From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 03:17:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA02678; Thu, 1 May 1997 03:03:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:03:31 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970501030318.00683ca0 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 03:03:19 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: PARAMETRIC POWER CONVERSION Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"CmUEq3.0.jf.of6Qp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have confirmed Greg's observation some time age experimentally. With 10ohm air core coil, 0.05ohm current sensing resistor and a constant voltage power supply, the voltage drop across the current sensing resistor indeed decreased markedly while a non-conductive ferrite core approached the coil. Note: the voltage across the current-sensing resistor represented the current flowing through the coil. I find the above to be as expected because the product [0.5LI^2] expressing the total electrical energy stored by the coil system will have to be equal before and after the approach of the ferrite core. Since the [L] is increased significantly upon the approach of the core, the [I] will have decrease accordingly to keep the [0.5LI^2] product constant (ie. [L] 10,000 increase ... [I] 100 decrease) This whole situation can be greatly simplified if you consider a closed coil WITHOUT a power supply, with zero resistance. An established current circulating through such coil will continue forever since there is no resistance to dissipate it as heat. Thus no unnecessary complications involving the balance of energy provided by an external power supply VERSUS the energy dissipated in the coil's resistance. The time factor also disappears and the rate of change dI/dt and dL/dt become IRRELEVANT in a closed coil with zero resistance. Regarding the constant voltage VS. constant current power supply, the issue is very simple: since the electric energy stored in the coil tends to be kept constant by the coil's inductance the product [EI] (a.k.a. VI) integrated over the coil's charge/discharge time will have to remain constant, thus [I] will have to decrease if the [E] is forcefully kept constant ***in order to compensate*** for coil's increased charge/discharge integration time, caused by increased [L] as a result of approaching ferrite core with high permeability. The situation where [E] is kept constant and [I] allowed to vary, is analogous. I dare to state that I expect the coil's stored electrical energy [0.5LI^2] be the same before and after the approach of the ferrite core. At 06:49 AM 4/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >Greg Watson wrote: > >> Hold supply voltage constant and supply current DROPS as the core is >> attracted. >> >> Hold supply current constant and the supply voltage DROPS as the core is >> attracted. >> >> Don't believe me? TRY it yourself! > >Curious, Greg. > >I am going by the formula V = LdI/dt + IdL/dt. The first partial will be >zero under constant current conditions, which reduces the formula to V = >IdL/dt which says the voltage across the inductor will increase as the >rate of change of inductance which, in this case, will be positive >because the rod is moving into the coil increasing the inductance. But >you say the voltage across the inductor will DROP. Why? > >This formula says the overall loop voltage will have to increase, ie >driving force within the constant current power supply will have to >increase (or loop resistance decrease), in order to overcome the >positive going EMF induced across the inductor to maintain constant >current. Thus work is done within the power supply to maintain constant >current. The actual work done is VxI where V is the driving voltaage >within the power supply and I is the current plowing in the constant >current loop. > >Correct? > >Maxwell. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 03:44:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA05859; Thu, 1 May 1997 03:42:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:42:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3368720F.7327 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 20:05:59 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Magnetic Forces Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------72AC2D2360E6" Resent-Message-ID: <"wi6h4.0.LR1.lE7Qp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------72AC2D2360E6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I have been asked by several readers about the relative forces of magnets in various configurations. I ran a series of spacing verus magnet configuration. The configurations I tested were : 1) FF SN (Ferrite to magnet attraction forces) 2) SN SN (2 magnets in attraction) 3) NS SN (2 magnets in opposition) The sizes of the test samples were the same. The magnet material as ceramic. The ferrite was steel. The results are attached. The result is not what I would have expected. I expected the opposing results to be the greatest. Just goes to show that magnets do strange things. Suspect the weak opposing results were due to the magnets being driven down their B/H curves and reducing their flux output. Enjoy. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. 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ZUsB5lgSJlT201y6lWEiUVWylGLOkWBGpl9SJvHwJVYciVPuUtNdpiViIuXnPaaVPaVSNiah QddnGoVp1l1d9mVRlmZbDqVlqtpsjuZbxWVtfpJscmZW5OZe8hNWFOZtcmYS9ZNw7mZw9mZn uiVzNqdzPucnBQQAOw== --------------72AC2D2360E6-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 03:55:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA21863; Thu, 1 May 1997 03:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33687557.2343 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 20:19:59 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robin van Spaandonk CC: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest References: <33672D92.35C microtronics.com.au> <336d2019.25355493@mail.eisa.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qq0973.0.TL5.jO7Qp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 21:01:30 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: > [snip] > >It is my intention for the basic technology of the unit to be available > >to any and all by way of a upfront fee (depending on usage) and royality > >fee (based on power generated). Everything from a home generator to a > >power station. > Hi Greg, > > If by "based on power generated" you mean "based on power generating > capacity", then I wish you well. This is my intent. > However I would consider any attempt > to earn ongoing royalties from the "sale" of any energy generated to > be an example of the worst kind of ripoff. Please make your intentions > clear. I want the technology to be available to all. I never expected ANY mpney from the generation of power. The license fee will be based on that you wish to do. IE any user who wishes to build a unit would pay a one time fee for use of the technology and a ongoing fee based on the size and number of generators they wish to build. I have NEVER had any intention to "TAX" energy generation. > "Free-energy" has always been a dream of mine, and of many > others, yourself included (I suspect). It is my dream too................ > To now want to charge for it > would bear witness to greed beyond measure, because the profits from > manufacturing and sale of the equipment alone would make you the > richest man on earth anyway. Rich to the point you wouldn't know what > to do with the money. I plan to have many others who will share in the dream. I am not turned on by money. Never have been. > PS You can see by the effect this has on me, what effect it may also > have on others. Hi Robin, I thank you for being so straight. Sorry for not being clearer. I have reposted your post. I think it is important to share your concerns with others. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 06:35:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA17996; Thu, 1 May 1997 06:33:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 06:33:58 -0700 Date: 01 May 97 09:32:15 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: First Frogs...now Cows Message-ID: <970501133215_100433.1541_BHG27-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"fNhT.0.6P4.5l9Qp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts, Vorts >From yesterday's "Daily Mirror"..... "Boat is sunk by herd of flying cows A fishing boat sank like a stone after it was bombed by a herd of flying cows. They fell out of the sky from 20,000 ft right into the middle of a Japanese flotilla. Crewmen watched in amazement as one cow ploughed straight through their ship's deck and hull, creating a massive hole which sank the vessel. No one was killed - but all the crew were arrested when they reported the bizarre bombing. They were accused by disbelieving officials of plotting an insurance scam. But their story was confirmed when a gang of cash-hungry Russian soldiers owned up. They commandeered an army transport plane to do a bit of rustling. But when the cows became agitated in mid-air, the soldiers feared they would stampede and opened the rear doors to save themselves. And the cows jumped to their deaths just as the Japanese fishing fleet was sailing below off the island of Sakhalin. A startled fisherman said: "One moment we were fishing without a care in the world. In the next, we were being bombed by cows.". The story was confirmed by the German Embassy in Moscow yesterday." - Chris (actually, it's Soo and not Chris) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 06:59:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA05608; Thu, 1 May 1997 06:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 06:52:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705010846.ZM18759 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:46:15 -0500 In-Reply-To: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) "Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE?" (Apr 30, 8:08pm) References: <199704302312.QAA26884 mx1.eskimo.com> <3367EE18.108C@gorge.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RUBBER BAND HEAT ENGINE? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"_qcgG1.0.XN1.m0AQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Apr 30, 8:08pm, Tom Miller wrote: > Most likely, though, the wheel is best left in its simplest > state, or maybe try to enhance efficiency by careful decisions > about working fluid, and tank configuration. For instance, > increasing the tank surface area (fins?) should aid heat > excahnge, hence efficiency. Maybe some kind of cloth blanket, > to hold more water to evaporate? The beauty of this device is it's simplicity. IMO, the biggest restriction on widespread use of this device is it's dependance on water. Evaporative cooling is great if you have the resource. A looped solar convection heater/refrigerant cycle and a good radiant coil configuration is the ticket to make this thing practical and fully regenetive. The rest is simple thermal dynamics and mechanical engineering. -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 07:10:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA21208; Thu, 1 May 1997 07:04:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 07:04:49 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 06:08:55 -0800 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, Robin van Spaandonk From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"VubOG1.0.8B5.0CAQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 8:19 PM 5/1/97, Greg Watson wrote: [snip] > >I want the technology to be available to all. I never expected ANY >mpney from the generation of power. > >The license fee will be based on that you wish to do. IE any user who >wishes to build a unit would pay a one time fee for use of the >technology and a ongoing fee based on the size and number of generators >they wish to build. > [snip] This is all premature isn't it? Until the loop is closed and the experiment independently replicated, there's nothing to sell reputably, is there? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 07:56:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA12044; Thu, 1 May 1997 07:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 07:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 06:56:16 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: 2D vs 3D modelling questions Resent-Message-ID: <"xKVeD1.0.1y2.utAQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "I may have made some progress in understanding the problem. It *is* a 2D vs 3D problem. The problem occurs when there is an E field opposing the direction of drift. Electons moving in, say, the z direction do not drift at all, thus are totally under the influence of the E field and thus both accelerate backwards and simultaneously reduce their probability of capture by a dopant so as to be ratcheted." On further thinkng, in the case of the TEDD, I don't think there is much of a difference on average between doing a 3D simulation and then projecting the results to a 2D representation vs doing a 2D model with browninan motion added. That is because the B field is constant with direction numbers (0,1,0). Lorentz forces act only in the xy plane. Also, unless electrons get very close, their direct interaction is greatly sheilded by the latice, and in particular by local phonons generated by the moving electrons. One 3D vs 2D difference is that, in the 2D projection, collision momenta are not preserved. However, on average, momenta will be preserved because eventually z momenta are eventually translated back to the xy plane. My average particle energy calculation may be off because it should start with 2/3 the average kinetic energy due to loss of 1 degree of freedom when projected into the xy plane. Is this true? Another difference is that in a purely 2D model, direct particle interations can not be modelled due to the fact that their distance is unknown. Two particles in the xy projection might appear co-located, but be far apart in the z direction. Also, in a 2D model, hitting the wall in the z direction can not be directly simulated. It seems, though, that the z axis can be ignored and all the 3D phenomena above can be simulated by simply applying random Brownian motion to the particles in the xy projection. True? About particles moving only in the z direction: these are adequately simulated by an xy plane particle with 0 velocity. An electron in an x electrostatic gradient would accelerate in the x direction. However the motion would begin immediately to be translated into epicylic motion which would begin the effect of drift. The ratchet mechanism of low energy dopant binding, plus wall rebounds, would permit, on average, added kinetic energy, and thus permit the electron continuing in the -x direction, against the electrostatic gradient, True? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 07:58:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA25228; Thu, 1 May 1997 07:47:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 07:47:48 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: First Frogs...now Cows Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:47:11 +0000 Message-ID: <19970501144709.AAA4380 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"ZfdwH3.0.5A6.JqAQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:32 PM 5/1/97 +0000, Soo wrote: >Gnorts, Vorts > >A fishing boat sank like a stone after it was bombed by a herd of flying cows. >They fell out of the sky from 20,000 ft right into the middle of a Japanese >flotilla. > >A startled fisherman said: "One moment we were fishing without a care in the >world. In the next, we were being bombed by cows.". > > >- Chris >(actually, it's Soo and not Chris) > What you have here Soo, is a classical case of an udder disaster, aggravated by falling beef prices, which would impact seafood, causing a temporary dip. However, in the long swim, I would sink my money into seafood, because, the beef brokers tend to really soak you, especially for dried beef.... :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 10:06:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA14499; Thu, 1 May 1997 09:57:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:57:19 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:59:43 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: re: Magnetic Forces Resent-Message-ID: <"YISKL3.0.QY3.kjCQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Greg, > >Very interesting data. Thanks for sharing it. What are the units on >the attached graph? When I detached the graph, there were no units snip--- >this information really is what it appears to be, how can we exploit >this force difference to do work? > >Maybe you are already doing this? > >Regards, >Gene Batten >mdleb nortel.ca > snip--- >> >> The result is not what I would have expected. I expected the opposing >> results to be the greatest. Just goes to show that magnets do strange >> things. Suspect the weak opposing results were due to the magnets being >> driven down their B/H curves and reducing their flux output. >> >> Enjoy. >> -- >> Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >> Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax >> 61 18 833 461 Mobile Dear List members, With respect to the inequality of Attraction/Repulsion forces --- To quote from page 91 [Chapter 16, GRAVITY, The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman, originally published 1984]: "Section 29-C "The unlike charges will see to obtain the least possible distance between themselves with respect to the two, separate masses; and the like charges will seek to obtain the greatest possible distance between themselves with respect to the two separate masses. [Remember that the charges being simultaneously repelled are also being simultaneously attracted and such charges cannot physically move far from one another.] "Consider the implication of the Inverse-Square Law with respect to the attracting or repelling force of charges. The most dominant forces are those _between_ the charges existing _within_ each separate mass. Consequently, THE ATTRACTION FORCE IS GREATER THAN THE REPULSION FORCE between the two separate masses -- but (as an order of magnitude) _this difference is unimaginably small_. [A simple mathematical analogy demonstrates this "unimaginably small" difference: If we assign to equal attraction and repulsion forces a "unity of 1," then the difference (in the attracting forces being greater than the repulsion forces) would be an extremely small percentage of such "unity of 1," e.g., only .0001.] "Such a small difference is clearly demonstrated by the fact that the attraction force of Gravity (the observed _effect_ of the interaction of unobserved electromagnetic fields comprising Matter) is _extremely less_ than the ("unity of 1") attraction/repulsion forces of _Obvious_ electrical charges as well as those same forces (gyroscopic-action-particles) which comprise magnetic fields or Matter itself. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "As a result of such Unequaling Forces, the ATTRACTION FORCE IS ALWAYS MINUTELY GREATER THAN THE REPULSION FORCE." * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "Section 29-D. "I hypothesize that the following represents the Law of Gravity with respect to the Inverse-square Law: The difference in the Unequaling Forces (in accordance with the law of distances sought between "like" and "unlike" gyroscopic-action-particles) of the two, above-mentioned masses causes a Force of Gravity to be a very small percentage (example only: .0001 of a "unity of 1") of the equally attracting and repulsion forces having a "unity of 1." [Refer to Section 25-E.] "Such equal forces (with a "unity of 1") represent a balance of all the "negative" and "positive" gyroscopic-action-particles comprising all Matter. [I remind the reader that such "negative" and "positive" gyroscopic-action-particles are actually composed of only one type of gyroscopic-action-entity which appears to move in opposite directions depending upon the frame of reference of the observer.] "As a result of such Unequaling Forces, the ATTRACTION force is always MINUTELY GREATER than the REPULSION force. Such an inequality of forces is still incredibly less than the attraction/repulsion forces of _Obvious_ electric charges or magnetism which have a "unity (force) of 1." "NOTE: For the convenience of expression, I am arbitrarily assigning this "unity (force) of 1" value to electric charges and magnetism in order to provide the reader with some subjective means to distinguish such forces from the very weak gravitational force which would have --- as an order of magnitude --- a value of approximately .0001 based upon the above forces having a value of "1." --- Joseph Newman Posted by: Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html ".... the magnetic field consists of gyroscopic-type particles which are the mechanical essence of E=mc^2 and represent an orderly flow of kinetic energy." --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 13:07:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA15542; Thu, 1 May 1997 13:03:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:03:02 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Scudder,Henry J" To: Robert Stirniman , Vortex-L Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:00:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"i7m112.0.mo3.qRFQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Unidentified subject! Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert A difference of 0.1421 with a standard deviation of .0713 has a "t-statistic" or signal to noise level of 1.9846. Looking up in my statistical tables shows a significance at the 95% confidence level, but not at the 97.5% level. Prob(T t95% is 1.812 for 10 degrees of freedom, and t97.5% is 2.228. It is enough to be interesting, but the probability of a noisy signal doing this is still about one part in 20. Much more experimental data needs to be collected here. Hank Scudder ____________________________________________ Abstract: Free-fall experiment of a spinning gyro enclosed in a capsule has been conducted in order to investigate the effect of an object's spinning on the fall-acceleration. For ten runs of the fall-acceleration measurements, in which each run consists of the left, right and zero spinning about the vertical axis, it has been shown that the mean value of the right-spinning is significantly smaller than of the left-spinning at 18,000 rpm, with the latter being almost identical with of zero spinning. The result suggests that the right-spinning generates anti-gravity, and also that the parity (the reflection symmetry) of gravity breaks down completely. ================================================================= Summary of Experiment (by R. Stirniman): A gyroscope spinning at 18 thosand rpm is contained in a capsule and dropped through a vertical distance of about 170 cm. The fall of the capsule is accurately timed as it cuts through laser beams at three different heights. The experiment is conducted over a large number of trials at 10 different dates over the course of three months. A right spinning gyroscope (clockwise as viewed from the top) is found to fall more slowly than a left spinning gyroscope, or a non-spinning gyroscope. A left spinning and non-spinning gyroscope are found to fall at essentially the same rate. The average of the acceleration over all the experimental trials is determined to be: g(L) = 980.0687 cm/sec/sec, with an error of +/- 0.0663 g(R) = 979.9266 cm/sec/sec, with an error of +/- 0.0716 A difference of 0.1421 cm/sec/sec between right and left spinning. Its a startling finding, and also a very small amount of difference. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 15:23:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA19457; Thu, 1 May 1997 15:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336913AB.6CAA skylink.net> Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 15:05:31 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 2nd Tohoku A-G Experiment References: <3367AD20.4108 oultons.nb.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oiUU42.0.ul4.wFHQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steven Jones writes about the Tohoku anti-gravity experiment. > I am wondering if this experiment will get the opposite results if it > were performed in the southern hemisphere. (i.e. the left-spinning > gyroscope would generate anti-gravity and the right-spinning would not.) Yes. When you see words in the original paper like -- counterclockwise as viewed from the top. Maybe we need to ask, the top relative to what? There might be some ignorant people in the southern hemisphere who don't realize that when they are looking up they are actually looking down. Somehow the results of the 2nd Tohoku experiment seem connected with the spin of the earth. The experimenters rule out spin-spin coupling, and also state that the gyroscope experiences no significant precession or nutation during its fall, because it is spinning very fast and it is oriented nearly perfectly vertically. Here we should ask again -- vertically with respect to what? The earth is not a fixed platform. It is turning. The gyroscope will try to hold its orientation in absolute space. Hence, even during the short time of the fall (0.53 seconds) there will be some twist in the axis. There will also be torques set-up, and dimensional twisting within the tolerances in the bearings during the time that the gyroscope is held in the fixture prior to dropping it. During this time the gyroscope will wish to precess into alignment with the earth's polar axis. This precession torque will be much higher in the case where the gyroscope is spinning opposite the direction of the earth (which is spinning counter-clockwise as viewed from the "top"). By the way, there is a working practical invention which uses gyroscopic principles to tap energy from the inertial rotation of the earth. In my opinion, inventions which tap significant amounts of energy from the earth's rotation should be strictly prohibited. In effect this type of invention slows down the earth's rotation by a small amount, and it also: might shift the orientation of the polar axis, converts angular momentum from the body of the earth to waste heat and possibly results in abnormal wind and weather conditions, might produce aberrant stresses and strains in the planetary crust, and might interfere with the balance between the earth's magnetic field and mechanical rotation. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 15:31:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA22009; Thu, 1 May 1997 15:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336917DB.597C skylink.net> Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 15:23:23 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PuxpS.0.nN5.hWHQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scudder,Henry J wrote: > A difference of 0.1421 with a standard deviation of .0713 has a > "t-statistic" or signal to noise level > of 1.9846. Looking up in my statistical tables shows a significance at > the 95% confidence level, but not at the 97.5% level. > Prob(T t95% is 1.812 for 10 degrees of freedom, and t97.5% is > 2.228. Henry. They ran trials on 10 different dates, but they ran more than one trial on each date -- so maybe something like 50 to 100 degrees of freedom. I think the experiment is probably statistially significant, but might be flawed in methodology. Possibly there is a classical explanation via interaction with the spin of the earth. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 16:20:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA24536; Thu, 1 May 1997 15:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:40:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Carlos Henry Castano From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Cell Contact Potentials Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:39:12 +0000 Message-ID: <19970501223910.AAA10546 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"OxIgW1.0.9_5.hlHQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:07 PM 5/1/97 +0000, Carlos Henry Castano wrote: >On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >> Might I suggest measuring the cell potential with the power supply >> removed temporalmente por alg`un momento? And noting the polarity. > >Yes, I will do, but in this moment I can't because my adquisition system >of data not work, and I haven't assembled my cells.... > > >> Then possibly measure the current flow with a ?ohms resistance >> across the cell terminals, perhaps? > >Hmmm, yes no problem, however think that if the excess of heat in a cell >are coming from chemical energy stored in your electrolite or electrodes, >we will seeing chemical ash (in quiatities proportionals to energy freed). I agree Carlos. To Speculate. :-) If the heat in the cell is coming from non-chemical reactions: 1, 3.4 to 6.8 ev photons from chemical reactions create; a 1.7 ev positive electron and a 1.7 ev negative electron. 2, A 1.7 ev negative electron absorbed by a proton (or deuteron); this "light electron" can go in close to the proton or deuteron and release 256 KeV of energy, possibly in bursts and also create more "light" electron-positron pairs and the small "Hydrino". 3, The potential V of an electron at a distance R from a proton or deuteron; V = k*q/2*R*n^2 k = 1/[4*(pi)*eo] = 8.99E9 eo is the permittivity of space, 8.85E-12 Farads/meter n = an integer 1, 2, 3, etc., for any possible orbit below the Bohr ground state orbit with radius Ro. (5.3E-11 meters) q = the fundamental unit of charge, 1.6E-19 coulombs c = the velocity of light in vacuum, 2.997925E8 meters/second mo = the rest mass of the light electron (kg) Mr = the relativistic mass of the light electron (kg) 4, v = velocity of the light electron at potential V, = c*{1-1/[q*V/(mo*c^2)+1]^2}^1/2 (meters/second) 5, relativistic gamma for the light electron = 1/(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2 or simply (q*V/mo*c^2) + 1 6, Force electrostatic Fes = k*q^2/R^2 (newtons) 7, Force centrifugal Fc = Mr*v^2/R (newtons) 8, Larmor synchrotron radiation loss or photon output, W = [0.66*k*q^2*a^2/c^3]*(1-v^2/c^2)^-4 (joules) a = acceleration = v^2/R This could explain anomalous heat without any nuclear fusion signatures, except if the Hydrino or Deutrino is absorbed on occasion? Best Regards, Frederick > >best regards, >Carlos Henry. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 17:08:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA24924; Thu, 1 May 1997 17:00:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 17:00:26 -0700 Message-ID: <33692EB7.5A27 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 20:00:55 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 2nd Tohoku A-G Experiment References: <3367AD20.4108 oultons.nb.ca> <336913AB.6CAA@skylink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_Pu-d3.0.M56.QwIQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Stirniman wrote: > (snip) In my opinion, inventions which tap significant > amounts of energy from the earth's rotation should be strictly > prohibited. Hey, I agree, Robert! If I calculated right, our present energy use rate, if all from earth rotational energy, would stop the earth in 804 years - assuming constant draw per year! DON'T STOP THE EARTH, I WANT TO STAY ON!! Frank Stenger PS: I got about 2.5 x 10^23 joules of rotational energy for a uniform density earth (not so, I know) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 19:27:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA13630; Thu, 1 May 1997 19:18:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 19:18:48 -0700 Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 21:18:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705020218.VAA16822 dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: Re: First Frogs...now Cows To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"jIScp.0.uK3.7yKQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: May 2, 1997 Russia and Japan never did sign the peace treaty yet on WWII so the bombing run with cows probably was deliberate. Interesting how the story varies with the media reporting. As fowarded by Mandeville earlier on this vortex, it was some Russian air force transport crew trying to take off with a single cow which they had to dump. A Russian version of the Mad Cow syndrome. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 19:41:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA27366; Thu, 1 May 1997 19:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 19:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33695098.684E microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 11:55:28 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7CoHJ.0.Jh6.u3LQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 8:19 PM 5/1/97, Greg Watson wrote: > [snip] > > > >I want the technology to be available to all. I never expected ANY > >mpney from the generation of power. > > > >The license fee will be based on that you wish to do. IE any user who > >wishes to build a unit would pay a one time fee for use of the > >technology and a ongoing fee based on the size and number of generators > >they wish to build. > > > [snip] > > This is all premature isn't it? Until the loop is closed and the > experiment independently replicated, there's nothing to sell reputably, is > there? > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hi Horace, I agree, thats why I asked for expressions of interest and NOT MONEY. I hope to be able to generate enough interest to be able to take the device to the next stage using the talents and money which exist with-in these groups. My request for expressions of interest was to judge the amount and level of support available. I am not asking for your money Horace, only a expression of your interest. If I can't deliver, its my face which will wear the egg. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 19:58:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA00107; Thu, 1 May 1997 19:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 19:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3369558A.C9 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 12:16:34 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic Forces References: <199705011518.AAA11145 orca.microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4bakv.0.fK7.PNLQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gene Batten wrote: > > Greg, > > Very interesting data. Thanks for sharing it. What are the units on > the attached graph? When I detached the graph, there were no units > listed on the graph. It would be helpful to know if you are using > inches, centemeters, pounds, etc. My guess is that you are using > metric units. Magnets / ferrite was 10cm thick, 15cm wide and 100cm long. The x axis (spacing) is in Cms. The y axis (force) is in Newtons > Could you also share how you obtained this data? I have no reason > to doubt it, I just wonder about the relative accuracy. The data was from Quick Field simulations and backed up by actual (simple) testing. > I have always suspected that the attraction and repulsive forces of > magnets were not equal, but I never tried to measure it. The reduction in opposing forces is due to the magnets being forced down their B/H curves and therefore reducing their face generated field strength. The attractive forces drive the magnets up their B/H curves and increase their face generated field strengths. What really suprised me was the opposing plot tracks the ferromagnetic plot. I suspect the use of stiffer magnetic material would generate plots closer together. > Your data indicates a rather significant difference between attraction > and repulsion forces (if I understand your chart correctly). So, if > this information really is what it appears to be, how can we exploit > this force difference to do work? > > Maybe you are already doing this? > > Regards, > Gene Batten -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 20:16:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA01975; Thu, 1 May 1997 20:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 20:09:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:11:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: FYI Resent-Message-ID: <"Af3it3.0.jU.lhLQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: List Members: I relay the following important message to you from Dr, Woolman. Please read, note the new URL and lets take this campaign to the next level. This push will hopefully accomplish the amending of the current Senate patent bill to come in line with the recently passed House version. Let's let all the Senate get the message loud and clear. Tucson Kid pmurray azstarnet.com Blazing Barrels Posts Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 18:09:30 +0100 From: "R. Daniel Woolman" Reply-To: woolman in-search-of.com Organization: In Search Of. . . To: InventorsD aol.com Subject: On S 507 - ISO E-mail campaign Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, This will be my last post to you concerning Senate Bill S 507. We have sent a total of 300 individual letters to every member of the Senate Judiciary in the last two days. The total number of letters thus far mailed on this effort now stands at 5,400. It is now time to include the full senate in our efforts. I have rewritten the initial letter sent to the Judiciary. It appears that either John Ashcroft, or Fred Thompson, or perhaps even both may consider an amendment to S 507. This is only my opinion and can not be substantiated at this time. The new ISO E-mail page for the Judiciary is: http://www.in-search-of.com/frames/government/campaign/s507.shtml Additionally, I have placed a letter written for the entire US Senate concerning our opposition at: http://www.in-search-of.com/frames/government/campaign/s507_senate.shtml So, it is now time to come back to ISO and mail to the US Senate Judiciary and the full US Senate! I apologize to those of you who did not want to receive this mail. Most respectfully, R. Daniel Woolman, Ph.D. -- http://www.in-search-of.com/directory.shtml From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 20:24:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA21522; Thu, 1 May 1997 20:18:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 20:18:22 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970501231334.00ad86c0 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 23:13:36 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Quinney Subject: Re: First Frogs...now Cows Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZYLME1.0.CG5.zpLQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:18 PM 5/1/97 -0500, you guys wrote: >May 2, 1997 > >Russia and Japan never did sign the peace treaty yet on WWII so the >bombing run with cows probably was deliberate. > I do not find these stories very mooving. In fact, they are sort of cheesy. I wish you would stop milking it, and just drop them. The whey those poor Japanese fisherman were almost creamed must have really shaken them up...and they were probably accused of cowering too. ( I'll Betsy :-) Colin Quinney, Toronto Canada. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 21:19:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA30090; Thu, 1 May 1997 21:13:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 21:13:04 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <33695098.684E microtronics.com.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:12:20 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest Resent-Message-ID: <"Z7pt11.0.4M7.FdMQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg - > My request for expressions of interest was > to judge the amount and level of support > available. Greg, I doubt the level of interest is any higher than you see now it because it's already pressed pretty hard up against the ceiling! This is the reason many people have joined these lists in the first place, to see if such things are possible and to find out how they might be constructed, tested, and ultimately exploited to provide cheap/"free" energy to the world. It's why I'm here. I think we're *all* very interested. But what can we do? Apparently as of this moment you still have patent and secrecy considerations on the technology, and perhaps you are not completely sure that you've got a working model on your hands which unequivocally shows an overunity effect. We ordinary list denizens really can't do anything about it until you've got things to the point where you are completely comfortable and confident of *demonstrable & duplicable* OU and of showing it publically at least, if not putting various people here under NDA and sending working models or plans. What's *your* plan with this? What's *your* schedule? I've been on the edge of my seat here for weeks now waiting to see the triumphant messages about how you've closed the loop and it keeps going like that damn pink rabbit. You've got all the interest and attention you need here, IMO. You've got labs like EarthTech and people like Gene/Jed/Chris and other qualified scientists and engineers who I'm sure would love to measure and verify what you've got. The rest of us (like me) can be your cheering section. When you're ready, I'm sure the folks on this list will be too. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 1 22:34:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA19481; Thu, 1 May 1997 22:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:29:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: fstenger interlaced.net From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: 2nd Tohoku A-G Experiment Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:25:31 +0000 Message-ID: <19970502052529.AAA13909 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"vWcnx1.0.Im4.dkNQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:00 AM 5/2/97 +0000, you wrote: >Robert Stirniman wrote: >> >(snip) > > In my opinion, inventions which tap significant >> amounts of energy from the earth's rotation should be strictly >> prohibited. > >Hey, I agree, Robert! If I calculated right, our present energy use >rate, if all from earth rotational energy, would stop the earth in >804 years - assuming constant draw per year! DON'T STOP THE EARTH, I >WANT TO STAY ON!! > >Frank Stenger > >PS: I got about 2.5 x 10^23 joules of rotational energy for a uniform > density earth (not so, I know) I get for rotational K.E = .5*I*2(pi)*f^2 I = 2/5*MR^2 or about 2.57E29 joule (about what it would take to spin Venus up to a one-day day). :-) At one quad/day, 1E18 joule/day world energy about 700 million years to extract that rotational energy. BTW. 1E18 joule is the annihilatation energy of 10 kilograms of matter. The sun annihilates 4.3 million tonnes per second. OUch! :-) You are still arriving such that I have to cc vortex, I don't know why. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 04:06:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA09803; Fri, 2 May 1997 04:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:01:45 +0200 (METDST) Message-Id: <199705021101.NAA07549 imaginet.fr> X-Sender: lentin mail2.imaginet.fr X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jean-Pierre Lentin Subject: TV program in France Resent-Message-ID: <"PlUg32.0.1P2.scSQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians This is to announce, specially for Vortexians from France and Belgium, the airing of our documentary about new energy and alternative science, saturday may 10th, 13 h 30, on the TV channel Canal Plus (in a weekly series called L=92=9Cil du cyclone / Eye of the cyclone). The film is called =AB Ils vont sauver la planete ! =BB (They=92re going to= save the planet ! ). It features Martin Fleischmann, Jim Griggs, Frank Stenger & Frank Znidarsic, Hal Fox, Teruo Kawai, Reidar Finsrud, Stanley Meyer, James E. Bare, Gaston Naessens, Arthur C. Clarke and French researchers Jacques Benveniste, Joel Sternheimer, Guy Arnaud and Gilles Thuny. Thank you to every one who helped ! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jean-Pierre Lentin lentin imaginet.fr --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 04:44:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA08928; Fri, 2 May 1997 04:43:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:43:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3369D316.5665 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 21:12:14 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jNqXz3.0.NB2.BDTQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Greg - > > > My request for expressions of interest was > > to judge the amount and level of support > > available. > > Greg, I doubt the level of interest is any higher than you see now it > because it's already pressed pretty hard up against the ceiling! This is > the reason many people have joined these lists in the first place, to see > if such things are possible and to find out how they might be constructed, > tested, and ultimately exploited to provide cheap/"free" energy to the > world. It's why I'm here. I think we're *all* very interested. But what can > we do? Apparently as of this moment you still have patent and secrecy > considerations on the technology, and perhaps you are not completely sure > that you've got a working model on your hands which unequivocally shows an > overunity effect. We ordinary list denizens really can't do anything about > it until you've got things to the point where you are completely > comfortable and confident of *demonstrable & duplicable* OU and of showing > it publically at least, if not putting various people here under NDA and > sending working models or plans. > > What's *your* plan with this? What's *your* schedule? I've been on the edge > of my seat here for weeks now waiting to see the triumphant messages about > how you've closed the loop and it keeps going like that damn pink rabbit. > > You've got all the interest and attention you need here, IMO. You've got > labs like EarthTech and people like Gene/Jed/Chris and other qualified > scientists and engineers who I'm sure would love to measure and verify what > you've got. The rest of us (like me) can be your cheering section. When > you're ready, I'm sure the folks on this list will be too. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI Hi Rick, Thanks for the genuine comments. Looks like I have been too close to this thing. Maybe I can't see the woods for the trees. I have explained the results I am getting with my linear model. I ask for feedback as to where and / or how I may be making a mistake. I ask for feedback as to how I can improve my test setup. But the only feedback I get is "CLOSE THE LOOP". I can show a real energy gain and I ask for comment on where the energy may be coming from. What do I get, "CLOSE THE LOOP". I express concern for the cost of using this energy and ask for comment. "CLOSE THE LOOP" comes back. When I do close the loop, with all respect, don't need the unit to be tested to tell me its working. Any pair of Mark 1 human eyes will do the job very well. I asked for feedback to involve ALL of you in this. I expected more than just a group of "CLOSE THE LOOP" lurkers. Thats why I asked for expressions of interest. I am trying to sort the interest. Maybe I am too close and have got this reply all wrong. I don't want to offend anyone. If I do, I apologize in advance. You probably don't realize how much I value the feedback from this group (both positive and negative). But I get so little. I set up a special interest group to discuss and duplicate elements of the device my patent attorney will allow me to disclose without choping my keyboard cable. But even with them I can only go so far, although some are getting warm. I have done a business plan and cash flow for the first 12 months and will be looking at raising around US $750,000. I still hope to be able to raise that much from here. I want to keep this thing as public as possible. I would rather have 500 investors at $1,500 each than 1 at $750,000. Large investors are hard to work with as they know the golden rule, IE.... "He Who Has The Gold, Makes The Rules". Remember: NONE OF US IS AS SMART AS ALL OF US. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 05:06:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA15905; Fri, 2 May 1997 05:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:04:50 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 2nd Tohoku A-G Experiment Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 12:02:04 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <336ad4f1.48111471 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <19970502052529.AAA13909 LOCALNAME> In-Reply-To: <19970502052529.AAA13909 LOCALNAME> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uuFK43.0.Ru3.VXTQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 2 May 1997 05:25:31 +0000, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >I get for rotational K.E = .5*I*2(pi)*f^2 I = 2/5*MR^2 > or about 2.57E29 joule (about what it would take to spin > Venus up to a one-day day). :-) It might be interesting to compare this to the amount lost to the moon every day. And also lost to the tides (friction). [snip] > >You are still arriving such that I have to cc vortex, I don't know why. This may be because Frank has his "reply to" field filled in with his own email address. I *think* that when posting to a list server it works better if you leave this field blank. > >Regards, Frederick > Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 05:28:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA17405; Fri, 2 May 1997 05:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:26:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Nuclear Self-Remediation Experiment Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:25:35 +0000 Message-ID: <19970502122532.AAA26944 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"ZYKDC.0.sF4._rTQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex: A national laboratory has agreed to run an experiment to see if a water soluble salt of radioactive Cs-137 will clean itself up in the presence of a water-soluble salt of potassium. The Cesium 137 with a half-life of 30.3 years has a decay energy of 1.174 MeV (a 0.514 MeV beta-minus and a 0.616 MeV Barium K X-Ray). The intent is to use an aqueous sample of Cs 137 as a control to compare it's decay rate with the decay rate of a Cs 137 sample containing the water-soluble potassium salt, over an extended period. If there is any significant change detected, a similar experiment will be conducted using D2O. Hypothesis: If the energy from the Cesium decay forms a "Hydrino" and the Hydrino is absorbed by a cesium 137 atom, the compound nucleus should become a stable Barium 138 atom thus lowering the radioactivity of the sample. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 06:55:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA24445; Fri, 2 May 1997 06:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 06:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3369F174.63DA interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 09:51:48 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 2nd Tohoku A-G Experiment References: <19970502052529.AAA13909 LOCALNAME> <336ad4f1.48111471@mail.eisa.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bo2Cn.0.qz5.h5VQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > (snip) > This may be because Frank has his "reply to" field filled in with his > own email address. I *think* that when posting to a list server it > works better if you leave this field blank. > No, Robin - but in Netscape Mail, I do have vortex-l's address in the "Mail To:" field. I have the Cc: field blank. Is this right? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 07:29:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA27638 for billb@eskimo.com; Fri, 2 May 1997 07:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:29:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: woods mail.weird.com Fri May 2 07:29:14 1997 Received: from most.weird.com (root most.weird.com [204.92.254.2]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA27578; Fri, 2 May 1997 07:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by most.weird.com via sendmail with stdio id for freenrg-l eskimo.com; Fri, 2 May 1997 10:28:27 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2.0.95-Pre 1997-Apr-22 #29 built 1997-Apr-25) Message-Id: Old-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:28:27 -0400 (EDT) From: woods most.weird.com (Greg A. Woods) To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest In-Reply-To: Greg Watson's message of "Fri, May 2, 1997 21:12:14 +0930" regarding "Re: Expressions of Interest" id <3369D316.5665 microtronics.com.au> References: <3369D316.5665 microtronics.com.au> Reply-To: woods weird.com (Greg A. Woods) X-Mailer: ViewMail (vm) Version 5.96 (beta) with GNU Emacs 19.34.1 (m68k.68881-sun-sunos4.1.1, X toolkit) of Thu Sep 12 1996 on most Organization: Planix, Inc.; Toronto, Ontario; Canada X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: [ On Fri, May 2, 1997 at 21:12:14 (+0930), Greg Watson wrote: ] > Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest > > I express concern for the cost of using this energy and ask for > comment. "CLOSE THE LOOP" comes back. I assure you I to would rather know the source of the energy than to just explit it unknowingly! BTW, in recent recreational reading on an entirely different subject I've found reference to papers by Ralph E. Juergens who writes (in these instances) about the effect of the Sun's electrical field on the rotation of the Earth. He claims there have been measurements made by Andre Danjon in 1960 and by Plagmann and Gribbin in 1972 that show the rotation of the Earth has been temporarily slowed down (by microseconds) during the effect of large solar flares. [in a journal called Kronos, Volume II, 2, pp. 15-16 and 3, pp. 12-15] Perhaps what you're observing is a similar or related effect. I've no idea what this might imply, but if these guys are right, and your effect is related, the consequences could be quite devastating, if only on a longer term. (NOTE: I know little or nothing of the journal Kronos, though I understand it is a peer review publication. Be skeptical. I've only read small quotations from these papers.) -- Greg A. Woods +1 416 443-1734 VE3TCP robohack!woods Planix, Inc. ; Secrets of the Weird From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 07:31:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA24635; Fri, 2 May 1997 07:29:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:29:16 -0700 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.251.148 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <336913AB.6CAA skylink.net> References: <3367AD20.4108 oultons.nb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:29:06 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: 2nd Tohoku A-G Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"PdWxT1.0.r06.xeVQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In Re to Robert Stirniman' posting: >By the way, there is a working practical invention which uses >gyroscopic principles to tap energy from the inertial rotation >of the earth. In my opinion, inventions which tap significant >amounts of energy from the earth's rotation should be strictly >prohibited. In effect this type of invention slows down the >earth's rotation by a small amount, and it also: might shift No such invention can possibly work because of conservation of angular momentum. If the Earth's rotation slows down then the angular momentum would decrease and that is not allowed. Only if angular momentum is exchanged with some third body orbiting the Earth, like the Moon, such that the total is constant could this idea work. Through the years there have been many schemes like this proposed and they all don't involve the Moon and they all don't work. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 08:16:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA01893; Fri, 2 May 1997 08:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:08:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:10:06 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nuclear Self-Remediation Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"tb9Is2.0.UT.jDWQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: F. Sparber wrote: >Hypothesis: If the energy from the Cesium decay forms a "Hydrino" >and the Hydrino is absorbed by a cesium 137 atom, the compound nucleus >should become a stable Barium 138 atom ..... You are making a new proton from this reaction. That requires almost 1000 MeV. Where will that come from? Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 08:23:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA31806; Fri, 2 May 1997 08:19:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:19:44 -0700 Date: 02 May 97 11:17:43 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo" Cc: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270 compuserve.com> Subject: John Hutchison Message-ID: <970502151743_76016.2701_JHC62-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"kgZ483.0.um7.FOWQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts! Yesterday's installment of Strange Universe (shown at 2:30 am in the Atlanta market) did a segment on John Hutchison and his anti-gravity experiments. Please do not fire up your flame throwers, even a show like SU can offer some insight. John is now living in Vancouver, BC in a small apartment full of 60's vintage electronic equipment. (His bed is elevated off the floor to make room for his gear ). Clips of objects of metal and wood apparently being levitated were included in the show. According to John, he had successfully demonstrated anti-gravity under funding from the Canadian government when that government came and shut him down. However, John implied that the reason for his shut-down might have been more because of his successes in the "free energy" field than AG. One physicist (I don't have the name, but the show is on tape if anyone wants the name) said that he visited John to try to understand how his AG experiment worked. He verified that objects were indeed levitated; but, could not provide a technical explanation for why others could not replicate John's work. Well, he did offer an explanation -- he said that he believed that Hutchison himself was critical to the successful levitation of objects -- that John's observation or thoughts were somehow playing a part in the experiment (He called it the "Hutchison Effect"). John acknowledged this saying that it could be that the intense fields he had worked in could have somehow modified his brain. Bizarre, eh??!? I have located a firm which sells the Hutchison video and have ordered their catalog. I'll post the information on the list when it arrives. Note to Gene Mallove: I think you could do an interesting article on this in IE! Is there anyone on the list in Vancouver who could look up John Hutchison? (spelled correctly) If not, he could probably be contacted through the producers of SU (www.rysher.com/strangeuniverse). Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 09:50:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA11298; Fri, 2 May 1997 09:36:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 09:36:22 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC56DC.0EEE66B0 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: permanent? magnets Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 09:34:39 -0700 Encoding: 8 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"Gh81b1.0.Sm2.5WXQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A while back someone asked if there have been any studies on permanent magnets that have been in use for a long time, to see what changes may have occurred. I don't recall seeing any response to that. PM electric motors and the like have been around for a long time now, so it seems we should have some information about long-term effects. Does anyone know of such information? Dan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 10:12:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA18908; Fri, 2 May 1997 10:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:02:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Nuclear Self-Remediation Experiment Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:01:11 +0000 Message-ID: <19970502170109.AAA21995 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"Fu8uZ1.0.Ed4.UuXQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:10 PM 5/2/97 +0000, Michael Schaffer wrote: >F. Sparber wrote: > >>Hypothesis: If the energy from the Cesium decay forms a "Hydrino" >>and the Hydrino is absorbed by a cesium 137 atom, the compound nucleus >>should become a stable Barium 138 atom ..... > >You are making a new proton from this reaction. That requires almost 1000 >MeV. Where will that come from? The protons in the water form the "Hydrino", Michael. Think it can spare a few? :-) > Regards, Frederick >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 10:24:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA16655; Fri, 2 May 1997 10:21:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:21:22 -0700 Message-ID: <336A22B8.754F interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 13:22:00 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 2nd Tohoku A-G Experiment References: <3367AD20.4108 oultons.nb.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XHRv-3.0.544.HAYQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Larry Wharton wrote: > If the Earth's rotation slows down then the angular momentum > would decrease and that is not allowed. Hey, Larry, good point! You could subtract angular momentum from the Earth, and store it in a counter-rotating flywheel - then rocket the flywheel past escape velocity to the moon, land on the Moon - brake the flywheel to zero RPM - return it to Earth and start all over again! ------ er, maybe not! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 10:28:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA21491; Fri, 2 May 1997 10:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BC56E2.9A2C8DA0 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" , "freenrg-l eskimo.com" Subject: Simple OU Device effects Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:21:29 -0700 Encoding: 35 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"OqYHW3.0.iF5.dCYQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This started out as a preliminary stab at the effects of using Greg's magnetic ramp as an energy source. But it ends up skirting the issue, and becomes sort of a way of conventionally explaining what's going on, in real shallow terms :-). First, magnets have been doing work ever since we started using them. When you put a magnet up on the refrigerator, it does work as it pulls your hand with it toward the metal. You do an equivalent amount of work when you un-stick it later, but the magnet still did work. The magnet's work was balanced by your work. Gravity also does work, no? When you climb up a flight of stairs, you do lots of work to counter gravity. If you fall back down, gravity has done work. The system is balanced (even if you are not). In a permanent-magnet motor, the magnets are doing work. It is balanced by the work of the electromagnets, using electricity as their energy source. Permanent magnets are in wide use, and they are doing work. It's just that their work is usually balanced by energies that we provide. Greg's ramp is using one form of energy (gravitational) that we usually have to balance with our own energy, to offset another form of energy (magnetic) that we also usually have to balance with our own efforts. No big deal, right? Does anyone ever wonder whether we're depleting the Earth's gravitational energy when we fall down? In the same way, we've never stopped to wonder what the *efffects* of using magnets may be. Greg's asking a good question that maybe should be answered for our current, "conventional" widespread use of magnets. Dan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 10:46:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA18572; Fri, 2 May 1997 10:37:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:37:30 -0700 Message-ID: <336A262C.217E skylink.net> Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 10:36:44 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 2nd Tohoku A-G Experiment References: <3367AD20.4108 oultons.nb.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tCGzH1.0.6Y4.PPYQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Larry Wharton wrote: > No such invention can possibly work because of conservation of angular > momentum. If the Earth's rotation slows down then the angular momentum > would decrease and that is not allowed. Only if angular momentum is > exchanged with some third body orbiting the Earth, like the Moon, such that > the total is constant could this idea work. Through the years there have > been many schemes like this proposed and they all don't involve the Moon > and they all don't work. The moon has nothing to do with this particular invention. I will dig out some info about this device and post a description. For sure, angular momentum must be conserved in a closed system. But the earth-moon is not a closed system. In fact, given an ample amount of time, the only truly closed system is the entire universe -- maybe not even that. In this particular invention, angular momentum is transferred from the body of the earth, to an electro-magnetic field and/or mechanical device which can do useful work on or near the earth's surface, and then to waste heat at the surface and in the atmosphere, and eventually radiated into space. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 11:13:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA23943; Fri, 2 May 1997 11:10:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:10:32 -0700 Message-ID: <336A2E39.3306 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 14:11:05 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Reply-To: fstenger interlaced.net Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects References: <01BC56E2.9A2C8DA0 ristra.ucdavis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CoVBY2.0.0s5.NuYQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: > (snip) > In a permanent-magnet motor, the magnets are doing work. Dan, the magnets do no work - they do TRANSMIT the electromagnetic force. The gear teeth in a mechanical gearbox also do no work. They do transmit the mechanical force. I see what you are saying, but IMHO it's not a good way to say it. Permanent magnets store magnetostatic energy, inside and in the space around them. You can CHANGE their energy if you supply work to move them along their B-H curves - as Greg has pointed out. I guess I have yet to see a PM providing NEW energy that was not stored in it by some prime mover. I'm waiting for Greg to show us how he does it! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 11:21:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA29204; Fri, 2 May 1997 11:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:18:51 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Thermal Electron Drift - Peltier Type Effect? Resent-Message-ID: <"Z6rWX2.0.887.qxYQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A possible semiconductor to test for the TED effect is a Peltier Junction. Of interest, though, is the question of whether cooling can be achieved in an n-type lattice without providing a power supply. Consider: B ~= 0.5 T out of page ----------------------- | | | | | | | n-type | | | latice | | | | dB/dy = 0.1 T / cm | (-) (+) | | | | V | | ----------------------- Small E ------> <----- Hot electron creep direction Cool electron drift in E field ---> The leftward electron creep induced by dB/dy creates a small negative charge to the left, leaving a small positive charge to the right. This creates an electrostatic field E across the lattice, but reaches an equilibrium, with hot electrons drifting to the left, due to creep, at same rate as cool electrons drift to the right, due to E. However, this tendency for hot electrons to drift left and cool electrons to drift right should create a higher temperature to the left. Nonsense? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 11:30:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA26493; Fri, 2 May 1997 11:24:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:24:54 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <336913AB.6CAA skylink.net> <3367AD20.4108@oultons.nb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:23:58 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: 2nd Tohoku A-G Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"XIeVS.0.sT6.r5ZQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In Re to Robert Stirniman' posting: >>By the way, there is a working practical invention which uses >>gyroscopic principles to tap energy from the inertial rotation >>of the earth. In my opinion, inventions which tap significant >>amounts of energy from the earth's rotation should be strictly >>prohibited. In effect this type of invention slows down the >>earth's rotation by a small amount, and it also: might shift > >No such invention can possibly work because of conservation of angular >momentum. If the Earth's rotation slows down then the angular momentum >would decrease and that is not allowed. Only if angular momentum is >exchanged with some third body orbiting the Earth, like the Moon, such that >the total is constant could this idea work. Are you sure? Aren't heated molecules third bodies? A planet hangs in space without a nearby star or moon to bother it. It rotates, and has a surface covered with a viscous liquid. Coriolis forces stir the liquid, and it heats. Heat radiates into space. The planet eventually stops rotating when all the angular momentum has been converted to heat. Momentum and energy are conserved, as it's now out there flying through space somewhere. No? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 11:58:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA04122; Fri, 2 May 1997 11:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:42:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970502151743_76016.2701_JHC62-1 CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:41:03 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: John Hutchison Resent-Message-ID: <"tqzAS.0.401.XMZQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry - > John acknowledged this saying that it could be that > the intense fields he had worked in could have somehow > modified his brain. I hope John continues to have access to ample supplies of the finest spice to nourish and further his development in the process of becoming a Navigator. Eventually he may attain the ability not only to remove inertia from objects, but also to fold space up like a little origami crane so we can... oh... what was that you said about flamethrowers? ;) Ok seriously, that's strange. I've seen the video, and it is astounding. I love all that disrupted metal too, the aluminum bar melting on a plywood sheet next to paper and no burning, etc. All could easily have been faked with SFX, but it seemed way too low budget for certain scenes to have been set up so well if they were fake. Gee, where have we confronted these arguments before? The same thing about an experiment not working until The Man touched you was said of Moray too, wasn't it? Or was that Keely? Both? I wish somebody would touch me. 100th monkey? - Rick Monteverde, 99th monkey Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 12:05:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA01853; Fri, 2 May 1997 12:00:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:00:03 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <336913AB.6CAA skylink.net> <3367AD20.4108@oultons.nb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:59:06 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: 2nd Tohoku A-G Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"GKCHM3.0.rS.ocZQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: > A planet hangs in space without a nearby star or moon to bother it. > It rotates, and has a surface covered with a viscous liquid. Come to think of it, we'd better pass legislation banning large bodies of water. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 12:09:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA08471; Fri, 2 May 1997 12:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: 02 May 97 15:01:52 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Tapping earth's rotation Message-ID: <970502190151_72240.1256_EHB51-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"eL5EI3.0.H42.hgZQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Two methods of tapping the earth's rotation are in use: 1. In places like the Bay of Fundy, high tide bottles up large amounts of water, which comes rushing out at low tide. This can be used to generate hydroelectricity. 2. The space shuttle is launched from Florida to the east. It picks up extra speed that way, and slows the earth down. When it returns to earth still heading eastward and hit the brakes, it gives back the energy. I am not sure how it works out if a rocket goes around the moon, comes back and lands heading west. Rockets that never return permanently slow down the planet, eventually transferring the energy to whatever body they whack into. Larry Wharton writes: No such invention can possibly work because of conservation of angular momentum. If the Earth's rotation slows down then the angular momentum would decrease and that is not allowed. Only if angular momentum is exchanged with some third body orbiting the Earth, like the Moon, such that the total is constant could this idea work. The two examples I list do, obviously, make use of a third body (the moon or the rocket). The earth's rotation is gradually slowing down. I believe the principal cause is the moon's pull on the tides. Larry seems right -- that's my reading of Newton's laws too -- but there may be a puzzling exception. It seems to me that Foucault's pendulum will scavenge a tiny amount of energy from the earth's spin, slowing down the earth. From the American Heritage dictionary, this is: A simple pendulum suspended from a long wire and set into motion along a meridian. The plane of motion appears to turn clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and counterclockwise in the Southern Hemisphere, demonstrating the axial rotation of the earth. I don't know why they say it "appears to turn." It definitely does turn. Strictly speaking I guess it stands still while the earth turns. I suppose that means there must be "absolute direction" and the earth must be spinning relative to this direction, which seems to contradict what little I know of special relativity . . . but, I digress. My point is, you can see one of these pendulums at the Smithsonian museum of History and Technology. A motor built into the suspension at the top of the pendulum wire pushes the pendulum back and forth, overcoming air resistance, so that the stroke remains the same all day. The suspension -- motor and all -- is mounted on smooth bearings, allowing it to swivel in a circle, which it slowly does, knocking over small markers along the way. But of course the bearings are not perfect. A tiny amount of energy goes into swiveling the machine. This energy, it seems to me, must come from slowing down the earth. Of course, the energy required to keep the pendulum swinging back and forth is far greater than what you get from the swiveling motion, so this could never be a practical source of energy. Perhaps it would be useful on a rapidly spinning, airless planet. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 12:15:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA03523; Fri, 2 May 1997 12:10:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:10:16 -0700 Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:08:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199705021908.PAA24352 spectre.mitre.org> To: gwatson microtronics.com.au CC: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <3369D316.5665 microtronics.com.au> (message from Greg Watson on Fri, 02 May 1997 21:12:14 +0930) Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest Resent-Message-ID: <"z9GQX.0.vs.NmZQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Anyone who is saying "CLOSE THE LOOP" would consider putting your current prototype in a calorimeter and measuring "excess" heat as closing the loop. It doesn't have to be a perpetural motion machine of the second kind. But what we have seen over the 'net could be explained by a very efficient feedback system. Interesting but free energy is a whole 'nother category. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 12:25:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA08956; Fri, 2 May 1997 12:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:06:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BC56E2.9A2C8DA0 ristra.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 09:04:47 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects Resent-Message-ID: <"yf--e.0.qB2.iiZQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dan - >Does anyone ever wonder whether we're depleting the Earth's gravitational >energy when we fall down? > >In the same way, we've never stopped to wonder what the *efffects* of using >magnets may be. Greg's asking a good question that maybe should be answered >for our current, "conventional" widespread use of magnets. This reminds me of my Mom explaining economics to me when I was 4. "Say you have a dime, and you spend it. Now the person you gave it to spends it. Then the next person, and so on. Pretty soon the dime's not worth as much because so many people spent it. That's called 'inflation'." No wonder I'm still poor after that kind of up-bringing. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 12:25:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA10627; Fri, 2 May 1997 12:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BC56F2.60FB0830 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Simple OU Device effects Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:14:25 -0700 Encoding: 41 TEXT, 48 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"HYfxA1.0.wb2.TsZQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick, I'm not sure I get your point here, maybe I'm a little denser than usual today. Are you saying we shouldn't bother to ask the question before going ahead and using the energy? Thanks in advance for clarifying, Dan ---------- From: Rick Monteverde Sent: Friday, May 02, 1997 12:04 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects Dan - >Does anyone ever wonder whether we're depleting the Earth's gravitational >energy when we fall down? > >In the same way, we've never stopped to wonder what the *efffects* of using >magnets may be. Greg's asking a good question that maybe should be answered >for our current, "conventional" widespread use of magnets. This reminds me of my Mom explaining economics to me when I was 4. "Say you have a dime, and you spend it. Now the person you gave it to spends it. Then the next person, and so on. Pretty soon the dime's not worth as much because so many people spent it. That's called 'inflation'." No wonder I'm still poor after that kind of up-bringing. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(AH3`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0! `(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! M. $````"`?8/`0````0````````",#,!!( !`!T```!213H@4VEM<&QE($]5 M($1E=FEC92!E9F9E8W1S`(\)`06 `P`.````S0<%``(`# `.`!D`!0`3`0$ M ,`#@```,T'!0`"``P`"@`&``4`_ `!"8 !`"$````Y0D,U,S`!X,`0````4```!3 M3510`````!X`'PP!````%P```&1E<75I8VME`` 0`0```&4```!224-++$E-3D]44U5214E'1519 M3U524$])3E1(15)%+$U!64)%24U!3$E45$Q%1$5.4T525$A!3E5354%,5$]$ M05E!4D593U5305E)3D=715-(3U5,1$Y40D]42$525$]!4TM4``````(!"1 ! 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T8/TB!A [$.\B\A' M5$$ D&0'<1_0)U+?(O-5$"=A(, BD$Y1P"5#[U40$> E\2+R9V?R(, B,?]' M]6DS*=%IH2F 40$E4BA OG %0&I4:)1J@%<@;B*0_E 7H ) .Q!J@%KC(0$' M<7].\1WQ1_5,<$[!)0$?X'7S$; F$6-A8!)N80.!.Q#_51!4\"#Q:3(%0&R$ M3X!.\7=QX!4052$G"X :<272)_PN(AS<:=!,9AVR)<$5$?L?, 6Q80& (60% M0%G!)S#Q5S)P+6(%$!J (V%@_?8M-5](!$ADP0I "D ?T/Q(26$/1[\;;# F M?E46P0(` 3 ````#`! 0``````,`$1 `````0 `',& 6X'$L5[P!0 `(,& 6 DX'$L5[P!' `]``$````%````4D4Z( `````#``TT_3<``"JT ` end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 13:34:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA12980; Fri, 2 May 1997 13:30:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:30:38 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:35:43 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Method to extract earth energy? Resent-Message-ID: <"ezITY.0.iA3.ixaQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I you build a large multi-ton gyroscope, with the primary rotational axis gimbaled to permit rotation (tilt) of the axis itself only in a plane purpendicular to the earth's rotation, that gyroscope should resist the apparent motion induced by the earth's rotation, shouldn't it? In other words, if you locate the gyro on the equator, and set up a gimbal so the gyro can only flip in a vertical plane, then the gyro should rotate in the vertical plane once every appx. 24 hours (once every sidereal day). If you place a high gear ration transmission, and a generator, on the gimbal, it should be possible to draw energy from the earth's rotation by using the torque applied to the gyro, shouldn't it? The gyro is not free to precess, so should resist the torque applied by the earth. This force of resistance, or torque, is applied at 1 RPD, so should generate useable work. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 13:38:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA13673; Fri, 2 May 1997 13:35:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:35:24 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:37:25 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nuclear Self-Remediation Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"CziXr3.0.ZL3.B0bQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>F. Sparber wrote: >> >>>Hypothesis: If the energy from the Cesium decay forms a "Hydrino" >>>and the Hydrino is absorbed by a cesium 137 atom, the compound nucleus >>>should become a stable Barium 138 atom ..... >>> >The protons in the water form the "Hydrino", Michael. >Think it can spare a few? :-) No. Your reaction needs to make a proton: Cs 137 = 55 protons + 82 neutrons Ba 138 = 56 protons + 82 neutrons How can protons make hydrinos when your reaction needs to make a proton? Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 13:50:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA21842; Fri, 2 May 1997 13:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:41:24 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Looking for meter Resent-Message-ID: <"9QcJJ3.0.9L5.V1bQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am trying to locate a reasonably priced meter to measure very low currents (in nA) and voltages (uV). The best I've located so far is The TENMA AC Millivolt Meter ($175 from MCM Electronics, cat #72-450). It has the disadvantage of being AC voltage only and analog, but goes down to a 0-300 uV range, and has amplified output for an oscilloscope. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 13:54:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA15858; Fri, 2 May 1997 13:50:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:50:00 -0700 Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:49:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199705022049.NAA17390 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Tapping earth's rotation Resent-Message-ID: <"VjerS2.0.it3.tDbQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Larry Wharton writes: > > No such invention can possibly work because of conservation of angular > momentum. If the Earth's rotation slows down then the angular momentum > would decrease and that is not allowed. Only if angular momentum is > exchanged with some third body orbiting the Earth, like the Moon, such > that the total is constant could this idea work. > It is possible to slow down the earth's rotation using tidal effects as mentioned in the previous article. The rocket example is also a manner of doing it and Pioneer and Voyager are examples of that. The thing to remember is that the KE imparted to some device such as an electric generator in devices that use wave action ultimately results in the generation of heat when that electricity is used. And that heat is radiated away to space. So if you use the energy of tides, you will slow the earths rotation and heat the balance of the universe. energy is conserved. As for the moon earth interaction, the tidal forces lead to a bulge on the side facing the moon and the side of the earth away from the moon. But because of the rotation of the earth, the bulges are not in exact opposition. They are slightly past a line joining the bodies, ie the earth rotates from the west to the east (which is why things set in the west). So the bulge is always a bit on the eastern side of a line joining the body underconsideration. This means that the bulge on the near side of earth and the far side of the earth are on opposite sides of the line joining the earth moon centers, always to the east. And, since the bulge nearest the moon is thrust toward the moon with a greater gravitational amplitude due to the shorter radius of separation, there is a net torque induced on the earth tending to rotate the earth from east to west, in opposition to the rotation. this tends to slow the earths rotation. Simultaneously, there is a small excess thrust vector influencing the moon in the direction of the near bulge. So the moon is induced to be thrust toward the center of the earth by most of the mass, and the two bulges have an excess thrust that leads the earths motion and so the moon is induced to accelerate in its orbital circular velocity by that tiny tangential component of gravitational thrust. The acceleration in circular velocity leads to a gain in altitude, and subsequent loss in that component due to gain in PE of its orbital location. But as for the earlier comments, don't forget the link from using the energy, converting it to heat, and then radiating it away in that form which will not have a rotational influence since the radiation heads out in all directions equally and has no net rotational thrust. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 14:29:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA28751; Fri, 2 May 1997 14:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336A5ADA.2823 skylink.net> Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 14:21:30 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Method to extract earth energy? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LDEHm1.0.617.jibQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > I you build a large multi-ton gyroscope, with the primary rotational axis > gimbaled to permit rotation (tilt) of the axis itself only in a plane > purpendicular to the earth's rotation, that gyroscope should resist the > apparent motion induced by the earth's rotation, shouldn't it? In other > words, if you locate the gyro on the equator, and set up a gimbal so the > gyro can only flip in a vertical plane, then the gyro should rotate in the > vertical plane once every appx. 24 hours (once every sidereal day). > > If you place a high gear ration transmission, and a generator, on the > gimbal, it should be possible to draw energy from the earth's rotation by > using the torque applied to the gyro, shouldn't it? The gyro is not free > to precess, so should resist the torque applied by the earth. This force > of resistance, or torque, is applied at 1 RPD, so should generate useable > work. Horace. You have described in an almost exact fashion, about half of the device. Missing is -- While producing output torque, the gyro will precess in the other of the three dimensions, and will eventually reach alignment with the earth's polar axis, at which time no further useful output torque will be developed. This inventors called this "the polar alignment problem". The real genius in the invention is how to recycle (re-precess) the axis of the gyro back into the equatorial plane (actually it is best to flip it completely over 180 degrees rather than 90, all the way back into an anti-polar axis), using much less energy during the re-precession cycle,than was extracted in the precession cycle. I don't remember exactly how this is accomplished, and will have to check the patent. Can you see it? Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 14:42:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA00931; Fri, 2 May 1997 14:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: 02 May 97 17:35:09 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Tapping earth's rotation Message-ID: <970502213509_72240.1256_EHB101-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"QtKkJ.0.RE.8wbQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Ross Tessien writes: So if you use the energy of tides, you will slow the earths rotation and heat the balance of the universe. energy is conserved. I do not think you will slow down earth's rotation. That work has already been done, by the moon. If you use the energy of tides from wave action or the water pouring out of the Bay of Fundy, you will reduce the damage done to the seashore by the water. This is equivalent to saying that when you channel water away from Niagara Falls to generate electricity, and have it come out a sluice downstream instead, you reduce the damage to the rocks under the falls and downstream. You do not add or subtract anything to the solar energy that put the water in sky in the first place, starting the whole chain of events. All energy ends up as broken chemical bonds (smashed rock or what-have-you) and waste heat radiating from Earth, no matter what. The only issue is: can man intercept the energy at some point in the chain as it degrades into waste heat, and use it for his own purposes, breaking particular chemical bonds in my toaster oven or moving machines along the way. By the way, if anyone wants to tap a REALLY massive source of natural energy on the Earth, try the Gulf Stream. The body of moving water in the ocean has more energy than all of fresh water rivers and streams combined. If you could anchor ships in the Gulf Stream and have the water push turbines in the hulls, you could get more than enough energy to run our civilization. God only knows what it would do to the weather though. I don't suppose it would be any worse than gradually vaporizing mountains of coal and seas full of oil. I think it would better to find our own compact source of energy, like cold fusion, and not keep bother Mother Nature for our needs. Mama doesn't like be bothered by the kids all day. I say let her be. With cold fusion, our only worry will the waste heat. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 14:55:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA01436; Fri, 2 May 1997 14:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:41:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BC56F2.60FB0830 ristra.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:39:21 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Simple OU Device effects Resent-Message-ID: <"B2iU6.0.JM.izbQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan - > I'm not sure I get your point here, maybe > I'm a little denser than usual today. Are you > saying we shouldn't bother to ask the > question before going ahead and using the > energy? No, we should always question the effects our actions could have. It's just that in this case, the answer is in. The natural processes which have been underway for hundreds of millions of years absolutely dwarf anything we'd come up with in that area, and ours doesn't look to be the sort of addition to the processes that could trip over some sort of butterfly effect and multiply the power of its contribition. So like, we're cool with the gyro thing if we wanted to do it. Doesn't sound too practical to me anyway, but who knows. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 15:18:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA05367; Fri, 2 May 1997 15:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:14:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:12:12 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"x0t-I.0.nJ1.aScQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts - I had some questions about homopolar generators to which I was hoping someone here might have some definitive answers. I'm think this stuff's been discussed here before at some point, but I'm not sure what came of it. Is there any case where a homopolar can generate power which is consumed by a circuit rotating with the conductive disc? The answer as far as I've been able to determine seems to be "no", but something bothers me about that. Here's a planet-sized example. Assuming the north magnetic pole and the earth's rotation axis are essentially the same, you raise up a conductive wire vertically from a point near the ground (you are far from the poles, like maybe at the equator). Due to this wire's rotating with the earth at one revolution per day in a magnetic field, a displacement current occurs and charge is separated towards the ends of the wire. But you can't get the electricity to flow back down the wire from the top using a second conductor because another wire just experiences the same movement within the magnet field so the 'back EMF' balances and no current flows. My question is, can you magnetically shield the second wire so that current will flow through a load placed across the bottom of the two wires? It would seem to be possible, but has anyone tried this with homopolars? And then what would happen to the counter torque which appears when a load is connected across such a dynamo? In conventional homopolars, the load and external circuit have to sit out in a non-rotating frame with respect to the rotating disc or armature conductor, and it is between those two frames that the torque and counter-torque appear. It looks like a case of "can't shield magnetic fields" versus "free energy". If either one wins, it's weird. Does magnetism win with the Aharanov-Bohm effect? Do both lose? If so, how? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 15:38:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA31384; Fri, 2 May 1997 15:33:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:33:33 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:38:29 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Method to extract earth energy? Resent-Message-ID: <"il-051.0.Dg7.ykcQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:21 PM 5/2/97, Robert Stirniman wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> I you build a large multi-ton gyroscope, with the primary rotational axis >> gimbaled to permit rotation (tilt) of the axis itself only in a plane >> purpendicular to the earth's rotation, that gyroscope should resist the >> apparent motion induced by the earth's rotation, shouldn't it? In other >> words, if you locate the gyro on the equator, and set up a gimbal so the >> gyro can only flip in a vertical plane, then the gyro should rotate in the >> vertical plane once every appx. 24 hours (once every sidereal day). >> >> If you place a high gear ration transmission, and a generator, on the >> gimbal, it should be possible to draw energy from the earth's rotation by >> using the torque applied to the gyro, shouldn't it? The gyro is not free >> to precess, so should resist the torque applied by the earth. This force >> of resistance, or torque, is applied at 1 RPD, so should generate useable >> work. > >Horace. You have described in an almost exact fashion, >about half of the device. > >Missing is -- >While producing output torque, the gyro will precess in the >other of the three dimensions, and will eventually reach alignment >with the earth's polar axis, at which time no further useful output >torque will be developed. This inventors called this "the >polar alignment problem". > >The real genius in the invention is how to recycle >(re-precess) the axis of the gyro back into the >equatorial plane (actually it is best to flip it >completely over 180 degrees rather than 90, all the >way back into an anti-polar axis), using much less >energy during the re-precession cycle,than was >extracted in the precession cycle. > >I don't remember exactly how this is accomplished, >and will have to check the patent. Can you see it? > >Regards, >Robert Stirniman Robert, You missed the keyword "only" in the phrase above:"gimbaled to permit rotation (tilt) of the axis itself only in a plane purpendicular to the earth's rotation". Therefore the alignment of the gyro to the earth's pole can not take place. It leaves the questions then of (1) if no precession can take place, is there really a drag and (2) if there is drag, does it slow the gyro, even if you have frictionless bearings? The discussion you are opening leads to one of the first issues I ever asked about on vortex - namely: when torqueing a gyro axis free to move in a direction purpendicular to the torque, why does it sometimes, depending on how you push on the axis, seem to "freewheel flip", i.e. precess all the way to an upside down position with almost no effort, thus denying conservation of momentum. The answer was - it only seems to do that effortlessly, if you take measurements you see momentum is preserved. Maybe the inventor fell pray to the same intuitive error that I did and tried to apply something like the freewheel flip I thought I observed about 35 years ago using a surplus WW2 gyro. Then again, I've never taken careful measurments of the phenomenon. Has anyone else? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 16:08:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA03352; Fri, 2 May 1997 16:06:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:06:41 -0700 Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:06:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705022306.SAA18428 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"qF58-3.0.Iq.0EdQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:12 5/2/97 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >My question is, can you magnetically shield the second wire so that current >will flow through a load placed across the bottom of the two wires? Ah, Rick, you are dangerously close to the rocks in the Straits of Induction! (I've wrecked on them many times myself). The apparent paradox here is due to improper usage of the "flux cutting a wire" model for inducing an emf in a conductor. It works fine for wires flying thru a uniform magnetic field but falls down when you start trying to understand how a transformer works, for example. In a xfmr, the flux never touches the wire..it all stays in the core (OK nitpickers, it's not ALL in the core but the xfmr would work just fine...even better...if it was). The correct way to decide whether or not a current will flow in a circuit due to the influence of some external magnetic field is to look at the rate of change of magnetic flux, PHI, through the loop formed by the circuit. In fact, the voltage available to push current around the loop is equal to dPHI/dt thru the loop. Since your proposed loop of wire sees a static magnetic field going thru it (regardless of whether or not you shield one of the wires) no emf will be generated and no current will flow. please keep thinking... Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 16:10:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA03091; Fri, 2 May 1997 16:05:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:05:09 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <336A7314.76AB math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 16:04:52 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: TV program in France References: <199705021101.NAA07549 imaginet.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ytIXi2.0.Dm.aCdQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jean-Pierre Lentin wrote: > > The film is called « Ils vont sauver la planete ! » > (They’re going to save the planet ! ). It featurees > ... Jacques Benveniste Is Benveniste still trying to prove water has a homeopathic memory? He hasn't been in the news much since his brief moment a decade ago. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 17:03:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA18018; Fri, 2 May 1997 16:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:54:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Nuclear Self-Remediation Experiment Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:53:08 +0000 Message-ID: <19970502235306.AAA7028 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"Wj0qC1.0.SP4.fwdQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:37 PM 5/2/97 +0000, Michael J Shaffer wrote: >>>F. Sparber wrote: >>> >>>>Hypothesis: If the energy from the Cesium decay forms a "Hydrino" >>>>and the Hydrino is absorbed by a cesium 137 atom, the compound nucleus >>>>should become a stable Barium 138 atom ..... >>>> >>The protons in the water form the "Hydrino", Michael. >>Think it can spare a few? :-) > >No. Your reaction needs to make a proton: > > Cs 137 = 55 protons + 82 neutrons > Ba 138 = 56 protons + 82 neutrons > >How can protons make hydrinos when your reaction needs to make a proton? Very simple: 1H-1 + 55Cs-137 = 56Ba-138 + energy Now, in theory the Hydrino is a PROTON with according to Mills; "a fractional orbital state" ie., the electron supposedly can be "catalytically made to orbit the proton at these "fractional orbits". Realistically, you are not in a zillion years going to bring two protons or two deuterons or whatever, in and over the coulomb repulsion barrier, Force = k*Z1*Z2 q^2/R^2 (newtons). I think after 50 years of Farting Around trying to do that,that you would figure out that there is some other mechanism going on. :-) Obviously at energies high enough (1.02 MeV)to create the classical electron-positron pair you will get pair production and maybe get a three body or "hydrino" type collision and you can put a proton or deuteron or a doubly charged helium projectile into any target nucleus. >From the known low energy nuclear reaction cross-sections, it isn't far from sane to look for a mechanism that is doing this instead of building small tokamaks then hotter tokamaks then bigger tokamaks, then smaller hotter tokamaks and so on. :-) The intent of this experiment is to see if there might be "hydrino" enhanced reaction going on. Or, possibly there is a low energy pair production "window" that can be exploited using the decay energy of the radioisotopes as stated. If that is not clear to you. I would suggest that you go on with using a bigger hammer to crack an M&M. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 17:20:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA21844; Fri, 2 May 1997 17:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:25:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Jason Aldo To: Tom Miller Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minto Wheel In-Reply-To: <3367EE18.108C gorge.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Z92L6.0.AL5.5HeQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think I figured out the efficiency of the Minto wheel. I located a book on the wheel which says that one tank of the wheel has 39.3 lbs of r11 refrigerent in it which takes 18.58 BTU to vaporize. When falling due to gravity, the tank puts out 781 ft lbs of work according to the booklet. Unless my math is completely screwed up like it usually is, 781 ft/lbs=1 BTU. From that, this would mean (I think) that the Minto Wheel in question is only 5.3% efficient. I compared this to Carnot's ideal efficiency based on the working temperature difference. According to the booklet, the wheel was working at 100 degrees F. on the hot side and 60 degrees on the cold side. Carnot's formula: temp in-temp out ----------------=efficiency temp in+460 40 --- = .07= 7% efficiency 560 7% is kind of close to 5.3% There will also be more power losses due to the transmission. At first I thought that it would be impossible to make an overunity device with this by hooking it up to a heat pump since the efficiency is so low, however, if it was a closed system using a heat pump, no heat would ever be dumped out, only recyled in a closed loop. According to conventional thermodynamics, all heat engines MUST dump heat out somewhere. Does this mean that if the Minto wheel is operated as a closed system with a heat pump, that it is not a heat engine but a gravity engine using temperture phase changes to cause the wheel to always be heavier on top????? I'm not good with thermodynamics so this might be all wrong...... OnWed, 30 Apr 1997, Tom Miller wrote: > Peter Aldo wrote about the claimed 85% sfficiency of the Minto > Wheel, and how a heat pump attached might work. > > > Peter: > I don't know any more about the efficiency of the Minto Wheel > than anyone else. However, it seems to me that a significant > portion of the equation is the evaporation of water remaining > on the wheel, after it leaves the heated water. > > I think an efficient heat pump could help, and would make > an O/U device, if the heat pump actually performed at a > COP of 5, and the minto wheel was at even 30% efficiency. > > One possibility would be to enclose the wheel in an insulated > building. The heat pump would heat the water, and cool the air > or other gas above, in a closed loop The problem with this is > that the evaporater coils would ice up, before a really efficient > temp was reached (from the vapor off the wheel). > > I think a better way would be to insulate the water tank, but > force ambient air over first, the evaporater coils, then the wheel. > This would tend to dehydrate the air, as well as chill it. Both > would help chill the wheel. > > Most likely, though, the wheel is best left in its simplest > state, or maybe try to enhance efficiency by careful decisions > about working fluid, and tank configuration. For instance, > increasing the tank surface area (fins?) should aid heat > excahnge, hence efficiency. Maybe some kind of cloth blanket, > to hold more water to evaporate? > > Tom Miller > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 17:37:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA14324; Fri, 2 May 1997 17:35:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:35:43 -0700 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nuclear Self-Remediation Experiment Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 00:34:48 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <336b7c5d.5527000 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IkWy52.0.kV3.UXeQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 2 May 1997 08:10:06 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >F. Sparber wrote: > >>Hypothesis: If the energy from the Cesium decay forms a "Hydrino" >>and the Hydrino is absorbed by a cesium 137 atom, the compound nucleus >>should become a stable Barium 138 atom ..... > >You are making a new proton from this reaction. That requires almost 1000 >MeV. Where will that come from? The Hydrino is a proton with a shrunken orbital. The assumption is that the proton gets absorbed, while the negative particle is ejected. Mills thinks the negative particle is an electron, Frederick thinks it's one of his "light" electrons. > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > > Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 17:37:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA14249; Fri, 2 May 1997 17:35:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:35:29 -0700 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 2nd Tohoku A-G Experiment Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 00:34:50 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <336e7f74.6318263 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <19970502052529.AAA13909 LOCALNAME> <336ad4f1.48111471@mail.eisa.net.au> <3369F174.63DA@interlaced.net> In-Reply-To: <3369F174.63DA interlaced.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XXR6i3.0.ZU3.GXeQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 02 May 1997 09:51:48 -0400, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> >(snip) > >> This may be because Frank has his "reply to" field filled in with his >> own email address. I *think* that when posting to a list server it >> works better if you leave this field blank. >> >No, Robin - but in Netscape Mail, I do have vortex-l's address in the >"Mail To:" field. I have the Cc: field blank. Is this right? > >Frank Stenger > Frank, >From where I'm sitting, the basic difference between messages from you and those from Frederick are that in yours the "reply-to" field contains "fstenger interlaced.net", while in Frederick's it contains "vortex-l eskimo.com". In Netscape Communicator, in the "Edit | Preferences | Mail & Groups | Identity | Reply-to address" field, there would appear to be something filled in. I note that in Netscape Gold 3.0 there is also an Identity | Reply to field. If this isn't filled in in your case, then I am at a loss as to how that could be happening. I think that the vortex list server itself places its own address in the reply-to field, if this is blank in the messages that it receives. Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 17:38:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA24495; Fri, 2 May 1997 17:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:36:15 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 2nd Tohoku A-G Experiment Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 00:34:52 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <336f82ac.7142744 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3367AD20.4108 oultons.nb.ca> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HqiGY3.0.f-5.xXeQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 2 May 1997 10:29:06 -0400, Larry Wharton wrote: [snip] >No such invention can possibly work because of conservation of angular >momentum. If the Earth's rotation slows down then the angular momentum >would decrease and that is not allowed. Only if angular momentum is >exchanged with some third body orbiting the Earth, like the Moon, such that >the total is constant could this idea work. Through the years there have >been many schemes like this proposed and they all don't involve the Moon >and they all don't work. > >Lawrence E. Wharton >NASA/GSFC code 913 >Greenbelt MD 20771 >(301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov Why can't angular momentum be conserved in a two body system, where equal and opposite amounts are added/subracted to/from both bodies? (This is simply and an application of Newton's third law at the interface between the two bodies). E.g. When a car drives along the road, it is in fact following a curved path around the surface of the earth, hence acquires angular momentum. The only place this can come from is from the earth itself that must lose/gain an equivalent amount. (The sign is matter of interpretation and choice of reference frame). Or are you trying to say that such an exchange can't happen when there is also an transfer of energy from one to the other? So why is it advantageous to launch satellites from equatorial launch sites? Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 17:44:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA24461; Fri, 2 May 1997 17:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:36:07 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nuclear Self-Remediation Experiment Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 00:34:54 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <33708772.8364952 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <19970502122532.AAA26944 LOCALNAME> In-Reply-To: <19970502122532.AAA26944 LOCALNAME> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CjA7O1.0.2-5.pXeQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 2 May 1997 12:25:35 +0000, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >The Cesium 137 with a half-life of 30.3 years has a decay energy >of 1.174 MeV (a 0.514 MeV beta-minus and a 0.616 MeV Barium K X-Ray). .616 MeV sounds more like a gamma-ray to me than a Barium K x-ray. (I think the latter are limited to about 30keV.) [snip] Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 17:59:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA16193; Fri, 2 May 1997 17:55:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:55:49 -0700 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: John Hutchison Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 00:54:45 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <336a8cce.9736661 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jO1QP3.0.ty3.LqeQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 2 May 1997 08:41:03 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] >Ok seriously, that's strange. I've seen the video, and it is astounding. I >love all that disrupted metal too, the aluminum bar melting on a plywood >sheet next to paper and no burning, etc. All could easily have been faked Isn't this exactly what one would expect from eddy current heating? (No heat developed in the insulators, but plenty in the metal). [snip] Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 18:06:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA27709; Fri, 2 May 1997 17:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336A8CAD.2EC microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 10:24:05 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Simple OU Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"O2A6w1.0.rm6.MqeQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HI All, Thanks for all the feedback. I vaule it all. Here is my test setup and the results I get with my linear unit. Test Setup: =========== The test setup is composed of 4 sections, all joined end to end and made as level as possible. The release is on the right side and the exit is on the left. The sections are composed of 12mm alum "U" channel upon which a 12mm steel boll rolls from right to left. ......Exit......Black Box.......Entry.......Release 1) Release section: This is a 100mm section of alum 12mm alum "U" channel attached to the entry track. The release section is bent up at approx 5 deg. A small notch has been filed up the ramp as a index to assist the ball being released every time at the same position. The notch position was determined with the "Black Box" section removed and varying the release point to get the ball to just roll to the end of the 1mtr entry track without dropping over the end. This I assumed gave me as close as zero ball energy at the entry point of the "Black Box" as possible. 2) Entry section: This is a 1mtr long section of 12mm alum "U" channel as level as I can make it. 3) Black Box Section: This unit contains magnets and more of the 12mm alum "U" channel. The entry and exit track are at the same level. The ball is pulled up the ramp by a graduated B field. 4) Exit section: This is a 1mtr long sectin of 12mm alum "U" channel as level as I can make it. All sections are level and at the same height. Test Results: ============= The steel ball is placed on the "calibrated" release notch and released. It roll down the release ramp and onto the entry track. As it rolls along the entry track, the ball starts to slow. Then it gets to with-in 75-100mm from the end of the entry track or from the start of the "Black Box" section. the ball starts rolling at a constant speed and slightly accelerates as it crosses over into the "Black Box" section. It leaves the "Black Box" section showing some slight drag back with-in the first 25-50mm and then happily rolls off the end of the 1 mtr exit track. Further Testing: ================ I have constructed a working three ramp unit to investigate the change in "Black Box" input alterations due to the influence of the exit field. The testing here was to investigate the problems in attempting to close the loop. I could not get two units oriented at right angles to work due to the complexs interactions of the exit and entry fields. My idea here was to use 4 units set a right angles to each other to form a square and thus close the loop. The three unit linear model does work. Conclusions on the Linear Unit: =============================== A real energy gain is shown as well as the ability to move a mass. The energy gain seems to be around 20-30%. Closing the loop with such a model seems difficult as the frictional losses in returning the ball to the enrty point would be large. Rotary Unit: ============ My current work is centered on a rotary unit, quite different to the above. Long Term Intentions: ===================== I do not intend to manuf a thing. A license to use the technology will be available to any one who wishes to use it at a VERY LOW COST. My current thinking is around $100 upfront and $1 / 1kw generation capacity per unit on a decreasing sliding scale. I believe if the technology is available cheaply enough, its simpler and less costly in the long run to license it than steal it. As to getting rich, if my shareholders do, so will I. References: =========== US Patent 4,215,330 issued 29 July, 1980. Check it out. Test Group: =========== This patent was posted to the 9 members of my test group. While is is not my device, is is close and an understanding of the patent would be of benefit. To my knowledge, 4 members have constructed actual units. I included in the group several critics to help keep us all honest. , , , *Constructed* , *Constructed* , *Constructed* , *Constructed* , *Working on a unit* , , , *Constructed* The group was formed to reduce list traffic and help to keep discussions in control. If you wish to jon the group and be involved in actual construction and discussions please let me know. I should point out that the guys at Earth Tech are willing to test a "closed loop unit" unit at no charge. I have accepted. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 18:17:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA17793; Fri, 2 May 1997 18:10:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:10:48 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:15:44 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"PCTcg3.0.xL4.N2fQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:12 PM 5/2/97, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Gnorts Vorts - > >I had some questions about homopolar generators to which I was hoping >someone here might have some definitive answers. I'm think this stuff's >been discussed here before at some point, but I'm not sure what came of it. > Homopolar generators are IMHO easiest to understand if you look at them from the perspective of magnetic lines of flux. Each magnetic line of flux is a continuous loop. If there is relative motion between a line of flux and conductor, such that the conductor is cut by the flux line, or vice versa, a potential is generated. The potential generated in a conductor is proportional to the number of lines of flux cutting the conductor per unit of time. To get a current flowing the conductor must form at least one closed circuit. This, then means any generator involves at some time a minimum of two closed interlocking loops, one being a flux line, the other the conductive circuit. Topology demands that for a flux loop to cut a conductive loop it is required that the intial condition either be that the loops are interlocked or not, and after the cut, the final condition is the opposite. When a line of flux interlocks with the circuit by cutting it the voltage is generated in one direction, but to become no longer interlocked a voltage must be generated in the opposite direction. If flux multiple flux lines cut the circuit, the average potential is determined by the balance of flux lines cutting per second. It is easiest consider a homopolar with uniform motion. There only three reference frames, so there are only three relative angular motions. Therefore, everything that happens must repeat in one of three cycles, or sysnthesizing, we can come up with an overall master cycle for the device, which repeats. Given that every state is repeated at least once per master cycle, every ring interlock condition is repeated. For this reason it is not possible to make a DC generator without brushes. The ring interlocks must exactly equal the ring disengagements in each master cycle if no brushes are involved. The balance is zero, so you have AC or no current at all without brushes. The homopolar generator in its standard or classical form has only one conductive loop. The magnetic field has many flux loops, which rotate relative to the circuit. I think it is useful to understanding, especially if the magnetic field is symmetric, to consider and understand a cycle for a single line of flux. All angular motion involved with the homopolar generator is relative, and there are only three reference frames for the relative motion: the magnetic field, the armature (rotating wheel or cylinder) and the stator (the rest of the circuit). Any of these may rotate at any speed. However, if the stator rotates at the same speed as the armature, no current will flow becaues the number of interlocks must then exactly equal the disengagements for each rotation. No brushes are involved. The best you can make is an AC generator or synchronous motor in such a circumstance. It does not matter how the magnetic field rotates, as long as there is relative motion between the stator and armature. There really is not even a necessary difference between them! The armature and field cutting it only need be symmetric to generate true DC and to prevent eddy currents. The armature could simply be a rotating set of spokes or even a single wire if pulsed DC is OK. The difference in relative motion between the armature and stator in the homopolar generator is used to achieve a non-zero balance of interlocks, and thus achieve DC. The key to understanding the homopolar, IMHO, is this: the lines of flux which cut only the stator (or only the armature) do so 2n times each cycle, n interlocks, and n disengagements (some of which may happen simultaneously), thus have *no net DC effect* and do not even need be considered except for AC effects. It is only the lines of flux which cut the stator on interlock with the circuit, and cut the armature upon disengagement (or vice versa) that create a net DC current due to the relative motion of stator and armature. The relative motion creates a net blanace of cuts in one direction. Note also that if the field rotates with the aramture (or stator) then every rotation of a line of flux in the armature (stator) creates an unbalanced cut in the stator (armature) once per cycle. >Is there any case where a homopolar can generate power which is consumed by >a circuit rotating with the conductive disc? The answer as far as I've been >able to determine seems to be "no", but something bothers me about that. >Here's a planet-sized example. Sure. There is no difference between the stator and armature - unless you want pure DC. Even then, the armature could consist of rings with circuit elements in between the rings and driven by the potential difference between the rings, i.e. by the current flowing through the armature. > >Assuming the north magnetic pole and the earth's rotation axis are >essentially the same, you raise up a conductive wire vertically from a >point near the ground (you are far from the poles, like maybe at the >equator). Due to this wire's rotating with the earth at one revolution per >day in a magnetic field, a displacement current occurs and charge is >separated towards the ends of the wire. But you can't get the electricity >to flow back down the wire from the top using a second conductor because >another wire just experiences the same movement within the magnet field so >the 'back EMF' balances and no current flows. Here the stator (the wire) and the armature (the earth if used for the return path, or some other wire) move in the same reference frame - thus no DC. You could wiggle the wire back and forth to get AC. > >My question is, can you magnetically shield the second wire so that current >will flow through a load placed across the bottom of the two wires? It >would seem to be possible, but has anyone tried this with homopolars? And >then what would happen to the counter torque which appears when a load is >connected across such a dynamo? In conventional homopolars, the load and >external circuit have to sit out in a non-rotating frame with respect to >the rotating disc or armature conductor, and it is between those two frames >that the torque and counter-torque appear. No - the shielding will either (1) ultimately be cut by the rotating flux line or (2) the shielding strength is sufficient to stop the mutual rotations or damage the device and break the circuit. > >It looks like a case of "can't shield magnetic fields" versus "free >energy". Some superconductors do a great job of sheilding (actially reflecting or mirroring) and can actually trap a magnetic field within a ring (the flux loops trapped interlocked with the SC ring.) However, shielding "does not compute" when it comes to rotating interlocked lines of flux. Either the flux builds up to the point where the flux destroys the sheild and the flux rotates through the circuit or the flux pressure destroys something or stops the motion. >If either one wins, it's weird. So far EM ou seems to be coming in second with zero points scored. >Does magnetism win with the >Aharanov-Bohm effect? Do both lose? If so, how? > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Don't know what the above question means. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 18:48:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA05285; Fri, 2 May 1997 18:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336A97BD.11AE microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 11:11:17 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Simple Ou Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FGSgl2.0.QI1.3WfQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Here is the link to the Patent 4,215,330 : Right click on each image/page to save it to disk and then use any gif viewer to view or print it. This is not my device, but is close enough for you to build if you want to have a go and experiment. It does work. http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4215330 -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 18:48:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA05083; Fri, 2 May 1997 18:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:41:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199705022306.SAA18428 natasha.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:39:53 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"UdiRT2.0.KF1.-UfQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott - > Ah, Rick, you are dangerously close to the > rocks in the Straits of Induction! Good thing I've got my Boogie Board(TM). > Since your proposed loop of wire sees a > static magnetic field going thru it > (regardless of whether or not you shield > one of the wires) no emf will be generated > and no current will flow. I'm seriously not getting this. Sounds like you're saying you can't really shield magnetism in this case. Say I replace the conductive disc on a homopolar with an insulating platform, and lay a thin closed loop of wire stretched radially on it, going from hub to rim. One half the wire loop run from hub to rim is shielded magnetically. Now with the disc and attached wire loop spinning in the magnetic field, no current will flow because...the shield doesn't really shield that half since the flux is rolling through the shield wrapping the wire, and that induces the back-emf we were trying to avoid by shielding it in the first place? And what's "static" about the magnetic field if the gizmo is rotating? I know the polarity doesn't change, because it's in a homopolar configuration. But it is rotating relative to the wire, IOW moving/changing. I know the field itself does no rotation on its own axis. But relative... You mean I can hang a little piece of iron on a thread inside the shield and see no magnetism in there, but spin the thing and induction works anyway? So can I hide the whole conductive disc from the magnet of a normal homopolar by mounting an iron box around it and it will still generate current as if the box weren't there trying to shield it? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 18:56:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA06671; Fri, 2 May 1997 18:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:55:59 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"jPpDw1.0.8e1.RefQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:06 PM 5/2/97, Scott Little wrote: >At 12:12 5/2/97 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: > >>My question is, can you magnetically shield the second wire so that current >>will flow through a load placed across the bottom of the two wires? > >Ah, Rick, you are dangerously close to the rocks in the Straits of >Induction! (I've wrecked on them many times myself). > >The apparent paradox here is due to improper usage of the "flux cutting a >wire" model for inducing an emf in a conductor. Gee, no accounting for taste is there! > It works fine for wires >flying thru a uniform magnetic field but falls down when you start trying to >understand how a transformer works, for example. In a xfmr, the flux never >touches the wire..it all stays in the core (OK nitpickers, it's not ALL in >the core but the xfmr would work just fine...even better...if it was). Ohhhh! Nits! Yummy! I can't let this go by without saying there are various non-conventional thinkers like me who don't believe the above. I think flux, unless in the free form of a photon/wave packet, might actually exist and is an extension of the quantum waveform of a particle with charge. The lines of flux induced in the primary, therefore, must rotate about the core of the transformer at the electron drift speed for example. The lines of flux induced in the core must originate in atoms in the core and return to them. Induced flux lines, which are closed rings which originate in and circle around inside a circular core, must have gotten in that configuration by expanding across the center of the ring, and therefore must have cut the conductors not only of the secodnary coil but the primnary as well. Some induced flux lines don't make it all the way around the ring and thus exit the core into air space in the middle of the core and make a kind of flux short circuit - thus there is not a compete coupling of primary and secondary. I'm no expert, and very limited in experience, but so far I havn't seen a single case where the magnetic flux model, at least as I understand it, disagrees in results with interpretations where flux does not actually exist. I'll readily conceed that maybe the different viewpoints are isomorphic. One way to disprove what I am saying might be in the size of flux quantum. However, that seems to match particles one for one. The fact that the flux quantum in superconductors is (h/2e) = 8x10^-15 Wb instead of (h/e) is evidence that electron pairs are the charge carriers in superconductors. Just food for thought from your friendly local nit pickin' amateur. 8^) > >please keep thinking... > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Ditto. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 19:02:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA06986; Fri, 2 May 1997 18:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502185312.00683d6c mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 18:53:13 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"j01SX3.0.4j1.egfQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, I agree magnets do work (just like springs)... I don't think anybody with a little logic could disagree with this. The work done by the magnet is simply the amount of force exercised by the magnet over the distance which this force acts on something. If [W] denotes work, [F] force, [m] mass, [a] acceleration, [v] velocity, [d] distance traveled ...according to the basic formula [W=fd] meaning that if a magnets attract ANY mass with a force of 1 Newton over the distance of 1 meter than the work done by/against the magnet will equal to 1 Joule. NOTE: that it doesn't matter if the attracted mass is 1 gram or 1 ton, the amount of work the magnet does to attract it for over 1 meter is 1 Joule, IN BOTH CASES ! You can express the work [W] done by the magnet in variety of other ways, for example [W=mad] meaning a certain mass [m] accelerating at a certain rate [a] for a certain distance [d] denotes certain work done by the magnet ... or [W=0.5mv^2] meaning that a magnet attracting certain mass [m] will accelerate it to a certain velocity [v] and the expression [0.5mv^2] will represent the amount of work [W] the magnet has done. The issue whether any work has to be done AGAINST the magnet before any work is done BY the magnet, is a completely different issue and very dependent on how large the "box" is. At 10:21 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote: >This started out as a preliminary stab at the effects of using Greg's >magnetic ramp as an energy source. But it ends up skirting the issue, and >becomes sort of a way of conventionally explaining what's going on, in real >shallow terms :-). > >First, magnets have been doing work ever since we started using them. When >you put a magnet up on the refrigerator, it does work as it pulls your hand >with it toward the metal. You do an equivalent amount of work when you >un-stick it later, but the magnet still did work. The magnet's work was >balanced by your work. > >Gravity also does work, no? When you climb up a flight of stairs, you do >lots of work to counter gravity. If you fall back down, gravity has done >work. The system is balanced (even if you are not). > >In a permanent-magnet motor, the magnets are doing work. It is balanced by >the work of the electromagnets, using electricity as their energy source. > >Permanent magnets are in wide use, and they are doing work. It's just that >their work is usually balanced by energies that we provide. > >Greg's ramp is using one form of energy (gravitational) that we usually >have to balance with our own energy, to offset another form of energy >(magnetic) that we also usually have to balance with our own efforts. No >big deal, right? > >Does anyone ever wonder whether we're depleting the Earth's gravitational >energy when we fall down? > >In the same way, we've never stopped to wonder what the *efffects* of using >magnets may be. Greg's asking a good question that maybe should be answered >for our current, "conventional" widespread use of magnets. > > >Dan > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 19:10:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA23892; Fri, 2 May 1997 19:05:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:05:20 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502190515.00a5e1b4 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:05:16 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth ! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"sFAxT2.0.Er5.VrfQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ...and the sum of earth's angular momentum + the heat radiated into space after we slowed down the earth a little with our infernal device, should be equal to the earth's angular momentum before we starting to perform our evil deed. ...I don't understand why any one of you would like to limit the conservation of energy "generalization" ONLY to the mechanical angular momentum. Electrical energy or EM radiation like heat are as "good" forms of energy as mechanical momentum. If these energies could, they would sue you for unfair discrimination (anthropomorphically speaking...) P.S. I remember reading somewhere that the earth's rotation rate is altered by man-made water reservoirs. (ballerina effect) At 10:36 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote: >Larry Wharton wrote: >> No such invention can possibly work because of conservation of angular >> momentum. If the Earth's rotation slows down then the angular momentum >> would decrease and that is not allowed. Only if angular momentum is >> exchanged with some third body orbiting the Earth, like the Moon, such that >> the total is constant could this idea work. Through the years there have >> been many schemes like this proposed and they all don't involve the Moon >> and they all don't work. > >The moon has nothing to do with this particular invention. >I will dig out some info about this device and post a >description. > >For sure, angular momentum must be conserved in a closed system. >But the earth-moon is not a closed system. In fact, given >an ample amount of time, the only truly closed system is >the entire universe -- maybe not even that. > >In this particular invention, angular momentum is transferred >from the body of the earth, to an electro-magnetic field and/or >mechanical device which can do useful work on or near the earth's >surface, and then to waste heat at the surface and in the >atmosphere, and eventually radiated into space. > >Regards, >Robert Stirniman > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 19:11:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA08989; Fri, 2 May 1997 19:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:05:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Nuclear Self-Remediation Experiment Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 02:04:19 +0000 Message-ID: <19970503020417.AAA12097 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"6FttQ3.0.KC2.drfQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:34 AM 5/3/97 +0000, you wrote: >On Fri, 2 May 1997 12:25:35 +0000, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >[snip] >>The Cesium 137 with a half-life of 30.3 years has a decay energy >>of 1.174 MeV (a 0.514 MeV beta-minus and a 0.616 MeV Barium K X-Ray). > >.616 MeV sounds more like a gamma-ray to me than a Barium K x-ray. >(I think the latter are limited to about 30keV.) I think so too, Robin. But that's what the "Rubber Bible" said in the gamma energy column. :-) Regards, Frederick >[snip] > > > >Robin van Spaandonk >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on >temperature. >"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." >PS - no SPAM thanks! >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 19:35:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA27910; Fri, 2 May 1997 19:32:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:32:22 -0700 Message-ID: <336AA382.493B microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 12:01:30 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Homopolar question References: <199705022306.SAA18428 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OlYUs2.0.0q6.rEgQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > The apparent paradox here is due to improper usage of the "flux cutting a > wire" model for inducing an emf in a conductor. It works fine for wires > flying thru a uniform magnetic field but falls down when you start trying to > understand how a transformer works, for example. In a xfmr, the flux never > touches the wire..it all stays in the core (OK nitpickers, it's not ALL in > the core but the xfmr would work just fine...even better...if it was). I agree its not flux lines (they don't actually exist) cutting a wire. Its a change in the magnetic potentional "A" which generates the emf. Flux lines are actually lines of equal magnetic potential "A". I now refer to magnetic contours rather than magnetic lines. I think the term magnetic contours is more descriptive. However the flux contour around a wire next to a ferromagnetic core still revolves around the wire. Some of it flows in space and some in the core. There is NO WAY all of the wires flux flows in the core. The flux flows from and must return to its source, the moving electrons in the wire. While the normal circular flux contours we see around a wire are distorted by the core, they will never be so distorted as to not flow in space. It is the flux flowing in space than generates the coupling in a tfx. It is the core that tightly binds the windings together so as to assist in good energy transfer. I also know we don't agree on this, just like Bob and I don't agree on flux existing in a bifilar coil, but that's life. As a second point, Jean-Louis's simple homopolar generator seems to be a good proof that the magnetic field surrounding a magnet doesn't revolve with the magnet. His rotation magnet is a good proof of a stationary field and a rotation metal disk. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 19:36:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA27981; Fri, 2 May 1997 19:32:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:32:57 -0700 Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:32:50 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: rubberband engine materials Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"uESXW1.0.7r6.OFgQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have some urethane film here that's part of the mailing package of a Picstart Plus chip programmer. It's transparent, very "rubbery", .003" thickness. By hand I can feel that it's spring constant has a big knee at about 250% extension, and it tears at a little beyond this. It does display the Rubber Thermal Effect. Exhaustive testing with a biological thermal probe ;) shows that the temperature does increase with extension, but most of the rise is right at the "knee". Not good, since the largest d(temp)/d(length) is near the breaking point. Also, the knee moves around (I accidentally "annealed" the stuff with 80C coffee water.) Rubber would be preferable if it has a less-sharp knee, and if it has less hysterisis at high temperature. When stretched to 200%, hot and cold tapwater only deflects it by about 1mm, and it does not fully return to zero. Another idea: hanks of small gauge surgical tubing all in parallel, with fluid pumped through. If the extend/retract motion of this "muscle" assembly could run a water pump and a switching valve, it could switch hot and cold fluid through itself. With a very large number of very fine tubes, the total surface area would be large, the response time small, and the throughput power large. One method of converting small high-force linear motions into large low-force rotary is the overunity motor scooter's device. A small motion of a strong magnet pushes a magnet rotor over the "hump", and a spiral of strong stator magnets then spreads the force out across the entire rotation of the rotor. This would have just one bearing, as opposed to a multiple gear train which would have efficiency loss from all the bearings and tooth friction. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty DESIGN ENGINEER beatywj ch.etn.com INDUSTRIAL PHOTOCONTROLS EATON/CUTLER-HAMMER Everett, WA 206-353-0900 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 19:41:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA28472; Fri, 2 May 1997 19:37:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:37:06 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <336a8cce.9736661 mail.eisa.net.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:36:08 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: John Hutchison Resent-Message-ID: <"ygMPZ3.0.ly6.GJgQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin - > Isn't this exactly what one would expect > from eddy current heating? (No heat > developed in the insulators, but plenty in > the metal). Well maybe, but there was allegedly *no* heat. He's supposed to have a piece of partially "melted" aluminum bar with a piece of paper stuck in it. On the video you can see the aluminum melting and pooling on the plywood and there's no somke or sign of burning. In another scene, a moly-steel bar - I think it was a piece of an old injection molding screw, suddenly gets 'sorted' out by elements - carbon and other stuff sifting to one end, iron and everything else all in bands along its length. There was a scene of a file glowing orange that looked to be RF heating. I take all I saw in the video as very possibly being faked, but I just don't know for sure. Makes me wonder though if you had enough charge accumulated in one place, if you couldn't sort of dissolve things in electrons. Basically what happens with soluable materials in solvent anyway, right? Closeups of the metal looked like it got disrupted along lots of crystal planes, like if you flexed and broke some brittle large crystal metal like bismuth, and you had lots of little fissures and some big ones. It looked sort of expanded or blown out, as if exploded from within. Perhaps a little like the exploding wires thing, but in all three dimensions at once and much slower; it's not sudden. That aluminum sample slowly shows these features as it goes in the video. It breaks up in sort of rectangular chunks and splinters, and little bits of it melts away. I've melted aluminum many times in a gas flame before, and although that's from the outside in more or less, due to aluminum's good thermal conductivity, I think it heats fairly evenly in a small sample. And I've never seen the features of "melting" like they were in the video. Are those the typical features of RF melting? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 19:55:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA13996; Fri, 2 May 1997 19:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:56:01 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"ALBy2.0.bQ3.iWgQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:01 PM 5/3/97, Greg Watson wrote: [snip] > The >flux flows from and must return to its source, the moving electrons in >the wire. [snip] >As a second point, Jean-Louis's simple homopolar generator seems to be a >good proof that the magnetic field surrounding a magnet doesn't revolve >with the magnet. [snip] >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au I think the above two statements are inconsistant. IMHO, it must be true that the magnetic field rotates with the magnet. It is self evident if you assume the lines of flux originate in electrons which are bound to atoms within the magnet that the lines of flux must move with those atoms - especially if the magnet is not a conductor. Except for an electron located on the axis of the magnet's rotation, the rotational motion of the field is the some total of many small *linear translations*. If a flux line translates, it must also rotate, except for those in atoms on the axis. However, if the adjacnet flux lines all rotate, then so will the central axial flux lines, because they will be carried along by magnetic pressure. If you don't believe magnetic pressure exists I have an experiment for you. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 19:58:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA13028; Fri, 2 May 1997 19:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502194206.00a65f44 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:42:07 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"w-4IK2.0.UB3.QOgQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is very wrong. Inflation is caused by making money out of nothing ("OU money") for example the government printing more money without coverage in goods and of course the biggest evil: interest that generates money without coverage at a compound rate. Spending the proverbial dime 1000 times doesn't make it any less valuable than spending it once. Your mom was wrong. At 09:04 AM 5/2/97 -1000, you wrote: >Dan - > >>Does anyone ever wonder whether we're depleting the Earth's gravitational >>energy when we fall down? >> >>In the same way, we've never stopped to wonder what the *efffects* of using >>magnets may be. Greg's asking a good question that maybe should be answered >>for our current, "conventional" widespread use of magnets. > > >This reminds me of my Mom explaining economics to me when I was 4. > >"Say you have a dime, and you spend it. Now the person you gave it to >spends it. Then the next person, and so on. Pretty soon the dime's not >worth as much because so many people spent it. That's called 'inflation'." > >No wonder I'm still poor after that kind of up-bringing. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 20:24:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA01459; Fri, 2 May 1997 20:19:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:19:55 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:09:00 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"kV32u2.0.jM.QxgQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace - Thanks for posting the piece on this. I get it that the shielding would probably not work, though I'm still vague on why. On the idea of powering DC circuits riding along on the spinning armature, with no circuit path running out off the rotating disc: > Sure. There is no difference between the > stator and armature - unless you want pure > DC. Even then, the armature could consist > of rings with circuit elements in between > the rings and driven by the potential > difference between the rings, i.e. by the > current flowing through the armature. Would you mind restating this? Maybe I didn't make the example clear on my end. There's no brush pick-off of current in this example. Just a circuit mounted on the armature powered by part of it that swishes through the flux. It's a restatement of the case of a wire hanging vertically above the earth, and trying to string another wire up beside it to try to tap the potential seen between the top and bottom of the first wire while hiding this activity from the surrounding moving (relatively) flux. I understand that people have tried this on homopolars, and it doesn't work. I don't know if they tried shielding. That was the main question I had, how come you can't hide from the flux. If you can't, why then couldn't you shield the disc armature from the magnet where a check of the area shows very little or no magnetism in the vicinity of the disc ( I know you can do this much) - but when the disc is spun, current would be produced in the normal pick-off brush arrangement between rim and hub going to a normal external circuit? Can you see where I'm going wrong? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 20:27:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA02343; Fri, 2 May 1997 20:26:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:26:12 -0700 Message-ID: <336AB02D.91F microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 12:55:33 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Homopolar question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yD7PJ3.0.Ta.J1hQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 12:01 PM 5/3/97, Greg Watson wrote: > [snip] > > The > >flux flows from and must return to its source, the moving electrons in > >the wire. > [snip] > >As a second point, Jean-Louis's simple homopolar generator seems to be a > >good proof that the magnetic field surrounding a magnet doesn't revolve > >with the magnet. > [snip] > >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au > > I think the above two statements are inconsistant. Of course, they were about different magnetic effects. The first was about the fields around a wire carrying current (which a magnet can't duplicate) and the other was about the field generated by a rotating rig magnet. > IMHO, it must be true > that the magnetic field rotates with the magnet. If the field rotates with the magnet then Jean-Louis's simple homopolar generator will not work. It does however work, the magnet and the metal disk are bound together. As the device spins, it generated juice. This could only be caused by the rotation metal disk moving through the stationary (as far as the metal disk is concerned) magnetic field of the rotating ring magnet. > It is self evident if you > assume the lines of flux originate in electrons which are bound to atoms > within the magnet that the lines of flux Lines of flux don't exist, they are actually contour lines of equal magnetic potential "A". > must move with those atoms - > especially if the magnet is not a conductor. Move YES, exhibit a varying magnetic poential NO. > Except for an electron > located on the axis of the magnet's rotation, the rotational motion of the > field is the some total of many small *linear translations*. If a flux > line translates, it must also rotate, except for those in atoms on the > axis. However, if the adjacnet flux lines all rotate, then so will the > central axial flux lines, because they will be carried along by magnetic > pressure. If you don't believe magnetic pressure exists I have an > experiment for you. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hi Horace, There seems to be three classes of homopolar generator operation : 1) Stationary magnet and rotating metal disk. 2) Stationary metal disk and rotating magnet. 3) Rotating magnet and metal disk. What does this tell us about the magnets field? -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax 61 18 833 461 Mobile From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 21:01:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA20068; Fri, 2 May 1997 20:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:45:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:44:29 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"-EObT1.0.Uv4.mJhQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace - > IMHO, it must be true >that the magnetic field rotates with the magnet. If there's no way to detect that rotation, no effects from its rotation whatsoever on anything, then why would we consider it to really be rotating? I visualize it like a shadow of a spinning ball. Except for any little bumps or out-of-round, there's nothing going on with the shadow. This goes to gravity too. All the little particles pulling on all the other little particles, each one mailing a "graviton" to all the other little particle addresses in the universe all at once a jillion times a second. Yuk. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 21:08:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA21583; Fri, 2 May 1997 20:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:58:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970502194206.00a65f44 mail.localaccess.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:56:34 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects Resent-Message-ID: <"HPaA92.0.6H5.7VhQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Epitaxy - > I Your mom was wrong. And ridiculously so, of course. Maybe it was just a silly story to pull a 4 year old's leg. But I've always remembered it, and used it here to humorously illustrate the very point that it's silly to assume that you can get energy continuously from a spring, or that by using a spring you are gradually 'using up' the 'energy' that makes it springy. Now if a permanent magnet has properties *other* than that of a spring as Evan Soule suggests, then that's a different story. But conventionally, just bouncing a spring back and forth without overextending it, heating it, etc., won't use up the 'energy' that makes it spring back each time. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 21:57:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA12295; Fri, 2 May 1997 21:54:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:54:36 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502215439.00a76b90 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 21:54:40 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"pWUIR3.0.103.BKiQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I disagree. If you look at Greg's description below, the inclined release track is there ONLY to overcome the frictional losses of the entry track. Greg clearly states "zero ball energy at the entry point...", also the statement "... with the Black Box section removed..." is significant. In Greg's device the ball does NOT suffer repulsion as it enters the BlackBox, on the contrary, the ball is always attracted to the entry point. The reason for the calibrated release track is simple. If the release track was not used and the ball was far away from the Black Box on the level entry track only, the magnetic attraction would not be strong enough to get the ball moving from such a distance. Please remember that static friction is greater than dynamic (moving) friction. By using the inclined release track Greg overcomes the starting friction and is able to measure the work [W=Fd] over a large distance even if the distance [d] is is large and [F] to small to get the ball rolling. Please remember that if the Black Box was absent, the system of the release and exit track would impart exactly ZERO kinetic energy to the ball at the entry point (end of the entry track) The dilution of the back attraction force over a large distance is what worries me, and I dare to state that this is the only possible flaw in Greg's analysis. (back-attraction force integrated over exit distance). All of the other objections that people have been voicing (ie. demagnetization of the magnets, input energy, eddy currents, etc..) are silly, insignificant and could be all avoided if they took the time to understand what Greg is writing. Permanent magnets do not get demagnetized by performing work in the form of ferrite attraction. Demagnetization and magnet breakdown only happens if you push them to hard (ie. excessive H field from a coil or another stronger magnet, mechanical shock over critical G and thermal curie point). Almost everything can be destroyed if you push it to hard, it doesn't mean that it gets used up otherwise... At 11:34 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote: >One thing that bothers me is that Greg says the release track is ramped >at about 5 deg - so this rig DOES have an input energy At 10:24 AM 5/3/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: >>...with the "Black Box" section removed and varying the release >>point to get the ball to just roll to the end of the 1mtr entry track >>without dropping over the end. This I assumed gave me as close as zero >>ball energy at the entry point of the "Black Box" as possible. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 22:46:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA03392; Fri, 2 May 1997 22:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:43:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705030543.AAA15913 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"80VvL3.0.uq.E2jQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think Rick is now on the rocks for sure, Horace and Greg are like the Sirens, and my boat is half full of water! Rick, in yr latest homopolar example you said: >And what's "static" about the magnetic >field if the gizmo is rotating? I know the polarity doesn't change, because >it's in a homopolar configuration. Neither the polarity or the magnitude of the magnetic field going thru your little wire loop changes as it spins around because the homopolar generator has an axial magnetic field that has no angular variation. The shielding around one of the wires just routes the magnetic flux on either side of the wire and prevents it from actually touching the wire. This, as I mentioned earlier, does NOTHING to the induced emf in the wire...it's all in the total amount of magnetic flux passing thru the wire loop. Horace, here's the ultimate xfmr example: Consider a perfect toroid (Greg will remember this) with a uniform sheet of AC current flowing around in the usual direction that toroidal windings are applied. This geometry creates an AC B field in the interior of the toroid but, due to perfect cancellations, the B is identically zero everywhere outside the toroid. Now pass a turn of heavy wire through the center hole in the toroid and connect the free ends making a loop...POW! a big fat spark occurs as the wires touch and a LARGE AC current flows. (Try this yourself using the toroidal core from a Variac...it WORKS). How was this emf induced in that wire!? The B is all inside the core of the toroid and NONE of it ever touches the heavy wire. What is pushing on the electrons in the heavy wire loop? Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 2 23:34:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA23721; Fri, 2 May 1997 23:30:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:30:58 -0700 Message-ID: <336ADB71.645A microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 16:00:09 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Homopolar question References: <199705030543.AAA15913 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DrxV82.0.Zo5.XkjQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > I think Rick is now on the rocks for sure, Horace and Greg are like the Sirens, > and my boat is half full of water! I do sing well, but my hair isn't long. > Rick, in yr latest homopolar example you said: > > >And what's "static" about the magnetic > >field if the gizmo is rotating? I know the polarity doesn't change, because > >it's in a homopolar configuration. > > Neither the polarity or the magnitude of the magnetic field going thru your > little wire loop changes as it spins around because the homopolar generator > has an axial magnetic field that has no angular variation. The shielding > around one of the wires just routes the magnetic flux on either side of the > wire and prevents it from actually touching the wire. This, as I mentioned > earlier, does NOTHING to the induced emf in the wire...it's all in the total > amount of magnetic flux passing thru the wire loop. > > Horace, here's the ultimate xfmr example: Consider a perfect toroid (Greg > will remember this) Seems we never finished this discusion. You suggested the direction of current flow in the shorted turn was in line with the flux flowing in the toroid and I showed you that that this was not so and was in fact related to the external flux from the windings around the toroid. Seems that was when the corro stopped. I asked you to yield, remember? > with a uniform sheet of AC current flowing around in the > usual direction that toroidal windings are applied. This geometry creates > an AC B field in the interior of the toroid but, due to perfect > cancellations, the B is identically zero everywhere outside the toroid. No. Only in a column representing the centre of the toroid. Not everywhere else. Besides its not the "B" field we are interested in here. Its a changing magnetic potential "A". > Now > pass a turn of heavy wire through the center hole in the toroid and connect > the free ends making a loop...POW! a big fat spark occurs as the wires touch > and a LARGE AC current flows. (Try this yourself using the toroidal core > from a Variac...it WORKS). The big fat spark is a result of the efficient coupling of the two coils together. I showed you QField sims which clearly show the flux surrounding the wires in the toroid continuning to exist in space and the external path of the wire's flux was what induced the emf in the shorted turn. > How was this emf induced in that wire!? The B is all inside the core of the > toroid All the "B" is not in the core. Wires generate "H". Half of the "H" is in the core, half is in space. The "H" in the core causes domain alignment which generates a very much larger value of "B" in the core than in space as the "B" in space is the same as "H" but the "B" in the core is related to the permeability of the core material and may be several thousand times greater than the "B" in space. > and NONE of it ever touches the heavy wire. Except for the portion of the wire in the centre column where the magnetic potential "A" change is close to zero, the rest of the shorted turn receives induction from the AC current flowing through the wire wound around the toroid. > What is pushing on the > electrons in the heavy wire loop? The changing magnetic potential "A" generated from the rest of the wire in the turns around the toroid. Hi Scott, Yield now. I ask for the second time. > Scott Little > EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) > little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 00:01:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA08679; Fri, 2 May 1997 23:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:04:10 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"KaAoI1.0.T72.N9kQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:43 AM 5/3/97, Scott Little wrote: > >Horace, here's the ultimate xfmr example: Consider a perfect toroid (Greg >will remember this) with a uniform sheet of AC current flowing around in the >usual direction that toroidal windings are applied. This geometry creates >an AC B field in the interior of the toroid but, due to perfect >cancellations, the B is identically zero everywhere outside the toroid. Now >pass a turn of heavy wire through the center hole in the toroid and connect >the free ends making a loop...POW! a big fat spark occurs as the wires touch >and a LARGE AC current flows. (Try this yourself using the toroidal core >from a Variac...it WORKS). > >How was this emf induced in that wire!? The B is all inside the core of the >toroid and NONE of it ever touches the heavy wire. What is pushing on the >electrons in the heavy wire loop? > >Scott Little No no no! You just proved my point! The flux crosses the center of the toroid as I said earlier. The magnetic flux doesn't just magically and instantly form rings inside the torus. Each line of induced flux in the core that is totally enclosed in the core grows from its atom of origin and crosses the void to get to the other side. Look at the geometry. It doesn't matter what direction the expanding flux comes from - the induced emf *adds* in the wire. When the flux later collapses it adds in the opposite direction. It does not cancel in the center of the torus. Almost the entire H induced emf in the wire is enduced in the wire in the center of the toroid between the two planes (top and bottom) that bound the wire coils. Almost the entire M induced emf is induced between the planes bounding the top and bottom of the *core*. I should qualify this as EM ala me, just my understanding, and I don't know who else's. Others, like Michael J Schaeffer prefer to look at the field generated in the center of the torus as an E field instead of lots of lines of flux zapping across the center from every direction, every flux arrow pointing clockwise or counter-clockwise depending on the flux expanding or collapsing and the current directions. This notion was the entire basis of my baseball seam spherical core design of the suddenly reluctant torus - an attempt to get the collapsing flux to tangle in the center of the sphere and generate a massive EM energy concentration. Remember all that boring nonsense? Maybe we should drop the EM junk? At least I should. I don't wan't to bore everybody to death, especially after all the postings on grad B drift, TEDD, in which nobody has any further interest. I think "sirens" with a small "s" is more like it! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 00:21:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA10219; Sat, 3 May 1997 00:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:24:23 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: John Hutchison Resent-Message-ID: <"SUGso.0.bV2.CSkQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 4:36 PM 5/2/97, Rick Monteverde wrote: >[snip] > It breaks up in sort of rectangular chunks and >splinters, and little bits of it melts away. I've melted aluminum many >times in a gas flame before, and although that's from the outside in more >or less, due to aluminum's good thermal conductivity, I think it heats >fairly evenly in a small sample. And I've never seen the features of >"melting" like they were in the video. Are those the typical features of RF >melting? > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI If I were going to fake that I would use inductive heating, a dessicated atmosphere, and a frozen mercury bar. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 01:01:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA12794; Sat, 3 May 1997 00:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:04:21 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"ESMGk1.0.l73.t1lQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:44 PM 5/2/97, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > > > IMHO, it must be true > >that the magnetic field rotates with the magnet. > >If there's no way to detect that rotation, no effects from its rotation >whatsoever on anything, then why would we consider it to really be >rotating? I visualize it like a shadow of a spinning ball. Except for any >little bumps or out-of-round, there's nothing going on with the shadow. This is totally nonsensical! If the atom is the source of a line of flux, and you move the atom ten feet sideways, you would expect the line of flux to move ten feet sideways. Yet if you take the same atom with the same attached line of flux and stick it in a very big wheel magnet that moves the atom ten feet sideways as it rotates, you expect the flux to stay back where it was? No, it moves with the atom. > >This goes to gravity too. All the little particles pulling on all the other >little particles, each one mailing a "graviton" to all the other little >particle addresses in the universe all at once a jillion times a second. >Yuk. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Too many things unknown about gravity. If it is electromagnetic or EM linked, then similar mechanisms to the photon must apply. Consider: you light a candle, and the ends of the universe are illuminated. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 01:01:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA12818; Sat, 3 May 1997 00:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:04:17 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"xSOdK.0.C83.y1lQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:09 PM 5/2/97, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > >Thanks for posting the piece on this. I get it that the shielding would >probably not work, though I'm still vague on why. > >On the idea of powering DC circuits riding along on the spinning armature, >with no circuit path running out off the rotating disc: > > > Sure. There is no difference between the > > stator and armature - unless you want pure > > DC. Even then, the armature could consist > > of rings with circuit elements in between > > the rings and driven by the potential > > difference between the rings, i.e. by the > > current flowing through the armature. > >Would you mind restating this? Maybe I didn't make the example clear on my >end. There's no brush pick-off of current in this example. Just a circuit >mounted on the armature powered by part of it that swishes through the >flux. I understand. You can not get current flow in the manner you stated the problem, i.e. that the circuit is simply mounted to the armature, but not electrically in series with it. When the armature starts up a voltage gradient is formed across the circuit mounted on the armature. There is no way to complete a circuit without going back through this gradient - thus no current can flow. The way to get current to flow is to separate the disk into two disks - an innner disk and outer disk. The circuit mounted on the armature then electrically connects the two concentric disks and conducts the full current of the generator. The current path is closed by the stator part of the circuit. If the full current is too much, then a bypass shunt, as in an ammeter, can be used. You can't get much voltage though! >It's a restatement of the case of a wire hanging vertically above the >earth, and trying to string another wire up beside it to try to tap the >potential seen between the top and bottom of the first wire while hiding >this activity from the surrounding moving (relatively) flux. I understand >that people have tried this on homopolars, and it doesn't work. Of course not. THe circular lines of flux cut the circuit twice - in opposite directions, thus cancelling any effect. > I don't >know if they tried shielding. That was the main question I had, how come >you can't hide from the flux. Tie a piece of string into a circle. Tie a second piece of string into a circle, but linked through the first piece of string to form interlocked circles. Now, by placing some covering, e.g. some hose, pipe, etc, on one or both pieces of string, try to seperate them without breaking either piece of string. The "shielding" does no good in solving the topological problem. >If you can't, why then couldn't you shield >the disc armature from the magnet where a check of the area shows very >little or no magnetism in the vicinity of the disc ( I know you can do this >much) - but when the disc is spun, current would be produced in the normal >pick-off brush arrangement between rim and hub going to a normal external >circuit? > >Can you see where I'm going wrong? > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Yes - you still don't understand the geometrical aspects. Using the string analogy, the homopolar motor is like the interlocking string analogy, except one piece of string is cut and a turnstyle placed in the gap. The second piece of string can go right through the turnstyle (with correct timing). The turnstyle acts like the armature. It is the fact that you can push a ring of flux into the ring of the circuit, generating voltage by cutting the stator circuit wire, yet pull the flux ring out of the circuit ring without cutting the stator circuit, by slipping it through the turnstyle, and thus avoiding generating a counter voltage, that makes the homopolar work. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 01:17:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA30662; Sat, 3 May 1997 01:16:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:16:06 -0700 Message-ID: <336AF374.1F20 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 17:42:36 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Homopolar question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HTRHi.0.yU7.6HlQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > This is totally nonsensical! If the atom is the source of a line of flux, > and you move the atom ten feet sideways, you would expect the line of flux > to move ten feet sideways. Yet if you take the same atom with the same > attached line of flux and stick it in a very big wheel magnet that moves > the atom ten feet sideways as it rotates, you expect the flux to stay back > where it was? No, it moves with the atom. Hi Horace, Of course it follows the atom, but so does the field generated by all the other atoms and the net macro effect is of no change in the magnetic potential A of the spinning magnet. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 01:36:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA31556; Sat, 3 May 1997 01:35:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:35:25 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:34:32 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: John Hutchison Resent-Message-ID: <"R08cf1.0.-i7.CZlQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace - > If I were going to fake that I would use > inductive heating, a dessicated atmosphere, > and a frozen mercury bar. Yup, I thought of mercury too. But there were also shots of lots and lots of samples of various metals stored on a rack that were being handled and banged around, and displayed in close-up shots, and they all showed these same splintered characteristics. It's as though they had a large budget and spent time faking up all this stuff, doing a nice job on all the metal, and then just filmed it with a video camera real cheezy and amateur-like. In other words, it looked pretty real. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 01:45:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA32200; Sat, 3 May 1997 01:44:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:44:12 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:48:36 -0800 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"6ohUs.0.-s7.RhlQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:55 PM 5/3/97, Greg Watson wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >> At 12:01 PM 5/3/97, Greg Watson wrote: >> [snip] >> > The >> >flux flows from and must return to its source, the moving electrons in >> >the wire. >> [snip] >> >As a second point, Jean-Louis's simple homopolar generator seems to be a >> >good proof that the magnetic field surrounding a magnet doesn't revolve >> >with the magnet. >> [snip] >> >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >> >> I think the above two statements are inconsistant. > >Of course, they were about different magnetic effects. Don't think so. Either flux orirginates from charged particles or does not. Doesn't matter if the electrons are free in the wire, or orbital in the ferrous core. > The first was >about the fields around a wire carrying current (which a magnet can't >duplicate) and the other was about the field generated by a rotating rig >magnet. Doesn't matter. > >> IMHO, it must be true >> that the magnetic field rotates with the magnet. > >If the field rotates with the magnet then Jean-Louis's simple homopolar >generator will not work. Not true. It does not matter if the magnet moves or not. A homopolar works only because of the relative motion of the stator and armatur. It can not tell you anything about the angular velocity of the magnetic field. The motion of the the reference frames is relative and the motion of the field cancels. >It does however work, the magnet and the metal >disk are bound together. As the device spins, it generated juice. This >could only be caused by the rotation metal disk moving through the >stationary (as far as the metal disk is concerned) magnetic field of the >rotating ring magnet. No. See my posts on how the homopolar works. > >> It is self evident if you >> assume the lines of flux originate in electrons which are bound to atoms >> within the magnet that the lines of flux > >Lines of flux don't exist, they are actually contour lines of equal >magnetic potential "A". Prove it! 8^) Though just different ways of looking at the phenomena, can you tell me jsut where in spoace the magentic potential lies? I think not. It is imaginary! Flux, on the other hand seems to always have a real demonstrable location, and is quantized. There is just no accounting for taste, is there! 8^) > >> must move with those atoms - >> especially if the magnet is not a conductor. > >Move YES, exhibit a varying magnetic poential NO. The field rotates at drift velocity. Not sure why this should affect A. > >> Except for an electron >> located on the axis of the magnet's rotation, the rotational motion of the >> field is the some total of many small *linear translations*. If a flux >> line translates, it must also rotate, except for those in atoms on the >> axis. However, if the adjacnet flux lines all rotate, then so will the >> central axial flux lines, because they will be carried along by magnetic >> pressure. If you don't believe magnetic pressure exists I have an >> experiment for you. >> >> Regards, >> >> Horace Heffner > >Hi Horace, > >There seems to be three classes of homopolar generator operation : > >1) Stationary magnet and rotating metal disk. > >2) Stationary metal disk and rotating magnet. > >3) Rotating magnet and metal disk. > >What does this tell us about the magnets field? No, all three can rotate at any relative speed. All you can determine is that the speed of the magnetic field rotation is not important to the operation of the device and is therefore indeterminate from use of the device. > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > 61 18 833 461 Mobile Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 01:48:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA32524; Sat, 3 May 1997 01:47:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:47:31 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:52:42 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"CXaTg3.0.6y7.YklQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >> This is totally nonsensical! If the atom is the source of a line of flux, >> and you move the atom ten feet sideways, you would expect the line of flux >> to move ten feet sideways. Yet if you take the same atom with the same >> attached line of flux and stick it in a very big wheel magnet that moves >> the atom ten feet sideways as it rotates, you expect the flux to stay back >> where it was? No, it moves with the atom. > >Hi Horace, > >Of course it follows the atom, but so does the field generated by all >the other atoms and the net macro effect is of no change in the magnetic >potential A of the spinning magnet. > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax Well if the flux moves with the atom then the field rotates. QED. The magnetic potential is irrelevent it seems to me. Further, various attempts to "find" A in the form a longitudinal force have failed. Where is A exactly? What *is* relevent is that a potential difference is generated in conductors inserted in the moving (rotating) flux. If the magnet oscillates in a rotating manner instead of uniformly rotating then the effect of the field rotation is much easier to measure. A good sensitive FET should work to enable you to see the effect of the flux cutting from a rotating magnet - because the current suppression is driven by potential gradient and not by gate current. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 01:49:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA16151; Sat, 3 May 1997 01:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:48:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199705030543.AAA15913 natasha.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:47:00 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"Z6xaG.0.Hy3.MllQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott - > Neither the polarity or the magnitude of the > magnetic field going thru your little wire > loop changes as it spins around because the > homopolar generator has an axial magnetic > field that has no angular variation. The > shielding around one of the wires just > routes the magnetic flux on either side of > the wire and prevents it from actually > touching the wire. Ok, I'm down with that first part. But it's still the shielding that I can't quite get past. In the drawing, the magnet is near an iron shield, which looks like it should be a disc in the drawing. There is no conductive disc. The wire loop is the armature instead, and rotates around the axis, passing around the rim of the shield. Charge is induced on the left leg, but the right leg is shielded - supposedly. The axial shaft is conductive, the wire attached to it at the wire ends through slip rings. My question is why wouldn't a current flow around the loop of the wire and back through the shaft. wire _______ | _ | | | | | | _| | | || | | | =============== axial shaft |_| | magnet | | |_| iron shield - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 02:04:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA00779; Sat, 3 May 1997 02:03:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 02:03:55 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:09:05 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"f5mDd.0.5C.wzlQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:47 PM 5/2/97, Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] >Ok, I'm down with that first part. But it's still the shielding that I >can't quite get past. In the drawing, the magnet is near an iron shield, >which looks like it should be a disc in the drawing. There is no conductive >disc. The wire loop is the armature instead, and rotates around the axis, >passing around the rim of the shield. Charge is induced on the left leg, >but the right leg is shielded - supposedly. The axial shaft is conductive, >the wire attached to it at the wire ends through slip rings. My question is >why wouldn't a current flow around the loop of the wire and back through >the shaft. > > wire > _______ > | _ | > x|xx| | | > x | _| | | > x|x | | | > =============== axial shaft > |_| | > magnet | | > |_| > > iron shield > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Rick, The lines of flux cutting the wire all cut it *twice*, thus cancelling, except for the flux actually coming out of the axial shaft. See flux marked xxx above. This would make a very poor motor. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 02:25:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA18093; Sat, 3 May 1997 02:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 02:24:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:22:54 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"2VV6w3.0.dQ4._GmQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > This is totally nonsensical! If the atom is > the source of a line of flux, and you move > the atom ten feet sideways, you would > expect the line of flux to move ten feet > sideways. I don't think it's nonsensical. Just counterintuitive, and proven by experiment. For all practical purposes, symmetrical magnetic fields cannot be rotated about their polar axes. They can translate in linear motion, and they can rotate about axes set off their poles, but that's it. They don't quite seem to possess all the usual 3D properties other things have. And there *are no* field lines. Faraday just made that one up. The classical field is just a smooth dimple in terms of certain qualities of space. The quantum one, I have no idea. I know if you put two tiny dipoles on the ends of a stick and twirl the stick, you see fields coming and going from a stationary point nearby. Keep adding sticks and dipoles until you've got a large solid, and there's your sphere or cylinder rotating. But all those little bumps in the field from individual atoms when sensed billions of atomic diameters away by charge carriers in a conductor amount to exactly nothing in terms of detectability and therefore in a sense, their reality. Do you see the dip between the fields of two atoms right next to each other from 3 inches away? Does a field really 'really' rotate? I don't know. But it doesn't matter to a homopolar, does it. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 02:29:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA18638; Sat, 3 May 1997 02:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 02:28:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:27:11 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"6X465.0.7Z4.1LmQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > Yes - you still don't understand the geometrical aspects. You've got that right. I need some cogitatin' time for this one. Think I'll just stretch out here on these rocks and get some sun. Hey, those people in that boat - are they waving at us? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 02:44:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA19215; Sat, 3 May 1997 02:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 02:43:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:41:49 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"u5bFs.0.8i4.kYmQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > The lines of flux cutting the wire all cut it > *twice*, thus cancelling, except for the > flux actually coming out of the axial shaft. > See flux marked xxx above. This would > make a very poor motor. Well it's not supposed to be a motor, but I can see what you're saying. Are you sure that would be the geometry of the flux? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 02:49:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA19549; Sat, 3 May 1997 02:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 02:48:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:46:44 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"P00Nt.0.Nn4.LdmQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > wire > _______ > | _ | > x|xx| | | > x | _| | | > x|x | | | > =============== axial shaft > |_| | > magnet | | > |_| > > iron shield Then say we just made that wire back into a normal disc on one side of the shield only, but left the shield in place. Use a brush and a slip ring to pick off from the shaft and the rim in the usual way. Would we then get no current? This is starting to look like real benchtop tests are called for. I feel like I'm certainly riding along on too many assumptions, and probably others are as well. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 04:04:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA22797; Sat, 3 May 1997 04:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 04:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BC5777.32BB6D40 ip129.ts6.phx.inficad.com> From: Reed Huish To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: John Hutchison Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 03:26:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BC5777.32C30E60" Resent-Message-ID: <"M0LIC3.0.6a5.PjnQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC5777.32C30E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have located a firm which sells the Hutchison video and have ordered their catalog. I'll post the information on the list when it arrives. Note to Gene Mallove: I think you could do an interesting article on this in IE! Is there anyone on the list in Vancouver who could look up John Hutchison? (spelled correctly) If not, he could probably be contacted through the producers of SU Our group is funding Hutchison's energy research. Some of the details are listed on our web-site if interested. - Reed Huish Zenergy Corp http://zenergy.com ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC5777.32C30E60 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgwLAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAHAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2lt by5jb20AU01UUAB2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAUAAAAdm9ydGV4LWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbQADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAWAAAA J3ZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20nAAAAAgELMAEAAAAZAAAAU01UUDpWT1JURVgtTEBFU0tJTU8u Q09NAAAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAACMDMBBIABABMAAABSRTogSm9o biBIdXRjaGlzb24AVQYBBYADAA4AAADNBwUAAwADABoAIwAGACIBASCAAwAOAAAAzQcFAAMAAwAX ADIABgAuAQEJgAEAIQAAADYxQkJBQTQ3Q0RDMkQwMTFCOTdDMDA0MDk1NDAyN0NGACcHAQOQBgD8 AwAAFAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAIGUCeqxX vAEeAHAAAQAAABMAAABSRTogSm9obiBIdXRjaGlzb24AAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG8V6x58Uequ2LC zRHQuXwAQJVAJ88AAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAARAAAAcmVlZEB6ZW5lcmd5 LmNvbQAAAAADAAYQ7+Mj4gMABxC4AQAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAASUhBVkVMT0NBVEVEQUZJUk1XSElD SFNFTExTVEhFSFVUQ0hJU09OVklERU9BTkRIQVZFT1JERVJFRFRIRUlSQ0FUQUxPR0lMTFBPU1RU SEVJTkZPUk1BVElPTk9OVEhFTElTVAAAAAACAQkQAQAAAHUCAABxAgAAqgMAAExaRnUWvKOy/wAK AQ8CFQKkA+QF6wKDAFATA1QCAGNoCsBzZXTuMgYABsMCgzIDxgcTAoO6MxMNfQqACM8J2TsV/3gy NTUCgAqBDbELYG4wZzEwMxQgCwNsabwzNg3wC1UUIgwBcANgTnQFkAVACoVJIBHAdiRlIBWQY2Eb MGQgAGEgZmlybSB3lGhpEbAgEfBsbAQgxHRoHEBIdXQRsAQAUQIgIHZpDbBvHNBu/xzAHBMFsASB HLEeER0QCoVDHIEHQG9nLiAb4CfhHdAgcG9zBUAeEguA9wIQHSAckGkewR7BHhIZwP8iMR1QCfAi kAVACsAFEBwwunMhkU4bIR4AHzBHCfC6ZQqFTQdAFZAcMDohoeMeAQuAayB5CGAhEAhg+mwcwGQf MiKRGzAWACIwzQuAZySRIxBjbB/BI3LnBAAikRvgRSEhoR3zFgC/CoUAcCeQJeAjWypRVgBwfyfR HDAFwB1QHzAn1BWQb4EncHVwIEpvaAOgwR5XPyAoc3AdwQmAjyC2BbAWABtQbHkpIaHoZiBuGyAs HAAcQCfUzRsBYgGgMUAgYjIiAjDPANAcoh4QA2B1Zx2QHhKxGwFkdWMEkAQgbzGgvFNVCo8LkRLy DAFjAED1G3ZPCHAgCcAIYC7AKiHcZnUfYCkSHlcnBCAl0exyZzMQKNFlCsARsCGR/lMDcB/BMaAe Eg2wAZADED8EIArAI7QcsSMyOCF3ZXxiLQCQJWEGkCiHCYAu+zW1NbUtB/AJ4BzAHlAEADZoNbUh oFo6JQhQcnAXNbsZyzb5aAJAcDov1C96OiQuBaBtQy0bDQUVIQBHkAAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAA AABAAAcwIB7UF6xXvAFAAAgwIB7UF6xXvAEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAAaQs= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC5777.32C30E60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 04:46:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA07661; Sat, 3 May 1997 04:45:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 04:45:56 -0700 Message-ID: <336B254A.34B5 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:15:14 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Homopolar question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YWTP4.0.dt1.qLoQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > >> I think the above two statements are inconsistant. > > > >Of course, they were about different magnetic effects. > > Don't think so. Either flux orirginates from charged particles or does not. > Doesn't matter if the electrons are free in the wire, or orbital in the > ferrous core. My statement was based on the field generated by a wire, which can't be duplicated by a magnet. > > The first was > >about the fields around a wire carrying current (which a magnet can't > >duplicate) and the other was about the field generated by a rotating rig > >magnet. > > Doesn't matter. The field contours generated are different. Magnetic effects can be created by wire carrying current that magnets can't duplicate like contiguous B fields. > >> IMHO, it must be true > >> that the magnetic field rotates with the magnet. > > > >If the field rotates with the magnet then Jean-Louis's simple homopolar > >generator will not work. > > Not true. It does not matter if the magnet moves or not. A homopolar works > only because of the relative motion of the stator and armatur. It can not > tell you anything about the angular velocity of the magnetic field. The > motion of the the reference frames is relative and the motion of the field > cancels. To my knowledge there are three variations of a homopolar generator comprising of a disk of conductive metal and a ring magnet, magnetized through the face, both on the same axis. 1) Stationary magnet and rotating disc. 2) Stationary disc and rotating magnet. 