From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 00:27:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id AAA25572; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 00:19:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 00:19:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3340C4EA.4166 worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:18:54 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Biefield-Brown Effect References: <970331230402_416674195 emout17.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"x08Xh3.0.UF6.DKCGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hal Putoff wrote: > The best candidate in my opinion was Brown's > so-called Paris experiment. > Each charged electrode pair at the end of a rotating > arm was inside its own totally-enclosing sphere. > That way no ion-wind effect can reach the outside. > If the spheres are shielded in addition (my own > suggestion - not included in the original > experiment) that should add an additional > countermeasure against artifacts. I don't understand how such a presumably grounded shield can exist fairly close around the electrodes without essentially becoming one of the electrode elements itself, which would seem to tend to neutralize the effect. I guess that kind of setup would shut off the wind, though. Thanks for the idea. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 06:45:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id GAA28374; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 06:41:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 06:41:19 -0800 (PST) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:32:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970401093246_1984171324 emout10.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com cc: kennel nhelab.iae.or.jp, hheffner@corecom.net Subject: Re: CF in EUV (Optical Fibers) Resent-Message-ID: <"rtRXJ.0.Fx6.DwHGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On March 27, Elliot Kennel posted: "But if the EUV really carries so much energy (i.e., commensurate with the excess power claimed by several observers), then I would think it would be very easy to stick some optical fiber probes down there and everyone would be able to easily observe precisely what's going on." On March 28, Horace Heffner asked, "is there an EUV transmitting fiber available?" Good question. Upon doing a little checking, it turns out that glass and quartz are opaque in the extreme ultraviolet (EUV), and so are most other materials. (See Lerner & Trigg, eds., Encyclopedia of Physics, 2nd ed., p. 1340 col. 1.) Another reason why the EUV is a tough region of the spectrum in which to work. Have you or any other Vortexians heard of an optical fiber that transmits EUV? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 06:47:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id GAA28927; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 06:44:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 06:44:59 -0800 (PST) Date: 01 Apr 97 09:43:18 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Copyright violations Message-ID: <970401144318_72240.1256_EHB126-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"ykMLm3.0.s37.fzHGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Okay, I promise this will be the last message I post about this. Mitch writes: Answered you with specificity already, Jed, but will not do YOUR homework. . . . FYI, the answer was in the sentences you conveniently left out of your repost, Jed. = As an example, a significant fraction of everything in several . . . No, actually the "significant fraction" business *was* part of my repost. I did not leave it out. But this is damn nonsense. It is, in fact, a damn lie. There are no articles in any of our magazines copied from CFT. There never have been. There is nothing remotely like a copyright violation. Mitch adds: Did not say you, but the "early issues". Right? I am not sure what this means, but paging through some early issues I see several more articles that I wrote, about Japan and other subjects. These were reprinted without my knowledge and without permission from me or from the publishers. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 06:59:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id GAA29660; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 06:48:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 06:48:19 -0800 (PST) Date: 01 Apr 97 09:43:28 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: ACC in NYT Message-ID: <970401144328_72240.1256_EHB126-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"9EtC6.0.MF7.l0IGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex There is a big article about Arthur C. Clarke in today's New York Times., section B page 1, "What Is Paradise Without Praise," by John F. Burns. It is pretty good! It is mostly about his new book 3001. There is a brief mention of ZPE. The book itself has a large section of footnotes including references to Hal's papers. (I mean our own Hal P., not the computer.) On page B6 there is a review of a turgid book on Stanley Kubrick. The article is "Beyond Myths of an Enigmatic Auteur, More Myths," by Michiko Kakutani. The book is "Stanley Kubrick, A Biography" by Vincent LoBrutto. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 07:13:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id HAA29075; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 07:10:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 07:10:14 -0800 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.251.148 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970331212112_1054312699 emout18.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:10:04 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: Gas loaded CF Resent-Message-ID: <"ongu-2.0.D67.LLIGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reference to Mike Carrell's comments; > He seems to confuse >the Piantelli cell which operates in a gas phase with the BLP cell, and then >proceeds to develop an explanation for excess heat in how he thinks the >Piantelli cell operates. There is no difference between the Piantelli cell and the BLP cell that is relevant to my theory. They both have an enclosed chamber with hydrogen at a low pressure and they both have a heated metal surface inside the chamber >The BLP gas phase cell operates at low pressure with hydrogen atoms and a >catalyst vapor, which I believe is potassium iodide. Ionized potassium has >the energy well necessary to trigger a stage of the hydrogen collapse. >Potassium carbonate is the electrolyte (and possibly the catalyst) in the >aqueous Mills cells. So? Gas phase cell, low pressure, hydrogen atoms - exactly the same idea as in the Piantelli cell. >And, as Mills insists, the BLP process energy yield does not come from any >nuclear process, but a new form of chemistry. It is conceivable that the >shrunken hydrogen atoms may also play a part in nuclear transformations in >the solid state, but it seems very unlikely that this would occur in the gas >phase. > >I will be happy to be corrected by anyone who has actually studied the Mills >material available in the Web site or his book. I studied the material and found it to be total nonsense. Mills used the Klein-Gordon equation, which is for bosons, to describe the electron, which is a fermion. To make things worse he used the zero mass and zero potential form of the Klein-Gordon equation. Now the electron has a finite mass and if the potential is zero then the electron would be free and unbound. So we have an electron which is assumed to be a boson with zero mass and unbound with no external potential present. Mills then proceeds to derive his sub ground state solution based on these assumptions. The resulting hydrino state then does not require the presence of the attracting proton. Free electrons could then assume this state orbiting around in free space with no proton in the center to attract them. I guess Mills' assumption is that a proton could be placed in the interior of this free electron hydrino state to form a true hydrino without disrupting the original free state. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 08:24:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id IAA10848; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 08:12:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 08:12:14 -0800 Message-ID: <334133F6.2908 interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 11:12:38 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: monteverde worldnet.att.net CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Biefield-Brown Effect References: <970331230402_416674195 emout17.mail.aol.com> <3340C4EA.4166@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"N8orq2.0.Mf2.SFJGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Hal Putoff wrote: > > > The best candidate in my opinion was Brown's > > so-called Paris experiment. > > Each charged electrode pair at the end of a rotating > > arm was inside its own totally-enclosing sphere. > I don't understand how such a presumably grounded shield can exist > fairly close around the electrodes without essentially becoming one of > the electrode elements itself, which would seem to tend to neutralize > the effect. I guess that kind of setup would shut off the wind, though. Rick, why not a simple variation on Hal's point: | | | <--- suspension member, perhaps | a coax conductor with high | voltage supplied thru the | center conductor. | ________________________|__________________________ | | | | | | | | | B-B Apparatus setting | | on styrofoam base. | | XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX | | XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX | | .................... | | ...styrofoam........ | | .................... | | .................... | |__________________________________________________| ^ |__ Large cardboard box - covered with aluminum foil - grounded thru the sheath of the coax suspension cable. Use the large box + coax as a torsion pendulum - calibrated against a floor reference point. Make the box as big as reasonable to avoid reaction between the grounded shield and the B-B apparatus. Take care with room convection currents, but these should not depend on apparatus operation. You could also form a "linear" pendulum for a linear-thrust device and just measure the deflection of the box from the null position - long cable makes it more sensitive... If the box moves, there is a force at work other than an electrostatic one! Keep the B-B charged plates + dielectric close compared to distance to box walls. Just an idea. What do you think? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 09:15:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id IAA23774; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 08:59:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 08:59:32 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970401044351.0069cbd0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:43:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Ideas for directions Resent-Message-ID: <"xF7ll3.0.Op5.oxJGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Suggest that we all focus on the real issues in this field. 1. Is over-unity or fusion (not over unity, but usually included) attainable? 2. Why is it attainable in the solid state, or in a vortex, or whereever? Can serious data be made available of the results with demonstrations of adequate baseline, calibration, and noise level? 3. How can these reactions be monitored, and false negatives eliminated? 4. How can we work together to share info, so as to increase the efficiency of these systems, and the rate at which these devices, or their products, can be made available generally? Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 09:20:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id JAA24774; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:03:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:03:35 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970401044341.00699fa8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:43:41 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Copyright violations Resent-Message-ID: <"cFBnS.0.-26.b_JGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:43 AM 4/1/97 EST, Jed wrote: >I am not sure what this means, but paging through some early issues I see >several more articles that I wrote, about Japan and other subjects. It means that I was right. There were copied articles in "COLD FUSION" the mag which were in COLD FUSION TIMES the year previous. Glad you finally agree to that issue of copying the COLD FUSION TIMES which extends beyond what you cite. ====================================================== >These were >reprinted without my knowledge and without permission from me or from the >publishers. Utter balderdash and some of your self-serving poppycock, Jed. You are correct in naming your Japan article, however, you are laughably incorrect about accusing COLD FUSION TIMES of publishing your stuff without permission or your knowledge. Jed's articles, some coauthored with Gene, and one even coauthored with me were not only laboriously laid out, edited, and then printed with the permission of both himself and Gene Mallove, but some were edited by email between us which if Jed would like, could become public record to demonstrate with crystal clarity the abject silliness of his most recent absurd and frothy allegation. Furthermore, contradicting Jed, Gene Mallove remembers these email exchanges, and suggests that Jed carefully reconsider these facts. While Jed is reexploring his unfortunately sieve-like memory in this area, suggest that we all focus on the real issues in this field. 1. Is o/u or fusion (not over unity, but usually included) attainable? 2. Why is it attainable in the solid state? or the liquid state or whatever? 3. How can these reactions be better monitored and false info excluded? 4. How can we work together to share info, so as to increase the efficiency of these systems, and the rate at which these devices, or their products, can be made available generally? Hope that helps, and ends this tirade of Jed. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 09:24:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id JAA23280; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:11:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:11:44 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:10:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970401121052_-1336336747 emout03.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ACC in NYT Resent-Message-ID: <"ymvyb.0.gh5.E7KGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Can you send me a copy of the ACC in NYT article? Thanks. Hal (not the computer!) Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 09:43:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id JAA28916; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:25:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:25:26 -0800 Message-ID: <334144E2.C1B worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 07:24:52 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Biefield-Brown Effect References: <970331230402_416674195 emout17.mail.aol.com> <3340C4EA.4166@worldnet.att.net> <334133F6.2908@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GjVib2.0.k37.5KKGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank - > Just an idea. What do you think? I think that's good. I would think there's a good way to do this that satisfies the usual objections and doesent involve a large chamber at high vacuum. It kind of bothers me that the only people who report positive results these days haven't taken that kind of precaution against spurious effects. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 09:44:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id JAA27921; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:20:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:20:24 -0800 Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:46:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Apologies for ranting and offence Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"3_POD3.0.6q6.NFKGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: My Lords, Ladies and Gentlemen, boys and girls, A public apology is due for being more than a little participatary in the ranting. It just that the inland revenue want to sink their nasty nashers into me and I've been a little pissed off. Politics like religion easily offends. I'm for Universities and Blue skies research, arts funding, I just believe that the private sector could offer more (willingly) if they weren't taxed so much. This list is a general forum where we discuss RESULTS and THEORIES not bulls**t. New list? Well we're self policing right? We continually reinvent ourselves. We can be our own worst enemies... I believe in bandwidth, eyesight and interest preservation. Humbly, Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 09:52:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id JAA27388; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:46:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:46:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:45:09 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199704011745.LAA13347 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Ideas for directions Resent-Message-ID: <"lGie23.0.sh6.cdKGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 23:43 3/31/97 -0500, Mitchell wrote: > Suggest that we all focus on the real issues in this field. and, with judicious snipping: > Is over-unity attainable? > Can serious data be made available? > How...false negatives eliminated? > How can we work together? My vote is for inter-lab replication of "large positive" experiments. If we could just get 5 or 10 labs getting the same large positive results on substantially the same experiment, CF would take off like high-temp SC's did. We presently have several replication efforts underway including the CETI Rifex kit and the Evan Ragland triode cell (see article on it in IE #10). Stay tuned for our results. Meanwhile, start building your own calorimeter. Free technical advice is available from us and several others on Vortex. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 10:01:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id JAA30274; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:34:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:34:37 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:36:29 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CF in EUV (Optical Fibers) Resent-Message-ID: <"F62Lh1.0.vO7.jSKGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Stolper asked... >Good question. Upon doing a little checking, it turns out that glass and >quartz are opaque in the extreme ultraviolet (EUV), and so are most other >materials. (See Lerner & Trigg, eds., Encyclopedia of Physics, 2nd ed., p. >1340 col. 1.) Another reason why the EUV is a tough region of the spectrum >in which to work. > >Have you or any other Vortexians heard of an optical fiber that transmits >EUV? As far as I know, no. EUV photons photoionize and photoexcite just about everything, and this rapidly depletes their number. Thus, materials are opaque in the EUV. Experiments are done in the EUV, of course. Spectroscopists and atomic physicists love to test fine details of quantum mechanics in all possible regimes. EUV (and soft x-ray) experiments must be done in vacuum (hence the synonym, "vacuum UV" or VUV). What might be possible is to use a fiber that has been treated so that it fluoresces or scintillates, yielding a small amount of visible light in the fiber which can then be detected. I think I have heard that some commercial products are available that operate on this principle. But: EUV photons don't go far in H2O, either. The fiber will have to be within a micron, maybe less, of the source. If the source is on the surface of an electrode, you might see something. If it is even slightly inside a metal electrode, EUV will all be absorbed inside it, degrading to heat. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 10:26:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id KAA01390; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:18:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:18:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3341518C.1813 interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 13:18:52 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CF in EUV (Optical Fibers) References: <970401093246_1984171324 emout10.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fgQ9L2.0.eL.s5LGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tstolper aol.com wrote: > > Have you or any other Vortexians heard of an optical fiber that transmits > EUV? > Don't know much about this, Tom, but how about a some type of HOLLOW fiber, dielectric or not? Perhaps a tiny, hollow fiber aluminized on the inside with an electrolyte-excluding inert gas fill? Would need good if not total reflection on inner surface - sort of like a microwave waveguide. Cheap thoughts from Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 10:36:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id KAA01999; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:23:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:23:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3341529A.5201 interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 13:23:22 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ideas for directions References: <2.2.32.19970401044351.0069cbd0 world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WUTaU1.0.9V.HALGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: (snips) > > Suggest that we all focus on the real issues in this field. > > 4. How can we work together to share info, so as to increase the > efficiency of these systems, and the rate at which these devices, or > their products, can be made available generally? > Now you're talking, Mitchell! Hear, Hear! Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 11:01:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id KAA07754; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:34:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:34:36 -0800 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: CF in EUV (Optical Fibers) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:24:43 +0000 Message-ID: <19970401182441.AAA8364 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"XNLMC1.0.0v1.xKLGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:36 PM 4/1/97 +0000 Michael Schaffer wrote: >Tom Stolper asked... > >>Good question. Upon doing a little checking, it turns out that glass and >>quartz are opaque in the extreme ultraviolet (EUV), and so are most other >>materials. (See Lerner & Trigg, eds., Encyclopedia of Physics, 2nd ed., p. >>1340 col. 1.) Another reason why the EUV is a tough region of the spectrum >>in which to work. >> >>Have you or any other Vortexians heard of an optical fiber that transmits >>EUV? > >As far as I know, no. EUV photons photoionize and photoexcite just about >everything, and this rapidly depletes their number. Thus, materials are >opaque in the EUV. Experiments are done in the EUV, of course. >Spectroscopists and atomic physicists love to test fine details of quantum >mechanics in all possible regimes. EUV (and soft x-ray) experiments must >be done in vacuum (hence the synonym, "vacuum UV" or VUV). > >What might be possible is to use a fiber that has been treated so that it >fluoresces or scintillates, yielding a small amount of visible light in the >fiber which can then be detected. I think I have heard that some >commercial products are available that operate on this principle. But: EUV >photons don't go far in H2O, either. The fiber will have to be within a >micron, maybe less, of the source. If the source is on the surface of an >electrode, you might see something. If it is even slightly inside a metal >electrode, EUV will all be absorbed inside it, degrading to heat. Seems that there was fluorescence with clear Teflon and/or Nylon with UV, reported in a patent that I saw a few years ago. I suppose one could find the patent with the right keywords at (www.uspto.gov). > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 11:32:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id LAA11242; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:00:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:00:56 -0800 Message-Id: <199704011900.VAA20350 sdn5.csc.dk> From: i3683 csc.dk (Anders Heerfordt) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 21:52:00 CET DST Subject: Ang.: Re: Ideas for directions MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <"Yyqcc2.0.al2.djLGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 23:43 3/31/97 -0500, Mitchell wrote: > Suggest that we all focus on the real issues in this field. > Is over-unity attainable? >From my viewpoint there is sufficient=20 evidence that over-unity and cold=20 fusion are both possible. I have=20 investigated a number of over-unity=20 machines. Most dont work, but some=20 do. Many cannot be decided. The Testatika machine for example=20 seems to work OK. No input, much=20 output. The Finsrud machine for example seems=20 to work somewhat. No input, no=20 output. 0/0=3D? not exactly=20 over-unity...=20 Cold fusion has been demonstrated by=20 many, Mills, Notoya, P&F, McKubre,=20 and so on. One can hardly doubt. > Can serious data be made available?=20 On cold fusion, serious data has been=20 made available.=20 The Russians have some interesting=20 things, especially in ether=20 technology. Manipulating 'empty'=20 space. It seems very serious, but not=20 exactly over-unity.=20 > How...false negatives eliminated? > How can we work together? Design affordable cold fusion experiments? >My vote is for inter-lab replication of "large positive" experiments. = If we=20 >could just get 5 or 10 labs getting the same large positive results on = >substantially the same experiment, CF would take off like high-temp SC'= s=20 >did. Nickel + potassium carbonate is affordable. But it doesnt always give=20 excess heat... >We presently have several replication efforts underway including the=20 >CETI Rifex kit and the Evan Ragland triode cell (see article on it in I= E=20 >#10). >Stay tuned for our results. Meanwhile, start building your own calorim= eter.=20 >Free technical advice is available from us and several others on Vortex.= I have many problems with my calorimeter.... Especially how to keep it meticulously clean, while keeping the=20 thing affordable and accurate. If I had a million dollars, I would=20 fly in ms. Notoya and have her teach me how to make cold fusion... Just my twopence worth of opinions... Regards, Anders From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 12:26:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id LAA18012; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:42:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:42:22 -0800 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: CF in EUV (Optical Fibers) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:22:46 +0000 Message-ID: <19970401192244.AAA27780 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"8ocx_.0.MP4.TKMGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:36 PM 4/1/97 +0000, Michael Schaffer wrote: > >As far as I know, no. EUV photons photoionize and photoexcite just about >everything, and this rapidly depletes their number. Thus, materials are >opaque in the EUV. Experiments are done in the EUV, of course. >Spectroscopists and atomic physicists love to test fine details of quantum >mechanics in all possible regimes. EUV (and soft x-ray) experiments must >be done in vacuum (hence the synonym, "vacuum UV" or VUV). > >What might be possible is to use a fiber that has been treated so that it >fluoresces or scintillates, yielding a small amount of visible light in the >fiber which can then be detected. I think I have heard that some >commercial products are available that operate on this principle. But: EUV >photons don't go far in H2O, either. The fiber will have to be within a >micron, maybe less, of the source. If the source is on the surface of an >electrode, you might see something. If it is even slightly inside a metal >electrode, EUV will all be absorbed inside it, degrading to heat. Did a quick uspto search (keywords, ultraviolet AND fluorescence) Seems that Thorium Tetrabromide fluoresces at 4,000 angstroms with incident radiation from uv out to the hard x-ray range might make a "light pipe" from this. U.S Patent #4,039,839 Aug 1977. FJS > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 12:27:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id LAA21125; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:58:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:58:14 -0800 Date: 01 Apr 97 14:55:33 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Copyright violations Message-ID: <970401195532_100433.1541_BHG109-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"3YAkI3.0._95.LZMGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, everyone, Well, April the first is indeed living up to its reputation, with Jed accused of stealing his own articles and not keeping up with his own work - and Evan Ragland wondering how his triode-cell article got into Cold Fusion Times. Ah well. Personally, I put it all down to that well-known anthropological phenomenon, "displacement activity." This occurs when the job in hand is so horrific that a person will do *anything* else instead, and is most evident (in the US) when the time for filing tax returns comes around again. On the matter of April Fools' day, it does appear that the custom of spoofing is not so prevalent across the Pond. Today one supermarket chain is selling spring water with the instruction, "dilute to taste." Our more serious broadsheets are scanned in a (frequently fruitless) effort to decide whether a report is spoof or real. Perhaps the most remarkable example (still spoken of in hushed tones) was the report some thirty-five years ago by the ultra-serious (or ultra-boring) BBC current affairs "Panorama," where their literally and metaphorically heaviest presenter outlined the terrible economic plight of the spaghetti-tree farmers of southern Italy. Are tax returns copyright? Will Mitch help Jed with his? Or the other way around? Will Jed declare the royalties he has paid himself? Watch this space for the next gripping installment in our saga. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 12:33:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id MAA18092; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:21:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:21:35 -0800 (PST) Date: 01 Apr 97 15:19:52 EST From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo" Subject: John Hutchison (sp?) Message-ID: <970401201952_76016.2701_JHC35-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"td5w-.0.VQ4.DvMGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts!* Has anyone here heard of John Hutchison (sp?), a Canadian ou/antigrav researcher? I recently saw a brief video of John in his (impressive) lab. I would be interested in learning more about his work. Terry * In case Chris never told you, 'Neil Armstrong' spelled backwards is 'Gnorts, Mr. Alien' (less punctuation). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 12:47:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id MAA19703; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:35:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:35:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:39:02 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Ideas for directions Resent-Message-ID: <"mLGHy1.0.np4.76NGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:45 AM 4/1/97, Scott Little wrote: [snip] > >My vote is for inter-lab replication of "large positive" experiments. If we >could just get 5 or 10 labs getting the same large positive results on >substantially the same experiment, CF would take off like high-temp SC's did. > >We presently have several replication efforts underway including the CETI >Rifex kit and the Evan Ragland triode cell (see article on it in IE #10). > >Stay tuned for our results. Meanwhile, start building your own calorimeter. >Free technical advice is available from us and several others on Vortex. > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little This is a great idea for vortex. It seems like a vortex standard for wattage ranges, internal dimensions, power and other standards would be very useful. A vortex standard calorimeter. If a number of us had calorimeters built to accomodate some standard, even though built in different ways, it would then make possible design of devices to fit within the standard and make possible very quick calorimetry replications. It seems really especially advantageous to get numbers outside the vagaries of internal calorimetry methods like the flowing calorimetry built into the PPC. I guess the big problem is that the devices to test seem to come in all sizes and powers. Maybe two size standards? Any specific thoughts about size and power ranges, or other standards that might be useful to facilitate quick vortex joint testing of new devices? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 13:13:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id NAA22922; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:01:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:01:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: From: "Scudder,Henry J" To: Vortex-L Subject: Beer Bottle Cold Fusion? Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:54:00 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xSVf41.0.1c5.XUNGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexans Check out www.teleport.com/~etime THE BECKER LIGHTNING BOLT COLD FUSION GENERATOR By Hans Becker I was surfing electric vehicles when I came across this. Hank Scudder From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 13:20:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id NAA24273; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:14:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:14:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:17:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Vorts and Gnorts Pioneer X Resent-Message-ID: <"w1pmA3.0.Ax5.TgNGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:19 PM 4/1/97, Terry Blanton wrote: >Gnorts Vorts!* Brilliant! Te be a Vortexian, Vortexan, Vorticean, etc. all with precident and wonderful, but to be a Vort must be the ultimate! It seems appropriate to note for the vortex log (if that is still working even though still recording into Febrary file?) that today it was reported the Pioneer X program was shut down after tracking the Pioneer X space probe for over 6 gigamiles. Gnorts Vorts, Horace From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 13:30:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id NAA25312; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:19:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:19:43 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970401210432.0069f8b0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 16:04:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Copyright violations Resent-Message-ID: <"yiA402.0.PB6.jlNGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:55 PM 4/1/97 EST, Chris Tinsley writes at least two mistakes in a single sentence, while coming to the aid of his co-editor at Infinite Energy magazine: =chris >Gnorts, everyone, =chris > =chris >Well, April the first is indeed living up to =chris its reputation, with Jed =chris >accused of stealing his own articles and not =chris keeping up with his own =chris >work - and Evan Ragland wondering how his =chris triode-cell article got into =chris >Cold Fusion Times. Chris, First, this began with Jed accusing me, so perhaps you might restudy this closer to improve your accuracy. His post that began this was Message-Id: <970331185856_72240.1256_EHB76-1 CompuServe.COM>. Second, tell Evan that methinks that it may have been Mr. Rothwell who first published it on the Internet for him. There was a second poster as well on vortex-l, I believe. Both should be thanked for increasing knowledge of the science in the field. You might check the records at vortex and spf for yourself. If it helps, I think this was Jed's commentary, after the Ragland abstract. =jed "Here is one of the abstracts from ICCF6 which people might have overlooked. =jed Evan Ragland is an unassuming 70-year-old retired engineer who does not make a =jed big deal about himself, but he has done solid work in the past and I take his =jed claims seriously. I wish I had had a chance to go to Mississippi and observe =jed the cell he had running there all summer. I talked to him about it, but I did =jed not get a chance to go. He reports input was between 1 and 2 watts, the flow =jed rate was 25 ml/min, and the Delta T was generally 4 to 5 deg C, indicating =jed total output of 8 or 9 watts. He said he would have 10 fully made up cells =jed fabricated for me in the near future by a firm in Texas, which will cost =jed between $500 and $800 each. He was not able to mount a physical experiment but =jed he did display the triode anode-cathode. He hung it on the wall next to =jed poster. Typical of him. =jed =jed I believe the triode configuration has much in common with the Takahashi =jed method and with proton conductors, which were in the spotlight at ICCF6, as I =jed shall report later. =jed =jed - Jed =================================================================== Chris continues: =chris >Ah well. Personally, I put it all down to that well-known =chris >anthropological phenomenon, "displacement activity." No, put it down to yourself, a co-editor of Infinite Energy, co-attacking an individual who merely pointed out some facts, with that co-editor also ignoring the facts as shown above. Give it a rest, Chris, but given that your sabers are out, here is a comment. Chris, why did you interrupt Martin Fleischmann in your interview of him? He is one of the most interesting people whom I have ever met, and his comments all too brief and tardive, are appreciated by all. Thanks for your interview of him. Just wish it were much longer and deeper. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 13:53:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id NAA04355; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:16:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:16:15 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970401210454.0071b10c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 16:04:54 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Ideas for directions - Increased Cooperation Resent-Message-ID: <"YgQIj2.0.z31.UiNGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:52 PM 4/1/97 DST, Anders wrote: >> How can we work together? > >Design affordable cold fusion experiments? Good idea. We may have a few low level JET Energy Technology electrodes available now, if we think a serious calorimetric effort is possible. If a group would like to buy a moderate level elecrode for nickel light water experiments, give me a private email note, and we can discuss it further. We are developing an entire unit, with computer bay, specialized sensors, and software. ======================================= Scott wrote: >>My vote is for inter-lab replication of >>"large positive" experiments. If we >>could just get 5 or 10 labs getting the same >> large positive results on >>substantially the same experiment, CF would take off like high-temp SC's >>did. We would like to see other labs dedicate themselves to presenting their data clearly enough to show noise levels and of long enough time baselines to rule out possible stored energy. Examples of such can be seen at JET Energy Technology web site. http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html IMHO, if we carefully show power and energy levels, and force these devices to actually drive real impedances (as opposed to shifting charge between batteries), there will be a steady drift in the standards involving measurement of these devices. With that not only will they be made more efficient more quickly, but the believability of this field will increase as well. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 13:55:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id NAA09994; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:39:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:39:15 -0800 Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:39:21 -0800 Message-Id: <9704012139.AA18092 mail1.halcyon.com> X-Sender: fepps mail.halcyon.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: fepps mail1.halcyon.com (Fred Epps) Subject: John Hutchinson Resent-Message-ID: <"gG5aU3.0.1S2.12OGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Terry, I recently met with John Hutchinson. His laboratory was famous for generating the strange effects seen on his video. Basically, it was a collection of large Van De Graff generators, teslas coils, plasma pulse generators and every other piece of geewhiz equipment he could cobble together on a limited income. (He has since had to sell off his lab to survive-- a damned shame). The effects would occur at some distance from the apparatus, which I think is interesting. I also think they show signs of intelligence (spirits?) There was no way of really telling what was going on because there were so many uncontrolled variables (my opinion). I suspect that he created a hole into another dimension that allowed forces or beings to come in. Totally unscientific, but if you've seen the video you know what I mean. More recently, he developed a free-energy device that would run a small fan motor with no input power. Details are undisclosed, but apparently it involved shock-pulsing a Barium Titanate element. When I saw him, he was looking for ideas on how to market a "perpetual battery" (my name), a small cannister filled with a cement-like substance that continuously produces a small voltage. He makes the stuff in his sink. It definitely does work, output voltage is up to a couple of volts, problem was (as I saw it), the current was very small, less than a nA or so. John, if you're out there, correct me if I'm wrong... Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 13:55:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id NAA29929; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:44:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:44:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:48:36 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Beer Bottle Cold Fusion? Resent-Message-ID: <"8b9rx1.0.ZJ7.H7OGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Vortexans > Check out > www.teleport.com/~etime >THE BECKER LIGHTNING BOLT COLD FUSION >GENERATOR >By Hans Becker > >I was surfing electric vehicles when I came across this. > >Hank Scudder I got a 404 not found. Gone? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 14:41:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id OAA19479; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 14:25:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 14:25:00 -0800 Message-ID: <33418B5B.6678 interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 17:25:31 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Beer Bottle Cold Fusion? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Hmskr3.0.Hm4.wiOGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > >Vortexans > > Check out > > www.teleport.com/~etime > >THE BECKER LIGHTNING BOLT COLD FUSION > >GENERATOR > >By Hans Becker > > > >Hank Scudder > > I got a 404 not found. Gone? > > Horace Heffner Me too Hank! Hey, is this April fool??? Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 16:37:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id QAA24061; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:32:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:32:48 -0800 (PST) From: RMCarrell aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:31:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970401192944_-1938079341 emout20.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gas loaded CF Resent-Message-ID: <"QE9UZ1.0.rt5.jaQGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK, apologies to Larry Wharton, who did read to BLP posts and has found the theory flawed. Fair enough. But he seemd to say in his analysis that the activity is at the surface of a target, as I believe it is in the Piantelli case, whereas I believe that in the BLP case it is within the gases and the chamber functions to contain the reaction and does not participate in it. What remains to be seen is verification of the deep UV radiation and existence of dihyrinos predicted by Mills theory. Oh yes, and the very large energy outputs reported. As always, theory yields to experiment. If the above are verified, then it will be the turn of theorists to account for it. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 17:28:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id RAA00211; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:17:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:17:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Ideas for directions To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:16:43 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199704011745.LAA13347 natasha.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at Apr 1, 97 11:45:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"j_0ds2.0.B3.FERGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > My vote is for inter-lab replication of "large positive" experiments.... > Stay tuned for our results. Meanwhile, start building your own calorimeter. Don't want to read between the lines here, but are you hinting at something???? -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 17:41:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id RAA03342; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:08:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:08:33 -0800 Date: 01 Apr 97 20:06:30 EST From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: John Hutchinson Message-ID: <970402010629_76016.2701_JHC72-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"rmpx71.0.8q.G6RGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks to Fred Epps, >> I suspect that he (John Hutchinson) created a hole into another dimension that allowed forces or beings to come in. Totally unscientific, but if you've seen the video you know what I mean.<< It was some of the most bizarre things I have viewed. He was creating such huge EM "fields" that he caused a spoon to bend and the end to fly off (eat your heart out Geller). He had some really great toys! It's a pity he has to liquidate his lab. I'd love one of his batteries. I'd prefer one of his power sources for the fan. I'd give it to Scott for his birthday. Has he been on the list? Is he on the Web? I'm sure other Vorts would like to see the vid. Terry, who's mind is too open to retain much (fifo) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 17:47:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id QAA01227; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:57:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:57:27 -0800 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Urine burner with no politics attached Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:56:39 +0000 Message-ID: <19970402005638.AAA6491 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"CWaVJ1.0.2J.sxQGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The "urine burning" device, invented by Paul Pantone, can pretreat fuel with large portions of junk that would never ordinarily run in the engines (as far as I know). It is very similar to a patented idea belong to Jaguar, but with one very significant difference. I tried running 30% Pepsi/70% gasoline in it and found that it seemed to run along all right, figuring (not from personal experience) that that much sugar would surely carmelize and cause the pistons to seize. The Jaguar device ducts fuel vapor though a pipe enclosed in the exhaust manifold. The heat further atomizes the vapor, assuring more complete combustion. I have no idea if Jaguar built any production engines like this or not. What it looked like to me is that the Carnot efficiency would improve if some of the normally wasted heat was being used to preheat the fuel, however, the hotter fuel vapor is of lower density than normal carbueration would provide, so there would be less power, unless supercharging was used, which would eat into the efficiency. The addition that Pantone made was to put a solid steel rod in the middle of the duct carrying the fuel vapor inside the exhaust manifold. By restricting the cross-sectional area by 2/3 without reducing the duct's internal surface, the pressure in the duct surrounding the rod would be much less than without the rod, the temperature of the fuel vapor would be a lot lower than usual, meaning a greater temperature gradient between the outside of the fuel duct (in the exhaust stream) and the inside, for greater heat transfer and noticeably cooler exhaust than a normally carbuerated engine. What piqued my curiosity is that the pyrolytic chamber that does the "magic" is magnetized and there are stories about people having credit cards erased in proximity to the engine. I have not been personally able to verify such an event. I have not been able to satisfactorily determine the origin of the magnetization. There is a magnetized rod in the middle of this chamber that I tried taking out and reversing before running the engine for a while. With my crude method (a compass), it seemed that the magnetization of the rod was weakened and randomized from its initial state. Turning the rod back around to its original state and running it some more seems to be returning it to its initial magnetized state. However, I am stalled in my efforts due to a blown head gasket. There have been many hard-to-believe claims made about this device that I do not stand behind. There have been no specific OU claims I've heard, just very high efficiency and extremely clean exhaust (which my nose and some fractional analysis I had run confirms). However, I am appealing to anyone with a greater knowledge of physics than I have to explain how this thing might generate a magnetic field (assuming the field is not originating from some electrical induction during manufacture), while I am getting my head together (with or without the pickle slicer). Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 18:12:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id RAA05953; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:55:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:55:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:54:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199704020154.TAA00587 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Ideas for directions Resent-Message-ID: <"6c4P12.0.uS1.9oRGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:16 PM 4/1/97 -0600, John Logajan wrote: >Scott Little wrote: >> My vote is for inter-lab replication of "large positive" experiments.... >> Stay tuned for our results. Meanwhile, start building your own calorimeter. > >Don't want to read between the lines here, but are you hinting at >something???? Nope...just suggesting something for interested parties to do while waiting for the definitive, works-nearly-every-time CF experiment to appear. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 19:53:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id TAA30277; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:27:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:27:06 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970402032653.00711470 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 22:26:53 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Ideas for directions - Increased Reproducibility Resent-Message-ID: <"e1FFh.0.-O7.98TGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:52 PM 4/1/97 DST, Anders wrote: >Nickel + potassium carbonate is affordable. But it doesnt always give >excess heat... There may be several reasons. In electrolytic systems, there appears to be a peak power gain obtainable with any sample of material and it is impacted significantly by geometric and material factors. Furthermore there exists an operating notch in the input power drive curve that is often unrecognized but which, if ignored, will also decrease the power gain obtainable ("Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model of Isotope Loading into a Material", Fusion Technology, vol 31, 63-74, January (1997).). Finally, the role of competing factors is another important issue ("Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300 (1992)) as is the ratio of the ordering fields (applied electric field intensity to the thermal tendency to disorder (e.g. "ISOTOPIC FUEL LOADING COUPLED TO REACTIONS AT AN ELECTRODE", Fusion Technology, 26, 4T, 74-77 (December 1994)), involved in the successful running of these systems. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 20:04:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id TAA02146; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:51:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:51:31 -0800 Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:50:48 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199704020350.VAA12077 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: photo of Hal Resent-Message-ID: <"7QMsn.0.JX._UTGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yesterday I snuck (Texas variant of sneaked) into Hal's office and photographed him in his native environment. Look in the Photo Gallery on the EarthTech web page: http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 21:18:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id UAA29735; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:47:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:47:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970402044731.006683b0 sparc1> X-Sender: kennel sparc1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 13:47:31 +0900 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Elliot Kennel Subject: Re: CF in EUV (Optical Fibers) Resent-Message-ID: <"esUf51.0.WG7.vJUGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Schaffer, others wrote: >> >>Have you heard of an optical fiber that transmits EUV?<< << >>As far as I know, no. EUV photons photoionize and photoexcite just about everything, and this rapidly depletes their number. Thus, materials are opaque in the EUV. ...EUV (and soft x-ray) experiments must be done in vacuum (hence the synonym, "vacuum UV" or VUV). What might be possible is to use a fiber that has been treated so that it fluoresces or scintillates, yielding a small amount of visible light in the fiber which can then be detected.<< Hi Mike, Thank you for your post, which corrects some of my misconceptions concerning the realms in which a nuclear/chemical process might be hiding. So it seems that EUV might be one area of the spectrum which might (at least in principle) yield a signature, and which (perhaps) measurements may not have been made...interesting. Perhaps we need to concoct an experiment in this area. At the moment I'm running a rapid deuterium loading experiment with palladium wire and a hot tungsten filament deuterium source. I can also operate in glow discharge mode. In any case there need not be an intervening layer of glass or liquid between the palladium and the detector. So perhaps I could make some EUV measurements if I knew what kind of sensors to hang on it. At present I have a CdTe x-ray detector dedicated to the experiment looking at 1 keV to 150 keV; plus there are other detectors which could be used, but no capability to measure in the optical band. Unfortunately I know nothing about making EUV measurements, so any suggestions would be appreciated. Yours truly, Elliot Kennel Sapporo Japan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 22:09:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id WAA10637; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:05:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:05:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:08:46 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Urine burner with no politics attached Resent-Message-ID: <"_DTfB.0.5c2.fSVGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:56 PM 4/1/97, Ed Wall wrote: [snip] > >There have been many hard-to-believe claims made about this device that I do >not stand behind. There have been no specific OU claims I've heard, just >very high efficiency and extremely clean exhaust (which my nose and some >fractional analysis I had run confirms). However, I am appealing to anyone >with a greater knowledge of physics than I have to explain how this thing >might generate a magnetic field (assuming the field is not originating from >some electrical induction during manufacture), while I am getting my head >together (with or without the pickle slicer). > >Ed Wall Here are some wild speculations. A fellow who used to work for Boeing invented a "carburator" which simply gassified fuel using waste engine heat and at start up, a heating element. The engines he converted to his gassifier/evaporator got much improved gas milage. He used to demonstrate it by pouring catsup and other gross things into the vaporization chamber. Water in the gas was also slowly vaporized and the resulting steam kept the engine clean and also supposedly helped reduce emissions. Maybe Pantone is using a version of this. The magnetic field may be coming from a very large number of permanent magnets on the *air intake* side. Large powerful magnets arranged in a V shape, with the air intake at the apex of the V should provide enriched oxygen to the motor due to the paramagnatism of O2. I have considered a similar scheme for improving boiler efficiency. It is possible to put numerous oxygen concentrators in a tree topology with feedback to get more higly enrgiched oxygen to feed the engine. The oxygen would make for a much more percussive burn (knocking) but the steam (extra water) should even out the power stroke. Such an engine would probably need a very goood specialized timing mechanism/computer control. Pretty wild guess, huh? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 22:33:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id WAA13835; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:30:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:30:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:33:37 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Carbon released from tundra Resent-Message-ID: <"_kJBZ.0.5O3.gpVGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts, Our job now seems more important and urgent than ever. The artic tundra, which holds more carbon than the earths atmosphere, has started releasing it back into the atmosphere. In a Dec. 15, 1997 news release, George W. Kling, University of Michigan assistant professor, one of the scientists working on the Gas Flux Study, part of the National Science Foundation's Arctic System Science (ARCSS) Program of biology stated: "Our latest data show that the arctic is no longer a strong sink for carbon. In some years, the tundra is adding as much or more carbon to the atmosphere than it removes, although the total amount of carbon released to the atmosphere is still quite small. The concern is what will happen in the future as global warming increases and melting permafrost exposes more of this buried carbon to be respired and released into the atmosphere." "We have known for some time that arctic lakes and streams are supersaturated with carbon dioxide and methane, and that this excess gas diffuses into the atmosphere. What we didn't know is just how much carbon is entering the atmosphere through contact with surface waters." "Arctic plants are still taking in carbon dioxide from the atmosphere during photosynthesis, but instead of much of that carbon remaining locked up in soil, more of it is being respired back to the atmosphere." "As average global temperatures continue to increase, we expect to see the most dramatic changes occurring in the arctic." Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 23:18:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id XAA07478; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:04:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:04:05 -0800 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:03:31 PST8PDT Subject: Re: Carbon released from tundra Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <82B9B719A hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"3QELJ3.0.mq1.aJWGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is kind of a naive question I guess, but why is carbon dioxide so much better at trapping the sun's heat that plain ol' nitrogen or oxygen? JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 1 23:40:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id XAA10703; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:25:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:25:48 -0800 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Carbon released from tundra Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:25:11 +0000 Message-ID: <19970402072508.AAA28984 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"UNbfQ.0.6d2.wdWGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:03 PM 4/1/97 PST8PDT, Jay Olson wrote: >This is kind of a naive question I guess, but why is carbon dioxide >so much better at trapping the sun's heat that plain ol' nitrogen or >oxygen? > >JAY OLSON > Same as a windowpane Jay. CO2 is transparent to the shorter wavelength photons from the Sun. But it is opague to the longer wavelength heat radiation that the shorter wavelengths are converted to when they are absorbed inside the "windowpane". Thus the phrase "greenhouse effect". The absorption spectra for "plain ol' nitrogen or oxygen" doesn't do this, at least to the same degree. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 00:14:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id AAA15891; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:12:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:12:25 -0800 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: CF in EUV (Optical Fibers) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:11:49 +0000 Message-ID: <19970402081147.AAA7933 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"ByIGJ3.0.Du3.fJXGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Elliot Kennel wrote: >So it seems that EUV might be one area of the spectrum that might (at least in principle) yield a signature. The Thorium Tetrabromide that fluoresces at 400 nanometers (blue) from EUV, is water soluble, and the highest transparency for water is a 480 nanometer blue light with good transparency to below 400 nm. Would Th(Br)4 dissolved in the water still fluores with Euv around? Or, might there be other materials (soluble fluorescent dyes) that would do this in the water? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 01:17:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id BAA21682; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 01:01:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 01:01:37 -0800 Message-Id: <199704020901.LAA40116 sdn5.csc.dk> From: i3683 csc.dk (I3683) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 11:49:00 CET DST Subject: Re: Hutchinson To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"RQjwe2.0.fI5.m1YGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I seem to remember the government closed down his lab on the pretext of environmental reasons. Is this correct? >I suspect >that he created a hole into another dimension that allowed forces or >beings to come in. Seems likely. >Totally unscientific, Unfortunately, yes. >but if you've seen the video you know what I mean. I have forgot if the video is still available? > More recently, he developed a free-energy device that would run a small >fan motor with no input power. Details are undisclosed, but apparently it >involved shock-pulsing a Barium Titanate element. Why doesnt he disclose this invention? More details would be welcome. Regards, ANders From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 02:47:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id CAA29195; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 02:32:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 02:32:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3342353B.232 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 20:00:19 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, neotech xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Simple OU Device. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"50aR61.0.487.tMZGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Seems all this merging of ideas and nashing of teeth has finally come to some use. As I write this, sitting on my desk, is a very simple to build (approx 10 minutes) proof of principal OU device. It really works. It took me several days to fully accept this. My mind still, even now, says I have missed something. Watching it work blows my mind. When I showed it to my wife, she said "Of course it works, anyone could understand why". It is NOT based on the DNMEC effect. When you finally learn how it works, you will kick yourself. I am visiting my local, friendly, totally trustworthy local patent attorney early tomorrow. When he gives me the ok, you guys will be the first to know. Buy the way, a 10hp unit, build in a garage, would cost around $1-2k Aust. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 04:05:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id DAA03590; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 03:58:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 03:58:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 13:14:00 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" Message-ID: <33423f7c.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: "vortex" Subject: Excuse me Resent-Message-ID: <"pGqG-3.0.0u.adaGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FOR MIKE CARRELL!! Dear Vortexers, Excuse me for sending a personal message here: To Mike Carrell: Your new address seems to be inaccessible for the moment. My messages are returning. The Institute is surviving, so do I and my address is OK. The teaching module will start tomorrow. Thanks, Peter -- dr. Peter Gluck Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700 Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 04:40:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id EAA08532; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 04:38:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 04:38:14 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970402123623.008d44dc freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 07:36:23 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Ideas for directions - Increased Reproducibility Resent-Message-ID: <"oVZmp1.0.E52.rCbGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:26 PM 4/1/97 -0500,Mitchell Swartz wrote: > ("Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in > Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model of > Isotope Loading into a Material", Fusion Technology, vol 31, 63-74, > January (1997).). > ("Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of > Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300 (1992)) > (e.g. "ISOTOPIC FUEL LOADING COUPLED TO REACTIONS AT AN > ELECTRODE", Fusion Technology, 26, 4T, 74-77 (December 1994)), > involved in the successful running of these systems. > > Hope that helps. > Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) > In obtaining articles through the interlibrary loan service, the librarian asks for the author(s). Am I presuming correctly that your name appears on these three articles? Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 04:43:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id EAA09181; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 04:41:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 04:41:39 -0800 Message-Id: <199704021241.OAA27902 sdn5.csc.dk> From: i3683 csc.dk (I3683) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 15:34:00 CET DST Subject: Re: Simple OU Device To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"siS7c2.0.HF2.1GbGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am visiting my local, friendly, totally trustworthy local patent attorney early tomorrow. Reminds me of the British Marconi engineer (forgot his name) who a few years ago went to the local patent office with a similar invention. He was soon found murdered in a nearby lake. The patent office wouldnt disclose the contents of the patent application. The case had been "terminated" (!). Patent applications are (in some countries) initially reviewed by military intelligence, which may not be to the advantage of the applicant... Regards, Anders From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 05:12:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id FAA10673; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 05:08:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 05:08:21 -0800 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Ideas for directions - Increased Reproducibility Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:07:44 +0000 Message-ID: <19970402130742.AAA20070 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"RL5nk1.0.hc2.4fbGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:36 PM 4/2/97 +0000, Ed Strojny wrote: >At 10:26 PM 4/1/97 -0500,Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >> ("Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in >> Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model of >> Isotope Loading into a Material", Fusion Technology, vol 31, 63-74, >> January (1997).). >> ("Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of >> Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300 (1992)) >> (e.g. "ISOTOPIC FUEL LOADING COUPLED TO REACTIONS AT AN >> ELECTRODE", Fusion Technology, 26, 4T, 74-77 (December 1994)), >> involved in the successful running of these systems. >> >> Hope that helps. >> Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) >> >In obtaining articles through the interlibrary loan service, the librarian >asks for the author(s). Am I presuming correctly that your name appears on >these three articles? > >Ed Strojny > > I wrote the above titles on a large placard above my lab bench and use them for encantations when I start an experiment. The results are amazing. Nothing works, but the results ARE AMAZING! :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 06:32:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id GAA13754; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:29:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:29:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970402142842.0073de14 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 09:28:42 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Ideas for directions - Increased Reproducibility Resent-Message-ID: <"HmNyt1.0.qM3.lqcGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:36 AM 4/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >At 10:26 PM 4/1/97 -0500,Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >> ("Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in >> Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model of >> Isotope Loading into a Material", Fusion Technology, vol 31, 63-74, >> January (1997).). >> ("Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of >> Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300 (1992)) >> (e.g. "ISOTOPIC FUEL LOADING COUPLED TO REACTIONS AT AN >> ELECTRODE", Fusion Technology, 26, 4T, 74-77 (December 1994)), >> involved in the successful running of these systems. >> >> Hope that helps. >> Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) >> >In obtaining articles through the interlibrary loan service, the librarian >asks for the author(s). Am I presuming correctly that your name appears on >these three articles? > >Ed Strojny > > Yes. Please excuse the brevity; sorry for the confusion. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 06:48:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id GAA15394; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:43:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:43:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:44:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrogenation of Alkali Carbonates? In-Reply-To: <19970331014805.AAA29644 LOCALNAME> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mhQZt3.0.Rm3.g2dGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick and Mitchell, Agree with Mitchell, biggest problem with chemical reactions once you've done the thermodynamics is rate of reaction. Nice idea about the H2 stored in methanol. Big idustrial plants would be efficent - keeps oil barons, I.C.E. manufacturers happy for next 50 years and reduce structural unemployment? Still say the solution to CO2 problem (no... no... no politics please!) is to plant more trees (good young, quick growing pine trees) for us to hug. I'm sure nature would check the rapid growth of CO2 anyway by more blue-green algae, plankton etc. its just the dynamics of the planet are so slow. So a worthy problem if you ain't got hundreds of years to wait. I'm sure that control systems theorists must have something to say about tampering with chaotic systems with so much uncertainity - does the watched pot principle work here? Does heavy feedback work on such systems - or are we just creating another problem due to igronance? Also biological systems can remove CO2 well. Someone once made a 'synthetic' diesel from algae, or ethanol from sugar etc. No doubt these microbes thrive in warm, humid conditions of cooling towers. Now there's a way to use waste heat and reduce greenhouse gas emissions... Remi. Postscript: Currently messing with dynamics (Lagrangians, Hamiltonians, 3 body problem, non-integratable systems, state space, chaos), in too deep man, gonna need a paddle! An engineer is a book man (speaking for myself) when it comes to theory, long as the book is in front of him he can develop the concept with some rigour. But as every genuine mathematician knows, its the idea (a movie in your head, whatever) that's the seed. In that sense an engineer (or anybody) could seed an idea. It takes team work later on to get theory so that Tesla type instead of Edison type engineering can be done. E.g. Beethoven's landlady banged on his door giving the 4 note motive (What's With The Rent?). If she had mastered symphonic form I'm sure she could have written the fifth :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ My email fingers are becoming American accentuated, prolonged exposure principle. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 06:53:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id GAA15660; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:46:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:46:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <33427166.4176 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 09:47:02 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ideas for directions References: <199704011745.LAA13347 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ygWya1.0.bq3.G5dGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > My vote is for inter-lab replication of "large positive" experiments. As a CF lurker, it seems to me that one thing the field needs is a CO-OP for standard, non-proprietary materials. Administration of such a co-op would be a lot of work - perhaps a fall-back project would be a maintained list of "standard sources". You need some way to get "good" materials to all the scattered, small but productive CF efforts. Maybe I'm thinking of a "CF bureau of standards". Maybe, to a lazy old guy like me, this sounds like too much work. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 07:46:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id HAA19954; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:37:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:37:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:36:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199704021536.HAA17710 sweden.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"7WLHY2.0.it4.aqdGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Anders wrote: >Patent applications are (in some countries) initially reviewed by military >intelligence, which may not be to the advantage of the applicant... > Pat Flanagan's digital neurophone USA patent application, a device to help the deaf hear, was classified. He spent the next five years in court to get it unclassified. Pat could not even talk about his invention until it was unclassified. Even with a patent other companies can and do manufacture other peoples inventions without compensation because they have enough money to keep you in the court system for years. Unless you want the world, build and sell as many units you can. You will have a six months to three years window of opportunity before the major corporations decide to enter your market. In this time frame you could easly make several hundred million dollars. Best Regards and Good Luck, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 08:20:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id HAA31202; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:52:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:52:12 -0800 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: CF in EUV (Optical Fibers) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 15:51:35 +0000 Message-ID: <19970402155134.AAA18339 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"ZRk94.0.Pd7.h2eGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The literature states that a water soluble Uranyl compound fluoresces weakly. Fluorescein the organic dye in alkaline water solution gives strong fluorescence in concentrations as low as one part in 30,000,000. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 08:34:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id IAA24362; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:23:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:23:22 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:25:05 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CF in EUV (Optical Fibers) Resent-Message-ID: <"Cih1E1.0.ay5.uVeGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Elliot Kennel wrote: > At the moment I'm running a rapid deuterium loading experiment with >palladium wire and a hot tungsten filament deuterium source. I can also >operate in glow discharge mode. In any case there need not be an >intervening layer of glass or liquid between the palladium and the detector. >So perhaps I could make some EUV measurements if I knew what kind of sensors >to hang on it. I. too, know very little about EUV. The simplest detector, if you are in even a modest vacuum, is just a plate, say soldered on the end of a wire and biased negatively with respect to its environment. Photons above the work function emit electrons, which are repelled from the plate and are made up by a corresponding current flow in the wire. Simple. Low sensitivity. No spectral selectivity. You have to exclude charged particles, such as ions, which can be collected and give false signal. This makes life complicated, since any thin film I can think of would also exclude EVU. A standard technique is to add grids---a positively charged one to repel positive ions, a negative one to repel incident negative ions and electrons---just like in old pentodes (though the reasons were slightly different there). Elliot, keep us posted on the progress of the gas and glow experiment. As you know, I am very interested in these approaches. The glow makes copious atomic hydrogen, on the order of 10 atoms for each ion. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 08:45:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id IAA02616; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:21:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:21:50 -0800 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704021016.ZM13581 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:16:22 -0600 In-Reply-To: Remi Cornwall "Re: Hydrogenation of Alkali Carbonates?" (Apr 2, 8:39am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrogenation of Alkali Carbonates? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"aExGM2.0.ne.SUeGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 2, 8:39am, Remi Cornwall wrote: > Nice idea about the H2 stored in methanol. Big industrial plants would be > efficent - keeps oil barons, I.C.E. manufacturers happy for next 50 years > and reduce structural unemployment? > > Still say the solution to CO2 problem (no... no... no politics please!) is > to plant more trees (good young, quick growing pine trees) for us to hug. > I'm sure nature would check the rapid growth of CO2 anyway by more > blue-green algae, plankton etc. its just the dynamics of the planet are so > slow. Was paging through a reprint of an old reference text on various chemical how to from around 1847, and I ran across a neat little section on harvesting fuels from organics. Trees aren't the way, sweet root turnips are. Useful little buggers. Boiling the juice releases a suprising amount of useful ammonia compounds. As a by product of this process, a molasis type sludge is created that sugar can be refined from. While all this is going on, the vegetation can be processed for it's saltpeter content (ingredient of gunpowder). Don't recall who's friend was a farmer, but switching crops may be the quickest low tech way to begin harvesting more CO2 out of the environment. Another neat setup I was not aware of produces a combustable medium called water-gas. Steam pushed through some type of filter of red hot charcoal draws off light and heavy hydrocarbons, and hydrogen. An enhansed swamp gas if you will. Oh, how much we've forgotten ......... sigh. Lot's of neat stuff in this book. Anybody looking for any recipies to produce your own homemade base material compounds? -john -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 08:47:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id IAA26576; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:39:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:39:53 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Hydrogenation of Alkali Carbonates? Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:38:59 +0000 Message-ID: <19970402163855.AAA5831 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"2T-gD1.0.AV6.NleGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:44 PM 4/2/97 +0000, Remi wrote: > >Still say the solution to CO2 problem (no... no... no politics please!) is >to plant more trees (good young, quick growing pine trees) for us to hug. >I'm sure nature would check the rapid growth of CO2 anyway by more >blue-green algae, plankton etc. its just the dynamics of the planet are so >slow. There are species of bamboo that can fix over 20 tonnes of carbon per acre-year, as opposed to forests that do about 2 tonnes/acre-year. Aesthetically I'm for the trees though. > >Also biological systems can remove CO2 well. Someone once made a >'synthetic' diesel from algae, or ethanol from sugar etc. No doubt these >microbes thrive in warm, humid conditions of cooling towers. Now there's a >way to use waste heat and reduce greenhouse gas emissions... Yes, and the algae are good collectors of heavy metals also. I used to think that incineration of carbonaceous wastes was a good idea. Now I think that burial in a non-biodegradable landfill is a good way to keep that carbon out of the biosphere for a while. The algae do so well in stock watering tanks that there was use of copper sulphate to prevent this. I think that this practice has been outlawed now. > > >Currently messing with dynamics (Lagrangians, Hamiltonians, 3 body problem, >non-integratable systems, state space, chaos), in too deep man, gonna need >a paddle! How about a couple of 'oars? :-) >My email fingers are becoming American accentuated, prolonged exposure >principle. > Always accentuate the positive and eliminate while exposed. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 09:16:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id JAA01299; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:08:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:08:47 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Hydrogenation of Alkali Carbonates? Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:59:27 +0000 Message-ID: <19970402165925.AAA14039 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"cswr3.0.5K.RAfGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:16 PM 4/2/97 +0000, you wrote: >On Apr 2, 8:39am, Remi Cornwall wrote: > >> Nice idea about the H2 stored in methanol. Big industrial plants would be >> efficent - keeps oil barons, I.C.E. manufacturers happy for next 50 years >> and reduce structural unemployment? >> >> Still say the solution to CO2 problem (no... no... no politics please!) is >> to plant more trees (good young, quick growing pine trees) for us to hug. >> I'm sure nature would check the rapid growth of CO2 anyway by more >> blue-green algae, plankton etc. its just the dynamics of the planet are so >> slow. > >Was paging through a reprint of an old reference text on various chemical how >to from around 1847, and I ran across a neat little section on harvesting fuels >from organics. Trees aren't the way, sweet root turnips are. Useful little >buggers. Boiling the juice releases a suprising amount of useful ammonia >compounds. As a by product of this process, a molasis type sludge is created >that sugar can be refined from. While all this is going on, the vegetation can >be processed for it's saltpeter content (ingredient of gunpowder). Don't >recall who's friend was a farmer, but switching crops may be the quickest low >tech way to begin harvesting more CO2 out of the environment. > >Another neat setup I was not aware of produces a combustable medium called >water-gas. Steam pushed through some type of filter of red hot charcoal draws >off light and heavy hydrocarbons, and hydrogen. An enhansed swamp gas if you >will. > >Oh, how much we've forgotten ......... sigh. Lot's of neat stuff in this book. > Anybody looking for any recipies to produce your own homemade base material >compounds? > >-john > Don't see such down-home practicality in texts these days John. I have a college level chemistry text (Kahlenberg 1907)that I got ideas from while at Sandia Labs in the 50s that amazed the the materials science and chemists. My 1947 edition Britannnica will outshine my 1993 edition and the 95 Britannica CD ROM in many areas. Interesting about the turnips. I did a biomass article about them in 1973 for a small town newspaper that had circulation around the country. Lots of folks offered their land for a "turnip plantation". Needless to say, Peter Rabbit got top billing. :-) >-- >John E. Steck >Motorola Inc. > > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 09:59:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id JAA16480; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:25:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:25:20 -0800 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704021119.ZM14045 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:19:46 -0600 In-Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" "Re: Hydrogenation of Alkali Carbonates?" (Apr 2, 11:04am) References: <19970402165925.AAA14039 LOCALNAME> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrogenation of Alkali Carbonates? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"vPgCy3.0.Q14.-PfGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 2, 11:04am, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > Don't see such down-home practicality in texts these days John. I have > a college level chemistry text (Kahlenberg 1907)that I got ideas from > while at Sandia Labs in the 50s that amazed the the materials science > and chemists. My 1947 edition Britannnica will outshine my 1993 edition > and the 95 Britannica CD ROM in many areas. Always thought that to be the most ironic thing about the "information age" we are in. I find the cutoff for useful reference texts seems to be the late 60's (with exceptions). Anything after that seems mostly to be hasty garbage with just enough info to appear credible. To many, my collection of old books seems silly, but I couldn't part with a single one of them. I bet if I look hard enough there is a chapter on building pryrimids in there somewhere! 8^) -john -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 10:10:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id JAA21262; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:52:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:52:15 -0800 Message-ID: <33429AA0.4F65 skylink.net> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 09:42:56 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: John Hutchinson References: <9704012139.AA18092 mail1.halcyon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yw8_V.0.8C5.EpfGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred Epps wrote: > When I saw him, he was looking for ideas on how to market a "perpetual > battery" (my name), a small cannister filled with a cement-like substance > that continuously produces a small voltage. He makes the stuff in his sink. > It definitely does work, output voltage is up to a couple of volts, problem > was (as I saw it), the current was very small, less than a nA or so. John, > if you're out there, correct me if I'm wrong... This may be similar to Townsend Brown's petrovoltaics. There are lots of articles about this at the Townsend Brown website. In my opinion it is probably an effect of electrostatic induction from the earth's electric field. Add some metal contacts to any dielectric material, and you will naturally get some induced voltage, with almost negligible current available. One of the interesting things about Brown's experiments was the time variations in the induced voltage, and apparent correlations with things like the time of day, moon, and tides. Possible evidence of a link between the earth's electric field and gravitation? Also see Rognerud's website for a theory which describes how the earth's electric field may be a result of electrogravitics -- the Hooper/Edwards effect. You can pull useful power from the earth's electric field with a decent size antenna. In Jefimenko's book about electrostatic motors, he has a picture of himself running a small (DC) electrostatic motor from an antenna. Not much power, but enough to do something with. This energy is at least "free", if not O/U. Unfortunately, the first lightning storm will probably vaporize the apparatus, and possibly also yourself. Ben Franklin was lucky. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 10:12:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id JAA20113; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:44:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:44:30 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:48:10 -0900 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device. Resent-Message-ID: <"vdtB02.0.Bw4.zhfGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 8:00 PM 4/2/97, Greg Watson wrote: >Hi All, > >Seems all this merging of ideas and nashing of teeth has finally come to >some use. > >As I write this, sitting on my desk, is a very simple to build (approx >10 minutes) proof of principal OU device. It really works. It took me >several days to fully accept this. My mind still, even now, says I have >missed something. Watching it work blows my mind. When I showed it to >my wife, she said "Of course it works, anyone could understand why". > >It is NOT based on the DNMEC effect. When you finally learn how it >works, you will kick yourself. > >I am visiting my local, friendly, totally trustworthy local patent >attorney early tomorrow. > >When he gives me the ok, you guys will be the first to know. > >Buy the way, a 10hp unit, build in a garage, would cost around $1-2k >Aust. > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > 61 18 833 461 Mobile Congratulations Greg! Is it still working? Since vortex was the source of inspiration of your idea, maybe you could share a little something about it with us? What general kind of device is it, etc.? Noting that your post was dated April 2nd, I assume this is not an April fools prank? Let's see, 8 PM your time April 2nd, is still April 1st somewhere in the world isn't it? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 12:10:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id LAA08452; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:38:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:38:11 -0800 Date: 02 Apr 97 14:35:35 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Copyright violations Message-ID: <970402193534_100433.1541_BHG59-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"uDQIU3.0.x32.XMhGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, > while coming to the aid of his co-editor I know, Jed just can't hack it without my holding his hand. Poor chap, he sobs a lot. With laughter, sometimes. > Second, tell Evan that methinks that it may have been Mr. Rothwell > who first published it on the Internet for him. So ... anything on the 'net is immediately free of copyright? Or even free of asking the author if he minds? > No, put it down to yourself, a co-editor of Infinite Energy, > co-attacking an individual who merely pointed out some facts, with > that co-editor also ignoring the facts as shown above. My dear Mitchell, if I had been attacking anyone (as against a mild April 1st teasing of *two* grown men - Jed and yourself) it would have been very clear that I was doing that! > Give it a rest, Chris, but given that your sabers are out, here is > a comment. Ah, no. See above. > Chris, why did you interrupt Martin Fleischmann in your interview > of him? I think that's a question rather than a comment. The answer being that I didn't once interrupt him. The ellipses were intended to indicate that Martin stopped in the middle of a sentence - frequently for one of his bursts of unstoppable laughter. > He is one of the most interesting people whom I have ever met, and > his comments all too brief and tardive, are appreciated by all. Well, I certainly agree with that - even if I can't find 'tardive' in my dictionary. > Thanks for your interview of him. Just wish it were much longer > and deeper. The ladies felt that two hours of me had tired Martin. But you will see from the text that he intends this interview to be but the first in a series, so there may well be more to look forward to. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 12:21:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id MAA15464; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:15:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:15:22 -0800 Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:15:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199704022015.OAA13286 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Evan Ragland's address Resent-Message-ID: <"d2o6E.0.Xn3.PvhGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Evan Rragland 6640 Ahekolo Circle Diamondhead MS 39525 Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 12:46:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id MAA24878; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:16:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:16:14 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Light Electrons and Ion Exchange Resins Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:14:58 +0000 Message-ID: <19970402201456.AAA21348 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"vtpYK3.0.c46.BwhGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorti: IF there are free light electron-positron pairs in distilled and/or deionized water they should affect an ion exchange resin. Running such purified water through a cation-anion resin might allow the formation of Mills' "Hydrino" or "Deutrino" by absorption of a light electron by a proton from the resin. The light positrons should replace the protons on the resin. Concurrently, neutral hydroxyl radicals should be formed with the regular electrons replacing them. Or some such activity. A pair of hydroxyl radicals should combine forming water and releasing an oxygen atom. Thus there should be oxygen, "Hydrinos", and "Deutrinos" coming out with the effluent water along with some heat. Anybody have a resin cartridge that this could be tried with? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 12:58:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id MAA24311; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:52:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:52:24 -0800 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Evan Ragland's address Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:51:24 +0000 Message-ID: <19970402205122.AAA8278 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"Osofn3.0.nx5.7SiGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:15 PM 4/2/97 +0000, you wrote: >Evan Rragland >6640 Ahekolo Circle >Diamondhead MS 39525 > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > Rright you are Sscott> :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 13:31:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id NAA02940; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:09:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:09:37 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:13:18 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Urine burner with no politics attached Resent-Message-ID: <"vKZK21.0.pj.EiiGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: [snip] "The oxygen would make for a much more percussive burn (knocking) but the steam (extra water) should even out the power stroke. Such an engine would probably need a very goood specialized timing mechanism/computer control." [snip] Implicit in the above is the possible need for a water injection system. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 13:39:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id NAA02491; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:07:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:07:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:07:34 -0800 Message-Id: <9704022107.AA25602 mail1.halcyon.com> X-Sender: fepps mail.halcyon.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: fepps mail1.halcyon.com (Fred Epps) Subject: Rock energy and displacement current Resent-Message-ID: <"0XC4d.0.qc.cgiGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robert and all! >This may be similar to Townsend Brown's petrovoltaics. There are lots of >articles about this at the Townsend Brown website. In my opinion it is probably >an effect of electrostatic induction from the earth's electric field. Add some >metal contacts to any dielectric material, and you will naturally get some >induced voltage, with almost negligible current available. > >One of the interesting things about Brown's experiments was the time >variations in the induced voltage, and apparent correlations with things >like the time of day, moon, and tides. Possible evidence of a link between >the earth's electric field and gravitation? Also see Rognerud's website for >a theory which describes how the earth's electric field may be a result of >electrogravitics -- the Hooper/Edwards effect. Yes, I noticed the resemblance to petrovoltaics too, as well as Charles Brush's experiments with minerals and metals that generated excess internal heat. He believed that the minerals and metals were converting gravitational energy into heat. It doesn't seem likely that the the electric induction theory would hold up in this case. The periodic effects: yes, these show up in inertial forms (Allais, Saxl), chemical forms (Picard), and electrical forms (Brown). The inertial anomalies of Allais and Saxl were pronounced (on occasion, abrupt seconds-long changes in the period of a pendulum) and seem to indicate an astronomical source for the observations. The force of gravity from the planets was several magnititudes too small to account for the effects. Allais also did inertial tests in two locations simultaneously with identical results. Daily cycling indicates the Sun as a major source. Extending your electrical induction model, is it possible that there is an electrostatic transfer of energy from the Sun? Imagine the Sun as a charged sphere with the Earth another sphere nearby. The Earth develops an induced charge from the Sun. An observer on the surface of the Earth however experiences no charged state because within his system of measurements charge or voltage is defined relative to the Earth as "ground". But what is "ground" relative to? If the potential of the charged sphere changes suddenly there is a wave of displacement current to Earth. (There is some controversy over whether this travels at light speed or whether it is superluminal, and whether this current has a magnetic field). The earth's potential shifts relative to its former value-- but electrical instruments on Earth do not detect the shift because they are pinned to ground. That doesn't mean that the wave doesn't have measurable effects. Charging a capacitor is a lossless process, as Thomas Bearden has said. This means that changing the potential inside the sun could affect the potential of the Earth without ohmic losses. This is similar to the "wiggle wand" experiments done by the Electric Spacecraft group-- a charged rod was waved in the air some distance from an electrostatic detector connected to a scope and the scope showed the motions of the waves. Transmission of energy by purely electrostatic means is a reality. A russian patent has been taken out on this idea. It is possible-- and this is highly speculative-- that there are oscillations in this "Solar displacement wave" of a high-frequency pulsed DC nature. According to my theory, Earth ground would vibrate in precisely the same way (at its own charge level, of course) and no signals would be detectable. But a system detached from ground, which has a ground fixed to an internal reference point, might detect and step down these displacement waves to a lower frequency and higher power. Perhaps this is how the Moray device worked? >You can pull useful power from the earth's electric field with a decent >size antenna. In Jefimenko's book about electrostatic motors, he has a picture >of himself running a small (DC) electrostatic motor from an antenna. Not much >power, but enough to do something with. This energy is at least "free", if >not O/U. Unfortunately, the first lightning storm will probably vaporize the >apparatus, and possibly also yourself. Ben Franklin was lucky. Well, the mention of lightning brings to mind something I was playing around with when I was still trying to remember ohm's law (two years ago). It was my childish fantasy to tap lightning for power. It would be fairly easy to do but the question is, who would control it? It would have to be made by the Big Boys... The first thing you do is attract the lightning by changing the potential that the sky "see" when it looks at your patch of Earth. Obviously if your potential is a little higher than the land around you the lightning will take the preferential (least energy) path-- through you. You could do this in several ways. My favorite was a laser or maser pointed straght up that partially ionized some component of the air, creating a charged path for the lightning to take. You could also do it with charged towers or sheets, ot air ionization. The simplest way might be to take a disc of metal and give it a high potential by putting a high-voltage DC supply between it and ground. In the middle of the disc you need a very thick copper rod insulated from the disc. This is your lightning conductor. The principle is simple, the lightning homes in on your location because of the potential difference, but when it strikes, it strikes the rod first. Being an excellent conductor, the rod take most of the power to ground through a load. As I envisioned it, the load would be an expansion chamber partially filled with water. The lightning current would have to pass through the water. The water-explosive effects reported by Graneau would actually amplify the explosive force of the lightning energy. The force of the water rushing out of the chamber would drive some powerful turbines. Quite a fantasy, heh? The question is whether something like that would work on a smaller scale to pick up small discharges rather than lightning? I apologize for my long-windedness, you got me going with your very interesting post. Remember, speculation means never having to say you're wrong.. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 14:23:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id OAA07408; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:10:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:10:03 -0800 X-Sender: josephnewman earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:12:13 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Evan Ragland's address Resent-Message-ID: <"rgHVo1.0.dp1.wajGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Evan Ragland >6640 Ahekolo Circle >Diamondhead MS 39525 > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) Thanks, Scott! Evan (Ragland) Soule' From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 14:23:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id OAA09033; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:16:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:16:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3342D8D3.6D01 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 07:38:19 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Simple OU Device. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Duyyg2.0.-C2.zgjGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > Congratulations Greg! Is it still working? Since vortex was the source of > inspiration of your idea, maybe you could share a little something about it > with us? What general kind of device is it, etc.? It involves ferromagnetics. It produces torque. > Noting that your post was dated April 2nd, I assume this is not an April > fools prank? Let's see, 8 PM your time April 2nd, is still April 1st > somewhere in the world isn't it? > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hi Horace, NO, it is not a April 1 joke. YES it still works. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 14:29:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id OAA08891; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:16:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:16:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3342D7EB.2510 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 07:34:27 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: <199704021536.HAA17710 sweden.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2Rh_F3.0.mA2.XgjGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Randall wrote: > > Anders wrote: > > >Patent applications are (in some countries) initially reviewed by military > >intelligence, which may not be to the advantage of the applicant... I am quite aware of this path. > Pat Flanagan's digital neurophone USA patent application, a device to help > the deaf hear, was classified. He spent the next five years in court to get > it unclassified. Pat could not even talk about his invention until it was > unclassified. > > Even with a patent other companies can and do manufacture other peoples > inventions without compensation because they have enough money to keep you > in the court system for years. I have always believed that contracts are only as good as your ability to sue. Legal outcomes normally go with he who has the deepest pocket. > Unless you want the world, build and sell as many units you can. You will > have a six months to three years window of opportunity before the major > corporations decide to enter your market. In this time frame you could easly > make several hundred million dollars. Hi Michael, I fully believe once others start thinking outside the square, many "Devices" will come into existance. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 14:41:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id OAA12477; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:33:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:33:08 -0800 Date: 02 Apr 97 17:28:46 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Hilarious Dave Barry book Message-ID: <970402222845_72240.1256_EHB89-3 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"pUUz13.0.o23.ZwjGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I got the latest Barry book, "Dave Barry in Cyberspace." This is the funniest book about computers I have seen since Robert Cringely's classic: "Accidental Empires - How the boys of silicon valley make their millions, battle foreign competition, and still can't get a date." Here is a quote from the book jacket: The function of RAM is to give guys a way of deciding whose computer has the biggest, studliest, most tumescent memory. This is important, because with today's complex software, the more memory a computer has, the faster it can produce error messages. So the bottom line is, if you're a guy, you cannot have enough RAM. Bill Gates currently has over 743 billion 'megs' of RAM, and he still routinely feels the need to stuff a zucchini in his underwear - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 14:42:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id OAA17092; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:33:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:33:17 -0800 (PST) Date: 02 Apr 97 17:28:22 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Standard calorimeters, reproducible expe Message-ID: <970402222822_72240.1256_EHB89-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"cwGto.0.zA4.hwjGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Horace Heffner wrote: It seems like a vortex standard for wattage ranges, internal dimensions, power and other standards would be very useful. A vortex standard calorimeter. If a number of us had calorimeters built to accommodate some standard, even though built in different ways . . . I guess the big problem is that the devices to test seem to come in all sizes and powers. Well, that's the problem. Although they are basically similar, calorimeters must be built in slightly different ways with different materials and instruments. They come in all sizes because they have to. The application demands it. A calorimeter that works well at 1 to 10 watts will function poorly at 20 watts, and not at all at 100 watts. The only one I know that works superbly across this range of power levels the static calorimeter with the half silvered Dewar designed by Pons and Fleischmann. But most people don't need such a giant range, and they don't need such fantastic precision, so why bother reproducing it? Where are you going to get half-silvered Dewars? Why spend two months calibrating? Don't get me wrong: I think it is a marvelous gadget. But I think most people should stick with off-the-shelf parts in a calorimeter optimized for a particular power range. Furthermore, I think it is important that we use many different types of calorimeters: static, flow, thermoelectric, and various combinations. Otherwise, the "skeptics" will say we are all seeing the same artifact caused by the same equipment. For once they might be right. . . . it would then make possible design of devices to fit within the standard and make possible very quick calorimetry replications. Well . . . it seems pretty quick already. The slow part is testing the palladium and fabricating the cells. That takes months! Calibration and the experimental runs usually take a few weeks to a few months. There has also been a call here for more reproducible cell recipes. I myself do not have the skills or the equipment to reproduce any cell, but I can lend a hand. I have frequently noted that Cravens, Storms and others have published detailed recipes, which they claim will greatly increase reproducibility. Their own data appears to back this up. The best of these papers is: E. Storms, "How to Produce the Pons-Fleischmann Effect," Fusion Technology, March 1996 As anyone can see from the paper, and even more from talking with Storms, the techniques he describes call for great skill and arduous labor. It takes months to test cathodes, sort out the good ones, and improve them. But when Storms finishes doing that, he has a cathode that almost certainly will work. A skilled person who is willing to devote the next two years of his life to the project can probably reproduce these techniques. If you are not willing to put this kind of effort into it, then perhaps cold fusion is not for you. Not yet. It is kind of like programming microcomputer applications back in 1978. Jobs which anyone can do in minutes today took weeks back then. What we want, of course, is an experiment that is *easily* reproduced. We want one that does not call for a thousand hours of painstaking labor before each experimental run. We hope that something like the Ragland protocols will allow an end-run around the difficulties. That is devoutly to be wished, for many good reasons. If it comes about, it will promote the field and bring in new blood. I think that would be wonderful and important, but let me caution people not to confuse the true significance of an "easier" experiment. This will NOT prove the effect exists any more than today's painstaking Storms experiment does. Ease of reproducibility has never been held as a standard for the existence or nonexistence of a phenomenon. Back in 1820 when pure aluminum was more valuable than gold, people were still convinced it existed, because they had large enough samples to test. Quarks are expensive and difficult to observe, but nobody claims that calls into question their existence. The s/n ratio of the Storms experiment is excellent. The results are real beyond any rational doubt. The fact that it takes him weeks for him to prepare between runs has no bearing on the s/n ratio. The fact that few other people have achieved this high reproducibility is irrelevant. Few people have tried. As far as I know, only Cravens and Fleischmann have taken the trouble to do the experiments the way Storms describes. Other people have failed because they are incapable of following directions. Still others never try, because they think they know how to do it better. They ignore the instructions, or follow them part way. This is like mixing the right ingredients for a cake and then trying to bake it at 1000 deg F. You have to follow *all* of the directions. You can't ignore the parts about the operating temperature, or the surface treatment, or testing for expansion. When Fleischmann tells you six reasons why your experiment does not work, it is no good fixing two of them before trying again. You have to fix all six. And he might come back and find six more mistakes. Be prepared for that. You can think up more new ways to screw it up than he can anticipate in advance. Now, let me indulge in a little early aviation history. Please skip the rest of this message if you don't give a hoot about Bleriot, Chanute or the two Charlies. As I pointed out in my paper, this situation is analogous to the French non-reproductions of the Wrights from 1902 to 1908. Anyone can see from the photos of the Bleriot Model IV or the 14-Bis that these are not replications of the Wright patent. The French read the Wright patents and scientific papers, but they decided they knew better and they would do it their own way. When they failed, they blamed it on the Wrights. To this day, their many apologists blame the Wrights for being "obscure" and for "hiding secrets." Hiding them in plain sight, like "The Purloined Letter"! That is the theme of popular accounts like the Time Life Series book which begins with a chapter "Rediscovering the Secrets of Kitty Hawk." ("Secrets" available free to anyone in the patent! "Secrets" that were common knowledge in every corner of Europe two months after the first demonstration flight!) I expect that in the year 2097 people will be writing a chapters about how Cravens, Storms, Fleischmann kept "secrets" during the 1990s. Yet the three of them tell me, with considerable frustration, that they have repeated themselves endlessly and explained it all in detail, yet nobody will listen, and nobody will follow their prescriptions. Indeed they have. I got the message loud and clear years ago, and I have been promoting their techniques ever since, just as Chanute promoted the Wrights. In other words, those in the audience still listening -- both of you -- please stop saying "we need a recipe." Be honest, and say: "We need an easier recipe, because I don't feel like cutting propellers and screwing around with Arnstein's Hard Cement for the next six months. We need an airplane we can build in a week, straight out of the box, like a 1985 ultralight." Just don't forget it took four generations before airplanes got that easy to build. If you don't want to try it Storms' way, fine. You should stand by, wait, and hope that Ragland's way is easier. But don't use the difficulties as an excuse to claim that it cannot be done! That irks me, and it irks the hell out of Storms and Fleischmann. In a personal aside, many people have criticized me for "talking" rather than "doing." This, I think, is rather like criticizing Chanute, Berg, William Hammer, Charlie Taylor or Charlie Furnas ("the two Charlies") for not inventing the airplane, and for not reproducing it as quickly as, say, Glen Curtis. Those guys couldn't do it, any more than I can build a cell. But least they stood by with hammers, Arnstein's Hard Cement, and good suggestions. They made themselves useful. They earned an honorable place in the history books for their contributions to the Wright experiments. They helped to build the hanger on Kitty Hawk. I believe I have contributed at least that much. The legions of skeptics who said it couldn't be done, and the people who tried to do it without studying the work of masters are now ridiculed -- as they should be. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 14:46:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id OAA14320; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:41:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:41:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3342D033.7DE6 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 22:31:31 +0100 From: Craig Haynie Reply-To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Cold Fusion on Scientific American's Web Page References: <9704022107.AA25602 mail1.halcyon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mBsWA3.0.eV3.E2kGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Several of you were mentioned last week on Scientific American's Web Page, in a write-up of the current progress of cold fusion. It's no longer on this week's page, but it's still on the web site at this address: http://www.sciam.com/askexpert/physics.html#acs109 Dr. Barry Merriman and Dr. Eugene Mallove were mentioned, among others, and a reference was made to both home pages. It seemed a fairly well balanced write-up to me, though the author did call it 'pathological science' toward the end. Nevertheless, the progress was mentioned in somewhat of a positive light, including Dr. Miley's atomic transmutation discoveries. Hasta, Craig Haynie (Houston) ccHaynie ix.netcom.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 14:52:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id OAA18417; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:41:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:41:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:45:24 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"b-bBx2.0.gV4.Y2kGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 7:34 AM 4/3/97, Greg Watson wrote: >I fully believe once others start thinking outside the square, many >"Devices" will come into existance. > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > 61 18 833 461 Mobile Everything within the confines of Maxwell's laws *is* within the square, and well trampled and trodden besides. True? The really unknown territory seems to be in the quantum mechanical realm, which includes macro effects like superconductivity, superfluidity, and ZPE. Is your device using a battery or some other external power source, or is it a perpetual motion device as your description seems to imply? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 14:56:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id OAA19905; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:51:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:51:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3342D342.73D1 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 22:44:35 +0100 From: Craig Haynie Reply-To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Cold Fusion on Scientific American's Web Page References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fA6vb2.0.us4.lBkGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here are some of the positive things said: "Even so, several laboratories continued cold fusion experiments. Excess power remained small and sporadic. If some of the recent reports of new work can be verified, however, the years of effort might be paying off. Pons and Fleischmann now report excess powers of 100 watt (150 percent of the input power) sustained over a 30-day run. The Pons and Fleischmann technique calls for about 20 days of electrolytic conditioning, after which the cell is allowed to heat to boiling for the power run. This technique was reportedly reproduced by a separate group under G. Lonchampt, with support by the French Atomic Energy Commission and in consultation with Pons. Other groups in Japan and Italy are beginning to report excess powers in the 30 to 100 percent range. Experimental results of this magnitude are far beyond ordinary chemistry and point toward the possible existence of some new effect. It might not be 'cold fusion' at all. Whether the effect is a new kind of chemical reaction, a new pathway for nuclear reactions, or something either more surprising or more mundane will only be known after more research. "There are tantalizing new hints about possible products from nuclear reactions. Tadahiko Mizuno's group at the University of Hokkaido in Japan analyzed the components of a Pd-heavy water cell before and after an extended run at high temperature. They reported low concentrations of a range of heavy elements, including calcium, titanium, chromium, manganese, iron, cobalt, copper and zinc. George Miley of the University of Illinois, working with Patterson cells and either nickel or layered nickel-palladium cathodes, also reported a wide range of medium and heavy elements. Similar, but less detailed, results have been related by a few other groups. Production of such heavy nuclei is so unexpected from our present understanding of low-energy nuclear reactions, that extraordinary experimental proof will be needed to convince the scientific community. All available analytical techniques will have to be applied and the results reproduced. CETI recently started lending Patterson cells to independent laboratories to speed up research. Hasta, Craig Haynie (Houston) ccHaynie ix.netcom.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 15:25:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id OAA18760; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:58:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:58:46 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:02:48 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Standard calorimeters, reproducible expe Resent-Message-ID: <"ecy_N.0.2b4.bIkGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:28 PM 4/2/97, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] Where are you going to get half-silvered >Dewars? Why spend two months calibrating? I bought my 4.3 liter dewar from Cole-PArme for about $200. [snip] > > . . . it would then make possible design of devices to fit within the > standard and make possible very quick calorimetry replications. Maybe this is a place for governtment funding - replication of purported o-u devices. (Not limited to CF.) [snip] > >What we want, of course, is an experiment that is *easily* reproduced. Amen. [snip] >I believe I have contributed at least that much. The >legions of skeptics who said it couldn't be done, and the people who tried to >do it without studying the work of masters are now ridiculed -- as they should >be. > >- Jed I can't speak for others, but one thing that has inspired me to spend just about every spare dime and moment I have on odd books and weird looking stuff are the thought provoking debates I saw you have with Dick Blue on s.p.f. Thanks for your inspiration and for your wonderful contributions and reports here and through I.E. Surely there must be similar people all over the world moved to action by your words online and in I.E. Your effect from these things may never be fully appreciated. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 15:32:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id PAA24555; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 15:25:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 15:25:39 -0800 Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:25:26 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199704022325.RAA07618 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Simple OU Device. Resent-Message-ID: <"Ea_Ps2.0.b_5.ohkGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:38 4/3/97 +0930, Greg wrote: >It involves ferromagnetics. It produces torque. Greg, you said it was a "proof of principle" device. Be careful, if all you have is something that LOOKS like it produces more energy than it consumes, like the "magnetic gate" devices that were discussed recently, you may still be on the normal side of unity. Does your device "run" continuously by itself? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 16:09:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id PAA29672; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 15:59:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 15:59:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3342F29A.4584 worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 13:58:21 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rock energy and displacement current References: <9704022107.AA25602 mail1.halcyon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dz6-C3.0.XF7.8BlGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred - > The first thing you do is attract the lightning by > changing the potential that the sky "see" when it > looks at your patch of Earth. Obviously if your > potential is a little higher than the land around you > the lightning will take the preferential (least > energy) path-- through you. > You could do this in several ways. My favorite > was a laser or maser pointed straght up that > partially ionized some component of the air, > creating a charged path for the lightning to take. > You could also do it with charged towers or sheets, > ot air ionization. I think small rockets (like large hobby rockets, perhaps) with either something mixed in their fuel for a conductive exhaust (iodine crystals?) or simply playing out a coil of fine wire, are used now in lightning experiments. Ok I forget the details, but they were rockets. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 16:18:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id QAA31742; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:01:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:01:26 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970403000051.006a25b8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 19:00:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Copyright violations Resent-Message-ID: <"GKlIr1.0.tl7.LDlGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:35 PM 4/2/97 EST, you wrote: >Mitchell, > > > while coming to the aid of his co-editor > >I know, Jed just can't hack it without my holding his hand. Poor chap, >he sobs a lot. With laughter, sometimes. > > > Second, tell Evan that methinks that it may have been Mr. Rothwell > > who first published it on the Internet for him. > >So ... anything on the 'net is immediately free of copyright? Or even >free of asking the author if he minds? > It is interesting that Chris Tinsley and Jed remain the ONLY ones so far to whine incessantly about publication of cold fusion material. Funny that. Perhaps they are scoping for a monopoly with Infinite Energy From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 16:50:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id QAA07358; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:45:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:45:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3342FB63.1DC3 skylink.net> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 16:35:47 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Longitudinal magnetic component of EM References: <3335CE8F.426 verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"w_Iy03.0.qo1.gslGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > May these papers are the theories that just we looking for: > > hep-th/9609144 Essay on the Non-Maxwellian Theories of Electromagnetism > - Dvoeglazov, V V > > hep-th/9608038 Convection displacement current and alternative form of > Maxwell-Lorentz equations - Chubykalo, A E; Smirnov-Rueda, R > > hep-th/9605093 The phase free, longitudinal, magnetic component of > vacuum electromagnetism - Chubykalo, A E; Evans, M W ; Smirnov-Rueda, R Yes. There are some good insights in these. Thank you very much. Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 17:08:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id RAA08759; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:00:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:00:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <334300DC.241E worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 14:59:17 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Megalithic transport legends References: <19970402165925.AAA14039 LOCALNAME> <9704021119.ZM14045@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"30EEQ1.0.m82.m4mGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Steck wrote (under thread"Re: Hydrogenation of Alkali Carbonates?"): > "I bet if I look hard enough there is a chapter on building > pryrimids in there somewhere! 8^)" An article on the front page of our paper here describes the proper refurbishing underway of a site involving a set of large boulders down on Waikiki beach that have been there since ancient times. They are a sort of monument to a quartet of wizards/healers from the Society Islands (Tahiti). The question is how these basalt rocks weighing many tons each were transported across Waikiki's swamps from their quarry in the hills a few miles away. They called it Waikiki's pyramid-style mystery, or something like that. The legend says that the stones were placed to hold the "Mana" or spiritual energy, of the popular healers when they left the islands after serving both commoner and royalty alike with healing skills and knowledge. What got my attention was that the wizards asked that a certain kind of basalt be used, called "bell stone", because of an unusual acoustic property - it rings when struck. Now this stuff is pretty far fetched, but legends from different parts of the world, including from the area of the large basaltic block ruins of Tiahuanico in South America, seem to imply some acoustic activity in connection with the levitation and transport of large stones. The natives around Tiahuanaco supposedly told the Spanish when asked how the stones were transported (in this case many monster blocks carried from as far as 40 miles away across steep mountainous terrain) that the priests blew their trumpets and the rocks would float in the air and could be easily carried. Similar story come out of Tibet and other areas. The Hawaiian legend did not specify the method used to transport the Waikiki stones, but an unusual acoustic property was specifically called for. Does anybody know about the "singing stones", or something similar from somewhere on the Eastern US mountains? I remember seeing a musician playing on a set of these stones when I was a kid (no levitation witnessed). Surprisingly the rocks were not cut to different sizes to get the required notes, the tone frequency itself was inherent in a particular mass of rock, and pieces had to be hunted and tested to build a lithophone, or whatever the thing is called. Last I read, scientists had figured out the mechanism for the production of the specific notes. What could possibly be the connection between such stones and levitation? With wild speculation, anything, of course! There's a physicist in Alabama who has a theory that phonons in the crystal lattice of a superconductor that is somewhat close to 0K cause quantized gyrations of the lattice atoms that somehow generate a gravitomagnetic field which, due to a factor which magnifies the effect, might be measurable in the lab. This led to the Podkletnov/Tampere thing. That factor (which I'm not even pretending to understand) has something to do with changes in the electrical and gravitational permittivity of free space somehow due to the superconducting electrical currents interacting with the quantized lattice atom gyrations. If certain special stones have some capacity to accumulate acoustic energy at a specific note, and that resonance or whatever it is originates from conditions at the molecular/nuclear level, then perhaps there is a connection. Piezoelectric effects are also common in rocks and when there is sound, there is charge moving. Tiny patches of room-temperature superconductivity in areas like crystal faces or boundaries might not be an uncommon property in some materials. Like I said, wild speculation of probably the worst kind: jumping from legends to rumors and theories to make a sort of connection. But those legends really are rather consistent and far flung. Such things sometimes have a source in real events. Anyway, I want to get myself a piece of that "bell stone" basalt, maybe hang it in a balance while playing loud... rock music, of course. Anybody know if the stones of Tiahuanaco ring? We could ask Chris Tinsley to try banging on one of the lintels of Stonehenge too, but I hear they don't let people like him anywhere near the things anymore. ;) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 18:17:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id SAA23916; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:11:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:11:00 -0800 Message-ID: <01BC3F99.A843E7E0 ip49.ts2.phx.inficad.com> From: Reed Huish To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Hutchinson Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:24:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BC3F99.A84D0FA0" Resent-Message-ID: <"wSdgI1.0.Xr5.o6nGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC3F99.A84D0FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "More recently, he developed a free-energy device that would run a small fan motor with no input power. Details are undisclosed, but apparently = it involved shock-pulsing a Barium Titanate element. When I saw him, he was looking for ideas on how to market a "perpetual battery" (my name), a small cannister filled with a cement-like = substance that continuously produces a small voltage. He makes the stuff in his = sink. It definitely does work, output voltage is up to a couple of volts, = problem was (as I saw it), the current was very small, less than a nA or so. = John, if you're out there, correct me if I'm wrong..." Hutchison as developed some incredible phenomena which I have seen on = video, such as a floating cannonball. Recently, we have entered into a partnership with Hutchison to build = several of his crystal energy converters for testing. Each cell is = quite small in size and power output (1.5 volts at 0.25-1 amp). The = ideal configuration would be a honeycomb-type plastic injection molding = whereby we could connect dozens if not hundreds of these small cells = together in a small package to increase power output to a reasonable = size. We are in the process of acquiring the materials John requested to = build several prototypes. John says with a proper lab he can increase = the power output and reduce the size dramatically -- right now we just = want to prove these cells work as 'eternal batteries'. If anyone is interested in working on this project, please contact me. - Reed ------------------------------ Zenergy Corporation 390 South Robins Way, Chandler, Arizona 85225-6440 Tel: 602.814.7865 Fax: 602.821.0967 Email: info zenergy.com Inet: = http://zenergy.com ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC3F99.A84D0FA0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhgCAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAHAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2lt by5jb20AU01UUAB2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAUAAAAdm9ydGV4LWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbQADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAWAAAA J3ZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20nAAAAAgELMAEAAAAZAAAAU01UUDpWT1JURVgtTEBFU0tJTU8u Q09NAAAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAACMDMBBIABAA8AAABSRTogSHV0 Y2hpbnNvbgAUBQEFgAMADgAAAM0HBAACAAsAGAAsAAMALAEBIIADAA4AAADNBwQAAgALABgAGwAD ABsBAQmAAQAhAAAAQkFGNUVGRDgzN0FCRDAxMUI5N0M0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAAHwcBA5AGADQHAAAU AAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwAuAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQBAQBcjkz+8AR4A cAABAAAADwAAAFJFOiBIdXRjaGluc29uAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvD+TIw7Y7/W7qzcR0Ll8REVT VAAAAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAEQAAAHJlZWRAemVuZXJneS5jb20AAAAA AwAGEONYPWkDAAcQXgUAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAACJNT1JFUkVDRU5UTFksSEVERVZFTE9QRURBRlJF RS1FTkVSR1lERVZJQ0VUSEFUV09VTERSVU5BU01BTExGQU5NT1RPUldJVEhOT0lOUFVUUE9XRVJE RVRBSUxTQVJFVU5ESVMAAAAAAgEJEAEAAACxBQAArQUAAEEIAABMWkZ17tkDS/8ACgEPAhUCpAPk BesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArAc2V07jIGAAbDAoMyA8YHEwKDrjMDRgdtAoM0Ew19CoCLCM8J2TsXzzI1 NQKABwqBDbELYG5nMTAzjxQgCwoS8gHQICJNBbAUZSAX0GMJ8HRseZgsIGgcsA2wdmUXYGJwCYAg YSADUAngLVMJ8ASQZ3kdkmkc8CBWdBHABUB3CGBsHiBylnUDoB5AcwDAbGwKhXZmA5EEYHQFsQPw H5AgSG5vIAuAcHUFQHDEb3cEkC4gRBIAC3BebAQgCsAcsCBQZAQAYysXYBHwZB1QYiKxYXC3CrEd AyJwdAqFC4B2BvADHcAeIHNob2NrLVcioCOgC4BnHjFCCsBp7HVtFKEBkG4fsBywHdC2ZQeAAjAu CoUp0FcdcNUDoEkgkGEH4GgHcB1TzHdhBCAXYG9rJ5ICEP8mQQ2wK0ECIB1gIvAfgCJgWQDAcmsS AB4xIh4ActkeAHR1B0AKhWIfsCjAwHJ5IiAobR8AKKDNB4ApHVAghSBjAHADAP5zLwEeUAMQKQAe ICIDHkBjHPApIi1saS1gIJB1/mIw4ABwHPAKhR+TBaACMFULgHUIYHMloXADYGQ+dRzwI7EwJSaB AZBnZf0jMEgcsADALWAEIB+QMrG/LiAN0CJxKqEEICeBaylmfkkFQA2xC4AiEB3QHwFv3weRH+At UB1QCGB0IqI2BfMicAQgdXAs8jHxCGALUO0csG83oDYCcx1QNPECYPcpEAqFKzIoK0EqVCIQL+H9 NyJjCHAlYisjHcAvICCUnx1QKQAEER+RIGJuQSyACQXAc28jMEpvaG7WLCX2N6B5CGAnHKE6gf83 EhfQHVAFoRzRBUAHgEMStEknKEB3A2Aa0C5F4PYiCoUKhUgisBGwBAAskb8rQR2oQiBE8jMwF9Fp PWH/ItAqEUiBKKAf0CqwEbAqQX8RwB3AIJAJ4SyCH0ANsG//HVAy0EpBK0EeQRdgH7Ankr8wkgIg LtAg0ClmCoVSHOf/IwBKhB0BRCEeIAuAO9MKsf50HsEm8AUgIfRHCC0BJOD3AxAm0R2xcgdAPII3 8gUA/nkzAQMgHrU0IUBBLwEEIJ8r8ijAMOAnkSMwIEUA0O8iMBzwMGE4AXFSkCjBMDT7N8EAkHoc sABwHiAi4zp2cCgxLjU8tB4wBUAwEi4aAC0xHjBtcCl9ViFUHXEsMjBxAiAxMGfvCHBMoSyRH+Ri WEEssR7AxnkFoAbQLXR5HgAi0OsLYFXRYyJxakSxXHIEYO8gECeSShBEIWIfAE8xPCH/IBE0IR7A RME50FgwBjFDIfsiUAVAaCQRF9EscTegNyHvEfAwJlaxNwFvNlBEAjey/zAWCrAnIDsyLQFIwytA SVH/WLo702ZiAiABoDxhWBIjMP5XWEEcoTfBNyI08TVBYtP/ANBXIQUQJ6E3IgDALwEHMf8EIEJi HMFXIFXBHhFSXzTx+yHAXgJzViFsAypwU/Axlv808S3RK2ABoB1iMJFmKGmT/1i6WGIX0TUxNxRY ImKQL7DPTKEwkCDQHwAtLRzAXBDeaAVAIlAH4E8xajSgP+L/P9EtATTxSrFjJGPkOiJHkj4nEgAE kVMxLtQIkHMn9U2tSWphbkNQHsA7YlAx/0QhbKM3wToiJ5JSIjfyNPH/XvI9ESkAZoI0IgDQRNJN rfcLRhQhC/A0dKBOgQmARizvdLCBz4KJCoVaHrUIUC3wpwWwXFMKhTM5HFBTOoHbIjAIAGILgAQg V28wHVBqQ0FhZCkAch1QBxF6IWghIDg1MlpxNjQKNAp2VB3QOiA2MAAyLjgxNC43OEI2WaAgRmF4 iWUy4VmAMDk2N1YxAMADELeJYAuAAhBAYaEe0i5dsXUp0EkewHSJYHUQOqA6fC8vjFkKjxvYjqUW 8QABkQAAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMAAsZhmTP7wBQAAIMAAsZhmTP7wBHgA9AAEAAAAF AAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAAEkn ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC3F99.A84D0FA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 19:15:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id TAA02224; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 19:12:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 19:12:40 -0800 From: RMCarrell aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:11:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970402221150_1485762621 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Excuse me Resent-Message-ID: <"ZYMxD.0.gY.d0oGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Peter, For the time being, you can continue to use my aol address, but I should also get mail at mikec snip.net. Glad you and the institute are surviving. Has the package with the books and tapes arrived yet? Regards, Mike From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 22:32:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id WAA23199; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:30:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:30:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:28:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199704030628.WAA13429 norway.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"27AmQ.0.Ig5.bvqGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Greg, Congradulations on your success!!! Sorry about my last message, it was just shell-shock. I also have a thousand questions about your invention. Looking forward to hearing more when you are able to tell us! Sincerely, Michael From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 00:20:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id AAA17077; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 00:05:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 00:05:39 -0800 Message-Id: <199704030805.KAA38384 sdn5.csc.dk> From: i3683 csc.dk (I3683) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 10:56:00 CET DST Subject: Ang.: Standard calorimeters, reproducible expe MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com, 72240.1256@compuserve.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <"mNktv3.0.lA4.IJsGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > E. Storms, "How to Produce the Pons-Fleischmann Effect," Fusion > Technology, March 1996 Do you have volume and page numbers, by chance? Regards, ANders From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 00:38:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id AAA20039; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 00:36:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 00:36:24 -0800 Message-ID: <334369FD.22FD microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 17:57:41 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device. References: <199704022324.RAA07541 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Nk02T1.0._u4.7msGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 07:38 4/3/97 +0930, Greg wrote: > > >It involves ferromagnetics. It produces torque. > > Greg, you said it was a "proof of principle" device. > > Be careful, if all you have is something that LOOKS like it produces more > energy than it consumes, like the "magnetic gate" devices that were > discussed recently, you may still be on the normal side of unity. > > Does your device "run" continuously by itself? Hi Scott, As a "Proof of principle" device which very clearly delivers more kinetic energy in a one shot demo, Yes it works. I should retract the "It produces torque" statement just at this monent in time. As a self running device, it theory, it works. It will however clearly take more than 10 minutes to build such a beast. A self running device will be the basis for the patent application. Scott, I appreciate your input and caution. I share your doubts myself. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 00:40:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id AAA20064; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 00:36:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 00:36:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3343664C.7BCB microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 17:41:56 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"30wT62.0.Pv4.AmsGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 7:34 AM 4/3/97, Greg Watson wrote: > > >I fully believe once others start thinking outside the square, many > >"Devices" will come into existance. > > > >-- > >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au > >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > > 61 18 833 461 Mobile > > Everything within the confines of Maxwell's laws *is* within the square, > and well trampled and trodden besides. True? The really unknown territory > seems to be in the quantum mechanical realm, which includes macro effects > like superconductivity, superfluidity, and ZPE. > > Is your device using a battery or some other external power source, or is > it a perpetual motion device as your description seems to imply? > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hi Horace, Battery - No, Electricity - No, Perpetual Motion - No (Depends on now big the square is). -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 01:10:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id BAA24749; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 01:09:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 01:09:28 -0800 Message-ID: <33437344.74F9 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 18:37:16 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Simple OU Device. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OTN8g.0.Y26.5FtGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Just a note to try to answer many questions. 1) NO it is not a April 1 joke. 2) It may not be patentable. 3) You can verify the kinetic energy gain with only the aid of your eyes and a basic knowledge of physics. The effect is really very simple. As a light bulb is simple, but look at now long Edison laboured to find the proper mix to make it work. 4) The demo unit I have built is not self running. It was not designed to do that. 5) A self running unit would be the basic for any patent claim or company structure. 6) If a patent can't be obtained, I will explore option to bring the device to market as quickly as possible. Anyone who has an interest in this is invited to contact me. 7) Financial assistance will not be sought until a self running unit exists. I still have my doubts. 8) I don't seek to become mega rich, but I do realize the size of the market AND the problems which would be faced. This is NOT the place for the timid or the overambitious. 9) I really wish I could discuss this with the group and still be able to file for a patent later. But that's not the way the system works. 10) This is not a game or a con or a fraud. It is very hard for me to hold back details. It is not normally in my nature to restrict information. Time and wiser heads may prove me wrong, but I am not attempting to fool anyone, least not this company. I respect your input and comments. KEEP UP THE COMMENTS. Always remember : None of us is as Smart as all of us. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 03:43:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id DAA08145; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 03:42:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 03:42:37 -0800 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:42:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrogenation of Alkali Carbonates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"prCGw2.0.A_1.iUvGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Hugo, You're right, I remember the experiment in the pacific. Looks like the environmental lobby are pretty impotent on this CO2 issue. I think it attracts the same type of people who bashed the tobacco industry (though I don't smoke) - they just want a flag to wave without proffering solutions. Their solution is the sneaky "friend (fiends) in government legislation trick and denial of freedoms". Remi. (Damn! Did it again!) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 03:56:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id DAA08449; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 03:48:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 03:48:25 -0800 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:48:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrgn.. Ah, now we see how the engineer thinks! In-Reply-To: <19970402165925.AAA14039 LOCALNAME> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"anP2p.0.x32.8avGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John and Frederick, On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > Don't see such down-home practicality in texts these days John. I have > a college level chemistry text (Kahlenberg 1907)that I got ideas from > while at Sandia Labs in the 50s that amazed the the materials science > and chemists. My 1947 edition Britannnica will outshine my 1993 edition > and the 95 Britannica CD ROM in many areas. > So the engineer is a practical man, gets his hands dirty, observant, encyclopedic array of techniques - not necessarily textbook. Textbooks tend to be written by an ivory towered clique, sad fact is cliques subject to the vaguries of fashion, tradition and perceived wisdom. Thank God for the whistle blower and the can-do man! Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 04:28:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id EAA16271; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 04:27:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 04:27:06 -0800 Message-Id: <199704031226.OAA44054 sdn5.csc.dk> From: i3683 csc.dk (I3683) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 13:08:00 CET DST Subject: Ang.: Re: Simple OU Device; Ampere Electrodynamics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <"pWLYr1.0.9-3.O8wGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Everything within the confines of Maxwell's laws *is* within the square,= >and well trampled and trodden besides. True? The really unknown terri= tory >seems to be in the quantum mechanical realm, which includes macro effec= ts >like superconductivity, superfluidity, and ZPE. One could almost define an orthodox physicist as one who believes in Max= well's=20 equations, in Einstein's theories, (and not in OU devices and not in CF).= Maxwell's equations are not the full story about electromagnetism. While MAxwell's equations are within the square, electromagnetism as suc= h=20 contains ample unknown territory, I think. Where do you get "Ampere Electrodynamics" by Graneau, btw? I have diffic= ulting=20 locating a source of this book. Stefan Marinov has soon spent a lifetime challenging Maxwell's equations= (and=20 Einstein's theories). He has collected a number of experiments in=20 electromagnetism that contradict or seem to contradict MAxwell's equatio= ns. Including torque producing experiments where no torque should be expecte= d=20 according to Maxwell's equations. For a couple of years he has been busy trying to make a free energy mach= ine with electromagnetism, actually ferromagnets. He even announced (last year?) = that he=20 had an OU machine (the Siberian Coliu) running. Now he has retracted his = statement, and is depressed. His announcement was premature, he has fail= ed to=20 make it work, and at the moment he seems to have lost all interest in=20 ferromagnets. Some of the work of Marinov looks insane, some of it looks= very=20 sane. The quality varies a lot. The Russians at the St Petersburg conference told about decades of very = interesting work with ether technology, which involved transmitting torq= ue over=20 long distances using an otherwise unknown form of ether waves. "Torsional waves" I belive they called them. I havent found anything on = that in=20 Western litterature. It seemed to be related to electromagnetism, but di= fferent. Does anyone here know about "torsional waves" and where it is described = in=20 Western litterature?? Regards Anders From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 05:07:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id FAA22389; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 05:05:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 05:05:46 -0800 Message-Id: <199704031305.PAA52932 sdn5.csc.dk> From: i3683 csc.dk (I3683) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 15:54:00 CET DST Subject: Ang.: Simple OU Device. MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <"De3BN.0.jT5.fiwGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Time and wiser heads may prove me wrong, but I am not >attempting to fool anyone, least not this company. I respect your input= >and comments. KEEP UP THE COMMENTS. Thus prompted I will add a further comment, which may not be very helpfu= l. A good many years ago at a public meeting somewhere a mr. Kromrey (do I = remember the name correctly?) told me about a simple OU machine he had=20 built for an astronomic amount of taxpayers' money. He patented it, too.= I=20 think I have a copy of the patent somewhere. It used ferromagnetics, and= it=20 used torque, instead of producing torque. This difference may be minor. This story belongs to the subject of N-machines or homopolar generators, = which (I believe) go way back to Tesla, and before him to FAraday. In later decades a number of persons have claimed overunity from a=20 homopolar generator. In principle the persons rotate an electrically =20 conducting permanent magnet along its N-S axis. The persons have in=20 principle a gliding contact at the equator and at the axis of the magnet= .=20 The generators produce hundreds of amperes, at a few millivolts. The generator may be driven by a 5 horsepower motor, and the output may = be=20 consumed by a small voltmeter. The input may be somethiong like 5 HP, an= d=20 the output perhaps 0.05 HP. So the generator is very sub-unity, and stil= l=20 people claim OU. The usual story.... Kromrey (this is still the name I associate with this person, probably=20 incorrectly) had a different version of the story. Working for NASA, and=20 for NASA's money he had built the most advanced generator of this type h= e=20 knew about. It had been very expensive, and required exotic engineering.=20 But the machine had had an efficiency of approximately 300%, so it was=20 clearly overunity. There had been no doubt about this at all. It had in=20 principle been simple to make it self running, but this had not been=20 required, and had not been done. He had been allowed to patent the machi= ne,=20 but the patent had been classified for a number of years. (It is now ope= nly=20 available). There were a lot of things he was still not allowed to talk = about. Therefore he tended to talk in riddles, and hinted at some danger = lurking in the future which might turn earth into a desert planet. This=20 riddletalk was frustrating. There were a couple of chaps around who look= ed=20 like some kind of bodyguards. It was rather spooky.=20 Kromrey (proper name?) did not demonstrate his machine, so there was a l= ack=20 of proof, and I didnt investigate the case further. But he seemed to be = a=20 competent engineer, and could not easily be classified as a crackpot. I wonder what has since become of this man and the invention? Regards, Anders From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 07:05:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id HAA16759; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:01:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:01:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3343D574.DD6 rt66.com> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 08:06:12 -0800 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall rt66.com Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rmforall@rt66.com, drom@vxcern.cern.ch Subject: Schaffer Sci. Am. CF review [schaffer gav.gat.com]: Part I Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TKc5t2.0.l54.kOyGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 3, 1997 Michael Schaffer What is the current scientific thinking on cold fusion? Is there any possible validity to this phenomenon? --Benny Kee Lynnwood, Wash. Eight years ago researchers Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons, then both at the University of Utah, made headlines around the world with their claim to have achieved fusion in a simple tabletop apparatus working at room temperature. Other experimenters failed to replicate their work, however, and most of the scientific community no longer considers cold fusion a real phenomenon. Nevertheless, research continues, and a small but very vocal minority still believes in cold fusion. Michael J. Schaffer, a senior scientist at one of the major U.S. fusion research laboratories (his employer has requested not to be identified), has provided this historical overview, along with a rather moderate assessment current status of cold fusion: "Because cold fusion is still an unresolved and controversial subject that generates strong opinions and passionate debate among scientists, I begin by stating up front that I am a mainstream plasma physicist researching fusion energy. I also read many of the papers published on cold fusion, however. I attended the last three International Conferences on Cold Fusion, and I myself ran two sets of cold fusion experiments, both with no clear evidence of excess power release. Overall, I consider myself to be a fairly neutral observer. "To understand the controversy, it helps to know some basic facts about fusion. Fusion is a nuclear reaction wherein two smaller nuclei join (fuse) to form a new, larger nucleus. When that large nucleus is unstable, it quickly breaks apart and releases energy. The big difficulty is that because the initial nuclei are all positively charged, they are strongly repelled as they approach one another. Therefore, only nuclei having a high kinetic energy approach closely enough to fuse. High-speed nuclei can be made on the earth either by particle accelerators or by extremely high temperatures--on the order of 50 million degrees Celsius or more. In controlled 'magnetic' fusion energy experiments, such as tokamaks and others, a magnetically confined plasma is heated by electromagnetic waves or neutral particle beams. In 'inertial' fusion energy experiments, tiny pellets are compressed and heated by powerful pulsed laser or ion beams. "Cold fusion claims to release measurable energy from fusion reactions at or near room temperature when deuterium is dissolved in a solid, usually palladium metal. The idea, which has its roots in research going back to the 1920s, is that hydrogen and its isotopes can dissolve to such high concentrations in certain solids that the hydrogen nuclei approach closer to one another than even in solid hydrogen. Furthermore, negative electrical charges from the electrons of the solid host partly cancel the repulsion between the nuclei. Early experiments did not detect any signs of fusion, however. Furthermore, modern theoretical calculations show that the proposed effects, while real, are much too small to produce detectable rates of fusion. "Electrochemists Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons decided to revisit room-temperature fusion. Their technique is to pass current through an electrolytic cell consisting of a palladium (Pd) cathode, platinum (Pt) anode and LiOD (a compound of lithium, oxygen and deuterium, or heavy hydrogen) electrolyte in heavy water (water containing deuterium in place of the ordinary hydrogen). The cathodic reaction liberates unbound atoms of deuterium (D), which enter palladium much more rapidly than do deuterium molecules. Under proper conditions, the concentration can build up to 0.9 or more deuterium atoms per palladium atom, at which point the loss of deuterium balances its rate of implantation. Pons and Fleischmann's cells were part of a calorimeter (heat-measuring device), whose temperature rise on a few occasions indicated on the order of 10 percent excess power, that is, about 10 percent more power leaving the cell than electrical power used to run it. Pons and Fleischmann announced their results at a now famous news conference on March 23, 1989. They also thought they had detected gamma radiation characteristic of neutrons passing through water, but these results later had to be retracted. "There was an immediate rush to reproduce the Pons and Fleischmann experiments. A few experimenters reported success, many others failure. Even those who reported success had difficulty reproducing their results. Furthermore, no one was seeing the expected fusion products. The three known D + D reactions are: D + D --> H + T (two deuterium nuclei yield a hydrogen nucleus and tritium, a heavy hydrogen isotope containing two neutrons) or D + D ---> n + 3He (yielding a neutron and helium 3, a light isotope of helium), or D + D ---> 4He + gamma (yielding normal helium 4 and a gamma ray). "The first two reactions are equally probable, and if one watt of nuclear power were produced, the neutron and tritium production would be easy to measure. But they could not be detected; if they were present at all, it was at an extremely low level. The third D + D reaction normally proceeds much more slowly than the first two. Some experiments eventually did report helium 4 production, although great care must be used to avoid contamination by trace amounts of helium normally present in the air. This led many cold fusion researchers to postulate that somehow the third fusion reaction was catalyzed in the palladium. Moreover, it was necessary to postulate the suppression of the gamma radiation, which was never observed. There is no widely accepted theory that might explain such effects, however. Therefore, most of the scientific community concluded that the 'Pons and Fleischmann effect' was experimental error. "Even so, several laboratories continued cold fusion experiments. Excess power remained small and sporadic. If some of the recent reports of new work can be verified, however, the years of effort might be paying off. Pons and Fleischmann now report excess powers of 100 watt (150 percent of the input power) sustained over a 30-day run. The Pons and Fleischmann technique calls for about 20 days of electrolytic conditioning, after which the cell is allowed to heat to boiling for the power run. This technique was reportedly reproduced by a separate group under G. Lonchampt, with support by the French Atomic Energy Commission and in consultation with Pons. Other groups in Japan and Italy are beginning to report excess powers in the 30 to 100 percent range. Experimental results of this magnitude are far beyond ordinary chemistry and point toward the possible existence of some new effect. It might not be 'cold fusion' at all. Whether the effect is a new kind of chemical reaction, a new pathway for nuclear reactions, or something either more surprising or more mundane will only be known after more research. "Different techniques have been tried to produce cold fusion, including electrical discharges, ultrasound and hydrogen in ceramic electrolytes. Here I will highlight only electrolysis using nickel cathodes in alkali salt solutions in ordinary, light water. These cells are much cheaper than ones using heavy water and palladium. The most impressive excess power to date from this class is reported by James Patterson and his company, Clean Energy Technologies CETI), in the U.S. "There are tantalizing new hints about possible products from nuclear reactions. Tadahiko Mizuno's group at the University of Hokkaido in Japan analyzed the components of a Pd-heavy water cell before and after an extended run at high temperature. They reported low concentrations of a range of heavy elements, including calcium, titanium, chromium, manganese, iron, cobalt, copper and zinc. George Miley of the University of Illinois, working with Patterson cells and either nickel or layered nickel-palladium cathodes, also reported a wide range of medium and heavy elements. Similar, but less detailed, results have been related by a few other groups. Production of such heavy nuclei is so unexpected from our present understanding of low-energy nuclear reactions, that extraordinary experimental proof will be needed to convince the scientific community. All available analytical techniques will have to be applied and the results reproduced. CETI recently started lending Patterson cells to independent laboratories to speed up research. "So, what is the current scientific thinking on cold fusion? Frankly, most scientists have not followed the field since the disenchantment of 1989 and 1990. They typically still dismiss cold fusion as experimental error, but most of them are unaware of the newly reported results. Even so, given the extraordinary nature of the claimed cold fusion results, it will take extraordinarily high quality, conclusive data to convince most scientists, unless a compelling theoretical explanation is found first. "Most cold fusion research today is done in Japan. The New Energy and Industrial Technology Development Organization, a government organization, sponsors the New Hydrogen Energy Laboratory in Sapporo. IMRA, a foundation of the Toyota family, sponsors another well-equipped lab in Sapporo, as well as Pons and Fleischmann's facility in France. Several Japanese universities and industries also do cold fusion research." Douglas R.O. Morrison, who was a physicist at CERN for 38 years, is a longtime observer of cold fusion research; he has also attended the International Cold Fusion Conferences. Here is his assessment: " 'You mean it's not dead?' is the incredulous reaction when I say I have been to a cold fusion conference. Almost all scientists and most of the public no longer believe the 1989 claim of Fleischmann and Pons of having solved the world's energy problems by using electrochemistry to fuse deuterium nuclei together at low energy. But true believers soldier on. "The Sixth International Cold Fusion Conference, ICCF-6, was held in October 1996 near Sapporo in northern Japan. It was sponsored by a branch of MITI, which has given some $30 million over four years for cold fusion research; this support was matched by funds and personnel from some 20 major Japanese companies and in cooperation with a dozen Japanese universities. MITI started the New Hydrogen Energy (NHE) laboratory near Sapporo, which visitors have estimated contains some $10-million worth of equipment. "The conference was remarkable for three reports of high-quality Japanese experiments, which contrasted sharply with other reports. The NHE lab of MITI described a large series of experiments devised to check the original claims of Fleischmann and Pons. No excess heat was found. "Toyota established a new organization, called IMRA, that has two laboratories, one near Sapporo and the other near Nice in the south of France; the latter has employed Pons. The second major experimental report came from the IMRA-Japan lab, where researchers built an improved calorimeter, which had no interaction with the surroundings. Twenty-six experiments were tried employing the various systems and tricks that had been suggested to cause excess heat, but no excess heat was observed. Further, the upper limits were very low, +/- 0.23 watts, or 2.3 percent of the input power--far from the cry of 'one watt in, four watts out' and the hundreds of percent increases claimed back in 1989. "Another set of results came from IMRA-Europe, which was presented by Pons. He said that seven experiments were performed; they yielded excess heats of 250 percent, 150 percent, 'variable' and four that gave no excess heat at all. This result might be considered rather meager after five years of work conducted before the 1989 announcement and seven years after, when Pons and Fleischmann were well funded. A high-temperature (near boiling) cell was used at IMRA-Europe, although such a device had been shown to produce greater uncertainties. "Extremely high temperatures are normally needed to obtain practical fusion rates by overcoming the repulsion of the nuclei that are both positively charged. At low energies--that is, at room temperatures--this potential barrier makes fusion reactions have an incredibly low probability of occurring. True believers claim that in the lattice of a metal such as palladium, the rate of deuterium-deuterium fusion is much higher, so all that is needed is to fill the lattice with deuterium. "The third careful Japanese experiment by Jirohta Kasagi and his colleagues at Tohoku University was designed to test this hypothesis. Deuterium ions of a variety of low energies were fired into metals that had been saturated with deuterium; the measured rates of fusion were then compared with expectations. The rates decreased steeply at low energies because of the Coulomb barrier (electrical repulsion), and no unexpected enhancement was observed of the kind that would be needed to justify Fleischmann and Pons's claims. "It might be thought that the three Japanese results would be decisive, but the two summary speakers, Tullio Bressani of Turin and Mike McKubre of SRI International, were optimistic and belittled or ignored them and instead talked of other experiments that were not performed with the same careful controls. Some remarkable new claims were mentioned. James Patterson of Clean Energy Technologies (CETI) was scheduled to speak about his claims that tiny balls coated with metal, generally nickel, could generate energy, but he did not talk. Instead his collaborator, George Miley of the University of Illinois and editor of the journal Fusion Technology, reported that experiments using these balls produced transmutations of the nickel to many other elements even as heavy as lead; he did not worry about the origin of the extra neutrons needed to create lead. "What was not said at ICCF-6 was also interesting. Many people who had reported a sensational first result now no longer speak of it or try to extend it. For instance, on the first day of the ICCF-3 conference in Nagoya, Nippon Telephone and Telegraph (NTT) had issued a press release saying that one of their researchers had solved cold fusion and had reproducible results. NTT promptly saw its shares rise in value by $8 billion--but within a few days, they fell back to their previous level. The experiment was widely criticized but since has neither been mentioned again nor formally withdrawn. "There is one point on which all true believers in cold fusion agree: their results are not reproducible. To most scientists, this implies that cold fusion results are not believable, but true believers suggest that this unpredictability makes them more interesting! "From 1992 onward, many claims were made for cold fusion using normal water instead of heavy water. It is well known that D-D (deuterium-deuterium) fusion has a much higher rate, by many orders of magnitude, than H-H (hydrogen-hydrogen) fusion. In fact, early claims of cold fusion stated that the results must be attributed to fusion because they happened only with deuterium and never with hydrogen, which indeed was used as a control. Also, from 1992 onward, claims of transmutations have been made. One of these was the old alchemists' claim of turning mercury to gold; others claimed small changes in the isotopes. Miley's claim was doubly astonishing, as his claimed transmutations used hydrogen instead of deuterium. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 07:07:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id HAA11664; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:05:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:05:16 -0800 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 15:02:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Project Blue Book, UFOs Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"530gt2.0.7s2.gSyGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings Earthlings, The Pentagon (or is it the Pentacle?) closed its Project Blue Book yesterday saying that their is no evidence for aliens visiting our solar system. Well it's a conspiracy - and if you dare to disagree - you're part of the conspiracy too - so there! May the force be with you, (whatever force you worship) Remi. ....................................................................... Looking forward to the re-release of the Star Wars Trilogy - digitally remastered! The original and the best! (in 35mm cinema format that is, didn't say anything about a certain 60s NSTC format on endless sydication.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 07:32:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id HAA20923; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:29:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:29:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3343DC00.4D94 rt66.com> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 08:34:08 -0800 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall rt66.com Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rmforall@rt66.com, drom@vxcern.cern.ch Subject: Shaffer Sci. Am. CF review: Part II Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Rbsr82.0.g65.-oyGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "If there are so many claims over so many years, some people inevitably wonder if perhaps there just might be something in them. But the cold fusion claims are mutually contradictory; if H-H fusion were to work, then D-D fusion should cause the apparatus to explode. Also, there are more experiments that find no effect than those claiming one, and these negative experiments tend to be more carefully carried out. Some claims can be rejected by other subsequent experiments: Steve Jones of Brigham Young University--originally a rival of Fleischmann and Pons who made somewhat different claims for neutron production--is now a strong opponent of cold fusion and indeed has done experiments showing that in Fleischmann and Pons's open cells, the hydrogen and oxygen gases can mingle and recombine giving out apparent excess heat. If this potential for recombination is blocked, there is no excess heat. "With all this negative evidence, how can Fleischmann, Pons and others continue? The short answer is that true believers can always find something to encourage them, and they can ignore the rest. Cold fusion is much more persistent than previous examples of pathological science, such as polywater, which ended soon after the principal supporters gave up. Here there have been well-organized public relations campaigns. "Initially, in 1989, Pons provided a series of escalating claims, including showing what he claimed was a working cell 'giving off 15 to 20 times the amount of energy that is put into the cell.' It was claimed that it 'could provide boiling water for a cup of tea.' Now there are several people publishing magazines, spreading claims and trying to influence media people who sometimes present their hand-outs without checking. This technique keeps the flame alive. Also some editors publish cold fusion claims in sympathetic journals such as Fusion Technology. They claim that at the next American Nuclear Society meeting in Orlando, to be held June 1 to 5, there will be a cold fusion session featuring a panel discussion with Miley and Patterson. "In another, nonscientific episode, Fleischmann, Pons and Italian researchers Tullio Bressani, Guiliano Preparata and Emilio Del Giudice sued the Italian newspaper La Repubblica, its editor and the science editor, Giovanni Maria Pace, who had written in 1991 that cold fusion was 'scientific fraud.' The decision of the three judges was that this was justified comment, and further they awarded costs to the newspaper. They also expressed the opinion that some of the plaintiffs had lost touch with reality. "What is the future of cold fusion? True believers never give up, and the funding keeps coming in. At first, American and some Russian work was largely funded by the Electric Power Research Industry (EPRI), which spent many millions of dollars, but that support has essentially stopped. Japanese funding seems to be on the decline after ICCF-6. But private investors remain hopeful--they tend to reason that it is worth the odd-million investment if the return on investment is worth billions. They do not appreciate, however, that the likely return is about 10-40--which means that even investing one penny to earn possible billions would be a bad bet. The next cold fusion conference, ICCF-7, with private sponsors, will be held in Vancouver in April 1998. We all hope to be served a cup of cold fusion tea." Robert F. Heeter of the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory is the author of the "Conventional Fusion FAQ" (internet newsgroup sci.physics.fusion) and webmaster of the Fusion Energy Educational Web Site. He responds: "The 'cold fusion' phenomenon, in which the law of conservation of energy is apparently violated when electricity and heat are applied to special systems involving hydrogen isotopes (in water or gaseous form) and particular metals (notably palladium and nickel), defies conventional scientific explanation. All new theories explaining 'cold fusion' effects require large revisions in existing physical theories (one might call them 'miracles'). Scientific skepticism requires that unless the experimental evidence justifies belief in these miracles, we must conclude that experimental errors are being misinterpreted as positive results. "One would normally expect that about half of all careful energy-balance measurements would indicate excess energy, and about half would show an energy deficit, because experimental error spreads the results around the expected outcome. A preponderance of results showing excess energy might indicate something new. But if one is deliberately searching for excess energy, then one may be able to 'optimize' a complicated system to yield large amounts of apparent excess energy by fooling the measurement apparatus somehow. Whether a given excess-heat result represents a physical 'miracle' or an experimental error is very difficult to determine if the amount of excess heat is small or if the fraction of excess power to total input power is low--as is the case in reports of cold fusion. "If indeed miracles are occurring in 'cold fusion,' they are not fusion reactions involving hydrogen isotopes. The inevitable signatures of fusion reactions--in which atomic nuclei combine, thereby releasing a large amount of energy--are combinations of energetic particles (neutrons, positrons and ions) and gamma rays. The direct conversion of fusion energy into heat is not possible because of energy and momentum conservation and the laws of special relativity. Energetic particles and their secondary effects should be easily detectable if the claimed levels of excess power were the result of fusion reactions. But measurements of these fusion signatures have been either nonexistent, inaccurate or orders of magnitude too low. Attempts to explain 'cold fusion' as something other than nuclear fusion require similar miracles supported by similarly weak evidence. "The case for experimental error is supported by the unreliability and lack of independent replication of key results. Furthermore, the nature of the complex systems and measurement equipment involved in 'cold fusion' research is beyond the range of expertise of most researchers involved. "'Cold fusion' resembles the alchemy of the middle ages. The search for truth suffers now, in the quest to convert hydrogen into energy, just as it did 1,000 years ago in the quest to convert lead into gold. The allure of fame and wealth and the natural desire to believe in good news have been corrupting influences on scientific skepticism. So researchers working outside their main areas of professional expertise are even more likely to misinterpret experimental errors as positive results. And it is hard not to be skeptical about a revolutionary new discovery that would so conveniently have such tremendous and immediate economic value. "I entered graduate school wishing to help solve our impending energy crisis, so I studied 'cold fusion' carefully and with an open mind in order to make a wise career choice. I learned that the critical positive results have not been reliably and independently reproduced, and many careful and thorough studies have yielded negative conclusions, although often these unexciting results went unpublished. It is probably impossible to prove that 'cold fusion' is nothing more than the result of misinterpreted experimental errors, but the probability of it being otherwise is low. "Efforts to disprove 'cold fusion' remind me of the O. J. Simpson case--the evidence is clear enough that most people have firm beliefs, yet truly conclusive proof is elusive. But science is not law: when one puts a scientific theory on trial in an experiment, the existing theory is presumed guilty of explaining your observations until it is proven innocent by showing that only a new theory will fit the evidence properly. Large changes in well-established theories require a stronger body of evidence. 'Cold fusion,' if true, requires radical changes in our understanding of energy and matter, but even after eight years of intense effort costing tens of millions of dollars, the evidence remains weak--although apparently the cold fusion conferences in Hawaii, Monte Carlo and elsewhere have been quite lavish. I now doubt 'cold fusion' is really an easy alchemical solution to the world's energy needs." RELATED LINKS: CCF5 Discussion Group An Attempted Replication of the CETI Cold Fusion Experiment Cold Nuclear Fusion Bibliography from Dieter Britz of Aarhus University, a cold-fusion skeptic Cold Fusion Information from Eugene Mallove, a believer U.S. Fusion Energy Sciences Program ("hot" fusion) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 08:09:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id HAA24462; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:57:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:57:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199704031646.LAA11999 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: i3683 csc.dk (I3683), vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:06:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Ang.: Re: Simple OU Device; Ampere Electrodynamics Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199704031226.OAA44054 sdn5.csc.dk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"6NVL81.0.5-5.uDzGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3 Apr 97 at 13:08, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > From: i3683 csc.dk (I3683) > Where do you get "Ampere Electrodynamics" by Graneau, btw? I have > difficulting locating a source of this book. Order directly from the publisher: "Ampere-Neumann Electrodynamics of Metals", 2nd edition, 1994 by Peter Graneau ISBN 0-911767-75-4, 330 pp., $80 (?? not sure of price) Hadronic Press 35246 US 19 North #115 Palm Harbor, FL 34684 USA tel 813-934-9593 fax 813-934-9275 The Hadronic Press catalog lists other interesting-sounding books (mostly theoretical), incl.: "Hertzian Relativistic Electrodynamics and its Associated Mechanics" by C.I. Mocanu (Bucharest Polytechnic Inst.), 1991 ISBN 0-911767-50-9, 680 pp, $100 (??) --------------- Graneau's newer book is more accessible than "Ampere Electrodynamics", and IMHO gives a clearer presentation of their experiments and criticisms against Maxwell-Lorentz electrodynamics in its usual form: "Newtonian Electrodynamics" by Peter Graneau and Neal Graneau World Scientific Publishers, 1996, 288 pp. ISBN 981-02-2284-X (hard) ISBN 981-02-2681-0 (paper) Best regards, -- Bob Flower From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 08:15:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id HAA24551; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:56:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:56:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3343D355.24BB interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 10:57:09 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Torsional waves References: <199704031226.OAA44054 sdn5.csc.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"B4kVm3.0.S_5.vCzGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I3683 wrote: > (snip) > > Does anyone here know about "torsional waves" and where it is described in > Western litterature?? > > Regards > Anders I'm no expert on electromagnetism (I just play one on the Web!), but the normal every-day electromagnetic field can transmit torque, as far as I know. Of course, it's easy to see short range torque transmission with two bar magnets - this type of near-field torque can be felt for tens of centimeters near strong magnets. This type of torque falls as the cube of the separation, I believe. As to long range torque forces, I think electromagnetic waves can and do transmit ANGULAR MOMENTUM just as they transmit linear momentum. The tail of comet Hale-Bopp is being formed by the momentum force of sunlight - I think that a dust cloud in space could also be set to SPIN if the sunlight were POLARIZED. (Hey, Michael Schaffer, is this right?) To get the right scoop on this torque-transmission by light waves, see a good book on advanced electromagnetics. Such forces and torques are minute - if you're looking for a torsional "tractor beam" I think you need to keep looking. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 08:15:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id IAA27552; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:11:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:11:27 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970403161044.006c3ce0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 11:10:44 -0500 To: rmforall rt66.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Comments on Sci. Am. CF review : Part I Resent-Message-ID: <"XlMFa1.0.Lk6.kQzGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:06 AM 4/3/97 -0800, Richard Murray reposted the Scientific American URL which failed to contact people actually working in the field. The ratio of those interviewed who are active and publishing in the field to those who are nonactive or in competing fields (e.g. hot fusion) was low. Thanks to Rich for posting it. Given that, here are a few comments. >What is the current scientific thinking on cold fusion? Is there any >possible validity to this phenomenon? > > --Benny Kee > Lynnwood, Wash. > >Eight years ago researchers Martin Fleischmann and >Stanley Pons, then both at the University of Utah, made >headlines around the world with their claim to have >achieved fusion in a simple tabletop apparatus working at >room temperature. >Other experimenters failed to replicate their work, however, >and most of the scientific community >no longer considers cold fusion a real phenomenon. Many labs that tried to repeat this actually did do so --- including Harwell --- which failed to clarify in its oft referred to publication that one of its cells did get excess heat. Other putative "negative" papers were NOT, but this has been discussed adequately already in the literature. For refs: MELICH, M., W.N. HANSEN, "Some Lessons from 3 Years of Electrochemical Calorimetry", Proceedings of the "Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion" Maui, sponsored by EPRI and the Office of Naval Research, December (1993), published July 1994. SWARTZ, "A METHOD TO IMPROVE ALGORITHMS USED TO DETECT STEADY STATE EXCESS ENTHALPY", M. Swartz, Transactions of Fusion Technology, vol 26, pp 156-159, (Dec. 1994) SWARTZ, "SOME LESSONS FROM OPTICAL EXAMINATION OF the PFC Phase-II CALORIMETRIC CURVE", Vol. 2, Proceedings: "Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion", sponsored by EPRI and the Office of Naval Research, December (1993), published July 1994 ============================================== >Nevertheless, research continues, and a small but very >vocal minority still believes in cold fusion. > A small vocal minority -- from hot fusion, and other competing labs -- continue to disparage despite their failure to either extensively read the literature or to actually do a substantive series of high quality experiments. Science is systematized knowledge. It is not a religion of "believers". This very word is used to belittle those that investigate this field Consistent with this play on words, Scientific American has systematically removed the positive papers which confirmed cold fusion from its summary. This is consistent with their attitude against this technology, but is not consistent with the findings which are slowly percolating into the literature. More information is available at at other sites on the web, and elsewhere, which SCI AM did not list such as the COLD FUSION TIMES home page which is located at URL = http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html ============================================== (zip) >Furthermore, no one was seeing the expected fusion >products. The three known D + D reactions are: > >D + D --> H + T (two deuterium nuclei yield a hydrogen >nucleus and tritium, a heavy hydrogen isotope containing >two neutrons) or > >D + D ---> n + 3He (yielding a neutron and helium 3, a >light isotope of helium), or > >D + D ---> 4He + gamma (yielding normal helium 4 and a >gamma ray). > These were expected for HOT fusion. In fact, the state of one of the above reactions are energetically located MeV above that which is even obtainable in cold fusion. No problem apparently for this relatively unscientific "Scientific" webpost. Those interested in more info, might read "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids", M. Swartz, Fusion Technology, 31, 228-236 (March 1997). Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 08:34:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id IAA29056; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:17:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:17:12 -0800 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:16:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970403111625_1021128340 emout15.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device. Resent-Message-ID: <"d7gOf2.0.q57.6WzGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 4/3/97 2:47:32 AM, Greg Watson wrote: <> Greg, this sounds suspiciously like the Johnson and TOMI demos in which one (without realizing it) pushes up a long but imperceptible magnetic hill, lets go, and is amazed to see something fire across the room and put a hole in the wall, not realizing that the kinetic energy output = the potential energy input. One then dreams of putting it in a circle, buts finds (disappointedly) that when it goes around it never makes it all the way. (Speaking from our own lab experience, ask Scott!). Can you be sure this is not it? Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 08:38:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id IAA00920; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:26:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:26:36 -0800 (PST) Date: 03 Apr 97 11:24:18 EST From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Simple OU Device. Message-ID: <970403162417_76016.2701_JHC86-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"mCGSW.0.FE.vezGp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson says: >>1) NO it is not a April 1 joke.<< I know what it is. It's a little bird with a long neck which keeps bending over to drink water. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 09:12:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id IAA06875; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:50:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:50:29 -0800 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Comments on Sci. Am. CF review : Part I Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:49:48 +0000 Message-ID: <19970403164946.AAA22811 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"0cPRh2.0.Lh1.J_zGp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:10 PM 4/3/97 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >>Other experimenters failed to replicate their work, however, >>and most of the scientific community >>no longer considers cold fusion a real phenomenon. > > (zip) > >>Furthermore, no one was seeing the expected fusion >>products. The three known D + D reactions are: >> >>D + D --> H + T (two deuterium nuclei yield a hydrogen >>nucleus and tritium, a heavy hydrogen isotope containing >>two neutrons) or >> >>D + D ---> n + 3He (yielding a neutron and helium 3, a >>light isotope of helium), or >> >>D + D ---> 4He + gamma (yielding normal helium 4 and a >>gamma ray). >> > > These were expected for HOT fusion. > Even if you filled the "Tokamak" type reactors with neutrons you wouldn't get any reactions to speak of with the above ingredients. That is why Deuterium is used in fission reactors, so why expect D-D reactions in CF? Who's kidding who, about good science? The Mills "Hydrino-Deutrino" would not do any better for that type of reaction either, but, it can do wonders for building heavy elements or fissioning palladium and other metals with Z above about 42. > > Hope that helps. > > Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) > > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 09:19:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id JAA06037; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:02:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:02:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3343E05D.3C0B skylink.net> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 08:52:45 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ang.: Simple OU Device. References: <199704031305.PAA52932 sdn5.csc.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9qkUX1.0.DU1.OA-Gp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I3683 wrote: > Kromrey (this is still the name I associate with this person, probably > incorrectly) had a different version of the story. Working for NASA, and > for NASA's money he had built the most advanced generator of this type he > knew about. It had been very expensive, and required exotic engineering. > But the machine had had an efficiency of approximately 300%, > I wonder what has since become of this man and the invention? The correct name is Trombly (or Trombley?). He invented a homopolar generator, which he claimed operated at an efficiency of 350%. There is a discussion of this in Valone's book "Homopolar Generator Handbook". I don't recall any relationship with NASA. Trombly's generator has some unusual characteristics, including rotation of the entire magnetic circuit, and drawing of current in a completely symmetrical fashion from the rotating disk. It is interesting that a completely symmetrical current, is the same thing that Tesla claimed would result in elimination of back torque in a homopolar machine. Trombly's device was classified in the patent office by the US Navy, due to the "unique brush design". The brush design is unique, and the engineering of the generator is very neat. Trombly is apparently an excellent engineer. One might wonder if this adds credibility to his unusual claim of 350% efficiency. Trombly was later issued a European patent. There is a (very poor) copy of the patent in Valone's book. I don't know where Trombly is now. Rumor is retired somewhere in ski country. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 09:08:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id IAA05353; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:56:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:56:49 -0800 (PST) Date: 03 Apr 97 11:54:16 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Subject: Sci. Am. CF review suggested changes Message-ID: <970403165416_72240.1256_EHB143-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"aEGaa1.0.VJ1.F5-Gp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:schaffer gav.gat.com I gather this is the text from the Sci. Am. home page review of cold fusion, written by our very own Mike Schaffer. This is pretty good, except for the garbage from Morrison. But I'd like to suggest some revisions. This is incorrect: Pons and Fleischmann now report excess powers of 100 watt (150 percent of the input power) sustained over a 30-day run. That should be 250% over a 123-day run. See Proc. ICCF6, p. 92. I would revise the whole sentence, to something like: Pons now reports excess powers of up to 101 watts. In seven experiments, the ratio of input to output ranges from 60 to 250% of input power. Experiments lasted from 47 to 158 days. One experiment produced 294 megajoules from a 3.6 gram cathode. I think this part is confusing: . . . This technique was reportedly reproduced by a separate group under G. Lonchampt, with support by the French Atomic Energy Commission and in consultation with Pons. Other groups in Japan and Italy are beginning to report excess powers in the 30 to 100 percent range. Experimental results of this magnitude are far beyond ordinary chemistry and point toward the possible existence of some new effect. The excess power is not beyond the limits of chemistry by any means. A burning match is a self-sustaining chemical reaction with zero input (infinite percent output). The *energy* of cold fusion is beyond chemistry. When you talk about "30 to 100 percent" a reader might get the impression that the cells produce a third more or maybe twice as much energy as a chemical cell. That would be a marginal effect. In fact, the Pons cell produced 294 megajoules from 3.6 grams of material, or 83,667 MJ per kg. This is two thousand times more energy than an equivalent mass of gasoline could produce, gasoline being the most energy dense common chemical, and just about the best chemical fuel that *can* exist. So, I would rewrite this paragraph along these lines: . . . Other groups in Japan and Italy are beginning to report excess powers in the 30 to 100 percent range, at power levels in the hundreds watts. Experimental results of this magnitude are far beyond experimental error; it would be impossible to miss them, and impossible to mistake 30 watt for 100 watts. Furthermore, the heat continues uninterrupted for very long periods in some cases, to the point where thousands of times more energy is produced by the cells than any chemical cell could produce, even with the best fuel on earth. This proves the existence of some new effect. The excess *energy* is the whole point of cold fusion. Not power, strictly speaking. Of course, large power is good because it is easy to measure. Frankly, percentages confuse the issue and should be avoided, I think. The other day, Huizenga inadvertently walked into a lab where a cold fusion cell was producing excess power. Put in percentage terms, it wasn't so impressive, only 15%. But the absolute power put results beyond argument: 50 watts in, 56 out. And of course the net energy over time added up to astronomically high levels. People like Morrison and Huizenga know that they must never talk about net energy, only power and percentages, because any rational scientist who sees "294 megajoules from a 3.6 gram cathode" will instantly grasp that We are Not in Kansas Anymore. And anyone who claims it is difficult to measure the difference between 50 and 56 watts -- or 30 and 100 watts -- has got to be kidding. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 10:18:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id KAA22010; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 10:06:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 10:06:18 -0800 Date: 03 Apr 97 13:04:08 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Subject: Revised revision Message-ID: <970403180407_72240.1256_EHB83-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"2B6Tm3.0.jN5.O6_Gp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:schaffer gav.gat.com Regarding my message "Sci. Am. CF review suggested changes," let me revise my revision. Referring to Proc. ICCF6, p. 92 I would make it: Pons now reports excess powers of up to 101 watts. In three experiments, the ratio of input to output ranges from 60 to 250% of input power. (Four other experiments produced no excess power). Experiments lasted from 47 to 158 days. One experiment produced 294 megajoules from a 3.6 gram cathode. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 11:28:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id LAA07873; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:21:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:21:14 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970403191948.006b3294 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 14:19:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Comments on Sci. Am. CF review : Part I Resent-Message-ID: <"CnDPB.0.ww1.eC0Hp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:49 PM 4/3/97 +0000,Frederick wrote: >At 04:10 PM 4/3/97 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >>>Furthermore, no one was seeing the expected fusion >>>products. The three known D + D reactions are: >>> >>>D + D --> H + T (two deuterium nuclei yield a hydrogen >>>nucleus and tritium, a heavy hydrogen isotope containing >>>two neutrons) or >>> >>>D + D ---> n + 3He (yielding a neutron and helium 3, a >>>light isotope of helium), or >>> >>>D + D ---> 4He + gamma (yielding normal helium 4 and a >>>gamma ray). >>> >> These were expected for HOT fusion. =fred >Even if you filled the "Tokamak" type reactors with neutrons =fred >you wouldn't get any reactions to speak of =fred with the above ingredients. What are you talking about? If "you wouldn't get any reactions to speak of with the above ingredients", then why was is this discussed at the Sci Am web site? Because these are well known reactions, aren't they? What exactly is your point? ==================================================== >That is why Deuterium is used in fission reactors, so why expect D-D >reactions in CF? > Because it is the fuel which is loaded into the Palladium, Fred as much of the literature has stated. (No wonder you purport to rely on incantations rather than science.) ==================================================== =fred >Who's kidding who, about good science? Who indeed? You apparently once again. Unlike your "light electrons" which clutter up most of the recent science put here, be it vorticies, homopolar generators,or cold fusion, and unlike your spurious claim of 50 keV "thermal" photons (vide infra), cold fusion is not only consistent with good science, but is real. "Compton's work showed scattering with 19.9 keV K-line photons from molybdenum or about 0.62 angstroms. So if you consider anything below 50 keV "soft" and difficult to detect there could be a lot going on at this "thermal" level." ["Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: X-Ray Efficiency, Message-Id: <19970316055432.AAA15585 LOCALNAME>] Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 11:41:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id LAA11740; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:37:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:37:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970403113811.0072e6ac mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 11:38:12 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: PATENTS DO NOT PROVIDE ANY REAL PROTECTION ! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JT0qC2.0.Kt2.xR0Hp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'VE DONE IT, BEEN THERE... Anybody can get a patent, almost NOBODY can afford to defend it in court ! Undefensible patent is USELESS (except maybe for the ego and a resume...) Patents cost money, and even more money if an attorney is involved. They are extremely time consuming and cause large DELAYS in the release of the idea !!! In return they provide no real benefits besides ego boosting ! Patents do not provide protection just by their mere existence, you must willing to defend them in court if you can find and prove that somebody has infringed on your patent, and only if you can afford this legal action. Most of the individuals DO NOT STAND A CHANCE to defend their patents successfully against the resources of a large corporation. Yes MIGHT IS RIGHT and money makes the world go around, that means that ANYBODY WHO IS STRONGER than you can take your idea away leaving you with a useless patent (piece of paper). It is also impossible and totally uneconomical to find and sue everybody who infringes on your patent. Even even if you could do that, the life of the marketable idea would be over by the time you got the infringer to court !!! By the time the patent infringement lawsuit is over, several years later, the product/idea will have been totally exploited by others (just look at the CRT display example !) PATENTS DO NOT PROVIDE ANY REAL PROTECTION ! Furthermore patenting opens you to government censorship (yes! US. Patent Section 35 is a real law) Patents do not market the invention, and they do not cause crowds of investors to beat down your door. All the hard work of developing and producing a marketable product still has to be done. It is the inventors only chance to do it as fast and best as possible beating everybody in the race to market. This is only real advantage and protection an inventor can get. Time provides 10E9 better protection than the patent system ! If you want to be recognized as the first one who created an idea, there are other & better ways of doing it. One is: as much publicity and openness as possible. Another way is gathering 100 personal credible expert witnesses and have them sign a statement in front of notary public that they have seen your idea/product at such and such a time. Using such evidence you will be always able to prove that you were the idea's originator. PATENTING ANYTHING IN 1997 IS A TOTAL WASTE OF SANITY AND MONEY, that could be better spent developing the idea/product !!! For an in depth analysis why it DOESN NOT MAKE SENSE to patent a $ 1,000,000 (million) dollar idea look at the article by a man who has done it all at: http://www.tinaja.com/glib/when2pat.pdf and http://www.tinaja.com/patnt01.html At 06:49 PM 4/3/97 +0100, you wrote: > >The only good argument I've heard for patenting an FE device is to stop >someone else patenting it. >Common wisdom advises a patent to capitalise financially on the >discovery or development made. >I've not tried patenting personally but friends have and they're still >poor a year later and really fed up because of the distraction from what >they really enjoy doing. >Our US friends quote para 35 or somesuch about how the US government can >snatch your ideas for themselves and I'm sure the equivalent exists in >all countries. Here in the UK Cockerill's hovercraft design languished >on a ministry of defence shelf for a number of years before he got it >released. >Whatever your patent rights someone in Taiwan will make it anyway and >they'll be a queue of people wanting to import it. >The airing of these thoughts are of course prompted by Greg's >announcement; keep your back covered mate:-) > >Geoff Greaves From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 13:13:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id MAA32234; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:53:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:53:27 -0800 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Comments on Sci. Am. CF review : Part I Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:52:22 +0000 Message-ID: <19970403205220.AAA27766 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"LEVgy1.0.at7.6Z1Hp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:19 PM 4/3/97 +0000, Mitchell wrote: >At 04:49 PM 4/3/97 +0000,Frederick wrote: > >At 04:10 PM 4/3/97 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >>>Furthermore, no one was seeing the expected fusion > >>>products. The three known D + D reactions are: > >>> > >>>D + D --> H + T (two deuterium nuclei yield a hydrogen > >>>nucleus and tritium, a heavy hydrogen isotope containing > >>>two neutrons) or > >>> > >>>D + D ---> n + 3He (yielding a neutron and helium 3, a > >>>light isotope of helium), or > >>> > >>>D + D ---> 4He + gamma (yielding normal helium 4 and a > >>>gamma ray). > >>> > >>> These were expected for HOT fusion. > > > =fred >Even if you filled the "Tokamak" type reactors with neutrons > =fred >you wouldn't get any reactions to speak of > =fred with the above ingredients. > > > What are you talking about? > If "you wouldn't get any reactions to speak > of with the above ingredients", > then why was is this discussed at the Sci Am web site? > > Because these are well known reactions, aren't they? Of course they are well known reactions Mitchell. And for over forty years Hot Fusion scientists have been "Wondering in the Wilderness" trying to get over the 26 newton repulsive force at 3 Fermi separation, F = k*q^2/r^2, that exists between two deuterons of +q except when "QM tunneling" occasionally lowers that potential-force barrier. The point with the neutrons is that the reaction cross section with a Deuteron is about the same as a D-D reaction. Something related to CF is lowering that potential barrier in the Hot Fusion reactions and right or wrong I believe that it a negatively charged particle substantially less massive than an electron that can be "absorbed" by a proton or deuteron and orbit them at a radius of a few fermi thus making a small neutral particle that allows this so-called QM Tunneling. There are adequate numbers of residual Nitrogen and Oxygen atoms-molecules left in the CTR devices, ie., "Tokamaks" to allow creation of light electron-positron pairs that give the tantalizing N-Tau results that have kept the HOT Fusion quest alive for 40 years. > > What exactly is your point? My point is that Nature makes these particle pairs and that they exist all over the place and the "Sporadic" CF, Yusmar, Ultrasound, Microcavitation,and whatever other hydrogenous material effects including the Mills "Hydrino-Deutrino claim is the result of the Cheshire Cat concentration of these entities. > > > ==================================================== > >>That is why Deuterium is used in fission reactors, so why expect D-D >>reactions in CF? >> > > Because it is the fuel which is loaded into the Palladium, Fred >as much of the literature has stated. > (No wonder you purport to rely on incantations rather than science. Sorry if I offended you Mitchell. That was meant as a good natured chide. > > > ==================================================== > > Unlike your "light electrons" which clutter up most of the recent >science put here, be it vorticies, homopolar generators,or cold fusion, > > and unlike your spurious claim of 50 keV "thermal" photons (vide infra), > cold fusion is not only consistent with good science, but is real. Of course it is real or we wouldn't be trying to pin down why-how it is real, would we? I've been pursuing what really takes place in QM Tunnelling for over a Quarter of a Century. There is something going on there that is probably going to tie Hot and Cold Fusion, and all of the related effects together. We know from simple "orbital mechanics" that it cannot be the "regular electron". However, a negative perticle with a mass substantially less than the electron can gain relativistic mass equal to the rest mass of the electron and go into orbit at a few Fermi and if Hal Putoff's theory that ZPE will "replace" the synchrotron radiation loss, then the "Hydrino-Deutrino created will tie it all together, spite of what you, or I, think. > > > "Compton's work showed scattering with 19.9 keV > K-line photons from molybdenum > or about 0.62 angstroms. So if you consider > anything below 50 keV "soft" and > difficult to detect there could be a lot going > on at this "thermal" level." > ["Frederick J. Sparber" > > Subject: Re: X-Ray Efficiency, > Message-Id: <19970316055432.AAA15585 LOCALNAME>] > > > Hope that helps. > > Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) > > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 14:13:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id OAA19726; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 14:04:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 14:04:54 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 14:06:39 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sci. Am. CF review suggested changes Resent-Message-ID: <"gZ_WU3.0.-p4.5c2Hp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I gather this is the text from the Sci. Am. home page review of cold fusion, >written by our very own Mike Schaffer. This is pretty good, except for the >garbage from Morrison. But I'd like to suggest some revisions. This is >incorrect: > > Pons and Fleischmann now report excess powers of 100 watt (150 percent > of the input power) sustained over a 30-day run. > >That should be 250% over a 123-day run. See Proc. ICCF6, p. 92. I did read my Proc. ICCF6. 250 W is TOTAL output; EXCESS is 150 W. This high excess level was sustained for only about 30 days; it was lower the rest of the run. >I would revise... Yes, I would have liked to have said much more. However, I had a 2-page limit. Also, I didn't know Morrison and Heeter would be posting, or I might have written a bit differently. >net energy, only power and percentages, because any rational scientist who >sees "294 megajoules from a 3.6 gram cathode" will instantly grasp that We >are Not in Kansas Anymore. Point taken. I should have made the energy point more clearly. >>>Furthermore, no one was seeing the expected fusion >>>products. The three known D + D reactions are: >>> >>>D + D --> H + T (two deuterium nuclei yield a hydrogen I think it was important to put in some thermonuclear fusion background; otherwise the average reader will not understand why there might be reason for a controversy. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 14:38:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id OAA29227; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 14:14:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 14:14:54 -0800 (PST) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 14:05:08 PST8PDT Subject: stress on loaded CF cathodes Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <2F36E35259 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"4VQZL.0.a87.Rl2Hp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings Vortex, I've got a basic question regarding loaded CF cathodes. What experiments have been done trying to get fusion from loaded cathodes by manipulating them physically after loading has been done? Such as stressing the metal by bending, heating, cooling, applying shock, or doing some other type of messing around with the lattice? Getting so much hydrogen so close together just makes ya want to grab a hammer and MAKE the stuff fuse! :-) Slowly adding hydrogen atoms one by one can't be the last word in getting them close together, can it? Sorry if everyone here knows the answer but me, but I'd really like to know if such experiments have been done and what the results were. JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 15:28:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id PAA11242; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 15:21:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 15:21:34 -0800 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:18:00 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Kaas Message-Id: <199704032318.RAA08602 jupiter.igi.com> Subject: FW: FW: stress on loaded CF cathodes To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: joe igi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-MD5: pmyxa+l0mPIIjJwpgWrYIQ== Resent-Message-ID: <"zK4Pi1.0.Wl2.zj3Hp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Greetings Vortex, >I've got a basic question regarding loaded CF cathodes. What >experiments have been done trying to get fusion from loaded cathodes >by manipulating them physically after loading has been done? Such as >stressing the metal by bending, heating, cooling, applying shock, or doing > some other type of messing around with the lattice? Getting so much hydrogen > so close together just makes ya want to grab a hammer and MAKE the stuff >fuse! :-) Slowly adding hydrogen atoms one by one can't be the last >word in getting them close together, can it? Sorry if everyone here knows >the answer but me, but I'd really like to know if such experiments >have been done and what the results were. > >JAY OLSON I would like to add another possibility.... Use the loaded cathode as fuel for the hot fusion project using crossing lasers. It seems to me that a loaded cathode would be a more reliable fuel source than a hydrogen gas pellet JOE KAAS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 17:01:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id QAA13658; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:56:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:56:26 -0800 Date: 03 Apr 97 19:55:04 EST From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: stress on loaded CF cathodes Message-ID: <970404005503_76016.2701_JHC78-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"TlbUH3.0.KL3.v65Hp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jay Olson asks: >> What experiments have been done trying to get fusion from loaded cathodes by manipulating them physically after loading has been done?<< Or electrical impulses (some piezoelectric effect)? What is the effect of warping the crystal lattice? I've wondered the same. Does hydrogen embrittlement during plating of steel have it's roots in CF? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 17:14:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id RAA15779; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:05:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:05:51 -0800 X-Sender: josephnewman earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:08:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: PATENTS DO NOT PROVIDE ANY REAL PROTECTION? Resent-Message-ID: <"i3FjK.0.Ms3.kF5Hp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Epitaxy writes: >I'VE DONE IT, BEEN THERE... > > >Anybody can get a patent, almost NOBODY can afford to defend it in court ! > >Undefensible patent is USELESS (except maybe for the ego and a resume...) > >Patents cost money, and even more money if an attorney is involved. They snip--- Well.... speaking frankly, one would assume by virtue of the words above that Joseph Newman is therefore not "anybody." I've seen firsthand his massive and amazing struggle to get a patent -- and rest assured that his efforts only serve to underscore the injustice ("criminal injustice" in the opinion of one Congressman) practiced by certain PTO officials. I suppose one can either accept the unjust patent system as it is presently constituted, or endeavor to change it. Joseph Newman has chosen the later route. He knew 17 years ago that it would more than likely be a long and arduous struggle --- but then I've never known him (for better or worse) to select the easy path. Speaking only for myself -- I am generally a bit more pragmatic -- but I must nevertheless respect Joe for his strong position on this issue.....I can only hope that 1) his actions will be justified in the long run and 2) the long run will be as short as possible (one's lifetime would be "nice"!). And Epitaxy, I don't doubt for a moment your belief in your position (based upon your inputs) that patenting anything is a waste of time ... so I am not trying to take you to task for your opinion --- I completely respect your right to your opinion. However, I have been present when corporate executives have expressed great interest in Joseph Newman's technology and have told him (on several occasions to which I was a witness): "Please contact us when you have secured your patent rights." Now you or I or anyone else can question their underlying _movtives_ for their having made this statement. But this is besides the point: I cannot read their minds. What I do know for a fact is that this statement was repeatedly made to Joseph Newman -- whatever their underlying reason(s). Joseph Newman's position: Patent Office officials must be held accountable for their actions (or lack thereof); my position: either scrap the PTO entirely, or insist that it live up to the expectations of its creators. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "In speaking of the Energy of the field, however, I wish to be understood literally. All energy is the same as mechanical energy, whether it exists in the form of motion or in that of elasticity, or in any other form. The energy in electromagnetic phenomena is _mechanical_ energy." --- JAMES CLERK MAXWELL From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 18:03:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id RAA06553; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:46:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:46:09 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:47:59 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FW: FW: stress on loaded CF cathodes Resent-Message-ID: <"FfUra.0.Ic1.Wr5Hp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] > > I would like to add another possibility.... Use the loaded cathode >as fuel for the hot fusion project using crossing lasers. It seems to me >that >a loaded cathode would be a more reliable fuel source than a >hydrogen gas >pellet > >JOE KAAS All that metal, with high-charge nuclei and lots of electrons to go with them, would radiate far more x-ray (bremsstrahlung) power than any fusion reaction could produce. Controlled thermonuclear fusion power is limited to the first few elements of the periodic table. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 18:04:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id RAA23140; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:53:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:53:00 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Hydrgn.. Ah, now we see how the engineer thinks! Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 01:52:01 +0000 Message-ID: <19970404015159.AAA24707 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"hPs0m3.0.Qf5.ux5Hp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:48 AM 4/3/97 +0000, Remi wrote: >John and Frederick, > >On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >> Don't see such down-home practicality in texts these days John. I have >> a college level chemistry text (Kahlenberg 1907)that I got ideas from >> while at Sandia Labs in the 50s that amazed the the materials science >> and chemists. My 1947 edition Britannnica will outshine my 1993 edition >> and the 95 Britannica CD ROM in many areas. >> > >So the engineer is a practical man, gets his hands dirty, observant, >encyclopedic array of techniques - not necessarily textbook. Textbooks >tend to be written by an ivory towered clique, sad fact is cliques subject >to the vaguries of fashion, tradition and perceived wisdom. > >Thank God for the whistle blower and the can-do man! >Remi. > > Alfred Nobel was a pragmatist, thats why he could set up an award system. Albert Einstein and those that received the prize before him got it for their work in practical physics. Eistein didn't get the prize for his "wild theories", but for a very practical experiment relating to the photo-electric effect. :-) After that, he got retro-active fame and could do no wrong. :-) Shades of ELVIS! Omnipotent infallibility out of the labours and good will of a Swedish "engineer". Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 18:48:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA17719; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:35:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:35:37 -0800 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: FW: FW: stress on loaded CF cathodes Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 02:34:52 +0000 Message-ID: <19970404023451.AAA19078 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"T9Fz71.0.nK4.uZ6Hp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:47 AM 4/4/97 +0000,Michael Schaffer wrote: >[snip] >> >> I would like to add another possibility.... Use the loaded cathode >>as fuel for the hot fusion project using crossing lasers. It seems to me >>that >a loaded cathode would be a more reliable fuel source than a >>hydrogen gas >pellet >> >>JOE KAAS > >All that metal, with high-charge nuclei and lots of electrons to go with >them, would radiate far more x-ray (bremsstrahlung) power than any fusion >reaction could produce. Controlled thermonuclear fusion power is limited >to the first few elements of the periodic table. > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > > Yeah, but if you went to proton-deuterium-lithium 7 or proton-deuterium-boron 10 (boranes and a boride first-wall reactor) as Cockcroft and Walton did early in the nuclear transmutation game, with their modest proton-deuteron particle accelerator, you probably would see Hot Fusion way ahead of the D-T, D-D, and D-He3 yields, and a lot cleaner system too. As I said earlier, when you are going for reactions of a microbarn in cross section which is only an order of magnitude or so above the thermal neutron capture cross section for deuterons, I think someone is barking up the wrong tree, (just because the H-Bomb works). Then again, if they are so damn sure of how it works, why do they keep testing them? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 19:41:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA08243; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 19:29:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 19:29:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970404032823.007649e0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 22:28:23 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: FW: FW: stress on loaded CF cathodes Resent-Message-ID: <"YcJkd3.0.g02.ZM7Hp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:47 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Michael J. Schaffer wrote: >> >> "I would like to add another possibility.... Use the loaded cathode >>as fuel for the hot fusion project using crossing lasers. It seems to me >>that >a loaded cathode would be a more reliable fuel source than a >>hydrogen gas >pellet" >>JOE KAAS > >All that metal, with high-charge nuclei and lots of electrons to go with >them, would radiate far more x-ray (bremsstrahlung) power than any fusion >reaction could produce. It seems that Joe asked a reasonable question. Where is your data to support your hand-wave dismissal of Joe Kaas' question, Michael? Bremsstrahlung is from decelleration and is German for "braking radiation". Is that not true? It is seen when moving electrons hit targets. It is classic for target/beam experiments, but has NOT been characteristic of cold fusion experiments. Perhaps you also have data to the contrary to support your bremststrahlung-limiting hypothesis? Therefore, please state where it comes in this case so that it "would radiate far more x-ray (bremsstrahlung) power than any fusion reaction could produce". Also, for energetic electrons the energy loss by radiation excess the that by ionization interactions only above circa 50 MeV, and is called inner bremsstrahllung to distinguish it. Is this the regime to which you refer? Michael, that is twice the thermal energies involved in putative helium-4 formation in cf systems which is circa 21 MeV. There is not enough energy to get to neutron-Helium-3 disintigration with cold fusion because it is an MeV higher. Methinks the 50 MeV is out of the question in such cold systems, but if you wish to mathematically convince me, please begin on this, too. =============================================== >Controlled thermonuclear fusion power is limited >to the first few elements of the periodic table. > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > Joe Kaas may have meant hydrogen fusion which is in the first row as you mention. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 20:30:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA16257; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:27:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:27:30 -0800 Message-ID: <33448072.70FA microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 13:45:46 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device. References: <970403162417_76016.2701_JHC86-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IPtnc2.0.tz3.nC8Hp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > Greg Watson says: > > >>1) NO it is not a April 1 joke.<< > > I know what it is. It's a little bird with a long neck which keeps bending over > to drink water. > > Terry Hi Terry, You are getting colder. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 20:34:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA16491; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:23:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:23:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3344803F.7F6F microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 13:44:55 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: newman-l emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device. References: <970403111625_1021128340 emout15.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"si6-p3.0.S14.h88Hp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Puthoff aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/3/97 2:47:32 AM, Greg Watson wrote: > > < kinetic energy in a one shot demo>> > > Greg, this sounds suspiciously like the Johnson and TOMI demos in which one > (without realizing it) pushes up a long but imperceptible magnetic hill, lets > go, and is amazed to see something fire across the room and put a hole in the > wall, not realizing that the kinetic energy output = the potential energy > input. One then dreams of putting it in a circle, buts finds > (disappointedly) that when it goes around it never makes it all the way. > (Speaking from our own lab experience, ask Scott!). > > Can you be sure this is not it? > > Hal Puthoff Hi Hal. I am fully aware of the characteristics of magnetic gates. I have tried to help Jean-Louis and others understand the Bendi gate tests are fully conservative. Your hill description is a very good, clear and simple example of how these devices seem to produce excess energy but are in fact really fully conservative. It is not a Johnson or Tomi like device. I have, like you guys, played with and simulated these devices. They are not OU. To answer your final question, I am 99.9% sure the energy gain is real and quite large. I am now working on a closed loop model. Should know by early tomorrow. I don't expect to get much sleep. It was a pity, I didn't have a video camera when my patent attorney watched the single shot demo. His facial expressions really told the story. It took him about 0.5 seconds to understand what he had seem and 2 minutes to speek. I have known him as a friend and associate for many years. We served together on various SA Gov advisory panels. He is very knowledgeable is this field. His staff PHD looked at it and came up with several attempts to explain it could not work. Seems he had a problem with his eyes. He left saying "Close the loop". I agreeeded. I will keep all you informed as much as I can. These posts are to be incorporated into my lab log. If you don't want a post in the log, please say so and I will respect your wishes. Thanks for all the good wishes and support. Bye for now. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 20:39:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA17554; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:31:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:31:30 -0800 (PST) Date: 03 Apr 97 23:29:22 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Stress on loaded CF cathodes Message-ID: <970404042922_72240.1256_EHB81-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Q9zmv3.0.CI4.WG8Hp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Jay Olson asks about stressing or banging loaded cathodes to trigger a CF reaction. This is an important area, and I think it has been neglected. Crude methods were tested early on. I recall something about Russians shooting bullets into cathodes. Normally, people try to prevent cracking, warping, and other gross changes to the cathode from excessive stress. NTT did some great work with stressed cathodes years ago. I don't what they are up to now. They got large busts of heat and neutrons. If you include electromigration as a form of "stressing," then this is a cutting edge technique, especially in Italy. See my review of ICCF6, on my home page or in I.E. Heat is a critical trigger for cold fusion. Once a cathode is loaded, you can often jump start it with a heat pulse. Conversely, if you keep the cathode cooled (somewhere below 60 to 80 deg C), you will probably prevent the reaction. I have no idea why a heat pulse works, but perhaps it has something to do with stressing the cathode with uneven thermal expansion. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 21:14:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA23460; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:11:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:11:29 -0800 (PST) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:10:25 PST8PDT Subject: Re: Stress on loaded CF cathodes Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <364BFF4872 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"CYt5W2.0.Uk5._r8Hp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Heat is a critical trigger for cold fusion. Once a cathode is loaded, you > can often jump start it with a heat pulse. Conversely, if you keep the > cathode cooled (somewhere below 60 to 80 deg C), you will probably prevent > the reaction. I have no idea why a heat pulse works, but perhaps it > has something to do with stressing the cathode with uneven thermal expansion. > > - Jed Thanks Jed. Hmm... I find the term "heat pulse" interesting. Does this mean that if a cathode is warmed gradually, the effects on the reaction are not as great as if it is suddenly heated? Perhaps this could be explained by saying that if a loaded cathode is gradually heated, the lattice will have time to adjust to its new thermally expanded position without jarring of hydrogen atoms. When a "heat pulse" is used, the rapidly re-arranging lattice bumps the hydrogen atoms around so from time to time they are close enough to fuse. Perhaps the idea put forward by Joe Kaas of hitting loaded cathodes with lasers would be just the thing. We probably wouldn't have to vaporize the cathode or anything that drastic, only assure that the temperature change is as rapid as possible. Maby start out freezing the cathode and then heating it rapidly would be even better. Anyway, just the ramblings of a sophomore physics student. No need to take it seriously. JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 22:13:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA00334; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 22:11:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 22:11:55 -0800 (PST) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 01:10:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970404011058_-1503511888 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, neotech xbn.shore.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re : Re: Simple OU Device. Resent-Message-ID: <"bm_PI1.0.15.dk9Hp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 04/04/1997 05:39:38 , you wrote : << Suj : Re: Simple OU Device. Date : 04/04/1997 05:39:38 From: gwatson microtronics.com.au (Greg Watson) Hi Hal. I am fully aware of the characteristics of magnetic gates. I have tried to help Jean-Louis and others understand the Bendi gate tests are fully conservative. Your hill description is a very good, clear and simple example of how these devices seem to produce excess energy but are in fact really fully conservative. >> Hi Greg, Yes, I have really appreciated your help, your QField simulations are very helpfull, thank you very much. May your Quest Of Overunity find its way, SOON.... :-) Good Luck, Greg, Sincerely, Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm Automatic links: Home_Page Send_E-mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 23:22:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA14683; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 23:19:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 23:19:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970403232023.0101f698 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 23:20:24 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: Simple OU Device. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xQlhT1.0.Kb3.EkAHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey guys, I have talked to Greg Watson today and he seems to be pretty sure he is onto something. If you have corresponded with him on this list, you will know that he is a knowledgable, credible "nuts&bolts" person, that will not be deceived by the "little bird with a long neck which keeps bending over to drink water" or the common "up the long hill..." mistake. His prototype doesn't try to create energy from nothing, but attempts to harness the basic forces existing in matter in a way that hasn't been tried before. We already do similar things by burning coal, gasoline, uranium, etc... All of these methods extract the energy from electrons (chemical bonds) or the nucleus itself. He might have found another way to cleanly accomplish this energy extraction from matter. Greg is working on closing the loop as I am writing this, and I am expecting a post from him to this list on this issue tomorrow. >From the details he has told me, his failure to close the loop would raise as many questions as his success ! Once again, Greg is not an easily deceivable person, and I don't think he is putting us on. You should watch his progress closely At 01:45 PM 4/4/97 +0930, you wrote: >Terry Blanton wrote: >> >> Greg Watson says: >> >> >>1) NO it is not a April 1 joke.<< >> >> I know what it is. It's a little bird with a long neck which keeps bending over >> to drink water. >> >> Terry >Hi Terry, > >You are getting colder. > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > 61 18 833 461 Mobile > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 02:22:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA15692; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 02:11:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 02:11:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970404084118.0066c734 sparc1> X-Sender: kennel sparc1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 17:41:18 +0900 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Elliot Kennel Subject: RE: Stress on loaded CF cathodes Resent-Message-ID: <"cpkep2.0.dp3.ZDDHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Concerning the effects of strain and shock on cold fusion cathodes, probably the world's expert in that area is Andrei G. Lipson of the Institute of Physical Chemistry in Moscow (but who has the desk across from me for the next year or so). There are many claims in the literature, and we are hoping to verify them in front of our detectors here. Thus far we've done some experiments, but the results are sufficiently obtuse that I can't even explain them to myself, never mind to our humble group. But please give us time... Here are some of the original papers in this area (most of which predate Pons and Fleischmann, BTW): 1. V. A. Kluev, A. G. Lipson, B. V. Derjaguin et. al. "High energy processes accompanying the fracture of solids," Sov. Tech. Phys. Lett Vol. 12, p. 551 (1986). 2. B. V. Derjaguin, V. A. Kluev, A. G. Lipson, Yu. P. Toporov, "On the possibility of nuclear reactions under mechanical fracture of solids." Kolloid. journal, Plenum Publishing Corp Vol. 48, No 1, p. 8 (1986). 3. B. V. Derjaguin, A. G. Lipson, V. A. Kluev, D. M. Sakov, Y. P. Toporov. "Titanium fracture yields neutrons?" Nature, Vol. 341, p. 492 (1989). Elliot Kennel Sapporo Japan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 02:32:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA19670; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 02:29:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 02:29:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3344D710.2240 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 19:55:20 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PATENTS DO NOT PROVIDE ANY REAL PROTECTION ! References: <199704040719.XAA08382 mx2.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hmENi2.0.Dp4.lVDHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Johnny Feelgood wrote: > > >Patents cost money, and even more money if an attorney is involved. They > >are extremely time consuming and cause large DELAYS in the release of the > >idea !!! In return they provide no real benefits besides ego boosting ! I WILL release the idea ASAP! A provisional patent will be filed with-in 2 weeks. > >For an in depth analysis why it DOESN NOT MAKE SENSE to patent a $ > >1,000,000 (million) dollar idea look at the article by a man who has done > >it all at: > >http://www.tinaja.com/glib/when2pat.pdf > >and > >http://www.tinaja.com/patnt01.html > >... While patents have problems, they also have advantages. The bottom line is what I want from the patent and its not to become mega rich or mega powerfull. I do want retain some control to ensure the idea is not lost or the end user benefit never happening. > I have said this before, but I think its time for me to say it again: > Why not use the SHAREWARE scheme? Ignore the patent alltogether! If its > really is a O/U-device, then it would most probably be something that will > be either stolen by the government or maffia. I think you have been watching too many X files or listening to too many fishing stories about the one that got away. The world runs on profit. If an idea can reduce end user cost, increase end use benefit, reduce prime provider cost and increase bottom line profit, it will never die. Profit rules. > If you on the otherhand give it out with a note saying something like this: > "Dont sell this claiming its yours, postages is okay to charge for. If > you think this information is valuable for you, then I suggest you to send > me a amount of money to me at the following adress: ..." > > 10,000+ friends is much much more valuable that a piece of paper from the > patent office! Our society is based on many such pieces of paper. You might as well say that your car rego, bank statement or house ownership is also not worth the paper it's written on. Societies need structure. No ownership of property, no western society. I don't really believe its the best way, but its what we have at the moment and we must try to work with-in the bounds WE have so set. > I propose that information along with all other natural resources are not > to be owned by anybody but the nature itself! We humans are only allowed > to administer, the natural resources with the best kind of care. We don't seem to have done such a crash hot job so far. > exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet! > mailto:JohnnyFG algonet.se > http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm Hi Johnny, Thanks for the comments. Hope you value by additions. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 02:34:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA20058; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 02:31:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 02:31:35 -0800 (PST) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:30:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970404053033_1750432955 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Scalar Waves Simulator program Resent-Message-ID: <"Qy5R_3.0.Bv4.3YDHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Information Update on "The Quest For Overunity " - QFO ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Dear All, I have developped a software program which simulate waves interferences and how scalar waves may be generated. This SCALAR WAVES PROGRAM which show to you scalar waves as you can see on an oscilloscope. This program is in zipped format (SCALSIM.ZIP). Its run on a PC under windows 95, and you can distribute this program freely. You can download this program from my web, I give you the direct link : http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/scalsim.htm I look forward to receive your comments and feedback soon, Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm Automatic links: Home_Page Send_E-mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 03:10:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA06519; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 02:40:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 02:40:33 -0800 Message-ID: <01BC4095.2323E130 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: question about magnets Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 01:11:27 -0800 Encoding: 30 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"SG9z62.0.Wb1.VgDHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since Greg probably has us all thinking magnetics now, it seems like a good time to ask this question. I think this may be like the "magnetic gate", where you push the weight up a long easy slope then push it over the edge and see it full of energy. But just in case: say you have two bar magnets next to each other, opposite poles together like this: SXXXXXXXN NXXXXXXXS Measure the energy (E1) it takes to rotate one 180 degrees with respect to the other, to get it so it looks like this: NXXXXXXXS NXXXXXXXS They're going to repel while you do that rotation; measure the energy output from the repelling force (E2). Now, while they are far apart, rotate them back again, measuring the energy used (E3). They now attract; let them fall together, measuring the energy output (E4). Question: does E1+E3 = E2+E4? Dan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 05:19:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA00702; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:10:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:10:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970404130949.00a81c94 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 08:09:49 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: RE: Stress on loaded CF cathodes Resent-Message-ID: <"rUORO.0.uA.TtFHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:41 PM 4/4/97 +0900, you wrote: > >Concerning the effects of strain and shock on cold fusion cathodes, probably >the world's expert in that area is Andrei G. Lipson of the Institute of >Physical Chemistry in Moscow (but who has the desk across from me for the >next year or so). > There are many claims in the literature, and we are hoping to verify >them in front of our detectors here. Thus far we've done some experiments, >but the results are sufficiently obtuse that I can't even explain them to >myself, never mind to our humble group. But please give us time... > Here are some of the original papers in this area (most of which >predate Pons and Fleischmann, BTW): > >1. V. A. Kluev, A. G. Lipson, B. V. Derjaguin et. al. "High energy >processes accompanying the fracture of solids," Sov. Tech. Phys. Lett Vol. >12, p. 551 (1986). >2. B. V. Derjaguin, V. A. Kluev, A. G. Lipson, Yu. P. Toporov, "On the >possibility of nuclear reactions under mechanical fracture of solids." >Kolloid. journal, Plenum Publishing Corp Vol. 48, No 1, p. 8 (1986). >3. B. V. Derjaguin, A. G. Lipson, V. A. Kluev, D. M. Sakov, Y. P. Toporov. >"Titanium fracture yields neutrons?" Nature, Vol. 341, p. 492 (1989). > > >Elliot Kennel >Sapporo Japan > > Elliot, One problem is that fracture generates new surfaces which require energy as well as create new asperities, etc. Are you considering BOTH aspects of the de novo surfaces? Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 05:19:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA28935; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:11:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:11:56 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970404131105.00752c68 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 08:11:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Stress on loaded CF cathodes Resent-Message-ID: <"Tjxup2.0.z37.RuFHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:29 PM 4/3/97 EST, Jed wrote: >Jay Olson asks about stressing or banging loaded cathodes to trigger a CF >reaction. This is an important area, and I think it has been neglected. > ,,,,, > >Heat is a critical trigger for cold fusion. Once a cathode is loaded, you >can often jump start it with a heat pulse. Conversely, if you keep the >cathode cooled (somewhere below 60 to 80 deg C), you will probably prevent >the reaction. I have no idea why a heat pulse works, but perhaps it >has something to do with stressing the cathode with uneven thermal expansion. > The idea that heat triggers may be due to "positive feedback" as discussed in M. Swartz, "Catastrophic Active Medium Hypothesis of Cold Fusion", Vol. 4, Proceedings: "Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion", sponsored by EPRI and the Office of Naval Research, December (1994) presented in 1993. At least two types of positive feedback in select fully hydrided metals were presented. The catastrophic active medium (CAM) theory hypothesizes a two-stage system for cold fusion that ends with the production of the cracks which absorb and dissipate, rather than create, the energy required to activate the desired reactions. Although get mentions uneven thermal expansion, the theory is more complicated and involves desaturation, optical phonons, and deuteron transport. It appears to have been confirmed by P+F (Cent. Sci., IMRA Europe SA, Valbonne, France), "Calibration of the Pd-D2O System: Effects of Procedure and Positive Feedback," J. Chim. Phys. Phys.-Chim. Biol., vol 93, no 4, (1996), pg 711-730. Both papers have been discussed elsewhere including issue volume 4 number 4 of the COLD FUSION TIMES. A summary, some additional info, and the desaturation curve and its derivations is presented in "Hydrogen Redistribution by Catastrophic Desorption in Select Transition Metals", M. Swarz, J. New Energy, 1, 4, 26-33 (1997). Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 05:35:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA02512; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:32:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:32:59 -0800 (PST) Date: 04 Apr 97 08:30:01 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Bravo! PPPL closing Message-ID: <970404133000_72240.1256_EHB123-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"lcjT11.0.8d.9CGHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Here is something to celebrate. On April 4, the New York Times reported that the "mighty fusion test reactor at the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory was being shut down yesterday for the last time." Let us hope so, but I wish we could drive a stake through its heart. There is bad news too: Even though the reactor is closing down, only 150 to 200 of the remaining 500 employees are being fired. The remaining people are building a smaller test reactor scheduled to be complete in 1999. The Times says the PPPL "set a record" in 1994 by producing 10.7 MW for about one second. (Actually, looking at the graph I would say it was more like 0.7 seconds.) Even 10.7 MJ is a pathetic joke. It is only 4% the energy Pons produced with palladium cathode ten centimeters long! Coincidentally, the founder of PPPL, Dr. Lyman Spitzer, died on Monday. The March issue of Physics Today published letters from prominent critics of the hot fusion program, including J. A. Krumhansl of Cornell, former president of the American Physical Society, and W. Parkins, who wrote: "it is not logical to continue to divert a substantial fraction of our physical sciences resources to the hopeless objective of fusion power." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 05:52:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA02462; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:51:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:51:25 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:50:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970404085048_1519272994 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Upadhyay in J.I.T and J.I.E.T.E. Resent-Message-ID: <"7EfG1.0.Oc.STGHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On March 28, Anders Heerfordt posted some information about publications by C. S. Upadhyay: "Some publications: J.I.E. (Raj. State Cenre), 20, May 1979, 11-16 J.I.E. (Raj. State Centre), 27, April 1988, 47-51 Thesis, University of London, England, 1961 J.I.E.T.E, Vol 35, No 5, sept-Oct 1989" Does Anders or any other Vortexian know what the abbreviations J.I.E or J.I.E.T.E. stand for? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 06:34:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA06981; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 06:16:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 06:16:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <01BC40C8.1FB62980 ip61.ts2.phx.inficad.com> From: Reed Huish To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: Teleportation Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 19:11:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"E3Caz.0._i1.aqGHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Information on IBM's research into teleportation: http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ - Reed Huish Zenergy Corporation http://zenergy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 07:47:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA18729; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 07:25:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 07:25:37 -0800 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: Bravo! PPPL closing Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:24:51 +0000 Message-ID: <19970404152448.AAA19839 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"A5Z5Q1.0.TZ4.krHHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Coincidentally, the founder of PPPL, Dr. Lyman Spitzer, died on Monday. > >The March issue of Physics Today published letters from prominent critics of >the hot fusion program, including J. A. Krumhansl of Cornell, former president >of the American Physical Society, and W. Parkins, who wrote: "it is not >logical to continue to divert a substantial fraction of our physical sciences >resources to the hopeless objective of fusion power." > >- Jed > I wish I could do better than to merely paraphrase Ernst Planck who more or less said that progress is measured in funerals. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 08:12:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA20319; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:04:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:04:03 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 11:03:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970404110259_1553054974 emout16.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: question about magnets Resent-Message-ID: <"qG3891.0.Pz4.lPIHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 4/4/97 5:51:35 AM, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: <> By accepted magnetostatics theory, yes, because the magnetic forces/potentials are conservative, just like the gravitational force/potential. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 08:16:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA02068 for billb@eskimo.com; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:14:32 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:14:32 -0800 X-Envelope-From: jkaas igi.com Fri Apr 4 08:13:39 1997 Received: from jupiter.igi.com (jupiter.igi.com [192.77.113.63]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA01561 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:13:36 -0800 Received: from kaas.igi.com (kaas.igi.com [192.77.113.73]) by jupiter.igi.com with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id KAA14176 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:10:41 -0600 (CST) Received: by kaas.igi.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC40E0.DEB53200 kaas.igi.com>; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:13:41 -0600 Message-ID: <01BC40E0.DEB53200 kaas.igi.com> From: Joseph L kaas To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: stress on loaded CF cathodes Old-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:13:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BC40E0.DEBCD320" X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC40E0.DEBCD320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [snip] > > I would like to add another possibility.... Use the loaded cathode >as fuel for the hot fusion project using crossing lasers. It seems to me >that >a loaded cathode would be a more reliable fuel source than a >hydrogen gas >pellet > >JOE KAAS All that metal, with high-charge nuclei and lots of electrons to go with them, would radiate far more x-ray (bremsstrahlung) power than any fusion reaction could produce. Controlled thermonuclear fusion power is limited to the first few elements of the periodic table. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 [Joseph L kaas] What I intended was to trigger fusion of the hydrogen atoms in the metal matrix. The purpose of the lasers is to both raise the temperature of the target and also compress it due to the shock wave caused in the pellet by the rapid heating. My question was that since the hydogen is already pack together in the metal matrix, would it not be easier to get them to the point of fusion??? 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Use the loaded cathode >>>as fuel for the hot fusion project using crossing lasers.... > >>JOE KAAS [schaffer replied] >>All that metal, with high-charge nuclei and lots of electrons to go with >>them, would radiate far more x-ray (bremsstrahlung) power than any fusion >>reaction could produce. [Mitchell then said] > It seems that Joe asked a reasonable question. > > Where is your data to support your hand-wave dismissal of Joe Kaas' >question, Michael? > Bremsstrahlung is from decelleration and is German >for "braking radiation". Is that not true? > It is seen when moving electrons hit targets. It is classic >for target/beam experiments, but has NOT been characteristic >of cold fusion experiments. I think Joe was proposing a technique to improve THERMONUCLEAR fusion, and so I responded in that context. In a plasma, bremsstrahlung is produced when electrons are accelerated/decelerated by their collisions with each other and with plasma ions. It is a classic and well known phemomenon. Plasma bremsstrahlung radiates power proportional to Z^2 n_i n_e T^1/2, where Z is the nuclear charge number (e.g. 46 for fully ionized Pd), n_i and n_e are ion and electron particle densities (e.g. particles/cm^3) and T is the electron temperature. That Z dependence makes bremmstrahlung power loss greater than thermonulcear fusion power gain for all except low-Z elements, i.e. elements at the beginning of the periodic table. > Therefore, please state where it comes in this case so that >it "would radiate far more x-ray (bremsstrahlung) power than any fusion >reaction could produce". > > Also, for energetic electrons the energy loss by radiation >excess the that by ionization interactions only above circa 50 MeV, >and is called inner bremsstrahllung to distinguish it. Mitchell, you are talking about slowing down of a charged particle in a cold solid, in which case ionization is a much stronger effect. I was talking about free collisions between charged particles in a fully ionized plasma, the state of matter at the 10 keV or so temperature needed for thermonuclear fusion. >Is this the regime to which you refer? As should now be apparent, we were talking about two very different regimes. >>Controlled thermonuclear fusion power is limited >>to the first few elements of the periodic table. ... > Joe Kaas may have meant hydrogen fusion which is in the first row >as you mention. The nuclear cross sections for all fusion reactions are small. They are already small for the first few elements, and they get rapidly smaller as the atomic number increases. And, as I pointed out already, the bremsstrahlung loss power increases with atomic number (Z). Controlled THERMONUCLEAR fusion power is limited to the first few elements of the periodic table. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 08:43:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA03901; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:22:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:22:30 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:18:55 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Kaas Message-Id: <199704041618.KAA14264 jupiter.igi.com> Subject: RE: stress on loaded CF cathodes To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-MD5: 05LgIpFL6AbkXPVfnx2fdw== Resent-Message-ID: <"tqzKe3.0.py.5hIHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >[snip] >> >> I would like to add another possibility.... Use the loaded cathode >>as fuel for the hot fusion project using crossing lasers. It seems to me >>that >a loaded cathode would be a more reliable fuel source than a >>hydrogen gas >pellet >> >>JOE KAAS >. >All that metal, with high-charge nuclei and lots of electrons to go with >them, would radiate far more x-ray (bremsstrahlung) power than any fusion >reaction could produce. Controlled thermonuclear fusion power is limited >to the first few elements of the periodic table. > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 [Joseph L kaas] What I intended was to trigger fusion of the hydrogen atoms in the metal matrix. The purpose of the lasers is to both raise the temperature of the target and also compress it due to the shock wave caused in the pellet by the rapid heating. My question was that since the hydogen is already pack together in the metal matrix, would it not be easier to get them to the point of fusion??? This may actually be a way to keep the hot fusion guys happy as well. Joseph L Kaas Infinite Graphics Inc, 4611 East Lake, Minneapolis, MN 55406 Work: 612-728-1327 Fax: 612-721-3802 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 08:55:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA25520; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:34:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:34:42 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:35:05 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FW: FW: stress on loaded CF cathodes Resent-Message-ID: <"CRDwX2.0.gE6.UsIHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [continuing this thread] >> >Yeah, but if you went to proton-deuterium-lithium 7 or >proton-deuterium-boron 10 (boranes and a boride first-wall reactor) >as Cockcroft and Walton did early in the nuclear transmutation game, >with their modest proton-deuteron particle accelerator, you probably >would see Hot Fusion way ahead of the D-T, D-D, and D-He3 yields, and >a lot cleaner system too. The proton-deuterium-lithium 7 and proton-deuterium-boron 10 reactions exist, but their cross sections are very much less than the D + T fusion reaction. >As I said earlier, when you are going for reactions of a microbarn >in cross section which is only an order of magnitude or so above >the thermal neutron capture cross section for deuterons, I think >someone is barking up the wrong tree, The D + T fusion reaction cross section peaks at 5 barn. That's still small, though. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 08:55:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA28966 for billb@eskimo.com; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:55:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:55:23 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-From: jalotosk sciborg.uwaterloo.ca Fri Apr 4 08:55:13 1997 Received: from sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (jalotosk sciborg.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.62.10]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA28900; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:55:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jalotosk localhost) by sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA23177; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 11:54:56 -0500 Old-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 11:54:56 -0500 (EST) From: John Alexander Lotoski Reply-To: John Alexander Lotoski To: freenrg-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Scalar Waves Simulator program In-Reply-To: <970404053033_1750432955 emout17.