?)
>
>
>It moved evything it's path, it is measureb by the fact that everything else
>is not in the beams path.
>It worked just like you'd expect a parallel 'beam' of gravity to work.

Through the roof of the lab? (See first report).

I was referring to his later work with the discharge.
Also i am not aware of his first version being selective but even if it was that has no  weight on what we are discussing.

[snip]
>> No, we just assume that the gain of kinetic energy is supplied by
>> the microwave power supply. Which is where I started out.
>> Think of it like this. The moment it starts to move, the Doppler
>> shift is going to slightly reduce the amplitude of the standing
>> wave. By adding more microwave power, the amplitude is restored,
>> ensuring that the force is maintained and enabling the motion to
>> continue. If you wish, you can think of it as infinitely many
>> infinitely small steps.
>
>
>I think I understand what your saying i don't however have a clue how what
>your saying here backs up your idea that a reactionless drive would conserve
>energy.

Look at the whole thing as a black box. You put microwave energy
in, and kinetic energy comes out. Effectively it's just a linear
motor (to use your own example).
It's just that space itself forms the "rails".

I understand your idea I don't however agree with it.

Mind you, I still wonder if they took the force on the sloping
walls into account. :)

My thought too, still if it produces thrust in experiment...

(BTW, once again, I don't think it's a "reactionless" drive. In
fact I think such a thing is a contradiction in terms.)

>
>[snip]
>> >But a reactionless drive is not tied to a reference frame.
>>
>> Such a drive is paradoxical, and therefore doesn't exist. (Since
>> it has no frame of reference, no energy at all would be needed to
>> accelerate it to infinite velocity - one simply "declares" it to
>> be traveling at the desired speed :).
>> In short everything in the universe has a frame of reference,
>> specifically, at least the frame of reference of the observer.
>>
>> I submit that the frame of reference to use in the case of this
>> drive is that of the microwave background.
>>
>> >
>> >Now try this on for size, fact: If you disregard relativity the energy
>> >needed from a photon rocket to to get to 1 meter a second is half that
>> >needed to get to 2 meters a second and 1/10th that needed to get to 10
>> >meters a second because it is reactionless. (or kinda)
>>
>> Please show the math for this.
>
>
>You shouldn't need the math for this!
>It's so basic it hurts.
>
>You run the flashlight for 2 minutes it has double the velocity it would
>have running it for one minute.

Power = E/t. Photon momentum = E/c = Power x t / c. Momentum
transfer per unit time = Power / c. However dp/dt is also force
(where p stands for momentum), hence the force operating is Power
/ c = constant (assuming constant power output). Constant force
operating on a constant mass yields constant acceleration, which
would indeed double your velocity in double the time.

shocker

However from the point of view of an outsider, your clock is
ticking slower

e are talking about going from 1 meter a second to 2 meters a second.
If they are sharp enough to notice that infinitesimal time dilation good on them, it has nothing to do with what i am talking about though.

>, and your power output is dropping, so your force
is dropping and your mass is increasing, both of which serve to
reduce your acceleration.

Show me the math!
Show me how the time dilation, mass increase etc. at 2 meters a second is enough to make the conservation of energy work.

Sorry but your so so so far off the mark here it's funny.

>The only way you can view this as untrue is if you decide that the reaction
>from emitting a photon is dependant on your velocity relative to your
>reference frame and that is working with facts not in evidence.

[snip]
>Constant to the photon rocket ships power indicators.

I think this is the source of the problem. You have chosen the
vessel itself as the frame of reference, whereas Kyle has chosen
an external stationary observer as the frame of reference.

moving at 1 or 2 meters a second, get a life ;)
It could have chosen 1 or 2 cm's a second  based on the thrust from the EMDrive or a photon rocket, no relativistic effects are of ANY interest!

Yet going from 1 cm a sec to 2 cm's a sec is 4 times the energy yet takes only double the energy of 1 cm a sec, relativity IS NOT AN ISSUE AT THESE SPEEDS AND IS SO SMALL AS TO BE UNMEASURABLE.

Speculative:

From his point of view it takes ever more energy to accelerate
(initially 1/2 m V^2 - which is actually the first order
derivative of Einstein's famous equation), whereas from your point
of view there is no maximum speed. Since you carry your fuel
onboard, it is also getting more massive (from Kyle's point of
view), as you go faster, which means that you have more mass to
convert into energy.
IOW you are both right, but seen from different points of view.

nop

However it's afternoon, I feel sleepy, and can't escape the
feeling that I've overlooked something very important and
trivially obvious.

yup, we aren't talking about relativistic speeds here.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.


------=_Part_56622_26063185.1158473675403-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 17 00:14:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8H7EeDS023255; Sun, 17 Sep 2006 00:14:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8H7Ed7r023235; Sun, 17 Sep 2006 00:14:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 00:14:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,176,1157299200"; d="scan'208"; a="647514532:sNHT32671056" Message-ID: <450CF5DA.9020006@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 17:14:34 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net><010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583><450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70753 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good work fellows however I am more inclined to look at useable interplanetary speeds, earth to Mars in a few weeks or so, say ~518041367424 km in 6 weeks [1008 hours ] This requires hideous velocities and you will need a hell of a bumperbar on you ship. How do the numbers come out? Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: John Berry > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 6:27 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor > > >> What you should note is that this device if it works at all MUST >> violate the conservation of energy, there is no way round it, if you >> use it to accelerate or row for >10 seconds and it accelerated it to >> 1 meter a second using .5KWh say, then if you run it for 20 seconds >> you'd have used 1KWh, have 2 meters a second velocity >but the energy >> contained in forward movement of your ship is 4 times that of running >> the engines for the 10 seconds. > > > No. > > Assume a 1000kg spacecraft at initially velocity 0m/s. (we will ignore > the "relatives" here for now, more on this later) > > Assume that this spacecraft uses its reactionless propulsion system > (whatever it may be) to accelerate to approximately v=0.1c, or > 29,979,246 m/s. We will ignore relativistic effects at this time. The > energy require to get to this velocity will be K = 1/2 m v^2, or in > this case, 4.494x10^17J. Not a small amount. But what is the energy > required then to accelerate the craft to only v=0.05c? 1.123x10^17J, > or 25% of that required to reach 0.1c. Now of course this makes sense, > the square of velocity and all that. What it also indicates is that to > go from v=0c to v=0.1c you must use increasing energy as time goes by. > If you use a constant energy per unit time (I am using only basic > units here to avoid confusion) you will find your acceleration tapers > off rapidly as velocity is increased. > > So, if you use say (changing from kWh to something that is easier to > follow, kW) 0.5kW for 10 seconds, on a 10,000kg object, the kinetic > energy gained by the object is 5kJ, and our object is moving at a > gentle 1m/s. This of course assumes that your method of converting > electrical energy input to kinetic energy is 100% efficient. > > But...if we apply 0.5kW for 20 seconds, we have added 10kJ to our > 10,000kg object, and its velocity is now...only 1.414m/sec. Can you > get to 0.1c with a constant-power drive? Absolutely, but it will take > much longer to get there, and efficiency will drop as speed increases, > and fall rapidly the faster you try to go. If on the other hand, you > use a constant-acceleration approach, you get there (to your desired > speed) much faster, but you use an ever increasing amount of power. > The total energy to reach 0.1c for constant-power or > constant-acceleration is the same. > > Now here's something interesting. If drive efficiency in attaining > some velocity from some given energy input decreases like this over > time, as velocity builds up, it would seem to imply that an absolute > velocity is important. A very big no-no when it comes to relativity as > we know it. (or as we like to know it) > > You can have a reactionless drive which conserves energy globally, but > to do this it will demonstrate some rather odd effects (at first > glance) which later once you have juggled it in your mind for a while, > really don't end up so confusing in the end. But it does seem to lead > to one reference frame being preferred, and acting as the "road" for > your hypothesized "space car". If a reactionless drive is constructed > successfully, one wonders about its uses to test relativity in a new > and unique way. I'll let you think on that for a bit. > > --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 17 02:10:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8H90FU9027519; Sun, 17 Sep 2006 02:00:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8H8qNtm021518; Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:52:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:52:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,176,1157299200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="946844119:sNHT889095216" Message-ID: <450D051B.7030609@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 18:19:39 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040608030807000200090207" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70755 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040608030807000200090207 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to John Berry's message of Sun, 17 Sep 2006 10:10:37 >+1200: >Hi, >[snip] > > >>>>No Kyle, your mistaken. >>>> >>>> >>>You doubt KE = 1/2mv^2? >>> >>> >>Not in anything other than reactionless propulsion. >> >> > >Who says it's reactionless? Personally, I think it reacts against >space itself via the interaction that EM radiation has with the >"substrate". This implies that it is reacting against the entire >mass of the universe, and hence conservation of momentum implies >that all energy expended ends up as kinetic energy of the device >and heat (as opposed to being shared with kinetic energy of >exhausted mass as is the case with conventional rockets). > >BTW I also suspect that it is real, because the measured mass >change was +2 gm in one orientation, and -2 gm when turned upside >down. This is not the sort of thing that results from measurement >error caused by using an electronic balance. > > I'm not so sure that a safe assumption, robin, if there's an unknown electromagntic interaction with the power supply, or the wires on the table or the multi meter or the reinforcing bars in the concrete floor, etc, etc it could be symmetrical pushing if the machine is up right and pulling if it is upside down. They need to do an open field test away from all metalic materials with variations of the cable and power layouts. I have suggested that to them. snip --------------040608030807000200090207 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin van Spaandonk wrote: 
In reply to  John Berry's message of Sun, 17 Sep 2006 10:10:37
+1200:
Hi,
[snip]
  
No Kyle, your mistaken.
        
You doubt KE = 1/2mv^2?
      
Not in anything other than reactionless propulsion.
    

Who says it's reactionless? Personally, I think it reacts against
space itself via the interaction that EM radiation has with the
"substrate". This implies that it is reacting against the entire
mass of the universe, and hence conservation of momentum implies
that all energy expended ends up as kinetic energy of the device
and heat (as opposed to being shared with kinetic energy of
exhausted mass as is the case with conventional rockets).

BTW I also suspect that it is real, because the measured mass
change was +2 gm in one orientation, and -2 gm when turned upside
down. This is not the sort of thing that results from measurement
error caused by using an electronic balance.
I'm not so sure that a safe assumption, robin, if there's an unknown electromagntic interaction with the power supply, or the wires on the table or the multi meter or the reinforcing bars in the concrete floor, etc, etc it could be symmetrical pushing if the machine is up right and pulling if it is upside down.
They need to do an open field test away from all metalic materials with variations of the cable and power layouts. I have suggested that to them.

snip

--------------040608030807000200090207-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 17 02:12:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8H8eDge010863; Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:40:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8H86eg8019161; Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:06:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:06:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=n6FZoXh2+XAkbjCUpScoj5/WBdhvAF3WlOmatUDAdfoZGKsHtExjXWXEj/ERhed8DY3ZX4USgBVK+y20WQSalPYTFnt+6nDy2O3ToWzt2gC9ITIOAiUl+O4VaiOrJIUMKlUx2ozaIhsNpVs4X8u+g+rxePD/wPOxbAkYRl7T2Qo= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 20:06:23 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor In-Reply-To: <450CF5DA.9020006@iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_57394_24568062.1158480383785" References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <450CF5DA.9020006@iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70754 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_57394_24568062.1158480383785 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well if Kyle and Robin are right it can't be calculated because we can't really know what our velocity relative to the machian reference frame is. If I am right then, well I'm no good at the math but I think that a superconducting chamber bouncing EM around assuming the Q is not effected by the acceleration then I think yes you could get to Mars quite comfortably assuming you have one hell of a bumper bar. But the bumperbar could be the greatest problem if you get the speeds you want. In which case you need to either have something to deflect debris or make the ship less solid or go into hyperspace which sounds a bit far off. Perhaps better would be if I am right and the ship entrains aether, moves aether with it and moves at a high enough speed you might be able to pass right through objects, this sometime seems to be the case where after storms tires are found around tree trunks and straw through iron or in the Hutchison effect where things can sometimes pas through each other (and sometimes get stuck). Maybe we should assume some form of effective propulsion is an inevitability and work on how to protect the ship as high speed. On 9/17/06, Wesley Bruce wrote: > > Good work fellows however I am more inclined to look at useable > interplanetary speeds, earth to Mars in a few weeks or so, say > ~518041367424 km in 6 weeks [1008 hours ] This requires hideous > velocities and you will need a hell of a bumperbar on you ship. How do > the numbers come out? > Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: John Berry > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 6:27 AM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor > > > > > >> What you should note is that this device if it works at all MUST > >> violate the conservation of energy, there is no way round it, if you > >> use it to accelerate or row for >10 seconds and it accelerated it to > >> 1 meter a second using .5KWh say, then if you run it for 20 seconds > >> you'd have used 1KWh, have 2 meters a second velocity >but the energy > >> contained in forward movement of your ship is 4 times that of running > >> the engines for the 10 seconds. > > > > > > No. > > > > Assume a 1000kg spacecraft at initially velocity 0m/s. (we will ignore > > the "relatives" here for now, more on this later) > > > > Assume that this spacecraft uses its reactionless propulsion system > > (whatever it may be) to accelerate to approximately v=0.1c, or > > 29,979,246 m/s. We will ignore relativistic effects at this time. The > > energy require to get to this velocity will be K = 1/2 m v^2, or in > > this case, 4.494x10^17J. Not a small amount. But what is the energy > > required then to accelerate the craft to only v=0.05c? 1.123x10^17J, > > or 25% of that required to reach 0.1c. Now of course this makes sense, > > the square of velocity and all that. What it also indicates is that to > > go from v=0c to v=0.1c you must use increasing energy as time goes by. > > If you use a constant energy per unit time (I am using only basic > > units here to avoid confusion) you will find your acceleration tapers > > off rapidly as velocity is increased. > > > > So, if you use say (changing from kWh to something that is easier to > > follow, kW) 0.5kW for 10 seconds, on a 10,000kg object, the kinetic > > energy gained by the object is 5kJ, and our object is moving at a > > gentle 1m/s. This of course assumes that your method of converting > > electrical energy input to kinetic energy is 100% efficient. > > > > But...if we apply 0.5kW for 20 seconds, we have added 10kJ to our > > 10,000kg object, and its velocity is now...only 1.414m/sec. Can you > > get to 0.1c with a constant-power drive? Absolutely, but it will take > > much longer to get there, and efficiency will drop as speed increases, > > and fall rapidly the faster you try to go. If on the other hand, you > > use a constant-acceleration approach, you get there (to your desired > > speed) much faster, but you use an ever increasing amount of power. > > The total energy to reach 0.1c for constant-power or > > constant-acceleration is the same. > > > > Now here's something interesting. If drive efficiency in attaining > > some velocity from some given energy input decreases like this over > > time, as velocity builds up, it would seem to imply that an absolute > > velocity is important. A very big no-no when it comes to relativity as > > we know it. (or as we like to know it) > > > > You can have a reactionless drive which conserves energy globally, but > > to do this it will demonstrate some rather odd effects (at first > > glance) which later once you have juggled it in your mind for a while, > > really don't end up so confusing in the end. But it does seem to lead > > to one reference frame being preferred, and acting as the "road" for > > your hypothesized "space car". If a reactionless drive is constructed > > successfully, one wonders about its uses to test relativity in a new > > and unique way. I'll let you think on that for a bit. > > > > --Kyle > > ------=_Part_57394_24568062.1158480383785 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well if Kyle and Robin are right it can't be calculated because we can't really know what our velocity relative to the machian reference frame is.

If I am right then, well I'm no good at the math but I think that a superconducting chamber bouncing EM around assuming the Q is not effected by the acceleration then I think yes you could get to Mars quite comfortably assuming you have one hell of a bumper bar.

But the bumperbar could be the greatest problem if you get the speeds you want.
In which case you need to either have something to deflect debris or make the ship less solid or go into hyperspace which sounds a bit far off.

Perhaps better would be if I am right and the ship entrains aether, moves aether with it and moves at a high enough speed you might be able to pass right through objects, this sometime seems to be the case where after storms tires are found around tree trunks and straw through iron or in the Hutchison effect where things can sometimes pas through each other (and sometimes get stuck).

Maybe we should assume some form of effective propulsion is an inevitability and work on how to protect the ship as high speed.


On 9/17/06, Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au> wrote:
Good work fellows however I am more inclined to look at useable
interplanetary speeds, earth to Mars in a few weeks or so, say
~518041367424 km in 6 weeks [1008 hours ] This requires hideous
velocities and you will need a hell of a bumperbar on you ship. How do
the numbers come out?
Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Berry
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 6:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor
>
>
>> What you should note is that this device if it works at all MUST
>> violate the conservation of energy, there is no way round it, if you
>> use it to accelerate or row for >10 seconds and it accelerated it to
>> 1 meter a second using .5KWh say, then if you run it for 20 seconds
>> you'd have used 1KWh, have 2 meters a second velocity >but the energy
>> contained in forward movement of your ship is 4 times that of running
>> the engines for the 10 seconds.
>
>
> No.
>
> Assume a 1000kg spacecraft at initially velocity 0m/s. (we will ignore
> the "relatives" here for now, more on this later)
>
> Assume that this spacecraft uses its reactionless propulsion system
> (whatever it may be) to accelerate to approximately v=0.1c, or
> 29,979,246 m/s. We will ignore relativistic effects at this time. The
> energy require to get to this velocity will be K = 1/2 m v^2, or in
> this case, 4.494x10^17J. Not a small amount. But what is the energy
> required then to accelerate the craft to only v=0.05c? 1.123x10^17J,
> or 25% of that required to reach 0.1c. Now of course this makes sense,
> the square of velocity and all that. What it also indicates is that to
> go from v=0c to v=0.1c you must use increasing energy as time goes by.
> If you use a constant energy per unit time (I am using only basic
> units here to avoid confusion) you will find your acceleration tapers
> off rapidly as velocity is increased.
>
> So, if you use say (changing from kWh to something that is easier to
> follow, kW) 0.5kW for 10 seconds, on a 10,000kg object, the kinetic
> energy gained by the object is 5kJ, and our object is moving at a
> gentle 1m/s. This of course assumes that your method of converting
> electrical energy input to kinetic energy is 100% efficient.
>
> But...if we apply 0.5kW for 20 seconds, we have added 10kJ to our
> 10,000kg object, and its velocity is now...only 1.414m/sec. Can you
> get to 0.1c with a constant-power drive? Absolutely, but it will take
> much longer to get there, and efficiency will drop as speed increases,
> and fall rapidly the faster you try to go. If on the other hand, you
> use a constant-acceleration approach, you get there (to your desired
> speed) much faster, but you use an ever increasing amount of power.
> The total energy to reach 0.1c for constant-power or
> constant-acceleration is the same.
>
> Now here's something interesting. If drive efficiency in attaining
> some velocity from some given energy input decreases like this over
> time, as velocity builds up, it would seem to imply that an absolute
> velocity is important. A very big no-no when it comes to relativity as
> we know it. (or as we like to know it)
>
> You can have a reactionless drive which conserves energy globally, but
> to do this it will demonstrate some rather odd effects (at first
> glance) which later once you have juggled it in your mind for a while,
> really don't end up so confusing in the end. But it does seem to lead
> to one reference frame being preferred, and acting as the "road" for
> your hypothesized "space car". If a reactionless drive is constructed
> successfully, one wonders about its uses to test relativity in a new
> and unique way. I'll let you think on that for a bit.
>
> --Kyle


------=_Part_57394_24568062.1158480383785-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 17 03:15:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8HAFLOh024404; Sun, 17 Sep 2006 03:15:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8HAFGkq024322; Sun, 17 Sep 2006 03:15:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 03:15:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,176,1157299200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="898691754:sNHT37027336" Message-ID: <450CFEE5.2000203@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 17:53:09 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080801020601000602040208" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70756 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080801020601000602040208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ZPE saves the conservation of energy yet again. John Berry wrote: > snip I'm to thick to handle this bit. ;-) > > Plus you do not state by which mechanism the thrust would be effected, > where my Doppler effect pushing it out of resonance lowering the Q is > pretty much what was stated in the article, There was no indication > they used it as a way to save the conservation of energy and if they > did then we can discount it as bunk anyway because that would mean > they have no theoretical basis for believing in the effect. Not quite doppler effect but a good analagy. If the front plate is accelerating relative to the compound wave frount velocity the wave front will peak a few nanometers behind the plate. Hense no push if the plate is moving. > > But if you accept that Morton and ATGroup and especially Podkletnov > with their similar gravity beam rigs is for real then how would the > conservation of energy be saved in this case? > > Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter it > went through, and there was no counter reaction on anything. > I prediced the results for Podklenovs second set of experiments back in 1998. There should be no counter reaction, it is a reactionless drive. We need to get a small one to the sapce station! > Face it, if reactionles propulsion if real then the only way the > conservation of energy could MAYBE be saved is is we just assume there > is a loss (or gain) in ZPE somewhere in the universe of equal > magnitude with the gain or loss in kinetic energy, even though > figuring out how this could possibly occur and know it it should even > be a loss is crazy but if you have to believe in the conservation of > energy (why?) then that's your best bet. > ZPE is the basis for all the theories, mine and Dr Modanese's and thus all the theories on Podkletnovs work are notionally conserving energy. I suspect the Emdrive will in the end also be found to be interacting with ZPE. snip > > The only frame of reference there is, is one that any decent sized > ship drags along, yes that's my own theory not conventional although > plenty of relativists are slowly coming to such a conclusion. (it > allows FTL travel) cool where are the papers? > > Your stationary reference frame makes no freaking sense but if you > choose to believe in it that's your choice. > > >The idea behind it being unable to accelerate and I believe it is > just a > >theory is that ACCELERATION will cause a Doppler like effect and > it will no > >longer be in >resonance hence lower Q and lower EM bouncing in > the box and > >hence lower force. > > Again, I am not talking about the EMdrive thing, particularly > since very > little hard data is known beyond the hearsay of the media, and we > know how > reliable a source they are. (Shawyer used a 700W magnetron or an > 850W one, > depending on who is reporting) > > >You are right that without a stationary reference frame with which to > >measure energy against there is no way it can keep to the > conservation of > >energy and >regardless of whether or not this device works I'm > sure such > >devices do exist which means conservation of energy really is just a > >general observation and not true >in all cases. > > Well, personally I think they (reactionless propulsion systems) > probably are > possible as well, but I will predict that they will be found to > obey energy > conservation. It would be really nice if they *didn't*, but I > think we are > stuck with C-of-E. > > > You think that why? > Sure conservation of energy makes sense as a general observation but > that's all it is, obviously most energy transformations won't lead to > anything that breaks the conservation of energy, but that doesn't mean > there aren't situations where energy creation/destruction does occur. > > There are plenty of situations where conservation of energy is not > observed (both experiments and logic/math) leading to the question, > why do you believe that energy can't be created? > > In most cases though I believe that the conservation of energy and > equal and opposite and other laws, rules or constants are broken when > the aether (space time) is effected in certain ways, when you do the > right things to the medium in which all matter and energy floats the > rules change. > The real question, as with all science, is How do you design an experiment that invalidates the key hypothisis of C - of - E. What are your assumptions and if ZPE is real and usable as energy and reaction medium does that save C - of - E. Then we start all over again asking the question but now we must exclude ZPE experimentally. I see a long and fruit full life for the consevation of energy debate. --------------080801020601000602040208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ZPE saves the conservation of energy yet again.
John Berry wrote:
snip I'm to thick to handle this bit. ;-)

Plus you do not state by which mechanism the thrust would be effected, where my Doppler effect pushing it out of resonance lowering the Q is pretty much what was stated in the article, There was no indication they used it as a way to save the conservation of energy and if they did then we can discount it as bunk anyway because that would mean they have no theoretical basis for believing in the effect.
Not quite doppler effect but a good analagy. If the front plate is accelerating relative to the compound wave frount velocity the wave front will peak a few nanometers behind the plate. Hense no push if the plate is moving.


But if you accept that Morton and ATGroup and especially Podkletnov with their similar gravity beam rigs is for real then how would the conservation of energy be saved in this case?

Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter it went through, and there was no counter reaction on anything.

I prediced the results for Podklenovs second set of experiments back in 1998. There should be no counter reaction, it is a reactionless drive. We need to get a small one to the sapce station!
Face it, if reactionles propulsion if real then the only way the conservation of energy could MAYBE be saved is is we just assume there is a loss (or gain) in ZPE somewhere in the universe of equal magnitude with the gain or loss in kinetic energy, even though figuring out how this could possibly occur and know it it should even be a loss is crazy but if you have to believe in the conservation of energy (why?) then that's your best bet.

ZPE is the basis for all the theories, mine and Dr Modanese's and thus all the theories on Podkletnovs work are notionally conserving energy. I suspect the Emdrive will in the end also be found to be interacting with ZPE.

snip

The only frame of reference there is, is one that any decent sized ship drags along, yes that's my own theory not conventional although plenty of relativists are slowly coming to such a conclusion. (it allows FTL travel)
cool where are the papers?

Your stationary reference frame makes no freaking sense but if you choose to believe in it that's your choice.

>The idea behind it being unable to accelerate and I believe it is just a
>theory is that ACCELERATION will cause a Doppler like effect and it will no
>longer be in >resonance hence lower Q and lower EM bouncing in the box and
>hence lower force.

Again, I am not talking about the EMdrive thing, particularly since very
little hard data is known beyond the hearsay of the media, and we know how
reliable a source they are. (Shawyer used a 700W magnetron or an 850W one,
depending on who is reporting)

>You are right that without a stationary reference frame with which to
>measure energy against there is no way it can keep to the conservation of
>energy and >regardless of whether or not this device works I'm sure such
>devices do exist which means conservation of energy really is just a
>general observation and not true >in all cases.

Well, personally I think they (reactionless propulsion systems) probably are
possible as well, but I will predict that they will be found to obey energy
conservation. It would be really nice if they *didn't*, but I think we are
stuck with C-of-E.

You think that why?
Sure conservation of energy makes sense as a general observation but that's all it is, obviously most energy transformations won't lead to anything that breaks the conservation of energy, but that doesn't mean there aren't situations where energy creation/destruction does occur.

There are plenty of situations where conservation of energy is not observed (both experiments and logic/math) leading to the question, why do you believe that energy can't be created?

In most cases though I believe that the conservation of energy and equal and opposite and other laws, rules or constants are broken when the aether (space time) is effected in certain ways, when you do the right things to the medium in which all matter and energy floats the rules change.

The real question, as with all science, is How do you design an experiment that invalidates the key hypothisis of C - of - E. What are your assumptions and if ZPE is real and usable as energy and reaction medium does that save C - of - E. Then we start all over again asking the question but now we must exclude ZPE experimentally.
I see a long and fruit full life for the consevation of energy debate.

--------------080801020601000602040208-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 17 04:01:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8HB18oa022350; Sun, 17 Sep 2006 04:01:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8HB17ZH022319; Sun, 17 Sep 2006 04:01:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 04:01:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=WYA6veafLZbx3V4yYe/ewdfoTuifvUo+TICbmKuwwwVp9CHQvdviBKpOwhbV6OWGTTlc73VJSEbmnl12iISdE/5i+cgl4qIdcm+hm8Gihin9xJGBQbVbh1m5bjzFBeWaRsu/T8wMJ1ivYKmkLRcBFs2EKWUAmV+aB4ocO+bcatE= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 23:01:05 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor In-Reply-To: <450CFEE5.2000203@iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_58386_28852207.1158490865431" References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> <450CFEE5.2000203@iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70757 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_58386_28852207.1158490865431 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 9/17/06, Wesley Bruce wrote: > > ZPE saves the conservation of energy yet again. > John Berry wrote: > > snip I'm to thick to handle this bit. ;-) > > Plus you do not state by which mechanism the thrust would be effected, > where my Doppler effect pushing it out of resonance lowering the Q is pretty > much what was stated in the article, There was no indication they used it as > a way to save the conservation of energy and if they did then we can > discount it as bunk anyway because that would mean they have no theoretical > basis for believing in the effect. > > Not quite doppler effect but a good analagy. If the front plate is > accelerating relative to the compound wave frount velocity the wave front > will peak a few nanometers behind the plate. Hense no push if the plate is > moving. > My solution (though I loved your rowing idea) was to increase the microwave frequency, increase the length of the chamber coupled with a good constant rate of acceleration so it can again produce as much thrust as if it were stationary, this should still work with your view? But if you accept that Morton and ATGroup and especially Podkletnov with > their similar gravity beam rigs is for real then how would the conservation > of energy be saved in this case? > > Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter it went > through, and there was no counter reaction on anything. > > I prediced the results for Podklenovs second set of experiments back in > 1998. There should be no counter reaction, it is a reactionless drive. We > need to get a small one to the sapce station! > I think I know how Podkletnovs second device works, the aether moves through the donut superconductors inducing a second beam like aether flow at 90 degrees, the exact same thing can be seen to happen in the ATGroup device and Mortons device which was really Podkletnov on a budget. I know that there is a time delay between the arc and the beam which others have pointed out is consistent with an aether theory. I would be interested as to how you predicted it. Morton had a different theory regarding beams from accelerating charges. Face it, if reactionles propulsion if real then the only way the > conservation of energy could MAYBE be saved is if we just assume there is a > loss (or gain) in ZPE somewhere in the universe of equal magnitude with the > gain or loss in kinetic energy, even though figuring out how this could > possibly occur and know it it should even be a loss is crazy but if you have > to believe in the conservation of energy (why?) then that's your best bet. > > ZPE is the basis for all the theories, mine and Dr Modanese's and thus > all the theories on Podkletnovs work are notionally conserving energy. I > suspect the Emdrive will in the end also be found to be interacting with > ZPE. > > snip > > > The only frame of reference there is, is one that any decent sized ship > drags along, yes that's my own theory not conventional although plenty of > relativists are slowly coming to such a conclusion. (it allows FTL travel) > > cool where are the papers? > Just look for frame dragging. They accept outer galaxies are moving away faster than the speed of light but that's ok cause space time is moving with them. They will eventually turn it back into an aether theory. It's only an issue of magnitude of how readily space time can be dragged around by matter. > The real question, as with all science, is How do you design an experiment > that invalidates the key hypothisis of C - of - E. > As I've said earlier I can argue that the conservation of energy is a philosophy, an observation which sometimes is broken and in most math it is conserved but not all as in the example I gave earlier in this thread where it is broken by time delay. It is hard to have a reactionless propulsion without breaking the conservation of energy, and as I reject the idea Robin and Kyle are so comfortable with that leaves only one possibility (that I'll accept) that energy is being balanced by ZPE. And at that point you can't disprove the possibility that energy no matter how logical it might appear that it is being created in a certain device, no matter how much excess energy is generated you can't be sure it isn't vanishing from some mysterious unseen near infinite storehouse of energy. And it does make the point rather moot, a philosophical issue only that can't really ever be proven one way or the other absolutely. What are your assumptions and if ZPE is real and usable as energy and > reaction medium does that save C - of - E. Then we start all over again > asking the question but now we must exclude ZPE experimentally. > I see a long and fruit full life for the consevation of energy debate. > Indeed, but I don't believe it can be excluded really. In the end I think it is closer to an issue of faith, faith in abundance and creation or faith in rigid laws because once ZPE is fair game there is no proving either side, not that there ever was. ------=_Part_58386_28852207.1158490865431 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 9/17/06, Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au> wrote:
ZPE saves the conservation of energy yet again.
John Berry wrote:
snip I'm to thick to handle this bit. ;-)

Plus you do not state by which mechanism the thrust would be effected, where my Doppler effect pushing it out of resonance lowering the Q is pretty much what was stated in the article, There was no indication they used it as a way to save the conservation of energy and if they did then we can discount it as bunk anyway because that would mean they have no theoretical basis for believing in the effect.
Not quite doppler effect but a good analagy. If the front plate is accelerating relative to the compound wave frount velocity the wave front will peak a few nanometers behind the plate. Hense no push if the plate is moving.

My solution (though I loved your rowing idea) was to increase the microwave frequency, increase the length of the chamber coupled with a good constant rate of acceleration so it can again produce as much thrust as if it were stationary, this should still work with your view?

But if you accept that Morton and ATGroup and especially Podkletnov with their similar gravity beam rigs is for real then how would the conservation of energy be saved in this case?

Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter it went through, and there was no counter reaction on anything.

I prediced the results for Podklenovs second set of experiments back in 1998. There should be no counter reaction, it is a reactionless drive. We need to get a small one to the sapce station!

I think I know how Podkletnovs second device works, the aether moves through the donut superconductors inducing a second beam like aether flow at 90 degrees, the exact same thing can be seen to happen in the ATGroup device and Mortons device which was really Podkletnov on a budget.

I know that there is a time delay between the arc and the beam which others have pointed out is consistent with an aether theory.

I would be interested as to how you predicted it.
Morton had a different theory regarding beams from accelerating charges.

Face it, if reactionles propulsion if real then the only way the conservation of energy could MAYBE be saved is if we just assume there is a loss (or gain) in ZPE somewhere in the universe of equal magnitude with the gain or loss in kinetic energy, even though figuring out how this could possibly occur and know it it should even be a loss is crazy but if you have to believe in the conservation of energy (why?) then that's your best bet.

ZPE is the basis for all the theories, mine and Dr Modanese's and thus all the theories on Podkletnovs work are notionally conserving energy. I suspect the Emdrive will in the end also be found to be interacting with ZPE.

snip

The only frame of reference there is, is one that any decent sized ship drags along, yes that's my own theory not conventional although plenty of relativists are slowly coming to such a conclusion. (it allows FTL travel)
cool where are the papers?

Just look for frame dragging.
They accept outer galaxies are moving away faster than the speed of light but that's ok cause space time is moving with them.

They will eventually turn it back into an aether theory.

It's only an issue of magnitude of how readily space time can be dragged around by matter.


The real question, as with all science, is How do you design an experiment that invalidates the key hypothisis of C - of - E.

As I've said earlier I can argue that the conservation of energy is a philosophy, an observation which sometimes is broken and in most math it is conserved but not all as in the example I gave earlier in this thread where it is broken by time delay.

It is hard to have a reactionless propulsion without breaking the conservation of energy, and as I reject the idea Robin and Kyle are so comfortable with that leaves only one possibility (that I'll accept) that energy is being balanced by ZPE.

And at that point you can't disprove the possibility that energy no matter how logical it might appear that it is being created in a certain device, no matter how much excess energy is generated you can't be sure it isn't vanishing from some mysterious unseen near infinite storehouse of energy.

And it does make the point rather moot, a philosophical issue only that can't really ever be proven one way or the other absolutely.

What are your assumptions and if ZPE is real and usable as energy and reaction medium does that save C - of - E. Then we start all over again asking the question but now we must exclude ZPE experimentally.
I see a long and fruit full life for the consevation of energy debate.

Indeed, but I don't believe it can be excluded really.

In the end I think it is closer to an issue of faith, faith in abundance and creation or faith in rigid laws because once ZPE is fair game there is no proving either side, not that there ever was.


------=_Part_58386_28852207.1158490865431-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 17 11:06:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8HI6G6n032558; Sun, 17 Sep 2006 11:06:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8HI69ib032451; Sun, 17 Sep 2006 11:06:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 11:06:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 14:02:33 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_w2YYoAitriP39a8KP+ma0Q)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70758 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_w2YYoAitriP39a8KP+ma0Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The quantity mv^2 was what Leibniz termed vis viva (the living force) to distinguish it from Newton's vis inertia (the force of interia). Neglecting the constant of integration, mv^2 is the integral of mvdv . Harry John Berry wrote: >No Kyle, your mistaken. You doubt KE = 1/2mv^2? Not in anything other than reactionless propulsion. --Boundary_(ID_w2YYoAitriP39a8KP+ma0Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor

The quantity mv^2 was what Leibniz termed vis viva (the living force) to distinguish
it from Newton's vis inertia (the force of interia).
Neglecting the constant of integration,  mv^2  is the integral of   mvdv .

Harry

John Berry wrote:


>No Kyle, your mistaken.

You doubt KE = 1/2mv^2?

Not in anything other than reactionless propulsion.

--Boundary_(ID_w2YYoAitriP39a8KP+ma0Q)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 17 23:22:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8I6Lsc4022597; Sun, 17 Sep 2006 23:21:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8I6LpdA022557; Sun, 17 Sep 2006 23:21:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 23:21:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=JXQfrIb96kZMFEirjjrqPBJOaeTHeHWEJbxt9fZPO4eXoAluY/jLcTGqM1PXpDM+Sdu/oEXPMUC0Tqt/8hcGkvihQHi7rO7wM4oj401p3fnWOlDd0pwSMXi2AiYYx1LfTSCiFs5Vasu4tbnvK6GhOciqg32PxIn2WNO2p4CNmD4= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 02:21:47 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14589_32893371.1158560507932" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70759 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_14589_32893371.1158560507932 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vo., Can any Vo help to answer some simple questions regarding the EM reaction less drive recently reported: Below are a series of general questions and the idea is not to be complex but to ask for some simple measures to try to arrive at a better understanding of the effects that have been observed and reported. Microwave EM Drive General Questions NB: Most microwave tubes used for the ISM, or Industrial, Scientific and Medical band are the same as those used to heat food. These are generally Magnetron tubes and employ a heated filament a permanent magnet, a resonant cavity and thus are able to produce a significant microwave emission at ranges from 500 to 1,500 watts without terribly expensive tubes. It Should Be Noted: A great many of these tubes are vacuum tubes and at the beginning of the operation behave as follows: [a] few electrons flow within the tube even though about 2,100 volts DC ( as a pulsating half wave, slightly filtered resonant capacitor wave form) are applied between the cathode and the anode [b] then the filament heats up... and this takes about 0.25seconds to about 2.0 to 3.0 seconds for useful heat to be developed [c] once full heat of the filament is developed [d] THEN the full DESIGN LEVEL of electron emission obtains. [d] AND NOW... and only now the generally maximum effective electron beam current will be developed NB: The Beam current can be thought of as a current flowing through a wire.... A magnetic field is produced by such flowing current as a beam of electrons JUST AS a magnetic field would be produced if the same current or similar current were to flow in a solid conductor, such as a length of metal wire. The first set of questions is directed toward the magnitude of drive, push or the like with respect to varied parameters For the first question set the power, force, thrust and or measured what have you will be taken to be in grams. First -----> (A) How many grams at zero power? How is the power measured? (B) How many grams at one half power [1/2] power? How is the power measured? (C) How many grams at three quarter power [3/4]? How is the power measured? Second -----> For the second set of questions we ask how much force or "push" is measured in different directions. For example let us say the device is assigned an axis, and let us call it up and down or top and bottom. To make things easier the device will be assigned an arbitrary set of directionality... and we will call these "O" and "B" Let us think of the EM device as one would a small solid fuel rocket, such as a bottle rocket we might see on a holiday fireworks. "O" = OUT... that will be the direction that would be equivalent to the output nozzle of a regular reaction rocket or jet engine or the fireworks.. "B" = BACK ... that would be the back of the rocket or engine.... SO: Please let us again address the EM microwave system: Questions about direction of push, thrust and the like and number of grams.... Again, we ask, at zero, 1/2 and 3/4 and full power, in grams: (A) East (B) West (C) North (D) South (E) UP... eg O or Output (out) pointed to sky (F) DOWN eg B or Back (back) pointed to sky NB: O is where the exhaust gas comes from AND B is the other end ... or the back of the rocket Again, the above at the varied powers...... NEXT: With a generally sensitive magnetometer, ie, Hall Effect or better yet permalloy bridge magnetic sensor...... What is-are the magnetic field produced by the EM Drive at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 and full power? What is are any and all "weight" measures with NO POWER in all of these different directions of position? FINALLY... (FOR NOW) The device must be subjected to the above... AND ... all parameters must be measured. THEN The device must be placed within a double walled air isolated permeable metal container... and all tests repeated. This container may be made of standard soft steel 20 AWG sheet metal of ferrous types and this magnetic shield MUST be 3 to 10 inches form the device. THEN the second wall of the must be separated by 5 to 10 inches from the first shield and must also be made of soft iron alloy. BOTH shield members MUST be demagnetized and-or the material must be of such a nature as to exhibit no "magnetic Memory" or ability to retain magnetic field. NB: Earth field is NOT only North AND South ... but also exhibits fields at other angles. The magnetic anti artifact tests MUST me performed. OR: persons may be fooled OR persons may fool themselves Best will and spirit to all nn ------=_Part_14589_32893371.1158560507932 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Dear Vo.,
 
  Can any Vo help to answer some simple questions regarding the EM reaction less
drive recently reported:
 
 Below are a series of general questions and the idea is not to be
complex but to ask for some simple measures to try to arrive at a better
understanding of the effects that have been observed and reported.
 
Microwave EM Drive General Questions
 
NB:  Most microwave tubes used for the ISM, or Industrial, Scientific and Medical
band are the same as those used to heat food.
        These are generally Magnetron tubes and employ a heated filament
a permanent magnet, a resonant cavity and thus are able to produce a
significant microwave emission at ranges from 500 to 1,500 watts without
terribly expensive tubes.
 
      It Should Be Noted:
 
   A great many of these tubes are vacuum tubes and at the beginning of the operation behave as follows:
 
          [a]   few electrons flow within the tube even though about 2,100 volts DC
( as a pulsating half wave, slightly filtered resonant capacitor wave form) are applied between the cathode and the anode
          [b]  then the filament heats up... and this takes about 0.25 seconds to
about 2.0 to 3.0 seconds for useful heat to be developed
          [c]   once full heat of the filament is developed 
          [d]  THEN  the full DESIGN LEVEL of electron emission obtains.          
          [d]   AND NOW... and only now the generally maximum effective electron      beam current will be developed
 
  NB:   The Beam current can be thought of as a current flowing through a wire....
 
         A magnetic field is produced by such flowing current as a beam of electrons
            JUST AS a magnetic field would be produced if the same current or
similar current were to flow in a solid conductor, such as a length of metal wire.
 
  The first set of questions is directed toward the magnitude of drive, push or
the like with respect to varied parameters
  For the first question set the power, force, thrust and or measured what have you
will be taken to be in grams. 
 First ----->
(A)    How many grams at zero power?  How is the power measured?
(B)    How many grams at one half power [1/2] power? How is the power measured?
(C)    How many grams at three quarter power [3/4]?  How is the power measured?
 
Second ----->
 
   For the second set of questions we ask how much force or "push" is measured
in different directions.  For example let us say the device is assigned an axis, and
let us call it up and down or top and bottom.   To make things easier the device
will be assigned an arbitrary set of directionality...
 and we will call  these "O" and "B"
 
     Let us think of the EM device as one would a small solid fuel rocket, such as
a bottle rocket we might see on a holiday fireworks.
 
       "O"  =  OUT... that will be the direction that would be equivalent to the output nozzle
of a regular reaction rocket or jet engine or the fireworks..
        "B" = BACK ... that would be the back of the rocket or engine....
 
  SO:  
 
            Please let us again  address the EM microwave system:
 
  Questions about direction of push, thrust and the like and number of grams....
Again, we ask, at zero, 1/2 and 3/4 and full power, in grams:
 
   (A)  East
   (B)  West
   (C)  North
   (D)  South
   (E)  UP... eg O or Output (out) pointed to sky
   (F)  DOWN  eg B or Back (back) pointed to sky
 
 NB:
       O is where the exhaust gas comes from 
                       AND
        B is the other end ... or the back of the rocket
  Again, the above at the varied powers......
 
    NEXT:
 
     With a generally sensitive magnetometer, ie, Hall Effect or better yet permalloy bridge magnetic sensor......  What is-are the magnetic field produced by the EM Drive
at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 and full power?
 
     What is are any and all "weight" measures with NO POWER in all of these
different directions of position?
 
  FINALLY... (FOR NOW)
 
      The device must be subjected to the above... AND ... all parameters must be measured.
 
     THEN The device must be placed within a double walled air isolated permeable metal
container... and all tests repeated.
    This container may be made of standard soft steel 20 AWG sheet metal of ferrous
types and this magnetic shield MUST be 3 to 10 inches form the device.  THEN the second wall of the must be separated by 5 to 10 inches from the first shield and must also be made of soft iron alloy.  BOTH shield members MUST be demagnetized and-or
the material must be of such a nature as to exhibit no "magnetic Memory" or ability to
retain magnetic field.
 
 
  NB:  Earth field is NOT only North AND South ... but also exhibits fields at other
angles.
 
    The magnetic anti artifact tests MUST me performed.
 
 OR:   persons may be fooled
 OR    persons may fool themselves
 
       Best will and spirit to all 
 
 
nn
------=_Part_14589_32893371.1158560507932-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 18 02:46:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8I9kQ4k021754; Mon, 18 Sep 2006 02:46:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8I9kOs7021732; Mon, 18 Sep 2006 02:46:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 02:46:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To; b=zQtdX+587DC1cWA1LvXyaY3w0Zu6eNwFVUDJ0qi0BKFf/pYxQSZK94FN2XG7Ic9K0rfE0dFZVGUIhoC4hOFzqdQnUqfuGQ3kwLbeyaz08rJBd0kq58zvV2LoyP+QvpdA3v6mOy8yFfDGVzpkbPvAvstqmwuc+jlGWqUGcEE358c= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: John Herman, EMdrive Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:46:23 +0100 Message-ID: <006f01c6db07$4e82d950$6b00a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0070_01C6DB0F.B0474150" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: Acba62aX295tnvCyRCKsUgeRTVkrfQAG5prA In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70760 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C6DB0F.B0474150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J, Good point about the filament and the delayed start up. I hadn't thought of that. So I'm willing to believe that it could be more than just a microwave oven spewing hot gas. I'll try and contribute to the EM thread once I read the back posts. What about the issue of the group and phase velocities? Swings and roundabouts? R. _____ From: john herman [mailto:hermajohn@gmail.com] Sent: 18 September 2006 07:22 To: vortex-l Subject: [Vo]: Dear Vo., Can any Vo help to answer some simple questions regarding the EM reaction less drive recently reported: Below are a series of general questions and the idea is not to be complex but to ask for some simple measures to try to arrive at a better understanding of the effects that have been observed and reported. Microwave EM Drive General Questions NB: Most microwave tubes used for the ISM, or Industrial, Scientific and Medical band are the same as those used to heat food. These are generally Magnetron tubes and employ a heated filament a permanent magnet, a resonant cavity and thus are able to produce a significant microwave emission at ranges from 500 to 1,500 watts without terribly expensive tubes. It Should Be Noted: A great many of these tubes are vacuum tubes and at the beginning of the operation behave as follows: [a] few electrons flow within the tube even though about 2,100 volts DC ( as a pulsating half wave, slightly filtered resonant capacitor wave form) are applied between the cathode and the anode [b] then the filament heats up... and this takes about 0.25 seconds to about 2.0 to 3.0 seconds for useful heat to be developed [c] once full heat of the filament is developed [d] THEN the full DESIGN LEVEL of electron emission obtains. [d] AND NOW... and only now the generally maximum effective electron beam current will be developed NB: The Beam current can be thought of as a current flowing through a wire.... A magnetic field is produced by such flowing current as a beam of electrons JUST AS a magnetic field would be produced if the same current or similar current were to flow in a solid conductor, such as a length of metal wire. The first set of questions is directed toward the magnitude of drive, push or the like with respect to varied parameters For the first question set the power, force, thrust and or measured what have you will be taken to be in grams. First -----> (A) How many grams at zero power? How is the power measured? (B) How many grams at one half power [1/2] power? How is the power measured? (C) How many grams at three quarter power [3/4]? How is the power measured? Second -----> For the second set of questions we ask how much force or "push" is measured in different directions. For example let us say the device is assigned an axis, and let us call it up and down or top and bottom. To make things easier the device will be assigned an arbitrary set of directionality... and we will call these "O" and "B" Let us think of the EM device as one would a small solid fuel rocket, such as a bottle rocket we might see on a holiday fireworks. "O" = OUT... that will be the direction that would be equivalent to the output nozzle of a regular reaction rocket or jet engine or the fireworks.. "B" = BACK ... that would be the back of the rocket or engine.... SO: Please let us again address the EM microwave system: Questions about direction of push, thrust and the like and number of grams.... Again, we ask, at zero, 1/2 and 3/4 and full power, in grams: (A) East (B) West (C) North (D) South (E) UP... eg O or Output (out) pointed to sky (F) DOWN eg B or Back (back) pointed to sky NB: O is where the exhaust gas comes from AND B is the other end ... or the back of the rocket Again, the above at the varied powers...... NEXT: With a generally sensitive magnetometer, ie, Hall Effect or better yet permalloy bridge magnetic sensor...... What is-are the magnetic field produced by the EM Drive at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 and full power? What is are any and all "weight" measures with NO POWER in all of these different directions of position? FINALLY... (FOR NOW) The device must be subjected to the above... AND ... all parameters must be measured. THEN The device must be placed within a double walled air isolated permeable metal container... and all tests repeated. This container may be made of standard soft steel 20 AWG sheet metal of ferrous types and this magnetic shield MUST be 3 to 10 inches form the device. THEN the second wall of the must be separated by 5 to 10 inches from the first shield and must also be made of soft iron alloy. BOTH shield members MUST be demagnetized and-or the material must be of such a nature as to exhibit no "magnetic Memory" or ability to retain magnetic field. NB: Earth field is NOT only North AND South ... but also exhibits fields at other angles. The magnetic anti artifact tests MUST me performed. OR: persons may be fooled OR persons may fool themselves Best will and spirit to all nn ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C6DB0F.B0474150 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

J,

Good point about the filament and = the delayed start up. I hadn’t thought of = that.

 

So I’m willing to believe = that it could be more than just a microwave oven spewing hot gas. I’ll try = and contribute to the EM thread once I read the back = posts.

 

What about the issue of the group = and phase velocities? Swings and roundabouts?

R.

 

From: john herman [mailto:hermajohn@gmail.com]
Sent: 18 September 2006 = 07:22
To: vortex-l
Subject: [Vo]: =

 

Dear Vo.,

 

  Can any Vo help to answer some simple questions regarding = the EM reaction less

drive recently reported:

 

 Below are a series of general questions and the idea is = not to be

complex but to ask for some simple measures to try to = arrive at a better

understanding of the effects that have been observed and = reported.

 

Microwave EM Drive General = Questions

 

NB:  Most microwave tubes used for the ISM, or Industrial, Scientific and Medical

band are the same as those used to heat = food.

        These are generally Magnetron tubes and employ a heated = filament

a permanent magnet, a resonant cavity and thus are able to = produce a

significant microwave emission at ranges from 500 to 1,500 watts without

terribly expensive tubes.

 

      It Should Be = Noted:

 

   A great many of these tubes are vacuum tubes and at = the beginning of the operation behave as = follows:

 

          = [a]   few electrons flow within the tube even though about 2,100 volts DC =

( as a pulsating half wave, slightly filtered resonant capacitor = wave form) are applied between the cathode and the = anode

          [b]&n= bsp; then the filament heats up... and this takes about 0.25 seconds to =

about 2.0 to 3.0 seconds for useful heat to be = developed

          = [c]   once full heat of the filament is = developed 

          [d]  = THEN  the full DESIGN LEVEL of electron emission obtains.           =

          = [d]   AND NOW... and only now the generally maximum effective electron      beam current will be = developed

 

  NB:   The Beam current can be thought of as a = current flowing through a wire....

 

         A magnetic = field is produced by such flowing current as a beam of = electrons

           = ; JUST AS a magnetic field would be produced if the same current = or

similar current were to flow in a solid conductor, such as a = length of metal wire.

 

  The first set of questions is directed toward the = magnitude of drive, push or

the like with respect to varied = parameters

  For the first question set the power, force, thrust and = or measured what have you

will be taken to be in grams. 

 First ----->

(A)    How many grams at zero power?  How is = the power measured?

(B)    How many grams at one half power [1/2] = power? How is the power measured?

(C)    How many grams at three quarter power [3/4]?  How is the power measured?

 

Second ----->

 

   For the second set of questions we ask how much = force or "push" is measured

in different directions.  For example let us say the device = is assigned an axis, and

let us call it up and down or top and bottom.   To = make things easier the device

will be assigned an arbitrary set of = directionality...

 and we will call  these "O" and = "B"

 

     Let us think of the EM device as one = would a small solid fuel rocket, such as

a bottle rocket we might see on a holiday = fireworks.