3) Rotating magnet and disc. Horace, will all three variations generate voltage? > >It does however work, the magnet and the metal > >disk are bound together. As the device spins, it generated juice. This > >could only be caused by the rotation metal disk moving through the > >stationary (as far as the metal disk is concerned) magnetic field of the > >rotating ring magnet. > > No. See my posts on how the homopolar works. > > > > >> It is self evident if you > >> assume the lines of flux originate in electrons which are bound to atoms > >> within the magnet that the lines of flux > > > >Lines of flux don't exist, they are actually contour lines of equal > >magnetic potential "A". > > Prove it! 8^) Though just different ways of looking at the phenomena, can > you tell me jsut where in spoace the magentic potential lies? I think not. > It is imaginary! Flux, on the other hand seems to always have a real > demonstrable location, and is quantized. There is just no accounting for > taste, is there! 8^) Hi Horace, Sorry I should have said contour lines of constant "B". -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 07:59:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA09275; Sat, 3 May 1997 07:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:02:38 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"1PS4W1.0.pG2.r9rQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:22 PM 5/2/97, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > > > This is totally nonsensical! If the atom is > > the source of a line of flux, and you move > > the atom ten feet sideways, you would > > expect the line of flux to move ten feet > > sideways. > >I don't think it's nonsensical. Just counterintuitive, and proven by >experiment. You give me an experiment and I'll give you an alternative interpretation. Don't forget, if two theories are isomorphic - then there is no difference! 8^) > >For all practical purposes, symmetrical magnetic fields cannot be rotated >about their polar axes. Garbage! Evidence? >They can translate in linear motion, and they can >rotate about axes set off their poles, but that's it. They don't quite seem >to possess all the usual 3D properties other things have. Hogwash. Rotation consists of translations of non=axial points. >And there *are >no* field lines. Faraday just made that one up. Again - proof? > >The classical field is just a smooth dimple in terms of certain qualities >of space. The quantum one, I have no idea. I know if you put two tiny >dipoles on the ends of a stick and twirl the stick, you see fields coming >and going from a stationary point nearby. Keep adding sticks and dipoles >until you've got a large solid, and there's your sphere or cylinder >rotating. But all those little bumps in the field from individual atoms >when sensed billions of atomic diameters away by charge carriers in a >conductor amount to exactly nothing in terms of detectability and therefore >in a sense, their reality. Do you see the dip between the fields of two >atoms right next to each other from 3 inches away? Does a field really >'really' rotate? I don't know. You are ignoring the effects of magnetic pressure. Field lines are actually tubes that can stretch lengthwise and compress lateraly - or axially. Filed lines for two atoms in space may not be readily detectable at 3 inches, but, with enough pressure from neighboring field lines thay can easily be stretched 3 inches and contribute to "cutting a conductor" 3 inches away, or, through their motion, building an electrostatic field 3 inches away. >But it doesn't matter to a homopolar, does >it. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI The magnetic circuit matters very much to a homopolar design. Take a look at your misconceptions about the "shield" and failure to understand the independence of the field rotation in the design. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 08:01:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA30846; Sat, 3 May 1997 07:57:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:57:29 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:02:43 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"B-BGo1.0.qX7.O9rQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:27 PM 5/2/97, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > > > Yes - you still don't understand the geometrical aspects. > >You've got that right. I need some cogitatin' time for this one. > >Think I'll just stretch out here on these rocks and get some sun. Hey, >those people in that boat - are they waving at us? > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Hey I would have been envious a month ago, but summer is here now. It was 56 in Palmer, Alaska yesterday! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 08:03:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA30883; Sat, 3 May 1997 07:57:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:57:33 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:02:45 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"B1h481.0.TY7.T9rQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:41 PM 5/2/97, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > > > The lines of flux cutting the wire all cut it > > *twice*, thus cancelling, except for the > > flux actually coming out of the axial shaft. > > See flux marked xxx above. This would > > make a very poor motor. > >Well it's not supposed to be a motor, but I can see what you're saying. Are >you sure that would be the geometry of the flux? > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI I am sure that, except for the tiny bit of flux which exits through the shaft without cutting the wire twice, the flux cuts the conductor twice thus cancelling the net voltage. The x's are obviously only a rough approximation - but do give the correct concept - assuming the magnet is like a magnetron magnet - with lines of flux in the mid-plane parallel to the central axis. If you wanted to improve the design, make the *shaft* of ferrous material, and make it bigger. The "shield" as shown can improve things, but not by acting as a shield, but by decreasing the magnetic circuit resistance. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 08:19:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA11302; Sat, 3 May 1997 08:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 08:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:23:00 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"Fn4Im1.0.Wm2.vSrQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:46 PM 5/2/97, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > >> wire >> _______ >> | _ | >> x|xx| | | >> x | _| | | >> x|x | | | >> =============== axial shaft >> |_| | >> magnet | | >> |_| >> >> iron shield > >Then say we just made that wire back into a normal disc on one side of the >shield only, but left the shield in place. Use a brush and a slip ring to >pick off from the shaft and the rim in the usual way. Would we then get no >current? > >This is starting to look like real benchtop tests are called for. I feel >like I'm certainly riding along on too many assumptions, and probably >others are as well. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI >> wire >> _______ >> | _ | >> x|xx| | | >> x I _| | | >> xIx | | | >> =============== axial shaft >> I|_| | >> magneI | | >> |_| >> >> iron shield If you mean make the places marked "I" above a rotating copper wheel, then yes that would work OK. Things work much better if the air is filled in with ferrous material (e.g. iron laminates or iron filings) but not ferrites, which saturate at too low a B. However, in doing a motor or generator design, it is sometimes important to remember that the field rotates with the material that produces it! For example, if the H from a stationary coil induces B1 in a stationary core and B2 in a coupled but rotating core, only the B2 flix rotates. Similarly if rotating magnet with field B1 induces B2 in a stationary core, then only field B2 rotates. Fortunately, with the homopolar generator, the voltage induced is completely independent of the magnetic field rotation rate in any absolute sense, so it doesn't even matter if there are two fields mutually rotating! What doesn't cut the stator cuts the armature, and vice versa. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 08:30:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA01738; Sat, 3 May 1997 08:29:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 08:29:35 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:34:43 -0800 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"kr_-I2.0.0R.VdrQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:15 PM 5/3/97, Greg Watson wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >> >> I think the above two statements are inconsistant. >> > >> >Of course, they were about different magnetic effects. >> >> Don't think so. Either flux orirginates from charged particles or does not. >> Doesn't matter if the electrons are free in the wire, or orbital in the >> ferrous core. > >My statement was based on the field generated by a wire, which can't be >duplicated by a magnet. [snip] >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax Well, that's a new one! I didn't know you could tell one kind of flux from another. How do you do that, given the source is in a black box? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 09:04:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA16684; Sat, 3 May 1997 09:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 09:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336B60D3.5DE microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 01:29:16 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Homopolar question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZUz6s.0.c44.M4sQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 9:15 PM 5/3/97, Greg Watson wrote: > >Horace Heffner wrote: > >> > >> >> I think the above two statements are inconsistant. > >> > > >> >Of course, they were about different magnetic effects. > >> > >> Don't think so. Either flux orirginates from charged particles or does not. > >> Doesn't matter if the electrons are free in the wire, or orbital in the > >> ferrous core. > > > >My statement was based on the field generated by a wire, which can't be > >duplicated by a magnet. > [snip] > >-- > >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au > >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > > Well, that's a new one! I didn't know you could tell one kind of flux from > another. How do you do that, given the source is in a black box? > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hi Horace, I think you [snip] too much. I gave an example that a current carrying wire can generate a contiguous B field. This is something a magnet can't do. I grant you the basic substance (whatever it may be) of magnetic field are the same with wires and magnets. But the field contours generated are different. A wire can create the field contours of a magnet can, but a magnet can't always create the field contours a wire can. If a magnet could generate a contiguous B field, then purely magnet based motors would be very simple to make. What bout the three classes of homopolar generators I posed? Will they all generate a emf? -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 09:24:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA07863; Sat, 3 May 1997 09:23:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 09:23:13 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 08:28:26 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"qac7Z3.0.nw1.mPsQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:29 AM 5/4/97, Greg Watson wrote: [snip] > >What bout the three classes of homopolar generators I posed? Will they >all generate a emf? > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax You must not be reading my posts. How many ways can I say it doesn't matter how the magnet rotates? It only matters that the stator and armature have a mutal rotation? As soon as you throw in the reference frame of the observer there are infinitely more than the 3 classes. If you ignore the magnet frame of reference, and the observer frame of reference, since neither is important, then there are only two classes of homopolar motors/generators. Those where the armature and stator have relative motion, and those that don't. All the classes you list, and the infinity of others, provided there is not some design error, produce emf, provided the armature and stator move relative to each other. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 10:06:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA25791; Sat, 3 May 1997 10:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 10:03:48 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest Sender: kurtz IMAP2.ASU.EDU To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Simeon for Win32 Version 4.0.9 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Priority: NORMAL X-Authentication: none Resent-Message-ID: <"OwrWo3.0.uI6.Q0tQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 02 May 1997 21:12:14 +0930 Greg Watson wrote: > > Hi Rick, > > Thanks for the genuine comments. > > Looks like I have been too close to this thing. Maybe I can't see the > woods for the trees. > > I have explained the results I am getting with my linear model. I ask > for feedback as to where and / or how I may be making a mistake. I ask > for feedback as to how I can improve my test setup. But the only > feedback I get is "CLOSE THE LOOP". > > I can show a real energy gain and I ask for comment on where the energy > may be coming from. What do I get, "CLOSE THE LOOP". > > I express concern for the cost of using this energy and ask for > comment. "CLOSE THE LOOP" comes back. > > When I do close the loop, with all respect, don't need the unit to be > tested to tell me its working. Any pair of Mark 1 human eyes will do > the job very well. > > I asked for feedback to involve ALL of you in this. I expected more > than just a group of "CLOSE THE LOOP" lurkers. Thats why I asked for > expressions of interest. I am trying to sort the interest. > > Maybe I am too close and have got this reply all wrong. I don't want to > offend anyone. If I do, I apologize in advance. You probably don't > realize how much I value the feedback from this group (both positive and > negative). But I get so little. > > I set up a special interest group to discuss and duplicate elements of > the device my patent attorney will allow me to disclose without choping > my keyboard cable. But even with them I can only go so far, although > some are getting warm. > > Well Greg, I don't see how you can expect any more from this group than you are getting. Don't confuse interest with belief. I am very interested in what you are doing but also confess to being very skeptical that it, whatever it is, is over unity or that you will be able to successfully close the loop and make, for example, a self- running generator. That would be a feat fantantastic beyond description, and you would highly deserve any fame, riches, or any other good fortune coming your way because of it. However, as a reader of this list, all I know about your gadget is that is apparently uses magnets and kinetics in some way and provides torque output. How can you expect intelligent and useful feedback from us about the possible "gotchas" in your test setup, or ways to improve it, or the "costs" of using this type energy when we don't even know what the hell your experiment is??? Have I missed your postings of the details of your experiment? The only other thing I know about your experiment is that it is your impression that it is over unity, but your efforts to date to "close the loop" have not been successful. Not knowing the details of your invention, nevertheless I suspect that this lack of success would be predicted by standard conservation of energy laws. Given the circumstances, I can't see how you can expect anything except "best wishes for your success" and "I will believe it when I see it -- close the loop and show me" from readers of this group. -- Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 10:19:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA27080; Sat, 3 May 1997 10:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:14:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705031714.MAA02304 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Toroid - H outside? Resent-Message-ID: <"vjoGc2.0.-c6.sAtQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:00 PM 5/3/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: >All the "B" is not in the core. Wires generate "H". Half of the "H" is >in the core, half is in space. Let's take this argument one small step at a time. I think that a perfect toroidal sheet of current (a situation that is closely approached by a tight winding on a toroidal core) has zero H outside the core of the toroid. Not a small H...but zero H. If your QuickField FEA models showed some H outside a toroid, I believe that it had to be due only to numerical errors caused by mesh coarseness or other FEA problems. Could we have a few votes on this point? Mike Schaeffer, Hal, Horace, etc? Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 10:26:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA28132; Sat, 3 May 1997 10:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336B745B.5357 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 13:22:35 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Homopolar Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eQM8d2.0.Kt6.LHtQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gee, Greg and Horace, I hope you guys are'nt getting mad! For myself, the homopolar machine is a tricky sucker to understand. OK, Greg, by my CURRENT understanding, on your three homopolar machines, if they all use brushes on the disks, then I think the 1st and 3rd will work, but the second will not. I think the second is a lot like the first would be if the load circuit rotated with the disk. The third works because, if you have a conductive magnet (like steel), you don't even need a separate disk - the whole magnet is radially polarized and will work thru brushes to a stationary load. I know the first works - I tried it. My reference says the 3rd works. How about the 2nd? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 11:36:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA07519; Sat, 3 May 1997 11:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:34:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 08:32:42 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"fYQoz1.0.Mr1.UKuQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - >Hey I would have been envious a month ago, but summer is here now. It was >56 in Palmer, Alaska yesterday! You know, I can get envious of 56. My brain melts in the summer here. This homopolar thread is probably the last thinking I'll do here until November. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 11:36:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA24788; Sat, 3 May 1997 11:35:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:35:11 -0700 Message-ID: <336B8585.659C interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 14:35:49 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? References: <199705031714.MAA02304 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CMzL.0.E36.ULuQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > Not a > small H...but zero H. > For what it's worth, I agree, Scott. As a note to your earlier toroidal transformer example - it works with a vacuum inside the toroid - no need for magnetic matter here! (I have to leave now - I think Horace is about to make me crazy again!) Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 12:02:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA09996; Sat, 3 May 1997 11:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:54:25 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: $imple OU Device effects In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970502194206.00a65f44 mail.localaccess.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"lE_x3.0.5S2.YduQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 2 May 1997, Epitaxy wrote: > Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:42:07 -0700 > From: Epitaxy > > > This is very wrong. Inflation is caused by making money out of nothing > ("OU money") for example the government printing more money without > coverage in goods and of course the biggest evil: interest that generates > money without coverage at a compound rate. > > Spending the proverbial dime 1000 times doesn't make it any less valuable > than spending it once. > > > At 09:04 AM 5/2/97 -1000, you wrote: > >Dan - > >"Say you have a dime, and you spend it. Now the person you gave it to > >spends it. Then the next person, and so on. Pretty soon the dime's not > >worth as much because so many people spent it. That's called 'inflation'." > > > >No wonder I'm still poor after that kind of up-bringing. > > > >- Rick Monteverde > >Honolulu, HI the GOVm't OU balancing act involves its (taxation scheme) [keep loading up the system and THEY still Think it will work -ha!-] not OU at all. Say I have a dime, Opps wait, no matter how I got it, THEY TAX me a penny on that dime.. (so actually I really only have 9cents).. I give YOU that DIME (for work render'd whatever) = THEY TAX YOU a penny too. (that's your income not my loss) (so really you only have 9 cents too (ha-ha).. you PASS that DIME on to 8 'other people' (10 total people now, humm WE HAVE ALL HAD A DIME (err 9cents) AND THEY have 10cents in tax.. How can that be if we only Had a Dime to start with ?? EASY .. Mint MORE PENNIES and you will still increase the deficit (sigh... IT NEVER WAS O/U....) but ask them if THEY care, (as long as THEY are getting their penny --NO,No,no--) Just pass on that debt to our future generations [after all Who cares, you got your dime... They got their penny].. just make more 'unbacked by any monetary (gold/silver etc.) valued PENNIES. Can you see how that DIME might end up in 100,000 different peoples pockets?? And its Still a dime, although not worth a flip anymore. Mom, kept me poor too.... actually it (when taken to source) is our common 'uncle sam'... we should send him a thankyou note -eh? ------- ----------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2 freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 12:37:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA13688; Sat, 3 May 1997 12:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705031923.MAA25451 mail.pacifier.com> X-Sender: jimbell mail.pacifier.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 12:19:30 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: jimbell pacifier.com (Jim Bell) Subject: Re: Looking for meter Resent-Message-ID: <"BwTUR2.0.oL3.83vQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:41 5/02/97 -0800, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: >I am trying to locate a reasonably priced meter to measure very low >currents (in nA) and voltages (uV). The best I've located so far is The >TENMA AC Millivolt Meter ($175 from MCM Electronics, cat #72-450). It has >the disadvantage of being AC voltage only and analog, but goes down to a >0-300 uV range, and has amplified output for an oscilloscope. It's easy to read current in nanoamps with a typical, 3.5-digit handheld DVM. Most have voltage ranges with an input impedance of 10 megohms, meaning that a read voltage of 1 volt corresponds to 100 nanoamps. With the typical resolution on this range of 1 millivolt, that's a resolution of 0.10 nanoamps. Putting that 10 megohm input inpedance in parallel with a 1.11 Mohm resistor drops the total resistance to 1 megohm, and thus a read voltage of 1 volt is 1000 nanoamps. Jim Bell jimbell pacifier.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 12:40:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA14623; Sat, 3 May 1997 12:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:32:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 09:30:56 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"uIMtX2.0.La3.8BvQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - >> For all practical purposes, symmetrical magnetic >> fields cannot be rotated about their polar axes. > Garbage! Evidence? I don't think there is any practical way to test if a field described above is rotating. If there is one, then I'm wrong. Your statement that it doesn't matter I think is closer to the truth, due to fundamental geometry. > Rotation consists of translations of non=axial points. But there really are no points to rotate. If we just assign points out around it at our whim, then fine - but we've just made up a fiction. What's the smallest physical magnetic thing? A dipole. That's di-pole. Two poles. Not 2.5, or 4 or 6. We speak of these poles with respect to the object's own reference frame. View a dipole with the N up and the S down. How can you tell if it's rotating? Is there a second axis besides the NS that we've been too coy to mention? A subtle E-W axis upon which we can hang 'points' to label the various distinctive meridians? No matter whether we view the dipole from the east or west, it looks *exactly* the same. There seems to be a face there, but it's the same face all around. Rotation is *undefined* for that face, because there are no properties there which can change with direction. If there might be some hidden or as-yet unknown property there that would appear different when viewed from different directions, then perhaps now we have to say we don't really know if it can rotate or not. But since no instrument or means we know of can detect fundamental rotation about the polar axis, then for practical purposes rotation remains undefined, meaningless, and tends to default to "none" in the real world. Now about some other properties of the field. We have a bar magnet rotating rapidly on its polar axis. Out a ways in the field, perhaps you can detect the little bumps in the field from all those atoms making the net field structure. Those bumps are going around with the field pretty fast. Move out far enough, and we find them going FTL. Now when someone says "FTL" on the net, 10 messages appear explaining phase velocity vs. group velocity. Obviously we have phase velocity here. So it must be that way all throughout the field. It's nothing more than phase information. Sure that _information_ rotates and its cyclic or rotating path of effect has real meaning to matter and charge found within it. But what rotates? That question sounds just like "what waves?" to me. A magnetic field is the twist in space left over from rotating charge. In a sense, it already *is* rotation. >> And there *are no* field lines. Faraday just made that one up. > Again - proof? Consult any text describing Faraday's discoveries about magnetism. It's well known history. He used the notion of plowed furrows in a farmer's field to help visualize the differences in flux density in space surrounding a magnet. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 12:48:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA16412; Sat, 3 May 1997 12:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705031944.MAA17109 axionet.com> From: "J Manning" To: Subject: Re: John Hutchison Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:43:55 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OkRte.0.L04.cNvQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Hutchison, after 10 years of friendship, is like a brother to me and I believe I would know it if the a/g experiments were faked. They weren't. Consulting engineer George Hathaway in Toronto could give more details if he is willing to be contacted. John doesn't want to give out his phone number & he doesn't have e-mail. I was unfortunately living in other cities when the various labs were running, but I interviewed Hathaway/Hutchison's former business partner Alexis Pezarro before his death a few years ago and I'm convinced that they really witnessed anomalous phenomena. However, regarding the Canadian government's role in shutting down the laboratory, I don't see it in such black-and-white terms. Can't agree on everything! Jeane Manning Vancouver BC ---------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 12:59:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA17203; Sat, 3 May 1997 12:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336B971C.D33 skylink.net> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 12:50:52 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? References: <199705031714.MAA02304 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kOg5R.0.jC4.hTvQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > Let's take this argument one small step at a time. I think that a perfect > toroidal sheet of current (a situation that is closely approached by a tight > winding on a toroidal core) has zero H outside the core of the toroid. Not a > small H...but zero H. Yes its zero. There is zilch H Field outside the toroid. None the less a current is induced. An insightful explanation of how this occurs can be found in Jefimenko's book, "Electromagnetic Induction, Causality, and Gravitation." He describes the electric field and magnetic field on the basis of sources. There are two sources of magnetic field -- charges in motion (what one might view as flux cutting), and charges undergoing acceleration (what one might view as flux changing or transformer action). He also identifies three types of E field, from: static charge, charge in motion, and charges undergoing acceleration. According to Jefimenko, whenever a charge is accelerated (or a current is changing) an electric field is generated along with a magnetic field. These fields exhibit the mathematical relationship, curlE = -dB/dt, and they always exist concurrently -- but contrary to what you may find in some textbooks, it is not a causal relationship. Jefimenko calls the E field developed by a changing current, the electrokinetic field. He also shows that the magnetic vector potential has physical meaning, and is always equal to the time integral of the electrokinetic field, which incidentially is always also equal to the total magnetic flux enclosed. Anyhow, if you view things in Jefimenko's way, the current induced in the wire loop, whether the loop is inside or outside of the toroid, results from the electrokinetic E field caused by the alternating current flowing in the toroid. The alternating current in the toroid also generates a concurrent time changing B field. ALL inside the coil. Jefimenko was not the first to do this analysis of magnetic induction vis a vis flux cutting. Cohn did it in a thesis at IIT 1947, and Moon and Spencer did it in the 1950s. Faraday had a similar approach. Important differences in the three types of E field have been pointed out by William Hooper, and many others. But of all, I think Jefimenko has done it most clearly. There are three types of electric field, each with notably different porperties, and two types of magnetic field. It is curious that physics texts generally do not provide a complete view of electromagnetics based on sources. Jefimenko's analysis results from mathematics at the level of vector algebra and integral calculus -- not much tougher than Mawell's equations. Sometimes it appears that the powers that publish physics textbooks prefer to keep EM theory as muddled as possible. Exposure of the narrowness of insight provided by Maxwell's equations is possibly tolerable. The real rub might be the longitudinal nature of the fields caused by accelerating charges, and resulting inconsistencies in the Lorentz gauge (aka Special Relativity). Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 13:34:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA06346; Sat, 3 May 1997 13:30:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 13:30:13 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:34:55 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Looking for meter Resent-Message-ID: <"yhvGN1.0.0Z1.K1wQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:19 PM 5/3/97, Jim Bell wrote: >At 12:41 5/02/97 -0800, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: >>I am trying to locate a reasonably priced meter to measure very low >>currents (in nA) and voltages (uV). The best I've located so far is The >>TENMA AC Millivolt Meter ($175 from MCM Electronics, cat #72-450). It has >>the disadvantage of being AC voltage only and analog, but goes down to a >>0-300 uV range, and has amplified output for an oscilloscope. > >It's easy to read current in nanoamps with a typical, 3.5-digit handheld >DVM. Most have voltage ranges with an input impedance of 10 megohms, >meaning that a read voltage of 1 volt corresponds to 100 nanoamps. With the >typical resolution on this range of 1 millivolt, that's a resolution of 0.10 >nanoamps. > >Putting that 10 megohm input inpedance in parallel with a 1.11 Mohm resistor >drops the total resistance to 1 megohm, and thus a read voltage of 1 volt is >1000 nanoamps. > > >Jim Bell >jimbell pacifier.com Wow - good point. In thinking ammeter I was thinking low series impedence. But for my application high impedence 1 M or even 10 M is fine. Thanks! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 13:34:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA06214; Sat, 3 May 1997 13:29:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 13:29:34 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:34:43 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? Resent-Message-ID: <"97M6Y.0.0X1.j0wQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:14 PM 5/3/97, Scott Little wrote: >At 04:00 PM 5/3/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: > >>All the "B" is not in the core. Wires generate "H". Half of the "H" is >>in the core, half is in space. > >Let's take this argument one small step at a time. I think that a perfect >toroidal sheet of current (a situation that is closely approached by a tight >winding on a toroidal core) has zero H outside the core of the toroid. Not a >small H...but zero H. > >If your QuickField FEA models showed some H outside a toroid, I believe that >it had to be due only to numerical errors caused by mesh coarseness or other >FEA problems. > >Could we have a few votes on this point? Mike Schaeffer, Hal, Horace, etc? > >Scott Little (1) OK, but you are talking an imaginary non-existent world. In the real world flux is quantized and tied to particles. Wires have sizes and separations. (2) Because field lines cancel (in static effect), does not mean thay are not there in some form of physical reality. (3) When you have wire and not "sheets", total cancellation only is approximated even for an infinitely long solenoid. A torus is even less perfect, true? (4) In the locality of actual windings this is not true. As you approach the windings within the winding seperation distance (d) you see the H field clearly. I would think it safe to say that theoreticaly you could see less than 1 percent of the H field intensity at the wire surface at a distance of 10 d from the torus surface - on the outside, away from the hole. However, in a real world measurement situation, you will find all kinds of 60 cycle junk around a torroidal transformer. Not totally sure why - maybe nonsymmetrical winding? (5) The H field lines totally inside the torus windings (inside the doughnut, not the hole) got there through a process of expanding across the center (hole) of the torus. There will always be some field lines that don't make it fully across the center of the torus. The AC coupling of windings on one side of the torus is not perfect with windings on the other side of the torus. Field lines lie in the hole of the torus, but in a DC situation tend to cancel. In an AC situation, the motion of the field lines in the center of the torus does not cause their effect to cancel. A left to right field line cutting a vertical conductor has the same effect as a right to left field line cutting from the opposite direction. A proof of this is to look at how the field lines act when you remove half the torus. Just because field lines cancel does not mean they are not there. That is a separate issue. That's my amateur, armchair, arm waving, answer. Hard way to say yes, huh? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 13:34:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA06282; Sat, 3 May 1997 13:29:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 13:29:48 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:34:50 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"AxqQp2.0.4Y1.x0wQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:30 AM 5/3/97, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > > >> For all practical purposes, symmetrical magnetic > >> fields cannot be rotated about their polar axes. > > > Garbage! Evidence? > >I don't think there is any practical way to test if a field described above >is rotating. If there is one, then I'm wrong. Your statement that it >doesn't matter I think is closer to the truth, due to fundamental geometry. Well a really sensitive FET probe might work, due to the gate's effect being due to potential: Rotating Flux . . S---------------------- . | =====G-+ FET probe . | . D----------------------- S - source D - drain G - gate == - active area of probe .. - flux line rotating out of page Stick the probe into field and look for change in source to drain current. If it doesnt work with magnet rotating in one direction try the other to get the voltage right. Even better - oscillate the magnet about the axis. > > > Rotation consists of translations of non=axial points. > >But there really are no points to rotate. If we just assign points out >around it at our whim, then fine - but we've just made up a fiction. No, the field is built up of quanta attached to real particles, primarily real electrons in the magnet. The field is not some imaginary mathematical thing. You are have been brainwashed by Maxwellian Police! (Hey I'm not sure I believe all this junk I'm spouting off either, but it's a way for me to get a free education. Besides, if we didn't disagree there would be nothing to say) > >What's the smallest physical magnetic thing? A dipole. That's di-pole. Two >poles. A dipole is an imaginary construct. Lines of flux are continuous loops. They run through a particle, they *are* the particle. Magnets have internal lines of flux. The N and S poles are connected on two sides. Except for monopoles, poles are also imaginary things. >Not 2.5, or 4 or 6. We speak of these poles with respect to the >object's own reference frame. View a dipole with the N up and the S down. >How can you tell if it's rotating? Is there a second axis besides the NS >that we've been too coy to mention? A subtle E-W axis upon which we can >hang 'points' to label the various distinctive meridians? There is an electrostatic potential that can be detected. Besides, you are now bringing us back to one of the few particles on the axis of a magnet's rotation, which I made an exception of. >No matter whether >we view the dipole from the east or west, it looks *exactly* the same. >There seems to be a face there, but it's the same face all around. Rotation >is *undefined* for that face, because there are no properties there which >can change with direction. If there might be some hidden or as-yet unknown >property there that would appear different when viewed from different >directions, then perhaps now we have to say we don't really know if it can >rotate or not. But since no instrument or means we know of can detect >fundamental rotation about the polar axis, then for practical purposes >rotation remains undefined, meaningless, and tends to default to "none" in >the real world. Note that rotation of a magnetic field creates a potential gradient. If anything, it seems to me magnetic quanta may be more fundamental than charge. > >Now about some other properties of the field. We have a bar magnet rotating >rapidly on its polar axis. Out a ways in the field, perhaps you can detect >the little bumps in the field from all those atoms making the net field >structure. Those bumps are going around with the field pretty fast. Move >out far enough, and we find them going FTL. Now when someone says "FTL" on >the net, 10 messages appear explaining phase velocity vs. group velocity. >Obviously we have phase velocity here. So it must be that way all >throughout the field. It's nothing more than phase information. Sure that >_information_ rotates and its cyclic or rotating path of effect has real >meaning to matter and charge found within it. But what rotates? That >question sounds just like "what waves?" to me. Answer: your arms, my arms. >A magnetic field is the >twist in space left over from rotating charge. In a sense, it already *is* >rotation. > > >> And there *are no* field lines. Faraday just made that one up. > > > Again - proof? > >Consult any text describing Faraday's discoveries about magnetism. It's >well known history. He used the notion of plowed furrows in a farmer's >field to help visualize the differences in flux density in space >surrounding a magnet. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI No no no, not proof he made it up - proof they don't exist! Every concept in physics was made up. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 13:40:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA21208; Sat, 3 May 1997 13:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 13:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:34:47 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar Question Resent-Message-ID: <"EwWen1.0.CB5.G1wQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:22 PM 5/3/97, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Gee, Greg and Horace, I hope you guys are'nt getting mad! For myself, >the homopolar machine is a tricky sucker to understand. [snip] > >How about the 2nd? > >Frank Stenger Hey, Frank, I was absolutely mad before finding vortex! It makes for ever so much nicer a tea party! Right Frederick? PS - If I get emphatic or terse or bombastic, it's not because I'm mad - it's because I don't have time to figure out how to say things nice, or frustrated at a lack of ability to communicate. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 13:58:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA23127; Sat, 3 May 1997 13:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 13:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:54:16 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: 2nd Tohoku A-G Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"bPq1M3.0.Hf5.XJwQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: About the Tohoku experiments, sorry, I haven't read the second Tohoku antigravity report, but based on Robert Stirniman's posted information I have the following comments and experimental suggestions: Hopefully the capsule dropped is spherical, otherwise rotation due to precession, will cause changes in the beam cut times. Also, lateral movement induced by the drop mechanism could cause a systematic difference in the position sensing. The direction of spin could affect lateral movement - if the drop mechanism is electromagnetic, it could interact with both the spin and lateral movement of the object being dropped. Interpretation of such effects is not possible without a lot more information about both the drop mechanism and the falling object. However, after about .5 seconds the object would fall at about 480 cm/s. At that speed, in 10 micro-seconds it moves only 4.8x10^-3 cm. The object must fall with an orientation preservation or symmetry producing near micron accuracy. Also, the beam must produce a plane with near micron accuracy throuhout the detection area. Hard to believe this could be achieved. Hopefully the drops were carried out in a very good vacuum. If not, a very small rotation could cause large changes in aerodynamics, depending on even microscopic surface characteristics of the dropped object. Also, air resistence would be a very significant factor in variability, etc. Hopefully the vacuum container was a very good insulator, otherwise induced voltages on the container (if the dropped object has any magnetic field whatsoever) would have differing braking effects depending on precession/rotation rate, etc.. The Coriolis effect will induce a lateral apparent motion to the object (to the east) as it falls because at the drop point it is orbiting at a faster velocity than the earth surface below it. Depending on the quality of the vacuum, there will be a lateral force exerted by the air which could affect orientation and precession. The lateral translation due to Coriolis effect should be consistent across experiments, provided it is in a vacuum. There is a an apparent rotational effect due to Coreolis as well. The rotation of the earth while the object drops is (0.5x360/(24x60x60) = 0.0042 degrees. An object intialy spinning tangentially to the earth surface will quickly be spinning on a tilt. The Coriolis motion increases this angle slightly, by moving the object further east. Tidal effects, due to the angle of spin being off horizontal, then initiate precessional forces that are consistent from fall to fall, and might vary consistenly, depending on the object. Such an effect could produce micron differences in the measurements because of systematic changes in orientation, depending on the unifority of the dropped object. Ten microseconds is a very long time electronically speaking, and half a econd is much longer. I think the experiment could be done over a much smaller distance. Instead of cutting light beams, maybe doppler shift could be used to measure velocity. That method would not be so susceptable to changes in the object orientation. An approach that might be useful is shooting rotating balls upward into a measuring area. In this way longer periods can be observed over shorter distances, including the moments at the apex where Coriolis and other effects are at an absolute minimum because the object "hovers". Observation at the apex would then be without any nearby magnetic effects of the drop mechanism, etc. The object could be a small bead. A funnel like collector in the base of the vacuum area would funnel the bead into a non conducting spinning barrel. The barrel would be capable of sudden vertical motion - in order to shoot the bead into a verticle trajectory. The bead motion would be such as not to touch the sides of the barrel and thus cause a torque and precession. In this technique, by having a long extension before the cavity of the barrel, the barrel actuator and motor could be located a good distance from the bead as well, to limit electromagnetic effects. Instead of a bead, the object might be a torus, and the barrel would then instead be a rotating conical point that is inserted (maybe with some difficulty in a vacuum?) into the torus. Another possibility for measuring motion might be using a strobe and a microscope with lenticular screen to photograph the bead near the apex to determine accelerations while the bead is moving both upward and moving downward. In this manner more than three points could be measured. With appropriate markings on the bead some measure or evidence of spin and orientation might be made as well. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 14:57:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA01393; Sat, 3 May 1997 14:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 14:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705032152.OAA10129 mail.pacifier.com> X-Sender: jimbell mail.pacifier.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 14:48:27 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: jimbell pacifier.com (Jim Bell) Subject: Re: Looking for meter Resent-Message-ID: <"JmGSt.0.gL.xExQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:34 5/03/97 -0800, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: >At 12:19 PM 5/3/97, Jim Bell wrote: >>It's easy to read current in nanoamps with a typical, 3.5-digit handheld >>DVM. Most have voltage ranges with an input impedance of 10 megohms, >>meaning that a read voltage of 1 volt corresponds to 100 nanoamps. With the >>typical resolution on this range of 1 millivolt, that's a resolution of 0.10 >>nanoamps. >>Putting that 10 megohm input inpedance in parallel with a 1.11 Mohm resistor >>drops the total resistance to 1 megohm, and thus a read voltage of 1 volt is >>1000 nanoamps. >Wow - good point. In thinking ammeter I was thinking low series impedence. >But for my application high impedence 1 M or even 10 M is fine. Thanks! If you're trying to measure really low voltages, you should become familiar with the series of chopper-stabilized op-amps made by companies like Linear Technology, Maxim, and (probably) National Semiconductor, and probably a few others as well. These units have typical input currents of 10 picoamps or less, and input-offset voltages of typically 1 microvolt. (Sufficiently small that thermoelectric/thermocouple effects become a REALLY significant source of error!). They can be easily hooked up to multiply tiny voltages by large multiples, say factors of 100, 1000, 10000 or even more, so that the output voltage can be measured with an ordinary 3.5 digit meter. They can also implement an essentially-zero series-impedance current meter. Ground the positive input to the op-amp, put a large (say, 1 megohm?) resistor between the output and the negative input. This circuit (kept floating by battery power) receives current between ground and the negative input. Due to the characteristics of an op amp, the output voltage changes in order to keep the negative input at "exactly" 0 volts. Measure the output voltage with respect to the positive input, and divide by the feedback resistor value to calculate the exact current applied. In this circuit, the lower limit of current which can be measured is approximately the input current of the op amps involved, which is usually less than 10 picoamps. For any given feedback resistor, the upper limit of current measured is fixed by the saturation of the amplifier at the negative or positive supply rail. The resistor can be reduced in value, but at some point the output-current limit of the amplifier is reached. Even this "limit" could be extended by output-current amplification using transistors or FETs. Jim Bell jimbell pacifier.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 16:30:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA11233; Sat, 3 May 1997 16:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 16:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 15:33:47 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: FET probe idea wrong Resent-Message-ID: <"8JDHB2.0.Rl2.0fyQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, it appears I was wrong about the FET probe idea - just tried it. I wrote that I though a sensitive FET probe might work to measure a rotating magneic field, due to the gate's effect being due to potential: Rotating Flux . . S---------------------- . | =====G-+ FET probe . | . D----------------------- S - source D - drain G - gate == - active area of probe .. - flux line rotating out of page Tried it using a dual gate MOSFET, NTE455, with the two gates tied together to make a probe tip. Very senisitive probe. Picked up flourescent bulb at about 2 feet. Very good at sensing ambient noise. Brought a magnet near it an it went totally dead. Wham, flatlined. Zero conductivity. Took the magnet away and it worked. Brought magnet near it and moved toward flourescent bulb it eventually picked up the signal, but the proximity of the magnet set a threshold for the distance it would start sensing. A bit of fooling around and the MOSFET could make a gauss meter. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 16:44:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA12158; Sat, 3 May 1997 16:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 16:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:35:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705032335.SAA24615 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? Resent-Message-ID: <"ITLW_.0.qz2.0myQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: First step taken. Thanks to the S's, Frank and Robert, for supporting the zero-H-outside-a-toroid hypothesis. Gnorts to Horace who chose to dwell on the fact that a little H does leak out of any real toroidal coil. The leaked-out H is NOT important...it can be ignored. 2 points for freshman physics, Greg. The H leaking out of a toroid does not contribute significantly to the induction of an emf in the loop of wire that passes thru the hole in the toroid. Now we have to take a little detour because Horace, who is clearly avoiding working on his bathroom, said: >(5) The H field lines totally inside the torus windings (inside the >doughnut, not the hole) got there through a process of expanding across the >center (hole) of the torus. I've never heard this proposed before. Somehow it doesn't feel right to me. I'd rather believe that the lines of flux just "spring into existence" inside the core. Surely they don't start on one side as tiny loops and then expand across the center hole until they lie totally within the core..!!!! Mike, Hal, Frank, Robert, etc? Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 17:09:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA15416; Sat, 3 May 1997 17:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336BD253.74A2 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 09:33:31 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6HcPX2.0.om3.OAzQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Lynn Kurtz wrote: > > On Fri, 02 May 1997 21:12:14 +0930 Greg Watson > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Rick, > > > > Thanks for the genuine comments. > > > > Looks like I have been too close to this thing. Maybe I can't see the > > woods for the trees. > > > > I have explained the results I am getting with my linear model. I ask > > for feedback as to where and / or how I may be making a mistake. I ask > > for feedback as to how I can improve my test setup. But the only > > feedback I get is "CLOSE THE LOOP". > > > > I can show a real energy gain and I ask for comment on where the energy > > may be coming from. What do I get, "CLOSE THE LOOP". > > > > I express concern for the cost of using this energy and ask for > > comment. "CLOSE THE LOOP" comes back. > > > > When I do close the loop, with all respect, don't need the unit to be > > tested to tell me its working. Any pair of Mark 1 human eyes will do > > the job very well. > > > > I asked for feedback to involve ALL of you in this. I expected more > > than just a group of "CLOSE THE LOOP" lurkers. Thats why I asked for > > expressions of interest. I am trying to sort the interest. > > > > Maybe I am too close and have got this reply all wrong. I don't want to > > offend anyone. If I do, I apologize in advance. You probably don't > > realize how much I value the feedback from this group (both positive and > > negative). But I get so little. > > > > I set up a special interest group to discuss and duplicate elements of > > the device my patent attorney will allow me to disclose without choping > > my keyboard cable. But even with them I can only go so far, although > > some are getting warm. > > > > > > Well Greg, I don't see how you can expect any more from this group > than you are getting. Don't confuse interest with belief. I am very > interested in what you are doing but also confess to being very > skeptical that it, whatever it is, is over unity or that you will be > able to successfully close the loop and make, for example, a self- > running generator. That would be a feat fantantastic beyond > description, and you would highly deserve any fame, riches, or any > other good fortune coming your way because of it. > > However, as a reader of this list, all I know about your gadget is > that is apparently uses magnets and kinetics in some way and provides > torque output. How can you expect intelligent and useful feedback > from us about the possible "gotchas" in your test setup, or ways to > improve it, or the "costs" of using this type energy when we don't > even know what the hell your experiment is??? Have I missed your > postings of the details of your experiment? > > The only other thing I know about your experiment is that it is your > impression that it is over unity, but your efforts to date to "close > the loop" have not been successful. Not knowing the details of your > invention, nevertheless I suspect that this lack of success would be > predicted by standard conservation of energy laws. > > Given the circumstances, I can't see how you can expect anything > except "best wishes for your success" and "I will believe it when I > see it -- close the loop and show me" from readers of this group. > > -- Lynn Hi Lynn, Didn't you get my test setup and results post? Please let me know as I will repost. We all search for new energy sources, thats why we are here. But do we discuss what may be the price we will have to pay to use them or where the energy may be coming from? Its nice to sit and wait. But its also good to talk. It may lead to new doors. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 17:26:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA32595; Sat, 3 May 1997 17:25:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:25:07 -0700 Message-ID: <336BD728.1466 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 09:54:08 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? References: <199705031714.MAA02304 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yr_Co3.0.Dz7.YTzQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 04:00 PM 5/3/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: > > >All the "B" is not in the core. Wires generate "H". Half of the "H" is > >in the core, half is in space. > > Let's take this argument one small step at a time. I think that a perfect > toroidal sheet of current (a situation that is closely approached by a tight > winding on a toroidal core) has zero H outside the core of the toroid. Not a > small H...but zero H. Scott, come into the real world. The electron flow in wires are the source of the magnetic fields that surround wires. In free space they are circular as the reluctance of the space around them is uniform. If we now introduce a ferrite material along side of the wire, things change. Part of the wire's H field "flows" through the ferrite and part flows through space completing the rotation around the wire (or really its atoms). The part of the H that flows in the ferrite causes a large B field to be generated in the core. In a toroid, most, if not all of the B field stays inside. The second action which happens to the H field which flows in the core is that very little H is "dropped". The total flux path surrounding the wire must still obey magnetic circuit rules. IE B is constant around the circuit (like current) but H is dropped as required to keep B constant (like voltage). As the core offers a much better flux path than the air, only a little H is required to generate the same B field as exists externally. As a result, the H field component in the air actually gets bigger and turn to turn flux linking increases. > If your QuickField FEA models showed some H outside a toroid, I believe that > it had to be due only to numerical errors caused by mesh coarseness or other > FEA problems. Incorrect. > Could we have a few votes on this point? Mike Schaeffer, Hal, Horace, etc? Hi Scott, You still have not answered the question of the direction of current flow in the shorted turn of your toroid example. I seem to remember you stated it was related to the direction of flux flow in the toroid. If this were so, then the primary and secondary currents would flow in the same direction. If it is in the opposite direction (which is now tfxs work) then it is related to the external H field (which flows reverse to the H field inducing the B field in the core). -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 17:27:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA32665; Sat, 3 May 1997 17:26:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:26:06 -0700 Message-ID: <336BD76F.3552 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 09:55:19 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Homopolar Question References: <336B745B.5357 interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dgLVI2.0.J-7.TUzQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > Gee, Greg and Horace, I hope you guys are'nt getting mad! For myself, > the homopolar machine is a tricky sucker to understand. > OK, Greg, by my CURRENT understanding, on your three homopolar machines, > if they all use brushes on the disks, then I think the 1st and 3rd will > work, but the second will not. > I think the second is a lot like the first would be if the load circuit > rotated with the disk. > The third works because, if you have a conductive magnet (like steel), > you don't even need a separate disk - the whole magnet is radially > polarized and will work thru brushes to a stationary load. > > I know the first works - I tried it. > My reference says the 3rd works. > > How about the 2nd? > > Frank Stenger Hi Frank, My money says the second will not work. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 17:53:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA01741; Sat, 3 May 1997 17:51:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:51:24 -0700 Message-ID: <336BDDB0.1A09 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 20:52:00 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Looking for meter References: <199705032152.OAA10129 mail.pacifier.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GGROu3.0.3R.CszQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Bell wrote: > (snip) > In this circuit, the lower limit of current which can be measured is > approximately the input current of the op amps involved, which is usually > less than 10 picoamps. Holy Moly, Horace! We just found another NATIONAL TREASURE on this list - Jim Bell! Warm up the printers! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 17:59:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA19391; Sat, 3 May 1997 17:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336BDA6A.38AC microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 10:08:02 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? References: <199705031714.MAA02304 natasha.eden.com> <336B8585.659C@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jQFqQ2.0.vk4.PxzQp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > Scott Little wrote: > > > Not a > > small H...but zero H. > > > > For what it's worth, I agree, Scott. > > As a note to your earlier toroidal transformer example - it works > with a vacuum inside the toroid - no need for magnetic matter here! > > (I have to leave now - I think Horace is about to make me crazy again!) > > Frank S. Hi Frank, So if the external H is zero, how does the flux circulate around its flux source (the moving electrons in the wire)? Are you saying that you believe in detached flux flow. IE the flux circulates but never completes a path around the atoms of the copper wire? Now this would be strange! I am sure the guys at QField would love to know that they and the equations they model got it wrong. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 18:03:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA02355; Sat, 3 May 1997 18:00:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:00:33 -0700 Message-ID: <336BDF8E.4B9C microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 10:29:58 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? References: <199705032335.SAA24615 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xMNPG2.0.fa.m-zQp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > First step taken. > > Thanks to the S's, Frank and Robert, for supporting the > zero-H-outside-a-toroid hypothesis. > > Gnorts to Horace who chose to dwell on the fact that a little H does leak > out of any real toroidal coil. The leaked-out H is NOT important...it can > be ignored. > > 2 points for freshman physics, Greg. The H leaking out of a toroid does not > contribute significantly to the induction of an emf in the loop of wire that > passes thru the hole in the toroid. > > Now we have to take a little detour because Horace, who is clearly avoiding > working on his bathroom, said: > > >(5) The H field lines totally inside the torus windings (inside the > >doughnut, not the hole) got there through a process of expanding across the > >center (hole) of the torus. > > I've never heard this proposed before. Somehow it doesn't feel right to me. > I'd rather believe that the lines of flux just "spring into existence" > inside the core. Surely they don't start on one side as tiny loops and then > expand across the center hole until they lie totally within the core..!!!! > > Mike, Hal, Frank, Robert, etc? Hi Scott, In which direction does current flow in the shorted secondary turn? 1) Same as the primary. 2) Opposite to the primary. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 18:10:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA20310; Sat, 3 May 1997 18:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336BE19A.733D interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:08:42 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Homopolar Question References: <336B745B.5357 interlaced.net> <336BD76F.3552@microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5UNJM3.0.Ez4.H6-Qp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > then I think the 1st and 3rd will > > work, but the second will not. > Hi Frank, > > My money says the second will not work. > Good! Then we agree. (How's the rotary rig coming, Greg?) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 18:40:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA06081; Sat, 3 May 1997 18:35:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:35:43 -0700 Message-ID: <336BE7BD.53C9 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 11:04:53 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Homopolar Question References: <336B745B.5357 interlaced.net> <336BD76F.3552@microtronics.com.au> <336BE19A.733D@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"C3nP01.0.xU1.kV-Qp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > > Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > > > then I think the 1st and 3rd will > > > work, but the second will not. > > > Hi Frank, > > > > My money says the second will not work. > > > Good! Then we agree. (How's the rotary rig coming, Greg?) > > Frank Stenger Hi Frank, I am moving to neos as I believe the ceramics I am using at present move about on their B/H curve too much. I don't really want to change magnetic materials in mid stream as I will have to backtrack and reestablish some of the operational parameters. What are you comments on the existing linear test setup? Have you looked at the patent 4,215,330? -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 18:42:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA06657; Sat, 3 May 1997 18:41:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:41:45 -0700 Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 20:41:38 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705040141.UAA01196 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? Resent-Message-ID: <"ygj0U2.0.xd1.Ob-Qp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:29 5/4/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: >In which direction does current flow in the shorted secondary turn? Opposite to the primary, Greg. The current flows in the secondary so as to oppose the change in flux thru it caused by the primary. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 18:52:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA07638; Sat, 3 May 1997 18:51:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:51:00 -0700 Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 20:50:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705040150.UAA01723 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? Resent-Message-ID: <"r9TC11.0.Ct1.3k-Qp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:08 5/4/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: >I am sure the guys at QField would love to know that they and the >equations they model got it wrong. Sigh!... Greg, they don't have it wrong at all. It's simply that, due to mesh coarseness, the FEA results don't perfectly agree with the actual situation. If you ask the guys at QField they'd say, "Sure, everybody knows that!". FEA breaks complex problems down into the sum of lots of little simple problems. FEA accuracy is directly related to how finely the complex problem is broken down. The H predicted by QField outside the core of a perfect toroid is simply a numerical analysis ERROR! If you don't believe me and Frank S and Robert S, why don't you ask the guys at QField about this particular situation? Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 19:06:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA09684; Sat, 3 May 1997 19:04:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 19:04:41 -0700 Message-ID: <336BEEDF.6DE9 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 22:05:19 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FET probe idea wrong References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"b0QnD3.0.EN2.uw-Qp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > Well, it appears I was wrong about the FET probe idea - just tried it. > > I wrote that I though a sensitive FET probe might work to measure a > rotating magneic field, due to the gate's effect being due to potential: > I'm with you on this one, Horace. My good old EM book by Richard Becker says a rotating magnet is polarized relative to the "rest" system just like a rotating ELECTRICALLY polarized dielectric can generate a magnetic field. If you look at the north end of a CCW rotating cylindrical magnet, the magnet is electrically polarized radially outward, rim +, axis -, I think. At any rate, if the magnet conducts electricity, or if it is plated with a conductor, rim and axis brushes can draw current by the homopolar principle. Since the electric field is radial, it must loop out of the rim around to the axis region. The trouble is, I don't think the rotating magnet can induce an emf in a closed circuit at rest. This is why Greg's 2nd homopolar configuration won't work. If it did, the stationary disk would not need brushes and the "high current guys" would kill to get their hands on it! The most you can do is try to detect the electric field - but the easy way to do this is to probe the rim and the axis with sliding contacts. There is a tiny electrostatic field around the magnet you could try to detect - but I guess this would not convince anyone that the field rotates. A "E" pickup capacitor on one end of a coax line with the FET at a remote spot might work. I'm out of ideas -- got to go. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 19:16:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA26441; Sat, 3 May 1997 19:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 19:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336BEED1.465C skylink.net> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 19:05:05 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? References: <199705032335.SAA24615 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"x_itO.0.3T6.cy-Qp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > The H field lines totally inside the torus windings (inside the > >doughnut, not the hole) got there through a process of expanding across the > >center (hole) of the torus. > I've never heard this proposed before. Somehow it doesn't feel right to me. > I'd rather believe that the lines of flux just "spring into existence" > inside the core. Surely they don't start on one side as tiny loops and then > expand across the center hole until they lie totally within the core..!!!! This little gem struck me also. There is something disarming about it. Seems like the kind of idea that might come to you, when you are working on avoiding doing your real work. I ought to know. Anyhow, here are some arguments supporting the idea. Magnetic flux exists in closed loops. Large loops, presumably do not spring out of nowhere, and must have started as small loops. Symmetry in the toroid problem would seem to dictate that they started in the center and expanded outward. Still, there seems to be something peculiarly wrong with this. Maybe magnetic flux loops do spring into existence, essentially instantaneously? Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 20:07:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA17302; Sat, 3 May 1997 20:06:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 20:06:23 -0700 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: John Hutchison Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 03:05:39 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <336bf84b.12019783 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rl9Tl.0.GE4.lq_Qp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 2 May 1997 16:36:08 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] >Well maybe, but there was allegedly *no* heat. He's supposed to have a Ok, now I understand. I haven't seen the video. [snip] >happens with soluable materials in solvent anyway, right? Closeups of the >metal looked like it got disrupted along lots of crystal planes, like if >you flexed and broke some brittle large crystal metal like bismuth, and you >had lots of little fissures and some big ones. It looked sort of expanded >or blown out, as if exploded from within. Perhaps a little like the Is this the sort of thing that happens to metal as it absorbs hydrogen? >exploding wires thing, but in all three dimensions at once and much slower; >it's not sudden. That aluminum sample slowly shows these features as it >goes in the video. It breaks up in sort of rectangular chunks and >splinters, and little bits of it melts away. I've melted aluminum many Another rather far fetched possibility. Assume: 1) Mass is due to ZPE interaction. 2) The ZPE is electromagnetic in nature (See Hal). 3) The law of superposition is only valid up to a point. I.e. space itself has a strain "limit", beyond which it no longer behaves in a linear fashion. 4) This non linear behaviour is frequency dependant. 5) When applied EM is sufficiently dense in some local region, (at some specified frequency), the non-linearity of space itself excludes the ZPE at that frequency (and possibly lower frequencies). This exclusion of the ZPE leads to a loss of mass of all subatomic particles, (electrons included), and a consequent expansion of atoms. The resultant swelling, and reorganisation of the crystal structure is what is on the video. [snip] Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 20:22:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA18584; Sat, 3 May 1997 20:21:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 20:21:31 -0700 Message-ID: <336C00E2.22B8 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 23:22:10 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? References: <199705032335.SAA24615 natasha.eden.com> <336BEED1.465C@skylink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QAhX9.0.IY4.x20Rp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Stirniman wrote: > (snip) > Still, there seems to be something peculiarly > wrong with this. Maybe magnetic flux loops do > spring into existence, essentially instantaneously? > OK, Robert, when you make a final decision on that, then explain to me how flux lines "break and then reconnect" like I seem to read so often in the "literature"! What are they doing in between the break and the reconnect? Huh - What? These EM questions are like zombies - what do we need to do to put them to rest, drive a dielectric stake through their heart? Frank Stenger (PS: You're just going to encourage Horace, you know!) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 20:28:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA05236; Sat, 3 May 1997 20:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 20:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336C0020.96C microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 12:48:56 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? References: <199705040150.UAA01723 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZHJYY.0.fH1.z10Rp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 10:08 5/4/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: > > >I am sure the guys at QField would love to know that they and the > >equations they model got it wrong. > > Sigh!... Greg, they don't have it wrong at all. It's simply that, due to > mesh coarseness, the FEA results don't perfectly agree with the actual > situation. If you ask the guys at QField they'd say, "Sure, everybody knows > that!". > > FEA breaks complex problems down into the sum of lots of little simple > problems. FEA accuracy is directly related to how finely the complex problem > is broken down. > > The H predicted by QField outside the core of a perfect toroid is simply a > numerical analysis ERROR! > > If you don't believe me and Frank S and Robert S, why don't you ask the guys > at QField about this particular situation? > > Scott Hi Scott, Lets consider the case of a circular disc of metal with a DC current flowing from the centre to the edges. (Sort of like the top windings of your toroid). We would therefore have flux flowing cw above the disc and cc below in a contiguous circular B field. (Something magnets can't do) Do you agree so far? If we now place a ferrite toroid, the same size as the metal disc, below the disc, and if we follow your example, the contiguous circular B field flowing above the disc will vanish and all the flux will flow below the disc cc inside the toroid. Is that what you are saying? -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 20:40:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA07132; Sat, 3 May 1997 20:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 20:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336C04C2.2EC8 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 23:38:42 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? References: <199705040150.UAA01723 natasha.eden.com> <336C0020.96C@microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_l1hK.0.Il1.wI0Rp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > (snip) > > Lets consider the case of a circular disc of metal with a DC current > flowing from the centre to the edges. Hey wait, Greg! You haven't specified a complete current path yet! In reality, you need a return circuit path from the edges to the center. This disk, in a real circuit is like a shorting disk on a cylindrical coax line. In this coax end case, there is B only inside the coax and its conductors. You can't really talk about the field until you specify the return path - the coax would be one way to do that. Frank Stenger (Hey, get back to work on your rotary rig!) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 21:30:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA11417; Sat, 3 May 1997 21:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <336B7001.E9EAC4E5 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:04:01 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Over Unity Reseach X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"i2FTU3.0.Jo2.Ux0Rp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Over Unity Research Thank you to Lynn Kurtz(02 May 1997) and Rick Monteverde (1 May 1997) their letters "Re: Expressions of Interest" for expressing what I thinking and feeling. I am proposing a systematic method to investigate OU effects based permanent magnets. In order to accomplish this work I am proposing some experiments that we may discuss and specifically define them. In that way, maybe we can find the shortest method to get the hidden energy. My believe is that the transformation about freeing the energy is done always on atomic scales unless macroscopic environment is created (Bose-Einstein Condensates). And not the all properties and the dynamics of the matter is covered by mathematically suitable laws applied to the bulk matter. "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." Albert Einstein (I promise that I not repeat this quote or another one on my next posts) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There are strong arguments for suspecting unusual effects are producing on manipulating fields around or inside of permanent magnets (P.M.). Specially Neodium magnets are often encountered while examining many literature on OU designs. It is very possible that these magnets have special properties more than their exceptional powers. It may be sound nothing new, but nobody until now directly addressed this issue. My Arguments for doing experimental research on permanent magnets: (Some of these issues are recently discusses in this forum e.g. asymmetry of the pulling and the pushing forces.) 1) We don't know exactly how the permanent magnets works. The general principles of permanent magnets are given on textbooks, but theoretical considerations ends here. Everything beyond is experimental based. Quantum mechanics does not help us on understanding natures of permanent magnets and to how to build better magnets and so. 2) How is the frequency response of permanent magnets of changing its magnetic field inside to varying the intensity and the directions of the fields. 3) Is the dynamics of P.M.s can be always described successfully with the permeability (hysteresis) curves? Is the hysteresis curve is time dependent? Is there an energy flow when working on the hysteresis curve ? (changing the flux inside the magnet) Proposed experiments: 1) Measuring the time dependence of the flux changes: Proposed setup: - Target magnet is placed and fixed firmly coaxial inside of a selenoid. - Various intensities, wave forms (including positive and negative pulses) and frequencies are applied to the selenoid by an current sources generator. (May a standard signal generator output is converted to a current amplifier circuit). - Flux passing from the pole of the magnet is monitored by an sense coil or by an linear hall effect sensor. - Input current vs output flux is compared. If the score is set to XY position, any nonlinear effects may be easily observed. 2) Measuring the energy flows: Pre experiment measurements: Ohmic losses of the coil is measured. Dynamic ohmic losses of the empty coil is measured vs. frequency and for voltage ranges. Any non linearity is noticed. Proposed setup: - Target magnet is placed and fixed firmly coaxial inside of a selenoid of same length. - Sinusoidal signal is applied to the selonoid by voltage source. - Effective value and phase of the passing currents are measured. Impedance of the coil is calculated. - Dynamic losses of the system is plotted versus voltage and frequencies. - Range of the voltage and frequencies causing minimal losses are determined. - For an determined frequency a parallel capacitor is inserted to the circuit. And the frequency is adjusted for the resonance.(as the circuit show only ohmic load) -If the circuit shows less losses than expected, bingo! OU effect found. 3) Alternative measurement of energy flow: A permanent magnet core selenoid is used as the inductance of an DC/DC converter. Efficiency of the conversion is measured. Also the energy converted to heat by the electronic circuit and the selonoid is measured separately using calorimeters. Electromagnetic dissipation is ignored. Energy equation: E(input)=E(output)+E(heat_circ)+E(heat_coil) If this equivalence does not hold or the E(heat_coil) is found negative (cooling effect) something unusual is found. Note: I am receiving only vortex-l letter. For discussing issues without delaying should send me a copy of this letter directly to my email Regards, Hamdi Ucar hamdix verisoft.com.tr From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 21:36:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA24767; Sat, 3 May 1997 21:31:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:31:23 -0700 Message-ID: <336C1140.54 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 00:32:00 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? References: <199705031714.MAA02304 natasha.eden.com> <336B8585.659C@interlaced.net> <336BDA6A.38AC@microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IlNYk2.0.v26.Q41Rp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > So if the external H is zero, how does the flux circulate around its > flux source (the moving electrons in the wire)? > The answer, Greg, is VERY CAREFULLY! (Joke!) Scott's infinitely thin current sheet is, of course, a convienient fiction. The real toroidal current would be something like: H or B = zero outside toroidal cavity outer surface of toroidal shell __________________________________ ^No current density outside^ +++++++++(last bit of flux)+++++++ >>>>>>>>>(last conduction electrons) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>>>>>(most inner cond. elec.)>>> __________________________________ ++++++++++(Full inner toroid field) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Inner field across the cavity. The above is supposed to be curved as per toroid with electrons flowing CW around the small toroid dia. in the plane of the page. My point is that the flux does penetrate the conductor at power to low radio frequency - it also makes itsy-witsy loops around the conduction carriers as you require. But, the flux starts strong inside the inner wall and gets weaker and weaker until you reach the outer surface. Outside of that, the flux is gone - or, for a wound coil of wire - very small unless you get very close to a single turn. I have a basic program I wrote to flux-plot around straight solenoids in which I use many circular turns of current - rather than a 3D helix- to simulate the solenoid turns. If I try to interpret the curves too close to a turn when my grid was picked to show the whole coil, I can get into trouble. If I want to look at the field close to a turn, I have to "zoom" in with my solution window and then it does a good job. I don't see a big problem - Scott's OK with his ideal toroidal shell, and You are right about the little details very near the turns in a winding. Still, the emf induced in secondary depends on the rate of change of the flux inside the cavity - any outside flux is negligible. There I go again - sounding like I understand EM - sigh!! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 3 22:42:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA18740; Sat, 3 May 1997 22:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 22:39:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 19:38:12 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"41nls2.0.ka4.R42Rp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > proof they [field lines] don't exist! Sheesh. Ok, somebody made up Freddy Kreuger (Friday the 13th movies), a blade-fingered scar-faced ghost who inhabits dreams. I had a dream where I saw Freddy Kreuger. Prove Freddy Kreuger doesn't exist. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 00:45:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA25736; Sun, 4 May 1997 00:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:40:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <336bf84b.12019783 mail.eisa.net.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:35:34 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: John Hutchison Resent-Message-ID: <"-IWKm1.0.yH6.fr3Rp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin - >Another rather far fetched possibility. Assume: > >1) Mass is due to ZPE interaction. >2) The ZPE is electromagnetic in nature (See Hal). >3) The law of superposition is only valid up to a point. > I.e. space itself has a strain "limit", beyond which it no longer > behaves in a linear fashion. >4) This non linear behaviour is frequency dependant. >5) When applied EM is sufficiently dense in some local region, (at > some specified frequency), the non-linearity of space itself > excludes the ZPE at that frequency (and possibly lower > frequencies). Interesting idea. If it's real, something was sure pushing those crystal planes apart. Didn't look like heat - more like shock. I've never seen metal look like that except stuff that was blown up by explosives. I'm just still a little bit worried about that post about him having to be there and the levitation having something to do with mind. But you never know. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 01:00:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA27130; Sun, 4 May 1997 00:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BC5825.FE9C6D70 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Homopolar question Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:56:08 -0700 Encoding: 33 TEXT, 50 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"04sjK.0.qd6.N64Rp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > > >> For all practical purposes, symmetrical magnetic > >> fields cannot be rotated about their polar axes. > > > Garbage! Evidence? > >I don't think there is any practical way to test if a field described above >is rotating. If there is one, then I'm wrong. Your statement that it >doesn't matter I think is closer to the truth, due to fundamental geometry. I hesitate to jump in to this complex, long (and often amusing) thread - I don't have the firepower or the stamina to defend this from any prolonged onslaught - but it seems to me that if Homopolar Configuration #2 (magnet rotating, disk stationary) doesn't work, but the other configurations do, that's a pretty practical test, and solid proof that the field is not rotating (in a macro, net-result way). BTW, I don't see much difference between Rick's original question and conventional drawing of current from a homopolar device. Rick uses shielding to prevent interaction between the load circuit and the mag field; conventional, using brushes and putting the load circuit elsewhere, just uses distance as the shield. Yes, there is the difference that one load is moving and one is not, but neither one is in a magnetic field (the shielding, remember?) so no practical EM difference. So Rick's setup might work. Anyone have a working homopolar generator that puts out enough juice to test that on? Dan begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(AL'`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0! `(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! M. $````"`?8/`0````0````````",#,!!( !`!<```!213H@2&]M;W!O;&%R M('%U97-T:6]N`#H(`06 `P`.````S0<%``0````X`` ````=`0$@@ ,`#@`` M`,T'!0`$````%0`P````( $!"8 !`"$````S0CE!-#@S,S,Q0S1$,#$Q.35$ M1# P,C!!1D8T1C!P$#D 8`( 8``!0````+`",```````,`)@`````` M"P`I```````#`"X```````,`- ``````0 `Y`!#R#J!@6+P!'@!P``$````7 M````4D4Z($AO;6]P;VQAFAE;-$#($1L9P* ?0J ",_%"=D[%Y\R-34"@ J! M PVQ"V!N9S$P,Q0@CPL*%"(!T ?P:6-K!="9`B%E=@20#; @=P-@S1S .@J% M"H4^2 6P`-"M'2 M'A8>%B $#X@`*Y&!;$'0 ,@ >0+A\?( !'"L 28B,` M92$ $$5V:14-L&X>T#\G;DD@9'T"("@(),$`""@;GD@Z7=A M+%#\=&\F0 >0!4 &D"" )%3_*M 'D 4!)4 ETQS@'A8L`<,E0 M*P*_`, "0 20,+ K-2P!8Q2=6]PM&$O(,`6,`0!X&*L 6((<`D"62+4)J=6UP*_"? M`Z VPS8B`W +4&5X(A"S%S :H" H`' ET&\! -LQ\3A0=0"0&J I)D$7H/IA M)= M-9$JY!' '. VX_ (_-X$$`!QP,R)(<0K >3]0 M]32V=P6P:R(018(V\AU ?RNQ/4%'^00@*N QLB6@)_4S*Q(?(KIS;R M5QG_,\,Q 6$$+ $$8"E /@$^0_]KH5'T2]0C(#003))M!5,%^R,4+A4H:+A) MLQ> !X &T#T$D#\_4%! 4A$@Z45-NU<),*!3+6!811'Q=3R [T)012)+DC"@ M02Q :Y) _\N`$N24K)`#T``0````4` 4``!213H ``````,`#33]-P``2-!8 ` end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 01:01:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA27200; Sun, 4 May 1997 00:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:04:01 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar Question Resent-Message-ID: <"k8QlB2.0.we6.P74Rp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:55 AM 5/4/97, Greg Watson wrote: [snip] > >My money says the second will not work. > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax I'll take that bet! But first I should warn you that you have overlooked something which I have done my best to clarify in various ways. Your classifications: 1) Stationary magnet and rotating metal disk. 2) Stationary metal disk and rotating magnet. 3) Rotating magnet and metal disk. Part of my first analysis: "All angular motion involved with the homopolar generator is relative, and there are only three reference frames for the relative motion: the magnetic field, the armature (rotating wheel or cylinder) and the stator (the rest of the circuit). Any of these may rotate at any speed. However, if the stator rotates at the same speed as the armature, no current will flow becaues the number of interlocks must then exactly equal the disengagements for each rotation. No brushes are involved. The best you can make is an AC generator or synchronous motor in such a circumstance. It does not matter how the magnetic field rotates, as long as there is relative motion between the stator and armature. There really is not even a necessary difference between them!" My final plea: "How many ways can I say it doesn't matter how the magnet rotates? It only matters that the stator and armature have a mutal rotation? As soon as you throw in the reference frame of the observer there are infinitely more than the 3 classes. If you ignore the magnet frame of reference, and the observer frame of reference, since neither is important, then there are only two classes of homopolar motors/generators. Those where the armature and stator have relative motion, and those that don't. All the classes you list, and the infinity of others, provided there is not some design error, produce emf, provided the armature and stator move relative to each other." Hint: What you have overlooked is that in your classification (2) the stator can rotate. You can have a stationary wheel and a stationary (or moving, or fast moving, or slow moving, doesn't matter) magnet along with a rotating stator and get a fine working motor/generator. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 01:07:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA08091; Sun, 4 May 1997 01:03:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 01:03:45 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:08:58 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"YBIGK2.0.L-1.WB4Rp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Horace - > > > proof they [field lines] don't exist! > >Sheesh. Ok, somebody made up Freddy Kreuger (Friday the 13th movies), a >blade-fingered scar-faced ghost who inhabits dreams. > >I had a dream where I saw Freddy Kreuger. > >Prove Freddy Kreuger doesn't exist. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Hey, it's alright with me if you want to believe in Freddy Kruger, provided of course it's alright with you that I can believe that magnetic flux is just as real as the charged particles that they are made from (or make). How's that for a bargain? 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 02:16:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA00624; Sun, 4 May 1997 02:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 02:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 01:18:41 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? Resent-Message-ID: <"maCan.0.g9.JD5Rp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:22 PM 5/3/97, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >> >OK, Robert, when you make a final decision on that, then explain to >me how flux lines "break and then reconnect" like I seem to read so >often in the "literature"! What are they doing in between the break >and the reconnect? Huh - What? These EM questions are like zombies - >what do we need to do to put them to rest, drive a dielectric stake >through their heart? > >Frank Stenger (PS: You're just going to encourage Horace, you know!) There is a possible explanation. Flux lines don't need to break and rejoin. They can simply stretch longitudinally. In fact there may be evidence that there is a longitudinal force that causes flux tubes oriented in the same direction to cause each other to pull each of their rings into adjacency. The more they stretch, the less field strength per flux tube cross section, even though there is a fixed quanta of flux. Flux lines and flux quanta really have separate meanings then, so the terminology starts to break down a bit. This longitudinal force could account for magnetic attraction. Now you've done it Frank, you encouraged me! Don't worry, I'm about done with EM for a while. If nothing else, my wife wil see to it! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 02:17:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA13185; Sun, 4 May 1997 02:13:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 02:13:24 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 01:18:34 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? Resent-Message-ID: <"ilGb7.0.tD3.pC5Rp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:05 PM 5/3/97, Robert Stirniman wrote: [snip] > >Anyhow, here are some arguments supporting the idea. > >Magnetic flux exists in closed loops. >Large loops, presumably do not spring out of >nowhere, and must have started as small loops. >Symmetry in the toroid problem would seem to >dictate that they started in the center and >expanded outward. > >Still, there seems to be something peculiarly >wrong with this. Maybe magnetic flux loops do >spring into existence, essentially instantaneously? > >Regards, >Robert Stirniman OK, since much of the crowd seems bent on making mistakes and speculations faster than anyone can possibly correct them, and there is no one objecting to EM discussion on vortex, I'll briefly join in: I think the H flux lines start in the wires, adjacent to the moving electrons and expand outward. Just because they cancel doesn't mean they don't exist. If you cut a cross section through the major pane of the torus and simulate with very small time increments I suspect you can initially see the expansion process take place across the hole of the torus - similar to the way you might stretch a rubber band across. However, it would be like ripples of water issuing forth from each wire cross section. Throughout its life, every flux line must have a continuous existence and be a closed loop. Flux lines are part of their charge of origin. Everything else I say is then a consequence of this. The flux from the electrons in the ferromagnetic core remain attached to them, but stretch across the central hole as the magnet induction field M builds. I think a the reason no one readily sees that all the B flux can cross the center hole is because the permeability of the core is so much larger than that of the air in the hole. However, flux can cross the hole and yet maintain a low density by crossing fast. It is like lines of soldiers going from the barracks to a mess tent and then back. They leave the high density barracks and then move quickly across the parade grounds in small numbers, but must move slowly and densely (in many lines) within the mess tent. Same for the flux. It expands slowly and densly in the core, but fast and sparsly in the air. It is also important that it is not the true velocity that flux cuts conductors that generates the emf, but the number of lines per unit of time. Further, I think it is important to note that flux is not lines, but tubes - tubes super stretchable but that can exert a lateral pressure. For a mental model I think a very stretchable balloon is about as close as you can get. I conceptuallize an electron as a magnetic flux ballon wrappped around itself and the two ends tied together in the center of the electron. Boson fields freely overlap without force. Fermion fields do not, thus the exclusion principle. Flux tubes thus push on, stretch longitudinally, and compress axially, each other. A magnetic field exerts a true pressure and has both momentum and mass. About circular fluxlines in space about a wire: I think that is an illusion. I think every flux tube remains attached to it's particle. The lines around a wire are a consequence of the cancellation of adjacent edges of flux tubes sticking outward from the wire in a lateral way, similar to bifilar fields. However, that portion of the tangential exposed ends of tubes not cancelling add up to apparent flux circles in space. You're right Scott - I must be babbling like this to avoid chores I don't want to do! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 05:43:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA08906; Sun, 4 May 1997 05:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 05:40:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 08:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970504083928_1521363180 emout06.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com cc: george varisys.com Subject: Electrolytic Mills Cell Replications? Resent-Message-ID: <"YqTnj.0.3B2.2F8Rp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On April 24, George Holz posted that the BlackLight Power web site had "Summary information on many replications by different organizations of the K2CO3 - Ni - H2O cells with high Pout/Pin ratios..." How long age were those replications done? Were any of the replicators identified? (My faithful old Mac, to be replaced later this year, is too obsolete to access the Web via AOL, hence these two questions.) Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 08:25:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA19647; Sun, 4 May 1997 08:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 08:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336CB6EE.914 keelynet.com> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 09:18:54 -0700 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Lost Technology & the Aten Band References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FPI881.0.vo4.NcARp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts! Thought some of you might be interested in a few correlations from ancient pictographs......sure leads to some unique experiments... http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/ship.htm seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 09:26:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA24886; Sun, 4 May 1997 09:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 09:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BC586C.5B408AC0 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Homopolar Question Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 09:19:36 -0700 Encoding: 86 TEXT, 68 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"3p2WC2.0.k46.dUBRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, In your setup, do the terms 'rotor' and 'stator' correspond to the metal disk and the return-path circuit? Sounds to me like we've a classic case of apples and oranges here. Greg's 3 classifications identify only 2 parts: disk and magnet; yours 3 parts: magnet, rotor, and stator. You'll never come to agreement if you have fundamentally different models! What if your 3rd element is magnetically isolated from the rest of the circuit? would that not make your setup the same as Greg's? -Dan ------------------------------------ Horace wrote: >At 9:55 AM 5/4/97, Greg Watson wrote: >[snip] > >>My money says the second will not work. >> >>-- >>Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >>Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > > >I'll take that bet! But first I should warn you that you have overlooked >something which I have done my best to clarify in various ways. Your >classifications: > >1) Stationary magnet and rotating metal disk. > >2) Stationary metal disk and rotating magnet. > >3) Rotating magnet and metal disk. > > >Part of my first analysis: > >"All angular motion involved with the homopolar generator is relative, and >there are only three reference frames for the relative motion: the magnetic >field, the armature (rotating wheel or cylinder) and the stator (the rest >of the circuit). Any of these may rotate at any speed. However, if the >stator rotates at the same speed as the armature, no current will flow >becaues the number of interlocks must then exactly equal the disengagements >for each rotation. No brushes are involved. The best you can make is an >AC generator or synchronous motor in such a circumstance. It does not >matter how the magnetic field rotates, as long as there is relative motion >between the stator and armature. There really is not even a necessary >difference between them!" > >My final plea: > >"How many ways can I say it doesn't matter how the magnet rotates? It only >matters that the stator and armature have a mutal rotation? As soon as you >throw in the reference frame of the observer there are infinitely more than >the 3 classes. If you ignore the magnet frame of reference, and the >observer frame of reference, since neither is important, then there are >only two classes of homopolar motors/generators. Those where the armature >and stator have relative motion, and those that don't. All the classes you >list, and the infinity of others, provided there is not some design error, >produce emf, provided the armature and stator move relative to each other." > >Hint: > >What you have overlooked is that in your classification (2) the stator can >rotate. You can have a stationary wheel and a stationary (or moving, or >fast moving, or slow moving, doesn't matter) magnet along with a rotating >stator and get a fine working motor/generator. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^( @0`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! M. $````"`?8/`0````0````````",#,!!( !`!<```!213H@2&]M;W!O;&%R M(%%U97-T:6]N`!H(`06 `P`.````S0<%``0`"0`3`"0````=`0$ @ ,`#@`` M`,T'!0`$``D`! `6``````$!"8 !`"$````Q1$$Y.$5$-SDV0S1$,#$Q.35$ M13 P,C!!1D8T1C-0* "H$-L0M ;F (&QI:Z$@L'=E)W8@L&$B M<',+8 00:6,B<"BP(+!O^F8AH' +4 >1(;(>,1Q 1P>1%I 90"X 1QE 9VDA M\" S*(5F*. B(&F[`B $(&D-L (P!I!Y*5 <;FPM(!( "K%T1(S$N MP G1!X ","R *7"K'Z$JL&$H068G$6$S MG%<1P#.F!< S_0L (!:@,V4$("ZT+"$U(O\$``;P(B )@#1P`V$DA14PWRE2 M()(EEB `"&!L)'(W<;YN(5 NH2?A'Z@@@W,TP<\AH 0@*R0F#2U$`' _?7M! M?T*/+1Z<'B0H`"%!948Z"HLGP#$T- +1:9XM1E,,T$93"UDQ- J@_4428P5 M"H\+D1=B# %(=F0^005 .3H; !-P38 @-2\T+SDW($ _*R(W0"(@.? #H$4+ M/ELR`%)72CU.YT.73U#Z0CL24BM "Q$$(%<13&H_"% ` #QP+% <0%<2 M9W=Y3,- ;2C (4$#8 ,`8\1S+C*A+F%U3N=,:KU7$D$V(0MP#; @0%,K`'Q! M=14P'D GP"AP5Q$V11X`.%WP,C\$9A>$YN M389), (7`9 GX3RS8A(`(2!"7G4%0"P0$> %0$D?X&B_/&-9``2A,_(\LS/W M;S)A=1C0;R? 9$V&.? CH6C]6()W9H 1L&,!-#,@8"[@_R.0+2!B(#LA(S$H MD0:!.<']`Z!V:,$(8 0 60`5("L`/3'"W(J@+\NX!Y (6$XTAE .A%I*$#_,/--AB"1&4 AH( Q+4,@ MD/\)T23!-9-$T0-0-,$$( (0_P7 ))1^U'NE+ `C8SDE38;[+! 6H&0@0""2 M"L `P"3Q?2"P*&Z79M )X , !;%C_GDGP"' !)!M$"16(@2&8)0H>(SU&DNT, DM+?_O6>!5S#TCIF^-\._ M7*$`D/^!LB[ ?,$R<3CA!W BX `@_P!P,'&6@X 'B<> LSQ0P7;G*5)]2* C M+J=A_ DW'J1_^S;&T0;>:EXWRS*'!NEH[-_R&R M*H!N,:_B)_%1H6[C(5*_S1AVOU:EV Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 09:18:10 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Homopolar Question Resent-Message-ID: <"CHlCg2.0.MP.sECRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:19 AM 5/4/97, Dan Quickert wrote: >Horace, > >In your setup, do the terms 'rotor' and 'stator' correspond to the metal >disk and the return-path circuit? > >Sounds to me like we've a classic case of apples and oranges here. Greg's 3 >classifications identify only 2 parts: disk and magnet; yours 3 parts: >magnet, rotor, and stator. You'll never come to agreement if you have >fundamentally different models! > >What if your 3rd element is magnetically isolated from the rest of the >circuit? would that not make your setup the same as Greg's? > >-Dan Here's my amateur opinion: It is not possible to understand or account for the operation of a homopolar without taking into consideration the action of the magnetic field on both parts of the circuit. The reference frame of the magnet is unimportant. There can even be multiple magnets in multiple reference frames and their effects will still add. It is even possible to adjust the geometry of stator and aramture so that there is no magnet at all, the only fields being from the stator and armature currents. You can also create hybrid designs with mutliple mutually interacting elements, where one armature is both the stator and magnet for the next armature, for example. In fact, I posted such a hybrid design here some time ago. Magnetic isolation seems to me to be a completely unfruitful concept in designing homopolars. The homopolar works by interlocking flux loops with the circuit loop and then breaking that interlock without a cut, or vice versa. It is largely a topological phnomenon. All sheilding will do is move the cut points, and make the homopolar larger than it needs to be. On the other hand, use of ferrous material to close the magnetic loop and to increase flux densities, however, provides much advantage in many homopolar designs. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 11:28:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA08408; Sun, 4 May 1997 11:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:26:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:28:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Over Unity Reseach Resent-Message-ID: <"mAHai1.0.D32.aJDRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Over Unity Research > 1) We don't know exactly how the permanent magnets works. The general principles of permanent magnets are given on textbooks, but theoretical considerations ends here. Everything beyond is experimental based. Quantum mechanics does not help us on understanding natures of permanent magnets and to how to build better magnets and so. >Regards, > >Hamdi Ucar > >hamdix verisoft.com.tr Dear Hamdi, Quite honestly and sincerely, we do now know how permanent magnets work. In 1984, Joseph Newman first publicly disclosed the fundamental, mechanical nature of the interaction of gyroscopic particles -- which comprise all 'magnetic fields'. It is the interaction of these gyroscopic particles via their kinetic energy/spin which creates magnetic attraction/repulsion. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "How few understand the PHYSICAL lines of force! They will not see them, yet all the researches on the subject tend to confirm the views I put forth many years since. Thompson of Glasgow seems almost the only one who acknowledges them. He is perhaps the nearest to understanding what I meant. I am content to wait convinced as I am of the truth of my views." --- MICHAEL FARADAY "In speaking of the Energy of the field, however, I wish to be understood LITERALLY. All energy is the same as mechanical energy, whether it exists in the form of motion or in that of elasticity, or in any other form. The energy in electromagnetic phenomena is _mechanical_ energy." --- JAMES CLERK MAXWELL "According to the general theory of relativity, space is equipped with PHYSICAL qualities; an aether in this sense therefore exists. Space without aether is unthinkable with respect to the general theory of relativity..." --- ALBERT EINSTEIN ".... the magnetic field consists of gyroscopic-type particles which are the mechanical essence of E=mc^2 and represent an orderly flow of kinetic energy." --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 11:31:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA18547; Sun, 4 May 1997 11:29:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:29:48 -0700 X-Sender: hheffner corecom.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:34:56 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Hybrid Homopolar Resent-Message-ID: <"0gM_N3.0.iX4.RMDRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a cross section of a design for a hybrid homopolar as referred to in an earlier post: ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- | {o) | | (o) | | {o) | o) | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| (+) | | | | | | | | | | | | ... | | (-) | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | --- | | | | | | | | | | | | | | --- | (o) | | (o) | | (o) | | (o) | (o) | --- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- --- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- --- | (o) | | (o) | | (o) | | (o) | (o) | --- | | | | | | | | | | | | | | --- | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ... | | |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | {o) | | (o) | | (o) | o) | ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- The central shaft and bearings, which are electrically insulated from the above, and may even not be conductive, are not shown. The configuration (o) represents a ball bearing raceway. The ball bearings in the raceway have the dual function of acting as brushes. Any conducitve brush/bearing combination can be substituted. The rotating circular magnets with circular central holes are neodymium or other conductive material, or might be plated or metallic disk clad ceramic magnets. The important thing to the design is that adjacent segments rotate relative to each other, which can be achieved by having the central shaft attached to alternate segments and having the others held steady in mounts, or by driving adajacent pairs in opposite directions via friction wheel, belt, gear, or other mechanical means, or any combination of means. It is also possible to move the inner set of bearings to interface with the shaft, and to make the shaft conductive in segments. There are many variations. The important thing to note is that adjacent segments rotate relative to each other. To get the greatest amount of mutual rotation for the least amount of g forces and bearing friction, the wheels should rotate in opposite directions to each other. So, it becomes unclear as to which is the stator and which the armature, and in fact the role can be reversed by changing which rotate at what rate and at what direction. It is even possible, by eliminating one rotating element, to have an odd number of stators, and even number of armatures, or vice versa. The power takeoff for the unit above is at the final bearings/brushes. If ====== represents the above segments as a unit, and II represents a magnetic flux conduit, then it is possible to place these units in series to achieve any kind of generator dimensions, and to preserve or close the magnetic circuit, for example: (+) -------- | | - | series II=======II | electrical II II | connection II=======II | between | | + | units (-) -------- Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 12:20:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA23942; Sun, 4 May 1997 12:19:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:19:08 -0700 Message-ID: <336CE14C.40D3 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 15:19:41 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hybrid Homopolar References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-0Nse3.0.0s5.h4ERp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > Here is a cross section of a design for a hybrid homopolar as referred to > in an earlier post: > Interesting design, Horace! However, lets settle the following simple concept: ________________ __ | | | | >>>| S N |>>>flux| | | | | | ======================= | |<--------------------\ | axis--^ | | | / >>>| |>>>flux| | \ Fixed load | | | | / and circuit ----------------- |_|<--------------------\ Rotating magnet Stationary disk The magnet rotates, the disk is stationary, the load circuit is stationary and its contacts to the disk are static ones. This rig will not generate homopolar voltage in the disk and power to the load.Right? I'm still trying to understand these machines! IF it did work, then you could detect the signal with a pickup loop and a FET setup like you tried? If the disk is attached to the rotating magnet and the contacts are sliding ones with a stationary load, then it works, right? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 14:51:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA04161; Sun, 4 May 1997 14:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:42:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:41:04 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Homopolar Question Resent-Message-ID: <"osnoX.0.w01.BBGRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > Magnetic isolation seems to me to be a > completely unfruitful concept in designing > homopolars. Is this is a statement of opinion based on accounts of shielding experiments yourself or others have done, or is it based more on just your knoweldge of magnetism? > Hey, it's alright with me if you want to > believe in Freddy Kruger, provided of > course it's alright with you that I can > believe that magnetic flux is just as real as > the charged particles that they are made > from (or make). How's that for a bargain? > 8^) Deal. But for the record, I don't believe in Freddy (did I misspell his last name too? Oops, sorry Freddy) *or* field lines, and I'm pretty damn skeptical of 'fields' and 'particles' too. Most of the entities of physics are just useful fictions IMHO. Their actions, and maybe some of their relationships seem pretty real though. Funny, in the "real" (material) world we take entities to be the primary McGuffins of our reality. Bodies, things, and dollars. But in physics, the certainty of the entities' reality fades, and their changes and effects become solid and real by comparision. We don't agree on what magnetism is, but we pretty much know and agree on what it does in various circumstances. Enough sophomore philosophy - yuck. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 14:52:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA05073; Sun, 4 May 1997 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:48:28 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Hybrid Homopolar Resent-Message-ID: <"_u6g83.0.AF1.7IGRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > Here is a cross section of a design for a > hybrid homopolar as referred to in an > earlier post: Is that an original design of yours? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 14:52:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA11519; Sun, 4 May 1997 14:49:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:49:09 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BC5825.FE9C6D70 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:48:05 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"eNmXz2.0.sp2.KHGRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan wrote: > So Rick's setup might work. Anyone have a > working homopolar generator that puts out > enough juice to test that on? People have written some pretty good arguments why it wouldn't, but I'd still like to play with it myself and have a look. One thing I thought of looking at, and has been mentioned in some recent posts, is the importance of checking cases between the armature and external circuitry. The magnet frame I think is understood and fairly moot, but its easy to check anyway by just having the magnet and disc on separate bearings on the shaft. I'd like to see for myself a spinning magnet next to a stationary disc produce no current, and then go on to try some shielding setups. Shielding the external circuit wouldn't be hard, with short (coaxed?) leads coming out of the shield box to the brush connections. I believe nobody has mentioned recently the case of the external circuit rotating about a stationary magnet *and* disc. Should produce current, right? And if *everything* rotates together (spin the platform the whole rig is mounted on), no current? That's the case where I think shielding the external circuit would come in handy. Some people believe that it's the magnetism out on the external circuit too that adds up to the production of current. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 15:01:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA06152; Sun, 4 May 1997 14:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <336C3E21.CBA605A8 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 11:43:29 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: RE: Homopolar Question X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"iYxc01.0._V1.IQGRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My understanding of induction: .-(V)-. . . __ . . |NS| | | |NS| | | |NS| | | |NS| | | |NS| | | |NS| | | ====|NS|============= common axis of rotations |NS| | | |NS| | | |NS| | | |NS| | | |NS| | | |NS| | | |NS| | | M D1 D2 (Vm) (V1) (V2) magnet rotating at speed Vm Conductor Disk1 rotating at speed V1 Conductor Disk1 rotating at speed V2 Distance between D1 and D2 assumed too small and all flux passing from D1 and D2 are equal. So total of the flux passing from the measuring circuit (shown by dots) is assumed zero. No EMF inducted on measuring circuits. Say Ed = EMF difference inducted between on the edges of the D1 an D2 Ed is measured by the voltmeter V ************************** * * * Ed = k.(V1-V2) * * * ************************** k is the induction constant is proportional of the number of the flux lines crossing radial current path along the disks. Ed does NOT DEPEND on the speed of the ROTATING MAGNET! Its only depend to differential speed of conductors crossing an magnetic field. ROTATING OR MOVING FLUX CONCEPT DOES NOT EXIST ON CLASSICAL ELECTROMAGNETISM! Unfortunately textbooks prefers basically explains EMF by the movement of conductors on magnetic fields, not by the movement differences of parts of conductors on an magnetic fields. Everybody agree on this ? Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 15:40:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA10936; Sun, 4 May 1997 15:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:40:23 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Hybrid Homopolar Resent-Message-ID: <"XZocb.0.og2.wyGRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:19 PM 5/4/97, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >> Here is a cross section of a design for a hybrid homopolar as referred to >> in an earlier post: >> >Interesting design, Horace! However, lets settle the following simple >concept: > > ________________ __ > | | | | > >>>| S N |>>>flux| | > | | | | > ======================= | |<--------------------\ > | axis--^ | | | / > >>>| |>>>flux| | \ Fixed load > | | | | / and circuit > ----------------- |_|<--------------------\ > > Rotating magnet Stationary > disk > >The magnet rotates, the disk is stationary, the load circuit is >stationary and its >contacts to the disk are static ones. The rotation of the magnet is inconsequential. If bothe the disk and the rest of the circuit do not rotate, then there is no current generated. > >This rig will not generate homopolar voltage in the disk and power to >the load.Right? I'm still trying to understand these machines! It will generate a potential in the disk and an opposing potential in the stator. Net result - no current. > >IF it did work, then you could detect the signal with a pickup loop and >a FET setup >like you tried? > >If the disk is attached to the rotating magnet and the contacts are >sliding ones with >a stationary load, then it works, right? > >Frank Stenger Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 15:41:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA17132; Sun, 4 May 1997 15:39:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:39:59 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:45:12 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Hybrid Homopolar Resent-Message-ID: <"UpcDP.0.TB4.-0HRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Horace - > > > Here is a cross section of a design for a > > hybrid homopolar as referred to in an > > earlier post: > >Is that an original design of yours? > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI As far as I know it's orginal. I haven't done a patent search. I assume it's public domain because I posted the first version of it here on vortex many moons ago. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 15:43:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA11634; Sun, 4 May 1997 15:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:45:08 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Homopolar Question Resent-Message-ID: <"B88iV2.0.hr2.O1HRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:41 AM 5/4/97, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > > > Magnetic isolation seems to me to be a > > completely unfruitful concept in designing > > homopolars. > >Is this is a statement of opinion based on accounts of shielding >experiments yourself or others have done, or is it based more on just your >knoweldge of magnetism? It is a statement of opinion based on what I believe to be sound reasoning, which I have already put forth. > > > Hey, it's alright with me if you want to > > believe in Freddy Kruger, provided of > > course it's alright with you that I can > > believe that magnetic flux is just as real as > > the charged particles that they are made > > from (or make). How's that for a bargain? > > 8^) > >Deal. But for the record, I don't believe in Freddy (did I misspell his >last name too? Oops, sorry Freddy) *or* field lines, and I'm pretty damn >skeptical of 'fields' and 'particles' too. Most of the entities of physics >are just useful fictions IMHO. Their actions, and maybe some of their >relationships seem pretty real though. > >Funny, in the "real" (material) world we take entities to be the primary >McGuffins of our reality. Bodies, things, and dollars. But in physics, the >certainty of the entities' reality fades, and their changes and effects >become solid and real by comparision. We don't agree on what magnetism is, >but we pretty much know and agree on what it does in various circumstances. > >Enough sophomore philosophy - yuck. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI I couldn't agree more - when you look close reality is a world of mystery and shadows. Pretty creepy, huh? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 15:51:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA18913; Sun, 4 May 1997 15:50:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:50:18 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:55:31 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"WyKHA.0.Md4.fAHRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:48 AM 5/4/97, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Dan wrote: > > > So Rick's setup might work. Anyone have a > > working homopolar generator that puts out > > enough juice to test that on? > >People have written some pretty good arguments why it wouldn't, but I'd >still like to play with it myself and have a look. One thing I thought of >looking at, and has been mentioned in some recent posts, is the importance >of checking cases between the armature and external circuitry. The magnet >frame I think is understood and fairly moot, but its easy to check anyway >by just having the magnet and disc on separate bearings on the shaft. I'd >like to see for myself a spinning magnet next to a stationary disc produce Don't forget the stator must be stationary too! >no current, and then go on to try some shielding setups. Shielding the >external circuit wouldn't be hard, with short (coaxed?) leads coming out of >the shield box to the brush connections. > >I believe nobody has mentioned recently the case of the external circuit >rotating about a stationary magnet *and* disc. Been talking about tht for months it seems. >Should produce current, >right? Depends on the differential rate between the wheel and the rest of the circuit (the stator). >And if *everything* rotates together (spin the platform the whole >rig is mounted on), no current? That's the case where I think shielding the >external circuit would come in handy. Some people believe that it's the >magnetism out on the external circuit too that adds up to the production of >current. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Some people believe in the tooth fairy, ... and Freddy. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 15:51:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA18948; Sun, 4 May 1997 15:50:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:50:22 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:55:35 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Homopolar Question Resent-Message-ID: <"AcvBX3.0.-d4.jAHRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:43 AM 5/4/97, Hamdi Ucar wrote: >My understanding of induction: > > .-(V)-. > . . > __ . . > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | >====|NS|============= common axis of rotations > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > M D1 D2 > (Vm) (V1) (V2) > > >magnet rotating at speed Vm >Conductor Disk1 rotating at speed V1 >Conductor Disk1 rotating at speed V2 >Distance between D1 and D2 assumed too small and all flux passing from >D1 and D2 are equal. So total of the flux passing from the measuring >circuit (shown by dots) is assumed zero. No EMF inducted on measuring >circuits. > >Say Ed = EMF difference inducted between on the edges of the D1 an D2 > >Ed is measured by the voltmeter V > > ************************** > * * > * Ed = k.(V1-V2) * > * * > ************************** > >k is the induction constant is proportional of the number of the flux >lines crossing radial current path along the disks. > >Ed does NOT DEPEND on the speed of the ROTATING MAGNET! Hurray! You are so right! > >Its only depend to differential speed of conductors crossing an magnetic >field. Yes! > > >ROTATING OR MOVING FLUX CONCEPT DOES NOT EXIST ON CLASSICAL >ELECTROMAGNETISM! > >Unfortunately textbooks prefers basically explains EMF by the movement >of conductors on magnetic fields, not by the movement differences of >parts of conductors on an magnetic fields. > >Everybody agree on this ? If you break it down to the components, conventional theory works fine. It is the understanding of individuals in how to apply it that is difficult. > >Regards, > >Hamdi Ucar Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 16:25:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA17932; Sun, 4 May 1997 16:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 16:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:22:51 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Homopolar Question Resent-Message-ID: <"3wfQQ1.0._N4.laHRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:43 AM 5/4/97, Hamdi Ucar wrote: >My understanding of induction: > > .-(V)-. > . . > __ . . > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | >====|NS|============= common axis of rotations > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > |NS| | | > M D1 D2 > (Vm) (V1) (V2) > > [snip] Regards, Hamdi Ucar This nice drawing by Hamdi Ucar, with a slight modification in concept, gave me and idea for a novel brushless homopolar design. Imagine the two counterrotating wheels to be replaced with stationary non-conducting (say plastic) shells that contain mercury inside. There are openings between the disks and the shaft that channel the mercury between the disks through the shaft. In place of the -(V)- place a pump for the mercury. In the disks place vanes that force the mercury to flow clockwise in one disk and counterclockwise in the other. You could stack any number of layers of disks and magnets in this way to add voltages. The probelm is getting a good angular velocity for the mercury. This could be facilitated by forgetting the vanes and putting rotating metal disks inside the plastic enclosures with the mercury. Both designs have their unique properties it seems. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 16:28:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA19642; Sun, 4 May 1997 16:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 16:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:26:12 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: To much bandwidth Resent-Message-ID: <"hxasg1.0.po4.fiHRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've taken too much vortex bandwidth on non-ou EM discussions, so I'll make a New Year's resolution anew to stop it. Thanks for your patience. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 16:35:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA25672; Sun, 4 May 1997 16:33:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 16:33:41 -0700 Message-ID: <336D19C2.6BF9 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 08:50:34 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toroid - H outside? References: <199705031714.MAA02304 natasha.eden.com> <336B8585.659C@interlaced.net> <336BDA6A.38AC@microtronics.com.au> <336C1140.54@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ijNEO3.0.zG6.KpHRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > > > So if the external H is zero, how does the flux circulate around its > > flux source (the moving electrons in the wire)? > > > The answer, Greg, is VERY CAREFULLY! (Joke!) > > Scott's infinitely thin current sheet is, of course, a convienient > fiction. The real toroidal current would be something like: > > H or B = zero outside toroidal cavity > > outer surface of toroidal shell > __________________________________ ^No current density outside^ > +++++++++(last bit of flux)+++++++ > >>>>>>>>>(last conduction electrons) > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>>>>>>(most inner cond. elec.)>>> > __________________________________ > ++++++++++(Full inner toroid field) > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Inner field across the > cavity. > > The above is supposed to be curved as per toroid with electrons > flowing CW around the small toroid dia. in the plane of the page. > My point is that the flux does penetrate the conductor at power to low > radio frequency - it also makes itsy-witsy loops around the conduction > carriers as you require. But, the flux starts strong inside the inner > wall and gets weaker and weaker until you reach the outer surface. > Outside of that, the flux is gone - or, for a wound coil of wire - very > small unless you get very close to a single turn. > > I have a basic program I wrote to flux-plot around straight solenoids > in which I use many circular turns of current - rather than a 3D helix- > to simulate the solenoid turns. If I try to interpret the curves too > close to a turn when my grid was picked to show the whole coil, I can > get into trouble. If I want to look at the field close to a turn, I > have to "zoom" in with my solution window and then it does a good job. > > I don't see a big problem - Scott's OK with his ideal toroidal shell, > and You are right about the little details very near the turns in a > winding. > > Still, the emf induced in secondary depends on the rate of change of > the flux inside the cavity - any outside flux is negligible. > > There I go again - sounding like I understand EM - sigh!! > > Frank Stenger Hi Frank, Thanks for the above. Looks like the same case as my "Why you can't make a magnetic monopole from magnets" example. I how see how the flux will circulare around the electrons, but not really escape to space. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 20:18:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA14520 for billb@eskimo.com; Sun, 4 May 1997 20:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:18:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: gwatson microtronics.com.au Sun May 4 20:18:12 1997 Received: from orca.microtronics.com.au (root orca.microtronics.com.au [203.30.55.1]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA14303; Sun, 4 May 1997 20:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp.microtronics.com.au (ppp0g.microtronics.com.au [203.30.55.106]) by orca.microtronics.com.au (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA25254; Mon, 5 May 1997 12:45:17 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <336D4FE1.488D microtronics.com.au> Old-Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 12:41:29 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Simple Ou Device Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1ED97BF77454" X-Diagnostic: Submission size exceeds 40000 bytes X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1ED97BF77454 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I have attached the some data on the patent 4,215,330. Here is more data on my "Black Box". The length of the ramp is 250mm. The lift at the end is 30mm. There are two 300mm long side magnet assy. The ball rolls on 12mm wide, 12mm high, 10mm inside alum "U" channel. The ball is a 12mm dia chrome plated steel. Unlike the patent 4,215,330, my ball always is in contact with the track. I use multiple magnets, but not as the patent shows. My exit is very different. Its the exit where its all at. Side to side balancing of the magnetic forces is critical. The ball must always stay balanced or on the "Neutral Line" as Wesley Gray would say. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. 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vLkVdhkOr/Ekf1rYhTpb/Nrpu5gYX/Iuv4WqzV8IUp4iNfIvf/MYNaYoOvMhz1ANjvNAn2GB Jc2CnPJY/YnQaPNBv/RmM5CMWO3rjjyq7e9MX/WFRjPIFezPaZsLjYNUb/Vg7+nIteSa/up/ B5Y/H/ZqX+ZJ3uKw/iydu/Zy3+MxXXrd+fVzn/ceEveDTGXQcfaXg/d6P/hM3KXYHvgtT/hL D3ge/uGK//iQH/mSP/mUb24FAAA7 --------------1ED97BF77454-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 4 23:27:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA09694; Sun, 4 May 1997 23:26:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:26:18 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <336D7D84.21E6 math.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 23:26:12 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: To much bandwidth References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VBCOZ3.0.ON2.AsNRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > I've taken too much vortex bandwidth on non-ou EM discussions, > so I'll make a New Year's resolution anew to stop it. Excellent. I don't want to quell your creative energies or scientific curiousity, but vortex often looks like the Horace Heffner Idea of the Moment Newsletter, or the Homopolar Times. These subjects may have a more appropriate audience elsewhere. My personal vote remains to focus on *experimental anomalies*, and the issues immediately surrounding them. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 00:24:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA10035; Mon, 5 May 1997 00:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:22:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 21:21:22 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Homopolar Question Resent-Message-ID: <"JLr603.0.fS2.7hORp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - One of the few inventions suppressed by the gov because of military implications was the mecury-brush idea for homopolars. But you knew that, right? First rule of inventing: somebody alreaddy thought of it. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 01:04:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA17640; Mon, 5 May 1997 01:03:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 01:03:59 -0700 Message-ID: <336D944E.2D25 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 17:33:26 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: To much bandwidth References: <336D7D84.21E6@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Rf4z33.0.YJ4.kHPRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: > > Horace Heffner wrote: > > > > I've taken too much vortex bandwidth on non-ou EM discussions, > > so I'll make a New Year's resolution anew to stop it. > > Excellent. I don't want to quell your creative energies or > scientific curiousity, but vortex often looks like > the Horace Heffner Idea of the Moment Newsletter, > or the Homopolar Times. These subjects may have a more appropriate > audience elsewhere. Those of us not frozen concrete or by our budgets, I believe, enjoy Horace, Fred and others. Who knows when the creative mind will one day link something Fred mentioned with a posting from Horace and change the world. > My personal vote remains to focus on *experimental anomalies*, > and the issues immediately surrounding them. Good idea, but we also need the "Idea" first. > Barry Merriman -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 03:15:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA16737; Mon, 5 May 1997 03:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 03:13:53 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 06:11:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970505061140_1785639347 emout04.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: dansway pacbell.net, jdecker@keelynet.com Subject: The David Hamel Scalar Generator Resent-Message-ID: <"Ub1hx1.0.G54.SBRRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Dan LaRochelle had recently visited David Hamel in Canada and he sent to me some interesting informations about the David Hamel Scalar Generator. You will find some schemes of this device at : http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/hamscgen.htm I hope that this information will interest you, Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 03:52:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA28642; Mon, 5 May 1997 03:49:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 03:49:52 -0700 Message-ID: <336DBB1B.3213 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 20:18:59 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Simple Ou Device Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------48E0555B187D" Resent-Message-ID: <"IPDwQ1.0.L_6.EjRRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------48E0555B187D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I have attached the data on the patent 4,215,330 for reference. Here is more data on my "Black Box". The length of the ramp is 250mm. The lift at the end is 30mm. There are two 300mm long side magnet assy. The ball rolls on 12mm wide, 12mm high, 10mm inside alum "U" channel. The ball is a 12mm dia chrome plated steel. Unlike the patent 4,215,330, my ball is always in contact with the track. I use multiple magnets, but not as the patent shows. My method of generation the graduated B field for the ramp and exit is very different. Its the exit where its all at. Side to side balancing of the magnetic forces is critical. The ball must always stay balanced or on the "Neutral Line" as Wesley Gray would say. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. 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k6yv0u6b4AkH9EhLrevt7npgCnNYdlZtaRs7LOIRk7jEJj4xitlbAAA7 --------------48E0555B187D-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 05:51:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA04309; Mon, 5 May 1997 05:50:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 05:50:33 -0700 Message-Id: <336DD104.8BBC1604 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 16:22:28 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex , Evan Soule Subject: Re: Over Unity Reseach X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YH6NN2.0.B31.OUTRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Evan Soule Wrote: > Quite honestly and sincerely, we do now know how permanent magnets work. > In 1984, Joseph Newman first publicly disclosed the fundamental, mechanical > nature of the interaction of gyroscopic particles -- which comprise all > 'magnetic fields'. It is the interaction of these gyroscopic particles via > their kinetic energy/spin which creates magnetic attraction/repulsion. Ok, If you or somebody understand it, tell me how the hysteresis figure is related to the structure of the magnet, why some permanent magnets are powerful than others and what will be the next material used on magnets as improvement? At least, give me a numeric figure, a prediction if you know it. Making a macroscopic mathematical models of things works is not understanding it's internal structure. How we can understand magnets and things in order to predict they properties without build them? Is there any theory capable to make such a predictions? Did we know why is there a nuclear-strong force and nuclear-weak force (now called electro-weak force)? Which constraint makes atoms stable or unstable? Is anybody predict the decay rate of an isotope by calculations from theories? At last, why is electron is weighting 510.999 KeV/c^2 and the proton 938.272 MeV/c^2 ? Still our knowledge of the matter is based on experimental basis. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 06:08:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA06456; Mon, 5 May 1997 06:07:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 06:07:40 -0700 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.251.148 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 09:07:30 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest Resent-Message-ID: <"3w6k-3.0.oa1.RkTRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In Re to Greg Watson's expressions of interest >I have explained the results I am getting with my linear model. I ask >for feedback as to where and / or how I may be making a mistake. I ask >for feedback as to how I can improve my test setup. But the only >feedback I get is "CLOSE THE LOOP". > >I can show a real energy gain and I ask for comment on where the energy >may be coming from. What do I get, "CLOSE THE LOOP". > >I express concern for the cost of using this energy and ask for >comment. "CLOSE THE LOOP" comes back. A "CLOSE THE LOOP" demo would be nice but the work is still of great interest without it. The linear model testing is very significant and it could be that Greg has made a major discovery. My guess for the source of the energy is conversion of thermal energy into magnetic energy and then into mechanical energy. In a previous posting I showed that the power density for magnetic interactions, S , was given by: S = d(mu)/dt H dot H with B = mu H . This result comes from standard E&M theory and I think that it is remarkable that standard theory gives an energy conservation equation with a non-zero source term. A proof of conservation of energy is only possible under certain circumstances such as: mu = constant (the linear region - then d(mu)/dt = 0 ) H applied only in one direction. In more than one dimension mu is isotropic. If Greg's device is not covered by one of these conditions then there is a possiblity that it may actually be producing energy. The energy produced would come from the thermal energy in the magnetic material. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 07:22:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA05695; Mon, 5 May 1997 07:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 07:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 06:24:34 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Homopolar Question Resent-Message-ID: <"DUeWP1.0.tO1.AoURp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:21 PM 5/4/97, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > >One of the few inventions suppressed by the gov because of military >implications was the mecury-brush idea for homopolars. But you knew that, >right? > >First rule of inventing: somebody alreaddy thought of it. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI There are much better ways to implement mercury brushes for military use, i.e. for rail guns and beam weapons using high speed rotors. The stuff I posted I thought was novel and amusing because there were no "brushes" at all. The mercury was the primary current carrier. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 07:50:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA18091; Mon, 5 May 1997 07:49:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 07:49:11 -0700 Message-ID: <336DF331.354D skylink.net> Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 07:48:17 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: The Mills Penn State Report Is Back References: <199705051413.KAA09491 mail4.voicenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DC9Yo2.0.aQ4.dDVRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Forwarded message: > From: John Coviello > Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion > Subject: The Mills Penn State Report Is Back > Date: Friday, May 02, 1997 1:08 PM > > To whom it may concern: > > I found the Penn State (it doesn't actually say Penn State anymore) > report on the BlackLightPower site. The URL is: > > http://www.blacklightpower.com/ureport.html > > --John C. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 08:10:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA21253; Mon, 5 May 1997 08:08:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:08:27 -0700 Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 11:08:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199705051508.LAA27864 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (message from Rick Monteverde on Fri, 2 May 1997 16:36:08 -1000) Subject: Re: John Hutchison Resent-Message-ID: <"ctGbx.0.yB5.gVVRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde (monteverde worldnet.att.net) said: > Well maybe, but there was allegedly *no* heat. He's supposed to > have a piece of partially "melted" aluminum bar with a piece of > paper stuck in it. On the video you can see the aluminum melting > and pooling on the plywood and there's no somke or sign of > burning. In another scene, a moly-steel bar - I think it was a > piece of an old injection molding screw, suddenly gets 'sorted' > out by elements - carbon and other stuff sifting to one end, iron > and everything else all in bands along its length. There was a > scene of a file glowing orange that looked to be RF heating. Have you ever burned magnesium? Once ignited it burns in air, water, pure nitrogen, hydrogen, carbon dioxide, whatever. Now if you have ever lit a piece of magnesium tape, it may have be to light off some thermite. Also known as "rust and dust" thermite is a mixture of powdered aluminium and iron oxide Fe2O3. Once you get the aluminium hot enough, it pulls the oxygen out of the iron oxide and leaves you a puddle of molten iron and a dusting of aluminum oxide. Why is aluminum so hard to ignite? Because alumina--aluminiun oxide makes a very good protective coating, and you have to strip it off. But once you do, watch out! I've done this, and I have also welded aluminium with an acetylene tourch instead of a Heliarc (Helium sheathed electric arc). The trick is to use a reducing flame, and work with a very small area of molten aluminum. (Don't do this in an unventilated area. If you are doing it just right, you are using carbon monoxide to clean the surface, and if you falter, you have a burning workpiece that cannot be put out with most common fire extinguishers. Okay, now anyone else who has seen molten aluminium raise you raise your hands. Was it burning? Or in a strong reducing atomsphere? In inert gas? In a vaccum? How much was it glowing? Melting aluminium under an alumina blanket does work, but it is not easy. So unless that aluminium you saw melting was in an inert atmosphere or in a vacuum, it wasn't aluminium. Now gallium looks a lot like aluminium, but will melt in your hand. Anyone who has never seen molten aluminum, and never gets to pick up the gallium can be very easily misled. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 09:06:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA27606; Mon, 5 May 1997 08:59:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:59:57 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970505115544.00a074d0 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 11:55:48 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Quinney Subject: RE: Homopolar Question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Ph6mT3.0.Gl6.yFWRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:24 AM 5/5/97 -0800, Horace wrote: >There are much better ways to implement mercury brushes for military use, >i.e. for rail guns and beam weapons using high speed rotors. The stuff I >posted I thought was novel and amusing because there were no "brushes" at >all. The mercury was the primary current carrier. > What if there were no separate "disc" at all, but just a sheet of mercury, spinning between two insulating plates. We could even add copper powder to the mercury to increase the conductivity. For that matter, we could use other liquids (ionic conduction) or seeded gases or plasma.. Oh oh..I feel a brainstorm coming on... 8^) Horace... you suggested an unusual (working) homopolar configuration. The conductive disc was stationary and the stator (external electric circuit) revolved around the disc. Was this your own idea, or is it mentioned elsewhere? I don't recall coming across it before.. If the revolving portion is "outside" of the main area of the magnetic field where it passes through the stationary disc, it may be an anomaly. ( and that's a good thing, because it will then keep Barry happy ;-) (maybe) Colin Quinney, Toronto, Canada. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 10:13:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA07963; Mon, 5 May 1997 10:07:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:07:16 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:09:24 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: John Hutchison Resent-Message-ID: <"-_Bxk3.0.Hy1.2FXRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Rick Monteverde (monteverde worldnet.att.net) said: > > > Well maybe, but there was allegedly *no* heat. He's supposed to > > have a piece of partially "melted" aluminum bar with a piece of > > paper stuck in it. On the video you can see the aluminum melting > > and pooling on the plywood and there's no somke or sign of > > burning. Robert Eachus said: > Okay, now anyone else who has seen molten aluminium raise you >raise your hands. Was it burning? Or in a strong reducing >atomsphere? In inert gas? In a vaccum? How much was it glowing? >Melting aluminium under an alumina blanket does work, but it is not >easy. So unless that aluminium you saw melting was in an inert >atmosphere or in a vacuum, it wasn't aluminium. I have melted Al by induction in both air and poor vacuum. In air, and if the temperature does not increase too rapidly, my samples (about 2 cm diameter) developed a thick enough Al oxide coating that subsequently acted like a cocoon, containing the molten Al metal inside. In poor vacuum an Al oxide film formed, but it was too thin to contain the metal after it melted. Melting Al just barely glows dull red. > Now gallium looks a lot like aluminium, but will melt in your >hand. Anyone who has never seen molten aluminum, and never gets to >pick up the gallium can be very easily misled. Yes! I fully agree. Unless we know for sure that the "aluminum" truly was Al, there are several low-melting metal alloys it could have been. You can't distinguish them easily by sight. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 10:22:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA02075; Mon, 5 May 1997 10:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:15:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:17:13 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolytic Mills Cell Replications? Resent-Message-ID: <"uGQSS1.0.LW.-MXRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Stolper wrote: >On April 24, George Holz posted that the BlackLight Power web site had >"Summary information on many replications by different organizations of the >K2CO3 - Ni - H2O cells with high Pout/Pin ratios..." > >How long age were those replications done? > >Were any of the replicators identified? I checked out the BlackLight site shortly after the information was posted here on Vortex. There were three lengthy documents discussing tens confirmations of BL's technology and Mills' theory. Each reference was given a number. However, the fourth document that was supposed to give the reference information (Journal, Report whatever), only gave me an error message every time I tried to access it. One of the confirmations discussed was the NASA test of Mills cells. I got a copy of the NASA report shortly after it was issued, and I studied it carefully. The BlackLight discussion substantially misrepresented the data and conclusions contained in the NASA report. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 10:38:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA04392; Mon, 5 May 1997 10:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:33:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:35:25 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Homopolar question Resent-Message-ID: <"fU9Us.0.Y41.1eXRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I see this Monday morning that there are dozens of posts on Vortex about homopolar machines. At least one post invited me to participate in the discussion. I'm sorry, but I have a very busy two weeks ahead of me, and I don't have time to get into any detailed responses--despite my natural inclination to try to teach. I will limit myself to the following global or general comment: According to Faraday's law, the only ways there can be a net "emf" or "voltage" around a closed circuit are if (1) magnetic flux through the area enclosed by the circuit changes, or (2) two or more parts of the circuit have suitable motion relative to each other. In the latter case, the key idea is how electric and magnetic fields transform between moving systems (Galilean relativity is adequate if velocities are low). The trickiest part is usually to apply the transformation correctly where two sliding surfaces meet. Note that static electric fields can be generated in many systems, but their positive and negative contributions will always exactly cancel around any closed circuit. Homopolar systems make for good paradoxes. It's easy to trip up even good students and most professionals, too. If you don't know the general points (1) and (2) I listed above, then you will certainly get hopelessly mired when you try to do the detailed analysis of a homopolar system. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 10:49:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA04567; Mon, 5 May 1997 10:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705051734.KAA00368 mail.pacifier.com> X-Sender: jimbell mail.pacifier.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 10:30:25 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: jimbell pacifier.com (Jim Bell) Subject: Re: Looking for meter Resent-Message-ID: <"QK0Zh3.0.G71.-eXRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 20:52 5/03/97 -0400, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: >Jim Bell wrote: >> >(snip) > >> In this circuit, the lower limit of current which can be measured is >> approximately the input current of the op amps involved, which is usually >> less than 10 picoamps. > >Holy Moly, Horace! We just found another NATIONAL TREASURE on this >list - Jim Bell! Warm up the printers! >Frank Stenger Yep, I'm here. Jim Bell jimbell pacifier.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 10:57:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA15248; Mon, 5 May 1997 10:48:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:48:16 -0700 Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 13:47:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199705051747.NAA29191 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (Schaffer@gav.gat.com) Subject: Re: John Hutchison Resent-Message-ID: <"2PE0R1.0.vj3.UrXRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael J. Schaffer said: > I have melted Al by induction in both air and poor vacuum. In air, and if > the temperature does not increase too rapidly, my samples (about 2 cm > diameter) developed a thick enough Al oxide coating that subsequently acted > like a cocoon, containing the molten Al metal inside. In poor vacuum an Al > oxide film formed, but it was too thin to contain the metal after it > melted. Melting Al just barely glows dull red. Exactly. If you brightly illuminate the aluminum--and in welding you usually do--you can't see the glow. But the characteristic of melting aluminum in anything other than noble gasses or vacuum is that it instantly forms an oxide skin. You never see the "typical" bright metalic sheen of other molten metals. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 11:24:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA09693; Mon, 5 May 1997 11:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 11:12:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199705051508.LAA27864 spectre.mitre.org> References: (message from Rick Monteverde on Fri Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:10:56 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: John Hutchison Resent-Message-ID: <"mNBkv.0.NN2.DCYRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert - >[snip] > >Now gallium looks a lot like aluminium, but will melt in your >hand. Anyone who has never seen molten aluminum, and never gets to >pick up the gallium can be very easily misled. Without a doubt the thing could have been faked any number of ways. Many different tricks could have been applied. If real heat was used, then the plywood and nearby sheet of paper were castings made of heat resistant material. I would have used frozen mercury for the metal bar as suggested, because you don't have to fake the wood products, or arrange for a fancy heater or shoot the scene through the window of some kind of big furnace. The "plywood" did look pretty good, and stayed that way with molten metal pooling on it. Try that, even with solder at 450-500 degrees or so. You see a brown ring forming, and some smoke. The cracks and 'splinters' seen in the video are substantially unlike anything I've ever seen from ordinary melting. The samples from the shelves being handled all dramatically show these effects, and I don't think (or recall - it's been a while since I saw the video) they were all aluminum. As to why this might be happening if they're not faking it, here's sort of what I had in mind as speculation. From a 1st year physics text: "Another type of bond occurs in metals. metals have relatively free outer electrons, and present theories indicate that in a metallic solid, these outer electrons roam rather freely among all the metal atoms which, without their outer electrons, act like positive ions. The electrostatic attraction between the metal ions and the negative electron "gas" (as it is called) is what is believed to hold the solid together." If that's true, and it's possible to pump the volume of that electron gas up or down to the point that the attracting force among the ions is overwhelmed, then your metal falls apart - probably first along the weak point of the planes of crystal boundaries. Note that this is not really a matter of voltage, which is a difference in potential. There could be zero voltage between the metal sample and nearby environments. There just needs to be an extreme lack or excess of electrons. Like in a large current. Sort of like 'exploding' wires? Hutchison uses van de Graaffs in combination with Tesla coils. You'd think that would be a way to get some pretty dense pockets of charge within regions of standing waves between the gizmos. Aside from whatever other implications this would have, the possibilities for manufacturing and industrial processes are incredible. Can you imagine castings! The alloys! Wow. Naw, this *can't* be real. Can it? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 12:07:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA15611; Mon, 5 May 1997 11:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 11:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:52:03 -0600 (MDT) From: Jorg Ostrowski To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: ash freenet.calgary.ab.ca Subject: Prodium Superfluidity In-Reply-To: <19970502235306.AAA7028 LOCALNAME> Message-Id: Organization: Calgary Free-Net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"9EpKb1.0.rp3.ArYRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: NOTE: This is a copy of a fax from engineer Roland Prodaniuk of Pro Consulting Scientific Research Institute, entitled "Prodium Superfluidity". I give this message incase someone may know what he is talking about. My only interest in FE or O/U is in the "practical" applications of real-world devices/co-generators (as an alternative to solar/photovoltaics) for autonomous homes/buildings that we have already built or are designing for self-sufficient (off-grid) projects. I will be glad to relay any comments back to the above engineer. "ABSTRACT: Hydrogen gas in a vacuum, below the S-G line, reverts to any of 4 superfluid states. Prodium, an advanced theoretical analog of protium (single proton hydrogen), per ProAtom theories, has a proton made up of a combined positron, neutrino, and anti-neutron signature. When Prodium twins in superfluid state, the electrons travel in Cooper's pairs and the nucleons pair as two positrons flanked by two neutrinos, both rotons radiating half charge continuously. Either one or both of the anti-neutron signatures are ejected, causing the release of energy. A single anti-neutron signature will decay into two neutral pions. Both will decay into either four neutral pions or a single neutral pion plus an anti-neutrino. By-products of Blacklight's process are definitely not hydrinos, but ProAtom Theory's actual Prodium Superfluids." __________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), 3 demonstration projects in Canada built 1979, 1981, 1994, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm _____________________________________________________________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 12:28:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA19473; Mon, 5 May 1997 12:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 11:22:57 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Homopolar Question Resent-Message-ID: <"XdU9O3.0.Am4._9ZRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:55 AM 5/5/97, Quinney wrote: >At 06:24 AM 5/5/97 -0800, Horace wrote: [snip] > >What if there were no separate "disc" at all, but just a sheet of mercury, >spinning between two insulating plates. We could even add copper powder to >the mercury to increase the conductivity. For that matter, we could use >other liquids (ionic conduction) or seeded gases or plasma.. Oh oh..I feel >a brainstorm coming on... 8^) Great! > >Horace... you suggested an unusual (working) homopolar configuration. The >conductive disc was stationary and the stator (external electric circuit) >revolved around the disc. Was this your own idea, or is it mentioned >elsewhere? My concepts of how homopolars work were learned from discussion and from thinking about discussion here. It's all in the vortex logs. The discussion was sparked and driven courtesy Chris Tinsley, on more than one occasion. (Thanks Chris and others) I've since run across homopolars in reading and of course had more interest in them due to past encounters here. The multi-disk configuration was out of my brain, but I think logical. Doesn't mean it wasn't done before. There are cylindrical versions that have been around a long time that demonstrate the principle. >I don't recall coming across it before.. If the revolving >portion is "outside" of the main area of the magnetic field where it passes >through the stationary disc, it may be an anomaly. ( and that's a good >thing, because it will then keep Barry happy ;-) (maybe) > >Colin Quinney, >Toronto, Canada. Yes, part of the circuit may be unaffected and outside the influence, but the part exposed gets the flux. It's still just a matter of recognizing that the ciruit is a closed loop and the flux lines are loops. Sorry, but no anomalies that I know of, so I guess we should knock it off. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 12:32:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA19826; Mon, 5 May 1997 12:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: "Scudder,Henry J" To: Vortex-L Subject: FW: Electric Sports Car Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:14:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"z6Nmu3.0.gr4.-BZRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- From: Scudder, Henry J. To: Vortex-L Subject: Electric Sports Car Date: Friday, May 02, 1997 12:46PM Gnorts Vorts. Is there anyone on the list in the Seattle area, who would be interested in checking out an electric car for me? I live in LA, and don't get to Seattle often. I am looking for an electric sport car to commute in. (If they won't go very far, at least it should look sexy!). There is one being offered for sale in Seattle, and I would like someone to drive it a little, and report back to me about its mechanical condition, handling etc., so I don't waste a couple of hundred dollars on airfare to look at a piece of junk. Hank Scudder From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 13:39:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA12411; Mon, 5 May 1997 13:35:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 13:35:28 -0700 Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:43:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Jason Aldo To: Tom Miller Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minto Wheel In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"IcjpP.0.q13.FIaRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If the Minto Wheel was operated as a closed, insulated system using a heat pump to vaporize the liquid in the lower tank and condense the vapor in the upper tank, then no heat would ever be dumped out, only recyled in a closed loop. According to conventional thermodynamics, all heat engines MUST dump heat out somewhere. Does this mean that if the Minto wheel is operated as an insulated, closed system with a heat pump, that it is not a heat engine but a gravity engine using temperture phase changes to cause the wheel to always be heavier on top????? All that would be happening is the heat in the system would be constantly "pumped" from the uppermost tank to the lower tank. The heat would just be moved around, and gravity alone would be doing the work of rotating the wheel. I'm not very good with thermodynamics so this might be all wrong. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Pete Aldo > OnWed, 30 Apr 1997, Tom Miller wrote: > > > Peter Aldo wrote about the claimed 85% sfficiency of the Minto > > Wheel, and how a heat pump attached might work. > > > > > > Peter: > > I don't know any more about the efficiency of the Minto Wheel > > than anyone else. However, it seems to me that a significant > > portion of the equation is the evaporation of water remaining > > on the wheel, after it leaves the heated water. > > > > I think an efficient heat pump could help, and would make > > an O/U device, if the heat pump actually performed at a > > COP of 5, and the minto wheel was at even 30% efficiency. > > > > One possibility would be to enclose the wheel in an insulated > > building. The heat pump would heat the water, and cool the air > > or other gas above, in a closed loop The problem with this is > > that the evaporater coils would ice up, before a really efficient > > temp was reached (from the vapor off the wheel). > > > > I think a better way would be to insulate the water tank, but > > force ambient air over first, the evaporater coils, then the wheel. > > This would tend to dehydrate the air, as well as chill it. Both > > would help chill the wheel. > > > > Most likely, though, the wheel is best left in its simplest > > state, or maybe try to enhance efficiency by careful decisions > > about working fluid, and tank configuration. For instance, > > increasing the tank surface area (fins?) should aid heat > > excahnge, hence efficiency. Maybe some kind of cloth blanket, > > to hold more water to evaporate? > > > > Tom Miller > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 15:08:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA29481; Mon, 5 May 1997 15:01:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:01:33 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705051654.ZM4219 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:54:36 -0500 In-Reply-To: Peter Jason Aldo "Re: Minto Wheel" (May 5, 3:31pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minto Wheel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"7TRgq1.0.VC7.yYbRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On May 5, 3:31pm, Peter Jason Aldo wrote: > .....if the Minto wheel is operated as an > insulated, closed system with a heat pump, that it is not a heat engine > but a gravity engine using temperture phase changes to cause the wheel to > always be heavier on top????? Good question, but I think it would still be a heat engine. Gravity is only a reactive effect to the phase change and relocation of the medium. This device uses one to exploit the other, closed or open cycle. Anyone have handy some torque/rpm requirements for a small 500w generator? Haven't found anything useful on the web yet. I am trying to figure out how big this thing needs to be to be somewhat useful. -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 15:44:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA19768; Mon, 5 May 1997 15:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:22:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 18:21:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970505181936_-64139653 emout03.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, tom@gorge.net Subject: Re: Minto Wheel Resent-Message-ID: <"NXJEI3.0.hq4.QsbRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is a nice article on "Perpetual Motion Machines" in Scientific American by Stanley Angrist, which includes a discussion of an ammonia heat pump type perpetual motion machine that discusses some of these issues. Unfortunately, I have lost the date of the article (which I have a copy of), except I can tell by included references that it is past March 1967. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 15:54:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA04465; Mon, 5 May 1997 15:38:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:38:19 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Secondary Electron-Light Electron, Generator? Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 22:37:37 +0000 Message-ID: <19970505223735.AAA4245 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"2-OrR3.0.a51.N5cRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: MgO is stable against reduction by hydrogen and has a secondary electron emission ratio of 20 to 25 secondaries/primary at 1500 volts bombarding energy. A concentric "can" device about 2 inches diameter with an axial tungsten filament, a "grid" of stainless or nickel mesh, pressurized to about 40 microns (0.04 Torr) with hydrogen and/or deuterium and surrounded with an anodized magnesium cylinder, might show some "Hydrino" reactions. The pressure is not real critical, but, should be figured for an electron mean free path in hydrogen of 2 centimeters at 40 microns. The magnesium cylinder can be internally anodized to get a MgO surface using the following technique: An aqueous solution {pH 4.0 to 4.8)of sodium dichromate 10%, with 2 to 5 percent monosodium phosphate using a stainless steel, brass, or carbon, axial cathode, with a current of 5 to 10 amperes per sq. foot, at a temperature of 50 C, for 30 to 60 minutes. The hydrogen can be introduced using methane or propane, or such as a "carrier" A current limiting resistor would probably be a good idea. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 17:26:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA09801; Mon, 5 May 1997 17:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 17:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705060013.UAA26615 relay1.smtp.psi.net> From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Electrolytic ills Cell Replications Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:15:08 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LKKSd1.0.1P2.fVdRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Stolper wrote: How long age were those replications done? Were any of the replicators identified? The material on the BlackLight Power site is in several formats including viewgraphs, publicity releases and papers. Dates are not always clear except in the newer paper refs. I haven't read the whole 1.5 inch thick printed stack yet. It looks like the reports cover work done during the last several years. Attention Michael Schaffer - the references are now readable and two extensive detailed papers have been added in the last week with over 100 pages of new material. Can you provide any detail on how the NASA report was misrepresented by BLP? The newer material on the site looks pretty solid to me as far as experimental verification of excess power. George Holz Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 17:46:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA15540; Mon, 5 May 1997 17:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 17:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705060038.UAA02275 relay1.smtp.psi.net> From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Electrolytic Mills Cell Replications Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:38:35 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3T_qF3.0.ko3.wsdRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry about the mistyped subject line in my last message. I hope the cells don't actually have any ills. Could this be a subconscious reaction to all this new physics?? George Holz Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 19:57:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA06411; Mon, 5 May 1997 19:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 19:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <336E9B6F.50CA gorge.net> Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 19:46:07 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Jason Aldo CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minto Wheel References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0g7Wx.0.5a1.YefRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Pete: I am not at all sure that o/u is possible, unless the heat pump also scavenges low grade ambient heat from outside the loop. BUT... Things to think about: 1. If possible, I would not start the heating cycle before "bottom dead center." This, of course depends on how long the heat takes to pass through the TANK. You could begin heating the outside of the tank, if the heat did not penetrate into the working fluid, causing expansion BEFORE "BDC." 2. #1 shows how a slow speed is necessary for efficiency. any attempt to increase speed will leave some of the weight (which must be transferred for movement to occur) to be left in the hot container. 3. This brings up the binary fluid idea: Something like water/ammonia could work better, by causing the heat to vaporize just a portion of the total fluid. When this portion (the ammonia) vaporizes, it could drive the remaining fluid (water) to the other tank [where the cooling ammonia would absorb into the water] Maybe another binary, such as freon/water, would be better, with no absorbtion. The point is, to design the tanks such that the end of the connecting pipe is so located that the water part of the binary is transferred to the other tank. Thus, the expansion of the gas does the most work. 4. Also, the connecting pipes should be large enough to transfer the working fluid easily. 5. Tanks of aluminum, with fins both internal, and external, seem best. 6. A possible variation would be tanks of gas, or even air, connected a large pipe. The pipe would contain a lead weight, as a free piston, which would be moved by the gas, instead of a working liquid moving. the pipe could be straight, (through the axle) or slightly curved, (around the axle). Hope this helps. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 20:49:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA27263; Mon, 5 May 1997 20:46:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:46:37 -0700 Message-ID: <336EA964.2497 skylink.net> Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 20:45:40 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Earth-Gyro Power Transducer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-8WeP3.0.vf6.ScgRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Earth Gyro/Power Transducer US Patent Number 5,313,850 May 24, 1994 Inventors: Rodger Finvold and E. Humphrey Abstract: This specification describes a completely new and different concept, method, mechanization, apparatus configuration and sequencing procedure for obtaining commercially useful power, namely: the use of a gyroscope to generate output power from the earth's stored inertial rotational (flywheel) energy by fixing the housing of the gyroscope to the earth and using the rotation of the earth relative to the gyroscope's spatially stable rotor/gimbal assembly to rotate the input shaft(s) of a power transducer(s). This provides a power-output stroke over a near 180 degree precession excursion (near pole-to-pole alignment) until the rotor spin axis of the gyroscope is nearly aligned with the polar axis of the earth. Re-precession torques are then created on the inner gimbal within the gyroscope to re-orient the rotor spin axis vector direction by re-precessing the rotor spin by somewhat more than 180 degrees to the near polar alignment direction required for the resumption of power output in a manner requiring essentially zero energy and power to provide relatively continuous, but intermittent, power output generation along with a multi-unit assembly for producing continuous uninterrupted power output. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 22:10:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA05379; Mon, 5 May 1997 22:03:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 22:03:20 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970505220455.00a269a0 aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 22:04:58 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: FW: Electric Sports Car Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xwEn43.0.zJ1.NkhRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:14 PM 5/5/97 -0700, you wrote: > > ---------- >From: Scudder, Henry J. >To: Vortex-L >Subject: Electric Sports Car >Date: Friday, May 02, 1997 12:46PM > >Gnorts Vorts. >Is there anyone on the list in the Seattle area, who would be interested >in checking out an electric car for me? I live in LA, and don't get to >Seattle often. I am looking for an electric sport car to commute in. (If >they won't go very far, at least it should look sexy!). There is one >being offered for sale in Seattle, and I would like someone to drive it >a little, and report back to me about its mechanical condition, handling >etc., so I don't waste a couple of hundred dollars on airfare to look at >a piece of junk. > >Hank Scudder > > maybe Hank, how hot is the deal time - can I fit this in as on the run? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 23:14:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA11750; Mon, 5 May 1997 23:12:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 23:12:34 -0700 Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:12:33 +0200 (METDST) Message-Id: <199705060612.IAA04651 imaginet.fr> X-Sender: lentin mail2.imaginet.fr X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jean-Pierre Lentin Subject: Benveniste & water's memory Resent-Message-ID: <"oSWkG3.0.Tt2.HliRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote :=20 >Is Benveniste still trying to prove water has a homeopathic >memory? He hasn't been in the news much since his=20 >brief moment a decade ago Well, this might be a bit "off topic" for Vortex-l, but then perhaps not... There are some similarities with CF. And the everlasting mysteries of= H2O... Back in 1988, Jacques Benveniste, a mainstream scientist working for INSERM (the French NIH), had designed and sold worldwide a very sensitive allergy blood sample test. He was curious enough to try, on the suggestion of a young assistant, in tests with an extremely diluted antigen. The dilution was "homeopathic style" : so high that no molecule of the original substance can still be present. He was actually skeptical about homeopathy, and still is today. But to his surprise, the very high dilutions did show an allergic effect on the blood sample. The experience was replicated in at least 6 other labs. Benveniste theorized that water can hold an =AB memory= =BB of a substance it has been in contact with, under certain conditions. Effect is canceled by heating the water, and also by a strong magnetic field. Conclusion was the phenomenon is electromagnetic. After his publication in Nature, Benveniste was widely accused of error, fraud or "pathological science", a la Fleishmann...Eventually his lab was closed. (Among the few physicists who stood for him were Giuliano Preparata, now active in CF theory). Today he is still at INSERM, with a much smaller lab and some private fundings. Since 1992, he is pursuing research about the nature of this electromagnetic =AB signal =BB and its mode of transmission. He no= longer uses the dilution-in-water method and the blood sample test. He works directly with electromagnetic equipment, and tests of "irradiated water" are done on isolated guinea pigs hearts. Signal can be digitized and recorded on computer files. Since last year an American lab is replicating the tests, with signals files sent from Paris by e-mail attachments. Publication should follow in a few months. Ever an optimist, Benveniste will submit again to Nature and Science, but it seems highly doubtful that they'll accept it.=20 He is now well aware that he has turned, more or less serendipitously, to a new paradigm. Molecular/genetic biology is at a dead end, with no hope for cures on the big pathologies. He thinks "digital biology" will eventually replace "structural biology", and offer real health solutions. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jean-Pierre Lentin lentin imaginet.fr --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 23:23:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA13151; Mon, 5 May 1997 23:21:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 23:21:44 -0700 Message-ID: <336ECDA9.4E8B microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 15:50:25 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Simple OU Device] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5879BBC4364" Resent-Message-ID: <"N73K51.0.KD3.stiRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5879BBC4364 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax --------------5879BBC4364 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.eisa.net.au (root mail.eisa.net.au [203.63.152.11]) by orca.microtronics.com.au (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA16014 for ; Sun, 4 May 1997 12:36:07 +0930 (CST) Received: from ppp4-55.eisa.net.au (ppp4-55.eisa.net.au [210.8.16.55]) by mail.eisa.net.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA31926 for ; Sun, 4 May 1997 13:05:33 +1000 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 03:05:37 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <336af0a5.35300248 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <336A8CAD.2EC microtronics.com.au> In-Reply-To: <336A8CAD.2EC microtronics.com.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 03 May 1997 10:24:05 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: [snip] Greg, I may have missed a few replies, so just in case no one else has suggested it yet, why not simply raise the exit point till it is higher than the entry point? If energy is really being added in the black box, and the friction is sufficiently low, you should be able to achieve a situation where the ball will end up higher than its starting point. If you can also show that the ball is not attracted to the black box on a level track at the same starting distance, then you have a fairly strong indication that you have an OU effect. In fact you could probably run the ball around a curved track back to the starting point, so that it keeps on going by itself. Also as a way of reducing friction still further, you might like to replace most of the track sections outside the black box with "angle-iron" ( :-) aluminium. (Angle pointed down, ball rolling on two sharp edges). Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --------------5879BBC4364-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 23:26:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA13669; Mon, 5 May 1997 23:24:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 23:24:41 -0700 Message-ID: <336ECDC4.71A6 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 15:50:52 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Simple OU Device] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------AA34FFC15E7" Resent-Message-ID: <"Oo8qH2.0.NL3.ewiRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AA34FFC15E7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax --------------AA34FFC15E7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <336D1773.18EA microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 08:40:43 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: <336A8CAD.2EC microtronics.com.au> <336af0a5.35300248@mail.eisa.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > On Sat, 03 May 1997 10:24:05 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: > [snip] > Greg, > > I may have missed a few replies, so just in case no one else has > suggested it yet, why not simply raise the exit point till it is > higher than the entry point? If energy is really being added in the > black box, and the friction is sufficiently low, you should be able to > achieve a situation where the ball will end up higher than its > starting point. Haven't tried that. will give it a go. > If you can also show that the ball is not attracted to the black box > on a level track at the same starting distance, then you have a fairly > strong indication that you have an OU effect. With a stationary ball, attraction seems to start at about 40-50mm. Further away with a rolling ball. > In fact you could probably run the ball around a curved track back to > the starting point, so that it keeps on going by itself. Tried that, too much friction. Every tried to radius 12mm alum "U" channel? > Also as a way of reducing friction still further, you might like to > replace most of the track sections outside the black box with > "angle-iron" ( :-) aluminium. (Angle pointed down, ball rolling on two > sharp edges). The ball is 12mm dia, the alum "U" channel is 12mm wide, 10mm wide inside. The ball rolls on the inside edge of the "U" channel. Its fairly sharp. > Robin van Spaandonk Hi Robin, Will try the raised exit track idea. The only problem I can see is where to try it. Too close and magnetic drag back may effect the result (you can see it slow down the ball in the first 100mm or so), too far and not much energy left. But as a gut feel, I believe I could achieve at least 4-5mm. I have tested the required release height on the exit path of the "Black Box" (with the magnets removed) to achieve the same roll out distance and have found that drag back seems to kill about 75-80% of the energy. >From memory, I would say that the height was about 3-4mm above the release height on the release track. Will repeat the tests and post the results. I would like to forward this post. OK? -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax --------------AA34FFC15E7-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 5 23:36:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA14915; Mon, 5 May 1997 23:34:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 23:34:55 -0700 Message-ID: <336ED0C7.51C0 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 16:03:43 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: <336A8CAD.2EC microtronics.com.au> <336C2A3D.73F8@loc1.tandem.com> <336D1313.72FC@microtronics.com.au> <336EBC24.201A@loc1.tandem.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tBeBU1.0.se3.C4jRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bob Horst wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > > With all respect Bob, the test unit does exhibit OU. Several others > > have duplicated the device. What is left to do now is to work to fully > > understand what is going on and how to increase the energy gain and how > > to scale it up. > > Greg -- > > I do not doubt that your device is doing what you say it does and that others have replicated it. > I am just trying to think of other possible explanations. The air resistance idea was probably far > fetched, but I just thought of another possiblity. Rolling friction is proportional to the normal > force (weight) of the ball bearing. If your black box has magnets arranged in such a way that they > pull up on the ball, it reduces the rolling friction. Even if the magnets pull mostly to the side > of the track, the curve of the ball would tend to make it ride toward one rail, and to make it ride > higher in the track. Either effect would be sort of like a primative magnetic bearing. It would > not be too far fetched to think that this could reduce total friction by around half, letting it > roll 2.4 m instead of 1.1 m. You have probably already discounted this somehow, but I am curious > as to how you can be sure this is not the effect you are seeing. > > > > > I am working to develop a rotary unit which will deliver 1 watt of > > electrical power to a small bulb. > > > If you accomplish this, it should put all questions to rest. > > Good luck, > > -- Bob Hi Bob, The ball rolls slightly above the centre line of the magnets. This is done to increase the downward force vectors to help overcome unbalanced side to side attraction. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 6 00:13:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA19670; Tue, 6 May 1997 00:12:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 00:12:12 -0700 Message-ID: <336ED994.3D7F microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 16:41:16 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com Subject: Simple OU Device Tests Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-3JbW2.0.Gp4.BdjRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Thanks to Robin, I have revisited my linear model test setup. What I found was not what I wanted to find. I created a release ramp based on the idea of delivering the ball to the entry point of the "Black Box" at at zero energy or as close to it as I could get. What actually occured was the "Black Box" attracted the ball 100-150mm from the entry point (while the ball was still rolling). The ball at this point had some kinetic energy and the exit energy calcs (based on zero entry energy) were in error. I have now modified the test setup to a 75mm level entry track. The ball is placed on the end of the entry track and restrained from moving by a balsa stick. The stick is drawn upward and the ball is allowed to enter the "Black Box". The ball still exits the "Black Box", but stops about 600mm along the exit track. It is NOT drawn back! Further tesing is under way. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 6 04:31:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA20028; Tue, 6 May 1997 04:30:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 04:30:53 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Benveniste & water's memory Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 11:30:16 +0000 Message-ID: <19970506113014.AAA7583 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"j5zs03.0.su4.iPnRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jean-Pierre Lentin wrote: >Barry Merriman wrote : >>Is Benveniste still trying to prove water has a homeopathic >>memory? He hasn't been in the news much since his >>brief moment a decade ago The cochlear canal of the inner ear and it's use of the water-cell membrane-ion potentials in the hearing process is a great example of the "memory" of the water molecule. This can be attributed to the highly polar nature of the water molecule and it's sensitivity to electromagnetic fields or other disturbances. A simple device to demonstrate the effect of EM fields and acoustic-phonon disturbance on water is to put a thin coating of silver on both sides of a strip of plastic and immerse it in water. The self-polarization of the water molecules on the metallized film will show an electrostatic potential that can be *modulated* by acoustic (phonon) disturbances or EM fields or varied by adding ions or other molecules. Other sensory devices in biological systems use this mechanism as a "transducer" for detection of incredibly low levels of heat, sound, tactile input, etc. No pseudo-science here, just a fine print manifestation of the behavior of water. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 6 07:06:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA06633; Tue, 6 May 1997 07:04:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 07:04:42 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705060858.ZM7471 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:58:48 -0500 In-Reply-To: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) "Re: Minto Wheel" (May 5, 9:36pm) References: <336E9B6F.50CA gorge.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minto Wheel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"3uclx1.0.Vd1.wfpRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On May 5, 9:36pm, Tom Miller wrote: > I am not at all sure that o/u is possible. I don't think that is the point of this device at all. With the premise that the solor radiation is "free", you could argue the point, but technically will always be just energy conversion expressed in degrees of efficiency. > 6. A possible variation would be tanks of gas, or even air, connected > a large pipe. The pipe would contain a lead weight, as a free piston, > which would be moved by the gas, instead of a working liquid moving. > the pipe could be straight, (through the axle) or slightly curved, > (around the axle). Why add the unnecessary complexity and mechanical wear? The beauty of this setup is that it is simple. -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 6 07:59:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA16700; Tue, 6 May 1997 07:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 07:52:51 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:51:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970506105129_-399610676 emout19.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Help about : Earth-Gyro Power Transducer Patent Resent-Message-ID: <"uzPUZ2.0.s44.1NqRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 06/05/1997 05:06:37 , you wrote : << Suj : Earth-Gyro Power Transducer Date : 06/05/1997 05:06:37 From: robert skylink.net (Robert Stirniman) Earth Gyro/Power Transducer US Patent Number 5,313,850 May 24, 1994 Inventors: Rodger Finvold and E. Humphrey >> Hi All, Does someone has been able to download this patent at : http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5313850 The graphics file of this patent at IBM site seems corrupted ( ?? ), I would be very grateful, If someone would sent this file to me... Thanks, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 6 08:13:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA16601; Tue, 6 May 1997 08:06:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:06:26 -0700 Message-ID: <336F4914.1A0F interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 11:07:00 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Tests References: <336ED994.3D7F microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"50lm92.0.J34.nZqRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > Hi All, > > Thanks to Robin, I have revisited my linear model test setup. What I > found was not what I wanted to find. > Hey, Greg, how are you calculating the kinetic energy of the ball. I assume you are using: linear kinetic energy = 1/2*M*V^2 . Then, the rotational (angular) kinetic energy is: angular KE = ((M*R^2)/5) * omega^2 where: M = mass of ball V = linear velocity of ball R = radius of ball omega = angular velocity in radians/second. Since the ball is rolling in a U-channel track, the "rolling radius" of the ball is the vertical distance from the center of the ball to the contact points on the track. Call "r" the rolling radius, then omega is related to the linear velocity, V, by: omega = V/r radians per second (with compatible units!). Note that the part of the ball below the contact point actually moves backward in the track. The important factor here is that if the track width is not precise, there will be an exchange between linear and angular momentum as the rolling radius, r, varies. With a perfect ball on a perfect track, this should not be important. These nit-picky details will have an effect if you try to combine the gravitational energy of any elevated ramps with the ball's TOTAL kinetic energy. Are any of these points useful? With interest ------ Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 6 10:40:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA08030; Tue, 6 May 1997 10:27:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:27:48 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 09:33:02 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"5MLnn1.0.Mz1.IesRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Bob Horst wrote: >> >> Greg Watson wrote: >> > >> > With all respect Bob, the test unit does exhibit OU. Several others >> > have duplicated the device. What is left to do now is to work to fully >> > understand what is going on and how to increase the energy gain and how >> > to scale it up. >> >> Greg -- >> >> I do not doubt that your device is doing what you say it does and that >>others have replicated it. [snip] I don't doubt it either, but so far there is no indication of ou, only gravity and magnetic potential wells acting together. I'd like to hear from the replicators. Why aren't they posting? Come on replicators, let's not be sheepish! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 6 10:57:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA12004; Tue, 6 May 1997 10:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BC5A0A.62BD57C0 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Simple OU Device Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:43:49 -0700 Encoding: 18 TEXT, 40 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"QHjWq3.0.Px2.PvsRp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Hefner wrote: >I don't doubt it either, but so far there is no indication of ou, only )\^(C,1`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0! `(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! M. $````"`?8/`0````0````````",#,!!( !`!4```!213H@4VEM<&QE($]5 M($1E=FEC90"/! $%@ ,`#@```,T'!0`&``H`*P`Q``(`1P$!(( #``X```#- M!P4`! `*`" `%@`"`"$!`0F `0`A````1C%"-4(U,CDR-D,V1# Q,4(W,3