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 4 Apr 1997 JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > I have developped a software program which simulate waves interferences and > how scalar waves may be generated. This SCALAR WAVES PROGRAM which show to > you scalar waves as you can see on an oscilloscope. > > This program is in zipped format (SCALSIM.ZIP). > http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/scalsim.htm Jean; Good work on the program. It's very interesting. Could you point me to a reference where the equations that you use for the non-linear wave multiplication are? What kinds of materials are needed for this non-linear property? Thanx. John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 09:44:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA06221; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:35:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:35:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970404173236.00721b14 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 12:32:36 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: loaded CF cathodes - plasma bremsstrahlung power radiation equation Resent-Message-ID: <"ewbSW2.0.xW1.RlJHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:24 AM 4/4/97 -0800, Michael J. Schaffer wrote: >I think Joe was proposing a technique to improve THERMONUCLEAR fusion, and >so I responded in that context. In a plasma, bremsstrahlung is produced >when electrons are accelerated/decelerated by their collisions with each >other and with plasma ions. It is a classic and well known phemomenon. >Plasma bremsstrahlung radiates power proportional to Z^2 n_i n_e T^1/2, >where Z is the nuclear charge number (e.g. 46 for fully ionized Pd), n_i >and n_e are ion and electron particle densities (e.g. particles/cm^3) and T >is the electron temperature. That Z dependence makes bremmstrahlung power >loss greater than thermonulcear fusion power gain for all except low-Z >elements, i.e. elements at the beginning of the periodic table. The fact remains that the radiated power is proportional to T^1/2 power, and therefore please note that with cold fusion the T is lower. Why would the impact be the same in the two systems? We can calculate what the factor is for the two cases and then determine the ratios (see below). ============================================================== >Mitchell, you are talking about slowing down of a charged particle in a >cold solid, in which case ionization is a much stronger effect. I was >talking about free collisions between charged particles in a fully ionized >plasma, the state of matter at the 10 keV or so temperature needed for >thermonuclear fusion. Good point. Bremsstrahlung does not matter if there is acceleration or deceleration as is well known. Let us take your equation and number of ~10 keV to represent the Temp of hot thermonuclear fusion. We can substitute kB*T = ~1/25 eV at room temp Thus, taking Shaeffers' plasma bremsstrahlung power radiation equation above yields a Teffective of ~ 25 * 10,000 * 290 degrees C. It is obvious that cold fusion does not have those temps. So what does the equation predict, assuming it holds for such cases. Given the factor above I calculate a ratio of 0.002 as the temperature correction factor when one uses the plasma bremsstrahlung power radiation equation quoted by Michael Schaeffer for cf. Once again, knee-jerk assumptions about hot fusion do not necessarily have the same implications for cold fusion. In this case the expected bremsstrahlung power radiation factor -- even if applicable -- may be only <1% of what is expected for hot fusion systems. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 09:46:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA12407; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:07:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:07:33 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:07:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199704041707.JAA26492 germany.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Simple OU Device. Resent-Message-ID: <"v7S08.0.h13.KLJHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:45 PM 4/4/97 +0930, you wrote: >Terry Blanton wrote: >> >> Greg Watson says: >> >> >>1) NO it is not a April 1 joke.<< >> >> I know what it is. It's a little bird with a long neck which keeps bending over >> to drink water. >> >> Terry >Hi Terry, > >You are getting colder. > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > 61 18 833 461 Mobile > Hi Greg, Is your invention similar to the rotary magnetic device USA patent 4,443,776? Do you think that unit would self rotate? I've built 5,594,289 and 5,304,881 with no self-rotation or torque. Best Regards, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 10:30:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA10357; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:03:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:03:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 12:24:30 -0500 (GMT) From: Carlos Henry Castano To: DANNY HAMILTON Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: collapse?? In-Reply-To: <3336598F.2888 lcia.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"f17ZP1.0.lX2.3AKHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > > > > I believe the R. Mills may be close to the truth in his collapsing model of > snip > > Where are the collapsed atoms? If they are > > energitically favorable they should be everywhere. The universe should be > > full of collapased atoms. Why are the universe not full of atoms of Fe, Co and Mn? (the H, He, etc, they are good fuel) it's the same question! Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo. _____________________________________________________________________________ hay mas cosas en el cielo y en la tierra que ideas en la mente de los hombres ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- there are more things in heaven and earth that ideas in the mind of the people _____________________________________________________________________________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 10:51:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA12404; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:45:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:45:26 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:49:05 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device. Resent-Message-ID: <"uIPIK3.0.E13.0nKHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg, I very much look forward to the discussion of your experiments. Glad to hear you are moving towards a patent, for your sake. A patent is only a license to sue, but that license can be vital to the survival of a new company when unfair competition from big companies threatens. Good luck in your pursuits. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 10:54:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA16837; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:45:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:45:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:49:01 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Stress on loaded CF cathodes Resent-Message-ID: <"LvH-H2.0.-64.2nKHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:10 PM 4/3/97, Jay Olson wrote: > Hmm... I find the term "heat pulse" interesting. Does this >mean that if a cathode is warmed gradually, the effects on the >reaction are not as great as if it is suddenly heated? Perhaps >this could be explained by saying that if a loaded cathode is >gradually heated, the lattice will have time to adjust to its new >thermally expanded position without jarring of hydrogen atoms. When >a "heat pulse" is used, the rapidly re-arranging lattice bumps the >hydrogen atoms around so from time to time they are close enough to >fuse. Perhaps the idea put forward by Joe Kaas of hitting loaded >cathodes with lasers would be just the thing. We probably wouldn't >have to vaporize the cathode or anything that drastic, only assure >that the temperature change is as rapid as possible. Maby start out >freezing the cathode and then heating it rapidly would be even >better. Anyway, just the ramblings of a sophomore physics student. >No need to take it seriously. > >JAY OLSON Sorry, I don't have much in the way of references handy, but there is much hisory and discussion about loaded electrode stimulation, especially in the sci.physics.fusion archives. There have been studies done using micorophones attached to CF electrodes that indicate noise is associated with at least some heat events, possibly due to crystal fracture. Conversly there have also been experiments invoving accoustical stimulation using piezo electric transducers (don't recall how successful - all early results in CF seem to have been difficult to replicate). There have been experiments involving the quenching loaded electrodes in liquid nitrogen and measuring neutron and other radiation. (I belive there were small postitve results for this. Of course there was probably a lack of interest due to the difficulty of extracting useful energy, esp. heat energy, from this technique!) There have been all kinds of other stimulations of loaded electrodes including high energy electrons or protons. (e.g. Kamada, Kasagi) There has been stimulation of the surface of loaded electrodes by piezoe drive compression of hydrogen bubbles on the surface of the cathode (e.g. Russ George, see IE No. 1). There has also been stimulation using radioactive material and x-rays and gamma rays (Ying and Shultz, IE V1 No. 1) and bombardment of cathodes with hydrogen ions (e.g. Piantelli, Clayter, etc., see IE V2 No.7) There is also has been much discuission (I was involved in some of this on s.p.f anlong with various others who are here) of electro magnetic shocking and also through-cathode current stimulation (e.g the Raglund triode cell.) There have been various discussions as well about stimulation of the electrolyte directly. All these methods of stimulation can potentially cause fusion by delivering significant energy, kinetic energy, shock, to specific small places in a crystal lattice. The problem, of course, is getting more energy out than is put into the process as a whole. Every idea is a good idea - especially from fresh young minds. One idea leads to another and another - and eventually the problem gets solved. Keep at it! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 10:59:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA12337; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:45:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:45:19 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:48:57 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Bravo! PPPL closing Resent-Message-ID: <"atO053.0.d03.zmKHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:30 AM 4/4/97, Jed Rothwell wrote: >To: Vortex > >Here is something to celebrate. On April 4, the New York Times reported that >the "mighty fusion test reactor at the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory was >being shut down yesterday for the last time." Let us hope so, but I wish we >could drive a stake through its heart. There is bad news too: Even though the >reactor is closing down, only 150 to 200 of the remaining 500 employees are >being fired. The remaining people are building a smaller test reactor >scheduled to be complete in 1999. > This is the good news! [snip] >The March issue of Physics Today published letters from prominent critics of >the hot fusion program, including J. A. Krumhansl of Cornell, former president >of the American Physical Society, and W. Parkins, who wrote: "it is not >logical to continue to divert a substantial fraction of our physical sciences >resources to the hopeless objective of fusion power." > >- Jed Statements like the above are portents of a coming breakthrough. It is camplacency with the status quo that stifles creative energy and keeps it down with the burden of bureaucracy. Only by recognizing a problem can it be solved. The recognition has come for some time. Hopefully new solutions in the hot fusion program are not far off. At least the effort is clearly being made to find them. Any loss of effort toward solving the energy problem is a loss to all hmanity. The money saved from energy research cuts does not seem to be redirected to more effective energy research, but is channeled to other non-energy related programs. I don't understand this. Maybe you just have to live in the arctic to see first hand how rapidly the weather is changing, that we have a real problem on our hands. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 13:10:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA20614; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 12:50:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 12:50:04 -0800 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: "Hydrino-Deutrino" Autoregeneration? Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:49:26 +0000 Message-ID: <19970404204924.AAA15968 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"ThRTz.0.x15.xbMHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians: Assuming the existence of the absorption of the theorized light electron by a proton or deuteron and the release of 255 KeV during the absorption process. Might it be possible that as the decay occurs that the photons released could produce additional pairs, and thus build up the amount of "Hydrinos-Deutrinos" in a given area, limited only by the availability of hydrogen as in the CF loading effects? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 13:22:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA22126; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:00:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:00:21 -0800 Date: 04 Apr 97 15:23:15 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Competition requires losers Message-ID: <970404202315_72240.1256_EHB118-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"h33_w3.0.eP5.ZlMHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Horace Heffner writes: Any loss of effort toward solving the energy problem is a loss to all humanity. As a businessman, I disagree. We do not have infinite supplies of money, lab equipment, or talented scientists. We must allocate resources by competition. Competition must have winners and losers. We must have discipline, enforced by the fear of failure. We cannot allow useless boondoggle research to continue indefinitely. Good researchers should be rewarded with more funding and better jobs. Bad researchers should be fired. They can contribute more to society in some other line of work. A research program which has failed to reach its goals time after time for decades is a cancer that will destroy science. The money saved from energy research cuts does not seem to be redirected to more effective energy research, but is channeled to other non-energy related programs. It does not matter where the money is channeled. It is being wasted in the hot fusion program. There is no measurable chance that the program will ever result in a practical form of energy. It is unethical to take money out of the pockets of struggling, hard-working people, and to waste that money on technology that most experts agree cannot work. The mean income for U.S. families is $32,000 per year. Most people struggle to pay for groceries and rent. We have no right to take their money and bet it on million-to-one crapshoot! If you want to risk billions of dollars on such dubious technology, you must find rich investors who can afford to lose the money. Decades ago, the experts at EPRI, Los Alamos, the American Physical Society and elsewhere wrote off hot fusion. If we allow science to continue ripping off the public in this fashion, it will eventually boomerang back upon the scientists. The public will demand deep cuts in *all* research, worthy or not. The innocent and the guilty alike will suffer, because science refuses to clean up its own house and enforce its own standards. This is management irresponsibility. In private industry, it would result in shareholder's lawsuits and the ousting of top management. Or it would end in bankruptcy. Hopefully new solutions in the hot fusion program are not far off. The hot fusion program leaders themselves say that solutions are 50 to 100 years off! At least the effort is clearly being made to find them. No, the effort is not being made. It is a charade. It is all in vain. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 13:30:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA11094; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:20:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:20:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <334570B2.3F83 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 16:20:50 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: hheffner corecom.net Subject: Re: Stress on loaded CF cathodes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rXkDp.0.Gj2.a2NHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > (snip) > Sorry, I don't have much in the way of references handy, but there is much > hisory and discussion about loaded electrode stimulation, especially in the > sci.physics.fusion archives. Hey, Horace, it would be interesting to put a small pellet of highly loaded Pd into one of those hand-screw-diamond-anvil type devices. Have a geiger counter handy and get ready to toss the thing out of the window - quick! I asked my wife if she would donate her diamond rings but she said no - no dedication to science!! Woosey from Armstrong flooring adheasive vapors - - - Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 13:32:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA16509; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:28:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:28:32 -0800 Date: 04 Apr 97 12:24:56 EST From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo" Subject: BLP in the News Message-ID: <970404172455_76016.2701_JHC89-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"BWXZZ.0.g14._eJHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts, Following is a message from my BlackLight Power thread in CompuServe's Cold Fusion Section of the Science Forum. Otis Port, science writer for Business Week Magazine, responds to typical Blue debunking. Terry ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Subj: New Energy Source? Section: Cold Fusion To: Richard A. Blue, 104537,737 Thursday, April 03, 1997 12:56:00 PM From: Otis Port, 72345,147 #285955 Dick, Here are the names of the East/West Coast utilities involved with BlackLight Power... (Edited abstract of a Reuters feature on 4/1/97) Business sees new energy source in hydrogen Dr. Randell Mills has begun to demonstrate in the laboratory at his private company, BlackLight Power Inc., what he says is a very efficient and non-polluting means of producing energy from hydrogen. He says a fuel cell the size of a desk could in theory supply the electricity now produced by an eight-floor-high coal-fired boiler, and a 200-horsepower car engine the size of a suitcase could power a vehicle four times around the world on a single tank of water. "I'm convinced that there is something of enormous impact here and it's only a question of time until we can garner the capital and infrastructure to take it into commercialization," said Shelby Brewer, assistant energy secretary under Reagan and former head of ABB Combustion Engineering, one of the world's largest makers of electrical generation equipment. A Penn State University test done for BlackLight recorded heat production 100 times greater than that produced by "burning" hydrogen, another technology being studied as an energy source. "The evidence presented in this report clearly suggests that an extraordinary phenomenon takes place ... this phenomenon appears to generate a tremendous amount of 'excess' heat." But the report urged a cautious approach be taken and said additional experimental work was required. Similar results have been obtained in other laboratories, including in a test run by Peter Jansson, an engineer and manager of market development for Atlantic Energy Inc. Jansson, who conducted the test independently of his company, said Atlantic Energy was "strongly considering" what he called a "strategic investment" in BlackLight Power. Last year, Oregon-based utility holding firm PacifiCorp invested $1 million in a stake in BlackLight Power, according to documents filed with Pennsylvania regulators. "We are definitely willing to put some time and money into it (the technology)," said Tom Cassel, president of Reading Energy Co., a Philadelphia firm that commercializes advanced power-plant technology. "Is it at this point a fail-safe deal? It's still early to tell," he said. "The laboratory work is compelling (but) it's yet to be demonstrated on a large, self-sustained basis." Mills said plans are underway with another to build firm a test plant to produce about one megawatt of energy, equivalent to the amount needed to light a small shopping centre. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 15:10:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA23256; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:00:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:00:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:59:15 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199704042259.QAA21723 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: Teleportation To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"bBqFE.0.Ih5.qVOHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: > > >Information on IBM's research into teleportation: >http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ > > >- Reed Huish > Zenergy Corporation > http://zenergy.com > > Reed, This is old news. It's been through this list before this past year. BTW, you made some very prodigous claims and posted them on the net about a free energy device that was supposed to be produced and sold by your your company in a few months. This was about one year ago. What's the story? Time to put up or shut up, Mr. Huish. RWW From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 15:14:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA12688; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:50:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:50:39 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:52:31 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Competition requires losers Resent-Message-ID: <"u317z3.0.663.-MOHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: >There is no measurable chance that the program will ever >result in a practical form of energy. I will not get into a long thread on this subject. However, just once, I want to say that the above statement is not true. >EPRI, Los Alamos, the American Physical Society and elsewhere >wrote off hot fusion. EPRI, maybe. LANL and APS most certainly have not written off thermonuclear fusion. (It is true, however, that LANL has not fared well in the last 10 years of fusion competion.) Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 15:15:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA31571; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:41:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:41:26 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:43:39 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Contract Technology Resent-Message-ID: <"gz-4U1.0.Cj7.4MNHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: snip-- >result in a practical form of energy. It is unethical to take money out of the >pockets of struggling, hard-working people, and to waste that money on >technology that most experts agree cannot work. The mean income for U.S. >families is $32,000 per year. Most people struggle to pay for groceries and snip-- > >- Jed I would agree with your comments about wasting taxpayers' monies -- I would perhaps be a bit more liberal in my application of this principle and extended it to the _billions_ of $$$'s wasted across the board -- nationally and internationally -- in a plethora of federal boondoggle programs..... Re the question of competition: one of the best approaches is to structure cooperative contracts where both parties either _rise_ together or _fall_ together. This is where the profession of Contract Engineering (presently termed "lawyers") would evolve. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "In speaking of the Energy of the field, however, I wish to be understood literally. All energy is the same as mechanical energy, whether it exists in the form of motion or in that of elasticity, or in any other form. The energy in electromagnetic phenomena is _mechanical_ energy." --- JAMES CLERK MAXWELL From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 15:20:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA24839; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:10:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:10:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199704042359.SAA14979 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: Tstolper aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:20:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Upadhyay in J.I.T and J.I.E.T.E. Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: <970404085048_1519272994 emout02.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"yhP9_.0.146.xfOHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4 Apr 97 at 8:50, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > From: Tstolper aol.com > On March 28, Anders Heerfordt posted some information about > publications by C. S. Upadhyay: > > "Some publications: > J.I.E. (Raj. State Cenre), 20, May 1979, 11-16 > J.I.E. (Raj. State Centre), 27, April 1988, 47-51 > Thesis, University of London, England, 1961 > J.I.E.T.E, Vol 35, No 5, sept-Oct 1989" > > Does Anders or any other Vortexian know what the abbreviations J.I.E > or J.I.E.T.E. stand for? Tom, According to OCLC (Online Catalog of the Library of Congress): J.I.E. = Journal of the Institution of Engineers 8 Gokhale Road Calcutta, India 700020 J.I.E. has 28 divisions, much like IEEE Transactions. The OCLC data doesn't mention "Rajasthan State Centre" so more digging would be needed to find the exact journal where Upadhyay's papers appeared. J.I.E.T.E. = Journal of the Institution of Electronics and Telecommunications Engineers P.O. Box #3040 New Delhi, India 110003 OCLC lists quite a few libraries in USA that have holdings of these journals: Carnegie-Mellon, NY Public Library, etc. Most medium/large libraries have an OCLC terminal that can look up this info for you. Best regards, Bob Flower ======================================================= Robert G. Flower, Applied Science Associates Quality Control Engineering Instrumentation Systems - Technology Transfer ======================================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 15:35:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA27874; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:27:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:27:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <33458DC5.6067 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 08:54:53 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Simple OU Device (Now not so simple)! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TeaS92.0.Np6.RvOHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Just a short note to let you know I am still here. The loop is not closed. One step forward, two big steps backward. My development plan was to build, as simple and quickly as possible, a closed loop system and THEN build another much better closed system which would allow measurements and testing by others to be undertaken. In my haste, I decided to combine the two projects. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I now have a very much larger unit which can't even duplicate the original effect and I don't fully understand why. I thought I FULLY understood what was happening in my first superglue and blu-tack unit. I suspect I went too big, too quickly. Bad decision, bad produce development and very bad science. In building the closed loop system, I scaled up the design by about 6x. I forgot the first law of development and invention. KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). Oh, well, seems we only REALLY learn by our mistakes. Back to the drawing board, superglue, blu-tack and building a "SIMPLE KISS" closed loop design. Should be finished this weekend. I have just completed a copy of the original unit. I duplicates the effect and will be stored by my patent attorney in a safe location unknown to me. Thanks for the many phone calls of support. Bye for now. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 16:16:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA00619; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:14:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:14:05 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:56:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device (Now not so simple)! Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"lnFyY3.0.N9.9bPHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: snip-- > >In building the closed loop system, I scaled up the design by about 6x. > >I forgot the first law of development and invention. KISS (Keep It >Simple Stupid). > >Oh, well, seems we only REALLY learn by our mistakes. Back to the >drawing board, superglue, blu-tack and building a "SIMPLE KISS" closed >loop design. Should be finished this weekend. > snip--- > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > 61 18 833 461 Mobile Yes, mistakes can be sometimes as profitable as achieving the effect you desired. Persistence can pay off! Evan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 18:30:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA26370; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:22:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:22:14 -0800 (PST) Date: 04 Apr 97 21:19:57 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Synthesizing oil, and knowledge Message-ID: <970405021957_72240.1256_EHB86-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"AcjIx2.0.uR6.ITRHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex John Steck said "Sure you can harvest CO2 from the air to produce hydrocarbons or make synthetic food, but why?" I did not get around to responding, but Carlos Henry Castano wrote a magnificent answer: Why? Hmmmm, Every day I walk at home (9:30pm), and I see hungry people that look at me, and at 12:00m when I am going to lunch, I look people that smell a shoe glue....in order to sleep and not sense the pain that cause this hungry. Amen! We should synthesize food because people are hungry. Why else? Agriculture just isn't good enough. Maybe we can solve the problem with indoor farming, but if not, we must synthesize. Steck says "the question is not *can* we do something, but *should* we do something." The answer is often yes, because things turn out to have many more uses than we anticipate. There is a book written 20 years ago titled "Computers and Human Reason," which I recommend. It is anti-technology to some extent. The author asks "why should we?" -- sometimes too often, sometimes where the author should have known better. For example, I recall he asks what is the use of voice recognition software and voice generation programs. (This was before they were practical.) Any thoughtful person should have realized that voice recognition could help people who are paralyzed, blind, or disabled from carpal tunnel syndrome. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 18:55:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA29899; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:51:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:51:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3345BD73.116F microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 12:18:19 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mEaWq3.0.4J7.JuRHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, While I set here, working to close the loop, a thought came to me that I would our vortexian friends (and others) to think about. We seem to have a very good understanding that magnetic fields are not a energy source in themselves and can only convert or transmit energy. Any work seen to be done by a magnetic field is actually reflected to the fields energy source. In the case of an electromagnet, we also seem to have a good understanding of how the coil's current (the electron flow), and hense input power varies as the current generated magnetic field does its stuff and does work. What I would ask you to think and comment about is the effect on the energy source of a permanent magnet (IE the aligned spinning iron atom's electrons), if we could get a magnet to deliver real work. Would the electrons of the iron atoms alter their energy levels? Would they slow down? Would they fall to a lower shell? Would the iron atom undergo a chemical / nuclear change if we could extract energy from the spinning electrons? How much energy would be available in 1 cm^3 of magnetised iron before the magnet would suffer some internal chemical / nuclear change? I am sure you understand my thoughts here. Your comments may help to close a much bigger macro loop than my hands now work on. Maybe both loops will close at the same time and help all to better understand. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 20:28:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA14075; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:01:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:01:35 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:18:45 -0500 (GMT) From: Carlos Henry Castano To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Synthesizing oil, and knowledge In-Reply-To: <9703251319.ZM9932 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"lfYjm.0.rR3.EXOHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, John Steck wrote: > It is my opinion that with all science and technology, the question is not > *can* we do something, but *should* we do something. I firmly believe there is > a solution to every problem, but not always a good one. Sure you can harvest > CO2 from the air to produce hydrocarbons or make synthetic food, but why? Why? Hmmmm, Every day I walk at home (9:30pm), and I see hungry people that look at me, and at 12:00m when I am going to lunch, I look people that smell a shoe glue....in order to sleep and not sense the pain that cause this hungry. I fear that this persons attack me and try to take my money (in my pockets are among 0,5 u$ and 5 U$), and I prefer to dream that in the future, we will able to help the people that suffer this phantom in the world..... With synthetic food? yes, this may be put down the food prices in all the world, for this we need large quantities of energy.... I think so..... I'm not a pragmatic man yet..... Carlos Henry Casta~o. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 23:00:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA16596; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 22:57:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 22:57:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3345F597.593F microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 16:17:51 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4076A89166C" Resent-Message-ID: <"ie8xw3.0.934.WVVHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4076A89166C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile --------------4076A89166C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <3345DB9E.1486 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 14:27:02 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William Beaty Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Beaty wrote: > > On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > > > How much energy would be available in 1 cm^3 of magnetised iron before > > the magnet would suffer some internal chemical / nuclear change? > > Not alot, a couple of joules I would imagine. An o/u generator, if it > powered a tiny lightbulb, would pretty quickly go beyond the amount of > energy stored in magnets. I think we need to look further. We normally talk of the energy "Stored in a magnet". What we are refering to is the magnets ability to resist a demagnetizing field. The energy used in the manufacturing process relates to the processes themselves. We use energy to force the domains to align initially and use other tricky processes and energy to make it difficult for the domains to unalign over time. We spend a lot of time and effort to make those domain alignments as stiff as possible. However none of this relates to the energy source used by the domains to generate their own unique fields. If these domain fields are not aligned, we see no external, bulk, macro, whatever field. > If you cut a magnet lengthwise, through the poles, the two halves will > immediately flip so N-N moves to N-S. This removes a major part of the > stored energy, which ends up as frictional heat. If you cut the halves > into quarters, they flip too, but give up less energy. Continue the > process until you have a stack of iron foil having no net magnetization. I totally agree, you have just destroyed the ordered, aligned domain structure. But all you have destroyed is the external, bulk, macro field. The domain's own fields still exist. > Or alternately, interleave a bunch of magnetized foil pieces with > alternating directions. The stack has zero net magnetization. If you > connect the edges of alternating pieces together, then pull them in > opposite directions, you will do quite a lot of work in separating them, > and once separated, the work is entirely stored in the fields around the > two stacks. > > So, a magnet is like a wound spring. It might power a small clock motor > for significant time, but it has *way* less energy than a battery of equal > size. It not the energy required to cause domain alignment that we are interested in. Its the energy source which generates the domain's field that is the key. > Also, the magnetic field is proportional to the remaining stored energy. We don't store energy in a magnet any more than we store energy in a atom, we only allow the domains, their atoms, their electron spins, their moving electric fields to align. The domains provide the field, we only provide and play with the bulk alignment. > If you measure the field, then use the magnet to power some device, as the > magnet loses energy its field will decrease. I agree. But we need to look at the domain and its atoms for the answer as to the energy available. And its not energy we have put there. > Alternately, if the field > does *not* decrease, yet the flywheel turns and the lightbulb stays lit, > then you've proved that the magnet is not the energy source. That would stir things up a bit. > .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. > William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 > EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ > Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page Hi Bill, OK to forward this to the group? -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile --------------4076A89166C-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 01:59:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA09920; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 01:57:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 01:57:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <33462107.1A6E microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 19:23:11 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets References: <199704050657.WAA16715 mx1.eskimo.com> <33461622.384C@gorge.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"E2Gfn.0.nQ2.i7YHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Miller wrote: > > Greg: > > My opinion, for what it's worth, is that we need to change > our ideas about permanent magnets. "Everybody knows" that > PMs are made by aligning "domains." Having read everything > I can find on PMs, I still cannot force myself to accept > the idea of "domains." > > I have not found any reasonably logical explanation of the > idea that little small sections of crystal lattice can move > in relation to each other. It seems much more logical that > atoms, or molecules in a lattice could turn, within the > lattice, such that their individual dipoles align with the > imposed magnetic field. In soft iron/ferrite they can return > to their original random alignment easily, in "harder" material, > they remain aligned. > > I am aware that This does not fit the dominant paradigm, but > we must look "outside the square." If this opinion is correct, > then a PM is as permanent as the "rotation" of electrons around > the nucleus. Nevertheless, even if the above is true, the PM's > aligned atoms could become randomized, either by de-gaussing, or > by excessive utilization to produce energy. (Also, of course by > heating beyond the Curie point!) > > Good fortune. > > Tom Miller HI Tom, Here is some "Domain" info which may help your understanding. >From : "A Guide to Understanding, Specifying and Using Permanent Magnet Materials, Magnetic Materials Producers Association." -------------------------------- " About 60 years ago French physicist Piere Weiss postulated that a ferromagnetic body must be composed of some regions or domains, each of which is magnetized to saturation level, but the direction of the magnetization from domain to domain need not be parallel. Thus a magnet, when demagnetized, was only demagnetized from the viewpoint of a observer outside the material. Man made fields only serve as a control in changing the balance of potential energy within a magnet. This theory still provides the basis of our highly sophisticated body of knowledge that expalins quite satisfactorily the observed properties of ferromagnetic materials and provides an intelligent guide in the search for improved materials. The inherent atomic magnetic moment associated with such elements as iron, cobalt, nickel and many compounds is believed to originate from a net unbalance of electron spins in certain electron shells. For example, in iron in the third shell there are more electrons spinning in one direction than in the opposite direction. Having an inheriant atomic magnetic moment is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for ferromagnetism to be exhibited. Additionally, there must be cooperative interatomic exchange forces that maintain neighboring atoms parallel. Little is known of the exact nature or magnitude of these forces but observation suggests they are electrostatic. It has been pointed out that in ferromagnetic materials the ratio of interatomic distance to the diameter of the shell in which the unbalance exists is unusually laarge compared to this ratio in materials which do not exhibit ferromagnetism. The relative dimentions of the atom, domain, crystal and a measurable volume are noted below: 1 cubic cm of ferromagnetic material is composed of 10^2 crystals. 1 crystal is composed of 10^6 domains. 1 domain is composed of 10^15 atoms. The atomic exchange force also produces magnetostrictive effects and is associated with the crystalline structure of magnetic materials in a way that exhibits anisotropy or directional dependence with respect to the crystal axis. We can view the magnetic domain as a region in which atomic monents cooperate to allow common magnetic moments which may be rotated by externally applied fields. Domain size, not a fundamental constant of physics, varies widely depending on composition, purity and the state of strain of the material as well as some very important energy relationships. A boundry region exists between two domains. This boundry region and its significance was first proposed by Bloch. The Bloch wall is a transition containing many atomic planes. The 180 degree change in magnetization must occur over a considerable distance to minimize the potential energy in the wall. : XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX : X D : X : X C : X : X : X : X : X B : X : X : X : X :X-A------------------------------- The demagnetized condition (A) results from a internal arrangement with mutually cancelling directions of magnetization vectors. In region (B) with low values of external field the action is primarily one of domain boundry stretching, usually around imperfections. This is a reversible process (reversible magnetization process is one in which the magnetization vectors reorient to their original position after the field (H) is removed). As the field is increased, region (C) domain boundaries break away and move through the material. The more favorably oriented regions grow at the expense of their less favorably oriented neighbours. As a result, a large increase in magnetic induction occurs. This is a irreversible process in which the magnetization vectors tend to keep their new posiions after a field (H) is removed. In region (D) at still higher values of magnetization force, the magnetization vecors are rotated against the forces of strain and crystalline anisotropy into alignment with the direction of the applied field, and saturation occurs. Removing the magnetizing force causes some relaxation; the domains rotate back to the easy direction of magnetization (a reversible process). This relaxation can be minimized by making the direction of easy magnetization coincident with the desired direction of magnetizzation. When a permanent magnet is magnetized, energy is dissipated in changing the internal potential energy balance. For a magnet to establish external field energy additional input energy is required to set up the free poles and establish the magnet's magnetomotive force. Energy is only involved in changing a magnetic field, not in maintaining the field. Hence the field associated with the parmanent magnet is independent of time unless the magnet is subjected to some form of additional energy input such as heat or demagnetization energy. The permanent magnet is a unique component in the energy conversion process. A permanent magnet in a stabilized condition is a reversible medium for energy transformation. Potential energy is stored in the magnet volume and in the external field associated with the magnet. Permanent magnets often operate over a dynamic cycle where energy is converted from electrical or mechanical form to field energy and then returned to the original form. " ------------------- -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 03:02:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA13020; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 02:44:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 02:44:01 -0800 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Hydrino-Deutrino Threat? Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 10:43:25 +0000 Message-ID: <19970405104322.AAA7268 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"HpxWP.0.JB3.npYHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians: Although the theorized "Hydrinos-Deutrinos" promise an abundance of low cost energy they may also have a down side.Once formed they will not be inert like helium as proposed, but somewhat like neutrons they should be able to go into a nucleus and cause a plethora of thermonuclear reactions. This is great for the Hot Fusion effort where they could be fed into a "Tokamak" for the fissioning of about any nucleus giving the associated energy release and other products. But, in living tissue they could cause transmutation of potassium into calcium as is indicated by the potassium deficiency in the world ocean, or other such reactions. When it comes to getting unlimited quantities of "free" energy there is a price to pay isn't there? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 04:35:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA23988; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 04:34:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 04:34:08 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:33:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970405073259_-1503380875 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com cc: jalotosk sciborg.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Re : Re: Scalar Waves Simulator program Resent-Message-ID: <"HXvNc3.0.gs5.-QaHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 04/04/1997 18:06:03, you wrote : << From: jalotosk sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (John Alexander Lotoski) Jean; Good work on the program. It's very interesting. Could you point me to a reference where the equations that you use for the non-linear wave multiplication are? What kinds of materials are needed for this non-linear property? Thanx. John >> Dear John, Thanks for your comments about my Scalar Waves Simulator program, I give you more informations about my program : * For the " Standing waves ": 0 < angle < 2*Pi wave1 = Sin(angle) wave2 = Sin(angle) Sum = wave1 + wave2 * For " Multplying two counter-propagating waves " 0 < angle < 4.3 wave1 = Sin(angle) wave2 = Sin(angle ) product = wave1 * wave2 * For " SUBSTRACT rather than ADD two quadradure waves " 0 < angle < 4.3 phaseshift! = pi / 2 wave1 = Sin(angle) wave2 = Sin(angle) product1 = wave1 * wave2 wave3 = Sin(angle - phaseshift!) wave4 = Sin(angle - phaseshift!) product2 = wave3 * wave4 Sum = product1 - product2 * For " Multiplying a SECOND bi-directional pair of waves " 0 < angle < 4.3 phaseshift! = pi / 2 wave1 = Sin(angle) wave2 = Sin(angle) product1 = wave1 * wave2 wave3 = Sin(angle - phaseshift!) wave4 = Sin(angle - phaseshift!) product2 = wave3 * wave4 Sum = product1 + product2 Concerning the material, for an Scalar E-Field experiment you can use Barium Titanate ceramic (piezo), or for Scalar B-Field experiment you can use Barium Titanate ferrite or MetGlass amorphous non-linear material (Allied Signal), for instance. I hope that this informations will help you, Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm Automatic links: Home_Page Send_E-mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 07:09:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA08363; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 06:28:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 06:28:49 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 09:28:25 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tilleyrw digital.net (Robert Tilley) Subject: RE: Electron Spin Resent-Message-ID: <"6mfj-3.0.b22.V6cHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I feel I must voice my opinon to the crowd on this matter. My knowledge is that "electron spin" is an outdated concept. Electrons do not spin in nice, circular orbits as shown on elementary school science posters. Electrons form clouds that surround the nucleus. At any moment, the electron may be at any point in the electron cloud, whether it be an s, p, d, or f orbital. Now, if you are talking about the spin of a single electron, either + or -, that is an entirely different story. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Tilley | "Be very careful what you wish tilleyrw digital.net | for, you just might get it." robert.tilley-1 kmail.ksc.nasa.gov | -- Anonymous From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 07:29:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA12936; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:02:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:02:05 -0800 Message-Id: <199704051550.KAA20760 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 09:14:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: (FWD): scientists of the 21st century Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: <328.106.69a intuition.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"4xK5e.0.2A3.ibcHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: And now a word from the scientists of the 21st century.... -- Bob Flower ------------- forwarded message follows------------ On 4 Apr 97 at 14:55, Tom Mellett wrote: To: Multiple recipients of list PHYSICS Reply-to: physics@intuition.org From: TEAM-PHYZZ mail.utexas.edu (Tom Mellett) ================================================= The beguiling ideas about science quoted here were gleaned from essays, exams, and classroom discussions of 5th and 6th graders. They illustrate Mark Twain's contention that the "most interesting information comes from children, for they tell all they know and then stop." ************************************************************ One horsepower is the amount of energy it takes to drag a horse 500 feet in one second. You can listen to thunder after lightning and tell how close you came getting hit. If you don't hear it, you got hit, so never mind. Talc is found on rocks and on babies. The law of gravity says no fair jumping up without coming back down. When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions. When people run around and around in circles we say they are crazy. When planets do it we say they are orbiting. Rainbows are just to look at, not to really understand. While the earth seems to be knowingly keeping its distance from the sun, it is really only certificating. Someday we may discover how to make magnets that can point in any direction. South America has cold summers and hot winters, but somehow they still manage. Most books now say our sun is a star. But it still knows how to change back into a sun in the daytime. Water freezes at 32 degrees and boils at 212 degrees. There are 180 degrees between freezing and boiling because there are 180 degrees between north and south. A vibration is a motion that cannot make up its mind which way it wants to go. There are 26 vitamins in all, but some of the letters are yet to be discovered. Finding them all means living forever. There is a tremendous weight pushing down on the center of the Earth because of so much population stomping around up there these days. Lime is a green-tasting rock. Many dead animals in the past changed to fossils while others preferred to be oil. Genetics explain why you look like your father and if you don't why you should. Vacuums are nothings. We only mention them to let them know we know they're there. Some oxygen molecules help fires burn while others help make water, so sometimes it's brother against brother. Some people can tell what time it is by looking at the sun. But I have never been able to make out the numbers. We say the cause of perfume disappearing is evaporation. Evaporation gets blamed for a lot of things people forget to put the top on. To most people solutions mean finding the answers. But to chemists solutions are things that are still all mixed up. In looking at a drop of water under a microscope, we find there are twice as many H's as O's. Clouds are high flying fogs. I am not sure how clouds get formed. But the clouds know how to do it, and that is the important thing. Clouds just keep circling the earth around and around. And around. There is not much else to do. Water vapor gets together in a cloud. When it is big enough to be called a drop, it does. Humidity is the experience of looking for air and finding water. We keep track of the humidity in the air so we won't drown when we breathe. Rain is often known as soft water, oppositely known as hail. Rain is saved up in cloud banks. In some rocks you can find the fossil footprints of fishes. Cyanide is so poisonous that one drop of it on a dogs tongue will kill the strongest man. A blizzard is when it snows sideways. A hurricane is a breeze of a bigly size. A monsoon is a French gentleman. Thunder is a rich source of loudness. Isotherms and isobars are even more important than their names sound. It is so hot in some places that the people there have to live in other places. The wind is like the air, only pushier. ================================================================== T. K. Cassidy - Children's Librarian /// Guam Public Library Resident Writer, Storyteller & Author!! :-) tkc kuentos.guam.net http://www.guam.net/home/tkc/ 1270 North Marine Drive, Suite 101-424 Tamuning GUAM 96911 U S A ================================================================== Don't let people drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 08:48:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA30643; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:37:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:37:47 -0800 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:36:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970405113643_-1670715241 emout15.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Resent-Message-ID: <"2l7JL1.0.8U7.O_dHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg, The standard textbook description of extraction of energy from magnets assumes that as energy is extracted, the magnetic domains that were aligned to provide the initial field are realigned such that the magnet's field energy drops. From this process relatively little energy can be extracted. A more intriguing possibility, still speculative, is based on the fact that electron spin has been modelled in stochastic electrodynamics (SED) to derive from vacuum fluctuations. In this case, if one could reach in to the electron spin and apply a "friction brake" to extract energy, the vacuum fluctuations would pump the spin back up, since equilibrium with the vacuum keeps spin (in the SED model) at h-bar/2. If this speculation were to pan out, electron spin (from which magnetic energy derives) would act as a transducer of vacuum energy. To date, however, no one has demonstrated an embodiment that would do this (at least to my satisfaction) or we would be driving magnet cars. Best regards, Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 08:52:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA02906; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:49:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:49:35 -0800 Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:25:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199704051625.IAA00004 iceland.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Simple OU Device. Resent-Message-ID: <"5GwDh.0.Bj.PAeHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: >> Is your invention similar to the rotary magnetic device USA patent >> 4,443,776? Do you think that unit would self rotate? > >I have simulated the idea in this patent (4,443,776) and can't see how >it can work. The magnets will generate lobes of flux from their faces >and edges. These lobes are conservative and have flux vectors which >will not support rotation. > >> I've built 5,594,289 and 5,304,881 with no self-rotation or torque. > >I have also simulated these patents and would agree with you. > >> Best Regards, >> Michael Randall > >Hi Michael, > >My invention is NOT like any of these. > >Seems the US patent office allows junk patents, which in the real world >don't work. Oh well, guess it keeps people employed and attorneys in >nice life styles. > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > 61 18 833 461 Mobile Hi Greg, Thanks for info. It is nice to have a computer software program to test the magnetic fields of the arranged magnets before actually building the model. I'll hold off on building patent 4,443,776 and await for info on your invention model. Did you also test your model on the computer program before building it? If so did the software make the correct predictions? Does your model use standard magnetics or will we need to manufacture special magnetic shapes? Good Fortune, Michael Randall BTW keep up the posts on magnetic theory. I only have limited reading info on magnetic theories. Will your model rewrite the books or does it match current theory? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 08:53:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA02750; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:49:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:49:22 -0800 From: RMCarrell aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:28:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970405112841_282687509 emout05.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Resent-Message-ID: <"abKrT.0.te.CAeHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Those interested in magnetism as a source of energy are referred to the work of Harold Aspden, who has much, much to say on the subject. Electromagnetism and ferrmomagnetism are seen by him not so much a source or energy per se as the means whereby the vacuum or aether energy can be gated into useful work. Leads into Aspden's work will be found in the last two issues of Infinite Energy, which contain an article by Aspden and the text of the Adams-Aspden motor patent, and references to Aspden's Aether Science Papers. These are worth study. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 08:53:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA02828; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:49:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:49:26 -0800 From: RMCarrell aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:28:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970405112839_-1034268308 emout04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Synthetic Food Resent-Message-ID: <"Mgtnq3.0.Nh.IAeHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sounds, good, synthesizing food from CO2, H2O, and some minerals. Plants have been doing it for a long time, and took even longer to learn how. Now we have a big market in vitamins because of the inadequate content of processed foods. We still don't know the full value of all the chemicals provided by food stuffs. By what conceit do we think that our chemistry will any time soon (give or take a decade) identify the full range of necessary chemicals to include in a truly adequate diet? And just when will we have synthetic chemistry up to the task? We are finicky eaters, accustomed to a short list of veggies and animals. How about algae and bacteria as food sources? And hydroponics? Sub totals -- eating habits, food choices, capital costs. Bottom line, energy. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 09:28:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA22231; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 09:26:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 09:26:29 -0800 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Synthetic Food Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 17:25:46 +0000 Message-ID: <19970405172544.AAA19150 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"i2-ix3.0.FR5.3jeHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:28 PM 4/5/97 +0000, Mike Carrell wrote: >Sounds, good, synthesizing food from CO2, H2O, and some minerals. Plants have >been doing it for a long time, and took even longer to learn how. Now we have >a big market in vitamins because of the inadequate content of processed >foods. We still don't know the full value of all the chemicals provided by >food stuffs. By what conceit do we think that our chemistry will any time >soon (give or take a decade) identify the full range of necessary chemicals >to include in a truly adequate diet? And just when will we have synthetic >chemistry up to the task? > >We are finicky eaters, accustomed to a short list of veggies and animals. How >about algae and bacteria as food sources? And hydroponics? Sub totals -- >eating habits, food choices, capital costs. Bottom line, energy. > >Mike Carrell > I vote for the hydroponics Mike. This lets the veggies do the synthesis. There are fluorescent lights with the optiumum spectrum available at your local hardware store. Very profitable growing marijuana even at present energy costs. (so I hear) Seems that DEA checks local electric bills to see who is above the average 500 kw-hr/month residential usage to nail those involved in such endeavors. :-) So, if you hear an O-U motor-generator set running next door..... You think Hal Puthoff is looking at the silent extraction of ZPE just for the "Fern" of it? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 09:36:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA14674; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 09:34:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 09:34:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 12:34:07 -0500 (EST) From: John Alexander Lotoski To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Electron Spin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"EKTTs2.0.Cb3.aqeHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, Robert Tilley wrote: > I feel I must voice my opinon to the crowd on this matter. > > My knowledge is that "electron spin" is an outdated concept. Electrons > do not spin in nice, circular orbits as shown on elementary school science > posters. > > Electrons form clouds that surround the nucleus. At any moment, the > electron may be at any point in the electron cloud, whether it be an s, p, > d, or f orbital. > > Now, if you are talking about the spin of a single electron, either + or > -, that is an entirely different story. I wasn't aware that the circular orbit electron model was still being taught anywhere except public school (in order to simplify matters). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 10:17:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA18775; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 10:10:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 10:10:43 -0800 (PST) Date: 05 Apr 97 13:08:46 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Message-ID: <970405180845_100433.1541_BHG42-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"qurfV.0.Fb4.WMfHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hal, > The standard textbook description of extraction of energy from > magnets assumes that as energy is extracted, the magnetic domains > that were aligned to provide the initial field are realigned such > that the magnet's field energy drops. From this process > relatively little energy can be extracted. A fascinating matter, this. There are some permanent magnets (e.g. in the better Weller soldering irons) which can be cycled through their Curie point. So, above that point they lose their magnetism and regain it when they are cooled. What I find interesting about that is that I have this idea (which may be wrong) that the cooling direction (regaining of magnetism) is in fact *exothermic* - and there certainly is a thermal effect at the Curie point. Now, the interesting question is whether this exo- (or endo-) thermicity happens whether the magnet has been magnetised (aligned) or not. My own feeling is that some simple experiments on such materials would set some kinds of figures on the 'energy' of an aligned magnet, and of its 'fields' (them queer things like wot I don't quite believe in). Am I wrong? Wouldn't such experiments be a nice way of asking questions of standard textbook theories of magnets? I will say that most of the textbook descriptions I've seen seem to start off confidently and then gradually fade into vague sentences... Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 11:01:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA01947; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 10:54:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 10:54:07 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 09:58:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Competition requires losers Resent-Message-ID: <"h0XPB2.0.LU.E_fHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:23 PM 4/4/97, Jed Rothwell wrote: >To: Vortex > >Horace Heffner writes: > > Any loss of effort toward solving the energy problem is a loss to all > humanity. > >As a businessman, I disagree. We do not have infinite supplies of money, lab >equipment, or talented scientists. We must allocate resources by competition. [snip] > >- Jed You clearly are operating in a very different (business as usual) mindset. Free enterprize and competition are certainly useful means of producing a thriving econonomy. However it is not necessarily the most effective means for a war footing or for an all out effort where time is of the essence. There is significant debate amoung experts, and therefore reasonable risk, that we are facing a colossal global warming problem. A problem that can potentially cause dislocation or elimination of entire nations, destroy life in the oceans, destroy the most productive arible lands on earth, and destroy much of the biomass on the surface of the earth through fires, rapidly double the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, and eliminate most of the carbon dioxide recycling mechanisms. It is ironic that we don't know if the poles will melt before the ice ages to follow, or not. In any event we may very well be looking at billions of deaths from starvation, weather, and other disaters. Often, war and civil strive goes hand in hand with population dislocations and food shortges. It is even possible that life supporting equilibrium is beyond restoration. Volcanic activity may have masked the degree of greenhouse effect advancement, and precipitous feedback mechanisms, like methane release from oceans, or methane and CO2 release from the tundra, may acellerate the warming at many times the rates currently modelled. If there is even a 1 percent risk some of the above is true, then an all out massive effort to solve the warming problem is justified. The earth does not even have enough scientists to amass the effort that is justified on even a purely economic basis, much less humanitarian. If you were in a room with 100 people, and you knew there was a 1 percent chance that 30 of you would soon be executed, cost would be no object in getting out of the room. Personally, I would not delay by waiting to look for the lowest bidder to get me out of the room. Life is not a zero sum game. We can all lose. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 11:46:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA27803; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:42:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:42:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3346BA90.1A9C gorge.net> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 12:48:16 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets References: <199704051529.HAA18856 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"r81JN2.0.Ko6.rigHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg: My education and knowledge base is not sufficient for me to attempt to defend this "idea" adequately before serious scientists. My *opinion* is not derived from superior knowledge, but from basic logic. 1. Iron cores of transformers, etc. are subject to complete reversal of the magnetic fields induced in them 50-60 times per second for decades. Is it reasonable to assume that "domains" consisting of 10^15 atoms could rotate 180 degrees, 120 times per second, without common friction at the Bloch walls causing a rapid meltdown? Or, is friction magically absent in this particular case? 2. In another discussion site (which I frequent) a question was raised: "What caused the magnetization of lodestone?" No one has come up with anything like a reasonable answer. If permanent magnetism is induced by a High powered magnetic field, to align the domains, where did this powerful magnetic field come from?? If, on the other hand, the atoms/molecules of magnetite were in solution, they could be aligned by a relatively small magnetic field, assuming that field held true while the solution hardened. 3. As to whether electrons "spin around" the nucleus; or if they "spin" around their own axis, I don't have any idea. BUT Assuming that both nuclei and electrons "spin," and that these spins somehow cause magnetic fields, is it not reasonable that these spins can be aligned to an external field (even within their lattice) more easily than can be "domains" of 10^15 atoms? Is it reasonable to assume that atoms in a crystal lattice are not free to align with an external magnetic field, but that much larger "domains" can align easily? I know this isn't any kind of proof, but maybe it will stimulate some "outside the square" thinking. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 11:49:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA10017; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:48:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:48:05 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:49:56 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Synthetic Food Resent-Message-ID: <"WaYj82.0.RS2.qngHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > We still don't know the full value of all the chemicals provided by >food stuffs. By what conceit do we think that our chemistry will any time >soon (give or take a decade) identify the full range of necessary chemicals >to include in a truly adequate diet? Actually, we know lots more than most poeple realize. There are people who have been living now for about 40 years on intervenous feeding (since when this therapy started in the 1950s). Usually these are people who for some reason have completly lost the ability to handle food. They do not seem to suffer from nutritional deficiencies. Therefore, what is put into the intervenous 'feed bags' must be complete. The feed fluid is synthetic. It includes all known required minerals and vitamins, etc. Contrary to popular belief, there are no major missing nutritional requirements remaining to be discovered that are available only in 'natural' foods. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 12:34:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA03292; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 12:31:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 12:31:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Synthetic Food To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:31:04 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Schaffer@gav.gat.com" at Apr 5, 97 11:49:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hP8Fb3.0.Kp.SQhHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael J. Schaffer wrote: > Contrary to > popular belief, there are no major missing nutritional requirements > remaining to be discovered that are available only in 'natural' foods. If you are talking about people enmasse, as if farm animals, where a certain percentage loss is acceptable to the profit margin, then your statement might be true. However, there are plenty of illnesses that respond to nutritional regimes, and it would be folly to suggest that all possible nutritional deviations have been discovered and cured. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 12:36:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA02936; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 12:28:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 12:28:20 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:27:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970405152723_-833806120 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Resent-Message-ID: <"MO-Ny2.0.gj.VNhHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 4/5/97 12:17:04 PM, Chris wrote: <> You're right about that. As far as the subtleties about exothermic and endothermic magnetization changes, you have outstripped my level of knowledge and left me in your dust! Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 12:57:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA22257; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 12:55:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 12:55:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3346BC69.3173 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 15:56:09 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tom gorge.net CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets References: <199704051529.HAA18856 mx1.eskimo.com> <3346BA90.1A9C@gorge.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"j8ugS.0.gR5.4nhHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Miller wrote: > (snip) "What caused the magnetization of lodestone?" No one has > come up with anything like a reasonable answer. If permanent > magnetism is induced by a High powered magnetic field, to > align the domains, where did this powerful magnetic field > come from?? In my part of Ohio, we have about 35 "thunderstorm-days" per year. On average, I should expect about 15 strikes per year in the square mile around my home. Now, a square mile contains 5280^2 = 27,878,400 square feet. So, in 27,878,400/15 = 1,858,560 years, every square foot for a square mile around my house will have a strike to ground of maybe 20,000 amp. I think that if there is a magnitizable mineral around here withen a few feet of the surface - it has a pretty good chance of being magnetized. Geological changes, of course, will change the details. Try building a 20,000 amp-turn coil sometime, and you can get a good feel of what a 20 kA stroke could do! Earthquakes and other crust- dymamic events could also cause large surge currents near various minerals. Just one answer to your question above. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 14:10:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA00273; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:07:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:07:45 -0800 Date: 05 Apr 97 17:05:15 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Message-ID: <970405220514_100433.1541_BHG37-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"DlMWb3.0.B4.mqiHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hal, > As far as the subtleties about exothermic and endothermic > magnetization changes, you have outstripped my level of knowledge > and left me in your dust! Ha Ha. Well, that's my good laugh for the day. Seriously, Hal, if an exothermic/endothermic change occurs at the Curie point (as I've read in a few places, even if I can't recall which way it goes) - and I'm not talking about a crystalline change which can occur in ferromagnetic materials at an elevated temp (not the Curie point) - then that energy change must be related to the change from being a magnet to not being one or vice-versa - I presume. And is a 'hard' ferromagnetic material any different if the 'domains' are aligned? Personally, I'll bet the exo/endothermic change happens just the same ... and if it does, then what of the energy which is supposed to be in a magnet by virtue of being aligned? And what if the change is endothermic (as I recall) when the field dissipates at the Curie point? And you can trap the energy released when a field changes, so ... you can get some as the field collapses, *and* when it re-forms as the material cools through the Curie point. Um. Makes yer fink, dunnit? Like, if the 'domains' (in quotes because I'm not sure I believe in domains either) are randomly oriented, then they are each making an itsy-bitsy teeny-weeny yellow-polka-dot 'magnetic field', right? Why should there then be any difference if they are aligned? One thing I recall also is that this thermal effect is pretty small. Does that help? As for this being subtle, it seems crude and basic to me. The only reason I'm not seduced by the mathematics of the theories is that I am not really capable of following it. I'm not proud of my incapacity, I just have to sit in the cheap seats and try to find easy tests for the theories. Is mathematics a singular noun? I think so, but one says, "my trousers are such-and-such a colour," don't we? But a pair ("two items") of trousers is singular? Isn't it a wonderful world? We all find ourselves believing in things for which I can find no compelling evidence (photons and fields and stuff), and we refer to singular things in the plural. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 14:34:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA07812; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:33:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:33:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3346E295.2E86 gorge.net> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 15:39:01 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fstenger interlaced.net CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets References: <199704051529.HAA18856 mx1.eskimo.com> <3346BA90.1A9C@gorge.net> <3346BC69.3173@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CFFUL2.0.zv1.aCjHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank: Of course, *lots* of current, BUT, is it directed? That is, I understand thatPMs are made by placing the close proximity to an electromagnet consisting of a "coil," and maybe a "core." These produce a polar, cohernet magnetic field, which engenders a similar magnetic field in the putative permanent magnet. Any ideas how a lightning strike could go around even a one turn coil?? Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 14:43:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA14632; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:38:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:38:33 -0800 (PST) From: RMCarrell aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 17:37:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970405173740_-1503322541 emout05.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Resent-Message-ID: <"MP5Th.0.Ya3.dHjHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: With respect to the curie point switch in some soldering irons, I believe there are two elements; a magnet which is not heated beyond its curie point and a chunk of iron alloy which can be. Thus it is the iron armature that is/is-not attracted, operating the switch to the heater element, not the permanent magnet. By proper thermal design, one can assure that the permanent magnet never gets too hot. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 15:06:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA15593; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:04:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:04:21 -0800 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:03:31 PST8PDT Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <60314B6440 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"9VOG1.0.Hp3.pfjHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Frank: > > Of course, *lots* of current, BUT, is it directed? > > That is, I understand thatPMs are made by placing the > close proximity to an electromagnet consisting of a > "coil," and maybe a "core." These produce a polar, > cohernet magnetic field, which engenders a similar > magnetic field in the putative permanent magnet. > > Any ideas how a lightning strike could go around even > a one turn coil?? > > Tom Miller Even a current carrying wire with no turns will create a magnetic field right? The only thing needed for a magnetic field to be generated is moving charge. Of course it greatly helps if you can wrap the wire around a core so the entire length of wire can be used to generate the field around the core, but when we are dealing with lighning, one pass may be enough. Does anyone know if lodestone is more common to those areas prone to electrical storms? Probably not too many geologists here--oh well... JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 15:19:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA19903; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:15:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:15:38 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970405231413.006bc560 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 18:14:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Resent-Message-ID: <"Goozi3.0.Sr4.LqjHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:08 PM 4/5/97 EST,Chris Tinsley wrote: >What I find interesting about that is that I have this idea (which may >be wrong) that the cooling direction (regaining of magnetism) is in >fact *exothermic* - and there certainly is a thermal effect at the Curie >point. > >Now, the interesting question is whether this exo- (or endo-) thermicity >happens whether the magnet has been magnetised (aligned) or not. > >My own feeling is that some simple experiments on such materials would >set some kinds of figures on the 'energy' of an aligned magnet, and of >its 'fields' (them queer things like wot I don't quite believe in). > >Am I wrong? Wouldn't such experiments be a nice way of asking questions >of standard textbook theories of magnets? I will say that most of the >textbook descriptions I've seen seem to start off confidently and then >gradually fade into vague sentences... > >Chris > This material is covered both for paramagnetic, ferromagnetic, and antiferromagnetic materials. Try "The Physical Principles of Magnetism", A. Morrish, Wiley Press (19966) There derivation is roughtly this: The specific heat at constant applied magnetic field intensity (H) is determined by spin-lattice relaxation measurements. As an example, for paramagentic materils, CH - CM = [C H^2 ]/ T^2 whre CM and CH are the usual specific heats at constant magnetic field intensity and constant magnetization. C is the Curie constant. H is the applied magnetic field intensity. thus CH = (CM*T^2 + C*H^2) _________________ T^2 Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 15:22:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA19917; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:18:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:18:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970405231639.00690be8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 18:16:39 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Hydrino-Deutrino Threat? Resent-Message-ID: <"YtAGp.0.7t4.fsjHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:43 AM 4/5/97 +0000, Frederick wrote: >Although the theorized "Hydrinos-Deutrinos" promise an abundance >of low cost energy they may also have a down side.Once formed they >will not be inert like helium as proposed, but somewhat like neutrons >they should be able to go into a nucleus and cause a plethora of >thermonuclear reactions. >This is great for the Hot Fusion effort where they could be fed into >a "Tokamak" for the fissioning of about any nucleus giving the associated >energy release and other products. But, in living tissue they could >cause transmutation of potassium into calcium as is indicated by the >potassium deficiency in the world ocean, or other such reactions. >When it comes to getting unlimited quantities of "free" energy there >is a price to pay isn't there? Not sure the data support this notion: > "But, in living tissue they could >cause transmutation of potassium into calcium as is indicated by the >potassium deficiency in the world ocean, or other such reactions." [Frederick J. Sparber" ] Is there a potassium deficiency in the world? or the ocean? Does it imply any such transmutation? FACTS READILY AVAILABLE: 1) Potassium makes up ~2.40% of the lithosphere vs. sodium (2.63%). There is no absence of potassium in the lithosphere. 2) For the most part potassium minerals are insoluble. So it is insolubility vs. transmutation. And insolubility is the far more likely reason. 3) BTW, potassium is present in sylvite, polyhalite, and carnallite which are present as extensive deposits located within what appear by fossils to be ancient sea beds Therefore, potassium was also present in archaeoceans. Therefore, such statement re: K, oceans, transmutation is probably much more than speculative. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 15:23:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA20160; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:19:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:19:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970405231752.006cbe58 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 18:17:52 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Synthetic Food Resent-Message-ID: <"Zk8p12.0.rw4.ktjHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:31 PM 4/5/97 -0600, you wrote: >Michael J. Schaffer wrote: >> Contrary to >> popular belief, there are no major missing nutritional requirements >> remaining to be discovered that are available only in 'natural' foods. > >If you are talking about people enmasse, as if farm animals, where a >certain percentage loss is acceptable to the profit margin, then your >statement might be true. > >However, there are plenty of illnesses that respond to nutritional >regimes, and it would be folly to suggest that all possible nutritional >deviations have been discovered and cured. > >-- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - > > Nothing like an on-topic post The requirements of nutrition are known for normal humans, and thus the nutritional deficiencies are known. Furthermore, they often depend upon ratios of two nutrients. For example, total starvation (marasmus) is quite different from protein-calorie malnutrition (kwashiorkor) both by behavior and appearance of the children afflicted with this pathologies. The kwashiorkor children have big livers and are frequently of bad disposition compared to the children with total starvation (marasmus). The presence of cassava (high calorie, low protein) in the kwashiorkor children causes their livers to enlarge, and prevents muscle breakdown (gluconeogenesis). However, muscle breakdown also would have supplied their brains with amino acids, which probably accounts for the dispositional difference. Look for marasmus in the starving children of Africa, and kwashiorkor in the starving children of the Caribbean. BTW there may be enough food and vitamins to correct much of this starvation and to prevent incredible amounts of nutritional deficiency disease (for example vitamin A-deficiency-induced keratomalacia in the Indian subcontinent). The problem is distribution. Nonetheless, John Logajan is quite correct however, that there are regimes, probably vitamin and mineral metabolism excesses, and drug interactions, (and less possibly a role for excess doses against some pathological conditions)which are not fully known as yet. An important subject this, too. Mitchell Swartz, MD, ScD From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 15:27:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA20896; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:23:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:23:56 -0800 (PST) Date: 05 Apr 97 18:22:00 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Message-ID: <970405232159_100433.1541_BHG39-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"c2K0K1.0.N65.5yjHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike, > With respect to the curie point switch in some soldering irons, I > believe there are two elements; a magnet which is not heated > beyond its curie point and a chunk of iron alloy which can be. > Thus it is the iron armature that is/is-not attracted, operating > the switch to the heater element, not the permanent magnet. By > proper thermal design, one can assure that the permanent magnet > never gets too hot. I stand corrected - well, sit actually. But none of that changes the fact that some ferromagnetic materials *will* lose and recover their magnetism when cycled through their Curie point - and the (maybe foolish) questions I asked. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 15:30:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA24015; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:28:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:28:07 -0800 Message-ID: <01BC4221.39C1FDE0 ppp429.enterprise.net> From: Mike Butcher To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Competition requires losers Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 00:25:45 +0100 Encoding: 62 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"2JA5x3.0.8t5.60kHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote about Jed's comments: You clearly are operating in a very different (business as usual) mindset. Free enterprize and competition are certainly useful means of producing a thriving econonomy. However it is not necessarily the most effective means for a war footing or for an all out effort where time is of the essence. >Discussion on Global warming evidence snipped> If there is even a 1 percent risk some of the above is true, then an all out massive effort to solve the warming problem is justified. The earth does not even have enough scientists to amass the effort that is justified on even a purely economic basis, much less humanitarian. If you were in a room with 100 people, and you knew there was a 1 percent chance that 30 of you would soon be executed, cost would be no object in getting out of the room. Personally, I would not delay by waiting to look for the lowest bidder to get me out of the room. Yes but we have been asked to expend a huge amount of "cost no object" effort on growing food without additives, population control, in the 70''s preparing for the ice age, preparing for an asteroid/ballistic missile collision, combating communism, herpes and AIDS depending on who's baby it is and what is the flavour of the month we are now having to finance a battle against a threat of global warming. It is obvious Horace that you perceive the risk to be very high (even though statistically your example above gives your chances of dying at less than 0.4 percent but I understand it was only an example). The problem I have is that for you to live in comfort you need to get someone to confiscate my own and many other peoples property to distribute it to a group of scientists in the hope that they may be able to help out with the situation. I am already at the risk of imprisonment handing my goods over to experts who know best how to educate our children, organise our health, organise farm production and do numerous other things that beggar (or probably bugger) the imagination. Call me old fashioned but I believe that there are things worse than death. Many pioneer Americans died establishing the new world where they could be free to prosper and raise their children. Often they risked death by starvation or by hostile natives. On the face of it I would have been far less risky to remain put and face excessive taxation, political instability and some social deprivation but as we have seen throughout history, people are often prepared to die rather than face tyranny and tyranny would have to prevail to finance the alleviate of all perceived threats to our existence. The irony is that the more you deny people the right to do what they will with their own property the less they care about property in general, including their own environment. Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow it will be taken off you anyway and given to a group of experts who will solve all our problems. Life is not a zero sum game. We can all lose. There is more to life than just survival. Best regards, Mike Butcher. The Kuyper Foundation From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 15:32:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA24703; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:31:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:31:07 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: tom gorge.net Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:20:42 PST Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Message-ID: <19960406.152044.6718.3.tv juno.com> References: <199704051529.HAA18856 mx1.eskimo.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-5,9-28 From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan) Resent-Message-ID: <"n18l11.0.j16.u2kHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There are a number of good books on ferromagnetism that explain this, some of which are clearly written and entertaining. I believe the idea is that the domains do not rotate but rather that the atomic magnets flip at the boundaries (Bloch Walls) of the domains where there is the greatest stress. Apparently the domains do not flip but rather they grow in a particular direction. This may happen abruptly as in the Barkhausen Effect when internal energy thresholds are attained that temporarily restrain growth a particular domain. >1. Iron cores of transformers, etc. are subject to complete >reversal of the magnetic fields induced in them 50-60 times >per second for decades. Is it reasonable to assume that "domains" >consisting of 10^15 atoms could rotate 180 degrees, 120 times per >second, without common friction at the Bloch walls causing a >rapid meltdown? Or, is friction magically absent in this >particular case? > >Is it reasonable to assume that atoms in a crystal lattice >are not free to align with an external magnetic field, but that >much larger "domains" can align easily? > >I know this isn't any kind of proof, but maybe it will >stimulate some "outside the square" thinking. > >Tom Miller > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 16:43:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA13790; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:39:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:39:55 -0800 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Hydrino-Deutrino Threat? Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 00:39:13 +0000 Message-ID: <19970406003910.AAA7360 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"EZcd-2.0.ON3.Q3lHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:16 PM 4/5/97 +0000, Mitchell wrote: > >At 10:43 AM 4/5/97 +0000, Frederick wrote: >>Although the theorized "Hydrinos-Deutrinos" promise an abundance >>of low cost energy they may also have a down side.Once formed they >>will not be inert like helium as proposed, but somewhat like neutrons >>they should be able to go into a nucleus and cause a plethora of >>thermonuclear reactions. >>This is great for the Hot Fusion effort where they could be fed into >>a "Tokamak" for the fissioning of about any nucleus giving the associated >>energy release and other products. But, in living tissue they could >>cause transmutation of potassium into calcium as is indicated by the >>potassium deficiency in the world ocean, or other such reactions. >>When it comes to getting unlimited quantities of "free" energy there >>is a price to pay isn't there? > > Not sure the data support this notion: > > > "But, in living tissue they could > >cause transmutation of potassium into calcium as is indicated by the > >potassium deficiency in the world ocean, or other such reactions." > [Frederick J. Sparber" ] > > > Is there a potassium deficiency in the world? or the ocean? The data I found on sea water, CRC Handbook of Chem & Physics 72nd ed. Element Sea Water mg/liter Earth abundance mg/kg Dead Sea** Na 10,500 23,600 5.5 to 11.65 Cl 19,000 130.00 65.87 to 67.66 K 380.00 20,900 1.60 to 1.85 Mg 1,350 23,300 13.2 to 15.99 Ca 400.00 41,500 1.51 to 6.64 ** Grams/100 grams of liquid > > Does it imply any such transmutation? So you have a 3 to 1 ratio of Na/K in the Dead Sea, comparble ratios in "fresh water" lakes and streams and a 27 to 1 ratio in the World's Ocean. No solubility problem. Where did the Potassium go, and where is the Chlorine coming from? > > > FACTS READILY AVAILABLE: > 1) Potassium makes up ~2.40% of the lithosphere vs. sodium (2.63%). > > There is no absence of potassium in the lithosphere. > > > 2) For the most part potassium minerals are insoluble. > > So it is insolubility vs. transmutation. > And insolubility is the far more likely reason. > > 3) BTW, potassium is present in sylvite, polyhalite, and carnallite >which are present as extensive deposits located within what appear >by fossils to be ancient sea beds > Therefore, potassium was also present in archaeoceans. > >Therefore, such statement re: K, oceans, transmutation >is probably much more than speculative. Thanks for the geology lesson. The research by Kervran (sp?) in the 1950's that led to his "incredible conclusion" that potassium was being "transmuted" to calcium in humans and poultry, has drawn a bit of skepticism, hasn't it? :-) > > Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) > > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 17:01:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA00701; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:58:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:58:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3346F4BE.550A microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 10:26:30 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Simple OU Device.] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4FB936CC2EDD" Resent-Message-ID: <"L75a83.0.sA.HLlHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4FB936CC2EDD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile --------------4FB936CC2EDD Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <3346F46B.139E microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 10:25:07 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Simple OU Device. References: <199704051624.IAA29844 iceland.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Randall wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > >> Is your invention similar to the rotary magnetic device USA patent > >> 4,443,776? Do you think that unit would self rotate? > > > >I have simulated the idea in this patent (4,443,776) and can't see how > >it can work. The magnets will generate lobes of flux from their faces > >and edges. These lobes are conservative and have flux vectors which > >will not support rotation. > > > >> I've built 5,594,289 and 5,304,881 with no self-rotation or torque. > > > >I have also simulated these patents and would agree with you. > > > >> Best Regards, > >> Michael Randall > > > >Hi Michael, > > > >My invention is NOT like any of these. > > > >Seems the US patent office allows junk patents, which in the real world > >don't work. Oh well, guess it keeps people employed and attorneys in > >nice life styles. > > > >-- > >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au > >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > > 61 18 833 461 Mobile > > Hi Greg, > > Thanks for info. It is nice to have a computer software program to test the > magnetic fields of the arranged magnets before actually building the model. > I'll hold off on building patent 4,443,776 and await for info on your > invention model. > > Did you also test your model on the computer program before building it? If > so did the software make the correct predictions? My simulator only does 2d modeling. I built the first model without simulation, somehow I just knew now to build it. The second unit where I tried to close the loop was built with the help of the simulator and it didn't work. I am now doing heavy simulations to understand why the first unit works (it still does) and the second doesn't. > Does your model use standard magnetics or will we need to manufacture > special magnetic shapes? Common garden variety stuff. > Good Fortune, > Michael Randall > > BTW keep up the posts on magnetic theory. I only have limited reading info > on magnetic theories. Will your model rewrite the books or does it match > current theory? Hi Michael, As I see it, there are no problems with current theory. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile --------------4FB936CC2EDD-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 19:00:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA01537; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 18:58:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 18:58:04 -0800 Message-ID: <334710AB.6D4 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 12:25:39 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets References: <199704051529.HAA18856 mx1.eskimo.com> <3346BA90.1A9C@gorge.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FaNvM3.0.nN.v4nHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Miller wrote: > > Greg: > > My education and knowledge base is not sufficient for me to > attempt to defend this "idea" adequately before serious scientists. > > My *opinion* is not derived from superior knowledge, but from > basic logic. > > 1. Iron cores of transformers, etc. are subject to complete > reversal of the magnetic fields induced in them 50-60 times > per second for decades. Is it reasonable to assume that "domains" > consisting of 10^15 atoms could rotate 180 degrees, 120 times per > second, without common friction at the Bloch walls causing a > rapid meltdown? Or, is friction magically absent in this > particular case? As I understand it, we are talking about rotation a group of atoms and I would suspect friction is not involved. > 2. In another discussion site (which I frequent) a question was > raised: "What caused the magnetization of lodestone?" No one has > come up with anything like a reasonable answer. If permanent > magnetism is induced by a High powered magnetic field, to > align the domains, where did this powerful magnetic field > come from?? If, on the other hand, the atoms/molecules of > magnetite were in solution, they could be aligned by a relatively > small magnetic field, assuming that field held true while the > solution hardened. My daughter is currently doing first year geology at Adelaide University and has shown me several examples of local magnetization. Seems as certain rocks go through a molten phase, their internal crystaline structure is able to align with the earth's field. Part the the study of geology uses this effect to study changes in the earth's magnetic field over time. > 3. As to whether electrons "spin around" the nucleus; or > if they "spin" around their own axis, I don't have any idea. > BUT > Assuming that both nuclei and electrons "spin," and that > these spins somehow cause magnetic fields, is it not > reasonable that these spins can be aligned to > an external field (even within their lattice) more easily > than can be "domains" of 10^15 atoms? In the info I posted earlier, it was stated that the cause of the alignment of atoms into domains was uncertain. Suggest you chase up info on the study of domains in thin strips of ferromagnetic material. With this material, the domains were visible and were the basis of the development of "Bubble Memory" systems. > Is it reasonable to assume that atoms in a crystal lattice > are not free to align with an external magnetic field, but that > much larger "domains" can align easily? Current theory says that the crystal is larger. When the crystals move they cause dimentional changes in the material which can be measured. By relating the field strength at which physical change occurs to the magnetic induction produced, it is shown that crystal movement only occurs around saturation. I therefore seems logical to assume that domain rotation and Bloch wall movement is responsible for most of the induction below saturation. > I know this isn't any kind of proof, but maybe it will > stimulate some "outside the square" thinking. > > Tom Miller Hi Tom, Hope the above is useful. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 19:10:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA29694; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 18:43:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 18:43:39 -0800 Date: 05 Apr 97 21:41:29 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Synthetic Food Message-ID: <970406024128_72240.1256_EHB60-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"DKOM41.0.uF7.QtmHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex This discussion has gotten off the track. We never proposed that *all* the food in a normal diet should be synthesized. If the technology can be perfected, Castano and I would advocate synthesizing some bulk staple foods in order to reduce hunger and avert famine. There is no need to make sure we supply all necessary nutrients because people would also eat naturally grown food. Perhaps in a thousand years all of our food could be safely synthesized, but that is another story. I realize that synthesizing foods would cause problems. It would disrupt third-world agricultural economies and employment. On balance, I worry more about hungry people than farmers. I realize they are often one and the same. Mitchell Swartz writes: BTW there may be enough food and vitamins to correct much of this starvation and to prevent incredible amounts of nutritional deficiency disease (for example vitamin A-deficiency-induced keratomalacia in the Indian subcontinent). The problem is distribution. There is more than enough food in the world to eliminate all starvation and all nutrition related disease. Unfortunately, most of the extra food is in places like the U.S. and Australia, and there is no practical, economical way to get it to the hungry people. Distribution is a major problem, along with storage, refrigeration, preservation, milling, and so on. The biggest problem is that the hungry people cannot afford to buy the food, even if we sold it at cost. Agriculturally produced food is too expensive. The disruption of food supplies is often caused by war, a problem technology cannot fix. Many of the technical problems could be solved with cheap cold fusion energy (assuming it is successfully commercialized). But whether they *will* be solved will depend on politics. Based on the past performance of third world governments and industry, I am not optimistic. The advantage of synthetic food is that it could be produced close to the populations that need the food, using raw materials like oil which do not spoil or rot, and which are not consumed by rats and other vermin. You would not need large silos or refrigeration; you would only produce a two-week supply of food. In industry this is called a "just-in-time inventory." It is impossible with conventional agriculture, although we are beginning to see it with food factories and factory based aquiculture, which supplies a growing percent of U.S. freshwater fish. Production of synthetic food could be varied on demand. Large amounts of food could be produced in emergencies, such as floods or crop failures. And, the food would be far cheaper than the naturally grown variety, so people could afford to buy it. Let me add a personal note explaining why I feel confident to make these pronouncements about food and agricultural economy. It is one of the problems I have studied fairly extensively on my own. I have talked to a number of experts about it. Before I got involved in cold fusion and began spending every spare dollar on it, I was one of Oxfam America's "Major Donors" (their designation). This is one of the most effective privately funded third-world development agencies. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 20:00:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA19322; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 19:51:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 19:51:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <33471DB7.78AC interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 22:51:19 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tom gorge.net CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets References: <199704051529.HAA18856 mx1.eskimo.com> <3346BA90.1A9C@gorge.net> <3346BC69.3173@interlaced.net> <3346E295.2E86@gorge.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ua1ii2.0.qj4.rsnHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tom Miller wrote: > (snip) > Any ideas how a lightning strike could go around even > a one turn coil?? > It doesn't have to, Tom! True, the field lines around any current form closed loops, but if you place a piece of iron near a current, the iron will form a south pole where the flux loop enters the iron, and a north pole where the flux loop exits the iron. (For magnetization I guess we should really talk magneto-motive force, rather than flux.) Coils are used in electrical processes because one-turn or straight-thru circuits have currents that are not convenient to work with (too high). How would you like to design and sell a switch in the output circuit of the typical hand soldering gun? About 600 amps at a fraction of a volt. Coils are used to generate high fields because we like to work at higher voltages and lower currents in "most" practical circuits. I really know very little about material magnetics - but if you need a MMF of 200,000 amp-turns for about 200 microseconds across a 2 cm long slug of magnetic material, I can give it to you near the main conductor in my capacitor bank. However, if my aim was to make magnets, I would discharge the bank at a slower rate thru a rugged many-turn coil - as you suggest. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 20:47:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA27353; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 20:32:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 20:32:33 -0800 Message-ID: <334736D5.43EA gorge.net> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 21:38:29 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fstenger interlaced.net CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets References: <199704051529.HAA18856 mx1.eskimo.com> <3346BA90.1A9C@gorge.net> <3346BC69.3173@interlaced.net> <3346E295.2E86@gorge.net> <33471DB7.78AC@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1T3bd1.0.Jh6.WToHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank: I appreciate and understand your position, and I don't know enough to effectively counter it. So, not as an argument, but as a request for information: Can anybody tell me and vortex what the magnetic field around a conductor "looks like?" For instance, I understand that, (given conductor "A" carrying a substantial current) another conductor parallel to a will not have any current induced, as long as the current in "A" does not fluctuate. What if, conductor "A" (for instance, a copper rod 1 meter long) carrying 100 amps of non fluxuating current, is rotated rapidly around its long axis? Would it then induce a substantial current in a nearby parallel conductor? I guess another way to ask the question is: Do the "lines of flux" around a current carrying conductor form a circle around the conductor, or spiral forward along with the electrons moving inside the conductor? Or something else? I sure hope sombody knows. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 23:23:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA05686; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 23:22:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 23:22:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <33474F44.19D6 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 01:22:44 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tom gorge.net CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets References: <199704051529.HAA18856 mx1.eskimo.com> <3346BA90.1A9C@gorge.net> <3346BC69.3173@interlaced.net> <3346E295.2E86@gorge.net> <33471DB7.78AC@interlaced.net> <334736D5.43EA@gorge.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3EUu82.0.mO1.myqHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Miller wrote: > > Can anybody tell me and vortex what the magnetic field > around a conductor "looks like?" For instance, I understand > that, (given conductor "A" carrying a substantial current) > another conductor parallel to a will not have any current > induced, as long as the current in "A" does not fluctuate. > > What if, conductor "A" (for instance, a copper rod 1 meter > long) carrying 100 amps of non fluxuating current, is > rotated rapidly around its long axis? Would it then induce > a substantial current in a nearby parallel conductor? No, but it would during current build-up and during current decay. (I have never tried this experiment myself though!) > > I guess another way to ask the question is: Do the "lines > of flux" around a current carrying conductor form a circle > around the conductor, or spiral forward along with the > electrons moving inside the conductor? Or something else? > They form concentric circles centered at the current. They do not spiral. Having said that, I once mentioned on this list that if I ever sounded like I "thought" that I had a complete understanding of electromagnetics - would someone please hit me with a stick until I came to my senses. Dangerous with a little bit of knowledge - Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 00:06:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA07194; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 00:05:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 00:05:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <33475896.31B8 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 17:32:30 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"daezk2.0.8m1.garHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stuart Rae wrote: > > Some private observations about your questions:- > > Big snip < > Hi Stuart, My thoughts as well. Your questions have real meaning, but as your post was private, I haven't passed them on, but the concerns I believe I should share with all. Every time I do a test, I see kinetic energy increasing. I see a magnet doing real work. I know the energy has to come from somewhere. I am concerned about the source and possible other effects the utilization of this energy source will have. I know we live in a universe which offers no free lunches. Everything has a cost. I am concerned that we MUST understand the cost before we are asked to pay the price. I have no desire to unleash another dirty energy source as we are now lumbered with by the nuclear power industry. We must all understand that energy will never be free and we as searchers of new energy sources have a real duty to fully understand what we may be getting into. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 05:02:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA15677; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 04:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 04:55:50 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrino-Deutrino Threat? Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 11:55:32 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3349f577.7906224 mail.netspace.net.au> References: <19970405104322.AAA7268 LOCALNAME> In-Reply-To: <19970405104322.AAA7268 LOCALNAME> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_fjLZ3.0.hq3._yuHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 5 Apr 1997 10:43:25 +0000, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >This is great for the Hot Fusion effort where they could be fed into >a "Tokamak" for the fissioning of about any nucleus giving the associated >energy release and other products. But, in living tissue they could >cause transmutation of potassium into calcium as is indicated by the >potassium deficiency in the world ocean, or other such reactions. This is an interesting point. If Hydrinos exist, then we should find them in sea water. [snip] Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://netspace.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 05:02:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA15714; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 04:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 04:55:57 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 11:55:40 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <334f88c5.45621807 mail.netspace.net.au> References: <970405220514_100433.1541_BHG37-1 CompuServe.COM> In-Reply-To: <970405220514_100433.1541_BHG37-1 CompuServe.COM> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7Inyq2.0.Qr3.7zuHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 05 Apr 97 17:05:15 EST, Chris Tinsley wrote: [snip] >Is mathematics a singular noun? I think so, but one says, "my trousers are >such-and-such a colour," don't we? But a pair ("two items") of ^ >trousers is singular? > >Isn't it a wonderful world? We all find ourselves believing in things >for which I can find no compelling evidence (photons and fields and >stuff), and we refer to singular things in the plural. It aint the trousers as is singular, it's the pair.:) Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://netspace.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 05:02:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA15723; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 04:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 04:55:57 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 11:55:29 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3348e8a5.4623766 mail.netspace.net.au> References: <3345BD73.116F microtronics.com.au> In-Reply-To: <3345BD73.116F microtronics.com.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tCC4r.0.Tr3.7zuHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 05 Apr 1997 12:18:19 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: [snip] >What I would ask you to think and comment about is the effect on the >energy source of a permanent magnet (IE the aligned spinning iron atom's >electrons), if we could get a magnet to deliver real work. > >Would the electrons of the iron atoms alter their energy levels? > >Would they slow down? > >Would they fall to a lower shell? > >Would the iron atom undergo a chemical / nuclear change if we could >extract energy from the spinning electrons? > >How much energy would be available in 1 cm^3 of magnetised iron before >the magnet would suffer some internal chemical / nuclear change? > >I am sure you understand my thoughts here. [snip] If Mills' Hydrino theory is correct, then you may be on to something. After all, if a hydrogen atom can have sub-shells, then so can all other atoms, including those of iron. Furthermore, Mills uses a catalyst to extract energy through collisions. But a collision is no more than an interaction between the electrical and magnetic fields of the electrons of atoms. So in a more general sense, it may also be possible to induce electrons to drop to subshells by passing their energy to a larger "all encompassing" field, rather than the small localised field of nearby atoms. If this is what you are doing, then in theory you could extract hundreds of keV from an individual atom, producing a shrunken atom as a result. Two things could happen to such atoms. They either stay "shrunk", and the build up of shrunken atoms eventually destroys the chemical structure of the magnet, or through collisions with other thermal atoms they regain their lost energy (cooling the magnet in the process). It should be pointed out that this latter possibility is very small, due to the size of the energy "steps" to the sub levels, compared to the average energy of thermal atoms (tens of eV's compared to milli-eVs of thermal energy). IOW only very few atoms at the very tail end of the Boltzman distribution would have the requisite energy. The bottom line is that most of them would stay shrunken. Depending on how many electrons drop to subshells, and how far "down" they drop, the energy produced would vary from 10 to 1000000 times normal chemical energy. Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://netspace.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 06:18:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA08282; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 05:24:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 05:24:39 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Barrels of Fun Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 12:24:02 +0000 Message-ID: <19970406122401.AAA9593 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"QRdo62.0.K12.6OvHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians: If a cylindrical "barrel" is stood with the central axis vertical and filled with water to 50 percent capacity the water will be at 50 percent of the height of the barrel. Now, if the barrel is laid over with the axis horizontal the water will stand at the diametrical line. However, if it is tilted off the vertical or horizontal at any angle, how does one "model" an equation for determining the quantity of liquid in the barrel as a function of the tilt angle? B, What will be the surface area of the liquid at any tilt angle with any given amount of fill? Sounds a bit like a problem for a fuel gage designer in Detroit? Simplicity is a matter of perspective, isn't it? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 06:53:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA13084; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 06:39:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 06:39:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3347A70D.7AE8 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 23:07:17 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Simple OU Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2kFyt.0.EC3.LUwHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Just a short progress report. I have built another demo / one shot unit based on the technology I used to build the closed loop unit. It doesn't work. I am doing a lot of QField sims to understand why. I very stronghy believe that failure teaches you more that success. It shows you very clearly that you didn't know as much as you thought. Like all effects, you need to get many things just so right. Get one wrong and you are dead. I am now building another demo / one shot unit based on the technology I intend to use in the closed loop unit. Will report back on further progress. Bye for now. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 08:16:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA18139; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 07:22:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 07:22:57 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Hydrino-Deutrino Threat? Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 14:22:19 +0000 Message-ID: <19970406142216.AAA14794 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"u4EFl2.0.HR4.07xHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:55 AM 4/6/97 +0000, Robin wrote: >On Sat, 5 Apr 1997 10:43:25 +0000, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >[snip] >>This is great for the Hot Fusion effort where they could be fed into >>a "Tokamak" for the fissioning of about any nucleus giving the associated >>energy release and other products. But, in living tissue they could >>cause transmutation of potassium into calcium as is indicated by the >>potassium deficiency in the world ocean, or other such reactions. >This is an interesting point. If Hydrinos exist, then we should find them >in sea water. >[snip] > > I think a carefully measured quantity of a potassium "salt" in a glass of water might show a attogram of change of potassium to calcium in a few days or so. This would be an indication of the presence of the Hydrino, wouldn't it? Regards, Frederick >Robin van Spaandonk >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Check out: http://netspace.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on >temperature. >"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." >PS - no SPAM thanks! >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 08:22:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA28282; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 08:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 08:20:25 -0700 (PDT) From: RMCarrell aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 11:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970406111931_1085760228 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: Vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Competiton and Food Resent-Message-ID: <"zbxze3.0.ov6.ryxHp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: First a salute to Jed for his forthright dedication to making the world a better place as a supporter of Oxfam and CF, and for his clear-sighted essays. I don't always agree but I read carefully what Jed has to say. Second, a nod to Mike Butcher for pointing out that vauge threats of disaster are one of the tools used by intellectual and political tyrants to coerce populations and collect power, then wealth. The great hope for mankind in the energy processes we nurture here is that they will ultimately be democratic, not easily controlled by a group (as contrasted with a mine, an oil well, a waterfall). The tragedy is that local politics and tribal warfare can ruin every prospect for a better life for the third world. It's been pointed out here that the basics of human nutrition are well enough understood to sustain life indefinitely through intravenous feeding, thus partially defeating my argument that there are nutritional unknowns that will make large scale food synthesis unwise. To which I would reply that important roles for neglected food chemicals are discovered routinely, which are necessary for optimum health, as constrasted with life support in a hospital. And Jed is right that partial food synthesis would be better than the marginal starvation which is endemic in a world where a shovel and some mosquito netting would be major advances in public health. But Jed's experience with Oxfam should be a caution against the well-intentioned introduction of high tech systems into a world incapable of supporting them, resulting in a cultural dissonance. A food synthesis plant would be just such a system. If you don't get the raw materials from the air and water, you are dependent on the largess of governments (politicians). To synthesize food -- even basic carbohydrates, not to mention amino acids and vitamins -- from air and water is a high tech trick. To package such a synthesizer for worldwide use is presently a dream. Yes, you can use a Walkman -- a very high tech device -- in a developing country, but the Walkman is not a process system that will eventually require maintenence. Plants have mastered the trick, which is why subsistence farming can be low tech and high yield commercial farming is high tech. Yes, the fertile areas of the world -- US, Austrailia, Argentina, parts of Eurasia, could feed the rest if the political "details" didn't get in the way. We hear talk in the US of food as a weapon to corece other countries to our way of thinking. But it would be better for all if the stupid tribal quarrels did not lay waste the land. Once again, energy holds the key. Given abundant energy, one can distribute food and other resources, but a new conception of economics will be necessary. If the energy were free, there is still the matter of the human effort to transport food from, say, Iowa to central Africa. What will Africa offer in excahnge, other than mineral resources and handcrafts? There have been attempts by poor landlocked nations to claim a share of wealth from mining the sea bed, on the theory that the sea is part of the common ownership of Mankind. I won't try to solve problems like that one. But I can only hope that one of the technologies we daily debate here can soon be packaged into a unit that can be used, and then manufactured, in the third world as a piece of appropriate technology -- along with the oilseed press, the bicycle potato-slicer, and the dual-piston, human powered irrigation pump that were shown last year at the Franklin Insititue as part of our African exhibit. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 10:29:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA08175; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 10:27:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 10:27:33 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 10:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704061727.KAA09056 germany.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: gwatson microtronics.com.au From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"XzKKI2.0.e_1.3qzHp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:07 PM 4/6/97 +0930, you wrote: >Hi All, > >Just a short progress report. > >I have built another demo / one shot unit based on the technology I used >to build the closed loop unit. It doesn't work. > >I am doing a lot of QField sims to understand why. I very stronghy >believe that failure teaches you more that success. It shows you very >clearly that you didn't know as much as you thought. > >Like all effects, you need to get many things just so right. Get one >wrong and you are dead. > >I am now building another demo / one shot unit based on the technology I >intend to use in the closed loop unit. > >Will report back on further progress. > >Bye for now. > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > 61 18 833 461 Mobile > Hi Greg, Glad to hear you are learning from the models and are still working to get it right. I wish we could help. Have you thought of doing a non-disclosure agreement? I am willing to help you build a unit. Are you building a larger unit of your current one shot or a smaller unit of the closed loop? Cater, in his book Awesome Life Force, on his magnet unit design said the magnetic rotor could only be 30 degrees of arc per rotor. In his design he would need 12 rotors to get a full rotation. I hope this helps. Sincerely, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 11:34:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA14100; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 11:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 11:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3347EC29.32DB loc1.tandem.com> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 10:32:09 -0800 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: CF chain reactions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DLzh22.0.ES3.Jh-Hp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Something has been bothering me since talking with Jim Reding about the CETI experiments last summer at ILENR. He said that 95% of the cells produced excess energy, but the ones that did not work, produce zero excess. With thousands of tiny beads per cell, the failures are unlikely to be caused by manufacturing defects in individual beads. You would expect the power output to be in proportion to the number of good beads, but never drop to zero. I think contamination should have the same effect -- some beads would gather the contaminants, and the rest would be free to produce excess. In order to match the data, the power output would have to vary nonlinearly with the number of good beads. This nonlinearity is most easily explained if there is a feedback mechanism. In other words, some working beads must increase or start the output from other beads. This type of chain reaction would require something to serve the same role as neutrons in a fission reaction. But whatever it is, it must be very difficult to measure from the outside of the cell, or it would have been discovered by now. There is not enough detectable alpha/beta/gamma to account for the effect. The same mediator needed to sustain the reaction may be needed to start it. The difficulty in reproducing experiments may not be due to the fuel, but to inefficient ways of starting it. The recent thread on the difficulty of measuring EUV makes it sound like a good candidate for the chain reaction mediator. If this is the case, it also suggests a way to start the reaction, even in cells that seem to be bad. What is the easiest way to generate intense EUV very close to a cell? -- Bob Horst From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 12:14:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA26971; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 11:58:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 11:58:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3347F28D.44C4 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 14:59:25 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: <3347A70D.7AE8 microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"J_7jr1.0.Hb6.o9_Hp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > Hi All, > > Just a short progress report. > It doesn't work. > I like your attitude, Greg! Just some thoughts in complete ignorance - 1. Would it be possible to make two identical units like your first that worked, and run them back-to-back in proper phase to make them close the loop? 2. Considering the high quality of your reporting, I hope you can eventually share the details of your efforts, whether following success or "failure". If you demonstrate that old conservation rules are at work here, it would be educational to ME to see just how you were fooled - too often negative experiments are swept under the rug, but I agree with you - the REAL learning comes from understanding the failures. Much success with your next configuration! Waiting to hear --------- Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 13:14:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA25003; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 13:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 13:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 11:16:09 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Competition requires losers Resent-Message-ID: <"-qnO82.0.b66.UE0Ip" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:25 AM 4/6/97, Mike Butcher wrote: [snip] >It is obvious Horace that you perceive the risk to be very high (even >though statistically your example above gives your chances of dying at less >than 0.4 percent but I understand it was only an example). The problem I >have is that for you to live in comfort you need to get someone to >confiscate my own and many other peoples property to distribute it to a >group of scientists in the hope that they may be able to help out with the >situation. [snip] > >There is more to life than just survival. > >Best regards, > >Mike Butcher. >The Kuyper Foundation About my "feelings" for risk, it is fair to say I perceive the risk to be a probability of about 0.5 that increasing global warming, including increasing extremes in weather patters and storms, is occuring and the increasing of the rate of warming unstoppable in our lifetimes. Further I might guess at 0.02 that over a billion people will die as a direct result of global warming, maybe 0.001 that every living thing will die. Other poulation risk values varrying accordingly. I clearly don't know exactly what the probabilites are, nor does anyone else, but do feel confident that none is zero, and none is 1.0. I think it is reasonable to say the probabilities seem to be growing as more studies are done and as the effects become more significant through time. Further, more potential runaway effects are being identified, like undersea methane, CO2 and methane release in the tundra, and plankton killoffs. Yes, you are right that we can't go off taxing everyone to death for every fad risk that appears, even if a lot of lives are involved. Maybe there should be an opportunity for individuals to exempt themselves from contributions to (and remedies from) things like AIDS, Alzheimers, etc. Maybe people should be able to post a funeral bond and declare themselves exempt from insurance and go ride motorcycles without helmets, and do various other presently illegal things that hurt only themselves. However, global warming and meteor hits are not individualizeable risks. These risks have significant expected values, and involve absolutely everyone. These are cases where one can not chose to risk only his own life. I think it is immoral to chose to live in the comfort of your own rights at the expense of significant risk of annihilation of the lives of every living thing and all generations to come. That is simply tyranny of a different kind. If it could be obtained it would also be tyranny of a minority or unimformed electorate, a very undemocratic and strange kind of freedom. The choice of non-existence of a people is certainly a choice of no freedom for that people. I just don't think politicians are looking at this issue in a sensible manner. I do believe that actuaries are, however. I suspect the insurance companies are beginning to wise up. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 14:27:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA03680; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 14:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 14:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960406222120.006c9850 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 17:21:20 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Hydrino-Deutrino Threat? Resent-Message-ID: <"rqoLu2.0.Cv.xG1Ip" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:39 AM 4/6/97 +0000, Frederick wrote: >So you have a 3 to 1 ratio of Na/K in the Dead Sea, comparble ratios in >"fresh water" lakes and streams and a 27 to 1 ratio in the World's Ocean. >No solubility problem. Where did the Potassium go, and where is the >Chlorine coming from? >> There is a solubility problem. Geologic texts discuss it. Furthermore, the ocean salts purportedly come from volcanic activity not land runoff - as your post incorrectly indicates. This is also the source of the chloride and the mix of anions. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 14:29:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA03758; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 14:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 14:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960406222146.006b442c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 17:21:46 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Resent-Message-ID: <"GiwJq2.0.Tw.5H1Ip" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:20 PM 4/6/96 PST, Tom Miller wrote: >"There are a number of good books on ferromagnetism that explain this, >some of which are clearly written and entertaining. I believe the idea is that the domains do not rotate but rather that the atomic magnets flip >at the boundaries (Bloch Walls) of the domains where there is the greatest stress. > >Apparently the domains do not flip but rather they grow in a particular >direction. This may happen abruptly as in the Barkhausen Effect when >internal energy thresholds are attained that temporarily restrain growth >a particular domain." Since this is vortex, it ought be pointed out that discontinuous sudden magnetization changes which occur in some polycrystalline materials may be ROTATIONAL Barkhausen effect. ;-)X Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 15:14:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA25607; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 15:09:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 15:09:20 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 18:08:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970406180807_-1670586275 emout03.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fwd: Another possible hydrogen fuel breakthrough Resent-Message-ID: <"eS1P51.0.yF6.By1Ip" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------------- Forwarded message: From: zap dnai.com (zeropoint) To: zap dnai.com Date: 97-04-03 12:31:39 EDT <---- Begin Forwarded Message ----> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David Book" To: zap dnai.com Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:12:19 -0500 Subject: Another possible hydrogen fuel breakthrough Reply-to: david.book ibm.net HYDROGEN IS POTENTIAL NEW ENERGY SOURCE __________________________________________________________________________ Copyright © 1997 Reuter Information Service MALVERN, Pa. (Apr 1, 1997 11:02 a.m. EST) - If Dr. Randell Mills is right, the way the world produces and uses energy is about to be radically transformed, along with science's understanding of the physics involved. If he is wrong, he will join a long line of failed seekers for the holy grail of cheap, safe and non-polluting energy. Mills has developed, and begun to demonstrate in laboratory tests, what he says is a very efficient and non-polluting means of producing energy from hydrogen. He says a fuel cell the size of a desk could in theory supply the electricity now produced by an eight-floor-high coal-fired boiler, and a 200-horsepower car engine the size of a suitcase could power a vehicle four times around the world on a single tank of water. The technology, and Mills's private company, BlackLight Power Inc., have begun to attract investment from the electricity industry and the support of some energy experts. A leading organization of physicists, however, calls his idea groundless, while even some who support the technology say its practical application remains at least a few years away. "Whoever has this technology can potentially dominate the energy industry," said Mills, a Harvard-trained medical doctor with additional education in engineering and chemistry. The technology is based on a theory of quantum physics that challenges principles that have governed the science for decades. Mills says the theory has been supported by experiments and observation. It holds that hydrogen can exist at a lower energy state than its common "ground" state, and the heat energy released in the transition to the lower state can be captured. FROM QUARKS TO THE COSMOS Mills told Reuters the theory explains phenomena ranging in scale from "(sub-atomic) quarks to the cosmos." In using it to make power, the cost of hydrogen, easily obtainable from water, would be minimal compared with fossil fuels, and there is more than enough water to last until "the end of the earth," he said. Capital costs also could be signifcantly lower than conventional power technology, Mills said, although others familiar with the technology said that remains to be seen. The by-product of the non-nuclear process is a hydrogen atom with a lower form of energy -- called a "hydrino" -- that floats off into space, he said. The other key ingredient in the process is potassium, which serves as a catalyst and can be constantly reused. The process takes place in a vacuum and instantly stops if the vacuum is breached, making it inherently safe, Mills said. Some experts, including a former top Reagan Administration nuclear energy official, say Mills is on the right track. The electricity industry has begun to get involved, investing money in the company and negotiating licensing deals. "I'm convinced that there is something of enormous impact here and it's only a question of time until we can garner the capital and infrastructure to take it into commercialization," said Shelby Brewer, assistant energy secretary under Reagan and former head of ABB Combustion Engineering, one of the world's largest makers of electrical generation equipment. REVOLUTION PREDICTED "If we can engineer this into the marketplace ... it will revolutionize energy production both for electricity and mobile applications," said Brewer, who now heads an energy consulting firm. He said he overcame his skepticism, born of thousands of unfounded new-power ideas he has seen, to work as an outside financial and strategic adviser to Mills. Others, including the country's leading organization of academic physicists, dismiss Mills and his hydrino theory out of hand. "It has no credibility whatever ... as far as I'm concerned Mills is not a scientist," said Robert Park, director of the Washington office of the American Physical Society. "There is virtually nothing that science does not know about the hydrogen atom," Park said. "The ground state is defined as the (energy) state below which you cannot go. ... The thought there is some state below the ground state is kind of humorous." But a Penn State University test done for BlackLight of a small fuel cell designed by Mills recorded heat production 100 times greater than that produced by "burning" hydrogen, another technology being studied as an energy source. The result was promising and consistent with his theory, the unpublished findings said. "The evidence presented in this report clearly suggests that an extraordinary phenomenon takes place ... this phenomenon appears to generate a tremendous amount of 'excess' heat." But the report urged a cautious approach be taken and said additional experimental work was required. Similar results have been obtained in other laboratories, including in a test run by Peter Jansson, an engineer and manager of market development for Atlantic Energy Inc. Jansson, who conducted the test independently of his company, said Atlantic Energy was "strongly considering" what he called a "strategic investment" in BlackLight Power. Last year, Oregon-based utility holding firm PacifiCorp invested $1 million in a stake in BlackLight Power, according to documents filed with Pennsylvania regulators. Mills has obtained a patent on his technology in Australia and said he expects to receive U.S. and European patents this year. In the process he has had to explain to patent examiners why his technology is not the same as "cold fusion," a low-temperature nuclear technology that also promised vast, cheap power, but which failed to stand up. His early work was watched by the cold-fusion camp and some research findings supporting his hydrino theory were published in a peer-reviewed journal of the American Nuclear Society, which has been an outlet for cold-fusion related research. TURNING IDEAS INTO BUSINESS Now is a timely moment to try to commercialize a new energy technology, experts say. The electrical industry worldwide is moving from tight regulation to a highly competitive market in which the producer of the cheapest power wins. "We are definitely willing to put some time and money into it (the technology)," said Tom Cassel, president of Reading Energy Co., a Philadelphia firm that commercializes advanced power-plant technology. "Is it at this point a fail-safe deal? It's still early to tell," he said. "The laboratory work is compelling (but) it's yet to be demonstrated on a large, self-sustained basis." Mills said plans are underway to build with another firm a test plant to produce about one megawatt of energy, equivalent to the amount needed to light a small shopping center. Cassel said he is negotiating a deal with BlackLight for Reading to retrofit older plants, shuttered because of expensive anti-pollution requirements or other economic factors, with the BlackLight hydrogen cells. He said he was at first skeptical of the technology and was warned by a senior Ivy League scientist who started reading Mills' theory that "these type of people are dangerous." But he said he and others who have studied the entire theory and seen the test results are convinced of its potential. "This is very real," he said. "It's a development which, if it keeps going in the way that a number of very qualified people think it's going to go ... it will be on the magnitude of the Edisons, the Einsteins, that type of scientific revolution." More information on Mills's theory and power process can be found on [4]BlackLight Power's World Wide Web site . (BlackLight Power's World Wide Web site is at: http://www.blacklightpower.com/ Their intro and background page is, indeed, a good place to start.) <---- End Forwarded Message ----> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 15:35:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA02204; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 15:34:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 15:34:21 -0700 Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 15:32:53 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: Barrels of Fun Sender: kurtz IMAP2.ASU.EDU To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Simeon for Win32 Version 4.0.9 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: NORMAL X-Authentication: none Resent-Message-ID: <"up_Up.0.MY.hJ2Ip" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 6 Apr 1997 12:24:02 +0000 "Frederick J. Sparber" wrote: > Vortexians: > > If a cylindrical "barrel" is stood with the central axis vertical > and filled with water to 50 percent capacity the water will be at > 50 percent of the height of the barrel. Now, if the barrel is laid > over with the axis horizontal the water will stand at the diametrical > line. However, if it is tilted off the vertical or horizontal at any > angle, how does one "model" an equation for determining the quantity > of liquid in the barrel as a function of the tilt angle? > The quantity of liquid in the barrel is constant, regardless of tilt. > B, What will be the surface area of the liquid at any tilt angle with > any given amount of fill? > > Sounds a bit like a problem for a fuel gage designer in Detroit? > > Simplicity is a matter of perspective, isn't it? :-) > > Regards, Frederick > Presuming you mean the area of the top surface of the water, simple, no, but not all that difficult. Sitting here suffering with a cold and looking for something to amuse me, I worked it out for you. Assume the radius of the cylinder is r and the height is h, and theta measures the angle of tilt from the vertical from 0 to pi / 2. Since usenet is not suited for equations, here is the answer I got in plain TeX format. You can probably decipher it, or better have someone run it off in TeX for you. No guarantees but, hey, the price is right: $$A(\theta) = \cases {\pi r^2\sec \theta, & \quad $0 \leq\ \theta \leq \arctan{h \over 2r}$\cr \pi r^2- r^2\sec\theta \arcsin{\sqrt{4r^2 - h^2 \cot^2\theta} \over r} + {h\sec\theta\sqrt{4r^2 - h^2 \cot^2\theta} \over 2}, & \quad $\arctan{h \over 2r} \leq \theta \leq {\pi \over 2}$ \cr 2rh, & \quad $\theta = {\pi \over 2}$ \cr }$$ \end Lynn Kurtz Department of Mathematics, ASU From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 15:48:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA12644; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 15:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 15:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <334824B0.47E1 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 08:03:20 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: <199704062156.HAA23697 orca.microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KKiLH2.0.953.8L2Ip" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ben Tammetta wrote: > > Hello Greg, > > I'm an EE and have been on the free energy list for about 2 years > I have been following your posts since you have been here... and > the quantity and quality of your posts give much credibilty to > your "Simple OU Device"......... I believe you. Thanks, I know how fragile trust is. The single shot device really does work. It shows a definate increase in kinetic energy. Score board so far : First unit ....... single shot ...................... works. This unit was built in 10 minutes from a idea that justed popped into my head as I sipped a glass of a very smooth South Australian Port. Second unit ...... close the loop ................... failed. This unit was built too quickly. Quality of research was not important. I thought I knew what I was doing. Wrong. Third unit ....... single shot ...................... failed. This unit was built using the above closed loop ideas and verified the construction method used was wrong. I was expecting this unit to fail. Forth unit ....... single shot ...................... works. This unit was build based on the construction method I will use in the next closed loop unit. I have a much better understanding of the effect now. > Anyways, > About your new device. > > I have always though that PM's can be used alone to make a motor and > have experimented with several configurations and variations of... > Hammel's devices, Stefan's PM Square and the Perigrus (sp?) wheel. > variations or PM Square may have potential > Perigrus is conservative and > Hammel may be onto something with the fluttering effect. I don't think so. I have built several spinners. Nice toy but nothing more. The hand movement supplies the energy. > I have asked myself the same questions about PMs in the past..... Can > energy be extracted, used without reducing the strength PM.... > > But had the most success with a linear version that consisted of 5 > PM stator segments in with iron pieces to contain unwanted magnetic > flux. I was able to produce a surprising constant linear > acceleration of a roll of magnets using these PM stators. It only > worked with a particular configuration or iron and PMs. It seemed > more that conservative to me.... but I was never EASILY to "close > the loop"... I have several designs to do so (rotational and > bi-linear) but have not have the time or materials to build them. I have build, simulated and test several versions of the Tomi device. I am 99% sure they are not OU. > Is this remotely similar to your "Simple OU Device"? NO. > Or does your device use any batteries, coils , electronics or > exotic metals? NO. > I decided NOT to base my designs on these parts > but only use them for enhancing results. > > I can elaborate on anything I mentioned above it you like. > > If you reply to me with anymore detials of you device, you have my > word I will keep it confidential. but i understand if you don't. > > Good luck Greg, closing the loop... and I hope you can share it with > the rest of us on the list soon. > > You can forward this or parts of this to the list if you like. > > Ben Tammetta, > ben tammetta.com > > ###################### > # Ben Tammetta # > # ben clubelite.com # > ###################### -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 17:04:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA24836; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 17:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 17:01:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Barrels of Fun Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 00:00:51 +0000 Message-ID: <19970407000048.AAA158 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"O_4a-3.0.y36.gb3Ip" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:32 PM 4/6/97 +0000, Lynn wrote: > >On Sun, 6 Apr 1997 12:24:02 +0000 "Frederick J. Sparber" > wrote: > > >> Vortexians: >> >> If a cylindrical "barrel" is stood with the central axis vertical >> and filled with water to 50 percent capacity the water will be at >> 50 percent of the height of the barrel. Now, if the barrel is laid >> over with the axis horizontal the water will stand at the diametrical >> line. However, if it is tilted off the vertical or horizontal at any >> angle, how does one "model" an equation for determining the quantity >> of liquid in the barrel as a function of the tilt angle? >> > >The quantity of liquid in the barrel is constant, regardless of tilt. Not if you are a farmer in the Appalachian hills. :-) The problem is real for fuel tanks that are supposed to be horizontal. I was visiting a friend in the West Texas high plains that was grumbling about not knowing how much diesel fuel was left in several such tanks of about 300 gallon capacity that were strategically located on his 3,000+ acre farm. There was a fill hose that came out of the bottom front with a hand valve at the end of it. When I pointed out to him that all he had to do was raise the hose-end-valve above the level of the tank, open the spigot and slowly lower the hose until the fuel came out, it would tell him how full the tank was. Stammering with an embarrassed grin he took me to task and asked; "yes, but, how many gallons". :-) > > > >> B, What will be the surface area of the liquid at any tilt angle with >> any given amount of fill? >> >> Simplicity is a matter of perspective, isn't it? :-) >> > >Presuming you mean the area of the top surface of the water, simple, >no, but not all that difficult. Sitting here suffering with a cold >and looking for something to amuse me, I worked it out for you. Assume >the radius of the cylinder is r and the height is h, and theta measures >the angle of tilt from the vertical from 0 to pi / 2. Since usenet >is not suited for equations, here is the answer I got in plain TeX >format. You can probably decipher it, or better have someone run it >off in TeX for you. No guarantees but, hey, the price is right: > >$$A(\theta) = \cases > {\pi r^2\sec \theta, & \quad $0 \leq\ \theta \leq \arctan{h \over 2r}$\cr > \pi r^2- r^2\sec\theta \arcsin{\sqrt{4r^2 - h^2 \cot^2\theta} \over r} > + {h\sec\theta\sqrt{4r^2 - h^2 \cot^2\theta} \over 2}, & \quad > $\arctan{h \over 2r} \leq \theta \leq {\pi \over 2}$ \cr > 2rh, & \quad $\theta = {\pi \over 2}$ \cr >}$$ >\end > >Lynn Kurtz >Department of Mathematics, ASU > > Thanks Again for the equations Lynn. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 18:04:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA29372; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 18:02:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 18:02:09 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970407010143.0066c858 sparc1> X-Sender: kennel sparc1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 10:01:43 +0900 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Elliot Kennel Subject: RE: Stress on loaded CF cathodes; Heavy metal target Resent-Message-ID: <"BfEy33.0.sA7.FU4Ip" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Joe Kass writes: >> My question was that since the hydogen is already pack together in the metal matrix, would it not be easier to get them to the point of fusion??? This may actually be a way to keep the hot fusion guys happy as well.<< Hi Joe, I think you have touched on a very important question. First let me reframe it a little. If we narrow mindedly define the goal of hot fusion as achieving energy breakeven (i.e., excess nuclear heat), then Pd-D hot fusion targets are not very good. As Mike Schaffer explained elsewhere, light nuclei are required if you are to have any hope of achieving efficient reactions. Many different targets have been tried, and I think we know this pretty well. BUT if we are interested in asking whether there is new physics to be found, then there are some VERY exciting things which have been discovered recently (but which have been largely ignored for some reason). For instance, check out some of J. Kasagi's findings on accelerating deuterons in titanium targets. My favorite article occurs in Genshikaku Kenkyu, Vol 40 No 5, "Low Energy D+D reactions in Metal." Or there is a similar, but not so far-reaching article in the ICCF-6 proceedings p. 259. Anyway, what Kasagi finds is that at low energy accelerator bombardment of deuterons, there is a highly anomalous three-body reaction which occurs with a reaction probability six orders of magnitude above conventional theory. In other words, you fire a fairly slow (15keV) deuteron at the target, and somehow it interacts with TWO target deuterons. This is sort of like nailing the 7-10 split in bowling when the lane is a mile wide. Even Douglas Morrison, one of CF's sternest critics, was very impressed with Kasagi's results and suggested that it may help to explain the missing solar neutrino flux problem (Morrison's trip report, as well as my own can be found at http://webster.skypoint.net/members/jlogajan/). So to my thinking, Kasagi has proven that nuclear reactions in the solid state occur in a much different way than in a gas or plasma. It's a very important result. Unfortunately, it hasn't received much attention by the community for whatever reason. Perhaps as a community cold fusion researchers have tended to be overly involved in system engineering and gadget building, whereas basic science has tended to be overlooked. Also, most persons in our community are not familiar with nuclear accelerators, and those outside the community are reluctant to get involved with things that sound like cold fusion. So my answer to your question is that Pd-D and other heavy metal deuterides probably can not result in energy breakeven for hot fusion targets, but I think there is tremendous science potential in studying such systems. There is reason to hope that it may lead to an understanding of other cold fusion phenomena which are currently labeled as pathological science. I hope we get the chance in the future to do more such research. Best regards, Elliot Kennel Sapporo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 20:43:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA00851; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 20:41:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 20:41:10 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970407154116.008f7afc freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 11:41:16 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Fwd: Another possible hydrogen fuel breakthrough Resent-Message-ID: <"7KUBm1.0.9D.Lp6Ip" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:08 PM 4/6/97 -0400, Frank Znidarsic wrote: > >--------------------- >Forwarded message: >From: zap dnai.com (zeropoint) >To: zap dnai.com >Date: 97-04-03 12:31:39 EDT > > > ><---- Begin Forwarded Message ----> >Comments: Authenticated sender is >From: "David Book" >To: zap dnai.com >Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:12:19 -0500 >Subject: Another possible hydrogen fuel breakthrough >Reply-to: david.book ibm.net > > > > HYDROGEN IS POTENTIAL NEW ENERGY SOURCE > __________________________________________________________________________ > > Copyright © 1997 Reuter Information Service > > > > MALVERN, Pa. (Apr 1, 1997 11:02 a.m. EST) - If Dr. Randell Mills is > right, the way the world produces and uses energy is about to be > radically transformed, along with science's understanding of the > physics involved. If Dr. Mills has an O/U process, he is right even if his theory is later to be proved wrong. His published works indicate to me that he has an O/U process. The one point that bothers me is that he predicted that a sodium electrolyte in his cell would not work according to his theory. Miley's paper in IE mentioned that a sodium electrolyte works in the CETI type cell. Are these two different phenomena that are being observed? Ed Strojny Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 20:44:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA18769; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 20:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 20:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970407154114.008e3840 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 11:41:14 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: CF chain reactions Resent-Message-ID: <"VsfUs2.0.sa4.Xp6Ip" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:32 AM 4/6/97 -0800, Bob Horst wrote: >Something has been bothering me since talking with Jim Reding about >the CETI experiments last summer at ILENR. He said that 95% of the >cells produced excess energy, but the ones that did not work, produce >zero excess. With thousands of tiny beads per cell, the failures are >unlikely to be caused by manufacturing defects in individual beads. >You would expect the power output to be in proportion to the number of >good beads, but never drop to zero. I think contamination should have >the same effect -- some beads would gather the contaminants, and the >rest would be free to produce excess. > >In order to match the data, the power output would have to vary >nonlinearly with the number of good beads. This nonlinearity is most >easily explained if there is a feedback mechanism. In other words, >some working beads must increase or start the output from other beads. > >-- Bob Horst > The art of making good beads is reminiscent to the art of making a good catalyst. The above comments about some success in 100% of the cell loadings are true if the cells are loaded from a single batch of beads. If the statement by Reding refers to 95% of the batches made give excess heat producing cells, then I would say that CETI has succeeded in defining most of the parameters for making good beads. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 21:10:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA06627; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 21:06:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 21:06:53 -0700 Message-ID: <33487248.1403 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 13:34:24 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: neotech xbn.shore.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Simple OU Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"n50NP3.0.Gd1.QB7Ip" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Have just done a series of test in an attempt to measure the work done by the single shot demo unit. Here is what I got : 150 ergs (+-20%) per pass. As I have done about 700 passes to date (+-50), I have used around 105,000 ergs or 0.01 joules of energy so far. Not much. But then many would say even this is not possible. The current single shot unit (my 4th unit) comes in around 21,500 ergs / pass. I plan to do a lot of testing on this unit BEFORE I build the 5th unit (closed loop). I don't want to go through the agony of the failure which happened on the second unit (first closed loop unit). It was NOT a good day! I do want to close the loop as quick as all of you, but I must try and do this right. For all of us. Bye for now. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 21:11:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA06521; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 21:06:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 21:06:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3348717F.4602 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 13:31:03 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Simple OU Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"46GL.0.fb1.EB7Ip" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Have just done a series of test in an attempt to measure the work done by the single shot demo unit. Here is what I got : 150 ergs (+-20%) per pass. As I have done about 700 passes to date (+-50), I have used around 105,000 ergs or 0.01 joules of energy so far. Not much. But then many would say even this is not possible. The current single shot unit (my 4th unit) comes in around 21,500 ergs / pass. I plan to do a lot of testing on this unit BEFORE I build the 5th unit (closed loop). I don't want to go through the agony of the failure which happened on the second unit (first closed loop unit). It was NOT a good day! I do want to close the loop as quite as all of you, but I must try and do this right. For all of us. Bye for now. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 23:18:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA23663; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 23:11:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 23:11:09 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Stress on loaded CF cathodes; Heavy metal target Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:10:32 +0000 Message-ID: <19970407061030.AAA27316 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"Bt2pB1.0.en5.y_8Ip" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Elliot Kennel wrote: >Anyway, what Kasagi finds is that at low energy accelerator >bombardment of deuterons,there is a highly anomalous three-body >reaction which occurs with a reaction probability six orders of >magnitude above conventional theory. >Thia is sort of like the 7-10 split in bowling when the lane is >a mile wide. Rutherford's 1919 discovery of the alpha-nitrogen reaction and the Joliet-Curie alpha-aluminum reaction are about as improbable. Straight from the shoulder, despite your skepticism, production of a pair due to the collision of the deuteron with a substrate electron resulting in something akin to a "Hydrino-Deutrino" upon uptake of a light electron is more probable. The idea that a three-body process might occur with an electron involved was discussed with Luis Alvarez several years ago before his passing. It was decided that even the alpha-nitrogen and alpha-aluminum reactions which required two such collisions to "neutralize" the 2e charge on the alpha particle might be possible. It was decided that a close scrutiny of the multitude of cloud chamber and/or bubble chamber photographs at LBL could be studied to see if there was anything on the photos that would indicate that the "projectile" particle "went neutral" before the actual nuclear reaction took place. Unfortunately, this was not accomplished. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 23:25:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA24405; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 23:15:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 23:15:10 -0700 Message-ID: <33489255.6F37 loc1.tandem.com> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 22:21:09 -0800 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CF chain reactions References: <970407000149_1917405383 emout04.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vdvb-2.0.Cz5.k39Ip" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RMCarrell aol.com wrote: > > Pardon me, gentlemen, but with all the discussion about EUV and Bob's > comments about EUV as being an initator, haven't any of you been looking at > the Web site of Black Light Power? Radiation in the EUV is precisely the > signature of the hydrogen atom collapse and hydrino formation which is the > heart of the Mills process claims. Mills claims that the catalysis can occur > in palladium, and is the source of the heat in the P&F cells, but occurs more > strongly with potassium as the catalyst in the BLP cells. > > Mike Carrell Mike -- I have been interested in Mills' progress since first hearing the hydrino theory 5 or 6 years ago. At that time I even suggested on s.p.f that they try to use light pipes or flourescent materials to directly detect the EUV radiation in a cell producing energy. But I am not aware of any of their papers showing direct evidence of the EUV radiation. Unfortunately, the web site is heavy in theory and business ideas, but light in experimental results. They did write a good paper back in 1994 that described their nickel electrolysis experiments as well an attempt to use mass spectroscopy to show the presence of dihydrino molecules in the evolved gases. It seemed convincing to me, but I am no expert in mass spec. The reference is: R. Mills, W. Good, R. Shaubach, "Dihydrino Molecule Identification," FUSION TECHNOLOGY, Vol 25, Jan. 1994. It is still possible that they have a viable OU device, but are completely wrong on the theory. I continue to be astounded at the slow progress in producing direct experimental data that would prove or disprove the hydrino theory. The theory has been largely ignored by all other groups, but Mills must still believe in it very strongly. -- Bob Horst From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 23:25:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA25587; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 23:24:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 23:24:23 -0700 Message-ID: <33489480.1482 loc1.tandem.com> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 22:30:24 -0800 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CF chain reactions References: <1.5.4.32.19970407154114.008e3840 freeway.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"e2big3.0.jF6.MC9Ip" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edwin Strojny wrote: > > At 10:32 AM 4/6/97 -0800, Bob Horst wrote: > >In order to match the data, the power output would have to vary > >nonlinearly with the number of good beads. This nonlinearity is most > >easily explained if there is a feedback mechanism. In other words, > >some working beads must increase or start the output from other beads. > > > >-- Bob > > > The art of making good beads is reminiscent to the art of making a good > catalyst. The above comments about some success in 100% of the cell > loadings are true if the cells are loaded from a single batch of beads. If > the statement by Reding refers to 95% of the batches made give excess heat > producing cells, then I would say that CETI has succeeded in defining most > of the parameters for making good beads. > > Ed Strojny When I spoke with Reding, my understanding was that beads from the same batch went into multiple cells, and some of those cells worked, while others did not. I suppose it is still possible that only portions of the batch were bad, but it seems very unlikely that any cell would get all bad beads while others got mostly good beads. -- Bob Horst From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 01:12:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA02993; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 01:11:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 01:11:01 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970407081052.0066c9b4 sparc1> X-Sender: kennel sparc1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 17:10:52 +0900 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Elliot Kennel Subject: Re: Competition Requires Losers Resent-Message-ID: <"01Gxy2.0.ek.KmAIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The problem I >have is that for you to live in comfort you need to get someone to >confiscate my own and many other peoples property to distribute it to a >group of scientists in the hope that they may be able to help out with the >situation. Goodness! It's terrible that you have to have your standard of living reduced just because you live in a lousy country like America (I presume). Fortunately there are plenty of places on earth which fund no scientific research on global warming or nuclear physics, such as Angola, Armenia, and Afghanistan, just to start with the A's. So why not move there? I can assure you that the tax dollars you will have to pay to support advanced research will be nil. Thus your standard of living will not be eroded and you should be quite happy and have great peace of mind. Best regards, Elliot Kennel Sapporo Japan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 01:43:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA12117; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 01:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 01:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704070841.KAA58344 sdn5.csc.dk> From: i3683 csc.dk (I3683) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 11:31:00 CET DST Subject: Storms' article To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"1mjBP2.0.Fz2.FDBIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund STorms: How to produce the Pons-Fleischmann Effect. Fusion Technology, vol 29, mar 1996, page 261-268 Nice article. Well written. Tells about how to make it work and how to make it fail. Intelligent approach to cold fusion, as opposed to more widespread viewpoints, such as It cannot be true, It must not be true, It has to be stopped... Regards, Anders From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 03:56:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA16330; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 03:54:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 03:54:57 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:55:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Competition Requires Losers In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970407081052.0066c9b4 sparc1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2Rp47.0.4_3.0ADIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo, this is just typical. On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Elliot Kennel wrote: > The problem I Mike Butcher's thread: > >have is that for you to live in comfort you need to get someone to > >confiscate my own and many other peoples property to distribute it to a > >group of scientists in the hope that they may be able to help out with the > >situation. > The reply > Goodness! It's terrible that you have to have your standard of living > reduced just because you live in a lousy country like America (I presume). > Fortunately there are plenty of places on earth which fund no scientific > research on global warming or nuclear physics, such as Angola, Armenia, and > Afghanistan, just to start with the A's. So why not move there? I can ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > assure you that the tax dollars you will have to pay to support advanced > research will be nil. Thus your standard of living will not be eroded and > you should be quite happy and have great peace of mind. > > Best regards, > Elliot Kennel > Sapporo Japan > I suggest you read Ayn Rand's 'Capitalism: the unknown ideal' and find out why those countries don't have an economy. I think its a lot to do with the contempt with which they hold human life and property. (Try Rwanda). Of course there's no research there, there's no bloody anything! You build up your wealth and then have it nationalised and looted. You build a peaceful, prosperous society and then there's a bloody coup. Yes, Yes, Yes, just right for investment if only the hardnosed business man had a sense of social justice. Freedom is this: My right to pursue hapiness in life. My right to increase my wealth through my judgement and work. My right to associate with whom I please. My right not to be enslaved physically or fiscally. My right to peaceful, law abiding existance with mutual respect for my fellow citizen, their person and property. Don't tell me about the past: mercantilism, imperalism, etc. That wasn't capitalism, try Objectivism. Nothing any statists tell me in their cyclical (and cynical) self-renewal tells me that they regard me as a mere tool for their existance - not a fellow blood, guts, emotions human. Its more akin to feudalism! Remi. (I try and cut it down, but there's an election on in U.K. and I'm seriously pissed off! Only people like a Howard or Redwood ask logical probing questions, but they get cut off by the 'he's evil, he's heartless lobby'. Yeah Lenin, Stalin et al were such lovers of humanity! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 04:14:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA20808; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 04:12:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 04:12:55 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC434C.D756D9A0 ppp334.enterprise.net> From: Mike Butcher To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Competition Requires Losers Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:11:29 +0100 Encoding: 31 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"JfGQH1.0.255.sQDIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Goodness! It's terrible that you have to have your standard of living reduced just because you live in a lousy country like America (I presume). Fortunately there are plenty of places on earth which fund no scientific research on global warming or nuclear physics, such as Angola, Armenia, and Afghanistan, just to start with the A's. So why not move there? I can assure you that the tax dollars you will have to pay to support advanced research will be nil. Thus your standard of living will not be eroded and you should be quite happy and have great peace of mind. Best regards, Elliot Kennel Sapporo Japan> Yes, you are correct, compared to the "A" countries, the US (the West) is a haven of stability in fact much like the Roman Empire in its heyday and it is heading for the same end. The Roman State and its beneficiaries were eventually demanding so much from its citizens that the more productive ended up moving to the equivalent of the "A" countries. This didn't happen overnight but the net effect was at the end nobody cared whether what little was left survived or not, it just petered out and the "A" countries ended up the new dominant and productive civilisations. Yes, lets encourage the State to confiscate more of our property and give it to scientists who know what's best for us. Give it to advanced research, it is a noble cause, not expensive and I'm sure that there will be no similar cumulative demands on our pockets in future. All pigs fed and ready to fly. Mike Butcher The Kuyper Foundation From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 04:37:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA21424; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 04:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 04:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3348DB4C.225B microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 21:02:28 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vw2dy3.0.TE5.emDIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > > > > > Hi All, > > > > Have just done a series of test in an attempt to measure the work done > > by the single shot demo unit. > > What path does it take through the unit? Straight line? If the > trajectory is at all curved, why not just arrange a *very* crude > loop-closer such as a cardboard disk with the "bullet" taped to the rim? > Or does the "bullet" have to pass through a closed ring? Not curved. > One way to avoid dissapointment: work under the assumption that it is a > totally conventional effect, and that you've just not discovered your > mistake. Seriously. See below. I have assumed I am in error ever since I first thought up the device. Even now I try very hard to fully understand what is going on and always suspect that in the next thought I will discover my error. > .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. > William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 > EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ > Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/rules1.txt > RULES FOR UNCONVENTIONAL RESEARCH (c)1997 William Beaty > > My first law of unconventional research: if it violates conventional > physics, it is almost definitely a mistake. I fully agree with you. Been there done that many times. But if magnets can be seen to be a energy source then there is no violation of conventional physics. The only thing not understood may be where this energy is coming from. > Seriously! Even though I'm involved with fringe science, I intentionally > maintain this 'skeptic' belief for many reasons. If I let myself start > *knowing* that I've found an anomaly, I will stop trying to double-check > the results, stop trying to think up conventional explanations, stop > trying to look for mistakes, stop looking for subtle ways I've fooled > myself. I've seen how easy it is for people to talk themselves into > things. I want to avoid these traps. Second, if I keep strongly > suspecting an error, I will resist the temptation to let my ego get the > better of me. I know the extent and the power of my ego, and that > delusions of grandeur are very easy to fall into. Therefor, in my saner > momements I set up my beliefs as traps to trip up my future ego trips. > Another: if I "know" that the discovery is a mistake, I will force the > discovery itself to convince me otherwise. No opinions and self-delusion, > just the real world demonstrating its realness. Another: if I present it > to others as an earthshaking discovery, they will later tend to defend > this viewpoint and not help prove out the discovery. But if I present it > as "find my mistake", then they might actually discover a conventional > explanation I've overlooked. I could not agree more. These are my thoughts. > Second rule: if it is a real anomaly, I might kill it. > > If it's a small piece of a new field of science, then there is a *very* > large chance that I won't understand what's causing it. I may > accidentally extinguish it and never get it back again. Don't take apart > the original invention! Don't even move it to another location. Just > moving your arm a bit wrong might eliminate the conditions which allowed > success! Build several copies and get them working before allowing > yourself to feel safe. That's what I thought when my second unit (closed loop unit) didn't work. I sure was relieved when I RECONSTRUCTED my first unit and it worked. It now sits, still working, not to be touched. > Third rule: publicize it and let others help me find my mistake. That has always been my path. I find it very hard not to talk to others about this. > This rule is a natural consequence of rule one: if I intentionally > maintain the conviction that there is a mistake somewhere, wide publicity > is the fastest way to get help in finding it. I realize that this isn't > an option outside the US. If I publicize a discovery here, I have a year > to decide to patent it or no. If in another country, I'd have to first > decide to put my invention into the public domain. Myself, I might do > this anyway, because of Rule Four. I WILL publish full details whatever happens. My patent attorney has asked me for a closed loop unit before he will file. I have know him for many years and I respect his opinion. In fact it was he who got me into this OU area. His staff PHD physicist wouldn't give it more than a passing glance. He just gave me a copy of the Sci Amer Perpertual Motion Machine article and said that this paper proved that my device could not work. When he saw the kinetic energy gain, his eyebrows raised and he sotfened somewhat. He left the meeting saying "Close the loop". My suggestion that the first law was not being voilated if you assumed a magnet could do work really cooled him down. > Fourth rule: figure out what other o/u inventors did, then do the > opposite! What OU invetors. Where are the real devices? Many patents I have studied will not work. Seems you can patent almost any wild idea in the US. > Inventors over and over have announced o/u discoveries, yet where are > they now? What did Pons and Fleichman do wrong? Hendershot? Hubbard? > There seem to be guaranteed routes to failure. Secrecy is one. Attempts > to sell the idea to governments or giant corporations is another. Do > research, discover them, then avoid them. > > Fifth: a failed o/u device often makes a great toy. I have already begun to research that path. Any contacts? > Whatever fooled me into thinking I had a great discovery, well, the same > thing can befuddle others, and act as entertainment. If Pat Harris of the > "TOMI" device had given weight to this concept, his rollercoaster device > might now be in all the stores as an "impossible" science toy. And if a > real anomaly gets ignored by the mainstream, designing a toy is a great > way to penetrate the barriers of disbelief. I agree. > Sixth: spend all your effort making an airtight demo. > > A tiny spinner which keeps turning, or better yet a light bulb which runs > for weeks, beats any number of electric cars or huge multi-kilowatt > blackboxes hands down. Don't try to build a flying saucer, try to build a > soup-can which unexplainedly loses 1% of its weight, and which anyone can > duplicate. If possible, make it so simple that you could sell it as a kit > to school kids. Make it so obvious that your grandmother could follow the > instructions and make a successful replica. If the goal is to blow away > the objections of the skeptics, then the device should clearly demonstrate > the new principle in ways which cannot be explained away. Doing any more > than this will just obscure the principle. And doing less than this will > almost guarantee that your discovery gets ignored as being yet another > crackpot claim. This is my current objective. My wife and daughter understand why it works. They had no problems handling the concept that magnets could provide work. My current single shot unit is being modified and simulated all the time. Before I close the loop this time, I will have a very good understanding of the characteristics of this thing. The unit will present like a perpetual mobile with one moving part. There will be no doubt what it is doing or how it works! The closed loop unit will be able to be duplicated by most people. I may offer kits. The only question will be the enegry source. I do wish some of our vortexian members would take the question of the source of the magnets field doing work and what would be the effect on the chemical / atomic structure of the magnet to heart. Or is it that we all lurk here, but don't really believe what we seek is possible. Sort of a morbid curiosity, I quess. But I am getting carried away, I haven't yet closed the loop. > Under Construction... Still working. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 04:45:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA24680; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 04:44:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 04:44:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3348DE0F.54AF microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 21:14:15 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Newman-l Subject: Re: Simple OU Device (Now not so simple)! References: <9704070214001058 emachine.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VPpAx2.0.Q16.ZuDIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Newman-l wrote: > > From: karruth bbs2.rmrc.net (Karl Johnson) > Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 11:01:06 -0500 > Subject: Re: Simple OU Device (Now not so simple)! > > > I have just completed a copy of the original unit. I duplicates the > > effect and will be stored by my patent attorney in a safe location > > unknown to me.-------- > Greg: > > Congratulations on being concerned with security, but might you be wiser > to take security precautions without telling the world exactly what they > are? Your patent attorney is human, and you have just painted a giant > bullseye on his back. I don't really believe in the "X Files", nor in evil agents assigned to take me out. I do however believe in Murphy and have secured the info in many places. Our world wide Internet, Fax and Letter network is very effective in moving data to many places even Mulder and Scully coulnd't find. So ALL you evil agents, you are wasting your time and bullets. > May I suggest that the two of you devise an additional step, and that > you not talk about it. > > Good Luck. We (the world) need you to succeed. > Karl C. Johnson HI Karl, Thanks, but don't get so heavy. I have enough problems sleeping already. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 04:47:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA22175; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 04:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 04:46:09 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrino-Deutrino Threat? Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 11:45:56 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <334bafc6.35824398 mail.netspace.net.au> References: <19970406142216.AAA14794 LOCALNAME> In-Reply-To: <19970406142216.AAA14794 LOCALNAME> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"J-Emb.0.OQ5._vDIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 6 Apr 1997 14:22:19 +0000, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >I think a carefully measured quantity of a potassium "salt" in a >glass of water might show a attogram of change of potassium to calcium >in a few days or so. This would be an indication of the presence of >the Hydrino, wouldn't it? [snip] Given that according to Mills the potassium functions in the first instance as a catalyst, while only some of the hydrinos will fuse with other nuclei, there should be quite a bit more "hydrino" gas formed, than potassium converted to calcium. I suspect this would be easier to measure. Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://netspace.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 05:27:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA29243; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 05:24:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 05:24:43 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970407082405_-1771004451 emout13.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP in the News Resent-Message-ID: <"vhzeS2.0.r87.9UEIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, Vortexians, How much of thread is there about BlackLight Power on CompuServe's Cold Fusion forum? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 05:33:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA25371; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 05:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 05:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 07:31:53 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Mechanical Energy Resent-Message-ID: <"t4_g82.0.LC6.wYEIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg wrote: >We seem to have a very good understanding that magnetic fields are not a >energy source in themselves and can only convert or transmit energy. Magnetic fields represent very real, kinetic energy ... just as moving water represents a harnessable, kinetic flow (source?) of energy. Best regards, Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "In speaking of the Energy of the field, however, I wish to be understood literally. All energy is the same as mechanical energy, whether it exists in the form of motion or in that of elasticity, or in any other form. The energy in electromagnetic phenomena is _mechanical_ energy." --- JAMES CLERK MAXWELL From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 05:34:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA25320; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 05:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 05:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 13:50:08 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" Message-ID: <3348df79.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: "vortex" Cc: "Peter Glueck" Subject: Fusion Technology, March 97 Resent-Message-ID: <"M4qwa.0.XB6.ZYEIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Carissimi Vorticelli, I have learned from Current Contents that the March 1997 issue of Fusion Technology presents some very interesting papers: -- Our Mitch's Phusons reactions in solids; -- Jacques Dufour's group's excess energy per atom paper, it seems that this supports Mills'data; -- Ohmori et al about transmutations in a gold electrode; -- Sanchez et al writing about neutrons in Ti deuteride by cycling; -- Violante and DeNinno about ion traps for deuterons; -- a seemingly mysterious letter by Noninski et al re "an experimental curiosity that if undetected may lead to erroneous far-reaching conclusions" Can please our friends enjoying the great privilege of a good library nearby, tell us something relevant about these publications. The ANS webpage seems to be a bit slow in updating. Thank you in advance, Peter -- dr. Peter Gluck Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700 Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 05:48:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA26580; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 05:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 05:46:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704070740.ZM1846 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 07:40:58 -0500 In-Reply-To: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) "Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets" (Apr 5, 4:28pm) References: <199704051529.HAA18856 mx1.eskimo.com> <3346BA90.1A9C@gorge.net> <3346BC69.3173 interlaced.net> <3346E295.2E86@gorge.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"TUhwB.0.DV6.noEIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 5, 4:28pm, Tom Miller wrote: > Any ideas how a lightning strike could go around even > a one turn coil?? Any ideas on how lightning wraps itself up into a ball and bounces down powerlines and along roads? -john -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 06:29:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA00994; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:26:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:28:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Voltage Resent-Message-ID: <"ec63P3.0.SF.FOFIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg wrote, >It not the energy required to cause domain alignment that we are >interested in. Its the energy source which generates the domain's field >that is the key. With respect to your first sentence: it is the VOLTAGE -- not the current -- which causes such domain alignment and subsequent formation of the kinetic magnetic fields whose source is the atoms (of the material of the conductor) aligned by the VOLTAGE. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "I cannot conceive curved lines of force without the conditions of a physical existence in that intermediate space." --- MICHAEL FARADAY From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 06:38:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA01768; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:36:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Competition, 'We the willing' In-Reply-To: <01BC434C.D756D9A0 ppp334.enterprise.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"HBqkU1.0.YR.YXFIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vo, We the willing, Lead by the unknowing, Are doing the impossible for the ungrateful; We have done so much, For so long, For so little; That they think, we are now qualified to do anything, With nothing... Literally, as o-u'ers or constant entropers know! Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 08:34:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA02552; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:32:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:32:51 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:27:35 -0400 (EDT) From: John Alexander Lotoski To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mechanical Energy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"tGQbz.0.nd.YEHIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Evan Soule wrote: > Greg wrote: > >We seem to have a very good understanding that magnetic fields are not a > >energy source in themselves and can only convert or transmit energy. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Magnetic fields represent very real, kinetic energy ... just as moving > water represents a harnessable, kinetic flow (source?) of energy. > > Evan Soule' Moving water is harnessable, but it is not the main source of energy in itself. The harnessable energy is directly a result of the conversation of gravitational potential. (eg: you can always recycle the flowing tide with no (theoretical) loss of water) Water is harnessable as a direct energy source only if we are talking with respect to chemical and atomic situations (in which case anything is potentially harnessable) (exothermic and nuclear rx's). If you use this analogy of water and magnets you would also be suggesting that magnets are only the transmitter of energy (which is coming from another source). Is this the case? John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 08:38:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA15459; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:31:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704071019.ZM2310 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:19:27 -0500 In-Reply-To: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> "Synthesizing oil, and knowledge" (Apr 4, 8:17pm) References: <970405021957_72240.1256_EHB86-2 CompuServe.COM> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Synthesizing oil, and knowledge Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"CCCJ01.0.In3.SDHIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 4, 8:17pm, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Amen! We should synthesize food because people are hungry. Why else? > Agriculture just isn't good enough. Maybe we can solve the problem with indoor > farming, but if not, we must synthesize. > > Steck says "the question is not *can* we do something, but *should* we do > something." The answer is often yes, because things turn out to have many more > uses than we anticipate. I was hoping to let this one die on the vine, but I guess I have to pull out the DDT. I understand both Jed and Carlos and the points they make, but their positions are not reasonable. Let me put this in capitals for the cheap seats: SYNTHETIC FOOD WILL NOT SOLVE THE WORLD HUNGER PROBLEM. I will reitterate my call for opportunity cost analysis of activities and goals: "the question is not *can* we do something, but *should* we do something." > There is more than enough food in the world to eliminate all starvation and > all nutrition related disease. Unfortunately, most of the extra food is in > places like the U.S. and Australia, and there is no practical, economical way > to get it to the hungry people. Distribution is a major problem, along with > storage, refrigeration, preservation, milling, and so on. The biggest problem > is that the hungry people cannot afford to buy the food, even if we sold it > at cost. Agriculturally produced food is too expensive. Yes, there is more than enough food, but most of the donated sacks of rice and flour sit on the docks and rot. Distribution will ALWAYS be a problem no matter what the foodstuffs ANYWHERE. Personally, I liked some of the air drop ideas floating around hear a few months back. (pardon the pun) Also, I do not understand your comment about agriculturally produced food being too expensive. Last time I checked, short of planting and harvesting, nature does all the real work. How do you plan to be more cost effective paying someone or something to do it instead? To quote a deceased comedian "Don't send them food, send them luggage." > The advantage of synthetic food is that it could be produced close to the > populations that need the food, using raw materials like oil which do not > spoil or rot, and which are not consumed by rats and other vermin. You would > not need large silos or refrigeration; you would only produce a two-week > supply of food. In industry this is called a "just-in-time inventory." It is > impossible with conventional agriculture, although we are beginning to see it > with food factories and factory based aquiculture, which supplies a growing > percent of U.S. freshwater fish. Still needs to be made from *something* even if the energy to do it is cheap. That something is rarely in a convienient form or location. If you and I can eat it, why wouldn't vermin? (if they wont, not sure I would want to either - wisdom from the innocents, eh?). If basic transportation for simple distribution is not available now, how can you even think of JIT??? You have a faulty premise in there. Just when I though you were only masquerading as a capitalist you throw out factory livestock production! Not that I object, but now you really have me confused. Don't worry, I wont tell the animal rights guys on you. That's one bunch that is truely o/u! (hee, hee, hee) > Production of synthetic food could be varied > on demand. Large amounts of food could be produced in emergencies, such as > floods or crop failures. ...or war, like they already do. The emergency / extream circumstance angles are the only reasonable applications of synthetic food because of economics. They are the only time cost (and taste for that matter) is not one of the prime limiting factors. > Let me add a personal note explaining why I feel confident to make these > pronouncements about food and agricultural economy. It is one of the problems > I have studied fairly extensively on my own. I have talked to a number of > experts about it. Before I got involved in cold fusion and began spending > every spare dollar on it, I was one of Oxfam America's "Major Donors" (their > designation). This is one of the most effective privately funded third-world > development agencies. Ok, give us a cost breakdown and project a year long budget that proves your point for a population of 500,000 unlucky souls. I'll give you a reasonable transportation infrastructure, resources within 100 miles, a well educated minimum wage labor force, a temperate climate, availablity of all present day technology, and free electricity. Completely unrealistic, but I look forward to hearing your argument none the less. Most respectfully. -john -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 08:45:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA01715; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:28:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:28:09 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704071022.ZM2341 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:22:49 -0500 In-Reply-To: RMCarrell aol.com "Competiton and Food" (Apr 6, 10:15am) References: <970406111931_1085760228 emout08.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Competiton and Food Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"7Wlxw1.0.jQ.8AHIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 6, 10:15am, RMCarrell aol.com wrote: > A food synthesis plant would be just such a system. If you don't get the raw > materials from the air and water, you are dependent on the largess of > governments (politicians). To synthesize food -- even basic carbohydrates, > not to mention amino acids and vitamins -- from air and water is a high tech > trick. To package such a synthesizer for worldwide use is presently a dream. > Yes, you can use a Walkman -- a very high tech device -- in a developing > country, but the Walkman is not a process system that will eventually require > maintenence. > > Plants have mastered the trick, which is why subsistence farming can be low > tech and high yield commercial farming is high tech. > > Yes, the fertile areas of the world -- US, Austrailia, Argentina, parts of > Eurasia, could feed the rest if the political "details" didn't get in the > way. We hear talk in the US of food as a weapon to corece other countries to > our way of thinking. But it would be better for all if the stupid tribal > quarrels did not lay waste the land. > > Once again, energy holds the key. Given abundant energy, one can distribute > food and other resources, but a new conception of economics will be > necessary. If the energy were free, there is still the matter of the human > effort to transport food from, say, Iowa to central Africa. What will Africa > offer in excahnge, other than mineral resources and handcrafts? There have > been attempts by poor landlocked nations to claim a share of wealth from > mining the sea bed, on the theory that the sea is part of the common > ownership of Mankind. > > I won't try to solve problems like that one. But I can only hope that one of > the technologies we daily debate here can soon be packaged into a unit that > can be used, and then manufactured, in the third world as a piece of > appropriate technology -- along with the oilseed press, the bicycle > potato-slicer, and the dual-piston, human powered irrigation pump that were > shown last year at the Franklin Insititue as part of our African exhibit. Should have just kept reading. Thanks Mike. Probably stated better than my response to Jed. -john -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 09:02:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA07109; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:57:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:57:51 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:00:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Source of Energy Resent-Message-ID: <"fA-11.0.uk1.-bHIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I fully agree with you. Been there done that many times. But if >magnets can be seen to be a energy source then there is no violation of >conventional physics. The only thing not understood may be where this >energy is coming from. Magnets are indeed an energy source. And the source is: the GYROSCOPIC PARTICLE. Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "I cannot conceive curved lines of force without the conditions of a physical existence in that intermediate space." --- MICHAEL FARADAY From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 09:02:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA07177; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:58:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:58:01 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:00:09 -0600 To: tom gorge.net From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"HfjSN.0.3m1.7cHIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Frank: > >I appreciate and understand your position, and I don't know >enough to effectively counter it. So, not as an argument, >but as a request for information: > >Can anybody tell me and vortex what the magnetic field >around a conductor "looks like?" For instance, I understand >that, (given conductor "A" carrying a substantial current) >another conductor parallel to a will not have any current >induced, as long as the current in "A" does not fluctuate. > >What if, conductor "A" (for instance, a copper rod 1 meter >long) carrying 100 amps of non fluxuating current, is >rotated rapidly around its long axis? Would it then induce >a substantial current in a nearby parallel conductor? > >I guess another way to ask the question is: Do the "lines > of flux" around a current carrying conductor form a circle >around the conductor, or spiral forward along with the >electrons moving inside the conductor? Or something else? > >I sure hope sombody knows. > >Tom Miller Dear Tom, The "lines of force" around a conductor create a "spiriling helix shape" which consists of gyroscopic particles. A MAGNETIC FIELD mechanically consists of "negative" and "positive" gyroscopic particles having opposite spins and simultaneously traveling in OPPOSITE directions, e.g., the concentric "shells of force" surrounding a bar magnet. An ELECTRIC CURRENT mechanically consists of "negative" and "positive" gyroscopic particles having opposite spins and traveling in the SAME direction down a conductor wire -- as does light traveling in space through a medium. I will send you a gif file which is a graphic description of the above originally sketched by nuclear physicist Robert J. Matherne. Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "I cannot conceive curved lines of force without the conditions of a physical existence in that intermediate space." --- MICHAEL FARADAY From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 10:06:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA25686; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:56:25 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Mechanical Energy Resent-Message-ID: <"Zep0u3.0.EH6.xQIIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Evan Soule wrote: > >> Greg wrote: >> >We seem to have a very good understanding that magnetic fields are not a >> >energy source in themselves and can only convert or transmit energy. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> Magnetic fields represent very real, kinetic energy ... just as moving >> water represents a harnessable, kinetic flow (source?) of energy. >> >> Evan Soule' > snip-- > If you use this analogy of water and magnets you would also be >suggesting that magnets are only the transmitter of energy (which is >coming from another source). Is this the case? > > John Dear John, Thanks for your comments. This is why I placed the word "source" with an "?" at the end, and in parentheses, as above. The analogy to "moving water" is a loose analogy which I utilized because, by analogy, it suggests the nature of the moving gyroscopic particles which comprise the magnetic fields about a magnet. While I would say that the mechanical agent (source?) causing the paddlewheel to move _is_ the moving water, one could look deeper and state that a more fundamental cause (source?) of the moving water is gravitation. I suppose that the utilization of the word "source" is related to the context of its discussion. To say that a magnet is the "source" of the field around it is true in one 'macro' sense....and looking deeper, one might ask, "What is the 'source' of the magnet's field?" In this case, one could answer, "The gyroscopic particle(s)." But one could also ask, what is the "source" of the gyroscopic particle(s) which comprise the magnetic field? One could then answer, the atoms from which the gyroscopic particle(s) emanate(s). Take a copper conductor: it is obviously comprised of copper atoms. When voltage causes these copper atoms to align with one another, it thereby causes them to release their *pre-existing* gyroscopic particles which create a magnetic field (consisting of such gyroscopic particles) about the conductor. But these gyroscopic particle are _already_ (*perpetually*) individually spinning at C and moving at C inside their respective atoms. By applying voltage, one simply causes this pre-existing mechanical energy (gyroscopic particles) to expand beyond the individual 'boundaries' of their respective atoms to create the general magnetic field about the conductor. For me, here's the real irony: there are those (usually speaking in a macroscopic sense with respect to entropic systems) who may say that "perpetual motion" is impossible. And ironically, at the 'microscopic' (gyroscopic particle) level, the "perpetual *mechanical* motion" of these gyroscopic particles represents the mechanical essence of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "In speaking of the Energy of the field, however, I wish to be understood literally. All energy is the same as mechanical energy, whether it exists in the form of motion or in that of elasticity, or in any other form. The energy in electromagnetic phenomena is _mechanical_ energy." --- JAMES CLERK MAXWELL From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 10:49:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA31270; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:38:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:38:36 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC433F.89C59800 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Simple OU Device Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:36:18 -0700 Encoding: 75 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"a4zcj.0.Re7.G4JIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: >I do wish some of our vortexian members would take the question of the >source of the magnets field doing work and what would be the effect on >the chemical / atomic structure of the magnet to heart. Or is it that >we all lurk here, but don't really believe what we seek is possible. >Sort of a morbid curiosity, I quess. Greg, I know that some of us have taken that question very seriously. We may not be posting, but we're thinking. It's just not a simple question. Well, maybe it's a simple question that has a simple answer, but it isn't simple for us to get the answer yet. We're trying to find what is the true nature of magnetism and its interaction with matter! Many powerful minds have worked on that question over the years. I believe we'll get it; forums such as the Vortex and Freenrg lists are potentially the most powerful entities ever to exist for scientific thought (inspiration, however, still seems to be an individual action). I personally have lots of thoughts in my head about this, but they're mostly in the conceptual, swirling-in-a-mist-and-not-yet-condensed-into-linear-thought state. What makes it into the left brain (and onto the lists) seems somewhat simplistic sometimes; the inspirational part of my mind is looking for more data before making more connections, I guess. So most of my contributions are likely to be questions. Fortunately, as I've found when teaching, it is sometimes the students' innocent questions that lead me to the most thorough knowledge. (but of course it takes great patience to endure the large number of elementary questions and still be open and listening when that significant one arrives!) Here's a couple: Has anyone ever measured the "speed" of a magnetic field? Several ways of thinking of this: How fast does the field propagate across the room when we fire up a coil? Aside from the time it takes for the field to build itself. -or- If we were to assume Newman's theory is right about "gyroscopic particles", how fast are those particles traveling along their path from pole to pole? I know Newman says the speed of light. -or- If we were able to block the field from being continuous from one pole to the next of a permanent magnet: upon removing the block, how long before the field finds its original path? But when we block the path the field lines will just distort so they are still continuous. Nevertheless, how fast do they rebound to their undistorted form? Would that be FTL? If field lines would just distort - that is, if they are *always* continuous - that does seem to indicate that the magnetic lines we see are not a flow as we think of it - at least not in our dimensions. They seem to be more of a "sphere of influence", the surface of a 3-dimensional space which can be distorted but not broken. Interesting how they present themselves to us as a set of discrete lines. Does that mean that they are individual energy states? Seems sort of quantum-like, no? I've been discussing this a bit with a friend who is not on the vortex or freenrg lists. Here's a recent thought from him: Bob Echols wrote: >My own feeling about the answer to this question is influenced >heavily from Bruce DePalma. It seems that a magnetic field >changes the normally isotropic space-time field to being >"polarized". Once space-time is polarized, then with the >"proper" motions, one can illicit a flow from this dynamic >medium. Sound vague enough for you! The picture in my >mind needs to have a few details filled out. Anyway one >can understand ferromagnetism, as was pointed out in one >of your messages, as arising from the unpaired spin states >of electrons in atomic orbitals. Since electrons are connected >to all of space-time, but manifest themselves as local bundles >of space-time energy condensate with spin 1/2 characteristics. >When electrons don't pair, then the surrounding space-time >feels this and our gaussmeter records a magnetic field. Hope this is useful. Dan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 11:38:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA13041; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:29:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:29:56 -0700 Date: 07 Apr 97 13:49:07 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: BLP in the News Message-ID: <970407174906_76016.2701_JHC89-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"JXw6q1.0.FB3.VqJIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tom Stolper asks: >>How much of thread is there about BlackLight Power on CompuServe's Cold Fusion forum?<< Mostly just what has been cross-posted from the web site and Richard Blue's dismissals of the same. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 11:43:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA13570; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:31:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:31:29 -0700 Date: 07 Apr 97 13:48:21 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Can't eat oil Message-ID: <970407174820_72240.1256_EHB116-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"0JeTC2.0.4J3.prJIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I wrote: "The advantage of synthetic food is that it could be produced close to the populations that need the food, using raw materials like oil which do not spoil or rot, and which are not consumed by rats and other vermin. . . ." John Steck responded: Still needs to be made from *something* even if the energy to do it is cheap. That something is rarely in a convenient form or location. If you and I can eat it, why wouldn't vermin? (if they wont, not sure I would want to either - wisdom from the innocents, eh?). John did read my paragraph carefully before responding. The answer is right there in the part he quoted: the raw material might be oil. Another promising raw material would be sewage. It isn't good form to post a knee jerk response that ignores a key point. You might not think that oil can be converted into food, but experts say it can. Arthur Clarke is fond of quoting one who said that oil is too valuable to burn, we should eat it instead. If basic transportation for simple distribution is not available now, how can you even think of JIT??? You have a faulty premise in there. Oil is much easier to ship than corn. I said that if the technology can be perfected, the machinery could be located close the population that requires the food. I mean within walking distance. Why not? Another gigantic advantage of either food synthesis or factory agriculture is that both would eliminate outdoor farming, which is by far the most environmentally destructive industry on earth. In my upcoming paper, I show that a food factory complex taking up approximately twice the land area of greater New York City could produce enough food to feed the entire U.S. population. This would free up 47% of U.S. land area for other uses. At the present rate, within a generation we will need most of it for shopping malls and fast-food outlets. Some land, we might hope, will be returned to its natural state, giving the other species some elbow room. Food synthesis would also eliminate abattoirs, which are, we must admit, a necessary evil. Ok, give us a cost breakdown and project a year long budget that proves your point for a population of 500,000 unlucky souls. I'll give you a reasonable transportation infrastructure, resources within 100 miles, a well educated minimum wage labor force . . . How can I prove anything? The technology I am describing does not exist! I am describing what might happen if it is first invented and then "perfected." Perfected means made safe, reliable, and economical, and scaled up or down to whatever size machinery is appropriate. I would call it perfected when we can put an automatic synthesizer in every neighborhood where we now have a grocery store. I suppose the final flowering of the technology will come when we put one in every kitchen. Since every house has a ready source of sewage, this would kill two birds with one stone. I suppose people today might be squeamish at the thought, but by the time this happens, in a thousand years or so, we will be used to the idea. It is absurd to be squeamish. We end up eating sewage today, after many complex, inefficient, and dangerous transformations. For that matter we must inevitably be cannibals too. As Hamlet put it: A man may fish with the worm that hath eat of a king, and eat of the fish that hath fed of that worm. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 11:44:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA09271; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:16:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:16:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199704071816.LAA09204 mx1.eskimo.com> From: Ron McFee Subject: Good Movie To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 7 Apr 97 12:16:35 MDT Cc: mcfee concentric.net, mcfee@lanl.gov Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Resent-Message-ID: <"MdYVX.0.hG2.NeJIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I went to see the movie "The Saint" yesterday. The reviews that I read before I went said that the movie was "quite intense" which I think was a bit of an understatement. I don't know how long it will run. I think that even though it will be of interest to most Vortex-L types, it may not be too long as a first run at the Box Office so I recommend that you plan on seeing it soon. It has a fairly nice romantic theme between the Saint (Val Kilmer) and Dr. Russel (Elisabeth Shue) so that it is worth taking a friend. (I suspect that if we had more real Dr. Russels working in this field we would have made much more progress.) I only runs for about two hours. If Cold Fusion ever goes mainstream, then I imagine that this film could become a cult classic. In which case it should probably be lengthened with addition material which was probably cut from the present release. It will probably be of interest to post pubescent teenagers. However I don't think the real kiddie set will appreciate it. So you might as well see it a discount matinee like I did ($3.75 US). The review published in "Infinite Energy 2, 11" is worth reading before (and after) you go to see the movie. Regards, Ron From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 12:26:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA23282; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:05:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:05:33 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC434B.CBA3F760 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Can't eat oil Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:04:06 -0700 Encoding: 26 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"WwXLY.0.fh5.yLKIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: >Another gigantic advantage of either food synthesis or factory agriculture is >that both would eliminate outdoor farming, which is by far the most >environmentally destructive industry on earth. I've been staying out of this thread, though I could write volumes, because that's not why I subscribe to this list. But can't leave this one unanswered, though I'll keep it real short: Farming is only environmentally destructive when it is done improperly, just as any human endeavor. There are methods of farming which are not only environmentally benign, but which enhance and build fertility and general ecosystem stability. Would you like to compare the effects of a spill of the food factory's raw material (oil) with that of a sustainable farm (cover crop seed, water)? We could also talk cultural stability; quality of life issues; the fact that soil is not an inert mineral substance but a highly complex community of organisms and their products; relative stability of complex vs. simple life-support systems, etc. In any case, the true causes of hunger are cultural, not physical. Dan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 12:52:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA20404; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:38:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704071432.ZM3459 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:32:13 -0500 In-Reply-To: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> "Can't eat oil" (Apr 7, 1:28pm) References: <970407174820_72240.1256_EHB116-1 CompuServe.COM> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Can't eat oil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"l809K2.0.g-4.TqKIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 7, 1:28pm, Jed Rothwell wrote: > How can I prove anything? The technology I am describing does not exist! Hmmm. That could have save me a lot of typing and rational thought. I didn't realize we were talking wishes and pipe dreams here. In that case I propose CF should give us world peace as well. Zeal is good. Directionless passion isn't. Pragmatic to the end. -john -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 13:06:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA23020; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704071957.MAA12101 popmail.UCSD.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Bart Simon" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:59:26 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Good Movie Reply-to: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199704071816.LAA09204 mx1.eskimo.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Resent-Message-ID: <"TVB4T1.0.Vd5.d7LIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings, I'll second Ron's recommendation, I just saw the film yesterday and I was amazed to hear Fleischmann and Pons' names mentioned right up front. Two things Vortexans might consider: 1. I was a little distressed but not surprised at the way the success of cold fusion in the film is cast as a matter of faith (in believing in something no matter what) rather than say - hard work. Since, for us here, cold fusion is more than fiction the film does little to counter the perception that the field is "flakey" and "pathological" since Liz Shue's character is just that. Here, I think Eugene Mallove got burned by the sexist plot - I think the visual rhetoric is important here: Liz Shue's character isn't shown doing a bit of scientific work in the film - and its all done by the blithering Russian scientist. Actually, I think 'Chain Reaction' was a little better in this respect since there were actually images of Keanu Reeves doing some bench-work). 2. There is a nice, but underdeveloped, twist where the Russian villian decides to feed a supposedly hoax cold fusion to the President (of Russia) in order to stage a coup. This mimics popular perceptions and reconstructions of the history of the case (some people really do think Fleischmann and Pons' staged a hoax for personal gain) but then the twist - the hoax turns out to be real and all this appears in the context of a very public demonstration and the villian is sent to the Gulag (very portentous). For those who've seen the film - are there any CF researchers out there who have managed to get that bright beam of light to come out of their CF cells? :-) Seriously though, the film is great in terms of my own sociological research on what makes a public demonstration convincing - clearly, the CETI apparatus would not do the trick for a mob of angry citizens. Oh, lastly - according to Elizabeth Shue - the key reaction pathway we're looking for is one which produces helium :-) cheers, Bart Simon (bssimon helix.ucsd.edu) ============================================ Bart Simon Dept. of Sociology/Science Studies-0533 University of California at San Diego (UCSD) 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA, 92093-0533 phone: 619-534-0491/fax: 619-534-3388 =========================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 13:21:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA26116; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: "Scudder,Henry J" To: "tom gorge.net" , Vortex-L Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:07:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"u88-f1.0.vN6.xLLIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tom I believe a lot of lodestone comes from fossil bacteria, so your low field strength magnetization makes sense. Eddy-current loss comes from the friction of these moving domains. Hank Scudder ---------- From: tom gorge.net To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets Date: Saturday, April 05, 1997 12:48PM Greg: My education and knowledge base is not sufficient for me to attempt to defend this "idea" adequately before serious scientists. My *opinion* is not derived from superior knowledge, but from basic logic. 1. Iron cores of transformers, etc. are subject to complete reversal of the magnetic fields induced in them 50-60 times per second for decades. Is it reasonable to assume that "domains" consisting of 10^15 atoms could rotate 180 degrees, 120 times per second, without common friction at the Bloch walls causing a rapid meltdown? Or, is friction magically absent in this particular case? 2. In another discussion site (which I frequent) a question was raised: "What caused the magnetization of lodestone?" No one has come up with anything like a reasonable answer. If permanent magnetism is induced by a High powered magnetic field, to align the domains, where did this powerful magnetic field come from?? If, on the other hand, the atoms/molecules of magnetite were in solution, they could be aligned by a relatively small magnetic field, assuming that field held true while the solution hardened. 3. As to whether electrons "spin around" the nucleus; or if they "spin" around their own axis, I don't have any idea. BUT Assuming that both nuclei and electrons "spin," and that these spins somehow cause magnetic fields, is it not reasonable that these spins can be aligned to an external field (even within their lattice) more easily than can be "domains" of 10^15 atoms? Is it reasonable to assume that atoms in a crystal lattice are not free to align with an external magnetic field, but that much larger "domains" can align easily? I know this isn't any kind of proof, but maybe it will stimulate some "outside the square" thinking. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 14:19:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA25417; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:15:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:15:37 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970408091538.008ef8c4 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 05:15:38 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: CF chain reactions Resent-Message-ID: <"vutPv2.0.1D6.tFMIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:30 PM 4/6/97 -0800, Bob Horst wrote: > >When I spoke with Reding, my understanding was that beads from the same batch >went into multiple cells, and some of those cells worked, while others did not. >I suppose it is still possible that only portions of the batch were bad, but it >seems very unlikely that any cell would get all bad beads while others got >mostly good beads. > >-- Bob Horst > I agree that it is unlikely that 5% of the cells would get only bad beads. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 14:20:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA03254; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:00:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Can't eat oil Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:59:06 +0000 Message-ID: <19970407205904.AAA17837 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"XceRe1.0.ko.L1MIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nice Fight! The ammonia synthesis plants that produce megatons of anhydrous ammonia and additional megatons of urea, worldwide; 2 NH3 (ammonia)+ CO2 = NH2-CO-NH2 (urea)+ H2O are clean enough to produce food grade products. Obviously, the nitrogen is coming out of the air. The CO2 can come from the air and/or enormous limestone deposits and combustion of fossil fuels or biomass.The hydrogen can come from water, fossil fuels, or biomass. The polymer plastics (like nylon )are so close to a food-grade protein that it tempts one to make a carpet sandwich. :-) The "technology" is already on line, it's just a matter of modifying process streams to meet demand. These are all "cookbook" engineering exercises that are driven only by demand or politics. As a matter of fact if you extrapolate the ingredients of some of the plastics back to water, ammonia, carbon oxides, and especially acetylene-cyanides in the "primordial soup" you will see that these react with water to make proteins, polysaccharides and the DNA-RNA molecules. Had some fun conversations on this with Carl Sagan a couple of years ago. The polymerization steps used in the industry are actually very close to growth and fission of proteins that could have been a primative form of "self replication" similar to cell growth and division. The World's problems, other than an abundant clean energy source, are not technical, only political. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 14:20:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA25824; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:17:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:17:45 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:21:39 -0800 To: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Good Movie Resent-Message-ID: <"AmcFq2.0.PJ6.tHMIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 4:59 AM 4/7/97, Bart Simon wrote: [snip] >This mimics popular >perceptions and reconstructions of the history of the case (some >people really do think Fleischmann and Pons' staged a hoax for >personal gain) but then the twist - the hoax turns out to be real and >all this appears in the context of a very public demonstration and >the villian is sent to the Gulag (very portentous). > Hello Bart, It sems inconceivable that scientists of high moral character and achievement, and not so far from retirement age, would do such a thing for profit, don't you think? Surely not for a joke either. The joke has gone on far too long and P&F have endured the grilling of a lifetime, many times over. If it was a hoax, it must have been a hoax with a purpose, don't you think? Did you get the print of the CF booth from the Simpsons producers? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 15:41:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA16676; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:31:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Oil Company Credibility, PAGD Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:11:31 +0000 Message-ID: <19970407181121.AAB24525 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"PEW2V2.0.N44.zMNIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Something I really enjoy about reading the Vortex postings is the optimism and enthusiasm of the members. I can reasonably be described as pessimistic, though I hold out an expectation that exploitable high energy reactions will be accepted as the cause of the CF anomalies. What I really am trying to understand is how seemingly substantial evidence can be so casually assumed to be nonsense by the majority of scientists. I have read several articles on the Correa device, besides a patent, and have spoken with Dr. Correa after hearing him lecture. He is a very intelligent and perceptive person, highly trained in physical science. It was humbling for me, being only trained in basic undergraduate physics, but I know enough to comprehend well the significance of his test data, as well as the simplicity of verification. While it is understandable that he would present his data in a most positive light, what I saw was so astonishing that I wish to address Mike Carrell about what else he has been able to glean from the Correas in addition to his IE articles. Has Mike had any further contacts with them? As I am writing this, video of the infamous 'Alien Autopsy' is on the TV screen and the irony of how well accepted that is by perhaps millions of people as credible, in spite of the fact that such a presentation could be faked with no great expense, no physical evidence exists, no repeatability exists and the origin of the film is shrouded in mystery, irks me. In stark contrast stands the Correas' work. It is quite conceivable that the Correas know that the Pulse Anomalous Glow Discharge device is indeed everything it is claimed to be and the one great unknown they now have to deal with is the devestating effect that such huge and sudden success can bring with it. It may be that they wish to arrange negotiations in secret and so have a firm foundation when the sensation hits the popular culture. It may be that they purposely wish to avoid confirmation by independent researchers to avoid becoming too credible too fast and risk losing control of their lives. And, of course, any party with whom they are negotiating agreements would be in a similar situation. The essay 'Timely Considerations at the Edge of Space' on their web-page clearly states that the imperative is not on limitless clean energy so much as a complete revision of physics because humans are unable to adequately deal with the present crises confronting us. Physics is much more than the mining of nature's secrets for consumption. Once a scientific theory takes and whatever implications become apparent, the societal impact is huge. For the Correas to make such claims and then be found out to be wrong would be devestating to their credibility because it would appear to be fraud much more than a mere mistake simply because of the apparent ease with with the measurements are made. Supposing it was fraud, how could he hide the fact that it did not work and expect some kind of reward? Why would he even want to try such a stunt? It makes no sense at all that it is fraud. Such speculations have been running through my mind since first reading the patent. While I admire Hal Puthoff's stance that Big Oil has nothing to gain by suppressing such advances in energy technology, out of his willingness to think well of people and not assume malicious intent, I have to ask him what other kind of reply might reasonably be expected to a question directed at oil company executives, asking if they would welcome such radically impacting technology. Would saavy businessmen volunteer that their irreplaceable reserves become more and more valuable as the supply runs low, and so even with higher production costs, as long as energy demand can be met by no other source, prices and profits could escalate indefinately? Would they see any advantage to admitting to harboring any ill-will towards developers of new energy? I think it is in their best interests to be seen as benevolent and wise as any politician knows. The spectre of conspiracy need not be invoked. Normal business practice is to want for one's own success and to want one's competitors to not be a threat, but to admit that may be to fear being seen as weak or greedy in a society overly concerned with image. Credibility is an essence of political power and credibility is much like a commodity (in my experience). Scientists create such power, but cannot handle sole responsibility for it. Is it reasonable to expect that individuals who make careers of managing power would use their power to optimize control over the processes of credibility assignment in order to protect their interests. This is not a conclusion, but a speculation about a mechanism of politics. "Yet every theory is speculative" (Einstein). It's relevance to new energy breakthroughs is debatable and important to understanding what may be happening. I realize that some individuals on this list would rather I did not post such musings on this list. I certainly do not mean to disrespect their wishes and I wonder if I should stop posting this stuff. I wish to elucidate how the credibility of scientific claims is built on a shadowy non-empirical basis, in a broader than scientific community sense. I would not be resentful if those who control this forum wish for me to stop posting this kind of material. On the contrary, I feel fortunate to have been read at all by such individuals and would restrict myself to issues of scientific data and its interpretation if directed to do so. Ed Wall President Clinton advocating abstaining from sex outside of marriage is like Pol Pot advocating peaceful resolution of political conflicts. He may be right, but the experience he may be speaking from would declare him a hypocrite. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 15:57:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA15461; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:53:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:53:51 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:53:24 PST8PDT Subject: Re: Can't eat oil Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <9006706EE4 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"7rAHr1.0.Vn3.-hNIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > As a matter of fact if you extrapolate the ingredients of > some of the plastics back to water, ammonia, carbon oxides, > and especially acetylene-cyanides in the "primordial soup" you > will see that these react with water to make proteins, > polysaccharides and the DNA-RNA molecules. > Regards, Frederick Well golly gee whiz! Why not put a few chemicals together, add some radiation to speed up mutations and observe the "dawn of life" right on your table at home? If I recall, experiments trying to reproduce this effect hit a brick wall after forming some basic amino acids. No proteins, and definately no DNA-RNA molecules. Several types of energy were used, including heat, electricity, shock waves, etc. and they all hit the same brick wall at the level of amino acids. JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 16:09:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA16679; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:59:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:59:55 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970407160041.00baba1c mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 16:00:43 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: Good Movie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"nT_692.0.X44.gnNIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: No, what was it !? At 01:21 PM 4/7/97 -0800, you wrote: > >Did you get the print of the CF booth from the Simpsons producers? > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 17:12:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA31072; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:00:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:00:12 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Can't eat oil Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:58:19 +0000 Message-ID: <19970407235817.AAA2584 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"RI-AO3.0.Qb7.BgOIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:53 PM 4/7/97 PST8PDT, you wrote: > >> As a matter of fact if you extrapolate the ingredients of >> some of the plastics back to water, ammonia, carbon oxides, >> and especially acetylene-cyanides in the "primordial soup" you >> will see that these react with water to make proteins, >> polysaccharides and the DNA-RNA molecules. > >> Regards, Frederick > > Well golly gee whiz! Why not put a few chemicals together, add >some radiation to speed up mutations and observe the "dawn of life" >right on your table at home? If I recall, experiments trying to >reproduce this effect hit a brick wall after forming some basic amino >acids. No proteins, and definately no DNA-RNA molecules. Several >types of energy were used, including heat, electricity, shock waves, >etc. and they all hit the same brick wall at the level of amino >acids. > >JAY OLSON > > You don't use a sledge hammer to make a Swiss watch, or dynamite to build a house, do you? :-) Chemicals like Magnesium-Calcium Carbide-Cyanamide that are "Cosmic Dusts" supposedly blown off supernovas will yield diacetylene etc.,when reacted with water and then when reacted with water and carbon oxides at room temperature will make sugars and carboxylic acids. The carboxylic acids like acrylic acid and such used in plastics synthesis will react with ammonia to make an amino acid. BTW. the local meat market has plenty of DNA for sale at about $1.60/pound. Never make what you can buy, except a "living bra", perhaps? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 17:23:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA31120; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:00:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:00:21 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:04:08 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Good Movie Resent-Message-ID: <"I5jP53.0.4c7.JgOIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >No, what was it !? > > >At 01:21 PM 4/7/97 -0800, you wrote: >> >>Did you get the print of the CF booth from the Simpsons producers? >> >>Regards, >> >>Horace Heffner >> >> >> Some time ago Bart Simon posted a request for information about or a copy of a still frame from the Simpsons epsiode where there is a cold fusion booth in the background. I was inquiring as to whether his request eventually got satsified. BTW, the movie "The Saint" was very enjoyable even if the confrontational scene with a reporter about a certain unfavorable magazine was cut. I stayed to watch all the credits. Gene Mallove's credit was there just fine. Also BTW, the cold fusion cell looked to be more of a water gas kind of contraption, with carbon arc and all, except it sure would be scary (and unlikely!) to light up the sky with radiation like that that one did. Looked like HARRP times ten in the sky. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 17:59:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA05969; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:50:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:49:28 PST8PDT Subject: Re: Can't eat oil Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <91F5F43C84 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"a6F-D.0.BT1.HPPIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Chemicals like Magnesium-Calcium Carbide-Cyanamide that > are "Cosmic Dusts" supposedly blown off supernovas will > yield diacetylene etc.,when reacted with water and then > when reacted with water and carbon oxides at room temperature > will make sugars and carboxylic acids. > The carboxylic acids like acrylic acid and such used in plastics > synthesis will react with ammonia to make an amino acid. Ok, I can see where you are coming from, but just because you have amino acids doesn't mean you have proteins. And just because you have sugars doesn't mean you have DNA. To say thay you have proteins just because you have amino acid is like saying you have a car because you have lots of nuts and bolts lying around. Usefull proteins are very sophisticated little items. > BTW. the local meat market has plenty of DNA for sale at > about $1.60/pound. Never make what you can buy, except > a "living bra", perhaps? :-) > > Regards, Frederick My point exactly! You get proteins and DNA from organisms, not "primordial soup." The fact that evolution theory requires these increadibly complex molecules to spontaneously form and interact kind of blows my confidence in a lot of it. That's one reason I'd never make a decent biologist, I'd always be bringing math (that darn probability stuff) into evolution theory. At least in physics you can replicate most experiments nessisary to prove a point. (Uh oh, I may have just gotten myself into trouble there... :). And in physics, mathematics is usually a friend. Creatively yours, JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 18:25:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA13466; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:21:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:21:57 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Laser Motors? Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 01:21:13 +0000 Message-ID: <19970408012111.AAA27872 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"PojdB.0.DI3.psPIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians: In the 1950's it was touted that an iron-rhodium alloy that exhibited "antiferromagnetic" properties was going to be "the motor of the future". Seems that this alloy will turn magnetic when raised in temperature. The cited idea was to put the alloy on the perimeter of a disk and heat it in spots whereupon it was pulled into the gap of permanent magnets arranged around the perimeter of the disk thus making a motor as it reverted back to the non-magnetic state when it cooled. Seems that lasers could be used to put the heat in on this, or even to take ferromagnetic materials in a similar arrangement up to the Curie temperature. Carnot limited? No I O.U.'s... please. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 18:41:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA14050; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:24:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:24:20 -0700 From: bpaddock execpc.com (Bob Paddock) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Competition, 'We the willing' Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 21:15:28 -0400 Reply-To: bpaddock execpc.com Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Lines: 24 Resent-Message-ID: <"gjPiE1.0.SR3.3vPIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >We the willing, >Lead by the unknowing, >Are doing the impossible for the ungrateful; >We have done so much, >For so long, >For so little; >That they think, we are now qualified to do anything, >With nothing... I always liked the last line as "With nothing forever". The preface to Murphy's Law: We, the willing; Lead by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little. That we are now capable of doing any thing with nothing forever. -- For information on any of the following check out my WEB site at: http://www.usachoice.net/bpaddock Chemical Free Air Conditioning/No CFC's, Chronic Pain Relief, Electromedicine, Electronics, Explore!, Free Energy, Full Disclosure, KeelyNet, Matric Limited, Neurophone, Oil City PA, Philadelphia Experiment. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 18:49:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA11166; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:42:10 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Can't eat oil Resent-Message-ID: <"KtGqT1.0.Ok2.D6QIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Maybe a more logical question is: can we synthesize food for our food? It is true we can synthsize some furtilizers. How about food for algae which is eaten by cows, chickens, etc.? Seems like a much easier problem. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 19:16:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA22533; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:14:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:14:18 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Can't eat oil Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:13:31 +0000 Message-ID: <19970408021328.AAA1701 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"Ptefg.0.xV5.vdQIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:42 AM 4/8/97 +0000, Horace wrote: >Maybe a more logical question is: can we synthesize food for our food? It >is true we can synthsize some furtilizers. How about food for algae which >is eaten by cows, chickens, etc.? Seems like a much easier problem. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > Why bother with the middle link? Go vegetarian-hydroponic,all you need is the lights, water and mineral nutrients;spaghetti-squash, soybeans, limabeans and good old Southwestern pintobeans. Don't know about John's flatulence "problem" though. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 19:21:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA14636; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: 07 Apr 97 22:07:35 EDT From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Good Movie Message-ID: <970408020734_76570.2270_FHU70-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"C_9kz1.0.ba3.tZQIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vortexians, While I appreciate many of Bart Simon's remarks and I am glad to see comment on the movie, I disagree with some of Bart's statements. My responses: "I'll second Ron's recommendation, I just saw the film yesterday and I was amazed to hear Fleischmann and Pons' names mentioned right up front." In Infinite Energy #11, I discussed very clearly that Fleischmann and Pons's work was explicitly referred to. In fact, in the script, their names were even more prominently mentioned! That they are in there at all is fantastic. I strongly recommended that their names be prominently mentioned. I regret that the swipe at Nature magazine was edited out. The nerdy "reporter" was supposed to be a man from Nature. Bart wrote: "1. I was a little distressed but not surprised at the way the success of cold fusion in the film is cast as a matter of faith (in believing in something no matter what) rather than say - hard work. Since, for us here, cold fusion is more than fiction the film does little to counter the perception that the field is "flakey" and "pathological" since Liz Shue's character is just that. " Liz Shue, in my opinion, hardly comes off as flakey! Sure, she loves poetry and art and is a bit messy with her apartment -- but many scientists fit that mold. The film's intent (apart from making money!) was to show the triumph of a heretical idea -- and it indeed triumphs in the film, much as it is now triumphing commercially on several fronts. Bart does not understand that because he has the misguided notion that there is actually some doubt about the basic cold fusion evidence. This is NOT an academic excercise any longer (it hasn;t been for a while). It is a *race* to commercialize an obviously real phenomenon. That the academics like APS's Robert Park and other like-minded lunatics and bigots don't accept cold fusion is irrelevant. "Here, I think Eugene Mallove got burned by the sexist plot - I think the visual rhetoric is important here: Liz Shue's character isn't shown doing a bit of scientific work in the film" Hell, she had done all the work already before she made her entrance!! That was the point of the plot! The film was anything but sexist. Don't confuse sexy with sexist -- unless you htink "skin" is sexist. We saw a lot of Val's skin too! One change I noticed -- how could I not! -- was that the formulas were hidden in Liz's bra, and later absconded with -- they were not simply e-mailed to Russia. Yes, there was some e-mailing, but the new touch was a nice twist. I would have liked to have done some serious close range consulting on that aspect of the movie, even though it is not my area of expertise :) I *was* asked to recommend several female CF scientists for Liz to talk to to learn how to "lecture" as a scientist. I suggested Deborah Rolison at NRL and Carol Talcott Storms. But it turned out that Shue "winged it." I think she did a good job. I was going to call Ed Storms and catch him off guard: "Say Ed, I need your wife Carol to give a hooker some lessons!" -- referring, of course, to Shue's role in "Leaving Las Vegas.' "and its all done by the blithering Russian scientist." The Russian scientist was successful even if imbued with the nasty sterotypes -- bumbling, unkempt, etc, but you forgot the key point at which Shue's "improved formula" is passed to him and he thereby has success. "Actually, I think 'Chain Reaction' was a little better in this respect since there were actually images of Keanu Reeves doing some bench-work). Yes, Keanu was shown doing bench work, but Chain Reaction as a whole does not even begin to hold a candle to the fine acting in The Saint, in my opinion. Bart is the first person I have heard say that Chain Reaction is better. "2. There is a nice, but underdeveloped, twist where the Russian villian decides to feed a supposedly hoax cold fusion to the President (of Russia) in order to stage a coup. This mimics popular perceptions and reconstructions of the history of the case (some people really do think Fleischmann and Pons' staged a hoax for personal gain) but then the twist - the hoax turns out to be real and all this appears in the context of a very public demonstration and the villian is sent to the Gulag (very portentous)." Yes, I thought that was wonderful! It shows the villain calling cold fusion a "fairy tale," then he is carted away -- just like the anti-CF people will be! Note that in the very week that this film comes out we have the TFTR mothballed. Before too many more moons the magnetic hot fusion program will be gutted to practically zero. So there is a parallel. "For those who've seen the film - are there any CF researchers out there who have managed to get that bright beam of light to come out of their CF cells? :-)" Yes, some have -- Morningstar in Ohio, but they are being very secretive. It is NOT a beam, but it sure as hell is bright! I was the one who suggested that whole glowing apparatus at the end, though the actual light beam was the idea of the script-writers. "Seriously though, the film is great in terms of my own sociological research on what makes a public demonstration convincing - clearly, the CETI apparatus would not do the trick for a mob of angry citizens." You have not yet seen what CETI can do in public. Just wait a few more months... I'll say no more. But they better hurry up, because BlackLight Power has got quite a show to put on, as we have been seeing. Money talks. "Oh, lastly - according to Elizabeth Shue - the key reaction pathway we're looking for is one which produces helium :-)" Well, let's cut her some slack on that. Helium is clearly present in some CF cells -- Bockris et al found it, Miles found it, Arata has it in spades, and E-Quest has it too, so do the Italians. There is likely to be no one CF process. It is an entirely new realm of physics. Mills can be right AND mainstream CF can be right at the same time -- there is commonality. Best, Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 19:34:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA16207; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3349AB82.557D interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 22:20:50 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Can't eat oil References: <91F5F43C84 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nK2kB2.0.9z3.sjQIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jay Olson wrote: > (snip) > My point exactly! You get proteins and DNA from organisms, not > "primordial soup." The fact that evolution theory requires these > increadibly complex molecules to spontaneously form and interact kind > of blows my confidence in a lot of it. That's one reason I'd never > make a decent biologist, I'd always be bringing math (that darn > probability stuff) into evolution theory. Jay, there's one more ingredient to include in that primordial soup - maybe a BILLION YEARS of time. How do we know what the first "life" was really like? Does'nt a virus reproduce by using the complex parts of living cells? One wonders if the first virus-like life (if that's even a good guess!) could, perhaps, "make do" with more simple compounds found in the primordial soup. When you have a billion years, volcanos, UV radiation, comet impacts, lightning, etc., maybe Mother nature even spit out a Patterson bead now and then - and just threw it away as useless at the time! I think the time factor and the number of reactions going on at any given time will never be duplicated in a college lab. Of course, you still need that "first virus thing" to get the ball rolling! Even a worst biologist than physicist ----- Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 20:04:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA20955; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:59:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:59:05 PST8PDT Subject: Re: wrong, proteins have been made Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <941EE26044 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"sS3Yp2.0.L75.ZIRIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > No proteins, and definately no DNA-RNA molecules. Several > >types of energy were used, including heat, electricity, shock waves, > >etc. and they all hit the same brick wall at the level of amino > .............................................................................. > ......................... > Synthetic proteins have been made. > > See "Frontiers of Science" June 14 1969 > > Frank Znidarsic I won't pretend like I read the article (is it on the net?), but I presume these proteins were made step-by-step instead of through one big mix of chemicals stimulated by some form of energy. I don't deny that proteins can be engineered, but random reactions forming proteins is more than I can stomach. Even if over the course of millions of years it happened a few times, the proteins would almost certainly be destroyed by the same energy sources that produced them. And for DNA and RNA to work, you need codons and a ribosome at the very, very least! Still not convinced, but keep on trying :) JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 20:05:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA27094; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:43:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:43:09 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:42:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970407223716_1486345974 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: wrong, proteins have been made Resent-Message-ID: <"q0WHs3.0.Gd6.y2RIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No proteins, and definately no DNA-RNA molecules. Several >types of energy were used, including heat, electricity, shock waves, >etc. and they all hit the same brick wall at the level of amino .............................................................................. ......................... Synthetic proteins have been made. See "Frontiers of Science" June 14 1969 Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 20:30:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA31375; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:05:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:05:14 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:05:00 PST8PDT Subject: can't eat oil Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <9438091530 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"6DBgr1.0.6g7.eNRIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jay Olson wrote: > > > (snip) > > My point exactly! You get proteins and DNA from organisms, > > not > > "primordial soup." The fact that evolution theory requires these > > increadibly complex molecules to spontaneously form and interact > > kind of blows my confidence in a lot of it. That's one reason I'd > > never make a decent biologist, I'd always be bringing math (that > > darn probability stuff) into evolution theory. > > Jay, there's one more ingredient to include in that primordial soup > - maybe a BILLION YEARS of time. How do we know what the first > "life" was really like? Does'nt a virus reproduce by using the > complex parts of living cells? One wonders if the first virus-like > life (if that's even a good guess!) could, perhaps, "make do" with > more simple compounds found in the primordial soup. When you have a > billion years, volcanos, UV radiation, comet impacts, lightning, > etc., maybe Mother nature even spit out a Patterson bead now and > then - and just threw it away as useless at the time! I think the > time factor and the number of reactions going on at any given time > will never be duplicated in a college lab. Of course, you still > need that "first virus thing" to get the ball rolling! Well, I can see where this is going... Not that I don't like the debate, but it's probably not relevant to Vortex. I guess we can "agree to disagree" on this point. I can possibly accept that given a billion years nature could produce SOMETHING that was self-replicating, but the human body is too well engineered to come from mutations and natural selection. So many systems are irreducably complex, so that if one part of the system is not in working order, the whole system fails. But any mutation that is to be passed on to future generations must impart selective advantage. So it's tough to come up with muscle contraction, nerve impulses, etc. etc. etc. unless individual parts of these systems impart selective advantage on their own. And most parts of these systems are WORTHLESS unless the whole thing operates together. I guess someone could suggest that the whole thing came about from ONE mutation, but that would be even more unbelievable! Anyway, I'll shut up now. :) > Even a worst biologist than physicist ----- Frank Stenger Don't SAY things like that! JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 20:42:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA04297; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:39:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:39:13 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3349BDD8.184D math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 20:39:04 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Good Movie References: <970408020734_76570.2270_FHU70-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"27iEh3.0.231.WtRIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Interesting that a Hollywood movie is the biggest news in CF :-) Eugene Mallove wrote: > Note that in the very week that this film comes out we have > the TFTR mothballed. Before too many more moons the magnetic > hot fusion program will be gutted to practically zero. I'm glad to see you are no longer making quantitative predictions. Lest readers be mislead, here is a previous mallovian prophecy: ``The tokamak program will be utterly destroyed by excess energy devices of the cold fusion variety. I give hot fusion two years more, tops.'' --Mallove, sci.physics.fusion newsgroup, 7/15/94 I think we can all admit that the the above prediction turned out to be totally incorrect. Indeed, if anything it is the japanese cold fusion research program that is going to vanish. Folks: don't forget who lost the Merriman-Mallove bet http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry/CF/mmbet.html due to their penchant for wildly overestimating the viability of "cold fusion". Also, to Gene and Jed: you must be greatly dismayed that while the US funding for hot fusion research has declined, the overall global funding is on the rise. The japanese have a very agressive hot fusion program and will probably in effect absorb what would have been the future of the US program. Even more to your dismay, Korea, which had no fusion research program **at all** until last year, just started an agressive tokamak program to the tune of over $100 million per year, picking up the TPX design that the US paid for but failed to follow through on. Perhaps Jed can explain to us why >There is no measurable chance that the [tokamak] program will ever >result in a practical form of energy --Jed Rothwell yet the Koreans, who had no legacy investment in tokamaks fusion research at all, have decide to go on a crash tokamak development course. I almost forgot to mention that China is also ramping up its tokamak/hot fusion research program and also wants to join in the ITER international collaboration to build a high power tokamak. You really must warn these people that tokamaks can never yield practical energy---someone is apparently grossly misleading their scientists :-) -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 21:44:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA14790; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:42:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:42:03 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970408044045.00691b1c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 00:40:45 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Gene's letter in the Wall Street Journal 3/31/97 Resent-Message-ID: <"s63Yt.0.wc3.PoSIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene Mallove's letter in the Wall Street Journal 3/31/97 is worth getting. The factual corrections regarding solar surface temperature and reproduction of F+P Pd/D2O are well done and timely. Too bad the Wall Street Journal can't get it right. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 21:46:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA15235; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:44:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:44:36 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970408044313.006ad618 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 00:43:13 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Good Movie Resent-Message-ID: <"s5tJq1.0.zj3.pqSIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:59 PM 4/7/97 +0000, Bart Simon wrote: > >For those who've seen the film - are there any CF researchers out >there who have managed to get that bright beam of light to come out >of their CF cells? :-) We managed to light a light last year for a short time, and reported an earlier experiment using a tiny LED in Fusion Facts. Jan 28, 96. The delta T was about 40 C, and the peak voltage out was circa 1.5 volts. The system had about 9 watts in, a larger thermal output, and even put a watt into the light source. The experiment was written up in Fusion Facts. For the record, Bart (and colleagues) here is the UUENCODED gif, taken at the time. At some point we may put the picture of the entire set up at the web site. begin 755 jetenergyledjan2896.jpg M_]C_X``02D9)1 `!`0```0`!``#_VP!#``4#!`0$`P4$!`0%!04&!PP(!P<' M!P\+"PD,$0\2$A$/$1$3%AP7$Q0:%1$1&"$8&AT='Q\?$Q)!P>'Q[_ MVP!#`04%!0<&!PX("`X>%!$4'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX> M'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'A[_P``1"`!>`#L#`2(``A$!`Q$!_\0` M'P```04!`0$!`0$```````````$"`P0%! <("0H+_\0`M1```@$#`P($`P4% M!`0```%]`0(#``01!1(A,4$&$U%A!R)Q%#*!D:$((T*QP152T?`D,V)R @D* M%A<8&1HE)B7J#A(6&AXB)BI*3E)66EYB9FJ*CI*6FIZBIJK*SM+6VM[BYNL+#Q,7& MQ\C)RM+3U-76U]C9VN'BX^3EYN?HZ>KQ\O/T]?;W^/GZ_\0`'P$``P$!`0$! M`0$!`0````````$"`P0%! <("0H+_\0`M1$``@$"!`0#!`<%!`0``0)W``$" M`Q$$!2$Q!A)!40=A<1,B,H$(%$*1H;'!"2,S4O`58G+1"A8D-.$E\1<8&1HF M)R I*C4V-S@Y.D-$149'2$E*4U155E=865IC9&5F9VAI:G-T=79W>'EZ@H.$ MA8:'B(F*DI.4E9:7F)F:HJ.DI::GJ*FJLK.TM;:WN+FZPL/$Q<;'R,G*TM/4 MU=;7V-G:XN/DY>;GZ.GJ\O/T]?;W^/GZ_]H`#`,!``(1`Q$`/P#XRHHHH`** M**`"G+][\:::?&,N!ZD5I3UD /HK2M0CL?#5HO.]HAA5ZG@?E4)O;^8^:LD2 M*W(7:.!V[U%::O'_`->NZ2YFV^YY M\HMMOS/F.BBG*<,#Z'->:> .*D#."!3?QKN/`%II6N:M';:D84B2-Y75G"&7 M:,[`<'D '&!UKE]8:P.IS?8[*6U@60J(S-O(`/J1UJ(SYM&M3JQ%"-+E<973 M5S-J2#'G+DXY%$WE>8?*W;.V[&:-WR$*H`.,\9_7M6L7RM,Y3Z?T!`-(M58 MD0J"1QQT_G_GBM:)&?$^HZ)>QW$9^TQQ=(I78A1[<\?K7HL? MQ5T:1`\T%[%(?O( !4'VYKK.3Q/#*T4@PRGFHZNR/\`:K;+ M`>=".O=E_P#K53[UPQ=UKN=;5ARLR,&5B".A!J25E=0^XESPV?YU#TKH/!.D M0:SJDMO7J1DKC`IO1-]M05WH<]13G&&(]#BFT"%!(.14RS(%`:$,? M7UJ"EYIIV%8Z;1_#+7/ C4O%PUO3(8K&^AL)+%Q/]ID>=7,93$9CVE8ICRX( M\IN,E`W.3ILE:/\`NL17?^!/%/ASP[HMC93MK%Q-/K=IJM\T*BW^Q-:+22++I3>AX%X9T.VU<7,E[XCT;0;:#:IGU!Y MFWNV=JK'!')*W"L2VS8N`&8%D#>C^"OAQK.C7.K1ZS=:?9:O%87\B:0TCOX&&D#'RB0I#(6Y'P'/X!T[7-3N]?O-9FCM\C16718+I' M?<<37,#W**=J $1;G0N1O+HK))WMK\2-%7P?XGTC3M1\62V%U_:+/87VR0:I M-<3!H=0NKD2;DN(PEME%C96-NV&`GEHEK%KNK#B[79R/A3X=3^(O#*^(%U#2 M]-L!)\MT&P,E_':*>_FN[Y+[2;>'7)-1 T MG3;*W>"^LFBMX8]*EDS$8;=8K2.,E4D60,&>,F-=VEU;8SL[WN>&7=N]K.T+ ME2RG!P:KU-VHU>VHE+GBK5S:3V\ICGCV$`,>A&#W! M'!JNB,^=HZO:3JL=^9;,S#^T]0,BR))-/X?N_,:O9V/'+R9;BZDF6)(0[% B#"K[`4W8%C+E\. M# +CGZU;NH)[$JLUHT,J\'<.#D?X8_R:HNQ=RS'DT+LMA*UK#0.*45=V116D M4L0 +Q2*RKE9"B7#_.^Y'KCM-UOQ;9C2WL?%6L6ITD3'3?)O94^ MQ^;GS?)PW[O?D[MN-V>*/%NOW5A>ZUXLU[4+S3I?,LI[K49I7MGR#NC M9F)0Y13D8.5'H*R<^5:ZG;##^TE?9%WXV7%OJ/Q-USPU+I^ :'INC>(-1@M9 M]-T6&WD\CS0B1R>0J>8J"+Y2P+9=\L<8PH&TGY[U*94AE295DU>=E$D;AT;!?JKJK M`]05!'(J(U]->IK/!-1]T]3\3_!WP)J?C&[GF\Q*=[)R#M+\%N8A^$GPJU&.(VGCR=&EU*^T\-#!YL+-:+'+-+', M2$:`12!O--/',]RUTWCCQ-]K%W]J\_^U9]_G^5Y/FYW9W^ M5^[W==GRYQQ5C2/'WQ`T35+._A\7ZQ>1V=S-=);7>H3O$9)ED69\!P4=UFF! MD0K(#(S*RM\U:QJ1^&QRSPTU%2.LE^$? F[UB[LO#OQ&OM3M=.97U:>'1XIE MM+/R)Y9;M=ET?-BA:%4IQQVUW?1O >Oh, lastly - according to Elizabeth Shue - the key reaction pathway >we're looking for is one which produces helium :-) > Come on, Bart. You know the script had the fictional character being correct in the He-4 accounts for about 1/3 of the ash in Pd/heavy water systems. And we should probably thank Gene for making sure that they all got that correct. ;-)X Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 23:40:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA31492; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:38:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:38:49 -0700 Date: 07 Apr 97 18:04:15 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Can't eat oil Message-ID: <970407220414_72240.1256_EHB60-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"nURcb3.0.-h7.tVUIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I pointed out that I cannot "prove" the economic viability of food synthesis yet, because the technology has not even been invented. Therefore it would be premature to make "a cost breakdown and project a year long budget that proves your point for a population of 500,000 . . ." That would be absurd. Before Kitty Hawk you could never "prove" that airplanes might replace ocean liners. All you do is speculate based on the known laws of nature and on historical precedents. In response, John Steck wrote: Hmmm. That could have save me a lot of typing and rational thought. I didn't realize we were talking wishes and pipe dreams here. In that case I propose CF should give us world peace as well. Zeal is good. Directionless passion isn't. That is not effective debate, and I do not think it is appropriate to this forum. I made a number of specific, carefully framed responses to Steck's points: 1. He said that the raw materials would be eaten by rats. I showed that the very sentence he quoted said the raw material might be oil, which is not edible by any mammal. I added that sewage might also be a raw material. This is available in quantity in any settlement. In most third world villages it is used as fertilizer, spread by hand on the fields. This is filthy disgusting work. It spreads germs everywhere. My friends in Japan who used to do this don't recommend it. It would be far more hygienic to treat the sewage in enclosed stainless steel factory equipment at high temperatures. 2. He said that transport would be a problem, I pointed out that oil is much easier to transport than corn or other foodstuffs. It is also much easier to store. 3. He implied that taste would not be good. Clarke quotes experts saying it will eventually be indistinguishable from natural foods. Why shouldn't it? If Steck does not wish to address the technical points, that's fine. But he does not fool anyone or win any brownie points by posting insulting nonsense about "rational thought" and "directionless passion." I think that I have made a good case here in favor of research into food synthesis. I believe my arguments are grounded on the known laws of nature, and on history. Steck's response adds nothing to the debate. It is an admission that he cannot think of any rigorous counter-arguments, so he must resort to gratuitous insults instead. Dan Quickert writes: Farming is only environmentally destructive when it is done improperly, just as any human endeavor. There are methods of farming which are not only environmentally benign, but which enhance and build fertility and general ecosystem stability. That is correct. Unfortunately, farming is almost always done improperly. Very few farmers understand the less-destructive techniques, and even fewer can afford to use them. In many places, like Japan, traditional techniques built fertility and preserved the ecosystem, but these techniques have now been supplanted by more economical techniques which yield more crops per hectare, but which ravage the landscape and destroy the land. Would you like to compare the effects of a spill of the food factory's raw material (oil) with that of a sustainable farm (cover crop seed, water)? All farms routinely spill seed, water, fertilizer, insecticide, and topsoil. Livestock produce massive amounts of manure (sewage) -- much more than a natural population of mammals on the same land area, which have lower population density. Spilling chemicals is the standard operating procedure on a farm. You spray insecticide and fertilizer every which direction in orchards; believe me, it gets everywhere. (Been there, done that.) You try to spray when you expect no rain for a week, but inevitably the stuff washes off the trees and gets into the surrounding countryside. Farmers try to limit spills as much as possible, but in all cases, the rivers and lands around farms are choked with what would be called "industrial waste" -- if you consider agriculture a form of industry. Oil spills from large factories are rare catastrophes. When one occurs, the corporation at fault has to pay large damages. It faces suits, social condemnation, angry editorials. Farmers spill millions of times more chemicals causing far more damage than all the oil companies put together, but they pay no fines and face no social disapproval. Obviously that is because they have no choice. This is similar to the fact that automobiles spill more oil than all industrial accidents combined. Autos spill a little bit at a time. Nothing can be done about it, so there are no angry editorials. Even though engine seals are as good as we can make them, the oil seeps out. It coats the highways and gets washed into the sewers, and out into the rivers and bays . . . along with the topsoil and agricultural chemicals washed from farms. One of the reasons hydroponic factory farms are doing well in Japan is because consumers like the "all natural" pesticide-free vegetables from them. It is ironic, but by making agriculture a controlled indoor industrial process, we can actually reduce the use of chemicals and vastly reduce damage to the environment, and "get back to nature." People who want to try getting back to nature the other way should pay a visit to China and spend an afternoon dishing out "nightsoil" (sewage) from cesspools. That experience will convert 99.999% of "back to nature" advocates into hard-core lovers of high technology. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 00:38:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA18479; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:35:15 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CF chain reactions Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 07:35:02 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <334dd90c.26499798 mail.netspace.net.au> References: <1.5.4.32.19970408091538.008ef8c4 freeway.net> In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970408091538.008ef8c4 freeway.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YQvg7.0.fW4.nKVIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 08 Apr 1997 05:15:38 -0400, Edwin Strojny wrote: [snip] >>I suppose it is still possible that only portions of the batch were bad, >but it >>seems very unlikely that any cell would get all bad beads while others got >>mostly good beads. >> >>-- Bob Horst >> >I agree that it is unlikely that 5% of the cells would get only bad beads. Don't forget that a determination of works <-> doesn't work, is based on the sensitivity of the measuring equipment. I.e. a cell with 1 good bead may just not produce enough heat to be detected. Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://netspace.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 02:26:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA23458; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3349F574.1E0D math.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 00:36:20 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Vortex appropriate?---was: Can't eat oil References: <970407220414_72240.1256_EHB60-2 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oYi4g3.0.xi5.LnWIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > I pointed out that I cannot "prove" the economic viability > of food synthesis Nor should you, at least here. I find it amusing that right after we have a big burst of posts requesting that the vortex posting be more focused, we are right away again seeing a flood of posts on philosophical tangents, such as synthesizing food, the acting in The Saint, the importance of competition in the marketplace, and the imagined status of the hot fusion program (brought to you courtesy of the cold fusion advocates, so you know you can trust it :-) Maybe Russ George is right---if this forum cant stay marginally focused on cold fusion and related anomolous energy production without wandering deep into philosophical and science fiction debates, perhaps it is time for YAL (Yet Another List), this time truly devoted to experimental investigation of anomolous energy production related to CF, cavitation and ZPE. Is anybody listening? Perhaps those of us who have actually done an experiment or critically analyzed a CF paper should boycott vortex. ( 1/2 :-) ) -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 04:32:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA01141; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 04:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 04:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:29:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Progress Report. Serious email, no pol. bull. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"fMegS2.0.kH.0mYIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Constant Entropy Systems Group Vortexians, With my semi-political ramblings you are probably justified in wanting a progress report - if not to satisfy my conceit (!). This is a long but work related email and is worthy of viewing if you want to see what I get up to apart from rangling. Could I suggest an acronym for work going under the guise of Constant Entropy Systems or Heat Pumps etc. - Over Entropy (OE, ha ha!) Heat Reuse (HR)? I won't make IE#12 but IE#13 with my paper on constant entropy systems. I will discuss with Eugene wether I can release a pre-print version on Web but I think this will cause copyright problems - unless Eugene is not hung up on this. My first paper and the practical one I can also release on Web. Here goes: . On the simple premise of temperature rise on phase change I devise a phase change catalyst. . This is modelled in paper 1 circulated to a few people in the v.group. . A realistic device is presented in a practical paper once again circulated. . Paper 2 (IE#13) aims to complete the theory and show that the constant entropy premise is possible:- . Heat and Work indestinguishable at constant temp. Maths now worked out, I always prefer the intuitive model though - both shown. This is a powerful theorem and really euclidates the approach. . First Order Phase changes viewed as a constant temp. heat to work process - the work is reflected in the latent heat of the vapour. . Spontaneous phase changes discussed with modelling of hygroscopic processes. Phase change catalyst recalled (fully modelled in paper 1) and is able to work because of two constant temp. processes supplying latent heat and potential energy of vapour at height. Confused? All will be explained in print or on Web. . A oneway thermodynamic phase changing cycle is presented. . A statistical mechanics view of first order phase changes, A real Maxwell Demon. Information theory brought in to show why this phase change demon is possible. Appeals to Engineering common sense - no complicated maths. (It can be done, but just what is the point? Vortex is a bombast free zone). . One other constant temperature heat to work process is discussed - electrical noise and the bambozling blunder of analysis by Nyquist, Bridgeman and Brillouin is shown to be reducible to a simple principle of why electrical noise cannot generate usable power. Simple principle of how a heat to work device must operate stated. . Limitations to the Second Law. If you can accept the presentation, a system spontaneously decreasing in entropy is presented. . A correct interpretation of entropy as merely showing waste heat from dissapative potentials: chemical and temperature gradient, it is nothing more. . A new theory for time's arrow is presented which encapsulates the second 'law'. Simply potential decrease - no fancy maths just common sense. . Potential decrease idea further euclidated with chaotic dynamics, 2 body collision, 3 body problem, loss of information even at dynamic eqm. Work concurs with lots of highly mathematical treatises developed by Sinai, Kolmogorov, Arnold, Moser but in a common sense engineering viewpoint. Viewpoint is that nothing is wrong with basic equations of motion, Newtonian, Quantum, being time invariant. Simple situations lead to simple time invariant results. Model 2 bodies colliding (certainly 3 bodies orbiting) and you get time's arrow in chaotic dynamics - information is lost about trajectories - a clear direction to time even at dynamic eqm. which the second law says nothing about. . My potential decrease idea is applied to show how time's arrow is manifest even in a constant entropy system. Memory (why we remember the past) and the teacup paradox is discussed. The teacup paradox explains why even though I believe heat energy can be re-used, that the cup is not simply unsmashing itself - this would violate potential decrease principle. Now as far as I'm concerned, the theory is complete. I have no wish to dress it up in academic whistles and bells, I've tried that in mainstream journals - the cretins don't even understand their own maths. No, its engineering common-sense all the way now. Which brings me to my future objectives: The practical device I've modelled I believe is very cheap to do - just needs knowhow - which practical paper points a long way to developing. Over next months, I shall concentrate on PRACTICAL side and do experiments. ********************************************************************** All I have to do to prove the theory is build the device and show the free-water-volume effect. ********************************************************************** This is the wizz bang experiment which will appeal to the adolescent pop science brigade as I think Ed Wall put it in his email for upfront o/u, infinite energy devices. I have extensive information gathering facilities: Institute of Chemical Engineers (Picadilly, London) Library, Science Reference Library London, University Libraries. Enough budget to do my own experiments even if it means use the kitchen! Enough connections to get lab facilities, expert help in the London academic area. All Vortexers, Wishing you well in your endeavours, Remi. P.S. This film, The Saint, it wouldn't be any good unless the leading lady got her kit off :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 06:15:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA20009; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 06:04:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 06:04:47 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704080759.ZM7565 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:59:28 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" "Re: Can't eat oil" (Apr 7, 9:09pm) References: <19970408021328.AAA1701 LOCALNAME> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Can't eat oil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"IM3Vd1.0.Zu4.k9aIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 7, 9:09pm, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > Don't know about John's flatulence "problem" though. :-) Didn't say I was a major METHANE producer, just a CO2 producer like everyone else who draws a breath! Anyway, all those beans is asking for trouble. Don't you know livestock flatulance is the largest contributor of greenhouse gasses today? Would hate to think I could become a greater threat to the environment than my car! -john -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 06:15:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA18861; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:57:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:57:42 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704080752.ZM7536 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:52:24 -0500 In-Reply-To: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) "Re: Can't eat oil" (Apr 7, 8:38pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Can't eat oil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"B0x021.0.dc4.53aIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 7, 8:38pm, Horace Heffner wrote: > Maybe a more logical question is: can we synthesize food for our food? It > is true we can synthsize some furtilizers. How about food for algae which > is eaten by cows, chickens, etc.? Seems like a much easier problem. To some degree we are already doing it with genetically manipulated feedstock grains and livestock. Worked for an agricultural genetics corportation a few years back. That pig cloning stuff is old news by every bit of 8 years now, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Some of the stuff used to wake me up in the middle of the night with the chills and an extream desire to turn some lights on. Sorry to say, but there is very little "natural" food left in our modern society food chain anymore. -john -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 07:25:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA30247; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:23:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:23:38 -0700 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.251.148 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:23:26 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Over Entropy/ Heat Reuse Resent-Message-ID: <"2k_e_1.0.TO7.fJbIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have a few comments on Remi Cornwall's work. > . First Order Phase changes viewed as a constant temp. heat to work > process - the work is reflected in the latent heat of the vapour. > > . Spontaneous phase changes discussed with modelling of hygroscopic > processes. Phase change catalyst recalled (fully modelled in paper 1) > and is able to work because of two constant temp. processes supplying > latent heat and potential energy of vapour at height. Confused? All > will be explained in print or on Web. The fact that phase changes obey the second law of thermodynamics is well established. There are a number of thermodynamic equations that are derived from requiring that the second law holds for phase changes. The most useful of these equations is the Clausius-Clapeyron equation which relates vapor pressure, temperature, and latent heat. If this equation holds then the second law will be satisfied. Experimental measurements show that this is always the case. These three quantities (vapor pressure, temperature, and latent heat) are easy to measure so just take your phase change, measure the quantities, and check with the Clausius-Clapeyron equation. If the equation is violated you have something but if is works then you lose. > . Potential decrease idea further euclidated with chaotic dynamics, 2 > body collision, 3 body problem, loss of information even at dynamic > eqm. Work concurs with lots of highly mathematical treatises > developed by Sinai, Kolmogorov, Arnold, Moser but in a common sense > engineering viewpoint. For 2 body collisions you are probably wasting your time. In that case Boltzmann's H theorem works fine and the H theorem requires positive entropy production at every point in time. You might look at three body collisions. For that case there is no known proof of the H theorem. A relevant web site to look at is: http://www.overunity.de/theory.htm the first article: "Incompatibility of Planck's Version of Second Law Regarding mixtures in fields" is the one of interest. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 07:31:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA14813; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:25:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704081425.JAA26718 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Vortex appropriate?---was: Can't eat oil Resent-Message-ID: <"IvJIF.0.Kd3.WLbIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 00:36 4/8/97 -0700, Barry wrote: >Maybe Russ George is right---if this forum cant stay marginally >focused on cold fusion and related anomolous energy production... I was keeping quiet hoping it would die down by itself but Barry's right!...it's only gotten worse! So here's my request to the Vortex group. Please understand that I am serious about this...it's well past April 1st, OK? Please stop discussing the following topics on Vortex: world energy situation synthesis of oil and food patents theories looking for a phenomena to explain religion movies research funding competition imagined side effects of cold fusion etc. Please continue discussing: data from actual experiments proposed experiments If my request is honored by all members of Vortex, I expect to have about 30 minutes more each day to devote to performing the experiments now underway here at EarthTech (which I will report on here in due course). Further, I expect to gain valuable insights into these experiments by reading consise, pertinent, undiluted comments on Vortex. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 07:48:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA16463; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: 08 Apr 97 10:42:47 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Vortex appropriate?---was: Can't eat oil Message-ID: <970408144247_72240.1256_EHB46-3 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"iPzNR3.0.714.vdbIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I wrote that I cannot prove the economic viability of food synthesis. Barry Merriman writes: Nor should you, at least here. Why not? What harm? If I feel like it, I will. I find it amusing that right after we have a big burst of posts requesting that the vortex posting be more focused . . . With all due respect, I disagreed with that big burst. A narrow technical discussion of o-u energy devices is okay, but I think that introducing other subjects is better. Researchers should think about: * Why progress is so slow (if it *is* slow). * Why the field is dominated by politics and emotion. * What history can teach us about similar developments. * What the energy might be used for, and how it might affect society. I think it is a grave mistake for scientists and engineers to work blindly without considering possible good or evil outcomes of their research. . . . we are right away again seeing a flood of posts on philosophical tangents, such as synthesizing food, the acting in The Saint, the importance of competition in the marketplace, and the imagined status of the hot fusion program . . . All important subjects. The charter and traditions of this forum encourage such discussions. It takes only a moment for you to skip the messages, so why should you complain? The titles make it clear that we are not talking about technical o-u issues. Maybe Russ George is right---if this forum cant stay marginally focused on cold fusion and related anomalous energy production without wandering deep into philosophical and science fiction debates, perhaps it is time for YAL (Yet Another List) . . . If that is how you feel, I encourage you to join Russ in establishing another list. You can have your cake and eat it too. That's the beauty of e-mail forums. You can establish as many as you like, and they can be as broadly or narrowly focused as you want. There is no harm in having many different forums devoted to o-u energy. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 07:54:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA15757; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:38:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704080930.ZM8004 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:30:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> "Can't eat oil" (Apr 8, 1:34am) References: <970407220414_72240.1256_EHB60-2 CompuServe.COM> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Can't eat oil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"galTC2.0.5s3.6XbIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 8, 1:34am, Jed Rothwell wrote: > That is not effective debate, and I do not think it is appropriate to this > forum. I made a number of specific, carefully framed responses to Steck's > points: > If Steck does not wish to address the technical points, that's fine. But he > does not fool anyone or win any brownie points by posting insulting nonsense > about "rational thought" and "directionless passion." I think that I have made > a good case here in favor of research into food synthesis. I believe my > arguments are grounded on the known laws of nature, and on history. Steck's > response adds nothing to the debate. It is an admission that he cannot think > of any rigorous counter-arguments, so he must resort to gratuitous insults > instead. Jed- First off, that's Mr. Steck or John or John Steck if you please. Next, let's not get into the finer points of effective debating because it requires discussions with facts in hand, not fiction. As per addressing the technical points, there are none by your own admission. The only gratuitous insult given here is to the group with your pretending to have a backable point. Fencing words does not an argument make when my foil is just as sharp. You maintain synthetic food is less expensive to make that growing it and I say prove it. You say sewage and crude oil are viable foodstock I say prove it. You say the world hunger problem can be solved with CF and I say prove it. You say your arguments are grounded on the known laws of nature and on history and I say prove it. With all due respect, it is not my job to do the work for you. They are YOUR positions, not mine. Crying foul does not convince me either. Back up your statements with some first hand personal experience, case study numbers, realistic devices or systems, or an economic prospectus, or drop it. It's that simple. Benifit of doubt only goes so far. If you feel it neccessary to do the usual nit-pick of every other sentence above feel free to send it off-list to johnste ecg.csg.mot.com. I'm sure we've wasted enough of everyone's time with this factless exercise in semantics. -john -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 07:55:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA17360; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:52:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Over Entropy/ Heat Reuse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"uW1Z63.0.4F4.lkbIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lawrence, Thanks for your excellent response. Yes know about Clapreyon equation etc. Yes 1st order phase changes don't violate laws 1 and 2 - this is my way of whetting peoples appetite. I construct a cycle in a closed system with the phase changing catalyst and laws are obeyed again. If you want some more information about the device, I can post a practical paper with a feasability study to you. It's all simple thermodynamics which makes me wonder all the more why it wouldn't work. If you can accept the device's workings (though the ultimate arbitarer is experiment) you must end up questioning the second law. I believe its only an energy dissapation theory: high grade to low grade. Its part of a greater truth which does explain time's arrow. If this puts you off, I can't help, one cannot begin a discussion if reasonable arguments are dismissed straight away. What anyone thinks of my work and the challenge to the second law doesn't bother me now, I'm going ahead to do experiments anyway - I'm a reasonably seasoned Scientist and Engineer and know how to spot a good starting point for research no matter what. Wishing you well, Remi. P.S. Boltzman's H theorem etc. all relevant. I can't really contribute to the rigorous analysis camp at this stage - my best area of endeavour is conceptual models and practical results. I'm quite satisfied with the theory I've developed. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 07:57:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA03180; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:54:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:54:54 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:54:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: 'over' entropy Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"v1mm33.0.bn.zmbIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortex, over was meant in the sense of surmounting the problem, not numerically. It is better called 'under entropy' i.e. generating less entropy than would otherwise be thought necessary to complete a task. I.e. fuel cells, biological processes are u/e compared to a Carnot Cycle. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 07:58:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA16339; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970408144258.006a2614 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 10:42:58 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Vortex appropriate?---was: Can't eat oil Resent-Message-ID: <"AfN9o3.0.D_3.AdbIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yet another vote: At 09:25 AM 4/8/97 -0500, Scott Little wrote: > >Maybe Russ George is right---if this forum cant stay marginally >>focused on cold fusion and related anomolous energy production... > >I was keeping quiet hoping it would die down by itself but Barry's >right!...it's only gotten worse! > >So here's my request to the Vortex group. Please understand that I am >serious about this...it's well past April 1st, OK? > >Please stop discussing the following topics on Vortex: > >world energy situation relevant if directly related to cf or other o/u device >synthesis of oil and food >patents relevant if directly related to cf or other o/u device >theories looking for a phenomena to explain >religion >movies relevant if on cold fusion or other o/u device >research funding relevant if directly related to cf or other o/u device >competition relevant if about cf or other o/u device >imagined side effects of cold fusion relevant if supported by data. wish the other forms of o/u or purported o/u could also be supported with such data >etc. > >Please continue discussing: > >data from actual experiments >proposed experiments > always a winner Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 07:58:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA01355; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:44:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:44:58 -0700 Date: 08 Apr 97 10:42:35 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Bad bead batches Message-ID: <970408144234_72240.1256_EHB46-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"wmfdv.0.4L.fdbIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Regarding CETI beads, Bob Horst wrote: I suppose it is still possible that only portions of the batch were bad, but it seems very unlikely that any cell would get all bad beads while others got mostly good beads. I don't quite follow the logic of that sentence, but anyway, here is how it works: 1. Some production batches work well; that is, a large percent of the beads in the batch produce heat. 2. Many production batches fail completely. None of the beads work. At least, no milliliter sample of beads produces enough heat to be detected with ordinary calorimetry. 3. The batches are not mixed. Therefore it is quite likely that any given cell will get all bad beads. That is the usual outcome. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 08:25:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA19677; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:07:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Abuse of vortex Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"TmYCe2.0.Np4.D4cIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortex, Being a comparative newcomer, I'm not often aware of the scope and rules of this group. Yep, go away and read the subscription text - but nobody reads the manual - much. I do however stand corrected in this and all matters... . Yes, keep it relevant to energy production. . Moral implications of our technologies, future guessing relevant. . Science in general. . Political, finanicial matters we experience in our research are relevant. . Wit. Jokes. Lets not be boring. Its a scientific fact that a good demeanour leads to creative thinking. Try Edward de Bono 'Lateral thinking' That kind of priority? Threads burst on the scene, people get angry, they private email, then it receeds with parties either having made up their mind to do something or just were happy to have a coffee table chat. Someone called this group a think-tank. It's good because it is diverse and not insular. All we need is a little self discipline. ................................................................. I suggest message headers are well written!!! Filter that way. ................................................................. Don't spoil the fun by regulation, We're mainly adults, Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 08:31:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA06409; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:15:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:15:31 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:14:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Over Entropy/ Heat Reuse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"b4dMO2.0.3a1.I4cIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wow Larry!, 'the Second Law is chased back to the principle of least action'. I'm not alone. Shall print off the paper, if I'm evading copyright let me know. (print first then ask questions, I know. but could you excuse a little eagerness?) Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 08:36:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA21170; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <334A654D.3E7B loc1.tandem.com> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 07:33:37 -0800 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bad bead batches References: <970408144234_72240.1256_EHB46-2 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Gy7Op.0.bA5._GcIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > To: Vortex > > Regarding CETI beads, Bob Horst wrote: > > I suppose it is still possible that only portions of the batch were bad, > but it seems very unlikely that any cell would get all bad beads while > others got mostly good beads. > > I don't quite follow the logic of that sentence, but anyway, here is how it > works: > > 1. Some production batches work well; that is, a large percent of the beads > in the batch produce heat. > > 2. Many production batches fail completely. None of the beads work. At > least, no milliliter sample of beads produces enough heat to be detected > with ordinary calorimetry. > > 3. The batches are not mixed. > > Therefore it is quite likely that any given cell will get all bad beads. That > is the usual outcome. > > - Jed Jed -- My understanding was that one batch makes enough beads to build many cells, and that some of those cells work, while others do not work. You seem to be implying that a batch is either good or bad, and all the cells made from that batch are the same (they all work or they all fail). Maybe the next time you or another Vort is in contact with CETI, they could clarify which of the two interpretations is correct. -- Bob From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 08:50:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA11696; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:47:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:47:10 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704081040.ZM8465 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:40:37 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Griggs Pump Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"MoUYt1.0.gs2.zXcIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Any word on the Griggs pump? Last I heard there were some test units expected to analyse if they were in fact o/u. This was a couple of months ago and haven't heard anything since. What is the status if any? Also, anyone on this list trying to replicate the device on their own? -john -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 09:13:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA15173; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:11:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:11:31 -0700 Date: 08 Apr 97 12:09:12 EDT From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Griggs Pump Message-ID: <970408160912_76570.2270_FHU42-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"dSWS_.0._i3.oucIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Griggs pump will be arriving here this month, I hope, after long delays at both ends. We have major site rewiring to do/purchase. Also, we needed to have the 75 HP motor equipped with a slow-start control so as not to trip breakers on the outside transformer. This testing will involve hot water production, not steam. The good news is that Concord Electric has given us approval to *try* this test load. Also, I have heard that Mike Huffman is being funded by a group that has him on "deep secrecy" agreement. I do not know whether he has positive results following his reports in IE#1. Gene Mallove Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 INTERNET:76570.2270 compuserve.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 09:19:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA26784; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:07:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Abuse of vortex Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:06:53 +0000 Message-ID: <19970408160651.AAA5078 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"bTlVZ1.0.QY6.IrcIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:07 PM 4/8/97 +0000, Remi wrote: >Vortex, > >Being a comparative newcomer, I'm not often aware of the scope and rules >of this group. Yep, go away and read the subscription text - but nobody >reads the manual - much. I do however stand corrected in this and all >matters... > THE WIZARD OF OZ-TIN HAS SPOKEN. BE-WHERE? :-) >. Yes, keep it relevant to energy production. > >. Moral implications of our technologies, future guessing relevant. > >. Science in general. > >. Political, finanicial matters we experience in our research are relevant. > >. Wit. Jokes. Lets not be boring. Its a scientific fact that a good > demeanour leads to creative thinking. Try Edward de Bono 'Lateral thinking' > >That kind of priority? > >Threads burst on the scene, people get angry, they private email, then it >receeds with parties either having made up their mind to do something or >just were happy to have a coffee table chat. > >Someone called this group a think-tank. It's good because it is diverse >and not insular. All we need is a little self discipline. > >................................................................. >I suggest message headers are well written!!! >Filter that way. >................................................................. > >Don't spoil the fun by regulation, >We're mainly adults, >Remi. > > Courage, A Heart, and a Brain, Too! :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 09:38:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA19425; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:34:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:34:16 -0700 Date: 08 Apr 97 12:32:06 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Bad bead batches Message-ID: <970408163205_72240.1256_EHB71-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Ud7ov3.0.Hl4.7EdIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Bob Horst asks: My understanding was that one batch makes enough beads to build many cells, and that some of those cells work, while others do not work. With a good batch the cells all work. Unless you screw one up by accident. There are lots of ways to do the experiment wrong. You seem to be implying that a batch is either good or bad, and all the cells made from that batch are the same (they all work or they all fail). Not quite. With a bad batch, no cell produces any detectible levels of heat. The beads usually self-destruct. They split open like rotten fruit; it is readily apparent. With a good batch, a certain percent of the beads work. Enough to make any cell get hot. Of course there are also marginal batches that produce only iffy results. And there are other issues, like how long a good batch will work. The large cell they showed at PowerGen only worked for a month or so after that, for reasons I have discussed here. Lately they have made kilowatt cells with improved materials that have run much longer. A good batch is not all good. Not every bead goes off, and not every spot on a given bead gets hot. If they all worked I guess the thing would get incandescent! You see wrecked beads even in a good cell. When you handle a batch of beads they inevitably get mixed up, so you end up with a nice statistical mix, with the same number of good ones in every milliliter cell. By the way, when I wrote: "3. The batches are not mixed," I meant they do not pour the beads together from different batches and stir 'em up. That would defeat the purpose of the research, which is to find out how to manufacture better & better batches. Maybe the next time you or another Vort is in contact with CETI, they could clarify which of the two interpretations is correct. They have clarified this on many occasions. At ILENR and ICCF6 Reding and Patterson discussed batch-to-batch replicabililty problems during the formal sessions. I asked them more about it in private discussions later. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 09:39:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA20637; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:36:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:36:34 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:36:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704081636.LAA08965 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Vortex appropriate?---was: Can't eat oil Resent-Message-ID: <"R9HDb1.0.D25.EGdIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:42 4/8/97 -0400, Mitchell wrote that all of the subjects I wish to see disappear from Vortex are relevant to our field of endeavor. You are correct, Mitchell, but... Those subjects are not relevant to figuring out HOW to make the CF phenomena happen reproducibly...or HOW to design and build a zero-point energy transducer...etc. By discussing all these relevant issues, we're essentially putting the cart before the horse. Instead, I'd like to focus on the primary goal of establishing a solid experimental basis for CF and/or o-u devices. After we have achieved that goal, I would welcome discussion on all relevant issues. Scott Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 10:06:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA27291; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:03:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:03:08 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Vortex appropriate?---was: Can't eat oil Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:02:26 +0000 Message-ID: <19970408170224.AAA2419 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"qcF001.0.Jg6.BfdIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 04:36 PM 4/8/97 +0000, Scott wrote: >At 10:42 4/8/97 -0400, Mitchell wrote that all of the subjects I wish to see >disappear from Vortex are relevant to our field of endeavor. > >You are correct, Mitchell, but... > >Those subjects are not relevant to figuring out HOW to make the CF phenomena >happen reproducibly...or HOW to design and build a zero-point energy >transducer...etc. If I'm going to build a Hypervious-Mercaphoid (TM registered)I damn well better have some theory or mental image of it and it's workings! The open free-wheeling discussions on this list do that through thought exchange.One person one idea, two persons......? Hell, I can hire a minimum wage technician to "build" it and record data. Take Jed's advice get a faster modem, and take the time to read between the lines. I find that my brain is a helluva lot smarter than I am. > >By discussing all these relevant issues, we're essentially putting the cart >before the horse. Instead, I'd like to focus on the primary goal of >establishing a solid experimental basis for CF and/or o-u devices. After we >have achieved that goal, I would welcome discussion on all relevant issues. > >Scott > > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 10:56:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA03564; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:52:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:52:49 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970408175129.0069cd60 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 13:51:29 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Vortex appropriate?---was: Can't eat oil Resent-Message-ID: <"3uaOK1.0.ct.mNeIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:36 AM 4/8/97 -0500, Scott incorrectly wrote: >At 10:42 4/8/97 -0400, "Mitchell wrote that all of the subjects I wish to see >disappear from Vortex are relevant to our field of endeavor." Scott is wrong. Precise as usual, but inaccurate. "All", Scott says. He is wrong numerically, he is wrong by description, and he is wrong logically. Fact: There were 9 subjects, and Scott added 1. That made 10. Of the 10, I agreed with Scott on 4, and recommended restricting the rest to the field. Here is the post: >world energy situation "relevant if directly related to cf or other o/u device >synthesis of oil and food >patents relevant if directly related to cf or other o/u device >movies relevant if on cold fusion or other o/u device >research funding relevant if directly related to cf or other o/u device >competition relevant if about cf or other o/u device >imagined side effects of cold fusion relevant if supported by data. wish the other forms of o/u or purported o/u could also be supported with such data >data from actual experiments >proposed experiments" always a winner" [Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) Message-Id: <"AfN9o3.0.D_3.AdbIp" mx2>] So I said I agreed on 4/9, and recommended restriction on 6 to CF or other o/u device. Even given that, Scott, myopic, incorrectly said: "Mitchell wrote that all of the subjects I wish to see disappear from Vortex are relevant to our field of endeavor." Given this gross and salient inaccuracy, Scott continued: >Those subjects are not relevant to figuring out HOW to make the CF phenomena >happen reproducibly...or HOW to design and build a zero-point energy >transducer...etc. Since Scott has not made a single CF phenomenon work, (and please immediately correct me if I am wrong) he seems hardly an authority on any aspect of what it takes to make CF reproducible. Jed, Russ, Martin, Stan, and others have some say in what is, but not Scott. Furthermore, I am disappointed at the continued inaccuracy here, and would take off-topic posts to such silliness any day. CF is reproducible, and if Scott might actually check the literature out for a change, he would see this is true. He might also improve the accuracy of his own comments, measurements and observations. BTW, IMHO, remote viewing the literature probably won't help, given that it historically did not prevent Earthtech from attempting CF on a US 5 cent piece which is not even composed of nickel but mainly copper. Frankly, since Scott brings it up, I do not believe in any ZPE system beyond the quantum mechanical zero point energy, and none of you have furnished here an equation (except to invoke the entire universe and beyond hidden in every cm3 because you say it is) or theorem or expt to back it up. The day the any other purported o/u system, or even hot fusion, matches what cold fusion has produced in terms of data, reproducibility, and calibrations, will be a good one. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 12:01:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA19152; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <334A91EE.5375 skylink.net> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 11:43:58 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: A Travelling Field? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"czmcH.0.Ah4.vGfIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, I hope this is an acceptable topic. Maybe we have a good understanding of EM, we could have better luck in getting something from ZPE, or in controlling of gravitation. Can someone with a copy of Feynman's lectures, please provide an opinion about this: Feynman uses a relatively simple problem to introduce students to the concept of a travelling EM wave. (Feynman's Lectures Volume II Section 18-4, "A Travelling Field") The example is a sheet of charge, which is suddenly accelerated to a constant velocity, to result in a sheet of current. This example problem may have deeper implications relating to the the part of the EM field which travels (separates from its sources), and the EM field which stays connected with its sources. Feynman treats it all as one field, and in essence tries to show that retardation in the local field is same effect as the travelling field. He "knew" this is true. Yet, I think he was unsuccessful in demonstrating it. Maybe because it is not true? There are some peculiar things about Feynman's solution. One thing is that a sentence in the text describes a slightly different problem than the problem which is shown in the graphics and the mathematics. I have the feeling that he realized something is not quite right, but continued on with it because he was looking for an introductory example to demonstrate retardation along with the travelling wave. I'm still looking for an example. Anyone have one? Anyhow -- in his solution he shows a constant E field propagating along with a constant H field. A neat example of a travelling EM wave. Except where does the E field come from? If it comes from the sheet of charge -- it must already be out there (not propagating). And if it is not already out there (as it wouldn't be if were masked by another opposite sheet of non-moving charge, as mentioned in the the text but not shown in the graphic), it would not ever be out there. I think the correct solution should show an impulse of E field, which exists only at the front edge of the travelling wave, and which is caused by the impulse acceleration of the sheet of charge. But, the travelling wave described by an impulse of E field would result would be an unworkable solution in the second part of Feynman's example, where he wants to show a pulse of travelling (local) H field which continues to flow away when the current is stopped. A more fundamental difficulty with this example problem might be that an infinite sheet of charge, instantly accelerated, is not physically realizable. There are some strong philosophical arguments, and some experimental indications that the local/connected EM fields (radial/longitudinal EM forces) are not retarded in the same way as the transverse EM wave. Any opinions about action-at-a-distance in local EM forces? Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 12:07:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA16669; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:04:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:04:24 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:08:35 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Bad bead batches Resent-Message-ID: <"0jKMb.0.K44.sQfIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To: Vortex > >Regarding CETI beads, Bob Horst wrote: > > I suppose it is still possible that only portions of the batch were bad, > but it seems very unlikely that any cell would get all bad beads while > others got mostly good beads. > >I don't quite follow the logic of that sentence, but anyway, here is how it >works: > >1. Some production batches work well; that is, a large percent of the beads > in the batch produce heat. > >2. Many production batches fail completely. None of the beads work. At > least, no milliliter sample of beads produces enough heat to be detected > with ordinary calorimetry. > >3. The batches are not mixed. > >Therefore it is quite likely that any given cell will get all bad beads. That >is the usual outcome. > >- Jed This has clear implications, especially for experiment replication work. (1) Many batches should be prepared and samples from each batch tested. (2) Then all batches showing positive results should be mixed and then 12 experiment size samples from the mixed batch of beads distributed to each researcher doing the experiment replications. (3) Experimenters should make at least 12 runs using 12 samples. With this procedure, the probablility of a completely null replication should be astronomically low. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 12:11:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA20602; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:08:38 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: New list, some practical thoughts Resent-Message-ID: <"7xh2s2.0.q15.MRfIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Some practical considerations regarding formation of a new list, and food for thougt not from oil: (1) Russ George ws proposing a private exclusive list, with no public archive and no discussion of list contents outside the list. (2) Russ may have already decided doing his list is impractical - but he can speak to that if he is still subscribed. (3) Bill Beaty has been the most flexible, positively contributing, and hands off moderator you could ask for. If it ain't broke don't fix it. (4) Vortex could be split into two lists, one about discussion of planned or actucal experiments, the other the balance fo discussions. (5) If vortex were to be split, each of us, even purists like Scott, should ask himself if he would subscribe to the "political" list as well as the "experimental" list. If almost everyone would subscribe to both lists, it is a simply a wheel spinning exercise. (6) I think vortex is already split into two lists, vortcore and vortex-l. I think I am still subscribed to vortcore, but am not sure, but haven't seen any traffic there. Or maybe whatever is posted there goes to the vortex list automaticaly? I just don't recall. Anyway, I think experimental stuff was already supposed to go to vortcore and the lighter material to vortex, this in deference to vortesans, especially in Europe, who pay by the character or by the minute. (7) There is also another energy related list that is completely freewheeling (freenrg). All manner of things seem to be discussed there, but discussion seems to be feast or famine. If discussion gets bloated on a topic not of personal interest you can always de-subscribe. However, the difficulty is not knowing what you are missing, and not knowing when it is good to re-subscibe. (8) With three lists already it doesn't seem wortwhile to create a forth list. Maybe we are simply not using what we already have effectively. (9) Cross posting of discussions (cc to multiple lists) is already banned, but posting of info regarding opening of new major subject lines is already encouraged. This info may be sufficient to determine if a temporary subscription is desirable. (10) There is always an archive available for those who miss something. It would be nice to have an archive summary or some means of pulling out selective portions of the archive though. Maybe Bill Beaty would consider the possibility of permitting the archives to be available to a news service or some service that allows browsing, search, and thread based access via www. (11) Though not specifically experimental, there are other kinds of research of which may be of interest and which is serious and professional, especially sociological research like Bart Simon's (though he may be unique.) Personaly I'd like to hear more from Bart, but maybe he doesn't want to disrupt his observations. 8^) (12) Discussions of going after government funding to assist CF research, singly and as a community, seem timely, appropriate, and feasible in outcome. (13) Discussions of motivation and ratioanle for CF research, and motivational peer support, seem extremely appropriate. If for no other reason, you aren't going to get it anywhere else. Some of us, like me, are spending every available spare moment and dollar they have doing research. Rewards and results are few. The effort is Quixotic. It's good to think about why we do it, now and then. (14) Hopefully any decision to split or otherwise censure would be democratic. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 12:29:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA20140; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:25:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:25:45 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:29:54 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Bad bead batches Resent-Message-ID: <"D12db2.0.Yw4.tkfIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:32 PM 4/8/97, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] > >By the way, when I wrote: "3. The batches are not mixed," I meant they do not >pour the beads together from different batches and stir 'em up. That would >defeat the purpose of the research, which is to find out how to manufacture >better & better batches. [snip] >- Jed Sooner or later the purpose should be confirmation, replication. Personally, I think it's already later. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 12:42:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA22217; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:39:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:39:15 -0700 Date: 08 Apr 97 15:37:58 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Can't eat oil, Steck Message-ID: <970408193757_72240.1256_EHB118-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"L8lFm2.0.3R5.XxfIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex John Steck writes: First off, that's Mr. Steck or John or John Steck if you please. Sorry, Steck, but this is academese and my primary education was largely British, so I use surnames. Nothing personal. In fact, it's impersonal! You say sewage and crude oil are viable foodstock I say prove it. Sewage is the oldest and most commonly used fertilizer on earth. That is: human waste, manure or guano, sources of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. They are still working on direct synthesis from oil. You say the world hunger problem can be solved with CF and I say prove it. Not solved, ameliorated. But only if people have the political will to implement the solutions. I believe I have proved that. You appear to be the only person here who disagrees. You have not given any specific technical reasons to support your point of view, and you have not challenged any of my assertions specifically, so I cannot respond. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 13:27:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA27041; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:12:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199704082012.NAA16751 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: New list, some practical thoughts Resent-Message-ID: <"WM4OY3.0.Rc6.0RgIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am currently deleting almost all of the vortex email that comes in. There is just too much to keep up on, and I have no interest in the politics, only the experiments and technical discussions. >(1) Russ George ws proposing a private exclusive list, with no public >archive and no discussion of list contents outside the list. I would be interested in such a list if politics is banned. >(4) Vortex could be split into two lists, one about discussion of planned >or actucal experiments, the other the balance fo discussions. > >(5) If vortex were to be split, each of us, even purists like Scott, should >ask himself if he would subscribe to the "political" list as well as the >"experimental" list. If almost everyone would subscribe to both lists, it >is a simply a wheel spinning exercise. Personally, this sounds great to me. I would subscribe to only the experimental list. So, if it takes forming two lists to get the politics voiced, but out of the way of research, then so be it. As far as I would be concerned, this would not be "wheel spinning". I have no interest whatever in the politics and the plethora of political bantor is keeping me from reading a lot of good technical postings because I simply delete all of the vortex articles on a regular basis, trying to keep an eye to posts that are clearly meaningful and technically oriented. >(8) With three lists already it doesn't seem wortwhile to create a forth >list. Maybe we are simply not using what we already have effectively. If subscribers could be required (via internal self sensoring) to post political discussion on that list only, then this list would have none of the patent waving threats and other bantor we have endured over the past months. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 13:32:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA28616; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:24:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:24:59 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:24:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704082024.PAA00816 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Vortex appropriate?---was: Can't eat oil Resent-Message-ID: <"b-JQj2.0.--6.QcgIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 13:51 4/8/97 -0400, Mitchell wrote: > Scott is wrong. Hey Mitchell, we're on the same side! I'm trying to reduce the amount of overhead in this discussion group and you're increasing it with useless nit-picking. > Since Scott has not made a single CF phenomenon work... We're working hard to correct that situation. We have tried a number of experiments in the past and we have not given up. We now have the CETI Rifex kit going, and a Ragland triode replication (OK, Jed..."approximation") is running in the dual-method calorimeter right now. >CF is reproducible, and if Scott might actually check the literature >out for a change, he would see this is true. He might also improve the >accuracy of his own comments, measurements and observations. The accuracy of my own measurements is quite sufficient to observe the reported effects. As you can see from the description of our dual-method calorimeter, we can reliably see as little as 0.1 watts of excess heat from an experiment running in the 0-1 watt total input range. Above that level, we typically obtain 2-5% relative accuracy up to the capacity of this calorimeter which is around 15-20 watts. We would be delighted to run one of your cells in this calorimeter, Mitchell, and publish a detailed report of our findings for all to see. > Hope that helps. For some reason, I doubt the sincerity of this last statement. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 13:34:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA27417; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:16:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:16:16 -0700 Date: 08 Apr 97 16:14:04 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Bad bead batches Message-ID: <970408201403_72240.1256_EHB137-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"cvAn7.0.Ji6.FUgIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Horace Heffner writes: (2) Then all batches showing positive results should be mixed and then 12 experiment size samples from the mixed batch of beads distributed to each researcher doing the experiment replications. . . . Why mix them? I don't understand this part. I should think you want to track results from individual batches, rather than mixing them up. Why not distribute all Batch 6 Beads to one researcher, and Batch 8 to another, if both 6 and 8 are good. Experimenters should make at least 12 runs using 12 samples. With this procedure, the probability of a completely null replication should be astronomically low. To pick an astronomical expression: Good Heavens no! I am afraid that even with good beads there are countless ways to botch the experiment. I have not seen a comprehensive paper listing all of the known ways to get it wrong, but based on discussions with Patterson, Cravens and McKubre I think it is a Goldilocks experiment. You don't want to make it too hot because the beads sublime, but if they are too cold they never work. You can't pack them too tightly or they will crack and the electrolyte will not reach the inside, but if you make them too loose you get insufficient continuity, and salts forming in the spaces between beads. You don't want to use too much current at first, and not too little later on. The bead bed must not be too broad, or too thick either or the electrolyte will not penetrate it, especially if the flow is too fast or too slow. And, of course, you must keep everything clean and avoid short circuits. That is not easy with a handmade device where the anode and cathode are millimeters apart. It is frustrating, but the fact is, unless you take lessons from Patterson you would probably have to work on this for years before getting positive results. You would have to go through batch after batch, make all of the mistakes he made, and gradually learn everything he learned. Unfortunately, he will not publish a comprehensive guide to doing the experiment, because he wants to keep that a trade secret. He patents are a big help to experienced electrochemists like McKubre, who wrote his graduate thesis on a closely related subject. In patent-ese, McKubre is "A Person Skilled In The Art." Those who are not will find the patents unhelpful. Sooner or later the purpose [of the CETI experiment] should be confirmation, replication. Personally, I think it's already later. You think so, and I think so, but CETI does not. They do not want confirmation. They discourage people who try to replicate independently. To be blunt, they harrass them, and threaten legal action for patent infringement. They want to keep the methodology secret and even the existance of the research under cover. This is part of their business strategy, which I have discussed frequently. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 14:30:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA06289; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:27:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Can't eat oil Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 21:24:31 +0000 Message-ID: <19970408212429.AAA19357 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"hzp5T.0.BY1.uWhIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: >Cattle (and ants)are responsible for loading the atmosphere with methane. >Flatulence is methane and no CO2. 1, If the cattle didn't turn a good portion of the biomass into something of utility in the food chain aerobic bacteria would do so with oxidation anyhow,leaving nothing in the food chain. 2, It is physically impossible to get methane or any other such products from bacterial metabolism without getting close to a molar equivalent of CO2. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 15:06:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA11439 for billb@eskimo.com; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:06:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: mica world.std.com Tue Apr 8 15:06:49 1997 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA11421 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA16313; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:06:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mica.world.std.com (world.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19407; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:05:58 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970408220454.0069ec8c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_860551494==_" Old-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 18:04:54 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Vortex appropriate?---was: Can't eat oil X-Attachments: C:\uulittleksinv; X-Diagnostic: Submission size exceeds 40000 bytes X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_860551494==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:24 PM 4/8/97 -0500, Scott wrote: >Hey Mitchell, we're on the same side! People on my side read the literature and don't limit what others can speak about. =============================================== > I'm trying to reduce the amount of >overhead in this discussion group and you're increasing it with useless >nit-picking. > Scott, you are projecting because YOU were inaccurate in YOUR nit-picking. I just agreed with you. You apparently dont like having your errors brought out to you. You don't like people to speak their minds apparently on vortex. You certainly do not take the time to investigate the literature by your own admission, but recommend you do before your own "useless nit-picking (per Scott's phrase)", Scott. ================================================ >> Since Scott has not made a single CF phenomenon work... > >We're working hard to correct that situation. We have tried a number of >experiments in the past and we have not given up. We now have the CETI >Rifex kit going, and a Ragland triode replication (OK, >Jed..."approximation") is running in the dual-method calorimeter right now. > Good for you. Your thermometric, calorimetric, and data reduction setup will be carefully tested as to what you measure compared with what Miley and Ragland have reported. Hope you make that first tier of actually repeating someone's experiment. ================================================ >>CF is reproducible, and if Scott might actually check the literature >>out for a change, he would see this is true. He might also improve the >>accuracy of his own comments, measurements and observations. >The accuracy of my own measurements is quite sufficient to observe the >reported effects. As you can see from the description of our dual-method >calorimeter, we can reliably see as little as 0.1 watts of excess heat from >an experiment running in the 0-1 watt total input range. Above that level, >we typically obtain 2-5% relative accuracy up to the capacity of this >calorimeter which is around 15-20 watts. Your calorimeter has problems some of which I shared with you by private email. That includes the appearance of significant sensitivity of something during the time the input did not change. Given that, see KS1 curves for example, given the outputs which are not rock steady even in the calibration ("sim excess heat"), because only the blue curve (Pflow) is even close without significant time delay, and because of other reasons (vide infra), those numbers might be looked at closer. =================================================== >We would be delighted to run one of your cells in this calorimeter, >Mitchell, and publish a detailed report of our findings for all to see. > Thanks for the offer. Our results are published. We have also published data confirming others electrodes. Hopefully someday, your own calorimetry will become more serious with more reasonable measurements of noise, and adequate initial baselines (which you may have had, but did not post on the Internet with the curves which you did post), and a closer look at what you did measure. ======================================================= >> >> Hope that helps. > >For some reason, I doubt the sincerity of this last statement. > You are quite wrong again. I do hope it helps, and have been working to help this field for quite a few years. Where have you been? However, Scott, your own inaccuracy, your putting down of the field of cold fusion and attempting to substitute ZPE (quite reminiscent of project "Blue Book"), your hope to be "testing board" of the field without your reading every paper in the literature, or having even achieved one positive cf experiment makes one suspect your own sincerity, Scott. Corroborating that, furthermore and consistent with my attempts to help, Scott, I pointed out to you that KS beads results which YOU posted on the Internet MIGHT HAVE had the appearance of xs heat in the lowest drive level, and that your observed fall-off of very low level xsh (excess heat) may have been characteristic of the pi-notch reported by me in Fusion Technology (Jan '97 issue). Although I pointed this out to you, and asked you a series of questions, you did not appear to really look closer. Suggest you do again. Any person here is invited to look for themselves at your KS data, too. A cropped, blown-up, reversed image of Scotts data is appended UUencoded. It would be nice if Scott could take us through the regions of the curve. Scott, perhaps you might send me your data of curves Pflow and Pin or plot yourself Pflow as function of Pin, and share that set of data points. Thanks in advance. Best wishes. 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    7\K_#_`##VDOY'^'^9TE%8OAR]BU_1+75]/U2^-M9*5VR#YI?D8[4Y'S<;N_"MQW$UKFTUR/1+=]7U"_>V-T MT5NML-D08+N)DVCECC`)/!Z<5:\.7L6OZ):ZOI^J7QMKE2R[XXU8$$ @C9U! M!'&1QP2.:.>7\K_#_,/:2_D?X?YFU157[+/_`-!*[_[YB_\`B**.>7\K_#_, M/:2_D?X?YG+?&59KGP)>Z9:6=[=W=UY?E1V]K)+G;*C')52%XSU(S XS6?K$ M,5W\0[;7;JTUU=*ET9K=);6"[BE$RSY*NL0$BC!R-P`/49Q7H=%:&IS_`,.O M[9_X0K3/^$ \[^T?*/F^=_K,;CLW?[6S;G/.>O.:Z"BB@#S_`,5Z?,?B5!J% MW!>_V1-I`MIGMK.2X\TK<"0PL(P2JL,`[ 0R[UZG(U_A-I][I?P]TJRU"W>V MN561FB?AE#2,PR.QPPX/(Z'FNIHH`*X;Q/:-_P`+&M[_`%"VU/\`LO\`LAH4 MGTZ.?S/.\X$HS6_[S;MP0&^7.<W=W=>7Y4=O:R2YVRHQR M54A>,]2,X.,UGZQ#%=_$.VUVZM-=72I=&:W26U NXI1,L^2KK$!(HP_V1-I`MIGMK.2X\TK<"0PL(P2JL,`[ 0R[UZG(U_A-I M][I?P]TJRU"W>VN561FB?AE#2,PR.QPPX/(Z'FNIHH`*X;Q/:-_PL:WO]0MM M3_LO^R&A2?3HY_,\[S 2C-;_`+S;MP0&^7.<UDESM ME1CDJI"\9ZD9P<9KLZ*`//-8ABN_B';:[=6FNKI4NC-;I+:P7<4HF6?)5UB` MD48.1N`!ZC.*Z/X=?VS_`,(5IG_"0>=_:/E'S?._UF-QV;O]K9MSGG/7G-=! M10`4444`>?\`BO3YC\2H-0NX+W^R)M(%M,]M9R7'FE; 2&%A&"55A@'<"&7> MO4Y&O\)M/O=+^'NE66H6[VURJR,T3\,H:1F&1V.&'!Y'0\UU-%`!7#>)[1O^ M%C6]_J%MJ?\`9?\`9#0I/IT<_F>=YP)1FM_WFW; @-\NZ9:6=[=W=UY M?E1V]K)+G;*C')52%XSU(S XS79T4`>>:Q#%=_$.VUVZM-=72I=&:W26U@NX MI1,L^2KK$!(HPVLY+CS2MP)#"PC!*JPP#N M!#+O7JVN561FB?AE#2,PR.QPPX/(Z'FNIHH MH`*X;Q/:-_PL:WO]0MM3_LO^R&A2?3HY_,\[S 2C-;_O-NW!`;Y<]>Z59:A;O;7*K(S1/PRAI&89'8X8< M'D=#S74T44`%<-XGM&_X6-;W^H6VI_V7_9#0I/IT<_F>=YP)1FM_WFW; @-\ MNZ9:6=[=W=UY?E1V]K)+G;*C')52%XSU(S XS79T4`>>:Q#%=_$.VUV MZM-=72I=&:W26U NXI1,L^2KK$!(HPZ7\/=*LM0MWMKE5D9HGX90 MTC,,CL<,.#R.AYKJ:**`.&\3VC?\+&M[_4+;4_[+_LAH4GTZ.?S/.\X$HS6_ M[S;MP0&^7.< Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 15:40:10 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Vortex appropriate?---was: Can't eat oil References: <2.2.32.19970408175129.0069cd60 world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RzvQq3.0.4r3.dbiIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > IMHO, remote viewing the literature probably won't help, given that > it historically did not prevent Earthtech from attempting CF on a > US 5 cent piece which is not even composed of nickel but > mainly copper. > Ouch, that is a funny one! Scott and Hal: does EarthTech really employ remotive viewing literature searches? If so, can you tell us what results CETI and P&F are really getting? :-), :-) -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 16:06:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA16529; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: 08 Apr 97 18:44:29 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: AC Clarke CF Interview Message-ID: <970408224429_76016.2701_JHC96-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Y4IYd1.0.624.ehiIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts!! Discover Magazine has shunned the CF subject in the past; but, they have just had it rammed down their throat by Arthur C. Clarke. God! I love that old man! Following are exerpts from his brief interview in their May issue (dedicated to a renewed interested in space travel) via phone by Fred Guterl. (After I finish this, I'm going to find their web site and compliment them on their courage .) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contents page: p. 68 AN ODYSSEY OF SORTS - An interview with Arthur C. Clarke, who isn't going to talk about anything he doesn't want to talk about. Interview exerpts: Discover: I'd like to talk to you about your ideas concerning space travel. Clarke: I've written dozens of books on the subject and I'm sick and tired of talking about it. I've got nothing new to add, except I think more and more that the new space age, and the new everything age, is linked more and more to the new energy revolution. D: What revolution is that? C: For one thing, there is this so-called cold fusion. Which is neither cold nor fusion. Very few Americans seem to know what is happening, which is incredible. It's all over the world, except the United States. There are hundreds of laboratories doing it, they've got patents all over the place. The prototypes are on sale now. There are 7,000 units operating in Russia right now and no one in the United States seems to know about it. D: What does this mean for space exploration? C: One of the by-products may be propulsion. That's why I'm no longer interested in rockets or reusable spacecraft -- the X-33 and all that. The rocket will do for space flight just what the balloon did for flight. D: Which is not much. C: Well, it started it. Unfortunately, in many cases we're damned sure it's not fusion anyway, just that it's cold. D: If it's not fusion, what is it? C: That's what's scary. There's also some suggestion that if you go and muck around with the structure of space, you may get a space drive. Julian Schwinger, the Nobel Laureate, has a theory that we're actually beginning to tap the quantum fluctuations. D: We're being ATTACKED by them? C: We're beginning to TAP them. [Laughter.] Now you've given me an idea for my next story. D: You mean the "zero-point energy" that some scientists believe comes from empty space? C: Exactly. D: So if one or both of these theories are correct, how soon will we see an impact on the space program? C: It will obviously take a long time, anyway. Because there are so many vested interests. There are the hot-fusion boys. All the rocket engineers will be out of jobs, and a lot of the poor guys are already. I don't like to guess at a scenario, but I would say that before the end of this decade, the hand waving will be over and people will accept that this energy exists, whatever it is, and there may actually be several different varieties. A lot of heads will roll at the U. S. Department of Energy and elsewhere. [snip] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Clarke goes on to mention the antigravity experiments and the modified BuckyBalls that could be used as a space elevator. God Bless Arthur C. Clarke! Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 17:48:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA02225; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <334AE53C.45E7 math.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 17:39:24 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: AC Clarke CF Interview References: <970408224429_76016.2701_JHC96-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kVrFt3.0.cY.NLkIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > Clarke: For one thing, there is this so-called cold fusion. ... > There are hundreds of laboratories doing it, they've got patents > all over the place. The prototypes are on sale now. There are > 7,000 units operating in Russia right now A. Clarke apparently believes in the Potapov device, regardless of its repeated irrepredocibility. Personally, I don't trust a science fiction writer to tell me about science---he has a vested interest in the fantastic over the real. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 19:25:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA16952; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: 08 Apr 97 21:59:12 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: AC Clarke CF Interview Message-ID: <970409015911_76016.2701_JHC104-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"kNMyx2.0.n84.ZllIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: >Personally, I don't trust >a science fiction writer to tell me about science---he has a vested >interest in the fantastic over the real. I'm not so excited about the veracity of Mr. Clarke's statements either. Some are even self-contradicting. But ACC is a major opinion leader. Few people understand nuclear power generators; but, virtually everyone has an opinion on them based on what they have heard from people they trust, not science. Observe the results this opinion in the U.S. as compared to France which is well over 50% nuclear. No, my excitement comes from seeing cold fusion mentioned in "Discover"; since, they have shunned the subject for years. Another bastion of denial finds the foundations of its belief structure undermined by a leader in popular science, the basis of the magazine's existence. After all, Clarke is the closest thing we have to a prophet in these "modern" times. Terry (thinking I shouldn't mention France and "Discover", which is owned by Disney, in the same post ) "Life is too short to be taken seriously." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 19:49:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA20606; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970408194618.00728798 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 19:46:20 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Anyone knows a formula for this ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_860579180==_" Resent-Message-ID: <"9o5T5.0.r15.HBmIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_860579180==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Attached is a graph of a magnetic attraction VERSUS distance of a ferromagnetic block into a GAP between two permanent magnets in an attracting mode. (along the gap's centerline) Note: this is NOT the same as an open-pole magnet attracting a piece of iron, where the attraction force is related to inverse cube of the distance. As you can see the red curve doesn't resemble inverse cube relationship and the blue curve (B field through the block) resembles a tangent function more than anything else. Is any one of you good enough with math to come up with a formula for the red or blue curve ? --=====================_860579180==_ Content-Type: image/gif; name="NS Attract.gif"; x-mac-type="47494666"; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="NS Attract.gif" R0lGODlh2AAgAfcAAP/////+/v/9/f/8/P/7+//6+v/5+f/4+P/29v/19f/09P/z8//y8v/x8f/r 6/7+//7+/v7u7v7r6/7q6v7p6f7n5/7k5P7j4/7h4f7c3P7X1/7W1v7T0/7S0v7R0f3+//39//39 /f3Hx/2/v/28vPyrq/yjo/ygoPv8//v7+/uGhvt+fvtBHPr6+vpubvpqavpoaPplZfpiYvphYfpf X/pcXPpbW/pZWfpWVvpRUfn6/vn5+flOTvlHR/k8PPk7O/k6OvkyMvj6/vj4+PgsLPgqKvgnJ/gk JPggIPgeHvgbG/gZGfgUFPgTE/gREff39/cYGPcSEvcODvcNDfcMDPcLC/cKCvcJCfcICPcHB/cG BvcFBfcEBPcDA/cCAvcBAfcAAPb29vX3/vX19fP1/vPz8/Ly8vDw8O/v7+7u7u3w/ezs7Ovr6+rq 6unt/ejo6Obm5uXq/eXq/OXl5ePj49/k+97wDt7k+93d3dje+9fX19bW1tXc+tDQ0M/Pz8vU+cfH x8bGxsLM+MDAwL+/v7rG97nE96+89q+vr6m39ae29aa19aSkpKKy9aGw9KCw9J+v9J+fn52t9J2d 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pSfSHsKxoz8aKQ56GaOKpS2qG7HaobN6q7wSEAA7 --=====================_860579180==_-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 20:13:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA02760; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:50:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:50:58 -0700 Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:50:34 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: AC Clarke CF Interview In-Reply-To: <970409015911_76016.2701_JHC104-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"HLX9t.0.1h.GGmIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8 Apr 1997, Terry Blanton wrote: > Terry (thinking I shouldn't mention France and "Discover", which is owned by > Disney, in the same post ) > "Life is too short to be taken seriously." > > I'll be spending some time Europe later this year with my wife and 3 yeard-old. We look forward to visiting Euro-Disney since we hope to have genuinely entertaining time (especially for my daughter) without the crowds at the American Disneylands. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 09:10:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA14450; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:06:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:06:33 -0700 Date: 08 Apr 97 12:04:09 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Subject: Scott: get a faster modem! Message-ID: <970408160408_72240.1256_EHB106-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"O9tSp2.0.dX3.8qcIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:little eden.com Scott Little would like us to stop discussing the world energy situation, synthetic food and so on. He says: If my request is honored by all members of Vortex, I expect to have about 30 minutes more each day to devote to performing the experiments now underway here at EarthTech . . . Thirty minutes?!? Good grief! Get a faster modem, Scott. I can download every message on Vortex for a full day in five minutes. I can glance through the topics in a few seconds and ignore the ones about subjects that do not interest me. Why should it take anyone 30 minutes? Look here, Scott. I never read the Sports section of the newspaper. Never even glance at it. Do you see me writing letters to the Editor demanding they stop printing the Sports section? That's nuts! Other people like it. It doesn't hurt me. All of the messages ever written on Vortex about these off-topic subjects could not have cost you $5 in e-mail connection time. You can skip any message in the time it takes to glance at the title and press the PgDn key. The non-technical messages generally fit within the guidelines for Vortex. They usually avoid "ridicule, debunkery, and namecalling between believers and skeptics," The tone is usually one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. So what's to get upset about? Further, I expect to gain valuable insights into these experiments by reading concise, pertinent, undiluted comments on Vortex. Pay close attention to the politics of cold fusion, and you will get all kinds of valuable insights! You'll see why things are such a mess, and why people like Fleischmann are so alienated. Patents, competition and politics explain Most Of It. Nothing could be more pertinent ("having logical, precise relevance to the matter at hand." - American Heritage) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 21:15:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA13750; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:59:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:59:37 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:59:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704090359.WAA14999 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Cold Fusion Times articles Resent-Message-ID: <"z_aHn2.0.lM3.eGnIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just got my latest issue of Cold Fusion Times...thanks Mitchell...lot's of interesting info in there. I enjoyed the "patent wars" article (I like to read about patent activity once in a great while)...I had no idea such skullduggery was going on with CETI. BTW, I do not understand why it is felt that issuance of the F&P European patent will significantly facilitate CF research in the US. Is it simply that the European patent would legitimize CF? On page 3 is a short article by Ogawa et al that I am having trouble understanding. For one thing, in the 3rd paragraph, they state that they observed excess heat "up to 6.5 watts (2.5% of the input power)".... Surely the 2.5% figure is a misprint. If not, the input power was 260 watts! Then there are the excess heat graphs which are presented as "frequency histograms". What "frequency" is this?...the numbers are up around 15-20. Is that the number of separate experiments that showed such an excess heat...or what? Thanks in advance for any explanations. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 21:18:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA00535; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 21:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 21:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <334AAC9E.3DE5 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 00:37:50 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b2 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Difficulities of new technologies X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"PBTyy1.0.E8.8QnIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here, I would like to emphasize the difficulties about commercialization of an invention based to an unknown (until now) physical phenomenon and not having a theoretical explanation. In principle discoveries of physical laws should not be patentable. This is true for discoveries of physical phenomenon itself. Reproducing an physical phenomenon should not be associated to a patent. I have no deep knowledge about patents but by common sense, only materials, procedures (productive, operational), conventions and know-how’s are subject of patents. Still there is a way to acquire a patent about a machinery which use some novel physical phenomenon, but the patent can not be extended to any setup which profit from the discovered phenomenon and physical laws. In our case "simple OU device", the patent will be about probably about the specific device as described. So if the device is the simplest way to demonstrate the new phenomenon it may find place on schools laboratories. As a engineer I believe that is impossible to cover every probable configuration to get profitable stuff from an physical principle or phenomenon. In this scheme, scientists who wants commercialization of their inventions based on novel phenomenon using patents are forcing them selves to make an unique ingenious design to connect tightly the based physical principle to the apparatus. By this way, they are sacrificing of the versatility of their inventions, bury the real power of their invention and tend to hide the principle behind it . This is a real paradox. From an investor point of view this is very inconvenient, because it must pay a patent fee for a specific device, but real power is not on the patented device but on the phenomenon which capable to give life to innumerable applications that can be created by independent scientists. Maybe the major difficulty comes form attitude of governments and the system as a whole. This is a very big subject to discuss but I think the key points are the right of individuals or rights of governments over individuals. Actually, we are all contracted. The elements of this contract are laws, rules of economics and visible and hidden rules embedded in our society and our organizations. We are always forced to be compatible like the cells of an organism. We can not initiate a technology by ourselves without getting permission. No way for a innovation which capable to impact our life. These rules are always here for thousands years. Science history is full of these examples. There are also minor issues as security: Any usage of an unknown technology or a phenomenon contradicting with current scientific knowledge may be considered as a threat for the system even the application has nothing with security. This is obvious from classified technologies. These rules had never changed from the begining. Etc. … Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 00:37:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA22158; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 00:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 00:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:39:04 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Major solar flare occuring now? Resent-Message-ID: <"6lTwM.0.7Q5.hQqIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts Vorts! Ions on their way! Solar flare! Communications may be down soon. See: Has annimated series of photos showing something supposedly hitting the sun. I couldn't see it, but I've needed new glasses for years. Nothing to it I suppo# *##(%)(^$)$_%+_%()^!@)$)#%^%@##)!#)@ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 03:54:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA03649; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 03:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 03:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:52:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Abuse of vortex In-Reply-To: <19970408160651.AAA5078 LOCALNAME> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"sXStO2.0.xu.8JtIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frederick, what's this mean, I'm not adverse to laughing at myself a little. Is it cutting, really witty like? > THE WIZARD OF OZ-TIN HAS SPOKEN. BE-WHERE? :-) > Expectorantly, Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 03:55:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA24928; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 03:51:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 03:51:06 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970409035234.00a933d0 aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 03:52:36 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: Abuse of vortex Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"9Io-g2.0.Q56.QItIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:07 PM 4/8/97 +0000, you wrote: >Vortex, > >Being a comparative newcomer, I'm not often aware of the scope and rules >of this group. Yep, go away and read the subscription text - but nobody >reads the manual - much. I do however stand corrected in this and all >matters... > >. Yes, keep it relevant to energy production. > >. Moral implications of our technologies, future guessing relevant. > >. Science in general. > >. Political, finanicial matters we experience in our research are relevant. > >. Wit. Jokes. Lets not be boring. Its a scientific fact that a good > demeanour leads to creative thinking. Try Edward de Bono 'Lateral thinking' > >That kind of priority? > >Threads burst on the scene, people get angry, they private email, then it >receeds with parties either having made up their mind to do something or >just were happy to have a coffee table chat. > >Someone called this group a think-tank. It's good because it is diverse >and not insular. All we need is a little self discipline. > >................................................................. >I suggest message headers are well written!!! >Filter that way. >................................................................. > >Don't spoil the fun by regulation, >We're mainly adults, >Remi. > > Right on, Remi! ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 04:08:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA27187; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 04:07:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 04:07:19 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970409040847.009a5700 aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 04:08:49 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: AC Clarke CF Interview Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"U7ec_2.0.je6.cXtIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:39 PM 4/8/97 -0700, you wrote: >Terry Blanton wrote: >> > >> Clarke: For one thing, there is this so-called cold fusion. ... >> There are hundreds of laboratories doing it, they've got patents >> all over the place. The prototypes are on sale now. There are >> 7,000 units operating in Russia right now > >A. Clarke apparently believes in the Potapov device, regardless >of its repeated irrepredocibility. Personally, I don't trust >a science fiction writer to tell me about science---he has a vested >interest in the fantastic over the real. > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry > > Jesus Christ mon, A. Clarke wrote the vision and faithfully propagated it for 40 years that by DIRECT CAUSATION LED DIRECTLY TO THE COMMUNICATIONS CAPABILITY YOU USED TO SEND THIS MESSAGE. Get a clue, mon, Clarke's brain is tapped directly into the infinity well. Without the "fantastic" as you call it, none of this would be remotely fun. Clarke happens to be a prime example of the grand synthesizing capabiility of scientific reasoning, the place where it pays off in wisdom, the ability to generalize beyond little picket specialty fences. You oughta hang out there. When historians of century 22 try to figure the 20th, Clarke will be one of the primary sources for what people were actually thinking about in the technical and scientific communities. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 04:10:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA04508; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 04:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 04:09:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970409041046.00a93ea0 aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 04:10:48 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: Synthesizing oil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4RYQ21.0.H61.lZtIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:12 PM 3/25/97 -0500, you wrote: >Jed Rothwell has a good idea about mining the air for carbon > g'day gents. have been so busy writing my book the past two months i haven't had time to read much of vortex. tonite i briefly scanned two months of the topics and picked only this one to read. you are all missing the best bet, namely, CELLS (as in biology) sit up straight there Jed and listen real close: In 1980 I had a reneweable energy distributorship in California, in the business of selling alcohol fuel plants (we went broke when interest rates went to 22% but that is another story). Naturally I was scanning all knowledge bases at the time related to the so-called energy crisis and new technology. I tracked one researcher accross several months, trying to hunt him down but he successfully disappeared into the Rockefeller machine. Here is what happened. A Canadian researcher presented a paper in the Academy of Science annual meeting. He was reporting upon his verification and replication of the experiments of a French/Isreali R&D project. As part of a dead sea reclamation project, the Israelis who had worked on the engineering of Israel's water recycling system (they throw very little away, even the sewage water is reused) attempted to find ways to make the Dead Sea productive, which is a daunting task because of the extremly high salt content. Has a nasty habit of pickling anything thrown into it. They discovered that when they combined the high salt water of the Dead Sea with their (nitrogen rich) sewage water, a commonplace green algae would bloom in profusion, namely, Duneliella Parva (sp? it has been a long time guys)(which is found in sewage water all over the planet) exhibiting a most strange survival mechanism. This one-celled algae would, given lots of dissolved nitrogen and other minerals, would metabolize the bulk of its carbon respiration into an oily substance which it would secrete, the oil of course would tend to encase its cell walls, thus protecting it from the salt (and causing it to tend to float right on top of the water). The osmatic pressure from the salt would continually leach away the oily substance so the cell would have to continue to produce it. Given warm temperatures and plenty of nutrients, tremendous rates of production could be achieved, namely, they calculated that one acre foot of water could (assuming constant year round production) produce 150,000 gallons per year of this oily substance. That is a phenomenal rate of productivity for biomass. What is the oily substance? Pure glycerol, which is one of the most important base hydrocarbons for all other synthesis. It is like an ultra pure, light diesel, in fact can be used directly in place of diesel. The reason why I could never find the Canadian researcher is that right after the Academy presentation, he went on a speaking tour and then got hired right away from Canada to work under a multi-million dollar R&D grant to evolve a patenable version of duneliella parva, for, guess who: David Rockefeller. Somewhere at a secret location in Florida. My lead ends there. At the time I was going broke, lost my focus and interest in the subject for several years. There has never been another word about this appear anywhere, near as I can tell. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 04:46:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA30143; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 04:37:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 04:37:58 -0700 Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:38:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Without theory... a short poem. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"D5DVQ.0.uM7.L-tIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This will piss some people off! Without theory, Without an approach: You are but a mere adolescent, Fumbling in the dark, In his pants; Come the cold light of day, And just what do you have? Without results, Without wider credence, You are, But a, Jerk. Er, its blank verse. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 05:44:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA04541; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 05:40:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 05:40:18 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970409124002.008e9e34 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 08:40:02 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Synthesizing oil Resent-Message-ID: <"EOHuq.0.o61.nuuIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:10 AM 4/9/97 +0100, Michael Mandville wrote: >At 02:12 PM 3/25/97 -0500, you wrote: > >What is the oily substance? Pure glycerol, which is one of the most >important base hydrocarbons for all other synthesis. It is like an ultra >pure, light diesel, in fact can be used directly in place of diesel. > >> >____________________________________ >MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing >Michael Mandeville, publisher >mwm aa.net >http://www.aa.net/~mwm > Glycerol is classified as an alcohol and is very water soluble. Yes, glycerol is used in other syntheses but is not one of the most important based "hydrocarbon". I wouldn't want to use it in my diesel tractor. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 05:58:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA00590 for billb@eskimo.com; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 05:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 05:58:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: mica world.std.com Wed Apr 9 05:58:21 1997 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA00574 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 05:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA19267; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mica.world.std.com (world.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05360; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:56:14 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970409125500.006aa8cc world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_860604900==_" Old-Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 08:55:00 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Littles KS Curves X-Attachments: C:\uulittleksinv; X-Diagnostic: Submission size exceeds 40000 bytes X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: --=====================_860604900==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I pointed out to Scott Little that KS beads results which he posted on the Internet MIGHT HAVE had the appearance of xs heat in the lowest drive level, and that his observed fall-off of xsh (excess heat) was characteristic of the pi-notch reported by me in Fusion Technology. Any person here is invited to look for themselves at Scotts KS data, too. A cropped, blown-up, reversed image of Scotts data is appended UU encoded here. Hopefully Scott might send me your data of curves Pflow and Pin f(t) or plot himself Pflow as function of Pin, and share that set of data points. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) --=====================_860604900==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" begin 755 ks1invcrp1.jpg M_]C_X``02D9)1 `!`0```0`!``#_VP!#``4#!`0$`P4$!`0%!04&!PP(!P<' M!P\+"PD,$0\2$A$/$1$3%AP7$Q0:%1$1&"$8&AT='Q\?$Q)!P>'Q[_ MVP!#`04%!0<&!PX("`X>%!$4'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX> M'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>'A[_P``1"`$,`=,#`2(``A$!`Q$!_\0` M'P```04!`0$!`0$```````````$"`P0%! <("0H+_\0`M1```@$#`P($`P4% M!`0```%]`0(#``01!1(A,4$&$U%A!R)Q%#*!D:$((T*QP152T?`D,V)R @D* M%A<8&1HE)B7J#A(6&AXB)BI*3E)66EYB9FJ*CI*6FIZBIJK*SM+6VM[BYNL+#Q,7& MQ\C)RM+3U-76U]C9VN'BX^3EYN?HZ>KQ\O/T]?;W^/GZ_\0`'P$``P$!`0$! 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    7\K_#_`##VDOY'^'^9TE%8OAR]BU_1+75]/U2^-M9*5VR#YI?D8[4Y'S<;N_"MQW$UKFTUR/1+=]7U"_>V-T MT5NML-D08+N)DVCECC`)/!Z<5:\.7L6OZ):ZOI^J7QMKE2R[XXU8$$ @C9U! M!'&1QP2.:.>7\K_#_,/:2_D?X?YFU157[+/_`-!*[_[YB_\`B**.>7\K_#_, M/:2_D?X?YG+?&59KGP)>Z9:6=[=W=UY?E1V]K)+G;*C')52%XSU(S XS6?K$ M,5W\0[;7;JTUU=*ET9K=);6"[BE$RSY*NL0$BC!R-P`/49Q7H=%:&IS_`,.O M[9_X0K3/^$ \[^T?*/F^=_K,;CLW?[6S;G/.>O.:Z"BB@#S_`,5Z?,?B5!J% MW!>_V1-I`MIGMK.2X\TK<"0PL(P2JL,`[ 0R[UZG(U_A-I][I?P]TJRU"W>V MN561FB?AE#2,PR.QPPX/(Z'FNIHH`*X;Q/:-_P`+&M[_`%"VU/\`LO\`LAH4 MGTZ.?S/.\X$HS6_[S;MP0&^7.<W=W=>7Y4=O:R2YVRHQR M54A>,]2,X.,UGZQ#%=_$.VUVZM-=72I=&:W26U NXI1,L^2KK$!(HP_V1-I`MIGMK.2X\TK<"0PL(P2JL,`[ 0R[UZG(U_A-I M][I?P]TJRU"W>VN561FB?AE#2,PR.QPPX/(Z'FNIHH`*X;Q/:-_PL:WO]0MM M3_LO^R&A2?3HY_,\[S 2C-;_`+S;MP0&^7.<UDESM ME1CDJI"\9ZD9P<9KLZ*`//-8ABN_B';:[=6FNKI4NC-;I+:P7<4HF6?)5UB` MD48.1N`!ZC.*Z/X=?VS_`,(5IG_"0>=_:/E'S?._UF-QV;O]K9MSGG/7G-=! M10`4444`>?\`BO3YC\2H-0NX+W^R)M(%M,]M9R7'FE; 2&%A&"55A@'<"&7> MO4Y&O\)M/O=+^'NE66H6[VURJR,T3\,H:1F&1V.&'!Y'0\UU-%`!7#>)[1O^ M%C6]_J%MJ?\`9?\`9#0I/IT<_F>=YP)1FM_WFW; @-\NZ9:6=[=W=UY M?E1V]K)+G;*C')52%XSU(S XS79T4`>>:Q#%=_$.VUVZM-=72I=&:W26U@NX MI1,L^2KK$!(HPVLY+CS2MP)#"PC!*JPP#N M!#+O7JVN561FB?AE#2,PR.QPPX/(Z'FNIHH MH`*X;Q/:-_PL:WO]0MM3_LO^R&A2?3HY_,\[S 2C-;_O-NW!`;Y<]>Z59:A;O;7*K(S1/PRAI&89'8X8< M'D=#S74T44`%<-XGM&_X6-;W^H6VI_V7_9#0I/IT<_F>=YP)1FM_WFW; @-\ MNZ9:6=[=W=UY?E1V]K)+G;*C')52%XSU(S XS79T4`>>:Q#%=_$.VUV MZM-=72I=&:W26U NXI1,L^2KK$!(HPZ7\/=*LM0MWMKE5D9HGX90 MTC,,CL<,.#R.AYKJ:**`.&\3VC?\+&M[_4+;4_[+_LAH4GTZ.?S/.\X$HS6_ M[S;MP0&^7.< Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:12:05 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: NOAA study Resent-Message-ID: <"Hwu7b1.0.Ze.WpyIp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It was just announced on Anchorage local news that NOAA has released data regarding the ozone layer above Barrow, Alaska. The ozone layer there has thinned by 25 percent since last year at this time. The global warming impact probability estimates I just gave are already dated. We need to find a way to get energy research really moving. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 11:05:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA18447; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <334BD88B.5A88 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 13:57:31 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Hourglass" Pinch Device References: <19970409145532.AAA16509 LOCALNAME> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RiR2S3.0.7W4.HYzIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > Vortexians: > > If one took a quartz "hourglass" and filled it with a conductive > solution (lithium salts?)of water or heavy under high hydrostatic > pressure and dumped a capacitor bank through it. > I did something like this with my capacitor bank, Frederick, but I substituted copper for your salt solution. I took about a 2.5 inch length of #4 solid copper (.204 in. dia.) and necked it down to about 1/8 in. dia. in the middle. I chucked it in the discharge line and gave it about 200,000 amps for a couple of hundred microseconds. I vaporized the link and bent the stubs off-center but no anomalous effects in my 30 frames per second camcorder record. My bank is a "slow pulse" system (1150 volts, 96,000 MFD) so my hope was that I could wait out the thermodynamic explosion and then get a pinch after the pressure had dropped to near atmospheric. I think the plasma ball expanded with the explosion and never again reached pinch size. I see that the modern pinch rigs use fast pulse-lines to deliver hundreds of kiloamps in 1 or 2 microseconds thru very tiny filaments of conductive stuff - eventually to be fusion fuel filaments. My trouble is I need a fat conductor to give my bank time to reach peak current - and then I need to get rid of all that extra mass so the plasma would have a chance to pinch. When I have time, I want to do more runs with various dielectric baffels around the pinch neck to force the current thru a small hole. I think your conductive salt solution would have similar problems but a really tiny neck plus a fast-pulse generator would be very interesting. I think this is roughly what the British "MAGPIE" rig is all about. Still home decorating ----- Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 11:06:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA18608; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:02:11 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Major solar flare occuring now? Resent-Message-ID: <"odgrG.0.cY4.uYzIp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R. Daniel Woolman has put up a better set of animated photos which show the solar flare that is on the way (even I can see it now, it shoots out in all directions from the sun, I was looking for a plume): Sorry for the slightly off topic post, but this has to be one of the more energetic phenomena of late, and might affect vortex communications soon. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 14:10:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA10926; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <334C03D1.1AB6 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 17:02:10 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Major solar flare occuring now? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eGI_d1.0.eg2.EF0Jp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > Sorry for the slightly off topic post, but this has to be one of the more > energetic phenomena of late, and might affect vortex communications soon. > I understand your interest Horace! Being nearer the pole, and with a thinner ozone layer, you may be in for a solar vapor blasting! Stay indoors or carry a lead umbrella when outside. Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 15:28:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA21997; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:20:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704092220.RAA00885 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: JET energy technology Resent-Message-ID: <"H_7Ax.0.cN5.KP1Jp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, on p. 8 of the latest Cold Fusion Times is a very interesting ad from your group, JET Energy Technologies. It advertises: Pi-NOTCH -Tested Nickel Electrodes (peak drive condition - 2.5 watts input power) (nominal 1.05-1.7 excess) (nominal 1.5-2.7 excess) (nominal 2.2-3.1 excess) (nominal 2.7-6.5 excess) (subject to availability) EarthTech would like to purchase one of these electrodes for testing in our calorimeter. We would like to share the results of our tests with all the members of Vortex and publish a report of our findings in Cold Fusion Times and possibly Fusion Technology. Any of your advertised excess heat levels would be quite satisfactory....how about the middle one, "nominal 1.5-2.7 excess"? That would yield a 15-20 sigma positive result in our calorimeter!!! What is the price and delivery for such an electrode? The ad also mentions an "electrophotodynamic" driver, presumably for supplying the electrolysis current in your cells. Could you provide us with a brief explanation of this driver's action? What is "photo" about it?...and what is "dynamic" about it? Thanks in advance. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 15:59:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA04927; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:48:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:48:37 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <334BF2A0.7817 math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 12:48:48 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: AC Clarke CF Interview References: <3.0.32.19970409040847.009a5700 aa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4wZTr3.0.jC1.0p1Jp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Mandeville wrote: > > > Jesus Christ mon, A. Clarke wrote the vision and faithfully propagated it > for 40 years that by DIRECT CAUSATION LED DIRECTLY TO > THE COMMUNICATIONS CAPABILITY YOU USED TO SEND THIS MESSAGE. You mean the Nazi german and the post-WWII soviet scientists were all reading A. Clarke? Amazing. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 17:03:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA07474; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:50:02 -0700 (PDT) From: RMCarrell aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970409194202_956247269 emout13.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Can't eat oil -- but there is creativity in complexity Resent-Message-ID: <"yiQXm.0.aq1.ai2Jp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 97-04-09 13:41:49 EDT, Jay Olson wrote: << My point exactly! You get proteins and DNA from organisms, not "primordial soup." The fact that evolution theory requires these increadibly complex molecules to spontaneously form and interact kind of blows my confidence in a lot of it. That's one reason I'd never make a decent biologist, I'd always be bringing math (that darn probability stuff) into evolution theory. At least in physics you can replicate most experiments nessisary to prove a point. (Uh oh, I may have just gotten myself into trouble there... :). And in physics, mathematics is usually a friend.>> The arguments invoking probability in discussions of evolution often wind up backing the discussion into the arms of the creationists who invoke special intervention. Dawkins in The Blind Watchmatker constructs a powerful argument that given time, evolution is a most powerful mechanism for building organisms. There is a middle path which is worth study by all sides of this argument, and if the several debaters don't take time to look at it, you are missing the boat. There have been a number of computer simulations of the evolutionary process which create entities whose properties are defined by a string of numbers (genes). These entities are given a finite arena in which to "live", an "energy" source, ability to replicate with random alterations to the "genes". And most important of all, a selection criterion which determines who lives and dies. What is astonishing is the power and speed of this process in evolving successful entities, and the appearence of many aspects of living systems and groups. For an easy introduction, see Coveny & Highfield, Frontiers of Complexity, p253 for a description of Thomas May's Tierra program. What is missed in these discussions is that the universe exhibits self-organizing properties in systems which are far from thermal equilibrium. These discoveries do not directly show how something as complex as a cell evolves, but it strongly indicates that somehow life is a function of complexity and arises from the very matrix of the universe wherever not forbidden. I cling to neither the pole of evolution or special creation, but seem to see truth in a middle road between polarities. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 17:05:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA26358; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:27:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:27:06 -0700 Message-ID: <334BF84E.5875 loc1.tandem.com> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 12:13:02 -0800 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bad bead batches References: <970408163205_72240.1256_EHB71-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4Rlx93.0.IR6.2N2Jp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed -- I hate to belabor the point, but I think we are still not communicating. To clarify things try this: Let x = percent good batches of beads b = given a good batch, percentage of beads that work c = given a good batch, percentage of cells that work So if you run N batches of beads, the number of good cells is: Working cells = Nxc It seems like you are interpreting CETIs remarks to mean: x = .95 c = 1 I interpret CETIs remarks to mean: x = unknown (they just throw away bad batches with cell flaking) c = .95 A third interpretation might be xc = .95 what I am trying to determine is a function f where c = f(b) The normal assumption for f is that the "goodness" of a cell varies linearly with the number of good beads, or Excess power = kb and a cell can be said to be "good" once kb exceeds the detection limit. My hypothesis is that f is actually a function of both the number of good beads as well as other factors, such as the geometry of the cell and the way the reaction is started. Both of these would be important if a chain reaction is involved. This hypothesis is consistant with values of c less than 1. -- Bob From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 17:13:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA14045; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:08:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:08:44 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: fstenger interlaced.net From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: "Hourglass" Pinch Device Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:26:29 +0000 Message-ID: <19970409202627.AAA4817 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"mJBzs.0.9R3.A-2Jp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:57 PM 4/9/97 +0000, Frank Stenger wrote: >Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >> >> Vortexians: >> >> If one took a quartz "hourglass" and filled it with a conductive >> solution (lithium salts?)of water or heavy under high hydrostatic >> pressure and dumped a capacitor bank through it. >> >I did something like this with my capacitor bank, Frederick, but I >substituted copper for your salt solution. I took about a 2.5 inch >length of #4 solid copper (.204 in. dia.) and necked it down to about >1/8 in. dia. in the middle. I chucked it in the discharge line and >gave it about 200,000 amps for a couple of hundred microseconds. >I vaporized the link and bent the stubs off-center but no anomalous >effects in my 30 frames per second camcorder record. Gosh Frank you just about have the capacity to vaporize Ashtabula! I = V*(C/L)^1/2 = ~315,000 amps peak, pinch pressure I^2/200*Pi*r^2 dynes/cm^2. So you only had about 1.6 atmospheres of pinch pressure,true? > >My bank is a "slow pulse" system (1150 volts, 96,000 MFD) so my hope >was that I could wait out the thermodynamic explosion and then get a >pinch after the pressure had dropped to near atmospheric. I think the >plasma ball expanded with the explosion and never again reached pinch >size. I see that the modern pinch rigs use fast pulse-lines to deliver >hundreds of kiloamps in 1 or 2 microseconds thru very tiny filaments of >conductive stuff - eventually to be fusion fuel filaments. I think based on the behavior of hydrogen-steam (gas) discharges that you will see a significant difference from copper. What do you use to dump the capacitor bank? If you pressurize the liquid with say argon at a few hundred psi or more, the "self-healing" of the "liquid-filament" should be faster than the recharge time of the capacitor bank. > >My trouble is I need a fat conductor to give my bank time to reach peak >current - and then I need to get rid of all that extra mass so the >plasma would have a chance to pinch. When I have time, I want to do >more runs with various dielectric baffels around the pinch neck to >force the current thru a small hole. If you put something like "brillo-pads" in the enlarged portion of the hourglass the liquid solution should be able to handle the current without arcing. > >I think your conductive salt solution would have similar problems but >a really tiny neck plus a fast-pulse generator would be very >interesting. I think this is roughly what the British "MAGPIE" rig is >all about. > >Still home decorating ----- Frank Stenger > > Is that, still, home decorating or still home, decorating? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 17:14:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA14271; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:09:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:09:23 -0700 Date: 09 Apr 97 17:06:29 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Hugo on BLP Message-ID: <970409210629_72240.1256_EHB98-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"MAHsB2.0.nU3.l-2Jp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Mark Hugo (mark.d.hugo nspco.com) asked me to post this to Vortex. Some technical difficulty with Internet has been preventing him from posting messages directly. I have not read the Black Light Power home page carefully, so I have no opinion about the issues discussed in this message. Mark's spelling is almost as bad as mine, so I took the liberty of running this message through the Word Perfect spell check program. People who kant spell shoodn't try. Spelling is why God gave us computers. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dear Vortexians: I have recently gotten through the "goobly gook" of Mill's Black Light power to discover that in essence he is working on a modification of the "Piantelli" work of a couple years ago. I think someone made an oblique reference to this work a few weeks ago, and I didn't understand it at the time. As I can see from Mill's posting, he's using low pressure, "high" temp. H2 and some magic other additive to get an alleged 10:1. When looking at this a few alarm bells went off: (Although there is a possibility the observations ARE bona-fide.) Alarm Bell #1. His calorimetry is (apparently) being performed by thermocouples and delta's. This sort of calorimetry (if it is what is used) Could be fooled by temperature changes by physical phenomenon. I know of what I speak! Dr. Oriani has run this type of device (a S S cylinder with H2 gas, and an internal heater) and I have profiled it with a thermal probe. VERY uneven temps on the surface of the SS container. In the case of Dr. O., he built a very sophisticated high temp. Seebeck effect calorimeter capable of resolving .1 watts with a 50-100 watt input. In Mills case, he would not need anything so sophisticated. What is disturbing about this is that IT IS SO SIMPLE to validate the energy output claims. If anyone doesn't understand HOW you can use insulation, tygon tubing, a couple of thermometers and a water pump to build a "calorimeter" which could detect the allege multi-hundred watt output, Email me privately and I'll tell you! Alarm Bell #2. He's looking for "financing". This is bothersome when it comes to having POOR to NIL information published to substantiate generation claims. (I put a caveat on this, perhaps he has such information and has not put it on the Internet. If that is the case I am clearly in the wrong in this complaint.) Please note this: THERE IS NO THREAT TO INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY TO PUBLISH SUCH DATA! I post these observations as a "heads up". This is the case of another individual suffering from the "inventors syndrome". Unfortunately this syndrome is like a PLAGUE. It eventually results in the people having it being SHUNNED like lepers. - Mark From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 17:17:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA12549; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:06:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:06:15 -0700 Message-ID: <334C2E3B.7CA microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:33:07 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Magnets in SN SN Configuration Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------64B57D0876E4" Resent-Message-ID: <"RB4uH1.0.n33.qx2Jp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------64B57D0876E4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I have attached a Gif image of the flux contours around two magnets in a yoked and isolated SN SN config. The field contours are very different as the returning fields in the isolated example show a "Null Zone" surrounding the air gap and the yoked example shows the expected flux bulge. This is interesting as I have previously shown how two magnets in a SN NS config generate a increased flux density in the same area. I have sent a sequence of GIfs to the DNMEC list group showing how this "Null Zone" is dependent on the magnet spacing. I have verified this null zone in actual testing. The magnet are the same in both Gifs. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. 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pEPv+UzejXSWV6rjwyiXUoNq0ZrOGylH6ejQAJqUm3HjoUEHN8/J2ZSk4HvjFlm3xI56romN PKVPsbe7LrYTpUrFYhZRZjaCDu6etvziQg2ZRucBsHIBAQA7 --------------64B57D0876E4-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 17:20:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA09437; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:04:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Off-Hours Speculation Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:02:51 +0000 Message-ID: <19970410000249.AAA3837 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"LdczY.0.JJ2.nv2Jp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 1, The A-10 carrying four 500 pound bombs that disappeared a week ago in Colorado was headed for the Denver Courthouse? 2, It was using low level under-the-radar attack strategy and crashed? 3, It was shot down by the authorities? I think I will join one of those conspiracy chat groups? FJS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 17:26:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA18583; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:17:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:17:55 -0700 Message-ID: <334C315F.5459 worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 14:16:39 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: AC Clarke CF Interview References: <970408224429_76016.2701_JHC96-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mGWwX3.0.uX4.l63Jp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry - > "Clarke goes on to mention the antigravity experiments..." What antigravity experiments? Li's at Huntsville? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 17:30:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA19053; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:18:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:18:59 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:42:02 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A Travelling Field? Resent-Message-ID: <"wqFu8.0.Kf4.k73Jp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Stirniman asked... >Can someone with a copy of Feynman's lectures, please provide >an opinion about this: I don't have Feynman's books, but I think I can visualize the problem, so I will stick my neck out. >Feynman uses a relatively simple problem... Idealized and simplified problem: Infinite sheet of charge (avoid infinite fields and 3D geometry associated with point charge) Instantaneous acceleration, constant velocity (simple time dependence suitable for his purposes) >Feynman treats it all as one field, and in essence tries to show >that retardation in the local field is same effect as the travelling >field. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. However, the "retarded potentials" (local) are derived from Maxwell's equations, and they also yield travelling fields. It's just math (systematic logic) between Maxwell and the retarded potentials. Back to Feynman's choice of example. It's OK to use a simplified example to introduce a principle, as long as the example avoids internal inconsistencies. The student learns more intuitively from a simple example than from one buried in math. You can lead bright junior or average senior physics and engineering students through the point general case, but they need a good math background, and the math is quite tedious. >There are some peculiar things about Feynman's solution... > >I think the correct solution should show an impulse of E field, >which exists only at the front edge of the travelling wave, and >which is caused by the impulse acceleration of the sheet of charge. >But, the travelling wave described by an impulse of E field would >result would be an unworkable solution in the second part of Feynman's >example, where he wants to show a pulse of travelling (local) H field >which continues to flow away when the current is stopped. (a) Consider first the simpler possible problem, where the static E field is neutralized by a stationary sheet with equal and opposite charge right next to the moving sheet. Then, the travelling plane wave should begin with an impulse of electric field (parallel to the direction of sheet motion) coinciding with a step rise of H field (perpendicular to the direction of sheet motion). The pulse should be terminated by an identical step down of H and an oppositely directed (relative to the leading edge) impulse of E field. The trailing E field is created when the charge sheet is instantaneously decelerated (ie. accelerated in the opposite direction). In between, H is constant. More realistically, H rises and falls at a rapid, but finite, rate, and E exists in the layers of finite thickness where H changes. Once the wave is detached from the source, the H field is generated by the two sheets of displacement current constituted by the E field at each end, and the E field layers are induced by the changing H....just as in the more familiar sine wave case, but with different time and space dependences. (b) Now, if there is only the single charged sheet with no neutralization, then there is always a static E field normal to the sheet---before, during and after launching the pulse. (Just like the infinite sheet, one can pose the problem with the sheet having been in place and static forever before this one "experiment'. It's no worse a case than one wherein the sheet oscillated sinusoidally forever.) The complete solution is the sum of the propagating pulse of (a) above and the static field. The static field doesn't do anything and isn't interesting. Since I don't have Feynman's book, I don't know which problem he did. However, either one is OK, though. P.S. Stirniman also wrote: >Yet, I think he was unsuccessful in demonstrating it. >Maybe because it is not true? This statement is equivalent to, "I don't understand it. Therefore, everyone else is wrong." Similar statements appear frequently on Vortex. What arrogance! I hope you forgive me, Robert. You are far from being the worst offender. I just wanted to get this off my chest, and almost everyone else is venting opinion here these days... Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 18:58:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA10536; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:35:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:35:01 -0700 Message-ID: <334C4396.682F skylink.net> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 18:34:14 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A Travelling Field? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0hSMB.0.PZ2.-E4Jp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > This statement is equivalent to, "I don't understand it. Therefore, > everyone else is wrong." Similar statements appear frequently on Vortex. > What arrogance! > I hope you forgive me, Robert. You are far from being the worst offender. > I just wanted to get this off my chest, and almost everyone else is venting > opinion here these days... Well Michael, vent if you must. I don't mind particularly if you call me arrogant. It might be the height of arrogance for me to think that Feynman might have made a mistake, otherwise I would understand it. Well, at least I can honestly say that a long time was spent in study of this particular example problem prior to reaching an opinion. What I do feel angry about is that you haven't even looked at the example or Feynman's math, but you still try to present some kind of solution out of your own imagination. And you call me arrogant? Michael, if you would actually look at it you will see that he did make a mistake. In my opinion the mistake results from trying to demonstrate retardation in the local/near field along with a demonstration of the travelling wave. Can you provide any examples which demonstrate the concrete physical reality of retardation in the local/near field (i.e. proof that local electromagnetic forces are not instantaneous action-at-a-distance)? Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 20:02:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA03414; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: 09 Apr 97 22:23:07 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: AC Clarke CF Interview Message-ID: <970410022306_76016.2701_JHC109-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"W4wwB2.0.Zo.5R5Jp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Montverde (who awaits the ship with his copy of the May issue [there are advantages to not living in paradise]) asks: >>What antigravity experiments? Li's at Huntsville?<< ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Discover: What still needs to be done? Clarke: The first thing we have to do is make sure [these new forms of energy] are for real, and figure out how they can be handled or controlled. And then explore the most promising lines of research. One of the most speculative is certainly -- what do you call it? -- gravity control. Have you heard that story from Finland? Is that a fraud, or what? Discover: You mean the Finnish researchers who reported to a lessening of gravity in the vicinity of a spinning cube of superconducting material? Do you think it's a hoax? Clarke: Well, I don't know. It is a very feeble effect, but the first nuclear reactions were feeble. if it's true, though, it would open up the solar system just as the airplane opened up the planet. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I can't seem to get any definitive proof that Li is still alive. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 20:08:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA03584; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:48:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704100248.WAA02249 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <334BF2A0.7817 math.ucla.edu> (message from Barry Merriman on Wed, 09 Apr 1997 12:48:48 -0700) Subject: Re: AC Clarke CF Interview Resent-Message-ID: <"EMkcX3.0.7o.5R5Jp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Barry Merriman (barry julia.math.ucla.edu) said: > Michael Mandeville wrote: >> Jesus Christ mon, A. Clarke wrote the vision and faithfully >> propagated it for 40 years that by DIRECT CAUSATION LED DIRECTLY >> TO THE COMMUNICATIONS CAPABILITY YOU USED TO SEND THIS MESSAGE. > You mean the Nazi german and the post-WWII soviet scientists were all > reading A. Clarke? Amazing. Pontificate not on what you know not of... Clarke worked on communications (and as a member of the British Interplanetary Society) before the war, and the German and Russian rocket scientists knew of his work in rocketry thank you. But during the war he worked on primarily on radar, especially for bad weather landings. However, his 1946 paper on communication satellites was based in part on wartime discoveries about the propagation of VHF radar signals through the ionosphere. As far as I know--and in this particular area it goes pretty far--the Americans who made communications satellites a reality all were very aware of Clarke's work. (In fact one of the key players at Bell Labs was not only another science fiction author, but a good friend of Clarke's. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 21:02:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA26907; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:51:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:51:03 -0700 Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:26:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704100226.WAA02228 spectre.mitre.org> To: fstenger interlaced.net CC: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <334BD88B.5A88 interlaced.net> (fstenger@interlaced.net) Subject: Re: "Hourglass" Pinch Device Resent-Message-ID: <"ZdfPw.0.tY6.KE6Jp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Stenger said: > My trouble is I need a fat conductor to give my bank time to reach peak > current - and then I need to get rid of all that extra mass so the > plasma would have a chance to pinch. When I have time, I want to do > more runs with various dielectric baffels around the pinch neck to > force the current thru a small hole. I don't think you are going to get a pinch at such a low starting voltage no matter what you do. Can you restack your bank to get to 4+ KV? Don't worry the amperage. What you lose in charge storage you make up in rise time, so your peak current will actually rise. Second use a very thin filament. Conductivity needs to be enough for the discarge to start, but from then on most of the charge is flowing on the surface of the conductor. I've gotten pinches with spider silk dipped in saline solution and dried (at 10 KV). Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 21:05:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA26425; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:50:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:50:15 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970409192336.00a90140 aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 19:23:54 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: AC Clarke CF Interview Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"spas7.0.sR6.kD6Jp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:48 PM 4/9/97 -0700, you wrote: >Michael Mandeville wrote: >> > >> >> Jesus Christ mon, A. Clarke wrote the vision and faithfully propagated it >> for 40 years that by DIRECT CAUSATION LED DIRECTLY TO >> THE COMMUNICATIONS CAPABILITY YOU USED TO SEND THIS MESSAGE. > >You mean the Nazi german and the post-WWII soviet scientists were all >reading A. Clarke? Amazing. > > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry > > No, I mean the idea of the virtual global village using advanced communications capabilities, such as satellites. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 21:07:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA27069; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:51:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:51:25 -0700 Date: 09 Apr 97 22:14:53 EDT From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: The Viral Theory of cold fusion Message-ID: <970410021453_76570.2270_FHU41-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Zo8Dl2.0.va6.YE6Jp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vortexians; Of all the unusual theories of the persistance of cold fusion, none is more amazing than the recently published Viral Theory by war criminal Gary Taubes. In the latest R&D Magazine (April 1997, pp51-56) -- "Cold Fusion -- Science or Religion?" by David Kestenbaum, we have this passage near the end: Latest quote from Taubes in R&D April article on cold fusion: Gary Taubes, author of the encyclopedic Bad Science --The Short Life and Weird Times of Cold Fusion, says he expects that even if the PPC (Patterson Power Cell) effect is disproved, cold fusion claims will linger. "It's like the herpes simplex virus. It's always there. You just have to carry it around until it becomes enough of a nuisance that the immune system kicks in and crushes it," he says. Then it goes into hiding in your spinal column or something." Taubes should look in the mirror -- he is a virus himself, or is that a virus/maggot? Fortunately, there is strong medicine that will crush him the way he has tried to crush us -- the marketplace. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 22:11:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA22646; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:09:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: The Viral Theory of cold fusion Resent-Message-ID: <"IjeOe.0.mX5.NM7Jp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Dear Vortexians; > >Of all the unusual theories of the persistance of cold fusion, none is more >amazing than the recently published Viral Theory by war criminal Gary Taubes. > >In the latest R&D Magazine (April 1997, pp51-56) -- "Cold Fusion -- Science or >Religion?" by David Kestenbaum, we have this passage near the end: > >Latest quote from Taubes in R&D April article on cold fusion: > >Gary Taubes, author of the encyclopedic Bad Science --The Short Life and Weird >Times of Cold Fusion, says he expects that even if the PPC (Patterson Power >Cell) effect is disproved, cold fusion claims will linger. "It's like the >herpes >simplex virus. It's always there. You just have to carry it around until it >becomes enough of a nuisance that the immune system kicks in and crushes >it," he >says. Then it goes into hiding in your spinal column or something." > >Taubes should look in the mirror -- he is a virus himself, or is that a >virus/maggot? Fortunately, there is strong medicine that will crush him >the way >he has tried to crush us -- the marketplace. > >Gene Mallove Just a rhetorical question (observation): Why are there those such as "Gary Taubes" who apparently feel compelled to initiate sarcasm and ridicule against the efforts of others? It is as though Taubes feels personally 'threatened' in some way.... I am afraid that the examples set by the Taubes-types are not "humanity at its best." Support is always desired; constructive criticism certainly can be useful; but initiated sarcasm and ridicule is truly unfortunate. It does indeed seem at times that "the only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history." I applaud all creative thinkers who persist in their efforts to achieve their dreams ....... Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "In speaking of the Energy of the field, however, I wish to be understood literally. All energy is the same as mechanical energy, whether it exists in the form of motion or in that of elasticity, or in any other form. The energy in electromagnetic phenomena is _mechanical_ energy." --- JAMES CLERK MAXWELL From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 22:24:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA02993; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:15:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:15:43 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 07:52:25 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" Message-ID: <334c8031.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: "vortex" Cc: "'Dieter Britz'" Subject: Kestenbaum article? Resent-Message-ID: <"2LE392.0.qj.vT7Jp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene Mallove has quoted the Taubes part (viral theory of CF) from the paper of David Kestenbaum: "Cold Fusion- Religion or Science?" R & D Magazine April 1997 pp 51-56. Is this part relevant for the whole article? It seemed that David tried to get some direct information before writing the paper. Anyway the title-question is wrong enough, but what's David's answer? Thank you in advance, we are fighting here for survival and R & D is not available. Peter -- dr. Peter Gluck Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700 Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 01:50:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA24121; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 01:47:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 01:47:29 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:09:42 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" Message-ID: <334ca04c.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: "Peter Glueck" Subject: Re: The Viral Theory of cold fusion Resent-Message-ID: <"xVt192.0.ut5.QaAJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:07:39 -0700 (PDT), vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: Evan has asked: > Why are there those such as "Gary Taubes" who apparently feel compelled to > initiate sarcasm and ridicule against the efforts of others? It is as > though Taubes feels personally 'threatened' in some way.... This is his job; he is a professional killer or bravo, I knew it when I read "Nobel Dreams". He is paid for it, that's all. Peter -- dr. Peter Gluck Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700 Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 04:34:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA15387; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 04:32:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 04:32:51 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:32:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704101132.GAA22736 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex From: Scott Little Subject: Re: The Viral Theory of cold fusion Resent-Message-ID: <"VMw1A2.0.Lm3.Y_CJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:14 PM 4/9/97 EDT, Eugene F. Mallove wrote: >Of all the unusual theories of the persistance of cold fusion, none is more >amazing than the recently published Viral Theory by war criminal Gary Taubes. >Fortunately, there is strong medicine that will crush him the way >he has tried to crush us -- the marketplace. Very true...IF cold fusion actually makes it to (and survives in) the marketplace! Right now I am eagerly awaiting Mitchell's information on the price and delivery of a JET Energy Technology Pi-NOTCH Ni electrode. If JET is actually selling a CF device that is guaranteed to produce excess heat...and it DOES produce excess heat...then the jig is up for the likes of Taubes. -- Looking Forward to Large Excess Heat in Austin Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 06:42:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA30398; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:01:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:01:50 -0700 Message-Id: <199704100202.TAA26527 mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: claytor_t_n esa.lanl.gov X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.1.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 01:00:28 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Thomas N. Claytor" Subject: Re: Bad bead batches Resent-Message-ID: <"4C1733.0.XO7.gN6Jp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex, I agree with most of what Jed posted on this in terms of, it's not that easy to, in fact, get a CETI cell to produce prodigious amounts of heat. CETI is still writing the book on how to exactly run the cell and as of last summer had vague ideas (and still changing the exact protocol) of what worked and didn't work. Dennis came up and spent a couple of days with us, trying to coax something out of our cell, he did better at SRI and spent longer, but unless we get a watt or two out of a cell, it's not very impressive (the critics will just sneer and say it's an artifact) and can't be used to "sell the program". Various people at CETI told me last summer that they had, early on, made a very good batch of beads and this batch was the basis for all of their "demo" runs. However, when we tried to get a part of this batch for replication, no can do. It was explained that they were having problems getting other batches to be as good as the "demo" beads and they were hoarding the "demo" beads. If they are running low on good beads, I can't complain about not being able to get a good set of heat producing beads, but I think the fact that the Rifex kits aren't supposed to produce heat probably means they still can't produce decent beads, except by accident. I probably will visit them this June and see if the situation is significantly changed. Tom C. Thomas N. Claytor Los Alamos National Laboratory ESA-MT, MS C914 Los Alamos NM, 87545 505-667-6216 voice 505-665-7176 fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 06:50:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA32714; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:48:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:48:46 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970410094745_1884245527 emout13.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: What antigravity experiments? Li's at Huntsville? Resent-Message-ID: <"7Soub1.0.0_7.z-EJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Huntsville experiments are continuing. Three ceramic disks have been constructed 4", 6" and,12". Gravitational shielding has been looked for with stationary disks. No shielding has been found. The experiments will soon be repeated with rotating disks. I'm interested. I believe that there is a link between this phenomena and cold fusion. I am working on getting an invite to Marshall. I believe that Dr. Hettche at Penn State is also working on the problem. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 06:55:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA32630; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:48:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:48:21 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704100842.ZM20012 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:42:54 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Tierra and Tom Ray Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"LWf1a.0.mz7.Z-EJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts- FYI, some interesting sites about Tierra and Tom Ray: http://www.hip.atr.co.jp/~kim/tom_ray/node2.html http://www.hip.atr.co.jp/~kim/tom_ray/node3.html http://www.hip.atr.co.jp/~ray/tierra/tierra.html Get your own copy of Tierra: http://www.hip.atr.co.jp/~ray/tierra/ftp.html Other available AL programs: http://www.krl.caltech.edu/avida/ http://www.krl.caltech.edu/~charles/alife-game/ -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 08:19:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA04250; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 07:19:54 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: A VORTEX in the news Resent-Message-ID: <"YrVbJ1.0.G21.gGGJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The following was sent to me by a lurker. The vortex reference puts it beyond resistance of temptation to post: >Further to information you posted today on Vortex-List re ozone levels: >in yesterday's (One&Only) Canadian national newspaper, the Globe & Mail, >the front page news stated "Ozone Level Hits New Low Record". The news >item reports that "the ozone level last month ... over Ellesmere Island >and other areas of the northern Arctic) was the lowest ever recorded". > >The report goes on to state that "ozone values were much as 45 percent >below normal". It does not, however, provide any information (as your >posting did) as to how this compares with same time data from last year. > >Interestinly, the article states further that: > > "the dramatic drop in thickness of the ozone layer in the > Arctic caught some scientists by surprise because they > believed that the unique meteorological condition of the > Antarctic were unlikely to occur in the Canadian Arctic. > >So, it looks like some of the ozone hole 'experts' were caught napping. > >The final item in the article that might be of some added interest to you >(ie. in terms of providing an explanation for this unexpected occurrence, >and at the same time adding a delightful sense of irony) is: > > "Environment Canada reported that the depletion of Arctic > ozone layer was almost certainly caused by an unusually > strong circular flow of winds, KNOWN AS A VORTEX, similar > to what happens in the Antarctic. It is expected that the > winds will break up later this month and warmer ozone-rich > air will move into the Arctic statosphere. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 08:33:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA24867; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:30:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:30:56 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: "Hourglass" Pinch Device Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:10:03 +0000 Message-ID: <19970410111001.AAA25372 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"kQC-81.0.h26.OUGJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:26 AM 4/10/97 +0000, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > Frank Stenger said: > > > My trouble is I need a fat conductor to give my bank time to reach peak > > current - and then I need to get rid of all that extra mass so the > > plasma would have a chance to pinch. When I have time, I want to do > > more runs with various dielectric baffels around the pinch neck to > > force the current thru a small hole. > > I don't think you are going to get a pinch at such a low starting >voltage no matter what you do. I don't know about this at higher pressures in hydrogen-steam, Robert. Guy Suits was surprised to see thin "filaments" gotten with hydrogen-steam even at atmospheric pressure with 1,000 to 1,500 volts. Under the same conditions with the heavier gases the arc was around a centimeter diameter. Can you restack your bank to get to 4+ >KV? Don't worry the amperage. What you lose in charge storage you >make up in rise time, so your peak current will actually rise. > > Second use a very thin filament. Conductivity needs to be enough >for the discarge to start, but from then on most of the charge is >flowing on the surface of the conductor. I've gotten pinches with >spider silk dipped in saline solution and dried (at 10 KV). > > > Robert I. Eachus > >with Standard_Disclaimer; >use Standard_Disclaimer; >function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 08:37:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA24768; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:30:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:30:43 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: fstenger interlaced.net From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: "Hourglass" Pinch Device Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:51:46 +0000 Message-ID: <19970410105143.AAA22168 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"VeS7C.0.s16.JUGJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:08 AM 4/10/97 +0000, Frank Stenger wrote: >Frederick wrote: >> >(snip) > >> I = V*(C/L)^1/2 = ~315,000 amps peak, pinch pressure I^2/200*Pi*r^2 >> dynes/cm^2. So you only had about 1.6 atmospheres of pinch pressure,true? Goofed! (2E5)^2/[200*Pi*(.15)^2] = 2.83E9 dyne/cm^2 = 2.83E3 Atm. > >Check me here, Frederick: > >I use MKS units, and start with the expression for B around a line >current as: > B = (mu_0 * i)/(2*Pi*r) tesla for MKS units. >If mu_0 = 4*Pi*10^-7, > > B = (2*10^-7)*(i/r) tesla for i in amps, r in meters. > >If we put i in kiloamps, and r in milimeters, we get the cute little >equation: > B = 0.2 * i/r tesla. > >Now, I had some resistance and more inductance than you assumed(I think) >so my current peaked at about 200 kiloamps. My copper link neck had an >r of about 1.5 mm so: > > B = 0.2 * 200/1.5 = 26.7 tesla at the conductor surface > >I use magnetic pressure, P, given by: > > P = 3.93 * B^2 atmospheres for B in teslas. > >So, my pressure, P = 3.93 * 26.7^2 = 2802 atmospheres > = 41,189 psi. >If you're right, I'm wayyyy wrong! Nope, you are right on the money.I pushed the wrong buttons on the storage registers, Twice. :-( >> > > >> >> What do you use to dump the capacitor bank? > >If you mean what kind of switch I use, it's very cheap but I have to do >a bit of machining for each shot. I use two squat aluminum cylinders >with rounded corners (to avoid crimping the plastic) separated by a >sheet of about 4-mil polyethylene. The cylinders are gently clamped >on the plastic with 4 long, insulated bolts. The switch runs with the >cylinder axes vertical - the top cylinder has a 1/8 in. dia. hole >drilled along its centerline. To fire the switch I drop a weighted >aluminum needle thru the top cylinder (solenoid release) to puncture >the plastic. When the needle contacts the bottom cylinder, the initial >arc explosion more or less "spot welds" the cylinders together to >further close the circuit. I probably lose less than 1000 joules in >the switch - out of about 60,000 total so it's not too bad. Not bad. I sure hate to see you use up that 3" aluminum barstock though. Ain't as easy as a mercury switch, is it? A Hydrogen Thyratron switch for fast pulsing, perhaps? But, don't put any "Catalyst" in it or you might be infringing on someone's patent. > >Frank S. > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 08:37:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA25531; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:32:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:32:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:31:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Question, Solar Flare and Hale-Bop Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"F-qdX3.0.dD6.tVGJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortex, Surely all that matter heading out from the sun at high speed will turn Hale-Bop into something less of a flop. Its hard to see now in London. We've had several days of 'spring' weather and the freshness is gone, its humid and hazy now. It was the first time I'd seen a comet, yes good tail and core - quite pretty. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 08:43:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA09846 for billb@eskimo.com; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:54:02 -0700 Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:54:02 -0700 X-Envelope-From: mica world.std.com Wed Apr 9 22:51:04 1997 Received: from mail.eskimo.com (root mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA09680 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:50:43 -0700 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA14477 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA14230; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mica.world.std.com (world.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01927; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:49:51 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970410044830.006ed670 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_860662110==_" Old-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:48:30 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Littles KS Curves X-Attachments: C:\LITTLEks1invCRP1.jpg; X-Diagnostic: Submission size exceeds 40000 bytes X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: --=====================_860662110==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I pointed out to Scott Little that KS beads results which he posted on the Internet MIGHT HAVE had the appearance of xs heat in the lowest drive level, and that his observed fall-off of xsh (excess heat) was characteristic of the pi-notch reported by me in Fusion Technology. Any person here is invited to look for themselves at Scotts KS data, too. A cropped, blown-up, reversed image of Scotts data is appended UU encoded here. Hopefully Scott might send me your data of curves Pflow and Pin f(t) or plot himself Pflow as function of Pin, and share that set of data points. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) --=====================_860662110==_ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="LITTLEks1invCRP1.jpg"; x-mac-type="4A504547"; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="LITTLEks1invCRP1.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAUDBAQEAwUEBAQFBQUGBwwIBwcHBw8LCwkMEQ8SEhEP ERETFhwXExQaFRERGCEYGh0dHx8fExciJCIeJBweHx7/2wBDAQUFBQcGBw4ICA4eFBEUHh4eHh4e Hh4eHh4eHh4eHh4eHh4eHh4eHh4eHh4eHh4eHh4eHh4eHh4eHh4eHh4eHh7/wAARCAEMAdMDASIA AhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQA AAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3 ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWm p6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAHwEA AwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREAAgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSEx BhJBUQdhcRMiMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAVYnLRChYkNOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2Nzg5OkNERUZHSElK 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mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA09906 for billb@eskimo.com; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:54:45 -0700 Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:54:45 -0700 X-Envelope-From: mica world.std.com Wed Apr 9 22:51:40 1997 Received: from mail.eskimo.com (root mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA09709 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:51:02 -0700 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA14308 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA14166; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:49:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mica.world.std.com (world.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01315; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:48:50 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970410044728.006feb18 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_860662048==_" Old-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:47:28 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Vortex appropriate?---was: Can't eat oil X-Attachments: C:\LITTLEks1invCRP1.jpg; X-Diagnostic: Submission size exceeds 40000 bytes X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_860662048==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:24 PM 4/8/97 -0500, Scott wrote: >Hey Mitchell, we're on the same side! OK. People on my side read the literature and don't limit what others can speak about. =============================================== > I'm trying to reduce the amount of >overhead in this discussion group and you're increasing it with useless >nit-picking. > Scott, you are projecting because YOU were inaccurate in YOUR nit-picking. I just agreed with you. ================================================ >> Since Scott has not made a single CF phenomenon work... > >We're working hard to correct that situation. We have tried a number of >experiments in the past and we have not given up. We now have the CETI >Rifex kit going, and a Ragland triode replication (OK, >Jed..."approximation") is running in the dual-method calorimeter right now. > Good for you. Your thermometric, calorimetric, and data reduction setup will be carefully tested as to what you measure compared with what Miley and Ragland have reported. Hope you make that first tier of actually repeating someone's experiment. ================================================ >>CF is reproducible, and if Scott might actually check the literature >>out for a change, he would see this is true. He might also improve the >>accuracy of his own comments, measurements and observations. >The accuracy of my own measurements is quite sufficient to observe the >reported effects. As you can see from the description of our dual-method >calorimeter, we can reliably see as little as 0.1 watts of excess heat from >an experiment running in the 0-1 watt total input range. Above that level, >we typically obtain 2-5% relative accuracy up to the capacity of this >calorimeter which is around 15-20 watts. Your calorimeter has problems some of which I shared with you by private email. That includes the appearance of significant sensitivity of something during the time the input did not change. Given that, see KS1 curves for example, given the outputs which are not rock steady even in the calibration ("sim excess heat"), because only the blue curve (Pflow) is even close without significant time delay, and because of other reasons (vide infra), those numbers might be looked at closer. =================================================== >We would be delighted to run one of your cells in this calorimeter, >Mitchell, and publish a detailed report of our findings for all to see. > Thanks for the offer. Our results are published. We have also published data confirming others electrodes. Hopefully someday, your own calorimetry will become more serious with more reasonable measurements of noise, and adequate initial baselines (which you may have had, but did not post on the Internet with the curves which you did post), and a closer look at what you did measure. ======================================================= >> >> Hope that helps. > >For some reason, I doubt the sincerity of this last statement. > You are quite wrong again. I do hope it helps, and have been working to help this field for quite a few years. Where have you been? However, Scott, your own inaccuracy, your putting down of the field of cold fusion and attempting to substitute ZPE (quite reminiscent of project "Blue Book"), your hope to be "testing board" of the field without your reading every paper in the literature, or having even achieved one positive cf experiment makes one suspect your own sincerity, Scott. Corroborating that, furthermore and consistent with my attempts to help, Scott, I pointed out to you that KS beads results which YOU posted on the Internet MIGHT HAVE had the appearance of xs heat in the lowest drive level, and that your observed fall-off of very low level xsh (excess heat) may have been characteristic of the pi-notch reported by me in Fusion Technology (Jan '97 issue). Although I pointed this out to you, and asked you a series of questions, you did not appear to really look closer. Suggest you do again. Any person here is invited to look for themselves at your KS data, too. A cropped, blown-up, reversed image of Scotts data which hopefully is appended with the post. (have tried but unable to post 2x) It would be nice if Scott could take us through the regions of the curve. Scott, perhaps you might send me your data of curves Pflow and Pin or plot yourself Pflow as function of Pin, and share that set of data points. Thanks in advance. Best wishes. 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mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA09571; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:33:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:33:07 -0700 Date: 10 Apr 97 08:55:12 EDT From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Hot and Cold Fusion on NPR - 4/11/97 Message-ID: <970410125512_76570.2270_FHU46-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"_wKjL1.0.TL2.HHIJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians: MEDIA ALERT This Friday, April 11,1997 from 2:00 to 3:00 pm, US East Coast Time, Ira Flatow's "Science Friday, Talk of the Nation" will feature two different perspectives: Hot fusion: Dr. T. Kenneth Fowler, author of The Fusion Quest (Johns Hopkins Press, 1997) Cold Fusion: Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief of Infinite Energy Magazine: Cold Fusion and New Energy Technology, also author of Fire from Ice: Searching for the Truth Behind the Cold Fusion Furor (John Wiley & Sons, 1989) Dr. Fowler will be on during the first 1/2 hour. Dr. Mallove during the second 1/2 hour. It is noteworthy that Fowler was one of the members of the DOE ERAB Cold Fusion Panel in 1989 which rendered a negative conclusion against cold fusion within several months of the Utah announcement, even as evidence supporting the phenomenon was mounting. Later, Nobel Laureate Norman Ramsey, advised by Julian Schwinger and others, tried to resign from the panel because he disagreed with its intended 100% negative conclusion. Since that time, the scientific evidence for excess heat and nuclear products has built up to a very high level and commercialization has already begun. The ads for Fowler's book state that cold fusion is an "illusion." In "The Fusion Quest" Fowler makes this remark (among other anti-cold fusion statements): "Though a few scientists and a coterie of other enthusiasts have continued to claim otherwise, as far as I can tell the overall conclusion that cold fusion is an illusion still prevails, though I confess *I have not been motivated to pay much attention lately*." "Not motivated to pay much attention lately..."? Amazing. Thus, by the standards prevailing today for comments against cold fusion, he thinks he is qualified to remark negatively on cold fusion. We shall see, this Friday. Please tune in to your local NPR affiliate station. Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. P.O, Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 INTERNET:76570.2270 compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JedRothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 10:41:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA09840; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:35:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:35:04 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: "Hourglass" Pinch Device Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:13:45 +0000 Message-ID: <19970410171343.AAA17613 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"gN4BL2.0.cP2.8JIJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank: At 02:26 AM 4/10/97 +0000 Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >A Hydrogen Thyratron switch for fast pulsing,perhaps? >But, don't put any "Catalyst" in it or you might be infringing >on someone's patent. Actually the "switch" is where you can kill two birds with one stone. If you let the alternating current charge the capacitor bank so that you can "fire" the Hydrogen-Deuterium Thyratron when you want on any positive part of the A.C. cycle, or on as many positive cycles as you want, you can play with the geometry of the electrodes, pressure in the thyratron,and the electron emitter in the Thyratron to get the Pinch configuration that you seek. Then, if you throw in some Neon, Argon, Nitrogen, or Carbon, as a "Catalyst", (Deuteromethane or Deuteropropane?) to get some "Light Electron-Positron" pairs generated, you Might be in business. Sounds easy, doesnt it? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 10:41:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA10460; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:39:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:39:22 -0700 Message-ID: <334D2099.565A worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 07:17:16 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: AC Clarke CF Interview References: <970410022306_76016.2701_JHC109-2 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nMKzh2.0.MZ2.9NIJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry - > I can't seem to get any definitive proof that Li is still alive. Maybe Simon Templar's puttin' the moves on her in some secret location. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 10:54:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA12269; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:51:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:51:32 -0700 Message-ID: <334D26F0.B8C worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 07:44:21 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What antigravity experiments? Li's at Huntsville? References: <970410094745_1884245527 emout13.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"D1jVu.0.d_2.ZYIJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank - > The Huntsville experiments are continuing. Three > ceramic disks have been constructed 4", 6" > and,12". Gravitational shielding has been looked > for with stationary disks. No shielding has been > found. The experiments will soon be repeated with > rotating disks. Thanks for the update. If these experiments fail to discover the effect reported from Finland, I wonder if this will go away, or continue on forever in some sort of urban legend status. I have doubts that there is a link, as you said, between this and CF. CF is a proven, replicated effect, but the gravity shielding effect is essentially a one-off result reported by one individual, as far as we know at this time. Schnurer and Evans also claim a result, but no one has been able to duplicate their work either, and the setups were far simpler to do than the Finland experiment. Just being skeptical (but hopeful) until the evidence arrives. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 11:16:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA15852 for billb@eskimo.com; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:16:46 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:16:46 -0700 X-Envelope-From: merrigan ee.ualberta.ca Thu Apr 10 11:16:44 1997 Received: from nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca (daemon nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca [129.128.68.10]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA15807 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:16:37 -0700 Received: from merrigan.remote.ucs.ualberta.ca (async16-3.remote.ualberta.ca) by nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca with SMTP (1.39.111.2/15.6) id AA136286190; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:16:30 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970410105419.0081c420 nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca> X-Sender: merrigan nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Old-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:54:19 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Shaun P. Merrigan" Subject: Re: A Travelling Field? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > This statement is equivalent to, "I don't understand it. Therefore, > everyone else is wrong." Similar statements appear frequently on Vortex. > What arrogance! > I hope you forgive me, Robert. You are far from being the worst offender. > I just wanted to get this off my chest, and almost everyone else is venting > opinion here these days... Well Michael, vent if you must. I don't mind particularly if you call me arrogant. It might be the height of arrogance for me to think that Feynman might have made a mistake, otherwise I would understand it. Well, at least I can honestly say that a long time was spent in study of this particular example problem prior to reaching an opinion. What I do feel angry about is that you haven't even looked at the example or Feynman's math, but you still try to present some kind of solution out of your own imagination. And you call me arrogant? Michael, if you would actually look at it you will see that he did make a mistake. In my opinion the mistake results from trying to demonstrate retardation in the local/near field along with a demonstration of the travelling wave. Can you provide any examples which demonstrate the concrete physical reality of retardation in the local/near field (i.e. proof that local electromagnetic forces are not instantaneous action-at-a-distance)? Regards, Robert Stirniman Shaun P. Merrigan Electrical Engineering Student University of Alberta Edmonton, Alberta, Canada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 11:16:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA15899 for billb@eskimo.com; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:16:56 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:16:56 -0700 X-Envelope-From: merrigan ee.ualberta.ca Thu Apr 10 11:16:53 1997 Received: from nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca (daemon nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca [129.128.68.10]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA15808 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:16:39 -0700 Received: from merrigan.remote.ucs.ualberta.ca (async16-3.remote.ualberta.ca) by nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca with SMTP (1.39.111.2/15.6) id AA136346192; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:16:32 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970410105419.0081d8f0 nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca> X-Sender: merrigan nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Old-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:54:19 -0600 To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" From: "Shaun P. Merrigan" Subject: Re: AC Clarke CF Interview Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: Rick Montverde (who awaits the ship with his copy of the May issue [there are advantages to not living in paradise]) asks: >>What antigravity experiments? Li's at Huntsville?<< ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Discover: What still needs to be done? Clarke: The first thing we have to do is make sure [these new forms of energy] are for real, and figure out how they can be handled or controlled. And then explore the most promising lines of research. One of the most speculative is certainly -- what do you call it? -- gravity control. Have you heard that story from Finland? Is that a fraud, or what? Discover: You mean the Finnish researchers who reported to a lessening of gravity in the vicinity of a spinning cube of superconducting material? Do you think it's a hoax? Clarke: Well, I don't know. It is a very feeble effect, but the first nuclear reactions were feeble. if it's true, though, it would open up the solar system just as the airplane opened up the planet. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I can't seem to get any definitive proof that Li is still alive. Terry Shaun P. Merrigan Electrical Engineering Student University of Alberta Edmonton, Alberta, Canada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 11:17:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA15937 for billb@eskimo.com; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:16:58 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:16:58 -0700 X-Envelope-From: merrigan ee.ualberta.ca Thu Apr 10 11:16:54 1997 Received: from nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca (daemon nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca [129.128.68.10]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA15857 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:16:49 -0700 Received: from merrigan.remote.ucs.ualberta.ca (async16-3.remote.ualberta.ca) by nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca with SMTP (1.39.111.2/15.6) id AA136406194; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:16:34 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970410121524.00815af0 nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca> X-Sender: merrigan nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Old-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:15:24 -0600 To: fstenger interlaced.net From: "Shaun P. Merrigan" Subject: Re: "Hourglass" Pinch Device Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: At 03:08 AM 4/10/97 +0000, Frank Stenger wrote: >Frederick wrote: >> >(snip) > >> I = V*(C/L)^1/2 = ~315,000 amps peak, pinch pressure I^2/200*Pi*r^2 >> dynes/cm^2. So you only had about 1.6 atmospheres of pinch pressure,true? Goofed! (2E5)^2/[200*Pi*(.15)^2] = 2.83E9 dyne/cm^2 = 2.83E3 Atm. > >Check me here, Frederick: > >I use MKS units, and start with the expression for B around a line >current as: > B = (mu_0 * i)/(2*Pi*r) tesla for MKS units. >If mu_0 = 4*Pi*10^-7, > > B = (2*10^-7)*(i/r) tesla for i in amps, r in meters. > >If we put i in kiloamps, and r in milimeters, we get the cute little >equation: > B = 0.2 * i/r tesla. > >Now, I had some resistance and more inductance than you assumed(I think) >so my current peaked at about 200 kiloamps. My copper link neck had an >r of about 1.5 mm so: > > B = 0.2 * 200/1.5 = 26.7 tesla at the conductor surface > >I use magnetic pressure, P, given by: > > P = 3.93 * B^2 atmospheres for B in teslas. > >So, my pressure, P = 3.93 * 26.7^2 = 2802 atmospheres > = 41,189 psi. >If you're right, I'm wayyyy wrong! Nope, you are right on the money.I pushed the wrong buttons on the storage registers, Twice. :-( >> > > >> >> What do you use to dump the capacitor bank? > >If you mean what kind of switch I use, it's very cheap but I have to do >a bit of machining for each shot. I use two squat aluminum cylinders >with rounded corners (to avoid crimping the plastic) separated by a >sheet of about 4-mil polyethylene. The cylinders are gently clamped >on the plastic with 4 long, insulated bolts. The switch runs with the >cylinder axes vertical - the top cylinder has a 1/8 in. dia. hole >drilled along its centerline. To fire the switch I drop a weighted >aluminum needle thru the top cylinder (solenoid release) to puncture >the plastic. When the needle contacts the bottom cylinder, the initial >arc explosion more or less "spot welds" the cylinders together to >further close the circuit. I probably lose less than 1000 joules in >the switch - out of about 60,000 total so it's not too bad. Not bad. I sure hate to see you use up that 3" aluminum barstock though. Ain't as easy as a mercury switch, is it? A Hydrogen Thyratron switch for fast pulsing, perhaps? But, don't put any "Catalyst" in it or you might be infringing on someone's patent. > >Frank S. > Regards, Frederick Shaun P. Merrigan Electrical Engineering Student University of Alberta Edmonton, Alberta, Canada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 11:25:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA03930; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: 10 Apr 97 12:36:10 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Bad bead batches Message-ID: <970410163610_72240.1256_EHB100-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"ixJcB3.0.Jz.rxIJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I am sorry, but I do not follow Bob Horst's algebra. I will briefly correct some of the values he has assigned to the variables. WHERE x = percent good batches of beads b = given a good batch, percentage of beads that work c = given a good batch, percentage of cells that work Bob writes: It seems like you are interpreting CETIs remarks to mean: x = .95 No, it was much less than .50 years ago. I do not know what it is today. c = 1 Correct. In a good batch, all correctly made cells that are run according to instructions work. From a bad batch, none work. The batch is the single best performance predictor. That is not to say you can't make a dumb mistake and destroy a milliliter sample of good beads. I interpret CETIs remarks to mean: x = unknown (they just throw away bad batches with cell flaking) Oh no! I am sure they do not simply throw them away. And I am sure they know which percent of the batches work. I do not know. I haven't asked. c = .95 Yes, it is something like that. Performance is highly uniform within a batch. My hypothesis is that f is actually a function of both the number of good beads as well as other factors, such as the geometry of the cell and the way the reaction is started. Well, geometry is important, along with other factors like temperature, cleanliness, and the pressure of the springs holding the bead pack together. This function "f" is complicated. Geometry contributed to the destruction of the first big cell after several weeks. I do not think they have done much work systematically changing the geometry. McKubre and Patterson disagree about what would constitute optimum geometry. Both of these would be important if a chain reaction is involved. I do not think CF is a chain reaction except insofar as the heat from a microscopic CF reaction heats the entire cathode, and this heat promotes the reaction. If you could remove the heat instantly, this would not happen. In other words, I do not think it is a direct chain reaction, like fission. Tom Claytor writes: . . . unless we get a watt or two out of a cell, it's not very impressive. Well, if you want more than a watt or two, use more than a milliliter or two of beads. The heat is somewhat proportional to the mass of beads. Actually, a large mass of beads will self-heat more, so it will produce proportionally more heat, unless it gets too hot and self-destructs. Various people at CETI told me last summer that they had, early on, made a very good batch of beads and this batch was the basis for all of their "demo" runs. Yes, that is what they said at ILNER. However, when we tried to get a part of this batch for replication, no can do. It was explained that they were having problems getting other batches to be as good as the "demo" beads and they were hoarding the "demo" beads. Sigh . . . I think it is a mistake to "hoard" to this extent. To be blunt, I think that when one of the world's top CF scientists asks for a sample to be tested at America's preeminent physics lab, you would have to be crazy not to hand over your last milliliter. I suspect the decision to hoard has more to do with politics and the Business Strategy than a shortage. In any case, George Miley's group has been producing batches with greater success and better batch-to-batch replicability than CETI did on their own. Miley said that almost all of these batches produced heat. I cannot imagine why they have not shared some of these beads. If they are running low on good beads, I can't complain about not being able to get a good set of heat producing beads, but I think the fact that the Rifex kits aren't supposed to produce heat probably means they still can't produce decent beads, except by accident. I don't think so, but who knows? How could they be running out, when U. Illinois has made fresh batches? Based on my frequent, acrimonious discussions of the Business Strategy with CETI, I think the Rifex kits aren't supposed to produce heat because CETI does not want the world at large to know that CF makes heat. The Strategy calls for a low profile and limited replications of the work. That is what they have told me on numerous occasions. I find this nearly inconceivable, but as I have often pointed out, smart people have used similar strategies in the past. Charles Flint, one of the smartest businessmen in U.S. history, tried to market the airplane for two years with a similar strategy. I probably will visit them this June and see if the situation is significantly changed. I sincerely hope it will be. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 11:34:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA18006; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:31:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:31:12 -0700 Message-ID: <334D31C3.3681 worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:30:37 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Wham-O: more than vortex? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tLFmg.0.GP4.l7JJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Speaking of a vortex... Any of my fellow aging boomers out there have enough brain cells left to recall whether or not the Whamo-O Sonic Air Blaster really produced a noticable infrasonic wave train in addition to the obvious toroid smoke-ring type of air puff? I remember being interested in this question as a kid, and I think candle flames sometimes did quiver right when the gun went off, long before they were snuffed out by the later-arriving and more powerful vortex of air. I think this would only work well in units that weren't worn out, where the diaphragm was free to shudder in a resonant way. When they would fire with a single strong pulse with weak or no reverberation, all you'd really get was the vortex. I seem to recall that feeling this effect on my face when someone would shoot the S.A.B. at me was a little like what happens when that nothing that makes that phunny shuddering sonic boom flies overhead. Wubba-wubbawubba.... - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 11:41:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA04027; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: 10 Apr 97 12:35:57 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Little's Ragland replication Message-ID: <970410163556_72240.1256_EHB100-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"PB-kf2.0.o-.9yIJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I spoke with Evan Ragland yesterday. Mainly we discussed the verification tests we are now working on. These tests have been delayed by problems fabricating some cell components. We also discussed the replication that Scott Little is working on. Ragland pointed out a number of crucial differences between his experiment and Little's. These may explain why Little's cell has not produced excess heat. Let me summarize the main points: 1. Ragland uses 0.1 molar LiOD, Little started with 0.2, and he later added more lithium. 2. Ragland's cathode is mounted in a cut-out in a sheet of plastic insulating material. Teflon is best, nylon will do, as long as it resists oxidation. This acts as a shield, making a long electrical path between the two anodes. Little has no sheet, so the anodes are, in effect, connected via the electrolyte. They are not at different voltages. The triode effect is lost. Especially with highly conductive electrolyte. 3. Little made the electrolyte with lithium that had been stored in oil. He found it difficult to clean the lithium. Ragland uses lithium hydroxide reagent. That puts a small amount of hydrogen in the heavy water, but it is clean and hydrogen always gets in anyway during the course of the experiment, because heavy water is hygroscopic. (I would have spend all morning for that word "hygroscopic," if Chris hadn't rescued me.) 4. Ragland used much more platinum in his anodes. The ratio of anode to cathode is critical in these experiments. Fleischmann and others have told me it is better to have too much anode than not enough. The important thing is to cover the entire cathode surface with an electric field. 5. Little's anodes are not equidistant from the cathode. I expect this will produce uneven loading. 6. Little reported wide voltage swings and sudden changes. Ragland and Tinsley both said this sounds like the result of a loose connection. 7. Little did not discuss this but Ragland would like to remind him to insulate the cathode and anode lead wires. I think it is essential that a replication be as close to the original experiment as possible. This may not be a problem, but I hope that Little has taken great care in selecting and preparing the cathode. Materials are the most important aspect of a cold fusion experiment, and the cathode is the most important material. Ragland and I did not discuss Little's method of selecting a good palladium foil, or his surface preparation. I am not yet at liberty to describe Ragland's methods. But the usual methods are described in the Storms paper "How to Produce the Pons-Fleischmann Effect." I hope Little has followed them. It would be difficult to perform all of these procedures as carefully as Storms himself does. If you condense the paper into a recipe, it begins: "1. Get a hundred pieces of palladium . . ." That step alone would cost approximately $25,000 and I doubt Little has that kind of money. The other steps take months when you triage 100 samples. I doubt Little has the time. On one hand, I'd like to encourage him to do the experiment as best he can even without these elaborate protocols. People did succeed in producing the CF effect before Cravens, Storms, Fleischmann and others spelled out these recipes. Most of the people who succeeded were experienced electrochemists like Bockris, Mizuno and McKubre, who performed many of these steps as a matter of course. Unfortunately, their success rate was low. Unless you characterize and prepare the material, the experiment is a shot in the dark. It is kind of a waste of time. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 12:10:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA23108; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:04:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:04:10 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:06:30 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Proposed Patent Law Changes Resent-Message-ID: <"uUnlr2.0.we5.fcJJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gary DePietro was kind enough to bring the following to my attention. While I don't necessary agree with every word in the statement, I did want to bring this posting to everyone's attention since these proposed changes could impact many on this List. -- Evan Soule' From: KENNETH WHITE, President VIRGINIA TAXPAYERS ASSOCIATION P. O. BOX 663 LYNCHBURG, VA 24505 TEL./FAX NO.:(804) 277-5255 Email: KWhite9472 aol.com 4/9/97 5:15 p.m. EST PLEASE CONTACT YOUR CONGRESSMAN IMMEDIATELY! COPY AND CIRCULATE WIDELY ! HR 400, the deliberately misnamed 21st Century Patent System "Improvement Act," is being rushed through Congress and could have a final vote in the House as early as NEXT WEEK, beginning April 14 ! Accepted by a House Judiciary subcommittee just on February 27, HR 400 which more properly should be called the Steal American Technology Act, was reported out to the House floor by the full Judiciary Committee March 12 by voice vote! HR 400 would forever destroy our matchless job-creating patent system. It mandates that 18 months after application date, every detail of the patent will be published *even if the patent has not been issued*. Powerful multinational companies want HR 400 so they can simply grab new ideas and use them against the actual inventors through long and expensive legal tie-ups which the individual inventors just cannot afford. Thus individuals' incentive to seek patents, which are essential to keep our economy functioning, would be destroyed, since it now often takes 20 months or more to get a patent! The multinationals and their lobbyists are the same ones that forced disastrous NAFTA and WTO agreements through Congress against broad popular opposition. The multinationals are the same ones who have been pushing our one-sided trade with China and are supporting the dangerous Red Chinese takeover of our U. S. naval base in Long Beach, Cal. With so many of our factories having been shipped overseas to low-wage countries by these large stateless corporations, sucking money and jobs out of our economy, one of the only advantages the U. S. still has left over our international competition is our unique job-creating patent system. HR 400 would make our patent office into a new government corporation which could accept contributions and have offices abroad, thus inviting outside influence and graft, since patent examiners would no longer be civil service employees. HR 400 is what the competitive Japanese want, since it would harmonize our patent system with theirs, and make American creative ideas more easily available to them! For further details on HR 400, contact its leading opponent in Congress: Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, (R-Cal.), tel.: (202) 225-2415. This is your last chance to stop HR 400 before big media silence and unresponsive Senate see to it that this bill quickly reaches President Clinton's desk for his waiting signature! Contact your congressman now, and tell him to vote AGAINST HR 400! KENNETH WHITE President From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 12:53:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA30584; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:45:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:45:18 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: "Hourglass" Pinch Device Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:44:35 +0000 Message-ID: <19970410194433.AAA22259 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"KilLx1.0.oT7.DDKJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: Thyratron Electrode Configuration: + |<--- Anode | | \ | / \--|-- / \ / \ / \/ /\<---- Pinch Zone / \ / \----- <---- "Hourglass" Grid /--|-- \ / | \ | | |<---- Emitter (cathode) Principle of operation: A negative voltage on the grid traps electrons from the emitter in the lower cone and shields the anode from the cathode until the capacitor bank is charged to the desired positive potential. When the grid is made less negative by a control pulse it allows the electrons to move toward the anode initiating the discharge. The Graphite or other such refractory grid channels the arc into the constriction setting up the "pinch". The pinch current sets up a magnetic field around itself establishing a field E = d(phi)/dt which can act as a particle accelerator force, F,external to the pinch; F = q* d(phi)/dt, thus providing high velocity particles at modest capacitor potentials. I think. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 13:19:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA02972; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:14:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:14:50 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" (by way of "Frederick J. Sparber" ) Subject: Re: "Hourglass" Pinch Device Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:12:31 +0000 Message-ID: <19970410201229.AAA2684 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"haaTZ2.0.Lk.veKJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:04 PM 4/10/97 +0000, Frank Stenger wrote: >Frederick wrote: >> >> >> Actually the "switch" is where you can kill two birds with one stone. >> >> If you let the alternating current charge the capacitor bank so that >> you can "fire" the Hydrogen-Deuterium Thyratron when you want on >> any positive part of the A.C. cycle, or on as many positive cycles as >> you want, you can play with the geometry of the electrodes, pressure >> in the thyratron,and the electron emitter in the Thyratron to get the >> Pinch configuration that you seek. > >Gee, Frederick, out here on the farm we move a lot slower! >Let's see, my 1500 VDC capacitor charger is probably good for about >500 watts. So, to put 60,000 joules into the cap. bank would take at >least 60,000/500 = 120 seconds = 2 minutes. I realy take much longer >than this to monitor various "safety" provisions on the bank. >Since the bank is made up of 48 parallel caps X 3 48's in series = 144 >caps, I have safety relays to sense a shorted capacitor in one of the >groups and shut down the charge. The total energy is roughly equal to >that in 7 or 8 12-gage shotgun rounds - all in my 24 X 32 ft. garage. >I leave the garage during final charge (I have had 2 or 3 capacitor >failures at charge - small explosions - not too bad) and for the firing. > >No test loads have lived through one discharge - much less several. >If a test load has roughly the resistance of a 2 cm length of #12 copper >wire (0.000135 ohms) it will probably explode - if it has a lot more, >the peak current will be lower. The tendency for fluid conductors to >pinch down before they explode is great - during explosion plasma >pressure rules. However, when I can get back to the lab (garage) I will >need to rethink my approach. > >Frank S. > I watched a few firings of "Scyllac" at Los Alamos back in the 70's. The had a "countdown" as the capacitor bank charged up to 50 kilovolts then BANG, they dumped almost a farad (about 200 capacitors the size of a Jerrycan)! Getting all those capacitors and spark gap switches together so that the inductance was kept low was a neat bit of engineering. Seems that you are getting close there Frank. I think you could lower the capacitance to spread out that energy. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 13:32:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA04375; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:24:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:24:00 -0700 Date: 10 Apr 97 16:19:29 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Proposed Patent Law Changes Message-ID: <970410201928_72240.1256_EHB139-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"zeBEX3.0.H41.VnKJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Kenneth White reported: HR 400 would forever destroy our matchless job-creating patent system. It mandates that 18 months after application date, every detail of the patent will be published *even if the patent has not been issued*. If that's true, it is wonderful news. It will enforce the kind of openness and rapid decision making that cold fusion and other o-u energy R&D needs. Inventors will no longer sit on valuable technology for years, depriving the world of potential benefits. They might resent it, but this is the best thing that could happen to the inventors themselves. People often resent being forced to act in their own best interests. The auto companies fought to prevent auto safety improvement legislation, until they realized that safety sells and dead customers don't buy new cars. Powerful multinational companies want HR 400 so they can simply grab new ideas and use them against the actual inventors through long and expensive legal tie-ups which the individual inventors just cannot afford. Powerful multinational companies file more patents than individual inventors do, and the economic value of the corporate patents is far greater. It looks like the Big Guys want to steal from one another. Why should we care if Compaq steals from IBM? HR 400 is what the competitive Japanese want, since it would harmonize our patent system with theirs, and make American creative ideas more easily available to them! Well, if the Japanese and European systems already work this way, it seems only fair that we should conform. They have already made their ideas easily available to us, so why shouldn't we open up to them? In spite of its recent economic doldrums, Japan still does better R&D than the U.S., and it produces more innovative cost-effective consumer products than we do. Anything that promotes openness is to our advantage, because we have more to learn from them than they do from us. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 14:00:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA09597; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:53:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:53:13 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: "Hourglass" Pinch Device Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:52:29 +0000 Message-ID: <19970410205227.AAA23704 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"PGnPb3.0.pL2.uCLJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: One might be able to stay with the liquid electrolyte "Hourglass" approach, if a ceramic "shutter" can be closed while the capacitor bank is charging up. The shutter could be driven by a a motor or fast-acting solenoid synchronized with the charging circuitry. What do you think Frank? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 15:41:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA09906; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:34:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Proposed Patent Law Changes Resent-Message-ID: <"ka5KD.0.gQ2.HgMJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To: Vortex > >Kenneth White reported: > > HR 400 would forever destroy our matchless job-creating patent system. > It mandates that 18 months after application date, every detail of the > patent will be published *even if the patent has not been issued*. > >If that's true, it is wonderful news. It will enforce the kind of openness and >rapid decision making that cold fusion and other o-u energy R&D needs. >Inventors will no longer sit on valuable technology for years, depriving the >world of potential benefits. They might resent it, but this is the best thing >that could happen to the inventors themselves. People often resent being >forced to act in their own best interests. The auto companies fought to >prevent auto safety improvement legislation, until they realized that safety >sells and dead customers don't buy new cars. I would tend to disagree with Mr. White -- if our patent system is "matchless" then there must really be some miserable patent systems in the world. And what the comments below his appear to overlook are the instances when the inventor doesn't *choose* to "sit on valuable technology," --- but, rather those instances in which patent processing becomes tied up in the bowels of the patent office due to stupid, corrupt, and/or incompetent patent examiners/officials. It is sometimes not the inventor who needs to be "forced to act in (his) own best interest(s)" -- but rather the patent examiners who, because of their gross incompentence, need to be prodded into action; a process which could well exceed 18 months. And the inventor should not be penalized for the gross incompentence of patent examiners. And, moreover, I do not favor "forcing" anyone to do anything ... at least if one values the goal of building freedom. > > > Powerful multinational companies want HR 400 so they can simply grab new > ideas and use them against the actual inventors through long and > expensive legal tie-ups which the individual inventors just cannot > afford. > >Powerful multinational companies file more patents than individual inventors >do, and the economic value of the corporate patents is far greater. It looks >like the Big Guys want to steal from one another. Why should we care if Compaq >steals from IBM? > I would, of course, assume that the "quality" of the filed patents would normally be of greater importance than the "quantity" of filed patents. One patent filed by an independent inventor(s) could be more important than thousands of patents filed by multinational companies. Personally, I do not favor any system which can enable/facilitate *anyone* to steal from *anyone* --- however large or small. If stealing becomes an acceptable "norm" -- on any level -- then the entire civilization will suffer in the long run regardless of the perceived short-term gains. > >Well, if the Japanese and European systems already work this way, it seems >only fair that we should conform. They have already made their ideas easily >available to us, so why shouldn't we open up to them? In spite of its recent >economic doldrums, Japan still does better R&D than the U.S., and it produces >more innovative cost-effective consumer products than we do. Anything that >promotes openness is to our advantage, because we have more to learn from them >than they do from us. > >- Jed I would hope that one could find a better reason to consider adoption of a given plan simply because "others" choose to do it. The last sentence above is interesting with respect to the many years when Japan copied American-designed products/systems. It is not just a question of "openness" -- it is a fundamental question of "fairness" to the innovator. Openness is secondary to the primary consideration of fairness and system integrity --- which is what the innovators of our patent system seemed to envision when it was created. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "I cannot conceive curved lines of force without the conditions of a physical existence in that intermediate space." --- MICHAEL FARADAY From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 15:52:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA11195; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:40:00 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704102240.RAA07012 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Little's Ragland replication Resent-Message-ID: <"Bq3l_.0.pk2.jnMJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, thanks for bringing this out on Vortex. I wanted to discuss it openly but didn't know how you would feel about it. As most of you may have gathered by now, the JedGeneChris entity is working to perfect the triode cell as the first robust CF demo. We are wholeheartedly in favor of this action and have offered to give them anything we may learn about the cell ourselves. The reason we're pursuing it independently is simply that we have time to kill during the two-week long CETI Rifex runs and, as you may have surmised from recent exchanges, we are very anxious to observe the excess heat effect here at EarthTech. I have made two rather divergent attempts at the Ragland triode cell thus far. The first used a tubular Pd cathode 3mm in dia by .15mm thick by 1cm long. The run lasted about 4 days and there were numerous problems with the electrolysis but never any sign of the large excess heat that Ragland has observed (5x input power!). The second, which ended yesterday used a 13mm square piece of 1mm thick Pd sheet and two Pt wire anodes. Again we had some problems with the electrolysis but they were "corrected" and the cell ran for a total of 7 days without any significant sign of excess. Typical input power was 6 watts and the typical measured output power was 6.15 watts...a nominal 2.5% excess that I am virtually certain is just a systematic calorimetry error and not genuine excess heat. I also spoke with Ragland yesterday and we covered most of the points that Jed raised: >1. Ragland uses 0.1 molar LiOD, Little started with 0.2, and he later added >more lithium. Jed, there may be a mixup on Ragland's end here. I pressed him hard on this since my own experience suggests that the voltages would be too high with only .1 molar LiOD and Ragland finally said, "I add 2cc of powdered LiOH to 200 ml of water". The solid density of LiOH is given as 2.54 in the Aldrich catalog (and the Merck Index) and the bulk density of the powdered salt is probably about 60% of that...or 1.52. The 2cc's that Ragland uses is then about 3 grams of LiOH. In 200 ml of water, since the formula weight of LiOH is 24, that yields about a .63 molar solution! Possibly the 2.54 density is wrong...sure seems high for such a light compound and, in fact, my 1948 "Rubber bible" gives 1.43 for the density. Even with that figure, the resulting conc works out to .36 molar. One or both of us needs to approach Ragland with this data and ask for clarification. >2. Ragland's cathode is mounted in a cut-out in a sheet of plastic insulating >material. Teflon is best, nylon will do, as long as it resists oxidation. This >acts as a shield, making a long electrical path between the two anodes. I'm on it!. The next run will have the necessary separator. >3. Little made the electrolyte with lithium that had been stored in oil. He >found it difficult to clean the lithium. ...and exciting! I was wiping off the bar of lithium with a paper towel soaked in toluene (to remove the oil) and the towel burst into flames! I've sidestepped this whole problem by purchasing some LiOH from ALfa for the next run. >4. Ragland used much more platinum in his anodes. We discussed this and I'm moving to 1" square Pt mesh anodes for the next run. >5. Little's anodes are not equidistant from the cathode. I'm gonna fix this somehow for the next run, too. >6. Little reported wide voltage swings and sudden changes. Ragland and Tinsley >both said this sounds like the result of a loose connection. Actually there weren't any real sudden changes but that still doesn't rule out a loose connection. I will endeavor to make the next run muy perfecto in this respect. >7. Little did not discuss this but Ragland would like to remind him to >insulate the cathode and anode lead wires. They already are...sleeved in snug-fitting TFE tubing right down into the electrolyte to the point where they should be exposed...seems to work great...the Pt wire inside the sleeving stays nice and bright. >This may not be a problem, but I hope that Little has taken great care in >selecting and preparing the cathode. >"1. Get a hundred pieces of palladium . . ." >On one hand, I'd like to encourage him to do the >experiment as best he can even without these elaborate protocols. I'm with you on the last point, Jed. If this triode design doesn't eliminate the need to do all that expensive selecting, then it's not going to be worth much to me or to you, is it? My Pd is off-the-shelf Alfa Premion grade stuff...cost about $250 for a 25mm square piece. I have read Storms' stuff and that is precisely why I decided to cut it into 4 pieces....so I could run the experiment with four different pieces of Pd...without spending 4 x $250. Stay tuned to Vortex-L for futher updates in the Ragland triode chronicles. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 18:04:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA26707; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970411004348.00698e44 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_860733828==_" Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:43:48 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Littles KS Curves - Part II X-Attachments: C:\LittlePInotch1.gif; Resent-Message-ID: <"oQiAx2.0.9X6.wcOJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_860733828==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Did Scott Little actually get excess heat at his lowest drive level with the KS beads? I pointed out to Scott Little that KS beads results which he posted on the Internet MIGHT HAVE had the appearance of xs heat in the lowest drive level, and that his observed thereafter fall-off of efficiency of excess heat production may have been characteristic of the pi-notch electrode drive behaviour previously reported by me in Fusion Technology. Vortex people were invited to look for themselves at Scotts KS data, too. A cropped, blown-up, reversed image of Scotts data was appended. Although asked, Scott did not agree to send me his data of curves Pflow and Pin f(t) or plot himself Pflow as function of Pin, and share that set of data points. Therefore, two of us physically to the afternoon to measure his data points with a Sylvac Ultracal MarkIII caliper and found that the KS spheres did appear to have very low level excess heat much like the Patterson spheres. We calculated the pi-notch and at the peak, Little found about 15 (+/-15%)% excess. That is 3 standard deviations wide. It also included a portion of his curve where he may have added water, since he does not address that important issue in his post. I am including that pi-notch plot as a GIF figure. The pi-notch plot shows where Scott should have driven his very low level nickel electrodes. This is not an endorsement of Scotts calorimeter or his claimed levels of accuracy, nor is it a claim that he achieved excess heat. Rather, it is a suggestion of a location in the drive curve where his attention should have been focused if he was interested in achieving results based upon some of the technology reported in the literature. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) --=====================_860733828==_ Content-Type: image/gif; name="LittlePInotch1.gif"; x-mac-type="47494666"; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="LittlePInotch1.gif" R0lGODlhMwK1AfcAAAAAAAAAe3t7e5ycnL29vf////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:01:46 -0400 (EDT) From: lewis edward To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Plasmoid pictures Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"m3LX63.0.iT4.1sOJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello. I've put up an article with pictures of parts of an electrolysis cell on www.padrak.com/ine It can be found under recent articles or the plasmoids subject heading. Please take a look at it. The pictures show microscopic markings of what I call "plasmoids." What K. Shoulders calls EVs. In my opinion. Would anyone be interested in putting up other pictures with little text? Would people be interested in taking over holding that article on the Bailey's web page. He says he can't hold it for much longer since it takes too much space. What do people think? Is this sufficient evidence now of plasmoid production in electrolysis devices? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 18:46:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA23534; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:35:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:35:12 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970411013336.0075ce38 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:33:36 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Little's Ragland replication Resent-Message-ID: <"QH3L72.0.Zl5.FLPJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:40 PM 4/10/97 -0500, Scott wrote: > The reason we're pursuing it independently is simply that we >have time to kill during the two-week long CETI Rifex runs and, as you may >have surmised from recent exchanges, we are very anxious to observe the >excess heat effect here at EarthTech. >I have made two rather divergent attempts at the Ragland triode cell thus far. ..... >The first used a tubular Pd cathode 3mm in dia by .15mm thick by 1cm long. >The run lasted about 4 days and there were numerous problems with the >electrolysis but never any sign of the large excess heat that Ragland has >observed (5x input power!). > >The second, which ended yesterday used a 13mm square piece of 1mm thick Pd >sheet and two Pt wire anodes. Again we had some problems with the >electrolysis but they were "corrected" and the cell ran for a total of 7 >days without any significant sign of excess. Typical input power was 6 >watts and the typical measured output power was 6.15 watts...a nominal 2.5% >excess that I am virtually certain is just a systematic calorimetry error >and not genuine excess heat. What were the electrolysis problems? The the "coincidental" dips in the Pflow trace that occur just before the step-function increases in Pin occur? Was there room air currents sensitivity in this run? BTW How did you calculate your noise power level? When do you add water in your systems? Some of your curves go a week and there is no indication? Or do you not? Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 18:57:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA26419; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:53:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:53:42 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970411015159.006e5e64 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:51:59 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Vortex appropriate?---was: Can't eat oil Resent-Message-ID: <"AqWMT3.0.fS6.bcPJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:24 PM 4/8/97 -0500, Scott wrote: > I'm trying to reduce the amount of >overhead in this discussion group and you're increasing it with useless >nit-picking. Scott, you are projecting because YOU were inaccurate in YOUR nit-picking. I just agreed with you and even recommended restricting much of the talk to the field. ================================================ >> Since Scott has not made a single CF phenomenon work(and please immediately correct me if I am wrong) he seems hardly an authority on any aspect of what it takes to make CF reproducible. Jed, Russ, Martin, Stan, and others have some say in what is, but not Scott. >We're working hard to correct that situation. We have tried a number of >experiments in the past and we have not given up. We now have the CETI >Rifex kit going, and a Ragland triode replication (OK, >Jed..."approximation") is running in the dual-method calorimeter right now. > Good for you. Your thermometric, calorimetric, and data reduction setup will be carefully tested as to what you measure compared with what Miley and Ragland have reported. Hope you make that first tier of actually successfully repeating someone's experiment. ================================================ >>CF is reproducible, and if Scott might actually check the literature >>out for a change, he would see this is true. He might also improve the >>accuracy of his own comments, measurements and observations. >The accuracy of my own measurements is quite sufficient to observe the >reported effects. As you can see from the description of our dual-method >calorimeter, we can reliably see as little as 0.1 watts of excess heat from >an experiment running in the 0-1 watt total input range. Above that level, >we typically obtain 2-5% relative accuracy up to the capacity of this >calorimeter which is around 15-20 watts. Your calorimeter has problems some of which I shared with you by private email. That includes the appearance of significant sensitivity of something during the time the input did not change. Given that, see KS1 curves for example, given the outputs which are not rock steady even in the calibration ("sim excess heat"), because only the blue curve (Pflow) is even close without significant time delay, and because of other reasons (vide infra), those numbers might be looked at closer. =================================================== >We would be delighted to run one of your cells in this calorimeter, >Mitchell, and publish a detailed report of our findings for all to see. > Thanks for the offer. Our results are published, and have also published data confirming others electrodes. Hopefully someday, your own calorimetry will become more serious with more reasonable measurements of noise, and adequate initial baselines (which you may have had, but did not post on the Internet with the curves which you did post), and a closer look at what you did measure. It is interesting hearing the differences between the Ragland setup and what you undertook. ======================================================= >> >> Hope that helps. > >For some reason, I doubt the sincerity of this last statement. > You are quite wrong again. I do hope it helps, and have been working to help this field for quite a few years. Where have YOU been? However, Scott, your own inaccuracy, your putting down of the field of cold fusion involving isotopic loading and attempting to substitute ZPE (vaguely reminiscent of project "Blue Book"), your hope to be "testing board" of the field without your reading every paper in the literature, or having even achieved one positive cf experiment makes one suspect your own sincerity, Scott. Corroborating that, furthermore and consistent with my attempts to help, Scott, I pointed out to you that KS beads results which YOU posted on the Internet MIGHT HAVE had the appearance of xs heat in the lowest drive level, and that your observed fall-off of very low level xsh (excess heat) may have been characteristic of the pi-notch reported by me in Fusion Technology (Jan '97 issue). Although I pointed this out to you, and asked you a series of questions, you did not appear to really look closer. Suggest you do again. Any person here is invited to look for themselves at your KS data, too. A cropped, blown-up, reversed image of Scotts data was appended with one of these post. (have tried but unable to post 2x) It would be nice if Scott could take us through the regions of the curve. Alternatively, Scott has been kind enough to post it at his website. Scott, perhaps you might send your data of curves Pflow and Pin or plot yourself Pflow as function of Pin, and share that set of data points. We tried our best in a three standard deviation wide plot using your data which was just posted as the pi-notch of your data of the KS beads. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 19:02:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA05653 for billb@eskimo.com; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:02:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: revtec ptd.net Thu Apr 10 19:02:06 1997 Received: from mail.ptd.net (srv1.ptd.net [204.186.0.131]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA05605 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Old-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704110202.TAA05605 mx2.eskimo.com> Received: (qmail 9258 invoked from network); 11 Apr 1997 02:01:42 -0000 Received: from du105.con.ptd.net (HELO revtec.ptd.net) (204.186.47.105) by srv1.ptd.net with SMTP; 11 Apr 1997 02:01:42 -0000 X-Sender: revtec postoffice.ptd.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: revtec ptd.net (Jeff Fink) Subject: Re: Griggs Pump X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: >Any word on the Griggs pump? Last I heard there were some test units expected >to analyse if they were in fact o/u. This was a couple of months ago and >haven't heard anything since. What is the status if any? > >Also, anyone on this list trying to replicate the device on their own? > > >-john > >-- >John E. Steck >Motorola Inc. > > I fooled around with it for three months about a year ago trying to get the torque generation that Huffman claimed to have gotten. I did not succeed. I have some 3/4 hp hardware I would be interested in selling cheap. I'm located in SE PA. VTY Jeff Fink> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 19:06:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA04400; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970411015206.006e94e4 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:52:06 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Littles KS Curves - Part I Resent-Message-ID: <"kMx7D1.0.g41.VdPJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I pointed out to Scott Little that KS beads results which he posted on the Internet MIGHT HAVE had the appearance of xs heat in the lowest drive level, and that his observed fall-off of xsh (excess heat) was characteristic of the pi-notch reported by me in Fusion Technology. Any person here is invited to look for themselves at Scotts KS data, too. A cropped, blown-up, reversed image of Scotts data was sent appended UU encoded, then as JPG, but it has not gone anywhere despite two attempts to post to vortex Part I. The Pi notch curve did seem to come through, however, so hopefully some comments might be forthcoming. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 19:17:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA05720; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: 10 Apr 97 21:59:42 EDT From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: NPR Stations Message-ID: <970411015942_76570.2270_FHU38-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"UPIX02.0.IP1.pkPJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Visit NPR Stations on the Net! 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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 19:50:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA11016; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: 10 Apr 97 22:37:05 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Dreadful movie Message-ID: <970411023704_72240.1256_EHB30-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"M2l0J.0.0i2.FHQJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I saw that movie "The Saint." What wretched acting! What awful screenplay! I would have left after 15 minutes if it hadn't been for the CF angle. Still it was fun to see cold fusion portrayed in a heroic light, and that was the IDEAL public demonstration! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 19:51:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA11056; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: 10 Apr 97 22:36:54 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Little's Ragland replication Message-ID: <970411023654_72240.1256_EHB30-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"slYNw1.0.wh2.EHQJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little writes: Jed, there may be a mixup on Ragland's end here. . . . Ragland finally said, "I add 2cc of powdered LiOH to 200 ml of water". The solid density of LiOH is given as 2.54 in the Aldrich catalog (and the Merck Index) . . . That sounds like chemistry. We'll let Chris handle it, eh? We discussed this and I'm moving to 1" square Pt mesh anodes for the next run. That's good. Sounds expensive too. Is that pure Pt, or Pt on some cheaper substrate? If this triode design doesn't eliminate the need to do all that expensive selecting, then it's not going to be worth much to me or to you, is it? I don't think it eliminates expensive selecting and surface preparation. Ragland never claimed it does. He does careful preparation. He has said it makes the reaction more robust, and more likely to work. But if the cathode cracks or swells up too much (what Storms calls "excess volume") it isn't going to work. Obviously, if Pd based CF is ever going to become a viable technology, we have to determine exactly what metal qualities are needed and manufacture the metal to spec. We can't have people at the factory rooting through hundreds of cathodes to find five that work. That is how people manufactured transistors until the 1960s, but I can't see making heat engines that way. For now, however, since the metal is not manufactured to spec (and there is no spec), you have to do it the hard way. Some people say that nickel is more forgiving. Ohmori has had remarkable results with thin pure gold etched with glass. His ability to keep the cathode and electrolyte clean is astounding. I saw samples that had run for weeks which looked like brightly polished new jewelry. No visible galvanized gunk. My Pd is off-the-shelf Alfa Premium grade stuff...cost about $250 for a 25mm square piece. Ouch. I have no idea whether that is good or bad. Storms could afford to do this because he got his 100 pieces from the precious metal company, gratis. . . . that is precisely why I decided to cut it into 4 pieces I hope cutting did not hurt the metal. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 22:03:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA30090; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:01:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:01:01 -0700 Message-ID: <334DC561.7070 worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:00:20 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Dreadful movie References: <970411023704_72240.1256_EHB30-2 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5pPH32.0.vL7.CMSJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed - > What wretched acting! Mostly. Did you notice Liz's eyes dancing so brightly when Val throws her up against the wall in that one scene, saying "If you want to live..." I don't think that was acting. :) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 00:00:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA07396; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 00:58:42 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A VORTEX in the news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"OeWeA1.0.Up1.I4UJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Horace Heffner wrote: > Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 07:19:54 -0800 > From: Horace Heffner > Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: A VORTEX in the news > Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:15:59 -0700 (PDT) > Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com > > The following was sent to me by a lurker. The vortex reference puts it > beyond resistance of temptation to post: > > >Further to information you posted today on Vortex-List re ozone levels: > >in yesterday's (One&Only) Canadian national newspaper, the Globe & Mail, > >the front page news stated "Ozone Level Hits New Low Record". The news > >item reports that "the ozone level last month ... over Ellesmere Island > >and other areas of the northern Arctic) was the lowest ever recorded". > > > >The report goes on to state that "ozone values were much as 45 percent > >below normal". It does not, however, provide any information (as your > >posting did) as to how this compares with same time data from last year. > > > >Interestinly, the article states further that: > > > > "the dramatic drop in thickness of the ozone layer in the > > Arctic caught some scientists by surprise because they > > believed that the unique meteorological condition of the > > Antarctic were unlikely to occur in the Canadian Arctic. > > > >So, it looks like some of the ozone hole 'experts' were caught napping. > > > >The final item in the article that might be of some added interest to you > >(ie. in terms of providing an explanation for this unexpected occurrence, > >and at the same time adding a delightful sense of irony) is: > > > > "Environment Canada reported that the depletion of Arctic > > ozone layer was almost certainly caused by an unusually > > strong circular flow of winds, KNOWN AS A VORTEX, similar > > to what happens in the Antarctic. It is expected that the > > winds will break up later this month and warmer ozone-rich > > air will move into the Arctic statosphere. > > Regards, > Horace Heffner > "The GLobe & Mail. ' I'll bite ' What the hell are you talking about here...National Geographic 96... has all-ready shown that the "Ohole" INhales & EXhales. 'thats smaller & larger to you newbee's about every 15-18 years ... (they don't have enough data - DUH beyound those dates that say "the SKY is Falling" to go back on... BUT I suggest you think about yourself & the Earth 'as Breathing' IN(larger) and OUT(smaller) and be thankfull **it IS**! we finally seeeeeee/sawwwww!!! Gee We're ALIVE and Sooo is the Earth .....GO 'depletion & Excess's' p.s. after depletion comes (aggg NO,, absorbtion!) whewwww... ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2 freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 00:18:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA08584; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 00:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 00:16:02 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: alexz netwide.com.au, John.Strumila@DWNPLAZA.NCOM.nt.gov.au, Charles Cagle , char_ger ix.netcom.com (Charlotte Geier ), "E. Tyo" , echan@netspace.net.au, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, jpmr@worldonline.nl, Frank Bonte <106440.223 compuserve.com>, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Puthoff aol.com, little@eden.com (Scott Little), "James D Mann" , lhard@postoffice.csu.edu.au, "Lev G. Sapogin" , Rluijckx , Ronald Stiffler , tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien), "Russ George" , Tim van Spaandonk , "VanSpaandonk, Joe (Indonesia)" , vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Edres change Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 06:56:48 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <334dbf65.22745531 mail.eisa.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"R2OMS.0.262.jKUJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please note, that me email address has changed as per the return address on this message. Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 02:15:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA26661; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 01:43:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 01:43:56 -0700 Date: 11 Apr 97 04:41:52 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Little's Ragland replication Message-ID: <970411084152_100433.1541_BHG92-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"M8Naf3.0.RW6.BdVJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, > I've sidestepped this whole problem by purchasing some LiOH from > ALfa for the next run. At the risk of teaching granny to suck eggs, don't forget that this will be LiOH.H2O (and probably LiOH.[H2O]n if it has been much exposed to air) and thus have a higher gram-molecular weight. I only mention this because of the apparent muddle over adding solid LiOH to heavy water. Any proper chemist please correct me, but my own intention is to go to Nottingham University (where my son is doing post-grad research, so I can get in) and weigh out a suitable quantity of D2O, and then a suitable quantity of my LiOH.H2O - which is presently in a sealed container. The arithmetic would be: 100ml of D2O should weigh in at close to 100g * 20/18. LiOH.H2O has a molecular weight of (24 + 18) or 42. So 4.2g/111.1g would give a molar solution in 100ml, and 0.42g is required for 0.1M. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 03:11:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA06644; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 03:07:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 03:07:02 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 02:11:27 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: A VORTEX in the news Resent-Message-ID: <"h6R6g3.0.kd1.6rWJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:58 AM 4/11/97, Steve Ekwall wrote: [snip] >"The GLobe & Mail. ' I'll bite ' >What the hell are you talking about here...National Geographic 96... has >all-ready shown that the "Ohole" INhales & EXhales. 'thats smaller & >larger [snip] >-=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 Steve, the information posted is not mine, however, it seems safe to say the point is that there is no longer only "the" "Ohole", as you put it, which is in the Antarctic. There are now two, and the second is in the Arctic where it was thought conditions would not allow one to form. (There goes another theory shot down by data.) Of minor interest may be that, though 500 miles South of Barrow, Alaska, we are experiencing record temperatures here. Yesterday it was 52 Deg. F, the snow is gone, and the buds and insects are coming out. The weather is beautiful and I have a significant sun exposure already. Maybe the cold weather migrated South with the bears when they headed for Wall Street. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 04:38:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA20559; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 04:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 04:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970411113611.008d13e0 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:36:11 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: LiOD preparation Resent-Message-ID: <"C920Y1.0.515.A9YJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For what its worth: My technique for preparing LiOD solution is: Knowing the mass of Li wire per linear inch (cm), cut a desired length. Grab the piece of lithium with a pair of tweezers and wash it with xylene (toluene works fine, cyclohexane would be better) by pouring the solvent down the wire over a container. Follow through with a little acetone and towel the wire with a paper towel. Towelling the wire to remove the acetone should quickly remove the excess acetone. Evaporating acetone cools the wire to temperatures below the dew point, causing moisture condensation. Cut the wire into small pieces and add the pieces one at a time to D2O (Wear gloves and goggles). A vigorous reaction takes place. Note: All solvents contain some H2O unless precautions are taken to remove the water and keep it dry. One can remove the water from toluene and xylene by distillation. You don't have to distill the total volume, just enough to remove the lower boiling water. This can be observed by watching the condensing distillate. The first few drops will be turbid (water and solvent at above saturation concentrations of water). When the condensing distillate is clear, the remaining solvent in the distillation pot should be anhydrous; the distillation can be stopped at this stage. Another approach to making lithium deuteroxide (LiOD) is to use lithium oxide. Strem Chemical and Aldrich Chemical sell Li2O. I use lithium wire because Aldrich will not sell chemicals to me as an individual. Before I learned of Strem Chemical I found a source of Li wire (also Pd, Pt, Ti, etc.) at SurePure Chemetals, Inc. Using LiOH.XH2O for making LiOD solutions introduces protons into the solution. Do we know how much H+ concentration that can be tolerated in the Pd-D2O cold fusion system? Ed Strojny Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 05:22:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA15787; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 05:21:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 05:21:31 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 04:25:54 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Little's Ragland replication Resent-Message-ID: <"nes0z3.0.bs3.ApYJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:36 PM 4/10/97, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >Ohmori has had remarkable results with thin pure gold etched with glass. His >ability to keep the cathode and electrolyte clean is astounding. I saw samples >that had run for weeks which looked like brightly polished new jewelry. No >visible galvanized gunk. [snip] > >- Jed Could you describe Ohmori's technique a bit? Especially, what is meant by "gold etched with glass". Also of interest is the electrolyte makeup, geometry, etc. I take it this is a heavy water experiment? How is the repeatability for Ohmori's technique? What is really astounding is getting an effect from gold, which has been used as a control in the past (now Au is no longer useful for that!). Curious that Au has a fairly large thermal neutron cross section. This might point to Iridium as a prospect for cathode material, or even rare earth elements like Gd, Sm, or Eu. Gd, Sm, or Eu have low conductivties which require a higher electrolysis voltage, but on the other hand a low conductivity is very good for distributing the interface current evenly over the surface of cathodes, or cathode beads. It seems like if/when alloys start being investigated or custom designed, that a conductivity less than the electrolyte would be a highly desireable design criteria. Gadolinium has some other intresting properties as well as the largest known thermal neutron cross section, including being ferromagnetic and having a room temperature curie point, and a price similar to gold. Reacts slowly with water and dissolves in an acid, but maybe an alloy would work OK, or it might work best in gas mode. Small quantities (1%) of Gd have large effects on alloys in terms of improving workability and oxidation resistance of iron and chromium alloys to oxidation. Samarium is much cheaper, but less stable. Other rare earths also have high cross sections and unusual physical and chemical properties not fully explored due to the only recent availability in bulk and affordable prices. This discussion leads to some almost obvious points. It is no good having to worry about purity in the extreme and having to select cathode material based upon unknown criteria. There are numerous theories for the cause of CF based upon the cathode crystal lattice structure. One way to check out some of these theories is to custom design lattices that should optimize the effects based upon each specific theory. Another point is that a better use of funds than repeating F&P (or P&F) type experiments over and over (not a criticism of Ragland replication), might be an Edisonian style search of custom made cathode alloys. The problem with such a search is the number of degrees of freedom. This would not be such a problem if a simple cheap test of the material could yield a reliable better/worse result. If so, there are numerous mutlivariate optimization techniques that could be applied to the search. IF X is a tuple representing the amount of each element (or isotope) in the cathode alloy, and a test of the cathode material with contents X results in a performance y=f(X), then the problem boils down to finding out what f looks like and finding the maxima. One way to start such a search is to pick a point X and look at the sensitivity of X to changes in a single concentration. If adding a small amount of material x_i increases f, then x_i can be incremented, holding other variables constant, until a maximum point is found with respect to x_i. Eventually, using this approach, you can walk your way to a local maxima. The problem is knowing how many local maxima there are. Without some theory or knowledge to lead the way, this problem is only overcome by starting at numerous places at random or uniformly. There are various approaches for very fast stochastic search methods. None of this is of much use, however, unless a repeatable test is available. It is a chicken and egg problem. At this stage of development, it seems like the best strategy is simply to search as many points as possible. If a "reliable" material is found, it should show a positive result. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 05:23:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA15962; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 05:22:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 05:22:34 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970411082158_1553846759 emout01.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: BLP on SPF? Resent-Message-ID: <"Mbh6A1.0.Kv3.9qYJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians, A question for those Vortexians who may still be following sci.physics.fusion: has there been a BlackLight Power thread on sci.physics.fusion in recent weeks? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 06:45:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA27579; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 06:43:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 06:43:35 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:28:57 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" Message-ID: <334e4ab1.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: "Peter Glueck" Subject: Re: BLP on SPF? Resent-Message-ID: <"2tLFS3.0.pk6.60aJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 05:22:34 -0700, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > A question for those Vortexians who may still be following > sci.physics.fusion: has there been a BlackLight Power thread on > sci.physics.fusion in recent weeks? > Tom Stolper I am following the spf discussions via Chemcenter (ACS's webpage). It was a string re."fractional states" i.e the Mills theory between Dick Blue (nasty words, homework not made, bad spelling) and John Farrell, well documented, clear arguments, with many classes above Blue, who eventually calmed down. As style at least. The usual by Carr, Kunich, and other CF killers. An exquisite quote yesterday by ShipmanAC: "It is best remembered that PHYSICS is still 99% theory and 1% law, its past is filled with claims that all answers have been found only to have the whole field turned upside down and proven 99% wrong? <- A physicist with a closed mind is an idiot and a fraud-> Peter PS. Can please somebody tell us what's in the Kestenbaum article? -- dr. Peter Gluck Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700 Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 07:11:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA00860; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:08:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:08:45 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:11:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Thought Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"TykJy.0.HD.hNaJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ______________________________________________________ Historical Note: No doubt the reader is familiar with the popular story about Einstein's "thought experiment" regarding his "riding on a beam of light." The following "thought experiment" may also help one to think 'outside the square.' E. Soule' (Drawings converted to ascii format by ERS) ______________________________________________________ From: HLafonte aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:43:14 -0400 (EDT) To: josephnewman earthlink.net Subject: Thought experiment from H.W. (Butch) La Fonte ANALYSIS OF THOUGHT EXPERIMENT CONCERNING BEHAVIOR OF POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE CHARGES IN A SUPER CONDUCTING DIRECT CURRENT CIRCUIT AND THE ASSOCIATED BEHAVIOR OF THE MAGNETIC FIELD THAT SURROUNDS THE SOLID CONDUCTOR OF THE CIRCUIT DURING THE INITIAL ELECTRICAL IMPULSE THROUGH THE CIRCUIT AUTHOR: HAROLD W. LA FONTE Copyright 3-26-96 First posting: 4-11-97 Figure 1. CIRCUIT LENGTH 1 LIGHT HOUR (669,600,000 MILES) FROM VOLTAGE SOURCE TO POINT E (1,339,200,000 MILES TOTAL CIRCUIT LENGTH) [Note: Some mail programs may distort the ascii diagrams; it is hoped that the recipient can re-construct the original diagram, if necessary.] _____________________________________________ | C ^ | | | | A | (+) | | ------- | | | | Direct Current | | | | Voltage Source | | E | | | | ------- 6 ft. | B | (-) | | | | | | D v | _____________________________________________ \ \___________ Superconducting Wire This simple looking circuit as shown in figure 1, has some very interesting aspects. In talking with physics and electrical instructors that teach on the college level, many believed that a large number of students at all levels lacked knowledge of the fundamental behavior of this circuit. It appears to me that the initial behavior of current flow (electron drift), with respect to current impulse, and the formation of a magnetic field around a conductor of this length has not been presented in any text books or publications of any type to my knowledge. The behavior of the magnetic field around this straight conductor of such length, I believe, will behave in a very unique way. I think the field will take on a " pumping" type action not seen in any type circuit described previously. I see the expanding magnetic field along such a long conductor causing a back EMF that will begin to decrease the current rise. When this is sensed by the magnetic field at the beginning of the conductor, the field will collapse and try to maintain the present current flow . When this field collapses and the current rate starts to reach zero, the field will start to re-establish. This will start a wave like "pumping action," in my opinion. If this wave aspect does exist, then the circuit would have a wave-particle duality as does light. The electron aspect of the circuit being the particle aspect, the wave "pumping action" of the magnetic field being the wave aspect. There are other unique aspects to this circuit also, that I will cover in this paper. I believe that every student should have knowledge of the fundamental behavior of this circuit, though it has no practical application at this time. The sequence of events in this circuit as the circuit is simultaneously closed at the positive and negative terminals of the power source are as follows: 1. An electrical impulse originates at near light speed from the negative terminal of the battery, electron drift is started at this instant also, but at a slower speed, less than a millimeter per second for a current of one ampere flowing through a wire of very small diameter, such as the filament of a light bulb. A magnetic field starts to build around the conductor at this instant also. The only resistance to current flow (electron drift) in the direction from point B to point E is the counter-electromotive force induced in the opposite direction by the expanding magnetic field around the conductor. 2. At the same time that current flow starts at the negative terminal toward point E, electrons start flowing into the voltage source at the positive terminal, causing a progression of positive charged atoms to originate in the wire from point A to point E at near light speed. These atoms are bound in the solid conductor and they do not drift down the wire as do the negative charged electrons drifting from the negative terminal of the voltage source, point B to point E. A magnetic field builds around the wire, starting at the positive terminal of the voltage source, and progresses down the wire toward point E at the same rate as the magnetic field in the lower wire in the illustration. To help visualize this, what has happened after the circuit was closed at the voltage source is, two magnetic fields are building around the wires starting at the voltage source, and are racing "neck and neck" to point E to meet with each other. 3. It needs to be made clear that electron drift does not get left behind at the voltage source by the electrical impulse traveling at near light speed, but is continuously initiated at the leading point of the impulse. In other words, the electrical impulse strikes the electrons in its path and initiates their drift. The impulse at near light speed and the initiation of electron drift at near light speed must not be confused with the actual speed of the drift, it being much slower as stated previously. 4. Now we come to some very interesting aspects of this circuit. First, with a circuit one light hour long, with the electrical impulses from the voltage source being at points C and D, heading toward point E , a person at point E with a meter would not have any indication of electrical activity in the circuit for thirty minutes. He could actually cut the wires and the impulses traveling in the two wires toward him at near light speed, would behave no differently! The impulses at this point do not know if they are in an open circuit or a closed circuit! If you were to put a light bulb in the circuit at point D, the light would reach the person at point E before the electrical impulse, even with the wires cut at point E, due to the impulse being slightly slower than the speed of light due to its travel in the wire. After the two impulses meet, a continuous transfer of impulses from atom to atom by negatively charged electrons takes place while the actual drift of electrons is also continuous. The direction of electron drift is from the negative terminal around to the positive terminal of the voltage source. 5. Another interesting aspect of this circuit is if the superconductor weighed the same as #30 gauge copper wire, and the two wires were put close together before the circuit was closed, the wires would want to repel each other due to their currents flowing in opposite directions. If they did repel each other only 1/4", then 833,702,726 pounds or 416,850 tons of wire would have been moved! That's roughly the weight of 208,000 large automobiles. What if the voltage source was a AAA battery 1.5v? Figure 2. CIRCUIT LENGTH 1 LIGHT HOUR (669,600,000 MILES) FROM VOLTAGE SOURCE TO POINT E (1,339,200,000 MILES TOTAL CIRCUIT LENGTH) switch light ___________ _____ (Y)_____________________ | / C ^ | | / | | A | (+) | | ------- | | | | Direct Current | | | | Voltage Source | | E | | | | ------- 6 ft. | B | (-) | | | | | | D v | _____________________________________________ \ \___________ Superconducting Wire 6. If you were to put a light bulb a few feet from the positive terminal in the circuit, and as the two magnetic fields meet at point E, you were to short out the circuit at the switch shown in figure 2 at switching time = 0, the current would decrease exponentially to zero, during this time, ( this inductive time constant needs to be calculated ) the light bulb would continue to burn, though decreasing in brightness. This would take place with the voltage source disconnected! This takes place after the light burned for one hour during the original pulse! SUMMARY 1. The inductive time constant of this circuit is at this point unknown to me. This time constant is, in my opinion, the governing factor in the behavior of this circuit. This value needs to be formulated. 2. The wave properties of the magnetic field that surround the conductor need to be analyzed, if indeed they do exist. 