 

       "O"  = =3D  OUT... that will be the direction that would be equivalent to the = output nozzle

of a regular reaction rocket or jet engine or the = fireworks..

        "B" =3D BACK ... that would be the back of the rocket or = engine....

 

  SO:  

 

           = ; Please let us again  address the EM microwave = system:

 

  Questions about direction of push, thrust and the like = and number of grams....

Again, we ask, at zero, 1/2 and 3/4 and full power, in = grams:

 

   (A)  East

   (B)  West

   (C)  North

   (D)  South

   (E)  UP... eg O or Output (out) pointed to = sky

   (F)  DOWN  eg B or Back (back) = pointed to sky

 

 NB:

       O is where the exhaust gas = comes from 

           = ;            AND

        B is the other end = ... or the back of the rocket

  Again, the above at the varied = powers......

 

    NEXT:

 

     With a generally sensitive = magnetometer, ie, Hall Effect or better yet permalloy bridge magnetic sensor......  = What is-are the magnetic field produced by the EM = Drive

at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 and full power?

 

     What is are any and all = "weight" measures with NO POWER in all of these

different directions of position?

 

  FINALLY... (FOR NOW)

 

      The device must be subjected to = the above... AND ... all parameters must be = measured.

 

     THEN The device must be placed within a = double walled air isolated permeable metal

container... and all tests = repeated.

    This container may be made of standard soft = steel 20 AWG sheet metal of ferrous

types and this magnetic shield MUST be 3 to 10 inches form the device.  THEN the second wall of the must be separated by 5 to 10 = inches from the first shield and must also be made of soft iron = alloy.  BOTH shield members MUST be demagnetized and-or

the material must be of such a nature as to exhibit no = "magnetic Memory" or ability to

retain magnetic field.

 

 

  NB:  Earth field is NOT only North AND South ... but = also exhibits fields at other

angles.

 

    The magnetic anti artifact tests MUST me = performed.

 

 OR:   persons may be fooled =

 OR    persons may fool = themselves

 

       Best will and spirit to = all 

 

 

nn

------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C6DB0F.B0474150-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 18 08:20:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8IFK3k9026215; Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:20:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8IFHmtX024624; Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:17:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:17:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index; b=O9FLyOM6wIJqJOzGVADMOEx2jv8ktfIA/Tca+TliAVo48MOdMz7oZ7zLOpGo+Iib+Ulsms72DNelv0QiK/OcTuCor7V3PYVZ2bBl3478eKJ8u4J7zLhgO59/iQefd2BBcWuU85+mTvfYyc3QTnYIK8CcPIyeAkrKcuCTWtGYOe8= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:17:46 +0100 Message-ID: <007c01c6db35$9a228120$6b00a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007D_01C6DB3D.FBE6E920" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbbCWtA1emiXJhbQN2T1ugLki477wAK+D0g Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70761 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007D_01C6DB3D.FBE6E920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vortex, I guess you are working on the premise it's correct let's work out the logical implications. Whereas I was working on Andrea Rathke's lead that the chap has got his group and phase velocities confused http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/ElectromagneticPropulsion.htm Following Robin's suggestion that he believes in UFOs and I believe many friends and sane people who said they have seen these things and the sort of consistent thread of lights, buzzing sounds, static electricity effects, interference, being knocked out of the skies by radar, I believe that it is possible to push against some 'substrate' of the universe that is very massive. It is present in all inertial frames and alleviates concerns about momenergy conservation - all the KE ends up with the craft. I will do some work here. I don't think Shawyer is yet correct he is going down the experimentalist route and as such he needs to do superlative experimental work, which he isn't. I think the Graham and Lahoz paper is prophetic, I'll quote from it again: Graham and Lahoz, "Observation of static electromagnetic angular momentum in vacuo", Nature Vol. 285, 154 (1980): "It is remarkable that no know 'particle' can be identified as the agent of the observed electromagnetic angular momentum in the exchange with the mechanical detector. However, this does not imply that a new entity has to be introduced, because the concept of energy-momentum carried by macroscopic quasi-static (italics mine) electromagnetic field is already contained in Maxwell's equations. According to these, and as directly implied by our experimental result, permanent magnets and electrets can be used to build a flywheel of electromagnetic energy steadily flowing in circles in the vacuum gap of a capacitor as if Maxwell's medium were endowed with a property corresponding to super-fluidity (italics mine). The certainly new insight is that the quasi-static Maxwell's field is not merely an unobservable medium of interaction between matter and matter: it has in fact the mechanical properties postulated by Maxwell, in contradistinction to any 'action at a distance' theory." I'm a phenomena man: give me a way in with a well known phenomena and I'll fix the theory. Correct me if I'm wrong but there is nothing about static induction fields in QED ("no known particle") and this effect is purely classical which means that the above average engineer can probably get a handle on it. To me radiation fields are not the answer (Shawyer's problem is with group and phase velocities - he must answer Andrea Rathke's suggestion) but *induction fields* you need an electret or a static electric field at some point. I haven't done any work on this for yonks but I will see if I can take it beyond the theoretic-engineering level into nuts and bolts and I might then liaise with Shawyer. Regards, Remi. ................. Website http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall ................. ------=_NextPart_000_007D_01C6DB3D.FBE6E920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Vortex,

 

I guess you are working on the premise it’s correct let’s work out the = logical implications. Whereas I was working on Andrea Rathke’s lead that = the chap has got his group and phase velocities confused http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/ElectromagneticPropulsion.htm=

Following Robin’s suggestion that he believes = in UFOs and I believe many friends and sane people who said they have seen these = things and the sort of consistent thread of lights, buzzing sounds, static = electricity effects, interference, being knocked out of the skies by radar, I = believe that it is possible to push against some ‘substrate’ of the = universe that is very massive. It is present in all inertial frames and = alleviates concerns about momenergy conservation – all the KE ends up with = the craft. I will do some work here.

 

I don’t think Shawyer is yet correct he is = going down the experimentalist route and as such he needs to do superlative = experimental work, which he isn’t.

 

I think the Graham and Lahoz paper is prophetic, = I’ll quote from it again:

Graham and Lahoz, "Observation of static electromagnetic angular momentum = in vacuo", = Nature Vol. 285, 154 = (1980):

"It is remarkable that no know 'particle' can be identified as the agent of = the observed electromagnetic angular momentum in the exchange with the = mechanical detector. However, this does not imply that a new entity has to be = introduced, because the concept of energy-momentum carried by macroscopic = quasi-static<= i> (italics mine) electromagnetic = field is already contained in Maxwell's equations. According to these, and as = directly implied by our experimental result, permanent magnets and electrets can be used = to build a flywheel of electromagnetic energy steadily flowing in circles = in the vacuum gap of a capacitor as if Maxwell's medium were endowed with a = property corresponding to super-fluidity (italics mine). The certainly new insight is that the quasi-static Maxwell's field is not merely an unobservable medium of interaction between matter and matter: it has in fact the mechanical = properties postulated by Maxwell, in contradistinction to any 'action at a = distance' theory."

I’m a phenomena man: give me a way in with a = well known phenomena and I’ll fix the theory. Correct me if I’m = wrong but there is nothing about static induction fields in QED (“no = known particle”) and this effect is purely classical which means that = the above average engineer can probably get a handle on = it.

 

To me radiation fields are not the answer = (Shawyer’s problem is with group and phase velocities – he must answer Andrea Rathke’s suggestion) but *induction fields* you need an electret or a = static electric field at some point.

 

I haven’t done any work on this for yonks but I = will see if I can take it beyond the theoretic-engineering level into nuts = and bolts and I might then liaise with Shawyer.

Regards,

Remi.

…………………̷= 0;…………………….

Website

http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwa= ll

…………= …………………………= 230;….

 

------=_NextPart_000_007D_01C6DB3D.FBE6E920-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 18 19:38:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8J2cKCC019421; Mon, 18 Sep 2006 19:38:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8J2cDI3019345; Mon, 18 Sep 2006 19:38:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 19:38:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <005001c6db94$35d7dda0$0c027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Jones post Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 21:35:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004C_01C6DB6A.4C3B2A40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <_eMhtC.A.IuE.Vg1DFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70762 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C6DB6A.4C3B2A40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_004D_01C6DB6A.4C3B2A40" ------=_NextPart_001_004D_01C6DB6A.4C3B2A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. Notwithstanding that major breakthrough, the hybrid car itself will need = no large engine, just a tiny genset - similar in size to a present day = turbocharger - except that the compressor-end is gone and replaced with = a high speed electrical generator - operating at only one speed (100,000 = RPM) and about 20 kW output - used to keep the batteries charged for = longer trips than the 10 miles they can go with no genset.=20 This is basically a tiny steam engine. A slightly larger radiator is = there, but it is used to condense some of the steam back to water so = that less need be carried. The steam is made mostly from water which has = been converted onboard into HTP (high test peroxide), but zero HTP = (which is dangerous) is carried aboard the vehicle. How can that be??? Simple, my dear Watson - it is all manufactured and = enriched continuously and "just in time" (as detailed in the next = posting).=20 Howdy Jones, Interesting insight into nature in this article that states.. "Pax=92s projects also take a cue from a design theory called = biomimicry, coined by Janine Benyus, who wrote a seminal book on the = subject in 1997. Biomimicry argues that nature uses only the energy it = needs, fits form to function, and recycles everything. So why not design products the same way?" http://www.pc-news.org/turning-natures-design-into-scientific-breakthroug= h/internet-news/ =20 ------=_NextPart_001_004D_01C6DB6A.4C3B2A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank

Jones wrote..

 
Notwithstanding that major breakthrough, the hybrid car itself will = need no=20 large engine, just a tiny genset - similar in size to a present day = turbocharger=20 - except that the compressor-end is gone and replaced with a high = speed=20 electrical generator - operating at only one speed (100,000 RPM) and = about 20 kW=20 output - used to keep the batteries charged for longer trips than the 10 = miles=20 they can go with no genset.
 
This is basically a tiny steam engine. A slightly larger radiator = is there,=20 but it is used to condense some of the steam back to water so that less = need be=20 carried. The steam is made mostly from water which has been converted = onboard=20 into HTP (high test peroxide), but zero HTP (which is dangerous) is = carried=20 aboard the vehicle.
 
How can that be??? Simple, my dear Watson - it is all = manufactured and=20 enriched continuously and "just in time" (as detailed in the next = posting).=20
 
 
Howdy Jones,
 
Interesting insight into nature in this article that states..
 

"Pax=92s projects also take a cue from a design theory called = biomimicry,=20 coined by Janine Benyus, who wrote a seminal book on the subject in = 1997.=20 Biomimicry argues that nature uses only the energy it needs, fits form = to=20 function, and recycles everything.

So why not design products the same way?"

http://www.pc-news.org/turning-natures-design-i= nto-scientific-breakthrough/internet-news/

 

------=_NextPart_001_004D_01C6DB6A.4C3B2A40-- ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C6DB6A.4C3B2A40 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <004b01c6db94$350683e0$0c027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C6DB6A.4C3B2A40-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 19 05:57:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8JCv6gK014595; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 05:57:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8JCv3m1014559; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 05:57:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 05:57:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=cP/PwrvDzmstPcWDvxihvliVSbp4HwjRZGX7HwxtUNA0Zv0NSKs78W/8GSVCysj/x+ECBilCFutE9DPaynJ96+UZ8sUgO2IPglAy0GBKm44AtzpjNeyrpno+6NxqLTX/0/QGE/28ZOxU+qLYBuKKrwjhxv/UoQXjBYFLItNdDQw= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:57:02 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70763 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Cool Piccy Status: O X-Status: Vortices, Vorts! http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Vortices.jpg Enjoy! Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 19 06:53:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8JDo4Rv008505; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 06:52:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8JDHpeS026270; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 06:17:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 06:17:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200609191317.k8JDHeeX093926@mail1.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:17:40 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_88ad788ccee84bc3d8a4038caf9adba4" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70764 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Steven Krivit Responds in The Cornell Daily Sun Status: RO X-Status: --=_88ad788ccee84bc3d8a4038caf9adba4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See: http://www.cornellsun.com/node/18371 Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks --=_88ad788ccee84bc3d8a4038caf9adba4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See:

http://www.cornellsun.com/node/18371

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks



--=_88ad788ccee84bc3d8a4038caf9adba4-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 19 11:33:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8JIXgJk004500; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 11:33:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8JIXenC004480; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 11:33:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 11:33:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=dlAdfyEX3mACKXPHdN1arLKvc2PYVtkNSyDunkzrnQY9AJxept7iAOKRSxqxQtmZetMjeZo1ay1QoXNDDJHNXpuLIiQ1LXcNyk5zpCfIOefjYVTlXtRdWRz2+nBCTdNHqrEcQMcPeVE7yBLCrOoCUeY205SLA8kvth0KKEqrVXQ= ; Message-ID: <002201c6dc1a$1e6d2e50$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 11:33:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <4uOWHC.A.1FB.EgDEFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70765 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Biomimicry in Automotive Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay "Pax's projects also take a cue from a design theory called biomimicry, coined by Janine Benyus, who wrote a seminal book on the subject in 1997. Biomimicry argues that nature uses only the energy it needs, fits form to function, and recycles everything. So why not design products the same way?" http://www.pc-news.org/turning-natures-design-into-scientific-breakthrough/internet-news/ Yes, excellent insight. Richard (aka Mr. Watson, or is he the real Sherlock?) did not state it explicitly - so at the risk of putting words into his mouth, let me add that biomimicry is an apt analogy in this particular case particularly because - just as nature uses hydrogen peroxide as a key component of every human's energy cycle - (and most plants and insects as well) - the automobile can use an almost identical system, and benefit greatly. That is because peroxide can be made continuously and economically in small systems, using only water and oxygen and metal catalysts - and ambient heat - and is not only a superior oxidizer but also has fuel value of its own, allowing perhaps a doubling of expected mileage under the same circumstances - and a ten-fold increase in the optimized case (i.e. going from 15 MPG to 150 MPG in a hybrid with small genset). The obvious question you might ask: why don't manufacturers do this now instead of the cumbersome anthraquinone process? The answer is complex and historical. First there is no large market of small users (as for gasoline); second, the large users (papermills, chemical companies, etc) make their own peroxide and are locked into existing plants; third: many of the newer techniques are much better suited to making kilograms per hour instead of megatons per hour; plus there is little economy of scale in the newer techniques - in that there is simply not enough "ambient heat" for megaton production - and the cost of adding heat is a major problem for large quantities which does not exist in the kilogram category. Jones Original posting: Notwithstanding that major breakthrough, the hybrid car itself will need no large engine, just a tiny genset - similar in size to a present day turbocharger - except that the compressor-end is gone and replaced with a high speed electrical generator - operating at only one speed (100,000 RPM) and about 20 kW output - used to keep the batteries charged for longer trips than the 10 miles they can go with no genset. This is basically a tiny steam engine. A slightly larger radiator is there, but it is used to condense some of the steam back to water so that less need be carried. The steam is made mostly from water which has been converted onboard into HTP (high test peroxide), but zero HTP (which is dangerous) is carried aboard the vehicle. How can that be??? Simple, my dear Watson - it is all manufactured and enriched continuously and "just in time" (as detailed in the next posting). From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 19 12:37:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8JJbMG7009532; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 12:37:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8JJbLJ1009510; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 12:37:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 12:37:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=LOpca7ou73cg0L2q1jrcvCyRkVwfCGb96m2tQ8LDqa/PfBasQMF3cXB93pgesA6Eh3qnFiQaBJFweggdjXRr4THS8uYxBYJwkYr1ou4og+A4jHa16twiGULJFp6qmEMyxnW9qeEH1Eb5AtiHOSwg8NQc9SPPm5FbhfL8P+kBjk8= ; Message-ID: <007101c6dc22$ff83bbe0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <002201c6dc1a$1e6d2e50$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 12:37:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70766 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Biomimicry in Automotive Status: O X-Status: BTW - in previous postings the term "ambient heat" is a bit inaccurate since the high end of ambient is optimum- what one can derive from direct solar, for instance. About 150 degrees F is adequate for onboard production in an automobile of peroxide in the 2 gallons per hour range. This is easily derived from waste heat, since some small amount of combustion cannot be eliminated easily from any design. The peroxide is made in low concentration by superoxidation of water, and then enriched in a secondary cascade to a usable level. At the genset - a mid-grade enrichment is taken to HTP in one step and then burned at once, so that no HTP is stored. HTP is too dangerous to be stored but is rather easy to enrcih from 40-50% in one step. The midgrade itself is less dangerous than gasoline, for instance, but does have some associated risks. And as for miniaturization - most every cell in your body is doing this for energy, even though the peroxide itself is toxic to them as well - if - that is, it were to be made in excess and before it is needed. That is where anti-oxidants like vitamin C come in. ... and where "just in time" manufacturing, and where Biomimicry comes in, as well From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 19 13:13:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8JKA2rq028247; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:12:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8JK4lfk025053; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:04:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:04:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Biomimicry in Automotive Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 16:16:58 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <007101c6dc22$ff83bbe0$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <3DrUjC.A.UHG.d1EEFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70767 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You know, Jones, it would be fun to pursue this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion. As so. The car is a miserable form of transport. Firstly, it runs on fossil fuels. Rather, we should have the vehicle run on waste vegetable matter. Preferrably the vehicle should have an on-board processing plant so we could "feed" the vegetable matter into it directly. What gets left over from a car is CO2 and pollution, but with my new vehicle the resulting waste would be a rich fertilizer, the better to grow more fuel! Also, tires really suck wind. And you need roads to drive on. Let's replace the wheels with something more rugged, like articulated stilts. Then we can "ride" on most any terrain, even up hills and across water! No roads required now. Now the steel needed to make a car is an expensive and energy rich material. Better we should make our new vehicle out of something more common, like carbon. Common as dirt. Finally, big manufacturing plants also consume a lot of energy and are very wasteful. My new vehicle will need no manufacturing, rather, it will be able to make copies of itself as needed! How revolutionary is that! This new vehicle needs a name. How about...Trigger???? Think I can get a patent on my revolutionary vehicle? (smile). I should try; I think there may be a big demand for this technology in the near future. Remember, you heard it here first. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 3:37 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Biomimicry in Automotive BTW - in previous postings the term "ambient heat" is a bit inaccurate since the high end of ambient is optimum- what one can derive from direct solar, for instance. About 150 degrees F is adequate for onboard production in an automobile of peroxide in the 2 gallons per hour range. This is easily derived from waste heat, since some small amount of combustion cannot be eliminated easily from any design. The peroxide is made in low concentration by superoxidation of water, and then enriched in a secondary cascade to a usable level. At the genset - a mid-grade enrichment is taken to HTP in one step and then burned at once, so that no HTP is stored. HTP is too dangerous to be stored but is rather easy to enrcih from 40-50% in one step. The midgrade itself is less dangerous than gasoline, for instance, but does have some associated risks. And as for miniaturization - most every cell in your body is doing this for energy, even though the peroxide itself is toxic to them as well - if - that is, it were to be made in excess and before it is needed. That is where anti-oxidants like vitamin C come in. ... and where "just in time" manufacturing, and where Biomimicry comes in, as well From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 19 17:06:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8K06IJx015172; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:06:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8K06F4m015133; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:06:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:06:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=4axBgLSMYh0pMRlR3HPhVNNQb3H/+ccIOX2EISaQpDmAsghuUBRowViZG2yCnyk5TuLDBDOEQP2oHSxtwt0vYm9oLCpf9UhxvEBe7pETTBjrfgLkIUheA5BWyZ9P6M4p0iNCS5vLqKHh8jQpnZ0fRCByZisgR0C4bfzTZUMO000= ; Message-ID: <009201c6dc48$92073620$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:06:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <8C5AnD.A.LsD.2XIEFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70768 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Biomimicry in Automotive Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" > [snip] This new vehicle needs a name. How about...Trigger???? Perfect... "road apples" aplenty for the biomimic-cynics ... or perhaps an export item for the enjoyment of our soon-to-be landlords: "Saudi Truffles" ??? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 20 10:07:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8KH74TT021707; Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:07:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8KH71FL021671; Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:07:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:07:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000901c6dcd7$13e51f20$8c8f603f@u5x1p2> From: "lgarrett" To: Subject: [Vo]: BREITBART.COM - Iowa Company Turns to Ammonia for Fuel Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 12:06:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6DCAD.286071E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70769 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6DCAD.286071E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C6DCAD.286071E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C6DCAD.286071E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/19/D8K841N80.html ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C6DCAD.286071E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

 http://w= ww.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/19/D8K841N80.html ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C6DCAD.286071E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6DCAD.286071E0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="BREITBART.COM - Iowa Company Turns to Ammonia for Fuel.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="BREITBART.COM - Iowa Company Turns to Ammonia for Fuel.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/19/D8K841N80.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/19/D8K841N80.html Modified=60D2097FD6DCC60133 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6DCAD.286071E0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 20 10:20:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8KHKkSi031685; Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:20:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8KHKjva031665; Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:20:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:20:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060920131954.0410f480@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 13:20:35 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70770 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Yahoo discussion group discusses cold fusion Status: O X-Status: Mostly a bunch of yahoos. See: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/energyresources/message/94323 - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 21 03:50:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8LAo5iG021581; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 03:50:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8LAkDt6019187; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 03:46:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 03:46:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To; b=D1L3OdVYZLPst342sXi/nNyqitaNoI4TvWR7sF02FsD1kyrisACDUWMUyi52NVH6Ad6TSGYVBkVTCORp+wnbED42zfxrW8FoemHI3MBMnKFqS1NgUVOasxbS4ARoSjBwkDmhyIMAW3v3HgdPRBvavNYZNxhG0lj/RiMRl6P2hmI= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: BREITBART.COM - Iowa Company Turns to Ammonia for Fuel Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:46:10 +0100 Message-ID: <00db01c6dd6b$27a39930$6b00a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00DC_01C6DD73.89680130" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: Acbc2HiKRHgjIFMcTR6Kgbgdbzs0YQAkoz4w In-Reply-To: <000901c6dcd7$13e51f20$8c8f603f@u5x1p2> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70771 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00DC_01C6DD73.89680130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 'Igarret' Seems good. Ammonia is easy to liquefy but when you burn it won't it give off lots of NOx? Remi. _____ From: lgarrett [mailto:lgarrett@devtex.net] Sent: 20 September 2006 18:06 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: BREITBART.COM - Iowa Company Turns to Ammonia for Fuel http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/19/D8K841N80.html ------=_NextPart_000_00DC_01C6DD73.89680130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

‘Igarret’

 

Seems good. Ammonia is easy to = liquefy but when you burn it won’t it give off lots of = NOx?

 

Remi.

 

From: lgarrett [mailto:lgarrett@devtex.net]
Sent: 20 September 2006 = 18:06
To: = vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: = BREITBART.COM - Iowa Company Turns to Ammonia for Fuel

 

 


 http://w= ww.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/19/D8K841N80.html

------=_NextPart_000_00DC_01C6DD73.89680130-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 21 08:18:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8LFIeNd004052; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 08:18:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8LFIRDj003754; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 08:18:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 08:18:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200609211518.k8LFII6g081234@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:18:18 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_ad8b3fe34dcd1af1695d2971dcac73fc" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70772 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Branson's next big bet: Virgin superfuel Status: O X-Status: --=_ad8b3fe34dcd1af1695d2971dcac73fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interview with Richard Branson: See: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2006/08/01/8382250/index.htm?postversion=2006072715 http://tinyurl.com/p3pdl Excerpts: > So we'll be pumping Virgin Fuel? > It will be called Virgin Fuel, yes! It's not > ethanol-based as such, but it'll be a clean > fuel. And if we've got it right, it could be > a very important breakthrough. We think this > fuel will work in cars and trucks and trains > within a year. And we're hoping that it might > work in commercial jet engines within five > years, possibly sooner. So it will be able to > work in Virgin Atlantic planes one day. ... > Likewise with clean fuels; it was exactly the same. > We went out and we registered Virgin Fuels, we went > out and talked to every scientist developing clean > fuels. And when there were breakthroughs, we were > the first on the scene. So we immerse ourselves in > things we are interested in and make sure that > nobody gets there before us. ... Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks --=_ad8b3fe34dcd1af1695d2971dcac73fc Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interview with Richard Branson:

See:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2006/08/01/83822= 50/index.htm?postversion=3D2006072715

http://tinyurl.com/p3pdl

Excerpts:

> So we'll be pumping Virgin Fuel?

> It will be called Virgin Fuel, yes! It's not
> ethanol-based as such, but it'll be a clean
> fuel. And if we've got it right, it could be
> a very important breakthrough. We think this
> fuel will work in cars and trucks and trains
> within a year. And we're hoping that it might
> work in commercial jet engines within five
> years, possibly sooner. So it will be able to
> work in Virgin Atlantic planes one day.

...

> Likewise with clean fuels; it was exactly the same.
> We went out and we registered Virgin Fuels, we went
> out and talked to every scientist developing clean
> fuels. And when there were breakthroughs, we were
> the first on the scene. So we immerse ourselves in
> things we are interested in and make sure that
> nobody gets there before us.

...

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks

--=_ad8b3fe34dcd1af1695d2971dcac73fc-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 21 12:07:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8LJ7adK019510; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:07:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8LJ7Xpe019486; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:07:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:07:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=ITTcPujcG2g+x16kXJIYdvSrfeNPCBUUTi92AKlHMfDjga/kCTnh8wz/ua5ws+/WHs2qYFqYrhCzSZahApgJxr4zT1KKrgNiFoLmxnlZps31UeW8kZ+DV6QR9ahc1QuVMBqBQTkU7kBd4CmSF6zIaFKPe97lLtyYwIKE7pQNpp4= ; Message-ID: <005f01c6ddb1$316af1c0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <200609211518.k8LFII6g081234@mail2.mx.voyager.net> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:07:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <8h9y8B.A.VwE.1LuEFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70773 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Branson's next big bet: Virgin superfuel Status: O X-Status: ... here is more info, and a slightly different slant on the story, from various Golden State sources: Virgin Fuels' role in the alternative fuels sector is simply as an investment in Cilion Inc., reportedly $200 million. The company is headquartered in Goshen, California. Shai Weiss has been appointed Chief Executive of Virgin Fuels, at Branson's request. It is a separate "umbrella" entity, apparently just a distributor. Weiss was formerly Managing Director of Products for UK's largest cable communications company, but has little experience in biofuels or agriculture. Not to worry - the business-end of it is mostly in procurement and distribution of Cilion's ethanol. The technical end is almost in place. already and consists of a number of small advances - none of which are attributed to Branson. Cilion was formed a few months ago in June to build and operate ethanol plants which will be "cheaper and greener" than standard corn-to-ethanol plants. Specific details have not been given but are fairly well known. Cilion plans to build seven plants by 2009 with a total of about 500 million gallons capacity. The first three plants are expected to be in California. One source indicates that Gallo, the worlds largest vintner, is a big player in either this or a competing venture. IOW - these new startups will most likely be using Ag-waste from Californias immense argricultral base as the feedstock for cellulosic ethanol, and possibly using waste heat from cogeneration to distill it- if, that is, the non-distillation (filtration enrichment) process in not perfected in time. Perhaps some of both. The final cost to Virgin will reportedly be less than corn-based ethanol, and the fuel is fully renewable and does not require food grain. "This is a very exciting investment for Virgin and the new company will make a substantial contribution to meeting Governor Schwarzenegger's goal as stated in his recent Executive Order, calling for California to produce a minimum of 20% of its own bio-fuels by 2010," Branson said in a statement. Insiders hint that this might occur before 2010 as Silicon Valley capital is also poised to enter the fray. Branson reportedly has prior personal contacts with the California Guvernator. Despite Branson's "slant" - given in other interviews (mostly European) - he seems to have been initially recruited to get involved in this project by the Californians - and not the other way around - i.e. not as the "inventor," which is how he likes to portray himself as (probably picked that up from reading AlGore's fine book). Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 02:07:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8LM5YTn008657; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:05:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8LM5Uj2008618; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:05:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:05:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=LLeYEAuW4ABG7KFudEs2JQIghvG04MqwZjqx/hvTPJtObFhhZZe8Yf5VQa3T/rkinkgPaE4EDXw1kky2NK5CTsSH2rQ0HumW9AvDV/+//okvmdv14ppNkVIe2oeaYvjrZ0o21VoCwImOOrkSuVBv1BWe2heQA1YLS5axWGVz6XA= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:05:24 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70775 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: California Sues Car Co.s Status: O X-Status: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060920/bs_nm/environment_autos_dc_13 Calif. sues carmakers over global warming By Michael Kahn Wed Sep 20, 2:46 PM ET SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - California on Wednesday sued six of the world's largest automakers, including General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - news) and Toyota Motor Corp. (7203.T), over global warming, charging that greenhouse gases from their vehicles have caused billions of dollars in damages. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 02:07:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8LLo0Dv024797; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:50:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8LLntMm024735; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:49:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:49:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=nHOTauuRPqjjGPEX80+Sg+rjXCXcYHgMQo4zSaJGL+F2Qpvy1UgA1TDiGJNCa0WlBdfOX5fSfFoAdS+wg/UzatCo7GXNKwA/CNwpRzcJyKPsJKFROjrAuZ8NlCidxHDp6XRsbEKBuie0qIgkO1DbT3HtgMdRMCYitaqwaQtHn+Y= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 17:49:52 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70774 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: From xBox to eBox Status: O X-Status: Conversion of a Scion xB to an EV: http://www.evworld.com/syndicated/evworld_article_1084.cfm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 04:32:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8MBWCnk023095; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 04:32:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8MBW5dd023027; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 04:32:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 04:32:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=pZVgJs6rxLPfoUmH8Fz6vNs05bvBrQ2ECnzcHAI2r8ZpuOisG7gTI74rw78Y8voY0soVU+hVxlTP3pjTj+eTPJihoG3GPl7TBL3HM92FfDprpBiU/NBnNydrprrDe5dpnM+4kxEKChcE12WVp6WWS0la7/Mz0yG8aNUbmNlx/Mc= ; Message-ID: <20060922113203.58992.qmail@web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 04:32:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: California Sues Car Co.s To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1357386856-1158924723=:58108" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70776 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1357386856-1158924723=:58108 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I must say this is one of the most ridiculous law suits I ever heard of. Global Warming is directly influenced from the Global aerosol spraying program, which is designed to trap global heat at the expense of peoples health, whereby the medical community is reaping the greatest rewards due to vastly increased numbers of associated health issues. If anyone is that concerned about vehicle emissions, the answer will soon be for sale. Chris New discovery "non detonation nanodiamond" lube reduces friction by 48%, increases fuel mileage by a "minimum" 10% in vehicles tested, and increases machine life as power draw is reduced. http://members.aol.com/hypercom59 Terry Blanton wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060920/bs_nm/environment_autos_dc_13 Calif. sues carmakers over global warming By Michael Kahn Wed Sep 20, 2:46 PM ET SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - California on Wednesday sued six of the world's largest automakers, including General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - news) and Toyota Motor Corp. (7203.T), over global warming, charging that greenhouse gases from their vehicles have caused billions of dollars in damages. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --0-1357386856-1158924723=:58108 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I must say this is one of the most ridiculous law suits I ever heard of.
 
Global Warming is directly influenced from the Global aerosol spraying program, which is designed to trap global heat at the expense of peoples health, whereby the medical community is reaping the greatest rewards due to vastly increased numbers of associated health issues.
 
If anyone is that concerned about vehicle emissions, the answer will soon be for sale.
 
Chris
New discovery "non detonation nanodiamond" lube reduces friction by 48%, increases fuel mileage by a "minimum" 10% in vehicles tested, and increases machine life as power draw is reduced.
http://members.aol.com/hypercom59

Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060920/bs_nm/environment_autos_dc_13

Calif. sues carmakers over global warming By Michael Kahn
Wed Sep 20, 2:46 PM ET

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - California on Wednesday sued six of the
world's largest automakers, including General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM -
news) and Toyota Motor Corp. (7203.T), over global warming, charging
that greenhouse gases from their vehicles have caused billions of
dollars in damages.






Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --0-1357386856-1158924723=:58108-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 06:07:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8MD7APj008700; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 06:07:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8MD75Lo008647; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 06:07:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 06:07:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,202,1157299200"; d="scan'208"; a="353198935:sNHT17668644" Message-ID: <4513DFFA.2070803@iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 23:07:06 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> <450CFEE5.2000203@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70777 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > > > On 9/17/06, *Wesley Bruce* > wrote: > > ZPE saves the conservation of energy yet again. > John Berry wrote: > >> snip I'm to thick to handle this bit. ;-) >> >> Plus you do not state by which mechanism the thrust would be >> effected, where my Doppler effect pushing it out of resonance >> lowering the Q is pretty much what was stated in the article, >> There was no indication they used it as a way to save the >> conservation of energy and if they did then we can discount it as >> bunk anyway because that would mean they have no theoretical >> basis for believing in the effect. > > Not quite doppler effect but a good analagy. If the front plate is > accelerating relative to the compound wave frount velocity the > wave front will peak a few nanometers behind the plate. Hense no > push if the plate is moving. > > > My solution (though I loved your rowing idea) was to increase the > microwave frequency, increase the length of the chamber coupled with a > good constant rate of acceleration so it can again produce as much > thrust as if it were stationary, this should still work with your view? > Catch is its several frequencies building a wave formation that travels fractionally faster that the photons in the wave its self. Drifting all the frequencies up a few Herz would not work easerly. you would run into harmonics and shift beyond microwaves, etc. That why the rowing idea works the emdrive is acceleration but is also stationary because the back force you apply with your 'oar' matches the forward force on the emdrive. >> But if you accept that Morton and ATGroup and especially >> Podkletnov with their similar gravity beam rigs is for real then >> how would the conservation of energy be saved in this case? >> >> Podkletnov found the beam didn't weaken no matter how much matter >> it went through, and there was no counter reaction on anything. >> > I prediced the results for Podklenovs second set of experiments > back in 1998. There should be no counter reaction, it is a > reactionless drive. We need to get a small one to the sapce station! > > oops typo spetted in the 'Space'. :-D > I think I know how Podkletnovs second device works, the aether moves > through the donut superconductors inducing a second beam like aether > flow at 90 degrees, the exact same thing can be seen to happen in the > ATGroup device and Mortons device which was really Podkletnov on a > budget. > Close but the second device is not spinning so the beam or field is not toroidal. The ZPE hitting the Bose electron (a 20 cm cooper 'pair' of billions of electrons) is absorbed but because the wave states of the Bose electron is shared the emitted ZPE can't be random. All the ZPF wave packets must emit in the same direction at the same time. Because the Bose electron is trapped (pined) in a boundary layer between a superconducting layer and a resisting layer a few microns thick it can only recoil in one direction and it can thus only emit in the opposite direction. This makes a beam of ZPE several mega joules that is in effect lased ZPE Perpendicular to the plane of the Bose electron. The rest of the interactions with matter are basically out lined in Stochastic electrodynamics theory. See http://www.calphysics.org/research.html > I know that there is a time delay between the arc and the beam which > others have pointed out is consistent with an aether theory. > I think the arc/ visual effects are secondry. > I would be interested as to how you predicted it. I was reading a lot of work from Haich, Rueda and Puthoff on stochastic electrodynamics at the time. Puthoff stated that the point partons absorbed and emitted ZPE randomly as part of the "zitterbewegung". I simply realised that that must apply for a larger bose condensate of electrons ( several billion Quarks trapped in a plane )but it cant be random. I can't do the math so the idea is going no-where. > Morton had a different theory regarding beams from accelerating charges. > >> Face it, if reactionles propulsion if real then the only way the >> conservation of energy could MAYBE be saved is if we just assume >> there is a loss (or gain) in ZPE somewhere in the universe of >> equal magnitude with the gain or loss in kinetic energy, even >> though figuring out how this could possibly occur and know it it >> should even be a loss is crazy but if you have to believe in the >> conservation of energy (why?) then that's your best bet. >> > ZPE is the basis for all the theories, mine and Dr Modanese's and > thus all the theories on Podkletnovs work are notionally > conserving energy. I suspect the Emdrive will in the end also be > found to be interacting with ZPE. > > snip > >> >> The only frame of reference there is, is one that any decent >> sized ship drags along, yes that's my own theory not conventional >> although plenty of relativists are slowly coming to such a >> conclusion. (it allows FTL travel) > > cool where are the papers? > > > Just look for frame dragging. > They accept outer galaxies are moving away faster than the speed of > light but that's ok cause space time is moving with them. > > They will eventually turn it back into an aether theory. > > It's only an issue of magnitude of how readily space time can be > dragged around by matter. > > > The real question, as with all science, is How do you design an > experiment that invalidates the key hypothisis of C - of - E. > > > As I've said earlier I can argue that the conservation of energy is a > philosophy, an observation which sometimes is broken and in most math > it is conserved but not all as in the example I gave earlier in this > thread where it is broken by time delay. > > It is hard to have a reactionless propulsion without breaking the > conservation of energy, and as I reject the idea Robin and Kyle are so > comfortable with that leaves only one possibility (that I'll accept) > that energy is being balanced by ZPE. > > And at that point you can't disprove the possibility that energy no > matter how logical it might appear that it is being created in a > certain device, no matter how much excess energy is generated you > can't be sure it isn't vanishing from some mysterious unseen near > infinite storehouse of energy. > > And it does make the point rather moot, a philosophical issue only > that can't really ever be proven one way or the other absolutely. > > What are your assumptions and if ZPE is real and usable as energy > and reaction medium does that save C - of - E. Then we start all > over again asking the question but now we must exclude ZPE > experimentally. > I see a long and fruit full life for the consevation of energy > debate. > > > Indeed, but I don't believe it can be excluded really. Yep. > > In the end I think it is closer to an issue of faith, faith in > abundance and creation or faith in rigid laws because once ZPE is fair > game there is no proving either side, not that there ever was. The Universities put a lot of faith in some things: random chance, their assumptions, their teachers and call such guess work proven, probable or Law. Yet they barely grasp the consept of faith at the same time. As for 'Abundance and creation' there lays a dozen more debates. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 06:46:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8MDkL5Y031491; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 06:46:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8MDkKfD031472; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 06:46:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 06:46:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index; b=2Nrg409fCnIBw9ZlzFlkWf1Ixc/MWO8D5Y5i3xTRS1TpXe+dc2GYeSB9rb2CpZP+N3InYUDvjmzPDaQ6hZFi0DSoVgAEUU1mJGb2hrE8Phc4ghYNVHQYYDEfsfh52R0nkBd3Jl+HmieGzzY/hGbHyD/1kjezcwcAMkACrBoEycg= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:46:20 +0100 Message-ID: <00fd01c6de4d$7d5d1c60$6b00a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00FE_01C6DE55.DF218460" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbeTW+FYAvBs/ftQZm7oAQmgG8kig== Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70778 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Face on Mars Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00FE_01C6DE55.DF218460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vo, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5369038.stm New pictures of The Face and apparently a skull. Remi. ................. Website http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall ................. ------=_NextPart_000_00FE_01C6DE55.DF218460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Vo,

 

http://news.bbc.= co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5369038.stm

 

New pictures of The Face and apparently a = skull.

Remi.

 

…………= …………………………= 230;….

Website

http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwa= ll

…………= …………………………= 230;….

 

------=_NextPart_000_00FE_01C6DE55.DF218460-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 07:29:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8METXB5026241; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:29:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8METWr4026220; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:29:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:29:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,202,1157299200"; d="scan'208"; a="491758598:sNHT422710206" Message-ID: <4513F347.2050403@iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 00:29:27 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <010901c6d86b$bc8aef80$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> <450A4B2E.9040404@iinet.net.au> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <450CF5DA.9020006@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70779 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Well if Kyle and Robin are right it can't be calculated because we > can't really know what our velocity relative to the machian reference > frame is. > > If I am right then, well I'm no good at the math but I think that a > superconducting chamber bouncing EM around assuming the Q is not > effected by the acceleration then I think yes you could get to Mars > quite comfortably assuming you have one hell of a bumper bar. > > But the bumperbar could be the greatest problem if you get the speeds > you want. Its not a problem really. Wingtree's plama sail would work as a shield. A particle beam aimed so it charges anything in the path and then magnetic fields to drive it off at an angle will also work. I would back it up by putting a few tons of inert cargo in light containers out in front. If a dust particle hit a box of frozen food, fertilizer, copper, or cement bags little damage would result. As far as mars colonies go frozen food, fertilizer, cement or metals that you haven't found on mars yet is about all you need to ship. Gold, palladium, etc and dimonds would be economic as a back shipped cargo. Your return trip shielding might be just martian dirt and rock. > In which case you need to either have something to deflect debris or > make the ship less solid or go into hyperspace which sounds a bit far > off. > yep From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 07:55:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8MEtNEE012732; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:55:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8MEtMsl012713; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:55:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:55:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=CaMXM9jRd+6hJXiC4Qx23TVGISPZ8/9wVWJTutVwN90If5Us/fIKMrga3hndvPvBjVj9rlkUGbxecX1K1Ekf3cwfoooP19wQ9k1Zoogb8nmV7MQjy8icEbiHdoi1noQ2VCpqvrd5z/CQzsZ4rFg93JhH/83A8QMJY8zzkyRTc2k= ; Message-ID: <001901c6de57$1d53a5a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:55:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <9Dke4.A.hGD.Zl_EFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70780 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: More on Cilion Status: O X-Status: Somewhat of a new twist: importing our energy technology from India ! Don't laugh ... it makes perfect sense when you think about it. India has lots of smart people, a history of respect for education and learning, some good universities, and few energy resources other than what is renewable - moreover, it is a prime agricultural area where anything will grow... and necessity is the mother of invention, as they say in Delhi. ERGO - they have figured out the secret to making ethanol and other biofuels responsibly. By "responsibly" - this means. first and foremost, using Ag waste primarily, and not food crops as the feedstock to ferment, and then applying minimum of energy to enrich ethanol to a useful level. The result is carbon-neutral and affordable even without tax incentives, and a lucrative business prospect, with current tax incentives in place. Without reservation, one might opine, the flood gates are opening for Ag-fuels, thanks to Indians! GOSHEN, Calif. [This is a town on the "Ag Highway" 99, which runs through Stockton, Modesto, Fresno, and Bakersfield - lesser known cities in the state which controls a surprising amount of the world export food production (our trump card against China). Like its biblical namesake, which was the Nile Delta in Egypt - "anything grows" due to the constant sunshine, massive irrigation system (almost no rain), and transient labor force coming up from the Mexico.] Cilion is a new company based in Gohsen - with ambitious plans to build multiple ethanol plants. They recently announced the nascent industry's largest initial capital infusion, totaling well over $200 million. Not bad for a three-month-old firm with no product yet. More surprising is that there are literally dozens of less-well financed competitors, in other parts of rural America, poised to enter the fray - not to mention the corn-users, who will probably be forced to change over to responsible feed-stock and low energy techniques. Cilion is a partnership between Western Milling, California's second largest grain milling company, and Khosla Ventures, a VC firm, and others including Virgin Fuels. Cilion will operate modular, standardized 55 million gallons per year ethanol plants using mostly imported techniques - from India-based Praj technology. http://www.naukri.com/jg/praj/index.htm Using a variety of innovations, these plants will be greener and less expensive than the standard corn-to-ethanol plants, operated in other parts of the USA, therefore substantially reducing the consumption of traditional energy sources in ethanol production. Among the first customers will likely be the farmers themselves. Although fuel for Ag-use is untaxed now (so called "red diesel"), this new ethanol will be cheaper than that reportedly. Many observers are beginning to think that the US Petrochemical industry is in for a huge 'awakening' when they see the political power that farmers can have - once they organize as a voting bloc against oil - and once the renewable biofuels industry reaches a critical mass. Soon you may see imported oil being heavily taxed to support biofuel. Hey - it's only fair after a century of the "oil depletion allowance" tax-giveaway to the petrochemical industry. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 12:31:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8MJUlPC006224; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 12:30:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8MJUhoc006186; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 12:30:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 12:30:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=w+uwac+6O4fsNwxoNPWF14kPrfPN/5IuAOSiCZwZ6TqTEEjKrDf3RtIrdr8ZwtAyU3jK+k71YcPFk+43jxuXUyDV3yQuPXJBCLzUmdbfC9VhaFrcmF3rMHVAQVczJA9NLMIy8V0avbVwRIT7OalE/JZ6HSc2mKqKVPjaZhmRecM= ; Message-ID: <004b01c6de7d$9387b2e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 12:30:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <_HOsnB.A.egB.inDFFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70781 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: On the magnetiztion of Water Status: RO X-Status: Apologies in advance for what may appear to many readers as beating a dead .. err ... "Trigger" perhaps - the subject matter being the future development of a fuel/oxidizer derived from treating water. Biomimicry applied to automobiles. To me, this contentious subject of water-based fuel is not understood fully - and represents a neglected and overlooked niche in the energy picture ... therefore if nothing else, I feel obligated to get as much of it into print and as clearly as possible, since the next generation of Vo's may be motivated to pursue it, if the underfunded efforts in progress now come-up short. Nature has presented a narrow window of opportunity - bona fide "almost-free energy" which can be derived from ambient heat, a little mechanical energy and free feedstock. Almost the entire cost of the end-product is the depreciation of the needed equipment. Future humans will be fools not to take notice of this - unless of course something better comes along (i.e. LENR, hot fusion, magnetic free-energy, etc.). The skeptic might counter that HTP (high test peroxide), for instance, is not all that energetic, and not all that free since so much of it is needed. I think they are wrong. When decomposed, it is true that only 1380 Btu/lb is released, compared to 18,000 for gasoline - a ratio of 13-1; but that is misleading because the free oxygen, the most important part, is neglected. To burn gasoline efficiently one must highly compress lots of air - which accounts for incredible inefficiency in the bottom line. Any rational accounting of the benefit of HTP replacing air will show that a doubling of efficiency (or halving of consumption) is easily feasible. In terms of cost - when produced in situ, the potential advantage of peroxide pushes towards infinity since the only real cost is in amortization of equipment - or "delay" ... and yes, time is money. But the bottom line is that peroxide forms naturally in oxygenated water in small amounts up to a low equilibrium state BUT when the new molecule is promptly removed (easy to do), more will continue to form continuously "for free" (almost free, anyway). It is fair to say that when used as the oxidizer, instead of air, for combustion - peroxide looks like a good alternative, yet no automotive company appears to be pursuing this technological avenue. I will forego any conspiracy-theory innuendos, of the "who killed the electric car variety" ... for that present lack of interest by the Auto makers and attribute it to inertia, "not-invented-here" syndrome, and general ignorance of anything out of the ordinary. END of half-hearted apology for another long post ... Effects Observed with Magnetization of Water A wealth of material concerning the action of magnetic fields on water has been collected from a number of (mainly) Russian Journals. For the time being, it is taken at face value, even though other Russian "lone-R&D" is suspect in the USA. Some of this information is already on the net, some is not. Much of the Russian results can be - and have been validated in simple experiments that anyone can perform using inexpensive equipment. FACT: The physical and chemical properties of water change, and can change significantly, during extended magnetic treatment of H2O especially in situations where either the magnetic field is changed or the liquid flows, crossing the magnetic field lines - and especially where oxygen is added. In validation experiments, the magnetic field can be provided by large ferrite permanent magnets, which can be "boosted" on the active magnet face with stronger NIB magnets. The oxy-magnetic treatment of water creates a number of many unexpected effects: . The surface tension and electrical conductivity of water increase . The solution rate of oxygen increases significantly (order of magnitude). . Hydrogen peroxide and ozone in small concentrations is rapidly formed, depending on oxygen concentration. So long as the peroxide is separated and removed continually, it will continue to form up to a low equilibrium point (fractional percent). . All catalytic processes involving oxidation or reduction speed up. Inexpensive metal colloids are very effective for this, and platinum group metals are not necessary. . The chemical activity of the oxygen dissolved in water increases. This derives from the increase in "wetting-power" and electrochemical activity of water. . There can be a natural cooling effect, probably based on the extraction of ambient heat during the formation of peroxide. It might be possible to use this surprising feature for air conditioning, in addition to making peroxide "on-the-fly" in an automobile. . Extremely low voltage current (fractional volt) accelerates all of the above. Over time, even in a small reactor, it is possible to make significant amounts of hydrogen peroxide - gallons per hour - with little energy expenditure, mostly the 'pumping' or air or oxygen, which also can be arranged synergistically to provide the required mass transport of water - across field lines. The energy input required can be approximated to be on the order of 300 BTU per pound of peroxide produced - in the optimum situation. This can compared to the energy "created" of 1380 BTU/lb plus the extra oxidizing capability which compared to compressing air in an ICE is equal to about 2000 more BTU. When used in a 5-1 ratio to combust ethanol, for instance, about half the effective net energy comes from the peroxide. The source of this "almost-free" energy is simply ambient heat. No overunity or ZPE claim is made and none is necessary, even if the Casimir force may be somehow involved in the mechanics of superoxidation at the molecular level. This is a natural process, and it responsible for a significant part of the energy consumed by all animals and most plants. You may be breathing air, but in every cell you are actually burning the calories - the carbohydrates but NOT burning with oxygen from air per se - instead the cell uses peroxides made from oxygen and water "on-the-fly" and that natural process is precisely what is being proposed here for automobiles (biomimicry). Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 14:43:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8MLeCGd003096; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:43:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8MKijrU010301; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 13:44:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 13:44:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=kT4l1XvkXQewO+UQnleES0or8VlZbB2EGUCDsrRnyPgU9gyTN32lLx+Jz21Gu8legFlfvtUErjB3SapT83iAA5r9AAHag0n1161BVNuf2Rt0u06bqcIxJq2uriT6uNXWXnlMD9jvaF7/sZtnmenbXARUkDqj3k+X8wf1KQcRBf8= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 08:18:42 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor In-Reply-To: <4513DFFA.2070803@iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_68209_11393808.1158956322208" References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> <450CFEE5.2000203@iinet.net.au> <4513DFFA.2070803@iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70782 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_68209_11393808.1158956322208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > > I think I know how Podkletnovs second device works, the aether moves > > through the donut superconductors inducing a second beam like aether > > flow at 90 degrees, the exact same thing can be seen to happen in the > > ATGroup device and Mortons device which was really Podkletnov on a > > budget. > > > Close but the second device is not spinning so the beam or field is not > toroidal. I know, just to clarify what I'm saying is that there is an impulse of aether like a hose which moves with the arc, then at 90 degrees to that aether is set into rotation in the toroidal SC, aluminium or iron toroid's which induces a 3rd aether flow or beam colinear with the first but time delayed. The ZPE hitting the Bose electron (a 20 cm cooper 'pair' of > billions of electrons) is absorbed but because the wave states of the > Bose electron is shared the emitted ZPE can't be random. All the ZPF > wave packets must emit in the same direction at the same time. Because > the Bose electron is trapped (pined) in a boundary layer between a > superconducting layer and a resisting layer a few microns thick it can > only recoil in one direction and it can thus only emit in the opposite > direction. This makes a beam of ZPE several mega joules that is in > effect lased ZPE Perpendicular to the plane of the Bose electron. The > rest of the interactions with matter are basically out lined in > Stochastic electrodynamics theory. See > http://www.calphysics.org/research.html Bollocks. My theory explains Morton's almost identical experiment where he used aluminium instead of superconductor. It explains ATGroups experiment where the initial aether flow was a shockwave of aether flowing through the wire inducing a 90 aether flow in the toroidal iron cores. It also explains 2 other lesser known experimenters who reported an impulse beam from various odd coil setups. As far as I can tell your theory only explains Podkletnov as he is the only one who used superconductors. ------=_Part_68209_11393808.1158956322208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

> I think I know how Podkletnovs second device works, the aether moves
> through the donut superconductors inducing a second beam like aether
> flow at 90 degrees, the exact same thing can be seen to happen in the
> ATGroup device and Mortons device which was really Podkletnov on a
> budget.
>
Close but the second device is not spinning so the beam or field is not
toroidal.

I know, just to clarify what I'm saying is that there is an impulse of aether like a hose which  moves with the arc, then at 90 degrees to that aether is set into rotation in the toroidal SC, aluminium or iron toroid's which induces a 3rd aether flow or beam colinear with the first but time delayed.