"(#``<0T0$``!X` M"! !````90```$A/4D%#14A%1DY%4E=23U1%.DE$3TY41$]50E1)5$5)5$A% M4BQ"55133T9!4E1(15)%25-.3TE.1$E#051)3TY/1D]5+$].3%D\1U)!5DE4 M64%.1$U!1TY%5$E#4$]414Y424$`````` $)$ $```#A`@``W0(```P%``!, M6D9UXUV="_\`" $/`A4"I /D!>L"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K M$ W ;MD$D"!W`V 50#H*CPN1[Q=B# $4P!\A8P5 'V<='T8^("\A-$D 9 (@ M)U,%0"30=6(%0&D%0&6#)9 6D'(L(&)U!4#P(>< 0`#"!N)I + M &1I8V%$=&D"("!O9BA0=;,F( (@;'DAGQV7/"-/DR$T"2 `<#1D M( # 9Q[ *!!C(/YP'R$", `U*])N( &4 +4"?B!;!S+W'\5V@LD1E M)/(EX2R0+8#[%3 NL3\O A0!X HP31*Y28@;!(`)W,PKS&_()[K)X %0&(> M<',6D#1 ! #$:"$O@#A>*3A](*2S(8\=B$]+)B `D&X>899Y"& LH',P`&0N M01#_'V\=3"^ ,_ [DC8U+. %L.$T,G-U;'0$(#O0)_#^=1'P,% L4#63$< L MT" 0_S;Q,#$-L"WR)=$E@@(0!<#J81[P: ,092]P-3 G$K\DL#@@`8 H42AP M)U%J14!;!4!'T',`P!:Q=0,`=/U%069$L"]P0P!P)0$1\.\54# B+Q$LH7E'\"<2'L"?)L0OT4D!)> H M`"!'&4#;+M LLDL)\ 8`;4 To: John Steck Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minto Wheel In-Reply-To: <9705051654.ZM4219 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"zHDOV1.0.RE3.v5tRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 5 May 1997, John Steck wrote: > On May 5, 3:31pm, Peter Jason Aldo wrote: > > > .....if the Minto wheel is operated as an > > insulated, closed system with a heat pump, that it is not a heat engine > > but a gravity engine using temperture phase changes to cause the wheel to > > always be heavier on top????? > > Good question, but I think it would still be a heat engine. Gravity is only a > reactive effect to the phase change and relocation of the medium. This device > uses one to exploit the other, closed or open cycle. > > John, What I was thinking was that when the liquid in the lower chamber is heated and vaporized, energy is being used, however, when the vapor condenses, it gives up energy in the form of heat. This same heat energy is then pumped to the lower chamber to complete the cycle. In this way, energy is being moved around, but not expended. Maybe there's something I'm missing. > > > > Pete Aldo > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 6 13:00:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA03682; Tue, 6 May 1997 12:53:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 12:53:51 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 15:52:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970506155158_1189505226 emout19.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: bshannon tiac.net Subject: Update about : The David Hamel Scalar Generator Resent-Message-ID: <"idQIV1.0.Jv.CnuRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I have updated "The David Hamel Scalar Generator" with new schemes and some details about the magnet polarity. You will find these informations at : http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/hamscgen.htm I hope that this information will interest you, Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 6 13:47:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA12377; Tue, 6 May 1997 13:37:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:37:31 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705061531.ZM9097 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 15:31:30 -0500 In-Reply-To: Peter Jason Aldo "Re: Minto Wheel" (May 6, 12:55pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minto Wheel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"TLx-02.0.I13.AQvRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: (Peter, no need to cc: my address if you post to vortex.) On May 6, 12:55pm, Peter Jason Aldo wrote: > What I was thinking was that when the liquid in the lower > chamber is heated and vaporized, energy is being used, however, when > the vapor condenses, it gives up energy in the form of heat. This same > heat energy is then pumped to the lower chamber to complete the cycle. In > this way, energy is being moved around, but not expended. Maybe there's > something I'm missing. You've forgotten to account for loses in the transfer. Devices like the Minto wheel live or die by their attainable degrees of efficiency. -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 6 14:32:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA23658; Tue, 6 May 1997 14:26:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 14:26:43 -0700 Message-ID: <336FA1DF.3930 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 06:55:51 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Help about : Earth-Gyro Power Transducer Patent References: <970506105129_-399610676 emout19.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YH5tq.0.an5.H8wRp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > > On 06/05/1997 05:06:37 , you wrote : > > << Suj : Earth-Gyro Power Transducer > Date : 06/05/1997 05:06:37 > From: robert skylink.net (Robert Stirniman) > Earth Gyro/Power Transducer > US Patent Number 5,313,850 May 24, 1994 > Inventors: Rodger Finvold and E. Humphrey > >> > > Hi All, > > Does someone has been able to download this patent at : > > http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5313850 > > The graphics file of this patent at IBM site seems corrupted ( ?? ), I would > be very grateful, If someone would sent this file to me... > > Thanks, > > Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Hi Jean-Louis, Just hangs for me. Looks interesting though! -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 6 19:01:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA28456; Tue, 6 May 1997 18:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970506185714.00a646c4 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 18:57:16 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"LVd9Z3.0.Xy6.S6-Rp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Most of the data between the replicators is exchanged on Greg's private mailing list. I would gladly share the details with you if it is OK with Greg (...or perhaps he could copy you with the email exchanges from the list's log...) For myself I can say that I have replicated Greg's lift with an 8" ramp (NdFeB) to a height of 2" with NO kinetic energy input. Furthermore I can vouch that Greg's setup doesn't suffer from the imperceivable "entrance pumping" like the TOMI device did. I have constructed 2 identical ramps yet I was unable to close the loop. The possibility of an egineering error on my part still remains. The only possible flaw with this device is the POSSIBILITY that the energy lost during the back attraction (ie. force integrated over distance) is equal to the work done by the forward attraction like the conventional theory predicts. I am unable to prove/disprove this mathematically since it is beyond my ability to come up with an equation of mechanical attraction VS. distance from a N-S magnetic gap (no it is not 1/d^3 like with a single magnetic dipole !!!). Perhaps one of you can help ? Another good question to consider is whether moving a ferromagnetic from 500 to 2000 gauss will always take the same amount of work independently of the force VS. distance distribution (a.k.a. F-d phase) ??? The is definitively false in the voltage VS. current analogy. PS. I am sorry Horace will have to suffer from reading this hopeless EM OU stuff... At 09:33 AM 5/6/97 -0800, you wrote: > >I don't doubt it either, but so far there is no indication of ou, only >gravity and magnetic potential wells acting together. I'd like to hear >from the replicators. Why aren't they posting? Come on replicators, let's >not be sheepish! 8^) > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 6 21:09:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA12130; Tue, 6 May 1997 21:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 21:00:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Benveniste & water's memory Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 03:59:39 +0000 Message-ID: <19970507035937.AAA1279 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"A_hnR3.0.Oz2.qv_Rp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex: Jean-Pierre, I wrote earlier: >A simple device to demonstrate the effect of EM fields and >acoustic-phonon disturbance on water is to put a thin coating >of silver on both sides of a strip of plastic and immerse it in >water. A simpler off-the-shelf device to do this with, is a ceramic "disk" capacitor that is waterproofed (if needed) by coating it with fingernail polish or such. This also makes a very sensitive "Hydrophone" when used with suitable electronic circuitry. With the selection of ceramic disk capacitors that is available, one can choose the impedance and bandwidth to suit the requirements of frequency response and sensitivity. This device was given some consideration by some marine biology researchers that are looking to measure and monitor the electric fields that some aquatic creatures use for communication and detecting prey. For instance some sharks can detect the electric fields from a person standing in water at distances of about a mile, or, catfish can use their barbels for touch or smell as well as sensing the electric field signature of their prey. I'm partial to the duck-billed platypus and it's ability to use the sensor in it's bill to detect the electric field of clams buried in the sediment of waters. Never pays for lunch, puts it on his bill. :-) Amazing compound, isn't it? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 6 23:51:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA05240; Tue, 6 May 1997 23:49:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 23:49:48 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 02:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970507024905_-433063324 emout10.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: fepps mail1.halcyon.com Subject: Re : Help about : Earth-Gyro Power Transducer Patent Resent-Message-ID: <"11O6Z3.0.jH1.AO2Sp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 06/05/1997 22:36:47 , I wrote : << Hi All, Does someone has been able to download this patent at : http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5313850 The graphics file of this patent at IBM site seems corrupted ( ?? ), I would be very grateful, If someone would sent this file to me... >> Hi All, Today, I have been able to download this patent, the IBM patent server work fine again. It is a very interesting patent, and I suggest you to read it..... Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5313850 : Earth/gyro power transducer ------------------------------------------------------------------------ INVENTORS:Finvold; Rodger C., San Diego, CA 921176 ABSTRACT: This specification describes a completely new and different concept, method, mechanization, apparatus configuration and sequencing procedure for obtaining commercially useful energy and power, namely: the use of a gyroscope to generate output power from the earth's stored inertial rotational (flywheel) energy by fixing the housing of the gyroscope to the earth and using the rotation of the earth relative to the gyroscope's spatially stable rotor/gimbal assembly to rotate the input shaft(s) of a power transducer(s). This provides a power-output stroke over a near 180o precession excursion (near pole-to-pole alignment) until the rotor spin axis of the gyroscope is nearly aligned with the polar axis of the earth. Re-precession torques are then created on the inner gimbal within the gyroscope to re-orient the rotor spin axis vector direction by re-precessing the rotor spin by somewhat more than 180o to the near polar alignment direction required for the resumption of power output in a manner requiring essentially zero energy and power to provide relatively continuous, but intermittent, power output generation along with a multi-unit assembly for producing continuous uninterrupted power output. An "Advanced Concept" based on rate gyro characteristics showing promise of enhanced performance is included. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 7 00:01:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA06506; Tue, 6 May 1997 23:59:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 23:59:49 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 02:59:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970507025914_-531762223 emout14.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: blacklightpower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3shCQ3.0.ab1.aX2Sp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Original filename was DIRECT9.PDF >From BlackLightPower website. Note: It's really hard (impossible) to reproduce mathametical expressions in ASCII so in the case where I couldn't, I have used the symbol <*>. If you are into all the heavy stuff you're gonna have to download the files from the BlackLightPower website. To do this you need Acrobat Reader 3.0 (tm) software. It's free from ADOBE. I'm running Windows 3.1 and it's about a 4.5 meg download. A .exe file will download, then you run it and after the usual questions are answered, it installs on your system. For me, a PC dummy, it wasn't too bad of an install. There are links on the BlackLightPower webpage to Adobe. Not bad at all. The real bitch was converting the .PDF files to Windows Write format but thats another story I wont bore you with. Sorry for any typos I must have missed. I am not in any way associated with BlackLightPower Inc. (but I wish I was!) Enjoy, Vince DETAIL ON TECHNOLOGY AND REPRESENTATIVE TECHNICAL SUPPORT — PART 3 Continued from Previous file Example 9. Phillips et.al., of the Pennsylvania State University Chemical Engineering Department has determined excess heat release from flowing hydrogen in the presence of ionic hydrogen spillover catalytic material: 40% by weight potassium nitrate (KNO3) on graphitic carbon powder with 5% by weight 1%-Pd-on-graphitic carbon (K+/K+ electrocatalytic couple) by the very accurate and reliable method of heat measurement, thermopile conversion of heat into an electrical output signal [41]. Excess power and heat were observed with flowing hydrogen over the catalyst. However, no excess power was observed with flowing helium over the catalyst mixture. Rates of heat production were reproducibly observed which were higher than that expected from the conversion of all the hydrogen entering the cell to water, and the total energy observed was over four times larger than that expected if all the catalytic material in the cell were converted to the lowest energy state by "known" chemical reactions. Thus, "anomalous" heat, heat of a magnitude and duration which could not be explained by conventional chemistry, was reproducibly observed. See Exhibit #29 [41]. Example 10. The Company and other reputable laboratories have identified lower-energy hydrogen by multiple methods. In a new article to be submitted to Physical Review [46], the Company reports the detection of atomic hydrogen in fractional quantum energy levels below the traditional "ground state". "hydrinos" by X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy, by the assignment of soft X-ray emissions from the interstellar medium, the Sun, and stellar flares, and by assignment of certain lines obtained by the far-infrared absolute spectrometer (FIRAS) on the Cosmic Background Explorer. Hydrino formation occurs by catalytic transition reactions with the release of energy on the ionic hydrogen spillover catalytic material: 40% by weight potassium nitrate (KNO3) on graphitic carbon powder with 5% by weight 1%-Pd-on- graphitic carbon and in the gas phase with a volatilized transition catalyst, K+/K+. We also report the detection of a new molecular species--the diatomic hydrino molecule--by mass spectroscopy, gas chromatography, and the assignment of certain infrared line emissions from the Sun. Excess heat release was determined from flowing hydrogen in the presence of ionic hydrogen spillover catalytic material: 40% by weight potassium nitrate (KNO3) on graphitic carbon powder with 5% by weight 1%-Pd-on-graphitic carbon by the very accurate and reliable method of heat measurement, thermopile conversion of heat into an electrical output signal--Calvet Calorimetry. An excess power of 0.34 W was observed from the 20 cc stain-less steel vacuum vessel with flowing hydrogen over the 15 cc of catalyst. However, no excess power was observed with flowing helium over the catalyst mixture. Rates of heat production were reproducibly observed which were higher than that expected from the conversion of all the hydrogen entering the cell to water, and the total energy observed was over four times larger than that expected if all the catalytic material in the cell were converted to the lowest energy state by "known" chemical reactions. Thus,"anomalous" heat, heat of a magnitude and duration which could not be explained by conventional chemistry, was reproducibly observed. Excess heat from a gas energy cell having a gaseous source of energy holes has been observed by HydroCatalysis Power Corporation [46] with low pressure hydrogen in the presence of potassium nitrate (KNO3) (K+/K+ electrocatalytic couple) which was volatilized at the operating temperature of the cell, 280 °C. The instrument used to measure the heat of reaction comprised an isothermal calorimeter. The vessel was maintained at a constant operating temperature by a time proportion controller feedback loop that activated a cartridge heater to match the thermal losses of the cell. The power dissipated by the cartridge heater was reduced in the case that an additional source of heat was supplied. The sources included power dissipated in a hot tungsten filament and power generated by the transition reaction as hydrogen atoms were generated by the filament. The tungsten filament to dissociate molecular hydrogen was operated at various constant values of dissipated power where the amount of hydrogen molecules dissociated to hydrogen atoms was proportional to the dissipated power. Thus, with sufficient input power to the filament, these two sources matched that necessary to maintain the vessel at constant temperature, and the cartridge heater was no longer activated. The difference in the power dissipated in the cartridge heater as compared to the filament was the measure of the excess power generated by the transition reaction. The filament power was incrementally increased by 5 watts whenever the cartridge heater was activated by the controller. When 41 watts was dissipated in the filament, the cartridge heater power was zero; whereas, 90 watts of cartridge heater was required to maintain the vessel at in the absence of power dissipated by the filament. Thus, excess power of up to 49 watts was observed from the 2.5 liter stainless steel reaction vessel containing less than 3 g of KNO3 when the hydrogen pressure was 2 torr and the tungsten filament hot (=2000 K). This power continued in duration for 45 hours. Rates of heat production were reproducibly observed which were much higher than that expected from the conversion of all the hydrogen inside the cell to water and much higher than that expected if all the catalytic material in the cell were converted to the lowest energy state by "known" chemical reactions. Thus, "anomalous" heat, heat of a magnitude and duration which could not be explained by conventional chemistry, was reproducibly observed with the calorimeter. The experimental identification of hydrogen atoms in fractional quantum energy levels--hydrinos--by X-ray Photoelectron Spectroscopy (XPS) was performed with a carbon cathode from an electrolytic cell having a transition catalyst electrolyte. A series of XPS analyses were made on carbon cathodes used in electrolysis of aqueous potassium carbonate by the Zettlemoyer Center for Surface Studies, Sinclair Laboratory, Lehigh University. Peaks were observed at 54.4eV, 122.4eV and 217.6eV. The XPS results were consistent with the assignment of the peaks to H(n=1/2), H(n=1/3), and H(n=1/4), respectively, whereby the predicted binding energies matched those of the observed peaks. Hydrinos were identified by emissions of soft x-rays from the dark interstellar medium and the Sun and by spin/nuclear hyperfine structure transition energies obtained by COBE for which no other satisfactory assignment exists. Dihydrino molecules were identified by emissions of infrared lines from the Sun. The assignments provide a resolution to the Solar Neutrino Problem, the Temperature of the Solar Corona Problem, the Broadening of the Hydrogen 911.8 Å Line Problem, the Temperature of the Transition from "Radiation Zone" to "Convection Zone" Problem, and the Solar Flare Problem. In summary: As shown in Table V.1 of Mills [46], hydrogen transitions to electronic energy levels below the "ground" state corresponding to fractional quantum numbers predicted by Mills’ theory match the spectral lines of the extreme ultraviolet background of interstellar space. And, hydrogen disproportionation reactions yield ionized hydrogen, energetic electrons, and hydrogen ionizing radiation. This assignment resolves the paradox of the identity of dark matter and accounts for many celestial observations such as: diffuse Ha emission is ubiquitous throughout the Galaxy, and widespread sources of flux shortward of 912A are required [5]. Further experimental identification of hydrinos--down to H(n =1/8)--can be found in the alternative explanation by Mills for the soft X-ray emissions of the dark interstellar medium observed by Labov and Bowyer [5] of the Extreme UV Center of the University of California, Berkeley. The agree- ment between the experimental spectrum and the energy values predicted for the proposed transitions is remarkable. The paradox of the paucity of solar neutrinos to account for the solar energy output by the p-p chain is resolved by assigning a major portion of the solar output to lower- energy hydrogen transitions. The photosphere of the Sun is 6000K; whereas, the temperature of the corona based on the assignment of the emitted X-rays to highly ionized heavy elements is in excess of 10**6K. No satisfactory power transfer mechanism is known which explains the excessive temperature of the corona relative to that of the pho- tosphere. The paradox is resolved by the existence of a power source associated with the corona. The energy which maintains the corona at a temperature in excess of is that released by disproportionation reactions of lower-energy hydrogen. In Table V.2 of Mills [46], the energy released by the transition of the hydrino atom with the initial lower-energy state quantum number p and radius <*> to the state with lower-energy state quantum number <*> and radius <*> catalyzed by a hydrino atom with the initial lower-energy state quantum number <*>, initial radius <*>, and final radius <*> are given in consecutive order of energy from the 1->1/2 H transition to the 1/9->1/10 H transition. The agreement between the calculated and the experimental val- ues is remarkable. Furthermore, many of the lines of Table V.2 had no previous assignment, or the assignment was unsatisfactory [32-35]. The calculated power of <*> matches the observed power output of <*>. The broadening of the solar HI911.8Å line (911.8Å to=600 Å) (as observed by Skylab (Harvard College Observatory spectrometer) is six times that predicted based on the thermal electron energy at the surface of the photosphere (T=6000K) where the HI911.8 Å continuum originates, and based on the relative width of the helium continuum lines, He I 504.3 Å (He I 504.3 Å to=530 Å) and He II 227.9 Å (He II 227. 9 Å to=225 Å) The latter lines are proportionally much narrower; yet, the corresponding temperatures of origin must be higher because the transitions are more energetic. Furthermore, the H911.8A continuum line of the spectrum of a prominence is about one half the width of the same line of the quiet Sun spectrum. Yet, the temperature rises to greater than 10000K in a prominence. The problem of the anomalous spectral feature of the excessive broadening of the continuum line of hydrogen to higher energies can be resolved by assignment of the broadening mechanism to energetic disproportionation reactions involving hydrogen atoms as reactants. The reaction product, lower-energy hydrogen, can be reionized as it diffuses towards the center of the Sun. The abrupt change in the speed of sound and transition from "radiation zone" to "convection zone" at a radius of 0.7 the solar radius,0.7Rs, with a temperature of 2x10**6 matches the ionization temperature of lower-energy hydrogen. Further stellar evidence from ROSAT of disproportionation reactions of lower-energy hydrogen atoms is the emission of extreme ultraviolet radiation by young stars called A stars. They appear to have energetic, ultraviolet-emitting upper atmospheres, or coronas, even though astronomers believe such stars lack the ability to heat these regions. Numerous late-type stars, particularly dM stars, are known to flare from time to time at visible and X-ray wavelengths. An extremely pronounced flare was observed by the Extreme Ultraviolet Explorer (EUVE) Deep Survey telescope on the star AU Microscopii at a count of 20 times greater than that at quiescence [37]. Emission lines in the extreme ultravio- let were observed for which there is no satisfactory assignment. These spectral lines match hydrogen transitions to electronic energy levels below the "ground" state corresponding to fractional quantum numbers as shown in Table V.3 of Mills [46]. The lines assigned to lower-energy hydrogen transitions increased significantly in intensity during the flare event. The data is consistent with disproportionation reactions of lower-energy hydrogen as the mechanism of solar flare activity. The spin/nuclear hyperfine structure transition energies of lower-energy hydrogen match closely certain spectral lines obtained by the far-infrared absolute spectrometer (FIRAS) on the Cosmic Background Explorer (COBE) [39-40] for which no other satisfactory assignment exists. The rotational transition energies of lower-energy molecular hydrogen match closely certain spectral lines obtained by Livingston and Wallace [42] using the 1-m Fourier Transform Spectrometer at the McMath telescope on Kitt peak for which no other satisfactory assignment exists. Similar obser- vations of spectral lines for which no other satisfactory assignment exists were obtained by Brault et al. at Kitt Peak National Observatory [43], M.Migeotte made at Jungfraujoch International Scientific Station of Switzerland [44], and Cohen [45] recorded on Skylab with the NRL’s Apollo Telescope. The experimental identification of hydrogen molecules in fractional quantum energy levels--dihydrino molecules--by mass spectroscopy was performed with samples from a gas phase transition reaction vessel and from a hollow cathode. The Calvet calorimeter was modified to record the excess energy from the transition reaction using potassium ions and hydrogen atoms in the gas phase. Excess heat from the gas energy cell having a gaseous transition catalyst (K + /K + ) was observed with low pressure hydrogen in the presence of potassium nitrate (KNO3) which was volatilized at the operating temperature of the cell, 250 0 C. Excess power of 0.3 watts was observed from the 20 cc stainless steel reaction vessel containing less than 1g of KNO3 when hydrogen was flowed over the hot tungsten filament(T=2000K) that dissociated the hydrogen to atoms. However, no excess power was observed when helium was flowed over the hot tungsten filament or when hydrogen was flowed over the hot tungsten filament with no KNO3 present in the cell. Rates of heat production were reproducibly observed which were higher than that expected from the conversion of all the hydrogen inside the cell to water, and the total energy observed was over 100 times larger than that expected if all the catalytic material in the cell were converted to the lowest energy state by "known" chemical reactions. Thus,"anomalous" heat, heat of a magnitude and duration which could not be explained by conventional chemistry, was reproducibly observed with the Calvet calorimeter. The Calvet calorimeter was connected on-line to a mass spectrometer. Mass spectra of gasses from the Calvet cell were recorded over time while the ionization energy was varied between 30 eV and 70 eV for the heat producing experiment and a control that was identical except that the catalyst was absent. Hydrogen gas was also collected in an evacuated hollow nickel cathode of an aqueous potassium carbonate electrolytic cell and an aqueous sodium carbonate electrolytic cell. Each cathode was sealed at one end and was on-line to the mass spectrometer at the other end. Mass spectra of gases per-meant to a nickel tubing cathode sealed at one end and on-line to the mass spectrometer at the other were taken for potassium carbonate electrolysis cells and sodium carbonate electrolysis cells. The intensity of the m/e = 1 and m/e = 2 peaks were recorded while varying the ionization potential (IP) of the mass spectrometer. In both the Calvet and hollow cathode cases, the pressure of the sample gas in the mass spectrometer was kept the same for each experiment by adjusting the needle value (valve?)of the mass spectrometer. The entire range of masses through m/e = 200 was measured following the determinations at m/e = 1 and m/e = 2. For the control, the signal intensity was essentially constant with IP. Whereas, in the case of the gasses from the power generating cell with catalyst, the m/e=2 signal increased significantly when the ionization energy was increased from 30 eV to 70 eV. A species with a much higher ionization potential than molecular hydrogen, somewhere between 30-70 eV, was present. Systematic scans while varying the IP showed that the onset of the ionization of this species was at 63 eV. The higher ionizing mass two species was assigned to the dihydrino molecule, . The experimental identification of hydrogen molecules in fractional quantum energy levels-dihydrino molecules-by gas chromatography at cryogenic temperatures to discriminate <*> from <*> was performed with samples of normal hydrogen chemically generated by adding aluminum chips to NaOH and of lower-energy hydrogen molecules were generated insitu via a gas cell comprising a source of hydrogen atoms and transition catalyst, (K+/K+) in the gas phase. The source of potassium ions and hydrogen atoms in the gas phase was out-gassing from a 0.5 mm diameter nickel wire from a potassium carbonate electrolytic cell that was heated to about 800 °C. The heating was performed in an evacuated quartz chamber by passing a current through the cathode. Samples were taken and analyzed by gas chromatography. Gas released from the heated wire was collected with a 500 ul gas tight syringe through the installed septum port and immediately injected into the gas chromatograph. The results indicate that a new form of hydrogen molecule was detected based on the presence of peaks with migration times comparable but distinctly different from those of the normal hydrogen peaks. See Exhibit #30 [46] Example 11. Phillips et.al., of the Pennsylvania State University Chemical Engineering Department has determined heat production associated with hydrino formation with a Calvet calorimeter which yielded exceptional results [47]. Specifically, the results are completely consistent with Mills hydrino formation hypothesis. In three separate trials, between 10 and 20 K Joules were generated at a rate of 0.5 Watts, upon admission of approximately 10**-3 moles of hydrogen to the 20 cm3 Calvet cell containing a heated platinum filament and KNO3 powder. This is equivalent to the generation of 10**7J/mole of hydrogen, as compared to 2.5x10**5 J/mole of hydrogen anticipated for standard hydrogen combustion. Thus, the total heats generated appear to be 100 times too large to be explained by conventional chemistry, but the results are completely consistent with Mills model. See Exhibit #31 [47]. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 7 04:49:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA17607; Wed, 7 May 1997 04:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 04:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 11:46:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Rejoice, rejoice! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"7KUny1.0.1J4.Sk6Sp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo, Gotta go. I'm 'unsubcribing' for a while because I'm hardly in to read the email. You know my email direct, so if you want to contact me, go ahead. I'm saving money to look after my patent and then finally do experiments. Keep at it you ol' devils! Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 7 07:44:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA01499; Wed, 7 May 1997 07:39:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 07:39:38 -0700 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.251.148 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:39:28 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Conservation of magnetic energy Resent-Message-ID: <"AT5uT.0.FN.fG9Sp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A number of you have asked about the conservation of energy in the case of time varing magnetic permeability. The first step in this analysis is very simple and I will repeat my original posting below. The conservation of energy derivation for the electromagnetic field may be taken out of any standard text such as Jackson. Inspection of the energy source term for magnetic interactions shows that it is not zero when the magnetic permeability changes in time. Two more steps required are: 1. Show that the energy source term is not zero when integrated in time through a complete cycle. 2. Show that any excess energy that may be obtained in this manner is or is not consistant with the second law of thermodynamics. I have done step 1 and have found some general conditions in which an excess energy may be obtained. Step 2 requires considerable work and I have no difinitive results here. The process of exchanging heat and magnetic energy is well known and this non-zero energy source term is expected. A good example of this effect is the paramagnetic heat pumps that are used to obtain very low temperatures in liquid helium or hydrogen work. All known magnetic heat pumps are consistant with the second law and I think it would be best to avoid this aspect of the analysis. To avoid any question of compliance with the second law one may look only at systems that have all the components at about the same temperature. Then the sustem would not be acting as a heat pump. I think that covers all of the magnetic OU devices that have been discussed in this forum and for these devices only step 1 is required. Below is my orginal posting: Magnets can do work and this work would be done at the expense of thermal energy in the magnet. The magnet doing work should cool off and the heat exchanged is supposed to be done in accord with the second law of thermodynamics although the proof of this property is not well established. In the energy conservation equation the energy source density, S, for magnetic interactions is given by: S = H dot (dB / dt) - B dot (dH / dt) where the constant of proportionality is being ignored and we are only looking for a non-zero result. If the usual relation B = Mu H where Mu is the magnetic permeability then we have S = H dot H (dMu / dt) Thus we see if Mu is constant (the linear region) then there is zero energy source density. In the case of non-linear response and non-isotropic Mu then it may be possible to obtain a non-zero value of S when integrated in time through a complete cycle. Inside a permanent magnet we would have B = B0 + Mu H where B0 is the term from the permanent magnetization. Including the B0 term in S gives: S = H dot H (dMu / dt) - B0 dot (dH / dt) the last term would cancel out around a closed cycle and so we are left with the same form for S. However, I would guess that the presence of a permanent magnetization causes Mu to be non-isotropic and then there would be the possibility of a net energy production when integrated over a closed cycle. The question of the work done being consistant with the second law or not needs to be answered. The operation of magnetic heat pumps is well known and they have always been observed to be consistant with the second law. The thing to look for here is any heating or cooling of the magnets and any exchange of heat between the magnets and the ambient heat sink. If there is none of this going on then second law considerations may be ignored and any energy produced may be assumed to be free. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 7 09:45:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA21300; Wed, 7 May 1997 09:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 09:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970507163903.00689c88 atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 12:39:03 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Re: blacklightpower Resent-Message-ID: <"rBCFH.0.SC5.R1BSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince (VCockeram aol.com) writes: >Original filename was DIRECT9.PDF >From BlackLightPower website. [lengthy quotes of experimental evidence, and astronomical evidence, in support of Mills' hydrino theory] When I first heard of Mills' below-ground-state theory several years ago, it sounded too different to be worth much attention. Thus, in my ignorance, I rejected his theory claims. However, maybe Mills is right -- or mostly right -- with regard to his outlandish theory of lower energy states for hydrogen. Part of the reason, IMO, that most people reject his theory at the outset is because the standard terminology "ground state" a priori defines his theory as bunk. But this is just current terminology that can change as needed. If Mills proves to be right, then I'm sure the physics community will make modifications to his current theoretical framework as needed, since only the math that matches observation needs to be retained, and it may have different forms. Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 7 14:44:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA01119; Wed, 7 May 1997 14:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 14:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3370F509.1238 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 17:32:57 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: AN ERG SAVED IS AN ERG OU! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"D-jlX2.0.OH.7KFSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In 1972-1973 at NASA-Lewis we were working on jobs relating to electric cars, etc. We were, of course, interested in the "road load" of highway vehicles because batteries were/are poor energy substitutes for HC fuels burning in (free air). At highway speeds, over half the propulsion power is used to overcome air drag. I have an old paper that gives the aerodynamic drag horsepower as: HP = (CD x A x V^3)/146625 horsepower (unit THIS, metric!) So, for a CD (drag coef.) = 0.5 - sort of a cross between a modern sedan and a pickup truck? - frontal area of 20 ft^2 (A), and a speed of 70 mph (V), we get: HP = (0.5 x 20 x 70^3)/146625 = 23.4 horsepower At constant speed, this is way over half the total horsepower. Now, my great idea was this - if we insist on driving practical cars (blunt fronts, but worse, pickup backends) with CD's of 0.5 how about placing an efficient ram-air turbine in front of the vehicle??? At this point my bosses would usually say "Wait a minute, Frank, we need another cup of coffee." Then they would leave the room and not find their way back. But wait!, said I, if we are going to jam our vehicles thru the interstate air and convert 23 horsepower to heat in said air, why not run behind a small windmill and let it decelerate the air and convert the energy to shaft work at, say, 0.85 efficiency and use the output to drive loads on the car or use it to offset the road load. My logic was that our cars and trucks are such high-drag shapes anyway that it won't hurt to mount a small windmill in front - even if we did'nt use the mill power, we wouldn't be much worse off than we are now! But, gee, we could at least use it to run the airconditioner! The engineering behind the idea is that an efficient air turbine has a wake of air moving slower than the initial ram-air, so, a body in its wake will have a lower drag than without the turbine. We note that if you drive a car with a CD of 0.05 - then, forget it - my front-running turbine can't help anything that's already that good. So, if you see a "thing" running down the highway that looks like a giant runaway propeller beanie, you'll know it's just Stenger testing his ram-air turbine! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 7 18:23:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA29126; Wed, 7 May 1997 18:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <337129F6.6227 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 10:48:46 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Simple OU Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8W9dB2.0.w67.1gISp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps or curved return tracks to close the loop. I have tried various schemes without success. What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between the magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side ways attractions very quickly. Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail. The ball must stay on the "Neutral Line". -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 7 20:03:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA15637; Wed, 7 May 1997 20:01:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:01:55 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3370F509.1238 interlaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 17:00:55 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: AN ERG SAVED IS AN ERG OU! Resent-Message-ID: <"hY_L3.0.Eq3.Y8KSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank - > So, if you see a "thing" running down the > highway that looks like a giant runaway > propeller beanie, you'll know it's just > Stenger testing his ram-air turbine! Ever see one of those Chia Pet cars? Some guy seeds grass in a screen plastered over his whole car. Looks uh... cool. Since the blunt look is in, why not convert the resulting turbulence around your vehicle into electricity with sheets of PiezoGrass(TM) laminated to the body of your car or truck. Yes, when the wind comes tumbling down your plains of PiezoGrass(TM), you'll be reaping the benefits and rewards of extra power and increased milage, as well as providing an exciting new look to your vehicle that says to the world: "Yes, I care about the Environment. I'm a PiezoGrass(TM) Man." Send check or money order for $375.00 for 1 oz. of PiezoGrass(TM) seed to: PiezoGrass(TM) 801 S. Beretania St. Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 7 21:43:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA28738; Wed, 7 May 1997 21:41:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 21:41:14 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970508003821_-498133180 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, jbarron@gpu.com, CldFusion@aol.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, 72240.1256@compuserve.com, RVargo1062 aol.com, 101544.702@compuserve.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, noever@webtv.net, JEFFJ ep.state.az.us, marc.g.millis@lerc.nasa.gov, herman college.antioch.edu, Lentin@imaginet.fr, barry@math.ucla.edu, FZNIDARSIC aol.com Subject: dayton #2 Resent-Message-ID: <"9xRFE1.0.y07.ebLSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subj: dayton Date: 97-05-08 00:28:39 EDT From: FZNIDARSIC To: vortex-l eskimo.com, GeorgeHM To: CldFusion, 76570.2270 compuserve.com To: 72240.1256 compuserve.com To: 101544.702 compuserve.com To: fstenger interlaced.net, RVargo1062 To: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov To: reed zenergy.com, noever@webtv.net To: JEFFJ ep.state.az.us, marc.g.millis@lerc.nasa.gov To: Lentin imaginet.fr, barry@math.ucla.edu To: FZNIDARSIC, murtha hr.house.gov I traveled to Dayton Ohio on 6 May 97. On the morning of Wednesday May 7 took a moment and visited the Wright Patterson Air Force Museum. MUSEUM The museum is huge and well worth a visit. After the museum visit I proceeded to the Wright Patterson Air Force Base area "B". I was greeted there by Dr. John Zetts. John arranged for a pass and brought me onto the base. Once on the base I was given a courtesy tour of the Wright Electromagnetic Materials Lab (building 651). I was shown the high speed optical transducers that they were developing. These devices will be able to transmit data at a terahertz rate. In the Lab, I was greeted by there Dr. Nils C. Fernelius. MATERIALS_LAB After some brief introductions a group of Air Force Scientists and I proceeded to Write State University. There we met Dr. Gust Bambakidis, Chairman of the Physics Dept at Write State. He made all of the appropriate arrangements. I met George Miley in the hall. He seemed pleased to see me. John Schaurer was also there. A group of 30 Scientists from Wright State University and Write Patterson Air Force Base gathered to hear George Miley's lecture. I took lots of pictures as always. George told us of his original experiments with flat plate cells. He reviewed his findings and went to great lengths to explain the steps he took to eliminate contamination. He reviewed his NAA results, his SIMS tests, and his mass spectrometer data. Dr. Bambakidis seem to be impressed. Yes, cold fusions is real! After an hour or so, the formal meeting broke up. As small group including George Miley, Gust Bambakidis, Elliot B Kennel (from NEDO Japan), and I then proceeded to a private lecture room. I was invited to present my ideas. I did so with a flair on the blackboard. The group seemed to be interested in what I had to say and asked questions. The meeting proceeded into other matters such as funding. I had to exit at this point because of the long drive home. I'm not sure what is going to happen next but for sure something is this hot is not going to quit smoking. Frank Znidarsic fznidarsic aol.com 481 Boyer St. http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html Johnstown, Pa. 15906 Automatic links: Home_Page Send_E-mail  From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 7 22:09:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA31572; Wed, 7 May 1997 22:06:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:06:26 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 01:03:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970508002817_-1600245060 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, jseese@gpu.com, GeorgeHM@aol.com, CldFusion@aol.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, 72240.1256@compuserve.com, 101544.702 compuserve.com, fstenger@interlaced.net, RVargo1062@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, reed@zenergy.com, noever webtv.net, JEFFJ@ep.state.az.us, marc.g.millis@lerc.nasa.gov, Lentin imaginet.fr, barry@math.ucla.edu, FZNIDARSIC@aol.com, murtha hr.house.gov Subject: dayton Resent-Message-ID: <"wmYB03.0.Aj7.HzLSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I traveled to Dayton Ohio on 6 May 97. On the morning of Wednesday May 7 took a moment and visited the Wright Patterson Air Force Museum. The museum is huge and well worth a visit. After the museum visit I proceeded to the Wright Patterson Air Force Base area "B". I was greeted there by Dr. John Zetts. John arranged for a pass and brought me onto the base. Once on the base I was given a courtesy tour of the Wright Electromagnetic Materials Lab (building 651). I was shown the high speed optical transducers that they were developing. These devices will be able to transmit data at a terahertz rate. In the Lab, I was greeted by there Dr. Nils C. Fernelius. After some brief introductions a group of Air Force Scientists and I proceeded to Write State University. There we met Dr. Gust Bambakidis, Chairman of the Physics Dept at Write State. He made all of the appropriate arrangements. I met George Miley in the hall. He seemed pleased to see me. John Schaurer was also there. A group of 30 Scientists from Wright State University and Write Patterson Air Force Base gathered to hear George Miley's lecture. I took lots of pictures as always. George told us of his original experiments with flat plate cells. He reviewed his findings and went to great lengths to explain the steps he took to eliminate contamination. He reviewed his NAA results, his SIMS tests, and his mass spectrometer data. Dr. Bambakidis seem to be impressed. Yes, cold fusions is real! After an hour or so, the formal meeting broke up. As small group including George Miley, Gust Bambakidis, Elliot B Kennel (from NEDO Japan), and I then proceeded to a private lecture room. I was invited to present my ideas. I did so with a flair on the blackboard. The group seemed to be interested in what I had to say and asked questions. The meeting proceeded into other matters such as funding. I had to exit at this point because of the long drive home. I'm not sure what is going to happen next but for sure something is this hot is not going to quit smoking. Frank Znidarsic fznidarsic aol.com 481 Boyer St. http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html Johnstown, Pa. 15906 Automatic links: Home_Page Send_E-mail  From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 7 23:22:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA08134; Wed, 7 May 1997 23:20:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:20:14 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:25:08 -0800 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"Yc5qa.0.z-1.T2NSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:48 AM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: >Hi All, > >Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps >or curved return tracks to close the loop. > >I have tried various schemes without success. > >What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be >able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between >the magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side >ways attractions very quickly. > >Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail. The ball must stay on the >"Neutral Line". > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax If you have a couple of the black boxes maybe you could try them in series. If there is any o-u performance, enough boxes in series might eventually give enough energy for a return trip. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 7 23:35:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA09449; Wed, 7 May 1997 23:32:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:32:53 -0700 Message-ID: <33717347.4CE microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 16:01:35 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Horace Heffner CC: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sqcNJ1.0.SJ2.KENSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 10:48 AM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: > >Hi All, > > > >Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps > >or curved return tracks to close the loop. > > > >I have tried various schemes without success. > > > >What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be > >able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between > >the magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side > >ways attractions very quickly. > > > >Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail. The ball must stay on the > >"Neutral Line". > > > If you have a couple of the black boxes maybe you could try them in series. > If there is any o-u performance, enough boxes in series might eventually > give enough energy for a return trip. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hi Horace, Isn't a good engineering solution as the "Tuning" of the exit is sensitive to the ball speed (too much and it leaved the exit track and is attracted to one of the side magnets). While the ramps are simple to build and seem to indicate OU, I feel they are NOT the way to close the loop. My testing seems to indicate that out of a vertical lift and drop of 20mm, I can recover around 2-3mm worth of energy on exit. For a 12mm steel ball, that's not a lot of energy to play with. They can, however, teach us about what is going on and why. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 7 23:40:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA06577; Wed, 7 May 1997 23:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:42:44 -0800 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"6_mmc3.0.hc1.BJNSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:48 AM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: >Hi All, > >Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps >or curved return tracks to close the loop. > >I have tried various schemes without success. > >What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be >able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between >the magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side >ways attractions very quickly. > >Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail. The ball must stay on the >"Neutral Line". > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax If you have a couple of the black boxes maybe you could try them in series. If there is any o-u performance, enough boxes in series might eventually give enough energy for a return trip. If you can accumulate enough energy to get far enough away from a box to turn a corner, then you could line up black boxes on the return trip to make the final corner as well, or you could just make a big circle of magnet boxes. If you had one working you could easily rent a business space and charge $10 admission just to see the world's first successful perpetual motion machine. That should cover your patenting, development, and marketing costs till you really got going. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 7 23:50:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA07229; Wed, 7 May 1997 23:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:51:00 -0800 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Hq_LV3.0.mm1.4RNSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 4:01 PM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >> At 10:48 AM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: >> >Hi All, >> > >> >Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps >> >or curved return tracks to close the loop. >> > >> >I have tried various schemes without success. >> > >> >What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be >> >able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between >> >the magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side >> >ways attractions very quickly. >> > >> >Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail. The ball must stay on the >> >"Neutral Line". >> > >> If you have a couple of the black boxes maybe you could try them in series. >> If there is any o-u performance, enough boxes in series might eventually >> give enough energy for a return trip. >> >> Regards, >> >> Horace Heffner > >Hi Horace, > >Isn't a good engineering solution as the "Tuning" of the exit is >sensitive to the ball speed (too much and it leaved the exit track and >is attracted to one of the side magnets). Use the speed to gain potential energy. You could even put the box on an upwar incline if necessary to avoid excessive speed. The the ball will not leave the track. > >While the ramps are simple to build and seem to indicate OU, I feel they >are NOT the way to close the loop. My testing seems to indicate that >out of a vertical lift and drop of 20mm, I can recover around 2-3mm >worth of energy on exit. For a 12mm steel ball, that's not a lot of >energy to play with. That's plenty. Ten boxes and you have a rise of 2-3 cm. that's plenty of elevation to roll around a corner - plus an initial 10 m of track to get away from the box. > >They can, however, teach us about what is going on and why. > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 00:05:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA12165; Wed, 7 May 1997 23:59:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:59:23 -0700 Message-ID: <33717709.B23 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 16:17:37 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pxz7K3.0.lz2.9dNSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > If you had one working you could easily rent a business space and charge > $10 admission just to see the world's first successful perpetual motion > machine. That should cover your patenting, development, and marketing costs > till you really got going. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hi Horace, And to think I thought you were the straight man. Silly me. At least now I know that you only believe in "OU according to Horace". Join the discussion group, spectics keep us ALL honest. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 00:36:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA10372; Thu, 8 May 1997 00:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970508032416.00a517f0 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 03:24:18 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Quinney Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"05ESt.0.wX2.33OSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:48 AM 5/8/97 +0930, Gary wrote: >Hi All, > >Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps >or curved return tracks to close the loop. > >I have tried various schemes without success. > >What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be >able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between >the magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side >ways attractions very quickly. > >Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail. The ball must stay on the >"Neutral Line". > Hi Gary: Here is another suggestion to try to help to keep it on the "Neutral Line" MATERIALS: Two test objects (ie; Ball Bearings ) Two Black Boxes. An *expensive* bicycle wheel racing hub, with axle. (to reduce friction to practically zero) Two rigid plastic circular 24" diameter sheets. A frame to rigidly hold the completed assembly. METHOD: Attach the centers of the rigid plastic circular 24" diameter sheets to the sides of the hub. Cut centre holes for the axle to poke through. Attach the rigid plastic circular 24" diameter sheets together, at the circumference. Insert the hub and axle into the frame. Attach two ball bearings to either side of the 24" wheel, 180 degrees apart., (or any other ferrous material you may wish to test.) Balance the whole wheel assembly. (vertically or horizontally...whatever is convenient) *Slice* an opening into the black boxes so that the rigid plastic circular 24" diameter sheets, (with the attached ball bearings,) will slip inside of the black boxes. Attach the Black Boxes to the frame and adjust them so that the rotating plastic wheel with the 12mm ball bearings will be free to rotate "into" and "out of" the black boxes.. (without touching the sides.) Perhaps a procedure like this, or another... similar.. might help. Hope it helps..and good luck. Colin Quinney. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 04:43:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA05368; Thu, 8 May 1997 04:41:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 04:41:04 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 03:46:26 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"ZAbzV1.0.oJ1.FlRSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 4:17 PM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >> If you had one working you could easily rent a business space and charge >> $10 admission just to see the world's first successful perpetual motion >> machine. That should cover your patenting, development, and marketing costs >> till you really got going. >> >> Regards, >> >> Horace Heffner > >Hi Horace, > >And to think I thought you were the straight man. Silly me. I am serious. This is certainly what I would do if I was out to commercialize what you have, provided the miracle of closing the loop can be accomplished. I believe in starting small and growing when it is possible. I would certainly take that approach before going after investor money. This is not a big energy thing at this point, even if you close the loop. It would only be a demonstrator, but a very animated one. However, that has value. I think you should be be able to draw 100 people a day per 1,000,000 population for some time. You could franchise or expand to the major cities around the world. New York alone should be worth $10,000/day gross for some time. > >At least now I know that you only believe in "OU according to Horace". I believe in replicated data demonstrating success. OU is not a religion, and may not be a fact. However, since I spend all available money and most of my time when not busy in my full time job serving a family of four as cook, butler, shopper, chauffeur, handyman, mechanic, and errand boy, I suppose you could say I have a considerable amount of faith in the prospect of finding an improved energy source. I have given freely of many ideas in a public domain pulic forum. That makes me feel like maybe, just maybe, as a part of a synergistic whole, I am giving something significant to society. > >Join the discussion group, spectics keep us ALL honest. Just curious, is the intellectual property generated by the group property of the group, or is it public domain? > > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 04:55:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA06590; Thu, 8 May 1997 04:53:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 04:53:03 -0700 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 11:50:21 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <337374eb.9283424 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.32.19970506185714.00a646c4 mail.localaccess.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970506185714.00a646c4 mail.localaccess.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KmKi-.0.uc1.UwRSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 06 May 1997 18:57:16 -0700, Epitaxy wrote: [snip] >pumping" like the TOMI device did. I have constructed 2 identical ramps >yet I was unable to close the loop. The possibility of an egineering error >on my part still remains. [snip] Does "2 identical ramps" mean two "side-by-side" setups, going in opposite directions, with the exit from each connected to the entrance of the other? Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 05:02:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA26509; Thu, 8 May 1997 04:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 04:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3371B6D1.6CEA734D verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 15:19:45 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Superconductivity, the Structure Scale of the Universe X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Tuatb.0.7U6.r0SSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To All, I found this paper today published on http://xxx.lanl.gov few hours ago. This is a large pager. Very interesting and it's like totally a new physics!. Written at 15 October 1996. It is written as self explanatory fashion I think, and lot of diagrams are embeded. At least room temperature superconductivity is expalined! There is something very unusual! Paper is located at http://xxx.lanl.gov/list/physics/new Regards, Hamdi Ucar ------------ Physics, abstract physics/9705007 From: Richard Saam Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:13:39 -0600 (286kb) Authors: Richard D. Saam Comments: 57 pages, 27 references, 11 figures, .ps.gz Report-no: PSI 0915963 Subj-class: General Physics A lattice and associated superconducting theory is postulated whereby electromagnetic and gravitational forces are mediated by a particle of mass (110.39 x electron mass) such that the established electron/proton mass is maintained, electron and proton charge is maintained and the universe radius is 1.5E28 cm, the universe mass is 2.0E56 gram, the universe density is 1.5E-29 g/cm3 and the universe time is 1.6E10 seconds. The calculated universe mass and density are based on an isotropic homogeneous media filling the vacuum of space analogous to the 'ether' referred to in the 19th century and could be considered a candidate for the 'dark matter' in present universe theories. Also, a YBCO superconductor should loos by .04% of its weight while in the superconducting mode. This value is close to the recently reported results by Podkletnov and Nieminen wherein a YBCO superconductor shields the earth's gravitational force by .05% are theoretically confirmed although no connection between superconductor weight reduction and gravitational shielding is claimed. Also dimensional guidelines are provided for design of room temperature superconductors and beyond. Paper: PostScript only From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 06:02:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA12007; Thu, 8 May 1997 06:00:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:00:39 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970508125921.008cf3b4 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 08:59:21 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"CMmZE1.0.Tx2.svSSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:48 AM 5/8/97 +0930,Greg wrote: >Hi All, > >Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps >or curved return tracks to close the loop. > >I have tried various schemes without success. > >What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be >able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between >the magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side >ways attractions very quickly. > >Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail. The ball must stay on the >"Neutral Line". > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > Has anyone suggested a return path by a semicircle under the black box (a la pendulum)? A mechanism to prevent the ball going back down the semicircle could be devised at the point of the beginning. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 07:27:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA25615; Thu, 8 May 1997 07:26:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 07:26:05 -0700 Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:25:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199705081425.KAA10961 spectre.mitre.org> To: gwatson microtronics.com.au CC: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <337129F6.6227 microtronics.com.au> (message from Greg Watson on Thu, 08 May 1997 10:48:46 +0930) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"7I2GY1.0.5G6.y9USp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Why not close it with an "inverted siphon" analog then? Imagine a track under your black box with vertically curved entrance and exit ramps. The ball falls off the ramp onto a track which converts the vertical drop into horizontal motion, then into a vertical rise. You can use a trapdoor at the other end. Just a flap of metal could be enough, but you might want to go with a more complex section which keeps the ball on rails. Put several black boxes in a row to overcome the losses of your return system... If this seems too lossy try this: When the ball gets to one end of the track it enters a ferris wheel type bucket, rides around 180 degrees, then dumps out onto a return track. This wheel is connected to another wheel at the far end which returns the ball to the upper track. Put two balls in, and away you go. Either the wheel which drops the balls can be slightly larger or you can use the impact of the fast moving ball to overcome frictional losses. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 08:14:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA19443; Thu, 8 May 1997 08:09:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:09:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:10:30 -0700 Message-Id: <199705081510.IAA06706 netserve.kfalls.net> X-Sender: me2 kfalls.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ME2 KFALLS.NET (Don Evans) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"xKpHV1.0.el4.aoUSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: try laying a wire on the track or loosely wrap a wirel around a tube and inclose the ball within the tube see if you can induce a current in the wire with the motion of the ball just a thought Don >At 4:17 PM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: >>Horace Heffner wrote: >>> >>> If you had one working you could easily rent a business space and charge >>> $10 admission just to see the world's first successful perpetual motion >>> machine. That should cover your patenting, development, and marketing costs >>> till you really got going. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Horace Heffner >> >>Hi Horace, >> >>And to think I thought you were the straight man. Silly me. > >I am serious. This is certainly what I would do if I was out to >commercialize what you have, provided the miracle of closing the loop can >be accomplished. I believe in starting small and growing when it is >possible. I would certainly take that approach before going after investor >money. This is not a big energy thing at this point, even if you close the >loop. It would only be a demonstrator, but a very animated one. However, >that has value. I think you should be be able to draw 100 people a day per >1,000,000 population for some time. You could franchise or expand to the >major cities around the world. New York alone should be worth $10,000/day >gross for some time. > > >> >>At least now I know that you only believe in "OU according to Horace". > >I believe in replicated data demonstrating success. OU is not a religion, >and may not be a fact. However, since I spend all available money and most >of my time when not busy in my full time job serving a family of four as >cook, butler, shopper, chauffeur, handyman, mechanic, and errand boy, I >suppose you could say I have a considerable amount of faith in the prospect >of finding an improved energy source. I have given freely of many ideas in >a public domain pulic forum. That makes me feel like maybe, just maybe, as >a part of a synergistic whole, I am giving something significant to >society. > > >> >>Join the discussion group, spectics keep us ALL honest. > >Just curious, is the intellectual property generated by the group property >of the group, or is it public domain? > >> >> >>-- >>Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >>Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 08:45:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA06754; Thu, 8 May 1997 08:43:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:43:07 -0700 Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705081542.IAA01585 iceland.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"hpdH-1.0.Sf1.AIVSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >> At 10:48 AM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: >> >Hi All, >> > >> >Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps >> >or curved return tracks to close the loop. >> > >> >I have tried various schemes without success. >> > >> >What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be >> >able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between >> >the magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side >> >ways attractions very quickly. >> > >> >Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail. The ball must stay on the >> >"Neutral Line". >> > >> If you have a couple of the black boxes maybe you could try them in series. >> If there is any o-u performance, enough boxes in series might eventually >> give enough energy for a return trip. >> >> Regards, >> >> Horace Heffner > >Hi Horace, > >Isn't a good engineering solution as the "Tuning" of the exit is >sensitive to the ball speed (too much and it leaved the exit track and >is attracted to one of the side magnets). > >While the ramps are simple to build and seem to indicate OU, I feel they >are NOT the way to close the loop. My testing seems to indicate that >out of a vertical lift and drop of 20mm, I can recover around 2-3mm >worth of energy on exit. For a 12mm steel ball, that's not a lot of >energy to play with. > >They can, however, teach us about what is going on and why. > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > > Hi Greg, Is the 2-3mm worth of energy on exit an estimated calculation of the 600mm distance from the exit on the exit ramp? Or is it another design with an end drop verses a sloping away end drop? Any ideas for close the loop without ramps? Best Regards Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 10:00:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA04657; Thu, 8 May 1997 09:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 09:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BC5B95.52B04630 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Simple OU Device Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 09:50:54 -0700 Encoding: 21 TEXT, 43 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"JCbq23.0.c81._HWSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: (snipped part of discussion with Greg) >>out of a vertical lift and drop of 20mm, I can recover around 2-3mm >>worth of energy on exit. For a 12mm steel ball, that's not a lot of >>energy to play with. > >That's plenty. Ten boxes and you have a rise of 2-3 cm. that's >plenty of elevation to roll around a corner - plus an initial 10 m >of track to get away from the box. Hi Horace, >From my observations putting many in series may not be that simple, because the ramps seem to act as a speed governor - that is, if you ram a ball in very quickly it will actually be slowed down shortly after entry. Dan begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C<0`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0! `(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! M. $````"`?8/`0````0````````",#,!!( !`!4```!213H@4VEM<&QE($]5 M($1E=FEC90"/! $%@ ,`#@```,T'!0`(``D`,@`V``0`5@$!(( #``X```#- M!P4`" `(`#<`$ `$`#8!`0F `0`A````-T(R,SDX14)".4,W1# Q,4(W,3@P M,$$P,C1"03$V,S<`# N8 M(X#'N1'0MQ `H"2Z%C<``!X`'@P!````!0```%--5% `````'@`?# $````7 M````9&5Q=6EC:V5R=$!U8V1A=FES+F5D=0```P`&$)]';=<#``<0-P(``!X` M"! !````90```$A/4D%#14A%1D9.15)74D]413HH4TY)4%!%1%!!4E1/1D1) M4T-54U-)3TY7251(1U)%1RE/551/1D%615)424-!3$Q)1E1!3D1$4D]03T8R M,$U-+$E#04Y214-/5D5205)/54X`````` $)$ $```!-`P``20,``!D&``!, M6D9U-(+VC_\`" $/`A4"I /D!>L"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K M$ W!;MD$D"!W`V 50#H*CQU,21]U*',#`'!P"8 0Q^A!4!O9B!D! !C&G4$ M$&D"(!\`:71HY"!'&4!G*0M&%V(,`;L4P!\Q8P5 'W< 7SXD/XTE1#X(8"*3 M82!V!)#(=&EC!T ; :0!4!K`' B0&0#8' BH@'0;>!M+"!)("FP`Z 90"\% MH"EA*3 #8'4J43(MWC,K("6O)K\GSW<8X2/ 9R*Q"? $D&=Y(J #H&7">". M+B 1@6Q*4 T,3(K(" 5,1:@(&*-!T!L*T CL&%T)P0@_FX?,"DQ&- BDBT/ M+A\O+WDPQ71O(E +8#$0(Y(NWS1_-8 ?=38?)354,U0+4&D)\'1Y,:!4"? R MT&_6> >1*D)Y"& $< I8+\I,040$? JPRS *W!M,:#_,T0X[S6/)*X\]"*A M0-\>`.= QR2]%J!E=C- (U(X$;\#8!:Q+$4I0 6A'M(M.#%[(R J,2 +@".@ M!S$R(#!>("S_06]%OR*Q=!Y!:STX`F<2`$J_12\E%V%W_SAA`U(S,1YP/;$X MV" /(1JT2&D>%2Q2)5(E1E%BZFTQ$6(1\')&]#S1*.#_*9 <0$H `' Q$ N M,G &<>\'D0# ,1 SLF(><#-",G#_!W \\2M 64 IL", 65(>0%G@!" 1 M\!50. (`T"HA[SWQ,G B("(Q9ROR,[!(PO]9<#%@(Q$^P5?Q34E-WD4PL06@ M#; B0&HL<$W0_F$B$0K 5Y)BM".P! `B4/YO"X %0$C /I%7DDV0"&#_`F ' MD2.3`, #$24A" From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Simple OU Device Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:00:46 -0700 Encoding: 24 TEXT, 46 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"5X8i23.0.1V1.ERWSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Don Evans wrote: >try laying a wire on the track or loosely wrap a wirel around a tube and >inclose the ball within the tube see if you can induce a current in the wire >with the motion of the ball just a thought Don A related observation: I've experimented using thin brass sheet cut and bent into shape for an exit guide. When working with a large brass unit inserted into the exit area, have noticed that the magnetic characteristics of the unit change slightly. Usually this manifests itself in the ball not making it all the way over the edge. This indicates to me a strong possiblility of the approaching ball inducing currents in the brass. I've previously wondered about using a track whose 2 sides are electrically insulated, to possibly draw off the currents induced in the moving ball. But didn't want to be distracted yet from getting the maximum kinetic energy out. Dan begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C 1`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0! `(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! M. $````"`?8/`0````0````````",#,!!( !`!4```!213H@4VEM<&QE($]5 M($1E=FEC90"/! $%@ ,`#@```,T'!0`(``H````N``0`'0$!(( #``X```#- M!P4`" `)````' `$``H!`0F `0`A````-T0R,SDX14)".4,W1# Q,4(W,3 P M,$$P,C1"03$V,S<`$ N8 M(X/'N1'0MQ `H"2Z%C<``!X`'@P!````!0```%--5% `````'@`?# $````7 M````9&5Q=6EC:V5R=$!U8V1A=FES+F5D=0```P`&$'N)2]4#``<0' ,``!X` M"! !````90```$1/3D5604Y35U)/5$4Z5%)93$%924Y'05=)4D5/3E1(1512 M04-+3U),3T]314Q95U)!4$%725)%3$%23U5.1$%454)%04Y$24Y#3$]3151( M14)!3$Q7251(24Y42$5454)%4T4`````` $)$ $```#T`P``\ ,``),&``!, M6D9U"]'CDO\`" $/`A4"I /D!>L"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K ([&N\R-34" J!#;'!"V!N9S$P,Q0@"PH[$O(,`6,`0!;0 M`B 15IV!B)W`V 50#H*BVR0:3$T- +1:2TAP^\,T"'#"U48DC$8D!3 ()'N M8P5 "H\>_#X+1A=B# &A(^9T0A@(&,# MD0N ^&1U8RP1,C (,)(I$^D$8'1I'^%O,> P M!RN +&IU%3 KLF@(8&=H/P5 '\(D;S9')%@TWT$@32L!815 *Y!O8A'P' &<0> `C ^,3E0VRA",+-B*7 $$7,6D!(`GS,!.7$K M 2P`,V-T;T%1?RJ0*- "$ 7 `Y$_@#"@((AG=6D-L"X@5Q:0]0.@=P6P:RA" M-V,H M@_')G,"%!$RMP0]$+@#Z!'SXB0I,I(D.S"L!E82SV(!' /U%N. $R MP"N0*2#C/A WI&%G;A(`21 R,/\1P0#0%4 %$!4P21 $(#AE_T9S$;$=\#%Q M(: Y\2I 1%#X57-U,%$G\#"Q!" # ?L&D >0= 0@,* J(3'@,-7_,$-(X4GA M1/-(`A:Q,\,H(&\HX#]0!4&1 M`U)#\!(`.!#G0(-)TD/ ;75E4$3Q2C/["? $D&=1<4'01% Z?S9(VQ^29_5$ M`'!8K#P+4$A0/R_1/X S$"_1`' G\$U)?$U%9R$%H VP*Y Y0&[_*:!5H4A0 M!1 H4 & 4;--\?-48$*1("U(@D!S*U$"8#\'D3=C`, #$2/A"`#T``0````4```!213H ``````,`#33]-P``]JA; ` end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 11:57:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA22741; Thu, 8 May 1997 11:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:53:44 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"InfmY1.0.AZ5.S0YSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 9:50 AM 5/8/97, Dan Quickert wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >(snipped part of discussion with Greg) >>>out of a vertical lift and drop of 20mm, I can recover around 2-3mm >>>worth of energy on exit. For a 12mm steel ball, that's not a lot of >>>energy to play with. >> >>That's plenty. Ten boxes and you have a rise of 2-3 cm. that's >>plenty of elevation to roll around a corner - plus an initial 10 m >>of track to get away from the box. > >Hi Horace, > >>From my observations putting many in series may not be that simple, because >the ramps seem to act as a speed governor - that is, if you ram a ball in >very quickly it will actually be slowed down shortly after entry. > >Dan > That's why I suggested an uphill leg there. If work is being done it can be done to create potential energy right there by pushing up hill instead of pushing faster. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 13:54:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA18811; Thu, 8 May 1997 13:48:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:48:48 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970508164421.007e9960 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 16:44:24 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Quinney Subject: RE: Simple OU Device Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Rz1sj.0.ib4.kmZSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>>>From my observations putting many in series may not be that simple, because >>the ramps seem to act as a speed governor - that is, if you ram a ball in >>very quickly it will actually be slowed down shortly after entry. >> >>Dan >That's why I suggested an uphill leg there. If work is being done it can >be done to create potential energy right there by pushing up hill instead >of pushing faster. > >Horace Heffner > What if you placed only one ball on a wheel, and angled the wheel so that the ball exited with an up hill leg? The correct axial position and box position could be found by simple positioning experiments. Colin Quinney. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 15:01:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA31942; Thu, 8 May 1997 14:54:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:54:38 -0700 Message-ID: <33724B6D.1D69 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 07:23:49 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CAp6o3.0.0p7.TkaSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > >Join the discussion group, spectics keep us ALL honest. > > Just curious, is the intellectual property generated by the group property > of the group, or is it public domain? Hadn't thought of that. Its not mine. I guess its there to be used by all. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 15:44:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA08754; Thu, 8 May 1997 15:26:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:26:55 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC5BC4.4B9D9F30 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Simple OU Device Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:27:08 -0700 Encoding: 40 TEXT, 58 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"gIs1Q2.0.h82.kCbSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:53 AM 5/8/97 Horace Heffner wrote: >>From my observations putting many in series may not be that simple, because >>the ramps seem to act as a speed governor - that is, if you ram a ball in >>very quickly it will actually be slowed down shortly after entry. >> >>Dan >> > >That's why I suggested an uphill leg there. If work is being done it can >be done to create potential energy right there by pushing up hill instead >of pushing faster. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner Oops! Sorry, Horace, I misunderstood your post. Seems like your idea would work, now that I see it better. Track resistance is still going to eat up a lot of that 3mm gain per unit, though, just getting from 'box' to 'box'. *If* we're going to continue with the linear track idea, I think we need to look at a different type of track, at least experimentally. Don't have data but aluminum seems far from low-friction for a metal. Aside from the rolling friction, the metal track is undoubtedly getting a field induced in it. Whether that field is helping or hurting the ball's movement is a question that should be answered. I remember my nephew had a toy that consisted of ball bearings running on some kind of moveable/changeable (in 3 dimensions) track, and it seemed to have very low friction. It had a screw elevator that raised the balls a couple feet to get them going; did loop-the-loops and other such stunts on the way down. Maybe would be worth a trip to a big toy store to see what they have. BTW, I *finally* have gotten a unit that gives me rise greater than ball diameter, and exits at the same height as the entrance. So now feel better about Greg putting me on his list as 'constructed' :-) Dan begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^( H6`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! M. $````"`?8/`0````0````````",#,!!( !`!4```!213H@4VEM<&QE($]5 M($1E=FEC90"/! $%@ ,`#@```,T'!0`(``\`&P`(``0`%P$!(( #``X```#- M!P4`" `.`"8`.P`$`%0!`0F `0`A````1CE#.3DT-C9%04,W1# Q,4(W,3 P M,$$P,C1"03$V,S<`%PL"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K %D-?#M)E%H&.$T86$! " 1 M"?#Z=#/ +C"?,:\ROS??.._].?]$`' [#SP?/2\^;S]_KT".09]"KT".5">A M)P0 %'=H)(!))F!U9V>/!Y 50"WP`Y%U<&@TTL\H("70+ $90"X@2' O8/IW M!;!K+P$G426R-D `/\T@BB /E]%OT;/)V%+LRSQ[04`924`'Z!P(&$", 0<7)MTFL")Y +@$L`WS8`)Q MTBSQ&-!O2P`GL74MD&0& MD&9*00(P)X!Y_RW =$-Q8BA )[$H(%?Q-V"^>'5A!W$",#522G!$`B#^)P5 M$< N,#8P)0`P`26 _RT0"D!K0'HP)% LH 0@5^#W!V8$(&MQ"&!B M20$T83MVUBV09 B0;E$+@&1U[Q^0BF(T@4IP5Q? 2B(GA+>*)00@%\%P);(% ML6 (%7,3 C)V#W M"L EL00 3'W $`'T"CA4M< 6@27#_F0%^,!(`+.)VT4H2=/%S`DX[??$M\'UA M<"TL`2W_HH(M<9>2BZ-(H!&PJ"4$041_RSC)U!1P)0C:\%202SQ;Y(_2$ GL2P!)("!@G!M0E3J5VL" M*HH ;C52>-"!@S\N$' A`Z MD'6B)X1G:?\N,";!+"&?02X`4$.+TP.@_S C M? `L4!(`!)":I( @-)#_+7%1\R9@K\&,P5'#+6$L`O\W`#T``0````4```!213H ``````,`#33]-P``]6M; ` end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 15:45:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA14575; Thu, 8 May 1997 15:41:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:41:21 -0700 Message-ID: <33725656.6ACE microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:10:22 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: <199705081542.IAA01585 iceland.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7_HH5.0.fZ3.GQbSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Randall wrote: > > Is the 2-3mm worth of energy on exit an estimated calculation of the 600mm > distance from the exit on the exit ramp? Or is it another design with an end > drop verses a sloping away end drop? Estimation of the height needed to roll 600mm > > Any ideas for close the loop without ramps? > > Best Regards > Michael Randall Hi Michael, Have a look at the magnetic ferris wheel idea. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 15:50:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA12501; Thu, 8 May 1997 15:35:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:35:34 -0700 Message-ID: <337254F2.C2C microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:04:26 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: <199705081425.KAA10961 spectre.mitre.org> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------61D7640D5762" Resent-Message-ID: <"WGIfo1.0.333.pKbSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------61D7640D5762 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > Why not close it with an "inverted siphon" analog then? Imagine a > track under your black box with vertically curved entrance and exit > ramps. The ball falls off the ramp onto a track which converts the > vertical drop into horizontal motion, then into a vertical rise. You > can use a trapdoor at the other end. Just a flap of metal could be > enough, but you might want to go with a more complex section which > keeps the ball on rails. Put several black boxes in a row to overcome > the losses of your return system... > > If this seems too lossy try this: When the ball gets to one end > of the track it enters a ferris wheel type bucket, rides around 180 > degrees, then dumps out onto a return track. This wheel is connected > to another wheel at the far end which returns the ball to the upper > track. Put two balls in, and away you go. Either the wheel which > drops the balls can be slightly larger or you can use the impact of > the fast moving ball to overcome frictional losses. > > Robert I. Eachus Hi Robert, I have a design like that. It looks like it should work. And the balls stay on the centre line! What do you think? -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. 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microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:13:07 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: <01BC5B95.52B04630 ristra.ucdavis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XrTI42.0.Cw3.4WbSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: > > >From my observations putting many in series may not be that simple, because > the ramps seem to act as a speed governor - that is, if you ram a ball in > very quickly it will actually be slowed down shortly after entry. > > Dan Hi Dan, That's my point in a nut shell. Multi ramps are interesting and can teach you a lot about the magnetics involved, but they are very touchy. Don't believe multi ramps are how to close the loop. What do you think of the magnetic ferris wheel idea? -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 15:53:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA02875; Thu, 8 May 1997 15:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <337255CF.E05 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:08:07 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: <199705081510.IAA06706 netserve.kfalls.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BQqLl.0.oi.aObSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Don Evans wrote: > > try laying a wire on the track or loosely wrap a wirel around a tube and > inclose the ball within the tube see if you can induce a current in the wire > with the motion of the ball just a thought Don Hi Don, Hadn't trought of that. But it would just brake the balls motion. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 15:55:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA04455; Thu, 8 May 1997 15:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <337257CD.3297 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:16:37 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: <01BC5B96.B3E829D0 ristra.ucdavis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"90AxG3.0.P51.zWbSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: > > Don Evans wrote: > > >try laying a wire on the track or loosely wrap a wirel around a tube and > >inclose the ball within the tube see if you can induce a current in the > wire > >with the motion of the ball just a thought Don > > A related observation: I've experimented using thin brass sheet cut and > bent into shape for an exit guide. When working with a large brass unit > inserted into the exit area, have noticed that the magnetic characteristics > of the unit change slightly. Usually this manifests itself in the ball not > making it all the way over the edge. This indicates to me a strong > possiblility of the approaching ball inducing currents in the brass. > > I've previously wondered about using a track whose 2 sides are electrically > insulated, to possibly draw off the currents induced in the moving ball. > But didn't want to be distracted yet from getting the maximum kinetic > energy out. > > Dan Hi Dan, You don't really need any other guide than the alum "U" channel for a exit track. If you use an exit spot about 10% back inside the end of the magnets, the increasing exit field strength will slightly force the ball back into the track and help to hold it centered as it exits. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 16:03:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA05729; Thu, 8 May 1997 15:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <337258CA.3B01 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:20:50 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WjE1L1.0.PP1.-bbSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 9:50 AM 5/8/97, Dan Quickert wrote: > >Horace Heffner wrote: > > > >(snipped part of discussion with Greg) > >>>out of a vertical lift and drop of 20mm, I can recover around 2-3mm > >>>worth of energy on exit. For a 12mm steel ball, that's not a lot of > >>>energy to play with. > >> > >>That's plenty. Ten boxes and you have a rise of 2-3 cm. that's > >>plenty of elevation to roll around a corner - plus an initial 10 m > >>of track to get away from the box. > > > >Hi Horace, > > > >>From my observations putting many in series may not be that simple, because > >the ramps seem to act as a speed governor - that is, if you ram a ball in > >very quickly it will actually be slowed down shortly after entry. > > > >Dan > > > > That's why I suggested an uphill leg there. If work is being done it can > be done to create potential energy right there by pushing up hill instead > of pushing faster. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hi Horace, I have tried to get a lift with some results. Seems if the lift is too close, drag back increases as the field density is higher above the ball. Try it too close and I get almost nothing, further away and the ball has lost most of its energy through friction. Oh well, life never was meant to be easy. What do you think about the magnetic ferris wheel idea? -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 16:18:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA06446; Thu, 8 May 1997 15:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BC5BC8.6BFE5C70 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: RE: Simple OU Device Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:56:41 -0700 Encoding: 13 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"2-uHW1.0.Ua1.IfbSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > >What do you think of the magnetic ferris wheel idea? The *idea* looks good. The implementation may have problems. Have you tried it? Seems like lots of friction there. Also may be magnetic field interactions with all the balls making a continuous path around from begin to end of ramp. Have you modeled that? Maybe something more like a real Ferris wheel, or water wheel, as someone else suggested would work better. Only one major point of friction at the center, and balls spaced farther apart to avoid magnetic interactions. Dan From hheffner corecom.net Thu May 8 16:24:06 1997 Received: from home.corecom.net (root [199.237.128.11]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA13345; Thu, 8 May 1997 16:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [199.237.131.225] (palmer12.corecom.net [199.237.131.232]) by home.corecom.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA15449; Thu, 8 May 1997 15:29:47 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:28:10 -0800 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, epitaxy@localaccess.com, dequickert ucdavis.edu, catware@worldonline.nl, billb@eskimo.com, harti harti.com, puthoff@aol.com, little@eden.com, bshannon@tiac.net, jnaudin509 aol.com, mrandall@earthlink.net, ksmith@ihug.co.nz, ddeleo ix.netcom.com, Bill Wright , Robin van Spaandonk , "Francis J. Stenger" , vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Re : Simple Ou Device Explained? Status: RO X-Status: At 7:58 AM 5/9/97, Greg Watson wrote: [snip] > >I have added Horace, Robin and Frank to the list. Any objections? > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax Unbelievable! It's still the same answer I give you this morning: At 3:16 AM 5/8/97, Horace Heffner wrote: >At 4:27 PM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: >>Hi Horace, >[snip] >> >>You are quite welcome to join the group. I can send you all the corro >>to date if you wish. I am concerned we are flooding other mail boxes >>that aren't interested. That's why I set up the group. >> >>I do value your input, negative or positive. >> >>-- >>Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >>Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > > >Sorry, I prefer to stay with an archived public forum and also don't like >getting attachments. Furter, I am very busy of late, have dropped various >lists, and expect to drop even vortex soon. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner Please remove me from the list. I'll make my further contributions, if any, on vortex. Regards, Horace Heffner From gwatson microtronics.com.au Thu May 8 16:30:10 1997 Received: from orca.microtronics.com.au (root orca.microtronics.com.au [203.30.55.1]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA26364; Thu, 8 May 1997 16:30:03 -0700 Received: from ppp.microtronics.com.au (ppp0h.microtronics.com.au [203.30.55.107]) by orca.microtronics.com.au (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA06664; Fri, 9 May 1997 08:59:28 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <337261B4.7D52 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:58:52 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Horace Heffner CC: epitaxy localaccess.com, dequickert@ucdavis.edu, catware@worldonline.nl, billb eskimo.com, harti@harti.com, puthoff@aol.com, little@eden.com, bshannon tiac.net, jnaudin509@aol.com, mrandall@earthlink.net, ksmith ihug.co.nz, ddeleo@ix.netcom.com, Bill Wright , Robin van Spaandonk , "Francis J. Stenger" , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re : Simple Ou Device Explained? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 7:58 AM 5/9/97, Greg Watson wrote: > [snip] > > > >I have added Horace, Robin and Frank to the list. Any objections? > > > >-- > >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au > >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > > Unbelievable! It's still the same answer I give you this morning: > > At 3:16 AM 5/8/97, Horace Heffner wrote: > >At 4:27 PM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: > >>Hi Horace, > >[snip] > >> > >>You are quite welcome to join the group. I can send you all the corro > >>to date if you wish. I am concerned we are flooding other mail boxes > >>that aren't interested. That's why I set up the group. > >> > >>I do value your input, negative or positive. > >> > >>-- > >>Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au > >>Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > > > > > >Sorry, I prefer to stay with an archived public forum and also don't like > >getting attachments. Furter, I am very busy of late, have dropped various > >lists, and expect to drop even vortex soon. > > > >Regards, > > > >Horace Heffner > > Please remove me from the list. I'll make my further contributions, if > any, on vortex. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hi Horace, Sorry, I haven't received the message you refer to. Seems mail messages go through some sort of time warp to get here. I have removed you from the discussion group. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 16:34:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA13423; Thu, 8 May 1997 16:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:28:10 -0800 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, epitaxy@localaccess.com, dequickert ucdavis.edu, catware@worldonline.nl, billb@eskimo.com, harti harti.com, puthoff@aol.com, little@eden.com, bshannon@tiac.net, jnaudin509 aol.com, mrandall@earthlink.net, ksmith@ihug.co.nz, ddeleo ix.netcom.com, Bill Wright , Robin van Spaandonk , "Francis J. Stenger" , vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Re : Simple Ou Device Explained? Resent-Message-ID: <"J-8LK2.0.fH3.S2cSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:58 AM 5/9/97, Greg Watson wrote: [snip] > >I have added Horace, Robin and Frank to the list. Any objections? > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax Unbelievable! It's still the same answer I give you this morning: At 3:16 AM 5/8/97, Horace Heffner wrote: >At 4:27 PM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: >>Hi Horace, >[snip] >> >>You are quite welcome to join the group. I can send you all the corro >>to date if you wish. I am concerned we are flooding other mail boxes >>that aren't interested. That's why I set up the group. >> >>I do value your input, negative or positive. >> >>-- >>Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >>Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > > >Sorry, I prefer to stay with an archived public forum and also don't like >getting attachments. Furter, I am very busy of late, have dropped various >lists, and expect to drop even vortex soon. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner Please remove me from the list. I'll make my further contributions, if any, on vortex. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 16:37:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA26417; Thu, 8 May 1997 16:30:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:30:13 -0700 Message-ID: <337261B4.7D52 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:58:52 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Horace Heffner CC: epitaxy localaccess.com, dequickert@ucdavis.edu, catware@worldonline.nl, billb eskimo.com, harti@harti.com, puthoff@aol.com, little@eden.com, bshannon tiac.net, jnaudin509@aol.com, mrandall@earthlink.net, ksmith ihug.co.nz, ddeleo@ix.netcom.com, Bill Wright , Robin van Spaandonk , "Francis J. Stenger" , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re : Simple Ou Device Explained? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"U0zwj1.0.gS6.38cSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 7:58 AM 5/9/97, Greg Watson wrote: > [snip] > > > >I have added Horace, Robin and Frank to the list. Any objections? > > > >-- > >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au > >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > > Unbelievable! It's still the same answer I give you this morning: > > At 3:16 AM 5/8/97, Horace Heffner wrote: > >At 4:27 PM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: > >>Hi Horace, > >[snip] > >> > >>You are quite welcome to join the group. I can send you all the corro > >>to date if you wish. I am concerned we are flooding other mail boxes > >>that aren't interested. That's why I set up the group. > >> > >>I do value your input, negative or positive. > >> > >>-- > >>Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au > >>Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > > > > > >Sorry, I prefer to stay with an archived public forum and also don't like > >getting attachments. Furter, I am very busy of late, have dropped various > >lists, and expect to drop even vortex soon. > > > >Regards, > > > >Horace Heffner > > Please remove me from the list. I'll make my further contributions, if > any, on vortex. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hi Horace, Sorry, I haven't received the message you refer to. Seems mail messages go through some sort of time warp to get here. I have removed you from the discussion group. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 16:42:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA15590; Thu, 8 May 1997 16:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33726376.78C6 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 09:06:22 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: <01BC5BC8.6BFE5C70 ristra.ucdavis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CL1U83.0.Wp3.7FcSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > >What do you think of the magnetic ferris wheel idea? > > The *idea* looks good. The implementation may have problems. Have you tried > it? Seems like lots of friction there. Also may be magnetic field > interactions with all the balls making a continuous path around from begin > to end of ramp. Have you modeled that? > Maybe something more like a real Ferris wheel, or water wheel, as someone > else suggested would work better. Only one major point of friction at the > center, and balls spaced farther apart to avoid magnetic interactions. > > Dan Hi Dan, I havent starting building yet. I am on my third design now. The balls don't slide, the wheel rotates. Believe the balls would be restrained by thin non magnetic partitions between each ball. Magnetic simulations look good. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 16:55:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA30865; Thu, 8 May 1997 16:52:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:52:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:51:37 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705082351.SAA25965 dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: ICCF-7 WEB PAGE?? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"nbTuE2.0.BY7.oScSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: May 8, 1997 The organizors of the ICCF-7 indicated an early establishment of a ICCF-7 Web Page? Anybody know the status of that project by ENECO? -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 16:55:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA29822; Thu, 8 May 1997 16:48:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:48:13 -0700 Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:47:27 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705082347.SAA25850 dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: Where did Skypoint fly to? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"9i6Q43.0.qH7.xOcSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: May 8, 1997 It's been a while since I accessed John Logajan's Skypoint web page. And I could not find it! Is it off the Internet temporarily or permanently? I did not see any notices on the Vortex. And links to his site from other web sites cannot find it. Neither can a search engine. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 16:59:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA32011; Thu, 8 May 1997 16:56:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:56:43 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705081850.ZM20546 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:50:43 -0500 In-Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) "Where did Skypoint fly to?" (May 8, 6:43pm) References: <199705082347.SAA25850 dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Where did Skypoint fly to? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"QFuTQ.0.5q7.xWcSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On May 8, 6:43pm, Akira Kawasaki wrote: > It's been a while since I accessed John Logajan's Skypoint web page. > And I could not find it! Is it off the Internet temporarily or > permanently? I did not see any notices on the Vortex. And links to his > site from other web sites cannot find it. Neither can a search engine. ???? I just called it up. It's still there........ http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan/ -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 19:08:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA27415; Thu, 8 May 1997 18:59:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:59:14 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Where did Skypoint fly to? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 20:59:06 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9705081850.ZM20546 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> from "John Steck" at May 8, 97 06:50:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"r2ZDS3.0.Gi6.nJeSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > John E. Steck wrote: > On May 8, 6:43pm, Akira Kawasaki wrote: > > > It's been a while since I accessed John Logajan's Skypoint web page. > > And I could not find it! Is it off the Internet temporarily or > > permanently? I did not see any notices on the Vortex. And links to his > > site from other web sites cannot find it. Neither can a search engine. > > ???? I just called it up. It's still there........ > > http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan/ Apparently the old url format quit working, which was: http://www.skypoint.com/subscribers/jlogajan/ ^^^^^^^^^^^ Please use: http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan/ ^^^^^^^ from now on. Thanks. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 21:31:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA02562; Thu, 8 May 1997 21:28:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:28:13 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:30:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: *ANNOUNCEMENT* Resent-Message-ID: <"0tA3c1.0.xd.SVgSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: * * * * * * A N N O U N C E M E N T * * * * * * Energy machine inventor JOSEPH NEWMAN has been invited to make a Presentation at the upcoming FOURTH INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM ON NEW ENERGY. Date: Memorial Day Weekend, May 23-26, 1997 Place: Denver, Colorado Marriott Denver Tech Center [Reservations: (303) 779-1100 or (800) 228-9290] For further information, contact the: ACADEMY FOR NEW ENERGY (970) 482-3731 (970) 482-3120 (fax) 216 Commerce Dr., #4, Fort Collins, Colorado 80524 * * * * * * A N N O U N C E M E N T * * * * * * From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 8 21:32:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA27935; Thu, 8 May 1997 21:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705090402.VAA07113 norway.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"BcFT_1.0.Hq6.4PgSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: >Michael Randall wrote: >> Any ideas for close the loop without ramps? >> >> Best Regards >> Michael Randall > >Hi Michael, > >Have a look at the magnetic ferris wheel idea. > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > > Hi Greg, Yes, but it still uses the ramp? Any solutions without the ramp? Best Regards Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 9 04:15:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA18509; Fri, 9 May 1997 04:13:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:13:53 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 07:13:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970509071315_-1533610402 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Levitron in action color video Resent-Message-ID: <"CzfmR3.0.3X4.mRmSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, If you want to see by yourself, a magnetic levitation device in action ( in ambiant temperature.....). I put a small color video ( 135 ko in AVI, Video for Windows format ) of my Levitron device. ( weight : 25 gr , 1000 RPM, 40 mm above the base during 2mn30 ) So, you will be able to dream about some antigravity devices floating above the ground with this video..... You can download this video at : http://members.aol.com/overunity2/images/lvtclr.avi Have fun, Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 9 04:26:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA12633; Fri, 9 May 1997 04:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33730923.6C7F microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 20:53:15 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Levitron in action color video References: <970509071315_-1533610402 emout17.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EPe4B1.0.J53.KcmSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > > Hi All, > > If you want to see by yourself, a magnetic levitation device in action ( in > ambiant temperature.....). > I put a small color video ( 135 ko in AVI, Video for Windows format ) of my > Levitron device. > ( weight : 25 gr , 1000 RPM, 40 mm above the base during 2mn30 ) > So, you will be able to dream about some antigravity devices floating above > the ground with this video..... > > You can download this video at : > > http://members.aol.com/overunity2/images/lvtclr.avi > > Have fun, > > Truly, > > Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Hi Jean-Louis, I am suprised how much the position varies. Is this normal? Is the field source (base) a PM? If so what is its shape and field polarity. What is the polarity of the ring magnet in the spinner? Interesting how high it floats. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 9 07:54:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA12223; Fri, 9 May 1997 07:52:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 07:52:13 -0700 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 14:50:07 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <33771b8b.16629536 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <01BC5B95.52B04630 ristra.ucdavis.edu> In-Reply-To: <01BC5B95.52B04630 ristra.ucdavis.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sfXbZ3.0.r-2.SepSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 8 May 1997 09:50:54 -0700, Dan Quickert wrote: [snip] >>From my observations putting many in series may not be that simple, because >the ramps seem to act as a speed governor - that is, if you ram a ball in >very quickly it will actually be slowed down shortly after entry. [snip] Interesting, where does the kinetic energy go? Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 9 08:18:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA16279; Fri, 9 May 1997 08:16:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:16:00 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:15:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970509103849_675068339 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re : Re: Levitron in action color video Resent-Message-ID: <"1ZNnu3.0.H-3.l-pSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 09/05/1997 14:00:11 , Greg Watson wrote : << Is this normal? Is the field source (base) a PM? If so what is its shape and field polarity. What is the polarity of the ring magnet in the spinner? Interesting how high it floats. >> Hi Greg, Yes the base is a ring magnet North pole upward, the Levitron is a ring magnet in repulsive mode, and the device float in the lower "basin" of magnetic potential. The equilibrium is obtained with the precession of the spinning top. The gravitational field interact with the magnetic field, in concrete terms the magnetic force repulsion is compensated by the weight of the spinning top. This the precession which prevent the toppling over of the top. The wobbling of the Levitron in levitation remember to me some video of flying UFOs....This is the reason why I put this video clip... :-) << Stability of the Levitron Lee O. Heflinger (Torrance, CA), S. L. Ridgway (Santa Monica, CA), Martin D. Simon (University of California, Los Angeles) abstract. Abstract text lines The Levitron, manufactured by Fascinations in Seattle WA, successfully demonstrates magnetic suspension. A 22 gram spinning magnetic dipole top is supported by magnetic forces that balance its weight about 3.2 cm above a magnetized base, and it will float about two minutes until its spin rate has declined to about 1000 rpm. However, since in general i t is not possible (The Feynman Lectures on Physics Volume II, 5-4) to have a potential energy minimum or maximum for any rigidly connected system of poles in a magnetic field, the stability of the Levitron is not obvious. Gyroscopic forces that prevent the top from flipping over and being attracted to the base have been suggested as the source of the stability (US Patent 5,404,062, Hones et al.). We find that fixing the direction of the top axis in space is not sufficient. An analysis and numerical integration of the five degree of freedom equations of motion of the top that includes gyroscopic precession around the local magnetic field lines do predict that the top will be supported stably up to spin speeds of 2100 rpm. >> Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 9 08:40:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA21122; Fri, 9 May 1997 08:37:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:37:06 -0700 Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705091536.IAA16224 denmark.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Levitron in action color video Resent-Message-ID: <"B1GY61.0.u95.XIqSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jean-Louis Naudin wrote: >Hi All, > >If you want to see by yourself, a magnetic levitation device in action ( in >ambiant temperature.....). >I put a small color video ( 135 ko in AVI, Video for Windows format ) of my >Levitron device. >( weight : 25 gr , 1000 RPM, 40 mm above the base during 2mn30 ) >So, you will be able to dream about some antigravity devices floating above >the ground with this video..... > >You can download this video at : > > http://members.aol.com/overunity2/images/lvtclr.avi > >Have fun, >Truly, > >Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) >Email : JNaudin509 aol.com >my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ >WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 > Hi Jean-Louis, Nice Video! Is this the Levitron manufactured by Fascinations in Seattle, Washington as described at you web site? What is the explaination for the need for the spin rate above 1000 rpm for the top to levitate? Is the top a conventional magnet floating over a conventional magnet base? How do you spin it up to 1000 rpm? To order a unit, do you know their address/phone number and the cost of the unit? Best Regards, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 9 09:07:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA21491; Fri, 9 May 1997 09:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705091601.JAA25635 denmark.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Update about : The David Hamel Scalar Generator Resent-Message-ID: <"2EVVh2.0.jF5.2gqSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jean-Louis Naudin wrote: >Hi All, > >I have updated "The David Hamel Scalar Generator" with new schemes and some >details about the magnet polarity. > >You will find these informations at : > > http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/hamscgen.htm > >I hope that this information will interest you, > >Sincerely, > >Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) >Email : JNaudin509 aol.com >my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ >WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 > Hi Jean-Louis, I got Sinclair's and Hamel's planet Kladen videos but didn't see any working units for Hamel's designs beside the table top spinning ball. What do you think the problem is to get a generator or levitation unit built? I wonder why Hamel doesn't build another of his orginal working units that flew away and hook up a radio control system so it doesn't fly away? Best Regards, Micahel Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 9 10:52:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA14867; Fri, 9 May 1997 10:49:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:49:03 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 13:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970509134639_1556432917 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: mrandall earthlink.net Subject: Re : Re: Update about : The David Hamel Scalar Generator Resent-Message-ID: <"ylpS23.0.De3.EEsSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 09/05/1997 17:06:11 , Michael Randall wrote : << What do you think the problem is to get a generator or levitation unit built? I wonder why Hamel doesn't build another of his orginal working units that flew away and hook up a radio control system so it doesn't fly away? Best Regards, Micahel Randall >> Dear Michael, As far as I am concerned, I think that we must be careful with the Hamel story.... I think that this story is worth to pay attention because it is a possible unexplored part of the electromagnetism, but all technical speculations (today) must be carefully checked with serious experiments. I am working in synergy with Dan LaRochelle about the Hamel scalar generator and the Hamel antigravity device. But today, the only test that I have made is the Hamel spinning top.... Dan has visited Hamel home and he has seen many of his devices working, David Hamel is currently building a 40 feet flying saucer prototype and it should be done some time next year (1998). Dan and myself are currently working to design a real prototype easy to build by anyone ( I hope... ) for testing the Hamel theory..... As I said before, this a way to explore but many points are weird, unknown, and beyond the normal physics..... I hope that they will begin clearer soon....stay tuned... I hope that these informations will clarify some points..... Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 9 13:52:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA07827; Fri, 9 May 1997 13:49:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 13:49:08 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 16:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970509164025_20246116 emout20.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: jdecker keelynet.com Subject: The Hamel Antigravity device scheme Resent-Message-ID: <"jUWl91.0.5w1.3tuSp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, You will find in my web server the Hamel Antigravity device scheme at : http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/hamelfs.htm This is a weird device, not tested by myself, today....but interesting to study..... Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 9 17:35:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA06738; Fri, 9 May 1997 17:32:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:32:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3373C212.4531 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:02:18 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: <01BC5B95.52B04630 ristra.ucdavis.edu> <33771b8b.16629536@mail.eisa.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EvDX12.0.7f1.v8ySp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > On Thu, 8 May 1997 09:50:54 -0700, Dan Quickert wrote: > [snip] > >>From my observations putting many in series may not be that simple, because > >the ramps seem to act as a speed governor - that is, if you ram a ball in > >very quickly it will actually be slowed down shortly after entry. > [snip] > Interesting, where does the kinetic energy go? > > Robin van Spaandonk Hi Robin, Tries to push the magnet assys forward? -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 9 19:14:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA09328; Fri, 9 May 1997 19:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970509185529.00a8d11c mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 19:03:50 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Vym8J2.0.fH2.pUzSp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: YES At 11:50 AM 5/8/97 GMT, you wrote: >On Tue, 06 May 1997 18:57:16 -0700, Epitaxy wrote: >[snip] >>pumping" like the TOMI device did. I have constructed 2 identical ramps >>yet I was unable to close the loop. The possibility of an egineering error >>on my part still remains. >[snip] >Does "2 identical ramps" mean two "side-by-side" setups, going in >opposite directions, with the exit from each connected to the entrance >of the other? > > >Robin van Spaandonk >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on >temperature. >"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." >PS - no SPAM thanks! >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 9 23:59:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA10767; Fri, 9 May 1997 23:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:57:13 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970510025448_-231359225 emout13.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: mrandall earthlink.net, gwatson@microtronics.com.au Subject: Re : Re: Levitron in action color video Resent-Message-ID: <"hSor-2.0.5e2.6n1Tp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 09/05/1997 19:02:45 , Michael Randall wrote : << Hi Jean-Louis, Nice Video! Is this the Levitron manufactured by Fascinations in Seattle, Washington as described at you web site? What is the explaination for the need for the spin rate above 1000 rpm for the top to levitate? Is the top a conventional magnet floating over a conventional magnet base? How do you spin it up to 1000 rpm? To order a unit, do you know their address/phone number and the cost of the unit? Best Regards, Michael Randall >> Hi Michael, The Levitron floats by using the lifting power produced by opposed magnets. The "Top" magnet is stabilized in space by the gyroscopic effect spinning produces. As the top slows down, due to the air's frictional force, it begins to lose its gyroscopic stability and will start to wobble just like an ordinary top. After further slowing, the top will reach a point where it becomes unstable, and at which time it will flip over and come to rest on the base. The 1000 RPM is obtained with the forefinger and the thumb. You need to exert a slight downward pressure while holding the top tightly. Then, wind-up by rotating thumb backwrds slightly.....After you have successfully spun the top on the lifter plate, the next challenge is to lift it up to its floating height which is approximately 1.25" above the surface. This is accomplished by slowly raising the top with the lifter plate. The top will continue to seek the center of the base below the lifter plate while it is being lifted. If the top is too heavy it will not lift off the plate. If the top is too light it will pop off the lifter plate as you approach the proper floating height and fall off to one side. The weight of the top can be adjusted by adding or taking off some of the washers provided..... You will find more informations about the Levitron at : http://www.lauralee.com/levitron.htm http://www.cnl.salk.edu/~yo/mathemusement/levitron/ In Billb Eskimo : you have some documents about the Levitron For the complete technical information you will find the patent of Levitron at : http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5404062 ( see the abstract bellow) I hope that these informations will interest you, Nice to speak with you soon, Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- 5404062 : Magnetic levitation device and method ------------------------------------------------------------------------ INVENTORS:Hones; Edward W., Los Alamos, NM Hones; William G., Seattle, WA ABSTRACT: A magnetic levitation device and method of levitating a magnet without mechanical restraining elements are disclosed. The levitation device comprises a first magnet with a polygonal, preferably square, periphery and a substantially planar upper surface magnetized normal thereto and a second magnet with an apparatus to rotate or spin the same. The second magnet is rotated or spun on a lifter plate disposed on the upper surface of the first magnet with like polar orientations of the magnets in confronting relation. When the lifter plate is raised above the first magnet the spinning second magnet levitates above the first magnet and the lifter plate and the lifter plate is removed from between the first and second magnets. The weight of the second magnet may be varied to change the height above the first magnet at which the second magnet levitates. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 10 08:57:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA11742; Sat, 10 May 1997 08:54:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:54:36 -0700 Message-Id: <199705101554.IAA04217 popmail.UCSD.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Bart Simon" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:56:21 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: More CF Bashing I presume Reply-to: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <9705081850.ZM20546 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> from "John Steck" at May 8, 97 06:50:43 pm X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Resent-Message-ID: <"DBo751.0.Ot2.xe9Tp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, I ran across a reference to some new book by A.K. Dewdney called "Yes, We Have No Neutrons: An Eye-Opening Tour Through the Twists and Turns of Bad Science". Apparently there's stuff about CF - more pathologizing I presume... but you never know. Its not in our library here yet, has anyone on Vortex looked at it? cheers, Bart Simon (bssimon helix.ucsd.edu0 ============================================ Bart Simon Dept. of Sociology/Science Studies-0533 University of California at San Diego (UCSD) 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA, 92093-0533 phone: 619-534-0491/fax: 619-534-3388 =========================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 10 10:51:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA18926; Sat, 10 May 1997 10:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:48:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970510134734_169080031 emout13.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Mag o/u: Why Ramps? Resent-Message-ID: <"Rida1.0.ed4.zJBTp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Why ramps? I would like to propose a whole new approach to the mag ramp effort. First, why ramps. The ramp converts magnetic energy into gravitational potential energy, which then converts into kinetic energy with the drop and exit. However, this whole intermediate step, with its drop-and-exit problems, could be skipped, could it not? Instead, keep all the ramp sections horizontal (level). Then, instead of converting magnetic energy into gravitational potential energy, convert into increased kinetic energy (the hoped-for outcome anyway). With this increased KE, then shoot the ball into the next "ramp" section, and the next, etc., each time picking up additional KE, but without the difficult (but entrancing!) up-the-ramp rises. If the ball enters the first horizontal "ramp" from a dead start, and it is followed by an exit and entrance into the next horizontal "ramp" with non-zero velocity, etc., then you're close to being home free. A few of those, and it's "close the loop" time. BTW, if that doesn't work, then I don't think the former can either, as all we've done with this alternative is to remove one step (the intermediate conversion to grav potential energy) from the mag energy to kinetic energy conversion process. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 10 13:44:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA07235; Sat, 10 May 1997 13:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:42:05 -0700 Message-Id: <199705102042.NAA03249 netserve.kfalls.net> X-Sender: me2 kfalls.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ME2 KFALLS.NET (Don Evans) Resent-Message-ID: <"ypbbe.0.ym1.ErDTp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Unidentified subject! Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: can a magnet be made in the shape of a ball with all one pole facing outward and the other pole facing inwards and if so do you know where a person might find such a magnet thanks for the help Don From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 10 15:26:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA19663; Sat, 10 May 1997 15:23:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:23:24 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC5D55.D7198AF0 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: locating materials Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:21:21 -0700 Encoding: 18 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"l0v1w2.0.4p4.RLFTp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I just ran across an online version of the Thomas Register of Manufacturers. It's a searchable index of North American manufacturers of virtually everything. Includes descriptions, links to Web pages, some online catalogs. http://www.thomasregister.com/ You have to register, but it's free and they don't ask for much information. They have a "don't send me advertising" option. search on "permanent magnets" gets 154 listings. Many of the manufacturers don't sell to the public, they're not set up to do business that way. But some will. It can help to tell 'em you're the research department of a new startup company wanting small quantities for prototyping. Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 10 16:01:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA22820; Sat, 10 May 1997 15:59:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:59:12 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:04:36 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Related to monoploes Resent-Message-ID: <"z4lgt.0.Ua5._sFTp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >can a magnet be made in the shape of a ball with all one pole facing outward >and the other pole facing inwards and if so do you know where a person might >find such a magnet thanks for the help Don Sorry, you can't do that without a monopole handy. The sum of flux out of any closed surface is exactly equal to the sum of of the flux into that closed surface, the net flux is zero. Another way to say this is B dot dS = 0. This is equivalent in all respects to saying that each line of magnetic flux is a closed loop at all times. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 10 18:53:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA06578; Sat, 10 May 1997 18:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3375257D.28FD skylink.net> Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:48:45 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Related to monoploes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Um3YS.0.ic1.YNITp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > Sorry, you can't do that without a monopole handy. The sum of flux out of > any closed surface is exactly equal to the sum of of the flux into that > closed surface, the net flux is zero. Another way to say this is B dot dS > = 0. This is equivalent in all respects to saying that each line of > magnetic flux is a closed loop at all times. Horace. You've seen an article about the recent experiments by Mikhailov, repeating the experiments of Ehrenhaft. Magnetic charge is no a fantasy. Unfortunately, neither are the Maxwellian thought police. A weber a coulomb. What else do we need? Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 10 19:11:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA07399; Sat, 10 May 1997 19:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:10:30 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mag o/u: Why Ramps? Resent-Message-ID: <"x1hlh2.0.Xp1.tbITp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 1:47 PM 5/10/97, Puthoff aol.com wrote: >Why ramps? > >I would like to propose a whole new approach to the mag ramp effort. > >First, why ramps. The ramp converts magnetic energy into gravitational >potential energy, which then converts into kinetic energy with the drop and >exit. >However, this whole intermediate step, with its drop-and-exit problems, could >be skipped, could it not? > [snip] >If the ball enters the first horizontal "ramp" from a dead start, and it is >followed by an exit and entrance into the next horizontal "ramp" with >non-zero velocity, etc., then you're close to being home free. [snip] > >Hal Puthoff Sounds like a really good idea to avoid gravity wells. I have built many combined magnetic/graitational field pendula that worked many times longer, and oscillated much faster, when the magnetic field was present than not. It is deceiving and novel looking because it is not obvious that the initial magnetic potential energy created by the initial location of the pendulum within the magnetic field is typically much larger that the initial gravitational potential energy. Also, it is important to note that, by Newton's laws, it takes no energy to move from one location to another, only temporarily borrowed energy for the acceleration. However, the roling ball experiment should compensate for the amount of potential energy the ball may have in its starting position due to magnetic attraction. This potential could be deceiving in that the ball should be able to end up higher than its starting postition, even when the process is not repeatable in the sense of adding any energy to the ball, thus when it is impossible to close the loop. One way to limit the effect of the initial magnetic potential energy is to make the track flat and place it on a pivot. Start with the rail in an uphill position (right end down.) Then place the ball against a right angle barrier (no notch) at the beginning like so: d1 ________M2___________M1_______o| A ___ - rail (rigid, no bends either up and down or sideways) Mi - magnetic device i o - ball | - ball retaining back board A - fulcrum point for tilting the rail It is assumed that an adequate rollout is provided such that the ball will not ever fall off the ramp. Very gradually, preferably using a thumb screw or other similar device, raise the ball end of the rail until the ball is attracted into device M1. If the ramp is then going downhill when this happens move M1 closer to the ball.) Measure the highest elevation the ball achieves with M2 present and without. I would use lateral markings on the side of the rail and a video camera to measure the distance traveled on the rail and then measure the rise of the end of the rail and ratios to determine the final ball rise. If the ball can make it through two devices (M1 and M2,) regardless of the position of M2, and end at a doubly higher position than going through just one device (M1 only,) then there is some evidence of o-u work being done on the ball. If this can not be done, then there is no evidence of any non-conservative work being achieved at a level sufficient to keep a ball rolling. At the distance to M1 the ball resides initially (d1) it must have some magnetic attraction to M1 giving it a magnetic potential energy U1. Having a longer distance to M2, there is an additional magnetic potential, U2, of the ball due to M2. It is clear that U2 Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:14:59 PST8PDT Subject: Casimir force repulsive? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: Resent-Message-ID: <"SlfoA2.0.6v1.ykITp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts! My physics prof. mentioned to me the other day that the Casimir force is repulsive between a conductor and a non-conductor. I don't understand how this can be. Anyone here know why it works that way? Regards, JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 10 19:23:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA08453; Sat, 10 May 1997 19:21:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:21:08 -0700 Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:20:41 -0700 Message-Id: <199705110220.TAA18183 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Related to monoploes Resent-Message-ID: <"4KhtY2.0._32.JqITp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> Sorry, you can't do that without a monopole handy. The sum of flux out of >> any closed surface is exactly equal to the sum of of the flux into that >> closed surface, the net flux is zero. So, what happens as you tile a sphere with tiny magnets with their poles facing outward, and then let the size of the tiles approach zero? Does that ball have zero magnetic field at all locations despite the atoms at the surface of the ball being trapped with their magnetic fields pointing outward? Just a thought, but it seems to me that the ball would have a field all around it that was of one pole, but I would want to try it since I see your point. The thing is, if the field cancels from either the inner region of the magnet on the same side, or from the inner side of the magnet on the other side of the ball, both of those are further than is the outer surface of the magnet, so it seems that there would still be a field right next to the magnets surface. And if that surface forms the entire ball, what then? Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 10 19:25:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA08871; Sat, 10 May 1997 19:23:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:23:05 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:28:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Gravity, electromagnetism, Maxwell Resent-Message-ID: <"4p7vS.0.TA2.8sITp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 6:48 PM 5/10/97, Robert Stirniman wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> Sorry, you can't do that without a monopole handy. The sum of flux out of >> any closed surface is exactly equal to the sum of of the flux into that >> closed surface, the net flux is zero. Another way to say this is B dot dS >> = 0. This is equivalent in all respects to saying that each line of >> magnetic flux is a closed loop at all times. > >Horace. You've seen an article about the recent experiments >by Mikhailov, repeating the experiments of Ehrenhaft. >Magnetic charge is no a fantasy. >Unfortunately, neither are the Maxwellian thought police. >A weber a coulomb. What else do we need? > >Regards, >Robert Stirniman Maybe we need an ehrenhaft? Uh oh! I better hide. I thought the Maxwellian Thought Police were imaginary! I think B dot dS = 0 is totally equivalent to the statement there is no monopole. Ignoring the question of whether this Maxwell's equation is indeed a law -- if it is a law, it is equivalent to the statement that there are no free monopoles. All this is a consequence of the postulates (assumptions) of Maxwell's laws, which of course would need to be revised in the face of the discovery of a monopole. The existence or not of such a particle is a fact of nature while the rest are assumptions. It is interresting that monompoles could only exist in pairs and be consistent with B dot dS = 0 if they at all times occupied exacly the *same point* in space. Otherwise, you could always have a way to place the envelope S around one and exclude the other. However, this being the case that they are always co-centered, they would therefore then always represent a scalar field, unless acted upon by a charged particle or EM field in the viciniy. In regard to the above issues, Robert Stirniman brought to my attention some time ago "Advanced Electromagnetism Foundations, Theories and Applications", edited by Terrence W. Barrett and Dale M. Grimes, World Scientific Publishing, 1995. Of particular interest is the article "Six experiments with Magnetic Charge", V.F. Mikhailov, p. 593 ff., which discusses a modern look at the work of Felix Eherenhaft (1879-1952). Eherenhaft performed the magnetic equivalence of a Millikan's oil drop experiment in the hopes of isolating magnetic monopoles and measuring magnetic charge. Surprisingly, Eherenhaft had positive results, obtaining a value for magnetic charge in the range of 10^-9 to 10^-14 Gauss*cm^2. Because this did not agree with Dirac's theorized value of 3.29x10^-8 gauss*cm^2, interest waned in Ehrenhafts work. Mikhailov created 10^-5 to 10^-6 cm dia. ferromagnetic aerosols by electrospark sputtering. This was accomplished by use of current interrupter iron contacts in argon at one atmosphere. Helmholtz coils provided a uniform magnetic field. The falling aerosol was placed in an intense light beam and viewed with a microscope. The initial experiment showed a roughly equal number of both N and S monopoles. Switching the field of the Helmholz coils reversed the lateral motion of the magnetically charged particles. It was noted that increasing *either* magnetic field intensity or light intensity increased the lateral rate of travel. Many of the particles were electrically and magnetically charged, permiting a comparison of the electrostatic quantum to the magnetic quantum of charge. Mikhailov found agreement with Eherenhaft that the quantum of magnetic charge is g = (a)(e)/6 = (1/3)(a^2)(gD) = 5.84x10^-13 gauss*cm^2, where Gd is the charge of Dirac's theoretical monopole, a is the fine structure constant a = (1/137). The monopoles of Eherenhaft and Mikhailov are not monopole particles in the conventional sense, however. Mikhailov states: "Magnetic charges (monopoles) are experimentally observed only in the presence of two components: light and ferromagnetic particles. It seems therefore, that magnetic charges are created a a consequence of of an interaction between photons ans ferromagnetic particles, and moreover, such charges cannnot exists without these physical conditions: without light a particle loses magnetic charge almost instantaneously." Some observations and experiment suggestions in regard to Mikhailov's experiments: 1. Lateral motion observed in a uniform magnetic field, regadless of light direction, appears to be a clear violation of Maxwell's laws, regardless of other conclusions drawn by Mikhailov. The existence of a monopole of course also denies the law being the orginal subject, namely B dot dS = 0. 2. The magnetic charge, though apparently produced in pairs, is not conservative in that the dual requirements for existence imply you can separate the N and S particles, turn off the light which sustains, say, the S particles, leaving only the N particles. (Save a sufficient number and you can lift off the North magnetic pole! 8^) 3. There might just possibly be a convenient way for amateurs to experiment with this. There now exist ferrofluids which could be used in Millikan style experiments. Since sputtering would not be involved, it might be necessary to artificially charge the drops when atomizing the ferrofluid. Bill Beaty posted 9/23/96 that ferrofluid might be available from Ferrofluidics Inc. I checked and found , email: , phone 603-883-9800. They sell 30 ml kits for prototyping loudspeakers. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 10 19:47:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA11386; Sat, 10 May 1997 19:46:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:46:09 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:51:31 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mag o/u: Why Ramps? Resent-Message-ID: <"MldV-2.0.qn2.mBJTp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 6:10 PM 5/10/97, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >It is clear that U2position is further away from M2 than M1. this should have said it is clear that the *force* on the ball due to M2 is less than the force on the ball due to M1. However, the potential energy U2>U1 because the ball is not as depp into the magnetic well of M2. This does not change the analysis significantly because it is assumed U2 ~ U1, because U2 is far away from the ball. > However, the potential from U1 >is borrowed to translate the position of the ball to a point, at distance >d1 from M2, where U2 at a later time equals the initial U1, plus there >should be a small amount of kinetic energy of the ball at that point due to >the initial greater static vs rolling friction of the ball with the rail. It should also be noted that the the energy U2-U1 was also expended. >Any deficit is due to friction and heat losses due to magnetic induction. >The problem of perpetual motion, of course, is to overcome those heat >losses. If the device can not do it then there is no more progress towards >the goal of perpetual motion than that achieved by Swiss watchmakers. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 10 19:50:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA11507; Sat, 10 May 1997 19:47:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:47:45 -0700 Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:49:38 -0700 Message-Id: <199705110249.TAA03458 netserve.kfalls.net> X-Sender: me2 kfalls.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ME2 KFALLS.NET (Don Evans) Subject: magnetic ball Resent-Message-ID: <"4-WO72.0.jp2.GDJTp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: so please let me show my ignorance again if i get a bunch of magnets that are shaped like a icecream cone (sort of like a V ) and the open end (wich is actually solid) is a n pole on all of them and the south pole is at the pointed end and i wired or assembled them all to form a ball say 12" in dia each cone shaped magnet is say 3" long this would leave a hollow 6" sphere) they would no longer be magnetic is this correct. has anyoone ever tried anything like this. this is something i have been thinking of trying to build for an qizmo i am tinkering with thanks for your help Don From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 10 20:17:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA12937; Sat, 10 May 1997 20:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 20:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:12:33 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Related to monoploes Resent-Message-ID: <"RscQh1.0.2A3.0WJTp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:20 PM 5/10/97, Ross Tessien wrote: >>Horace Heffner wrote: >>> Sorry, you can't do that without a monopole handy. The sum of flux out of >>> any closed surface is exactly equal to the sum of of the flux into that >>> closed surface, the net flux is zero. > >So, what happens as you tile a sphere with tiny magnets with their poles >facing outward, and then let the size of the tiles approach zero? Actually the tiles don't have to approach zero size, it is the gap widths that must -> 0. If there are gaps the flux will tend be going through them. > >Does that ball have zero magnetic field at all locations despite the atoms >at the surface of the ball being trapped with their magnetic fields pointing >outward? I think what will happen will be similar to the effect of forcing two like poles together in very wide magnets. The field is diminished in the magnets. Permanent damage to the magnet can occur. It is interesting that in the case of flat magnets the field lines can be forced out sideways, preserving some of the outer flux. Not so the sphere. The flux lines should be driven to nearly net zero. Sounds like a cool experiment, but a good way to wreck some magnets. > >Just a thought, but it seems to me that the ball would have a field all >around it that was of one pole, but I would want to try it since I see your >point. The thing is, if the field cancels from either the inner region of >the magnet on the same side, or from the inner side of the magnet on the >other side of the ball, both of those are further than is the outer surface >of the magnet, so it seems that there would still be a field right next to >the magnets surface. And if that surface forms the entire ball, what then? > >Ross Tessien I think the flux leaving the surface of the sphere will exactly equal the flux returning. I suspect that small reversed domains will form over the surface of the sphere if the sphere is very uniform. Otherwise, the magnets will break down at a macro level in thin or weak places. However, this experiment is interesting, in that this might provide a macro-model of the effect I was talking about earlier that generates what appear to be circular field lines out in space around a wire with current in it. The field lines entering and leaving the outer surface of the sphere would be highly compressed against each other and would cancel (creating a scalar field in that region.) Where loops in the external flux that is tangent to the sphere occurs, the flux lines could align and create a circular flux line. One way to encourage this alignment might be to place a magnet into the sphere before closing. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 10 20:20:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA15003; Sat, 10 May 1997 20:18:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 20:18:59 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:24:22 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: magnetic ball Resent-Message-ID: <"TnlPM2.0.Hg3.YgJTp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 7:49 PM 5/10/97, Don Evans wrote: >so please let me show my ignorance again if i get a bunch of magnets that >are shaped like a icecream cone (sort of like a V ) and the open end (wich >is actually solid) is a n pole on all of them and the south pole is at the >pointed end and i wired or assembled them all to form a ball say 12" in dia >each cone shaped magnet is say 3" long this would leave a hollow 6" sphere) >they would no longer be magnetic is this correct. has anyoone ever tried >anything like this. this is something i have been thinking of trying to >build for an qizmo i am tinkering with > >thanks for your help Don There is a small possibility you might end up with some amount of field that appears to be tangent to the sphere but out away from the sphere, in some locations. The sphere should be able to attract iron, for example, though, by reversing the domains in the sphere not immediately near the point of contact with the iron. Might be permanently harmfull to the magnet. It would be interesting to see what a finite element analysis program would do with this problem. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 11 00:30:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA05253; Sun, 11 May 1997 00:28:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:28:16 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 03:27:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970511032737_121049503 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Casimir force repulsive? Resent-Message-ID: <"ouvYH.0._H1.FKNTp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 5/11/97 2:17:43 AM, you wrote: <> Never heard that as a blanket statement, and I would doubt it. The Casimir force is quite geometry dependent, being attractive for plates, wedges, cylinders, but repulsive for spheres. As for plates, the related van der Waals attraction can become repulsive for magnetic materials; but never heard of the case cited. I would ask for a reference. Could be some interesting applications if true. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 11 01:14:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA23227; Sun, 11 May 1997 01:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:08:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:07:38 PST8PDT Subject: Re: Casimir force repulsive? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: Resent-Message-ID: <"8fTq93.0.rg5.wvNTp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > As for plates, the related van der > Waals attraction can become repulsive for magnetic materials; but never heard > of the case cited. I would ask for a reference. > > Hal Puthoff Will do. Perhaps I misunderstood him. In any case, I'll check it out. JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 11 02:53:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA07823; Sun, 11 May 1997 02:40:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:40:03 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 05:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970511052909_2051611937 emout01.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: jdecker keelynet.com, gwatson@microtronics.com.au, teague@es.co.nz, Byrun_Fox mindlink.bc.ca, mrandall@earthlink.net Subject: Hamel "antigravity" device animation Resent-Message-ID: <"bQ9PO2.0.-v1.mFPTp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, If you want to see the Hamel "Antigravity (?)" device virtualy running.... You will find a detailled animation of this weird device at : http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/hamelfs.htm Have fun and a good week-end.... :-) Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 11 03:45:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA12585; Sun, 11 May 1997 03:35:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 03:35:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3375A0AB.1E3 skylink.net> Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 03:34:19 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Magnetic Charge Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EB_Pb.0.W43.a3QTp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Magnetic Charge. Don't leave home without it. ============================== References: F. Ehrenhaft, Phys Z, Vol 31 Page 478, 1930 F. Ehrenhaft, "The Magnetic Current", Science Vol 94 pp 232-233. September 1941 F. Ehrenhaft, "New Experiments about the Magnetic Current", Physical Review, Vol 65 pp 62-63, 1944 K. Joseph, "Magnetic Currents - The Monopole?", Electric Spacecraft Journal, Issue #3 pp 18-23, January 1992. V.F. Mikhailov, "Six Experiments with Magnetic Charge", Advanced Electromagnetism, Editors: Terrence W. Barrett, and Dale M. Grimes, World Scientific Publishing. 1995. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 11 07:32:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA08012; Sun, 11 May 1997 07:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 07:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 06:36:08 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Gravity, electromagnetism, Maxwell Resent-Message-ID: <"sMJJt1.0.6z1.lWTTp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Earlier I wrote: "Some observations and experiment suggestions in regard to Mikhailov's experiments: 1. Lateral motion observed in a uniform magnetic field, regadless of light direction, appears to be a clear violation of Maxwell's laws, regardless of other conclusions drawn by Mikhailov." This was poorly worded and misleading. The word "regadless" should have been "independent", i.e.: "Some observations and experiment suggestions in regard to Mikhailov's experiments: 1. Lateral motion observed in a uniform magnetic field, *independent* of light direction, appears to be a clear violation of Maxwell's laws, regardless of other conclusions drawn by Mikhailov." The lateral motion was bi-directional, with about half the particles going one way and the other half the other way, with direction not being due to the pressure of light because the lateral motion was independent of what direction the light came from. Also, this was true whether the vertical motion was primarily due to gravity or due to electrostatic field gradient. The direction of travel of the two groups was reversible by reversing the magnetic field. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 12 00:20:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA14170; Mon, 12 May 1997 00:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:13:28 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 03:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970512001514_188250878 emout09.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolytic Mills Cell Replications? Resent-Message-ID: <"Vs-c41.0.JT3.KCiTp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 97-05-05 13:45:21 EDT, you write: << The BlackLight discussion substantially misrepresented the data << and conclusions contained in the NASA report. Michael, could you please post the data and conclusions that are misrepresented? Thanks in advance. Vince << Michael J. Schaffer << General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA <> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 12 08:26:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA00954; Mon, 12 May 1997 08:21:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:21:59 -0700 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:39:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Jason Aldo To: Don Evans Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! In-Reply-To: <199705102042.NAA03249 netserve.kfalls.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Ew4VV1.0.qE.MMpTp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 10 May 1997, Don Evans wrote: > can a magnet be made in the shape of a ball with all one pole facing outward > and the other pole facing inwards and if so do you know where a person might > find such a magnet thanks for the help Don > Don, I have a copy of a patent for a levitation device which supposedly interacts which the earth's magnetic field to cause levitation. It involves using an electromagnet which is wound in such a configuration as to have the outside be all north and the inside south. It seems to be the electromagnet eqivalent of the magnet you are looking for. I can get you the patent number if your interested. I don't have it handy right now. What are you planning to do with such a magnet?> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 12 11:25:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA00882; Mon, 12 May 1997 11:06:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:06:37 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:02:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970512140252_-264708942 emout19.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: ME2 kfalls.net, pa920493@oak.cats.ohiou.edu Subject: The Wachspress Free flying magnetic levitator Resent-Message-ID: <"xDVp61.0.VD.emrTp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dans un courrier date du 12/05/1997 16:25:33 , vous avez ecrit : << On Sat, 10 May 1997, Don Evans wrote: > can a magnet be made in the shape of a ball with all one pole facing outward > and the other pole facing inwards and if so do you know where a person might > find such a magnet thanks for the help Don > Don, I have a copy of a patent for a levitation device which supposedly interacts which the earth's magnetic field to cause levitation. It involves using an electromagnet which is wound in such a configuration as to have the outside be all north and the inside south. It seems to be the electromagnet eqivalent of the magnet you are looking for. >> Hi Don, Look at this patent bellow, you will find all informations for building a remote controled magnetic levitation device.... :-) http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4874346 I hope that this information will help you, Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4874346 : Free flying magnetic levitator ------------------------------------------------------------------------ INVENTORS:Wachspress; How, San Francisco, CA 94109 ABSTRACT: A free flying magnetic levitator that is self stabilized and fully maneuverable for magnetic structure establishing an odd number of poles for interaction with another magnetic field having an even number of poles to produce linear motion instead of rotation without a guideway. Longitudinally wound coils produce the odd pole magnetic field for maximizing coupling with an even pole field such as the magentic field of the earth. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 12 12:56:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA28443; Mon, 12 May 1997 12:49:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:49:43 -0700 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:49:35 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: ignore this test message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-aHRO3.0.Ky6.LHtTp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Someday someone may hide secret info inside a test message. Not this time though. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 12 18:39:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA19871; Mon, 12 May 1997 18:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3377C217.7214 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:51:27 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Simple Ou Device Offline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jYwtq.0.7s4.TAyTp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Sorry to say, but my patent attorney has pulled the plug. By the way, I closed the loop late last night! It is sort of ramp based. Not much power yet. It has been running (self powered) for 12 hours now. Must close now. I will post again as soon as posible. To all thouse of you who have built ramps, all I can say is get three linked ramps working and then study the second (middle) ramp. Think outside the square. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 12 20:22:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA28145; Mon, 12 May 1997 20:12:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 20:12:45 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 20:00:00 PST Subject: O/U Device & Gary Effect Message-ID: <19970302.200003.3174.0.tv juno.com> References: <3377C217.7214 microtronics.com.au> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4,7-39 From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan) Resent-Message-ID: <"eY3NO2.0.ft6.hmzTp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Since Mr. Watson's device is apparently based on the same principle as that of Wesley Gary (1874), is it not reasonable to re-examine this remarkable but ignored invention from the 19th centrury ? Even though the inventions of Wesley Gary and Greg Watson generate only flee power, they should not be dismissed as just toys. The GARY EFFECT (or Gary-Watson Effect) can certtainly be enhanced to any level of power when it is better understood. Consider the invention of Hans Coler as a possible example of such advancement. I think Beatty's electronic think-tank is working ! Tim Vaughan (tv juno.com) On 5/5/97 Greg Watson wrote: >My method of generation the graduated B field for the ramp and exit is >very different. Its the exit where its all at. Side to side balancing >of the magnetic forces is critical. The ball must always stay balanced >or on the "Neutral Line" as Wesley Gary would say. And then on 5/13/97 Greg wrote: > I closed the loop late last night! It is sort of ramp >based. Not much power yet. It has been running (self powered) for 12 >hours now. >To all thouse of you who have built ramps, all I can say is get three >linked ramps working and then study the second (middle) ramp. Think >outside the square. > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 >Home/Office/Fax > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 12 21:32:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA10511; Mon, 12 May 1997 21:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705130419.VAA18855 norway.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: gwatson microtronics.com.au From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Simple Ou Device Offline Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"FCyH-.0.5a2.lq-Tp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg, Congradulations on closing the loop! Do you plan on doing demonstrations of the unit in your local area? Looking forward to hear more from you. Best Regards, Michael Randall > >Sorry to say, but my patent attorney has pulled the plug. > >By the way, I closed the loop late last night! It is sort of ramp >based. Not much power yet. It has been running (self powered) for 12 >hours now. Must close now. > >I will post again as soon as posible. > >To all thouse of you who have built ramps, all I can say is get three >linked ramps working and then study the second (middle) ramp. Think >outside the square. > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 12 23:24:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA07995; Mon, 12 May 1997 23:16:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:16:54 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970512162620.00a15c00 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:12:23 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Quinney Subject: Test...ignore.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"X34L53.0.ry1.MT0Up" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I I I I From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 05:41:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA18944; Tue, 13 May 1997 05:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 05:30:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970513082740_315086138 emout10.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Dewdney's Bad Science Book Resent-Message-ID: <"QvDpd.0.td4.fx5Up" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A couple of days ago, Bart Simon asked whether anyone on Vortex-L had looked at A. K. Dewdney's new book, *Yes, We Have No Neutrons: An Eye-Opening Tour Through the Twists and Turns of Bad Science*. The book was published a few weeks ago by Wiley, in hardcover, price $22.95. I haven't read it all yet, but it looks as if it's based entirely on previous accounts, with no new material added by Dewdney himself. In eight chapters, Dewdney describes eight examples of what he judges to be bad science. There is a chapter on "The Rays That Never Were" (N-rays), a chapter on SETI, and a chapter on "The Unconcious Con of Sigmund Freud." The opening paragraphs of the book are about cold fusion, and Dewdney says that it inspired the title of his book. There is a chapter about cold fusion, "Genie in a Jar: The 'Discovery' of Cold Fusion." Dewdney thinks that cold fusion is a mistake, but he isn't certain of that, and he isn't as scathingly critical of cold fusion as Taubes was in Bad Science. The final paragraph of Dewdney's chapter on cold fusion says that Fleischmann and Pons are still trying to build "a commercial-scale experimental cold-fusion reactor." Dewdney concludes by asking, "how can we not wish them luck?" Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 07:15:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA05966; Tue, 13 May 1997 07:12:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:12:43 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:12:12 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705131412.JAA27651 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Simple Ou Device Offline Resent-Message-ID: <"V0RsE1.0.5T1.PR7Up" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:51 5/13/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: >Sorry to say, but my patent attorney has pulled the plug. OK, you don't have to tell us anything about the workings of yr device, but... >By the way, I closed the loop late last night! It is sort of ramp >based. Not much power yet. It has been running (self powered) for 12 >hours now. I would appreciate a more detailed description of this phenomena. As I presently understand it, you have a ball or some such roller that moves around in a more-or-less circular path thru a series of magnetic ramps and this roller continues to move around and around by itself...totally unaided by any external means whatsoever (including powered switching mechanisms that you think are not putting energy into the loop)? Again, Greg, don't feel obliged to reveal any details of your invention...just describe in considerable detail what it's _performance_ is. Please include a description of any nearby devices that might be delivering power to the subject device. Along those lines, have you tried moving your invention to a new location to see if it still works? Thanks Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 10:02:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA01383; Tue, 13 May 1997 09:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33789A2C.321B interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:43:24 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple Ou Device Offline References: <3377C217.7214 microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"I7AB63.0.XL.te9Up" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > Hi All, > > Sorry to say, but my patent attorney has pulled the plug. > Screw the attorney, Greg! Get a new one! If your device does what you say, you'll be up for the Nobel prize. Prove it! Publish it! Make an honest VHS tape of the rig running for 5 minutes and a lot of us will buy it! (plus shipping!) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 10:10:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA03215; Tue, 13 May 1997 09:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BC5F7F.A22A55A0 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Simple Ou Device Offline Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:25:43 -0700 Encoding: 27 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"zUIEC1.0.0o.bn9Up" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Congratulations, Greg! I hope the next steps go well for you. Of course, I'm also anxious to hear more about it when you're free to do so. I've just ordered a batch of Neodymium magnets, enough to experiment with multiple ramps. Also hoping to get more lift. It's frustrating how little net power we can get from these ramps. I'm working with the idea of making the field contours less "thick" in the vertical axis, and other ways to shape the field for better exit. If you're still working with a ball rolling on a track, I had these ideas: - try a non-metallic but low-friction track. This would eliminate any opposing induced fields in the track. How about a couple of glass rods? - vary the width of the track relative to the ball. This changes the rotational velocity of the ball; a wider track makes the ball rotate faster but slows its forward velocity. One way to use this is to have a very narrow track for more forward momentum. Then make it wider just at the end; this would slow its forward speed (and start it dropping) but increase the angular velocity, giving it more of a roll over the edge. Once over the edge the track could narrow again. Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 10:30:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA05125; Tue, 13 May 1997 10:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:04:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:30:52 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolytic Mills Cell Replications? Resent-Message-ID: <"3Kizy3.0.dF1.Cy9Up" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 1997 may 5 I wrote: ><< The BlackLight discussion substantially misrepresented the data ><< and conclusions contained in the NASA report. George Holz wrote: >Can you provide any detail on how the NASA report was >misrepresented by BLP? The newer material on the site >looks pretty solid to me as far as experimental verification >of excess power. and Vince Cockeram wrote: > Michael, could you please post the data and conclusions that are >misrepresented? and BlackLight had written the following re the NASA Lewis work: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - NASA Lewis tested a cell identical to that of Thermacore [7] with the exception that it was minus the central cathode. A cell identical to the test cell with heater power only (no electrolysis) was the calibration control and the blank cell with the heater power equal to zero. The test cell was also calibrated "on the fly" by measuring the temperature relative to the blank cell at several values of heater input power of the test cell. "Replication of experiments claiming to demonstrate excess heat production in light water-Ni- K2CO3 electrolytic cells was found to produce an APPARENT excess heat of 11 W maximum, for 60 W electrical power into the cell. Power gains ranged from 1.06 to 1.68." The production of excess energy with a power gain of 1.68 would require 0% Faraday efficiency to account for the observed excess power. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I highlighted the word APPARENT, because in their Report the authors (Niedra, Myers, Fraklick & Baldwin) emphasize that while their data might APPEAR to demonstrate excess heat, they were unable to measure and control for hydrogen-oxygen recombination. From their Abstract: "The apparent excess heat can not be readily explained either in terms of nonlinearity of the cell's thermal conductance at a low temperature differential or by thermoelectric heat pumping. HOWEVER, THE PRESENT DATA DO ADMIT EFFICIENT RECOMBINATION OF DISSOLVED HYDROGEN-OXYGEN AS AN ORDINARY EXPLANATION." [my emphasis] They devote considerable space in the body of the report to this recombination issue. BlackLight dismisses it in one sentence. By a slight replot of the data published in the NASA report, it looks very much like their cell had about 4.6 amp of STEADY recombination. The NASA authors were focusing on a VARIABLE FRACTION of recombination and missed the simpler and more plausible (from an electrochemical point of view) steady recombination. Thus, they did not make as strong a statement about the recombination explanation as their data warrented. On 1996 dec 5 I posted the following to Vortex: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I re-read the NASA report last night. As others on Vortex have already commented, the authors make a point that they did NOT measure electrolysis gas and therefore can not rule out recombination as a possible explanation of the apparent excess heat seen in the 'raw data'. The authors fit a smooth curve through their RAW excess power (Px) points. This curve can be reworked slightly and then approximated as Px = 4.6 V, where V is the cell voltage. Since V did not vary strongly with current, the raw excess power is almost a constant value, independent of both current and voltage. This behavior has been reported previously in Ni-H2O cells. I offer a hypothesis. The number 4.6 in my equation appears as an electric current, but microscopically it can be a reaction rate. (Electrochemists and some plasma physicists quote reaction rates in Amps... 4.6 A = 2.9*10^19 electron transfers per second.) A constant recombination rate is consistent with a rate-limited catalytic surface, in this case one that saturates at about 3*10^19 /s. >From brief discussions I have read in CF papers about the operation of recombiners in closed cells, the presence of a small fortuitous recombination in a cell does not seem unreasonable. When I was running a Patterson cell, I always measured the off gas; recombination was small, but present, on the order of 1 or 2 mA/cm^2. The NASA cell was big and its geometry different, so 4.6 A of recombination might be realistic. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Recombination does not explain away all cold fusion results by any means. Steve Jones is wrong on that point. However, in this particular instance, recombination is the likely explanation. The degree of recombination MUST be measured or otherwise controlled for in electrolytic cold fusion experiments, just as voltage, current and temperatures; otherwise, the experiment is incomplete. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 12:14:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA23996; Tue, 13 May 1997 12:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:04:36 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple Ou Device Offline Resent-Message-ID: <"-mjT-.0.ps5.JfBUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:51 AM 5/13/97, Greg Watson wrote: >Hi All, > >Sorry to say, but my patent attorney has pulled the plug. > >By the way, I closed the loop late last night! It is sort of ramp >based. Not much power yet. It has been running (self powered) for 12 >hours now. Must close now. > [snip] >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax Congratulations Greg! You must be very exited! Truly incredible! As for the patent attorney - not very nice to cut your friendly collaborators out of the loop! 8^) Looking to buy a franchise, Horace From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 12:18:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA23089; Tue, 13 May 1997 11:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:57:04 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT (Part 2) Resent-Message-ID: <"t0-q8.0.Xe5.oYBUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT (Part 2) A RATCHET MECHANISM The field E generated by charge accumulation at x axis ends of the cell is backwards, i.e. contrary to the current flow. The negative side is the left side towards which electrons migrate. It is the E that thwarts the migration. Keeping up the current flow is a matter of keeping the resistance of the loop low to avoid much of an E. E and the ion speeds, and diversion due to collisions, are the primary things that limit the current flow. Despite drift speed limitations, the right-left drift should be finite and continue indefinitely. The electrons should leave the left side of the compartment "hot", i.e. under pressure and with relatively high average speed. Their energy is spent in the resistive loop, heating it, and they return on the right side cool. This is ignoring electrode work functions, etc. However, there is some hope that if the idea is sound then an experiment could be successful because the right to left electrostatic gradient is additive. Therefore, many such cells or an arbitrarily long cell can be strung together to achieve any desired potential. The key to success then is simply obtaining a medium that maintains a supply of ions, electrons or holes, capable of cyclotronic drift at ambient temperatures. The proposed semiconductor medium should fulfill that role nicely. As mentioned earlier, the dopant (e.g. P) atoms tend to trap electrons with a binding energy of about -0.01 eV, which is less than the average thermal kinetic energy of about 0.023 eV for a 270 deg. kelvin operating environment for the germanium crystal lattice. Given no resistance, and thus no potential barrier, significant and measurable currents might be detected from a TEDD cell at an operating B of about 0.5 T and dB/dy of about 0.1 T and dopant density of about 10^22 atoms/m^2. Resistance in the crystal lattice is mostly in the form of heat due to collisions with lattice atoms, and interactions with dopants and impurities. However, in the face of a building reverse electrostatic field barrier built due to resistance to electron flow, the electron interaction with the dopant might provide a ratchet mechanism to permit the gradual overcoming of a potential barrier. As an electron drifts against a potential field, it loses kinetic energy, meaning it cools. This makes the cool electron susceptible to recapture by a dopant atom, especially after the electron cools to below the 0.01 eV binding energy with the dopant. Once captured, the electron is hung on a notch of the ratchet mechanism. It will not get out, nor move backwards, until it has absorbed sufficient thermal energy from the dopant atom and surrounding lattice, etc., to overcome the -0.01 eV well. When it does get out, it then again drifts forward until captured again. If the electron should sufficiently slow, due to Brownian motion, or motion mostly in the z axis, etc., it can drift backwards in a direction with the E field. However, it then should pick up kinetic energy in the xy plane from that backward movement with the E field, and then tend to be much more likely to drift to the left, and to drift left at an increasingly higher rate. The ratchet mechanism should be very fine toothed, in that even in the purest crystals and lowest operating temperatures only a few orbits an be achieved on average. The ratchet tooth height of about 1/2 the average kinetic energy seems about ideal. The ratchet mechanism greatly reduces the current due to the time delay required for the electrons to pick up the required thermal energy while pinned to the dopant atoms. However, it does permit movement of the drift current against a potential barrier, and thus permits useful work to be done at the expense of cooling the crystal lattice. CURRENT CALCULATION WITH R AND E ASSUMED TO BE ZERO Let's assume we can achieve operation in an average of a 0.5 T field with a dB/dy magnetic field gradient of -0.1 T/cm, and a drift electron density of Nd = 10^22/m^3. Assume M* to be about Me/10 = 0.91 10^-31 kg. Elementary charge e = 1.6x10^-19 C. We get the angular frequency Wc = (e)(B)/m* = (1.6x10^-19 C)(0.5 T)/(0.91 10^-31 kg) = 1.76x10^12 rad s^-1, or a frequency: f = 1.4x10^11 sec^-1. Assume average thermal energy 270 deg. kelvin. At 11,600 deg. K/eV that's 0.023 eV. At 1.6x10^-19 J/eV we have an average free electron energy of 3.7x10^-21 J. Assuming we can apply E = 0.5(M*)(Vxyz^2), we have: 3.7x10^-21 k*m^2/s^2 = 0.5(0.91 10^-31 kg)(Vxyz^2) Vxyz = 2.85x10^5 m/s However, 2/3 of v should be in the xy plane and 1/3 in the z plane on average, so we get an xy plane velocity of: Vxy = v = 1.9x10^5 m/s Given a time of 1/f = 1/(1.4x10^11 sec^-1) = 7.14x10^-12 sec, this give an orbital circumference of v/f = (1.9x10^5 m/s)(7.14x10^-12 sec) = 1.36x10^-6 m. This gives an orbital diameter of: Do = 4.33x10^-7 m Given that dB/dy = -0.1 T/cm = -10 T/m, we have delta B = (-10 T/m)(4.33x10^-7 m) = -4.33x10^-6 T across the range of the loop. This means the bottom radius averages roughly about (0.5)(4.33x10^-6 T)/(0.5 T) = 4.33x10^-6 times the top radius in the loop, giving a Td on the x axis of: Td = (4.33x10^-6)(4.33x10^-7 m) = 1.86x10^-12 m. Note that the factor 0.5 is used in order to average the B across the top loop, and to similarly average B over the bottom loop. Given a repetition rate of f = 1.4x10^11 sec^-1 we have a drift rate: Vd = (Td)(f) = (1.86x10^-12 m)(1.4x10^11 sec^-1) = 1.6 m/s. Using Nd = 10^22 m^-3 we get a current density: J = (Vd)(Nd)/(6x10^18 electrons/s/ampere) = (1.6 m/s)(10^22 m^-3)/(6x10^18 electrons/s/ampere) = 2660 amperes/m^2. Assuming a conductor of 10^-3 m on a side, or 10^-6 m^2 cross section, we should get a current of 2.66 mA, assuming no resistance. Checking orbital radius with formula: Ro = (m*)(v)/((q)(B)) = (0.91 10^-31 kg)(1.9x10^5 m/s)/((1.6x10^-19 C)(0.5 T)) Ro = 2.16x10^-7 m Ro = Do/2 = (4.33x10^-7 m)/2 = 2.165x10^-7 check DESIGNS FOR SCALING UP ELECTRIC CURRENT GENERATION FIG. 5 is a drawing of a side view cross section, z axis top to bottom, of a device using two magnets, M1 and M2, where chamber X meets the above description from the viewer's perspective (he is at the bottom looking up,) and chamber Y reverses those flows, etc. -------------------- "Top | N M1 S | of -------------------- "Bottom of page" page" --------- --------- | X | | Y | Electrons flow out of page in X --------- --------- and into page in Y -------------------- | S M2 N | -------------------- 8^) <--------- Viewer FIG. 5 Note that the B field can be further shaped to control dB/dy by contouring the magnets or by ferrous material insertion. There is no limit to the length of the x axis in the configuration shown in FIG. 5. Looking at FIG. 6, X might be a cross section of two sides of a TEDD shaped like a ring. -------------------- -------------------- | N M1 S | | S M1 N | -------------------- -------------------- --------- --------- | X | | X | --------- --------- -------------------- -------------------- | S M2 N | | N M2 S | -------------------- -------------------- FIG. 6 The chamber could be placed to the outside of the ring, as with Y in FIG. 7, or some combination of the two. -------------------- -------------------- | N M1 S | | S M1 N | -------------------- -------------------- --------- --------- | Y | | Y | --------- --------- -------------------- -------------------- | S M2 N | | N M2 S | -------------------- -------------------- FIG. 7 A device might be formed into a coil, as shown in FIG. 8. -------------------- | N M1 S | -------------------- --------- --------- | X | | Y | --------- --------- -------------------- | S M2 N | -------------------- --------- --------- | Q | | R | --------- --------- -------------------- | N M1 S | -------------------- --------- --------- | X | | Y | --------- --------- -------------------- | S M2 N | -------------------- --------- --------- | Q | | R | --------- --------- ... etc. FIG. 8 A TEDD can be built by cutting or etching a chip into a spiral configuration where the magnetic field diminishes radially, as in FIG. 9. Multiple chips can be stacked in three dimensions, the outer end of the spiral of one level attached to the inner end of the next level. | S | \ / \ / \ / \/ ========== <------- Spiral chip layers ---------- | N | | | FIG. 9 Note that the primary objective of the TEDDs in Figures 5 through 9 is electric current generation and not heat. In this case lateral heat flow between opposite conducting chambers X and Y is good, as it helps maintain the thermal energy of the TED. This can be used to advantage to form layered chip technology, as in FIG 10, can be made using ferrous prisms, designated M in FIG 10, between semiconductor layers to shape the magnetic field to achieve the gradient dB/dy. Electrons flow into page in chambers X and out of page in chambers (semiconductors) Y. Each layer can thus be made from a single chip where the x' and Y's are all one continuous piece of semiconductor cut or etched into folds that serpentine back and forth across the chip, and separated by supporting and insulating material. The substrate, if any, would have to be non-conductive. | | | S | ------------------------- M M M M M M M M M XY XY XY XY XY XY XY XY M M M M M M M M M XY XY XY XY XY XY XY XY M M M M M M M M M XY XY XY XY XY XY XY XY M M M M M M M M M XY XY XY XY XY XY XY XY M M M M M M M M M ------------------------- | N | | | FIG. 10 CONCLUSION It seems it may be very worthwhile to test appropriate semiconducting material, in particular very pure Ga doped with P, but also others like Si doped with P, for the TED effect. One possible source of materials for a quick check are Hall effect devices. It is simply necessary to place the semiconductor in a magnet field with appropriate gradient as spelled out above, and measure any persistent current whatsoever. A very sensitive voltmeter or ammeter would be required. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 12:23:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA23048; Tue, 13 May 1997 11:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:53:55 -0700 (PDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: freenrg-L eskimo.com Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 11:30:41 PST Subject: Real over unity devices Message-ID: <19970303.113045.11822.0.tv juno.com> References: <3377C217.7214 microtronics.com.au> <33789A2C.321B interlaced.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,3-12,14,16-17,19,21-23,25,27-32,34-37,40,44,46-48, 50-52,54,57,59-63,66-71 From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan) Resent-Message-ID: <"L5pqK.0.ld5.dYBUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If Greg Watson does not want to tell us how he built his ball and track gizmo, it really does not matter. It will only be a matter of time before these types of magnetic motors are going to be popping up all over the world. I believe this for the following reasons: 1. We now can be more confident than ever that it is possible to build perpetual motion machines and free energy devices of the 2nd kind. (Apparently violating the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics). 2. We know of at least one other well documented device that used the same principle and produced the same magnitude of power output (between flea and mouse), the Gary Magnet Motor. 3. Hans Coler demonstrated that solid state ferromagnetic devices can be made to produce substantial power output (up 5 KW in the most advanced model). He was even given money by the German Government to develop his technology and demonstrate it to Hitler near the end of the war. Fortunately, for the rest of the world at that time, the Third Reich did not get to exploit this technology. 4. Even a low powered self-driven device demonstrates that the 2nd Law does not preclude the possibility of cohering fluctuation energy as predicted by the Nobel Laureate Physicist Percy William Bridgman. (Read his book, THE NATURE OF THERMODYNAMICS) The ferromagnetic ratchet mechanisms at work in these devices are not well understood and so the conditions under which they operate is not clear. However, the invention of Wesley Gary shows that the fluctuation coherence effects are more apparent when there is a transition boundary established in the magnetic material (the Neutral Line). Both Wesley Gary and Hans Coler had devices that were difficult to adjust and depended on proper conditioning of the iron components that cohered the energy. The Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger (current creator) was able to produce substantial power levels. However, the Gary Magnetic motor is probably a better target for someone who would like to demonstrate a free energy device. Once the conditions are better understood, the solid state design like that of Hans Coler should be the best source of energy yet developed ! If you are interested in building a free energy machine, check out the Gary Magnet Motor. I have it posted on the Web at < http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4810 > Gary demonstrated this device to numerous witnesses and openly described its principles and construction as he understood them. Since his device only produced enough power to keep itself moving, (like Watson's ball and track machine), it did not gather the interest that it should have in the 1870's when people were looking for machines that "would do peoples work". To learn more about Hans Coler check out < http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3752/hcoler1.htm >. It is from the British Intelligence report from Project Paperclip. Project Paperclip was the massive gathering of large amounts of technical information from Germany at the end of WWII. Tim From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 12:37:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA23311; Tue, 13 May 1997 11:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:56:55 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT (Part 1) Resent-Message-ID: <"cZFCX3.0.uh5.MZBUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT (Part 1) BACKGROUND AND OBJECTIVE The first and second laws of thermodynamics are assumptions, or at least based upon assumptions. It is possible that multiple assumed "laws" can be mutually inconsistent. In such a case, using logic or an example to produce a more evident inconsistency from the laws is useful in order to see or understand the inconsistency. The primary objective of this paper is to demonstrate an inconsistency between the second law of thermodynamics and the Lorentz force. The Lorentz force is a force exerted on a charged particle, like an electron, moving through an electromagnetic field. Given F, E, v, and B, vectors representing force, electrostatic field strength, velocity, and magnetic field strength, a particle of charge q0 experiences a force given by the Lorentz relation: F = (q0 E) + (q0 V) x B Here x means vector product. This implies, for example, that an electron in the absence of field E, and traveling left to right, perpendicular to a magnetic field B that is out of the page, will experience an upward force (see FIG. 1). This further implies that, if B is out of the page, electrons of a fixed speed will move in counter clockwise circles of fixed radius, ignoring any of their motion in the axis normal to the page. Positrons will move in exactly the same manner, except in a clockwise direction. The radius of such a circle is called the cyclotron radius. Such circular motion, including any additional motion due to a field E, is called here cyclotronic motion. B out of page toward reader ^ | force F | | velocity v (e-)----------> FIG. 1 - Lorentz force (E assumed zero) The circular motion that results has a characteristic frequency f, called the cyclotron frequency, that is independent of speed, because the cyclotron radius is proportional to speed. This frequency is given by: f = q B / (2 Pi m) where m is mass and Pi is 3.14159.... The first law of thermodynamics is the law of conservation of energy: "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed." The second law of thermodynamics is the law of entropy, and is stated in various ways, one of which is:"It is impossible for any cycling device to exchange heat with only a single reservoir and produce work." It is an objective here to define a physically realizable system which for all practical consideration is a closed, isolated system that (1) has no moving parts other than electrons, and no stored potential energy other than the thermal energy of the system and that of a permanent magnetic field, (2) has two compartments, A and B, (3) has a given starting condition that all parts have a uniform temperature of 270 degrees Fahrenheit, (4) spontaneously moves heat from compartment A to compartment B and (5) thus either does useful work during the transfer process (e.g. electrical) and/or makes it possible to use the temperature difference to do useful work while transferring or conducting the heat from compartment B back to compartment A. The looping of heat back to compartment A closes the energy loop and creates "perpetual motion". If a true physical embodiment of (1) through (4) can exist then the second law of thermodynamics is no longer a law; it then needs qualifications or restrictions in scope. It is maybe more accurate to say that such a system would actually fall totally outside the realm of thermodynamics as normally defined, in that it violates what is commonly called the "zeroth law of thermodynamics". This "law" is actually a definition upon which the second law is based, namely: "Two systems which are equal in temperature with a third are equal in temperature with each other." This definition is based on the idea that two systems are equal in temperature if no change in property occurs when they are in thermal contact. This is the characteristic that validates use of mercury thermometers, for example. If a thermometer does not change its physical properties when moved from one compartment to another, then the two compartments must have the same temperature. Inherently assumed in this concept is the notion that a closed isolated system at a uniform temperature can not self modify its own physical properties. If the temperature of such a compartment is verified to be the same as a thermometer by the lack of change of state of the thermometer, and the thermometer is moved to another similar compartment to compare temperatures, and the temperature is found equal, it can only be said the first and second compartments are the same temperature if it is known that the first compartment can not spontaneously change its temperature in the interim. Compartment A --------------- | | | | | Resistor R | Hot (>270 F) | | | | --------------- ^ | | | | | (e-) Heat (e-) | | | | | | | v v --------------- | | | | | <--- (e-) | Cool (<270 F) | | | | --------------- Compartment B FIG. 2 - Block Diagram of System in Equilibrium In the proposed system (see FIG. 2), compartment A contains a current generating mechanism except for the resistive current loop, and any device it may power, which is in compartment B. Electrical connection is made between the right side of compartment A to the right side of compartment B, and similarly on the left side. The compartments are thermally connected. Some of the heat of compartment A is converted to electrical energy which is transferred to compartment B, the resistive circuit, where it does useful work and thereby heats compartment B. Compartment A is spontaneously cooled while compartment B is heated, all with no active components. The waste heat from compartment B is allowed to flow back to A to maintain it's heat so it can continue to generate power. If a compartment A is defined which can perpetually maintain a potential difference and a corresponding current flow, however small, then the objectives have been achieved. THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT In a uniform magnetic field coming out of the page, thermal positive ions (or holes) will tend to move in a clockwise circle, negative ions will tend to move in a counterclockwise circle. If the magnetic field is non-uniform, a gradient with the field B stronger at the bottom of the page than at the top, then drift occurs. Positive ions (or holes) will tend to drift to the right, negative ions to the left. The drift is caused by the fact that the cyclotron radius is smaller on average on the bottom portion of the loop. Thus positive particles move in long arcs to the right and short arcs to the left, for example. Electrons move in long arcs to the left and short arcs to the right. Assume that the x axis is left to right, the y axis bottom to top of page, and the z axis is increasing out of page toward the reader (see FIG. 3). That thermally energized drift occurs implies that in the proposed magnetic gradient, dB/dy, the energy from ambient heat can be used to form an electrostatic gradient, negative to the left and positive to the right. With a completed circuit, the configuration takes thermal energy from ions in the magnetic field gradient and converts it to current. If the thermally drifting ions have bounds to their motion to the left and right , then a field E should be formed in the X axis due to the accumulation of charged particles at the boundaries. In the proposed cell, the magnitude of B decreases linearly with an increase in y and is constant at all z, and x, for a given y. The direction cosines of B are constant at (0,0,1). For this reason it seems sufficient to use a two dimensional (2D) model to analyze the effect. In a uniform magnetic field coming out of the page, thermal positive ions will tend to rotate in a clockwise circle. If the field is stronger at the bottom of the page (decreasing B in y direction) the path, as viewed in the x,y plane of the paper, might look something like the path shown in FIG. 3. |<---------------- Td --------------->| -->o o--> o o o o B smaller o o o | o o | dB/dy o o | o V B larger FIG. 3 - Motion of positive particle in graduated B field. Electrons would tend to drift in the opposite or left-wise direction. It appears that any motion in the z axis would be irrelevant to these dynamics. Also, it seems that, if there is any resistance at the left or right boundaries, or if they are closed, as the top and bottom are assumed to be, then a right to left electrostatic gradient will form. An effect called ExB drift will then increase pressure toward the top of the cell, which will quickly reach equilibrium, due to the cell boundaries at top and bottom. It is assumed the top and bottom cell boundaries do not destroy or neutralize the charge, but do confine it within the cell. If resistance at the right and left boundaries is partial, then a net current, consisting of the combination of positive flow to right and negative flow to the left, should occur. In the proposed thermal electromagnetic drift, particles of different charge move in opposite directions. The apparent current moves in one direction. The x axis drifting effect due to repeated regular displacements Td at the cyclotronic frequency is called here thermal electromagnetic drift (TED). A device using the TED effect is called a TED device (or TEDD). Note that in practice Td would be very small in relation to the cyclotronic radius, but the drift not so small due to the fast cyclotron frequency. A REVERSE ENTROPY DEVICE It is proposed that a TED device can be achieved in an actual n-type lattice. Consider FIG. 4: B ~= 0.5 T out of page ----------------------- | | | | | | | n-type | | | lattice | | | | dB/dy = -0.1 T / cm | (-) (+) | | | | V | | ----------------------- Small E ------> <------ Hot electron TED direction Cool electron drift in E field ---> FIG. 4 The leftward TED induced by dB/dy creates a small negative charge to the left, leaving a small positive charge to the right. This creates an electrostatic field E across the lattice, but reaches an equilibrium, with hot electrons drifting to the left, due to TED, at the same rate as cool electrons drift to the right, due to E. However, this tendency for hot electrons to drift left and cool electrons to drift right should create a higher temperature to the left. To disprove the second law it is only necessary to show that a TEDD can generate whatsoever either any potential or any thermal gradient across a TED, no matter how small the effect. However, the fundamental question regarding practical use or even an experimental test is the question of whether TED cells can be put in series, or alternatively made long, in order to increase the total electrostatic potential achievable at a given temperature. The magnetic field does not add energy to the ions. The kinetic energy of the ions is there initially only in the form of heat. The magnetic field gradient only serves to organize things. Since 1 eV = 11,600 deg. K, at 270 K the average ion should have a kinetic energy of about 0.0233 eV. This means that a maximum cell potential is about 0.023 V if the full kinetic energy of the average ion is to be sapped before reaching the cell boundaries in the course of overcoming a reverse field gradient E (not likely!). This cell operating voltage of 0.0233 V establishes a minimum of 26 cells that must work in series at 270 K to produce a meaningful potential of about 0.6 V to do electrolysis, for example. In practice it should be a much larger number. Of interest is the fact that faster moving ions will have a large Td and thus drift faster than slow ones. This implies that a thermal gradient might be established. It should be coldest in the middle of the cell, warmest near the right and left boundaries in a cell with the magnetic gradient bottom to top as in our examples. However, in a cell with both positive and negative ions flowing, the thermal gradient tends to balance except at the cell boundaries. This implies that the ions can move toward the cell boundaries in small increments. That is to say the following stage-wise process would be repeated: (1) the drift causes motion against the field gradient and a loss of kinetic energy. (2) collisions with impurities or the lattice phonons cause, on average, a restoration of kinetic energy (3) the drift repeats. In other words, fast moving (hot) particles tend to drift in their own direction faster than slow (cold) ones tend to fall back. The above seems to imply that, provided the heat is continually replenished, say from the top side of the cell via a heat conduit from compartment B, that large electrostatic potentials, like 0.6 V, can be achieved by making the TED cells sufficiently long or by placing a sufficient number in series, provided there is a viable means of charge exchange at the right and left boundaries. It appears a good material for a test may be germanium doped with group V elements, like phosphorous or arsenic, an n-type germanium. A perfect germanium crystal is transparent to free electrons, but the electron acts as if it has mass m*, where m* ~= m/10. [see Hall, "Solid State Physics"] The problem is in achieving high enough purity to approximate "perfect". The dopants trap free electrons with a binding energy of about -0.01 eV, which is less than the average thermal kinetic energy of about 0.026 eV, so many of the impurity sites will be ionized, providing the free electrons. The ground state wave function for the dopant bound electrons has a radius of about 50 Angstroms, which accounts for the low energy binding. It is of interest that cyclotron resonance is used to determine m* experimentally. The electrons, of apparent mass m*, move in circular orbits at an angular frequency of f = (e)(B)/(m*), independent of their energy, and thus can absorb EM radiation at frequency f. At 1 tesla we get f to be approximately 10^12 s^-1. One of the problems in measuring cyclotron resonance, and a possible problem to drift detection, is getting the electrons to complete a few orbits on average before disruption by impurities or thermal vibrations. For this reason extremely pure material is used at liquid He temperatures to determine m*. For our purposes, which does not require resonance, it does not seem like these extreme measures are necessary. The loops would in effect be borken into many small increments, but the average effect should be the same. It is also of interest that holes can be used as well as electrons for determining m*, and that it is possible to use a mixture of n and p type dopants to achieve electron migration to the left and hole migration to the right when the B gradient is vertical as in our example (i.e. dB/dx = 0, dB/dy = -|ky|, dB/dz=0). Since there are no moving parts, and the proposed TEDD can do useful work in a system where heat is initially totally uniform, it appears to be a successful attack on the second law. The actual current generated may be so small as to require a SQUIB or Josephson junction type device to detect it, but the demonstration of the perpetual generating of a current while cooling a device below ambient would still be a very useful experiment from a theoretical standpoint. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 12:40:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA28478; Tue, 13 May 1997 12:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: 13 May 97 14:26:47 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Electrolytic Mills Replications? Message-ID: <970513182647_72240.1256_EHB53-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"ftdwK3.0.sy6.X2CUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Michael J. Schaffer thinks that the excess heat from the NASA Lewis replication of the Mills cell may be due to recombination. I agree, emphatically. Schaffer writes: From brief discussions I have read in CF papers about the operation of recombiners in closed cells, the presence of a small fortuitous recombination in a cell does not seem unreasonable. Exactly right. Large nickel cells are more prone to this problem because: 1. There is much more metal surface area compared to input power. A few bubbles find lots of metal to land and stay on. In fact, many bubbles never rise to the surface in the first place; you can see them sitting on the metal. You see the same thing with Pd electrolysis at the milliwatt level. 2. The geometry of these large Ni cells encourages recombination. Most Pd cells consist of a small cathode (a sheet or rod) mounted vertically, with the anode (wire or mesh) some distance away. Bubbles from the cathode never visibly impinge on the anode. Of course, some of the gas does mix in with electrolyte, but the levels are microscopic. I have heard that the geometry of original Mills cell was more prone to recombination. A Patterson Ni cell anode and cathode are vertically mounted, and the H2 gas is forced right past the anode. This must lead to considerable recombination. When you reverse the flow and force oxygen past the anode, it quickly oxidizes and the thin film is destroyed. Schaffer continues: They [NASA] devote considerable space in the body of the report to this recombination issue. BlackLight dismisses it in one sentence. Quite right. It is irresponsible. I was upset by this. Recombination does not explain away all cold fusion results by any means. . . . Especially not in gas loaded cells where no oxygen is present; in heat after death cells; in closed cells with recombiners; and in cells that produce a thousand times more output than total input from electrolysis, pumps, and all other sources. Steve Jones is wrong on that point. However, in this particular instance, recombination is the likely explanation. I agree. The degree of recombination MUST be measured or otherwise controlled for in electrolytic cold fusion experiments, just as voltage, current and temperatures; otherwise, the experiment is incomplete. Well . . . I think this is putting it a little strongly. It is expensive and difficult to measure recombination in most cases. You need an airtight cell with only one vent that goes through a top-notch gas flow meter. Gas flow meters cost a terrific amount of money and they frequently break. The money is better spent on upgrading other instruments. The time is better spent on things like selecting and preparing the metal. I think it is better to assume there will be 100% recombination. Unless you get excess heat significantly greater than total electric power input, I think you should consider the results marginal or questionable at best. Perhaps Mike would agree this is one method of "otherwise controlling" for recombination. If you feel you must control for recombination, I think the best method is to used a closed cell with a recombiner. I don't like this because: recombination stops and starts, causing little blips and noise in the data; it can stop altogether and blow up the cell; and because the recombiners are often dirty, so the newly formed water carries contaminants into the electrolyte. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 12:57:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA07606; Tue, 13 May 1997 12:50:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:50:59 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Scudder,Henry J" To: Dan Quickert , Vortex-L Subject: RE: Simple Ou Device Offline Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:45:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UulNw.0.ms1.ZOCUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dan,Greg It probably would be a good idea to set up and make a jig for a standard measurement of the magnetic field strength of your magnets, both just before and just after you run the ball through your system to see if the extra energy is coming from the magnets. Hank Scudder ---------- From: Dan Quickert To: 'vortex-l eskimo.com' Subject: RE: Simple Ou Device Offline Date: Tuesday, May 13, 1997 9:25AM Congratulations, Greg! I hope the next steps go well for you. Of course, I'm also anxious to hear more about it when you're free to do so. I've just ordered a batch of Neodymium magnets, enough to experiment with multiple ramps. Also hoping to get more lift. It's frustrating how little net power we can get from these ramps. I'm working with the idea of making the field contours less "thick" in the vertical axis, and other ways to shape the field for better exit. If you're still working with a ball rolling on a track, I had these ideas: - try a non-metallic but low-friction track. This would eliminate any opposing induced fields in the track. How about a couple of glass rods? - vary the width of the track relative to the ball. This changes the rotational velocity of the ball; a wider track makes the ball rotate faster but slows its forward velocity. One way to use this is to have a very narrow track for more forward momentum. Then make it wider just at the end; this would slow its forward speed (and start it dropping) but increase the angular velocity, giving it more of a roll over the edge. Once over the edge the track could narrow again. Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 13:35:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA05091; Tue, 13 May 1997 13:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:19:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705132019.PAA07786 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Electrolytic Mills Replications? Resent-Message-ID: <"kNKOw2.0.TF1.NqCUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 14:26 5/13/97 EDT, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Michael J. Schaffer thinks that the excess heat from the NASA Lewis >replication of the Mills cell may be due to recombination. I agree, >emphatically. That was my conclusion as well...just from reading the paper. Mitchell Swartz indicated that there may be additional information that indicates otherwise. It would be nice to query the authors directly on this point. >It is expensive and >difficult to measure recombination in most cases. You need an airtight cell >with only one vent that goes through a top-notch gas flow meter. Gas flow >meters cost a terrific amount of money and they frequently break. Jed, it's not "expensive and difficult" if you're willing to settle for periodic gas flow rate measurements rather than a continuous signal. I use a graduated cylinder filled completely with water that is then inverted in a beaker full of water and mounted in a ring stand so the open mouth of the cylinder is near the surface of the water. I manually place the vent hose from the cell under the inverted cylinder letting the H & O bubble up into the cylinder and displace the water for a precisely timed period. With a little care, I can reproduce such gas flow rate measurements to within 2% relative, which would have been plenty good enuf for NASA to decide whether or not recombination would explain their apparent excess heat. You DO need an airtight cell for this measurement...but that's not too difficult in most cases. At very low flow rates (e.g. from a 20 mA electrolysis current), significant errors can result from the gas dissolving in the water. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 13:40:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA01915; Tue, 13 May 1997 13:24:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:24:53 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:24:39 -0400 From: uban world.std.com (Jim Uban) Message-Id: <199705132024.AA05165 world.std.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Bedini Clarifier & Fogal Transistor Resent-Message-ID: <"u2oIH3.0.rT.KuCUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Vortexians: Some time ago, I brought up the topic of Bedini's Clarifier product, which is sold as a 'high-end' audio product and appears to bring out more content from CD's. Also, Mr. Bedini gave to this group, via Bill Beatty's web pages, a do-it-yourself version of the Clarifier (called Scalar Generator or some such on the web page). Several sober audio reviewers have given the Clarifier high praise in various audiophile magazines. For instance: ----------------------------------------------------Start review [from http://www.bedini.com/review2.html] "Must-haves for the hardcore" BY MILES ASTOR Audio Video Shopper October 1996 Volume 1, No. 2 Bedini Ultra Clarifier For those of you deep into the CD world, the Bedini Clarifier is this decade's most controversial audio accessory. The proof, however, is in the listening. What does clarifying a disc do? Something like cleaning a dirty window: The music exhibits a greater transparency. Timbres become more colorful and brilliant, digital harshness lessens, and instruments are brought into greater focus. Clarified CDs may sound louder than untreated discs. Exactly how this contraption works still eludes me, even after reading through the patent: "Apparatus and Method for Reducing Electronic Relaxation Noise Present Information Recording Technology" (patent #5,487,057, 1/23/96). Clarification entails spinning a CD through a highly focused, pulsed electromagnetic field. Bedini believes that the demagnetization of the disc reduces " relaxation noise, " a problem induced by the passage of electrical currents through a conductor. Relaxation noise is inherent to all recorded media such as fi]m, tape, record, or compact disc. Whatever the reason, Bedini presents measurements that substantiate many of the listening observations, such as lowered noise floor or higher apparent loudness levels. Give the Bedini Ultra Clarifier a spin. You won't be disappointed ----------------------------------------------------End review A few Vortexians said they were going to experiment with the do-it-yourself version and report back here. I haven't seen any comments to-date that I remember. But neither have I built one myself so far. :-) On the face of it, that this device can do what it is reviewed as doing is absurd, from an engineering point of view. After all, the CD is digital, and non-magnetic. So, how could spraying it with intermittent E/M have any effect, and why should the effect be to improve the sound in any case? Bedini claims a 'scalar' effect from the opposed magnets in his device. Bob Shannon has argued that this is not truly a scalar device. In any case, it works to improve the CD quality of reproduction. Now, where else have we seen very similar descriptions of improved audio (and in this second case, also video) performance, which, again, seems ludicrous on the face of the engineering? It's also being reported as a property of application of Mr. Fogal's modified transistors! [Now well-documented on Gary Hawkin's web pages]. The conincidence of description is uncanny, with clearer reproduction for audio, and for video, a much better or sharper image. This latter even on LCD screens, which should be totally immune to any improvement, being basically digital in nature! In both cases (Bedini, Fogal), the device is placed or used in only one point of the audio video path. Nevertheless, it affects the results, and dramatically, at the final speaker or video outputs. So, what's going on with these devices? I'm going to go out on the 'whacko' limb here and postulate that somehow these devices are opening a 'transcendent' channel of some sort. Perhaps they are allowing one's consciousness to get involved with the operation, and facilitate a 'remote- viewing' recall of the actual event (the concert or video source), which then gets superimposed in the mind on the literal results produced by the aural or visual physical transducers (speakers/video monitors). Any other ideas or comments? Jim From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 14:45:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA15823; Tue, 13 May 1997 14:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:32:06 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple Ou Device Offline Resent-Message-ID: <"Nxp3g2.0.9t3.zwDUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:51 AM 5/13/97, Greg Watson wrote: [SNIP] >By the way, I closed the loop late last night! It is sort of ramp >based. Not much power yet. It has been running (self powered) for 12 >hours now. Must close now. [SNIP] >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax Greg, You probably have already done so, but if not, I suggest you get a video of a disclosure to a witness of the closed loop device in operation, including any questions and examinations of the device, and also including the taking of measurements of the device, distances, and field strengths. All this is just in case the effect goes away not to be duplicated agian, as so often happens. Also, have you by any chance added an active component to the device? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 15:44:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA24289; Tue, 13 May 1997 15:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:34:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705131727.ZM11030 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:27:46 -0500 In-Reply-To: Peter Jason Aldo "Re: THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT (Part 1)" (May 13, 2:54pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minto Wheel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"O6fb63.0.Gx5.rnEUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On May 13, 2:54pm, Peter Jason Aldo wrote: > I'm talking about putting a > heat pump condenser and evaporator in each tank of the Minto Wheel. Each > evaporator and condenser would be connected to one heat pump. Solenoid > valves would control which chamber is being cooled and which chamber > is being heated depending on the position of the chambers. Heat would > constantly be recirculated from the higher chamber to the lower > chamber. Then gravity would do the work of turning the wheel. No heat > would ever be dumped as waste heat anywhere. Every heat engine must dump > heat to an outside reservoir according to the Second Law. Here seems to be > an exception. I know energy is lost during the phase changes, but how would > that lost energy compare to the energy output of the turning wheel? I think you are letting your enthusiasm get the best of you. I suggest you read up on Stirling cycle engines. The most common solution is utilizing a regenerator to boost transfer efficiency. IMO you are chasing your tail trying close the loop with the MW. You don't need to. Still crunching the numbers, but I may have a design suggestion: --- --- | |-<<=======| | | | ----0---- | | | |=======>>-| | --- --- Two one way lines between aluminum chambers. Use the heating and expanding gas pressure on one end to push ammonia vapor through a pinch at the other end. No external cooling required to condense the gas. No mechanics, no heat pumps, no special environments required. The rotation and phase change rate can be sped up proportionally to the available heat supply, the pressure containment limits of the loop, and the maximum effective pinch apature size. The rest of the problems are power transfer related. Quick check of belt driven electric generators shows a target motive power needed is 4 HP and 3600 RPM to turn a basic 2 KW generator (6 HP for 4 KW, 16 HP for 8 KW). Given the existing device runs at a reported blistering 1 RPM, the rotation scale up IMO is the biggest hurdle (at least for this application). The gear tooth stresses are too high. What is the efficiency drop off for generators run at slower than rated speeds? Do slow RPM generators exist? -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 15:54:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA02170; Tue, 13 May 1997 15:46:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:46:41 -0700 Message-ID: <3378EF06.2666 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:15:26 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Simple Rotary Ou Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VcWRe3.0.iX.GzEUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Hi All, Just a short note to try to answer those questions I can. 1) There is NO outside power source. 2) The device contains only ceramic magnet and ferromagnetic materials (some balsa, a few bearings and some plactic "U" channel as well). 3) The device produces rotary torque. Can be stopped with very little pressure from two fingers on a steel 4mm shaft. 4) The device has been moved to the middle of my lounge and my back garden. It still works. 5) The device will not auto start. However the energy necessary to start is only that required to overcome friction. 6) I don't think the device is worthy of a Nobel or my picture on Business Week. I know of several other devices (Finstrud, Gary, Kawai, Bob Shannon's Barkenhausen Effect Battery and many US patents) which show magnetic devices can do work. For some strange reason, we seem to "Not want to believe" or maybe just want to believe in our own area of research as the "One true path". 7) I have posted enough details and ideas for those of you who REALLY want to duplicate the device to do so. Read my postings. 8) Much work still remains to be able to light a 1 watt bulb. When I can do that, I will make available through Stephan's and Bill's OU web sites a Mpeg of the device working. If I can't light a bulb, it will still make a nice toy and maybe a starting place for someone else. 9) The magnets don't appear to be getting weaker or colder, but then I am not generating much power yet. 10) I still call the effect DNMEC (Direct Nuclear Magnetic Energy Conversion). Like my flux gate DNMEC effect, both these effects revolve around ferromagnetic and magnet interactions. I believe the Kawai motor is another variation of the DNMEC effect (like the Rod & Coil we discussed earlier). Come on guys (and gals), start thinking outside of the square. There is always more than one way to crack eggs. Stop talking .............. BUILD SOMETHING!!!!!!!!! -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 16:33:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA09709; Tue, 13 May 1997 16:30:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:30:46 -0700 Message-Id: <337886A7.8191F00D verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:20:07 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: billb eskimo.com Cc: vortex Subject: Julian Troianov email address X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yi5dv1.0.dN2.acFUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Bill, Julian Troianov (who is currently subscribed to vortex-l) send me a letter, but I cant replay him because the address that he send me is wrong. Assuming that you have the correct one, could you post to me. Thank you, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 18:53:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA32373; Tue, 13 May 1997 18:39:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:39:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3379158D.39FA microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:59:49 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Greg & Shirley Watson Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4CAA1C6B5C51" Resent-Message-ID: <"Sevxb.0.Wv7.xUHUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4CAA1C6B5C51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, For those of you who asked, here is a photo (about 1 year old) of my wife Shirley & I. I have made a video of the device. I am having it turned into a Mpeg. Thanks for all the supportive posts, but I really don't think my device is all that great. I have been in business too long not to understand that there is a very long and rocky road until I or others can offer a 10kw home unit for sale. I really believe someone else will achieve a better solution. Just remember : "None of us is as smart as all of us" Think outside the square and BUILD SOMETHING...................! -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. 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microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"18yCg3.0.qi.fkHUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > I disagree about the Nobel. Should Tesla/Marconi not be recognized, just > because H. Hertz was there first? That sort of thing doesn't really turn me on. > Best of luck at slipping a "pm" machine through the patent process! Is > the system in .au more tolerant towards this sort of thing than in .usa? By "pm" I suppose you mean perpetual motion? We will cover that the same way Johnson did in his rotary magnet motor. Suggest where the energy is coming from. We will also have a working device for them to test. > > 7) I have posted enough details and ideas for those of you who REALLY > > want to duplicate the device to do so. Read my postings. > > I hope this is true, but you can't know this until someone else is > sucessful. Think about Heathkit instructions: it took DC Heath many > passes of beta testing to create instructions which people could follow. > Humans bring preconceptions with them to any task, even humans with > expertise in the field. If your preconceptions are slightly different > than everyone elses, then you can give out all sorts of information, yet > everyone will keep making the same mistake, or exhibiting the same bit of > blindness, and will be unable to do what you've done. As a hint, think of how to build a ramp where the field graduations REDUCE as the ball rolls up the ramp. Sounds impossible, but I guarantee it can be done. Think outside the square. Then BUILD IT!!!!!!!!!! > .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. > William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 > EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ > Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 20:02:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA27983 for billb@eskimo.com; Tue, 13 May 1997 20:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:02:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: ddeleo ix.netcom.com Tue May 13 20:02:36 1997 Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA27925; Tue, 13 May 1997 20:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA22121; Tue, 13 May 1997 22:00:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nbw-nj9-43.ix.netcom.com(198.211.225.171) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma021441; Tue May 13 22:00:00 1997 Message-ID: <33792A60.6D52 ix.netcom.com> Old-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:58:40 -0400 From: David DeLeo Reply-To: ddeleo ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au CC: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Greg & Shirley Watson References: <3379158D.39FA microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: > Thanks for all the supportive posts, but I really don't think my device > is all that great. I have been in business too long not to understand > that there is a very long and rocky road until I or others can offer a > 10kw home unit for sale. > Greg, Give yourself the credit you deserve.... You have worked hard on the development of this device and you succeded. Sure the comercial aspects of it have not been worked out, but the priciple is there. Remember the Wright brothers, their first plane skimmed the ground for about 100 yards or so (not much by modern terms, also not very usefull comercialy, certainly no Concorde) but it was the first powered flight and they deserve the credit they have recieved. So do you. You made the first? successful pm machine, the 10kw unit will come with time. Let me know when you are ready for investors..... Good Luck, Dave DeLeo ddeleo ix.netcom.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 20:40:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA18690; Tue, 13 May 1997 20:15:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:15:39 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:13:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705140313.WAA16480 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device Resent-Message-ID: <"HamHq2.0.yZ4.QvIUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:15 AM 5/14/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: >5) The device will not auto start. However the energy necessary to >start is only that required to overcome friction. hmmmm! do you have to hold part of the device in your hands for it to function?...or can it run completely unattended? >6) I don't think the device is worthy of a Nobel or my picture on >Business Week. In my opinion, either (1) you are not serious about this statement or (2) your device does not actually run all by itself without any external input whatsoever. >I know of several other devices (Finstrud, Gary, Kawai, >Bob Shannon's Barkenhausen Effect Battery and many US patents) which >show magnetic devices can do work. No, these reports/patents only show that the inventors THINK their devices can do work. There is no proof conveyed by a simple report or a US patent. Acceptable proof of the validity of such devices can only come from independent replication of the effect...a form of which would be widespread usage of such devices for practical applications. In short..."This ain't happening yet!" So, Greg, if you have truly succeeded...you probably WILL get the Nobel prize. Scott P.S. Please tell us more about the _performance_ of your device. I assume that you are leaving it running continuously in order to prove that it is not some form of stored energy, right? How many hours has it been, now? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 20:46:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA25140; Tue, 13 May 1997 20:42:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:42:41 -0700 Message-ID: <33793414.3979 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:10:04 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device References: <199705140313.WAA16480 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yraoK1.0.k86.mIJUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 08:15 AM 5/14/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: > > >5) The device will not auto start. However the energy necessary to > >start is only that required to overcome friction. > > hmmmm! do you have to hold part of the device in your hands for it to > function?...or can it run completely unattended? No. Runs completely unattended. Occupies a surface area of about 150mm x 50mm. > >6) I don't think the device is worthy of a Nobel or my picture on > >Business Week. > > In my opinion, either (1) you are not serious about this statement or (2) > your device does not actually run all by itself without any external input > whatsoever. Why do you say this? How do you know me so well as to understand what turns me on. > >I know of several other devices (Finstrud, Gary, Kawai, > >Bob Shannon's Barkenhausen Effect Battery and many US patents) which > >show magnetic devices can do work. > > No, these reports/patents only show that the inventors THINK their devices > can do work. There is no proof conveyed by a simple report or a US patent. > Acceptable proof of the validity of such devices can only come from > independent replication of the effect...a form of which would be widespread > usage of such devices for practical applications. So the US gov will patent rubbish?????????? > In short..."This ain't happening yet!" There can be many reasons for this. One may be that they don't work, but I wouldn't really want to hang my hat on that. Have YOU ever built any of the devices to check out their claims? If you haven't, then your argument has no validity. Scott, I try really hard to only comment on things I have built and can demonstrate actual devices to support by claims. > So, Greg, if you have truly succeeded...you probably WILL get the Nobel prize. I think others deserve it more. > Scott > > P.S. Please tell us more about the _performance_ of your device. I assume > that you are leaving it running continuously in order to prove that it is > not some form of stored energy, right? How many hours has it been, now? Approx 38 hours. Have stopped it several times for about 30 minutes. Stopped once by itself, but found a piece had moved. Some more Blu-tak and off it went. The Finstrud device will run for around 4 weeks before it stops. Guess that makes it not OU? By the way, have you viewed the mpeg of this device? Maybe the Nobel should go to Finstrud? -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 23:09:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA14784; Tue, 13 May 1997 23:06:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:06:40 -0700 Message-ID: <33795833.6E98 loc1.tandem.com> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:14:11 -0700 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device References: <3378EF06.2666 microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YOaWA.0.sc3.lPLUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg -- Congratulations on closing the loop! Do you have any estimate of the power output of the device? Currently, I imagine almost all of the power goes into overcoming friction. That part would be very difficult to measure accurately. But for it to keep running, there must be a bit more power beyond that. I was wondering if you could couple the shaft to something that would directly show the accumulated energy gain. For instance, you might be able to couple the shaft to a wheel that could scoop up a few grains of sand near the bottom of the wheel and deposit them near the top of the wheel. You could measure the amount of work done by the potential energy change. If you could vary the size or number of grains, you could find the point where it just stops working and calculate the excess. Another variation of this would be to pick up some iron filings with a rotating magnet, then extract them at the top with a stronger magnet. Another approach would be to rotate a magnet and use it to induce a small current in an external coil. By varying the load on the coil (or the coupling to the magnet), you could find the point where it stops. Just before that point, you could integrate VI with a storage scope to estimate excess. Maybe others have ideas of simple ways to measure tiny amounts of excess power. Anything you could do to make it actually perform some work might help in getting it past the patent examiner. -- Bob Horst From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 23:11:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA07606; Tue, 13 May 1997 12:50:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:50:59 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Scudder,Henry J" To: Dan Quickert , Vortex-L Subject: RE: Simple Ou Device Offline Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:45:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UulNw.0.ms1.ZOCUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dan,Greg It probably would be a good idea to set up and make a jig for a standard measurement of the magnetic field strength of your magnets, both just before and just after you run the ball through your system to see if the extra energy is coming from the magnets. Hank Scudder ---------- From: Dan Quickert To: 'vortex-l eskimo.com' Subject: RE: Simple Ou Device Offline Date: Tuesday, May 13, 1997 9:25AM Congratulations, Greg! I hope the next steps go well for you. Of course, I'm also anxious to hear more about it when you're free to do so. I've just ordered a batch of Neodymium magnets, enough to experiment with multiple ramps. Also hoping to get more lift. It's frustrating how little net power we can get from these ramps. I'm working with the idea of making the field contours less "thick" in the vertical axis, and other ways to shape the field for better exit. If you're still working with a ball rolling on a track, I had these ideas: - try a non-metallic but low-friction track. This would eliminate any opposing induced fields in the track. How about a couple of glass rods? - vary the width of the track relative to the ball. This changes the rotational velocity of the ball; a wider track makes the ball rotate faster but slows its forward velocity. One way to use this is to have a very narrow track for more forward momentum. Then make it wider just at the end; this would slow its forward speed (and start it dropping) but increase the angular velocity, giving it more of a roll over the edge. Once over the edge the track could narrow again. Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 23:16:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA00260; Tue, 13 May 1997 11:51:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:51:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199705131851.LAA00206 mx1.eskimo.com> Date: 13 May 1997 13:29 EDT Sender: "Gene Batten" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Gene Batten" Subject: re:Simple Ou Device Offline Resent-Message-ID: <"F_sxU.0.-3._WBUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is one more "congratulations" on your accomplishment. History is being made here. These are exciting times. When your patent attorney gives the OK, would you mind giving a complete explanation of how your device works? I have been following your postings about "ramps" and "balls", etc. But somewhere along the line I must have missed some postings. Please keep us posted also about your development plans. I think many people would be interested in replicating your device and assisting with developing it into commercial products. Best Regards, Gene Batten mdleb nortel.ca 919-991-8933 Research Triangle Park, N.C. , USA In message "Simple Ou Device Offline", you write: > Hi All, > > Sorry to say, but my patent attorney has pulled the plug. > > By the way, I closed the loop late last night! It is sort of ramp > based. Not much power yet. It has been running (self powered) for 12 > hours now. Must close now. > > I will post again as soon as posible. > > To all thouse of you who have built ramps, all I can say is get three > linked ramps working and then study the second (middle) ramp. Think > outside the square. > > -- > Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au > Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 23:32:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA07658; Tue, 13 May 1997 12:51:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:51:12 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:59:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Jason Aldo To: Horace Heffner Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT (Part 1) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"eMZAg.0.St1.kOCUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 13 May 1997, Horace Heffner wrote: > > The second law of thermodynamics is the law of entropy, and is stated in > various ways, one of which is:"It is impossible for any cycling device to > exchange heat with only a single reservoir and produce work." > > It is an objective here to define a physically realizable system which for > all practical consideration is a closed, isolated system that (1) has no > moving parts other than electrons, and no stored potential energy other > than the thermal energy of the system and that of a permanent magnetic > field, (2) has two compartments, A and B, (3) has a given starting > condition that all parts have a uniform temperature of 270 degrees > Fahrenheit, (4) spontaneously moves heat from compartment A to compartment > B and (5) thus either does useful work during the transfer process (e.g. > electrical) and/or makes it possible to use the temperature difference to > do useful work while transferring or conducting the heat from compartment B > back to compartment A. The looping of heat back to compartment A closes > the energy loop and creates "perpetual motion". If a true physical > embodiment of (1) through (4) can exist then the second law of > thermodynamics is no longer a law; it then needs qualifications or > restrictions in scope. Hello. Back to the Minto Wheel. It would seem to me that a Minto Wheel operated as an insulated, closed system using a heat pump to move the heat from the upper chambers of the wheel to the lower chambers would violate the Second Law of thermodynamics. Energy in the form of heat would be used to vaporize the liquid in the lower chamber and the heat would be given up in the top chamber as the vapor condenses and pumped down to the next chamber that is in the lower position. I'm talking about putting a heat pump condenser and evaporator in each tank of the Minto Wheel. Each evaporator and condenser would be connected to one heat pump. Solenoid valves would control which chamber is being cooled and which chamber is being heated depending on the position of the chambers.Heat would constantly be recirculated from the higher chamber to the lower chamber. Then gravity would do the work of turning the wheel. No heat would ever be dumped as waste heat anywhere. Every heat engine must dump heat to an outside reservoir acording to the Second Law. Here seems to be an exception.I know energy is lost during the phase changes, but how would that lost energy compare to the energy output of the turning wheel? Pete From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 13 23:45:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA01915; Tue, 13 May 1997 13:24:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:24:53 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:24:39 -0400 From: uban world.std.com (Jim Uban) Message-Id: <199705132024.AA05165 world.std.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Bedini Clarifier & Fogal Transistor Resent-Message-ID: <"u2oIH3.0.rT.KuCUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Vortexians: Some time ago, I brought up the topic of Bedini's Clarifier product, which is sold as a 'high-end' audio product and appears to bring out more content from CD's. Also, Mr. Bedini gave to this group, via Bill Beatty's web pages, a do-it-yourself version of the Clarifier (called Scalar Generator or some such on the web page). Several sober audio reviewers have given the Clarifier high praise in various audiophile magazines. For instance: ----------------------------------------------------Start review [from http://www.bedini.com/review2.html] "Must-haves for the hardcore" BY MILES ASTOR Audio Video Shopper October 1996 Volume 1, No. 2 Bedini Ultra Clarifier For those of you deep into the CD world, the Bedini Clarifier is this decade's most controversial audio accessory. The proof, however, is in the listening. What does clarifying a disc do? Something like cleaning a dirty window: The music exhibits a greater transparency. Timbres become more colorful and brilliant, digital harshness lessens, and instruments are brought into greater focus. Clarified CDs may sound louder than untreated discs. Exactly how this contraption works still eludes me, even after reading through the patent: "Apparatus and Method for Reducing Electronic Relaxation Noise Present Information Recording Technology" (patent #5,487,057, 1/23/96). Clarification entails spinning a CD through a highly focused, pulsed electromagnetic field. Bedini believes that the demagnetization of the disc reduces " relaxation noise, " a problem induced by the passage of electrical currents through a conductor. Relaxation noise is inherent to all recorded media such as fi]m, tape, record, or compact disc. Whatever the reason, Bedini presents measurements that substantiate many of the listening observations, such as lowered noise floor or higher apparent loudness levels. Give the Bedini Ultra Clarifier a spin. You won't be disappointed ----------------------------------------------------End review A few Vortexians said they were going to experiment with the do-it-yourself version and report back here. I haven't seen any comments to-date that I remember. But neither have I built one myself so far. :-) On the face of it, that this device can do what it is reviewed as doing is absurd, from an engineering point of view. After all, the CD is digital, and non-magnetic. So, how could spraying it with intermittent E/M have any effect, and why should the effect be to improve the sound in any case? Bedini claims a 'scalar' effect from the opposed magnets in his device. Bob Shannon has argued that this is not truly a scalar device. In any case, it works to improve the CD quality of reproduction. Now, where else have we seen very similar descriptions of improved audio (and in this second case, also video) performance, which, again, seems ludicrous on the face of the engineering? It's also being reported as a property of application of Mr. Fogal's modified transistors! [Now well-documented on Gary Hawkin's web pages]. The conincidence of description is uncanny, with clearer reproduction for audio, and for video, a much better or sharper image. This latter even on LCD screens, which should be totally immune to any improvement, being basically digital in nature! In both cases (Bedini, Fogal), the device is placed or used in only one point of the audio video path. Nevertheless, it affects the results, and dramatically, at the final speaker or video outputs. So, what's going on with these devices? I'm going to go out on the 'whacko' limb here and postulate that somehow these devices are opening a 'transcendent' channel of some sort. Perhaps they are allowing one's consciousness to get involved with the operation, and facilitate a 'remote- viewing' recall of the actual event (the concert or video source), which then gets superimposed in the mind on the literal results produced by the aural or visual physical transducers (speakers/video monitors). Any other ideas or comments? Jim From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 00:47:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA25830; Wed, 14 May 1997 00:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:40:27 -0800 To: Peter Jason Aldo From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT (Part 1) Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"kBTyr2.0.WJ6.vqMUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:59 PM 5/13/97, Peter Jason Aldo wrote: [snip] >Hello. >Back to the Minto Wheel. [snip] >Here seems to be >an exception.I know energy is lost during the phase changes, but how would >that lost energy compare to the energy output of the turning wheel? > Pete Beats me! Now, after a word from our sponsor, "Return of the Phoenix", back to Greg and the world's first successful perpetual motion machine. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 00:47:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA28815; Wed, 14 May 1997 00:15:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:15:54 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:13:18 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Minto Wheel Resent-Message-ID: <"98Do11.0.927.gQMUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:27 PM 5/13/97, John Steck wrote: [snip] >Given the existing >device runs at a reported blistering 1 RPM, the rotation scale up IMO is the >biggest hurdle (at least for this application). The gear tooth stresses are >too high. What is the efficiency drop off for generators run at slower than >rated speeds? Do slow RPM generators exist? > > >-- >John E. Steck >Motorola Inc. Chain drives can be made very efficient, and should scale up just fine. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 01:05:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA30005; Wed, 14 May 1997 00:30:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:30:02 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:27:12 -0800 To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device Resent-Message-ID: <"7VUg5.0.lK7.wdMUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:14 PM 5/13/97, Bob Horst wrote: [snip] > >Maybe others have ideas of simple ways to measure tiny amounts of excess >power. > >Anything you could do to make it actually perform some work might help >in getting it past the patent examiner. > >-- Bob Horst Since it is only 5 cm x 15 cm how about sealing it in a thermos bottle with a thermometer? Maybe attach a micropone to the thermos in order to be able to tell the if device is still working without disturbing it. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 06:09:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA15467; Wed, 14 May 1997 06:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 06:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:02:30 -0600 (MDT) From: Jorg Ostrowski To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: gwatson microtronics.com.au Subject: Finsrud Device In-Reply-To: <199705140313.WAA16480 natasha.eden.com> Message-Id: Organization: Calgary Free-Net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"hZzT82.0.Zn3.fZRUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Has anyone else built/replicated the Norwegian sculpture to verify claims? __________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm _____________________________________________________________ On Tue, 13 May 1997, Scott Little wrote: > At 08:15 AM 5/14/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: > > >I know of several other devices (Finstrud, Gary, Kawai, > >Bob Shannon's Barkenhausen Effect Battery and many US patents) which > >show magnetic devices can do work. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 06:11:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA15660; Wed, 14 May 1997 06:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 06:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:07:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705141307.IAA20907 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device Resent-Message-ID: <"7D9Bv1.0.cq3.AbRUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:10 PM 5/14/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: >So the US gov will patent rubbish?????????? I guess that living in Australia gives one a distorted perspective on our patent office. The answer is YES. There is no requirement for the patented device to actually work. All you have to do is convince the patent examiner with nice drawings and words that it does. >Have YOU ever built any of the devices to check out their claims? Yes, several. None of them showed any signs of working. This is not surprising. If your device is truly what you say it is, you have created something entirely unique. >Approx 38 hours. Buy an extra pack of Blu-tak and keep it going indefinitely...OK? >The Finstrud device will run for around 4 weeks before it stops. >Guess that makes it not OU? I don't know about this device. Has anyone built an independent version of it? 4 weeks is on the order of how long I'd expect a carefully concealed battery to last... >By the way, have you viewed the mpeg of this device? no...what's the address again? Thanks > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax > Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 07:06:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA20424; Wed, 14 May 1997 06:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 06:55:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705140848.ZM14596 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:48:59 -0500 In-Reply-To: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) "Re: Minto Wheel" (May 14, 2:10am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minto Wheel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"UjR_R.0._-4.YHSUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On May 14, 2:10am, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 5:27 PM 5/13/97, John Steck wrote: > [snip] > >Given the existing > >device runs at a reported blistering 1 RPM, the rotation scale up IMO is the > >biggest hurdle (at least for this application). The gear tooth stresses are > >too high. What is the efficiency drop off for generators run at slower than > >rated speeds? Do slow RPM generators exist? > > Chain drives can be made very efficient, and should scale up just fine. Sorry, I should have been more clear. Gear and sprocket tooth stresses are too high to use common materials and stock items to safely scale up that far. For example, just to put it in perspective, that would be a gearbox of thirty six (36) 1:10 inline gears. Using a minor gear of 4" in diameter (given the shaft is at least 1 1/2" dia) requires the major to be 40" in diameter. The torque and shear stresses at the front of the pack would be ridiculously high. Hopefully middle ground can be found speeding up the wheel and slowing down the generator requirements. Most likely, this conumdrum is the reason for the inventor's altruism. I guess the MW is similar to Greg Watson's invention in that the quest now becomes, what do we do with it? -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 07:51:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA26158; Wed, 14 May 1997 07:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <33797992.FF70A663 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:36:34 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: What is the principle of the Simple OU Device X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LRRnS.0.dO6.63TUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, First, I congratulate Greg Watson for this unbelievable success. This is an hard to absorbable shock to unscientific philosophies covering the mainstream science. What will be next step? It should be the understanding of the effect, I think, before filling the patent, before optimizing the effect, before up-scaling and before commercialization. First, sketch the magnet-ball interaction: First draw the magnetic pattern along the pathway of the ball. Maybe most important characteristic of this pattern is the asymmetrical geometry. Next examine the motion of the ball: Ball is first accelerated toward to magnets and force acting on ball is incrementing also. Let trace forces, accelerations and velocities as function of the time, They should be highly nonlinear curves. Let compare the accelerating part of the curves with the decelerating part. Times of accelerating ad decelerating phases are not equals. So magnetic to kinetic energy and kinetic to magnetic energy translations times are found different. Is there any clue here? Is the magnetic energy translation is time dependent ? Not mentioned on macroscopic models, but in molecular and atomic scale, everything is dynamic and moving so microscopic processes can not be described without time variable. It is like pressure. On macroscopic model laws are introduced without time variable. But in molecular scale pressure itself is described by velocities of individual molecules, by number of collisions per seconds and mean free path of molecules. If the excess energy is extracted by the time asymmetry of the magnetic energy translation, it is possible to see this effect also in asymmetric magnetic-electric energy translations: For example generating magnetical saw tooth signal or some asymmetric pulses around a permanent magnet or other materials having magnetic properties (ferromagnetics, diamagnetics, paramagnetics). If the OU effect lies on this principle, purely electronic experiments will show considerable more OU effects because the frequencies and asymmetries of signals can be increased to Mhz or Ghz regions while the mechanical frequencies are restricted to few Hz. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 07:52:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA26638 for billb@eskimo.com; Wed, 14 May 1997 07:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:52:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: otecnor emirates.net.ae Wed May 14 07:52:39 1997 Received: from ns2.emirates.net.ae (ns2.emirates.net.ae [194.170.1.40]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA26560 for ; Wed, 14 May 1997 07:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.170.124.174] (csb045.emirates.net.ae [194.170.2.105]) by ns2.emirates.net.ae (SMI-8.6/8.6) with SMTP id SAA20871 for ; Wed, 14 May 1997 18:51:43 +0400 X-Sender: otecnor emirates.net.ae Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Old-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:11:02 +0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: OBRL-News (by way of otecnor@emirates.net.ae (otecnor)) Subject: OBRL - Your vote needed to block new Nazi Usenet group X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: Hi everybody, I now the herbelow message does not relate to the activities of this email list,but I know for sure that if such people were left in power there may be no more email list as this one,also,please,"lets put some sand in their wheels" it will only take you few seconds... Apologise again for the disgression. Best Wishes to all -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Orgone Biophysical Research Lab http://id.mind.net/community/orgonelab/index.htm Forwarded News Item Please copy and distribute to other interested individuals and groups ********** Submitted by Friedeman Becker, Germany > We have understood that a few Neo-Nazi groups are trying to create > (again) a usenet group where they want to keep in contact with each other > regarding their activities. I believe it is not necessary to dwell further > on these activities. > The group is rec.music.white-power > To create such a group, they have to win a referendum that is always > organised when a new usenet group is created. All persons with an email > address, and only those, can vote in this referendum. > It is IMPORTANT to vote only once, otherwise the vote is cancelled. > To prevent the creation of this group, you have to: > 1. Send this message to people you know > 2. Send an email to the following address: > music-vote sub-rosa.com > with as contents (not 'subject') ONLY the following line: > I vote NO on rec.music.white-power > Since the vote is automatic, it is IMPORTANT to send the exact line as it > is given above, without adding anything, not even a name. And please send > it only once or it becomes invalid ! Also, > PLEASE FORWARD THIS LETTER TO > EVERYONE YOU KNOW WITH AN E-MAIL > ADDRESS TO PREVENT THE GROUP FOUNDERS > FROM CREATING THIS GROUP. ------ End of forwarded message ------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 08:33:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA00388; Wed, 14 May 1997 08:23:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:23:28 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:12:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970514101237_1414979292 emout18.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device Resent-Message-ID: <"uhsFw2.0.p5.kZTUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg, In a message dated 5/14/97 6:02:25 AM, you wrote: <> By this do you mean that the field intensity reduces, or that the gradient in the intensity (force) reduces? Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 08:58:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA03871; Wed, 14 May 1997 08:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3379DDB4.331D interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:43:48 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT (Part 2) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OkvL42.0.By.rsTUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT (Part 2) > > CONCLUSION > > It seems it may be very worthwhile to test appropriate semiconducting > material, in particular very pure Ga doped with P, but also others like Si > doped with P, for the TED effect. One possible source of materials for a > quick check are Hall effect devices. Horace, how about modified solar cells for test of the TED in silicon? _________________________ | | | xxx(finger)xxxxxxxxxx | vertical bus----|>x | | x | | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | | x | | x | | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | |_______________________| A typical layout of the current collecting grid on some solar cells is shown above. Suppose the vertical bus strip is ground off using abrasive material so the parallel fingers remain. Now, if we use the ohmic contacts provided by the top and bottom fingers, we have a very long, thin layer of P or N type silicon. Of course, one boundary of the layer is the P-N junction of the cell, but I am assuming the rectifying nature of the DARK junction will act as a "wall" for the TED process. Do we need a "N on P" solar cell with the N type silicon on top? Since I'm a solid-state clutz, Horace, I'll leave it to you to assess the merits of such a configuration. Any extra fingers would not matter - I think. It sure would provide a long stretch of semiconductor with ohmic contacts at each end. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 09:40:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA11017; Wed, 14 May 1997 09:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:23:38 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Minto Wheel Resent-Message-ID: <"C24lo2.0.uh2.HVUUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On May 14, 2:10am, Horace Heffner wrote: > >> At 5:27 PM 5/13/97, John Steck wrote: >> [snip] >> >Given the existing >> >device runs at a reported blistering 1 RPM, the rotation scale up IMO is the >> >biggest hurdle (at least for this application). The gear tooth stresses are >> >too high. What is the efficiency drop off for generators run at slower than >> >rated speeds? Do slow RPM generators exist? >> >> Chain drives can be made very efficient, and should scale up just fine. > >Sorry, I should have been more clear. Gear and sprocket tooth stresses are too >high to use common materials and stock items to safely scale up that far. Oh! Sorry. You wanted fast, effective, *and* cheap. (You only get to pick any two.) >For >example, just to put it in perspective, that would be a gearbox of thirty six >(36) 1:10 inline gears. Using a minor gear of 4" in diameter (given the shaft >is at least 1 1/2" dia) requires the major to be 40" in diameter. The torque >and shear stresses at the front of the pack would be ridiculously high. Chain drives ave been used on all kinds of big applications, including earth moving equipment. I had in mind a large but efficient chain drive using multiple chains, and certainly *much* larger gear diameters than 4". There is also the matter of tooth width, which can be large. > Hopefully middle ground can be found speeding up the wheel and slowing down >the generator requirements. Most likely, this conumdrum is the reason for the >inventor's altruism. > >I guess the MW is similar to Greg Watson's invention in that the quest now >becomes, what do we do with it? Replicate it - when details are available. > >-- >John E. Steck >Motorola Inc. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 10:12:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA15315; Wed, 14 May 1997 09:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:53:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705141146.ZM15885 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:46:45 -0500 In-Reply-To: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) "Re: Minto Wheel" (May 14, 11:22am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minto Wheel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"SIcgO3.0.7l3.7uUUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On May 14, 11:22am, Horace Heffner wrote: > Oh! Sorry. You wanted fast, effective, *and* cheap. (You only get to pick > any two.) Darn! > Chain drives ave been used on all kinds of big applications, including > earth moving equipment. I had in mind a large but efficient chain drive > using multiple chains, and certainly *much* larger gear diameters than 4". > There is also the matter of tooth width, which can be large. Yes, I am aware of many possible options. My concern deals with the number and size ratios of the nested gears. I am still trying to keep this device concept to a layman's backyard-build-it-in-your-garage type device. There are many options if you take it to an industrial scale. -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 10:31:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA17596; Wed, 14 May 1997 10:11:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:11:19 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:12:42 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Suggestions for semiconductor source Resent-Message-ID: <"4zH1p.0.BH4.c8VUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am looking for suggestions for a source of semiconductors to test for the thermal electromagnetic drift (TED) effect. I have seen a number of Hall effect sensors listed in catalogs, but they have had other circuitry included on the chip, like temperature compensation, amplifier, and Schmidt trigger circuitry. Maybe a FET or MOSFET would work? Looking for a junction free piece of n-type semiconducter with two leads. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 11:01:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA01740; Wed, 14 May 1997 10:50:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:50:40 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:47:50 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT (Part 2) Resent-Message-ID: <"O4vfP.0.1R.jjVUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:43 AM 5/14/97, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > >Horace, how about modified solar cells for test of the TED in silicon? I like you're ideas, Frank. Especially this time, as I see you responded before I sent out the question! > > _________________________ > | | > | xxx(finger)xxxxxxxxxx | >vertical bus----|>x | > | x | > | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | > | x | > | x | > | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | > |_______________________| > >A typical layout of the current collecting grid on some solar cells is >shown above. Suppose the vertical bus strip is ground off using >abrasive material so the parallel fingers remain. Now, if we use the >ohmic contacts provided by the top and bottom fingers, we have a very >long, thin layer of P or N type silicon. Of course, one boundary of >the layer is the P-N junction of the cell, but I am assuming the >rectifying nature of the DARK junction will act as a "wall" for the >TED process. Let me see if I understand what you are saying. The above is a sun side view of the solar cell. The "vertical bus" is a bus that runs alond the side of the chip and connects the fingers. If the side bus is removed, and if current is generated in the chip by the TED effect in a top to bottom fashion as seen in your drawing, then the fingers do not have a significat effect in shorting out the chip because they are parallel to each othe and not conncted and they are perpendicular to the current flow. The top and bottom fingers can be used for the two test leads. There would in practice be many fingers between them where you show the single middle finger. There are two big flat layers of silicon made from one silicon chip. Usually the top N layer is created by doping the P type chip with B or P to provide a volume resistivity of 1-10 ohm-centimeters and creates an N-P junction at most 1 micron from the surface. [Considine, Energy Technology Handbook] The second layer is isolated from the first, for our purposes, because the barrier potential is too high to be overcome. So, we can ignore the bottom P layer which is typically covered underneath with a layer of metal. >Do we need a "N on P" solar cell with the N type silicon >on top? I think an N type silicon would be best, based on the much cleaner peaks produced in cyclotron resonance experiments. However, holes exhibit the effect also, so might work fine. I'm looking for quick, effective, and cheap. Ha, and they said there's no such thing as a free lunch! If this works I'll buy you a free lunch! >Since I'm a solid-state clutz, Horace, I'll leave it to you to >assess the merits of such a configuration. Hey, I'm just learning this stuff on the fly by reading books. I hope I didn't give you the impression I actually know what I'm doing! >Any extra fingers would not >matter - I think. It sure would provide a long stretch of semiconductor >with ohmic contacts at each end. > >Frank Stenger I agree the junction barrier should isolate the two layers, for our purposes. The top layer is the high conductivity layer, which is good, but the bottom layer is thicker. Might be worth sanding the metal off the bottom layer, except for the ends, and trying that too. Maybe even sand both sides off. The bottom layer has a low conductivity, though, it appears. Some photocells don't have parallel fingers, but use grids or tree like leaves. These would make using the top layer difficult because you would have to remove the metal fingers, probably by acid, because the top layer is so thin. Thanks, Frank. I'm off to root around my junk boxes to look for an old solar cell. Now, there's this little matter of chopped op-amps, etc., that I know nothing about... Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 11:43:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA28948; Wed, 14 May 1997 11:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: 14 May 97 13:19:41 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: What is the principle of the Simple OU D Message-ID: <970514171941_100433.1541_BHG94-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"veCXq1.0.A47.BAWUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've not been following the story very well, but I understand that Greg Watson now feels confident that he has a device which self-sustains its motion. Hamdi writes: > What will be next step? It should be the understanding of the > effect, I think, before filling the patent, before optimizing the > effect, before up-scaling and before commercialization. I can't agree. If the device acts as described, then either some subtle effect is producing an anomalous result, or some conventional but overlooked phenomenon is making the gadget look like that. Either way, it would make a great toy. It could be sold as "Be the first on YOUR block to own a 'Perpetual Motion Machine'. Amaze your friends!" In other words, it really doesn't matter whether it is really a PM machine, a zpf-tapper - or just a curiosity. In fact, it could be patented not as a PM machine, but as a "PM machine" - deliberately turning the problem on its head - if you advertise something (or talk to the patent people) about something which *looks* like a PM machine (but us proper scientific-like people *know* it can't be) then you avoid the problems. And nobody can accuse you of fraud, either. There was an SF story in an old Analog many years ago. A group had found that some special coils could reduce their own weight by about 50%. So they sold them as "space wave tapper" coils - you had to pull a cotton thread behind the toy to make it work. But the inventors knew that some of the people who bought them would find that (if the power was off) the cotton thread would not support the coils without breaking ... and they would wonder why, and they would start to investigate. Is this really too subtle an approach? I happen to think it's bombproof! On another matter, I would entirely agree with Greg about prizes and acclaim. Who needs 'em? Pulling a stunt like the one he says he has would be satisfaction enough. On yet another matter, I missed most of the thread about tapping the Earth's rotation. Probably someone else will have suggested that a Foucault pendulum converts at least some of the Earth's rotational energy into something or other. Surely that could be used in some way or other .... ah, there's a thought: maybe Greg is doing just that! Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 11:58:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA04256; Wed, 14 May 1997 11:47:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:47:22 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970513072723.006be4f4 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:27:23 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: More CF Bashing I presume Cc: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu Resent-Message-ID: <"MeJmF2.0.I21.uYWUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Got the book this weekend. Thanks Bart. Too busy to give more than a brief review. There will be more info in the Cold Fusion Times review. ------------------------------------------ Draft Initial Review of: "Yes, We Have No Neutrons: An Eye-Opening Tour Through the Twists and Turns of Bad Science" A.K. Dewdney Wiley Press Short. Pleasant. "Yes, We Have ..." is somewhat more detailed and timely than the first cf book by Peat. Unfortunately Mr. Dewdney glosses over the cold fusion experimental data which demonstrates confirmation of cold fusion, reported by Drs. Fleischmann and Pons by the US Navy, Los Alamos, CEREM (the French Atomic energy Commission), NASA, and in several other countries. Technical issues, and milestones are not discussed. In this book, there is no mention that the excess heat levels have increased since '89. No mention that the field has expanded to publications having near monthly experimental and theoretical papers. Instead, Mr. Dewdney focuses nearly exclusively upon controversies from (or just before) 3/89 to late 90. Mr. Dewdney cites as references the books by Taubes, Close and Mallove, but the book refers to neither papers, conference proceedings, nor reports. As such, there is negligible scientific discussion beyond the '89 handwaving and the issues that Mr. Dewdney thought interesting when he read three books on this subject. Instead, one hypothesis is that the scientific experimental, and supporting nuclear and material data are simply ignored so that Mr. Dewdney can declare cold fusion a "pathological science". Thus, rather than writing an erudite scholarly book about cf, Mr. Dewdney appears to have joined a small group of TB-skeptics who make money selling their scienticially inaccurate books purporting to describe the state of the field of cold fusion. In summary, the single chapter on cf is interesting, but contains neither recent nor in-depth scientific material. On the plus side, the book is well written and there are other interesting chapters, e.g. on Biosphere II. Mitchell Swartz (mia world.std.com) =================================================== At 08:56 AM 5/10/97 +0000, Bart Simon wrote: >Hi, > >I ran across a reference to some new book by A.K. Dewdney called > >Apparently there's stuff about CF - more pathologizing I presume... >but you never know. Its not in our library here yet, has anyone on >Vortex looked at it? > >cheers, >Bart Simon (bssimon helix.ucsd.edu0 > > >============================================ >Bart Simon >Dept. of Sociology/Science Studies-0533 >University of California at San Diego (UCSD) >9500 Gilman Dr. >La Jolla, CA, 92093-0533 > >phone: 619-534-0491/fax: 619-534-3388 >=========================================== > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 12:15:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA11381; Wed, 14 May 1997 12:10:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:10:23 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:09:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970514150911_-1599544683 emout13.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: ash freenet.calgary.ab.ca Subject: Re : Finsrud Device Resent-Message-ID: <"C4ThX1.0.en2.TuWUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 14/05/1997 14:09:16 , you wrote : << Suj : Finsrud Device Date : 14/05/1997 14:09:16 From: ash freenet.calgary.ab.ca (Jorg Ostrowski) Resent-from: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: vortex-l eskimo.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: gwatson microtronics.com.au Has anyone else built/replicated the Norwegian sculpture to verify claims? __________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect >> Hi Jorg, About the Finsrud machine, I have some pictures from Stephan Hartman and a Videotape, have you seen the BIG SPRING in the center just bellow the copper ball.....Do you think that this spring is only to decorate the machine ? perhaps it is a good energy tank ( for two months) ?....What do you think about this ? Truly, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 13:28:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA15311; Wed, 14 May 1997 13:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:19:40 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: TED - First experimental results negative Resent-Message-ID: <"v7-jI1.0.9l3.UyXUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A solar cell was obtained that was made up of many pieces of probably surplus silicon chip fragment tiled together in a protective plastic box with dimensions about 45x75x5 mm. Some of the tiles had only parallel conductive strips deposited on their surfaces. They were affixed to a metal foil on the bottom and had stips of foil laid over their tops to collect the current. A 5x12 mm trapezoidal chip fragment was removed that had only 3 parallel metal stips on the top. The parallel metal strips were about 2.5 mm apart and ran diagonally across the chip. The chip had a lacework of metal grid lines deposited on its back side. The potential front to back under a flourescent light was 23 mV. Two pieces of No.40 copper wire were soldered to the outer most metal stips on the top of the chip. The leads were then soldered back onto the original lugs in the protective plastic package from which the much larger composite cell had been removed . Resistance was 26.7 ohms in the dark. Holding it up to the light made the resistance drop to under 25 ohms. The DMM was then set to mV. A 35 MGo magnet was then moved about the chip. There was no sign of voltage. There was no response on the micro-amp scale either. When set to measure resisitance, however, the motion of the magnet was clearly sensed by the meter, i.e. the change in sensed current due to moving flux, but there was no sustained change in resistance mesured when no element was in motion. Now a much more sensitive meter is needed. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 13:29:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA26826; Wed, 14 May 1997 13:25:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:25:14 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:24:54 PST8PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: H radiation? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <1191CAC7664 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"alXAO3.0.4Z6.f-XUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts everyone! Hey, I've got a simple physics question that I haven't been able to figure out. Does a hydrogen atom emit EM waves when it's at ground state? A single H atom can be viewed as a simple dipole, and if that dipole is constantly switching polarities (which it is), it ought to be sending out EM waves, even if they are very weak. If this is true, where does the energy in the waves come from? Vacuum? Sorry if everyone knows this but me or if the answer is super-obvious. JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 13:56:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA18360; Wed, 14 May 1997 13:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: 14 May 97 16:43:28 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Kasparov versus Deep Blue Message-ID: <970514204327_72240.1256_EHB48-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Jplqq2.0.lU4.gKYUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex This is off topic, but I would like to mention an excellent op-ed opinion piece in today's New York Times, "Yes, Computers *Can* Think," by Drew McDermott, professor of computer science at Yale. I agree with him whole heartedly. He says: Presumably your brain works because each of its billions of neurons carries out hundreds of tiny operations each second, none of which in isolation demonstrates any intelligence at all. . . . When people say that human grandmasters do not examine 200 million move sequences per second, as the computer does, I ask them, "How do you know?" The answer is usually that human grandmasters are not *aware* of considering so many options. But humans are unaware of almost everything that goes on in our minds. . . . So what shall we say about Deep Blue? How about: It's a "little bit" intelligent. . . . It is about time someone said this! Computers think at least as well as ants, bees, or migrating birds do. It is purely mechanical "hard wired" thinking, but so is the instinctive behavior that drives ants. As McDermott says, computers think a "little bit." Birds think "a little bit" more and we think a lot. The difference between animals is surely a matter of degree, not kind. A neuron is a neuron. Machines do a different kind of thinking, but since the results are the same the processes must be the same on some level. You cannot get a chess solution out of nowhere. Nobody gave the computer exact instructions, like a list of every possible board position and the best move in every case. I would even assert that a $5 hand calculator "thinks" in some primitive sense, at about the same level as a flatworm or a jellyfish. It is not alive, because it does not grow or reproduce. Deep Blue is not alive either, but I say it thinks. I don't understand why people get so het up about the idea. It is like getting upset because mice, birds and people have the same kind of metabolism. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 13:56:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA30783; Wed, 14 May 1997 13:48:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:48:18 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:47:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970514164633_68916077 emout10.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H radiation? Resent-Message-ID: <"I-Jdz2.0.vW7.HKYUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 5/14/97 8:29:42 PM, Jay Olsen wrote: << Hey, I've got a simple physics question that I haven't been able to figure out. Does a hydrogen atom emit EM waves when it's at ground state? A single H atom can be viewed as a simple dipole, and if that dipole is constantly switching polarities (which it is), it ought to be sending out EM waves, even if they are very weak. If this is true, where does the energy in the waves come from? Vacuum? >> Precisely. See my paper: H. Puthoff, "Ground state of hydrogen as a zero-point-fluctuation-determined state," Phys. Rev. D, vol 35, pp. 3266-3269 (1987). As I state in the Abstract: "We show here that, within the stochastic electrodynamic formulation and at the level of the Bohr theory, the ground state of the hydrogen atom can be precisely defined as resulting from a dynamic equilibrium between radiation emitted due to acceleration of the electron in its ground-state orbit and radiation absorbed from zero-point fluctuations of the background vacuum electromagnetic field, thereby resolving the issue of radiative collapse of the Bohr atom." I have a paper in process that generalizes this to all quantum ground states, which are non-radiative despite accelerating ground-state orbits, because of just this equilibrium process. Best regards, Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 13:57:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA32184; Wed, 14 May 1997 13:53:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:53:42 -0700 Message-Id: <3379C9B0.C401C782 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:18:24 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is the principle of the Simple OU Device X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970514171941_100433.1541_BHG94-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"z22oD2.0.ks7.LPYUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > Hamdi writes: > > > What will be next step? It should be the understanding of the > > effect, I think, before filling the patent, before optimizing the > > effect, before up-scaling and before commercialization. > > I can't agree. If the device acts as described, then either some subtle > effect is producing an anomalous result, or some conventional but > overlooked phenomenon is making the gadget look like that. Either way, > it would make a great toy. It could be sold as "Be the first on YOUR > block to own a 'Perpetual Motion Machine'. Amaze your friends!" Yes, I this might work, but even better if it is sold as a "Kit" "Build your own 'Perpetual Motion Machine'. Amaze your friends!" But I am afraid that nobody on the block knows 'Perpetual Motion Machine' really means. Regards, Hamdix From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 14:00:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA32026; Wed, 14 May 1997 13:53:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:53:01 -0700 Message-ID: <337A2649.2BCF interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:53:29 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT (Part 2) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FmjqO2.0.9q7.gOYUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > I see you responded > before I sent out the question! > Yeh, and that worries me, Horace. I don't think I could survive a direct psychic hookup to your brain! > Let me see if I understand what you are saying. Yes, that's about what I had in mind. That's a good idea about using the rear surface, also. Hmmmm..... fingernail emery boards should work for the grinding. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 14:01:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA19075; Wed, 14 May 1997 13:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3379CCE6.294CA66A verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:32:06 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TNOmp2.0.Uf4.kPYUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > Since it is only 5 cm x 15 cm how about sealing it in a thermos bottle with > a thermometer? Maybe attach a micropone to the thermos in order to be able > to tell the if device is still working without disturbing it. Yes, If the temperature does not rise we will conclude that it violate the 2'th Law. Otherwise it may slow down the Earth. Regards, Hamdix From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 14:17:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA17596; Wed, 14 May 1997 10:11:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:11:19 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:12:42 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Suggestions for semiconductor source Resent-Message-ID: <"4zH1p.0.BH4.c8VUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am looking for suggestions for a source of semiconductors to test for the thermal electromagnetic drift (TED) effect. I have seen a number of Hall effect sensors listed in catalogs, but they have had other circuitry included on the chip, like temperature compensation, amplifier, and Schmidt trigger circuitry. Maybe a FET or MOSFET would work? Looking for a junction free piece of n-type semiconducter with two leads. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 14:21:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA20891; Wed, 14 May 1997 14:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970514140235.00b7f5fc mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:02:37 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: Kasparov versus Deep Blue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rwJZR1.0.K65.SYYUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Who won anyway ??? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 14:21:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA05732 for billb@eskimo.com; Wed, 14 May 1997 14:21:25 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:21:25 -0700 X-Envelope-From: harti harti.com Wed May 14 14:21:16 1997 Received: from mail.bbtt.com ([193.203.161.7]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA05511; Wed, 14 May 1997 14:20:47 -0700 Received: from ns.bbtt.de ([193.203.161.162]) by mail.bbtt.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA10690; Wed, 14 May 1997 23:23:54 +0200 Old-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:23:54 +0200 Message-Id: <199705142123.XAA10690 mail.bbtt.com> X-Sender: harti shell2.ba.best.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: harti harti.com (Stefan Hartmann) Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: At 08:15 14.05.97 +0930, gwatson microtronics.com.au wrote: >Hi All, > >Just a short note to try to answer those questions I can. > > >1) There is NO outside power source. > >2) The device contains only ceramic magnet and ferromagnetic materials >(some balsa, a few bearings and some plactic "U" channel as well). > >3) The device produces rotary torque. Can be stopped with very little >pressure from two fingers on a steel 4mm shaft. > > Hi Greg, one important question. What is the revolution per minute of your device ? Can you at least post a JPEG pic of it, just showing the "body case housing" of it, not revealing the contens ? ( So that nobody can say, Greg is just "joking"..) How big (size) is it in this moment ? I talked with Dieter Bauer about your PM motor today and he suggested that it might work on eddy currents building up in the iron stator and thus the "V" form is important how fast the iron is sucked into the rotating track and how fast it gets out. Maybe you could try it with ferrite as the stator material and if this still works, eddy currents do not play any role... He also has some ideas of a theory of moving "potentials" which are NOT conservative he told me, so energy could be generated by these "moving potentials". He will try to formulate this with some new mathematical formulas ! Good luck for your patent application. Regards, Stefan. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497 FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498 email: harti harti.com Web site: http://www.harti.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:03:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA26568; Wed, 14 May 1997 14:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3379D93B.1E30C35 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:24:43 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: TED - First experimental results negative X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eQFu03.0.yU6.g9ZUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, Did you take account the collisions of electrons with the structure or with each others (mean free path) when you builded the TEDD theory? This may destroy the effect because this not similar to hall effect. May a computer simulation is usefull to simulate break-up the cycloid curves by collisions. Regards, hamdix From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:07:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA27857; Wed, 14 May 1997 14:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: 14 May 97 17:50:26 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: What is the principle of the Simple Message-ID: <970514215026_100433.1541_BHG64-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"lwPTy3.0.Bp6.5HZUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi, > But I am afraid that nobody on the block knows 'Perpetual Motion > Machine' really means. Oh, I think they know quite well what it means. They know the *phrase*. Knowing the phrase makes them believe they know what it means. I bet that few understand what "one kilowatt-hour" really means, but they know what it signifies. People are, in general, much brighter than they are given credit for. That very much applies to the "non-techie" ones. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:09:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA26479; Wed, 14 May 1997 14:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:45:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:44:08 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Kasparov versus Deep Blue Resent-Message-ID: <"_VvUU.0.wS6.P9ZUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To: Vortex > >This is off topic, but I would like to mention an excellent op-ed opinion >piece in today's New York Times, "Yes, Computers *Can* Think," by Drew snip-- >I would even assert that a $5 hand calculator "thinks" in some primitive >sense, at about the same level as a flatworm or a jellyfish. It is not alive, >because it does not grow or reproduce. Deep Blue is not alive either, but I >say it thinks. I don't understand why people get so het up about the idea. It >is like getting upset because mice, birds and people have the same kind of >metabolism. > >- Jed Yes, I would tend to agree with your above statements. Why should anyone take "offense" at the idea of a "thinking computer?" After all, in terms of its 'thinking (processing?) ability,' presumably the "computer is made in our 'image and likeness'." hmmm... this sounds a bit familiar.... :-) Evan Soule' josephnewman earthlink.net ".... the magnetic field consists of gyroscopic-type particles which are the mechanical essence of E=mc^2 and represent an orderly flow of kinetic energy." --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:09:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA27200; Wed, 14 May 1997 14:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:48:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Chuck Davis To: Jay Olson Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:39:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <11A21201DDF hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.4 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: Kasparov versus Deep Blue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"CWN_Q2.0.ve6._CZUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 14-May-97, Jay Olson wrote: >> >> Who won anyway ??? >> >Deep Blue. Kasparov was pretty "put out" about the whole deal too -- >or so it seemed from the 5 second vido clip I saw on CNN. I can't >blame him though. >JAY OLSON HorsePucky! Socialists are _always_ sore losers :) -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:10:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA29808; Wed, 14 May 1997 15:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <337A36BD.79AC microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:33:41 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device References: <970514101237_1414979292 emout18.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"65axN1.0.WH7.oSZUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Puthoff aol.com wrote: > > Greg, > > In a message dated 5/14/97 6:02:25 AM, you wrote: > > < REDUCE as the ball rolls up the ramp. >> > > By this do you mean that the field intensity reduces, or that the gradient in > the intensity (force) reduces? > > Hal Puthoff Hi Hal, The field intensity decreases along the uphill path. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:12:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA26542; Wed, 14 May 1997 14:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705142135.RAA23502 relay1.smtp.psi.net> From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Re: Thermal Electromagnetic Drift Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:36:34 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"blsEu1.0.MU6.a9ZUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, Have you considered that the drift may also take place in the wires connecting the semiconductor and the meter, since the integrated magnetic field gradient sums to zero around the loop, with a larger gradient for shorter distances for the wire. Perhaps you need to find a material where the effect cannot take place! George Holz Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:14:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA29142; Wed, 14 May 1997 15:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:00:01 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: Kasparov versus Deep Blue Sender: kurtz IMAP2.ASU.EDU To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Simeon for Win32 Version 4.0.9 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: NORMAL X-Authentication: none Resent-Message-ID: <"Wm5iv.0.A77.cOZUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 14 May 97 16:43:28 EDT Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> wrote: > To: Vortex > Deep Blue is not alive either, but I > say it thinks. > - Jed > Well, I say it doesn't. So there! -- Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:24:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA00849; Wed, 14 May 1997 14:48:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:48:23 -0700 From: Chuck Davis To: Epitaxy Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:35:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970514140235.00b7f5fc mail.localaccess.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.4 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: Kasparov versus Deep Blue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"S-80-.0.BD.cCZUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 14-May-97, Epitaxy wrote: >Who won anyway ??? #DEEP BLUE# :) -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:27:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA06386; Wed, 14 May 1997 15:17:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:17:30 -0700 Date: 14 May 97 18:14:50 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Subject: Re: Minto Wheel Message-ID: <970514221450_100060.173_JHB52-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"xeKFu1.0.iZ1.vdZUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> Hopefully middle ground can be found speeding up the wheel and slowing down the generator requirements. << It might be possible to use a clock or watch mechanism up to the scape wheel - they're quite efficient with jewelled bearings. Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:28:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA06818; Wed, 14 May 1997 15:19:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:19:27 -0700 Message-ID: <337A3A2B.6498 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:48:19 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is the principle of the Simple OU Device References: <970514171941_100433.1541_BHG94-1 CompuServe.COM> <3379C9B0.C401C782@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DhahX1.0.Sg1.kfZUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > Chris Tinsley wrote: > > > Hamdi writes: > > > > > What will be next step? It should be the understanding of the > > > effect, I think, before filling the patent, before optimizing the > > > effect, before up-scaling and before commercialization. > > > > I can't agree. If the device acts as described, then either some subtle > > effect is producing an anomalous result, or some conventional but > > overlooked phenomenon is making the gadget look like that. Either way, > > it would make a great toy. It could be sold as "Be the first on YOUR > > block to own a 'Perpetual Motion Machine'. Amaze your friends!" > > Yes, I this might work, but even better if it is sold as a "Kit" > > "Build your own 'Perpetual Motion Machine'. Amaze your friends!" > > But I am afraid that nobody on the block knows 'Perpetual Motion > Machine' > really means. > > Regards, > > Hamdix Hi Hamdix, ITS NOT PERPETUAL MOTION. We just aren't sure where the energy is coming from!!!!!! -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:28:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA06458; Wed, 14 May 1997 14:26:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:26:18 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:25:57 PST8PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Kasparov versus Deep Blue Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <11A21201DDF hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"FSA523.0.na1.utYUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > Who won anyway ??? > Deep Blue. Kasparov was pretty "put out" about the whole deal too -- or so it seemed from the 5 second vido clip I saw on CNN. I can't blame him though. JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:34:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA00812; Wed, 14 May 1997 14:48:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:48:18 -0700 From: Chuck Davis To: Jay Olson Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:45:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1191CAC7664 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.4 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: H radiation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"9tynb2.0.cC.XCZUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 14-May-97, Jay Olson wrote: >Gnorts everyone! > Hey, I've got a simple physics question that I haven't been able >to figure out. Does a hydrogen atom emit EM waves when it's at >ground state? A single H atom can be viewed as a simple dipole, and >if that dipole is constantly switching polarities (which it is), it >ought to be sending out EM waves, even if they are very weak. If >this is true, where does the energy in the waves come from? Vacuum? >Sorry if everyone knows this but me or if the answer is >super-obvious. > JAY OLSON Question: If hydrogen has a resonant frequency of 1420 mHz, what might it be for oxygen, xenon, neon, argon and helium? Thanx, -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:37:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA01995; Wed, 14 May 1997 15:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <337A396A.7EFC microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:45:06 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is the principle of the Simple OU Device References: <33797992.FF70A663 verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7GI352.0.1V.SdZUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > Hi, > > First, I congratulate Greg Watson for this unbelievable success. This is > an hard to absorbable shock to unscientific philosophies covering the > mainstream science. I can show you many patents for self running devices. Surely they all can't be frauds. Some actually list input to output power. > What will be next step? It should be the understanding of the effect, I > think, before filling the patent, before optimizing the effect, before > up-scaling and before commercialization. > > First, sketch the magnet-ball interaction: > > First draw the magnetic pattern along the pathway of the ball. Maybe > most important characteristic of this pattern is the asymmetrical > geometry. > Next examine the motion of the ball: > Ball is first accelerated toward to magnets and force acting on ball is > incrementing also. Let trace forces, accelerations and velocities as > function of the time, They should be highly nonlinear curves. Let > compare the accelerating part of the curves with the decelerating part. > Times of accelerating ad decelerating phases are not equals. So magnetic > to kinetic energy and kinetic to magnetic energy translations times are > found different. > Is there any clue here? Is the magnetic energy translation is time > dependent ? Not mentioned on macroscopic models, but in molecular and > atomic scale, everything is dynamic and moving so microscopic processes > can not be described without time variable. It is like pressure. On > macroscopic model laws are introduced without time variable. But in > molecular scale pressure itself is described by velocities of individual > molecules, by number of collisions per seconds and mean free path of > molecules. > > If the excess energy is extracted by the time asymmetry of the magnetic > energy translation, it is possible to see this effect also in asymmetric > magnetic-electric energy translations: > > For example generating magnetical saw tooth signal or some asymmetric > pulses around a permanent magnet or other materials having magnetic > properties (ferromagnetics, diamagnetics, paramagnetics). If the OU > effect lies on this principle, purely electronic experiments will show > considerable more OU effects because the frequencies and asymmetries of > signals can be increased to Mhz or Ghz regions while the mechanical > frequencies are restricted to few Hz. > > Regards, > > Hamdi Ucar Hi Hamdi, Thanks for the input. I really don't believe I am the first to do this. Just maybe the first to talk about it in these mail groups. Check out the Kawai patent. I have done some simple testing which supports the claims. I do believe we don't really understand ferromagnetics. Coils and magnets, YES. Soft ferromagnetics, NO. I know of several anomalies from my switch mode psu design days and several others I have talked about here. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:48:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA11525; Wed, 14 May 1997 15:43:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:43:07 -0700 Message-ID: <337A3FB5.276F microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:11:57 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is the principle of the Simple References: <970514215026_100433.1541_BHG64-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MLqjt2.0.vp2.w_ZUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > Hamdi, > > > But I am afraid that nobody on the block knows 'Perpetual Motion > > Machine' really means. > > Oh, I think they know quite well what it means. They know the *phrase*. > Knowing the phrase makes them believe they know what it means. I bet > that few understand what "one kilowatt-hour" really means, but they know > what it signifies. > > People are, in general, much brighter than they are given credit for. > That very much applies to the "non-techie" ones. > > Chris Hi Chris, I demonstrated the device to several of my close friends as I made the video. They signed a "Statement of Witness" as to what they witnessed. No one was really impressed or REALLY interested. When I asked later about what they thought of the device, the general comment was one of "So What, all that will happen is the electricity companies will get richer". They could not see where there life or bank balance would benefit. I sort of agree. And as for PM, they couldn't care less. Seems we live in a very TECHO society, where new gadgets are being invented every day and the only people who really benefit are the BIG multinationals. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:50:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA05773; Wed, 14 May 1997 15:14:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:14:26 -0700 Date: 14 May 97 18:13:15 EDT From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Infinite Energy Issue #12 in Mail Message-ID: <970514221315_76570.2270_FHU40-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Ea9IG2.0.3Q1.1bZUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexians: Now entering our third volume/year of Infinite Energy Magazine. Issue #12 was mailed this week to subscbribers/recipients in 36 countries. Contents of Volume 2, Issue #12: Breaking Through, Editorial 3 Deceptive Appearances Letters to the Editor 5 Arthur C. Clarke on Cold Fusion in Discover 7 Cold Fusion and the Future Jed Rothwell 10 Ragland Triode Reactors Shipped Commercially Eugene Mallove 20 Dr. Randell Mills and BlackLight Power, Inc. Eugene Mallove 21 The Saint (Movie) Comes Marching In 22 CF Cell Makes DOE's John Huizenga Blink Dr. Robert T. Bush 23 The CF Work of Robert Bush: An Interview 25 Consequences of Lattice Occupational Symmetry Dr. Robert T. Bush 34 Calendar & ICCF-7 News 36 BRIEFS . ANS Meeting in June-Cold Fusion . CETI and ENECO in Patent Dispute . "No Oil" Plate . Palladium Futures, etc. . True Crackpot Physicist (Robert Park of APS) 40 "Weird Meet Again" Susan Seddon 43 Review of Wizard- Tesla Biography Jeffery Kooistra 44 Review of The Gravitational Force of the Sun (book by Dr. Pari Spolter) Thomas E. Phipps, Jr. 45 Energy Gain and Nuclear Transmutation by Low Energy p and d Nuclear Reactions Drs. H. Hora, J. Kelly, G.H. Miley 48 Arata and Zhang-Massive Helium/Heat Production in Cold Fusion -Abstracts; Comment by Dr. Talbot Chubb 53 Drs. Patterson and Cravens Receive New U.S. Patent (#5,607,563) on 100:1 Energy Cell 55 (full patent published) Experimenter's Corner: Segner-Marinov Turbine Stefan Marinov 61 Charge Clusters in Operation Hal Fox 62 Protonic Conductors and Cold Fusion Drs. A.L. Samgin and S.V. Vakarin 64 Production of Elements and Plasmoids Edward Lewis 69 Sincerely, Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief and Publisher INFINITE ENERGY: Cold Fusion and New Energy Technnology Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Fax: 603-224-5975 Phone: 603-228-4516 E-mail: 76570.2270 compuserve.com Typical 1996/97 press run: 5,000 copies/issue. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JedRothwell ********************************** GENERAL ORDER FORM ******************************* U.S./Canada Other Foreign Column 1 Column 2 (PRICES INCLUDE SHIPPING) * One year subscription to INFINITE ENERGY (6 issues) $29.95_________ $49.95________ (Beginning with premier issue, March/April 1995 - or any other issue.) (Please specify starting issue: #1, 2, 3, 4, 5&6, 7, 8, 9,10,11, 12, 13 etc. ) * Back Issues. ANY Six Issues (#5&6 combined count as 2) $29.95_________ $49.95________ * Three-Year Subscription, Including all back issues Vol1 and Vol.2 (18 issues) $89.85_________ $149.85________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 15:59:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA14027; Wed, 14 May 1997 15:55:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:55:36 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:55:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199705142255.SAA26850 spectre.mitre.org> To: gwatson microtronics.com.au CC: vortex-l eskimo.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net In-reply-to: <3379158D.39FA microtronics.com.au> (message from Greg Watson on Wed, 14 May 1997 10:59:49 +0930) Subject: Re: Greg & Shirley Watson Resent-Message-ID: <"c_NRm.0.5R3.dBaUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson said: > Thanks for all the supportive posts, but I really don't think my device > is all that great. I have been in business too long not to understand > that there is a very long and rocky road until I or others can offer a > 10kw home unit for sale. Call the toy companies, especially the upscale ones like F.A.O. Schwartz. The million or so you make there should finance a bit of research... Also if your apparatus is very repeatable, sell clocks. ;-) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 16:06:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA14752; Wed, 14 May 1997 16:00:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:00:03 -0700 Message-Id: <3379EDD9.899B54A1 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:52:41 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is the principle of the Simple X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970514215026_100433.1541_BHG64-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nBu2h1.0.Qc3.oFaUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > Hamdi, > > > But I am afraid that nobody on the block knows 'Perpetual Motion > > Machine' really means. > > Oh, I think they know quite well what it means. They know the *phrase*. > Knowing the phrase makes them believe they know what it means. I bet > that few understand what "one kilowatt-hour" really means, but they know > what it signifies. > > People are, in general, much brighter than they are given credit for. > That very much applies to the "non-techie" ones. > Yes, this true that they are smart, but this a kind of interest problem. People generally does not interest on principles but on results. They wants consume the energy cheaper. But it is difficult to explain them this is the way for the free energy until it gives some free energy. Are we caring whether our calculators works on batteries or with solar power? Still more than half of the people does not believe in UFO's. This is because the UFO's are not officially confirmed. Do you believe that an main media gives makes big news when one announce and start to sell perpetual motion machines? I believe that scientific conscience is not well established in our society. In the place that I live (Turkey) many of people even don't know what the word "Science" is stand for. This is my impression. It will be worth to make some pool on this subject. What the people is thinking about a demonstration toy claimed showing that the free energy is available ? Regards, Hamdix From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 16:19:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA12037 for billb@eskimo.com; Wed, 14 May 1997 16:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:19:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: havveye execpc.com Wed May 14 16:18:53 1997 Received: from mailgate.execpc.com (root mailgate.execpc.com [169.207.16.5]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA11980; Wed, 14 May 1997 16:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.execpc.com (mail [169.207.16.2]) by mailgate.execpc.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA09750; Wed, 14 May 1997 18:18:11 -0500 Received: from isetta.mdm.mke.execpc.com (isetta.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.69.130]) by mail.execpc.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id SAA15771; Wed, 14 May 1997 18:18:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: by isetta.mdm.mke.execpc.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC6093.1556CB80 isetta.mdm.mke.execpc.com>; Wed, 14 May 1997 18:17:29 -0500 Message-ID: <01BC6093.1556CB80 isetta.mdm.mke.execpc.com> From: Hawkeye To: "gwatson microtronics.com.au" Cc: "freenrg-l eskimo.com" , "neotech xbn.shore.net" , "newman-l emachine.com" , "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: RE: Greg & Shirley Watson Old-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:42:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: I would invest too, but my funds are very low at the moment. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 16:28:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA19883; Wed, 14 May 1997 16:23:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:23:04 -0700 Message-ID: <337AB96C.48A3 netcomuk.co.uk> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:21:16 -0700 From: Rob King Organization: Me X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC260 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Simple OU Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3BOGn3.0.Os4.LbaUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg, Con-grats on getting the looped closed on your device. Like a lot of people I have been watching your posts with baited breath, waiting for the point at which you succeed and you have, well done! As soon as I saw your post I went downstairs to the kitchen, fetched out all my magnets, 2 alu carpet gripper rods, a mouse ball and had a play. I set up the magnets in an arrow shape under the track with like poles acting towards the centre of the rod. \\\ \\\\\\\\ =========================0======= //////// /// It seemed to go further along the track when there were magnets there, but I cannot be absolutely sure, because I may tend to push the ball quicker with the magnets in place because I want it to work. I would love some pointers to get me off in the right direction with trying to reproduce this, anything you can give me? I cannot help thinking that the answer to it working has something to do with the ball rolling though the field. In other words it would fail to work if the ball was attached to an arm that passed it though the device. Maybe the Searl device works on a similar principle. Look forward to hearing from you :) Rob King From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 16:43:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA24571; Wed, 14 May 1997 16:40:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:40:17 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <337A4D44.1C0C math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:39:48 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is the principle of the Simple References: <970514215026_100433.1541_BHG64-1 CompuServe.COM> <337A3FB5.276F@microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RhbEE1.0.h_5.TraUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > > I demonstrated the device to several of my close friends as I made the > video. > > No one was really impressed or REALLY interested. > That is not too surprising. I guess you don't have any scientists as close friends. If you demonstrated the device to me, I would not be impressed, but I would be quite interested to figure out how it worked. Try showing it to a physicist next time. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 17:57:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA25863; Wed, 14 May 1997 17:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <337A59DD.6249 math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:33:33 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Kasparov versus Deep Blue References: <970514204327_72240.1256_EHB48-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lLP6A2.0.1K6.EebUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Computers think at least as well as ants, > bees, or migrating birds do.... > computers think a "little bit." Birds think "a little bit" more > and we think a lot. The difference between animals is surely a > matter of degree, not kind. Not necessarily true. Things such as phase changes can result in a qualitative difference in performance as some system parameter is varied. For example, ice and water are made from the same material, yet have very different properties as a function of temperature. The differences are not a matter of degree (pun intended), but instead change discontinuously even though temp changes continuosly. The idea that complex phenomena result from a series of gradual increments in complexity is soundly refuted by our present understanding of complexity. Thus, "thinking capacity" may increase incrementally as you suggest, but it is equally conceivable that it takes quantum leaps as a "brain" becomes more complex. We really don't know enough now to say one way or the other. As for whether something "thinks" or not: this is a matter of semantics and is not very interesting. The fact is a computer beat a human at chess. It doesn't matter what philosphical preconception people want to apply to this. "Artficial intelligence" will simply be the cumulative effect of all such improvements in functionality of machines. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 11:02:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA01440; Wed, 14 May 1997 10:49:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:49:22 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: "Frederick J. Sparber" (by way of "Frederick J. Sparber" ) Subject: Turdo-Diesel, P.U. Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 04:43:29 +0000 Message-ID: <19970514044327.AAA17136 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"wjUnE1.0.OM.WiVUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex: For the more adventurous, the 7,400 BTU/lb in the wet manure if mixed at a pound or two of water to a pound of manure can be heated in a steam jacketed pipe to say 150 psig or so and allowed to exit through an orifice where it will flash to a mixture of steam and manure. You will be using about 1,200 BTU for each pound of water that the has to be vaporized out of the 7,400 manure BTUs for 150 psig pressure. This can be mixed with air which is also under suitable pressure, say 75 psig, also. The kinetic energy of the steam-manure will cause additional compression to a steam-air-manure mix that can be ignited and thus do mechanical work provided that there is adequate mixing in the combustion chamber. This would probably be compatible with a diesel (compression ignition) engine, if one could work out the necessary modifications,perhaps even using a regular engine. Hide the lawnmower,Mary! :-) The exhaust heat could be fed back to pressurize the water-manure mix that is being pumped into the heater zone with a metering pump. Theoretically, this would be a combined steam-internal-combustion engine that one could make by scrounging up some double-acting hydraulic or air cylinders and with the right sizing of a couple of these tied together, get the necessary compressed air pressure and turn a crank too. Watt the Hell? :-) Regards, Fred Sparber From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 18:57:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA16330; Wed, 14 May 1997 18:26:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:26:35 -0700 Date: 14 May 97 21:24:11 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Kasparov versus Deep Blue Message-ID: <970515012410_72240.1256_EHB64-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"sn2zY1.0.--3.APcUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I wrote that the difference between intelligence levels in animals is surely a matter of degree, not kind, because the hardware manifesting the intelligence is the same in all cases. Barry Merriman writes: The idea that complex phenomena result from a series of gradual increments in complexity is soundly refuted by our present understanding of complexity. Thus, "thinking capacity" may increase incrementally as you suggest but it is equally conceivable that it takes quantum leaps as a "brain" becomes more complex. There may indeed be quantum leaps; I never said the effect of increased neurons is linear, or that all neuron brains work exactly the same way, from worms to humans. However, the basic building blocks (neurons and synapses) are the same, so the fundamental operations must be the same. There are no other organs involved in thinking. Creatures respire and digest differently, but they all think with the same gray stuff. We really don't know enough now to say one way or the other. We do too! Anyone can observe that animals display a progressive range of thinking ability, memory capacity, intelligence, and emotion. A flatworm is nowhere near as smart as an ant. Birds and mice are way ahead of flatworms. Labrador retrievers are so smart and they have such prodigious memories they can act as seeing-eye dogs and recognize people they have not met (that is, smelled) in years. There is no doubt that intelligence increases in subtle gradations. There may be sudden discontinuities for things like emotions and self-awareness, but frankly, I doubt it. I don't see any evidence for it. As for emotions, I do not see how anyone could deny that dogs, chimpanzees and other primates have them. I have no idea how such metaphonomena of intelligence arise, or whether machines can ever have them, but whatever else they are I am sure emotions must have some physical manifestation in brain cells. Where else can they be stored? How else can they affect heart rates, blood pressure, sexual response and all the rest of it? As for whether something "thinks" or not: this is a matter of semantics and is not very interesting. Arthur Clarke, Prof. McDermott, and I think it is very interesting indeed. It is not the sort of question that has a definite, scientifically definable answer today, but it is a vital part of science, particularly biology and computer science. As for me, I go with the Turing test: If I cannot distinguish its behavior from that of thinking creature, I am forced to conclude it must be thinking. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 18:59:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA22624; Wed, 14 May 1997 18:56:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:56:31 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:56:26 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device In-Reply-To: <337A36BD.79AC microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"7NmPK1.0.QX5.ErcUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg, does your rotary device have a perfectly circular path inside, or is the active member moving up and down against gravity? Is it a self-contained rotor-stator affair, or is attraction to the earth a necessary part of the device? The ramp devices and the Finstrud device both require gravity for operation. If your rotary version also usues gravity, then perhaps the effect depends on gravity and cannot occur without up/down motion. I ask because I slapped together a needle-bearing disk device as a test bed. 0.3" steel balls on the edge. Low friction, if I give the disk a tiny bump, it takes 5-10 seconds to make a revolution. Think of any ball/track setup which can move that slow without stalling! If there is the tiniest bit of excess KE evolved through one rotation, it should be pretty obvious. Crude futzing with ceramic magnets didn't produce any acceleration. Another hint/question. If steel is used as the moving part or as pole pieces, then field changes will induce currents and sap KE from the system. This would have greater effect the faster the rotor moved, and so the rotor would have a top speed determined by inductive braking. If all parts were ferrite instead, then the inductive losses would vanish, and the top speed would instead be set by air motion or bearing friction. Change the iron to ferrite, and the rotor might really zoom! (of course maybe the effect DEPENDS on ferromagnetic effects in iron, and if iron is replaced, the effect would vanish. Maybe use laminated iron shapes?) And for higher torque, there is always the "variable capacitor" route: build a very very thin o/u rotor-motor, then stack a bunch of copies all on the same shaft. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 19:48:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA31056; Wed, 14 May 1997 19:32:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:32:48 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970513223022.006adb14 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:30:22 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Electrolytic Mills Replications? Resent-Message-ID: <"8B9-F2.0.6b7.FNdUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Interesting discussion. About the NASA paper by Dr. Niedra et alia specifically, IMHO, having spoke to the author of the paper, and having specifically discussed the values obtained both with, and without, the thermoneutral potential, those experiments gave low-level excess heat, under both derivations according to the author. This is impt for the following reasons. About this matter generally, 1. Recombination is not an issue if the electrical input is taken as V*I. 2. Recombination occurs, and we measure it now in some of our equipment. There are also indirect methods. One method is to take that corrected semiquantitative excess heats (that rules out vertical calorimetry in most systems) both with and without the thermoneutral potentials. 3. When recombination occurs, the heat (which is not excess) occurs at the anode (if it is platinum), or on the recombiner. 4. At the pi-notch, the excess heat comes from the cathode. 5. Before the pi-notch, the heat, not excess, comes from both anode and cathode. 6. More details will be in the 32 Intersystem paper, and the ICCF-7 paper. 7. Despite the postings here in this thread, IMHO, there is no contamination in the recombined water despite the claim in the posting here. The recombined water is pH 7 (actually a function of temperature) and pure. Hope that helps and may clarify. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 20:00:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA29895; Wed, 14 May 1997 19:29:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:29:18 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970513222634.006bfcd8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:26:34 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Kasparov versus Deep Blue Resent-Message-ID: <"PjKDG3.0.uI7.wJdUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:24 PM 5/14/97 EDT, Jed wrote: > A flatworm is >nowhere near as smart as an ant. Birds and mice are way ahead of flatworms. > >- Jed A flatworm, platyhelminth, can be cut in half and then generate two new complete bodies with intact nervous systems. No ant, bird, or mouse can come close to even regenerating a limb to my knowledge. That's quite a system, and ought not be dismissed so quickly. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 20:04:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA15439; Wed, 14 May 1997 19:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:58:00 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970514225601_-2001694988 emout12.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolytic Mills Cell Replications? Resent-Message-ID: <"D6wKt3.0.8n3.mkdUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 97-05-13 13:17:43 EDT, you write: << On 1997 may 5 I wrote: ><< The BlackLight discussion substantially misrepresented the data ><< and conclusions contained in the NASA report. >> XXsnipXX Michael, Thanks for the reply. But I thought recombination was not an issue if the minus 1.48 I was not used in caculating input power. Regards, Vince From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 20:06:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA03785; Wed, 14 May 1997 19:58:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:58:07 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:57:20 PST8PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: H radiation? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <11FA79C5442 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"XnD2d1.0.xw.xkdUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK, I'm really starting to lose what feeble conception of this that I had to begin with. You say that despite the acceleration of the electron, no waves are generated. Hmmm... And this is due to interaction with the ZPE. I just don't see it. We can generate measurable waves outside of an atom by acceleration of electrons, but somehow ZPE messes it up when it happens in an atom. This totally throws me off. Could you explain this again? Please try to use small words. :-) Thanks, JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 20:14:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA30507; Wed, 14 May 1997 19:30:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:30:57 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970513222755.006a7ddc world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:27:55 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: H gas and film Resent-Message-ID: <"5f1981.0.HS7.SLdUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber, Scott Little, and John Logajan wrote: >> > >> >>Remember though that if it is H at a Pd interface, it might not all be >> >>H2, but still some H recombining to H2. >> > >> >The Pd sample is separated from the actual film emulsion by some small >> >distance so the atomic H would have to survive the short trip in the atomic >> >state. Does anyone have any idea what the half-life of atomic H is in air? >> >> H + H = H2 + energy >> H + O = OH + energy >> H + OH = H2O + energy >> OH + OH = H2O + O + energy >> OH + OH = H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) + energy >> H + H2O2 = H2O + OH + energy >> >> With all of these "free radical" reaction possibilities and the energy >> that they can release it wouldn't be surprising that there was some >> exposure of the film. > >And you have the nice catalytic Pd on hand to aid in any and all of >these reaction rates. > These are important issues and will return again. The experiments in question of autoradiography from from cf samples (Pd, loaded with D) had reasonable controls, and were not influenced by the above reactions, which can be written: spin preparation for electron transfer: O2 -> 1O2 singlet oxygen first electron: e- + O2 -> O2-. (superoxide free radical anion) second electron: 2H+ + e- + O2-. -> H2O2 third electron: e- -> OH. fourth electron: e- -> H2O yes, I've left out H and not balanced the final equations - and leave that as an exercise for anyone interested, but there are four electrons which go to molecular oxygen after it is spin corrected to form singlet oxygen. The HaberWeiss reactions etc. were also left out for simplicity. It is again suggested that those who question these papers actually obtain them. For example, the Miles paper includes very good controls. Jed has a good series of supplemental comments as well. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 20:14:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA31972; Wed, 14 May 1997 19:35:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:35:14 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970513223247.006a47a4 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:32:47 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: H radiation? Resent-Message-ID: <"a5GEA1.0.Rp7.WPdUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:47 PM 5/14/97 -0400, you wrote: > >In a message dated 5/14/97 8:29:42 PM, Jay Olsen wrote: > ><< Hey, I've got a simple physics question that I haven't been able >to figure out. Does a hydrogen atom emit EM waves when it's at >ground state? A single H atom can be viewed as a simple dipole, and >if that dipole is constantly switching polarities (which it is), it >ought to be sending out EM waves, even if they are very weak. If >this is true, where does the energy in the waves come from? Vacuum? >> > >Precisely. See my paper: H. Puthoff, "Ground state of hydrogen as a >zero-point-fluctuation-determined state," Phys. Rev. D, vol 35, pp. 3266-3269 >(1987). > >As I state in the Abstract: "We show here that, within the stochastic >electrodynamic formulation and at the level of the Bohr theory, the ground >state of the hydrogen atom can be precisely defined as resulting from a >dynamic equilibrium between radiation emitted due to acceleration of the >electron in its ground-state orbit and radiation absorbed from zero-point >fluctuations of the background vacuum electromagnetic field, thereby >resolving the issue of radiative collapse of the Bohr atom." > >I have a paper in process that generalizes this to all quantum ground states, >which are non-radiative despite accelerating ground-state orbits, because of >just this equilibrium process. > >Best regards, >Hal Puthoff > > The following is an attempt at a constructive criticism, and some mathematical response would be appreciated. How could this be? Does the background determine what each ground state atom has emitted and then exactly replenish the putative lost radiation? and at the correct rate and phase? How? and how can the background (Maxwell's demons?) take the time to determine what each atom requires? I do not believe it because the background is must be uniform (except perhaps near masses or energy) and therefore all points in the background must contribute equally. But there is the little matter of special relativity. What about causality? Is the putative ZPE then doled out so that each atom gets exactly the correct amount of energy to balance as Hal Puthoff suggests with what he refers to as a microscopic reversibility of the ground state? Seems unlike because there are only 10^79 atoms (or thereabouts) in the known universe. The putative ZPE already requires even more atoms in each cm^3 to generate the putative energies, and now there must be a central processor to dole out the background radiation to compensate for the (putative) losses of each ground state, with corrections for causality, phase, incident obstuctions (both scatterers and absorbers). Given the two scenarios, its seems more likely that ground states are simply that -- ground states. The uniqueness theorem suggests this will hold. It would be nice to see any equation, or argument, convincing me about this notion of floating quasi-stable ground states compensated by background irradiation, or even about ZPE being real beyond inconsequential quantities. In the meantime, remain open and interested. Best wishes on working this out. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 20:24:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA05087; Wed, 14 May 1997 20:01:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:01:06 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:57:23 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: TED - First experimental results negative Resent-Message-ID: <"Dx4oC.0.2F1.indUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Horace, > >Did you take account the collisions of electrons with the structure or >with each others (mean free path) when you builded the TEDD theory? >This may destroy the effect because this not similar to hall effect. >May a computer simulation is usefull to simulate break-up the cycloid >curves by collisions. > >Regards, > >hamdix I didn't expect positive results in the magnitude I am presently capable of measuring. People would have noticed an effect of that magnitude long ago. Also, solar cells are designed to pick up roughly 1.1 eV photons (ionizaton voltage for Si), and I am looking for a ratchet effect down at under 0.023 eV. Maybe it would be better to say that results were inconclusive. The calculations I provided were "idea" only to demonstrate a maximum. It would only be only applicable in a superconducting environment because E = 0 and R = 0. I considered writing a simulation, but I don't know the electron interaction cross sections and capture cross sections with the dopants and the impurities. Don't have an estimate of mean free path in an empty lattice either. I also don't have any material to test where all these values are known so comparison to predicted values can be made and so that a true negative result can be determnined. At this point I'm just looking for materials to test. Next step is to use a very sensitive current detector. A femtoamp is as good as an amp when it comes to proving the case and deciding to press on or not. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 21:11:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA25960; Wed, 14 May 1997 21:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <337A8B10.FA1 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:33:28 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Greg & Shirley Watson References: <199705142255.SAA26850 spectre.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eW4fo.0.YL6.5keUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > Greg Watson said: > > > Thanks for all the supportive posts, but I really don't think my device > > is all that great. I have been in business too long not to understand > > that there is a very long and rocky road until I or others can offer a > > 10kw home unit for sale. > > Call the toy companies, especially the upscale ones like > F.A.O. Schwartz. The million or so you make there should finance a > bit of research... Have started to investigate that path. Seems toy OU devices are more acceptable than mega watt unit. Have been offered lecture circuits as well. I can talk......... > Also if your apparatus is very repeatable, sell clocks. ;-) No chance! > Robert I. Eachus -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 22:01:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA05899; Wed, 14 May 1997 21:30:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:30:27 -0700 Message-ID: <337A9101.7567 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:58:49 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device References: <337AB96C.48A3 netcomuk.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"padyn2.0.zR1.W5fUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rob King wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > Con-grats on getting the looped closed on your device. > Like a lot of people I have been watching your posts with baited breath, > waiting for the point at which you succeed and you have, well done! > > As soon as I saw your post I went downstairs to the kitchen, fetched out > all my magnets, 2 alu carpet gripper rods, a mouse ball and had a play. > > I set up the magnets in an arrow shape under the track with like poles > acting towards the centre of the rod. In my magnetic ramps, the poles are unlike ie NS Ball NS with varing magnetic strength to the top. Your setup is interesting and I will give it a try. Repelling poles cause sometimes strange effects. > \\\ > \\\\\\\\ > =========================0======= > //////// > /// > > It seemed to go further along the track when there were magnets there, > but I cannot be absolutely sure, because I may tend to push the ball > quicker with the magnets in place because I want it to work. Would suggest you bend up a bit of the track at the start (not too much) and always release the ball at the top of the ramp. This will reduce variations in release energy and allow you to try different magnet configs. > I would love some pointers to get me off in the right direction with > trying to reproduce this, anything you can give me? Experiment, but try to develope testing systems which reduce human variations. > I cannot help thinking that the answer to it working has something to do > with the ball rolling though the field. In other words it would fail to > work if the ball was attached to an arm that passed it though the device. > > Maybe the Searl device works on a similar principle. > > Look forward to hearing from you :) > > Rob King Hi Rob, My rotary device doesn't use a ramp (well as least not a angled ramp). Keep building, it can happen! -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 22:02:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA13928; Wed, 14 May 1997 21:58:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:58:38 -0700 Message-ID: <337A9998.5883 gorge.net> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:05:29 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minto Wheel References: <199705150057.RAA29773 mx2.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qOYTG1.0.YP3.zVfUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think the answer is to utilize the more or less linear velocity of the circumference of the wheel, rather than the rotational velocity of 1 RPM. That is, a belt or chain drive, using the main wheel as the driving wheel, and a very small wheel as the driven wheel, on the generator(s). Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 22:15:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA09809; Wed, 14 May 1997 21:42:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:42:35 -0700 Message-ID: <337A93F0.4892 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:11:20 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"o0LaM1.0.BP2.xGfUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > Greg, does your rotary device have a perfectly circular path inside, or is > the active member moving up and down against gravity? Yes. > Is it a > self-contained rotor-stator affair, or is attraction to the earth a > necessary part of the device? Yes, No. > The ramp devices and the Finstrud device > both require gravity for operation. If your rotary version also usues > gravity, then perhaps the effect depends on gravity and cannot occur > without up/down motion. At present that is true, however I am currently building a new device which doesn't use gravity. There are many other linear restortative forces available. > I ask because I slapped together a needle-bearing disk device as a test > bed. 0.3" steel balls on the edge. Low friction, if I give the disk a > tiny bump, it takes 5-10 seconds to make a revolution. Think of any > ball/track setup which can move that slow without stalling! If there is > the tiniest bit of excess KE evolved through one rotation, it should be > pretty obvious. Crude futzing with ceramic magnets didn't produce any > acceleration. I suspect wheel mounted balls will not work. The ramp works, I believe because the field contours up the ramp and on exit are different. Maaybe the ferromagnetic effects vary with ball size and field contour. Don't know, but as a clue, a bigger ball works much better than a smaller ball. Supsect its because the magnets move up their B/H curve as the reluctance in the ramp is reduced, but the exit seems to be easier with a larger ball. Others have confirmed this. > Another hint/question. If steel is used as the moving part or as pole > pieces, then field changes will induce currents and sap KE from the > system. This would have greater effect the faster the rotor moved, and so > the rotor would have a top speed determined by inductive braking. If all > parts were ferrite instead, then the inductive losses would vanish, and > the top speed would instead be set by air motion or bearing friction. > Change the iron to ferrite, and the rotor might really zoom! (of course > maybe the effect DEPENDS on ferromagnetic effects in iron, and if iron is > replaced, the effect would vanish. Maybe use laminated iron shapes?) Would love to try the device with ferrite balls. Anyone have or know of a source of 12mm ferrite balls? I would need about 20 balls. > And for higher torque, there is always the "variable capacitor" route: > build a very very thin o/u rotor-motor, then stack a bunch of copies all > on the same shaft. Hi Bill, Have trought of that .......... YUCK ......... We are both engineers and BUILDERS and know that is the very LAST resort. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 14 22:22:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA13202; Wed, 14 May 1997 21:54:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:54:24 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Kasparov versus Deep Blue To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:54:17 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <970514204327_72240.1256_EHB48-1 CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at May 14, 97 04:43:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QVnwz.0.CE3._RfUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > Computers think at least as well as ants, > bees, or migrating birds do. It is purely mechanical "hard wired" thinking, > but so is the instinctive behavior that drives ants. Computers may think, but do they have volition? No one knows how to program volition into a computer. So computers will continue to do quite well at the analytical side of thinking but there is no sign yet that anyone has figured out how to give them conciousness. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 01:08:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA25137; Thu, 15 May 1997 00:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: 15 May 97 03:54:11 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Subject: Re: Kasparov versus Deep Blue Message-ID: <970515075411_100060.173_JHB100-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"HDvwL.0.d86.57iUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed sed, >> As for me, I go with the Turing test: If I cannot distinguish its behavior from that of thinking creature, I am forced to conclude it must be thinking. << Basically that's right I feel - but taking the Deep Blue case it seems to me that what beat Kas. is the dead-pan feel of the DB response to every move - no emotion at all. The human response must incorporate the impact of all past experience and personal bias. Until the programmers of DB (and I don't mean Dick Blue ) are able to soft-wire some emotive reactions into the "thought processes" of the program, then any opponents will feel that they are unable to use their whole armoury against it, including bluff and such-like ploys. That is what frustrated Kas. IMO. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 01:26:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA28181; Thu, 15 May 1997 01:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:25:04 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H radiation? Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:24:11 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <337aa0ba.26450135 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <2.2.32.19970513223247.006a47a4 world.std.com> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970513223247.006a47a4 world.std.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HmYSR2.0.Fu6.TXiUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 13 May 1997 22:32:47 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: [snip] > How could this be? > > Does the background determine what each ground state atom has emitted and >then exactly replenish the putative lost radiation? and at the correct >rate and phase? This is precisely the problem that I originally had with this theory (hypothesis?). However it can be neatly resolved in this case, by replacing travelling wave EM with standing waves. Given that a standing wave can be written as two opposing identical travelling waves, there is always precisely one photon arriving for each one leaving. This takes care of the "cosmic computer" requirement. It also provides a very neat dividing line between the energy that we *directly* observe (travelling waves or standard EM), and that which we only *indirectly* observe (standing waves or ZPE), through its interaction with charge to form what we recognise as mass. It then also seems logical to me that the travelling wave EM that we normally observe is in fact no more than a modulation of the underlying standing wave ZPE. Just as a radio carrier frequency is modulated by the signal it carries. [snip] Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 01:26:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA28238; Thu, 15 May 1997 01:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:25:27 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Greg & Shirley Watson Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:24:24 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <337db3d1.31338400 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <199705142255.SAA26850 spectre.mitre.org> In-Reply-To: <199705142255.SAA26850 spectre.mitre.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"j3iJO2.0.8v6.qXiUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 14 May 1997 18:55:25 -0400 (EDT), Robert I. Eachus wrote: [snip] > > Also if your apparatus is very repeatable, sell clocks. ;-) [snip] Yes, transparent ones! Then they can double as executive toys :) Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 04:11:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA22918; Thu, 15 May 1997 03:42:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 03:42:53 -0700 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:42:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Kasparov, P.S. call for papers online In-Reply-To: <970514204327_72240.1256_EHB48-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Ejers1.0.0c5.iYkUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts! Try Roger Penrose. The brain has a computational part but most importantly its intuitive part which is non-computational. Penrose describes how anyone can grasp the concept of an inductive proof - they can `see` the pattern - see to infinity. A computer cannot comprehend the infinity of the set of numbers say. This ability to see beyond the problem is our advantage. You know it! - when an idea flashes into your head - retrace the steps and you probably don't know how you did it. It all makes logical sense after though - you can build a logical path to it. The belief amongst the A.I. skeptics is that the more logic gates paradigm is flawed. Also it's not merely a case of generating random seed solutions and selecting the best ones as put forward in the `blackboard model`. There`s something weirder and more wonderful going on about the way we think (thank God I'm not a computer!). Witness pre-cognition, deja vu etc. etc. Don't build yourself a straight jacket of logic. You need legs to walk, but you have to have a map. Remi. P.S. The really boring thing about science is your own work - if you`ve been at it long. Delighted to hear of the progress people are making. How about some good web servers with good quality papers and citations to bring others up to speed? I`ll try at my end to get all my stuff (and the patent) on-line. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 05:04:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA13973; Thu, 15 May 1997 04:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 04:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970514074956.006d465c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:49:56 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: H radiation? Resent-Message-ID: <"fxzuu3.0.EQ3.PalUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, but it does not take care of 1) every point of the background should equally respond or 2) the special relativity issue. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) At 08:24 AM 5/15/97 GMT, Robin wrote: > >This is precisely the problem that I originally had with this theory >(hypothesis?). However it can be neatly resolved in this case, by >replacing travelling wave EM with standing waves. Given that a >standing wave can be written as two opposing identical travelling >waves, there is always precisely one photon arriving for each one >leaving. This takes care of the "cosmic computer" requirement. >It also provides a very neat dividing line between the energy that we >*directly* observe (travelling waves or standard EM), and that which >we only *indirectly* observe (standing waves or ZPE), through its >interaction with charge to form what we recognise as mass. >It then also seems logical to me that the travelling wave EM that we >normally observe is in fact no more than a modulation of the >underlying standing wave ZPE. Just as a radio carrier frequency is >modulated by the signal it carries. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 05:04:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA27361; Thu, 15 May 1997 04:37:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 04:37:56 -0700 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:37:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: call for papers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"PyjwI.0.Nh6.JMlUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vorts, Email can be a bit speedy and many ideas and results are posted and not fully worked out - also formulae are hard to read in ASCII. I have trouble keeping up with it. Is it possible to initiate a chain email or a member set up a ftp site where you can list:- Who you are, contact details, Research interests. List of papers and what group they fall into: o/u or u/e (or p.m.) On-line address and/or journal. Good citation index please in papers Advice on which papers to read first to get up to speed. Something like this peroidically maintained might help to enlighten some members, reduce traffic. Its a kind of electronic `who's who in o/u`. Remi. ........................................................................ Question. Just what do you do with a 180 seat majority? The lunatics will take over the asylum... (-: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 05:18:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA29689; Thu, 15 May 1997 04:52:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 04:52:00 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970514074918.006c57c4 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:49:18 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Electrolytic Mills Cell Replications? Resent-Message-ID: <"MVFIY3.0.pF7.VZlUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:56 PM 5/14/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-13 13:17:43 EDT, you write: > ><< On 1997 may 5 I wrote: > ><< The BlackLight discussion substantially misrepresented the data > ><< and conclusions contained in the NASA report. > >> >XXsnipXX > >Michael, > >Thanks for the reply. But I thought recombination was not an issue if the >minus 1.48 I was not used in caculating input power. > >Regards, >Vince > > Vince was correct. It is not an issue, if the thermoneutral potential is not used. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 05:19:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA17143; Thu, 15 May 1997 05:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 05:17:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: H radiation? Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:16:33 +0000 Message-ID: <19970515121631.AAA27708 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"5Xqsy1.0.nB4.hxlUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:24 AM 5/15/97 +0000, Robin wrote: > >This is precisely the problem that I originally had with this theory >(hypothesis?). However it can be neatly resolved in this case, by >replacing travelling wave EM with standing waves. Given that a >standing wave can be written as two opposing identical travelling >waves, there is always precisely one photon arriving for each one >leaving. This takes care of the "cosmic computer" requirement. >It also provides a very neat dividing line between the energy that we >*directly* observe (travelling waves or standard EM), and that which >we only *indirectly* observe (standing waves or ZPE), through its >interaction with charge to form what we recognise as mass. >It then also seems logical to me that the travelling wave EM that we >normally observe is in fact no more than a modulation of the >underlying standing wave ZPE. Just as a radio carrier frequency is >modulated by the signal it carries. > Try this on for size, Robin. :-) The vacuum only needs two "physical" properties; Capacitance C and Potential V. Then, Energy W = .5 CV^2, Charge Q = CV = CV/4(pi)^2. The inductance L is a manifestion of dC/dt (the displacement current). Empty space (the vacuum) like an empty bucket, should have infinite capacitance and a corresponding amount of potential. :-) Disturb this balance, and you create a "universe". :-) You might be speaking of standing waves when you really mean stationary waves, which make up the "material" universe, with the boundary conditions established by Snell"s Law of total internal reflection; sin theta critical = (e1/eo)^1/2 where eo is the intrinsic capacitance of the vacuum and e1 is the capacitance of the energy manifestation. :-) The frequencies for the normal modes of an "enclosure" are: Fn = (c"/2)*[(Nx/Lx)^2 + (Ny/Ly)^2 + (Nz/Lz)^2]^1/2 where Nx, Ny, Nz are integers from zero to infinity. Lx, Ly, Lz are the linear dimensions of the "enclosure", c" is the velocity of propagation IN THE ENCLOSURE {particle)and is LESS THAN THE VELOCITY OF LIGHT IN VACUUM, ie., c/137. Bust that one, Hal! :-) Regards, Frederick >Robin van Spaandonk >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on >temperature. >"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." >PS - no SPAM thanks! >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 07:29:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA01648; Thu, 15 May 1997 07:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:15:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705150908.ZM21471 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:08:25 -0500 In-Reply-To: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) "Re: Minto Wheel" (May 14, 11:53pm) References: <199705150057.RAA29773 mx2.eskimo.com> <337A9998.5883@gorge.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minto Wheel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"T4uvM2.0.gP.mfnUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On May 14, 11:53pm, Tom Miller wrote: > I think the answer is to utilize the more or less > linear velocity of the circumference of the wheel, > rather than the rotational velocity of 1 RPM. > > That is, a belt or chain drive, using the main wheel > as the driving wheel, and a very small wheel as the > driven wheel, on the generator(s). Huh? I don't understand what you are getting at. Linear velocity of the circumference is a function of rotational velocity. This drive to driven setup needs a 1:3600 ratio no matter how big or small you make the wheels, or how many multiples of wheels you use. Using your above example to illustrate magnitude, lets just say you could put a 1" diameter wheel on the generator, you would have to put a 3600 inch / 300 foot /100 yard diameter driver wheel on the MW. -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 08:00:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA26330; Thu, 15 May 1997 07:56:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:56:33 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:58:45 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolytic Mills Cell Replications? Resent-Message-ID: <"0msYA.0.KR6.WGoUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince Cockeram wrote: > >Michael, > >Thanks for the reply. But I thought recombination was not an issue if the >minus 1.48 I was not used in caculating input power. True, it's not an issue if the (-1.48 I) is not used. However, Mills DOES use it in his papers. In the NASA paper, they call it "APPARENT excess power" when they use the (-1.48 I) but have not checked whether this use is valid. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 08:12:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA28585; Thu, 15 May 1997 08:09:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:09:01 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Minto Wheel Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:08:16 +0000 Message-ID: <19970515150815.AAA29179 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"PE-2P3.0.V-6.CSoUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:08 PM 5/15/97 +0000, John Steck wrote: >On May 14, 11:53pm, Tom Miller wrote: > >> I think the answer is to utilize the more or less >> linear velocity of the circumference of the wheel, >> rather than the rotational velocity of 1 RPM. >> >> That is, a belt or chain drive, using the main wheel >> as the driving wheel, and a very small wheel as the >> driven wheel, on the generator(s). > >Huh? I don't understand what you are getting at. Linear velocity of the >circumference is a function of rotational velocity. This drive to driven setup >needs a 1:3600 ratio no matter how big or small you make the wheels, or how >many multiples of wheels you use. Using your above example to illustrate >magnitude, lets just say you could put a 1" diameter wheel on the generator, >you would have to put a 3600 inch / 300 foot /100 yard diameter driver wheel on >the MW. No problem there, John. Make it out of Iron and you will have a Ferrous Wheel. :-) Regards, Frederick > >-- >John E. Steck >Motorola Inc. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 08:23:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA11414; Thu, 15 May 1997 08:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:19:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705151012.ZM21856 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:12:33 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" "Re: Minto Wheel" (May 15, 10:03am) References: <19970515150815.AAA29179 LOCALNAME> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minto Wheel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"L1JeD3.0.Go2.rboUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On May 15, 10:03am, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > No problem there, John. Make it out of Iron and you will have > a Ferrous Wheel. :-) Ouch! Revolutionary as always! ha ha ha! -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 09:05:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA16111; Thu, 15 May 1997 08:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705151552.IAA19881 denmark.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: gwatson microtronics.com.au From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Greg & Shirley Watson Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Uh2oz2.0.ex3.d5pUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: >Robert I. Eachus wrote: >> >> Greg Watson said: >> >> > Thanks for all the supportive posts, but I really don't think my device >> > is all that great. I have been in business too long not to understand >> > that there is a very long and rocky road until I or others can offer a >> > 10kw home unit for sale. If you want some other opinions, on how great your discovery is, call up Popular Science magazine and have them do a feature article in their magazine. Or if you want immediate results, do a demonstration with your local university physics department chairman with the local press present. Once this gets out on the UPI/API newswire you will probably be famous overnight. As far as I know your discovery is the first of its kind since the Orffyreus' Wheel of the 1700's. How long do you think it will take to design a working 10kw home prototype unit? What do you think are the requirements for this to occur? Do you think that with the help of the millions of engineers worldwide this could happen sooner? >> Call the toy companies, especially the upscale ones like >> F.A.O. Schwartz. The million or so you make there should finance a >> bit of research... > >Have started to investigate that path. Seems toy OU devices are more >acceptable than mega watt unit. Have been offered lecture circuits as >well. I can talk......... Yes it is easier, since you have a working model of a small OU device that can be sold in the toy market than a mega watt unit that can't be demonstrated for the electric utility market. It seems to be human nature, or if your from Missouri "the show-me-state", seeing is more believable than theories. >> Also if your apparatus is very repeatable, sell clocks. ;-) > >No chance! > >> Robert I. Eachus >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax Congradulations again for the good work! Best Regards, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 09:22:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA19848; Thu, 15 May 1997 09:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:13:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970515121117_-564577505 emout12.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H radiation? Resent-Message-ID: <"sbqzE3.0.0s4.lOpUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In response to Mitchell Swartz's comments: Mitchell, With regard to the math details you are interested in, I will send you the papers and you can check it out. I can answer the questions here in general, though. First, it doesn't take Maxwell demons or careful computation and dole-outs in this model. Rather, it is more like what occurs in thermal equilibrium processes in which input = output, and temperature is maintained (this is an analogy; the ZPE doesn't involve temperature). Specifically, for the H atom ground state, for example, at the level of Bohr orbit approximation, one assumes that there is a circular orbit. Depending on the size and frequency, one calculates, classically, what the radiation would be due to the acceleration. Then, for the background ZPE, cubic in freq, with a density rho = h-bar x w^3/2 pi^2 x c^3 (w the radian freq), and assuming random phases of the freq components, one asks for which circular orbit would there be an absorption from the background ZPF that would just compensate for the expected radiation. Solving it, it just turns out that the equilibrium absorption/emission orbit is the known Bohr ground state orbit. And it is stable: if the orbit shrinks or grows due to some random perturbation, the emission/absorption balance is perturbed in such a direction as to re-establish the known ground-state Bohr orbit. There does not need to be "calculation" on the part of the ZPE background, either with regard to intensities or phases; the phases are random, the intensity is that established by the background (about which more is said below), and the process is simply one of equilibrium. This is similar, as I said above, to other equilibrium processes, e.g., temperature equilibrium of a hot stone sitting in the sunlight, where, similarly, the sun's photons nor the stone do not need Maxwell demons or calculation power to establish equilibrium. In fact, the ZPE model is can be thought of in terms of a solar flux model, except that the ZPE comes from all the matter in the universe, not just our sun, via the radiation/absorption exchange process described above, and covers a much broader spectrum (zero to Planck freq, ~ 10^44 Hz). Presented, as I said in an earlier post, in H. Puthoff, "Ground state of hydrogen as a zero-point-fluctuation-determined state," Phys Rev D, vol. 35, 3266, 1987. See also a nice commentary in New Scientist, 9 July 1987, p. 26 "Why atoms don't collapse." (BTW, my model for possible ZPE energy extraction in "cold fusion" experiments is related to my H model described above; place H isotope in Pd lattice - where the ZPE distribution is different - and the ZPE radiation/absorption equilibrium balance is upset, and establishment of a new equilibrium releases energy, much like Hrace Heffner describes; but that's a whole other story.) Now as to how the 10^79 or whatever atoms in the universe generate the ZPE, refer to my paper H. Puthoff, "Source of vacuum electromagnetic zero-point energy," Phys Rev A, vol 40, 4857, 1989; errata, vol. 44, 3385, 1991. Also a clear commentary about it in New Scientist, p. 36, 2 Dec 1989, "Where does the zero-point energy come from?" The basic idea is that all charged particles in the universe have a quantum jiggle, are therefore accelerating, and therefore radiate. Then all other particles are caught in the radiation fields, and are caused to jiggle. What we have is the EM equivalent of the microphone held up to the speaker and generting a squeal. The cosmic feedback cycle, solved for an Einstein-de Sitter cosmology, yields the known intensity and freq distribution for the ZPE. BTW, given that the concept of a ubiquitous, isotropic, high-energy-density ZPE seems far-fetched (despite that it is standard quantum theory!), I recommend a very readable account by Boyer in Aug 1985 Scientific American, called "The Classical Vacuum." Best regards, Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 09:37:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA21571; Thu, 15 May 1997 09:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: 15 May 97 12:22:35 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Kasparov versus Deep Blue Message-ID: <970515162235_72240.1256_EHB107-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"hXe8L2.0.rG5.CapUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex John Logajan writes: Computers may think, but do they have volition? Nope. Not a drop, as far as I know. No one knows how to program volition into a computer. I think it would be more accurate to say that nobody even tried to program volition yet. We have no idea whether it can be done or not, or whether it would be easy or hard. So computers will continue to do quite well at the analytical side of thinking but there is no sign yet that anyone has figured out how to give them consciousness. Quite right. But that is another thing that nobody has even tried to do yet. Computers do only one narrow type of thinking, and only about a limited range of subjects. Their pattern recognition abilities are poor, they have no volition, no intuition, very limited associative memory capacity, and no consciousness. They are not alive in any sense. But they still think! By that I mean they come up with unique, unprogrammed solution sets to problems. The programmers did not preprogram the answer to every possible chess problem. They programmed a generalized set of rules. The computer synthesizes unique solution sets that are far better than the programmers themselves could have come up with. They are even better than Kasparov's best solutions, which are the best that any human can achieve. (Another grand master who has played Deep Blue says it is no longer a contest; the machine always beats him.) A chess game solution set is an "idea." If it isn't, what is? And what else could it be? People say a computer solution set is only a pattern of bits, but by the same token, what is a human idea other than a manifestation of chemical or electrical states in brain cells? Ideas do not float around in space. They can only exist as a state of matter in brain cells. As McDermott put it: "Presumably your brain works because each of its billions of neurons carries out hundreds of tiny operations each second, none of which in isolation demonstrates any intelligence at all." The computer's performance is roughly comparable to an ant's. Ants probably have no consciousness, and I doubt they have much volition, either. Yet they do think. Their brains process sensory information and come up with solution sets to problems. The solution sets are not pre-existing. There are no hard- wired instructions that tell the ant exactly how to drag a particular crumb around a particular pebble. The ant has generalized abilities to solve a broad range of problems, including abstract problems. For example, it has some sort of mental map of the geography around its nest, and the ability to navigate over ground it has never seen. It does not always follow pheromone tracks (the Hansel and Gretel technique). When an ant returning to the nest encounters a newly fallen branch blocking the way, it finds a way around the obstruction, it crosses ground it has never crossed, and finds its way back. The ant applies general techniques to the situation it finds itself in. It comes up with unique solutions sets to specific problems that no other ant has ever confronted in all history. To that limited extent, by that narrow definition, the ant does creative thinking, and so do computers. Well, this is a fascinating subject, and one that I have been reading about for many years, but it is not relevant to over-unity energy, so I will drop it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 09:47:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA24030; Thu, 15 May 1997 09:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:41:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:39:11 PST8PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: H radiation? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <12D5AD742B0 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"RJs7Y.0.Ot5.gopUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for that last post, Hal. If in fact these atoms do radiate, why do large volumes of solid matter not "blow off" their surrounding edge? Is it because the rest of the matter in the universe creates an opposite amount of radiation falling back on the solid object? Finally, what if our solid object was the only object in the universe? Would it then blow its shell off? Thanks, JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 10:21:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA28341; Thu, 15 May 1997 10:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:10:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: papers please! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"PpL9X.0.jw6.MEqUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Ah come on! We're not telepathic. Someone was asking for a summary of all the research about a month ago and was told to go away and do his homework. If nobody will do it, I will. I'll set up an ftp/web server where you can drop who you are, group (ou or pm) and your relevant good publications. All it has to be is a text file with anonymous permissions that anyone can edit - provided there are no anti-social types. Or can I make an appeal to the editors of IE to give a who's who page with said details and maybe print this every 3 months or so. It would be nice to see what the current theories and data is to let people not A) duplicate work, B) pull together threads, C) to know what's hot and who's talking sense. The e-post system is anarchic. Trying to follow peoples threads with interweaved messages, out of sequence messages is difficult. Just give us a point of reference, hunt the citation, person or group is bloody time wasting. One of the functions of a research supervisor is to guide students to sources of information or further study. Sifting the static, Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 10:36:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA00327; Thu, 15 May 1997 10:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:22:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:21:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970515132058_811770143 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H radiation? Resent-Message-ID: <"9UjhL1.0.05.KPqUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 5/15/97 6:30:29 AM, Jay Olsen wrote: <> Not quite it. Waves ARE generated, and radiated off, just like your intuition would say. It's just that waves are also being absorbed from the surrounding ZPE at an equal rate. Therefore, no NET radiation (in the ground state). Think of a stone sitting in the hot sun that has reached thermal equilibrium. It is absorbing the sun's heat energy and radiating off its own heat energy, resulting in an equilibrium. Similarly, the hydrogen atom is sitting in the ZPE, its absorption and emission having reached an equilibrium. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 10:37:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA24767; Thu, 15 May 1997 10:32:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:32:24 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:31:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970515133147_-1164473947 emout14.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H radiation? Resent-Message-ID: <"lxNx01.0.v26.dYqUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 5/15/97 2:32:53 PM, Mitchell Swartz commented (with regard to ZPE modelling) on: <> The ZPE is Lorentz-invariant. Uniform movement thru the ZPE, unlike thru all other random radiation fields, is not detectable. This is true only for a distribution that goes as frequency-cubed, which the ZPE does. As one component is Doppler shifted (toward the blue in front, toward the red behind) another shifts to just take its place, leaving no detectable difference. Also, the drag force (Einstein-Hopf force) usually associated with moving through a random radiation field does not occur for the ZPE case because the drag force is proportional to [p-(w/3)(dp/dw)], and this is zero for a freq-cubed distribution. (p is spectral energy density in joules/m^3-freq interval, and w is radian frequency, w = 2 x pi x f). Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 10:44:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA26957; Thu, 15 May 1997 10:42:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:42:33 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970515174222.0067bcb4 atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:42:22 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Re: Kasparov versus Deep Blue Resent-Message-ID: <"KTlZC.0.3b6.8iqUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >People say a computer solution set is only a pattern of bits, but by the >same token, what is a human idea other than a manifestation of chemical >or electrical states in brain cells? Ideas do not float around in space. >They can only exist as a state of matter in brain cells. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ [1] [snip] >Well, this is a fascinating subject, and one that I have been reading >about for many years, but it is not relevant to over-unity energy, so I >will drop it. Jed, given your statement [1] above, which you express with such emphatic certainty, can you please enlighten me as to what the mechanisms are by which "a human idea" exists "as a state of matter in brain cells". If you don't know what these alleged mechanisms are, then will you please admit that your statement [1] is only your unsupported OPINION, and not a statement of fact as you make it seem. Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 10:45:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA26705; Thu, 15 May 1997 10:41:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:41:48 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC611C.A8400E00 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Turdo-Diesel, P.U. Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:42:15 -0700 Encoding: 13 TEXT, 38 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"nu5Jw3.0.BX6.RhqUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Fred Sparber wrote: >For the more adventurous, the 7,400 BTU/lb in the wet manure >if mixed at a pound or two of water to a pound of manure can >be heated in a steam jacketed pipe to say 150 psig or so and >allowed to exit through an orifice where it will flash to a mixture >of steam and manure. Sounds a little too familiar . Fred, I think you've got a Hot Farm Animal Refuse Technology. In future posts on this thread can we just refer to it as HF? Dan Quickert begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(A 1`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0! `(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! M. $````"`?8/`0````0````````",#,!!( !`!<```!213H@5'5R9&\M1&EE M M\WK_,,U $="W& " )+H6-P``'@`># $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0`` M`!<```!D97%U:6-K97)T0'5C9&%V:7,N961U```#``80AJ-370,`!Q!R`0`` M' `($ $```!E````1E)%1%-005)"15)74D]413I&3U)42$5-3U)%041614Y4 M55)/55,L5$A%-RPT,#!"5%4O3$))3E1(15=%5$U!3E5214E&34E8141!5$%0 M3U5.1$]25%=/3T97051%4E1/05!/50`````"`0D0`0```(H"``"&` ``# 4` M`$Q:1G5TW0X%_P`*`0\"%0*D`^0%ZP*#`% 3`U0"`&-H"L!S973N, 8`!L," M S(#Q@<3`H,R,Q,/9C0#Q0(`<')"<1(BFAE; ,@1&QG70* M?0J ",\)V3L9/S(\-34" J!#;$+8&YG>#$P,Q0@"PH2\@P!8[D`0"!&&4$& M``JQ8 20+"!W`V 6<#H*A2 ^7PM&%"(,`17P'Q%C!4!&-06Q=!? ( 1@&4 @ M831D= GP= AP"&!S+ $A@SL" 7P+\LT1Y0"X$O+RGO*O< M%F'086T :@#0:Q(`'D$.< 4@(; M(7-A>2!4,34C<' `D&4"TA97AI!4 AD"*1_&=H.*\SKRKH`Z %L :0_&EC)%$7 MP"'Q/#$#\!?A^1P10A@)R) (&,*P#6@07<#``# `R!2#< BL"&P M5,D%D&AN&,%G>4=O' #^+DR@`Z!04$'R*[$68 0@_P(@3,($(#QA,A >4"YQ M3C_O'?$D<$*?'?%J(K %0!E GF8L]#PQ03!-\$8_2/SR1 .1474_\#7P`"!( M_"]''R"I6M4880!=L ```P`0$ `````#`!$0`````$ `!S"0\8L\56&\`4 ` H"#"0\8L\56&\`1X`/0`!````!0```%)%.B ``````P`--/TW```1'6&\ ` end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 10:56:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA04511; Thu, 15 May 1997 10:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <337ADFD8.2F1C60A8 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:05:12 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex , Zehra Tumertekin Subject: Computer Thoughts (Re:Kasparov...) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nYYVJ2.0.P61.qoqUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From my view, thinking (human thinking) is no more than an extensions of the feedback (input/output) process. Living organism behaves using the same rules of machines. An electronic circuit controlling an industrial process or even work as voltage regulator have own reasoning. Recognizing is one level higher process. And last, thinking which process virtual data. The data that we captured into the memory with our senses (input devices) are reprocessed and the whole environment of the input and the output space is simulated in memory. That is human thinking. Start from an advanced pattern recognizing process: For example an streographic image of an object is used to create a solid 3D model. Than Fill the model with optical transparent material (like glass) having some refraction index. And replace the original object in the image with this glassy one. Really cool effect! Actually I seen some thing like this on a video clip. It can be said that the computer image recognizing process is no less than we do in the brain. It is not difficult a write a program which think using the same concepts that i stated above. But programmers tries to shortcut this logic for practical reasons and actually the program generated does not thinking really but simulate thinking. I don't know the nature of the program that played with Kasparov. But the success of the program lies directly on total simulation of the chess environment. The intelligence is directly function of the speed of calculations and size of the arrays. May a simple algorithm can defeat anyone if one offers enough time and memory. If any one interested I will write computer style volition on the next posting. Regards, Hamdix From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 11:07:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA05474; Thu, 15 May 1997 10:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <337B4E3B.63 skylink.net> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:56:11 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H radiation? References: <19970515121631.AAA27708 LOCALNAME> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DO_4c.0.QL1.bwqUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > The vacuum only needs two "physical" properties; Capacitance C and > Potential V. Then, Energy W = .5 CV^2, Charge Q = CV = CV/4(pi)^2. > The inductance L is a manifestion of dC/dt (the displacement current). Hmm. Frederick. It seems you are missing just about exactly half the total energy. Furthermore, one could argue equally well, and I think equally wrongly, that the capacitance C is a merely a manifestation of dL/dt (the displacement magnetic current). Maybe it is true that the vacuum can be described well with only two "physical" properties. But probably at least one of them must have something directly to do with magnetic effects. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 11:10:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA06806; Thu, 15 May 1997 11:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:06:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: RE: Turdo-Diesel, P.U. Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 18:04:32 +0000 Message-ID: <19970515180430.AAA8896 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"4VPI62.0.Dg1.52rUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:42 PM 5/15/97 +0000, Dan Quickert wrote: >Fred Sparber wrote: > >For the more adventurous, the 7,400 BTU/lb in the wet manure > >if mixed at a pound or two of water to a pound of manure can > >be heated in a steam jacketed pipe to say 150 psig or so and > >allowed to exit through an orifice where it will flash to a mixture > >of steam and manure. > > >Sounds a little too familiar . >Fred, I think you've got a Hot Farm Animal Refuse Technology. In future posts on this thread can we just refer to it as HF? > >Dan Quickert > ROFL, Dan! Why didn't I think of that? Especially before someone in the Department Of Energy uses it in a technical REPORT. :-) Gotta watch the body temperature of livestock with a very long rectal probe. :-) Thanks a Whole Lot, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 11:24:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA02548; Thu, 15 May 1997 11:20:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:20:29 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BC611C.A8400E00 ristra.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:19:26 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Turdo-Diesel, P.U. Resent-Message-ID: <"2idc11.0.gd.iFrUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: > begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT > [gobbledygook] > [gobbledygook] > [gobbledygook]... Is that some kind of encoded signature block? Would it be possible for you to convert it to a more universal or common MIME type? Anyone know of a MIME helper app that can convert them on a Macintosh? I'm using Eudora Light for list traffic these days, which is pretty plain vanilla. Haven't tried a "600 WINMAIL.DAT" with Netscape yet, which seems to have quite a few MIME type handlers associated with it. Thanks - - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 12:16:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA13097; Thu, 15 May 1997 11:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:47:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: H radiation? Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 18:45:59 +0000 Message-ID: <19970515184557.AAA26947 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"vK6Vp3.0.ZC3.terUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:56 PM 5/15/97 +0000, Robert Stirniman wrote: >Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >> The vacuum only needs two "physical" properties; Capacitance C and >> Potential V. Then, Energy W = .5 CV^2, Charge Q = CV = CV/4(pi)^2. >> The inductance L is a manifestion of dC/dt (the displacement current). > >Hmm. Frederick. It seems you are missing just about exactly half the >total energy. Furthermore, one could argue equally well, and I think >equally wrongly, that the capacitance C is a merely a manifestation of >dL/dt (the displacement magnetic current). Maybe it is true that the vacuum >can be described well with only two "physical" properties. But probably >at least one of them must have something directly to do with magnetic >effects. > >Regards, >Robert Stirniman > In modern physics: "Magnetism = Electricity + Relativity", Robert. When you change capacitance C or voltage (potential) V you create a "displacement current" i = dV/dt thus accounting for the other half of the energy. You can test this by putting a voltage on a pair of capacitor plates and rapidly changing the plate spacing. Or, if you prefer, make one of the plates a "propeller" on a high speed shaft and watch the EM waves generated. The flow of current down a wire where the "drift" velocity of the electrons is a fraction of a cm/second will also attest to the relativistic view of the nature of magnetism. Fun Huh? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 12:21:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA15743; Thu, 15 May 1997 12:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BC6127.CD5156D0 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Turdo-Diesel, P.U. Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:02:02 -0700 Encoding: 29 TEXT, 48 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"TCMmg3.0.qr3.wsrUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >Dan Quickert wrote: > > > begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT > > [gobbledygook] > > [gobbledygook] > > [gobbledygook]... > >Is that some kind of encoded signature block? Would it be possible for you >to convert it to a more universal or common MIME type? Oh, well, HF! Can't everyone else just use Microsoft products? This has come up (pardon the reference) several times. Thought I had it licked (yuck). What it is is Microsoft Mail encoding so that if I wanted, I could make this sentence green and if you had a Microsoft mail reader it would be green on your screen, too. Nifty, huh? Actually not very. But on everyone else's mail programs it comes out as a bunch of crud appended. I have tried to turn it off, apparently successfully for a while. It keeps creeping back. Maybe 25 years of working with computers, 15 with microcomputers isn't enough of a knowledge base to be able to handle the deep complexities of a Microsoft mail program. Frustrating as hell. Will soon be upgrading the mail client software, maybe that will fix it. Meanwhile, my deepest Apollo Gees. Dan begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^( ,3`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! M. $````"`?8/`0````0````````",#,!!( !`!<```!213H@5'5R9&\M1&EE M# $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0`` M`!<```!D97%U:6-K97)T0'5C9&%V:7,N961U```#``80L:6F!0,`!Q!A`P`` M' `($ $```!E````4DE#2TU/3E1%5D521$574D]413I$04Y154E#2T525%=2 M3U1%.D)%1TE.-C P5TE.34%)3$1!5$=/0D),14191T]/2T=/0D),14191T]/ M2T=/0D),14191T]/2TE35$A!5%-/30`````"`0D0`0```#X$```Z! ``> 8` M`$Q:1G6 FP,)_P`*`0\"%0*D`^0%ZP*#`% 3`U0"`&-H"L!S973N, 8`!L," M S(#Q@<3`H,B,P]Z:&5L`R!$;,IG`H,T$P]F-0/%`@`(<')Q$B)S=&5M70* M?0J ",\)V3L9.3&,,C 9_PH%,C4U`H '"H$-L0M@;F2= ;VM=)J];)[\HSBXK4"0N200@=%L1P 5 $Y /DS8&\N'DT'L :0-G Y M *AH=6@O0$$BP'4'0-!L>2!N(% @.K)!H-Q"=05 -?$ZJR<$($QC\R)Q"LTNO5#5!H$96 /\8`$$005!%\3ZQ%/)#H0,0_P,@+0`U\2_Q/S!4 M8473/^+]3&-C0M!)T2SQ`8!&\!E /SF `,!>`BRS`_ 5$69I[G OL5W!3,!N M6_-LP5&P=V62!Y %0$$P(!40,W!'_PG 09 @G"+Q,2]'R")V<94%&&$`=' ` M``,`$! ``````P`1$ ````! ```#T` :`0````4```!213H ``````,`#33]-P``'<%A ` end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 13:41:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA30087; Thu, 15 May 1997 13:35:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:35:18 -0700 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:35:11 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device In-Reply-To: <337A93F0.4892 microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Gmg5W3.0.1M7.5EtUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 15 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > William Beaty wrote: > > > > Greg, does your rotary device have a perfectly circular path inside, or is > > the active member moving up and down against gravity? > > Yes. Oops! 'Yes' it's a perfect circle, or 'yes' it's moving up and down? If it moves up and down, then the path is more like a cylindrical surface. (If it's a perfect circle, then the ball could easily be glued to the edge of a wheel.) > > The ramp devices and the Finstrud device > > both require gravity for operation. If your rotary version also usues > > gravity, then perhaps the effect depends on gravity and cannot occur > > without up/down motion. > > At present that is true, however I am currently building a new device > which doesn't use gravity. There are many other linear restortative > forces available. Have you seen o/u effects when no ramps were used? In other words, if you flatten out your magnet ramp device, does the excess speed seem to become less? I'm still wondering if gravity might be required. It's one thing to theorize that gravity MAY not be necessary, or that another force MIGHT be able to be substituted. It's quite a different matter to have tested it and know for sure. > I suspect wheel mounted balls will not work. The ramp works, I believe > because the field contours up the ramp and on exit are different. So, if the iron ball takes a perfectly straight (not sawtooth) path through the device, there's no way to juggle the magnet positions in order to produce the o/u drive effect? Imagine this: flatten the ramp, then curve it upwards slightly. Then, rather than releasing a free iron ball, instead fling an iron pendulum bob through the slot. If the length of the pendulum string matches the radius of ramp curvature, then you have a nearly-frictionless system. Of course the gravity effects at the exit of the ramp are gone. But if a "flattened" magnet ramp device can work, then a curved one should work too, no? The curvature could be pretty slight. If the pendulum is attached to a 9ft ceiling, a 10inch magnet track's curvature would be nearly undetectable. If a wheel-mounted ball can be made to work, (even if the wheel radius is 9ft!) then perhaps an iron disk (or maybe a toothed iron wheel) can be made to work. If so, then a very elegant and compact device becomes possible. > > And for higher torque, there is always the "variable capacitor" route: > > build a very very thin o/u rotor-motor, then stack a bunch of copies all > > on the same shaft. > > Hi Bill, > > Have trought of that .......... YUCK ......... We are both engineers and > BUILDERS and know that is the very LAST resort. Not necessarily: once you figure out the exact operation of the basic device, then perhaps you can build something like a multipole disk magnet with complicated asymmetrical pole pattern, with a toothed iron disk right above it. If this whole element can be made a couple of mm thick, then a stack of them wouldn't be huge. A capacitor is not inelegant if each plate is a very simple assembly. Also, a stack-of-pancakes motor might be a direct path to success, if it should prove difficult to scale up the basic effect in other ways. On a different topic: years ago on Keelynet a person told a story from childhood. A relative made a hand-carved wooden toy in which a marble spiralled down a track, then struck a paddle which operated an "elevator" and carried marbles back to the beginning. The device was o/u, it ran unattended with streams of marbles clicking along in a closed loop. If this device was real, there's a chance that the magnet-ramp devices are actually powered by some sort of nonlinear gravity physics. If so, a flattened magnet ramp can never work. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 14:11:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA01589; Thu, 15 May 1997 13:57:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:57:28 -0700 Message-ID: <337B7871.627D skylink.net> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:56:17 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H radiation? References: <19970515184557.AAA26947 LOCALNAME> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1rl_K3.0.lO.sYtUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > In modern physics: "Magnetism = Electricity + Relativity", Robert. > When you change capacitance C or voltage (potential) V you create a > "displacement current" i = dV/dt thus accounting for the other half > of the energy. > You can test this by putting a voltage on a pair of capacitor plates > and rapidly changing the plate spacing. Or, if you prefer, make one of > the plates a "propeller" on a high speed shaft and watch the EM waves > generated. > The flow of current down a wire where the "drift" velocity of > the electrons is a fraction of a cm/second will also attest to > the relativistic view of the nature of magnetism. Fun Huh? :-) Yes, all true. But, what of the case of a static E and H and field. You can not account for the angular momentum in the vacuum by considering only the E field. We must have our vortex, don't you know. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 15:57:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA23267; Thu, 15 May 1997 15:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <337B92BD.605A microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:18:29 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"d2o6N3.0.Ch5.iCvUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > On Thu, 15 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > > > William Beaty wrote: > > > > > > Greg, does your rotary device have a perfectly circular path inside, or is > > > the active member moving up and down against gravity? > > > > Yes. > > Oops! 'Yes' it's a perfect circle, or 'yes' it's moving up and down? If > it moves up and down, then the path is more like a cylindrical surface. > (If it's a perfect circle, then the ball could easily be glued to the edge > of a wheel.) Up and down. > > > The ramp devices and the Finstrud device > > > both require gravity for operation. If your rotary version also usues > > > gravity, then perhaps the effect depends on gravity and cannot occur > > > without up/down motion. > > > > At present that is true, however I am currently building a new device > > which doesn't use gravity. There are many other linear restortative > > forces available. > > Have you seen o/u effects when no ramps were used? In other words, if you > flatten out your magnet ramp device, does the excess speed seem to become > less? I'm still wondering if gravity might be required. It's one thing > to theorize that gravity MAY not be necessary, or that another force MIGHT > be able to be substituted. It's quite a different matter to have tested > it and know for sure. Flattened ramps can MOVE objects with very little mag differential. > > I suspect wheel mounted balls will not work. The ramp works, I believe > > because the field contours up the ramp and on exit are different. > > So, if the iron ball takes a perfectly straight (not sawtooth) path > through the device, there's no way to juggle the magnet positions in order > to produce the o/u drive effect? There seems to be many active elements : 1) Highly distorted magnetic fields. 2) Highly different field contours on entry and exit, somewhat tied to ball size. 3) Differential restortative forces on entry and exit. 4) Staying on the centre line between the magnets. Sort of like Wesley Gary's experiments. This really complicates things as the ball experiences many magnetic forces. 5) Ball size and "U" channel width. 6) Physical geometry of the exit path (critical). 7) Probably some others I haven't thought of YET. > Imagine this: flatten the ramp, then curve it upwards slightly. Then, > rather than releasing a free iron ball, instead fling an iron pendulum bob > through the slot. If the length of the pendulum string matches the radius > of ramp curvature, then you have a nearly-frictionless system. Of course > the gravity effects at the exit of the ramp are gone. But if a > "flattened" magnet ramp device can work, then a curved one should work > too, no? The curvature could be pretty slight. If the pendulum is > attached to a 9ft ceiling, a 10inch magnet track's curvature would be > nearly undetectable. Hi Bill, I haven't been able to get a straight ramp to release a ball, but I haven't really done a lot of work on this. My throught are that the field contours are very severe on straight through exit. Look at the Gifs I posted on the field contours under the magnets. Very different than straight through exit. Johnson did a lot of work in this area. Seems the trick is to achieve a moderate field contour which somewhat matches the geometry of the ball and what is happening to its permeability movement on its B/H curve. I could be wrong here, but the data seems to be pointing that way. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 16:29:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA00828; Thu, 15 May 1997 16:21:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:21:03 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:18:21 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Thermal Electromagnetic Drift Resent-Message-ID: <"x0CDf.0.nC.UfvUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:36 PM 5/14/97, George Holz wrote: >Horace, >Have you considered that the drift may also take place in the >wires connecting the semiconductor and the meter, since the >integrated magnetic field gradient sums to zero around the >loop, with a larger gradient for shorter distances for the wire. >Perhaps you need to find a material where the effect cannot >take place! > >George Holz >Varitronics Systems This is an interesting question and one I've mulled over a bit, and expect to think about further. As far as I can see, there is no "closed loop" kind of conservation with regard to conductors with thermal electromagnetic drift like there is with a generator like the homopolar. It is true that any value around a close loop must return to its initial state, but that does not guarantee that there is no current. Moving parts are not necessary to a TED device. I think it is interesting that no moving parts are necessary for the Meissner effect either, only a sufficent temperature drop to make the effect feasible. I think the following examples also demonstrate that current generation about a closed loop is feasible: | S | \ / \ / \ / \/ ========== <------- Spiral chip layers ---------- (or just a single closed loop) | N | | | FIG. 9 Looking at FIG. 6, X might be a cross section of two sides of a TEDD shaped like a ring. -------------------- -------------------- | N M1 S | | S M1 N | -------------------- -------------------- --------- --------- | X | | X | --------- --------- -------------------- -------------------- | S M2 N | | N M2 S | -------------------- -------------------- FIG. 6 I hope this answers your question and that I am not missing your point. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 16:59:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA03797; Thu, 15 May 1997 16:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705152349.TAA20171 mail3.voicenet.com> To: vortex email list server Subject: Fwd: Why heat engines can't make free power Date: Thu, 15 May 97 19:44:59 -0500 From: Eric Krieg -voicenet X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v3.1a Resent-Message-ID: <"0baCE2.0.5x.i0wUp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peter, any machine simply involving heat pumps and heat engines will never be able to produce net power output (that frustrating 2nd law). Gamgee, Stewert and Dennis Lee have all failed at such machines. It's analogous to pumping water up a hill and expecting it falling back through a generator to have more than enough energy to run the pump - or to recharge a battery using it's own power. In the case of heat engines (delivering mechanical energy from heat flow) - they are notoriously inefficient. Throwing in rotational inertia won't change the net balance of energy. Much "theory" appears to work only when apples and oranges are mixed. I don't like it any better than you but it's the law. All your good intentions, the worlds needs, your dedication and intelligence can't get past that. If you want a cheaper hobby of trying to solve the impossible - try becoming the 3000th person to try to solve the angle trisector problem. My page at: http://www.voicenet.com/~eric/dennis15.html describes the math of why the Lee-Fischer free energy machine can't work. And I have a history of PM and free energy machines (including some that tried to harness heat flow) at: http://www.voicenet.com/~eric/dennis4.html eric --- Hello. Back to the Minto Wheel. It would seem to me that a Minto Wheel operated as an insulated, closed system using a heat pump to move the heat from the upper chambers of the wheel to the lower chambers would violate the Second Law of thermodynamics. Energy in the form of heat would be used to vaporize the liquid in the lower chamber and the heat would be given up in the top chamber as the vapor condenses and pumped down to the next chamber that is in the lower position. I'm talking about putting a heat pump condenser and evaporator in each tank of the Minto Wheel. Each evaporator and condenser would be connected to one heat pump. Solenoid valves would control which chamber is being cooled and which chamber is being heated depending on the position of the chambers.Heat would constantly be recirculated from the higher chamber to the lower chamber. Then gravity would do the work of turning the wheel. No heat would ever be dumped as waste heat anywhere. Every heat engine must dump heat to an outside reservoir acording to the Second Law. Here seems to be an exception.I know energy is lost during the phase changes, but how would that lost energy compare to the energy output of the turning wheel? Pete -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- eric voicenet.com http://www.voicenet.com/~eric ------- FORWARD, End of original message ------- eric voicenet.com http://www.voicenet.com/~eric From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 18:04:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA18199; Thu, 15 May 1997 17:58:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:58:10 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:57:54 PST8PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Casimir force repulsive Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <135AB181B76 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"6C_6h.0.GS4.X4xUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: OK, this is from [ Am. J. Phys., Vol. 65, No. 5, May 1997] by V. Hushwater. REPULSIVE CASIMIR FORCE AS A RESULT OF VACUUM RADIATION PRESSURE "We study the Casimir force between a perfectly conducting and an infinitely permeable plate with the radiation pressure approach, used by earlier authors for the case of two perfectly conducting plates. This method illustrates in a very simple context how a repulsive force arises as a consequence of the redistribution of the vacuum-field modes corresponding to specific boundary conditions. We show that the result is independent of the cutoff function used for regularization." Interesting stuff!!! JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 20:15:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA07868; Thu, 15 May 1997 19:56:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:56:15 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <337BCCBB.7F51 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:55:55 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU device References: <199705151552.IAA19881 denmark.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HWkYI2.0.sw1.EpyUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Michael Randall wrote: > > do a demonstration with your > local university physics department ... > Once this gets out on the UPI/API newswire you will probably be famous > overnight. All the enthusiasts here seem to presume that Mr. Watson has discovered an ``overunity'' device. Allow me to point out that in science you are guilty until proven innocent---i.e., the more natural presumption is that the device works via known principles which are simply not evident to Mr. Watson. The is a particularly natural starting point for investigation given that their is no accepted experiment or theory that suggests such overunity devices are possible. In other words, instead of treating the occasion as if it were, say, the landing a big game fish---"Bravo, old chap, well done! Have it stuffed and mounted!"---we should rather treat it as a challenge to our understanding and endeavor to figure out what is going on. Of course, only Mr. Watson can allow such an investigation, and it does not seem forthcoming... > As far as I know your discovery is the first of its kind since > the Orffyreus' Wheel of the 1700's. The first of _what_ kind? And what is O's Wheel? > Do you think that with the help of the millions of > engineers worldwide this could happen sooner? > I think with the help of one physicist the issues would make themselves clear in short order. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 20:44:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA15543; Thu, 15 May 1997 20:41:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:41:27 -0700 Message-ID: <337BD71D.EF63A8C microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:10:13 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg , List Server Vortex Subject: Re: Simple OU Device X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199705160322.UAA16181 ganymede.compumedia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kr3W13.0.no3.cTzUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Becker wrote: > > Hey Greg, > > If your patent application is denied, will you then detail your > device? > > Just curious, Scott Becker Hi Scott, As most of it has been posted already in bits and pieces, that seems to be the way to go. Hadn't thought of a knock back though. Its good to have many minds online. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 20:52:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA15438; Thu, 15 May 1997 20:40:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:40:51 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Kasparov versus Deep Blue To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:40:43 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <970515162235_72240.1256_EHB107-1 CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at May 15, 97 12:22:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gMRsp1.0.2n3.2TzUp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > The programmers did not preprogram the answer to every possible chess problem. Although that can be said of every instance of a loop that replaces straight line code. > People say a computer solution set is only a pattern of bits, but by the > same token, what is a human idea other than a manifestation of chemical or > electrical states in brain cells? Sure, even a crazy man "thinks" often with a strange consistency. There is, however, a qualitative difference between sane and insane thoughts. Volition and self conciousness are thinking at its most complex and sophisticated -- levels we don't really yet understand and are unable to artificially duplicate at the present moment. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From FZNIDARSIC aol.com Thu May 15 21:18:46 1997 Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA22605; Thu, 15 May 1997 21:18:38 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Received: (from root localhost) by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA26017; Fri, 16 May 1997 00:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970516001801_1490464758 emout18.mail.aol.com> To: billb eskimo.com, CldFusion@aol.com, GeorgeHM@aol.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, 72240.1256@compuserve.com, zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, RMCarrell@aol.com, Puthoff@aol.com, fstenger interlaced.net, 101544.702@compuserve.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, RVargo1062@aol.com, CentManGrp@aol.com, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, zap@dnai.com, reed@zenergy.com, noever@webtv.net, JEFFJ ep.state.az.us, herman@college.antioch.edu, Lentin@imaginet.fr, barry math.ucla.edu, kennel@nhelab.iae.or.jp, ceti.msn.com@aol.com, VORTEX-L eskimo.com Subject: MY 3 PAGE EXTENEDED ABSTRACT FOR THE NASA PROPULSION PROG. Status: O X-Status: Poster Paper Submission for the Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Workshop The Effect of Electron Condensations Upon the Natural Symmetries and Applications May 15, 1997 Frank Znidarsic 481 Boyer St. Johnstown, Pa. 15906 fznidarsic aol.com http://members.aol.com/fznidarsic/index.html REPRESENTING The Yusmar Scientific Company Moldova Russia and Self ABSTRACT A good portion of man's technology is based on the exploitation of the natural symmetry that exists between the electric and magnetic fields. Other natural symmetries exist, however, they have never been exploited. It is well know that gravity produces a force. Einstein's General Theory of Relativity demonstrates that a changing momentum (a force) also induces a gravitational field. If the natural symmetry that exists between force and gravity is exploited it could be used to propel a spacecraft. A third natural symmetry exists between the strong nuclear force and the nuclear spin-orbit force. If exploited, the nuclear symmetry could be used to produce an unlimited supply of energy. THE PROBLEM The electromagnetic symmetry has a convenient range of interaction and it involves convenient amounts of energy. Due to these facts man began to its' exploitation in the 19th Century. This resulted in the electrical age that we all enjoy today. The gravitational force symmetry has an inconvenient long range of interaction and involves a high level of energy. These properties have inhibited its 1 exploitation. The strong nuclear / nuclear spin-orbit symmetry has a very short range of interaction (its confined within the nucleus) and involves high energy levels. It also was not exploited during most of the 20th Century. RECENT DEVELOPMENTS Cold Fusion reactions have been discovered. These reactions do not produce the expected high energy signatures. 2 All known nuclear interactions involve tunneling through or going over the coulombic barrier. These reactions have known high energy Q's. These energy flows produce signatures. This author suggests that a force with a longer range than the coulombic is transferring energy and in effect bypassing the coulombic barrier. The daughter 3 nucleons generated by cold fusion reactions are stable. The nuclear spin orbit force tends to couple nucleons pairwise into stable configurations. This author proposes that the range of the strong nuclear / nuclear spin-orbit force extends beyond the nucleus within condensed systems. Gravitational abnormalities have been detected emanating from rotating superconducting discs. This authors 4 detained analysis suggests that the range of the gravitational / force symmetry decreases within condensed systems. 5 BRIEF ANALYSIS Due to the Meissner effect, magnetic flux lines are expelled from superconductors. The range of the magnetic field becomes longer. No isolated electric charges exist within superconductors. The induced electrical fields within superconductors have dipole formulations. Dipoles have a short range of interaction. The range of the electromagnetic field is changed within superconductors due to infinite permittivity of and zero permeability of the condensed system. Superfluid helium will rotate only at integer velocities in a small cup. It appears that the quantum forces change range as well. This author suggests that the gravitational and nuclear / nuclear spin-orbit forces experience the same influence. NEXT STEP Once the mechanism underlying the Tempere Effect and the Cold Fusion phenomena have been identified other systems can be developed to harness the effect. 6 EXPERIMENTS Experiments such as Yuri Potapov's Yusmar device may by able to produce condensations through the use of the shock of cavitation. This process needs to be studied in 7 detail. This author has established a business relationship with Yuri Potapov and his Yusmar Scientific Co. Cryogenic reactors designed to exploit the longer range of nuclear / nuclear spin-orbit interaction may be developed to produce electricity directly. This author has filed a patent application on such a device. 8 NOTES 2 1. Gravitational field = G(dp/dt)/(c r) 2. Miley H.M. (1997) "Transmutations in Thin-Film Nickel Coatings Undergoing Electrolysis." Preprint 3. Znidarsic F. "The Zero Point Interaction" (1996) THE JOURNAL OF NEW ENERGY, Vol 1, No 2 4. Podkletnov E. and Levy A.D. "Gravitational Shielding Properties of Composite Bulk YBa2Cu307-x Superconductor below 70 C Under Electromagnetic Field", (1995) Tampere University Technical Report MSU95 5. Znidarsic F. "The Source of Inertial and Gravitational Mass" Preprint Currently at, ELECTRIC SPACECRAFT 6. Znidarsic F. "The Genesis of the Universe and Zero Point Energy" (1996) INFINITE ENERGY, Vol 1 No 5 7. Pool R. "Can Sound Drive Fusion in a Bubble" (12/16/1994) SCIENCE, vol 266 8. Serial #06/8245,539 (1/31/1996) Examiner D. Rebsch  From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 21:26:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA22667; Thu, 15 May 1997 21:18:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:18:52 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970516001801_1490464758 emout18.mail.aol.com> To: billb eskimo.com, CldFusion@aol.com, GeorgeHM@aol.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, 72240.1256@compuserve.com, zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, RMCarrell@aol.com, Puthoff@aol.com, fstenger interlaced.net, 101544.702@compuserve.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, RVargo1062@aol.com, CentManGrp@aol.com, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, zap@dnai.com, reed@zenergy.com, noever@webtv.net, JEFFJ ep.state.az.us, herman@college.antioch.edu, Lentin@imaginet.fr, barry math.ucla.edu, kennel@nhelab.iae.or.jp, ceti.msn.com@aol.com, VORTEX-L eskimo.com Subject: MY 3 PAGE EXTENEDED ABSTRACT FOR THE NASA PROPULSION PROG. Resent-Message-ID: <"v6PNQ.0.0Y5.h0-Up" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Poster Paper Submission for the Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Workshop The Effect of Electron Condensations Upon the Natural Symmetries and Applications May 15, 1997 Frank Znidarsic 481 Boyer St. Johnstown, Pa. 15906 fznidarsic aol.com http://members.aol.com/fznidarsic/index.html REPRESENTING The Yusmar Scientific Company Moldova Russia and Self ABSTRACT A good portion of man's technology is based on the exploitation of the natural symmetry that exists between the electric and magnetic fields. Other natural symmetries exist, however, they have never been exploited. It is well know that gravity produces a force. Einstein's General Theory of Relativity demonstrates that a changing momentum (a force) also induces a gravitational field. If the natural symmetry that exists between force and gravity is exploited it could be used to propel a spacecraft. A third natural symmetry exists between the strong nuclear force and the nuclear spin-orbit force. If exploited, the nuclear symmetry could be used to produce an unlimited supply of energy. THE PROBLEM The electromagnetic symmetry has a convenient range of interaction and it involves convenient amounts of energy. Due to these facts man began to its' exploitation in the 19th Century. This resulted in the electrical age that we all enjoy today. The gravitational force symmetry has an inconvenient long range of interaction and involves a high level of energy. These properties have inhibited its 1 exploitation. The strong nuclear / nuclear spin-orbit symmetry has a very short range of interaction (its confined within the nucleus) and involves high energy levels. It also was not exploited during most of the 20th Century. RECENT DEVELOPMENTS Cold Fusion reactions have been discovered. These reactions do not produce the expected high energy signatures. 2 All known nuclear interactions involve tunneling through or going over the coulombic barrier. These reactions have known high energy Q's. These energy flows produce signatures. This author suggests that a force with a longer range than the coulombic is transferring energy and in effect bypassing the coulombic barrier. The daughter 3 nucleons generated by cold fusion reactions are stable. The nuclear spin orbit force tends to couple nucleons pairwise into stable configurations. This author proposes that the range of the strong nuclear / nuclear spin-orbit force extends beyond the nucleus within condensed systems. Gravitational abnormalities have been detected emanating from rotating superconducting discs. This authors 4 detained analysis suggests that the range of the gravitational / force symmetry decreases within condensed systems. 5 BRIEF ANALYSIS Due to the Meissner effect, magnetic flux lines are expelled from superconductors. The range of the magnetic field becomes longer. No isolated electric charges exist within superconductors. The induced electrical fields within superconductors have dipole formulations. Dipoles have a short range of interaction. The range of the electromagnetic field is changed within superconductors due to infinite permittivity of and zero permeability of the condensed system. Superfluid helium will rotate only at integer velocities in a small cup. It appears that the quantum forces change range as well. This author suggests that the gravitational and nuclear / nuclear spin-orbit forces experience the same influence. NEXT STEP Once the mechanism underlying the Tempere Effect and the Cold Fusion phenomena have been identified other systems can be developed to harness the effect. 6 EXPERIMENTS Experiments such as Yuri Potapov's Yusmar device may by able to produce condensations through the use of the shock of cavitation. This process needs to be studied in 7 detail. This author has established a business relationship with Yuri Potapov and his Yusmar Scientific Co. Cryogenic reactors designed to exploit the longer range of nuclear / nuclear spin-orbit interaction may be developed to produce electricity directly. This author has filed a patent application on such a device. 8 NOTES 2 1. Gravitational field = G(dp/dt)/(c r) 2. Miley H.M. (1997) "Transmutations in Thin-Film Nickel Coatings Undergoing Electrolysis." Preprint 3. Znidarsic F. "The Zero Point Interaction" (1996) THE JOURNAL OF NEW ENERGY, Vol 1, No 2 4. Podkletnov E. and Levy A.D. "Gravitational Shielding Properties of Composite Bulk YBa2Cu307-x Superconductor below 70 C Under Electromagnetic Field", (1995) Tampere University Technical Report MSU95 5. Znidarsic F. "The Source of Inertial and Gravitational Mass" Preprint Currently at, ELECTRIC SPACECRAFT 6. Znidarsic F. "The Genesis of the Universe and Zero Point Energy" (1996) INFINITE ENERGY, Vol 1 No 5 7. Pool R. "Can Sound Drive Fusion in a Bubble" (12/16/1994) SCIENCE, vol 266 8. Serial #06/8245,539 (1/31/1996) Examiner D. Rebsch  From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 21:36:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA24632; Thu, 15 May 1997 21:27:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:27:33 -0700 Message-ID: <337BDC54.A3BD7AB5 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:32:28 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU device X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199705151552.IAA19881 denmark.it.earthlink.net> <337BCCBB.7F51@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lZzxi3.0.o06.q8-Up" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: > > Michael Randall wrote: > > > > > do a demonstration with your > > local university physics department ... > > Once this gets out on the UPI/API newswire you will probably be > famous > > overnight. > > All the enthusiasts here seem to presume that Mr. Watson > has discovered an ``overunity'' device. Allow me to point > out that in science you are guilty until proven innocent---i.e., > the more natural presumption is that the device works via > known principles which are simply not evident to Mr. Watson. This may be so. Time will tell. Can I add your name to the first FREE public demo list Barry? > The is a particularly natural starting point for investigation > given that their is no accepted experiment or theory that > suggests such overunity devices are possible. Have to READ the Kawai patent???????? BUILT a model to prove / disprove it???????? Or do you just TALK theory .............. > In other words, instead of treating the occasion as if it > were, say, the landing a big game fish---"Bravo, old chap, > well done! Have it stuffed and mounted!"---we should rather > treat it as a challenge to our understanding and endeavor > to figure out what is going on. Of course, only Mr. Watson > can allow such an investigation, and it does not seem forthcoming... You will have your go. > > As far as I know your discovery is the first of its kind since > > the Orffyreus' Wheel of the 1700's. > > The first of _what_ kind? And what is O's Wheel? > > > Do you think that with the help of the millions of > > engineers worldwide this could happen sooner? > > > > I think with the help of one physicist the issues would > make themselves clear in short order. Hi Barry, When the patent is in place, you are welcome to come to Adelaide and have a play, even invest. Do you REALLY expect me to lay it all out now? Come on now Barry, I know what's at stake here. Besides most of the device has already been posted. In the meantime I would really suggest you read and built a test Kawai motor and show us all where its WRONG. The patent has more than enough details for duplication. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 15 23:08:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA01900; Thu, 15 May 1997 23:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 07:55:55 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" Message-ID: <337bf6f2.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: "Peter Glueck" Subject: Re: MY 3 PAGE EXTENEDED ABSTRACT FOR THE NASA PROPULSION PROG. Resent-Message-ID: <"hQndT.0.cT.DX_Up" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Frank, It is my pleasure to confirm the receipt of your letter plus poster and I will translate it and send it to Yuri immediately. For any case of urgent communication please note my home phone 011-40-64-174976, I am available at home local time 19-23. I hope ypur collaboration with YUSMAR will be fine; it's big future there. Sincerely, Peter -- dr. Peter Gluck Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700 Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 01:33:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA13059; Fri, 16 May 1997 01:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:26:27 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H radiation? Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:25:28 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3381ee47.22015818 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <2.2.32.19970514074956.006d465c world.std.com> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970514074956.006d465c world.std.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"a2YCQ1.0.zB3.ne1Vp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 14 May 1997 07:49:56 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > Yes, but it does not take care of >1) every point of the background should equally respond or >2) the special relativity issue. > > Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) > [snip] Now I'm going to upset Hal, and turn the universe inside out.:) If one further assumes that the standing waves only exist *inside* particles, rather than outside, then your point 1 above is taken care of (however, I'm not sure where this leaves travelling waves?). I suspect that it may also take care of point 2, though I feel the water lapping at my chin now :). For a better and more mathematical treatment of this side of the coin look at: Jennison, R.C. "What is an Electron?" Wireless World, June 1979. p. 43. Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 01:36:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA13101; Fri, 16 May 1997 01:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:26:38 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H radiation? Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:25:30 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3382f160.22808459 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <19970515121631.AAA27708 LOCALNAME> In-Reply-To: <19970515121631.AAA27708 LOCALNAME> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BGVrk2.0.cC3.we1Vp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 15 May 1997 12:16:33 +0000, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >Try this on for size, Robin. :-) > >The vacuum only needs two "physical" properties; Capacitance C and >Potential V. Then, Energy W = .5 CV^2, Charge Q = CV = CV/4(pi)^2. >The inductance L is a manifestion of dC/dt (the displacement current). > >Empty space (the vacuum) like an empty bucket, should have infinite >capacitance and a corresponding amount of potential. :-) > >Disturb this balance, and you create a "universe". :-) > >You might be speaking of standing waves when you really mean >stationary waves, which make up the "material" universe, with Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between standing and stationary waves? >the boundary conditions established by Snell"s Law of total >internal reflection; sin theta critical = (e1/eo)^1/2 where >eo is the intrinsic capacitance of the vacuum and e1 is >the capacitance of the energy manifestation. :-) > >The frequencies for the normal modes of an "enclosure" are: >Fn = (c"/2)*[(Nx/Lx)^2 + (Ny/Ly)^2 + (Nz/Lz)^2]^1/2 where Nx, Ny, Nz >are integers from zero to infinity. Lx, Ly, Lz are the linear >dimensions of the "enclosure", c" is the velocity of propagation >IN THE ENCLOSURE {particle)and is LESS THAN THE VELOCITY OF LIGHT >IN VACUUM, ie., c/137. > >Bust that one, Hal! :-) > >Regards, Frederick [snip] Actually Frederick, I am quite partial to this and related hypotheses. I believe Prof. Sapogin proposes something similar. 1. L.G.Sapogin. "Deuteron interaction in unitary quantum theory", "On the mechanisms of cold nuclear fusion". Proceedings: Fourth International Conference on cold fusion.Vol.4:Theory and special topics papers. TR-104188-V4. July 1994 (Hawaii) 2. L.G.Sapogin. "Deuterium interaction in unitary quantum theory", "On the mechanism of cold nuclear fusion". Cold Fusion Source Book. International Symposium on Cold Fusion and Advanced energy sources. Belarusian State University. Minsk, Belarus, May 24-26, 1994 3. L.G.Sapogin. "Unitary Field and Quantum Mechanics." Investigation of systems. (in Russian, Vladivostok, Academy of Science ), No. 2, p. 54, (1973). 4. L.G.Sapogin. "On Unitary Quantum Mechanics." Nuovo Cimento. vol. 53A, No. 2, p. 251 (1979) 5. L.G.Sapogin."An Unitary Quantum Field Theory", Annales de la Fondation Louis de Broglie. vol. 5, No.4, 285 (1980) 6. L.G.Sapogin. "A Statistical Theory of Measurements in Unitary Quantum Mechanics." Nuovo Cimento. vol. 70B, No.1, p.80 (1982). 7. L.G.Sapogin. "A Statistical Theory of the Detector in Unitary Quantum Mechanics." Nuovo Cimento. vol. 71B, No.3, p. 246 (1982). 8. V.A.Boichenko, L.G.Sapogin."On the Equation of the Unitary Quantum Theory." Annales de la Fondation Louis de Broglie. vol. 9, No. 3, p.221 (1984). 9. L.G.Sapogin, V.A.Boichenko. "On the Solution of One Nonlinear Equation."Nuovo Cimento. vol. 102B, No.4, p.433 (1988). 10. L.G.Sapogin, V.A.Boichenko. "On the Charge and Mass of Particles in Unitary Quantum Theory." Nuovo Cimento.vol.104A,No.10, p.1483 (1991). 11. L.G.Sapogin. "Clear-cut picture of micro worlds".Technic for the young (in Russian) No.1, p.41 (1983). See also: Jennison, R.C. "What is an Electron?" Wireless World, June 1979. p. 43. Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 07:51:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA24842; Fri, 16 May 1997 07:46:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 07:46:43 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 07:46:38 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: Simple OU Device In-Reply-To: <337BD71D.EF63A8C microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Ju6ou2.0.446.JD7Vp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 16 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > As most of it has been posted already in bits and pieces, that seems to > be the way to go. Hadn't thought of a knock back though. Its good to > have many minds online. Of any patent applications, I'd think closed-loop overunity would be far and away the most prone to rejection! Whether or not you have working hardware, the chance is still the same. If I were you, I'd assume in advance that your patent paperwork will turn into a long and bloody fight, like Joe Newman's. Yes, there are other patents in the books. But what we cannot see is how many patent applications were turned down. If there are hundreds of rejections for each success, and so a 1% probability for success, looking at the records of accepted patents is going to be very misleading! Also, the chance that the national defense will "take" your patent is non-zero. I believe it would be very unwise to assume that it cannot happen. The chances are slim, but if it does happen, and if no one is able to replicate from the information you released, then your discovery is ruined. Better to have a couple of collegues offshore in various countries under NDA and having working copies, just to cover the eventuality. (But would this even work? If it became a matter of "national defense", might .au military have a legal method to stop foreigners?) .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 08:19:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA24379; Fri, 16 May 1997 08:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:10:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: H radiation? Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:09:34 +0000 Message-ID: <19970516150932.AAA28135 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"hmlpT2.0.ry5.tZ7Vp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:25 AM 5/16/97 +0000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between standing and >stationary waves? > That's a tricky one, Robin. For a stationary wave; "under certain boundary conditions the amplitudes of waves traveling in opposite directions add in phase to create a third wave in which the amplitude is stationary in time". For a standing wave; "under certain boundary conditions traveling waves (transmitted and reflected)add up so that the amplitudes are constant at a fixed position in space,but vary from point to point.standing waves are a special case of stationary waves in which at least one enclosure termination absorbs part of the energy of the incident waves, as well as reflecting a portion,thus resulting in a net power loss from the source". Now, if you consider a material particle as being a stationary wave "trapped" due to the difference of it's "internal permittivity" as opposed to the permittivity of the vacuum and invoke Snell' Law for total internal reflection of an EM wave, sin theta critical = (e1/eo)^1/2, or in effect a simple harmonic oscillator that exhibits the particle properties of mass, charge, spin, and a magnetic moment, plus a relativistic time-dilated internal loop current responsible for the gravitational field, you have about said it all for particles. On the other hand a standing wave is losing or gaining energy in such a way as to suggest that the hypothesis that the vacuum ZPE is replacing the energy that is lost by accelerated particles (charges)makes a lot of sense. Food for thought, Huh? :-) Regards, Frederick > > >Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 08:46:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA01955; Fri, 16 May 1997 08:42:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:42:51 -0700 Message-ID: <337C8211.7685 gorge.net> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:49:37 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minto Wheel References: <199705152111.OAA04202 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oGYFX3.0.TU.v18Vp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: > Huh? I don't understand what you are getting at. Linear velocity of the > circumference is a function of rotational velocity. This drive to driven setup > needs a 1:3600 ratio no matter how big or small you make the wheels, or how> many multiples of wheels you use. Using your above example to illustrate > magnitude, lets just say you could put a 1" diameter wheel on the generator, > you would have to put a 3600 inch / 300 foot /100 yard diameter driver wheel on > the MW. Well, caught me not doing my math again. OK, how about the best small generators run at 1500 to 1800 RPM? Is a fifty yard diameter wheel still too big? How about using a homemade alternator with permanent magnets on a large wheel (moving past stationary coils). This could be a lot slower, assuming enough PMs and pickup coils. IN FACT, why not PMs mounted on the outside edge of the Minto wheel, itself. One RPM, one PM, one coil = one cycle per minute. One RPM, sixty PMs, one coil = one cycle per second. One RPM, sixty PMs, sixty coils = sixty cycles per second? I am not sure about this. However, any number of cycles could be rectified to DC, for battery storage, then inverters, so as to buffer peak loads. "Simplify, simplify...." Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 10:46:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA25002; Fri, 16 May 1997 10:39:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:39:17 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970515133646.0069573c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:36:46 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Infinite Energy Resent-Message-ID: <"udhtM.0.X66.4l9Vp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene has put out his best issue of IE yet, IMHO. Arthur Clarke makes a brief appearance, sans his Amiga system. Jed has a good scientific article with his own distinctive historical flavor. More info on the Saint, when one thought it was worked out. Good discussion of Robert Bush's work. Article by Edward Lewis and Hal Fox were well done. Even more info on Blacklight. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 11:27:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA19091; Fri, 16 May 1997 11:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:05:33 -0800 To: tom gorge.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Minto Wheel Resent-Message-ID: <"vRGlh2.0.Dg4.pAAVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:49 AM 5/16/97, Tom Miller wrote: >John Steck wrote: > >> Huh? I don't understand what you are getting at. Linear velocity of the >> circumference is a function of rotational velocity. This drive to >>driven setup >> needs a 1:3600 ratio no matter how big or small you make the wheels, or >>how> many multiples of wheels you use. Using your above example to >>illustrate >> magnitude, lets just say you could put a 1" diameter wheel on the generator, >> you would have to put a 3600 inch / 300 foot /100 yard diameter driver >>wheel on Assume chain drives can be made at least 98 percent efficient. Therefore, ten chain drives in series would transmit .98^6 = .88 of the energy. To provide a 3600 to 1 speed ratio you need a gear ratio of less than 4 to 1 using six chain drives. You can do it at 81 percent effciency using 10 drives at almost 2 to one gear ratio (2.268). Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 11:57:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA05115; Fri, 16 May 1997 11:50:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:50:36 -0700 Message-Id: <199705161850.OAA21803 relay1.smtp.psi.net> From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Re: Thermal Electromagnetic Drift Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:51:22 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"b4N2P.0.nF1.xnAVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, I agree that there is not necessarily any "closed loop" conservation of TED, but since the magnetic potential returns to the same value around the loop the integrated gradient along the loop must sum to zero. I can't see any way to accumulate a net gradient or net TED by alternative geometry. A net TED effect requires either a nonlinear TED response versus gradient magnitude ( or other parameter ) or materials that have different TED response. I don't see how the examples you gave can provide any net integrated gradient or TED current. Please don't give up looking for an effect just because of a theoretical problem - theory is always at least incomplete! George Holz Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 11:58:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA05428; Fri, 16 May 1997 11:52:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:52:03 -0700 Date: 16 May 97 14:47:26 EDT From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Infinite Energy Message-ID: <970516184726_76570.2270_FHU40-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"OUBYs.0.TK1.HpAVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "best issue of IE yet, IMHO." Thank you , Mitch, we really worked hard on this one... There are a few errors in the Bush article, which will appear as errata next time. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 13:23:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA19090; Fri, 16 May 1997 13:15:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:15:16 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:14:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970516161356_-1399156520 emout05.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, jbarron@gpu.com Subject: Re: MY 3 PAGE EXTENEDED ABSTRACT FOR THE NASA PROPULSION PROG. Resent-Message-ID: <"FQ1uS1.0.Cg4.J1CVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you Peter. I have mailed you the remainder of the information you requested. Be sure to inform Yuri that I will do my best to represent his interests at the NASA conference. 50 people have been invited to the conference and I'm told the program is funded to an amount of 20 million dollars. I am going to suggest that NASA fund the shipment of a complete quantum system to the US. Hopefull, Yuri will be able to travel again to the US at NASA expense. I have some ideas of my own that I am also promoting. If my stuff flies as far as I am conserned the transfer of technology works both ways..I will make it avaliable in Modolva for Yury's development. Miley likes what I have to say and is pushing me big time. I told a few people at a bar that I was going to the NASA propulsion conference to obtain suport for the development of cold fusion. I told them that people who were working on a warp drive would be there. I told them that I was going as a representative of a Russian company, that I had just appeared on National TV in France and Belgium, and that I just came back from lecturing at Write Patterson before the Air Force. They told me they had seen little green men once and laughed. I guess they didn't belive me. It is truely hard to believe, but it is true. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 13:24:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA04039; Fri, 16 May 1997 13:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:14:27 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Thermal Electromagnetic Drift Resent-Message-ID: <"0tkBG1.0.1_.v3CVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:51 PM 5/16/97, George Holz wrote: >Horace, >I agree that there is not necessarily any "closed loop" >conservation of TED, but since the magnetic potential >returns to the same value around the loop the integrated >gradient along the loop must sum to zero. I can't see any >way to accumulate a net gradient or net TED by alternative >geometry. I don't understand why you are focused on accumulating a magnetic gradient. The net incremental motion is based on the Lorentz force. There is no need for utilizing a change in magnetic potential, as no energy is derived from such a potential difference in TED. Assuming there is zero resistance nothing much is happening except lateral motion of charge. Lateral charge motion without supplied energy readily occurs in superconductors, so this possibility can not be discounted. I conceed the fact that by generating a lateral charge motion that a current is generated (by defitition) and that such a current will generate a magnetic field, and that such a field requires energy to generate. Generating such a magnetic field around the current generates the potential A which opposes the current direction (Lentz). The energy required to generate the circular field comes from the initial heat, random kinetic energy, of the electrons which create the field. However, once such a field is generated, it opposes any retardation of the current by induction of a forward potential upon collapse, so no energy is in volved in maintaining the status quo. It is only when there is resistance that some ratchet mechanism must be utilzed to pump the heat. However, about this discussion, I would point out the camel's nose is already in the tent! If there is a net current, if there is a magnetic field or potential A generated, then the primary objective of demonstrating the inconsistency between the second law and the Lorentz force is already achieved. If this is achieved, it then seems appropriate to focus on how to maximize the effect. Michael Schaffer and Larry Wharton have both posted contrary opinions, but it seems to me these opinions do not apply to the conditions outlined in regards to a TED device made from pure Ga doped with P wherein free electrons are thermally generated from the P sites due to the thermal energy being almost twice the binding energy at 270 K, and where the compartment is bounded in the y and z axis without loss of kinetic energy. >A net TED effect requires either a nonlinear >TED response versus gradient magnitude ( or other parameter ) >or materials that have different TED response. I don't see >how the examples you gave can provide any net integrated >gradient or TED current. The examples I provided do not include any integrated magnetic gradient, as none is necessary. Hopefully, I have clearly demonstrated that charges freely moving in a magnetic gradient exerience a repetitive translational motion, or drift. This is nothing new. If you accept this then must you not also accept that the net motion represents a current? In the examples posted this current is circular. > >Please don't give up looking for an effect just because of a >theoretical problem - theory is always at least incomplete! > >George Holz >Varitronics Systems Yes. Personally, the lack of supporting data is bothering me a lot more than theory problems at the moment. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 13:26:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA20059; Fri, 16 May 1997 13:20:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:20:11 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:19:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970516161934_-2001441607 emout01.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H radiation? Resent-Message-ID: <"Xjs2k3.0.Hv4.w5CVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 5/16/97 7:29:57 AM, Jay Olsen asked: <> Yes, matter is in equilibrium with the surrounding ZPE, particle by particle, which is generated by the rest of matter distributed throughout the universe. <> Good question. If there were only one object, then, at least according to the cosmological feedback cycle model of ZPE generation, there might not be any ZPE, and then the object could not exist according to quantum principles. Much like the question behind Mach's Principle: If there were only one object in the universe, how would you know it was accelerating, and resisting that acceleration by inertial mass? Again, without the rest of the universe as a reference, you wouldn't know, and there might not be any ZPE generated to give you inertial effects (which in the ZPE model is a drag force associated with accelerating through the ZPE). In short, from the ZPE modeling viewpoint, without ZPE it all crumbles! Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 13:31:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA21502; Fri, 16 May 1997 13:26:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:26:25 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:25:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970516162527_121654430 emout11.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H radiation? Resent-Message-ID: <"5E7wW1.0.uF5.mBCVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 5/16/97 10:09:14 AM, Robin references: <> I like this paper somewhat, even though it does, as the rest of your post says, imply that the structure of the electron is internal and therefore does not need external ZPE. However, he needs boundaries for his electron to cause the internal wave structure to bereflected back and forth. Boundaries not accounted for. I might choose Casimir-type effects for the boundaries to contain the internal waves (which of course re-introduces the exterior ZPE), so I have turned it inside out again! Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 13:42:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA24005; Fri, 16 May 1997 13:39:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:39:22 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970516163720_236761645 emout04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"sJvoE1.0._s5.vNCVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6910 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 5/16/97 2:51:39 PM, Bill Beaty wrote: <> The over-unity claim could be downplayed; simply discuss a VERY efficient, magnetically-driven, ball-rotor motor that strongly compensates friction losses! Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 14:20:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA29265; Fri, 16 May 1997 14:15:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:15:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199705162115.RAA03111 relay1.smtp.psi.net> From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Re: Thermal Electromagnetic Drift Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:16:51 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"z9GqD3.0.B97.BwCVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6911 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, As I understood the TED effect a magnetic field gradient was required and the direction of the gradient determined the direction of drift, toward the lower field region. If this is not correct ignore my prior comments. George Holz Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 15:48:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA12411; Fri, 16 May 1997 15:46:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:46:03 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:43:18 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Thermal Electromagnetic Drift Resent-Message-ID: <"sa5cl2.0.l13.gEEVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Horace, >As I understood the TED effect a magnetic field >gradient was required and the direction of the gradient >determined the direction of drift, toward the lower >field region. If this is not correct ignore my prior >comments. > >George Holz >Varitronics Systems This understyanding is not correct. The proposed drift is perpendicualr to the gradient. An ExB drift is toward the lower gradient, but this is opposed in the y direction by the chip boundaries. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 16:15:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA16613; Fri, 16 May 1997 16:10:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:10:54 -0700 Message-ID: <337CE92D.3449 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 08:39:33 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1Zyht1.0.H34.ybEVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Hi All, I have just finished the first version of my OU toy. It is a closed loop system. Over the next several weeks, I will release a series of "How to Duplicate" posts. These posts will be restricted to Bill Beaty's Freenrg list. If you wish to be involved and ACTUALLY build a unit yourself, subscribe to freenrg. I am doing this to reduce traffic on the other lists. The unit I will describe is only flee power, but it will work and PROVES magnetic based OU is possible. I am doing this to ENCOURAGE others to think outside the square and maybe see further than I have. Each post will present a simple to build device. I encourage ALL of you to BUILD and ACTUALLY experiment. I expect much discussion from our more theory enriched friends on WHY and HOW the presented device works, hopefully based on the unit they have built. In the final installment, I will show you how to tie all the previous experiments together and build your own OU toy. I hope some of you will do this yourself and beat me there. If so, be patient and wait for me to finish before you present the other 100 ways you have found to make it happen. What do I want from all this? 1) To find out what the cost will be of tapping this energy source! 2) To create a spark in one of you, who will see how to do this better! 3) For the "Watson Effect" to be remembered! 4) Because the world has too many people who just talk theory! 5) Because I am a nice guy who wants to give something back, REALLY! So ............. Tune into the Freengr channel and be a part of history. I will start on Tuesday (Much to prepare before then). And NO the toy is NOT my device, just another way to do it (Hopefully the second of many). -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 18:09:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA02705; Fri, 16 May 1997 18:04:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:04:39 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <337D0400.7C48 math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:04:00 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers References: <337CE92D.3449 microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bKrYv1.0.qf.VGGVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > > Over the next several weeks, I will release a series of "How to > Duplicate" posts. > Excellent. This is the correct way to proceed. The odds of an isolated individual being in error are too great (even if they are a trained physicist) to work alone on such things. Of course, I personally predict the Watson effect will be elementary. :-) -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 19:58:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA19900; Fri, 16 May 1997 19:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 19:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:53:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705170253.VAA12797 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Potapov and NASA Resent-Message-ID: <"XtVKd3.0.os4.LtHVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 04:14 PM 5/16/97 -0400, FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: >Hopefull, Yuri will be able to travel again to the >US at NASA expense. Frank, you are probably closer to this thing than anyone else. Please tell us why NASA might be inclined to fund another Yusmar investigation after the LANL experiments failed with Dr. P himself present. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 21:05:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA27660; Fri, 16 May 1997 21:02:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:02:13 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:02:09 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: o/u ramp is not o/u? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ilI101.0.6m6.5tIVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: NO MOVING OF GOALPOSTS The main intention of the closed-loop requirement is that, once it is achieved, it is a *large* move towards showing that a device is actually tapping an unknown energy source. "Round one" must be awarded to the o/u supporters. Refusing to do this would be a form of cheating, of Goalpost Moving. The debate of course is not finished, since the evidence has been related second-hand, and of course there are other, less important "rounds" to be fought. Excluding the need for replication, the first and most major round has been fought and won. I recommend that everyone read "Pseudoskeptics" on the Anomalist page. http://www.cloud9.net/~patrick/anomalist/pseudo.html The author points out that "skeptical" objections are of two types: 1. theory fails because of lack of evidence. 2. Disbelief engenders a never-ending series of off-the-cuff alternate explanations meant to trivialize the presented evidence. Number two is not part of the standard process of science. Alternate explanations themselves cannot defeat the fact of an operating device. Alternate explanations constitute a competing theory, and as with any theory, they MUST NOT be accepted until supporting evidence for them is found. In other words, it is one thing to say that there is no evidence that "o/u" devices can ever exist. It is quite another thing to ignore strong evidence, and to insist that this particular device simply MUST be operating via conventional principles. So, until real evidence to the contrary is discovered, the evidence signified by closed-loop operation must be acknowledged and taken very seriously. Round two: how solid is the evidence? Eliminate remaining possibilities that the device works through conventional means. Possibilities: 1. Device is exhausting magnetization of magnets. 2. Device is extracting power from ambient AC powerline fields. 3. Device works via temperature gradient. 4. Device gathers ambient EM, especially from nearby radio or radar sites. 5. Device taps small vibrations of the ground. 6. Device taps ultrasound from nearby TV flyback or other source. 7. Device extracts chemical energy from magnets (b-field stays strong.) 8. any others? (For the traditionalists among us, I could include "device is a hoax". But I won't!) ;) To test numbers two and four, shield the device magnetically and electrically. A simple foil box would exclude high frequency such as FM transmitters, microwave, etc. For low freqs, move it far from power lines, or pull the main breakers in the house, or observe changes during wide area power blackouts. A heavy iron box would be required to reduce earth's field changes, but aren't they already too small an energy source to consider? A nearby AM transmitter would probably penetrate foil, so again a heavier box would be needed. Drive it through an iron-truss bridge? Take it into a deep highway tunnel? To crudely test number one, the obvious method of course is to operate the device continuously and see if it eventually stops and cannot be restarted. But how long should this take? Better to use a gaussmeter probe and monitor the field at various points during operation, and see if the measured field strength steadily declines. Or, somehow measure the energy expended per unit time, measure the energy contained in the magnet's fields, then operate the unit for long enough that the magnet's energy must have been exhausted. For number three, operate the device in a simple thermal shield. A styrofoam box, and location on an insulating bed away from heating sources and out of the sun should suffice, no? (If this device can power the ball motion via a couple of degrees of temperature gradient, then that's an amazing invention all by itself!) Floor vibrations could be eliminated by supporting it on partially inflated balloons, or suspending it from several rubber bands. However, explaining it via extracting sufficient energy from floor vibrations seems a bit of stretch. I don't see any way to easily prove the chemical possibilities. The chemical energy stored in matter is fairly large, and it might take months before the ball made a measurable change in the magnet composition. So Greg, can you perform some of these tests? (Or have you already?) Doing so should greatly reduce the small remaining chance that the device is powered by a mundane energy supply. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 23:09:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA10916; Fri, 16 May 1997 23:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <337C94FB.300F88A2 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:10:19 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AE4m1.0.Ug2.ZiKVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Very big decision Greg!, very big offer to the World! But not be surprized when you disclose your invention, some other parties will try to trouble you and the reality of the free energy by broadcasting their pseodo inventions and thier non theories. They will say "We already know it". Maybe they will try to sue you for stealing their ideas. Expect any kind of noise and disinformation efforts as usual. There are many "uncapable" people in the world to accept this gold offer. Best regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 23:45:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA11360; Fri, 16 May 1997 23:39:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:39:54 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:37:18 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: H radiation? Resent-Message-ID: <"fxFbD2.0.Ln2.vALVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:19 PM 5/16/97, Puthoff aol.com wrote: [snip] >Yes, matter is in equilibrium with the surrounding ZPE, particle by particle, >which is generated by the rest of matter distributed throughout the universe. > [snip] > >Hal Puthoff It appears that would be from the universe within the visible horizon, i.e. within about a 15 billion light years radius from the earth. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 23:47:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA11498; Fri, 16 May 1997 23:42:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:42:05 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:37:12 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Thermal Electromagnetic Drift (TED) errata Resent-Message-ID: <"_zfmM3.0.ap2.yCLVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Much thanks to George Holtz, Frank Stenger, and others for trying to help me understand and correct my mistakes, and for helping to move foreward. I see that I made at least two big documentation blunders. The biggest, which occurred everal places, is designating Farenheit or F by the 270 deg. design temperature instead of 270 K. At least the correct units were used in the calculations section. Second, I seem to have used Ga and Ge almost interchangeably as well in various places. In all cases I meant Ge. I think GaAs bears looking into, but haven't done that yet. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 23:55:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA12537; Fri, 16 May 1997 23:53:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:53:28 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:50:33 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: TED - Another negative experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"cEi2x.0.p33.eNLVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In an attempt to determine if easily measureable thermal electromagnetic drift (TED) occurs in copper wires I tried the following configuration: | | | | | | | | 0.5" radius x 5" long steel plumb bob | | with conical tip on 45 deg. slope | S | \ / oo\ /oo ooo\ /ooo oooo\/oooo oooooooooo <------- Coil of insulated wire, about 100 turns ---------- (Telephone cross connect wire) | N | | | | | | | | | 1x1x1.5" 35 MGO magnet | S | ---------- Coil resistance was 0.7 ohms. No voltage or current was detected. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 16 23:56:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA12625; Fri, 16 May 1997 23:53:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:53:45 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970517025305_1557239989 emout04.mail.aol.com> To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re : The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers Resent-Message-ID: <"s7Hcl.0.353.vNLVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 17/05/1997 01:25:07 , you wrote : << Date : 17/05/1997 01:25:07 From: gwatson microtronics.com.au (Greg Watson) I have just finished the first version of my OU toy. It is a closed loop system. Over the next several weeks, I will release a series of "How to Duplicate" posts. These posts will be restricted to Bill Beaty's Freenrg list. If you wish to be involved and ACTUALLY build a unit yourself, subscribe to freenrg. I am doing this to reduce traffic on the other lists. The unit I will describe is only flee power, but it will work and PROVES magnetic based OU is possible. >> Hi Greg, WONDERFULL, I think that you have choosen the good way. You will perhaps be remembered for O/U as ORWILL WRIGHT or CLEMENT ADER for aviation. Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 00:35:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA17829; Sat, 17 May 1997 00:31:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:31:08 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:28:36 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers Resent-Message-ID: <"sRxIq3.0.RM4.xwLVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 8:39 AM 5/17/97, Greg Watson wrote: >Hi All, > >I have just finished the first version of my OU toy. > >It is a closed loop system. > [snip] > >And NO the toy is NOT my device, just another way to do it (Hopefully >the second of many). > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax Your decision to disclose your invention to humanity is laudible, if that's what you are saying above. However, I'm a bit at a loss to understand exactly what you *are* saying there. Are you going to disclose your closed loop device, or a closed loop device? If you have made the decision to disclose a closed loop device, why the delay? Why not just blurt it out. You never know, you might get a visit from the men in black suits! Why not unload while you have the chance? As a currently working ou device it certainly is more than appropriate for this forum! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 01:04:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA17066; Sat, 17 May 1997 01:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <337D5EA3.E0E0CA4B microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:00:43 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UNjsq2.0.TA4.POMVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > > > As most of it has been posted already in bits and pieces, that seems to > > be the way to go. Hadn't thought of a knock back though. Its good to > > have many minds online. > > Of any patent applications, I'd think closed-loop overunity would be far > and away the most prone to rejection! I agree. > Whether or not you have working > hardware, the chance is still the same. If I were you, I'd assume in > advance that your patent paperwork will turn into a long and bloody fight, > like Joe Newman's. Unlike Joe, I will have working hardware. Verified working hardware. And I will not be claiming "PM". THe IBM server is very good for looking at how others word their patents. My patent attorney isn't half bad either. > Yes, there are other patents in the books. But what > we cannot see is how many patent applications were turned down. If there > are hundreds of rejections for each success, and so a 1% probability for > success, looking at the records of accepted patents is going to be very > misleading! I always was a gambler. I like long shots, the challenge. But its good to always have a card up the sleve. > Also, the chance that the national defense will "take" your patent is > non-zero. I believe it would be very unwise to assume that it cannot > happen. The chances are slim, but if it does happen, and if no one is > able to replicate from the information you released, then your discovery > is ruined. Better to have a couple of collegues offshore in various > countries under NDA and having working copies, just to cover the > eventuality. That is under way, the InterNet, your mail groups and the future "Simple OU Toy" posts will ensure the flame WILL not die. > (But would this even work? If it became a matter of > "national defense", might .au military have a legal method to stop > foreigners?) This is complicated as I am American. I have been a Permanent Resident of Oz for some 25 years. Hi Bill, Keep talking, its the flow of ideas that will make this gadget change minds and then our world. I am still very worried about where the energy is coming from and what we will have to "Pay the Ferryman" to use it. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 01:05:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA17020; Sat, 17 May 1997 01:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <337D4469.92E72316 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 15:08:49 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970516163720_236761645 emout04.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"D-JSN1.0.s94.IOMVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Puthoff aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/16/97 2:51:39 PM, Bill Beaty wrote: > > < far > and away the most prone to rejection! >> > > The over-unity claim could be downplayed; simply discuss a VERY > efficient, > magnetically-driven, ball-rotor motor that strongly compensates > friction > losses! > > Hal Puthoff Hi Hal, Noted! -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 01:10:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA17090; Sat, 17 May 1997 01:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <337D60CF.729CF22D microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:09:59 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is the principle of the Simple X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970514215026_100433.1541_BHG64-1 CompuServe.COM> <337A3FB5.276F@microtronics.com.au> <337A4D44.1C0C@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ioeqc2.0.xA4.TOMVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > > > > > I demonstrated the device to several of my close friends as I made > the > > video. > > > > No one was really impressed or REALLY interested. > > > > That is not too surprising. I agree. > I guess you don't have any scientists as close friends. No, not yet. > If you demonstrated the device to me, I would not be impressed, Really? > but I would be quite interested to figure out how it worked. To find the con? No wires, springs or coils Barry. Maybe I have invented a tractor beam and switch in on at just the right time. Come on Barry, open your mind. We may need your help (and chalkboard) to really understand what's happening. > Try showing it to a physicist next time. I have ............... You should read my previous posts. > Barry Merriman Hi Barry, I really want you on my side. Your caution is needed to balance the equation. Just keep an open mind. That's all I ask. Follow my "Simple OU Toy" posts. Build the examples, be a mentor and try to explain with your maths to all what is or is not going on. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 01:39:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA22085; Sat, 17 May 1997 01:37:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:37:04 -0700 Message-ID: <337D6DE1.667792DA microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 18:05:45 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PEBts1.0._O5.luMVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > NO MOVING OF GOALPOSTS > > The main intention of the closed-loop requirement is that, once it is > achieved, it is a *large* move towards showing that a device is actually > tapping an unknown energy source. > > "Round one" must be awarded to the o/u supporters. Refusing to do > this would be a form of cheating, of Goalpost Moving. The debate of > course is not finished, since the evidence has been related second-hand, > and of course there are other, less important "rounds" to be fought. > Excluding the need for replication, the first and most major round has > been fought and won. > > I recommend that everyone read "Pseudoskeptics" on the Anomalist page. > http://www.cloud9.net/~patrick/anomalist/pseudo.html > The author points out that "skeptical" objections are of two types: > > 1. theory fails because of lack of evidence. > > 2. Disbelief engenders a never-ending series of off-the-cuff alternate > explanations meant to trivialize the presented evidence. > > Number two is not part of the standard process of science. Alternate > explanations themselves cannot defeat the fact of an operating device. > Alternate explanations constitute a competing theory, and as with any > theory, they MUST NOT be accepted until supporting evidence for them is > found. > > In other words, it is one thing to say that there is no evidence that > "o/u" devices can ever exist. It is quite another thing to ignore strong > evidence, and to insist that this particular device simply MUST be > operating via conventional principles. > > So, until real evidence to the contrary is discovered, the evidence > signified by closed-loop operation must be acknowledged and taken very > seriously. > > Round two: how solid is the evidence? Eliminate remaining possibilities > that the device works through conventional means. > > Possibilities: > > 1. Device is exhausting magnetization of magnets. If so, how much power can we get? > 2. Device is extracting power from ambient AC powerline fields. Will select a bush site this weekend and try. > 3. Device works via temperature gradient. Others have suggested the magnets will cool. Haven't observed this, but the output power is not much. > 4. Device gathers ambient EM, especially from nearby radio or radar sites. Bush site will andwer this as well. > 5. Device taps small vibrations of the ground. Wild. But I will isolate on foam. > 6. Device taps ultrasound from nearby TV flyback or other source. Bush site as well. > 7. Device extracts chemical energy from magnets (b-field stays strong.) Maybe??????? > 8. any others? ZPE powering up the electron spins??????? > 9. (For the traditionalists among us, I could include "device is a hoax".) > But > I won't!) But I did. The "Simple OU Toy" will solve that! > To test numbers two and four, shield the device magnetically and > electrically. A simple foil box would exclude high frequency such as FM > transmitters, microwave, etc. For low freqs, move it far from power > lines, or pull the main breakers in the house, or observe changes during > wide area power blackouts. A heavy iron box would be required to reduce > earth's field changes, but aren't they already too small an energy source > to consider? A nearby AM transmitter would probably penetrate foil, so > again a heavier box would be needed. Drive it through an iron-truss > bridge? Take it into a deep highway tunnel? > > To crudely test number one, the obvious method of course is to operate the > device continuously and see if it eventually stops and cannot be > restarted. But how long should this take? Better to use a gaussmeter > probe and monitor the field at various points during operation, and see if > the measured field strength steadily declines. Or, somehow measure the > energy expended per unit time, measure the energy contained in the > magnet's fields, then operate the unit for long enough that the magnet's > energy must have been exhausted. > > For number three, operate the device in a simple thermal shield. A > styrofoam box, and location on an insulating bed away from heating sources > and out of the sun should suffice, no? (If this device can power the ball > motion via a couple of degrees of temperature gradient, then that's an > amazing invention all by itself!) > > Floor vibrations could be eliminated by supporting it on partially > inflated balloons, or suspending it from several rubber bands. > However, explaining it via extracting sufficient energy from floor vibrations > seems a bit of stretch. > > I don't see any way to easily prove the chemical possibilities. The > chemical energy stored in matter is fairly large, and it might take > months before the ball made a measurable change in the magnet composition. > > So Greg, can you perform some of these tests? (Or have you already?) > Doing so should greatly reduce the small remaining chance that the device > is powered by a mundane energy supply. Hi Bill, I will do the tests and report back. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 01:58:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA19886; Sat, 17 May 1997 01:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <337D7202.60FEDCF7 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 18:23:22 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uwlrR1.0.es4.e9NVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Horace Heffner wrote: > > Your decision to disclose your invention to humanity is laudible, if that's > what you are saying above. However, I'm a bit at a loss to understand > exactly what you *are* saying there. Are you going to disclose your closed > loop device, or a closed loop device? A "Simple OU Toy". A perpetual mobile. No output power. Just goes round and round. > If you have made the decision to > disclose a closed loop device, why the delay? Why not just blurt it out. I don't work that way. I want many to understand and build the device. Nothing like hands on to teach. Too many talkers. The world needs more builders. Becides, its my ball game. I make the rules. > You never know, you might get a visit from the men in black suits! Why not > unload while you have the chance? I don't believe in men in black suits. It makes good TV and movies. Most of my work has already posted on the net. Others are working to duplicate. Who can stop that? > As a currently working ou device it certainly is more than appropriate for this forum! > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hi Horace, I have been told Vortex was for CF. Many have told me my magnetic discussions don't belong on Vortex. So Freenrg it is. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 02:00:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA23299; Sat, 17 May 1997 01:59:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:59:21 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 03:59:16 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: from "William Beaty" at May 16, 97 09:02:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"reGk2.0.vh5.eDNVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A William Beaty worte: > "Round one" must be awarded to the o/u supporters. Refusing to do > this would be a form of cheating, of Goalpost Moving. If I CLAIM I can knock out Mike Tyson, am I awarded the first round? Let's put this fight in historical perspective. O/U has entered the ring many times in the history of mankind, each time with bigger and bolder claims of superiority, and each time it has been knocked out of the ring on its keister. And each time it picks its bloodied beaten self up and declares it'll be back -- that the fight was rigged, that there is no justice, that revenge will be its eventual reward. Now comes O/U, claiming yet again to be contender and not pretender, and we're already awarding him rounds? Puleeze! I have an open mind, but I hope not an empty mind. Given O/U's track record, I'll wait until round 12, or a TKO leaves one of the fighters standing and one being counted out, before I'll switch my betting strategy. Remember, even Rocky (Stallone) didn't win the fight in the first movie. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 07:13:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA10971; Sat, 17 May 1997 07:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 07:08:44 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:06:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970517100654_-1063332297 emout16.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com Subject: Re: Potapov and NASA Resent-Message-ID: <"2N1sz.0.Lh2.glRVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, I posted that E-mail to vortex by mistake. Scott you and Puthoff are closer to this thing than you think. Ask Hal if cavitation can result in electron condensations. I believe it can and that electron condensations are the key to the process. Crissitan Ismert of CETI tells me that they have just detected signs of superconductivity in the beads. Just as I have said they would. Scott can you do me a favor. Hal has copies of Jennison's work I hate to ask him because he is so busy. Could you please send me a copy? My local library does not have them. Not all comments are positive. John X from Write Patterson responded to my work after my visit to the base. response attached. He doesn't even acknowledge that a symmetry between force and gravity exists. I admit the the exponent went k-fluly in the equation after I transmitted it. I believe that I have a lot to offer because many main stream scientists do not even understand the basics. field in Newtons/ KW = G(dp/dt)/ccr Frank: I thought that I would respond to the poster paper stuff you sent me earlier today. From my responses, I hope you will SEE MORE CLEARLY THE NEED TO TAKE MORE COURSES IN PHYSICS. MY COMMENTS: 1. In the ABSTRACT portion of your paper you state that "Einstein's General Theory of Relativity demonstrates that a changing momentum(a force) also induces a gravitational field." If what you are referring to is the Principle of Equivalence, than this is a completely erroneous statement. This principle states that a uniformly accelerating reference frame will MIMIC THE EFFECTS of a gravitational field, such that to an observer in this moving frame he will ASSUME that he is in a gravitational field - until some outside observer tells him the real story, i.e. that the first guy's reference frame is accelerating with respect to the outside observer's, and that the outside observer measures NO GRAVITATIONAL FIELD. It's just like putting you on a merry-go-round and having you throw a ball in a straight line. If you are not aware of your motion with respect to the ground, you will see the ball "curve" and possibly postulate that some "mysterious force" has pulled your throw to the side. Again, the man on the ground has no problem with this: your throw did go straight w/r to the ground, it's only your rotating (accelerating) reference frame that led you to believe this. So, according to the General Theory and Equivalence, a force DOES NOT INDUCE a gravitational field, anymore than the merry-go-round did. 2. In the first reference you give the formula for a gravitational field grav. field = G (dp/dt)/(cr). First of all, wherever this formula comes from, it is dimensionally incorrect. The physics definition of a gravitational field, classically (in sophomore physics) is g = F/m = force per unit mass and has units of N/kg or ,equivalently, m/sec(2). Your formula has units of (N/kg x m/sec), which are the units of (force) x (velocity) = power. So, unless you're willing to change the whole system of classical physics units with regard to fields, force, power, etc, this formula is WRONG. Next, this formula does not even seem conceptually correct. Is the dp/dt term on the rhs of the equation the change in the momentum of the object feeling the effects of the gravity field, or the object generating the gravity field? If it refers to the object experiencing the field, it has no business on the rhs of this equation. If, it is an object which is generating the field, I might possibly see that its changing momentum might produce a changing grav field, i.e. a gravity wave, but not a static field as is claimed for this formula. So, Frank, for the 55th time as I've told you, no serious physicist in his right mind will look at this stuff as other than TOTAL CRAP, when your postulates have assumptions in them which show a lack of understanding of the basic tenets of sophomore level, calculus based physics. They have not reached beyond the level of fanciful bullshit. Do yourself a favor, and take several more physics courses. John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 07:38:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA19269; Sat, 17 May 1997 07:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 07:34:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:33:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970517103309_-465505515 emout18.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolytic Mills Cell Replications? Resent-Message-ID: <"eA92A3.0.zi4.i7SVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6930 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message posted on May 15, Michael Schaffer said that recombination wasn't an issue "if the (-1.48 I) is not used. However, Mills DOES use it in his papers." Yes, he did. But he didn't need to. The data presented in his 1994 article showed power out greater than power in (V*I) for eleven experiments out of fourteen. In his 1995 article he presented data for an experiment lasting two weeks that showed five times as much power out as power in, and also five times as much energy out as energy in. Michael, have you had a chance to read his 1994 and 1995 articles? Tom Stolper. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 12:42:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA28886; Sat, 17 May 1997 12:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:29:41 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers Resent-Message-ID: <"mkP0g.0.G37.WVWVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 6:23 PM 5/17/97, Greg Watson wrote: [snip] >Becides, its my ball game. I make the rules. [snip] >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax Ah, so it *is* a game! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 13:31:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA08999; Sat, 17 May 1997 13:28:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:28:57 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:28:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970517162820_35786578 emout19.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H radiation? Resent-Message-ID: <"M0zIJ.0.TC2.8KXVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 5/17/97 6:45:57 AM, Horace Heffner wrote: <> That's right. If you check my referenced paper "Source of Vacuum Eelectromagnetic......." you will see that I assume an Einstein-de Sitter universe and integrate contributions out to the the so-called "radius of communication" defined for this universe, which is from how far signals can arrive here since the Big Bang. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 13:37:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA06505; Sat, 17 May 1997 13:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:34:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:33:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970517163330_-1298248618 emout11.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"bYv9k1.0.Qb1.dPXVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 5/17/97 8:04:23 AM, Greg wrote: <> Like I said in an earlier post, if it's coming from mag energy, but not from demagnetization, then I have a potential answer; that electron spin, from which magnetism comes, could in principle be a transducer of vacuum ZPE which insists on keeping electon spin at h-bar/2. If that's the case, not to worry - the Ferryman will never miss it! Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 13:46:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA11342; Sat, 17 May 1997 13:43:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:43:41 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <337E186D.1C6C math.ucla.edu> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:43:25 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3u4bK3.0.4n2.yXXVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A William Beaty wrote: > > NO MOVING OF GOALPOSTS > > > "Round one" must be awarded to the o/u supporters. > ...there are other, less important "rounds" to be fought. > ...the first and most major round has been fought and won. > I beg to disagree. The most important round is the last one, in which it is demonstrated that the device is not tapping known energy sources. After all, my little dunking bird toy is a "closed loop" system as well, in that it will run for many days with no obvious change in its state. Its inventor could have easily proferred it up as an O/U device. Various heat pump devices can even look grossly over unity. I don't mean to be too hard on Greg. In fact, Greg is fine--after all, he's doing experiments, and talking about experimental observations. What is somewhat appalling is how _other folks_ so immediately jump to the OU conclusion at the slightest provocation, despite several millenia of evidence to the contrary. My hat is off to Greg for making a cool toy. There is simply no reason to think it is an overunity device. As you yourself noted, there are myriad potential sources of motive power. If I had to make a wild guess, I might think that each time the ball went through the black box, the resulting perturbation in the magnetic field led to a relaxation of the ferromagnet to a more magnetized state (lower energy), which expelled the ball at a slightly higher energy. The way to test this theory would be to replace the magnets in the system with DC electromagnets, so that there is no energy available from inreasing the magnetization of the system. If the system does not work when configured with all electromagnets, it is almost certainly tapping the energy of magnetization. Another way to test this theory would be to fully magnetize the ferromagnetics involved---i.e. expose them to a strong magnetic field, and heat them to the Curie point of the material, then cool them slowly to get a single magnetic domain. The above theory would predict that such a fully magnetized material could not power this system. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 14:23:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA16597; Sat, 17 May 1997 14:20:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:20:04 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:17:22 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? Resent-Message-ID: <"hXCw_.0.F34.34YVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 1:43 PM 5/17/97, Barry Merriman wrote: [snip] > >Another way to test this theory would be to fully magnetize the >ferromagnetics involved---i.e. expose them to a strong magnetic >field, and heat them to the Curie point of the material, then >cool them slowly to get a single magnetic domain. The above theory >would predict that such a fully magnetized material could not >power this system. > > > >-- >Barry Merriman The thermos test might provide a quick cheap negative on that theory by showing no warming. Two Thermos food jars (or just the glass insert vacuum flasks) laid end to end with a thin flat piece of foam insulation in between as a seal is the best insulation I've found readily available. A thermometer inside and outside is all that is needed. For convenience it might be possible to insert a thermometer through the foam seal. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 14:35:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA20599; Sat, 17 May 1997 14:33:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:33:13 -0700 Date: 17 May 97 17:30:54 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers Message-ID: <970517213053_100433.1541_BHG76-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"GJGUd2.0.j15.NGYVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace, > Ah, so it *is* a game! *Everything* is a game. Some sad bastards lose sight of this fact. Chris (waiting for his Ragland triode cell to burst into song....) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 14:37:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA15336; Sat, 17 May 1997 14:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: 17 May 97 17:30:56 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? Message-ID: <970517213056_100433.1541_BHG76-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Zv5_M1.0.Ol3.1HYVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry, > If I had to make a wild guess, I might think that each time the > ball went through the black box, the resulting perturbation in the > magnetic field led to a relaxation of the ferromagnet to a more > magnetized state (lower energy), which expelled the ball at a > slightly higher energy. Maybe. I (of course) hold no brief for Greg's machine, but you have to work out the 'energy' (if any) held by a ferromagnet, and work out whether there's anything useful there - and check how they 'deteriorate' over time. > The way to test this theory would be to replace the magnets in the > system with DC electromagnets, so that there is no energy > available from inreasing the magnetization of the system. If the > system does not work when configured with all electromagnets, it > is almost certainly tapping the energy of magnetization. Sorry, that's nonsense. You can't change the basics of a device and then claim you've proven *anything* about the device. You have to test (properly) your hypothesis instead. By the way, have you yet done that stuff with PLA and New Scientist? Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 15:33:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA30927; Sat, 17 May 1997 15:31:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 15:31:18 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:22:15 PST Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? Message-ID: <19970307.152217.8958.0.tv juno.com> References: <337E186D.1C6C math.ucla.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-7,9-11,13,16-19 From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan) Resent-Message-ID: <"bGbPD1.0.5Z7.r6ZVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Berry, >If I had to make a wild guess, I might think that each time the >ball went through the black box, the resulting perturbation >in the magnetic field led to a relaxation of the ferromagnet >to a more magnetized state (lower energy), which expelled the >ball at a slightly higher energy. When Greg Watson tells us how, I am going to try my best to follow his instructions with the intent of making it work. I want to see how long the ball and track machine will run. If you are right about it tapping stored energy in the magnet then it should stop running in a fairly short time. However, if it works by organizing thermal or quantum fluctuations, it will keep on going, and going, and going ........ Tim ( tv juno.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 16:05:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA03322; Sat, 17 May 1997 16:02:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:02:48 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 18:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970517185849_-1934182745 emout05.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, CldFusion@aol.com, 72240.1256@compuserve.com, Puthoff aol.com, RMCarrell@aol.com, fstenger@interlaced.net, 101544.702 compuserve.com, RVargo1062@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, CentManGrp@aol.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, reed zenergy.com, noever@webtv.net, JEFFJ@ep.state.az.us, marc.g.millis lerc.nasa.gov, jewel@sgi.net, herman@college.antioch.edu, Lentin imaginet.fr, barry@math.ucla.edu, kennel@nhelab.iae.or.jp, ceti.msn.com aol.com, FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Subject: picture at WPAFB May 14 1997 Resent-Message-ID: <"stopd.0.pp.NaZVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wright Patterson air Base picture ftp://members.aol.com/fznidarsic/dayton.gif PICK_ME Frank Znidarsic fznidarsic aol.com 481 Boyer St. http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html Johnstown, Pa. 15906 Automatic links: Home_Page Send_E-mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 16:45:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA09842; Sat, 17 May 1997 16:43:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:43:05 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 15:40:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers Resent-Message-ID: <"7PZwP1.0.iP2.8AaVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 5:30 PM 5/17/97, Chris Tinsley wrote: >Horace, > > > Ah, so it *is* a game! > >*Everything* is a game. Some sad bastards lose sight of this fact. > >Chris >(waiting for his Ragland triode cell to burst into song....) Here I thought everything was a play .. and the world a stage. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 17:00:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA01447; Sat, 17 May 1997 16:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:02:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Jason Aldo To: John Steck Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minto Wheel In-Reply-To: <9705131727.ZM11030 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"f8XVS2.0.UM.lLaVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > I think you are letting your enthusiasm get the best of you. I suggest you > read up on Stirling cycle engines. The most common solution is utilizing a > regenerator to boost transfer efficiency. John, I think you are missing my point.A stirling engine is a heat engine. It follows Carnot's law. A regenerator puts some of the waste heat back into the engine, however, some heat must be dumped to the outside according to Carnot.The heat pump version of the Minto Wheel that I'm suggesting, if possible, would not change heat into mechanical energy. It would recirculate heat to cause phase changes and gravity would power the wheel. No heat would be dumped to the outside. Carnot's law wouldn't apply because it would not be a heat engine. The greater temperature differential that a heat pump could supply would enable the wheel to rotate faster (the phase changes would happen at a faster rate) and the slow R.P.M. problem would be solved. Much more power could possibly be had for a given size wheel. > > Still crunching the numbers, but I may have a design suggestion: > > --- --- > | |-<<=======| | > | | ----0---- | | > | |=======>>-| | > --- --- > > Two one way lines between aluminum chambers. Use the heating and expanding gas > pressure on one end to push ammonia vapor through a pinch at the other end. No > external cooling required to condense the gas. No mechanics, no heat pumps, no > special environments required. I'm not sure I understand your design. Wouldn't the pinch cause a higher pressure in the system, thus increasing the amount of heat needed to vaporize the liquid in the lower chamber? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 18:46:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA10531; Sat, 17 May 1997 18:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 18:44:07 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 01:42:41 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <33805b11.11339733 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"O6XeB3.0.Ta2.bxbVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 16 May 1997 07:46:38 -0700 (PDT), William Beaty wrote: [snip] >is ruined. Better to have a couple of collegues offshore in various >countries under NDA and having working copies, just to cover the >eventuality. (But would this even work? If it became a matter of >"national defense", might .au military have a legal method to stop >foreigners?) [snip] Isn't the net a wonderful thing? :-)}}} Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 18:47:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA10501; Sat, 17 May 1997 18:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 18:44:04 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H radiation? Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 01:42:37 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <337f57bb.10485921 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <970516162527_121654430 emout11.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <970516162527_121654430 emout11.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BMBgz.0.zZ2.WxbVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 16 May 1997 16:25:42 -0400 (EDT), Puthoff aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 5/16/97 10:09:14 AM, Robin references: > ><> > >I like this paper somewhat, even though it does, as the rest of your post >says, imply that the structure of the electron is internal and therefore does >not need external ZPE. However, he needs boundaries for his electron to >cause the internal wave structure to bereflected back and forth. Boundaries >not accounted for. I might choose Casimir-type effects for the boundaries to >contain the internal waves (which of course re-introduces the exterior ZPE), >so I have turned it inside out again! > >Hal Puthoff > > Hal, My understanding of the article may not be correct, but it was my impression that he eventually chose for a reflection model, where the node is at the centre of the particle, with the exterior "ends" of the wave "loose". I.e. much like reflecting a wave off the loose end of a rope. I'm not sure that such a model actually requires an external boundary. I thought the "boundary" had been moved to the centre of the particle. In a sense this seems to be something like Ross Tessien's model where condensation at the core of the particle causes total reflection off that core. As to why the radiation doesn't keep going out into space once reflected, I have a nasty suspicion that this has to do with sink-source role exchange where when you get down to the least possible energy exchange, the last photon gets "stuck". It can't escape because its emission by the source results in the source becoming the sink. So it just gets traded back and forth till eternity. This results in it having a very localised average position, which we then call a particle. The problem I have with this approach is that IMO the surrounding space should be just as good a sink as the erstwhile source, so only some of the photons should return, with the rest radiating. Maybe that's it? Both models are correct! Part of the photons in the universe are external and constitute the ZPE, while the rest are internally reflected? (Rambling on a bit here :) Maybe it's the ratio of these two parts that determines alpha. If so, then might one expect the total mass of the universe to be 1/alpha times that of the matter alone? I'm pretty sure this would result in a closed universe. Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 19:56:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA17262; Sat, 17 May 1997 19:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 21:52:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705180252.VAA17529 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: FZNIDARSIC aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, little@eden.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Potapov and NASA Cc: puthoff aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"0IYKx1.0.aD4.tycVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:06 AM 5/17/97 -0400, FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: >Scott, I posted that E-mail to vortex by mistake. Scott you and Puthoff are >closer to this thing than you think. Ask Hal if cavitation can result in >electron condensations. I believe it can and that electron condensations are >the key to the process. we are very interested still in charge clusters. > Crissitan Ismert of CETI tells me that they have >just detected signs of superconductivity in the beads. can you tell me what the signs were? Meissner effects (i.e. levitating beads)? >Scott can you do me a favor. Hal has copies of Jennison's work >I hate to ask him because he is so busy. Could you please send me a copy? Sure...I'll get it MOnday and send it off. My question still stands, Frank. Why would NASA be interested in funding another investigation into Potapov's stuff when he couldn't make it work at LANL? Do you accept the strong possibility that Dr. P does NOT have...has never had...an o-u invention? Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 20:10:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA19147; Sat, 17 May 1997 20:09:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:09:03 -0700 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:08:48 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: Greg Watson cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers In-Reply-To: <337CE92D.3449 microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"B72q32.0.5h4.EBdVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > Hi All, > > I have just finished the first version of my OU toy. > > It is a closed loop system. Just to clarify: you mean you just finished building it and you hope it will work? Or do you mean that you've just managed to create another *working* closed-loop device, one which is based some other patent?! If the latter, then this is more astounding news! .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 20:21:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA19153; Sat, 17 May 1997 20:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:12:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970307.152217.8958.0.tv juno.com> References: <337E186D.1C6C math.ucla.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:10:13 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? Resent-Message-ID: <"GLn9C.0.Ah4._DdVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tim - > However, if it works by organizing > thermal or quantum fluctuations... I wonder if that "counts" with most people as OU if that's the case. It seems like it would, since it looks like a 2nd law violation. Heck, I'd take it either way, as long as it worked! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 20:47:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA23402; Sat, 17 May 1997 20:44:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:44:51 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:44:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970517233421_484905075 emout04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, gwatson@microtronics.com.au cc: newman-l emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers Resent-Message-ID: <"bClO-3.0.Uj5.oidVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg, Before you have everyone follow you in a replication attempt, IMO it is very important for you to build a second one yourself, using completely new parts to build the second (different magnets, ball, etc.). There is always that chance that in your first version you just stumbled serendipitously on magnets, balls etc. that just happened to have some special flaws or whatever that turn out to be key, unknown even to you. I know I'll feel better when you say that you yourself have had success with a completely independent replica. (This concern was brought to my attention by my son, Brendan, an engineering student, who is also going to follow your recipe.) Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 20:48:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA21463; Sat, 17 May 1997 20:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705180344.XAA02496 mail3.voicenet.com> To: vortex email list server Subject: Fwd: Re: Simple OU device - needs double checking Date: Sat, 17 May 97 23:39:51 -0500 From: Eric Krieg -voicenet X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v3.1a Resent-Message-ID: <"ozeb.0.HF5.iedVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Orffyreus' Wheel was touted as a free energy machine and fooled a number of people as long as it evaded close examination. I offer the history of many other bogus PM and free energy machines at: http://www.voicenet.com/~eric/dennis4.html considering this long history of lame promises, I recommend discretion and independent validation to avoid embarrassment. Once you can put out 1 .5KW, consider stopping by to win my $2000+ prize for proof of free energy. Details for it and other prizes are at: http://www.voicenet. com/~eric/freetest.html Eric Krieg -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Thursday, 15-May-97 07:55 PM From: Barry Merriman \ Internet: (barry julia.math.ucla.edu) To: Jay Olson \ Internet: (vortex-l eskimo.com) Subject: Re: Simple OU device Michael Randall wrote: > > do a demonstration with your > local university physics department ... > Once this gets out on the UPI/API newswire you will probably be famous > overnight. All the enthusiasts here seem to presume that Mr. Watson has discovered an ``overunity'' device. Allow me to point out that in science you are guilty until proven innocent---i.e., the more natural presumption is that the device works via known principles which are simply not evident to Mr. Watson. The is a particularly natural starting point for investigation given that their is no accepted experiment or theory that suggests such overunity devices are possible. In other words, instead of treating the occasion as if it were, say, the landing a big game fish---"Bravo, old chap, well done! Have it stuffed and mounted!"---we should rather treat it as a challenge to our understanding and endeavor to figure out what is going on. Of course, only Mr. Watson can allow such an investigation, and it does not seem forthcoming... > As far as I know your discovery is the first of its kind since > the Orffyreus' Wheel of the 1700's. The first of _what_ kind? And what is O's Wheel? > Do you think that with the help of the millions of > engineers worldwide this could happen sooner? > I think with the help of one physicist the issues would make themselves clear in short order. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- eric voicenet.com http://www.voicenet.com/~eric ------- FORWARD, End of original message ------- eric voicenet.com http://www.voicenet.com/~eric From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 21:05:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA25590; Sat, 17 May 1997 20:59:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:59:40 -0700 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:59:29 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers In-Reply-To: <337D7202.60FEDCF7 microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"VMmmt3.0.mF6.hwdVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > I have been told Vortex was for CF. Many have told me my magnetic > discussions don't belong on Vortex. So Freenrg it is. VORTEX-L is semi-officially for water-vortex o/u and CF discussions at the professional level. Also for the testing of o/u device claims. Vortex is semi-private; it's open to all, but unadvertized. New members mostly come from sci.physics.fusion forum, or added by invitation and by word of mouth via current members. FREENRG-L is for amateur/hobbyist experiments in o/u. It is totally public, intended for everyone, not for a particular group of professionals. The magnetic discussions until recently were theory, and I think this was the source of the complaints. Testing of actual devices is another story, and is totally appropriate for Vortex. If you want your device to be professionally reviewed, Vortex is the best place. But if you want to guide a group in building a replica of your device, I'd say that Freenrg (or maybe Neotech) is the way to go. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 21:35:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA31662; Sat, 17 May 1997 21:32:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 21:32:41 -0700 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 21:32:35 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"PGbY.0.ek7.ePeVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 17 May 1997, John Logajan wrote: > William Beaty worte: > > "Round one" must be awarded to the o/u supporters. Refusing to do > > this would be a form of cheating, of Goalpost Moving. > > If I CLAIM I can knock out Mike Tyson, am I awarded the first round? I don't understand. Do you mean that Greg is probably lying about having achived closed-loop operation? I see him as claiming that he DID knock out Mike Tyson, a different thing entirely. > Let's put this fight in historical perspective. > > O/U has entered the ring many times in the history of mankind, > each time with bigger and bolder claims of superiority, and each > time it has been knocked out of the ring on its keister. And each > time it picks its bloodied beaten self up and declares it'll be back > -- that the fight was rigged, that there is no justice, that revenge > will be its eventual reward. Yes, but how many of those claims included closed-loop operation and no obvious fuel sources (such as batteries, electrolysis, electric pumps, etc?) And how many were 2nd hand rumors, rather than the primary claimant writing directly to a forum, saying that their device was sitting right there in constant operation? Greg's device doesn't have the wishful thinking, measurement error, or pathological science features of most o/u claims. > Now comes O/U, claiming yet again to be contender and not pretender, > and we're already awarding him rounds? Puleeze! I see that I've assumed that others have similar reasoning to my own. My mistake. Here's mine: If I hear about an o/u claim, I immediately assume that there's a 95% chance that it is caused by measurement errors, misinterpretation of statistics, or wishful thinking (e.g. "my theory is so good that I just KNOW my o/u device will work, as soon as I get this last little bug out.") The last 5% I put down to new but non-o/u phenomena (e.g. extraction of energy from permanent magnets.) The remaining (approx 0%) I ascribe to real o/u. I say "if you want people to sit up and take notice, build a closed-loop device." If someone manages to produce a closed-loop device which doesn't use batteries or obvious chemistry as part of its mechanism, then I see this as winning multiple rounds! I thought I was safe in awarding Greg the first round, meaning, probability of an o/u discovery has increased by 10%. Knocking out the "oops, measurement error" stuff is of staggering significance. Come on. A BUNCH OF MAGNETS THAT POWERS MACROSCOPIC MOTION FOR MANY HOURS? > I have an open mind, but I hope not an empty mind. Given O/U's track > record, I'll wait until round 12, or a TKO leaves one of the fighters > standing and one being counted out, before I'll switch my betting > strategy. Are you assuming hoax then? I admit it, I'm a trivially easy mark for a practical joke. I will viciously defend my right to trust people as long as money is not concerned. So far I've not been close to any o/u hoaxes not involving investment scams, all I've seen is instance upon instance of well-meaning people who are the victims of either pathological science or inventor's disease. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 22:42:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA10978; Sat, 17 May 1997 22:40:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:40:23 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <337E963F.30B2 math.ucla.edu> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:40:15 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oV0mT1.0.Mh2.6PfVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > If you want your device to be professionally reviewed, Vortex is > the best place. But if you want to guide a group in building > a replica of your device, I'd say that Freenrg (or maybe Neotech) > is the way to go. > Personally, I vote for Greg Watson to post his plans here (in addition to freenrg-l). Anyone who claims to have a working "O/U" device, and has not already been discredited (note this latter criterion excludes certain prominent folks :-) should feel encouraged to present it here in order to get some contact with sympathetic scientists. (Yes, believe it or not, I'm a sympathetic scientist :-). As Bill said, theory-based schemes are another matter, and I really don't want to hear anyones pet theories on how to produce OU. Unless a theory makes some connection with understood nuclear physics, or perhaps ZPE. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 23:02:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA13754; Sat, 17 May 1997 22:59:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:59:25 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <337E9AB6.6FCF math.ucla.edu> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:59:18 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? References: <970517213056_100433.1541_BHG76-2 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"svJ0V1.0.qM3.ygfVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > > > The way to test this theory would be to replace the magnets in the > > system with DC electromagnets, so that there is no energy > > available from inreasing the magnetization of the system. If the > > system does not work when configured with all electromagnets, it > > is almost certainly tapping the energy of magnetization. > > Sorry, that's nonsense. You can't change the basics of a device and > then claim you've proven *anything* about the device. I didn't say it would prove, it would simply strongly suggest it. On the other hand, if it worked as well with electromag's, it would prove magnetization was not an issue. Also, I should be more precise and point out that a ferromagnetic material the energy of this system is a little more complicated than simply magnetizing or demagnetizing. The global minimum energy is the totally demagnetized state, but local min can result from annealing of the magnetic domains, which is more what I had in mind. One could also perhaps imagine that the system functions as a magnetic heat pump, with field fluctuations leading to magnetic cooling, and then absorbing heat from the surrounding air. This would be the magnetic version of the dunking bird toy. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 23:05:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA04863; Sat, 17 May 1997 22:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970517223236.00a8be0c mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:32:37 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8C3j8.0.uB1.rIfVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Looks like you're stirring them up :) >John Logajan wrote: >> William Beaty worte: >> > "Round one" must be awarded to the o/u supporters. Refusing to do >> > this would be a form of cheating, of Goalpost Moving. >> >> If I CLAIM I can knock out Mike Tyson, am I awarded the first round? > >I don't understand. Do you mean that Greg is probably lying about having >achived closed-loop operation? I see him as claiming that he DID knock >out Mike Tyson, a different thing entirely. > >If Greg Watson is lying than it can be for several reasons: > >1. To extort money from investors >2. To gain attention and feed his ego >3. To avoid admitting that he was unsuccesful in "closing the loop " >4. To mislead/discourage us on vortex-l or freenrg-l for debunking purposes >5. To mislead/discourage us on vortex-l or freenrg-l for distraction >purposes (ie. the TED device) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 23:16:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA15109; Sat, 17 May 1997 23:15:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:15:07 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC6318.3C1E39B0 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: o/u ramp is not o/u? Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:15:38 -0700 Encoding: 40 TEXT, 56 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"IGEDF3.0.wh3.gvfVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Saturday, May 17, 1997 10:32 PM Epitaxy wrote: >Looks like you're stirring them up :) >>John Logajan wrote: >>> William Beaty worte: >>> > "Round one" must be awarded to the o/u supporters. Refusing to do >>> > this would be a form of cheating, of Goalpost Moving. >>> >>> If I CLAIM I can knock out Mike Tyson, am I awarded the first round? >> >>I don't understand. Do you mean that Greg is probably lying about having >>achived closed-loop operation? I see him as claiming that he DID knock >>out Mike Tyson, a different thing entirely. >> >>If Greg Watson is lying than it can be for several reasons: >> >>1. To extort money from investors >>2. To gain attention and feed his ego >>3. To avoid admitting that he was unsuccesful in "closing the loop " >>4. To mislead/discourage us on vortex-l or freenrg-l for debunking purposes >>5. To mislead/discourage us on vortex-l or freenrg-l for distraction >>purposes (ie. the TED device) (BTW, where'd this last come from? I didn't receive that post) and etcetera... Good grief, gang, where's the substance in this thread? The recent wave of humor had more technical basis. What's been spewing lately sounds like Frederick's Hot F.A.R.T. unit got loose and sprung a leak! With all due respect (and I truly do have a *great* deal of respect for most of the participants here), how about putting a cork in it until Greg posts his instructions? Then you can build the thing or not. If nobody can get it to work, *then* start the critique. Your sometimes-humble uncredentialed amateur, Dan Quickert begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(B<&`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0! `(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! 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M`#=!1V\'0*,SH#'A36]V*-$N+DD%+DE)-U!)($-,011)33K!8P.1:VYO-&-K M,6!U.+$GTE1Y_G,"(!\`+T$ZT#)',P$<,.\1X 5 `V Q,3\N1RY'.M#Y-0!N M)P5 ,3$SX0&0,4#]-!%$,M H$3&P+X #H"D0OQZ0.# 8`"CP-A$>`6(!H/YL M'T!#0"C2`: \$A' ./+7+D<`T#8`=C*18Q>0$?#T9"T7D&\I<$8P!) WH?T" M(#\A4#K0$? G\#8`*4#N800 1: +<&THU$(Q,P'X1$E$.Z0N1SP?-/ &D/YF M!) )\ 5 -?$HX4NA**"]%I!Y.3 _>#@A0G)7'I#_/,%"HD-T0A%.P05 .W(R M$?\V\40-&![`R!5X2)%HBC5)[!& M(B)-+D/U]/8%0$`'1&D,\> M4$;!+D=A1B H") T$/DR\E1%22 -L#CP6K IID, ?20U*$)45Q\`=_L6@!@` M)SW"3N)'P$_1`W#_/ $#84;P0 %8T$!"& !:L/]%44($.((IK5:R$@!:L#/1 M_&$N<$ IO#A !'!5L B!_F8?`"V -])K) 0 ,O(S$%D+\M,&BP4/%#$ "0 M- )70B'_,$-!/, Q,2>E1A !!G$;.^!RP4@> M('IP+D$N^%(N5#00,3!/P5>0!4#O1A$1\%:C>-!R,3!#L2>P>2^ :R$NX2D0 M,C 6H63O"E!1$7C1'E$H5K(ZT&80WS9 'T U`$0B-K(J"<$>D/XJ8)%0\3=! M?P908 1@,>'O-T$R\B1A*)!C!2 `<$Z0RTC!& `I'P!H;P?@0]3_84!91#;0 M!:$[\%7A3\$Q,/\HD , 0F,X@H0A-A$+@&8!>UJ01K)S=+,#H$&"3_-UWP,0 M/<1+Y 6Q.\!T-! ZH?L[P ; 9!] .W)CL 5 3\&K,L$OT6L?`"HI$6Z!4-] MT5-A,O(%`2B0<0I0<&V^60AA>;$' "B0!X$M=@'_`F!CP7.0>I),40= ,I$O M0*MY80AP+"F\1 .148FP^SO !)!T*Y\CWR3M%V `0 N55A`#T``0````4` 4``!213H ``````,`#33]-P``CSAC ` end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 23:22:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA15541; Sat, 17 May 1997 23:20:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:20:51 -0700 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:20:44 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? In-Reply-To: <337E186D.1C6C math.ucla.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"YIbo41.0.lo3.2_fVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Barry Merriman wrote: > William Beaty wrote: > > > > NO MOVING OF GOALPOSTS > > > > "Round one" must be awarded to the o/u supporters. > > ...there are other, less important "rounds" to be fought. > > ...the first and most major round has been fought and won. > > > > I beg to disagree. The most important round is the last one, > in which it is demonstrated that the device is not tapping known > energy sources. I see where you're coming from. The last round is the straw that breaks the skeptic's back. But speaking as one who assumes that unknown energy sources exist, I see the elimination of psychological factors as the biggest step forward. > After all, my little dunking bird toy is > a "closed loop" system as well, in that it will run for > many days with no obvious change in its state. Its inventor could have > easily proferred it up as an O/U device. But then it would be a hoax. I'm intentionally ignoring the possibility of a hoax. If I did not, then maybe I'd say that the biggest step forward would be the inspection of the closed loop device by an expert skeptic. And the dipping bird has a suspicious feature: a known energy source, evaporative cooling. If the extraction of energy from permanent magnets is a well-known effect, I've never heard tell of it. Is there an obvious way to build, say, a coil/oscillator circuit which puts out excess energy while demagnetizing a permanent magnet? > If I had to make a wild guess, I might think that each time the > ball went through the black box, the resulting perturbation > in the magnetic field led to a relaxation of the ferromagnet > to a more magnetized state (lower energy), which expelled the > ball at a slightly higher energy. I have to ask the obvious question: isn't that backwards? Doesn't it take energy input to align the domains? If it didn't, wouldn't ferromagnets spontaneously go to saturation? > The way to test this theory would be to replace the magnets in > the system with DC electromagnets, so that there is no energy > available from inreasing the magnetization of the system. If the > system does not work when configured with all electromagnets, > it is almost certainly tapping the energy of magnetization. ...unless the anomaly requires permanent magnets for some reason. Since stored energy is proportional to magnetization, wouldn't it cover more possibilities to simply measure the field and watch for net changes? Perhaps use minimum magnet mass so the stored energy is small to begin? > Another way to test this theory would be to fully magnetize the > ferromagnetics involved---i.e. expose them to a strong magnetic > field, and heat them to the Curie point of the material, then > cool them slowly to get a single magnetic domain. The above theory > would predict that such a fully magnetized material could not > power this system. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 17 23:50:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA19046; Sat, 17 May 1997 23:48:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:48:51 -0700 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:48:45 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: o/u ramp: eliminate hoax In-Reply-To: <337D6DE1.667792DA microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"qeCSj.0.Wf4.IPgVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A On Sat, 17 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > William Beaty wrote: > > > 9. (For the traditionalists among us, I could include "device is a hoax".) > > But > I won't!) > > But I did. > > The "Simple OU Toy" will solve that! (actually, I was referring to the infamous Lord Kelvin authoritive pronouncement regarding X-rays. He also said something similar regarding powered flight.) Here's a method to rapidly eliminate the possibility of a hoax: send a piece of working hardware to Barry Merriam. Do what is necessary; get him to sign an NDA, or rather than your patent-pending invention, send your "o/u toy" instead. If Barry drops the iron ball into the system and it runs for at least a few minutes, then we can all scratch "hoax" off our list immediately. I realize that we have no reason to expect Greg to put in the time and effort needed to do this, since he has no need to rapidly convince anyone. I wouldn't mind putting up some bucks to cover cost of shipping, labor, ambition, etc., just to see the "hoax" eliminated quickly. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 00:08:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA14158; Sat, 17 May 1997 23:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 02:50:23 -0400 (EDT) From: lewis edward To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: additional plasmoid pictures In-Reply-To: <970517142332_2085846690 emout17.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mC3v52.0.8T3.lRgVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Additional plasmoid pictures can be found at www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4946/index.html The article contains many pictures of plasmoid marks on electrolysis cells. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 00:14:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA21123; Sun, 18 May 1997 00:10:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:10:05 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:07:31 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: o/u ramp is not o/u? Resent-Message-ID: <"9mq4A1.0.w95.BjgVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:15 PM 5/17/97, Dan Quickert wrote: [snip] > >Good grief, gang, where's the substance in this thread? The recent wave of >humor had more technical basis. What's been spewing lately sounds like >Frederick's Hot F.A.R.T. unit got loose and sprung a leak! With all due >respect (and I truly do have a *great* deal of respect for most of the >participants here), how about putting a cork in it until Greg posts his >instructions? Then you can build the thing or not. If nobody can get it to >work, *then* start the critique. > >Your sometimes-humble uncredentialed amateur, > >Dan Quickert > To Dan and Greg about Frederick's F.A.R.T. method, I say it's alimentary my dear Watson. 8^) All joking aside, as difficult as that is for me to do, I would like to say that I am eager to see Greg's plans for his device. I'll even re-subscibe to freenrg if necessary, but it would be much more convenient to view it on a web page if someone would provide the space. I was about ready to drop all newslist access for the summer to work on my house, but I would like to see a genuine pm device. However, maybe I am just dense, but I don't see that Greg has actually said he will post the plans for a closed loop device that he has actually tested and proven to work in a loop. Maybe I missed something? He said he will give plans for someone else's device if I read correctly. Does this mean patent 4,215,330 or some variation? Has the new device has been tested and it has run in a loop for hours? Or maybe you are talking about disclosing your original device Greg? I also get the impression this will take some weeks? I'd appreciate further clarification. Your less humble and less credentialed amateur, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 00:26:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA15357; Sun, 18 May 1997 00:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:07:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? Resent-Message-ID: <"JxYeG3.0.tl3.ujgVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:59 PM 5/17/97, Barry Merriman wrote: [snip] > >One could also perhaps imagine that the system functions as a magnetic >heat pump, with field fluctuations leading to magnetic cooling, >and then absorbing heat from the surrounding air. This would >be the magnetic version of the dunking bird toy. >-- >Barry Merriman In the above case the Thermos test should show no temperature difference - a classic type II device. It's a quick cheap and effective test. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 00:39:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA15948; Sun, 18 May 1997 00:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:19:43 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: o/u ramp: eliminate hoax Resent-Message-ID: <"4We4u3.0.5v3.MvgVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:48 PM 5/17/97, William Beaty wrote: [snip] > >I realize that we have no reason to expect Greg to put in the time and >effort needed to do this, since he has no need to rapidly convince anyone. >I wouldn't mind putting up some bucks to cover cost of shipping, labor, >ambition, etc., just to see the "hoax" eliminated quickly. > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 I came to internet too late to contribute to Tom Drouge's trip, but am happy to have the opportunity to offer to contribute $50 to such a similar evaluation for one of Greg Watson's devices, maybe more depending on need, no strings attached. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 00:50:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA16504; Sun, 18 May 1997 00:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <337EB0B1.578C math.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:33:05 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fUGSB3.0.o14.o3hVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > > If I had to make a wild guess, I might think that each time the > > ball went through the black box, the resulting perturbation > > in the magnetic field led to a relaxation of the ferromagnet > > to a more magnetized state (lower energy), which expelled the > > ball at a slightly higher energy. > > I have to ask the obvious question: isn't that backwards? > Doesn't it take energy input to align the domains? Well, on the coarsest scale, yes. The self-energy of a magnetized system increases as its magnetization increases. However, one a finer scale there is some energy to be gained from domain alignment---for an extreme case, imagine all atoms perfectly aligned, except one which is pointing in the opposite direction. It would like to flip its dipole around and align with the rest of the bulk. As for spontaneous magnetization, these systems have many local energy minima corresponding to microstructure in the spin domains. It takes a small supply of external energy to allow them to anneal to lower energy domain configurations, otherwise they are stuck. (Aside: Also, for systems where their is some surface tension between different magnetic domains (i.e. the system energy is not soley magnetic), the global energy minimizer tends to be a banded domain structure, rather than a fully disordered domain structure, for example.) So, its true one could extract energy by de-magnetizing the material. But this is such a major change in configuration that it seems unlikely. I would think the more accessible configuration changes---i.e. those whith activation energy comparable to that delivered by perturbing presence of the ball---would corresspong to very timy domains falling into tighter alignement with the bulk field at some microscale. But, I could be wrong about that, its just a guess about the nature of the material. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 00:57:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA16811; Sun, 18 May 1997 00:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:38:19 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: papers please! Resent-Message-ID: <"4RJoz2.0.a64.mAhVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 9:10 AM 5/15/97, Remi Cornwall wrote: >Ah come on! > >We're not telepathic. Someone was asking for a summary of all the >research about a month ago and was told to go away and do his homework. > >If nobody will do it, I will. I'll set up an ftp/web server where you can >drop who you are, group (ou or pm) and your relevant good publications. >All it has to be is a text file with anonymous permissions that anyone >can edit - provided there are no anti-social types. > [snip] >Sifting the static, >Remi. This was a pretty good idea Remi. I am surprized no one has responded. Personally I think it migh be a good idea to have at least two directories. One for ftp, and another that is read only. You could periodically copy from the accessable area to the read only area, and only permit changes or deletions from the read only area based on the author's request. Are you talking publication lists, or actual publications? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 05:04:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA26917; Sun, 18 May 1997 04:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 04:47:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: o/u ramp is not o/u? Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:45:57 +0000 Message-ID: <19970518114555.AAA6885 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"aOety.0.Va6.GnkVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: >What's been spewing lately sounds like Frederick's Hot F.A.R.T. unit >got loose and sprung a leak! Dan, the Farm Animal Refuse Technology (F.A.R.T.) is by definition and unquestionably an over-unity, (o/u) methodology with multi-gigawatt power production capability. It has been on-line producing megawatts for several years. This is state-of the-'art technology that can be used to power jumbo jets. However, it's use as a fuel for this purpose precludes having any room for cargo and/or passengers. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 08:47:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA06795; Sun, 18 May 1997 08:42:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 08:42:14 -0700 Message-ID: <337DC5AA.733C keelynet.com> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 07:50:18 -0700 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Casimir force repulsive References: <135AB181B76 hickory.csrv.uidaho.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5lkU43.0._e1.HDoVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Jay! To the best of my knowledge, the current leading contender in tapping zpe by use of Casimir forces is Wim Lambertsen out in Florida. Several years ago, he presented a paper at an ISNE conference, (next ISNE is this following week in Denver). A workshop was held later and he passed around a couple of these WIN cells for examination. They appeared to be two thin ceramic disks with RTV (elastic silicone caulk) that looked to have ground up quartz crystals mixed in with the caulk. Groups of these cells were stacked into columns with wires on either end to pull off power. The idea as I understand it was that the aether/zpe fluctuations would cause varying and highly abrupt physical pressures to squeeze the crystals, producing a piezoelectric voltage. Lambertsen used 100W light bulbs in his early experiments but said the tungsten filmanets in the bulbs kept popping as a result of these high intensity zpe fluctuations. For that reason, he began using sodium lamps which would easily absorb the fluctuations and show them as the light output became brighter or dimmer. At that time, he was driving 5 sodium lamps, but I don't recall how many of these solid state cell columns this required. He was also working on the patent application and I don't know if he got it granted or not (now nearly 4 years later). Hope this helps. Jay Olson wrote: > > OK, this is from [ Am. J. Phys., Vol. 65, No. 5, May 1997] by V. > Hushwater. > > REPULSIVE CASIMIR FORCE AS A RESULT OF VACUUM RADIATION PRESSURE > > "We study the Casimir force between a perfectly conducting and an > infinitely permeable plate with the radiation pressure approach, used > by earlier authors for the case of two perfectly conducting plates. > This method illustrates in a very simple context how a repulsive > force arises as a consequence of the redistribution of the > vacuum-field modes corresponding to specific boundary conditions. We > show that the result is independent of the cutoff function used for > regularization." > > Interesting stuff!!! > JAY OLSON -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 10:04:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA25753; Sun, 18 May 1997 09:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:42:24 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 12:40:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970518124042_1415399391 emout16.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com Subject: symmetry Resent-Message-ID: <"GcFjt2.0.JI6.e5pVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Puthoff writes <> > >I like this paper somewhat, even though it does, as the rest of your post >says, imply that the structure of the electron is internal and therefore does >not need external ZPE. However, he needs boundaries for his electron to >cause the internal wave structure to be reflected back and forth. Boundariestes Hal do you see what Jennison has said....REFLECTION...reflection produces a force P= 2E/c Force produces gravity newtons/KG = G(dp/dt)/ccr It's a natural symmetry that has the same formulation as the electromagnetic but employes different constants. That's what I've been saying all along. I've worked out many details on my book on a disk. Dr. John from WPAFB doens't understand this..I think its simple and important. If we compare the E/M symmetry to the force/gravity symmetry we can find out what differs and what stays the same. We can assume that the same differences and similarities apply to the nuclear spin orbit force. That's what I have done and am doing. I believe its important. Frank Znidarsic fznidarsic aol.com 481 Boyer St. http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html Johnstown, Pa. 15906 Automatic links: Home_Page Send_E-mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 10:57:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA29546; Sun, 18 May 1997 10:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:07:22 -0700 (PDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 09:57:46 PST Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? Message-ID: <19970308.095748.8886.0.tv juno.com> References: <337E186D.1C6C math.ucla.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-20 From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan) Resent-Message-ID: <"q8_OX2.0.aD7.8TpVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Berry, If the magnets that attract the ball onto the "accelerator ramp" become stronger each time the ball enters, wouldn't this just require more energy for the ball to exit the accelerator ???? Tim > >If I had to make a wild guess, I might think that each time the >ball went through the black box, the resulting perturbation >in the magnetic field led to a relaxation of the ferromagnet >to a more magnetized state (lower energy), which expelled the >ball at a slightly higher energy. > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 11:04:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA00648; Sun, 18 May 1997 10:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: 18 May 97 12:44:08 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Recommend web for publishing Message-ID: <970518164408_72240.1256_EHB58-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"w7TBw3.0.2A.7apVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Greg Watson has discussed publishing details about his device here on Vortex or in the Freeeng list. I recommend a third option: publish an outline here, and full details on a world wide web page. I suggest he should simply publish the patent application, after he submits it, along with photographs and supplemental information. Web pages have many advantages: 1. They are static; the information does not scroll away. 2. They are structured. They allow organization, cross referencing, fonts, superscripts, subscripts and the like. 3. They allow diagrams, tables, photographs, spreadsheets, and so on. If Greg does not have a scanner he can send photos to someone who does, who can then e-mail him .jpg images. The only drawback to this approach is that some people may not have access to the web. They can contact Greg for an e-mail copy. If Greg does not have a web page someone else can lend him some space on theirs. Mine, unfortunately, is getting a little crowded. Compuserve is very stingy with memory. Maybe Chris Tinsley could bite the bullet and learn how to access and use the web. In the last year we have dragged him kicking and screaming into the era of 80486 processors, 100 MB disks, color monitors and even, believe it or not, Microsoft Windows. My web page is mostly devoted to an advertisement for Infinite Energy magazine. (I guess it is not fashionable to call it an "advertisement." Make that: "information and order forms for . . .") The address is http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JedRothwell. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 11:54:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA17882; Sun, 18 May 1997 11:51:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:51:53 -0700 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:52:02 -0700 Message-Id: <199705181852.LAA10057 netserve.kfalls.net> X-Sender: me2 kfalls.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ME2 KFALLS.NET (Don Evans) Subject: Re: Recommend web for publishing Resent-Message-ID: <"XZ_9n3.0.KN4.8_qVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: we are an isp in the states and can furnish all that is needed if interested contact me privatly would be happy to furnish free of charge web hosting for a limited number of these projects Don >To: Vortex > >Greg Watson has discussed publishing details about his device here on Vortex >or in the Freeeng list. I recommend a third option: publish an outline here, >and full details on a world wide web page. I suggest he should simply publish >the patent application, after he submits it, along with photographs and >supplemental information. Web pages have many advantages: > >1. They are static; the information does not scroll away. > >2. They are structured. They allow organization, cross referencing, fonts, >superscripts, subscripts and the like. > >3. They allow diagrams, tables, photographs, spreadsheets, and so on. If Greg >does not have a scanner he can send photos to someone who does, who can then >e-mail him .jpg images. > >The only drawback to this approach is that some people may not have access to >the web. They can contact Greg for an e-mail copy. If Greg does not have a web >page someone else can lend him some space on theirs. Mine, unfortunately, is >getting a little crowded. Compuserve is very stingy with memory. Maybe Chris >Tinsley could bite the bullet and learn how to access and use the web. In the >last year we have dragged him kicking and screaming into the era of 80486 >processors, 100 MB disks, color monitors and even, believe it or not, >Microsoft Windows. > > >My web page is mostly devoted to an advertisement for Infinite Energy >magazine. (I guess it is not fashionable to call it an "advertisement." Make >that: "information and order forms for . . .") The address is >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JedRothwell. > >- Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 11:55:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA18174; Sun, 18 May 1997 11:53:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:53:23 -0700 Date: 18 May 97 14:50:33 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Recommend web for publishing Message-ID: <970518185032_100433.1541_BHG58-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"9YJqF.0.uR4.Y0rVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, > Maybe Chris Tinsley could bite the bullet and learn how to access > and use the web. In the last year we have dragged him kicking and > screaming into the era of 80486 processors, 100 MB disks, color > monitors and even, believe it or not, Microsoft Windows. Bloody cheek. It's a 1.1Gb disk, and I do not use Windoze unless I have to. Imagine doing data logging under Windoze! "Application caused general protection error" and you'd lose the whole damned thing. As to Web, I dislike it but see it as a necessity - I can and do use it, sparingly. Chris (Jed is obviously narked by the stiff email I sent him earlier...haha) +++ >From Soo (while CT wasn't looking) - He's a typical old hacker, like Jed, (terrified of new technology). It took me ages coaxing him down from the chair he jumped onto when he saw me unpacking a box marked "Mouse". From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 14:47:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA02297; Sun, 18 May 1997 10:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:14:24 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: from "William Beaty" at May 17, 97 09:32:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"r9CpW1.0.kZ.TnpVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty worte: > > > "Round one" must be awarded to the o/u supporters. Refusing to do > > > this would be a form of cheating, of Goalpost Moving. > > > > If I CLAIM I can knock out Mike Tyson, am I awarded the first round? > > I don't understand. Do you mean that Greg is probably lying about having > achived closed-loop operation? I see him as claiming that he DID knock > out Mike Tyson, a different thing entirely. Hmm, I think we have metaphor rot. Why would you only assign round one to Greg if he claimed to have already TKO'd Tyson? As to the issue of lying, Greg could be wrong for a number of reasons including but not limited to lying. In fact, there is no reason to conclude he is wrong. The more interesting question is whether one should conclude he is right. Mere claims are insufficient upon which to build much confidence, given the extensive history of O/U announcements. > If someone manages to produce a closed-loop device which doesn't use > batteries or obvious chemistry as part of its mechanism, then I see this > as winning multiple rounds! Unfortunately, that means the more brazen the claim, the more apt you are to accept it. I think claims of any sort (especially in the O/U field) are meaningless in and of themselves. It is always up to independent replication to sort the wheat from the chaff. O/U has so far turned out to be a chaff only plant. As a personal note, I am not unsympathetic to O/U researchers. About 20 years ago, or so, I myself "discovered" a theoretical method to produce reactionless thrust. It took me several months to feret out my trivial mathematical mistake. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 14:50:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA02544; Sun, 18 May 1997 14:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <337DB30B.5F34A025 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:30:51 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Recommend web for publishing X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970518164408_72240.1256_EHB58-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VWMan3.0.Wd.iMtVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > To: Vortex > > Greg Watson has discussed publishing details about his device here on Vortex > or in the Freeeng list. I recommend a third option: publish an outline here, > and full details on a world wide web page. I suggest he should simply publish > the patent application, after he submits it, along with photographs and > supplemental information. Web pages have many advantages: I think the publishing will appropriate on the second stage. The first stage aimed to replication of the device and also aimed to further developments may not be tolerant to all kind of criticism and speculation. It is essentially a beginning of a scientific research. Early publishing may premature the research and may expose researchers to intense and non-constructive criticism. World Wide Publishing means automatically agree to accepting world wide feedback and reactions. It must be carefully plan the whole project to not to risk anything, reduce the difficulties and take advantage of the team work. I will try to outline the project. (steps may not be in the order) I will name "OU" as any phenomenon exhibiting energy output which not be explained with the conventional physics and common knowledge. Note: Although the OU effect of G.W is not yet confirmed by third parties, I suppose it is true in this context. 1. Discovering the OU ideas: DONE. But not forget the this step is repeated in the history. 2. Discovering an OU effect: DONE. Discovered by G.W. (Our hypothesis does not include others discoveries) G.W. discovered the effect before closing the loop. 3. Building a device to exhibit clearly OU effect: DONE. By G.W. 4. Patenting procedures: UNKNOWN 5. Commercialization of the proofing device: UNKNOWN 6. Confirmation of the OU effect by third parties: SKIPPED 7. Confidential replication of the experiment by third parties: SKIPPED 8. Making the data available to third parties to observe to OU effect: PLANNED 9. Non Confidential replication of the experiment by third parties: PLANNED 10. Publishing the experimental data 11. Attempting to take attention of scientific organizations and their members . 12. Investigating the principle of the effect by independent scientists and scientific organizations. 13. Building theories about the effect. 14. Experimental confirmation of theories. 15. Research for building devices for getting useable power. 16. Research for other technological possibilities the theory may offer. For example if the effect is based on violation of 2’th law of the TD, The effect not be simple used for generating energy but cooling and extracting water from atmosphere in any part of the world.. If the theory postulate non-minimal gravitational coupling (gravity-EM interaction) The effect may be used for space propulsion. Actually it may easily check this effect from the position of the ramps: If the ramp located where the ball is accelerated or decelerated by the magnetic forces may such a magnetic interaction may weaken the gravity and allowing the kinetic energy of the ball be less consumed while climbing the ramp. 17. Widening the group which actively support the OU effect. 18. Making public demonstrations. 19. Getting support from scientific communities and supporting them. 20. Getting support from general communities. 21. Cooperating with other inventors and supporters of OU. 22. Building foundations and societies for supporting R&D aimed wide usage of free energy. 22. ? Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 15:37:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA10314; Sun, 18 May 1997 15:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970518151804.00b989f4 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:18:05 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Reactionless thrust Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"GBMde3.0.4X2.K1uVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Interesting... what was your idea and the mistake you've made ? At 11:14 AM 5/18/97 -0500, you wrote: >As a personal note, I am not unsympathetic to O/U researchers. About >20 years ago, or so, I myself "discovered" a theoretical method to >produce reactionless thrust. It took me several months to feret out >my trivial mathematical mistake. > >-- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 15:58:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA11794; Sun, 18 May 1997 15:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:37:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Jason Aldo To: William Beaty Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Stationary armature generator In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"dOBkr1.0.Cu2.9CuVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello Freaks I have just finished building testing a stationary armature generator based on John Ecklin's Permanent Magnet Motion Conversion Device. It a flux switch alternator using magnetically conductive rods that rotate in- between ceramic magnets and a stationary armature. According to the test results, which I will post if anyone is interested, varying the load on the generator does not significantly alter the power required for the drive motor. If I am interpreting the data correctly, this generator avoids Lenz's law. I had an assistant professor and an electronics technician at Ohio University (O.U.) test it and they confirmed my results. It is not O.U. as yet. but according to the test data, it could be if designed right. Right now, it takes about 3.4 times more electricity to turn the drive motor than is produced by the generator. Pete Aldo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 18:36:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA30341; Sun, 18 May 1997 18:34:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:34:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Reactionless thrust To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:33:58 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970518151804.00b989f4 mail.localaccess.com> from "Epitaxy" at May 18, 97 03:18:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nfNRQ2.0.fP7.CuwVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Epitaxy wrote: > Logajan wrote: > >As a personal note, I am not unsympathetic to O/U researchers. About > >20 years ago, or so, I myself "discovered" a theoretical method to > >produce reactionless thrust. It took me several months to feret out > >my trivial mathematical mistake. > Interesting... what was your idea and the mistake you've made ? I wouldn't care to elaborate. "Trivial" was being kind. :-) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 20:49:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA24285; Sun, 18 May 1997 20:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705190334.XAA18784 mail3.voicenet.com> To: vortex email list server Subject: Re: o/u ramp - profiles of free energy inventors Date: Sun, 18 May 97 23:30:12 -0500 From: Eric Krieg -voicenet X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v3.1a Resent-Message-ID: <"YmRVl1.0.Mx5.RcyVp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I hope Greg really has something. I personal don't claim to know either way . But I do offer a 6th option for the below: He could perhaps be an "ambulatory schizophrenic". That is someone who is often generally functional, yet pathologically deluded. I've had a number of long interactions with "alternative inventors" and found a common psychological profile: They are usually quite intelligent but not always emotionally stable. Childhood lack of acceptance, and tough family situations caused them to be deep thinking loners. Studies have shown that radical thinkers tend to be latter born children (their most outspoken critics tend to be first born) Their authority-questioning nature kept them from getting traditional science or engineering degrees. They are for the most part self taught from a huge collection of writings (often other inventors). They have always enjoyed the thrill of building things. They seem to cling to the common myth, "if you are smart and try hard enough, you can get anything to work". They are totally offended by the judgemental and exclusive nature of mainstream science and wish to eventually prove them short sighted. They don't seem to hold conventional jobs and often have trouble in close relationships. They have always been interested in fantastic claims. They often have spent years writing up massive yet obscure tomes on their thoughts. They are not put off by lack of success and will struggle to solve the mystery to their dying breath. They frequently have a paranoid fear that some evil force is trying to thwart their altruistic quest. They often believe to be in direct contact with spirit beings. They frequently become "disjointed from realty" yet can superficially appear to be in control. (many people who are really nuts can "hold it in" when they have to) - one informed me: "most suffer from Bi- polar disorder, (Manic Depressive) Tesla, Edison, Ford, Wilber Write, Faraday, W. Churchill, Volta, Ben Franklin, T. jefferson, fulton, HG Wels, Asamove, Openhimer, on and on and on." In deference to these fascinating people: many significant inventors and scientists from 100 years ago matched this profile (unfortunately, since newer discoveries now require large team cooperation, we see less success from loners). There are genetic, ontological and neurochemical explanations for ones brain being predisposed to be a free energy inventor. People of this psychological profile can just as easily get sucked into alternative physics, weird theology, new age pseudo science, unconventional math and fringe politics. I see these people as peaceful and a welcome change from the usual boring nature of typical TV-opiated Americans I meet. hey, who knows maybe one will save the world yet. hope I didn't offend too much (and yes, there's plenty weird about me) Eric Krieg http://www.voicenet.com/~eric -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Saturday, 17-May-97 10:32 PM From: Epitaxy \ Internet: (epitaxy localaccess.com) To: Jay Olson \ Internet: (vortex-l eskimo.com) Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? Looks like you're stirring them up :) >John Logajan wrote: >> William Beaty worte: >> > "Round one" must be awarded to the o/u supporters. Refusing to do >> > this would be a form of cheating, of Goalpost Moving. >> >> If I CLAIM I can knock out Mike Tyson, am I awarded the first round? > >I don't understand. Do you mean that Greg is probably lying about having >achived closed-loop operation? I see him as claiming that he DID knock >out Mike Tyson, a different thing entirely. > >If Greg Watson is lying than it can be for several reasons: > >1. To extort money from investors >2. To gain attention and feed his ego >3. To avoid admitting that he was unsuccesful in "closing the loop " >4. To mislead/discourage us on vortex-l or freenrg-l for debunking purposes >5. To mislead/discourage us on vortex-l or freenrg-l for distraction >purposes (ie. the TED device) > > -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- eric voicenet.com http://www.voicenet.com/~eric From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 22:07:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA00980; Sun, 18 May 1997 22:04:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:04:38 -0700 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:04:26 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: papers please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"RgR52.0.EF.bzzVp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 15 May 1997, Remi Cornwall wrote: > Ah come on! > > We're not telepathic. Someone was asking for a summary of all the > research about a month ago and was told to go away and do his homework. > > If nobody will do it, I will. I'll set up an ftp/web server where you can > drop who you are, group (ou or pm) and your relevant good publications. > All it has to be is a text file with anonymous permissions that anyone > can edit - provided there are no anti-social types. How about this: I modified a "guestbook" perl program to act as a publicly-addable www database. Entries can be appended, not edited, so I'd have to go in and periodically organize the accumulated additions. Try it out: WHO'S WHO IN FRONTIER PHYSICS http://www.halcyon.com/sciclub/cgi-pvt/physics/whoswho.html Comments on ways to improve? If it becomes popular, it could grow into several separate files, for example an 'investigators' list, a 'recommended reading' list, reviews of papers, announcements, separate CF and o/u area, with each open for modification by Vortex users. An online mini-journal. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 18 23:15:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA08638; Sun, 18 May 1997 22:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <337FEADD.6E9 loc1.tandem.com> Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:53:33 -0700 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9-amF2.0.f62.1b-Vp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A few days ago Horace Heffner wrote in response to my message about measuring tiny amounts of excess power: > > > Since it is only 5 cm x 15 cm how about sealing it in a thermos bottle with > a thermometer? Maybe attach a micropone to the thermos in order to be able > to tell the if device is still working without disturbing it. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner This is my first chance to respond, but I wanted to enthusiastically support Horace's idea. If this experiment were performed with a positive result, it would be very convincing. >From Bill Beaty's list, it would eliminate #3 (temperature gradiant). It would also eliminate a couple others that might be added to Bill's list: -- Device is not really ou, but is extremely low friction. -- Device is dependent on air currents -- Device is dependent on visible or uv light (actually part of Bill's #4, but different part of the EM spectrum) All of these seem pretty far fetched, but need to be eliminated. In particular, without seeing the device, it is hard to know how many hours to wait before deciding that the initial starting energy cannot be causing all the motion. There are some pretty amazing clocks out there. The thermos test would be useful only if the amount of excess is greater than the leakage of heat around the thermos seal. If the excess is too tiny relative to the leakage, it would be like pouring water in a sieve and measuring the liquid level If Greg could give an estimate of total energy required to overcome friction, we could make the rough calculation. (It would be difficult for anyone else to make that estimate without knowing what it looks like.) He might remove or disable the magic components, then manually get it to perform one cycle. Measure the height of the ball needed to get it started and the rep rate, and a rough power estimate could be obtained. Once we have the power estimate, someone could easily test whether the thermos idea would work using a resistor and DC supply to supply that amount of power to a thermos. In effect, this would be calibrating a simple calorimeter. (On another topic, I would like to see Greg's replication messages either on Vortex or a web page. Please don't make me subscribe to another mail list!) -- Bob Horst From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 05:03:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA02585; Mon, 19 May 1997 04:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 04:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <33803D37.6DB math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 04:44:55 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: o/u ramp - profiles of free energy inventors References: <199705190334.XAA18784 mail3.voicenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EooTs1.0.Je.yr3Wp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Eric Krieg -voicenet wrote: > > He could perhaps be ... someone who is often > generally functional, yet pathologically deluded. I've had a number > of long interactions with "alternative inventors" and found a common > psychological profile: > Eric: I agree with your general profile. In my own long history of studying anomalous scientific claims, I have generally observed the same thing. I'm not sure if there is a formal psychiatric diagnosis of this condition, but there are definitely folks who are fully functional but have a pathological delusion about some technical field of endeavor in which they themselves invest great effort. Folks on this list no doubt take offense at this characterization, and indeed there is a gray area about whether pursuing an investigation far outside mainstream science knowledge is pathologically delusional or simply innovative (though I think I know it when I see it). However, in mathematics it is another matter, since one can establish rigorously whether the claimant is deluded about the validity of his mathematical proofs. I have found many fine examples from this group of people, and there can be no doubt that they are truly fitting the pathologically deluded profile. Thus, it requires little extrapolation to understand that the same sort of people about in the other areas of science, even though one can seldom rigorously prove they are deluded there. --- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 05:14:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA03410; Mon, 19 May 1997 04:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 04:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:54:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: papers please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Sr43S2.0.Cr.S14Wp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Freaks and Manic Depressives! On line publishing is a good idea as a supplement to that excellent publication I.E. (creep, creep). For those interested perhaps we could private think tank (not fill up vortex) with just the best way to get the system working to cater for those less technologically endowed. Try these:- 1) A database of people, research interests, contact details and publications. 2) Advice on getting people up to speed in different areas of research from text books, classic papers and patents submitted by authors. 3) Papers themselves in HTML format, email text with mime for images etc., WFW format, WP etc. etc. HTML links, ftp, anonymous logon/email. This kind of virtual library will reduce traffic. Hypertext is fantastic. The server doesn't need to be centralised (apart from the who's who list) and the responsibility is there for the publisher. Go on, enter the info age. We nerdy freaks invented it. Why should the cobbler's children be the last to get shoes? Remi. P.S. Still raising and saving money. My first deadline is to push the PCT app into prelim. exam. stage. This is cheap and allows me to stall for about a year. When this is done I will be back with avengence doing experiments in about 2 months time. You might not 'see' me here most days. See me in IE 13 and shoot it down if you can - win or lose I learn something. It's not easy telling intelligent people that they could be wrong - just last week I had to tell people that they were wrong about a chip in that it has a bug in it on address calculating. It's tough, very tough - you will suffer but keep smiling. Just remember, no-one really is your 'enemy' just that everyone (I MEAN EVERYONE) can be a little stupid and small minded sometimes. Just seek the higher ground. Play the sport fairly and like a gentleman. Such good sport! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 06:30:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA15687; Mon, 19 May 1997 06:28:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 06:28:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3380559C.3FF9 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:29:00 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: o/u ramp - profiles of free energy inventors References: <199705190334.XAA18784 mail3.voicenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"C0OCc2.0.1r3.mL5Wp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Eric Krieg -voicenet wrote: > (snip) > hope I didn't offend too much (and yes, there's plenty weird about me) > > Eric Krieg Nope, no offense - most of our mental roofs are sloped enough so that such a snow-load just slides right off. Frank Stenger (an old barely ambulatory hesitatingly optimistic occasionally argumentative quasi emotionally stable authority-questioning moderately deep thinking latter born often self taught mainstream science respecting thrill seeking loner builder of things holding a hard won engineering degree yet somewhat disjointed from reality and only superficially in control of most things except my wife.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 06:55:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA20391; Mon, 19 May 1997 06:53:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 06:53:53 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:53:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970519095313_-1265009327 emout10.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: The Web, Pro & Con Resent-Message-ID: <"ktGuk3.0.U-4.mj5Wp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris, What convinced you that the Web was a necessity? What have you found it necessary for? What is it about the Web that you don't like? I agree with those who think that the Web is an innovation as important as TV, and maybe even more important, but I still can't access the Web. My faithful old Mac SE has the original Mac 68000 chip, running at 8.25 MHz, I think, a black-and-white monitor (not even grayscale), a 46 MB hard disk, and 4 MB of RAM, the max that the computer will take. The dernier cri a decade ago, but now so obsolete that its resale value has probably fallen to less than a hundred bucks. It's definitely time to upgrade. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 08:22:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA01352; Mon, 19 May 1997 08:16:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:16:50 -0700 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.251.148 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970517163330_-1298248618 emout11.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:16:38 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"v8NT6.0.0L.Xx6Wp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 5/17/97 8:04:23 AM, Greg wrote: Message-Id: <199705191537.LAA14163 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <337E9AB6.6FCF math.ucla.edu> (message from Barry Merriman on Sat, 17 May 1997 22:59:18 -0700) Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? Resent-Message-ID: <"ZUqGy1.0.SQ1.sE7Wp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman (barry julia.math.ucla.edu) said: > One could also perhaps imagine that the system functions as a magnetic > heat pump, with field fluctuations leading to magnetic cooling, > and then absorbing heat from the surrounding air. This would > be the magnetic version of the dunking bird toy. If the system requires external sources of heat or cooling, this would be true. But if the entire system is a single temperature AND there are no phase changes (ice melting, water evaporating) then it is showing an entropy reversal, which is an entirely different kettle of fish. Incidently, one more test for Greg to try: rotate the device and see if it is sensitive to orientation. If it is drawing power from the earth's rotation or from the earth's magnetic field then it should be. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 08:54:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA08435; Mon, 19 May 1997 08:48:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:48:29 -0700 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:48:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199705191548.LAA14197 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (jlogajan@skypoint.com) Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? Resent-Message-ID: <"Jyjpb2.0.i32.CP7Wp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan (jlogajan skypoint.com) said: > As a personal note, I am not unsympathetic to O/U researchers. About > 20 years ago, or so, I myself "discovered" a theoretical method to > produce reactionless thrust. It took me several months to feret out > my trivial mathematical mistake. Ah, but did your reactionless drive work until you found the error? In Greg's case we have to deal with that device sitting there going click, click, click. Since he has no KNOWN sources of power, the alternatives are an unknown power source, and over-unity performance. (If he is drawing on ZPE or the earth's rotation through an unknown mechanism, that counts as an unknown power source.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 09:35:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA18547; Mon, 19 May 1997 09:29:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:29:06 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:31:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Correction Resent-Message-ID: <"MeFYM1.0.jX4.H_7Wp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: snip---- This is the case of the the Tesla motor (imagined by Joe Newman to be his invention). snip---- >Lawrence E. Wharton >NASA/GSFC code 913 >Greenbelt MD 20771 >(301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov Dear Mr. Wharton, A correction to your above statement: Joseph Newman does not claim nor "imagine" the Tesla motor to be his invention. Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "I cannot conceive curved lines of force without the conditions of a physical existence in that intermediate space." --- MICHAEL FARADAY From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 09:43:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA20041; Mon, 19 May 1997 09:40:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:40:07 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:42:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? Resent-Message-ID: <"Ezelv3.0._u4.c98Wp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > John Logajan (jlogajan skypoint.com) said: > > > As a personal note, I am not unsympathetic to O/U researchers. About > > 20 years ago, or so, I myself "discovered" a theoretical method to > > produce reactionless thrust. It took me several months to feret out > > my trivial mathematical mistake. > > Ah, but did your reactionless drive work until you found the error? >In Greg's case we have to deal with that device sitting there going >click, click, click. Since he has no KNOWN sources of power, the >alternatives are an unknown power source, and over-unity performance. >(If he is drawing on ZPE or the earth's rotation through an unknown >mechanism, that counts as an unknown power source.) > > > Robert I. Eachus > Re the KNOWN source of power: All of the magnetic fields utilized in Greg's configuration consist of interacting, kinetic energy fields of gyroscopic particles. So long as the atomic domains in the magnets remain aligned, such kinetic energy fields of gyroscopic particles will continue. If, when and to whatever extent such domains become unaligned, the magnetic field strengths will concurrently reduce. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html ".... the magnetic field consists of gyroscopic-type particles which are the mechanical essence of E=mc^2 and represent an orderly flow of kinetic energy." --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 10:13:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA29236; Mon, 19 May 1997 10:06:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:06:28 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:08:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank Resent-Message-ID: <"wxedl1.0.k87.IY8Wp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote, >consider and reconsider any machine, from anyone, even people I am think are >frauds, liars or lunatics, like Potapov, Meyer, Joe Newman and Joe Champion. >If Newman ever offers to sell me a perpetual motion machine with a guarantee, >I'll go down, have a look at it, and if I think it works I'll buy it. If Dear Mr. Rothwell, Thanks for stating the above as your "opinion." Of course, naturally, my "opinion" is that yours, in this instance, is worthless. Joseph Newman is neither a fraud, liar, or lunatic. What is especially ironic is that over 30 years ago, precisely _because_ Joseph Newman DID NOT believe in "perpetual motion", he set upon his research which led to the development of his energy machine technology -- which is _not_ "perpetual motion." Then later, someone comes along -- who has no fundamental understanding of Joseph Newman's work -- and accuses him of "perpetual motion." I would classify such an unscientific attitude in the same genre as that possessed by Donovan F. Duggan: the _proven_ technically-incompetent patent examiner who assigned the fictitious label of "perpetual motion" to Joseph Newman's work because it relieved Duggan of the intellectual responsibility of having to understand the technology. "Perpetual Stupidity" was Duggan's hallmark. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "In speaking of the Energy of the field, however, I wish to be understood literally. All energy is the same as mechanical energy, whether it exists in the form of motion or in that of elasticity, or in any other form. The energy in electromagnetic phenomena is _mechanical_ energy." --- JAMES CLERK MAXWELL From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 10:13:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA11000; Mon, 19 May 1997 09:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <33808252.5AE math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:39:46 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank References: <970519154345_72240.1256_EHB45-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kBzTm1.0.oh2.aA8Wp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > We have not heard from Barry, but if a scientist like him is not > willing to pay for the materials and labor, he is not serious > about evaluating the machine and we can safely ignore him. > Only people who are willing to pay > their own way should be allowed to play this game. > Actually, I did offer to cover his expenses to send me a device in a recent post. However, I disagree with your general assertion: scientists should not have to pay for the right to investigate something. It is they who are providing the service to the inventor when they offer to test his device. In general, I would say an inventor should hire a physicist/engineer to check their work. I'm just willing to do it for free on things that might amuse me. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 11:38:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA20925; Mon, 19 May 1997 11:28:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:28:53 -0700 Date: 19 May 97 14:25:50 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Answer the question, Frank Message-ID: <970519182549_72240.1256_EHB40-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"35K5T1.0.t65.bl9Wp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Barry Merriman wrote: Actually, I did offer to cover his expenses to send me a device in a recent post. Good for you! I missed that. However, I disagree with your general assertion: scientists should not have to pay for the right to investigate something. I am not talking about "investigating something." I am talking about getting hardware from Watson which he spends long hours building and testing. You can investigate for free if he gives you information: blueprints, the patent application, data. He should give you that, since it will cost him nothing to do so. Please note that I said: "Only people who are willing to pay their own way should be allowed to play this game." I mean this particular game: over-unity, not science and technology in general. If Watson had invented something conventional like a new kind of fax-modem board or a thermoelectric chip, and you offered to test it for free, he would be a fool to turn you down. I think the rules are different in o-u because there is so little funding and because people have attitude problems. It is they who are providing the service to the inventor when they offer to test his device. In general, I would say an inventor should hire a physicist/engineer to check their work. If Watson were a millionaire, you would be right. If mainstream science accepted CF or o-u and he could get a grant to hire consultants, you would be right. But the way things are I am afraid only pioneers who pull their own weight and people of independent means can participate. I'm just willing to do it for free on things that might amuse me. I don't like that attitude. It sounds flippant. I am not interested in "amusing" people, and I would not hand over an important piece of work to a person who is primarily looking for amusement. It is pleasing to see a colleague enjoy his work, but I would prefer to collaborate with people who are primarily motivated by curiosity, love of science, the profit motive, altruism, or some other powerful emotion. Something likely to sustain a person for weeks or months. I have never heard of a great scientific breakthrough made or a difficult project completed because someone wished merely to be "amused." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 11:59:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA26801; Mon, 19 May 1997 11:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <33809C67.1574 math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:31:03 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dtt553.0.dY6.so9Wp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Evan Soule wrote: > > Jed Rothwell wrote, > >consider and reconsider any machine, from anyone, > >even people I am think are > >frauds, liars or lunatics, like Potapov, Meyer, Joe Newman > > Dear Mr. Rothwell, > > Thanks for stating the above as your "opinion." Mr. Soule: you have yet to explain to us why it is taking Newman's technology so long to penetrate the real world, or why he will not submit it for validation testing at EarthTech. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 12:01:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA28499; Mon, 19 May 1997 11:54:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:54:30 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:54:16 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199705191548.LAA14197 spectre.mitre.org> from "Robert I. Eachus" at May 19, 97 11:48:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TZC9d3.0.Dz6.b7AWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert I. Eachus wrote: > In Greg's case we have to deal with that device sitting there going > click, click, click. Greg "claims" to have ... I explicitly used the word "claims." -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 12:08:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA29494; Mon, 19 May 1997 11:59:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:59:32 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:59:19 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <970519154345_72240.1256_EHB45-1 CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at May 19, 97 11:43:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"10ihg3.0.FC7.GCAWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > Only people who are willing to pay > their own way should be allowed to play this game. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer on this. The cost might indeed be prohibitive for the inventor to build additional evaluation units. On the other hand, independent evaluators may be innundated with alleged O/U claims and likewise might be unable to afford to build and test them all. It's a bit of messy give and take that doesn't usually please everyone. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 12:30:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA04919; Mon, 19 May 1997 12:19:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:19:48 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:17:20 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank Resent-Message-ID: <"10_m3.0.nC1.JVAWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:43 AM 5/19/97, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] > We have not heard from Barry, but if a scientist like him is not >willing to pay for the materials and labor, he is not serious about evaluating >the machine and we can safely ignore him. Only people who are willing to pay >their own way should be allowed to play this game. > [snip] > >- Jed Barry would be providing the labor and expertise - more than a fair share. If 20 people donate $50 then there is $1000 to cover shipping and construction. Greg gets a free evaluation of his device and gets paid a little something for his time too. Gets the device back too. A postive independent evaluation by a well credentialed sceptic should do wonders for Greg's marketing effort. Seems like a good deal to me. There is a precedence for this kind of thing as well, on s.p.f., Tom Drouge's evaluation of the Griggs rotor, but that was more expensive as there was a trip involved. However, what about the replications of the single shot version that were going on earlier? We haven't heard from many of the participants. Also, isn't free replication Earthtech's thing? There has been a notable silence from them. Proud member of the bi-polar (or at least polar) free energy radical lunatic fringe, Horace Heffner Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 12:31:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA00158; Mon, 19 May 1997 11:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3380A1FC.7A26 skylink.net> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:54:52 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Tampere at Henderson State References: <199705191450.KAA01384 mail4.voicenet.com> <3380A16C.6788@skylink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BwP1m2.0.G2.DAAWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert Stirniman wrote: Forwarded Message: From: Zine Smith Newsgroups: sci.physics.research Subject: Re: Spinning superconductors Date: Monday, May 12, 1997 12:04 PM > In article <5l2g6r$fbh$1 agate.berkeley.edu>, artemis@kbnet.co.uk says... >Does anyone here know whether any followup was done on the Finish >'antigravity' device so widely reported a few month ago? It seems that >the experiment is so simple that anyone with a cryolab would be having a >go. Any informal results positive or negative? > >Dirk [Moderator's note: It's probably worth pointing out that the original experimenters withdrew their paper. -TB] I believe there is a group at Marshall Space Flight Center that is conducting this research. I know of a couple of friends of mine who vitured to Hunstville via a NASA grant to discuss with this group regarding there research. They refused to see them, which is quite unusual for MSFC scientists. There is undergraduate research on this topic about to begain at Henderson State University in Arkadelphia, Arkansas. The director of the research is Dr. Lemming. They are in the embryotic stage of development. Zine > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 12:42:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA10656; Mon, 19 May 1997 12:31:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:31:43 -0700 Date: 19 May 97 15:30:34 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech Message-ID: <970519193033_72240.1256_EHB84-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"tNScr.0.Lc2.UgAWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Evan Soule writes: . . . someone [Jed] comes along -- who has no fundamental understanding of Joseph Newman's work -- and accuses him of "perpetual motion." I did not mean that literally. It is figure of speech. I realize that Newman does not claim "perpetual motion" and he does not believe that his device violates conservation of energy. I am sorry for the confusion. The term "over-unity" ("o-u") is also a figure of speech . . . sort of. It is silly, because any chemical or nuclear energy source produces more energy than you put in, until the fuel is exhausted, so all energy systems are o-u. The term is understood to mean: "an unexplained, unknown energy source that lasts a long time -- usually much longer than a chemical energy source." The only "o-u" machines that have independently replicated and are definitely known to work are CF devices. As far as I know, there is no evidence that they violate the conservation of energy or any other law of physics. Only the "skeptics" claim they do. Steve Jones says that aneutronic fusion in a lattice is a violation of Special Relativity and mass-energy conservation. His arguments are over my head, but scientists who know a great deal about physics, including the late Julian Schwinger, have stated unequivocally that this is not the case, there is no violation. So I suppose Jones is wrong. Soule writes: Joseph Newman is neither a fraud, liar, or lunatic. Ah, but he acts like one. He is, as I say, tantamount to a fraud. Whether he actually is or not makes no difference; he is functionally equivalent to one. He -- and you for that matter -- have squandered countless opportunities to prove your point. You have alienated potential supporters and friends, including me. You have wasted years in a quixotic fight with the government that you can never win. If you had what you claim, you could instantly convince me and thousands of others. You could shut up the naysayers forever, become national heros, and earn hundreds of millions of dollars. All you have to do is build your machines and sell them. Nothing more. You do not need a patent at first, although it would be nice to have one. You can get one later. Bill Gates is the richest man on earth, yet he has never been allowed a single patent for his inventions. (Although a few exceptions have been made, software remains unpatentable *de facto*.) When I consider all that you have to gain: instant wealth, national recognition, everlasting fame, I cannot believe you would be so foolish you would forgo all this just to acquire a patent. A meaningless piece of paper. Surely you must realize that a patent would never stop large corporations and the Chinese from stealing your invention. They will do that no matter what; no power on earth could stop them. You can make plenty of money in spite of them. No, I am forced to conclude that you have nothing, and your claims are nonsense. If I am wrong and you do have something, but you hiding it instead of selling it, then you are guilty of a monstrous crime. You have deprived the world of a life-saving technology just to satisfy your egos. Either way, you are despicable people. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 12:52:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA04106; Mon, 19 May 1997 12:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:17:23 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank Resent-Message-ID: <"yu_-x2.0.301.NWAWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:08 PM 5/19/97, Evan Soule wrote: > Then later, someone comes along -- who >has no fundamental understanding of Joseph Newman's work -- and accuses him >of "perpetual motion." I would classify such an unscientific attitude in >the same genre as that possessed by Donovan F. Duggan: the _proven_ >technically-incompetent patent examiner who assigned the fictitious label >of "perpetual motion" to Joseph Newman's work because it relieved Duggan of >the intellectual responsibility of having to understand the technology. > >"Perpetual Stupidity" was Duggan's hallmark. > >Gyroscopically yours, > >Evan Soule' Ah yes, the play's the thing! Such drama, such irony, such closure! Greg's device is based on or similar to the prior art in Hartman's US Patent 4,215,330. Hartman's device is a ramp device with central track and adjacent magnets arranged so a ferrous ball can rise up the ramp and drop through a "notch." The patent shows multiple ramps in series creating an ever higher ball. It is obviously a perpetual motion machine. The patent examiner? Who else? Donovan F. Duggan! Thanks to Evan Soule' for his wonderfully civil response to flame bait. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 08:48:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA07642; Mon, 19 May 1997 08:45:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:45:52 -0700 Date: 19 May 97 11:43:45 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Subject: Answer the question, Frank Message-ID: <970519154345_72240.1256_EHB45-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"odzat.0.Jt1.lM7Wp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:FZNIDARSIC aol.com; >INTERNET:gwatson microtronics.com.au Frank Znidarsic thinks NASA should look at the Potapov device, and even pay his airfare. I cannot understand why he thinks that! It makes no sense to me. Potapov is supposedly making tons of money selling his machines in Russia. Surely he can afford to pay for an airplane ticket. Furthermore, we tested the machine, Scott Little tested it, Frank tested it, and Potapov himself tested it extensively at Los Alamos. It did not work! As Scott says: My question still stands, Frank. Why would NASA be interested in funding another investigation into Potapov's stuff when he couldn't make it work at LANL? I think you should address that question, Frank. Scott and I are not being confrontational. Experiment is the basis of the scientific method. When test after test shows no excess energy, and when the inventor himself is given every reasonable opportunity to make the thing work, but he fails, I am forced to conclude the machine does not work. I stand ready to reconsider the machine any time. If Potapov wants to do another demonstration -- at his expense -- I'll pay close attention to the results. But for now I am forced to conclude it does not work, and I would hate to see NASA waste any time or tax money on it. Now, I don't like to stir up arguments or alienate people (like Russ George), but if people are going to make bold claims here, they must expect to be challenged by bold, searching, skeptical, tough analysis, and demands for hard proof: data, publications, photographs, demonstrations and so on. If you don't want to publish, don't make the claim in the first place. I am willing to consider and reconsider any machine, from anyone, even people I am think are frauds, liars or lunatics, like Potapov, Meyer, Joe Newman and Joe Champion. If Newman ever offers to sell me a perpetual motion machine with a guarantee, I'll go down, have a look at it, and if I think it works I'll buy it. If Champion ever sends me a macroscopic metal sample that he claims has funny isotopes, I'll pay for another test at Hitachi. I have leaned over backwards to accommodate these people, and I'll do it again if the situation warrants. I don't regret the money I have wasted on them. Nobody familiar with my record can accuse me of being closed-minded or unwilling to risk money! I'll consider anything, but I will also reach a definite conclusion one way or the other when the facts are in. I do not see how any sensible person can avoid concluding that Potapov, Meyer and the others are making false claims. They have nothing. Perhaps some of them honestly believe they have something, or perhaps they are lying. I suppose it is conceivably they actually have something, but acute cases of from "Inventor's Disease" force them hide the truth. it. It hardly matters what causes this bizarre behavior. I say that people who act like this are "tantamount to a fraud." Even if these machines are real, the inventors act as if they are fake. They do everything humanly possible to make people think they are frauds. They destroy their own credibility and sabotage any prospect of success, so for all intents and purposes the machines might as well be fake. People must take steps to establishing their own credibility. Nobody can help them or do it for them. If they will not demonstrate and sell products, nobody will ever believe them, and they have only themselves to blame. Until they show some willingness to join the human race and act rationally, we should dismiss them and ignore their claims. Of course there are many ways to act rationally. I think you should demonstrate and sell products, because I define success in terms of commercial sales and profit. Other people, like Fleischmann, McKubre or Lonchampt define it in academic terms: replicating experiments, publishing good papers and so on. That might work, although I fear it will take too long. At this rate, Fleischmann and McKubre will grow old and die before they establish credibility. The point is, you must do *something* to ensure that your invention is accepted. And if what you do fails to work year after year, you must stop doing it and try something else instead. Trying to get a patent is obviously a futile waste of time. People who insist on keeping the machine secret year after year while trying to get a patent have a pathological inability to learn from experience. It is like doing the same experiment unsuccessfully fifty times in a row without changing parameters or listening to expert advice. You cross the line from dogged persistence to a stubborn denial or reality, or a form of monomania. Along the same lines, regarding this machine from Greg Watson, I think the method of verification is very simple. Here are my suggestions: 1. File for a patent if you hope to get one someday. Do this before you do anything else. The patent will never be granted under the present political and scientific regimes, so after filing you should ignore it except as necessary to keep the application alive. 2. Tell everyone who is willing to listen exactly how to replicate the machine, in as much detail as you know. If anyone tries to replicate, assist them in every way possible. At this stage it is absurd to worry about people "stealing the idea." 3. Make some more machines as quickly as possible. Sell one to me. Name your price, Greg. I'll pay any reasonable fee. I do not think it is reasonable for the readers of this forum to ask Greg to send a machine to Barry Merriman or anyone else for free. I am sure it must take significant time and effort to construct a machine, even if it is only as difficult as a high school science project. We have not heard from Barry, but if a scientist like him is not willing to pay for the materials and labor, he is not serious about evaluating the machine and we can safely ignore him. Only people who are willing to pay their own way should be allowed to play this game. 4. Don't spend time considering absurd hypotheses, like the suggestion that you can extract energy from a permanent magnet without -- at least -- demagnetizing it. As far as I know, you cannot extract any energy from one at all, except the energy you put in by moving something away from the magnet and having it act like a spring. Pay no attention to arguments that cannot be expressed quantitatively, or ones that fail by 5 or 6 orders of magnitude when they *are* expressed quantitatively. The Watson claim is very simple to verify. I am not sure of the mass or the beads or balls that are supposedly moving, but sources of energy like sunlight and transient air movements cannot begin to cause such effects, so don't waste time on them. Some people have suggested that Watson may be crazy or deluded. This is possible; many people in the over-unity energy business are. On the other hand, so are people in the computer software business, and probably dry cleaning and farming too. I get a sense there are more nutcases in the perpetual motion machine business, but I have no statistical proof. But this is irrelevant to Watson's case. Either he is crazy or he isn't. We will soon find out. If he acts rationally and takes steps to promote his own interests, he is rational. If he acts like the other victims of the "Inventors Disease" then we must conclude his case is hopeless, and he should be ignored. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 13:41:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA30993; Mon, 19 May 1997 13:35:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:35:58 -0700 Date: 19 May 97 16:21:02 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Answer the question, Frank Message-ID: <970519202102_72240.1256_EHB99-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"V_1jF1.0.Aa7.jcBWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Barry Merriman echos my concerns: Mr. Soule: you have yet to explain to us why it is taking Newman's technology so long to penetrate the real world, or why he will not submit it for validation testing at EarthTech. Precisely. And if you do not like EarthTech, there are many other equally reputable labs willing to test this machine. If Newman would sell me some machines I would have them tested by some of the most famous labs in the U.S., the U.K. and Japan. I think Barry will agree that the issue here is *independent validation*. All claims must be independently verified in a lab far away from the inventor, out of his presence. And after that they must be independently replicated. That is, new machines must be made from scratch by people who follow the directions in published documents. (The people may have to be "skilled in the art." It is okay if they first practice with a machine made by Newman. In fact, it would be better if he trained them, to save time and reduce confusion. That isn't cheating!) Pons and Fleischmann, CETI and others have followed these rules and achieved significant recognition. CETI was replicated from scratch by U. Illinois. Pons and Fleischmann have been replicated by hundreds of labs. Mizuno gave samples of his proton conductors to Oriani, who did a bang-up job of testing them. Ragland made us two cells, and Chris is vigorously testing one now. This is how it must be done. Nobody gets a free pass. Nobody is taken at his word, not even Martin Fleischmann, FRS. The default condition is: you're wrong. Your claims are unproven. In science and business you are guilty until proven innocent. I am astounded when people expect to be taken at their word. I am even more astounded when they expect us to take them seriously although they refuse to publish! Worst of all are cases where people refuse to perform a simple experiment that will test their theories. They go off in a huff when I criticize them . . . That, my friends, is the three step litmus test to identify a True Crackpot: 1. Won't submit to independent verification. 3. Won't publish. 3. Won't even test it himself. Unfortunately the field of CF is crawling with people like that, and you all know Who You Are, so I won't repeat any names. I don't like to use words like "crackpot" here, but I do not know how else to describe such extremists. If you don't want to publish and submit your machines to independent verification, and you don't want to sell machines, then you are refusing to participate in the normal give-and-take of society. You cannot complain when the rest of us ostracize you. As I said, if you will not take steps to establish your own credibility, nobody will believe you and it is all your fault. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 14:12:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA15714; Mon, 19 May 1997 13:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:40:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:42:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank Resent-Message-ID: <"k8BBZ1.0.Rr3.EhBWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Evan Soule wrote: >> >> Jed Rothwell wrote, >> >consider and reconsider any machine, from anyone, >> >even people I am think are >> >frauds, liars or lunatics, like Potapov, Meyer, Joe Newman > >> >> Dear Mr. Rothwell, >> >> Thanks for stating the above as your "opinion." > >Mr. Soule': you have yet to explain to us why it is taking >Newman's technology so long to penetrate the real world, >or why he will not submit it for validation testing at EarthTech. > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry Mr. Merriman, >From an ideological perspective, one of the reasons why the implementation of new ideas throughout history sometime take longer than the innovator would prefer is because the world is populated in part with some individuals possessing attitudes such as yourself, e.g., you would consider testing a given device because it "amuses" you. I can state that Joseph Newman is endeavoring to bring forth his technology and plans to produce it himself. Re EarthTech: Dr. Puthoff has already indicated an interest in independently constructing a Newman Motor/Generator. I have forwarded information to this effect to his attention. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html ".... the magnetic field consists of gyroscopic-type particles which are the mechanical essence of E=mc^2 and represent an orderly flow of kinetic energy." --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 14:19:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA06629; Mon, 19 May 1997 14:15:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:15:34 -0700 Date: 19 May 97 17:12:19 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank Message-ID: <970519211218_100433.1541_BHG65-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"gIvrc1.0.Rd1.qBCWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace, > There is a precedence for this kind of thing as well, on s.p.f., > Tom Drouge's evaluation of the Griggs rotor, but that was more > expensive as there was a trip involved. It was a farce, though. Did you never read the reports of that bit of money-wasting? Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 14:22:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA06575; Mon, 19 May 1997 14:15:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:15:28 -0700 Date: 19 May 97 17:12:22 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: The Web, Pro & Con Message-ID: <970519211222_100433.1541_BHG65-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"QNRxc1.0.ec1.lBCWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tom, > What convinced you that the Web was a necessity? What have you > found it necessary for? Oh, I need to check what people are saying. Part of the job. > What is it about the Web that you don't like? I'm a tiresome old hacker who feels, partly out of irritation at seeing his 'profession' come so low, that all these 'wonderful new things' really aren't so very wonderful after all. Like, in 1970 I complained that the new mainframes (with clock speeds at least ten times faster) needed *five seconds* to load a program when the OS knew exactly where it was on the disk. That's a joke! Now, with clock speeds thousands of times faster than that, they take a damn sight longer than five seconds! In 1943, the Brits had Colossus and they had the Bombe. These were specialist code-breaking computers - true computers though. Recently someone simulated the Bombe on a Pentium. Instead of the 15 minutes the 1943 machine took, the Pentium simulation took ... guess ... *eighteen hours*. So I should be impressed with all this stuff? Sure, I accept that the 'net is (potentially) the greatest breakthrough since the printing press. But look. In the first half of this century, we originated: Manned flight. Electronics. Semiconductors. Computers. Broadcast radio. Television. Rockets virtually leaving the atmosphere. Mechanised warfare. Nuclear weapons and nuclear power. Radar. Jet aircraft. ........and so on and so on. In the *second* half of this century, we have *improved* computers (but by as much as we think?), we have invented the laser. We have *improved* rocketry and semiconductors and applied many of the inventions of the first half of the century. I'm not impressed. We live in an era of stagnation and believe we are at the white hot leading edge of progress. Note that I'm talking about the physical sciences. Progress in the life sciences has been and is impressive. But we are now at the point where nothing new has happened in the physical sciences for so long that many physical scientists believe that nothing important *can* now happen. Actually, your machine beats the hell out of the one I was managing with a year or so ago! Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 14:22:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA06966; Mon, 19 May 1997 14:17:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:17:14 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3380C348.650E math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:16:56 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech References: <970519193033_72240.1256_EHB84-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IFRCO3.0.li1.PDCWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > ... > I am forced to conclude that you have nothing, and your claims are > nonsense. If I am wrong and you do have something, but you hiding > it instead of selling it, then you are guilty of a monstrous > crime. You have deprived the world of a life-saving technology > just to satisfy your egos. Either way, you are despicable people. > > - Jed Jed: I agree totally with your assessment of this situation, and your writings here on the matter have been most eloquent. I think you should publish a short opinion piece in I.E. devoted to those who make monumental claims, yet are unable or unwilling to follow through in a corresponding manner. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 14:26:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA07542; Mon, 19 May 1997 14:20:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:20:01 -0700 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:18:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705192118.QAA05528 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex From: Scott Little Subject: particularly eloquent Resent-Message-ID: <"PwIgx1.0.ir1.0GCWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 15:30 5/19/97 EDT, Jed Rothwell wrote about Joe Newman's lack of commercial success... >If you had what you claim, you could instantly >convince me and thousands of others. You could shut up the naysayers forever, >become national heros, and earn hundreds of millions of dollars. All you have >to do is build your machines and sell them. Just what IS the hold up, Evan? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 14:34:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA10117; Mon, 19 May 1997 14:30:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:30:04 -0700 Message-Id: <3380BBA6.921344C verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:44:22 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Fl52Y.0._T2.RPCWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: When I had first meet the free energy literature and the Internet, about 9 months ago I was very interested on Newman's machine. As a EE, I immediately wrote couples of letters to Newman to help to measure the excess energy and some circuits to allowing to machine works without batteries which may proof directly the energy generation. Mr. Evan Soule replayed immediately to each my letters and saying nicely that my ideas will not be considered. I understood that time these people have nothing to proof. I understand that their failures are not due to their insufficient engineering skills and they are not victims of the system. They knows very well their machines does not working but they want to get some profit from our of free energy hopes. Actually we are the victims. Actually one of my ideas that send to Newman worked fine for an inventor who tried to recharges batteries from a device apparently showing OU effects. I will not state the result of the measurement that I proposed was positive or negative, but the measurement clearly showed that the device was generating excess energy or not. This case is worked because the claims are honest. I may post the measurement circuit to anyone interested. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 14:53:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA14695; Mon, 19 May 1997 14:43:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:43:27 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:40:45 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: The Rothwell Criteria Resent-Message-ID: <"0DCQa3.0.Hb3.ybCWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 4:21 PM 5/19/97, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] > >1. Won't submit to independent verification. >3. Won't publish. >3. Won't even test it himself. [snip] > >- Jed If no one has claim to the above, or objects, I'd like to suggest we call them the Rothwell Criteria. Extending the concept, one might say someone is a 2 on the "Rothwell Scale" if they fulfill 2 of the 3 Rothwell Criteria. What thinks you all? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 14:58:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA22973; Mon, 19 May 1997 14:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3380C50F.6BF2 math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:24:31 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"F9A-42.0.tc5.6MCWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Evan Soule wrote: > > Re EarthTech: Dr. Puthoff has already indicated an interest in > independently constructing a Newman Motor/Generator. I have forwarded > information to this effect to his attention. > Well, Dr. Puthoff is a real OU "trooper", but why can't Newman go the extra mile an just loan him a working prototype? All that it going to happen is Puthoff and Little will go to great pains to build the device, it won't work, and then Newman will say they didn't do it right. In fact, I have just saved EarthTech the trouble of doing it by telling the undeniable outcome. So, why not just move on to round two and send them a device. Surely Nemwan must have a spare working prototype by now, 30 years into the game? I'm not very good at geography, but I think EarthTech is within driving distance of JN, I'm sure Scott Little would be glad to come pick up the device and get a demonstration from Newman himself before taking it back to his lab. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 15:07:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA17736; Mon, 19 May 1997 14:52:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:52:12 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:54:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank Resent-Message-ID: <"grE2x3.0.wK4.AkCWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >At 12:08 PM 5/19/97, Evan Soule wrote: >> Then later, someone comes along -- who >>has no fundamental understanding of Joseph Newman's work -- and accuses him >>of "perpetual motion." I would classify such an unscientific attitude in >>the same genre as that possessed by Donovan F. Duggan: the _proven_ >>technically-incompetent patent examiner who assigned the fictitious label >>of "perpetual motion" to Joseph Newman's work because it relieved Duggan of >>the intellectual responsibility of having to understand the technology. >> >>"Perpetual Stupidity" was Duggan's hallmark. >> >>Gyroscopically yours, >> >>Evan Soule' > > >Ah yes, the play's the thing! Such drama, such irony, such closure! >Greg's device is based on or similar to the prior art in Hartman's US >Patent 4,215,330. Hartman's device is a ramp device with central track and >adjacent magnets arranged so a ferrous ball can rise up the ramp and drop >through a "notch." The patent shows multiple ramps in series creating an >ever higher ball. It is obviously a perpetual motion machine. The patent >examiner? Who else? Donovan F. Duggan! > >Thanks to Evan Soule' for his wonderfully civil response to flame bait. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner Dear Horace, "Life's a 'serious game.'" This is indeed an operational motto for life held by some. And yes, dear Horatio, if not for the play, for the drama spiked with irony, how dull could life be. At least we can be thankful that that the _proven_ technical incompetent, Donovan F. Duggan, lived up to his historical reputation. I, for one, would wish no less for him. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "It certainly looks as though the lines of force must go out to join the interstellar gas or they must join up at a distance far outside the Sun." --- FRED HOYLE "How few understand the PHYSICAL lines of force!" --- MICHAEL FARADAY From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 15:17:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA26731; Mon, 19 May 1997 14:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:53:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:54:17 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech Resent-Message-ID: <"CYdVj2.0.aX6.vkCWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >To: Vortex > >Evan Soule writes: > > . . . someone comes along -- who has no fundamental understanding > of Joseph Newman's work -- and accuses him of "perpetual motion." > >Jed Rothwell writes: >I did not mean that literally. It is figure of speech. I realize that Newman >does not claim "perpetual motion" and he does not believe that his device >violates conservation of energy. I am sorry for the confusion. Evan Soule': I did not realize that you did not mean it literally. Apology accepted. > >The term "over-unity" ("o-u") is also a figure of speech . . . sort of. It is >silly, because any chemical or nuclear energy source produces more energy than >you put in, until the fuel is exhausted, so all energy systems are o-u. The >term is understood to mean: "an unexplained, unknown energy source that lasts >a long time -- usually much longer than a chemical energy source." The only >"o-u" machines that have independently replicated and are definitely known to >work are CF devices. As far as I know, there is no evidence that they violate >the conservation of energy or any other law of physics. Only the "skeptics" >claim they do. Steve Jones says that aneutronic fusion in a lattice is a >violation of Special Relativity and mass-energy conservation. His arguments >are over my head, but scientists who know a great deal about physics, >including the late Julian Schwinger, have stated unequivocally that this is >not the case, there is no violation. So I suppose Jones is wrong. > >Evan Soule' writes: > > Joseph Newman is neither a fraud, liar, or lunatic. > >Ah, but he acts like one. He is, as I say, tantamount to a fraud. Whether he >actually is or not makes no difference; he is functionally equivalent to one. >He -- and you for that matter -- have squandered countless opportunities to >prove your point. You have alienated potential supporters and friends, >including me. You have wasted years in a quixotic fight with the government >that you can never win. If you had what you claim, you could instantly >convince me and thousands of others. You could shut up the naysayers forever, >become national heros, and earn hundreds of millions of dollars. All you have >to do is build your machines and sell them. Nothing more. You do not need a >patent at first, although it would be nice to have one. You can get one later. >Bill Gates is the richest man on earth, yet he has never been allowed a single >patent for his inventions. (Although a few exceptions have been made, software >remains unpatentable *de facto*.) You write, "...but he acts like one." Once again, Mr. Rothwell -- this is your opinion. Certainly you are entitled to it. And just as certainly, once again, I will state that in my opinion your statement is worthless. Unless you were "secretly hiding in the woodwork" or had "long-distance listening devices" I will state that you run-off-at-the-keyboard with words like "have squandered countness opportunities..." since I don't recall your presence at any meetings in which Joseph Newman was presented with such "countless opportunities" .... indeed, please enlighten me on the "countless opportunities." The "quixotic fight" (once again, of course, your opinion) with the political state did indeed create the legal foundation of Joseph Newman's claim to the innovation of his technology -- among other purposes. Joseph Newman has every intent of producing his technology and is working hard towards that end. Since he has received no assistance from yourself (nor is he anticipating any) his "time frame" for production is not beholden to you. The proper scientific approach is to either 1) wait until the technology is produced by Joseph Newman (however long or short in time this takes) --- then issue your comments, or 2) build it for yourself. But to "run off at the mouth (keyboard)" with accusations and insults only belies your own ignorance. > >When I consider all that you have to gain: instant wealth, national >recognition, everlasting fame, I cannot believe you would be so foolish you >would forgo all this just to acquire a patent. A meaningless piece of paper. >Surely you must realize that a patent would never stop large corporations and >the Chinese from stealing your invention. They will do that no matter what; no >power on earth could stop them. You can make plenty of money in spite of >them. No, I am forced to conclude that you have nothing, and your claims are >nonsense. If I am wrong and you do have something, but you hiding it instead >of selling it, then you are guilty of a monstrous crime. You have deprived the >world of a life-saving technology just to satisfy your egos. Either way, you >are despicable people. > >- Jed Mr. Rothwell: Your problem is that you demonstrably have no concept of the distinction between "egoistic" and "egotistic." In deciphering the grammatical structure of your concluding paragraph above, I am going to base my following comments on the assumption that you are now calling Joseph Newman and myself "despicable people." I do honestly believe that I have been very patient with your sarcasm, your ignorant ridicule and your repeated insults. Now I am called 'despicable.' First of all, I am very deeply offended by this public statement issued by yourself. I am calling for a public apology from you. You, dear Sir, have no --- I repeat _no_ --- idea of the seemingly countless (thousands) of hours which I have dedicated to the development of this technology. And I do this because of a deep desire to see this technology benefit the world and a very sincere love of humanity --- despite some members of which behave as yourself. You can mistakenly attempt to accuse me of being "deluded" or "mistaken" --- but it is _truly_, yes _truly_ UNJUST of _you_ to call me or Joseph Newman 'despicable.' I deep resent your statement and I call for an apology. Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "Lasting love is the accumulation of many small things over a long time span." --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 15:21:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA27280; Mon, 19 May 1997 14:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:52:23 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank Resent-Message-ID: <"G3KGo.0.8g6.cnCWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Horace, > > > There is a precedence for this kind of thing as well, on s.p.f., > > Tom Drouge's evaluation of the Griggs rotor, but that was more > > expensive as there was a trip involved. > >It was a farce, though. Did you never read the reports of that bit of >money-wasting? > >Chris Yes, I read the tail end reports. There never was truly a definitive determination. However, this case should be different. Barry is meticulous and a good reporter, and most important, he would have hands on. The important objective is getting an independent unbiased report on how long the ball goes round and round. I don't see how such an effort can fail to meet the basic criteria. Of course, there are lots of things I can't see. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 15:25:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA24872; Mon, 19 May 1997 15:21:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:21:01 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705191714.ZM5453 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:14:35 -0500 In-Reply-To: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) "The Rothwell Criteria" (May 19, 4:50pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Rothwell Criteria Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"RC_aF2.0.w36.89DWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On May 19, 4:50pm, Horace Heffner wrote: > What thinks you all? Glad this exchange is in email and not on paper. It would be a waste of good trees. -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 15:50:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA29863; Mon, 19 May 1997 15:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: 19 May 97 18:07:57 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank Message-ID: <970519220756_100433.1541_BHG72-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"pMwtH2.0.UI7.p_CWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry, > I'm not very good at geography, but I think EarthTech is within > driving distance of JN, I'm sure Scott Little would be glad to > come pick up the device and get a demonstration from Newman > himself before taking it back to his lab. Well, for once I entirely agree with you. Jed's point is that if someone *behaves* like a fraud, then functionally he *is* one. The test that the Ohio court imposed on the Meyer device was not perhaps a fair one, but it makes no difference since the guy has *never* allowed anyone to test it properly. I begin to suspect that some people have the ability to double-think - to believe sincerely that their gizmo works, but at the same time know it doesn't. By the way, I do keep asking how your literature search is going, could you spare a moment to let us know? Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 15:54:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA32572; Mon, 19 May 1997 15:51:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:51:28 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:54:13 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: particularly eloquent Resent-Message-ID: <"cjtiG1.0.sy7.lbDWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >At 15:30 5/19/97 EDT, Jed Rothwell wrote about Joe Newman's lack of >commercial success... > >>If you had what you claim, you could instantly >>convince me and thousands of others. You could shut up the naysayers forever, >>become national heros, and earn hundreds of millions of dollars. All you have >>to do is build your machines and sell them. > >Just what IS the hold up, Evan? Funding. And Joseph Newman has several potential funding sources which he is actively pursuing at this time. Scott -- I presume your office received the information I sent regarding the technology. Evan Soule' josephnewman earthlink.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 15:54:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA32593; Mon, 19 May 1997 15:51:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:51:30 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:54:16 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech Resent-Message-ID: <"HkkOs1.0.1z7.lbDWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Jed Rothwell wrote: >> ... >> I am forced to conclude that you have nothing, and your claims are >> nonsense. If I am wrong and you do have something, but you hiding >> it instead of selling it, then you are guilty of a monstrous >> crime. You have deprived the world of a life-saving technology >> just to satisfy your egos. Either way, you are despicable people. >> >> - Jed > >Jed: I agree totally with your assessment of this situation, and >your writings here on the matter have been most eloquent. I think >you should publish a short opinion piece in I.E. devoted to >those who make monumental claims, yet are unable or unwilling >to follow through in a corresponding manner. > > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry Dear Mr. Merriman, If this is your opinion of "eloquence" then I can certainly appreciate why you did not pursue a career as an English professor. Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "These particles consist of a 'gyroscopic mechanical action' which can be operationally (mechanically) understood and predicted." --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 16:15:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA06210; Mon, 19 May 1997 16:12:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:12:46 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:11:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970519191152_-1130735860 emout01.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech Resent-Message-ID: <"K0wur.0.yW1.jvDWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 5/19/97 10:25:49 PM, Hamdi Ucar wrote: <> I would be interested in seeing such a circuit. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 16:19:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA07285; Mon, 19 May 1997 15:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:56:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:54:09 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank Resent-Message-ID: <"fbL6s2.0.jn1.9gDWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >To: Vortex > >Barry Merriman echos my concerns: > > Mr. Soule': you have yet to explain to us why it is taking Newman's > technology so long to penetrate the real world, or why he will not > submit it for validation testing at EarthTech. > >Precisely. And if you do not like EarthTech, there are many other equally >reputable labs willing to test this machine. If Newman would sell me some >machines I would have them tested by some of the most famous labs in the U.S., >the U.K. and Japan. I think Barry will agree that the issue here is >*independent validation*. All claims must be independently verified in a lab >far away from the inventor, out of his presence. And after that they must be >independently replicated. That is, new machines must be made from scratch by >people who follow the directions in published documents. (The people may have >to be "skilled in the art." It is okay if they first practice with a machine >made by Newman. In fact, it would be better if he trained them, to save time >and reduce confusion. That isn't cheating!) > >Pons and Fleischmann, CETI and others have followed these rules and achieved >significant recognition. CETI was replicated from scratch by U. Illinois. Pons >and Fleischmann have been replicated by hundreds of labs. Mizuno gave samples >of his proton conductors to Oriani, who did a bang-up job of testing them. >Ragland made us two cells, and Chris is vigorously testing one now. This is >how it must be done. Nobody gets a free pass. Nobody is taken at his word, not >even Martin Fleischmann, FRS. The default condition is: you're wrong. Your >claims are unproven. In science and business you are guilty until proven >innocent. I am astounded when people expect to be taken at their word. I am >even more astounded when they expect us to take them seriously although they >refuse to publish! Worst of all are cases where people refuse to perform a >simple experiment that will test their theories. They go off in a huff when I >criticize them . . . That, my friends, is the three step litmus test to >identify a True Crackpot: > >1. Won't submit to independent verification. >3. Won't publish. >3. Won't even test it himself. > >Unfortunately the field of CF is crawling with people like that, and you all >know Who You Are, so I won't repeat any names. I don't like to use words like >"crackpot" here, but I do not know how else to describe such extremists. > >If you don't want to publish and submit your machines to independent >verification, and you don't want to sell machines, then you are refusing to >participate in the normal give-and-take of society. You cannot complain when >the rest of us ostracize you. As I said, if you will not take steps to >establish your own credibility, nobody will believe you and it is all your >fault. > >- Jed Mr. Rothwell, Although you omitted relevant pronouns and names, I am going never-the-less to assume that you are including in the word "you" above, Joseph Newman. Joseph Newman has indeed _published_ his work which has been sold and distributed worldwide....many major corporations, laboratories, universities, and government agencies have purchased his published book. Joseph Newman has indeed _tested_ his numerous operational prototypes on many, many occasions. So we have covered your numbers 2 (3?) and 3 as above. Over 30 scientists have tested Joseph Newman's prototypes and have signed legal Affidavits that his technology does indeed "Produce Greater External Energy Output Than External Energy Input." This is in addition to the Report of the former U.S. Commissioner of the Patent Office -- William Schuyler -- who also stated that the "Evidence before the Patent and Trademark Office and this Court is _overwhelming_ that Newman has built and tested a prototype of his invention in which the output energy exceeds the external input energy; there is _no_ contradictory factual evidence." Joseph Newman has concluded that 30+ Affidavits are sufficient to prove his point. In point of fact, Joseph Newman is satisfied with the testing phase and is working hard to bring his technology into commercialization. For anyone who desires more testing, Joseph Newman has _published_ a Wiring & Construction Diagram which would enable them to _independently_ construct their own prototype. The only credibility I challenge is that of one who makes repeated accusations, ridicule, and sarcasm based upon ignorance. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "As the angular degree of the crystal (composed of electromagnetic energy in the form of gyroscopic particles) varies, the amount of light (electromagnetic energy in the form of gyroscopic particles) also varies. Such a variation indicates that the crystal is held together with greater electromagnetic force along certain planes: the GYROSCOPIC PLANE!" --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 16:21:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA07914; Mon, 19 May 1997 16:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:00:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:58:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970519185818_-465291613 emout14.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank Resent-Message-ID: <"_WOUv1.0.Ux1.2kDWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 5/19/97 7:34:07 PM, Horace Heffner wrote (concerning Watson device): <> I have offerred to do so directly to Greg, and he indicated he would cooperate with us at some point. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 16:22:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA07012; Mon, 19 May 1997 15:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:54:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:54:19 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech Resent-Message-ID: <"uUPND1.0.Sj1.8eDWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >When I had first meet the free energy literature and the Internet, about >9 months ago I was very interested on Newman's machine. As a EE, I >immediately wrote couples of letters to Newman to help to measure the >excess energy and some circuits to allowing to machine works without >batteries which may proof directly the energy generation. Mr. Evan Soule >replayed immediately to each my letters and saying nicely that my ideas >will not be considered. I understood that time these people have nothing >to proof. I understand that their failures are not due to their >insufficient engineering skills and they are not victims of the system. >They knows very well their machines does not working but they want to >get some profit from our of free energy hopes. Actually we are the >victims. > >Actually one of my ideas that send to Newman worked fine for an inventor >who tried to recharges batteries from a device apparently showing OU >effects. I will not state the result of the measurement that I proposed >was positive or negative, but the measurement clearly showed that the >device was generating excess energy or not. This case is worked because >the claims are honest. I may post the measurement circuit to anyone >interested. > > >Regards, > >Hamdi Ucar Dear Mr. Ucar, Have you had an opportunity to read Joseph Newman's book? You wrote: "They knows very well their machines does not working but they want to get some profit from our of free energy hopes. Actually we are the victims." Quite sincerely Mr. Ucar, I don't know if you are simply mistaken (which I hope) or simply a liar. In either case, we know very well that Joseph Newman's Motor/Generator does indeed work and we have no desire to 'profit from (your) free energy hopes.' This is an either an unintentional mistaken assumption on your part, or a lie. In either case, it is Joseph Newman and/or myself (indirectly) who are 'victims' of your mistake/lie -- not the other way around. On the contrary, it is our hope that we can eventually enable many (ultimately all of humanity) to profit from this technology --- which we do not regard as "free energy," by the way. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "It is inconceivable, that inanimate brute matter should, without the mediation of something else, which is not material, operate upon, and affect other matter without mutual contact . . . and is one reason, why I desired you would not ascribe innate gravity to me. That gravity should be innate, inherent, and essential to matter, so that one body may act upon another, at a distance through a vacuum without the mediation of anything else, by and through which their action and force may be conveyed from one to another, is to me so great an absurdity, that I believe no man who has in philosophical matters a competent faculty for thinking, can ever fall into it..." --- ISAAC NEWTON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 16:24:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA06905; Mon, 19 May 1997 15:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705192256.SAA11156 mail3.voicenet.com> To: Scott Little , vortex email list server Subject: Re: particularly eloquent Date: Mon, 19 May 97 18:52:04 -0500 From: Eric Krieg -voicenet X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v3.1a Resent-Message-ID: <"MfxOB.0.oh1.cdDWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, that's been the big question for many claimants for decades. typical answers I get are: just a minute, need more time, need more money, your test is unfair, "they" may get me, must get a patent before I can show anything, too busy suing former investors, you wouldn't believe proof anyhow - why should I bother? you must understand all my volumes of theory first, God is telling me to wait, if you don't believe me, I won't talk to you, I'm too busy setting up a mass marketing plan, I've taken a detour to work on something even better, etc. I had gotten a commitment from James Randi to pay $1,000,000 to Dennis Lee for proof of his free energy machine -heard nothing back, Eric Krieg http://www.voicenet.com/~eric/dennis.html -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Monday, 19-May-97 04:18 PM From: Scott Little \ Internet: (little eden.com) To: Jay Olson \ Internet: (vortex-l eskimo.com) To: Vortex \ Internet: (vortex-l mail.eskimo.com) Subject: particularly eloquent At 15:30 5/19/97 EDT, Jed Rothwell wrote about Joe Newman's lack of commercial success... >If you had what you claim, you could instantly >convince me and thousands of others. You could shut up the naysayers forever, >become national heros, and earn hundreds of millions of dollars. All you have >to do is build your machines and sell them. Just what IS the hold up, Evan? -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- eric voicenet.com http://www.voicenet.com/~eric From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 16:39:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA10296; Mon, 19 May 1997 16:34:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:34:23 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970519193213_1888505115 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fwd: Answer the question, Frank Resent-Message-ID: <"1Detw.0.oW2._DEWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Re: Answer the question, Frank Date: 97-05-19 19:17:17 EDT From: FZNIDARSIC To: 72240.1256 compuserve.com To: little eden.com Jed, I never said it worked. I tested it myself and it didn't work. I do believe, that with the proper development, that the technology has possibilities. If Little and Puthoff could suppply some advice on cavitation and electron condensations I may be able to combine it with Miley's info, my knowledge, and what Potapov's claims and get the thing working. Don't rule me out I know much and my faith is based on my analysis of the field. Frank Znidarsic fznidarsic aol.com 481 Boyer St. http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html Johnstown, Pa. 15906 Automatic links: Home_Page Send_E-mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 16:51:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA12156; Mon, 19 May 1997 16:43:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:43:08 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3380E57D.2B62 math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:42:54 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank References: <970519220756_100433.1541_BHG72-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9y95a1.0.qz2.BMEWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > By the way, I do keep asking how your literature search > is going, could you spare a moment to let us know? > I received the papers Jed was kind enough to send, and I put some particular effort into reading the Longchamp (spelling ?) replication paper. I have decide that what I will do is construct my own CF literature survey, with the scientific review panel being me, myself and I. I.e., I will ferret out the most significant CF papers, one way or 'nother, and put my own reviews/critques of them up on my web site. I do this based on the theory that if you build it, they will come. I.e., once my reviews are posted, others will be driven to post their own rebuttals/critiques. If anyone wants to contribute, they can send a commentary to me, or a web link to their own commentary, and I will add it---though I will act as a moderator to maintain quality. I don't plan to process a large number of papers this way, probably only ~ 10 total. And I may just scan in the whole papers as well, so readers can get the whole experience. The goal here is quality of papers and commentary, not quantity, which is covered by Britz. Of course, it will be slow going, but my first entries will be on the Miley paper and on the Longchamp paper, since my reviews are nearly done. I will add future papers and reviews as my time and interests allow. Perhaps next will be the soon-to-be-released SRI report on the E-quest experiments. More to the point of your question, for example, the Longchamp paper is an excellent replication, but the results are thoroughly unconvincing that "CF" is occuring, as I detail in my review. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 17:19:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA16440; Mon, 19 May 1997 16:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:59:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:00:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank Resent-Message-ID: <"CeZ8d.0.o04.kbEWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Evan Soule wrote: >> > >> Re EarthTech: Dr. Puthoff has already indicated an interest in >> independently constructing a Newman Motor/Generator. I have forwarded >> information to this effect to his attention. >> > >Well, Dr. Puthoff is a real OU "trooper", but why can't Newman >go the extra mile an just loan him a working prototype? All that >it going to happen is Puthoff and Little will go to great pains >to build the device, it won't work, and then Newman will say >they didn't do it right. > >In fact, I have just saved EarthTech >the trouble of doing it by telling the undeniable outcome. So, why >not just move on to round two and send them a device. Surely >Nemwan must have a spare working prototype by now, 30 years into the >game? I'm not very good at geography, but I think EarthTech is >within driving distance of JN, I'm sure Scott Little would be glad to >come pick up the device and get a demonstration from Newman >himself before taking it back to his lab. > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry Dear Mr. Merriman, Once again, your intellectual honesty is underwhelming. I do not know of a better method of verification than independent _construction_ and testing. The offer was suggested and the materials were sent. Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "I cannot conceive curved lines of force without the conditions of a physical existence in that intermediate space." --- MICHAEL FARADAY From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 17:21:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA21740; Mon, 19 May 1997 17:18:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:18:00 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:17:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970519201659_-465281911 emout06.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, ceti.msn.com@aol.com Subject: potapov Resent-Message-ID: <"Vrzgz1.0.WJ5.ssEWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, Potapov has a Euro Patent on a venturi type cavitational technology. That's something. .............................................................................. ... He signed a letter of co-development with my group. That's something. ............................................................................ Miley said right in the middle of his lecture at Write Patterson that there may be something to my theories. That's something. .............................................................................. ........... I was invited by NASA to presnet my proposals. That's something. .............................................................................. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 17:22:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA16483; Mon, 19 May 1997 17:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:00:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:00:53 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank Resent-Message-ID: <"QQDXS3.0.T14.vbEWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Barry, > > > I'm not very good at geography, but I think EarthTech is within > > driving distance of JN, I'm sure Scott Little would be glad to > > come pick up the device and get a demonstration from Newman > > himself before taking it back to his lab. > >Well, for once I entirely agree with you. Jed's point is that if >someone *behaves* like a fraud, then functionally he *is* one. The test >that the Ohio court imposed on the Meyer device was not perhaps a fair >one, but it makes no difference since the guy has *never* allowed anyone >to test it properly. I begin to suspect that some people have the >ability to double-think - to believe sincerely that their gizmo >works, but at the same time know it doesn't. > >By the way, I do keep asking how your literature search is going, could >you spare a moment to let us know? > >Chris Dear Chris, As far as he is concerned, Joseph Newman is beyond the "testing phase." Many of the participants in this list are unaware that hundreds, literally hundreds of hours of testing were conducted by many different individuals over the years. The following is one early example of independent testing conducted by a laboratory in Mississippi: FOR THE HISTORICAL RECORD In searching through my storage archives for certain materials, I came across the following Statement written after initial tests were conducted on two of Joseph Newman's very first crude, hand-built prototypes. This is one of the earliest testimonies lending support to the technology. ___________________________________________________________________________ Mississippi State, MS 21 May 1983 TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN: The following statement is being made concerning a machine designed and constructed by Mr. Joseph Newman of Lucedale, Mississippi, which he is persuaded delivers more energy output than that which is put into the device. The device is a rotating machine which is capable of delivering both mechanical and electrical energy outputs. Mr. Newman has two of these machines which will be referred to as "smaller" and "larger." I have had both machines demonstrated to me and have made input and output measurements (electrical) on the larger machine. It was not possible to measure the friction losses in the machine, and no output other than electrical was being taken from it. I have been unable to verify that the output energy exceeds that put into the machine, however MEASURED ELECTRICAL EFFICIENCIES ARE RATHER REMARKABLE, taking into consideration the fact that the machine is quite crude in construction. I have not been able to make any reliable measurements on the smaller machine, however, Mr. Newman has a demonstration whereby he runs the machine with one exhausted dry cell battery, and the battery becomes somewhat rejuvenated while running the machine. I do not understand the mechanism by which this occurs and therefore cannot either confirm or deny the hypothesis of more energy out than in. I must confess that I am unable to understand Mr. Newman's theory of the electromagnetic field by which he explains the validity of his hypothesis, however, I DO NOT MEAN TO IMPLY THAT HE IS INCORRECT IN ANY WAY. I REALIZE THAT MR. NEWMAN'S DEVICE WOULD DEFY ALL KNOWN PHYSICAL LAWS IF IT DOES INDEED DELIVER MORE POWER THAN IS PUT INTO IT, BUT THE EVIDENCE DEFINITELY SUGGESTS THAT SUCH MAY BE THE CASE. I certainly believe that additional measurements, made under better controlled conditions, should be accomplished in order than an indisputable answer may be forthcoming. Signed Donald F. Fitzgerald, P.E. Electrical Engineer ____________________________________________________________________ Note: Actually, Joseph Newman would maintain that his technology does NOT defy all known physical laws --- in fact, his technology extends Einstein's Matter/Energy Equivalence into the electromagnetic domain. ____________________________________________________________________ Independent of Dr. Fitzgerald were the hundreds of hours of testing performed by Dr. Hastings and others ---- testing which clearly demonstrated "Greater External Energy Output Than External Energy Input." Joseph Newman is now concentrating on bringing this technology into commercialization. If others wish to independently build their own prototypes and conduct their own independent testing --- they are welcome to do so. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html ".... the magnetic field consists of gyroscopic-type particles which are the mechanical essence of E=mc^2 and represent an orderly flow of kinetic energy." --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 17:28:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA16173; Mon, 19 May 1997 16:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:58:29 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:55:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970519195508_35985333 emout05.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro, jbarron@gpu.com Subject: potapov not a fraud Resent-Message-ID: <"d6H3n1.0.cy3.VaEWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote, > >consider and reconsider any machine, from anyone, > >even people I am think are > >frauds, liars or lunatics, like Potapov, Meyer, Joe Newman .............................................................................. .................... Znidarsic answered Potapov's machine did not work but he is NOT a FRAUD. He let me test it. He gave it to me. He let LanL test it. He came here with his own money. I didn't have to sign a thing. He asked for no money. I took him to dinner, wasn't much on my part. In fact he signed a letter of CO-development that WE drew up. It defines our business relationship and lets me move ahead as his representative. Yuri is NOT a fraud, in fact, I rather like him. True his device did not produce anomolus energy. According to my analysis there are three routes to tap the zero point interaction . (that's what I call it) Electrolytic Cavitation Cryogenic. I believe this. I'm trying to develop the cavitation and cryogenic technologies because I believe that in the long run these will prove economic. I told this to Reed Husih 2 years ago. I have something, an early patent application on a cryogenic technology and a business relationship with Yuui, This is important. I put some of my own funds into this project. To really do the job I need more funds and more help. That what I going to ask NASA for. Yuri needs help Russia is poor I would like to help them too. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 18:06:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA20729; Mon, 19 May 1997 17:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3380E1D4.197D62D verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:27:16 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"R5qfH.0.p35.g3FWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: >>"They knows very well their machines does not working but they want to get >>some profit from our of free energy hopes. Actually we are the victims." Evam Soule wrote: >Quite sincerely Mr. Ucar, I don't know if you are simply mistaken (which I >hope) or simply a liar. In either case, we know very well that Joseph >Newman's Motor/Generator does indeed work and we have no desire to 'profit >from (your) free energy hopes.' This is an either an unintentional >mistaken assumption on your part, or a lie. In either case, it is Joseph >Newman and/or myself (indirectly) who are 'victims' of your mistake/lie -- >not the other way around. I concluded that machines (Motor/Generator) of Mr. Newman will not generate enough electrical or mechanical power for sustaining their own running. Simply they are not more than an ordinany electrical motor or a generator. They are not capable to recharge the batteries which are connected. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 19:49:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA13611; Mon, 19 May 1997 19:41:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:41:39 -0700 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:39:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705200239.VAA26136 dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: Re: potapov not a fraud To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: aki ix.netcom.com Resent-Message-ID: <"zXraS1.0.2K3.LzGWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: May 19, 1997 Frank, you wrote: > >Potapov's machine did not work but he is NOT a FRAUD. He let me test it. Late as it is, I must say that to accuse Potapov openly as a fraud is just a little premature. It may occur in the minds privately, but should not publically. Potapov has fustrated and disappointed many people primarily interested in proving out the claims of the Yusmar --- intentionally or not. And he has not tried to straighten any misunderstandings that his conduct or inactions toward those efforts may have created. Also at LANL, the facilities and time provided Potapov, and the conditions under which the tests were run were far from ideal, as I heard it, to prove out the Yusmar. Frank know about this. I do not have any financial interests as Frank may have to promote, or believe in Potapov. However I do have an interest in finding out the truth of the device -- both the Yusmar and the Quantum units. Toward that end, I have tried to help out Dr. Peter Gluck, Potapov's close consultant to his efforts. The main focus of Dr. Potapov is his region, not the U.S.. This spring, and it may fall into summer, Dr. Potapov is scheduled to formally present his O/U production and demonstration devices to the world. I do not know the details, nor the exact when and where. Perhaps Frank does. He was invited to Potapov's factory/laboratory earlier. I do not know whether he has gone or not. Perhaps his knowledge of these activities adds to his confidence. I am just an interested observer. Actually I wasn't even that until Mallove, Chris, Rothwell, Puthoff, Little's efforts among others proved to be to be such a fustration after going into it with such gusto, anticipation, and effort (include funds in that). So let us see what transpires. It may be everything, it may be nothing. Time flies. What can be said for those that have tried so far, has been nothing -- unfortunately. But 3001 Clarke is interested at least. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 19:58:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA02870; Mon, 19 May 1997 19:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:28:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:45:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech Resent-Message-ID: <"vX_Nt1.0.mi.InGWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I wrote: > >>>"They knows very well their machines does not working but they want to get >>>some profit from our of free energy hopes. Actually we are the victims." > >Evam Soule wrote: >>Quite sincerely Mr. Ucar, I don't know if you are simply mistaken (which I >>hope) or simply a liar. In either case, we know very well that Joseph >>Newman's Motor/Generator does indeed work and we have no desire to 'profit >>from (your) free energy hopes.' This is an either an unintentional >>mistaken assumption on your part, or a lie. In either case, it is Joseph >>Newman and/or myself (indirectly) who are 'victims' of your mistake/lie -- >>not the other way around. > >I concluded that machines (Motor/Generator) of Mr. Newman will not >generate enough electrical or mechanical power for sustaining their own >running. Simply they are not more than an ordinany electrical motor or a >generator. > >They are not capable to recharge the batteries which are connected. > >Regards, > >Hamdi Ucar Dear Mr. Ucar, Question: In arriving at the above conclusion, did you construct/test your own prototype or did you test a pre-existing model built by someone else? Sincerely, Evan Soule' josephnewman earthlink.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 19:47:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA12953; Mon, 19 May 1997 19:38:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:38:32 -0700 Date: 19 May 97 22:35:17 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Subject: Merriman's upcoming review Message-ID: <970520023517_72240.1256_EHB100-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"XRW961.0.m93.MwGWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:barry julia.math.ucla.edu Barry Merriman writes: I will ferret out the most significant CF papers, one way or 'nother, and put my own reviews/critiques of them up on my web site. Start with the bibliography of the Storms paper. Of course, it will be slow going, but my first entries will be on the Miley paper and on the Longchamp paper, since my reviews are nearly done. I think this is a poor choice of papers. These are unrepresentative. Miley's transmutation paper is the first of its kind. It is a preliminary report. It has not been replicated and I am sure Miley would agree that it needs a lot of work. If your purpose is to explicate the mainstream, solid CF results you should do Pons and Fleischmann, McKubre, Miles, Oriani, Kunimatsu or one of the other leading papers on excess heat. Please note this has nothing to do with the quality of the papers you have chosen, which I think is good. I presume your purpose is to present a well rounded critique of the field. In that case, you must concentrate on what 95% of the people in the field have done. You should discuss work that has been solidly replicated in hundreds of labs, not results that have been seen in a few labs. (I am not suggesting we should ignore these results!) Perhaps next will be the soon-to-be-released SRI report on the E-quest experiments. Much worse! That is a unique approach, like Arata's. Nobody outside of E-Quest and SRI knows anything about it. There have been no attempts to replicate it. However good the work may be, we cannot consider it anything more that a tentative report of a possible new approach. A mere footnote, albeit an interesting one. The results MUST be independently replicated before they become real science. A person reading your report will get the erroneous impression that cold fusion experiments are done once, by isolated groups, with no follow-up and no independent replication. Surely you do not want to give that impression, do you? By the way, when is "soon" as in "soon-to-be-released"? More to the point of your question, for example, the Longchamp paper is an excellent replication, but the results are thoroughly unconvincing that "CF" is occurring, as I detail in my review. Well, if your conclusion is that the calorimetric results are an artifact, and there is no excess heat, then I think you do not understand the calorimetry. You better re-read the Pons and Fleischmann paper it is based upon. *Do* let us know if you find a mistake! You could win a nice Nobel Prize to put on your mantelpiece for that kind of coup. After all, this is standard, off-the-shelf, textbook calorimetry performed by two of the world's top experts in that field. If you think there is excess heat of a chemical origin you do not understand chemistry. And if you think it is a mystery but it cannot be nuclear in origin I am sure your arguments are over my head. In any case, beware! Don't imagine that you can "explain away" these results. Many skeptics can tie themselves in knots to reach this conclusion, but their papers are hilarious in retrospect. Whatever else you do, I recommend you run a copy of this critique past Biberian, who is Longchamp's English speaking colleague and a very nice fellow. He might save you future embarrassment. If you honestly believe you have found some kind of error or fault in the calorimetry, think twice. I suggest you examine the fate of other "skeptical" critiques. Please note what Martin Fleischmann did to Morrison; what Storms and I did to Hoffman; and what I did to Droege. Not to blow my own horn, but we chopped them into tiny fragments. I do not see how any objective person could judge them to be anything but a laughingstock. Let me hasten to add that I do not claim this is because I have some profound grasp of science, or that I am particularly good at critiquing papers. Far from it! I know only the basics, from one year of college physics. It was easy for me to blow Hofmann out of the water because his main argument is that the heavy water used in cold fusion experiments is recycled from Candu Fission Power Reactors. This is preposterous. You see, I may know only elementary physics, but unlike Hoffman and the officials at EPRI who paid for his book, I know how to dial information in Ontario, Canada, and I have enough sense to ask the engineers in charge of the reactors what they do with their used heavy water. With a single phone call I gutted 10% of Hoffman's tour de force. Recycled heavy water is 100 million times to dangerous to be handled without special equipment -- a fact I am sure Hoffman and the EPRI would realize if they devoted 15 seconds thinking about it. They are, after all, world class experts in fission power reactors. The anti-cold fusion clique at EPRI paid Hoffman $100,000+ to come up with a good reason to put the hatchet into cold fusion. The best he could come up with was this kind of egregious, outrageous nonsense. This and all other "skeptical" critiques of the calorimetry and methodology of mainstream cold fusion experiments are nothing but a pastiche of egregious nonsense. I do not mean that some of the critiques are wrong, or that by and large they are wrong, I mean that every argument on every page of the Hoffman book, the Close book, and the Huizenga book is nonsense. Ask Chris about the Close book someday, if you'd like a good laugh. Everything in the Taubes book is hearsay and imaginary nonsense. Consider his repeated assertions that people measured voltage but not amperage, or his idea that in tritium experiments they did not begin by establishing the baseline levels of tritium in the electrolyte, cathode and other cell components. The people who wrote these critiques (except Taubes) are first-rate, highly trained scientists. Even a highly trained scientist can fall into a trap of believing ridiculous ideas like the Candu Reactor Water Thesis. If you don't watch out, you might fall into a similar trap. The Droege trip has been mentioned here. I hope you have taken a moment to review my brief review of it, in I.E. issue #5 & #6, p. 27. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 20:14:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA18826; Mon, 19 May 1997 20:02:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:02:29 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:34:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970519213452_1922065181 emout19.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: blacklightpower Resent-Message-ID: <"tLFN12.0.Ra4.pGHWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings Vorts, Things are heating up. I have this hunch that Randy Mills and BlackLight Power have found the reason for *all* excess heat in *all* the so called "cold fusion" (fusion it aint) experiments. No scientific reason for my hunch, just a feeling I have after following spf/vortex from the very beginnings (March 1989). Jeez, what a patent fight this is gonna be folks. Go to the BLP website and peruse the new info I found there today. Holy Hydrinos Batman, it looks like some really heavy hitters are getting involved. I wish I could but it looks like I'm gonna have to wait for the public offering. New info is at URL: http://www. blacklightpower.com/newinfo.html have fun, Vince Las Vegas Nevada (this is much more fun than video poker!) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 21:23:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA04036; Mon, 19 May 1997 21:14:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:14:08 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: The triumph of hope over experience To: vortex-l eskimo.com (vortex-l) Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:24:32 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5BkXb3.0.vz.7KIWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The latest issue of Infinite Energy magazine was bundled with a copy of the ANE Newsletter (Academy for New Energy.) If I may quote from the first paragraph of a signed article by Zenergy Corp Director Mike Fisher: "... We all want to hear the good news, but unfortunately, of the dozens of claimed over-unity technologies, our group has not yet witnessed one device that we can be completely sure of, although we know thay they are out there and several of the ones we have seen will in due course prove to be viable over-unity technologies." Now here is the odd thing, this psychological factor that has been mentioned recently on vortex. These guys obviously have sufficient presence of mind to objectively evaluate actual demo units and make negative findings, but yet, believe without evidence that such successful devices are either already out there or are forthcoming giving sufficient development effort. Clearly as a con man, I probably couldn't sell these people on major investments, but I sure could sell them a lot of books and demo devices. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 19 21:33:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA04622; Mon, 19 May 1997 21:14:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:14:52 -0700 Reply-To: < snip.net> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: The Web, Pro & Con Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:46:24 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19970520031141651.AAD196 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"AJpzA.0.161.jKIWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris said that a simulation of the Bombe on a pentium took 18 hours to break a code that the original Bombe did in 15 minutes. Invalid comaprison, grapefruit and grapes. Turing's machines were special purpose computers, based on information on the structure of the Enigma machines, but without knowing the exact settings for a specific message. Being electronic, they could cycle through the possible settings very efficiently. That's all they could do. The pentiums are general purpose computers which will always lose to specific purpose machines. Try word processing on a Bombe; it would bomb. Mike Carrell ----------Chris said, minus snips: > Like, in 1970 I complained that the new mainframes (with clock speeds at > least ten times faster) needed *five seconds* to load a program when the > OS knew exactly where it was on the disk. That's a joke! Now, with > clock speeds thousands of times faster than that, they take a damn sight > longer than five seconds! How big were the programs? Word 6? > In 1943, the Brits had Colossus and they had the Bombe. These were > specialist code-breaking computers - true computers though. Recently > someone simulated the Bombe on a Pentium. Instead of the 15 minutes the > 1943 machine took, the Pentium simulation took ... guess ... *eighteen > hours*. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 00:57:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA01654; Tue, 20 May 1997 00:55:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:55:46 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:53:21 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Calorimetry test related to Watson Device Resent-Message-ID: <"5LXx92.0.mP.1aLWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I just did a quick check on a large wide mouth Dewar flask (about 4.5 liter) made of thick glass to get a worst case feel for sensitivity (much worse than with the much smaller food jar pairs and fine wire leads.) I didn't use a second opposing flask, only the polypropylene top that came with the flask. I set the flask upside down with thermister leads and calibration resistor leads going through the LN2 vent holes in the side of the lid. The lid was set on top of a large block of polyurethane packing foam. No outside temperature controlled environment was provided. Temperature outside was measured at 3 points and averaged, and the temperature inside the flask was measured at the top and bottom of the flask, and averaged. A large but stable temperature gradient developed inside the flask. An outside enclosure and inside fan are needed for best results. The 5 probe Cole-Parmer thermistor thermometer (H-08502-12) and probes (08430-00) used are certified traceable to NIST standards and have a rated accuracy of 0.2 deg. C or 0.36 deg. F absolute and 0.01 C or 0.01 F relative. A 1.2 K resistor (measured at 1.199 K) was used for calibration. Only one calibration point was run due to the long time constant for the device (about 60 min.) The run took 5 hours to reach equilibrium. The supply voltage was measured at 10.07 V. The current was 8.4 mA, giving total power of 0.0846 W. This gives a calibration constant of 49.2 mW/deg. C, or 38.26 mW/deg. F. A limit to yes/no resolution is thus about 1 mW. I should mention that when the power was put on the resistor that it was apparent in the top thermistor readings within seconds. Now, if we could get an estimate from Greg of an elevation and resulting rolling distance, we have a basis for determining the rolling friction. It is then a question of how many balls move at what speed in the looping device to be tested. The dimensions of 5 cm by 15 cm were given, but it would be useful to know the third dimension, including rise. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 01:02:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA02338; Tue, 20 May 1997 01:00:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:00:46 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:58:23 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Calorimetry test related to Watson Device Resent-Message-ID: <"55vOo2.0.Pa.keLWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I just wrote: "Now, if we could get an estimate from Greg of an elevation and resulting rolling distance, we have a basis for determining the rolling friction. It is then a question of how many balls move at what speed in the looping device to be tested. The dimensions of 5 cm by 15 cm were given, but it would be useful to know the third dimension, including rise." I forgot to mention that we also need the weight of the ball(s). Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 02:31:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA17503; Tue, 20 May 1997 02:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 02:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: 20 May 97 05:09:14 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Subject: Re: Fwd: Answer the question, Frank Message-ID: <970520090914_100060.173_JHB64-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"1e-GV3.0.OH4.-hMWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank said: >> I do believe, that with the proper development, that the technology has possibilities. << But the thing is supposed to be in mass production back in Moldova, (or is it Ruritania). Either thousands of satisfied customers are bathing in cheap hot water or the factory is overflowing with writ-servers. Get one from the factory. Whatever it costs will be less than months of "development". Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 03:32:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA13040; Tue, 20 May 1997 03:28:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:28:00 -0700 Date: 20 May 97 06:24:24 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank Message-ID: <970520102424_100433.1541_GHQ40-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"uBuB13.0.gB3.loNWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry, > More to the point of your question, for example, the Longchamp > paper is an excellent replication, but the results are thoroughly > unconvincing that "CF" is occuring, as I detail in my review. You deny any energetic anomaly? If so, are you not in danger of falling into that most fundamental error, that of confusing models, theories and notions with the experimental findings with which they are associated? It seems to me that we have here a Catch-22. Experimental results can be rejected on the grounds that either they have no associated theory, or because their associated theory is unacceptable (or even just plain wrong). And what happened to my request - which you said you would follow up - to review the Phys Letts A paper from F&P, the subsequent debate with Morrison, AND the New Scientist article? I pointed out that this topic was the CF experiment, criticism, and mainstream comment, in microcosm. What bothers me is the way you seem to be avoiding these matters. It makes me feel that you are not being objective. That lowers your credibility (at least, it does with me). Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 03:43:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA14070; Tue, 20 May 1997 03:42:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:42:50 -0700 Message-ID: <33803B57.6408 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:06:55 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Simple Ou Toy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"A0Yub2.0.hR3.e0OWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I have finished the drawings and instructions for the phase 1 device. I designed it to be very simple to build (only a ruler, hacksaw, file, balse knife and superglue) and to use very easy to find material (3mm sheet balsa, 12mm alum "U" channel, 3x10mm steel bar, small ceramic fridge type magnets (4.5x10x13mm), 4 x straight pins and a 12mm steel ball). The design is based on the "KISS" principal. Cost is around $20 or Aust ($15 US). The phase 1 device is a single class two ramp (ball climbs ramp, exits and drops to original level) with a 250mm ramp and a 25mm lift. It is based on one of my working ramp, only simpler. The building of ramps and the mastering of the magnet adjustments are very necessary for success in the following 3 phases. To double check, I decided to follow my own instructions and build a unit "strictly" from the instructions. Well, it simple to build and looks great but, after four hours of playing, checking, fiddlying and then getting mad, I can't get the ball to fully climb the ramp! I suspect I have built up the side magnet assys incorrectly or some of my "NEW" magnets are soft. I will still try for Tuesday, but I may be a little late. I want the design to be 100% solid. PS, I will post to both Freenrg-l and Vortex-l due to many requests. Thanks for the support guys. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 05:37:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA25785; Tue, 20 May 1997 05:36:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 05:36:06 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:36:00 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705201236.HAA04850 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Inventor must provide device Resent-Message-ID: <"Vj0b-1.0.pI6.rgPWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:54 PM 5/19/97 -0600, Evan Soule wrote: >>Just what IS the hold up, Evan? > >Funding. And Joseph Newman has several potential funding sources which he >is actively pursuing at this time. > >Scott -- I presume your office received the information I sent regarding >the technology. Yes, we did, Evan....thanks. However we probably will not build our own Newman device because it is certain to be different in many possibly significant details from a genuine Newman device. Instead we wish to focus our efforts on accurately measuring the power/energy balance of a genuine Newman device. If we confirm Newman's claims, we will join you in seeking funding (it will be a very short search!) for his technology. If we prove that his device is not o-u then there can be no claim that we did not test the correct device...only that we did not operate it correctly...and that could be prevented by the training visit that Barry proposed. May we borrow a device for a relatively short while? Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 05:46:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA03753; Tue, 20 May 1997 05:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 05:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:26:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705201226.HAA04372 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Inventor should provide device Resent-Message-ID: <"D85M_2.0.Ww.KZPWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:24 PM 5/19/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: >Well, Dr. Puthoff is a real OU "trooper", but why can't Newman >go the extra mile an just loan him a working prototype? Yes, why not? I believe that it is quite likely that, if such a device actually does work, it will be because of some very subtle aspect of its construction...one that I would very likely "engineer out" of the device in my own version. >All that >it going to happen is Puthoff and Little will go to great pains >to build the device, it won't work, and then Newman will say >they didn't do it right. This is exactly what CF proponents have said about all our failed CF experiments to date. >within driving distance of JN, I'm sure Scott Little would be glad to >come pick up the device and get a demonstration from Newman >himself before taking it back to his lab. Yes, in this case, that would be quite satisfactory. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 05:47:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA04000; Tue, 20 May 1997 05:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 05:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:29:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705201229.HAA04486 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Eric Krieg -voicenet , Scott Little , vortex email list server From: Scott Little Subject: Re: particularly eloquent Resent-Message-ID: <"o_arg.0.Q-.pbPWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:52 PM 5/19/97 -0500, Eric Krieg -voicenet wrote: >Scott, > > that's been the big question for many claimants for decades. typical >answers I get are: > Here's another jewel, Eric: This one almost works...I am now building a BIGGER one! Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 06:07:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA06201; Tue, 20 May 1997 05:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 05:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:50:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705201250.HAA05673 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Answer the question, Frank Resent-Message-ID: <"DbPl52.0.lW1.WvPWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:33 PM 5/19/97 -0400, FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: >I tested it myself and it didn't work. >cavitation.....electron condensations.....Miley's info...my >knowledge.....what Potapov's claims......get the thing working. Frank, it looks to me like you're just throwing a bunch of trendy things together and HOPING that you can make them sing together. You need to face the FACT that all the theories which suggest that these phenomena are involved in o-u processes have sprung up ONLY to attempt to explain some o-u experimental observations. If those observations turn out to be flawed...POOF! the theories they spawned should disappear. Potapov has failed #2 and #3 of the Rothwell criteria and when he attempted #1, his device failed. If I am mistaken about #3, please let me know. When I was investigating the Yusmar, I tried HARD to obtain Potapov's own test results and was unsuccessful. I can only conclude that he has none. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 06:19:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA07315; Tue, 20 May 1997 05:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 05:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: 20 May 97 08:54:00 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Computers and software Message-ID: <970520125359_100433.1541_GHQ54-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"5kni13.0.6o1.y_PWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike, > Chris said that a simulation of the Bombe on a pentium took 18 > hours to break a code that the original Bombe did in 15 minutes. > > Invalid comaprison, grapefruit and grapes. Turing's machines were > special purpose computers, based on information on the structure > of the Enigma machines, but without knowing the exact settings for > a specific message. Yes, of course. But, hey, it's a hell of a story - innit? Would you say this tale has *no* lessons for us? And you ask about program size. Well, the English Electric KDF9 (reverse Polish, transformer logic, 6uS memory cycle, 2/4MHz clock) would beat the next generation machines at matrix inversion and mag-tape sort, and simulate the previous generation 29 times faster than the old (thermionic DEUCE) would go. Programs generally *were* rather smaller because of its very compact order code (you could squeeze a supervisor and a paper-tape copy prog into 54 bytes, and one instruction could in two bytes multiply two 96-bit fp numbers and add the result to a third), it had four levels of hardware multiprogramming and could do transfers simultaneously to all its peripheral devices - it had a "lock-out" memory to prevent memory access clashes between them. You can't disagree that OS software grew like Topsy into grotesque and inefficient overheads, surely? Or that hardware (in general) threw away its sophistication in favour of brute force? Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 06:32:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA01524; Tue, 20 May 1997 06:29:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 06:29:22 -0700 Message-Id: <33818E53.FBBC58E2 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:43:15 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dWLTL.0.kN.oSQWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Evan Soule wrote: >Question: In arriving at the above conclusion, did you construct/test your >own prototype or did you test a pre-existing model built by someone else? No, it is not necessary in this case because the argument to my conclusion is the report that you send: (1A) I have had both machines demonstrated to me and have made input and output measurements (electrical) on the larger machine. It was not possible to measure the friction losses in the machine, and no output other than electrical was being taken from it. But in my letter "A way to measure friction losses" at 1 Oct 1996: (1B) You used a mathematical method for calculating mechanical losses when the motor is running in a certain speed. I prefer always directly measuring method if possible. In this experiment I propose a setup for this: <...> This result will be correct as the efficiency figure is correct. It is assumed that the mechanical coupling of the motors is negligible. Second method: Connect auxiliary motor to an mechanical power measuring system. Adjust loads for obtaining the some speed (i.e. 200 RPM) and the same input power. The measuring system figures gives the exact value of the mechanical/passive losses as the NEWMAN motor/generator run normally. It was possible to measure the mechanical losses, but remain undone. Your report say: (2A) I have been unable to verify that the output energy exceeds that put into the machine, however MEASURED ELECTRICAL EFFICIENCIES ARE RATHER REMARKABLE, taking into consideration the fact that the machine is quite crude in construction." But in may second letter at 1 Oct 1996 "BATTERIES MAY BE DISCONNECTED COMPLETELY" I wrote: (2B) An other a simple setup for measuring the input power/gain of the engine: I hope that this setup does not modify the principle of the system. In this way, the current passing from the batteries is regulated. Only the average current is allowed to pass and the voltmeter can read it. <...> I believe that setup will clearly show the power figures of the system. There is an other opportunity that if the current passed from R1 found in reverse direction recharging the batteries), at that time BATTERIES MAY BE DISCONNECTED COMPLETELY and replaced by a load and zener diode to prevent further voltage popups to blow-up everything. If this setup works, NEWMAN motor/generator is proved without any suspect as a free-energy generator. Mr. Newman, please contact me to get your comments and decisions on this subject. In may later latter at 6 Oct 1996: Dear Evan, I received your mails. Thank you for your prompt response. The letters that I'd send are about the experiments for measuring the over-unity performance of the engine and procedure to remove the INPUT POWER after the engine started up. If this procedure will work it will be a direct evidence of FREE-ENERGY nature the engine. There will no need to bother with efficiency figures and loss calculations. Please make sure that Mr. Newman read these letters! Conclusion: In (1A) and (2A) report that you send to us state unable to measure power figures which are key for proofing the excess energy. But in my letters written more than 6 months ago as (1B) and (2B) I gave a method to measure them. If my proposal was not considered technically and you still send us such a report, the proof is self evident. Best Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 06:50:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA05457; Tue, 20 May 1997 06:49:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 06:49:24 -0700 Date: 20 May 97 09:48:20 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: The triumph of hope over experience Message-ID: <970520134820_72240.1256_EHB94-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"niOTX1.0.5L1.ZlQWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex John Logajan quotes Dr. Johnson, who described the remarriage of "a gentleman who had been very unhappy in marriage" as "the triumph of hope over experience." This applies to the ever-hopeful yet ever-disappointed Mike Fisher, who says: . . . We all want to hear the good news, but unfortunately, of the dozens of claimed over-unity technologies, our group has not yet witnessed one device that we can be completely sure of, although we know that they are out there and several of the ones we have seen will in due course prove to be viable over-unity technologies. If I were Mr. Fisher, and I had seen nothing but failed tests and null results, I would have given up years ago. I do not believe in any of the magnetic motors or anti-gravity machines, because as far as I know none has ever been independently verified. But this is not the case with conventional, metal lattice cold fusion. *This* phenomenon has been replicated in more labs with a far greater signal to noise ratio than, say, plasma fusion. Cold fusion experiments have produce hundreds of times more energy than the best plasma fusion experiments in history, at the defunct PPPL, with an input to output ratio thousands of times better than their best. I have repeatedly met with the scientists who claim they have seen the effect. I have attended their conferences, examined their data and their apparatuses, and watched four CF devices producing heat. The denial of cold fusion requires the triumph of imagination over established fact. The wishful thinking of Fisher and the magnetic motor people is no more outlandish than the reasons dredged up by Huizenga and Hoffman to dismiss cold fusion. I am on less solid ground with the Griggs device. I have tested it repeatedly on site, but that is not the same as an independent test, or a full replication from scratch. The machine has been tested off-site by the Doherty County facilities manager (a competent professional who performed the tests before a video camera) and by experts at places like the T.V.A. They saw massive, easily detected excess heat, and so did I. So I am inclined to believe it works, but I would feel better about it with more proof from a sustained, independent research project. We still hope to acquire a Griggs machine for testing, but it has been delayed for months. This is discouraging. Unlike Fisher, I would not say categorically that any o-u technology will "in due course" become viable. History shows that no outcome is guaranteed. Commercial products that everyone thought must succeed have failed, and vice versa. I say that if enough money is invested and no unforeseen problems arise, then the technologies will become viable. Certainly we can say that the prospects for CF are better than those of hot fusion, based on the performance of the machines: input to output ratio, net energy produced, dollar cost per joule or watt, reliability, ease of reproducibility, and so on. Cold fusion is way ahead in every measurable parameter. In spite of the well-known difficulties, it is far easier to reproduce, and billions of dollars cheaper. Dr. Johnson's gentleman has reason to hope for a happy marriage because there are examples of happily married people. Fisher is not completely irrational, because Pons and Fleischmann have been replicated, the excess heat is real, and there can be an unknown, new sources of energy. This is not the end of history after all. But Logajan is right about Fisher's psychology. This is well said: "These guys obviously have sufficient presence of mind to objectively evaluate actual demo units and make negative findings, but yet, believe without evidence that such successful devices are either already out there or are forthcoming giving sufficient development effort." There is no evidence for any of the magnetic motors. Only hearsay, and the unsubstantiated claims of the inventors. Fisher is barking up the wrong tree. Just because CF works, that is no reason to think the magnetic motors also work. You might as well conclude that CF proves ITER will be economically viable! ITER, CF and magnetic motors are three totally independent, unrelated technologies. Rock solid proof and good results in one do not reflect on the other two. I suppose success in CF should prompt us to think twice before dismissing new ideas. It should make us inclined to give these oddball machines a second look. But I know of no scientific reason to associate one with the other. Dr. Johnson also said: Every man who attacks my belief, diminishes in some degree my confidence in it, and therefore makes me uneasy; and I am angry with him who makes me uneasy. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 07:09:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA13195; Tue, 20 May 1997 06:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 06:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: 20 May 97 09:48:32 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Potapov not a fraud Message-ID: <970520134831_72240.1256_EHB94-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"N8YrM3.0.5E3.LnQWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Akira Kawasaki says there is not sufficient evidence to accuse Potapov of fraud. I do not accuse him of fraud. I accuse him of *acting exactly like a fraud would act*. I say he is functionally equivalent to a fraud, for the reasons the Kawasaki himself spells out: Potapov has frustrated and disappointed many people primarily interested in proving out the claims of the Yusmar --- intentionally or not. And he has not tried to straighten any misunderstandings that his conduct or inactions toward those efforts may have created. Exactly right! And this is exactly what we would expect him to do if he knew his machine does not work. This, coupled with the fact that every well-documented test of his machine has failed leads me to the unavoidable conclusion that he is either a fraud or he is crazy. It does not matter which. The well documented tests of his machine include: Little, Mallove, U. St. Petersburg, LANL, Znidarsic. Poorly documented, half-rumor tests include one done in Moscow by the Soviet NASA and one in Japan. The test proposed by Potapov to Chris Tinsley was a farce. Chris refused to have anything to do with it. Kawasaki writes: Late as it is, I must say that to accuse Potapov openly as a fraud is just a little premature. It may occur in the minds privately, but should not publically. Why not?!? I paid good money for those Potapov machines. I got screwed. I, of all people, have every right and every reason to tell the world what happened and what I think of Potapov, and why I think it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 07:30:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA09903; Tue, 20 May 1997 07:27:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:27:40 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970520102659_-196855061 emout13.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Potapov Resent-Message-ID: <"Uxh5x2.0.fQ2.RJRWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Norman wirites But the thing is supposed to be in mass production back in Moldova, (or is it Ruritania). Either thousands of satisfied customers are bathing in cheap hot water or the factory is overflowing with writ-servers. Get one from the factory. Whatever it costs will be less than months of "development". Norman .............................................................................. ......................... Norman technology is important, relationships are important, and sailmanship is important. Yuri is a bit of a sales man. His approach is valid, however, I do not believe that it is quite as far along in development as in his sales presentation. .............................................................................. ........................... Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 07:39:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA12040; Tue, 20 May 1997 07:37:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:37:03 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:44:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Jason Aldo To: Eric Krieg -voicenet Cc: vortex email list server Subject: Re: o/u ramp - profiles of free energy inventors In-Reply-To: <199705190334.XAA18784 mail3.voicenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"GglfF1.0.1y2.ESRWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 18 May 1997, Eric Krieg -voicenet wrote: > I hope Greg really has something. I personal don't claim to know either way > . But I do offer a 6th option for the below: He could > perhaps be an "ambulatory schizophrenic". That is someone who is often > generally functional, yet pathologically deluded. I've had a number of > long interactions with "alternative inventors" and found a common > psychological profile: > > They are usually quite intelligent but not always emotionally stable. > Childhood lack of acceptance, and tough family situations > caused them to be deep thinking loners. Studies have shown that radical > thinkers tend to be latter born children (their most > outspoken critics tend to be first born) Their authority-questioning nature > kept them from getting traditional science or engineering > degrees. They are for the most part self taught from a huge collection of > writings (often other inventors). > They have always enjoyed the thrill of building things. They seem to cling > to the common myth, "if you are smart and try hard enough, you can get > anything to work". They are totally offended by the judgemental and > exclusive nature of mainstream science and wish to eventually prove them > short sighted. They don't seem to hold conventional jobs and often have > trouble in close relationships. They have always been interested in > fantastic claims. They often have spent years writing up massive yet obscure > tomes on their thoughts. They are not put off by lack of success and will > struggle to solve the mystery to their dying breath. They frequently have a > paranoid fear that some evil force is trying to thwart their altruistic > quest. They often believe to be in direct contact with spirit beings. They > frequently > become "disjointed from realty" yet can superficially appear to be in > control. (many people who are really nuts can > "hold it in" when they have to) - one informed me: "most suffer from Bi- > polar disorder, (Manic Depressive) Tesla, Edison, Ford, Wilber Write, > Faraday, W. Churchill, Volta, Ben Franklin, T. jefferson, fulton, HG Wels, > Asamove, Openhimer, on and on and on." > > In deference to these fascinating people: many significant inventors and > scientists from 100 years ago matched this profile > (unfortunately, since newer discoveries now require large team cooperation, > we see less success from loners). There are genetic, ontological and > neurochemical explanations for ones brain being predisposed to be a free > energy inventor. People of this psychological profile can just as easily get > sucked into alternative physics, weird theology, new age pseudo science, > unconventional math and fringe politics. I see these people as peaceful and > a welcome change from the usual boring nature of typical TV-opiated > Americans I meet. > hey, who knows maybe one will save the world yet. > > hope I didn't offend too much (and yes, there's plenty weird about me) > > Eric Krieg > http://www.voicenet.com/~eric > Sounds about right, now why can't everybody be like this? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 07:52:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA14225; Tue, 20 May 1997 07:49:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:49:27 -0700 Message-ID: <338184F9.D0D00C98 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:33:21 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg , List Server Vortex Subject: Simple OU Toy X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eU8z_3.0.6U3.sdRWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Just a few answers : 1) The Simple OU Toy is not my rotary device. Same leg action, different dog. 2) It is a closed loop version of the patent 4,215,330, with improvements. 3) There will be 4 phases of construction : Phase 1, Single straignt mag ramp. Phase 2, Multiple linked straight mag ramps. Phase 3, Single curved ramp. (Yes, the secret is sort of out. Don't curve the connecting track, curve the ramp!) Phase 4, Multiple linked curved ramp (in a circle if you must). Yes, the little ball rolls around and around, while stayng on the "Neutral Line". No, you can't just wait for the final installment to build one as certain skills must be mastered along the way to get the thing working. Construction cost per ramp is around $20 Aust ($15 US). 4) I am trying to arrange a US and European web page to host the construction details along with actual pictures (still and moving) of the working devices. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 07:54:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA14869; Tue, 20 May 1997 07:51:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:51:46 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 06:49:07 -0800 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple Ou Toy Resent-Message-ID: <"YdSWe1.0.8e3.0gRWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 9:06 PM 5/19/97, Greg Watson wrote: >Hi All, > >I have finished the drawings and instructions for the phase 1 device. > >I designed it to be very simple to build (only a ruler, hacksaw, file, >balse knife and superglue) and to use very easy to find material (3mm >sheet balsa, 12mm alum "U" channel, 3x10mm steel bar, small ceramic >fridge type magnets (4.5x10x13mm), 4 x straight pins and a 12mm steel >ball). The design is based on the "KISS" principal. Cost is around $20 >or Aust ($15 US). >[snip] >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax Greg, This is terrific! I am especially impressed with the small size, which is very handy. Would you consider putting together kits? Add 100% profit or more and charge mailing. It would be well worth it to be working with the same kinds of parts as most everyone else, and not to have to go looking for parts. I just wrote: "Now, if we could get an estimate from Greg of an elevation and resulting rolling distance, we have a basis for determining the rolling friction. It is then a question of how many balls move at what speed in the looping device to be tested. The dimensions of 5 cm by 15 cm were given, but it would be useful to know the third dimension, including rise. I forgot to mention that we also need the weight of the ball(s)." If the ball size is exactly 12mm , then we don't need the weight, it can be calculated. Here's tha calorimeter data again: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - I just did a quick check on a large wide mouth Dewar flask (about 4.5 liter) made of thick glass to get a worst case feel for sensitivity (much worse than with the much smaller food jar pairs and fine wire leads, high impedence thermistors.) I didn't use a second opposing flask, only the polypropylene top that came with the flask. I set the flask upside down with thermister leads and calibration resistor leads going through the LN2 vent holes in the side of the lid, which were not sealed. The lid, with attached upside down flask, was set on top of a large block of polyurethane packing foam. No outside temperature controlled environment was provided. Temperature outside the flask was measured at 3 points and averaged, and the temperature inside the flask was measured at the top and bottom of the flask, and averaged. A large but stable temperature gradient developed inside the flask. An outside enclosure and inside fan are needed for best results. The 5 probe Cole-Parmer thermistor thermometer (H-08502-12) and probes (08430-00) used are certified traceable to NIST standards and have a rated accuracy of 0.2 deg. C or 0.36 deg. F absolute and 0.01 C or 0.01 F relative. A 1.2 K resistor (measured at 1.199 K) was used for calibration. Only one calibration point was run due to the long time constant for the device (about 60 min.) The run took 5 hours to reach equilibrium. The supply voltage was measured at 10.07 V. The current was 8.4 mA, giving total power of 0.0846 W. This gives a calibration constant of 49.2 mW/deg. C, or 38.26 mW/deg. F. A limit to yes/no resolution is thus about 1 mW. I should mention that when the power was put on the resistor that it was apparent in the top thermistor readings within seconds. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - A sample calculation with roughly estimated data: Now, using 6mm as a ball radius, that's a volume of 4/3 Pi r^3 = 1.5 cm^3. Using the density of iron, that gives a ball weight of (7.86 g/cm^3)(1.5 cm^3) = 11.8 g. Let's assume a drop of 1 cm results in a total rollout distance of 1m in about 5 seconds. Assuming a very short dropping ramp and ignoring rotational energy the initial rollout speed is V = (2 g h)^0.5 = ((2)(9.8 m/sec^2)(0.01 m))^0.5 = 0.44 m/sec. This gives a kinetic energy Ek = 0.5 m v^2 = (0.5)(0.0118 kg)(01.96 m^2 s^-2) = 1.156x10^-3 kg m/s^2. Assuming a rollout distance of 1 m we have friction energy loss of 1.156x10^-3 J/m. Assuming the ball in the device averages a speed of 0.2 m/s we have a power output of only 2.31x10^-4 J/s = 0.231 mW. This is almost measurable using the crude techniques above. A little refinement in technique and insulation, and the use of some high impedence thermistors (a few dollars each) in a temperature differential bridge should provide an adequate test to determine something about the source of energy. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 08:10:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA18922; Tue, 20 May 1997 08:06:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:06:28 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:05:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705201505.KAA04415 dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: Re: Potapov not a fraud To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: aki ix.netcom.com Resent-Message-ID: <"PtyAH.0.9d4.jtRWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: May 20, 1997 Jed was one the first to buy one in the U.S. He may yet become proud that he was one of the first to buy one. For now, unfortunately, "Caveat Emptor" (cavere: to be on one's guard, beware - emptor: buyer, purchaser) . The caution has existed for ages. Whether it applies to Jed remains to be seen. No offense meant but I do not know the fine details of the purchase behind what written/signed promises or guarantees by Potapov or legal representatives? -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 08:17:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA21511; Tue, 20 May 1997 07:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: 20 May 97 10:53:32 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Ucar means a dynamometer Message-ID: <970520145332_72240.1256_EHB52-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"YAWbw1.0.0G5.mkRWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Hamdi Ucar writes: You [Soule] used a mathematical method for calculating mechanical losses when the motor is running in a certain speed. I prefer always directly measuring method if possible. Amen. Second method: Connect auxiliary motor to an mechanical power measuring system. Adjust loads for obtaining the some speed (i.e. 200 RPM) and the same input power. The measuring system figures gives the exact value of the mechanical/passive losses as the NEWMAN motor/generator run normally. Mechanical power measuring systems are called dynamometers. There are many different kinds. Scott Little knows a great deal about them. Griggs has a superb one, and the people who tested his machine at the TVA have a gigantic one. But even the simplest, cheapest ones you put together yourself are remarkably accurate. I recall the Wright brothers made a crude dynamometer on the sands of Kitty Hawk. I should say they made one "out of the sands of Kitty Hawk." Chanute warned them that chain transmission causes up to 20% losses of power. Kelly describes it: As the Wrights had allowed only five per cent, they felt considerable alarm. Since Chanute was a capable and famous engineer, it seemed prudent to find out whose estimates were more nearly correct. After Chanute had gone, the brothers suspended one of the chain drives over a sprocket and hung a bag of sand at each end of the chain. By measuring the amount of weight on one side needed to lift that on the other, they calculated the loss in transmission. As nearly as they could tell, this loss was even less than the five per cent they had estimated. (p. 92) The moral of this story is: you should always listen to capable and famous engineers, but you should not necessarily believe them. If you have time, run a test to find out if their skeptical objections have any merit. Apparently, in thirty years of work, Newman has never thought to perform the kind of test the Wrights completed in an hour that afternoon, or the other, more sophisticated dynamometry they performed countless times back in Dayton. Scott or I or anyone familiar with elementary mechanics would have done such tests 29 years and 363 days ago. They are fundamental to establishing the claim. They cost practically nothing. Yet -- as I knew before Ucar's posting -- such tests have not been done, or the results have been kept secret. This kind of behavior leads sensible people to dismiss Newman. Meyer, Potapov and the others have also refused to perform definitive tests. And, of course, the people who think up think up crackpot reasons to dismiss cold fusion never dare to test their ideas in a lab. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 08:21:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA23906; Tue, 20 May 1997 08:18:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:18:32 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970520111736_-1063035633 emout19.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: theories Resent-Message-ID: <"BCmiq.0.Jr5.63SWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, you have it wrong. My theories and the theories of Hal Puthoff did not spring up in response to what has happened. They sprung up many years before in an effort to find a means to produce new energy. In fact, I came down to Texas 7 years ago to discuss things with Hal Puthoff. The evidence of superconductivity in CETI cells, the evidence that the nuclear spin orbit force may have an extended range, the finding of Miley of a swimming layer of electrons that clusters between the metals in the CETI cell. These things came many years later. Hal and I differ somewhat it the details but in general we were NOT wrong. Seven years ago we both agreeed that electron condensations were key to the process and now we are proven correct by experiment. This is not going to go away. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 08:41:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA26041; Tue, 20 May 1997 08:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:18:57 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Eric Krieg -voicenet , Scott Little From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: particularly eloquent Resent-Message-ID: <"jS5aT3.0.pM6.p6SWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 7:29 AM 5/20/97, Scott Little wrote: [snip] > >Here's another jewel, Eric: > >This one almost works...I am now building a BIGGER one! > > >Scott Little Eric may have already signed off of vortex due to the message volume and noise level. The above excuse sounds very familiar. Maybe it is worthy of being called the "tokamak excuse". Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 08:45:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA29939; Tue, 20 May 1997 08:42:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:42:12 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:41:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970520114121_-62552547 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: theories-2 Resent-Message-ID: <"jMNJY2.0.SJ7.HPSWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wirtes that theroies were developed in response to what is now happening. NOT SO at all. In 1985 way before Pons and Fleishmann I applied for a patent on a cryogenic nuclear device to produce electricity. This device was based on the principle that the nuclear spin orbit force increases range within an ELECTRON condensation. It was a joke at the patent office. It's not such a joke anymore. I'm asking NASA for support to continue with this work. A check of my notes. In 1988 I called Hal Puthoff and said, "I think that there is a link between electron clusters and gravity." Puthoff responded, "I think so to!" This happened BEFORE Tampere ask Puthoff I speak the truth. In 1988, before Tampere and Pons and Fleishmann again, I began efforts to get my first book published Elementary Antigravity ISBN 0-533-08344-6. In the last chaper I identified the Tampere and cold fusion reactions that are now taking place in the lab. No, I haven't stopped my now, "My paper, "This Source of Inertial and Gravitatial Mass" is going to change the world of physics forever. Puthoff has a copy of it about 7 years old. A much better version is just now being considered for publication. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 08:55:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA28215; Tue, 20 May 1997 08:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:29:33 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Ucar means a dynamometer Resent-Message-ID: <"hL2Tt.0.iu6.dGSWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:53 AM 5/20/97, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] > By measuring the amount of > weight on one side needed to lift that on the other, they calculated the > loss in transmission. As nearly as they could tell, this loss was even > less than the five per cent they had estimated. (p. 92) > [snip] > >- Jed As they should have well known by experience. The bicycle is one of the most efficient devices ever made. There are bicycles that are over 95% efficient, and that's with simplistic chain drives. Chain drives can be made very efficient by using roller bearings in the links etc. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 09:08:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA28477; Tue, 20 May 1997 08:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:34:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Ha! Ha! Guinea Pigs! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"UYSkf3.0.py6.HISWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: (Add paranoid conspriracy theorist to list) Vorts, You just haven't got it! We are part of a massive experiment being observed by psychologists. Actually psycologists are from a hyper advanced matriarcal society that discovered the laws of the physical sciences `a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away`. Basically all our women are in on it - those curvy wobbly bits are really extra brains and the male psychlogists, arts intelligencia and pompous establisment are the drones of this society put forward as front men to form the interface upon which they can gather data on our behaviour. In their society they eat, drink, sleep and have sex (and sleep again!) because male traits were long long ago dismissed as an evolutionary dead end. No, no you sad deluded fools, they solved all this o/u p.m stuff eons ago! They communicate snippets of the science to us subliminary by infra sound (those wobbly bits again) - you see, you never really think anything original - its all been done! The drones are left gathering the data or performing set wind-up pieces. The real experiment is our reaction of which you've just provided 100's of kilobytes. You see, once all the easy stuff has been done (`hard` science and engineering) the REALLY important issues become fashion, soap operas and Hello! Magazine (or is it Journal). This is the new science. No, seriously, you researchers (non sexist take note) are heroes. In the true spirit of our forebarers who lifted us up from savagedry you are the true heirs. Pat yourselves on the back and feel proud that - 1) You take responsibility for you own life and don't burden others (why I hate socialism) with your foibles. 2) You stand for truth and decency and don't mind sticking your neck out from the herd. 3) You stand by people. Blessings on all the wives and families who stand by their men when times are tough. Sadly becoming rare nowadays. No, the `personality traits' (the psychologist forgot to add not suffering fools) are to be commended. Yes, we get tetchy, bust up realtionships etc. etc. We're the kind of people that wouldn't have given into a Hitler, Stalin and other shit. We`re the crackpots who would have said the people are wrong, I'll save that persecuted group, etc. and don't fear the consequences because it is UNDENIABLY RIGHT. ........................................................................ No, the true area worthy of study is the cowardly masses (they may just be dumb) and their leaders (who are in on it in every way). There you can study mass stupidity and evil (how did Hitler become democratically elected say). ....................................................................... If you want to blow the cover of the little people (you may not achieve in life but still have great spirit and so not be little) read Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged, Fountainhead and the essays such as Romantic Manifesto) or try Robert Milton `Forbidden Science` (not fiction but account of history of science). Finally, if you want to stop the decadency and decline in our society - reform the education system. Teach people right and wrong, independence and self-reliance and build character through sport or direct work in the community (may be even national service). Take a look at our youngsters and their neurotic, herd following, facile nature. Take a trip down any student union and hear the loathing of self, humanity, the future and the crappy `intellectual discussions` bolstered with cheap `psycho-babble'. Hear how they dismiss anyone who is any good as some kind of freak. Little people indeed. Surely what we do is much more than getting excess energy. It's about the re-creation of oursleves in our highest ideals. That's it, I've spoken my mind. I`m not angry, I just watch surrenly and laugh at it all. If you want to second this, its up to you but don't clog the list. To the best within us, Remi. Oh yes, what are 'excess profits`? Will `excess energy` become taxable (para-phrasing Michael Faraday's rebuke to a politician). Cigaratte ads. are banned but they don't mind legalising cannabis. Alcohol not fashionable, nor cars that do twice speed limit. `Businesses need to be more socially aware`. Devolve power to Scotland, Wales and England but form a British Football team. The people voted for our manifesto, so we can do what ever we like in the name of the people. Just some of the goings on in our new-model, new-labour, new-illogicality, new stoneage, new whopping 271 seat maj. government From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 09:12:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA04197; Tue, 20 May 1997 09:09:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:09:44 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:09:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705201609.LAA24883 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: theories-2 Resent-Message-ID: <"2nRVd3.0.Q11.7pSWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:41 5/20/97 -0400, FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: >Scott wirtes that theroies were developed in response to what is now >happening. NOT SO at all. OK, Frank, we need to separate the theories into two groups. (1) New theories about various things (such as Inertia as a Zero-Point Field Lorentz Interaction, Haisch, Rueda, & Puthoff) which are just ordinary breakthroughs in physics and (2) theories which arise to explain o-u experimental observations...such as most CF theories. All I'm saying is that, if the experimental observation that spawned the theory turns out to be a measurement error, we ought to strongly consider dumping the theory. In the case of the Yusmar, it has now repeatedly been demonstrated NOT to be o-u. In my mind, this strikes a severe blow to the theories which suggest that cavitation is an o-u process. In view of other seemingly more promising areas of investigation, I would therefore recommend against further investment of time and energy into Dr P's "inventions". Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 09:16:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA00943; Tue, 20 May 1997 08:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: The triumph of hope over experience To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:47:36 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <970520134820_72240.1256_EHB94-1 CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at May 20, 97 09:48:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TELHG.0.dE.bVSWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > I do not believe in any of the > magnetic motors or anti-gravity machines, because as far as I know none has > ever been independently verified. But this is not the case with conventional, > metal lattice cold fusion. In the case of cold fusion, we know that there is energy stored in the nuclear arrangements and it is just a question of whether we can tap into it. Therefore I don't consider this O/U. I have a "wait and see" on "anti-gravity" because it isn't necessarily an anti-conservative force (for instance, with electromagnets you can generate repulsive thrust by injecting electrical power.) I don't know much about ZPE, but it strikes me as a conservative force. Likewise magnetic O/U machines strike me as acting on conservative forces. Therefore they have a hard pull against the history of failures. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 09:51:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA08950; Tue, 20 May 1997 09:37:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:37:51 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:37:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970520123709_1490897473 emout19.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Patent Examiner Duggan? Resent-Message-ID: <"2EyP03.0.kB2.UDTWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace, You mentioned the patent examiner, Donovan F. Duggan. Who is he? What role has he played? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 09:56:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA06620; Tue, 20 May 1997 09:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:25:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199705201625.MAA17037 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <970520125359_100433.1541_GHQ54-1 CompuServe.COM> (message from Chris Tinsley on 20 May 97 08:54:00 EDT) Subject: Re: Computers and software Resent-Message-ID: <"oSPol3.0.Id1.j2TWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris said: > Yes, of course. But, hey, it's a hell of a story - innit? Would you > say this tale has *no* lessons for us? It is a hell of a story, but that is about all it is. If it has any lessons for us it is that anyone who tries real hard can write bad code. First do you know what a Bombe did? Basically take three or four rotors and attempt to brute force a solution. Since in the four rotor (Kreigsmarine) case you have 26^4 = 456976 possible starting settings. How long to test each one? Good but straightforward programming should take about 100 microseconds each test. Code and data should all be in cache, and you are doing basically 7 indexes into tables and a like number of additions mod 26 and increments. If the first character matches you need to try again, but that adds little to the time required--another 5%. Let's allow 1 millisecond, 457 seconds is 7.6 minutes. Now I've written the code, and while I've never run it on a Pentium on a much slower machine it averaged well under a minute. (I cheated: Start at the input and output characters map them through the first three rotors, then see if there is any matching fourth rotor offset. This trick doesn't help if you don't know the steckerboard settings.) Bombes were not that fast, so I'll accept 15 minutes for trying one "probable" word. In actuality, many words were tried, and a single message could use 6 to 7 hours of Bombe time, especially if the rotor set and steckerboard settings weren't known. I think there were 100 Bombes in Washington that were used on the Kreigsmarine messages, and fewer at Bletchly Park which were used on Luftwaffe and other three rotor messages. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 09:59:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA08215; Tue, 20 May 1997 09:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3381BBA9.C75DA71D verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:56:41 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Ucar means a dynamometer X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4dke41.0.G02.LETWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: >The measuring system figures gives the exact value of the >mechanical/passive losses as the NEWMAN motor/generator run >normally. Mechanical power measuring systems are called dynamometers. There are many different kinds No, I didn't mean dynamometer but you understood so, because I cut the letter. I had proposed an indirect method to measure the losses. In this configuration NEWMAN's motor was a passive mechanical load (it's driving and electrical power generation systems disabled). The aim is measuring the power of a secondary driver motor enough to sustain the NEWMAN motor at specified RPM. Below is the original letter. This is also my first letter to Newman, I am not aware of Evan Soule at all. Sorry for my poor English and it was worse at that time. <----------------------------------------> Subject: A way to measure friction losts Dear Newman, I read some of your articles about NEWMAN motor. You used a mathematical method for calculating mechanical losses when the motor is running in a certain speed. I prefer always directly measuring method if possible. In this experiment I propose a setup for this: 1) Connect mechanically an auxiliary AC/DC motor (at least able to give 200W mechanical power and the sufficient torque ) to your motor / generator. (If possible transfer the mechanical power from motor to your engine via a torquemeter/power-meter for measuring directly the power transferred. The motor output power could be adjusted freely by an electrical circuit. 2) Speed up rotor of your engine this way by running one of the motor or both. 3) After reaching the nominal speed (i.e 200 RPM) disconnect all power and the commutators from the NEWMAN motor to ensure no current is generated inside the coil. May some eddy currents or unwanted inductions occur, assume they are the part of losses. 4) Adjust the auxiliary motor input power so the NEWMAN motor run at steady speed without accelerate or decelerate. 5) Now measure the input power of the auxiliary motor. 6) Measure the output power using the values of torquemeter or the power-meter. If there no way to measure the mechanical output power directly there is two ways: First method: Measure the input power (name as Pl) Run the auxiliary motor freely at the same speed without connecting any load. Measure the input power. (name as Pf) Output mechanical power(Pm) transferred could be calculated by: Pm = ( Pl - Pf ) / efficiency factor This result will be correct as the efficiency figure is correct. It is assumed that the mechanical coupling of the motors is negligible. Second method: Connect auxiliary motor to an mechanical power measuring system. Adjust loads for obtaining the some speed (i.e. 200 RPM) and the same input power. The measuring system figures gives the exact value of the mechanical/passive losses as the NEWMAN motor/generator run normally. Yours sincerely, Hamdi Ucar hamdix verisoft.com.tr Sep 30,1996 <------------ End of the letter ------------> Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 10:03:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA13728; Tue, 20 May 1997 09:59:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:59:22 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:02:13 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Potapov not a fraud Resent-Message-ID: <"X2nMs2.0.QM3.gXTWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >To: Vortex > Mr. Rothwell writes in his post received 20 May 1997: >Akira Kawasaki says there is not sufficient evidence to accuse Potapov of >fraud. I do not accuse him of fraud. I accuse him of *acting exactly like a >fraud would act*. I say he is functionally equivalent to a fraud, for the >reasons the Kawasaki himself spells out: > snip--- > >- Jed Mr. Rothwell writes in his post received 19 May 1997: >I am willing to consider and reconsider any machine, from anyone, even >people I >am think are frauds, liars or lunatics, like Potapov..... ERS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 10:08:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA13659; Tue, 20 May 1997 09:59:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:59:14 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:01:44 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Independent Construction Resent-Message-ID: <"xudE6.0.IL3.XXTWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >At 05:54 PM 5/19/97 -0600, Evan Soule' wrote: > >>>Just what IS the hold up, Evan? >> >>Funding. And Joseph Newman has several potential funding sources which he >>is actively pursuing at this time. >> >>Scott -- I presume your office received the information I sent regarding >>the technology. > >Yes, we did, Evan....thanks. However we probably will not build our own >Newman device because it is certain to be different in many possibly >significant details from a genuine Newman device. Instead we wish to focus >our efforts on accurately measuring the power/energy balance of a genuine >Newman device. > >If we confirm Newman's claims, we will join you in seeking funding (it will >be a very short search!) for his technology. If we prove that his device is >not o-u then there can be no claim that we did not test the correct >device...only that we did not operate it correctly...and that could be >prevented by the training visit that Barry proposed. > >May we borrow a device for a relatively short while? > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little Dear Scott, One of the principal reasons why I sent your office the material was a result of the earlier post by your associate Dr. Puthoff, who wrote, "I would like to receive a copy, as we would consider building it." H. E. Puthoff, Ph.D. EarthTech Intern'l, Inc. 4030 W. Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin, TX 78759-5329 Joseph Newman was favorably impressed with the young man in Philadelphia who, by virtue of utilizing Joseph Newman's book (without, I would expect, the sophisticated equipment possessed by your facility -- and without the advantage of the Wiring & Construction Diagram, which was produced later) and several specific telephone conversations with Joseph Newman ----- produced his operational version of Joseph Newman's Motor/Generator. As the young man added, "I can envision hundreds of different designs employing the same basic principles." While I would assume that your testing experience would exceed in quality (if not in quantity) that performed by the demonstrated incompetence of several individuals at the (former) NBS, Joseph Newman may/may not (at least at this juncture) have a different assumption. If you would like to discuss your proposal with him, he may be reached directly at: (601) 947-7147 [best times, 9:30-10:30am/9-10pm M-F, Central Time] He may be leaving later this week for his Presentation at the Denver Energy Conference, so you may wish to reach him before/after the Presentation. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "I cannot conceive curved lines of force without the conditions of a physical existence in that intermediate space." --- MICHAEL FARADAY From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 10:10:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA13806; Tue, 20 May 1997 09:59:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:59:37 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:02:18 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech Resent-Message-ID: <"h8aP9.0.bN3.tXTWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Evan Soule' wrote: > >>Question: In arriving at the above conclusion, did you construct/test your >>own prototype or did you test a pre-existing model built by someone else? > --snip > >In may later latter at 6 Oct 1996: > > Dear Evan, > I received your mails. Thank you for your prompt response. > The letters that I'd send are about the experiments for measuring the > over-unity performance of the engine and procedure to remove the INPUT > POWER after the engine started up. If this procedure will work it will > be a direct evidence of FREE-ENERGY nature the engine. There will no > need to bother with efficiency figures and loss calculations. > > Please make sure that Mr. Newman read these letters! > > >Conclusion: > >In (1A) and (2A) report that you send to us state unable to measure >power figures which are key for proofing the excess energy. But in my >letters written more than 6 months ago as (1B) and (2B) I gave a method >to measure them. > >If my proposal was not considered technically and you still send us such >a report, the proof is self evident. > >Best Regards, > >Hamdi Ucar Dear Mr. Ucar, You have successfully missed the entire point of my sending the Report by Dr. Fitzgerald. Quite honestly, if this is the logic you employ, then I can appreciate why Joseph Newman (presumably) did not respond to your letters. The Fitzgerald was written _years_ before your letter(s) of 1996 and was based upon tests relating to the earliest prototypes --- the point of posting the testing was to simply indicate anomolies even on those very crude, early-designed prototypes. If you choose to make a connection between that earlier test and your letter(s), be my guest. In the context of their timing, it is illogical, at best. The facts remain that 1) you have not read his book, 2) you do not understand his Theory, 3) you do not understand his technical process, 4) you have not constructed a unit. These facts coupled with the following comment by yourself: "They are not capable to recharge the batteries which are connected." leads me to the conclusion that, in this instance, you clearly do not understand the nature of this technology. It is quite clear that Joseph Newman's Motor/Generator does indeed recharge the batteries as it provides mechanical torque. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "Planck's discovery of the quantum in 1900 drove a crack in the armor that still covers the deep and secret principles of existence. In the exploitation of that opening we are at the beginning, not the end. Someday, we'll understand the whole think as one single marvelous vision that will seem to overwhelming simple and beautiful that we will say to each other --- Oh, how could we have been so stupid for so long? How could it have been otherwise!" --- JOHN ARCHIBALD WHEELER "I am made humble by the realization of the Ingenious Workings of Our Universe." --- JOSEPH WESTLEY NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 10:36:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA20414; Tue, 20 May 1997 10:30:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:30:28 -0700 Date: 20 May 97 13:11:29 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Potapov not a fraud Message-ID: <970520171129_100433.1541_GHQ53-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Nybah1.0.u-4.o-TWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, > The test proposed by Potapov to Chris Tinsley was a farce. Chris > refused to have anything to do with it. Yes, it was. While I was in one of [sic] Potapov's factories, I did see an 'ideal' test rig - it can be seen on my video, and perhaps on my still photos as well. It was a water tank of dimensions very close (by eye) to 1 metre cube, with a Yusmar-1 connected up to it. This would have been close to an ideal test bed. One would only have needed to measure the temperature rise over a period of time, with a reasonable measurement of the electric power to the Yusmar's pump. But I wasn't given the opportunity to play with this gadget at all, and was pretty disappointed by the alternative I was offered - an installed system set up to heat a machine shop. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 10:56:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA15509; Tue, 20 May 1997 10:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3381C8C3.43EFF999 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:52:35 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mOjMm.0.Eo3.43UWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Soule, You wrote: > Dear Mr. Ucar, > > You have successfully missed the entire point of my sending the Report by > Dr. Fitzgerald. Quite honestly, if this is the logic you employ, then I > can appreciate why Joseph Newman (presumably) did not respond to your > letters. This is the last sentence of Dr. Fitzgerald's report: "I certainly believe that additional measurements, made under better controlled conditions, should be accomplished in order than an indisputable answer may be forthcoming." Where is the report that the additional measurements was done as suggested by Dr. Fitzgerald? If you have such a scientific report(s) having positive results (about excess power), please post it to us to correct the situation. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 10:56:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA25431; Tue, 20 May 1997 10:53:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:53:02 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:50:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Patent Examiner Duggan? Resent-Message-ID: <"vQg2f2.0.FD6.zJUWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Horace, > >You mentioned the patent examiner, Donovan F. Duggan. Who is he? What role >has he played? > >Tom Stolper Dear Tom, Donovan F. Duggan is the _proven_ technically incompetent patent examiner who originally attached the label of "perpetual motion" to Joseph Newman's technology. It was later discovered that he only cursorily reviewed Joseph Newman's extensive application and dismissed it as "perpetual motion." This action, in effect, relieved him of the intellectual responsibility to understand the technology without any pre-conceived bias. Duggan was also later _proven_ to be technologically incompetent in his field of responsibility. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "....whenever there is a stronger magnetic field merging with a weaker magnetic field, the true polarity of the weaker magnetic field should be stated with caution." --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 11:09:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA17329; Tue, 20 May 1997 10:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:49:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:50:43 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Ucar means a dynamometer Resent-Message-ID: <"sm1Az2.0.dE4.QGUWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To: Vortex > snip--- > >Apparently, in thirty years of work, Newman has never thought to perform the >kind of test the Wrights completed in an hour that afternoon, or the other, >more sophisticated dynamometry they performed countless times back in Dayton. >Scott or I or anyone familiar with elementary mechanics would have done such >tests 29 years and 363 days ago. They are fundamental to establishing the >claim. They cost practically nothing. Yet -- as I knew before Ucar's posting >-- such tests have not been done, or the results have been kept secret. This >kind of behavior leads sensible people to dismiss Newman. Meyer, Potapov and >the others have also refused to perform definitive tests. And, of course, the >people who think up think up crackpot reasons to dismiss cold fusion never >dare to test their ideas in a lab. > >- Jed Dear Mr. Rothwell, Once again you have demonstrated your aptitude in "running your mouth off" before you ascertain the relevant facts. The results of a Dynamometer Test conducted on one of Joseph Newman's Motor/Generators by scientists at Lawrence Technological University were published in the 7th Edition of his book, The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman. Results of the test indicated a 700% (production) efficiency level. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "The magnetic field measurements obtained at the Apollo sites combined with the high magnetic remanence found in rock samples returned from all the Apollo sites, demonstrate that the Moon is magnetized in all visited regions. I strongly predicted these results _before_ the first lunar landing, but these were _not_ the results predicted by the scientific community before the first lunar landing." --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 11:13:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA29613; Tue, 20 May 1997 11:10:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:10:01 -0700 Date: 20 May 97 14:05:04 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: particularly eloquent Message-ID: <970520180504_100433.1541_GHQ50-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"TJFvQ3.0.ZE7.uZUWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace, > The above excuse sounds very familiar. Maybe it is worthy of > being called the "tokamak excuse". One needs to move fast on Vortex. I was ready to post exactly that comment in response to Scott. It is perhaps a truism that the arguments one most despises from one's opponents are in frequent use on one's own side. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 11:15:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA28746; Tue, 20 May 1997 11:07:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:07:24 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970520140550_-1565941760 emout07.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: no way Scott Resent-Message-ID: <"FLyEv.0.317.RXUWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Little writes In the case of the Yusmar, it has now repeatedly been demonstrated NOT to be o-u. In my mind, this strikes a severe blow to the theories which suggest that cavitation is an o-u process. In view of other seemingly more promising areas of investigation, I would therefore recommend against further investment of time and energy into Dr P's "inventions". .............................................................................. .............. Scott the CETI beads contain at most 120 ev of energy. Not enough for conventional fusion. The cross section with light water is just about zero. So what then is happening? Its a reaction involving condensed electrons. When I came down to your site in 1991 Puthoff showed me what he and Ken Sholders were working in. He placed a sharp high voltage spike on the end of needle and was getting some extra energy. Yes, the device worked with electro Nernest pressure and shock. Every time he tried to scale up Puthoff failed. So what did I do. I tried the same trick under water. I reasoned that the inertial of the water would produce more shock. I got lots of little nitrogen bubbles but no extra energy. The effect of all of the little bubbles was stunning and its can be seen on my video at Potolemaic films. Stenger and I even tried the trick in ice. Again no go. Now, think a minute. Stan is doing about the same thing. Did he get it working or is he knocking air out of solution by shock as I had done. I know what came out of my experiment because it only worked with highly aireated water. Puthoff and Sholders only had one reaction site. Yury's process has at least 100,000 tiney sparkling little blue bubbles. I know this and will not give up. Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 11:17:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA18065; Tue, 20 May 1997 10:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3381D4CF.A587FC31 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:44:00 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OqEEt.0.6Q4.SKUWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Soule, You wrote: > Dear Mr. Ucar, > > You have successfully missed the entire point of my sending the Report by > Dr. Fitzgerald. Quite honestly, if this is the logic you employ, then I > can appreciate why Joseph Newman (presumably) did not respond to your > letters. This is the last sentence of Dr. Fitzgerald's report: "I certainly believe that additional measurements, made under better controlled conditions, should be accomplished in order than an indisputable answer may be forthcoming." Where is the report that the additional measurements was done as suggested by Dr. Fitzgerald? If you have such a scientific report(s) having positive results (about excess power), please post it to us to correct the situation. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 11:16:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA30116; Tue, 20 May 1997 11:13:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:13:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Inventor must provide device To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:12:57 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199705201236.HAA04850 natasha.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at May 20, 97 07:36:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zdCxD1.0.UM7.mcUWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > If we confirm Newman's claims, we will join you in seeking funding (it will > be a very short search!) Indeed. If you check Blacklight Power's home page, you will find that they already have collected $9 million in private offerings and another $2 million in the works. Anybody who really has a demonstrable system will be drenched in money (considering that BLP is still somewhat of a speculative bet.) The financial progress of BLP (regardless of their actual nearness to energy generation) puts the lie to these old hoary claims that O/U inventors with demonstrable devices can't get funding. It is apparent that they can't get funding because their devices don't work. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 11:22:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA31441; Tue, 20 May 1997 11:18:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:18:11 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Ucar means a dynamometer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:18:03 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <970520145332_72240.1256_EHB52-1 CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at May 20, 97 10:53:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kmABT3.0.6h7.YhUWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > gone, the brothers suspended one of the chain drives over a sprocket and > hung a bag of sand at each end of the chain. By measuring the amount of > weight on one side needed to lift that on the other, they calculated the > loss in transmission. As nearly as they could tell, this loss was even > less than the five per cent they had estimated. (p. 92) I don't pretend to be a mechanical engineer, but this sounds like a bad test because it is a static test rather than a dynamic test. Friction losses can disappear in static tests. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 11:26:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA31483; Tue, 20 May 1997 11:18:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:18:16 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:20:13 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech Resent-Message-ID: <"2DeTI.0.nh7.dhUWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Dear Soule', > >You wrote: > >> Dear Mr. Ucar, >> snip--- > >If you have such a scientific report(s) having positive results (about >excess power), please post it to us to correct the situation. > >Regards, > >Hamdi Ucar Dear Mr. Ucar, Many different additional measurements were applied to a variety of operational prototypes at different times. The following is one such Report: JOSEPH NEWMAN'S THEORY By Roger Hastings PhD Transcribed By George W. Dahlberg P.E. I do not intend to recapitulate the Theory presented in Newman's book, but rather to briefly provide my interpretation of his ideas. Newman began studying electricity and magnetism in the mid 1960's. He has a mechanical background, and was looking for a mechanical description of electromagnetic fields. That is, he assumed that there must be a mechanical interaction between, for example, two magnets. He could not find such a description in any book, and decided that he would have to provide his own explanation. He came to the conclusion that if electromagnetic fields consisted of tiny spinning particles moving at the speed of light along the field lines, then he could explain all standard electromagnetic phenomena through the interaction of spinning particles. Since the spinning particles interact in the same way as gyroscopes, he called the particles gyroscopic particles. In my opinion, such spinning particles do provide a qualitative description of electromagnetic phenomena, and his model is useful in understanding complex electrical situations (note that without a pictorial model one must rely solely upon mathematical equations which can become extremely complex). Given that electromagnetic fields consist of matter in motion, or kinetic energy, Joe decided that it should be possible to tap this kinetic energy. He likes to say: "How long did man sit next to a stream before he invented the paddle wheel?" Joe built a variety of unusual devices to tap the kinetic energy in electromagnetic fields before he arrived at his present motor design. He likes to point out that both Maxwell and Faraday, the pioneers of electromagnetism, believed that the fields consisted of matter in motion. This is stated in no uncertain terms in Maxwell's book "A Dynamical Theory of the Electromagnetic Field". In fact, Maxwell used a dynamical model to derive his famous equations. This fact has all but been lost in current books on electromagnetic theory. The quantity which Maxwell called "electromagnetic momentum" is now referred to as the "vector potential". Going further, Joe realized that when a magnetic field is created, its gyroscopic particles must come from the atoms of the materials which created the field. Thus he decided that all matter must consist of the same gyroscopic particles. For example, when a voltage is applied to a wire, Newman pictures gyroscopic particles (which I will call gyrotons for short) moving down the wire at the speed of light. These gyrotons line up the electrons in the wire. The electrons themselves consist of a swirling mass of gyrotrons, and their matter fields combine when lined up to form the magnetic lines of force circulating around the wire. In this process, the wire has literally lost some of its mass to the magnetic field, and this is accounted for by Einstein's equation of energy equals mass times the square of the speed of light. According to Einstein, every conversion of energy involves a corresponding conversion of matter. According to Newman, this may be interpreted as an exchange of gyrotrons. For example, if two atoms combine to give off light, the atoms would weight slightly less after the reaction than before. According to Newman, the atoms have combined and given off some of their gyrotrons in the form of light. Thus Einstein's equation is interpreted as a matter of counting gyrotrons. These particles cannot be created or destroyed in Newman's theory, and they always move at the speed of light. My interpretation of Newman's original idea for his motor is as follows. As a thought experiment, suppose one made a coil consisting of 186,000 miles of wire. An electrical field would require one second to travel the length of the wire, or in Newman's language, it would take one second for gyrotons inserted at one end of the wire to reach the other end. Now suppose that the polarity of the applied voltage was switched before the one second has elapsed, and this polarity switching was repeated with a period less than one second. Gyrotons would become trapped in the wire, as their number increased, so would the alignment of electrons and the number of gyrotons in the magnetic field increase. The intensified magnetic field could be used to do work on an external magnet, while the input current to the coil would be small or non-existent. Newman's motors contain up to 55 miles of wire, and the voltage is rapidly switched as the magnet rotates. He elaborates upon his theory in his book, and uses it to interpret a variety of physical phenomena. DATA ON THE NEWMAN MOTOR Joseph Newman demonstrated one of his motor prototypes in Washington, D.C.. The motor consisted of a large coil wound as a solenoid, with a large magnet rotating within the bore of the solenoid. Power was supplied by a bank of six volt lantern batteries. The battery voltage was switched to the coil through a commutator mounted on the shaft of the rotating magnet. The commutator switched the polarity of the voltage across the coil each half cycle to keep a positive torque on the rotating magnet. In addition, the commutator was designed to break and remake the voltage contact about 30 times per cycle. Thus the voltage to the coil was pulsed. The speed of the magnet rotation was adjusted by covering up portions of the commutator so that pulsed voltage was applied for a fraction of a cycle. Two speeds were demonstrated: 12 R.P.M. for which 12 pulses occurred each revolution; and 120 rpm for which all commutator segments were firing. The slower speed was used to provide clear oscilloscope pictures of currents and voltages. The fast speed was used to demonstrate the potential power of the motor. Energy outputs consisted of incandescent bulbs in series with the batteries, fluorescent tubes across the coil, and a fan powered by a belt attached to the shaft of the rotor. Relevant motor parameters are given below: Coil weight : 9000 lbs. Coil length : 55 miles of copper wire Coil Inductance: 1,100 Henries measured by observing the current rise time when a D.C. voltage was applied. Coil resistance: 770 Ohms Coil Height : about 4 ft. Coil Diameter : slightly over 4 ft. I.D. Magnet weight : 700 lbs. Magnet Radius : 2 feet Magnet geometry: cylinder rotating about its perpendicular axis Magnet Moment of Inertia: 40 kg-sq.m. (M.K.S.) computed as one third mass times radius squared Battery Voltage: 590 volts under load Battery Type : Six volt Ray-O-Vac lantern batteries connected in series A brief description of the measurements taken and distributed at the press conference follows. When the motor was rotating at 12 rpm, the average D.C. input current from the batteries was about 2 milli-amps, and the average battery input was then 1.2 watts. The back current (flowing against the direction of battery current) was about -55 milli-amps, for an average charging power of -32 watts. The forward and reverse current were clearly observable on the oscilloscope. It was noted that when the reverse current flowed, the battery voltage rose above its ambient value, verifying that the batteries were charging. The magnitude of the charging current was verified by heating water with a resistor connected in series with the batteries. A net charging power was the primary evidence used to show that the motor was generating energy internally, however output power was also observed. The 55 m-amp current flowing in the 770 ohm coil generates 2.3 watts of heat, which is in excess of the input power. In addition, the lights were blinking brightly as the coil was switched. The back current from the coil switched from zero to negative several amps in about 1 milli-second, and then decayed to zero in about 0.1 second. Given the coil inductance of 1100 henries, the switching voltages were several million volts. Curiously, the back current did not switch on smoothly, but increased in a staircase. Each step in the staircase corresponded to an extremely fast switching of current, with each increase in the current larger than the previous increase. The width of the stairs was about 100 micro-seconds, which for reference is about one third of the travel time of light through the 55 mile coil. Mechanical losses in the rotor were measured as follows: The rotor was spun up by hand with the coil open circuited. An inductive pick-up loop was attached to a chart recorder to measure the rate of decay of the rotor. The energy stored in the rotor (one half the moment of inertia times the square of the angular velocity) was plotted as a function of time. The slope of this curve was measured at various times and gave the power loss in the rotor as a function of rotor speed. The result of these measurements is given in the following table: Rotor Speed Power Dissipation Power/(Speed Squared) radian/sec watts watts/(rad/sec)^2 4.0 6.3 0.39 3.7 5.8 0.42 3.3 5.0 0.46 3.0 3.5 0.39 2.1 2.0 0.45 1.7 1.2 0.42 1.2 0.7 0.47 The data is consistent with power loss proportional to the square of the angular speed, as would be expected at low speeds. When the rotor moves fast enough so that air resistance is important, the losses would begin to increase as the cube of the angular speed. Using power = 0.43 times the square of the angular speed will give a lower bound on mechanical power dissipation at all speeds. When the rotor is moving at 12 rpm, or 1.3 rad/sec, the mechanical loss is 0.7 watts. When the rotor was sped up to 120 rpm by allowing the commutator to fire on all segments, the results were quite dramatic. The lights were blinking rapidly and brightly, and the fan was turning rapidly. The back current spikes were about ten amps, and still increased in a staircase, with the width of the stairs still about 100 micro-seconds. Accurate measurements of the input current were not obtained at that time, however I will report measurements communicated to me by Mr. Newman. At a rotation rate of 200 rpm (corresponding to mechanical losses of at least 190 watts), the input power was about 6 watts. The back current in this test was about 0.5 amps, corresponding to heating in the coil of 190 watts. As a final point of interest, note that the Q of his coil at 200 rpm is about 30. If his battery plus commutator is considered as an A.C. power source, then the impedance of the coil at 200 rpm is 23,000 henries, and the power factor is 0.03. In this light, the predicted input power at 700 volts is less than one watt! MATHEMATICAL DESCRIPTION OF NEWMAN'S MOTOR Since I am preparing this document on my home computer, it will be convenient to use the Basic computer language to write down formulas. The notation is * for multiply, / for divide, ^ for raising to a power, and I will use -dot to represent a derivative. Newton's second law of motion applied to Newman's rotor yields the following equation: MI*TH-dot-dot + G*TH-dot = K*I*SIN(TH) (1) where MI = rotor moment of inertia TH = rotor angular position (radians) G = rotor decay constant K = torque coupling constant I = coil current In general the constant G may depend upon rotor speed, as when air resistance becomes important. The term on the right hand side of the equation represents the torque delivered to the rotor when current flows through the coil. A constant friction term was found through measurement to be small compared to the TH-dot term at reasonable speeds, but can be included in the "constant" G. The equation for the current in the coil is given by: L*I-dot + R*I = V(TH) - K*(TH-dot)*SIN(TH) (2) where L = coil inductance I = coil current R = coil resistance V(TH) = voltage applied to coil by the commutator which is a function of the angle TH K = rotor induction constant In general, the resistance R is a function of voltage, particularly during commutator switching when the air resistance breaks down creating a spark. Note that the constant K is the same in equations (1) and (2). This is required by energy conservation as discussed below. To examine energy considerations, multiply Equation (1) by TH-dot, and Equation (2) by I. Note that the last term in each equation is then identical if the K's are the same. Eliminating the last term between the two equations yields the instantaneous conservation law: I*V=R*I^2 + G*(TH-dot)^2 + .5*L*(I^2)-dot + .5*MI*((TH-dot)^2)-dot If this equation is averaged over one cycle of the rotor, then the last two terms vanish when steady state conditions are reached (i.e. when the current and speed repeat their values at angular positions which are separated by 360 degrees). Denoting averages by < >, the above equation becomes: = + (3) This result is entirely general, independent of any dependencies of R and G on other quantities. The term on the left represents the input power. The first term on the right is the power dissipated in the coil, and the second term is the power delivered to the rotor. The efficiency, defined as power delivered to the rotor divided by input power is thus always less than one by Equation (3). This result does require, however, that the constants K in equation (1) and equation (2) are identical. If the constant K in equation (2) is smaller than the constant K appearing in equation (1), then it may be verified that the efficiency can mathematically be larger than unity. What do the constants, K, mean? In the first equation, we have the torque delivered to the magnet, while in the second equation we have the back inductance or reaction of the magnet upon the coil. The equality of the constants is an expression of Newton's third law. How could the constants be unequal? Consider the sequence of events which occur during the firing of the commutator. First the contact breaks, and the magnetic field in the coil collapses, creating a huge forward spike of current through the coil and battery. This current spike provides an impulsive torque to the rotor. The rotor accelerates, and the acceleration produces a changing magnetic field which propagates through the coil, creating the back EMF. Suppose that the commutator contacts have separated sufficiently when the last event occurs to prevent the back current from flowing to the battery. Then the back reaction is effectively smaller than the forward impulsive torque on the rotor. This suggestion invokes the finite propagation time of the electromagnetic fields, which has not been included in Equations (1) and (2). A continued mathematical modeling of the Newman motor should include the effects of finite propagation time, particularly in his extraordinary long coil of wire. I have solved Equations (1) and (2) numerically, and note that the solutions require finer and finer step size as the inductance, moment of inertia, and magnet strength are increased to large values. The solutions break down such that the motor "takes off" in the computer, and this may indicate instabilities, which could be mediated in practice by external perturbations. I am confident that Maxwell's equations , with the proper electro-mechanical coupling, can provide an explanation to the phenomena observed in the Newman device. The electro-mechanical coupling may be embedded in the Maxwell equations if a unified picture (such as Newman's picture of gyroscopic particles) is adopted. Roger Hastings, PhD Principal Physicist, Unisys Corp. Former Associate Professor of Physics North Dakota State University ______________________________ Posted by: Evan Soule' josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 "The natural, inertia effect of an Obvious mass is a result of the 'speed' of the gyroscopic-action-particle which is the basic building entity of all mass." --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 11:52:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA03821; Tue, 20 May 1997 11:48:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:48:31 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:54:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Rothwell Criteria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2xspP2.0.dx.