3. The total amount of energy stored in the magnetic field for a given current flow would be of interest also. 4. The circuit, I believe, needs to be mathematically verified. If one looks deeper into the possible behavior of this circuit, much can be learned and made available to the student. Certain anomalies with respect to energy conservation laws will have to be explained. This simple circuit as part of a thought experiment might explain some of the over-unity claims being reported in this country (i.e., Joseph Newman) and in JAPAN and other countries. If we cannot or simply will not take the time to analyze the behavior of this circuit, that is, the cemf, with respect to wave properties, inductive time constant, and the total energy of the magnetic field, and the total power available from that field, we will continue to work within a science of which we don't fully understand the fundamentals. I would greatly appreciate anyone willing to help in verifying this circuit behavior. Figure 3. (Please draw lines connecting the asterisks) [Drawn lines actually intersect the horizontal & cross over] Expanding Field Collapsing Field (being pumped) (pumping) \ * / \ / \ * * / * * * ------------------------------------------solid conductor * * * * * * Figure 4. (Please draw lines connecting the asterisks) [Drawn lines actually intersect the horizontal & cross over] (Vertically compressed versions of Figure 3] * * * * * * * * * -----------------------------solid conductor------------ * * * * * * * * * H. W. (BUTCH) LA FONTE 119 ROBERT E. LEE AVE. LEEDS, ALABAMA 35094 PHONE-1-205-699-5364 FAX- 1-205-699-5141 E-MAIL hlafonte aol.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 07:49:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA10805; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:47:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:47:10 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Scudder,Henry J" To: Mitchell Swartz , Vortex-L Subject: RE: Littles KS Curves - Part II Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:42:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"d2Fq83.0.le2.ixaJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell What is a pi-notch? Hank Scudder ---------- From: Mitchell Swartz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Littles KS Curves - Part II Date: Thursday, April 10, 1997 5:43PM Did Scott Little actually get excess heat at his lowest drive level with the KS beads? I pointed out to Scott Little that KS beads results which he posted on the Internet MIGHT HAVE had the appearance of xs heat in the lowest drive level, and that his observed thereafter fall-off of efficiency of excess heat production may have been characteristic of the pi-notch electrode drive behaviour previously reported by me in Fusion Technology. Vortex people were invited to look for themselves at Scotts KS data, too. A cropped, blown-up, reversed image of Scotts data was appended. Although asked, Scott did not agree to send me his data of curves Pflow and Pin f(t) or plot himself Pflow as function of Pin, and share that set of data points. Therefore, two of us physically to the afternoon to measure his data points with a Sylvac Ultracal MarkIII caliper and found that the KS spheres did appear to have very low level excess heat much like the Patterson spheres. We calculated the pi-notch and at the peak, Little found about 15 (+/-15%)% excess. That is 3 standard deviations wide. It also included a portion of his curve where he may have added water, since he does not address that important issue in his post. I am including that pi-notch plot as a GIF figure. The pi-notch plot shows where Scott should have driven his very low level nickel electrodes. This is not an endorsement of Scotts calorimeter or his claimed levels of accuracy, nor is it a claim that he achieved excess heat. Rather, it is a suggestion of a location in the drive curve where his attention should have been focused if he was interested in achieving results based upon some of the technology reported in the literature. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) <> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 08:02:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA14391; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:00:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:00:46 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:00:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704111500.KAA09659 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Little's Ragland replication Resent-Message-ID: <"G4iHR.0.nW3.T8bJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:41 AM 4/11/97 EDT, Chris Tinsley wrote: >At the risk of teaching granny to suck eggs.... this must from the same Brit that coined the inscrutable "Bob's your uncle"...:-) >don't forget that this will be LiOH.H2O I specifically selected the anyhdrous LiOH and am planning to not let it get exposed to air much. I worry enuf about the H vs D in the LiOH and didn't want to add more H (instead of D) in the .H2O part. Ragland didn't specify which he used so I used my own rationale to decide (damn, there I go again!). >100ml of D2O should weigh in at close to 100g * 20/18. LiOH.H2O has a molecular >weight of (24 + 18) or 42. So 4.2g/111.1g would give a molar >solution in 100ml, and 0.42g is required for 0.1M. Correct and, at an expected bulk density of about 1, that'll be about .4cc's of the salt, a little less than half of the amount Ragland told me he used (2cc per 200 ml)....i.e. we still need to clear this up with him. BTW, the 1970 CRC Handbook (aka the "Rubber Bible") also gives 1.46 for the density of LiOH and 1.51 for the density of LiOH.H2O. It appears the I have uncovered an error in the Merck Index AND in the Aldrich catalog where the value of 2.45 appears for the density of LiOH. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 08:08:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA15610; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:06:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:06:05 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:05:47 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704111505.KAA10290 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: LiOD preparation Resent-Message-ID: <"0G_6x2.0.dp3.QDbJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:36 AM 4/11/97 -0400, Ed Strojny wrote: >My technique for preparing LiOD solution is: Ed, I let some pieces of Li metal float around in a beaker of acetone the other day for about 15 minutes and noticed a strange whitish growth forming on the Li pieces...big flaky crystals. Any ideas? >Using LiOH.XH2O for making LiOD solutions introduces protons into the >solution. Do we know how much H+ concentration that can be tolerated in the >Pd-D2O cold fusion system? Evan Ragland does it with "lithium hydroxide" (hydration not specified) and reports great success. He feels that the "sloshing" back and forth provided by the switched triode action in his cell works to fill the Pd lattice with D preferentially to H. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 08:08:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA14166; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:00:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704111500.KAA09672 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Little's KS Curves Resent-Message-ID: <"FNwiH1.0.AT3.o8bJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In my opinion, Mitchell's analysis of our Kirk Shanahan bead results is a good example of "over-analysis" of data. It is a dangerous practice that frequently leads to erroneous claims of positive results, a problem that has plagued the CF field and many other fields of science. If you will examine the Pflow trace (blue) throughout the entire KS run you will see that it is not perfectly steady but "wobbles" around about +/- 0.05 watts. This is typical behavior for this calorimeter and has led to my statement in the Dual-method calorimeter writeup, "Measurement accuracy was determined from the calibration runs and for both methods is typically about +/- 0.05 watts ". In the section of the plot that Mitchell is analyzing, the first Pin plateau which starts at about 0600 on day 4 of the run, the Pflow trace runs about 0.03 watts above Pin for the better part of day 4 and then "dips" down to about .03 watts below Pin for a few hours just before I turned up the electrolysis current at 0600 on day 5. I am firmly of the opinion that this behavior is just calorimetry error that happens to show up as an interesting pattern. No, it's clearly not random fluctuations. It's probably due to inadequate and unstable thermal mixing of the exit electrolyte stream as it leaves the bead space and passes by the outlet temperature sensor. The point is: IT'S A TINY SIGNAL for this calorimeter. This calorimeter was designed to look at CETI bead experiments which were usually reported to produce at least several watts of excess heat...100 times more than the .03 watts that we're discussing! We designed the calorimeter so it could reliably see at least 10 times less excess heat (i.e. 0.3 watts) than was reported. Now Mitchell is trying to determine whether or not a signal 10 times smaller than that (i.e. 0.03 watts)....less than the stated accuracy of the calorimeter...is an indication of excess heat. Maybe it is...but I don't how this calorimeter could confirm it. Anybody see it differently? Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 08:34:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA00404; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:27:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:27:34 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Scudder,Henry J" To: "hheffner corecom.net" , Vortex-L Subject: Re: A VORTEX in the news Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:24:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"I71yp2.0.E6.aXbJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Don't let the mosquitos carry you away. I visited your country a few years ago, and was camping out. Just as I was falling asleep, I heard one mosquito say to another, "Shall we eat him here or carry him home". The other answered, "Let's eat him here, if we take him home, the big boys will take him away from us". I don't know how it ended, I fell asleep. Hank ---------- From: hheffner corecom.net To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A VORTEX in the news Date: Friday, April 11, 1997 3:11AM At 12:58 AM 4/11/97, Steve Ekwall wrote: [snip] >"The GLobe & Mail. ' I'll bite ' >What the hell are you talking about here...National Geographic 96... has >all-ready shown that the "Ohole" INhales & EXhales. 'thats smaller & >larger [snip] >-=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 Steve, the information posted is not mine, however, it seems safe to say the point is that there is no longer only "the" "Ohole", as you put it, which is in the Antarctic. There are now two, and the second is in the Arctic where it was thought conditions would not allow one to form. (There goes another theory shot down by data.) Of minor interest may be that, though 500 miles South of Barrow, Alaska, we are experiencing record temperatures here. Yesterday it was 52 Deg. F, the snow is gone, and the buds and insects are coming out. The weather is beautiful and I have a significant sun exposure already. Maybe the cold weather migrated South with the bears when they headed for Wall Street. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 08:49:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA03870; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:47:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:47:10 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:45:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970411114457_-1067134501 emout11.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, noever@webtv.net, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov Subject: cross section for reaction Resent-Message-ID: <"ScGrh.0.Ky.zpbJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My group still has the Yusmar Cavitator here in Johnstown Pa. and we are assessing what to do next. Thanks to G Miley I'm was invited to the NASA propulsion seminar this Aug. I want to present a proposal for funding to continue my research. Publised reports on sono-lumenscence state pressures of 100,000 PSI and temperatures of 10,000 deg K. I've been attempeting to review these conditions with respect to the conventional Lawson Creiteria for hot inertial confinement fusion. Has anyone else looked at this and what do they think? I also believe that 'something" may be causing a resonance in the system with a resulting increase in the cross section for reaction. Has anyone every seen any data on how the allignment of nuclear spins my effect the cross section for reaction? With out knowing the cross sections, how can I submitt a valid proposal? The Yusmar tests were all conducted with light water. The cross section for the reaction of H + H -->D is very small 10 exp -33 barns. I would like to try some heavy water the cross section D + H --> 3He is much higher on the order of 10exp - 2 barns. I need funding and support to continue with the heavy water sono fusion experiments. I'm working on it. The Lawson creitera may not exactly apply to cavitation induced fusion. Lasers in convention inertial confinement fusion are at best 10% efficient, the pellets are large with dimensions in mili-meters. The large pellets and low efficiencys require large amounts of energy. I suspect the the formation of cavitation bubbles is a natural process that is very efficient. Any ideas? Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 09:20:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA24474; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970411160921.0076a030 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:09:21 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Little's KS Curves Resent-Message-ID: <"gi8bi3.0.J-5.yAcJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:00 AM 4/11/97 -0500, Scott Little became defensive and wrote: >In my opinion, Mitchell's analysis of our Kirk Shanahan bead results is a >good example of "over-analysis" of data. It is a dangerous practice that >frequently leads to erroneous claims of positive results, a problem that has >plagued the CF field and many other fields of science. > Dangerous? Like reading the literature, Scott? In my opinion, Scotts presentation of data, which he claims is useful, but which on examination he claims is "overanalysis", is a waste of bandwidth to this field. Either Scott stands by the data, or does not. ========================================= >If you will examine the Pflow trace (blue) throughout the entire KS run you >will see that it is not perfectly steady but "wobbles" around about +/- 0.05 >watts. This is typical behavior for this calorimeter and has led to my >statement in the Dual-method calorimeter writeup, "Measurement accuracy was >determined from the calibration runs and for both methods is typically about >+/- 0.05 watts ". > You apparently are confused about accuracy versus precision (reproducibility). They are different, and different from sensitivity, too. ======================================== >In the section of the plot that Mitchell is analyzing, the first Pin plateau >which starts at about 0600 on day 4 of the run, the Pflow trace runs about >0.03 watts above Pin for the better part of day 4 and then "dips" down to >about .03 watts below Pin for a few hours just before I turned up the >electrolysis current at 0600 on day 5. > When did you add the water? You still have not answered. Or did you never add fresh electrolyte, Scott? Why did it dip down just at the end. And what about those several HOURS of apparent excess heat. Either you stand by your data, or you do not. How many hours of excess heat (very low level, and uncalibrated because it was measured in a vertical flow calorimeter which can amplify the effect) did you see? 16 hours, Scott? ============================================ >I am firmly of the opinion that this behavior is just calorimetry error that >happens to show up as an interesting pattern. No, it's clearly not random >fluctuations. It's probably due to inadequate and unstable thermal mixing >of the exit electrolyte stream as it leaves the bead space and passes by the >outlet temperature sensor. The point is: IT'S A TINY SIGNAL for this >calorimeter. Scott, one of the toughest thing in life is to describe the very thing in front of your eyes. Why dont you describe what you did. If the excess heat was 30 milliwatts and was real (** and I believe it is amplified because you use a vertical flow calorimeter, as have published extensively), it is a TINY but important signal. If it is due to "inadequate and unstable thermal mixing of the exit electrolyte stream", then your calorimeter is defective, and you have no right knocking the KS bead technology with your insensitive equipment. Either you stand by your data, or do you not, Scott. Or do you stand by the data when it disproves the field, and ignore even looking closer when it might support it somewhat. BTW, is the the quality of work you did in your two pseudo-Ragland type setups? Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 09:59:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA15323; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:52:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:52:59 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:54:58 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A Travelling Field? Resent-Message-ID: <"DAjqx1.0.Ll3.gncJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: With respect to Feynman, vol 2, section 18-4, and Robert Stirniman's objections to it: I borrowed a copy and read lots of the sections on EM, of which this is a part. In this example he uses an idelized model problem to introduce several concepts: EM travelling wave, some EM plane wave properties, and the launching of an EM wave from a current source. Feynman has a way of teaching here by introducing bits of ideas as he goes along, but he is weaving web of interconnected ideas that in the end builds a strong integrated fabric. However, it is hard to find any one familiar idea fully developed in a single section. It can be frustrating at times for the student, and according to Feynman's own Preface, apparently that is how most of his students found it. There he considers this method of teaching ato have been a failure. Probably "The Feynman Lectures on Physics" are best used as a companion to another text. I, for one, am more used to the stand-alone topic approach, but then the student has to try to put it all together in the end somehow. Back to Robert's problem. The example is a sheet of charge, which is suddenly accelerated to a constant velocity, to result in a sheet of current. There is a stationary sheet of equal and opposite charge right next to the moving sheet, so that there is no external static electric field. Sometime later, the current sheed is suddenly brought to rest again. Feynman's solution is a field of mutually perpendicular B and E that propagates off the sheet in both directions at the speed of light, c, for as long as the motion lasts, after which the field continues to propagate out forever without change of shape. E is parallel to the direction of charge motion, and B is mutually perpendicular to E and the direction of propagation. >...Feynman treats it all as one field, He showed that the EM field is one in chapt 13. >and in essence tries to show that retardation in the local >field is same effect as the travelling field. .... >....because he was looking for an >introductory example to demonstrate retardation along with >the travelling wave. These are Robert's words, not Feynman's. Feynman does not talk at all here about retardation in the local vs travelling field. Feynman is developing a plane wave solution by applying static field techniques introduced earlier in the course. >He "knew" this is true. Yet, I think he was unsuccessful in demonstrating >it. Maybe because it is not true? >...There are some peculiar things about Feynman's solution. Perhaps Robert does not understand Feynman's method of solution. To summarize his method, which he uses frequently throughout the book, is to "guess" a solution and then to demonstrate that it satisfies the governing equations. The solution is valid, regardless of whether it was guessed or not. I use it myself, when I can. Obviously, it takes experience. Some people might find this approach disconcerting, and it can be hard for the student, who at first does not have the vast store of experience to draw from; plus, we all sometimes need to solve real (nonidealized) problems, for which systematic solution techniques are needed. >Anyhow -- in his solution he shows a constant E field propagating >along with a constant H field. A neat example of a travelling EM wave. This is what Feynman wanted, a "neat example of a travelling EM wave." >Except where does the E field come from? If it comes from the sheet >of charge -- it must already be out there (not propagating). And if >it is not already out there (as it wouldn't be if were masked by >another opposite sheet of non-moving charge, as mentioned in the >the text but not shown in the graphic), it would not ever be out >there. > >I think the correct solution should show an impulse of E field, >which exists only at the front edge of the travelling wave, and >which is caused by the impulse acceleration of the sheet of charge. >But, the travelling wave described by an impulse of E field would >result would be an unworkable solution in the second part of Feynman's >example, where he wants to show a pulse of travelling (local) H field >which continues to flow away when the current is stopped. A more >fundamental difficulty with this example problem might be that an >infinite sheet of charge, instantly accelerated, is not physically >realizable. OK. First, I eat crow. In my initial response to try to help Robert, I agreed that E should appear at infinite amplitude in thin layers (impulse of E) at the front and back of the travelling pulse. Wrong. I wrote quickly off the top of my head and didn't even bother to do a quick sketch and a couple of equations to verify it. Arrogance! Feynman's solution is correct. The field is uniform E and B inside the wave pulse (as I described near the beginning of this message). (My mistake was, in my haste, I equated dE/dt with E. Of course, dE/dt is infinitely large, because dt is vanishingly small, but when integrated in time, this becomes a step in E, as in Feynman's solution.) Robert, the current sheet is neutral, consisting of equal positive and negative charge. Only one species moves to make a current sheet. Before putting one set of charges in motion, there are no fields, E or B. One "physical" explanation of where that steady E comes from is the need to continuously fill space at the leading edge with B as the wave advances at the speed of light. > >There are some strong philosophical arguments, and some >experimental indications that the local/connected EM fields >(radial/longitudinal EM forces) are not retarded in the same way >as the transverse EM wave. Feynman treats retardation piecemeal, as is his style. In eqs. 18.24 and 18.25 you see wave equations for the potentials, with the wave structure terms on the left and sources of current and charge on the right. He solves them without the sources (free space waves) in chapt 20. There he also emphasizes that the results are valid for any wave shape, not just the familiar sinusoids. In chapt 21 he develops retardation further, but he skips the full mathematical proof (this was only a second year course). The result is the equations in the box on p. 21-5. Note that the potentials are generated by the RETARDED fields of the elementary charges and currents. > >Any opinions about action-at-a-distance in local EM forces? Within the Maxwell equations, all interaction is via RETARDED fields. Any other interaction lies outside the Maxwell equations. New experimental evidence must be brought in. (See chapt 28 for a long discussion on the limitations of our present knowledge re EM and fundamental particles.) Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 10:23:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA19162; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:20:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:20:46 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970411171841.00a67268 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:18:41 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: RE: Littles KS Curves - Part II Resent-Message-ID: <"sI93t2.0.Kh4.jBdJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:42 AM 4/11/97 -0700, Hank wrote: >Mitchell > What is a pi-notch? >Hank Scudder > ---------- Hank, The peak activity of samples [PI(max)] seems to vary from piece to piece, and each sample to observe PI(max) must be "driven" in the correct fashion. Both the sample's initial activity, and how it is "driven" effect its actual output. Thus the actual observed power gain [pi] of each sample is that peak factor diminished by the failure to drive to the sample optimally. The second factor is <1. pi (power gain factor) = PI(max) * (factor a function of "drive",etc.) Swartz, M., "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model of Isotope Loading into a Material", Fusion Technology, vol 31, 63-74, January (1997). The fall-off has to do, in part, with inefficiency from other isotope losing unwanted reactions (gas electrolysis). If you can follow continuum electromechanics, or know what a convective derivative is, you should be able to follow it. Swartz, M., "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300 (1992). Swartz, M., "ISOTOPIC FUEL LOADING COUPLED TO REACTIONS AT AN ELECTRODE", Fusion Technology, 26, 4T, 74-77 (December 1994) The pi-notch is where to drive the reaction for peak power conversion efficiency. Dont leave home without it. ;-)X Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 11:00:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA07220; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: 11 Apr 97 13:45:23 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Ohmori experiment Message-ID: <970411174522_72240.1256_EHB127-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"50QOQ2.0.km1.AcdJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Horace Heffner asks: Could you describe Ohmori's technique a bit? It is pretty well described in his paper, T. Ohmori, T. Mizuno, M. Enyo, "Isotopic Distributions of Heavy Metal Elements Produced During The Light Water Electrolysis On Gold Electrodes," Journal of New Energy, Fall 1996, pp. 90 - 99. Especially, what is meant by "gold etched with glass". Just what it sounds like: a thin gold foil is scraped with clean glass. That leaves scratch marks over the surface. Quote: "The roughness factor of the electrode determined from the double layer capacitance [2 - technique from J. Electroanal. Chem] was around 2.0. Also of interest is the electrolyte makeup, geometry, etc. Described in paper. Na2SO4 and Na2CO3 from Merck, supra-pure grade. Impurities are listed. How is the repeatability for Ohmori's technique? It works for him nearly every time. As far as I know, nobody else has ever tried to replicate it, so I cannot say if the effect is real or not. (I never fully trust an experiment done by only one group.) I doubt there are many people in the world who *could* replicate it. Bockris, Miles or McKubre maybe. Ohmori has been doing it for years. I saw a box full of maybe 50 used cathodes. As I said, even though they were electrolyzed for 20 to 30 days, they looked much cleaner than most people's unused electrodes. I found that astounding, never mind his results. What is really astounding is getting an effect from gold, which has been used as a control in the past (now Au is no longer useful for that!). . . . Yup. Thank goodness that's not my problem. I am beginning to think that any metal will show a CF effect under the right circumstances, just as any kind of wood will burn. Perhaps a metal control is impossible by definition. None of this is of much use, however, unless a repeatable test is available. Well, any good CF experiment is repeatable if you bring enough skill to the task, you devote enough time, and you get enough help. Unless Ohmori is making a horrendous mistake (which I very much doubt), I am sure his test is repeatable, and it is probably easier than the Pons and Fleischmann boil off, which took the French AEC years to master. It seems to work for Ohmori much more consistently than the boil off experiment works for Stan Pons. What I am saying is equivalent to saying that any large semiconductor corporation could second-source the Pentium, with Intel's cooperation. For example, if scientists understood the significance of the work, and they believed the results were real, every national lab in the U.S. and Japan would have a copy of Tom Claytor's tritium generating CF reactor. That machine, and the Pd sparking gadget inside, took years to optimize, and it would take a lot of money to reproduce it. Millions, I suppose, but a large highway overpass near my house cost $100 million, and fighter airplanes cost billions to develop. What I am saying is a repeatable test being "available" describes a state of mine, and a state of your bank account. Available to who? At what price? In what length of time? Anyone who can afford to travel to Hokkaido can spend a week in Ohmori's lab and learn all there is to know about how to do his experiment. Oriani, Miley and I spent many relaxed hours there. But I do not know a single soul, anywhere on earth, who has both the capacity and the will to go, learn, and do. I sure don't! What would be "of much use" to us would be a CF experiment that anyone can master at home in his spare time. I do not think that any such experiment exists or ever will exist. If we are holding out for that, CF will never reach fruition. I think it will always remain somewhat difficult, like producing a high performance alkaline battery, or a superconductor. I do not think anyone pottering around at home could make a battery as good as a Duracell. You can *test* an alkaline battery at home. You can buy a ready-made superconductor in a kit and have fun in your garage. But you cannot reliably make one from raw materials. So what we need, of course, is a reliable CF kit. I hope we can get one someday. I do not think the science will survive without one, because the way things are today, I do not think there is one chance in a million that any other national lab will ever try to replicate Claytor, or that any electrochemist will bother to visit Ohmori. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 11:05:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA07203; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: 11 Apr 97 13:45:34 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Little's KS Curves Message-ID: <970411174534_72240.1256_EHB127-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"_1hYd.0.Km1.5cdJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little writes: In my opinion, Mitchell's analysis of our Kirk Shanahan bead results is a good example of "over-analysis" of data. I agree, emphatically. It is a dangerous practice that frequently leads to erroneous claims of positive results, a problem that has plagued the CF field and many other fields of science. Oh, I don't think it has plagued CF so much. Occasionally, yes. If you will examine the Pflow trace (blue) throughout the entire KS run you will see that it is not perfectly steady but "wobbles" around about +/- 0.05 watts. . . . Anyone who would try to measure 50 mW with a flow calorimeter is out of his mind, in my opinion. It is the wrong choice of instruments, and you shouldn't be trying to measure such low power in the first place. If you must do it, choose a static calorimeter and read every paper by Miles. (Read them several times to make sure you don't miss anything.) Miles must do it because he is trying to capture helium, which requires a small cell to mate with his detection equipment. People who are only trying to measure heat should scale up the device and the reaction a hundred times, or a thousand times. There is no excuse for using a tiny device with a tiny reaction. Larger devices are easier to fabricate, cheaper, easier to use, and they produce results that are far easier to measure with confidence. When you can easily boost the signal, it makes no sense to improve the instrumentation beyond ordinary, easily achieved levels of accuracy and precision. And if you cannot easily boost the signal you should concentrate on improving your CF experimental technique instead of worrying about your instruments. You should aim for a 1 to 10 watt reaction These power levels are convenient to measure with ordinary lab equipment, and you can detect them with absolute confidence. They drown out the noise that Mitch Swartz worries about so much. Suppose cold fusion power density was extremely low. Suppose it took a device the size of house to produce a 100 watt reaction. In that case, we would have no choice, we would have to look for milliwatt reactions in lab-top cells. But that is not the case at all. It does not take an unwieldy cell to produce 1 to 10 watts. In the section of the plot that Mitchell is analyzing, the first Pin plateau which starts at about 0600 on day 4 of the run, the Pflow trace runs about 0.03 watts above Pin for the better part of day 4 . . . I am firmly of the opinion that this behavior is just calorimetry error that happens to show up as an interesting pattern. Even if it wasn't an error -- even if Little was convinced it was excess heat -- it would be nothing to write home about, because: 1. Little did not design the equipment to measure this level, or calibrate for this level. You cannot trust a result you have not carefully prepared in advance to measure. 2. These results would be so marginal that nobody would believe them. I sure wouldn't. 3. Even if you do get a tiny amount of excess heat, unless it persists for a long time, it might be chemical or some other uninteresting phenomenon. You have to scale up and try again anyway. Don't bother publishing first. An experiment designed to measure 3 watts can never be used after the fact to sift out a 30 mW result. At best, this slight evidence of a 30 mW result might encourage the researcher to try again, or to try a different approach that might enhance a hypothetical cause of this hypothetical heat. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 11:15:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA27237; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:10:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:10:50 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:15:08 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: cross section for reaction Resent-Message-ID: <"oLaMA2.0.Uf6.fwdJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] >I suspect the the >formation of cavitation bubbles is a natural process that is very efficient. > Any ideas? > >Frank Znidarsic Some ideas maybe worth another look: (1) I think the critical ingredient may be the seed for the bubble formation. You simply can't get much energy from one bubble, so any successful device will need to have multiple bubble formation sites in the water. It may be that successful Yusmars (assuming there is such a thing) are generating heat based upon what solids are in the water or on the inner surfaces of the device, e.g rust or CaCO3 particles. Improved seeding might be achieved by doping the water with various insoluble particles as seeds. The obvious candidates are solids that might be found in water in the vicinity of where the Yusmars are successful, as well as Al, Ni, Pd, Au, Ag, and Fe compounds. Colloidal gold sounds like a good idea. Considering Chernoble, it could be most any particular thing. The source could be any compound common in rocks or plumbing of the region. It's a needle in the haystack situation, unless you can get your hands on some water and get data from a successful device while in operation. So far, the various trips arranged for such efforts have been unfruitful, so it seems like your odds might be slim. The reason choice of seed is important is that the seed can be expected to remain on the wall of the bubble, and be a signifcant surface at the instant of total collapse. The H ions will be driven into the seed material. One way to identify effective seed material is that it will probably disappear, at least in its orginal size, due to being vaporized. Not too good for repeatability. (2) Add potassium compounds to the water and look for Ca development. (3) "Overdrive" the system using peizo transducers mounted at the top of the column. (4) Design custom hydrolic amplifiers/oscillators to maximize cavitation. (Dump the Yusmar, and redesign.) Probably much bigger pressure pulses over larger volumes can be obtained than that from Yusmar, using the same input energy. (5) Instrument the device with optical fibers to look for light pulses, to assist in tuning flow rates, etc. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 11:18:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA28058; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:16:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:16:05 -0700 Message-ID: <334E7FD8.7716 skylink.net> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:15:52 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A Travelling Field? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2UjN81.0.Ks6.a_dJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer (Schaffer gav.gat.com) writes: > In my initial response to try to help Robert, I > agreed that E should appear at infinite amplitude in thin layers (impulse > of E) at the front and back of the travelling pulse. Wrong. I wrote > quickly off the top of my head and didn't even bother to do a quick sketch > and a couple of equations to verify it. Michael. Thank you for taking a look at this. In my opinion, your initial response (the E field is an impulse) is correct. > Feynman's solution is > correct. The field is uniform E and B inside the wave pulse (as I > described near the beginning of this message). (My mistake was, in my > haste, I equated dE/dt with E. Of course, dE/dt is infinitely large, > because dt is vanishingly small, but when integrated in time, this becomes > a step in E, as in Feynman's solution.) I think you might have wanted to say "a step in H". In either case, I'm not sure about the point of your analysis above. But for sure, Feynman's solution shows a uniform E and B field, which exists everywhere in the space between the source (infinite sheet) and the travelling wave front. > Robert, the current sheet is neutral, consisting of equal positive and > negative charge. Only one species moves to make a current sheet. Before > putting one set of charges in motion, there are no fields, E or B. One > "physical" explanation of where that steady E comes from is the need to > continuously fill space at the leading edge with B as the wave advances at > the speed of light. You "physical" explanation seems unclear. Can we try to look at it another way? Place yourself somewhere near the moving sheet, at at time long after the wave front has passed you by. What will you see? Electrostatically -- two equal and opposite sheets of charge. No E field. Magnetostatically -- a sheet of constant current. A constant H field. In my opinion, there can be no constant E field at your location, as shown in Feynman's solution. How can there be a constant E field in a region in which there are no longer any time varying sources or fields, and there is zero (net) electric charge? If you go to Feynman's drawing, rather than his text, he does not show an equal and opposite sheet of non-moving charge. In which case you would have a constant E field, but it would be a radial/longitudinal E field rather than a transverse E field, and it would result in problems with other parts of his solution. Michael. Perhaps if we could first come to some kind of agreement about Feynman's solution. Maybe we could discuss whether it has anything to do with the retardation (or lack of) in the local/near field, compared with the EM field which escapes from it's source (the travelling EM field). As you say -- It is all one field. And I say -- yes, but comprised of two separate parts which behave remarkably differently. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 12:43:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA08046; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:35:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:35:59 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:37:58 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: cross section for reaction Resent-Message-ID: <"uQuQ43.0.az1.UAfJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Z writes: > Publised reports on sono-lumenscence state pressures >of 100,000 PSI and temperatures of 10,000 deg K. I've been attempeting to >review these conditions with respect to the conventional Lawson Creiteria for >hot inertial confinement fusion. The Lawson criterion is valid only if the plasma is at the proper temperature, in the 10-20 keV (100,000,000-200,000,000 deg K) range. It also applies only for the DT fusion reaction, the one with the largest cross section. At lower temperatures the DT fusion drops rapidly. >anyone every seen any data on how the allignment of nuclear spins my effect >the cross section for reaction? Alignment of the spins can increase the reaction rate. As I recall, the increase is no more than a factor of two. You still have too get really hot, if you're talking thermally driven fusion. The spin alignment technique has the problem of how to keep the nuclei aligned long enough to react. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 12:46:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA08434; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:39:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:39:27 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970411193715.00a77648 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:37:15 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Little's KS Curves Resent-Message-ID: <"p8Pk13.0.i32.kDfJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:45 PM 4/11/97 EDT, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Scott Little writes: > > In my opinion, Mitchell's analysis of our Kirk Shanahan bead results is > a good example of "over-analysis" of data. > >I agree, emphatically. And that spoken by the inventor of the "Rothwell kilowatt" who refuses to readjust his own reported "kilowatt" excess heat signals which he claims he measured in a vertical amplification system. When it was pointed out to him about the amplification factor, he did not want to know about it. Then he claimed it had to do with the position of the thermocouples (it does not). FACT: Analysis over and over and over is important. Then do it again. FACT 2: 10 to 150 milliwatts of real excess heat, IMHO, is more important than any say, "Rothwell kilowatt". In our experience, the more accurate levels also enable better engineering. FACT 3: Jed refuses to even consider to calibrate his reported signals, let alone examine them for noise. That is curious, and not semiquantitative, but there will be scientists, students, and investigators subsequently who will anyway. ================================================ > If you will examine the Pflow trace (blue) throughout the entire KS run > you will see that it is not perfectly steady but "wobbles" around about > +/- 0.05 watts. . . . > >Anyone who would try to measure 50 mW with a flow calorimeter is out of his >mind, in my opinion. One should never use a vertical flow calorimeter for any serious measurement in this field. This is because such reliance on the usual uncorrected equation (which ignores Bernard instability) can yield a spurious amplification factor. IMHO, it is that factor that gives pseudo-kilowatts. Pseudokilowatts appear to fade to much less when the calorimeter becomes static or horizontal flow. If Jed, or anyone else, has any data to the contrary, please let me know at your earliest convenience. ================================================== >You should aim for a 1 to 10 watt reaction These power levels are convenient >to measure with ordinary lab equipment, and you can detect them with absolute >confidence. They drown out the noise that Mitch Swartz worries about so much. So Jed says. Noise, however, can be significant, and if not accounted for can yield spurious and false results, IMHO. To wit: Failure to appreciate noise can yield false "excess heats". IMHO based upon noise analysis, that much of the excess heat of the beads at ICCF-5 was from such driving below the noise level. Am preparing a paper on that, although I have already shared the data with Barry Merriman, Jed, and several others. At least some understand. One supposes it is clear that Jed does not want to correct for the amplification factor, examine what creates it, or even remove the false "positives" which result from driving the systems at input power levels below the noise level. In any case -- scientists, and engineers, and investigators who are more serious will correct for these factors and measure noise, energy storage, contamination, and other, levels. ====================================================== >Even if it wasn't an error -- even if Little was convinced it was excess heat >-- it would be nothing to write home about, because: > >1. Little did not design the equipment to measure this level, or calibrate for >this level. You cannot trust a result you have not carefully prepared in >advance to measure. > Is that a reason not to look, Jed? Perhaps if the cell ran on pickel juice, Jed. ;-)X ==================================================== >2. These results would be so marginal that nobody would believe them. I sure >wouldn't. Is that the reason not to look, Jed? Forgot, you like the silly things you put on the cover of IE. I like the one with the funnel with the very very bright light from electrolysis showing quite a bit of energy, and the little red flame at the top suggesting considerable less energy/cm2. We measured the area, and the white hot flame below was greater too. O/U? :-)X ====================================================== >3. Even if you do get a tiny amount of excess heat, unless it persists for a >long time, it might be chemical or some other uninteresting phenomenon. You >have to scale up and try again anyway. Don't bother publishing first. Of course, unless he agrees to publish it in, Infinite Energy, right, Jed. Maybe you two can get a meeting of the minds to publish only the negative aspects in IE. ;-)X =============================================== Summary: Close analysis ( and reanalysis ) and detailed engineering is the RIGHT thing to do. It may be difficult and tedious, but important. Jed has seized on an inappropriate equation which he uses in his vertical flow system (developed with the PPC beads I believe by Dennis Cravens). That equation at low flow rates, in the present of Bernard instability, yields amplified effects. When Jed quotes the literature he tends to generally ignore highly technical papers and tends to substitute his general "How to .... " papers. However, electrophoretic mobilities, diffusion coefficients, etc are the sine qua non to understanding the phenomena and seriously contributing to the design of these devices. IMHO the future in this field will require technical competance, and individuals who are willing to calibrate, test, and correct for amplification (and degradation) factors, and who are knowledgeable about fields, catalysis, corrosion, metallurgy, and electrical engineering as well as nuclear physics. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 13:07:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA27734; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:57:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704111957.OAA14960 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Little's KS Curves Resent-Message-ID: <"5hZzD3.0.5n6.LVfJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:09 4/11/97 -0400, Mitchell wrote: >You apparently are confused about accuracy versus precision >(reproducibility). "accuracy" tells you how close the measured value is to the true value. We have determined the accuracy of our calorimeter to be +/- 0.05 watts at low power levels. Therefore, when we are putting 0.14 watts into the calorimeter we expect the calorimeter's reading to be between 0.09 and 0.19 watts. All of the KS data in question falls within this error bar and thus is indistinguishable (using this calorimeter) from the expected value of 0.14 watts. Of course we stand by our data, and when it falls within the error bars of the expected value we don't try to ascribe special significance to exactly where it happens to fall. We naturally assume that you do not report positive excess heat results should your data points lie within the error bars of your system. I would think you would hold us to the same standards. >When did you add the water? Never added any water during the KS bead run. It's a flow calorimetry setup with about 60ml of electrolyte in the reservoir and the typical electrolysis current is only 50mA. That works out to about 0.5ml/day loss due to dissociation. > BTW, is this the quality of work you did in your two > pseudo-Ragland type setups? Yes. I have decided to use the same standard on all my experiments: the measured heat output must exceed the error bars before I will report it as "positive excess heat". Do you think this is too conservative, Mitchell? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 14:49:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA10911; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: 11 Apr 97 17:21:50 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Little's KS Curves Message-ID: <970411212150_72240.1256_EHB113-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"8XVO81.0.Lg2.2tgJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I wrote that when you can easily boost the signal, it makes no sense to improve the instrumentation beyond ordinary, easily achieved levels of accuracy and precision. And if you cannot easily boost the signal you should concentrate on improving your CF experimental technique instead of worrying about your instruments. I'd like to point out that I am not the only person who thinks this way. I am nearly quoting Ed Storms, in his conversations with McKubre and me. I discussed his views in my review of EPRI - SRI Report, I.E. #11. What Storms said bears repeating: It is a big mistake to define cold fusion as a problem requiring extraordinarily accurate and precise calorimetry. This is how the "skeptics" want us to define it. By going along with them "we fall into the tar-pit of other people's expectations," as Storms put it. A properly done cold fusion experiment does not require *any* extraordinary level of precision or accuracy, and no "extraordinary proof" -- whatever the hell that is. What we want is plain vanilla proof, the kind that would be instantly accepted in any work-a-day field of science. The heat should be on a scale that would easily be detected even with the most primitive calorimeter, such as you see in a junior-high school science fair or Science Olympiad (such as, , the one my daughter got two first-place prizes in last month). The input to output ratio and the absolute power levels must both be high. I submit that no scientist anywhere on earth would have difficulty confirming a reaction with 1 watt input and 10 watts output. At these power levels, all doubts about noise, sensitivity and the like are absurd. In another message, I managed to include this typo: What I am saying is a repeatable test being "available" describes a state of mine, and a state of your bank account. I mean state of mind, not mine, and not my bank account either. It is depleted enough thanks to all these CF experiments. I am not offering anyone tickets to Hokkaido. In another typo I referred to a lab-top experiment. I guess this is an apparatus a little too big for a "lap-top" but smaller than a "lab bench-top." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 14:51:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA09444; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:18:24 -0400 (EDT) From: John Alexander Lotoski To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: LiOD preparation In-Reply-To: <199704111505.KAA10290 natasha.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"fYnBc1.0.UJ2.9jgJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Scott Little wrote: > Ed, I let some pieces of Li metal float around in a beaker of acetone the > other day for about 15 minutes and noticed a strange whitish growth forming > on the Li pieces...big flaky crystals. Any ideas? Lithium has a very low ionization energy and will react vigourosly with any substance that will accept valence electrons (as you all know). Acetone is the simplest chemical that is classified as a ketone. Two things could be happening; First possibility: The proton adjacent to the ketone function group (C=O) is called the alpha proton and is weakly acidic due to resonance stabilization of the anion. Typically strong bases are used to deprotonate this alpha acidic proton in order to proceed with a general class of chemistry called "enolate" chemistry (something very useful in synthetic applications). Although no alkoxide ions (strong bases) are present in your solution of acetone and lithium metal (unless you have a water impurity in your acetone solution) the lithium metal may react in the following way: 2Li + MeC(=O)Me ---> LiH + CH2=C(-OLi)Me This would happen by a homolytic dissociation of the alpha proton from the methyl group adjacent to the ketone; followed by reduction of both lithium atoms. Giving an enolate and lithium hydride as the final product. Lithium hydride is generally grayish, so it's probably not this rx. You could however test for LiH by adding 1 drop of water to the crystals at LOW temperature (w/ sufficient shielding--the rx will be violent). 1g LiH in water liberates approximately 2.8 L of hydrogen. The enolate is generally not isolated and doesn't crystallize easily. 2nd possibility: A ketone group may react with a alkyl metal in the following way: the pi electron found in the double bond of the carbonyl group (C=O) will rearrange and move to the oxygen once reduction of the metal occurs so that a carbon radical is formed. The rx is: Li. + MeC(=O)Me ---> .C(-OLi)Me2 The '.' character indicates a radical electron. The product is a lithium ketyl radical which apparantly is isolatable (and most likely very highly reactive). I don't have time to find the reference, but if you want to find it for yourself i'll supply it. Ref's: March, Jerry; Advanced Organic Chemistry. 4th ed., John Wiley & Sons, Toronto (1992). Page 916. (Ketyl Chemistry) Rautenstrauch, Geoffroy. J. Am. Chem. Soc. 1976, 98, 5035, 1997, 99, 6280. (Isolated Ketyl Reference) Budavari, Susan. The Merck Index. 12th ed., Merck & Co, Inc, NJ (1996). Page 945. (LiH reference). Radel, Stanley; Navadi, Marjorie; Chemistry. 2nd ed., West Publishing Co, NJ (1994). Page 342. (General metal rx's) PS - Make sure you do your research before you start mixing chemicals. Mixing bases and carbonyl (ketone, aldehyde, ester, etc) compounds often creates *very* reactive products that may be highly toxic and/or explosive. John ---------------------------------------------------------- University Of Waterloo 4th Year. Chemistry / Physics From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 14:53:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA23595; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:27:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:27:46 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970411212508.008f7bd4 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:25:08 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: LiOD preparation Resent-Message-ID: <"rItgX1.0.bm5.HpgJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:05 AM 4/11/97 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >Ed, I let some pieces of Li metal float around in a beaker of acetone the >other day for about 15 minutes and noticed a strange whitish growth forming >on the Li pieces...big flaky crystals. Any ideas? > > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little > > I can only guess that there is a little water in the acetone which reacts with the lithium to form LiOH. LiOH is insoluble in acetone so it comes out as a solid as it forms. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 15:23:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA17199; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:11:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704112211.RAA29418 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: LiOD preparation Resent-Message-ID: <"zrrfE3.0.eC4.rShJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 17:18 4/11/97 -0400, John Alexander Lotoski wrote: > Lithium has a very low ionization energy and will react vigourosly >with any substance that will accept valence electrons (as you all know). Thanks much for the info, John. Are you an organic chemist by profession? (just curious). >PS - Make sure you do your research before you start mixing chemicals. Very good advice! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 15:29:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA26587; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:47:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:47:42 -0700 Date: 11 Apr 97 17:43:39 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Little's KS Curves Message-ID: <970411214339_72240.1256_EHB74-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"rfVY_.0.HV6.z5hJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Mitchell Swartz writes: This is because such reliance on the usual uncorrected equation (which ignores Bernard instability) can yield a spurious amplification factor. IMHO, it is that factor that gives pseudo-kilowatts. Pseudokilowatts appear to fade to much less when the calorimeter becomes static or horizontal flow. If Jed, or anyone else, has any data to the contrary, please let me know at your earliest convenience. This is nonsense. Cravens, McKubre and others who use vertical flow calorimeters have calibrated extensively. The calibrations show no error. The heat energy recovered from the flow balances closely with the energy added to the cell by the joule heater. There are no unexplained fluctuations. During excess heat production, additional energy added by auxiliary heaters is recovered at the expected rates. Therefore, the error that Swartz describes does not and cannot exist. He is trying to prove there is a problem where the calibration shows none. This is like trying to prove that 4.2 joules does not equal 1 calorie. If the calibration did not work, we might have reason to consider his hypothesis. Jed has seized on an inappropriate equation which he uses in his vertical flow system (developed with the PPC beads I believe by Dennis Cravens) . . . Flow systems were not developed by Dennis Cravens. They were developed at the turn of the century. That equation at low flow rates, in the present of Bernard instability, yields amplified effects. The flow rate in the kilowatt cells is 1000 to 1200 ml/minute. That is not low, it is very much higher than any other flow calorimeter I know of. It has to be high, or the water in the cell will come to a boil and the beads will overheat and self-destruct. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 15:37:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA30124; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:09:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:09:53 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970411220731.006b9d8c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:07:31 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Gene Mallove interviewed on NPR Cc: scifri npr.org Resent-Message-ID: <"v9ASK.0.cM7.mQhJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene Mallove and Ira Flatow have made "Talk of the Nation Science Friday" a great 300th episode to remember. Gene gave a great coherent talk on fusion, both hot and cold. He filled in the audience, including a very well-versed host Ira Flatow, on everything the hot fusion representative missed in his reading which avoid the cold fusion literature with a "20-foot pole", as the host mused. Although the entire hour had only two guests, supplemented by some very sharp callers, It may have also been the best NPR interview yet conducted in this field. Don't miss it. The transcripts are available from 1-888 NPR News Hopefully the next show with have a whole hour devoted to cf. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 15:55:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA20936; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <334EBA32.26FB math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:24:50 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little's KS Curves References: <2.2.32.19970411193715.00a77648 world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bdmE42.0.z65.lrhJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > That equation at low flow rates, in the present of > Bernard instability, yields amplified effects. For the record: I agree with M.S. that at "low" flow rates, the bouyant vertical transport of hot fluid could lead to a large spurious heat transport in a vertically positioned flow calorimenter. For e.g., I would think Pattersons orginal work might suffer from this, since the flow rates were sub-ml/min. What I am doubtful of is that it could lead to errors at more moderate flow rates. For example, in my own flow calorimeter illustrated on my web page, with flow in the 10-20 ml/min range I never saw any direct bernard convection effect in the fluid line. I did see a background effect (an "indirect bernard convection effect") due to thermal stratification in the *air in the room* (i.e. the hot air rises, so the ceiling is warmer than the floor by about 1 C), which caused a 0.1--0.2 C delta T in my T probes, where were several inches vertically separated. I doubt that MS's thermal bouyancy effect could contribute to the Rothwell Kilowatt observed at powergen, since the flow rates were liters/min---but, I have never investigated it either. Mitchell: have you actually run the numbers in that case to show your effect is significant in that regime? -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 15:56:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA21355; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <334EA3F8.A0B interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:50:00 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cavitator-Frank Z.-Horace References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vEYXF2.0.aD5.WvhJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > (snip) > (4) Design custom hydrolic amplifiers/oscillators to maximize cavitation. > (Dump the Yusmar, and redesign.) Probably much bigger pressure pulses over > larger volumes can be obtained than that from Yusmar, using the same input > energy. > I am liking these words, Horace! I have been thinking about what a good cavitator I could make using my Sears router. 1. The tool has a no-load speed of about 25,000 RPM and runs with the axis vertical - the cutters extending from a nice little 1/4 inch chuck - downward from the bottom. 2. It would be fairly easy to chuck up a special "agitator rotor" that could extend down into a pyrex glass water volume. 3. The glass container could be setting on a hot plate to permit the out-gassing of the water prior to runs by boiling. 4. The container could also be fitted with a metal (nickel?) baffle with sharp-edged vanes to work against various rotor designs. 5. The glass container would need a good lid with a rotating seal around the rotor shaft - also a vent port for out-gas venting. 6. The rotor could be a modified router bit - although there are so many bits available that a stock bit might make an interesting first try. I see a small bench-top rig with a view angle from the side into the water container - use multiple layers of acrylic window glass or lexan (if your rich!) for a safety shield against a failing rotor. Use a tight shot with a camcorder to monitor the stuff in the dark if that would work. If this rig doesn't do anything interesting, you can use it to stir paint. Set it in the middle of a room without a lid and it will even paint the room for you! Remodeling way too long ------ Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 16:02:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA20801; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <334EBD10.6436 math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:37:04 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little's KS Curves References: <970411212150_72240.1256_EHB113-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"iBlzB2.0.w45.tqhJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > To: Vortex > > Science Olympiad (... the one my daughter got two first-place > prizes in last month). Great! Maybe she can tutor you now(rim-shot! I could not resist :-) > I submit that no scientist anywhere on earth would have > difficulty confirming a reaction with 1 watt input and 10 > watts output. At these power levels, all > doubts about noise, sensitivity and the like are absurd. > I agree. Here is a related thing I always found puzzling, though: Nuclear energy scales are 1,000,000 fold greater than chemical energy scales. Yet "succesful" cold fusion experiments tend to put out roughly as much energy as the chemical energy input. That is an incredible coincidence, given that a nuclear process could in principle put out a million fold more. Seems to me an amazing coincidence that of the enrgy put in, only 1 part in 1 million goes into exciting the nuclear process, so that the net gain is ~ 1. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 17:22:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA18085; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:06:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:06:29 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: fstenger interlaced.net From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Cavitator-Frank Z.-Horace Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:05:47 +0000 Message-ID: <19970412000545.AAA21996 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"krg-S1.0.QQ4.38jJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:50 PM 4/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >(snip) > >> (4) Design custom hydrolic amplifiers/oscillators to maximize cavitation. >> (Dump the Yusmar, and redesign.) Probably much bigger pressure pulses over >> larger volumes can be obtained than that from Yusmar, using the same input >> energy. >> >I am liking these words, Horace! I have been thinking about what >a good cavitator I could make using my Sears router. Be Careful Frank. I made the mistake of putting a 1/4 inch x 3 inch lag bolt in a router chuck once. It whipped it sideways to a 90 degree angle and almost cost me a hand (in about two seconds). Had a mighty sore thumb for a few weeks. > > 1. The tool has a no-load speed of about 25,000 RPM and runs > with the axis vertical - the cutters extending from a nice > little 1/4 inch chuck - downward from the bottom. > 2. It would be fairly easy to chuck up a special "agitator > rotor" that could extend down into a pyrex glass water > volume. > 3. The glass container could be setting on a hot plate to > permit the out-gassing of the water prior to runs by boiling. > 4. The container could also be fitted with a metal (nickel?) > baffle with sharp-edged vanes to work against various rotor > designs. > 5. The glass container would need a good lid with a rotating > seal around the rotor shaft - also a vent port for out-gas > venting. > 6. The rotor could be a modified router bit - although there > are so many bits available that a stock bit might make an > interesting first try. > >I see a small bench-top rig with a view angle from the side into the >water container - use multiple layers of acrylic window glass or >lexan (if your rich!) for a safety shield against a failing rotor. >Use a tight shot with a camcorder to monitor the stuff in the dark if >that would work. > >If this rig doesn't do anything interesting, you can use it to stir >paint. Set it in the middle of a room without a lid and it will >even paint the room for you! > >Remodeling way too long ------ Frank Stenger > > Yes, but you still have two hands and eleven fingers, tonight. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 17:28:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA20017; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:16:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:16:48 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: LiOD preparation Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:16:00 +0000 Message-ID: <19970412001558.AAA27852 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"zURq-2.0.Uu4.kHjJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:18 PM 4/11/97 +0000, John wrote: > > >On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Scott Little wrote: > >> Ed, I let some pieces of Li metal float around in a beaker of acetone the >> other day for about 15 minutes and noticed a strange whitish growth forming >> on the Li pieces...big flaky crystals. Any ideas? > > Lithium has a very low ionization energy and will react vigourosly >with any substance that will accept valence electrons (as you all know). > > Acetone is the simplest chemical that is classified as a ketone. > > Two things could be happening; > >First possibility: > > The proton adjacent to the ketone function group (C=O) is called >the alpha proton and is weakly acidic due to resonance >stabilization of the anion. Typically strong bases are used to >deprotonate this alpha acidic proton in order to proceed with a general >class of chemistry called "enolate" chemistry (something very useful in >synthetic applications). Although no alkoxide ions (strong bases) are >present in your solution of acetone and lithium metal (unless you have a >water impurity in your acetone solution) the lithium metal may react in >the following way: > > 2Li + MeC(=O)Me ---> LiH + CH2=C(-OLi)Me > > This would happen by a homolytic dissociation of the alpha proton >from the methyl group adjacent to the ketone; followed by reduction of >both lithium atoms. Giving an enolate and lithium hydride as the final >product. Lithium hydride is generally grayish, so it's probably not this >rx. You could however test for LiH by adding 1 drop of water to the >crystals at LOW temperature (w/ sufficient shielding--the rx will be >violent). 1g LiH in water liberates approximately 2.8 L of hydrogen. >The enolate is generally not isolated and doesn't crystallize easily. > >2nd possibility: > > A ketone group may react with a alkyl metal in the following way: >the pi electron found in the double bond of the carbonyl group (C=O) will >rearrange and move to the oxygen once reduction of the metal occurs so >that a carbon radical is formed. The rx is: > > Li. + MeC(=O)Me ---> .C(-OLi)Me2 > > The '.' character indicates a radical electron. The product is a >lithium ketyl radical which apparantly is isolatable (and most likely >very highly reactive). I don't have time to find the reference, but if you >want to find it for yourself i'll supply it. > > Ref's: > > March, Jerry; Advanced Organic Chemistry. 4th ed., John Wiley & >Sons, Toronto (1992). Page 916. (Ketyl Chemistry) > > Rautenstrauch, Geoffroy. J. Am. Chem. Soc. 1976, 98, 5035, 1997, >99, 6280. (Isolated Ketyl Reference) > > Budavari, Susan. The Merck Index. 12th ed., Merck & Co, Inc, NJ >(1996). Page 945. (LiH reference). > > Radel, Stanley; Navadi, Marjorie; Chemistry. 2nd ed., West >Publishing Co, NJ (1994). Page 342. (General metal rx's) > >PS - Make sure you do your research before you start mixing chemicals. >Mixing bases and carbonyl (ketone, aldehyde, ester, etc) compounds often >creates *very* reactive products that may be highly toxic and/or >explosive. > > John > >---------------------------------------------------------- > > University Of Waterloo > 4th Year. Chemistry / Physics > A likely possibility. The lithium is reacting with CO2 and water vapor from the air and forming lithium carbonate flakes. That is why lithium is used as a CO2 scrubber in the space program. FJS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 18:24:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA12918; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <334EE1EF.3A50 math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:14:23 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: g-miley uiuc.edu, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, britz@kemi.aau.dk Subject: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challenge References: <2.2.32.19970411220731.006b9d8c world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BxE6t.0.l93.S8kJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: As some folks recall, the original "skeptics vs believers" ("Merriman-Mallove") bet came and went, and I think all must agree that by the letter of the agreement, skeptics won (see http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry/CF/mmbet.html ) That bet was mainly intended to settle rhetorical differences between skeptic and believer camps, i.e. determine which side was spewing the most hot air. But now I would like to propose a more meaningful challenge. The cold fusion "information brokers"---Britz, and those involved in publishing, such as Rothwell, Mallove, Fox and Swartz---frequently criticize the skeptics for not being familiar with the CF literature. I will be the first to admit that this is true: I don't follow the CF literature closely enough to render an informed opinion on most CF work. And I agree whole heartedly with the CF proponents who repeatedly say: before you spout off, read the literature! The reason in my case---and I'm sure in many other scientists case as well---is simple: not enough time in my day to devote careful attention to the 1000+ CF papers out there. So, I propose a CF literature challenge. the basic idea is that the CF proponents find the "top 10" published CF reports, and a group of skeptics will critique this research, and then a group of proponents can also rebut their critiques. The exchange could be published on the web, and also in the various CF journals. If it were a big enough deal, perhaps even Fusion Technology would get involved. Similar skeptic-believer minin-literature reviews have been productive in other controversial fields, such as parapsychology (such as the one on remote viewing recently published in the J. of Scientific Exploration). Any, we could work out the specifics in the future. Right now I'd just like to know what those familiar with the existing literature think about this. The underlying goal is to identify a managable number of highest quality papers that any interested scientist could consider, and to try an force both camps to focus on the positive and negative aspects of the research. Hopefully, some focused effort like this could lead to greater cooperation between CF researchers and mainstream scientists (and funding agencies :-) in the future. Discussion? -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 19:01:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA15967; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970412015020.008eb088 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:50:20 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: LiOD preparation Resent-Message-ID: <"HPre73.0.Ov3.fgkJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:18 PM 4/11/97 -0400, John Loto wrote: > > >On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Scott Little wrote: > >> Ed, I let some pieces of Li metal float around in a beaker of acetone the >> other day for about 15 minutes and noticed a strange whitish growth forming >> on the Li pieces...big flaky crystals. Any ideas? > > Lithium has a very low ionization energy and will react vigourosly >with any substance that will accept valence electrons (as you all know). > > Acetone is the simplest chemical that is classified as a ketone. > > Two things could be happening; > >First possibility: > > The proton adjacent to the ketone function group (C=O) is called >the alpha proton and is weakly acidic due to resonance >stabilization of the anion. Typically strong bases are used to >deprotonate this alpha acidic proton in order to proceed with a general >class of chemistry called "enolate" chemistry (something very useful in >synthetic applications). Although no alkoxide ions (strong bases) are >present in your solution of acetone and lithium metal (unless you have a >water impurity in your acetone solution) the lithium metal may react in >the following way: > > 2Li + MeC(=O)Me ---> LiH + CH2=C(-OLi)Me > > This would happen by a homolytic dissociation of the alpha proton >from the methyl group adjacent to the ketone; followed by reduction of >both lithium atoms. Giving an enolate and lithium hydride as the final >product. Lithium hydride is generally grayish, so it's probably not this >rx. You could however test for LiH by adding 1 drop of water to the >crystals at LOW temperature (w/ sufficient shielding--the rx will be >violent). 1g LiH in water liberates approximately 2.8 L of hydrogen. >The enolate is generally not isolated and doesn't crystallize easily. > >2nd possibility: > > A ketone group may react with a alkyl metal in the following way: >the pi electron found in the double bond of the carbonyl group (C=O) will >rearrange and move to the oxygen once reduction of the metal occurs so >that a carbon radical is formed. The rx is: > > Li. + MeC(=O)Me ---> .C(-OLi)Me2 > > The '.' character indicates a radical electron. The product is a >lithium ketyl radical which apparantly is isolatable (and most likely >very highly reactive). I don't have time to find the reference, but if you >want to find it for yourself i'll supply it. > > Ref's: > > March, Jerry; Advanced Organic Chemistry. 4th ed., John Wiley & >Sons, Toronto (1992). Page 916. (Ketyl Chemistry) > > Rautenstrauch, Geoffroy. J. Am. Chem. Soc. 1976, 98, 5035, 1997, >99, 6280. (Isolated Ketyl Reference) > > Budavari, Susan. The Merck Index. 12th ed., Merck & Co, Inc, NJ >(1996). Page 945. (LiH reference). > > Radel, Stanley; Navadi, Marjorie; Chemistry. 2nd ed., West >Publishing Co, NJ (1994). Page 342. (General metal rx's) > >PS - Make sure you do your research before you start mixing chemicals. >Mixing bases and carbonyl (ketone, aldehyde, ester, etc) compounds often >creates *very* reactive products that may be highly toxic and/or >explosive. > > John > >---------------------------------------------------------- > > University Of Waterloo > 4th Year. Chemistry / Physics > John is most certainly correct. Lithium is a strong reducing agent. All reactions have rates, I did not think that a liquid-solid reaction at room temperature between Li and acetone would occur as quickly as described by Scott. Rinsing might be best done with hexane or cyclohexane. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 19:04:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA15898; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970412015024.008edba8 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:50:24 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Little's KS Curves Resent-Message-ID: <"x8V7O.0.Hu3.8gkJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:37 PM 4/11/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: > >Seems to me an amazing coincidence that of the enrgy put in, only >1 part in 1 million goes into exciting the nuclear process, so >that the net gain is ~ 1. > > Maybe we should be thankful for such a coincidence! Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 19:45:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA06444; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:33:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:33:45 -0700 Message-ID: <334EF4AD.2754 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:34:21 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cavitator-Frank Z.-Horace References: <19970412000545.AAA21996 LOCALNAME> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_AAzz.0.ca1.8IlJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: (About non-standard rotors in routers) > (snip) > Yes, but you still have two hands and eleven fingers, tonight. :-) > GOOD POINT, FREDERICK!!! Yes, never fool with such a high speed device without GREAT respect! Routers require high-strength, precision rotor bits. The cantilever shaft is VERY unstable to unbalance. Tests with such a machine should be treated as an explosion ready to happen! Remote operation is a MUST. Viewing could be done with a well thought out mirror setup or electronically with a video camera. Shielding is a must! Glad you pointed out that such a rig is no joke, Frederick! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 19:59:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA22586; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <334EF533.1889 math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:36:35 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: vortex signal:noise References: <2.2.32.19970411193715.00a77648 world.std.com> <334EBA32.26FB@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"i8yuZ.0.qW5.ZMlJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: By the way---in case no one noticed, Russ George seems to have unsubscribed to Vortex (maybe Bill B. can verify this). Seems in my mind most unfortunate to lose an active CF researcher from the list. But, if folks here insist on discussing science philosophy and freshman E&M physics problems, he probably wont be the last to go. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 20:16:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA24084; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:47:06 -0400 (EDT) From: John Alexander Lotoski To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: LiOD preparation In-Reply-To: <199704112211.RAA29418 natasha.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Kj-ea2.0.Au5.lVlJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Scott Little wrote: > > > Thanks much for the info, John. Are you an organic chemist by profession? > (just curious). Not yet, but getting there. One more year of school :). I just finished taking a synthetic organic course that utilized enolate chemistry extensively. I was happily suprised to see that it (potentially) fit into this disscusion. > >PS - Make sure you do your research before you start mixing chemicals. > > Very good advice! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I've had to learn from some pretty bad mistakes of my own :)... John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 20:25:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA09805; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:53:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:53:12 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:37:48 -0400 (EDT) From: John Alexander Lotoski To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: LiOD preparation In-Reply-To: <19970412001558.AAA27852 LOCALNAME> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"F8AUc3.0.7P2.NalJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >> Ed, I let some pieces of Li metal float around in a beaker of acetone the > >> other day for about 15 minutes and noticed a strange whitish growth forming > >> on the Li pieces...big flaky crystals. Any ideas? > A likely possibility. The lithium is reacting with CO2 and water > vapor from the air and forming lithium carbonate flakes. > That is why lithium is used as a CO2 scrubber in the space program. Good point. Li2CO3 is a white powder. LiOH is also white. Hmm. I wonder. Maybe there is a distribution of different products from all these rx's. > FJS John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 21:12:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA07944; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:42:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:42:31 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:42:11 -0400 (EDT) From: John Alexander Lotoski To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: LiOD preparation In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970412015020.008eb088 freeway.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mxpeM1.0.2y1.NQlJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Edwin Strojny wrote: > John is most certainly correct. Lithium is a strong reducing agent. All > reactions have rates, I did not think that a liquid-solid reaction at room > temperature between Li and acetone would occur as quickly as described by Scott. Fred is also correct in pointing out the atmospheric interactions. I completely forgot about them :). > Rinsing might be best done with hexane or cyclohexane. > > Ed Strojny > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 22:04:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA07078; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: 12 Apr 97 00:40:25 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challen Message-ID: <970412044024_72240.1256_EHB77-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"rx24a.0.Tk1.-AnJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Barry Merriman proposes: So, I propose a CF literature challenge. the basic idea is that the CF proponents find the "top 10" published CF reports . . . That's easy. Any paper written by Storms, McKubre, Miles, Kunimatsu, Pons and Fleischmann, Bockris, Oriani or Claytor will be immune to challenge. I could list a hundred other authors, but those will do. No smart "skeptic" has ever dared to comment on these papers, and none ever will. There are, of course, countless stupid skeptics who think they can knock these papers. They will come up with dozens of hypotheses that they think show a weakness in the papers. But all of these hypotheses are hot air. Perfect nonsense. Hoffman published a book featuring the Giant Error he thought he discovered: he says Ontario Hydro is selling us used heavy water from their Candu reactors. Yeah, right! That's the level of "critique" you will get out of the "skeptics." A classic example of a "skeptic versus CF scientist debate" is the exchange between Morrison and Fleischmann. (I would be happy to e-mail a copy to those who have not read it.) To summarize: Morrison makes absurd mistakes, and Fleischmann cuts him to ribbons. Fleischmann demonstrates that the Morrison hypotheses are either factually wrong, scientifically absurd, or five orders of magnitude too small to explain anything. Unfortunately, nothing is settled because Morrison is too stupid to realize that he has been beaten. . . . and a group of skeptics will critique this research, and then a group of proponents can also rebut their critiques. This is a futile waste of time. The "skeptical" critiques will have no scientific merit. The CF scientists will no longer bother to take the time to correct elementary mistakes and crazy ideas about homicidal Canadians. Even I -- a man blessed with the patience of a saint and the unfailing courtesy of the Orient -- yes, even I am sick of correcting Incredibly Stupid Mistakes. I will no longer take the time to explain to people that the Power Gen demonstration could not have been caused by magic pumping action because the pump consumed only 35 watts and the cell put out 1200, and 1200 > 35. I have told that to Certain People dozens of times, but the message never gets through. They will continue posting these ideas until either: 1. We grow old and die; or 2. Cold fusion is commercialized, and they realize once and for all that they are wrong. The time for debate is long past. The time to read the literature is also long past. In my opinion, if you have not gotten around to reading Miles yet, you should be ashamed to post a message or hold an opinion about cold fusion. It is as if we are talking about classical music and you have never bothered to listen to Beethoven. What the hell can you possibly know about any subject if you have not read the original literature? Other people's opinions and digests will teach you nothing if you have no bedrock knowledge of your own. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 22:19:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA22910; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:58:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:58:43 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:58:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704120458.XAA01426 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challenge Resent-Message-ID: <"Gkvse.0.ub5.2QnJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:14 PM 4/11/97 -0700, Barry M wrote: >So, I propose a CF literature challenge. the basic idea is that >the CF proponents find the "top 10" published CF reports, and >a group of skeptics will critique this research, and then a group >of proponents can also rebut their critiques. >Discussion? I like the idea and would be glad to participate. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 22:22:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA24476; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:15:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:15:41 -0700 Date: 12 Apr 97 00:40:10 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Little's KS Curves Message-ID: <970412044010_72240.1256_EHB77-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"IYkOU2.0.L-5.yfnJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Barry Merriman writes: Nuclear energy scales are 1,000,000 fold greater than chemical energy scales. Yet "successful" cold fusion experiments tend to put out roughly as much energy as the chemical energy input. That is incorrect. In successful electrochemical cold fusion experiments much more heat energy comes out than the chemical energy input. If the two are close, then excess is small in percentage terms, and that is not a very successful outcome. Furthermore, in gas loaded experiments and heat after death no chemical energy is input, yet the energy coming from the cells often exceeds the limits of chemistry by orders of magnitude. I cannot imagine where Barry got the idea that input balances output. What does he think "300% excess" means? If this was not meant as a joke it is a bizarre misunderstanding. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 22:37:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA11823; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970412052836.006b7a8c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:28:36 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Barry Merriman From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challenge Resent-Message-ID: <"rErUk3.0.du2.AunJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:14 PM 4/11/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: >As some folks recall, the original "skeptics vs believers" >("Merriman-Mallove") bet came and went, and I think all must >agree that by the letter of the agreement, skeptics won >(see http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry/CF/mmbet.html ) > >That bet was mainly intended to settle rhetorical differences >between skeptic and believer camps, i.e. determine which side >was spewing the most hot air. > That's easy. Hot fusion and some of its TB-skeptics. Only some, because many like yourself are sticking to the science. However the TB-skeptic-hot-air-spewers are still doing it on s.p.f. Those that read the least, who have explored scientifically the least, often seem to talk the most. ============================================== >But now I would like to propose a more meaningful challenge. >The cold fusion "information brokers"---Britz, and those >involved in publishing, such as Rothwell, Mallove, >Fox and Swartz---frequently criticize the skeptics for >not being familiar with the CF literature. > >I will be the first to admit that this is true: I don't follow the >CF literature closely enough to render an informed opinion on most >CF work. And I agree whole heartedly with the CF proponents who >repeatedly say: before you spout off, read the literature! >The reason in my case---and I'm sure in many other scientists >case as well---is simple: not enough time in my day to devote >careful attention to the 1000+ CF papers out there. > There are over 4000 papers, with 900+ positives. =================================================== >So, I propose a CF literature challenge. the basic idea is that >the CF proponents find the "top 10" published CF reports, and >a group of skeptics will critique this research, and then a group >of proponents can also rebut their critiques. The exchange could >be published on the web, and also in the various CF journals. What is the likelihood that any one group will agree on 10 papers of the hundreds of good ones? And what difference does it make if errors are present in a paper? If they are minor, it is easy to academically pick it to pieces ad libitem. And what paper, or group, or research project, does not have some errors? Even some of the putative "negative" papers? Therefore, have an alternate and slightly more balanced suggestion, below. ======================================================= >If it were a big enough deal, perhaps even Fusion Technology would >get involved. Similar skeptic-believer minin-literature reviews >have been productive in other controversial fields, such as >parapsychology (such as the one on remote viewing recently published >in the J. of Scientific Exploration). > >Any, we could work out the specifics in the future. Right now >I'd just like to know what those familiar with the existing literature >think about this. The underlying goal is to identify a managable >number of highest quality papers that any interested scientist could >consider, and to try an force both camps to focus on the >positive and negative aspects of the research. >Hopefully, some focused effort like this could lead to greater >cooperation between CF researchers and mainstream scientists (and >funding agencies :-) in the future. > >Discussion? > It is a positive idea, but focuses on the past, and perhaps on work of others, and may focus on minutae. Therefore: Here is counter offer/suggestion ---- A COLD FUSION FOCUSED DEBATE IN CAMBRIDGE, MA. How about we get 10 cf researchers whose papers have been peer review published, and 10 TB-skeptics who got their peer reviewed papers published, and have a go of that. Each side gets the others papers. Now THAT is balanced. Perhaps at MIT this January? Used to chair the January IAP meeting at MIT on cold fusion (some years with Gene and Richard Shyduroff, and would seriously consider submitting this for this January. We could get people there who want to ACTIVELY be present to debate, and perhaps link the rest via the web, it would be interesting, entertaining, and possibly useful. Perhaps something like (this is tentative, has not been suggested or accepted, nor even discussed with anyone at all making this bu a pregnant gossamer of a thought: The GREAT COLD FUSION DEBATE OF '98 January 1998, MIT perhaps room 6-120 Merriman S. Jones Storms J. Jones Claytor Hagelstein Blue Huzienga D. Morrison P. Morrison Hugo Swartz Cravens Melich Britz Bush Szpak Bockris Mizuno Mallove Miley Kucherof Notoya Miles Fleischmann Pons Kennel ... etc. until 20 or whatever, 10 on each side (or less, but balanced). (Sorry to anyone left out inadvertantly in haste; because I would expand it to two days to include everyone) How is that for a start, Barry? We limit it to the science. Is there excess heat? Is there ash? Is there a theory? Is there cold fusion? Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 22:46:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA11996; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:31:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704120531.AAA03525 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challen Resent-Message-ID: <"Effu63.0.Jx2.9vnJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:40 AM 4/12/97 EDT, Jed wrote: >That's easy. Any paper written by Storms, McKubre, Miles, Kunimatsu, Pons and >Fleischmann, Bockris, Oriani or Claytor will be immune to challenge. Slightly tangent to this discussion: I visited Tom Claytor earlier this year and was most impressed with his experimental evidence for the creation of tritium in arc discharges between Pd electrodes in a deuterium atmosphere. Tom has devised 2 or 3 really independent ways of confirming that he is actually creating tritium instead of simply collecting it or extracting it from some subtle source. Detecting tritium involves counting its beta emission which is a technology that I understand well enough to be totally convinced by Tom's data, especially with all the cross-checks he has done. Barry, I guarantee that you would be impressed as well. Tom's biggest "problem" is the tiny rate at which his present experiment produces tritium. It takes several days for enough tritium to accumulate to be noticed by his very sensitive detectors. As I understand it, management at LANL is somewhat disappointed that he can't make it explode...:-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 22:47:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA11928; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970412052919.006a3f98 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:29:19 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Potential Factors which Might Increase the Purported Power Gain Resent-Message-ID: <"5wY8C2.0.Iw2.iunJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:24 PM 4/11/97 -0700, Barry wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: >> >> That equation at low flow rates, in the present of >> Bernard instability, yields amplified effects. > >For the record: I agree with M.S. that at "low" flow rates, >the bouyant vertical transport of hot fluid could lead >to a large spurious heat transport in a vertically positioned >flow calorimenter. For e.g., I would think Pattersons orginal >work might suffer from this, since the flow rates were >sub-ml/min. > >What I am doubtful of is that it could lead to errors at more >moderate flow rates. For example, in my own flow calorimeter illustrated >on my web page, with flow in the 10-20 ml/min range I never saw any >direct bernard convection effect in the fluid line. >I did see a background effect (an "indirect bernard convection effect") >due to thermal stratification in the *air in the room* (i.e. the >hot air rises, so the ceiling is warmer than the floor by about >1 C), which caused a 0.1--0.2 C delta T in my T probes, where >were several inches vertically separated. > Barry, Both are correct, and you actually did correct for it in an alternative way by zeroing your system as you discuss on your web page. Well done. The critical range of flow depends upon the delta T. Can you imagine that for the case where the flow MUST be increased to prevent boiling, that convective Bernard instability MIGHT be greater than at lower delta T? It is, and therefore the critical flow below which the amplification occurs is correspondingly greater. I believe Jed's delta T in that experiment was about 6 to 7 C, on one day and 16 to 17 C on the other day, in those expts. ==================================== >I doubt that MS's thermal bouyancy effect could contribute to the >Rothwell Kilowatt observed at powergen, since the flow rates were >liters/min---but, I have never investigated it either. Mitchell: >have you actually run the numbers in that case to show your >effect is significant in that regime? > There seem to be several methods of analysis which show concern. Here are a few, you can probably find a few more. If memory serves, the first was the failure to have adequate thermal radiation of heat from the fluid flow phase (a la Mitchell Jones). That was a calculation which was not disputed and did indicate an amplification factor. The second was that there were some additional issues regarding the near equilibrium flow rate, vol, delta -T, calculation indicated also less than a true kilowatt. I posted this at the time. The third is that there are also the positional effects of the vertical calorimetry. Barry, in your system you corrected for some of this, including the vertical flow effect for the baseline setting. In the most recent Patterson/Cravens patent they too corrected for this, although the sign appears that it may be wrong because the patent discusses a number like ( -0.3 C (cant find it so this is by memory)). Actually such a delta-T of less than zero would mean that hot water falls in the PCC-Cravens setup, so methinks this might be an error. Do you have the patent? Could you check? Do you agree? Where is the data for static or horizontal calorimetry? It certainly would satisfy all questions of this if it had adequate baseline, and noise measurement. Fourth, the cell used by Jed in those expts was 40 cc. At a true kilowatt, that is a deltaT of almost 72C in 15 seconds!! (true, this ignores other losses, flow etc.) Such a static system would be unambiguous. Fifth, there were questions regarding the need for inline flow measurements rather than assuming the flow was the same during the expt as without the same hydrostatic pressure head during the flow measurement. Check the archives, although methinks you know what I mean. Sixth, there were the incremental locoregional Magnum pump, and 3.5 watt cooling fan, etc. that may have had an incremental impact in such flow expts. Not sure this was resolved sufficiently. Finally, and this is more suggestive, but must be considered given number four, when we have had sustained powers of ~100 watts, there has been on occasion considerable damage to at least some components. I believe I showed you some of the material damage characteristically seen on occasion, at ILENR2. To put this in perspective; a soldering iron is 25 watts, and a soldering gun is 45 watts. Jed claims more than a kilowatt, but ALL the plastic and components, IMHO, looks suprisingly .... , well, clean. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 22:57:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA28007; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:30:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:30:54 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970412052901.006a9c80 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:29:01 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Little's KS Curves - Vertical Calorimetry Resent-Message-ID: <"OfVPT3.0.Sr6.DunJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:43 PM 4/11/97 EDT, Jed wrote: >Mitchell Swartz writes: > This is because such reliance on the usual uncorrected equation (which > ignores Bernard instability) can yield a spurious amplification factor. > IMHO, it is that factor that gives pseudo-kilowatts. > Pseudokilowatts appear to fade to much less when the calorimeter becomes > static or horizontal flow. If Jed, or anyone else, has any data to the > contrary, please let me know at your earliest convenience. > >This is nonsense. Why? Nothing you write is making it go away. Furthermore, I am not even convinced you know (or care) either what a convective derivative or a Bernard instability is. You claim the heats are enough to almost bring the solution to "a boil" (see below), but you deny there is convection from buoyancy differences secondary to temperature. That would be paradoxical if real. =============================================================== >Cravens, McKubre and others who use vertical flow >calorimeters have calibrated extensively. The calibrations show no error. Really. That is not the information which I have. For a start, take a look at Pattersons most recent patent. Note that Cravens and Patterson correct for the Bernard instability. However, please note that they claim delta-T is negative in their control which presumes that warm water sinks. Therefore, without certifying their claims, which may have an error of -1 here in the correction, note that they do cite at least cite an error. Contrary to Jed's claim, calibrations do show an error. Such is cited in the Patterson/Cravens recent patent; and Barry Merriman also corrected for that error. Another question is: Does one simple correction hold for all flow levels and heats in the entire vertical flow calorimetric experiment. =========================================================== > If the calibration did not work, we might have reason to >consider his hypothesis. No problem. Just boil the water with kilowatt power in a static experiment. Just make it work in a static experiment. Do you have the data? Just show me that delta-T in a static experiment, and you have my mea culpa and increased respect. Lets see 1 kilowatt means your 50 cc will boil in about 15 seconds right? The delta-T, all other losses ignored for this approximation, would be about 71.7 C for that 15 seconds. That static calorimetric test would be convincing for a kilowatt, Jed. A horizontal flow test would also be convincing in most settings too. ==================================================== > Jed has seized on an inappropriate equation which he uses in his > vertical flow system (developed with the PPC beads I believe by Dennis > Cravens) . . . > >Flow systems were not developed by Dennis Cravens. They were developed at the >turn of the century. > Jed does not disagree that it is inappropriate, or that he relies upon vertical calorimetric systems in the kilowatt setup (and please correct me if this is not true). Jed is wrong. The line says PPC beads AND vertical flow system, which I believe was developed by Cravens, and not the Wright brothers, Jed. ;-)X ================================================ > > That equation at low flow rates, in the present of Bernard instability, > yields amplified effects. > >The flow rate in the kilowatt cells is 1000 to 1200 ml/minute. That is not >low, it is very much higher than any other flow calorimeter I know of. It has >to be high, or the water in the cell will come to a boil and the beads will >overheat and self-destruct. > Jed, if it will come to "a boil" dont you think that there MIGHT BE some convection at those temperatures in water? Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 22:59:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA13934; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970412054643.006beba8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:46:43 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Lit SAVE Resent-Message-ID: <"QMhkk3.0.UP3.F9oJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:57 PM 4/11/97 -0500, Scott wrote: >"accuracy" tells you how close the measured value is to the true value. We >have determined the accuracy of our calorimeter to be +/- 0.05 watts at low >power levels. That definition is correct, and here is what you posted. >If you will examine the Pflow trace (blue) throughout the entire KS run you >will see that it is not perfectly steady but "wobbles" around about +/- 0.05 >watts. This is typical behavior for this calorimeter and has led to my >statement in the Dual-method calorimeter writeup, "Measurement accuracy was >determined from the calibration runs and for both methods is typically about >+/- 0.05 watts ". Actually that seems like precision, doesnt it, and not an accuracy test. IMHO, an accuracy test usually requires testing against a standard. For one of the points, we often use an Omega Ice Point Cell for one point in the accuracy certification tests. We use about half a dozen probes at a time against that standard to test for accuracy at 0 degrees (C). Each of the selected probes is then corrected for those factors. The distribution of that group is the range of accuracy. Scott, how do you qualify your thermometry with respect to drift, and accuracy? ======================================================== > Therefore, when we are putting 0.14 watts into the >calorimeter we expect the calorimeter's reading to be between 0.09 and 0.19 >watts. All of the KS data in question falls within this error bar and thus >is indistinguishable (using this calorimeter) from the expected value of >0.14 watts. > Your data shows the possibility of very low level excess heat for a solid number of hours, a length of time which readers of vortex would like to know. How many hours? Any do you stand behnd your data? Did you add up the numbers for that curve? Are my error bars correct (they are 3 standard deviations) in the curve of Pout/Pin as a function of drive current? Did you actually print it out yourself and examine the error bars? Were the numbers in the graph accurate? ====================================== >> BTW, is this the quality of work you did in your two >> pseudo-Ragland type setups? > >Yes. I have decided to use the same standard on all my experiments: the >measured heat output must exceed the error bars before I will report it as >"positive excess heat". Do you think this is too conservative, Mitchell? No. Perhaps not conservative enough. You trust vertical calorimetry. also your other heat measurement is not really close to the numbers you claim. There are sensitivities, and time constants, which appear significant in your data. Also, your system has problems or issues, including the following, to which you have not responded. How did you estimate, or measure, your noise power level? Why do you think open line flow measurements at one point in time hold for all time in a closed flow system? Where is the initial baseline before the loading? How many hours of excess heat (very low level, and uncalibrated because it was measured in a vertical flow calorimeter which can amplify the effect) did you see? 16 hours, Scott? Scott, one of the toughest thing in life is to describe the very thing in front of your eyes. Why dont you describe what you did? Do you understand the potential amplification effect of a vertical flow calorimeter? Why do you trust vertical flow calorimetry as much as horizontal or static? If the excess heat was 30 milliwatts and was real (** and I believe it is amplified because you use a vertical flow calorimeter, as have published extensively), do you agree it is a TINY but important signal? If you have "inadequate and unstable thermal mixing of the exit electrolyte stream" as you claim, making your calorimeter is defective, what gives you the right to knockthe KS bead technology, or any other aspect of cf, with your thereby admittedly insensitive equipment? Finally, Scott, given your best quote ever >"The data is not sufficiently accurate to warrant such analysis." Scott, please inform us why you are even trying to test these devices, or waste bandwidth by posting data you wont even stand behind because it is "not sufficiently accurate" when collected in an Earthwatch calorimetric system. Could you describe exactly what kind of analysis IS your data accurate enough to warrant? It seems reasonable that Scott must decide if his data is accurate or not. Am looking forward to his answers, as may be many on vortex. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 23:03:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA31160; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:48:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:48:29 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970412054635.006cdff4 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:46:35 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Little's KS Curves - Part III Resent-Message-ID: <"PmgZi3.0.oc7.i8oJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:57 PM 4/11/97 -0500, Scott wrote: > Therefore, when we are putting 0.14 watts into the >calorimeter we expect the calorimeter's reading to be between 0.09 and 0.19 >watts. All of the KS data in question falls within this error bar and thus >is indistinguishable (using this calorimeter) from the expected value of >0.14 watts. > Your data shows the possibility of very low level excess heat for a solid number of hours, a length of time which readers of vortex would like to know. Regarding your KS curves: How many hours? And do you stand behnd your data? Did you add up the numbers for that curve? Do you not look because it was not "what you were expecting"? Regarding our plot of your Pflow/Current in Data: Are my error bars correct (they are 3 standard deviations) in the curve of Pout/Pin as a function of drive current? Were the numbers for the averages in that graph accurate? Did you actually print it out yourself and examine the error bar widths? ====================================== >> BTW, is this the quality of work you did in your two >> pseudo-Ragland type setups? > >Yes. I have decided to use the same standard on all my experiments: the >measured heat output must exceed the error bars before I will report it as >"positive excess heat". Do you think this is too conservative, Mitchell? No. Perhaps not conservative enough. You trust vertical calorimetry. also your other heat measurement is not really close to the numbers you claim. There are sensitivities, and time constants, which appear significant in your data. Also, your system has problems or issues, including the following, to which you have not responded. How did you estimate, or measure, your noise power level? Why do you think open line flow measurements at one point in time hold for all time in a closed flow system? Where is the initial baseline before the loading? How many hours of excess heat (very low level, and uncalibrated because it was measured in a vertical flow calorimeter which can amplify the effect) did you see? 16 hours, Scott? Scott, one of the toughest thing in life is to describe the very thing in front of your eyes. Why dont you describe what you did? Do you understand the potential amplification effect of a vertical flow calorimeter? Why do you trust vertical flow calorimetry as much as horizontal or static? If the excess heat was 30 milliwatts and was real (** and I believe it is amplified because you use a vertical flow calorimeter, as have published extensively), do you agree it is a TINY but important signal? If you have "inadequate and unstable thermal mixing of the exit electrolyte stream" as you claim, making your calorimeter is defective, what gives you the right to knockthe KS bead technology, or any other aspect of cf, with your thereby admittedly insensitive equipment? Finally, Scott, there is not a conservative feeling given your statement: little= "The data is not sufficiently accurate to warrant such analysis." Scott, please inform us why you are even trying to test these devices, or waste bandwidth by posting data you wont even stand behind because it is "not sufficiently accurate" when collected in an Earthwatch calorimetric system. Could you describe exactly what kind of analysis IS your data accurate enough to warrant? In summary: It seems reasonable that Scott must decide if his data is accurate or not. Am also looking forward to his answers, as may be many on vortex who are interested in this field. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 23:11:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA01359; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:07:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:07:56 -0700 Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:07:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704120607.BAA05374 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: vortex signal:noise Resent-Message-ID: <"pb_SX1.0.8L.xQoJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:36 PM 4/11/97 -0700, Barry wrote: >Seems in my mind most unfortunate to lose an active CF >researcher from the list. But, if folks here insist on >discussing science philosophy and freshman E&M physics problems, >he probably wont be the last to go. We lost Dieter Britz a while back. He told me that he couldn't stand the noise level. As far as I know he was Vortex's only electrochemist. Also Kirk Shanahan has bailed out. He told me that he couldn't stand the noise level. Kirk actually made his own CETI-style beads (subject of recent discussion) and was definitely an active contributor. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 23:13:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA15190; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:06:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704120606.BAA05329 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challenge Resent-Message-ID: <"g1BDz.0.Cj3.MQoJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:28 AM 4/12/97 -0400, Mitchell wrote: > Therefore, have an alternate and slightly more balanced >suggestion, below. Now we're getting somewhere. Thanks for the direction, Mitchell. Barry's idea sounded good at first, then Mitchell's sounded better, but then I realized that both ideas could easily end up in a stalemate shouting match...each side just mad at the other...nothing resolved. What I think this field really needs is multi-lab replication of the same CF experiment. CETI tried this with the Rifex kit but, apparently the legal agreement turned off a lot of potential investigators. The Ragland triode cell is a definite candidate and, if I or JedGeneChris can get it to work reliably then it'll suffice nicely for such a project. In the latest issue of Cold Fusion Times, Mitchell's advertisement implies that he already has developed the necessary goods for this project. Mitchell, how many of those Pi-NOTCH -Tested Nickel Electrodes can you make in, say, a month's time? How many do you already have on hand? How much does it cost you to make one? (we could arrange funding for them) Hopefully we could line up, say, 10 labs around the country with some kind of track record at calorimetry and send each lab the same electrode and a rigid protocol to follow in using it. If all of those labs got the same positive result, it would HAVE to put CF on the same footing that HTSC was when labs started replicating Chu's YCBO recipe! proposed labs/groups that I suspect would participate: Claytor McKubre Mallove/Tinsley Earthtech Merriman Mike Schaeffer Steven Jones Kucherov (ENECO) Miley Kennel (NHE) others? comments? Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 23:19:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA15463; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970412060909.006a88bc world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 02:09:09 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Little's KS Curves Resent-Message-ID: <"dJKtL2.0.Xn3.8UoJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:37 PM 4/11/97 -0700, Barry wrote: >Nuclear energy scales are 1,000,000 fold greater than chemical >energy scales. Yet "succesful" cold fusion experiments tend to >put out roughly as much energy as the chemical energy input. >That is an incredible coincidence, given that a nuclear process >could in principle put out a million fold more. > >Seems to me an amazing coincidence that of the enrgy put in, only >1 part in 1 million goes into exciting the nuclear process, so >that the net gain is ~ 1. > > Barry, good question. First, it is not true that the output has roughly the chemical energy input. When CF was announced the levels were 10 W/cm3 for Pd. Now nickel has that power capacity, and Pd ranges from 1000-2500 W/cm3. Thus the power capacities have increased with time since 1989, AND are greater than chemical energy input. Second, considering the ratio you state, (and presumably you meant electrical energy input) the power gain goes as <<1, to as high as ~30+x in some of our best experiments with the best electrode systems. So it also does not appear to be true that the net gain is ~ 1. Given the increases in power capacity (vide supra), in another 5 years, the peak power gain may go up by another order of magnitude if the trajectory of increases keep occurring in this field. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 23:37:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA17092; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970412062909.006e7600 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 02:29:09 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challenge Resent-Message-ID: <"_JyKM.0.-A4.zmoJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:31 AM 4/12/97 -0500, Scott wrote: I visited Tom Claytor earlier this >year and was most impressed with his experimental evidence for the creation >of tritium in arc discharges between Pd electrodes in a deuterium >atmosphere. Tom has devised 2 or 3 really independent ways of confirming >that he is actually creating tritium instead of simply collecting it or >extracting it from some subtle source. Detecting tritium involves counting >its beta emission which is a technology that I understand well enough to be >totally convinced by Tom's data, especially with all the cross-checks he has >done. ... >Tom's biggest "problem" is the tiny rate at which his present experiment >produces tritium. It takes several days for enough tritium to accumulate to >be noticed by his very sensitive detectors. Scott. Totally agree with your assessment of his setup and contribution. Only comment is this. Small levels of true signals are not a problem if the noise is considered. For example, lets consider, this experiment. You say he has a "problem". His levels are 0.1 to 0.2 nanocuries/hour with a background drift of 0.002 - 0.02 nCi/hr. Over hundreds of hours this reportedly amounts to foreground batch runs of 25x backgound levels with light water-Pd, and 100x the background of the gas. As Tom says, "Furthermore, the rate of triutium evolution in the sealed system may be the most sensitive and rapid indicator of anomalous nuclear behavior in deuterided metals". Therefore, when noise is considered, it doesn't really sound like a problem. The problem is getting the skeptics to understand that this ash, and the helium-4, and maybe even hydrinos (since He-4 does not account for 100% of the heat) and deuterium production play a role. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 23:42:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA00901; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:05:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:05:22 -0700 Message-ID: <334F2794.5777 loc1.tandem.com> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:11:32 -0800 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Scott's measurements Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RN5KL3.0._D.XOoJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell wrote to Scott Little: "your hope to be "testing board" of the field without your reading every paper in the literature, or having even achieved one positive cf experiment makes one suspect your own sincerity, Scott." I must strongly disagree. The lack of positive results just increases his credibility once he reports excess. If reading every paper in a field was required to make a contribution, no progress would ever be made. And anyone who has met Scott would not doubt his sincerity. For me, CF will cross an important threshhold once Scott reports excess heat on an experiment. My reasons are: 1. Scott's dual-method calorimeter is a fine piece of equipment. He has run many calibration runs, and has freely shared the results. I have no doubt that it can easily measure 1 watt of excess with no ambiguity. 2. A positive result will mean that an experiment is reproducable enough that it can show significant excess heat under slightly different conditions than the original lab. This may encourage more Vortexians to try the experiment and generate more interesting discussions here. 3. Scott has shown that he is not afraid to disclose negative results. If he reports a positive result, we will be fairly sure he has not talked himself into seeing a result that is not there. I am convinced that he would never claim a positive result if the measurement was within possible instrument error. (From the recent discussion, it is not clear that the same can be said for Mitchell.) 4. Scott will publish his results on Vortex (if legally allowed) and we will all get a chance to ask him questions about the experiment and measurement procedures. -- Bob Horst From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 11 23:55:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA09337; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:47:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:47:36 -0700 Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:47:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704120647.BAA07454 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Final comment on KS bead data Resent-Message-ID: <"oVZ1-1.0.mH2.70pJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: sigh....At 01:46 AM 4/12/97 -0400, Mitchell wrote a bunch more stuff about our calorimetry. After raising a number of pertinent questions that would deserve and receive detailed responses if there was any excess heat signal to talk about, he gets right down to the critical issue here: >Could you describe exactly what kind of analysis IS your data >accurate enough to warrant? Happy to oblige. First, all measured heat output power values from our calorimeter that are within the stated error limits (e.g. +/- 0.05 watts) of the measured input power must be considered equal to the actual input power and therefore no useful analysis can be performed on such readings. Readings that are outside the stated error limits of the actual input power can be considered significant and the analysis of your choice may be performed on them. Examples include; computing the ratio of the measured heat output power to the measured input power, computing the difference between them, etc. Our calorimeter would therefore be well suited to measuring the excess heat from one of your Pi-NOTCH -Tested Nickel Electrodes that, according to your advertisement, consume 2.5 watts of input power and produce, for example, 1.5 watts of excess heat. In our calorimeter that excess heat signal would be 15 times larger than our error bar. Our calorimeter is incapable of measuring 30 milliwatts of excess heat. Would it help if I made up a special hammer with this last statement engraved on the face of it and pounded it into your skull?...:-) Seriously, Mitchell, I have long regarded you as an extremely intelligent and well educated member of this forum. We haven't always seen eye to eye on various issues that have arisen but I have always valued and respected your knowledge. This latest thing, however, has seriously undermined my confidence in your ability to make reliable measurements! Why do you persist in trying to read significant excess heat out of data that is within our error bar of the input power? The patterns you think are significant are just small fluctuating systematic errors that SHOULD BE IGNORED. This is my final statement on this particular subject. We have discussed it ad nauseum with no visible progress and it's high time to move on. After you have had the last jab, I expect you to do the same. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 00:10:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA20217; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 02:02:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704120702.CAA08199 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challenge Resent-Message-ID: <"uj1T53.0.px4.wEpJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:29 AM 4/12/97 -0400, Mitchell wrote: > Therefore, when noise is considered, it doesn't really >sound like a problem. Agree with yr signal/noise analysis. Tom's problem is not a technical one...it is a political one. If he could make the effect "explode" he'd get a lot more support for the research. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 00:17:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA18389; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:13:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:13:40 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970412071141.006b7aec world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 03:11:41 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Little's KS bead data - Part V Resent-Message-ID: <"jDrNo.0.FV4.ZOpJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:47 AM 4/12/97 -0500, Scott wrote: >Our calorimeter is incapable of measuring 30 milliwatts of excess heat. >Would it help if I made up a special hammer with this last statement >engraved on the face of it and pounded it into your skull?...:-) Violence wont help your argument with me Scott, only science. I only asked if you looked at the curves, and if the error bars I drew were correct. What is the problem? Is the median correct? yes or no? Are the error bars the correct 3 standard deviations. You were the experimenter, and I am only trying to check for accuracy. Also, did you plot Pflow vs. Pin and then I(ma)? ================================= >Seriously, Mitchell, I have long regarded you as an extremely intelligent >and well educated member of this forum. We haven't always seen eye to eye >on various issues that have arisen but I have always valued and respected >your knowledge. This latest thing, however, has seriously undermined my >confidence in your ability to make reliable measurements! Why do you >persist in trying to read significant excess heat out of data that is within >our error bar of the input power? The patterns you think are significant >are just small fluctuating systematic errors that SHOULD BE IGNORED. Seriously, Scott, this is your equipment, this was your experiment, and the data is not fluctuating at that point, but appears for quite a while to be above the drive level. Is that not correct? It does NOT fluctuate. I have seen other places where you calorimeter does fluctuate, and as you know we have discussed it both by email and in vortex. Thus, I understand the accuracy issue, but these two curves, at the lowest drive level were tracking prior to the current increase, were they not? Remember, I am not saying there was excess heat there, but it is THE PLACE TO LOOK. Scott, this episode is making me seriously consider that you are unable or unwilling to make reliable observations of your own data. Also, to attack messengers of questions seems hardly the way to encourage reviewers. IMHO you should further to consider or examine the KS system near THAT LOW DRIVE LEVEL. Please consider that higher drive levels would have LESS efficiency as the pi-NOTCH and quasi-one-dimensional derivations make clear. Do you at least agree with that issue of decreased efficiency at increased drive levels due to increased gas evolution? Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 00:31:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA19968; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:26:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:26:50 -0700 Date: 12 Apr 97 03:21:35 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Subject: Re: Cavitator-Frank Z.-Horace Message-ID: <970412072135_100060.173_JHB62-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"gWMYG1.0.wt4.vapJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, >> I see a small bench-top rig with a view angle from the side into the water container - use multiple layers of acrylic window glass or lexan (if your rich!) for a safety shield against a failing rotor. << My wife has something just like this - its called a food processor. Just think of all the CF ou being generated in all the kitchens of the developed world by the cavitation induced by the whipping of eggs and cream etc. Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 00:34:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA20358; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:29:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:29:47 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970412072748.006b9efc world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 03:27:48 -0400 To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Scott's measurements Resent-Message-ID: <"mrs8b.0.yz4.gdpJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:11 PM 4/11/97 -0800, Bob Horst made some correct, interesting and reasonable comments, but there is one to which I must respond. Bob Horst wrote: =3. Scott has shown that he is not afraid to disclose negative results. =If he reports a positive result, we will be fairly sure he has not =talked himself into seeing a result that is not there. I am convinced =that he would never claim a positive result if the measurement was =within possible instrument error. = (From the recent discussion, it is =>not clear that the same can be said for Mitchell.) FYI, I repeated the experiments hundreds of times before I published them, just as I repeated examining both Scotts, and other, curves several times (and with several independant people) before presenting them. Any of you are welcome to ask Gene Mallove how long I waited before releasing some of this information to have the opportunity to double, and then triple, check the results. Second for the record, I have published several reports of negative results (including looking for metachronous emission, and deuterium production), and also corrected others results pointing out that they were dealing with amplification factors. Thus Bob Horst's innuendo is nothing short of capricious and egregious. Most importantly, of course, there is no evidence Mr. Horst did even examine what I suggested. The issues are sensitivity, actual vs. estimated noise level, precision, and accuracy. This case demonstrates once again why it is crucial to distinguish them, and to nail that noise measurement to a "t". Given the hope was to get more people to test the phenomena, and to increase the education generally about the field, then perhaps it is time to leave Vortex as Dieter and Russ and others have done, since all these efforts to have the group focus on science have been futile. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 00:49:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA22073; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:42:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:42:30 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <334F3C94.566D math.ucla.edu> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:41:08 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little's KS Curves References: <970412044010_72240.1256_EHB77-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CQClu1.0.nO5.bppJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > To: Vortex > > Barry Merriman writes: > > Nuclear energy scales are 1,000,000 fold greater than chemical > energy scales. Yet "successful" cold fusion experiments tend to > put out roughly as much energy as the chemical energy input. > > I cannot imagine where Barry got the idea that input balances output. > What does he think "300% excess" means? Let me clarify: I'm talking orders of magnitude here. When an effect could in principle yield a 10^6 fold gain, whether the observed gain is 30% or 300%, it is still an _excess_ of a size comparable with the input. Why doesn't the typical cold fusion experiment show a gain of 10^4, 10^5 or 10^6 over chemical energy input? This is of course a rhetorical question, so no one seems to knwo what is going on in a successful CF experiment. Still, it has to be seen as a bizarre coincidence, even if one believes in a nulear reaction underlying CF. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 01:08:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA24435; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:01:22 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Cavitator-Frank Z.-Horace Resent-Message-ID: <"zgoJ62.0.iz5.23qJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:50 PM 4/11/97, Francis J. Stenger wrote: [snip] >I am liking these words, Horace! I have been thinking about what >a good cavitator I could make using my Sears router. > > 1. The tool has a no-load speed of about 25,000 RPM and runs [snip] > >Remodeling way too long ------ Frank Stenger What an interesting and direct idea. As you say, there probably is some kind of off the shelf bit that would work well too. However this is not what I had in mind - it is the other kind of cavitation, caused by high velocity and surface vorticies. What I had in mind was designing a fluidic circuit. A fluidic amplifier, driven at two or three thousand PSI by a hydraulic pump, could be used to drive a resonant oscillation chamber. Some fluidic amplifiers are somewhat like a bistable flip-flop. The high pressure fluid flows through a Y fitting. The cavity at the Y intersection is designed to maintain most of the flow and pressure out either the right or left branch, but not both. The modulating signal is input purpendicular to the Y joint at S and T: FLUIDIC AMPLIFIER Left Right Outputs \ / \ / \ / S ---|--- T Signal to amplify | | Main Input A comparatively low pressure pulse between S and T can toggle the flow to the left or right, providing a large gain. The output of a small fluidic amplifier can be used to drive a larger amplifier by directing the right and left channels to the S and T inputs of the next stage and shunting the flow back to the pump through a sufficient resistance to apply pressure to the S and T inputs of the second stage. Also, S and T can be directly driven by various transducers, including large peizo crystals. The left and right outputs can be directed to opposite ends of a chamber to drive pressure waves in the chamber. Exits for fluid flow could be holes around the sides of the chamber exiting into a jacket: ------------------Pump------->Main Input | | ------ | | Resonating chamber -| |- | | || | ------| | | Left | | Right Outputs \ / \ / \ / S ---|--- T Signal to amplify | | Main Input The resonating chamber could also have diaphragms and fluidic lenses to focus the impulses into a central chamber which is not pumped and which contains the colloids which act as bubble formation and CF sites. The actual pumped fluid might be hydraulic fluid. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 01:13:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA24346; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:01:26 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: LiOD preparation Resent-Message-ID: <"HZrrm1.0.Gy5.22qJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:37 PM 4/11/97, John Alexander Lotoski wrote: >On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >> >> Ed, I let some pieces of Li metal float around in a beaker of acetone the >> >> other day for about 15 minutes and noticed a strange whitish growth >>forming >> >> on the Li pieces...big flaky crystals. Any ideas? > >> A likely possibility. The lithium is reacting with CO2 and water >> vapor from the air and forming lithium carbonate flakes. >> That is why lithium is used as a CO2 scrubber in the space program. > > Good point. Li2CO3 is a white powder. LiOH is also white. Hmm. >I wonder. Maybe there is a distribution of different products from all >these rx's. > >> FJS > > John Could also include Li2O, which is white. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 01:54:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA27189; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <334F5B68.790B rt66.com> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 02:52:40 -0700 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall rt66.com Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Nuclear/chemical amplification factor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mJ1pJ2.0.ge6.dqqJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 12, 1997 Vortex, I assume that if nuclear reactions are occuring in the various "Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" systems, then one immediate effect in any local reaction site would be immediate radical thermal expansion and disruption of that site, ending the reaction before much nuclear energy per overall sample volume could be released. Thus the overall excess energy would tend to be in the order of magnitude of chemical effects, namely the energy needed to break some chemical bonds. It is imaginable that the anomalous reactions might be on the sub-nuclear level of quark and gluon interations. Why not, since reactions on the nuclear level are so implausible, according to conventional theories? Is it possible that substantial amounts of energy are being whisked away via neutrino and other exotic neutral particle production, such as the putative WIMPs (Weakly Interacting Massive Particles), now being sought in dozens of experiments as a possible major part of the missing mass of the cosmos? I'm imagining that some of these reactions might occur in coherent processes, similar to laser amplification, expecially in spark and exploding wire experiments. A lot might occur in less than a nanosecond in a reaction site. Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 02:07:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA28852; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 02:04:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 02:04:50 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: fstenger interlaced.net From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Cavitator-Frank Z.-Horace Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 09:04:13 +0000 Message-ID: <19970412090410.AAA24094 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"fBUl1.0.k27.n0rJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:34 AM 4/12/97 +0000, Frank Stenger wrote: >Frederick J. Sparber wrote: (About non-standard rotors in routers) >> >(snip) > >> Yes, but you still have two hands and eleven fingers, tonight. :-) >> >GOOD POINT, FREDERICK!!! >Yes, never fool with such a high speed device without GREAT respect! >Routers require high-strength, precision rotor bits. The cantilever >shaft is VERY unstable to unbalance. Tests with such a machine should >be treated as an explosion ready to happen! Remote operation is a >MUST. Viewing could be done with a well thought out mirror setup or >electronically with a video camera. Shielding is a must! > >Glad you pointed out that such a rig is no joke, Frederick! > >Frank Stenger > > On a lighter side. It seems that a proper gentleman had one drink too many while waiting for a flight at the airport. While using the urinal he happened to look down, and gasped with amazement, "Well I'll be damned, I've got six fingers!" :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 06:29:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA11657; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 06:26:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 06:26:25 -0700 Date: 12 Apr 97 09:24:05 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Little's KS Curves Message-ID: <970412132405_72240.1256_EHB30-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"LcOIx3.0._r2.0suJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Barry Merriman writes: For the record: I agree with M.S. that at "low" flow rates, the buoyant vertical transport of hot fluid could lead to a large spurious heat transport in a vertically positioned flow calorimeter. For e.g., I would think Pattersons original work might suffer from this, since the flow rates were sub-ml/min. In Patterson's original work, all calorimetry was static. I have pointed this out many times. It is impossible to do flow calorimetry at a fraction of a ml per minute. Regarding his bizarre claim that "successful" cold fusion experiments tend to put out roughly as much energy as the chemical energy input, Barry adds: Let me clarify: I'm talking orders of magnitude here. When an effect could in principle yield a 10^6 fold gain, whether the observed gain is 30% or 300%, it is still an _excess_ of a size comparable with the input. Why doesn't the typical cold fusion experiment show a gain of 10^4, 10^5 or 10^6 over chemical energy input? This is a known limitation of the technology. It is like asking why hot fusion reactors only produce 30% excess. In heat after death, the gain is infinite. No chemical energy is input yet the cell generates heat beyond the limits of chemistry. In Ni cells undergoing electrolysis the gain is often 10^3, and sometimes 10^4. It is not higher because in the crude cells we have today, only a tiny fraction of the metal loads and reacts. This can be seen afterward in autoradiographs and by looking for transmutations and damage in the host metal. If we learn to load, say, 3%, the gain will be much higher. This is of course a rhetorical question, so no one seems to know what is going on in a successful CF experiment. It is a strange rhetorical question, Barry. I cannot understand why you repeat it, since you know as well as I do that heat after death proves it is nonsense. Lots of people know what is going on in a successful CF experiment. They may not know at the deepest level of physics, but the reasons why cells require so much input to sustain a reaction are understood. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 07:20:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA12466; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 07:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 07:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 09:09:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704121409.JAA10024 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Cavitator-Frank Z.-Horace Resent-Message-ID: <"53dO51.0.i23.VUvJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:05 AM 4/12/97 +0000, Fred S wrote: >Be Careful Frank. I made the mistake of putting a 1/4 inch x 3 inch >lag bolt in a router chuck once. It whipped it sideways to a 90 degree >angle and almost cost me a hand (in about two seconds). Wow, Fred, parallel lives we lead. I did it with an 8" long 1/4" dia SS shaft with nothing on the end. Chucked it up, spun the router up to max and WHAM, the rod bent 90 degrees near the chuck and turned into a death whip. Fortunately I had a strong hold on the router and none of my body parts were in the way. We went on to mount an accurately machined disc with slots cut in its periphery on the end of a new rod and spun it very fast submerged in water after dark-adapting our eyes in a dark room. We were hoping to see some light from the cavitation which seemed quite intense. All we got was wet...:-) Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 07:28:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA16456; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 07:16:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 07:16:23 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970412071611.00b0ac20 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 07:16:12 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: Thought Experiment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"DirI73.0.214.savJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, it is thought provoking, especially the part where the wires are made 1 light-hour long. I also noticed that you have gotten no replies to this post. Could it be too sophisticated for the vortexians ? What is your analysis of this circuit (especially the long one ?) At 09:11 AM 4/11/97 -0600, you wrote: >ANALYSIS OF THOUGHT EXPERIMENT CONCERNING BEHAVIOR OF POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE >CHARGES IN A SUPER CONDUCTING DIRECT CURRENT CIRCUIT AND THE ASSOCIATED >BEHAVIOR OF THE MAGNETIC FIELD THAT SURROUNDS THE SOLID CONDUCTOR OF THE >CIRCUIT DURING THE INITIAL ELECTRICAL IMPULSE THROUGH THE CIRCUIT > >AUTHOR: >HAROLD W. LA FONTE Copyright 3-26-96 > First posting: 4-11-97 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 08:18:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA17885; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 08:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 08:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <334FA57F.4036 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:08:47 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cavitator-Frank Z.-Horace References: <970412072135_100060.173_JHB62-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"drmY1.0.NN4.lLwJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Norman Horwood wrote: > > My wife has something just like this - its called a food processor. Just think > of all the CF ou being generated in all the kitchens of the developed world by > the cavitation induced by the whipping of eggs and cream etc. > OK, OK, Norman - there you go, funning my brilliant idea! Actually, I considered my wife's blender too. Problems: 1. It has only a rotor - no stator. It uses fluid friction against the container wall to "turbulate" the eggs, not a close-running stator as in the old mechanical air sirens (you know - those naked ladies floating around in the clouds). 2. When I set the blender on the range to outgas the liquid, it melted - cheap plastic! Now, quit making fun of me when I am trying to be scientific and come up with a thread that fits this list as well as how many CF angels fit on the head of a Pd pin. With HURT feelings, Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 08:41:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA24354; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 08:38:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 08:38:34 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Cavitator-Frank Z.-Horace Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 15:37:56 +0000 Message-ID: <19970412153754.AAA24789 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"tvcAy2.0.Ry5.unwJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:09 PM 4/12/97 +0000, Scott wrote: >At 12:05 AM 4/12/97 +0000, Fred S wrote: > >>Be Careful Frank. I made the mistake of putting a 1/4 inch x 3 inch >>lag bolt in a router chuck once. It whipped it sideways to a 90 degree >>angle and almost cost me a hand (in about two seconds). > >Wow, Fred, parallel lives we lead. I did it with an 8" long 1/4" dia SS >shaft with nothing on the end. Chucked it up, spun the router up to max and >WHAM, the rod bent 90 degrees near the chuck and turned into a death whip. >Fortunately I had a strong hold on the router and none of my body parts were >in the way. Have you checked to make sure you have ALL of your digits, lately? :-) > >We went on to mount an accurately machined disc with slots cut in its >periphery on the end of a new rod and spun it very fast submerged in water >after dark-adapting our eyes in a dark room. We were hoping to see some >light from the cavitation which seemed quite intense. All we got was wet...:-) > >Scott > > Those milk-shake machines with the little "wavy-disks" at the end of shaft must turn at around 12,000 rpm or so, don't they? As Norman Horwood says the kitchen food processors probably get up close to that also. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 08:43:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA20435; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 08:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 08:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970412083415.006d04d0 netzone.com> X-Sender: discpub netzone.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 08:34:15 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Joe Champion Subject: Just a note....... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"lEAb51.0.9_4.8mwJp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For those who have any interest in the information located at: http://www.transmutation.com or, it's mirrored site: http://www.lyghtforce.com/JChampion please download the data within the next six days. The sites will remain, but for an undefined period of time, they will be void of information. While others are debating on the philsophy behind the science, Dan York and I took another approach, we developed production facilities. It has been a hard struggle to this point and we will probably hit a few more pot holes before we reach the finish line. Producing transmutation in a test tube is fun and realitively easy, but the ultimate test for these observed phenomenas is replication on commercial scales. The problem with this science is there are many undefined laws which will take science years to accept. Under no conditions am I trying to state that I or any of my associates understand the mechanics in total of the nuclear events, but we have learned how to manipulate conditions for a positive end result. As time marches forward, I would like to have Scott, Barry, Mark and others of this group observe our work. Although, for now we will remained focused on repeatablility of the reactions which are producing 3x10^23 atoms of new elements during a 180 minute period. As far as Jed's remarks placing me in the arena with Newman, allow me to remind you it was I who brought the first large scale transmutation experiment to Bockris in 1992. Since that time, I am cognizant of at least four members (other than Dan York)of this group who have observed such. Of course they are Russ George, Barry Merriman, Michael Mandeville and William Stehl. With total respect to these observers, one of them (Barry) has had various problems in the replication of the event outside of our facilities. There may be others but I am not looking for, nor wanting support from outsiders at this time. I am not leaving the Vortex arena, and if I can be of any assistance to anyone in the group, please feel free to contact me. Respectfully, From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 09:38:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA32169; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 09:24:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 09:24:22 -0700 Message-ID: <334FB74A.BF2 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:24:42 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cavitator-Frank Z.-Horace References: <199704121409.JAA10024 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7GNVK1.0.Ts7.oSxJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > We were hoping to see some > light from the cavitation which seemed quite intense. All we got was wet...:-) > Gee, Scott, you and Frederick have already done all the fun stuff! I think that's (about getting wet) all Frank Z. got from the Yusmar too, right? I think water purity control is as important for SL as for CF! (more even!). Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 09:42:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA28034; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 09:07:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 09:07:43 -0700 Message-ID: <334FB372.BEE interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:08:18 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cavitator-Frank Z.-Horace References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pslQ72.0.tr6.EDxJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > However this is not what I had in mind - it is the other kind of > cavitation, caused by high velocity and surface vorticies. What I had in > mind was designing a fluidic circuit. I'm with you on that, Horace. But remember, cavatation is a major design problem for high speed, high shear boat props. I've seen photos of cavitated boat props that look way more cratered than a CF electrode. I think cavitation is cavitation - if it's strong and in the right fluid. > > A fluidic amplifier, driven at two or three thousand PSI by a hydraulic > pump, could be used to drive a resonant oscillation chamber. Yes, an off-the-shelf pressure washer ( 500 bucks, and you could use it chase brown bears away from your garbage cans too!) can deliver such pressures. The problem I see with such complex fluid loops - the same goes for Frank Z's Yusmar - is that of controlling the water purity. I think a major problem is STARTING with a pristine sample and THEN being able to add SMALL amounts of facilitator substances. I think you mentioned solid-state electronic ultrasonic transducers (as have been used) and this would seem to lend itself to clean, sealed sample containers also. OK, keep your fluidic oscillator but drive it with a "batch" high pressure water source that could be outgassed at ambient pressure (or using vacuum as in Bill B's clink tubes). You could boil the reservoir and pass the hot steam thru the system to outgas the flow lines. Then you could cool down, pressurize the reservoir (maybe with a teflon bladder to separate the outgassed water from the pressurizing fluid) amd blast the charge thru the fluid oscillator. The big problem with my router rig is the need for a rotating seal for the shaft - maybe solid nickel (!!!!) magnetostrictive transducers would be the way to go! Hey, how does that sound?: 1. Hermetically sealed (after outgas) pyrex glass test container. 2. Two metal-to-glass seals for the two driver coil leads. 3. Nickel wire driver coil around a tuned nickel slug armature - teflon slug suspension at the sonic node of the slug (maybe a 1/2 wave slug with center node). 4. Driver oscillator/amplifier - a few hundred watts at ultrasonic frequency. (I have ~ 400 watt, 75 kHz osc.!) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 10:10:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA08627; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 10:00:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 10:00:59 -0700 Date: 12 Apr 97 11:13:19 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Little's KS Curves - Vertical Calorimetr Message-ID: <970412151319_72240.1256_EHB116-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"01E_b3.0.-52.4_xJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Mitchell Swartz writes: You claim the heats are enough to almost bring the solution to "a boil" (see below) . . . No, I never claimed that! The temperature only goes up 17 deg C. That's nowhere near boiling. Contrary to Jed's claim, calibrations do show an error. Nope. Never happens. If Mitch believes this is possible, he should set up an experiment and demonstrate it. Show us this kilowatt error with a liter per minute flow rate. Heck, show us a 200 watt error. Gene or someone else in the Boston area will come around and have a look. Barry Merriman also corrected for that error. No, he said right here he does not. The only buoyancy problem he observed was for the air surrounding the cell. No problem. Just boil the water with kilowatt power in a static experiment. Just make it work in a static experiment. Do you have the data? No of course not! That would wreck the cell. I wrote: "The flow rate in the kilowatt cells is 1000 to 1200 ml/minute. That is not low, it is very much higher than any other flow calorimeter I know of. It has to be high, or the water in the cell will come to a boil and the beads will overheat and self-destruct. Mitch writes: Jed, if it will come to "a boil" dont you think that there MIGHT BE some convection at those temperatures in water? Of course there would be convection problems if it boiled, but it does not boil because the flow rate is so high. The temperature inside the cell never gets about ~45 C. If it boiled, calorimetry would be the least of their problems! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 10:10:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA10341; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 10:03:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 10:03:43 -0700 Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:30:41 -0500 (GMT) From: Carlos Henry Castano Reply-To: Carlos Henry Castano To: grupo de discusion Cc: "Frederick J. Sparber" , Carlos Ignacio Sanchez Saenz Subject: Hi, i have a question..... In-Reply-To: <19970301221211.AAA2356 LOCALNAME> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Za-ES.0.RX2.j1yJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 1 Mar 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > > If you look at the Volts and Amperes going into a cell to get Hydrogen and > Oxygen off, then calculate the heat of the potassium atoms recombining at > the cathode and giving off hydrogen after the ions have picked up > their electrons; 2 K + 2 H2O = 2 KOH + H2. > > Then two hydroxyls (OH) recombining at the anode: 2 OH = H2O + 1/2 O2, and > plug in the recombining energy of the H2 + 1/2 O2 gasses you should come out > with a thermodynamic "squeaker" that is just short of 3 times the energy put > into the electrical energy at the power plant. Or if you use a battery or > hand cranked generator, the same thing. > > No free energy, just a little leeway in thermodynamics. A great "heat pump" > as Larry Wharton and Robin van Spaandonk said. > > Regards, Frederick >> Hmmmm, i have any troubles to see you idea... you say 2 K + 2 H2O = 2 KOH + H2. but how you obtain the atoms of K , is very diferent the atoms at the ions of K+, if you have K+ you would waste many energy changing this at K (neutral atom), and you can't see excess energy if you put the energy of this change in the cell and later obtain this again (the K atom in H2O is inestable and you reaction is right) Can you understand me?, or i have a mistake... what do you think? Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo Ingeniero Quimico Laboratorio de Electroquimica Universidad Nacional de Colombia, Sede Medellin. p.d. thank at the profesor Sanchez for your help. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 10:56:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA23137; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 10:52:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 10:52:18 -0700 Message-ID: <334FC0AA.4F6C pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 10:04:42 -0700 From: Hank Scudder Organization: Stochastic Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-PBXE (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challen References: <970412044024_72240.1256_EHB77-2 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"69Uum2.0.ye5.ClyJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jed Please send. Hank Scudder > between Morrison and Fleischmann. (I would be happy to e-mail a copy to those > who have not read it.) To summarize: Morrison makes absurd mistakes, a > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 11:11:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA24854; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 10:58:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 10:58:24 -0700 Message-ID: <334FC243.337C pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 10:11:31 -0700 From: Hank Scudder Organization: Stochastic Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-PBXE (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cavitator-Frank Z.-Horace References: <970412072135_100060.173_JHB62-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"V3VrD1.0.346.wqyJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Norman Horwood wrote: > > Frank, > > >> I see a small bench-top rig with a view angle from the side into the > water container - use multiple layers of acrylic window glass or > lexan (if your rich!) for a safety shield against a failing rotor. << > > My wife has something just like this - its called a food processor. Just think > of all the CF ou being generated in all the kitchens of the developed world by > the cavitation induced by the whipping of eggs and cream etc. > > NormanIs that why whipped cream is so fattening? Hank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 11:34:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA31417; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:27:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:27:57 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:30:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: A walk in the park.... Resent-Message-ID: <"_MXXC2.0.pg7.iGzJp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5910 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: HLafonte aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:55:20 -0400 (EDT) To: josephnewman earthlink.net Subject: A walk in the park Re: Thought Experiment Evan, When I think of what Joe Newman has been through, a negative reply from time to time will be a walk in the park for me. Most of the response has been positive to this point and I would be very suprised if they were all positive! I am looking forward to reading the text book that has this type circuit explained! Why hasn't anyone replied to the wave (pumping) action? Will the two wires repell? If so, how can that work be accounted for? Does this explain Joe Newman's theory of the magnetic field coming from the mass of the wire, not the current? Is the electrical impulse just a catalyst that brings about the magnetic field? I find it hard to believe that any college text book addresses this type circuit. The questions it poses are just not mainstream thinking. A text book dealing with a superconducting dc circuit one light hour long and teaches the existance or absence of the wave (pumping) action I mention? No college would let it near the campus! And by the way, would someone mind giving me the inductive time constant for this circuit? If they have any trouble, just borrow the local super-computer for a day or so! If the wave aspect (pumping) does exist, they might want to borrow it for a couple of weeks. They have my e-mail address, and a graph would be nice also. Evan, I believe this circuit is so complex that some may write it off rather than try to figure out it's true nature! Post this where you wish. If you have time I could use a list of locations where my article is. Thanks for the exposure. I think we are going to find something here. Butch LaFonte H. W. (BUTCH) LA FONTE 119 ROBERT E. LEE AVE. LEEDS, ALABAMA 35094 PHONE-1-205-699-5364 FAX- 1-205-699-5141 E-MAIL hlafonte aol.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 12:48:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA21805; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970412192156.0075213c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 15:21:56 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Little's KS Curves - Vertical Calorimetry is Sensitive to Bernard Instability Resent-Message-ID: <"Jy2nl3.0.dK5.15-Jp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5911 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:13 AM 4/12/97 EDT, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >Mitchell Swartz writes: > You claim the heats are enough to almost bring the solution to "a boil" > (see below) . . . > >No, I never claimed that! The temperature only goes up 17 deg C. That's >nowhere near boiling. Jed, you are getting to reliably inaccurate, albeit with an irregularly irregular frequency. Here is the proof of the inaccuracy part. I did NOT say it boiled. I said, " You claim the heats are enough to almost bring the solution to "a boil"". And you did. Here is the exact quote, Mr. Rothwell. jed= The flow rate in the kilowatt cells is 1000 to 1200 ml/minute. That is not jed= low, it is very much higher than any other flow calorimeter I know of. It has jed= to be high, or the water in the cell will come to a boil and the beads will jed= overheat and self-destruct. jed= - Jed [Date: 11 Apr 97 17:43:39 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Little's KS Curves Message-Id: <970411214339_72240.1256_EHB74-1 CompuServe.COM>] Hope that helps. ============================================================== > Jed, if it will come to "a boil" dont you think that there MIGHT BE some > convection at those temperatures in water? > >Of course there would be convection problems if it boiled, but it does not >boil because the flow rate is so high. The temperature inside the cell never >gets about ~45 C. If it boiled, calorimetry would be the least of their >problems! >- Jed Jed claims there are no thermal buoyancy effects with a 17 degree temperature gradient in a vertical system, with a peak temperature of 45 C. Are those temperatures right, Jed? The diameter is ~2.5 cm and 10 cm long, so there is more than ample distance for a Rayleigh-Taylor wavelength I believe. Are those dimensions correct, Jed? Since such effect is well known (Bernard instability), and since several people do attempt to correct for it to some degree (cited some cases previously), trust there will be serious scientists who will explore, and correct for, this interesting, correctable effect, anyway. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 12:56:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA24757; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:51:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Carlos Henry Castano From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Hi, i have a question..... Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 19:50:05 +0000 Message-ID: <19970412195002.AAA26728 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"85YwV3.0.g26.sU-Jp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:30 PM 4/12/97 +0000, Carlos wrote: >On Sat, 1 Mar 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >> > >> If you look at the Volts and Amperes going into a cell to get Hydrogen and >> Oxygen off, then calculate the heat of the potassium atoms recombining at >> the cathode and giving off hydrogen after the ions have picked up >> their electrons; 2 K + 2 H2O = 2 KOH + H2. >> >> Then two hydroxyls (OH) recombining at the anode: 2 OH = H2O + 1/2 O2, and >> plug in the recombining energy of the H2 + 1/2 O2 gasses you should come out >> with a thermodynamic "squeaker" that is just short of 3 times the energy put >> into the electrical energy at the power plant. Or if you use a battery or >> hand cranked generator, the same thing. >> >> No free energy, just a little leeway in thermodynamics. A great "heat pump" >> as Larry Wharton and Robin van Spaandonk said. >> >> Regards, Frederick >>> > >Hmmmm, i have any troubles to see you idea... you say > > 2 K + 2 H2O = 2 KOH + H2. > >but how you obtain the atoms of K , is very diferent the atoms at the ions >of K+, if you have K+ you would waste many energy changing this at K >(neutral atom), and you can't see excess energy if you put the energy of >this change in the cell and later obtain this again (the K atom in H2O is >inestable and you reaction is right) > >Can you understand me?, or i have a mistake... what do you think? I think the mistake was mine. The Gibbs free energy values for the ions and neutral atoms or molecules are as follows in joules/mole: K+ -284,716 K 0.0 Li+ -293,010 Li 0.0 OH- -159,106 OH (gas) +33.5 KOH or LiOH -439,635 (aqueous) H2O -238,659 (liquid) At the cathode: 2 K+ plus 2e = 2K plus 5.69E5 joules (input) 2 K + 2 H2O = 2KOH + H2 minus 4.02E5 joules (exotherm) At the Anode: 2 OH- minus 2e = 2 OH plus 3.85E5 joules (input) 2 OH = H2O + O minus 1.72E5 joules (exotherm) Recombining the H2 and O: H2 + O = H2O (liquid) minus 2.386E5 joules (exotherm) Exotherm = 8.13E5 joules Input = 9.54E5 joules Net = 9.45E5 - 8.13E5 = 1.141E5 joules needed from the battery to run the electrolysis in the cell to generate a mole of H2O. this would mean that 1.2E24 electrons have to flow for a given period of time. Assuming 3 amperes, (1.875E19 electrons/second) at 2.5 volts (7.5 watts) for 1.2E24/1.875E19 = 6.4E4 seconds = 17.77 hours. So you are putting in 7.5 joule/second for 6.4E4 seconds = 4.8E5 joules where you only need 1.141E5. So do you get an O.U. indication of 4.8E5/1.141E5 or about 3.4 or so, depending on the type of electrodes and electrolyte, and possibly contact potential enhancement from the materials used? > >Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo >Ingeniero Quimico >Laboratorio de Electroquimica >Universidad Nacional de Colombia, Sede Medellin. > > >p.d. thank at the profesor Sanchez for your help. > > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 14:18:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA00990; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <334FF8EC.5E28 gorge.net> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 14:04:44 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permanent Magnets & Electric Magnets References: <199704070618.XAA25184 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IPa031.0.NF.PU_Jp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I found the following comment on the magnetization of lodestone on the net: >Jane Hammarstrom U.S. Geological Survey 954 National Center Reston, VA 20192 "The reason that magnetite is magnetic is that it is one of a very few "ferromagnetic" minerals, i.e., minerals that when placed in an applied magnetic field (earth's magnetic field), develop magnetic fields that may exceed by a billionfold the magnetic fields that develop in "paramagnetic" minerals placed in the same field. The applied field brings the dipole moments of neighboring atoms into mutual parallel arrangements (called exchange coupling) in "ferromagnetic" minerals, and this effect is locked in so that these minerals become permanent magnets." < More to the point is a return to Greg's original question, (paraphrased): "Does 'using' a permanent magnet to do work have any effect on that magnet, or the environment?" As a way of finding out, anyone who knows of studies done on the magnets used in "permanent magnet" motors, specifically, on any changes (chemical, crystal structure, etc.) found, after years of use in such motors, could let everybody else know how to find them. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 15:20:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA09142; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 15:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 15:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: 12 Apr 97 18:15:19 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Sufficient to boil Message-ID: <970412221518_72240.1256_EHB96-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"O7o2A.0.hE2.fd0Kp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Mitch writes: Jed, you are getting to reliably inaccurate, albeit with an irregularly irregular frequency. Here is the proof of the inaccuracy part. I did NOT say it boiled. I said, "You claim the heats are enough to almost bring the solution to "a boil"". And you did . . . This is damn nonsense. ANY heat is sufficient to make ANY quantity of water boil, if the vessel is sufficiently insulated and the flow rate is low enough. And if the flow is large enough (say, Niagara Falls), you can always prevent boiling. I asserted that IF the flow had been much lower than 1 liter per minute THEN there would be boiling. How can Mitch claim this is the same as saying: "the heats are enough to almost bring the solution to a boil"!!!! The two statements are utterly dissimilar. The "heats" (as you call them/it) in smaller CETI cells have brought them to boil and have even cracked the vessel. The excess heat in Ragland's cell has also brought it boil occasionally. No doubt boiling and near boiling temperatures play hob with flow calorimetry, but a 17 deg C Delta T does not bring a cell near boiling, unless you are at the top of Mt. Everest I suppose. Regarding the large cell I never said the "heats are enough to almost boil," and any fool can see that is not the case, 45 being much smaller than 100. A 45 deg C cell temperature does not produce any significant distortions or errors from Bernard Instability or any other cause. This is proved by calibrating with a joule heater. Input balances output closely; there is no significant error. And if Mitch honestly disagrees he should shut up and calibrate his own flow calorimeter at 1000 watts and 1000 ml/m. Show us! Prove it! Cravens did a proper experiment that proved Mitch is wrong. First Mitch accuses me of stealing my own articles from his magazine. Now he claims I think water boils at 45 deg C. What next? This is disruptive lunacy. This is more obnoxious and disruptive than any discussion of politics I have ever carried out here, even though it is ostensibly a technical discussion. I will not respond to this garbage again. It is quite enough to bring ME to boil. The people who would censor out political discussion from this forum should think carefully about the motivation of scientists who use technical discussions for such irrational, political ends. Those of you who refuse to look at human nature in this odious guise will fall into the same trap. Deny politics, and it rules your every thought, just as sex ruled the thoughts of the Victorians. I assert, furthermore, that all the "skeptical" argument against cold fusion, including every single one ever posted by Morrison on one extreme, and Merriman or Britz at the other, are based on irrationality, politics, jealousy and emotion, without a shred of scientific logic. Britz is more diplomatic in his choice of words than Morrison, but there is no real scientific basis for his doubts, and he can only maintain them by jumping through hoops to avoid reading Claytor's paper on Internet. Merriman professes an interest in cold fusion. He has performed experiments and attending conferences. Yet he has somehow managed to avoid reading McKubre and Miles. And what's more, for some incredible reason he wants to see someone else's arguments against their papers! Let *him* critique the work himself! He knows far more about calorimetry than Morrison ever will! What on God's Green earth has science come to, when scientists think it best rely on the opinions of other people instead of judging papers themselves? What has it come to when Swartz makes these absurd assertions about nonexistent errors in flow calorimetry, and Merriman asks him to "run the numbers" instead of running an experiment to prove his point? Is physics based on the opinions of other people and "running numbers"? Or is it based on reading original sources and performing experiments?!? The suggestion that we hold yet another tit-for-tat "debate" instead of doing our homework and carefully reading of the original papers is APPALLING. It is DISGRACEFUL. I tell you -- in all seriousness -- something is dreadfully wrong with the attitudes of you modern academic scientists. You have lost sight of what constitutes truth and how we go about discovering it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 16:05:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA06242; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:03:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:03:37 -0700 Date: 12 Apr 97 19:01:54 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Subject: Re: Cavitator-Frank Z.-Horace Message-ID: <970412230154_100060.173_JHB59-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"QL_gr2.0.RX1.8J1Kp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> NormanIs that why whipped cream is so fattening? Hank << Dunno - but its probably why you get so much wind from home-made vegetable soup - the cavitation fails to collapse and you swallow the entrained gas. Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 16:26:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA07673; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:24:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:24:03 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970412232211.007016ec world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 19:22:11 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BlackLight balloons, pot calling kettle Resent-Message-ID: <"uaKby.0.pt1.Ic1Kp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:15 AM 3/27/97 EST, Jed wrote: >In my opinion, the researchers in this field are causing more trouble, more >delays, and more harm to the field than all members of the opposition >combined. Jed, This is false. The obstruction to funding, publication, and interference with r&d, in the US is causing the trouble. show the evidence that researchers are the cause > If it was not for the petty jealousy, grandiose business schemes, >and the rampant self-destructive stupidity of the CF scientists themselves, we >would have had cold fusion powered automobiles years ago. Are you projecting? Where do you get this stuff? Survey? Hunch? Having worked continuously in this field, IMHO it is incredible you blame the cf researchers again. >I think I have made >the case for this point of view in my postings here and in my history articles >in I.E. about Harrison and the Wrights. I do not see any reason to alter my >views. You view is different from your continued public putting down of people in the field. Also this is not 1900 but a century later, and flying is easy compared to cf. >As long as the researchers in this field continue these >self-destructive practices I shall continue to criticize them in the >strongest terms. I will never mollycoddle people just because they call >themselves cold fusion researchers. That is all the more reason to hold them >to high standards, and to expect professional, constructive, good science. >Otherwise they give the field a bad name. Your actions are giving the field a bad name. There is no urine o/u device, and frankly some of the other stuff you present in IE does more to hurt the real field here, than any mistake done by any cf researcher. > > > It is hard enough actually doing theoretical or experimental research in > a field that has the respect of Rodney Dangerfield (unjustly), without > getting incorrect, and repeated, barbs from you, too. > >My barbs have nothing to do with the scientific content of the research. At least we agree with that. But that is what your comments should be focused on. that is when you do your best, IMHO. Mitchell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 16:29:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA14714; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970412232207.006d1df8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 19:22:07 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Diffusion Barrier / More about beads Resent-Message-ID: <"zr8bv3.0.qb3.Vc1Kp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:35 PM 2/24/97 EST, Jed wrote: >To: Vortex > > I did a quick look through some literature about 3 years ago, after > learning about Patterson's results, and what little I found seems to > suggest that Ni is very hard to load with hydrogen. > >That's what people say. (A helpful comment!) > > Rumors again may not be helpful. Nickel loads, but it has a significant slower internal diffusion rate. Readers actually interested might the check the copious metallurgical corrosion literature or other material science references in "Hydrogen Redistribution by Catastrophic Desoption in Select Transition Metals", J. New Energy, 1, 4, 26-33 (1997). or "Catastrophic Active Medium Hypothesis of Cold Fusion", Vol. 4, Proceedings: "Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion", sponsored by EPRI and the Office of Naval Research, December (1994). Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 16:34:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA15103; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970412232327.006cd86c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 19:23:27 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Sufficient to boil Cc: "Eugene F. Mallove" <76570.2270 compuserve.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"02eYq.0.jh3.ud1Kp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:15 PM 4/12/97 EDT, Jed continues his inaccuracies, with at least three (3) false statements, as fully documented below: Mr. JED ROTHWELL's FIRST FALSE STATEMENT: >Mitch writes: > Jed, you are getting to reliably inaccurate, albeit > with an irregularly irregular frequency. > Here is the proof of the inaccuracy part. > > I did NOT say it boiled. > I said, "You claim the heats are enough to almost > bring the solution to "a boil"". > > And you did . . . > >This is damn nonsense. ANY heat is sufficient to make >ANY quantity of water >boil, if the vessel is sufficiently insulated and the flow > rate is low enough. >And if the flow is large enough (say, Niagara Falls), >you can always prevent >boiling. I asserted that IF the flow had been much lower > than 1 liter per >minute THEN there would be boiling. How can Mitch claim this is the same as >saying: "the heats are enough to almost bring the solution to a boil"!!!! The >two statements are utterly dissimilar. This is a false statement by Jed. Anyone following this is totally aware, except for Jed, that we were speaking about the SAME set up. Here is the quote whitch Mr. Rothwell conveniently just removed and replaced with a "..." jed= The flow rate in the kilowatt cells is jed= 1000 to 1200 ml/minute. That is not jed= low, it is very much higher than any jed= other flow calorimeter I know of. It has jed= to be high, or the water in the cell will jed= come to a boil and the beads will jed= overheat and self-destruct. jed= - Jed [Date: 11 Apr 97 17:43:39 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Little's KS Curves Message-Id: <970411214339_72240.1256_EHB74-1 CompuServe.COM>] Thus it was not ANY quantity of water. It was the very water volume about which Jed spoke only 24 hours before. Sounds like retrograde amnesia perhaps. Kluver-Bucy. I dont know. BTW Jed clearly asserted "that IF the flow had been much lower than liter per minute THEN there would be boiling." Thus, this level of heat is much more than that required for purporting that if there was no flow there would be enough to ALMOST bring the solution to a boil. It obviously takes more heat to boil a volume than ALMOST boil a volume. QED ================================================= JEDs UNSUPPORTED COMMENT =jed "Cravens did a proper experiment that proved =jed Mitch is wrong." What experiment was that Mr. Rothwell? When was the experiment? And what was the hypothesis that you confuse with me? Please be specific so Dennis and I can clear it up with a single call. ============================================= JEDS SECOND FALSE STATEMENT: =jed "First Mitch accuses me of stealing my own =jed articles from his magazine." More inaccuracy, Mr. Rothwell. That began with Jed attacking Russ George and others, and him being VERY irritated that I posted in support of them. Here is his attack on Russ George, a very serious cold fusion investigator. At 12:12 PM 3/24/97 EST, Jed wrote: >To: Vortex >The thing is, Russ often demands recognition as a CF scientist and as an >expert in subjects like spectral analysis. He gets upset when people do not >take his results seriously. Yet he refuses to publish! How can anyone expect >to be accepted if he is unwilling to publish? I do not understand this. When >people question my credibility (such as it is), I can, at least, point to >articles I have written and papers I have translated. You can read them and >judge for yourself whether I know what I am talking about. Say what you like >about Mills, it is abundantly clear that he knows how to do a good experiment >and how to write it up in proper form. There is not enough meat in Russ's home >page for people to judge his level of expertise. > >- Jed to which I responded, thereby apparently creating one very irate, about to be boiling, Jed. =ms "Jed, you are wrong. Russ published in =ms the Cold Fusion Times (ISSN#1072-2874) =ms issue volume 4, number 4. =ms You may be jealous it was not IE, but =ms he did, and you should quit saying this. So in response, unhinged, at 01:58 PM 3/31/97 EST, Jed flipped out and wrote: > "Mitch keeps publishing this >stuff without asking me, in some cases in violation of copyright. That's >annoying and impolite." This was the very first comment about any copyright issue whatsoever. Jed knew that his was a false and untruthful statement. When I responded to his attack, which was made only because I cited the Russ George article, I wrote: =ms "3) Kettle, stove, problem: Attention is directed =ms to the fact that both =ms Infinite Energy and "COLD FUSION" the glossy magazine =ms have violated =ms US copyright law by copying without attribution =ms the COLD FUSION TIMES' =ms previously published material which was copyright protected. =ms Until you brought this up, Jed, it was decided to =ms let this lie in the spirit =ms of education, and goodwill which this field desperately needs. =ms Education hopefully will lead to wisdom to =ms separate the silly o/u devices from the =ms real ones, Jed. And goodwill is what you should =ms better develop toward researchers in the =ms field. Notice, three things. I did not cite a single article written by egomaniac Jed. Second, this followed as Jed's attack on the COLD FUSION TIMES which he views as a competition, in his anger for discussing Russ George's work in a positive tone which really irritates Jed for some reason. Third, Jed SHOULD develop better feelings toward researchers in the field. IN SUMMARY: Jed is wrong about who began this. Jed is wrong about what it was about. This issue did not exist until Jed invented it, Never did any of this have ANYTHING to do with what Jed had written himself. Get some help, Jed. ================================================= JED's THIRD FALSE STATEMENT jed > "Now he claims I think water boils at 45 deg C." THere you go again, Jed. I did not say that. I could prove it by reprinting the entire file, but as a courtesy to all in vortex, will keept the S/N way down, and will leave it to Jed to find. Mr. Rothwell. I have shown you two cases here where you are wrong. Explicitly wrong. Please point out where I said what you claim in your quote. This seems to just herald more paroxysmal sheer idiocy on your part. ============================================ > You have lost sight of what >constitutes truth and how we go about discovering it. >- Jed Oh yes, Jed. Do lecture endlessly on truth. The three cases above (I am exhausted to do more) where you are wrong -- decisively proven by YOUR own posts -- saliently show that it is YOU who have lost sight of the truth. Given the respect we have for you, suggest you take a well deserved vacation. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 16:56:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA18264; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970412235212.00728214 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 19:52:12 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Sufficient to boil - in support of skeptics Resent-Message-ID: <"ivsOE1.0.IT4.Z22Kp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:15 PM 4/12/97 EDT, Jed continues: =JED I assert, furthermore, that all the "skeptical" argument =JED against cold fusion, including every single =JED one ever posted by Morrison on =JED one extreme, and Merriman or Britz at the =JED other, are based on irrationality, =JED politics, jealousy and emotion, without a shred of scientific logic. First, wrong. Many of their comments are reasonable, and indicate factors that must be accounted for. The final derived estimates of the power gain factors (if any) are more reliable if ALL their scientific arguments are considered. Second, given that I recommend calibrations for thermal buoyancy (and other terms) in the calorimetry experiments, and for deposition (and contamination) in the purported transmutation experiments, dont forget to include me too, Jed. BTW, the latter two scientists which Jed cites have considerable scientific logic in their posts. Oooops. Better get the flame-resistant software out. ;-)X Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 18:06:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA23823; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: 12 Apr 97 18:54:49 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Subject: Re: Cavitator-Frank Z.-Horace Message-ID: <970412225449_100060.173_JHB44-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"iac2I2.0.8q5.Y23Kp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sorry Frank! >> Now, quit making fun of me when I am trying to be scientific << Would I do a thing like that to you - or Jed - or Chris T - would I? :) However, to be serious folks - surely a scaled down Griggs rotor with re-tuned peripheral holes should create enough cavitation to test a few theories in a modified food processor with speed control. Another thing, on another thread, talking about the resonating cavity, driven by a hydraulic switch (Horace's fluidic amplifier) - I have patents covering a similar set-up where jets of water down to 0.3mm dia are oscillated angularly by a very low amplitude knife-edge at 90deg to the axis of the jet at frequencies from zero to 20kHz. I have the Tungsten Carbide nozzles from 0.3mm dia circular up to 1.8 mm dia equivalent elliptical X-section. They are somewhere in storage, but if anyone thinks they might be of scientific use then I will dig around and let them have a few. The oscillating drivers are not included, but the Carbide knife-edges are available. The USA patent is #4607794 filed March 2 1984, issued Aug 26 1986, and is listed on the IBM web site http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4607794 if anyone is interested. This patent is a follow-up of a series of GB patents and refers mainly to a fixed jet-shaping system, but you get the drift - I hope. Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 20:02:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA28455; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 20:00:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 20:00:00 -0700 Message-ID: <33504C09.771D worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:59:23 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device. References: <970403111625_1021128340 emout15.mail.aol.com> <3344803F.7F6F@microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DPMUc.0.Xy6.lm4Kp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg - What's the latest? You were about to "close the loop" if I recall, and then it got rather quiet all of a sudden. Did I miss some messages? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 22:02:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA08758; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 22:01:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 22:01:11 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Thoughts and Prognostications on CF etc. Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 05:01:03 +0000 Message-ID: <19970413050101.AAA27440 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"CCrVv3.0.i82.MY6Kp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: With all due respect to the role played by the Fleischmann-Pons "Cold Fusion" effect in giving a wake-up call to fusion science, I think that for other than it's "artifact" Heat Pump effect and an occasional thermonuclear signature due to an effect that Randall Mills is hinting at, the game is over. That leaves the effects noted in the Vortex, Sonoluminescence, and (Lo and Behold) Hot Fusion! At the risk of being a bore, Mills' idea Will Not Work with The Electron, But IF a light electron-positron pair is created,a light negative particle can decay into a proton, deuteron, triton, and even in some instances an alpha particle,ie., a helium atom giving off 256 KeV of energy and creating what Mills is calling the "Hydrino" and in so doing create additional light electron-positron pairs to continue the process. I my book, there is convincing evidence that the light entities exist in some quantities in water and most other hydrogenous materials thus giving subtle hints of their existence in the observed effects. If the different effects can be enhanced to get a "chain" or propagation reaction going, there is a light at the end of the tunnel for getting this energy on line. (and perhaps even detente between the "CF" and "HF" factions) :-) Regards Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 22:50:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA12285; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 22:48:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 22:48:15 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 01:47:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970413014733_-167152313 emout20.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Professor Farrell speaks Resent-Message-ID: <"ikEMv1.0.p_2.UE7Kp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: More from Professor Farrell posted to spf. Vince, Las Vegas Subject: Re: Fractional Quantum Numbers From: J_FARRELL ACAD.FANDM.EDU (John Farrell) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:08:27 GMT Bruce Scott writes: "We observe spectral transitions of electrons bound to hydrogen atoms to stop at an energy of -13.6 eV below marginal binding. Furthermore, we do not observe transitions of fractional N _above_ N=1. Publish such an observation, ie, demonstrate a transition energy not among those involving only integer N by direct observation and not inference, and you will have the opportunity to rewrite atomic physics." OK Bruce. I'll give it a try. Labov and Bowyer (The Astrophysical Journal, Vol 371, 1991, pp 810-819) reported five peaks from the interstellar medium (dark matter) in the EUV (between 80 and 650 A; experimental wavelengths are +/- 5 A ). Table I. Data and Assignments by Labov and Bowyer. peak i; experimental wavelength in A; assignment by Labov and Bowyer; calculated temperature of source gas peak 1: 634; O(4+); 300,000 K peak 2: 582.1; He(1s12p1 to 1s2) peak 3: 299.7; He+(2p1 to 1s1) peak 4: 178.1; Fe(+9) and Fe(+10); 1,000,000 K peak 5: 98.7; Fe(+17) and Fe(+18); Log T = 5,000,000 K Quote from the Labov and Bowyer Introduction. "It is now generally believed that this diffuse soft X-ray background is produced by a high-temperature component of the interstellar medium. However, evidence of the thermal nature of this emission is indirect in that it is based not on observations of line emission, but on indirect evidence that no plausible non-thermal mechanism has been suggested which does not conflict with some component of the observational evidence." Mills and I wrote a paper to Astrophysical Letters & Communications which provided a non-thermal explanation and contained the following assignments: peak i; experimental wavelength in A; wavelength based on Rydberg equation with fractional quantum numbers; assignment by Mills/Farrell peak 1: 634; 632.6; He scattering of 303.9 line (That is, the 303.9 A photon from the n = 1 to n = 1/2 H atom strikes a He atom and excites the He atom to the 1s1 2p1 state--leaving a photon of 632.6 A) peak 2: 582.1; 584; He(1s1 2p1 to 1s2) peak 3: 299.7; 303.9; n = 1 to n = 1/2 peak 4: 178.1; 182.4; n = 1/2 to n = 1/3 peak 5: 98.7; 101.3; n = 1/4 to n = 1/5 These assignments are **remarkable** because the wavelength span is some 600 A and all of the five observed peaks are assignable based on fractional quantum states of hydrogen. (We now know that these transitions do not occur by spontaneous emission of a photon, but I will not give the explanation here as to how they do occur.) (Bruce, the n = 1 is the highest energy, non-radiative hydrogen atom; all n > 1 hydrogen atoms are radiative.) Similar assignments can be made from the Sun, other stars, and other sections of the interstellar medium (than Labov and Bowyer). Why is there a solar neutrino problem? Because most of the heat from the Sun does not come from fusion--it comes from transitions to lower than n = 1 hydrogen atoms. Why is the corona at 1-2 million K whereas the solar "surface" is at 6000 K? Because when three H atoms collide, two of the H atoms are a catalyst (27.2 eV energy sink) for the third H atom, which undergoes a transition to the n = 1/2 level. When a n = 1/2 H atom collides with a n = 1/2 H atom , a n = 1/3 H atom is produced (along with the emission of a photon). And so on. (The foregoing is simply a short description of what happens, and is by no means meant as a derivation or proof.) The corona is a perfect environment for H transitions to fractional quantum states. (Does this qualify as a water heater???) My point is this. Most of the universe of comprised of fractional state hydrogen atoms. We have not seen the evidence because (1) we haven't looked (the EUV is a difficult region to study), and (2) when someone points it out we say it can't be true because current theory says so. I hope you are correct Bruce. I would very much like to rewrite atomic physics. (What a choice, Bruce. Labov/Bowyer with dark matter at 1,000,000 K or Mills/Farrell with fractional quantum numbers!!) You haven't heard from me for a while. I have been busy. Things are going well with regard to the theoretical and experimental aspects of this phenomenon. I now return to my work. You won't hear from me for while, again. Best regards to all. John Farrell ************************************************************************** John J. Farrell email J_FARRELL ACAD.FANDM.EDU Chemistry Department Phone 717-291-3803 Franklin & Marshall College FAX 717-291-4343 Lancaster, PA 17604 USA ************************************************************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 22:51:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA12237; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 22:48:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 22:48:00 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 01:47:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970413014723_185189063 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Professor Farrell Speaks Resent-Message-ID: <"4lVji3.0.7_2.FE7Kp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This was posted to spf. May be of some interest here. Vince, Las Vegas Subject: Re: Fractional Quantum Numbers From: J_FARRELL ACAD.FANDM.EDU (John Farrell) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:12:16 GMT Well. Mr. Nice Guy (Dick Blue) continues with his gentle criticism of other people's work and ideas. Terms such as " silliness of Randell Mills has once again reared its ugly head", "this garbage" , "skrinky-dink" flow from his lips like pearls of wisdom for the swine. First, let me deal with some specifics from Blue. Blue writes: "The origin of the "sub-ground states" is somewhat confusing within the quantum theory because the essence of the term "quantum" is something that cannot be further subdivided." Sorry Dick, "quantum" does not mean that at all. Look it up in any general chemistry or general physics book. Blue writes: "The groundstate (sic) in the Mills model is just the standard Bohr model, and when you quantize angular momentum you really can't have less than one unit. (Zero anglular momentum states are not part of the Bohr picture because, classically, that is a state of zero kinetic energy.) So if the normal ground state of hydrogen is the state of minimum angular momentum and angular momentum is quantized and indivisable how does one get lower?" If a student turned the above in to me I would send it back for a rewrite. It is totally unintelligible, and it contains incorrect statements. (The spelling errors are excusable.) Blue writes: "The radius of the nth excited state follows from Eq. 1.172 and Eq. 2.4. Rn = n Ah . [I include that just to show that we have here the standard spectrum of excites states for n = 1 and greater. That is followed immediately by:" Blue can't even get standard quantum theory correct. We *don't* have the standard spectrum of excited states here. In Schrodinger's quantum mechanics Rn is proportional to n^2 not n. Blue writes: Now I suppose you are just not supposed to notice that these photons which have NO CHARGE are magically transformed such that inside the orbitsphere they produce a net charge. I have several reading suggestions here. First, read your general physics book about "pair production" where a photon becomes an electron and a positron (ahhhh, more magic). Second, read a book about microwave resonator cavities and the production of surface charge. Third, examine Maxwell's equation in two dimensions about surface charge, see equation 2.11 in Mills latest edition (p 81). Blue writes: "I also think you would find it instructive to estimate the wavelength of the typical absorbed photon and compare it to the size of this "spherical resonator cavity." I think Blue would be well advised to measure the length of his radio antenna and to calculate the wavelength of the signal from his local radio station. Blue writes: "Oh, I should tell you the title of this fine work. Randell Mills quite modestly calls it, "The Theory of Everything." Read it and weep, Dick. (BTW, the latest edition is titled " The Grand Unified Theory of Classical Quantum Mechanics". Please note that Blue has not answered any of the questions that I posed: 1. The electron in the H atom is under constant acceleration. Why doesn't it radiate? 2. He is the next simplest element, other than H. What are the solutions to the Schrodinger equation for He? 3. The H2 molecule is the simplest stable molecule. What are the solutions to the Schrodinger equation for H2? 4. Show how, given the mass of the electron, the electron spins and gives rise to the measured spin angular momentum (the so-called *intrinsic* spin angular momentum). I assure you that Blue will not answer these questions--because they are not answerable with Schrodinger's quantum mechanics. QM is in shambles. It cannot solve *any* physical problem, starting with the hydrogen atom. (Dirac could only show that an additional quantum number (spin) was needed. He could not derive the spin angular momentum because there is not physical model for the origin of the spin.) Scientistsdo not use quantum mechanics because it is correct. We use QM because, until recently, it has been the only game in town. The variational principle and perturbation methods (which are, basically, guesses to the solutions of the Schrodinger equation) have enabled quantum to hang on in spite of its inherent drawbacks. Essentially 99.9999% of all calculations done by chemists are "semi-empirical" calculations becuase QM can't cut the mustard. In the last 20 years or so, the situation with QM has deteriorated greatly. In addition to its inability to explain known phenomena (such as superconductivity), QM has had to increasingly resort to spooky action at distances, atoms being in two places at one time, energy spontaneously generating from free space, division by infinity to "make things come out right", and so on. There are even physicists who believe that a physical entity does not have a certain property until it is measured! Some physicists, including Dick Blue, are apparently trapped in an incorrect and an increasingly absurd theoretical framework. They are afraid to leave the pentagram for fear of being burned by the candles. What truly surprises me is that the true believers (QM) furiously attack those individuals who are attempting to come up with alternative solutions. Pons, Fleischman, Bockris and others are not mad dogs. These are people who are earnestly trying to solve some of the fundamental problems facing modern science. They have, by and large, been very successful. In my case, I have publications in Nature, Journal Chemical Physics, Journal of Applied Physics, Inorganic Chemistry, Journal of Coordination Chemistry, BYTE, and written several books. I continue with a wide range of teaching activities, including running a symposium at the American Chemical Society Convention next week in San Francisco. The accomplishments of Pons, Fleischman, and Bockris have been about two orders of magnitude greater than mine. Does this mean that Pons, Fleischman, and Bockris are correct. Of course not. Now, consider this. I send Dick Blue an early version of what was to be a book on a new theory of everything (this term, TOE, has a particular meaning in the physics community). Does Blue read it with relish in order to discover both its beauty and to inform me of areas that are either incorrect or need improvement? Does he want to improve the quality the work? No. He reads it with relish--to find errors so that he can cast stones. He inflates his ego and he tries to convince others that *he* knows all. This is not the hallmark of a scientist. Blue missed his calling. He should have been a lawyer. I challenge *any* physicist to answer the four questions above. After that, how about oxygen, benzene, carbon tetrachloride, glycine, Au, norborane, any nucleus, neutrinos, quarks, gluons, superconductivity, why is the corona of the Sun at 2,000,000 K whereas the Sun's surface is at 6,000 K, why is the Sun spinning so slowly, why is there a solar neutrino problem. Did I mention hemoglobin? Got all the answers Blue? I think not. A note to the cold fusion people. Don't let people like Blue deter you from science. I do not subscribe to the notion that the heat observed by Pons and Fleischman and others is caused by fusion. But I am often wrong. The universe is a wonderful and exciting place, and we have only touched the surface of what can be known about it. Don't let anyone, yet alone Blue, convince you otherwise. Best regards, John Farrell ************************************************************************** John J. Farrell email J_FARRELL ACAD.FANDM.EDU Chemistry Department Phone 717-291-3803 Franklin & Marshall College FAX 717-291-4343 Lancaster, PA 17604 USA ************************************************************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 22:52:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA17459; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 22:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 22:48:44 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 01:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970413014746_384760264 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Professor Farrell speaks Resent-Message-ID: <"gFCCy3.0.jG4.wE7Kp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: More from Professor Farrell posted to spf. Vince, Las Vegas Subject: Franctional Quantum States of Hydrogen From: J_FARRELL ACAD.FANDM.EDU (John Farrell) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:56:31 GMT I do not intend to directly respond to questions about the Mills/Farrell interpretation of the Labov and Bowyer dark matter EUV data because I know that I will get hundreds of inquiries and I simply do not have the time--particularly over the net which I find extremely cumbersome. However I will respond to this one inquiry by "Meric" who writes: >Well, I keep an open mind on new theories but extraordinary >claims require extraordinary proofs especially when it comes >to rewriting the atomic physics... > >In your interpretation of the data I see that you allow the existence >of He. Then why not the 303.9 A transition is not a He+ transition? >Just because it fits your formula for n=1 to n=1/2 with for hydrogen? >I see that you are using En=13.6/n^2 as the energy levels with n being >fractional values...Take the He+ case...En is actually approximately >En=13.6 Z^2/n^2 and for He+ case, Z=2, n=1 to n=2 transition has >wavelength of 303.9 A too... For multilevel atoms effective Z has to be used >and you would get Fe+ transitions too. It is not clear to me at all the basis >of your theory. Are you saying that in order to explain the experimental >data temperatures must be very high? If so how come the temperature is >not so high in your case? Are we grounding here Boltzman as well? > >Best regards.... > > > >Meric You are correct, the 303.9 A transition *could* be the 2p1 to 1s1 transition of He+. But, the 3p1 to 1s1 transition of He+ should be found at 256.3 A--it's not there. Can I be certain that the 303.9 peak is not He+? No, but I would like to know why the 256.2 peak is not there. (I'll save you some time, the relative intensities of these peaks, 303.9:256.3 is 10:3) Meric, be careful with the term effective Z ("multilevel atoms effective Z"). I used the term "effective nuclear charge" some years ago on this net and Dick Blue, who is epoxied to the Schrodinger/Heisenberg quantum theory, claimed that Mills and I were violating conservation of charge! We are not grounding Boltzman. The question is a good one and it illustrates an important feature of these fractional quantum states of hydrogen. The Einstein coefficient of spontaneous emission, A, to the fractional quantum states (1/2, 1/3, 1/4, ...) is zero. Getting to these states is not a matter of emission of a photon to get to a lower energy state. It is similar to a *chemical reaction*. The reaction H + H = H2 + photon does not occur even though H2 is a lower energy than 2H--a third body must take the energy away. Furthermore, if you have a chemical reaction that requires a catalyst, the *actual* ratio of product to reactant is not determined by the Boltzman distribution. The *actual* ratio is determined by the presence or lack of a catalyst, the energy change, and the entropy change for the process. In order to go from n =1 to n = 1/2 or from n = 1/2 to n = 1/3, an energy sink of 27.2 eV ( actually, the value of the potential energy of the H atom) must "collide" or be in close proximity to the H atom. For example, when three H atoms collide (say near the Sun's surface), two of the H atoms are ionized (requires 2 x 13.6 eV) and the third undergoes the transition from n = 1 to n = 1/2. The energy difference, n = 1 to n = 1/2 is 40.8 eV. Of that, 27.2 eV goes to ionization of the two H atoms--that leaves 13.6 eV emitted as a photon, 912 A. There is large peak at 912 A from the Sun's surface and prominences. This peak has been interpreted as e(-) + p(+) = H(n = 1). Fair enough. The problem is that the peak begins sharply at 912 and slowly tails off toward ****shorter**** wavelengths (to 456 A)-- a fact that has baffled astronomers. This peak, its tail, and its second edge at 729 A is easily explainable given the mechanism above (I will not explain here). I do not believe that dark matter is hot (1,000,000 K). It is cold! In order to see transitions from Fe(+10) it would have to be hot (Boltzman). Transitions to fractional quantum states can occur with cold or hot H-- the important fact is that you need H atoms and a suitable catalyst (2 other H atoms for instance; Rb+ for instance; 2 K+ for instance; and so on). (Hot is better because there are more collisions.) To me, the term "hot dark matter" is absurd. Finally, let me say this. Schrodinger's quantum mechanics has been very useful over the years, and it certainly has been the best theory available. However, it is wrong. Very wrong. (BTW, I have taught QM for 32 years.) There are millions (literally) of questions that QM can not answer. I challenge anyone to answer any *one* of the following: 1. The electron in the H atom is under constant acceleration. Why doesn't it radiate? 2. He is the next simplest element, other than H. What are the solutions to the Schrodinger equation for He? 3. The H2 molecule is the simplest stable molecule. What are the solutions to the Schrodinger equation for H2? 4. Show how, given the mass of the electron, the electron spins and gives rise to the measured spin angular momentum (the so-called *intrinsic* spin angular momentum). As Dick Blue would say, rinky-dink QM (or (QED) just can't do it. Best regards (and good-bye for a while). John Farrell ************************************************************************** John J. Farrell email J_FARRELL ACAD.FANDM.EDU Chemistry Department Phone 717-291-3803 Franklin & Marshall College FAX 717-291-4343 Lancaster, PA 17604 USA ************************************************************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 23:02:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA18069; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 23:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 23:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:18:15 -0500 (GMT) From: Carlos Henry Castano To: grupo de discusion Cc: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Hi, i have a question..... In-Reply-To: <19970412195002.AAA26728 LOCALNAME> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"eY29j3.0.FQ4.sP7Kp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you for your calcules, your time and your effort, this is very interesting... On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > At the cathode: > > 2 K+ plus 2e = 2K plus 5.69E5 joules (input) > > 2 K + 2 H2O = 2KOH + H2 minus 4.02E5 joules (exotherm) > > At the Anode: > > 2 OH- minus 2e = 2 OH plus 3.85E5 joules (input) > > 2 OH = H2O + O minus 1.72E5 joules (exotherm) > > Recombining the H2 and O: > > H2 + O = H2O (liquid) minus 2.386E5 joules (exotherm) > > Exotherm = 8.13E5 joules > > Input = 9.54E5 joules > > Net = 9.45E5 - 8.13E5 = 1.141E5 joules needed from the battery to ......it is 1.414E5 (no problem, it's not important) > run the electrolysis in the cell to generate a mole of H2O. > this would mean that 1.2E24 electrons have to flow for a given > period of time. Assuming 3 amperes, (1.875E19 electrons/second) > at 2.5 volts (7.5 watts) for 1.2E24/1.875E19 = 6.4E4 seconds = 17.77 hours. > > So you are putting in 7.5 joule/second for 6.4E4 seconds = 4.8E5 joules > where you only need 1.141E5. up to here i agree with you except a couple of details.... (i believe...) the reaction: K+ plus e- -- K , have a Eo(volts) v.s. N.H.E.= -2,925v i'm not sure but with 2,5 volts among the anode and catode may be the reaction not happen (in any way is difficult because the water is discompund before). it is lacking the reaction: KOH (ac) --- K+ plus OH- this reaction give more energy at the exothermic balance. > So do you get an O.U. indication > of 4.8E5/1.141E5 or about 3.4 or so, depending on the type of electrodes > and electrolyte, and possibly contact potential enhancement from > the materials used? i'm not agree, you say that the electric input are 4,8E5 joules, and the thermic output would be maximum (4,8E5-1,414E5 joules) 3,39E5joules, therefore, %exc. heat = [ (out thermic - electric in)/(electric in) ]*100 %exc. heat in this cell = (3.39E5-4.8E5)*100/4.8E5 = - 29,4 % not +340% how you say, i think so, what do you think? moreover, the electric input is the more trust data in the experiment (it's easy to measure), and the heat freed by the cell is a bit more difficult. Best wishes, Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo Ingeniero Quimico Laboratorio de Electroquimica Universidad Nacional de Colombia, Sede Medellin. p.s. can you recommend me, some good manual of propierty of ions? (delta G, delta h, and so on, in my lab we are lacking some one), and please excuse my english, not is very good. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 23:30:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA19744; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 23:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 23:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 22:32:19 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Thoughts and Prognostications on CF etc. Resent-Message-ID: <"mw_pf1.0.Qq4.2q7Kp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To Vortex: > >With all due respect to the role played by the Fleischmann-Pons >"Cold Fusion" effect in giving a wake-up call to fusion science, >I think that for other than it's "artifact" Heat Pump effect and >an occasional thermonuclear signature due to an effect that Randall >Mills is hinting at, the game is over. > [snip] >I my book, there is convincing evidence that the light entities exist >in some quantities in water and most other hydrogenous materials thus >giving subtle hints of their existence in the observed effects. [snip] >Regards Frederick Do you have any references to experiments clearly demonstrating that "light entities" (assumed to be light leptons) exist? I understand Dieter Britz' bibliography of refereed article on CF now includes over 600 papers with positive results. How can the game be over for CF and there be convincing evidence for light leptons? It seems to me the scale is heavily tilted the opposite way at this point! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 00:17:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA17457; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:03:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:03:34 -0700 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challen Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:03:27 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <33545c58.10880129 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <199704120531.AAA03525 natasha.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <199704120531.AAA03525 natasha.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"38-67.0.dG4.5L8Kp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:31:28 -0500 (CDT), Scott Little wrote: [snip] >Tom's biggest "problem" is the tiny rate at which his present experiment >produces tritium. It takes several days for enough tritium to accumulate to >be noticed by his very sensitive detectors. As I understand it, management >at LANL is somewhat disappointed that he can't make it explode...:-) [snip] A direct bombardment of D gas with D ions at 2000 eV will also produce some T if I'm not mistaken. I'm curious as to how the reaction rate for this latter process stacks up against the reaction rate that Tom is getting. Any one know? Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 06:40:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA06478; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:38:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:38:38 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:38:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970413093759_82837910 emout16.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fwd: ABC news levitating frogs (002) |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pfWxP1.0.3b1.R7EKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --------------------- Forwarded message: From: zap dnai.com (Fourth Millennium) To: bcarter igc.apc.org (Barry Carter) CC: FZNIDARSIC aol.com, alex@frolov.spb.ru, danny@idir.net, gary.forbat hlos.com.au, gundy111@tpgi.com.au, reed@zenergy.com, wflatow sgl.com.au Date: 97-04-12 02:16:33 EDT Dear Friends, Check out the following web page: http://www-hfml.sci.kun.nl/hfml/levitate.html There are pictures. Here is the text: Molecular Magnetism and Levitation. (The Frog Which Learned to Fly) Seeing is believing: A little frog (alive !) and a water ball levitate inside a Ø40mm vertical bore of a Bitter solenoid in a magnetic field of about 16 Tesla at the Nijmegen High Field Magnet Laboratory. (Click on the images to get a larger one) The image of a high-temperature superconductor levitating above a magnet in fog of liquid nitrogen can hardly surprise anyone these days – it has become common knowledge that superconductors are ideal diamagnetics and magnetic field must expel them. On the other hand, the enclosed photographs of water and a frog hovering inside a magnet (not on board a spacecraft) are somewhat counterintuitive and will probably take many people (even physicists) by surprise. This is the first observation of magnetic levitation of living organisms as well as the first images of diamagnetics levitated in a normal, room-temperature environment (if we disregard the tale about Flying Coffin of Mohammed as such evidence, of course). In fact, it is possible to levitate magnetically every material and every living creature on the earth due to the always present molecular magnetism. The molecular magnetism is very weak (millions times weaker than ferromagnetism) and usually remains unnoticed in everyd! ay life, thereby producing the wrong impression that materials around us are mainly nonmagnetic. But they are all magnetic. It is just that magnetic fields required to levitate all these “nonmagnetic” materials have to be approximately 100 times larger than for the case of, say, superconductors. Whether an object will or will not levitate in a magnetic field B is defined by the balance between the magnetic force F = MB and gravity mg = V g where is the material density, V is the volume and g = 9.8m/s2. The magnetic moment M = (/ µ0)VB so that F = (/µ0)BVB = (/2µ0)VB2. Therefore, the vertical field gradient B2 required for levitation has to be larger than 2µ0 g/. Molecular susceptibilities are typically 10-5 for diamagnetics and 10-3 for paramagnetic materials and, since is most often a few g/cm3, their magnetic levitation requires field gradients ~1000 and 10 T2/m, respectively. Taking l = 10cm as a typical size of high-field magnets and B2 ~ B2/l as an estimate, we find that fields of the order of 1 and 10T are sufficient to cause levitation of para- and diamagnetics. This result should not come as a surprise because, as we know, magnetic fields of less than 0.1T can levitate a superconductor (= -1) and, from the formulas above, the magnetic force increases as B2! . The water and the frog are but two examples of magnetic levitation. We have observed plenty of other materials floating in magnetic field - from simple metals (Bi and Sb), liquids (propanol, acetone and liquid nitrogen) and various polymers to everyday things such as various plants and living creatures (frogs and fish). We hope that our photographs will help many – particularly, non-physicists – to appreciate the importance of magnetism in the world around us. For instance, it is not always necessary to organize a space mission to study the effects of microgravity– some experiments, e.g. plants or crystal growth, can be performed inside a magnet instead. Importantly, the ability to levitate does not depend on the amount of material involved, V, and high-field magnets can be made to accommodate large objects, animals or even man. In the case of living organisms, no adverse effects of strong static magnetic fields are known – after all, our frog levitated in fields comparable t! o those used in commercial in-vivo imaging systems (currently up to 10T). The small frog looked comfortable inside the magnet and, afterwards, happily joined its fellow frogs in a biology department. A.K. Geim, J.C. Maan. The work is featured in: Physics World, April 1997, p. 28 A.K. Geim et al, Molecular Magnetism and Levitation, in Proceeding of European Low Gravity Association (ELGRA), Biannual Meeting, Paris, 17 March 1997. Go to the HFML Home Page. Last updated on 25-mar-97 ln At 05:57 PM 4/11/97 -0700, you wrote: > Did anyone see the levitating frogs and caterpillars in a circular magnet on the news? > > With Kindest Regards, Barry Carter Blue Mountain Native Forest Alliance Voice 541-523-3357 Fax 541-523-9438 At this very moment, lawless logging is destroying the ecosystems which provide the air we breathe and the water we drink. Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 06:56:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA07766; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:54:23 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970413095329_1650260038 emout20.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: cavitator Resent-Message-ID: <"iYvAh2.0.Gv1.DMEKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5930 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am liking these words, Horace! I have been thinking about what a good cavitator I could make using my Sears router. .............................................................................. .............................. No No No Frank Stenger.... Go to Sears and fork out about $300 and purchase a deep well venturi pump. Operate the venturi at 150 deg F at a vacuum of -10PSI. You will have the best Yusmar system in the world. I have all of the parts but just have not put them together yet. Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 08:14:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA15045; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:12:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:12:47 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:17:12 -0800 To: fstenger interlaced.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Cavitator-Frank Z.-Horace Resent-Message-ID: <"VqmVu3.0._g3.kVFKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:08 PM 4/12/97, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> > >> However this is not what I had in mind - it is the other kind of >> cavitation, caused by high velocity and surface vorticies. What I had in >> mind was designing a fluidic circuit. > >I'm with you on that, Horace. But remember, cavatation is a major >design problem for high speed, high shear boat props. I've seen photos >of cavitated boat props that look way more cratered than a CF electrode. >I think cavitation is cavitation - if it's strong and in the right >fluid. Yes. However cavitation generated by shear or friction may be very costly in terms of energy converted directly to heat vs energy spent compressing "active site" bubbles. Also, metallic targets like Russ George has used get wiped out fast. They loose integrity, so target geometry can't be depended upon. If the active sites are in colloidal form they can be placed in or moved through the high compression zone through flow management, and also dynamically recycled (removed, reprocessed, and replaced) in an operating unit without a shutdown. >> >> A fluidic amplifier, driven at two or three thousand PSI by a hydraulic >> pump, could be used to drive a resonant oscillation chamber. > >Yes, an off-the-shelf pressure washer ( 500 bucks, and you could use it >chase brown bears away from your garbage cans too!) can deliver such >pressures. No worry about the brown bears. I just stand up, put my hands into the air, and jump up and down stomping my feet. I'm overweight enough now that it drives them off. (^8 just kidding! 8^) Pressure washer might be useful for Moose. It has taken over 20 minutes to drive them out of our backyard so as to be able to get into our car. Banging on pots and pans works eventually. I have a Sears pressure washer. Pressure washers are low power though. It would be good to be able to drive a lot of bubbles, and a large volume, the idea partially being to produce and drive a lot more active sites than those created by contamination. I was thinking 10KW or more, but maybe small is OK for a test of a very small unit? Not sure you can scale down, though. Why not build something that can heat a house? Probably costs about as much, except for the pump. I think the problem you bring up of cycling the hot water out of the active site, and the problem of moving fluid through the site fast enough to avoid boiling, are significant. The active fluid, including colloids, would have to be driven through a heat exchanger. It is not necessary the active fluid be water. It might be a silicon based oil for example. Using a dielectric or semiconductive fluid might permit using a HF electrostatic field for bubble formation on the metallic colloids. (Hey, this is brainstroming mode, what do you want for nothing!) Atlernatively, initial bubble formation on the colloids might be assisted by discharging a capacitor through the active site area. However, that might just simply take away from the COP. Another idea is hydroginating the oil or water in a separate stage before it goes into the reaction chamber. I was thinking that if 2000 PSI peak to peak waves can be created by the final stage fluidic amplifier, then channeling these pulses into a widening funnel might increase the peak to peak preasure by a factor of up to 10. Using reflective focusing, or fludic lenses, the energy might be further focused into the active area (or is this wishful thinking - that you can gain peak pressure from both wave front expansion and focusing?) Resonance should be able to add another factor of 2 to 4 to the peak to peak pressure range. The chamber would have to be very strong to withstand the pressures and vibrations involved. I'm not sure resonance is even benficial. If the idea is to drive as many bubbles as possible, they are going to absorb a lot of energy. Here is a thought for a chamber design: A / | \ / | \ / | \ M M M X M M___M A - final stage fluidic amplifier outputs directly into two sides of chamber | - central barrier separating two sides of reaction chamber M - concave mirror surface on interior of chamber to focus pressure waves onto X. X - active area. Fluid flow through X is out of page. The chamber would be cut from a block of steel. [snip] >Hey, how does that sound?: > > 1. Hermetically sealed (after outgas) pyrex glass test > container. > 2. Two metal-to-glass seals for the two driver coil leads. > > 3. Nickel wire driver coil around a tuned nickel slug > armature - teflon slug suspension at the sonic node > of the slug (maybe a 1/2 wave slug with center node). > 4. Driver oscillator/amplifier - a few hundred watts at > ultrasonic frequency. (I have ~ 400 watt, 75 kHz osc.!) > >Frank Stenger More good ideas. Some oscillator! What kind of voltage? Is it suitable for driving big piezos? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 09:23:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA22729; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:21:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:21:42 -0700 Message-ID: <33510832.78A4 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:22:10 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: cavitator References: <970413095329_1650260038 emout20.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"G7EON1.0._Y5.LWGKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > > Go to Sears and fork out about $300 and purchase a deep well venturi pump. > Operate the venturi at 150 deg F at a vacuum of -10PSI. You will have the > best Yusmar system in the world. I have all of the parts but just have not > put them together yet. > OK, Frank - get to it and let us know what happens! I still think you may be a little too Ruso-centric about the Yusmar. The next time you get together with Russians, lets have more talk and less vodka! Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 09:31:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA19721; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:27:28 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970413122626_1650272985 emout16.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: The Faraday Homopolar Generator Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"dyf_e2.0.xp4.ibGKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Dear All, I am glad to present you, a very simple experiment ( 5 minutes to build ) about the Faraday Homopolar Generator Experiment. With this experiment you can test by yourself, that the centrifugal extraction from the inertial field of space is possible, that was first demonstrated by Faraday in 1831. Magnetic field energy act as a MAGNETIC VORTEX if we rotate the magnetic field on its axis and we can extract free energy to produce electricity. My device is a demonstrator, this is not a power supply for your home, but this experiment is only to prove that the Faraday homopolar generator principle is working, and you can test it by yourself. I give you the direct link to my web site : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/images/farhom.htm Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509@aol.com my Overunity WEB Server< /A> : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm WWPager, UIN: 747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 10:57:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA01148; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:54:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:54:58 -0700 Date: 13 Apr 97 13:53:02 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challen Message-ID: <970413175302_100433.1541_BHG62-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"5AO_c1.0.pH.ntHKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman suggests: > So, I propose a CF literature challenge. the basic idea is that > the CF proponents find the "top 10" published CF reports, and a > group of skeptics will critique this research, and then a group of > proponents can also rebut their critiques. As has been pointed out, discussions on CF results have been held and are pretty conclusive. The classic F&P paper in Phys Letts A for around 1 May 1993 was the subject of a confrontation (in PLA too, I think, but Jed Rothwell certainly has an email version) between F&P and Morrison. Barry says he has no time for literature study, but I suggest that if he or anyone else) wishes to see the CF debate in microcosm they should study the paper and the subsequent debate - of course bearing in mind that Longchampt et al have fully replicated that experiment. Further, they should also read the report on the paper in New Scientist for that date. They will find there some pretty typical CF reporting as practised by science journalists, and should also know that NS (which *always* acks any communication) failed to acknowledge or print my perfectly polite faxed and mailed letter which pointed out the many errors in their report. I ask Barry to do this and report his comments here. I would also ask that all scientists make the 'mental leap' to divorce the various models and theories espoused by CF scientists from the experimental findings. I find it a depressing failure of mental competence that so many critics seem unable to do this. The essential arguments of the 'sceptics' is nowadays reduced to the following - and I would suggest that just about any of the revered scientists of past (and, I believe, more competent) times would spin in their tombs if they heard it: 1. Without a theory your results may safely be ignored. So, what is your theory? 2. OK, so you've got a theory. But your theory is in conflict with our understanding of physics. It is therefore wrong, and therefore your experimental findings may safely be ignored. It should be noted here that one of the standard errors of science is to test a theory within its sphere of application, and then assume that its apparent correctness within that sphere may be applied to the universe. Thus, if CF is - as it certainly seems to be - at least partly 'nuclear' in character, then its conflict with accepted theory proves it is nonsense. But it is at least conceivable that a massively multi-body process might be occurring, and nuclear physics as we know it would not apply - because the nature of that branch of physics is to study the interactions of single nuclei and particles. Whatever is happening will not be found out by discussion, nor will any debate alter the perception of CF in the minds of scientists. That is because scientists are the same as everyone else - except in that they like to pretend that they are rational and clear-thinking people, which they are no more so than anyone else. The only thing which will make them sit up and take notice would be the commercial sale of working CF devices. Another error they make is in assuming that they are more important and more necessary than other people. Yet many technologies have been brought to practical sue without their help - or even despite their opposition. Scientists really aren't very important people, and whether or not they accept CF will have little impact on the development of the technology. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 12:32:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA10930; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:27:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:27:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3351336A.F3 worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:26:42 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; U; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: cavitator References: <970413095329_1650260038 emout20.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8_L691.0.ig2.HEJKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For what it's worth, 2 Dremel tools with bits having 1/2" diameter ends running face to face would have an edge speed differential of over 4000 mph. Faces could have dimples, ridges or grooves, etc. Fluorescent dye in the water might help illuminate any UV. | | _________ | | __________ \ | | | | / Dremel |=====| |=====| Dremel _________/ | | | | \__________ | | | | |_________| Tool bits poke through rubber seals on the walls of the plastic vessel. Some slight danger of catastrophic falure is probably present. Wear much protective gear. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 12:34:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA11686; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:33:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:33:09 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:33:02 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704131933.OAA26559 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Claytor's reactions Resent-Message-ID: <"2dQWG1.0.Ws2.qJJKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:03 4/13/97 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >A direct bombardment of D gas with D ions at 2000 eV will also produce some >T if I'm not mistaken. I'm curious as to how the reaction rate for this >latter process stacks up against the reaction rate that Tom is getting. >Any one know? Tom's reaction is conducted at about .8 atmospheres of D gas pressure. At that pressure the mean free path is so tiny that it is virtually impossible for a D ion could gain anything close to 2000 eV of energy before hitting another D. Tom is running at about that voltage (2kV) but he assured me that he had long ago dismissed the direct reaction as a possible explanation for his observed T production rate. Wild Speculation Alert: Still...I wonder if some really unexpected condition could arise in the plasma that would create a large voltage drop across a small region of space that was somehow actively swept of ions so there'd be "room" for the necessary acceleration to occur. Do we have any plasma experts who could comment on the possibility of this? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 13:27:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA13230; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:24:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Spark Activated Water Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:23:38 +0000 Message-ID: <19970413202336.AAA6838 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"-3wJV.0.eE3.24KKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex: Starting out with water in a beaker and using 120 or 240 V.A.C. line voltage with a series "ballast" of 100 watt light bulbs and using the necessary precautions against getting electrocuted, set up a discharge in the water using nails, baling wire, carbon rods, or whatever. Filter if desired, but do not run it through an ion exchange resin, unless, you want to see what changes the resins make. Use this Catalyst Activated Water for whatever tests suit your fancy. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 13:46:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA14942; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:47:57 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Spark Activated Water Resent-Message-ID: <"CztaQ2.0.Kf3.PMKKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To Vortex: > >Starting out with water in a beaker and using 120 or 240 V.A.C. >line voltage with a series "ballast" of 100 watt light bulbs and using >the necessary precautions against getting electrocuted, set up a discharge >in the water using nails, baling wire, carbon rods, or whatever. > >Filter if desired, but do not run it through an ion exchange resin, >unless, you want to see what changes the resins make. > >Use this Catalyst Activated Water for whatever tests suit your fancy. :-) > >Regards, Frederick What is the purpose? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 13:48:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA15121; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33514622.3F41 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:46:26 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: monteverde worldnet.att.net CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: cavitator References: <970413095329_1650260038 emout20.mail.aol.com> <3351336A.F3@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PUkT91.0.9i3.MOKKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > For what it's worth, 2 Dremel tools with bits having 1/2" diameter ends > running face to face would have an edge speed differential of over 4000 > mph. Faces could have dimples, ridges or grooves, etc. Fluorescent dye > in the water might help illuminate any UV. > > | | > _________ | | __________ > \ | | | | / > Dremel |=====| |=====| Dremel > _________/ | | | | \__________ > | | > | | > |_________| > > Tool bits poke through rubber seals on the walls of the plastic vessel. > Some slight danger of catastrophic falure is probably present. Wear much > protective gear. > Good idea variation, Rick! I still hold out for the ability to boil the water for outgassing. Could drill holes in sides of a pyrex container and fit teflon shaft seals. It would also be neat to be able to pressurize the water without exposing it directly to the pressure fluid - maybe a bladder or diaphragm of some type. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 14:26:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA18924; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <335143E8.5863 pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:36:56 -0700 From: Hank Scudder Organization: Stochastic Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-PBXE (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fwd: ABC news levitating frogs (002) |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| References: <970413093759_82837910 emout16.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"l-_wE3.0.cd4.axKKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > > --------------------- > Forwarded message: > From: zap dnai.com (Fourth Millennium) > To: bcarter igc.apc.org (Barry Carter) > CC: FZNIDARSIC aol.com, alex@frolov.spb.ru, danny@idir.net, > gary.forbat hlos.com.au, gundy111@tpgi.com.au, reed@zenergy.com,Frederick What is a bitter solenoid. What is it bitter about?:>} Hank > wflatow sgl.com.au > Date: 97-04-12 02:16:33 EDT > > Dear Friends, > Check out the following web page: > http://www-hfml.sci.kun.nl/hfml/levitate.html > There are pictures. Here is the text: > > Molecular Magnetism and Levitation. > (The Frog Which Learned to Fly) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 14:38:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA23556; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:37:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:37:14 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:41:34 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: cavitator Resent-Message-ID: <"dTayn.0.-l5.98LKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:26 AM 4/13/97, Rick Monteverde wrote: >For what it's worth, 2 Dremel tools with bits having 1/2" diameter ends >running face to face would have an edge speed differential of over 4000 >mph. [snip] >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI For a 0.5 inch dia. bit turning at 30,000 RPM I get 44.6 MPH = (0.5 in)(3.14159)(1/(12 in/ft))(1/(5280 ft/mi))(30,000RPM)(60min/hr) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 15:50:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA00369; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:49:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:49:13 -0700 Message-ID: <335162BC.7D6F worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:48:30 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; U; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: cavitator References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DH1662.0.e5.eBMKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > For a 0.5 inch dia. bit turning at 30,000 RPM I get 44.6 MPH = > > (0.5 in)(3.14159)(1/(12 in/ft))(1/(5280 ft/mi))(30,000RPM)(60min/hr) It's two of them opposed ~25,000 rpm each, 50,000 rpm. I get 74mph when I'm thinking straight. They *seem* so much faster! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 18:54:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA19272; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:52:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:52:30 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:51:55 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: Scott Little cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Claytor's reactions In-Reply-To: <199704131933.OAA26559 natasha.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"nLMFe1.0.2j4.TtOKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Scott Little wrote: > Wild Speculation Alert: > > Still...I wonder if some really unexpected condition could arise in the > plasma that would create a large voltage drop across a small region of space > that was somehow actively swept of ions so there'd be "room" for the > necessary acceleration to occur. Do we have any plasma experts who could > comment on the possibility of this? > If such were the case the reaction d + d => 3He + n would produce a fantastic flux of neutrons, easily detectable by someone of Tom's expertise. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 20:26:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA27960; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:21:20 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challen In-Reply-To: <970413175302_100433.1541_BHG62-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"qEvF3.0.lq6.GBQKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 13 Apr 1997, Chris Tinsley wrote: > Scientists really aren't very important people, and whether or not they > accept CF will have little impact on the development of the technology. > One only has to look at relative salries to know this is true! On the other hand why outfits like CETI and E-QUEST go to great lengths to prevent the best data "from getting out"? Apparently to prevent massive intense worldwide competition from the Scientific Establishment. In this sense Scientists as opinion leaders do have a major role to play. There would be a major concentration of resources and billions of dollars spent on development if Mainstream Science were convinced there was something in CF. I think there is finite chance that CF will be abandonded without mainstream support. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 22:55:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA15507; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:53:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:53:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3351C5B3.5DB7 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:20:44 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Faraday Homopolar Generator Experiment References: <970413122626_1650272985 emout16.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Rvi13.0.Do3.5PSKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > > Dear All, > > I am glad to present you, a very simple experiment ( 5 minutes to build ) > about the Faraday Homopolar Generator Experiment. With this experiment you > can test by yourself, that the centrifugal extraction from the inertial field > of space is possible, that was first demonstrated by Faraday in 1831. > Magnetic field energy act as a MAGNETIC VORTEX if we rotate the magnetic > field on its axis and we can extract free energy to produce electricity. > My device is a demonstrator, this is not a power supply for your home, but > this experiment is only to prove that the Faraday homopolar generator > principle is working, and you can test it by yourself. Hi Jean-Louis Looks like a Tolman Effect generator, except the central magnet causes the electrons to follow a spiral outward path to the rim. Suspect the spiral path causes a greater EMF to be generated that in a straight Tolman spinning disk. What tests have you done to investigate the relationship between output current and driving torque? -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 23:00:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA16154; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:59:08 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: cavitator Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:58:37 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3355c2b7.15215156 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <970413095329_1650260038 emout20.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <970413095329_1650260038 emout20.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Yvr7t3.0.Jy3.eUSKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:53:30 -0400 (EDT), FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: [snip] > Operate the venturi at 150 deg F at a vacuum of -10PSI. You will have the What is "-10" PSI? [snip] Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 00:35:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA23499; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:33:27 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970414033223_84631130 emout12.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: About the Hooper device ? Resent-Message-ID: <"PXbls.0.3l5.2tTKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Does someone have made the "Motional Field Generator" device of W.J. Hooper ? I would like to know if this device work really or if it is only a mind's picture ? Thanks for your help... Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509@aol.com my Overunity WEB Server< /A> : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm WWPager, UIN: 747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 01:13:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA25891; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:12:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:12:04 -0700 Date: 14 Apr 97 04:09:48 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" cha Message-ID: <970414080948_100433.1541_BHG38-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"jzHf-2.0.PK6.JRUKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Martin, > One only has to look at relative salries to know this is true! Well, engineers (at least in the UK) get paid even less... > On the other hand why outfits like CETI and E-QUEST go to great > lengths to prevent the best data "from getting out"? Apparently to > prevent massive intense worldwide competition from the Scientific > Establishment. In this sense Scientists as opinion leaders do have > a major role to play. Sounds good, but I doubt that. It would be the big companies with their engineers which would be the competitors - just as it was with the semiconductor revolution. And don't forget that when the theories for transistors started to come in (at the start of the 60s) they were used to show that MOS and amorphous semiconductors would not work. In fact it IS the corporations which are showing interest. One 'opinion former' in one such company recently said to one CF guy, "Well, lately physics has given us the top quark and nothing else - what can YOU give us?" It is the power companies which are supposed to be interested in Mills - and I bet they don't care about his theories. It's Motorola who got interested in CETI, not scientists. I don't blame the scientists. If I'd spent many years of studying physics, the last thing I'd want is anything new coming along. Whilst I think Jed went a bit over the top in his comments, there's no doubt about one thing. Scientists try to find the answer to anything by asking opinion leaders - this came as a great surprise to me in the early days of CF. And a recent BBC Horizon quoted several cancer researchers as saying (quite happily) that the direction of research worldwide is determined by a few 'opinion formers'. > I think there is finite chance that CF will be abandonded without > mainstream support. Of course. But science per se is gradually divorcing itself from the *real* mainstream of life - or that mainstream is moving away from science. I will say that if Barry can't find the time to read the 1993 paper, the subsequent debate, AND the New Scientist article - then I *will* find it difficult to take any of his opinions seriously. Dr Onoochin reminded me of the absurdity of debate as a road to truth in science. He told me the story of the reaction of the Russian Academy audience to Mendeleyev's presentation of his new periodic table. One wag won that debate by standing up and saying, "Dr Mendeleyev, I have an even better idea. Why not arrange the elements in *alphabetical* order?" This fine debating point was received with rapturous applause. And more recently I heard (to my astonishment) an Oxford academic say that the famous Huxley/Wilberforce debate should have been won by 'Soapy' Wilberforce. Essentially, it seems, the debate was on the role of catastrophism - and we now know that Earth's history is defined largely by the series of catastrophe's which have shaped it. (I would add that there is no true record of that debate, so I'm not overly impressed by anyone's opinion of what happened or who won). On a happier note, I have a couple of rather nice quotes. One comes from the huge evacuation of British troops from Dunkirk early in the second world war. On arrival in England, one soldier was asked about his horrific experiences. His response was a classic: "My dear, the noise! And the people!" And another comes from the present British General Election campaign, where one prominent lady Labour Party member is memorably described today by one newspaper as "an only slightly effeminate Geordie trucker." Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 01:25:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA26815; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:24:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:24:13 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:23:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970414042337_672370058 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re : Re: The Faraday Homopolar Generator Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"6aLha.0.vY6.icUKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 13/04/1997 23:53:03 , Felix Meyer wrote : << CONGRATULATIONS --------------- Jean-Louis, this is indeed a very interesting experiment. As you have built it, I would like to ask you some probes: Clarifying these questions will help maybe to understand better the effect. Thanks and regards Felix Meyer mailto:ce3cwf cmet.net >> Dear Felix, My experiment have two main objectives : - Firstly : is only for a demonstration purpose for whose want to build himself and experiment the an Homopolar low cost generator and with simple material. - Secondly : it is for my own feasability study of a real Homopolar O/U generator, and I am interested in the possibility to create a magnetic vortex with a device. This kind device seems to be adapted to create this vortex, but the I don't know today if the instrumental measure is the reflect of the real phenomenon.... Thank you very much for your comments : << - Does the output energy vary, if the disk is hold in different angles with respect to the earth magnetic field ? I ask this to find out, if the generated voltage is produced by the magnetic field in which we are, or if the output is independent of the orientation. - Is the output voltage a linear funcion of the rotating speed ? >> Its a good remark, I haven't tried this measurements, today, but I shall tried this, soon. <<- Is the Voltage (0.5 V) measured with load (mechanical MA-meter) ? or what voltage is measured with a high impedance voltmeter ? - Under what load is the current (1.5 mA) measured ? >> I have used a digital multimeter "Voltcraft VC-506", Voltage measurments : accuracy +- 0.3%, imp > 1 Gohms, Current measurments : acuuracy +-1%, burden voltage 1mV/mA Voltage has been measured with no load, Current has been measured in short-circuit ( burden voltage = 1mV/mA ) I would repeated that this first test is only a demonstration of Faraday Homopolar generator for all science hobbyists which want to test it. I try to introduce the concept : EBTBY = Easy to Build, Try By Yourself Thank you for your input, as soon as I have new results, I shall inform you, Nice to speak with you soon, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509@aol.com my Overunity WEB Server< /A> : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm WWPager, UIN: 747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 01:27:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA25973; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:24:42 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:23:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970414042341_809159839 emout19.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: Puthoff aol.com Subject: Re : Re: The Faraday Homopolar Generator Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"R4kOU1.0.lL6.6dUKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 14/04/1997 07:12:09 , you wrote : << Jean-Louis, Why do you think this is a free energy generator? Robin van Spaandonk >> Unfortunately, I don't think so..... The tests of SUNBURST GENERATOR prove that the efficiency of this machine is UNDERUNITY. These test has been made by Robert Kincheloe, Professor of Electrical Engineering (Emeritus) Stanford University. Bill Beaty has made some excellents tests about this N-Machine you will find all informations at : http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/n-mach.html BUT, BUT....As far as I am concerned I am interested in the possibility to create a MAGNETIC VORTEX with a device. This kind device seems to be adapted to create this vortex, but the I don't know today if the instrumental measure is the reflect of the real phenomenon....If someone have some ideas, you are welcome. Sincerely, Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509@aol.com my Overunity WEB Server< /A> : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm WWPager, UIN: 747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 02:24:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA30720; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:23:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:23:48 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:23:41 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" cha In-Reply-To: <970414080948_100433.1541_BHG38-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"e6HHj3.0.wV7.ZUVKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 14 Apr 1997, Chris Tinsley wrote: > > Sounds good, but I doubt that. It would be the big companies with > their engineers which would be the competitors - just as it was with the > semiconductor revolution. And don't forget that when the theories for > transistors started to come in (at the start of the 60s) they were used > to show that MOS and amorphous semiconductors would not work. > > In fact it IS the corporations which are showing interest. One > 'opinion former' in one such company recently said to one CF guy, "Well, > lately physics has given us the top quark and nothing else - what can > YOU give us?" > This sounds like it might be true. But if there were 1000's of mainstream scientists all trying to understand what's going on, having been convinced that CF is real, imagine the progress that could be made! > It is the power companies which are supposed to be interested in > Mills - and I bet they don't care about his theories. It's Motorola who > got interested in CETI, not scientists. > That's because they're the one's Mills (and CETI) has made his pitch to. Why didn't he go to an American Physical Society meeting set up his demo and say look at this astounding result? Or even more, why didn't CETI set up their 400 watt demo up at an APS meeting? I believe its because the Power Companies would sign a secrecy agreement, Scientists generally won't. > I don't blame the scientists. If I'd spent many years of studying > physics, the last thing I'd want is anything new coming along. > Actually just the opposite is true. We would LOVE to find a new remarkable aspect of nature. It would totally revitalize the field. We've made so much progress in so many fields that finding new things to look for generally requires the absolute latest in technology which in turn costs lots of money which in turn makes the taxpayer ask: Why should we support this arcane field? aka The extremely negative response this group has towards Hot Fusion and big Science in general. I sincerely hope those Gene is right and that pretty soon we'll see astounding demos of devices for sale. Some day I think a history of CETI will make very interesting reading. > Of course. But science per se is gradually divorcing itself from the > *real* mainstream of life - or that mainstream is moving away from > science. > All too true. Partly because of cost, partly because previous successes, the effort required to make "a significant contribution to mankind's knowledge", the requirement for a Ph.D., appears to involve knowledge further and further from impacting peoples everyday lives. Conversely the impact of some really arcane Physics in the early 20th century, Quantum Mechanics, continues to grow on our technological society. And here's one counter example for Jed where Science led technology totally, consider the history of the development of the Laser. That started as a test of an arcane piece of Quantum Mechanics. It's continued development was not made by tinkering with ingredients, but with the application of Scientific insight. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 02:27:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA30892; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:26:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:26:58 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3351F85C.2B5F math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:26:52 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" cha References: <970414080948_100433.1541_BHG38-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JXfPV.0.ZY7.XXVKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > Scientists try to find the answer ...by asking opinion leaders > ....the absurdity of debate as a road to truth in science. Both Chris and Jed have interesting opinions about how scientists doand should work. This is not the place to reeducate them, but I feel a professional duty to say: (a) scientists do not ask opinion leaders to tell them the answers. What we do is ask experts to assess a body of work and zero in on the good and bad parts of it, supporting their comments with precise references to the exisitng bodies of knowledge. Then we are all free to assess these various assertions against the greater body of knowledge, to whatever extent we desire. (b) there is a huge difference by what I mean by scientific or scholarly debate, the colloquial meaning of debate. The former is an appeal the body of sciencetific work, and the latter is an appeal to the emotions. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 05:17:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA08358; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:16:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:16:40 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:16:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Appeal for modern phys. chem. data Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ZN1jN2.0.W22.d0YKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortex, Experiencing information overload. Enough libraries, enough dusty tomes which make my eyes water and me sneeze. I looking for water/hygroscopic agent vapour pressure curves: vapour pressure vs composition with several graphs at different temperatures. Younger members are a bit spoonfed today, and I have trouble visualizing pages of columns of data - graphics more immediate and punchy. If data computerised, I can put it into a spreadsheet and subject it to all kinds of transforms. Tried the net, still trying. Lots of sh*t on the net! (Heh! Heh! Heh! ;-) Many web servers with chemical data - but not what I want. Remi finally getting hands dirty. ...................................... If you build it, they will come ...................................... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 05:22:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA05864 for billb@eskimo.com; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:22:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: Geotek binghamton.edu Mon Apr 14 05:22:22 1997 Received: from bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu (bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu [128.226.1.18]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA05819 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from geotek.cc.binghamton.edu ([128.226.64.21]) by bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA22682 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:21:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33524B3E.10C3 binghamton.edu> Old-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:20:30 -0700 From: Tom Petruzzelli Reply-To: geotek binghamton.edu Organization: Binghamton University X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: subscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Diagnostic: Added to the subscriber list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: Please add my name to the the vortex-l and the freenrg-l electronic mailing lists. thanks Tom WA2ANG Geotek binghamton.edu From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 07:28:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA22919; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:24:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:24:21 -0700 Date: 14 Apr 97 10:20:01 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Martin's comments about debate Message-ID: <970414142001_72240.1256_EHB86-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"MoKwF.0.tb5.JuZKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Martin Sevior made several good comments: And here's one counter example for Jed where Science led technology totally, consider the history of the development of the Laser. Of course I acknowledge this and many other examples, like penicillin. It is not an iron law that technology leads and science follows. It is merely a social trend, with many noteworthy exceptions. It may even be that science-based breakthroughs are increasing. To quote Tom Crouch: "In the late twentieth century, we regard the flow of technological marvels from basic scientific research as the natural order of things. But this relationship between what one scholar, Edwin Layton, has described as the 'mirror image twins' of science and technology is a relatively new phenomenon. Historically, technological advance has more often preceded and even inspired scientific understanding." On the other hand why do outfits like CETI and E-QUEST go to great lengths to prevent the best data "from getting out"? Apparently to prevent massive intense worldwide competition from the Scientific Establishment. That is not what they claim. They say they do not care about the scientists; they are trying to keep corporations from finding out what they have. There would be a major concentration of resources and billions of dollars spent on development if Mainstream Science were convinced there was something in CF. I think it usually works the other way around. I think that businessmen and industrialists are generally more open minded and objective than scientists. They accept things first, then the scientists come around. I realize that most people think scientists are more open minded, but that has not been my experience. I think there is finite chance that CF will be abandoned without mainstream support. It already has been abandoned. CF has no mainstream business support, which is the only kind that matters. Computers were abandoned after Babbage, and airplanes after Langley's abortive 1903 flights. The question is, how can we bring it back? I feel the only way is with publicity, demonstrations and the sale of kits. That is what I am trying to arrange. Chris wrote: "If I'd spent many years of studying physics, the last thing I'd want is anything new coming along." Martin replies: Actually just the opposite is true. We would LOVE to find a new remarkable aspect of nature. Of course some scientists welcome new discoveries, but the majority try to suppress them. They pay lip service to the value of new discoveries. Ostensibly it is their job to find new things, but that is not how the world works. This reminds me of the statements made by the oil company presidents quoted by Hal Puthoff: "When we take our precious resource out of the ground to make nylons, plastics, drugs, etc., we don't use up much and we have a large profit margin. When we take it out of the ground to power automobiles and heat people's homes, it's like heating your home by burning van Goghs and Picassos." I cannot believe the oil company executives would enjoy losing 81% of their business, even though ostensibly their job is to provide energy to society. Would dentists be overjoyed if a new drug eliminated dental caries, plaque, and all cavities? They support fluoridation . . . but would they be happy to see their jobs eliminated? I don't think so! The mainframe computer companies claimed they were enthusiastic about microcomputers in the early '80s. They said they had plans to hook them up with their big machines. Behind the scenes they detested the small machines, they mocked them, and they were terrified of them. In the early '60s many white people here in Georgia, particularly religious people, claimed they were in favor of integration, which meant letting black people compete economically. To put it mildly, their actions belied their words. Integration had to be forced down their throats by the blacks and the Federal Government, and we still have a long way to go. Lots of people pay lip service to open competition, letting the best man win, out with old - bring in the new, etc., etc. But when it happens to you, *your* ox is gored, and your job is threatened, it is human nature to fight it. Scientists are as human as anyone else. Conventional physicists know that their prestige will be greatly reduced if cold fusion is real and it becomes generally accepted. The ones who have led the charge against cold fusion all these years know they will be mocked and ridiculed for the rest of their lives. Many will find their hard-earned knowledge obsolete, and their jobs eliminated. Plasma physics will become an unfunded backwater if cold fusion succeeds. As Chris and I have pointed out, because the scientists think they are objective, truth seeking machines they fail to recognize just how unfair and irrational they are, just as the Victorians did not realize how often their behavior reflected an obsession with sex. (Covering piano legs, calling chicken breast meat "white meat," and so on.) Businessmen admit their goal is personal wealth and self aggrandizement. They openly express this emotion, which frees them to put it aside and get on with an objective analysis of the facts. The scientists never put aside their emotions. They deny they have any. People who deny their human nature and their animal instincts are ruled by those instincts. You are a primate, every bit as irrational, emotional and driven by instincts as a chimpanzee or a gorilla. Whether you like or not, your goal in life is to compete with other people and to defend your territory. If your territory happens to be physics, you will fight to prevent incursions. Gorillas beat the ground and throw grass; scientists write papers like Morrison's. The mechanics and the level of clear thinking are exactly the same in both cases. You can admit you are an animal and deal with it, or you can pretend it is not true. But you cannot escape your fate for even one moment. Actually, as I see it, gorillas are fine, noble, sweet animals, like Labrador retrievers. We should be pleased we share their nature and 95% of their DNA. (Or is it 98%?) The way to deal with this, it seems to me, is to redefine "your territory" on a higher level. Try to see yourself defending physics not from upstart cold fusion outsiders, but from the larger forces of impersonal nature that threaten to deprive us of energy, food, and the means of survival. Barry Merriman writes: (b) there is a huge difference by what I mean by scientific or scholarly debate, the colloquial meaning of debate. The former is an appeal the body of scientific work, and the latter is an appeal to the emotions. We know that. Engineers, businessmen and policymakers often conduct objective, scientific debates, but I have never yet seen any group of scientists debate cold fusion. All of the so-called "skeptical" reviews of cold fusion I know of have been crude appeals to emotion. Yes, I mean every one of them, including Close, Hoffman, Huizenga, Morrison, Taubes and all articles published by the Scientific American, Nature, Science, New Scientist etc. In eight years, there has been no debate. You must forgive me, but after all this time I doubt the scientists are capable of conducting one. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 07:35:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA16469; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:24:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:23:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970414102353_183534833 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: About the Hooper device ? Resent-Message-ID: <"oGHJ-3.0.E14.muZKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 4/14/97 1:48:34 AM, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: <> Replication attempted by NASA at the Lewis Research Center in Cleveland, Ohio. They reported the effect did not replicate. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 07:35:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA17472; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:32:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704141432.KAA17376 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <2.2.32.19970412062909.006e7600 world.std.com> (message from Mitchell Swartz on Sat, 12 Apr 1997 02:29:09 -0400) Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challenge Resent-Message-ID: <"-HGD6.0.tG4.-_ZKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) said: > As Tom says, "Furthermore, the rate of triutium evolution in > the sealed system may be the most sensitive and rapid indicator of > anomalous nuclear behavior in deuterided metals". This is why this work is worth pursuing. If the tritium out varies other than with the arc behavior, it will speed up tuning immensely. But... > Therefore, when noise is considered, it doesn't really sound > like a problem. The problem is getting the skeptics to understand > that this ash, and the helium-4, and maybe even hydrinos (since > He-4 does not account for 100% of the heat) and deuterium > production play a role. I have to side with the skeptics in part on this one. In an arc you can have a few particles acelerated much above the group rate. (This is usually due a developing pinch, and even DC arcs pinch all the time--stability is a continuous arc current, not a constant voltage.) You can then get stripping, which has a much higher cross-section in the 1-2 Mev energy range than fusion: 2d+ ---> d+ + n + p+ The thermal neutron then can be absorbed by a deuteron: d+ + n ---> t+ This was a problem in early magnetic confinement fusion experiments until understood. The tritium signature was there as was the prompt neutron signature, but it wasn't due to actual fusion. When you get rid of the instabilities this effect is suppressed. Look at some of the Project Sherwood papers for a good analysis, I seem to remember that the Stellerator at Princeton was good at producing this effect. The way to verify--in the hot fusion case--is with mass spectroscopy. If you have much more tritium than He3, it is due to stripping. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 08:12:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA28200; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:09:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:09:55 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:08:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704141508.KAA00626 dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: H.R. 400: Patent office re-organization vote To: rgeorge hooked.net Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"wma-r2.0.Yu6.2ZaKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 14, 1997 Couple of days ago, I happen to pick up on a short discussion on talk radio (Oliver North Show) about a vote to occur on Thursday (Tues?)on HR 400 (House Resolution 400) in Congress. Happened upon the 'Show' with slim pickins -- not completely my cup of ohcha (tea). HR400, as briefly explained, was proposed to "Corporatize" the U.S. Patent Office. Also, the bill proposes that a patent application, when applied for, is immediately open to the public. This is before the patent is issued. Representative Rohrbacher (they did not spell it out--- sounded like "Roar-Backer") was recommending that phone calls be made to oppose HR 400 since he felt the reorganization of an independant Patent Office would open the door to big money (foreign and domestic) essentially controlling the patent procedure. He recommended that his "Rohrbacher Alternative" be selected instead and to tell your respective House Representative to oppose HR 400. Unfortunately, I do not have furthur details on the subject. I tuned in late. However, this matter may be imortant enough for individual inventors and researchers to look into to protect and secure the value of their current and future discoveries and products. Oh, one other item. It is also proposed that patents, after being issued, be reviewed periodically (for patent protection?). It wouldn't hurt to look into this and be a mite politically active --- it's your wallet. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 09:45:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA02149; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:35:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:37:18 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challenge Resent-Message-ID: <"qEWfS2.0.PX.OpbKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Excuse me, but what is a "TB-skeptic"? Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 10:03:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA05251; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:56:57 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970414125357_1684203324 emout06.mail.aol.com> To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re : Re: The Faraday Homopolar Generator Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"pHuto.0.xH1.M7cKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 14/04/1997 07:15:24 , you wrote : << Hi Jean-Louis Looks like a Tolman Effect generator, except the central magnet causes the electrons to follow a spiral outward path to the rim. Suspect the spiral path causes a greater EMF to be generated that in a straight Tolman spinning disk. What tests have you done to investigate the relationship between output current and driving torque? -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >> Thanks for your input, Greg, I have some doubts now, could you give me some light ? - I would like do you think that the magnetic field is directly linked kinematicly to the originate source ? - If yes, is the magnetic energy turn with the magnetic field ?, In this case energy which turn on its axis create a votex, is it true or false ? - If we shall be able to create a magnetic vortex (energy) with magnetic field in axialy rotation, how we could displayed it or proved that it is really exist ? Thank for your help, I need more lights to find my way...... Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509@aol.com my Overunity WEB Server< /A> : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm WWPager, UIN: 747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 10:05:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA11993; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:01:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:01:15 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:03:20 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lit SAVE Resent-Message-ID: <"So9dK1.0.Jx2.QBcKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote, re Scott Little and Patterson cell flow calorimetry: > Do you understand the potential amplification effect of a > vertical flow calorimeter? I understand the Benard instability of which you speak and its potential to give an erroneous temperature reading. MUCH MORE serious in the Patterson cell is that nonuniform heat release in the cell can give erroneous temperatures, and this is a problem in horizontal as well as vertically oriented cells! I did lots of this kind of calorimetry myself last year. The solution to both problems is THOROUGH MIXING of the fluid before it passes the exit temperature probe. I always tested our calorimeter by ABSOLUTE measurements (current, voltage, inlet and outlet temperatures, liquid flow rate), and it was right on. During electrolysis we also measured offgas flow rate. We did not use any correction factors. Scott is doing all this well, too. My point is, stop criticising measurements that are well done. The technique might be different from yours, but it is still valid, within limits. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 10:31:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA17322; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:27:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:27:19 -0700 Message-ID: <335268BB.4441 worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:26:22 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; U; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Martin's comments about debate References: <970414142001_72240.1256_EHB86-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zbagE1.0.RE4.rZcKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Gorillas beat the ground and throw grass; scientists write papers > like Morrison's. Sometimes I just *love* the stuff you write! :) And also in favor of the gorillas: throwing grass is a lot more civilized than hurling feces, which is essentially what some scientists may have done (mailbox incident). - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 10:57:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA23726; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:51:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:51:15 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:53:20 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" cha Resent-Message-ID: <"Fd0Zm2.0.Uo5.IwcKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > >I don't blame the scientists. If I'd spent many years of studying >physics, the last thing I'd want is anything new coming along. Quite the contrary. Scientists, including physicists, LOVE new data that upsets old theories. Science is about discovery; preservation of existing knowledge is done just so that every person doesn't have to start over from scratch. But the fun is in discovery. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 10:57:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA22758; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:48:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:48:03 -0700 Message-ID: <33526D9E.7366 worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:47:16 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; U; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Faraday Homopolar Generator Experiment References: <970414125357_1684203324 emout06.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Rv-ac2.0.SZ5.ItcKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > Looks like a Tolman Effect generator, except the central magnet causes > the electrons to follow a spiral outward path to the rim. Suspect the > spiral path causes a greater EMF to be generated that in a straight > Tolman spinning disk. Looks like an ordinary case of a conductor cutting lines of flux to me. I must be missing something. Isn't that all a homopolar really is? The surprising part about a homopolar is that the magnet can be either rotating on its pole axis or not, and it still works as long as the disc rotates - demonstrating that either magnetic fields don't rotate with the magnet in a real sense, or that their rotating somehow doesn't count as flux cutting when they cross a conductor during their rotation. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 11:20:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA29146; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:12:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:12:58 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:15:05 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Claytor's reactions Resent-Message-ID: <"vfBf_3.0.G77.fEdKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 07:03 4/13/97 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>A direct bombardment of D gas with D ions at 2000 eV will also produce some >>T if I'm not mistaken. I'm curious as to how the reaction rate for this >>latter process stacks up against the reaction rate that Tom is getting. >>Any one know? > >Tom's reaction is conducted at about .8 atmospheres of D gas pressure. At >that pressure the mean free path is so tiny that it is virtually impossible >for a D ion could gain anything close to 2000 eV of energy before hitting >another D. Tom is running at about that voltage (2kV) but he assured me >that he had long ago dismissed the direct reaction as a possible explanation >for his observed T production rate. >>Still...I wonder if some really unexpected condition could arise in the >plasma that would create a large voltage drop across a small region of space >that was somehow actively swept of ions so there'd be "room" for the >necessary acceleration to occur. Do we have any plasma experts who could >comment on the possibility of this? Actually, over the past couple of years, Claytor's discharges have gotten milder. As presented in ICCF6 by Storms, the discharge is now technically a high pressure (tenths of atm.) normal glow discharge. Ion and electron motions are strongly impeded by collisions with the neutral gas. It is highly unlikely that in today's discharge there is any significant D+D reaction. Also, in this glow regime (NOT arc) there is no pinching. This MIGHT have been an issue in some of his earliest discharges. Today, there is not enough electrodynamic activity around to produce transients of ~1 MeV from ~1 keV supply. > > >If such were the case the reaction d + d => 3He + n would produce a >fantastic flux of neutrons, easily detectable by someone of Tom's expertise. Would also get soft x-rays of about 1 keV. The detection is difficult, but not impossible. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 11:30:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA17603; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: 14 Apr 97 14:18:13 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Mixing / TB-Skeptic def. Message-ID: <970414181813_72240.1256_EHB33-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Bh9LD1.0.yI4.lMdKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Michael J. Schaffer emphasizes the need for stirring in flow calorimetry: The solution to both problems [Bernard instability & non uniform heat release] is THOROUGH MIXING of the fluid before it passes the exit temperature probe. Mixing is certainly important, although I am not sure I understand how it fixes the problems with sporadic heat release. In any case most CETI cells produce remarkably steady heat, and Cravens is well aware of mixing problems. He uses these nifty in-line mixers from Omega. And, as I have noted many times, he and I mixed the fluid externally, in a cup. In the smaller calorimeters he does this by inserting a thermometer into the graduated cylinder. I always tested our calorimeter by ABSOLUTE measurements (current, voltage, inlet and outlet temperatures, liquid flow rate), and it was right on. Good idea! In other words, do not rely on the computer to tell you the Delta T is 1.2 deg C. Measure the inlet at 24.1 and the outlet at 25.3. I would go further: wherever possible, don't depend on only one instrument or one type of instrument. I like to measure temperature with thermocouples, thermistors and mercury thermometers simultaneously. (Only the TC is hooked up to the computer; you use the others to confirm the readings from time to time.) Cravens likes to measure DC current, voltage, and both together with an AC wattmeter placed between the power supplies and the wall. (Or just an AC ammeter.) The larger CETI cells produce hundreds of times more energy than the AC electric power going into the power supplies. Don't forget that the best way to eliminate all doubts about input power measurements is to unplug the power supplies and watch for heat after death (H.A.D.). CETI and Motorola observed it continuing for about a week in some cases. There is not enough potential chemical energy in the cells for it continue for more than a few seconds. H.A.D. is functionally equivalent to a self-sustaining device. During electrolysis we also measured offgas flow rate. Good idea, but expensive. We did not use any correction factors. Never touch 'em myself. Scott is doing all this well, too. So he is. I hope he tightens up on his electrochem to match the calorimetry. In another message Mike asks: "Excuse me, but what is a 'TB-skeptic'?" This is an inside joke, having nothing to do with tuberculosis. It means "a true-believer skeptic." The best description of that species can be found in the classic essay by D. Drasin, "Zen and the Art of Debunkery." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 11:54:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA05308; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:49:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:49:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:48:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704141848.OAA18807 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (Schaffer@gav.gat.com) Subject: Re: Claytor's reactions Resent-Message-ID: <"e7_-W.0.qI1.dmdKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Schaffer gav.gat.com said: >Tom's reaction is conducted at about .8 atmospheres of D gas >pressure. At that pressure the mean free path is so tiny that it >is virtually impossible for a D ion could gain anything close to >2000 eV of energy before hitting another D. Tom is running at >about that voltage (2kV) but he assured me that he had long ago >dismissed the direct reaction as a possible explanation for his >observed T production rate. From experience very wrong thinking. I've seen kilovolts per millimeter. >>Still...I wonder if some really unexpected condition could arise >in the plasma that would create a large voltage drop across a >small region of space that was somehow actively swept of ions so >there'd be "room" for the necessary acceleration to occur. Do we >have any plasma experts who could comment on the possibility of >this? No sweeping necessary. When you get a voltage spike from pinching, all the ions start moving. In a case like this, where all the ions have the same mass and charge, no collisions between charged particles occur--if you are in a highly ionized area. And of course, the few unionized atoms are targets. > Actually, over the past couple of years, Claytor's discharges have > gotten milder. As presented in ICCF6 by Storms, the discharge is > now technically a high pressure (tenths of atm.) normal glow > discharge. Ion and electron motions are strongly impeded by > collisions with the neutral gas. It is highly unlikely that in > today's discharge there is any significant D+D reaction. If it is true glow discharge, wall stabilized, fine. But if you have current filaments constantly created in it, you have plenty of pinching--it's the only reason those threads don't grow to carry all the charge. (And yes you can reach under certain conditions--too much capacitance and not enough inductance in the power supply--a situation where the filament does swallow all of the current flow, then dies due to voltage drop.) > Also, in this glow regime (NOT arc) there is no pinching. This > MIGHT have been an issue in some of his earliest discharges. The only way to be sure is to monitor the voltage drop directly across the discharge tube with a scope that works into the MHz range (and a 15kV scope probe--they are not standard equipment). But a quick check is to put an AM radio nearby tuned to a weak station, or no station at all. Even with a glow discharge you should get a frying sound, but switch regimes and cover your ears! (But it is a very useful tool when playing with that sort of voltage. You can keep your eyes on where your fingers are going.) > Today, there is not enough electrodynamic activity around to > produce transients of ~1 MeV from ~1 keV supply. ROTFL! I've seen Mev energy particles from two or three hundred volts. Read up on kink instabilities. What happens is that the instability travels down the current path pulling a bunch of charge carriers along. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 12:39:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA13641; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:35:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:35:23 -0700 Date: 14 Apr 97 15:32:49 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" cha Message-ID: <970414193249_100433.1541_BHG109-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"5keDW2.0.3L3.wReKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin, > But if there were 1000's of mainstream scientists all trying to > understand what's going on, having been convinced that CF is real, > imagine the progress that could be made! If if's and an's were pots and pans.... How would you convince them? > That's because they're the one's Mills (and CETI) has made his > pitch to. Why didn't he go to an American Physical Society meeting > set up his demo and say look at this astounding result? Dunno. Ask them. You gotta remember that CF is not a united brotherhood. But my guess would be that they would know that whatever positive calorimetric results they were able to show nobody at the APS would take the slightest bit of notice. Actually, Ceti did display a working cell at SOFE. Nothing much came of that, did it? One member of the infamous DoE committee from 1989 was repeatedly asked to cross the campus to take a look. He as repeatedly refused to do that. > Actually just the opposite is true. We would LOVE to find a new > remarkable aspect of nature. I'm sorry. I really would love to believe you, but I don't believe you. That's because of the reaction I get from effectively every single scientist who hears about the results. For a start, they *always* take the route of proving it's all nonsense - from theory!! > I sincerely hope those Gene is right and that pretty soon we'll > see astounding demos of devices for sale. As you know, this is exactly what we are working hard to make possible. But do realise that *it should not be necessary*. The papers and their replications should speak for themselves, as the normal process of science requires. Please explain why the normal rules have been abandoned in the case of CF. > And here's one counter example for Jed where Science led > technology totally, consider the history of the development of the > Laser. That started as a test of an arcane piece of Quantum > Mechanics. A counter-example indeed. They are not thick on the ground, are they? For any one found, we can find half-a-dozen opposing examples. By the way, Maiman's paper describing the first practical laser was of course rejected by Phys Rev in 1960. He had to go to press conference. An interesting point, no? Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 12:41:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA13688; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:35:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:35:30 -0700 Date: 14 Apr 97 15:32:45 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" cha Message-ID: <970414193245_100433.1541_BHG109-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"BXk8m3.0.jL3.1SeKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry, > Both Chris and Jed have interesting opinions about how scientists > doand should work. This is not the place to reeducate them.... I was educated in the science tradition - Cambridge University. To be honest, I believed for many years that scientists were more rational and independent-minded than the general run of humanity. Painful experience over recent years has demonstrated that I was just damned wrong. In the matter of CF, they are either playing follow-my-leader (the majority, who accept the kind of tripe written by such as Close and Huizenga as gospel, or the active opponents - who are talking the most appalling and illogical nonsense. Anyone who has the slightest doubt should look at the kind of crap spouted by professional physicists on the Compuserve Science Forum. If you were right, how come so few physicists know anything about the subject? And how come, if asked, almost all of them will spout the party line? > (a) scientists do not ask opinion leaders to tell them the > answers. What we do is ask experts to assess a body of work and > zero in on the good and bad parts of it, supporting their comments > with precise references to the exisitng bodies of knowledge. Then > we are all free to assess these various assertions against the > greater body of knowledge, to whatever extent we desire. If that were really true, how come their perception of CF is so flawed? > (b) there is a huge difference by what I mean by scientific or > scholarly debate, the colloquial meaning of debate. The former is > an appeal the body of sciencetific work, and the latter is an > appeal to the emotions. You mean, like Dick Blue? Further, will you take up my challenge to study and report here on the 1993 papers in PLA, the Morrison/F&P debate and the New Scientist report on the same matter? Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 12:45:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA29388; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: 14 Apr 97 15:32:51 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" cha Message-ID: <970414193250_100433.1541_BHG109-3 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"_Fkjy.0.1B7.YSeKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike, > Scientists, including physicists, LOVE new data that upsets old > theories. Can you provide evidence for this claim? And what about CF itself? Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 12:52:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA00522; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3352885E.634C interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:41:18 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Claytor's reactions References: <199704141848.OAA18807 spectre.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2PTf52.0.38.kXeKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert I. Eachus wrote: > And of course, the few > unionized atoms are targets. > Yes, especially by the shadowy nuclear labor organization, the AFL (American Federation of Leptons). (Don't beat me, Robert!) Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 13:10:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA18646; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:04:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:04:29 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:08:58 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Stripping produces energy? Resent-Message-ID: <"4rewb1.0.GZ4.CteKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:32 AM 4/14/97, Robert I. Eachus wrote: [snip] >In an arc >you can have a few particles acelerated much above the group rate. >(This is usually due a developing pinch, and even DC arcs pinch all >the time--stability is a continuous arc current, not a constant >voltage.) You can then get stripping, which has a much higher >cross-section in the 1-2 Mev energy range than fusion: > > 2d+ ---> d+ + n + p+ > > The thermal neutron then can be absorbed by a deuteron: > > d+ + n ---> t+ > > This was a problem in early magnetic confinement fusion >experiments until understood. The tritium signature was there as was >the prompt neutron signature, but it wasn't due to actual fusion. >When you get rid of the instabilities this effect is suppressed. Look >at some of the Project Sherwood papers for a good analysis, I seem to >remember that the Stellerator at Princeton was good at producing this >effect. > [snip] > Robert I. Eachus In cases where the second reaction above follows the first reaction, that event appears to be synonymous with: 2d+ ---> t+ + p+ + 3.8 MeV Computing mass loss: 2d+ -2*(2.0140) = 4.0280 t+ -3.0161 p+ -1.0078 ======= Net mass loss 0.0041 There are other means of using the neutrons for energy production as well. Why is stripping not a possible source of energy production? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 13:15:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA04160; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:09:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:10:58 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" cha Resent-Message-ID: <"IIaaM3.0.p01.gxeKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Mike, > > > Scientists, including physicists, LOVE new data that upsets old > > theories. > >Can you provide evidence for this claim? And what about CF itself? I am a scientist. I work with scientists. I told you what I see. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 13:17:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA20703; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:14:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:14:57 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:17:01 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Claytor's reactions Resent-Message-ID: <"ULkSx1.0.L35.01fKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Eachus wrot several things... The important point is that in Claytor's present discharges, the ion and electron motions are strongly dominated by collisions. Even at 2 kV they are weakly ionized discharges. Claytor limits the pulse current AND pulse duration to keep them that way (conciously or unconciously, I don't know how much plasma physics he knows). I know about pinches, etc, etc. Under highly collisional conditions like Claytor's, it is hard to come up with a mechanism that could produce even a few high energy particles. The mechanisms Eachus argued require lower collisionalities. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 13:19:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA04666; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:15:55 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" Resent-Message-ID: <"EWzGT3.0.q81.z_eKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: snip >A counter-example indeed. They are not thick on the ground, are they? For any >one found, we can find half-a-dozen opposing examples. By the >way, Maiman's paper describing the first practical laser was of course >rejected by Phys Rev in 1960. He had to go to press conference. An >interesting point, no? > >Chris And if rejection is any measure of success, then we should ultimately be successful in our endeavors beyond our wildest expectations! I believe Isaac Newton's PRINCIPIA MATHEMATICA was rejected as being unfit for publication by the Royal Society who instead chose to publish a treatise on FISH. Halley had to end up financing Newton's book out of his own pocket. With rejection in mind, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "In speaking of the Energy of the field, however, I wish to be understood literally. All energy is the same as mechanical energy, whether it exists in the form of motion or in that of elasticity, or in any other form. The energy in electromagnetic phenomena is _mechanical_ energy." --- JAMES CLERK MAXWELL From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 14:21:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA30966; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:11:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:11:26 -0700 Message-ID: <33529D97.77E1 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:11:51 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Claytor's reactions-Z-pinch References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Eh1CJ3.0.kZ7.xrfKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > (snip) > I know about pinches, etc, etc. Hey Michael, and Robert E. too. What do you think of the so-called DZP (dense z-pinch) work going on around the globe. Do you think this type (very fast pulse) of pinch holds any promise of net energy out? I was thinking of the "MAGPIE" type of rig at Imperial College in London. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 14:55:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA21018; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: 14 Apr 97 17:40:32 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" Message-ID: <970414214031_72240.1256_EHB114-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"3zz_t.0.J85.XJgKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Michael J. Schaffer asserted that scientists LOVE new data that upsets old theories. Everyone knows they are supposed to, and that is how they are portrayed in the movies. Businessman supposedly LOVE money and new opportunities to make it, too, but most of them run like scared rabbits when new opportunities arise. Most hate to see progress disrupt the marketplace. They prefer to make money doing the same old thing, year after year. Chris asked Mike: "Can you provide evidence for this claim? And what about CF itself?" Mike, ignoring the second question, responds: I am a scientist. I work with scientists. I told you what I see. Ah, but do you also work with other people? Who are you comparing the scientists to? Have you also worked with businessmen, engineers, technicians, short-order cooks, sailors and farmers? I have, and in my experience, they are generally more open minded and more receptive to new ideas and change. Scientists are a conservative lot. Not all, of course. Some are hypocrites. They pay lip service to openness, but their actions betray them. Scientists are also supposed to express themselves in precise, narrowly defined, explicit prose. That's another myth. I have been writing and editing technical prose for twenty-five years. The most atrocious writing I have ever seen is in scientific technical journals. I just read a splendid essay about this topic, by J. Diamond, Discover magazine, May 1997, p. 44. (This issue has an interview with A. C. Clarke on page 68.) Diamond quotes a recent editorial in Nature magazine: "[Scientists] should at least respond positively when Nature's editors prod them to remove the *n*th unexplained acronym in the first paragraph." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 15:23:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA10184; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:19:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:19:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:18:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704142218.SAA28623 spectre.mitre.org> To: fstenger interlaced.net CC: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <33529D97.77E1 interlaced.net> (fstenger@interlaced.net) Subject: Re: Claytor's reactions-Z-pinch Resent-Message-ID: <"omU932.0.2V2.WrgKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis J. Stenger (fstenger interlaced.net) said: > Hey Michael, and Robert E. too. What do you think of the so-called > DZP (dense z-pinch) work going on around the globe. Do you think > this type (very fast pulse) of pinch holds any promise of net energy > out? I was thinking of the "MAGPIE" type of rig at Imperial College > in London. Uh, three answers. First, this type of pinch is very sensitive to initial conditions, so the main problem is not achiving over unity performance, but doing it more than one shot in a thousand. Second, even if you can get reproducibility, you need to get the costs (per shot) way down, and I can't imagine maintaining the "clean" magnetic environment you need for reproducibility very long in a power producing environment. (Most kinks start due to inhomogeneous magnetic fields, it would be nice to work with all magnetically inert materials, but you need magnetic shielding...) Last but not least, why bother? Actually I'll tell you why. The types with the money want to see "results" before they will fund a machine that is capable of doing any this worthwhile. There are several non-tokamak approaches to magnetic confinement fusion that could be scaled up with what we know now. For example, use a mirror machine long enough that the end losses are just how you extract energy. But many years ago I concluded that the SMALLEST economical DT fusion plant would produce over 10,000 MWt. I see no problem with doing that with hot fusion today, but the economics haven't improved. But for such a plant to be economically useable you would have to have several plants for load sharing when one goes off line, etc. Do you realize how much of an upgrade the national grid would require to handle a, say 4000 MWe plant dropping off line? The problems they have now with the larger nukes in the 1000 to 1400 MWe range are one of the reasons that nuclear power is no longer so popular. (For example, in Rowe, Massachusetts they built a huge pumped water power station. Use nuclear power to pump water up the hill when you have excess capacity, and draw down with the response time of hydroelectric during peak usage. But expensive!) It would be interesting to repeat the analysis. How many locations are there which could support such plants? Northern NJ on the Hudson, Long Island, Lake Michigan, possibly offshore near LA, SF Bay. It would be nice if there was a location near Dade County where you could dump all the cooling water, and the Chesapeake Bay is probably maxed out on cooling now too. There are other possible locations where the economic issue is that they are already sending as much power down the wires as possible, such as the Pacific Northwest. When you add the cost of 1000 or more miles of transmission lines, it doesn't matter how cheap the power is. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 15:34:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA00124; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:23:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704142223.SAA28639 spectre.mitre.org> To: fstenger interlaced.net CC: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <3352885E.634C interlaced.net> (fstenger@interlaced.net) Subject: Re: Claytor's reactions Resent-Message-ID: <"Jf2GD1.0.p1.owgKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I said: > And of course, the few unionized atoms are targets. Francis J. Stenger (fstenger interlaced.net) said: > Yes, especially by the shadowy nuclear labor organization, the AFL > (American Federation of Leptons). No, Frank you are confused. It is the ununionized particles that are AFL targets, the unionized nucleii are already members ;-) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 15:53:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA02839; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:40:52 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704142240.SAA28668 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (hheffner@corecom.net) Subject: Re: Stripping produces energy? Resent-Message-ID: <"e2sLn1.0.Hi.EAhKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner (hheffner corecom.net) asked: > In cases where the second reaction above follows the first reaction, that > event appears to be synonymous with: > 2d+ ---> t+ + p+ + 3.8 MeV > Computing mass loss: > 2d+ -2*(2.0140) = 4.0280 > t+ -3.0161 > p+ -1.0078 > ======= > Net mass loss 0.0041 > There are other means of using the neutrons for energy production > as well. Why is stripping not a possible source of energy > production? Very good question. Works fine, but I don't know that anyone has yet used it for power generation. The usual is to produce high-energy neutrons from a target, then use n + Be9 --> 2 He + 2n to rapidly multiply the neutrons but slow them to nearer thermal speeds. The devices which do this are not normally considered a fusion devices, but atomic bomb triggers. In a power production scenario there would be better targets for neutron absorption. I'm not sure about the economics, but I think it has been considered as a way to "burn up" certain nuclear wastes with high neutron cross-sections. Again usually as a "sub-critical" reactor, since the wastes of most interest are transuranics and actinides, but I think a similar process is also being proposed as a tritium source for the US stockpile. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 16:00:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA18150; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:57:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:57:40 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:57:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704142257.SAA28700 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (Schaffer@gav.gat.com) Subject: Re: Claytor's reactions Resent-Message-ID: <"kY-bN2.0.WR4.ZPhKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael J. Schaffer gav.gat.com said: > I know about pinches, etc, etc. Under highly collisional > conditions like Claytor's, it is hard to come up with a mechanism > that could produce even a few high energy particles. The > mechanisms Eachus argued require lower collisionalities. Just call it once burned, twice shy. (Five times burned, ten times?) It sounds like Claytor's is probably safe from this problem. But don't miss the gotcha you are arguing against. As a pinch froms it compresses the plasma into a thin thread, while leaving almost all neutral particles behind. The particles in this thread are accelerated as a group. If everything is straight, the electrons go one direction, the ions the other, and they collide happily. But we are discussing kink instabilities. Since the mass/charge ratios for the ions and electrons are very different, you get two related braided flows with all particles in each thread moving as a group. (And I have seen separations in the millimeter range.) When the beam either separates from the kink or the current pinches off, the acclerated particles go merrily on their way producing nuclear products and X-rays. This is the worst of Murphy processes. Very robust at forming where you swear it can't, and very good at deluding you into believing that things are working right. (Well, actually, I know of one project that used it to produce X-rays for in situ fluorescence measurements. But usually it is only a pain in the butt.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 16:11:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA20983; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:09:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:09:03 -0700 Date: 14 Apr 97 19:04:59 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" Message-ID: <970414230458_100433.1541_BHG58-4 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"N7L5T1.0.V75.CahKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, > Have you also worked with businessmen, engineers, technicians, > short-order cooks, sailors and farmers? I have, and in my > experience, they are generally more open minded and more receptive > to new ideas and change. Some of the most formative experiences I've had have been the periods I've spent working on the factory floor with the poor sods who were making an amazingly good job of working with the inadequate h/ware and s/ware systems I'd designed and implemented for them. I learned a touch of humility, and respect for 'ordinary' people - many of whom had far more sense and native intelligence than most of the 'ivory tower' specialist designers with whom I spent most of my time. Curiously enough my usual colleagues regarded my excursions into reality as a mark of some kind of perversity. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 16:11:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA20902; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:08:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:08:54 -0700 Date: 14 Apr 97 19:04:54 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" Message-ID: <970414230454_100433.1541_BHG58-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"WveSR3.0.R65.5ahKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Evan, > And if rejection is any measure of success, then we should > ultimately besuccessful in our endeavors beyond our wildest > expectations! No. It is stupidity which is the most vital and powerful force in human affairs. See Barbara Tuchman's excellent "The March Of Folly." Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 16:25:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA07710; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: 14 Apr 97 19:04:52 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" cha Message-ID: <970414230452_100433.1541_BHG58-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"xYizE.0.Ou1.ZahKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike, > I am a scientist. I work with scientists. I told you what I see. That isn't evidence. I have debated all this endlessly with physicists, and have had endless illogical nonsense thrown at me - along with almost ritual accusations of dishonesty and such-like. I can dig out literally hundreds of examples. And you didn't answer the question. What about CF? By all the rules of science, the debate is settled. In fact, 'scientists' do regard it as settled - but they have it backwards. If you are right and I am wrong, how do you explain this? Chris (Well, I've been working hard. Can't I tweak a few tails for relaxation?) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 17:06:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA13984; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:53:12 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" Resent-Message-ID: <"3nCcF2.0.OQ3.fBiKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Evan, > > > And if rejection is any measure of success, then we should > > ultimately besuccessful in our endeavors beyond our wildest > > expectations! > >No. It is stupidity which is the most vital and powerful force in human >affairs. See Barbara Tuchman's excellent "The March Of Folly." > >Chris Well, since I would define IGNORANCE as simply "an absence of knowledge" and STUPIDITY as an "unwillingness to learn" than I would agree that stupidity is indeed a powerful sub-volitional attribute.....unfortunately for humanity. Evan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 17:47:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA07574; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:39:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:39:36 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:42:01 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: IN MEMORIAM: Dr. Andrew J. Galambos Resent-Message-ID: <"a7qYs1.0.Gs1.7viKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dr. Andrew J. Galambos died on Thursday, April 10, 1997. I wish to pay gratitude to one of the major innovators of the 20th century. As a classically-educated astrophysicist, Dr. Galambos applied his understanding of the methodology and epistemology of physics to the societal domain. When I was first introduced to his work over 25 years ago, one of the first statements I remember hearing him make was (to paraphrase): "While our physical science technology has indeed progressed in many areas, we are still utilizing exactly the same social science technology as our prehistoric ancestors: only instead of hurling sticks and stones at one another, we now have the capability to hurl nuclear missiles at one another. The solution lies not in the direction of lowering our physical science technology to the level of our volitional science technology, but rather in raising the quality of the latter to be commensurate with that of our physical science technology." The question is how to do this. The question is how to "adjust" the methodology and epistemology of physical science in an operational manner which successfully accommodates the subjective aspects of "volition." >From the founding of his Institute in 1961, Dr. Galambos devoted his life to innovating both a conceptual theory and operational technology to accomplish this end. Some of his volitional technologies have filtered into the mainstream of society over the past 35 years. It is anticipated that this will accelerate with time. As Dr. Galambos once said with respect to our understanding of the universe, "We are at the beginning of the beginning of the beginning...." With love and gratitude for his person, and respect for his cosmological innovations: Sic Itur Ad Astra. Evan Soule', Jr. April 14, 1997 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 17:52:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA20617; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:43:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: fstenger interlaced.net From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Wet Thyratron Experiment Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:41:54 +0000 Message-ID: <19970415004152.AAA23469 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"XXoVi.0._15.JyiKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex & Frank Stenger: I like the words that Robert Eachus had on pinches in plasmas. If you went to a water-potassium carbonate or hydroxide setup with the whole thing in a small tank with a ceramic "gate" ran with an actuator, it might get interesting with the conductive water establishing the charge flow. This way you could charge up the capacitor bank and as the gate rapidly allowed the two pools of conductive water to make contact through the water "aperature" there should be a fast pinch formed through the gate aperature. The "shutter" could be a ceramic rod or plate with a hole in it that rapidly moves into position to dump the capacitor bank when the water in it completes the circuit between the two bodies of water. Actually the whole thing could be under water in the tank if there was an insulating "plate" separating the upper and lower bodies of conductive water and an insulating lining in the tank. The setup could be pressurized with air if a ceramic equalizing tube was ran from the void space of the top chamber through the separtor plate, providing it is long enough to withstand the capacitor voltage, without breakdown. In this way a large surface area could be provided in the two reservoirs to handle the current from the capacitor bank and to keep things as simple as possible. Frank S. Do you think you could do this with your capacitor bank without leveling Ashtabula? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 19:10:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA01358; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970415020523.0066cbac sparc1> X-Sender: kennel sparc1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:05:23 +0900 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Elliot Kennel Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challenge Resent-Message-ID: <"eBIvf1.0.8L.s9kKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: >>In fact it IS the corporations which are showing interest...<< etc. PMFJI, but do you mean that ALL (or a vast majority of)corporations accept cold fusion and (virtually) NO scientist accepts it? The fact that we have international conferences in cold fusion every year indicates that many scientists worldwide are working on some aspect relating to cold fusion. But of course, scientists do not invest in CETI and other projects because they don't have money. That's where business comes in. To me it seems clear enough that cold fusion is supported by a minority of scientists and a minority of corporations. When major universities, research institutions, national laboratories are actively studying the Patterson cell, then it is clear that there is scientific interest in it. Moreover, I am sure that a great many others would like to do experiments if they could earn a living while doing so. So I think that there is no shortage of able-bodied volunteers to work on this stuff if the opportunity were available. On the other hand, corporations are not exactly beating down the doors for a piece of the action either. I've heard a few rumors that Motorola wanted to buy into CETI, but I'm not aware of any huge investments to date. But I don't see the point of dressing the corporations in white hats and the scientists in black hats. Both are needed and very welcome. >>..that's because of the reaction I get from effectively every single scientist who hears about the results<< ,etc. Gee, I don't get that reaction. I doubt whether "effectively every single scientist" really has such a dim view of cold fusion. Perhaps it's the way you approach them. Personally, I find that when I discuss my work in front of scientist/outsiders, they are usually receptive (though not necessarily ready to immediately mount a horse and go charging off on our behalf). Better data and higher reproducibility, of course, would help our cause immensely. But that is unlikely to happen without a lot of work. Best regards, Elliot Kennel Sapporo Japan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 19:46:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA25217; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:38:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:38:10 -0700 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: Potential Factors which Might Increase the Purported Power Gain Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:37:33 +0000 Message-ID: <19970415023719.AAD3446 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"dfFnm2.0.t96.HekKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>Mitchell Swartz wrote: >To put this in perspective; a soldering iron is 25 watts, and >a soldering gun is 45 watts. Jed claims more than a kilowatt, but ALL >the plastic and components, IMHO, looks suprisingly .... , well, clean. > > Best wishes. > Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) > This qualitative observation intends to shed doubt on Jed's claim of high power output in a CETI type device, correct? I have seen no speculations about a qualitative observation touted after the more remarkable CETI demos. That the air blowing through the heat exchanger used to reduce the temperature of the recirculating electrolyte was reported to feel like air coming off a hair-dryer. In order for the temperatures at the thermocouples to be reasonably stable, the heat exchanger would have to be exhausting the evolved heat. If such gross heat output as a kilowatt was indeed occuring the obvious macroscopically observable would be volumes of really hot air, like out of my 1400W ceramic "cube" heater (that consumes 1400W). For determining whether massive OU occured or not, we need not delve into Bernard stability, Faradaic efficiency, and the plethora of Nth order chemical effects. This observation is second-hand. Now, I understand from Russ George the huge OU ratios are no longer being claimed. IMHO, there is the need for either explanation and/or replications. Water is an excellent heat-sink, because of high heat specificity. When flowing, it removes and redistributes heat, so damaging concentrations would not result. The lack of damage to heat sensitive parts indicates nothing to me, as long as the flow rate was adequate. The damage occuring in your ~100W output cell may or may not provide meaningful perspective. The cathodes' heat output and temperature are related but separate variables. Do you have data on how hot the respective cathodes got? Might this be an example of emotional attack wrapped in scientific jargon to which Jed makes reference? I don't know. This is not an accusation. I am speculatulatively spectating. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 19:59:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA26700; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:51:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:51:42 -0700 Date: 14 Apr 97 22:15:00 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" Message-ID: <970415021459_76016.2701_JHC130-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"9DuXZ3.0.5X6.zqkKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris said, >>Curiously enough my usual colleagues regarded my excursions into reality [speaking to the ordinary bloke] as a mark of some kind of perversity.<< My situation is worse. I get criticized. When designing a new system for my clients, I seek out the people [technicians] who will maintain the system and the users of the system. I find their input most valuable. When an aspect of my design is explained to be a result of such guidance, I am often derided by the client. However, I am now the senior communications designer for the dominant transportation engineering firm [in the US] and respected among my peers (or feared, which has the same result). One other comment. As I was growing up, I dreamed of becoming a scientist and forging the path of truth. Through laziness or greed, I opted to become an engineer. For many years I regretted my choice. Today, I rejoice in my choice. Although I no longer visit the CompuServe Science forum (except the CF section, which was created to ostracize us from the Physics section), I saw enough of the "scientists" there to dissolve my regrets. The majority of scientists seek funding, not truth. And protection of a well-earned reputation is far more important than any reality. I do not necessarily blame the people, but the system. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 20:19:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA09270; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3352F1EA.4CCB interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:11:38 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Claytor's reactions - AFL References: <199704142223.SAA28639 spectre.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ns9oI3.0.lG2.g7lKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > I said: > > And of course, the few unionized atoms are targets. > > Francis J. Stenger (fstenger interlaced.net) said: > > > Yes, especially by the shadowy nuclear labor organization, the AFL > > (American Federation of Leptons). > > No, Frank you are confused. It is the ununionized particles that > are AFL targets, the unionized nucleii are already members ;-) > But Frank informed: True, the UAW (Unionized Atoms Worldwide) is well organized but my sources reveal a sinister plan by the ruthless AFL to capture the UAW governing structure to gain access to the SNF (Strong Nuclear Force). My source (rogue Leptons) have been traveling in secrete via the underground transmission line since they escaped from copper crystal city. Agent Frank Stenger (Friend to all free Leptons!) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 20:20:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA09385; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3352F203.5581 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:12:03 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment References: <19970415004152.AAA23469 LOCALNAME> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"v2SBf.0.QI2.C8lKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > To Vortex & Frank Stenger: > > I like the words that Robert Eachus had on pinches in plasmas. > > If you went to a water-potassium carbonate or hydroxide setup with > the whole thing in a small tank with a ceramic "gate" ran with > an actuator, it might get interesting with the conductive water > establishing the charge flow. > > This way you could charge up the capacitor bank and as the gate > rapidly allowed the two pools of conductive water to make contact > through the water "aperature" there should be a fast pinch formed > through the gate aperature. > Frederick, it might be easier to just use my switch to drop the caps across any "water aperature". Whatever, you're a number-cruncher at heart - calculate what current levels we could reach prior to exploding the electrolyte thermodynamically. Remember, my bank is so slow that it does'nt act like Robert E. says it should for a good pinch. You need to consider the conductivity of the electrolyte, its specific heat, its boiling point, etc. The current rise rate for my rig in its present configuration is about 0.666 kiloamp/microsecond (roughly a ramp up to 200 kamp in 300 microseconds. I really think of this bank as a "battery" with a quick discharge rate. I was really hoping to test ideas similar to the submarine battery ball-lightning experiments you may have heard about. Instead of a water element, I did vaporize an aluminum coke can for a local high school science club! I really think we would just blow up the water element before we reached pinch conditions. Care to run the calcs to check this out? Still sweating over an open varnish can ------ Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 20:20:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA08866; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3352F127.2CA9 math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:08:23 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Martin's comments about debate References: <970414142001_72240.1256_EHB86-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Fd1l91.0.SA2.95lKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Conventional physicists know that > their prestige will be greatly reduced if cold fusion is real > and it becomes generally accepted. The ones who have led the > charge against cold fusion all these years know they will be > mocked and ridiculed for the rest of their lives. Many will find > their hard-earned knowledge obsolete, and their jobs > eliminated. Sorry Jed, but you have it completely wrong. The people who are going to be forgotten if CF is accepted by mainstream science are the current crop of CF researchers. With all due respect, they are for the most part not the major league scientists. They are in the minors, and they will be quickly displaced. The person who makes a discovery or pioneers a field is by no means necessarily the best qualified to develop the field. Look to the computer industry for many examples. > Plasma physics will become an unfunded backwater if cold fusion > succeeds. > This is the most incorrect statement of all. First, Jed, are you aware that there is a multibillion dollar, rapidly expanding plasma processing *industry*? It has been sucking up surplus plasma physicists from the fusion community for the past couple years now. The cash flow in the plasma processing industry greatly exceeds that in the hot fusion community already. It is a proven and succesful technology, and if fusion vanished tomorrow there would still be hundreds of millions of dollars going into plasma research, though more of it in corporate labs and less in govm't labs. Second Jed seems to not realize that there is a field of science called plasma physics that has nothing to do with magnetic confinement fusion. Have you forgotten that 99+ % of the universe is in a plasma state? That fact alone ensures that plasma physics will remian a significant, well funded (as sciences go) discipline in the absence of any hot fusion program. Jed, most of the money in the hot fusion program does not go to plasma physicists. It goes to mechanical and electrical engineers and engineering companies, that build and maintain the big machines. If the money dries up, they work on different engineering problems. The plasma physicists go work in the plasma processing industry, or go back to space sciences, where they came from. It is a largely a myth that there are plasma physicists born and bred and supported by the DOE fusion program. Plasma physicists simply want to work on fusion because it is an important and challening problem. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 20:29:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA30272; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:19:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:19:07 -0700 Message-ID: <3352F3C9.2C1D interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:19:37 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Claytor's reactions-Z-pinch References: <199704142218.SAA28623 spectre.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nK36n3.0.wO7.gElKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > Francis J. Stenger (fstenger interlaced.net) said: > > > Hey Michael, and Robert E. too. What do you think of the so-called > > DZP (dense z-pinch) work going on around the globe. Do you think > > this type (very fast pulse) of pinch holds any promise of net energy > > out? I was thinking of the "MAGPIE" type of rig at Imperial College > > in London. > > Uh, three answers...................>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for all three, Robert! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 21:06:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA03018; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:04:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:04:47 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:04:31 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" cha (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mCZIe1.0.zk.UvlKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 14 Apr 1997, Chris Tinsley wrote: > Mike, > > > Scientists, including physicists, LOVE new data that upsets old > > theories. > > Can you provide evidence for this claim? And what about CF itself? > The classic example is the discovery of the High Temperature Superconductors. The APS meeting was jammed to overflowing. It was called the "Woodstack of Physics". The excitement of the audience of seeing the remarkable new devices was readily manifest. After that a very large fraction of the world's condesed Matter Physicists took up research in HTSC's. If you guys can get out some good demo devices, you may well see a similar reaction. Of course there will a be few totally humiliated Physicists out there as a result. I also witnessed and felt a similar phenomena right after the P&F press conference. Many, many Physicsits suspended disbelief on the grounds of Coulomb barrier and the "dead graduate student" problems and went out and tried it in the mistaken belief that this was an easy effect to reproduce. The personal failure of almost every attempt combined with the negative results of Caltech, MIT and Harwell turned off the vast majority of Physicists, including me. I became interested again after watching the excellent Canadian documentary on Cold Fusion and in particular the video of Stan Pons's boiling cell. After seeing that I found it impossible to dimiss the field despite what I know about Physics which says it's impossible. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 21:09:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA16436; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: 15 Apr 97 00:03:32 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Potential Factors which Might . . . Message-ID: <970415040332_72240.1256_EHB38-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"knn7K.0.j04.TwlKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Ed Wall quotes Mitchell Swartz: To put this in perspective; a soldering iron is 25 watts, and a soldering gun is 45 watts. Jed claims more than a kilowatt, but ALL the plastic and components, IMHO, looks suprisingly .... , well, clean. I believe the implication here is that a kilowatt device must scorch or get exceedingly hot. If so, this is more nonsense. I have a kilowatt plastic coffee maker that never smokes, scorches or overheats. It is clean, NOT surprisingly. The flow of cooling water through the heating elements is enough to make the water 80 deg C. I have a 1500 watt plastic room heater heater with a plastic fan directly in front of the heater. The flow of cooling air is enough to prevent any component from burning. The temperature of an object is in no way connected with the power level. A 1-watt plastic object can scorch and burn, a 10,000 watt plastic object can be barely warm. Ed comments: This qualitative observation intends to shed doubt on Jed's claim of high power output in a CETI type device, correct? No, this observation intends to confuse the issue with nonsense. I have seen no speculations about a qualitative observation touted after the more remarkable CETI demos. That the air blowing through the heat exchanger used to reduce the temperature of the recirculating electrolyte was reported to feel like air coming off a hair-dryer. In order for the temperatures at the thermocouples to be reasonably stable, the heat exchanger would have to be exhausting the evolved heat. There was a great deal of speculation about this. That heat exchanger was not the only path by which the heat was escaping; the whole machine radiated heat. Nobody measured the temperature of the air but I do not think it was much different from my 1500 watt room heater. If such gross heat output as a kilowatt was indeed occurring the obvious macroscopically observable would be volumes of really hot air, like out of my 1400W ceramic "cube" heater (that consumes 1400W). My heater is about twice as big as one of those ceramic "cube" things (which I have seen in the hardware store). Since it is bigger, the air is not so warm. This observation is second-hand. Now, I understand from Russ George the huge OU ratios are no longer being claimed. This is pure bullshit. CETI still does claim huge o-u ratios, up to and including infinity, meaning heat after death. CETI has not retracted the 1200 watt claim, and neither have I. I see no reason to doubt my observations. CETI is now running other large cells, with better stability and continued high o-u ratios. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 21:55:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA22548; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970415004720.009c9480 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:47:49 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Quinney Subject: Re: About the Hooper device ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"K5M59.0.7W5.ccmKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:23 AM 4/14/97 -0400, Hal wrote: > >In a message dated 4/14/97 1:48:34 AM, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > ><Hooper>> > >Replication attempted by NASA at the Lewis Research Center in Cleveland, >Ohio. They reported the effect did not replicate. > >Hal Puthoff > Hal: I believe that there was some *question* as to whether or not that NASA research was a true replication. There was an independent experiment using superconductive wire by 'Edwards' in the 1970's however, that as I understood it, tended to *prove* Hooper's results. Hooper has been assailed for being sloppy with his filters, shields, and his power supply setup, yet if you read the paper by his assistant, Gibson, it was apparent that they both strongly felt that he had proven his point. Whether he had or not is not the issue now.. It was 30 years ago...and considering the *extreme* importance of the implications, I personally am surprised that no others have published identical or improved versions of the original experiment in all this time. In other words, IMHO, just quoting one possibly *flawed* experiment at NASA for disproof, is not quite good enough... I am still waiting to see if anyone has the gumption to try the experiment again. (The jury is still out). Respectfully, Colin Quinney. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 22:32:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA13750; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:30:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:30:18 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:29:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970415012942_-334707447 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: About the Hooper device ? Resent-Message-ID: <"paJq8.0.mM3.f9nKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 4/14/97 11:17:49 PM, Colin Quinney wrote: <> I agree that further attempts at replication should be done, as one failed replication attempt is not enough to prove anything, and the effect is sufficiently important to chase down as much as possible. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 23:09:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA27839; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33531C3B.655E loc1.tandem.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:12:11 -0800 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Listen to Gene's interview on the web Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6UB5Y3.0.ro6.HhnKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In case you missed Gene Mallove's cold fusion interview last Friday, I just found a great web site that has archives of all NPR Science Friday shows in "RealAudio" format. If you do not have the RealAudio helper application for your web browser, it will let you download a personal copy for free. The web site is: http://www.real.com/contentp/npr/nf7a11.html They just added the audio of the April 11 program. I listened to the whole interview with surprisingly good quality audio. Great job Gene! -- Bob Horst From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 23:23:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA29157; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33531E51.3D15 skylink.net> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:21:05 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: About the Hooper device ? References: <970414102353_183534833 emout17.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pHm6l1.0.T77.wvnKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Puthoff aol.com wrote: > <> > Replication attempted by NASA at the Lewis Research Center in Cleveland, > Ohio. They reported the effect did not replicate. Hooper measured the effect in tens of micro-volts using a copper coil. The effect varies with number of turns in the coil and the square of total current. The NASA "replication" was done with less than ten times the amount of ampere turns used by Hooper -- one hundredth of the effect. It should be no surprise that nothing was found. I'm not sure the NASA experiments really wanted to find anything. Hooper's experiment was repeated in most careful fashion by W.F. Edwards using a superconductor hairpin coil -- with much a much larger amount of current. Edwards got measurements as high as 100 millivolts -- one-tenth volt. He also demonstrated without doubt that the effect varies as the square of the current. Edwards could provide no conventional explanation for the effect, but he did not attempt to relate it to gravitation as Hooper did. The effect is real, is found experimentally, and is predicted theoretically by any of the variety of alternative equations for the electric field which results from an electric charge moving at constant velocity -- Lienard Weichert potentials, etc. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 03:55:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA11720; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:53:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:53:53 -0700 Message-ID: <33535E0C.38CD microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:23:00 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JNaudin509 aol.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, josephnewman@earthlink.net, fepps halcyon.com Subject: Re: Re : Rotating magnetic fields References: <970415061140_-500360584 emout02.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mF_5o.0.ws2._urKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > > Hi Greg, Fred, Evan and All, > > Thanks you very much at all for your help and your answer at my question : > " > - Do you think that the magnetic field is directly linked kinematicly to the > originate source ? Hi Jean-Louis, I don't see how a magnetic field can transmit torque. Energy transmission via a magnetic field is noramlly caused by field flux distortions. As a rotation field has no field distortions, now could energy be transmitted? I believe your Homopolar demo generates electricity because the mag field generated by the rotation magnet is not constant. A slight uncentering of the magnet or bolt would cause the field surrounding the spinning magnet to vary in density as it spins and induce an EMF in the meter probes. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 04:02:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA12023; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:58:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:58:40 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:59:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Vapour pressure curves Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"DIQv12.0.nx2.VzrKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortex, (once again) Anyone know where I can get v.p. curves for water hygroscopic substance solutions. I want v.p. versus composition and for several temps. Graphs are best. Hygro substances are:ethanol, glycerol, ethylene gycol, di-ethylene gycol (DEL), tri-ethylene gycol (TEL). Finding old dusty tomes incomplete with only a few ranges. A good web site does anyone know? - there are stacks? (what's the bloody point, I'm an army of one) Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 04:27:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA12221; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:23:58 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704151123.GAA22411 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Vapour pressure curves Resent-Message-ID: <"YNue-.0.p-2.hLsKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:59 AM 4/15/97 +0000, Remi wrote: >Anyone know where I can get v.p. curves for water hygroscopic substance >solutions. I want v.p. versus composition and for several temps. Remi, my only suggestion is to ask Dieter Britz, Dieter Britz He will at least have a suggestion...but it may be simply that you return to the dusty tomes...:-) Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 04:30:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA17502; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:30:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:30:04 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:29:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704151129.GAA22649 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" cha (fwd) Resent-Message-ID: <"w5ejl.0.OH4.xQsKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:04 PM 4/15/97 +1000, Martin wrote: >The classic example is the discovery of the High Temperature Superconductors. >The APS meeting was jammed to overflowing. It was called the "Woodstack >of Physics". Isn't another classic example the initial response of the scientific community to the 1989 P&F announcement? Didn't hundreds, maybe thousands, of physicists & chemists all over the world drop what they were doing and try some form of the experiment as soon as possible? I'm surprised at Chris for generalizing, "scientists don't like change". It is simply that some do and some don't. The two species generally tolerate each other pretty well until those that don't get in the way of those that do. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 05:06:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA14064; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:03:47 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" cha (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199704151129.GAA22649 natasha.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Lti4v1.0.fR3.ywsKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Scott Little wrote: > > Isn't another classic example the initial response of the scientific > community to the 1989 P&F announcement? Didn't hundreds, maybe thousands, > of physicists & chemists all over the world drop what they were doing and > try some form of the experiment as soon as possible? > Right! That's what I tried to say in the next paragraph. My English is that poor eh? Cheers, Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 05:16:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA21852; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:14:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:14:58 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970415121431.008e91f0 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:14:31 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Vapour pressure curves Resent-Message-ID: <"ARhJB.0.ML5.25tKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:59 AM 4/15/97 +0000, Remi Cornwall wrote: >Vortex, > >(once again) >Anyone know where I can get v.p. curves for water hygroscopic substance >solutions. I want v.p. versus composition and for several temps. > Did you check International Critical Tables (Dusty tomes)? It is true that much of their data is incomplete; however they are a gold mine of information. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 05:29:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA14836; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: 15 Apr 97 08:26:27 EDT From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" cha (fwd) Message-ID: <970415122627_76570.2270_FHU36-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"z5KEv1.0.kd3.OHtKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin wrote: "the negative results of Caltech, MIT and Harwell turned off the vast majority of Physicists, including me." Yes, unfortunately the *fraudulent* "null" MIT results -- their calorimetry tests were positive and NOT negative - turned a lot of people off. Also, the hot fusion maffia at MIT organized its own press assault *against* P&F -- using the MIT News Office and yours truly as dupes. But their lies were eventually brought public. Too bad the so-called science journalists were not interested at that point. Caltech and Harwell both had problems with interpreting their results. The published literature now proves that Harwell had positive results. The Caltech results are sad in that high-school sophomore-level algebra mistakes were made in analyzing their own data. Of course Nature helped by refusing to publish the letters pointing out these flaws. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 05:36:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA15212; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:34:48 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:32:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970415083237_83062534 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: fepps mail1.halcyon.com, josephnewman@earthlink.net, gwatson microtronics.com.au Subject: Re: Rotating magnetic fields Resent-Message-ID: <"51FUe2.0.cj3.cNtKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Greg, Fred, Evan and All, Thanks you very much at all for your help and your answer at my question : " - Do you think that the magnetic field is directly linked kinematicly to the originate source ? " << Suj : Rotating magnetic fields Date : 15/04/1997 02:07:36 From: fepps halcyon.com (Fred B. Epps) Unfortunately for your idea, I think the answer is No, the magnetic field does not rotate with the magnet. Accordingly the magnetic energy doesn't either. Although I have a number of papers on this subject, the best experiment in my opinion was one carried out by D.F. Bartlett, ..... >> << Suj : Re: The Faraday Homopolar Generator Experiment Date : 15/04/1997 00:32:16 From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Dear Jean-Louis, The magnetic field (created by gyroscopic particles) is directly, _mechanically_ linked by such gyroscopic particles back to source from which the gyroscopic particles come, i.e., the aligned atoms. Refer to pages 10 & 11 of Joseph Newman's book. >> I have some matter of thinking about this subject now : This is "The magic lamp" experiment, ( fonts used Courier 10 ) ______________________________Lab's ceiling_____________ I I I I I +---------------------- Electrometer XXX D I / XXX XXX ================ XXX Coil (fixed on lab ceiling) XXX . XXX the disc D is fixed on lab's O L: Lamp . .axis of rotation . . \O/ B : Rotating observer I / \ \O/ A : fixed observer P ======= I ______________.________/_\__________lab's ground In this experiment you have : -a) A big coil ( flat coil ) which produce a high static magnetic field the coil is FIXED on the lab's ceiling b) Inside the coil there is a copper disc, the center of the disc D is FIXED on the lab's ceiling by its center ( to the ground ) c) An electronic Electrometer is connected between the rim of the disc D and the lab's ground or lab's ceiling. d) This electronic Electrometer have an electronic trigger which is able to switch on a LAMP L as soon as its detect a very little potential on the disc D ( it is easy to build this device by using a MosFet gate and an amplificator..), this electrometer is FIXED on lab's ground. e) We need to have two humans observers : - The first guy A is in the lab ( on the ground ) - the other guy B is on the rotating tray P which rotate on the axis of the coil and disc. We have TWO CASES now : 1) IF the magnetic field of the coil IS NOT directly linked mechanically to the originate source (the coil). ( As said Fred ) The Observer A in the lab see : - a static magnetic field and a static disc RESULT : The electrometer indicate no charge on the disc, the lamp is OFF = the observer A is in a darkroom. The Observer B on the rotating plate see : - a moving magnetic field, because there is a relative movement between the moving observer and the disc D as said the relativity. RESULT : The electrometer indicate an induced charge on a disc, the lamp is ON = the observer B is in lighroom !!!! very strange.... :-) 2) IF the magnetic field of the coil IS directly linked mechanically to the originate source (the coil). ( As said Evan ) The Observer A in the lab see : - a static magnetic field and a static disc RESULT : The electrometer indicate no charge on the disc, the lamp is OFF = the observer A is in a darkroom. The Observer B on the rotating plate see : - a static magnetic field and a static disc , because magnetic field is linked mechanically to the coil. RESULT : The electrometer indicate no charge on the disc, the lamp is OFF = the observer B is in a darkroom. Where is the truth ? Nothing magic, but only relative.... For whose want to see a better picture than my ascii drawing, I have put a Gif picture in my web site at : http://members.aol.com/overunity/images/magilamp.gif I look forward to receive your comments ( I hope that there is ....). Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509@aol.com my Overunity WEB Server< /A> : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm WWPager, UIN: 747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 06:09:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA27198; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:07:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:07:05 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970415090529_-634383481 emout01.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Professor Farrell Speaks Resent-Message-ID: <"rtZY03.0.pe6.vrtKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, Thanks for posting some of John Farrell's recent statements and responses on sci.physics.fusion (SPF) about the Mills hydrino hypothesis. A question (for you or any other Vortexian who follows SPF): Has anyone on SPF other than Farrell himself spoken up in favor of the Mills hydrino hypothesis? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 06:12:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA27779; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:10:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:10:55 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:11:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: 'Forbidden Science' Book, R. Milton Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"bTRry.0.zn6.VvtKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortex, At the risk of teaching grandparents to suck eggs... A book was recommended to me by a lecturer (you've probably read it) called 'Forbidden Science' by Richard Milton publ. 4th Estate. Excellent section on Cold Fusion and the MIT incident which brought me up to speed. It's all so childish. I'm learning who the heroes and the cads are. Can grown men really be such as*holes? Fills me with great optimism. I recommend it. Remi. ........................................................................... Hot tip #1, 'Stupid but true': Don't pay taxes by direct debit Come the redress, you're the gnat, they're the elephant. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 06:21:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA18915; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: 15 Apr 97 09:15:53 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Science ethics (an oxymoron) Message-ID: <970415131553_72240.1256_EHB70-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"0IsVg3.0.Td4.b0uKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Martin Sevior writes: The classic example is the discovery of the High Temperature Superconductors. The APS meeting was jammed to overflowing. . . . Yes, there are examples like this. Some breakthroughs are hailed. Others are rejected. It depends on whose ox is gored. HTSC did not wreck anyone's theory or threaten anyone's pocketbook, so it was welcomed. Breakthroughs like amorphous semiconductors and heliobactor were a threat, so they were attacked for a decade. It is a pocketbook issue. I also witnessed and felt a similar phenomena right after the P&F press conference. Many, many Physicists suspended disbelief on the grounds of Coulomb barrier and the "dead graduate student" problems and went out and tried it in the mistaken belief that this was an easy effect to reproduce. No, only a handful did. Most started foaming at the mouth and spreading vicious rumors about Pons and Fleischmann. Many are still at it. The personal failure of almost every attempt combined with the negative results of Caltech, MIT and Harwell turned off the vast majority of Physicists, including me. Those famous three tell the whole story! All three got a positive result. The people Caltech dismissed the result by saying the calibration constant of their calorimeter had changed. MIT moved the data points down. The people at Harwell did not understand enough about calorimetry to interpret the data. A few years later, Mellich proved that they had excess heat. All three continue to deny the results were positive. Those were never intended to be experiments, they were deliberate hatchet jobs. MIT held a party celebrating the death of cold fusion weeks before their experiment got underway. A few days after the original announcement the MIT profs were on the phone with reporters, anonymously attacking Pons and Fleischmann. On the same topic, Scott Little writes: Isn't another classic example the initial response of the scientific community to the 1989 P&F announcement? Didn't hundreds, maybe thousands, of physicists & chemists all over the world drop what they were doing and try some form of the experiment as soon as possible? No, that never happened. That is one of the myths of 1989. Afterwards, people said "didn't hundreds of people try this?" Gradually, people began to believe that. But when you try to track down these "hundreds" you will find it is like tracking UFO sightings. Most never happened, and the others are multiple references to the same small number of events. In Georgia I do not think more than one experiment was performed, and it was abandoned after a week. The fact is, in 1989, perhaps a hundred groups worldwide made serious efforts to replicate Pons and Fleischmann. Unfortunately most were physicists who went looking for neutrons, something you seldom, if ever, find. A small group of qualified electrochemists ran the experiment, and most of them succeeded. They later published positive results. I'm surprised at Chris for generalizing, "scientists don't like change". It is simply that some do and some don't. The two species generally tolerate each other pretty well Chris and I have met many scientists and many other people in other walks of life. It is always difficult to generalize about any group of people, but I think we can say with confidence that scientists tend to be conservative and against change, disruption and rocking the boat. They don't mind small breakthroughs like HTSC that threaten nobody's funding, but they despise big changes. They do not "tolerate" well. Not by the standards of the work-a-day world. Frankly, I have never seen such vicious infighting and such rotten ethics. I have been paying close attention to the back pages of Scientific American and the weekly science section of the New York Times for the last five years. It seems to me that scientists routinely engage in unethical behavior including character assassination, plagiarism, fake data, anti-trust violations (called "peer review"), and on and on. They say things like "CETI has retracted, they no longer claim large input to output ratios" when, in fact, CETI has done nothing of the kind. In other walks of life, this sort of behavior would ruin a person's reputation. Business ethics are miles above those of science. I cannot imagine Microsoft deliberately spreading a rumor that Quicken has withdrawn a product or retracted a claim. You read about unethical business behavior in the back pages of the Wall Street Journal, but the outcomes are different. People get indicted, people get sued, companies go out business. Nothing bad ever seems to happen in science. The other day I saw an article that I think described the root of the problem. I did not cut it out, unfortunately. It described yet another case of fake data. The dean of science said what they always say. Something like: "the problem is that science works on an honor system. We do not expect people to cheat, so we don't have checks and balances to prevent that sort of thing." I thought to myself, this is an open invitation for thieves & scoundrels. It is like running a bank on the honors system, where you leave the cash on a table in the lobby and let the customers help themselves. The dean is telling unethical people to go ahead and cheat, nobody will check, you won't be caught. I find it incredible -- shocking! -- that the government and other major institutions hand out millions of dollars in research grants to institutions that have no mechanism to detect and punish fraud and other unethical behavior. What does that dean of science think people are made of? If you give people money and you do not hold them accountable, they will usually rob you. That's human nature. I have heard scientists say "nobody would bother to steal a small research grant for a few thousand dollars." They are far removed from reality. Science grants are big money by the standards of the outside world. Welfare cheats make a great effort to steal $200; store clerks and stock room employees will scheme to steal $20 worth of staples and rubber bands. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 07:20:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA04341 for billb@eskimo.com; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:20:20 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:20:20 -0700 X-Envelope-From: mikec snip.net Tue Apr 15 07:20:18 1997 Received: from web1.snip.net (mail.SNIP.NET [208.211.64.2]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA04319 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:20:18 -0700 Received: from default ([208.211.65.217]) by web1.snip.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11381) with ESMTP id AAA207 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:20:36 -0400 Reply-To: < snip.net> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: HELP Old-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:08:19 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19970415142035401.AAA207 default> X-Diagnostic: help sent X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: I don't have the correct address for the vortex listprocessor and I dont' seem to be able to reach Bill Beaty. Can anyone help me? I want to change my address. For the moment I can be reached at rmcarrell aol.com and mikec snip.net. Thanks MIke carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 07:44:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA06748; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:39:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:39:16 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:38:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704151438.KAA03831 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: fstenger interlaced.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-reply-to: <19970415004152.AAA23469 LOCALNAME> (frederick.sparber@worldnet.att.net) Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"9dhaf3.0.Mf1.KCvKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber (frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net) said: > If you went to a water-potassium carbonate or hydroxide setup with > the whole thing in a small tank with a ceramic "gate" ran with > an actuator, it might get interesting with the conductive water > establishing the charge flow. > This way you could charge up the capacitor bank and as the gate > rapidly allowed the two pools of conductive water to make contact > through the water "aperature" there should be a fast pinch formed > through the gate aperature. Hmmm. Sounds way too slow. Try this... Have two conical electrodes pointing at each other. Have a small hole in a reservoir that allows your (LiOH?) solution to form a droplet at the bottom of the top electrode. Once you know the parameters of how large the droplet can get before the current arcs over, build a water cannon that fires a drop of solution through the gap. (When I did this I used the glass part from an eyedropper and a solenoid connected by a short length of rubber vacuum hose.) You are not necessarily looking to bridge the entire gap, just to get things started. Of course, if the voltage is low enough, you might succeed with just the water cannon. > Frank S. Do you think you could do this with your capacitor bank > without leveling Ashtabula? :-) If you do it right you are going to turn one or two drops of water into several hundred times that volume of steam. FAST. Well, actually if you do it right, water --> steam --> H+ + OH- --> plasma --> steam. I suggest surrounding things with some fiberglass insulation to absorb most of the noise and keep the police from investigating. (Might want to give them a call anyway. With the muffler it sounds more like gunshots than high explosives.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 07:53:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA28949; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970415144604.00751940 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:46:04 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Bernard instability -- Vertical Calorimetry Resent-Message-ID: <"jmaHl1.0.C47.oKvKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:03 AM 4/14/97 -0800, Michael Schaeffer wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote, re Scott Little and Patterson cell flow calorimetry: > >> Do you understand the potential amplification effect of a >> vertical flow calorimeter? > >I understand the Benard instability of which you speak and its potential to >give an erroneous temperature reading. Good. Do you understand that the Rayleigh Taylor wavelength and the width of the cell (2.5 cm in some of the PPC type cells) determine if the instability occurs? BTW do you agree with Jed that a 17 degree temperature gradient does not cause such instability? even though you can see it in your cup of coffee when the width is greater than a R-T wavelength? ======================================================== > MUCH MORE serious in the Patterson >cell is that nonuniform heat release in the cell can give erroneous >temperatures, and this is a problem in horizontal as well as vertically >oriented cells! Do you mean the input and output temperatures may not be indicative the heterogeneity? Can you prove it is "MUCH MORE" serious? ======================================================== > I did lots of this kind of calorimetry myself last year. >The solution to both problems is THOROUGH MIXING of the fluid before it >passes the exit temperature probe. I always tested our calorimeter by >ABSOLUTE measurements (current, voltage, inlet and outlet temperatures, >liquid flow rate), and it was right on. During electrolysis we also >measured offgas flow rate. We did not use any correction factors. Scott >is doing all this well, too. Then you made errors if you did vertical calorimetry to the degree there is Bernard instability, and relative low flow flow rates were used. It may not have mattered if you did not get "excess heat", but if you did, then under those conditions there is an amplification factor which is correctable by that ratio of fluid flow to buoyancy to total flow. ======================================================== >My point is, stop criticising measurements that are well done. The day you accept Fleischmann and Pons' expts which were well done, and Miles' experiments which were well done, and Longchampt's experiments which were well done, ..... etc.... is the day you will be taken more seriously about this. ======================================================== > The technique might be different from yours, but it is still valid, within >limits. There are two questions that stem from considering your statement. 1. What are those limits - do you agree with there being limits? and those being as stated? 2. And in the alternative, if it is valid, then so are the curves which I plotted of Pflow vs. Ima(in), and the 3-sigma variations for error bars. Did Michael Schaeffer look at them, examine the continuum electromechanical theory of loading, and consider any of the possible implications? Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 08:16:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA00640; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" (by way of "Frederick J. Sparber" ) Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:01:56 +0000 Message-ID: <19970415150154.AAA8750 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"1IQ4F2.0.u9.YYvKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:12 AM 4/15/97 +0000, Frank Stenger wrote: >Frederick, it might be easier to just use my switch to drop the caps >across any "water aperature". Whatever, you're a number-cruncher at >heart - calculate what current levels we could reach prior to exploding >the electrolyte thermodynamically. Remember, my bank is so slow that >it does'nt act like Robert E. says it should for a good pinch. >You need to consider the conductivity of the electrolyte, its specific >heat, its boiling point, etc. The current rise rate for my rig in its >present configuration is about 0.666 kiloamp/microsecond (roughly a >ramp up to 200 kamp in 300 microseconds. I really think of this bank as >a "battery" with a quick discharge rate. I was really hoping to test >ideas similar to the submarine battery ball-lightning experiments you >may have heard about. The ball-lightning experiments sound like Robert Golka's work. He was a house guest a couple of times in the late 70's early 80's it's been a while since I've heard from Bob. His Windover, Utah setup was quite spectacular. We never did talk all that much while he was here. He preferred to play our piano, (the best it has ever been played). He had a piano in his B-29 hangar lab at Windover. Sort of like Nero fiddling whilst Rome burned to the ground. :-) When you put around 1500 volts across a "cylinder" of water say 4 mm in diameter by 4 mm long, backed up by 64 Kilojoules of capacitor energy storage, I would make book that it will pinch as it goes to a high pressure ionized hydrogen-oxygen gas. On the other hand, with a couple of pounds of water to absorb the 64 Kj or 64 Btu's it would only raise the water about 30 deg F or so on each shot. I figure the simplest "gate" would be a ceramic "plug" in the ceramic separator plate that can be rapidly withdrawn like an automotive valve-seat. This could be done with a valve spring and a sort of trip-wire-string setup, located outside your fiendish laboraatory.... :-) > >Instead of a water element, I did vaporize an aluminum coke can for a >local high school science club! I really think we would just blow up >the water element before we reached pinch conditions. >Care to run the calcs to check this out? In the words of Scott Crossfield; "One test is worth more than a thousand opinions." > >Still sweating over an open varnish can ------ Frank S. > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 08:30:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA03187; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:23:26 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970415112027_1454623842 emout15.mail.aol.com> To: 76570.2270 compuserve.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: got it Resent-Message-ID: <"DrmgS1.0.hn.hrvKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Caught your talk off of NPR internet site. At 14,000 the sound broke up and stopped in a few locations but 90% of it came through continuously, loud and, clear. I was surprised to find that sound could be transmitted in real time over the net. Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 08:37:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA14930; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:35:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:35:13 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:35:07 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704151535.KAA11533 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" cha (fwd) Resent-Message-ID: <"QzZJU1.0.Cf3.m0wKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 22:03 4/15/97 +1000, Martin wrote: >Right! That's what I tried to say in the next paragraph. My English is >that poor eh? Nope!...It's my reading! Sorry. OK, Jed, I'll freely give you, "Most scientists don't like change...a few do". Thank goodness for the few, eh? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 08:43:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA15540; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:38:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:38:39 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:37:54 +0000 Message-ID: <19970415153752.AAA25509 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"G6E0d.0.ko3.-3wKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:38 PM 4/15/97 +0000, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > Frederick J. Sparber (frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net) said: > > > If you went to a water-potassium carbonate or hydroxide setup with > > the whole thing in a small tank with a ceramic "gate" ran with > > an actuator, it might get interesting with the conductive water > > establishing the charge flow. > > > This way you could charge up the capacitor bank and as the gate > > rapidly allowed the two pools of conductive water to make contact > > through the water "aperature" there should be a fast pinch formed > > through the gate aperature. > > Hmmm. Sounds way too slow. Try this... Have two conical >electrodes pointing at each other. Have a small hole in a reservoir >that allows your (LiOH?) solution to form a droplet at the bottom of >the top electrode. Slow but sure. I'm looking for the stripping of the electrons from the oxygen-potassium-lithium (out to 872 ev or so) then EUV photons when the electrons recombine with the oxygen-potassium-lithium. Then a few light electron pairs from these photons, and then of course the Mills "Hydrino" and whatever heat and few Hot Fusion reactions they make. Sound easy? :-) > > Once you know the parameters of how large the droplet can get >before the current arcs over, build a water cannon that fires a drop >of solution through the gap. (When I did this I used the glass part >from an eyedropper and a solenoid connected by a short length of >rubber vacuum hose.) You are not necessarily looking to bridge the >entire gap, just to get things started. Of course, if the voltage is >low enough, you might succeed with just the water cannon. > > > Frank S. Do you think you could do this with your capacitor bank > > without leveling Ashtabula? :-) > > If you do it right you are going to turn one or two drops of water >into several hundred times that volume of steam. FAST. Well, >actually if you do it right, water --> steam --> H+ + OH- --> plasma >--> steam. I suggest surrounding things with some fiberglass >insulation to absorb most of the noise and keep the police from >investigating. (Might want to give them a call anyway. With the >muffler it sounds more like gunshots than high explosives.) Extra strong pressure vessel required? > > > Robert I. Eachus > >with Standard_Disclaimer; >use Standard_Disclaimer; >function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 09:04:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA07821; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:58:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704151558.LAA03970 spectre.mitre.org> To: fstenger interlaced.net CC: frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-reply-to: <3352F203.5581 interlaced.net> (fstenger@interlaced.net) Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"nZqAu.0.5w1.-NwKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis J. Stenger (fstenger interlaced.net) said: > Remember, my bank is so slow that it does'nt act like Robert > E. says it should for a good pinch. Here's an idea for you... Dump your capacitor through a step down transformer: ______________________________________ | ()()()()() | + | ========== | ___|___ __()()()___ | _______ | | / | |_ _ _ _ _| | | | shunt | | | | | | | |___>-<___| | - | target | | | _______|______________________________| The idea is that the shunt vaporizes itself and opens the circut. (I used to use a fine single strand from a multistrand AWG 16 copper wire.) When the circut opens the inductance of the transformer avalanches an arc through the target which sees the equivalent of an almost infinite (voltage) rise-time. Best, of course, is to have the current through the shunt either pinched off or quenched. To quench you want an oil can with a tight lid. The lid should have a hole in the center with a splash cover below: _________________ __________________ | | __|___________|__ The mounting posts can be 10/32 screws and nuts. Use the same to put two long posts through the lid and down into the oil. 10/32 by 3" brass screws will do. Proper design, and lots of head space, and you won't have much oil thrown out the blowhole when the shunt goes. (The first trick is to put the vent in the center of the lid--most of the oil tries to climb the walls of the can.) I used a special transformer oil, but as long as you avoid PCBs and other nasties any oil will do. Plain mineral oil is probably easiest--just don't use motor oil with it's additives. Now for your target. You can either get fancy and try to close the circut just after the current starts flowing through the transformer, have a spark gap, or put a switch in the circut. The most reliable switch I found was a power transistor. When the shunt blows, you exceed the voltage rating by a lot. This fries the transistor but gives you a low drop, low inductance short. I had access to a lot of rejects where on most the emitter was burned out. (Different project--finally found some 600V rated SCRs that survived even though we were putting an 80 amp pulse through a 3 amp (average) rated device. But in this application, you will be going for a kiloamp or so. If the can is designed right, the base and collector connections can take it. (The device inbetween will melt of course, but by the time the silicon gets too hot to conduct, you won't care.) > Instead of a water element, I did vaporize an aluminum coke can for a > local high school science club! I really think we would just blow up > the water element before we reached pinch conditions. > Care to run the calcs to check this out? If you want to pinch water, it is tough, but possible. I had the best success with a two stage current pulse. A "little" bump to create the plasma and then a big bump to collect it all up and confine it. For the record--and Frank apparently already knows from his switch design--you are sacrificing a lot of circut elements for every shot with most of these designs. The energy dumped in the sacrificed items is more than most firecrackers you see (we used to rate losses in M-80s). Definitely more than enough to blow a hand off or kill you if something gets you in the eye. I wore a welders mask with the dark filter up, UV protective goggles inside that, and heavy work gloves over thin leather gloves--and a heavy lab coat. (Oh, yes, and shooter's ear plugs.) I still didn't stand close to anything when I expected it to go BOOM! And I still cracked two faceplates--that's why the plastic goggles underneath. ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 09:22:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA18949; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:04:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:04:42 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:04:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704151604.LAA14718 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Anodizing Resent-Message-ID: <"eAW-32.0.wd4.PSwKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I need to do a little on-site anodizing of aluminum. I'd appreciate a recipe from anyone who has a book on metal finishing. Thanks. Scott Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 09:26:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA21092; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:20:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:20:19 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:22:25 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bernard instability -- Vertical Calorimetry Resent-Message-ID: <"3jOjU2.0.P95.2hwKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > At 09:03 AM 4/14/97 -0800, Michael Schaeffer wrote: >>Mitchell Swartz wrote, re Scott Little and Patterson cell flow calorimetry: >> >>I understand the Benard instability of which you speak and its potential to >>give an erroneous temperature reading.> > > Good. Do you understand that the Rayleigh Taylor wavelength >and the width of the cell (2.5 cm in some of the PPC type cells) >determine if the instability occurs? Yes, I understand this. I also understnad that the threshold depends on the vertical headroom, which is small in the typical Patterson cell. The Patterson bead pack greatly increases the effective viscosity of the liquid and strongly damps Benard cells. > BTW do you agree with Jed that a 17 degree temperature gradient >does not cause such instability? even though you can see it in >your cup of coffee when the width is greater than a R-T wavelength? I can't say, because, as cited above, much more enters than just the R-T wavelength, and I don't know the details of that system. > > >> MUCH MORE serious in the Patterson >>cell is that nonuniform heat release in the cell can give erroneous >>temperatures, and this is a problem in horizontal as well as vertically >>oriented cells! > > Do you mean the input and output > temperatures may not be indicative the heterogeneity? ??? The above is a non-sentence. > Can you prove it is "MUCH MORE" serious? Well, we could see temperature variations depending on how the cell was packed, until we introduced good mixing. Our mixing was carried out in the outlet tube itself (about 3 mm diameter) just ahead of the thermocouple. The liquid speed in this region always exceeded 1 cm/s. There is no way a Benard instability could have developed any significant amplitude, even if enough temperature inhomogeneity remained. > Then you made errors if you did vertical calorimetry to the >degree there is Bernard instability, and relative low flow >flow rates were used. See above. Our flow rates were not 'low'. We verified (with good mixing) that delta-T x specific heat x flow rate equaled V x I of calibration heater. This verified that there were no untoward artifacts. We took calibration heater data at the start and end of each experiment. > Did Michael Schaeffer look at them, examine the continuum >electromechanical theory of loading, and consider any of the possible >implications? I, Michael Schaffer, did not look at Scott's data in detail. The way we resolve this kind of issue in thermonuclear fusion is: someone goes to the other lab, and works with the staff there for days, weeks, even months. We work on each other's experiments long enough to understand the characteristics of the apparatus, instruments and analysis being used. > The day you accept Fleischmann and Pons' expts which were >well done, and Miles' experiments which were well done, and >Longchampt's experiments which were well done, ..... etc.... >is the day you will be taken more seriously about this. I guess you don't know me well. I do take all these and several other CF experiments seriously. ("Accept" is too much like faith.) Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 09:34:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA09456; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970415161226.007051e4 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:12:26 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Potential Factors which Might Amplify Resent-Message-ID: <"dsv5J3.0.eJ2.cbwKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:03 AM 4/15/97 EDT, Jed wrote: >To: Vortex > >Ed Wall quotes Mitchell Swartz: > > To put this in perspective; a soldering iron is 25 watts, and a > soldering gun is 45 watts. Jed claims more than a kilowatt, but ALL the > plastic and components, IMHO, looks suprisingly .... , well, clean. > >I believe the implication here is that a kilowatt device must scorch or get >exceedingly hot. If so, this is more nonsense. Jed says "MUST". And he appears to be wrong, if this concerns my post. More reproducibility (precision) without accuracy. The post -- which gave several significant reasons which are still ignored -- concluded and said, "Finally, and this is more suggestive, but must be considered given number four, when we have had sustained powers of ~100 watts, there has been on occasion considerable damage to at least some components. I believe I showed you some of the material damage characteristically seen on occasion, at ILENR2. To put this in perspective; a soldering iron is 25 watts, and a soldering gun is 45 watts. Jed claims more than a kilowatt, but ALL the plastic and components, IMHO, looks suprisingly .... , well, clean." First, it did not say "MUST". It said "suggestive given number four". Second, water is a good heat storage and heat transmission medium, and with good engineering one need not get damage, if the heat removal and materiel are correctly planned for a priori. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 09:34:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA09816; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970415161348.00cfeccc world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:13:48 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challenge Resent-Message-ID: <"0UEPr2.0.GP2.BdwKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:32 AM 4/14/97 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) said: > > Therefore, when noise is considered, it doesn't really sound > > like a problem. The problem is getting the skeptics to understand > > that this ash, and the helium-4, and maybe even hydrinos (since > > He-4 does not account for 100% of the heat) and deuterium > > production play a role. > > I have to side with the skeptics in part on this one. In an arc >you can have a few particles acelerated much above the group rate. >(This is usually due a developing pinch, and even DC arcs pinch all >the time--stability is a continuous arc current, not a constant >voltage.) You can then get stripping, which has a much higher >cross-section in the 1-2 Mev energy range than fusion: > > 2d+ ---> d+ + n + p+ > If this is not exothermic, it cannot be the source of the observed excess heat. It might remove some of the generated energy, but cannot be source. What do you estimate the energy required is? (even though some may be restored through secondary processes such as Horace and yourself suggested.) Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 09:39:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA09598; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970415161240.00d4c718 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:12:40 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Potential Factors which Might Increase Power Gain Resent-Message-ID: <"0iOEi2.0.uL2.AcwKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:37 AM 4/15/97 +0000, Ed Wall wrote: >Water is an excellent heat-sink, because of high heat specificity. When >flowing, it removes and redistributes heat, so damaging concentrations would >not result. The lack of damage to heat sensitive parts indicates nothing to >me, as long as the flow rate was adequate. True, if engineered in advance. There is some suggestion that such energy flux rates might not have been carried by those flow rates with PVC tubing etc. Therefore the text actually said, "Finally, and this is more suggestive, but must be considered given number four (which was the argument above it which shall not be repeated here). Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 09:41:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA24601; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:36:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:36:10 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: fstenger interlaced.net From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:35:00 +0000 Message-ID: <19970415163457.AAA21557 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"pwe291.0.J06.vvwKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank; A couple of relevant points: 1, Does Ashtabula have an ordnance,ordinance? , Do you have or could you rent, a Lab Retriever? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 10:16:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA16444; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:03:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Anodizing Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:01:43 +0000 Message-ID: <19970415170141.AAA1213 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"O75pC2.0.o04.IJxKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:04 PM 4/15/97 +0000, Scott Little wrote: >I need to do a little on-site anodizing of aluminum. I'd appreciate a >recipe from anyone who has a book on metal finishing. Thanks. > >Scott > > You make the aluminum the anode in a bath of Chromic Acid, or sulfuric acid, or boric acid plus ammonium borate.The cathode can be carbon or stainless steel. A 15 percent sulphuric acid solution operated at 60 to 80 deg F with a current density of 12 amperes/square foot at about 15 volts. Should take about 20 minutes. Wash in water and rinse in dilute ammonia and rinse again in water. Wash again in boiling water to seal pores. If you need a thick hardcoat that can be produced in seconds, send me a note. Regards, Frederick >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 10:55:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA24372; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: 15 Apr 97 13:35:11 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" cha Message-ID: <970415173511_100433.1541_BHG58-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"tP-G93.0.ky5.W-xKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed and Gene have made most of the important points on the science community's behaviour over CF. Just a couple of points: - 1. Science history is a farce, in that it includes a set of myths. Cold Fusion has joined that set, with the myth of MIT, Harwell and Caltech. Similar myths are the one of Galileo as the persecuted hero of science - with the implication that the science community does not persecute its errant members; the myth that the Wrights (not being members of the community) were just lucky tinkerers; or the myth that science progresses in a grand majestic sweep rather than by breakthroughs which are almost always the subject of attack - not rational discussion, but vicious personal attack. 2. Scientists are unware or deny the fact that the thermal anomaly of CF has been confirmed endlessly by replication. That violates all the rules of science, and those who argue that there is a rather higher standard of thinking or ethics in science cannot explain this. I'm passionately enthusiastic about science, and about the great experimental scientists - the Faradays, the Thomsons, the Fleischmanns. I even think that elucidating the mechanism whereby the excess energy of CF appears may be the most important result of the whole affair. What new wonders might not be found in that strange phenomenon? And I am not anti-scientist. I just wish that they could understand that they are 'just these guys', not some kind of superior beings. Two of the pillars of wisdom are that we must realise how little we truly understands, and that we must understand our weaknesses and those of our colleagues. "Humility" seems to be one of these words which don't cross the Pond very well. I see humility on the face of a glorious and little- understood universe to be an essential qualification for anyone, even a scientist. Another thing. Quite a few Vortex messages are coming through to me with all the line-feeds missing - the header and the text all come through as one big lump. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 10:56:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA04625; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:46:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:46:11 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970415174427.0075490c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:44:27 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Bernard instability -- Vertical Calorimetry Resent-Message-ID: <"ZGcFS.0.B81.YxxKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:22 AM 4/15/97 -0800, Michael Schaeffer wrote: >>>Mitchell Swartz wrote, re Scott Little and Patterson cell flow calorimetry: >>> >>>I understand the Benard instability of which you speak and its potential to >>>give an erroneous temperature reading.> >> >> Good. Do you understand that the Rayleigh Taylor wavelength >>and the width of the cell (2.5 cm in some of the PPC type cells) >>determine if the instability occurs? > >Yes, I understand this. I also understnad that the threshold depends on >the vertical headroom, which is small in the typical Patterson cell. The >Patterson bead pack greatly increases the effective viscosity of the liquid >and strongly damps Benard cells. > Do you have the equation with vicosity included? Given the Patterson cells (this is terrible terminology, consider Patterson cells, Bernard cells, electrolysis cells, cell cells) there must also be included their capillarity effect increasing movement, and their impact on vertical heat flow, too. Do you have an equation with both? ============================================ >> BTW do you agree with Jed that a 17 degree temperature gradient >>does not cause such instability? even though you can see it in >>your cup of coffee when the width is greater than a R-T wavelength? > >I can't say, because, as cited above, much more enters than just the R-T >wavelength, and I don't know the details of that system. Water, 17C. 2.5cm, 10cm length, you can get the rest yourself if you have a serious iota of interest. In the alternative, Jed should be overjoyed that an organization with the clout of General Atomics has supported him regarding his kilowatt levels based upon your analysis from General Atomics. ============================================ (left out to increase S/N) Do you mean the input and output temperatures may not be indicative OF the heterogeneity? ======================================= >> Can you prove it is "MUCH MORE" serious? > >Well, we could see temperature variations depending on how the cell was >packed, until we introduced good mixing. Our mixing was carried out in the >outlet tube itself (about 3 mm diameter) just ahead of the thermocouple. >The liquid speed in this region always exceeded 1 cm/s. There is no way a >Benard instability could have developed any significant amplitude, even if >enough temperature inhomogeneity remained. > >> Then you made errors if you did vertical calorimetry to the >>degree there is Bernard instability, and relative low flow >>flow rates were used. > >See above. Our flow rates were not 'low'. Well, let us examine this. You have not proved your hypothesis is even more important let along prove it quantitatively. You say the flow rate is 1 cm/s That is presumably 1 centimeter per second. This is a linear speed (not a velocity since there is no vectorial direction). For any quasi1D model, the units are wrong. To determine if it is even adequate flow, first you must use the correct units, or supply the area and further info, including: Was that the central speed, the average speed, was there even Poiselle or Couette flow? ============================================ >> Did Michael Schaeffer look at them, examine the continuum >>electromechanical theory of loading, and consider any of the possible >>implications? > >I, Michael Schaffer, did not look at Scott's data in detail. Michael apparently did you look at the error bars which I put on Scott's reported data of the KS spheres, either. Michael, you should, and thank you for the several grammatical corrections. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 10:59:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA03474; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:40:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:40:55 -0700 Date: 15 Apr 97 13:37:09 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Questions for M.S. Message-ID: <970415173708_72240.1256_EHB72-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"uWdfr.0.Cs.csxKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Michael Schaeffer wrote: Well, we could see temperature variations depending on how the cell was packed, until we introduced good mixing. Do you recall about big the variations were? Our mixing was carried out in the outlet tube itself (about 3 mm diameter) just ahead of the thermocouple. How did you ensure mixing? With one of those cute little static in-line mixers? The liquid speed in this region always exceeded 1 cm/s. Approximately how slow does it go before problems arise? I'd like to hear an educated guess. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 11:17:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA28263; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: 15 Apr 97 14:03:29 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: 'Forbidden Science' Book, R. Milton Message-ID: <970415180328_100433.1541_BHG26-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"-OWIp.0.Sv6.CLyKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Remi, > A book was recommended to me by a lecturer (you've probably read > it) called 'Forbidden Science' by Richard Milton publ. 4th > Estate.Excellent section on Cold Fusion and the MIT incident which > brought me up to speed. It's all so childish. I'm learning who the > heroes and the cads are.Can grown men really be such > as*holes?Fills me with great optimism.I recommend it.Remi. Careful. I provided Richard with all his info for that chapter! In some ways it's an interesting book, especially the bit about Millikan's "pathological science." The increasing interest in "sceptical of science" publications and TV programmes (the famous and long-running "Horizon" from BBC being a prime example) should stimulate self-criticism among scientists - rather than their usual wagon-circling. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 11:44:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA00351; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:27:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:28:29 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Questions for M.S. Resent-Message-ID: <"_SM6v1.0.I5.GYyKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Asked: >Michael Schaeffer wrote: > > Well, we could see temperature variations depending on how the cell was > packed, until we introduced good mixing. > >Do you recall about big the variations were? No, I don't. We had various irregularities when we were getting started. We always tried to understand them, ESPECIALLY when calibration runs didn't check out. We found a mixer helped get consistent absolute calibrations. > > Our mixing was carried out in the outlet tube itself (about 3 mm > diameter) just ahead of the thermocouple. > >How did you ensure mixing? With one of those cute little static in-line >mixers? No. By my rough calculation they are not very effective for low speed flows. Our mixer consisted of very thin Pt wire crumbled into a bundle about 1 cm long, that fit into and filled the exit tube. This produces a lot of tortuous liquid paths, and the high thermal conductivity of the metal helps short circuit thermal gradients, too. > The liquid speed in this region always exceeded 1 cm/s. > >Approximately how slow does it go before problems arise? I'd like to hear an >educated guess. I don't know. You can't do reliable flow calorimetry in a Patterson cell at low flows, so we never went below about 0.3 cm/s. More on BENARD (ugh!): I just realized that the Benard instability would NOT OCCUR AT ALL in an ideal Patterson cell. By 'ideal' I mean one wherein the heat release is independent of radial and azimuthal location, but depends only on the axial location (axial is usually vertical in Patterson cells). 'Ideal' also means that the mesh and bead beds are tortuous on a sufficiently small scale that the average liquid flow rate also does not vary with position. Under these ideal conditions, the liquid would exit the bead bed all at the same temperature. Thus, all the liquid above the beads would be at this same exit temperature, there would be no temperature gradient and no Benard instability. In practice, the heat is probably released nonuniformly, because not all beads perform equally. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 11:50:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA03209; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970415143429.007b2b20 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:34:31 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Quinney Subject: Re: The Faraday Homopolar Generator Experiment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"w_fr83.0.1o.hkyKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Greg Watson wrote: > > Looks like a Tolman Effect generator, except the central magnet causes > the electrons to follow a spiral outward path to the rim. Suspect the > spiral path causes a greater EMF to be generated that in a straight > Tolman spinning disk. > To test if the Tolman Effect is the predominant cause of voltage within a Homopolar Generator: Maybe one should build a large homopolar test rig that rotates with the axis horizontal to the earth, place the voltage test points on the central axis and on the circumference. Then take measurements at different radial positions. The axis-to-circumference-voltage might vary depending on the amount of g-force at different points. Of course, the G-force would be the greatest at the bottom of the arc. Anticipated results: a} n volts at the horizontal radial position. b} n volts -V at the top radial position c} n volts +V at the bottom radial position. Oops...But that test will probably not work, since there can be no voltage measurements taken from within the same coordinate system on the vertical gravitational component of the g-force. (The g-forces are composed of centrifugal and gravitational here). As an example of coordinate peculiarities, I would direct your attention to the phenomena of a homopolar generator where the voltage-indicating-device input wires are *soldered* to the rim and to the axis. Everything centrifugally rotates *with* the conductive copper disc (or the conductive magnet) ... but there are no brushes and there is no indicator voltage seen because the voltage indicator is rotating in the same coordinate system as the generator. (ref. Hathaway) If the homopolar generator voltage is due to the Tolman Effect, (which is the freeing up and movement of conduction electrons due to the acceleration on the conductor and producing a resultant potential difference{see the "Handbook of Magnetic Phenomena", by Harry E. Burke}, then everything else being equal, a homopolar generator disc should give up more voltage (briefly), if you just give it a few good radial whacks. Perhaps the efficiency can be improved by repeatedly abusing it ;-) Improving Efficiency: We know that the potential difference is also due to the strength of the magnetic field. Is it possible that the "length" of a spiral conduction path increases with the magnetic field strength? Perhaps the conductive disc should be *designed* as a spiral. The longer the spiral, the higher the voltage?. Is there any proof that the conductive path does traverse more than 360 degrees? (and do the electrons *know* that their space is curved?) The voltage output is not high. It is very low. This limits the usefulness of the homopolar generator/motor designs. Perhaps the generator conductive material should be made of a higher resistance material than copper. Would this diminish the efficiency ? ... If the impedance of the generator rises to the point where the "source" matches the load... there could be an engineering trade-off . At some point along here perhaps a homopolar generator could be made more useful. Any other ideas? Colin Quinney, Toronto, Canada. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 11:59:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA05024; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:51:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704151851.OAA04888 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <19970415153752.AAA25509 LOCALNAME> (frederick.sparber@worldnet.att.net) Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"KNgUf1.0.QE1.XvyKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Extra strong pressure vessel required? I thought I made that clear... You don't want to work in closed spaces, and certainly not in a pressure vessel. For experiments like this if out have to work in a vacuum or special atomosphere, you end up with gasketed blowout ports. And then you have plenty of padding to catch those ports when they blow off. Let me tell you about "flink." Take a meter long 10 mm id quartz tube and curl it into a spiral. Fill with Xenon gas at 100 torr. (You can still buy these, but I'm not sure GE is still making them.) Mount it by one end. Now dump a kilojoule or two in at 4000 volts. You will hear a noise that sounds like "flink." Took us a while to work out that the tube was contracting from the self inductance of the four-turn coil. So somebody figured, hey, let's try putting an iron core in there. Two days later--the iron had a major effect on the circutry and pulse shape--we got the pulse shape we wanted using a laminated steel core. We also got lots of quartz shards, as the compression shattered the tube. It took less than one hundred joules (of losses) to turn that tube into shrapnel. However, the experiment was worthwhile, because going the other direction--running the power leads to cancel the magnetic field--allowed us to get up over 50 kJ into one of those tubes. Hearing the "flink" told us when the wires were slightly mispositioned--until we got to the point where the heat losses in the tube were expanding it enough to make the same noise. Now imagine heating a greatfruit-sized object a thousand degrees in under a millisecond. Or, since it is what you are really trying to do, taking a drop or two of water up over 11000 degrees K in microseconds. If the energy goes where you want it, fine. If it doesn't, you want blowout vents, and you want BIG blowout vents. (Frank, how are you dealing with the capacitors? I put mine individual open topped soft-steel cans. Then I laid some foam scraps on top of that to limit shrapnel and surrounded the whole thing with cinder blocks. But I was playing with 4 to 10 kV charges.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 12:10:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA19726; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:07:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:07:19 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:07:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704151907.PAA05115 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <2.2.32.19970415161348.00cfeccc world.std.com> (message from Mitchell Swartz on Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:13:48 -0400) Subject: Re: A new CF "skeptic vs. believers" challenge Resent-Message-ID: <"LdZys.0.5q4.c7zKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) said: > If this is not exothermic, it cannot be the source of the > observed excess heat. It can be part of a graduate student killing excess heat producer. But that wasn't my point. It can lead to low-level tritium production and buildup which would confound the intended results. (But I hope they are not producing enough tritium this way to account for all of it.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 12:46:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA26026; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:42:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:42:40 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:41:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970415154107_1086813776 emout12.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: Potential Factors which Might . . . Resent-Message-ID: <"g-f3a2.0.WM6.lezKp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 4/15/97 1:03:55 PM, Jed wrote: <> Can you give approximate o-u ratios and output power levels? Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 12:57:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA11001; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:38:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: fstenger interlaced.net From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:37:00 +0000 Message-ID: <19970415193657.AAA16026 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"jg1A_1.0.ph2.zazKp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:24 PM 4/15/97 +0000, you wrote: >Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >> >> Frank; >> >> 1, Does Ashtabula have an ordnance,ordinance? >> >> 2, Do you have or could you rent, a Lab Retriever? :-) >> >Not to worry, Frederick. I have one neighbor who likes to tune up >hopped-up off-road pickup engines all the time and another who can't >seem to get enough target practice with his 12-gage! > >My toy fox terrier was so spooked by the capacitor shots that now, all >I need to do is count down from 5 and she heads for a hiding place. >The garage stays put so far! > >I'm not sure the locals would know how to legislate against the sudden >release of a bag of electrons. > >Frank S. > Our 4.5 acre "spread" was out in the country about 3 miles from "downtown" Belen. Walmart built a store (1990)about 1 1/2 miles from us and the town extended the city limits out to about a half mile from us to make sure they could get the tax revenues since most of the businesses in town folded. Now Walmart is building a "Superstore" about a quarter mile from us and the 23 acres of good farmland in front of us just sold for $3/4 million. and I don't live out in the country anymore. Anyhow, back when we used to have a July 4th get together for the kids, the neighbors' cocker spaniel kept trying to put out the fireworks with her paws. Never saw anything like it. Our Doberman, Heidi, would just sit and whine. She Loved Everybody, except people on horses or motorcycles. :-) BTW. Some great pointers from Robert Eachus, but a dachsund would do in a pinch. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 13:28:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA31974; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:17:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:17:13 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:19:19 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rotating magnetic fields Resent-Message-ID: <"3BO7a2.0.Vp7.99-Kp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] >This is "The magic lamp" experiment, > > ( fonts used Courier 10 ) > ______________________________Lab's ceiling_____________ > I I I > I I +---------------------- Electrometer > XXX D I / XXX > XXX ================ XXX Coil (fixed on lab ceiling) > XXX . XXX the disc D is fixed on lab's > O L: Lamp > . > .axis of rotation > . > . > \O/ B : Rotating observer > I > / \ \O/ A : fixed observer > P ======= I > ______________.________/_\__________lab's ground > [snip] > - The first guy A is in the lab ( on the ground ) > - the other guy B is on the rotating tray P which rotate on the axis of >the coil and disc. [snip] Both observers see no RELATIVE motion between disc, brush, wire, electrometer and return path through the lab ceiling. Therefore, both observers, if they know how to solve Maxwell's equations in moving coordinate systems, come to the same conclusion: NO induction; lamp should be OFF. There is no paradox. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 14:32:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA05893; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:07:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:07:38 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:06:44 +0000 Message-ID: <19970415210642.AAA10378 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"39unr1.0.zR1.Pu-Kp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:51 PM 4/15/97 +0000, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > I thought I made that clear... You don't want to work in closed >spaces, and certainly not in a pressure vessel. For experiments like >this if out have to work in a vacuum or special atomosphere, you end >up with gasketed blowout ports. And then you have plenty of padding >to catch those ports when they blow off. I hear you Robert. But, 64 Kilojoules (about 61 Btus) released under water pre-pressurized with a shock-absorbing inert gas cushion, should be doable for a safe pressure vessel. A friend at Sandia designed a similar container for a half ton of high explosives a few years back. I can't speak for Frank Stenger, but,nothing will be pursued by me in this direction until a safe containment vessel is designed and proven with explosive charges, and an adequate safety margin. I think Frank Stenger said that the 64 KJ is equivalent to twelve 12 Ga. shotgun shells. With his engineering background, I'm sure he can look over the feasibility of design for such a device. Otherwise it is a choice between containment in a vessel or in your neighborhood. :-) > > Now imagine heating a greatfruit-sized object a thousand degrees >in under a millisecond. Or, since it is what you are really trying to >do, taking a drop or two of water up over 11000 degrees K in >microseconds. If the energy goes where you want it, fine. If it >doesn't, you want blowout vents, and you want BIG blowout vents. I was thinking more in terms of ten million deg K or better in the little discharge (pinch) zone. Some interesting points to ponder yet, and plenty of homework to do. And many thanks for your lucid expertise.With Sandia Labs on one side and the explosives labs at New Mexico Tech on the other, I should find out how much "padding" it will take to prevent explosive-forming of the pressure vessel. :-) > > Robert I. Eachus > >with Standard_Disclaimer; >use Standard_Disclaimer; >function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is.... Best Regards, Frederick > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 14:56:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA26343; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3351A366.2A2DD640 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:24:22 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Re : Rotating magnetic fields X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: <"9cKgN1.0.WR6.oT_Kp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg wrote: >I believe your Homopolar demo generates electricity because the mag >field generated by the rotation magnet is not constant. A slight >uncentering of the magnet or bolt would cause the field surrounding the >spinning magnet to vary in density as it spins and induce an EMF in the >meter probes. The cause of the induced EMF can be easily determined by its type. If it is AC (not necessarily sinewave) or DC. Any unregularity of a magnetic field cause to an EMF. It can detected more firmly by a coil close to the rotating magnet. If it as a purely DC (never crossing zero) it can be inducted by the classical motional EMF that previously stated. There are examples of such of induction in my textbook. Actually, it is a very good a physics book that I recommend to Jean-Louis Naudin to own one. Only criticism about this book is that every phenomena and issues stated in this book are perfectly explained by related laws (Some known phenomenon which can not explained by these laws are naturally excluded). Physics For Scientists and Engineers Volume 2 Paul A. Tipler -------------------- Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 15:20:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA29345; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970415160446.009e1440 esa.lanl.gov> X-Sender: claytor_t_n esa.lanl.gov X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:04:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Thomas N. Claytor" Subject: Re: Anodizing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vpe5P3.0.NA7.uk_Kp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, Randy does all our electroplating and anodizing, red, black, clear, blue etc. Call him for a recipe. I'm sure he could get you going in short order or point you in the right direction. name: Randall L. Edwards e-mail: redwards lanl.gov forwarding addr: redwards mustang.mst6.lanl.gov phone: 505-665-1998 fax: 505-667-5268 organization: MST-6 postal address: MS G770 Tom. At 11:04 AM 4/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >I need to do a little on-site anodizing of aluminum. I'd appreciate a >recipe from anyone who has a book on metal finishing. Thanks. > >Scott > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm Thomas N. Claytor Claytor_t_n lanl.gov Los Alamos National Laboratory ESA-MT, MS C914 Los Alamos NM, 87545 505-667-6216 voice 505-665-7176 fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 15:49:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA21421; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:32:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:32:00 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:31:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704152231.SAA05552 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <19970415210642.AAA10378 LOCALNAME> (frederick.sparber@worldnet.att.net) Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"SlAJ7.0.dE5.V70Lp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber (frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net) said: > I hear you Robert. But, 64 Kilojoules (about 61 Btus) released > under water pre-pressurized with a shock-absorbing inert gas > cushion, should be doable for a safe pressure vessel. A friend at > Sandia designed a similar container for a half ton of high > explosives a few years back. You going to build you some Chobham armor? The problem as I mentioned is Murphy in all his guises. The apparatus that we are discussing can, if you are not careful, fire a self-forming munition or a plasma jet at that containment wall. I used to have a plasma jet nozzle on my office window. It had a hole burned clear through what started out as a 1/2 inch thick copper. Since the hole was in a location not visible to the nozzle tip, and not in the high speed camera's view, it took us a long time to solve the "what the hell went wrong." The nozzle had overheated and, in the process a thin ring near the tip separated. Before it separated completely, MHD and space charge got together to deflect the beam through a circle, and focus it behind the nozzle. It burned through in about a millisecond. Possibly less, but no more than 1.66 ms. Youch! Now think about exploding wires. I can take a wire run it around the inside of your containment, then discharge that capacitor into it. (Actually I need the higher rise time we are looking for.) Your steel containment is now in two pieces. Building some Chobham-like armor might not be a bad idea. Take a steel vessel, then use some silicone to cover the interior with firebrick. (I'd use 1/2" thick aluminum oxide bricks, but you choose.) Add more silicone on the interior, do a good job of curing with heat, and you now have something where if Murphy decides to have fun you maybe crack a few tiles. > I think Frank Stenger said that the 64 KJ is equivalent to twelve > 12 Ga. shotgun shells. With his engineering background, I'm sure > he can look over the feasibility of design for such a > device. Otherwise it is a choice between containment in a vessel > or in your neighborhood. :-) Sounds a little low, or does he mean shells plural? But to get really interesting, I'd look for about 1 MJ. (You could check what GE was using at the 1964 World's Fair.) The trick to figure out is how to get that oomph without buying a ton or two of capacitors. Actually if you are going to make real progress on pinches, the right way to go might be a homopolar generator. You need a sharp CURRENT rise time to trigger the compression, but from then on you are trying to hold the plasma in. Incidently Ben Franklin figured out to get a large high voltage, high current source. Not in the kite experiment, that was just a demonstration of the priniciple. You build a tower and wait for a thundercloud to approach. If your apparatus is properly designed--and if Franklin did it you can--you use the space charge effect IN FRONT OF THE CLOUD as your own personal high voltage source. Franklin even had a bell in his lab that told him when the energy was available. Cease experimenting before the rain starts... > I was thinking more in terms of ten million deg K or better in the > little discharge (pinch) zone. I can get/could get to 1 ev pretty easily. If you really want that hot a pinch though, it gets pretty tricky. You need to start with a cylinder with electrodes in both ends, and filled with very low pressure gas. Fire a laser to get the gas in the cylinder ionized, then fire off your caps. No trigger needed, or actually the trigger is when you bathe the interior of that cylinder with light at the right ionizing frequency. Get the laser energy pretty even, and you can get a nice dense pinch. But I hope you understand that the Lawson criteria looks real different in this regime. You want to maximize density, so the cooler the plasma the better. Also a cooler plasma gives you a longer confinement. Of course, if you want to really get fancy, start out with some negative ions. The plasma pressure against the pinch is the temperature in the X and Y directions. If you can get more energy in the Z direction, it strengthens the pinch. > Some interesting points to ponder yet, and plenty of homework to do. > And many thanks for your lucid expertise.With Sandia Labs on one side > and the explosives labs at New Mexico Tech on the other, I should > find out how much "padding" it will take to prevent explosive-forming > of the pressure vessel. :-) Get someone to demonstrate a shaped charge for you. Even a small shaped charge can burn through an inch or six of steel. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 17:00:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA15615; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33541322.781D interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:45:38 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Eachus- Capacitor safety References: <199704151851.OAA04888 spectre.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gcAUi.0.up3.OC1Lp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > (Frank, how are you dealing with the capacitors? I put mine > individual open topped soft-steel cans. Then I laid some foam scraps > on top of that to limit shrapnel and surrounded the whole thing with > cinder blocks. But I was playing with 4 to 10 kV charges.) > My hazard is 48, 350 VDC capacitors in parallel (Then 3 such groups in series.). The buss that parallels the caps is only #12 copper but the series path for discharge is 1/8 by 3/4 inch aluminum strap. I have had about 2 capacitor shorts with damage always limited to one cap. Maybe the 350 volts plus the rather long #12 path tends to clear the short before the remaining 47 caps can dump their energy? Bottom line is that I assume my bank will explode any time it's charged and remove myself from the closed garage in this condition. I "broke into" engineering on rocket engine test stands so I take your warnings to heart! At multi-kilovolt levels I can imagine the problem being much worse. I try to keep reminding myself to avoid stupid moves! Your words of experience have been very educational, Robert. Thanks! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 17:19:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA08286; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:11:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:11:01 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:15:16 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Swartz's question re: stripping energy Resent-Message-ID: <"cKcgB.0.O12.Ka1Lp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:13 PM 4/15/97, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >At 10:32 AM 4/14/97 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote: [snip] >>You can then get stripping, which has a much higher >>cross-section in the 1-2 Mev energy range than fusion: >> >> 2d+ ---> d+ + n + p+ >> > > If this is not exothermic, it cannot be the source of the >observed excess heat. > > It might remove some of the generated >energy, but cannot be source. > > What do you estimate the energy required is? > (even though some may be restored through secondary > processes such as Horace and yourself suggested.) > > Mitchell Swartz Computing energy cost of stripping: 2d+ -2*(2.0140) = 4.0280 d+ -2.0140 n -1.0087 p+ -1.0078 ======= Net mass loss -0.0025 So we have: 2.3 MeV + 2d+ ---> d+ + n + p+ Which corresponds to a 2.7x10^10 deg. C reaction. It is difficult to imagine much of a tail in a 50 million deg. plasma to support such a reaction. It makes one wonder if there is not a direct mechanism for producing: 2d+ ---> t+ + p+ + 3.8 MeV or maybe: 2.3 MeV + 2d+ ---> t+ + p+ + 6.1 MeV It is tempting to think such reactions might be responsible for cold fusion, but the gamma radiation would shown up. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 18:52:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA02480; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:40:33 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> cc: Vortex Subject: Re: Science ethics (an oxymoron) In-Reply-To: <970415131553_72240.1256_EHB70-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"sDYXX.0.cc.2w2Lp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 15 Apr 1997, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > No, only a handful did. Most started foaming at the mouth and spreading > vicious rumors about Pons and Fleischmann. Many are still at it. > This is not true. I was at The University of Biritish Columbia and TRIUMF at the time. There were 4 experiments started by those 2 institutions alone. All unsuccessful. When I came here to Melbourne I found that there was an attempt at replication here too. I have good friends at the University of Sydney and the Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organization. People at both places tried it without success. There is nothing particularly special about these places. Almost every University with a Physics department remotely qualified tried to replicate. I found this out by talking to people at conferences. These were all rough and ready stab in the dark affairs based on the assumption that all you had to was plunk some Palladium into heavy water and run a current through the system. I personally experienced the thrill of that time. Everyone was keenly interested and hopeful that an enormous breakthrough had been made. > > No, that never happened. That is one of the myths of 1989. Afterwards, people > said "didn't hundreds of people try this?" Yes they did. I will readily admit they were no where near as qualified as P&F but by the same token there was nothing in the P&F paper that explained the difficulties involved. > The fact > is, in 1989, perhaps a hundred groups worldwide made serious efforts to > replicate Pons and Fleischmann. Unfortunately most were physicists who went > looking for neutrons, something you seldom, if ever, find. A small group of > qualified electrochemists ran the experiment, and most of them succeeded. They > later published positive results. > Jed here you admit it. Hundreds did try. Maybe they were doomed to failure but they tried. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 20:06:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA11874; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:48:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: fstenger interlaced.net From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:47:14 +0000 Message-ID: <19970416024712.AAA7405 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"4Mg752.0.Sv2.5u3Lp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank S.: The data that I could dig up on the conductance of aqueous electrolytes specifies that the resistivity of potassium chloride at 75 grams/kg of solution at 25 deg C is about 9 ohm-cm. The resistivity of very dilute HCl at 25 C is about 3 ohm-cm. >From this I figure that a "plug" of solution 0.3 cm long by 0.3 cm diameter will limit out at 90 amperes when the 1150 volts from your capacitor bank is initially applied. But not for long. I might be misleading Robert Eachus on the intent of the experiment. The literature shows that in spark spectroscopy with the required voltage all of the electrons can be stripped from an atom and when they are recaptured the corresponding photons for the different energy levels are emitted. I was banking on some particle acceleration based on the electric field due to, d(phi)/dt but that might take some doing with using the inductance as Robert pointed out. I can't get used to 64 kilojoules (61 btus) doing all of that damage when you consider that this is the energy equivalent of the combustion of 2.5 millipounds of methane, about what one cylinder of a 3 liter engine would take in for one power stroke? However, I will defer to Robert's experience and judgement on this issue. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 21:29:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA24814; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:26:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:26:58 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:26:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704160426.XAA01389 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Science ethics (an oxymoron) Resent-Message-ID: <"Al6Jn3.0.b36.HK5Lp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:40 AM 4/16/97 +1000, Martin wrote about Jed's claim that is wasn't 100's of labs trying the P&F experiment: >This is not true. I was at The University of Biritish Columbia and TRIUMF at >the time. There were 4 experiments started by those 2 institutions alone. etc. We tried it (myself and three other physicist/engineers working on XRF analyzers at the time), and I heard about two or three efforts that were put together down at UT both in the physics dept and in the chem dept. I attended ICCF1 in Santa Fe where there were at least a hundred attendees and scores of them had already performed experiments. It was pretty big, Jed...and it crashed pretty fast, too. We were among the ones that gave up fairly quickly. We tried about 5-6 different experiments over a 4 month period...no sign of excess heat. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 23:00:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA05021; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:55:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:55:24 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970416055532.0066d178 sparc1> X-Sender: kennel sparc1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:55:32 +0900 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Elliot Kennel Subject: Re: Benard Instabilities, Vertical Calorimetry Resent-Message-ID: <"Y108E3.0.NE1.Bd6Lp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mike S, Mitchell and others, I've appreciated your exchange on Benard instabilities and vertical calorimetries (not to mention your tongue-in-cheek humor). However there are a few points I don't quite understand, and perhaps one or both of you can help to clarify them. First, I gather that there can be a problem of this sort in any system in which a low density hot fluid exists under a higher density cooler fluid (i.e., Rayleigh Taylor type instability), and that the onset of significant thrmal buoyancy-induced convective flow depends upon Grashof parameter (L^3 rho^2 g beta DeltaT/mu^2, where L is length, rho is density, beta is coefficient of thermal expansion, delta T is temperature rise, and mu is viscosity) as well as aspect ratio (L/d) of the system, and thus upon parameters such as Prandtl number, surface roughness, and so on. Grashof number would be inserted into an empirical heat transfer correlation to obtain heat transfer rate. I would think that when heat transfer due to Grashof parameter (i.e., natural convection due to thermal buoyancy) is similar to that from heating the working fluid (q = mdot c delta T, where mdot is mass flow rate, c is heat capacity of working fluid), then one would assume that Benard instability is a serious concern. Have I got that right so far? Mike's thought experiment seemed to suggest that a packed bed of spheres would be a good geometry from the standpoint of resisting thermal instabilities. On the other hand, wasn't it true that the larger excess heat fractions (i.e., those obtained at lower power input) vanished immediately when SRI turned the unit on its side to suppress instabilities from vertical flow? That would lead one to think that the geometry was important and that we should consider the types of instabilities that Mitchell has suggested. And indeed, the failure to obtain positive excess heat results in other (non-flowing electrolyte calorimeters) is an event which would cause normal scientists to consider alternative explanations. Moreover, if we look at the Grashof parameter, how would we determine what is really going on in a packed bed of microspheres? Wouldn't there be a very high heat generation surface area to volume ratio in the packed bed, so wouldn't the effective aspect ratio be quite low? I would think that that would (a) be very hard to model, but (b) might result in very variable local flow rates and local heating. Is it obvious what is going to happen in that case? An intuitive understanding of when such instabilities can be ignored in packed bed systems eludes me. Moreover, ought we not be troubled by the failure thus far to get positive excess heat in non-CETI calorimeters? Have I understood (or not understood) the situation correctly? Best regards, Elliot Kennel Sapporo Japan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 04:52:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA01836; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:50:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:50:34 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Hydrogen Bomb (Calorimeter) Cc: fstenger interlaced.net Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:49:58 +0000 Message-ID: <19970416114956.AAA28949 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"UBtBC.0.cS.9qBLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: To get a feel for what 64 Kilojoules (about 61 btus) of energy is about, here is an exercise. The combustion of 0.454 grams of hydrogen will release about 61 btus of energy. A "bomb" calorimeter can be made by pressurizing a heavy-walled steel cylinder 1.4 inches I.D. X 4.00 inches long with oxygen to 375 psia, then topping it off with hydrogen to a pressure of 1,125 psia. A sparkplug screwed into the end opposite the fill end will suffice to detonate the mix. If you have the nerve to stay in the area this can be DETONATED in a bucket of water and the temperture rise of what little water is left in the bucket will tell you how much energy was released. :-) DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME! Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 05:31:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA07989; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: 16 Apr 97 08:27:36 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Benard Instabilities, Vertical Calorimet Message-ID: <970416122736_72240.1256_EHB42-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"i0Fo6.0.Yy1.jOCLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Elliot Kennel writes: On the other hand, wasn't it true that the larger excess heat fractions (i.e., those obtained at lower power input) vanished immediately when SRI turned the unit on its side to suppress instabilities from vertical flow? No, it wasn't. Or at least, if that happened they did not describe it in their final report or any other report I have seen. Where on earth did you hear that one, Elliot? Probably from the same source I heard that the NHE is closing down. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 06:41:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA16815; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:38:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704161338.JAA06404 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (hheffner@corecom.net) Subject: Re: Swartz's question re: stripping energy Resent-Message-ID: <"tPJ0p2.0.b64.hPDLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner (hheffner corecom.net) said: > 2.3 MeV + 2d+ ---> d+ + n + p+ > Which corresponds to a 2.7x10^10 deg. C reaction. It is difficult to > imagine much of a tail in a 50 million deg. plasma to support such a > reaction. I have never seen or heard of stripping from thermal energy, always from accelerated particles. (However astrophysicists assert that it does occur for thermal reasons during a supernova...) > It makes one wonder if there is not a direct mechanism for > producing: > 2d+ ---> t+ + p+ + 3.8 MeV > or maybe: > 2.3 MeV + 2d+ ---> t+ + p+ + 6.1 MeV Quantum mechanics assures us that this is one reason why the t + p and He3 + n pathways are so much more likely than d + d --> He4. One deuteron "borrows" the needed energy from the vacuum to become two particles, and if it is near enough to another deuteron the energetically more favorable reassembly is preferred. (Also d + d --> He4 needs someplace to dump all that energy, and nuclear dissociation is much faster than electromagnetic radiation.) > It is tempting to think such reactions might be responsible for cold > fusion, but the gamma radiation would shown up. Actually, the problem is more that the stripping would normally involve higher Z atoms. If you fire Mev energy range deuterons at a target, you get a lot of stripping. Think of the deuteron as two particles loosely connected by a rope. When the charged proton ricochets off a nucleon, the neutron isn't electromagnetically deflected--it gets pulled by the rope. If the ricochet is energetic enough the rope breaks, and the neutron is headed at or near the nucleus. So if you have high-Z nucleotides with large neutron cross-sections, you can get pretty high reaction rates. The signature of course--other than the low grade Xrays from the activated nucleus--is the presence of protons. As I said, I've haven't seen anyone with a plan to use this for energy production, but I have seen it proposed for nuclear waste disposal, with little or no net energy production. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 08:05:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA25202; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:44:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704161444.KAA06548 spectre.mitre.org> To: fstenger interlaced.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-reply-to: <19970416024712.AAA7405 LOCALNAME> (frederick.sparber@worldnet.att.net) Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"uM2qY.0.i96.BOELp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber (frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net) said: > I might be misleading Robert Eachus on the intent of the experiment. > The literature shows that in spark spectroscopy with the required voltage > all of the electrons can be stripped from an atom and when they are > recaptured the corresponding photons for the different energy levels > are emitted. Not misleading, I was expecting this in a low Z environment, and as you point out, with enough voltage you can strip 92 electrons of Uranium. (But please, don't try that in your garage.) Seriously, if you get to where the doubly oxidized oxygen line (O++) shows up, you are pretty hot. > I can't get used to 64 kilojoules (61 btus) doing all of that damage > when you consider that this is the energy equivalent of the combustion > of 2.5 millipounds of methane, about what one cylinder of a 3 liter > engine would take in for one power stroke? However, I will defer to > Robert's experience and judgement on this issue. :-) I'm not used to working with millipounds, but that sounds like just over one millgram to me. ;-) The problem as your friends in explosives will tell you is how brissiant (sharp) the explosion is. The more brissiant, and the more focused, the more damage you can do. Next time you are watching an auto race and someone "blows" an engine, compute the amount of explosive that did the job. Racing engines, like all internal combustion engines, are designed for a "smooth, slow" burn of the fuel. Detonation--all the fuel burning at once--can eat an engine alive. But occasionally you will get a "perfect" explosive mixture in a cylinder and set it off--usually because the engine is being run rich, there is a backfire, and that causes a leaner mixture to end up in the cylinder. Now detonation can shear head bolts, crack pistons, bend piston rods, break crankshafts, etc. The engine then proceeds to beat itself to death. But the initial explosion, the one that broke the, say, piston rod, contained less fuel than a normal stroke. Oh, back to milligrams. I know someone who broke a steel plate with one milligram of explosive--but the explosive was XeO3. ;-) If you have never experimented with it, Xenon trioxide is one of the most brissiant explosives known, it makes nitroglycerine look like a safe but rather poor explosive. But if you create the pinch you are looking for. I can tell you from experience, when the pinch collapses, it makes XeO3 look tame. (You shouldn't get all of the energy from the capacitors into the pinch, even 10% is a lot. But I have seen pinches with energy in the 80 joule range do minor damage.) The worry of course is that when you get that "perfect pinch" where very little of the energy goes into ionization and heating, you get lots of compression, and it then collapses in a linear fashion. (A bulge that propagates a fractions of of the speed of light pushing ions ahead of it. You can have a microgram of ions travelling in a group at say 0.01 c. The Xrays you get when it hits something--usually the electrode are exciting enough, but you also get shock waves that can do very funny (in the sense of unusual) things. Oh, one last caution. I always disconnected the power supply from the AC line after what once happened to Norm Macbeth. (I was in grade school at the time.) They were testing a high pressure Xenon arc in Beck Engraving in downtown Philadelphia--right near where the Liberty Bell is on display if you care. But the important point is that there was an adjacent Philadelphia Electric substation. The power supply used was a fairly simple LC circut, but with no line isolation. Someone turned the power on, with Norm in position to make measurements and BOOM! and the lights went out. The quartz bulb didn't explode, it was literally vaporized. Norm's clothes were cut to shreds, and the wall had to be sanded and painted--the quartz droplets solidified as they hit the wall, and left spikes standing up. About ten years later we asked the right questions, and figured it all out. The power substation had a capacitance bank directly across the 220 feed to Beck (and other places) for power factor correction, and if you hit it just wrong the circut could create a pinch in the--relatively cold--Xenon. That pinch exhibited negative resistance. Until you have done the experiments, and measured the effect, you won't believe it, but you really can extract power from a pinch. It is not free, you have to put it in, but that is what part of this discussion is about: the amount of energy you can store in a pinch. We figure that everything survived the initial pinch, but remember that the LC circut of the power supply is causing a phase shift. When the current through the pinch reversed it could discharge the capacitor bank in the substation. A several hundred kilojoules went into a tube rated at one kilowatt. Norm survived "without a scratch," but we figure the radiation dose caused some of his later cancers. Hmmm. A few of you may balk at reversing the current through the pinch. It is really shorthand for: the (magnetic pinch) created a solid or higher density thread of ionized matter through the center of the tube. If you reverse the current very quickly. You can repinch the thread before it gets too big for the self compression to hold compress it again. If you do this "right" the energy you put in with the current flowing one direction, can be extracted while the current is flowing the opposite direction. In fact, I've held pinches with microwave frequency AC--but the pinch becomes part of your resonant circut. (What about all that fusion literature about how unstable pinches are? The trick is to use a wall to stabilize the pinch. The fusion crowd had this silly idea that such a wall would vaporize quickly if they ever succeeded. ;-) The trick is to use a wall that doesn't absorb much energy, radiates what it does absorb as infrared--and up into orange at times--and cool the wall as much as you can from the outside. All that says quartz... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 09:10:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA08393; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:00:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:58:47 +0000 Message-ID: <19970416155845.AAA18329 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"BLgJU.0.232.5UFLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:44 PM 4/16/97 +0000, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > Frederick J. Sparber (frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net) said: > > > I might be misleading Robert Eachus on the intent of the experiment. > > The literature shows that in spark spectroscopy with the required voltage > > all of the electrons can be stripped from an atom and when they are > > recaptured the corresponding photons for the different energy levels > > are emitted. > > Not misleading, I was expecting this in a low Z environment, and as >you point out, with enough voltage you can strip 92 electrons of >Uranium. (But please, don't try that in your garage.) Seriously, if >you get to where the doubly oxidized oxygen line (O++) shows up, you >are pretty hot. > > > I can't get used to 64 kilojoules (61 btus) doing all of that damage > > when you consider that this is the energy equivalent of the combustion > > of 2.5 millipounds of methane, about what one cylinder of a 3 liter > > engine would take in for one power stroke? However, I will defer to > > Robert's experience and judgement on this issue. :-) > > I'm not used to working with millipounds, but that sounds like just >over one millgram to me. ;-) The problem as your friends in >explosives will tell you is how brissiant (sharp) the explosion is. >The more brissiant, and the more focused, the more damage you can do. >Next time you are watching an auto race and someone "blows" an engine, >compute the amount of explosive that did the job. > > Racing engines, like all internal combustion engines, are designed >for a "smooth, slow" burn of the fuel. Detonation--all the fuel >burning at once--can eat an engine alive. But occasionally you will >get a "perfect" explosive mixture in a cylinder and set it >off--usually because the engine is being run rich, there is a >backfire, and that causes a leaner mixture to end up in the cylinder. >Now detonation can shear head bolts, crack pistons, bend piston rods, >break crankshafts, etc. The engine then proceeds to beat itself to >death. But the initial explosion, the one that broke the, say, piston >rod, contained less fuel than a normal stroke. > > Oh, back to milligrams. I know someone who broke a steel plate >with one milligram of explosive--but the explosive was XeO3. ;-) If >you have never experimented with it, Xenon trioxide is one of the most >brissiant explosives known, it makes nitroglycerine look like a safe >but rather poor explosive. But if you create the pinch you are >looking for. I can tell you from experience, when the pinch collapses, >it makes XeO3 look tame. (You shouldn't get all of the energy from >the capacitors into the pinch, even 10% is a lot. But I have seen >pinches with energy in the 80 joule range do minor damage.) The worry >of course is that when you get that "perfect pinch" where very little >of the energy goes into ionization and heating, you get lots of >compression, and it then collapses in a linear fashion. (A bulge that >propagates a fractions of of the speed of light pushing ions ahead of >it. You can have a microgram of ions travelling in a group at say >0.01 c. The Xrays you get when it hits something--usually the >electrode are exciting enough, but you also get shock waves that can >do very funny (in the sense of unusual) things. > > Oh, one last caution. I always disconnected the power supply from >the AC line after what once happened to Norm Macbeth. (I was in grade >school at the time.) They were testing a high pressure Xenon arc in >Beck Engraving in downtown Philadelphia--right near where the Liberty >Bell is on display if you care. But the important point is that there >was an adjacent Philadelphia Electric substation. The power supply >used was a fairly simple LC circut, but with no line isolation. > > Someone turned the power on, with Norm in position to make >measurements and BOOM! and the lights went out. The quartz bulb >didn't explode, it was literally vaporized. Norm's clothes were cut >to shreds, and the wall had to be sanded and painted--the quartz >droplets solidified as they hit the wall, and left spikes standing up. > > About ten years later we asked the right questions, and figured it >all out. The power substation had a capacitance bank directly across >the 220 feed to Beck (and other places) for power factor correction, >and if you hit it just wrong the circut could create a pinch in >the--relatively cold--Xenon. That pinch exhibited negative >resistance. Until you have done the experiments, and measured the >effect, you won't believe it, but you really can extract power from a >pinch. It is not free, you have to put it in, but that is what part >of this discussion is about: the amount of energy you can store in a >pinch. We figure that everything survived the initial pinch, but >remember that the LC circut of the power supply is causing a phase >shift. When the current through the pinch reversed it could discharge >the capacitor bank in the substation. A several hundred kilojoules >went into a tube rated at one kilowatt. > > Norm survived "without a scratch," but we figure the radiation >dose caused some of his later cancers. > > Hmmm. A few of you may balk at reversing the current through the >pinch. It is really shorthand for: the (magnetic pinch) created a >solid or higher density thread of ionized matter through the center of >the tube. If you reverse the current very quickly. You can repinch >the thread before it gets too big for the self compression to hold >compress it again. If you do this "right" the energy you put in with >the current flowing one direction, can be extracted while the current >is flowing the opposite direction. In fact, I've held pinches with >microwave frequency AC--but the pinch becomes part of your resonant >circut. (What about all that fusion literature about how unstable >pinches are? The trick is to use a wall to stabilize the pinch. The >fusion crowd had this silly idea that such a wall would vaporize >quickly if they ever succeeded. ;-) The trick is to use a wall that >doesn't absorb much energy, radiates what it does absorb as >infrared--and up into orange at times--and cool the wall as much as >you can from the outside. All that says quartz... > > I couldn't find a word in any of this very informative treatise that I could edit for a response,thank you very much,Robert. This is science as it should be. I was in Philadelphia two years ago with my nine-year-old grandson. We visited the Liberty Bell and Ben Franklin's gravesite, etc. However, I wasn't aware of this third "Philadelphia Experiment" that you describe. :-) I think my grandson was most impressed by a machine that a street vendor had that for $1.00 squished your penny into a commemorative coin! A budding plasma physicist,perhaps? Best Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 11:10:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA22738; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <335512B5.7BE interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:56:05 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment References: <19970416155845.AAA18329 LOCALNAME> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oXlMn1.0.6Z5.cBHLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > (about Robert E's words of "pinch" wisdom) > I couldn't find a word in any of this very informative treatise > that I could edit for a response,thank you very much,Robert. This > is science as it should be. > Yes indeed, Frederick. If Robert keeps posting, I'm gonna run out of printer ink! OK, check me on this. In my notes from somewhere I have: dynamite = 1.290 Kg-cal per gram = 5400 joules per gram So, my 60,000 joule capacitor energy >>>>> 11.11 grams of dynamite. I have Gunpowder (what kind?) = 0.75 Kg-cal per gram = 3140 joules per gram. Now I think a 12-gage shotgun load is about 20 grains of powder. 20 grains X (1 lb/7000 grains) X (453.6 grams/lb) = 1.296 grams. 1.296 grams gp X 3140 joules/gm = 4069 joules per 12-gage load. So 60,000 joules = about 14.75 12-gage loads - WOW is this right? Maybe it's a good thing my bank does discharge "slowly"! I had been thinking 7 or 8 12-gage loads. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 11:14:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA05663; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:12:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:12:28 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:14:31 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"ImwN42.0.JO1.9QHLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Eachus wrote lots of good things. However, I am not sure that he always distinguishes correctly among various "pinches", which can lead to some confusion. Let me try to clarify. "Pinch" or "magnetic pinch" denotes a system wherein the the pressure of a conducting fluid (plasma or liquid conductor) is confined in large part by the magnetic field generated by electric current flowing through the fluid itself. Stated another way, the self magnetic forces dominate all other forces. Simple magnetic pinches are very unstable. The pinch column bends into a rapidly expanding helical or "kink" geometry. However, this can be stabilized by a nearby electrically conducting wall. The pinch column also pinches unevenly, pinching more strongly at some places than the other. This is not a matter of engineering precision; it is a true instability. It necks the pinch column down at these places like a sausage (hence the common name, "sausage instability") until the pinch actually breaks apart into disconnected pieces. This final phase is accompanied by large, rapid rearrangements of magnetic flux and very large, but brief, emfs. The sausage instability can only be stabilized under some very restrictive conditions that cannot be obtained in most practical systems. Wall stabilization is ineffective on sausages. The wall stabilized "pinches" Robert cites are a different phenomenon altogether. I do not know if they are properly called "pinches" or not. In my "world" of controlled fusion and hot plasmas, they are not pinches, but wall stabilized discharges. Semantics aside, these discharges are not principally confined by their own magnetic forces. They are wall stabilized by thermal conduction: if a part of the plasma moves toward the wall, more heat flows out of the plasma and to the wall, which cools the displaced plasma some, reducing its electrical conductivity and the consequent plasma heating and ionization locally. Essentially, the displaced plasma gets quenched. However, this phenomenon works only if thermal conductivity is large. It disappears when the magnetic field becomes strong enough to reduce the thermal conductivity and confine the plasma (the two are effectively synonymous). This kind of plasma and wall stabilization is useless for thermonuclear fusion, which needs ~10 keV temperatures, which is possible only if there is very good thermal confinement. However, wall stabilized discharges have commercial application in some plasma welding torches and especially in plasma spray torches (that entrain refractory powder in the torch gas stream, melt it as it passes through a plasma arc, and deposit it as a tough refractory coating on a workpiece). Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 11:26:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA07793; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:20:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:20:57 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970416141824_-1134279801 emout09.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: fepps mail1.halcyon.com Subject: About Parametric power conversion Resent-Message-ID: <"SDfkv2.0.dv1.8YHLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all, You will find in my web site a very interesting document about the main principle of "Parametric power conversion". ( Thanks to Fred Epps....). The direct link is : http://members.aol.com/overunity/html/paraconv.htm Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509@aol.com my Overunity WEB Server< /A> : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm WWPager, UIN: 747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 12:58:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA26523; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:51:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:51:20 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:50:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704161950.PAA07576 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (Schaffer@gav.gat.com) Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"Jqihj2.0.LU6.tsILp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Robert Eachus wrote lots of good things. However, I am not sure that he > always distinguishes correctly among various "pinches", which can lead to > some confusion. Let me try to clarify. Quite right. I realized on the last posting that I was playing a little loose with the term, since technically the magnetic pinch as such cannot hold energy as the field goes through zero. > "Pinch" or "magnetic pinch" denotes a system wherein the the > pressure of a conducting fluid (plasma or liquid conductor) is > confined in large part by the magnetic field generated by electric > current flowing through the fluid itself. Stated another way, the > self magnetic forces dominate all other forces. Agreed. (Nope! Reread it, before sending. To get a good stable pinch you need the energy in the electric and magnetic fields to be of the same order of magnitude. So, dominate, but not by too much. :-) > Simple magnetic pinches are very unstable. The pinch column bends > into a rapidly expanding helical or "kink" geometry. I'd word it a bit differently, but yes. Any deviation from a straight line amplifies itself. And part of the rewording would be that it requires lots of work and Zen-like understanding to create a (meta-)stable pinch. > However, this can be stabilized by a nearby electrically > conducting wall. Ah, yes, first trick. The wall need not be conducting. As long as you have a non-current carrying plasma outside the pinch, it works. Basically the pinch can't push the plasma through the non-conducting wall, so these ions act like a wall held in place by the real wall. Again, outside the magnetic confinement hot fusion community, you can have a wall-stabilized arc with a pinch in the middle and ion temperature gradients measured in thousands of degrees Kelvin per millimeter. (In magnetic confinement fusion, the ions spiral around lines of magnetic force, which creates lots of mixing.) > The pinch column also pinches unevenly, pinching more strongly at > some places than the other. This is not a matter of engineering > precision; it is a true instability. It necks the pinch column > down at these places like a sausage (hence the common name, > "sausage instability") until the pinch actually breaks apart into > disconnected pieces. Yep, but in a tokamak you need the induced emf to be strong enough to overcome this. In pinch machines, as long as the emf is high enough, you don't see this problem. You need about 20 Kilovolts per meter to suppress it (better expressed as 200 volts/cm), and a power supply that is sufficently reactive. For those of you out there not EEs, reactive there is spelled inductance and lots of it. Simple rule of thumb, you need to be able to store as much energy in the inductance as in the capacitor bank, and that is the amount of energy you can stably store in the pinch. See previous posts on how to get a lot of inductance in the circut and still have a fast rise time to form the pinch. > This final phase is accompanied by large, rapid rearrangements of > magnetic flux and very large, but brief, emfs. The sausage > instability can only be stabilized under some very restrictive > conditions that cannot be obtained in most practical systems. Depends on your definition of practical system. (Incidently it is possible to design a magnetic mirror machine with enough potential gradient away from the ends to supress sausages. But you need a beam down the center.) > Wall stabilization is ineffective on sausages. True. However, wall stabilization helps a lot with kink instabilities. > The wall stabilized "pinches" Robert cites are a different > phenomenon altogether. I do not know if they are properly called > "pinches" or not. In my "world" of controlled fusion and hot > plasmas, they are not pinches, but wall stabilized discharges. Nope different animal. Both can occur in the same apparatus, but I was telling Frank how to avoid that domain. If your current pulse rise-time is too low, you won't get a pinch. (I'll refrain from taking pot-shots at modern tokamaks here, since they deliberately avoid pinches.) > Semantics aside, these discharges are not principally confined by > their own magnetic forces. True and irrelevant here. The thing you want when creating a pinch is to separate the plasma from the wall. Once you do that you get a system like: ========================================= Wall . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Un-ionized gas + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Plasma sheath ----------------------------------------- Pinch + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Plasma sheath . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Un-ionized gas ========================================= Wall I have gotten as many as five nested shells with little or no convection mixing between them. (Distinguished by different ionization levels.) > This kind of plasma and wall stabilization is useless for > thermonuclear fusion, which needs ~10 keV temperatures, which is > possible only if there is very good thermal confinement. True and irrelevant, since for fusion you want pinch conditions not discharge. Incidently, when computing the physics of "ordinary" pulsed Xenon arc lamps I was surprised to discover that the core temperatures were several electron volts. (None of this shows directly in the light emitted because that all comes from the plasma sheath as light from the pinch is absorbed and reradiated. The sheath is effectively opaque at IR and higher wavelengths.) Nowhere near (well three orders of magnitude) away from what is required for hot fusion, but about as close as the tokamak crowd was getting at the time. Incidently, similarities between what I am saying here and the Plasmak and Spheromak confinement schemes are entirely non-coincidental. The pressure from the surrounding gas does help compress the pinch, and to keep it stable. Remember, I was successfully trying to keep the highly ionized gasses in the core of the pinch in place while the electric and magnetic fields reversed--sixty times a second. (And notice the really tricky cheat here. I couldn't keep a single pinch stable indefinitely, but swapping ends on the voltage, each pinch would be replaced by another before kink instablities became critical.) We even experimented with tubes that were designed to hold the un-ionized gases in place and minimize convection to get the pinch temperature up. (If the core temperature is higher, you get less IR emission. Worked, but the gain wasn't worth the reduced tube life and higher cost.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 14:12:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA11196; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:01:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:01:04 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: fstenger interlaced.net From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:59:48 +0000 Message-ID: <19970416205942.AAA27036 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"pltEy2.0.ok2.EuJLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:56 PM 4/16/97 +0000, Frank Stenger wrote: > >OK, check me on this. In my notes from somewhere I have: > > dynamite = 1.290 Kg-cal per gram > = 5400 joules per gram > >So, my 60,000 joule capacitor energy >>>>> 11.11 grams of dynamite. > >I have Gunpowder (what kind?) = 0.75 Kg-cal per gram > = 3140 joules per gram. At 0.737 Ft-Lbs/joule you're talking about the same as a 30-06, about 2,314 Ft-lbs of kinetic energy given to a 150 grain (9.7gram) bullet. :-) > >Now I think a 12-gage shotgun load is about 20 grains of powder. > > 20 grains X (1 lb/7000 grains) X (453.6 grams/lb) = 1.296 grams. > > 1.296 grams gp X 3140 joules/gm = 4069 joules per 12-gage load. > >So 60,000 joules = about 14.75 12-gage loads - WOW is this right? Not bad huh? About 44,220 Ft-lbs. Up the voltage by a factor of 10 and you will be able to launch a kilogram to escape velocity from Earth! > >Maybe it's a good thing my bank does discharge "slowly"! >I had been thinking 7 or 8 12-gage loads. > >Frank Stenger > Money in the "Bank"? Would you be interested in a Lab Retriever? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 14:43:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA17711; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:37:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:37:19 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:41:47 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Swartz's question re: stripping energy Resent-Message-ID: <"rfa071.0.fK4.DQKLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:38 AM 4/16/97, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > Horace Heffner (hheffner corecom.net) said: > > > 2.3 MeV + 2d+ ---> d+ + n + p+ > > > Which corresponds to a 2.7x10^10 deg. C reaction. It is difficult to > > imagine much of a tail in a 50 million deg. plasma to support such a > > reaction. > > I have never seen or heard of stripping from thermal energy, always >from accelerated particles. (However astrophysicists assert that it >does occur for thermal reasons during a supernova...) > [snip] At 10:32 AM 4/14/97, Robert I. Eachus wrote: [snip] >I seem to >remember that the Stellerator at Princeton was good at producing this >effect. The reason I mentioned thermal energy is the Stellerator is an ohmic heated magnetic confinement device. Maybe you are thinking of one of the pinch program devices, like the Triaxial device, which produced a lot of neutrons? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 14:43:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA17975; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:39:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:39:59 -0700 Date: 16 Apr 97 17:37:09 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: CETI / Dumb quote from Gore Message-ID: <970416213709_72240.1256_EHB116-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Q1_pi1.0.jO4.kSKLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Hal Puthoff asked me what are the approximate o-u ratios and power levels of the latest big CETI cells. Sorry, but my information is sketchy. As usual they are keeping things mostly secret. Power is back at the kilowatt level. Input versus output is not as high as it was, but it is difficult to measure because they are using two fluid loops: electrolyte through the cell and cooling water through the electrolyte. On a completely different subject, here is a stupid quote from our very own Vice President Gore: ". . . the Apollo program led to important advances in . . . a wide variety of technologies. Indeed, the entire modern computer industry was born as a spinoff of efforts first made in trying to land a man on the moon." Good grief! No, Mr. Veep, it was a spinoff of efforts to aim artillery and efforts to switch telephone calls. The space program accelerated LSI technology, but not by much. It would surely have happened anyway, because even in the '60s the market for LSI and VLSI products was larger than the Apollo program. That quote is from "Earth in the Balance" which I am forcing myself to read. It is painful. I cringe at every page. Mind you, I hate pollution, extinction, lost topsoil, looming global warming and all the rest of it as much as Al does. I concede nothing in the empathy department. But Al doesn't understand Thing One about technology. He does not have a clue as to how these problems might actually be fixed, whereas I do. Hint: whining, moaning, making a moral issue out of a technical problem, and trying to get people to change their lifestyles to avoid threats they don't believe in . . . will not work. That's futile. Take a lesson from Franklin Roosevelt. Political leaders must be pragmatic, realistic and optimistic. Gloom & doom will get you nowhere. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 14:56:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA01208; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:37:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:37:38 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:39:45 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Benard Instabilities, Vertical Calorimetry Resent-Message-ID: <"jLD-G3.0.kI.XvGLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Elliot Kennel wrote: > I've appreciated your exchange on Benard instabilities and vertical >calorimetries [snip] >system in which a low density hot fluid exists under a higher density cooler >fluid (i.e., Rayleigh Taylor type instability), and that the onset of >significant thrmal buoyancy-induced convective flow depends upon Grashof >parameter (L^3 rho^2 g beta DeltaT/mu^2, where L is length, rho is density, >beta is coefficient of thermal expansion, delta T is temperature rise, and >mu is viscosity) as well as aspect ratio (L/d) of the system, and thus upon Close, Elliot. The Benard instability depends on the Grahof number, plus the thermal conductivity---because a high thermal conductivity can short circuit the temperature gradient across a cell and reduce convection. In fact, both the Benard instability onset threshold and the heat transfer rate of Benard convection depend only on one dimensionless number, the Rayleigh number, Ra = L^3 rho g beta DeltaT/mu kappa, where kappa is thermal conductivity. To be specific, when the vertical distance between top and bottom of a cylindrical volume is much smaller than its radius, convection starts when Ra (calculated then with L = cylinder's height) exceeds about 1700. (This is the classical Benard geometry. As the height-to-radius ratio increases, the critical Ra for onset of the instability increases. >parameters such as Prandtl number, surface roughness, and so on. Grashof >number would be inserted into an empirical heat transfer correlation to >obtain heat transfer rate. I would think that when heat transfer due to >Grashof parameter (i.e., natural convection due to thermal buoyancy) is >similar to that from heating the working fluid (q = mdot c delta T, where >mdot is mass flow rate, c is heat capacity of working fluid), then one would >assume that Benard instability is a serious concern. Have I got that right >so far? Yes, except use Rayleigh number. > Moreover, if we look at the Grashof parameter, how would we >determine what is really going on in a packed bed of microspheres? [snip] To the extent that the bead bed can be approximated as an idealized porus medium with both viscous and thermal conduction, the thermalhydraulic equations can be written down. I don't know if this problem has been done quantitatively or not. I don't know if an analytic solution is possible or not. Certainly, it would be possible to solve the equations numerically on a computer, and then one could also explore the issue of nonuniform heat release, too. However, off the top of my head, I'm not sure how to include the effects of the electrolysis gas bubbles, since their motion is tied up with surface tension in the bed interstices. Of course, I still maintain that, in Patterson cells, none of this precludes good calorimetry; one simply has to ensure that the fluid is well mixed at the point(s) of temperature measurement. > Have I understood (or not understood) the situation correctly? Yes, I think you have. Thermal convection is potentially a problem in static CF cells, too. Heat is released nonuniformly in the cell, which drives thermal convection cells. Where should one put the thermometer(s)? A Seebeck calorimeter approach solves the problem by putting thermocouple pairs (almost) everywhere around the boundary of the cell, so as to measure all thermal power exiting the cell. More commonly, CF people rely on the strong mixing by the vigorous electrolysis bubbling to destroy thermal gradients. One should, of course, verify that this is true in each case by measuring the temperature distribution in the cell under operating conditions. I would be most worried about those static CF cells that operate at low current densities, which have much less bubble stirring than the typical PF cells. In particular, light water-Ni cells usually operate at low current. They also are reported to yield their greatest percentage of excess power at very low current densities. The temperature measurements (and also gas recombination, which is significant at low current densities, but that is a different topic) have to be THOROUGHLY verified under such conditions. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 15:00:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA21270; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:53:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:53:09 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:52:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704162152.RAA07921 spectre.mitre.org> To: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) CC: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (hheffner@corecom.net) Subject: Re: Swartz's question re: stripping energy Resent-Message-ID: <"DhR5P2.0.GC5.4fKLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner (hheffner corecom.net)) said: > The reason I mentioned thermal energy is the Stellerator is an > ohmic heated magnetic confinement device. Is? Was? Anyway... > Maybe you are thinking of one of the pinch program devices, like > the Triaxial device, which produced a lot of neutrons? Triaxial worked, or at least they were on the right track. Multiple pinches all on the same material and axis. But no, I meant the Stellerator. (At least it was one of the Princeton pre-TFTR toys.) There was a parasitic edge effect which produced "hot" particles by straight electric field acceleration. It apparently took a lot of convincing to show that it was producing MeV energy particles--since the acceleration was occuring over about a foot. In the meantime they were going crazy. When confinement when up, the neutrons went down and vice-versa. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 15:22:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA29898; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:19:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:19:13 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:21:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: CETI / Dumb quote from Gore Resent-Message-ID: <"sM_a63.0.3J7.W1LLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --snip--- >That's futile. Take a lesson from Franklin Roosevelt. Political leaders must >be pragmatic, realistic and optimistic. Gloom & doom will get you nowhere. Roosevelt had his New Deal, Hitler had his New Order, and Mussolini is said to have "made the trains run on time" --- one could claim that coercion does have a way of getting things done....one way or the other. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 15:38:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA32032; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:28:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:28:50 -0700 Message-ID: <335552C5.565A interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:29:25 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: THANKS ROBERT & MIKE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"P6d292.0.Qq7.XALLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks to Robert Eachus and Michael Schaffer for the plasma insights! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 15:54:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA02099; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:48:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:48:18 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970416224631.00681190 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:46:31 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Vertical Calorimetry - Rayleigh number Resent-Message-ID: <"QdwOv1.0.iW.nSLLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:39 AM 4/16/97 -0800, Michael J. Schaffer wrote: >Elliot Kennel wrote: > >> I've appreciated your exchange on Benard instabilities and vertical >>calorimetries >[snip] >>system in which a low density hot fluid exists under a higher density cooler >>fluid (i.e., Rayleigh Taylor type instability), and that the onset of >>significant thrmal buoyancy-induced convective flow depends upon Grashof >>parameter (L^3 rho^2 g beta DeltaT/mu^2, where L is length, rho is density, >>beta is coefficient of thermal expansion, delta T is temperature rise, and >>mu is viscosity) as well as aspect ratio (L/d) of the system, and thus upon > >Close, Elliot. The Benard instability depends on the Grahof number, plus >the thermal conductivity---because a high thermal conductivity can short >circuit the temperature gradient across a cell and reduce convection. In >fact, both the Benard instability onset threshold and the heat transfer >rate of Benard convection depend only on one dimensionless number, the >Rayleigh number, Ra = L^3 rho g beta DeltaT/mu kappa, where kappa is >thermal conductivity. Michael: Almost. The Rayleigh number has rho to the second power, and a term for specific heat is missing too, methinks. Is that correct? Elliot is correct that it is the spelled Grashof parameter (although there are three involved), and I believe it is the Bernard instability. ======================================== > To be specific, when the vertical distance between >top and bottom of a cylindrical volume is much smaller than its radius, >convection starts when Ra (calculated then with L = cylinder's height) >exceeds about 1700. (This is the classical Benard geometry. As the >height-to-radius ratio increases, the critical Ra for onset of the >instability increases. The convection also has electrophoretic, electrostatic, dielectrophoretic, and probably other components as well, which may lead to effective convection based on their impact. ======================================== >Thermal convection is potentially a problem in static CF cells, too. Heat >is released nonuniformly in the cell, which drives thermal convection >cells. Where should one put the thermometer(s)? A Seebeck calorimeter >approach solves the problem by putting thermocouple pairs (almost) >everywhere around the boundary of the cell, so as to measure all thermal >power exiting the cell. It does not. That averages over the volume subtended, and eliminates fine structure in time. We measure both anode and cathode temperature and often up to six additional sites within the system. That does not include other probes in surrounding rings, or on the computer board to correct for the CJC of course. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 15:56:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA02388; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:49:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:49:25 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970416224739.0068c438 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:47:39 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Riddle of the Day proving impact of Vertical Calorimetry Resent-Message-ID: <"tH_d-3.0.Ab.qTLLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Why dont the packed bed folks using the vertical calorimetric systems put the return water going in from the top and down? Hypothesis 1 - because the ** descending ** vertical calorimetry may decrease the XSH (if any) under similar conditions as discussed previously. Q.E.D. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 16:04:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA08528; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970416224556.0068d710 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:45:56 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Vertical Calorimetry - Grashof and Prandtl numbers Resent-Message-ID: <"C-lFj.0.852.YSLLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:55 PM 4/16/97 +0900, Elliot wrote: > First, I gather that there can be a problem of this sort in any >system in which a low density hot fluid exists under a higher density cooler >fluid (i.e., Rayleigh Taylor type instability), and that the onset of >significant thrmal buoyancy-induced convective flow depends upon Grashof >parameter (L^3 rho^2 g beta DeltaT/mu^2, where L is length, rho is density, >beta is coefficient of thermal expansion, delta T is temperature rise, and >mu is viscosity) as well as aspect ratio (L/d) of the system, and thus upon >parameters such as Prandtl number, surface roughness, and so on. Grashof >number would be inserted into an empirical heat transfer correlation to >obtain heat transfer rate. I would think that when heat transfer due to >Grashof parameter (i.e., natural convection due to thermal buoyancy) is >similar to that from heating the working fluid (q = mdot c delta T, where >mdot is mass flow rate, c is heat capacity of working fluid), then one would >assume that Benard instability is a serious concern. Have I got that right >so far? Elliot: The Bernard instability occurs with characteristic wavelength (Rayleigh Taylor wavelength). Dont forget surface tension and the applied electric and magnetic fields to your good list; all handleable through the Maxwell stress tensor and convective derivative. The definitions of L, d given the non-good geometry need be discussed further since the area, and other terms, may be a function of the vertical parameter, y. The beads and their cylindrical containment are one boundary condition. Also, in the Grashof number, beta is the volumetric coefficient of thermal expansion. There are three Prandtl numbers (heat transfer, mass transfer, and velocity ratio) which may contribute. Finally, as to your condition where thermal buoyant flow is similar to force flow (slightly different from the way you wrote it since you are discussion thermal diffusive heat flow)), at that point they are equal and the amplification would seem to be ~2 or so. Serious concern might arise earlier. If you consider yous numbers to be accurate to about 3-7%, then notice that that level of interference occurs earlier. What do you think? Is a 100% amplification significant? or less? ======================================================== > Mike's thought experiment seemed to suggest that a packed bed of >spheres would be a good geometry from the standpoint of resisting thermal >instabilities. On the other hand, wasn't it true that the larger excess >heat fractions (i.e., those obtained at lower power input) vanished >immediately when SRI turned the unit on its side to suppress instabilities >from vertical flow? That would lead one to think that the geometry was >important and that we should consider the types of instabilities that >Mitchell has suggested. And indeed, the failure to obtain positive excess >heat results in other (non-flowing electrolyte calorimeters) is an event >which would cause normal scientists to consider alternative explanations. > Moreover, if we look at the Grashof parameter, how would we >determine what is really going on in a packed bed of microspheres? Wouldn't >there be a very high heat generation surface area to volume ratio in the >packed bed, so wouldn't the effective aspect ratio be quite low? I would >think that that would (a) be very hard to model, but (b) might result in >very variable local flow rates and local heating. Is it obvious what >is going to happen in that case? An intuitive understanding of when such >instabilities can be ignored in packed bed systems eludes me. Moreover, >ought we not be troubled by the failure thus far to get positive excess heat >in non-CETI calorimeters? You might be right over the range of the beads which subtend a small percentage between the two spatially separated temperature probes. It as if there is that small region between two much longer regions which will succumb to Bernard instability. Do you agree? In the CETI picture associated with Dennis Cravens paper that is a ration between the three compartments (starting at the top) of 15:29:47 which is about 1:2:3. The middle compartmental number represents the ratio of the length of the beads to the volume above the beads and before the upper temperature probe, and below the beads to the inferior (input in ascending vertical calorimetry) probe. Do you agree with those measurements. In some of the pictures, the middle compartment seems to be thinner. Best wishes, Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 17:41:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA25624; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <33556F9E.3418 math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:32:30 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Science ethics (an oxymoron) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2roHJ1.0.HG6.h_MLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin Sevior wrote: > > On 15 Apr 1997, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > > > No, only a handful did. Most started foaming at the mouth > > and spreading > > vicious rumors about Pons and Fleischmann. Many are still at it. > > > > This is not true. I was at The University of Biritish Columbia > and TRIUMF at the time. There were 4 experiments started by > those 2 institutions alone.... Martin is correct. I suspect that when P&F made their announcement in 1989, Jed had never even hear the words cold fusion, and was off concentrating on whatever it was he did before his current incarnation as CF advocate. Jed: take it from those of us who were actually there, in miscellaneous physics departments, or already in contact with fusion researchers *right at the time*. The basic attitude was: Wow, this must be true. Lets replicate it. This was only a year after the Hi temp superconductors were discovered. All physicists were prepared to accept another miracle, and all chemists were rooting for chemists to make a fundamental physics discovery. The only fellow I talked to who was strongly down on the idea was an expert in Pd-H systems, and basically his point was that he'd studied such systems for 20 years and never seen neutrons or gamma rays or non-understood heat realeases. The idea that the scientific community was down on CF from the start is simply false. I was at Univ. of Chicago, and then UCLA right around the time, as well as talking to folks at ever major fusion research university (since I was looking for a job right at the time). There was enormous interest, and the mood was overwhelmingly biased toward P&F among the avergae scientists and even the average fusion scientists. What killed is was a general lack of replicability, plus the major publicized efforts (Harwell, MIT, Cal Tech)"failings", plus the errors in P&F own work (no gammas, no neutrons), plus P&F subsequent reclusiveness (no matter whether it was justifiable). Of course, I don't doubt that if you talk to proponents of the time, they will say they encountered tremendous resistance. But that is because they were *not sampling the average response*. Instead, they are obviously a magnet for those who want to counter their claims, so from their perspective I'm sure it looked worse than it really was. As for the title of this thread: I will put the average ethics of scientists up against that of any other profession, clergy included. Scientists as a group are not perfect, but show me a profession that has a higer level of ethical conduct or a better mechanism for policing its own conduct. Business? Ha! -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 18:15:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA29590; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:12:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:12:20 -0700 Message-Id: <199704170112.SAA29549 mx1.eskimo.com> From: Ron McFee Subject: Scientists and Ethics To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 19:12:26 MDT Cc: mcfee lanl.gov, mcfee@concentric.net Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Resent-Message-ID: <"ztxV5.0.GE7.pZNLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:26:49 -0500 (CDT) >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >From: Scott Little >Subject: Re: Science ethics (an oxymoron) > >At 11:40 AM 4/16/97 +1000, Martin wrote about Jed's claim that is wasn't >100's of labs trying the P&F experiment: > >>This is not true. I was at The University of Biritish Columbia and TRIUMF at >>the time. There were 4 experiments started by those 2 institutions alone. > >etc. > >We tried it (myself and three other physicist/engineers working on XRF >analyzers at the time), and I heard about two or three efforts that were put >together down at UT both in the physics dept and in the chem dept. > >I attended ICCF1 in Santa Fe where there were at least a hundred attendees >and scores of them had already performed experiments. > >It was pretty big, Jed...and it crashed pretty fast, too. We were among the >ones that gave up fairly quickly. We tried about 5-6 different experiments >over a 4 month period...no sign of excess heat. > > > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little Actually the meeting that Scott went to in Santa Fe must have been the the "Workshop on Cold Fusion Phenomena" May 23-25, 1989. This was sponsored by Los Alamos National Laboratory and the U. S. Department of Energy. I think that the attendance was probably between 200 to 400 people. It was definitely I think an internationally diverse group of Americans, Canadians, Europeans, and Asians. There were no Russians, but at least eight officially supported scientists from the Peoples' Republic of China were there. In general the participants were divided into roughly equal groups of "true believers" and "very true disbelievers" as well as those willing to suspend judgement until good scientific evidence was presented. Unfortunately most of the people in the later group of agnostics, at least those that are still alive, are still waiting. (I personally consider myself somewhere between the "true believers" and the agnostics although most of my friends probably consider me to be a nut case "true believer.") "The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion" was held March 28-31, 1990 at the University Park Hotel in Salt Lake City, Utah. At this meeting which was sponsored by the State of Utah's National Cold Fusion Institute there were 40 speakers and over 200 attendees. Although this was an open meeting, it was not advertised too openly. People who reported positive results were definitely invited. Debunkers were not. Although a few managed to find out about it. I myself only learned from an oblique reference in one of Jerry Bishop's Wall Street Journal articles. It was actually amusing to see the debunkers on the defensive for a change. In my opinion the vast majority of scientists gave Cold Fusion a sporting chance in the year March 23, 1989 to March, 1990. Many put in a good deal of hard work and overtime. The real scoundrels in the drama in my opinion were Pons and Fleischmann who played their cute little game and not fully disclosed their work. Frankly if there ever are any valuable patents awarded in this business, I think that they should only go to people and organizations that have made diligent efforts in reducing their inventions to practice. And this can only be proven by public demonstration. Anything less is BS. In March of 1990 I thought that Pons and Fleischmann would win Nobel Prizes and make millions of dollars. Today, Pons may still get a Nobel Prize several years from now although I don't think that Fleischmann will live that long. Of the 300 trillion dollars that Fleischmann told Chris in his "Infinite Energy 2, 11" interview that "the first successful device would be worth" I don't think that either Fleischmann or Pons (or their heirs) are going to see very much. By the way, even though the movie, "The Saint" has been panned by a number of critics including our very own Jed Rothwell, it seems to be making a good deal of money for its producers. It was third highest grossing film last week. I still recommend it, but only for those of you with sophisticated tastes. Regards, Ron From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 18:25:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA29200; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:05:26 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Cavitator related to pinch discussion Resent-Message-ID: <"NajYZ1.0.987.oPNLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It has been brought to my attention that possibly various Vortexians may not know of the background and basis for focusing my suggestions to Frank Z. on cavitation in a metal particulate or colloidal suspension. This background information is in the article " A 'Micro-fusion" reactor: Nulcear reactions in 'the cold' by ultrasonic cavitation", Tom Benson, IE Vol. 1 No. 1 , March-April 1995. This article discusses the work of Roger Stringham, Russ George, and Equest, namely cavitation in D2O bubbles on the surface of metal plates. The evidence (as published in the article) for energy generation in the Equest process is primarily in the form of melted metal. No calorimetry data was published. Here are some selected quotes from the article that I think give credence to the idea of using a metallic suspension: "Consider a challenge: Begin with a small square of palladium metal foil, which has a melting temperature of about 1,550 deg. C. Immerse in cool water. Then, using only about 100 watts of power incident over the area of the foil.. find a way to melt a hole in the metal in less than 5 minutes." "It can be reproduced essentialy every time it is tried - 100 percent reproducibility." "found a variety of products - most notably helium-4 and helium-3." "unambiguous evidence ... of fusion-like explosions taking place deep within the metal" "in this process, the palladium, titanium, or other metal target is immersed in heavy water (D2O) and the target is bombarded with high intensity sound waves. The high frequency sound waves (typically 20 kilo-Hz) cause the expansion and contraction of tiny so-called cavitation bubbles." "Instead of collapsing and disappearing into the fluid, the bubbles actually collapse *into* the metal surface. Photomicrographs show that the bubbles form a funnel-shaped jet, which injects the contents of the bubble (now, in part, a deuterium plasma at extraordinary high temperatures and pressures) into the metal lattice." "In the low pressure region, the bubble grows relatively slowly and steadily, continuing its growth from shear momentum even after the acoustic pressure has become positive. This phase of the expansion is *isothermal*, which means that the bubble grows slowly enough that it stays at a temperature approximately equal to its surroundings, even as it gains in size and mass." "the bubble collapses very fast - within 1 percent of the total cycle time!" "The collapse happens *adiabatically*, which means the bubble does not have time to equalize temperature." "At the final, catastrophic moment of collapse, it forms a funnel-shaped jet - which injects the contents of the bubble into the metal." "Clearly what is happening is not ordinary *hot* fusion. If it were the experimenters operating the Mark II would be killed by a blast of lethal neutron and gamma radiation." "in one configuration, out of a total of 375 watts of electrical input power to the transducer, only about 100 watts actually appears as acoustic energy in the reaction chamber." "In a series of tests at LANL in 1994, some exceedingly high levels of helium-4 were achieved. The sample gas was tested at Rockwell International, known for its quality helium measurements, was found to contain 552 ppm helium-4 - about 100 times background..." "Systems using ordinary water or non-reactive metals do not lead to destructive effects on metal. They produce no excess heat that could be counted significant. Control runs evidenced no helium-4 above background level." The above is too bad, because light water work is more desireable. It would be good if it were better defined exactly what control tests were done. "... developing commercial devices is likely to be much more difficult; the engineering obstacles are formidable. For example, designing the device to run for long periods without destroying the metal targets has not been easy." That's where my thoughts on using metal particulates comes in. They would be dynamically recyclable, somewhat reuseable, and reliably positionable in the focal area. In regard to using fluidic amplifiers or oscillators, this was suggested in that it seems that such technology is both cheap and well developed, so could be expected to yield superior engineering results. Also, it could avoid the wear and tear and heatr loss of friction induced cavitation. However, I recently obtained some piezos that are of such a size that I am beginning to question the use of fluidic circuity, but more on that later. SOME SPECULATION: Page 37 shows drawings of bubble collapses into very small openings in the metal lattice, and SEM micrograph of the resulting openings. It appears to me that conditions in the bubble collapse and injection are similar to those in some of the old fusion devices which created neutron fluxes - namely (1) temperatures in the 1 - 2 million degree range and (2) significant plasma instabilities and pinching. It therefore possible the site may obtain a significant amount of energy from stripping. The pinch I am suggesting may occur would be due to electrons separating from the plasma at the pinch hole opening and traveling in the metal beside the ion core being injected into the lattice. Just more food for thought, grist for the mill, .... etc. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 20:38:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA21186; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:32:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:32:39 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:32:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704170332.WAA21006 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Scientists and Ethics Resent-Message-ID: <"iazno1.0.uA5.MdPLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 19:12 4/16/97 MDT, Ron McFee wrote: > Actually the meeting that Scott went to in Santa Fe must have been the the > "Workshop on Cold Fusion Phenomena" May 23-25, 1989. Right you are, Ron...and, evidence of my presence there can be seen in the photo of our Dual-Method Calorimeter on the EarthTech web page. There's a black & white poster on the wall that I got at that conference. I remember lots of people but I didn't realize it was over 200. I remember mostly a hot-head from Syracuse, I think, who had a fancy neutron detector and was trying to put down everyone else who were using BF3 counters... Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 20:43:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA21828; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:35:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:35:39 -0700 Date: 16 Apr 97 23:33:51 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Orwellian Riddle of the Day Message-ID: <970417033351_72240.1256_EHB96-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"sLSMF3.0.yK5.AgPLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Swartz writes: Why dont the packed bed folks using the vertical calorimetric systems put the return water going in from the top and down? Because when they do that the oxygen gets into the beads and wrecks them, as I have pointed out many times. They tried that. And you can't put the anode on the bottom, either. Enough oxygen bubbles gets through to wreck the beads. Hypothesis 1 - because the ** descending ** vertical calorimetry may decrease the XSH (if any) under similar conditions as discussed previously. This hypothesis has no basis in reality. The "problem" with vertical calorimetry does not exist. When people calibrate with joule heaters and with null bead electrolysis, the heat recovered from the cell balances closely with input. THERE IS NO PROBLEM, AND NOTHING TO EXPLAIN. "Vertical calorimetry" reminds me of a Russian Gulag interrogation technique, in which a prisoner was asked over and over again: "Why did you blow up the bridge?!? Who helped you? Where did you get the explosives?!!" The bridge would be standing in plain sight, intact, never blown up. But the prisoner would be forced to sign a confession. Swartz demands we confess there is a problem, even though the experiments prove there is none. In science, the experiment is the standard of reality and the final arbiter of truth. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 03:55:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA18284; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:52:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:51:28 +0000 Message-ID: <19970417105126.AAA24412 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"U1nEN2.0.bT4.e3WLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex : If instead of going for thousands of joules in one pulse might it not be better to go with several smaller pulses at say 60 per second? One can get a 40 joule pulse by using the 13,800 volt capacitors used by the power companies for line balance, if you can get up to 0.42 microfarads of capacitance without going bankrupt. The 120-240 V.A.C. 60 Hz house wiring can handle this ok with a 4 millisecond draw and a 12 millisecond off time. A standard oil furnace ignition transformer rated at 10,000 volts (rms) at 23 milliamperes (60 Hz)with a series diode could be used to charge the capacitor. A synchronized driver could "gate" the "water thyratron" by either a rotating ceramic aperature or an oscillating ceramic plug-valve that moves over the ceramic plate separating the two bodies of water. With 12 milliseconds for recovery and gap setup there should be some design latitude and a bit more safety. Critique from Robert Eachus and Mike Schaffer would be appreciated. Funding and labor by Frank Stenger, essential. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 05:50:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA15771; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 05:47:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 05:47:32 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970417124550.00697834 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:45:50 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Riddle of the Day proving impact of Vertical Calorimetry Resent-Message-ID: <"Xvn4T3.0.Ls3.ZlXLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:33 PM 4/16/97 EDT, Jed agrees that "the packed bed folks using the vertical calorimetric systems" will not put the return water going in from the top and down. Jed wrote: >Because when they do that the oxygen gets into the beads and wrecks them, as I >have pointed out many times. YOU "pointed that out". Based upon what? Did you do an oxygen measurement? Do you think oxygen is generated at the cathode, Jed? What was the oxygen pressure which destroys the beads Jed? Is there a threshold? ========================================================== >They tried that. And you can't put the anode on >the bottom, either. Enough oxygen bubbles gets through to wreck the beads. The beads look bad anyway according to many. Dont they? How do you prove the oxygen bubbles "wreck the beads", Jed. Rather, it is obvious that they do not do it because the amplified "O/U" disappears, as Jed indicates, although he ascribes it to oxygen wrecking the system. Jed, what about the 21% oxygen in the air? Do you load the beads anoxically, Jed? ========================================================== > > Hypothesis 1 - because the ** descending ** vertical calorimetry may > decrease the XSH (if any) under similar conditions as discussed > previously. > >This hypothesis has no basis in reality. It is a hypothesis, Jed. YOUR comments usually have no basis in reality, which is why you avoid the science, and attack people, including researchers in CF. The hypothesis is valid, and quickly explains to any sentient what is happening? ========================================================== > The "problem" with vertical >calorimetry does not exist. Oh yes it does. Dr. Merriman corrected in his own way. Patterson even corrects in the most recent patent, although there is that minus sign problem. Have you checked either source, Jed? ================================================= >When people calibrate with joule heaters and with >null bead electrolysis, the heat recovered from the cell balances closely with >input. THERE IS NO PROBLEM, AND NOTHING TO EXPLAIN. Because you use an equation that does not apply for vertical systems with thermal flow included. Notice Jed didnt answer any of the other questions which show his threshold for misstatement is not high. He claims that I said he claimed water boils at 45C. When it was pointed out he is apparently posting almost anything to bolster his specious arguments, such as this matter, he hides. Like with the vertical calorimetry, there is a problem, and there is much to explain. ================================================== > In science, the experiment is the standard >of reality and the final arbiter of truth. > >- Jed > > That is true. But not necessarily the interpretation. Which is why these folks do not make the flow horizontal, or flow downward, or use a static calorimeter. Vertical flow calirometric "kilowatts" is a dog which dont hunt, Jed. This is NOT to say CF is not real, because it is. It is NOT to say there is not evidence of excess heat in some of these systems, because there is. Just that although some may have found a way to amplify the effect (of uncalibrated "heat" & not true excess heat), it may negatively impact the field by not considering this issue. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 05:52:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA26104; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 05:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 05:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 04:53:20 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"H3gCD3.0.lN6.-mXLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:51 AM 4/17/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >Critique from Robert Eachus and Mike Schaffer would be appreciated. >Funding and labor by Frank Stenger, essential. :-) > >Regards, Frederick Hey Frederick, When are *you* gonna do some tinkering? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 06:03:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA27061; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 05:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 05:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:54:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Todd Heywood To: minnie.nic.kingston.ibm.com:vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Fwd: HUMOR "True!" (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"wIm8D2.0.kc6.4wXLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In light of the recent "happenings" on vortex, this seems pretty timely... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- I may suffer eternal email damnation for posting this. Please forgive me for not staying on topic. Q: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1,331: 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb has been changed; 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers. 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb. 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we are all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mail list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs. 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. 19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here. 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 06:46:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA01079; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 06:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 06:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:44:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fwd: HUMOR "True!" (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"HkKLd1.0.mG.4bYLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Todd, 1+14+7+27+53+156+41+109+203+111+306+27+14+3+33+12+4+47+143 = 1311 You are missing twenty votes, you said 1331. I am disgruntled and disgusted at your sloppyness in composing this joke (you do claim to be the originator?). I WANT MY MONEY BACK! for having expectations raised. I hold you responsible for the ensuing scandal and controversy generated on this list. Very, very seriously, Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 07:15:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA04130; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33562FC8.3EFA interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:12:24 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fwd: HUMOR "True!" (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ov22q2.0.Q01.s-YLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Todd Heywood wrote: > > In light of the recent "happenings" on vortex, this seems pretty timely... > You don't understand, Todd - it's just our version of a "group hug"! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 07:47:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA08393; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:42:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wharton 128.183.251.148 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970416213709_72240.1256_EHB116-1 CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:42:05 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: CETI / Dumb quote from Gore Resent-Message-ID: <"5db-n.0.332.eRZLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell writes: >Hal Puthoff asked me what are the approximate o-u ratios and power levels of >the latest big CETI cells. Sorry, but my information is sketchy. As usual they >are keeping things mostly secret. Power is back at the kilowatt level. Input >versus output is not as high as it was, but it is difficult to measure because >they are using two fluid loops: electrolyte through the cell and cooling water >through the electrolyte. This is good news. It looks as though CETI is now using a pure water flow calorimetry system. The term "pure water" is used here to denote the normal flow calorimetry technique and to distinguish from the CETI combined flow calorimetry technique which uses the flowing electrolyte to do heat measurements. The problem with the combined technique is that the cell could be causing chemical changes in the electrolyte and the chemical potential of the cell inflow and the cell outflow could be different. This chemical potential difference could then cause an error in the energy balance calculation if it were ignored. The pure water technique does not allow this effect because there are no added chemicals in the water and hence no possibility for a chemical reaction. The new two fluid loop technique that CETI is now using sounds like a valid system. If there is any o-u indicated by this system then that is really big news. If all this proves to be the case then I would believe in cf and the first thing I would do is give Robert Park a call. The last time I talked to him was before his talk at Goddard on Pathological Science. We discussed the CETI combined flow calorimetry technique and we both agreed that it was a joke. He lead off his talk with the ABC video of Patterson and his power cell. The audience got a good laugh over it and it was a good lead-in to the general topic of Pathological Science. We can all hope that with an apparently valid calorimetry technique CETI can now show excess heat but I fear that the new results will show zero excess heat. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 08:06:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA02253; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:03:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:03:34 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:05:41 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Vertical Calorimetry - Rayleigh number Resent-Message-ID: <"1zh0U1.0.7Z.5lZLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchel Swartz wrote: > The Rayleigh number has rho to the second power, and >a term for specific heat is missing too, methinks. Is that correct? Sorry folks, I made a mistake. For those still interested, the Rayleigh number is: Ra = L^3 rho^2 g beta c DeltaT/mu k where c = specific heat k = thermal conductivity beta = volume expansion coef, dV/(VdT) rho = mass density g = acceleration of gravity mu = viscosity deltaT = a temperature difference (geometry dependent) L = a system dimension (geometry dependent) Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 08:30:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA05453; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:24:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:24:29 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:24:18 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704171524.LAA09658 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <19970417105126.AAA24412 LOCALNAME> (frederick.sparber@worldnet.att.net) Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"utNMF1.0.3L1.i2aLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber (frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net) said: > If instead of going for thousands of joules in one pulse might it > not be better to go with several smaller pulses at say 60 per second? There is an awful lot of commercial equipment out there that does just that, and I designed some of it. ;-) But in this application, I think that you would be barking up the wrong tree. To get a good starting pinch you want a relatively cold, but ionized, gas. (Seems silly to talk about 10,000 degrees or so as cold, but...) If you are really aiming for the 10KeV range, I would think you would be better off with a rep rate of 1/sec or even lower. > One can get a 40 joule pulse by using the 13,800 volt capacitors used > by the power companies for line balance, if you can get up to 0.42 > microfarads of capacitance without going bankrupt. I used to get some nice oil filled cans from Aerovox. They were about a 4" cube and came in 12.5 microFarads at 4000 volts (100 joules) or 24 microFarads at 2500 volts (75 joules). I used the 24 mike caps and overvoltaged them. They were rated for 60 cycles AC, and the rating on the 24's according to the tech weenies at the manufacturer, was limited by the heat loss in the internal leads. They held at 4KV quite nicely, but after a few thousand cycles you would lose those internal lead wires--apparently due to flexing. I only had them blow on first charge (usually due to shipping damage), but that could be spectacular. > A synchronized driver could "gate" the "water thyratron" by either a > rotating ceramic aperature or an oscillating ceramic plug-valve that > moves over the ceramic plate separating the two bodies of water. As I keep trying to tell you, without (external) inductance in the power supply, you will have an unstable pinch. I used a 120? (It has been a long time but on that order.) turn coil around a silicon steel core. The goal was to saturate the core, so that you only got significant inductance if the current dropped. If you want you can do this like in a magnetic amplifier--have one coil (a couple of turns) to saturate the core, then you will have a circut where the current can go up quickly, but has to switch the core to reverse. I'll have to think about that some more. Hmmm. How about this. Wind a core with two strands (AWG 6 or so) and connect them in opposite directions. (I'll just leave a marker here to point out that good coil design and potting compounds are a necessity. You are going to have kilovolts per millimeter in there.) Now put a diode in one leg (fast switching so you may want an SCR or a power transistor). You will have little or no forward inductance, but reversing will hit the full inductance of the coil. Now add a third coil in parallel, and use the quenched shunt trick to get the current started. Get the parameters right and you should have enough inductance backed current to keep the pinch open (no sausage instabilities) and enough peak current to get the temperatures you are looking for. Or just do the same thing with one wire going to a short and the other through the pinch. The coil inductance will insure that the energy is split evenly between the two circuts, and fight any back emf from developing sausages. I hate to sound like a broken record on energy stored in the pinch itself, but safety is and should be first priority. Imagine squeezing a tennis ball down to the size of a marble. As the ball gets smaller, the amount of pressure per square inch of surface goes up, but the amount of surface goes down. So as the ball gets smaller the total force required to maintain the current size goes down. (Translation to the pinch environment: once you get the pinch started, you can rapidly squeeze down to a millionth of the original volume.) But lose the handle (kink instability, sausage instability, etc.) or just run out of energy--your capacitors have gone from 4kV to -1kV, etc., and the pinch will explosively uncompress. (Yes, you should expect with a good pinch to reverse charge your capacitors, or have a diode rigged as a crowbar.) Even if you start with a gas, it is not hard to get greater than solid densities in a pinch. When that lets go it goes BOOM! I had a nice can for this sort of thing--about a meter long 15 cm in diameter electrodes centered in the end caps. The end caps were gasketed and held closed by springs, but if the pressure was high enough they opened completely. I usually loaded it to 100 torr, after baking out with a low power discharge, and often I went through two or three charge, bake, recharge cycles to get all the adsorbed gases out. The first time I used it, the (stainless steel) can ruptured, in spite of the end plugs. We finally ended up using a section of extruded aluminum pipe about 1/4" thick around an inner stainless steel can, and replacing as necessary. We also put blowout diaphragms in the end caps, etc. The nice thing about it was that if you had a failed pinch, or a fizzle, you could recharge the capacitors and reshoot. It was only a working pinch that guaranteed venting. We also did some experiments with a small i.d. quartz tube between the electrodes, and charged to a higher pressure. (With a vaccum around it.) More plumbing required but a lot easier to repeat--with the same gas volume most of the energy went into shattering the tube, so the ports didn't blow, and since the only surface to cook down was the interior of the tube one pass did that. Remember though that my goal was not fusion--we were looking for a fast burst of short UV to cause photopolymerization with lots of cross-links. Do it right, and you could literally form parts that were a single molecule--and much stronger than steel. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 09:26:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA21385; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:15:20 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:13:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970417121357_-401535569 emout11.