The ZPE hitting the Bose electron (a 20 cm cooper 'pair' of
billions of electrons) is absorbed but because the wave states of the
Bose electron is shared the emitted ZPE can't be random. All the  ZPF
wave packets must emit in the same direction at the same time. Because
the Bose electron is trapped (pined) in a boundary layer between a
superconducting layer and a resisting layer a few microns thick it can
only recoil in one direction and it can thus only emit in the opposite
direction. This makes a beam of ZPE several mega joules that is in
effect lased ZPE Perpendicular to the plane of the Bose electron. The
rest of the interactions with matter are basically out lined in
Stochastic electrodynamics theory. See
http://www.calphysics.org/research.html

Bollocks.
My theory explains Morton's almost identical experiment where he used aluminium instead of superconductor.
It explains ATGroups experiment where the initial aether flow was a shockwave of aether flowing through the wire inducing a 90 aether flow in the toroidal iron cores.
It also explains 2 other lesser known experimenters who reported an impulse beam from various odd coil setups.

As far as I can tell your theory only explains Podkletnov as he is the only one who used superconductors.

------=_Part_68209_11393808.1158956322208-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 15:06:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8MLTFft028205; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:29:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8MLTBrF028161; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:29:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:29:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=P25ze53u/TTP+Jx/7MdHSRmawy85S9r7wDCAhG4aTpt9qdx0JB8Aq6DL7gPdbTJczFKmAUNu2F790qACeJr10Mrxbyoph3VXRvMhI5K9f9OeR38yIExiDXGNXFC+pNP8De/Vmr6Br8Z1jiWTwzSuzoNZppLG0zbGZlnrWrfImVA= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 08:31:32 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_68460_17769131.1158957092723" References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> <450CFEE5.2000203@iinet.net.au> <4513DFFA.2070803@iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70783 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_68460_17769131.1158957092723 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I meant to expand on my hose analogy. I was likening the impulse of the arc and aether flow to a hose being turned on because I heard once that droplets of water are found to orbit water coming out of a nosle at high speed. And this is exactly what I believe the aether is doing and furthermore while I am not sure exactly how, I wonder if the reason the droplets do that is because of a 90 degree aether flow. On 9/23/06, John Berry wrote: > > > > > > I think I know how Podkletnovs second device works, the aether moves > > > through the donut superconductors inducing a second beam like aether > > > flow at 90 degrees, the exact same thing can be seen to happen in the > > > ATGroup device and Mortons device which was really Podkletnov on a > > > budget. > > > > > Close but the second device is not spinning so the beam or field is not > > toroidal. > > > I know, just to clarify what I'm saying is that there is an impulse of > aether like a hose which moves with the arc, then at 90 degrees to that > aether is set into rotation in the toroidal SC, aluminium or iron toroid's > which induces a 3rd aether flow or beam colinear with the first but time > delayed. > > The ZPE hitting the Bose electron (a 20 cm cooper 'pair' of > > billions of electrons) is absorbed but because the wave states of the > > Bose electron is shared the emitted ZPE can't be random. All the ZPF > > wave packets must emit in the same direction at the same time. Because > > the Bose electron is trapped (pined) in a boundary layer between a > > superconducting layer and a resisting layer a few microns thick it can > > only recoil in one direction and it can thus only emit in the opposite > > direction. This makes a beam of ZPE several mega joules that is in > > effect lased ZPE Perpendicular to the plane of the Bose electron. The > > rest of the interactions with matter are basically out lined in > > Stochastic electrodynamics theory. See > > http://www.calphysics.org/research.html > > > Bollocks. > My theory explains Morton's almost identical experiment where he used > aluminium instead of superconductor. > It explains ATGroups experiment where the initial aether flow was a > shockwave of aether flowing through the wire inducing a 90 aether flow in > the toroidal iron cores. > It also explains 2 other lesser known experimenters who reported an > impulse beam from various odd coil setups. > > As far as I can tell your theory only explains Podkletnov as he is the > only one who used superconductors. > > ------=_Part_68460_17769131.1158957092723 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I meant to expand on my hose analogy.
I was likening the impulse of the arc and aether flow to a hose being turned on because I heard once that droplets of water are found to orbit water coming out of a nosle at high speed.

And this is exactly what I believe the aether is doing and furthermore while I am not sure exactly how, I wonder if the reason the droplets do that is because of a 90 degree aether flow.

On 9/23/06, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com> wrote:


> I think I know how Podkletnovs second device works, the aether moves
> through the donut superconductors inducing a second beam like aether
> flow at 90 degrees, the exact same thing can be seen to happen in the
> ATGroup device and Mortons device which was really Podkletnov on a
> budget.
>
Close but the second device is not spinning so the beam or field is not
toroidal.

I know, just to clarify what I'm saying is that there is an impulse of aether like a hose which  moves with the arc, then at 90 degrees to that aether is set into rotation in the toroidal SC, aluminium or iron toroid's which induces a 3rd aether flow or beam colinear with the first but time delayed.

The ZPE hitting the Bose electron (a 20 cm cooper 'pair' of
billions of electrons) is absorbed but because the wave states of the
Bose electron is shared the emitted ZPE can't be random. All the  ZPF
wave packets must emit in the same direction at the same time. Because
the Bose electron is trapped (pined) in a boundary layer between a
superconducting layer and a resisting layer a few microns thick it can
only recoil in one direction and it can thus only emit in the opposite
direction. This makes a beam of ZPE several mega joules that is in
effect lased ZPE Perpendicular to the plane of the Bose electron. The
rest of the interactions with matter are basically out lined in
Stochastic electrodynamics theory. See
http://www.calphysics.org/research.html

Bollocks.
My theory explains Morton's almost identical experiment where he used aluminium instead of superconductor.
It explains ATGroups experiment where the initial aether flow was a shockwave of aether flowing through the wire inducing a 90 aether flow in the toroidal iron cores.
It also explains 2 other lesser known experimenters who reported an impulse beam from various odd coil setups.

As far as I can tell your theory only explains Podkletnov as he is the only one who used superconductors.


------=_Part_68460_17769131.1158957092723-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 15:33:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8MMXVBh000538; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:33:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8MMXUtI000515; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:33:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:33:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: On the magnetiztion of Water Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 07:25:30 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <004b01c6de7d$9387b2e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <004b01c6de7d$9387b2e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 22 Sep 2006 21:25:30 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8MMXRL6000472 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70784 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 22 Sep 2006 12:30:34 -0700: Hi Jones, [snip] >. Hydrogen peroxide and ozone in small concentrations is rapidly >formed, depending on oxygen concentration. So long as the peroxide >is separated and removed continually, it will continue to form up >to a low equilibrium point (fractional percent). [snip] How do you intend to remove a fraction of a percent, and concentrate it to HTP? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 16:10:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8MN9lHi018988; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:09:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8MN9kxF018967; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:09:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:09:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=k5wF9a6BZG40qPG3eOcymGWvKL3Np0+ygvLEPEtmPVe41b2YceC2WKGMpv2qQOjglX3aLXOlbJyTw+YYvlvgCZRj4PYiGVDuIIWmMeZK1GUxJKrdjcOdSHftt6CmOgh6tytfbLQFVyn+vN1PXP93GuZkDw6sdOGv5oHivcU7Vfk= ; Message-ID: <20060922230946.49662.qmail@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:09:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70785 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: On the magnetiztion of Water Status: RO X-Status: --- Robin > How do you intend to remove a fraction of a percent, The fractional percent is with no catalyst present (pure water) but the equilibrium level is much higher with a colloidal catalyst. > and concentrate it to HTP? That is done in a cascade. Because of the enormous density difference, only a few simple stages are needed. We hope to get to mid-grade with three stages, maybe two, and to HTP from there in one final stage, which is done immediately prior to injection so that there is almost no stored HTP. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 16:32:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8MNVtkf000605; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:31:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8MNVspP000590; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:31:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:31:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=leNMTFbIaXMUM4C/s42fc8zcwB+VovRS/4qlgDe5dre1dJFqMHpTQFzZUNkdAm1A; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220069522233235760@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:32:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8c82776a662271d6d408ff30a313606853b5efdd33357ec02350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.232.15.186 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70786 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 22, 2006 Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Date: 9/22/2006 2:29:09 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 22, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 22 Sep 06 Washington, DC 1. POLYGRAPH: SCIENCE MOVED ON FEDERAL AGENCIES NEVER NOTICED. Eighteen years ago, WN said, "the polygraph can't tell a lie from the sex act," http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN88/wn030488.html . It still can't, but Monday, the Office of the Inspector General of the the Justice Department released a 20-page report on the use of the polygraph by the Justice Department. The polygraph is used slightly less as an investigative tool (recall it failed to expose the Green River killer). But it is used increasingly to screen employees (recall it missed CIA super-mole Aldrich Ames, and has never uncovered a single spy). Meanwhile, brain research became the hottest frontier after physicists developed fMRI brain scanning, revealing what really goes on in our heads. The report never mentions all the unrefuted science showing the polygraph is worse than useless. Nor does it mention fMRI research advances. 2. DSCOVR LIVES: IT'S IN A BOX AT GODDARD SPACE FLIGHT CENTER. An article in the September issue of Seed magazine reports that the Deep Space Climate Observatory, built to measure Earth's albedo, is not entirely dead yet. It will remain in its box "until the political winds send it to its rightful place at L1." 3. GLOBAL WARMING: THE BAD NEWS IS THAT GAS PRICES ARE FALLING. Waiting for the problem to solve itself after we exhaust fossil fuel reserves has a significant downside. So who's waiting? California is suing six automakers for environmental damage from auto emissions. The British Royal Society charged that Exxon funds groups like the Competitive Enterprise Institute to spread misleading information about climate change. Sir Richard Branson says billions of dollars in his profits from Virgin companies will be invested in alternative energy, and a lot of billionaires in Forbes list of the world's richest people are investing in the same thing. Ford and Chevrolet are sinking under the weight of the SUV gas hogs they turn out (unfortunately, it's their workers who will pay the price). All this from higher gas prices? Let's shoot for $4 gas. But not everyone gets the message. A GM spokesman sought to counter California's suit by pointing out that GM is working on hydrogen-powered vehicles. Sigh! 4. APOLOGIA: TRUTH IS GOOD, BUT THE WHOLE TRUTH WOULD BE BETTER. Actually, I wasn't there. I only know what I heard on the news. People chanting "Death to the Pope!" didn't do much for their cause, whatever that is. It seems the Pope had quoted some 14th century Byzantine Emperor about the Prophet's command to spread the faith by the sword. If so, he might have added a little balance. In the 16th century, Francisco Pizarro, with the help of smallpox, conquered the Inca Empire, while Hernan Cortes, with the same ally, conquered the mighty Aztecs. They reportedly invoked the name of Santiago Matamoros ("St James the Moor- killer") as they went into battle. People did bad things. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 20:08:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8N380X3027256; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:08:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8N37wVl027230; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:07:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:07:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002101c6debd$6fcdeeb0$0100007f@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: On the magnetization of Water Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 22:07:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C6DE93.6DB82020"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <5nbKxC.A.apG.OUKFFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70787 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C6DE93.6DB82020 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001E_01C6DE93.6DB9A6C0" ------=_NextPart_001_001E_01C6DE93.6DB9A6C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank--- Robin=20 > How do you intend to remove a fraction of a percent, The fractional percent is with no catalyst present (pure water) but the equilibrium level is much higher with a colloidal catalyst. > and concentrate it to HTP? That is done in a cascade. Because of the enormous density difference, only a few simple stages are needed. We hope to get to mid-grade with three stages, maybe two, and to HTP from there in one final stage, which is done immediately prior to injection so that there is almost no stored HTP.=20 Jones Howdy Vorts, I have been following this thread with much interest. Most exciting and = parallels some of our studies.. The Russian paper on magnetic treatment = of wastewater caught my attention but the HTP idea is fascinating. Now couple the small turbine attached to the 100,000 rpm generator to a = mag coupled flywheel and it's beginning to jell. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001E_01C6DE93.6DB9A6C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
--- Robin

> How do you intend to remove a fraction of a=20 percent,

The fractional percent is with no catalyst = present
(pure=20 water) but the equilibrium level is much higher
with a colloidal=20 catalyst.

> and concentrate it to HTP?

That is done in = a=20 cascade. Because of the enormous
density difference, only  a = few =20 simple stages are
needed. We hope to get to mid-grade with three=20 stages,
maybe two, and to HTP from there in one final stage,
which = is done=20 immediately prior to injection so that
there is almost no stored HTP. =

Jones
 
Howdy Vorts,
 
I have been following this thread with much interest. Most exciting = and=20 parallels some of our studies.. The Russian paper on magnetic treatment = of=20 wastewater caught my attention but the HTP idea is fascinating.
 
Now couple the small turbine attached to the 100,000 rpm generator = to a mag=20 coupled flywheel and it's beginning to jell.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001E_01C6DE93.6DB9A6C0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C6DE93.6DB82020 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001c01c6debd$5681f320$0100007f@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C6DE93.6DB82020-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 23 06:43:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8NDgnjw011532; Sat, 23 Sep 2006 06:42:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8NDgk2V011499; Sat, 23 Sep 2006 06:42:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 06:42:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=SMZqnLoc8ZAhZzrp3joWG8wkOJYHB/06em6KM+6+BSAnGikoPAaYW0n/4U5VMyy7k4F7+rmpECu1VA9foLuEeZXdwdvgtLkHqzmipeTEssIPZiG5PD8+lTHDwdTs0Xa5v/nIDOrXFS6Mejav/yFhvnHArEUopjg3udL5hnpuPtI= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 09:42:43 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70788 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Electrolyzer for Sale Status: RO X-Status: http://www.nuenergy.org/electrolyzer/rhode-brown-gas-generator.htm Built by Bruce A. Perreault to fund his radiant energy research. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 23 06:50:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8NDnr3r014924; Sat, 23 Sep 2006 06:49:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8NDnndX014888; Sat, 23 Sep 2006 06:49:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 06:49:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=U1oWeyy7n75KvXjgRmcBQiZNnuo+S1BKCvMXF4S4aVI1f7zNSrLQXLBkhDu2S/QxBPPAYOQ5C55UnSgMnHYcAf9ccs8S+GkcJ5RYYhv9wGGysvIbrN+LUBucFNjkCPoeqGiJ8VeaaEnYSskkmsi3wYxXB7xQs5ww9hgzcv8ukew= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 09:49:49 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Electrolyzer for Sale In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70789 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9/23/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > http://www.nuenergy.org/electrolyzer/rhode-brown-gas-generator.htm > > Built by Bruce A. Perreault to fund his radiant energy research. He claims 7 litre per hour of H2 O2 for 15 A @ 12 VDC. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 23 11:54:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8NIrwN9004303; Sat, 23 Sep 2006 11:53:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8NIrvlA004280; Sat, 23 Sep 2006 11:53:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 11:53:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=EyHMDlTdDZK8nNGq5sQDyFDaXKwq7GD0aLMsWLPlHjx8Vp4eYV64b5Es9Zq/GNGv; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: [Vo]: Re: On the magnetization of Water Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 13:53:58 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bcac5426bbfeee197b2b0ad0884a56dc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70790 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones! Can I communicate with you direct email? I am not a chemist and have a couple of questions on just how you are pulling the H2O2 from a solution where the H2O2 is Miscible, even though there is a Density diff of approx. 0.4 and a MM of almost 2x. Please understand my ignorance here? Analytical Chemistry is on the short end of what I 'think' I know. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 23 12:41:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8NJf2U3027608; Sat, 23 Sep 2006 12:41:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8NJf1bx027589; Sat, 23 Sep 2006 12:41:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 12:41:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=FAL9da5AQOSIMO4ugT7cBn0YdKRwjWa0hJvcGrksl4VF1YBp0QVbbP4Htub9qWDb/pQXMwN5vuXWUS8XAWGJGnRQjmN+o3yIYvNXBlCPCswzKBU+0aHYIDovsL3xIruRV0igPdArdyI5XcJ/nMoraXehIOz9ZfVG40wAZhmXjM0= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 15:41:00 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: On the magnetiztion of Water In-Reply-To: <20060922230946.49662.qmail@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060922230946.49662.qmail@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70791 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9/22/06, Jones Beene wrote: > That is done in a cascade. Because of the enormous > density difference, only a few simple stages are > needed. Which would be ideal for the Iranian centrifuges since they have only a fraction of what is required to enrich U to weapons grade. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 23 13:57:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8NKv99p030311; Sat, 23 Sep 2006 13:57:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8NKv7jS030287; Sat, 23 Sep 2006 13:57:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 13:57:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c6df52$d0fbe800$5786163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 16:56:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70792 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: California Sues Car Co.s Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 6:05 PM Subject: [Vo]: California Sues Car Co.s > SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - California on Wednesday sued six of the > world's largest automakers, including General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - > news) and Toyota Motor Corp. (7203.T), over global warming, charging > that greenhouse gases from their vehicles have caused billions of > dollars in damages. Can anyone see the parallel with "big tobacco?" Something which may or may not be as bad as some would like us to believe, and which those who sue because they "care" really are not doing anything about the problem, but profiteering from it. People like this are less than useless. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 23 17:09:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8O09XiW012439; Sat, 23 Sep 2006 17:09:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8O09VE2012408; Sat, 23 Sep 2006 17:09:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 17:09:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: On the magnetiztion of Water Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 10:09:29 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <72jbh2pg3gn83jl1chn8fnovgr1vsihbk0@4ax.com> References: <20060922230946.49662.qmail@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060922230946.49662.qmail@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 24 Sep 2006 00:09:28 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8O09Sc8012377 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70793 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:09:46 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] >> and concentrate it to HTP? > >That is done in a cascade. Because of the enormous >density difference, only a few simple stages are >needed. We hope to get to mid-grade with three stages, >maybe two, and to HTP from there in one final stage, >which is done immediately prior to injection so that >there is almost no stored HTP. [snip] Have you worked out how much energy this is going to cost? (Actually my gut feeling says probably only a fraction of an eV per molecule, if you can obtain reasonable efficiency). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 23 18:25:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8O1PAvR009071; Sat, 23 Sep 2006 18:25:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8O1P9RA009051; Sat, 23 Sep 2006 18:25:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 18:25:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=WHmuwVzn4VWN2jUi86oGkC3uGTe+FJslNnpmSZMTaUzRxVrXxfafEl2f03bZAK9B; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <28251482.1159061108022.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 21:25:07 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: California Sues Car Co.s Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c69df27bbdad70ba74552ecdbcf3f9edb4be816cac6fde6c1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.50 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70794 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: >Can anyone see the parallel with "big tobacco?" > >Something which may or may not be as bad as some would like us to believe, . . . There is no question that tobacco kills hundreds of thousands of Americans. >and which those who sue because they "care" really are not doing anything >about the problem, but profiteering from it. People like this are less than useless. Lawsuits against tobacco have been tremendously beneficial. They have stopped the industry from advertising, and from targeting children. They have cut consumption in the U.S. by about half. "People like this" save tens of thousands of lives every year, and prevent millions of cases of painful cancer & lung disease. As long as big tobacco and big oil are going to use the government and the laws to foster mass slaugter and to sell the country out to al-Qaeda, I favor using the law to go after them. Any method that works is fine with me. If some lawyers end up with billions of dollars in their pockets, that's a lot better than enriching tobacco and oil execs and bin Laden. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 24 06:45:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8ODjNGi028279; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 06:45:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8ODjJ9I028245; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 06:45:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 06:45:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000b01c6dfdf$a6b293e0$e7d7163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <28251482.1159061108022.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: California Sues Car Co.s Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 09:45:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70795 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 9:25 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: California Sues Car Co.s > There is no question that tobacco kills hundreds of thousands of > Americans. I didn't say it doesn't. Does anyone here actually read the entirety of what I post? > Lawsuits against tobacco have been tremendously beneficial. They have > stopped the industry from advertising, and from targeting children. They > have cut >consumption in the U.S. by about half. "People like this" save > tens of thousands of lives every year, and prevent millions of cases of > painful cancer & lung disease. And ignore far bigger problems which we have to deal with. It is a waste of taxpayer money. If these people care so much, let them spend their own money on this nonsense, not mine. Here in the once great Buffalo NY, kids are still getting tobacco products, in fact even more than before. There is a sort of "draw" to that which is considered the forbidden fruit. >As long as big tobacco and big oil are going to use the government and the >laws to foster mass slaugter and to sell the country out to al-Qaeda, I >favor using the >law to go after them. Any method that works is fine with >me. If some lawyers end up with billions of dollars in their pockets, >that's a lot better than enriching >tobacco and oil execs and bin Laden. So big tobacco is an ally of Osama Bin Laden? I suppose it was Marlboro that started the fires in the towers... Why not save all the taxpayer money and simply outlaw the sale to anyone who is not already a smoker? Just let the ones who already are register, and allow the sale only to them. I would think that this would appeal the the far left very much, seeing as they love to make new regulations on American freedom. Maybe the far right would also like it, perhaps thinking they are doing their Holy Duty in keeping bodies pure. I think it would be far better to spend those billions on fighting a true war on drugs, not the sorry excuse for one which we have now. ...or spend those billions to find a cure for lung cancer? Now THAT would save a hell of a lot more lives. But it wouldn't appeal to those wallowing in the cash from tobacco lawsuits. --Kyle (who does not smoke) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 24 07:20:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8OEKBEj010680; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 07:20:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8OEK9NO010664; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 07:20:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 07:20:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c6dfe4$879786f0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <28251482.1159061108022.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000b01c6dfdf$a6b293e0$e7d7163f@DFBGQZ91> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 10:19:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70796 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Tobacco compensation?? Magic cars?? Status: O X-Status: I have read that many states have used the compensation from tobacco companies not to help those with lung disease, not in anti-smoking campaigns aimed at kids, but as supplements to the general revenue, to be spent on pork-barrell business as usual. So much for public responsibility. Or take the money grab after the federal compensation for the 9/11 disaster. Big this and that make good rhetorical targets, but greed and waste sit on all our doorsteps. Only big this and that will be able to manufacture and deploy a new generation of technology. Some time ago California tried to legislate the laws of physics by demanding electric or high mileage cars. There is even a movie about the death of the electric car ignoring the state of available technology. So Toyota made long term investment in what is the correct solution, hybrid car technology, and developed the standard against which other efforts are compared. In the US, who will give up air conditioning and winter heat to get true high gas mileage? Or give up race-track acceleration in seductive TV ads? I remember cars from the '30s without air conditioning and heaters so feeble that lap robes were standard accessories. If you wanted a warm car, you bought an after-market heater which burned gasoline directly in the passenger compartment. Mike Carrell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: California Sues Car Co.s > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: ; > Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 9:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: California Sues Car Co.s > > >> There is no question that tobacco kills hundreds of thousands of >> Americans. > > I didn't say it doesn't. Does anyone here actually read the entirety of > what > I post? > >> Lawsuits against tobacco have been tremendously beneficial. They have >> stopped the industry from advertising, and from targeting children. They >> have cut >consumption in the U.S. by about half. "People like this" save >> tens of thousands of lives every year, and prevent millions of cases of >> painful cancer & lung disease. > > And ignore far bigger problems which we have to deal with. It is a waste > of > taxpayer money. If these people care so much, let them spend their own > money > on this nonsense, not mine. Here in the once great Buffalo NY, kids are > still getting tobacco products, in fact even more than before. There is a > sort of "draw" to that which is considered the forbidden fruit. > >>As long as big tobacco and big oil are going to use the government and the >>laws to foster mass slaugter and to sell the country out to al-Qaeda, I >>favor using the >law to go after them. Any method that works is fine with >>me. If some lawyers end up with billions of dollars in their pockets, >>that's a lot better than enriching >tobacco and oil execs and bin Laden. > > So big tobacco is an ally of Osama Bin Laden? I suppose it was Marlboro > that > started the fires in the towers... > > Why not save all the taxpayer money and simply outlaw the sale to anyone > who > is not already a smoker? Just let the ones who already are register, and > allow the sale only to them. I would think that this would appeal the the > far left very much, seeing as they love to make new regulations on > American > freedom. Maybe the far right would also like it, perhaps thinking they are > doing their Holy Duty in keeping bodies pure. > > I think it would be far better to spend those billions on fighting a true > war on drugs, not the sorry excuse for one which we have now. > > ...or spend those billions to find a cure for lung cancer? Now THAT would > save a hell of a lot more lives. But it wouldn't appeal to those wallowing > in the cash from tobacco lawsuits. > > --Kyle (who does not smoke) > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 24 08:50:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8OFoDOa016020; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 08:50:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8OFh57N012567; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 08:43:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 08:43:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200609241542.k8OFgrgn073483@mail1.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 10:42:53 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tobacco compensation?? Magic cars?? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_5f22f16152627add39405ab9fe29d899" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 66.168.30.131 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70797 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_5f22f16152627add39405ab9fe29d899 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Mike Carrell, > > I have read that many states have used the compensation > from tobacco companies not to help those with lung > disease, not in anti-smoking campaigns aimed at kids, > but as supplements to the general revenue, to be spent > on pork-barrell business as usual. So much for public > responsibility. Or take the money grab after the federal > compensation for the 9/11 disaster. > This is true assessment. For the state of Wisconsin, for which I have been a state employee for over twenty-five years, the huge tobacco settlement for which the state received was essentially gutted in order to pay the state's burgeoning out-of-control budget for another year. Everyone KNEW the tobacco settlement was being raided to avoid the inevitable. The legislative body was unwilling to bite the bullet and cut necessary expenses for fear of angering various constituents. In the end it only made things worse since it was the beginning of the nation's recession, which, of course, hit our state's economy just as effectively as every other state. In my +25 years of working for the state I had never seen such an abrupt, massive, and draconian layoff of experienced personnel as what eventually happened around the years of 2003 & 4, when every state agency was forced to layoff cores of highly trained employees with many years of experience under their belt because there simply was no more money to squeeze out of completely drained accounts. Suddenly, the state had to behave like a fiscally responsible corporation and pinch pennies like everyone else. Currently, the state's budget has finally been restored to a better state of fiscal health. Unfortunately, most state agencies have yet to fully recover from the devastation of lost experience. The amount of man/woman power lost is still acutely felt, including at the Department of Transportation where I'm currently employed. The irony in all of this can be described in the following true account: A good friend of mine, a graphic artist for the Department of Natural Resources (DNR), someone with many years of trained experience, was laid off during the budget crisis of 2003-4. This, of course, didn't stop the state's need to continuously update their maps and public brochures since these matters are mandated by the state to be kept up-to-date. Fortunately, the graphic artist had foreseen the writing on the wall and carefully prepared herself for a new career in the private sectors. She knew the state would still need to have the same work completed. She advertised her graphic artist services as an independent "contractor". The state hired her back as a part-time contractor because she was already trained and knew all the ropes. She ended up performing the exact same duties she had been performing when she had been employed by the state full-time. She charges FARM MORE NOW by the hour for her part! -time services than what she had been salaried for by-the-hour when she had been employed full-time at the state. The state was able to justify it because from their perspective they are still paying her less because she has been re-hired back as an independent contractor on a part-time basis. Since becoming privately employed, she has accumulated plenty of new clients from other state agencies and private enterprises. She makes more now annually than she ever did when she had been employed full-time for the DNR. Despite the fact that the costs of living can be much higher when one is privately employed she is happy in her new circumstances. She recently told me she would never go back to work "full-time" for the state. People adjust...Or at least the smart ones find a way to. She doesn't smoke either. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/OrionWorks --=_5f22f16152627add39405ab9fe29d899 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From Mike Carrell,
>
> I have read that many states have used the compensation
> from tobacco companies not to help those with lung
> disease, not in anti-smoking campaigns aimed at kids,
> but as supplements to the general revenue, to be spent
> on pork-barrell business as usual. So much for public
> responsibility. Or take the money grab after the federal
> compensation for the 9/11 disaster.
>

This is true assessment. For the state of Wisconsin, for which I have been = a state employee for over twenty-five years, the huge tobacco settlement fo= r which the state received was essentially gutted in order to pay the state= 's burgeoning out-of-control budget for another year. Everyone KNEW the tob= acco settlement was being raided to avoid the inevitable. The legislative b= ody was unwilling to bite the bullet and cut necessary expenses for fear of= angering various constituents. In the end it only made things worse since = it was the beginning of the nation's recession, which, of course, hit our s= tate's economy just as effectively as every other state.

In my +25 years of working for the state I had never seen such an abrupt, m= assive, and draconian layoff of experienced personnel as what eventually ha= ppened around the years of 2003 & 4, when every state agency was forced to = layoff cores of highly trained employees with many years of experience unde= r their belt because there simply was no more money to squeeze out of compl= etely drained accounts. Suddenly, the state had to behave like a fiscally r= esponsible corporation and pinch pennies like everyone else.

Currently, the state's budget has finally been restored to a better state o= f fiscal health. Unfortunately, most state agencies have yet to fully recov= er from the devastation of lost experience. The amount of man/woman power l= ost is still acutely felt, including at the Department of Transportation wh= ere I'm currently employed.

The irony in all of this can be described in the following true account: A = good friend of mine, a graphic artist for the Department of Natural Resourc= es (DNR), someone with many years of trained experience, was laid off durin= g the budget crisis of 2003-4. This, of course, didn't stop the state's nee= d to continuously update their maps and public brochures since these matter= s are mandated by the state to be kept up-to-date. Fortunately, the graphic= artist had foreseen the writing on the wall and carefully prepared herself= for a new career in the private sectors. She knew the state would still ne= ed to have the same work completed. She advertised her graphic artist servi= ces as an independent "contractor". The state hired her back as a part-time= contractor because she was already trained and knew all the ropes. She end= ed up performing the exact same duties she had been performing when she had= been employed by the state full-time. She charges FARM MORE NOW by the hou= r for her part-time services than what she had been salaried for by-the-hou= r when she had been employed full-time at the state. The state was able to = justify it because from their perspective they are still paying her less be= cause she has been re-hired back as an independent contractor on a part-tim= e basis.

Since becoming privately employed, she has accumulated plenty of new client= s from other state agencies and private enterprises. She makes more now ann= ually than she ever did when she had been employed full-time for the DNR. D= espite the fact that the costs of living can be much higher when one is pri= vately employed she is happy in her new circumstances. She recently told me= she would never go back to work "full-time" for the state.

People adjust...Or at least the smart ones find a way to.

She doesn't smoke either.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/OrionWorks
--=_5f22f16152627add39405ab9fe29d899-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 24 15:21:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8OML0YV027602; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 15:21:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8OMKt3W027566; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 15:20:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 15:20:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=XwTwLWR08i4rQkXD+6FW1Ab3WquOSS7nVTfsOri60Ohdyd8tfSE5jd8+KB8xb5GJ; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <21441869.1159136454343.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 18:20:54 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tobacco compensation?? Magic cars?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c0a2c7e5da4f764972584a08625bcfb953e50869f579b4432350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.50 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70798 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell writes: >I have read that many states have used the compensation from tobacco >companies not to help those with lung disease, not in anti-smoking campaigns >aimed at kids, but as supplements to the general revenue . . . That is a shame, but as long as the huge payments drive up the price of smoking the goal is accomplished. Cigarettes are now far more expensive relative to other goods than they used to be. >Some time ago California tried to legislate the laws of physics by demanding >electric or high mileage cars. There is even a movie about the death of the >electric car ignoring the state of available technology. This is contradictory. Since there were such cars, at worst California tried to legislate the laws of economics. >In the US, who will give up air conditioning and winter heat to get true >high gas mileage? The Prius has a highly efficient air conditioner that makes no measurable reduction to gas mileage. Winter heating in any car is done with waste heat from the engine so this costs nothing. In other words, with good technology you sacrifice nothing; you have your cake and eat it too. As one energy expert remarked, "compact flourescent lights are not a free lunch, they are lunch you are paid to eat." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 24 18:41:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8P1ejHL004596; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 18:40:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8P1eiV7004578; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 18:40:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 18:40:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200609250140.k8P1eg0r060723@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 20:40:40 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_9a3d99fcfec27eed4fe87559972b08e4" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 66.168.30.131 Resent-Message-ID: <3tUPjC.A.RHB.aOzFFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70799 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: --=_9a3d99fcfec27eed4fe87559972b08e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are there any mad scientists within the Vortex group that might be willing to stick their neck out and make a reasonably accurate prediction what would happen if the following device was built. BTW, I don't perceive it as being impossible to build this device either: Create a doughnut shape ring consisting of extremely thin lattices of flat disk-like material (much thinner than paper) that circumnavigate the entire 360-degree "ring" circumference. These pancake-like disks would consist of two different compositions of materials, placed alternately between each other. The composition of the first kind of material, what I'll call the "ionic composition" possesses the ability to collect and store an extremely large collection of electrons within its internal matrix. The second material, which I'll call the "insulator composition", works as an extremely effective insulator, effectively barring any collection of free electrons that might accumulate within the "ionic composition" disks from jumping between each other. Just to be clear here, I'm speaking of a doughnut shaped ring consisting of a stacked lattice of two kinds of extremely thin disk material circumnavigating the entire 360 degree circumference of the doughnut shaped ring. Design the doughnut shaped ring so that each of the "ionic" disks are connected to microscopic electrical leads that radiate inward, like the wire spokes belonging to a bicycle wheel. All the electrical leads are connected to a central axis. Visually speaking, we would have a doughnut shaped ring consisting of a lattice composition of two materials that, in turn, would be held together (supported) by a central axis. Said differently, visualize a spinning top (the doughnut shaped ring) with a central axis running out of each end. Next, place this doughnut shaped "top" between two very powerful cylindrically-shaped Permanent Magnets that had been manufactured with a hole running through their center. (Cylindrically-shaped Magnets with holes running through their center are commonly manufactured.) The hole in the center of both permanent magnets would be where the axis of specially manufactured "top" would run through. ...Does anyone see where I might be going with this scenario? Now, employing the assistance of an experienced mechanical engineer design an armature that would hold both the doughnut shaped "top" and two cylindrically-shaped magnets in one place, so that the "top" can spin freely within the two permanent magnets with as little friction as possible. And now, the final step: Again, employing the assistance of a very experienced mechanical engineer and/or electrical engineer devise a way to connect the central axis to a charging apparatus so that we can charge the thin pancake lattice layers of "ionic" disks with a massive flux of electrons, and all the while allowing our doughnut shaped top to spin freely should it choose to do so. Ok, now, all you mad scientists lurking out in vortex land, what happens to the doughnut shaped ring? Will it remain stationary, or will it possibly begin to spin. Conventionally speaking, I realize electricity is generated by dynamically passing a wire THROUGH a magnetic field. Electricity only appears to flow when you actively move the wire through the magnetic flux lines. We all know that's exactly how conventional electric generators "generate" the electricity we use to run our world. I realize there may be some on-going debate concerning the finer points of the next statement I'm about to make, but it is my understanding that that electricity generally ceases to flow almost "instantaneously" once the wire ceases to move through the magnetic flux lines. Again, I realize there is some debate about this matter, but that's besides the point. Here's my conundrum: How do individual free-wheeling electrons behave when placed within a magnetic field? According to my conventional understanding of particle physics, a fog chamber clearly shows charged particles, particularly electrons, SPIRALING in step with any magnetic field that they might be immersed within. The question I keep asking myself is: Are these electrons "spiraling" because they are already moving THROUGH the magnetic flux lines (akin to the phenomenon we call electricity), or would stationary free floating electrons automatically begin to pick up speed (accelerate) from a stationary position and begin to "spiral" in sync with the magnetic flux lines they are immersed within. If there might be some element of truth to the latter premise, what would happen if you have a doughnut shaped ring charged with zillions and bazillions of extra free-wheeling electrons (which, BTW, includes all of their accumulated additional electron mass), all trapped within a series of these "ionic" lattices, where these free electrons are also physically being prevented from performing their "spiral-like" dances, jumping from individual "ionic" lattices to "ionic" lattice, trying to conform to the magnetic lines of flux. IOW, what would the accumulated mass of all those free-floating electrons be trying to do if they were all ALSO deeply immersed within the strong magnetic field of the two permanent magnets situated above and below our doughnut shaped "top"? Conventional physics would seem to suggest to me that those free electrons would try to continuously move (spiral around) in the direction of the magnetic flux lines as determined by the north/south polarity of the ! permanent magnets. But if the accumulated masses of all these free-wheeling electrons are constantly "bumping" against the "barrier" (the lattices of insulation) couldn't this possibly generate a distinct and continuous measurable Newton-like action-reaction measurement, the equivalent of a torque force. Could we possibly create a distinct and continuously "spinning" torque force measurable on a macro scale within the entire doughnut ring assembly? Assuming we could get the friction of our doughnut shaped "top" down to a bare minimum, could we possibly create a situation where our "top" might actually begin to physically spin, seemingly drawing it's energy continuously from the magnetic flux lines emanating from the two permanent magnets situated above and below? I don't know how many "free" electrons we might need. Probably an unbelievably massive number of the little critters. I don't know how strong the torque measurement might turn out to be either. Never the less, it almost sounds to me like we might be able to demonstrate on the macro scale the equivalent of what I believe Jones Beene once described within vortex as a "spinner", a spinning device that clearly demonstrates continuous "free" motion, and the controversial phenomenon labeled: Over Unity. Ok, here's another thought: What if we made our lattice "ring" out of one of the recently discovered superconducting materials that, in turn, are sandwiched between lattices of our special insulation material. Now super-cool the latticed ring with liquid nitrogen, find a way to super charge the superconductive material (Yeah, I know, pick the brains of a good electrical engineer!) and finally place the ring above a powerful permanent magnet. Is there any possibility that our special super cooled ring of latticed material might begin to physically spin? Alas, the fuddy-duddy skeptic within me would say: No Charley, it won't spin - Game Over. But I really dunno fer sure. Is any of this theoretically possible, or have I mangled my understanding of the free wheeling behavior of free electrons? Signed: Puzzled Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/OrionWorks --=_9a3d99fcfec27eed4fe87559972b08e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Are there any mad scientists within the Vortex group that might be willing = to stick their neck out and make a reasonably accurate prediction what woul= d happen if the following device was built. BTW, I don't perceive it as bei= ng impossible to build this device either:

Create a doughnut shape ring consisting of extremely thin lattices of flat = disk-like material (much thinner than paper) that circumnavigate the entire= 360-degree "ring" circumference. These pancake-like disks would consist of= two different compositions of materials, placed alternately between each o= ther.

The composition of the first kind of material, what I'll call the "ionic co= mposition" possesses the ability to collect and store an extremely large co= llection of electrons within its internal matrix. The second material, whic= h I'll call the "insulator composition", works as an extremely effective in= sulator, effectively barring any collection of free electrons that might ac= cumulate within the "ionic composition" disks from jumping between each oth= er.

Just to be clear here, I'm speaking of a doughnut shaped ring consisting of= a stacked lattice of two kinds of extremely thin disk material circumnavig= ating the entire 360 degree circumference of the doughnut shaped ring.

Design the doughnut shaped ring so that each of the "ionic" disks are conne= cted to microscopic electrical leads that radiate inward, like the wire spo= kes belonging to a bicycle wheel. All the electrical leads are connected to= a central axis. Visually speaking, we would have a doughnut shaped ring co= nsisting of a lattice composition of two materials that, in turn, would be = held together (supported) by a central axis. Said differently, visualize a = spinning top (the doughnut shaped ring) with a central axis running out of = each end.

Next, place this doughnut shaped "top" between two very powerful cylindrica= lly-shaped Permanent Magnets that had been manufactured with a hole running= through their center. (Cylindrically-shaped Magnets with holes running thr= ough their center are commonly manufactured.) The hole in the center of bot= h permanent magnets would be where the axis of specially manufactured "top"= would run through.

...Does anyone see where I might be going with this scenario?

Now, employing the assistance of an experienced mechanical engineer design = an armature that would hold both the doughnut shaped "top" and two cylindri= cally-shaped magnets in one place, so that the "top" can spin freely within= the two permanent magnets with as little friction as possible.

And now, the final step: Again, employing the assistance of a very experien= ced mechanical engineer and/or electrical engineer devise a way to connect = the central axis to a charging apparatus so that we can charge the thin pan= cake lattice layers of "ionic" disks with a massive flux of electrons, and = all the while allowing our doughnut shaped top to spin freely should it cho= ose to do so.

Ok, now, all you mad scientists lurking out in vortex land, what happens to= the doughnut shaped ring? Will it remain stationary, or will it possibly b= egin to spin.

Conventionally speaking, I realize electricity is generated by dynamically = passing a wire THROUGH a magnetic field. Electricity only appears to flow w= hen you actively move the wire through the magnetic flux lines. We all know= that's exactly how conventional electric generators "generate" the electri= city we use to run our world. I realize there may be some on-going debate c= oncerning the finer points of the next statement I'm about to make, but it = is my understanding that that electricity generally ceases to flow almost "= instantaneously" once the wire ceases to move through the magnetic flux lin= es. Again, I realize there is some debate about this matter, but that's bes= ides the point.

Here's my conundrum: How do individual free-wheeling electrons behave when = placed within a magnetic field? According to my conventional understanding = of particle physics, a fog chamber clearly shows charged particles, particu= larly electrons, SPIRALING in step with any magnetic field that they might = be immersed within. The question I keep asking myself is: Are these electro= ns "spiraling" because they are already moving THROUGH the magnetic flux li= nes (akin to the phenomenon we call electricity), or would stationary free = floating electrons automatically begin to pick up speed (accelerate) from a= stationary position and begin to "spiral" in sync with the magnetic flux l= ines they are immersed within.

If there might be some element of truth to the latter premise, what would h= appen if you have a doughnut shaped ring charged with zillions and bazillio= ns of extra free-wheeling electrons (which, BTW, includes all of their accu= mulated additional electron mass), all trapped within a series of these "io= nic" lattices, where these free electrons are also physically being prevent= ed from performing their "spiral-like" dances, jumping from individual "ion= ic" lattices to "ionic" lattice, trying to conform to the magnetic lines of= flux. IOW, what would the accumulated mass of all those free-floating elec= trons be trying to do if they were all ALSO deeply immersed within the stro= ng magnetic field of the two permanent magnets situated above and below our= doughnut shaped "top"? Conventional physics would seem to suggest to me th= at those free electrons would try to continuously move (spiral around) in t= he direction of the magnetic flux lines as determined by the north/south po= larity of the permanent magnets. But if the accumulated masses of all these= free-wheeling electrons are constantly "bumping" against the "barrier" (th= e lattices of insulation) couldn't this possibly generate a distinct and co= ntinuous measurable Newton-like action-reaction measurement, the equivalent= of a torque force. Could we possibly create a distinct and continuously "s= pinning" torque force measurable on a macro scale within the entire doughnu= t ring assembly? Assuming we could get the friction of our doughnut shaped = "top" down to a bare minimum, could we possibly create a situation where ou= r "top" might actually begin to physically spin, seemingly drawing it's ene= rgy continuously from the magnetic flux lines emanating from the two perman= ent magnets situated above and below?

I don't know how many "free" electrons we might need. Probably an unbelieva= bly massive number of the little critters. I don't know how strong the torq= ue measurement might turn out to be either. Never the less, it almost sound= s to me like we might be able to demonstrate on the macro scale the equival= ent of what I believe Jones Beene once described within vortex as a "spinne= r", a spinning device that clearly demonstrates continuous "free" motion, a= nd the controversial phenomenon labeled: Over Unity.

Ok, here's another thought: What if we made our lattice "ring" out of one o= f the recently discovered superconducting materials that, in turn, are sand= wiched between lattices of our special insulation material. Now super-cool = the latticed ring with liquid nitrogen, find a way to super charge the supe= rconductive material (Yeah, I know, pick the brains of a good electrical en= gineer!) and finally place the ring above a powerful permanent magnet. Is t= here any possibility that our special super cooled ring of latticed materia= l might begin to physically spin? Alas, the fuddy-duddy skeptic within me w= ould say: No Charley, it won't spin - Game Over. But I really dunno fer sur= e.

Is any of this theoretically possible, or have I mangled my understanding o= f the free wheeling behavior of free electrons?

Signed: Puzzled

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/OrionWorks
--=_9a3d99fcfec27eed4fe87559972b08e4-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 24 19:14:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8P2EDUa017814; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 19:14:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8P2EBDS017787; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 19:14:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 19:14:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=i9kW+Ts+e4ofeSjrhKWEchnsxrzqT4lis9weCUgipl9Yb/1TFBkQ6IwOl6yUZBouTJC8EUHMxS8TxqbGV48mXHGn2TcyiPGmnIyEs7Az4KJRTPfm+3rZ3BDPxjaxzlJ7vzoEwKwFZ0NxN1wEEhk8maB8S84GRt5Vn8vVbx8idcU= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 22:14:09 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: John Herman, EMdrive In-Reply-To: <006f01c6db07$4e82d950$6b00a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <006f01c6db07$4e82d950$6b00a8c0@RCORNWALL> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70800 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: More on the EM Drive: http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/av/shawyertheory.pdf From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 24 19:41:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8P2fWkO029891; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 19:41:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8P2fUoR029872; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 19:41:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 19:41:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:41:25 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <200609250140.k8P1eg0r060723@mail2.mx.voyager.net> In-Reply-To: <200609250140.k8P1eg0r060723@mail2.mx.voyager.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 25 Sep 2006 02:41:25 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8P2fR5p029845 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70801 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to OrionWorks's message of Sun, 24 Sep 2006 20:40:40 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Here's my conundrum: How do individual free-wheeling electrons behave when placed within a magnetic field? According to my conventional understanding of particle physics, a fog chamber clearly shows charged particles, particularly electrons, SPIRALING in step with any magnetic field that they might be immersed within. The question I keep asking myself is: Are these electrons "spiraling" because they are already moving THROUGH the magnetic flux lines (akin to the phenomenon we call electricity), or would stationary free floating electrons automatically begin to pick up speed (accelerate) from a stationary position and begin to "spiral" in sync with the magnetic flux lines they are immersed within. [snip] If the latter were true, then since any metal contains many free electrons, one might expect them to start "spiraling" as long as the metal is in a magnetic field. However this is not observed, otherwise, the metal would eventually get red hot and melt. What does happen is that as long as the metal is *forced to move* within the field, then eddy currents will circulate within the metal heating it up, but the energy for this comes from the force which is creating the motion (or from initial kinetic energy if the metal just entered the field). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 24 22:47:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8P5lFgN001917; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 22:47:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8P5lCl3001874; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 22:47:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 22:47:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 23:45:25 -0600 Message-ID: <004901c6e065$ffa85b20$0302a8c0@DONWDESKTOP> From: "Don Wiegel" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: "Don Wiegel" References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> <450CFEE5.2000203@iinet.net.au> <4513DFFA.2070803@iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0046_01C6E033.81DE6EF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70802 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C6E033.81DE6EF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A Theory of Microwave Propulsion for Spacecraft=20 Roger Shawyer C.Eng MIEE=20 SPR Ltd=20 www.emdrive.com=20 http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/av/shawyertheory.pdf ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Berry=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor I meant to expand on my hose analogy. I was likening the impulse of the arc and aether flow to a hose being = turned on because I heard once that droplets of water are found to orbit = water coming out of a nosle at high speed.=20 And this is exactly what I believe the aether is doing and furthermore = while I am not sure exactly how, I wonder if the reason the droplets do = that is because of a 90 degree aether flow. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C6E033.81DE6EF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A Theory of Microwave Propulsion for Spacecraft

Roger Shawyer C.Eng MIEE

SPR Ltd

www.emdrive.com

= http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/av/shawyertheory.pdf
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John = Berry=20
Sent: Friday, September 22, = 2006 2:31=20 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary = emdrive-=20 inertial anchor

I meant to expand on my hose analogy.
I was likening = the=20 impulse of the arc and aether flow to a hose being turned on because I = heard=20 once that droplets of water are found to orbit water coming out of a = nosle at=20 high speed.

And this is exactly what I believe the aether is = doing and=20 furthermore while I am not sure exactly how, I wonder if the reason = the=20 droplets do that is because of a 90 degree aether=20 flow. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C6E033.81DE6EF0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 00:00:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8P704xQ008796; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 00:00:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8P6rgED002785; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 23:53:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 23:53:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45177CCA.9090008@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 01:52:58 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70804 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: faster than light speeds Status: O X-Status: I've heard Tom Van Flandern discuss his exploding planet theory several times. I came across his article about Lorenzian relativity which allows for FTL speeds. http://www.metaresearch.org/cosmology/gravity/LR.asp --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 07:10:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8PEAFMj012542; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 07:10:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8PEACV2012517; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 07:10:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 07:10:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001a01c6e0ac$41fbb710$0100007f@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re:Orion's Dunkin Donut Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:09:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C6E082.413C29B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70805 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C6E082.413C29B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0017_01C6E082.413C29B0" ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C6E082.413C29B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Steven Johnson wrote.. Ok, now, all you mad scientists lurking out in vortex land, what happens = to the doughnut shaped ring? Will it remain stationary, or will it = possibly begin to spin. Howdy Steven, Remains stationary. Visualize two fields. Each field is vortex shaped = like a spinning top. The base of the two tops connected at their base. = Use a mind picture of the actual fields within a donut shaped magnet to = understand the fields are rotating in opposite directions similar to = earth's magnetis fields. That's what keeps a single donut shaped magnet = from flying off into the sunset and our feet of the ground.... err.. = well.. that is.. unless one has an extremely vivid imagination brought = about by inhaling certain types of hemp pollen. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C6E082.413C29B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
Steven Johnson wrote..
 
Ok, now, all you mad scientists lurking out in vortex land, what = happens to=20 the doughnut shaped ring? Will it remain stationary, or will it possibly = begin=20 to spin.
 
Howdy Steven,
 
Remains stationary. Visualize two fields. Each field is vortex = shaped like=20 a spinning top. The base of the two tops connected at their base. Use a = mind=20 picture of the actual fields within a donut shaped magnet to understand = the=20 fields are rotating in opposite directions similar to earth's magnetis = fields.=20 That's what keeps a single donut shaped magnet from flying off into the = sunset=20 and our feet of the ground....  err.. well.. that is.. unless one = has an=20 extremely vivid imagination brought about by inhaling certain types of = hemp=20 pollen.<grin>
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C6E082.413C29B0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C6E082.413C29B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001501c6e0ac$2a0909f0$0100007f@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C6E082.413C29B0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 24 23:04:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8P64N14008811; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 23:04:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8P64L2H008788; Sun, 24 Sep 2006 23:04:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 23:04:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=v3ouiB3KzVwD0S3/i4+qw8LOre1Y2pqUTwe6jSZi3A9d00+VbhalrdOoi97wH7APOKdRMxymGU49D9szhhu3bniH8czut2b1qceOPrAMvpnKX3xBQYTgG3T0nWQT0onaYm+GgrPrdxFOFvqEF2K++1wIwx0tI4hZZx7iu4OI78I= ; Message-ID: <063a01c6e068$26f37d70$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <200609140221.k8E2L1it055834@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <000901c6d924$c95fb2e0$3d97163f@DFBGQZ91> <000701c6d995$0927b6f0$9e90163f@DFBGQZ91> <450CFEE5.2000203@iinet.net.au> <4513DFFA.2070803@iinet.net.au> <004901c6e065$ffa85b20$0302a8c0@DONWDESKTOP> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 02:02:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0637_01C6E046.9F78E270" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70803 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0637_01C6E046.9F78E270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Terry and Don, Experimental summary on page 13 No obvious artefacts.=20 Anyone? Cheers, Colin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Don Wiegel=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 1:45 AM Subject: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor A Theory of Microwave Propulsion for Spacecraft=20 Roger Shawyer C.Eng MIEE=20 SPR Ltd=20 www.emdrive.com=20 http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/av/shawyertheory.pdf ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Berry=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor I meant to expand on my hose analogy. I was likening the impulse of the arc and aether flow to a hose = being turned on because I heard once that droplets of water are found to = orbit water coming out of a nosle at high speed.=20 And this is exactly what I believe the aether is doing and = furthermore while I am not sure exactly how, I wonder if the reason the = droplets do that is because of a 90 degree aether flow. ------=_NextPart_000_0637_01C6E046.9F78E270 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Terry and Don,
 
Experimental summary on page = 13
No obvious artefacts. =
 
Anyone?
 
Cheers,
Colin
 
 
 ----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Don = Wiegel=20
Sent: Monday, September 25, = 2006 1:45=20 AM
Subject: [Vo]: stationary = emdrive-=20 inertial anchor

A Theory of Microwave Propulsion for Spacecraft

Roger Shawyer C.Eng MIEE

SPR Ltd

www.emdrive.com =

= http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/av/shawyertheory.pdf
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John Berry=20
Sent: Friday, September 22, = 2006 2:31=20 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary = emdrive-=20 inertial anchor

I meant to expand on my hose analogy.
I was = likening the=20 impulse of the arc and aether flow to a hose being turned on because = I heard=20 once that droplets of water are found to orbit water coming out of a = nosle=20 at high speed.

And this is exactly what I believe the aether = is=20 doing and furthermore while I am not sure exactly how, I wonder if = the=20 reason the droplets do that is because of a 90 degree aether=20 flow.
------=_NextPart_000_0637_01C6E046.9F78E270-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 08:42:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8PFgVUG005044; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 08:42:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8PFgTLK005021; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 08:42:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 08:42:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=gXBi0GowvonluwrxId76xLFHNbH0j14RwbI5MHANO82cl+NiiJxHEtEBr8VTwpHoYUHj0BjH1iRNFMSs53B2Mmp0ezPbAae3IBZEEv/pDw08QfRZocMs4DV1CqlUBIjHinkmlI8iEUj3ch8ouhqlLpLYE2jPWJt4Pr00pXn8IgA= ; Message-ID: <000e01c6e0b5$fa1154a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 08:19:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70806 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: I Think that I will never see... Status: RO X-Status: ... a poem as lovely as a diesel tree (apologies to J. Kilmer): http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Farmer-planning-diesel-tree-biofuel/2006/09/19/1158431695812.html ... future home-grown "poetic justice" for OPEC and big-oil ? >From Sydney, Oz: "The tropical trees, which have the botanic name 'copaifera langsdorfii,' produce a biofuel that can be tapped, filtered and used to power machinery such as tractors." "It is estimated a one hectare plantation could produce 12,000 litres of fuel a year - enough to make a small farm fuel self-sufficient." Unfortunately, it seems that this kind of estimate is often for the "best year" and not an "average year" ... and who knows how the diesel tree would pan out over the long haul in the southern USA, but with "red diesel" now pushing $2 gallon, and few farmers netting the equivalent of $2,500 per acre (unless the crop is addictive like tobacco) ... ... well, as Fred observes (being from Pa. farm country) most farmers would "spend a dollar to save a dime" ... and not just Amish farmers ... consequently - all one needs to do is make the diesel tree frost-tolerant, and you will see an explosion of acreage devoted to them. And ever partial solution to the fuel crisis is helpful. Wonder if the understaffed crew at NREL (thanks to Bush's budget cuts for renewables) is trying to hybridize a frost-tolerant version? BTW, for comparison, the heavily-farmed (northern USA) sugar maple is said to give only 80 liters per acre-year, so one can appreciate how productive the diesel tree could be comparatively - at least in certain areas. But to be realistic - hybridizing for frost-tolerance would probably lower the yield significantly. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 09:30:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8PGU1k5030857; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:30:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8PGOghd028122; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:24:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:24:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,215,1157342400"; d="scan'208"; a="767281045:sNHT534893944" Message-ID: <645302439.1159201466667.JavaMail.root@fepweb06> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 9:24:26 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Re:Orion's Dunkin Donut MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8PGOX5Z028068 Resent-Message-ID: <-NNG8B.A.S3G.ILAGFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70807 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard wrote: >> From OrionWorks: >> >> Ok, now, all you mad scientists lurking out in vortex land, what happens >> to the doughnut shaped ring? Will it remain stationary, or will it >> possibly begin to spin. > Howdy Steven, > > Remains stationary. Visualize two fields. Each field is vortex shaped > like a spinning top. The base of the two tops connected at their base. > Use a mind picture of the actual fields within a donut shaped magnet > to understand the fields are rotating in opposite directions similar > to earth's magnetis fields. That's what keeps a single donut shaped > magnet from flying off into the sunset and our feet of the ground.... > err.. well.. that is.. unless one has an extremely vivid imagination > brought about by inhaling certain types of hemp pollen. > > Richard Howdy back, Richard. The Vortex mailing list rudely striped away the subject field of my original post, which was supposed to have stated: "A Spinning Doughnut for Your Thoughts?", However, a "Dunkin Donut" works just fine by me as well! ;-) I really ought to build a 3D rapid prototype model of what it is that I'm trying to visualize here using RHINO 3D, and then post a link to it -- HAH! IF I could only find the time to do this. I'm not sure my description was fully understood. You state: "Visual two fields." Two fields? I only visual a single field where the magnetic flux lines are "traveling" between the two cylindrical magnets in parallel lines. Here's a crude graphic representation of what it is that I'm trying to build. Make sure you look at this diagram in plain text mode: || <-------- Central turning axis of donut. || ***** || ***** * N * || * N * * * || * * * * || * * <- Cylinder Permanent Magnet * * || * * with hole through center * S * || * S * ***** || ***** ---- || ---- | | /\ | | |- |== ==| -| <= Negatively charged "donut ring" | | \/ | | ---- || ---- ***** || ***** * N * || * N * * * || * * <- Cylinder Permanent Magnet * * || * * with hole through center * * || * * * S * || * S * ***** || ***** || || <-------- Central turning axis of donut. Please note that this DIAGRAM is a CROSS SECTION. While it might look like there are four independent "bar" magnets. In truth there are only two where we have -sliced- through the upper and lower cylinder magnets. Likewise we have sliced through the negatively charged "dunkin donut!" Granted this diagram depicts a static magnetic field, but there is only one magnetic field where the flux lines are essentially running parallel between the two cylinder permanent magnets. The skeptical side of me suspects that since the flux lines are essentially static, as well as the charged donut the contraption will NOT begin to spin even though it is immersed within a strong magnetic field which ought to make the ALL the additionally charged "free" electrons want to spiral in a particular direction. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks FYI: Again, here is the text of my original post: Are there any mad scientists within the Vortex group that might be willing to stick their neck out and make a reasonably accurate prediction what would happen if the following device was built. BTW, I don't perceive it as being impossible to build this device either: Create a doughnut shape ring consisting of extremely thin lattices of flat disk-like material (much thinner than paper) that circumnavigate the entire 360-degree "ring" circumference. These pancake-like disks would consist of two different compositions of materials, placed alternately between each other. The composition of the first kind of material, what I'll call the "ionic composition" possesses the ability to collect and store an extremely large collection of electrons within its internal matrix. The second material, which I'll call the "insulator composition", works as an extremely effective insulator, effectively barring any collection of free electrons that might accumulate within the "ionic composition" disks from jumping between each other. Just to be clear here, I'm speaking of a doughnut shaped ring consisting of a stacked lattice of two kinds of extremely thin disk material circumnavigating the entire 360 degree circumference of the doughnut shaped ring. Design the doughnut shaped ring so that each of the "ionic" disks are connected to microscopic electrical leads that radiate inward, like the wire spokes belonging to a bicycle wheel. All the electrical leads are connected to a central axis. Visually speaking, we would have a doughnut shaped ring consisting of a lattice composition of two materials that, in turn, would be held together (supported) by a central axis. Said differently, visualize a spinning top (the doughnut shaped ring) with a central axis running out of each end. Next, place this doughnut shaped "top" between two very powerful cylindrically-shaped Permanent Magnets that had been manufactured with a hole running through their center. (Cylindrically-shaped Magnets with holes running through their center are commonly manufactured.) The hole in the center of both permanent magnets would be where the axis of specially manufactured "top" would run through. ...Does anyone see where I might be going with this scenario? Now, employing the assistance of an experienced mechanical engineer design an armature that would hold both the doughnut shaped "top" and two cylindrically-shaped magnets in one place, so that the "top" can spin freely within the two permanent magnets with as little friction as possible. And now, the final step: Again, employing the assistance of a very experienced mechanical engineer and/or electrical engineer devise a way to connect the central axis to a charging apparatus so that we can charge the thin pancake lattice layers of "ionic" disks with a massive flux of electrons, and all the while allowing our doughnut shaped top to spin freely should it choose to do so. Ok, now, all you mad scientists lurking out in vortex land, what happens to the doughnut shaped ring? Will it remain stationary, or will it possibly begin to spin. Conventionally speaking, I realize electricity is generated by dynamically passing a wire THROUGH a magnetic field. Electricity only appears to flow when you actively move the wire through the magnetic flux lines. We all know that's exactly how conventional electric generators "generate" the electricity we use to run our world. I realize there may be some on-going debate concerning the finer points of the next statement I'm about to make, but it is my understanding that that electricity generally ceases to flow almost "instantaneously" once the wire ceases to move through the magnetic flux lines. Again, I realize there is some debate about this matter, but that's besides the point. Here's my conundrum: How do individual free-wheeling electrons behave when placed within a magnetic field? According to my conventional understanding of particle physics, a fog chamber clearly shows charged particles, particularly electrons, SPIRALING in step with any magnetic field that they might be immersed within. The question I keep asking myself is: Are these electrons "spiraling" because they are already moving THROUGH the magnetic flux lines (akin to the phenomenon we call electricity), or would stationary free floating electrons automatically begin to pick up speed (accelerate) from a stationary position and begin to "spiral" in sync with the magnetic flux lines they are immersed within. If there might be some element of truth to the latter premise, what would happen if you have a doughnut shaped ring charged with zillions and bazillions of extra free-wheeling electrons (which, BTW, includes all of their accumulated additional electron mass), all trapped within a series of these "ionic" lattices, where these free electrons are also physically being prevented from performing their "spiral-like" dances, jumping from individual "ionic" lattices to "ionic" lattice, trying to conform to the magnetic lines of flux. IOW, what would the accumulated mass of all those free-floating electrons be trying to do if they were all ALSO deeply immersed within the strong magnetic field of the two permanent magnets situated above and below our doughnut shaped "top"? Conventional physics would seem to suggest to me that those free electrons would try to continuously move (spiral around) in the direction of the magnetic flux lines as determined by the north/south polarity of the permanent magnets. But if the accumulated masses of all these free-wheeling electrons are constantly "bumping" against the "barrier" (the lattices of insulation) couldn't this possibly generate a distinct and continuous measurable Newton-like action-reaction measurement, the equivalent of a torque force. Could we possibly create a distinct and continuously "spinning" torque force measurable on a macro scale within the entire doughnut ring assembly? Assuming we could get the friction of our doughnut shaped "top" down to a bare minimum, could we possibly create a situation where our "top" might actually begin to physically spin, seemingly drawing it's energy continuously from the magnetic flux lines emanating from the two permanent magnets situated above and below? I don't know how many "free" electrons we might need. Probably an unbelievably massive number of the little critters. I don't know how strong the torque measurement might turn out to be either. Never the less, it almost sounds to me like we might be able to demonstrate on the macro scale the equivalent of what I believe Jones Beene once described within vortex as a "spinner", a spinning device that clearly demonstrates continuous "free" motion, and the controversial phenomenon labeled: Over Unity. Ok, here's another thought: What if we made our lattice "ring" out of one of the recently discovered superconducting materials that, in turn, are sandwiched between lattices of our special insulation material. Now super-cool the latticed ring with liquid nitrogen, find a way to super charge the superconductive material (Yeah, I know, pick the brains of a good electrical engineer!) and finally place the ring above a powerful permanent magnet. Is there any possibility that our special super cooled ring of latticed material might begin to physically spin? Alas, the fuddy-duddy skeptic within me would say: No Charley, it won't spin - Game Over. But I really dunno fer sure. Is any of this theoretically possible, or have I mangled my understanding of the free wheeling behavior of free electrons? Signed: Puzzled Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/OrionWorks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 09:45:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8PGjLYW006826; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:45:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8PGjJsi006803; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:45:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:45:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=DOBSKD7s0+kmYQLKlJjmz9okfaUl7rFZZlUwUrpCAAjcxM8KM5Sl+tFss8CC8WntXAthr7+K9QywqNjI7ti4pmock49XltNgo0hGUuRHW6n4Em3BaBRqrdWbC2JTTQfrfZKIAdSQ4ILSU/kBZ7arTb/49WQVhQEZmqZSLnPK0zw= ; Message-ID: <003301c6e0c1$fc42bd20$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <000e01c6e0b5$fa1154a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:45:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70809 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: I Think that I will never see... Status: O X-Status: Second thought about hybridizing the diesel tree (in the era of genertic engineering)... Wouldn't the ideal solution be a "diesel grass" instead of a diesel tree? i.e. a "mowable" but high-yield grass or cane, which can be cut - and the sap filtered for diesel fuel - following which - in a second step, the remainder cellulose is fermented and converted to ethanol. Tapping trees for fuel [as is done for rubber] is labor intensive and not easily mechanized. Mowing is so simple that it is even amenable to robotics - eventually. Plus genetically engineering a species for frost-tolerance, that is: just for the roots - is probably easier than for the entire exposed tree (this is a guess). Is that doable? Imagine a species of bamboo, or sugar cane, which is crossed with the diesel tree by genetic engineering. On the farm or plantation, this cane is grown all summer and cut at the start of winter, and converted to fuel. A portion of the mixed fuel is diesel and the rest is ethanol and mixed esters made from fermenting the cellulose, and then by enriching the ethanol content of the fermented mash without distillation. The roots survive yhe winter so that replanting the cane in the Spring is avoided. Since diesel fuel and ethanol are not only compatible, but mutually beneficial [i.e. the diesel component provides the lubrication capability, which is absent in ethanol, while the ethanol lowers the compression-pressure needed for ignition] - this seems to be a match made in biofuel heaven. Especially if and when the distillation-free ethanol enrichment techniques are perfected (soon) for that component of the scheme. Actually the oldest of all distillation-free enrichment processes was used by the early settlers for "hard cider" made from apples. In winter, ice is removed from a barrel of fermented apple mash, resulting in a more potent "biofuel" and one fit for human consumption. BTW - to the cynics amongst us - isn't it a bit curious that the price of oil in the USA has been falling in the past few weeks - somewhat in timing with the recent announcements about biofuels (Cilion/Virgin) and the other promising biofuels announcements. Coincidental ? Probably coincidental this time, but shouldn't we keep it that way? It would surprise no one to learn that gasoline prices can be manipulated to squelch competetion - and that is why we need a substantial tax on petroleum which does not go to governement - but instead goes directly to alternative fuel producers. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 09:50:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8PGo4Xt010004; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:50:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8PGfBYo004663; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:41:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:41:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <4518047E.61BD53C1@centurytel.net> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 16:31:58 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45177CCA.9090008@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xm" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70808 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote on 9-25-06: Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: faster than light speeds I've heard Tom Van Flandern discuss his exploding planet theory several times. I came across his article about Lorenzian relativity which allows for FTL speeds. http://www.metaresearch.org/cosmology/gravity/LR.asp ---------------------- Hi All, Below are some excerpts from the above reference and from an article by Thomas Phipps. Jack Smith ------------------------ ``Is faster-than-light propagation allowed by the laws of physics" (a primer on Lorentzian relativity) Tom Van Flandern Meta Research / tomvf@metaresearch.org Abstract. As the relativity of motion is taught today, Einstein"s special relativity has been observationally confirmed so often that there is no longer reason to doubt it. However, the chief competitor theory known as Lorentzian relativity has passed those same observational tests. Whether surpassing the speed of light in classical physics will be routinely possible or not depends critically on which of these models is correct. Recent experimental evidence for faster-than-light force propagation is fully consistent with Lorentzian relativity, but is a test that special relativity cannot pass ... SR differs from LR by having two very general postulates. This first postulate of SR makes the Lorentz transformations reciprocal in that theory; i.e., they work equally well from any inertial frame to any other, and back again. So it has no meaning to ask which of two identical clocks in different frames is ticking slower in any absolute sense. The speed of light is independent of the speed of its source, as is generally true for waves in any medium. But the second postulate of SR makes the speed of light also independent of the speed of the observer, a feature unique to SR. In LR, neither inertial frame reciprocity nor the speed of light postulate holds. Today, many physicists and students of physics have acquired the impression that these two SR postulates have been confirmed by observations. However, that is not the case ... Of interest here is the point that the Global Positioning System (GPS) uses the latter [LR] synchronization convention for pragmatic reasons ... For example in GPS, all atomic clocks aboard satellites with a variety of orbital planes, and all atomic clocks all over the rotating Earth, are all synchronized with one another, and remain synchronized, despite being in many different inertial frames. This appears to be a practical realization of Lorentz"s universal time ... GPS [synchronizes] each clock ... to an imaginary, moment-by-moment co-located clock always at rest in the local gravitational potential field, the Earth-centered inertial frame. But that is precisely what LR specifies as the method of synchronizing to Lorentzian universal time. This GPS procedure is all very nice, but hardly what Einstein envisioned when speaking of two clocks in relative motion, one at a station and one on a passing train. How simple special relativity would have become all these years if physicists had realized that all they had to do was reset the clock rates so they all ticked at the same rate as the reference clock in the local gravity field! The converse situation is also revealing. Suppose we did not change the GPS satellite clock rates before launch, but instead let them tick at their design rates in accord with whatever speed and potential they experienced in orbit. Now, suppose we tried to Einstein-synchronize the system of clocks. Satellite and ground clocks would tick at different rates. And if we tried to work in any local, instantaneously co-moving inertial frame, the corrections needed to synchronize with each orbiting clock would be unique to that observer"s frame and different from moment to moment because both clocks are accelerating. The practical difficulties of operating the system would be virtually insurmountable ... ... "elysium" (the light-carrying medium) ... Historically, de Sitter, Sagnac, Michelson, and Ives concluded from their respective experiments that they had falsified SR in favor of the Lorentz theory. [[?]] In each case, subsequent re-interpretation of SR allowed that theory to survive these objections. Only the Michelson-Morley experiment was ever thought to falsify LR. But entrainment of elysium by the local gravity field means that no fringe displacement is expected by LR in that experiment, just as was observed. This author showed that Lorentz contraction is not operating in LR, and there is no contraction of physical length or length standards ... The practical difficulties for GPS of not changing the natural rates of clocks pre-launch, or with the use of SR for any frame other than the Lorentzian preferred frame, are very great. If a ring of satellites (A, B, C, ", Y, Z) circled the Earth in a common orbit, and each satellite tried to Einstein synchronize with the next in sequence, then when Z tried to complete the circuit by Einstein-synchronizing with A, the corrections required would lead to time readings for A different from the starting readings, making closure impossible. In fact a single satellite clock could not Einstein-synchronize with itself because the time for a light beam to travel forward around the orbit differs from the time for the same signal to travel backwards around the orbit ... De Sitter argued that the forward displacement of starlight (aberration) depended on absolute, not relative, speeds because both components of a double star, each with some unique velocity, had the same aberration. Sagnac argued that the fringe shifts expected but not seen in the Michelson-Morley experiment are seen if the experiment is done on a rotating platform. Michelson argued in the 1925 Michelson-Gale experiment that the Earth was just such a rotating platform ...'' ------------------------ GPS Evidence Against the Relativity Principle, by Thomas E. Phipps, Jr.; Infinite Energy, Issue 67; May 2006; p. 22 and following. ``The Global Positioning System (GPS) compensates the running rates of its atomic clocks for their orbital motion by speeding them up so as to cancel the relativistic time dilatation. Such compensated clocks, when in orbit, run in step with each other and with an earth-surface Master Clock ... The realativity principle ... demands ... the clocks of two ... observers [to be] each running slower than the other. To avoid an inifinite logical regression to nonsense, SRT [Special Relativity] therefore needs clock rates to be appearances. Whereas to earn extra credit for predicting the observed asymetrical aging of muons (circling and stationary in the laboratory) SRT needs clock rates to be real ... SRT's event calculus [is used] to show that clock phase jumps properly account for the asymetry ... Neither actual clocks ... nor biological processes behave discontinuously in nature. The stay-at-home twin cannot reset his biological clock to accommodate the phase jumps ... A clock of the GPS when in orbit is in free fall ... Two independent relativistic effects on such clocks are recognized and compensated for by the GPS. There is an effect of location in the gravity field and a separate motional effect of "time dilatation" by a factor gamma = 1/(1-V^2/c^2)^0.5 ... This means that, when a GPS clock is moved from the earth's surface into orbit, it runs slower due to time dilatation but faster due to location change (being less deep in the earth's gravity field) ... Attention will be confined here exclusively to the phenomenon of time dilatation produced by clock motion ... Confining attention to the GPS atomic clocks, we note that in such clocks a cloud of cesium atoms is irradiated so as to stimulate in some of the atoms a ... transition at frequency No cycles per second ... The GPS engineers reasoned that if this same cloud of atoms were placed in orbit at speed V relative to ... the mass center of the earth ... then those atomic oscillations would be slowed by the time dilatation factor gamma = 1/(1-V^2/c^2)^0.5 due to the relative motion. To correct for this anticipated slowing, they pre-compensated this motional effect by speeding up the clock to be orbited. That is, they set it to run at a rate increased by the factor gamma. This was done in the simplest way by redefining the "second" to be a reduced number No' = No/gamma of oscillations of the cesium resonance. For purposes of discussion, we could picture the "clock" as serving a dual purpose -- containing two counters of the basic oscillations, one set to register a "natural" ... second ... and the other set to register a "compensated second" ... Each clock "sees" all the others as running in step with itself ... the GPS is telling us that the slow-running of orbiting clocks is not an "appearance" nor a "perception" of the earth-surface observer, but a fact verifiable by any observer ... By means of its event calculus, introducing clock phases and the Lorentz contraction of lengths, SRT correctly predicts elapsed times but leaves aside rates. If rates are considered unobservable, the relativity principle [RP] is obeyed. My claim of RP violation is based on the counter proposition, that clock rates are in fact physical observables in their own right ... SRT says explicitly that the clocks of two relatively-moving inertial observers run slower than each other. It mitigates this logical contradiction not a bit to say that reversing the motion of one of the observers and applying the event calculus resolves the "twin" problem. This does not resolve, it evades. If no turn-around event occurs, the contradiction persists indefinitely ... SRT ... as an event calculus, will give a coherent ... accounting of the GPS situation ... not only by fiddling phases but by contorting space (Lorentz contraction of the orbiting light-speed measuring apparatus) ... No experimental measurement of the Lorentz contraction has ever succeeded ... The objective reality of time dilatation [Jack writes: There are alternative explanations], indicated by the GPS evidence demands a matching objective reality of the Lorentz contraction ... To test the issue in a simple manner, it would be desirable to construct a dual-purpose clock, as defined above, put it into orbit, and use it in a suitable apparatus to measure light speed with each of the two clocks ... If the orbiting uncompensated [clock] measured c, this would be seen as confirming the objective physical Lorentz contraction of the measuring apparatus in orbit ... If the compensated [clock] measured c, this would indicate invariance of length and invalidity of the metric statements of SRT ...'' From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 12:22:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8PJM3fr027666; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:22:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8PJLw0K027624; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:21:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:21:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index; b=zRX34F9Lm8+sgXt0aNJwUIOxFvO88FTrNsHvOYPCQj8KLr5l2Km3vrQYkYvS9RrKSKPjKRs0pPD3Vl8jZZW8QvKuJ5/OXI2EOgWN+pCnzjsJKnvHFBEZD6veF05+qTNrmig8sKB6nCe2zDmWchJe3epE7aIz+Pt7MIV4pqCjDEI= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: OrionWork's toroid Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:21:55 +0100 Message-ID: <002001c6e0d7$dfbc06f0$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbgTIuMAZ8YEA/KQxyGZ5Ywd9RHqAAiSz4Q Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70810 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Can someone do a few sketches? Bit thick today. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] Sent: 25 September 2006 03:41 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In reply to OrionWorks's message of Sun, 24 Sep 2006 20:40:40 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Here's my conundrum: How do individual free-wheeling electrons behave when placed within a magnetic field? According to my conventional understanding of particle physics, a fog chamber clearly shows charged particles, particularly electrons, SPIRALING in step with any magnetic field that they might be immersed within. The question I keep asking myself is: Are these electrons "spiraling" because they are already moving THROUGH the magnetic flux lines (akin to the phenomenon we call electricity), or would stationary free floating electrons automatically begin to pick up speed (accelerate) from a stationary position and begin to "spiral" in sync with the magnetic flux lines they are immersed within. [snip] If the latter were true, then since any metal contains many free electrons, one might expect them to start "spiraling" as long as the metal is in a magnetic field. However this is not observed, otherwise, the metal would eventually get red hot and melt. What does happen is that as long as the metal is *forced to move* within the field, then eddy currents will circulate within the metal heating it up, but the energy for this comes from the force which is creating the motion (or from initial kinetic energy if the metal just entered the field). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 12:23:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8PJN04X028232; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:23:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8PJMwKn028202; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:22:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:22:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index; b=JmwSL7/26B3dbWAUEfRQ4P06F6+1mU1PJuYCY9Br63coQzEj/yvVPYtMiGjv3a/T6CoAturCV4OKnH8rX17CSkLJ2gS18wNg6sNwQcY8JLKu61c7nd+vOTBX0HjIf2O2tw/vqOeEJUrpaivPiS3Wuqt75IlP//VrRxZYTCLNqd0= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:21:56 +0100 Message-ID: <002401c6e0d8$010aca80$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C6E0E0.62CF3280" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <004901c6e065$ffa85b20$0302a8c0@DONWDESKTOP> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbgZosAjBAUrUUZTxa+5nJu0XjGHwAaogiQ Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70811 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C6E0E0.62CF3280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don, I had a few thoughts on the paper: http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/ElectromagneticPropulsion.htm Remi. _____ From: Don Wiegel [mailto:dwiegel@qwest.net] Sent: 25 September 2006 06:45 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor A Theory of Microwave Propulsion for Spacecraft Roger Shawyer C.Eng MIEE SPR Ltd www.emdrive.com http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/av/shawyertheory.pdf ----- Original Message ----- From: John Berry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor I meant to expand on my hose analogy. I was likening the impulse of the arc and aether flow to a hose being turned on because I heard once that droplets of water are found to orbit water coming out of a nosle at high speed. And this is exactly what I believe the aether is doing and furthermore while I am not sure exactly how, I wonder if the reason the droplets do that is because of a 90 degree aether flow. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C6E0E0.62CF3280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Don,

I had a few thoughts on the paper: = http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/ElectromagneticPropulsion.htm=

 

Remi.

 

From: Don Wiegel [mailto:dwiegel@qwest.net]
Sent: 25 September 2006 = 06:45
To: = vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: stationary = emdrive- inertial anchor

 

A Theory of Microwave Propulsion for Spacecraft

Roger Shawyer C.Eng MIEE =

SPR Ltd =

www.emdrive.com =

----- Original Message ----- =

From: John = Berry

Sent: Friday, = September 22, 2006 2:31 PM

Subject: Re: = [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor

 

I meant to expand on my hose analogy.
I was likening the impulse of the arc and aether flow to a hose being = turned on because I heard once that droplets of water are found to orbit water = coming out of a nosle at high speed.

And this is exactly what I believe the aether is doing and furthermore = while I am not sure exactly how, I wonder if the reason the droplets do that is = because of a 90 degree aether flow.

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C6E0E0.62CF3280-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 12:24:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8PJNsiU029668; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:23:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8PJNrtE029640; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:23:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:23:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index; b=grYtmCg2vghPt3XQvp1bA6Ano91Q/A4sI3rTutiUy/LrWz5qeQVOgkLgWyZkIj64pWsk+VtwAHMdh0S9WwP3gttBzVKFb2TBvzMRDwf+CYw1rd9dV/XvCu0lSHWrKsj5QJSnmY6YWY2uujytn+QSR59hGkYLdLIBJo7MoX7cers= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: faster than light speeds, CBR etc. Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:23:53 +0100 Message-ID: <002901c6e0d8$24658ab0$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45177CCA.9090008@usfamily.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbgcJznUeo2+HnZTFqDPNkjdz0xKQAYdYiw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70812 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas, One thing I don't understand with Relativity is the kind of *memory effect* with the twins paradox. Imagine we have a piece of matter that explodes into lots of little bits spherically leaving a bit in the middle that doesn't get accelerated (call this frame 0). All the other bits flying off (frames 1 to n) could have some stable reference (say a sodium D line or similar) and all would agree that frame 0 is running fast. Frames 1 to n on comparing to one another would agree that the other was running slow, not their frame though. Now my question with the memory effect is this: Most likely on looking up at the cosmos one will see other frames 1 to n and agree that they are in relative motion and both (including oneself if we are fair and not unique) observe time dilation and length contraction effects. There must be a chance of seeing a frame 0 we have been accelerated from whose time is running fast, not just blue shifted because it is coming towards us but because we are the moving twin in the paradox and ultimately this must be the original rest frame of the universe if one believes the Big Bang or even Steady State, no? It seems that we are immersed in an 'ether superfluid' and whenever we accelerate or move it affects our clock and length as perceived by others. I read somewhere that they (?) can detect absolute motion relative to the cosmic background radiation because it appears Doppler shifted. Though pops into my head, if the CBR is homogeneous and isotropic and universal it must have a lot of mass, might that be what EMPROP devices could be pushing against? 'xcuse the pun, I know its tenuous. Seems to me that if one has a cavity one could be shielding against it. I dunno, need to figure. Anyway I will ask permission to see if I can scan in the article debunking ZPE from I think the astrophysical journal. I need sometime to get thoughts in order to even begin framing an argument. Remi. -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy@usfamily.net] Sent: 25 September 2006 07:53 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: faster than light speeds I've heard Tom Van Flandern discuss his exploding planet theory several times. I came across his article about Lorenzian relativity which allows for FTL speeds. http://www.metaresearch.org/cosmology/gravity/LR.asp --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 12:34:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8PJXr7F004002; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:33:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8PJXpKb003974; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:33:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:33:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060925152814.04197508@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:33:43 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: I Think that I will never see... In-Reply-To: <003301c6e0c1$fc42bd20$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <000e01c6e0b5$fa1154a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <003301c6e0c1$fc42bd20$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <95S6mB.A.C-.f8CGFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70813 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Let me repeat the simple fact that if we were to burn every leaf, stick, blade of grass and branch that grows in the entire United States per year, it would supply barely half of our energy requirements. If we were to supply 10% of our automobile fuel with biofuels we would all starve to death. Biofuels are a crock & a delusion. They are utterly uneconomical and impractical. They serve only one purpose: they are a convenient cover for gigantic corporations and OPEC members who want to steal tax money and burn 100 million extra barrels of oil for no reason. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 13:26:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8PKQ0hT031740; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:26:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8PKPwJf031722; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:25:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:25:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=kLhQLVM4hki5MKbK4uqFyQKNLKI5mhc01Pz+7LkpTVhJGzzZKVmIGjIYO2s452fTlcYYfCsJxzBYtiQdqlnSORyVPDj/aseDiWW8+G1kHaCtRFQ4YOrBMI+ZQuWMvmzcPO3O2p5lEzNnDfYtDkfgwtmCwy02RQDzpPh2I2zHofU= ; Message-ID: <00c701c6e0e0$cef9a080$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <000e01c6e0b5$fa1154a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <003301c6e0c1$fc42bd20$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060925152814.04197508@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:25:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70814 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: I Think that I will never see... Status: O X-Status: Let me repeat the simple fact that the Pimentel paper which you continue to rely on for this kind of absurd conclusion is itself the only real "crock & a delusion" which I have seen in the biofuels arena: it is outdated, inaccurate "bunk" playing right into the hands of OPEC. Jones ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > Let me repeat the simple fact that if we were to burn every > leaf, stick, blade of grass and branch that grows in the entire > United States per year, it would supply barely half of our > energy requirements. If we were to supply 10% of our automobile > fuel with biofuels we would all starve to death. > > Biofuels are a crock & a delusion. They are utterly uneconomical > and impractical. They serve only one purpose: they are a > convenient cover for gigantic corporations and OPEC members who > want to steal tax money and burn 100 million extra barrels of > oil for no reason. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 13:53:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8PKqjKj014788; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:52:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8PKqhue014766; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:52:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:52:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060925163256.041a57a8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 16:52:40 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: I Think that I will never see... In-Reply-To: <00c701c6e0e0$cef9a080$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <000e01c6e0b5$fa1154a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <003301c6e0c1$fc42bd20$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060925152814.04197508@mindspring.com> <00c701c6e0e0$cef9a080$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_24503031==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70815 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_24503031==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene wrote: >Let me repeat the simple fact that the Pimentel paper which you >continue to rely on for this kind of absurd conclusion . . . I do not rely on the Pimentel paper alone. Their data is well documented by others. Any textbook on biology, agronomy or agriculture shows this to be the case. Every agricultural expert quoted in the news has repeated similar numbers. For example, see the October 2006 "Consumer Reports" cover story, "The Ethanol Myth." The limits of North American sunlight, water supplies, fertilizer and plant photosynthesis are fixed, immutable, and they were well understood long before my mother graduated from agriculture college in 1939. There is not the slightest hope we can grow a significant amount of fuel in a country with a population density as high as the U.S. (Countries such as Australia are another matter.) Anyone who grows firewood can see how approximately much land it takes to supply energy; there is no chance the numbers will suddenly increase by a factor of ten overnight, and if it does not, we will have to choose between eating and powering our vehicles. As the Consumer Report and countless others have pointed out, biofuel production is already straining U.S. and South American agricultural production, which means we are already condemning millions more people to starvation, malnutrition, and early death. So that we can drive SUVs! Is this really worth the lives of a few thousand children per week? This is the cruelest, most inhumane, most senseless and wasteful scheme yet devised in the long history of folly and destruction that constitutes U.S. energy policy. >is itself the only real "crock & a delusion" which I have seen in >the biofuels arena: it is outdated, inaccurate "bunk" playing right >into the hands of OPEC. You have it backwards. Why else do you think the oil companies and this administration are so eager to promote biofuels, along with pie-in-the-sky hydrogen vehicles? Every megajoule of biofuel costs at least 1.3 megajoules of oil to produce (or 0.6 if you believe the ethanol flacks -- an equally ludicrous number). They know that perfectly well. If biofuels were even slightly cost effective, you would see the biofuel-growing farm tractors and factories running on biofuel. You NEVER see that. They could not possibly produce enough of the stuff to run their own machines. It is obvious they are running a net energy deficit! - Jed --=====================_24503031==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jones Beene wrote:

Let me repeat the simple fact that the Pimentel paper which you continue to rely on for this kind of absurd conclusion . . .

I do not rely on the Pimentel paper alone. Their data is well documented by others. Any textbook on biology, agronomy or agriculture shows this to be the case.
Every agricultural expert quoted in the news has repeated similar numbers. For example, see the October 2006 "Consumer Reports" cover story, "The Ethanol Myth."

The limits of North American sunlight, water supplies, fertilizer and plant photosynthesis are fixed, immutable, and they were well understood long before my mother graduated from agriculture college in 1939. There is not the slightest hope we can grow a significant amount of fuel in a country with a population density as high as the U.S. (Countries such as Australia are another matter.)

Anyone who grows firewood can see how approximately much land it takes to supply energy; there is no chance the numbers will suddenly increase by a factor of ten overnight, and if it does not, we will have to choose between eating and powering our vehicles. As the Consumer Report and countless others have pointed out, biofuel production is already straining U.S. and South American agricultural production, which means we are already condemning millions more people to starvation, malnutrition, and early death. So that we can drive SUVs! Is this really worth the lives of a few thousand children per week? This is the cruelest, most inhumane, most senseless and wasteful scheme yet devised in the long history of folly and destruction that constitutes U.S. energy policy.


is itself the only real "crock & a delusion" which I have seen in the biofuels arena: it is outdated, inaccurate "bunk" playing right into the hands of OPEC.

You have it backwards. Why else do you think the oil companies and this administration are so eager to promote biofuels, along with pie-in-the-sky hydrogen vehicles? Every megajoule of biofuel costs at least 1.3 megajoules of oil to produce (or 0.6 if you believe the ethanol flacks -- an equally ludicrous number). They know that perfectly well.

If biofuels were even slightly cost effective, you would see the biofuel-growing farm tractors and factories running on biofuel. You NEVER see that. They could not possibly produce enough of the stuff to run their own machines. It is obvious they are running a net energy deficit!

- Jed
--=====================_24503031==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 15:01:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8PM0p3r014706; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:00:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8PM0ohG014685; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:00:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:00:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=rKKtdFDof5xaj2dps5BL2T+Bf40qxfPIIEoRCMNvLMmH7MrSMe2h7ujNuARVqpnYqkraCveAoIEjELWAJcjomFNNeZVuGw2rzZmDycIN51+UAGoUYCujgYgr5GIUJD/JhibJe50JaTpb2vsjV10FIPoLi4tkfo4x7/i/AJqapm0= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:00:49 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: I Think that I will never see... In-Reply-To: <003301c6e0c1$fc42bd20$6401a8c0@NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <000e01c6e0b5$fa1154a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <003301c6e0c1$fc42bd20$6401a8c0@NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70816 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 9/25/06, Jones Beene wrote: > BTW - to the cynics amongst us - isn't it a bit curious that the > price of oil in the USA has been falling in the past few weeks - > somewhat in timing with the recent announcements about biofuels > (Cilion/Virgin) and the other promising biofuels announcements. > Coincidental ? Probably coincidental this time, but shouldn't we > keep it that way? Beyond cynical . . . jaded. Anyway, there's a single reason why the price of oil is low . . . GM invested all it's development money on four (4) new SUVs. It's a damned site cheaper to lower the price of oil than it is to rescue GM. http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/sep2006/bw20060925_256087.htm?chan=autos_autos+index+page http://tinyurl.com/fku9d The price will fall below $2/gal before Thanksgiving, giving incentives for the idoicy to buy GM's new rolling monsters. Then oil will continue it's continuous path. Ignore the discontinuity. Terry PS GM and Fnord will merge. Is the name "American Motors" still available? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 15:28:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8PMSRs0026494; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:28:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8PMSPrS026462; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:28:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:28:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=hcCI9AyIU/gxx986IeiyzMnkobAnl0EdeGNPPjm6YFuwTqF6S9pDt53R/XGut74ufh0AbJp6kWIcvmecYN9YTYwZC9vgrnKmCR0Xioa5dG8EBONk/wAblPp37jfE+nT1LpaXZZQl6CYucEayEIZ7e2rjX0fUWqsj8ohnno02aBo= ; Message-ID: <011f01c6e0f1$eaad8ba0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <000e01c6e0b5$fa1154a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <003301c6e0c1$fc42bd20$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060925152814.04197508@mindspring.com> <00c701c6e0e0$cef9a080$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060925163256.041a57a8@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:28:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70817 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: I Think that I will never see... Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I do not rely on the Pimentel paper alone. Their data is well > documented by others. Any textbook on biology, agronomy or > agriculture shows this to be the case. Every agricultural expert quoted in the news has repeated similar numbers. For example, see the October 2006 "Consumer Reports" cover story, "The Ethanol Myth." Ah... Consumer Reports ... this is your new authority for scientific information? What about the USDA and DOE ? They have done slightly more thorough studies than CR, and found positive energy balances for corn ethanol (around 1.37) and soy biodiesel (3.2) or do those expert opinions not count? But the problem is that those studies are themselves short sighted. FORGET corn ethanol, which is what Pimentel has based much of his erroneous bunk on. FORGET all food crops. Look at Ag-waste, modified ocean algae, tank grown algae and biomass grown on land unsuitable for food crops. FORGET distillation - this ancient history (almost) unless it employs waste heat from cogeneration. When you see a 1 Gigawatt plant belching out 2 wasted gigawatts of heat - look at that as taking the present positive energy balance for ethanol from 1.37 (even using corn) to well over three. Be ware that gasoline itself is a distilled product with a lower energy balance compared to the tonnage of crude used. FORGET almost everything over 4-5 years old in biofuel technology - it is a new world dawning- as nowadays, the responsible solution for eliminating some portion of foreign oil is home-grown biofuel made from non-food sources, and requiring no distillation (or using waste hear from cogeneration). Sure it is new, but educate yourself or be resigned to the fact that others will place those views in with what Bob Park pronounces about LENR ! Biodiesel requires ZERO distillation. The so-called "experts" must not even be aware of that fact when making false pronouncement about negative energy balance. The last decade in biofuels has seen emphasis shift to cellulose, away from food crops, and towards nondistillation methods. It takes time for this information to filter down to the local level. We aren't there yet, far from it - but it is counter-productive to quote misinformed zealots like Pimentel, who is clearly more obstinate than Bob Park, when it comes to looking at cutting edge R&D with an open mind. Almost every conclusion of the outdated Pimentel studies has now been negated and debunked. Otherwise you would not see the millions of new investment going into ethanol. Yes - of course few farmers in Georgia are doing this now (growing their own), but a quick search indicates that Georgia Power is getting into the act: http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/users/stories/georgiapower.shtm and one suspects that sooner or later, as 'red diesel' gets more expensive, even small farmers in rural America will see that there are viable options for them to "grow their own" rather than pay it out to big-oil and OPEC. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 15:56:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8PMu4Vp005927; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:56:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8PMu3fR005909; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:56:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:56:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=2YmHjDi31ywd9DMMCKs/CZT3hijLoV87HVSkaahVodh1btTctYsrjcJTek4kdvv07hZFo8PSl1tN6tkZ1IQAOniXv/AgvFEWJ4cXa4Xt1cIqpZta+EZlj5zaQOtz4Hsu7dhzZRIFNaoshQifhRVkrc1i39KswfikY2nq4rn6qz0= ; Message-ID: <013601c6e0f5$c2847db0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <000e01c6e0b5$fa1154a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <003301c6e0c1$fc42bd20$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:55:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70818 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: I Think that I will never see... Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton has predicted: > The price will fall below $2/gal before Thanksgiving, giving > incentives for the idoicy to buy GM's new rolling monsters. > Then oil > will continue it's continuous path. Ignore the discontinuity. Hmm... below $2 for gasoline? national average ? ...kinda doubt it, GM or no. Actually - if you want "jaded" ... consider that the low GM stock price is just an invitation for Texaco to buy up what it doesn't already own, so that they can plug up the leaks about "who killed the electric car"... ;-) OTOH... we could see a fall in pump-prices (not crude) IF the US Congress experiences "regime change" around Thanksgiving, and the new-crooks [who replace the old-crooks] promise to levy a huge excess-profits tax on big oil to pay for the war (sure to be vetoed; and very doubtful on either count). Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 16:30:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8PNU27w021402; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 16:30:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8PNKaDn017690; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 16:20:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 16:20:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=mAmTE8nWU/MaJ+Onsl1vHj1X8v+4dCfBWEjFBCBHll6/yW4CMRVKymfEIt+i4kujWyMADi18DY9eEgrhkP5qdWg2FhdUl7nHUVsf4oxT8smzwgFtjHa2V7M9896PxTxjYx+ow+ATfyMK+LE9Puzrjku6tNCsfVPS24Ksp/TbKxo= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:20:23 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: I Think that I will never see... In-Reply-To: <013601c6e0f5$c2847db0$6401a8c0@NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_44663_22289160.1159226423450" References: <000e01c6e0b5$fa1154a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <003301c6e0c1$fc42bd20$6401a8c0@NuDell> <013601c6e0f5$c2847db0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70819 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_44663_22289160.1159226423450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline If Jed is even close to being right (in the ballpark) it doesn't make sense, there is more than enough power from hydro, solar, wind, wave and tide and temperature differentials, and electric cars work just fine. No need for stupid bio fuels (unless they use waste products and take little energy to turn into fuel, why would you grow biofuel????), anyway if your going to make fuel why not do it along the lines of bingofuel (or whatever it was0 or whatever Naudin was playing with, seems much easier. (It doesn't matter if it is OU or not, it only matters that it can power either diesel or petrol engines, there is plenty of energy from those aforementioned sources not to mention Akoil, Steorn, Sprain might pull through) On 9/26/06, Jones Beene wrote: > > Terry Blanton has predicted: > > > The price will fall below $2/gal before Thanksgiving, giving > > incentives for the idoicy to buy GM's new rolling monsters. > > Then oil > > will continue it's continuous path. Ignore the discontinuity. > > > Hmm... below $2 for gasoline? national average ? ...kinda doubt > it, GM or no. > > Actually - if you want "jaded" ... consider that the low GM stock > price is just an invitation for Texaco to buy up what it doesn't > already own, so that they can plug up the leaks about "who killed > the electric car"... ;-) > > OTOH... we could see a fall in pump-prices (not crude) IF the US > Congress experiences "regime change" around Thanksgiving, and the > new-crooks [who replace the old-crooks] promise to levy a huge > excess-profits tax on big oil to pay for the war (sure to be > vetoed; and very doubtful on either count). > > Jones > > ------=_Part_44663_22289160.1159226423450 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline If Jed is even close to being right (in the ballpark) it doesn't make sense, there is more than enough power from hydro, solar, wind, wave and tide and temperature differentials, and electric cars work just fine.

No need for stupid bio fuels (unless they use waste products and take little energy to turn into fuel, why would you grow biofuel????), anyway if your going to make fuel why not do it along the lines of bingofuel (or whatever it was0 or whatever Naudin was playing with, seems much easier. (It doesn't matter if it is OU or not, it only matters that it can power either diesel or petrol engines, there is plenty of energy from those aforementioned sources not to mention Akoil, Steorn, Sprain might pull through)

On 9/26/06, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:
Terry Blanton has predicted:

> The price will fall below $2/gal before Thanksgiving, giving
> incentives for the idoicy to buy GM's new rolling monsters.
> Then oil
> will continue it's continuous path.  Ignore the discontinuity.


Hmm... below $2 for gasoline? national average ?  ...kinda doubt
it, GM or no.

Actually - if you want "jaded" ... consider that the low GM stock
price is just an invitation for Texaco to buy up what it doesn't
already own, so that they can plug up the leaks about "who killed
the electric car"... ;-)

OTOH... we could see a fall in pump-prices (not crude) IF the US
Congress experiences "regime change" around Thanksgiving, and the
new-crooks [who replace the old-crooks] promise to levy a huge
excess-profits tax on big oil to pay for the war (sure to be
vetoed; and very doubtful on either count).

Jones


------=_Part_44663_22289160.1159226423450-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 17:24:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8Q0ODGg011750; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:24:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8Q0OCvk011731; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:24:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:24:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:23:54 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: I Think that I will never see... In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060925163256.041a57a8@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_O5A8sI1hTnaQCxgDcdd7DA)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <_5XQrC.A.O3C.rMHGFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70820 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_O5A8sI1hTnaQCxgDcdd7DA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT How does air pollution caused by burning ethanol compare to air pollution caused by burning gasoline? Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: Jones Beene wrote: Let me repeat the simple fact that the Pimentel paper which you continue to rely on for this kind of absurd conclusion . . . I do not rely on the Pimentel paper alone. Their data is well documented by others. Any textbook on biology, agronomy or agriculture shows this to be the case. Every agricultural expert quoted in the news has repeated similar numbers. For example, see the October 2006 "Consumer Reports" cover story, "The Ethanol Myth." The limits of North American sunlight, water supplies, fertilizer and plant photosynthesis are fixed, immutable, and they were well understood long before my mother graduated from agriculture college in 1939. There is not the slightest hope we can grow a significant amount of fuel in a country with a population density as high as the U.S. (Countries such as Australia are another matter.) Anyone who grows firewood can see how approximately much land it takes to supply energy; there is no chance the numbers will suddenly increase by a factor of ten overnight, and if it does not, we will have to choose between eating and powering our vehicles. As the Consumer Report and countless others have pointed out, biofuel production is already straining U.S. and South American agricultural production, which means we are already condemning millions more people to starvation, malnutrition, and early death. So that we can drive SUVs! Is this really worth the lives of a few thousand children per week? This is the cruelest, most inhumane, most senseless and wasteful scheme yet devised in the long history of folly and destruction that constitutes U.S. energy policy. is itself the only real "crock & a delusion" which I have seen in the biofuels arena: it is outdated, inaccurate "bunk" playing right into the hands of OPEC. You have it backwards. Why else do you think the oil companies and this administration are so eager to promote biofuels, along with pie-in-the-sky hydrogen vehicles? Every megajoule of biofuel costs at least 1.3 megajoules of oil to produce (or 0.6 if you believe the ethanol flacks -- an equally ludicrous number). They know that perfectly well. If biofuels were even slightly cost effective, you would see the biofuel-growing farm tractors and factories running on biofuel. You NEVER see that. They could not possibly produce enough of the stuff to run their own machines. It is obvious they are running a net energy deficit! - Jed --Boundary_(ID_O5A8sI1hTnaQCxgDcdd7DA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: Re:  I Think that I will never see...
How does air pollution caused by burning ethanol compare
to air pollution caused by burning gasoline?

Harry

Jed Rothwell wrote:

Jones Beene wrote:

Let me repeat the simple fact that the Pimentel paper which you continue to rely on for this kind of absurd conclusion . . .

I do not rely on the Pimentel paper alone. Their data is well documented by others. Any textbook on biology, agronomy or agriculture shows this to be the case.
Every agricultural expert quoted in the news has repeated similar numbers. For example, see the October 2006 "Consumer Reports" cover story, "The Ethanol Myth."

The limits of North American sunlight, water supplies, fertilizer and plant photosynthesis are fixed, immutable, and they were well understood long before my mother graduated from agriculture college in 1939. There is not the slightest hope we can grow a significant amount of fuel in a country with a population density as high as the U.S. (Countries such as Australia are another matter.)

Anyone who grows firewood can see how approximately much land it takes to supply energy; there is no chance the numbers will suddenly increase by a factor of ten overnight, and if it does not, we will have to choose between eating and powering our vehicles. As the Consumer Report and countless others have pointed out, biofuel production is already straining U.S. and South American agricultural production, which means we are already condemning millions more people to starvation, malnutrition, and early death. So that we can drive SUVs! Is this really worth the lives of a few thousand children per week? This is the cruelest, most inhumane, most senseless and wasteful scheme yet devised in the long history of folly and destruction that constitutes U.S. energy policy.


is itself the only real "crock & a delusion" which I have seen in the biofuels arena: it is outdated, inaccurate "bunk" playing right into the hands of OPEC.

You have it backwards. Why else do you think the oil companies and this administration are so eager to promote biofuels, along with pie-in-the-sky hydrogen vehicles? Every megajoule of biofuel costs at least 1.3 megajoules of oil to produce (or 0.6 if you believe the ethanol flacks -- an equally ludicrous number). They know that perfectly well.

If biofuels were even slightly cost effective, you would see the biofuel-growing farm tractors and factories running on biofuel. You NEVER see that. They could not possibly produce enough of the stuff to run their own machines. It is obvious they are running a net energy deficit!