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: thank you Horrice Resent-Message-ID: <"OwsD71.0.2E5.LoaLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It has been brought to my attention that possibly various Vortexians may not know of the background and basis for focusing my suggestions to Frank Z. on cavitation in a metal particulate or colloidal suspension. This background information is in the article " A 'Micro-fusion" reactor: Nulcear reactions in 'the cold' by ultrasonic cavitation", Tom Benson, IE Vol. 1 No. 1 , March-April 1995. This article discusses the work of Roger Stringham, Russ George, and Equest, namely cavitation in D2O bubbles on the surface of metal plates. .............................................................................. .................................... Horrace Cavitation induced fusion almost fits into conventional hot fusion modes of thinking. See "Can Sound Drive Fusion in A Bubble?" Science vol 266 16 Dec 94. Temperatures of over 100,000 deg K and presssures over 100 million atm have been reported. These conditions are 1/3 of those required by the NOVA inertial confinment reactor. An item that is missing from the "Science" article that Yuri informed me about is the number of cavitation bubbles. Yury wants the system adjusted to produce many thousands of small cavitation bubbles. The fluid in the cavitation area should look like speckeling smoke in a ray of sunlight. Yuri informed me that the size of the bubbles produced in the Johnstown tests was to large and the number of bubbles was far to few. I'm trying to factor in the large number of 500 angs diameter bubbles into a conventional hot fusion model of D + D and compute the cross section for reaction. I hoping that no cold fuison miracles are required to make the model a success. If I get it down on paper I will try it in the Yusmar. Frank Znidarsic fznidarsic aol.com 481 Boyer St. http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html Johnstown, Pa. 15906 Automatic links: Home_Page Send_E-mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 10:22:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA27765; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:15:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:15:20 -0700 Date: 17 Apr 97 13:13:16 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Please don't call Robert Park! Message-ID: <970417171316_72240.1256_EHB119-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"IK4M52.0.kn6.dgbLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Larry Wharton writes: It looks as though CETI is now using a pure water flow calorimetry system. The term "pure water" is used here to denote the normal flow calorimetry technique and to distinguish from the CETI combined flow calorimetry technique . . . As I said, details are sketchy, but I don't think it is a calorimetry system per se. More like a space heater. Not very good for calorimetry, but when you get so much excess heat that the power supplies would burn up if input equaled output, you don't need good calorimetry. I gather they use two loops because it isn't a good idea to run electrolyte through a standard heat exchanger. It'll gum up. The problem with the combined technique is that the cell could be causing chemical changes in the electrolyte and the chemical potential of the cell inflow and the cell outflow could be different. This was never a problem. It is a fantasy proposed by Wharton, without a scrap of experimental evidence to back it up. It is a violation of thermodynamics, because CETI cells have produced sustained heat 20 times greater than all of the energy going into all pumps, meters, and electrolysis combined. The whole idea is even more absurd as Swartz's "vertical calorimetry," but Wharton is not as obnoxious about repeating it. The new two fluid loop technique that CETI is now using sounds like a valid system. If there is any o-u indicated by this system then that is really big news. There is tremendous o-u, but this is not news. As I pointed out time after time after time after time CETI established this fact years ago by running static calorimeters, thermoelectric calorimeters, heat after death with no electrolysis or circulating fluid, and calorimeters that produce far more energy than all inputs from all sources. I keep saying this, but Wharton pretends he does not hear. If all this proves to be the case then I would believe in cf and the first thing I would do is give Robert Park a call. Please don't! He is the last person we want involved. Normally, I say that even an attack on CF is good publicity, but Park goes too far. The last time I talked to him was before his talk at Goddard on Pathological Science. We discussed the CETI combined flow calorimetry technique and we both agreed that it was a joke. You are two of kind. You are both out of your minds. You deny a mountain of experimental evidence. You deny that repeated, simple tests proved you are wrong years ago. I am sure you will soon think of a new reason to dismiss CETI's work, along with other positive cold fusion results. We can all hope that with an apparently valid calorimetry technique CETI can now show excess heat but I fear that the new results will show zero excess heat. You mean, you hope the new results will show zero excess heat. But of course I already told you they show massive excess. I said that in the same paragraph. I reported it from the same people at CETI who told me a little about the new heat exchangers. You chose to ignore half of what I say. You believe me when I say they have two cooling loops, but you ignore me when I report that both loops produce far more energy out than the total going into the system. I would prefer you deny everything I report, rather than selectively believing only the parts that fit your twisted theories. Why not pretend everything CETI claims is false? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 10:22:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA27790; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:15:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:15:28 -0700 Date: 17 Apr 97 13:13:03 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: CETI beads and oxygen Message-ID: <970417171302_72240.1256_EHB119-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"BG8TG1.0.ln6.dgbLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I wrote that oxygen destroys CETI beads. Mitchell Swartz asked: YOU "pointed that out". Based upon what? Based on discussions with Patterson, Cravens and McKubre. Where in God's name do you get your information? Did you do an oxygen measurement? No need to. Do you think oxygen is generated at the cathode, Jed? WHAT is this supposed to mean?!? When they reverse the flow, as Swartz suggested they do, the circulating electrolyte carries oxygen from the anode into the cathode bead pack. What was the oxygen pressure which destroys the beads Jed? Is there a threshold? No idea. I wrote you can't put the anode on the bottom, either. Enough oxygen bubbles gets through to wreck the beads. Swartz responds: The beads look bad anyway according to many. Dont they? Look bad why? How? Obviously, the beads cannot be abused in a manner known to destroy them. If you stuff a burning cloth into the fuel tank of a Volvo, the car will probably explode. Does that mean Volvos are not safe? The other day an airline maintenance guy took apart a jet engine with a punch and a ball-peen hammer instead of using the proper tools. Jet engines are incredibly tough, but this one nearly destroyed itself on the next flight. How do you prove the oxygen bubbles "wreck the beads", Jed. Observation. The thin film disappears altogether after a few hours in some cases, a couple of weeks in others. You can see right through the beads. Rather, it is obvious that they do not do it because the amplified "O/U" disappears, as Jed indicates, although he ascribes it to oxygen wrecking the system. No it is not obvious. It is nonsense. The o/u does not disappear until the thin film does. I said "problem" with vertical calorimetry does not exist. Swartz responds yet again: Oh yes it does. Dr. Merriman corrected in his own way. FOR THE LAST TIME: NO HE DID NOT! ASK HIM. Just that although some may have found a way to amplify the effect (of uncalibrated "heat" & not true excess heat) . . . Nobody I know runs uncalibrated cells. As I pointed out here a few dozen times, CETI calibrates with a joule heater and null electrolysis. Now I really will stop commenting on this lunacy, once and for all. Swartz will go on denigrating CETI and me. He will go on spreading lies about how Cravens does not calibrate, and he will tell people that SRI ran a cell sideways. He will go on telling people that Jed thinks oxygen originates at the anode. He will probably accuse me of plagiarizing my own articles again. Let him! I am sick of trying to set the record straight. But I must warn the readers of this forum that if you do not respond to of aggressive distortions and outright lies, Swartz and his ilk will turn this forum into another version of sci.physics.fusion. He has disguised his attacks as a technical discussion. He has repeated blatant lies (like "no calibration") over and over again, even after being corrected. This is disruptive behavior. I do not think it should be censored, but it should not be met with silence or approval either. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 11:21:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA13577; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:06:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:08:03 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Swartz's question re: stripping energy Resent-Message-ID: <"AqbCc1.0.zJ3.xQcLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] >>remember that the Stellerator at Princeton was good at producing this >>effect. > >The reason I mentioned thermal energy is the Stellerator is an ohmic heated >magnetic confinement device. This information is 20-30 years out of date. Modern stellarators are not ohmically heated. In fact, they usually operate with nil current. The plasmas are heated by EM waves and/or neutral beams. A new large stellarator is nearing completion in Japan, just outside of Nagoya. It is called LHD (Large Helical Device). A (probably even) better large stellarator is being designed in Germany (Euro Union). University size stellarators operate in Japan, Germany, Ukrain, Spain, Australia, USA. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 12:29:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA27299; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: 17 Apr 97 15:19:25 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Meant cathode Message-ID: <970417191925_72240.1256_EHB75-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"fF9d71.0.Sg6.KXdLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Sputtering in indignation, I accidentally wrote: "[Swartz] will go on telling people that Jed thinks oxygen originates at the anode." I mean cathode. I shouldn't slip like that. It will prompt a new flood of nonsense claiming I don't know which end attracts what. In the same paragraph, I wrote: This is disruptive behavior. I do not think it should be censored, but it should not be met with silence or approval either. In short, boorish behavior should be censured, not censored. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 12:34:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA27279; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: 17 Apr 97 15:19:36 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: A sporting chance? Message-ID: <970417191935_72240.1256_EHB75-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"yaBII1.0.8g6.HXdLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Ron McFee, one who Was There, writes: In my opinion the vast majority of scientists gave Cold Fusion a sporting chance in the year March 23, 1989 to March, 1990. Many put in a good deal of hard work and overtime. Well, I have to respect Ron's opinion, but I do not see how this can be. By March 1990 there were dozens of credible reports of replications. See Fritz Will's table in Fire from Ice, pages 245 - 248. In June 1991, McKubre revealed definitive evidence of massive excess energy, far beyond chemistry. In any other field of science this kind of proof would end the discussion. Everyone would agree the phenomenon is real. If, as you say, the vast majority of scientists were favorably inclined towards CF, why didn't we hear the champagne corks pop in 1991? Why were these results attacked and ignored? Why is it that people like Merriman *still* refuse to read Miles, and refuse to comment on the Morrison versus Fleischmann debate? All I can say is, if this is how scientists express enthusiasm, and this is their idea of a sporting chance, I would hate to see how they treat people they *really* don't like. The real scoundrels in the drama in my opinion were Pons and Fleischmann who played their cute little game and not fully disclosed their work. I have mixed feelings about their behavior. Stan and I talked about this last year. He admits they suffered from swollen egos back in '89. But as he points out, it did not last long; they got the stuffing knocked out of them. In the final analysis, I do not think it is true they have "not fully disclosed their work." Bockris pointed out in '89 that they had revealed everything they knew. They did not know enough to reliably replicate themselves. That is why they wanted to keep it secret several more years. After they joined with Toyota they were no longer free to talk about it. You can't blame them for that. I have discussed this issue of exposure and teaching others with Fleischmann, Storms, Cravens and Miles. I consider them the four great teachers in this field. I think they have done the most to show other people how the experiment should be done. They express bitter resignation. They say they are fed up with this four step cha-cha: 1. They tell people how to do it at places like NHE lab in Hokkaido 2. The people ignore their advice. They do it their own way with the wrong materials at the wrong temperature using the wrong instruments, etc. 3. Naturally, the experiment does not work. 4. The people then turn around and blame Fleischmann, Storms et al. for giving bad advice. Back to step one. And this can only be proven by public demonstration. Anything less is BS. I am wildly in favor of public demonstrations, as everyone knows. But let us be fair. In other fields of science, people establish the truth of a claim by publishing a paper. Nobody demands a public demonstration of a top quark. Anything less than a demonstration is not "BS;" it is a normal, accepted way of doing science. People at SRI and elsewhere resist the idea of doing a public demonstration because they fear they will be accused of un-academic "grandstanding." A public demo is definitely a requirement. But that is because of the hysterical unscientific attacks on cold fusion, and the head-in-the-sand attitudes of people who refuse to read the literature. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 12:36:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA28486; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33567A35.24A7 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:29:57 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment References: <19970417105126.AAA24412 LOCALNAME> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"X8tH01.0.-y6.cedLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > If instead of going for thousands of joules in one pulse might it > not be better to go with several smaller pulses at say 60 per second? > > One can get a 40 joule pulse by using the 13,800 volt capacitors used > by the power companies for line balance, if you can get up to 0.42 > microfarads of capacitance without going bankrupt. > OK, Frederick, it's time I expounded on my inventory of high-voltage capacitors: 0.25 MFD 6000 VDC 6.66 joules ea 5 units = 33.3 joules total. 0.20 MFD 10,000 VDC 10 joules ea 4 units = 40 joules total. 2.00 MFD 4000 VDC 16 joules ea 1 unit = 16 joules total. 2 X 0.5 MFD 12,500 VDC 78 joules total, both sides paralleled to ground. The 6000 volt units have one side at or near ground (case). The 10000 and 4000 units are all 2-HV terminal types. The double 12500 unit has 2 HV terminals with a common ground to case. In a previous life, I had a 100,000 volt, about 300 joule capacitor I made for ball-lightning work - but I used its parts to build the current electrolytic bank we have discussed. Before you ask me to send you what's left of it, you should know it was in the form of a coax transmission line (cylindrical capacitor) 40 inches in diameter and about 12 feet long. Its dead body still hangs in my barn. Too much junk - not enough time - Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 12:52:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA01221; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:47:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: fstenger interlaced.net From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:11:10 +0000 Message-ID: <19970417181107.AAA29273 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"JYzcF1.0.wI.sudLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:19 PM 4/17/97 +0000, you wrote: >Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >> > >> Funding and labor by Frank Stenger, essential. :-) >> >Yeh, but near term my wife has both these things tied up on bathrooms >and kitchens! Go ahead and make some sparks - tell the noise cops it >was just a car backfiring in WalMart's parking lot! > >Frank S. > Won't be all that long until the WalMart's new Superstore parking lot will be available, Frank. They are erecting steel this week. I haven't seen that much of an erection since I climbed the Washington Monument in 1965. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 13:00:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA30580; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:57:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:57:21 -0700 Date: 17 Apr 97 15:55:59 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: More Gore gaffes Message-ID: <970417195558_72240.1256_EHB81-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"ueXb63.0.kT7.W2eLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I can't resist reporting two other gaffes in the book by Al Gore: Those who took such pride and care in building the bridge over the River Kwai, for example, almost forgot the context in which their skill was applied. They never forgot. They were Japanese. Gore refers to the book and movie in which British and American prisoners designed and built a bridge. That was interesting, but it was pure fiction. Prisoners and native slave laborers built the railway bed, at a terrible cost in human life. Japanese experts build the bridges. (I have the memoirs of one of them somewhere at home, if anyone wants me to dig it up.) Gore should not treat fiction like fact. People might think he has confused them. There is nothing wrong with citing a fictional or apocryphal event, like the Trojan Horse. But you should tell the reader that is what you are doing. A little later, on page 207: . . . it makes little sense to continue manufacturing cars and trucks that get twenty miles per gallon and pump nineteen pounds of CO2 into the atmosphere per gallon. How do we burn a gallon of gas and get less CO2? Change the laws of chemistry? The first part is right, except that trucks don't get 20 mpg. I feel bad about this, because I agree with much of the book. The message is important. The writing is better than most politician's ghost written polemics. Many of the arguments are well stated, and many of the facts sound correct. It is shame they are marred by these absurdities. They make you wonder what else he got wrong. You cannot trust anything when the author makes this kind of mistakes. I wish he had asked more people to proofread the manuscript. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 13:16:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA03710; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:01:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:37:35 +0000 Message-ID: <19970417183733.AAA12079 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"xHeYC2.0.rv.m6eLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:53 PM 4/17/97 +0000, Horace Heffner wrote: >At 2:51 AM 4/17/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >[snip] >>Critique from Robert Eachus and Mike Schaffer would be appreciated. >>Funding and labor by Frank Stenger, essential. :-) >> >>Regards, Frederick > >Hey Frederick, > >When are *you* gonna do some tinkering? > That's a tough one, Horace. I started out with just under 2,000 square feet of basement when I dug it with a little Ford tractor and a slip scraper in 1957. I am now down to my little 450 square feet. And with two seasons of remodeling also, guess where the things that haven't found a place to go, are? I've got 50 Amp 240 service down there, all outlets GFI and lots of fluorescent lights, and about 2 square yards of available floorspace. I think the story of the Arab letting his camel put it's head into the tent during a sandstorm is appropriate.As the story goes; before long the camel was cozy in the tent and the Arab was huddled outside. :-) On the other hand the five grandchildren enjoy the spacious playrooms and "theaters" etc. But, the place that is hard to keep them away from, is Grandpa's "workshop". :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 14:23:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA12337; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970417205546.0076250c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:55:46 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: CETI beads and oxygen Resent-Message-ID: <"cqHY-1.0.h03.hxeLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:13 PM 4/17/97 EDT, Jed continues with more of his incessant misstatements: It is obvious that Jed's oxygen claim was made up based upon heresay and conversation, with insufficient measurement or seriousness. This would be consistent with most of his claims recently as unfortunately shown below by yet another four (4) blantant Jed misstatements. =============================================== =jed Now I really will stop commenting on this lunacy, =jed once and for all. Swartz will go on denigrating CETI and me. Jed is apparently unable to stop. Fact is that neither Jed nor CETI was denigrated here, except by Jed, and so this is typical Jedsian BS. Most interesting is that Jed began his own denigration of CETI extending back to the Cambridge January CF symposium two years ago. =============================================== =jed He will go on spreading lies about how =jed Cravens does not calibrate, and he will tell people that SRI ran a cell =jed sideways. Jed continues his incorrigible froth, well separated from the truth. First he claimed they ran a cell sideways when that fit his arguement. Then Jed claims they did not, and then he claims that I will tell people they did. Who cares. If they have a report they want to publish or share they will, and it is unlikely anyone will get accurate info from Jed since he cant even tell the same story twice about this matter. Second Mr. Jed says that I claimd Cravens "does not calibrate". Would anyone be surprised that Mr. Jed froths ... well again? Here is what was posted. It said Cravens did calibrate. =ms In the most recent Patterson/Cravens patent they too =ms corrected for this, although the sign appears that it may be wrong because =ms the patent discusses a number like ( -0.3 C (cant find it so =ms this is by memory)). It said Cravens did calibrate. Therefore Jed lies again only because it serves his "logical" argument, and Jed thinks noone will actually dig up the info (often from only yesterday, or his most recent post) to demonstrate absolutely crystal clearly that Jed is wrong. =============================================== =jed He will go on telling people that Jed thinks =jed oxygen originates at the anode. Would call Jed a moron, but it would be unfair to a whole group of people who did not choose their situation. First, the post asked a question. It said: "Do you think oxygen is generated at the cathode, Jed?" Did it matter WHAT it said to Jed? Apparently not. It said cathode. In fact, Jed's paranoia and fanatasies are sooo bizarre that note: he says: =jed He will go on telling people that Jed thinks =jed oxygen originates at the anode. It does. Oxygen does come from the anode. O2 is reduced to water with acceptance of four electrons at the cathode. Jed is either afraid that someone will tell people that he gets this aspect of electrochemistry correct, or he is so deluded that he thinks oxygen comes from the cathode, and that someone will accuse him of the converse. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 14:44:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA20780; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:27:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:27:05 -0700 Message-ID: <33568A15.224B worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:37:48 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; U; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Meant cathode References: <970417191925_72240.1256_EHB75-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vdrIf3.0._35.bMfLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed - > I accidentally wrote: "[Swartz] will go on telling > people that Jed thinks oxygen originates at the anode." As the originator of the 4000mph Dremel(TM) ultracavitation tool, you have my sympathy. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 14:54:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA16012; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <335686AE.13B5 worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:23:16 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; U; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CETI beads and oxygen References: <970417171302_72240.1256_EHB119-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"veQVL3.0.4w3.qFfLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, Mitchell, and others - I have one question about these exchanges over CETI's calorimetry. Are there any possible differences of significance between a test run using a heater and a 'real' run which produces apparent excess heat in terms of the issue of convection transfer, heat gathering up around temperature probes and skewing the results, etc.? I can't imagine that there would be anything that would make them terribly different, but I don't know. If you force-heat a cell and the thermal measurements of the water come out right, and you do a null run with ersatz beads and it comes out with a statistically zero read, then how could there possible be any question that the 'real' run produces excess heat if that's what they observe? I'm not just siding with Jed, but it seems to me that under those circumstances, it wouldn't really matter whether the tube was vertical or horizontal, fast or slow rate, strawberry or chocolate. Don't the controls and calibration eliminate the question completely? I mean, maybe somebody makes a mistake on one single calibration run. I wouldn't be comfortable with just one run alone, then comparing that to one real run and calling a press conference. But I understand both calibration and actual runs been done over and over and over again, so I can't imagine that it's still a problem. I can at least understand criticism towards a single run with excess heat observed being considered all by itself alone in the universe as if nothing else ever happened. But in light of the otherwise identical system being repeatedly run in two different null modes as control runs, I can't understand the complaint. I'm not the techie many of you here on this list are, so maybe someone could carefully (slowly) explain to me in plain english just specifically what it is that supposedly invalidates the comparison between the control runs and the excess heat runs in the CETI cell, if indeed there is one. Thanks. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 15:10:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA26484; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:55:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:55:37 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:00:09 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"zblVO1.0.kT6.OnfLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:37 AM 4/17/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >I've got 50 Amp 240 service down there, all outlets GFI and lots of >fluorescent lights, and about 2 square yards of available floorspace. [snip] > >Regards, Frederick That's just about a description of my workspace - a very small second kitchen, partially used for food storage and overflow cooking during the holidays (we live in both sides of a duplex.) I haul most of my stuff to the crawl space for when guests come so they don't have to look at it. Sometimes I seem to spend more time hauling things around than experimenting. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 15:29:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA22391; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:00:06 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Swartz's question re: stripping energy Resent-Message-ID: <"eWlsk.0.kT5.LofLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:08 AM 4/17/97, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >[snip] >>>remember that the Stellerator at Princeton was good at producing this >>>effect. >> >>The reason I mentioned thermal energy is the Stellerator is an ohmic heated >>magnetic confinement device. > >This information is 20-30 years out of date. Modern stellarators are not >ohmically heated. In fact, they usually operate with nil current. The >plasmas are heated by EM waves and/or neutral beams. > >A new large stellarator is nearing completion in Japan, just outside of >Nagoya. It is called LHD (Large Helical Device). A (probably even) better >large stellarator is being designed in Germany (Euro Union). University >size stellarators operate in Japan, Germany, Ukrain, Spain, Australia, USA. > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 I am curious as to the reason for continued interst in stellerators Is it because of adaptability to superconductive coils, scalability, low cost per confined volume? How is it that confinement takes place with no current? Are you talking *net* current? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 17:19:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA14268; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:12:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:10:12 +0000 Message-ID: <19970418001011.AAA28084 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"SxUIH.0.sU3.znhLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:29 PM 4/17/97 +0000, Frank Stenger wrote: > >OK, Frederick, it's time I expounded on my inventory of high-voltage >capacitors: > > 0.25 MFD 6000 VDC 6.66 joules ea > 5 units = 33.3 joules total. > > 0.20 MFD 10,000 VDC 10 joules ea > 4 units = 40 joules total. > > 2.00 MFD 4000 VDC 16 joules ea > 1 unit = 16 joules total. > > 2 X 0.5 MFD 12,500 VDC 78 joules total, both sides > paralleled to ground. > >Too much junk - not enough time - Frank Stenger > One man's trash is another's treasure. :-) I visited the local maintenance yard for the power company, and lifted one end of a 200 Kvar, 7,200 volt line capacitor. They had three of them on a pallet, they are about 30 inches tall by 18 inches wide and about 4-5 inches, thick steel casing with a ground bolt and an insulator about 8 inches high on top and must weigh close to 100 pounds. The next size up is 13,280 volt, 100 and 200 Kvar units, all have to meet a D.C. rating of at least 4 to 6 times the nameplate A.C. rating. If I calculated Kvars to capacitance correctly, the capacitance of a 7,200 volt 200 Kvar unit is only about .0132 microfarads. Is this right? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 18:07:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA00504; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:02:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:02:35 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3356C81B.67 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:02:19 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fwd: HUMOR "True!" (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7MFD92.0.o7.gWiLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Todd Heywood wrote: > > Q: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to > change a light bulb? > > A: 1,331: > Actually, its 1,341, counting the 10 write in with Unified Theories of LightBulbs, that show that all previous work on lightbulbs, including the bulbs of Newton, Einstein and Schroedinger, is fundamentally flawed. Using their formulation, not only can lightbulbs be properly changed, but their theory shows that antigravity and Zero Point Energy can be harnessed to eliminate the need for lightbulbs entirely. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 18:10:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA00932; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:04:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:04:41 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:04:29 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A sporting chance? In-Reply-To: <970417191935_72240.1256_EHB75-2 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vxd25.0.SE.dYiLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 17 Apr 1997, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Well, I have to respect Ron's opinion, but I do not see how this can be. By > March 1990 there were dozens of credible reports of replications. See Fritz > Will's table in Fire from Ice, pages 245 - 248. In June 1991, McKubre revealed > definitive evidence of massive excess energy, far beyond chemistry. In any > other field of science this kind of proof would end the discussion. Everyone > would agree the phenomenon is real. If, as you say, the vast majority of > scientists were favorably inclined towards CF, why didn't we hear the > champagne corks pop in 1991? Why were these results attacked and ignored? > Good questions. Here's my opinions. 1. The evidence runs counter to everything Physisists know about nuclear physics. ie The Coulomb Barrier and neutron emmission. 2. 3 big credible Institutions plus many, many personal contacts all got negative results. 3. Since so many people had done experiments the odds were that someone would screw up and get positive results. 4. There are always crackpots writing to Universities claiming to discovered that Einstein was wrong or that they have a motor that runs on water and if someone could just help them a bit with the maths they'll get rich and famous. (Scientists would actually prefer to be famous and rich I think!) Given that and the fact they earn their living doing research they've promised or paid to do, they decided that the positive results must have come from people who were either wrong or crazy. Maybe Bart Simon could give a better explanation of the sociology of the ostrician of CF research from the mainstream. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 18:23:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA03627; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:15:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:15:43 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:15:33 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: thank you Horrice In-Reply-To: <970417121357_-401535569 emout11.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"NIhWh1.0.bu._iiLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > > I'm trying to factor in the large number of 500 angs > diameter bubbles into a conventional hot fusion model of D + D and compute > the cross section for reaction. I hoping that no cold fuison miracles are > required to make the model a success. If I get it down on paper I will try > it in the Yusmar. > Frank, if you're successful you'd better hope that one of CF miracles occurs otherwise you'll be killed by the neutron flux from even 1 watt of heat. Remember d + d => 3He + n gives about 5 * 10^-13 Joules per event. To get 1 watt (1 Joule/sec, don't you love metric units!) requires 1/(5 * 10^-13) = 2 * 10^12 events. Expect 2 *10^12 neutrons per second!! Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 18:25:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA03474; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:14:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:14:58 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3356CB04.28A9 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:14:44 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More Gore gaffes References: <970417195558_72240.1256_EHB81-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9b8qO2.0.6s.HiiLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Al Gore wrote, on page 207: > > cars and trucks ... get twenty miles per gallon and pump > nineteen pounds of CO2 into the atmosphere per gallon. > Looks like Joe Champion must be a consultant to the Auto industry. :-) -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 19:01:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA27527; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:51:24 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More Gore gaffes In-Reply-To: <3356CB04.28A9 math.ucla.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"y_CAT1.0.zj6.0FjLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Barry Merriman wrote: > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > > > Al Gore wrote, on page 207: > > > > cars and trucks ... get twenty miles per gallon and pump > > nineteen pounds of CO2 into the atmosphere per gallon. > > Looks like Joe Champion must be a consultant to the Auto industry. > Can someone explain how pounds are related to US gallons? I've no idea about these arcane units! Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 19:03:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA09738; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:55:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:55:21 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Wet Thyratron Experiment Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:50:49 +0000 Message-ID: <19970418015047.AAA5679 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"7j9Yl3.0.2O2.8IjLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank S.: Another iteration at what capacitance the Kvar powerline capacitors have and the number of joules stored at rated voltage. Kvar at unity power factor = V^2/Z. Z = 1/(2*Pi*f*C) = 1/377*C at 60 Hz. >From this. Rated Volts Kvar C (farads) W (joules) 2400 100 4.6E-5 132 7200 100 5E-6 132 7200 200 1.0E-5 264 13,280 100 1.5E-6 132 13,280 200 3.0E-6 264 Moral here somewhere? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 19:13:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA12331; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:09:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:09:17 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3356D7C0.42E5 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:09:04 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A sporting chance? References: <970417191935_72240.1256_EHB75-2 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vnrly3.0.X03.CVjLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Why is it that people like Merriman *still* refuse to read Miles, > and refuse to comment on the Morrison versus Fleischmann debate? You make it sound like someone is thrusting these things in my face, and I've got my back against a wall, with my hands up, shielding myself from the information attack. How can I *refuse*, when no one has ever made the *offer*? Reading these things requires my (a) knowing they exist, (b) tracking them down, (c) reading them, and (d) thinking about them, and then going back to (a) to address further references they no doubt contain. This takes rather considerable effort, its not like falling off a log. But, the point is, I'd like to make that effort---if only folks would agree on what the best papers are. That was the whole reason for my newly proposed CF challenge: to identify a small core of "convincing" CF literature and then apply the necessary level of critical analysis to it. One person really cannot even do justice to it, since there are udoubtly issues raised in any given piece of literature that I am not expert on. That is why it neccesary to get a small group of people involved in a serious analysis of the literature. Similalry, one experimental paper cannot properly establish scientific validity, no matter how good it is. That is why one needs to a body of papers that collectively represent quality, consistency, high confidence levels and repeatability. If you want to be constructive, just help formulate a definite CF reading list. This requires some thought, I claim, because such a list must truly represent the factors I mentioned in the previous paragraph. In particular, no one paper, nor unrelated collection of papers, will do it justice. I want to see a small collection of papers that show there is a consistent, repeatable cold fusion experiment that has been performed with high quality and yielding high confidence results. If there isn't, just say so. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 19:21:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA13782; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:18:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:18:07 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3356D9D6.36F2 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:17:58 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: 100433.1541 compuserve.com Subject: Re: A new CF literature challenge References: <970414193245_100433.1541_BHG109-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WWV8P.0.FN3.TdjLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > > Further, will you take up my challenge to study and report here on the > 1993 papers in PLA, the Morrison/F&P debate and the > New Scientist report on the same matter? > Yes, I will, if you---or anyone else---will give me the full journal references. With New Scientist, at least try to nail down the month...I don't have time to search through 52 issues looking for an article. If I can get them, I will read them and let you know what I think, here. Hopefully, this "first step" will encourage the cold fusion advocates to formulate a minimal suggested cold fusion reading list (which requires somewhat more thought than simply saying: anything by these authors is great.) -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 19:56:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA04319; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:41:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: More Gore gaffes Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:38:53 +0000 Message-ID: <19970418023851.AAA3615 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"4JLJe.0.L31.CzjLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:51 AM 4/18/97 +0000, Martin Sevior wrote: > > >On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Barry Merriman wrote: > >> Jed Rothwell wrote: >> > >> >> > Al Gore wrote, on page 207: >> > >> > cars and trucks ... get twenty miles per gallon and pump >> > nineteen pounds of CO2 into the atmosphere per gallon. >> >> Looks like Joe Champion must be a consultant to the Auto industry. >> > >Can someone explain how pounds are related to US gallons? I've no idea about >these arcane units! > >Martin Sevior > Across the board, from combustion of a pound of gasoline-diesel there are 3.07 to 3.38 pounds of CO2 formed along with 0.78 to 1.5 pounds of water. So if you figure 5.6 pounds per gallon for a hydrocarbon fuel, it looks like Al Gore was hitting it pretty close. Such data is published in detail in, Marks' Standard Handbook For Mechanical Engineers No scientist worth his salt should be without a copy. :-) I just spent $125.00 for the 80th edition. Takes the mysticism out of about any area of current technology. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 20:03:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA24393; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:00:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:00:10 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970417225840_1087108998 emout05.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: can anyone offer a review Resent-Message-ID: <"DtDrG1.0.3z5.vEkLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Comments needed....part of my class project and possible NASA proposal. Frank Z CAVITATION INDUCED FUSION 4/97 by Frank Znidarsic PE ABSTRACT Several processes that involve cavitation are claimed to produce anomalous energy. These process can be classified into two categories. 1. Cavitation impinging upon the surface of a metal. (Work conducted by Russ George at E-Quest Sciences) 2. Cavitation within the body of a fluid. (Work conducted by Yury Potapov at the Visor Scientific Co. in Moldova) Cavitation can be produced by three processes. 1. Through the rotation of an impeller. (Work conducted by Jim Griggs at Hydrodynamics) 2. Through the use of ultrasonic transducers. (Russ George at E-Quest Sciences) 3. Though the use of a venturi tube. (Yury Potapov) MECHANICAL DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS The "Griggs Machine" produces cavitation through the use of a specially designed impeller. This design has mechanical limitations. The cavitation tends to erode the impeller and knock the machine out of balance. E-Quest's technique employs ultra-sonic transducers. The efficiency of electronic transducers is low. Only a limited number of cavitational reaction sites can be produced. Potapov's Yusmar device employs a venturi to produce voids in the fluid. These voids are then forced into a high pressure centrifuge. Cavitation is produced in the fluid in the centrifuge away from any metal surface. The Yusmar does not suffer from the mechanical balance problems of the "Griggs Machine". Potapov's Yusmar appears to efficiently produce cavitation bubbles. When properly adjusted the number of cavitational reaction sites is in the tens of thousands. YUSMAR HYDRAULIC DESIGN The pressure of the circulating water is reduced in the venturi to less than 5 PSI absolute (less than 9 PSI vacuum). Bernoulli's equations describe the pressure reduction produced within a well designed venturi. Kinetic Energy = Potential Energy 1/2 mVV = mgh The fluid flow through the venturi should be a laminer as possible. The steam tables revel that water flashes into steam at 5 PSI absolute at 150 degrees F. The Yusmar system should be operated at or above this temperature. Atomization is the key to process. The venturi should be designed to produce thousands of tiny voids at its operating temperature and pressure. NUCLEAR CONSIDERATIONS In order to obtain a reasonable reaction cross section water containing at least 35% deuterium must be employed as the operating fluid. The most likely reaction is: D + D = H3e + n (q = 3.3 Me v/reaction) Published reports indicate that the temperature and pressure within a collapsing cavitation bubble may reach 500,000 deg K and 100 million atmospheres for a duration of one pico-second. 1 The temperature is inferred by considering that the blue sonolumenscent flash is produced by the tail of a thermal black body emission. The center of such a thermal distribution produces light in the ultra-violet spectrum (about ten nano-meters) E = hc/wavelength E = hc/(10 x 10exp -9 meters) = 120 electron volts One hundred and twenty electrons volts represents a temperature of: Temp = 2/3(KE)/k = 2/3(10exp-17 Joules)/(1.38 x 10exp-23J/degK) Temp = 240,000 deg K The temperature is about one hundredth of that required in conventional hot fusion reactors. The reaction cross section of D + D at 120 electron volts is very low (10-6 barns). 2 Conventional inertial confinement fusion is designed on the basis that 10 to 100 fuel pellets may be explode each second. The Yusmar device, in contrast, can produce 10,000 cavitation bubbles per second. The total number of collisions in the Yusmar system is. # of implosions x the number of molecules per implosion Each cavitation bubble is about 500 nanometers is diameter. It 3 will be assumed that water is incompressible and maintains a weight of 1 gram per cubic centimeter. Therefore: # Molecules = number of molecules/ cubic meter x cubic meters (1g/.0000013m )(6.02 x 10+23 mole/gram)(3.14)(250 x 10 meters)exp2 Such a bubble may hold 1 x 1exp170 molecules. Assuming that each molecule can make 10 collisions per bubble collapse and that 10,000 bubbles are produced each second the number of collisions is: 10(1 x 1exp17 )(10,000) = 1 x 10 exp22 collisions /sec The number of molecules undergoing a reaction equals: number colliding/sec x cross section for reaction 1 x 1exp 22 collisions/second x 1 x 10 exp-6 barns = 1 x 10 exp16 fusion reactions From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 20:24:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA10388; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3356E81F.778 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:18:55 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: can anyone offer a review References: <970417225840_1087108998 emout05.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xmOX63.0.DY2.xWkLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > > The number of molecules undergoing a reaction equals: > > 1 x 10 exp16 fusion reactions [/sec] These calculations have been done in far more detail by Moss, et al, at LLNL.( Phys Rev A, 211, 1996, p 69-74). Moss finds 1 fusion reaction every 100 HOURS. Your number is high by 19 orders of magnitude, so I think you have made an error....if I had to guess, I would say that you have grossly overestimated the number of atoms that are actually raised to the 120 eV temp. That, and the fact that your formulas are dimensionally incorrect (hint: a barn has units of area). -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 20:40:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA29750; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:36:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:36:10 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: More Gore gaffes Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:35:33 +0000 Message-ID: <19970418033531.AAA3777 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"VOXZF.0.mG7.gmkLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:38 AM 4/18/97 +0000 Jed Rothwell wrote: > Al Gore wrote, on page 207: > >cars and trucks ... get twenty miles per gallon and pump >nineteen pounds of CO2 into the atmosphere per gallon. Let's do a little 9th grade science Jed. The formula weight of carbon is 12. that can be grams,pounds,stones or flugells. You combust 12 units of carbon C, with 32 of the same units of oxygen (O2) you get 44 units of CO2. Thus for EVERY POUND of carbon burned to carbon dioxide the multiplier is 44/12 = 3.6666. Thus for every megaton of carbon burned you get 3.666666 Megatons of CO2 pumped into the atmosphere. If nature cannot fix this CO2 through photosynthesis, this planet is in BIG TROUBLE. Do your homework before you criticise, Jed. Lest the state of Georgia waivers your requirement for a driver-side airbag. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 22:01:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA20215; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:41:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Fwd: HUMOR "True!" (fwd) Resent-Message-ID: <"b8Aok.0.mx4.9ilLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Todd Heywood wrote: >> > >> Q: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to >> change a light bulb? >> >> A: 1,331: >> >Actually, its 1,341, counting the > >10 write in with Unified Theories of LightBulbs, > that show that all previous work on lightbulbs, including > the bulbs of Newton, Einstein and Schroedinger, is > fundamentally flawed. Using their formulation, not > only can lightbulbs be properly changed, but their theory > shows that antigravity and Zero Point Energy can be > harnessed to eliminate the need for lightbulbs entirely. > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry Actually, it's 1,342, counting the 1 (who forgot to register to vote) who is educated beyond his intelligence and who insists on repeatedly screwing in the lightbulb backwards. Seems he refuses to "see the light." :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 00:15:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA08602 for billb@eskimo.com; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:15:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: roshicorp roshi.com Fri Apr 18 00:15:30 1997 Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA08561 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from roshi.com (pool008.maxa.los-angeles.ca.us.dynip.earthlink.net [206.250.113.8]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA18405 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:14:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Chuck Davis To: vortex-l eskimo.com Old-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:59:54 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.4 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: SCTPLS '97 Conference Update & Registration Form (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: *** Forwarded message, originally written by 6155GUASTELL vmsb.csd.mu.edu on 17-Apr-97 *** CALL FOR PAPERS & REGISTRATION --------------------------------------------------------------- SEVENTH ANNUAL INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE OF THE SOCIETY FOR CHAOS THEORY IN PSYCHOLOGY & LIFE SCIENCES July 31- Aug 3, 1997. Marquette University, Milwaukee, Wisconsin -------------------------------------------------------------- Papers and programs are now requested pertaining to applications of chaos theory, fractals, nonlinear dynamics and related principles applied to any of the various psychological subdisciplines,neuroscience, biology, physiology and other areas of medical research, economics, sociology, anthropology, physics, political science, organizations and their management, other business applications, education, art, philosophy, and literature. Please indicate to which of the foregoing topics your paper applies. Submissions may be single papers, symposia, roundtable or salon programs. Subject matter may be theoretical, empirical or methodology oriented. Oral presentations will be 30 minutes in duration. Proposals should be submitted by APRIL 30, 1997 to: William Sulis, M.D. Ph.D., By e-mail: sulisw mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca; by FAX (to McMaster University): 905-521-7948; by snail-mail: 255 Townline Rd. E., RR5, Cayuga, Ontario, Canada, N0A 1E0. This year's conference will preceed the American Psychological Association's annual conference in Chicago, later in August. SPECIAL GUEST SPEAKERS: Julian Sprott, University of Wisconsin, Madison. WI David Campbell, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign SPECIAL EVENT At the conclusion of the Thursday workshops, all conferees are invited to join the folks who have attended the Organizational Workshop for a special presentation of The Chaos Exercise. There everyone can experience the chaotic flow of work in a simulated hierarchical organization, and collect data. If all goes well enough, a data analysis and interpretative feedback will appear in the next available SCTPLS Newsletter. SCHEDULE July 31 Basic and Organizational Workshops Opening Night- Plenary Speaker Aug 1 Conference Day 1 Banquet- Plenary Speaker Aug 2 Conference Day 2 Plenary Speaker Aug 3 A.M. Business Meeting and Final Conference Sessions Start Clinical and Philosophy Workshops P.M. Conclusioin of Clincal and Philosophical Workshops WORKSHOPS Separate registration is required for those wishing to attend the workshops. See registration form at the end of this file. BASIC DYNAMICS WORKSHOP (Half day,AM) given by Keith Clayton, Ph.D., Vanderbilt University; membership secretary, Society for Chaos Theory in Psychology & Life Sciences). This workshop will cover basic concepts of nonlinear dynamics, including attractors, bifurcations, phase space, sensitivity to initial conditions, complexity, fractals, and dimensionality. Implications of these concepts for time series analysis and theory development in psychology and the life sciences will also be addressed. WORKSHOP: NONLINEAR DYNAMICS FOR ORGANIZATIONS (half day, PM) given by Stephen J. Guastello, Ph.D., Marquette University, Milwaukee, WI; Assoc. Professor Industrial-Organizational Psychology and Human Factors Engineering; past president, Society for Chaos Theory in Psychology & Life Sciences. This workshop will explore the best-substantiated contributions of nonlinear dynamics to the science and practice of management and organizational behavior. The medium will involve a mixture of lectures, discussion, and experiential exercises. The overall goal is to develop a conceptual and intuitive understanding of chaotic and other processes in organizations, and their implications for the strategic control and development of the system. Topics: 1. The dynamics that are of greatest use. 2. Individual performance and organizational effectiveness. 3. Motivational flow. 4. Self-organization and other processes of organizational change. 5. Creativity and problem solving. 6. Leadership in a dynamical environment. 7. Game theory and coordination. CLINICAL WORKSHOP (Full day) given by Alan Stein, Ph.D. NECET, New York. The Clinical Workshop will be divided into two parts, punctuated by a lunch break. During the morning, we will review several theoretical and practical matters that become clinically relevant only when we seek to understand mental processes as solely epiphenomenal to nonlinearly founded neurobiology. These include I. Prigogine's arguments against time reversibility in open, living systems which challenge regression and W. J. Freeman's opposition to stabile, internal representations which dispute both the reliability of memory and the appropriateness of interpretations based upon intentions. We will review and assess E. Thelen's and B. Beebe's efforts to formulate infant development in terms of nonlinear dynamics and its implications for treatment and will investigate W. R. Bion's, D. W. Winnicott's and R. Galatzer-Levy's attempts to work with epistemological uncertainty in the face of emerging conscious contents in clinical settings. After lunch, the workshop will become a clinical case seminar wherein participants can pursue applying the morning's theoretical work to actual cases. Everyone is encouraged to present cases (dyadic, couple, family, group and/or organizational) in the afternoon session. PHILOSOPHY WORKSHOP: Philosophy of Science Issues in Chaos and Complexity Theories: Emergence, Causality, and Explanation. (Full day, given by): Jeffrey Goldstein, Ph.D., Adelphi University, Garden City, NY; Past- president of the Society for Chaos Theory in Psychology & Life Sciences. Description: This workshop will address various issues in the philosophy of science and philosophy in general prompted by research into chaotic and complex systems. We will be focussing primarily on how scientific theories of chaotic and complex systems contain "pictures" of causality, order, change, and complexity. Specifically, we will be exploring issues arising from emergent, self-organizing phenomena. In that context we will inquire into patterns, order, and structure, complexifying operations, the emergence of new structures and patterns, and the issue of what is considered natural versus what calls for explanation. Topics include: I. Scientific Theories and Wittgensteinian "Pictures" A. Wittgenstein's idea of the "pictures" that captivate and mislead B. Explicit and Implicit "Pictures" in Scientific Theories II. History of the Idea of Causality A. Ancient and Medieval Notions B. Preformationism vs. Epigenesis C. Modern Ideas III. Emergentism A. Historical Background B. Santa Fe Institute Emergentism: Search for New Laws of Emergence IV. Causality and Emergence in the Logistic Equation A. May's and Feigenbaum's Work on the Logistic Equation B. Factors of Emergence in the Logistic Equation V. Issues in Emergence A. Novelty B. Emergent Properties C. Levels of reality, sciences, novelty, reducibility and deductibility C. Predictability in Nonlinear Dynamics, its limits, and randomness D. Epistemological and Ontological Issues VI. Scientific Explanation and the Natural A. Price's Ideas on Explanation and the Natural B. Wittgenstein's "On Certainty" C. The Search for a New Law of Self-organization LOCATION, ACCOMMODATION, REGISTRATION This year's conference will be held on the campus of Marquette University, about an hour's drive north of Chicago. Accommodation will be available in residence on campus. Please see the registration form attached to the end of this file for rates and selections. Please note: All presenters much register for the conference. Accommodation A 3 day package at Marquette University, single occupancy, $175, extra day $60. Double occupancy $100, extra day $55. A 10% discount offered if you find your own roommate. There is no meal plan this year. However the banquet on Aug 1 is included with your registration, as is continental breakfast each day of the conference. REGISTRATION FORM Society for Chaos Theory in Psychology & Life Sciences 1997 Annual International Conference, Workshops, and Membership To ensure proper credit, please complete the following and return with your payment. Name___________________________________________________________________________ Address _______________________________________________________________________ City _______________________ State/Province/zip/postal code:___________________ Country ____________________ e-mail: __________________________________________ Tel: ________________________ FAX: ____________________________________________ For student members/registrants: What is your institution and program of study? _______________________________________________________________________________ Please check any and all your registration choices on the form below. Return with your payment to Keith Clayton, Ph.D., Membership Secretary, SCTPLS, Dept. Psychology,Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN 37240 USA. E-mail: claytokn ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu. Make check payable in US dollars to: Society for Chaos Theory in Psychology & Life Sciences (or SCTPLS). For personal checks drawn in unconconverted non-US currencies, see option 5 below. For wire transfer information, contact Keith Clayton. 1. Membership _____ $60 Regular _____ $50 Student 2. Conference Registration _____ $110 Regular members _____ $85 Student members _____ $160 Non-members 3. Workshops BASIC _____ $80 Regular _____ $50 Student ORGANIZATIONAL _____ $80 Regular _____ $50 Student CLINICAL _____ $150 Regular _____ $75 Student PHILOSOPHY _____ $150 Regular _____ $75 Student 4. Lodging _____ $60 Extra night July 30th (only) _____ $175 3-day pkg SINGLE occupancy _____ $100 Double occupancy. Please find me a roomate roommate _____ $90 Double. My roommate is: ___________________________ 5. Unconverted non-US Currencies _____ $15 Personal check made out in US dollars from a bank outside the USA. 6. TOTAL -- Please total your selections: US$ _______________________ -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 00:31:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA28578; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:28:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:28:13 -0700 From: Chuck Davis To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:27:03 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.4 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: SCTPLS '97 Conference Update & Registration Form (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"C7U433.0.S-6.CAoLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: *** Forwarded message, originally written by 6155GUASTELL vmsb.csd.mu.edu on 17-Apr-97 *** CALL FOR PAPERS & REGISTRATION --------------------------------------------------------------- SEVENTH ANNUAL INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE OF THE SOCIETY FOR CHAOS THEORY IN PSYCHOLOGY & LIFE SCIENCES July 31- Aug 3, 1997. Marquette University, Milwaukee, Wisconsin -------------------------------------------------------------- Papers and programs are now requested pertaining to applications of chaos theory, fractals, nonlinear dynamics and related principles applied to any of the various psychological subdisciplines,neuroscience, biology, physiology and other areas of medical research, economics, sociology, anthropology, physics, political science, organizations and their management, other business applications, education, art, philosophy, and literature. Please indicate to which of the foregoing topics your paper applies. Submissions may be single papers, symposia, roundtable or salon programs. Subject matter may be theoretical, empirical or methodology oriented. Oral presentations will be 30 minutes in duration. Proposals should be submitted by APRIL 30, 1997 to: William Sulis, M.D. Ph.D., By e-mail: sulisw mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca; by FAX (to McMaster University): 905-521-7948; by snail-mail: 255 Townline Rd. E., RR5, Cayuga, Ontario, Canada, N0A 1E0. This year's conference will preceed the American Psychological Association's annual conference in Chicago, later in August. SPECIAL GUEST SPEAKERS: Julian Sprott, University of Wisconsin, Madison. WI David Campbell, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign SPECIAL EVENT At the conclusion of the Thursday workshops, all conferees are invited to join the folks who have attended the Organizational Workshop for a special presentation of The Chaos Exercise. There everyone can experience the chaotic flow of work in a simulated hierarchical organization, and collect data. If all goes well enough, a data analysis and interpretative feedback will appear in the next available SCTPLS Newsletter. SCHEDULE July 31 Basic and Organizational Workshops Opening Night- Plenary Speaker Aug 1 Conference Day 1 Banquet- Plenary Speaker Aug 2 Conference Day 2 Plenary Speaker Aug 3 A.M. Business Meeting and Final Conference Sessions Start Clinical and Philosophy Workshops P.M. Conclusioin of Clincal and Philosophical Workshops WORKSHOPS Separate registration is required for those wishing to attend the workshops. See registration form at the end of this file. BASIC DYNAMICS WORKSHOP (Half day,AM) given by Keith Clayton, Ph.D., Vanderbilt University; membership secretary, Society for Chaos Theory in Psychology & Life Sciences). This workshop will cover basic concepts of nonlinear dynamics, including attractors, bifurcations, phase space, sensitivity to initial conditions, complexity, fractals, and dimensionality. Implications of these concepts for time series analysis and theory development in psychology and the life sciences will also be addressed. WORKSHOP: NONLINEAR DYNAMICS FOR ORGANIZATIONS (half day, PM) given by Stephen J. Guastello, Ph.D., Marquette University, Milwaukee, WI; Assoc. Professor Industrial-Organizational Psychology and Human Factors Engineering; past president, Society for Chaos Theory in Psychology & Life Sciences. This workshop will explore the best-substantiated contributions of nonlinear dynamics to the science and practice of management and organizational behavior. The medium will involve a mixture of lectures, discussion, and experiential exercises. The overall goal is to develop a conceptual and intuitive understanding of chaotic and other processes in organizations, and their implications for the strategic control and development of the system. Topics: 1. The dynamics that are of greatest use. 2. Individual performance and organizational effectiveness. 3. Motivational flow. 4. Self-organization and other processes of organizational change. 5. Creativity and problem solving. 6. Leadership in a dynamical environment. 7. Game theory and coordination. CLINICAL WORKSHOP (Full day) given by Alan Stein, Ph.D. NECET, New York. The Clinical Workshop will be divided into two parts, punctuated by a lunch break. During the morning, we will review several theoretical and practical matters that become clinically relevant only when we seek to understand mental processes as solely epiphenomenal to nonlinearly founded neurobiology. These include I. Prigogine's arguments against time reversibility in open, living systems which challenge regression and W. J. Freeman's opposition to stabile, internal representations which dispute both the reliability of memory and the appropriateness of interpretations based upon intentions. We will review and assess E. Thelen's and B. Beebe's efforts to formulate infant development in terms of nonlinear dynamics and its implications for treatment and will investigate W. R. Bion's, D. W. Winnicott's and R. Galatzer-Levy's attempts to work with epistemological uncertainty in the face of emerging conscious contents in clinical settings. After lunch, the workshop will become a clinical case seminar wherein participants can pursue applying the morning's theoretical work to actual cases. Everyone is encouraged to present cases (dyadic, couple, family, group and/or organizational) in the afternoon session. PHILOSOPHY WORKSHOP: Philosophy of Science Issues in Chaos and Complexity Theories: Emergence, Causality, and Explanation. (Full day, given by): Jeffrey Goldstein, Ph.D., Adelphi University, Garden City, NY; Past- president of the Society for Chaos Theory in Psychology & Life Sciences. Description: This workshop will address various issues in the philosophy of science and philosophy in general prompted by research into chaotic and complex systems. We will be focussing primarily on how scientific theories of chaotic and complex systems contain "pictures" of causality, order, change, and complexity. Specifically, we will be exploring issues arising from emergent, self-organizing phenomena. In that context we will inquire into patterns, order, and structure, complexifying operations, the emergence of new structures and patterns, and the issue of what is considered natural versus what calls for explanation. Topics include: I. Scientific Theories and Wittgensteinian "Pictures" A. Wittgenstein's idea of the "pictures" that captivate and mislead B. Explicit and Implicit "Pictures" in Scientific Theories II. History of the Idea of Causality A. Ancient and Medieval Notions B. Preformationism vs. Epigenesis C. Modern Ideas III. Emergentism A. Historical Background B. Santa Fe Institute Emergentism: Search for New Laws of Emergence IV. Causality and Emergence in the Logistic Equation A. May's and Feigenbaum's Work on the Logistic Equation B. Factors of Emergence in the Logistic Equation V. Issues in Emergence A. Novelty B. Emergent Properties C. Levels of reality, sciences, novelty, reducibility and deductibility C. Predictability in Nonlinear Dynamics, its limits, and randomness D. Epistemological and Ontological Issues VI. Scientific Explanation and the Natural A. Price's Ideas on Explanation and the Natural B. Wittgenstein's "On Certainty" C. The Search for a New Law of Self-organization LOCATION, ACCOMMODATION, REGISTRATION This year's conference will be held on the campus of Marquette University, about an hour's drive north of Chicago. Accommodation will be available in residence on campus. Please see the registration form attached to the end of this file for rates and selections. Please note: All presenters much register for the conference. Accommodation A 3 day package at Marquette University, single occupancy, $175, extra day $60. Double occupancy $100, extra day $55. A 10% discount offered if you find your own roommate. There is no meal plan this year. However the banquet on Aug 1 is included with your registration, as is continental breakfast each day of the conference. REGISTRATION FORM Society for Chaos Theory in Psychology & Life Sciences 1997 Annual International Conference, Workshops, and Membership To ensure proper credit, please complete the following and return with your payment. Name___________________________________________________________________________ Address _______________________________________________________________________ City _______________________ State/Province/zip/postal code:___________________ Country ____________________ e-mail: __________________________________________ Tel: ________________________ FAX: ____________________________________________ For student members/registrants: What is your institution and program of study? _______________________________________________________________________________ Please check any and all your registration choices on the form below. Return with your payment to Keith Clayton, Ph.D., Membership Secretary, SCTPLS, Dept. Psychology,Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN 37240 USA. E-mail: claytokn ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu. Make check payable in US dollars to: Society for Chaos Theory in Psychology & Life Sciences (or SCTPLS). For personal checks drawn in unconconverted non-US currencies, see option 5 below. For wire transfer information, contact Keith Clayton. 1. Membership _____ $60 Regular _____ $50 Student 2. Conference Registration _____ $110 Regular members _____ $85 Student members _____ $160 Non-members 3. Workshops BASIC _____ $80 Regular _____ $50 Student ORGANIZATIONAL _____ $80 Regular _____ $50 Student CLINICAL _____ $150 Regular _____ $75 Student PHILOSOPHY _____ $150 Regular _____ $75 Student 4. Lodging _____ $60 Extra night July 30th (only) _____ $175 3-day pkg SINGLE occupancy _____ $100 Double occupancy. Please find me a roomate roommate _____ $90 Double. My roommate is: ___________________________ 5. Unconverted non-US Currencies _____ $15 Personal check made out in US dollars from a bank outside the USA. 6. TOTAL -- Please total your selections: US$ _______________________ -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 01:04:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA31264; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:01:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:01:05 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970418080120.0066e734 sparc1> X-Sender: kennel sparc1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:01:20 +0900 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Elliot Kennel Subject: Re: Benard Instability, Vertical Calorimetry Resent-Message-ID: <"KnLwO2.0.Qe7.1foLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mitchell, Mike, others: I agree that the mixing problem can be solved by having a very good stirrer in the line, so in a poorly designed and characterized calorimeter it is definitely a problem but in a good one probably not. But to what extent can we be sure that we can believe the flow rate in a published paper? The flow sensors, though not an issue in a completely state-of-the-art device, could probably be fooled by this effect in a standard low budget calorimeter, could they not? It would be nice to have some studies along the lines of the thread you have started, to catalog the types of errors which can occur and their remedies. Thanks for contributing. Yours truly, Elliot From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 06:22:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA08632; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:17:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:17:32 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704180812.ZM25683 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:12:00 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: new technique for solving nonlinear multicriteria optimization problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"dxv4M.0.o62.hHtLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > CRPC Optimization Software. Normal-Boundary Intersection (NBI), a new > technique for solving nonlinear multicriteria optimization problems, is now > available online. Developed by Center for Research on Parallel Computation > Optimization Group leader John Dennis and graduate student Indraneel Das of > Rice University, the NBI package can be downloaded for free from the NBI > home page at http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~indra/NBIhomepage.html. -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 07:43:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA21414; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:37:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:37:49 -0700 Date: 18 Apr 97 10:35:55 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: A new CF literature challenge Message-ID: <970418143554_100433.1541_BHG132-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"fk1Ql.0.RE5.ySuLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry, With reference to the May 1993 F&P Physics Letters A paper and subsequent debate, you write: > Yes, I will, if you---or anyone else---will give me the full > journal references. With New Scientist, at least try to nail down > the month...I don't have time to search through 52 issues looking > for an article. The date of the PLA paper is (as I recall) 4 May 1993. I don't have the dates for the debate, but please will Jed send Barry an email copy. As to the New Scientist stuff, I wrote: "The classic F&P paper in Phys Letts A for around 1 May 1993..... ....Further, they should also read the report on the paper in New Scientist for that date." Yes, the NS article was 1 May 1993. > If I can get them, I will read them and let you know what I think, > here. Yes, please. You may find it interesting to list the large number of errors - which can't all conceivably be accidental - in the NS report. If you have any problems, I think I still have the full list of them! Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 08:38:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA32232; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:35:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:35:32 -0700 Date: 18 Apr 97 11:13:08 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo" Subject: NYC Nuclear Threat Message-ID: <970418151308_76016.2701_JHC120-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"EWbpI.0.Yt7.3JvLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: With apologies to Dr. Puthoff who was never involved with Dr. Brown (AFAIK), The Farsight Institute's web page (http://www.farsight.org) is reporting that there is an imminent threat to citizens of NYC from a terrorist tactical nuclear weapon obtained from the former Soviet Union. While Dr. Brown's record on RV has not been exemplary (his viewers confirmed the companion following Hale-Bopp), April 19th is a day to take notice of any such warning. The Farsight RV'ers said that they did not believe the terrorist was from the Middle East. In fact, their description was of an Aryan leader. While I believe in the successes of men such as Lyn Buchanan and Ingo Swann in controlled remote viewing, I disagree with the attempts at commercialization by Courtney Brown and Ed Dames. But if you live in Manhattan and have the opportunity to visit relatives this weekend . . . Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 08:43:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA32524; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:37:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:37:18 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:39:25 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Benard Instability, Vertical Calorimetry Resent-Message-ID: <"HFgm92.0.xx7.iKvLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Elliot Kennel wrote: > But to what extent can we be sure that we can believe the flow rate >in a published paper? The flow sensors, though not an issue in a completely >state-of-the-art device, could probably be fooled by this effect in a >standard low budget calorimeter, could they not? In a low-power Patterson flow calorimeter, the flow rate is 1 cm^3/s or less. I looked around some and did not find an accurate flow meter at low price for that flow range. Therefore, in our experiments we used a graduated cylinder and stopwatch. Low tech, but effective. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 08:58:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA04532; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:56:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:56:12 -0700 Date: 18 Apr 97 11:54:38 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Never believe a flow meter Message-ID: <970418155438_72240.1256_EHB33-3 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"3GMJ_.0.k61.RcvLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Elliot Kennel writes: But to what extent can we be sure that we can believe the flow rate in a published paper? The flow sensors, though not an issue in a completely state-of-the-art device, could probably be fooled by this effect in a standard low budget calorimeter, could they not? You should never believe a flow meter. Even the most "completely state-of-the-art" devices are suspect. They are among the most finicky, unreliable gadgets I have ever had the displeasure of using. Ragland has gone through a half-dozen of the darn things. If the author has not calibrated the flow meter, and tested it carefully and repeatedly using Galileo's method, then the data is worth nothing. You should never believe a thermocouple either. The only calorimeter instruments that never seem to break are voltmeters and ammeters. Even with them, a common-sense check is essential. If the paper does not say the flow rate was tested independently, you should ask the author. You can improve on Galileo by using a stopwatch instead your pulse or a pendulum. There is no such thing as a standard calorimeter. The low budget ones designed by people like Storms, Cravens and Miles are much better than the expensive ones. (They are not cheap, by any means.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 09:03:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA04556; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:56:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:56:20 -0700 Date: 18 Apr 97 11:54:28 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: A sporting chance? Message-ID: <970418155427_72240.1256_EHB33-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"x5u7i2.0.671.ZcvLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Barry Merriman writes: You make it sound like someone is thrusting these things in my face, and I've got my back against a wall, with my hands up, shielding myself from the information attack. Yes, you are. How can I *refuse*, when no one has ever made the *offer*? Oh Come On Now!!! What are you? What do you do for a living? Are you an academic scientist, a garbage collector, a cable installer, a sheep farmer? Surely you must be close to a large research library. You have had eight years to investigate this subject. Eight years! I have been posting the names of major scientists and titles of major papers for five years. Again and again, I have posted my standard message: "Here are some recommended publications relating to cold fusion. Contact us if you want one of these items and you cannot get a copy." That is in my home page and in hundreds of messages I have uploaded to Compuserve, s.p.f., and this forum. Reading these things requires my (a) knowing they exist, (b) tracking them down, (c) reading them, and (d) thinking about them, and then going back to (a) to address further references they no doubt contain. This takes rather considerable effort, its not like falling off a log. Again, I must ask: what is your job description? Do you think it is appropriate for a professional scientist to make comments on a body of work, and to try to replicate an experiment *without* reading the literature?!? Because it requires too much effort!!! That is a mind boggling thing to say. Five years ago I was a full-time programmer. Not a professional or amateur scientist by any stretch of the imagination. (God forbid I should ever become one.) But I took the trouble to drive down to Georgia Tech to xerox papers on cold fusion. I read them several times before forming any opinion or posting even one word on the subject. If you find it is too much work to read the literature and learn something about the subject, fine. But in that case you have no business having any opinion, and you should never post anything pro or con. Reading e-mail messages about cold fusion doesn't count. But, the point is, I'd like to make that effort---if only folks would agree on what the best papers are. If Only Folks?!? What do folks have to do with it? You must judge the issues yourself. This is science, not Simon Says. Similarly, one experimental paper cannot properly establish scientific validity, no matter how good it is. Ah, the PPPL 10 MJ run did not prove anything about plasma fusion, because nobody has replicated the run. Top quarks don't exist. The Alamogordo atom bomb test did not prove fission bombs work. No matter how definitive the test is, it must be replicated, first. If the other rules of academic science were flaunted and ignored as often as this one, what a jolly business it would be. I want to see a small collection of papers that show there is a consistent, repeatable cold fusion experiment that has been performed with high quality and yielding high confidence results. If there isn't, just say so. This is a snide comment. I have listed the authors of such papers dozens of times -- hundreds of times! Normally, I would never bother to mail a paper to someone who makes this kind of comment after I have repeated myself so many times, but I'll make an exception. I'll mail Barry something from Pons and Fleischmann, Miles, McKubre, and Storms. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 09:06:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA06512; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:01:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:01:02 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:03:07 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Swartz's question re: stripping energy Resent-Message-ID: <"gljOM2.0.ab1.zgvLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > >I am curious as to the reason for continued interst in stellerators Is it >because of adaptability to superconductive coils, scalability, low cost per >confined volume? > >How is it that confinement takes place with no current? Are you talking >*net* current? The stellarator concept was invented by Lyman Spitzer in the early days of the controlled fusion reaearch. I think it was in 1952. Spitzer was a professor at Princeton, and he built the first stellarator there. This was the start of what was to become the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory (PPPL), a national laboratory. PPPL gave up stellarators for tokamaks in the early 1970s. Over the years, various devices much improved over the early ones have been invented and tested. As a group they are still called stellarators. Stellarators confine plasmas in toroidal magnetic fields. Their distinguishing feature is the use of a strong helical multipole magnetic field in addition to the main toroidal field. Their main advantage is that the plasma can be confined with no net toroidal current; in other words, it is not necessary to either induce nor otherwise drive (eg by waves) current the long way around the torus. A pure toroidal magnetic field cannot confine a plasma. There must be at least some field component that encircles the toroidal plasma the short way around (poloidal direction), which in turn must react appropriately on an external current-carrying conductor(s). The stellarator helical multipole components make poloidal field components that are phased to confine the plasma with no current other than the plasma's own natural diamagnetic current. Modern stellarator design relies heavily on 3D computer calculation of plasma equilibrium and stability in complicated 3D fields. The biggest problems IMHO are (1) complicated coils that can be difficult to design and build; (2) complicated theory (at least when one wants to be quantitative) slowed progress in the past. However, stellarators do work quite well. They have received much less funding world wide than tokamaks, but much of what is learned in the simpler tokamaks can be transfered to stellarators. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 09:17:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA09569; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:15:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:15:12 -0700 Date: 18 Apr 97 11:08:11 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: More Gore gaffes Message-ID: <970418150811_72240.1256_EHB128-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"thE_I2.0.NL2.FuvLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Fred Sparber writes: . . . for every megaton of carbon burned you get 3.666666 Megatons of CO2 pumped into the atmosphere. If nature cannot fix this CO2 through photosynthesis, this planet is in BIG TROUBLE. Do your homework before you criticize, Jed. Lest the state of Georgia waivers your requirement for a driver-side airbag. :-) Oh, I knew that! I wasn't quibbling with Gore's arithmetic. I figured you get about 19 lbs of CO2 from 7 lbs of gasoline. I thought it was funny that he hopes to change the proportions, and get *less* CO2 per pound. He probably did not mean that -- I hope he didn't! -- but that is how it came out. That's sloppy editing. There are many other awkward sentences and poorly researched ideas in the book. He devotes a couple of pages to the "1855 Chief Seattle letter," without mentioning that most experts say it is a 20th century fake. He makes a ham-handed attack on scientific objectivity. He ends up blaming Francis Bacon for the Third Reich, on page 256: Although [Plato] searched for a single cause behind all things, he attempted to discern their nature by locating them in relation to only one point of reference -- human intellect rather than through a process of philosophical triangulation, which would have relied on two points, humankind and the Creator (or what could also be called a single cause). By assuming that the human intellect is not anchored in a context of meaningful relationships, with both the physical world and the Creator, Plato assured that later explanations of the workings of the world would become progressively more abstract. Francis Bacon is a case in point. His moral confusion -- the confusion at the heart of much of modern science -- came from his assumption, echoing Plato, that human intellect could safely analyze and understand the natural world without reference to any moral principles defining our relationship and duties to both God and God's creation. Bacon, for example, was able to enthusiastically advocate vivisection for the pure joy of learning without reference to any moral purpose, such as saving human lives, as justification for the act. And tragically, since the onset of the scientific and technological revolution, it has seemingly become all too easy for ultrarational minds to create an elaborate edifice of clockwork efficiency capable of nightmarish cruelty on an industrial scale. The atrocities of Hitler and Stalin, and the mechanical sins of all who helped them might have been inconceivable except for the separation of facts from values and knowledge from morality. Oy veh! If this written by an ordinary fruitcake it would be of no importance. But the author is a heartbeat away from the presidency, as the expression goes. Who says philosophy makes no difference? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 09:18:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA09623; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:15:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:15:20 -0700 Date: 18 Apr 97 12:13:41 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Morrison vrs Fleischmann Part I Message-ID: <970418161341_72240.1256_EHB84-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"CJ2MU2.0.DM2.MuvLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex [Several people have asked for this, and today Chris asked me to send it to Barry, so I thought I'd send it to everyone, en masse. I think Vortex only handles files of 40 KB, so I'll break it into two messages. - JR] MORRISON VERSUS PONS AND FLEISCHMANN From: Jed Rothwell Infinite Energy Magazine 2050 Peachtree Industrial Court, Suite 113-A Chamblee, Georgia 30341 Tel: 770-451-9890 Fax: 770-458-2404 E-Mail: 72240.1256 Compuserve.com Original Date: August 20, 1993 Attached are two documents that first appeared in Internet's "Fusion Digest." The first was written by Douglas Morrison (CERN), the second by Martin Fleischmann (Univ. Southhampton) and Stanley Pons (IMRA Europe). Morrison wrote a critique of the article: M. Fleischmann, S. Pons, "Calorimetry of the Pd-D2O system: from simplicity via complications to simplicity," Physics Letters A, 176 (1993) 118-129 Pons and Fleischmann respond to his critique. To understand this debate, it is essential that the reader have a copy of the Physics Letter A paper. There is an introduction to the second document written by Eugene Mallove and Mitchell Swartz. The documents are separated with a long dashed line: ----- Please note the rather complex and unusual set of special characters used in the second document to convert font changes, subscripts and so on into plain ASCII text. I suggest the reader might find it easier read this if you convert these back into a word processor format with simple macros. I have done so for WordPerfect, I can e-mail you this file in binary format. - Jed Rothwell ------------------------------------------------------------ Originally-From: morrison vxprix.cern.ch Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Subject: Comments on Fleischmann and Pons paper. Date: Wed, 12 May 1993 17:33:37 GMT Organization: Sci.physics.fusion/Mail Gateway DM-93/3. 5th DRAFT - Scientific Comments Welcomed. 6 May 1993. COMMENTS ON CLAIMS OF EXCESS ENTHALPY BY FLEISCHMANN AND PONS USING SIMPLE CELLS MADE TO BOIL Douglas R.O. Morrison. M. Fleischmann and S. Pons [1] have published in Physics Letters A a communication entitled "Calorimetry of the Pd-D2O system: from simplicity via complications to simplicity". There they claim evidence for the production of excess enthalpy of greater than one kW per cc of Palladium in a Pd-D2O system. They comment that this is comparable with the rates obtained in a fast breeder reactor. They note that the reproducibility is high. In this letter serious doubts are expressed about this claim and the methods used to derive it. Essentially they perform electrolysis in a transparent test tube which is open so that the gases and vapour can escape freely. The cathode is a small rod of palladium of 0.2 cm diameter and 1.25 cm length giving a total volume of 0.039 cm3. There are three stages. For the first stage a moderate current is used for electrolysis. It is noted that at short times the heat transfer coefficient decreases - this they ascribe to the heat of absorbtion of hydrogen ions in the lattice. In the second stage the current densities are raised to increase the temperature above 50 C - this with D2O. Finally, in stage three, the cells are driven to boiling point. A complicated (non-linear regression) analysis [2] is employed and it is calculated that there is excess enthalpy generated in the lattice, the amount calculated increasing steeply with time (and temperature). In the third stage the behaviour near and during boiling is observed using a video camera. From this video, the time for the cell to go from about half-empty to dry, is taken - more precisely the amount of liquid boiled off is estimated over the final 10 minutes before the test tube was declared dry. A new simple calculation is made in which the enthalpy input is calculated as (cell voltage - 1.54 V).(cell current) and the enthalpy output is taken as composed of two terms, the energy radiated and the heat resulting from the vapourization of the D2O remaining in the cell 600 seconds before it is dry (this latter term is dominant). It is this simple calculation that gives the highest values claimed, namely "the excess rate of energy production is about four times that of the enthalpy input" and that the excess specific rate is 3.7 kW per cc of Palladium. There are several major problems with this calculation. First is that the "cigarette lighter effect" has been forgotten. In the last century it was difficult to make reliable matches to light cigarettes. A reliable smokeless lighter was invented which consisted of a rod of palladium into which hydrogen had been introduced under pressure. This caused the lattice of the palladium to expand and thus stored energy. To light a cigarette, the top of the rod was uncovered; some hydrogen escaped releasing some of the stress and thus releasing energy which resulted in a small rise in temperature of the end of the rod. Palladium is a catalyst of hydrogen and oxygen which burn to give water plus energy. The palladium now slightly heated, catalyzes the escaping hydrogen and the oxygen of the air and the resulting heat of combustion which is mainly deposited on the surface of the rod, raises its temperature. This temperature rise releases more hydrogen which is catalyzed by the still more efficient hot palladium, and so on until the tip of the rod is so hot that the cigarette can be lit. The reliability of this system is high. In the simple calculation used for stage three, a significant effect is omitted, of the heat produced by the catalytized recombination of the hydrogen with the oxygen. The oxygen is released from the anode by electrolysis, and towards the end when the cell is about dry, from the air. There is no mention in Fleischmann and Pons's paper of any attempt to measure the amount of oxygen, deuterium and water in the gases and vapours leaving the test tube. In the Fleischmann and Pons paper, it is noted as a further demonstration result, that "following the boiling to dryness and the open-circuiting of the cells, the cells nevertheless remain at high temperature for prolonged periods of time (fig.11); furthermore the Kel-F supports of the electrodes at the base of the cells melt so that the local temperature must exceed 300 C." This dramatic effect cannot be explained by Fleischmann and Pons as being due to electrolysis since there is no liquid and no electrolysis. However it is exactly what would be expected with the "cigarette lighter effect" where the hot palladium rod continues to catalyze the interaction of the hydrogen which is slowly escaping from the rod, with oxygen from the air. It might be expected that this effect would occur also with normal water, H2O, being used instead of heavy water, D2O, but no description is given in the paper of any results of tests of the stage three boiling using normal water,H2O. An interesting confirmation of this using electrochemistry was reported by Kreysa, Marx and Plieth [3]. They write "We have to report here that as we removed the deuterium-loaded palladium sheet from the cell and laid it on the table it did burn a scald into the table. One can still argue that this was due to deuterium fusion. Therefore we loaded the palladium sheet cathodically with hydrogen using an electrolyte containing only normal water (no enriched heavy water) and laid it on to a piece of wood where it also burnt a scald." They say it releases 147.3 kJ per mole D. "The principle of flameless catalytic combustion of hydrogen" - the official name of the 'cigarette lighter effect' - "is used in catalytic hydrogen burners (D. Behrens (ed) Waserstoffetechnologie - Perspektiven fur Forschung und Entwicklung, Dechema, Frankfurt/M 1986)." To be more quantitative they laid a hydrogen-loaded sheet of palladium on to glass rods and "measured, after an incubation time of 15 s, a temperature rise of the palladium from 20 to 418 degres within 74 seconds." The 15 second delay is the time during which the gradual escape of hydrogen releases a small amount of energy from the lattice, thus heating the palladium sufficiently for it to become an efficient catalyst. They estimate a heat flow of 35.9 W and a heat flow density of 179.6 W/cm3". It may be noted that Fleischmann and Pons used an exceedingly small piece of palladium, 0.04 cm3, which works well as a catalyst, but which means that after catalyzing a larger volume of heavy water, the power calculated is apparently larger than with Kreysa et al. because the volume of palladium is so small. Should Drs. Fleischmann and Pons wish to test their previous conclusions [1], it would be interesting if they were to describe experiments where they repeated their published experiment but with a substantially larger amount of palladium and a relatively small volume of D2O. Secondly, there is the assumption that ALL the liquid present in the tube 600 seconds before dryness, was boiled off. That is none of it was carried out as a liquid, from the test tube. Now the video shows that there is highly turbulent motion. And as Kreysa et al. [3] showed, 74 seconds after the palladium becomes dry, temperatures of a few hundred degrees can be reached. Thus it is reasonable to expect that with such a chaotic system, some fraction of the liquid is blown out of the test tube as liquid and therefore should not be counted. The existence of such a fraction is omitted from the simple Fleischmann and Pons calculation. And no attempt to measure this fraction is described. Thirdly, the input enthalpy is taken as the current multiplied by the (cell voltage - 1.54V). It is not explained how these quantities are measured. This is crucial as when the cell is boiling vigorously, the impedance must be fluctuating strongly. Thus the current will have both an AC and a DC component. If only the DC component were measured, then the input enthalpy would be underestimated. A detailed description of the current and voltage measuring systems showing their fast response characters is needed, but is not presented. Since these three important aspects of the experiment have been omitted, it is not possible to say whether or not excess enthalpy has been observed in the last 600 seconds to dryness (stage three). There are two important problems with stage two. Firstly, a complicated non-linear regression analysis is employed to allow a claim of excess enthalpy to be made. This method of Fleischmann and Pons [2] has been carefully studied by Wilson et al. [4] who state that "they significantly over-estimate the excess heat.......an additional significant overestimate of excess energy occurs when the calibration is made above 60 C". Now stage two is mainly above 50 C and rising to 100 C. Further Wilson et al. write "Because of the paucity of experimental details in their publications, it has been difficult to determine quantitatively, the effect of calibration errors." A reply by Pons and Fleischmann [5] did not address the main questions posed by Wilson et al. Secondly, it may be noted in fig. 8 of ref 1, that the cell voltage rises as the temperature rises and that as 100 C is approached, the voltage rises more and more steeply. Experience by the GE group [6] was that in operating similar open cells over many hours, they also noticed a rise in cell voltage with time. They attributed this effect as being due to some of the escaping gases carrying some Lithium with them. As the level of the electrolyte is maintained by adding fresh D2O (but not any lithium salt), the concentration of lithium in the electrolyte decreases with time and the voltage rises. This was proved by atomic absorption analysis, that the cell resistance had risen (causing higher voltage due to the constant current mode operation) due to loss of lithium which was caused by sputtering of electrolyte droplets up the gas outlet tube. This may be considered confirmation that even at moderate temperatures, the outlet stream contains liquids as well as gases as discussed for stage three when the temperature was much higher and the boiling much more vigorous. It may be concluded that claims of excess enthalpy in stage two have not been established. The overall conclusion is that many important factors have been neglected so that it has not been established that excess enthalpy was observed. The experiment and some of the calculations have been described as "simple". This is incorrect - the process involving chaotic motion, is complex and many calibrations and corrections are needed. The calculations have been made to appear simple by incorrectly ignoring important factors. It would have been better to describe the experiments as "poor" rather than "simple". A true "simple" experiment is one where corrections and calibrations can be reduced to a minimum. This can be achieved in calorimetry by using a closed cell and by enclosing the cell in a series (eg three) baths which are each kept at constant temperature. The cell is kept at a higher temperature than the innermost bath so that if any excess enthalpy is produced, the heating of this bath can be reduced thus measuring simply the excess. Since this is a null measurement system, there is little need for complicated corrections. It is to be regretted that in the nine and a half years (the last four years well-funded) that Fleischmann and Pons say they have been working on this [7], that they have employed such a simplistic open-cell system. It is a pleasure to acknowledge the help of many friends, in particular D. Britz, F. Close, T. Droege, R. Garwin, and S.E. Jones. REFERENCES [1]. M.Fleischmann and S. Pons, Phys. Lett. A 176 (1993)1. [2]. M. Fleischmann and S. Pons, M.W. Anderson, L.J. Li, and M. Hawkins, J. Electroanal. Chem. 287(1990)293. [3]. G. Kreysa, G. Marx, and W. Plieth, J. Electroanal. Chem. 268(1989)659. [4]. R.H. Wilson, J.W. Bray, P.G. Kosky, H.B. Vakil, and F.G. Will, J. Electroanal. Chem. 332(1992)1. [5]. M. Fleischmann and S. Pons, J. Electroanal. Chem. 332(1992)33. [6]. General Electric group of ref. 4. priv. comm. [7]. Press release, University of Utah, 23 March 1989. ------------------------------------------------------------ * Continued in next message * From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 09:42:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA07415; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:18:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704181618.LAA17780 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: flow rate Resent-Message-ID: <"HVw_W3.0.jp1.5yvLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:39 4/18/97 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >In a low-power Patterson flow calorimeter, the flow rate is 1 cm^3/s or >less. I looked around some and did not find an accurate flow meter at low >price for that flow range. Therefore, in our experiments we used a >graduated cylinder and stopwatch. Low tech, but effective. Yes, IF you have a nominally constant flow rate. Dennis Cravens told me that the notorious 1 kilowatt Patterson cell rig used an aquarium pump which is a centrifugal type pump that is not constant displacement. He said it was important to hold the hose at the right height when making the stopwatch-cylinder measurements so the pump would be seeing the same head pressure as it was during the experiment. Sounded a bit dicey to me. In particular, he may have thus been ignoring some important head losses that existed in the plumbing down stream from the point at which he disconnected the hose. This would result in a larger flow during the flow-rate measurement. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 09:47:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA15174; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:43:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:43:10 -0700 Date: 18 Apr 97 12:41:01 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Good, low-flow flow meters Message-ID: <970418164101_72240.1256_EHB30-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Wdxng2.0.xi3.TIwLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Michael J. Schaffer writes: In a low-power Patterson flow calorimeter, the flow rate is 1 cm^3/s or less. I looked around some and did not find an accurate flow meter at low price for that flow range. Yeah, I don't know of any cheap ones. Cravens has some gorgeous ones that cost a bunch of money. One for water, another for gas. They are heated tube electronic mass flow meter. The ones for gas flow are described here in the Omega "Flow and Level Handbook" starting on page D3, if anyone wants to know. (Can't find ones specifically for liquid.) The "electronics for completing the system" start at $1197. I can imagine how Reding felt at ICCF5 when their electronics went up in smoke. Patterson originally used medical equipment pumps and flow meters for intravenous drip machines. That stuff has to be rugged and accurate or the patients drop dead. I'll bet it costs a bundle. As I said, even the good ones are suspect. They are guilty until proven innocent. Therefore, in our experiments we used a graduated cylinder and stopwatch. Low tech, but effective. That'll work. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 10:04:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA12364; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: 18 Apr 97 12:40:45 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Morrison vrs Fleischmann Part II Message-ID: <970418164044_72240.1256_EHB30-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"6BmN31.0.v03.nIwLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Originally-From: mica world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Subject: Morrison's Comments Criticized Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 13:30:44 GMT Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Dear Colleagues: There has been considerable misinformation circulating about the paper by Drs. Fleischmann and Pons in Physics Letters A,176 (1993), May 3. We were particularly repelled by the various outlandish criticisms made repeatedly in this electronic forum by Douglas O. Morrison, which were transparently intended to tear down the work of other scientists without regard for the facts. Dr. Morrison's stubborn belief that cold fusion research is "pathological science" is incorrect. Continuing to push that idea does not serve him well, nor does it help the cause of understanding the extraordinary phenomena associated with hydrogen-loaded metals that have been revealed in numerous experiments these past several years. Accordingly, we have decided to post the document that follows, which was prepared by Drs. Pons and Fleischmann and which was previously circulating within the cold fusion community. Best wishes. Sincerely, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove Dr. Mitchell R. Swartz KEY: *text* means original text was underlined **text** means original text was italicized ***text*** means original text was underlind AND italicized Greek letters in the original have been spelled out in this posting. [[approx.]] substitutes for "tilde" notation used in the paper. Subscripts are indicated by {x} bracket notation. Superscripts are indicated by {{x}} double bracket notation. ============================================================== Abstract We reply here to the critique by Douglas Morrison [1] of our paper [2] which was recently published in this Journal. Apart from his general classification of our experiments into stages 1-5, we find that the comments made [1] are either irrelevant or inaccurate or both. In the article "Comments on Claims of Excess Enthalpy by Fleishmann and Pons using simple cells made to Boil" Douglas Morrison presents a critique [1] of the paper "Calorimetry of the Pd-D{2}0 system: from simplicity via complications to simplicity" which has recently been published in this Journal [2]. In the introduction to his critique, Douglas Morrison has divided the time-scale of the experiments we reported into 5 stages. In this reply, we will divide our comments into the same 5 parts. However, we note at the outset that Douglas Morrison has restricted his critique to those aspects of our own paper which are relevant to the generation of high levels of the specific excess enthalpy in Pd-cathodes polarized in D{2}0 solutions i.e. to stages 3-5. By omitting stages 1 and 2, Douglas Morrison has ignored one of the most important aspects of our paper and this, in turn, leads him to make several erroneous statements. We therefore start our reply by drawing attention to these omissions in Douglas Morrison's critique. *Stages 1 and 2* In the initial stage of these experiments the electrodes (0.2mm diameter x 12.5mm length Pd-cathodes) were first polarised at 0.2A, the current being raised to 0.5A in stage 2 of the experiments. We note at the outset that Douglas Morrison has not drawn attention to the all important "blank experiments" illustrated in Figs 4 and 6 or our paper by the example of a Pt cathode polarised in the identical 0.1M LiOD electrolyte. By ignoring this part of the paper he has failed to understand that one can obtain a precise calibration of the cells (relative standard deviation 0.17%) *in a simple way* using what we have termed the "lower bound heat transfer coefficient, (k{R}'){11}", based on the assumption that there is zero excess enthalpy generation in such "blank cells". We have shown that the accuracy of this value is within 1 sigma of the precision of the true value of the heat transfer coefficient, (k{R}'){2}, obtained by *a simple* independent calibration using a resistive Joule heater. Further methods of analysis [3] (beyond the scope of the particular paper [2]) show that the precision of (k{R}'){11} is also close to the accuracy of this heat transfer coefficient (see our discussion of stage 3). We draw attention to the fact that the time-dependence of (k{R}'){11}, (the simplest possible way of characterising the cells) when applied to measurements for Pd-cathodes polarised in D{2}0 solutions, gives direct evidence for the generation of excess enthalpy in these systems. It is quite unnecessary to use complicated methods of data analysis to demonstrate this fact in a semi-quantitative fashion. *Stage 3 Calculations* Douglas Morrison starts by asserting: "Firstly, a complicated non-linear regression analysis is employed to allow a claim of excess enthalpy to be made". He has failed to observe that we ***manifestly have not used this technique in this paper*** [2], the aim of which has been to show that the simplest methods of data analysis are quite sufficient to demonstrate the excess enthalpy generation. The only point at which we made reference to the use of non-linear regression fitting (a technique which we used in our early work [4] was in the section dealing with the accuracy of the lower bound heat transfer coefficient, (k{R}'){11}, determined for "blank experiments" using Pt-cathodes polarised in D{2}O solutions. At that point we stated that the *accuracy* of the determination of the coefficient (k{R}'){2} (relative standard deviation [[approx.]]1.4% for the example illustrated [2], can be improved so as to be better than the *precision* of (k{R}'){11} by using non-linear regression fitting; we have designated the values of (k{R}') determined by non-linear regression fitting by (k{R}'){5}. The values of (k{R}'){5} obtained show that the *precision* of the lower bound heat transfer coefficient (k{R}'){11} for "blank experiments" can indeed be taken as a measure of the accuracy of (k{R}'). For the particular example illustrated the relative standard deviation was [[aprox.]] 0.17% of the mean. It follows that the calibration of the cells using such simple means can be expected to give calorimetric data having an accuracy set by this relative standard deviation in the subsequent application of these cells. We note here that we introduced the particular method of non-linear regression fitting (of the numerical integral of the differential equation representing the model of the calorimeter to the experimental data) for three reasons: firstly, because we believe that it is the most accurate single method (experience in the field of chemical kinetics teaches us that this is the case); secondly, because it avoids introducing any personal bias in the data treatment; thirdly, because it leads to direct estimates of the standard deviations of all the derived values from the diagonal elements of the error matrix. However, our experience in the intervening years has shown us that the use of this method is a case of "overkill": it is perfectly sufficient to use simpler methods such as multi-linear regression fitting if one aims for high accuracy. This is a topic which we will discuss elsewhere [3]. For the present, we point out again that the purpose of our recent paper [2] was to illustrate that the simplest possible techniques can be used to illustrate the generation of excess enthalpy. It was for this reason that we chose the title: "Calorimetry of the Pd-D{2}0 system: from simplicity via complications to simplicity". Douglas Morrison ignores such considerations because his purpose evidently is to introduce a critique of our work which has been published by the group at General Electric [5]. We will show below that this critique is totally irrelevant to the recent paper published in this Journal [2]. However, as Douglas Morrison has raised the question of the critique published by General Electric, we would like to point out once again that we have no dispute regarding the particular method of data analysis favoured by that group [5]: their analysis is in fact based on the heat transfer coefficient (k{R}'){2}. If there was an area of dispute, then this was due solely to the fact that Wilson et al introduced a subtraction of an energy term which had already been allowed for in our own data analysis, i.e. they made a "double subtraction error". By doing this they derived heat transfer coefficients which showed that the cells were operating endothermically, i.e. as refrigerators! Needless to say, such a situation contravenes the Second Law of Thermodynamics as the entropy changes have already been taken into account by using the thermoneutral potential of the cells. We will leave others to judge whether our reply [6] to the critique by the group at General Electric [5] did or did not "address the main questions posed by Wilson et al." (in the words of Douglas Morrison). However, as we have noted above the critique produced by Wilson et al [5] is in any event irrelevant to the evaluations presented in our paper in this journal [2]: we have used the self-same method advocated by that group to derive the values of the excess enthalpy given in our paper. We therefore come to a most important question: "given that Douglas Morrison accepts the methods advocated by the group at General Electric and, given that we have used the same methods in the recent publication [2] should he not have accepted the validity of the derived values?" *Stage 4 Calculation* Douglas Morrison first of all raises the question whether parts of the cell contents may have been expelled as droplets during the later stages of intense heating. This is readily answered by titrating the residual cell contents: based on our earlier work about 95% of the residual lithium deuteroxide is recovered; some is undoubtedly lost in the reaction of this "aggressive" species with the glass components to form residues which cannot be titrated. Furthermore, we have found that the total amounts of D{2}0 added to the cells (in some cases over periods of several months) correspond precisely to the amounts predicted to be evolved by (a) evaporation of D{2}0 at the instantaneous atmospheric pressures and (b) by electrolysis of D{2}0 to form D{2} and O{2} at the appropriate currents; this balance can be maintained even at temperatures in excess of 90 degrees C [7] We note here that other research groups (eg [5]) have reported that some Li can be detected outside the cell using atomic absorption spectroscopy. This analytic technique is so sensitive that it will undoubtedly detect the expulsion of small quantities of electrolyte in the vapour stream. We also draw attention to the fact that D{2}0 bought from many suppliers contains surfactants. These are added to facilitate the filling of NMR sample tubes and are difficult (probably impossible) to remove by normal methods of purification. There will undoubtedly be excessive foaming (and expulsion of foam from the cells) if D{2}0 from such sources is used. We recommend the routine screening of the sources of D{2}0 and of the cell contents using NMR techniques. The primary reason for such routine screening is to check on the H{2}0 content of the electrolytes. Secondly, Douglas Morrison raises the question of the influence of A.C. components of the current, an issue which has been referred to before and which we have previously answered [4]. It appears that Douglas Morrison does not appreciate the primary physics of power dissipation from a constant current source controlled by negative feedback. Our methodology is exactly the same as that which we have described previously [4]; it should be noted in addition that we have always taken special steps to prevent oscillations in the galvanostats. As the cell voltages are measured using fast sample-and-hold systems, the product (E{cell} - E{thermoneutral, bath})I will give the mean enthalpy input to the cells: the A.C. component is therefore determined by the ripple content of the current which is 0.04%. In his third point on this section, Douglas Morrison appears to be re-establishing the transition from nucleate to film boiling based on his experience of the use of bubble chambers. This transition is a well-understood phenomenon in the field of heat transfer engineering. A careful reading of our paper [2] will show that we have addressed this question and that we have pointed out that the transition from nucleate to film boiling can be extended to 1-10kW cm-{{2}} in the presence of electrolytic gas evolution. Fourthly and for good measure, Douglas Morrison once again introduces the question of the effect of a putative catalytic recombination of oxygen and deuterium (notwithstanding the fact that this has repeatedly been shown to be absent). We refer to this question in the next section; here we note that the maximum conceivable total rate of heat generation ([[approx.]] 5mW for the electrode dimensions used) will be reduced because intense D{2} evolution and D{2}0 evaporation degasses the oxygen from the solution in the vicinity of the cathode; furthermore, D{2} cannot be oxidised at the oxide coated Pt-anode. We note furthermore that the maximum localised effect will be observed when the density of the putative "hot spots" will be 1/delta{{2}} where delta is the thickness of the boundary layer. This gives us a maximum localised rate of heating of [[approx.]] 6nW. The effects of such localised hot spots will be negligible because the flow of heat in the metal (and the solution) is governed by Laplace's Equation (here Fourier's Law). The spherical symmetry of the field ensures that the temperature perturbations are eliminated (compare the elimination of the electrical contact resistance of two plates touching at a small number of points). We believe that the onus is on Douglas Morrison to devise models which would have to be taken seriously and which are capable of being subjected to quantitative analysis. Statements of the kind which he has made belong to the category of "arm waving". *Stage 5 Effects* In this section we are given a good illustration of Douglas Morrison's selective and biased reporting. His description of this stage of the experiments starts with an incomplete quotation of a single sentence in our paper. The full sentence reads: **"We also draw attention to some further important features: provided ***satisfactory electrode materials*** are used, the reproducibility of the experiments is high;** following the boiling to dryness and the open-circuiting of the cells, the cells nevertheless remain at a high temperature for prolonged periods of time (fig 11); furthermore the Kel-F supports of the electrodes at the base of the cells melt so that the local temperature must exceed 300 degrees C". Douglas Morrison translates this to: "Following boiling to dryness and the open-circuiting of the cells, the cells nevertheless remain at high temperature for prolonged periods of time; furthermore the Kel-F supports of the electrodes at the base of the cells melt so that the local temperature must exceed 300 degrees C". Readers will observe that the most important part of the sentence, which we have underlined, is omitted; we have italicised the words "satisfactory electrode materials" because that is the nub of the problem. In common with the experience of other research groups, we have had numerous experiments in which we have observed zero excess enthalpy generation. The major cause appears to be the cracking of the electrodes, a phenomenon which we will discuss elsewhere. With respect to his own quotation Douglas Morrison goes on to say: "No explanation is given and fig 10 is marked 'cell remains hot, excess heat unknown'". The reason why we refrained from speculation about the phenomena at this stage of the work is precisely because explanations are just that: speculations. Much further work is required before the effects referred to can be explained in a quantitative fashion. Douglas Morrison has no such inhibitions, we believe mainly because in the lengthy section *Stage 5 Effects* he wishes to disinter "the cigarette lighter effect". This phenomenon (the combustion of hydrogen stored in palladium when this is exposed to the atmosphere) was first proposed by Kreysa et al [8] to explain one of our early observations: the vapourisation of a large quantity of D{2}O ([[approx.]] 500ml) by a 1cm cube palladium cathode followed by the melting of the cathode and parts of the cell components and destruction of a section of the fume cupboard housing the experiment [9]. Douglas Morrison (in common with other critics of "Cold Fusion") is much attached to such "Chemical Explanations" of the "Cold Fusion" phenomena. As this particular explanation has been raised by Douglas Morrison, we examine it here. In the first place we note that the explanation of Kreysa et al [8] could not possibly have applied to the experiment in question: the vapourisation of the D{2}O alone would have required [[approx.]]1.1MJ of energy whereas the combustion of all the D in the palladium would at most have produced [[approx.]] 650J (assuming that the D/Pd ratio had reached [[approx]] 1 in the cathode), a discrepancy of a factor of [[approx.]] 1700. In the second place, the timescale of the explanation is impossible: the diffusional relaxation time is [[approx.]] 29 days whereas the phenomenon took at most [[approx.]] 6 hours (we have based this diffusional relaxation time on the value of the diffusion coefficient in the alpha-phase; the processes of phase transformation coupled to diffusion are much slower in the fully formed Pd-D system with a corresponding increase of the diffusional relaxation time for the removal of D from the lattice). Thirdly, Kreysa et al [8] confused the notion of power (Watts) with that of energy (Joules) which is again an error which has been promulgated by critics seeking "Chemical Explanations" of "Cold Fusion". Thus Douglas Morrison reiterates the notion of heat flow, no doubt in order to seek an explanation of the high levels of excess enthalpy during *Stage 4* of the experiments. We observe that at a heat flow of 144.5W (corresponding to the rate of excess enthalpy generation in the experiment discussed in our paper [2] the total combustion of all the D in the cathode would be completed in [[approx.]] 4.5s, not the 600s of the duration of this stage. Needless to say, the D in the lattice could not reach the surface in that time (the diffusional relaxation time is [[approx.]] 10{{5}}s) while the rate of diffusion of oxygen through the boundary layer could lead at most to a rate of generation of excess enthalpy of [[approx.]] 5mW. Douglas Morrison next asserts that no evidence has been presented in the paper about stages three or four using H{2}0 in place of D{2}0. As has already been pointed out above he has failed to comment on the extensive discussion in our paper of a "blank experiment". Admittedly, the evidence was restricted to stages 1 and 2 of his own classification but a reference to an *independent review of our own work* [10] will show him and interested readers that such cells stay in thermal balance to at least 90 degrees C (we note that Douglas Morrison was present at the Second Annual Conference on Cold Fusion). We find statements of the kind made by Douglas Morrison distasteful. Have scientists now abandoned the notion of verifying their facts before rushing into print? In the last paragraph of this section Douglas Morrison finally "boxes himself into a corner": having set up an unlikely and unworkable scenario he finds that this cannot explain Stage 5 of the experiment. In the normal course of events this should have led him to: (i) enquire of us whether the particular experiment is typical of such cells; (ii) to revise his own scenario. Instead, he implies that our experiment is incorrect, a view which he apparently shares with Tom Droege [11]. However, an experimental observation is just that: an experimental observation. The fact that cells containing palladium and palladium alloy cathodes polarised in D{2}0 solutions stay at high temperatures after they have been driven to such extremes of excess enthalpy generation *does not present us* with any difficulties. It is certainly possible to choose conditions which also lead to "boiling to dryness" in "blank cells" but such cells cool down immediately after such "boiling to dryness". If there are any difficulties in our observations, then these are surely in the province of those seeking explanations in terms of "Chemical Effects" for "Cold Fusion". It is certainly true that the heat transfer coefficient for cells filled with gas (N{2}) stay close to those for cells filled with 0.1M Li0D (this is not surprising because the main thermal impedance is across the vacuum gap of the Dewar-type cells). The "dry cell" must therefore have generated [[approx.]]120kJ during the period at which it remained at high temperature (or [[approx.]] 3MJcm-{{3}} or 26MJ(mol Pd)-{{1}}). We refrained from discussing this stage of the experiments because the cells and procedures we have used are not well suited for making quantitative measurements in this region. Inevitably, therefore, interpretations are speculative. There is no doubt, however, that Stage 5 is probably the most interesting part of the experiments in that it points towards new systems which merit investigation. Suffice it to say that energies in the range observed are not within the realm of any chemical explanations. We do, however, feel that it is justified to conclude with a further comment at this point in time. Afficionados of the field of "Hot Fusion" will realise that there is a large release of excess energy during Stage 5 at zero energy input. The system is therefore operating under conditions which are described as "Ignition" in "Hot Fusion". It appears to us therefore that these types of systems not only "merit investigation" (as we have stated in the last paragraph) but, more correctly, "merit frantic investigation". *Douglas Morrison's Section "Conclusions" and some General Comments* In his section entitled "Conclusions", Douglas Morrison shows yet again that he does not understand the nature of our experimental techniques, procedures and methods of data evaluation (or, perhaps, that he chooses to misunderstand these?). Furthermore, he fails to appreciate that some of his own recommendations regarding the experiment design would effectively preclude the observation of high levels of excess enthalpy. We illustrate these shortcomings with a number of examples: (i) Douglas Morrison asserts that accurate calorimetry requires the use of three thermal impedances in series and that we do not follow this practice. In point of fact we do have three impedances in series: from the room housing the experiments to a heat sink (with two independent controllers to thermostat the room itself); from the thermostat tanks to the room (and, for good measure, from the thermostat tanks to further thermostatically controlled sinks); finally, from the cells to the thermostat tanks. In this way, we are able to maintain 64 experiments at reasonable cost at any one time (typically two separate five-factor experiments). (ii) It is naturally essential to measure the heat flow at one of these thermal impedances and we follow the normal convention of doing this at the innermost surface (we could hardly do otherwise with our particular experiment design!). In our calorimeters, this thermal impedance is the vacuum gap of the Dewar vessels which ensures high stability of the heat transfer coefficients. The silvering of the top section of the Dewars (see Fig 2 of our paper [2] further ensures that the heat transfer coefficients are virtually independent of the level of electrolyte in the cells. (iii) Douglas Morrison suggests that we should use isothermal calorimetry and that, in some magical fashion, isothermal calorimeters do not require calibration. We do not understand: how he can entertain such a notion? All calorimeters require calibration and this is normally done by using an electrical resistive heater (following the practice introduced by Joule himself). Needless to say, we use the same method. We observe that in many types of calorimeter, the nature of the correction terms are "hidden" by the method of calibration. Of course, we could follow the self-same practice but we choose to allow for some of these terms explicitly. For example, we allow for the enthalpy of evaporation of the D{2}0. We do this because we are interested in the operation of the systems under extreme conditions (including "boiling") where solvent evaporation becomes the dominant form of heat transfer (it would not be sensible to include the dominant term into a correction). (iv) There is, however, one important aspect which is related to (iii) i.e. the need to calibrate the calorimeters. If one chooses to measure the lower bound of the heat transfer coefficient (as we have done in part of the paper published recently in this journal [2]) then there is *no need to carry out any calibrations nor to make corrections.* It is then quite sufficient to investigate the time dependence of this lower bound heat transfer coefficient in order to show that there is a generation of excess enthalpy for the Pd-D{2}0 system whereas there is no such generation for appropriate blanks (e.g. Pt-D{2}0 or Pd-H{2}0). Alternatively, one can use the maximum value of the lower bound heat transfer coefficient to give lower bound values of the rates of excess enthalpy generation. It appears to us that Douglas Morrison has failed to understand this point *as he continuously asserts that our demonstrations of excess enthalpy generation are dependent on calibrations and corrections.* (v) Further with regard to (iii) it appears to us that Douglas Morrison believes that a "null method" (as used in isothermal calorimeters) is inherently more accurate than say the isoperibolic calorimetry which we favour. While it is certainly believed that "null" methods in the Physical Sciences can be made to be more accurate than direct measurements (e.g. when a voltage difference is detected as in bridge circuits: however, note that even here the advent of "ramp" methods makes this assumption questionable) this advantage disappears when it is necessary to transduce the primary signal. In that case the accuracy of all the methods is determined by the measurement accuracy (here of the temperature) quite irrespective of which particular technique is used. In point of fact and with particular reference to the supposed advantages of isothermal versus isoperibolic calorimetry, we note that in the former the large thermal mass of the calorimeter appears across the input of the feedback regulator. The broadband noise performance of the system is therefore poor; attempts to improve the performance by integrating over long times drive the electronics into 1/f noise and, needless to say, the frequency response of the system is degraded. (see also (vii) below) (vi) with regard to implementing measurements with isothermal calorimeters, Douglas Morrrison recommends the use of internal catalytic recombiners (so that the enthalpy input to the system is just E{cell}.I rather than (E{cell} - E{thermoneutral, bath}).I as in our "open" calorimeters. We find it interesting that Douglas Morrison will now countenance the introduction of intense local "hot spots" on the recombiners (what is more in the gas phase!) whereas in the earlier parts of his critique he objects to the possible creation of microscopic "hot spots" on the electrode surfaces in contact with the solution. We consider this criticism from Douglas Morrison to be invalid and inapplicable. In the first place it is inapplicable because the term E{thermoneutral,bath}.I (which we require in our analysis) is known with high precision (it is determined by the enthalpy of formation of D{2}0 from D{2} and 1/2 0{2}). In the second place it is inapplicable because the term itself is [[approx.]] 0.77 Watt whereas we are measuring a total enthalpy output of [[approx.]]170 Watts in the last stages of the experiment. (vii) We observe here that if we had followed the advice to use isothermal calorimetry for the main part of our work, then we would have been unable to take advantage of the "positive feedback" to drive the system into regions of high excess enthalpy generation (perhaps, stated more exactly, we would not have found that there is such positive feedback). The fact that there is such feedback was pointed out by Michael McKubre at the Third Annual Conference of Cold Fusion and strongly endorsed by one of us (M.F.). As this issue had then been raised in public, we have felt free to comment on this point in our papers (although we have previously drawn attention to this fact in private discussions). We note that Douglas Morrison was present at the Third Annual Conference on Cold Fusion. (viii) While it is certainly true that the calorimetric methods need to be evolved, we do not believe that an emphasis on isothermal calorimetry will be useful. For example, we can identify three major requirements at the present time: a) the design of calorimeters which allow charging of the electrodes at low thermal inputs and temperatures below 50 degrees C followed by operation at high thermal outputs and temperatures above 100 degrees C b) the design of calorimeters which allow the exploration of Stage 5 of the experiments c) the design of calorimeters having a wide frequency response in order to explore the transfer functions of the systems. We note that c) will in itself lead to calorimeters having an accuracy which could hardly be rivalled by other methods. (ix) Douglas Morrison's critique implies that we have never used calorimetric techniques other than that described in our recent paper [2]. Needless to say, this assertion is incorrect. It is true, however, that we have never found a technique which is more satisfactory than the isoperibolic method which we have described. It is also true that this is the only method which we have found so far which can be implemented within our resources for the number of experiments which we consider to be necessary. In our approach we have chosen to achieve accuracy by using software; others may prefer to use hardware. The question as to which is the wiser choice is difficult to answer: it is a dilemma which has to be faced frequently in modern experimental science. We observe also that Douglas Morrison regards complicated instrumentation (three feedback regulators working in series) as being "simple" wheres he regards data analysis as being complicated. Douglas Morrrison also asserts that we have never used more than one thermistor in our experimentation and he raises this issue in connection with measurements on cells driven to boiling. Needless to say, this assertion is also incorrect. However, further to this remark is it necessary for us to point out that *one does not need any temperature measurement in order to determine the rate of boiling of a liquid?* (x) Douglas Morrison evidently has difficulties with our application of non-linear regression methods to fit the integrals of the differential equations to the experimental data. Indeed he has such an idee fixe regarding this point that he maintains that we used this method in our recent paper [2]; we did not do so (see also 'stage 3 calculations' above). However, we note that we find his attitude to the Levenberg-Marquardt algorithm hard to understand. It is one of the most powerful, easily implemented "canned software" methods for problems of this kind. A classic text for applications of this algorithm [12] has been praised by most prominent physics journals and magazines. (xi) Douglas Morrison's account contains numerous misleading comments and descriptions. For example, he refers to our calorimeters as "small transparent test tubes". It is hard for us to understand why he chooses to make such misleading statements. In this particular case he could equally well have said "glass Dewar vessels silvered in their top portion" (which is accurate) rather than "small transparent test tubes" (which is not). Alternatively, if he did not wish to provide an accurate description, he could simply have referred readers to Fig 2 of our paper [2]. This type of misrepresentation is a non-trivial matter. We have never used calorimeters made of test-tubes since we do not believe that such devices can be made to function satisfactorily. (xii) As a further example of Douglas Morrison's inaccurate reporting, we quote his last paragraph in full: "It is interesting to note that the Fleischmann and Pons paper compares their claimed power production with that from nuclear reactions in a nuclear reactor and this is in line with their dramatic claims (9) that **"`SIMPLE EXPERIMENT' RESULTS IN SUSTAINED N-FUSION AT ROOM TEMPERATURE FOR THE FIRST TIME**: breakthrough process has potential to provide inexhaustible source of energy". It may be noted that the present paper does not mention "Cold Fusion" nor indeed consider a possible nuclear source for the excess heat claimed." Douglas Morrison's reference (9) reads: Press release, University of Utah, 23 March 1989. With regard to this paragraph we note that: a) our claim that the phenomena cannot be explained by chemical or conventional physical processes is based on the energy produced in the various stages and not the power output b) the dramatic claim he refers to was made by the Press Office of the University of Utah and not by us c) we did not coin the term "Cold Fusion" and have avoided using this term except in those instances where we refer to other research workers who have described the system in this way. Indeed, if readers refer to our paper presented to the Third International Conference on Cold Fusion [13] (which contains further information about some of the experiments described in [2]), they will find that we have not used the term there. Indeed, we remain as convinced as ever that the excess energy produced cannot be explained in terms of the conventional reaction paths of "Hot Fusion" d) it has been widely stated that the editor of this journal "did not allow us to use the term Cold Fusion". This is not true: he did not forbid us from using this term as we never did use it (see also [13]). (xiii) in his section "Conclusions", Douglas Morrison makes the following summary of his opinion of our paper: **The experiment and some of the calculations have been described as "simple". This is incorrect - the process involving chaotic motion, is complex and may appear simple by incorrectly ignoring important factors. It would have been better to describe the experiments as "poor" rather than "simple".** We urge the readers of this journal to consult the original text [2] and to read Douglas Morrison's critique [1] in the context of the present reply. They may well then come to the conclusion that our approach did after all merit the description "simple" but that the epithet "poor" should be attached to Douglas Morrision's critique. *Our own conclusions* We welcome the fact that Douglas Morrison has decided to publish his criticisms of our work in the conventional scientific literature rather than relying on the electronic mail, comments to the press and popular talks; we urge his many correspondees to follow his example. Following this traditional pattern of publication will ensure that their comments are properly recorded for future use and that the rights of scientific referees will not be abrogated. Furthermore, it is our view that a return to this traditional pattern of communication will in due course eliminate the illogical and hysterical remarks which have been so evident in the messages on the electronic bulletins and in the scientific tabloid press. If this proves to be the case, we may yet be able to return to a reasoned discussion of new research. Indeed, critics may decide that the proper course of inquiry is to address a personal letter to authors of papers in the first place to seek clarification of inadequately explained sections of publications. Apart from the general description of stages 1-5, we find that the comments made by Douglas Morrison are either irrelevant or inaccurate or both. *References* [1] Douglas Morrison, Phys. Lett. A. [2] M.Fleischmann andd S. Pons, Phys. Lett. A 176 (1993) 1 [3] to be published [4] M.Fleischmann, S.Pons, M.W.Anderson, L.J. Li, and M. Hawkins, J. Electroanal. Chem. 287 (1990) 293. [5] R.H. Wilson, J.W. Bray, P.G. Kosky, H.B. Vakil, and F.G Will, J. Electroanal. Chem. 332 (1992) 1 [6] M.Fleischmann and S.Pons, J.Electroanal.Chem. 332 (1992) 33 [7] S. Pons and M.Fleischmann in : Final Report to the Utah State Energy Advisory Council, June 1991. [8] G. Kreysa, G. Marx, and W.Plieth, J. Electroanal. Chem. 268 (1989)659 [9] M. Fleischmann and S. Pons, J. Electroanal. Chem. 261 (1989)301 [10] W.Hansen, Report to the Utah State Fusion Energy Council on the Analysis of Selected Pons-Fleischmann Calorimetric Data, in: "The Science of Cold Fusion": Proc. Second Annual Conf. on Cold Fusion, Como, Italy, 29 June-4 July 1991, eds T. Bressani, E. del Guidice and G. Preparaata, Vol 33 of the Conference Proceedings of the Italian Physical Society (Bologna, 1992) p491; ISBN-887794--045-X [11] T. Droege: private communication to Douglas Morrison. [12] W.H. Press, B.P. Flannery, S.A. Teukolsky, and W.T. Vetterling, "Numerical Recipes", Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1989. [13] M.Fleischmann and S. Pons "Frontiers of Cold Fusion" ed. H. Ikegami, Universal Academy Press Inc., Tokyo, 1993, p47; ISBN 4-946-443-12-6 ------------------------------------------------------------ * End Of File * From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 10:35:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA22693; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:25:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:25:32 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:25:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704181725.NAA13702 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <970417225840_1087108998 emout05.mail.aol.com> (FZNIDARSIC@aol.com) Subject: Re: can anyone offer a review Resent-Message-ID: <"NTO8r1.0.VY5.BwwLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > The total number of collisions in the Yusmar system is. > # of implosions x the number of molecules per implosion > Each cavitation bubble is about 500 nanometers is diameter. > It 3 will be assumed that water is incompressible and > maintains a weight of 1 gram per cubic centimeter. Lost me big time here. If you really have a cavitation void there will be no molecules inside, if it is a steam bubble then the number of molecules will depend on the temperature and internal pressure. But what you really care about is the number of molecules in the bubble wall just before final collapse. You may do better by figuring the amount of energy involved in the collapse, then dividing by the temperature. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 10:37:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA24455; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:30:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:30:10 -0700 Date: 18 Apr 97 13:27:19 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Flow rate at Power-Gen Message-ID: <970418172718_72240.1256_EHB57-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"O6vNU2.0.zz5.Y-wLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little writes that Galileo's method works "IF you have a nominally constant flow rate." Yes, that is essential. He adds: Dennis Cravens told me that the notorious 1 kilowatt Patterson cell rig used an aquarium pump which is a centrifugal type pump that is not constant displacement. He said it was important to hold the hose at the right height when making the stopwatch-cylinder measurements so the pump would be seeing the same head pressure as it was during the experiment. Sounded a bit dicey to me. I doubt that is what he told you. He said, as I recall, people may object to these results because they may think this is a problem. Centrifugal pumps are known to be more sensitive to blockages and pressure changes than constant displacement pumps. Therefore, he and I made sure this was not a problem. We measured the flow rate as low as we could, and we measured it as high as the hoses would allow. We found no measurable difference. I went home and tried some of my el-cheapo pond & aquarium pumps, low and high. I found no measurable difference. Anyone who doubts that should go get an aquarium pump and try it. If you pump water up to your second floor you will find a big difference. It probably would not make it up that high. But within a meter up or down you will not be able measure the flow rate difference, using a stopwatch and cylinder. It is not a dicey, but it is something you must check for. We did check, so the issue is closed. In particular, he may have thus been ignoring some important head losses that existed in the plumbing down stream from the point at which he disconnected the hose. This would result in a larger flow during the flow-rate measurement. That cannot be. The temperature of the fluid would have fluctuated rapidly if the flow rate had jumped each time we measured the flow. My el-cheap thermistor only reads the temperature every 10 seconds, but the digits on display of TC's in the flow changed rapidly. Dennis and I NEVER ignore important head losses. We look for them, using every method we can think of. I had three days to think of them -- I had nothing else to do -- and he had two months. In any case, as Dennis and I have pointed out many times, even a 50% error on those measurements would make no practical or scientific difference. When input is 1 watt, the output can be 1200 watts or 600 watts. Who cares? It could be 90% wrong and there would still be no question about it. You might as well argue over whether the Alamogordo test was 20 kilotons or 30. Either way, the atom bomb was WAY BEYOND chemistry. No chemical bomb that size could have caused that much of a bang. No chemical device could have done what the Power-Gen device done. None could even come close. A chemical effect at that power level would have ended within seconds. The Power-Gen gadget was never intended to be a good calorimeter. To the contrary, it was deliberately made in a crude fashion, to obfuscate the issue. However, it did prove the point. There is no way you could avoid proving the point at such high power levels. I wish the machine had been more elegantly constructed. A flow meter and a computer would have been wonderful. But to argue that the flow rate was actually 1 ml per minute -- which is what it would have to be to eliminate the excess heat -- is to engage in an absurd fantasy. Nobody anywhere, no matter how careless, could ever confuse one drop per minute with one liter. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 11:15:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA24848; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:03:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704181803.OAA13827 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (Schaffer@gav.gat.com) Subject: Re: Swartz's question re: stripping energy Resent-Message-ID: <"jageA.0.A46.IUxLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael J. Schaffer (Schaffer gav.gat.com) said: > However, stellarators do work quite well. They have received much > less funding world wide than tokamaks, but much of what is learned > in the simpler tokamaks can be transfered to stellarators. Yes. One of the main advantages of a stellarator over a tokamak is that a stellarator is a continuous operation device. A tokamak by its nature can't confine a plasma for more than a few seconds. I'm not talking about the measure of confinement time, but of the fact that a tokamak must quench the plasma into the walls every few seconds. Makes designing a wall for a power generating tokamak tough. I'm glad to hear that there is ongoing work on stellarators, since if the tokamak crowd comes up with a power generating configuration, it will require a configuration which can store hot plasma during field reversals... Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 11:32:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA06902; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:22:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:22:59 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:15:34 -0500 (GMT) From: Carlos Henry Castano To: grupo de discusion Subject: Flow.... In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"__0Zc3.0.lh1.3mxLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > In a low-power Patterson flow calorimeter, the flow rate is 1 cm^3/s or > less. I looked around some and did not find an accurate flow meter at low > price for that flow range. Therefore, in our experiments we used a > graduated cylinder and stopwatch. Low tech, but effective. Yes, I agree, if you want be more precise, use a analitical balace to weigh the water, and if you want kept the flow constant use a tank rise of constant volume (i use a old sanitary tank and i be able to put the flow in any value with about of 1/1000 ml/seg of precision). Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo Ingeniero Quimico Laboratorio de Electroquimica Universidad Nacional de Colombia, Sede Medellin. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 11:44:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA29971; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:38:31 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:37:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970418143606_251071004 emout13.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: review Resent-Message-ID: <"wMgF91.0.BK7.b-xLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks for your input. I've tried again. It seem that the press and temps inside of a sono bubble are just 100 times to small for fusion to take place. I've refined my units taking note of the units that Merryman called to my attention. The idea of cross section seems to apply more to accelerated particles moving against a fixed target. I am sill having some trouble applying it to bubble collapse. Perhaps I should look at the process as the reverse of alpha decay. Attached is my second attempt. 4/97 CAVITATION INDUCED FUSION CAVITATION INDUCED FUSION by Frank Znidarsic PE ABSTRACT ABSTRACT Several processes that involve cavitation are claimed to produce anomalous energy. These process can be classified into two categories. 1. Cavitation impinging upon the surface of a metal. (Work conducted by Russ George at E-Quest Sciences) 2. Cavitation within the body of a fluid. (Work conducted by Yury Potapov at the Visor Scientific Co. in Moldova) Cavitation can be produced by three processes. 1. Through the rotation of an impeller. (Work conducted by Jim Griggs at Hydrodynamics) 2. Through the use of ultrasonic transducers. (Russ George at E-Quest Sciences) 3. Though the use of a venturi tube. (Yury Potapov) MECHANICAL DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS MECHANICAL DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS The "Griggs Machine" produces cavitation through the use of a specially designed impeller. This design has mechanical limitations. The cavitation tends to erode the impeller and knock the machine out of balance. E-Quest's technique employs ultra-sonic transducers. The efficiency of electronic transducers is low. Only a limited number of cavitational reaction sites can be produced. Potapov's Yusmar device employs a venturi to produce voids in the fluid. These voids are then forced into a high pressure centrifuge. Cavitation is produced in the fluid in the centrifuge away from any metal surface. The Yusmar does not suffer from the mechanical balance problems of the "Griggs Machine". Potapov's Yusmar appears to efficiently produce cavitation bubbles. When properly adjusted the number of cavitational reaction sites numbers in the tens of thousands. YUSMAR HYDRAULIC DESIGN YUSMAR HYDRAULIC DESIGN The pressure of the circulating water is reduced in the venturi to less than 5 PSI absolute (less than 9 PSI vacuum). Bernoulli's equations describe the pressure reduction produced within a well designed venturi. Kinetic Energy = Potential Energy 1/2 mV^2 = mgh The fluid flow through the venturi should be a laminer as possible. The steam tables revel that water flashes into steam at 5 PSI absolute at 160 degrees F. The Yusmar system should be operated at or above this temperature. Atomization is the key to process. The venturi should be designed to produce thousands of tiny voids at its operating temperature and pressure. NUCLEAR CONSIDERATIONS NUCLEAR CONSIDERATIONS In order to obtain a reasonable reaction cross section water containing at least 35% deuterium must be employed as the operating fluid. The most likely reaction is: D + D = He^3 + n (q = 3.3 Mev/reaction) Published reports indicate that the temperature and pressure within a collapsing cavitation bubble may reach 1,000,000 deg K and 100 million atmospheres for a duration of one pico-second. 1 The temperature is inferred by considering that the blue sonolumenscent flash is produced by the tail of a thermal black body emission. The center of such a thermal distribution produces light in the ultra-violet spectrum. The wavelength at the center of the black body emission spectrum is about ten nano-meters. E = hc/wavelength E = hc/(10 x 1^-9 meters) = 120 electron volts One hundred and twenty electrons volts represents a temperature of: Temp = 2/3(KE)/k = 2/3(120ev)/(8.6 x 1^-5 ev/degK) Temp = 930,000 deg K The temperature is about one hundredth of that required in conventional hot fusion reactors. The total cross section for D + D at 120 electron volts is very low ( 10^-5 barns). One barn 2 equals 10^-28 square meters. The cross section for reaction is therefore 10^-33 square meters. The total cross section is a measure of probability that an incident particle will react with the target. Conventional inertial confinement fusion is designed on the basis that 10 to 100 fuel pellets may be explode each second. The Yusmar device, in contrast, can produce 10,000 cavitation bubbles per second. The incident flux density can be determined from the number of molecules involved in the reaction. Each cavitation bubble is about 500 nanometers is diameter. It 3 will be assumed that water is incompressible and maintains a weight of 1 gram per cubic centimeter. Therefore: # Molecules = (# density) x (volume) (1g/.00000mmm )(6.02 x 10^23mol/gram)(4/3(3.14)(250x10^9meters)^3 ) Such a bubble may hold 4 x 1^10 molecules. Assuming that each molecule can make 10 collisions per bubble collapse and that 10,000 bubbles are produced each second the number of collisions is: 10collisions(4 x 10^10)(10,000) = 4 x 10^15 collisions/sec The incident flux density is = #Collissions / area I = (4 x 10^15 particles/sec)/(3.14)(250 x 10^-9meters)^2 = 2 x 10^28 particles/m^2 -second The number of molecules undergoing a reaction equals: (incident particles/mm -sec) x reaction cross section (2 x10^28 /second-mm )(1 x 10^-33M )^2 = 20 x 10^-6 fusion reactions per second. The energy delivered is: 20 x 01^-6 reactions x 3.3 Mev/reaction = 70 ev/second 70 ev/second x 1.6 x 01^-19 joules/ev = .01 fermi watt CONCLUSION CONCLUSION Cavitational fusion reactors cannot produce useable energy through the use of conventional hot fusion reactions. NOTES NOTES 1. "Can Sound Drive Fusion in a Bubble" SCIENCE vol 266 page 1804 2. "Introductory Nuclear Physics" Kenneth S. Krane Pg. 532 3. "Sound, light and the vacuum" Nature, vol 381 page 736  From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 11:44:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA29299; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970418122909.009ec550 esa.lanl.gov> X-Sender: claytor_t_n esa.lanl.gov X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:32:55 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Thomas N. Claytor" Subject: Re: flow rate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"pAq9o2.0.c97.QwxLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael, Just to jump in here with a note about the flow rate thing; the flow with our peristaltic pump from Cole Parmer (Masterflex 7425-10) dropped about 15% after two weeks of running due to hose degradation. So it's not a given it will be steady with every system. Tom. At 09:43 AM 4/18/97 -0800, you wrote: >>At 07:39 4/18/97 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >> >>>In a low-power Patterson flow calorimeter, the flow rate is 1 cm^3/s or >>>less. I looked around some and did not find an accurate flow meter at low >>>price for that flow range. Therefore, in our experiments we used a >>>graduated cylinder and stopwatch. Low tech, but effective. >> >>Yes, IF you have a nominally constant flow rate. >> >We used a peristaltic pump. Its flow was very stable, as determined by >lots and lots of our graduated cylinder measurements, which we made >frequently throughtout any run. > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > > > http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm Thomas N. Claytor Claytor_t_n lanl.gov Los Alamos National Laboratory ESA-MT, MS C914 Los Alamos NM, 87545 505-667-6216 voice 505-665-7176 fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 12:22:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA26760; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:41:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:41:50 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:43:57 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: flow rate Resent-Message-ID: <"C8WDR.0._X6.T9xLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 07:39 4/18/97 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > >>In a low-power Patterson flow calorimeter, the flow rate is 1 cm^3/s or >>less. I looked around some and did not find an accurate flow meter at low >>price for that flow range. Therefore, in our experiments we used a >>graduated cylinder and stopwatch. Low tech, but effective. > >Yes, IF you have a nominally constant flow rate. > We used a peristaltic pump. Its flow was very stable, as determined by lots and lots of our graduated cylinder measurements, which we made frequently throughtout any run. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 12:44:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA19385; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:33:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:33:52 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970418123524.00aa26a0 aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:35:26 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: More Gore gaffes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"XsiTX.0.pk4.VoyLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:08 AM 4/18/97 EDT, you wrote: >To: Vortex > >Oh, I knew that! I wasn't quibbling with Gore's arithmetic. I figured you get >about 19 lbs of CO2 from 7 lbs of gasoline. I thought it was funny that he >hopes to change the proportions, and get *less* CO2 per pound. He probably did >not mean that -- I hope he didn't! -- but that is how it came out. That's >sloppy editing. There are many other awkward sentences and poorly researched >ideas in the book. > He devotes a couple of pages to the "1855 Chief Seattle >letter," without mentioning that most experts say it is a 20th century fake. not entirely true. it would be a 19th century fake and most local experts (Seattle history buffs) would say that it is a literary adaptation of Chief Seattle's utterances, so it does, in regard to its basic attitudes and values, reflect an Ameri-Indian mentality. >He makes a ham-handed attack on scientific objectivity. He ends up blaming >Francis Bacon for the Third Reich, on page 256: > > Although [Plato] searched for a single cause behind all things, he > attempted to discern their nature by locating them in relation to only > one point of reference -- human intellect rather than through a process > of philosophical triangulation, which would have relied on two points, > humankind and the Creator (or what could also be called a single cause). > By assuming that the human intellect is not anchored in a context of > meaningful relationships, with both the physical world and the Creator, > Plato assured that later explanations of the workings of the world would > become progressively more abstract. > shows no comprehension of Plato whatsoever > Francis Bacon is a case in point. His moral confusion -- the confusion > at the heart of much of modern science -- came from his assumption, > echoing Plato, that human intellect could safely analyze and understand > the natural world without reference to any moral principles defining our > relationship and duties to both God and God's creation. Bacon, for > example, was able to enthusiastically advocate vivisection for the pure > joy of learning without reference to any moral purpose, such as saving > human lives, as justification for the act. > totally false; fundamental mis-statement of Bacon's position; Bacon's real position is 180 degrees; the confusion which Gore's third rate ghost author probably got came from Bacon's tacit rejection of the dead hand of medievel churchianity. > And tragically, since the onset of the scientific and technological > revolution, it has seemingly become all too easy for ultrarational minds > to create an elaborate edifice of clockwork efficiency capable of > nightmarish cruelty on an industrial scale. The atrocities of Hitler and > Stalin, and the mechanical sins of all who helped them might have been > inconceivable except for the separation of facts from values and > knowledge from morality. > this is okay as far as it goes but the attribution to this state of affairs should be made to the surge of atheistic materialism which came after the Renaissance as an effort to reject all of the religious and occult suppositions about the world in order to take a fresh look from the ground up. this approach obviously has its use and power, but has its limits precisely where one begins to actually engineer with the science - at that point one cannot avoid moral issues although pretense that one can has been developed to a very high art. >Oy veh! If this written by an ordinary fruitcake it would be of no importance. >But the author is a heartbeat away from the presidency, as the expression >goes. Who says philosophy makes no difference? > >- Jed > right on again Jed. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 12:52:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA10328 for billb@eskimo.com; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:52:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: roshicorp roshi.com Fri Apr 18 12:52:22 1997 Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA10286 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from roshi.com (pool011.maxb.los-angeles.ca.us.dynip.earthlink.net [206.250.113.61]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA03027 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:51:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Chuck Davis To: Michael Mandeville Old-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:47:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418123524.00aa26a0 aa.net> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.4 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: More Gore gaffes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: On 18-Apr-97, Michael Mandeville wrote: >this is okay as far as it goes but the attribution to this state of affairs >should be made to the surge of atheistic materialism which came after the >Renaissance as an effort to reject all of the religious and occult >suppositions about the world in order to take a fresh look from the ground >up. this approach obviously has its use and power, but has its limits >precisely where one begins to actually engineer with the science - at that >point one cannot avoid moral issues although pretense that one can has been >developed to a very high art. Yes. Our Marxist/Socialist leaders are handcuffing us with *JUNK SCIENCE* -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 13:36:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA26807; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:10:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:10:40 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:14:51 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: can anyone offer a review Resent-Message-ID: <"KEL6X.0.iY6.-KzLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:59 PM 4/17/97, FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: >Comments needed....part of my class project and possible NASA proposal. [snip] > Cavitation can be produced by three processes. > > 1. Through the rotation of an impeller. > (Work conducted by Jim Griggs at Hydrodynamics) > > 2. Through the use of ultrasonic transducers. > (Russ George at E-Quest Sciences) > > 3. Though the use of a venturi tube. > (Yury Potapov) Cavitation can be produced by many processes including boiling, fluidic circuits, charged particles (e.g. bubble chambers), and sparks. Sparks and fluidic circuits, both capble of achieving over 10,000 PSI shock waves, are also feasible methods of driving the compression spikes. > > MECHANICAL DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS > > The "Griggs Machine" produces cavitation through the use of a > specially designed impeller. This design has mechanical > limitations. The cavitation tends to erode the impeller and > knock the machine out of balance. > > E-Quest's technique employs ultra-sonic transducers. The > efficiency of electronic transducers is low. Only a limited > number of cavitational reaction sites can be produced. Equest reports about 25 percent efficiency in their transducers (IE Vol 1 No1). Surely this can be greatly improved! > > Potapov's Yusmar device employs a venturi to produce voids in > the fluid. These voids are then forced into a high pressure > centrifuge. This is a lengthy process - migrating the bubble from a low pressure formation region to a high pressure (centrifuge) region. It does not seem that this can produce sonoluminescence at all. Surely, if SL is evident in the YUSMAR (is there *any* such evidence?), it must have sonic causes. The simulation work by Moss et al, Physics Letters A, 16 Nov., 1995, involved roughly 1 bar changes at 27.6 kHz. They got much improved results adding a 5 bar 0.5 us spike. The bubble size Moss used was much larger than you are estimating, having a minimum radius of 0.38x10^-6 m at maximum collapse, and gaining a 2200 eV peak. However, with all that, and assuming a pure D bubble, Moss estimates only one neutron per 2x10^8 flashes. >Cavitation is produced in the fluid in the > centrifuge away from any metal surface. The Yusmar does not > suffer from the mechanical balance problems of the "Griggs > Machine". > > Potapov's Yusmar appears to efficiently produce cavitation > bubbles. When properly adjusted the number of cavitational > reaction sites is in the tens of thousands. Forming bubbles is not the problem, especially if you provide formation sites in a boiling (due to temp/pressure combination) fluid . It is shocking them in (or into) the compression cycle that's the problem. The problem is one of both timing and adequate pressure. Another problem, if you are so lucky as to generate steam and/or oxygen, hydrogen, or helium, is quickly moving these waste products out of the bubble compression area in order to save compression efficiency. Equest's method achieves this in part by injecting the bubble into the metal surface, which aborbs it, at least in part. I have suggested a flow of metal particulates through the acitve area as a means of maintaining the required conditions. [snip] > > Atomization is the key to process. The venturi should be > designed to produce thousands of tiny voids at its operating > temperature and pressure. If it is true that atomization is the key, then one could simply infuse the heavy water with lots of D2 bubbles by forcing D2 gas through a porous stone bubbler. Anternately, the bubbles could be formed on a target metal surface via electrolysis. I have formed Brown's gas on surfaces over about a 6" gap using 15 KV AC current. It should be feasible to form Brown's gas on free floatin metal particulates. > > NUCLEAR CONSIDERATIONS > > In order to obtain a reasonable reaction cross section water > containing at least 35% deuterium must be employed as the > operating fluid. The most likely reaction is: > > D + D = H3e + n (q = 3.3 Me >v/reaction) > Don't know of any reports of significant neutron detection, even with highly optimized SBSL or MBSL systems. Do you? Don't know of any data to suppport conclusion YUSMAR can actually even achieve MBSL. Even if so, the above reaction can not possibly account for the YUSMAR's (or Grigg's or Equest's) heat, due to the fact that the operators are still alive. A big question is where can the heat come from without the expected nuclear signature? To get significant government effort to look at this question, you have to show that there *is* excess heat. There is also the issue that the YUSMARs that are purported to be working using light water. Is there any report that YUSMARs are working with heavy water? The only known (assumed) working models are not here in the USA. That leaves a few choices (1) visit a working site with an unbiased team prepared to measure and report (done at least once without success) or (2) assume the YSMAR does not work an be done with it, or (3) make one work. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 13:47:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA30073; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:34:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:34:04 -0700 From: Chuck Davis To: Michael Mandeville Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:47:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418123524.00aa26a0 aa.net> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.4 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: More Gore gaffes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"m3AQ-2.0.lL7.ygzLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 18-Apr-97, Michael Mandeville wrote: >this is okay as far as it goes but the attribution to this state of affairs >should be made to the surge of atheistic materialism which came after the >Renaissance as an effort to reject all of the religious and occult >suppositions about the world in order to take a fresh look from the ground >up. this approach obviously has its use and power, but has its limits >precisely where one begins to actually engineer with the science - at that >point one cannot avoid moral issues although pretense that one can has been >developed to a very high art. Yes. Our Marxist/Socialist leaders are handcuffing us with *JUNK SCIENCE* -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 13:47:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA25230; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:05:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:05:06 -0700 Date: 18 Apr 97 16:03:16 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Giant paper from Arata Message-ID: <970418200315_72240.1256_EHB115-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Q4k-Z.0.8A6.mFzLp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I just received a 56-page paper by Arata. It takes up an entire Special Issue of the Journal of High Temperature Society. It is in English. Very good English too, unlike Arata's other papers. It is: Y. Arata and Yue-Chang Zhang, "Solid-State Plasma Fusion ('Cold Fusion')," Journal of High Temperature Society, Special Volume, Vol. 23, Jan. 1997 I have just glanced at this paper. It appears to cover the experiments and the "latticequake" theory. I would post the abstract, but it is full of superscripts and subscripts, making it difficult to reproduce in this medium. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 14:04:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA15540; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:23:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:25:15 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Swartz's question re: stripping energy Resent-Message-ID: <"76Xke.0.ko3.GXzLp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Eachus said: > > Yes. One of the main advantages of a stellarator over a tokamak is >that a stellarator is a continuous operation device. A tokamak by its >nature can't confine a plasma for more than a few seconds. I'm not >talking about the measure of confinement time, but of the fact that a >tokamak must quench the plasma into the walls every few seconds. >Makes designing a wall for a power generating tokamak tough. > > I'm glad to hear that there is ongoing work on stellarators, since >if the tokamak crowd comes up with a power generating configuration, >it will require a configuration which can store hot plasma during >field reversals... Actually, the above is some 20-25 years out of date. Plasma at 10s of keV for thermonuclear fusion have amazingly high electrical conductivity, orders of magnitude greater than Cu. Therefore, once the thing gets going, the current can be maintained for ~1000 sec, even by transformer action alone. However, economic and engineering studies show that a steady state reactor would be much better than one that had to be stopped and restarted even as little as once per hour. (It has to be restarted, because plasma cannot be confined in an axisymmetric torus by toroidal field alone; there must be poloidal field, and in a tokamak that means non-zero toroidal plasma current.) The contemporary approach is to sustain a steady state toroidal current by a combination of 'bootstrap' (a physical process wherein the plasma can produce a substantial fraction of its needed current) and EM waves launched from outside. There are various kinds of wave current drive, and this is presently a topic of both theoretical and experimental research. However, they all rely on getting a wave to push plasma electrons preferentially in one direction. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 14:31:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA06810; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:18:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:18:50 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:18:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704182118.QAA20476 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Flow rate at Power-Gen Resent-Message-ID: <"Dh8Xa.0.Jg1.vK-Lp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 13:27 4/18/97 EDT, Jed wrote about Dennis Cravens' statement that it was important to hold the hose at the right height during flow measurement. >I doubt that is what he told you. Jed, you should know me better than that by now. I'm not going to make a potentially controversial statement like that without good reason. Dennis said exactly that in casual conversation at the Hampton Inn in Urbana IL on the evening of 11DEC96. The next day we both attended Miley's Rifex kit seminar on the UIL campus. I'm not saying that there WAS a problem with flow rate measurements. I'm glad to hear that you checked for obvious problems, etc. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 15:17:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA01814; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: "Scudder,Henry J" To: "FZNIDARSIC aol.com" , Vortex-L Subject: RE: review Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:08:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"j5tUc.0.GS.U7_Lp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank I just came across an interesting paper from Livermore on this topic. http://www.llnl.gov/llnl/05publications/jc120422/UCRL-JC-120422.pdf Hank ---------- From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: review Date: Friday, April 18, 1997 11:37AM Thanks for your input. I've tried again. It seem that the press and temps inside of a sono bubble are just 100 times to small for fusion to take place. I've refined my units taking note of the units that Merryman called to my attention. The idea of cross section seems to apply more to accelerated particles moving against a fixed target. I am sill having some trouble applying it to bubble collapse. Perhaps I should look at the process as the reverse of alpha decay. Attached is my second attempt. 4/97 CAVITATION INDUCED FUSION CAVITATION INDUCED FUSION by Frank Znidarsic PE ABSTRACT ABSTRACT Several processes that involve cavitation are claimed to produce anomalous energy. These process can be classified into two categories. 1. Cavitation impinging upon the surface of a metal. (Work conducted by Russ George at E-Quest Sciences) 2. Cavitation within the body of a fluid. (Work conducted by Yury Potapov at the Visor Scientific Co. in Moldova) Cavitation can be produced by three processes. 1. Through the rotation of an impeller. (Work conducted by Jim Griggs at Hydrodynamics) 2. Through the use of ultrasonic transducers. (Russ George at E-Quest Sciences) 3. Though the use of a venturi tube. (Yury Potapov) MECHANICAL DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS MECHANICAL DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS The "Griggs Machine" produces cavitation through the use of a specially designed impeller. This design has mechanical limitations. The cavitation tends to erode the impeller and knock the machine out of balance. E-Quest's technique employs ultra-sonic transducers. The efficiency of electronic transducers is low. Only a limited number of cavitational reaction sites can be produced. Potapov's Yusmar device employs a venturi to produce voids in the fluid. These voids are then forced into a high pressure centrifuge. Cavitation is produced in the fluid in the centrifuge away from any metal surface. The Yusmar does not suffer from the mechanical balance problems of the "Griggs Machine". Potapov's Yusmar appears to efficiently produce cavitation bubbles. When properly adjusted the number of cavitational reaction sites numbers in the tens of thousands. YUSMAR HYDRAULIC DESIGN YUSMAR HYDRAULIC DESIGN The pressure of the circulating water is reduced in the venturi to less than 5 PSI absolute (less than 9 PSI vacuum). Bernoulli's equations describe the pressure reduction produced within a well designed venturi. Kinetic Energy = Potential Energy 1/2 mV^2 = mgh The fluid flow through the venturi should be a laminer as possible. The steam tables revel that water flashes into steam at 5 PSI absolute at 160 degrees F. The Yusmar system should be operated at or above this temperature. Atomization is the key to process. The venturi should be designed to produce thousands of tiny voids at its operating temperature and pressure. NUCLEAR CONSIDERATIONS NUCLEAR CONSIDERATIONS In order to obtain a reasonable reaction cross section water containing at least 35% deuterium must be employed as the operating fluid. The most likely reaction is: D + D = He^3 + n (q = 3.3 Mev/reaction) Published reports indicate that the temperature and pressure within a collapsing cavitation bubble may reach 1,000,000 deg K and 100 million atmospheres for a duration of one pico-second. 1 The temperature is inferred by considering that the blue sonolumenscent flash is produced by the tail of a thermal black body emission. The center of such a thermal distribution produces light in the ultra-violet spectrum. The wavelength at the center of the black body emission spectrum is about ten nano-meters. E = hc/wavelength E = hc/(10 x 1^-9 meters) = 120 electron volts One hundred and twenty electrons volts represents a temperature of: Temp = 2/3(KE)/k = 2/3(120ev)/(8.6 x 1^-5 ev/degK) Temp = 930,000 deg K The temperature is about one hundredth of that required in conventional hot fusion reactors. The total cross section for D + D at 120 electron volts is very low ( 10^-5 barns). One barn 2 equals 10^-28 square meters. The cross section for reaction is therefore 10^-33 square meters. The total cross section is a measure of probability that an incident particle will react with the target. Conventional inertial confinement fusion is designed on the basis that 10 to 100 fuel pellets may be explode each second. The Yusmar device, in contrast, can produce 10,000 cavitation bubbles per second. The incident flux density can be determined from the number of molecules involved in the reaction. Each cavitation bubble is about 500 nanometers is diameter. It 3 will be assumed that water is incompressible and maintains a weight of 1 gram per cubic centimeter. Therefore: # Molecules = (# density) x (volume) (1g/.00000mmm )(6.02 x 10^23mol/gram)(4/3(3.14)(250x10^9meters)^3 ) Such a bubble may hold 4 x 1^10 molecules. Assuming that each molecule can make 10 collisions per bubble collapse and that 10,000 bubbles are produced each second the number of collisions is: 10collisions(4 x 10^10)(10,000) = 4 x 10^15 collisions/sec The incident flux density is = #Collissions / area I = (4 x 10^15 particles/sec)/(3.14)(250 x 10^-9meters)^2 = 2 x 10^28 particles/m^2 -second The number of molecules undergoing a reaction equals: (incident particles/mm -sec) x reaction cross section (2 x10^28 /second-mm )(1 x 10^-33M )^2 = 20 x 10^-6 fusion reactions per second. The energy delivered is: 20 x 01^-6 reactions x 3.3 Mev/reaction = 70 ev/second 70 ev/second x 1.6 x 01^-19 joules/ev = .01 fermi watt CONCLUSION CONCLUSION Cavitational fusion reactors cannot produce useable energy through the use of conventional hot fusion reactions. NOTES NOTES 1. "Can Sound Drive Fusion in a Bubble" SCIENCE vol 266 page 1804 2. "Introductory Nuclear Physics" Kenneth S. Krane Pg. 532 3. "Sound, light and the vacuum" Nature, vol 381 page 736  From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 15:39:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA20333; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:32:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:32:47 -0700 Date: 18 Apr 97 18:30:17 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Flow rate at Power-Gen Message-ID: <970418223016_72240.1256_EHB56-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"T0qRr2.0.cz4.EQ_Lp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I wrote to Scott: "I doubt that is what Cravens told you." That was rude, I apologize. I should have said: "I think you have misunderstood Cravens' concern. He is not truly worried about this issue, he is worried that other people will seize upon it." That was my impression of what he was saying at Power-Gen, when he discussed the weaknesses of the calorimetry. Scott writes: I'm not saying that there WAS a problem with flow rate measurements. I'm glad to hear that you checked for obvious problems, etc. And I am saying that even if there WAS a problem, and even if Dennis & I were a pair of world class idiots who never bothered to check anything, it is inconceivable that these results are totally in error. Think about it: the cell was palpably warm, and the water coming out of it was much warmer than the water going in. The water flow was enough splash around in the tank and move bubbles rapidly through a large tube, so it must have been more than, say, 100 ml/minute. The Radio Shack power supplies would have gone up in flames before delivering more than 5 watts. You CANNOT get palpable heat from a 40 ml body under these conditions with only 5 watts, or 1 watt, which is what we measured, or a half-watt, which is left after electrolysis. At ~1 watt input, you CANNOT get a positive Delta T at any flow rate, given the equipment, heat losses from the cell, and the distance from the cell to the outlet TC. Before electrolysis and CF began, the cell was *losing* more than a watt as the pre-heated cooling water passed through it. (Cooling water is pre-heated in the reservoir to prevent heat from leaking in to the calorimeter.) Errors on this scale in any combination of the three parameters are physically impossible: 1. An input error would have caused a fire. 2. The temperature difference was palpable. 3. Flow rate errors are irrelevant. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 15:46:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA21821; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:41:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:41:03 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:40:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704182240.SAA15103 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (Schaffer@gav.gat.com) Subject: Stellarator vs. Tokamak (was Re: Swartz's question re: stripping energy) Resent-Message-ID: <"5F46w.0.pK5.-X_Lp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael J. Schaffer (Schaffer gav.gat.com) said: > Actually, the above is some 20-25 years out of date. Plasma at > 10s of keV for thermonuclear fusion have amazingly high electrical > conductivity, orders of magnitude greater than Cu. Therefore, > once the thing gets going, the current can be maintained for ~1000 > sec, even by transformer action alone. However, economic and > engineering studies show that a steady state reactor would be much > better than one that had to be stopped and restarted even as > little as once per hour... I wouldn't say 20 years out of date. If you want to disagree with my few seconds fine, but as an engineer I'd like to average one quench a week or less. Those walls are going to get pretty dirty. (Relatively speaking any loose atoms on that wall with Z > 3 are going to be dirt.) And I have yet to see a believable tokamak power generating design that will make 1000 seconds. By the way, what ever happened to the idea of using charged beam injection as a steady state strategy? My real point was that if you get ignition in a tokamak, and can transition the plasma to a stellarator (or another tokamak), you are in fat city. AlcatorD was recently operated in a configuration with a figure eight cross-section, so it might be possible to have two simultaneous confinement areas in the same reaction chamber. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 16:05:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA08427; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:57:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970418155814.00a9bca0 aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:58:18 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Vortex Enlightenment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"VI8AP2.0.Z32.Cn_Lp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: with apologies to whomever I ripped this from >>Q: How many vortx mail list subscribers does it take >> to change a light bulb? >> >>A: 1,331: >> 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail >> list that the light bulb has been changed >> 14 to share similar experiences of changing light >> bulbs and how the light bulb could have been >> changed differently. >> 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. >> 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about >> changing light bulbs. >> 53 to flame the spell checkers >> 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about >> the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness >> to this mail list. >> 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. >> 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and >> to please take this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb >> 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, >> alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing >> light bulbs be stopped. >> 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we >> are all use light bulbs and therefore the posts >> **are** relevant to this mail list. >> 306 to debate which method of changing light >> bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, >> what brand of light bulbs work best for this >> technique, and what brands are faulty. >> 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of >> different light bulbs >> 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and >> to post corrected URLs. >> 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that >> are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs >> relevant to this list. >> 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote >> them including all headers and footers, and then >> add "Me Too." >> 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing >> because they cannot handle the light bulb >> controversey. >> 19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." >> 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. >> 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. >> 47 to say this is just what vortex >> was meant for, leave it here. >> 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 16:07:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA08340; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3357FBF3.3253 math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:55:47 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: mikec snip.net Subject: Re: Science Fair Transmutation References: <19970418112455677.AAA63 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qVpFH2.0.E22.Gm_Lp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Mike Carrell wrote: > > Barry, is there anything more on the young lady who did the Champion > experiment for a science fair? The Texas regional competition was a few days ago. I was told that she did not place at all. It seems that for this level of competition, each student had to interview with an examiner. In her case, the examiner told her in effect that transmuting lead into gold was impossible, and someone would have already gotten a nobel prize for it if it were. Thus her project was discmissed, without any detailed consideration. But, that is just as well. It means I get control of the remaining *unburned* material, so that I can do more assays on it to look for the initial presence of gold/silver. Recall I did two assays on the **unburned** (i.e. mixed up but not used) material before, and each show a little bit of gold, but more importantly an anomalously large amount of silver (~ 0.5 gm instead of 20 mg). I want to track down what was going on there. Perhaps it will end up explaining the apparently anomalous amount of gold and silver we saw in the burned material. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 16:31:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA11450; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <33580104.5A99 math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:17:24 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: flow rate References: <3.0.32.19970418122909.009ec550 esa.lanl.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8T23q1.0.qo2.W40Mp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6141 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas N. Claytor wrote: > > Michael, > > Just to jump in here with a note about the flow rate thing; > the flow with our peristaltic pump from Cole Parmer > (Masterflex 7425-10) dropped about .15% after two weeks of > running due to hose degradation. So it's not a given > it will be steady with every system. > You lab guys always get the good stuff. :-) I used an inexpensive peristaltic pump from VWR (shown on my webpage), with silicon tubing (the optimal recommended for consistent flow). It worked great, the flow would remain stable at 10 +/- 0.5 ml/min (as measured in my inline graduated cylinder), as suggested to me by Jed and a la' Cravens), for days at a time. Nearing 100 hours, the flow rate would begin to drop over the course of a few hours, and then the tubing would fail. But you could get 3+ solid days of consistent flow from a new piece of tubing. Defineitly good enough for the purpose of the experiment. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 17:07:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA05313; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:59:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:59:56 -0700 Reply-To: < snip.net> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Giant paper from Arata Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:30:59 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19970419000020581.AAA108 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"thYrt2.0.sI1.xh0Mp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6142 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, could you post it as an upload in Adobe Acrobat? Mike ---------- > From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> > To: Vortex > Subject: Giant paper from Arata > Date: Friday, April 18, 1997 3:03 PM > > To: Vortex > > I just received a 56-page paper by Arata. It takes up an entire Special Issue > of the Journal of High Temperature Society. It is in English. Very good > English too, unlike Arata's other papers. It is: > > Y. Arata and Yue-Chang Zhang, "Solid-State Plasma Fusion ('Cold Fusion')," > Journal of High Temperature Society, Special Volume, Vol. 23, Jan. 1997 > > I have just glanced at this paper. It appears to cover the experiments and the > "latticequake" theory. I would post the abstract, but it is full of > superscripts and subscripts, making it difficult to reproduce in this medium. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 17:12:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA17893; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: 18 Apr 97 20:05:36 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Vortex Enlightenment Message-ID: <970419000536_100433.1541_BHG38-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"ORnHU1.0.TN4.2p0Mp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6143 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael, Interesting .... this lightbulb stuff. However, as possibly the only (self-confessed) female in this group I must request that you add .... "Q: Why does it take 7 pre-menstrual women to change a light bulb? A: IT JUST DOES !!!!!!! " - Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 17:14:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA07767; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:12:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:12:47 -0700 Message-ID: <33580DCF.1110 worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:12:02 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; U; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Morrison vrs Fleischmann Part II References: <970418164044_72240.1256_EHB30-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"G2s7c3.0.Dv1.-t0Mp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6144 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed - [quoting from the paper] > We note at the outset that Douglas Morrison has not > drawn attention to the all important "blank > experiments" illustrated in Figs...[snip] Aha. So this *is* a standard "skeptical" procedure then. Ignore the calibration runs, and all the other data looks pretty questionable or ambiguous. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 18:12:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA26933; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:08:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:09:58 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Stellarator vs. Tokamak (was Re: Swartz's question re: stripping energy) Resent-Message-ID: <"0Dam9.0.la6.zh1Mp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6145 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Schaffer & Eachus continue... > >Those (thermonuclear fusion reactor) walls are going to get pretty >dirty. (Relatively speaking any loose atoms on that wall with Z > 3 >are going to be dirt.) We have come a long way. Walls don't get very "dirty" any more. >And I have yet to see a believable tokamak >power generating design that will make 1000 seconds. You havaen't kept up. >By the way, what >ever happened to the idea of using charged beam injection as a steady >state strategy? It's still around, but waves are looking better at the moment. >AlcatorD was recently operated in a configuration with a >figure eight cross-section, so it might be possible to have two >simultaneous confinement areas in the same reaction chamber. There has never been an Alcator D, just -A, -C and -C-MOD. None made figure-8 shapes. Could you be confusing with Doublet-I, -II, -III series, which were specifically built (at General Atomics!) for figure-8 plasma cross sections? Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 18:21:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA20130; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:16:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:16:07 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <33581CCE.223C math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:15:58 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A sporting chance? References: <970418155427_72240.1256_EHB33-2 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wcYeY3.0.Rw4.Lp1Mp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6146 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > I must ask: what is your job description? Do you think it is > appropriate for a professional scientist to make comments on a > body of work, and to try to replicate an experiment *without* > reading the literature?!? I read the literature that was relevant to the patterson experiment. Lest you forget, the CETI cell is lightwater-nickel-thinfilm---platedbeads. Thats about a million miles away from heavywater-Pd-bulkmetal. I don't need to digest all CF literature to address the Patterson cell. > Because it requires too much effort!!! If you find it is too much > work to read the literature and learn something about the subject, > fine. But in that case you have no business having any opinion Everyone has an opinion. What one should not have is a *conclusion*. I have opinions about CF, but no conclusion. Given that I work on fusion in general, I think it is pretty reasonable that I might have some opinions about the science of colf fusion, even if I have actually read in detail only a small (but nonzero) fraction of the cold fusion literature. > > You must judge the issues yourself. This is science, not Simon Says. I will, ultimately. But I don't see how this conflicts with asking someone else to suggest the best papers to read. I have news for you---this may be shocking, so hold onto your mouse---when a scientist is trying to learn about an area, they often ask *other people* to suggest particularly good sources, rather than simply blindly plunging into the literature. This is what other people (TM) are for, in my opinion. > > Ah, the PPPL 10 MJ run did not prove anything about plasma > fusion, because nobody has replicated the run. It has been replicated, by JET, with others to follow. But no, the original run strictly speaking did not prove anything in itself. They could have made errors in determining the power output, for example. There have been errors in the past in diagnosing plasmas. Also, for future reference, you are behind on your hot fusion milestones: the discovery of the Enhanced Reverse Shear mode in 1995 is the big discovery you should be questioning, since it is truly an entirely new operating regime, which, if it can be be made to behave, would make tokamak fusion reactors extremely viable as power plants without further improvements. >Top quarks don't exist. Maybe it doesn't. But there are at least two labs capable of replicating eachothers work, and I think they both claim to have found it. So, it will be hashed out via replication. Even if there is only a single faciltiy, different teams can conduct experiments, with different diagnostics and analyses. > The Alamogordo atom > bomb test did not prove fission bombs work. It was clear from prior experiment and theory that such a bomb should work. The test was an engineering demonstration. Of practical importance, but not a scientific advance. Jed: you seem to confuse establishing fundamental phenomena with demonstrations of known principles. Whether superconductivity exists is a question of fundamental physics. Whether I can build a useful wire out of superconducting materials is an engineering question. In the case of cold fusion, the question is whether it exists at all as a new phenomena. One experiment cannot prove this. > I'll mail Barry something from Pons and > Fleischmann, Miles, McKubre, and Storms. > I appreciate any papers you send. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 19:05:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA30698; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:02:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:02:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199704190202.WAA10720 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:20:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: (Fwd) a preferred direction in space? Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"c54mV1.0.aV7.nU2Mp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6147 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- To: physics intuition.org Subject: Re: a preferred direction in space? Reply-to: chronos enter.net Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:16:13 -0500 On 18 Apr 97 at 8:17, Topher Cooper wrote: > http://www.cc.rochester.edu/college/rtc/Borge/aniso.html, for a > summary of a paper to be published in PRL on Monday. > > Briefly evidence is presented that a) Over cosmological distances > polarized EM waves are rotated, and b) The degree to which this > happens depends on the direction. This is not a local phenomenon Here is a related blurb from AIP: The key phrase below is ".. as if the universe had an axis..." ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > From physnews aip.org Thu Apr 17 11:51:09 1997 > From: physnews aip.org > Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:32:38 -0500 > > PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE > The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News > Number 317 April 17, 1997 > by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein > > IS THE UNIVERSE BIREFRINGENT? That is, does universe > behave like a crystal in which light moving in one direction acts > differently from light going in another direction? Radio waves from > distant galaxies must pass through the vast reaches of an > intergalactic medium filled with stray magnetic fields and a tenuous > plasma of ions and electrons. Through a well-known phenomenon called > the Faraday effect, these ions and fields in the cosmic prairie > subtly rotate the polarization of the radio waves (the orientation > of their electric fields) on their way toward Earth. This is a very > slight effect but it has been measured in the case of light coming > from many galaxies; the effect is proportional to the magnetic field > strengths and ion densities, as well as the square of the light's > wavelength. (Typically about 5- 8% of the light from a galaxy is > plane polarized, most of this in the form of synchrotron radiation.) > Now two researchers, Borge Nodland at the University of Rochester > (bnod lle.rochester. edu; 716-275-5772) and John Ralston at the > University of Kansas (ralston kuphsx.phsx.ukans.edu; 913-864-4020), > have studied polarization rotation data for 160 galaxies and have > perceived that in addition to the Faraday effect, there seems to be > an extra mysterious angular dependency at work. Indeed, the rotation > varies consistently with the angle across the sky, as if the > universe had an axis. That is, the amount of polarization rotation > depends on the distance to a galaxy as well as on the cosine of the > angle between the incoming radio waves and an axis that apparently > lies in the direction of the constellation Sextans. This anomaly > would seem to challenge some important physics concepts, such as the > notion that there is no preferred direction in space and the notion > that space itself is isotropic (the same in all directions) or > homogeneous (the same in all places). One possible explanation might > be the existence of "domain walls" between different realms of the > cosmos, as prescribed in certain particle physics theories. The > soundness of their study depends, among other things, on the quality > and amount of polarization observations, and Nodland and Ralston > therefore look forward to acquiring additional data. (To appear in > Physical Review Letters, 21 April 1997; see figures at > www.aip.org/physnews/graphics. Reminder---science journalists can > obtain a copy of PRL articles by contacting AIP Public Information > at physnews aip.org) Best regards, Bob Flower ======================================================= Robert G. Flower, Applied Science Associates Quality Control Engineering Instrumentation Systems - Technology Transfer ======================================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 19:17:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA02301; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:14:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:14:41 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <33582A85.7735 math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:14:29 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A sporting chance? References: <970418155427_72240.1256_EHB33-2 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cM_853.0.oZ.Fg2Mp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6148 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Again, I must ask: what is your job description? I thank Jed for remininding me of what profession I am in. As long as we are discussing job titles, I seem to recall that Jed's is Cold Fusion Research Advcocate. I guess I'm naive, but I thought that meant that he would assist interested scientists in learning more about cold fusion research, and in particular suggest relevant literature. > > What do you do for a living? Are you an academic scientist, > a garbage collector, a cable installer, a sheep farmer? Actually, in my job I have laid computer cable and collected a lot of garbage. I have yet to raise any sheep, though. :-) But perhaps if you would spend less time advocating CF research to sheep farmers, and more time assisting us scientists, the field would move forward more quickly. ;-) -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 19:49:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA08383; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:47:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:47:51 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:47:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704190247.VAA09191 dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: Re: Giant paper from Arata To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: aki ix.netcom.com Resent-Message-ID: <"GcUEV.0.v22.M93Mp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6149 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 18, 1997 >I just received a 56-page paper by Arata. It takes up an entire >Special Issue of the Journal of High Temperature Society. It is in >English. Very good English too, unlike Arata's other papers. > Well! I guess he took my opinion to heart when he asked me at Sapporo about his english. I gave him my translation effort of one of his papers on the Double Cathode cold fusion results. A copy of the Japanese paper was furnished me by Jed in '94. Since he asked, I told him people were being too polite to point out the difficulty of understanding his english, it is rough. I guess with his stature there, nobody tells him he is talking naked. Even Zhang tried to be protective of him. I wonder if I'll receive a copy too. I left my request and address with him at the ICCF-6. Fat chance? :) -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 18 20:39:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA18946; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970418213203.009ef470 esa.lanl.gov> X-Sender: claytor_t_n esa.lanl.gov X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:32:03 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Thomas N. Claytor" Subject: Re: can anyone offer a review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gI8BY2.0.yd4.fp3Mp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve Jones has seen no neutron signals over background from single bubble sonoluminscence in D2O as of a few weeks ago. (He started doing this about two years ago and showed me a glowing bubble on one of my visits) In his tunnel in the Provo Canyon his background is about 1 neutron detected per hour (efficiency ~15%). I don't think he has the capability to add a spike to his driving pressure as Cal Moss suggests but if Cal's calculations are correct, one neutron every thirty hours (assuming a 30% efficient detector) is a tough detection problem. When we took our plasma experiment down to his tunnel (two years ago) we were alert to the possibility that we might see a neutron or two (due to hot fusion) by some anomalous effect. However, at the voltages (up to 3.5kV) and pressures (250 torr) we operate at, there is really no theoretical possibility by many orders of magnitude of any hot fusion. Only in one sample (of three) did we see a deviation from the background by 2 sigma in the neutron count and by strange coincidence that was the only sample of the three that subsequently released tritium in our post analysis. Tom. At 12:14 PM 4/18/97 -0800, you wrote: >At 10:59 PM 4/17/97, FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: >>Comments needed....part of my class project and possible NASA proposal. >[snip] >> Cavitation can be produced by three processes. >> >> 1. Through the rotation of an impeller. >> (Work conducted by Jim Griggs at Hydrodynamics) >> >> 2. Through the use of ultrasonic transducers. >> (Russ George at E-Quest Sciences) >> >> 3. Though the use of a venturi tube. >> (Yury Potapov) > > >Cavitation can be produced by many processes including boiling, fluidic >circuits, charged particles (e.g. bubble chambers), and sparks. Sparks and http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm Thomas N. Claytor Claytor_t_n lanl.gov Los Alamos National Laboratory ESA-MT, MS C914 Los Alamos NM, 87545 505-667-6216 voice 505-665-7176 fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 19 03:31:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA31201; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 03:30:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 03:30:22 -0700 Message-ID: <33589E8B.34A8 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:59:31 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Simple OU Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gDeRE2.0.Jd7.zw9Mp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6151 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I am now starting to built my "Close the loop" unit. I feel very confident as I have now built 6 variations of my orignial unit and have backed this design with many QField simulations and actual testing. Rest assured you will all know the microsecond the loop closes. Wheather the loop closes or not is NOT the real issue here. My testing and that of others has shown that a magnet can do work. The real issue is where the energy is coming from and what the cost of using that energy will be. Any takers? -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 19 03:57:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA00151; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 03:56:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 03:56:20 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 03:00:40 -0800 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"C4LQo2.0.72.JJAMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6152 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:59 PM 4/19/97, Greg Watson wrote: >Hi All, > > I am now starting to built my "Close the loop" unit. I feel very >confident as I have now built 6 variations of my orignial unit and have >backed this design with many QField simulations and actual testing. > > Rest assured you will all know the microsecond the loop closes. > > Wheather the loop closes or not is NOT the real issue here. My >testing and that of others has shown that a magnet can do work. The >real issue is where the energy is coming from and what the cost of using >that energy will be. Any takers? [snip] Of course a magnet can do work. So can a spring. Why don't you let an unbiased outfit like Earthtech, which has has standing offer to test overunity devices for free, test your gadget and publish the energy output? Positive results guarantee a fast startup for you - and at no cost to you. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 19 06:02:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA27800; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 06:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 06:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:05:24 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Cool web page Resent-Message-ID: <"RsF4l1.0.Io6.D8CMp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6153 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For frequently updated data, satellite pictures, and time lapse movies of the Arctic ozone hole: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 19 07:19:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA19448; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:17:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:17:57 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970419101649_1952376671 emout09.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com cc: little eden.com Subject: Re: Claytor's Reactions Resent-Message-ID: <"7dhE22.0.ol4.KGDMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6155 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, Your good opinion of Claytor's tritium experiments carries a lot of weight with me, because you have visited Claytor, you have relevant expertise, and you're a hard man to convince. Do you know what Claytor's preferred explanation for his tritium results is nowadays? What process does he think produces the tritium? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 19 07:20:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA18524; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:12:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:12:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3358D2E6.57B3 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:12:54 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: <33589E8B.34A8 microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wif-S2.0.GX4.9BDMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6154 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > (snips) > Wheather the loop closes or not is NOT the real issue here. My > testing and that of others has shown that a magnet can do work. The > real issue is where the energy is coming from........... Greg, I hope you can view me as an open-minded (i.e., I have a hole in my head?) skeptic on such devices. I also respect your ability and methodology in your investigations. However, I disagree that "closing the loop us not the real issue here". Until you close the loop, you may have no more than the EM equivalent of a Swiss watch (as Horace implies). When you get the watch to wind itself, then you have something! When your patent efforts permit, please inform us about the SIMPLE physical process that leads you to conclude that it is OU. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 19 07:24:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA19966; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:20:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:20:03 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: interlaced.net From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: BB Pinch Switch Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:19:25 +0000 Message-ID: <19970419141922.AAA18549 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"bUsvf1.0.ut4.IIDMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6156 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank S.: With a goal of stripping all or almost all of the electrons from iron or copper which requires 13.6*Z^2 KeV for the last electron thus 9.194 KeV for iron and 11.44 KeV for copper, then something like 13.6*(Z-1)^2 for stripping off the second electron, 13.6*(Z-2)^2 for the third electron etc., it would seem that a BB dropped into a graphite cylinder spaced at a distance less than the diameter of the BB or steel shot from a flat graphite plate with a slight slope would dump the capacitor bank and vaporize the "BB" post haste. The intent of this approach is to get the X-ray and EUV photons that are emitted when the electrons fall back into their initial energy states.(might make some "hydrinos" too, if there is an atmosphere of hydrogenous gas around the electrodes). The BB's could be dropped from a hopper at a set rate using a rotating plate like the plates used on a corn planter or grain drill. :-) Do you have any of these or a Daisy Air Rifle in your Stash? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 19 16:41:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA03870; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:30:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:30:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3359467E.1D5F gorge.net> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:26:06 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Flow Rate, etc. References: <199704191421.HAA20139 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cZYxu2.0.5w.2MLMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6158 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A MODEST PROPOSAL (or two) It occurs to me that a very inexpensive method of measuring flow is the the "notch weir." Accuracy depends mostly on how carefully the depth over the weir is measured. Although the flow can be determined mathematically, a notch weir must be calibrated to account for irregularities, and possible accretion/erosion of the weir. By placing a float (connected to a needle valve in the pressurized line) in the tank with the weir, a set level, with its associated flow, can be maintained automatically. This is cheap, fairly accurate, and very visible in a public demonstration. Also, it would appear that the technology behind lithotripsy is fairly well established. That is, utilizing an underwater spark to produce cavitations. An underwater spark apparatus could be fairly cheap, and the power and frequency could be modifed simply; by using a variable signal generator to switch a variable voltage power supply, capacitors, etc. Hope this helps. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 19 21:14:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA22310; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:11:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:11:53 -0700 Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704200410.VAA25963 sweden.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: gwatson microtronics.com.au From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"cSvlL1.0.PS5.7UPMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6159 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > Wheather the loop closes or not is NOT the real issue here. My >testing and that of others has shown that a magnet can do work. The >real issue is where the energy is coming from and what the cost of using >that energy will be. Any takers? > Hi Greg, >From what I've observed on my models it looks like the energy could be due to centrifugal acceleration the steel ball receives from the magnetic fields of the permanent magnets. Similar to the way the Voyager spacecraft gets energy by flying past the outer planets, to gain power and acceleration from the gravitational fields, to carry it out of the solar system. If the magnetic field is due to electrons spinning and this is due to energy powered from the ether, ZPE, the vacuum, tachyon ect. then it would seem to be an unlimited source of energy. Best Regards Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 19 21:19:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA20721; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3358FE2A.6882 skylink.net> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:17:30 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: (Fwd) a preferred direction in space? References: <199704190202.WAA10720 mail.enter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fn1aK3.0.R15.O9LMp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6157 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert G. Flower wrote: > To: physics intuition.org > Subject: Re: a preferred direction in space? Amazing. Could there is a universal magnetic field? Maybe the whole dang thing is spinning. Here is a brief report which was on CNN, originally by AP. ==================== Physicists theorize: Space isn't same in all directions April 18, 1997 Web posted at: 3:15 p.m. EDT (1915 GMT) (AP) -- Like the grain of wood, space itself may have an inherent quality that makes it behave differently depending on which way it's cut. That's the contention of two physicists anyway, whose study of distant galaxies has led them to violate a physics taboo by proposing that there's a difference in the universe's properties depending on which direction you're looking. "Everything we say and do is based on the assumption that there isn't," said Robert Kirshner, an astrophysicist at Harvard University. Nevertheless, John Ralston of the University of Kansas and Borge Nodland of the University of Rochester are confident in their analysis. They collected 160 observations of distant galaxies made with radio telescopes. And when they put all of them together, they found a pattern that nobody had ever seen before. The radio signals coming from one direction -- the constellation Sextans -- appear ever so slightly different from the ones originating 90 degrees away in the sky. The polarization, or direction of oscillation, of the radio waves differed systematically depending on where the physicists looked. "That indicates that not all directions are equal," Nodland said. Against all odds The universe has an axis, he and Ralston suggest in a paper to be published Monday in the journal Physical Review Letters, giving it an ordered structure that extends billions of light-years across space. That may not sound too revolutionary to the average person, accustomed to concepts such as up and down, left and right, north and south. But to physicists, the idea of directional orientation in the universe is a mind blower. "If this were true it would be important," Kirshner said. "It would mean that somehow the magnetic field in the universe wasn't the same in all directions." Several possible reasons emerge for why the universe might have a preferred direction, said Nodland, all of them profound. "It could indicate that maybe the origin of the universe was not as perfect as we thought," Nodland said. That is, the big bang could have bulged out more in one direction than in others. Then again, it could be that hypothetical particles known as axions are affecting the radio waves. But nobody's ever seen physical evidence for an axion, so that one's a little sketchy. And then there are the really wild explanations. The radio waves could be traversing things called "domain walls" that separate parts of the universe having different fundamental properties. Or maybe physicists have just missed a physical force up until now. "If it's a real physical effect, there's something awesome there," Ralston said. "We never know, right?" =========================================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 03:51:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA28506; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 03:47:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 03:47:09 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970420104448.006a8fe8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 06:44:48 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Vertical Calorimetry - Archimedes and Richardson numbers Resent-Message-ID: <"LOHgC2.0.Kz6.iGVMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6160 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael J. Schaffer, Elliot Kennel, and others have seriously considered the Bernard instability. To those that take this important material seriously, there are (at least) two more nondimensional numbers which might be of importance at two extrema. The Archimedes number is the buoyant force/viscous force. And if the Reynolds number is significant, the Richardson number is the ratio of the buoyant force/turbulent force. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 06:32:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA27893; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 06:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 06:22:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: fstenger interlaced.net From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: BB Pinch Switch Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:41:55 +0000 Message-ID: <19970419204153.AAA12121 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"lAI9C.0.ip6.aYXMp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6161 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Stenger wrote: >Vaporizing a bit of metal is no problem - I just have no plasma >diagnostic equipment to tell anything about the result. >A camcorder and sometimes a scope trace of capacitor voltage >(and thus, current) has been it so far. > Scratching my head (have to be careful doing this,white hair is hard to come by these days). I think that the 525 lines/sec, scanned on the camcorder at 30 frames/second could be speeded up by viewing through a motor-driven aperature disk at say 3600 rpm. If the disc has ten aperature "holes" in it you might get your picture rate up to 600 frames/second? A rifle scope or such on the front of the camcorder would probably help too. On the tv they use interlaced scanning to get 60 frames/sec for eye comfort. Gotta think some more on this. Measuring electron and/or ion velocities is a bit trickier. BTW. The BB's sell for $1.73/1,000 at WalMart.I bought a quart of them several years ago and had them silver plated for use as a catalyst for decomposing hydrogen peroxide solution. Works great. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 07:24:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA05634; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:12:46 -0500 (GMT) From: Carlos Henry Castano To: grupo de discusion Cc: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Vertical Calorimetry - Archimedes and Richardson numbers In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970420104448.006a8fe8 world.std.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"MtrK03.0.vN1.EPYMp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6162 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > Michael J. Schaffer, Elliot Kennel, and others have seriously > considered the Bernard instability. > > To those that take this > important material seriously, there are (at least) > two more nondimensional numbers which might be > of importance at two extrema. > > The Archimedes number is the buoyant force/viscous force. > > And if the Reynolds number is significant, the > Richardson number is the ratio of the buoyant force/turbulent force. > > Hope that helps. > Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) > Thank you, Mr. Swartz, I have a question about of your article: If I detect excess of heat with a flow valor, and later I (say) double the flow valor, and the excess heat detected not vary.... can I say that the bouyant forces not are important in my calorimeter system? Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo Ingeniero Quimico Laboratorio de Electroquimica Universidad Nacional de Colombia, Sede Medellin. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 10:04:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA04475; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:00:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:00:03 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:54:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970420125425_1885384341 emout09.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Parametric amplification tests results Resent-Message-ID: <"z1LQI1.0.r51.IkaMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear All, Today, I have conducted some experiments on parametric power conversion, you will find some electronics schemes, scope pictures and tests results on my web site... The direct link is : http://members.aol.com/overunity/html/paraconv.htm Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm WWPager, UIN: 747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 11:10:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA27503; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:06:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:08:49 -0600 To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: GYROSCOPIC ACTIONS ..... Resent-Message-ID: <"XdQyF2.0.aj6.vibMp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: New Evidence of Anti-Gravity Possibility for the Complete Parity Breaking of Gravity and the Existence of Anti-Gravity: Evidence from Free-Fall Experiment Using a Spinning Gyro by Hideo Hayasaka, Haruo Tanaka, Toshiyuki Hashida, Tokushi Chubachi and Toshiki Sugiyama Faculty of Engineering, Tohoku University, Aobaku, Sendai 980, Japan Matsushita Communication Ind. Co. Ltd., Midoriku, Yokohama 226, Japan --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Free-fall experiment of a spinning gyro enclosed in a capsule has been conducted in order to investigate the topological effect of an object's spinning on the fall-acceleration. The topological effect is due to the gauge term of de Rham's cohomology which couples with the invariant angular momentum on a mirror transformation. The theory anticipates the generation of a twisted field that leads to the additional anti-gravity whose strength is different in lefthand and righthand spinning around an axis. For ten runs of the repeated fall experiments, in which each run consists of the fall-time measurements for the lefthand (VIEWED FROM ABOVE), righthand and no spinning about the vertical axis. The fall-acceleration g(R) of the right-spinning is significantly smaller than g(L) of the left-spinning at 18,000 rpm, with the latter being almost identical with g(O) of no spinning, without exception. Our experimental system is composed of the following main parts: (a) fall-tower of 300 cm in height, (b) five pairs of laser apparatus placed at upper, middle, and lower positions along the fall-tower, (c) two time-counters (two frequency-counters with accuracy of 10^(-6)sec ) which were inserted between the upper and middle position, and between the upper and lower position, respectively, (d) a gate circuit for (c), (e) an electro-magnet, and (f) a drive apparatus of a gyro whose rotor-mass, radius, and inertial moment are 175 g, 2.9 cm, and 969.5 gcm. Various techniques have been used in order to fall the capsule enclosing the gyro exactly along the vertical axis. The main results are summarized in the following: The mean value of the difference between g(R) and g(0), < g(R) - g(O) >, is = -0.1392 gal (0.0716 gal), and that for the left spinning is = 0.0029 gal (0.0663 gal). Furthermore, that for g(R) - g(L) is = - 0.1421 gal (0.0317 gal). where g(0) is the Earth's gravity-acceleration at Sendai (latitude=38.248 N, longitude=140.847 E, height=130.0 m), and the mean value for g(0) is = 980.0658 gal(0.0001 gal). The above experimental data are presented as mean value in gal (standard deviation in gal). The experimental results are completely free from systematic errors. Statistical evaluation has been also performed for the populations corresponding to the sample ensembles (the experimental data). The present experiment has confirmed our previous experimental results for the weight changes of three spinning gyros: The previous experiment showed that the RIGHT-SPINNING caused weight DECREASE in proportion to the number of rotations, while the LEFT-SPINNING showed NO WEIGHT CHANGE. The previous report was published in Physical Review Letters, 63, 2701-2704 (1989). Both the present and previous experiments suggest that the RIGHT-SPINNING GENERATES ANTI-GRAVITY, and also that the parity (the reflection symmetry on a mirror transformation) of gravity breaks down completely. The appearance of anti-gravity means the GENERATION OF POSITIVE ENERGY FROM THE VACUUM (i.e. the Aether). The detail of the present experiment will be published shortly in "Speculations in Science and Technology". And also, the present experiment will be reported in "International Conference on New Ideas in Natural Science", to be held by the Russia Academy of Science, St.-Petersburg, June 17-21, 1996. Furthermore, anti-gravity theory for a spinning object has been developed by Hayasaka, and published in "Proceeding of III Inter. Conf. on Space, Time, and Gravitation", held by the Russia Academy of Science, St. Petersburg, May 21-27, 1994. The proceeding was published by "Politechnika", (6, Inzhenernaya Str., St.-Petersburg, 191011, Russia), 1995. Publisher of "Speculations in Science and Technology (S.S.T)": Editor, Bryony Waltson Address, Chapman and Hall, 2-6 Boundary Row, London SE 8HN England Editor-in-Chief of the Journal (S.S.T): Dr. Akhlash Lakhatakia Address, Department of Engineering Science and Mechanics, The Pennsylvania State University, 229 Hamond State University Park, PA 16802-1401 USA Address: Dr. T. Hashida Research Institute for Fracture Technology Tohoku University Aza-Aoba, Aramaki, Aoba-ku, Sendai, 980-77 Japan Fax 81-22-225-2263 Comments - this report indicates that a righthand spin (viewed from above) causes a decrease in gravity interactions and thus a positive energy result. This might be helpful to free energy or anti-grav researchers who need that small boost to kick their machines into overunity or successful operation. It also indicates the twist that is often associated with Aether flows and subsequently with all energies which cascade down from the aether plenum. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The above was originally posted to me by Mr. Gary DePietro. Disclaimer: Not having directly observed the above tests, I cannot explicitly support nor discount the above experiment. At this time, I am posting it here for informational purposes. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "In speaking of the Energy of the field, however, I wish to be understood literally. All energy is the same as mechanical energy, whether it exists in the form of motion or in that of elasticity, or in any other form. The energy in electromagnetic phenomena is _mechanical_ energy." --- JAMES CLERK MAXWELL * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 1) Why do magnets mechanically attract and repel? 2) Why, mechanically, if one pushes a conductor downward at right angles to the lines of force of a magnet does the current produced travel in ONE GIVEN DIRECTION and then, if one pushes the same conductor upwards, the produced current travels in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION? 3) Why, mechanically, if one flips the magnet over 180 degrees and repeats the test in (2), does one obtain results which are exactly opposite to test (2)? 4) And of extreme mechanical importance: Why, mechanically, when the conductor is pushed down or up parallel with the lines of force of a magnet --- NO MATTER HOW VIGOROUS THE MOTION OF THE CONDUCTOR (as long as parallel to the lines of force) --- is there NO CURRENT PRODUCED? HOW DOES THE CURRENT "KNOW" WHICH WAY TO TRAVEL --- OR NOT TO TRAVEL AT ALL? 5) Why, mechanically, can one move a conductor at a "snail's pace" at right angles to a magnetic field and suddenly, the CURRENT will travel at basically the SPEED OF LIGHT? 6) Why, mechanically, does light sometimes behave as a "particle" and at other times as a "wave?" 7) Why, mechanically, is there a particular angle to the Earth's True Axis towards the Sun? And many additional questions relating to astronomical/gravitational observations..... 8) What is the BASIC, MECHANICAL, BUILDING ENTITY OF ALL MATTER? 9) What is GRAVITY? 10) What is INERTIA? Fact: In my fundamental book I answer ALL OF THE ABOVE QUESTIONS (and many more) with ONE SIMPLE MECHANICAL EXPLANATION: THE GYROSCOPIC PARTICLE! [Such is accomplished by applying the mechanically known laws of a gyroscope!] --- JOSEPH NEWMAN * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 11:51:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA24135; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:45:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:45:10 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Carlos Henry Castano From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Hi, I have a question..... Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:44:29 +0000 Message-ID: <19970420184426.AAA6086 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"SOqVv3.0.1v5.rGcMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:51 PM 4/20/97 +0000 Carlos wrote: > >I can understant you data >however i want talk with you about of calcules more basic, total >energy enter of the cell and total energy out of the cell.... Try this Carlos: Joule/mole Joule/molecule ev/molecule K+ -284,716 4.73E-19 2.96 OH- -212,000 3.52E-19 2.20 H20 -238,659 3.96E-19 2.477 Assume 2 amperes at 5 volts from the power supply during one second. Energy w = volts x amperes x time = 2 x 5 x 1 = 10 watt-second = 10 joule. At the cathode: 2 K+ plus 2e = 2 K 2 x 6.25E18 x 2.96 ev x 1.6E-19 joule/ev = 5.92 joules/sec input. Then: 2K + 2 H2O = 2 K+ plus 2 OH- + H2 plus 1.64 joules/sec (exotherm). Net Input required = 5.92 + 1.64 = 4.28 watts from power supply At the anode: 2 OH- minus 2e = 2 OH 2 x 6.25E18 x 2.20 ev x 1.6E-19 joule/ev = 4.40 joules/sec input. Then: 2 OH = H2O + O = 4.95 joules/sec (exotherm). Net Input required = 4.95 - 4.40 = 0.55 watts excess heat. If you recombine the H2 + O in the cell: H2 + O = H20 2 x 6.25E19 X 2.477 x 1.6E-19 = 4.95 watts exotherm. So you are putting in 10 watt-second = 10 joules with the power supply acting as a heat pump and getting back the excess heat from the power supply. This is important: If you calculate the energy required FOR the Power Supply you will find no free energy is involved. Just a low temperature latitude in thermodynamics. > >I agree in that you are enter at the system energy of high quality, but >energy is energy, you will analyse the electrolite (postrun) and you not >will find any product of chemistry combustion (are you agree?, or you >think that you find any molecules of products), if you have a "heat pump", >where are your source of heat?? (heat = energy, you can't take energy from >nothing) if you use the internal energy you freeze the electrochemical >solution, thrue? > >moreover the calculation about of the excess of heat is do it with the >total energy that enter in the system.... so if you enter 4,8E5 Joles (in >electricity form), you need obtain the triple in order to say that you >have 300% in excess of heat... are you agree?? No it only looks like triple. The Total System IS LESS THAN UNITY ENERGY. > >if you take the energy of the surround you cold the water of the jaquet, >and you can't observe any excess of heat, are you agree?? There could be Some Peltier Effect due to Contact Potential differences in the electrolyte-electrodes with current flow. > >if you take energy from chemical in the cell, you mush be observe large >quantities of chemical products (because you are obtain large quantities >of energy), here not is so importan the voltaje of the cell, but the >current of a prolongated operation (of the current depend the energy and >the products freed) what do you think? > >Best whishes, > >Carlos Henry Casta~o G. > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 13:27:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA08024; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:21:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:21:51 -0700 Message-ID: <335A7AAD.2C19 worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:21:04 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; U; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Vertical Calorimetry - Archimedes and Richardson numbers References: <2.2.32.19970420104448.006a8fe8 world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9j-af3.0.8z1.UhdMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell - > The Archimedes number... > the Reynolds number... > Richardson number... What about the 'calibration number'? With the exception of one person kind enough to reply offline with some perspective on the antagonists here, no one answered my question. How can all those numbers mean anything when they must have been the same in the calibration runs? Doesn't that null them out of the experiment, whatever they are good for describing or whatever geek or Greek whose names they honor? Were they not the same between null and real runs to a significant degree? If not, why? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 13:40:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA14924; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <335A7D2E.2BDC worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:31:47 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; U; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: GYROSCOPIC ACTIONS ..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"D3Qm31.0.3f3.rrdMp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Evan - Do you have any clue as to the date of this Tohaku experiment? They say: "The present experiment has confirmed our previous experimental results for the weight changes of three spinning gyros:" ...and that makes it sound new, like it was done in rebuttal to the original criticism which may have found errors in those experiments. This could be a cool thing if it's a recent second set of experiments. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 19:37:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA03574; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:26:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:26:59 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970420232722.00aaecd8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:27:22 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Vertical Calorimetry - Archimedes and Richardson numbers Resent-Message-ID: <"gQIbX2.0.ps.g1jMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:12 AM 4/20/97 -0500, Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo wrote: > >If I detect excess of heat with a flow valor, and later I (say) double the >flow valor, and the excess heat detected not vary.... can I say that the >bouyant forces not are important in my calorimeter system? > >Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo >Ingeniero Quimico >Laboratorio de Electroquimica >Universidad Nacional de Colombia, Sede Medellin. > > Carlos: The vertical flow calorimetry (VFC) amplification effect may occur when Bernard instability can create additional mass transport which adds to total heat transport, thereby yielding false derivations of the "excess heat" generated. The apparent gain of a sample derived by such vertical flow calorimetry (VFC) may be correctable as Apparent gain = Real Gain/ (1-[fraction of heat transported by Bernard instability]) Therefore, doubling the forced convective flow rate should decrease the ratio of thermal "updraft" to forced convective flow. And the effect should correspondingly decrease. You can work out the ratios as an exercise. [or see Swartz, M, " Potential for Positional Variation in Flow Calorimetric Systems", Journal of New Energy, 1, 126-130 (1996) and SWARTZ, M., "IMPROVED CALCULATIONS INVOLVING ENERGY RELEASE USING A BUOYANCY TRANSPORT CORRECTION", Journal of New Energy, 1, 3, 219-221 (1996)] Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 19:43:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA09422; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:40:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:40:14 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:35:31 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: GYROSCOPIC ACTIONS ..... Resent-Message-ID: <"Hq9PF.0.uI2.9EjMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Evan - > >Do you have any clue as to the date of this Tohaku experiment? > >They say: > >"The present experiment has confirmed our previous experimental >results for the weight changes of three spinning gyros:" > >...and that makes it sound new, like it was done in rebuttal to the >original criticism which may have found errors in those experiments. >This could be a cool thing if it's a recent second set of experiments. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Dear Rick, While I can't attest to the erroneous/non-erroneous nature of the Tohaku experiment(s) [I am passing it along for information purposes only and the possibility that it might stimulate others to post updates, if available] -- I believe the date of the described experiment(s) is 1989 or 1990. Evan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 19:45:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA10043; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:42:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:42:40 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <335ACAEC.5E38 math.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:03:24 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Claytor-Jones netron detection References: <3.0.32.19970418213203.009ef470 esa.lanl.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kDfIp.0.qS2.UGjMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas N. Claytor wrote: > > > When we took our plasma experiment down to [Jones'] tunnel > (two years ago) we were alert to the possibility that we might > see a neutron or two (due to hot fusion) by some anomalous effect. > ...in one sample (of three) did we see a deviation from the > background by 2 sigma in the neutron count and by strange > coincidence that was the only sample of the three that > subsequently released tritium in our post analysis. > I have not seen any mention of this before. What was the estimated neutron production rate, and what conclusions did you ultimately draw from this? What was Jones's opinion? -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 19:54:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA13515; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:50:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:50:06 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Bromide Nuclear Waste Cleanup? Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 02:05:30 +0000 Message-ID: <19970421020528.AAA1344 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"6PgmG2.0.MI3.MNjMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: Creation of light electron-positron pairs from photons of 10 KeV or so energy would seem more likely from interaction of betas or gammas with a highly water-soluble compound with a high Z. The photon efficiency of an electron striking a target atom is 1.2E-9 VZ. Compton scattered electrons from gamma collisions in the atom would probably be of the same cross section. HBr, FeBr2, and CuBr2 seem to be a good choice for compounds to be dissolved with the radio-wastes, or the bromides of the wastes could also be dissolved in water or heavy water. IF there is a pair created the negative light lepton could "spiral" into a proton or deuteron releasing about 256 KeV of energy and possibly create additional light pairs in doing so, as well as creating the proposed "hydrino" or "deutrino" which could be absorbed by the radio-waste converting it to a species with a decay time of seconds or minutes as opposed to decades to millenniums. This could be tested with a trivial experiment.Two birds, many stones? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 21:09:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA07478; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:04:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:04:13 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:03:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704210403.XAA09245 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Claytor-Jones netron detection Resent-Message-ID: <"1jPWY1.0.lq1.ySkMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:03 PM 4/20/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: >Thomas N. Claytor wrote: >> ...in one sample (of three) did we [sic] see a deviation from the >> background by 2 sigma in the neutron count >what conclusions did you ultimately draw from this? >What was Jones's opinion? With only one of three samples showing only a 2-sigma deviation from background, I should hope that both Tom and Steve simply shrugged their shoulders and wished that they could make the counting statistics 10 times better. 2-sigma deviations occur spontaneously about 5% of the time. Thus, given the info that Tom reported, there is no significant indication that his samples were emitting neutrons. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 21:22:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA11861; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:20:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:20:32 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <335AEB06.3838 math.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:20:22 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Claytor-Jones netron detection References: <199704210403.XAA09245 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"R80RW.0.8v2.EikMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > 2-sigma deviations occur spontaneously about 5% of the time. Thus, > given the info that Tom reported, there is no significant > indication that his samples were emitting neutrons. > Yes, but it is a non-ignorable "coincidence" that this same sample was the only one that showed T content. That makes it more special than a randomly chosen 2-sigma deviation. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 22:11:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA26919; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:09:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:09:06 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: BB Pinch Switch & Sferics. Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 05:08:26 +0000 Message-ID: <19970421050824.AAA19929 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"YTx_P1.0.Va6.nPlMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Frank S, & Vortex: The other day Robert Eachus mentioned the use of an AM radio to detect and observe the electrical "noise" from an electrical discharge. This effect that abounds as a nuisance on AM radio receivers,is commonly used to detect and locate atmospheric electrical activity, hence the name sferics. I used a portable AM reciever inside an aluminum box to detect breakdown in electrical devices years back.(it seems like about anything technical that I discuss these days happened many years back) :-) There once was a farmer sitting on a fence, trying to make a dollar out of fifteen cents. The grass grew, tickled his..., blanked all over his overalls. Oops, Sorry. Anyhow, with a spectrum analyzer or scope you might get a good idea about what is going on in the electrical breakdown. On the other hand these "plasma frequencies" can go up to the gigahertz range. I think Hertz figured his spark transmitter was at about 300 Megacycles. He didn't call them Megahertz back then. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 23:12:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA13753; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:07:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:07:09 -0700 Message-ID: <335AF951.21D6 pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:21:21 -0700 From: Hank Scudder Organization: Stochastic Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-PBXE (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Capacitors, anyone? References: <199704202128.OAA19849 mail.pacifier.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tCk-N1.0.pM3.BGmMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jim Bell wrote: > > At 20:41 4/19/97 +0000, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > >Frank Stenger wrote: > >>Vaporizing a bit of metal is no problem - I just have no plasma > >>diagnostic equipment to tell anything about the result. > >>A camcorder and sometimes a scope trace of capacitor voltage > >>(and thus, current) has been it so far. > > Gathering dust in my basement for many years, I have about 60 of a GE > electrolytic capacitor, 1800 microfarads at 350 WVDC, 425 volts surge. 48 > are mounted in frames, 12 per frame. Bought them for one project or > another, but you know how that goes! Now, I'd rather have the space than > the capacitors. > > I'll offer them to the highest bidder. And if that highest bid is "free," > he'll get them...free. > > I'm in Vancouver, Washington, just across the Columbia river from Portland, > Oregon. > > Jim Bell > jimbell pacifier.comJim I'll offer you $25 for the lot, if they can be shipped easily and not too expensively. Hank Scudder From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 20 23:15:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA13888; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:07:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:07:47 -0700 Message-ID: <335AA56A.1708 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:53:22 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: neotech xbn.shore.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Real Space Drive (1/4 Impluse Mr. Crusher......Engage) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------40FC48A9780F" Resent-Message-ID: <"_fdio2.0.tO3.nGmMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------40FC48A9780F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI All, I have attached the first page of US patent 5,142,861. It claims to be a US Gov patent to directly produce thrust from a highly distorted magnetic field. Looks like you could build one in your garage. I can send the whole patent (480kb) to anyone interested. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. 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9AvTLS3T80vTNp3TJE3COt3TinySPh3UCX3NQl3UG81+Rp3UegS9St3UIKu/9erUQg3V+CvV Vj01x+w0V73VXN3VXv3VYB3WYj3WZF3WZn3WaJ3War3WbN3Wbv3WcB3Xcj3XdF3Xdn3XeJ3X er3XfN3Xfv3XgB3Ygj3YhF3Yhn3YiJ3Yir3YjN3Yjv3YkB3Zkj3ZlF3Zln3ZmJ3Zmr3ZnN3Z nv3ZoB3aoj3apF3apn3aqJ3aqr3arN3arv3asB3bsj3btF3btn3buJ3bur3/27zd277928Ad 3MI93MRd3MZ93Mid3Mq93Mzd3M793NAd3dI93dRd3dZ93did3dq93dzd3d793eAd3uI93uRd 3uZ93uid3uq93uzd3u793vAd3/I93/Rd3/Z93/id3/q93/zd3/793wAe4AI+4ARe4AZ+4Aie 4Aq+4Aze4A7+4BAe4RI+4RRe4RZ+4Rie4Rq+4Rze4R7+4SAe4iI+4iRe4iZ+4iie4iq+4ize 4i7+4jAe4zI+4zRe4zZ+4zie4zq+4zze4z7+40Ae5EI+5ERe5EZ+5Eie5Eq+5Eze5E7+5FAe 5VJu2TU95X5p5Vie5Vq+5Vze5V7+5WAe5mI+5mReQeZmfuZonuZqvuZsLt1V3uYvCOdyPud0 Xud2fud4nud6vud83ud+/ueAHuiCPuiEXuiGfuiInuiKvuiM3ugTXAAAADs= --------------40FC48A9780F-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 01:33:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA14618; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 01:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 01:29:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 01:29:22 PST8PDT Subject: cavitation question Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <1D1B0F52C09 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"Pcu5m1.0.Ia3.4MoMp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: How about cavitation in a tank of highly pressurized liquid D2? Has it been done? What good does the O do when you are cavitating H2O or D2O? Seems like it would just get in the way... JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 05:35:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA23167; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 05:31:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 05:31:09 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: BB Pinch Switch & Sferics Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:30:31 +0000 Message-ID: <19970421123029.AAA11857 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"UV15J.0.uf5.CurMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex & Frank Stenger: One might use a VCR to observe noise from an electrical discharge, and get a taped "image" of the noise. Picture that. :-) The television video signal is amplitude modulated and the frequency ranges from 54 to 890 Megahertz: Channel# Freq band (megahertz) 1 abandoned and used for the I.F. frequency in recievers. 2 54-60 3 60-66 4 66-72 5 76-82 6 82-88 7 174-180 8 180-186 9 186-192 10 192-198 11 198-204 12 204-210 13 210-216 14 thru 83 470 to 890 megahertz in 6 megahertz increments. Some VCR's have a video input jack also? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 06:51:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA02213; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 06:49:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 06:49:39 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:49:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970421094859_-266915855 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com cc: claytor_t_n lanl.gov Subject: Re: Claytor's Reactions Resent-Message-ID: <"cuXdc3.0.VY.o1tMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom, Scott said that he didn't know what explanation you currently favored for your tritium results and suggested that I ask you myself, since you've posted to Vortex before (and by coincidence posted again just as I was asking Scott). What process do you think accounts for the production of tritium in your experiments? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 07:33:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA08928; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 07:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 07:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:22:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704211422.KAA18292 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (Schaffer@gav.gat.com) Subject: Re: Stellarator vs. Tokamak (was Re: Swartz's question re: stripping energy) Resent-Message-ID: <"S5aoN.0.QB2.iWtMp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Schaffer gav.gat.com > We have come a long way. Walls don't get very "dirty" any more. Yes, but in a power reactor instead of a test device, the issue will certainly crop up again due to radiation effects. On the other hand, if you belive the optimists, square cube scaling will reduce the sensitivity to this. This of course will also, make for much higher power loadings on the walls. Just one reason that pwer generating tokamaks may have to be thinner (lower minor to major diameter ratio), and have wall to volume ratios near that of the TFTR. >>And I have yet to see a believable tokamak >>power generating design that will make 1000 seconds. > You haven't kept up. Okay, let me rephrase that. Current tokamaks can be operated for burns lasting several minutes. But the latest data I have seen indicates that high temperature burns are shorter, and I expect that the poloidal current required for stability in a power generating plasma will be very high. So I don't believe the optimistic numbers. Since no power generating tokamaks exist, please don't tell me to look at current hardware... >> By the way, what ever happened to the idea of using charged beam >> injection as a steady state strategy? > It's still around, but waves are looking better at the moment. If it can be made to work, that would be a huge hurdle overcome. >> AlcatorD was recently operated in a configuration with a >> figure eight cross-section, so it might be possible to have two >> simultaneous confinement areas in the same reaction chamber. > There has never been an Alcator D, just -A, -C and -C-MOD. None > made figure-8 shapes. Could you be confusing with Doublet-I, -II, > -III series, which were specifically built (at General Atomics!) > for figure-8 plasma cross sections? Oops, no. Alcator-C-Mod after the recent rebuild. Project status reports posted to sci.fusion about a year ago, but I haven't seen a paper. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 07:48:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA11282; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 07:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 07:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:36:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: W4W -> HTML format Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"K3Rp93.0.9m2.IotMp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortex, I haven't got time to spend frigging about learning html. Does anyone know of any software freebie that can take Word for Windows with gif images and emdedded graphics and convert it into html that looks damn near the same as the original. An ftp site would be nice. Remi. "Mildly pissed off in London" "Isn't it about time W7 had a html convertor?" "Yuk! You mean I have to learn format codes!" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 09:06:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA26958; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:51:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:51:26 -0700 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.251.148 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:51:04 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"FT6T51.0.8b6.zpuMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:59 PM 4/19/97, Greg Watson wrote: [snip] > Wheather the loop closes or not is NOT the real issue here. My >testing and that of others has shown that a magnet can do work. The >real issue is where the energy is coming from and what the cost of using >that energy will be. Any takers? [Snip] Magnets can do work and this work would be done at the expense of thermal energy in the magnet. The magnet doing work should cool off and the heat exchanged is supposed to be done in accord with the second law of thermodynamics although the proof of this property is not well established. In the energy conservation equation the energy source density, S, for magnetic interactions is given by: S = H dot (dB / dt) - B dot (dH / dt) where the constant of proportionality is being ignored and we are only looking for a non-zero result. If the usual relation B = Mu H where Mu is the magnetic permeability then we have S = H dot H (dMu / dt) Thus we see if Mu is constant (the linear region) then there is zero energy source density. In the case of non-linear response and non-isotropic Mu then it may be possible to obtain a non-zero value of S when integrated in time through a complete cycle. Inside a permanent magnet we would have B = B0 + Mu H where B0 is the term from the permanent magnetization. Including the B0 term in S gives: S = H dot H (dMu / dt) - B0 dot (dH / dt) the last term would cancel out around a closed cycle and so we are left with the same form for S. However, I would guess that the presence of a permanent magnetization causes Mu to be non-isotropic and then there would be the possibility of a net energy production when integrated over a closed cycle. The question of the work done being consistant with the second law or not needs to be answered. The operation of magnetic heat pumps is well known and they have always been observed to be consistant with the second law. The thing to look for here is any heating or cooling of the magnets and any exchange of heat between the magnets and the ambient heat sink. If there is none of this going on then second law considerations may be ignored and any energy produced may be assumed to be free. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 09:33:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA28415; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <33577357.3D899E67 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:12:55 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: GYROSCOPIC ACTIONS ..... X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EAqK91.0.rx6.4IvMp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At the risk of this forum may not be found appropriate for theoretical subjects, I am posting these references. They are quiet readable: gr-qc/9604044 Anomalous Center of Mass Shift: Gravitational Dipole Moment Eue Jin Jeong gr-qc/9605001 Extracting Gravitational Energy From The Homogeneous Isotropic Universe Eue Jin Jeong Also there is a recent paper of Eue Jin Jeong named "Neutrinos Must be Tachyons" hep-ph/9704311. The references of the main subject are: astro-ph/9704197 Cosmologically Screwy Light Authors: Borge Nodland, John P. Ralston We present evidence for a new phenomenon in the propagation of electromagnetic radiation across the Universe, a corkscrew rotation of the plane of polarization not accounted for by conventional physics. astro-ph/9704196 Indication of Anisotropy in Electromagnetic Propagation over Cosmological Distances Authors: Borge Nodland, John P. Ralston We report a systematic rotation of the plane of polarization of electromagnetic radiation propagating over cosmological distances. The effect is extracted independently from Faraday rotation, and found to be correlated with the angular positions and distances to the sources. Monte Carlo analysis yields probabilistic P-values of order 10^(-3) for this to occur as a fluctuation. A fit yields a birefringence scale of order 10^(25) meters. Dependence on redshift z rules out a local effect. Barring hidden systematic bias in the data, the correlation indicates a new cosmological effect. ------------------------ If anyone is interested on anomalies of elliptical galaxies such as "gas-free" and "absence of rotational counter balance" problems and want to speculate on similarities on forces governing galactic and atomic structures write me at hamdix verisoft.com.tr Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 10:07:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA08068; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:01:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:01:05 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:00:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970421130022_-1401887453 emout09.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: not fusion !!! What then?? Resent-Message-ID: <"aeGe81.0.-z1.GrvMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: F Sparber writes On the other hand these "plasma frequencies" can go up to the gigahertz .............................................................................. ...... I'm finding that 120 electron volts is not enough for fusion. Why are there not any neurtrons? I'm going back to my orginal hypothysis. That a dense electron plasma within a cavitation bubble or cold fusion electrode results in the evanscence of a material wavestate. .............................................................................. ................... Mr Sparber What do you think? Frank Znidarsic fznidarsic aol.com 481 Boyer St. http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html Johnstown, Pa. 15906 Automatic links: Home_Page Send_E-mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 11:31:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA25620; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:26:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:26:44 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970421112820.009ad220 aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:28:22 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: W4W -> HTML format Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NLcr73.0.EG6.Z5xMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:36 PM 4/21/97 +0000, you wrote: >Dear Vortex, > >I haven't got time to spend frigging about learning html. Does anyone >know of any software freebie that can take Word for Windows with gif >images and emdedded graphics and convert it into html that looks damn >near the same as the original. > >An ftp site would be nice. > >Remi. > >"Mildly pissed off in London" >"Isn't it about time W7 had a html convertor?" >"Yuk! You mean I have to learn format codes!" > > go get Netscape Gold Pro - it will go the job handily. But, it is not free, I think somewhere around $60 or, zip it up and send it to someone who has Netscape Gold or Frontpage. Frontpage is the best. Plus, get your gifs converted into jpg's, if possible. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 12:09:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA29165; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:52:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:52:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: naps: Host server.campus.uwindsor.ca claimed to be server.uwindsor.ca Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:49:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Soltis James Dr." To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: W4W -> HTML format In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"xcCaF3.0.c77.jTxMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Remi Cornwall wrote: > Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:36:55 +0000 (GMT) > From: Remi Cornwall > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: W4W -> HTML format > > Dear Vortex, > > I haven't got time to spend frigging about learning html. Does anyone > know of any software freebie that can take Word for Windows with gif > images and emdedded graphics and convert it into html that looks damn > near the same as the original. > > An ftp site would be nice. > > Remi. > > "Mildly pissed off in London" > "Isn't it about time W7 had a html convertor?" > "Yuk! You mean I have to learn format codes!" > Remi: Last I looked, Internet Assistant is free from microsoft.com It is good starting point at least.Visit their website. Jim Soltis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 12:49:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA29774; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: "Scudder,Henry J" To: Rick Monteverde , Vortex-L Subject: Re: Vertical Calorimetry - Archimedes and Richardson numbers Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:31:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kOkb-1.0.3H7.S8yMp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick I agree with you, I don't see how any of this stuff is relevant if you calibrate an essentially identical system with an electric heater. Hank ---------- From: Rick Monteverde To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Vertical Calorimetry - Archimedes and Richardson numbers Date: Sunday, April 20, 1997 1:21PM Mitchell - > The Archimedes number... > the Reynolds number... > Richardson number... What about the 'calibration number'? With the exception of one person kind enough to reply offline with some perspective on the antagonists here, no one answered my question. How can all those numbers mean anything when they must have been the same in the calibration runs? Doesn't that null them out of the experiment, whatever they are good for describing or whatever geek or Greek whose names they honor? Were they not the same between null and real runs to a significant degree? If not, why? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 13:11:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA08565; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:00:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:00:50 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970421195913.00995d88 mail.airmail.net> X-Sender: danyork mail.airmail.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:59:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan York Subject: Re: W4W -> HTML format Resent-Message-ID: <"4o7ah2.0.l52.nTyMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:36 PM 4/21/97 +0000, you wrote: >Dear Vortex, > >I haven't got time to spend frigging about learning html. Does anyone >know of any software freebie that can take Word for Windows with gif >images and emdedded graphics and convert it into html that looks damn >near the same as the original. > >An ftp site would be nice. > >Remi. > >"Mildly pissed off in London" >"Isn't it about time W7 had a html convertor?" >"Yuk! You mean I have to learn format codes!" There is a set of macro's available for WFW that will convert a document in WFW into an HTML page. It is a WYSIWYG macro utility that does exactly what you asked for. You can find the utility and download it from: http://telacommunications.com/ant/ The FTP site you asked for is at: ftp://ftp.mcia.com/tela/ant/ Dan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 13:56:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA18895; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:48:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:48:59 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:48:37 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704212048.PAA22670 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: physiological impact of D20? Resent-Message-ID: <"GDSVN1.0.9d4.wAzMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Can anyone provide info on the effects of D20 on the human body? Is there any noticeable effect of skin contact, ingestion, etc.? Could you live on D2O? Thanks. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 14:15:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA13067; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960421210215.0074eae8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 17:02:15 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Cold Fusion Times' web site updated Resent-Message-ID: <"Vqdcq.0.3C3.wQzMp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Cold Fusion Times web site is updated with scores more references, URLS and leads including a now comprehensive 5 and half year cumulative index. The COLD FUSION TIMES web site is located at URL http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html It covers some of the details involving more quality confirmations of cold fusion including correlated nuclear signatures consisting of linked low-level excess neutron and heat in Pd systems and anomalous heatj and/or anomalous isotopic distributions in nickel, palladium, and other metal systems loaded by gas loading, solid state, or electrolysis systems. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 14:39:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA25206; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:25:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:25:24 -0700 Date: 21 Apr 97 17:23:26 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: physiological impact of D20? Message-ID: <970421212325_100433.1541_BHG58-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Fi3F31.0.i96.2jzMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, > Could you live on D2O? Soo suggests the Paul Hogan line, "It tastes like shit, but you can live on it." Whoops, sorry, "sh*t". However, you can't live on it unless you are an amazingly primitive organism. In the margin of one of Gene Mallove's books (from which I got that gobbet of information), he had written, "But could you live without any at all?" That sounds like a very interesting question indeed. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 14:45:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA17959; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:32:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: physiological impact of D20? Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:31:18 +0000 Message-ID: <19970421213116.AAA7258 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"6sjh6.0.WO4.bpzMp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:48 PM 4/21/97 +0000, Scott wrote: >Can anyone provide info on the effects of D20 on the human body? > >Is there any noticeable effect of skin contact, ingestion, etc.? > >Could you live on D2O? > >Thanks. Nothing on the human body Scott, except your water would be heavier. :-) There is some info that says the "free-running" periods of circadian rhythms of algae and mice are lengthened. And there is alteration of the phase relations of activity patterns of organisms subjected to light-dark light cycles. Kinda like jet lag. :-) Also "the zero point energy of Deuterium is lower". If you are up at 3:00 am and call the Poison Center Hotline. if there is a good chem or med student from UT on duty they might check their computer database on this for you. Regards, Frederick > > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 14:54:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA28887; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:44:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:44:30 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: physiological impact of D20? Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:43:25 +0000 Message-ID: <19970421214323.AAA15003 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"4a6ym2.0.E37.z-zMp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:23 PM 4/21/97 +0000, Chris wrote: >Scott, > > > Could you live on D2O? > >Soo suggests the Paul Hogan line, "It tastes like shit, but you can live >on it." Whoops, sorry, "sh*t". With the noted circadian rhythm effects,might this be a good excuse for missing a period? :-) > >However, you can't live on it unless you are an amazingly primitive >organism. Thanks Chris. That explains a lot of things. >In the margin of one of Gene Mallove's books (from which I >got that gobbet of information), he had written, "But could you live >without any at all?" That sounds like a very interesting question >indeed. > >Chris > > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 15:39:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA06809; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:26:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:26:37 -0700 Message-ID: <335BE97F.3FA6 worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:26:08 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; U; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: physiological impact of D20? References: <970421212325_100433.1541_BHG58-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QNi7O.0.Jg1.Sc-Mp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > However, you can't live on it unless you are > an amazingly primitive organism. Makes me wonder how people managed to live and breathe before oxygen was discovered. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 16:27:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA21678; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:17:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:17:28 -0700 Message-ID: <335BF54C.3247 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:46:28 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: neotech xbn.shore.net, newman-l@emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: OU Space Drive?????????? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VZHa53.0.WI5.6M_Mp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Just a short note. The space drive patent 5,142,861 claims the thrust increases as the square of the drive current. This seems ok at first as most magnetic effects are related to the square of the flux. But now we seemly can create thrust (energy) based on the square of the current (flux). Therefore the energy source for the thrust is NOT the current as at some point in the increase of the current, we will get more thrust (energy) than we are putting in. Seems we now have a OU space drive. This is wild. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 16:35:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA06459; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <335C04D5.8DD keelynet.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:22:45 -0700 From: Jerry Decker Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: W4W -> HTML format References: <2.2.32.19970421195913.00995d88 mail.airmail.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6Z7gI2.0.ra1.mS_Mp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts! (love it) Finally signed on to Vortex, so Greetings! Seeing there is some interest in the Wesley Gary Magnetic Neutral Zone motor, I dug up some files sent in by our late friend John Draper, and posted them at the KeelyNet site....specifically; http://www.keelynet.com/energy/gary.htm Also, a recent discussion provided some additional information on the Richard Clem engine....check out; http://www.keelynet.com/energy/clem2.htm seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 16:59:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA08465; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970421163409.00a4c788 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:34:10 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: physiological impact of D20? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"l90uR2.0.642.9c_Mp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At school we have fed our roommate a steady diet of D2O for 2 weeks (70% isotopic, obtained from the H2S pollution extraction [distilled], - cheap stuff) and at the beginning he had some stomach aches but they later went away and nothing unusual happened. After he found out we almost got expelled. I remember the poison control center told him that there was nothing to worry about. I was a stupid teenager then. At 03:48 PM 4/21/97 -0500, you wrote: >Can anyone provide info on the effects of D20 on the human body? > >Is there any noticeable effect of skin contact, ingestion, etc.? > >Could you live on D2O? > >Thanks. > > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > > >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 17:09:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA02541; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:02:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:02:40 -0700 Message-ID: <335C0DDF.218D keelynet.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:01:19 -0700 From: Jerry Decker Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: physiological impact of D20? References: <199704212048.PAA22670 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"y34JU1.0.dd.W00Np" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Scott! Years ago, I was curious about the same thing and found some interesting facts on how deuterium oxide affects tissue, check out David Jonssons mirror file at; http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/biology/d20.asc seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 17:18:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA12395; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3357AB74.EDD38ED verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:12:20 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Real Space Drive (1/4 Impluse Mr. Crusher......Engage) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_EdwD1.0.Z13.h__Mp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > I have attached the first page of US patent 5,142,861. > > It claims to be a US Gov patent to directly produce thrust from a highly > distorted magnetic field. > > Looks like you could build one in your garage. > > I can send the whole patent (480kb) to anyone interested. I had previously examined the patent. I think the main problem is: (the paragraph from page 9, tiff_16) "For use as the main propulsive system in an aerospace vehicle, a practical device requires from tens to 100s of kiloamps." Also I am not sure that the inventor build truly working prototype as described on the patent. Everything look like here as hypothetical. There is no figure about the performance of the engine. No comparison between different configuration. At this point, one can may decide to do such of these things: (all are supposed to lead successful results) 1) Build nothing but look for the principle. It may be based on a very known phenomenon by the physicists. But our technology is not enough to get profit on them. 2) Building a model for only testing whether such a thrust exist, and make theoretical work. After a long theoretical studies and getting familiar with exotic equations, it is very possible to find out the work is already done some 5 years ago. But nobody is interesting on it. The principle seem promising bu the design not. 2) Build nothing but look for the principle. It may be based to very known phenomenon known by the physicists. But our technology is not enough to get profit on them. 2) Build a toy and enjoy. 3) Build a superconductor version of this machine. At this point the original design will be radically changed while optimizing the effect by profiting from superconductor unique properties. As result original design may completely replaced by the Podketnov's like one. 4) Build the model. Although the the claimed effect not be seen. But others effects are observed. May its works like communication device passing speed light. Yes, I think it is enough. I know that I exaggerated the things some. hamdix (Istanbul,Turkey) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 17:24:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA12900; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970421180522.009de750 esa.lanl.gov> X-Sender: claytor_t_n esa.lanl.gov X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:05:23 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Thomas N. Claytor" Subject: Re: Claytor-Jones neutron detection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"35iyf.0.O93.340Np" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, we noted the coincidence but also acknowledged the fact that it didn't make it over the statistical limit. Any way it was interesting but I would be more comfortable with 3 or 4 repetitions. All of this was published in the Maui proceedings. Tom. At 09:20 PM 4/20/97 -0700, you wrote: >Scott Little wrote: >> >> 2-sigma deviations occur spontaneously about 5% of the time. Thus, >> given the info that Tom reported, there is no significant >> indication that his samples were emitting neutrons. >> > >Yes, but it is a non-ignorable "coincidence" that this same >sample was the only one that showed T content. That makes it >more special than a randomly chosen 2-sigma deviation. > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry > > http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm Thomas N. Claytor Claytor_t_n lanl.gov Los Alamos National Laboratory ESA-MT, MS C914 Los Alamos NM, 87545 505-667-6216 voice 505-665-7176 fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 17:55:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA19232; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:45:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: BB Pinch Switch Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:44:08 +0000 Message-ID: <19970422004406.AAA16120 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"5pfqM.0.Ni4.Ke0Np" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: When Frank Stenger is ready to go for the brass ring, I think BB's made of Zirconium Hydride-Deuteride, perhaps with a bit of Lithium Hydride-Deuteride added for good measure, should make an interesting experiment. Might have to up the voltage to around 15 Kilovolts though with at least 300 joules per pulse. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 19:34:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA04208; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 19:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 19:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <335C201C.16D5 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:19:08 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BB Pinch Switch References: <19970422004406.AAA16120 LOCALNAME> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MFvGy2.0.f11.F02Np" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > To Vortex: > > When Frank Stenger is ready to go for the brass ring, I think > BB's made of Zirconium Hydride-Deuteride, perhaps with a bit > of Lithium Hydride-Deuteride added for good measure, should make an > interesting experiment. > Frederick, you really need to check out "Farhat's Thesis Home Page" at: http://www.pp.ph.ic.ac.uk/~zn1/pub/ Check out his thesis and "The official Imperial College Plasma Physics Group Page" (Link from Farhat's page) re the "Magpie" fast Z-pinch rig. These guys are doing just what you have in mind - zapping small filaments of fission-stuff with fast meg-amp discharges. The Magpie rig is really neat: 1. They use a fairly slow Marx type surge generator to charge up the mother-of-all coax pulse lines. 2. Then, the coax pulse line is triggered to fire a meg-amp level pulse with rise times of about 55 nano-seconds thru the test filaments. Note the coax line (uses deionized water as a dielectric!) puts out a square-wave kind of pulse (I think) - as per the inductance that Robert E. has mentioned as important for stable pinches. (Please edit this as required, Robert! - I'm on thin ice here.) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 19:42:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA06344; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 19:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 19:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:51:16 -0500 (GMT) From: Carlos Henry Castano To: grupo de discusion Cc: John Steck Subject: Re: Synthesizing oil, and knowledge In-Reply-To: <9704071019.ZM2310 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"edNnZ3.0.-Y1.yE2Np" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, John Steck wrote: > SYNTHETIC FOOD WILL NOT SOLVE THE WORLD HUNGER PROBLEM. Who say: The atomic bomb not will work. and I speak how an expert in explosives ! "may be, THE SYNTHETIC FOOD WILL SOLVE THE WORLD HUNGER PROBLEM" > Still needs to be made from *something* even if the energy to do it is cheap. > That something is rarely in a convienient form or location. If you and I can > eat it, why wouldn't vermin? (if they wont, not sure I would want to either - > wisdom from the innocents, eh?). If basic transportation for simple > distribution is not available now, how can you even think of JIT??? You have a > faulty premise in there. The wood of the trees is a polimer of the glucose (xilose), and the carbone is your principal component, this carbone came from the CO2 in the air, not from the ground, may be I am no pragmatic man, but I think that I am razonable, if the trees can do it, why can't we do it?, in any way, what is the oil?, ancients trees with solar energy stored chemically in your molecules.... or not? Hmmm, I never say that this are science, this is only a dream, but not is impossible I think. Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo Laboratorio de Electroquimica Universidad Nacional de Colombia, Sede Medellin. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 20:30:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA13989; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:20:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:20:27 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:29:27 -0500 (GMT) From: Carlos Henry Castano To: grupo de discusion Subject: Excuse me please.... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vsVOD.0.UQ3.xv2Np" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Excuse me the last mail, I was not read the last mails about of stop de duscution..... Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo Laboratorio de Electroquimica Universidad Nacional de Colombia, Sede Medellin. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 22:39:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA01960; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:36:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Synthesizing oil, and knowledge Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 04:37:45 +0000 Message-ID: <19970422043743.AAA20684 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"Y3F8I3.0.XU.ev4Np" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:51 AM 4/22/97 +0000, Carlos wrote: > >Who say: >"may be, THE SYNTHETIC FOOD WILL SOLVE THE WORLD HUNGER PROBLEM" > >The wood of the trees is a polimer of the glucose (xilose), and the >carbone is your principal component, this carbone came from the CO2 in the >air, not from the ground, may be I am no pragmatic man, but I think that I >am razonable, if the trees can do it, why can't we do it?, in any way, >what is the oil?, ancients trees with solar energy stored chemically in >your molecules.... or not? > >Hmmm, I never say that this are science, this is only a dream, but not is >impossible I think. No, not impossible,Carlos just not practical. The technology for collecting CO2 from the atmosphere is a simple as using a solution of KOH and water in a spray. Electrolysis of water to get hydrogen for ammonia and acetylene synthesis. Hydration and carbonation of acetlyene to polysaccharides and carboxylic acids. Ammoniation of carboxylic acids to amino acids and condensation of amino acids to proteins, all doable with a source of cheap-available energy. However, the Sun bathes the Earth with 12,000 quads of energy daily. That is 12,000 times as much energy as man produces and uses daily. It provides about a kilowatt-hr/meter^2 over most of the earths surface and allows land and aquatic plants to produce food at up to several tonnes/hectare-yr over about 75 percent of the Earth's surface. Even in a pinch you could put a greenhouse next to a fossil fuel power plant near the North Pole and raise food with solar energy and the CO2 and heat coming from the smoke-stacks. As I said in an earlier post in this thread, the problems in regard to world hunger are political not technical. Best Regards, Frederick > >Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo >Laboratorio de Electroquimica >Universidad Nacional de Colombia, Sede Medellin. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 03:24:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA26998; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 03:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 03:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <335C907D.2059 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:48:37 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Real Space Drive (1/4 Impluse Mr. Crusher......Engage) References: <3357AB74.EDD38ED verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AooFc2.0.mb6.739Np" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > > > I have attached the first page of US patent 5,142,861. > > > > It claims to be a US Gov patent to directly produce thrust from a highly > > distorted magnetic field. > > > > Looks like you could build one in your garage. > > > > I can send the whole patent (480kb) to anyone interested. > > I had previously examined the patent. I think the main problem is: > > (the paragraph from page 9, tiff_16) > > "For use as the main propulsive system in an aerospace vehicle, a > practical device requires from tens to 100s of kiloamps." This is a pulse with a low rep rate. As an EE, I don't really see the pulse generation as the main problem. There is existing technology to do this and the patent uses a step down impedance matching tranformer to drive the antenna? (magnetic thruster) array. As the invention claims the thrust varies with the square of the pulse current, the thrust builds really quickly. > Also I am not sure that the inventor build truly working prototype as > described on the patent. Everything look like here as hypothetical. > There is no figure about the performance of the engine. No comparison > between different configuration. The many drawings and the descriotion seems to me to be a recipe to build based on actual construction. > At this point, one can may decide to do such of these things: (all are > supposed to lead successful results) > > 1) Build nothing but look for the principle. It may be based on a very > known phenomenon by the physicists. But our technology is not > enough to get profit on them. > > 2) Building a model for only testing whether such a thrust exist, and > make theoretical work. After a long theoretical studies and getting > familiar with exotic equations, it is very possible to find out the work > is already done some 5 years ago. But nobody is interesting on it. > The principle seem promising bu the design not. > > 2) Build nothing but look for the principle. It may be based to very > known phenomenon known by the physicists. But our technology is not > enough to get profit on them. > > 2) Build a toy and enjoy. This is the first logical step. Low cost KISS proof of principal. > 3) Build a superconductor version of this machine. At this point the > original design will be radically changed while optimizing the effect by > profiting from superconductor unique properties. As result original > design may completely replaced by the Podketnov's like one. > > 4) Build the model. Although the the claimed effect not be seen. But > others effects are observed. May its works like communication device > passing speed light. > > Yes, I think it is enough. I know that I exaggerated the things some. > > hamdix > (Istanbul,Turkey) Hi Hamdix, I intend to build a device soon. I believe others have already done to. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 05:49:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA09957; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 05:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 05:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <335CC05E.A9B rt66.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 06:42:54 -0700 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall rt66.com Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: physiological impact of D20? References: <199704212048.PAA22670 natasha.eden.com> <335C0DDF.218D@keelynet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"73XPD3.0.QR2.-7BNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, If life can transmute elements, then wouldn't there be a substantial evolutionary imputus to transmute deuterium or at least separate it out and eliminate it as a minor toxin? Some life forms might utilize any energy generated. I wonder about the vast array of strange microbes recently being found in deep rock, with ages now known to be 80-160 million years. Any evidence for deuterium anomalies in life? Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 06:02:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA26026; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 05:51:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 05:51:26 -0700 Message-ID: <335CB474.19D7 interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:52:04 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BB Pinch Switch References: <19970422004406.AAA16120 LOCALNAME> <335C201C.16D5@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Jh6ms2.0.aM6.DHBNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > filaments of fission-stuff with fast meg-amp discharges. > Sorry, I meant FUSION-stuff! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 06:33:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA16236; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 06:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 06:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:27:27 +0200 (METDST) Message-Id: <199704221327.PAA29845 imaginet.fr> X-Sender: lentin mail2.imaginet.fr X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jean-Pierre Lentin Subject: Re: physiological impact of D20? Resent-Message-ID: <"cfz0O.0.cz3.QpBNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I once asked, in an interview, this question to physicist Jose Teixeira, a well known (in the field) authority on water and heavy water physics and chemistry. Here is a translation of his answer : "It's a well known fact in biology. In principle, heavy water should not be different than ordinary water in living tissues. It's really very close, hydrogen bonds have almost the same energy. But it happens that life is not possible with heavy water. This is not a poison - you can drink a glass and nothing happens. It's just expensive. But if you keep on drinking only heavy water, water in your organism will be gradually replaced by this heaver water, ionic exchanges will be blocked, and the organism will die.It's a very subtle poison, kind of ideal for a perfect crime. Except it's very expensive and there are rules to obtain it." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jean-Pierre Lentin lentin imaginet.fr --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 08:37:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA02769; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:16:58 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:15:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970422111531_-1769260074 emout13.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Are we nutz. Resent-Message-ID: <"9qEkk3.0.Bh.cPDNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I leraned this..then... I am just about completed with my survey course in Nuclear physics and in optics. There is a lot I don't know..things such as Green's function, how to take the Hamiltonian of the system, Group theory, hypercharge, the Dirac equations, sphereical Bessel Functions, Ukawa Potential, differential cross sections, are just a few of the things that I really don't know much about. With each thing that I learn, I find that there was much more that I don't know. Many things baffel me such as, "The above is orthagonal in a complex plane and becomes unitary." "Plosson Bracket with the Hammontion= 0 carries on into MOS and commutes with the Hammoltonian". I also found out that there is a highly consistant body of knowledge that states that cold fusion, even at a few hundred electron volts, cannot happen. The cross section for reaction (micro barns) is just to low. The only conclusion that I can come to it that the energy being produced is not nucler but rather zero point as I originally concluded. Then Miley and others detected nuclear transformations. What a mess. I'm lost. .............................................................................. .......... Then I get the attached mail. Subj: Free Energy is available at this time. Date: 97-04-21 13:51:29 EDT From: 1r2h3 axxis.com (noemailreply) Reply-to: noReplyNeeded NotContactUagain To: InternetFriend Cyberspace Are You Tired Of Paying Those Expensive Electric Bills Every Month? Do You Live Out In The Middle Of No-Where Land, And The Power Company Wants To Charge You $30,000 To Get Power To Your Home? Are You Worried When Disaster Strikes, How Will You Get By Without Electricity?* *Will the Power Company Be Able To Restore Your Power Within a Reasonable Amount Of Time(In some cases it could takes weeks, or worse)? What About Our Fossil Fuel Supply? How Long Will It Last? What Will We Do If Another Energy Crisis Hits? Are You Concerned About What Carbon Dioxide Is Doing To Our Environment? Wouldn't You Rather Be Self-Sufficient? Wouldn't You Rather Not Be Reliant On The Power Company? Wouldn't You Rather Not Be Reliant On The Gas Company? IF YOU ANSWERED YES TO THESE QUESTIONS...READ ON. Is This A Government Assistance Program? Is This Some Kind Of New Utility Company Program? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! In fact the government and utility companies DO NOT want this kind of information getting out to the public. In fact these groups have gone to great efforts to stop this kind of information getting out to YOU! WHY??? MONEY!!! If there was a way to generate FREE ENERGY, what would happen to our Power Companies, and Fuel Companies? NO MORE MONEY FOR THEM!!! And of course the Government want's to protect it's Contributors and the taxes that it collects. So what can generate FREE ENERGY??? In 1975 a man named Robert Adams applied for a Patent at the Patent Office in Wellington New Zealand. He had an interesting device. Mr. Adams was very exited. He had an invention that would help people tremendously. This invention would save people and our planet the heavy costs to our environment that we are beginning to experience now. This device would literally free people of the burdens and heavy costs of Fossil Fuel Energy, as well as the hazardous problems of Nuclear Generated Energy. After attempts on his life, and suppression by the Government Mr. Adams had become to realize that inventors of devices that could generate FREE ENERGY were not only refused Patents, but in most cases their inventions were classified under the "Military Use Clause". Inventors with devices such classified are forbidden to publish details of their devices, and told not to promote them. Mr. Adams defied the suggestions to "Not talk about the device" and created a manual that shows diagrams and details on how he constructed such a device. It seems that certain high powered people want to keep the money they make from "Purchased Energy" coming in as long as they can. Conspiracies Conspiracies...I know, you've heard them before. But what if you could see the actual Patent Application, would you want to believe? No Problem, we can show you. So, if there was a Patent applied for, why haven't we heard about the product??? (I'll give you one guess...) SO, WHAT IS THIS DEVICE??? Mr. Adams called this new invention an Over-Unity Pulsed Electric Motor Generator. What does that mean? It is a device that converts the perpetual motion of sub-atomic particles, known in physics terminology as "particle spin", into conventional electric power. This device can be explained to be a motor or generator that has a rotor with a few radially arrayed magnetized poles, and a stator that has radially magnetized poles, along with a number of wound poles. In conventional motors there are heavy energy losses due to magnetic drag. Conventional motors also give off high operating temperature, which is a noticeable by-product of energy loss. This energy loss is due to motor inefficiency. Mr. Adams sought a way to overcome this magnetic drag and energy loss, which resulted in inventing a device that operates "over unity". Over Unity means that the device is functioning without a loss of energy during which time the device is generating energy...or...FREE ENERGY! Or...a device that produces more energy than it requires to function. In fact Mr. Adams has built several working generators that were tested for their electrical efficiency. They had an electrical efficiency of 690%, and a mechanical efficiency of 620%. These motors run at room temperature. Heat generation is a sure sign that a motor is not at least 100% efficient. These motors do not generate heat, therefore, they are at least 100% efficient. These motors defy thermodynamic laws! FREE POWER TO THE PEOPLE! How simple are these motors to build? Mr. Adams has compiled a very simple manual, loaded with diagrams, explanations, as well as articles published in New Zealand magazines that help any skilled backyard home scientist to build one. Now this manual is available to you. If you are a dyed-in-the-wool believer that known scientific laws cannot be broken, then this manual is not for you. If you believe that rules(laws) are meant be broken, then this manual is for you. This information is not readily available, and probably wont be until people begin to build these devices for themselves, and the "Establishment" has to comply with public demand for truth and change. Don't let this opportunity slip by; you have free energy to gain. Don't delay, Order your manual today. MONEY BACK GUARANTEE: Read over the Manual for 10 days. If you're not fully satisfied that this manual can help you build your own free energy generator then return it for a full refund. (order form - cut here) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- *** RH FACTS EASY ORDER FORM *** (#1)METHOD CREDIT CARD...FAX & SIGN THIS ORDER FORM TO 1-801-484-4435 (If using a credit card, card user's name and address must be written as appears on your credit card company records. The cardholders signature is needed as well). 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I just may be going soon back to work in a Steel mill and may give the whole mess up drop out of school and quit vortex. I can't make heads or tails out of any of it anymore. I've become stupified. Frank Znidarsic fznidarsic aol.com 481 Boyer St. http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html Johnstown, Pa. 15906 Automatic links: Home_Page Send_E-mail ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >From 1r2h3 mail.axxis.com Mon Apr 21 13:22:20 1997 Return-Path: <1r2h3 mail.axxis.com> Received: from cumulus.axxis.com ([207.173.153.4]) by mrin46.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-2.0.0) with ESMTP id NAA26350; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:22:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from axxis.axxis.com (ppp-32.axxis.com [207.173.153.104]) by cumulus.axxis.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA07872; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:13:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704211713.LAA07872 cumulus.axxis.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is <1r2h3 mail.axxis.com> From: "noemailreply" <1r2h3 axxis.com> To: InternetFriend Cyberspace Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:13:44 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Free Energy is available at this time. Reply-to: noReplyNeeded NotContactUagain Return-receipt-to: noReplyNeeded NotContactUagain Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 08:44:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA05587; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:39:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: fstenger interlaced.net From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: BB Pinch Switch Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:38:10 +0000 Message-ID: <19970422153808.AAA23645 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"HL1tV2.0.CN1.VkDNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:52 PM 4/22/97 +0000, >Francis J. Stenger wrote: >> >> filaments of fission-stuff with fast meg-amp discharges. >> >Sorry, I meant FUSION-stuff! > >Frank Stenger > > The Magpie page is very interesting, Frank. The 5 ohm 100 ns and 1.25 ohm 65 ns "lines" can also be flat lines: Z = (spacing/width)*(uo/k*eo)^1/2 (ohms)and pulse velocity v = 1/(uo*k*eo)^1/2. time = width/velocity. The water dielectric (k = 80) makes for higher capacitance. Also the Marx generator "switches" are losing a lot of energy. I still think that letting the BB's act as the switch would simplify things and put the energy where you need it and when you need it. :-) Thoughts? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 09:16:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA04110; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:07:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:07:45 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:07:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704221607.MAA24102 spectre.mitre.org> To: fstenger interlaced.net CC: frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-reply-to: <335C201C.16D5 interlaced.net> (fstenger@interlaced.net) Subject: Re: BB Pinch Switch Resent-Message-ID: <"Am_Wa2.0.401.G9ENp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis J. Stenger (fstenger interlaced.net) asked: > Note the coax line (uses deionized water as a dielectric!) puts > out a square-wave kind of pulse (I think) - as per the inductance > that Robert E. has mentioned as important for stable pinches. > (Please edit this as required, Robert! - I'm on thin ice here.) No editing required. The big fallacy of the early pinch experiments was to try to lower the impedance to get a faster rise-time. This leads to a whole slew of instabilities. For a stable pinch you need an impedence which can store as much energy as the pinch. (And of course if all the energy was initially stored there, that condition holds.) The other "trick" which I'm not sure that the Magpie folk are doing or can do is to use either a nearby wall or plasma to slow/prevent the kink instabilities. I don't know if they could fire two threads, the second when the waves from the first are reflected back, or even just fire twice, the second time down the track of the first. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 09:16:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA07793; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:55:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704221555.LAA23979 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <3357AB74.EDD38ED verisoft.com.tr> (message from Hamdi Ucar on Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:12:20 +0400) Subject: Re: Real Space Drive (1/4 Impluse Mr. Crusher......Engage) Resent-Message-ID: <"34eAg2.0.ev1.Y-DNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi Ucar (hamdix verisoft.com.tr) said: > "For use as the main propulsive system in an aerospace vehicle, a > practical device requires from tens to 100s of kiloamps." > Also I am not sure that the inventor build truly working prototype as > described on the patent. Everything look like here as hypothetical. > There is no figure about the performance of the engine. No comparison > between different configuration. Assuming that this is the patent I think it is, it is very well founded in current physics. However, making practical use of it is tricky, and would have been beyond the pale before the discovery of high-temperature superconductors. If you think about it as a magnetic field sail, then things become clearer. For takeoff from earth, you would want to be near one of the magnetic poles, and since the maximum thrust is limited by the amount of magnetic flux cut, you need a very large lightweight ring. So, yes you could build one in say northern Canada, cool it with liquid N2 and test it. Take it high enough during the winter and before it warms up the outside temperature will be low enough to keep it cool. Bascially you are building a magnetic bubble when you apply the power, and the Earth's magnetic field repels it. Allows you to keep the power plant on the ground. (Again assuming high temperature superconductors.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 09:48:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA13672 for billb@eskimo.com; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:48:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: fepps halcyon.com Tue Apr 22 09:48:30 1997 Received: from halcyon.com (nobody chinook.halcyon.com [198.137.231.20]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA13599 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from by halcyon.com with SMTP id AA24230 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:46:49 -0700 Message-Id: <335CB655.3F1 mail.halcyon.com> Old-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 06:00:05 -0700 From: "Fred B. Epps" Organization: Pegasus Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: re: are we nutz? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: Hi Frank and all: Rest easy. The Adams motor generator is a rather primitive motor with about 40% efficiency. Great promotion though! Don't go to work in the steel mill yet :-) Fred ref: "Experimental Analysis Of The Adams Pulsed Motor- Generator" by Ashley Gray in INE proceedings 1994 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 10:04:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA10852; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:45:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:45:25 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970422164434.00adc230 mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:44:34 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Fogal Transistor: Tom Bearden Glossary of Terms Resent-Message-ID: <"6DxqA.0.Uf2.aiENp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tom Bearden has put together a glossary of some of the terms he used in his paper describing the theory behind the Fogal Transistor: http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/fogal_device/glossary.htm Currently, the glossary is all one page (250K), and is not yet linked word-by-word from the paper itself, but I thought some of you that have been watching Tom Bearden's material might want to take a look at it for its general purpose value. I would certainly say it helps. One caviat: The paper he wrote was 30 pages when printed. The glossary explaining the terms -- 60 pages. :) (I think the Fogal Transistor is for real. It is beginning to look like it will be put to good use, and if so, it will change the world of communications, to say the least). Gary Hawkins ------------------------------------------------------------------ Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------------ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 10:30:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA18273; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:14:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:15:57 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are we nutz. Resent-Message-ID: <"m8vrP.0.QT4.w7FNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank Z said: >....... I also found out that >there is a highly consistant body of knowledge ..... Ah, yes! Scientists didn't just make up all of modern physics and chemistry for the fun of it. Data and logic (mathematics) forced them to it, in order to be consistent. And it is still an on-going process. >that cold fusion, >even at a few hundred electron volts, cannot happen. The cross section for >reaction (micro barns) is just to low. So, 'cold fusion', whatever it may ultimately turn out to be, isn't cold fusion. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 10:44:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA22503; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:27:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:27:37 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:29:34 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are we nutz. Resent-Message-ID: <"5myHY3.0.XV5.8KFNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Subj: Free Energy is available at this time. [snip lots of conspiracy theory stuff] >.....It is a device that converts >the perpetual motion of sub-atomic particles, known in physics >terminology as "particle spin", into conventional electric power. Spin energies, at least as far as those involved in magnetization, are on the same order as chemical energies. No big free energy there. >.....In conventional motors there are heavy energy losses due to >magnetic drag. Conventional motors also give off high operating >temperature, which is a noticeable by-product of energy loss. This >energy loss is due to motor inefficiency. The above is either ignorance or a lie. Electric motor inefficiencies are not dominated by 'magnetic drag'. Cheap motors obtain only about 70% efficiency, but quality ones exceed 90%---certainly not 'heavy energy losses'. >MONEY BACK GUARANTEE: ... You hope. >[ ] PLEASE RUSH ME ADAMS "FREE ENERGY" GENERATOR MANUAL FOR ONLY $49.00 Yes, 'RH Facts' want your money, too, just like the big bad everyones they allude to in the conspiracy theory paragraphs. I'm suspicious when they can't make and sell working machines from their own plans. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 10:49:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA22645; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BC4F4B.7B038120 ppp259.enterprise.net> From: Mike Butcher To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Fogal Transistor: Tom Bearden Glossary of Terms Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:27:43 +0100 Encoding: 17 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"E6uEm3.0.iX5.fQFNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: As a matter of interest, is any company planning to build it in to a useful device yet ? Mike Butcher (I think the Fogal Transistor is for real. It is beginning to look like it will be put to good use, and if so, it will change the world of communications, to say the least). Gary Hawkins ------------------------------------------------------------------ Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------------ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 10:52:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA27523; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:47:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:47:24 -0700 Message-ID: <335CF9D2.7923 interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:48:02 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are we nutz. References: <970422111531_-1769260074 emout13.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Dqoba.0.yj6.gcFNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > (snip) > > I just may be going soon back to work in a Steel mill and may give the whole > mess up drop out of school and quit vortex. I can't make heads or tails out > of any of it anymore. I've become stupified. > Snap out of it, Frank! It sounds to me like you have just achieved the "ultimate wisdom" - that none of us really knows crap! Cheer up and have some fun! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 11:29:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA02233; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:19:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:19:03 -0700 Message-Id: <335CCBF7.5236 mail.halcyon.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 07:32:23 -0700 From: "Fred B. Epps" Organization: Pegasus Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: re: are we nutz? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LmtPN.0.oY.L4GNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Frank, Rest easy. The Adams Motor-Generator is a rather primitive motor with about 40% efficiency. Great promotion though! Don't get a job in a steel mill yet :-) Fred Ref: "Experimental Analysis Of The Adams Pulsed Motor-Generator" by Ashley Gray in INE proceedings 1994 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 11:46:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA05634; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:39:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:39:16 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:39:07 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704221839.NAA07315 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: physiological impact of D20? Resent-Message-ID: <"Aofub1.0.yN1.JNGNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6221 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 15:27 4/22/97 +0200, Jean-Pierre Lentin wrote: >But if you keep on drinking only heavy water, water in your >organism will be gradually replaced by this heaver water, ionic exchanges >will be blocked, and the organism will die. Sounds quite reasonable to me. Thanks for all the info, Vorts, including the anecdote about feeding D2O to a roomate at school!... Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 13:23:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA18371; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:11:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: BB Pinch Switch Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:09:55 +0000 Message-ID: <19970422200954.AAA14606 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"mc2wg.0.xU4.TjHNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:07 PM 4/22/97 +0000, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > >The big fallacy of the early pinch >experiments was to try to lower the impedance to get a faster >rise-time. This leads to a whole slew of instabilities. For a stable >pinch you need an impedence which can store as much energy as the >pinch. (And of course if all the energy was initially stored there, >that condition holds.) In a matched "line" where the line impedance is equal to the terminating impedance (in this case the pinch?) there are no reflections of the input pulse,would this be what you want, Robert? A "flat line" can be made using Al2O3, or TiO2, or BaTiO3 as a dielectric (that will withstand a hundred kilovolts or so) sandwiched between a pair of heavy metal plates. With the end of this "flat line" in a vacuum environment with a set of graphite plates spaced so that a BB dropped in makes contact between the graphite (or other refractory conductors) the initial impedance is going to be in milliohms, which is easily achieved according to, Z = (spacing/width)* (uo/k*eo)^1/2 (ohms). Going by this a pair of plates two meters wide separated by a couple of millimeters of "ceramic" with a k of 200 would give an impedance of about 27 milliohms and a pulse velocity of about 2.12E7 meters/second on the line. Or a transit time of about 47 nanoseconds/meter. As I see it, the capacitor bank would charge itself and the plates-line, and the "BB Switch" would discharge the line accordingly when the BB closed the circuit. This would simplify things greatly? Where did I go wrong? :-) > > > Robert I Eachus > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 14:32:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA05257; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:23:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:23:58 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <335D2C67.D10 math.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:23:51 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are we nutz. References: <970422111531_-1769260074 emout13.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ngUAr3.0.3I1.knINp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Re: the title: isn;t that what I've been trying to tell you :-) FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > > I found out that there is a highly consistant body of knowledge > that states that cold fusion, even at a few hundred electron > volts, cannot happen. The cross section for reaction > (micro barns) is just to low. > Well, welcome to the club. I hate to say I told you so, but this is what scientists having been pointing out for the past 8 years. Anyone who is ignorant of the above is hard to take seriously. > The only conclusion that I can come to it that the energy > being produced is not nuclear Well, you still jump to the conclusion that energy is being generated at all. This remains to be established to the satisfaction of the scientific community. Refer to your consistent body of knowledge above. But, I am not entirely negative. The proper lesson to take away from your studies is that large scale CF probably has nothing to do with standard nuclear physics. There is still the *slight* possibility that some here-to-fore unrecognized class of nuclear reactions (or reaction regime) might exist. There is, I think, the greater possibility that CF observations are based on some actual physical phenomena (not simply error), but this phenomena does not require new nuclear physics to understand. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 15:12:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA14127; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:01:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:01:29 -0700 Message-ID: <335D3452.1ADD ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:57:38 +0000 From: Craig Haynie Reply-To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Blacklight Power References: <199704221839.NAA07315 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"H7o1-1.0.US3.tKJNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Apparently, Penn State University, on contract from Blacklight Power, has released the final report on their latest study of Mill's system. The summary can be found on their website. I would hope that the complete report will be available soon. Here's the first paragraph of the summary: "Tests for heat production associated with hydrino formation were carried out with two types of calorimeters during the period October-December, 1996. Experiments carried out in a modified Calvet system yielded extremely exciting results. Specifically, initial results are apparently completely consistent with the Mills' Hydrino formation hypothesis. In three separate trials between 10 and 20 K Joules were generated at a rate of 0.5 watts, upon the admission of approximately 10^-3 {?} moles of hydrogen to the 20cm^3 Calvet cell containing a heated platinum filament and KNO^3 powder. This is equivalent to the generation of 1*10^7 J/mole of hydrogen, as compared to 2.5*10^5 J/mole of hydrogen anticipated from standard hydrogen combustion. Thus the total heats generated appear to be two orders of magnitude too large to be explained by conventional chemistry, but the results are completely consistent with the Mills' model. It must be noted that although the results presented in this report are very exciting, they require further verification. Moreover, it should be noted that some control studies are not yet complete." Hasta, Craig Haynie ccHaynie ix.netcom.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 16:52:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA21381; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <335D4B02.76D microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:04:26 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Real Space Drive (1/4 Impluse Mr. Crusher......Engage) References: <199704221555.LAA23979 spectre.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HNCTg1.0.zD5.kkKNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6225 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > Hamdi Ucar (hamdix verisoft.com.tr) said: > > > "For use as the main propulsive system in an aerospace vehicle, a > > practical device requires from tens to 100s of kiloamps." > > > Also I am not sure that the inventor build truly working prototype as > > described on the patent. Everything look like here as hypothetical. > > There is no figure about the performance of the engine. No comparison > > between different configuration. > > Assuming that this is the patent I think it is, it is very well > founded in current physics. However, making practical use of it is > tricky, and would have been beyond the pale before the discovery of > high-temperature superconductors. > > If you think about it as a magnetic field sail, then things become > clearer. For takeoff from earth, you would want to be near one of the > magnetic poles, and since the maximum thrust is limited by the amount > of magnetic flux cut, you need a very large lightweight ring. So, yes > you could build one in say northern Canada, cool it with liquid N2 and > test it. Take it high enough during the winter and before it warms up > the outside temperature will be low enough to keep it cool. Bascially > you are building a magnetic bubble when you apply the power, and the > Earth's magnetic field repels it. Allows you to keep the power plant > on the ground. (Again assuming high temperature superconductors.) > > Robert I. Eachus Hi Robert, If you read the patent, I believe you will see this is not the case. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 17:31:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA29887; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:23:04 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: More on the flying lawn chair. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"f378h1.0.vI7.aQLNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6226 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For those with not enough time for some humour delete this message now! I got a great laugh from the description of this years Darwin Award winner. I this email message with some other descriptions of Larry's Flying Lawn Chair. >From: Ross Nelson >Subject: Re: 1997 Darwin Award Winner >Sorry, this is an old story....but...IT IS TRUE. It didn't happen recently >but on July 2, 1982. Here are the original (supposedly) AP and UPI reports. > >Associated press (unverified): >>LONG BEACH, Calif. (AP) -- A truck driver with 45 weather balloons >>rigged to a lawn chair took a 45 minute ride >>Friday up to 16,000 feet before he got cold, shot some balloons >>with a BB gun and crashed into a power line, officials >>said. >> >>"I know it sounds strange, but it's true," Long Beach police >>Lt. Rod Mickelson said after he stopped laughing. Larry >>Walters, 33, of North Hollywood, was uninjured. The Federal Aviation >>Administration was not amused. Regional safety >>inspector Neal Savoy said the flying lawn chair was spotted by >>TWA and Delta jetliner pilots at 16,000 feet above sea >>level. "We know he broke some part of the Federal Aviation Act," Savoy >>said. "If he had a pilot's license, we'd suspend >>that. But he doesn't." >> >>Police said Walters went to his girlfriend's house in San Pedro >>Thursday night, inflated 45 six-foot-tall weather balloons >>with helium and attached them to an aluminum lawn chair tethered to the >>ground. >> >>Friday morning, with half a dozen friends holding the tethers, >>Walters donned a parachute, strapped himself into the >>chair and had his friends let him up slowly. Minutes later he was >>calling for help on the CB radio he had with him. >> >>"This guy broke into our channel with a mayday," said Doug >>Dixon of an Orange County citizen's band radio club. "He >>said he had shot up like an elevator to 16,000 feet and was >>getting numb...He sounded worried but he wasn't panicked." >>However, after puncturing several of the balloons, Walters' BB pistol >>fell overboard and the chair drifted downward. >>The ropes entangled in a power line, briefly blacking out a small area >>of Long Beach. The chair dangled five feet above >>ground and Walters was able to get down safely. > >United Press International (unverified): >>(UPI) LONG BEACH, Calif. -- Look, up in the sky. Is it a bird, a >>plane, the space shuttle? No, it's Larry Walters at >>16,000 feet in his lawn chair. >> >>Walters, 33, a truck driver, spent nearly two hours in the air >>on Friday in an aluminum lawn chair suspended from a >>50-foot cable attached to 45 helium-filled balloons. >> >>Among other things, he threw a scare into a couple of airline >>pilots who happened across the path of his weird flying >>contraption. >> >>"I know it sounds strange but it's true," said a Long Beach police >>officer. "The guy just filled up some balloons with >>helium, strapped on a parachute, grabbed a BB gun and took off." >> >>But everything didn't go as planned and Walters had a few dicey >>moments as he started getting numb in the cold >>atmosphere at 16,000 feet and decided to descend -- which he >>accomplished by popping some of the balloons with the BB >>gun. As he neared the ground he saw power lines. >> >>"That's when I got scared," he said. "Those things can fry you." >> >>He didn't get fried, the balloons draped themselves across the wires, >>leaving Walters dangling in his chair a few feet from >>the ground and he dropped to earth. The landing knocked out power >>in the neighborhood for 20 minutes. >> >>"I have fulfilled my 20-year dream," said Walters, a truck driver >>for a company that makes TV commercials. "I'm >>staying on the ground. I've proved to myself that the thing works." >> >>In addition to the BB gun and the parachute, Walter carried several >>one-gallon water jugs for ballast, a life vest and a CB >>radio. >> >>"But the best piece of equipment was the lawn chair," Walters >>said. "It was a Sears. It was extremely comfortable." >> >>Walters told authorities that he was trying to drift to the Mojave >>Desert, site of Sunday's scheduled space shuttle >>Columbia landing, but the winds didn't cooperate. >> >>"I wasn't trying to upstage the space shuttle," Walters said. "I >>would have landed well away from there. I just wanted to >>lay back and enjoy it all, but I had to do something when my toes >>started getting numb." >> >>Police said they probably would not file charges against Walters. >>But the Federal Aviation Administration was >>investigating, mainly because of the scare Walters gave the airline >>pilots who came across him at 16,000 feet in his flying >>lawn chair. > > >Unverified: > Other sources of various reliability say he was fined $10K (later > reduced to $1500) and that he committed suicide a year later 10/83). > >-- ross > >Ross Nelson When evolution is outlawed, >http://www.dnai.com/~ross/ only outlaws will evolve. > And later Ross also forwarded this: A little searching has revealed some offical-looking archives. See: http://www.nitehawk.com/alleycat/walters.html for the stories (including suicide story). And http://www.panix.com/clay/stupid/upaway.gif for a newspaper photo. Who says I have too much time on my hands? mailto:bills alink.net http://www.alink.net/~bills voice mail: +1 408 792 3573 "Hello Titanic, this is the Hindenberg. We are here to rescue you, send up a flare" -- Paul Edwards * IT Consultant * email: p.edwards its.unimelb.edu.au Services Delivery, ITS * Phone: +61 3 934 44624 The University of Melbourne * Fax: +61 3 9347 4803 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 18:12:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA16560; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:53:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:53:10 -0700 Message-ID: <335D5D53.23B8 skylink.net> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:52:35 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: antigravity primenet.com Subject: Re: Real Space Drive (1/4 Impluse Mr. Crusher......Engage) References: <199704221555.LAA23979 spectre.mitre.org> <335D4B02.76D@microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bco013.0.g24.rrLNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6227 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Regarding: US Patent #5142861, "Nonlinear Electromagnetic Propulsion System", Rex Schlicher et al. 1992 There have also been a couple of papers published about this device. See references and abstracts below. In my opinion this device is one of the few electromagnetic propulsion devices which is in the "known to work" category. The inventor is an ex air force officer, living in Albuequerque NM, and is continuing with self development of the invention, and also reported to be considering offers for licensing it. The USAF is reported to be developing this type of propulsion device at Wright Patterson -- maybe elsewhere. The immediate use is thought to be satellite station keeping. There is no published theoretical analysis of how it works. The inventor seems inclined to believe that it works because the unusual geometry of the antenna conspires to "keep" the energy of a changing EM in the near field, rather than allowing it to radiate. My take on how this might work is quite different. In my opinion, maybe it works to some extent because it does radiate, in a unidirectional fashion. The apparatus looks like an antennna backed up by some "reflector" mechanisms. Energy which flows away unidirectionally, must carry linear momentum, and hence the device must move in a counter direction. Attach a radiating antenna to a parabolic reflector. Put some real power into it -- say about 50 Kw. Assuming all of the 50 Kw radiates and/or bounces off in the same direction, you will get some thrust in the opposite direction. But not very much. The equivalent momentum of 50 Kw -- 50 joules divided by c squared each second. An almost negligible amount. This invention claims to get much more than this. Anyone have a clue how it might? Regards, Robert Stirniman ========================================================================= Mechanical Propulsion From Unsymmetrical Magnetic Induction Fields" by: R.L. Schlicher A.W. Biggs W.J. Tedeschi 31st AIAA/ASME/SAE/ASEE Joint Propulsion Conference and Exhibit, July 10-12 1995 A method is presented for generating mechanical spacecraft propulsion from unsymmetrical magnetic induction fields. It is based on an unsymmetrical three-dimensional loop antenna structure driven by a repetitively-pulsed high-current power supply. Antenna geometry is optimized for generating propulsive thrust rather than radiating electromagnetic energy. A magnetic field density gradient imbalances the magneto-mechanical forces that result from the interations of the internal magnetic induction field with the current in the conductors of the antenna structure. "Nonlinear Electromagnetic Propulsion System and Method", R.L. Schlicher Nineteenth Power Modulation Symposium of the IEEE, 1990 Page 139 From owner-antigravity ftp1.primenet.com Tue Apr 22 18:14:47 1997 Received: from ftp1.primenet.com (root ftp1.primenet.com [206.165.5.50]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA20585 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:14:44 -0700 Received: (from root localhost) by ftp1.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA13514 for antigravity-outgoing; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:53:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com (root usr01.primenet.com [206.165.5.101]) by ftp1.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA13508 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:53:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from primenet.com (mailhost05.primenet.com [206.165.5.56]) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA29654 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:53:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from skylink.skylink.net (skylink.skylink.net [206.25.34.2]) by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA06253 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:56:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from skylink.skylink.net (ppp175.max3.las-vegas.nv.skylink.net [207.49.184.175]) by skylink.skylink.net (8.8.5/4.1.4) with SMTP id RAA14315; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <335D5D53.23B8 skylink.net> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:52:35 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: antigravity primenet.com Subject: [Antigravity] Re: Real Space Drive (1/4 Impluse Mr. Crusher......Engage) References: <199704221555.LAA23979 spectre.mitre.org> <335D4B02.76D@microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-antigravity ftp1.primenet.com Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: We are "In Search Of . . ." answers together. Each posting must reflect personal respect, integrity, honesty, and full disclosure of information. ---------- Regarding: US Patent #5142861, "Nonlinear Electromagnetic Propulsion System", Rex Schlicher et al. 1992 There have also been a couple of papers published about this device. See references and abstracts below. In my opinion this device is one of the few electromagnetic propulsion devices which is in the "known to work" category. The inventor is an ex air force officer, living in Albuequerque NM, and is continuing with self development of the invention, and also reported to be considering offers for licensing it. The USAF is reported to be developing this type of propulsion device at Wright Patterson -- maybe elsewhere. The immediate use is thought to be satellite station keeping. There is no published theoretical analysis of how it works. The inventor seems inclined to believe that it works because the unusual geometry of the antenna conspires to "keep" the energy of a changing EM in the near field, rather than allowing it to radiate. My take on how this might work is quite different. In my opinion, maybe it works to some extent because it does radiate, in a unidirectional fashion. The apparatus looks like an antennna backed up by some "reflector" mechanisms. Energy which flows away unidirectionally, must carry linear momentum, and hence the device must move in a counter direction. Attach a radiating antenna to a parabolic reflector. Put some real power into it -- say about 50 Kw. Assuming all of the 50 Kw radiates and/or bounces off in the same direction, you will get some thrust in the opposite direction. But not very much. The equivalent momentum of 50 Kw -- 50 joules divided by c squared each second. An almost negligible amount. This invention claims to get much more than this. Anyone have a clue how it might? Regards, Robert Stirniman ========================================================================= Mechanical Propulsion From Unsymmetrical Magnetic Induction Fields" by: R.L. Schlicher A.W. Biggs W.J. Tedeschi 31st AIAA/ASME/SAE/ASEE Joint Propulsion Conference and Exhibit, July 10-12 1995 A method is presented for generating mechanical spacecraft propulsion from unsymmetrical magnetic induction fields. It is based on an unsymmetrical three-dimensional loop antenna structure driven by a repetitively-pulsed high-current power supply. Antenna geometry is optimized for generating propulsive thrust rather than radiating electromagnetic energy. A magnetic field density gradient imbalances the magneto-mechanical forces that result from the interations of the internal magnetic induction field with the current in the conductors of the antenna structure. "Nonlinear Electromagnetic Propulsion System and Method", R.L. Schlicher Nineteenth Power Modulation Symposium of the IEEE, 1990 Page 139 ---------- TO LEAVE THE LIST, send a message to: majordomo primenet.com with the one line message of: unsubscribe antigravity From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 18:19:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA05967; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970423010632.006653a4 sparc1> X-Sender: kennel sparc1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:06:32 +0900 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Elliot Kennel Subject: Re: Physiological Impact of D2O Resent-Message-ID: <"oIwpu1.0.8T1.J4MNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6228 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott, One way to find out about toxicity is to consult an expanded Materials Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). One such can be found at gopher://gopher.chem.utah.edu:70/11/MSDS/D: EFFECTS OF OVEREXPOSURE: PROLONGED CONTACT MAY CAUSE SKIN IRRITATION. INGESTION MAY IMPAIR KIDNEY FUNCTION, CREATE NERVOUS SYSTEM DISTURBANCES, HORMONAL IMBALANCE, AND ANEMIA MAY OCCUR WHEN CONCENTRATION IN BODY FLUIDS REACHES 10%. DEATH OCCURS WHEN CONCENTRATION IN BODY FLUIDS EXCEEDS 30%. So despite the assurances from some of the various experts in our forum, deuterium oxide is a poison. I think that the toxicity is due to the difference in the ability of heavy water to diffuse through cell membranes compared to light water (but I'm not an expert on this, so I'm not sure). I believe Chris is correct that very few microorganisms can survive in pure D2O. Incidentally there have been some studies on biological cold fusion relating to this. According to Vysotskii et al (ICCF-6 p 688), bateria which can survive include deionococcus radiodurans M-1, bacillus subtilis GSY 228, Escherichia coli K-1 and yeast culture saccharomyces cerevisiae T-8. Best regards, Elliot Kennel Sapporo Japan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 19:20:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA32016; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:05:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:05:53 -0700 Message-ID: <335D6E5E.426A skylink.net> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:05:18 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: A-G and the APS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MxsYZ2.0.Aq7.0wMNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6229 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here are some recent excerpts about anti-gravity from "Whats New", a newsletter edited by Mr Bob Park for the American Physical Society, the leading edge society for conventional thinking. Anti-gravity is clearly not a subject to be taken seriously. Simple experiments like Tohaku or Tampere, which give anomalous results, are something done primarily by amateurs and crackpots. No sense getting serious about something unless it involves hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars, such as we are pissing away on pet boondoggle projects such as LIGO -- a major advancement in science prestige building and pocket lining. Don't you know. Perhaps Mr Park will be somewhat surprised when he learns that the Tampere experiment has recently been repeated by reputable scientists at a major US university. ================================================= September 27, 1996 THE PODKLETNOV GRAVITY SHIELD: CLAIM NOT BEING TAKEN LIGHTLY. Who needs rocket fuel? NASA is trying to duplicate the device, which consists of a rotating superconducting disk. In 1989, two Japanese scientists reported in PRL that a gyroscope weighs less if its spin vector is down. After the New York Times covered it in a story that quoted me, I was flooded with calls: most claimed to have had the idea first, several said they had a patent on it, others pointed out that flying saucers work that way, and one explained he had done his research with a frisbee (WN 5 Jan 90). Bob Park can be reached via email at opa aps.org February 7 1997 THE PODKLETNOV GRAVITY SHIELD: BUSINESS WEEK LEVITATES AGAIN It was the light-weight story of 1996: a rotating superconducting disk that reduced the weight of an object placed above it (WN 27 Sep 96). Now Business Week is at it again in the February 17 issue. According to the story, John Schnurer at Antioch College measured a 5% drop in weight with such a shield, and scientists at NASA are eagerly trying to repeat the measurement. Ho Jung Paik, a leading gravity experimentalist at Maryland, said he was aware of the earlier claim, but dismissed it: "gravity is such a weak force that errors are difficult to avoid." When told of the Business Week story, Arthur Komar, head of Gravitational Physics at NSF, said, "I'm speechless." After he stopped laughing, he added: "This is inappropriate for Business Week to report on; Business Week has no standards or criteria by which to evaluate scientific claims. It should be left to scientific journals." Bob Park can be reached via email at opa aps.org ======================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 20:15:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA09821; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:05:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:05:10 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:09:53 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Physiological Impact of D2O Resent-Message-ID: <"I6EpS.0.NP2.bnNNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6230 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Just a thought, Depending onthe source of the D2O, it might be contaminated with T2O. DOn't know how dangerous that is, but it could play havoc with experiments, like contact exposure of negatives, etc. In the early 60's, while pipetting digitalis extract labelled with about 1 curie of tritium, in order to do chromatography to extract labelled components, I accidently got a mouthful. No change to me as far as I know. I'm just as abnormal now as before the event. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 20:43:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA28621; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <335D81BE.7EB gorge.net> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:27:58 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are we nutz References: <199704230031.RAA01155 mx2.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0URGh2.0.5_6.c1ONp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6231 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FrankZ: Maybe this will help. At least it should give you a good laugh. Cold Fusion, cavitation, and Brown's Gas. (a half baked theory) Consider cavitation: tiny "bubbles,' which expand and contract; the contractions apparently exhibiting extremely high temperature and pressure; collapsing bubbles emit UV radiation; when in contact with a metal surface, they produce pits, etc., thought to be caused by a "jet of plasma," ejected from the cavitation. Consider the characteristics of "Brown's Gas": the decompositon of water, in controlled circumstances, which yields a gas mixture of hydrogen and oxygen in the same stoichiometric ratio as in water. It is believed to be composed, at least partially, of monoatomic hydrogen and oxygen. It is said to quickly melt/vaporise any metal. A relatively pure mixture of BG is said to "implode," rather than explode. With less authority, it is alleged to turn radioactive isotopes into stable isotopes. Is it possible that many of the effects in cavitations are the result of Brown's Gas? Perhaps the cavitation bubbles are composed, at least partially, of BG. The BG could be formed initially from the decomposition of water by mechanical, sonic, or electrical disruption. This decomposition of liquid water into gas could be responsible for the expansion of the cavitation bubble. When the local decomposition causing energy is exhausted, the BG is somehow induced to ignite, causing an *implosion* which further collapses the bubble. When hydrogen is burned in *air* broad spectrum Ultra Violet radiation is produced. It seems likely that either the monatomic H to molecular H2 reaction, or the H2+O = H20 reaction, or the overall implosion of the bubble, would emit UV, if not "far UV" (a la Mills). This would account for UV produced by cavitation collapse. This UV, and/or the very high temperatures found in cavitation collapses, could dissociate more water, so the bubble cycles again. (Visible light from cavitation, or sonoluminescense, is apparently a special case in which trace gasses, such as Argon, absorb UV, and emit visible light.) So, even if the above speculation turns out to be true, what does it have to do with Cold Fusion? Well, it all boils down to "excess heat." Consider that BG is said to melt/vaporize metal, out of proportion to its presumed caloric content. BG can melt pits in metal. Cavitation melts pits in metal. CF electrodes almost certainly produce Brown's Gas, being low voltage, low power electrodes in ionized water. When the pits in the electrodes, beads, etc. resolidify, the heat of fusion must be released into the cell. This resolidification could continue after the input power is turned off, giving "heat after death" The apparent excess heat in the Griggs/Yusmar type devices could result from BG pitting the propellers, or other surfaces. If the claims of transmutation for BG are accurate, it is reasonable to assume that BG combustion could be the catalyst, or provide the necessary environment, for the transmutations and ash found in cold fusion. Of course, this is mere speculation, but it suggests that finding out how and why Brown's Gas flame reacts with nickel, etc. may lead to finding out what is happening in "cold fusion." Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 20:54:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA22075; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:47:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:47:57 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970423034721.00ae0850 mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:47:21 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: RE: Fogal Transistor: Tom Bearden Glossary of Terms Resent-Message-ID: <"A5ERJ3.0.oO5.iPONp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6232 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:27 PM 4/22/97 +0100, you wrote: >As a matter of interest, is any company planning to build it in to a useful device yet ? > >Mike Butcher Not today. But tomorrow morning could be a different matter. Gary Hawkins ------------------------------------------------------------------ Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------------ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 21:11:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA25983; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:05:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:05:11 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:04:55 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are we nutz. In-Reply-To: <970422111531_-1769260074 emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"P5XlY1.0.vL6.sfONp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6233 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > I also found out that > there is a highly consistant body of knowledge that states that cold fusion, > even at a few hundred electron volts, cannot happen. The cross section for > reaction (micro barns) is just to low. > > The only conclusion that I can come to it that the energy being produced is > not nucler but rather zero point as I originally concluded. Then Miley and > others detected nuclear transformations. What a mess. I'm lost. > Frank, now you have some inkling how good Physics-as-we-know-it is, you can appreciate some of sceptisim shown towards CF. On the other hand you have witnessed first hand something I was willing to risk my reputation to investigate. Think carefully about your observations, was the flow rate really of the order of a litre per minute through the POWERGEN cell? Could you be sure there really was an 8 - 16 degree C temperature rise across the cell? Do you actually feel the difference in temperature between the inlet and outlet temperature? If the answer is "yes" to these questions then we have duty investigate what the hell is going on. "There are more things in Heaven and Earth..." Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 21:30:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA00700 for billb@eskimo.com; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:30:36 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:30:36 -0700 X-Envelope-From: et snowcrest.net Tue Apr 22 21:30:34 1997 Received: from mtshasta.snowcrest.net (mtshasta.snowcrest.net [206.245.192.1]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA00665 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:30:32 -0700 Received: from brahman (ttyD8.mtshasta.snowcrest.net [206.245.192.40]) by mtshasta.snowcrest.net (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA18297; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704230430.VAA18297 mtshasta.snowcrest.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.0544.0 From: "Michael Mozina" To: Cc: Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Re: Real Space Drive (1/4 Impluse Mr. Crusher......Engage) Old-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:34:27 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BC4F64.F441AD00" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0544.0 X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC4F64.F441AD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>Attach a radiating antenna to a parabolic reflector. Put some real = power into it -- say about 50 Kw. Assuming all of the 50 Kw radiates = and/or bounces off in the same direction, you will get some thrust in = the opposite direction. But not very much. The equivalent momentum of 50 = Kw --50 joules divided by c squared each second. An almost negligible = amount. >>This invention claims to get much more than this. Anyone have a clue = how it might? If the parabolic dish was made of a superconduction material and = "antenna" generated strong magnetic waves perhaps this would acheive = greater thrust....Humm...maybe... You guys are going to force me to spend money investigating this stuff, = and my wife is going to tough to convince..... ------=_NextPart_000_01BC4F64.F441AD00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    >>Attach a radiating antenna to a = parabolic=20 reflector. Put some real power into it -- say about 50 Kw. Assuming all = of the=20 50 Kw radiates and/or bounces off in the same direction, you will get = some=20 thrust in the opposite direction. But not very much. The equivalent = momentum of=20 50 Kw --50 joules divided by c squared each second. An almost negligible = amount.

    >>This = invention claims=20 to get much more than this. Anyone have a clue how it might?

    If the parabolic dish was made of a superconduction material and=20 "antenna" generated strong magnetic waves perhaps this would = acheive=20 greater thrust....Humm...maybe...

    You guys are going to force me to spend = money=20 investigating this stuff, and my wife is going to tough to=20 convince.....<g>

     

    ------=_NextPart_000_01BC4F64.F441AD00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 22 21:34:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA05785; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:25:38 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are we nutz. Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 04:24:43 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <33628af8.19488342 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0z_J03.0.IQ1.0zONp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:15:57 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >Frank Z said: >>....... I also found out that >>there is a highly consistant body of knowledge ..... > >Ah, yes! Scientists didn't just make up all of modern physics and >chemistry for the fun of it. Data and logic (mathematics) forced them to >it, in order to be consistent. And it is still an on-going process. > >>that cold fusion, >>even at a few hundred electron volts, cannot happen. The cross section for >>reaction (micro barns) is just to low. So look at situations in which the cross section is increased. (hint take a look at the Breit-Wigner formula.) > >So, 'cold fusion', whatever it may ultimately turn out to be, isn't cold fusion. > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > > Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-antigravity ftp1.primenet.com Tue Apr 22 21:54:38 1997 Received: from ftp1.primenet.com (root ftp1.primenet.com [206.165.5.50]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA08194 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:54:36 -0700 Received: (from root localhost) by ftp1.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA27693 for antigravity-outgoing; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:30:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (root usr02.primenet.com [206.165.5.102]) by ftp1.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA27681 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:30:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from primenet.com (mailhost05.primenet.com [206.165.5.56]) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA25228 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:30:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from mtshasta.snowcrest.net (mtshasta.snowcrest.net [206.245.192.1]) by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA15589 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:34:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from brahman (ttyD8.mtshasta.snowcrest.net [206.245.192.40]) by mtshasta.snowcrest.net (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA18297; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704230430.VAA18297 mtshasta.snowcrest.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.0544.0 From: "Michael Mozina" To: Cc: Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Re: Real Space Drive (1/4 Impluse Mr. Crusher......Engage) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:34:27 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BC4F64.F441AD00" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0544.0 Sender: owner-antigravity ftp1.primenet.com Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: We are "In Search Of . . ." answers together. Each posting must reflect personal respect, integrity, honesty, and full disclosure of information. ---------- This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC4F64.F441AD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>Attach a radiating antenna to a parabolic reflector. Put some real = power into it -- say about 50 Kw. Assuming all of the 50 Kw radiates = and/or bounces off in the same direction, you will get some thrust in = the opposite direction. But not very much. The equivalent momentum of 50 = Kw --50 joules divided by c squared each second. An almost negligible = amount. >>This invention claims to get much more than this. Anyone have a clue = how it might? If the parabolic dish was made of a superconduction material and = "antenna" generated strong magnetic waves perhaps this would acheive = greater thrust....Humm...maybe... You guys are going to force me to spend money investigating this stuff, = and my wife is going to tough to convince..... ------=_NextPart_000_01BC4F64.F441AD00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    >>Attach a radiating antenna to a = parabolic=20 reflector. Put some real power into it -- say about 50 Kw. Assuming all = of the=20 50 Kw radiates and/or bounces off in the same direction, you will get = some=20 thrust in the opposite direction. But not very much. The equivalent = momentum of=20 50 Kw --50 joules divided by c squared each second. An almost negligible = amount.

    >>This = invention claims=20 to get much more than this. Anyone have a clue how it might?

    If the parabolic dish was made of a superconduction material and=20 "antenna" generated strong magnetic waves perhaps this would = acheive=20 greater thrust....Humm...maybe...

    You guys are going to force me to spend = money=20 investigating this stuff, and my wife is going to tough to=20 convince.....<g>

     

    ------=_NextPart_000_01BC4F64.F441AD00-- ---------- TO LEAVE THE LIST, send a message to: majordomo primenet.com with the one line message of: unsubscribe antigravity From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 02:47:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA21666; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <335DA033.5339 worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:37:56 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; U; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A-G and the APS References: <335D6E5E.426A skylink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oG0ZL3.0.QI5.-eTNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6235 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Stirniman wrote: > > Perhaps Mr Park will be somewhat > surprised when he learns that the Tampere > experiment has recently been repeated by > reputable scientists at a major US > university. Could you elaborate on that? What were the results? When will the results be published, etc. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 02:49:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA21927; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:43:13 +0200 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Eudora F1.5.1 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: jlagarde cyberaccess.fr (Jean_de_Lagarde) Subject: Re: Blacklight Power Resent-Message-ID: <"xrfIf2.0.XM5.zhTNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6236 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Could Craig Haynie or someone else give us the address of Penn State University's Home page ? Jean DeLagarde From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 03:43:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA28519; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 03:37:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 03:37:20 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 03:37:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Barry Merriman Message-Id: <199704231037.DAA06222 joshua.math.ucla.edu> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are we nutz. Resent-Message-ID: <"Wcklw.0.Xz6.WPUNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6237 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk refers us to the Breit-Wigner formula and his web page for illumination on how reaction cross sections can be greatly increased. There, his thesis is that co-moving nuclei have zero relative momentum and thus long (infinite) DeBroglie wavelenghts in their common co-moving reference frame. As I have noted before, and I think Robin has agreed, the above assertion is simply false. The above assertion can be evaluated within standard physics, and it is 100% false. Robin, I wish you would quite knowingly spreading disinfomation about quantum mechanics. I don't see what purpose it serves. If you want to maintain your overall theory, the least you could do for he sake of accuracy is say that your assertions about DB wavelengths are technically false, but as a possible formal heuristic, they suggest there may be something interesting about comoving nuclei. That is still being pretty charitable towards your reasoning, but at least it doesn't blatantly contradict standard QM anymore. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 04:31:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA29840; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 04:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 04:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 03:29:42 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Blacklight Power Resent-Message-ID: <"alWVe3.0.6I7.P6VNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6238 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:43 AM 4/23/97, Jean_de_Lagarde wrote: >Could Craig Haynie or someone else give us the address of Penn State >University's Home page ? > Jean DeLagarde To answer your question: . However, maybe you want the summary info referenced on on the Blacklight home page, at , i.e. the "Final report for period October-December 1996 In fulfillment of Service Contract with HydroCatalysis Power Corp. (now BlackLight Power, Inc.) REPORT ON CALORIMETRIC INVESTIGATIONS OF GAS-PHASE CATALYZED HYDRINO FORMATION"? The report states: "In three separate trials between 10 and 20 K Joules were generated at a rate of 0.5 Watts, upon the admission of approximately 10 -3 moles of hydrogen to the 20cm 3 Calvet cell containing a heated platinum filament and KNO 3 powder. This is equivalent to the generation of 1*10 7 J/mole of hydrogen, as compared to 2.5*10 5 J/mole of hydrogen anticipated from standard hydrogen combustion. Thus the total heats generated appear to be two orders of magnitude too large to be explained by conventional chemistry .." Well, a COP of 100, not bad! At least we get a picture of the device now. Heated platinum filiment, H2 gas, "pot" of KNO3 as central electrode. Seems unusual to me to combust the hydrogen. Why not run with H2O? The summary also mentions a failed attempt to do calorimetry in a water bath calorimeter: "Unfortunately, no evidence of 'excess heat pro-duction' was found. This can be linked to a failure to maintain the catalyst ions (K+) in a vapor phase. Specifically, it is hypothesized that the KNO 3 catalyst evaporated from the containing pot at the reactor center, where the temperature is high, and deposited on the reactor walls, which are cold due to immediate contact with the calorimeter water bath. (That is, the catalytic material is 'cryo-pumped' by the cold walls.) Indeed, at the conclusion of the experiment, when the reactor was removed from the water bath, the walls of the quartz reactor were observed to be white in the general vicinity of the pot which contained KNO3." So an insulator is needed. Seems like not a big deal to have insulated and tried again. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 05:42:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA05564; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:33:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:33:12 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:33:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: W4W -> HTML format thanks. In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970421112820.009ad220 aa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Ugizp2.0.sM1.76WNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6239 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortex, Thank you all for your suggestions. >From what I can glean, there is:- Netscape Gold: cut and paste in from other docs., format problems etc. MS Internet Assistant freebie for W4W Word97 Well done. At my end I'll try and get my papers out as soon as possible. I`ll keep you posted on what experiments (or proposed) I try. Got PCT patent search back. One cited patent. I'll think of a way around the legalise to secure a claim. Sorry, but I'll have to keep mum on the search for now. There's always an opportunity... I'm considering contacting the orginal patentees or buying their product and modifying it. Going to start contacting local people for encapsulation facilities. Building up money base by working, you might not see me some days. Go to it boys (and girls!) Remi. ................................................................. To only theorise about nature is the height of arrogance. Does one think God really gives a frig! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 05:53:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA07859; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:47:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:47:38 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:46:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re HTML, welcome newcommer In-Reply-To: <335C04D5.8DD keelynet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vMSyw3.0.iw1.fJWNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6240 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Welcome Jerry, Thanks for your html suggestion. Don't let the veterans worry you... even less the turks. Watch out for Chris `tina` Tinsley though... Remi. On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Jerry Decker wrote: > Gnorts Vorts! (love it) > > Finally signed on to Vortex, so Greetings! > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 05:59:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA09307; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:55:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:55:09 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:54:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: No offence meant with term turk. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"nRfNg3.0.LH2.iQWNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortex, I used an expression 'watch out for the turks`. I notice one (or more) of the subscribers is from Turkey. If you found this racially derogative, my sincerest apologies. It was meant in the common parlance (in everyday English) as young hot heads. But I'm sure this is about as apologetic as saying `N.gger in the woodpile' means a source of un-welcome trouble and is just colourful language. Is this forum P.C? I heard Hilary Clinton lurks... Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 06:23:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA09565; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 06:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 06:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:03:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: physiological impact of D20? Separation In-Reply-To: <335CC05E.A9B rt66.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"eteLC.0.IL2.KcWNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Rich, Isotopes have same chemical properties, right? So should be no effect. However being more massive, they diffuse more slowly etc. I vaguely remember of preferential metabolsim of lighter glucose for this reason. This does lead to preferential separation of isotope in living processes where chain after chain of reactions happen. Can't give you any references. Suggest you try all the usual ones like, Encyclopedia Britannica, McGraw Hill Encyclopedia of Science etc. And follow the citation list - as every diligent researcher knows. Have fun, Remi. On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Rich Murray wrote: > Vorts, > > If life can transmute elements, then wouldn't there be a substantial > evolutionary imputus to transmute deuterium or at least separate it out > and eliminate it as a minor toxin? Some life forms might utilize any > energy generated. I wonder about the vast array of strange microbes > recently being found in deep rock, with ages now known to be 80-160 > million years. Any evidence for deuterium anomalies in life? > > Rich Murray > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 06:58:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA17203; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 06:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 06:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970423135034.006890e8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:50:34 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: cold fusion may have conventional physics explanation Resent-Message-ID: <"xuXQo3.0.iC4.aHXNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:23 PM 4/22/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: > There is, I think, >the greater possibility that CF observations are based on >some actual physical phenomena (not simply error), but this >phenomena does not require new nuclear physics to understand. > This may be true. Hot fusion provides activation energies of > 1 MeV enabling reactions which might therefore not occur in cold fusion. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 07:28:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA21854; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 07:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 07:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:22:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704231422.KAA26654 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <19970422200954.AAA14606 LOCALNAME> (frederick.sparber@worldnet.att.net) Subject: Re: BB Pinch Switch Resent-Message-ID: <"5TINp.0.LL5.2jXNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber (frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net) asked: > In a matched "line" where the line impedance is equal to the > terminating impedance (in this case the pinch?) there are no > reflections of the input pulse,would this be what you want, > Robert? It helps. But the problem I'm telling you how to avoid is "necking." The self-induced magnetic field comes from the current which is constant along the length of the arc. However, due to normal density fluctuations, the plasma pressure will vary. Where there is less mass, the pinch pulls tighter, and this forces plasma forward and backward out of this neck. Let this go on, and you break the circut when there is no plasma left in the neck and the pinch dies. How does the impedence help? With no impedence, the charge separation (seen as capacitance) caused by the neck will keep the current flowing until the neck breaks. With enough impedence these electrons and ions see enough of a voltage drop across the neck to be acclerated through. If the impedence is matched to the pinch, this increases the plasma pressure in the neck. (The particles will move quickly toward the neck and are slowed as they move through, then accelerated out the other side.) This is a tricky one for people to understand--you calculate kilovolts per centimeter drops, but if you do it right you only see a smooth drop of tens of volts per centimeter. > Going by this a pair of plates two meters wide separated by a > couple of millimeters of "ceramic" with a k of 200 would give an > impedance of about 27 milliohms and a pulse velocity of about > 2.12E7 meters/second on the line. Or a transit time of about 47 > nanoseconds/meter. I've have never tried doing things this way. I always preferred a system where a flowing current was switched into the spark gap, usually by quenching an arc (see previous discussion). If you pre-ionize the gas/plasma this works pretty well. I always wanted to try a powerful but narrow (< 1 millimeter diameter) laser beam to establish the conduction path. The optical and timing problems seemed formidable, but it should make kinks a lot less of a problem. > As I see it, the capacitor bank would charge itself and the plates-line, > and the "BB Switch" would discharge the line accordingly when the BB > closed the circuit. This would simplify things greatly? > Where did I go wrong? :-) Its a Zen thing. People keep trying to get all the power into the pinch, whereas the better approach is to create the pinch with a minimum of disruption. The trick is to establish a good pinch, then throw the power in. Second, if you do it right, pinches are easy. Most of mine measured about two feet (61 cm) between electrodes, and I was able to sustain some at less than 100 volts. (The higher plasma pressure, the higher the voltage drop you have to tolerate, so that was low pressure.) BUT, the voltage drop is seen as you force the plasma in--as it expands, you see the reverse. With "stable" pinch--and we are talking stable over milliseconds here--the voltage drop will bounce around something terrible. I've seen fluctuations that were ten to one hundred times the average drop, with rise times in the 10^12 volt/second range. The current, on the other hand, is very smooth if you do it right. (Well smooth is relative. The pulse will go to kiloamps in microseconds, then drop to zero just as fast. A better description might be to say that the second derivative of the current is well defined, while the voltage is chaotic.) Oh, one last problem in this domain. You need hollow electrodes. If the pinch touches the tip of the electrode you will vaporize the metal. And there are no good low-Z high refractory alloys you can use. But do things just right and you can blow plasma out of that hole in the tip of the electrode and attach the arc to that. You don't need a full blown plasma torch, just a small hole in the tip with a reservoir behind. Of course, I wouldn't worry about this part until you have plasma temperatures in the 10 eV range or higher. Get the hard part done first. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 07:55:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA31298; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 07:46:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 07:46:23 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:46:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704231446.KAA27846 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (message from Martin Sevior on Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:23:04 +1000 (EST)) Subject: Re: More on the flying lawn chair. Resent-Message-ID: <"yBbFH3.0.ye7.-2YNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: He was nominated for the Darwin Award, but didn't qualify since he hadn't killed himself. Maybe that's why the suicide? Anyway here is a more recent nominee... 1997 Darwin Award Nominee Here is another nominee for the 1997 Darwin Award. For those who don't know, the Darwin Award is an annual commendation given posthumously to the individual whose withdrawal from the gene pool significantly advances human evolution. Apparently, a man upset after a spat with his girlfriend decided to grab a sixpack and search for some solitude from which to engage in some constructive self-examination. Public service officials later pieced the story together. Driving along I-91 south of Hartford, Connecticut, the fellow spied a metal power transmission line tower and decided that would do. There he sat, 60 feet above the highway, drinking his beer and pondering the mysteries of the universe. After 5 beers though, he needed to do what most people need to do after 5 beers. The 150,000 volts of electricity arced straight to his highly- conductive stream, traveled up it to its highly-grounded source, and blew the poor dumb shmuck clean off the tower. Power company personnel observed a momentary outage on this line and sent a crew to investigate. They arrived on the scene to find on the ground a dead man, his fly down, and what little was left of his instrument still smoking. On the top of the tower they found a single unfinished beer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Top 8 comments heard at the scene: 8. "Talk about a weenie roast..." 7. "I guess fried stuff really will kill you...." 6. "He died with his boots on, but...." 5. "I've heard of a Johnson fuse, but..." 4. "One hell of a blowjob...." 3. "What a way 'to go'..." 2. "Ouch..." ...and the #1 comment heard at the scene: 1. "So...anyone going to drink that?" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 08:09:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA02357; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:00:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:00:50 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970423110041_1650930061 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: range of force interaction Resent-Message-ID: <"ZYo_Y3.0.ka.XGYNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Miller This is what I think. As before I suspect that the range of force interaction changes in systems containing condensed charges. Magnetic. The Missner Effect excludes magnietic flux lines from superconductors. Permeability = 0, an external magnetic field must "go around" the superconductor and therefore has a longer way to travel. A longer range. Electric. Isolated electric charges cannot exist within superconductors. Resistance = 0, Any induced electric fields will have a dipole formulation. The field produced by a dipole saturates. The range of the electric field is shorter. The range of the electric field is about the same as the magnetic field. Gravity. My paper, "The Source of Inertial and Grav Mass" shows that gravity is produced by force. gravity = G(dp/dt)/(ccr). Its a long story but the range of the gravitational field should follow the same trends as the range of electromagnetic fields and become shorter. This is why the experiments at Marshall are so critical. I believe that the published reports are real. Nuclear...The nuclear forces should follow the same trends and become longer. What nuclear force? It can't be the strong or the week force. If the range of these forces increased matter would be crushed out of existance. Does the I spin force change range? How can it? It's not even in real space! If it did protons would convert into neutrons and vise versa..there should be a signature for Beta decay. Spin orbit...I think yes...The extension of the spin orbit force would allow for the production of stable elements. It likes to pare and produce stable elements. That is what we have got stable elements. It's range depends on the closure of the wavefucntion around a nucleon. Condensed systems have large wavefunctions that could enclose may nucleons. What it the cross section??? I didn't get that far yet. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 08:49:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA14392; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:38:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:38:47 -0700 From: travis vgernet.net Message-ID: <335E2D44.DB2 vgernet.net> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:39:48 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Blacklight Power References: <199704221839.NAA07315 natasha.eden.com> <335D3452.1ADD@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"m1rEP1.0.mW3.6qYNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Craig Haynie wrote: > > Apparently, Penn State University, on contract from Blacklight Power, > has released the final report on their latest study of Mill's system. > > The summary can be found on their website. I have been following Mills for some years. I have his book, (well writen with lots of experimental support for his theories) My question for the group is --- Has mention ever been made about "shrunken atoms" other than Hydrogen?? The theories don't seem to preclude it but I have never seen him point to data that would indicate that it can happen. Can this relate to Joe Champions work or David Hudson's ORMES ??? Regards, Travis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 09:22:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA14261; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704231610.JAA00609 popmail.UCSD.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Bart Simon" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:11:58 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Blacklight Power Reply-to: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: <335E2D44.DB2 vgernet.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Resent-Message-ID: <"a0YBX3.0.fU3.3JZNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6248 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings, Travis writes: > I have been following Mills for some years. I have his book, (well > writen with lots of experimental support for his theories) My question > for the group is --- > Has mention ever been made about "shrunken atoms" other than Hydrogen?? Just on this point, can anybody speculate on the possible connections between Mill's theories and Jean Pierre Vigier's. Back in the days of Bill Page's ICCF-5 group I seem to remember some discussion of Vigier's ideas which also had to do with some notion of a "shrunken" atom or at least a the presence of some "tight bohr orbit" in solid state. I interviewed Vigier back in '94 and then his big thing was that everyone should look for X-rays... I have no idea what he says, if anything, about transmutations. My immediate reference for this is the paper Vigier presented at ICCF-4: "New Hydrogen (Deuterium) Bohr Orbits in Quantum Chemistry and "Cold Fusion" Processes" -- (sorry I don't have a better reference for this at the moment). cheers, Bart ============================================ Bart Simon Dept. of Sociology/Science Studies-0533 University of California at San Diego (UCSD) 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA, 92093-0533 phone: 619-534-0491/fax: 619-534-3388 =========================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 10:20:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA05435; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:15:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:15:09 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: BB Pinch Switch Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 17:14:27 +0000 Message-ID: <19970423171425.AAA11828 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"IHpEs1.0.rK1.SEaNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:22 PM 4/23/97 +0000, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > It helps. But the problem I'm telling you how to avoid is >"necking." The self-induced magnetic field comes from the current >which is constant along the length of the arc. However, due to normal >density fluctuations, the plasma pressure will vary. Where there is >less mass, the pinch pulls tighter, and this forces plasma forward and >backward out of this neck. Let this go on, and you break the circut >when there is no plasma left in the neck and the pinch dies. > > How does the impedence help? With no impedence, the charge >separation (seen as capacitance) caused by the neck will keep the >current flowing until the neck breaks. With enough impedence these >electrons and ions see enough of a voltage drop across the neck to be >acclerated through. If the impedence is matched to the pinch, this >increases the plasma pressure in the neck. (The particles will move >quickly toward the neck and are slowed as they move through, then >accelerated out the other side.) This is a tricky one for people to >understand--you calculate kilovolts per centimeter drops, but if you >do it right you only see a smooth drop of tens of volts per >centimeter. > It seems that intentionally getting the "necking" and high di/dt is what I would want as opposed to a stable low temperature pinch that you are after, Robert. If I start out with a "BB" (0) say 0.3 cm diameter and drop it into a cup thusly: | | | 0 |---- (V+) |/ \| | |----- (V-) the thing should rapidly melt and initially pinch into a cylinder about 0.3 cm diameter by 0.3 cm long, but the ends against the conductive (graphite)electrodes should see less current density and pinch less than the midsection. In short intentional instabilities that will push the temperatures up to what will be of interest for BB's made a mix of Fusion Fuels with a high Z carrier. Remember also, that the chamber is under a vacuum of 2.0E-5 Torr or so. > I've have never tried doing things this way. I always preferred a >system where a flowing current was switched into the spark gap, >usually by quenching an arc (see previous discussion). > > Its a Zen thing. People keep trying to get all the power into the >pinch, whereas the better approach is to create the pinch with a >minimum of disruption. The trick is to establish a good pinch, then >throw the power in. Second, if you do it right, pinches are easy. >Most of mine measured about two feet (61 cm) between electrodes, and I >was able to sustain some at less than 100 volts. (The higher plasma >pressure, the higher the voltage drop you have to tolerate, so that >was low pressure.) > > BUT, the voltage drop is seen as you force the plasma in--as it >expands, you see the reverse. With "stable" pinch--and we are talking >stable over milliseconds here--the voltage drop will bounce around >something terrible. I've seen fluctuations that were ten to one >hundred times the average drop, with rise times in the 10^12 >volt/second range. This is interesting from my viewpoint. The current, on the other hand, is very smooth if >you do it right. (Well smooth is relative. The pulse will go to >kiloamps in microseconds, then drop to zero just as fast. A better >description might be to say that the second derivative of the current >is well defined, while the voltage is chaotic.) Better fusion results with "controlled" chaos? :-) > > Robert I. Eachus > >with Standard_Disclaimer; >use Standard_Disclaimer; >function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 10:43:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA29671; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:30:06 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Remi Cornwall Resent-Message-ID: <"fJcn41.0.WF7.1TaNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:54 AM 4/23/97, Remi Cornwall wrote: >Vortex, > >I used an expression 'watch out for the turks`. I notice one (or more) of >the subscribers is from Turkey. If you found this racially derogative, my >sincerest apologies. It was meant in the common parlance (in everyday >English) as young hot heads. > >But I'm sure this is about as apologetic as saying `N.gger in the >woodpile' means a source of un-welcome trouble and is just colourful >language. Oh, Oh, digging yourself in deeper! You can't win when it comes to PC! 8^) > >Is this forum P.C? I heard Hilary Clinton lurks... >Remi. Is this true? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 11:31:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA09390; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:19:03 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970423141804_-1735612308 emout07.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: the key to low level nuclear transformations Resent-Message-ID: <"tXOmb3.0.bI2.KAbNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6251 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The key to low level nuclear transformations is the range of the spin orbit force. This force has a formulation similar to the electromagnetic force. Is it electromagnetic in origin? I don't know. It's formulation is to be sure electromagnetic. There are two key components of this force SPIN and ORBIT. I ask, "What is the ORBIT in a condensed system?" A look at the electromagnetic force in condensed systems holds the answer. Example the magnetic flux around a long current carrying wire drops off at 1/r. A line intergral along any path around the wire yields a constant value of flux. As the flux becomes weaker with distance the length of the path increases. If the spin orbit force is electromagnetic in origin the amount of it around ANY CLOSED LOOP should equal a constant. The wavefunctions of condensed matter provide such a loop. The condensation provides the closure. This closure allows the spin orbit force to interact with many bodies. Similar electromagnetic effects result in the interger spins of superfluids in small cups. What is the cross section? I can't even do a one body problem. Nobody can do an N body problem. We may never know! What do you think? Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 11:50:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA27119; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:38:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:38:45 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:38:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704231838.OAA29985 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <335E2D44.DB2 vgernet.net> (travis@vgernet.net) Subject: Re: Blacklight Power Resent-Message-ID: <"nxBL72.0.ad6.qSbNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: travis vgernet.net said: I know that this is going to seem crazy but... Imagine an "atom" where you have a stationary electron with a proton orbiting it. This construct doesn't seem to be outlawed by physics, but it will be very unstable. Now take two stationary electrons and have two protons orbiting the axis between them. IF you can construct this, it will be much more stable. Two protons, one spin up one spin down on opposite sides of a planar orbit. There may even be more than one stable orbit diameter. (Even if these "inside out" molecules have a smaller volume than H2, pressure wouldn't be enough to force the state.) Okay, one other detail. It seems to me that the energy levels of such an "atom" could bracket those of the conventional hydrogen atom. If this is what Mills is creating, it certainly has a chance to match the observations. Now lets look at what happens when you substitute deuterium. The mechanics get more complex, but if you can create one, you will quickly see fusion. In particular d + d ---> p + t almost exclusively. So this may be what Mills has found a catalyst for in the hydrogen case, and if the "inside out" atoms are created inside palladium in response to high loadings, it could explain what is going on there. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 12:31:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA18736; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:11:36 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Blacklight Power Resent-Message-ID: <"linPN3.0.ga4.rtbNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:38 PM 4/23/97, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > travis vgernet.net said: > > I know that this is going to seem crazy but... Imagine an "atom" >where you have a stationary electron with a proton orbiting it. This >construct doesn't seem to be outlawed by physics, [snip] > > So this may be what Mills has found a catalyst for in the hydrogen >case, and if the "inside out" atoms are created inside palladium in >response to high loadings, it could explain what is going on there. > > > Robert I. Eachus SPECULATING: The low mass of the electron prohibIts this inside out atom, doesn't it? However, suppose and electron cluster of 10^5 electrons is formed (miracle 1). The cluster not only has the mass, but the charge to attract *multiple* protons into orbit. It seem like, provided the electron cluster is not ripped apart by the protons (miracle 2), that the protons, bing massive, would have a small orbital radius, thus numerous opportunities for fusion. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 12:47:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA24091; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <335DE4F4.5495A447 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:31:16 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Real Space Drive (1/4 Impluse Mr. Crusher......Engage) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dhY5H1.0.Ku5.ELcNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hamdi Ucar wrote: >> >> Greg Watson wrote: >> >> >> "For use as the main propulsive system in an aerospace vehicle, a >> practical device requires from tens to 100s of kiloamps." >This is a pulse with a low rep rate. As an EE, I don't really see the >pulse generation as the main problem. There is existing technology to >do this and the patent uses a step down impedance matching transformer >to drive the antenna? (magnetic thruster) array. > >As the invention claims the thrust varies with the square of the pulse >current, the thrust builds really quickly. Yes, pulse generation may not the problem but cooling the device is: Suppose that you build the antenna and the impedance matching transformer exceptionally good, so their total ohmic resistance become low as 4 mili Ohms. for 10K amps voltage drop will be 40V and the dissipation became 400 kW. Assume that only %10 duty cycled pulses are generated, dissipation will drop to 40 kW. I think it is not easy to keep cool such a device while try to measure it's (unmentioned) thrust. I don't mean it is impossible but obviously impractical unless superconductors are used. (May immersing the device in a cooling liquid may help but probably it's (para)magnetic properties will mess the things. I also believe that generally anomalous results and side effects will be generated if one push the conditions to the extreme values. For example things (frogs) start floating in air when 16 Tesla is applied on them dues their tiny paramagnetic properties. Good engineering is obtaining these results while keeping conditions in acceptable range according the technology used. Robert Stirniman wrote: > Attach a radiating antenna to a parabolic reflector. Put > some real power into it -- say about 50 kW. Assuming all of > the 50 kW radiates and/or bounces off in the same direction, > you will get some thrust in the opposite direction. > But not very much. The equivalent momentum of 50 kW -- > 50 joules divided by c squared each second. An almost > negligible amount. > > This invention claims to get much more than this. > Anyone have a clue how it might? > Although it is assumed that NOT the classical EM radiation should be responsible for the anomalous momentum, both ohmic and the inductive impedance should be regarded as causing losses. So any design aimed to produce unconventional effects by converting electrical energy to kinetics should be acceptably effective (e.g. 0.01), and not dissipate it's energy in conventional ways(I means it is still acceptable convert only one percent of the energy to kinetic and the 99 to EM radiation and to the heat) * * * Two weeks ago I tried to design a kind of coil having no or neglectable impedance (theoretical) but producing some magnetic fields.(influenced by recent bifilar discussions): My proposed coil like a single layered solenoid having some hundreds windings. But like as unintentionally walked on it, flatten. Now this like a bulk of copper loops laying on the same plane. It is possible to bend this strange strip to form a cylindrical shape so all the individual winding normals to the center of the cylinder.(this is a anti-torus design).If energized one magnetic pole will be positioned on the center of the cylinder and oriented radially. May the residual magnetic dipole be also canceled by adding two loop each one placed on the edges of the cylinder. So what we can do with this cool coil? The clue is: Supposed that it's inductance is very low, we should able to pass high frequency currents without convert them to electromagnetic radiation but obtaining an unconventional high frequency magnetic field around. May these fields gives what we needed. May it's be interesting to build two of them and try to send signals in between by not allowing passing EM waves as placing them in separate faraday cages. This is the simplest design to build, If it exhibits some odds effects, these can be improved as shaping the individual windings from circular to rectangular etc. Obsolete warning: This design has nosense acording our textbooks. May it will be useful to write down a copyright notice as (C)Copyright Hamdi Ucar, 1997 Best Regards, Hamdix From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 12:49:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA07536; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:35:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:35:19 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:39:57 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"GtGmD1.0.dr1.sHcNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts vorts! SPECULATION ALERT! In a uniform magnetic field coming out of the page, thermal positive ions will tend to rotate in a clockwise circle, negative ions will tend to rotate in a conter-clockwise circle. If the magnetic field is non-uniform, a gradient stronger at the bottom of the page than at the top, then drift occurs. Positive ions will tend to drift (creep) to the right, negative ions to the left. The drift is caused by the fact that the cyclotron radius is smaller on the bottom portion of the loop. Thus positive ions move in long arcs to the right and short acs to the left, for example. The above implies that in the proposed magnetic gradient, the energy from ambient heat can be used to form an electrostatic gradient, negative to the left and positive to the right. With a completed circuit, the configuration takes thermal energy from ions in the magnetic field gradient and converts it to current. Such a test would result in low, possibly almost undetectable energies, but a positive result should disprove the principle of entropy. How to test? Plasmas require lots of energy to maintain, so maybe produce too much noise. Electrolyte, may be a possibility, but the ions are massive and highly confined. A superconductor seems like the logical choice, if the effect is feasible to generate. Using a superconductor requires that the field be strong enough to penetrate the surface to some small degree, in order to induce cyclotronic electron motion. (Might disrupt the pairs, destroying the SC effect?) On the other hand, could drift (creep) inducement account for the "longitudinal force" that initiates the Meisner effect when the SC goes critical and levitates right up into the air? Thoughts? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 13:49:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA02323; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:40:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re; BB Pinch Switch Cc: fstenger interlaced.net Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:39:15 +0000 Message-ID: <19970423203912.AAA29683 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"W5tvf.0.Da.mEdNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: Finally wised up and calculated the energy necessary to vaporize a copper-coated iron BB about 0.3 cm diameter with enough joules to give each of it's atoms 10 Ev energy. Comes out to 2 Kilojoules per BB. Figuring Frank Stenger's "Ashtabula Leveler" at 64 Kilojoules per shot, he should be able to do either 16 BB's before a recharge, or do a BB every second or so with make-up charge on the bank until overheating gets to be a problem. :-) Calibration Fusion runs using heavy ice BB's should prove interesting as will the lithium hydride runs. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 14:50:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA10516; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 17:28:33 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704232128.RAA01412 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <19970423171425.AAA11828 LOCALNAME> (frederick.sparber@worldnet.att.net) Subject: Re: BB Pinch Switch Resent-Message-ID: <"ZncSC2.0.Da2.iydNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > It seems that intentionally getting the "necking" and high di/dt is > what I would want as opposed to a stable low temperature pinch that > you are after, Robert. No, ionized particles in the neck are quickly acclerated out, and of course uncharged particles are never trapped. So the neck pinches off and compression stops. You need to prevent necking to keep compressing. Hmmm. Think of it this way, as the plasma pinches in, the pressure on the plasma increases linearly. But this doesn't happen smoothly. If you have a "stable" pinch, one area will pinch in an that narrower area will propagate in both directions sort of like inflating (or actually disinflating) one of those long narrow balloons. Of course the other things you have to watch out for are leakage out of the pinch and cooling by the electrode tips. If you want to try for power generating hot fusion, you probably want a pinch length in the hundreds of meters. (See laser reference.) You are depending either on a weak magnetic mirror or just inertial confinement to keep that plasma in. > Better fusion results with "controlled" chaos? :-) Controlled? Think of it more like wrestling the Midgard Serpent. You are not trying to win, just not to lose. As long as the arc is maintained, you are pinching in tighter. If you can sustain even 10 kA for a microsecond or two, then buy paraffin blocks and a neutron detector before playing with deuterium. (The initial neutrons you will see come from stripping, but no reason to eat them anyway. Actually I ended up with a foot of paraffin fronted by cinder blocks and a steel plate. I had some problem with X-rays and did generate a few neutrons, but I was most worried about capacitors blowing.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 15:00:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA21636; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:49:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:49:23 -0700 Message-Id: <199704232149.RAA18921 relay1.smtp.psi.net> From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Re: BlackLight Power Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 18:44:02 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DGdfS3.0.vH5.YFeNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Summary information on many replications by different organizations of the K2CO3 - Ni - H2O cells with high Pout/Pin ratios and many tests supporting the Mills theory have been added to the BlackLight Power web site since I checked last a couple of weeks ago. ( see - whats new / experiments & validations ) Mills seems to require an "energy hole" of 27.21 eV for resonant coupling / catalysis of "hydrino" formation. This matches my old CRC Hdbk. value of 27.62 eV for Ar1+ to Ar2+ fairly well as used in some of his examples, but I don't understand the "K+/K+ electrocatalytic couple" used to explain the K2CO3 cells. The ionization energy from CRC for: K to K1+ 4.339 eV K1+ to K2+ 31.81 eV Can someone explain this for me? George Holz Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 15:33:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA00057; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:24:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:24:45 -0700 Sender: mathias stacken.kth.se Message-ID: <335E8C22.37191033 stacken.kth.se> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:24:34 +0200 From: Mathias Bage Organization: Netcraft Scandinavia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.18 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BlackLight Power Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yow: I just had my entire INTESTINAL TRACT coated with TEFLON! Resent-Message-ID: <"8xCvY.0.j.imeNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Has anyone considered the environmental consequences of hydrinos? Are they inert forever? What if all hydrogen on the planet eventually turns into hydrinos? What if hydrinos would behave the way they speculate on "strange matter"! If so, it'll mean * * * B I G T R O U B L E * * * to say the least..... [I may be missing something here - haven't read everything on www.blacklightpower.com yet] /Mathias From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 16:00:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA05585; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:46:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:46:03 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <335E9120.5C50 math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:45:52 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BdwXv2.0.6N1.f4fNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > > a positive result should disprove > the principle of entropy. > This conclusion does not follow from your prior thought experiment. After all, no one ever said that heat cannot be used to perform useful work. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 16:04:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA09377; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:57:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:57:57 -0700 From: travis vgernet.net Message-ID: <335E9437.7C06 vgernet.net> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 18:59:03 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BlackLight Power References: <199704232149.RAA18921 relay1.smtp.psi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZP3hh2.0.II2.qFfNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: George Holz wrote: > > Summary information on many replications by different organizations > of the K2CO3 - Ni - H2O cells with high Pout/Pin ratios and many > tests supporting the Mills theory have been added to the BlackLight Power > web site since I checked last a couple of weeks ago. > ( see - whats new / experiments & validations ) > Mills seems to require an "energy hole" of 27.21 eV for resonant > coupling / catalysis of "hydrino" formation. This matches my old CRC > Hdbk. > value of 27.62 eV for Ar1+ to Ar2+ fairly well as used in some of his > examples, but I don't understand the "K+/K+ electrocatalytic couple" used > to > explain the K2CO3 cells. > The ionization energy from CRC for: > K to K1+ 4.339 eV > K1+ to K2+ 31.81 eV > Can someone explain this for me? > > George Holz > Varitronics Systems The difference of the 2 is near the magic 27.2 This requires a 3 body collision and is thus less favorable than Ar+ or Rb+. Evidently the Hydrino itself can act as a sink at 27.2 and thus if you can get a "critical concentration" it seems that the reactions could go very fast. Fascinating stuff. I wish I were back in school, beats the heck out of the Physics I was taught, this stuff actually makes sense. I recomend the book. ---- Travis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 16:27:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA15271; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:19:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:19:54 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:21:51 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"VElPF.0.Qk3.OafNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace H. wrote: >In a uniform magnetic field coming out of the page, thermal positive ions >will tend to rotate in a clockwise circle, negative ions will tend to >rotate in a conter-clockwise circle. If the magnetic field is >non-uniform, a gradient stronger at the bottom of the page than at the top, >then drift occurs. Positive ions will tend to drift (creep) to the right, >negative ions to the left. [snip] >The above implies that in the proposed magnetic gradient, the energy from >ambient heat can be used to form an electrostatic gradient, negative to the >left and positive to the right. With a completed circuit, the >configuration takes thermal energy from ions in the magnetic field gradient >and converts it to current. You have ignored some complications that enter when plasmas contact electrodes (or any solid surface, for that matter. However, if we continue with your idea anyway, then you would indeed have a current to the right. In order to extract power, you need current TIMES A VOLTAGE, ie. an electric field from right to left. This gives you an ExB drift of both electrons and ions equally (ie. the whole plasma) toward the top of the page. The plasma drifts from high to low magnetic field strength, and the plasma expands as it moves upwards. Therefore, you extracted energy from the plasma's initial store of internal energy. It's a first law conversion, not a second law paradox. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 17:20:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA06671; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:56:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:58:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re; BB Pinch Switch Resent-Message-ID: <"RvOYt3.0.9e1.67gNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > >Finally wised up and calculated the energy necessary to vaporize >a copper-coated iron BB about 0.3 cm diameter with enough joules >to give each of it's atoms 10 Ev energy. Comes out to 2 Kilojoules >per BB. Actually, a few times more. You have to heat BOTH electrons and ions to 10 eV, and each ion or electron takes (3/2)kT of energy. There is also ionization energy. I get 5 or 6 kJ per BB. This is just the necessary energy. There will also be lots of power being radiated from a 10 eV Fe+Cu plasma. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 18:20:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA15708; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 17:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 17:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <335EAE2E.295C worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:49:53 -1000 From: Rick Monteverde Reply-To: monteverde worldnet.att.net Organization: Green Mountain Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; U; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BlackLight Power References: <335E8C22.37191033 stacken.kth.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TEDAf3.0.Ir3.BwgNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mathias Bage wrote: > Has anyone considered the environmental consequences of hydrinos? > > Are they inert forever? What if all hydrogen on the planet > eventually turns into hydrinos? [snip] Me to, I've wondered about this and also the potential for a poor man's nuke. Also, I was wondering where all the hydrino stars are. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 18:51:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA21637; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 18:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 18:44:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Re; BB Pinch Switch Cc: fstenger interlaced.net Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:42:43 +0000 Message-ID: <19970424014241.AAA24844 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"oTl5D1.0.xH5.fhhNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:58 AM 4/24/97 +0000, Michael J. Schaffer wrote: >Frederick Sparber wrote: >> >>Finally wised up and calculated the energy necessary to vaporize >>a copper-coated iron BB about 0.3 cm diameter with enough joules >>to give each of it's atoms 10 Ev energy. Comes out to 2 Kilojoules >>per BB. > >Actually, a few times more. You have to heat BOTH electrons and ions to 10 >eV, and each ion or electron takes (3/2)kT of energy. There is also >ionization energy. I get 5 or 6 kJ per BB. This is just the necessary >energy. There will also be lots of power being radiated from a 10 eV Fe+Cu >plasma. > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > > Thanks Mike. I'll pass that on to Frank Stenger so that he can keep his 64 Kilojoule capacitor bank fired up to full capacity for each BB. If the BB's were LiH,you would need 2.73E16 of the 8.72E20 LiH molecules for H + Li-7 = 2 He-4 + 17.6 MeV reactions to get breakeven with the 64 Kilojoules input. That's about one in 38,000.Take some more research? With a maximum potential yield of 2.5E9 joule per BB, do you think that one could ever get wall-socket return? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 19:25:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA25638; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:48:31 -0500 (GMT) From: Carlos Henry Castano To: grupo de discusion Subject: Re: Cost of energy - waste heat problem (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2BpWY3.0.QG6.JCiNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:44:27 -0500 (GMT) From: Carlos Ignacio Sanchez Saenz Subject: Re: Cost of energy - waste heat problem (fwd) Whith how efficiency would heat to be "pumped" to levels temperature high? If is higher that a Carnot engine, it can not by a ciclic device, in according to second law. How would to be? ************************************************************************** Carlos I. Sanchez S. Universidad Nacional de Colombia Departamento de Procesos Quimicos Facultad de Minas Robledo Fax: (57) (94) 2341002 Medellin, Colombia E-mail: cisanche perseus.unalmed.edu.co **************************************************************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 20:21:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA19286; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:03:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:03:00 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <335EBBF6.1431 math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 18:48:38 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BlackLight Power References: <335E8C22.37191033 stacken.kth.se> <335EAE2E.295C@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"88G3v.0.Ph4.AriNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Mathias Bage wrote: > > > What if all hydrogen on the planet > > eventually turns into hydrinos? > > [snip] > > Me to, I've wondered about this and also the potential > for a poor man's nuke. > Poor mans nuke = fuel air explosive. No need for new physics. The real question is whether stimulated spontaneous emission could trigger a chain reaction of the hydrogen -> hydrino transition, consuming all the worlds hydrogen. Perhaps the "hydrino bomb" will turn out to be the Doomsday Device. Anyone for a nice refreshing glass of ice-nine hydrino_2 O ? :-) -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 20:24:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA18529; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:01:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:01:37 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:16:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199704240216.TAA00331 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Trojan Horse Virus Warning Resent-Message-ID: <"X5dvm1.0.ZU4.tpiNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I just got this in and don't know if it is real, but thought I would post it on the group anyway just in case. Ross **** E-MAIL VIRUS WARNING **** >> >> This information was received this morning from IBM, >> please share it with anyone that might have access >> to the Internet. >> >> If anyone receives mail entitled: PENPAL GREETINGS >> please delete it WITHOUT reading it. This is a warning >> for all Internet users - there is a dangerous virus >> propagating across the Internet through an e-mail >> message entitled PENPAL GREETINGS. >> >> DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY MESSAGE ENTITLED PENPAL GREETINGS. >> This messages appears to be a friendly letter asking you if >> you are interested in a penpal, but by the time you read >> this letter, it is too late. The Trojan Horse virus will >> have already infected the boot sector of your hard drive, >> and destroy all data present. It is a self-replicating >> virus, and once the message is read, it will AUTOMATICALLY >> forward itself to anyone who's e-mail address is present >> in YOUR mailbox. This virus will DESTROY your hard drive, >> and holds the potential to DESTROY the hard drive of >> anyone who's mail is in your inbox, etc. etc. >> >> Please pass this message along to everyone you know so >> this virus can be stopped. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 20:59:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA30061; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:47:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:47:02 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: BB Pinch Switch Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 03:25:42 +0000 Message-ID: <19970424032540.AAA20748 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"5EnMu1.0.PK7.jUjNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 23 Apr 97 21:28:33 +0000 Robert I. Eachus wrote: >If you want to try for power generating hot fusion, you probably >want a pinch length in the hundreds of meters. (see laser reference.) Your item on the unfortunate pole-sitter-pistoleer,poses the possibility of using a stream of molten lithium deuteride injected from the top of a vertical 300 meter tube evacuated to about a millitorr or so. :-) Know of any abandoned water,oil,or gas wells, where this could be tried? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 21:06:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA31079; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:48:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:48:43 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:32:53 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Solar Cells. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"tqHva1.0.La7.GWjNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts! Some of you may remember that last year I posted some information about Solar Photovoltaic cells. The gist of the post was that a collaboration between the Photovoltaics Special Research Center at the University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia and Pacific Solar exists with the aim of reducing the cost of Solar Cells by a factor of 5 - 10 in a 5 year research and development program. Pacific Solar is a wholly owned subsidary of Pacific Power the electric Utility of the Australian State of New South Wales (NSW). They have an installed capacity of about 12 Gigawatts. The collaboration has completed the first 2 years of the project and state "they are ahead of schedule". The technology they're developing is thin silicon deposited on glass. Unfortunately details are scetchy because of confidentiality clauses, but my contacts say they have advanced the field "incredibly" well. A parallel development are the roof tile project, which employs a non-imaging concentrator to reduce the amount of silicon needed for a working cell. The device could also be used for a roofing material in one's house. They've acheived 4:1 improvement in light concentration in a device with an overall efficiency of 19%. At the same time they've developed an invertor that allows locally generated power (within a property) to be sent out to the grid. The electric distribution utilities in oz will then give a credit for all energy generated and sent out to the grid. There is already a market in oz from people who are willing to pay extra for electricity generated within their own property. Systems which cost about $10,000 give you essentially free electricity, once you take your credits. So they appear to be priming the market for consumer supported electricty generation. If they can deliver a system that gives free electricty for $2000, which appears feasible on current projections, the system would pay for itself in less than 4 years. At that point the market would explode. I'll keep you informed of progress. I'll repeat what I said last year. The world doesn't need CF to achieve sustainable economic growth. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 21:12:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA04510; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <335EDC2A.7C29 math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:06:02 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Trojan Horse Virus Warning References: <199704240216.TAA00331 Au.oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mx05T1.0.N61.BnjNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ross Tessien wrote: > > I just got this in and don't know if it is real.... I do. > Ross > > **** E-MAIL VIRUS WARNING **** > >> > >> > >> DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY MESSAGE ENTITLED PENPAL GREETINGS. To Ross and others: please, folks, try and apply just one tiny bit of common sense to these things. But perhaps a lack of common sense some sort of pre-req for posting off-topic stuff to vortex...(esp. when it comes from one of those who has complained about such). For example, the warning issued says: > >> once the message is read, it will AUTOMATICALLY > >> forward itself to anyone who's e-mail address is present > >> in YOUR mailbox. > >> Please pass this message along to everyone you know so > >> this virus can be stopped. Uh, lets think for one moment: wouldn't a virus that spreads by auto-emailing itself to all addresses it encounters necessarily spread faster than the above warning, which is being manually emailed? If such a virus really existed, it would achieve complete penetration in a couple days at most---six degrees of separation and all that. Let me spell it out for those who are naive: THE ABOVE MESSAGE WAS THE VIRUS! YOU JUST SPREAD IT! If a real virus is out there, there are official groups in channels in place to deal with it (CERT). They don't need your "help". -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 21:46:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA13031; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:43:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:43:38 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:43:33 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Hoax viruses In-Reply-To: <199704240216.TAA00331 Au.oro.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ysU7T2.0.TB3.vJkNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Ross Tessien wrote: > I just got this in and don't know if it is real, but thought I would post it > on the group anyway just in case. Virus hoaxes spread by convincing people that viruses are so dangerous that they must take personal responsibility to "warn all their friends". Nearly ALL internet hoaxes spread this way. So, if ANY message tries in the most minimal way to imply that just maybe you should send it on to others, to warn them... ALL YOUR ALARM BELLS SHOULD GO OFF!!!!!! MEME ALERT! MEME ALERT! DANGER OF MENTAL INFECTION! STOP READING IMMEDIATELY AND DESTROY MESSAGE! ...or thoughts to that effect. Individuals should not take it upon themselves to spread warnings. If you just HAVE to warn someone, do it by sending the URL of the CIAC virus watch. Here's their subpage on fake viruses. Linkname: CIAC Internet Hoaxes Filename: http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 21:50:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA13234; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:45:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:45:30 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:50:10 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"_pYS72.0.iE3.fLkNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >> >> a positive result should disprove >> the principle of entropy. >> > >This conclusion does not follow from your prior >thought experiment. After all, no one ever said that >heat cannot be used to perform useful work. > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry OK, I'll spell it out more thoroughly. You have a system consisting of two seperate and adjacent compartments at the same temperature. Compartment A contins the device except for the resistive current loop (and any device it may power) which connects the right to the left side of compartment A. Some of the heat of compartment A is converted to electrical energy which is transferred to compartment B, the resistive circuit, where it does useful work and then heats compartment B. Compartment A is spontaneously cooled while compartment B is heated, all with no active components. The waste heat from compartment B is allowed to flow back to A to maintiain it's heat so it can continue to generate power. One embodyment might be where compartment A consists of a superconductive square with magnets on top and bottom placed on an angle to create an increasing field gradient as you approach the bottom of the page. Compartment B consists of the conductor connecting the right side of the SC to the left. Another test might consist of a superconductive ring with a magnet placed over the edge of the ring. If varying the tilt of the magnet, while maintaining the the same field direction, i.e. simply changing the gradient from positive to negative, then the effect is manifest by current around the ring changing direction. (Can this happen? I've never heard of it if so.) The problem is the smallness of the gradient that should occur. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 21:52:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA10694; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:50:20 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Re; BB Pinch Switch Resent-Message-ID: <"fjpc71.0._c2.XMkNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] > >Actually, a few times more. You have to heat BOTH electrons and ions to 10 >eV, and each ion or electron takes (3/2)kT of energy. There is also >ionization energy. I get 5 or 6 kJ per BB. This is just the necessary >energy. There will also be lots of power being radiated from a 10 eV Fe+Cu >plasma. > >Michael J. Schaffer Instead of using a BB why not detonate a small open but restricted flow cylinder (E.G. like a carbide cannon) of H2 (or methane etc.) and O2 (or air) and use the conductivity of the hot jet as a trigger? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 21:59:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA14919; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:52:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:52:46 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:52:41 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Warning, LSHISM Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"igCHh2.0.1f3.TSkNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From the CIAC hoax virus page I pulled this response to the old "Good Times" hoax virus. They also mention "penpal greetings" and others. Be warned, LSHISM = Laughed so hard I... um... .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page U.S. Department of Energy Computer Incident Advisory Capability Internet Hoaxes Hoaxes described on this page: PKZ300, Irina, Good Times, Good Times Spoof, Deeyenda, Ghost , PENPAL GREETINGS!, Make Money Fast, NaughtyRobot Last modified: Wednesday, 05-Feb-97 15:51:00 PST You are the 143173rd visitor to this page. Good Times Spoof The following spoof of the good times hoax is too well done not to include here. The author of this spoof is unknown, but we will gladly give him credit if he will only contact us. READ THIS: Goodtimes will re-write your hard drive. Not only that, but it will scramble any disks that are even close to your computer. It will recalibrate your refrigerator's coolness setting so all your ice cream goes melty. It will demagnetize the strips on all your credit cards, screw up the tracking on your television and use subspace field harmonics to scratch any CD's you try to play. It will give your ex-girlfriend your new phone number. It will mix Kool-aid into your fishtank. It will drink all your beer and leave its socks out on the coffee table when there's company coming over. It will put a dead kitten in the back pocket of your good suit pants and hide your car keys when you are late for work. Goodtimes will make you fall in love with a penguin. It will give you nightmares about circus midgets. It will pour sugar in your gas tank and shave off both your eyebrows while dating your girlfriend behind your back and billing the dinner and hotel room to your Discover card. It will seduce your grandmother. It does not matter if she is dead, such is the power of Goodtimes, it reaches out beyond the grave to sully those things we hold most dear. It moves your car randomly around parking lots so you can't find it. It will kick your dog. It will leave libidinous messages on your boss's voice mail in your voice! It is insidious and subtle. It is dangerous and terrifying to behold. It is also a rather interesting shade of mauve. Goodtimes will give you Dutch Elm disease. It will leave the toilet seat up. It will make a batch of Methanphedime in your bathtub and then leave bacon cooking on the stove while it goes out to chase gradeschoolers with your new snowblower. Listen to me. Goodtimes does not exist. It cannot do anything to you. But I can. I am sending this message to everyone in the world. Tell your friends, tell your family. If anyone else sends me another E-mail about this fake Goodtimes Virus, I will turn hating them into a religion. I will do things to them that would make a horsehead in your bed look like Easter Sunday brunch. So there, take that Good Times. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 21:59:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA13282; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:45:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:45:35 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:50:16 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"umoI_3.0.OF3.lLkNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:21 PM 4/23/97, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >Horace H. wrote: > >>In a uniform magnetic field coming out of the page, thermal positive ions >>will tend to rotate in a clockwise circle, negative ions will tend to >>rotate in a conter-clockwise circle. If the magnetic field is >>non-uniform, a gradient stronger at the bottom of the page than at the top, >>then drift occurs. Positive ions will tend to drift (creep) to the right, >>negative ions to the left. >[snip] >>The above implies that in the proposed magnetic gradient, the energy from >>ambient heat can be used to form an electrostatic gradient, negative to the >>left and positive to the right. With a completed circuit, the >>configuration takes thermal energy from ions in the magnetic field gradient >>and converts it to current. > > You have ignored some complications that enter when plasmas contact >electrodes (or any solid surface, for that matter. Yes. >However, if we continue >with your idea anyway, then you would indeed have a current to the right. Yes. >In order to extract power, you need current TIMES A VOLTAGE, ie. an >electric field from right to left. The accumulation of charge *is* a voltage. The magnetic field gradient is generating a positive voltage on the right side of the compartment, plasma, electrolyte, or superconductor, etc. > This gives you an ExB drift of both >electrons and ions equally (ie. the whole plasma) toward the top of the >page. Don't forget the E in your ExB is backwards and contrary to the current flow! The positive side is the right side towards which the positive ions migrate. It is the E that thwarts the migration. Keeping up the current flow is a matter of keeping the resistance of the loop low to avoid much of an E. E and the ion speeds are the only things that *limit* the current flow. The right-left drift should continue indefinitely. Assuming for a moment the electrons are the negative ions, and the positive ions are fixed in place, electrons should leave the left side of the compartment "hot", i.e. under pressure. Their energy is spent in the resistive loop, heating it, and they return on the right side cool. Yes I have ignored electrode work functions, interface potential barriers, etc., in this thought experiment. However, I have some hope that if the idea is good then an experiment could be made real because the right to left electrostatic gradient is *additive*. Thus many such cells or an arbitrarily long cell can be strung together to achieve any desired potential. The problem (miracle) then is obtaining a medium that maintains a supply of ions capable of cyclotronic drift at ambient temperatures. >The plasma drifts from high to low magnetic field strength, and the >plasma expands as it moves upwards. No. Any vertical drift is stabilized during initial operation. After that, net motion should only be right to left for positve ions or left to right for negative ions. >Therefore, you extracted energy from >the plasma's initial store of internal energy. So long as there is any heat motion in the "plasma" the cyclotronic drift ("creep" as I called it, to distinguish from the standard electron drift in conductors, etc.) will continue to move positive ions right, negative ions left. > It's a first law >conversion, not a second law paradox. No. The drift can be maintained permanently by feeding the waste heat back to the compartment. No moving parts. > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 Am I missing something? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 23 22:50:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA17072; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <335E71B4.567322 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:31:48 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex , tessien@oro.net Subject: Re:Trojan Horse Virus Warning X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6QDdP.0.fA4.CBlNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is HOAX. Notice that there is no date on it. There are many kind of letters like this circulating on the NET. It is technically impossible to activate viruses by emails. But the letter posted by Ross Tessien it self can be thought as something able to produce itselfs in the mail boxes. If you have some comments please write to me directly but not to the VORTEX. hamdix verisoft.com.tr From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 00:15:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA01936; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:10:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:10:36 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 23:15:21 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Solar Cells. Resent-Message-ID: <"265Cu1.0.5U.hTmNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:32 PM 4/24/97, Martin Sevior wrote: [snip] > >I'll keep you informed of progress. I'll repeat what I said last year. The >world doesn't need CF to achieve sustainable economic growth. > >Martin Sevior It seems true. Utility managed wind power complements solar very well also. Wind power has made good gains this year almost everywhere used but the USA. It is the worlds fastest growing energy source. See the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA) data below: Installed Wind Energy Capacity (in megawatts, MW) Country 1995 1996 1996 Cumulative Cumulative New USA 1,750 1,750* 10 Germany 1,136 1,575 439 India 556 820 264 Denmark 614 804 190 The Netherlands 259 295 36 UK 193 264 71 Spain 145 261 116 Sweden 67 105 38 China 36 57 21 Rest of World 234 274 40 Total 4,990 6,205 1,225 See AWEA's Web site at: . Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 00:17:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA01962; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:10:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:10:44 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 23:15:18 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re:Trojan Horse Virus Warning Resent-Message-ID: <"kKwa93.0.6U.hTmNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:31 AM 4/24/97, Hamdi Ucar wrote: >This is HOAX. >Notice that there is no date on it. >There are many kind of letters like this circulating on the NET. >It is technically impossible to activate viruses by emails. >hamdix verisoft.com.tr You are probably right that this is a hoax. However, it should be known that it is very possible to transmit a Mac virus by email attachment. Also you can transmit PC viruses if executables are transmitted as attachments or in compressed files or during installs of downloaded code. It is also possible to get viruses via Netscape, etc., if JAVA scripts are enabled. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 02:43:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA13567; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 02:38:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 02:38:22 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:32:37 +0200 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Eudora F1.5.1 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: jlagarde cyberaccess.fr (Jean_de_Lagarde) Subject: Re: Blacklight Power Resent-Message-ID: <"JaMju.0.vJ3.EeoNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bart Simon wrote >Just on this point, can anybody speculate on the possible connections >between Mill's theories and Jean Pierre Vigier's. Back in the days >of Bill Page's ICCF-5 group I seem to remember some discussion of >Vigier's ideas which also had to do with some notion of a "shrunken" >atom or at least a the presence of some "tight bohr orbit" in >solid state. You are right. There are somme connections between Mill's theories and Jean Pierre Vigier's. But there are three essential differences : 1 - Vigier claims to be in complete accordance with Quantum Mechanics, while Mills rebuilds a new theory of his own 2 - Mills predicts an infinity of shrunken hydrogen states, while Vigier speaks of a single one 3 - While Mills speaks about a catalyst for the reaction to occur, Vigier's assumtion is related to spins of both the proton and the electron which have to be parallel Apart from these divergent theories, Jean-Pierre Vigier's Hydrex and Mill's Hydrinos could well be the same kind of beasts Jean DeLagarde From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 05:31:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA31134; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 05:28:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 05:28:20 -0700 From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: BlackLight Power - hydrino speculation Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:04:49 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19970424121810220.AAA180 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"eZV0V3.0.Lc7.a7rNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: According to my understanding, hydrinos produced by terrestrial power plants won't be much of a problem, because a) they don't react chemically since the electrons are already at a lower energy state, b) the potential catalysis chain reaction requires a concentration of other hydrinos which you won't find in the atmosphere, and c) being a light element, it will migrate to the stratosphere and extreme dilution. In a star there is a concentration of raw hydrogen kept around by gravitation, so catalysis chain reactions can, in principle, occur. According to Mills, most stars derive their principle energy from hydrogen collapse via the BLP process. The white dwarfs, neutron stars, and others may have different processes. I surmise that the phenomenon of orbital collapse is not exclusive with hydrogen atoms, but may be found elsewhere. This would be a topic for much, much study if Mills' view gains proof by commercial application and broad acceptance. Keep checking the BLP web site. A substanial amount of material has been added, some of it details of experiments and verifications, other bring corporate charts presenting highlights in simplified form. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 06:35:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA08182; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 06:29:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 06:29:42 -0700 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are we nutz. Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:29:20 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <335f53df.52819679 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <199704231037.DAA06222 joshua.math.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <199704231037.DAA06222 joshua.math.ucla.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jv7HG3.0.m_1.51sNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 23 Apr 1997 03:37:15 -0700 (PDT), Barry Merriman wrote: >Robin van Spaandonk refers us to the Breit-Wigner formula >and his web page for illumination on how reaction >cross sections can be greatly increased. There, his thesis >is that co-moving nuclei have zero relative momentum and >thus long (infinite) DeBroglie wavelenghts in their common >co-moving reference frame. > >As I have noted before, and I think Robin has agreed, the Barry, it may be due to my incompetence, but I am not aware of ever having "agreed" to this. >above assertion is simply false. The above assertion can Please explain just what part (or all) of the above assertion is false, and demonstrate this. >be evaluated within standard physics, and it is 100% false. By 100%, do you mean all of the assertion, or all false? >Robin, I wish you would quite knowingly spreading disinfomation >about quantum mechanics. I don't see what purpose it serves. Barry, I am simply putting a hypothesis. Not knowingly spreading disinformation (I don't know that much :). > > >If you want to maintain your overall theory, the least you >could do for he sake of accuracy is say that your assertions >about DB wavelengths are technically false, but as a possible Precisely which assertions about DB wavelengths do you consider to be technically false? >formal heuristic, they suggest there may be something >interesting about comoving nuclei. If my "assertion is 100% false", then what could possibly be of interest in comoving nuclei? >That is still being >pretty charitable towards your reasoning, but at least >it doesn't blatantly contradict standard QM anymore. When you say that my assertions blatantly contradict standard QM, I presume that your implication is that experiments already carried out show the assertions to be incorrect? Surely you are not advocating that a hypothesis be discarded purely on the basis of existing theory? Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 07:48:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA20029; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:41:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:41:54 -0700 Message-ID: <335F7152.5BB9 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:42:26 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar Cells. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mhw6T3.0.qu4.n4tNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Martin Sevior wrote: > > Gnorts Vorts! > (Good stuff about solar photovoltaics) > I'll keep you informed of progress. Thanks Martin! I'll look forward to the updates. What photovoltaics and wind energy need is a world-wide power grid modeled on the concept of the internet. Much of the world could be tied together using over-the-pole routes for HTSC transmission lines. Important design point would be to make the net NON-CONTROLLABLE from any one area to avoid "power barons ". Such a world-wide net would give everyone A BIG STAKE IN WORLD PEACE, since no one likes to have their air conditioning shut down. We could even tie Horace into the grid with a feeder line branched off the main trans-Bering Strait trunk! Maybe Australia and a few other ocean-isolated spots would need autonomous systems, but I'm sure Greg Watson is up to the task! Basking in the spring sunshine, Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 08:07:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA21261; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:52:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:52:20 -0700 X-Sender: hheffner corecom.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 06:57:13 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Creepy attack on 2nd law - drawings Resent-Message-ID: <"vZR99.0.7C5.ZEtNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Earlier I wrote: >In a uniform magnetic field coming out of the page, thermal positive ions >will tend to rotate in a clockwise circle, negative ions will tend to >rotate in a conter-clockwise circle. If the magnetic field is >non-uniform, a gradient stronger at the bottom of the page than at the top, >then drift occurs. Positive ions will tend to drift (creep) to the right, >negative ions to the left. The drift is caused by the fact that the >cyclotron radius is smaller on the bottom portion of the loop. Thus >positive ions move in long arcs to the right and short arcs to the left, for >example. > Here is a drawing of a cross section of a device using two magnets, M1 and M2, where chamber X meets the above description from the viewer's perspective, and chamber Y reverses the flows, etc.: -------------------- "Top | N M1 S | of -------------------- "Bottom of page" page" --------- --------- | X | | Y | Chamber X has magnetic field "out of page" --------- --------- -------------------- | S M2 N | -------------------- 8^) <--------- Viewer X and Y might be a cross sections of two sides of a single superconductor or plasma ring. In the case of a plasma ring the plasma would have an opposing electron and ion flow, which would pinch the plasma to some degree. It would also be possible to bias a plasma torus (etc.) to create small heat driven pinch currents. For example, here is a cross section: -------------------- -------------------- | N M1 S | | S M1 N | -------------------- -------------------- --------- --------- | X | | X | --------- --------- -------------------- -------------------- | S M2 N | | N M2 S | -------------------- -------------------- A device might be made from flexible tubing containing electrolyte and magnetic strips and wrapped into a coil: -------------------- | N M1 S | -------------------- --------- --------- | X | | Y | --------- --------- -------------------- | S M2 N | -------------------- --------- --------- | Q | | R | --------- --------- -------------------- | N M1 S | -------------------- --------- --------- | X | | Y | --------- --------- -------------------- | S M2 N | -------------------- --------- --------- | Q | | R | --------- --------- ... etc. Am I totally out in left field on all this? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 08:22:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA05771; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:09:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704241002.ZM28860 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:02:58 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Mike Carrell" "BlackLight Power - hydrino speculation" (Apr 24, 7:26am) References: <19970424121810220.AAA180 default> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BlackLight Power - hydrino speculation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"Pk9JQ3.0.3Q1.JUtNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No reason to waste hydrinos once made. Build a Sirling cycle generator and close the H loop. Hydrino plant on one side, hydrino destablizer on the other. The temperature gradient between the two sides could probably be very attractive for efficient operation. Couple the device with a water tank and a blower, and you could have a simple residential power plant for electric, hot water, forced air heat, and forced air cooling. Might not be o/u or even self sustaining, but could help reduce overall demand on current resources. The key is the reformation of typical H from the hydrino and pulling the heat back in. -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 10:21:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA25552; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:06:56 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:06:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970424130620_-2103770371 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: the spin orbit force Resent-Message-ID: <"GZaAv1.0.AF6.jCvNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: How do I know the spin orbit force is a constant around any closed loop outside of the nucleus? Referring to the work of Mayer on Spin Orbit potential we find that energy level splitting within a nucleus increases directly with increasing nuclear energy level l. The spin orbit potential increases directly with increasing r within the nucleus. Potential = l*s Assuming that the spin orbit potential around any closed loop is a constant this is exactly what we would predict. As we move out at increasing orbits within the nucleus the number of nucleons that are enclosed increases. Therefore at a constant potential per nucleon the force increases with the number of nucleons enclosed. This effect produces the energy splitting that is observed with increasing l. Outside of the nucleus the number of nucleons enclosed remains a constant. The nucleus acts, in this case, like a central potential. I believe that the spin orbit potential is experienced outside of the nucleus by any closed wavefunction. A hint to what is going on my be gleaned by the study of superconducting rings. The energy imparted to such rings is proportional the the magnetic field that sent through the ring. This effect is independent to the size of the ring. For example, the ring could exceed the size of the orbit of earth and the effect would be the same. Although we don't normally believe that nuclear potentials can condense I believe this to be the case. Reasons why. 1. The semiempriical mass formula shows that like nucleons tend to couple pairwise into stable configurations. This coupling favors the production of stable elements. This coupling is a result of the spin orbit force. Cold fusion produces stable elements. The stability of the daughter nucleons points with a smoking gun to the spin orbit potential. 2. No radiation productions are produced. The only currently known way to produce nuclear reactions is to overcome the coulombic barrier. This barrier is high and requires KEV's of energy to overcome. Kev's of energy produce signatures. In cold fusion the barrier is overcome without high energy signatures. This is a strong indication that a force is at work with a longer range than the coulombic. 3. The pattern of the length of the other force indicates a trend. This is where I started and why I am digging in this area. The Missner effect excludes flux lines and the path of the magnetic interaction becomes longer. No isolated charges can exist within superconductors. The only electric fields that exist have dipole configurations. The electric field of a dipole saturates and has a short range of interaction. Finally, there is the work going on at Marshall indicating that the length of the gravitation interaction may decrease. that's it for now Frank Znidarsic  From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 10:32:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA29090 for billb@eskimo.com; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:32:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: SUKHANOV srdlan.npi.msu.su Thu Apr 24 10:30:46 1997 Received: from satty.npi.msu.su (root satty.npi.msu.su [158.250.20.194]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA28753; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from king.npi.msu.su (king.npi.msu.su [158.250.20.11]) by satty.npi.msu.su (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA28948; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:49:09 +0400 (MSD) Received: from KING/SpoolDir by king.npi.msu.su (Mercury 1.21); 24 Apr 97 20:57:01 +0300 Received: from SpoolDir by KING (Mercury 1.21); 24 Apr 97 20:48:38 +0300 From: "Valery Sukhanov" Organization: SINP MSU To: wireless rmii.com, cc840@freenet.carleton.ca, ceti@onramp.net, bssimon helix.ucsd.edu, david@ibg.uu.se, 76570.2270@compuserve.com, mwm aa.net, dacha@shentel.net, jechampion@aol.com, bockris chemvx.chem.tamu.edu, ghlin@greenoil.chem.tamu.edu, CldFusion aol.com, design73@aol.com, mica@world.std.com, dennis wazoo.com, mizuno@athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp, puthoff@aol.com, conte teseo.it, ine@padrak.com, 100276.261@compuserve.com, little eden.com, peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro, g-miley@uiuc.edu, claytor_t_n lanl.gov, kennel@nhelab.iae.or.jp, art@imaginet.fr, jdunn ctc.org, bhorst@loc100.tandem.com, xgld@aol.com, reeber aro.ncren.net, fznidarsic@aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdecker@keelynet.com, daj@lsd.tandem.com, 74750.1231 compuserve.com, ggmurray@uriacc.uri.edu, dnovak uriacc.uri.com, "lrea@5561"@uriacc.uri.edu, key@rt66.com, jmyeo juno.com, dcyeo@juno.com, sethnet@efn.org, 72507.3443 compuserve.com, core@rt66.com, rollo@artvark.com, scienceletters aaas.org, brnbx@nets.com, sarfatti@well.com, smurray hsph.harvard.edu, cmurray@uh.edu, lucille@telis.org, zumm flash.net, ross@pacificnet.net, revtec@postoffice.ptd.net, jlogajan skypoint.com, danyork@iadfw.net, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, rgeorge hooked.net, dag@lsd.tandem.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, edonrott nkn.net, 72240.1256@compuserve.com, "72507 3443"@compuserve.com, letters@scicop.org, editors@sciam.com, rmcarrell aol.com, mrandall@earthlink.com, uban@world.std.com, mhugo eprinet.epri.com, 100433.1541@compuserve.com, steckly.gary ic.gc.ca, fstenger@interlaced.net, edstrojny worldnet.att.net, schaffer@gav.gat.com, joeflynn@delphi.com, griggs mindspring.com, eachus@spectre.mitre.org, rvanspaa netspace.net.au, msevior@liszt.ph.unimelb.edu.au, russia a.net, discpub@netzone.com, robert@skylink.net, hawk@eskimo.com, hjscudde pacbell.net, hheffner@anc.ak.net, aki@ix.netcom.com, tessien oro.net, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mdudley brbbs.brbbs.com, b:rerich@itim.org.soroscj.ro, asami nhelab.iae.or.jp, mac@iae.or.jp, info@znergy.com, rmforall rt66.com, 76570.2770@compuserve.com, karim.alim@mci.com, jac ibms46.sci.fsu.edu, blue@pilot.msu.edu, catala@scils.Rutgers.EDU, science-now aaas.org, jonesse@physcl.byu.ed, britz@kemi.aau.dk, 76216.2421 compuserve.com, jlagarde@ecg.csg.mot.com, wspage@ncs.dnd.ca, jlagarde cyberaccess.fr, bsullivan@sky.net, rbrtbass@ix.netcom.com Old-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:48:28 MSK-3MSD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RCCFNT-5 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.30 Message-ID: <910882D54 king.npi.msu.su> X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: RUSSIAN ACADEMY OF SCIENCE RUSSIAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY NUCLEAR SOCIETY OF RUSSIA RUSSIAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY LOMONOSOV MOSCOW STATE UNIVERSITY RUSSIAN PEOPLE'S FRIENDSHIP UNIVERSITY MOSCOW STATE TECHNICAL UNIVERSITY (MADI) Phone: (095) 464-78-81, (095) 939-18-28 P.O.Box 169, Fax: (095) 939-29-91 "Erzion" Center, E-mail: sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su 105077 Moscow, Russia ______________________________________________________________________ Dear colleague, At present we are concerned with organizing of the Fifth Russian Conference on Cold Fusion and Nuclear Transmutation (RCCFNT-5), which is going to take place in hotel Olimpiyskiy in Dagomys near Sochi (one of the best rest-home on the shore of the Black Sea) during September 28 - October 5 period. The programme of the Conference includes the following subjects: 1. Experimental researches of Cold Fusion and Nuclear Transmutation; 2. Cold Fusion and Nuclear Transmutation theoretical models; 3. Cold Fusion applied technologies and devices. We are pleased to invite you to participate at this conference and to make a report on any subject preferred by you. Announce us the title of your report please, if it will be presented. The languages of the Conference will be Russian and English. If you want to take part in our Conference you should inform us by E-mail or fax until June 30 for we will be able to organize your meeting and providing with railway tickets. The registration fee of $1200 for participants covers: - conference proceedings; - a transportation from airport to Moscow and back; - a hotel stay in Moscow (one day before and one day after trip to Sochi); - a transportation by railway from Moscow to Sochi and back; - a hotel stay in Sochi; - the daily meal (breakfast, dinner and supper) during September 25 - October 8 period; - the registration fee. If you pay before June 30, your fee may be reduced up to $1000. In this case we inform you about our account number. We will be ready to meet you from September 25 to noon of September 26 in Moscow if you would give us the information about flight date and number. The projected date of reversed flight from Moscow is afternoon of October 7 - October 8. Sincerely, Yury N. Bazhutov Chairman of the RCCFNT-5 Organizing Committee From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 11:25:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA29521; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:15:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:15:49 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 12:10:08 -0600 (MDT) From: Jorg Ostrowski To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: H2 from permanent magnets? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Organization: Calgary Free-Net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"IP0F9.0.7D7.LDwNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Can hydrogen be made by exposing a PM to water? Who has practical experience with this and is there an appropriate web site? __________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), 3 demonstration projects in Canada built 1979, 1981, 1994, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm _____________________________________________________________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 11:34:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA07173; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 12:17:56 -0600 (MDT) From: Jorg Ostrowski To: John Steck Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: autonomous house system In-Reply-To: <9704241002.ZM28860 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Message-Id: Organization: Calgary Free-Net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"uOfMu2.0.-l1.MKwNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Further to the message of below, what is the most attractive, feasible and practical free energy system for operating and display purposes in an urban setting? We would like to build it to complement our present demo project. __________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), 3 demonstration projects in Canada built 1979, 1981, 1994, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm _____________________________________________________________ On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, John Steck wrote: > No reason to waste hydrinos once made. Build a Sirling cycle generator and > close the H loop. Hydrino plant on one side, hydrino destablizer on the other. > The temperature gradient between the two sides could probably be very > attractive for efficient operation. Couple the device with a water tank and a > blower, and you could have a simple residential power plant for electric, hot > water, forced air heat, and forced air cooling. Might not be o/u or even self > sustaining, but could help reduce overall demand on current resources. The key > is the reformation of typical H from the hydrino and pulling the heat back in. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 12:09:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA06028; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:57:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:57:13 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970424145653_-2070085563 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: symmetries Resent-Message-ID: <"a1eRa2.0.5U1.8qwNp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As an electrical engineer I often worked with Maxwell's equations. The formulation of the electric-magnetic symmetry is quite familiar to me. A changing magnetic field produces a electric field and vice versa. At low temperatures in electron condensations and superconductors the electric field as well as the magnetic field both have dipole formulations. ........................................................... As a rather off the wall strange agent I applied what I know about symmetry to the gravitational field. I found that a gravitational symmetry exists. It has nothing to do with the electromagnetic symmetry. The gravitational symmetry revolves around force (dp/dt) and gravity. gravity = G(dp/dt)/(ccr) I've also found that the gravitational field tends to form dipoles within electron condensations. The rotation of these gravitational dipoles induces the gravitomagnetic field reported at Tempere. I have already derived the formulations for the electromagnetic and gravitational symmetries, using Maxwell's equations, on my book on a disk, chapeter I. Download from my home page. ................................................ Now like a brick on the head I've seen the nuclear symmetry. It revolves around the strong nuclear force and the spin orbit force. The constants that describe it are different, however, by it has the same formulation as the electro-magnetic and gravitational-force symmetries. I already know a lot about it and can begin to design machines to harness it. I also intend to derive its formulation employing the same techniques that I used for the electromagnetic and the gravitational symmetries. After I'm done I'll compute statistical cross sections. ................................................ This is so simple why has no one else ever done it. Frank Z Frank Znidarsic fznidarsic aol.com 481 Boyer St. http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html Johnstown, Pa. 15906 Automatic links: Home_Page Send_E-mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 13:48:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA26903; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:36:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:37:33 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"WbbqZ3.0.Ha6.zGyNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace H. wrote: >> >>>In a uniform magnetic field coming out of the page, thermal positive ions >>>will tend to rotate in a clockwise circle, negative ions will tend to >>>rotate in a conter-clockwise circle. If the magnetic field is >>>non-uniform, a gradient stronger at the bottom of the page than at the top, >>>then drift occurs. Positive ions will tend to drift (creep) to the right, >>>negative ions to the left. >>[snip] >>>The above implies that in the proposed magnetic gradient, the energy from >>>ambient heat can be used to form an electrostatic gradient, negative to the >>>left and positive to the right. With a completed circuit, the >>>configuration takes thermal energy from ions in the magnetic field gradient >>>and converts it to current. >> >> You have ignored some complications that enter when plasmas contact >>electrodes (or any solid surface, for that matter. > >Yes. > > >>However, if we continue >>with your idea anyway, then you would indeed have a current to the right. > >Yes. > >>In order to extract power, you need current TIMES A VOLTAGE, ie. an >>electric field from right to left. > >The accumulation of charge *is* a voltage. The magnetic field gradient is >generating a positive voltage on the right side of the compartment, plasma, >electrolyte, or superconductor, etc. > > >> This gives you an ExB drift of both >>electrons and ions equally (ie. the whole plasma) toward the top of the >>page. > >Don't forget the E in your ExB is backwards and contrary to the current >flow! The positive side is the right side towards which the positive ions >migrate. It is the E that thwarts the migration. Keeping up the current >flow is a matter of keeping the resistance of the loop low to avoid much of >an E. E and the ion speeds are the only things that *limit* the current >flow. The right-left drift should continue indefinitely. Positive charge accumulates at the right hand boundary, negative charge at the left. This makes an electric field through external load circuit that drives the plasma's left-to right current through the load. The same charges make an E that points right-to-left in the plasma. If you lower load resistance, then the power to the load goes down (the plasma current doesn't go up, if you keep the plasma pressure constant). The right-left E in the plasma opposes the plasma current (as it does in all electric generators that deliver power to an external load) and is also part of the chain of mechanisms by which the plasma expands to do the requisite work. >.... The problem (miracle) then is obtaining a medium that maintains >a supply of ions capable of cyclotronic drift at ambient temperatures. The 'miracle' is (a) source of gas to make into plasma, and (b) power to make and heat the plasma. > >>The plasma drifts from high to low magnetic field strength, and the >>plasma expands as it moves upwards. > >No. Any vertical drift is stabilized during initial operation. After that, >net motion should only be right to left for positve ions or left to right >for negative ions. You are wrong on this one, Horace. The plasma drift due to Electric field I have outlined sketchily is very well known in plasma physics. It continues until you run out of plasma. > >>Therefore, you extracted energy from >>the plasma's initial store of internal energy. > > >So long as there is any heat motion in the "plasma" the cyclotronic drift >("creep" as I called it, to distinguish from the standard electron drift in >conductors, etc.) The official phrase for your 'cyclotronic creep' is 'grad B drift", ie. a drift due to a magnetic field gradient. Many kinds of drifts are spoken of commonly in physics. [snip, and to another Heffner post] >or plasma ring. In the case of a plasma ring the plasma would have an >opposing electron and ion flow, which would pinch the plasma to some >degree. It would also be possible to bias a plasma torus (etc.) to create >small heat driven pinch currents. In a torus whose only magnetic field is one in the toroidal direction, the magnetic field is stronger near the major (central) axis and weaker farther away from it. Thus, there is a gradient of B. The grad B drift drives plasma ions and electrons to opposite poles of the torus. (The equator is in the plane of symmetry, the poles are the two large circles on teh toroidal surface farthest from the equator.) The resulting charge accumulation generates an electric field from one torus pole to the other, back through the plasma. The resulting ExB drift is always outward, away from the major axis. Plasma loss by this mechanism is slower than free, unconstrained expansion, but it is much too fast to do much practical with it. This is the fundamental reason why toroidal magnetic plasma confinement devices require additional (poloidal) magnetic field components. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 14:06:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA28611; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:49:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:50:42 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re; BB Pinch Switch Resent-Message-ID: <"Mp_ha.0.u-6.9TyNp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > If the BB's were LiH,you would need 2.73E16 of the > 8.72E20 LiH molecules for H + Li-7 = 2 He-4 + 17.6 MeV > reactions to get breakeven with the 64 Kilojoules input. > That's about one in 38,000.Take some more research? > With a maximum potential yield of 2.5E9 joule per BB, > do you think that one could ever get wall-socket return? No. The reason is that the reaction rate of H + Li7 is so incredibly low at 10 eV that you won't get anything measureable. The second reason is pressure imbalance. Fred, you should calculate the pressure of a 10 eV plasma at solid density. It is close to a Megabar. Your pinch is not that good. Most of the plasma will expand and escape long before you get it all ionized. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 16:21:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA22235; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:11:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:11:59 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:11:29 PST8PDT Subject: Re: Creepy attack on 2nd law Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <3343FB5EC5 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"TaCpS1.0.IR5.-Y-Np" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts Horace, Your idea for seperating ions in a magnetic field at first sounded great to me, but I'm afraid conservation of energy works here too. I'll simplify the idea by saying you fire a beam of ions into a magnetic field gradient such that positively charged ions migrate to the right and negatively charged ions migrate to the left. OK. Assume now that the ions leave the magnetic gradient in the same direction that they entered, only now we have charge seperation. One is tempted to think that their velocity out is the same as velocity in, but this is not the case. During the process of seperating the charges, velocity decreased as work had to be performed to seperate the charges, because the charges "don't want" to be seperated. So the energy you gain coming out of the field by having charge seperation is equal to the energy you lose due to reduced velocity. I'm not sure why "thermal" ions were mentioned, but simply changing the temperature of the system probably does not give you "free energy." Great thinking though. You are an amazingly rich source of ideas. Regards, JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 16:21:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA22070; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:11:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:11:45 -0700 From: travis vgernet.net Message-ID: <335FE8F0.39A8 vgernet.net> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:12:48 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BlackLight Power - hydrino speculation References: <19970424121810220.AAA180 default> <9704241002.ZM28860@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rFsBF2.0.mO5.lY-Np" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: > > No reason to waste hydrinos once made. Build a Sirling cycle generator and > close the H loop. Hydrino plant on one side, hydrino destablizer on the other. > The temperature gradient between the two sides could probably be very > attractive for efficient operation. Couple the device with a water tank and a > blower, and you could have a simple residential power plant for electric, hot > water, forced air heat, and forced air cooling. Might not be o/u or even self > sustaining, but could help reduce overall demand on current resources. The key > is the reformation of typical H from the hydrino and pulling the heat back in. > > -- > John E. Steck > Motorola Inc. Haven't seen much on how to "unshrink" the hydrino. Have you? Travis Whitehead From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 17:03:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA25305; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:56:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: BlackLight Power - hydrino speculation Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 23:55:04 +0000 Message-ID: <19970424235502.AAA11685 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"rYEZL.0.HB6.OC_Np" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >According to Mills, most stars derive their principle energy from hydrogen >collapse via the BLP process. The white dwarfs, neutron stars, and others >may have different processes. > I might guess that he also explains the "missing neutrino" problem by avoiding solar nuclear fusion. In a reference to a paper published in Nature in 1976 (vol 259, p. 89), "Observations of Solar Pulsations," another conventionally unexplained feature of helioseismology has to do with global oscillations. According to these observations and theoretical calculations for the spectrum of global oscillations, the sun's oscillations match almost perfectly with those calculated for a young homogeneous star, i.e. no large central core. These observations were confirmed by other teams of astronomers. "The British astromoners J. Chjristenson-Dalsgaard and D.O. Gough commented that in order to account for the 2 hour 40 minutes obeservations it is 'evident that a very drastic change in the solar model would be necessary' and 'it is unlikely that any such model can be found.'" [Nature (vol 259, p.90, 1976. "Toward a heliological inverse problem.] The maximum fundamental radial oscillation mode has a period of about 1 hour for the standard model of the sun (verses the 2 hour, 40 minute observations). Oscillations of greater than an hour would result in disruption of the theoretically existing core. [Nicolson, _The Sun_, 1982, published by Michael Beazley in assoc. with the Royal Astronomical Society] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 17:23:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA04236; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:18:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:18:18 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:18:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704250018.UAA05225 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <19970424032540.AAA20748 LOCALNAME> (frederick.sparber@worldnet.att.net) Subject: Re: BB Pinch Switch Resent-Message-ID: <"LUoG-.0.621.9X_Np" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber (frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net): > Your item on the unfortunate pole-sitter-pistoleer,poses the possibility > of using a stream of molten lithium deuteride injected from the top of a > vertical 300 meter tube evacuated to about a millitorr or so. :-) I hadn't thought of that, and got a good chuckle from the image. However, you don't want that much mass in the pinch. Even your notational LiD BB is probably too much. That's why the laser. Use RF or some such to induce ~1% ionization down your evacuated tube, then use the laser to make a much richer trail down the center. The technique I have used is a "double bump." The first pulse gives you a not very good arc, but creates the ions, then the second current pulse creates the real pinch. (About 90% of the the energy is in the second pulse.) (I'll be really bemused if the result of the cold fusion hoorah is to restart work on straight pinch machines.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 17:42:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA07395; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:37:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:37:30 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:37:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704250037.UAA05251 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (hheffner@corecom.net) Subject: Re: Re; BB Pinch Switch Resent-Message-ID: <"YbwZy2.0.Tp1.9p_Np" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner (hheffner corecom.net) said: > Instead of using a BB why not detonate a small open but restricted > flow cylinder (E.G. like a carbide cannon) of H2 (or methane etc.) > and O2 (or air) and use the conductivity of the hot jet as a > trigger? Good idea, but take it one step further--I have. Go with pure gas, and a side chamber. (Remember that hole in the electrode tip? ;-) If you create a triggering arc inside the electrode, you can shoot a plasma jet out of one or both electrodes. I could do the easy flash, bang of a capacitor across the electrodes, but I never got all the timing together for a system with enough inductance. I figured I'd have to go to a three stage system. Use a spark to vaporize a small charge. Let this short across a capacitor to create an energetic plasma jet and have a high inductence current ready at just the right time. The other trick I've always wanted to try was to have a 10 kV deuteron beam (say 10 ma) through a ~20 torr tube. Now use the particle beam as the inital path for a current pulse. The particle beam should get the pinch started straight, and when it does pinch down you have high density and more of the energy is in particles not in electrons. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 18:32:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA17966; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:28:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:28:13 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: BB Pinch Switch Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:27:32 +0000 Message-ID: <19970425012730.AAA8058 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"ozCOR3.0.YO4.hY0Op" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:18 AM 4/25/97 +0000, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > However, you don't want that much mass in the pinch. Even your >notational LiD BB is probably too much. That's why the laser. Use RF >or some such to induce ~1% ionization down your evacuated tube, then >use the laser to make a much richer trail down the center. The >technique I have used is a "double bump." The first pulse gives you a >not very good arc, but creates the ions, then the second current pulse >creates the real pinch. (About 90% of the the energy is in the second >pulse.) The thunderstorm researchers at Langmuir Lab, about 50 miles southwest of me use "primacord" attached to rockets or balloons to get a "pregnant" cloud to discharge. I have seen a few of these from my house starting in July when our "monsoon" season starts and the lab gets busy. The PETN,(C5H8N4O12) in the primacord has a detonation velocity of 7,600 meters/second. I would think that a vertical strand of this doped with excess deuterium etc., would do rather well, in a "well". :-) > > (I'll be really bemused if the result of the cold fusion hoorah is >to restart work on straight pinch machines.) Amazing what a bit of stimulus will do for creativity. :-) > Regards, Frederick > Robert I. Eachus > >with Standard_Disclaimer; >use Standard_Disclaimer; >function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 19:58:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA06303; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:27:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:27:18 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:25:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704250225.VAA09689 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: yr latest idea Resent-Message-ID: <"Wl2mn1.0.bW1.YP1Op" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I started to comment several times on yr latest idea but chickened out because I'm reluctant to get burned again by Dr. S. That's a shame...I used to just let anything hang out there on Vortex. Anyway, what I wanted to say is this: Since the only tools we have at our disposal for analyzing such an idea are the standard laws of physics and thermodynamics, any such analysis is destined to show that energy will be conserved in the system and the laws of thermodynamics will not be violated. It is totally impossible to come up with any other result, provided you apply the laws correctly. That last caveat is where most folks, like Greg Watson, go astray. Now I'm not saying that you shouldn't propose such ideas...just that they cannot be _shown_ to be o-u by any proper analysis. The only thing you can hope to do is pick a few ideas like that and try them out experimentally. If the results come out like you hope, then voila!...you have discovered "new physics". Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 20:22:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA14077; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:16:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:16:47 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:47:02 -0400 (EDT) From: lewis edward To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BlackLight Power - hydrino speculation In-Reply-To: <19970424235502.AAA11685 LOCALNAME> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"EDBi03.0.eR3.N82Op" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall's last message about the sun was interesting. Though I don't know what the evidence described by the scientists he wrote about means, I've been describing astrophysicaal phenomena such as stars as ball-lightning like plasmoids. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 20:29:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA15866; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:24:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:24:21 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:27:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704250227.VAA09943 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: yr latest idea Resent-Message-ID: <"Jyc2_3.0.8t3.YF2Op" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ha! serves me right for trying to be secretive. That semi-cryptic message was intended for Horace and was regarding his latest idea about ion drift in magnetic fields, etc. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 21:19:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA01994; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:17:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:17:00 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Trojan Horse Virus Warning To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:41:21 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <335EDC2A.7C29 math.ucla.edu> from "Barry Merriman" at Apr 23, 97 09:06:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"grqZj2.0.KU.t03Op" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: > THE ABOVE MESSAGE WAS THE VIRUS! YOU JUST SPREAD IT! And, in fact, it is merely the hoax "Good Times" virus with the words "Good Times" replaced by "Penpals." Sigh. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 21:55:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA17713; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:53:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:53:09 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970425005258_-2002969615 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BlackLight Power - hydrino speculation Resent-Message-ID: <"oQpt11.0.hK4.qY3Op" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 97-04-24 21:53:00 EDT, you write: << Haven't seen much on how to "unshrink" the hydrino. Have you? Travis Whitehead >> It seems to me that you would have to input all the energy that was extracted by the catalasis of the H atom. Regards, vince las vegas nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 01:56:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA32251; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:53:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:53:10 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:57:59 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: H2 from permanent magnets? Resent-Message-ID: <"sKml2.0.rt7.r37Op" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:10 PM 4/24/97, Jorg Ostrowski wrote: >Can hydrogen be made by exposing a PM to water? Who has practical >experience with this and is there an appropriate web site? [snip] Funny you should mention that. I just suggested just such a mechanism - provided water (or a water based electrolyte) exhibits sufficient "creep" or "grad B drift". If so, then a long enough device would provide the potential to do electrolysis, without moving parts or supplied energy. Unfortunately, the ions in an electrolyte are so packed together that I don't think such an effect is even measureable. Sorry. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 01:56:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA31919; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:47:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:47:25 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:52:08 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"2ErFT1.0.ao7.S-6Op" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:37 PM 4/24/97, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: [snip] - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >Positive charge accumulates at the right hand boundary, negative charge at >the left. Yes. That's my fundamental assertion. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >This makes an electric field through external load circuit that >drives the plasma's left-to right current through the load. Yes. Left and right handedness is not defined in the load, but it is assumed there is a so-far-invisble path through compartment B that connects the right side of the "plasma" compartment A to the left side of compartment A. I assume you mean by "left-to-right current through the load" the electron flow from the left side of compartment A through the load, and back in through the right side of compartment A. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >The same >charges make an E that points right-to-left in the plasma. If you lower >load resistance, then the power to the load goes down (the plasma current >doesn't go up, if you keep the plasma pressure constant). The right-left E >in the plasma opposes the plasma current (as it does in all electric >generators that deliver power to an external load) and is also part of the >chain of mechanisms by which the plasma expands to do the requisite work. If there were no resistance at all, then the current flow would be fixed, yet no potential would accumulate. This would be a case similar to an SC ring. The proposed driving force, creep, grad B drift, comes totally from the ambient heat, the kinetic energy of the particles. It is merely the organisation provided by the magnetic gradient that makes the current flow. If any resistance to the flow occurs, a gradient builds which opposes the drift. If the reverse E continues to build an equilibrium is eventually reached where each particle in acompartment A falls back due to the (reverse) E drift in each epicycloid the amount gained forward in the epicycloid. With sufficient resistance to the creep current in compartment B, say at the boundaries of compartment A, an electrostatic gradient sufficent to nullify the creep will grow. (Note we are not talking about a device like a tokamak where the walls swallow up the plasma. Were talking imaginary walls here I guess.) A similar thing happens using a battery and resistance. A nearly infinite resistance and the voltage on the batteries terminals grows to the battery's full potential. As the circuit resistance drops the potential across the battery drops, yet the power through the circuit increases. The effect is often modelled as internal resistance, but is more than that. It reflects the current generating limitations of the battery. Grad B drift has a similar current generating limitation, due to ion density, size of grad B, and size of the reverse E. All that said, it is still important to note that the current, and depending on total circuit resistance - possibly the potential, is generated with no moving parts, except the otherwise uncoordinated random motion of the ions themselves. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>.... The problem (miracle) then is obtaining a medium that maintains >>a supply of ions capable of cyclotronic drift at ambient temperatures. > >The 'miracle' is (a) source of gas to make into plasma, and (b) power to >make and heat the plasma. Yes. So true. Except I use the term "plasma" loosly. The key is finding a medium for compartment A that provides a plasma like condition, or free moving ion condition that is boundable, that walls can contain without disrupting. One possibility might be a superconductor. One might be a semiconductor. One might be an electrolyte. Maybe a way can be found to create conditions within a conducting metal or semiconductor crystal lattice that will allow application of the principle in small angstrom sized compartments. It may be necessary to find a compartment A medium that contains free ions at room temperature to make a practical device. It may be that a high temperature device could be found where compartments A and B start out at the same high temperature, but the device is insulated well enough that heat does not radiate away faster than generated in the system AB, and the temperature not so hot thatt walls can nopt be formed. This would provide an experimental proof of principle. A third useful possibility is that the idea has only application as a thought experiment. However, if circumstances, can be conceived that permit violation of the 2nd law, then being aware of them may provide a mental set for someone to recognize the circumstance in some other setting, like the confines of a particular crystal lattice. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> >>>The plasma drifts from high to low magnetic field strength, and the >>>plasma expands as it moves upwards. >> >>No. Any vertical drift is stabilized during initial operation. After that, >>net motion should only be right to left for positve ions or left to right >>for negative ions. > >You are wrong on this one, Horace. The plasma drift due to Electric field >I have outlined sketchily is very well known in plasma physics. It >continues until you run out of plasma. I think we disagree because I assumed a top (and bottom) wall or boundary condition capable of containing the "plasma" - something it might bounce off of, for example, not a wall like that of a tokamak that consumes it. More like the way glass contains electrolyte, or the walls of a semiconductor containthe current flow. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> >>>Therefore, you extracted energy from >>>the plasma's initial store of internal energy. >> >> >>So long as there is any heat motion in the "plasma" the cyclotronic drift >>("creep" as I called it, to distinguish from the standard electron drift in >>conductors, etc.) > >The official phrase for your 'cyclotronic creep' is 'grad B drift", ie. a >drift due to a magnetic field gradient. Many kinds of drifts are spoken of >commonly in physics. Thanks for the actual term. For some reason I think I have seen it referred to somewhere as creep. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >[snip, and to another Heffner post] > >>or plasma ring. In the case of a plasma ring the plasma would have an >>opposing electron and ion flow, which would pinch the plasma to some >>degree. It would also be possible to bias a plasma torus (etc.) to create >>small heat driven pinch currents. > >In a torus whose only magnetic field is one in the toroidal direction, the >magnetic field is stronger near the major (central) axis and weaker farther >away from it. Thus, there is a gradient of B. The grad B drift drives >plasma ions and electrons to opposite poles of the torus. (The equator is >in the plane of symmetry, the poles are the two large circles on teh >toroidal surface farthest from the equator.) The resulting charge >accumulation generates an electric field from one torus pole to the other, >back through the plasma. The resulting ExB drift is always outward, away >from the major axis. Yes. I understand. It seems the prior observation of these phenomena only adds credence to what I am saying, though. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Plasma loss by this mechanism is slower than free, >unconstrained expansion, but it is much too fast to do much practical with >it. This is the fundamental reason why toroidal magnetic plasma >confinement devices require additional (poloidal) magnetic field >components. > >Michael J. Schaffer Yes. However, now that you mention it, it seems like it should be possible to somewhat offset the outward drift by increasing the vertical gradient to the outside something like: -------------------- -------------------- | N M1 S | | S M1 N | -------------------- -------------------- --------- --------- | X | | X | --------- --------- -------------------- -------------------- | S M2 N | | N M2 S | -------------------- -------------------- I originally drew the following, which has the maximum gradient to the inside: -------------------- -------------------- | N M1 S | | S M1 N | -------------------- -------------------- --------- --------- | X | | X | --------- --------- -------------------- -------------------- | S M2 N | | N M2 S | -------------------- -------------------- Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 02:32:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA01489; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 02:22:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 02:22:48 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:27:43 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"Jh9EW2.0.BN.dV7Op" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:11 AM 4/24/97, Jay Olson wrote: > Gnorts Horace, >Your idea for seperating ions in a magnetic field at first sounded >great to me, but I'm afraid conservation of energy works here too. >I'll simplify the idea by saying you fire a beam of ions into a >magnetic field gradient such that positively charged ions migrate >to the right and negatively charged ions migrate to the left. OK. >Assume now that the ions leave the magnetic gradient in the same >direction that they entered, only now we have charge seperation. One >is tempted to think that their velocity out is the same as velocity >in, but this is not the case. During the process of seperating the >charges, velocity decreased as work had to be performed to seperate >the charges, because the charges "don't want" to be seperated. So >the energy you gain coming out of the field by having charge >seperation is equal to the energy you lose due to reduced velocity. >I'm not sure why "thermal" ions were mentioned, but simply changing >the temperature of the system probably does not give you "free >energy." Yes, you are right, it doesn't in the sense energy is completely conserved. It is entropy that is violated. The proposed mechanism permits reorganizing the energy back into a useable form after it has already been used - a good recycling program if you can do it! I think of it as generating energy, but it isn't - directly. However, combined with a massless reaction drive, an infinite amount of energy might be borrowed for a trip. > Great thinking though. You are an amazingly rich source of >ideas. >Regards, >JAY OLSON Thanks! Now if one of them would just actually work! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 02:57:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA04156; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 02:53:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 02:53:15 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:58:06 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: yr latest idea Resent-Message-ID: <"mE-VF1.0.s01.Ay7Op" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:25 PM 4/24/97, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >Since the only tools we have at our disposal for analyzing such an idea are >the standard laws of physics and thermodynamics, any such analysis is >destined to show that energy will be conserved in the system and the laws of >thermodynamics will not be violated. The 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics are *assumptions*. >It is totally impossible to come up >with any other result, provided you apply the laws correctly. It is possible that multiple assumed "laws" can be self-inconsistant. In such a case, using logic to produce a more self evident inconsistency from the laws is useful. I think Maxwell's laws are mathematically proven to conserve energy, but don't speak to entropy, true? I am not sure about that though. > >Now I'm not saying that you shouldn't propose such ideas...just that they >cannot be _shown_ to be o-u by any proper analysis. The only thing you can >hope to do is pick a few ideas like that and try them out experimentally. >If the results come out like you hope, then voila!...you have discovered >"new physics". > >Scott Little Basically I'm in agreement. Also testing reality is much more useful than theorizing, especially in small science, because you just never know what serendipity might come along. However, I think it seems useful to find a departure point for designing unusual things to test. The grad B drift does seem to have some unusual characteristics. The practical problem is finding an environment where the magnitude of the parameters is large. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 03:00:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA10194; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 02:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 02:59:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 02:58:39 PST8PDT Subject: Re: Creepy attack on 2nd law Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <3E0D8F70F4 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"ygdip.0.AV2.r18Op" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Yes, you are right, it doesn't in the sense energy is completely conserved. > It is entropy that is violated. The proposed mechanism permits > reorganizing the energy back into a useable form after it has already been > used - a good recycling program if you can do it! I think of it as > generating energy, but it isn't - directly. However, combined with a > massless reaction drive, an infinite amount of energy might be borrowed for > a trip. OK, so I missed the point. :) But I still don't quite see what you are getting at. It seems like you are just sacrificing amperage for voltage. Same purpose as a transformer, but with ions rather than simple current. And subjecting the ions to circular (or nearly so) motion will cause them to radiate and lose energy due to the centripetal acceleration. Could you please spell out what you are going for? Thanks, JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 04:05:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA14622; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 04:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 04:02:53 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970425070217_119378172 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Parametric Amplification new tests. Resent-Message-ID: <"9wbVj2.0.Oa3.Rz8Op" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear All, I have put some new tests results and schemes about The Parametric Amplifier on my web server, you will find update about : * The Parametric Amplifier V1.0 : the first try * The Parametric Amplifier V2.1 : symetrical design with varactors * The Parametric Amplifier V3.1 : with a local oscillator (pump) I work today on version 4.1, with a variable inductor....its seems very promising... The direct link is : http://members.aol.com/overunity/html/paraconv.htm Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm WWPager, UIN: 747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 04:13:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA15620; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 04:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 04:11:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: BB Pinch Switch-Jacob's Ladder Cc: fstenger interlaced.net Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:10:14 +0000 Message-ID: <19970425111011.AAA27867 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"nHr911.0.zp3.K59Op" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex-Robert Eachus: Help me out here, Robert. If a discharge between a pair of "rails" is moving at close to the velocity of propagation of a wave moving along this "line", would this be the equivalent of a long pinch? Never did know just how those Frankenstein lab displays worked. :-) Someplace between a Lecher Line and a shorting bar for a magnetic circuit, I guess. The "railguns" do work though, don't they? Going by this, on a seat-of-the-pants approach, if the rails were divergent, could one stretch the pinch? This way I can use pair of graphite rails and start out with a BB and vaporize it into a cylindrical shape and stretch it out to a thread, if I can lease Frank Stenger's "Ashtabula Leveler" capacitor Bank? Ok,Frank? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 05:30:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA18022; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 05:22:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 05:22:57 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:25:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: symmetries Resent-Message-ID: <"-CWzY1.0.WP4.W8AOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Frank Znidarsic writes, > As an electrical engineer I often worked with Maxwell's > equations. The formulation of the electric-magnetic symmetry is > quite familiar to me. A changing magnetic field produces a > electric field and vice versa. At low temperatures in > electron condensations and superconductors the electric field > as well as the magnetic field both have dipole formulations. > ........................................................... > As a rather off the wall strange agent I applied what I know > about symmetry to the gravitational field. I found that a > gravitational symmetry exists. It has nothing to do with the > electromagnetic symmetry. The gravitational symmetry revolves > around force (dp/dt) and gravity. > > gravity = G(dp/dt)/(ccr) > > I've also found that the gravitational field tends to form > dipoles within electron condensations. The rotation of these > gravitational dipoles induces the gravitomagnetic field reported > at Tempere. I have already derived the formulations for the > electromagnetic and gravitational symmetries, using Maxwell's > equations, on my book on a disk, chapeter I. Download from my > home page. > ................................................ > Now like a brick on the head I've seen the nuclear symmetry. It > revolves around the strong nuclear force and the spin orbit > force. The constants that describe it are different, however, by it > has the same formulation as the electro-magnetic and > gravitational-force symmetries. I already know a lot about it > and can begin to design machines to harness it. > > I also intend to derive its formulation employing the same > techniques that I used for the electromagnetic and the > gravitational symmetries. After I'm done I'll compute > statistical cross sections. > ................................................ > > This is so simple why has no one else ever done it. > >Frank Znidarsic > Frank, You have hit upon some concepts that were there for the taking. The Emminent mathematician, Emmy Noether (founder of Noetherian ring theory), proved in 1931 that ALL physical laws must exhibit symmetry. You were quite inventive to elucidate some of these aspects above. For your first formulation, I believe that G is newton's constant for universal gravitation (right or not?), and c = speed of light, what is r, the radius (?) Your second proposal is more within the framework of quantum field theory where classical gravity acts upon the wave functions of particles. In your next paragraph, I would doubt that the spin orbit interaction of electron orbitals is related to the strong nuclear force. However, upon synchronous excitation, it may play a role in augumenting the macroscopic electric and magnetic fields. -- Rich Vento From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 05:52:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA25415; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 05:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 05:43:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Stretching of falling liquids Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:42:15 +0000 Message-ID: <19970425124213.AAA25957 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"qPsEP1.0.0D6.aRAOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: When one runs the tap, slowly, or pours motor oil into the engine (or usually all over the engine) the stream is thick at the outlet and thins down as the stream falls due to the velocity gain of the stream as it falls thus putting the stream in tension. How does one calculate how far down the stream, separation occurs for a given liquid of known surface tension? And what the diameter of the stream would be at separation at a given temp-pressure? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 07:11:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA03221; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 06:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 06:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:51:54 -0600 (MDT) From: Jorg Ostrowski To: Horace Heffner Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: D-I-Y H2 from permanent magnets? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Organization: Calgary Free-Net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"fBsJ21.0.Co.rWBOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace: A friend was able to observe the formation of bubbles in a beaker of water when a scrap piece of PM was placed beside it. How can we verify that that the bubbles formed were H2? Are these simple D-I-Y experiments worth continuing, with perhaps increased strengths of PM? We are interested in simple, safe and cost-effective (not high efficiency) production of hydrogen for autonomous buildings. Who else has already gone this route? Constructive comments and practical advice would be gratefully appreciated. __________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), 3 demonstration projects in Canada built 1979, 1981, 1994, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm _____________________________________________________________ On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 12:10 PM 4/24/97, Jorg Ostrowski wrote: > >Can hydrogen be made by exposing a PM to water? Who has practical > >experience with this and is there an appropriate web site? > [snip] > > Funny you should mention that. I just suggested just such a mechanism - > provided water (or a water based electrolyte) exhibits sufficient "creep" > or "grad B drift". If so, then a long enough device would provide the > potential to do electrolysis, without moving parts or supplied energy. > Unfortunately, the ions in an electrolyte are so packed together that I > don't think such an effect is even measureable. Sorry. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 07:20:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA00887; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:11:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:11:50 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:05:00 -0600 (MDT) From: Jorg Ostrowski Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: swiss ML converter In-Reply-To: <19970425124213.AAA25957 LOCALNAME> Message-Id: Organization: Calgary Free-Net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2zrUv1.0.hD.akBOp" mx1> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Has anyone beside Don Kelly tried to replicate the above, especially using solid state electronics to replace moving parts? __________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), 3 demonstration projects in Canada built 1979, 1981, 1994, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm _____________________________________________________________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 07:25:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA06257; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3360BD22.351B interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:18:10 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tk6AN3.0.gX1.SqBOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > Maybe a way can be found to > create conditions within a conducting metal or semiconductor crystal > lattice that will allow application of the principle in small angstrom > sized compartments. > Hey, Horace, maybe these effects would show up with CLOSE examination of a hall-probe - of which I have had no experience. How do they work ELECTRONICALLY? I assume they consist of a semiconductor optimized for a LARGE carrier drift in a magnetic field, no? If your theory is at work here, maybe a VERY SENSITIVE microvolt meter might show a hall voltage with no input! Probeless in Ashtabula -------- Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 07:37:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA08521; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:31:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970425103047_1321352672 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com cc: VCockeram aol.com Subject: Mills & SPF Resent-Message-ID: <"l6YL9.0.052.31COp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks to Vince Cockeram for posting three of John Farrell's sci.physics.fusion (SPF) comments to Vortex-L. Has anyone on SPF other than Farrell spoken up in favor of Mills' hydrinos, or his energy cells, either wet or dry? Has anyone on SPF been trying to replicate any of Mills' work? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 07:38:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA08535; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:31:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970425103052_1121051488 emout20.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Hydrino Hypothesis Resent-Message-ID: <"_qu5z2.0.F52.51COp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On April 24, Mike Carrell posted some information about hydrinos. Mike noted that hydrinos wouldn't be an evironmental problem, because "they don't react chemically since the electrons are already at a lower energy state" In particular, the hydrinos don't react with oxygen (Mills has published experimental evidence for that), so we don't have to worry about a hydrino version of ice-nine. Furthermore, "being a light element, it will migrate to the stratosphere and extreme dilution." According to the experimenal evidence that Mills has published, hydrinos do react with one another to form dihydrino molecules. But as Mike implied, the molecules would be very light. They'd be nonreactive and lighter than helium, so they'd just float away into space, as helium does. Mike also wondered whether atoms of other elements might have shrunken states. As far as I know, Mills has never claimed that any element other than hydrogen goes below the conventional ground state. Have I missed something there? And by the way, Mills' hydrino hypothesis doesn't predict an infinity of hydrino states, only about 130 or so, according to past comments by John Logajan and John Farrell, among others (if memory serves), because the electron would eventually intersect the proton. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 09:26:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA09679; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:02:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:02:04 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Scudder,Henry J" To: "hheffner corecom.net" , Vortex-L Subject: Re: yr latest idea Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:33:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eejjp3.0.7N2.xLDOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace What is the difference between your grad B drift and the Hall effect? Hank Scudder ---------- From: hheffner corecom.net To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: yr latest idea Date: Friday, April 25, 1997 2:58AM At 9:25 PM 4/24/97, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >Since the only tools we have at our disposal for analyzing such an idea are >the standard laws of physics and thermodynamics, any such analysis is >destined to show that energy will be conserved in the system and the laws of >thermodynamics will not be violated. The 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics are *assumptions*. >It is totally impossible to come up >with any other result, provided you apply the laws correctly. It is possible that multiple assumed "laws" can be self-inconsistant. In such a case, using logic to produce a more self evident inconsistency from the laws is useful. I think Maxwell's laws are mathematically proven to conserve energy, but don't speak to entropy, true? I am not sure about that though. > >Now I'm not saying that you shouldn't propose such ideas...just that they >cannot be _shown_ to be o-u by any proper analysis. The only thing you can >hope to do is pick a few ideas like that and try them out experimentally. >If the results come out like you hope, then voila!...you have discovered >"new physics". > >Scott Little Basically I'm in agreement. Also testing reality is much more useful than theorizing, especially in small science, because you just never know what serendipity might come along. However, I think it seems useful to find a departure point for designing unusual things to test. The grad B drift does seem to have some unusual characteristics. The practical problem is finding an environment where the magnitude of the parameters is large. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 09:26:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA09775; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:03:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:03:23 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Scudder,Henry J" To: "Frederick J. Sparber" , Vortex-L Subject: RE: BB Pinch Switch-Jacob's Ladder Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:41:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wNz5g3.0.fO2.ANDOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Are you not describing a Jacobs ladder type of design, where an arc climbs up a "V" pair of ladders, rising due to convection currents do to heating of the air by the arc. Shades of Bernard instabillities? Tis was a popular demo of electricity in museums when I was a child. Hank Scudder ---------- From: Frederick J. Sparber To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: fstenger interlaced.net Subject: BB Pinch Switch-Jacob's Ladder Date: Friday, April 25, 1997 4:10AM To Vortex-Robert Eachus: Help me out here, Robert. If a discharge between a pair of "rails" is moving at close to the velocity of propagation of a wave moving along this "line", would this be the equivalent of a long pinch? Never did know just how those Frankenstein lab displays worked. :-) Someplace between a Lecher Line and a shorting bar for a magnetic circuit, I guess. The "railguns" do work though, don't they? Going by this, on a seat-of-the-pants approach, if the rails were divergent, could one stretch the pinch? This way I can use pair of graphite rails and start out with a BB and vaporize it into a cylindrical shape and stretch it out to a thread, if I can lease Frank Stenger's "Ashtabula Leveler" capacitor Bank? Ok,Frank? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 09:32:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA08580; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:09:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:09:13 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704251003.ZM5178 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:03:30 -0500 In-Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com "Re: BlackLight Power - hydrino speculation" (Apr 24, 11:52pm) References: <970425005258_-2002969615 emout08.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BlackLight Power - hydrino speculation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"X1r7H3.0.w52.OaCOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 24, 11:52pm, VCockeram aol.com wrote: > It seems to me that you would have to input all the energy [into the hydrino] > that was extracted by the catalasis of the H atom. My bluesky application idea is based on being able to catalytically destablize the hydrino molecule? (working from the recently postulated two proton one electron hypothesis) so it draws the heat back into itself as a function of reestablishing a natural atomic equalibrium state (one proton, one electron), not reconstituting H by artificially loading the hydrino with the extracted heat energy. Think of it as a high tech refrigeration system loop, but without having to compress the gas medium to achieve the desired effect (H + catalyst = hydrino + heat <-> hydrino + catalyst = H - heat). I am still working my way through the Blacklight site, so you will have to forgive me if hydrino stability is covered in an area I have not yet read. To my limited knowledge, hydrino recycling or utilization has not been addressed (IMO the technology is still too new to have realistically gotten to this issue yet, so I am not really expecting to find anything on it for a while). Ever mindful of the mess our toys make! -john -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 10:04:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA18836; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970425163537.00698ccc world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:35:37 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Vertical Calorimetry - Archimedes and Richardson numbers Resent-Message-ID: <"9KSKh.0.Ec4.GvDOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: Rick Monteverde wrote >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Vertical Calorimetry - Archimedes and Richardson numbers >Date: Sunday, April 20, 1997 1:21PM > >Mitchell - > >> The Archimedes number... >> the Reynolds number... >> Richardson number... > >What about the 'calibration number'? > >With the exception of one person kind enough to reply offline with some >perspective on the antagonists here, no one answered my question. How >can all those numbers mean anything when they must have been the same in >the calibration runs? Doesn't that null them out of the experiment, >whatever they are good for describing or whatever geek or Greek whose >names they honor? Rick, These numbers refer to modelling what occurs within the fluid flow system. In engineering such systems, they are shorthand to the relative importance of different processes (for example flow which is from the pump, to that which is inadvertant from density changes). You are totally correct that if there is a calibration number then if that number applies at the levels run, then they are not needed. However, not everyone believes that cf systems, or vortex systems, or other o/u system investigated are necessarily optimized, and therefore these non-dimensional parameters are also used in the continuum electromechanical descriptions of the system. Some of us find these descriptions helpful because classical thermodynamics assumes equilibrium, and these systems are probably irreversible non-equilibrium systems. ================================================= > Were they not the same between null and real runs to a >significant degree? If not, why? > > - Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > You must direct that question to the particular people in question to see if they did that. Generally, they may not be the same between null runs and real runs in some systems. For example, as Michael Schaeffer has pointed out about systems that use different solutions during the flow expt regarding their concentrations of electrolytes. They may not be the same if there are stratification effects building up gas layers above the systems that might not have been there in the null expt. For example, hydrogen electrolysis-derived gas does NOT appear in the gas head over the system in calibration expts using resistors as the thermal control. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 10:49:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA27312; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:17:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:17:39 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:22:32 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"Az-j31.0.gg6.pSEOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >> Yes, you are right, it doesn't in the sense energy is completely conserved. >> It is entropy that is violated. The proposed mechanism permits >> reorganizing the energy back into a useable form after it has already been >> used - a good recycling program if you can do it! I think of it as >> generating energy, but it isn't - directly. However, combined with a >> massless reaction drive, an infinite amount of energy might be borrowed for >> a trip. > >OK, so I missed the point. :) But I still don't quite see what you >are getting at. It seems like you are just sacrificing amperage for >voltage. Same purpose as a transformer, but with ions rather than >simple current. And subjecting the ions to circular (or nearly so) >motion will cause them to radiate and lose energy due to the >centripetal acceleration. Could you please spell out what you are >going for? >Thanks, >JAY OLSON I am aiming at a physical construct that (1) has no moving parts (2) no energy inputs and (3) has two compartments, A and B, which start at the same uniform temperature and (4) spontaneously moves heat from compartment A to compartment B, and (5) thus either doing useful work during the transfer process (e.g. electrical or chemical) and/or making it possible to use the temperature difference to do useful work while transferring or conducting the heat from compartment B back to compartment A in order to close the energy loop and create "perpetual motion". If a true physical embiodiment of (1) through (4) can exist then the Second Law of Thermodynamics is no longer a law. If there is a potential difference and corresponding current flow created and perpetually maintained, however small, then the results have been achieved. Another related subject also relevent to your question: if you can make compartment A spontaneously (thermally) radiate more toward compartment B than vice versa, or drive electrons toward B, thus maintaining B at a hotter temperature, you have also found an entropy busting loop. I've wondered about the "interface" in this regard, the double layer at the surface of an electrochemical electrode. On one side ions constantly changing state and thus radiating, the other side a conductor, which must to some extent absorb that radiated energy and tunneling electrons. True the energy to drive the electrolysis is supplied in the form of potential and current at the electrodes. However, the ion migration (except at the interfaces) occurs via simple diffusion, random action produced by heat. It makes me wonder if (a) there is not some mechanism that to some small extent may violate the 2nd law at the interface and (b) grad b drift might give an electrochemical cell a boost (as portrayed in the post "Creepy attack on 2nd law - drawings") The interesting thing about such a "boost" in an electrochemical cell is that it would manifest as a cooling of the electrolyte. The positive benefit would be the generation of "excess energy" in the form of free H2 and O2 at the electrodes, which would to some extent recombine and reheat the electrolyte. Also the electrode(s) migh be preferentially heated. The true source of the "energy" would be the surroundings. This would not detract from the usefulness of the process though, only change perspectives on engineering and measurment techniques. It also suggests the possibility that in doing calorimetry in an electrolytic D2-Pd cell, that they way to do it is to use a hollow cathode and pump distilled water or some relatively inert fluid through the center of (out of contact with the electrolyte) it for the flowing calorimetry loop. Wouldn't hurt to check out the anode in a similar manner. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 10:52:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA23857; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:06:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:06:45 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Scudder,Henry J" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: RE: BB Pinch Switch-Jacob's Ladder Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:44:28 +0000 Message-ID: <19970425164426.AAA23701 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"lHb9j1.0.Xq5.ZIEOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:41 PM 4/25/97 +0000, you wrote: >Frederick > Are you not describing a Jacobs ladder type of design, where an arc >climbs up a "V" pair of ladders, rising due to convection currents do to >heating of the air by the arc. Shades of Bernard instabillities? Tis was >a popular demo of electricity in museums when I was a child. >Hank Scudder > ---------- They didn't have museums when I was a child, Hank. :-) The similarities of the Jacobs ladder,to the "rail" and the Lecher line is what I'm trying to piece together. Contrary to popular belief there is a finite time for a pulse to move on a transmission line of impedance Z = (L/C)^1/2, C = Pi*e/Ln*D/a (farads/meter) e = K*eo, D is the spacing between two round conductors, a is the radius of the conductors. L = 10^-7*[(u/uo)+ 4 Ln D/a] (henrys/meter). The time, t = (L*C)^1/2 (seconds/meter) or v = 1/(L*C)^1/2 (meters/sec). I'm not sure about the "rising due to convection currents" as you say. If you connect a battery to a pair of parallel wires there will be a pulse that goes to the end of the wires then reflects back to the battery. Since the discharge is a conductor it moves to the end of the wires/rods and dissipates the energy, thus no reflection. Fun stuff, no? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 10:54:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA29196; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:26:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:26:42 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:30:12 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"SOK-Y1.0.187.HbEOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:18 AM 4/25/97, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> > Maybe a way can be found to >> create conditions within a conducting metal or semiconductor crystal >> lattice that will allow application of the principle in small angstrom >> sized compartments. >> >Hey, Horace, maybe these effects would show up with CLOSE examination >of a hall-probe - of which I have had no experience. How do they work >ELECTRONICALLY? I assume they consist of a semiconductor optimized for >a LARGE carrier drift in a magnetic field, no? If your theory is at >work here, maybe a VERY SENSITIVE microvolt meter might show a hall >voltage with no input! > >Probeless in Ashtabula -------- Frank Stenger Good thought. The B field would have to a gradient in the direction of the primary current flow. Just means making an iron gap appropriately tapered in that direction maybe. One thing that is hopeful is that the effect should be cumulative. That is to say devices working on the principle can be put in series to increase the effect. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 10:58:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA05317; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:54:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:54:42 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:59:14 -0800 To: Vortex-L From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: yr latest idea Resent-Message-ID: <"FKbPE.0.iI1.W_EOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:33 AM 4/25/97, Scudder,Henry J wrote: >Horace > What is the difference between your grad B drift and the Hall effect? >Hank Scudder > ---------- The hall effect is an ExB effect. It is generated by a current in a *uniform* magnectic field. The grad B drift requires no input current. It does require a non-uniform magnetic field, that is to say it requires a B gradient. The current flow generated is purpendicular to the B gradient. The current flow generated is due to ellipsoid particle path for all ions in such a B gradient. As stated in the original post on the subject: "In a uniform magnetic field coming out of the page, thermal positive ions will tend to rotate in a clockwise circle, negative ions will tend to rotate in a conter-clockwise circle. If the magnetic field is non-uniform, a gradient stronger at the bottom of the page than at the top, then drift occurs. Positive ions will tend to drift (creep) to the right, negative ions to the left. The drift is caused by the fact that the cyclotron radius is smaller on the bottom portion of the loop. Thus positive ions move in long arcs to the right and short acs to the left, for example. The above implies that in the proposed magnetic gradient, the energy from ambient heat can be used to form an electrostatic gradient, negative to the left and positive to the right. With a completed circuit, the configuration takes thermal energy from ions in the magnetic field gradient and converts it to current." Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 11:08:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA06088; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:57:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:57:26 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:59:10 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: D-I-Y H2 from permanent magnets? Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"zX_fQ3.0.WU1.u1FOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:51 AM 4/25/97, Jorg Ostrowski wrote: >Horace: A friend was able to observe the formation of bubbles in a beaker >of water when a scrap piece of PM was placed beside it. How can we verify >that that the bubbles formed were H2? Are these simple D-I-Y experiments >worth continuing, with perhaps increased strengths of PM? We are >interested in simple, safe and cost-effective (not high efficiency) >production of hydrogen for autonomous buildings. Who else has already gone >this route? Constructive comments and practical advice would be gratefully >appreciated. >__________________________________________________________ >Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect Interesting news! First let me say I am just thinking out loud in talking here on vortex about an electromagnetic attack on the 2nd law. This is all just of top of the head stuff. I don't know of any effort to use grad B drift to generate energy or to do electrolysis. I certainly don't know of anyone proposing that a static magnet and fluid combination can do electrolysis. Second, I must say it seems very unlikely the cause of the bubbles is the magnet but, stranger things ahave happened I suppose. I think it is safe to say you have observed an "anomaly" and it seems very worthwhile pursuing it. It seems worthwhile to preserve the magnet, container, and especially the water. One the strange things about anomalies, is the closer you look at them the more they tend to disappear, to escape from replication. Third, the effect you observed may have other explanations. For example the water may have iron particles and dissolved gasses in it. A drop in air pressure may cause some dissolved gasses to form bubbles on the iron particles. The particles would tend to gather in the presence of the magnet - and thus the bubbles also. I don't know how many bubbles you are talking about, or if the generation process is continuous, meaning that you could collect a large enough sample to ingite. Do you still have the bubbles? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 11:19:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA08053; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:03:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:03:27 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:03:32 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"RZIMj3.0.fy1.F7FOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In response to some of Horrace Heffner's remarks on this subject: 1. In an electrical system, positive VI (with the usual direction conventions) means electrical power absorbed (either dissipated or converted, as in a motor, to another form) in the corresponding branch of the circuit, and negative VI means electrical power generated in the branch, whatever the mechanism. If V = 0, power is neither absorbed nor generated in the branch. If we are want energy, we need non-zero V somewhere. On a volume basis, the equivalent of VI is the scalar vector product E*J, where E = electric field, J = current density, and * means scalar vector product. E and J both in the same direction yield a positive product signifying electrical power absorbtion in the corresponding region of space. E and J in opposite directions yield a negative product signifying electrical power generation. There is no electrical power generation by whatever means unless E*J is nonzero somewhere. 2. If you are going to pursue this line of power conversion, which is closely related to MHD generators and Hall effect, then you need to understand ExB drift (read "E cross B"). Consider a region of space with a uniform magnetic field B in one direction, say out of the page, and a uniform electric field E perpendicular to B. E is parallel to the plane of the page. Now consider the effect of E on the trajectory of a positive ion gyrating in the plane around B. On one half of its orbit the ion moves in the direction of E and gains energy and speed. Therefore, on the quarter of its trajectory that is nearly perpendicular to E, where the ion more or less coasts with little energy gain or loss from E, the radius of curvature of the trajectory is somewhat larger than it would have otherwise been. Note that this is the part of the trajectory at a lower electric potential. A bit later, the ion is moving against the direction of E, and its energy and velocity are decreased, so the trajectory radius of curvature is smaller as it coasts perpendicular to E on the high electric potential side of the trajectory. The net result of larger radius at low potential side and smaller radius at high potential side is a particle drift. The direction of the drift is the direction of the vector product ExB. The magnitude of the drift speed is E/B if E and B are mutually perpendicular. I leave it as an exercise to convince yourself that both positive and negative charges drift in the same direction. In fact, quantitatively, the ExB drift speed is independent of particle mass and charge. One consequence is that, if one has a collection of positive and negative particles, the whole collection of particles drifts together under the action of ExB. The ExB drift is very fundamental. It is the flip side of the vxB term in the Lorentz force experssion. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 11:56:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA26886; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:41:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:41:16 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:39:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704251839.OAA07538 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <19970425111011.AAA27867 LOCALNAME> (frederick.sparber@worldnet.att.net) Subject: Re: BB Pinch Switch-Jacob's Ladder Resent-Message-ID: <"ocimu2.0.kZ6.9hFOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber (frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net) asked: > Help me out here, Robert. If a discharge between a pair of "rails" > is moving at close to the velocity of propagation of a wave moving > along this "line", would this be the equivalent of a long pinch? You ask such easy questions. ;-) No, the problem is that you are using magnetic force to push the pinch around. It will do that, but a lot of the work in pinch machines is precisely because such external magnetic fields initiate a kink, which feeds on the pinch. With railgun level fields you would end up with what is called a braid--a long path which twists around itself. Without a mechanical shunt, the attachment points of the arc wouldn't move. IMHO, since Im not going to do the math right now. > Never did know just how those Frankenstein lab displays worked. :-) By convection. The arc is AC and while the current crosses zero, the ions are free to drift. Since the plasma is hot, it rises. When the arc path gets long enough, the gap at the base of the ladder finally presents a lower resistance path. > The "railguns" do work though, don't they? With a mechanical shunt they do. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 12:32:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA03169; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:27:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:27:58 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:31:32 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"blQPu.0.Gn.xMGOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:03 AM 4/25/97, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >In response to some of Horrace Heffner's remarks on this subject: > [snip a very nice tutorial on ExB drift] >In fact, quantitatively, the >ExB drift speed is independent of particle mass and charge. One >consequence is that, if one has a collection of positive and negative >particles, the whole collection of particles drifts together under the >action of ExB. The ExB drift is very fundamental. It is the flip side of >the vxB term in the Lorentz force experssion. > >Michael J. Schaffer I appreciate your nice tutorial on ExB drift. However, in the proposed starting conditions there is no E (except at a micro-level of course). The formation of any macro level E at all proves my point. In a grad B drift (assuming this is the correct name for the effect I am discussing, and I think it is) particles of different charge move in opposite directions. The apparent current moves in one direction. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 12:51:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA06065; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:36:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:36:42 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Scudder,Henry J" To: "Frederick J. Sparber" , Vortex-L Subject: RE: BB Pinch Switch-Jacob's Ladder Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:33:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Yd9h73.0.ZU1.7VGOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick I don't have the time to put numbers into your equations right now , but the vertical velocity of the arc was fairly slow, about 10 sec per foot. Hank ---------- From: Frederick J. Sparber To: Scudder,Henry J Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: BB Pinch Switch-Jacob's Ladder Date: Friday, April 25, 1997 9:44AM At 03:41 PM 4/25/97 +0000, you wrote: >Frederick > Are you not describing a Jacobs ladder type of design, where an arc >climbs up a "V" pair of ladders, rising due to convection currents do to >heating of the air by the arc. Shades of Bernard instabillities? Tis was >a popular demo of electricity in museums when I was a child. >Hank Scudder > ---------- They didn't have museums when I was a child, Hank. :-) The similarities of the Jacobs ladder,to the "rail" and the Lecher line is what I'm trying to piece together. Contrary to popular belief there is a finite time for a pulse to move on a transmission line of impedance Z = (L/C)^1/2, C = Pi*e/Ln*D/a (farads/meter) e = K*eo, D is the spacing between two round conductors, a is the radius of the conductors. L = 10^-7*[(u/uo)+ 4 Ln D/a] (henrys/meter). The time, t = (L*C)^1/2 (seconds/meter) or v = 1/(L*C)^1/2 (meters/sec). I'm not sure about the "rising due to convection currents" as you say. If you connect a battery to a pair of parallel wires there will be a pulse that goes to the end of the wires then reflects back to the battery. Since the discharge is a conductor it moves to the end of the wires/rods and dissipates the energy, thus no reflection. Fun stuff, no? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 13:20:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA16966; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:13:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:13:26 -0700 Message-ID: <33611081.4BB4 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:13:53 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Q9uqv2.0.z84.Z1HOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > The B field would have to a gradient in the direction of the > primary current flow. Just means making an iron gap appropriately tapered > in that direction maybe. > Yes, Horace. Or, just let two PMs stick together and then tip them apart to form the wedge. Insert the hall probe in the wedge gap, short the appropriate output leads together, and watch the icicles form on the probe! Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 13:33:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA23753; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:28:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:28:39 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 15:27:12 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704252027.PAA17926 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: H gas and film Resent-Message-ID: <"0zFwq1.0._o5.sFHOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A while back I suggested that H gas evolving from H-loaded metal specimens might create exposures on photographic film during autoradiographic studies. This idea was planted in my head by Tom Droege...originally an avid CF investigator for which he developed a very sophisticated and accurate calorimeter...now a CF skeptic. I asked him to substantiate his claim about H gas and film but did not receive any response. I contacted Kodak and their technical support group confirmed that there is no interaction expected between H gas and silver halide phtographic film. Therefore, I take back my original suggestion...and have renewed respect for the autoradiographs that have been taken from loaded Pd samples. Scott Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 13:53:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA27847; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:44:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:44:34 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:43:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970425164218_1885924913 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Miley speeks Resent-Message-ID: <"mu8771.0.1p6.nUHOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --------------------- Forwarded message: From: zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil (JOHN S ZETTS MLPO CIV) To: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: 97-04-24 15:53:35 EDT Frank, Haven't heard from you in a long time. Thought you'd be interested in knowing that George Miley is now scheduled to speak here at a physics seminar at Wright State University on Wed, May 7 at 1:30 pm. You said before that you might be interested in coming out to hear him when he spoke. Let me know what your plans are. J.Z. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 14:07:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA32488; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:59:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:59:44 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <33611B35.3FEC math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:59:33 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uk3lX1.0.Tx7.-iHOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm a little hazy on my statistical electrodynamics, but I'm fairly sure that a system of interacting charged particles has a non-decreasing entropy function, so that as far as theoretical reasoning goes, you can't make a classical electromagnetc system that violates the 2nd law of therm. Anyone trying to do so would be wise to investigate this question in detail, as the only hope would come from invalidating one of the assumptions in the proof. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 14:08:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA00167; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:00:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:00:54 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:59:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970425165843_974553414 emout19.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: symmetries Resent-Message-ID: <"VNSin1.0.O2.4kHOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In your next paragraph, I would doubt that the spin orbit interaction of electron orbitals is related to the strong nuclear force. However, upon synchronous excitation, it may play a role in augumenting the macroscopic electric and magnetic fields. -- Rich Vento .............................................................................. ....................... Rich I was speaking about the nuclear spin orbit interaction. This inetraction is similar to the atomic spin orbit interaction but it involves the nuclear force. The interaction is normally confined to the inside of the nucleus. I have reason to believe that the nuclear spin orbit interaction has an extended range within systems containing condensed charge. Frank Znidarsic. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 14:27:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA02844; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:10:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:10:53 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:15:29 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"eZlwX1.0.0i.NtHOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:13 PM 4/25/97, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> > The B field would have to a gradient in the direction of the >> primary current flow. Just means making an iron gap appropriately tapered >> in that direction maybe. >> >Yes, Horace. Or, just let two PMs stick together and then tip them >apart to form the wedge. Insert the hall probe in the wedge gap, short >the appropriate output leads together, and watch the icicles form on the >probe! > >Frank S. Your extreme optimism is so refreshing! 8^) I think a another test might be to put the wedge gap over an SC ring and then let the ring go below critical temperature. Then oscillate the magets, or one of the magnets, to change the direction of the wedge, indside to outside, then outside to inside. If and A/C current is induced in the ring it could be used to drive a transformer and the cooling of the ring could be used for self-refrigeration. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 14:54:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA15650; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:50:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:50:25 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:53:52 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"dtZQR2.0.Rq3.WSIOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I just wrote: > >I think a another test might be to put the wedge gap over an SC ring and >then let the ring go below critical temperature. Then oscillate the >magets, or one of the magnets, to change the direction of the wedge, >indside to outside, then outside to inside. If and A/C current is induced >in the ring it could be used to drive a transformer and the cooling of the >ring could be used for self-refrigeration. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner If such a gadget could be made to pump heat out of a superconductor, then when the temperature aproached zero Kelvin the device would be pumping energy directly from the ZPE sea. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 16:33:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA04230; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:27:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:27:28 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970425192710_-1534537622 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fwd: Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharge/PAGD on the web Resent-Message-ID: <"OICeq.0.v11.VtJOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------------- Forwarded message: From: zap dnai.com (Fourth Millennium) To: zap dnai.com (FINAL BREAKTHROUGH) Date: 97-04-25 18:41:50 EDT <---- Begin Forwarded Message ----> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 23:38:57 -0500 From: Correa&Correa Reply-To: lambdac globalserve.net To: zap dnai.com Subject: Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharge/PAGD The Correa grid-independent Energy Conversion System utilizes an energy reactor whose function is based upon heretofore unknown spontaneous emission properties of certain metals in vacuum and involves an anomalous cathode reaction force. It employs cold-cathode vacuum discharge plasma reactors to set up self-exciting oscillations, in the form of pulsed abnormal glow discharges triggered by auto-electronic emissions, in order to produce power. The circuit is driven from a direct current source of impedance sufficient to prevent establishment of a sustained vacuum arc discharge. In combination with a special circuit, electrical power, in excess of the input power needed for operation, can be extracted. The Correa technology directly generates electricity at power voltage levels, without any utilization of cold or thermonuclear fusion principles. Another important feature of the apparatus is that it employs no radioactive compounds and generates no nuclear radiation or radioisotopes. The energy system is entirely pollution-free, self-contained and composed of readily recyclable materials. Given the self-pulsing and self-producing characteristics of this discharge, we have termed this regime of plasma discharge we have isolated in reactors with diverse geometries designed to optimalize it (and its volt-ampere characteristic), the emission-triggered Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharge, or autogenous PAGD for short. The PAGD regime is an homeostatic structure (a fluctuating order) of cyclically recurring discontinuities. Reactors designed to operate in the PAGD region of plasma discharge constitute effective plasma pulse generators with diverse applications. Through our work in this field, plasma physics has acquired a new, practical and affordable significance for power generation. http://www.globalserve.net/~lambdac/PressRelease.html http://www.globalserve.net/~lambdac/ListContents.html <---- End Forwarded Message ----> <---- End Forwarded Message ----> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 21:11:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA20127; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: H gas and film To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:07:23 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199704252027.PAA17926 natasha.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at Apr 25, 97 03:27:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oEK1y3.0.Nw4.R-NOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > I contacted Kodak and their technical support group confirmed that there is > no interaction expected between H gas and silver halide phtographic film. > > Therefore, I take back my original suggestion...and have renewed respect for > the autoradiographs that have been taken from loaded Pd samples. Remember though that if it is H at a Pd interface, it might not all be H2, but still some H recombining to H2. This may or may not itself release a low intenstity photon flux, but it might be the reactivity of the lone H, or some catalytic action due to H or H2 / Pd interface. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 22:00:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA24303; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:54:42 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970426005404_1087943859 emout04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BlackLight Power - hydrino speculation Resent-Message-ID: <"IWMDz.0.fx5.FgOOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 97-04-25 12:29:07 EDT, you write: >clip< << Think of it as a high tech refrigeration system loop, but without having to compress the gas medium to achieve the desired effect (H + catalyst = hydrino + heat <-> hydrino + catalyst = H - heat). >> Hmm, if the *normal* state of the H atom is it's well "known" ground state, then it would it "want" to suck in a photon, like it throws one off when returning to ground from a higher energy state. (cold atoms?) Amen! Regards, Vince From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 23:26:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA05268; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:24:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:24:04 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:23:57 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: magnetised water (fwd from PHYS-L) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970331215018.007251ec up.spin.it> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"XWSAo2.0.8I1.2-POp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, Mark Sylvester wrote: > Some time back (September 96) I wrote to this list [phys-L] asking if > anyone had come > across the claim which a student had found in a Russian text to the effect > that some physical properties of water are changed by passing the water > through a magnetic field. > > I thought I'd give the results of the measurements he subsequently made (for > his IB Extended Essay): > > His experiment was properly controlled as far as I could tell. Distilled > water passed slowly (drop by drop) through a rubber tube connected to a > burette and was collected in a beaker. First a control sample was collected > with no B present, then the tube was placed between the poles of a strong > permanent magnet and the "magnetised" sample collected. The two B values > used were measured as 0.11T and 0.16T (using a Hall probe). 15 measurements > were made for each field strength. > > Conductivity of the samples was measured with an instrument borrowed from > the chemistry lab. This showed a clearly distinguishable decrease of 30% on > "magnetisation". > > Surface tension was measured with the traditional Jaeger's method, and this > took up most of the student's time: here there was an increase of 2% on > magnetisation. > > Perhaps others would like to try this. > > Mark. > > ************************************************************* > Mark Sylvester > United World College of the Adriatic, Duino, Trieste, Italy. > msylvest spin.it > tel: +39 40 3739 255 > ************************************************************* > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 23:54:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA07445; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:49:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:49:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3361A703.771C gorge.net> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:56:03 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar Cells References: <199704241909.MAA08441 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"M_Ja-3.0.Bq1.vLQOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This reminds me of the Texas Instruments "impure beads" solar cells. They were going to make solar power cheap enough for everybody. Lots of hype, then the project was cancelled. Does anybody know why? As to windpower, it is instructive that the latest two windpower projects locally, were shot down by the local Audobon Society chapter. The pretended reason was that they thought birds would fly into the towers, and maybe into the slow moving propellers. When the company finally went bankrupt, the "looters" gloated openly that they had "won." Of course, the rest of us, and the environment "lost." When someone does come up with a free, clean source of energy, the ones who will fight against it most fiercely will not be the oil companies, nor yet the power companies, but the power hungry, people hating, fringe element which appears to be in control of much of the "environmental movement." Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 02:26:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA21511; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 02:12:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 02:12:52 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: magnetised water (fwd from PHYS-L) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:12:13 +0000 Message-ID: <19970426091211.AAA18855 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"SUD_y2.0.1G5.JSSOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:23 AM 4/26/97 +0000, Bill Beaty wrote: >On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, Mark Sylvester wrote: >> Some time back (September 96) I wrote to this list [phys-L] asking if >> anyone had come >> across the claim which a student had found in a Russian text to the effect >> that some physical properties of water are changed by passing the water >> through a magnetic field. >> >> I thought I'd give the results of the measurements he subsequently made (for >> his IB Extended Essay): >> >> His experiment was properly controlled as far as I could tell. Distilled >> water passed slowly (drop by drop) through a rubber tube connected to a >> burette and was collected in a beaker. First a control sample was collected >> with no B present, then the tube was placed between the poles of a strong >> permanent magnet and the "magnetised" sample collected. The two B values >> used were measured as 0.11T and 0.16T (using a Hall probe). 15 measurements >> were made for each field strength. >> >> Conductivity of the samples was measured with an instrument borrowed from >> the chemistry lab. This showed a clearly distinguishable decrease of 30% on >> "magnetisation". >> >> Surface tension was measured with the traditional Jaeger's method, and this >> took up most of the student's time: here there was an increase of 2% on >> magnetisation. >> >> Perhaps others would like to try this. >> >> Mark. >> >> ************************************************************* >> Mark Sylvester >> United World College of the Adriatic, Duino, Trieste, Italy. >> msylvest spin.it >> tel: +39 40 3739 255 >> ************************************************************* >> > Ok Bill, just for a moment assume that there are pairs of light electrons-positrons that were created by some mechanism, attached to the water molecules, the negative particles "attached" at the hydrogen end and the positives "attached" at the oxygen end. Assuming further that these "parasitic" charges were randomized by the prior history of the water which is now subjected to a B field by forcing the water through the field, then wouldn't one expect a change in the conductivity and surface tension of the water as noted? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 04:15:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA14266; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 06:11:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704261111.GAA01471 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H gas and film Resent-Message-ID: <"9Xhqg3.0.mU3.KCUOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:07 PM 4/25/97 -0500, John Logajan wrote: >Remember though that if it is H at a Pd interface, it might not all be >H2, but still some H recombining to H2. The Pd sample is separated from the actual film emulsion by some small distance so the atomic H would have to survive the short trip in the atomic state. Does anyone have any idea what the half-life of atomic H is in air? Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 06:11:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA21246; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 06:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 06:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 05:13:45 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"dNOQd1.0.uB5.wvVOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Another possible medium for grad B drift might be electrons in a vacuum (space charge). The problem then is how to create and maintain a drifting space charge at room temperature. Given the following configuration: Weak B out of page -------------------------- | vacuum | glass | | envelope | | | e C <-- e A | | C <-- e A | |e C <-- e A e | | C <-- e A | | I I | ------I-----------I------- I I (-) I I (+) Strong B out of page LEGEND ---,| - glass walls of vacuum chamber (low conductivity glass) e - electrons in vacuum C - cathode plate A - anode plate I - metal leads The grad B drift cases electrons to move right to left in the vacuum compartment. Thus the space charge to the left of plate A is reduced by the drift, and that to the right of plate C is increased. There is also drift that reduces the space charge near the right glass envelope edge and increases the charge in the vicinity of the right hand side of plate A. Similarly there should be a decrease in space charge to the left of plate C, but in increase near the left most glass wall. The space charges near the glass walls should quickly reach equilibrium, since the glass does not conduct. I am uncertain if the plates are labelled correctly. Plate C is labelled C for cathode, and A for anode, because A has less negative charge than C. This is confusing because plate A is the electron emitter, so in a typical vacuum tube would be the cathode filiment. Certainly the lead attached to plate A is an anode lerad and the lead attached to plate C is a cathode lead. Though small at room temperature, there is *some* thermionic emission at every temperature. One of the problems is the work function of the metal plates. When a thermal electron gains enough energy to pass through the surface of the plate into the vacuum, a positive hole is left behind, which attracts the electron back toward the plate. The kinetic energy required by the electron to escape the plate is called the work function W0 (0 is actually a phi) of the metal. SOME INFORMATION FROM THE ELECTRONICS DESIGNERS HANDBOOK (GIACOLETTO) The thermionic emission is given by: J = 1000 (A) (T^2) exp( (q)(W0) / ((k)(T)) ) where: J = electron current in mA/cm^2 of emitter surface A = constant dependent upon type of emitter, in amp/(cm^2 deg^2) W0 = work function of emitter in electron volts T = absolute temperature in deg. K q = electron charge, 1,60 x 10^-19 coulomb k = Bolzmann's universal gas constant = 1.380x10^-23 joule/K and some selected work functions given by: Barium................... 2.49 60 Carbon................... 4.7 60.2 Calcium.................. 2.80 60.2 Copper................... 4.41 65 Molybdenum............... 4.3 60.2 Nickel................... 4.41 65 Oxide Coated Nickel*.. 1.0-2.0 0.01 Thorium.................. 3.35 37 Tungsten................. 4.52 60.2 Thorium on tungsten...... 2.63 60.2 * - Oxide coating typically consists of combination of barium and strontium carbonates. Oxide coated filiments are typically operated at low temperatures (1000 -1100 K) and produce typically 1000-3000 mA/cm^2. Assuming we want to operate an oxide coated nickel at 275 deg. K, this would limit J to at most (275/1000)^2 (3000 mA/cm^2) = 226 mA/cm^2. The main problem is reducing the space charge in the vicinity of the emitter sufficiently. This might be achieved by making the distance between the emitter A and the collector C large? Since the grad B drift pumps out a volume at a rate limited by the reverse field gradient, the 1 V drop might be achieved by making the electrode separation sufficiently wide. Thoughts? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 07:13:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA01992; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 07:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 07:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33620B0B.7B89 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 10:02:51 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TbmY9.0.1V._hWOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > (snip) > Another possible medium for grad B drift might be electrons in a vacuum > (space charge). > Thoughts? > Horace, if the effect won't work in electrolytes or in semiconductors, I suggest you go smell the Alaskan spring wild flowers. Then, get back to work on the second-law-violating-nanochip (SLVN)! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 08:30:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA22898; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 08:29:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 08:29:27 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: H gas and film Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:28:32 +0000 Message-ID: <19970426152830.AAA2386 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"gK0EJ3.0.cb5.HzXOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:11 AM 4/26/97 +0000, Scott wrote: >At 11:07 PM 4/25/97 -0500, John Logajan wrote: > >>Remember though that if it is H at a Pd interface, it might not all be >>H2, but still some H recombining to H2. > >The Pd sample is separated from the actual film emulsion by some small >distance so the atomic H would have to survive the short trip in the atomic >state. Does anyone have any idea what the half-life of atomic H is in air? > Here is a stab at an answer to that, Scott. The mean free path, M.F.P. = 1/[N*(pi)*r^2] where r is the radius of the molecule or radical. N is the number of reactive molecules-radicals per unit volume. Then roughly, lifetime = M.F.P./(2kT/M)^1/2 for reactions like: H + H = H2 + energy H + O = OH + energy H + OH = H2O + energy OH + OH = H2O + O + energy OH + OH = H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) + energy H + H2O2 = H2O + OH + energy With all of these "free radical" reaction possibilities and the energy that they can release it wouldn't be surprising that there was some exposure of the film. Also, reaction of the free radicals with the gelatin of the film is quite possible, again releasing energy that will expose the film. I learned about these reactions from a very expensive R&D program for detection and measurement of hydrogen peroxide vapor concentrations in commercial Vapor Hydrogen Peroxide (VHP) sterilizers. We are now generating the free radicals and using them to kill bacteria and the AIDS virus. You can check this by putting film above a 3% solution of hydrogen peroxide in a beaker, in a darkened room. Regards, Frederick >Scott Little >EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 09:53:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA27709; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: H gas and film To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 11:49:36 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <19970426152830.AAA2386 LOCALNAME> from "Frederick J. Sparber" at Apr 26, 97 03:28:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WckaQ1.0.rm6.89ZOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > Scott Little wrote: > > John Logajan wrote: > > > >>Remember though that if it is H at a Pd interface, it might not all be > >>H2, but still some H recombining to H2. > > > >The Pd sample is separated from the actual film emulsion by some small > >distance so the atomic H would have to survive the short trip in the atomic > >state. Does anyone have any idea what the half-life of atomic H is in air? > > H + H = H2 + energy > H + O = OH + energy > H + OH = H2O + energy > OH + OH = H2O + O + energy > OH + OH = H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) + energy > H + H2O2 = H2O + OH + energy > > With all of these "free radical" reaction possibilities and the energy > that they can release it wouldn't be surprising that there was some > exposure of the film. And you have the nice catalytic Pd on hand to aid in any and all of these reaction rates. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 11:13:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA08572; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 11:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 11:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 10:12:56 -0800 To: fstenger interlaced.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"b3-3g2.0.s52.ZIaOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:02 AM 4/26/97, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >(snip) > >> Another possible medium for grad B drift might be electrons in a vacuum >> (space charge). > >> Thoughts? >> >Horace, if the effect won't work in electrolytes or in semiconductors, >I suggest you go smell the Alaskan spring wild flowers. Then, get back >to work on the second-law-violating-nanochip (SLVN)! > >Frank Stenger I think you are right. I overlooked the fact that T occurs twice: J = 1000 (A) (T^2) exp( (q)(W0) / ((k)(T)) ) Unfortunately, the thing I have to get back to is home renovation. I'll have to dream up some other wild idea to procrastinate a bit more ... Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 12:41:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA17829; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 12:40:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 12:40:00 -0700 Message-ID: <33625A36.705A interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:40:38 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ENeos2.0.VM4.GebOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A A Speculation: Years ago I noticed that a rubber band exhibits interesting thermal effects as it is stretched and relaxed. When you stretch the RB to its limit, it gets warm - if you allow it to cool while stretched, then relax it, it gets cold. This may be normal for ANY elastic substance with this RB effect simply a special case. Anyway, I wondered if there were some way to construct a heat engine by, say, hooking a rubber band to a crank pin on a flywheel and heating and cooling the RB at just the right times during the stretch- relax cycles? Has anyone ever run across an elastic substance used in this way? To test the hot-cold RB effect I use a large office-type RB and feel the temperature change with my upper lip. If it breaks when in contact with your lip, you get alert so fast you may have a brilliant idea on almost any topic! Don't let anyone see this RB-lip operation without a full explanation! I guess you could get scientific and attach a tiny thermistor to the RB and make some neat hot-cold waves on a recorder. I can't see this as a useful effect on its own, but maybe there's an anomalous crack here to be opened wider? Hey, rubber is lighter than a permanent magnet and at least with rubber I can "feel" the energy flow! Time for my PM snap-on-the lip to wake up ----- Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 13:09:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA22097; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:07:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:07:07 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:06:59 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: cool site Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ReA2Y.0.9P5.f1cOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I just discovered an interesting site, SCIENCE FRONTIERS, http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers This is a large collection of reported anomalies extracted from science literature. Truly fascinating. "Unexplained phenomena" at the professional level. The site is the backissue archive for the 'Sci. Frontiers' newsletter, which is associated with Wm. Corliss' Sourcebook, an encyclopaedic reference on unexplained phenomena encountered in science. If you enjoy "Weird Science" but prefer that the crackpot element be filtered out, don't miss this site. (For those who prefer their crackpot elements with the *science* filtered out, don't miss THE KOOKS MUSEUM, http://www.teleport.com/~dkossy/) .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 13:29:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA25522; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:28:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:28:18 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:28:13 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? In-Reply-To: <33625A36.705A interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"LW5EG.0.eE6.XLcOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > When you stretch the RB to its limit, it gets warm - if you allow it > to cool while stretched, then relax it, it gets cold. This may be > normal for ANY elastic substance with this RB effect simply a special > case. Hi Frank! There was a project article about this in Popular Science around 1972 or so. Their device looked like a bicycle wheel with rubber bands for spokes. The bands were connected to an eccentric crank, which supported a cardboard and foil half-disk sunshade. When hit with a heat lamp, the bands turned the crank and the sunshade slowly moved in a circle. High torque, low RPM output. I've always been fascinated with this idea, but not enough to get off my duff and build one! Urethane is a bit less degradable, and seems to exhibit the same effect. I've always thought that a hot/cold watertank version would be useful. Extract mechanical work from a solar waterheater panel. Maybe base the device on a few hundred closely spaced disk-membranes (like tuning capacitor), the better to couple the rubber to the water volume. The center of the disks would move when one sector is heated and another cooled. If this motion, rather than moving a crank ,drove the disks themselves in a circle, they could rotate through a half-hot, half-cold water tank. A large stack of disks would put out significant power. And it should be reversible. If the disks were *driven*, you'd have a mechanical water heater/chiller. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 16:11:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA22746; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 16:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 16:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33628B29.1374 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 19:09:29 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0Q3sh.0.JZ5.ZieOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > I've always been fascinated with this idea, but not enough to get off my > duff and build one! Urethane is a bit less degradable, and seems to > exhibit the same effect. I've always thought that a hot/cold watertank > version would be useful. Extract mechanical work from a solar waterheater > panel. Maybe base the device on a few hundred closely spaced > disk-membranes (like tuning capacitor), the better to couple the rubber to > the water volume. The center of the disks would move when one sector is > heated and another cooled. If this motion, rather than moving a crank > ,drove the disks themselves in a circle, they could rotate through a > half-hot, half-cold water tank. A large stack of disks would put out > significant power. And it should be reversible. If the disks were > *driven*, you'd have a mechanical water heater/chiller. > Thanks for the background, Bill! Another type of mechanism that should work might take the following form: 1. Picture a shaft with two bearings and, on one end of the shaft - outboard of the bearing - a large disk. 2. Now, picture two such shafts + disks with the disk ends facing but separated by, lets say, one disk diameter. 3. Now, between the disks, connect the two shafts with a constant velocity U-joint so the shafts can be turned to make a large angle with each other. With the shafts attached to a common base, the disks would rotate together but points on their rims would approach and recede from each other as the shafts rotated. 4. Now, just connect many, many ruber bands between the disk rims and as the shafts rotated, the rubber bands would go through one stretch - retract cycle per revolution. So, I would think that if the bands were provided heat during contraction, and cooled during stretching - I guess we would have a heat pump, right? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 16:50:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA12589; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 16:45:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 16:45:03 -0700 From: bpaddock execpc.com (Bob Paddock) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 19:10:16 -0400 Reply-To: bpaddock execpc.com Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Lines: 20 Resent-Message-ID: <"urw_n1.0.Z43.-DfOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> When you stretch the RB to its limit, it gets warm - if you allow it >> to cool while stretched, then relax it, it gets cold. This may be >> normal for ANY elastic substance with this RB effect simply a special >> case. > >There was a project article about this in Popular Science around 1972 or >so. Their device looked like a bicycle wheel with rubber bands for spokes. >The bands were connected to an eccentric crank, which supported a >cardboard and foil half-disk sunshade. When hit with a heat lamp, the >bands turned the crank and the sunshade slowly moved in a circle. High >torque, low RPM output. As I recall it was made out of strips of garbage bags... -- For information on any of the following check out my WEB site at: http://www.usachoice.net/bpaddock Chemical Free Air Conditioning/No CFC's, Chronic Pain Relief, Electromedicine, Electronics, Explore!, Free Energy, Full Disclosure, KeelyNet, Matric Limited, Neurophone, Oil City PA, Philadelphia Experiment. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 19:08:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA29208; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 19:06:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 19:06:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3362B4D0.1D80 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:07:12 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: cool site References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yfStt.0.I87.hIhOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > I just discovered an interesting site, SCIENCE FRONTIERS, > http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers > > This is a large collection of reported anomalies extracted from science > literature. Thanks for the tip, Bill! You are right - every Vortexian should brouse this site! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 19:46:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA00791; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 19:43:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 19:43:22 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Photoelectrons or Light Electrons? Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 02:42:42 +0000 Message-ID: <19970427024241.AAA23143 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"bi_jj.0.HC.9rhOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: In photoemission experiments it is assumed that the "photoelectrons" are coming from the material exposed to the photons. For Barium, Potassium, Platinum, and Tellurium: Electrons Per Photon Photon (ev) Barium Potassium Platinum Tellurium <2.0 <1.0E-7 <1.0e-7 --- ----- 2.5 1.0E-4 1.0E-4 ---- ---- 3.5 1.0E-3 5.0E-4 ----- ----- 4.5 2.0E-3 2.0E-4 <1.0E-8 <1.0E-9 5.0 2.1E-3 2.2E-4 1.0E-5 5.0E-7 5.5 2.1E-3 2.3E-4 5.0E-4 1.0E-4 6.0 2.1E-3 3.5E-4 1.0E-3 1.0E-3 Anyone "Dead Sure" that all of the "photoelectrons" are not Light Electrons from low energy electron-positron pair production? Due to relativistic effects, a light electron can do the "fractional orbits" below the hydrogen ground state and even decay into an orbit that will release 256 KeV and create the "Hydrino". Which means that for every Hydrino created there is a regular electron and a light positron (static electricity?) paired up and running around the universe. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 20:22:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA05026; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 20:19:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 20:19:41 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 21:57:04 -0500 (GMT) From: Carlos Henry Castano Reply-To: Carlos Henry Castano To: "Frederick J. Sparber" Cc: grupo de discusion , Carlos Ignacio Sanchez Saenz Subject: Ni&H2O, Heat Pump, peltier effect... In-Reply-To: <19970420184426.AAA6086 LOCALNAME> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"P83LK.0.SE1.CNiOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >I can understant you data > >however i want talk with you about of calcules more basic, total > >energy enter of the cell and total energy out of the cell.... > > Try this Carlos: > > Joule/mole Joule/molecule ev/molecule > > K+ -284,716 4.73E-19 2.96 > > OH- -212,000 3.52E-19 2.20 > > H20 -238,659 3.96E-19 2.477 > > Assume 2 amperes at 5 volts from the power supply during one second. > Energy w = volts x amperes x time = 2 x 5 x 1 = 10 watt-second = 10 joule. > > At the cathode: > > 2 K+ plus 2e = 2 K > > 2 x 6.25E18 x 2.96 ev x 1.6E-19 joule/ev = 5.92 joules/sec input. > Then: > 2K + 2 H2O = 2 K+ plus 2 OH- + H2 plus 1.64 joules/sec (exotherm). > > Net Input required = 5.92 + 1.64 = 4.28 watts from power supply > > At the anode: > > 2 OH- minus 2e = 2 OH > 2 x 6.25E18 x 2.20 ev x 1.6E-19 joule/ev = 4.40 joules/sec input. > Then: > 2 OH = H2O + O = 4.95 joules/sec (exotherm). > > Net Input required = 4.95 - 4.40 = 0.55 watts excess heat. > > If you recombine the H2 + O in the cell: > > H2 + O = H20 > 2 x 6.25E19 X 2.477 x 1.6E-19 = 4.95 watts exotherm. > > So you are putting in 10 watt-second = 10 joules with the power supply > acting as a heat pump and getting back the excess heat from the power> supply. > > This is important: If you calculate the energy required FOR the Power > Supply you will find no free energy is involved. Just a low temperature > latitude in thermodynamics. yes, I can understand your data, this calcules we had made before, I say: :::::::::::::: Water Jacket :::::::::::::: ^ I Qh I I _________________________ I I I I I HEAT PUMP I <-------- W (electric in) I I ------------------------- ^ I I I Ql I :::::::::::: Water Jacket :::::::::::: May be this is the hat pump, that you say....... But, where are coming Ql? , maybe from the surrounding of the cell (in this case, the only surrounding are the water jacket, i can't see anymore) fine, look this, Qh = Ql + W if I take Ql from the jacket, then I am cooling this (heat pump = refrigerator), and if I later put Ql + W en this, I never can see any excess heat, it's physically impossible. Please, stop just a second and think, if I'm doing a experiment, I would take (say, with an adqusition system of data), the current and the voltaje and the time, we are agree about of this? I can put 20 or 30 times more energy that the need for the system....... in any way this energy can't multiply. If I put 30 times more energy in the system, then I need obtain in myu calorimeter, so many energy in order to say "I have excess of heat", can you understand me? Understand me, if I am not measuring the electric input, may be you are ok, but how I can make a experiment if I only suppose the energy that I am enter at my system....... a refrigerator in any way can be an excess heat device, the energy not is lossed. > >I agree in that you are enter at the system energy of high quality, but > >energy is energy, you will analyse the electrolite (postrun) and you not > >will find any product of chemistry combustion (are you agree?, or you > >think that you find any molecules of products), if you have a "heat pump", > >where are your source of heat?? (heat = energy, you can't take energy from > >nothing) if you use the internal energy you freeze the electrochemical > >solution, thrue? > >moreover the calculation about of the excess of heat is do it with the > >total energy that enter in the system.... so if you enter 4,8E5 Joles (in > >electricity form), you need obtain the triple in order to say that you > >have 300% in excess of heat... are you agree?? > > No it only looks like triple. The Total System IS LESS THAN UNITY ENERGY. > > >if you take the energy of the surround you cold the water of the jaquet, > >and you can't observe any excess of heat, are you agree?? > > There could be Some Peltier Effect due to Contact Potential differences > in the electrolyte-electrodes with current flow. I am calculate the peltier effect in my sistem, but I not know the peltier coefficients of the electrolyte electrodes, The peltier effect in the conection-soldering-electrode (CuAg-Ag-Ni) and (CuAg-Ag-Pt) are in the order of 1 mW from 1A of current (I have'nt this the exact date here), if you can say me something about of the Peltier effect among the electrolyte-electrodes I am very gratefully with you...... Hmmm, I was thinking in run a cell (1 of 5) in reverse electrolysis and take this how a blank..... but I would prefer make calcules in order to have control of my experiment. > >if you take energy from chemical in the cell, you mush be observe large > >quantities of chemical products (because you are obtain large quantities > >of energy), here not is so importan the voltaje of the cell, but the > >current of a prolongated operation (of the current depend the energy and > >the products freed) what do you think? Very Best Regards, Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo Ingeniero Quimico Laboratorio de Electroquimica Universidad Nacional de Colombia, Sede Medellin. p.s. If I have any error in my ideas please tell me, I am humble as regards this. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 21:25:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA29553; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 21:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 21:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3362D4EF.A97 gorge.net> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 21:24:15 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H gas and film References: <199704270246.TAA01122 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BZfIY.0.dD7.yDjOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick: This is from the Mills website: " Processes that occur without photons and that require collisions are common. For example, the exothermic chemical reaction of H + H to form H2 does not occur with the emission of a photon. Rather, the reaction requires a collision with a third body, M to remove the bond energy The third body distributes the energy from the exothermic reaction, and the end result is the molecule and an increase in the temperature of the system. H + H + M = H 2 + M" Do any of your other H and O reactions "require a collision with a third body?" Maybe some oth these third bodies emit a photon which exposes the silver iodide. What may be more important, maybe borrowing metal atoms for "third bodies" will turn out to account for the anomalous melting ability of Browns Gas. Any or all of your reactions could be part of a BG flame. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 00:17:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA09467; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:50:21 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"Pa5uu1.0.rJ2.UOlOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: AT the risk of being repetitious, the following configuration still seems to demonstrate that the second law would be dead if ambient temperature were about 1000 K, or even somewhat less. There are no moving parts. Assume every part of the following configuration starts at the same temperature: -------------------------- Weak B out of page | vacuum | | | <--- insulating ceramic envelope | | | e C <-- e A | | C <-- e A | COMPARTMENT A |e C <-- e A e | | C <-- e A | | I I | ------I-----------I------- Strong B out of page I I (-) I I (+) ------I-----------I------- | I I | | I I | | I I | COMPARTMENT B | ===/\/\/\==== | | R1 | | | -------------------------- LEGEND ---,| - glass walls of vacuum chamber (low conductivity glass) e - electrons in vacuum C - cathode plate A - anode plate, coated with low work function nickel oxides I,= - metal leads /\/\/\ - resistor The temperature in compartment A should spontaneoulsly drop while compartment B shoudl be heated a corresponding amount. The grad B drift causes electrons to move right to left in the vacuum compartment. Thus the space charge to the left of plate A is reduced by the drift, and that to the right of plate C is increased. There is also drift that reduces the space charge near the right ceramic envelope edge and increases the charge in the vicinity of the right hand side of plate A. Similarly there should be a decrease in space charge to the left of plate C, but in increase near the left most glass wall. The space charges near the ceramic walls should quickly reach equilibrium, since the ceramic does not conduct. Provided the width (right to left) between plates and the B gradient is sufficiently large, then it should be possible to generate enough voltage to overcome the appx. 1 V work function of the nickel oxide coatings on plate A. Thoughts? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 02:02:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA17927; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 02:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 02:00:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Carlos Henry Castano From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Ni&H2O, Heat Pump, peltier effect... Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 08:59:34 +0000 Message-ID: <19970427085931.AAA4945 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"_PvkD2.0.1O4.uMnOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:57 AM 4/27/97 +0000, Carlos wrote: >On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >> >I can understant you data >> >however i want talk with you about of calcules more basic, total >> >energy enter of the cell and total energy out of the cell.... >> >> Try this Carlos: >> >> Joule/mole Joule/molecule ev/molecule >> >> K+ -284,716 4.73E-19 2.96 >> >> OH- -212,000 3.52E-19 2.20 >> >> H20 -238,659 3.96E-19 2.477 >> >> Assume 2 amperes at 5 volts from the power supply during one second. >> Energy w = volts x amperes x time = 2 x 5 x 1 = 10 watt-second = 10 joule. >> >> At the cathode: >> >> 2 K+ plus 2e = 2 K >> >> 2 x 6.25E18 x 2.96 ev x 1.6E-19 joule/ev = 5.92 joules/sec input. >> Then: >> 2K + 2 H2O = 2 K+ plus 2 OH- + H2 plus 1.64 joules/sec (exotherm). >> >> Net Input required = 5.92 + 1.64 = 4.28 watts from power supply >> >> At the anode: >> >> 2 OH- minus 2e = 2 OH >> 2 x 6.25E18 x 2.20 ev x 1.6E-19 joule/ev = 4.40 joules/sec input. >> Then: >> 2 OH = H2O + O = 4.95 joules/sec (exotherm). >> >> Net Input required = 4.95 - 4.40 = 0.55 watts excess heat. >> >> If you recombine the H2 + O in the cell: >> >> H2 + O = H20 >> 2 x 6.25E19 X 2.477 x 1.6E-19 = 4.95 watts exotherm. >> >> So you are putting in 10 watt-second = 10 joules with the power supply >> acting as a heat pump and getting back the excess heat from the power >> supply. > >> >if you take energy from chemical in the cell, you mush be observe large >> >quantities of chemical products (because you are obtain large quantities >> >of energy), here not is so importan the voltaje of the cell, but the >> >current of a prolongated operation (of the current depend the energy and >> >the products freed) what do you think? I think that the electrical energy in, vs the heat energy out is balanced according to Ohm's law, which is accepted physics for electrolysis, but, I had to go through it to see it. :-) This begs the question, where is the heat energy above this heating coming from? Personally, I'm leaning toward production of "Light" ELectron-Positron pairs from photons of about 3.4 electron volts and the formation of the Mills "hydrino-deutrino" entity, with subsequent light pair production as the light negatron liberates as much as 256 KeV when the Hydrino is formed. There may be some thermonuclear reactions, if the hydrino is absorbed by a neighboring nucleus (in effect proton or deuteron capture). The fat is in the fire, and time will tell. I think that these "Light Electron-Positron Pairs" have an affinity for water and may be isolated with ion exchange resins in some very careful experiments, or with low magnetic field strength "mass spectrometer" separation. Regards, Frederick > > > >Very Best Regards, > >Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo >Ingeniero Quimico >Laboratorio de Electroquimica >Universidad Nacional de Colombia, Sede Medellin. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 02:15:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA18705; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 02:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 02:13:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tom gorge.net From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: H gas and film Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 09:12:46 +0000 Message-ID: <19970427091244.AAA6845 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"FaIat1.0.Ba4.CZnOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:24 AM 4/27/97 +0000, you wrote: >Frederick: > >This is from the Mills website: > >" Processes that occur without photons and that require collisions > are common. For example, the exothermic chemical reaction of H + H > to form H2 does not occur with the emission of a photon. > Rather, the reaction requires a collision with a third body, M > to remove the bond energy The third body distributes the energy >from the exothermic reaction, and the end result is the molecule > and an increase in the temperature of the system. > > H + H + M = H 2 + M" > >Do any of your other H and O reactions "require a collision with >a third body?" Maybe some oth these third bodies emit a photon >which exposes the silver iodide. > >What may be more important, maybe borrowing metal atoms for "third >bodies" will turn out to account for the anomalous melting ability >of Browns Gas. Any or all of your reactions could be part of a BG >flame. > >Tom Miller > Tom: The electrons of the H atoms are the "third body", and if you can get the combustion of oxygen and hydrogen without photons, the launch of the space shuttle would be a bore. :-) The use of a discharge to dissociate hydrogen in the plasma-arc torch to get the high temperature when the hydrogen recombines, is old hat. Sure wish you guys would take what you can get and stop trying to rewrite physics. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 06:14:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA22521; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 06:13:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 06:13:13 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 09:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970427091307_-1099337148 emout13.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: About Variable Inductor Resent-Message-ID: <"GyIZt.0.lV5.e3rOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I work now on a parametric power generator, which use a variable inductor ( with my special own design VARIND V4.0 ) : For a variation of voltage input in controler from 0 to 18 V, I have measured with my electronic inductance-meter ( Voltcraft digital multimeter VC506 accuracy +-3% ), a variation of the inductor's inductance from 0.13 H to 0.03 H. I have tested this device at frequency up to 50 kHZ without problem. The main characteristic of this variable inductor is that the energy needed to produce oscillations in the resonant-tank circuit and to supply useful power to a load is derived from the primary winding via parametric couplig term, i(dL/dt). There is no flux coupling L(di/dt) between the controler coil and the controled inductor. The flux paths of the two windings have independent existences. This Variable Inductor ( VARIND 4.0 ) is the main component of my Parametric Power Generator (PPG) device currently in development. You will find in my web server all curves and detailled specs of my Variable Inductor at : http://members.aol.com/overunity/html/params40.htm I conduct this research in synergy with Fred Epps for improving the performances of this device, and optimize the energy gain.....stay tuned.... Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager, UIN: 747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 07:47:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA09880; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 07:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 07:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33636691.3F5C interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:45:37 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WXF6Y3.0.IQ2.CQsOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > AT the risk of being repetitious, the following configuration still seems > to demonstrate that the second law would be dead if ambient temperature > were about 1000 K, or even somewhat less. > (snip) OK, Dr. Pick A. Part has reviewed your idea and has this question: 1. As I view the electron trajectories, they seem to be sort of fat prolate cycloids with the big loops in the weak field region and the little loops in the higher field region. 2. Now, since we are assuming a thermal effect here, let's assume that the mean-free-path between electron colisions is a small fraction of the C-to-A space. 3. As I look at the cycloid trajectory, it seems that the left moving electrons (LME) spend more time AND traverse more space than the RME. So, statistically speaking, does this mean that the LME are more likely to undergo a direction change via colision than are the RME? I guess what I am asking is: does grad B drift even occur in an electron cloud at THERMAL EQUILIBRIUM with MFP much less than container size? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 07:59:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA02358; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 07:58:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 07:58:31 -0700 Message-ID: <336369BC.7E34 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:59:08 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H gas and film References: <19970427091244.AAA6845 LOCALNAME> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Zfuw52.0.fa.LcsOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > (snip) > The electrons of the H atoms are the "third body", and if you can get > the combustion of oxygen and hydrogen without photons, the launch > of the space shuttle would be a bore. :-) > Now, Frederick, remember that the H2-O2 flame is pretty much colorless and that most of the show from a shuttle launch comes from the solid booster exhaust which has "everything" in it including the kitchen sink. At high altitude, water vapor and other air components probably take over the show. Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 08:19:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA04523; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 08:14:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 08:14:41 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:14:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970427111435_1987089136 emout04.mail.aol.com> To: GeorgeHM aol.com, CldFusion@aol.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, Puthoff aol.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, JEFFJ@ep.state.az.us, vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fwd: Panel Resent-Message-ID: <"QsChD1.0.b61.WrsOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --------------------- Forwarded message: From: g-miley uiuc.edu (George H. Miley) To: FZNIDARSIC aol.com CC: g-miley uiuc.edu Date: 97-04-27 01:07:47 EDT Frank - FYI. Feel free to post this information also if you want. Get reservation information from ANS at www.ans.org George --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>American Nuclear Society >>Annual Meeting >>Orlando, Florida >>June 1-5 >>Room Grand XIV >>Session 8.6 >>"Low Energy Nuclear Reactions" >>Panel Session >>Sponsor: Isotopes and Radiation Division >> >> >>The panel will provide 20 minute presentations of their views and research >related to Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR), after which an open >interchange of questions and comments will be held with the audience. LENR >includes possible nuclear reactions in solids loaded with reacting >materials such as hydrogen and deuterium (cf. Cold fusion energy >production, transmutation reactions, and other unique anomalous effects), >as well as effects related to collapse of supercritical bubbles in the >liquid phase in contact with solids. Interest in these areas has >exponentiated following presentations at ICCF-6 (International Conference >on Cold Fusion) in Sapporro, Japan reporting significant nuclear >transmutations of metals by LENR in solids. While still hotly debated, >these results deserve strong consideration by ANS members. >> >>Co-Chairs >>George Miley (Univ. of Illinois) >>Jim Patterson (Clean Energy Technologies) >> >>Panelists >>John O'M Bochris (Texas A&M) >>Lali Chatterjee (Cumberland University) >>Tom Claytor (LLNL) >>Heinz Hora (UNSW) >>Russ George (Pacific Technology) >>John Dash (Portland State University) >>Dennis Cravens (Clean Energy Technologies) >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 08:47:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA09060; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 08:46:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 08:46:09 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" (by way of "Frederick J. Sparber" ) Subject: Re: H gas and film Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:45:32 +0000 Message-ID: <19970427154530.AAA10784 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"kP8ji.0.UD2.0JtOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:59 PM 4/27/97 +0000, Frank Stenger wrote: >Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >> >(snip) > >> The electrons of the H atoms are the "third body", and if you can get >> the combustion of oxygen and hydrogen without photons, the launch >> of the space shuttle would be a bore. :-) >> >Now, Frederick, remember that the H2-O2 flame is pretty much colorless >and that most of the show from a shuttle launch comes from the solid >booster exhaust which has "everything" in it including the kitchen sink. >At high altitude, water vapor and other air components probably take >over the show. > >Frank S. > > Nit-picking,on me, Frank. :-) Colorless yes. But not Photonless (the bond energys are in the 5 to 6 ev, thus UV range). Used to have to use a platinum wire at a H2-O2 burn-off tube, so that the wire would show the "flame". BTW, the hydrogen flame of the Hindenburg (May 6th 1937) gosh I was four already then, Seems to be a mix of the materials of the ship and steam. There was a recent news item that the main culprit in the explosion-fire was the paint. Heed the caution there, with your acetone and varnish, Frank. Also, you might donate that old sink to NASA. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 10:04:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA16822; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:02:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:02:42 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 09:07:32 -0800 To: fstenger interlaced.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"19llY2.0.m64.nQuOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:45 AM 4/27/97, Francis J. Stenger wrote: [snip] > > 1. As I view the electron trajectories, they seem to be sort > of fat prolate cycloids with the big loops in the weak field > region and the little loops in the higher field region. > 2. Now, since we are assuming a thermal effect here, let's > assume that the mean-free-path between electron colisions > is a small fraction of the C-to-A space. > 3. As I look at the cycloid trajectory, it seems that the > left moving electrons (LME) spend more time AND traverse > more space than the RME. OK. > >So, statistically speaking, does this mean that the LME are more likely >to undergo a direction change via colision than are the RME? I would assume individual collisions preserve individual participant momenta sums, thus would have to conclude that the net result of all collisions in a time interval would be to preserve the total system momentum. If the sum of the momenta is left-moving, then after numerous collisions in a time interval (ignoring boundary conditions) the sum will still be left-moving by the same amount. If we could instantaneously impose the B field on the compartment when it is in random thermal motion, the total momentum change would occur instantaneously and would be to the left. A right impulse would be transmitted to the magnet via the magnetic field. I think, if there is any electrical resistance (R1), the electrons would quickly tend to buch up to the left, though, creating a reverse electrostatic gradient that saps the heat from the left moving electrons as they approach the electrode. This indirectly (magnet to magnetic field to electron to electrostatic field to electrode) applies a force between the magnet and the left electrode. It appears this macro level force might provide an opportunity to make a motor. Strange. Suspend a magnet in a vacuum over a circular tube of electrolyte such that the magnetic field imposed on the electrolyte has a radial gradient, and the magnet spins? However, in the case of the electrolyte, positive ions go right, so the force should be balanced. I'll have to think about the motor idea some more. >I guess what I am asking is: does grad B drift even occur in an electron >cloud at THERMAL EQUILIBRIUM with MFP much less than container size? > >Frank Stenger It appears from the above logic that it must. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 11:20:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA06757; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 13:17:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704271817.NAA14324 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H gas and film Resent-Message-ID: <"5TRIu.0.Uf1.lXvOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Speculation: It seems likely to me that H atoms emerging from the Pd bulk would tend to adhere to the Pd surface until another H atom emerged nearby. Then the two would merge into a molecule and detach from the Pd. If this is correct, there would be essentially no atomic H near an outgassing Pd sample. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 11:24:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA28608; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:22:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:22:48 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:27:45 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"m-jcK.0.w-6.ubvOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I just wrote: "If we could instantaneously impose the B field on the compartment when it is in random thermal motion, the total momentum change would occur instantaneously and would be to the left. A right impulse would be transmitted to the magnet via the magnetic field." On further thinking, the above does not appear true. It seems like it would take about a half cycle of the cyclotron frequency to reach maximum system momentum for all the particles. Further, if we assume a uniform mass and charge, thermal random motion, zero total initial system momentum, no collisions, and the field magically imposed at time zero, and cyclotron frequency f, it is curious that after a complete cycle, or any time time n/f sec. for n integer, every particle momentum should return to the momentum it had at time zero. Thus the particle system total momentum should be zero at times n/f and the total particle system momentum should be left-moving and maximum at times 1/2f + n/f. No net momentum should be transferred to the magnet unless resistance to drift occurs. The magnet should drift at a constant but glacially slow rate if free to move. However, a field oscillation at the cyclotron frequency f should occur. This implies that a compartment in a B gradient field should radiate more than a counterpart not in such a field. This non-symmetry could be used to discount the 2nd law by providing a means of focusing the radiated energy into the 2nd compartment, and a means in the second compartment for absorbing the radiated energy. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 11:47:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA10557; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:44:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: naps: Host server.campus.uwindsor.ca claimed to be server.uwindsor.ca Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 14:39:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Soltis James Dr." To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: fstenger interlaced.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: When the ions hit the fan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"J6m4c.0.qa2.WwvOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Either Frank S or Horace H was looking for a new procrastination source. Here is one. Take a room air-cleaner with ion generator( mine is made by TRION , about 1 foot by 1 foot by 4 inches). Place on top of this unit a common small fan-cum-heater (Braun?) room unit.With the fan UNPLUGGED, run the air-cleaner.I got about 300 RPM from the fan!! Since my son serindipidously found this, please refer to this as the 'Alan Soltis Effect'. Jim Soltis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 12:17:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA13236; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 12:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 12:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:14:30 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"c_Jx-3.0.kE3.IIwOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Let me try one more time to get this right (sorry): I just wrote: "If we could instantaneously impose the B field on the compartment when it is in random thermal motion, the total momentum change would occur instantaneously and would be to the left. A right impulse would be transmitted to the magnet via the magnetic field." On further thinking, the above does not appear true. It seems like it would take on average about a half cycle of the cyclotron frequency for each individual particle to reach maximum left-moving momentum. Further, if we assume a uniform mass and charge, thermal random motion, zero total initial system momentum, no collisions, and the field magically imposed at time zero, it is curious that after a complete cycle, or any time time n/f sec. for n integer, f the cyclotron frequency for that particle, each particle momentum should return to the momentum it had at time zero. Thus the particles do not accelerate on average after the maximum cylctron freqency period 1/f occurs. After the start-up of leftwise drift, no net momentum should be transferred to the magnet unless resistance to the drift occurs. The magnet should drift at a constant but glacially slow rate if free to move. However, a field oscillation at the cyclotron frequency f in the vicinity of each particle should occur. This implies that a compartment in a B gradient field should radiate more than a counterpart not in such a field. The radiation should occur in a range determined by max B and min B. This non-symmetry of radiation could be used to discount the 2nd law by providing a means of focusing the radiated energy into the 2nd compartment, and a means in the second compartment for absorbing the radiated energy. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 12:25:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA15528; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 12:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 12:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:26:11 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: When the ions hit the fan Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"n7PjP2.0.So3.5TwOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 2:39 PM 4/27/97, Soltis James Dr. wrote: >Either Frank S or Horace H was looking for a new procrastination source. >Here is one. Take a room air-cleaner with ion generator( mine is >made by TRION , about 1 foot by 1 foot by 4 inches). Place on top of this >unit a common small fan-cum-heater (Braun?) room unit.With the fan >UNPLUGGED, >run the air-cleaner.I got about 300 RPM from the fan!! Since my son >serindipidously found this, please refer to this as the 'Alan Soltis >Effect'. Jim Soltis The TRION probably creatres an ionic wind (or maybe has a fan inside?) This creates a vacuum at the air intake of the trion and pressure increase at the air outlet of the trion. This would create a wind across the top of the trion. Do you think such a wind accounts for the motion? Another at least partial explanation is that the TRION has a transformer radiating electromagnetic fields. The fan motor windings and/or magnetic core material couple to the transformer (even without a closed circut) and drive the fan motor. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 13:55:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA28195; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 13:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 13:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970427134553.00a6770c mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 13:45:55 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Parametric comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"s4aX5.0.Tu6.YixOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On http://members.aol.com/overunity/html/paraintr.htm you write: >"One knows that there is energy stored in this inductance of magnitude 1/2 LI*2 and if this >inductance is now increased in some manner, such as by inserting an iron core into L >(while holding I constant). then the stored electrical energy is increased. In this instance, >the mechanical energy required to insert the iron core and thus increase L, has been transformed >into stored electrical energy" Wrong !!! No mechanical energy input is required to insert the iron core into the inductor, BECAUSE iron core is attracted by the inductor itself, thus NO MECHANICAL ENERGY NEEDS TO BE EXPENDED !!! I would instead concentrate on the statement "...while holding I constant.." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 14:48:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA23139; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 14:46:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 14:46:09 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970427144602.00a68758 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 14:46:03 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: 0.5LI^2 or not ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"kZsa8.0.Pf5.WayOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What do you think of this thought experiment? An air core inductor (coil) with inductance [L] and DC resistance [R] is supplied with electric current [I] by a power supply. The power supply is then DISCONNECTED and the inductor short circuited. * The electric current [I] circulates through the inductor creating magnetic field * The energy stored in the inductor equals [0.5LI^2] * This energy will be dissipated as heat in the resistance [R] of the inductor's windings at a rate [L/R] Thus if resistance [R] of the inductor's windings is zero (as in superconductor) the electric current will circulate forever in the inductor and will NEVER be dissipated. The energy stored in such an inductor with [R=0] will always be equal to [0.5LI^2] Now, if a non-conductive ferromagnetic material with high magnetic permeability is introduced to the space in proximity to our energized air core inductor (coil), then this ferromagnetic material will experience magnetic attraction toward the inductor (coil). The approach of this ferromagnetic material will increase the inductance [L] of our inductor because the permeability of the ferromagnetic material is much higher than the permeability of air. (>10,000) The increasing inductance [L] will cause the electric current [I] to decrease in such a way that the product [0.5LI^2] will be equal before and after the approach of the ferromagnetic material towards the coil. The final result will be that ferromagnetic material will be attracted closer to the inductor and the current circulating in the inductor will decrease in order to compensate for its increasing inductance [L]. Do you agree with the above thought experiment ??? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 15:47:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA11415; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:37:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: hheffner corecom.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 14:42:05 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Basics of grad B drift attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"roxOf3.0.Go2.lKzOp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To disprove the 2nd law it is only necessary to show that grad B drift can generate any potential whatsoever across a cell containing ions. However, the fundamental question regarding practical use or even an experimental test is the question of whether grad B drift (gbd) cells can be put in series, or alternatively made long, in order to increase the total electrostatic potential achievable at a given temperature. The magnetic field does not add energy to the ions. The kinetic energy of the ions is there initialy only in the form of heat. The magnetic field gradient only serves to organize things. Since 1 eV = 11,600 deg. K, at 270 K the average ion should have a kinetic energy of about 0.0233 eV. This means that a maximum cell potential is about 0.023 V if the full kinetic energy of the average ion is to be sapped before reaching the cell boundaries in the course of overcoming a reverse field gradient E (difficult!). This cell operating voltage of 0.0233 V requires that a minimum of about 26 cells must work in series at 270 K to produce a meaningful potential of about 0.6 V to do electrolysis, for example. Of interest is the fact that faster moving ions should drift faster than slow ones. This implies that, in the case of an electolyte medium, that a thermal gradient might be established. It should be coldest in the middle of the cell, warmest near the right and left boundaries in a cell with the magnetic gradient bottom to top as in our examples. However, in a cell with both positive and negative ions flowing, the thermal gradient tends to balance except at the cell boundaries. This implies that the ions can creep toward the cell boundaries in small increments. That is to say the following stagewise process would be repeated: (1) the drift causes motion against the field gradient and a loss of kinetic energy. (2) collisions cause, on average, a restoration of kinetic energy (3) the drift repeats. In other words, fast moving (hot) particles tend to drift in their own direction faster than slow (cold) ones tend to fall back. The above seems to imply that, provided the heat is continually replenished, say from the top and bottom sides of the cell via a heat conduit to compartment B, that large electrostatic potentials, like 0.6 V, can be achieved by making the gbd cells sufficiently long or by placing a sufficient number in series (provided there is a viable means of charge exchange at the right and left boundaries). Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 16:04:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA32500; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:59:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:59:05 -0700 Message-Id: <3363A4C1.5010 mail.halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 12:10:57 -0700 From: "Fred B. Epps" Organization: Pegasus Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: How did the Hendershot Device work? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"M8HYP3.0.gx7.tezOp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Good People, I must apologize for the length of this email... HOW DID THE HENDERSHOT DEVICE WORK? In this analysis of how the Hendershot machine might have worked, I will make certain simplifying assumptions. First, I assume you are familiar with the circuit diagram and construction features of the Hendershot device. If not, you can find this information at I also assume the device can be analyzed as two parts, the coil/capacitor assembly and the "clapper" resonant circuit. The coil/capacitor (CC) is my major focus here, but I will point out later how the resonant energy-storing principle is essential to the operation of the device. THE COIL/CAPACITOR In examining the CC assembly we find a very interesting component that is quite likely to create overunity performance if used properly. (The basket-weave coil consists of braided windings over a modified electrolytic capacitor). It is common sense that the capacitor and coil are intended to interact. The question is, what is the nature of that interaction? Logically, there are three possibilities: 1) The coil affects the capacitor, but not the reverse. 2) The capacitor affects the coil, but not the reverse. 3) The coil affects the capacitor, and the reverse. I reject option 2 because there is no element in the coil that can be affected by a changing electric field in the capacitor. I reject option 3 because no true overunity device can be reciprocal-- it must be nonreciprocal. A reciprocal or 'two-way" device must always load the input and cause power loss at the input equivalent to the power gain. Let me explain what I mean by "reciprocal". Most systems that are encountered in everyday life and engineering practice are reciprocal in nature. What this means is that the energy relations are reversible. A good example is EM induction, where if the output of a motor becomes the input, the motor becomes a generator, and the energy relationship is reversed without being changed. This is an extension of Newton's law of action and reaction. It has been proven (1) that certain systems are nonreciprocal, that is, the outputs cannot be made inputs. It has also been proven (2) that any nonreciprocal device with electrical inputs and outputs must contain a magnetic field. The magnetic field has the property of changing the direction of applied forces without doing work-- this is essential to these types of systems. In nonreciprocal systems the output does not load the input. Imperfect, lossy nonreciprocal devices can be constructed in many forms, among them gyroscopes, gyrators, ferromagnetic amplifiers, microwave phase shifters, and Hall effect devices. Only the first option is capable of creating overunity performance: there must be a one-way interaction between the magnetic field of the coil and the capacitor. Otherwise the magnetic field must be loaded in some way, either inductively or parametrically, and the coil will lose energy. For there to be no losses in the core, it must 'see' the capacitor as basically an air core with an unvarying u of 1. THE COIL There are three ways to look at the braided windings of the coil: 1) They are inductive. In this case the braiding is not intended to reduce flux and there is considerable flux inside the capacitor. The operating principle involves standard magnetic fields. 2) They are noninductive. The flux is essentially prevented from entering the capacitor. The operation involves the magnetic vector potential. 3) They are both inductive and noninductive. I am not equipped to analyze the noninductive (scalar) aspects of the coil (perhaps Bob Shannon would like to look at that). I don't believe that it is necessary to invoke scalar fields to explain its operation. Thus I make the further, possibly incorrect, assumption that the coil uses only standard magnetic fields. THE COIL/CAPACITOR INTERACTION How might the magnetic field of the coil interact with the capacitor? At the risk of boring "old hands" I think it necessary to explain the action of an electroytic capacitor to show how this might happen. An electrolytic capacitor has an extra layer of liquid or solid electrolyte between one of the plates and the dielectric. This layer has two main functions-- it provides better contact between the metal and the dielectric, and seals tiny holes that form in the dielectric by electrical action. A liquid dielectric such as used in the Hendershot device has interesting electrical properties. It has a high dielectric coefficient k , as well as ionic conduction (3). Since obviously the ionic content has something to do with the value of k, and since moving ions are subject to Lorentz forces over their free path, it seems at least possible that a magnetic field through the coil would change the value of k and thus the C of the capacitor. I do not know enough chemistry to describe all the details but I have posted material on the magnetovoltiac effect and the experiments of Weiss who showed that magnets will affect the chemical and thus electrical conditions in wet cells. Hall effects exist in electrolytes (have to find the ref.) The particular mechanism that is involved need to be determined by experiment. I think it will prove to be an ionic Hall effect, but it might be scalar or something else. I am not as focussed on the specific mechanism of interaction as that there IS a one-way interaction where L changes C without C changing L. This is a nonreciprocal system. You may be familiar with the experiments that Jean-Louis Naudin and I are doing with varactors. These APPEAR nonreciprocal at the voltage levels we are using because the output voltage is not high enough to appreciably affect the control voltage. At higher output voltages the device goes into nonlinear operation (frequency doubling mode). This mode does affect the input, sometimes cancelling the control voltage, so it is definitely not a nonreciprocal sytem. Also, keep in mind the existing proof that all electrical nonreciprocal systems must contain a magnetic field. Hendershot's coil/capacitor appears to be a true nonreciprocal system. The theorems for nonreciprocality were proven for a low-frequency system consisting of an electromagnetic transducer mechanically coupled to an electrostatic or piezoelectric transducer. The general form of these devices is "magnetic--mechanical or material coupling--electric". Hendershot's device fits this pattern well, being "magnetic induction--mechanical properties of ions--capacitance". RESONANCE Nonreciprocal systems are usually lossy, although some microwave ferrite systems can operate with very low insertion loss. How does such a system go overunity? Through resonance. Remember that the nonreciprocal system by definition does not load the input. It cannot change the input in any way, so whatever state the input was in at the beginning of the process is the same state its in at the end of the process. If the input is a resonant circuit, only the electrical losses in the input need be considered because we can ignore the output by definition. The fact that power is being transferred to a load through the nonreciprocal element cannot influence the operation of the circuit. At a certain Q in the input circuit and at a certain level of loss in the noreciprocal element, the circuit will go overunity. It should be pointed out that the output in Hendershot's device was due to variation of the capacitance in the CC assembly and thus drove the output circuits parametrically. This is why his circuit required constant tuning. The Mathieu equations for parametric oscillations have many areas of instability for different ranges of frequency and power. These considerations allow for the design of many types of overunity system in many media. Everything from purely mechanical devices like gyroscopes to solid-state ceramic resonators could be called into play. They also allow us to understand, predict, and duplicate the operation of devices like the Testatika and the Hendershot device. I would be happy to discuss building projects with anyone who is interested. Fred Epps Refs: 1) "Violation Of The Reciprocity Theorem In Linear Passive Electromechanical Systems" by Edwin McMillan, J. Acous. Soc. Am. (18), 344 (1946) "Coordinates And The Reciprocity Theorem In Electromechanical Systems" by John W. Miles, J. Acous. Soc. Am. (19), 910 (1947) 2) "Reciprocal Relations In Irreversible Processes I, II" by Lars Onsager, Phys. Rev. (37) , pp. 405-426 (1931) Some Aspects Of Onsager's Theory Of Reciprocal Relations In Irreversible Process" by H.B.G. Casimir, Nuovo Cimento Suppl. (6), pp. 227-231 (1949) 3) Electrolytic Condensers, by Philip Coursey, Chapman and Hall, 1937 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 16:29:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA04601; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:27:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:27:37 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Direct Acting Electrical Discharge Engine? Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 23:26:55 +0000 Message-ID: <19970427232653.AAA5142 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"3dcjq.0.p71.e3-Op" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: When I did the arc to lithium hydroxide saturated water in the early 1970's and got a very rapid pressure rise that shut off the 15 Kilovolt 60 milliampere A.C. discharge and like to blown the lid off the 12 inch diameter stainless steel pressure cooker, I had no inkling of the Hydrino concept and the possibility of the Hydrino energy multiplication and possibly the reaction; hydrino + 3 Li-7 = 2 He-4 + 17.6 Mev. I figured that the 900 joules(?) going into the air-vapor space above the liquid did the work. Never did any calorimetry to see for sure. Now, with ceramic cylinder heads-blocks and pistons, it might be worth taking a look at this for designing a steam-stirling engine? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 17:56:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA27059; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 17:53:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 17:53:29 -0700 From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Direct Acting Electrical Discharge Engine? Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 18:49:55 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19970428005345420.AAA112 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"B9h1t.0.fc6.8K_Op" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: ---------- > When I did the arc to lithium hydroxide saturated water in the > early 1970's and got a very rapid pressure rise that shut off the > 15 Kilovolt 60 milliampere A.C. discharge and like to blown the lid > off the 12 inch diameter stainless steel pressure cooker, I had no > inkling of the Hydrino concept and the possibility of the Hydrino > energy multiplication and possibly the reaction; > hydrino + 3 Li-7 = 2 He-4 + 17.6 Mev. > > I figured that the 900 joules(?) going into the air-vapor space above > the liquid did the work. Never did any calorimetry to see for sure. --------------------- The BLP process depends very specifically and critically on the correct "energy holes" to catalyze the reaction and potassium carbonate seems to be the favored one in aqueous systems. For an extensive discussion of anomalous forces appearing in arcs and arcs in aqueous systems, see Newtonian Electrodynamics, by the Graneaus. I have been reading it, and it is meaty with experimental results and closely reasoned mathematical analysis. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 18:52:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA08484; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 18:50:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 18:50:19 -0700 Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 18:50:14 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Science Fair Transmutation In-Reply-To: <3357FBF3.3253 math.ucla.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8wCQJ3.0.U42.Q90Pp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Barry Merriman wrote: > The Texas regional competition was a few days ago. I was told > that she did not place at all. It seems that for this level of > competition, each student had to interview with an examiner. > In her case, the examiner told her in effect that transmuting > lead into gold was impossible, and someone would have already > gotten a nobel prize for it if it were. Thus her project was > discmissed, without any detailed consideration. Depressing, but not unexpected. I hope she was coached to be ready for this sort of reaction. Anything less would have been cruel. Does this mean that her lessons are: 1. Textbooks lie. The important part of a Science Fair project is not the proper performing of experiments, taking of data, and presenting results. The important thing is to obtain the right answer. 2. If you want to succeed in science (i.e. pass peer review, obtain funding), you must stay with the "herd", avoiding unconventional fields as if your career depended on it. 3. Transmutation might be real and easily achieved. The reaction of her reviewer is sufficient explanation for why no one yet has the Nobel for it. 4. Students (and amateurs) should approach *real* science with extreme caution. Should they stray into a taboo research area, they won't have a prayer of defending positive results against unfair moves by authority. A very educational project. Seriously. Too bad there's no way for more students to benefit from her experience. If enough young scientists recognized and abhorred this side of the politics, after a few generations the situation might change. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 19:02:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA09237; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 19:00:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 19:00:24 -0700 Message-Id: <3363CF7A.4DFD mail.halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:13:14 -0700 From: "Fred B. Epps" Organization: Pegasus Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: H2 from permanent magnets Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UYxXo1.0.FG2.tI0Pp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Jorg, I'm surprised that no one on this thread has discussed the original experiments done by Felix Ehrenhaft on magnetolysis of water. He showed through well-controlled experiments that this could be done. He interpreted his results in terms of the existence of magnetic monopole currents. He found that his magnets demagnetized slowly while this porcess was going on. The amount of hydrogen released was small, certainly not enough for commercial or domestic purposes. If you're looking for a good overunity H2 patent I recommend the Andrija Puharich's water-cracking patent. I don't have these refs handy but I will get them for you if you want. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 19:09:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA06447; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 19:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 19:00:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Direct Acting Electrical Discharge Engine? Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:59:25 +0000 Message-ID: <19970428015923.AAA13224 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"qzqoM3.0.ea1.AJ0Pp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:49 PM 4/27/97 +0000, Mike Carrell wrote: >Frederick Sparber wrote: >---------- >> When I did the arc to lithium hydroxide saturated water in the >> early 1970's and got a very rapid pressure rise that shut off the >> 15 Kilovolt 60 milliampere A.C. discharge and like to blown the lid >> off the 12 inch diameter stainless steel pressure cooker, I had no >> inkling of the Hydrino concept and the possibility of the Hydrino >> energy multiplication and possibly the reaction; >> hydrino + 3 Li-7 = 2 He-4 + 17.6 Mev. >> >> I figured that the 900 joules(?) going into the air-vapor space above >> the liquid did the work. Never did any calorimetry to see for sure. >--------------------- >The BLP process depends very specifically and critically on the correct >"energy holes" to catalyze the reaction and potassium carbonate seems to be >the favored one in aqueous systems. > >For an extensive discussion of anomalous forces appearing in arcs and arcs >in aqueous systems, see Newtonian Electrodynamics, by the Graneaus. I have >been reading it, and it is meaty with experimental results and closely >reasoned mathematical analysis. > >Mike Carrell > Thanks, Mike. I have a very large fireplace and lots of potassium carbonate easily gotten by letting the wood ashes soak in a bucket of water and pouring off the liquid which is mostly potassium carbonate. This is also a catalyst of choice for hydrolysis of biomass to synthesis gas. Throw some lime on it and it goes to calcium carbonate and KOH. Them pilgrims were on to more than they knew maybe? Soft soap too! :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 19:42:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA17189; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 19:39:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 19:39:31 -0700 Message-Id: <3363D8A0.3A5 mail.halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:52:16 -0700 From: "Fred B. Epps" Organization: Pegasus Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: wild and creepy idea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yOfJw3.0.RC4.Xt0Pp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello Hugh and others, I have not been following the "creepy' thread too closely so I may be way off base here, but I'll throw my two cents in anyway. Did anyone read my post on the Corbino effect? It is a bulk metal Hall effect (shows up in Bismuth most strongly). A current can be generated by the Corbino effect by a DC magnetic field varying between 0 and 800 gausses (for Bi). This current arises from the Lorentz effect in a Bismuth disc with electrodes on the center and periphery. The Hall and Corbino effects are nonreciprocal processes-- there is no back reaction from the current in the disc to the magnetic field that produced it (look at my post today on how the Hendershot device worked). The disc does not load the magnet, so if the magnet is an inductor in a resonant circuit it will experience only the resistive losses typical of such circuits. At the proper frequency of operation the disc should put out more energy than is being used to maintain the resonance in the primary. Also: > How to test? Plasmas require lots of energy to maintain, so maybe produce > too much noise. Electrolyte, may be a possibility, but the ions are > massive and highly confined. A superconductor seems like the logical How about an ionic conductor? A piece of B-alumina ceramic will easily conduct sodium ions. I had suggested this before on the list as a way of creating a centrifugal current (Tolman effect) that would be many magnitudes larger than those generated by the mass of an electron. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 19:58:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA13177; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 19:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 19:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33640F9E.1F0D microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:16:54 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Simple OU Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Hrhlf3.0.pD3.R01Pp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I have just finished testing the first rotary version of my "Simple OU Device". The unit will, at present, will not totally self run. If spun by hand and some non moving external components are removed, the unit takes approx 25-30 seconds to stop rotation. If I then insert into place the external non moving components and spin up the rotary assy as before, the unit will spin for 80-90 seconds. As before, no coils, electricity or other conventional energy sources are involved. Frictional losses, at present, are high. I am building another unit with bearings and such. Should work much better. Will keep you informed. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 20:35:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA19729; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3361E632.FBAA0E52 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:25:38 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: When the ions hit the fan X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"g9bb63.0.6q4.7f1Pp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I found an article few minutes ago about Ion Wind as "Theory of an Ion Wind Device" By Robert Seaman Capt. USAF from "http://www.soteria.com/brown/docs/hydrosb.htm" It is written in scientific format and clearly explained. Although Horace's hypothesis is more probable for explaining such a powerful coupling, but any case, there is a theory based on a experiment similar to the "Alan Soltis Effect". Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 27 21:41:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA29750; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970428042523.00667454 sparc1> X-Sender: kennel sparc1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:25:23 +0900 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Elliot Kennel Subject: Re: H gas and film Resent-Message-ID: <"dP28z2.0.iG7.MS2Pp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J Sparber wrote: >> You can check this by putting film above a 3% solution of hydrogen peroxide in a beaker, in a darkened room.<< Frederick, Thanks for your analysis. I have a question, however. My curiosity is piqued by Rout et al, Reproducible Anomalous Emissions from Palladium Deuteride/Hydride, Fusion Technology Vol 30, Nov 96 pp. 273-280. They also considered that hydrogen peroxide is known to expose film. They were able to show that a solution of H2O2 is indeed able to produce a positive result. However, they found that two layers of paper was sufficient to kill the signal, whereas the signal remained in the case of PdD_x. So one might guess that H2O2 might be on the right track, but not sufficient to explain the data. Why did you specify a 3% solution? Is that more effective than a higher concentration? Also, can you think of a reason why peroxide forming from de-gassing palladium might be more penetrating than peroxide evaporating from a water solution? Your insight is most appreciated. Yours truly, Elliot Kennel Sapporo Japan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 00:05:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA23270; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 00:03:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 00:03:10 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 03:03:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970428030302_-1232746873 emout09.mail.aol.com> To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: epitaxy localaccess.com Subject: Re : PARAMETRIC POWER CONVERSION Resent-Message-ID: <"50xMj3.0.Rh5.jk4Pp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 28/04/1997 01:31:38 , Greg Watson wrote : << This statement is incorrect. NO energy is required to insert the iron core into the inductor. It is ATTRACTED into the core and the resultant increased coil energy is pumped back into the power source (coil current drops)! I suggest you rethink the sequence of events thus related to this. >> On 28/04/1997 01:31:38 , Epitaxy wrote : << No mechanical energy input is required to insert the iron core into the inductor, BECAUSE iron core is attracted by the inductor itself, thus NO MECHANICAL ENERGY NEEDS TO BE EXPENDED !!! >> Hi Greg and Epitaxy, I completly AGREE WITH YOU, sorry its a retransciption of the article "The PARAFORMER (TM), "A new passive power conversion device" by Dr S.D.Wanlass and Dr L.K. Wanlass", I have changed this part with your comment today.... Thanks for your comments, .... If you are interested to write some additionals comments about theory on this subject, simply send it to me and I put this in my web server. Nice to speak with you soon, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager, UIN: 747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 00:35:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA19844; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 00:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 00:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 23:37:07 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: wild and creepy idea Resent-Message-ID: <"PWNyP1.0.-r4.NA5Pp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:52 PM 4/27/97, Fred B. Epps wrote: [snip] > >How about an ionic conductor? A piece of B-alumina ceramic will easily >conduct sodium ions. I had suggested this before on the list as a way of >creating a centrifugal current (Tolman effect) that would be many >magnitudes larger than those generated by the mass of an electron. > Fred Interesting. Must be a proton conductor then too maybe? Under what conditions does B-alumina ceramic conduct Na? High temperature (e.g. 600 K)? Do you know the conductitvity? Is it simply diffusion? Do you know of a source available for B-alumina ceramic? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 02:09:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA01412; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 02:05:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 02:05:11 -0700 Message-Id: <336432AC.79F mail.halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:16:28 -0700 From: "Fred B. Epps" Organization: Pegasus Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: screwed -up email Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"S758i.0.wL.5X6Pp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I am having trouble with my POP server. I can send mail but can't recieve it (very well). I have just read the messages from today. I am sorry to those who are wondering what happened to me. I'll respond as soon as possible. Fred :--[ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 03:20:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA00333; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 03:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 03:17:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: H gas and film Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:16:17 +0000 Message-ID: <19970428101615.AAA27102 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"Ejp8l2.0.75.na7Pp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:25 AM 4/28/97 +0000, Elliot Kennel wrote: >Frederick J Sparber wrote: > >> You can check this by putting film above a 3% solution of >hydrogen peroxide in a beaker, in a darkened room.<< > >Frederick, > Thanks for your analysis. I have a question, however. My curiosity >is piqued by Rout et al, Reproducible Anomalous Emissions from Palladium >Deuteride/Hydride, Fusion Technology Vol 30, Nov 96 pp. 273-280. They also >considered that hydrogen peroxide is known to expose film. They were able to >show that a solution of H2O2 is indeed able to produce a positive result. >However, they found that two layers of paper was sufficient to kill the >signal, whereas the signal remained in the case of PdD_x. So one might guess >that H2O2 might be on the right track, but not sufficient to explain the >data. Why did you specify a 3% solution? Is that more effective than a >higher concentration? Also, can you think of a reason why peroxide forming >from de-gassing palladium might be more penetrating than peroxide >evaporating from a water solution? > Your insight is most appreciated. > >Yours truly, >Elliot Kennel >Sapporo Japan > Elliot, I chose the 3% H2O2 solutions because of over-the-counter availability at about 40 cents a pint. :-) I used a 35 mm black and white film for my cursory experiments on the response to the vapor above the solution in a beaker in a darkened room. In regard to the two layers of paper, I can only say anecdotally that dilute hydrogen peroxide is used in alkaline solution (pH about 11.5-12) to free cellulose from lignin with little degradation of the cellulose. H2O2 wears two hats. The weak HO-OH bond (0.5 ev?)if not broken renders the peroxide rather inert, but when broken, giving the two OH "free radicals" these are very reactive. In the presence of heavy metals there is a catalytic reaction cycle that you might want to consider: (1) H2O2 + Ag = AgO + H20 + energy, (2) H2O2 + AgO = H2O + O2 + Ag + energy and so on. keeping in mind that these are "noble" metal reactions. Best Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 04:04:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA13296; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 04:03:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 04:03:06 -0700 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:58:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: yr latest idea. Lang. of physics. In-Reply-To: <199704250225.VAA09689 natasha.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"431zf1.0.gF3.fF8Pp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Scott, Its both theory and practise (Without theory, without an approach). The maths crowd have knocked physics off kilter. What is the natural language of physics?, there are several:- . The experiment - an experiment communicates. There was a golden age of experiment. Science was practised by all enquiring minds - not just the 'professional' (somehow that word means staid and conservative (pun intended) to me.) . A conceptual model, a little movie in your mind as to how things work - chemist's ball and stick models. They don't have to keep solving Schrodinger's eqn. to make predictions. Besides the bond angles and length could come from crystalographic techniques (experiment) anyway. . Mathematics. Like music, like all forms of language, best mastered early in life or its a bit of a struggle. Horses for courses although it is very precise, concise and unambiguous. I was told that true mathematicians don't think equations. Their first port of call is the conceptual model - little movies in their mind. So they are just like anyone else, except that they've mastered a language. If all journals were in German and you couldn't read German, would that make you a bad scientist? It would hinder you. I support education of higher mathematics at an earlier stage in life. Kids by the time they are seven have already mastered some profound concepts. I also believe in life long education. Also (quoting Evan Soule), it's easy to get 'educated beyond your intelligence'. So you've mastered English Literature say - now go and write a great novel! (Ha! Ha! Intelligencia, we've found you out!) Education isn't ability, it's a chance to develop and show some. . Natural language. What were doing. Not easy, ambiguous. Source of repeated email transmission when idea not received correctly first time. Bare in mind, n.l. is used (and created by) lawyers, politicians, journalists, analysist etc. and to woo the opposite sex! Its inherently devious and open to miss-interpretation. Not really the best tool for science. This no doubt suits the 'policticians of science'. Be bold. Develop your own approach. Do it your way. Then teach 'em. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 04:24:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA04119; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 04:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 04:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:18:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law In-Reply-To: <33611081.4BB4 interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"G2PAn.0.F01.GX8Pp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Francis, It's a rather flippant response to Horace's message. Analyse the problem properly and you will find that the energy input always exceeds what you could obtain from any heat pump effect. The second law is used as a cop-out to serious analysis. I'm telling you!! The 'greats' Brillouin, Nyquist, Bridgeman made one hell of a howler in their 'analysis' of the diode rectifier demon. This is what they did: they assumed the second law was correct and so worked their analysis towards it - QED. It's in the maths, maths never lies so there!! Any electronic engineer can go through their letter and understand the analysis - but its total over kill. This is the politics of science in operation. The great and good do a rather COMPLICATED analysis to prove and result you obviously know experimentally. (The true reason is soooo simple). This says: its over its finished. Don't tread here, WE'VE seen it and WE don't believe you should waste your time here. The INTELLIGENCIA have made a papal bull and you will be got at by the inquisition. No. Think experiment. Think analysis. Most of all, keep an open mind. Yes, if you know something doesn't work and goes against your intuition, why not have the guts to look at it with a fresh set of eyes. Don't take short cuts, don't consult the literature until later - convince yourself of some principle, theory etc. that prevents it from operating. Then think, what if... then new analysis/new experiment. Part of the criticism of the intelligencia is not anger. Simply people don't have time to research every avenue (we only have our three score and ten). Most would probably lead to a blind alley. Wishing you well, Remi. On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > Horace Heffner wrote: > > > The B field would have to a gradient in the direction of the > > primary current flow. Just means making an iron gap appropriately tapered > > in that direction maybe. > > > Yes, Horace. Or, just let two PMs stick together and then tip them > apart to form the wedge. Insert the hall probe in the wedge gap, short > the appropriate output leads together, and watch the icicles form on the > probe! > > Frank S. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 04:44:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA05555; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 04:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 04:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970428044114.00683d70 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 04:41:15 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Parametric processes - error notes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"b9ogo.0.iM1.lp8Pp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is bad news for you since yanking the ferromagnetic core out of the coil INCREASES your supply current if the coil is connected to the power supply that supplies the current to the coil. In case of a closed coil which has the electric current circulating through it WITHOUT an external power supply (yes this is possible !), the action of yanking the core out of the coil will increase the current flowing through the coil and decrease the inductance of the coil accordingly in such a way that the product 0.5LI^2 will be equal BEFORE & AFTER the "yanking" ! Theoretically, if the closed coil has no electrical resistance (as in a superconducting coil) the electric current circulating through it will continue FOREVER since there is no resistance to dissipate it as heat (I^2R) For the uninitiated the I means current the L means inductance and the expression 0.5LI^2 means the energy stored in the coil. This may sound as bad news to you, but upon deeper consideration it is NOT ! At 03:04 PM 4/27/97 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Tim and all, > >> I said: >> >> The way to get more electrical power like this is to yank the core >> >>out of the coil while it has current flowing through it. This will >> >>produce an EMF in the same direction as the original current flow. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 06:33:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA16732; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 06:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 06:30:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704280824.ZM1914 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:24:34 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" "Direct Acting Electrical Discharge Engine?" (Apr 27, 6:22pm) References: <19970427232653.AAA5142 LOCALNAME> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Direct Acting Electrical Discharge Engine? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"1GMdx2.0.L54.3QAPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 27, 6:22pm, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > When I did the arc to lithium hydroxide saturated water in the > early 1970's and got a very rapid pressure rise that shut off the > 15 Kilovolt 60 milliampere A.C. discharge and like to blown the lid > off the 12 inch diameter stainless steel pressure cooker, I had no > inkling of the Hydrino concept and the possibility of the Hydrino > energy multiplication and possibly the reaction; > hydrino + 3 Li-7 = 2 He-4 + 17.6 Mev. > > I figured that the 900 joules(?) going into the air-vapor space above > the liquid did the work. Never did any calorimetry to see for sure. > > Now, with ceramic cylinder heads-blocks and pistons, it might be worth > taking a look at this for designing a steam-stirling engine? :-) I knew someone had something lurking in the depths! 8^) -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 07:45:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA06832; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 07:39:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 07:39:11 -0700 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 14:38:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: WFW->HTML Ant utils Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"1YjdL3.0.cg1.FQBPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo, Me again. Day 'off'. Someone suggested a site where 'ant utilies' provided a WYSIWIG (what you see is what you get) convertor. Trouble is, its not free. Before I part with my money and because the sales patter sounds so convincing, has any one used it? I want to know if:- . Layout and fonts are kept. . Page sizes. . WFW graphics incorporated correctly (auto conv. to gif. then embedded in .htm) . gif images incorporated correctly. Many thanks, Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 08:06:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA10342; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 07:59:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 07:59:20 -0700 Message-Id: <199704281454.KAA03035 dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:02:58 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: wspage dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Beta-Alumina (Was: wild and creepy idea) Resent-Message-ID: <"EvQw-3.0.WX2.7jBPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I briefly discussed the beta-alumina sodium ion/proton conductor in my ICCF-5 paper a couple of years ago. I copy of this is available at ... Fred B. Epps wrote: >>How about an ionic conductor? A piece of B-alumina ceramic will easily >>conduct sodium ions. I had suggested this before on the list as a way of >>creating a centrifugal current (Tolman effect) that would be many >>magnitudes larger than those generated by the mass of an electron. >... >Interesting. Must be a proton conductor then too maybe? Under what >conditions does B-alumina ceramic conduct Na? High temperature (e.g. 600 >K)? Yes sodium beta-alumina is a very good sodium ion conductor (.014/ohm/cm) and there is a structural variant named beta"-alumina (Greek letter beta double prime) which is even better (0.1/ohm/cm) at 25 deg C. Formula (0.84Na2O*0.84MgO*5Al2O3) Both forms undergo rapid ion exchange in concentrated sulfuric or hydrochloric acid. Hydronium beta"-alumin (0.84H2O*0.84MgO*5Al2O3*2.8H2O) is stable up to about 700 deg. C. > Do you know the conductitvity? Proton conductivity of beta"-alumina is 0.005/ohm/cm at 25 deg. C. This is among the highest values of proton conductivity known (at these temperatures). > Is it simply diffusion? No. The author's of the above paper attribute the high conductivity as being due to the crystal's highly two-dimensional structure (this is the connection with my ICCF5 paper. This magnitude of conductivity requires a quantum mechanical "tunnelling" model similar to that used to explain the high proton conductivities of aqueous electrolytes. > Do you know > of a source available for B-alumina ceramic? The above referenced paper gives a recipe: "Single crystals of sodium beta" alumina were grown from a melt of 3r wt. % Na2CO3, 3.2 wt. % MgO, and 62 wt. % Al2O3 by heating the misture in a covered Pt or alpha alumina crucible to 1600 deg. C for 24 hours and cooling to 25 deg. C over 12 hours." If any one knows a commerical source of such crystals I would be VERY interested. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 08:18:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA13242; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:12:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:12:51 -0700 Message-Id: <199704281508.LAA03393 dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:16:33 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: wspage dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Beta-Alumina (Was: wild and creepy idea) Resent-Message-ID: <"LZ7J1.0.qE3.nvBPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I recently wrote: >I briefly discussed the beta-alumina sodium ion/proton conductor in >my ICCF-5 paper a couple of years ago. I copy of this is available at > > Subject: Re: Direct Acting Electrical Discharge Engine? Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:12:28 +0000 Message-ID: <19970428151226.AAA28941 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"ZKH2U3.0.pU.UwBPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:24 PM 4/28/97 +0000, John Steck wrote: > >I knew someone had something lurking in the depths! 8^) > Always the dreamer, John. :-) This morning's notion is that the heat energy from re-entry of the space shuttle could be used for generating thrust reversal instead of hauling that tile weight around. Lithium or NaK picking up the heat and running a plasma "engine" of sorts as opposed to falling like a rock? :-) Regards, Frederick >-- >John E. Steck >Motorola Inc. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 08:41:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA03875; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:24:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704281524.LAA11166 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (soltis@server.uwindsor.ca) Subject: Re: When the ions hit the fan Resent-Message-ID: <"CyS3P3.0.Oy.X5CPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dr. James Soltis (soltis server.uwindsor.ca) said: > Either Frank S or Horace H was looking for a new procrastination > source. Here is one. Take a room air-cleaner with ion generator( > mine is made by TRION , about 1 foot by 1 foot by 4 inches). Place > on top of this unit a common small fan-cum-heater (Braun?) room > unit.With the fan UNPLUGGED, run the air-cleaner.I got about 300 > RPM from the fan!! Nothing new. I've even seen one of these microwave powered and free flying. The ions couple nicely to the air and move it in bulk at relatively low velocity. It is possible to convert more than 50% of the power into thrust. (But I've never seen anyone take the next step, and flow that air over a wing--might make a good science fair project, especially if you could go battery or solar powered.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 08:41:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA20330; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:38:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:38:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3364C47D.4050 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:38:37 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Remi's wild and creepy attack References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Xlp-X3.0.az4.NHCPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remi Cornwall wrote: > > Dear Francis, > > It's a rather flippant response to Horace's message. (Remi refers to my flippant remark about icicles forming on a hall probe from the grad-B drift effect.) Remi, about half of my responses to Horace are flippant! However, right after I posted my flippant remark, I went to my shop and tried Horaces's idea with "sodium chloride solution in a plastic tube between two ceramic magnets with gold plated electrodes in each end of the tube." As it turned out, I got a persistant ~20 > 30 microvolt reading that I attributed to some electrochemical imbalance. The wedge magnets seemed to have no effect on the emf. So, I chalked it up as "inconclusive" - not as killing off Horace's idea! I find that Horace is quite capable of defending his ideas from my flippant remarks, so I go on playing the "flippant fool" (hey, that would make a good handle!) and goading Horace on his ideas. Actually, I get most of my ideas for future "amateur science activity" from Horace's posts - he (as do YOU ALL) has my utmost respect! Hey, Remi, was there a "bad side of the bed" involved here today? Now! I'm just joking! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 09:21:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA12454; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:06:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Remi's wild and creepy attack In-Reply-To: <3364C47D.4050 interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"UQE9t.0.W23.5jCPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry Francis! Just when I create time to do work - I have to administrate. Regarding the Under Entropy Fools (u/e) of which I am a member - wait to my paper comes out in IE13. I find it hard to communicate without diagrams. I believe I've cracked it - I have a theory and a principle to say that spontaneous or o/u (hence u/e) heat pumps are possible. It requires no fancy maths (that's in my other papers) and the theoreticians can quibble over it - I'll just do the experiments. In the next few weeks I have to visit my patent agent to extend the patent's life. This will involve patent searching etc. and will once again take me away from experiments... but not for long I hope. I believe the theory is so simple you're gonna like the sales patter. Wishing you well, Remi. ..................................................... It was 'proved' impossible to fly early this century Seems that you can prove what you want to believe... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 09:34:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA16244; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:25:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Beta-Alumina Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:24:32 +0000 Message-ID: <19970428162430.AAA234 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"5bpFB.0.jz3.I-CPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bill Page's post on low temperature high conductivity beta"-alumina struck a chord on a thermo-electric power system that was in the works in the late sixties. Seems that lithium and tin form a compound that will develop about 0.25 volts when they form the intermetallic compound, (Li)x(Sn)y Since tin has such a low vapor pressure (very high boiling point)heat was going to be used to decompose the LiSn compound and literally boil off the lithium to let the two recombine using a solid "beta-alumina" solid electrolyte thus setting up a cycle (TRGC, thermally regenerative galvanic cell). I worked on this with Elton Cairns at Argonne Labs, with the intent for it to be used in the space program. Don't know how far it got since then. Might be even more promising with the low temp beta-aluminas. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 11:13:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA20670; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:59:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:59:46 -0700 Message-Id: <199704281755.NAA04539 dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 14:03:25 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: wspage dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Tolman effect ionic current generator (Was: wild and creepy idea) Resent-Message-ID: <"zmakp3.0.o25.HMEPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:52 PM 4/27/97, Fred B. Epps wrote: >... >How about an ionic conductor? A piece of B-alumina ceramic will easily >conduct sodium ions. I had suggested this before on the list as a way of >creating a centrifugal current (Tolman effect) that would be many >magnitudes larger than those generated by the mass of an electron. Yes. An interesting idea. Suppose we mounted beta"-alumina crystals radially on a disk and spun it (at what rate?) in a low pressure hydrogen atomosphere. Initiate a low voltage hydrogen discharge from a cathode placed near the center of the disk (electrons -> cathode, H+ -> cyrstal). And re-introduce the electrons at an anode placed around the circumference of the disk. ----------------------------------------------------- | | | <------------- | | === anode | hydrogen | | | | gas | | spinning | | | | disk | | | | | +++ | | | motor =====||--------> pulsed current source | | | cathode | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | === anode | | | <------------- | | | ----------------------------------------------------- Now hydrogen ion current is driven by the Tolman effect, but we can control the hydrogen ion current (flux) in the alumina crystals by pulsing the external current. Is excess heat generated via induced non-conservative phase changes in the crystals as the ion flux is varied? [Yes, we still all have our own favorite "CF" theories. ] Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 11:36:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA30286; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:33:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:33:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199704281833.LAA30219 mx1.eskimo.com> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:40:31 +0200 X-Sender: biberian mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Biberian Subject: Re: H gas and film Resent-Message-ID: <"Dzl3a.0.8P7.MsEPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott little wrote >It seems likely to me that H atoms emerging from the Pd bulk would tend to >adhere to the Pd surface until another H atom emerged nearby. Then the two >would merge into a molecule and detach from the Pd. If this is correct, >there would be essentially no atomic H near an outgassing Pd sample. > That is correct. Actually one way of preventing deloading of palladium is to block some of the surafce atomic sites with molecules like CO or sulfur. The H atom that migrate at the surface cannot recombine to form hydrogen molecules, since" they cannot sit in adjascent sites, and therefore they stay at the surface preventing more diffusion from the bulk. Jean-Paul Biberian ******************************** Jean-Paul Biberian E-mail : biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr tel: (33) 491 72 35 45 (33) 476 82 67 51 ******************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 11:48:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA31796; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:42:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:42:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3364EFB8.296F interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 14:43:04 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Remi's wild and creepy attack References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"g9ku43.0.gm7.L-EPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remi Cornwall wrote: > (snip) > I believe the theory is so simple you're gonna like the sales patter. > When it's ready, Remi, "bring it on down!" - we'll be waiting. The Flippant Fool - Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 12:38:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA15995; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:31:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: naps: Host server.campus.uwindsor.ca claimed to be server.uwindsor.ca Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:28:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Soltis James Dr." To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: When the ions hit the fan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"VmJYf3.0.pv3.ViFPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, Horace Heffner wrote: > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:26:11 -0800 > From: Horace Heffner > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: When the ions hit the fan > > At 2:39 PM 4/27/97, Soltis James Dr. wrote: > >Either Frank S or Horace H was looking for a new procrastination source. > >Here is one. Take a room air-cleaner with ion generator( mine is > >made by TRION , about 1 foot by 1 foot by 4 inches). Place on top of this > >unit a common small fan-cum-heater (Braun?) room unit.With the fan > >UNPLUGGED, > >run the air-cleaner.I got about 300 RPM from the fan!! Since my son > >serindipidously found this, please refer to this as the 'Alan Soltis > >Effect'. Jim Soltis > > > The TRION probably creatres an ionic wind (or maybe has a fan inside?) > This creates a vacuum at the air intake of the trion and pressure increase > at the air outlet of the trion. This would create a wind across the top of > the trion. Do you think such a wind accounts for the motion? > > Another at least partial explanation is that the TRION has a transformer > radiating electromagnetic fields. The fan motor windings and/or magnetic > core material couple to the transformer (even without a closed circut) and > drive the fan motor. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > Perhaps what is interesting is (a) Is this just related to air-pressure effects. (b) Is this inductive-coupling between the systems. (c) Is this predominately an ion-wind (electrostatics) effect. A good science-fair project to work it all out. Lots of physics at low cost, Jim Soltis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 16:06:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA00974; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:35:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:35:36 -0700 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:35:15 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: Greg Watson cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device In-Reply-To: <33640F9E.1F0D microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"KAQOk1.0.7F.rOIPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > If spun by hand and some non moving external components are removed, the > unit takes approx 25-30 seconds to stop rotation. > > If I then insert into place the external non moving components and spin > up the rotary assy as before, the unit will spin for 80-90 seconds. > > As before, no coils, electricity or other conventional energy sources > are involved. > Greg: while it might take a moment or two to add, I HIGHLY Recommend the addition of a "BRAKEing System" to your device... optimistically, so when it does 'work' or 'take-off'... you will have a way to control the run-a-way. Good Luck... we enjoy the posting updates.. ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2 freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 16:24:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA11551; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:19:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:19:48 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:24:35 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Science Fair Transmutation Resent-Message-ID: <"4UpJn1.0.5q2.I2JPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 6:50 PM 4/27/97, William Beaty wrote: >On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Barry Merriman wrote: > [snip] > >A very educational project. Seriously. Too bad there's no way for more >students to benefit from her experience. If enough young scientists >recognized and abhorred this side of the politics, after a few generations >the situation might change. > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 Maybe an annual award would help. Lots of possible names to preceed "Science Award": Herdthink Mindlock Lemming Nazi Not-Sci Dunderhead, Gufus, Dunce, Blockhead, Pighead, etc. Intractable Creedential (spelling intentional) Regressive Pertinacious Brain Dead Mulish PC Indolent Neanderthal Nausiating Reactionary Senseless Testless Evidence Free Skeptic Test Free Anti- Establishment Gestapo Mythological or some combination of the above, or maybe the "Thought Police Award"? Maybe the winner and top nominee names would be presented on the Dave Letterman Show? Or, the award could simply be anounced in the sci. groups. The Texas A&M Chemistry Depart seems like a natural nominee - maybe that department includes the science fair judge? No fair - he would get two nominations! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 16:24:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA11593; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:19:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:19:54 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:24:38 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Hello Bill Page! Resent-Message-ID: <"SYIxb3.0.bq2.J2JPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:03 PM 4/28/97, Bill Page wrote: [snip] > >Is excess heat generated via induced non-conservative phase changes >in the crystals as the ion flux is varied? [Yes, we still all have >our own favorite "CF" theories. ] > >Cheers, >Bill Page. Hello Bill, Thanks for the info. Nice to see you back! Yes, some things never change, or change so slowly it's hard to notice the difference! 8^) I wonder if the Fusion Thought Police got to the ICCF archives? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 16:24:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA11656; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:20:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:20:02 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:24:41 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: When the ions hit the fan Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"aZktu3.0.sq2.L2JPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 3:28 PM 4/28/97, Soltis James Dr. wrote: [snip] >Perhaps what is interesting is >(a) Is this just related to air-pressure effects. >(b) Is this inductive-coupling between the systems. >(c) Is this predominately an ion-wind (electrostatics) effect. >A good science-fair project to work it all out. > Lots of physics at low cost, Jim Soltis Yes, great idea. If you should happen to figure out how to make it go when both devices are unplugged please post the info here first! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 16:26:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA11751; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:20:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:20:12 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:24:44 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Remi's wild and creepy attack Resent-Message-ID: <"lkjBp3.0.Nt2.f2JPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:38 AM 4/28/97, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > >Remi, about half of my responses to Horace are flippant! However, right >after I posted my flippant remark, I went to my shop and tried Horaces's >idea with "sodium chloride solution in a plastic tube between two >ceramic magnets with gold plated electrodes in each end of the tube." >As it turned out, I got a persistant ~20 > 30 microvolt reading that >I attributed to some electrochemical imbalance. The wedge magnets >seemed to have no effect on the emf. So, I chalked it up as >"inconclusive" - not as killing off Horace's idea! Hey, now *that's* interesting! Even if the magnet *is* irrelevent. Do you have a micro-ammeter? Would be interesting to see if it can generate a current, and how long. Also interesting to see if potential reverses upon reversing leads (to eliminate meter as source.) I haven't been much interrested in low electrolytic potentials until thinking about the grad B cell lately. I've run into similar problems from fingerprints and other dirt (I have assumed.) and ignored them. You never know when serendipity might knock. For example, the effect might be due to a difference in electrode areas, or differences in the gold/copper boundaries on the two electrodes. I've wondered if a metal/metal boundary might be used to rectify small voltages. Such might resurrect the SLVN. Maybe you have one now? Often when working with electrolytes my DMM would pick up uA current and then I would notice I had it set on AC, so it was picking up house hum. I just went into Anchorage today and stopped by Radio Shack to try pick up a quality microammeter and discovered they had moved or were out of buisiness. I've fried several meters the last month or so using HV. I have some magnets and some flexible tubing set up, with a pump for loading the tubing. I figured on using multiple passes of the same tubing in the B gradient to build voltage. > >I find that Horace is quite capable of defending his ideas from my >flippant remarks, so I go on playing the "flippant fool" (hey, that >would make a good handle!) and goading Horace on his ideas. [snip] > >Frank Stenger Yes, and a little goading can be a good thing. I have always found Frank Stenger's to be benign and helpful. As for a handle, mine may be "flipping fool" if I can't shake my dottering nature when around high voltage experiments. It is always so much safer when two people do such experiments I think. Wish I had a local partner. Best of luck Remi with your 2nd law busting ideas. I think it is just a matter of time before it crumbles. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 17:14:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA26860; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:08:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:08:16 -0700 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:08:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199704290008.UAA12550 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (hheffner@corecom.net) Subject: Re: Science Fair Transmutation Resent-Message-ID: <"TInRr.0.cZ6.llJPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: One of those things you think about well after the right time for the riposte': She should have asked the "scientist" if he was aware of how many Nobel Prizes had been award for transmutation. Depending on how you count, it ranges from a handful to several dozen. (There was a period where a new particle or new element was worth a Nobel.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 17:49:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA02222; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <33654292.46E0 math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:36:34 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Science Fair Transmutation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VGwmG1.0.dY.lBKPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > At 6:50 PM 4/27/97, William Beaty wrote: > >On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Barry Merriman wrote: > > > >[about Transmutation science fair project summarily > > dismissed by the judge] > > > >A very educational project.If enough young scientists > >recognized and abhorred this side of the politics, The one caveat I would insert is that this is a *highschool* science project. Highschools are notorious for having teachers who render their idiosyncratic judgements down unto the students, independent of rational argument, and for having techers that are in fact ignorant of the subjects that they teach. I wouldn't extrapolate lessons learned in "highschool science" to the real scientific world. Real science has a well known mechanism for circumventing the idosyncratic beliefs of its individual practioners. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 18:41:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA11556; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 18:26:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 18:26:25 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:31:22 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Science Fair Transmutation Resent-Message-ID: <"G0uHt2.0.Eq2._uKPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 5:36 PM 4/28/97, Barry Merriman wrote: [snip] >The one caveat I would insert is that this is a >*highschool* science project. Highschools are notorious >for having teachers who render their idiosyncratic judgements >down unto the students, [snip] >-- >Barry Merriman Aren't Science Fair Judges, especially at a state level, usually from industry and/or Universities? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 19:52:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA21898; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970428223147.00a0a9e0 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:31:49 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Quinney Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"syEIw3.0.1M5.rxLPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts! A Scientific American article in 1953 and circa 1972, in the Amateur Scientist sections, also noted this effect with stretched rubber. The actual effect that was identified with *stretched* elastic material was first discovered by James Prescot Joule in 1850. The Scientific American authors predicted that with a good future design, it might be possible to achieve 5 Horsepower per pound with elastic material and to bring this out of the realm of a toy. They based this on the RPM and actual torque produced from the small mass of elastic bands in the simple elastic band heat engines that they built. Bill's Beaty's design idea of using multiple elastic membranes may be an improved pragmatic direction towards achieving that theoretical goal. One interesting aspect to this kind of engine is that it needn't contain any metallic parts. (Picture a technological society without metal..good plot for a science fiction story....but I digress) Another very interesting feature, and the reason these posts are on Vortex, is that the fuel source can be the *low* grade heat found in anyone's immediate environment. (basically FREE!) The elastic motor was reported to start rotating at a temperature difference of only 3 Celsius degrees, and to start producing useful power at 10 degrees. I built one of these elastic band designs in 1974. The torque was impressive, (I couldn't stop the rotation with both hands), but the RPM's were very low.(~12 RPM.) I believe that the only other engines that can produce useful power at these low temperature differences, are very low pressure giant vessels that contain huge turbines ...for extracting heat from ocean thermal gradients. Very expensive. Millions $$$. I never finished building my own (modestly improved) design, which was similar to Bill's membrane idea below, but if your own design is viable, you will find that the applications are ubiquitous. (and yes, it's a heat engine when cranked!) It almost seems to be the next best thing to perpetual motion... and the neatest thing since the invention of sliced bread, because the energy to run it... is basically free... I've still got the parts laying about for my 1982 un built prototype..... (talk about procrastinating!) Thanks go to Francis and Bill for reminding me to finish one of my unfinished projects 8^) Colin Quinney, Toronto Canada. At 01:28 PM 4/26/97 -0700, Bill wrote: >On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > >> When you stretch the RB to its limit, it gets warm - if you allow it >> to cool while stretched, then relax it, it gets cold. This may be >> normal for ANY elastic substance with this RB effect simply a special >> case. > >Hi Frank! >There was a project article about this in Popular Science around 1972 or >so. Their device looked like a bicycle wheel with rubber bands for spokes. >The bands were connected to an eccentric crank, which supported a >cardboard and foil half-disk sunshade. When hit with a heat lamp, the >bands turned the crank and the sunshade slowly moved in a circle. High >torque, low RPM output. > >I've always been fascinated with this idea, but not enough to get off my >duff and build one! Urethane is a bit less degradable, and seems to >exhibit the same effect. I've always thought that a hot/cold watertank >version would be useful. Extract mechanical work from a solar waterheater >panel. Maybe base the device on a few hundred closely spaced >disk-membranes (like tuning capacitor), the better to couple the rubber to >the water volume. The center of the disks would move when one sector is >heated and another cooled. If this motion, rather than moving a crank >,drove the disks themselves in a circle, they could rotate through a >half-hot, half-cold water tank. A large stack of disks would put out >significant power. And it should be reversible. If the disks were >*driven*, you'd have a mechanical water heater/chiller. > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 21:08:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA15488; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:05:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:05:45 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:05:33 PST8PDT Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <982FE07825 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"BjDkD.0.wn3.OENPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > AT the risk of being repetitious, the following configuration still seems > to demonstrate that the second law would be dead if ambient temperature > were about 1000 K, or even somewhat less. Thanks for spelling out the idea more clearly. It really is a great idea! Why couldn't we use a metal plate with a wire attached at each end as opposed to "chamber A"? Any conductor contains movable charge, right? Thanks again, JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 28 21:26:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA07386; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:17:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Science Fairs Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 23:02:29 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19970429041650959.AAA196 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"LJCUc2.0.Ep1.uONPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have been a judge at local, regional, and international science fairs for a number of years. The upcoming ISEF in St. Louis will be my fourth, and I am a Medals judge at the Delaware Valley Science Fair, which hosts about 500 students and has 500 judges, making it about half the size of the ISEF, which runs 1000 students and as many judges. Delaware Valley will host the ISEF in 1999. The behavior of the judges at Texas is not typical, to refuse entry to a winner at a local fair. At my first ISEF in Birmingham, there was a young man from West Virginia who entered a replication of the P&F experiment without any positive result. In the pre-judging review I found some people snickering at the display and I informed them that the time for sincerking was past. I told Gene about him, and he wrote up his story in an early issue of IE. The scoring is weighted with 30% for creativity, 30% for scientific method, 15% for thoroughness, 15% for skill, and 10% for clarity. Being right, fashionable, or even having a positive result has nothing to do with it. If she made it to the ISEF, I was prepared to become an attack dog to make sure judges did not summarily reject her work, but judge it on its own merits. Judges at these fairs are drawn from local professional people, and they bring their own prejudices. At this spring's fair in the Delaware Valley, during the judges breifing we were told that in the previous year the judges gave no recognition to a certain student because they could not believe that he did the work himself. He was at this year's fair, and I talked to him before the formal judging, and as part of the Medals judging team. We were uanimous in awarding him 1st at the 11th grade level, which carried a full scholarship to Drexel University, as well as a trip to ISEF. What he had done last year was to mount piezoelectric drivers on opposite sides of a small spherical flask filled with water, and demonstrate that he could capture bubbles injected with a hypodermic needle in the resonant modes in the water. This year he upped the power and produced sonoluminescence. He had the notion that one could illuminate living tissue from within using sonoliminescence, but the UV light wouldn't be very visible. So he reasoned that lipids will form cell walls and cavities within cells, so he tried lacing some lipids with fluroescin to utilize the UV light from the sonolouminescence. There are a few things wrong with this scenario, but the range of his conception was head and shoulders above everyone else there. It was very clear that he had done the work himself from what he showed and what he said. The trouble with the judges last year was that the young man exceeded the competence of the judges. He had been to the ISEF in a prior year with a demonstration of magnetic levitation. When I see the quality of the work at the ISEF, I'm glad I have a 50 year head start on these young people. Genetic manipulation is routine, I see it at the regional level now. It appears that the same mindset that attacked Bockris lives on in the Texas science fairs. Anyone want to defend Texas-think? Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 05:06:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA23509; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 05:05:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 05:05:03 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: "CF" Heat and The Stirling Engine Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:04:25 +0000 Message-ID: <19970429120423.AAA28087 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"Dw0eW1.0.Fl5.kFUPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: Seems that the 181 year-old Stirling engine design is just the ticket for conversion of low to high grade heat to shaft power. The websites abound on this technology. Now I know why N.A.S.A. Lewis (Cleveland Ohio)is interested in the OU heat effects from potassium carbonate.Frank Stenger holding back on us? :-) Try, http://powerweb.lerc.nasa.gov/stirling/DOC/stircycl.html and literally dozens of other such sites. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 06:00:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA30760; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 05:59:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 05:59:53 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 05:04:57 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"VPMGm3.0.SW7.83VPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >Thanks for spelling out the idea more clearly. It really is a great >idea! Why couldn't we use a metal plate with a wire attached at each >end as opposed to "chamber A"? Any conductor contains movable >charge, right? >Thanks again, > >JAY OLSON > It does seem like a solid idea from a logical standpoint that if grad B drift exists at all that it is a direct contradiction the 2nd law. May not be a very practical idea, but if the 2nd law has "qualifications" then that certainly can or should change a lot of mindset. One thing that bothers me is the organization that is represented by the magnet. It may be necessary to show that more energy can be extracted from a grad B drift device than is required to make the magnet. A good thought to use a conductor. I have already considered using copper wire for "compartment A" but hestiated posting the thought for some reason. Like the Tygon tubing, it has the advantage of being able to coil to make multiple passes through a magnetic gap to add voltage. I am not sure exactly what form an electron has in a conductor, that it is pointlike. Some theories hold that in metal the electron waveform is not point-like, but distributed thoughout conduction bands. The Hall effect works, but I am not sure grad B drift would occur. Just about anything seems worth a try. Superconducting wire (unfortunately would require liquid helium) is also another thought. A superconducting film ring or coil seems like a good candidate. Again I'm not sure about form of electrons, or electron pairs, and superconductors are further complicated by their sheilding effects - the magnetic field only penetrates to a very shallow depth. To get the grad B effect the charged particles must tend to move in circular manner, with a shorter radius in the higher B field. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 06:46:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA04161; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 06:44:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 06:44:39 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:44:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970429094412_1819413301 emout11.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, 72240.1256@compuserve.com, 76570.2270@compuserve.com, RMCarrell aol.com, 101544.702@compuserve.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, noever@webtv.net, marc.g.millis lerc.nasa.gov Subject: orlando Resent-Message-ID: <"2LM5R2.0.w01.6jVPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> >>American Nuclear Society >>Annual Meeting >>Orlando, Florida >>June 1-5 >>Room Grand XIV >>Session 8.6 >>"Low Energy Nuclear Reactions" >>Panel Session >>Sponsor: Isotopes and Radiation Division >> >> >>The panel will provide 20 minute presentations of their views and research >related to Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR), after which an open >interchange of questions and comments will be held with the audience. LENR >includes possible nuclear reactions in solids loaded with reacting >materials such as hydrogen and deuterium (cf. Cold fusion energy >production, transmutation reactions, and other unique anomalous effects), >as well as effects related to collapse of supercritical bubbles in the >liquid phase in contact with solids. Interest in these areas has >exponentiated following presentations at ICCF-6 (International Conference >on Cold Fusion) in Sapporro, Japan reporting significant nuclear >transmutations of metals by LENR in solids. While still hotly debated, >these results deserve strong consideration by ANS members. >> >>Co-Chairs >>George Miley (Univ. of Illinois) >>Jim Patterson (Clean Energy Technologies) >> >>Panelists >>John O'M Bochris (Texas A&M) >>Lali Chatterjee (Cumberland University) >>Tom Claytor (LLNL) >>Heinz Hora (UNSW) >>Russ George (Pacific Technology) >>John Dash (Portland State University) >>Dennis Cravens (Clean Energy Technologies) >> > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >From g-miley uiuc.edu Sun Apr 27 01:09:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.cso.uiuc.edu (postoffice.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.11]) by mrin58.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-1.0.1) with ESMTP id BAA18922 for ; From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 07:35:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA04718; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 07:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 07:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3366050B.6F22 interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:26:19 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wild and creepy attack. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SDtAn2.0.e91.4KWPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: (snip) > I've wondered if a metal/metal boundary might be used to > rectify small voltages. Such might resurrect the SLVN. Maybe you have one > now? > Could be, Horace, but it may just be nonuniform plating, etc., on the gold-plated banana plugs I used for electrodes. It did indeed generate a small current of a few milliamps - but I really think it was an electrochemical effect. If I get a chance, I'll go back and try various measurements with the same hardware. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 07:44:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA11405; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 07:37:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 07:37:29 -0700 Message-ID: <336607CF.490D interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:38:07 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? References: <3.0.32.19970428223147.00a0a9e0 inforamp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"T6uXM2.0.7o2.eUWPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Quinney wrote: > (snip) > > I've still got the parts laying about for my 1982 un built prototype..... > (talk about procrastinating!) > Very interesting, Colin! Darn, I missed all those good articles on the RB engines. Do you recall what type of elastic bands were found to be best? Bill mentions urethane as being longer lasting. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 07:49:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA06106; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 07:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 07:40:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704290934.ZM7927 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:34:24 -0500 In-Reply-To: Quinney "Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE?" (Apr 28, 9:34pm) References: <3.0.32.19970428223147.00a0a9e0 inforamp.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"Pa_SW3.0.FV1.fXWPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Apr 28, 9:34pm, Quinney wrote: > I built one of these elastic band designs in > 1974. The torque was impressive, (I couldn't stop the rotation with both > hands), but the RPM's were very low.(~12 RPM.) I believe that the only > other engines that can produce useful power at these low temperature > differences, are very low pressure giant vessels that contain huge > turbines ...for extracting heat from ocean thermal gradients. Very > expensive. Millions $$$. The answer is not that complex or expensive. The secret is using a proper gear box setup. The RPM potential is primarily limited by the net torque available. If your device is as strong as you say, I don't think it would be that hard to come up with an ideal ratio of gears to rubberbands to create a limited use prime mover. The calculations get interesting primarily because of the amorphous nature of rubber and that no two bands will ever be identical in strength or endurance. Both the driver and the driven would have to be tolerant of variations in startup input, and degradation of that input over the individual cycle lives of each of the bands. Not good for a heart monitor, but perfectly acceptable for moving air through the ductwork in a house for example. -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 08:02:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA13718; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 07:50:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 07:50:50 -0700 Message-ID: <33660AEE.309D interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:51:26 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law References: <982FE07825 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TBpLX.0.GM3.9hWPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jay Olson wrote: (snip) > Why couldn't we use a metal plate with a wire attached at each > end as opposed to "chamber A"? Any conductor contains movable > charge, right? Good point, Jay! I'm a bit of a dud on solid-state physics, but are not some conductor crystals characterized by having the conduction electrons confined to "planes" between atomic layers of the crystals? It would seem that we need a conduction plane giving the electrons two degrees of linear freedom with the B-field perp. to this plane. Maybe we need single-crystal conductors with the correct orientation - huh Horace, what do you think? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 08:13:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA09464; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33660D6D.3E8 interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:02:05 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: "CF" Heat and The Stirling Engine References: <19970429120423.AAA28087 LOCALNAME> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6TDCH1.0.lJ2.ZrWPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > To Vortex: > > Seems that the 181 year-old Stirling engine design is just the > ticket for conversion of low to high grade heat to shaft power. > Regards, Frederick Very true, Frederick! The air-working-fluid versions tend to be fairly simple engines - especially for low-temp applications. The rubber band engines might have fewer moving parts, but they do have the problem of rubber deterioration. Rubber deterioration is also a problem with my rubber-band slingshots - with which I am somewhat of a marksman, I must say! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 08:38:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA19196; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:30:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:30:23 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704290954.ZM8041 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:54:22 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" ""CF" Heat and The Stirling Engine" (Apr 29, 7:02am) References: <19970429120423.AAA28087 LOCALNAME> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: "CF" Heat and The Stirling Engine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"m97cO2.0.rh4.EGXPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 29, 7:02am, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > Try, http://powerweb.lerc.nasa.gov/stirling/DOC/stircycl.html and > literally dozens of other such sites. :-) Typo in the address, try -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 08:44:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA18897; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:27:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:27:48 -0700 Date: 29 Apr 97 11:25:19 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: H gas and film Message-ID: <970429152519_72240.1256_EHB108-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"3ne692.0.Bd4.oDXPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I came into this discussion late. I must point out some factors that eliminate H gas as the source of artifacts with most CF autoradiographs: 1. Many autoradiographs are made long after the run, with dry, degassed cathodes. The ones from McKubre and Miley fall in this category. 2. At BARC they used electronic detectors and also film, again with dry, degassed cathodes. It is difficult to imagine that a few remaining traces of H in a cathode can spoof electronic instruments as well as film. 3. Positive autoradiographs are correlated with excess heat and helium production. The heat & helium are long gone when the autoradiograph is made. (See point #1.) 4. Usually, a layer of plastic or other material is placed between the cathode and the film to eliminate this sort of thing. I guess it is not a perfect guarantee. Free hydrogen atoms are highly reactive, but I have never heard that they penetrate materials easily. (Helium, on the other hand, penetrates many materials.) 5. As Biberian, Notoya and others have pointed out, free hydrogen atoms on a metal surface don't go anywhere until they form H2. Notoya says that you do not get an Ni CF reaction if you prevent H2 formation. The chemical reaction is somehow closely tied in with the nuclear reaction. I do not find this surprising. 6. M. Miles, in the 1993 J. Electroanal. Chem paper, shows what happens when dental x-ray film is contaminated with chemicals (p. 107). It does not look a bit like exposure to radiation. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 08:45:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA14771; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:38:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:39:58 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? Resent-Message-ID: <"h7GJA3.0.jc3.mNXPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Re speed of elastic medium heat engine: >From the description given, the speed is probably limited by the rate at which heat can diffuse into and out of the elastomer in the cycle. Thermal diffusion (heat conduction) is a rather slow process, and rubber is a poor thermal conductor anyway, so it simply takes time for the heat to get into and out of the bulk of the rubber material to effect the dimensional changes. Power is torque times angular velocity. The only way to speed up the thermal diffusion is to make the rubber thinner. Then, in order to restore torque, one must build several thin-rubber motors together. This of course complicates what began as a simple motor. Put in other terms, this motor does not scale up well. Thermal diffusion also limits the power density of some other non-mainstream motors, for example the Stirling motor. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 09:59:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA26420; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:52:31 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704291652.LAA18534 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H gas and film Resent-Message-ID: <"x8wyK3.0.fS6.oTYPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:25 4/29/97 EDT, Jed Rothwell wrote: >To: Vortex > >I came into this discussion late. Then you probably missed what started it. It was me announcing that Kodak's technical service group has stated that silver halide film will not be exposed by contact with H gas. Thanks for all the other info. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 11:11:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA07390; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: 29 Apr 97 13:59:39 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: H gas and film . . . #6 Message-ID: <970429175939_72240.1256_EHB59-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"waoZM.0.Hp1.KUZPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I forgot to list one other factor that eliminates H gas as the source of artifacts with some CF autoradiographs (just a few, in this case): 6. With some *in situ* experiments, the x-rays cast a shadow of the anode onto the film. H atoms migrating off the metal surface would not carefully side-step the anode! The best example of this is in P. L. Cignini, D. Gozzi, et al., "X-Ray, Heat Excess and 4He in the Electrochemical Confinement of Deuterium in Palladium," Proc. ICCF6, p. 3. There is a detailed explanation and a nice schematic on page 6. This applies to *in situ* experiments. In my previous message I wrote "many autoradiographs are made long after the run . . ." I did not mean they all are. The fact that positive results have been seen with both strengthens the case. Scott Little wrote: It was me announcing that Kodak's technical service group has stated that silver halide film will not be exposed by contact with H gas. Yes, I recall that, but I presume they mean H2 gas . . . not little H-es floating around by themselves. I don't see how they would get far anyway. "H," by the way, means "licentious" in Japanese. pron.: "etchi", abv. "hentai = perverted" Thought y'all could use that information somehow. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 11:50:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA20542; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:43:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:43:29 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:15:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970429141514_1221140558 emout16.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: contact me Resent-Message-ID: <"VsIZp1.0.r05.F5aPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Shurner of Aneotec college. Contact me about a meeting in Dayton next wednsday. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 13:07:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA32733; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:02:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:02:48 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Scudder,Henry J" To: "Francis J. Stenger" , Vortex-L Subject: Re: Wild and creepy attack. Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:00:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"F9os73.0.I_7.eFbPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, Horace You may have just had an antenna picking up and rectifying the ambient RF from TV and radio stations. When I installed a radio in my sailboat, I looked at the antenna voltage in the harbor in Boston, and It read about 1.5 volts, more or less sinewave at about a megaHertz or so on an oscilloscope. Hank Scudder ---------- From: Francis J. Stenger To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wild and creepy attack. Date: Tuesday, April 29, 1997 7:26AM Horace Heffner wrote: (snip) > I've wondered if a metal/metal boundary might be used to > rectify small voltages. Such might resurrect the SLVN. Maybe you have one > now? > Could be, Horace, but it may just be nonuniform plating, etc., on the gold-plated banana plugs I used for electrodes. It did indeed generate a small current of a few milliamps - but I really think it was an electrochemical effect. If I get a chance, I'll go back and try various measurements with the same hardware. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 14:03:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA01044; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:44:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wharton 128.183.251.148 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:43:11 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: Basics of grad B drift attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"i4s201.0.EG.JsbPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To disprove the 2nd law it is only necessary to show that grad B drift can >generate any potential whatsoever across a cell containing ions. However, >the fundamental question regarding practical use or even an experimental >test is the question of whether grad B drift (gbd) cells can be put in >series, or alternatively made long, in order to increase the total >electrostatic potential achievable at a given temperature. The magnetic Horace, I am sorry to tell you that all known charged particle drifts are completely in accord with the 2nd law. To illustrate this one must evaluate the current equation in the presence of particle drift. The current density, J, is given by: J = Sum[ q*n(q)*v(q) + Curl M(q) ] where the sum is over the ion species with charge q , density n(q) , drift velocity v(q) , and induced magnetization M(q) . As it turns out the drift velocity is always given by: v(q) = - Curl M(q)/q*n(q) and the current is always zero. I might suggest reading up on electrodynamics and understanding the Curl M term. Then you could calculate various drift velocities from this equation and see that they agree with the usual result. I believe that whatever drift you try out will agree with the equation, but if not that is a really significant result. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 14:08:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA02534; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: 29 Apr 97 16:52:46 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: contact me Message-ID: <970429205246_76016.2701_JHC85-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Q8yvt3.0.Rd.D0cPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, >>John Shurner of Aneotec college. Contact me about a meeting in Dayton next wednsday.<< In the event that John is not keeping up with the list, you might email him at: John Schnurer Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 15:14:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA12669; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970429175152.007f3510 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 17:51:54 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Quinney Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8r_Rx2.0.r53.KwcPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:39 AM 4/29/97 -0800, Michael J. Schaffer wrote: >Re speed of elastic medium heat engine: >Power is torque times angular velocity. The only way to speed up the >thermal diffusion is to make the rubber thinner. Then, in order to restore >torque, one must build several thin-rubber motors together. This of course >complicates what began as a simple motor. Put in other terms, this motor >does not scale up well. > Agreed ..it does not. But the fuel is free, and if you use liquids as the heat transfer medium, there is the advantage that conduction from liquids transfers heat more efficiently than does air. Also...Using a black rubber may enhance heat transfer slightly. Colin Quinney From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 15:24:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA21968; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:18:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:18:56 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:17:49 PST8PDT Subject: Re: Basics of grad B drift attack on 2nd law Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: Resent-Message-ID: <"j_wCu2.0.AN5.FFdPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >As it turns out the drift > velocity is always given by: > > v(q) = - Curl M(q)/q*n(q) > > and the current is always zero. > > Lawrence E. Wharton Thanks for the insight. Could you perhaps offer a brief explanation of why this is physically true? I'm sure your equations are correct, but I just don't have the mental picture yet. Thanks in advance, JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 16:24:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA30148; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:14:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:14:35 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:19:25 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Basics of grad B drift attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"UpylC3.0.-M7.Q3ePp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:43 PM 4/29/97, Larry Wharton wrote: [snip 3d drift equations] >I believe that whatever drift you try out >will agree with the equation, but if not that is a really significant >result. > >Lawrence E. Wharton I understand grad B to be the 3D vector point function of the field B which indicates its direction and magnitude. The mental concept involved here (with "creep") does not seem at first glance to require the complexities of 3D analysis. A parametric 2D anaylysis seemed sufficient, but requires, at minimum, the incorporation of the particle electrostatic field interations. On further reflection, I am wondering if the degrees of freedom are key to understanding this problem. This then raises the question: is elimination of a degree of freedom for the charged particles, which are assumed to be moving in a plane purpendicular to a B gradient, the source of 2nd law violation? It is fairly easy to visualize and to model a two dimensional path of charged particles in a purpendicular B gradient, including their electrostatic field interations, less easy but feasible to include second order effects like particle mutual magnetic coupling. But, is it a model of any conceivable reality? I suppose that quesion could have two parts: (1) is a two dimensional projection a valid technique for a model of the 3D phenomenon, given that B remains purpendicular at all points? (2) is it feasible to actually restrict charged particle motion to a plane sufficiently to realize the 2D model in reality? As Frank Stenger points out, there is the practical issue of whether a crystal stucture exists that provides such 2D confines. It is perfectly clear to me that in a two dimensional model the subject drift occurs, and that when it does, an electrostatic field gradient, as described, is created at the expense of average particle momentum. It also seems clear that this action violates the second law. So, it seems critical to determine if the conversion of a three dimensional problem into a two dimensional problem is the cause. If it is the cause, and there is a physically realizable experiment, like through the use of a superconductive film, this could be a significant result, as you say. One possibility to gain further insight might be to write a simulation that can run 2D and 3D compartments under similar circumstances. The top and bottom walls could reflect and the side walls allow pass-through to the opposite sides in order to close the loop. I might be able to put a BASIC program together to do that, especially with a bit of help. Anyone see some clear analytical answers right off? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 19:11:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA24812; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:08:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:08:52 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:08:24 PST8PDT Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: Resent-Message-ID: <"B0k5j2.0.Y36.pcgPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Why couldn't we use a metal plate with a wire attached at each > > end as opposed to "chamber A"? Any conductor contains movable > > charge, right? > > Good point, Jay! I'm a bit of a dud on solid-state physics, but are not > some conductor crystals characterized by having the conduction electrons > confined to "planes" between atomic layers of the crystals? It would > seem that we need a conduction plane giving the electrons two degrees of > linear freedom with the B-field perp. to this plane. Maybe we need > single-crystal conductors with the correct orientation - huh Horace, > what do you think? > > Frank Stenger I'm in way over my head here, but if the crystals are a problem, why not dispense with them? How about using a film of mercury between two glass plates? That seems about the closest thing to meeting Horace's strict 2D model while getting rid of the electrolyte mess and crystal problems. I don't know, does it sound reasonable to you guys? JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 19:33:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA26100; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:27:34 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Basics of grad B drift attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"XNp4v2.0.kN6.ougPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:43 PM 4/29/97, Larry Wharton wrote: >>To disprove the 2nd law it is only necessary to show that grad B drift can >>generate any potential whatsoever across a cell containing ions. However, >>the fundamental question regarding practical use or even an experimental >>test is the question of whether grad B drift (gbd) cells can be put in >>series, or alternatively made long, in order to increase the total >>electrostatic potential achievable at a given temperature. The magnetic > >Horace, > I am sorry to tell you that all known charged particle drifts are >completely in accord with the 2nd law. To illustrate this one must >evaluate the current equation in the presence of particle drift. The >current density, J, is given by: > > J = Sum[ q*n(q)*v(q) + Curl M(q) ] > >where the sum is over the ion species with charge q , density n(q) , drift >velocity v(q) , and induced magnetization M(q) . As it turns out the drift >velocity is always given by: > > v(q) = - Curl M(q)/q*n(q) > >and the current is always zero. I might suggest reading up on >electrodynamics and understanding the Curl M term. Then you could >calculate various drift velocities from this equation and see that they >agree with the usual result. I believe that whatever drift you try out >will agree with the equation, but if not that is a really significant >result. > >Lawrence E. Wharton >NASA/GSFC code 913 >Greenbelt MD 20771 >(301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov Some notes: The above does not seem to take into account electrostatic pressure. The proposed cell is closed (reflects particles) on top and bottom, open to the right and left. An increased ion concentration upwards toward the top boundary, due to ExB drift, due to the vertically decreasing B, increases pressure toward the top, but does not result in flow once equilibrium is established. (It would in a plasma device because the walls will "eat" the ions.) I'm not sure about your use of M. I undersand M to be the magnetization, i.e. B = u0 (H + M). Thus, in a vacuum M = 0. In the proposed cell, the magnitude of B decreases linearly with y and is constant at all z, and x, for a given y. This is one reason it seems OK to go to a 2D model. The direction cosines of B are constant at (0,1,0). Here's the original definition of the attack on 2nd law: - - - - - - - - - - - "In a uniform magnetic field coming out of the page, thermal positive ions will tend to rotate in a clockwise circle, negative ions will tend to rotate in a conter-clockwise circle. If the magnetic field is non-uniform, a gradient stronger at the bottom of the page than at the top, then drift occurs. Positive ions will tend to drift (creep) to the right, negative ions to the left. The drift is caused by the fact that the cyclotron radius is smaller on the bottom portion of the loop. Thus positive ions move in long arcs to the right and short acs to the left, for example. The above implies that in the proposed magnetic gradient, the energy from ambient heat can be used to form an electrostatic gradient, negative to the left and positive to the right. With a completed circuit, the configuration takes thermal energy from ions in the magnetic field gradient and converts it to current. Such a test would result in low, possibly almost undetectable energies, but a positive result should disprove the principle of entropy." - - - - - - - - - - - In a uniform magnetic field coming out of the page, thermal positive ions will tend to rotate in a clockwise circle. If the field is stronger at the bottom of the page (decreasing B in y direction) the path, as viewed in the x,y plane of the paper, will look something like: >. . .> . . . . . .. . . . . . . .<. Electrons would tend to drift in the opposite or left-wise direction. It seems like any motion in the z axis would be irrelevent to these dynamics. Also, it seems that, if there is any resistance at the left or right boundaries, or if they are closed, as the top and bottom are assumed to be, then a right to left electrostatic gradient will form. ExB drift will then increase pressure toward the top of the cell. If resistance at the right and left boundaries is partial, then a net current, consisting of the combination of postive flow to right and negative flow to the left, should occur. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 19:49:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA29959; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:47:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:47:03 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:51:57 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"4pVzx3.0.1K7.cAhPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:08 AM 4/29/97, Jay Olson wrote: >> Why couldn't we use a metal plate with a wire attached at each >> > end as opposed to "chamber A"? Any conductor contains movable >> > charge, right? >> >> Good point, Jay! I'm a bit of a dud on solid-state physics, but are not >> some conductor crystals characterized by having the conduction electrons >> confined to "planes" between atomic layers of the crystals? It would >> seem that we need a conduction plane giving the electrons two degrees of >> linear freedom with the B-field perp. to this plane. Maybe we need >> single-crystal conductors with the correct orientation - huh Horace, >> what do you think? >> >> Frank Stenger > >I'm in way over my head here, but if the crystals are a problem, why >not dispense with them? How about using a film of mercury between >two glass plates? That seems about the closest thing to meeting Horace's >strict 2D model while getting rid of the electrolyte mess and crystal >problems. I don't know, does it sound reasonable to you guys? > >JAY OLSON Great ideas! I just don't have a clue as to what might work even if the basic idea is sound. For geting flat, gold leaf is an idea, and metal film deposition is good. However, I don't know what the conduction bands might look like in any of these circumstances. In crystals they are usually in a grid form I think, which precludes the circular motion necessary. A true planar conduction band sounds great, but where to find? Mercury is intersting, as conduction bands would be dynamically jumbled up. I don't have much hope for electrolytes because conduction there may be in the form of molecule rotation and proton tunneling. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 21:35:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA12033; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:26:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:26:52 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:26:41 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"06vn43.0.xx2.CeiPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:34:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Quinney To: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? At 10:38 AM 4/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >Quinney wrote: >> >(snip) >> >> I've still got the parts laying about for my 1982 un built prototype..... >> (talk about procrastinating!) >> >Very interesting, Colin! Darn, I missed all those good articles on the >RB engines. Do you recall what type of elastic bands were found to be >best? Bill mentions urethane as being longer lasting. > >Frank Stenger Yes.. urethanes are longer lasting, but they do not have the elasticity of natural latex (rubber). I do not recall urethane itself being a contender for these engines. Natural rubber, bands or membranes, can stretch 700%. I do believe that nothing else comes near this amount of stretch. (quite a stretch, eh?) Unfortunately, rubber is degraded in the presence of ozone, and since ozone is found wherever oxygen is found, these devices will have a limited lifetime. The trick, I think, to a longer service life, is to exclude air in the heat exchange chamber(s). Ordinary elastic bands work well. The trick, if I recall, was to stretch them near the elastic limit. Colin Quinney, From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 23:53:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA31107; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:50:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:50:52 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970430024640.00798100 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 02:46:42 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Quinney Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rbIdV3.0.zb7.BlkPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:34 AM 4/29/97 -0500, John E. Steck wrote: >On Apr 28, 9:34pm, Quinney wrote: > >> I built one of these elastic band designs in >> 1974. The torque was impressive, (I couldn't stop the rotation with both >> hands), but the RPM's were very low.(~12 RPM.) > >The answer is not that complex or expensive. The secret is using a proper gear >box setup. The RPM potential is primarily limited by the net torque available. > If your device is as strong as you say, I don't think it would be that hard to >come up with an ideal ratio of gears to rubberbands to create a limited use >prime mover. The calculations get interesting primarily because of the >amorphous nature of rubber and that no two bands will ever be identical in >strength or endurance. Both the driver and the driven would have to be >tolerant of variations in startup input, and degradation of that input over the >individual cycle lives of each of the bands. Not good for a heart monitor, but >perfectly acceptable for moving air through the ductwork in a house for >example. >-- >John E. Steck >Motorola Inc. > Hi John! That first model that I built, had over 200 moving parts. It was a scaled up version of the Scientific American models (Amateur Scientist section). I used slotted angle iron for the frame and the offset cam-assembly, a bicycle hub for the cam, and a 26" bicycle wheel. The elastics ran from the cam-hub to the 26" rim. The 2" elastics stretched to almost 14 inches. (~ 675% ). It was run in warm water (bottom half), and air (top half). Cooling took place from the evaporation of the water droplets that adhered to the elastics as they emerged from the water. Balance was very important...and if one band broke, the wheel had to be stopped to re-balance the remaining elastics. You are right ; it would have only been good enough for moving air. Multiple membranes however, should not have this problem. And a membrane motor would have far fewer moving parts.(Hopefully, around 3 to 5 moving parts with a good design, for each membrane). You speak of a limited use prime mover. Maybe..maybe...Until an actual prototype is built and tested, it is hard to say exactly how much power a multi-membrane motor unit could put out. A skeptical tendency would be to assume that these also, would only be just a toy or a little bit more than that but...The possible power points in their favor are .. 1}definitely low tech, so more units could be easily and inexpensively added as needed... 2} The efficiency may be significantly improved by using a liquid with a low surface tension for additional evaporation (due to the increased evaporating area)... 3} Some of the developed power could be diverted to direct airflow into the unit(s) with a fan to speed the evaporation, thus cooling the unit at a faster rate... 4} Using a superior brand of rubber... some research required to increase the thermal conductivity, etc. Consider the actual total area of rubber that I used in that early model, (about 3 or 4 square inches on a 26" diameter wheel ). Then consider how much larger an area of heat exchangeable rubber that can exist with just one single 10" diameter membrane...I tend to think that the velocity of the moving air in the house's ductwork might be quite high with a multi-membrane motor. As a Prime Mover, it may be one of *the* answers....or it may not. A definite point in it's favor, from an acceptability point of view is, "It doesn't violate any known laws." A personal point against them however, is that it is a real pain to build the prototype(s). So I've always wondered if I should finish building it..?.. Colin Quinney. Toronto Canada. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 23:54:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA29830; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:37:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:37:00 -0700 Date: 30 Apr 97 02:35:48 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Subject: duplication of vort msgs with private mail Message-ID: <970430063547_100060.173_JHB81-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"X5Tpj1.0.yH7.BYkPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: gnorts, Has anyone else been getting a second copy of vortex-l postings in their private mailbox? For some time I've been having duplication from several subscribers, mainly Frank Stenger, but also occasionally others. These have been trapped by my anti-scam system which scans all internet mail and only accepts nominated addresses for complete delivery, leaving all others as headers only, but still have to be deleted by another pass when I select those which I want to either delete or accept. I have checked my list of "accepted" mail addresses and there are no odd entries. Any other experiences? Norman P.S. Has anyone had any problems accessing the Science/math forum on C/Serve in the last day or so? I am getting blocked by CIS saying that GO CIS:SCIENCE is now a gateway and not a forum - very strange. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 23:59:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA03059; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: 30 Apr 97 02:48:55 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Subject: science forum change Message-ID: <970430064854_100060.173_JHB16-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"xHGFh3.0.fl.zlkPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Vorts, I've solved the Science forum problem - the GO-word has been changed to SCIMATH, and the gateway has been tarted up to include all sorts of time consuming alternative addresses with huge memory consuming graphics home-pages. Progress I suppose ;^) Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 00:26:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA05540; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:19:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:18:45 +0000 Message-ID: <19970430071843.AAA7936 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"tWieo1.0.UM1.JAlPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: For those interested in the research going on in harvesting some of the 12,000 quads/day Solar insolation bathing the Earth, you might want to check the NREL web page, www.nrel.gov . Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 04:37:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA23302; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 04:32:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 04:32:36 -0700 Message-ID: <33672D92.35C microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 21:01:30 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Expressions of Interest Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dlQhF1.0._h5.JtoPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I am interested in expressions of interest from freenrg, vortex, newman and other members who may wish to assist the next stage of my "Simple OU Device" development. I am working to a timetable to be able to demonstrate a prototype rotary magnetic unit, driving a small commercial generator, driving a small light buld (min 1-2 watts) to a select group with-in 2 months. The unit will be secured by world wide patents. A development company will be formed which will have the exclusive development rights. Finance will be sought from you on a strictly commercial basis. It is not my intention to seek support from normal financial sources. I believe we can do this ourselves. It is my intention for the basic technology of the unit to be available to any and all by way of a upfront fee (depending on usage) and royality fee (based on power generated). Everything from a home generator to a power station. It is not my intention for the company to engage in manufacturing. A management board will be formed from the shareholders which will represent the global community. I know this all sounds hairy-fairy but it is just a expression of interest at this time. I WILL NOT ask for financial support until I can demonstrate a working unit. If I can demonstrate a working unit, are you interested in : 1) Attending a demo in Adelaide? 2) Attending a demo in the USA? 3) Attending a demo in Europe? 4) If everything checks out, in investing my hard earned money. 5) In being involved in the development company : A) In Magagement. B) In Finance. C) In Marketing. D) In Development and Research. E) Other areas. I will treat all replies with confidence. By the way, I have built a electronics development company from myself to 45 people. I do understand how to do this. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 05:23:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA27888; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 05:22:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 05:22:55 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 04:28:00 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Wild but creepy attack on 2nd law Resent-Message-ID: <"vaioI.0.gp6.UcpPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reading Hall, "Solid State Physics", it appears a good material for a test may be germanium doped with group V elements, like phospohorous or arsenic, an n-type germanium. A perfect germanium crystal is transparent to free electrons, but the electron acts as if it has mass m*, where m* ~= m/10. (The problem is in achieving high purity to approximate "perfect".) The dopants trap free electrons with a binding energy of about -0.01 eV, which is less than the average thermal kinetic energy of about 0.026 eV, so many of the impuity sites will be ionized, providing the free electrons. The ground state wavefunction for the dopant bound electrons has a radius of about 50 Angstroms, which acount for the low energy binding. It is of interest that cyclotron resonance is used to determine m* experimentally. The electrons, of apparent mass m*, move in circular orbits at an angular frequency of f = (e)(B)/(m*), independent of their energy, and thus can absorb EM radiation at frequency f. At 1 tesla we get f to be approximately 10^12 s^-1. One of the problems in measuring cyclotron resonance, and a possible problem to drift detection, is getting the electrons to complete a few orbits on average before disruption by impurities or thermal vibrations. For this reason extrememly pure material is used at liquid He temperatures to determine m*. For our purposes, which does not require resonance, it does not seem like these extreme measures are necessary. It is also of interest that holes can be used as well as electrons for determining m*, and that it is possible to use a mixture of n and p type dopants to achieve electron migration to the left and hole migration to the right when the B gradient is vertical as in our example (i.e. dB/dx = 0, dB/dy = -|ky|, dB/dz=0). Frank's first idea, using a hall effect transistor, may have been a winner. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 05:33:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA00330; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 05:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 05:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: 30 Apr 97 08:26:54 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: duplication of vort msgs with private mail Message-ID: <970430122654_76016.2701_JHC35-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"kh7iH2.0.y4.0jpPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Norman Mailer asks about the Horwood -- strike that. Norman Horwood asks about the Mailer: >>For some time I've been having duplication from several subscribers, mainly Frank Stenger, but also occasionally others.<< Yep. I just thought Frank thought it was important that I read it. Maybe the moderator should look into this. Also: >>P.S. Has anyone had any problems accessing the Science/math forum on C/Serve in the last day or so?<< Yah, CSi has reorganized their Science fora. Try "Go Scimath". Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 07:02:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA12196; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 06:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 06:58:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704300852.ZM13113 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:52:07 -0500 In-Reply-To: Quinney "Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE?" (Apr 30, 1:46am) References: <3.0.32.19970430024640.00798100 inforamp.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"evcE72.0.U-2.__qPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Apr 30, 1:46am, Quinney wrote: > You speak of a limited use prime mover. Maybe..maybe... You will have to excuse my hasty reference. Unfortunately, over time, my immediate surroundings have taken on the appearances of the windmill lab in the Disney movie Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang. I seem to have developed a general indifference to odd devices whirling and clicking around me doing mundane tasks easily handled by readily available technology (much to the dismay of my fiance). The overall practicality of such a device is certainly questionable, but fun to play with none-the-less! 8^) > So I've always wondered if I should finish building it..? I seem to ask myself that question a lot lately. So little time, so many interesting things yet to do! You are asking advice from the wrong person...... 8^) -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 07:06:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA12481; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:00:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704300854.ZM13156 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:54:32 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Antimatter Fountain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"KfC1I1.0.x23.J2rPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scientists Find Antimatter Fountain Gushing From Center of Milky Way -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 08:41:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA23211; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33675E10.8DC interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:58:24 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: HELP-VORTEX-L-MAIL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FaauM1.0.Bf5.MLsPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey, Vortexians! I'm using Netscape Mail, as far as I know (which is not far!) I have no special options set - I have no distribution lists set up - I have this message: Mail To: vortex-l eskimo.com - no Cc: Norman Horwood and Terry Blanton say they get dupes of my stuff on their private e-mail - am I doing something wrong? HELP, Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 08:41:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA02376; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:34:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:34:41 -0700 Date: 30 Apr 97 11:32:32 EDT From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Antimatter Fountain Message-ID: <970430153232_76570.2270_FHU59-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"shVsf1.0.xa.FQsPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This subject also made the front page of the New York Times yesterday. Fizzix is fizzing! Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 76570.2270 compuserve.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 08:45:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA23353; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3367619E.15A9 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:13:34 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: FINAL RUBBER NOTE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KUsm.0.Di5.tLsPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To conclude my "rubber band heat engine" comments, my condensed matter reference says that rubber is the ONLY known solid that shows an elastic modulus increase with increasing temperature. When I see the words "the only ...." in science, I think: "This is a good item to tuck into my amateur anomalous science brain file for future reference!" Nuff said ------ Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 08:57:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA08836; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:55:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:55:34 -0700 Message-ID: <33677901.6E8B keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:53:21 -0700 From: Jerry Decker Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Rubber Band Heat Engine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mX10_.0.-92.rjsPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts! Woops, did not change the reply headers for the group, sorry. The rubber band heat engine sounds a lot like Wally Mintos wonder wheel which is kind of like the drinking bird but on an axis....found the file and one .GIF to illustrate the principle and posted it at; http://www.keelynet.com/energy/minto.htm This might have been posted previously but as Chuck says, it looks 'doable'.....seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 09:33:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA15175; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:27:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:27:24 -0700 Message-ID: <33677476.7FD1 gorge.net> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:33:59 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? References: <199704301137.EAA23799 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AodCP3.0.0j3.hBtPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The rubber band engine IS very interesting, but, I think the MINTO wheel holds more promise. http://users.mildura.net.au/users/egel/tempw.htm The original article is said to be on BillB's site, but I couldn't find it. The Minto wheel uses a completely different mechanism, but similar performance. It also should be easier to scale up. The working fluid is a problem, though. I have thought about water, at very low torr, or water alcohol mix, or water/ammonia mix, with only the ammonia vaporizing. (As in a kerosene refrigerator.) Any ideas? Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 09:34:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA14998; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:26:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:26:33 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC5548.63F702B0 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Wally Minto's heat engine Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:25:05 -0700 Encoding: 47 TEXT, 59 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"L1tDx3.0.Fg3.tAtPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jerry, Yes, definitely interested in any information on this you have. I had a related idea back in the early 80's. Had friends with a business located in a big corrugated steel warehouse, and it would get so hot in the summer... I figured there must be a way to use all that energy to cool the place. The idea was to use expansion and contraction of long bars of metal to drive fans, which would cool the building. But at the time I didn't have the resources to follow up on it so it didn't happen. Would love to see details of an already-designed unit that worked, and maybe build one! Thanks, Dan Quickert ---------- From: Jerry Decker Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 1997 9:18 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? Gnorts Vorts! This sounds very much like Wally Minto's heat engine as described in Pop Science back around the 1980s....he had this very large wheel where half of it rotated through a tub of water.....one version was something like 30 feet in diameter and created amazing torque at low rpm's.... I might have something on this already scanned in if you guys want to see it, can post it at the KeelyNet site.....the only caveat about the Minto wheel (called the 'Wonder Wheel') was it worked best within a certain temperature range..... Sounded neat because you could gear up to drive a generator that would charge a battery network that would power your house, all from a garage setup.....if there is interest, let me know and I'll hunt down the file and .gifs.... -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^( 80`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! M. $````"`?8/`0````0````````",#,!!( !`!X```!213H@5V%L;'D@36EN M=&\G``D`&0`%``,`( $! 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D VP`9 #$#23SP.1 M!T 7H"+ >2T-L "0=F#()'<92$< M[#$``'!K'> <[+I$`Y%1-Y D``20=!SL00KT;&DQ-#0"T6F>+4?S#-!'\PM9 M,38*H.<#8!YP,X +4J7"H=)2^L,,$H61@-A.DN>2A8,@O\<=!9@!9!&44L_ M3$T&8 (PVTU_3HM7"8 FT60N,!WP)D%*$ ,1,S =\#$Y #DW(#DZ,3@3<&9- M4!],351O4E].BW:C%T$R0"UL0 >0:P=P-&\N!:!M5D]1+G5B3FI*45AO3HM2 M95W 4B!50D)%4C@004X"1"5014%4($5.X$=)3D4_1I\+*!0BLPP!2A9';A=! M!"!69$+_0Y\ \3IA)>(A@$^!+8 V85]'T$(0/B NT1Z@31[!;^\E("%0([ O M0F9Z<\(N8')Q"E X4CM"N')P;24A+$$AOFTH`'YH M.95S:""F0#4HT"= ;M]!`A]Q!I A$RS >28!`'!_.'$^]&'U'F =\'P1,(!O MURVA*C$X94LI`7D'P"KA_QYA!UT5?Y;F(G*3&#*C-"`BW!+:%_)B(GHS# `" +<1U& M'G!M_ST0,V!Q4"U1,V :H(#4'.S^4V8R'T$FT"\Q+= G0"Z2_R$B!: JA K! M.X$U1R+P*L#_+W$ 0 6Q094J@F'U$;)N(>\CP@) 9J(FT'1!XHYJ?R#^=W71 M(2$%P"F&%D$#4HVB_0K 86XA8?41\3N ,(1 '48I\BY_:- #T(F92I =1IM-3U17 MUR5 3[2;02^;06H% 491?D!"$!Z!D*%;.9M&>>!TH' Z+R]WH$ NGBK]G4,B M33(_\ <0?:,B\&K5?B*:[&20-E D@%W@@_ R`T?PA: S,C0M.#=^-!Q@G42 M%V !?"DJ#,X-3 QFNJ %YK 4$^).!!/6"3P-S W2>!]J.%-!Y!W Reply-To: Peter Jason Aldo To: Greg Watson Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest In-Reply-To: <33672D92.35C microtronics.com.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"I6EL4.0.CU1.xVtPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Gregg, I just read your plans for the OU device. I am currently working on an overunity generator called a stationary armature generator. I just graduated from Ohio University with a major called Sustainable Technology with I designed myself. I am looking for employment and thought maybe you could give me some leads. I would also be interested in seeing the demonstration of your device when its completed. On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > Hi All, > > I am interested in expressions of interest from freenrg, vortex, newman > and other members who may wish to assist the next stage of my "Simple OU > Device" development. > > I am working to a timetable to be able to demonstrate a prototype rotary > magnetic unit, driving a small commercial generator, driving a small > light buld (min 1-2 watts) to a select group with-in 2 months. > > The unit will be secured by world wide patents. > > A development company will be formed which will have the exclusive > development rights. > > Finance will be sought from you on a strictly commercial basis. > > It is not my intention to seek support from normal financial sources. I > believe we can do this ourselves. > > It is my intention for the basic technology of the unit to be available > to any and all by way of a upfront fee (depending on usage) and royality > fee (based on power generated). Everything from a home generator to a > power station. > > It is not my intention for the company to engage in manufacturing. > > A management board will be formed from the shareholders which will > represent the global community. > > > I know this all sounds hairy-fairy but it is just a expression of > interest at this time. > > I WILL NOT ask for financial support until I can demonstrate a working > unit. > > > If I can demonstrate a working unit, are you interested in : > > 1) Attending a demo in Adelaide? > > 2) Attending a demo in the USA? > > 3) Attending a demo in Europe? > > 4) If everything checks out, in investing my hard earned money. > > 5) In being involved in the development company : > > A) In Magagement. > > B) In Finance. > > C) In Marketing. > > D) In Development and Research. > > E) Other areas. > > I will treat all replies with confidence. > > > By the way, I have built a electronics development company from myself > to 45 people. I do understand how to do this. > > > -- > Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au > Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > 61 18 833 461 Mobile > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 10:04:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA22165; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:59:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:59:26 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:07:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Jason Aldo To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? In-Reply-To: <336770D5.66DA keelynet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2dT5w.0.EQ5.jftPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jerry, I read that Wally Minto's heat engine is 85% thermally efficient. According the Carnot's law, a heat engine can't be this efficient at such low temperature differentials. If this engine somehow avoids Carnot's laws, then you could hook this engine up to a heat pump with a C.O.P. of say 5 (the hot end vaporizing the liquid in the lower tank and the cold side condensing it on top).Since the heat pump would be putting out five units of heat energy for every one unit of electricity put in, then the minto wheel be over-unity. I suspect the Minto wheel is not really 85% efficient. What do you think? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 10:08:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA23111; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336770D5.66DA keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:18:29 -0700 From: Jerry Decker Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? References: <3.0.32.19970430024640.00798100 inforamp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mWI09.0.4d5.5LsPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts! This sounds very much like Wally Minto's heat engine as described in Pop Science back around the 1980s....he had this very large wheel where half of it rotated through a tub of water.....one version was something like 30 feet in diameter and created amazing torque at low rpm's.... I might have something on this already scanned in if you guys want to see it, can post it at the KeelyNet site.....the only caveat about the Minto wheel (called the 'Wonder Wheel') was it worked best within a certain temperature range..... Sounded neat because you could gear up to drive a generator that would charge a battery network that would power your house, all from a garage setup.....if there is interest, let me know and I'll hunt down the file and .gifs.... -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 10:19:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA24848; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:11:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:11:27 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Hot Damn!(Rubber Band Engine) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:10:46 +0000 Message-ID: <19970430171044.AAA7076 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"AQ5eM.0.946.zqtPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank Stenger's comment on rubber being the only known material to have increased elastic modulus when stretched, reminds me of my younger years on the farm. Never having had the luxury of wire cutters handy, if you wanted a piece of baling wire for something (and during WW II it was your welder) you grasped a piece between the thumb and index finger of both hands and bent it back and forth until it separated. The thing got so hot that you couldn't hold on to it. OU calorimetry called for here? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 11:21:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA05329; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:14:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:14:59 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9704301309.ZM14221 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:09:09 -0500 In-Reply-To: Peter Jason Aldo "Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE?" (Apr 30, 11:57am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"64AN_1.0.BJ1.ZmuPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Apr 30, 11:57am, Peter Jason Aldo wrote: > Since the heat pump would be putting out five > units of heat energy for every one unit of electricity put in, then the > minto wheel be over-unity. It's a solar radiation converter, not an o/u device. No electric input, thermal input. Neat idea, great post Jerry! -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 11:33:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA07588; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:27:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:27:36 -0700 Message-ID: <33679C8C.11FB keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:25:00 -0700 From: Jerry Decker Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"O4c38.0.Qs1.NyuPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Peter! I don't think COP and overunity comes into play with Minto because he is using ambient temperatures, so really, its all free beyond the cost of construction and conversion to useable forms... 85% does sound very high for any thermal engine though.....the beauty of Minto's version is its simplicity....I'd imagine ammonia would also make a good refrigerant since it was used in the 'icy balls' for refrigeration, one end of these barbell arrangement would get so cold it would produce ice...you heat one end and cold is produced on the other..... Chuck Henderson (chenders keelynet.com) says he knew a guy who claimed that his relatives had built a giant version of that drinking bird toy, except that several of these bird mechanisms were connected to a cam that essentially rotated all the time as the evaporation process occurred. That in turn produced rotation to drive a generator. Chuck said he tried to arrange a chance to see this thing in operation but his contact said it was a very private and secret thing for their family (and the guy was very paranoid), supposed to be in a barn and producing their electrical needs. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 11:59:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA26858; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33679483.766E interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:50:43 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hot Damn!(Rubber Band Engine) References: <19970430171044.AAA7076 LOCALNAME> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pfA5d1.0.XZ6.-HvPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > you grasped a piece between the thumb and > index finger of both hands and bent it back and forth until it separated. > > The thing got so hot that you couldn't hold on to it. > OU calorimetry called for here? :-) > Nope. Just plastic flow work, Frederick. Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 12:33:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA17961; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:26:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:26:32 -0700 Message-ID: <33679D0F.5C81 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 15:27:11 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HELP-VORTEX-L MAIL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bSQyt1.0.UO4.epvPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: OK, Here's what I think I've been doing wrong! I have been using the "Reply to all" funtion in Netscape Mail to reply to Vortex-l posts. According to Netscape "help" this pre-addresses the message to the original sender (Vortex-l) AND ALL OTHER RECIPIENTS OF THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE (I GUESS THATS ALL VORTEX-L SUBSCRIBERS!) So, in the future I'll be a good boy and just use "Reply to" when posting to Vortex. Live and learn, Frank Frank Stenger Stenger (copy from Terry Terry) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 12:48:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA21292; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:44:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:44:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3367A1A3.4966 compassnet.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:46:43 -0500 From: "Ronald R. Stiffler" Reply-To: stiffler compassnet.com Organization: Advanced Technology Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Research Partner Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aXPL7.0.cC5.j4wPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Looking for someone in Texas which is willing to sign a Non-Disclosure & Propriety Rights Agreement for a 25% interest in BiPEG, (Bi-Phase Energy Gate). This device currently contains 212 feet of #24 wire wound in three coils, one transistor and one capacitor. This BiPeg device will charge a lead acid battery (12V 7Ahr) from 1.35V to 8.01V in 36 minutes. Voltage holds at this level and will not charge higher. (Here is where help is needed) Need someone willing to work with me on getting BiPEG to 12V and will offer 25% interest (no cash needed) your help only. This device is the size of a two D cell flash light and costs less than $4 to build. Please contact me direct via my e-mail. -- To understand is to begin, to dream is to complete. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 13:48:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA14935; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:44:59 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Thermal Electro-magnetic Drift Device (TEDD) Resent-Message-ID: <"JZxfE.0.Hf3.3vwPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: It seems like a descriptive name and acronym for the principle under discussion would be good, so I suggest it be called Thermally-energized Electro-Magnetic Drift (TED). A gadget using the principle would be called a TED Device (or TEDD - pronounced Teddy). Let's assume we can achieve operation in an average of a 1 T field with a dB/dy magnetic field gradient of -0.1 T/cm, and a drift electron density of Nd = 10^22/m^3. Assume M* to be about Me/10 = 0.91 10^-31 kg. Elementary charge e = 1.6x10^-19 C. We get the angular frequency Wc = (e)(B)/m* = (1.6x10^-19 C)(1 T)/(0.91 10^-31 kg) = 1.76x10^12 rad s^-1, or a frequency: f = 2.79x10^11 sec^-1. Assume average thermal energy 270 deg. kelvin. At 11,600 deg. K/eV that's 0.23 eV. At 1.6x10^-10 J/eV we have an average free electron energy of 3.7x10^-20 J. Assuming we can apply E = 0.5(M*)(v^2), we have: 3.7x10^-20 k*m^2/s^2 = 0.5(0.91 10^-31 kg)(v^2) v = 9x10^5 m/s Given a time of 1/f = 1/(2.79x10^11 sec^-1) = 3.6x10^-12, this give an orbital circumference of v/f = (9x10^5 m/s)/(2.79x10^11 sec^-1) = 3.2x10^-6 m. This gives an orbital diameter of: Do = 1.02x10^-6 m Given that dB/dy = -0.1 T/cm = -10 T/m, we have delta B = (-10 T/m)(1.02x10^-6 m) = -1.02x10^-5 T across the range of the loop. This means the bottom radius is roughly about (3.2x10^-5 T)/(1 T) = 3.2x10^-5 times the top radius in the epicycloid, giving a "creep" on the x axis of: Cx = (3.2x10^-5)(1.02x10^-6 m) = 3.3x10^-11 m. Given a repetition rate of f = 2.79x10^11 sec^-1 we have a drift rate: Vd = (Cx)(f) = (3.3x10^-11 m)(2.79x10^11 sec^-1) = 2.79 m/s. Using Nd = 10^22/m^3 we get a current of 2.79x10^22 per m^3 we get current density J = (Vd)(Nd)/(6x10^18 electrons/s/ampere) = (2.79 m/s)(10^22/m^3)/(6x10^18 electrons/s/ampere) = 4650 amperes/m^2. Assuming a conductor of 10^-3 m on a side, or 10^-6 m cross section, we should get a current of 4.65x10^-3 A = 4.65 mA, assuming no resistance. Any problems so far? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 14:07:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA01224; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:58:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:58:58 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 20:58:14 +0000 Message-ID: <19970430205811.AAA5600 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"b3xBK1.0.vI.HAxPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:25 PM 4/30/97 +0000, Jerry W. Decker wrote: > >Chuck Henderson (chenders keelynet.com) says he knew a guy who claimed >that his relatives had built a giant version of that drinking bird toy, >except that several of these bird mechanisms were connected to a cam that >essentially rotated all the time as the evaporation process occurred. >That in turn produced rotation to drive a generator. Methinks some other bird was drinking too much. :-) > >Chuck said he tried to arrange a chance to see this thing in operation >but his contact said it was a very private and secret thing for their >family (and the guy was very paranoid), supposed to be in a barn and >producing their electrical needs. It would be shocking if it was true. :-) Regards, Frederick >-- > Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com > http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" > Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 > KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 14:16:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA03402; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:08:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:08:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3367C25E.740F keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 15:06:22 -0700 From: Jerry Decker Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? References: <19970430205811.AAA5600 LOCALNAME> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wtvue2.0.4r.MJxPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Frederick! To quote Jim Marrs, "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy..." -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 14:20:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA19948; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:08:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:10:56 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: GYROSCOPIC MOTIONS..... Resent-Message-ID: <"KTJ-W2.0.bt4.dJxPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: GYROSCOPIC MOTIONS..... Anti-Gravity Effects of a Clockwise Spinning Gyroscope Dr Hayasaka, and associates at Tohoku University, have conducted a second experiment which examines the weight difference between a right and left spinning gyroscope. A paper describing the experiment was presented at the International Conference of New Ideas in Natural Sciences, St. Petersburg Russia, June 1996. In Dr Hayasaka's first experiment (published in Physics Review Letters 63 pp 2701-2704, 1989), the weight difference between a right and left spinning gyroscope was measured on a balance scale. In the second experiment, the weight difference is determined by measuring differences in the fall time. Attempts were made to repeat Hayasaka's first experiment, each of which had a null result, and other papers were published crtical of his experimental method. See: Faller, et al, Phys Rev Lett 64, pp 825-826, 1990 Nitschke and Wilmarth, Phys Rev Lett 64, pp2115-2116, 1990 Salter, Nature, 343 pp 509-510, 1990 Quinn and Picard, Nature, 343 pp732-735, 1990 MacCallum, New Scientist, 17 Feb 1990, page 30 None the less, Hayasaka et al, have continued with a second experiment, presumably with funding provided by Matshushita. Interestingly, the experimental findings of the second experiment are very close to the amount of the first experiment. Also in the second paper, there is a reference to an earlier experiment done with falling gyroscopes which has a similar positive finding (done by T.S. Kemper but not published). =============================== "Possibility for the Existence of Anti-Gravity and the Complete Parity Breaking of Gravity; Evidence from Free-Fall Experiment of a Spinning Gyro." Authors: Hideo Hayasaka, Haruo Tanaka, Toshiyuki Hashida, and Tokushi Chubachi -- Faculty of Engineering, Tohoku University, Sendai 980, Japan, and Toshiki Sugiyama, Matsushita Communication Industrial Co. Ltd., Yokohama 226, Japan. Tel: 022-216-8139 Fax: 022-225-2263 email: hashida rift.mech.tohoku.ac.jp Abstract: Free-fall experiment of a spinning gyro enclosed in a capsule has been conducted in order to investigate the effect of an object's spinning on the fall-acceleration. For ten runs of the fall-acceleration measurements, in which each run consists of the left, right and zero spinning about the vertical axis, it has been shown that the mean value of the right-spinning is significantly smaller than of the left-spinning at 18,000 rpm, with the latter being almost identical with of zero spinning. The result suggests that the right-spinning generates anti-gravity, and also that the parity (the reflection symmetry) of gravity breaks down completely. ================================================================= Summary of Experiment (by R. Stirniman): A gyroscope spinning at 18 thosand rpm is contained in a capsule and dropped through a vertical distance of about 170 cm. The fall of the capsule is accurately timed as it cuts through laser beams at three different heights. The experiment is conducted over a large number of trials at 10 different dates over the course of three months. A right spinning gyroscope (clockwise as viewed from the top) is found to fall more slowly than a left spinning gyroscope, or a non-spinning gyroscope. A left spinning and non-spinning gyroscope are found to fall at essentially the same rate. The average of the acceleration over all the experimental trials is determined to be: g(L) = 980.0687 cm/sec/sec, with an error of +/- 0.0663 g(R) = 979.9266 cm/sec/sec, with an error of +/- 0.0716 A difference of 0.1421 cm/sec/sec between right and left spinning. Its a startling finding, and also a very small amount of difference. To put it another perspective -- the total fall time for the capsule to cut through the three laser beams is about 0.53 seconds, and the right spinning gyroscope is slower by about 10E-5 seconds (10 micro seconds). It does not leave much room for experimental error. The experimenters examine, and rule out, a variety of possible causes of systematic error, including: tidal forces, precession and nutation (tilt from vertical), changes in the falling distance due to temperature differences, vertical and cross beam alignment of the lasers, and lifting due to air flow. Dr Hayasaka also puts forth a brief theoretical explanation of the apparent gravitational symmetry breaking. He believes it is due to the de Rham cohomology effect on a spinning object. Whatever that means. Regards, Robert Stirniman ____________________________________________ Thanks, Mr. Stirniman, for sending the above. Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "How few understand the PHYSICAL lines of force! They will not see them, yet all the researches on the subject tend to confirm the views I put forth many years since. Thompson of Glasgow seems almost the only one who acknowledges them. He is perhaps the nearest to understanding what I meant. I am content to wait convinced as I am of the truth of my views." --- MICHAEL FARADAY "In speaking of the Energy of the field, however, I wish to be understood LITERALLY. All energy is the same as mechanical energy, whether it exists in the form of motion or in that of elasticity, or in any other form. The energy in electromagnetic phenomena is _mechanical_ energy." --- JAMES CLERK MAXWELL "According to the general theory of relativity, space is equipped with PHYSICAL qualities; an aether in this sense therefore exists. Space without aether is unthinkable with respect to the general theory of relativity..." --- ALBERT EINSTEIN ".... the magnetic field consists of gyroscopic-type particles which are the mechanical essence of E=mc^2 and represent an orderly flow of kinetic energy." --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 16:12:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA24470; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:02:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:02:19 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3367CF74.4D5B math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:02:12 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Antimatter Fountain References: <970430153232_76570.2270_FHU59-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YYHB22.0.D-5.wzyPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eugene F. Mallove wrote: > > This subject also made the front page of the New York Times > yesterday. Fizzix is fizzing! > Yes, indeed. It is nice to occasionaly discuss real scientific discoveries here, for contrast's sake. :-) -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 16:18:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA27421; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:15:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:15:18 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 15:20:24 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: TEDD Ratchet mechanism. Resent-Message-ID: <"1tQ_R2.0.Mi6.5AzPp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As mentioned earlier, the dopant (e.g. P) atoms tend to trap electrons with a binding energy of about -0.01 eV, which is less than the average thermal kinetic energy of about 0.023 eV for a 270 deg. kelvin operating environment for the germanium crystal lattice. Given no resistance, and thus no potential barrier, significant and measureable currents might be detected from a TEDD cell at an operating B of about 1 T and dB/dy of about 0.1 T and dopant density of about 10^22 atoms/m^2. Resistance in the crystal lattice is mostly in the form of heat due to collisions with lattice atoms, and interactions with dopants and impurities. However, in the face of a building reverse electrostatic field barrier built due to resistance, the electron interaction with the dopant might provide a ratchet mechanism to permit the gradual overcoming of a potential barrier. As an electron drifts against a potential barrier, it loses kinetic energy, meaning it cools. This makes the cool electron susceptable to re-capture by a dopant atom, especially after the electron cools to below the 0.01 eV energy with the dopant. Once captured, the electron is hung on a notch of the ratchet mechanism. It will not get out, nor move backwards, until it has absorbed sufficient thermal energy from the atom, surrounding lattice, ZPE, etc., to overcome the -0.01 eV well. When it does get out, it then again drifts forward until captured again. If the electron should, due to brownina motion, etc., drift backwards in the E field, then it should pick up kinetic energy from that backward movement in the E field, and then tend to be much more likely to drift forward, and to drift forward at a higher rate. The ratchet mechanism should be very fine toothed, in that even in the purest crystals and lowest operating temperatures only a few orbits an be achieved on average. The ratchet mechanism greatly reduces the current due to the time delay required for the electrons to pick up the required thermal energy while pinned to the dopant atoms. However, it does permit movement of the drift current against a potential barrier, and thus permits useful work to be done at the expense of cooling the crystal lattice. Since there are no moving parts, and the proposd TEDD can do useful work in a system where heat is totally uniform, it appears the 2nd law has some chinks in its armour. The actual current generated may be so small as to require a SQUIB or Josephson junction device to detect it, but the perpetual generating of a current while cooling a device below ambient would still be a very useful experimental experiment from a theoretical standpoint. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 16:44:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA15755; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 15:43:36 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: TEDD Ratchet mechanism - won't work 3D? Resent-Message-ID: <"aTvFj3.0.zr3.MWzPp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I may have made some progress in understanding the problem. It *is* a 2D vs 3D problem. The problem occurs when there is an E field opposing the direction of drift. Electons moving in, say, the z direction do not drift at all, thus are totally under the influence of the E field and thus both accelerate backwards and simultaneously reduce their probability of capture by a dopant so as to be ratcheted. The trick to success, then, if any is possible, is restricting motion to primarily the x-y plane. This might be achieved by building very thin layers of doped gallium crystal between insulating layers? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 18:15:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA29579; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3367EE18.108C gorge.net> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:12:57 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? References: <199704302312.QAA26884 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LxhKT2.0.5E7.eo-Pp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peter Aldo wrote about the claimed 85% sfficiency of the Minto Wheel, and how a heat pump attached might work. Peter: I don't know any more about the efficiency of the Minto Wheel than anyone else. However, it seems to me that a significant portion of the equation is the evaporation of water remaining on the wheel, after it leaves the heated water. I think an efficient heat pump could help, and would make an O/U device, if the heat pump actually performed at a COP of 5, and the minto wheel was at even 30% efficiency. One possibility would be to enclose the wheel in an insulated building. The heat pump would heat the water, and cool the air or other gas above, in a closed loop The problem with this is that the evaporater coils would ice up, before a really efficient temp was reached (from the vapor off the wheel). I think a better way would be to insulate the water tank, but force ambient air over first, the evaporater coils, then the wheel. This would tend to dehydrate the air, as well as chill it. Both would help chill the wheel. Most likely, though, the wheel is best left in its simplest state, or maybe try to enhance efficiency by careful decisions about working fluid, and tank configuration. For instance, increasing the tank surface area (fins?) should aid heat excahnge, hence efficiency. Maybe some kind of cloth blanket, to hold more water to evaporate? Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 19:41:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA11769; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3364A32F.789059B5 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:16:31 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Research Partner X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-mEyf.0.mt2.h20Qp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ronald R. Stiffler Wrote: >This device currently contains 212 feet of #24 wire wound in three >coils, one transistor and one capacitor. This BiPeg device will charge >a lead acid battery (12V 7Ahr) from 1.35V to 8.01V in 36 minutes. >Voltage holds at this level and will not charge higher. (Here is where >help is needed) I remembered that empty batteries shows high impedance when they are totally discharged. May few mAmps or fractions are enough to rise voltage 1 to 8 V but then real currents are needed for full charges. So it looks like unrealistic to improve such a device as a battery charger. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 20:01:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA15699; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:02:34 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: TEDD - Some calc. corrections Resent-Message-ID: <"dDnzF2.0.Cr3.sQ0Qp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Let's assume we can achieve operation in an average of a 1 T field with a dB/dy magnetic field gradient of -0.1 T/cm, and a drift electron density of Nd = 10^22/m^3. Assume M* to be about Me/10 = 0.91 10^-31 kg. Elementary charge e = 1.6x10^-19 C. We get the angular frequency Wc = (e)(B)/m* = (1.6x10^-19 C)(1 T)/(0.91 10^-31 kg) = 1.76x10^12 rad s^-1, or a frequency: f = 2.79x10^11 sec^-1. Assume average thermal energy 270 deg. kelvin. At 11,600 deg. K/eV that's 0.023 eV. At 1.6x10^-19 J/eV we have an average free electron energy of 3.7x10^-21 J. Assuming we can apply E = 0.5(M*)(v^2), we have: 3.7x10^-21 k*m^2/s^2 = 0.5(0.91 10^-31 kg)(v^2) v = 2.85x10^5 m/s Given a time of 1/f = 1/(2.79x10^11 sec^-1) = 3.6x10^-12, this give an orbital circumference of v/f = (2.85x10^5 m/s)/(2.79x10^11 sec^-1) = 1.02x10^-6 m. This gives an orbital diameter of: Do = 3.25x10^-7 m Given that dB/dy = -0.1 T/cm = -10 T/m, we have delta B = (-10 T/m)(3.25x10^-7 m) = -3.25x10^-6 T across the range of the loop. This means the bottom radius is roughly about (3.25x10^-6 T)/(1 T) = 3.2x10^-6 times the top radius in the epicycloid, giving a "creep" on the x axis of: Cx = (3.25x10^-6)(3.25x10^-7 m) = 1.06x10^-12 m. Given a repetition rate of f = 2.79x10^11 sec^-1 we have a drift rate: Vd = (Cx)(f) = (1.06x10^-12 m)(2.79x10^11 sec^-1) = 0.3 m/s. Using Nd = 10^22/m^3 we get a current of 2.79x10^22 per m^3 we get current density J = (Vd)(Nd)/(6x10^18 electrons/s/ampere) = (0.3 m/s)(10^22/m^3)/(6x10^18 electrons/s/ampere) = 500 amperes/m^2. Assuming a conductor of 10^-3 m on a side, or 10^-6 m cross section, we should get a current of 0.5x10^-3 A = 0.5 mA, assuming no resistance. Any problems so far? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 30 22:01:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA00511; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 21:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 21:56:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Ion Rainmaker? Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 04:55:03 +0000 Message-ID: <19970501045501.AAA21989 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"FvjCF3.0.n7.z92Qp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex: Instead of Silver Iodide, Dry Ice (CO2), or Smoke, for cloud seeding, why not an Airborne Ion Generator or possibly the charged water droplets that Scott Little used to make and wet his pants? :-) These could be made with a high pressure pump emtying out an large aerial refueling tanker. :-) Please do not mention this in polite company in North Dakota. :-( I had to post this this evening before there is a Blair House in London as well as the one in Washington D.C. :-) Regards, Frederick