- Jed


--Boundary_(ID_O5A8sI1hTnaQCxgDcdd7DA)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 19:08:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8Q28MxS025376; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:08:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8Q28JkG025340; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:08:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:08:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=ayDWIHmiwjRPkcTg29rhfxoDxaSu3QyL90DKm+DohVH/lnyA/sI63BGbVUzuJ9UL; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <17466733.1159236495327.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:08:15 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: I Think that I will never see... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c523abc179d6bed5f0e86a0a29b1a9ed1f4bbb53ec8eced9e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.27 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70821 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene writes: >Ah... Consumer Reports ... this is your new authority for >scientific information? Hey, don't sell them short. They are an excellent, unbiased source of information. And you cannot always trust mainstream establishment sources such as Nature, Scientific American or Robert Park of the APS. In any case this article quotes many well-know experts, and raises iquestions you will not hear from the administration or any of the flacks who have diverted billions of dollars or Our Tax Money into the pockets of agri-businesses. >What about the USDA and DOE ? What about them? They say the same thing Pimentel and everyone else says, when the gag is removed and they are allowed to tell the truth. Look here, don't take my word for it (as if!), or Pimentel's, or anyone else's. Stop talking about experts. Sit down and run numbers yourself. Look at how much productive land there is per person in the U.S., and how much food production it supports. Compare calories of food consumed by a person to calories consumed by automobiles. Look at the annual per capita energy consumption. Start here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/ Work it out from first principles and you quickly see that our machines consume MUCH more energy than we do, and the land we have can support at most 2 or 3 times the U.S. population. Some basic facts: The average U.S. automobile consumes 532 gallons of gasoline per year. That much fuel produces 70,000 MJ of raw heat, or 192 MJ per day. A person is supposed to eat 2,500 kcal of food per day. That's 11 MJ. QED: automobiles alone consume ten times more energy than people do. And that's just automobiles. Your per capita energy consumption includes much more. You use 30 to 50 times more machine energy than caloric energy. Do not assert that we will build gigantic areas with growing trays or irrigated crops; there is not that much fresh water in the U.S., and to desalinate the water would take far more energy than you get out of the biofuel. That kind of scheme simply does not add up. >Look at >Ag-waste, modified ocean algae, tank grown algae and biomass grown >on land unsuitable for food crops. Nowhere near enough, no matter how you cut it. Remember: machines consume TWICE as much as the entire continent produces in biomass. Ag-waste will never work. Again, forget the experts and claims and counter-claims and go back to first principle biology. When people and other animals eat plant matter, they generally eat the seeds, which have by far the most energy. That is how we survive eating so little plant food compared to, say, elephants, or pandas which eat 40 lbs of bamboo a day. My mother-in-law cuts and eats a handful of bamboo shoots in one day, and does not starve because the energy is far more concentrated in the shoots than the adult plant. This is true of all crops grown by people: most of the energy is harvested and eaten. You are not going to get 10 or 20 or 50 times more energy left in the field than on your plate, and if you do not get that much more -- forgot it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 19:16:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8Q2GI28028695; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:16:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8Q2GIZA028686; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:16:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:16:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <111.64f49c8f.3249e76b@aol.com> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:16:11 EDT Subject: [Vo]: faster than light speeds To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1159236971" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5324 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <_Sy7BB.A.GAH.x1IGFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70822 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1159236971 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a paper out on Special Relativity. I some ways a deeper understanding of relativity leads to an understanding of cold fusion. _http://www.wbabin.net/science/znidarsic.pdf_ (http://www.wbabin.net/science/znidarsic.pdf) Frank Znidatrsic -------------------------------1159236971 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a paper out on Special Relativity.  I some ways a deeper=20 understanding of relativity leads to an understanding of cold fusion.
 
http://www.wbabin.net/s= cience/znidarsic.pdf
 
Frank Znidatrsic
 -------------------------------1159236971-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 19:24:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8Q2ONiD000680; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:24:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8Q2OMik000657; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:24:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:24:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001101c6e112$d97c22d0$f4d2163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <002901c6e0d8$24658ab0$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> Subject: Re: [Vo]: faster than light speeds, CBR etc. Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:24:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70823 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Original Message ----- From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 3:23 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: faster than light speeds, CBR etc. > There must be a chance of seeing a frame 0 we have been accelerated from > whose time is running fast, not just blue shifted because it is coming > towards us but because we are the moving twin in the paradox and > ultimately > this must be the original rest frame of the universe if one believes the > Big > Bang or even Steady State, no? Do a search for the paradox of the equally accelerated twins, aka the "other" twin paradox, and you will find the conventional explanation for what is going on. While you will likely not hear it presented quite this way, an implication of relativity of simultaneity is that time, in a sense, "propagates" at v = c. It then follows that any effect exceeding c, that is with spacelike separation, is acausal, at least in some frames of reference. It should be noted that there is absolutely no way to determine whether or not there is true relativity of simultaneity or whether there exists absolute simultaneity with any signalling system limited to c. It is only presumed, based on taking the simpler of two explanations, that simultaneity is relative. You will no doubt find in many of the standard texts (probably all in fact) 'spacetime diagrams' which show the student why everything is only relatively simultaneous, and why the paradox of the equally accelerated twins happens. What no one seems to be taught is that almost the entire area of the spacetime diagram of events is completely meaningless! The only way one observer would be able to tell if indeed simultaneity was truly relative with the other observer would be to use a signal travelling at v = infinity. The only communication which can take place between the two observers (or twins in this case) is when they are at the exact same location. If they are separated by any distance, they can only communicate at a speed less than or equal to c, and as such can never determine the nature of the vast area of the spacetime diagram. And yet this completely untestable portion of an X/T chart, charmingly taught as the spacetime diagram, can never be proven to be correct with anything limited to c. When I realized that, there wasn't any going back. The magic of relativity was lost, and now I ask the kinds of questions that the residents of sci.physics.relativity say are the wrong questions to ask. It makes excellent predictions, yes, and has so far been unfalsified. But these self same predictions can be had by dropping the relativity of simultaneity, and establishing that it is absolute. Tangherlini, Selleri, etc. have given different transforms which work identically to special relativity at velocities up to c; where they differ is in the realm beyond c, and in the meaning behind the numbers. In a nutshell: with relativity of simultaneity, if you go faster than light, you end up with time travel, at least in some reference frames. (and in fact you can do some tricks to make it happen in all reference frames, those nasty irresolvable paradoxes). If instead you assume absolute simultaneity (which by definition means there is a preferred reference frame) if you go faster than light, you just get there faster. Time travel is impossible, the arrow of time irreversible. When one considers EPR, Nimtz's experiments, and others of a somewhat similar nature, Occam's Razor begins to dull. > I read somewhere that they (?) can detect absolute motion relative to the > cosmic background radiation because it appears Doppler shifted. Roughly 370km/sec in the direction of the constellation Virgo, if I remember correctly. Some say 600km/sec, but I do not recall where that came from. > Though pops into my head, if the CBR is homogeneous and isotropic and > universal it must have a lot of mass, might that be what EMPROP devices > could be pushing against? 'xcuse the pun, I know its tenuous. Seems to me > that if one has a cavity one could be shielding against it. I dunno, need > to > figure. Anyway I will ask permission to see if I can scan in the article > debunking ZPE from I think the astrophysical journal. Assuming (big assumption because nobody* was there) that the universe began with an explosion at a single point, one could reason that the frame of reference occupied by that point, the part of which did not explode outwards in all directions, is the cosmic rest frame. If so, the CBR (CMB, COB, CIB, etc.) could very well be that same frame of reference. It would be interesting then, I think, to test any possible reactionless drive for efficiency changes depending on its orientation with respect to the direction of our travel against this CBR frame. One other thought, off the deep end: since you mentioned the dreaded ether: if a supposed ether is the cosmic rest frame, and therefore preferred, what happens if somehow a part of that ether were dragged along by "something"? Does that part of the ether now have a separate, non-preferred frame? Or do rulers and clocks behave the exact same way in both the non-dragged and dragged parts? I have wondered about this because the CBR is not entirely homogenous. *Nobody human at least. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 20:12:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8Q3CjRm021447; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:12:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8Q3ChaJ021431; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:12:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:12:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=Le9phldPi7xaOj5w3YrZ8clPTbr5+qjYC3H8w7Jbtbb+Qdr5UBh8t5D9O2hWYML7GozDR6f6yGtLV0oVJtdvZ6CdwvW+GFzodTmKVdl61MzWo3NXrKahAXiZbQO3vET+1oRBGtekb7WSZTsO66WZxlHl9xI3aYforuVpH9tmbLU= ; Message-ID: <01b701c6e119$a1785e10$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <17466733.1159236495327.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:12:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70824 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: I Think that I will never see... Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" >>What about the USDA and DOE ? > What about them? They say the same thing Pimentel and everyone > else says, when the gag is removed and they are allowed to tell > the truth. Absurd disinformation! Here is what they actually say: The DOE and USDA did a study in last year known as the "Billion Ton Study," which indicates that there is enough underutilized agricultural and forestland resources in the USA to sustainably harvest 1.3 billion tons of biomass annually without impacting food supplies. This does not count ocean resources for algae which are potential greater than 2 billion tons from the Gulf of Mexico alone. This land resource would be enough feedstock to produce at least 60 billion gallons of ethanol, possibly more with bio-engineered species instead of corn. There is enough waste heat from utilities to distill it all with no added burden to them and zero added fossil fuel. This is even without the new non-distillation methods. When implemented fully - this will be roughly 30% of yearly motor gasoline used (based on consumption in the SUV era). All it takes is a national commitment to "just do it" and stop quibbling over artificial barriers and Pimento-cheesey arguments. In fact, today's pace of new biofuels capacity, even without the needed high-level help, far exceeds former EPA mandates and will get us there in about 12 years if the recent pace continues unabated. In 2000, only 1.6 billion gallons of ethanol (mostly corn) was produced in the U.S. By 2005 this had grown to 4 billion, but then the price of oil continued to go through the roof. Almost immediately - in one year - a 20% jump in production will have occurred from 2005 to 2006. This year, more than 5 billion gallons will be produced (we may already have passed that). Sadly this 5 billion gallons is unnecessarily using mostly corn as feedstock. Corn prices have risen, but not all that much and we should at least be also using the corn stalk cellulose as feedstock. But the organisms to digest cellulose are newly developed, and it will take a year or two to implement this doubling of feedstock per acre. Over 100 corn ethanol plants are running in 20 states, with 42 new ones and 7 expansions under construction. That will provide a year to year increase of 50% for 2007. Once this capacity is completed in the Spring of next year, ethanol output in the United States will be at least 7.7 billion gallons yearly, but even that could mushroom once ocean algae harvesting is encouraged - and it is still much lower than the 60 billion which DOE says is sustainable. It would be helpful if commentators on this thread would actually read what the experts are saying TODAY - instead of relying on erroneous outdated material which has been debunked time and again and is simply no longer valid. Private investors do not build 150 ethanol plants if there is a negative energy balance despite what self-apponted "experts" say. The goal of hirty percent of oil being replaced by biofuel by 2020 or earlier is fine - but if we combine that with mandatory hybrids, instead of SUVs, then it could easily amount to a 40-50% shift of supply to renewable domestic sources, which is about what our imports from the Middle East are today. This is doable, folks. And -- of all observers and activists who follow these trends - the "alternative energy" crowd on vortex should be encouraging this ongoing development, not nay-saying and playing into OPEC's & big-oil's hand. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 20:50:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8Q3o7TP003790; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:50:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8Q3o6sU003772; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:50:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:50:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=ZA+Dhh0owEzNFad1EdDdUkVbPtPMLTFQrNNUy8klp9kxEPrxdfntnW4xTcoc91wf; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <16744684.1159242604150.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 23:50:03 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: I Think that I will never see... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c523abc179d6bed5f78870999045d813ea0a7d5037a8f68ff350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.27 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70825 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene writes: >The DOE and USDA did a study in last year known as the "Billion >Ton Study," which indicates that there is enough underutilized >agricultural and forestland resources in the USA . . . Let us translate that into real word facts, shall we? Do you know what "utilized" modern U.S. agricultural land is, and what it looks like, and much how fertilizer, insecticide and water it takes? We have destroyed half of the topsoil in North America in 100 years, and we are now wrecking the water table in most of the lower 48, and virtually all of the Great Plains states. "Utilizing" in this context means "raping the land" -- wiping out species wholesale and converting the most verdant and beautiful land on earth into a desert wasteland. That's what you will do if you continue with today's mechanized agriculture, which is really nothing more than a war against nature. You want to convert the remaining topsoil into a few decades more fuel for your SUVs, while you convert the U.S. into something that looks like Iraq (which was, once, the most verdant land on earth). Then what? to sustainably >harvest 1.3 billion tons of biomass annually without impacting >food supplies. This does not count ocean resources for algae which >are potential greater than 2 billion tons from the Gulf of Mexico >alone. Oh great. So we are going to spread havoc & poison while we wipe out biodiversity in the oceans as well? Brilliant. >It would be helpful if commentators on this thread would actually >read what the experts are saying TODAY - instead of relying on >erroneous outdated material . . . It would be even more helpful if commentators would consider some very basic physics and biology, and do some grade-school arithmetic. Also, it would help if you could relate to actual experience in the real world with things like firewood and growing crops. >The goal of hirty percent of oil being replaced by biofuel by 2020 >or earlier is fine . . . Sure, if we can just learn to stop eating food, or if we don't mind starving a few million people in other countries while we finish destroying the ecology and land in the U.S. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 20:57:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8Q3vJw7007145; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:57:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8Q3vIc0007125; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:57:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:57:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:57:10 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <004901c6e065$ffa85b20$0302a8c0@DONWDESKTOP> <002401c6e0d8$010aca80$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> In-Reply-To: <002401c6e0d8$010aca80$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 26 Sep 2006 03:57:10 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8Q3vF8O007105 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70826 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:21:56 +0100: Hi Remi, [snip] >Don, > >I had a few thoughts on the paper: >http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/ElectromagneticPropulsion.htm In http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/FeynmanIIpg24a7sections24a2to24a4.jpg it states very explicitly: "The group velocity of the waves is also the speed at which energy is transported along the guide". Which is what I always thought it was. However Andreas Rathke states in his paper "The Energy of a wave is transported at its phase velocity". (See page 1). One of them seems to be wrong. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 22:00:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8Q503TD024158; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:00:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8Q4RbTx029916; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:27:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:27:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 00:26:44 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: I Think that I will never see... In-reply-to: <16744684.1159242604150.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70828 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Sure, if we can just learn to stop eating food, or if we don't mind starving a > few million people in other countries while we finish destroying the ecology > and land in the U.S. US (and Western) farm subsidies make life difficult for farmers in lesser developed countries, so many countries continue to be dependent on western food production. But the writing is on the wall. The end farm of subsidies is coming. and food production in the US is going to decline. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 22:01:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8Q503TF024158; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:00:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8Q48fA0015319; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:08:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:08:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <68A34DFE87D0BE46AF898FFCC65CCF8438F58B@caraupermb02.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger@carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:05:38 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6E121.065D6B16" Resent-Message-ID: <72ral.A.MuD.GfKGFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70827 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Snyder air powered Generator Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E121.065D6B16 Content-Type: text/plain Vorts, Was sent this link today from another list. http://cyclesantamonica.blogspot.com/2006/09/snyder-generator.html John. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E121.065D6B16 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Snyder air powered Generator

Vorts,

Was sent this link today from another = list.

http://cyclesantamonica.blogspot.com/2006/09/snyder-gener= ator.html

John.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E121.065D6B16-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 22:15:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8Q503TB024158; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:00:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8Q4fINI007764; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:41:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:41:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <68A34DFE87D0BE46AF898FFCC65CCF8438F58C@caraupermb02.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger@carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: I Think that I will never see... Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:38:03 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70829 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, "but with "red diesel" now pushing $2 gallon, and few farmers netting the equivalent of $2,500 per acre (unless the crop is addictive like tobacco) ..." Here in Australia Diesel is currently being sold retail at around $1.35 AUD per Litre in the City (well over $1.50 AUD per litre in the country areas and there are a lot of them here :-)), even with the Farmers tax breaks for Diesel use in Farming producing their own Diesel for their own use would dramatically reduce their production overheads. This would be "addictive" to the Farmer! John. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 22:15:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8Q5F4gK007131; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:15:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8Q5F36U007104; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:15:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:15:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:12:21 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70830 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Chem experiments for kids (large pdf file) Status: O X-Status: The Golden Book of Chem. Experiments (28.6 meg pdf) http://www.foundontheweb.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/The-Golden-Book-Of-Chemistry-Experiments.pdf mirror: http://rapidshare.de/files/33904018/The_Golden_Book_of_Chemistry_Experiments.pdf.html Banned book: kid's chemistry http://www.chrisbrunner.com/2006/09/21/banned-the-golden-book-of-chemistry-experiments/ I loved this book! Haven't seen it in decades, and the article mentions it selling for over $500 on eBay. A very 'unsanitized' book for childhood shenannigans. Make hydrogen from lye and foil! Draw pictures with burning hydrogen sulfide! Don't breath the oxides of nitrogen too much! It even shows kids how to ferment corn syrup and yeast ...then distill out ethanol ...then use bleach to turn it into chloroform. Cool! Too bad all those chemicals are no longer available from the quoted source: "Hardware Store." Though amazingly enough, the local Bartell Drugs carried powdered sulfur and other interesting things. No nitric acid though. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ beaty@chem.washington.edu Research Engineer billb@amasci.com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 26 01:46:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8Q8k4OQ013219; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 01:46:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8Q8k1ln013186; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 01:46:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 01:46:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4518E8B6.200@usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 03:45:42 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: I Think that I will never see... References: <000e01c6e0b5$fa1154a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <003301c6e0c1$fc42bd20$6401a8c0@NuDell> <013601c6e0f5$c2847db0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70831 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > On 9/26/06, *Jones Beene* > wrote: > > Terry Blanton has predicted: > > > The price will fall below $2/gal before Thanksgiving, giving > > incentives for the idoicy to buy GM's new rolling monsters. > > Then oil will continue it's continuous path. Ignore the > discontinuity. > > Hmm... below $2 for gasoline? national average ? ...kinda doubt > it, GM or no. > Gas is $2.09 in Minneapolis. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 26 02:18:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8Q9I5p7026842; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 02:18:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8Q9I3nR026825; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 02:18:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 02:18:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4518F01B.7010108@usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 04:17:15 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70832 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Bearden site Status: O X-Status: I came across this website. I asked the author why he bothered posting this garbage. http://www.prahlad.org/pub/bearden/scalar_wars.htm --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 26 06:04:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8QD4hgV005594; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:04:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8QD4e5w005568; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:04:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:04:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index; b=1i9rc0FfFPdzoIGvCRvXLweOnQpxt1UhkzRIJkCnm88m2Z1h7pULo90teVliDqljC/We9ky0U20YIgBoBfyTLWDOU7BnV2Mo0kGaUQKZ9OqdhP9pE226C90Q/QEv5pOgV3BZuQrTvRuoyhaZ5gaBCI8ZJRAGaGMjYPg3sbSaxps= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:04:36 +0100 Message-ID: <003c01c6e16c$52e206e0$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbhIHS3CfYta4b3TBeuYULdwSwxdQAS1n6w Resent-Message-ID: <8Bkb8.A.7WB.nVSGFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70833 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, Yes it is confusing. Also sometimes the phase velocity appears to be greater than c (anomalous media) or the group velocity is. In either case they defer to the one less than c. The Feynman articles give a proof relating Quantum Mechanics (expressions for E and p) to the relation in Special Relativity that seems to provide a proof that it is the group velocity that is relevant. Remi. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] Sent: 26 September 2006 04:57 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:21:56 +0100: Hi Remi, [snip] >Don, > >I had a few thoughts on the paper: >http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/ElectromagneticPropulsion.htm In http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/FeynmanIIpg24a7sections24a2to24a4.jpg it states very explicitly: "The group velocity of the waves is also the speed at which energy is transported along the guide". Which is what I always thought it was. However Andreas Rathke states in his paper "The Energy of a wave is transported at its phase velocity". (See page 1). One of them seems to be wrong. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 26 06:30:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8QDU1Nd020436; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:30:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8QDORks017683; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:24:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:24:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index; b=jWPMznX5kIlbwsmtXqt98efrDI4RpNlVDwCnyqHzVSOdynzeXO4NitOKhXryGHc4TIK4FR2MIlWRv4mP+WZWR1ln9zPr6rI1i8sc2Qe6cbSizhGgKy9qlipb7qX832sMXiH5LQa0p/GtLijSXRRBXf6aew4smh+wpeo83rz6zIU= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: faster than light speeds, CBR etc. Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:24:24 +0100 Message-ID: <003d01c6e16f$172a1090$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <001101c6e112$d97c22d0$f4d2163f@DFBGQZ91> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbhE0ew9QHkirS1TwGBJp5oE7FEeAAWYS7Q Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70834 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle, I imagine you have lots of research resources into this such as organisations and websites. Thomas posted 'metaresearch' which I have booked marked. Frank dropped off a paper today that I'll have a look at at some point. I know when I've understood something because the penny drops. The penny dropped with EPR, infinite speed of information transmission (may be not mass energy as far as I can tell) but acceleration, gravity and curved space-time or ether, I can't get anything to focus in my mind yet apart from very weak hunches. Phenomologically (much as SR or thermodynamics) we can fit theories without knowing what is going on underneath. I can't say what ether is or is made of. I can't explain the 'memory effect' of acceleration and time dilation. I can come up with an analogy for time dilation with the lowering of light speed in a dielectric but not length contraction. Phenomologically at least with the idea of striking out the time delay terms in the Lorentz transform, this simple engineer believes that he can rid GR of curved space-time at least for time dilation which would become a scalar field correction referred to a distant rectangular co-ordinate system grid far from gravitating sources. It would be nice to have a vector field representing length contraction whereupon from this global grid or co-ordinate a local grid could be constructed (taking into account local acceleration and velocity). The results would be the same as SR/GR. Then without the (perhaps) subterfuge of curvilinear co-ordinates I could start looking at things in a 3D + time way permeated by an 'ether'. I could then start looking at the properties of this ether thing, why it does what it does and whether it can be engineered for at first an subspace comms, an impulse drive and then an Alculbierer type Warp Drive (OK, so I'm a trekky). It's a massive task. I'm happy with the superluminal communications protocol and will be able to do very good experiments on that. Remi. -----Original Message----- From: Kyle R. Mcallister [mailto:weir@fdscience.org] Sent: 26 September 2006 03:24 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: faster than light speeds, CBR etc. ---- Original Message ----- From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 3:23 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: faster than light speeds, CBR etc. > There must be a chance of seeing a frame 0 we have been accelerated from > whose time is running fast, not just blue shifted because it is coming > towards us but because we are the moving twin in the paradox and > ultimately > this must be the original rest frame of the universe if one believes the > Big > Bang or even Steady State, no? Do a search for the paradox of the equally accelerated twins, aka the "other" twin paradox, and you will find the conventional explanation for what is going on. While you will likely not hear it presented quite this way, an implication of relativity of simultaneity is that time, in a sense, "propagates" at v = c. It then follows that any effect exceeding c, that is with spacelike separation, is acausal, at least in some frames of reference. It should be noted that there is absolutely no way to determine whether or not there is true relativity of simultaneity or whether there exists absolute simultaneity with any signalling system limited to c. It is only presumed, based on taking the simpler of two explanations, that simultaneity is relative. You will no doubt find in many of the standard texts (probably all in fact) 'spacetime diagrams' which show the student why everything is only relatively simultaneous, and why the paradox of the equally accelerated twins happens. What no one seems to be taught is that almost the entire area of the spacetime diagram of events is completely meaningless! The only way one observer would be able to tell if indeed simultaneity was truly relative with the other observer would be to use a signal travelling at v = infinity. The only communication which can take place between the two observers (or twins in this case) is when they are at the exact same location. If they are separated by any distance, they can only communicate at a speed less than or equal to c, and as such can never determine the nature of the vast area of the spacetime diagram. And yet this completely untestable portion of an X/T chart, charmingly taught as the spacetime diagram, can never be proven to be correct with anything limited to c. When I realized that, there wasn't any going back. The magic of relativity was lost, and now I ask the kinds of questions that the residents of sci.physics.relativity say are the wrong questions to ask. It makes excellent predictions, yes, and has so far been unfalsified. But these self same predictions can be had by dropping the relativity of simultaneity, and establishing that it is absolute. Tangherlini, Selleri, etc. have given different transforms which work identically to special relativity at velocities up to c; where they differ is in the realm beyond c, and in the meaning behind the numbers. In a nutshell: with relativity of simultaneity, if you go faster than light, you end up with time travel, at least in some reference frames. (and in fact you can do some tricks to make it happen in all reference frames, those nasty irresolvable paradoxes). If instead you assume absolute simultaneity (which by definition means there is a preferred reference frame) if you go faster than light, you just get there faster. Time travel is impossible, the arrow of time irreversible. When one considers EPR, Nimtz's experiments, and others of a somewhat similar nature, Occam's Razor begins to dull. > I read somewhere that they (?) can detect absolute motion relative to the > cosmic background radiation because it appears Doppler shifted. Roughly 370km/sec in the direction of the constellation Virgo, if I remember correctly. Some say 600km/sec, but I do not recall where that came from. > Though pops into my head, if the CBR is homogeneous and isotropic and > universal it must have a lot of mass, might that be what EMPROP devices > could be pushing against? 'xcuse the pun, I know its tenuous. Seems to me > that if one has a cavity one could be shielding against it. I dunno, need > to > figure. Anyway I will ask permission to see if I can scan in the article > debunking ZPE from I think the astrophysical journal. Assuming (big assumption because nobody* was there) that the universe began with an explosion at a single point, one could reason that the frame of reference occupied by that point, the part of which did not explode outwards in all directions, is the cosmic rest frame. If so, the CBR (CMB, COB, CIB, etc.) could very well be that same frame of reference. It would be interesting then, I think, to test any possible reactionless drive for efficiency changes depending on its orientation with respect to the direction of our travel against this CBR frame. One other thought, off the deep end: since you mentioned the dreaded ether: if a supposed ether is the cosmic rest frame, and therefore preferred, what happens if somehow a part of that ether were dragged along by "something"? Does that part of the ether now have a separate, non-preferred frame? Or do rulers and clocks behave the exact same way in both the non-dragged and dragged parts? I have wondered about this because the CBR is not entirely homogenous. *Nobody human at least. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 26 06:35:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8QDZPkC023265; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:35:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8QDZM2Q023237; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:35:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:35:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=sD4WGJ8sFRtQaRzV9se8IFtEzMDuHFGQrzwlaQngIqm+t7VPgwNoSjKdDICy+0HRxUtc7Q1XuVqL0Xrc2zFWgWYQbSW6goNyBSD/58nemVrbo/KMzqgqskJ8sdGiMersMOOt+dFW+/ur361FQt8eWi+Q3n+6a26ST0DfZJTiigQ= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:35:21 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: I Think that I will never see... In-Reply-To: <4518E8B6.200@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <000e01c6e0b5$fa1154a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <003301c6e0c1$fc42bd20$6401a8c0@NuDell> <013601c6e0f5$c2847db0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4518E8B6.200@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70835 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 9/26/06, thomas malloy wrote: > Gas is $2.09 in Minneapolis. Yep, project this curve: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp At $1.80 per gal and large dealer incentives, SUVs will be back on the street for Xmas. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 26 06:37:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8QDbkG3024574; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:37:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8QDbjwW024558; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:37:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:37:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:50:18 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70836 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, I was confused by this also. I don't think english is Andres first language, so his paper is a little obtuse at points. What he's saying, after a more careful read on my part, is that he assumes "The Energy of a wave is transported at its phase velocity". is what Roger is claiming. I haven't had time to check the math, but having now at least read Rogers theory paper, I have my doubts about Andres assumption. Look at section 2.2 for example. Roger diagrams the path of a TEM wave inside the microwave cavity. This is the correct model, I have measured this same behavior in a real cavity with real probes, as I had described earlier ( on the Vo. list even, check the archives ). He then goes on to say something like, "if we measure the group velocity by using the axial distance, rather than the true path, we see that group velocity can be much slower at the short end of the tube than the longer ( as in 2.4 )". I will add to that statement by saying that in addition, phase velocity will grow faster by the same amount. In the limit condition, phase velocity will be infinite, and group velocity will be zero. I think Roger has a pretty good handle on the mechanics of what is going on in the wave guide, based on the text at least. What I find a little questionable about Rogers idea is that the system is truly open. Look at the gedanken experiment in fig 2.1. If plate R1 and R2 are physically connected, there ought to be net motion in the direction of F1. That seems OK to me. But how about if the transmitter Tx is connected to the same frame? Now I wonder... but that's basically Rogers claim. K. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:57 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:21:56 +0100: Hi Remi, [snip] >Don, > >I had a few thoughts on the paper: >http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/ElectromagneticPropulsion.htm In http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/FeynmanIIpg24a7sections24a2to24a4.jpg it states very explicitly: "The group velocity of the waves is also the speed at which energy is transported along the guide". Which is what I always thought it was. However Andreas Rathke states in his paper "The Energy of a wave is transported at its phase velocity". (See page 1). One of them seems to be wrong. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 26 11:17:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8QIHKsB018818; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:17:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8QIHH5V018792; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:17:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:17:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=X0M2mCw3aS8Jyr2JI1W32EY2d1XRkfhK3dHSxnXwxZxevLK6NT8hjcDMz8/FJczRywuoxfhZ1Ryo7wLSjTWkN4+yPmqj/TqIvQX6Cp4prUA7lRhf4sDP4hAycm5oc+VZ2ks8xfu2M02JSA/onU74+tZOd7vhNY262ZqXJ4vxA0I= ; Message-ID: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:17:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70837 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Aquaculture for energy Status: O X-Status: The opening speaker at the Conference on Future Energy (COFE II), 2006 on Saturday morning was Dennis Bushnell, Chief Scientist at NASA Langley. Bushnell gave a brilliant overview of the need for renewable energy solutions, especially the most promising biomass technology in which he is involved: biomass farming. Certain species of extraordinarily prolific halophylic plants can be grown using sea water, and then converted into fuel like biodiesel - and at the same time reduce atmospheric CO2 and increase fishing stocks. This can be accomplished in deserts close to oceans - or in the oceans themselves. Africa and Australia, in particular, have vast deserts next to oceans. The Gulf of Mexico is a prime location for US aquaculture. Précis of: "Post-Petroleum Energetics Including Seawater Agriculture" by Dennis M. Bushnell. Powerpoint and PDF available from the COFE site: The Presentation surveys the Post Petroleum Energetics Landscape - sources, storage and conservation. Sources include biologics, PV, [Solar] Hydrogen, Advanced/ "Ubiquitous" Geothermal and various classes of "nuclear". Biologics are particularly interesting for the shorter term with "Seawater Agriculture/ Irrigation" utilizing Halophytes grown on "Wastelands" obviating the usual Biofuel/Bioenergy constraints of arable land and fresh water shortages. Scalable bioreactors minimize transportation economic burdens and enhance overall energy efficiency. Conservation approaches with major leverage include Thermal Diodes, CNT Computing, CNT-Enabled weight reductions and the emerging "Tele-Everything" mantras. Nanotechnology is increasingly important and enabling across the entire future energetic spectrum. Dennis M. Bushnell is the Chief Scientist at NASA Langley Research Center. He is responsible for the technical oversight and Advanced Program formulation for a major NASA Research Center with technical emphasis in the areas of Atmospheric Sciences and Structures, Materials, Acoustics, Flight Electronics/Control/Software, Instruments, Aerodynamics, Aerothermodynamics, Hypersonic Airbreathing Propulsion, Computational Sciences and Systems Optimization for Aeronautics, Spacecraft, Exploration and Space Access . Bushnell has 43 years experience as Research Scientist, Section Head, Branch Head, Associate Division Chief and Chief Scientist. Technical Specialties include Flow Modeling and Control across the Speed Range, Advanced Configuration Aeronautics, Aeronautical Facilities and Hypersonic Airbreathing Propulsion . Author of 247 publications/major presentations, Member of National Academy of Engineering , Fellow of ASME, AIAA and the Royal Aeronautical Society, Holder of 5 patents, Recipient of numerous awards including: Royal Aeronautical Society, NASA Exceptional Scientific Achievement and Outstanding Leadership Medals and the Distinguished Research Scientist Award. Pretty fair credentials, I'd say... and he is right-on about the need to move immediately into energy-aquaculture. We can easily replace a substantial portion of petroleum use within twenty years, and totally eliminate the Arab world as supplier - if we will follow Bushnell's advice - starting NOW. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 26 11:43:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8QIh2aa000304; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:43:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8QIh0Qv032751; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:43:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:43:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060926142438.03e309f0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:42:58 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aquaculture for energy In-Reply-To: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70838 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Pretty fair credentials, I'd say... and he is right-on about the >need to move immediately into energy-aquaculture. Well, if it works, okay -- maybe. But as I said, we should be extremely cautious about large scale schemes that replace existing biota, especially with monocultures. So far that has caused unending havoc in both land and ocean ecosystems, such as the replacement of most fish with jellyfish world-wide. > We can easily replace a substantial portion of petroleum use > within twenty years, We could easily replace 90% of it one year, starting NOW, using only existing technology. Just do something like what FDR did in January 1942: 1. Tell the auto industry that we are in a state of war (which we sure are), and order it to shut down immediately and retool. I mean close it down that instant. FDR ordered told them not to sell a single car for the duration of the war, and he confiscated their entire inventory for military purposes. 2. Ban the sale of conventional ICE automobiles in the U.S., immediately. 3. Order the industry, both foreign and domestic, to supply only plug-in hybrid vehicles that get at least 100 mpg during average commuting in 2007 and 8, and no less than 200 mpg after 2009. 4. Destroy all remaining stocks of unfinished conventional ICE engines. 5. Ban the use of existing SUVs and other passenger vehicles that gets less than 20 mpg. Confiscate and destroy them all. Pay the owners the blue-book depreciated value only. Hey, there's a war on! Problem solved. The U.S. would soon have enough excess oil production to join OPEC. This is nowhere near as drastic as it sounds. Of course it would cost billions, but nowhere near as much as it costs for us to finance terrorism and war against ourselves. After we do this, we would quickly earn back all the money it costs, in reduced fuel expenses alone. Present political leaders do not have the guts to do things like this, but Lincoln or FDR would. For that matter if I were president I would do it in a heartbeat, and I would say -- as FDR did -- this is a war emergency and I am acting as commander-in-chief. I think it would work and I think whoever did it would be the most popular leader in the western world a few years later. Make no small plans, sez me. This would also drastically reduce CO2 emissions, which NASA and the Japanese press have headlined today. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 26 13:59:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8QKx4HO002833; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:59:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8QKx1I8002791; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:59:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:59:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000f01c6e1ae$9160ff10$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060926142438.03e309f0@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 16:58:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70839 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Jed's Edict Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aquaculture for energy > Jones Beene wrote: > >>Pretty fair credentials, I'd say... and he is right-on about the need to >>move immediately into energy-aquaculture. > > Well, if it works, okay -- maybe. But as I said, we should be extremely > cautious about large scale schemes that replace existing biota, especially > with monocultures. So far that has caused unending havoc in both land and > ocean ecosystems, such as the replacement of most fish with jellyfish > world-wide. Point well taken. Live evolves and monocultures are vulnerable to sudden wipeouts. > >> We can easily replace a substantial portion of petroleum use within >> twenty years, Or do you just change the place where the fuel is burned? Do you expect to derive all that energy from wind and PV in 20 years without a massive investment and construction? > > We could easily replace 90% of it one year, starting NOW, using only > existing technology. Just do something like what FDR did in January 1942: > > 1. Tell the auto industry that we are in a state of war (which we sure > are), and order it to shut down immediately and retool. I mean close it > down that instant. FDR ordered told them not to sell a single car for the > duration of the war, and he confiscated their entire inventory for > military purposes. But people were employed anyhow and stuff was built, draining resources. > > 2. Ban the sale of conventional ICE automobiles in the U.S., immediately. > > 3. Order the industry, both foreign and domestic, to supply only plug-in > hybrid vehicles that get at least 100 mpg during average commuting in 2007 > and 8, and no less than 200 mpg after 2009. Sounds good, but have you *properly* calculated the vast infrastructure increase in electric power plans burning (?) to supply all those commuter cars at night? A just what will you do about the essential network of long haul trucking after you have banned ICEs? Will your edict disallow automobile trips over 100 miles, the range of batteries? Oh yes, there are hybrids, so the gasoline/ethanol infrastructure will be retained. > > 4. Destroy all remaining stocks of unfinished conventional ICE engines. Including lawnmowers, motorcycles and water skis? > > 5. Ban the use of existing SUVs and other passenger vehicles that gets > less than 20 mpg. Confiscate and destroy them all. Pay the owners the > blue-book depreciated value only. Hey, there's a war on! And in our diffuse communiuties, how will a low-wage earner be able to afford one of the newfangled cars after his nil-value clunker is gone? Who will pay his taxi bill? Or will you also mandate neew fleets of buses? Or will the riderchip be too low to justify? > > Problem solved. The U.S. would soon have enough excess oil production to > join OPEC. This is nowhere near as drastic as it sounds. Of course it > would cost billions, but nowhere near as much as it costs for us to > finance terrorism and war against ourselves. After we do this, we would > quickly earn back all the money it costs, in reduced fuel expenses alone. > > Present political leaders do not have the guts to do things like this, but > Lincoln or FDR would. For that matter if I were president I would do it in > a heartbeat, and I would say -- as FDR did -- this is a war emergency and > I am acting as commander-in-chief. I think it would work and I think > whoever did it would be the most popular leader in the western world a few > years later. > > Make no small plans, sez me. > > This would also drastically reduce CO2 emissions, which NASA and the > Japanese press have headlined today. > > - Jed ---------------------------------- There is no simple solution to this and in the long run a market economy will have its painful way in the allocation of resources. The crux is that the environment may change much faster that markets and customs can adapt, inviting edicts of the type Jed suggests. We have a profound lack of wisdom to deal with these situations. The only long term hope I see in all this is in the BLP technology. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 26 14:17:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8QLH908012030; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:17:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8QLH7qY012012; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:17:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:17:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,221,1157342400"; d="scan'208"; a="742536262:sNHT18957980" Message-ID: <498682514.1159305418854.JavaMail.root@fepweb06> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:16:58 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Jed's Edict MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70840 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---- Mike Carrell wrote: ... > The only long term hope I see in all this is in the BLP technology. > > Mike Carrell > Speaking of BLP, I haven't heard a peep out of them for months now. Anybody know what's going on there? I'd like to think all this silence is due to the fact that figuratively speaking we're in the eye of the hurricane, but I'm just a romantic at heart. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 26 15:33:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8QMX1k0014793; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:33:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8QMWxr4014761; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:32:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:32:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c6e1bc$fbd3c9a0$0200000a@dell> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060926142438.03e309f0@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aquaculture for energy Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:41:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70841 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aquaculture for energy > ... and other passenger vehicles that > gets less than 20 mpg. Confiscate and destroy them all. Pay the > owners the blue-book depreciated value only. Hey, there's a war on! You want to get shot? Low income people in the 'hoods who can only afford old clunkers to get back and forth from work (thus providing the workforce for the economy you seek to further devastate with the Final Solution to the ICE Problem) will not stand by and allow you to take their old Caprice Classic. I would especially love to see what would happen if you try to take John Boy and Donny Bob's muscle cars from the deep south. If you want a solution, you have to make it something that will be reasonably easy for the little guys, who are the guys who really keep the wheels turning. If you yank their cars and tell them they have to buy a brand new $20,000+ hybrid, you will cripple our already floundering economy, you will knock America completely out of the running with anyone else, and you will start either a revolution or a civil war. Try this shit in Buffalo and the blacks and hispanics will kill you. And there would be at least one white guy there standing on their side: yours truly. The solution is to make a crash program to develop a fuel which can replace gasoline, be reasonably cheap, and preferrably something we can use, with limited modifications, in existing cars for the duration, until the newer, better ones burning the completely clean "stuff" are available on the used car market at low prices for the little guys. > Problem solved. The U.S. would soon have enough excess oil production > to join OPEC. This is nowhere near as drastic as it sounds. You've gone completely sideways man! (Fear and Loathing, sorry.) How much money do you make? Lets see how bad this will hurt YOU. I thought you were a bleeding heart liberal who loves the poor little guys. You are starting to sound like Bush with a vengeance, "stay the course and fight the war on pollution! Imminent threat!" Yes its a problem, but just like the war on terror, people are blowing things out of proportion and ignoring the obvious, simpler and less painful solutions. > Of course > it would cost billions, but nowhere near as much as it costs for us > to finance terrorism and war against ourselves. After we do this, we > would quickly earn back all the money it costs, in reduced fuel expenses alone. Oh I bet. > Present political leaders do not have the guts to do things like > this, but Lincoln or FDR would. For that matter if I were president I > would do it in a heartbeat, and I would say -- as FDR did -- this is > a war emergency and I am acting as commander-in-chief. I think it > would work and I think whoever did it would be the most popular > leader in the western world a few years later. Posthumously most likely. Such a president would not survive his or her first term. We are not going to all die in 10 years from CO2. For the record I don't give a damn what happens to the polar bears. When they start building cities and put the first bear on the Moon, maybe then I will. Until then this is still the land of the free (sort of...) so you can have my car keys when you pry them from my cold dead hands. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 26 15:35:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8QMZMAu016043; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:35:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8QMZLYV016025; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:35:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:35:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003201c6e1bd$4e011480$0200000a@dell> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:44:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70842 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: SUVs Status: O X-Status: For the record, I do support not allowing the manufacture of NEW SUVS. But to take already existing and owned cars? No. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 26 15:38:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8QMccm3018310; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:38:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8QMcaGK018276; Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:38:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:38:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003801c6e1bd$c2943840$0200000a@dell> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060926142438.03e309f0@mindspring.com> <002201c6e1bc$fbd3c9a0$0200000a@dell> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aquaculture for energy Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:47:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <59WrJC.A.XdE.svaGFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70843 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:41 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aquaculture for energy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:42 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aquaculture for energy > > > ... and other passenger vehicles that > > gets less than 20 mpg. Confiscate and destroy them all. Pay the > > owners the blue-book depreciated value only. Hey, there's a war on! > > You want to get shot? For clarification: I meant this to say, that if this was tried, the person who tried would get shot by the poor from the inner city. I myself and not threatening to shoot anyone. So Jed and all, please do not take it as a threat, I am not that stupid. Nevertheless, many here (you know who you are) do not read what I write in its entirety and post without thinking. So, I am clearing this matter up before it becomes a problem or interpreted as a flame by those who don't think very carefully. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 05:50:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8RCo9Mg022163; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 05:50:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8RCo6tc022130; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 05:50:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 05:50:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=YL+9NbCABPy5i+j2mBd0W3GgYQ+GCjBAMtfA4Q8E4zZk3LB9wCdyXNnYxxnTuWkwe1CSv3Natdsr7Ah99JLU5sZPhS+TLKkeUPccuy1IL+yUuFw5fu+vMugDLqBq5dpou8GPdn94M5zApW+o31TqyikpuVZdNk5gNjXoqwnFCQg= Message-ID: <538fa8f10609270550x77210775yf8923868e7bc327d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 15:50:03 +0300 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_27946_22469007.1159361403682" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70844 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_27946_22469007.1159361403682 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Looked through the Webster's Unabridged Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language. Apparently, Centrifugal force is "center-fleeing". The opposite of Center is, apparently, "Edge". Centripetal Force is the opposite of Centrifugal force, therefore Centripetal Force is "Edge-fleeing" (center-concentrating.) It would seem that this edge-fleeing, centripetal force, has, shapewise, direct connections to the fibonacci ratio, and the harmonic series / music of the spheres ( Pythagoras / Kepler ). Walter Schauberger, Viktor Schauberger's son, put together Pythagoras and Kepler, and realized that his father's "cycloid spiral space curve" (that Walter spent the rest of his life putting down to physics, math, and proper science, as opposed to his father's more intuitive words), was actually based on the harmonic series of Pythagoras and Kepler, and mapped it into the Hyperbolic Cone. imho the end result was the realization that nature works on non-euclidian geometry instead of euclidian geometry. euclidian geometry is apparently what our centrifugal / explosive / heat-based / straight line / circle -based technology currently uses for propulsion and energy-creation. Since I don't have what i wrote down from the webster's encyclopedic dictionary, I'll go and see the Merriam Webster dictionary. it claims this: Centrifugal : proceeding or acting in a direction away from a center or axis Centrifugal Force: the apparent force that is felt by an object moving in a curved path that acts outwardly away from the center of rotation *Centripetal Force:* the force that is necessary to keep an object moving in a curved path and that is directed inward toward the center of rotation >From your very nice (!!) web archives, i have found these messages: >Frank, the spiral ring helix observed in a water vortex is, as Schauberger stated, a " reverse flow". Centrifugal and centripetal forces within the confines of the parabolic >cone of the liquid spiral scream to us that the inner face " must" be smooth. It is NOT, it is ringed with spirals. Magnetic lines of force acting on metals shavings may not >show the opposing force like a water vortex simply because they ARE one stage down, Whilst I can't claim I know the difference between the parabolic cone, and the hyperbolic cone ( http://www.sectioaurea.com/sectioaurea/spirali.gif ) , might there not be a ready explanation in biomimetics and fluid dynamics, as to the possibility of there being a centripetal, cooling, friction/reducing, suction-inducing, concentrating, up-building force, to offset the centrifugal heating, friction-increasing, pressure-inducing, decaying, destroying force? the Photophoresis experiments of Professor Felix Ehrenhaft also seem to instill in this reader the thought that there is a connection between centripetal vortical movement, and the "spinning around its own axis" of Ehrenhaft, the rising egg experiment of schauberger+kokaly and so on. please share any thoughts on centripetal / vortical / inwards movement and the possibility of using that for "sucking" material forwards, instead of trying to centrifugally "blow" material forwards, whilst meeting immense friction and degradation.. Schauberger also seems to have designed many suction-based turbines, which are of the non-euclidian geometry (the issue here is that when he was building stuff in 1920s - 1950s, there was no 3d-modeling software, no computer-guided laser-cutting tools for cutting metal - an dtherefore it has been quite difficult to replicate the very natural, spiraline shapes that he was after). there is a real poverty of proper information online on Viktor Schauberger. websites such as rexresearch, keelynet, peswiki, frank germano's website, and others, do have the inklings of it, but the generic information on schauberger tends to focus on "quick-fix" areas of interest, i.e. "how he was suppressed" "how he build a ufo for the nazis in ww2" and other such non-information. the deeper realizations of Viktor and Walter Schauberger, however, seem to have escaped the "wow! hurrah!"-reaction-looking people who skim the websites looking for a "woah! cool! too bad the government"-blah which is non-constructive. this is one of the reasons why there are hardly any artifacts of Viktor Schauberger built. too many sitters, instead of creative,intuitive,doers. also, your list had this brilliant thing: >One of the great minds of this century, an outsider to established science, has recognized the folly of this view and coined a term for the antidote. He calls it syntropy. In >his book "Cosmography", R. Buckminster Fuller writes: "The reader will discover that the inexorable course of the gradual running down of the energy of the universe - >that is, entropy - is only part of the picture. Entropy has a complementary phase, which we designated syntropy". >We can now assert that syntropy is real, and that it is closely associated with the second kind of motion discussed above, with the centripedal, the vortex motion. ... >In an article based on the research of Viktor Schauberger, regarding the functions of vortex motion, Schaffer writes in 1972: >"If the second law (of thermodynamics) does not hold true in the case of vortex motion, one could postulate the following cycle: >Heat --> Vortex --> Motion--> Friction-->Heat >Vortices therefore should be able to change heat energy into motive energy. This would necessitate an acceleration of low and a cooling effect. Both of these can be >observed in the case of vortices. ...... >"The descriptive language used by physicists is mathematics. It is adequate to describe a number of observed phenomena, but depending on what phenomena is to be >described, physicists conveniently switch mathematics, thereby changing their whole frame of reference. There is no one theory that can adequately describe all the >forces know to exists and the search for a unified field theory is running into serious problems. Joseph Hassleberger" thank you so very much for this list existing. i had no idea that one of my personal heroes, buckminster fuller, had noted that there was an opposite for entropy. this "syntropy", coupled in with the suggestions by a few people, that a vortex creates "negative entropy" (i freely admit, i dont know what that is - is that syntropy?), and with the realization that Viktor Schauberger was one of the first Biomimetic (?) intuitive engineers , should mean that eventually we'll escape from the non-information and start realizing that the time is nigh that schauberger moves from being considered fairy tales, to being one of the more important people in carge of developing ecological technology. I have yesterday created a video-clip of the egg rising inside a water-container, when a vortex is created at the surface of the water. I asked on some finnish science-forums, but mostly got ridicule and nothing else. would you guys be able to explain why exactly does the egg start spinning around its own axis, and then rise, because of the vortical movement caused by spinning a spoon at the top? I really hope this email isn't taken as 1) troll 2) annoyance I would love to pose some more questions, since it seems that schauberger has never really been reasonably connected with "fluid dynamics" "biomimetics" and other such, newer branches of science. I am starving of information, and tired of the "quick fix" people who just want another article on "c()nspiracy, ufo, alien, nazi, ww2" intrigue. Please, from the bottom of my heart, please help. ------=_Part_27946_22469007.1159361403682 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Looked through the Webster's Unabridged Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language.

Apparently, Centrifugal force is "center-fleeing".
The opposite of Center is, apparently, "Edge".
Centripetal Force is the opposite of Centrifugal force, therefore Centripetal Force is "Edge-fleeing" (center-concentrating.)

It would seem that  this edge-fleeing, centripetal force, has, shapewise, direct connections to the fibonacci ratio, and the harmonic series  / music of the spheres ( Pythagoras / Kepler ).
Walter Schauberger, Viktor Schauberger's son,  put together Pythagoras and Kepler, and realized that his father's "cycloid spiral space curve" (that Walter spent the rest of his life putting down to physics, math, and proper science, as opposed to his father's more intuitive words), was actually based on the harmonic series of Pythagoras and Kepler, and mapped it into the Hyperbolic Cone. imho the end result was the realization that nature works on  non-euclidian geometry instead of euclidian geometry. euclidian geometry is apparently  what  our centrifugal / explosive / heat-based / straight line / circle -based technology currently uses for propulsion and energy-creation.

Since I don't have what i wrote down from the webster's encyclopedic dictionary, I'll go and see the Merriam Webster dictionary. it claims this:
Centrifugal : proceeding or acting in a direction away from a center or axis
Centrifugal Force: the apparent force that is felt by an object moving in a curved path that acts outwardly away from the center of rotation
Centripetal Force: the force that is necessary to keep an object moving in a curved path and that is directed inward toward the center of rotation <a string on the end of which a stone is whirled about exerts centripetal force on the stone>

From your very nice (!!) web archives, i have found these messages:
>Frank, the spiral ring helix observed in a water vortex is, as Schauberger stated, a " reverse flow". Centrifugal and centripetal forces within the confines of the parabolic >cone of the liquid spiral scream to us that the inner face " must" be smooth. It is NOT, it is ringed with spirals. Magnetic lines of force acting on metals shavings may not >show the opposing force like  a water vortex  simply because they ARE one stage down,

Whilst I can't claim I know the difference between the parabolic cone, and the hyperbolic cone ( http://www.sectioaurea.com/sectioaurea/spirali.gif ) ,  might there not be a  ready explanation in biomimetics and fluid dynamics, as to the possibility of there being a centripetal, cooling, friction/reducing, suction-inducing, concentrating, up-building force,  to  offset  the centrifugal  heating, friction-increasing, pressure-inducing, decaying, destroying force?

the Photophoresis experiments of Professor Felix Ehrenhaft also seem to instill in this reader the thought that there is a connection between  centripetal vortical movement, and the "spinning around its own axis" of Ehrenhaft,  the rising egg experiment of schauberger+kokaly  and so on.

please share any thoughts on centripetal / vortical / inwards movement and the possibility of using that for "sucking" material forwards, instead of trying to centrifugally "blow" material forwards, whilst meeting immense friction and degradation..

Schauberger also seems to have designed many suction-based turbines, which are  of the non-euclidian geometry (the issue here is that when he was building stuff in 1920s - 1950s, there was no 3d-modeling software, no computer-guided laser-cutting tools for cutting metal  - an dtherefore it has been quite difficult to replicate the very natural, spiraline shapes that he was after).

there is a real poverty of proper information  online  on Viktor Schauberger. websites such as rexresearch, keelynet, peswiki, frank germano's website, and others, do have the inklings of it, but the generic information on schauberger tends to focus on "quick-fix" areas of interest, i.e. "how he was suppressed" "how he build a ufo for the nazis in ww2" and other such  non-information. the deeper realizations of Viktor and Walter Schauberger, however, seem to have escaped the "wow! hurrah!"-reaction-looking people who skim the websites looking for a "woah! cool! too bad the government"-blah which is non-constructive.

this is one of the reasons why there are hardly any artifacts of Viktor Schauberger  built. too many sitters, instead of creative,intuitive,doers.

also, your list had this brilliant thing:

>One of the great minds of this century, an outsider to established science, has recognized the folly of this view and coined a term for the antidote.  He calls it syntropy. In >his book "Cosmography", R. Buckminster Fuller writes: "The reader will discover that the inexorable course of the gradual running down of the energy of the universe - >that is, entropy - is only part of the picture. Entropy has a complementary phase, which we designated syntropy".
>We can now assert that syntropy is real, and that it is closely associated with the second kind of motion discussed above, with the centripedal, the vortex motion. ...
>In an article based on the research of Viktor Schauberger, regarding the functions of vortex motion, Schaffer writes in 1972:
>"If the second law (of thermodynamics) does not hold true in the case of vortex motion, one could postulate the following cycle:
>Heat --> Vortex --> Motion--> Friction-->Heat
>Vortices therefore should be able to change heat energy into motive energy. This would necessitate an acceleration of low and a cooling effect.  Both of these can be >observed in the case of vortices. ......
>"The descriptive language used by physicists is mathematics.  It is adequate to describe a number of observed phenomena, but depending on what phenomena is to be >described, physicists conveniently switch mathematics, thereby changing their whole frame of reference.  There is no one theory that can adequately describe all the >forces know to exists and the search for a unified field theory is running into serious problems. Joseph Hassleberger"

thank you so very much for this list existing. i had no idea that one of my personal heroes, buckminster fuller, had noted that there was an opposite for entropy.
this "syntropy", coupled in with the suggestions by a few people, that a vortex creates "negative entropy" (i freely admit, i dont know what that is - is that syntropy?), and with the realization that Viktor Schauberger was one of the first Biomimetic (?) intuitive engineers  , should mean that eventually we'll escape from the non-information and start realizing that the time is nigh that schauberger moves from being considered fairy tales, to being one of the more important people in carge of  developing ecological technology.

I have yesterday created a video-clip of the egg rising inside a water-container, when a vortex is created at the surface of the water. I asked on some finnish science-forums, but mostly got ridicule and nothing else. would you guys be able to explain why exactly does the egg start spinning around its own axis, and then rise, because of the vortical movement caused by spinning a spoon at the top?

I really hope this email isn't taken as 1) troll 2) annoyance
I would love to pose some more questions, since it seems that  schauberger has never really been reasonably connected with "fluid dynamics" "biomimetics" and other such, newer branches of science.

I am starving of information, and tired of the "quick fix" people who just want another article on "c()nspiracy, ufo, alien, nazi, ww2" intrigue.

Please, from the bottom of my heart, please help.


------=_Part_27946_22469007.1159361403682-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 08:22:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8RFLiwK011025; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 08:21:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8RFLgcH011003; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 08:21:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 08:21:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001401c6e248$97e72b30$53037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]: Re: Esa Rucho Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:21:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6E21E.ADD65940"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70845 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6E21E.ADD65940 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6E21E.ADD65940" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6E21E.ADD65940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankEsa wrote.. >I really hope this email isn't taken as 1) troll 2) annoyance=20 >I would love to pose some more questions,=20 >I am starving of information, and tired of the "quick fix" people Howdy Esa, A lenghty discourse from you. Thanks!. Ask your specific questions, = thats what Vorts is all about. Is your vodeo clip available to send? I = would like to view your egg test if you wish to send a clip to = weprod@cmaaccess.com Richard=20 ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6E21E.ADD65940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Esa wrote..
 
>I really hope this email isn't taken as 1) troll 2) annoyance =
>I=20 would love to pose some more questions,

>I am starving of information, and tired of the "quick fix" = people

Howdy Esa,

A lenghty discourse from you. Thanks!. Ask your specific questions, = thats=20 what Vorts is all about. Is your vodeo clip available to send? I would = like to=20 view your egg test if you wish to send a clip to    weprod@cmaaccess.com

Richard 

------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6E21E.ADD65940-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6E21E.ADD65940 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c6e248$968ddcc0$53037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6E21E.ADD65940-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 09:17:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8RGHJOk008744; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:17:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8RGHHWJ008713; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:17:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:17:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <451AA3D8.2080507@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:16:24 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Jed's Edict References: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060926142438.03e309f0@mindspring.com> <000f01c6e1ae$9160ff10$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <000f01c6e1ae$9160ff10$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70846 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aquaculture for energy > >> Jones Beene wrote: >> >> Make no small plans, sez me. >> >> This would also drastically reduce CO2 emissions, which NASA and the >> Japanese press have headlined today. >> >> - Jed > I keep coming back to our being able to run the country on the biodiesel produced on 61,000 square miles of algae ponds in the deserts. IMHO is, if the elite want to do something creative about the energy supply, they would be doing it. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 09:55:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8RGspMx030966; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:54:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8RGsoLK030951; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:54:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:54:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060927121122.03ef9dc8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:54:41 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Jed's Edict In-Reply-To: <000f01c6e1ae$9160ff10$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060926142438.03e309f0@mindspring.com> <000f01c6e1ae$9160ff10$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70847 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Let us put this in perspective. On Sept. 11, 2006, Bush said: "The war against this enemy is more than a military conflict. It is the decisive ideological struggle of the 21st century, and the calling of our generation." I do not agree with that statement, but if I were president and I sincerely believe that, then I would consider closing down the entire auto industry for six months or year to be a reasonable and appropriate response. If this is a decisive struggle we must act decisively. Wars are not won by half-measures. The decisive struggle of the 20th century, WWII, cost 50 million lives. I think it should be done, but not only because of this war. Some of the steps I recommended were perhaps a little extreme, such as confiscating all cars that get less than 20 miles per gallon, and paying the owners only blue book value. We should pay them enough to purchase a new car. Of course these steps would cost a lot of money in the first stages. But again, let us put that in perspective: the war in Iraq is expected to cost between $1 trillion and $2 trillion in the long-term. For that kind of money, we could completely rebuild the automobile industry from scratch and supply the entire world energy demand with wind turbines and other conventional alternative energy sources. I would pay for this program was an emergency wartime $3 per gallon surcharge on gasoline. Mike Carrell wrote: >>> We can easily replace a substantial portion of petroleum use >>> within twenty years, > >Or do you just change the place where the fuel is burned? Do you >expect to derive all that energy from wind and PV in 20 years >without a massive investment and construction? We would not need much more energy. Electric cars are 2 to 3 times more energy efficient than conventional gasoline ICE-only models. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NRELenergyover.pdf >>FDR ordered told them not to sell a single car for the duration of >>the war, and he confiscated their entire inventory for military purposes. > >But people were employed anyhow and stuff was built, draining resources. They would be plenty busy! Refitting the entire automobile industry would be a huge undertaking, and I bet they would do it at a breakneck pace, in six months or year. Of course the government would have to offer financial support. We would impose the same rules on foreign suppliers but Toyota would manage the cut-over in a few months >>3. Order the industry, both foreign and domestic, to supply only >>plug-in hybrid vehicles that get at least 100 mpg during average >>commuting in 2007 and 8, and no less than 200 mpg after 2009. > >Sounds good, but have you *properly* calculated the vast >infrastructure increase in electric power plans burning (?) to >supply all those commuter cars at night? Yes, I have. We have been over this before in this forum. It would be like most families running at 2 kW space heater at night. It would require no expansion of the power infrastructure, although of course it would burn more fuel. > A just what will you do about the essential network of long haul > trucking after you have banned ICEs? Note that I have not banned ICEs in this scenario. I specify plug-in hybrids. Trucks can also be made with plug-in hybrids, although since they travel further per day they drain the batteries quickly and depend more upon the ICE. > Will your edict disallow automobile trips over 100 miles, the > range of batteries? Oh yes, there are hybrids, so the > gasoline/ethanol infrastructure will be retained. Exactly. >>4. Destroy all remaining stocks of unfinished conventional ICE engines. > >Including lawnmowers, motorcycles and water skis? No. They do not use a significant fraction of total gasoline consumption. >And in our diffuse communiuties, how will a low-wage earner be able >to afford one of the newfangled cars after his nil-value clunker is >gone? Who will pay his taxi bill? The emergency wartime tax would be used to cover this kind of thing, just as it did in WWII. Many people were dependent upon automobiles in the 1940s. Tires and gasoline were rationed, but people somehow survived. I am 100% confident that Americans are still as capable of sacrifice and innovation as they were in 1942, or 1862. You only have to call upon them to do what must be done, and appeal to the better angels of their nature, as politicians said back then. (I do wonder sometimes whether we are still as capable of speaking and understanding English!) >There is no simple solution to this . . . I say there is, and I say we could do it in 6 month to a year, if we had to. When Hitler menaced us and sank hundreds of ships just offshore we found thousands of solutions to technical problems more difficult than this. >and in the long run a market economy will have its painful way in >the allocation of resources. . . . Economics and capitalism are fine as far as they go, but they do not go far. You do not see capitalists inventing airplanes, the computer or the internet, or investing in cold fusion, or discovering Newton's laws. The people who invented these things did so because they wanted to, and because they could, and they were geniuses. They were paid practically nothing. The primal forces of human nature that create and drive civilization have nothing to do with money or practical concerns. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 10:10:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8RHABtg009557; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:10:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8RHA9UX009516; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:10:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:10:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060927125929.04086c20@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:10:09 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Jed's Edict In-Reply-To: <451AA3D8.2080507@usfamily.net> References: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060926142438.03e309f0@mindspring.com> <000f01c6e1ae$9160ff10$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <451AA3D8.2080507@usfamily.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70848 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > keep coming back to our being able to run the country on the > biodiesel produced on 61,000 square miles of algae ponds in the deserts. I recall that ~10,000 square miles of solar thermal generators could supply all of the energy in the U.S., not just liquid fuel. I will bet this would not only take up much less space, it would also be far cheaper. The reason this takes less space is not complicated. Plant photosynthesis year-round in North America converts roughly 0.1% of the solar energy into chemical fuel, whereas solar thermal generators are 20 to 30% efficient. In other words, it works 200 times better. That is why all biomass schemes are inferior to direct use of sunlight or wind. In addition, wind has a huge advantage over sunlight: it is narrowly concentrated in some areas and not others, like water flowing through a river. The overall total energy produced by wind is the same as the total energy from sunlight, which is no coincidence, as Deffeyes pointed out. Wind has another obvious advantage: it is mechanical energy that converts easily and efficiently into electricity. The only thing better is falling water, which is why water power was the first major source of industrial energy on land. Wind power was by far the oldest and most potent source of energy at sea, of course. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 11:18:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8RII6Qc018712; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:18:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8RII4tX018692; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:18:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:18:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <451ABFE8.6020300@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:16:08 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <538fa8f10609270550x77210775yf8923868e7bc327d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10609270550x77210775yf8923868e7bc327d@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70849 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: questions about Schauberger technology Status: RO X-Status: Esa Ruoho wrote: > > > I am starving of information, and tired of the "quick fix" people who > just want another article on "c()nspiracy, ufo, alien, nazi, ww2" > intrigue. > > Please, from the bottom of my heart, please help. > What's your agenda Esa? I corresponded with a man who has authored quite a website on Schauberger technology. I'm sure that one of the Vortexians will remember his name and post it. If you have studied the subject in depth you will have read about his Respine. This man wanted to build one. As with any technological development, there are problems. For one thing it resembles a jet engine, I think that problems arising from an attempt to fabricate a jet engine analogue are self explanatory. Then there is the self stimulated LENR question. I'm making the assumption that the Respine produces LENR events, because the energy has to come from somewhere. The reports of experimenters who built Respines, speak of explosions. If you have read any on the LENR literature, you've heard the stories of heat after death (disconnection of the electrical current feeding the reaction) and the unexplained explosions (Muzano is a classic case in point). Well if you fabricate the aforementioned jet engine analogue and have an explosion, you'd better have it contained in a poured concrete enclosure. Otherwise you will end up like the French scientist who built the Respine, he died. The bottom line is unless you know of a multi million dollar source who is willing to fund this research, you'd better confine your efforts to reading the books which a Google search will locate. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 12:28:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8RJRsIl025230; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:27:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8RJRrBv025205; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:27:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:27:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=f9RkswApK8RHO9W25mjda74ta8npHGl34LOfNeYbjGSxBXD39P6PTtnW55IopSb8MH1lZiR6uuuG4YOrMAzWK/LsLWmEyvwrTu/tTzh/e+VC1UJ3cS5yPYeT8U/cCEBxPM145DUK+DwSc0JGAzBHdnkH6PH+SVMagSwTP0dKO8g= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 15:27:51 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10609270550x77210775yf8923868e7bc327d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <538fa8f10609270550x77210775yf8923868e7bc327d@mail.gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70850 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 9/27/06, Esa Ruoho wrote: > would you guys be able to explain why exactly does the egg start > spinning around its own axis, and then rise, because of the vortical > movement caused by spinning a spoon at the top? I believe this is caused by the effect named after Henri Marie Coanda. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 13:23:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8RKNLUp023307; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:23:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8RKNJ7H023282; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:23:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:23:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Lu4maLi3sVicI6Kd5WUYTmHxncTZjMB85eEOD/Ms46P9x9HADjyinptDs+kbIUoLnlvMaXwDNUHzTbfq74Lts5515i2z8h2m4cGpTrZf0R0kOzW73WVJ0+dETdS5mrqwa0anh9zJZM67AdwN0L4boUXLgwT7NHFaZPE22eEYwSs= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:23:14 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_41538_26244334.1159388594678" References: <538fa8f10609270550x77210775yf8923868e7bc327d@mail.gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70851 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_41538_26244334.1159388594678 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Taking 'Vortex' more literally than most. Here is a question though, is a vortex just rotation of fluids, a fluid moving in a circle which in in effect a single dimension of movement. Or is it only when you have a fluid moving around, towards the center and down (or up?). (IMO that's a true vortex) Which means that while there is no centripetal force like there is centrifugal force it seems that centripetal motion caused by the walls of the chamber tapering is required for a true vortex and IMO the interesting results vortexes can sometimes bring. I do however believe that the vortex that golf balls, shark skin and according to Shauberger trout make is an important fluid dynamic principle and I don't know why more aircraft and Americas cup boats don't make use of it. Of course I have seen an aircraft that did in Rex Research's info there was a 'vortex' plane which gained greater lift by flying with the top skin off the wings of a plane leaving recesses that created vortexes and life. When the Mythbusters tried testing the efficiency of driving a Ute (I think in the US you might call it a flat bed truck?) with the back down or up they found that surprisingly up was more fuel efficient because it helped create a vortex, I think I remember hearing about one wind tunnel test where it went into the negative with the model craft apparently being propelled by it's shape much as Shauberger claimed with the trout, maybe with the mysteries of the vortex plus the effect of turning the air flow around it is possible, if so I would think that to maximize the effect you'd want the surface that has the wind moving with it to have as much air friction as possible. As for the egg I think it is lifted because of Bernoulli's law. On 9/28/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > > On 9/27/06, Esa Ruoho wrote: > > > would you guys be able to explain why exactly does the egg start > > spinning around its own axis, and then rise, because of the vortical > > movement caused by spinning a spoon at the top? > > I believe this is caused by the effect named after Henri Marie Coanda. > > Terry > > ------=_Part_41538_26244334.1159388594678 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Taking 'Vortex' more literally than most.
Here is a question though, is a vortex just rotation of fluids, a fluid moving in a circle which in in effect a single dimension of movement.
Or is it only when you have a fluid moving around, towards the center and down (or up?). (IMO that's a true vortex)

Which means that while there is no centripetal force like there is centrifugal force it seems that centripetal motion caused by the walls of the chamber tapering is required for a true vortex and IMO the interesting results vortexes can sometimes bring.

I do however believe that the vortex that golf balls, shark skin and according to Shauberger trout make is an important fluid dynamic principle and I don't know why more aircraft and Americas cup boats don't make use of it.

Of course I have seen an aircraft that did in Rex Research's info there was a 'vortex' plane which gained greater lift by flying with the top skin off the wings of a plane leaving recesses that created vortexes and life.
When the Mythbusters tried testing the efficiency of driving a Ute (I think in the US you might call it a flat bed truck?) with the back down or up they found that surprisingly up was more fuel efficient because it helped create a vortex, I think I remember hearing about one wind tunnel test where it went into the negative with the model craft apparently being propelled by it's shape much as Shauberger claimed with the trout, maybe with the mysteries of the vortex plus the effect of turning the air flow around it is possible, if so I would think that to maximize the effect you'd want the surface that has the wind moving with it to have as much air friction as possible.

As for the egg I think it is lifted because of Bernoulli's law.

On 9/28/06, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com > wrote:
On 9/27/06, Esa Ruoho <esaruoho@gmail.com > wrote:

> would you guys be able to explain why exactly does the egg start
> spinning around its own axis, and then rise, because of the vortical
> movement caused by spinning a spoon at the top?

I believe this is caused by the effect named after Henri Marie Coanda.

Terry


------=_Part_41538_26244334.1159388594678-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 14:03:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8RL3WXp014010; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:03:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8RL3UJO013982; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:03:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:03:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060927164414.04086c20@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:03:16 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Jed's Edict In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060927121122.03ef9dc8@mindspring.com> References: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060926142438.03e309f0@mindspring.com> <000f01c6e1ae$9160ff10$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20060927121122.03ef9dc8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_27230343==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70852 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_27230343==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >"The war against this enemy is more than a military conflict. It is >the decisive ideological struggle of the 21st century, and the >calling of our generation." > >I do not agree with that statement, but if I were president and I >sincerely believed that, then I would consider closing down the >entire auto industry for six months or year to be a reasonable and >appropriate response. Also, I am quite sure that people who have family members in the army in Iraq would consider this entirely reasonable and appropriate, and way better than getting blown up. Compared to sacrificing 2,000 or 3,000 or who-knows-how-many more people in a losing war, a temporary shut down the U.S. auto industry for a year or so is a trivial price to pay, and unlike the present methods, it would quickly & permanently put the terrorists out of business. (However much they hate us, they cannot fight without money.) I am quite serious about that, and in a frame of mind to point it out because yesterday a friend of a friend was killed in Iraq, leaving two small daughters and a widow. During WWII someone said it is better to send a thousand tanks too many than one not enough. No sane person questioned whether every available resource should be poured into the war effort; the only debate was how to allocate resources most effectively, i.e., whether to use limited supplies of steel to build more ships or more tanks. After the war a Roosevelt administration member remarked that although it had cost vast sums of money, that did not matter; people only cared whether their sons and husbands came back alive. Money is the least important thing you can sacrifice in war. If this truly is a war, and we really want to win it, we should go all out, institute a draft, institute 90% income taxes and a $5 emergency gasoline tax, and take whatever other steps are needed to win. If we do not care enough to do these things, we should not sacrifice even one more life in vain. It seems obvious to me that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are both being lost. The Taliban is taken over most of Afghanistan and will soon have the rest, and we might as well give Iraq back to Saddam Hussein for all the good we are doing there. I was not in favor of the latter war, but I am even less in favor of losing it, for crying out loud! - Jed --=====================_27230343==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

"The war against this enemy is more than a military conflict. It is the decisive ideological struggle of the 21st century, and the calling of our generation."

I do not agree with that statement, but if I were president and I sincerely believed that, then I would consider closing down the entire auto industry for six months or year to be a reasonable and appropriate response.

Also, I am quite sure that people who have family members in the army in Iraq would consider this entirely reasonable and appropriate, and way better than getting blown up. Compared to sacrificing 2,000 or 3,000 or who-knows-how-many more people in a losing war, a temporary shut down the U.S. auto industry for a year or so is a trivial price to pay, and unlike the present methods, it would quickly & permanently put the terrorists out of business. (However much they hate us, they cannot fight without money.)

I am quite serious about that, and in a frame of mind to point it out because yesterday a friend of a friend was killed in Iraq, leaving two small daughters and a widow.

During WWII someone said it is better to send a thousand tanks too many than one not enough. No sane person questioned whether every available resource should be poured into the war effort; the only debate was how to allocate resources most effectively, i.e., whether to use limited supplies of steel to build more ships or more tanks. After the war a Roosevelt administration member remarked that although it had cost vast sums of money, that did not matter; people only cared whether their sons and husbands came back alive. Money is the least important thing you can sacrifice in war.

If this truly is a war, and we really want to win it, we should go all out, institute a draft, institute 90% income taxes and a $5 emergency gasoline tax, and take whatever other steps are needed to win. If we do not care enough to do these things, we should not sacrifice even one more life in vain. It seems obvious to me that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are both being lost. The Taliban is taken over most of Afghanistan and will soon have the rest, and we might as well give Iraq back to Saddam Hussein for all the good we are doing there. I was not in favor of the latter war, but I am even less in favor of losing it, for crying out loud!

- Jed
--=====================_27230343==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 14:36:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8RLaOFR001636; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:36:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8RLaMGa001609; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:36:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:36:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 07:36:19 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <538fa8f10609270550x77210775yf8923868e7bc327d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 27 Sep 2006 21:36:19 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8RLaJar001570 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70853 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to John Berry's message of Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:23:14 +1200: Hi, [snip] >As for the egg I think it is lifted because of Bernoulli's law. > >On 9/28/06, Terry Blanton wrote: >> >> On 9/27/06, Esa Ruoho wrote: >> >> > would you guys be able to explain why exactly does the egg start >> > spinning around its own axis, and then rise, because of the vortical >> > movement caused by spinning a spoon at the top? >> >> I believe this is caused by the effect named after Henri Marie Coanda. [snip] I think the egg rises because it only has one symmetry axis, which passes through the ends. It has nothing to do with air flowing over the surface. I was about to suggest trying it in a vacuum, but under those conditions I would end up with egg all over my face. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 15:38:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8RMcYUq004504; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 15:38:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8RMcWff004476; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 15:38:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 15:38:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:38:26 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <93vlh255c30vjjlehnuqtigd3lfoqjk7st@4ax.com> References: <003c01c6e16c$52e206e0$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> In-Reply-To: <003c01c6e16c$52e206e0$0904a8c0@RCORNWALL> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:38:25 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8RMcPoa004434 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70854 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:04:36 +0100: Hi, [snip] >Robin, >Yes it is confusing. Also sometimes the phase velocity appears to be greater >than c (anomalous media) or the group velocity is. In either case they defer >to the one less than c. The Feynman articles give a proof relating Quantum >Mechanics (expressions for E and p) to the relation in Special Relativity >that seems to provide a proof that it is the group velocity that is >relevant. > >Remi. [snip] My personal suspicion (and that's all it is), is that the group velocity is responsible for energy transport, and the phase velocity is responsible for information transfer. For a plain wave in empty space the two correspond of course which might explain why the distinction is not so clear. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 16:18:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8RNI4Wk025212; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:18:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8RNI3Jr025192; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:18:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:18:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:18:01 -0600 Message-Id: <200609271718.AA4127195266@mail1.myexcel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Jeff and Dorothy Kooistra" Reply-To: X-Sender: To: , Subject: Re: [Vo]: Jed's Edict X-Mailer: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70855 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed said: >If this truly is a war, and we really want to win it, we should go all out, institute a draft, institute 90% income taxes and a $5 emergency gasoline tax, Why punish ourselves? If we really want to win as you put it, we simply stop worrying about civilian casualties in iraq and, well, anywhere else. Nukes are cheap, and neutron bombs would work wonders to clear out enclaves of bad guys. It would be a trivial matter to incinerate 20,000,000 Iraqi's or so. What is taking time and costing money is that we insist on sorting them out first, and imperfectly at that. The Roman's destroyed Carthage, and they never had a problem out of them again Jeff From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 18:10:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8S1AEVM010838; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:10:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8S1ACKw010817; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:10:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:10:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200609280110.k8S1A1J4024030@mail1.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:10:02 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_fbd0a7a2b8fce5248055b3c8fe017813" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 66.168.30.131 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70856 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: --=_fbd0a7a2b8fce5248055b3c8fe017813 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jed's recent comments on how to fix our nation's addition to foreign oil does have some merit in my view, despite the fact that it contains, in my view, draconian-like measures. Truth be said, many of Jed's suggestions look truly frightening to me in the sense that if they were ALL implemented I fear our nation would be in danger of sliding into a totalitarian state. OTOH, let us consider the current administration's perspective, most generously supplied to us by Jed. Portions of the administration's solution were stated in the following 09/11/06 speech: "The war against this enemy is more than a military conflict. It is the decisive ideological struggle of the 21st century, and the calling of our generation." I tend to agree with Jed in the sense that, in my view, the current administration's grasp of the real fundamental problem has been squandered, tragically so. The administration's attempt to make us focus on winning a noble "ideological struggle", making it "...the calling of our generation" is doomed to fail. The planet is already infested with too many ideological struggles and "callings". Ideological struggles tend to do nothing more than generate misery and claim lives everywhere on the planet. What is often lost in the ongoing carnage is what makes our "ideological struggle" any better than the rest currently festering all over the planet? Not one iota, in my view. All too often it's underappreciated that the real meat of the matter comes down to the behavior of the players who desire to control the finite natural resources of our fragile planet. Control over the planet's energy resources is particularly in vogue these days. It's considered a tad too crass for most political administrations to simply say the obvious: That we need to maintain control over the planet's finite natural resources so that we can maintain political stability, so that we can maintain business-as-usual, so that we can maintain our current standards of living. The current administration's modus operandi, as portrayed in Bush's recent 09/11/06 speech, indicates that they either believe (or, worse, they have suckered themselves into believing) that the higher thing to do is to continue perpetuating the false-myth that we are involved in a noble "ideological struggle" against some very "evil" people who want to do us in. In the unfolding dramas of all "ideological ! struggles" it's important to know who wears the white hats and who's wearing the black hats. It's also truly unfortunate that such ideological struggles are very addictive and insidious precisely because there really ARE people out there that truly WANT to do us in, our way of life. Unfortunately, agreeing to participate in this destructive ideological drama, by claiming that our "ideological struggle" is better than their "ideological struggle" only condemns both players to an endless tug-of-war that neither team can win for very long. Sooner or later, some of the team members (on both sides of the fence) eventually come to their senses and say to themselves: What's wrong with this picture! I'm getting nowhere fast! Ya'know, I don't give a flying CR*P who's wearing the white or black hats anymore! There's gotta be a better way to resolve this on-going carnage than constantly believing that my side is the right one and they're wrong! And, of course, there are better ways. As most vorts realize, discovering and developing cheaper and hopefully unlimited sources of so-called "free" energy will go long, LONG, way in making it completely irrelevant as to who is right and who is wrong - who is wearing the white hats and black hats in today's worldly dramas. But to get to this critical turning-point we have to have political leadership, a regime, that understands the utter futility of constantly engaging in "ideological struggles." Unfortunately, the current regime appears to be incapable of understanding this. They appear lost in their own actions of maintaining the status quo, rather than considering the obvious. The obvious, as Jed has already stated in many different essays, would be to focus the totality of our nation's resources on developing alternative forms of energy INSTEAD of, once again, duping the nation in follies of torching ideological effigies in the form of stamping out Al-Queda, or the Taliban. A real irony in all of this folly is the misunderstood fact that it's not Al-Queda nor the Taliban that are our true enemy. They aren't real nemesis we must truly fear. They are only a serious nuisance, a real inconvenience of our times, created out of our own stupidity and lack of forethought that we must nevertheless deal with. The real fear we must face is the dwindling supplies of natural resources. In my view, there should be an absolute and utterly terrifying FEAR instilled in every person, that we are all living on a finite planet with finite resources - and how are we going to divide those resources up amongst everyone fairly. To acknowledge an honestly felt fear amongst ourselves and each other is not necessarily a bad thing. Kennedy, in fact, took advantage of the internationally induced political fears in an ingenious way. He focused the nation on a single noble goal: To land a Man on the Moon before the end of the decade (1960s) and then to bring him back safe and sound. Sputnik scared the bejeevers out of most Americans. Kennedy understood this. He shrewdly took advantage of the nation's fears. In a stroke of political genius he focused the nation's collective psychic energy in one of the most constructive ways imaginable: A dramatic, romantic race to the Moon, all motivated by the goal of planting an American flag on the lunar surface before the feared Russians could claim bragging rights for themselves. It is now almost a half-century later, and bragging rights are the least of the incredible list of spin-offs that we continue to reap from that romantically inspired endeavor. It is my view that the same kind of fear Kennedy sensed back in the 1960 is growing, once again, in the collective psyches of most Americans today, and perhaps the rest of the world as well. Most Americans may not necessarily recognize that fear as such, but it IS there, nipping at our heels. It is also utterly tragic in my view that the current administration is attempting to exploit the nation's collective fears by trying to get us to rally around "...decisive ideological struggle[s] of the 21st century." It is utter folly that the administration wants us to make additional sacrifices in this endeavor, to keep the "ideological struggle" alive for yet another generation to deal with. A crucial point that is being squandered in the current administration's dealings with its citizenry is the fact that they appear incapable of taking advantage of the fact that we're scared silly about dwindling resources. The current administration seems incapable of taking advantage of the fact that collectively speaking, most of us WOULD be willing to make a series of draconian-like sacrifices if we knew they were fair, that they were being implemented so that better alternative energy supplies could be developed, energy resources that could eventually free the entire planet from the continuing nightmares we currently endure, day after bloody day. Ponder this: If the nation as a whole were asked to make some serious sacrifices starting right now so that we, and more importantly, our children would eventually benefit from a romantically inspired and politically engineered "race" to develop new forms of "free" unlimited sources of energy, do you think the majority of us would be willing byte the bullet? In a heartbeat. That's what an honest sense of real fear would do, if asked. Kennedy understood that. How unfortunate that the current administration doesn't. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_fbd0a7a2b8fce5248055b3c8fe017813 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed's recent comments on how to fix our nation's addition to foreign oil do= es have some merit in my view, despite the fact that it contains, in my vie= w, draconian-like measures. Truth be said, many of Jed's suggestions look t= ruly frightening to me in the sense that if they were ALL implemented I fea= r our nation would be in danger of sliding into a totalitarian state.

OTOH, let us consider the current administration's perspective, most genero= usly supplied to us by Jed. Portions of the administration's solution were = stated in the following 09/11/06 speech:

"The war against this enemy is more than a military conflict. It is the dec= isive ideological struggle of the 21st century, and the calling of our gene= ration."

I tend to agree with Jed in the sense that, in my view, the current adminis= tration's grasp of the real fundamental problem has been squandered, tragic= ally so. The administration's attempt to make us focus on winning a noble "= ideological struggle", making it "...the calling of our generation" is doom= ed to fail. The planet is already infested with too many ideological strugg= les and "callings". Ideological struggles tend to do nothing more than gene= rate misery and claim lives everywhere on the planet. What is often lost in= the ongoing carnage is what makes our "ideological struggle" any better th= an the rest currently festering all over the planet? Not one iota, in my vi= ew.

All too often it's underappreciated that the real meat of the matter comes = down to the behavior of the players who desire to control the finite natura= l resources of our fragile planet. Control over the planet's energy resourc= es is particularly in vogue these days. It's considered a tad too crass for= most political administrations to simply say the obvious: That we need to = maintain control over the planet's finite natural resources so that we can = maintain political stability, so that we can maintain business-as-usual, so= that we can maintain our current standards of living. The current administ= ration's modus operandi, as portrayed in Bush's recent 09/11/06 speech, ind= icates that they either believe (or, worse, they have suckered themselves i= nto believing) that the higher thing to do is to continue perpetuating the = false-myth that we are involved in a noble "ideological struggle" against s= ome very "evil" people who want to do us in. In the unfolding dramas of all= "ideological struggles" it's important to know who wears the white hats an= d who's wearing the black hats. It's also truly unfortunate that such ideol= ogical struggles are very addictive and insidious precisely because there r= eally ARE people out there that truly WANT to do us in, our way of life. Un= fortunately, agreeing to participate in this destructive ideological drama,= by claiming that our "ideological struggle" is better than their "ideologi= cal struggle" only condemns both players to an endless tug-of-war that neit= her team can win for very long. Sooner or later, some of the team members (= on both sides of the fence) eventually come to their senses and say to them= selves: What's wrong with this picture! I'm getting nowhere fast! Ya'know, = I don't give a flying CR*P who's wearing the white or black hats anymore! T= here's gotta be a better way to resolve this on-going carnage than constant= ly believing that my side is the right one and they're wrong!

And, of course, there are better ways.

As most vorts realize, discovering and developing cheaper and hopefully unl= imited sources of so-called "free" energy will go long, LONG, way in making= it completely irrelevant as to who is right and who is wrong - who is wear= ing the white hats and black hats in today's worldly dramas.

But to get to this critical turning-point we have to have political leaders= hip, a regime, that understands the utter futility of constantly engaging i= n "ideological struggles." Unfortunately, the current regime appears to be = incapable of understanding this. They appear lost in their own actions of m= aintaining the status quo, rather than considering the obvious. The obvious= , as Jed has already stated in many different essays, would be to focus the= totality of our nation's resources on developing alternative forms of ener= gy INSTEAD of, once again, duping the nation in follies of torching ideolog= ical effigies in the form of stamping out Al-Queda, or the Taliban.

A real irony in all of this folly is the misunderstood fact that it's not A= l-Queda nor the Taliban that are our true enemy. They aren't real nemesis w= e must truly fear. They are only a serious nuisance, a real inconvenience o= f our times, created out of our own stupidity and lack of forethought that = we must nevertheless deal with. The real fear we must face is the dwindling= supplies of natural resources. In my view, there should be an absolute and= utterly terrifying FEAR instilled in every person, that we are all living = on a finite planet with finite resources - and how are we going to divide t= hose resources up amongst everyone fairly.

To acknowledge an honestly felt fear amongst ourselves and each other is no= t necessarily a bad thing. Kennedy, in fact, took advantage of the internat= ionally induced political fears in an ingenious way. He focused the nation = on a single noble goal: To land a Man on the Moon before the end of the dec= ade (1960s) and then to bring him back safe and sound. Sputnik scared the b= ejeevers out of most Americans. Kennedy understood this. He shrewdly took a= dvantage of the nation's fears. In a stroke of political genius he focused = the nation's collective psychic energy in one of the most constructive ways= imaginable: A dramatic, romantic race to the Moon, all motivated by the go= al of planting an American flag on the lunar surface before the feared Russ= ians could claim bragging rights for themselves. It is now almost a half-ce= ntury later, and bragging rights are the least of the incredible list of sp= in-offs that we continue to reap from that romantically inspired endeavor.<= br />
It is my view that the same kind of fear Kennedy sensed back in the 1960 is= growing, once again, in the collective psyches of most Americans today, an= d perhaps the rest of the world as well. Most Americans may not necessarily= recognize that fear as such, but it IS there, nipping at our heels. It is = also utterly tragic in my view that the current administration is attemptin= g to exploit the nation's collective fears by trying to get us to rally aro= und "...decisive ideological struggle[s] of the 21st century." It is utter = folly that the administration wants us to make additional sacrifices in thi= s endeavor, to keep the "ideological struggle" alive for yet another genera= tion to deal with.

A crucial point that is being squandered in the current administration's de= alings with its citizenry is the fact that they appear incapable of taking = advantage of the fact that we're scared silly about dwindling resources. Th= e current administration seems incapable of taking advantage of the fact th= at collectively speaking, most of us WOULD be willing to make a series of d= raconian-like sacrifices if we knew they were fair, that they were being im= plemented so that better alternative energy supplies could be developed, en= ergy resources that could eventually free the entire planet from the contin= uing nightmares we currently endure, day after bloody day.

Ponder this: If the nation as a whole were asked to make some serious sacri= fices starting right now so that we, and more importantly, our children wou= ld eventually benefit from a romantically inspired and politically engineer= ed "race" to develop new forms of "free" unlimited sources of energy, do yo= u think the majority of us would be willing byte the bullet?

In a heartbeat. That's what an honest sense of real fear would do, if asked= . Kennedy understood that. How unfortunate that the current administration = doesn't.


Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_fbd0a7a2b8fce5248055b3c8fe017813-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 19:00:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8S20QjG001432; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:00:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8S20O6s001408; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:00:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:00:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <68A34DFE87D0BE46AF898FFCC65CCF8438F5A1@caraupermb02.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger@carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: questions about Schauberger technology Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 09:56:52 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70857 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas & Esa, The name you are looking for is "Frank Germano". He has a pretty amazing web site as well as the VS Group on Yahoo. See http://www.frank.germano.com/viktorschauberger.htm Frank's website has many other "paths" apart from VS including Tesla. Esa is already a member of the VS group on Yahoo. John Rudiger Perth WA Ph:- 08 9232 7150 Fax:- 08 9232 7155 -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy@usfamily.net] Sent: Thursday, 28 September 2006 2:16 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: questions about Schauberger technology Esa Ruoho wrote: > > > I am starving of information, and tired of the "quick fix" people who > just want another article on "c()nspiracy, ufo, alien, nazi, ww2" > intrigue. > > Please, from the bottom of my heart, please help. > What's your agenda Esa? I corresponded with a man who has authored quite a website on Schauberger technology. I'm sure that one of the Vortexians will remember his name and post it. If you have studied the subject in depth you will have read about his Respine. This man wanted to build one. As with any technological development, there are problems. For one thing it resembles a jet engine, I think that problems arising from an attempt to fabricate a jet engine analogue are self explanatory. Then there is the self stimulated LENR question. I'm making the assumption that the Respine produces LENR events, because the energy has to come from somewhere. The reports of experimenters who built Respines, speak of explosions. If you have read any on the LENR literature, you've heard the stories of heat after death (disconnection of the electrical current feeding the reaction) and the unexplained explosions (Muzano is a classic case in point). Well if you fabricate the aforementioned jet engine analogue and have an explosion, you'd better have it contained in a poured concrete enclosure. Otherwise you will end up like the French scientist who built the Respine, he died. The bottom line is unless you know of a multi million dollar source who is willing to fund this research, you'd better confine your efforts to reading the books which a Google search will locate. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 20:23:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8S3Hb8d003086; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:17:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8S3HSXs003006; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:17:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:17:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: SUVs Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:17:17 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <003201c6e1bd$4e011480$0200000a@dell> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Importance: Normal X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70858 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A Just a question to all the pontificators... how is a family of 5 or more to travel about in this age of seat belts and car seats? Guess what... minivans and SUVs for many of us are a legislated requirement not a luxury. Get out of the bubble! -j -----Original Message----- From: Kyle R. Mcallister [mailto:weir@fdscience.org] Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:44 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: SUVs For the record, I do support not allowing the manufacture of NEW SUVS. But to take already existing and owned cars? No. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 20:25:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8S3HbM5003087; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:17:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8S3HWDN003046; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:17:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:17:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Jed's Edict Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:17:18 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <451AA3D8.2080507@usfamily.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Importance: Normal X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70859 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Great idea! 1) how do you get the water there? 2) how do you keep it there? 3) how much cost effectiveness will be lost transporting it to where it can be used? There are reasons why it's desert.... 8^) -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy@usfamily.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:16 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Jed's Edict Mike Carrell wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aquaculture for energy > >> Jones Beene wrote: >> >> Make no small plans, sez me. >> >> This would also drastically reduce CO2 emissions, which NASA and the >> Japanese press have headlined today. >> >> - Jed > I keep coming back to our being able to run the country on the biodiesel produced on 61,000 square miles of algae ponds in the deserts. IMHO is, if the elite want to do something creative about the energy supply, they would be doing it. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 20:26:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8S3Hlsl003133; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:17:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8S3Hesj003103; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:17:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:17:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: questions about Schauberger technology Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:17:19 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <451ABFE8.6020300@usfamily.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Importance: Normal X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70860 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think this is the device you refer... http://www.hasslberger.com/tecno/tecno_2.htm Some links you may find interesting (if you haven't found them already)... http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/AetherWave/ImplosionTurbine/index.html http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/repulsin.htm http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/repulsb.htm -john -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy@usfamily.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 1:16 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: questions about Schauberger technology Esa Ruoho wrote: > > > I am starving of information, and tired of the "quick fix" people who > just want another article on "c()nspiracy, ufo, alien, nazi, ww2" > intrigue. > > Please, from the bottom of my heart, please help. > What's your agenda Esa? I corresponded with a man who has authored quite a website on Schauberger technology. I'm sure that one of the Vortexians will remember his name and post it. If you have studied the subject in depth you will have read about his Respine. This man wanted to build one. As with any technological development, there are problems. For one thing it resembles a jet engine, I think that problems arising from an attempt to fabricate a jet engine analogue are self explanatory. Then there is the self stimulated LENR question. I'm making the assumption that the Respine produces LENR events, because the energy has to come from somewhere. The reports of experimenters who built Respines, speak of explosions. If you have read any on the LENR literature, you've heard the stories of heat after death (disconnection of the electrical current feeding the reaction) and the unexplained explosions (Muzano is a classic case in point). Well if you fabricate the aforementioned jet engine analogue and have an explosion, you'd better have it contained in a poured concrete enclosure. Otherwise you will end up like the French scientist who built the Respine, he died. The bottom line is unless you know of a multi million dollar source who is willing to fund this research, you'd better confine your efforts to reading the books which a Google search will locate. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 20:26:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8S3PoNs008092; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:25:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8S3Plcl008052; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:25:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:25:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:25:47 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70861 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Two interesting articles... Status: O X-Status: A selected history of expectation bias in physics. M. Jeng, Am. J. of Physics, July 2006 http://scitation.aip.org/journals/doc/AJPIAS-ft/vol_74/iss_7/578_1.html The beliefs of physics can bias their results toward their expectations in a number of ways. We survey a variety of historical cases of expectation biase in observations, experiments, and calculations. Rethinking peer review http://www.thenewatlantis.com/archive/13/soa/peerreview.htm Note that in the first article, the author says "If the reader knows of any cases of expectation bias, either historical or recent, in their own fields, I'd love to hear about them." (And I'd like to hear more examples myself!) (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ beaty@chem.washington.edu Research Engineer billb@amasci.com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 21:24:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8S4OMV2002188; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 21:24:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8S4OGHC002143; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 21:24:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 21:24:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:24:13 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 28 Sep 2006 04:24:12 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8S4ODXd002101 Resent-Message-ID: <_DREfC.A.Uh.w50GFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70862 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Keith Nagel's message of Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:50:18 -0400: Hi Keith, [snip] >Hi Robin, > >I was confused by this also. I don't think english is Andres >first language, so his paper is a little obtuse at points. >What he's saying, after a more careful read on my part, is that >he assumes "The Energy of a wave is transported at its phase velocity". >is what Roger is claiming. Possible, but not exactly in evidence. >I haven't had time to check the >math, but having now at least read Rogers theory paper, I >have my doubts about Andres assumption. > >Look at section 2.2 for example. Roger diagrams the path of >a TEM wave inside the microwave cavity. This is the correct >model, I have measured this same behavior in a real cavity >with real probes, as I had described earlier ( on the Vo. list >even, check the archives ). He then goes on to say something >like, "if we measure the group velocity by using the axial >distance, rather than the true path, we see that group >velocity can be much slower at the short end of the tube than >the longer ( as in 2.4 )". I will add to that statement by saying that >in addition, phase velocity will grow faster by the same >amount. In the limit condition, phase velocity will be >infinite, and group velocity will be zero. I think Roger >has a pretty good handle on the mechanics of what is going >on in the wave guide, based on the text at least. He has however missed one point. Looking at figure 2.4, it's obvious that upon reflecting from the sloping side, the wave will not only impart a vertical force to the wall, but also a horizontal component, since the angle of exit will be equal to the angle of entry, and hence the overall force on the wall will be perpendicular to it. Because the wall slopes, this perpendicular force can be broken up into a vertical component and a horizontal component. Without doing the math, my intuition says that the sum of all the horizontal components on the walls will exactly equal the difference between the forces on the ends. That then begs the question, whence the actual force measured in the real devices? :) > >What I find a little questionable about Rogers idea is that >the system is truly open. This doesn't really bother me. Once a photon has left the emitter it is truly on its own. IOW it's rowing through the aether. :) >Look at the gedanken experiment in >fig 2.1. If plate R1 and R2 are physically connected, there >ought to be net motion in the direction of F1. That seems >OK to me. No, this example is flawed too. There are no walls in the example, hence the radiation is not contained, and only that which reflects from the end walls is felt. When walls are present, all the radiation is contained, and the net result is zero, which can be seen by drawing a circle around Tx with the axis of the device running through the center of the circle. Equal amounts of energy are radiated to the right and to the left of the circle, resulting in no net force. >But how about if the transmitter Tx is connected >to the same frame? Now I wonder... but that's basically >Rogers claim. This on the other hand doesn't bother me in the least, because the emitter only gets a single transfer of momentum from the emitter energy, i.e. when it is initially emitted. The end walls OTOH get thousands (billions) of momentum transfers, one upon each reflection, so that the result far outweighs the effect on the transmitter. Furthermore, if it really bothers you, then align the transmitter such that the transfer of momentum to it accelerates the vehicle - making a virtue of a vice. :) [snip] BTW if it all turns out to be correct and works as stated, then here are a few "improvements". :) 1) Replace the photons with real charged particles (much greater energy density), e.g. Hg nuclei. 2) Use an asymmetric magnetic field to constrain them, so that they loop around in a true oval shape (one end of the ellipse fatter than the other), no reflectors needed. If necessary a negative charge at the center of the oval can assist in the containment. Now we have the drive unit described here:- http://www.mufonla.com/tr3b.htm Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 22:15:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8S5FUku026996; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:15:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8S5FRFo026969; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:15:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:15:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 01:27:54 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70863 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, you write: >Possible, but not exactly in evidence. Quoting Andre, "In the following we review the the theoretical model for the engine put forth by SPR..." The next paragraph is then supposed to represent Rogers view, despite being phrased in the ( typically academic ) first person plural form. It's not clear though, and on first reading I thought the same. Perhaps someone who knows Andre can write him and request some clarification. Wouldn't it be surprising if he asserts the phase velocity is the speed of energy transfer? >He has however missed one point. Looking at figure 2.4, it's >obvious that upon reflecting from the sloping side, the wave will >not only impart a vertical force to the wall, but also a >horizontal component, since the angle of exit will be equal to the >angle of entry, and hence the overall force on the wall will be >perpendicular to it. Because the wall slopes, this perpendicular >force can be broken up into a vertical component and a horizontal >component. Without doing the math, my intuition says that the sum >of all the horizontal components on the walls will exactly equal >the difference between the forces on the ends. I completely agree, the thought struck me as well. Roger sort of hand waves around this point by saying that due to impedence matching we can discount this effect. By that, I take it to mean that he uses a proper exponential horn rather than the crude linear illustration. But still, I am deeply troubled. It's a show stopper. Another way to descibe the device is to say that he is transforming from a TEM wave to a TE or TM wave, if you are familar with the microwave terms. >That then begs the question, whence the actual force measured in >the real devices? :) Yup. K. BTW, love your new sig. Here's one for you. "Is it just me, or is the 21st century basically the Middle Ages with indoor plumbing?" -K- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 22:50:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8S5oGrh015642; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:50:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8S5oEiE015624; Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:50:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:50:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=QuvKVaAy/VXvM68bp7DfqcztfCY18W6aD+s0kr2Vv9T+c/1tjwgbMlWAOjGyF8guvfUdA8qWK0320XwOfUXyj1vS7ttEzH3CM/zKqs+/xwhDcKiNP3G9Sr527XZp4mIYXiUFJqxQU5wlfopDbGuWuAGKqV9O6KYgSUAcmQwzEZI= ; Message-ID: <0f5a01c6e2c1$adb62a00$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Cc: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 01:48:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70864 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: Keith, Drop Roger Shawyer for a second. Have you seen Steve Burn's recent paper? He suggests that to increase gravitational mass we reduce the phase velocity. I thought I was confused before. (Phase velocity. Group velocity. FTL / No FTL.) http://www.geocities.com/sburns808/SWMass.pdf GRAVITATIONAL MASS EMULATION WITH A REDUCED PHASE VELOCITY STANDING WAVE Steve Burns 9/13/2006 INTRODUCTION: A possible link between gravitational mass and an electromagnetic standing wave is explored. A rotating standing wave emulates matter as a self-captured EM wave (1). Reducing wave phase velocity increases mass in the classical sense of m=E/v2. Here we will explore a way to electrically generate a rotating standing wave with reduced phase velocity in order to verify mass increase. Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:27 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]: stationary emdrive- inertial anchor > Hi Robin, > > you write: >>Possible, but not exactly in evidence. > > Quoting Andre, "In the following we review the the theoretical > model for the engine put forth by SPR..." The next paragraph > is then supposed to represent Rogers view, despite being phrased > in the ( typically academic ) first person plural form. It's > not clear though, and on first reading I thought the same. > Perhaps someone who knows Andre can write him and request > some clarification. Wouldn't it be surprising if he asserts > the phase velocity is the speed of energy transfer? > >>He has however missed one point. Looking at figure 2.4, it's >>obvious that upon reflecting from the sloping side, the wave will >>not only impart a vertical force to the wall, but also a >>horizontal component, since the angle of exit will be equal to the >>angle of entry, and hence the overall force on the wall will be >>perpendicular to it. Because the wall slopes, this perpendicular >>force can be broken up into a vertical component and a horizontal >>component. Without doing the math, my intuition says that the sum >>of all the horizontal components on the walls will exactly equal >>the difference between the forces on the ends. > > I completely agree, the thought struck me as well. Roger sort > of hand waves around this point by saying that due to > impedence matching we can discount this effect. By that, I > take it to mean that he uses a proper exponential horn rather than the > crude linear illustration. But still, I am deeply troubled. It's > a show stopper. > > Another way to descibe the device is to say that he is > transforming from a TEM wave to a TE or TM wave, if you > are familar with the microwave terms. > >>That then begs the question, whence the actual force measured in >>the real devices? :) > > Yup. > > K. > > BTW, love your new sig. Here's one for you. > > "Is it just me, or is the 21st century basically the Middle Ages > with indoor plumbing?" -K- > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 28 00:41:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8S7fasH005077; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 00:41:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8S7fXDr005040; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 00:41:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 00:41:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 00:41:29 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70865 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Seeing Tesla with new eyes Status: RO X-Status: A I uploaded some crude screenshots taken from the film "The Secret of Nikola Tesla." I'm very curious as to the original source of these images. Who was the artist? On what were they based? From what I understand of Tesla technology, they seem very accurate (also quite revealing.) http://amasci.com/graphics/tstowr.jpg http://amasci.com/graphics/tsflyr.jpg http://amasci.com/graphics/tspjctl.jpg http://amasci.com/graphics/tsplane.jpg http://amasci.com/graphics/tscar.jpg http://amasci.com/graphics/tsfactry.jpg http://amasci.com/graphics/tstrain.jpg These appear in the scene in the movie where Tesla visits JP Morgan and tries to convince him to continue funding. Tesla shows a portfolio of large-format artwork which he pages through to show Morgan what he's planning: Note well the "searchlight beams" depicted as coming from the tips of small high-voltage antennas in all the above artwork. WEIRD! Don't these beams appear to be identical to the same "searchlights" depicted in other Tesla artwork such as: Wardenclyff tower in operation http://www.teslasociety.com/pictures/wardenc3.jpg http://www.teslasociety.com/pictures/lightstower.jpg (And which artist created these two? How accurate are the details, i.e. how much guidance did the artist receive from Tesla?) I'm tempted to conclude that *none* of these beams are supposed to be searchlights ...and that all of them are detailed and accurate depictions of Tesla's planned devices. For years I've been looking right at the key to Tesla's devices, and not noticing it. I thought they were decoration: searchlights added by some silly artist. If I'm guessing correctly, they are AC ion beams: they are long narrow corona discharges; "virtual conductors" created in the air using Tesla bulbs emitting high-power x-rays. (Those little antennas in the pictures of cars and planes would have to have vacuum-bulbs in the tips of the antennas.) In addition, the glowing beams are being used as power lines, or as huge VLF antennas. There could be considerable AC amperage in those glowing pathways. The high current would make them glow all the more. Remember that if we use high voltage and low current, we can make even a fairly large resistor behave like a good conductor, and we can transfer very large wattage at low loss. That was one of Tesla's main inventions: thin power lines with transformers on either end! Why use these beams? Here's one example. If the Wardenclyffe tower was operational, and if a large city needed more wireless power than was available via many separate resonant loop antennas ...it could project a vertical "conductor ray" upwards as an Ionospheric tap. Gain some extra height: build the ray-projector on top of a tall building. This would be combined with a large ground rod, and would be just like a "power line," but would connect to the ionosphere layer which was driven by Tesla's main tower built elsewhere. Another example: if an aircraft needed extra wattage, it could extend a "conductor ray" downwards to make contact with the Earth (while the metal skin and wings of the flyer would act as a capacitive antenna.) If it needed still more power, it could launch another ray upwards... and that's exactly what we see happening in this artwork: http://www.teslasociety.com/pictures/lightstower.jpg The skyscrapers send up beams! The airplanes send beams downward, and one large flyer sends beams both up and down. It all makes perfect sense if we assume that the beams are conductors. Something else makes sense too. In this image a factory is being run by wireless power: http://amasci.com/graphics/tsfactry.jpg One building has one of those little beam-emitting antennas. But in this case there is another beam coming in from... beyond the mountains. The "virtual conductors" connect together, and at the region where they join, apparently Tesla employs a floating terminal (perhaps a metallized balloon?) This does make sense as follows: a factory requires too much wattage for simple wireless power, so instead a long conductive beam is sent through the air from a distant power station. (In that case, is it still "wireless" power?) And here's something that's a bit too much to be just cooincidence. Below is a separate image from a magazine article, also apparently with a "Tesla Bulb" sitting atop a coil and producing a fan-shape glowing beam. http://amasci.com/graphics/tesbeam.jpg If that bulb emits x-rays, then not only is the air conductive, but there should also be a direct conductive path between the Tesla coil's main HV terminal and the glowing beam. After all, the thin glass envelope is conductive to AC (acting as capacitor dielectric.) The vacuum is conductive, since it's filled with an electron cloud. And the internal electrode is connected to the TC. So... rather than making a 10ft lightning bolt, the x-ray bulb pre-ionizes the air and allows the Tesla coil to spew out a fan-shaped glowing beam, a long narrow corona discharge. This perhaps solves another mystery too. Tesla was said to have lit his NYC laboratory without using fluorescent tubes. Instead, supposedly he had a way to make the air itself light up. If Tesla was producing a wide fan of powerful x-rays, and if this was connected to a big Tesla coil, then this would create a large-volume corona discharge. Turn the air into a fluorescent tube! (Pretty cool, eh? We'll just ignore the bit about irradiating our gonads.) What were these AC x-ray tubes like? There's an online article where Tesla gives details. ((((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( (o) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ Research Engineer UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 beaty@chem.washington.edu Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 ph:206-543-6195 fax:206-685-8665 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 28 01:19:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8S8J5j9022381; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 01:19:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8S8J3mS022356; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 01:19:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 01:19:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 01:19:02 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70866 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: New Tesla statue at Niagra Status: O X-Status: Tesla statue unveiled 7/2006 Niagra Falls (Canadian side) http://www.teslasociety.com/victoria.htm http://www.teslasociety.com/victoria3.htm (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ beaty@chem.washington.edu Research Engineer billb@amasci.com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 28 05:03:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8SC31es025404; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 05:03:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8SC2x3s025386; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 05:02:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 05:02:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <451BB7C7.52105570@centurytel.net> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:53:43 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Jed's Edict References: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060926142438.03e309f0@mindspring.com> <000f01c6e1ae$9160ff10$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20060927121122.03ef9dc8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060927164414.04086c20@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xjed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xjed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70867 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: "If this truly is a war, and we really want to win it ..." Hi All, Apparently "we" don't want to win it. What would American victories do to the price of oil? On the surface, the incompetent conduct of this war is inexplicable; but the owners of oil wells are going laughing to the bank. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 28 05:53:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8SCrAkZ026410; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 05:53:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8SCr8ui026366; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 05:53:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 05:53:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,229,1157342400"; d="scan'208"; a="934684096:sNHT18994768" Message-ID: <1814987970.1159447979581.JavaMail.root@fepweb10> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 5:52:59 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <9vKsAC.A.gbG.xW8GFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70868 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Missing Subject Lines Status: O X-Status: Mr. Beaty, Is there anything I can do to make Vortex's list server stop randomly stripping the subject thread of some of my posts? It is becoming extremely annoying not knowing which of my posts are going to come through intact. My last post concerning political issues on energy development contained no unusual characters in the subject thread. I'm at a loss as to what to do to remedy the situation. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/OrionWorks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 28 08:45:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8SFeIvU031504; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:45:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8SE0HC8012703; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 07:00:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 07:00:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <451BD4BB.6040808@usfamily.net> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:57:15 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Jed's Edict References: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060926142438.03e309f0@mindspring.com> <000f01c6e1ae$9160ff10$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20060927121122.03ef9dc8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060927164414.04086c20@mindspring.com> <451BB7C7.52105570@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: <451BB7C7.52105570@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70869 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Jed wrote: > >"If this truly is a war, and we really want to win it ..." > >Hi All, > >Apparently "we" don't want to win it. What would American >victories do to the price of oil? On the surface, the >incompetent conduct of this war is inexplicable; but the >owners of oil wells are going laughing to the bank. > >Jack Smith > War is the health of the state. Their agenda is to bring about a one world government. I could have used dictatorship. It's all about the power. > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 28 09:04:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8SG4Cto020021; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 09:04:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8SG48q0019970; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 09:04:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 09:04:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=gI+F2BmC72Z7dRzuA9gQfst9p3nU95HfPMOeO6nnWowWv9qMNn1pch2+Lq9RXyU8E8rPQYyWHWdP426FZd0S6aeMmEr2vMlzCKDrVzQw9wZXWL+1xErH9y0BGaWv9nCtAZTOdFDm5NZB7PGNvg5r5/V4A20QC1qPkv/kui23dsU= ; Message-ID: <002301c6e317$b8018c60$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 09:04:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01C6E2DD.0AA84ED0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70870 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C6E2DD.0AA84ED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This partly science - partly current-events commentary ... A particular terrorist explosive, the name of which need not be = mentioned for present purposes, is quietly in the science news lately = for a number of security-related reasons. But for alternative energy = R&D, the more specific interest is related to its main but little-known = physical anomaly. It is peroxide based, but very different from = conventional explosives in that it does not release heat during the = explosion. Did the full implications of that feature hit you yet?=20 If not, let me repeat: it does not release heat during the explosion! = At least not very much. Irony-of ironies ! Would not it be some kind of poetic justice in the = present socio-political climate (i.e. MidWest vs. MidEast, so to speak) = if the fear-product of Islamic terrorism led directly to a major = alternative-energy advance - which significantly lowered the demand for = Middle-Eastern oil? Not as farfetched as one might imagine. Read-on. The phase-change conversion of solid to gas (aka the steam engine) = normally is a product of temperature addition, or combustion; and = normally results in around a 1500-1 to 2000-1 volume change or = correspondingly - a pressure differential of around 3000 psi max. This = volume and pressure swing can be easily converted into energy using an = ICE or turbine engine. The process of energy conversion, like combustion, normally obeys = Boyle's Law (kind-of): Here is NASA's graphic version of this law: http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/boyle.html But what happens when the "Law" is broken, and rather explosively ? In the spirit of 'swords to plowshares' - the implication of the = aforementioned phase-change bomb-anomaly is, of course, that when an = engine is based on a similar chemical reaction, yet perhaps not quite so = dangerous as the one in question, and is employed to convert = gas-pressure to torque - then the Carnot limitations and other measures = of energy/heat content will not apply in the same way as with real heat = engines. In fact, some observers might be led to opine that there is a window of = opportunity for so-called "free-energy" here. However, it is more a = situation of time-shifting and concentrating ambient heat over time into = a subsequent large explosion in a comparative instant - rather than = anything mysterious or 'aetheric' - but "free-energy" has a nice "ring = to it", don't you think? And aether is most likely involved somehow. IOW a real violation of sacrosanct thermodynamic laws is doubtful, as = the energy input is often merely shifted in time to the manufacturing = stage for the alternative-fuel. For instance, in a related vein, several = companies are trying to exploit compressed air as an alternative energy = solution. A compressed air tank serves as a "battery", of sorts but = unlike all known batteries, this one will last for decades instead of = 5-6 years; and there is no phase change involved. In the situation of = compressed air, there is an apparent "entropic expansion" as the air = expands, reversing the Carnot assumptions. The engine often ices-up and = can show well over 100% efficient - IF (big if) - one neglects the = energy used to compress the gas. There is a lesser known variant of this phenomenon which does utilize = phase change, rather than compression, and the thermodynamic energy = balance is more complicated. This phenomenon is scientifically known as = 'Entropic Explosion', and is reminiscent of the rapid reaction that = produces gas in the safety air-bags of cars during accidents where one = does not want to substitute a lesser burn injury for a major impact = injury.=20 The Entropic Explosion (EE) phenomenon may serve to a lesser extent to = explain how HOOH can be used as a monopropellant rocket fuel when its = apparent energy content is low - much lower than the specific impulse of = exhaust would indicate. Compared to burning hydrogen in oxygen, the = specific impulse of HOOH monopropellant shows about a five to one net = advantage, when graphed against heat energy content of either fuel. = Specific impulse converts directly into torque. There are also = implications for expanding HOOH through a turbine in a closed cycle = using a tiny amount of H2 as a "pilot" and peroxide as the oxidant/fuel. = More on that later but the idea is that the advantages of the peroxide = are so great that they will support on onboard electrolysis to create = added synergy with some "high-mobility" H2 in the mix. But to bring you up to date on what is probably a new concept to many = (i.e. never before mentioned on this forum, as far as I can tell) : An = "entropic explosion" is defined simply as an explosion in which the = reactants undergo a large change in volume without releasing a large = amount of heat. It is real, but not a highly favored event = thermochemically - and involves a so-called "entropy burst," which some = might categorize as very difficult to reconcile with the laws of = thermodynamics, as they are now applied. Since the torque - which can is = captured from such an entropic explosion event can be efficiently = captured and converted into electricity or heat, there is an unusual = situation involved in computing the thermodynamic balance, giving the = superficial appearance of overunity. Not so - but the total system may = end-up being extraordinarily efficient, compared with combustion. That's the end (or beginning) of today's pregnant-thought. Sorry to = leave you dangling, but any more in one sitting might constitute... = err... carnivore-bait... Jones ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C6E2DD.0AA84ED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This partly science - partly current-events commentary ...
 
A particular terrorist explosive, the name of which need not be = mentioned=20 for present purposes, is quietly in the science news lately for a number = of=20 security-related reasons. But for alternative energy R&D, the more = specific=20 interest is related to its main but little-known physical anomaly. It is = peroxide based, but very different from conventional explosives in that = it does=20 not release heat during the explosion.
 
Did the full implications of that feature hit = you yet? 
 
If not, let me repeat:  it does not release heat during the = explosion!=20 At least not very much.
 
Irony-of ironies ! Would not it be some kind of poetic justice = in the=20 present socio-political climate (i.e. MidWest vs. MidEast, so to speak) = if the=20 fear-product of Islamic terrorism led directly to a major = alternative-energy=20 advance - which significantly lowered the demand for Middle-Eastern oil? = Not as=20 farfetched as one might imagine. Read-on.
 
The phase-change conversion of solid to gas (aka the steam engine) = normally=20 is a product of temperature addition, or combustion; and normally = results in=20 around a 1500-1 to 2000-1 volume change or correspondingly - a = pressure=20 differential of around 3000 psi max. This volume and pressure swing can = be=20 easily converted into energy using an ICE or turbine engine.
 
The process of energy conversion, like combustion, normally obeys = Boyle's=20 Law (kind-of): Here is NASA's graphic version of this law:
http://www= .lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/boyle.html
 
But what happens when the "Law" is broken, and rather explosively = ?
 
In the spirit of 'swords to plowshares' - the implication of = the=20 aforementioned phase-change bomb-anomaly is, of course, that when = an engine=20 is based on a similar chemical reaction, yet perhaps not quite so = dangerous as=20 the one in question, and is employed to convert gas-pressure to = torque -=20 then the Carnot limitations and other measures of energy/heat = content will=20 not apply in the same way as with real heat engines.
 
In fact, some observers might be led to opine that there is a = window of=20 opportunity for so-called "free-energy" here. However, it is more a = situation of=20 time-shifting and concentrating ambient heat over time into a subsequent = large=20 explosion in a comparative instant - rather than anything = mysterious or=20 'aetheric' - but "free-energy" has a nice "ring to it", don't you think? = And=20 aether is most likely involved somehow.
 
IOW a real violation of sacrosanct thermodynamic laws is = doubtful, as=20 the energy input is often merely shifted in time to the manufacturing = stage for=20 the alternative-fuel. For instance, in a related vein, several companies = are=20 trying to exploit compressed air as an alternative energy solution. A = compressed=20 air tank serves as a "battery", of sorts but unlike all known batteries, = this=20 one will last for decades instead of 5-6 years; and there is no phase = change=20 involved. In the situation of compressed air, there is an apparent = "entropic=20 expansion" as the air expands, reversing the Carnot assumptions. The = engine=20 often ices-up and can show well over 100% efficient - IF (big = if) -=20 one neglects the energy used to compress the gas.

There is a lesser known variant of this phenomenon which does = utilize=20 phase change, rather than compression, and the thermodynamic energy = balance is=20 more complicated. This phenomenon is scientifically known as 'Entropic=20 Explosion', and is reminiscent of the rapid reaction that produces gas = in the=20 safety air-bags of cars during accidents where one does not want to = substitute a=20 lesser burn injury for a major impact injury.
The Entropic Explosion (EE) phenomenon may serve to a lesser extent = to=20 explain how HOOH can be used as a monopropellant rocket fuel when its = apparent=20 energy content is low - much lower than the specific impulse of exhaust = would=20 indicate. Compared to burning hydrogen in oxygen, the specific impulse = of HOOH=20 monopropellant shows about a  five to one net advantage, = when=20 graphed against heat energy content of either fuel. Specific impulse = converts=20 directly into torque. There are also implications for expanding HOOH = through a=20 turbine in a closed cycle using a tiny amount of H2 as a "pilot" and = peroxide as=20 the oxidant/fuel. More on that later but the idea is that the advantages = of the=20 peroxide are so great that they will support on onboard electrolysis to = create=20 added synergy with some "high-mobility" H2 in the mix.

But to bring you up to date on what is probably a new concept = to many=20 (i.e. never before mentioned on this forum, as far as I can tell) : An = "entropic=20 explosion" is defined simply as an explosion in which the reactants = undergo a=20 large change in volume without releasing a large amount of heat. It is = real, but=20 not a highly favored event thermochemically - and involves a = so-called=20 "entropy burst," which some might categorize as very difficult to = reconcile with=20 the laws of thermodynamics, as they are now applied. Since the torque - = which=20 can is captured from such an entropic explosion event can be efficiently = captured and converted into electricity or heat, there is an unusual = situation=20 involved in computing the thermodynamic balance, giving the superficial=20 appearance of overunity. Not so - but the total system may = end-up=20 being extraordinarily efficient, compared with combustion.
 
That's the end (or beginning) of today's pregnant-thought. Sorry to = leave=20 you dangling, but any more in one sitting might constitute...=20 err... carnivore-bait... <g>
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C6E2DD.0AA84ED0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 28 09:38:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8SGcEM2014168; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 09:38:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8SGcB0q014117; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 09:38:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 09:38:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060928114232.04116ef8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:46:40 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70871 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: "The Great U.S. Energy Vacation" animated cartoon Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.sfgate.com/comics/fiore/ Here is another great one: "Petrotheism, the Quest for Fuel": http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2005/09/14/fiorepetro.DTL - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 28 14:52:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8SLqZ7Q022344; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:52:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8SLqVDa022275; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:52:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:52:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000701c6e349$a9123ba0$0200000a@dell> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: SUVs Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:01:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70872 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Steck" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:17 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: SUVs > Just a question to all the pontificators... how is a family of 5 or more to > travel about in this age of seat belts and car seats? Guess what... > minivans and SUVs for many of us are a legislated requirement not a luxury. > Minivans are ok in my book, our old Plymouth Voyager was excellent. I also never minded the old conversion vans, which when moving a large family were pretty efficient. I guess my main point was having to go through the ordeal of each morning having single 16-35 year old (primarily female) drivers commanding a monstrous SUV for no other reason than to have it as status symbol, attempt to occupy the same space as my (comparably) little Buick Regal. Usually while speaking on the cellular telephone. For large families, large vehicles make sense. Mostly what I (from a mechanics standpoint) am opposed to with SUVs is 1. They are mostly bought for no reason other than to show the status of the owner. 2. They are poorly designed in most cases, being awfully top heavy. 3. They are not as structurally sound as one would expect from something of that size. I am NOT opposed to large passenger cars. Or minivans or conversion vans or trucks. Even an SUV with an engine that gets decent efficiency and is built CORRECTLY would be ok. (read, it don't roll over) Driving the subcompact cars of today is suicide; for instance, the Smart Car. (stupid car?) Statistics show it to be ultra safe and hold up very well in an accident. Reality is far different. They are becoming very numerous in Canada, at least around Toronto, and the drivers just whip around in these things. I've seen one totalled, it was a fatality. Very nasty. My fiancee's father in law watched one hit an old Chrysler (ironic, no?). The Chrysler was moderately damaged, but not totalled, could drive away under its own power. No serious injuries. The driver and passenger of the Smart Car both died, one from being crushed between the door panel and fire wall, the driver from having his neck broken by an "unspecified component of the SRS." Probably the airbag. Yes, I've seen the videos of the Smart Car ramming a 20 ton concrete block. I also know very well what I have to work on that gets dragged (not always in one piece) to the shop, and I know that you can do all sorts of nifty things to make a video showing that some car is safe ramming a main battle tank. On the road, things are different. Nor do I like shock aborbers that have internal computers, which cost $1200 apiece....just wait till 2012 guys. 2008's a bitch too, with the new ECU architecture. Life's fun. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 28 16:00:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8SN076f021445; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:00:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8SMniet015349; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:49:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:49:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=idM6kaY3dsL6oW2xTFuIqyfvejCRelf7dxEBALqgf2pWRX2LLOOabZVnbRrH7uEdjkh9e/lbHqscXaUtsVH8qL2YSm5yrQNc7HucpdUMuiJRwsYAS4mJSnsvOGKxvK5LjVvFMuq8ESylYB74IGuWVTAiW7ukWcX6zkmVZ3Q0fhI= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:39:38 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: SUVs In-Reply-To: <000701c6e349$a9123ba0$0200000a@dell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_23398_18716733.1159483178423" References: <000701c6e349$a9123ba0$0200000a@dell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70873 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_23398_18716733.1159483178423 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Those small cars were something like 11 times more likely to kill you, plus they are ugly. On 9/29/06, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Steck" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:17 PM > Subject: RE: [Vo]: SUVs > > > > Just a question to all the pontificators... how is a family of 5 or more > to > > travel about in this age of seat belts and car seats? Guess what... > > minivans and SUVs for many of us are a legislated requirement not a > luxury. > > > > Minivans are ok in my book, our old Plymouth Voyager was excellent. I also > never minded the old conversion vans, which when moving a large family > were > pretty efficient. I guess my main point was having to go through the > ordeal > of each morning having single 16-35 year old (primarily female) drivers > commanding a monstrous SUV for no other reason than to have it as status > symbol, attempt to occupy the same space as my (comparably) little Buick > Regal. Usually while speaking on the cellular telephone. > > For large families, large vehicles make sense. Mostly what I (from a > mechanics standpoint) am opposed to with SUVs is > > 1. They are mostly bought for no reason other than to show the status of > the > owner. > 2. They are poorly designed in most cases, being awfully top heavy. > 3. They are not as structurally sound as one would expect from something > of > that size. > > I am NOT opposed to large passenger cars. Or minivans or conversion vans > or > trucks. Even an SUV with an engine that gets decent efficiency and is > built > CORRECTLY would be ok. (read, it don't roll over) Driving the subcompact > cars of today is suicide; for instance, the Smart Car. (stupid car?) > Statistics show it to be ultra safe and hold up very well in an accident. > Reality is far different. They are becoming very numerous in Canada, at > least around Toronto, and the drivers just whip around in these things. > I've > seen one totalled, it was a fatality. Very nasty. My fiancee's father in > law > watched one hit an old Chrysler (ironic, no?). The Chrysler was moderately > damaged, but not totalled, could drive away under its own power. No > serious > injuries. The driver and passenger of the Smart Car both died, one from > being crushed between the door panel and fire wall, the driver from having > his neck broken by an "unspecified component of the SRS." Probably the > airbag. > > Yes, I've seen the videos of the Smart Car ramming a 20 ton concrete > block. > I also know very well what I have to work on that gets dragged (not always > in one piece) to the shop, and I know that you can do all sorts of nifty > things to make a video showing that some car is safe ramming a main battle > tank. On the road, things are different. Nor do I like shock aborbers that > have internal computers, which cost $1200 apiece....just wait till 2012 > guys. 2008's a bitch too, with the new ECU architecture. Life's fun. > > --Kyle > > ------=_Part_23398_18716733.1159483178423 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Those small cars were something like 11 times more likely to kill you, plus they are ugly.

On 9/29/06, Kyle R. Mcallister < weir@fdscience.org> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Steck" < johnsteck@tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:17 PM
Subject: RE: [Vo]: SUVs


> Just a question to all the pontificators... how is a family of 5 or more
to
> travel about in this age of seat belts and car seats?  Guess what...
> minivans and SUVs for many of us are a legislated requirement not a
luxury.
>

Minivans are ok in my book, our old Plymouth Voyager was excellent. I also
never minded the old conversion vans, which when moving a large family were
pretty efficient. I guess my main point was having to go through the ordeal
of each morning having single 16-35 year old (primarily female) drivers
commanding a monstrous SUV for no other reason than to have it as status
symbol, attempt to occupy the same space as my (comparably) little Buick
Regal. Usually while speaking on the cellular telephone.

For large families, large vehicles make sense. Mostly what I (from a
mechanics standpoint) am opposed to with SUVs is

1. They are mostly bought for no reason other than to show the status of the
owner.
2. They are poorly designed in most cases, being awfully top heavy.
3. They are not as structurally sound as one would expect from something of
that size.

I am NOT opposed to large passenger cars. Or minivans or conversion vans or
trucks. Even an SUV with an engine that gets decent efficiency and is built
CORRECTLY would be ok. (read, it don't roll over) Driving the subcompact
cars of today is suicide; for instance, the Smart Car. (stupid car?)
Statistics show it to be ultra safe and hold up very well in an accident.
Reality is far different. They are becoming very numerous in Canada, at
least around Toronto, and the drivers just whip around in these things. I've
seen one totalled, it was a fatality. Very nasty. My fiancee's father in law
watched one hit an old Chrysler (ironic, no?). The Chrysler was moderately
damaged, but not totalled, could drive away under its own power. No serious
injuries. The driver and passenger of the Smart Car both died, one from
being crushed between the door panel and fire wall, the driver from having
his neck broken by an "unspecified component of the SRS." Probably the
airbag.

Yes, I've seen the videos of the Smart Car ramming a 20 ton concrete block.
I also know very well what I have to work on that gets dragged (not always
in one piece) to the shop, and I know that you can do all sorts of nifty
things to make a video showing that some car is safe ramming a main battle
tank. On the road, things are different. Nor do I like shock aborbers that
have internal computers, which cost $1200 apiece....just wait till 2012
guys. 2008's a bitch too, with the new ECU architecture. Life's fun.

--Kyle


------=_Part_23398_18716733.1159483178423-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 28 16:41:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8SNer1H012043; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:40:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8SNepsN012016; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:40:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:40:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000d01c6e358$ccbe7960$0200000a@dell> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <000701c6e349$a9123ba0$0200000a@dell> <6.1.1.1.1.20060928185701.01ec2210@pop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: SUVs Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:49:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70875 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Winestone" To: Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: SUVs > But NOBODY can answer the question I ask constantly (in fact I've been > greeted with consistently stony silence, even from journalists who write > about these things): Why are there no SUVs or plans for SUVs with diesel > engines in the works? Hmmm... that is a good question. Maybe it has to do with pollution (see below) but there seems to be more to it. Maybe the majority of the public doesn't want them? But that seems suspect too...I hear quite a few people wish for diesels here and there. Lack of performance? That doesn't work either, there are plenty of people buying underpowered gasoline four-bangers which just crawl along; they want economy over performance. So why not a diesel? Its an enigma. > And why do diesel engines command ENORMOUS > premiums. A chap I was talking to a few months ago, told me that the > premium for diesel in his Ford truck, was $7000. Not an insignificant chunk of change. Not sure exactly, however I do know that here in NY, there are certain Volkswagens which cannot be registered in New York state, and these are diesels with a particular kind of direct injection setup. I see them from time to time driven by out of state university students going to SUNY/UB. The mechanic I work with, who has done a lot with diesel, says it is a pollution issue, the diesels pollute more. But this is also upstate NY, so things don't often make sense. Under ideal conditions, when you factor in the increased efficiency (but reduced performance) of diesels versus gasoline, the diesel engine produces slightly less CO2, but more of basically everything else. Much more particulates. Of course, ideal conditions do not exist.... a normally maintained (read: poorly, for the average Joe) diesel is much more pollutive than a gasoline engine. NYS doesn't like this, so they pick on the diesels. Myself, I don't want a diesel, let alone a modern one; the maze of vacuum lines and Bible-size wiring diagram will frustrate to no end, and they are higher maintenance. I prefer something I can work on at home as much as possible, and for little expense, being a member of the local "Po' Folk" and all. They also tend to leak oil and diesel like no ones business, and that is certainly no good for anyone. Trying to keep one with age on it running well is a serious hassle, and cold startup complicates things further. That said, let the reader be aware that my experience with diesels is limited to the Mercedes-Benz turbodiesels and 1.9L VW TDIs. I have not worked on American diesels much at all, aside from our trusty tow truck (whose only problem is a poorly designed ABS system.) On the gripping hand....BMW diesels are QUIET. Disturbingly quiet. First time I heard one, I did not know it was a diesel! I have only worked on the one BMW diesel, but it was clean. If it is representative of most BMW diesels, then they have something good going on. I might not mind driving that, but given the price tag....yeah, I'll stick to Buicks and Chevys. > No point in having lots of biodiesel if you can't buy a decent, practical > (North American) vehicle with a diesel engine as an option. Biodiesel manufacture is starting to spring up around here. In the sleepy little town of Wheatfield (10-15 miles from Buffalo) there are some guys working on setting up a biodiesel plant. The town has apparently agreed to buy its diesel fuel from them, for construction equipment, trucks, etc. The only snag is funding; everyone wants to see it happen, but no one wants to sign a check. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 28 17:43:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8T0hGS0012675; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:43:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8T0hFlU012662; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:43:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:43:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Missing Subject Lines Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:43:04 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <1814987970.1159447979581.JavaMail.root@fepweb10> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Importance: Normal X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8T0hD71012636 Resent-Message-ID: <_sU8zB.A.yFD.jwGHFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70877 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Seems to have begun when we decided to preface the subject with the completely unnecessary "[Vo]". And isn't also interesting that the most vocal advocate of doing it (because apparently was too dense to set up basic message filtering on the list email address) no longer seems to be even subscribed anymore... nice. -j -----Original Message----- From: OrionWorks [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 7:53 AM To: vortex-l Subject: [Vo]: Missing Subject Lines Mr. Beaty, Is there anything I can do to make Vortex's list server stop randomly stripping the subject thread of some of my posts? It is becoming extremely annoying not knowing which of my posts are going to come through intact. My last post concerning political issues on energy development contained no unusual characters in the subject thread. I'm at a loss as to what to do to remedy the situation. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/OrionWorks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 28 16:05:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8SN5XG8025537; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:05:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8SN5Wkc025521; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:05:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:05:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=QpYPdHCijyXSygoEiCbOBzep0bgkUJ9Kw8ZE2eFnBAC0IG0XnP1E5ZHfaUjVffzophbn94baID4Sm+N8tRNpN6h+xFCHKlYj67ff5gOZHr5kp9IDUZ1AGyUdBudgi1ai+E8uXN7NfqREjta3+sVuOdswndIUYhzTROjwJTMjs9Q= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060928185701.01ec2210@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:03:06 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: SUVs In-Reply-To: <000701c6e349$a9123ba0$0200000a@dell> References: <000701c6e349$a9123ba0$0200000a@dell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70874 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: I have a SUV (Explorer) and I love it, simply because it's the only thing that keeps me sane driving in the long Canadian winter. Tried all kinds of cars; the Explorer wins. But NOBODY can answer the question I ask constantly (in fact I've been greeted with consistently stony silence, even from journalists who write about these things): Why are there no SUVs or plans for SUVs with diesel engines in the works? And why do diesel engines command ENORMOUS premiums. A chap I was talking to a few months ago, told me that the premium for diesel in his Ford truck, was $7000. No point in having lots of biodiesel if you can't buy a decent, practical (North American) vehicle with a diesel engine as an option. P. At 06:01 PM 9/28/2006 -0400, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "John Steck" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:17 PM >Subject: RE: [Vo]: SUVs > > > > Just a question to all the pontificators... how is a family of 5 or more >to > > travel about in this age of seat belts and car seats? Guess what... > > minivans and SUVs for many of us are a legislated requirement not a >luxury. > > > >Minivans are ok in my book, our old Plymouth Voyager was excellent. I also >never minded the old conversion vans, which when moving a large family were >pretty efficient. I guess my main point was having to go through the ordeal >of each morning having single 16-35 year old (primarily female) drivers >commanding a monstrous SUV for no other reason than to have it as status >symbol, attempt to occupy the same space as my (comparably) little Buick >Regal. Usually while speaking on the cellular telephone. > >For large families, large vehicles make sense. Mostly what I (from a >mechanics standpoint) am opposed to with SUVs is > >1. They are mostly bought for no reason other than to show the status of the >owner. >2. They are poorly designed in most cases, being awfully top heavy. >3. They are not as structurally sound as one would expect from something of >that size. > >I am NOT opposed to large passenger cars. Or minivans or conversion vans or >trucks. Even an SUV with an engine that gets decent efficiency and is built >CORRECTLY would be ok. (read, it don't roll over) Driving the subcompact >cars of today is suicide; for instance, the Smart Car. (stupid car?) >Statistics show it to be ultra safe and hold up very well in an accident. >Reality is far different. They are becoming very numerous in Canada, at >least around Toronto, and the drivers just whip around in these things. I've >seen one totalled, it was a fatality. Very nasty. My fiancee's father in law >watched one hit an old Chrysler (ironic, no?). The Chrysler was moderately >damaged, but not totalled, could drive away under its own power. No serious >injuries. The driver and passenger of the Smart Car both died, one from >being crushed between the door panel and fire wall, the driver from having >his neck broken by an "unspecified component of the SRS." Probably the >airbag. > >Yes, I've seen the videos of the Smart Car ramming a 20 ton concrete block. >I also know very well what I have to work on that gets dragged (not always >in one piece) to the shop, and I know that you can do all sorts of nifty >things to make a video showing that some car is safe ramming a main battle >tank. On the road, things are different. Nor do I like shock aborbers that >have internal computers, which cost $1200 apiece....just wait till 2012 >guys. 2008's a bitch too, with the new ECU architecture. Life's fun. > >--Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 28 17:02:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8T027ZN021954; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:02:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8T026pZ021941; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:02:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:02:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=xEHvqAP/A7jGL8DYV8KHwV08tXzbzZXFzH9whWfsmU7f43d36Dfe3mukf1/UXzFkvNogs9bEGa6EnWHZ6dCCjsJHtbmkrcsu1V0gW9aGyHWVq7uYMfPEJFhiQoPqX1VFXYH+ObMEVxdJ10s+KyUEIuE6/VxdlHdMzYOw1jDW7BY= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060928195445.01f55f10@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:59:44 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: SUVs In-Reply-To: <000d01c6e358$ccbe7960$0200000a@dell> References: <000701c6e349$a9123ba0$0200000a@dell> <6.1.1.1.1.20060928185701.01ec2210@pop> <000d01c6e358$ccbe7960$0200000a@dell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70876 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: Very interesting Kyle. The most comprehensive assessment I've ever read, of the diesel situation (or lack of it). Only one thing: from what I've heard and read, the days of slow, polluting diesels are apparently over (as you saw with BMW). And apparently it's not the visible pollution that kills, it's the invisible stuff. The visible stuff LOOKS ugly, but it's mostly carbon. Then there were the futile attempts by the US auto industry to sell diesel engines in their cars during the 70s - engines that were essentially modified gasoline engines. Wonder where these engineers are now? P. At 07:49 PM 9/28/2006 -0400, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Philip Winestone" >To: >Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 7:03 PM >Subject: Re: [Vo]: SUVs > > > > But NOBODY can answer the question I ask constantly (in fact I've been > > greeted with consistently stony silence, even from journalists who write > > about these things): Why are there no SUVs or plans for SUVs with diesel > > engines in the works? > >Hmmm... that is a good question. Maybe it has to do with pollution (see >below) but there seems to be more to it. Maybe the majority of the public >doesn't want them? But that seems suspect too...I hear quite a few people >wish for diesels here and there. Lack of performance? That doesn't work >either, there are plenty of people buying underpowered gasoline four-bangers >which just crawl along; they want economy over performance. So why not a >diesel? Its an enigma. > > > And why do diesel engines command ENORMOUS > > premiums. A chap I was talking to a few months ago, told me that the > > premium for diesel in his Ford truck, was $7000. > >Not an insignificant chunk of change. > >Not sure exactly, however I do know that here in NY, there are certain >Volkswagens which cannot be registered in New York state, and these are >diesels with a particular kind of direct injection setup. I see them from >time to time driven by out of state university students going to SUNY/UB. >The mechanic I work with, who has done a lot with diesel, says it is a >pollution issue, the diesels pollute more. But this is also upstate NY, so >things don't often make sense. > >Under ideal conditions, when you factor in the increased efficiency (but >reduced performance) of diesels versus gasoline, the diesel engine produces >slightly less CO2, but more of basically everything else. Much more >particulates. Of course, ideal conditions do not exist.... a normally >maintained (read: poorly, for the average Joe) diesel is much more pollutive >than a gasoline engine. NYS doesn't like this, so they pick on the diesels. > >Myself, I don't want a diesel, let alone a modern one; the maze of vacuum >lines and Bible-size wiring diagram will frustrate to no end, and they are >higher maintenance. I prefer something I can work on at home as much as >possible, and for little expense, being a member of the local "Po' Folk" and >all. They also tend to leak oil and diesel like no ones business, and that >is certainly no good for anyone. Trying to keep one with age on it running >well is a serious hassle, and cold startup complicates things further. That >said, let the reader be aware that my experience with diesels is limited to >the Mercedes-Benz turbodiesels and 1.9L VW TDIs. I have not worked on >American diesels much at all, aside from our trusty tow truck (whose only >problem is a poorly designed ABS system.) > >On the gripping hand....BMW diesels are QUIET. Disturbingly quiet. First >time I heard one, I did not know it was a diesel! I have only worked on the >one BMW diesel, but it was clean. If it is representative of most BMW >diesels, then they have something good going on. I might not mind driving >that, but given the price tag....yeah, I'll stick to Buicks and Chevys. > > > No point in having lots of biodiesel if you can't buy a decent, practical > > (North American) vehicle with a diesel engine as an option. > >Biodiesel manufacture is starting to spring up around here. In the sleepy >little town of Wheatfield (10-15 miles from Buffalo) there are some guys >working on setting up a biodiesel plant. The town has apparently agreed to >buy its diesel fuel from them, for construction equipment, trucks, etc. The >only snag is funding; everyone wants to see it happen, but no one wants to >sign a check. > >--Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 06:00:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TD0l6Q017178; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:00:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TD0dIs017103; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:00:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:00:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004401c6e3c7$3be92510$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <000701c6e349$a9123ba0$0200000a@dell> <6.1.1.1.1.20060928185701.01ec2210@pop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: SUVs Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 14:00:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <1oivoB.A.GLE.3jRHFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70878 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Philip Winestone wrote:- <> There don't need to be plans in the works. Diesel "SUV's" (or 4x4's, Chelsea tractors etc as we call them in Europe) are all over the place here. They actually get reasonable mileage per gallon and perform very well courtesy of the turbo units. The old style polluting, smelly, noisy engines are vey much in the past here. Very many personal cars in France are diesels. New car sales are about 44% diesel. In Europe, MPVs (minivans like the Renault Espace) have the biggest share of sales at more than 80 percent diesel followed by SUVs at just over 60 percent diesel. And also, diesel fuel tends to be quite a lot cheaper than petrol too (16% cheaper, on average across Europe). Nick Palmer Diesel Share Reaches New Record COUNTRY INCREASE NO. VEHICLES SHARE France 10.5% 1.046 million 49% Germany 20% 1.03 million 30.4% Italy 19% 814,000 33.7% Spain -- 733,000 53.1% U.K. 3% 313,000 14% Gas VS. Diesel Fuel Prices [*] (as of late July 2001) COUNTRY UNLEADED GASOLINE DIESEL Austria 3.22 2.68 Belgium 3.60 2.77 France 3.64 2.82 Germany 3.62 3.23 Netherlands 4.00 2.91 Italy 3.67 3.03 Spain 3.05 2.47 U.K. 4.32 4.29 U.S. 1.45 1.53 Source: European Road Information Service (Geneva) and Automobile Assoc. (*)Prices in dollars per gallon. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 11:03:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TI2aUS024570; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:02:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TI2ZeC024554; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:02:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:02:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=CZRknNGL0TbWPNVBBQDprpJ4qUyxIO9KMBJ9Hl3Em8Y/xJsJZ/DbZR1hre9q68INFzTwBS528vuhO2isk+uY2OS2Ybf5JQg5GYmRxngESsX6u4fg3EskGDSZrsmTZgwzqvlLXN62RTZZioK6Ef7wQLCRPkIhBItYzs8MfOcLH7A= ; Message-ID: <007401c6e3f1$6ee25cf0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:02:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70879 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: In order to provide a proper "Subject Header" (not to mention your antonym-of-the-day) and to clean-up typos and add some detail (yeah, yeah ... Form a more perfect Union, Establish Justice, Insure Domestic Tranquility, etc) ... this is mostly a repost. For the benefit of those who only use the Vortex archives, blank subject headings are becoming an inconvenience. Hope this one works. First a definition: "Specific impulse" - A term often used in rocketry or munitions, commonly abbreviated (Isp) which rates the efficiency of a propulsion system by the "impulse" (i.e. the change in momentum) per unit of propellant. The numerical dimension of specific impulse is either impulse per unit mass, or impulse per unit time; differing by a factor of g, the gravitational acceleration at the surface of the Earth. For example, the Specific impulse of HOOH monopropellant is about 160-175 (sec), but when burned as a bipropellant with gasoline or kerosene, this figure goes up to about 225, which is slightly less than hydrogen burned with oxygen - yet - the net heat energy of the gasoline is 13 times greater per volume than the heat energy of the peroxide. Huge anomaly. The anomaly, if you need it to be spelled out, is that the heat energy of the propellant is only moderately related to its specific impulse. "Common sense" scientific teaching indicates otherwise. There are only a couple of chemicals where this particular anomaly (of heat energy not correlating to thrust) occurs. A particular terrorist explosive, the name of which need not be mentioned for present purposes, is quietly in the science news lately for a number of security-related reasons. But for alternative energy R&D, the big news of interest is related to a surprising but little-known physical anomaly of the chemical, which is even absent in many older college level textbooks. The explosive is peroxide based, but very different from conventional explosives in that it does not release heat during the explosion. Did the full implications of that feature hit you yet? If not, let me repeat: this chemical explosive does not release heat during the explosion! At least not very much. Irony-of ironies ! Would not it be some kind of poetic justice in the present socio-political climate (i.e. MidWest vs. MidEast, so to speak) if the fear-product of Islamic terrorism led directly to a major alternative-energy advance - which significantly lowered the demand for Middle-Eastern oil? Not as farfetched as one might imagine. Read-on. The phase-change conversion of solid or liquid to gas (as in the steam engine) normally is a product of large energy input and temperature rise, based on combustion; and normally this results in around a 1500-1 to 2000-1 volume change; or correspondingly - a pressure differential of up to 3000 psi max. This volume and pressure swing can be easily converted into energy using an ICE or turbine engine, as is done in power plants all over the world. The process of energy conversion, like combustion, normally obeys Boyle's Law (kind-of): Here is NASA's graphic version of this law: http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/boyle.html But what happens when the "Law" is broken, and rather explosively ? In the spirit of 'swords to plowshares' - the implication of the aforementioned phase-change, of the bomb-anomaly variety is, of course, that when an engine is based on a similar chemical reaction, yet perhaps not quite so dangerous as the one in question, which explosion is employed to convert gas-pressure to torque - then the Carnot limitations and other normal measures of energy/heat content will not apply in the same way as with real heat engines. In other words, our normal assumptions about the relationship of heat energy to kinetic energy are flawed in this limited instance of peroxide-based chemicals. In fact, some observers might be led to opine that there is a window of opportunity for so-called "free-energy" here. However, it is less "free-energy" and more a situation of "time-shifting" - which is concentrating ambient heat (over time in a manufacturing process) into a subsequent large explosion in a comparative instant - rather than anything mysterious or 'aetheric'. But "free-energy" has a nice "ring to it", don't you think? And aether is most likely involved somehow. There is no real violation of sacrosanct thermodynamic laws, at least that is doubtful, as the energy input is often merely shifted in time to the manufacturing stage for the alternative-fuel. For instance, and in a related vein, several companies are trying to exploit compressed air as an alternative energy solution. This is feasible, but not optimum, A compressed air tank serves as a "battery", of sorts, but there is no phase change involved, and compressing a gas seldom returns over 50% of the energy expended. In the situation of compressed air, there is an apparent "entropic expansion" as the air expands, reversing the Carnot assumptions in the engine, but not overall. The compressed-air engine often ices-up, and can show well over 100% heat efficiency (infinite) - IF (big if) - one neglects the energy used to compress the gas. There is a lesser known variant of this phenomenon which DOES utilize phase change, rather than compression, and does not suffer the huge losses of compression but the thermodynamic energy balance is more complicated. This phenomenon is scientifically known as 'Entropic Explosion'. It is reminiscent of the rapid reaction that produces gas in the safety air-bags of cars during accidents, where one does not want to substitute a lesser burn-injury for a major impact injury. The Entropic Explosion (EE) phenomenon may serve to explain how HOOH can be used as a monopropellant rocket fuel when its apparent energy content is low - much lower than the specific impulse of exhaust would indicate. Compared to burning hydrogen in oxygen, the specific impulse of HOOH monopropellant shows about a five to one net advantage, when graphed against heat energy content of the base fuel system. Specific impulse converts directly into torque. There are implications here for expanding HOOH through a turbine in a closed cycle using a tiny amount of H2 (made onboard) as a "pilot" (to ensure complete conversion) and using peroxide as the oxidant/fuel. More on that later, but the idea is that the advantages of the peroxide are so great that they will even support a small onboard electrolysis unit used to create added synergy with the "high-mobility" H2 being added to the mix. But to bring readers here up to date on what is probably a new concept to many (i.e. never before mentioned on this forum, as far as I can tell) : An "Entropic Explosion" is defined simply as an explosion in which the reactants undergo a large change in volume without releasing a large amount of heat. The EE is real, but not a highly favored event thermochemically - as it involves a so-called "entropy burst," which is about as which some might categorize as very difficult to reconcile with the laws of thermodynamics, as they are now applied. Since the torque - which can is captured from such an entropic explosion event can be efficiently captured and converted into electricity or heat, there is an unusual situation involved in computing the thermodynamic balance, giving the superficial appearance of overunity. OU? - No - but the total system may end-up being extraordinarily efficient, compared with combustion. That is the exciting thing in this time-frame of exorbitant fuel costs. You might say that I am "blown away" by the potential advantages of the near-entropic-explosion of peroxides. There could be a better way on the immediate horizon - yet very few scientists are even aware of the possibilities. I would even go so far as to say that there is a distinct possibility that every single power station in operation should be making and burning peroxide with whatever carbon-based (methane, coal, oil, etc) fuel they are using, instead of air ! There is that kind of theoretical potential improvement available. That's the end (or beginning) of today's (actually yesterday's) pregnant-thought, and antonym-of-the-day. Sorry to leave you dangling, if you were expecting more - but one more mention of the x-word, without adding "big-bang" or some other modifier, might constitute... err... carnivore-bait... Jones For those who do not "get it" .. err... that last sentence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_%28FBI%29 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 11:14:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TIE2Ip004463; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:14:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TIE0Q8004438; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:14:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:14:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060929141058.04195558@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 14:14:03 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: SUVs In-Reply-To: <000701c6e349$a9123ba0$0200000a@dell> References: <000701c6e349$a9123ba0$0200000a@dell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70881 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Someone (John Steck?) wrote: > > Just a question to all the pontificators... how is a family of 5 or more >to > > travel about in this age of seat belts and car seats? Guess what... > > minivans and SUVs for many of us are a legislated requirement not a >luxury. Minivans get good gas mileage and they are much safer than SUVs. They are safer for everyone -- especially the passengers who ride in them -- but also people they collide with, and they collide less often. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 11:16:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TIFcNh005559; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:15:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TIFbYG005536; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:15:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:15:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=3HMN7PN4Jo4iSWAsBxH6o8OUe8hKW+usEOaD9HQjKO7Xf5iRKnAgco/kAx7ct1iEXiInNRTfRyrEr3rwJXOg8NFj4XXOoDKODFZ/nesz9NkzTRVI/P955PDyyPaT61zLumxQPexFAyiRKgLk/hBICxbX0FSyllaeVRxUYIGgl1c= ; Message-ID: <008601c6e3f3$41d257e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <007401c6e3f1$6ee25cf0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:15:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70882 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Status: O X-Status: WTF does one need to do to get the subject header to show up these days ? Fred mentioined some time ago - that in a reply, one needs to add a double space after eliminating the second "re:" - but do you need to add a double space on a new posting befor you type it in ? I never had to do that before. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 11:19:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TIIsmp008573; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:18:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TIIrCL008553; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:18:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:18:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=bMOljBHIHrfKD99c22sqOkPOOX9vAZ30W/SZ8+/8ZIWkskERkWPVtZgc4aZGkYFrhL3IXlLdw5Lu3hazS1xYluSDVXQ6gkgmqzoeytbDZ8NUcVaYtBclb5wl4FnVrphIGk3hGZXw+OvUOOUcY1YMOw3RO+wI3E/Iasb7K7EiBmc= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:18:52 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70883 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Testing Status: RO X-Status: testing subject. -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 11:20:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TIK3n8009490; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:20:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TIA9b1031853; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:10:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:10:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060929140918.03f5bbb8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 14:09:59 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, "vortex" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <007401c6e3f1$6ee25cf0$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <007401c6e3f1$6ee25cf0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <5bnjbB.A.VxH.AGWHFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70880 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >For the benefit of those who only use the Vortex archives, blank >subject headings are becoming an inconvenience. Hope this one works. It worked! It is blank. Blankety-blank-blank. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 11:22:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TIM7XH011968; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:22:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TIM4nT011932; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:22:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:22:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mSMCmcN8euKgfnp5m3fkAqxYrTOZpgdCcv10eGSMO59KzvEmh9RFANr1A7Re1qfQO3atWcp5Ba7FxNs0PVB3Y5NLfNFO8gWtHKRVu9Dx4+4RU09CR9qfIaPKzt86k3Jkwj4nEH4onJwXebBiT3b8UmO0WRxbvKx212CTfF3TrJc= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:22:03 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l Subject: Re: [Vo]: Testing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70884 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: well, all i did was write a suject in the subject field. are you adding the [Vo}: yourself jones? On 9/29/06, leaking pen wrote: > testing subject. > > -- > That which yields isn't always weak. > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 11:35:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TIZLW0020726; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:35:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TIZJNa020678; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:35:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:35:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=rFzsDG/M7P0sLh45JTU0OlVbb1BQFSSs7uDGtcjFDb4RGliQbrQAkqY3KiZLE0Dzo4PkKOOYlWvde3edDZ2RuDBwpAPeZdXoe9OeeEi4ODQsDdaTqVfemWI5SJ4C4Xa6Hl6OrCAhsR4U6LQ4fFoUw3J7lJOG9wZxeq60fgYck7M= ; Message-ID: <009501c6e3f5$fd7a4820$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Testing Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:35:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70885 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "leaking pen" > well, all i did was write a suject in the subject field. are > you > adding the [Vo}: yourself jones? No - did not add [Vo] but I started the message out in HTML (using Outlook Express) and then changed it to plain text at the end, as Vortex seems to be the only forum where readers complain it if it is not in plain. But I have always done this before and only seldom had the dropped subject. > That which yields isn't always weak. ... true, but often - that which is weak does not yield much Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 11:40:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TIe3Ap023329; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:40:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TId31G022847; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:39:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:39:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Testing Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 14:51:32 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70886 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, there are two options. A) Complain. or B) Debug Bills mail script, as follows. :0 * ! ^Subject: (Re:(\[[1-9]+\])? )?\[Vo\]: { :0 w CURRENT_SUBJ=| formail -zx Subject: :0 fhw | formail -I"Subject: [Vo]: $CURRENT_SUBJ" } K. -----Original Message----- From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:22 PM To: vortex-l Subject: Re: [Vo]: Testing well, all i did was write a suject in the subject field. are you adding the [Vo}: yourself jones? On 9/29/06, leaking pen wrote: > testing subject. > > -- > That which yields isn't always weak. > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 11:54:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TIrx0m030478; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:54:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TIruFP030454; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:53:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:53:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=F9Bc0CDOEy2EkvYAMgrTdDl33l0lYyDHxeX/14wuhIY0ve5UlbfKsdpt0stJbCBHHdm2h33S2ffFkqtAPbC2um1ZRFDxNvDY0mhBZJvyF4SFrrhgQLFHX1dCg06WFp5l1ESnP2eZ/6Q+nX0REbRYka3EhmzSwd87uay7Ramsf6c= ; Message-ID: <00ae01c6e3f8$98421520$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Testing Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:53:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70887 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Keith, Well ... as a notroious non-complainer ... > Debug Bills mail script, as follows. > > :0 > * ! ^Subject: (Re:(\[[1-9]+\])? )?\[Vo\]: > { > :0 w > CURRENT_SUBJ=| formail -zx Subject: > :0 fhw > | formail -I"Subject: [Vo]: $CURRENT_SUBJ" > } OK ... but assume that we do not all possess your programming acumen. How does one go about "Debugging Bills mail script" ?? is this done in Outlook Express? I am loathe to change mail clients as I have over 10 years worth of sorted messages From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 12:05:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TJ55tQ004187; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:05:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TJ54Ck004164; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:05:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:05:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Testing Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:17:40 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00ae01c6e3f8$98421520$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70888 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Jones, This is the mail script Bill posted to this forum several months ago when he implemented the new policy. Clearly, it has a bug. He installed it on his server, so someone needs to find the bug and correct it, then send him the revised version for him to install. Could I do this? Probably, but the language is unfamilar to me, I tend to work mostly in C++ these days and avoid the scripting stuff. I am however very curious who will take it upon themselves to do the work at hand and solve the problem. A social experiment, if you will. Again, here is the script. :0 * ! ^Subject: (Re:(\[[1-9]+\])? )?\[Vo\]: { :0 w CURRENT_SUBJ=| formail -zx Subject: :0 fhw | formail -I"Subject: [Vo]: $CURRENT_SUBJ" } K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:54 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Testing Hi Keith, Well ... as a notroious non-complainer ... > Debug Bills mail script, as follows. > > :0 > * ! ^Subject: (Re:(\[[1-9]+\])? )?\[Vo\]: > { > :0 w > CURRENT_SUBJ=| formail -zx Subject: > :0 fhw > | formail -I"Subject: [Vo]: $CURRENT_SUBJ" > } OK ... but assume that we do not all possess your programming acumen. How does one go about "Debugging Bills mail script" ?? is this done in Outlook Express? I am loathe to change mail clients as I have over 10 years worth of sorted messages From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 12:10:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TJA1ca007420; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:10:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TJ8HD9006486; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:08:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:08:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=W980SoCKis5Rky+gFuiIoSQdxtKwDoNhvomXokIaRqXLS+bphZ8TzbjAWIT6IBGPrm22RD3TYYV9E120NOAOUEUoUL+WwaY0btsdhtyicMfMXCnJlh0Ie0b+IQnopGYVzZIbDPg2bOV+cYAygIkSYBaTC7q7qQIZqSsN1AvuRhg= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:08:16 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8TJ8Gsh006462 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70889 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: SQM and the Observer Status: RO X-Status: http://www.world-science.net/othernews/060923_quantum.htm Physicists seek to put one thing in two places Sept. 25, 2006 Special to World Science Physi­cists say they have made an ob­ject move just by watch­ing it. This is in­spir­ing them to a still bold­er proj­ect: put­ting a small, or­di­nary thing in­to two places at once. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 12:24:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TJOMJT014498; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:24:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TJOLKV014479; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:24:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:24:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=sJfPlEBZNaHlYHZW3eeOWSeAo3B8wNq652NvzlmeE9Ne6b373bAz1aVNoV5rcCzDKLtKa73Nmwh0pYXJIMtDUxdOggHyMQ84XP8fdoGcdm7hfDikc5QoTumL2TmV15Oc+WFE0vCewWcl1cgrfzBT1M8DKpgAkH0RtmYGmJI/Nf0= ; Message-ID: <00d301c6e3fc$db593c40$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:24:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70890 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: In order to provide a proper "Subject Header" etc, etc.... this is a repost of a repost of a repost. Hope this one works now, since it was in plain-text from the git-go. First a definition: "Specific impulse" - A term often used in rocketry or munitions, commonly abbreviated (Isp) which rates the efficiency of a propulsion system by the "impulse" (i.e. the change in momentum) per unit of propellant. The numerical dimension of specific impulse is either impulse per unit mass, or impulse per unit time; differing by a factor of g, the gravitational acceleration at the surface of the Earth. For example, the Specific impulse of HOOH monopropellant is about 160-175 (sec), but when burned as a bipropellant with gasoline or kerosene, this figure goes up to about 225, which is slightly less than hydrogen burned with oxygen - yet - the net heat energy of the gasoline is 13 times greater per volume than the heat energy of the peroxide. Huge anomaly. The anomaly, if you need it to be spelled out, is that the heat energy of the propellant is only moderately related to its specific impulse. "Common sense" scientific teaching indicates otherwise. There are only a couple of chemicals where this particular anomaly (of heat energy not correlating to thrust) occurs. A particular terrorist explosive, the name of which need not be mentioned for present purposes, is quietly in the science news lately for a number of security-related reasons. But for alternative energy R&D, the big news of interest is related to a surprising but little-known physical anomaly of the chemical, which is even absent in many older college level textbooks. The explosive is peroxide based, but very different from conventional explosives in that it does not release heat during the explosion. Did the full implications of that feature hit you yet? If not, let me repeat: this chemical explosive does not release heat during the explosion! At least not very much. Irony-of ironies ! Would not it be some kind of poetic justice in the present socio-political climate (i.e. MidWest vs. MidEast, so to speak) if the fear-product of Islamic terrorism led directly to a major alternative-energy advance - which significantly lowered the demand for Middle-Eastern oil? Not as farfetched as one might imagine. Read-on. The phase-change conversion of solid or liquid to gas (as in the steam engine) normally is a product of large energy input and temperature rise, based on combustion; and normally this results in around a 1500-1 to 2000-1 volume change; or correspondingly - a pressure differential of up to 3000 psi max. This volume and pressure swing can be easily converted into energy using an ICE or turbine engine, as is done in power plants all over the world. The process of energy conversion, like combustion, normally obeys Boyle's Law (kind-of): Here is NASA's graphic version of this law: http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/boyle.html But what if the "Law" is broken, and rather explosively? In the spirit of 'swords to plowshares' - the implication of the aforementioned phase-change, of the bomb-anomaly variety is, of course, that when an engine is based on a similar chemical reaction, yet perhaps not quite so dangerous as the one in question, which explosion is employed to convert gas-pressure to torque - then the Carnot limitations and other normal measures of energy/heat content will not apply in the same way as with real heat engines. In other words, our normal assumptions about the relationship of heat energy to kinetic energy are flawed in this limited instance of peroxide-based chemicals. In fact, some observers might be led to opine that there is a window of opportunity for so-called "free-energy" here. However, it is less "free-energy" and more a situation of "time-shifting" - which is concentrating ambient heat (over time in a manufacturing process) into a subsequent large explosion in a comparative instant - rather than anything mysterious or 'aetheric'. But "free-energy" has a nice "ring to it", don't you think? And aether is most likely involved somehow. There is no real violation of sacrosanct thermodynamic laws, at least that is doubtful, as the energy input is often merely shifted in time to the manufacturing stage for the alternative-fuel. For instance, and in a related vein, several companies are trying to exploit compressed air as an alternative energy solution. This is feasible, but not optimum, A compressed air tank serves as a "battery", of sorts, but there is no phase change involved, and compressing a gas seldom returns over 50% of the energy expended. In the situation of compressed air, there is an apparent "entropic expansion" as the air expands, reversing the Carnot assumptions in the engine, but not overall. The compressed-air engine often ices-up, and can show well over 100% heat efficiency (infinite) - IF (big if) - one neglects the energy used to compress the gas. There is a lesser known variant of this phenomenon which DOES utilize phase change, rather than compression, and does not suffer the huge losses of compression but the thermodynamic energy balance is more complicated. This phenomenon is scientifically known as 'Entropic Explosion'. It is reminiscent of the rapid reaction that produces gas in the safety air-bags of cars during accidents, where one does not want to substitute a lesser burn-injury for a major impact injury. The Entropic Explosion (EE) phenomenon may serve to explain how HOOH can be used as a monopropellant rocket fuel when its apparent energy content is low - much lower than the specific impulse of exhaust would indicate. Compared to burning hydrogen in oxygen, the specific impulse of HOOH monopropellant shows about a five to one net advantage, when graphed against heat energy content of the base fuel system. Specific impulse converts directly into torque. There are implications here for expanding HOOH through a turbine in a closed cycle using a tiny amount of H2 (made onboard) as a "pilot" (to ensure complete conversion) and using peroxide as the oxidant/fuel. More on that later, but the idea is that the advantages of the peroxide are so great that they will even support a small onboard electrolysis unit used to create added synergy with the "high-mobility" H2 being added to the mix. But to bring readers here up to date on what is probably a new concept to many (i.e. never before mentioned on this forum, as far as I can tell) : An "Entropic Explosion" is defined simply as an explosion in which the reactants undergo a large change in volume without releasing a large amount of heat. The EE is real, but not a highly favored event thermochemically - as it involves a so-called "entropy burst," which is about as which some might categorize as very difficult to reconcile with the laws of thermodynamics, as they are now applied. Since the torque - which can is captured from such an entropic explosion event can be efficiently captured and converted into electricity or heat, there is an unusual situation involved in computing the thermodynamic balance, giving the superficial appearance of overunity. OU? - No - but the total system may end-up being extraordinarily efficient, compared with combustion. That is the exciting thing in this time-frame of exorbitant fuel costs. You might say that I am "blown away" by the potential advantages of the near-entropic-explosion of peroxides. There could be a better way on the immediate horizon - yet very few scientists are even aware of the possibilities. I would even go so far as to say that there is a distinct possibility that every single power station in operation should be making and burning peroxide with whatever carbon-based (methane, coal, oil, etc) fuel they are using, instead of air ! There is that kind of theoretical potential improvement available. That's the end (or beginning) of today's (actually yesterday's) pregnant-thought, and antonym-of-the-day. Sorry to leave you dangling, if you were expecting more - but one more mention of the x-word, without adding "big-bang" or some other modifier, might constitute... err... carnivore-bait... Jones For those who do not "get it" .. err... that last sentence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_%28FBI%29 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 12:43:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TJgpwQ026360; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:42:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TJgneM026330; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:42:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:42:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=gLVgCLnkoXyK5MXKWeEie72ONwKF1xUQnr39iF2FSdlgsgB+AJcwAsHZZ3OY80Xt1QJ9ICwGrj/SmxLQhUx33wplrJmXZGIiCxNSNBfh2QpG7fcgrkaoEmD0m3pwEkBEGlufW/nKHoqRm+MisBK2AoznTxXymDY9j5ZjnUr/SWc= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:42:47 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Testing In-Reply-To: <009501c6e3f5$fd7a4820$6401a8c0@NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <009501c6e3f5$fd7a4820$6401a8c0@NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70891 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ohh, youre using outlook express. thats your problem there. its a pos. ive had mails sent but not sent, subject lines mangled and dropped ALL the time when i was using it. On 9/29/06, Jones Beene wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "leaking pen" > > > well, all i did was write a suject in the subject field. are > > you > > adding the [Vo}: yourself jones? > > > No - did not add [Vo] but I started the message out in HTML (using > Outlook Express) and then changed it to plain text at the end, as > Vortex seems to be the only forum where readers complain it if it > is not in plain. But I have always done this before and only > seldom had the dropped subject. > > > That which yields isn't always weak. > > ... true, but often - that which is weak does not yield much > > Jones > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 13:50:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TKo8oR030478; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 13:50:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TKo3hh030402; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 13:50:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 13:50:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 13:45:53 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Seeing Tesla with new eyes In-Reply-To: <68A34DFE87D0BE46AF898FFCC65CCF8438F5A8@caraupermb02.carrier-apac.com.au> Message-ID: References: <68A34DFE87D0BE46AF898FFCC65CCF8438F5A8@caraupermb02.carrier-apac.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70892 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 John.Rudiger@carrier.utc.com wrote: > > Hey Bill, > > This is fantastic! Then take a look at THIS one: http://amasci.com/graphics/tesblb1b.jpg It's from "Electrical Experimenter" from 1919. June issue, I think. I always thought that these old Tesla bulb devices were the same as "plasma globes" with fingers of glowing gas inside. But instead, the glow penetrates the glass and extends into the room as a feet-long glowing discharge! Most probably it is a tesla-coil lightning bolt, but one which is following a beam of x-rays, so it becomes silent and constant, not branched like normal lightning. The x-rays pre-ionize the path. And because the x-ray flux would be different during the positive and negative parts of the AC, it probably functions as a rectifier, so it would put out some milliamps of DC into the room. (And therefore would become sensitive to magnetic fields!) Apparently this answers questions about the material below. If Tesla mounted such vacuum bulbs on the tips of his high-voltage antennas, they would produce ion beams which visibly glowed, and which functioned as antennas having not just long lenghts, but large surface areas (large capacitive coupling to distant emitters!) billb wrote: > I uploaded some crude screenshots taken from the film "The Secret of > Nikola Tesla." I'm very curious as to the original source of these > images. Who was the artist? On what were they based? From what I > understand of Tesla technology, they seem very accurate (also quite > revealing.) > > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tstowr.jpg > http://amasci.com/graphics/tsflyr.jpg > http://amasci.com/graphics/tspjctl.jpg > http://amasci.com/graphics/tsplane.jpg > http://amasci.com/graphics/tscar.jpg > http://amasci.com/graphics/tsfactry.jpg > http://amasci.com/graphics/tstrain.jpg > > These appear in the scene in the movie where Tesla visits JP Morgan and > tries to convince him to continue funding. Tesla shows a portfolio of > large-format artwork which he pages through to show Morgan what he's > planning: > > Note well the "searchlight beams" depicted as coming from the tips of small > high-voltage antennas in all the above artwork. WEIRD! Don't these beams > appear to be identical to the same "searchlights" depicted in other Tesla > artwork such as: > > Wardenclyff tower in operation > http://www.teslasociety.com/pictures/wardenc3.jpg > http://www.teslasociety.com/pictures/lightstower.jpg > > (And which artist created these two? How accurate are the details, i.e. > how much guidance did the artist receive from Tesla?) > > I'm tempted to conclude that *none* of these beams are supposed to be > searchlights ...and that all of them are detailed and accurate depictions of > Tesla's planned devices. For years I've been looking right at the key to > Tesla's devices, and not noticing it. I thought they were decoration: > searchlights added by some silly artist. > > If I'm guessing correctly, they are AC ion beams: they are long narrow > corona discharges; "virtual conductors" created in the air using Tesla bulbs > emitting high-power x-rays. (Those little antennas in the pictures of cars > and planes would have to have vacuum-bulbs in the tips of the > antennas.) In addition, the glowing beams are being used as power lines, or > as huge VLF antennas. There could be considerable AC amperage in those > glowing pathways. The high current would make them glow all the more. > > Remember that if we use high voltage and low current, we can make even a > fairly large resistor behave like a good conductor, and we can transfer very > large wattage at low loss. That was one of Tesla's main inventions: > thin power lines with transformers on either end! > > Why use these beams? Here's one example. If the Wardenclyffe tower was > operational, and if a large city needed more wireless power than was > available via many separate resonant loop antennas ...it could project a > vertical "conductor ray" upwards as an Ionospheric tap. Gain some extra > height: build the ray-projector on top of a tall building. This would be > combined with a large ground rod, and would be just like a "power line," > but would connect to the ionosphere layer which was driven by Tesla's main > tower built elsewhere. > > Another example: if an aircraft needed extra wattage, it could extend a > "conductor ray" downwards to make contact with the Earth (while the metal > skin and wings of the flyer would act as a capacitive antenna.) If it > needed still more power, it could launch another ray upwards... and that's > exactly what we see happening in this artwork: > > http://www.teslasociety.com/pictures/lightstower.jpg > > The skyscrapers send up beams! The airplanes send beams downward, and one > large flyer sends beams both up and down. > > It all makes perfect sense if we assume that the beams are conductors. > > Something else makes sense too. In this image a factory is being run by > wireless power: > http://amasci.com/graphics/tsfactry.jpg > One building has one of those little beam-emitting antennas. But in this > case there is another beam coming in from... beyond the mountains. The > "virtual conductors" connect together, and at the region where they join, > apparently Tesla employs a floating terminal (perhaps a metallized > balloon?) This does make sense as follows: a factory requires too much > wattage for simple wireless power, so instead a long conductive beam is sent > through the air from a distant power station. (In that case, is it still > "wireless" power?) > > And here's something that's a bit too much to be just cooincidence. Below > is a separate image from a magazine article, also apparently with a "Tesla > Bulb" sitting atop a coil and producing a fan-shape glowing beam. > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tesbeam.jpg > > If that bulb emits x-rays, then not only is the air conductive, but there > should also be a direct conductive path between the Tesla coil's main HV > terminal and the glowing beam. After all, the thin glass envelope is > conductive to AC (acting as capacitor dielectric.) The vacuum is > conductive, since it's filled with an electron cloud. And the internal > electrode is connected to the TC. So... rather than making a 10ft lightning > bolt, the x-ray bulb pre-ionizes the air and allows the Tesla coil to spew > out a fan-shaped glowing beam, a long narrow corona discharge. > > This perhaps solves another mystery too. Tesla was said to have lit his NYC > laboratory without using fluorescent tubes. Instead, supposedly he had a > way to make the air itself light up. If Tesla was producing a wide fan of > powerful x-rays, and if this was connected to a big Tesla coil, then this > would create a large-volume corona discharge. Turn the air into > a fluorescent tube! (Pretty cool, eh? We'll just ignore the bit about > irradiating our gonads.) > > What were these AC x-ray tubes like? There's an online article where Tesla > gives details. > > > ((((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( (o) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ > Research Engineer UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 > beaty@chem.washington.edu Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 > ph:206-543-6195 fax:206-685-8665 > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 14:53:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TLr34h000574; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 14:53:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TLqn6S000455; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 14:52:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 14:52:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=A533vFSSBaeiudHdl/LHHNcMi1Ozynv5j54vVqsCTVizg8D8NHy8u4ESaTjB87iO; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006952921539210@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 14:53:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d84340d9ee10add798d0d4dedc11da9357301ee85fcf877b1e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.232.60.91 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70893 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: (VO) FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 29, 2006 Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New To: Date: 9/29/2006 1:49:27 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 29, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 29 Sep 06 Washington, DC 1. DOVER PAYBACK: HOUSE VOTES TO LIMIT THE ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE. The nation was distracted this week: the leaked Intelligence Estimate on Iraq, a terrifying new report on global warming, continued high gas prices, a White House lobbying scandal that grew from "a few" contacts with Jack Abramoff to 485, not to mention the news that two men have stepped forward claiming to be the father of Anna Nicole Smith's baby. That allowed the House to quietly pass H.R. 2679, the "Public Expressions of Religion Protection Act of 2006," with scarcely a mention in the media. The bill would prevent plaintiffs from recovering legal costs in any lawsuit based on the "establishment clause" of the First Amendment, which of course only happens when the court finds the plaintiff's Constitutional rights have been denied. The Senate is expected to pass a companion bill, S. 3696. Congress cannot simply abridge the Bill of Rights. Maybe they think th Supreme Court is stacked. Or maybe it's the election. 2. GLOBAL TEMPERATURE CHANGE: TIME TO HEAD FOR HIGHER GROUND. Nothing irritates global warming deniers more than a new report from James Hansen's group at NASA, but warming seems to be taking place at the rate predicted 20 years ago. On Monday, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences published a new report from Hansen's group that says "the planet as a whole is approximately as warm now as at the Holocene maximum and within 1-degree C of the maximum temperature of the last million years." 3. POLITICS: SUPPORT GROUP FOR SCIENCE-FRIENDLY CANDIDATES. Organizers describe Scientists and Engineers for America as nonpartisan, but there is no denying that Bush Administration policies on science-related issues have not been popular in the science community. Two of the organizers, physicists Neal Lane and Jack Gibbons, were science advisors under Clinton. Susan Wood, who resigned from the FDA last year to protest inaction on making Plan B available over-the-counter, is another organizer. We have no word on whether Jack Marburger plans to join. 4. SPACE ELEVATOR: YOU MAY WANT TO TAKE THE STAIRS INSTEAD. Students in my Freshman class keep asking about space elevators. WN has never commented on the space elevator. It's not my field, but since when does that stop me? I keep thinking back to the tethered-satellite NASA spent years on. They deployed the 16km tether 256m before it stuck. They lost a $440M Italian satellite trailing a 12km tether. Now they want to tether a satellite from Earth? http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN96/wn030196.html 5. THE HIGH FRONTIER: FIRST FEMALE SPACE TOURIST BACK ON EARTH. Anousheh Ansari is back from her $20M bungee jump, along with snails, worms and barley grown on the ISS. We're not sure why. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 15:30:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8TMUB3d021109; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:30:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8TM4wal005852; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:04:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:04:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Jed's Edict Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 08:04:40 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <706rh2564bg6qai24aic9apuh25ohjsm8u@4ax.com> References: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060926142438.03e309f0@mindspring.com> <000f01c6e1ae$9160ff10$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <451AA3D8.2080507@usfamily.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20060927125929.04086c20@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060927125929.04086c20@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 29 Sep 2006 22:04:39 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k8TM4fLY005697 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70894 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:10:09 -0400: Hi, [snip] >The overall total energy produced >by wind is the same as the total energy from sunlight, which is no >coincidence, as Deffeyes pointed out. This is trivially false. The wind is the result of a heat engine, and no heat engine is 100% efficient. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 23:30:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8U6ToYQ001327; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 23:29:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8U6Tmma001304; Fri, 29 Sep 2006 23:29:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 23:29:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=tvOQJEvJSLyU+ro3qD3fULQfNZLUnoPZl594iQLaglLT7zWd//eW1m2Hx9JsEx68gGv6fZzE0CcymxZ4JBruHI4glidr/rHFGi6VrPX2v9mN7lmK8PJyIi+lAM88DKMPlZOoblrU1K7ySvRsTTamRfRFa+yv3dIExKti3R5BQTc= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 18:29:47 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Seeing Tesla with new eyes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_47609_9803129.1159597787895" References: <68A34DFE87D0BE46AF898FFCC65CCF8438F5A8@caraupermb02.carrier-apac.com.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70895 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_47609_9803129.1159597787895 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I have a friend, he's a bit odd, but anyway he told me about a friend of his (also John) who built a death ray, he isn't technical and I'm am doubtful he'd be able to come up with such interesting details, by using very strong UV lamps and high voltage was able to create just such a conductive channel through the air, he told me the guy had killed, I forget if it was a goat or a cow, maybe one of each with it. He asked his friend if I could have a look but his paranoid friend (who lives in isolation) didn't agree, and next time he told me that it wasn't working. (I forgot what he said blew) This was about a year ago if that. I'd say it's more likely than not he's on the level, he doesn't have interest in science in any form which makes the details (most of which I can't recall accurately enough to recount) he gave seem unlikely to be fabricated. On 9/30/06, William Beaty wrote: > > On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 John.Rudiger@carrier.utc.com wrote: > > > > > Hey Bill, > > > > This is fantastic! > > > Then take a look at THIS one: > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tesblb1b.jpg > > It's from "Electrical Experimenter" from 1919. June issue, I think. > > I always thought that these old Tesla bulb devices were the same as > "plasma globes" with fingers of glowing gas inside. But instead, the glow > penetrates the glass and extends into the room as a feet-long glowing > discharge! Most probably it is a tesla-coil lightning bolt, but one which > is following a beam of x-rays, so it becomes silent and constant, not > branched like normal lightning. The x-rays pre-ionize the path. And > because the x-ray flux would be different during the positive and negative > parts of the AC, it probably functions as a rectifier, so it would put out > some milliamps of DC into the room. (And therefore would become > sensitive to magnetic fields!) > > Apparently this answers questions about the material below. If Tesla > mounted such vacuum bulbs on the tips of his high-voltage antennas, they > would produce ion beams which visibly glowed, and which functioned as > antennas having not just long lenghts, but large surface areas (large > capacitive coupling to distant emitters!) > > > > > > billb wrote: > > I uploaded some crude screenshots taken from the film "The Secret of > > Nikola Tesla." I'm very curious as to the original source of these > > images. Who was the artist? On what were they based? From what I > > understand of Tesla technology, they seem very accurate (also quite > > revealing.) > > > > > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tstowr.jpg > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tsflyr.jpg > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tspjctl.jpg > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tsplane.jpg > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tscar.jpg > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tsfactry.jpg > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tstrain.jpg > > > > These appear in the scene in the movie where Tesla visits JP Morgan and > > tries to convince him to continue funding. Tesla shows a portfolio of > > large-format artwork which he pages through to show Morgan what he's > > planning: > > > > Note well the "searchlight beams" depicted as coming from the tips of > small > > high-voltage antennas in all the above artwork. WEIRD! Don't these > beams > > appear to be identical to the same "searchlights" depicted in other > Tesla > > artwork such as: > > > > Wardenclyff tower in operation > > http://www.teslasociety.com/pictures/wardenc3.jpg > > http://www.teslasociety.com/pictures/lightstower.jpg > > > > (And which artist created these two? How accurate are the details, i.e. > > how much guidance did the artist receive from Tesla?) > > > > I'm tempted to conclude that *none* of these beams are supposed to be > > searchlights ...and that all of them are detailed and accurate > depictions of > > Tesla's planned devices. For years I've been looking right at the key > to > > Tesla's devices, and not noticing it. I thought they were decoration: > > searchlights added by some silly artist. > > > > If I'm guessing correctly, they are AC ion beams: they are long narrow > > corona discharges; "virtual conductors" created in the air using Tesla > bulbs > > emitting high-power x-rays. (Those little antennas in the pictures of > cars > > and planes would have to have vacuum-bulbs in the tips of the > > antennas.) In addition, the glowing beams are being used as power > lines, or > > as huge VLF antennas. There could be considerable AC amperage in those > > glowing pathways. The high current would make them glow all the more. > > > > Remember that if we use high voltage and low current, we can make even a > > fairly large resistor behave like a good conductor, and we can transfer > very > > large wattage at low loss. That was one of Tesla's main inventions: > > thin power lines with transformers on either end! > > > > Why use these beams? Here's one example. If the Wardenclyffe tower was > > operational, and if a large city needed more wireless power than was > > available via many separate resonant loop antennas ...it could project > a > > vertical "conductor ray" upwards as an Ionospheric tap. Gain some extra > > height: build the ray-projector on top of a tall building. This would > be > > combined with a large ground rod, and would be just like a "power line," > > but would connect to the ionosphere layer which was driven by Tesla's > main > > tower built elsewhere. > > > > Another example: if an aircraft needed extra wattage, it could extend a > > "conductor ray" downwards to make contact with the Earth (while the > metal > > skin and wings of the flyer would act as a capacitive antenna.) If it > > needed still more power, it could launch another ray upwards... and > that's > > exactly what we see happening in this artwork: > > > > http://www.teslasociety.com/pictures/lightstower.jpg > > > > The skyscrapers send up beams! The airplanes send beams downward, and > one > > large flyer sends beams both up and down. > > > > It all makes perfect sense if we assume that the beams are conductors. > > > > Something else makes sense too. In this image a factory is being run by > > wireless power: > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tsfactry.jpg > > One building has one of those little beam-emitting antennas. But in > this > > case there is another beam coming in from... beyond the mountains. The > > "virtual conductors" connect together, and at the region where they > join, > > apparently Tesla employs a floating terminal (perhaps a metallized > > balloon?) This does make sense as follows: a factory requires too much > > wattage for simple wireless power, so instead a long conductive beam is > sent > > through the air from a distant power station. (In that case, is it > still > > "wireless" power?) > > > > And here's something that's a bit too much to be just > cooincidence. Below > > is a separate image from a magazine article, also apparently with a > "Tesla > > Bulb" sitting atop a coil and producing a fan-shape glowing beam. > > > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tesbeam.jpg > > > > If that bulb emits x-rays, then not only is the air conductive, but > there > > should also be a direct conductive path between the Tesla coil's main HV > > terminal and the glowing beam. After all, the thin glass envelope is > > conductive to AC (acting as capacitor dielectric.) The vacuum is > > conductive, since it's filled with an electron cloud. And the internal > > electrode is connected to the TC. So... rather than making a 10ft > lightning > > bolt, the x-ray bulb pre-ionizes the air and allows the Tesla coil to > spew > > out a fan-shaped glowing beam, a long narrow corona discharge. > > > > This perhaps solves another mystery too. Tesla was said to have lit his > NYC > > laboratory without using fluorescent tubes. Instead, supposedly he had > a > > way to make the air itself light up. If Tesla was producing a wide fan > of > > powerful x-rays, and if this was connected to a big Tesla coil, then > this > > would create a large-volume corona discharge. Turn the air into > > a fluorescent tube! (Pretty cool, eh? We'll just ignore the bit about > > irradiating our gonads.) > > > > What were these AC x-ray tubes like? There's an online article where > Tesla > > gives details. > > > > > > ((((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( (o) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))))) > > William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ > > Research Engineer UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 > > beaty@chem.washington.edu Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 > > ph:206-543-6195 fax:206-685-8665 > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > ------=_Part_47609_9803129.1159597787895 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I have a friend, he's a bit odd, but anyway he told me about a friend of his (also John) who built a death ray, he isn't technical and I'm am doubtful he'd be able to come up with such interesting details, by using very strong UV lamps and high voltage was able to create just such a conductive channel through the air, he told me the guy had killed, I forget if it was a goat or a cow, maybe one of each with it.

He asked his friend if I could have a look but his paranoid friend (who lives in isolation) didn't agree, and next time he told me that it wasn't working. (I forgot what he said blew)

This was about a year ago if that.

I'd say it's more likely than not he's on the level, he doesn't have interest in science in any form which makes the details (most of which I can't recall accurately enough to recount) he gave seem unlikely to be fabricated.


On 9/30/06, William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 John.Rudiger@carrier.utc.com wrote:

>
> Hey Bill,
>
> This is fantastic!


Then take a look at THIS one:

   http://amasci.com/graphics/tesblb1b.jpg

It's from "Electrical Experimenter" from 1919.  June issue, I think.

I always thought that these old Tesla bulb devices were the same as
"plasma globes" with fingers of glowing gas inside.  But instead, the glow
penetrates the glass and extends into the room as a feet-long glowing
discharge!  Most probably it is a tesla-coil lightning bolt, but one which
is following a beam of x-rays, so it becomes silent and constant, not
branched like normal lightning.  The x-rays pre-ionize the path.   And
because the x-ray flux would be different during the positive and negative
parts of the AC, it probably functions as a rectifier, so it would put out
some milliamps of DC into the room.   (And therefore would become
sensitive to magnetic fields!)

Apparently this answers questions about the material below.   If Tesla
mounted such vacuum bulbs on the tips of his high-voltage antennas, they
would produce ion beams which visibly glowed, and which functioned as
antennas having not just long lenghts, but large surface areas (large
capacitive coupling to distant emitters!)





billb wrote:
> I uploaded some crude screenshots taken from the film "The Secret of
> Nikola Tesla."   I'm very curious as to the original source of these
> images.  Who was the artist?  On what were they based?  From what I
> understand of Tesla technology, they seem very accurate (also quite
> revealing.)
>
>
> http://amasci.com/graphics/tstowr.jpg
> http://amasci.com/graphics/tsflyr.jpg
> http://amasci.com/graphics/tspjctl.jpg
> http://amasci.com/graphics/tsplane.jpg
> http://amasci.com/graphics/tscar.jpg
> http://amasci.com/graphics/tsfactry.jpg
> http://amasci.com/graphics/tstrain.jpg
>
> These appear in the scene in the movie where Tesla visits JP Morgan and
> tries to convince him to continue funding.  Tesla shows a portfolio of
> large-format artwork which he pages through to show Morgan what he's
> planning:
>
> Note well the "searchlight beams" depicted as coming from the tips of small
> high-voltage antennas in all the above artwork.  WEIRD!  Don't these beams
> appear to be identical to the same "searchlights" depicted in other Tesla
> artwork such as:
>
>   Wardenclyff tower in operation
>   http://www.teslasociety.com/pictures/wardenc3.jpg
>   http://www.teslasociety.com/pictures/lightstower.jpg
>
> (And which artist created these two?  How accurate are the details, i.e.
> how much guidance did the artist receive from Tesla?)
>
> I'm tempted to conclude that *none* of these beams are supposed to be
> searchlights ...and that all of them are detailed and accurate depictions of
> Tesla's planned devices.  For years I've been looking right at the key to
> Tesla's devices, and not noticing it.  I thought they were decoration:
> searchlights added by some silly artist.
>
> If I'm guessing correctly, they are AC ion beams: they are long narrow
> corona discharges; "virtual conductors" created in the air using Tesla bulbs
> emitting high-power x-rays.  (Those little antennas in the pictures of cars
> and planes would have to have vacuum-bulbs in the tips of the
> antennas.)  In addition, the glowing beams are being used as power lines, or
> as huge VLF antennas.  There could be considerable AC amperage in those
> glowing pathways.  The high current would make them glow all the more.
>
> Remember that if we use high voltage and low current, we can make even a
> fairly large resistor behave like a good conductor, and we can transfer very
> large wattage at low loss.  That was one of Tesla's main inventions:
> thin power lines with transformers on either end!
>
> Why use these beams?  Here's one example.  If the Wardenclyffe tower was
> operational, and if a large city needed more wireless power than was
> available via many separate resonant loop antennas  ...it could project a
> vertical "conductor ray" upwards as an Ionospheric tap.  Gain some extra
> height: build the ray-projector on top of a tall building.   This would be
> combined with a large ground rod, and would be just like a "power line,"
> but would connect to the ionosphere layer which was driven by Tesla's main
> tower built elsewhere.
>
> Another example: if an aircraft needed extra wattage, it could extend a
> "conductor ray" downwards to make contact with the Earth (while the metal
> skin and wings of the flyer would act as a capacitive antenna.)  If it
> needed still more power, it could launch another ray upwards...  and that's
> exactly what we see happening in this artwork:
>
>  http://www.teslasociety.com/pictures/lightstower.jpg
>
> The skyscrapers send up beams!  The airplanes send beams downward, and one
> large flyer sends beams both up and down.
>
> It all makes perfect sense if we assume that the beams are conductors.
>
> Something else makes sense too.  In this image a factory is being run by
> wireless power:
> http://amasci.com/graphics/tsfactry.jpg
> One building has one of those little beam-emitting antennas.  But in this
> case there is another beam coming in from... beyond the mountains.  The
> "virtual conductors" connect together, and at the region where they join,
> apparently Tesla employs a floating terminal (perhaps a metallized
> balloon?)   This does make sense as follows: a factory requires too much
> wattage for simple wireless power, so instead a long conductive beam is sent
> through the air from a distant power station.  (In that case, is it still
> "wireless" power?)
>
> And here's something that's a bit too much to be just cooincidence.  Below
> is a separate image from a magazine article, also apparently with a "Tesla
> Bulb" sitting atop a coil and producing a fan-shape glowing beam.
>
> http://amasci.com/graphics/tesbeam.jpg
>
> If that bulb emits x-rays, then not only is the air conductive, but there
> should also be a direct conductive path between the Tesla coil's main HV
> terminal and the glowing beam.  After all, the thin glass envelope is
> conductive to AC (acting as capacitor dielectric.)  The vacuum is
> conductive, since it's filled with an electron cloud.  And the internal
> electrode is connected to the TC.  So... rather than making a 10ft lightning
> bolt, the x-ray bulb pre-ionizes the air and allows the Tesla coil to spew
> out a fan-shaped glowing beam, a long narrow corona discharge.
>
> This perhaps solves another mystery too.  Tesla was said to have lit his NYC
> laboratory without using fluorescent tubes.  Instead, supposedly he had a
> way to make the air itself light up.  If Tesla was producing a wide fan of
> powerful x-rays, and if this was connected to a big Tesla coil, then this
> would create a large-volume corona discharge.  Turn the air into
> a fluorescent tube!   (Pretty cool, eh?  We'll just ignore the bit about
> irradiating our gonads.)
>
> What were these AC x-ray tubes like?  There's an online article where Tesla
> gives details.
>
>
> ((((((((((((((((((((((( (  (    (o)    )  ) )))))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty              http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/
> Research Engineer             UW Chem Dept,  Bagley Hall RM74
> beaty@chem.washington.edu     Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700
> ph:206-543-6195 fax:206-685-8665
>

(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  425-222-5066    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci


------=_Part_47609_9803129.1159597787895-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 30 01:59:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8U8wgbE012207; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:58:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8U8wcR3012176; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:58:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:58:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=sRDrpLGqZ9xOomB579FU8Qhb3O3g9ntOv4FllC9Dsxfypit+CMMNN5vpVI1+813qWiQq6wbTwGVhAB45+D3dXqkJJPhzfD/SpKbum9yzj4GrbAbMtRxupGHpHJoEgiJzDz3CZIvz3YqpBeLDFI1SyPUrdxh8ikWr4rOBGYnXn4s= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 20:58:36 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Jed's Edict In-Reply-To: <706rh2564bg6qai24aic9apuh25ohjsm8u@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_48093_22237767.1159606716171" References: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060926142438.03e309f0@mindspring.com> <000f01c6e1ae$9160ff10$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <451AA3D8.2080507@usfamily.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20060927125929.04086c20@mindspring.com> <706rh2564bg6qai24aic9apuh25ohjsm8u@4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70896 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_48093_22237767.1159606716171 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The answer is either free energy devices or solar, wind, wave, tide etc.. generators and then rather than scrapping cars make a synthetic fuel: http://jlnlabs.online.fr/bingofuel/html/bfr10.htm Encourage full electric and as an alternative hybrid, and for those unable to switch to more efficient technologies ever or immediately go synthetic. Why have a debate about junking all cars when synthetic fuel is such an obvious answer. On 9/30/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:10:09 > -0400: > Hi, > [snip] > >The overall total energy produced > >by wind is the same as the total energy from sunlight, which is no > >coincidence, as Deffeyes pointed out. > > This is trivially false. The wind is the result of a heat engine, > and no heat engine is 100% efficient. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > ------=_Part_48093_22237767.1159606716171 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The answer is either free energy devices or solar, wind, wave, tide etc.. generators and then rather than scrapping cars make a synthetic fuel:

http://jlnlabs.online.fr/bingofuel/html/bfr10.htm

Encourage full electric and as an alternative hybrid, and for those unable to switch to more efficient technologies ever or immediately go synthetic.

Why have a debate about junking all cars when synthetic fuel is such an obvious answer.


On 9/30/06, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:10:09
-0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>The overall total energy produced
>by wind is the same as the total energy from sunlight, which is no
>coincidence, as Deffeyes pointed out.

This is trivially false. The wind is the result of a heat engine,
and no heat engine is 100% efficient.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.


------=_Part_48093_22237767.1159606716171-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 30 05:32:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8UCWmiU031526; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 05:32:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8UCWkZN031501; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 05:32:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 05:32:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c6e48c$7d477ff0$ab037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Seeing Tesla with new eyes Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 07:32:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6E462.93215140"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70897 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6E462.93215140 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6E462.93245E80" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6E462.93245E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJohn Berry wrote.. >I have a friend, he's a bit odd, but anyway he told me about a friend = of his (also John) who built a death ray, he isn't technical and I'm am = doubtful he'd be able to come up with such interesting details, by using = very strong UV lamps and high voltage was able to create just such a = conductive channel through the air, he told me the guy had killed, I = forget if it was a goat or a cow, maybe one of each with it.=20 He asked his friend if I could have a look but his paranoid friend (who = lives in isolation) didn't agree, and next time he told me that it = wasn't working. (I forgot what he said blew) This was about a year ago if that.=20 I'd say it's more likely than not he's on the level, he doesn't have = interest in science in any form which makes the details (most of which I = can't recall accurately enough to recount) he gave seem unlikely to be = fabricated.=20 Howdy John, After all John, what are friends for? Used to have a friend like that = myself. LIved over near Cat Spring ,Texas in an ole house next to the = abandoned railroad tracks ('bout 40 some miles over from Dime Box, = Texas). Anyways, this fella could sit in his front porch rockin' chair = and drink " white lighnin". He could actually see and hear the ole = steam locomotive coming into town 100 years after they tore up the = tracks and the last train ran. Now, that's what you call science. He had this trick.. he could drink corn squeezing and chew tobacco both = at the same time. Well... err... that is ' till one night he accidently = washed down a whole plug of "Wedding Cake" chewing tobacco with a = healthy "swig" of white lighnin. What happened next could be described sorta like what happened to your = friend.. septin.. my friend spent the next few days in the outhouse... = funny thing .. he never heard or saw any more steam locomotives.. but = that science for you... can't always reproduce an experiment. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6E462.93245E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
John Berry wrote..
 
>I have a friend, he's a bit odd, but anyway he told me about a = friend=20 of his (also John) who built a death ray, he isn't technical and I'm am = doubtful=20 he'd be able to come up with such interesting details, by using very = strong UV=20 lamps and high voltage was able to create just such a conductive channel = through=20 the air, he told me the guy had killed, I forget if it was a goat or a = cow,=20 maybe one of each with it.
He asked his friend if I could have a = look but=20 his paranoid friend (who lives in isolation) didn't agree, and next time = he told=20 me that it wasn't working. (I forgot what he said blew)

This was = about a=20 year ago if that.

I'd say it's more likely than not he's on the = level,=20 he doesn't have interest in science in any form which makes the details = (most of=20 which I can't recall accurately enough to recount) he gave seem unlikely = to be=20 fabricated.
 

Howdy John,
 
After all John, what are friends for? Used to have a friend like = that=20 myself. LIved over near Cat Spring ,Texas in an ole house next to the = abandoned=20 railroad tracks  ('bout 40 some miles over from Dime Box,=20 Texas).   Anyways, this fella could sit in his front porch = rockin'=20 chair  and drink " white lighnin". He could actually see and hear = the ole=20 steam locomotive coming into town 100 years after they tore up the = tracks and=20 the last train ran.
 
Now, that's what you call science.
 
He had this trick.. he could drink corn squeezing and chew tobacco = both at=20 the same time.  Well... err... that is ' till one night he = accidently=20 washed down a whole plug of "Wedding Cake" chewing tobacco with a = healthy "swig"=20 of white lighnin.
What happened next could be described sorta like what happened to = your=20 friend.. septin.. my friend spent the next few days in the outhouse... = funny=20 thing .. he never heard or saw any more steam locomotives.. but that = science for=20 you... can't always reproduce an experiment.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6E462.93245E80-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6E462.93215140 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c6e48c$7bcdff50$ab037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6E462.93215140-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 30 09:27:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8UGQwPa019205; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:26:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8UGQuEx019132; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:26:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:26:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: "Vortex" Cc: "svj" Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 11:26:38 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70898 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Free Google Videos on Alternative/Free energy Status: O X-Status: Vorts, during your copious amounts of free time: There are numerous free Google Videos (both in MAC/Window format as well as in IPOD format) ready for download. There's a fun category that deals with alternative/free energy topics as well. One of my favorites was a general survey on "free energy" devices, an hour and fifty minute presentation including interviews and "FE" demonstrations from all sorts of obscure and perhaps not-so-obscure inventors, including demonstrations of the mysterious Hutchison effect. Some of the names you will recognize, including a series of interviews with the late Eugene Mallove. There were also plenty of demonstrations from other less well-known inventors where, well, I wonder what has happened to them and their contraptions. No doubt, they have been abducted. Go to Google's new "video" link and key in: "Free Energy The Race to Zero Point Energy." I believe this particular production is about 10 years old. I found it was easier viewing when I downloaded and installed Google's unique video player. It would be nice if Google's video format were at least compatible with most other video players. At present, it isn't. Sigh. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/OrionWorks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 30 09:36:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8UGa4QJ029026; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:36:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8UGa1vK028993; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:36:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:36:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 12:35:48 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Jed's Edict In-reply-to: <706rh2564bg6qai24aic9apuh25ohjsm8u@4ax.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70899 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:10:09 > -0400: > Hi, > [snip] >> The overall total energy produced >> by wind is the same as the total energy from sunlight, which is no >> coincidence, as Deffeyes pointed out. > > This is trivially false. The wind is the result of a heat engine, > and no heat engine is 100% efficient. > Regards, > Since the mid 18th century, physicists have glorified Nature as an efficient user of energy. (The surface of a soap bubble as an area of minimum energy is a prime example of this way of thinking about Nature.) Taking away Nature's crown of energy efficiency will rock the conceptual foundations of physics. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 30 09:53:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8UGrLRV007034; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:53:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8UGrJwN007000; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:53:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:53:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 12:53:07 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Seeing Tesla with new eyes In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70900 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A William Beaty wrote: > On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 John.Rudiger@carrier.utc.com wrote: > >> >> Hey Bill, >> >> This is fantastic! > > > Then take a look at THIS one: > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tesblb1b.jpg > > It's from "Electrical Experimenter" from 1919. June issue, I think. > > I always thought that these old Tesla bulb devices were the same as > "plasma globes" with fingers of glowing gas inside. But instead, the glow > penetrates the glass and extends into the room as a feet-long glowing > discharge! Most probably it is a tesla-coil lightning bolt, but one which > is following a beam of x-rays, so it becomes silent and constant, not > branched like normal lightning. The x-rays pre-ionize the path. And > because the x-ray flux would be different during the positive and negative > parts of the AC, it probably functions as a rectifier, so it would put out > some milliamps of DC into the room. (And therefore would become > sensitive to magnetic fields!) > > Apparently this answers questions about the material below. If Tesla > mounted such vacuum bulbs on the tips of his high-voltage antennas, they > would produce ion beams which visibly glowed, and which functioned as > antennas having not just long lenghts, but large surface areas (large > capacitive coupling to distant emitters!) > Recently on TV there was a show about 'sprites' -- this is high altitude lightning which shoots up into outer space. Could the Earth be acting like a giant Tesla bulb? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 30 14:52:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8ULqOse003907; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 14:52:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8ULqNoU003887; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 14:52:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 14:52:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <451EA21A.1F6E76EC@centurytel.net> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 16:58:02 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70901 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Seeing Tesla with new eyes Status: RO X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > > William Beaty wrote: > > > On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 John.Rudiger@carrier.utc.com wrote: > > > >> > >> Hey Bill, > >> > >> This is fantastic! > > > > > > Then take a look at THIS one: > > > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tesblb1b.jpg > > > > It's from "Electrical Experimenter" from 1919. June issue, I think. > > > > I always thought that these old Tesla bulb devices were the same as > > "plasma globes" with fingers of glowing gas inside. But instead, the glow > > penetrates the glass and extends into the room as a feet-long glowing > > discharge! Hi All, I wonder if this has something to do the ball lightning I saw come through a glass door. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 30 20:30:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k913UBtc012596; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 20:30:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k913KqAo007925; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 20:20:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 20:20:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=PB3664vACsp3VC8cKYIEpBtx6bfSH4Hs8FKw5EXMwgXJMoBkmI46n/TnZK/xQ8eA0+t/z5fhKxdm8xF+CS9af37eDMUVjNCcyCzDzKEvj99Bjf+MB4v90pXCLurwJfw/HBbTHvIb0xjsGG0RbUPNEBlh7vOWioE1ZyjYER5xPFQ= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:04:19 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70902 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: New Segway Products Status: O X-Status: This site contains some vids of the new battlefield technology: http://www.newscientisttech.com/article/dn10174-uncrewed-aircraft-swarm-together-indoors.html http://tinyurl.com/oukt8 On 8/11/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > One is the Robotic Mobility Platform: > > http://www.segway.com/products/rmp/ > > A friend told me about this several months ago (before it was > announced). This person was writing systems integration software for > military robots. One comment was, imagine a Segway with a chain gun > rolling into a batch of bad guys and spinning wheels in opposite > directions while firing. > > Hopefully, the next battlefield will have only bad guy blood spilled on it. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 30 21:13:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k914CxcH032388; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 21:13:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k914CwGD032378; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 21:12:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 21:12:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 22:50:45 -0400 From: Standing Bear In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle@lakeside1.net Message-id: <200609302250.45153.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell> <706rh2564bg6qai24aic9apuh25ohjsm8u@4ax.com> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70903 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Chinese Tokomak Fusion Status: O X-Status: Has anyone got anything more about the recent Chinese claim of producing fusion power from their 'EAST' reactor. They claim the production of two hundred thousand amperes of fusion generated current at a temperature of a hundred million degrees of the plasma for a duration of three seconds. They plan ultimately to continue the experiment hoping to boost generation time up to a thousand seconds or more. See URL: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/28/1835241 for the initial post on slashdot; and the following long URL from Reuters: http://today.reuters.com/news/ articlenews.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyID=2006-09-28T121949Z_01_PEK359321_RTRUKOC_0_US-CHINA-FUSION.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C5-scienceNews-2 And here is the shorter URL for the story from Xinhua: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-09/28/content_699035.htm China claims to want to build about 30 nuclear projects by 2020 to help deal with their energy shortages in their industrial sector and to accomodate future growth. Does'nt look as if they want to wait for ITER! Standing Bear PS The Chinese are also interested in the Shawyer photonic drive device. Wanted to buy the rights to it. Output of this reactantless drive uses Einstein's laws and is greatly amplified using cryogenic techniques.. see recent issue of "New Scientist". Presumably a greatly improved cavity 'Q' would give this the punch of a Space Shuttle Main Engine or more. All they need is power.......... SEE ABOVE! Maybe this is the first puff of wind from a storm that will blow us into a new era. I left something out, but it is in the 'New Scientist' article. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 30 22:44:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k915idtX003735; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 22:44:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k915ib59003710; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 22:44:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 22:44:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c6e51c$aaabd230$42dd163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <006001c6e197$fec60760$6401a8c0@NuDell><706rh2564bg6qai24aic9apuh25ohjsm8u@4ax.com> <200609302250.45153.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 01:44:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <_uV9yD.A.w5.FX1HFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70904 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Chinese Tokomak Fusion Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Standing Bear" To: Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:50 PM Subject: [Vo]: Chinese Tokomak Fusion > PS The Chinese are also interested in the Shawyer photonic drive device. > Wanted to buy the rights to it. I think its interesting that, should a reactionless drive actually be invented, (I do not know what is going on with Shawyer, the information that I have seen is a bit troubling, possibly some big mistakes made), that anyone will actually respect "rights to it." In any case, in my view, should China ever get "rights" to something like this, we should ignore it, and build ours anyways. Should they complain, tell them to go screw off: its just back payment for everything they stole from the west. In any case, its like trying to liscense the use of relativity. > Maybe this is the first puff of > wind from a storm that will blow us into a new era. Consider the storms made by an impacting small asteroid, maybe pushed down by a Chinese spacecraft? I do not like the idea of the Chinese having "Space Superiority". There are plenty of rocks to find up there, just waiting for someone to give them a nudge. I get a frightening thought of a colony of Muslim fanatics in the asteroid belt....if most civilizations produce backwards, fanatical cultures within themselves, it might explain the Fermi paradox. Space is the new high ground, and it will be a new battleground. But, I suppose that is just our nature. We are explorers and conquerors. Maybe that is what is causing the US to spiral down so badly; we have lost the drive to go to new places, that spirit of conquering the unknown that puts humans at their best. I do see one thing that might be good about the new frontier of space: it is going to be an unparalleled challenge. If it is so much harder to tame than what we have ever had to deal with before, then maybe, just maybe, we might all work together in its conquest. On that note, I think that if we do not move on to explore and conquer space, we will eventually destroy ourselves one way or another; it won't be from depletion of resources, or lack of new energy sources, or global whatever. Apathy will set in, people will get further into the spirit of today's youth, the "I don't care, lets just get stoned and have tons of sex" attitude, and when the big problems come to face us, we won't have a solution. Not because it doesn't exist, but because we just didn't give a damn. The cold fusion situation might be a good example of this. If I were to write the epitaph on some future gravestone of the human race, it would be very simple. SELF LIMITING. Me, I prefer what the fictional character of Khan Noonien-Singh said.... "And I got what I wanted. A world to win, an empire to build." Man, I'm too young to be this depressing.... --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 30 23:59:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k916x0LZ030948; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:59:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k916wwpo030925; Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:58:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:58:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=jkP7EgipdhXe1Wlii09ejy5jmGD98nRZX51dPLKWJD90v21fchuobLM6hV37kHo/++V5oVIxBaFoz5pqDpoR7rfdwMMevvb5UF+cfmpm2xSknxFZCbY/vNbbz8iuW/0IGe1eyNx8jjvmb8szB2terLwboksuEZ9Fs3jKrrrS1/w= Message-ID: <538fa8f10609302358w6a1624d4laa3ed3eaedee2424@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 09:58:55 +0300 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Free Google Videos on Alternative/Free energy Cc: svj In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_29060_28692340.1159685935699" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70905 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_29060_28692340.1159685935699 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline here is a large selection of youtube + googlevideo free energy alternative energy vortex magnets etc stuff from peswiki. its open to all to add more stuff, but it is very comprehensive. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Videos On 9/30/06, Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > > Vorts, during your copious amounts of free time: > > There are numerous free Google Videos (both in MAC/Window format as well > as > in IPOD format) ready for download. There's a fun category that deals with > alternative/free energy topics as well. > > One of my favorites was a general survey on "free energy" devices, an hour > and fifty minute presentation including interviews and "FE" demonstrations > from all sorts of obscure and perhaps not-so-obscure inventors, including > demonstrations of the mysterious Hutchison effect. Some of the names you > will recognize, including a series of interviews with the late Eugene > Mallove. There were also plenty of demonstrations from other less > well-known > inventors where, well, I wonder what has happened to them and their > contraptions. No doubt, they have been abducted. > > Go to Google's new "video" link and key in: > > "Free Energy The Race to Zero Point Energy." > > I believe this particular production is about 10 years old. > > I found it was easier viewing when I downloaded and installed Google's > unique video player. It would be nice if Google's video format were at > least > compatible with most other video players. At present, it isn't. Sigh. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.Zazzle.com/OrionWorks > > -- ++++ Website: http://www.lackluster.org/ Webshop: http://www.lackluster.org/shop/ Announcements: http://www.yahoogroups.com/groups/lackluster Last.FM radio: http://last.fm/label/lackluster Beatport Download: http://www.beatport.com/lackluster Bleep Download: http://www.bleep.com/search.php?search=Lackluster Video: http://www.dailymotion.com/search/lackluster/1 Kompaktkiste: http://www.kompaktkiste.de/lackluster.htm Discogs: http://www.discogs.com/artist/Lackluster Demo-Discography: http://www.scene.org/~esa/ ------=_Part_29060_28692340.1159685935699 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline here is a large selection of youtube + googlevideo  free energy alternative energy vortex magnets etc stuff from peswiki. its open to all to add more stuff, but it is very comprehensive.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Videos

On 9/30/06, Steven Vincent Johnson <orionworks@charter.net > wrote:
Vorts, during your copious amounts of free time:

There are numerous free Google Videos (both in MAC/Window format as well as
in IPOD format) ready for download. There's a fun category that deals with
alternative/free energy topics as well.

One of my favorites was a general survey on "free energy" devices, an hour
and fifty minute presentation including interviews and "FE" demonstrations
from all sorts of obscure and perhaps not-so-obscure inventors, including
demonstrations of the mysterious Hutchison effect. Some of the names you
will recognize, including a series of interviews with the late Eugene
Mallove. There were also plenty of demonstrations from other less well-known
inventors where, well, I wonder what has happened to them and their
contraptions. No doubt, they have been abducted. <grin>

Go to Google's new "video" link and key in:

"Free Energy The Race to Zero Point Energy."

I believe this particular production is about 10 years old.

I found it was easier viewing when I downloaded and installed Google's
unique video player. It would be nice if Google's video format were at least
compatible with most other video players. At present, it isn't. Sigh.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/OrionWorks




--
++++
Website: http://www.lackluster.org/
Webshop: http://www.lackluster.org/shop/
Announcements: http://www.yahoogroups.com/groups/lackluster  
Last.FM radio: http://last.fm/label/lackluster
Beatport Download: http://www.beatport.com/lackluster
Bleep Download: http://www.bleep.com/search.php?search=Lackluster
Video: http://www.dailymotion.com/search/lackluster/1
Kompaktkiste: http://www.kompaktkiste.de/lackluster.htm
Discogs: http://www.discogs.com/artist/Lackluster
Demo-Discography: http://www.scene.org/~esa/ ------=_Part_29060_28692340.1159685935699--