-7VWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 19 May 1997, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 4:21 PM 5/19/97, Jed Rothwell wrote: > [snip] > > > >1. Won't submit to independent verification. > >3. Won't publish. > >3. Won't even test it himself. > [snip] > > > >- Jed > > If no one has claim to the above, or objects, I'd like to suggest we call > them the Rothwell Criteria. Extending the concept, one might say someone > is a 2 on the "Rothwell Scale" if they fulfill 2 of the 3 Rothwell > Criteria. What thinks you all? > Regards, > Horace Heffner > Arm Raised in Favor (AYE!) Wish though, it was a 5 or 10'er scale... but independent verification covers most of the other dead ends we get. ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2 freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 12:04:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA05360; Tue, 20 May 1997 11:59:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:59:30 -0700 Date: 20 May 97 14:56:30 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Beach sand dynamometer Message-ID: <970520185629_72240.1256_EHB33-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"NPX8z1.0.bJ1.HIVWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex John Logajan comments on this quote from the Kelly book: ". . . the brothers suspended one of the chain drives over a sprocket and hung a bag of sand at each end of the chain. By measuring the amount of weight on one side needed to lift that on the other, they calculated the loss in transmission." John writes: I don't pretend to be a mechanical engineer, but this sounds like a bad test because it is a static test rather than a dynamic test. Friction losses can disappear in static tests. That occured to me too, and I am sure W. & O. considered it. In any case, they also performed a direct test of the thrust of the motors, described by Crouch, p. 261: The first test was a severe disappointment -- only 306 revolutions per minute. The figure rose to 333 rpm after some tinkering with the engine and continued to climb during subsequent tests. In order to gauge the thrust, they placed the machine on a section of rail and attached it to a rope running over a pulley to a fifty-pound box of sand. With the engine running, they allowed the craft to inch forward. It lifted the sand and exerted an additional pull of sixteen to eighteen pounds. A few seconds of calculation revealed that the propellers were producing 132 to 136 pounds of thrust at 350 rpm. Chanute had been wrong -- the machine should fly. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 12:06:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA05981; Tue, 20 May 1997 12:02:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:02:31 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:00:00 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Patent Examiner Duggan? Resent-Message-ID: <"1Dfnt2.0.NT1.6LVWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:37 PM 5/20/97, Tstolper aol.com wrote: >Horace, > >You mentioned the patent examiner, Donovan F. Duggan. Who is he? What role >has he played? > >Tom Stolper It is clear that you must not read Even Soule's posts! There has been a consistant theme for at least a couple years in those posts of criticising Donovan F. Duggan for rejecting Joe Newman's claims on the basis that he is attempting to patent a perpetual motion machine. Ironic that now we consider building a perpetual motion machine, at Greg Watson's urging, based entirely on US Patent 4,215,330 examined by Donovan F. Duggan. What a script. What a play! "Let me play the fool. With mirth and laughter let old wrinkles come ..." Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 12:09:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA23892; Tue, 20 May 1997 11:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:39:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:36:12 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Inventor must provide device Resent-Message-ID: <"9whoe3.0.Dr5.g_UWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: snip-- > >It is apparent that they can't get funding because their devices >don't work. > >-- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - Dear John, It is apparent that you arrive at conclusions without all the data. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "Even the slightest degree alteration in atomic-axis-alignment can produce a significant change in results obtained." --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 12:22:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA09190; Tue, 20 May 1997 12:19:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:19:54 -0700 Message-Id: <3381E8A8.C5AB507A verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:08:40 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wixyq.0.WF2.PbVWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex, I am sorry for I had allocated some bandwidth for such a discussion with Evan Soule may never ends. I will not comment the last posting of Evan Soule(2) which is supposed to be a scientific report that I asked in my previous posting(1). >From (1): > This is the last sentence of Dr. Fitzgerald's report: > > "I certainly believe that additional measurements, made under better > controlled conditions, should be accomplished in order than an > indisputable answer may be forthcoming." > > Where is the report that the additional measurements was done as > suggested by Dr. Fitzgerald? > > If you have such a scientific report(s) having positive results (about > excess power), please post it to us to correct the situation. If anyone who is not already familiar with this report(2) may read and judge it whether it complies with the last sentence of Dr. Fitzgerald. Reference (1): Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:44:00 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Reference (2): Subject: Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:18:17 -0700 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:20:13 -0600 From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 12:40:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA11918; Tue, 20 May 1997 12:37:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:37:51 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705201431.ZM19758 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:31:33 -0500 In-Reply-To: Hamdi Ucar "Re: "Perpetual motion" a figure of speech" (May 20, 2:19pm) References: <3381E8A8.C5AB507A verisoft.com.tr> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Perpetual Conversation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"a2AHQ3.0.7w2.EsVWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On May 20, 2:19pm, Hamdi Ucar wrote: > I am sorry for I had allocated some bandwidth for such a discussion with > Evan Soule may never ends. Learn from it. The only thing perpetual going on here is this conversation. -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 12:56:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA14620; Tue, 20 May 1997 12:53:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:53:15 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <33820120.919 math.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:53:04 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: particularly eloquent References: <199705201229.HAA04486 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MyuWL1.0.Ha3.g4WWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > > Here's another jewel, Eric: > > This one almost works...I am now building a BIGGER one! > Hey, I resent that! (sounds like a slam on the tokamak program :-) -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 13:00:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA15316; Tue, 20 May 1997 12:56:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:56:31 -0700 Date: 20 May 97 15:33:50 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Inventor must provide device Message-ID: <970520193350_72240.1256_EHB124-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Gd0KI1.0.Cl3.j7WWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex John Logajan is exactly right, as usual: Anybody who really has a demonstrable system will be drenched in money (considering that BLP is still somewhat of a speculative bet.) Yeah, even people who alienate potential investors get funded. I know several. I won't name names . . . Their machines are interesting but their manners are atrocious and their business sense nonexistent. Yet they get funding. The financial progress of BLP (regardless of their actual nearness to energy generation) puts the lie to these old hoary claims that O/U inventors with demonstrable devices can't get funding. It is apparent that they [Newman?] can't get funding because their devices don't work. Right on all points. Early on, BLP worked with Thermacore, a respected company in the field of thermal engineering. Thermacore's impressive presentations gave BLP credibility. But I would like to point out that there are some innovative machines, like Mizuno's proton conductors, which cannot be demonstrated because they only work now and then. As Bockris says, they work at 2 a.m. on Sunday after the professor who stayed for a week to watch the cell finally gave up and went home. It is nearly impossible to get funding for this kind of device. That is a darn shame. With a little funding and two or three people working full time we might see big progress with some of these approaches. What we have now is Mizuno teaching full time and doing three different CF experiments in his spare moments, and Oriani who did some good experiments last year, but he has gone on to something else. So we have 0.2 people working on these proton conductors. Years ago Biberian was testing another type. If CF is ever accepted by the general public and the scientific establishment, and hundreds of millions of dollars flow into the research, I hope we see 20 people working on Mizuno's proton conductors, and 20 working on the E-Quest type machine, and maybe 30 on the Arata design. Then we would learn what these marginal-yet-promising devices are really capable of. Here is what I would hate: millions flowing into the research and thousands of people doing the 1989 Pons and Fleischmann solid palladium experiment! That's more or less what NEDO has done. It's worse -- they do it wrong! Newman, of course, has no excuse. He claims that the machine works on demand. Therefore he should be able to show it, lend it to people like Scott Little, and sell copies to people like me. It is nothing like a proton conductor. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 13:13:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA03611; Tue, 20 May 1997 12:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3381FFBE.749C math.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:47:10 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The triumph of hope over experience References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JbR1o3.0.Ku.A0WWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > > Zenergy Corp > Director Mike Fisher: > > "... we know [OU devices] are > out there and ... will in due course prove to be viable" > > These guys ... believe without evidence that such successful > devices are either already out there Reminds of the old joke among hot fusion scientists that "(Hot) Fusion is ten years away...and always will be." I guess for "OU scientists" the joke should be "OU power devices are already out there somewhere...and always will be." I believe this expresses the fundamental psychological distinction between the two camps: hope vs. delusion :-). -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 13:18:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA04068; Tue, 20 May 1997 12:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338200B2.38FC math.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:51:14 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank References: <970520102424_100433.1541_GHQ40-2 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jF-EU2.0.U_._3WWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > > What bothers me is the way you seem to be avoiding these matters. It > makes me feel that you are not being objective. That lowers your > credibility (at least, it does with me). > > Chris Not avoiding. My science research has real and imaginary parts, and CF is the imaginary part. :-). I've been busy with the real part the last few weeks. Also, note that even as CF goes, I spend a lot of time on other things, like copying the CETI cell, or more recently replicating Joe Champions work. Reading papers is only a small part of all that, and it all has to fit into the weekends. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 13:20:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA18145; Tue, 20 May 1997 13:16:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:16:15 -0700 Date: 20 May 97 16:07:47 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: no way, Frank Message-ID: <970520200746_72240.1256_EHB50-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"fX6D52.0.RR4.EQWWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Frank Z. writes: Scott the CETI beads contain at most 120 ev of energy. Says who?!? Where did you get this information from, Frank? Did someone run the beads until they stopped producing energy? Dennis Cravens says that in some cases they have run until most of the metal in the thin film is transmuted, but that is a different story. That cannot be a limiting factor. I believe many of those transmutations absorb energy! They want to turn them off to get more heat. God only knows how you turn these things on and off, but there must be controlling factors, because they come up with different mixes of peculiar elements and unnatural isotopes. The whole thing looks so complicated I am afraid it will cost billions of dollars to sort it out. Three guys and a dog (Miley, Patterson & Cravens) will never get a handle on it. CETI's research plans are nowhere near ambitious enough. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 13:54:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA23754; Tue, 20 May 1997 13:48:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:48:36 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:48:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705202048.PAA24118 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: no way Scott Resent-Message-ID: <"37h4h.0.4p5.ZuWWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 14:06 5/20/97 -0400, FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: >Scott the CETI beads contain at most 120 ev of energy. Not enough for >conventional fusion. The cross section with light water is just about zero. > So what then is happening? You are playing right into my hand, Frank. Yes, let us establish WHAT is happening in the CETI cell first....then we can work on WHY. Maybe I'm weird but I don't take what Miley and Cravens claim to have observed as truth until several more labs have confirmed it. In fact, that's what we're trying to do right now with our Rifex kit...and we are still plugging away at it...waiting for replicate analyses of the Li2SO4 electrolyte right now. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 14:09:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA26392; Tue, 20 May 1997 14:05:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:05:41 -0700 Message-ID: <3382124B.1566 interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:06:19 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ucar means a dynamometer References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"da_Ue2.0.ES6.a8XWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > > I don't pretend to be a mechanical engineer, but this sounds like a bad > test because it is a static test rather than a dynamic test. Friction > losses can disappear in static tests. > Good point, John. Also, "motoring" an electric motor with no electrical input also provides only limited info on it's "under power" characteristics. A dyno is still the best way. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 14:32:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA30802; Tue, 20 May 1997 14:28:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:28:28 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3382176D.1EA0 math.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:28:13 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Patent Examiner Duggan? References: <970520123709_1490897473 emout19.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"22GYa.0.CX7.xTXWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tstolper aol.com wrote: > > > You mentioned the patent examiner, Donovan F. Duggan. > Who is he? What role has he played? > > Tom Stolper NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Don't unleash this discussion here again! Stop it while you still can. Personally, I think there should be a new policy for Vortex: anyone who (i) claims to be in possesion of a fully function OU device, and (ii) claims to want independent verification, but (iii) is currently unwilling to provide a device for testing at EarthTech or a similar neutral testing site, should be banned from posting here. They a just a nuisance. Also banned from vortex should by people with (i) but without (ii). They are also a useless nuicance. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 15:46:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA14431; Tue, 20 May 1997 15:39:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:39:43 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:41:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Reflection and Statement Resent-Message-ID: <"3H21O2.0.KX3.jWYWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To: Vortex > >John Logajan is exactly right, as usual: > snip--> >Newman, of course, has no excuse. He claims that the machine works on demand. >Therefore he should be able to show it, lend it to people like Scott Little, >and sell copies to people like me. It is nothing like a proton conductor. > >- Jed Mr. Rothwell, This is more of the same ignorant statements from yourself. You began this most recent interchange with your initiated and insulting comment regarding Joseph Newman which serves only to reflect upon your own ignorance. He has repeatedly demonstrated the operability of his technology. As to accusations of "despicableness," I would strong recommend that you observe this operational characteristic by studying your own reflection. Evan Soule' And for the more recent arrivals -- Statement by Joseph Newman NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS Route 1, Box 52, Lucedale, MS 39452 (601) 947-7147 Email: josephnewman earthlink.net To those objective and honest people who have corresponded to Evan Soule' on the Internet concerning the Energy Machine of Joseph Newman: I write the following for you only to help you truly understand the truth. 1) The facts of history prove that the conventional science of the times has been blatantly biased and prejudiced against New Discoveries. This is now the case! 2) The scientists of 1820 were so biased in their pious teachings of the time, e.g., "There is NO connection between MAGNETISM and ELECTRICITY!", that they would not even place a magnet parallel with a copper wire and make a circuit. The reason that they would not do so is because they were so biased in their view that a conductor should behave exactly like conventional magnetic materials (such as iron) that they would only place a magnet at right angles to a conductor and then make a circuit to a battery. As a result, the magnet remained at right angles to the conductor. Triumphantly, the professor at the time (such as Oersted) would tell young students: "See -- there is NO connection between magnetism and electricity." As every engineering student in college knew, two magnets placed at right angles to one another and then released, would instantly align parallel with one another. As to perfectly exemplify the biases and prejudices of the scientists of the times, history says it for me: One of the most significant discoveries of the human race was made in the classroom as a result of a student arranging the above-described-test BACKWARDS to the original directions provided by his professor, Oersted. The student arranged the magnet _parallel_ to the _conductor wire_ and when Oersted completed the circuit to the battery, INSTANTLY THE MAGNETIC PIVOTED TO RIGHT ANGLES with the CONDUCTOR. Such action proved that there WAS INDEED A CONNECTION BETWEEN MAGNETISM AND ELECTRICITY. The scientific community throughout Europe was astounded and many thinking individuals were excited. Note: Such scientists were so totally biased in their minds that a CONDUCTOR should act EXACTLY AS MAGNETIC MATERIALS that they could not see the truth until a young student literally 'goofed up' their original incorrect instructions which were accepted as the learned knowledge of the time. Note: If one learns from one's mistakes, then the scientific community of 1820 should have been rendered humble by its error. History has proven that they were not so humbled! I say this because members of the scientific community continued to make the same, biased mistakes --- back-to-back! Explanation: Since these members of the scientific community observed that the magnet would not be affected by the conductor unless the current was flowing --- then, these members of the scientific community did EXACTLY THE SAME THING AGAIN* when they ONCE AGAIN WRONGLY CONCLUDED: "The conductor was dormant like a water pipe carrying water and the magnetic field comes only from the current." [*These members of the scientific community still in their minds --- even to this day --- wanted the conductor to behave like conventional magnetic materials and affect the magnet.] Note: If the members of the scientific community were truly made humble by their first blatant mistake, then they would have concluded: "A CONDUCTOR DOES NOT ACT LIKE CONVENTIONAL MAGNETIC MATERIALS: BUT TOTALLY OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE EXPECTED AND AS A RESULT WE WILL MAKE NO SNAP JUDGEMENTS ABOUT A CONDUCTOR UNDER ANY TEST." History proves that they have done the opposite. A Special Master and Technical Expert hired by a Federal Court to evaluate my technology concluded that the Plaintiff (Joseph Newman), "PRESENTED OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE THAT THE INVENTION WORKS --- THERE IS NO CONTRADICTORY FACTUAL EVIDENCE." I proved that the MAGNETIC FIELD OF A CONDUCTOR COMES FROM THE CONDUCTOR and NOT the current! It has now been 32 years since I, as a young man, started my life's work for humanity. My fundamental book, THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN, proves that I have developed not only a New Energy Source but also a Unified Field Theory. This fact was first brought to my attention by scientific colleagues of Dr. Robert Smith who, at the time (in the late 1970s), was Chief of Space and Environmental Research of NASA at Huntsville, Alabama. These individuals stated, in essence, that "they would not began to attempt to debate with me and wished to compliment me on my efforts to develop a Unified Field Theory." Fact: I had not pursued my work in electromagnetism with this purpose (of unifying the fields) in mind. To the contrary --- I was totally committed to finding the truth about magnetism and therefore in my honesty, as I made new discoveries, I automatically applied them to providing answers to general mechanical questions in science for which there were NO MECHANICAL EXPLANATION: 1) Why do magnets mechanically attract and repel? 2) Why, mechanically, if one pushes a conductor downward at right angles to the lines of force of a magnet does the current produced travel in ONE GIVEN DIRECTION and then, if one pushes the same conductor upwards, the produced current travels in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION? 3) Why, mechanically, if one flips the magnet over 180 degrees and repeats the test in (2), does one obtain results which are exactly opposite to test (2)? 4) And of extreme mechanical importance: Why, mechanically, when the conductor is pushed down or up parallel with the lines of force of a magnet --- NO MATTER HOW VIGOROUS THE MOTION OF THE CONDUCTOR (as long as parallel to the lines of force) --- is there NO CURRENT PRODUCED? HOW DOES THE CURRENT "KNOW" WHICH WAY TO TRAVEL --- OR NOT TO TRAVEL AT ALL? 5) Why, mechanically, can one move a conductor at a "snail's pace" at right angles to a magnetic field and suddenly, the CURRENT will travel at basically the SPEED OF LIGHT? [allowing for resistance] 6) Why, mechanically, does light sometimes behave as a "particle" and at other times as a "wave?" 7) Why, mechanically, is there a particular angle to the Earth's True Axis towards the Sun? And many additional questions relating to astronomical/gravitational observations..... 8) What is the BASIC, MECHANICAL, BUILDING ENTITY OF ALL MATTER? 9) What is GRAVITY? 10) What is INERTIA? Fact: In my fundamental book I answer ALL OF THE ABOVE QUESTIONS (and many more) with ONE SIMPLE MECHANICAL EXPLANATION: THE GYROSCOPIC PARTICLE! [Such is accomplished by applying the mechanically known laws of a gyroscope!] Example: Consider the question of why light behaves as both a "particle" and a "wave." The gyroscopic composition of all matter is a real, mechanical, gyroscopic particle and reacts to pressure. Light acts as a particle travelling through larger to smaller holes, except that with extremely small holes light mechanically acts as a wave. Of course, just like fluids or gases travelling through extremely small holes, the pressure increases. So too with light. The pressure causes the gyroscopic particles of light to mechanically act as a wave. [Refer to pages 171 to 179 of my book.] The consistent, single mechanical explanation of the Gyroscopic Particle explaining the composition of a magnetic field automatically led me to apply such mechanical effects to the subject of Astronomy. The mechanical nature of the gyroscopic particle provides specific answers to such astronomical questions. The chances that my work --- through years of dedicated study, thought, experimentation, and application of a single mechanical explanation to numerous unexplained facts of science by the use of the known laws of the gyroscope applied to the gyroscopic-particle-composition of all matter --- is only an accident, especially in view of the fact that there is NO mechanical explanation provided for these numerous observations (but only mathematical observations of their RESULTS) .... is, as the statisticians of NASA, as stated by Dr. Robert Smith, said: "THE CHANCES OF JOSEPH NEWMAN BEING WRONG WERE ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE." All of my work is clearly and lovingly provided in 470 pages of my book, The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman, written for Humanity. To those thinking people who strive to help me, I salute you. And to Darryl Bonz and Evan Soule' --- Thanks! Joseph Westley Newman "Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." --- ANDREW J. GALAMBOS "The natural, inertia effect of an Obvious mass is a result of the 'speed' of the gyroscopic-action-particle which is the basic building entity of all mass." --- JOSEPH W. NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 15:56:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA16834; Tue, 20 May 1997 15:50:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:50:17 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <33822A9C.512B math.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:50:04 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: potapov not a fraud References: <970519195508_35985333 emout05.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6_GI1.0.y64.dgYWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > > To really do the job I need more funds and more help. > That what I going to ask NASA for. Reality break: unless you have a special friend in control of NASA funds, there is no way NASA is going to fund you. >From a peer review point of view, your ideas are speculative at best, and more likely taken to be crank theories, and you are totally lacking in scientific credentials suggesting you are worthy of carrying out such a project. I mean, just a month ago you were estimating enormous amounts of fusion in a cavitation bubble, and then a few days later after getting corrected on you math and physics, you discover only infinitesimal amounts of fusion are predicted. You just finished you first course in nuclear physics! Anyone whos grasp of the relevant physics is in such a state of flux, and who has no prior history of success to judge by, is not qualified to receive a big chunk of public money that is simultaneously sought after by many qualified scientists with real, intriguing ideas of their own. If you want funding for your Quixotic quest, I suggest you look for private sources, where peer review---nor anything else!---is not a criteria. You are wasting your time looking for funding from mainstream scientific sources (unless, as I say, you happen to have an especially good friend in the right place...) -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 16:04:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA25664; Tue, 20 May 1997 15:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:39:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:41:19 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Patent Examiner Duggan? Resent-Message-ID: <"bf8Dj2.0.wG6.qWYWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 12:37 PM 5/20/97, Tstolper aol.com wrote: >>Horace, >> >>You mentioned the patent examiner, Donovan F. Duggan. Who is he? What role >>has he played? >> >>Tom Stolper > > > >It is clear that you must not read Even Soule's posts! There has been a >consistant theme for at least a couple years in those posts of criticising >Donovan F. Duggan for rejecting Joe Newman's claims on the basis that he is >attempting to patent a perpetual motion machine. Ironic that now we >consider building a perpetual motion machine, at Greg Watson's urging, >based entirely on US Patent 4,215,330 examined by Donovan F. Duggan. What >a script. What a play! > >"Let me play the fool. With mirth and laughter let old wrinkles come ..." > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner As to Donovan F. Duggan -- when he thinks he's right, he's right for the wrong reason or wrong for the right reason. Of course, with such a proven, technical incompetent why should one expect any less? "Through every rift of discovery some seeming anomaly drops out of the darkness, and falls, as a golden link, into the great chain of order...." Sincerely, Evan Soule' From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 16:13:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA24834; Tue, 20 May 1997 15:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:32:28 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970520183035_-364517082 emout19.mail.aol.com> To: 76570.2270 compuserve.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: tv show Resent-Message-ID: <"Izw061.0.y36.uPYWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I saw a rerun of a Popular Science show form 1937 Paramont Shields Pictures Popular Scince Monthly on AMC movie Memories last week. In the show an inventor found a way to make hydrogen from sunlight. I tried to do the same before I got involved with ZPE. I found that thermal/electrical processes were not economic and that sunlight did not have enough energy to dissociate water. I wounder what he did and why it was forgotten by history. Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 16:22:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA23248; Tue, 20 May 1997 16:16:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:16:28 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:15:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705202315.SAA13830 dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: Patent Examiner Duggan? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"PZtSM1.0.Ah5.C3ZWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 5/20/97 Actually using Duggan as a scape goat is a favorite rouse of Newman and Soule. It doesn't matter at all what Duggan's findings were then or now. It's over with. Don't be confused with their misdirection. The real screw up came when Newman's lawyer (? Soule) argued with and pissed off judge Penfield Jackson at the bench trial. A Federal bench trial is a trial with just a Federal District Court Judge sitting and deciding the case without a jury. Federal judges have incredible power at these trials. Their decisions can only be overturned by the Federal Circuit Court over their District or the "Supremes" (The Big Nine). So basically, this was legal incompetence or malpractice on Newman's behalf. Lesson learned -- If you screw with a Federal District Court judge he or she will hand you your head. RWW From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 16:27:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA28873; Tue, 20 May 1997 16:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33822E58.17A74790 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:36:00 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg , List Server Vortex Subject: Simple Ou Toy web sites X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lDN9J1.0.r27.gxYWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Jean-Louis and Stefan have agreeded to host the "Simple OU Toy" details. 1) They will publish the construction plans. Jean-Louis will clean up my hand draw sketches. Thanks Jean-Louis. 2) They will build the devices from the plans. 3) They will test the devices and publish the results. 4) They will publish Jpeg's and Mpeg's of the working devices. ANY QUESTIONS SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO ME. Anyone else who wishes to post details on their web sites is free to do so. PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING : The "Simple OU Toy" is a modification of the device in US patent 4,215,330. It is NOT the device I am patenting. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 16:40:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA26602; Tue, 20 May 1997 16:34:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:34:06 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338234DB.3BD5 math.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:33:47 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple Ou Toy web sites References: <33822E58.17A74790 microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SZSC23.0.UV6.jJZWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING : > > The "Simple OU Toy" is a modification of the device in US patent > 4,215,330. > > It is NOT the device I am patenting. > Please clarify: what is the relation to the ball-on-track device you described, and also the relation to your recently completed quest to "close the loop"?? -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 16:49:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA01799; Tue, 20 May 1997 16:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:25:26 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Status of Toy OU Device Resent-Message-ID: <"bMUNU.0.oR.sEZWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: It appears the Toy OU device some of us are about to build is, or is soon to be, public domain. The Hartman patent, 4,215,330, was issued Jul. 29, 1980, almost 17 years ago. I am not sure if the provision made it in to the recent patent legislation, but it is possible the Hartman patent will be extended to 20 years, assuming the fees are paid up to date. Most patents expire early due to failure to pay the expensive renewal fees. Depending on whether the fees are paid up it may or may not be OK to sell kits right now. The other extensions to the Hartman idea, like sending the ball back around in a circle, were posted here on a public domain list. If the basic idea works, it will mean free energy (however small) to all who can afford to build and maintain the device. Maybe an eventual big quesion: can it be scaled up? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 16:50:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA00302; Tue, 20 May 1997 16:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Inventor must provide device To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:19:10 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <970520193350_72240.1256_EHB124-1 CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at May 20, 97 03:33:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7UF0D2.0.e4.s6ZWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > I would like to point out that there are some > innovative machines, like Mizuno's proton conductors, which cannot be > demonstrated because they only work now and then. As you say below: > Newman, of course, has no excuse. He claims that the machine works on demand. > Therefore he should be able to show it, lend it to people like Scott Little, > and sell copies to people like me. It is nothing like a proton conductor. There's a huge difference between fundamental physics research and an allegedly operational device. It might be quite a bit harder to get investment money on research projects, even those not on the fringe of physics. Those that say they have a working product can demo it and get big bucks. Those who say then need big bucks to develop their theory have a harder sell. I'm amazed at the BLP private offering taking in $9 million -- to me that was still a physics research project, but the investors apparently believe otherwise. I'm hoping it isn't a mini Bre-X (hoping no one falls out of a helicopter. ;-) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 17:02:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA31406; Tue, 20 May 1997 16:54:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:54:07 -0700 Reply-To: < snip.net> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Computers and software Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:29:28 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19970520235456894.AAA164 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"3X2iN.0.eg7.UcZWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris as usual has the logically correct position and the story about the Bombe and the pentium is a good one. And, yes, the programs become grotesquely large and need grotesquely powerful computers to run them. Extreme case, a human being. We forget that what is "simple" for us is fantastically complex in detail. To get both simplicity of use and flexibility isn't at all easy. Try writing the program for an idiot who understands only how to move his feet, hands, and eyes that will enable him to get a loaf of bread from the store a block away and across the (busy) street. The Carrell Principle of Concealed Complexity: "Human adapability conceals the actual complexity of a task, which is discovered when one attempts to automate it". Mike Carrell ----------Chris said, > Yes, of course. But, hey, it's a hell of a story - innit? Would you > say this tale has *no* lessons for us? It has many lessons. > You can't disagree that OS software grew like Topsy into grotesque and > inefficient overheads, surely? Or that hardware (in general) threw away > its sophistication in favour of brute force? > > Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 17:35:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA08514; Tue, 20 May 1997 17:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:15:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:09:44 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Patent Examiner Duggan? Resent-Message-ID: <"v-dRD1.0.y42.BwZWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >5/20/97 > >Actually using Duggan as a scape goat is a favorite rouse of Newman and >Soule. It doesn't matter at all what Duggan's findings were then or >now. It's over with. Don't be confused with their misdirection. > >The real screw up came when Newman's lawyer (? Soule) argued with and >pissed off judge Penfield Jackson at the bench trial. A Federal bench >trial is a trial with just a Federal District Court Judge sitting and >deciding the case without a jury. Federal judges have incredible power >at these trials. Their decisions can only be overturned by the Federal >Circuit Court over their District or the "Supremes" (The Big Nine). > >So basically, this was legal incompetence or malpractice on Newman's >behalf. Lesson learned -- If you screw with a Federal District Court >judge he or she will hand you your head. > >RWW Dear Mr. Wall, You misdirected comments are more fiction than fact. Moreover, not surprising, you miss the point of Duggan's actions. Duggan was truly placed in a position of authority which exceeded his technical capabilities. There is no "rouse" necessary. Duggan's documented incompetence speaks for itself. And no, Mr. Wall, the real screw-up began when Judge Jackson ignored the findings of his _own_ Court-Appointed Expert and Special Master (and former U.S. Commissioner of the Patent Office) who stated that the evidence was _overwhelming_ that Joseph Newman's invention did indeed work. Since you are so replete with factual(?) information regarding the behavior of Joseph Newman's attorney, it is interesting that I don't recall seeing you in the courtroom. John Flannery, Joseph Newman's attorney, was exceedingly polite with Judge Jackson --- up until the point at which Jackson ordered the confiscation of Joseph Newman's prototype in violation of the standing order of the U.S. Court of Appeals. And even then, with such atrocious actions on the part of Jackson, Mr. Flannery retained his cool and politely challenged the Judge's legal reasons for violating the Higher Court's orders. Not unexpectedly, Jackson never did issue his legal reasons for such violations. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "The Three Laws of Thermodynamics were conceived without an understanding of the relationship between heat (gyroscopic particles/electromagnetic energy) and Matter." --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 17:54:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA07715; Tue, 20 May 1997 17:42:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:42:52 -0700 Message-ID: <33824491.E9F9777E microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:10:49 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Freenrg Subject: Re: Simple Ou Toy web sites X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <33822E58.17A74790 microtronics.com.au> <338234DB.3BD5@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dOoBW2.0.yt1._JaWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Barry Merriman wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > > > PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING : > > > > The "Simple OU Toy" is a modification of the device in US patent > > 4,215,330. > > > > It is NOT the device I am patenting. > > > > Please clarify: what is the relation to the ball-on-track > device you described, and also the relation to your > recently completed quest to "close the loop"?? > > -- > Barry Merriman Hi Barry, Both are "Close The Loop Devices". Shall we call them "CTLD"? I believe the "Simple OU Toy" CTLD is very much in the public domain, but will show mag based OU is possible. It is different enough not to clash with the patent 4,215,330 but that's just my opinion. My latest CTLD, is very different. I will disclose details of that device some time in the future. The "Simple OU Toy" CTLD is an attempt to prove what I have, without giving the farm away. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 20:05:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA20589; Tue, 20 May 1997 19:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:01:03 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: Simple Ou Toy web sites In-Reply-To: <33822E58.17A74790 microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"OZxTo3.0.W15.4fbWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > Jean-Louis and Stefan have agreeded to host the "Simple OU Toy" details. > 1) They will publish the construction plans. Jean-Louis will clean up > my hand draw sketches. Thanks Jean-Louis. GREAT, WHAT ARE THEIR (2)WEB SITE ADDRESS' ?? > > 2) They will build the devices from the plans. CAN'T WE PLAY TOO?? or do we have to wait for them to build these two models.. before> 3) They will test the devices and publish the results. > > 4) They will publish Jpeg's and Mpeg's of the working devices. LOOKING FORWARD TO THE PIC's steve ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2 freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 20:36:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA31033; Tue, 20 May 1997 20:30:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:30:44 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:30:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705210330.WAA00375 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Greg...critical question! Resent-Message-ID: <"k_dOQ1.0.pa7.ZncWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:36 AM 5/21/97 +0930, Greg wrote: >The "Simple OU Toy" is a modification of the device in US patent >4,215,330. > >It is NOT the device I am patenting. Maybe I missed one, Greg...but I thought in your last post you said that, when you built one of these "toys" from your own plans that it did NOT run continuously. Have you now succeeded in getting the "Simple OU Toy" to run continuously all by itself? Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 21:03:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA00759; Tue, 20 May 1997 20:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33826CCF.CAB1A4D1 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:02:31 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Freenrg Subject: Re: Simple Ou Toy web sites X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qhz2m2.0.eB.BscWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steve Ekwall wrote: > > On Wed, 21 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > > Jean-Louis and Stefan have agreeded to host the "Simple OU Toy" > details. > > 1) They will publish the construction plans. Jean-Louis will clean > up > > my hand draw sketches. Thanks Jean-Louis. > > GREAT, WHAT ARE THEIR (2)WEB SITE ADDRESS' ?? > > > > > 2) They will build the devices from the plans. > > CAN'T WE PLAY TOO?? or do we have to wait for them to build these two > models.. before> 3) They will test the devices and publish the > results. > > > > 4) They will publish Jpeg's and Mpeg's of the working devices. > > LOOKING FORWARD TO THE PIC's > > steve Hi Steve, Sorry for the confusion. I will publish the construction plans via attachments to my posts to freenrg-l and vortex-l. The web sites will also have the details. Anyone can build the devices. Anyone can display the results on there web sites. I hope many do. The Jean-Louis and Stefan will build the devices and display the results to assist others. They both have still and video capabilities. Stefan Hartman's site is : http://www.overunity.de Jean-Louis's site is : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 21:19:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA00394 for billb@eskimo.com; Tue, 20 May 1997 21:19:04 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:19:04 -0700 X-Envelope-From: frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net Tue May 20 21:19:01 1997 Received: from mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net (mailhost.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.34]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA00325 for ; Tue, 20 May 1997 21:18:59 -0700 Received: from LOCALNAME ([207.147.118.251]) by mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA7555; Wed, 21 May 1997 04:16:57 +0000 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Biomass Fueled Internal Combustion Engines. Cc: chcastan perseus.unalmed.edu.co Old-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 04:16:57 +0000 Message-ID: <19970521041654.AAA7555 LOCALNAME> X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: I'm taking a break from vortex for a spell, but thought I would post the results of some preliminary work on the combustion of biomass in Diesel and Spark Ignition engines. No over-unity here, just a way of using some of the energy stored up from the 12,000 Quads/day Solar insolation on the Earth. The World's total energy production and use is less than one Quad/day. (one Quad = 10^15 BTU) Seems that if you wet grind about any biomass into a water slurry of about 50-50 water/biomass and pump it into a pipe heated from the exhaust of an engine with a metering pump or air pressure so that it builds up steam-biomass to 50 pounds/in^2 or more, and then let it expand through an orifice-valve arrangement directly into the air intake of a Diesel or Spark Ignition engine the engine will run on the biomass "dust". The combustion parameters are pretty well covered in industrial dust explosion science. The ash contained in the biomass, if not too abrasive, should not be of particular concern. The spark ignition engines will require a small quantity of liquid "pilot" fuel to initiate combustion. Ethanol will do okay for this. Easy to set up for a small engine, with some pipe, a tire pump or grease-gun and a wet attrition (flour) mill and some ingenuity. :-) I figure about 3 pounds/hour per shaft horsepower delivered, based on a dry weight value of 8,000 btu/lb and 6% ash for the biomass, with about the same amount of water required. So "green" biomass like weeds or grass clippings should work also. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 21:23:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA02128 for billb@eskimo.com; Tue, 20 May 1997 21:23:40 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:23:40 -0700 X-Envelope-From: ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net Tue May 20 21:23:38 1997 Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (mailhost.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.33]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA02086 for ; Tue, 20 May 1997 21:23:36 -0700 Received: from LOCALNAME ([207.147.109.212]) by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA10444 for ; Wed, 21 May 1997 04:23:01 +0000 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Answer the question series Old-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 04:23:01 +0000 Message-ID: <19970521042259.AAA10444 LOCALNAME> X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: At 11:54 PM 5/19/97 +0000, you wrote: >>To: Vortex >> >>Barry Merriman echos my concerns: >> >> Mr. Soule': you have yet to explain to us why it is taking Newman's >> technology so long to penetrate the real world, or why he will not >> submit it for validation testing at EarthTech. >> >>Precisely. And if you do not like EarthTech, there are many other equally >>reputable labs willing to test this machine. >> >>- Jed > >Mr. Rothwell, > > >Joseph Newman has indeed _published_ his work which has been sold and >distributed worldwide....many major corporations, laboratories, >universities, and government agencies have purchased his published book. > >Joseph Newman has indeed _tested_ his numerous operational prototypes on >many, many occasions. > >So we have covered your numbers 2 (3?) and 3 as above. > >Over 30 scientists have tested Joseph Newman's prototypes and have signed >legal Affidavits that his technology does indeed "Produce Greater External >Energy Output Than External Energy Input." >Evan Soule' Hal Puthoff requested a set of the drawings referred to by Evan Soule' some time ago. Has he made any progress in evaluation that I missed? I would really be intrigued to see transcripts independently obtained from the court action taken by J. Newman, mainly to see what the court appointed expert actually said about the Newman device (a potential IE article?). He is said to be a person with much experience with electrical engineering and patent law who unexpectedly backed up Newman. What is alleged to have happened in the face of the testimony of this expert witness is total rejection of Newman's claims by the court. I am convinced that something quite interesting happened from the videotapes of news broadcasts provided by Evan Soule', but I don't know just what it was. The fact that the technology has not penetrated the world market may be a failure of the free market hypothesis (FMH), a circumstance that occurs if free markets fail to function for a variety of reasons. It is not necessarily valid to assume the FMH operates always, as assumption I believe implicit in Barry Merriman's question. The FMH is a cherished assumption that is true, but sometimes the time that is required for it to be proven true is long and the circumstances that arise when it is proven true can be drastic. (bursting bubbles, market crashes). I would think more independent testing would be a good thing, if I were the inventor and the thing worked, unless I had some bad experiences with people not finding what I was knew existed. I do not know what I cannot know and I cannot know unless I test it myself. Isn't it a personal attack to imply fraud or delusion without even so much as a personal attempt at replication? George Miley's paraphased belief is that more good material is lost to being overly skeptical than can be compensated for in scientific purity. We need focus. Confusion cannot be overcome unless key data and key concepts are allowed to surface. That is why abstaining from personal attack is a ground rule for this list. Aloof implications about someone's mental pathology are personal attacks. Taking such license because of one's scientific literacy is an abuse of more than one's education. Jed wrote: > I am forced to conclude that you have nothing, and your claims are > nonsense. If I am wrong and you do have something, but you hiding > it instead of selling it, then you are guilty of a monstrous > crime. You have deprived the world of a life-saving technology > just to satisfy your egos. Either way, you are despicable people. > Berry Merriman responds: "Jed: I agree totally with your assessment of this situation, and your writings here on the matter have been most eloquent. I think you should publish a short opinion piece in I.E. devoted to those who make monumental claims, yet are unable or unwilling to follow through in a corresponding manner. " I agree with most of what Jed writes, too, but "despicable people" most certainly falls into the category of personal attack and again, the FMH assumption is implicit. Some of these claims may be valid, but the situation could be more complex than 'building a better mousetrap' metaphor. Jed may feel justified in making the attacks in order to goad such an inventor out of his 'inventor's disease,' but I don't agree. Scott Little wrote: "May we borrow a device for a relatively short while?" I think it strange that Newman et al would turn down such a seemingly genuine offer (if he has). Human motivations are hardly simple. Evan maintains that they have demonstrated enough and are tired of the dog and pony routine, that people have to prove it to themselves. If that is his thinking, I agree, but providing a working model when a non-disclosure agreement is not even needed seems pretty reasonable. If the thing works, he has nothing to lose. If the thing fails to work, the opinions of Jed and Berry are reinforced, though perhaps incorrect, because, as Scott points out, his testing procedure may be wrong. To move forward, I urge Newman et al to take the risk of loaning the device, preferably with training. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 21:39:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA05083; Tue, 20 May 1997 20:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33827227.1E7AA24F microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:25:19 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Greg...critical question! X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199705210330.WAA00375 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HHPNw1.0.rE1.0BdWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 08:36 AM 5/21/97 +0930, Greg wrote: > > >The "Simple OU Toy" is a modification of the device in US patent 4,215,330. > > > >It is NOT the device I am patenting. > > Maybe I missed one, Greg...but I thought in your last post you said that, > when you built one of these "toys" from your own plans that it did NOT run > continuously. > > Have you now succeeded in getting the "Simple OU Toy" to run continuously > all by itself? > > Scott Little Hi Scott, Yes. Well not run but roll by itself. Sort of like a circular "Tomi" device. Up and down, round and round. Not too elegant, but it works. Don't get hung up on the way a "Tomi" works (or doesn't work), this is different. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 21:54:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA11516; Tue, 20 May 1997 21:48:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:48:20 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:48:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705210448.XAA06754 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Greg...critical question! Resent-Message-ID: <"U1JPr2.0.sp2.JwdWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:25 PM 5/21/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: >Yes. Well not run but roll by itself. Maybe I'm being hard-headed here, Greg, but that statement is not clear and seems a bit ambiguous. Just for the record could you please answer yes/no to the following: Does the simple O-U toy built from your own plans work in such as manner as to create motion that continues unabated for many hours once started? Thanks. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 21:56:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA12757; Tue, 20 May 1997 21:53:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:53:14 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Greg...critical question! To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:53:07 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <33827227.1E7AA24F microtronics.com.au> from "Greg Watson" at May 21, 97 01:25:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"70Zp33.0.F73.v-dWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > Sort of like a circular "Tomi" device. Up and down, round and round. > Not too elegant, but it works. Don't get hung up on the way a "Tomi" > works (or doesn't work), this is different. Speaking of the Tomi, the ANE Newsletter that was bundled with the most recent IE magazine has a front page analysis of the Tomi -- these Academy for New Energy guys (ANE) couldn't get the thing to work. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 22:10:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA18270; Tue, 20 May 1997 22:05:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:05:56 -0700 Message-Id: <338271B4.3D3A7CA2 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:53:24 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Unattended 3.62MB data X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ht3Se3.0.AT4.oAeWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Surprisingly, I received 66 letters total 3.60MB literature successfully from Evan Soule absolutely free. This should be a part of his special collection. The package consist mostly of gif files including a nice photograph of Mr. Newman, historical shots, several oscilloscope pictures, also drawings, theoretical articles and lectures. Context of each letters are meaningfully explained on subject lines to compensate the unstructured format of the package. I am getting sad after seeing a cross section of 30 years of fruitless efforts. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 22:15:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA21104; Tue, 20 May 1997 22:12:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:12:17 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Biomass Fueled Internal Combustion Engines. Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:11:38 +0000 Message-ID: <19970521051136.AAA2936 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"qkrCB2.0.f95.mGeWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex: Have some work under way on biomass combustion. Thought I would post the results of some preliminary work on the combustion of biomass in Diesel and Spark Ignition engines. No over-unity here, just a way of using some of the energy stored up from the 12,000 Quads/day Solar insolation on the Earth. The World's total energy production and use is less than one Quad/day. (one Quad = 10^15 BTU) Seems that if you wet grind about any biomass into a water slurry of about 50-50 water/biomass and pump it into a pipe heated from the exhaust of an engine, with a metering pump or air pressure so that it builds up steam-biomass to 50 pounds/in^2 or more, and then let it expand through an orifice-valve arrangement directly into the air intake of a Diesel or Spark Ignition engine, the engine will run on the biomass "dust". The combustion parameters are pretty well covered in industrial dust explosion science. The ash contained in the biomass, if not too abrsaive, should not be of particular concern. The spark ignition engines will require a small quantity of liquid "pilot" fuel to initiate combustion. Ethanol will do okay for this. Easy to set up for a small engine, with some pipe, a tire pump or grease-gun and a wet attrition (flour) mill and some ingenuity. :-) I figure about 3 pounds/hour per shaft horsepower delivered, based on a dry weight value of 8,000 btu/lb and 6% ash for the biomass, with about the same amount of water required. So "green" biomass like weeds or grass clippings should work also. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 20 22:55:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA04620; Tue, 20 May 1997 22:50:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:50:47 -0700 Message-ID: <33828CDC.D67C0942 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:19:16 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg , List Server Vortex Subject: [Fwd: Simple Ou Toy web sites] X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1ECA84DF44C2E1210EB57B7E" Resent-Message-ID: <"vDN2K1.0.681.sqeWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1ECA84DF44C2E1210EB57B7E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------1ECA84DF44C2E1210EB57B7E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <33828CA8.AD8F3841 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:18:24 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William Beaty Subject: Re: Simple Ou Toy web sites X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Beaty wrote: > > On Wed, 21 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > > > The "Simple OU Toy" CTLD is an attempt to prove what I have, without > > giving the farm away. > > Hi Greg! > > Something not totally clear: have you succeeded in getting the Hartman > patent to actually work in closed-loop mode? It SHOULD work, but if you > haven't actually succeeded, there is a chance that some weird little > difference will prevent operation of the "o/u toy". My Simple Magnetic Ou Toy is a modification of the Hartman patent (4,215,330) using multi curved ramps. You are correct, it does work! Building and adjusting the magnetic contours is tricky. The ramp designs I will present, make it easy to develop the skill necessary to master the adjustments. > Also: I don't think you've mentioned the total number of closed-loop > systems you've successfully made work. Are more than one of them up and > running, including non-patent versions? Yes there are, two similar but different systems. One based on the patent and one I am working on the patent for. The Simple Magnetic OU Toy (SMOT) is based on the old patent as I said but the Rotary Magnetic OU Device (RMOD) is not. I am currently building the second version of the RMOD in plexi-glass (See NO wires). > William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 Hi Bill, Sorry to be so confusing, but I really am not ready to disclose my rotary shaft device (RMOD) yet. I took the path of returning to the Hartman patent and working on it to develop a proof of mag ou device (SMOT) to settle the doubts without giving away my real device. I believe there are many variations possible (the Gary devices I believe will work as well). What I am attempting to do is to infuse in as many people as possible, the desire to stop talking and get their hands dirty building OU devices of ANY kind. To show that OU is possible, without a doubt! In closing I have build two classes of magnetic based closed loop devices which have no known power input other than that supplied by hard and soft ferromagnetic material : 1) SMOT (Simple Magnetic Ou Toy) which I will fully disclosed in 4 phases. 2) RMOD (Rotary Magnetic Ou Device) which will NOT be disclosed until the patent is in progress. --------------1ECA84DF44C2E1210EB57B7E-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 00:46:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA00477; Wed, 21 May 1997 00:43:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:43:43 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: [Fwd: Simple Ou Toy web sites] To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:18:53 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <33828CDC.D67C0942 microtronics.com.au> from "Greg Watson" at May 21, 97 03:19:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VevC_2.0.I7.jUgWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > My Simple Magnetic Ou Toy is a modification of the Hartman patent > (4,215,330) using multi curved ramps. You are correct, it does work! > Building and adjusting the magnetic contours is tricky. The ramp > designs I will present, make it easy to develop the skill necessary to > master the adjustments. You can view the patent at: http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4215330 Basically it looks like a ball is pulled up the inclined plane by an array of magnets variously staggered so that the magnetic intensity increases thus pulling the ball ever higher until it reaches the top where the magnetic stagger changes and the incline falls away, thus allegedly allowing the ball to fall back to its initial level (and given a return track) start the whole process over. Kinda like an Escher waterfall. If such a thing ran continuously, it would indeed require O/U, since there is rolling resistance, air resistance, probable eddy currents induced by the motion through the magnetic fields, etc. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 01:11:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA00234; Wed, 21 May 1997 00:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:49:36 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: tv show Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 06:05:00 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <33828f1e.2616897 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <970520183035_-364517082 emout19.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <970520183035_-364517082 emout19.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"27oUg2.0.a3.CagWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 20 May 1997 18:30:38 -0400 (EDT), FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: >I saw a rerun of a Popular Science show form 1937 Paramont Shields Pictures >Popular Scince Monthly on AMC movie Memories last week. > >In the show an inventor found a way to make hydrogen from sunlight. I tried >to do the same before I got involved with ZPE. I found that >thermal/electrical processes were not economic and that sunlight did not have >enough energy to dissociate water. Plants seem to manage it with sunlight. [snip] Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 01:11:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA00786; Wed, 21 May 1997 00:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:34:00 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: [Fwd: Simple Ou Toy web sites] Resent-Message-ID: <"43DKi1.0.9C.acgWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 3:19 PM 5/21/97, Greg Watson wrote: [snip] > >My Simple Magnetic Ou Toy is a modification of the Hartman patent >(4,215,330) using multi curved ramps. You are correct, it does work! >Building and adjusting the magnetic contours is tricky. The ramp >designs I will present, make it easy to develop the skill necessary to >master the adjustments. > [snip] It seems like plastic or even glass tubing should be fairly easy to adjust. Is there some reason rails are necessary? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 03:17:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA12041; Wed, 21 May 1997 02:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 02:57:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:59:30 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Unattended 3.62MB data Resent-Message-ID: <"gfjHt2.0.0y2.BSiWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Surprisingly, I received 66 letters total 3.60MB literature successfully >from Evan Soule' absolutely free. This should be a part of his special >collection. The package consist mostly of gif files including a nice >photograph of Mr. Newman, historical shots, several oscilloscope >pictures, also drawings, theoretical articles and lectures. Context of >each letters are meaningfully explained on subject lines to compensate >the unstructured format of the package. > >I am getting sad after seeing a cross section of 30 years of fruitless >efforts. > >Regards, > >Hamdi Ucar Dear Mr. Ucar, While what I sent is a small percentage of the available information, I wouldn't recommending shedding any tears unless you feel in the general mood for a good cry! They say it "cleanses the soul." :-) Joseph Newman is quite optimistic (an optimism which I share --- although with a touch of pragmatism I tend to be a "short-term pessimist" and a "long-term optimist." Some people give up too easily. Semmelweis endeavored for much of his life to win other doctors to his revolutionary paradigm -- the poor man died believing he had failed. Quite the contrary. His success lives on to this very day. With those little spinning aetheric gyroscopes in mind, Evan Soule' P.S. With respect to your earlier comments (repeated first) --- Ralph Hartwell offered the following below: J>Dear Newman, J>I read some of your articles about NEWMAN motor. You used a J>mathematical method for calculating mechanical losses when the motor is J>running in a certain speed. I prefer always directly measuring method if J>possible. In this experiment I propose a setup for this: J>1) Connect mechanically an auxiliary AC/DC motor (at least able to give J>200W mechanical power and the sufficient torque ) to your motor / J>generator. (If possible transfer the mechanical power from motor to J>your engine via a torquemeter/power-meter for measuring directly the J>power transferred. The motor output power could be adjusted freely by an J>electrical circuit. J>2) Speed up rotor of your engine this way by running one of the motor J>or both. J>3) After reaching the nominal speed (i.e 200 RPM) disconnect all power J>and the commutators from the NEWMAN motor to ensure no current is J>generated inside the coil. May some eddy currents or unwanted J>inductions occur, assume they are the part of losses. J>4) Adjust the auxiliary motor input power so the NEWMAN motor run at J>steady speed without accelerate or decelerate. J>5) Now measure the input power of the auxiliary motor. J>6) Measure the output power using the values of torquemeter or the J>power-meter. If there no way to measure the mechanical output power J>directly there is two ways: J>First method: J> Measure the input power (name as Pl) J> Run the auxiliary motor freely at the same speed without connecting any J>load. Measure the input power. (name as Pf) J> Output mechanical power(Pm) transferred could be calculated by: J> Pm = ( Pl - Pf ) / efficiency factor J> This result will be correct as the efficiency figure is correct. It is J>assumed that the mechanical coupling of the motors is negligible. J>Second method: Connect auxiliary motor to an mechanical power measuring J>system. J>Adjust loads for obtaining the some speed (i.e. 200 RPM) and the same J>input power. J>The measuring system figures gives the exact value of the J>mechanical/passive losses as the NEWMAN motor/generator run normally. J>Yours sincerely, J>Hamdi Ucar Dear Mr. Ucar, What you propose in your letter is sort of a reverse dynamometer. It is a standard method of measuring mechanical losses in rotating machinery and easily verified. Instead of measuring the output power produced by the machine at a specific RPM, (which is what a dynamometer test is used for) you suggest measuring the mechanical losses of the machine by supplying enough mechanical input power to the shaft of the machine to compensate for the mechanical and other losses. When this test is run, the mechanical power required to maintain the machine at a constant speed is the loss value. This test won't tell you anything about the output of the machine, just the internal mechanical losses, along with any possible eddy current losses due to the moving magnetic field. Other than for your own information, I don't know why you want to run this test on the machine. It will not prove over-unity or not, or even if the machine will run when power is applied to it; it just measures the mechanical losses. As for whether it is applicable to Joe's machine or not: Yes: it's a valid engineering test. No: it does _not_ prove if the machine will work as Joe claims or not. Ralph Hartwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 03:30:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA03199; Wed, 21 May 1997 00:48:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:48:32 -0700 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Biomass Fueled Internal Combustion Engines. Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 06:33:32 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <33849624.4414643 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <19970521051136.AAA2936 LOCALNAME> In-Reply-To: <19970521051136.AAA2936 LOCALNAME> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7YBql2.0.mn.EZgWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 21 May 1997 05:11:38 +0000, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >The ash contained in the biomass, if not too abrsaive, should not be >of particular concern. I fear that this method of combustion would produce very fine particulate ash, such as recently linked to many respiratory diseases. Furthermore, none of this is necessary, as there are already methods available for converting almost any form of bio-mass into ethanol, which would IMO be a much less polluting fuel. [snip] Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 04:27:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA17934; Wed, 21 May 1997 04:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 04:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: 21 May 97 07:05:24 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank Message-ID: <970521110524_100433.1541_GHQ100-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"GGA5c1.0.8O4.qWjWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Barry, > Not avoiding. My science research has real and imaginary parts, > and CF is the imaginary part. :-). I've been busy with the real > part the last few weeks. But you don't answer my questions. Why review Longchampt without reviewing the PLA P&F paper? And did you really not see my query about the energy anomaly? Or the one about confusing experimental results with theoretical ideas associated with them? The fact is that I have over and over again asked people who find CF as funny as you do to read the P&F paper, the debate with Morrison and the New Scientist article, *and* then comment on this 'microcosm of CF'. NONE OF THEM EVER DO. I used to find that irritating, then amusing, then I began to develop contempt for those who seem so locked into one 'side' of the debate as to be unable to admit that anything can be wrong there. You don't see that here from Jed or from myself - we are willing to slam into anyone on either side. Do you wonder that I am highly doubtful that you are really an objective scientist? If you and all those others who find risible or wicked a branch of science which has satisfied the basic criteria of publication and replication, then I thank God that the whole matter is largely out of your hands. > I spend a lot of time on other things, like copying the CETI cell Yes, and I do respect that. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 05:01:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA20930; Wed, 21 May 1997 04:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 04:44:06 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970521074231_115116387 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re : Re: Simple Ou Toy web sites Resent-Message-ID: <"n8S7D2.0.x65.40kWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 21/05/1997 11:30:10 , you wrote : << On Wed, 21 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > Jean-Louis and Stefan have agreeded to host the "Simple OU Toy" details. > 1) They will publish the construction plans. Jean-Louis will clean up > my hand draw sketches. Thanks Jean-Louis. GREAT, WHAT ARE THEIR (2)WEB SITE ADDRESS' ?? >> my Overunity dedicated WEB Site : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 05:55:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA32335; Wed, 21 May 1997 05:53:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:53:33 -0700 Date: 21 May 97 08:49:59 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Subject: Re: Potapov Message-ID: <970521124958_100060.173_JHB94-3 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"y6M_O1.0.9v7.C1lWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank, >> I do not believe that it is quite as far along in development as in his sales presentation. << So all the talk and "evidence" thrown at Chris when he went to St Pete yonks ago that they were queuing up at the factory for thousands of Yusmars was just a slight exaggeration of a good salesman - b*****ks!! Either they were selling working models or conning Chris - and now you. Yuri - "a bit of a salesman" - give me strength. Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 05:55:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA32296; Wed, 21 May 1997 05:53:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:53:28 -0700 Date: 21 May 97 08:49:57 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Subject: Re: Computers and software Message-ID: <970521124956_100060.173_JHB94-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"6kXY11.0.Tu7.71lWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris, >> You can't disagree that OS software grew like Topsy into grotesque and inefficient overheads, surely? Or that hardware (in general) threw away its sophistication in favour of brute force? Chris << What you're really saying IMO is that you lean towards a "horses for courses" approach for software. Your probably right for commercial applications, but the spread of the PC into every facet of civilised life seems to have spawned the "all-can-do" operating system and GUI attitude which grinds very fine but bloody slow. Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 06:15:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA29637; Wed, 21 May 1997 05:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: 21 May 97 08:50:01 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Subject: Re: Ucar means a dynamometer Message-ID: <970521125000_100060.173_JHB94-4 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"vWA3U2.0.wE7.32lWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John, >> Friction losses can disappear in static tests. << I think you will find that the estimate of dynamic friction can be exaggerated due to the effect of "sticktion" in a static test rig. Modern chain drives are very highly efficient, especially if only lightly lubricated to reduce corrosion, and not clogged with grease or heavy oil etc. as well as incorporating needle bearings as someone has already said. The engineering of the sprocket teeth is very important in reducing losses. Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 06:18:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA29659; Wed, 21 May 1997 05:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: 21 May 97 08:49:54 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Subject: Re: The Rothwell Criteria Message-ID: <970521124954_100060.173_JHB94-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"6NtZa1.0.LF7.B2lWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed; Horace, et al, >> >1. Won't submit to independent verification. >> >3. Won't publish. << While I agree with most of Jed's critique in this context, can anyone enlighten us on the validity of the "Meyer Excuse" for not allowing any outsider to test his gizmos, namely that the Patent regulatory body has placed some sort of blockage on his patents and that he is under some sort of threat of punishment if he disobeys their rules. I have searches the U.S. regulations and there are certainly some clauses which point in that direction, but I am confused by the apparent anomaly of his patents being allowed to be published for all the world to see, but apparently not to be used - according to Meyer! Could he possibly be right - legally? Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 09:00:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA30356; Wed, 21 May 1997 08:52:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:52:38 -0700 Message-ID: <33831A4A.5BB9 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:52:42 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: BIGGER IS BETTER (Sometimes!) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Swgaa1.0.zP7._enWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We should all keep in mind that some "energy systems" do not scale down in size very well. The SUN is a good example. Perhaps we should plan a "Watson ramp" with tracks constructed using convienient mountain slopes to do the job - or, how about an OU amusement park ride in which the "balls" contained fun-seekers paying about $3.50 a throw? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 09:16:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA18294; Wed, 21 May 1997 08:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:51:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Jason Aldo To: Robin van Spaandonk Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Biomass Fueled Internal Combustion Engines. In-Reply-To: <33849624.4414643 mail.eisa.net.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"7wikM.0.kT4.3ZnWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Wed, 21 May 1997 05:11:38 +0000, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >The ash contained in the biomass, if not too abrsaive, should not be > >of particular concern. > > I fear that this method of combustion would produce very fine > particulate ash, such as recently linked to many respiratory diseases. > Furthermore, none of this is necessary, as there are already methods > available for converting almost any form of bio-mass into ethanol, > which would IMO be a much less polluting fuel. > [snip] This method of directly using biomass in engines, by cutting out the intermediate steps of producing ethanol or methane, would be much more efficient. The energy needed to convert biomass into concentrated fuels is very prohibitive. If the ash could be collected in some sort of trap, it would not be a problem and could even be used for fertilizer for more biomass production. I would be interested in hearing more of this method, Fred. It seems as though you would need to carry alot of biomass on board which wouldn't be good for long trips, but it would be great for around town. > Pete Aldo > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 09:20:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA19193; Wed, 21 May 1997 08:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:58:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Jason Aldo To: "Frederick J. Sparber" Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Biomass Fueled Internal Combustion Engines. In-Reply-To: <19970521095652.AAA29100 LOCALNAME> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"jQvjN.0.fh4.XenWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > At 06:33 AM 5/21/97 +0000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > >I fear that this method of combustion would produce very fine > >particulate ash, such as recently linked to many respiratory diseases. > >Furthermore, none of this is necessary, as there are already methods > >available for converting almost any form of bio-mass into ethanol, > >which would IMO be a much less polluting fuel. > > > Lets see you affordably make ethanol out of animal dung, wheat straw, > corn stover, grass and leaves, with less pollution. :-) Sure there are > already methods to make ethanol out of fruits, grains, coal, methane, > synthesis gas and so on, but at what cost economically-environmentally? > > Obviously, you can wet scrub the exhaust of the engines and use the ash > for fertilizer. :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > Frederick, I read this reply after I sent mine. It says the same thing. Weird.> > Pete > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 10:20:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA16770; Wed, 21 May 1997 10:11:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:11:19 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970521110244_-1196852174 emout16.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: for Merryman Resent-Message-ID: <"HnMO-.0.x54.sooWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Berry I just got my grades back. I got an A in Nuclear. What did you get? Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 10:22:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA18425; Wed, 21 May 1997 10:17:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:17:35 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:14:40 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: tv show Resent-Message-ID: <"wwQ_y3.0.pV4.kuoWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:05 PM 5/20/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Tue, 20 May 1997 18:30:38 -0400 (EDT), FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > >>I saw a rerun of a Popular Science show form 1937 Paramont Shields Pictures >>Popular Scince Monthly on AMC movie Memories last week. >> >>In the show an inventor found a way to make hydrogen from sunlight. I tried >>to do the same before I got involved with ZPE. I found that >>thermal/electrical processes were not economic and that sunlight did not have >>enough energy to dissociate water. > >Plants seem to manage it with sunlight. >[snip] >Robin van Spaandonk There has been lots of work in this area, some by big oil companies. The keyword is "photolysis". It requires UV to work directly. If you tried it "under glass" Frank, it won't work at all. Believe it or not, at one time there was a proposal out of Case Western Reserve U. to use UV from fusion reactor plasma to do direct photolysis of water vapor. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 11:20:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA06041; Wed, 21 May 1997 10:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:52:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Heat Pipes Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:50:30 +0000 Message-ID: <19970521175027.AAA4708 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"ppZc32.0.FU1.QPpWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John: I took my own advice and looked for some web sites on Heat Pipes. I like the Thermacore web page at; www.thermacore.inter.net/thermacore/techno.htm best for a technical explanation. I had a couple of patents on the heat pipes that were used on the Pioneer and Voyager Space probes. These used the helium from decay of the radioisotope to keep the power level constant as the isotope decayed. You do not need a "wick" for condensate return if gravity can do it for you. The simplest heat pipe that I ever made, was to take a test tube about 1/4 full of water, (or ethanol) and heat the fluid enough to expell the air and then cork it. After it has cooled, you can make it boil just by holding it in your hand. there is only a couple of degrees temperature difference between the boiler and condenser ends. These are used on the Alaska Pipeline as stanchions to keep the permafrost frozen around them to stabilize the line. In other words the cold winter air sucks the heat away from the top of the vertical pipes, thus drawing the heat out of the frozen permafrost. since they can't work backwards (a thermal diode) it keeps the permafrost frozen during the warm season. Tom Feldman a friend of mine did the design on these. I think he used ammonia on these, but, ammonia is a powerful heart stimulant and is a bit nasty to work with. However it is used in farming in trailer mounted pressure tanks for anhydrous, or lined tanks for wet ammonia. But a good whiff of it can be very unpleasant. :-) Now they are using the heat pipes in laptop computers. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 11:22:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA08969; Wed, 21 May 1997 11:13:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:13:40 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC65B8.9136B240 ip44.ts2.phx.inficad.com> From: Reed Huish To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: The triump of experience and hope Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:35:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <"q7zay2.0.1C2.IjpWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In response to Jed Rothwell, from Mike Fisher of Zenergy: John Logajan quotes Dr. Johnson, who described the remarriage of "a = gentleman who had been very unhappy in marriage" as "the triumph of = hope over experience." This applies to the ever-hopeful yet ever- = disappointed Mike Fisher, who says: . . . We all want to hear the good news, but unfortunately, of the dozens of claimed over-unity technologies, our group has not yet witnessed one device that we can be completely sure of, although = we know that they are out there and several of the ones we have seen will in due course prove to be viable over-unity = technologies. If I were Mr. Fisher, and I had seen nothing but failed tests and null results, I would have given up years ago. I do not believe in any of = the magnetic motors or anti-gravity machines, because as far as I know = none has ever been independently verified. But this is not the case = with conventional, metal lattice cold fusion.=20 Responding to Jed Rothwell: I am in complete agreement with you, I have = not seen any over unity magnetic motors or anti-gravity machines either. = The denial of cold fusion requires the triumph of imagination over = established fact. The wishful thinking of Fisher and the magnetic motor = people is no more outlandish than the reasons dredged up by Huizenga and = Hoffman to dismiss cold fusion. I have never dismissed cold fusion. I don't know how you reached that = conclusion. All the evidence suggests that it does work, and I am the = first to admit that I do not have a background in nuclear physics to = understand the mechanics of CF, nor have I put in the time and effort to = learn about cold fusion. I am unqualified to comment about CF. =20 Unlike Fisher, I would not say categorically that any o-u technology will "in due course" become viable. History shows that no outcome is = guaranteed. Again I have never said that ANY o-u technology will in due course = become viable. Reread the quote. I believe that in due course we will = see perhaps ONE (hopefully more) o-u technology that will become viable. = We are likely to see a thousand failed technologies for every one that = works. And please don't classify me as one of the "magnetic motor = people". Yes we have checked out quite a few magnetic motors and = generators, but we've also evaluated dozens of other technologies not in = the slightest related to magnetic motors. I agree with you Jed, I = reiterate that I am yet to see any evidence for an o-u magnetic motor or = generator. There is no evidence for any of the magnetic motors. Only hearsay, and = the unsubstantiated claims of the inventors. Fisher is barking up the wrong tree. Just because CF works, that is no reason to think the = magnetic motors also work. You might as well conclude that CF proves = ITER will be economically viable! ITER, CF and magnetic motors are = three totally independent, unrelated technologies. Rock solid proof = and good results in one do not reflect on the other two. I suppose success in CF should prompt us to think twice = before dismissing new ideas. It should make us inclined to give these oddball machines a second look. But I know of no scientific reason to = associate one with the other. You're right there is no reason to associate CF with magnetic motors and = I never have. Where did you draw that erroneous conclusion? I do however = believe that CF has tapped into some primordial energy field in some = peculiar way. I am therefore open to this portal being traversed in a = multitude of ways. And I have no idea how or when this will happen. But = there are pointers. We can waste our time on speculation or we can get = on with pursuing the technologies we feel demonstrate potential, at = whatever stage of development that might be. Jed, I am delighted you are = advancing CF as you are. The field needs your commitment.=20 Thanks for your comments about me barking up the wrong tree. Which of = the 20 technologies we are investigating are the wrong trees? Your = statements above indicate that you are clearly unaware of the = technologies on which we are working. Maybe we could carry on the = discussion in Denver at the weekend. See you then. Dr. Johnson also said: Every man who attacks my belief, diminishes in some degree my = confidence in it, and therefore makes me uneasy; and I am angry = with him who makes me uneasy. Dr Johnson at times wrote some wise words. I applaud him for expressing = his feelings of hurt pride however they are not very wise. Such = emotional honesty is laudable, however anger at criticism, although = perfectly natural, often has the effect of blocking the path to = progress, as individual egos battle to prove they are "right". However = his sentiments were his own and do not apply to everyone. I delight in = open and honest debate. Your email says volumes about what you don't = know about Zenergy and me, and very little about what you do know. If = you think we are barking up the wrong tree, well good for you. Your = criticisms of our actions are coming from what you think we know, and we = are operating from what we do know. The concept of right and wrong is = very subjective. You do what's right for you. Jed, you and I agree a lot more than you think we do on the technical = issues, and the potential of the technologies "out there". =20 Regards Mike Fisher From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 11:33:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA07532; Wed, 21 May 1997 11:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Ucar means a dynamometer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:00:15 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <970521125000_100060.173_JHB94-4 CompuServe.COM> from "Norman Horwood" at May 21, 97 08:50:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"y9m0v1.0.Wr1.uXpWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Norman wrote: > >> Friction losses can disappear in static tests. << > > I think you will find that the estimate of dynamic friction can be exaggerated > due to the effect of "sticktion" in a static test rig. Modern chain drives > are very highly efficient I was just thinking of the water hose analogy. If you have a 500 foot run of garden hose and you measure the static pressure on the end (the water exit is stoppered) you'll get a nice high pressure. Then if you unstopper it and measure flow rate, you'll get some rate. But if you multiply the dynamic flow rate by the static pressure to find power you'll get a very wrong answer. It seemed like the Wrights were using a static pressure (force) measurement to determine dynamic power delivery -- it still makes me uncomfortable even if chain drives are different in function. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 11:36:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA15922; Wed, 21 May 1997 11:32:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:32:00 -0700 Message-ID: <33833DB5.B99 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:23:50 -0500 From: Craig Haynie Reply-To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Magnetic OU: Discussion References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5MrCl1.0.Hu3.Q-pWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have a question: If a strong permanent magnet is suspended above a level surface, and then a steel ball is gently rolled underneath the magnet such that the magnetic field overcomes the weight of the ball, and lifts the ball up to the magnet, then where is the conservation of energy? The magnet did work. It lifted the ball above the level surface. For conservation of energy to occur, something had to change in the magnet, right? So what happened? Did the magnet lose some of its magnetism? Did the electons in the magnet fall to lower energy states? It seems that this question is the question at the essence of the ball-on-track device that Greg Watson built. When a permanent magnet pulls something toward it, it does work, but where is the conservation of energy? Thanks, Craig Haynie cchaynie ix.netcom.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 11:43:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA17332; Wed, 21 May 1997 11:34:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:34:41 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: pa920493 oak.cats.ohiou.edu From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Biomass Fueled Internal Combustion Engines. Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:34:11 +0000 Message-ID: <19970521183408.AAA23087 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"smHhI2.0.gE4.-0qWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peter: A couple of good web sites for the emerging technologies in renewable energy is the: National Renewable Energy Lab, www.nrel.gov. and possibly a web page for Battelle's, Pacific Northwest National Laboratories. I have worked with both for a couple of decades, but, I am more interested in "Down On The Farm-Mother Earth" technology that can be used now, not waiting for the economics to be right out in the 23rd Century. :-) Also, I am more interested in stationary power systems for sustaining agriculture-food production as opposed to anthropomorhism of the automobile. Bicycles are good for your cholesterol. :-) Seems that the more practical energy technology is behind us rather than "down the road". :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 12:09:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA13504; Wed, 21 May 1997 11:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:37:02 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705211837.NAA01540 dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: Patent Examiner Duggan? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"cP5bh2.0.rI3.q9qWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 5/20/97 ES wrote: snip >And no, Mr. Wall, the real screw-up began when Judge Jackson ignored >the findings of his _own_ Court-Appointed Expert and Special Master >(and former U.S. Commissioner of the Patent Office) who stated that >the evidence was >_overwhelming_ that Joseph Newman's invention did >indeed work. Come now, Mr. Soule. Aren't you an attorney? You know full well that Judge Penfield Jackson was the sole finder of fact for the court as well as judge in this case. He may weigh any and all evidence as he sees fit. He is not bound by Duggan or any special master. Also, you take the special masters "overwhelming evidence" statement totally out of context. You have consistantly refused to publish, on this list or any other list, the exact content of the special masters findings. Just more smoke and mirrors, Mr Soule. snip >John Flannery, Joseph Newman's attorney, was exceedingly polite with >Judge Jackson --- up until the point at which Jackson ordered the >confiscation of Joseph Newman's prototype in violation of the standing >order of the U.S.Court of Appeals. Uh Hmmm! I'm sure Judge Jackson was well pleased with Mr. Flannery at this point. snip >Not unexpectedly, Jackson never did issue his legal reasons for such >violations. You know as well as I do, he isn't required to do so. Now everyone on this list knows it. At this point, Judge Jackson was telling Newman and his lawyer to stick it. Newmans only recourse was appeal. BTW how did the appeal come out? >Gyroscopically yours, Gyroscopically yours? Director of Information? Are you Newman's spin doctor? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 12:50:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA18070; Wed, 21 May 1997 12:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:10:34 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion Sender: kurtz IMAP2.ASU.EDU To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Simeon for Win32 Version 4.0.9 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: NORMAL X-Authentication: none Resent-Message-ID: <"LhHOY1.0.zP4.sgqWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 21 May 1997 13:23:50 -0500 Craig Haynie wrote: > I have a question: > > If a strong permanent magnet is suspended above a level surface, and > then a steel ball is gently rolled underneath the magnet such that the > magnetic field overcomes the weight of the ball, and lifts the ball up > to the magnet, then where is the conservation of energy? The magnet did > work. It lifted the ball above the level surface. For conservation of > energy to occur, something had to change in the magnet, right? So what > happened? Did the magnet lose some of its magnetism? Did the electons in > the magnet fall to lower energy states? > > It seems that this question is the question at the essence of the > ball-on-track device that Greg Watson built. When a permanent magnet > pulls something toward it, it does work, but where is the conservation > of energy? > > Thanks, > > Craig Haynie > cchaynie ix.netcom.com > Well, let me see if I can recall some sophomore physics from 30 years ago. Take the point where you released the ball as your starting point. You let it go, and the magnet attracts it, just as if you had let gravity pull a brick to ground level from 10 feet above the ground. In either case, if you wish to restore the ball or the brick to their respective starting points, you will have to work against the corresponding attractive fields to do so. Ignoring the small losses along the way, you will wind up with net work done of zero. That is where the conservation of energy is observed. -- Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 13:51:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA18627; Wed, 21 May 1997 13:44:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:44:54 -0700 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:43:51 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion Sender: kurtz IMAP2.ASU.EDU To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Simeon for Win32 Version 4.0.9 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: NORMAL X-Authentication: none Resent-Message-ID: <"Se-3z3.0.xY4.5xrWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 21 May 1997 14:30:25 -0500 Craig Haynie wrote: > Lynn Kurtz wrote: > > > Well, let me see if I can recall some sophomore physics from 30 > > years ago. Take the point where you released the ball as your > > starting point. You let it go, and the magnet attracts it, just as > > if you had let gravity pull a brick to ground level from 10 feet > > above the ground. In either case, if you wish to restore the ball > > or the brick to their respective starting points, you will have to > > work against the corresponding attractive fields to do so. Ignoring > > the small losses along the way, you will wind up with net work done > > of zero. That is where the conservation of energy is observed. > > > > -- Lynn > > So, from what you're saying, there is no degradation in the magnet from > pulling on a metal object. > I don't think I said that and, truth is, I don't know enough about magnetism to say. Your question was about conservation of energy and my point was that you pay the piper on the return trip. You don't get to just count the "downhill" part in either the gravitational or magnetic fields. > It appears from the patent in question, 4,215,330, that the inventor is > trying to play 2 powerful fields against each other. He uses the > magnetic field to lift the ball, and then the gravitational field to > restore the ball to its original position. The gravitational field is > constant across the entire experiment, but doesn't the direction of the > magnetics opposite the rail, direct the magnetic field primarily in one > direction, down the rail, so as to allow the magnetic field more time to > do work on the ball as it pulls the ball up the rail, than the work > required to remove the ball from the magnetic field as the ball is > pulled by gravity down and tangental to the field. It would seem that as > the ball is pulled down, tangental, to the field, the field strength > would drop off at 1/r^2, but the strength of the field would increase at > a lesser rate when the ball is going up the rail. > Again, I wasn't addressing any particular patent and I haven't read the patent in question. I have been following Greg Watson's posts about his magnetic ball toy etc. with interest but I will leave it to others more skilled in the art to build, test, and analyze it. It would be really great if he is onto something big, but I'm afraid I don't think so. I am guessing that the mathematical models of gravitation and magnetic forces as conservative fields is accurate and they can't in themselves provide any closed loop work. Something is powering the ball; maybe demagnetization is it, I don't know. Time will tell. Actually, I really REALLY would like to be wrong about this, and I do wish Greg and others all the best. -- Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 14:15:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA24704; Wed, 21 May 1997 10:41:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:41:20 -0700 Message-ID: <33833252.5A5B ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:35:14 -0500 From: Craig Haynie Reply-To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Vortex Mail Subject: RE: Simple OU Toy References: <970521124958_100060.173_JHB94-3 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"41Tkr.0.V16.yEpWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg: Is your ball-on-ramps device still running? If so, what is the total distance of the circular track, and how many revolutions per minute do you get of the ball moving around the track? I've taken a look at the patent, 4,215,330, and it still baffles me. I can seen how an ever increasing magnetic field could induce a ball to roll up a hill, but I don't see how the ball could get free of the strong magnetic attraction at the top of the hill. I suppose the magnetic field at the top of the ramp is not strong enough to suspend the ball in mid-air when it reaches the hole, through which it is supposed to fall, but if it isn't this strong, then how does it pull the ball up the ramp? Hasta, Craig Haynie ccHaynie ix.netcom.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 14:24:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA00966; Wed, 21 May 1997 14:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:00:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:00:23 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Patent Examiner Duggan? Resent-Message-ID: <"Vus-Y2.0.xE.99sWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >5/20/97 > >ES wrote: > >snip > >>And no, Mr. Wall, the real screw-up began when Judge Jackson ignored >>the findings of his _own_ Court-Appointed Expert and Special Master >>(and former U.S. Commissioner of the Patent Office) who stated that >>the evidence was >_overwhelming_ that Joseph Newman's invention did >>indeed work. > >Come now, Mr. Soule'. Aren't you an attorney? You know full well that >Judge Penfield Jackson was the sole finder of fact for the court as >well as judge in this case. He may weigh any and all evidence as he >sees fit. He is not bound by Duggan or any special master. Also, you >take the special masters "overwhelming evidence" statement totally out >of context. You have consistantly refused to publish, on this list or >any other list, the exact content of the special masters findings. >Just more smoke and mirrors, Mr Soule'. Wrong again, Mr. Wall. Check your own house for "smoke and mirrors." Judge Thomas Penfield stated in the court record _in advance_ of any selection of a Special Master that he (Jackson) was technically incompetent to evaluate the technology and he therefore required a Special Master to provide such an evaluation. Moreover, the Rules of his Federal District Court dictate that the Judge _must_ accept the findings of his own court-appointed Special Master and technical expert unless he (Jackson) presents evidence to the contrary as to why the Findings of the Special Master are "clearly erroneous." Such evidence was _never_ presented. When Joseph Newman's attorney asked Jackson to provide evidence that the Special Master was wrong, Jackson stated "I am not going to tell you." This statement is not surprising. Jackson had no evidence to the contrary. As to "refused to publish the exact content of the Special Master's findings" this is more of your either lies or misconceptions. From the standpoint of the evaluation of the operability of the technology, I have published a direct quotation from the Report of the Special Master. If you want more, check the court records -- it's all there. Joseph Newman's attorney expressed the opinion that Jackson was clearly biased from the beginning against Joseph Newman and Jackson clearly expected that his own expert would certainly dismiss Joseph Newman's technology as inoperable. When this didn't happen, Jackson was less-than-pleased. Moreover, from the beginning, Jackson stated that the intent of his appointed a Special Master was to "save Joseph Newman money" by expediting the Summary Judgment. Jackson lied. Joseph Newman was charged over $11,000 for the Report of the Special Master which the judge illegally ignored. Of course, I would reason that Jackson fully anticipated a negative Report and thus that would enable him to dismiss any further proceedings and thus "save Joseph Newman money." Jackson is both a liar and a hypocrite. Perhaps Jackson refined these "attributes" while he was an attorney for John Mitchell during the Watergate scandal and also an attorney for the notoriously corrupt finance division of the Committee to Re-elect the President (CREEP). The one honest statement was made by Jere Sere's (the PTO attorney at the time) to John Flannery, Joseph Newman's attorney: "We would hate to have this ever develop into a trial by jury." Joseph Newman is taking steps to insure that this will happen. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "The Three Laws of Thermodynamics were conceived without an understanding of the relationship between heat (gyroscopic particles/electromagnetic energy) and Matter." --- JOSEPH NEWMAN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 14:26:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA26952; Wed, 21 May 1997 14:21:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:21:30 -0700 Message-ID: <338364F9.2BAC ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:11:21 -0500 From: Craig Haynie Reply-To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0IOZ31.0.za6.PTsWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Lynn Kurtz wrote: > > It appears from the patent in question, 4,215,330, that the inventor is > > trying to play 2 powerful fields against each other. He uses the > > magnetic field to lift the ball, and then the gravitational field to > > restore the ball to its original position. The gravitational field is > > constant across the entire experiment, but doesn't the direction of the > > magnetics opposite the rail, direct the magnetic field primarily in one > > direction, down the rail, so as to allow the magnetic field more time to > > do work on the ball as it pulls the ball up the rail, than the work > > required to remove the ball from the magnetic field as the ball is > > pulled by gravity down and tangental to the field. It would seem that as > > the ball is pulled down, tangental, to the field, the field strength > > would drop off at 1/r^2, but the strength of the field would increase at > > a lesser rate when the ball is going up the rail. > > > > Again, I wasn't addressing any particular patent and I haven't > read the patent in question. I have been following Greg Watson's > posts about his magnetic ball toy etc. with interest but I will > leave it to others more skilled in the art to build, test, and > analyze it. It would be really great if he is onto something big, > but I'm afraid I don't think so. I am guessing that the > mathematical models of gravitation and magnetic forces as > conservative fields is accurate and they can't in themselves > provide any closed loop work. Something is powering the ball; maybe > demagnetization is it, I don't know. Time will tell. > > Actually, I really REALLY would like to be wrong about this, and I > do wish Greg and others all the best. > > -- Lynn The more I think about this, the more it seems to me that this might work. Isn't this the same principle that Voyager used when it used the gravitational attraction of Jupiter to increase its kinetic energy and sling it farther into the solar system with a higher speed? Voyager came in from behind Jupiter, with respect to its path through the solar system. Because Jupiter was moving away from voyager, the gravitational field did not increase at 1/r^2, with respect to the solar system, as Voyager flew toward Jupiter. When it left Jupiter, it left at a more tangental velocity to Jupiter's orbit, so that the gravitational field of Jupiter fell off faster, leaving Voyager with a net potential increase in speed. This device, (patent 4,215,330) uses the work of several magnets to bring the ball up the ramp, but the work required to leave the system is the work required to leave the magnetic field of just 1 magnet. If the device were layed on a horzontal surface, and the effects of friction were ignored, the ball should shoot out of the end of the rail with a higher speed than it entered. The ball should in no case be trapped by the last magnet. Hasta, Craig Haynie ccHaynie ix.netcom.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 14:30:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA28006; Wed, 21 May 1997 14:25:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:25:09 -0700 Message-ID: <33829283.9B02DFDC microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:43:23 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Freenrg Subject: Re: Greg...critical question! X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199705210448.XAA06754 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LCFCC3.0.Pr6.nWsWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 01:25 PM 5/21/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: > > >Yes. Well not run but roll by itself. > > Maybe I'm being hard-headed here, Greg, but that statement is not clear and > seems a bit ambiguous. > > Just for the record could you please answer yes/no to the following: > > Does the simple O-U toy built from your own plans work in such as manner as > to create motion that continues unabated for many hours once started? > > Thanks. Hi Scott, In a simple single word answer (for the record) ....... YES! It rolls and rolls, around and around, up and down until you stop it (assuming the adjustments are in the middle of their ramge). With simple construction things can move. I have had a SMOT (Simple Magnetic OU Toy) rolling around and around for at best 3 hours and 27 minutes, at worst it even will not make it up and over one ramp! I am working on the design of the ramps and the way the magnet assys are adjusted to try to eliminate as much variation and widen out any narrow margins. Several others can tell you that once adjusted, the Phase two devices (multi linked straight ramps) will work every time, but the adjustments are tricky. I have never seen anything which would cause me to believe that the magnets are loosing strength during this process. The normal cause of a stoppage is for the spacing of the magnet assys at the top of the ramp to close or alter closer to the track and cause a hang or the ball sucked to one side. This is I believe because I retain the magnet assys with straight pins pushed into balse. Makes for easy adjustment. But the attractive forces between the magnets are greatest at the top of the ramp as the ball starts to exit and after several thousand passes, the magnets only have to move approx 0.25mm and things change. When you build a unit you will understand that my purpose with the SMOT is to prove mag ou is possible. Not to build a lab unit or anything that could work for a really long time. I am sure others will come up with better systems in time. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 14:31:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA28199; Wed, 21 May 1997 14:25:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:25:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3382954E.BFADBF4C microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:55:18 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Freenrg Subject: Re: Greg...critical question! X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RRsn33.0.Hu6.LXsWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > Sort of like a circular "Tomi" device. Up and down, round and round. > > Not too elegant, but it works. Don't get hung up on the way a "Tomi" > > works (or doesn't work), this is different. > > Speaking of the Tomi, the ANE Newsletter that was bundled with the most > recent IE magazine has a front page analysis of the Tomi -- these Academy > for New Energy guys (ANE) couldn't get the thing to work. > > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - Hi John, I, like many others spend quite a lot of time on the "Tomi" device. I couldn't get it to work either. But I didn't give up there and I spent several more days (weeks) doing intensive simulation of the Tomi device on QField. I stopped when I could demonstrate to me and anyone else why it couldn't work. Every failure is a golden opportunity to learn. Failures should not just be chucked into the nearest rubbish bin and forgotten. Investigate, learn, and listen to what mother nature is teaching, then think outside the square. And never give up until you KNOW why it doesn't work and why you got it wrong! Experience, the best teacher From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 14:49:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA01254; Wed, 21 May 1997 14:43:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:43:53 -0700 Date: 21 May 97 17:42:33 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Magnetic OU: Discussion is premature Message-ID: <970521214233_72240.1256_EHB121-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"WZAe71.0.WJ.OosWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7143 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Lynn Kurtz writes: Well, let me see if I can recall some sophomore physics from 30 years ago. Take the point where you released the ball as your starting point. You let it go, and the magnet attracts it, just as if you had let gravity pull a brick to ground level from 10 feet above the ground. In either case, if you wish to restore the ball or the brick to their respective starting points, you will have to work against the corresponding attractive fields to do so. Ignoring the small losses along the way, you will wind up with net work done of zero. That is where the conservation of energy is observed. Yes, right. That is what I remember from physics 20 years ago, and also from various childhood attempts to build perpetual motion machines with magnets. That's fine as far as it goes, but let us please remember the "the conservation of energy" is a *theory*. Therefore, it is at least conceivable that it is wrong. Chris Tinsley might say it is not even a theory because there is no underlying cause or structure assigned to it. It is merely an axiom or a conclusion based on often-repeated observations. I believe that Watson is saying that he observes an actual machine in operation. He has not said anything about theory, and he has not claimed anything pro or con the theory of conservation of energy yet. I'll grant that his observation does appear to violate the c. of e., but I think it is too early for a meaningful discussion of that topic. First, other people must observe the phenomenon. Five or 10 people, I should think. Then, let's establish that there is no attenuation of the magnets or other form of stored-up energy. That should be easy enough. Then, finally, we can start worrying about theories. With something this mind boggling, I think it is particularly important to put observations first, theory later. This is the rule for all science, but with such an extraordinary claim we must be careful to suspend judgment and eschew premature speculation. For one thing -- let's be honest -- the observation is likely to fade away. It is a waste of time to speculate about phenomena that never happen again and can never be replicated in any other lab. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 14:50:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA07437; Wed, 21 May 1997 06:30:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 06:30:32 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Biomass Fueled Internal Combustion Engines. Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:56:54 +0000 Message-ID: <19970521095652.AAA29100 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"dP8LI2.0.Vp1.qZlWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:33 AM 5/21/97 +0000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >I fear that this method of combustion would produce very fine >particulate ash, such as recently linked to many respiratory diseases. >Furthermore, none of this is necessary, as there are already methods >available for converting almost any form of bio-mass into ethanol, >which would IMO be a much less polluting fuel. > Lets see you affordably make ethanol out of animal dung, wheat straw, corn stover, grass and leaves, with less pollution. :-) Sure there are already methods to make ethanol out of fruits, grains, coal, methane, synthesis gas and so on, but at what cost economically-environmentally? Obviously, you can wet scrub the exhaust of the engines and use the ash for fertilizer. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Robin van Spaandonk >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on >temperature. >"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." >PS - no SPAM thanks! >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 15:04:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA03765; Wed, 21 May 1997 14:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: 21 May 97 17:16:50 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: Daily Telegraph, May 21, 1997, p22. Message-ID: <970521211650_100433.1541_GHQ106-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"70ezN3.0.lw.1YsWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7141 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Near half-page article, plus large recent photo of Dr Fleischmann. Highfield has been throughout one of the more negativist of science journos, and in that conext I find his penumtimate sentence of interest. And the last sentence is interesting, in that he appears to be saying that the science anomaly to which he refers is of no interest to science unless it has clear commercial prospects. Ah, well. Chris ------------- "The faithful father of cold fusion." ------------- Against the odds, Martin Fleischmann believes the Sun's energy source can be harnessed. Roger Highfield reports ------------- IT IS not every day that you meet a Fellow of the Royal Society who says his Big Idea could be worth $3OO trillion --and that is only based on old estimates that cite the first generation of commercial device. However, this is no common-or-laboratory fellow but Martin Fleischmann, the chemist who electrified the world with the promise of cold fusion, an apparently simple method to harness the energy source that powers the Sun. On March 23, 1989, Fleischmann and Stan Pons announced in Utah how they had sustained a controlled nuclear fusion reaction in a test-tube that generated up to 100 per cent more energy than they put in. Whatever happened to this potential source of unlimited energy, the greatest miracle -- or mistake -- this century? To find out, I decided to track down Dr Martin Fleischmann after hearing he had been grilled by the broadcaster John Humphrys (tomorrow, 9.30am. on Radio 4's On The Ropes). Now 70, Fleischmann lives in a Victorian house near Salisbury. His dream of unlimited energy is still alive: he is working hard on cold fusion, in league with a foreign laboratory he refuses to identify. "My main objective is to re-analyse some of the old results," said Fleischmann, his accent bearing the trace of his Czech upbringing. Still affected by a cancer operation almost a decade ago, Fleischmann sleeps fitfully. At any hour, he can be found combing pages of figures to develop new ways to highlight the excess heat produced by cold fusion -- when a current is passed through a palladium electrode dipped in heavy water. He still toys with the idea of doing experiments, perhaps abroad or perhaps he could set up a fusion reactor in the kitchen, if his wife Sheila is happy. "Of course, people would like to know what I am up to in toto but I am not going to tell them." Unlike most scientists, Fleischmann still believes cold fusion can generate useful energy. But even he admits it is make-or-break time. Although another international cold fusion conference is planned in Vancouver, "I think it may fizzle out". The numbers who attend the annual cold fusion conference remain around a couple of hundred "true believers" as sceptics call them. The field has also seen tragedy: a British researcher was blown up during one US experiment. As soon as we sat down, he began to recite the history of cold fusion. "I really started to think about the end of 1947." So began the quest for "anomalous nuclear reactions of deuterium in palladium". Other people coined the now-discredited term cold fusion, he said. I had imagined he would have been shredded by his mauling from the science establishment. But he seemed almost as feisty as when I first met him, in 1980, when I was a doctoral student visiting Southampton University and he was an innovative professor with an international reputation. His idea is ingenious. Rather than spend billions of dollars on heating hydrogen and tritium to 100 million degrees C and beyond, cold fusion exploits the way palladium metal soaks up deuterium. The rest, he says, is down to quantum field theory, which explains how deuterium nuclei can be squeezed together under the influence of an electric current so as to release energy. He and former Southampton student Stan Pons decided to work on the idea in the early 1980s. By the spring of 1989, they had spent $100,000 of their own money on the quest, carried out in secret in the basement of a building in Salt Lake City. The results were encouraging but news began to leak out on campus. Despite misgivings, they were stampeded into announcing their find to beat another researcher into the public domain. The chemists became Time and Newsweek cover stories. The US President and other world leaders demanded to know what was going on. The Vice-President of the Soviet Academy of Sciences offered to make all the Soviet Union's facilities available to them. A surveillance operation began, one which Fleischmann says continues to this day (he has written to his MP, Robert Keg, complaining that the bugging ruins his faxes). Then followed efforts to replicate the work. Leading scientists failed. Major laboratories also had a go: Caltech, MIT and Harwell in Oxfordshire. There were sporadic sightings of excess heat, which Fleischmann said cannot be accounted for by chemistry alone. Crucially, there were no tell-tale signs of nuclear processes, notably subatomic particles called neutrons. But they should have searched for helium 4 -the "ash" of nuclear fusion. This hunt has been hard but there is now "pretty good evidence" that this has been detected, said Fleischmann. These heavyweight laboratories also used the wrong palladium. They should have used "Johnson Matthey material A", he said. But I thought that he himself had advised the Harwell team? "I absolutely did not." I draw his attention to a claim that Pons made in 1993 that there would be household fusion generators by 2000. Yes, agreed Fleischmann, Stan had said it. But a journalist had released the quotation without permission. By this time, Pons and Fleischmann were working in Sofia Antipolis, a research park near Nice. Their previous venture, the National Cold Fusion Institute in Utah, had collapsed, as Fleischmann put it. Pons is still working in France. Fleischmann returned to England last year, frustrated by the lack of progress. Their relationship also ended: "We don't talk to each other. I am prepared to talk to him but he is not prepared to talk to me." To get a true picture of what is happening today, he insisted I scan a pile of papers he had neatly set out for me. "A clear cut picture... is still lacking," concluded one Italian team. Another, from the Russian People's Friendship University, said cold fusion is "rather illusive". THE NUCLEAR centre in Grenoble has reproduced his experiments, which he feels is important. Alas, like most of the papers, it is reported in cold fusion conference proceedings. I have not seen anything in the mainstream, peer reviewed, literature for years. "The New York Times said that you cannot make a heavier-than-air machine fly the day before the Wright brothers took off," said Fleischmann. So why doesn't he stage a knock-out demonstration of cold fusion? That is not technically possible for one man, he countered. When it comes to shenanigans in the field "you have no idea', he said, convinced there is a cloak-and-dagger effort to discredit cold fusion by "the suppression of research results, incorrect reporting and much else". He is the first to admit that to resort to conspiracy theories is "dodgy" bordering on desperate, but added: "I have a pretty complete dossier. If you put it all together, there is not much doubt that there are conspiracies." There is, of course, an explanation for the rejection of cold fusion. No one doubts his suggestion that by exploring the phenomenon we may stumble on new science. But the field now seems unlikely ever to realise that holy grail of unlimited energy. [end] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 15:05:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA06134; Wed, 21 May 1997 15:00:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:00:06 -0700 Message-ID: <33837014.2835D0C7 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:28:44 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: Simple Ou Toy web sites] X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KGGpD1.0.XV1.a1tWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7144 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 3:19 PM 5/21/97, Greg Watson wrote: > [snip] > > > >My Simple Magnetic Ou Toy is a modification of the Hartman patent > >(4,215,330) using multi curved ramps. You are correct, it does work! > >Building and adjusting the magnetic contours is tricky. The ramp > >designs I will present, make it easy to develop the skill necessary to > >master the adjustments. > > > [snip] > > It seems like plastic or even glass tubing should be fairly easy to adjust. > Is there some reason rails are necessary? > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hi Horace, Tubing was my first choice, but I quickly found that it allows the ball to slop sideways and not travel on the "Neutral Line". The side to side attractive magnetic forces are much greater than the up the ramp forces and it is critical for the ball to be restrained from ANY side ways movement, but be allowed unrestricted up the ramp movement. The rails came out as the best solution. Even with rails, unbalanced side forces can increase frictional losses very quickly and reduce up the ramp energy gain. Like all machines, you just got to KNOW now to make the stupid thing (sorry mother nature) work. Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 15:41:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA31500; Wed, 21 May 1997 14:35:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:35:14 -0700 Message-ID: <33836A3F.614B2360 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:03:51 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg , List Server Vortex Subject: Request for photographs X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KfG2e.0.xh7.GgsWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7142 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, In setting up the SMOT (Simple Magnetic Ou Toy) discussion and construction project, I would request any of my original constructor group to send me, via attachments, photos of the ramps you have constructed. If you have achieved multi ramps so much the better. You can do this three ways : 1) Take a photo and have in scanned into a jpeg file on a floppy. 2) Take a digital photo and convert it to jpeg. 3) Take your ramp to a computer shop with a digital camera and do step 2. The photos and constructors will be shown on the web sites hosting this project. I appreciate your efforts, then, now and in the future. Thanks in advance, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 15:58:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA24733; Wed, 21 May 1997 15:52:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:52:18 -0700 Message-ID: <33837C2C.6D7300FE microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:20:20 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Hartmann CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com, List Server Vortex Subject: Re: How many hours ? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <97052123241107 odin> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"o9EuB1.0.826.WotWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7146 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stefan Hartmann wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > just curious: > > How many hours did your device already run continiously now ? 1) The SMOT (Simple Magnetic Ou Toy) achieved approx 3.5 hours. 2) The RMOD (Rotary Magnetic Ou Device, the one I am patenting) ran for just on 4 days before it got tired (Not the magnets, just the physical construction). I have stopped it now and I am building a plexi-glass unit. "See NO Wires". > Maybe you can post an update on this ? See above. > Good luck for building the new toy thing... > > Regards, STefan. Best regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 16:06:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA11681; Wed, 21 May 1997 15:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:30:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705212230.RAA09856 dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: Patent Examiner Duggan? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"36-gt.0.Ns2.GWtWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7145 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 5/21/97 ES wrote: snip >>Come now, Mr. Soule'. Aren't you an attorney? You know full well >>that Judge Penfield Jackson was the sole finder of fact for the court >>as well as judge in this case. He may weigh any and all evidence as >>he sees fit. He is not bound by Duggan or any special master. Also, >>you take the special masters "overwhelming evidence" statement >>totally out of context. You have consistantly refused to publish, on >>this list or any other list, the exact content of the special masters >>findings. Just more smoke and mirrors, Mr Soule'. Tell this list Mr. Soule, are you an attorney or not? snip >As to "refused to publish the exact content of the Special Master's >findings" this is more of your either lies or misconceptions. From >he standpoint of the evaluation of the operability of the technology, >have published a direct quotation from the Report of the Special >aster. If you want more, check the court records -- it's all there. My word, Mr. Soule, less emotion please. If Newman paid $11,000 for the special report as you claim below and it is supportive of your claims, I can not for the life of me understand why you just don't publish it in it's entirety for this list and clear up all the misconceptions that people have of you and Mr. Newman. Think of the wonderful PR. >Joseph Newman's attorney expressed the opinion that Jackson was >clearly biased from the beginning against Joseph Newman and Jackson >clearly expected that his own expert would certainly dismiss Joseph >Newman's technology as inoperable. When this didn't happen, Jackson >was less-than-pleased. More legal incompetence/malpractice to express the opinion that Judge Jackson was clearly biased from the beginning. Heh! Heh! So Judge Penfield Jackson, a Federal Judge, sitting at a bench trial without a jury and the sole finder of fact for the court was less than pleased when he was notified he was biased from the beginning? Knowing this judge's reputation, you're lucky you guys got out of there and not thrown in jail for your arrogance and contempt of court. Actually, Newman may have had a cause of action against his attorney, Flannery, for legal malpractice. snip >Jackson is both a liar and a hypocrite. Perhaps Jackson refined these >"attributes" while he was an attorney for John Mitchell during the >Watergate scandal and also an attorney for the notoriously corrupt >finance division of the Committee to Re-elect the President (CREEP). Evan it's not wise to make such statements as above if you plan on having the case retried in another district court. These judges are all friends and attacking one is usually seen as an attack on all collectively. Unfortunately you're falling into the same belligerant, arrogant mode as Newman and Flannery, even before the games begin. BTW, how did your appeal turn out? >Gyroscopically yours, > >Evan Soule' >Director of Information Are you indeed Newman's spin doctor? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 16:43:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA14851; Wed, 21 May 1997 16:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion To: vortex-l eskimo.com (vortex-l) Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:08:02 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-nk-W2.0.xd3.c2uWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7147 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Craig Haynie wrote: > Isn't this the same principle that Voyager used when it used the > gravitational attraction of Jupiter to increase its kinetic energy and > sling it farther into the solar system with a higher speed? Voyager came > in from behind Jupiter, with respect to its path through the solar > system. Because Jupiter was moving away from voyager, the gravitational > field did not increase at 1/r^2, with respect to the solar system, as > Voyager flew toward Jupiter. When it left Jupiter, it left at a more > tangental velocity to Jupiter's orbit, so that the gravitational field > of Jupiter fell off faster, leaving Voyager with a net potential > increase in speed. There is a more intuitive way to understand the planetary "slingshot" effect (which I owe to a forgotten usenet poster.) Simply imagine throwing a tennis ball at a speeding car headed toward you. The ball will bounce back with greater net speed (but the car will slow down ever so slightly.) Now imagine throwing a tennis ball at a car headed away from you. If you throw it fast enough to overtake and hit the car, it will bounce back weakly (lose velocity) but the car will be accelerated ever so slightly. The details of a gravitation versus collision interaction vary, but the net result and its "conservation forces" do not. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 17:11:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA19255; Wed, 21 May 1997 16:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:46:00 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion is premature In-Reply-To: <970521214233_72240.1256_EHB121-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Cmh843.0.li4.ccuWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7149 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 21 May 1997, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Yes, right. That is what I remember from physics 20 years ago, and also from > various childhood attempts to build perpetual motion machines with magnets. > That's fine as far as it goes, but let us please remember the "the > conservation of energy" is a *theory*. Therefore, it is at least conceivable > that it is wrong. Chris Tinsley might say it is not even a theory because > there is no underlying cause or structure assigned to it. It is merely an > axiom or a conclusion based on often-repeated observations. > No, there is a very deep and fundamental reason we think energy is conserved apart from the overwhelming experimental evidence. If one assumes that time is isotropic, ie the laws of Physics do not change with time, Energy Conservation follows. You should have had an Australian Physics education. We teach that in the 2nd year of our B.Sc. course for Physics majors :-). Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 17:34:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA14676; Wed, 21 May 1997 17:27:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:27:45 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338392F4.2224 math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:27:32 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: for Merryman References: <970521110244_-1196852174 emout16.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sCIOH3.0.Eb3.0CvWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7151 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > > Berry I just got my grades back. I got an A in Nuclear. > What did you get? > > Frank Z A Phd. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 17:43:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA23119; Wed, 21 May 1997 17:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <33838FC3.40C0 math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:13:55 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank References: <970521110524_100433.1541_GHQ100-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"o_irp1.0.9f5.X0vWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > Barry, > > > Not avoiding. My science research has real and imaginary parts, > > and CF is the imaginary part. :-). I've been busy with the real > > part the last few weeks. > > But you don't answer my questions. Why review Longchampt without > reviewing the PLA P&F paper? ... read the P&F paper, the debate > with Morrison and the New Scientist article, *and* then comment > on this 'microcosm of CF'. > > NONE OF THEM EVER DO. Bascially, as I said in a recent reply to Jed, that is what I will do. I started by reading the Longchampt paper becuase I had it in hand, and everyone had said what a meticulous replication it was. As I said, I am open to suggestions as to what paper to review---though I have enough to hold me for now. I think to is most natural to roll all the papers discussed above into one "review" since they are all interrelated. > I thank God that the whole matter is largely out of your hands. I thank God that deciding any scientific issue is largely out of the hands of any one human being. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 17:52:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA26314; Wed, 21 May 1997 17:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: 21 May 97 20:28:32 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion is premature Message-ID: <970522002831_100433.1541_GHQ62-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"lQ8ii.0.1R6.BHvWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7152 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin, > If one assumes that time is isotropic, ie the laws of Physics do > not change with time, Energy Conservation follows. But, to play devil's advocate, the "laws of physics" are so inextricably bound in with the Principle (bot Law) of Energy Conservation as to make such an argument essentially circular. The Principle was in fact put forward in the 1840s to *explain* the lack of any perpetual motion machines. It is now used tp *prove* that they cannot exist. That may be a valid argument, but it is illogical and it is circular. Which is not to say that there may not be any valid argument - just to say that you've not stated one. By the way, the Principle was regarded at the time as so 'weird' that it was denied publication by Deutch Annalen Physik. It had to be presented at a fringe meeting. > You should have had an Australian Physics education. Ah, the land where men are men and kangaroos are nervous... Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 17:52:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA18530; Wed, 21 May 1997 17:48:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:48:54 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:47:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970521204629_-664570232 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion Resent-Message-ID: <"kkWCV3.0.SX4.rVvWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7153 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 5/21/97 8:33:04 PM, the following question was asked: <> Magnetic field energy is decreased as object moves into and quenches part of the field distribution; shows up as kinetic energy of the object moving toward the magnet. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 18:02:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA18709; Wed, 21 May 1997 17:50:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:50:06 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <33839834.108E math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:49:56 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: How many hours ? References: <97052123241107 odin> <33837C2C.6D7300FE@microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0HBO21.0.Ba4.zWvWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7154 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > 1) The SMOT (Simple Magnetic Ou Toy) achieved approx 3.5 hours. > That seems extremely important. The major question is: could you restart it? If not, that is fairly clear evidence that it exhausted some small amount of energy stored in the system, Also, as a benchmark, if the magnets are not present and the ball is released from the highest point on the track ( how high is that?), how long will it stay in motion before coming to a full stop. This (plus knowing the release height) lets you calculate the rate of energy loss for the mechanical part of the system. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 18:13:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA22070; Wed, 21 May 1997 18:08:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:08:11 -0700 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:07:53 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion is premature In-Reply-To: <970522002831_100433.1541_GHQ62-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"LUWMP1.0.mO5.wnvWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7155 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Chris Tinsley wrote: > Martin, > > > If one assumes that time is isotropic, ie the laws of Physics do > > not change with time, Energy Conservation follows. > > But, to play devil's advocate, the "laws of physics" are so inextricably > bound in with the Principle (bot Law) of Energy Conservation as to make > such an argument essentially circular. The Principle was in fact > put forward in the 1840s to *explain* the lack of any perpetual motion > machines. It is now used tp *prove* that they cannot exist. > You may well be right about the historical ordering by which the principle of Energy Conservation was first proposed. However, with the development of Classical Machanics in 19-century, it became possible to mathematically prove the principle of energy conservation with the above assumptions. Of course the assumptions may be wrong, but if you don't apply boundary conditions you get no solutions worth a damm. I was responding to a point made by Jed. There is a fundamental reason we think energy must be conserved beyond that it has always been found to be true. To go even more off-topic, I have to disagree with about operating systems. Computers were invented to make humans lives easier. If computer power and memory is now cheap enough to make good human interfaces so be it. On the hand it doesn't have to be Windows 95! As an old hacker you should put linux (a free version of Unix) on your PC. You get all the functionality of Windows with a LOT less of the overhead. The downside is you'll spend days and days searching for drivers for the unsophisticated hardware on your machine. I must admit I've succumbed to Microsoft. There's logic in this statement. We are Microsoft. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated It's far easier to go with the flow but I don't have to like it. Cheers, Martin Sevior PS. Are you following the cricket this summer? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 21:26:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA19714; Wed, 21 May 1997 20:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3383C2B9.2396 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 03:51:21 +0000 From: Craig Haynie Reply-To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com.erp X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bdrJB1.0.xp4.-GyWp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7156 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > > Craig Haynie wrote: > > Isn't this the same principle that Voyager used when it used the > > gravitational attraction of Jupiter to increase its kinetic energy and > > sling it farther into the solar system with a higher speed? Voyager came > > in from behind Jupiter, with respect to its path through the solar > > system. Because Jupiter was moving away from voyager, the gravitational > > field did not increase at 1/r^2, with respect to the solar system, as > > Voyager flew toward Jupiter. When it left Jupiter, it left at a more > > tangental velocity to Jupiter's orbit, so that the gravitational field > > of Jupiter fell off faster, leaving Voyager with a net potential > > increase in speed. > > There is a more intuitive way to understand the planetary "slingshot" > effect (which I owe to a forgotten usenet poster.) > > Simply imagine throwing a tennis ball at a speeding car headed toward > you. The ball will bounce back with greater net speed (but the car will > slow down ever so slightly.) > > Now imagine throwing a tennis ball at a car headed away from you. If > you throw it fast enough to overtake and hit the car, it will bounce > back weakly (lose velocity) but the car will be accelerated ever so > slightly. > > The details of a gravitation versus collision interaction vary, but the > net result and its "conservation forces" do not. > > -- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - Understood! I now think that my whole approach is incorrect. You can't use conservation of energy to disprove conservation of energy! My knowledge of physics is very limited, (though I was 2nd in my class in high school), nevertheless, I do want to build this thing, but I agree with Jed that discussing theory is way premature. There is one thing driving me on this, though: there are now 3 people who have seen Mr. Watson's 'patented' device in action: the original author, the patent examiner, and now Mr. Watson. This tells me that this is certainly worth investigating -- at least for $20.00. Hasta, Craig Haynie ccHaynie ix.netcom.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 21 22:11:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA25459; Wed, 21 May 1997 22:06:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 22:06:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199705220506.BAA09918 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: Martin Sevior , vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 01:34:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion is premature Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal References: <970521214233_72240.1256_EHB121-1 CompuServe.COM> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"WQbyw1.0.jD6.ZHzWp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7157 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 22 May 97 at 9:46, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > From: Martin Sevior > Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion is premature > No, there is a very deep and fundamental reason we think energy is > conserved apart from the overwhelming experimental evidence. If one > assumes that time is isotropic, ie the laws of Physics do not change > with time, Energy Conservation follows. You should have had an > Australian Physics education. We teach that in the 2nd year of our > B.Sc. course for Physics majors :-). Thank goodness there's at least one civilized country left on Earth! (Tinsley's remark about kangaroos notwithstanding...) You could add that, by the same logic, the isotropy of *space* is a fundamental reason for Conservation of Momentum. Taken together, the isotropy of time and space implying conservation of Energy and Momentum, goes under the name of Noether's Theorem, named for Austrian mathematician Emmy Noether, who proved same ca. 1910 using variational methods. Question: What's the latest take on Noether's Theorem? Has it ever been extended, eg to connect to Second-Law ideas (entropy and order)? Can it be worked in *reverse*? Example, could tapping a hidden energy source (eg, ZPE) show up as an apparent NON-isotropy of time? Best regards, Bob Flower ======================================================= Robert G. Flower, Applied Science Associates Quality Control Engineering Instrumentation Systems - Technology Transfer ======================================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 00:12:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA05727; Wed, 21 May 1997 23:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970522065052.00a3af98 mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:50:52 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion Resent-Message-ID: <"5vDet2.0.OP1.kq-Wp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7158 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:47 PM 5/21/97 -0400, you wrote: > >In a message dated 5/21/97 8:33:04 PM, the following question was asked: > ><pulls something toward it, it does work, but where is the conservation >of energy?>> > >Magnetic field energy is decreased as object moves into and quenches part of >the field distribution; shows up as kinetic energy of the object moving >toward the magnet. > >Hal Puthoff > > > Personally, I think they are little ether vacuum cleaners, ether being pulled through furiously. Gary From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 00:53:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA10313; Thu, 22 May 1997 00:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: 22 May 97 03:33:22 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Subject: Re: Ucar means a dynamometer Message-ID: <970522073321_100060.173_JHB83-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"uojUO3.0.2X2.7U_Wp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7159 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John, >> If you have a 500 foot run of garden hose and you measure the static pressure on the end (the water exit is stoppered) you'll get a nice high pressure. Then if you unstopper it and measure flow rate, you'll get some rate. But if you multiply the dynamic flow rate by the static pressure to find power you'll get a very wrong answer. << While your analogy is not quite accurate, the effect is similar to the chain (or any dynamic system for that matter - look at the impedance of an electrical circuit under dc and ac current for that matter), where the force to initiate motion is greater than that required to maintain it - ignoring air resistance and such. Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 02:29:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA18386; Thu, 22 May 1997 02:21:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 02:21:11 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: How many hours ? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:21:07 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <33839834.108E math.ucla.edu> from "Barry Merriman" at May 21, 97 05:49:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZZ7TA1.0.CV4.601Xp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7160 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: > Also, as a benchmark, if the magnets are not present and the ball > is released from the highest point on the track ( how high is > that?), how long will it stay in motion before coming to a full > stop. This (plus knowing the release height) lets you calculate the > rate of energy loss for the mechanical part of the system. For a gravitational device, such as the Hartman patent, the answer must clearly be less than once, unless the ball is given an extra initial push. The Hartman device apparently allows the ball to start from zero velocity -- thus insuring that even a second time through the loop has demonstrated O/U. A rotary device, on the other hand, could theoretically spin forever given a single push and zero drag. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 02:47:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA17698; Thu, 22 May 1997 02:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 02:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338410E1.6E3 csinet.net> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:24:52 -0500 From: Tom Kenny Reply-To: tkenny csinet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion References: <33833DB5.B99@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rww4Y2.0.SK4.L21Xp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7161 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Craig Haynie wrote: > When a permanent magnet pulls something toward it, it does work, but > where is the conservation of energy? > You have to do work to now remove he steel ball from the magnet, so in the long run, energy is conserved. Also, when the ball is away from the magnet, it has potential energy. As it approaches the magnet, it speeds up, converting potential to kinetic. If the magnet lifts the ball up, you are convereting potential energy from the magnet into gravitational potential. -- Tom Kenny, LT USNR Recreational Zymurgist, Professional Plasticator From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 03:54:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA26929; Thu, 22 May 1997 03:53:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 03:53:17 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Leaning Tower Of Pisa and Heat Pipes? Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:52:40 +0000 Message-ID: <19970522105239.AAA23826 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"uJ-U1.0.ea6.SM2Xp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7162 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex: If some vertical gravity condensate-return heat pipes are placed several feet deep around the base of the Leaning Tower of Pisa and cooled using refrigeration units to pull the heat from the earth around the base, if the expansion of the freezing soil is properly controlled one might get this erection back to the vertical. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 04:56:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA26829; Thu, 22 May 1997 04:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:39:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Geothermal Heat Pipe Wells and Heat Pumps. Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:38:25 +0000 Message-ID: <19970522113823.AAA4555 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"l6-lr2.0.7Z6.E23Xp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: A ordinary tube water well where the water level is deeper than 30 feet, if evacuated to about 0.5 in Hg (13 Torr) or so will provide a geothermal heat source at about 60 deg F. A heat pump extracting the heat of condensation of the water vapor rising from the water table in this "Heat Pipe" should have a coefficient of performance, C.O.P = Th/(Th - Tc) of about 10 with a heat rejection temperature (Th) of 120 F. Can the "Yusmar" beat that? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 05:43:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA02672; Thu, 22 May 1997 05:35:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 05:35:47 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC66B5.04A3F920 ppp63.enterprise.net> From: Mike Butcher To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Leaning Tower Of Pisa and Heat Pipes? Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:02:22 +0100 Encoding: 21 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"tZkBV1.0.cf.Ys3Xp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- From: Frederick J. Sparber[SMTP:frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net] To Vortex: If some vertical gravity condensate-return heat pipes are placed several feet deep around the base of the Leaning Tower of Pisa and cooled using refrigeration units to pull the heat from the earth around the base, if the expansion of the freezing soil is properly controlled one might get this erection back to the vertical. :-) Regards, Frederick i.e. a cure for architectural impotence ? Regards, Mike Butcher From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 06:37:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA09366; Thu, 22 May 1997 06:34:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 06:34:56 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705220828.ZM253 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:28:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" "Leaning Tower Of Pisa and Heat Pipes?" (May 22, 5:47am) References: <19970522105239.AAA23826 LOCALNAME> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Leaning Tower Of Pisa and Heat Pipes? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"i8xJY3.0.GI2._j4Xp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On May 22, 5:47am, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > If some vertical gravity condensate-return heat pipes are placed > several feet deep around the base of the Leaning Tower of Pisa and > cooled using refrigeration units to pull the heat from the earth > around the base, if the expansion of the freezing soil is properly > controlled one might get this erection back to the vertical. :-) Except that it has since been architecturally stablized. Leaning is it's equalibrium state now. Neat idea though. I take it that the heat pipes would then become a permanent reinforcement like with the pipeline stanchions? How realistic would be a self cooling heat pipe refrigerator based on the same setup? -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 06:40:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA06081; Thu, 22 May 1997 06:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 06:21:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: RE: Leaning Tower Of Pisa and Heat Pipes? Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:19:51 +0000 Message-ID: <19970522131949.AAA19216 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"QhlRg1.0.xU1.SX4Xp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:02 AM 5/22/97 +0000, Mike Butcher wrote: > >---------- >From: Frederick J. Sparber[SMTP:frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net] > >To Vortex: > >If some vertical gravity condensate-return heat pipes are placed >several feet deep around the base of the Leaning Tower of Pisa and >cooled using refrigeration units to pull the heat from the earth >around the base, if the expansion of the freezing soil is properly >controlled one might get this erection back to the vertical. :-) > >Regards, Frederick > >i.e. a cure for architectural impotence ? > >Regards, Mike Butcher > One might also consider putting clock on the Tower. "There is no point to having the inclination if you don't have the time." You will notice over where they have "Big Ben" on a tower they have lots of time, but, very little inclination. Right,Chris? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 07:37:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA11540; Thu, 22 May 1997 07:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: 22 May 97 10:09:40 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Which paper to review Message-ID: <970522140940_72240.1256_EHB72-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"LFKEI1.0.Bq2.JG5Xp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Barry Merriman writes: I started by reading the Longchampt [Lonchampt] paper because I had it in hand, and everyone had said what a meticulous replication it was. As I said, I am open to suggestions as to what paper to review---though I have enough to hold me for now. I think to is most natural to roll all the papers discussed above into one "review" since they are all interrelated. Barry, I think it is most natural -- and obvious -- that you should review the most authoritative, impressive, detailed and complete papers in the literature. I cannot understand why you would begin with Lonchampt when you have Fleischmann, Miles and McKubre. Anyone can tell at a glance that they explain the calorimetry in far greater detail than Lonchampt, and they used better instruments. I think you have deliberately picked the weakest paper in the lot because you know that you could not possibly find an error in the others. You are hoping to find some minor weakness in Lonchampt that you can blow up out of proportion, to give the impression the other papers are questionable. Your methods are now clear. You began by picking marginal papers far from the mainstream that describe unique and still-unreplicated work, like Miley and E-Quest. You are trying to create the impression that cold fusion experiments are done once, by isolated groups, with no follow-up and no independent replication. Now, you have selected the weakest of the several papers I sent you, and you pretend you "don't have time" for the others. This reminds me of Hoffman, who spent two years and more than $100,000 writing a book about cold fusion, yet somehow he never found time to discuss or include in the bibliography a single paper about excess heat! You may not be consciously setting out to write a bigoted hatchet job, but by every indication that is what you will accomplish. You ask for suggestions. Are you serious? I suggest you stop screwing around and get to the heart of the matter. The principal signature of the reaction is heat. The proof of cold fusion is in calorimetry: static, flow, and thermoelectric. Static calorimetry was perfected by J. P. Joule in the 1840s; the other two methods were perfected by 1910 and 1950 respectively. You can get detailed textbooks on these subjects. If you are going to find an error, you must show that Pons and Fleischmann, Miles, McKubre, Oriani, Bockris and the other leading electrochemists are doing the calorimetry wrong. Compare their work to the textbooks and show us where they have blundered. Stop evading the issue. Read the major papers and show us where they are wrong. If you cannot do that, you must admit they are right, the excess heat is real and beyond the limits of chemistry, and cold fusion is real. It is that simple. The proof of cold fusion has nothing to do with nuclear physics. The Fleischmann and Lonchampt papers do not make reference to any physics beyond that which was perfected decades before the American Civil War. They depend upon things like Newton's law of cooling and the number of calories it takes to vaporize a given mass of water. Are you or are you not able to analyze this level of physics? More to the point, are Pons and Fleischmann, Miley and Lonchampt capable of doing this level of physics? Tell us: Yes or No. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 07:55:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA13607; Thu, 22 May 1997 07:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:27:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199705221427.KAA21009 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <199705220506.BAA09918 mail.enter.net> (chronos@enter.net) Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion is premature Resent-Message-ID: <"pnjMi.0.WK3.Fb5Xp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7168 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert G. Flower (chronos enter.net) said: > You could add that, by the same logic, the isotropy of *space* is a > fundamental reason for Conservation of Momentum. Another theory destroyed by an ugly fact? (Recent astronomical results showing that space is not isotropic.) And we do know that in the Big Bang model with an open universe, time is not isotropic as well. So both conservation theories are at best good, locally true approximations. > Can it be worked in *reverse*? Example, could tapping a hidden > energy source (eg, ZPE) show up as an apparent NON-isotropy of > time? Yes, and in particular the inflation of the early universe (assuming it occured) is just one example. Of course, in the quantum fluctuation model, the entire universe can be considered to be an example. Of course, if you really want to "save" Noether's Theorem, you can assume that conservation holds for whatever the universe is embedded in. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 08:34:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA19066; Thu, 22 May 1997 08:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:14:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Chuck Davis To: John Steck Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:30:42 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9705220828.ZM253 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.4 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: Leaning Tower Of Pisa and Heat Pipes? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"mZqU1.0.pf4.YB6Xp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 22-May-97, John Steck wrote: >On May 22, 5:47am, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >> If some vertical gravity condensate-return heat pipes are placed >> several feet deep around the base of the Leaning Tower of Pisa and >> cooled using refrigeration units to pull the heat from the earth >> around the base, if the expansion of the freezing soil is properly >> controlled one might get this erection back to the vertical. :-) >Except that it has since been architecturally stablized. Leaning is it's >equalibrium state now. Neat idea though. I take it that the heat pipes would >then become a permanent reinforcement like with the pipeline stanchions? >How realistic would be a self cooling heat pipe refrigerator based on the same >setup? Excuse me. Of what turist value is a `Perpendicular Tower of Pisa'? ;^) -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 09:21:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA23370; Thu, 22 May 1997 08:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:50:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Leaning Tower Of Pisa and Heat Pipes? Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:47:00 +0000 Message-ID: <19970522154658.AAA19782 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"CjhrH3.0.4j5.mi6Xp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:28 PM 5/22/97 +0000, John Steck wrote: >On May 22, 5:47am, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >> If some vertical gravity condensate-return heat pipes are placed >> several feet deep around the base of the Leaning Tower of Pisa and >> cooled using refrigeration units to pull the heat from the earth >> around the base, if the expansion of the freezing soil is properly >> controlled one might get this erection back to the vertical. :-) > >Except that it has since been architecturally stablized. Leaning is it's >equalibrium state now. Neat idea though. I take it that the heat pipes would >then become a permanent reinforcement like with the pipeline stanchions? There patents related to using the geothermal "heat syphoning" with heat pipes to retard icing on highways. I havent looked closely at the www.uspto.gov site on these, lately. > >How realistic would be a self cooling heat pipe refrigerator based on the same >setup? > I'm a bit thick here, John, (full moon last night?)I don't follow where you intend to reject the heat. The heat pipes are useful all the way down to liquid helium temperatures if you have a heat sink. On the high end, the use of the alkali metals (including calcium)as a working fluid has been done. The heat transfer rate is phenomenal. Los Alamos had a stainless unit about 1/2 inch diameter and a meter long with a wick made of nickel mesh, with lithium as a working fluid they could heat it at the top in a vertical position with an R.F. coil and turn it white hot along the length with only a few degrees temperature between the top and bottom. Regards, Frederick >-- >John E. Steck >Motorola Inc. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 10:45:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA15403; Thu, 22 May 1997 10:40:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:40:45 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705221234.ZM1777 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:34:21 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" "Re: Leaning Tower Of Pisa and Heat Pipes?" (May 22, 11:00am) References: <19970522154658.AAA19782 LOCALNAME> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Heat Pipes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"lzAY_3.0.Wm3.RK8Xp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On May 22, 11:00am, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > I'm a bit thick here, John, (full moon last night?)I don't follow where you > intend to reject the heat. The heat pipes are useful all the way down to > liquid helium temperatures if you have a heat sink. If I am understanding the technology correctly, heat can be wicked in a single direction. Wick it out of an insulated enclosure and convection or evaporatively cool it away outside the enclosure. Basically use the outside environment as your heat sink. I don't see it replacing a compressor completely in most cases, but could help contribute to it running a lot less often. -- John E. Steck Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 10:52:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA17995; Thu, 22 May 1997 10:47:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:47:48 -0700 Date: 22 May 97 12:32:06 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Mike Fisher sounds sensible Message-ID: <970522163206_72240.1256_EHB45-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"OMlJK2.0.aO4.-Q8Xp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I commented on a short quote from Mike Fisher, taken out of context. He offered a fuller explanation of his ideas. He sounds sensible. He says he has "not seen any over unity magnetic motors or anti-gravity machines either." I gather he is still looking at oddball energy devices. I guess I am glad someone is doing it, but as I said, if I had looked carefully for a long time and found nothing, I would get discouraged and quit. I apologize for writing: The wishful thinking of Fisher and the magnetic motor people is no more outlandish than the reasons dredged up by Huizenga and Hoffman to dismiss cold fusion. He responded "I have never dismissed cold fusion." I did not mean to imply that. I mean that all three groups are guilty of wishful thinking: Huizenga wishes cold fusion would go away; the magnetic motor people wish their gadgets actually worked; and Fisher wishes that some o-u machine somewhere would work. Of the three, Fisher has the most reason to hope, but I still think he is too optimistic. He asks: And please don't classify me as one of the "magnetic motor people". Yes we have checked out quite a few magnetic motors and generators, but we've also evaluated dozens of other technologies not in the slightest related to magnetic motors. Okay. I wasn't aware of that. You're right there is no reason to associate CF with magnetic motors and I never have. Where did you draw that erroneous conclusion? I didn't mean Fisher *per se*, I meant that people often do that. I do however believe that CF has tapped into some primordial energy field in some peculiar way. I am therefore open to this portal being traversed in a multitude of ways. Many people say so, but I do not understand why. The most likely explanation is that CF has tapped into nuclear energy: a combination of fission and fusion. There is copious evidence of nuclear ash including helium, tritium, and nuclear transmutations. Until we are certain there is not commensurate nuclear ash in every experiment, I don't see why anyone "believes" CF taps anything more primordial than the nucleus. And isn't that primordial enough?!? I might speculate or wonder if CF is really ZPE, but I would not "believe" it. Thanks for your comments about me barking up the wrong tree. Which of the 20 technologies we are investigating are the wrong trees? I recommend you ignore or cease investigating any technology which: 1. Cannot be reproduced in six months by experts. 2. Does not produce high signal to noise results in many experiments. The results must be unequivocal. 3. For things like magnet motors which the inventor claims work on demand, you should toss out any that do not work instantly, on demand, in every case. 4. As a practical matter, ignore machines which the inventors refuse to document, demonstrate, sell or loan. People might be surprised to see me list points 1 and 2. Only two o-u technologies I know of give *any* indication of working. They are cold fusion and Griggs device. Both were verified quickly at a high Sigma. By the fall 1989 there were dozens of quality replications of CF, by people like McKubre, Storms and Bockris. (The scientific controversy should have ended then, or no later than the McKubre ICCF2 paper.) Regarding the Johnson quote: "Every man who attacks my belief . . . makes me uneasy; and I am angry with him who makes me uneasy," Fisher writes: Dr Johnson at times wrote some wise words. I applaud him for expressing his feelings of hurt pride however they are not very wise. Such emotional honesty is laudable, however anger at criticism, although perfectly natural, often has the effect of blocking the path to progress . . . Johnson was being sarcastic. That's British "humour" [sic]. It's over your head. Even back in 1775, when Dr. J. said that, we Americans just didn't get it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 10:59:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA16786; Thu, 22 May 1997 10:45:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:45:45 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Leaning Tower Of Pisa and Heat Pipes? Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:44:33 +0000 Message-ID: <19970522174431.AAA22381 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"heri3.0.C64.8P8Xp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:30 PM 5/22/97 +0000, Chuck Davis wrote: > > Excuse me. Of what turist value is a `Perpendicular Tower of Pisa'? ;^) None whatsoever! Superman was severely ostracized for straightening it up the last time. :-) Regards, Frederick >-- > .-. .-. > / \ .-. .-. / \ > / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ >-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- > RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / > \ / `-' `-' \ / > `-' `-' > www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 11:10:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA05740; Thu, 22 May 1997 10:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:14:39 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <338184F9.D0D00C98 microtronics.com.au> from "Greg Watson" at May 20, 97 08:33:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EkWdz3.0.VP1.8z7Xp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > 1) The Simple OU Toy is not my rotary device. Same leg action, > different dog. > 2) It is a closed loop version of the patent 4,215,330, with > improvements. A word of warning to replicators of the Hartman 4,215,330 patent: A single pass through the device might not verify the operation of a closed loop version. The Hartman device might contain somewhat of an illusion. Namely, though the gradual slope up and the steep slope down guarantee that the ball returns to the same gravitational potential (assuming the thing actually works) there is no obvious guarantee that the ball also returns to the same magnetic potential. Clearly the magnetic field is strongest above the "knee" in order to pull the ball up to the knee point. The steep slope down puts the ball at a point closer to the strongest magnetic field than the starting point down the more distant shallow slope. It is very important to actually demonstrate that the ball can return to the exact same starting point (close the loop.) Otherwise the ball might actually have "fallen" to a lower potential energy position that prohibits further motion, ala conservation of energy rules. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 11:23:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA28714; Thu, 22 May 1997 11:18:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:18:58 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <33848DFC.A93 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:18:36 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Which paper to review References: <970522140940_72240.1256_EHB72-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"521xg1.0.Y07.Gu8Xp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > I cannot understand why you would begin with Lonchampt when you have > Fleischmann, Miles and McKubre. Rest assured I will read/review those as well. > Read the major papers and show us where they are wrong. > If you cannot do that, you must admit they are right I don't see things in this dichotomy. Just because I cannot find an error does not mean no errors exist, and just because I find something questionable does not mean it is really an error. All I can do is read a paper and point out the pro's and con's as I see them. The ultimate truth is reached by N people doing this, and interacting with eachother and doing experiments, in the limit as N -> infinity. I undoubtedly will reach some "personal truth" (= opinion) from the review, but I expect the opinion to be of the form: "high quality, unassailable, repeatable research has been done" or "NOT ... ". A secondary opinion may or may not form on whether nuclear reactions occur in solids. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 11:32:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA09254; Thu, 22 May 1997 11:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: 22 May 97 14:07:17 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank Message-ID: <970522180717_100433.1541_BHG49-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"TbtJY.0.SG2.nl8Xp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry, > > I thank God that the whole matter is largely out of your hands. > > I thank God that deciding any scientific issue is largely out of > the hands of any one human being. Naughty, naughty. In my whole sentence, 'your' was plural. That's the kind of thing I was referring to. And you STILL do not answer my questions. Accordingly, I must presume that this is deliberate, and henceforth regard you as what I believe is termed a "hostile witness." It's useful to know where people are coming from. Blue at least makes his position clear, he tells us that he "defends C20th science" - which is about as funny a comment as I've ever heard. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 11:38:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA09263; Thu, 22 May 1997 11:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: 22 May 97 14:07:19 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: RE: Leaning Tower Of Pisa and Heat Pipes Message-ID: <970522180719_100433.1541_BHG49-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"uOkrT2.0.ZG2.ol8Xp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frederick, > You will notice over where they have "Big Ben" on a tower they > have lots of time, but, very little inclination. Right,Chris? Jed tells me that recent American studies have shown that British males are far more - ah - 'active' than their Yank counterparts. Of course, I can only speak for myself in such matters, but I'm getting no complaints.... Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 11:39:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA31430; Thu, 22 May 1997 11:35:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:35:06 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338491D2.1339 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:34:58 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Answer the question, Frank References: <970522180717_100433.1541_BHG49-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cgQKk.0.yg7.P79Xp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > And you STILL do not answer my questions. Accordingly, I must presume > that this is deliberate, and henceforth regard you as what > I believe is termed a "hostile witness." I didn't realize this was a trial. Nor did I realize you were the judge. Pardon my offenses, your honor (or whatever the term is in UK). But perhaps Vortex is bogged in the UK---if you would read my recent posts, you would note that I said: (i) I have not yet read the specific documents you suggested; (ii) I have read some of the ones Jed sent (once---it takes multiple readings to form useful assessments); (iii) I plan to read the stuff you suggested in concert with the Longchampt and 1993 P&F papers, and consider them in that context. (iv) I am a busy guy---I have a real job doing real science that yields real, repeatable and sought after results. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 12:36:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA21315 for billb@eskimo.com; Thu, 22 May 1997 12:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:36:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: Keasy aol.com Thu May 22 12:35:30 1997 Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA21183; Thu, 22 May 1997 12:35:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Keasy aol.com Received: (from root localhost) by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA04948; Thu, 22 May 1997 15:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Old-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970522153344_-1699752342 emout14.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, harti@bbtt.de cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: How many hours ? X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: Greg and all, At the risk (justified, I think) of being tedious, let me see if we all understand what Greg says his devices will do: Once started, both the SMOT and RMOD will run on their own indefinitely (3 hours to four days demonstrated) and continuously WITHOUT EVER ANY HUMAN ANYWHERE NEAR THEM and without any additional electrical, magnetic, or other energy input of any kind. This precludes adjustments as the devices are running to keep them aligned (or whatever reason). While I certainly hope the claim is true (that is mostly what this group is all about), we all know many thousands, if not millions, of people have tried to accomplish this over the past 100 years or so. Further, the commercial value of its natural extensions would almost certainly be in the many billions, if not trillions, of dollars. So I think a bit of healthy skepticism is warranted. Ken Keasy aol.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 12:37:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA06892; Thu, 22 May 1997 12:31:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:31:25 -0700 Message-Id: <3383FEEF.39D8E432 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:08:15 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: What the energy is really stand for? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4tb243.0.ch1.Cy9Xp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What the energy is really stand for? All physical laws are actually principles to govern our logic to try understand the nature. But sometime these principles and the concepts related to them are considered as physical facts. I think this is true with the concept of energy. Actually we are using the energy concept to globally describe the difference between states of a material systems. Usefulness of the energy concept is come from generalization ability. It is possible to attribute energy levels to any material systems without knowing their internal dynamics. This is possible because the energy is interchangeable or transferable. But we also knows that the matter is totally convertible to energy. Is it possible to combine this two different aspect of the energy concept apperantly not compatible? I think it will be useful to separate two different usage of the energy concept for analyzing them: "Transferable work" and "the constituent of the matter and of the fields". May these two different usage be unified by a deeper understanding the nature but this time I prefer to examine these concepts separately. Transferable work is a totally relative. It is called mainly potential energy and kinetic energy. Sometimes these energies are interpreted as having absolute meaning. This occurs when kinetic energies are embedded in a system, like temperature. Yes, we can talk about absolute values when elements of a system have definable energy level relative to each other. For example if the element A has a kinetic energy respect to element B and vice versa, the system comprising of elements A and B may be considered having an absolute amount of energy respect to zero energy level of the system (when the elements of the system have not energies relative to each other). It is possible to extend this definition to other forms of transferable works like the potential energy. On the other hand the energy is defined by the E=mc2. By this definition energy has an absolute quantitative meaning. Actually this equation is extracted from the formulation kinetic energy with the relativity theory. This is the original text of the Einstein’s book "RELATIVITY the Special and the General Theory", Published LONDON, METHUEN & CO LTD ISBN 0 416 67600 6. From Section XV GENERAL RESULTS OF THE THEORY: >> In accordance with the theory of relativity the kinetic energy of a material point of mass m is no longer given by the well-known expression m.v^2 / 2 but by the expression mc^2 / (1 - v^2/c^2)^(1/2) This expression approach infinity as the velocity v approaches the velocity of light c. The velocity must therefore always remain less than c, however great may be the energies used to produce the acceleration. I we develop the expression for the kinetic energy in the form of a series, we obtain mc^2 + m(v^2/2) + 3/8m(v^4/c^2) + . . . . When v^4/c^2 is small compared with unity, the third of these terms is always small in comparison with the second, which last is alone considered in classical mechanics. The first term mc^2 does not contain the velocity, and required no consideration if we are only dealing with the question as to how the energy of a point- mass depends on the velocity. We shall speak of its essential significance later. << I think there is a way to combine the absolute and the relative meaning of the energy by making a suitable model to describe the mass. And the key point is using the field concept. I think it is possible to define mass or the principle of the construction of the matter by using electrical/magnetical fields and using the method to define absolute energy concept from the second paragraph. This is even possible without introducing the electromagnetic field concept that we are familiar and we know that it is carrying energy is a absolute manner. When the all forms of energies are unified, the law of conservation of energy or the law of conservation of mass may be reduce to deterministic principle of the classical physics. (Quantum physics may stating it differently). (to be continued?) Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 12:56:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA09621; Thu, 22 May 1997 12:45:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:45:53 -0700 Date: 22 May 97 15:44:13 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Science by vote Message-ID: <970522194412_72240.1256_EHB64-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Sjm-U2.0.FM2.m9AXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Merriman's statement epitomizes something I have been trying to distill for a long time. He appears to believe that nothing is ever decided in science, no disputes resolved, and no definitive experiments performed. Even though Fleischmann uses C19 calorimetry, we can never be sure it works. We may asymptotically approach an answer, but a definitive demonstration, like the atom bomb explosion, the first transatlantic radio transmission, or the flight at Kitty Hawk, is forever beyond our grasp. Science will never again give us definite answers that we can embrace and be certain of, and believe even in defiance of all the authorities. Merriman advocates science by vote, or groupthink. The truth is whatever the majority says: All I can do is read a paper and point out the pro's and con's as I see them. The ultimate truth is reached by N people doing this, and interacting with each other and doing experiments, in the limit as N -> infinity. I undoubtedly will reach some "personal truth" (= opinion) from the review, but I expect the opinion to be of the form: "high quality, unassailable, repeatable research has been done" or "NOT ... ". What to make of this? Will we never again be able to *draw conclusions* from this "high quality, unassailable, repeatable research?" Has it become a meaningless, inconsequential minuet, or Hesse's glass bead game. What would Copernicus, Kepler, Joule or Faraday make of this? I hear them spinning in their graves! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 13:50:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA27885; Thu, 22 May 1997 13:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705222018.NAA11386 popmail.UCSD.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Bart Simon" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:20:57 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Sociology of CF Reply-to: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: <19970522154658.AAA19782 LOCALNAME> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Resent-Message-ID: <"UNv_x.0.Yp6.0gAXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings, While everyone is figuring out what to read (or not) and working out the plumbing for the Tower of Pisa :-) I thought I'd add my little bit for those who are interested. My first attempt at a paper on the CF episode is forthcoming pending final revisions in the journal "Social Studies of Science" (with more articles in the works). In the spirit of vortexism, I thought I should make it available to folks on this list for reflection, comment and criticism. The paper is currently accessible in Word 6.0/7.0 format from: http://helix.ucsd.edu/~bssimon/cfstuff.htm I would ask that you please not repost or distribute the document. If you are interested in the paper, but can't read Word files, let me know and I will gladly send you the text some other way. I've also posted a little bibliography of various analyses of the CF controversy from a non-technical perspective. Maybe I'll do like Barry and review them one of these days. Now, one thing I should stress is that this paper was written specifically with the concerns of sociologists of science in mind, which doesn't mean that Vortexans won't find it useful, in fact my hope is that CF researchers will see something interesting there despite the jargon. Indeed, I think a number of things I talk about in the paper have been touched on in discussions on this list already. I should also say that the paper leaves a ton of stuff out; it is a first stab and a sort of precursor to my doctoral thesis. But enough apologizing, here's the abstract: Bart Simon, "Undead Science: Making Sense of Cold Fusion After the (Arti)fact", Forthcoming in Social Studies of Science (eventually...) This paper considers the problem of how to account for the observation of research on cold fusion after the closure of the controversy in 1990. Despite losing the controversy, a few hundred scientists around the world continue to work on cold fusion. The issue of whether the controversy is in fact closed and cold fusion is dead, or whether it is still alive, is considered, and this dualism is rejected in favor of a hybrid category: cold fusion is undead. Researchers continue to do scientific work in 1997, but that work is configured by the experience of having lost the controversy in 1989-90. Consequently, cold fusion is alive, but it is not scientific life as we, in science studies, typically understand it. cheers, Bart Simon (bssimon helix.ucsd.edu) ============================================ Bart Simon Dept. of Sociology/Science Studies-0533 University of California at San Diego (UCSD) 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA, 92093-0533 phone: 619-534-0491/fax: 619-534-3388 =========================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 14:30:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA31238; Thu, 22 May 1997 14:19:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:19:27 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3384B857.1685 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:19:19 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Science by vote References: <970522194412_72240.1256_EHB64-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xH0qg3.0.zd7.UXBXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > What to make of this? Will we never again be able to > *draw conclusions* from this "high quality, unassailable, > repeatable research?" As much as we would all love to draw conclusions, the skill in science is not drawing conclusions prematurely or prejudicially. Its quite possible that after reading the literature discussed, I will concur with you that excess heat beyond any likely errors in calorimetry is well established. But it is also possible that I wont. But I have no instinctive fear of excess heat, in any case. It in itself could be real but have mundane if subtle causes. Linking the excess heat to a particular explanation is the more interesting part of the inquiry. As for science by vote, I'll leave it to Bart Simon to make intelligent commentary. As for myself, rest assured I'm about as far from saying scientific knowledge is subjective as anyone could ever be. But the field of "cold fusion" is certainly not in a state of being sufficiently well understood to start castigating people for measuring their words when discussing it. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 14:49:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA07194; Thu, 22 May 1997 14:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: 22 May 97 17:15:42 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Science by vote Message-ID: <970522211542_100433.1541_BHG60-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"J64vr3.0.Hm1.pWBXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, > The truth is whatever the majority says Sadly, this is what 'science' - which many of us grew up avid to learn and to understand, that search for understanding - has descended to. I believe firmly that many of those most strongly opposing CF will, *on the very day* that whoever they see as "Authority" speaks, accept whatever Authority says in its favour, just as they have accepted the reverse. Social responsibility? Individual thinking? Forget them, these are not relevant to many of the game-playing physical scientists of today Why, after all, should they bother? It's all cut and dried now, there will never again be anything new of any importance. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 14:50:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA06848; Thu, 22 May 1997 14:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:16:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:17:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Patent Examiner Duggan? Resent-Message-ID: <"hKf8f.0.sg1.yUBXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >5/21/97 > > >ES wrote: > >snip > >>>Come now, Mr. Soule'. Aren't you an attorney? You know full well >>>that Judge Penfield Jackson was the sole finder of fact for the court >>>as well as judge in this case. He may weigh any and all evidence as >>>he sees fit. He is not bound by Duggan or any special master. Also, >>>you take the special masters "overwhelming evidence" statement >>>totally out of context. You have consistantly refused to publish, on >>>this list or any other list, the exact content of the special masters >>>findings. Just more smoke and mirrors, Mr Soule'. > >Tell this list Mr. Soule, are you an attorney or not? No, I am not an attorney. Nor have I ever claimed to be. In deference to the several quality attorneys whom I personally know (two of whom are aspiring to become "Contractual Engineers"), this is a profession in which I am happy I am not engaged. > >snip > >>As to "refused to publish the exact content of the Special Master's >>findings" this is more of your either lies or misconceptions. From >>he standpoint of the evaluation of the operability of the technology, >>have published a direct quotation from the Report of the Special >>aster. If you want more, check the court records -- it's all there. > >My word, Mr. Soule', less emotion please. If Newman paid $11,000 for >the special report as you claim below and it is supportive of your >claims, I can not for the life of me understand why you just don't >publish it in it's entirety for this list and clear up all the >misconceptions that people have of you and Mr. Newman. Think of the >wonderful PR. You seemed to have fixated on this. So be it. It's your fixation. I have often in the past mailed out copies of the Report (I have a stack of stapled sets in my files) to people requesting same. There are no secrets about the "Report of the Special Master" -- and, in fact, there are additional portions of the Report that strongly condemn the actions of the Patent Office. I usually post the explicit statement of support from the Special Master since it directly applies to the question of operability. As I stated before, if you want your copy -- check the court records. [If you feel this is too strong an emotional statement for you, Dick, I am so very sorry.] > >>Joseph Newman's attorney expressed the opinion that Jackson was >>clearly biased from the beginning against Joseph Newman and Jackson >>clearly expected that his own expert would certainly dismiss Joseph >>Newman's technology as inoperable. When this didn't happen, Jackson >>was less-than-pleased. > >More legal incompetence/malpractice to express the opinion that Judge >Jackson was clearly biased from the beginning. Heh! Heh! So Judge >Penfield Jackson, a Federal Judge, sitting at a bench trial without a >jury and the sole finder of fact for the court was less than pleased >when he was notified he was biased from the beginning? Knowing this >judge's reputation, you're lucky you guys got out of there and not >thrown in jail for your arrogance and contempt of court. Actually, >Newman may have had a cause of action against his attorney, Flannery, >for legal malpractice. Dick -- your level of hostility (emotionalism?) has enabled you to misinterprete what I wrote above. Typical. Your hostility has tripped yourself up: Had you a more calm attitude without all the hostility, you might have considered that the phrase "Joseph Newman's attorney expressed the opinion..." might refer to the attorney expressing his opinion to his client, i.e., Joseph Newman --- _not_ Jackson. Of course, with an absence of hostility you might have had the insight to ask a question to that end, i.e., "to whom was such an opinion expressed?" > >snip > >>Jackson is both a liar and a hypocrite. Perhaps Jackson refined these >>"attributes" while he was an attorney for John Mitchell during the >>Watergate scandal and also an attorney for the notoriously corrupt >>finance division of the Committee to Re-elect the President (CREEP). > >Evan it's not wise to make such statements as above if you plan on >having the case retried in another district court. These judges are >all friends and attacking one is usually seen as an attack on all >collectively. Unfortunately you're falling into the same belligerant, >arrogant mode as Newman and Flannery, even before the games begin. > >BTW, how did your appeal turn out? Joseph Newman won his Appeal to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit when he filed for a Writ of Mandaemus in protest of the test conditions originally ordered by Jackson. The Higher Court reversed the majority of Jackson's test procedures which they said are "highly irregular and taint the evidentiary value of the test results." Jackson, of course, ignored the orders imposed by the higher court and eventually confiscated the machine. From that point (had there been any doubt before) it was clear to Joseph Newman, his attorney and Paul Gomory (expert legal Counsel on patent law who has provided testimony to the U.S. Senate regarding Patent matters) that the judicial procedures were "rigged." The Supreme Court refused to hear the final appeal and this is why (combined with the introduction of new evidence/developments) Joseph Newman is also pursuing actions intended to justify Mr. Jere Sere's concern that (as attorney for the Patent Office) he would "hate to have this ever develop into a trial by jury." >>Gyroscopically yours, >> >>Evan Soule' >>Director of Information > >Are you indeed Newman's spin doctor? Mr. Wall, since you persist in initiating/maintaining your infantile sarcasm I must conclude that the level of your intelligence is equivalent to that of your sarcasm. Gyroscopically yours, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "The day when we shall know exactly what electricity is, will chronicle an event probably greater than any other recorded in the human race." --- NIKOLA TESLA From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 16:04:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA16593; Thu, 22 May 1997 15:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3384C934.7C98 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:01:16 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: How many hours ? References: <97052123241107 odin> <33837C2C.6D7300FE@microtronics.com.au> <33839834.108E@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Lm31F2.0.234.DeCXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > > > 1) The SMOT (Simple Magnetic Ou Toy) achieved approx 3.5 hours. > > > > That seems extremely important. The major question is: could > you restart it? Yes, many times. > If not, that is fairly clear evidence that > it exhausted some small amount of energy stored in the system, > > Also, as a benchmark, if the magnets are not present and the ball > is released from the highest point on the track ( how high is > that?), how long will it stay in motion before coming to a full > stop. This (plus knowing the release height) lets you calculate the > rate of energy loss for the mechanical part of the system. The max height is 12mm above the lowest point. If released at the high point, the ball will roll down the exit slope (approx 75 deg) to the entry of the next ramp and stop. Look at the patent 4,215,330. Its all there, the patent shows the linked ramps but not in a circle or the use of a curved ramp (my improvements). > -- > Barry Merriman Hi Barry, I would suggest you look at the patent. My improvements are in how the mag fields are generated, how the fields are made adjustable, how to link the ramps, how to build a curved ramp and how to link curved ramp units. Other than that, a study of the patent should provide all the basic understanding of what I will present. I don't claim to have invented the mag ramp, only improved it and made it easier to build and get working. You can view the patent at : http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4215330 Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 17:02:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA23427; Thu, 22 May 1997 16:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:24:06 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: Science by vote Sender: kurtz IMAP2.ASU.EDU To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Simeon for Win32 Version 4.0.9 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: NORMAL X-Authentication: none Resent-Message-ID: <"PUb5e1.0.zj5.eNDXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 22 May 97 17:15:42 EDT Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> wrote: > Jed, > > > The truth is whatever the majority says > > Sadly, this is what 'science' - which many of us grew up avid to learn > and to understand, that search for understanding - has descended to. I > believe firmly that many of those most strongly opposing CF will, *on > the very day* that whoever they see as "Authority" speaks, accept > whatever Authority says in its favour, just as they have accepted the > reverse. > > Social responsibility? Individual thinking? Forget them, these are not > relevant to many of the game-playing physical scientists of today Why, > after all, should they bother? It's all cut and dried now, there will > never again be anything new of any importance. > > Chris > Well, that may in fact be what you believe. I believe that above is one of the larger crocks of BS I have read for a while. Broad brush negative stereotypes of the whole scientific community like the above, aside from being patently false, serve no purpose that I can see. -- Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 17:51:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA20455; Thu, 22 May 1997 17:41:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:41:09 -0700 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:35:40 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Science by vote In-Reply-To: <970522211542_100433.1541_BHG60-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"pBH19.0.P_4.ZUEXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 22 May 1997, Chris Tinsley wrote: > > Social responsibility? Individual thinking? Forget them, these are not > relevant to many of the game-playing physical scientists of today Why, > after all, should they bother? It's all cut and dried now, there will > never again be anything new of any importance. > Yeah, yeah we've heard this repeated so many times by you three. I've told you repeatedly what my experience is. Scientists would LOVE to find something new. They dream and hope it will come to them. We're judged by our peers on the quality of our innovations. I find this repeated statement with no basis other than your own experience on the fringe only demonstrates what a narrow mind set you've assumed. I couldn't believe that you called today's computer hardware "relatively unsophisticated". Ever tried to understand a circuit diagram with 9 million transistors? Computers with 4 seperate execution units, branch prediction and out-of-order execution on 1 cm square slice of silicon running at 600 MHz unsophisticated? Geeze! Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 18:09:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA01615; Thu, 22 May 1997 17:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:17:40 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: How many hours ? Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"ZtWFE3.0.7P.vBEXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg, You mention your "improvements" to 4215330 below. Hope you aren't planning to apply for a patent on all those. At the very least I would expect a severe problem in the "obviousness test" as applied to improvements over and above the information posted in public domain. See a few relevent postings below: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 8:01 AM 5/23/97, Greg Watson wrote: [snip] > >Hi Barry, > >I would suggest you look at the patent. My improvements are in how the >mag fields are generated, how the fields are made adjustable, how to >link the ramps, how to build a curved ramp and how to link curved ramp >units. > >Other than that, a study of the patent should provide all the basic >understanding of what I will present. > >I don't claim to have invented the mag ramp, only improved it and made >it easier to build and get working. > >You can view the patent at : > > http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4215330 > > >Regards, > Greg - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:25:10 -0800 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: At 10:48 AM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: >Hi All, >Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps or >curved return tracks to close the loop. >I have tried various schemes without success. >What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be >able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between the >magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side ways >attractions very quickly. >Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail. The ball must stay on the >"Neutral Line". >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg >Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax If you have a couple of the black boxes maybe you could try them in series. If there is any o-u performance, enough boxes in series might eventually give enough energy for a return trip. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Resent-Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:51:00 -0800 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com At 4:01 PM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >>At 10:48 AM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: >>>Hi All, >>>Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps >>>or curved return tracks to close the loop. >>>I have tried various schemes without success. >>>What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be >>>able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between >>>the magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side >>>ways attractions very quickly. >>>Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail. The ball must stay on the >>>"Neutral Line". >>If you have a couple of the black boxes maybe you could try them in >>series. If there is any o-u performance, enough boxes in series might >>eventually give enough energy for a return trip. >>Regards, >>Horace Heffner >Hi Horace, >Isn't a good engineering solution as the "Tuning" of the exit is sensitive >to the ball speed (too much and it leaved the exit track and is attracted >to one of the side magnets). Use the speed to gain potential energy. You could even put the box on an upwar incline if necessary to avoid excessive speed. The the ball will not leave the track. >While the ramps are simple to build and seem to indicate OU, I feel they >are NOT the way to close the loop. My testing seems to indicate that out >of a vertical lift and drop of 20mm, I can recover around 2-3mm worth of >energy on exit. For a 12mm steel ball, that's not a lot of energy to play >with. That's plenty. Ten boxes and you have a rise of 2-3 cm. that's plenty of elevation to roll around a corner - plus an initial 10 m of track to get away from the box. >They can, however, teach us about what is going on and why. >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg >Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax Regards, Horace Heffner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 04:41:04 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 03:46:26 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com At 4:17 PM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >> If you had one working you could easily rent a business space and charge >> $10 admission just to see the world's first successful perpetual motion >> machine. That should cover your patenting, development, and marketing costs >> till you really got going. >> >> Regards, >> >> Horace Heffner > >Hi Horace, > >And to think I thought you were the straight man. Silly me. I am serious. This is certainly what I would do if I was out to commercialize what you have, provided the miracle of closing the loop can be accomplished. I believe in starting small and growing when it is possible. I would certainly take that approach before going after investor money. This is not a big energy thing at this point, even if you close the loop. It would only be a demonstrator, but a very animated one. However, that has value. I think you should be be able to draw 100 people a day per 1,000,000 population for some time. You could franchise or expand to the major cities around the world. New York alone should be worth $10,000/day gross for some time. > >At least now I know that you only believe in "OU according to Horace". I believe in replicated data demonstrating success. OU is not a religion, and may not be a fact. However, since I spend all available money and most of my time when not busy in my full time job serving a family of four as cook, butler, shopper, chauffeur, handyman, mechanic, and errand boy, I suppose you could say I have a considerable amount of faith in the prospect of finding an improved energy source. I have given freely of many ideas in a public domain pulic forum. That makes me feel like maybe, just maybe, as a part of a synergistic whole, I am giving something significant to society. > >Join the discussion group, spectics keep us ALL honest. Just curious, is the intellectual property generated by the group property of the group, or is it public domain? > > >-- >Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au >Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax Regards, Horace Heffner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:54:38 -0700 Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 07:23:49 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Device Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Horace Heffner wrote: > > >Join the discussion group, spectics keep us ALL honest. > > Just curious, is the intellectual property generated by the group property > of the group, or is it public domain? Hadn't thought of that. Its not mine. I guess its there to be used by all. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 18:23:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA00638; Thu, 22 May 1997 18:15:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:15:11 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3384EF8D.33AE math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:14:53 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Science by vote References: <970522211542_100433.1541_BHG60-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q0jRO.0.s9.T-EXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > Jed, > > > The truth is whatever the majority says > > Sadly, this is what 'science - has descended to. > Social responsibility? Individual thinking? Forget them... Thank you for the lecture on the status of modern science. I didn't realize you were a colleague of Bart Simons. Of course, I'm sure your opinion expressed above---what science is now, and that it is different from what it was then---can be documented by convincing statistics, right? If you are going to lecture us on the decline of science, why don't you demonstrate there is some science to your opinions? -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 18:28:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA03197; Thu, 22 May 1997 18:25:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:25:32 -0700 Message-Id: <3384E739.BC8CB42 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 04:39:21 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: How many hours ? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_6uZp2.0.tn.B8FXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > I am serious. This is certainly what I would do if I was out to > commercialize what you have, provided the miracle of closing the loop can > be accomplished. I believe in starting small and growing when it is > possible. I would certainly take that approach before going after investor > money. This is not a big energy thing at this point, even if you close the > loop. It would only be a demonstrator, but a very animated one. However, > that has value. I think you should be be able to draw 100 people a day per > 1,000,000 population for some time. You could franchise or expand to the > major cities around the world. New York alone should be worth $10,000/day > gross for some time. > Why dont you realize the situation when the effect responsible for the ball runnig may be increased thousands or milion times after understanding the principle and applying this to new engine. I think this is very probable and be realized in a short time, specially when comparing the technology needed to build the toy engine and the edge technology that we have. Am I wrong? My recomendation is to prepare to build a small or moderate group for making R&D and for the next step meet with the industry. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 18:34:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA09207; Thu, 22 May 1997 18:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Science by vote To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:11:42 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <970522211542_100433.1541_BHG60-1 CompuServe.COM> from "Chris Tinsley" at May 22, 97 05:15:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mYviY1.0.lF2.VyEXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris wrote: > Jed wrote: > > The truth is whatever the majority says > > Sadly, this is what 'science' - which many of us grew up avid to learn > and to understand, that search for understanding - has descended to. Actually truth, if it has any useful meaning, is defined by reality. Humans can only attempt to observe and interpret reality -- though we think we do a pretty good job -- but that in itself is a non-falsifiable thesis. And humans, despite claims to the contrary, are individual beings when it comes to making up their own minds. There really isn't any group conciousness (well, no one has demonstrated such a thing) beyond ideas we exchange (and interpret and reject or accept each in our own way.) So it is pretty hard to say what science is, since the "atomic" nature of the human mind precludes a universal answer (to anything.) It seems to generally be a process by which we attempt to sort the observed nature of reality from the never observed. We get tricked by a lot of mirages and illusions along the way. Few of us are ever always right, no matter what camp we're in. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 21:06:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA29838; Thu, 22 May 1997 20:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3384F64A.EB3EAF50 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 05:43:38 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: RUMBLE AT THE PATENT OFFICE X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jnZMw1.0.1I7.Z0HXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Businessweek 22 May 1997 http://www.businessweek.com/contents.htm Science & Technology RUMBLE AT THE PATENT OFFICE TABLE: The Pending Patent Fracas http://www.businessweek.com/1997/22/b3529141.htm http://www.businessweek.com/1997/22/b3529142.htm Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 21:46:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA05909; Thu, 22 May 1997 21:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 21:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:13:07 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Signing off Resent-Message-ID: <"zxZzZ.0.ES1.OeHXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts Vorts, I'm signing off for while in order to get some work done. I'd appreciate it if someone would let me know when the CETI replication data comes in, or a confirmation of something ou. Thanks. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 21:50:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA06977; Thu, 22 May 1997 21:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 21:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33851A3E.246 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 04:17:02 +0000 From: Craig Haynie Reply-To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com.erp X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: How many hours ? References: <97052123241107 odin> <33837C2C.6D7300FE@microtronics.com.au> <33839834.108E@math.ucla.edu> <3384C934.7C98@microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yV9t-.0.wi1.UlHXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > The max height is 12mm above the lowest point. > > If released at the high point, the ball will roll down the exit slope > (approx 75 deg) to the entry of the next ramp and stop. Why does it stop? The patent indicates that it will continue up the next ramp. From what I understand, you must have solved this problem. How did you do it? Thanks, Craig Haynie ccHaynie ix.netcom.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 22:46:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA16366; Thu, 22 May 1997 22:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:05:19 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" Message-ID: <338533a7.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: "vortex" Cc: "Peter Glueck" Subject: Sociology of CF Resent-Message-ID: <"AFHU01.0.d_3.XfIXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vortexers, Simon Bart's paper is the best ever written on the subject of sociology of CF, it is an intellectual enchantment to read it. The "undead" quasi-metaphor is very catchy and presents all the necessary properties of a good metaphor: is expressive, exegetic, explanatory and exploratory. I just want to add that in an alternative formulation, the main epistemological problem of CF is a "loss of identity" or a "fuzzyness of identity" a lack of definition. Today's live CF is not the purely nuclear cold fusion rejected by the mainstream science in '89; it's not more a phenomenon but a rather large set of phenomena with different degrees of nuclearity, from zero to almost 100%. The unique common factor is that the reactions are very local, take place in active sites and this differentiates them from the spatial ones e.g magnetic devices. I am using the term "evolutive energies" in place of CF, and this comprises e.g. the catalytic system of BLP (great achievements!) and the cavitational systems. Peter -- dr. Peter Gluck Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700 Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 23:26:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA23432; Thu, 22 May 1997 23:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:09:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Heat Pipes Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:08:05 +0000 Message-ID: <19970522200803.AAA29802 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"wQ1tn1.0.2k5.MIJXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:34 PM 5/22/97 +0000, John Steck wrote: >If I am understanding the technology correctly, heat can be wicked in a single >direction. Wick it out of an insulated enclosure and convection or >evaporatively cool it away outside the enclosure. Basically use the outside >environment as your heat sink. I don't see it replacing a compressor >completely in most cases, but could help contribute to it running a lot less >often. > > I see what you are getting at, John. However, the wick is just a way to exploit capillary action to pump the condensate back to the evaporator-boiler zone of the heat pipe. The units used for cooling the lap top computers do exactly as you say, ie., dump the heat from the components into the lower temperature atmosphere-heat sink. The wick is necessary for use in the zero gravity of space or for use where the heat zone is "up" so that the capillary action can pump against gravity and under vapor velocity conditions that would tend to drag against the liquid flow. About anything that will act as a wick, paper, fiberglass cloth. porous metals or ceramics, layers of wire mesh and so on will act as a good wick if the working fluid "wets" it. Potassium metal likes packed nickel "wirecloth" (about 100 mesh). Fine grooves or threads on the inside of pipes also do well as wicks. Another feature of the heat pipe is that the condensable vapor will "sweep" and push non-condensable gases toward the cold end and actually compress them just like a pressure cooker or the low presure steam heating systems. You can have a mixture of vapor and non condensables and use this to separate them. This was exploited for the space probes by using the non-condensables to maintain a constant power level over the thermal load zone. One of my patents used the helium coming from the decay of the radioisotope to maintain a constant power level as the isotope decayed. Hot water and aluminum heat pipes don't mix. The aluminum reduces the water and builds up hydrogen in the cold end. On the other hand I used sub-critical hot water and a potassium carbonate catalyst to decompose biomass in a high pressure (1200 Psi)reactor vessel and by having a water-cooled zone on the end of a pipe sticking out of the vessel, I was able to bleed off the non-condensible, but combustible, mix of methane, light hydrocarbons, hydrogen and carbon monoxide and dioxide merely by opening a needle valve until steam started to come out. :-) Regards, Frederick >-- >John E. Steck >Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 22 23:31:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA23584; Thu, 22 May 1997 23:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:10:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: RE: Leaning Tower Of Pisa and Heat Pipes Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:20:41 +0000 Message-ID: <19970522202039.AAA5117 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"bDFeL1.0.Dm5.gIJXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:07 PM 5/22/97 +0000, Chris wrote: >Frederick, > > > You will notice over where they have "Big Ben" on a tower they > > have lots of time, but, very little inclination. Right,Chris? > >Jed tells me that recent American studies have shown that British males are far >more - ah - 'active' than their Yank counterparts. Of course, I can only speak >for myself in such matters, but I'm getting no complaints.... > >Chris > You don't suppose that "Yank" has something to do with it, do you? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 00:52:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA05810; Fri, 23 May 1997 00:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33854842.A55 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:03:22 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: How many hours ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mB_nX.0.bQ1.GZKXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > Greg, > > You mention your "improvements" to 4215330 below. Hope you aren't planning > to apply for a patent on all those. At the very least I would expect a > severe problem in the "obviousness test" as applied to improvements over > and above the information posted in public domain. See a few relevent > postings below: Hi Horace, My RMOD (Rotary Magnetic Ou Device), which I am patenting, is VERY different to the patent. I based the SMOT (Simple Magnetic Ou Toy) on the patent as it is public domain. Best regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 01:00:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA17640; Fri, 23 May 1997 00:58:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:58:02 -0700 Message-ID: <33854DB6.233D microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:26:38 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy References: <970521124958_100060.173_JHB94-3 CompuServe.COM> <33833252.5A5B@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4xkHv1.0.WJ4.9uKXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Craig Haynie wrote: > > Greg: > > Is your ball-on-ramps device still running? No, but it will start whenever I can put up with the noise. > If so, what is the total distance of the circular track, and how many > revolutions per minute do you get of the ball moving around the track? It is approx 500mm in dia, uses 8 curved ramps and it takes about 12 seconds for a circuit. The unit I will show you how to build will be quite a bit more compact. The ramps will cost about $5 Aust ($3.50) US each. > I've taken a look at the patent, 4,215,330, and it still baffles me. I > can seen how an ever increasing magnetic field could induce a ball to > roll up a hill, but I don't see how the ball could get free of the > strong magnetic attraction at the top of the hill. I suppose the > magnetic field at the top of the ramp is not strong enough to suspend > the ball in mid-air when it reaches the hole, through which it is > supposed to fall, but if it isn't this strong, then how does it pull the > ball up the ramp? The magnetic field contours are very different in the ramp and under the ramp as the ball falls. It does work and my units are VERY easy to build and adjust compared to the patent. 6 others have duplicated the ramp, that I know of. > Hasta, > > Craig Haynie > ccHaynie ix.netcom.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 01:24:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA10031; Fri, 23 May 1997 01:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33854FD1.25EE microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:35:37 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion References: <970521204629_-664570232 emout02.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"g52sA1.0.ZS2.S1LXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Puthoff aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/21/97 8:33:04 PM, the following question was asked: > > < pulls something toward it, it does work, but where is the conservation > of energy?>> > > Magnetic field energy is decreased as object moves into and quenches part of > the field distribution; Quenches part of the field? I don't understand this Hal. If the object is a soft ferromagnetic material, the field energy increases due to the additive action of the soft aligning domains in the ferrite. > shows up as kinetic energy of the object moving > toward the magnet. > > Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 01:28:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA21433; Fri, 23 May 1997 01:26:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:26:40 -0700 Message-ID: <33855415.6E45 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:53:49 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: How many hours ? References: <970522153344_-1699752342 emout14.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NmAYB1.0.pE5._ILXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keasy aol.com wrote: > > Greg and all, > At the risk (justified, I think) of being tedious, let me see if we all > understand what Greg says his devices will do: > Once started, both the SMOT and RMOD will run on their own indefinitely > (3 hours to four days demonstrated) and continuously WITHOUT EVER ANY HUMAN > ANYWHERE NEAR THEM and without any additional electrical, magnetic, or other > energy input of any kind. This precludes adjustments as the devices are > running to keep them aligned (or whatever reason). Correct. > While I certainly hope the claim is true (that is mostly what this group > is all about), we all know many thousands, if not millions, of people have > tried to accomplish this over the past 100 years or so. Further, the > commercial value of its natural extensions would almost certainly be in the > many billions, if not trillions, of dollars. So I think a bit of healthy > skepticism is warranted. > Ken Keasy aol.com Hi Ken, I really believe others have achieved what I have. Anyway, by mid week the plans will be out for the Phase 1 device. Build one (cost about $4 us) and experiment. In Phase 2 we will link 3 to 4 devices together. Best regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 01:43:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA11688; Fri, 23 May 1997 01:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3385533C.4CEF microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:50:12 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------655243CD426D" Resent-Message-ID: <"pyhN41.0.Vs2.tJLXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------655243CD426D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Logajan wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > 1) The Simple OU Toy is not my rotary device. Same leg action, > > different dog. > > 2) It is a closed loop version of the patent 4,215,330, with > > improvements. > > A word of warning to replicators of the Hartman 4,215,330 patent: > > A single pass through the device might not verify the operation > of a closed loop version. The Hartman device might contain somewhat > of an illusion. > > Namely, though the gradual slope up and the steep slope down > guarantee that the ball returns to the same gravitational > potential (assuming the thing actually works) there is no > obvious guarantee that the ball also returns to the same > magnetic potential. > > Clearly the magnetic field is strongest above the "knee" in order > to pull the ball up to the knee point. The steep slope down > puts the ball at a point closer to the strongest magnetic field > than the starting point down the more distant shallow slope. > > It is very important to actually demonstrate that the ball can > return to the exact same starting point (close the loop.) > Otherwise the ball might actually have "fallen" to a lower > potential energy position that prohibits further motion, > ala conservation of energy rules. > > -- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - HI John, There are actually three possibilities with the ramp as per the attached drawing. Any of the three can be achieved depending on how the field contour under the magnets is massaged. The linked ramps as shown in the patent work. Others as well as I have verified this. I should be ready with the first Phase 1 plans by mid week. Build a unit (cost about $4 us) and then scratch your head. 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From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy References: <970521124958_100060.173_JHB94-3 CompuServe.COM> <33833252.5A5B ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FAalg1.0.2-4.X1NXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Greg - > > > No, but it will start whenever > > I can put up with the noise. > > Noise costs power. Do you polish the rails? > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI Hi Rick, With graphite! Best regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 06:31:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA24878; Fri, 23 May 1997 06:24:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 06:24:45 -0700 Message-ID: <33858277.1097 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 21:11:43 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Callender CC: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: RMODs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wgxzK1.0.U46.RgPXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Paul Callender wrote: > > Hi Greg, > I have recently been working on ideas for a RMOD and have figured out a > setup that I think may work. I am trying to get the resources together to > try it out, I can't find anything down here in NZ. I just wanted to know if > I am working on the same lines as yourself, so if I may ask two questions > (you don't have to answer) it would tell me if I should pursue or if I am > just covering the same path you are currently working on. > > 1. Does your RMOD require gravity to function? It uses a restortative force in addition to magnetic forces. The SMOT device uses gravity as a restortative force. The effect seems to need two forces to function. > 2. If you use a gradiated magnetic field, is it linear or is the graph of > the strength of magnets vs. distance like a curve or even "S" shaped? Like the SMOT device, the magnetic field contours are distorted to that required. > Again, you don't have to answer, I respect that you have put a lot of time > into magnetic OU and would most likely wish to have some returns for the > time you put in. I don't mind cause I'll just keep experimenting till I get > something that works well, but it would help me if I know if we are, or are > not on the same paths. > > Thanks, > ................... > > Paul Callender Hi Paul, I can give you some clues. There seems to be four effects you must control to achieve success. 1) Distorted magnetic field contours which are different on entry and exit. 2) Linear restortative force which is equal but differential over input to exit. 3) A soft ferromagnetic material to act as a vector summing device for the forces. 4) A time and distance varying permeability in the soft ferrite. Blend them all together and drive a Phd nuts. Hope this helps. Never be afraid to ask. You never really know what the answer will be. Best regards, Greg. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 06:55:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA27412; Fri, 23 May 1997 06:36:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 06:36:46 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:35:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970523093503_270611730 emout16.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com cc: kennel nhelab.iae.or.jp Subject: Arata & NHE Lab? Resent-Message-ID: <"mHBVN2.0.Ei6.jrPXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Elliot, What contact has the New Hydrogen Energy Lab had with Arata & Zhang? Has the lab tried to test or replicate their CF cell? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 07:04:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA08872; Fri, 23 May 1997 06:24:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 06:24:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Ion Exchange in Manures Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:22:16 +0000 Message-ID: <19970523132214.AAA8143 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"9wy4U2.0.YA2.jfPXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: Since feedlot, hog, poultry, and dairy manures are at the end of the food chain and represent a great way to use the "infinite energy" of the Sun, as well as arriving by way of a "vortex" :-), I wish to get some thoughts on pre-treatment of these with a sulphuric acid rinse with the intent of lowering the ash content so that they can be burned in an internal combustion engine. As posted earlier, the heat from the engine exhaust can be used to heat a water-biomass slurry to a few hundred degrees F and a pressure of a few atmospheres and this can be expanded through an orifice-throttle into the air intake of the engines, where it can be drawn as a fine dust-aerosol into the cylinders for combustion either by compression ignition or spark ignition (with a "pilot" fuel). Sulphuric acid is "cheaper than dirt" from coal-fired power plants and is safely trucked in anhydrous form in enormous quantities. When manures are treated with dilute sulphuric acid it seems that the cations such as NH4+, Na+, K+, Ca++, Fe++, etc., which make up the bulk of the ash in the manures get tied up with the sulphate ion, SO4--. In effect it seems that there is an ion exchange process occurring with the ligno-cellulisic materials of the manures. These water-soluble salts can then easily be rinsed from the manures as the sulphate and concentrated for recycling. Any willing experimentalists out there who wish to pursue this? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 10:41:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA22721; Fri, 23 May 1997 10:33:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:33:15 -0700 Date: 23 May 97 13:31:45 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Science by vote Message-ID: <970523173145_100433.1541_BHG112-3 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"WEvJw2.0.xY5.QJTXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John, > And humans, despite claims to the contrary, are individual beings > when it comes to making up their own minds. Within the framework of their profession, I doubt that. There is probably a difference between their private feelings and their public stance, though. In bio-science, where things are much more open, a recent example of 'herd mentality' is the matter of apoptosis. This was studied more than 20 years ago, and the researcher felt strongly that this phenomenon gave a new approach to cancer studies. But he wasn't a pushy fellow and, apart from occasional rumblings, he didn't make a big fuss. But recently quite a few cancer researchers were saying on a BBC Horizon science programme that by setting aside this approach they had been mostly in a blind alley for twenty years - because the direction of research is determined by a very few individuals at the top of any branch of science. I suppose the funding system is partly to blame here. All I'm really saying is that scientists are the same as 'ordinary folks' - the problem being that many of them think they are a better breed altogether. Working out just why that is would be an interesting study for Bart. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 10:42:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA22684; Fri, 23 May 1997 10:33:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:33:11 -0700 Date: 23 May 97 13:31:41 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Science by vote Message-ID: <970523173141_100433.1541_BHG112-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"hGvjf1.0.DY5.LJTXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: #Martin, > Scientists would LOVE to find something new. Well, they have a new and unexplained and replicated phenomenon in the excess heat of "CF". So, if you are right, why do they deride and ignore it? > I couldn't believe that you called today's computer hardware > "relatively unsophisticated". Ever tried to understand a circuit > diagram with 9 million transistors? Computers with 4 seperate > execution units, branch prediction and out-of-order execution on 1 > cm square slice of silicon running at 600 MHz unsophisticated? That's technology, not architecture. Pipelining, branch prediction, out-of-order execution are late 50s architecture. The technology is fantastic, the architecture isn't. The modern Pentium lacks some of the basic functions of 1960s machines. That of course is partly because its design is still basically that of the 8080 - and, I think, the 4040. The beautiful cygnet grew up into an ugly duck. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 10:42:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA22675; Fri, 23 May 1997 10:33:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:33:10 -0700 Date: 23 May 97 13:31:38 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Science by vote Message-ID: <970523173137_100433.1541_BHG112-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"8TUKM1.0.6Y5.LJTXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Lynn, > Well, that may in fact be what you believe. I believe that above > is one of the larger crocks of BS I have read for a while. Broad > brush negative stereotypes of the whole scientific community like > the above, aside from being patently false, serve no purpose that > I can see. An exaggeration for effect, of course. But it *is* true in essence, at least of the kind of physical scientists who frequent such places as sci.physics.fusion, or the SCIMATH forum on Compuserve. It is also not an unreasonable description of the science community as a whole to the repeatedly-replicated phenomenon of excess energy in "CF" experiments. Otherwise, why have the usual rules of science been abandoned in this case? That is the question that anyone who denies my remarks must asnswer. It's a painful experience for anyone who has been educated in the physical sciences, and who has followed science with enthusiasm from the sideline for several decades, to find out the way things really work inside that profession. I do not enjoy or revel in my apostasy, believe me. I also dislike seeing lying and character assassination within any intellectual profession. I dislike seeing people like Frank Close (who, as Head of Theoretical Physics at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, should behave better) putting in writing to his correspondents (as fact) that F&P's work at IMRA was on designing better car batteries and had nothing to do with CF. I dislike being told on SCIMATH that Fleischmann has now renounced his CF work. At least there is one thing. It wasn't scientists who proposed the deliciously goofy idea proposed recently by one European Commissioner. She says that Barbie and Action Man should be abandoned in favour of a new Euro-toy, one designed to help children understand the advantages of European Monetary Union (EMU). She says that there are many who are like ostriches with their heads in the sand, afraid of EMU. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 14:04:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA08119; Fri, 23 May 1997 13:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:28:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199705232028.QAA24241 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <970523173141_100433.1541_BHG112-2 CompuServe.COM> (message from Chris Tinsley on 23 May 97 13:31:41 EDT) Subject: Modern Computers (was Re: Science by vote) Resent-Message-ID: <"QSb_j1.0.n-1.-uVXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris said: > That's technology, not architecture. Pipelining, branch > prediction, out-of-order execution are late 50s architecture. The > technology is fantastic, the architecture isn't. The modern > Pentium lacks some of the basic functions of 1960s machines. That > of course is partly because its design is still basically that of > the 8080 - and, I think, the 4040. > The beautiful cygnet grew up into an ugly duck. Then choose a computer that doesn't quack. PPC chips are a lot cleaner design then Pentium and company, but if you want innovative, you will have to leave Microsoft completely behind. For example the SHARC chips look to be the spiritual heirs to the Transputer architecture. And yes, Microsoft is the problem. The other day my wife had a problem with Wordsworth, a MS Word work-alike. She compalined that she couldn't open a file. I found out that she had been opening a new copy of the application for each new file instead of choosing open from the menu. I closed four copies of the application, and showed her how to open a file without re-invoking the program. My point? My wife was working on a 2 Meg machine without virtual memory. Try that with typical MS bloatware. One of my favorite facts about the Amiga is that Commodore did pay Microsoft way back when to port one product to the Amiga: Microsoft BASIC, shipped with OS 1.1 through 1.3 as AmigaBASIC. It violated so many of the published programming rules for the Amiga, that no one used it for major projects--ABasic may have been a much more difficult product to use, but at least it did the same thing every time. With AmigaDOS 2.0 AmigaBASIC disappeared, except that the patch to make it "32-bit clean" is still floating around somewhere. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 14:42:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA10640; Fri, 23 May 1997 14:38:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:38:11 -0700 Message-ID: <33860DD4.37A3 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 07:06:20 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy References: <970521124958_100060.173_JHB94-3 CompuServe.COM> <33833252.5A5B ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gvJHu3.0._b2.1vWXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Greg - > > > With graphite! > > That's lubrication. I mean *polish* the rails. Very fine abrasives in > stages arriving at a mirror flat edge surface where the surface of the ball > rides. There should be no rumbling or other rough sound as the balls travel > on the raceways. If those rails have their edges flattened nicely, there > should be almost no significant sound from it at all except where there's > impact from a falling ball off the end of a ramp, and it shouldn't even > need lube. Not necessary I suppose with the SMOT if it works; working at > all is the thing. I run the side of a pencil over the side of the Alum "U" channel. Seems to remove most small bumps and dents. The graphite stays on the rails and provides dry lubrication. You are right, noise is wasted energy. My first stage SMOT is fairly quiet. > But wouldn't it be fun or useful to eliminate as much friction as possible > to see what the system will do - like accelerate a bit over the first few > revolutions? The initial SMOT devices are NOT rotary. That will happen later as you learn the characteristics of mag ramps. One small step at a time. > Does your RMOD accelerate a bit from a minimal initial starting push? My current RMOD plexi-glass unit is under continual torque. It self starts. The SMOT device does accelerate as it starts to climd the ramp. It will self start as well. > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI Hi Rick, The plans for the Phase 1 device will be out by mid week, maybe sooner. I have e-mailed the original drawings to Jean-Louis. Build a ramp and gives us some feedback on reducing friction. I have found that friction is a MAJOR source of energy loss and the biggest cause of unreliable / unstable operation. I have responded to both mail groups in this corro. That will be my standard reply unless you request your corro to be kept private. I am doing this to ensure we all get the benefit of all of our input and ideas. Best regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 14:51:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA18969; Fri, 23 May 1997 14:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: 23 May 97 17:29:03 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Modern Computers (was Re: Science by vot Message-ID: <970523212903_100433.1541_BHG93-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"BT02t1.0.Je4.AqWXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert, > Then choose a computer that doesn't quack. PPC chips are a lot > cleaner design then Pentium and company, but if you want > innovative, you will have to leave Microsoft completely behind. > For example the SHARC chips look to be the spiritual heirs to the > Transputer architecture. I'm getting a bit out of touch, but to some extent I'm looking at trends over decades. For example, my 'first love' computer did seem to me to outshine its successors - but that must be a commonplace human attitude. But would I let my triode "CF" cell be monitored by a Windoze-based system? Would anyone rely on that kludge-bucket to stay upright for any length of time? Much as I despised the next generation (c. 1969) I was able to make one drive twelve interactive test stations in real time, each with its own VDU and capable of testing circuit boards with (in some cases) some hundreds of TTL chips on each. It wasn't easy, we only had the use of four 6Mb 'washtub' diskdrives, and the machine had - wait for it - 256kb of RAM! Of course, to make the thing capable of doing this vital production work, I had to get rid of the operating system (which was something like that on an IBM 360) ... and write a proper one. Hey, it's good to be getting older and crabbier by the day. Much more fun to criticise, jab the gnarled digit and curl the wrinkled lip, than to have to be out there sliding down the razorblade of life (As Tom Lehrer put it). Chris "There's Sb, As, Al, Se, And H and O and N and Re, And Ni, Nd, Np, Ge, And Fe, Am, Ru, U..." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 15:59:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA29774; Fri, 23 May 1997 15:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <33861B63.4F76 math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:34:11 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Science by vote References: <970523173145_100433.1541_BHG112-3 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"b1aZi1.0.7H7.zkXXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > All I'm really saying is that scientists are the same as 'ordinary > folks' - the problem being that many of them think they are a better > breed altogether. Hmmm...I have not really observed this. Speaking for myself, I do think I'm a better *scientist* than ordinary folks. It would be rather silly for me to think that I'm better--whatever that means---than ordinary folks, becuase my entire family consists of ordinary folks. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 16:01:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA29734; Fri, 23 May 1997 15:53:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:53:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199705232252.PAA28495 popmail.UCSD.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Bart Simon" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:31:25 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Science by vote Reply-to: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: <970523173145_100433.1541_BHG112-3 CompuServe.COM> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Resent-Message-ID: <"6jfEF3.0.OG7.B_XXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hmm, it must be sociology week on Vortex :-) >From Barry, > As for science by vote, I'll leave it to Bart Simon to make > intelligent commentary. As for myself, rest assured I'm about > as far from saying scientific knowledge is subjective as anyone > could ever be. Er, commentary - ok. Maybe a wee rant jus' for fun. Let's assume for the sake of argument that everyone acts with the best of intentions and no one is out "get" anyone else. How can we explain why some researchers believe CF is real while others believe the opposite? One way is to say that some researchers are "pathological" (be they believers or skeptics, they know not what they do) but this really doesn't get us very far. Another way is to say that some researchers do better experiments than others, but the problem is that both sides believe that their respective experiments are the better ones. In this sense, Barry can do nothing more with his reviews then add his voice to the crowd, it is an politically unequal voice perhaps because Barry speaks as a physicist from UCLA with a Ph.D. while Frank Z. does not (which is why Chris may be so concerned about Barry's paper choices and motives). But, Jed argues (rightly, I think) that there is more to this because some experiments (particularly robust demonstrations) speak louder than words whether they are backed by Ph.Ds or not - actually i'm pretty sure Barry agrees, but his criteria for "robustness" differs from Jed's...we are back to square one (as long as Jed and Barry don't pathologize one another, in which case the discussion ends, and he who holds the most power, whatever that means, wins). But, I disagree with Jed that demonstrations are self-explanatory. Some of the most self-evident of truths were historically open to interpretation. I defer judgement on the Wright's, but folks like Faraday (also Robert Boyle, even Newton) had a hell of a time making demonstrations which would work everytime in the ways they wanted it to as well as making on-lookers see their demonstrations in the "correct" way (a much discussed case in my field is the debate between Thomas Hobbes and Robert Boyle over the demonstration of the air-pump and the existence of a vacuum). Because of this I want to argue that in order to make a convincing demonstration one also has to make a convincable audience and doing this is very much a social activity (though this does not mean it is a subjective activity, but thats a long story). Everyone here knows for instance that demonstrations at an APS meeting are more convincing than demonstrations in your garage (assuming you could get a foot in the door). This has nothing to do with the demonstration per se, but with the construction of the audience and a context for the interpretation of what is happening - I am hypothesizing, for instance, that the audience makes different presumptions and asks different questions depending on the location of the demonstration (I have yet to find a good way to study this though). I guess all I'll say is that the subjective people/objective reality dichotomy is a red herring. The answer to the question of why scientists ignore or disbelieve others' experiments can not be answered simply with an "end of science" thesis (even for the sake of rhetorical flourish), researchers judgements are too contingent for that, and conspiracy theories are notoriously hard to sustain. On the other hand, the degree of stubborn resistance to even acknowledge CF work still blows me away (damn, Chris, I'd like to see where Frank Close says FP were working on batteries!). Er, 'nuff said... i'm filling up too much bandwidth as it is. cheers, Bart (bssimon helix.ucsd.edu) ============================================ Bart Simon Dept. of Sociology/Science Studies-0533 University of California at San Diego (UCSD) 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA, 92093-0533 phone: 619-534-0491/fax: 619-534-3388 =========================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 16:24:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA02343; Fri, 23 May 1997 16:21:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:21:30 -0700 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:21:21 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705232321.SAA11886 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: new calorimeter at EarthTech Resent-Message-ID: <"xmz921.0.Wa.vPYXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In connection with our Ragland triode effort we have just finished commissioning a new water-flow calorimeter here at EarthTech. This system is designed to measure the the power and energy balance of CF cells. The heart of the system is a tight coil of 1/8" OD Cu tubing which forms a cup that fits closely and almost completely surrounds the cell being tested. This affair is mounted on a highly insulating styrofoam pedestal/base and arranged so that a very deep cylindrical Dewar can be inverted and dropped down over it to insulate the entire thing very thoroughly from room air. The inlet and outlet temperature measuring stations, which employ precision BetaTHERM thermistors, are thoroughly buried in the thick styrofoam base so they, too, are insulated from room air...and from each other. A peristaltic pump provides a very constant 0.85 ml/sec flow rate of water thru the system. Just upstream of the inlet temperature sensing station is a Peltier cooler which is duty-cycle controlled by the system computer to maintain the inlet water temperature constant. A simple PID algorithm maintains the inlet water temperature within 0.03 C of the setpoint (typically 20C). Data acquisiton and control is accomplished with a KM DAS1600 in a 166 MHz Cyrix 686 PC clone running a custom program written in TestPoint, a nice little object-oriented data acquisition package from Capital Equipment Corp. By the way, the whole thing runs under the benevolent ministry (uncontrollable snicker) of Windows 95. Code development time was about evenly split between actually writing the program and recovering from mysterious crashes. Now, however, it runs like a clock. The system measures, displays, and records the instantaneous power balance and also integrates both powers to provide the cumulative energy balance. As with other water flow calorimeters we have built, this one also did not require calibration per se. Using the measured mass flow rate of the water, the measured delta-T from "factory calibrated" thermistors, and the book value for the specific heat of water, we achieved an average Pout/Pin ratio of 0.99 on the first overnight run. This was with about 6 watts of power going into a dummy cell made with resistors immersed in oil instead of electrodes and electrolyte. The effective thermal resistance of the cooling water flow works out to 0.28 degrees/watt. This should allow us to run up to 20-30 watts without encountering troublesome delta-T's. In a couple of days, I'll put some pictures of it on our web page. I'll let you know when they're up. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 16:54:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA09063; Fri, 23 May 1997 16:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3386C3BF.7DEE39CB verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:32:31 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Science by vote X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------BABA1E86D4F98660DAB5B90A" Resent-Message-ID: <"ohMCk1.0.XD2.9dYXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BABA1E86D4F98660DAB5B90A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, This is a typical example for scientists would LOVE to find something new or not. The person who I am wrote the letter is on top an thermoelectric research group / organization. No one of three scientist who I wrote letters separately for this subject did not responded. This is typical response that I get many times when I try to ask to scientific people about an idea that I found interesting: Simply ignorance. I don't think this is only my fault. Regards, Hamdi Ucar --------------BABA1E86D4F98660DAB5B90A Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <3373CFD8.7CFB085D verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 05:31:04 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Michael Rowe Subject: Transistor Cooling X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Sir, I am writing this letter for investigating and thermoelectric phenomenon recently observed by a friend on the Internet. The phenomenon is related to transistor which keep itself some degrees below the ambient temperature (25C). The transistor is operating on 50 MHz regions and switching inductive loads which develop transients about 100 Volts. The person who developed the electronic circuit and conducted the experiment is sure that is happening. Actually I have no exact experimental data this time, because the researcher is currently directed most his efforts on the primary function of the device. I think this not a Peltier effect because there is no other body to transfer the heat energy. I have not encountered an explanation yet on the literature for this effect. I am formerly an electronic engineer having substantial understandings on physical subjects but not enough skill for doing theoretical work. If you or an colleague having interest on this subject (assuming is a unknown effect), I will get more data about the experiment and able to reproduce it. Sincerely yours, Hamdi Ucar Istanbul, Turkey --------------BABA1E86D4F98660DAB5B90A-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 23 20:22:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA06382; Fri, 23 May 1997 19:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970523195224.00ab2e68 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:52:26 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: RE: Leaning Tower Of Pisa and Heat Pipes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-Za5o3.0.eZ1.KWbXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: According to UPS folks if it doesn't arrive by Wednesday 6pm than it is lost and you are going to get $100.00 unless you insured it for more. Good for you bad for me. At 02:07 PM 5/22/97 EDT, you wrote: >Frederick, > > > You will notice over where they have "Big Ben" on a tower they > > have lots of time, but, very little inclination. Right,Chris? > >Jed tells me that recent American studies have shown that British males are far >more - ah - 'active' than their Yank counterparts. Of course, I can only speak >for myself in such matters, but I'm getting no complaints.... > >Chris > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 00:08:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA07796; Sat, 24 May 1997 00:05:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:05:19 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC67D5.DD783970 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'freenrg-l eskimo.com'" Cc: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:03:02 -0700 Encoding: 15 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"4xE9C3.0.Nv1.kCfXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Unidentified subject! Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: >Build a ramp and gives us some feedback on reducing friction. I have >found that friction is a MAJOR source of energy loss and the biggest >cause of unreliable / unstable operation. Might there be one point where friction could be an aid? Just at the edge where the ball is about to fall off the end of the ramp, a *tiny* point of friction to brake the forward momentum, its angular momentum (because it's been spinning) carrying it over the edge? Dan Quickert dequickert ucdavis.edu (916) 756-0575 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 00:48:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA09490; Sat, 24 May 1997 00:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3386A78C.24ED earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 01:32:12 -0700 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Murray's Law: Eternal Exponential Expansion of Science Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5FXZq.0.CK2.0afXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: c1997 Rich Murray Communion for the Subjective Investigation of Claims of the Normal Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 rmforall earthlink.net 505-986-9103 April 5, 1997 Murray's Law: Eternal Exponential Expansion of Science Millenia of worldwide commonsense traditions have culminated in a recent few centuries of exponential scientific work. Since 1660, the number of scientists has grown from about 100 to about 10,000,000. Likewise, the volume of accumulated scientific literature, both doubling unstoppably every twenty years, rather like Mickey Mouse's hordes of relentlessly marching brooms in Disney's "The Sorcerer's Apprentice". This global orchestration of thought and practice has been firmly founded on certain principles, rarely questioned and widely held to be unquestionable. Experience is held to be entirely based on and derived from a basic reality, itself "external" to experience: physical, or more abstractly, time-space-energy. This base reality is universally assumed to be impersonal, consistent, orderly, lawful, causal, uniform, single, measurable, describable and communicable, continuous, contiguous, inherently simple, and based on a small set of unchangeable (in themselves) logical-mathematical operations. Therefore this reality can be modeled and predicted by the self-qualifying global society of scientists, based solely on communication by the external senses. In short, the primary reality, and its derivative, conscious experience, is absolutely normal. The primary image of this paradigm is that of the machine, or the modern embodiment, the computer: well-defined elements interacting in three-dimensional space along a single one-way track of causality to produce utterly normal results, however marvelous, varied, valuable, or unpredictable they may be in practice. This towering structure of established normality paradoxically both hides and makes even more significant any hints of "nonnormality". Hitherto, "anomalies", such as random variations in offspring, the fogging of sealed photographic plates by uranium ore, or slight static in sensitive radios, have become mere fodder for the assimilation program of science, leading to vast extensions of the range of the normal, including evolution, quantum mechanics, and the Big Bang. "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated"-- the implacable marching song of the Borg juggarnaut. Willem of Occam proclaimed, "Thou shalt not multiply entities needlessly." Indeed, hordes of angels, demons, ghosts, spirits, influences, and innate qualities have been relegated to that final dustbin of our race's mythic heritage, children's Saturday morning cartoons. Mature minds, entranced by ever more lofty and subtle theoretical visions, fed feasts of observation and experimentation on every level, constrained by principles of parsimony, generality, and elegance, have exuburantly, soberly created in a mere century: at the ever tapering tail of the dragon, atoms that are .999999 empty space, said empty space as a fully occupied negative energy sea of prodigious density, with incessant particle pair production-annihilation within that good old vacuum, the equivalence of mass and energy, the variation of observed time, with irreducible randomness, fuzziness, discontinuity, and, feh!, nonlocality at the very core of reality, the weird phenomena of superconductivity and superfluidity, the ever fecund boson-fermion zoo of baryons, mesons, quarks, gluons, neutrinos, WIMPs, gravitons, Higg's, magnetic monopoles, and their antis, and their superpartners, all cascading into actuality as infinitesimal loops vibrating within that most spacious crystal of abstraction, E8XE8 Group (The Monster) Symmetry, while now 6 additional dimensions of space are parsimoniously mandated. Whew! meanwhile, at the ever bigger end of said dragon, suddenly the galaxy!, sprinkled with pulsars and quasars, oh!, then an expanding universe of galaxies, salted with gamma-ray bursters, oh!, that all sprang into being as a space-time bubble with zero total energy as an infinitesimal quantum vacuum fluctuation in "something", oh!, our bubble of galaxies extends 10E+25 further than the 15 billion light years presently observable (that's 10E+75 greater volumn, folks), oh!, might be untold zillions of universe bubbles, forever disconnected, each with unique intrinsic properties, effervescing cheerily within "something", just the facts, Mam, heh, heh. Funny what the principle of parsimony leads to... gee whiz, I near forgot, black holes, them's wierd nuff, huh? Lot of 'em, too, all sizes! Oops, they evaporate! Blow up too! Wow! Gravitation radiation, anyone? We can plain see gravitational lensing! How about cosmic string and cosmic texture, frozen phase changes in space-time itself? remember, if it ain't prohibited, it mandatory. Yep! (Is anything really prohibited?) . I'm not complaining. It's surely wonderful. We taxpayers are getting our money's worth, and then some. But do you see any sign of convergence? Any saturation? Any deceleration? In emprirical fact, isn't what we see in a mere hundred years an unstoppably exponential avalanche of proliferation of creative subtleties? Isn't the most obvious outcome for the next century a continuation of this inexhaustibly creative weaving of this coat of many colors, worlds within worlds, without end, without any possible end, not in a hundred billion years of sentient evolution, not ever, forever? Isn't this, ahem, trend, amen, the primary observational fact of the whole hundred years? I say so. I hereby dignify this empirical law by a suitable appellation: Murrray's Law: In the overall exponential evolution of the scientific process, the scale of reality available for consideration and the diversity and sublety of its entities and interactions all increase exponentially, forever. In 1660, the linear grid of Cartesian coordinates comprised the primary paradigm for scientific reality. On its empty black and white board Newton drew alike the falling apple, the orbiting Moon. Now the archetypal image is the Mandlebrot Set, brilliantly and arbitrarily colored, forever inexhaustible in timeless infinity of subtle detail. Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 06:06:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA04372; Sat, 24 May 1997 05:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 05:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 07:45:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705241245.HAA22245 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Murray's Law: Eternal Exponential Expansion of Science Resent-Message-ID: <"P6xUG.0.D41.0DkXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:32 AM 5/24/97 -0700, Rich Murray wrote: >Murray's Law: Eternal Exponential Expansion of Science A very compelling view, Rich. No limits to science! I'm sure it will make some people very uncomfortable but, after having adjusted to the similar aspects of the zero-point field, I rather like it....not to mention the fact that it virtually guarantees that we will someday be able to resume exploration of new places. Ad astra! Scott Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 11:26:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA09121; Sat, 24 May 1997 11:17:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:17:06 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC682B.73268D00 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'freenrg-l eskimo.com'" Cc: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Simple OU Toy Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:15:38 -0700 Encoding: 26 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"2C5k82.0.NE2.W2pXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Saw the plans for the SMOT late last night on Jean-Louis Naudin's website. Immediately reconfigured one of my test rigs to see how the design works. Length, height of the ramp and the field contour adjustment generally in concept with the posted design, but used parts on hand - different size magnets (4mm x 20mm x 25mm), steel bar twice too long, wooden plant pot labels for spacers. With all that variation from the specs, it worked first time, with a lift of 18mm. Some previous experience with the ramps influenced that result, of course. Positioned a previously working ramp (of different design) at the new one's exit (second ramp's entrance at the same elevation as the first ramp's entrance); the ball ran through both ramps after minor horizontal adjustment at their linkage point. Will try to get materials to more exactly duplicate the posted design soon. Meanwhile, I'd say that the plans are good if I can go so far from the specs and still have it work so well. Of course there's also the possibility that it wouldn't work without my changes, but from my experience the differences in my quick mock-up were in the direction away from optimal. I'd opine that the design works, within a wide margin of construction variability. Dan Quickert dequickert ucdavis.edu 916-756-0575 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 11:34:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA19534; Sat, 24 May 1997 11:30:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:30:25 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970524142145_170550975 emout01.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, 76570.2270@compuserve.com, bssimon@helix.ucsd.edu, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro Subject: "Harmless Crank" Resent-Message-ID: <"HRSxM3.0.8n4.0FpXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merryman has reminded us on numerous occasions about his credentials. This is true, he is a Phd. That is important. He has also referred to Frank Znidarsic as a "harmless crank" and suggested that NASA should never support Znidarsic's programs implying that Znidarsic was stupid and uneducated. Yes it is true, I don't have the PHD that Merryman has, however, I am a long way from the uneducated crank that Merryman suggests. I will now set the record straight. I graduated 4th in my class in high school and received the American Legion Award for the highest academic standing. I obtained a 2 year certificate in Electronics Technology. I admit this is not much but it does demonstrate knowledge of electro technologies at the most basic level. I went on to earn a 4 year BS in Electrical Engineering from the Univ of Pittsburgh. The degree was a four year exercise in math and science. Notably I earned an A in general physics. I earned my Professional Engineering License in the state of Pa by taking the national test. This test includes such things as Forier Analyses, diff-E-Q, and electrical field theory. Most graduate engineers cannot pass it. I have a tytle also P.E. it goes after my name not in from like Phd, but its there. I earned, at night, a two year degree in Business from St. Francis College. Much of the material did not relate to energy and natural science, however, a good portion of it did. I took may courses on statistics, quantitative analysis, and Western Philosophy. I worked 22 years as an Engineer for 4 different companies. During that time I designed electromagnetic and electronic circuits that are currently in use in 1,000's of mines. I also worked with electromagnetic emissions and in the process obtained a First Class FCC license. I worked with chemical, hydrologic, and mechanical processes. During the course of these accomplishments I received a Class D water treatment plant operators license. I also have an asbestos supervisors license. I have just completed several courses in natural science at the Univ of Indiana. Of significant importance was the fact that I got an A in nuclear physics. It's an upper level graduate course that I was advised not to take. I published, The Genesis of the Universe and Zero Point Energy IE vol 1, No 5 & 6. This paper lays the foundations for the extraction of gravitational potential. I was published in the Journal of New Energy vol 1, No. 2 1996 "The Zero Point Interaction" This paper is an epic in that it explains that the range of interaction of the gravitational and nuclear forces changes within condensed system. Most recently at WPAFB in front of a notable audience from NEDO Japan and Geroge Miley I identified the humps of Miley's curves as being degeneracies in the spin orbit force. I also presented the idea that the nuclear spin orbit leaves the nucleus in condensed systems . That fact that I said this first and where and to whom I said it is no joke. A third paper, The Source of Gravitational and Internal Mass is now going to press in Electric Spacecraft. Preprints of it caught the eye of a few at NASA Marashall and now I am invited to the propulsion conference this August. This paper is a blockbuster in that it fully develops the symmetry between force and gravity. Again no joke. Barry I admit I do not have yet a PHD. I am a long way from a harmless crank that you suggest. I resent being called that. Frank Znidarsic  From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 12:49:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA06719; Sat, 24 May 1997 12:35:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:35:06 -0700 Date: 24 May 97 15:33:00 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: RE: Simple OU Toy Message-ID: <970524193259_100433.1541_BHG76-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"pbc8s.0.ee1.bBqXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dan, > With all that variation from the specs, it worked first time, with > a lift of 18mm. Are you saying that you are seeing continuous, unceasing motion in your implementation of this device? I mean, like perpetual motion, like? Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 14:01:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA14551; Sat, 24 May 1997 13:51:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:51:13 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC6849.368CF500 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Simple OU Toy Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:48:48 -0700 Encoding: 25 TEXT, 44 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"VI94i3.0.HZ3.0JrXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7225 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Chris, >Are you saying that you are seeing continuous, unceasing motion in your >implementation of this device? > >I mean, like perpetual motion, like? > >Chris > No, no, no! My post was just to confirm that the basic design that is posted on Jean Louis' website works - as far as it goes. It is *not* a closed-loop device, just the first stage. I added a second stage that I already had built to verify that the new one's exit properties were compatible with linking stages. Gosh and golly, if I had made a complete circle of it you would have seen lots of capital letters and exclamation points! BTW, a while ago I substituted neos for the ceramics: two 0.2" x 0.4" x 1.96" neos placed end-to-end on each side of the ramp. Minor adjustments (more spacing) and it was working. Still ramping up, Dan begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C04`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0! `(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! M. $````"`?8/`0````0````````",#,!!( !`!(```!213H@4VEM<&QE($]5 M(%1O>0![!0$% ,`#@```,T'!0`8``T`, `P``8`9 $!(( #``X```#-!P4` M& `-`" `$ `&`#0!`0F `0`A````.#1#13="-D0W-$0T1# Q,3DU1C P,#(P M049&-$8W,$8`0 # $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0```!<```!D97%U M:6-K97)T0'5C9&%V:7,N961U```#``80)9.O-0,`!Q!\` ``'@`($ $```!E M````2$E#2%))4RQ!4D593U5305E)3D=42$%464]505)%4T5%24Y'0T].5$E. M54]54RQ53D-%05-)3D=-3U1)3TY)3EE/55))35!,14U%3E1!5$E/3D]&5$A) M4T1%5DE#13])345!3 `````"`0D0`0```( #``!\`P``_P4``$Q:1G6;!-/; M_P`*`0\"%0*D`^0%ZP*#`% 3`U0"`&-H"L!S973N, 8`!L,"@S(#Q@<3`H-& M,P/%` !P-0* "H$-L0M ;F0A@('-A>?$+@&<@=!' !4 C M\ K >R/0$?!E)&(%H (P"X!U`PA@'I @=6YC96'?`) D<01@)A "(" +@"/B M_G( GR&O'YX'< M0%5 )\+,!D"=C;V8DD00`( VP]'9I)L _*"\I/Q^?+3]; M+D\O74DG,";0;B: ;#1I:R/0< 20-#!T=?\'0"30 ;\D5,"!W)N @:B9@!4"$=&\ETF9I M8 "0%4! 0 6P:P0@+3LE( 0@9@K!0&%%$"!G6F\'D"XS4$,C*C]0=)XJ M)2 ET!C0$?!D+1C0_&]P+*4F $"40?%!04 AL14P86=E1N$E(&0-L/]#P$? M$? EX4/ 2A,DE$J!OFP90$J /^ 1P$/ 8D2 NFQ PW8&R4+$K<$4A8T%01^ CT,\L M,49Q(_)%4'5L0\ 1P&]-L"5B`Z 8T'0$("PQ8_QA<$40-*%4X15 $>!2X_M/ M4$? 80# )V- ``N 5V!B(3X\0E17)H!'P'>?+'!1(4HP0/ S8'-U1/#_)A T M $.B3K! $$7P!;%!XLTFP')90"S@H<(T7N(Q+CDV M7N!=`Z\+42; 6.%+8"U X"U L>]#TB;0$; D(&E442PS(]#U7?%P1N!-"X % ML4J 0)+[*Y($("@$8"5"/&!5,!Q OBE2XT9Q0%)%4B1A+CP_>QU,9D53)A 6 ML6*B)&)U]G >IF9%1!%Q9QPX31AA` !LX ,`$! ``````P`1$ ````! ``

`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33] %-P``W(!H ` end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 16:48:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA14479; Sat, 24 May 1997 16:40:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 16:40:25 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC6860.DD2E9D20 ip206.ts8.phx.inficad.com> From: Reed Huish To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Mike Fisher sounds sensible Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:36:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BC6860.DD2E9D20" Resent-Message-ID: <"Aw3iZ2.0.9Y3.entXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7226 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC6860.DD2E9D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed wrote: Johnson was being sarcastic. That's British "humour" [sic]. It's over = your head. Even back in 1775, when Dr. J. said that, we Americans just didn't = get it. Actually Mike Fisher is a merry English bloke who is just a riot to be = around some times. It's that classic understated and reserved English = humor. Lately I've been learning a bit of cockney rhyming slang from = him (trouble and strife =3D wife, dog and bone =3D phone, etc.). The fact that Mike's an engineering graduate from Cambridge helps give = our team a good dose of scientific rationale, since the other two = partners in Zenergy are entrepreneurs. - Reed Huish Zenergy Corp http://zenergy.com ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC6860.DD2E9D20 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgkXAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAHAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2lt by5jb20AU01UUAB2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAUAAAAdm9ydGV4LWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbQADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAWAAAA J3ZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20nAAAAAgELMAEAAAAZAAAAU01UUDpWT1JURVgtTEBFU0tJTU8u Q09NAAAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAACMDMBBIABACAAAABSRTogTWlr ZSBGaXNoZXIgc291bmRzIHNlbnNpYmxlACkLAQWAAwAOAAAAzQcFABcACQAkACIABQBEAQEggAMA DgAAAM0HBQAXAAkAGgAqAAUAQgEBCYABACEAAAA1NTJGNjQ3QTQzRDNEMDExQjk3Q0Y4MEEwNEMx MDAwMAD0BgEDkAYAlAQAABQAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAA AAAAQAA5AEBeV3qXZ7wBHgBwAAEAAAAgAAAAUkU6IE1pa2UgRmlzaGVyIHNvdW5kcyBzZW5zaWJs ZQACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvGeXeiV6ZC9W00MR0Ll8+AoEwQAAAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAA AB4AHwwBAAAAEQAAAHJlZWRAemVuZXJneS5jb20AAAAAAwAGENoaxkYDAAcQDwIAAB4ACBABAAAA ZQAAAEpFRFdST1RFOkpPSE5TT05XQVNCRUlOR1NBUkNBU1RJQ1RIQVRTQlJJVElTSCJIVU1PVVIi U0lDSVRTT1ZFUllPVVJIRUFERVZFTkJBQ0tJTjE3NzUsV0hFTkRSSlNBSURUSEEAAAAAAgEJEAEA AAADAwAA/wIAAEIEAABMWkZ1PVOiTf8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArAc2V07jIGAAbD AoMyA8YHEwKDujMTDX0KgAjPCdk7Ff94MjU1AoAKgQ2xC2BuMGcxMDMUIAsDbGm8MzYN8AtVEvIM AWMAQCQgSgmAIHcDYHRlXjoKhwtkFCIMAXAbkmPjBUAKhUpvaACAAiAbcBJhBCBiZQuAZyBzBQrA Yx7AdGljLiDSVBHAdCcEIEIFEB+wwHNoICJodQRgCHBIIiBbAJBjXR/gSckgMm92BJAgeQhhCoXQ aGVhZB/gRSJQA6ASYgDQayALgCAxNzg3NSwbcCNAA6BEcq0f4Eof4B9QaRtgdCARfSSxZRNwB4AF EB+ABjFqknUfoCBkJbBuJwVA7mcSAAqFIJAuG+8L4h22Kwr7GplBHZB1B0BseekF0GlrJlBGILEi YQQAqCBhICaBcixgRRkAtxnAIMECYG8soSTQby0y/ycTLXAFEBugJdAu8B7wLWD5A2B1bhtgHnAH gCXQB3LnH+Ah5CXiIGMLYAQQH8D+IDCRBJAfoCAgG1EAcBtg+xYAEfByIlAbYC32IQIlMcwgTDMx LFFJJyJQHuG9I8FsI1AEoB8SLXBiIJCVIjBmMjBvJBBuZSxg3HJoBsAfExjiIANSIzDxB3AgKHQw cQJgMEEwonc5gAaQJlA9G3A6cSSwZL5vNtEwoQbgN8A6oXAu4O83wCSwEgAf0CkolioFIAD9JlBm ANAv4TICLIIgQQOR/QnwZwuACeAFEB8hCcAjYGcsIBuwONRDYQbQBRBk8yfQIzFscAQgP3A14Qhh zyXQI1A5EC1wZ28EcDsh/xHwN0IE8AiQAjAGkDKRQCCfH7ACIAdAOwEAkG5jMQFnPeEboC0CdHcu 8CoxdLc3wBHgJDJaCfAEkGcsYP8KwCZQQ/EWAB1ARzEIcDFgnTz8LQfwCeAbYEh1ILFPKgUxgEcm CFBycEpnaEECQHA6Ly96RzQufQWgbTz8GW8adx1NFSEAAVEQAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAABAAAcw 4HJkGZZnvAFAAAgw4HJkGZZnvAEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAAfkI= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC6860.DD2E9D20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 16:50:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA15602; Sat, 24 May 1997 16:42:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 16:42:54 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970524234239.0067cee8 atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:42:39 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Re: "Harmless Crank" Resent-Message-ID: <"-GeCH3.0.ip3.zptXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7227 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank Znidarsic (FZNIDARSIC aol.com) writes: >Barry Merryman has reminded us on numerous occasions about his >credentials. This is true, he is a Phd. That is important. He has also >referred to Frank Znidarsic as a "harmless crank" and suggested that NASA >should never support Znidarsic's programs implying that Znidarsic was >stupid and uneducated. Yes it is true, I don't have the PHD that Merryman >has, however, I am a long way from the uneducated crank that Merryman >suggests. I will now set the record straight. > >I graduated 4th in my class in high school and received the American >Legion Award for the highest academic standing. > >I obtained a 2 year certificate in Electronics Technology. I admit this >is not much but it does demonstrate knowledge of electro technologies at >the most basic level. > >I went on to earn a 4 year BS in Electrical Engineering from the Univ of >Pittsburgh. The degree was a four year exercise in math and science. >Notably I earned an A in general physics. > >I earned my Professional Engineering License in the state of Pa by taking >the national test. This test includes such things as Forier Analyses, >diff-E-Q, and electrical field theory. Most graduate engineers cannot >pass it. I have a tytle also P.E. it goes after my name not in from like >Phd, but its there. > >I earned, at night, a two year degree in Business from St. Francis >College. Much of the material did not relate to energy and natural >science, however, a good portion of it did. I took may courses on >statistics, quantitative analysis, and Western Philosophy. > >I worked 22 years as an Engineer for 4 different companies. During that >time I designed electromagnetic and electronic circuits that are >currently in use in 1,000's of mines. I also worked with electromagnetic >emissions and in the process obtained a First Class FCC license. I worked >with chemical, hydrologic, and mechanical processes. During the course of >these accomplishments I received a Class D water treatment plant >operators license. I also have an asbestos supervisors license. > >I have just completed several courses in natural science at the Univ of >Indiana. Of significant importance was the fact that I got an A in >nuclear physics. It's an upper level graduate course that I was advised >not to take. > >I published, The Genesis of the Universe and Zero Point Energy IE vol 1, >No 5 & 6. This paper lays the foundations for the extraction of >gravitational potential. > >I was published in the Journal of New Energy vol 1, No. 2 1996 "The Zero >Point Interaction" This paper is an epic in that it explains that the >range of interaction of the gravitational and nuclear forces changes >within condensed system. > >Most recently at WPAFB in front of a notable audience from NEDO Japan and >Geroge Miley I identified the humps of Miley's curves as being >degeneracies in the spin orbit force. I also presented the idea that the >nuclear spin orbit leaves the nucleus in condensed systems . That fact >that I said this first and where and to whom I said it is no joke. > >A third paper, The Source of Gravitational and Internal Mass is now going >to press in Electric Spacecraft. Preprints of it caught the eye of a few >at NASA Marashall and now I am invited to the propulsion conference this >August. This paper is a blockbuster in that it fully develops the >symmetry between force and gravity. Again no joke. > >Barry I admit I do not have yet a PHD. I am a long way from a harmless >crank that you suggest. I resent being called that. Your credentials seem pretty good to me. Regarding the PhD, on the one hand people who have PhDs tend to look down on those who don't have this credential, and on the other hand people who don't have a PhD in turn have rationalizations for why those with PhDs really aren't so smart or are even stupid. One's perspective with regard to the value and meaning of the PhD depends on whether one has it or not. Since you are an expert of sorts, what is your opinion about Mills' lower-energy-states-for-hydrogen theory? Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 18:51:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA01591; Sat, 24 May 1997 18:44:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 18:44:24 -0700 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 18:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705250144.SAA10465 italy.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy Resent-Message-ID: <"uF-t52.0.jO.tbvXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7228 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > >The plans for the Phase 1 device will be out by mid week, maybe sooner. > >I have e-mailed the original drawings to Jean-Louis. > >Build a ramp and gives us some feedback on reducing friction. I have >found that friction is a MAJOR source of energy loss and the biggest >cause of unreliable / unstable operation. > Hi Greg, The plans for the Phase 1 device looks complete. Jean-Louis did a great job of drawing them up and posting the plans at his site: http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm Thanks Greg and Jean-Louis! With this kind of detailed information the probability of successful duplication should increase. A list of suppliers would be needed next. And then those that are "skilled in the art" can assemble a unit for sale for people that don't have the time to build one but would still like to experiment with. Looking forward to the next Phases! Best Regards, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 20:52:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA04976 for billb@eskimo.com; Sat, 24 May 1997 20:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:51:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: tim.vaughan trex.ccc-infonet.edu Sat May 24 20:51:50 1997 Received: from TREX.CCC-INFONET.EDU (ptero.ccc-infonet.edu [205.186.195.4]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA04917 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 20:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by trex.ccc-infonet.edu (Wildcat) id 46032W Sun, 25 May 1997 03:50:15 GMT From: tim.vaughan trex.ccc-infonet.edu (Tim Vaughan) Subject: Watson's Amazing (re)Discovery Old-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:50:08 GMT Message-Id: <864532208 trex.ccc-infonet.edu> Organization: Yosemite Community College District To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: This message was originally addressed to freenrg-L eskimo.com and a carbon copy was sent to you. ---------------------------------------- Thanks Greg for making this available for all of us play with !! So simple, yet so profound ! The Simple Overunity Toy is demonstrating a very interesting phenomena. Ferromagnetism probably has the inherent ability to cohere or organize fluctuation energy. But whatever is making the ball go round the track can be scaled up in a different form to produce large amounts of energy like Hans Coler did in 1930's in Germany. Let us not let Greg Watson's rediscovery of this important principle be ignored like it was in 1879 with Wesley Gary's device. History is in the making here ! Please keep posting your observations on the freenrg-l as it becomes available to all and is recorded for posterity. Thanks to Jean-Louis Naudin for the excellent web page describing it with great drawing, pictures, and a video: < http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/smot1.htm > Tim Vaughan ( tv juno.com ) CC: vortex-l eskimo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 20:58:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA02924; Sat, 24 May 1997 20:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33879BCD.54FE interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:54:21 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: MY HAT'S OFF! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-f81H.0.cj.HHxXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7229 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: My hat's off to Greg Watson and Jean-Louis Naudin for a CLEAR-AS-A-BELL description of the simple OU toy! It's refreshing to see such an HONEST EFFORT TO COMMUNICATE where an OU device is involved. Greg knows I tend to be a skeptic in this area, but he may be about ready to make me eat my shorts(from the dirty bag - not clean!)! Keep up the GOOD and HONEST work! (Thanks for not making me study a patent!!) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 21:24:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA06511; Sat, 24 May 1997 21:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3387BB9F.3D5E gorge.net> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:10:07 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ion exchange in Manures References: <199705240748.AAA11421 mx2.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_IYYv1.0.eb1.4fxXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7230 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick If I remember correctly, Sulfuric acid is used in papermaking to dissolve the lignin holding cellulose fibers together. I think the result is "lignin sulphate," or "dimethylsulphoxide," or "DMSO," a useful solvent, and anti-inflamatory. For what it's worth, I tend to prefer simple methanization of biomass, especially manures. It can be done in very simple crude "third world" digesters. The material left over is said to make excellent fertilizer. The "ash," or minerals can be utilized directly to grow more biomass, even food. The methane, if cleaned, can be used directly to run a conventional ICE, either a stationary generator, or an auto, tractor, or truck. It is also the begininning point in the manufacture of many organic chemicals. "Simplify, ...simplify..." Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 21:58:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA27455; Sat, 24 May 1997 21:51:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:51:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3387C6CB.1F69 skypoint.com> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:57:47 -0500 From: John Logajan Organization: Skypoint Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MY HAT'S OFF! References: <33879BCD.54FE interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"85yst2.0.vi6.WLyXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7231 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Francis J. Stenger wrote: > My hat's off to Greg Watson and Jean-Louis Naudin for a CLEAR-AS-A-BELL > description of the simple OU toy! Greg's simplification of the Hartman device is impressive. But allow me to continue to play the doubter. In Jean-Louis Naudin's stills and AVI animation, the "exit" platform (in black) is obviously lower than the start position on the raised rails. Therefore there is yet no anomaly apparent when the ball rolls off-frame in the animated AVI on the black exit platform. (The ball has effectively fallen to a lower gravitational potential, which fully explains its "pull" though the magentic "bump" and its gain in kinetic energy.) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 22:31:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA31516; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:22:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:22:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3387C8B1.4619 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:35:53 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnets for simple OU Toy References: <199705250400.VAA13781 ganymede.compumedia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pWqEA.0.Ei7.foyXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7235 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Becker wrote: > > >Has anyone found a good supplier for magnets.... Hi Scott, The magnets I use are ceramic fridge magnets. Nothing special or flash. They cost me $5 Aust ($3.50 US) for 100 (One Hundred!) at a local JayCar Electronics Store. Would you suggest you call suppliers of fridge magnet products. They have lots of interesting magnetic materials at LOW COST. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 22:34:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA31413; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:22:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:22:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3387CAD4.16A0 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:45:00 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: "'freenrg-l eskimo.com'" Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy References: <01BC682B.73268D00 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SzbXT2.0.bg7.GoyXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: > > Saw the plans for the SMOT late last night on Jean-Louis Naudin's website. > > Immediately reconfigured one of my test rigs to see how the design works. > Length, height of the ramp and the field contour adjustment generally in > concept with the posted design, but used parts on hand - different size > magnets (4mm x 20mm x 25mm), steel bar twice too long, wooden plant pot > labels for spacers. With all that variation from the specs, it worked first > time, with a lift of 18mm. Some previous experience with the ramps > influenced that result, of course. > > Positioned a previously working ramp (of different design) at the new one's > exit (second ramp's entrance at the same elevation as the first ramp's > entrance); the ball ran through both ramps after minor horizontal > adjustment at their linkage point. Good to see they linked so easily. Sometimes ramp linking is tricky. > Will try to get materials to more exactly duplicate the posted design soon. > Meanwhile, I'd say that the plans are good if I can go so far from the > specs and still have it work so well. Of course there's also the > possibility that it wouldn't work without my changes, but from my > experience the differences in my quick mock-up were in the direction away > from optimal. I'd opine that the design works, within a wide margin of > construction variability. > > Dan Quickert Hi Dan, Thanks for the good words. I spent quite a lot of time to design a simple to build ramp which also has inbuilt WIDE margins and is simple to adjust. KISS the best design. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 22:36:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA00637; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:32:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:32:42 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3387CEF2.3524 math.ucla.edu> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:32:34 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Harmless Crank" References: <970524142145_170550975 emout01.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cesqk1.0.q9.vxyXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7238 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > > I am a long way from harmless crank that you suggest. > I resent being called that. > > Frank Znidarsic > As I have said before, it is entirely possible for a person to be a crank in one field and top notch in another. You are no doubt a better engineer than I. The reason I have called you a "crank" is that you have a thoroughly unjustified confidence in your own speculations in physics, exaberated by your rather limited knowledge of existing modern physics. It is fine and wonderful to speculate on what might be---but when one *believes* ones own speculations, that is the slippery slope to crankdom. As for credentialism: you will note that I don't normally use my "PhD" title, e.g. its not on my .sig or my credit cards, etc. I only pull it out when *other* people are trying to trump up their own credentials (e.g. by wanting to compare grades in nuclear physics classes). The sad thing is you don't seem to get my point: you are not going to be funded by NASA, and you are wasting your time in trying. And moreover, you do not *deserve* to be funded by NASA, as your proposal lacks merit in many directions. But of course, don't take my word for it. Be my guest and apply. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 22:42:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA15387; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3387D559.58E45F66 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 09:59:53 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MY HAT'S OFF! X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <33879BCD.54FE interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6aNB-3.0.Jm3.YlyXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7232 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > My hat's off to Greg Watson and Jean-Louis Naudin for a CLEAR-AS-A-BELL > description of the simple OU toy! It's refreshing to see such an > HONEST EFFORT TO COMMUNICATE where an OU device is involved. Greg knows > I tend to be a skeptic in this area, but he may be about ready to make > me eat my shorts(from the dirty bag - not clean!)! Keep up the GOOD and > HONEST work! (Thanks for not making me study a patent!!) > > Frank Stenger Warning! There is trick on this SMOT!: The device may work anyway with or without exhibiting OU. The trick is that is very difficult to test it whether it is working in a OU mode or not. I believe that this issue is known well by Greg Watson, but anybody will not be aware of this and unconditionally they might believe that their own build device is an OU. And the problem may rise when a third party proof it is not. Criteria is already explained by Greg Watson by the letter: Re: Simple OU Toy Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:50:12 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com For the OU effect ball will exit with enough energy for getting free from magnetic attraction. The bonus will be the self staring energy plus the final energy at the exit remaing after freeing from attractions of magnets. Simply dropping from the ramp is not sign the OU! As summary, gravitational + magnetic potential energy on the ball must be higher on the exit. Less the magnetic attaction is more the magnetic potentional energy. Regards, Hamdi Ucar Everybody should know it! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 22:44:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA15651; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3387CB90.6C8 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:48:08 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: regarding over unity ramp References: <1.5.4.16.19970524133621.3eafceaa pop.mymail.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BhX8R3.0.Tq3.foyXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7233 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael C Slivinski wrote: > > Hello all, > wouldn't the OU ramp that has been demonstrated qualify for the prise monies > offered by groups offering a demo of it. also I beleive even the Sceptics > group, (not sure of the name) is offering a nice purse. Once demonstrated > and monies claimed, of course could fund further research. > just thoughts > Mike Slivinski sunbrite mymail.net Hi Mike, The single SMOT ramp is not clearly OU. You need to finish the Phase 4 device for that. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 22:45:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA02345; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:41:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:41:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3387D039.1592 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:08:01 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Score References: <199705250319.UAA13112 ganymede.compumedia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9yYhV2.0.Za.r3zXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7240 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Becker wrote: > > Got it working Couldn't get it working > Phase I 2 0 > Phase II > > Scott Becker > skot compumedia.com Hi Scott, Does that mean you have now BUILT two SMOT ramps and they BOTH work? If so, excellent work. If not, WHY NOT? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 22:46:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA15970; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3387CC22.61C9 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:50:34 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy References: <970524193259_100433.1541_BHG76-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6AFDA2.0.Qv3.apyXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7236 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > Dan, > > > With all that variation from the specs, it worked first time, with > > a lift of 18mm. > > Are you saying that you are seeing continuous, unceasing motion in your > implementation of this device? > > I mean, like perpetual motion, like? > > Chris Hi Chris, The single SMOT ramp is not clearly OU. You will need to finish the Phase 4 device for that. But the ramp sure makes you think. Have you built yours yet? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 22:47:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA02437; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:41:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:41:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3387CF6A.763C microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:04:34 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnets for simple OU Toy References: <01BC682B.73268D00 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> <33878C87.61E0@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"T-16L1.0._b.G4zXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dave DeLeo wrote: > > Has anyone found a good supplier for magnets.... > > I have been using radio shack ceramics for my ramps but they are not the > same size as in the plans. Also they are expensive and the plans > recommend 64 per ramp, I have been using about 16 per ramp. Edmund > Scientific didn't have any in 4x10x13mm at least not in the catalog I > have (1996-97 optics and optical instruments catalog). I would like to > build this as soon as possible so if someone could help me get my hands > on these I would appreciate it. > > Dave DeLeo Hi Dave, You can use different size magnets. The only problem is the ramp length is designed for the mag field produced by the magnet arrays being 104mm long. If you alter the length of the arrays, you will have to alter the length of the ramp. The magnet arrays should be 13-15mm longer than the ramp. This allows for max energy transfer to the ball as it climbs the ramp and puts the exit point in the "sweet spot" at the end of the ramp's mag field. By the way, my magnets are ceramic fridge magnets and they cost me $5 ($3.50 US) for 100 (One Hundred). Nothing fancy, just cheap and easy to use to build different size arrays. Best Regards. Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 22:54:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA17243; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3387CD18.1C47 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:54:40 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Crude Success References: <970524105239_-1130233143 emout06.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"O-j-H2.0.CD4.JzyXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7239 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tixif aol.com wrote: > > Since my local hobby store wasn't open yet, I' had to play with the materials > I have: > 1. Track made from 2 notebook binders space ~13mm apart. > 2. Binder edges resting on a calculator ~10mm thick for the rise of the > ramp. > 3. A mouse track ball still with the rubber grip insulation around it (high > friction!) > 4. A pushpin to keep the ball from rolling back down during startup, stuck > into the binders ~66mm from the exit end. > 5. 4 ceramic mags (3/8"X3/4"X1 13/16"). > The ball WILL roll up the ramp and drop out of the field. > Shawn Hi Shawn, Good work. There are many variations possible. The SMOT plans will allow multi ramps to be easily linked. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 22:57:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA16897; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3387CD7C.607C microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:56:20 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork References: <970524182549_55381434 emout13.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"M4KEU1.0.u74.wvyXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7237 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HLafonte aol.com wrote: > > Could you give the the web address of Jean-Louis so I could see the drawings? > Thanks, Butch LaFonte Hi Butch, Its at : http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/smot1.htm Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 23:22:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA07731; Sat, 24 May 1997 23:12:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:12:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3387D5C3.761 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:31:39 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: video References: <970524124430_843036541 emout11.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"moUX51.0.ju1.EXzXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HLafonte aol.com wrote: > > Greg, > Do you have any video of your ou device working for extended periods of > time? > Butch LaFonte Hi Butch, Of the RMOD (working on the patent) device, Yes (But not for publication yet). Of the SMOT, No. But you will soon have a working device to play with. Started building yet? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 23:29:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA09498; Sat, 24 May 1997 23:26:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:26:01 -0700 Message-Id: <3387E522.3C113D73 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:07:14 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MY HAT'S OFF!:Corrected X-Priority: 2 (High) References: <33879BCD.54FE interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sU708.0.KK2.vjzXp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a corrected of my previous posting "Re: MY HAT'S OFF!" Last statements are NOT BELONG to Greg Watson but to me. Below is the corrected version: Warning! There is trick on this SMOT!: The device(single ramp) may work anyway with or without exhibiting OU. The trick is that is very difficult to test it whether it is working in a OU mode or not. For the OU effect ball will exit with enough energy for getting free from magnetic attraction. The bonus will be the self starting energy plus the final energy at the exit reaming after freeing from attractions of magnets. Simply dropping from the ramp is not sign the OU! As summary, gravitational + magnetic potential energy on the ball must be higher on the exit. Less the magnetic attraction is more the magnetic potential energy. Criteria is already mentioned by Greg Watson by the letter: Re: Simple OU Toy Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:50:12 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com and later by the letter: Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:50:34 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 23:31:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA21050; Sat, 24 May 1997 23:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3387D3D8.3EBF microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:23:28 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MY HAT'S OFF! References: <33879BCD.54FE interlaced.net> <3387C6CB.1F69@skypoint.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3264381972D9" Resent-Message-ID: <"vaDQ31.0.U85.XRzXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3264381972D9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Logajan wrote: > > Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > My hat's off to Greg Watson and Jean-Louis Naudin for a CLEAR-AS-A-BELL > > description of the simple OU toy! > > Greg's simplification of the Hartman device is impressive. > > But allow me to continue to play the doubter. In Jean-Louis Naudin's > stills and AVI animation, the "exit" platform (in black) is obviously > lower than the start position on the raised rails. Therefore there > is yet no anomaly apparent when the ball rolls off-frame in the > animated AVI on the black exit platform. (The ball has effectively > fallen to a lower gravitational potential, which fully explains > its "pull" though the magentic "bump" and its gain in kinetic > energy.) > > -- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - Hi John, The SMOT ramp as designed was not intended to be a class 3 ramp (Roll away). That's tricky to build and adjust. I have posted my theory on how this happens before, but I have attached the Gif again. This design is intended to be a starting point to allow others the chance to build and play with mag ramps. In Phase 2 we will build 4 ramps and link them all together. When you SEE there is NO slow down as the ball moves through the ramps, you will start to BELIEVE where we are going. When we get to Phase 4, the ball WILL go round and round! Have you built your SMOT ramp yet? By the way, I can't get into Jean-Louis's server to look at his pictures. Seems to be very busy!!!!!! 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From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, JNaudin509@aol.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT v1.0 - TESTS PASSED References: <970524114826_1889007739 emout12.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"s8rdn2.0.xZ5.uezXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > Today, I have built and tested SUCCESSFULLY your SMOT v1.0. > You will find some pictures and a video ( AVI ) of my experiment. > No measurement has been made, today. > > I have updated my web site with this pictures and video at : > http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/smot1jln.htm > > Sincerely, > > Jean-Louis Naudin Hi Jean-Louis, Thanks for the excellent work. I can't get into your server. Seems a lot of people are interested. That's really good. Hope the server survives. I am still trying to get photos of MY unit to post. Phase 2 is next. We will need to build and link 4 ramps together and show all the doubters that the ball doesn't slow down as it moves through the ramps. That's when EVERYONE will start jumping up a down as it will then be very clear that a linked loop will work. Phase 3 will see a curved (45 deg) ramp. Tricker to adjust, but after building and linking 4 ramps, not too hard. Phase 4 will link 8 x 45 deg ramps and its all over except for the shouting match and fighting over how and why it works and who was and wasn't wrong. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 24 23:56:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA25928; Sat, 24 May 1997 23:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3387DC80.7B44 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:00:24 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MY HAT'S OFF! References: <33879BCD.54FE interlaced.net> <3387D559.58E45F66@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sqjSx2.0.rK6.luzXp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > > > My hat's off to Greg Watson and Jean-Louis Naudin for a CLEAR-AS-A-BELL > > description of the simple OU toy! It's refreshing to see such an > > HONEST EFFORT TO COMMUNICATE where an OU device is involved. Greg knows > > I tend to be a skeptic in this area, but he may be about ready to make > > me eat my shorts(from the dirty bag - not clean!)! Keep up the GOOD and > > HONEST work! (Thanks for not making me study a patent!!) > > > > Frank Stenger > > Warning! There is trick on this SMOT!: > > The device may work anyway with or without exhibiting OU. The trick is > that is very difficult to test it whether it is working in a OU mode or > not. > > I believe that this issue is known well by Greg Watson, but anybody will > not be aware of this and unconditionally they might believe that their > own build device is an OU. And the problem may rise when a third party > proof it is not. > > Criteria is already explained by Greg Watson by the letter: > > Re: Simple OU Toy > Resent-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:27:42 -0700 (PDT) > Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com > Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:50:12 +0930 > From: Greg Watson > Organization: Greg Watson Consulting > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com > > > For the OU effect ball will exit with enough energy for getting free > from magnetic attraction. The bonus will be the self staring energy plus > the final energy at the exit remaing after freeing from attractions of > magnets. > Simply dropping from the ramp is not sign the OU! I agree fully. AND I have stated this before. > As summary, gravitational + magnetic potential energy on the ball must > be higher on the exit. Less the magnetic attaction is more the magnetic > potentional energy. > > Regards, > > Hamdi Ucar > > Everybody should know it! Hi Hamdi, The Phase 1 SMOT device is not clearly OU. It is not designed to be so. After we finish with Phase 4 (linking 4 ramps) and ALL can see the ball doesn't slow down while moving through the ramps, however the final destination will seem VERY clear. Have you started building your Phase 1 SMOT device yet? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 01:16:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA02550; Sun, 25 May 1997 00:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3387D9FF.4A6B microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:49:43 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! References: <01BC67D5.DD783970 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4qXka3.0.ld.a3_Xp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > >Build a ramp and gives us some feedback on reducing friction. I have > >found that friction is a MAJOR source of energy loss and the biggest > >cause of unreliable / unstable operation. > > Might there be one point where friction could be an aid? Just at the edge > where the ball is about to fall off the end of the ramp, a *tiny* point of > friction to brake the forward momentum, its angular momentum (because it's > been spinning) carrying it over the edge? > > Dan Quickert Hi Dan, You mean like a bur. Good idea, will try it. But it could be tricky to duplicate and I am trying to KISS the whole project. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 01:22:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA03346 for billb@eskimo.com; Sun, 25 May 1997 01:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:22:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: gwatson microtronics.com.au Sun May 25 01:22:08 1997 Received: from orca.microtronics.com.au (root orca.microtronics.com.au [203.30.55.1]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA03320; Sun, 25 May 1997 01:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp.microtronics.com.au (ppp0j.microtronics.com.au [203.30.55.109]) by orca.microtronics.com.au (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA02007; Sun, 25 May 1997 17:50:22 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <3387F230.6212 microtronics.com.au> Old-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:32:56 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT Phase 1 Plans (Part 2) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------70CB6E933B0E" X-Diagnostic: Submission size exceeds 40000 bytes X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------70CB6E933B0E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Here is part 2. 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2Mu9OMNxtMG2Dfm87du2ZBYnP7yzKBidTbfGBNrBlDuecvyz0FrHdjwn9bnHfNzHfvzHgGxp yhEBADs= --------------70CB6E933B0E-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 01:26:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA19610; Sun, 25 May 1997 01:21:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:21:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3387F2D4.20C7 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:35:40 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT Phase 1 Plans (Part 4) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4F5833DA5388" Resent-Message-ID: <"xofZt.0.Ko4.CQ_Xp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. 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RRXYcaGNQQfSiikIGGOlH1NFFDGIT6DFISCvvRRQAE+9IeBmiigAHvRRRTA//9k= --------------2C8D220453A5-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 01:41:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA03309; Sun, 25 May 1997 01:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3387F1C4.25C8 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:31:08 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT Phase 1 Plans (Part 1) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5CE7549A6DC6" Resent-Message-ID: <"S1hP72.0.Rp.IQ_Xp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7248 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5CE7549A6DC6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Here are the plans for the Phase 1 device. You will need to master building this device before we proced to Phase 2 and link 4 ramps. ------------------------------- The Greg Watson Simple Overunity Toy S.M.O.T Version 1.0 created on 23 May 1997 - drawing by Jean-Louis Naudin Last update 24 May 1997 CONSTRUCTION TIPS : Make magnet spacing adjustment holes (for the straight pins) in the balsa base every 0.5mm from the ALUM "U" channel. Alternate them up and down by 0.5 mm. This helps to reduce the balsa becoming totally destroyed by too many pin holes and aids returning to the same adjustment that worked before. Normally adjustments in 0.5mm increments are fine enough. The Alum "U" channel is NOT fixed to the balsa base. The balse side supports hold it firmly but still allow it to be moved for adjustment or removed for polishing, ect. "Polish" the side rails with a "HARD" lead pencil rubbed on the supporting edges used by the ball until you can feel no bumps. Leave the graphite on the edges. It really helps to reduce frictional losses. Remember "NOISE" is energy lost. The side magnet assys are made up of small 4x10x13mm ceramic fridge magnets. They are superglued togther. The 3x10x104mm steel bar serves as a support for building and helps to even out the magnetic graduations in the ramp. The steel bar should be outside the ramp. If placed on the inside, the field will be weakened as the soft domains will allow the magnets field to return to the other pole too easily. Treat the magnet assys with care, the combined strength is quite high and the assys will suck to each other over quite a distance and as the ferrite material is brittle, you could easily break your magnets. ADJUSTMENTS : RAMP and BALSA SUPPORT BASE : The bend in the 12mm Alum "U" channel should be adjusted for a 12mm clearance from the underside of the end of the ramp. In otherwords, the entry section of another ramp should just fit under the exit of the preceeding. Thats what the notch in the lower balse base piece is for. Once the bend angle is done and the rolling surfaces are polished, fit the channel into the balsa base and slide it up and down until the 20mm section just touches the level table or whatver you are sitting it on. Check that the bottom of the ramp just clears a spare section of channel. If not, sand or otherwise adjust the height of the end of the ramp supports. Now go back and recheck the 20mm section is still on the table. Mark a line on the bottom of the channel inline with the bottom edge of the balsa support base for future reference. It is very important for the end cut off of the ramp to be clean and at right angles to the ramp. It is the exit rails that the ball will use to exit. If the cut is off, the ball on exit will be thrown to one side or the other and a clean exit will be very hard to achieve. MAGNET POSITINING : Top magnet spacing (measured from the inside of the Alum "U" channel (1.5mm wall thickness) is approx 6mm, bottom spacing is approx 10mm. The bottom egde of the magnet assys are in line with the start of the ramp (the hacksaw cut). These spacing will vary with the strength of the magnets you use. As the ball rolls up the ramp, it will "Hit" a end wall. This wall is magnetic and is produces by the quick reduction in the field strength that occurs at the end of the magnet assys. If you slide the magnets down the ramp and release a ball on the 20mm start platform, you should see the ball climb the ramp and then, as it nears the end, quickly be thrown back down the ramp. What you must now do is to slowly move the magnet assys up the ramp until this bounce back point is just over the exit point. If you move the magnets too far up. the ball will be pulled off the end rails and be pulled onto one of the side magnets. There is a balance point where the ball drops over the end and rolls down the end rails, but is gently forced back onto the end rails as it falls. MAGNET VERTICAL POSITIONING : It is IMPORTANT that the vertical centre of the magnet arrays is ABOVE the centre of the steel ball. This helps to reduce rolling friction. Care must be observed as too high a magnet position and the ball will be sucked off the track by any unbalances side to side magnetic forces. I use paper to shim the side magnet assys up and down. The better the side to side balance, the higher the magnets can be moved and the better the whole thing works. GETTING THE BEST RESULTS : Once you have mastered the initial adjustments and can get the ball to climb and drop out every time, you are now into the fun part. BUT first, mark or otherwise record the current settings. Try varying the magnet positioning (top & bottom spacing, position up and down the ramp and vertical centre to centre) to margin your ramp. Vary all the adjustemnts to find the edges where the effect stops. Try this on all the adjustments until you can set the adjustments to optimal (IE in the middle). This margining is necessary to gain a good understanding of ramp characteristics as we will need to vary some of the adjustments when we get into linking 4 or more ramps in Phase 2. This margining is necessary to gain a good understanding of ramp characteristics as we will need to vary some of the adjustments when we get into linking 4 or more ramps in Phase 2. Meanwhile enjoy, experiment and record your results. Please feel free to discuss your problems. If you can post photos, so much the better. Over to you. ---------------------------- Best Regards and Good Luck in CONSTRUCTION Greg --------------5CE7549A6DC6 Content-Type: image/gif; name="smot1a-1.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="smot1a-1.gif" R0lGODdhLwJdAecAAAAAAAEBAQICAgMDAwQEBAUFBQYGBgcHBwgICAkJCQoKCgsLCwwMDA0N DQ4ODg8PDxAQEBERERISEhMTExQUFBUVFRYWFhcXFxgYGBkZGRoaGhsbGxwcHB0dHR4eHh8f HyAgICEhISIiIiMjIyQkJCUlJSYmJicnJygoKCkpKSoqKisrKywsLC0tLS4uLi8vLzAwMDEx MTIyMjMzMzQ0NDU1NTY2Njc3Nzg4ODk5OTo6Ojs7Ozw8PD09PT4+Pj8/P0BAQEFBQUJCQkND Q0REREVFRUZGRkdHR0hISElJSUpKSktLS0xMTE1NTU5OTk9PT1BQUFFRUVJSUlNTU1RUVFVV VVZWVldXV1hYWFlZWVpaWltbW1xcXF1dXV5eXl9fX2BgYGFhYWJiYmNjY2RkZGVlZWZmZmdn Z2hoaGlpaWpqamtra2xsbG1tbW5ubm9vb3BwcHFxcXJycnNzc3R0dHV1dXZ2dnd3d3h4eHl5 eXp6ent7e3x8fH19fX5+fn9/f4CAgIGBgYKCgoODg4SEhIWFhYaGhoeHh4iIiImJiYqKiouL i4yMjI2NjY6Ojo+Pj5CQkJGRkZKSkpOTk5SUlJWVlZaWlpeXl5iYmJmZmZqampubm5ycnJ2d nZ6enp+fn6CgoKGhoaKioqOjo6SkpKWlpaampqenp6ioqKmpqaqqqqurq6ysrK2tra6urq+v 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vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 01:41:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA03407; Sun, 25 May 1997 01:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3387F2A8.4B3D microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:34:56 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT Phase 1 Plans (Part 3) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------34A8CF73248" Resent-Message-ID: <"bxXUt.0.6r.yQ_Xp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------34A8CF73248 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Here are some 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(Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Magnet Selection, Simple Magnetic Ou Toy (SMOT) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2F89636E2921" Resent-Message-ID: <"YVq6x1.0.VG3.1Q2Yp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2F89636E2921 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I thought I should comment here on the selection of magnets to build up the side arrays. The height of the magnets MUST be less than the lift otherwise you will not be able to get the ramps to link. The ramp shown by Jean-Louis will not be able to link as the height of the magnets is MUCH greater than the lift. My design is based on a 12mm lift as this is the height of the Alum "U" channel. My magnet height is 10mm and therefore the magnet arrays from two linking ramps can fit one under the other. I have attached a updated Gif showing why this is important. The SMOT ramp design did not just happen. Be carefull to change it too much. There are elements in the design which are based on MUCH pain and experience. I decided to use small magnets to build up the magnet arrays as this was the only way I could see to easily obtain the magnet array shape that I needed, very wide, long and low. Magnets like that are not easy to find in one block. Try to keep to the 104mm magnet array length as the 90mm ramp length is based on this. I encourage you to experiment, but first build a unit like the plans and then try your own design. Just remember, whatever you build, you must be able to link 3-4 units in Phase 2. 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75U6XtlkfvodnuaOsmeWtf+ZqOxyqDgqWAu4XC0DqfZWSYcHMRKlhuuWalh0m6bCh3wiMKUE eNH3L6FmKX46hAdHRjc5gxxUpNBnUQg3SnrXUhaVfq0GaklEqE+HhD6Yq4vafJAKjFc3JsX6 lChWQ6zKUsUUnd65hbTGndIajukpabe0bbN5oVRGhJgmiMnSKfnJXbsYe5qygqT6gcKXrDU1 quoKIW4ngsCKfaQncfMaZtxqhZKGUdFEbp0HU0MkQs5Kg/Zmg8hWg1qEfvqmlkOpKLJHcOP2 d3iXr6lTFgP3ee20iG0IZB0Ygpi3qC8qLuz6aM7jIy5Zrc82sih7i4qmobC4spTVq8DXHXMK s0P6KUKxZHzIB0v9snfZabNEJLApUyly5FC2Cq5Am7RKu7RM27RO+7RQG7VSO7Wns4fHmjWp Gq5aK6J6erVzyLFs6m0KFqQqK7J9In+XZyy7tm5k57MYS2wq6Kx25mvyVIEeC1Bu930fSHxw yEZ0+3Zil2hsm7UBx7c3ma73CrD4OrftNqvs5q76gm8PhbDB+riV63cTRXEpVG51NEdtVLbh MjBypKCBMmoLZX4Fm7OUpnlqybneVrq0ii+A8ro/M23xp2qd20p5RrV9dafyqaLcSrG8O5DY hob1WIvDm7zKu7zM27zO+7zQG73SO73UW73We73Ym73am70BAQA7 --------------2F89636E2921-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 07:26:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA12415; Sun, 25 May 1997 07:20:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 07:20:14 -0700 Date: 25 May 97 10:18:58 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy Message-ID: <970525141857_100433.1541_BHG81-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"vFt-D3.0.v13.Tg4Yp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg, > The single SMOT ramp is not clearly OU. You will need to finish > the Phase 4 device for that. But the ramp sure makes you think. > > Have you built yours yet? No, I haven't. That doesn't mean I'm negative about what you are doing. In fact if there were not the large crowds that there are, working on it, I might well be tempted. Since so many are working on it, I think I can afford to wait and see what happens. This is in fact truly weird, and could never really happen without the 'net. We have you in Oz, being apparently very sane and reasonable about all this, yet claiming that you have a magnetic O-U device. Two, in fact - this 'toy' and the rotary one. "Sane and reasonable" is not something we see much of (on either side) in discussions of O-U magnetic or electrical devices. The inventor is usually bonkers and clutches his gizmo to his bosom, fearful that someone will (a) prove it's nonsense, (b) steal his ideas and improve on them, (c) that the dreaded oil companies or the Men in Black will assassinate him, (d)... & (e)... you can fill in yourself. Couple this with the fact that nowhere have I seen these machines fully described, or secure test results on them, you will understand my scepticism. But ... well, you don't seem even to hanker after the Nobel (not that they'd give you one anyway, those are for Proper Scientists, not "lucky tinkerers" like the Wrights). Nor do you seem to have gone demented with the prospect of $$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!! - so I can only conclude that (a) this is all a seriously impressive leg-pull, or (b) you've found something very "interesting" indeed. I can't agree with whoever it was said that if it stops after a few hours then it can't be O-U. I doubt that a rolling-ball device could easily be made which would keep running for more than a few minutes without energy input. Jean-Louis' web site is clear and most helpful. I thought that the Logajan and Ucar comments were (as usual) most interesting and helpful. I can't see how the device could be getting energy by demagnetising the fridge magnets - or whether it could get any useful energy if it was doing that. If others confirm your findings, I will certainly build one of these. If that happens and mine works too, maybe you would be willing to write a piece for our little rag? Strange - this international stuff... Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 11:19:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA09155; Sun, 25 May 1997 11:09:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:09:41 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:09:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970525140901_270816989 emout14.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com cc: gwatson microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re : Magnet Selection, Simple Magnetic Ou Toy (SMOT) Resent-Message-ID: <"-hH-Q1.0.qE2.Z18Yp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 25/05/1997 13:02:51 , Greg Watson wrote : << Hi All, I thought I should comment here on the selection of magnets to build up the side arrays. The height of the magnets MUST be less than the lift otherwise you will not be able to get the ramps to link. The ramp shown by Jean-Louis will not be able to link as the height of the magnets is MUCH greater than the lift. My design is based on a 12mm lift as this is the height of the Alum "U" channel. My magnet height is 10mm and therefore the magnet arrays from two linking ramps can fit one under the other. >> Hi agree with you, Greg. Today, I rebuild a new ramp with your setup. I have already added your very important comment in my web server. Thanks for your help... :-) Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 12:49:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA23313; Sun, 25 May 1997 12:40:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:40:52 -0700 Message-ID: <33889744.2449 skypoint.com> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:47:16 -0500 From: John Logajan Organization: Skypoint Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy References: <970525141857_100433.1541_BHG81-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Wn0OM.0.Bi5.2N9Yp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > I can't see how the device could be getting energy by demagnetising the > fridge magnets - or whether it could get any useful energy if it was > doing that. If we accept that the ball makes it through the loop 1.001+ times (i.e. > 1.0) then getting energy from the magnets by weakening them becomes the first explanation to explore. In fact, right off hand, alternate "non-anomalous" explanations do not leap to mind. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 12:53:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA22529; Sun, 25 May 1997 12:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338894F7.40B1 skypoint.com> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:37:27 -0500 From: John Logajan Organization: Skypoint Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MY HAT'S OFF! References: <33879BCD.54FE interlaced.net> <3387C6CB.1F69@skypoint.com> <3387D3D8.3EBF@microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8u54i.0.xV5.jE9Yp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > The SMOT ramp as designed was not intended to be a class 3 ramp (Roll > away). That's tricky to build and adjust. That's a mouth full! :-) I would say that if anyone could get a single ramp device to have the ball (from a dead start) exit the ramp to a point a distance of, say, the length of the ramp again, while remaining above or equal to the start height, then anomalous behavior is indicated. A shorter roll distance would actually be all the would be required since the magnetic field is unlikely to be horizontally symmetrical. But it would be hard to say where that point exactly is, and so, taking the asymmetrical assumption alone, then getting the same distance away at the same or greater height pretty much proves the anomalous nature. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 14:04:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA27969; Sun, 25 May 1997 13:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:26:52 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Non anomaly In-Reply-To: <33889744.2449 skypoint.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Mxm721.0.wq6.Q6AYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Comments: > Chris Tinsley wrote: > > I can't see how the device could be getting energy by demagnetising the > > fridge magnets - or whether it could get any useful energy if it was > > doing that. For the sake of discussion, which is limited in scope the term "fridge magnets" will be discarded. Instead we will use ferrite as the term. Please look at the properties of these types of magnets. Briefly; rather large linear behavior as opposed to RE magnets in general. Moderate resistancce to demagnetization, more resistance is found in alnico alloys, and still more in Re types, but curves are different. > If we accept that the ball makes it through the loop 1.001+ times > (i.e. > 1.0) then getting energy from the magnets by weakening them > becomes the first explanation to explore. Practical experience proven over years of actual application teaches in loudspeakers and small motors the ferrite magnet does no become demagnetised at low and moderate varying and reverse fields. Who of the readers knows of a loudspeaker or a small toy motor failing through demagnetisation under normal design useage? Use motor or speaker to feel developed force and compare this to the force encountered with Watson design. In general a magnet can exhibit longer life if shunted. Watson steel ball acts as mild ... very mild .. shunt. The design life of the magnets would then fall within the range of open to slightly shunted. In one model of permanent magnets the domains, as they are called, embody "current loops". All of the current loops within a domain are aligned the same way. If a statistical percentage of the domains become more or less aligned in the same direction, say 10 percent of them, then the bulk permanent magnet effect obtains. If used within the design guide for that particular material then very few of the domains, often less than 1 or 2 percents, become randomized. In general it is not thought, under normal use, the current loops themselves become 'worn out'. Doamin walls may move, domain orientation may change, but the current loops do not. NOTE: The whole sttudy of magnetic materials is non-trivial. Please become familiar with the basics. Then, if you wish to exploit magnetic circuit for ANY application, read and study not only texts on theory of behavior but also texts and manufacturers' literature on actual design practice. John Herman Schnurer > In fact, right off hand, alternate "non-anomalous" explanations do > not leap to mind. > > > -- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 14:25:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA04012; Sun, 25 May 1997 14:16:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:16:41 -0700 Message-ID: <3388AC5E.B09 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:17:18 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy References: <970525141857_100433.1541_BHG81-1 CompuServe.COM> <33889744.2449@skypoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XCbsP3.0.Y-.umAYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > (snip) > > In fact, right off hand, alternate "non-anomalous" explanations do > not leap to mind. > Indeed, John! It's not like there is not decades of experience with PM motors to assure that the state of the magnets is not being changed by the benign treatment in a Watson ramp. Perhaps some type of energy "conduit" or catalyst? It's too early, but if a loop of 4 of Greg's ramps runs for "hours" - broadcasting sound energy; heating the ball, track, and air from friction; inducing eddy currents in nearby conductors - I think its time to look for new physics! With multiple reproductions will come multiple puzzled faces. Maybe Greg's biggest problem is being haunted by every dead physicist from the planet's past! Waiting for the last ball to drop - Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 14:54:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA07341; Sun, 25 May 1997 14:45:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:45:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3388AE81.3249 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 06:56:25 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy References: <970525141857_100433.1541_BHG81-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ePx_e.0.Uo1.LCBYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > Greg, > > > The single SMOT ramp is not clearly OU. You will need to finish > > the Phase 4 device for that. But the ramp sure makes you think. > > > > Have you built yours yet? > > No, I haven't. That doesn't mean I'm negative about what you are doing. > In fact if there were not the large crowds that there are, working on > it, I might well be tempted. Since so many are working on it, I think > I can afford to wait and see what happens. > > This is in fact truly weird, and could never really happen without the > 'net. We have you in Oz, being apparently very sane and reasonable > about all this, yet claiming that you have a magnetic O-U device. Two, > in fact - this 'toy' and the rotary one. "Sane and reasonable" is not > something we see much of (on either side) in discussions of O-U magnetic > or electrical devices. The inventor is usually bonkers and clutches his > gizmo to his bosom, fearful that someone will (a) prove it's nonsense, > (b) steal his ideas and improve on them, (c) that the dreaded oil > companies or the Men in Black will assassinate him, (d)... & (e)... you > can fill in yourself. Couple this with the fact that nowhere have I > seen these machines fully described, or secure test results on them, you > will understand my scepticism. That's why I am here. > But ... well, you don't seem even to hanker after the Nobel (not that > they'd give you one anyway, those are for Proper Scientists, not "lucky > tinkerers" like the Wrights). Nor do you seem to have gone demented > with the prospect of $$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!! - so I can only conclude that > (a) this is all a seriously impressive leg-pull, or (b) you've found > something very "interesting" indeed. I, and many others have found something. I think the difference is my approach. I am willing to gamble on the future and in the basic "Good Nature" of people. I basically believe if you trust people, the trust will come back. Sort of like Love. > I can't agree with whoever it was said that if it stops after a few > hours then it can't be O-U. I doubt that a rolling-ball device could > easily be made which would keep running for more than a few minutes > without energy input. Very right. Build a device, is really very simple and quick. When YOU see for yourself that the ball is not pulled back up the exit ramp by the same forces that pulled it up the ramp, the light comes on. When, in Phase 2, we link 3-4 ramps and YOU SEE there is no reduction in speed as the ball goes from ramp to ramp, YOU will really know whene we are going. > Jean-Louis' web site is clear and most helpful. I am glad Jean-Louis has helped. > I thought that the Logajan and Ucar comments were (as usual) most > interesting and helpful. I can't see how the device could be getting > energy by demagnetising the fridge magnets - or whether it could get > any useful energy if it was doing that. Neither can I. NONE of my testing has shown the magnets loosing strength! > If others confirm your findings, I will certainly build one of these. > If that happens and mine works too, maybe you would be willing to write > a piece for our little rag? OK, what's the publication? > Strange - this international stuff... > > Chris Hi Chris, The devices really work. This time the SMOT evidence will change things. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 15:12:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA10279; Sun, 25 May 1997 15:07:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:07:06 -0700 Date: 25 May 97 18:04:42 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy Message-ID: <970525220442_100433.1541_BHG62-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"DHlXi.0.XW2.9WBYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John, > If we accept that the ball makes it through the loop 1.001+ times > (i.e. > 1.0) then getting energy from the magnets by weakening > them becomes the first explanation to explore. I really should re-familiarise myself with all this stuff. But, as I recall, the only difference between 'hard' ferromagnetic material which is a magnet and the same material which is not, is that the 'domains' in one case are aligned while in the other they are randomly oriented. I don't see (1) a lot of energy, if any, becoming available in the transition, and (2) I can't off-hand think of one example of such a mechanism being available to provide energy, or (3) of a simple machine like Greg's which dis-aligns 'hard' materials in this way. So, while I take your point, I would prefer to assume that this is all a big mistake or joke - unless or until others report the same effect. Queer business, though. Greg is impressive in his writings. And it is true that rumours of such devices are indeed rife. I just don't know, at this stage, what to make of it. But - odd though it may seem - I'm reluctant to accept as explanations the "quasi-conventional" ideas such as the one you suggest. They sound more like "explainings away" rather than probable explanations. I can't help being reminded of a time of s.p.f where Frank Close suggested that CF energy came from storage of energy in the 'deep' electrons nearest the nucleus. Of course, having proposed this startling new energy storage system, he was not interested in studying it - I'd have thought such a discovery worth a few Nobels any year. > In fact, right off hand, alternate "non-anomalous" explanations do > not leap to mind. Nor to mine. I think that either we are missing something obvious, or Greg is pulling our leg, or his beastie is "interesting". Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 15:19:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA11911; Sun, 25 May 1997 15:14:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:14:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3388B5D3.6A8D microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:27:39 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork References: <01BC6906.992B4000 bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ugx622.0.jv2.ucBYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hawkeye wrote: > > I would like to know what the EMF looks like on Watson's device. Does it change with the movement of the ball? Would an EMF picture, or video give us further insite? And if what we are doing now does do into the history books I would like at least one s entence about me. Hi Hawkeye, Don't understand your request. I will post a series of mag field sims on the ramp. It that what you wanted? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 15:20:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA12016; Sun, 25 May 1997 15:14:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:14:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3388B959.3273 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:42:41 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnet Selection, Simple Magnetic Ou Toy (SMOT) References: <33882493.64CB microtronics.com.au> <3388AC17.1CE9@ro.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HmkIN1.0.dx2.2dBYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Patrick Reavis wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > I decided to use small magnets to build up the magnet arrays as this was > > the only way I could see to easily obtain the magnet array shape that I > > needed, very wide, long and low. Magnets like that are not easy to find > > in one block. > > > > Try to keep to the 104mm magnet array length as the 90mm ramp length is > > based on this. > > > > I encourage you to experiment, but first build a unit like the plans and > > then try your own design. > > > > Just remember, whatever you build, you must be able to link 3-4 units in > > Phase 2. > > > > Best Regards, > > Greg > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Mr. Watson, Greg is ok. > Have you considered strip magnets? ( the type used to secure > advertisement signs to cars and trucks)? The ones I have played with are too weak by a factor of 2-4. > Any sign painting/manufacturing company should be able to advise you on > where to purchase it. I've > seen it in rolls several feet long and a few inches wide. Good luck with > your design. Most fridge magnet suppliers can alsp source the material. But its too weak. > Patrick Reavis > > -- > The Double Naught Spy > http://ro.com/~preavis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 15:23:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA13958; Sun, 25 May 1997 15:19:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:19:59 -0700 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:16:32 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Non anomaly (Re: SMOT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970525150058.00abce0c mail.localaccess.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"PsROX.0.yP3.DiBYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Who is perfect? Not me! BTW CRC list Alnico XII as 1,000 isotropic. It is a wonderful world! In any event the behavior curves are all differnt, and it is fun! On Sun, 25 May 1997, Epitaxy wrote: > > Wrong. > > The ceramic ferrite "refrigerator magnets" (BaFe2O3 or SrFe2O3) are MUCH > LESS susceptible to demagnetization than AlNiCo magnets. I am listing the > intrinsic coercivity force (demagnetizing force) for different magnetic > materials (in Oersteds) > > > Material Grade Demagnet Curie BH-Strength > > NdFeB g39 - 21,300 150 40 > SmCo g26 - 10,000 300 26 > AlNiCo g05 - 640 540 5.5 > Ceramic g08 - 3,200 300 3.5 > Flexible g01 - 1,300 100 0.6 > > > Grade = Material quality grade (alloy type ie. ALNICO 5) > Demagnet = Demagnetizing force in Oersteds > Curie = Curie Temperature in Degrees Celsius > BH-Strength = Maximum Energy Product in Mega Gauss Oersteds (MGO) > > > The above clearly shows that AlNiCo is THE EASIEST to demagnetize. However > AlNiCo has the highest Curie temperature of them all - 540degC. The > Neodymium (NdFeB) magnets are the strongest (ie. they have the highest > energy product) > > Also the statement "...a magnet can exhibit longer life if shunted..." IS > MISLEADING. A ferromagnetic shunt between the poles (on let's say > horseshoe magnet) ONLY decreases the magnet to an EXPOSURE to demagnetizing > fields above the critical value. This shunt ONLY acts as a protection or a > shield and doesn't prolong the magnetization of a magnet in the strictest > sense. > > Theoretically a permanent magnet not exposed to a demagnetizing force above > the critical value (listed above) or temperature above the Curie point or > mechanical shock above a critical (g) value, WILL STAY MAGNETIZED FOREVER. > > Please remember that the demagnetizing force MUST oppose the magnetization > polarity of a permanent magnet in order to do ANY "damage". This means S-S > or N-N (ie. Repelling mode) is necessary to demagnetize a permanent magnet. > > *** In Greg's SMOT the magnets are in the ATTRACTING mode, so they are NOT > subjected to any demagnetizing forces from each other !!!. *** > > > > At 04:26 PM 5/25/97 -0400, you wrote: > > Briefly; rather large linear behavior as opposed to RE magnets > >in general. Moderate resistancce to demagnetization, more resistance is > >found in alnico alloys, and still more in Re types, but curves are different. > > > >>> > > In general a magnet can exhibit longer life if shunted. Watson > >steel ball acts as mild ... very mild .. shunt. > > The design life of the magnets would then fall within the range > >of open to slightly shunted. > > > > John Herman Schnurer > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 15:25:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA07923; Sun, 25 May 1997 15:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970525150058.00abce0c mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:01:00 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: Non anomaly (Re: SMOT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"J6qqN3.0.hx1.SRBYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wrong. The ceramic ferrite "refrigerator magnets" (BaFe2O3 or SrFe2O3) are MUCH LESS susceptible to demagnetization than AlNiCo magnets. I am listing the intrinsic coercivity force (demagnetizing force) for different magnetic materials (in Oersteds) Material Grade Demagnet Curie BH-Strength NdFeB g39 - 21,300 150 40 SmCo g26 - 10,000 300 26 AlNiCo g05 - 640 540 5.5 Ceramic g08 - 3,200 300 3.5 Flexible g01 - 1,300 100 0.6 Grade = Material quality grade (alloy type ie. ALNICO 5) Demagnet = Demagnetizing force in Oersteds Curie = Curie Temperature in Degrees Celsius BH-Strength = Maximum Energy Product in Mega Gauss Oersteds (MGO) The above clearly shows that AlNiCo is THE EASIEST to demagnetize. However AlNiCo has the highest Curie temperature of them all - 540degC. The Neodymium (NdFeB) magnets are the strongest (ie. they have the highest energy product) Also the statement "...a magnet can exhibit longer life if shunted..." IS MISLEADING. A ferromagnetic shunt between the poles (on let's say horseshoe magnet) ONLY decreases the magnet to an EXPOSURE to demagnetizing fields above the critical value. This shunt ONLY acts as a protection or a shield and doesn't prolong the magnetization of a magnet in the strictest sense. Theoretically a permanent magnet not exposed to a demagnetizing force above the critical value (listed above) or temperature above the Curie point or mechanical shock above a critical (g) value, WILL STAY MAGNETIZED FOREVER. Please remember that the demagnetizing force MUST oppose the magnetization polarity of a permanent magnet in order to do ANY "damage". This means S-S or N-N (ie. Repelling mode) is necessary to demagnetize a permanent magnet. *** In Greg's SMOT the magnets are in the ATTRACTING mode, so they are NOT subjected to any demagnetizing forces from each other !!!. *** At 04:26 PM 5/25/97 -0400, you wrote: > Briefly; rather large linear behavior as opposed to RE magnets >in general. Moderate resistancce to demagnetization, more resistance is >found in alnico alloys, and still more in Re types, but curves are different. > >>> > In general a magnet can exhibit longer life if shunted. Watson >steel ball acts as mild ... very mild .. shunt. > The design life of the magnets would then fall within the range >of open to slightly shunted. > > John Herman Schnurer > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 15:25:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA11936; Sun, 25 May 1997 15:14:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:14:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3388B83B.6245 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:37:55 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT References: <33889380.3D82 gorge.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"r-Gji3.0.Cw2.vcBYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tom Miller wrote: > > Thank you for all the information you are giving us over > the internet. My pleasure, Tom. > Since it is not feasible for me to build even the simple > device, for now, I have been trying to "build" it in my > mind--a mental experiment. > > It would be helpful to me, and maybe a lot of others, > if you would publish some quickfield gifs of the > fields around the blocks of magnets. For instance: > > 1. Does the field on the inside face of each > array of magnets curve back into the end of each > small individual magnet? They function as a single large block. > 2. It "looks" like the ends of the little magnets > are "staggered." That is, the end of one set of > four (stacked vertically) seems to NOT be directly > across the track from the end of its counterpart. > (in the picture). Is this important? Yhe up and down the ramp alignment is not critical. The side arrays can be several mm out of alignment without causing any problems. Big misalignment at the top can cause the ball to be sucked sideways to one of the arrays causing exit problems. > 3. A series of shots showing how the fields of the > PMs interact with the steel ball, and what the field > inside the ball looks like (at various stages up the > ramp) would be very useful. Under way NOW. > 4. The most important place, though, must be the EXIT. > a side, and end, view of the fields here would be most > enlightening. Would one small magnet, strategically > placed, help the ball to move out of the fields of the > magnet sets, (assisting gravity) but not be strong enough > to hold the ball back, against gravity? No need. Properly built and adjusted, the SMOT device will exit every time! > Tom Miller Hi Tom, Maybe you and a friend could team up to build a SMOT. Ther are really VERY simple and easy to make. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 15:30:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA09292; Sun, 25 May 1997 15:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970525150934.00ac1cc4 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:09:35 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: AntiG Correlation (Re: SMOT or RMOT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"p0OSW2.0.6H2.ZZBYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Although the source of energy for the SMOT or RMOT devices is not the primary point of attention at this time. Please notice the following correlation. 1) The experiment (described on Vortex) where a thin vertical sheet of bismuth between two magnets looses weight when it is on the neutral line between two magnets. 2) The free fall experiments by Donald A. Kelly where an increased fall time is observed in response to opposed magnetic fields. 3) The rumors that bifilar coils loose weight and inertia under microwave stimulation All of this examples involve a material on the "neutral line" loosing inertial mass or gravitational weight. *** Perhaps this small weight decrease is the effect that enables the OU toy to operate, because the ball is LIGHTER when the ramp pulls it up compared to when it exits and falls down. *** Of course the electron (and/or nucleus) ground state ZPE regeneration is still a plausible explanation for the source of energy as well as thermal negative-entropy, vibration rectification, chemical bond energy of the ferrite or PMs, remanent ferrite magnetization, etc... How big do you draw the "energy box"... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 15:33:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA16268; Sun, 25 May 1997 15:29:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:29:09 -0700 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:25:47 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Greg Watson cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Strip magnets In-Reply-To: <3388B959.3273 microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Z83hs1.0.6-3.qqBYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Flexible strip magnets should be mapped with sheet of paper and iron grains..... many are magnetised as a series of N-S stipes. J On Mon, 26 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > Patrick Reavis wrote: > > > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > > > I decided to use small magnets to build up the magnet arrays as this was > > > the only way I could see to easily obtain the magnet array shape that I > > > needed, very wide, long and low. Magnets like that are not easy to find > > > in one block. > > > > > > Try to keep to the 104mm magnet array length as the 90mm ramp length is > > > based on this. > > > > > > I encourage you to experiment, but first build a unit like the plans and > > > then try your own design. > > > > > > Just remember, whatever you build, you must be able to link 3-4 units in > > > Phase 2. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > Greg > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Mr. Watson, > > Greg is ok. > > > Have you considered strip magnets? ( the type used to secure > > advertisement signs to cars and trucks)? > > The ones I have played with are too weak by a factor of 2-4. > > > Any sign painting/manufacturing company should be able to advise you on > > where to purchase it. I've > > seen it in rolls several feet long and a few inches wide. Good luck with > > your design. > > Most fridge magnet suppliers can alsp source the material. But its too > weak. > > > Patrick Reavis > > > > -- > > The Double Naught Spy > > http://ro.com/~preavis > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 15:34:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA09257; Sun, 25 May 1997 15:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3388B49F.7DB9 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:22:31 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gary's Neutral Line References: <25554942.113418005 compcafe.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"20qzU.0.HG2.LZBYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Geoff Greaves wrote: > > Can anyone tell me whether the neutral line is apparently: > > 1) infinitely thin, the iron bar changing polarity as its centre moves across > it or > > 2) infinitely thin with the iron bar being N-S on the side nearest the magnet > and S-N on the side away from the magnet at the same moment or > > 3) does it have thickness changing with the dimensions of the iron bar? > > Thanks. > > ---------------------------------------- > >From Geoff Greaves: geoff compcafe.co.uk > ---------------------------------------- Hi Geoff. The Neutral Line actually doesn't exist. It is a place between the magnet arrays where the side to side magnetic attractive forces are balanced and the ball only feels the magnetic attractive forces up the ramp. The "U" channel helps the ball to stay, sort of, on the line. Slight misadjustments are allowed as the ball must move up before it moves sideways. The better the balance, the better the SMOT device works as small unbalanced sideways forces will produce increasing frictional losses. Awaiting your test results. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 15:35:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA16881; Sun, 25 May 1997 15:32:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:32:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3388BD89.4004 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:00:33 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy References: <970525220442_100433.1541_BHG62-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7rG961.0.h74.itBYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > John, > > > If we accept that the ball makes it through the loop 1.001+ times > > (i.e. > 1.0) then getting energy from the magnets by weakening > > them becomes the first explanation to explore. > > I really should re-familiarise myself with all this stuff. But, as I > recall, the only difference between 'hard' ferromagnetic material which > is a magnet and the same material which is not, is that the 'domains' > in one case are aligned while in the other they are randomly oriented. > > I don't see (1) a lot of energy, if any, becoming available in the transition, > and (2) I can't off-hand think of one example of such a > mechanism being available to provide energy, or (3) of a simple machine > like Greg's which dis-aligns 'hard' materials in this way. > > So, while I take your point, I would prefer to assume that this is all > a big mistake or joke - unless or until others report the same effect. > > Queer business, though. Greg is impressive in his writings. And it is > true that rumours of such devices are indeed rife. I just don't know, > at this stage, what to make of it. But - odd though it may seem - I'm > reluctant to accept as explanations the "quasi-conventional" ideas such > as the one you suggest. They sound more like "explainings away" rather > than probable explanations. > > I can't help being reminded of a time of s.p.f where Frank Close > suggested that CF energy came from storage of energy in the 'deep' > electrons nearest the nucleus. Of course, having proposed this > startling new energy storage system, he was not interested in studying > it - I'd have thought such a discovery worth a few Nobels any year. > > > In fact, right off hand, alternate "non-anomalous" explanations do > > not leap to mind. > > Nor to mine. I think that either we are missing something obvious, or > Greg is pulling our leg, or his beastie is "interesting". > > Chris Hi Chris, Build a SMOT ramp (Phase 1), then build 3 more and link them together in Phase 4. See the ball transit through them without slowing down. Hear the frictional losses at work. Wonder at where the device gets its energy from. Look at the patent list I have posted before. BUT just BUILD a unit, play with it, SEE it work and then tell me I am pulling your leg. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 15:38:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA17967; Sun, 25 May 1997 15:33:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:33:38 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970525153256.00abc170 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:33:00 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Warning: Flexible Strip Magnets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rJYww1.0.bO4.1vBYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: WARNING: The flexible strip magnets are TOTALLY unsuitable for Simple OU toy. They are polarized with south and north poles ON THE SAME SIDE. (ie. SNSNSNSNSNSN like this...). They are used to hold objects down and this pole configuration is much more efficient than one pole on one side and an opposite pole on another side of the strip. Many of the sheet magnets have up to 10 poles per square inch !!! The flexible magnets are also very weak. Compare in the chart below: Material Grade Demagnet Curie BH-Strength NdFeB g39 - 21,300 150 40 SmCo g26 - 10,000 300 26 AlNiCo g05 - 640 540 5.5 Ceramic g08 - 3,200 300 3.5 Flexible g01 - 1,300 100 0.6 Grade = Material quality grade (alloy type ie. ALNICO 5) Demagnet = Demagnetizing force in Oersteds Curie = Curie Temperature in Degrees Celsius BH-Strength = Maximum Energy Product in Mega Gauss Oersteds (MGO) The above clearly shows that AlNiCo is THE EASIEST to demagnetize. However AlNiCo has the highest Curie temperature of them all - 540degC. The Neodymium (NdFeB) magnets are the strongest (ie. they have the highest energy product). Flexible magnets are the weakest. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 15:43:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA10146; Sun, 25 May 1997 15:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3388BA0B.619 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:45:39 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MY HAT'S OFF! References: <33879BCD.54FE interlaced.net> <3387C6CB.1F69@skypoint.com> <3387D3D8.3EBF@microtronics.com.au> <338894F7.40B1@skypoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7awAA2.0.AU2.kgBYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > The SMOT ramp as designed was not intended to be a class 3 ramp (Roll > > away). That's tricky to build and adjust. > > That's a mouth full! :-) > > I would say that if anyone could get a single ramp device to have the > ball (from a dead start) exit the ramp to a point a distance of, say, > the length of the ramp again, while remaining above or equal to the > start height, then anomalous behavior is indicated. I have done that. Others have also confirmed this. > A shorter roll distance would actually be all the would be required > since the magnetic field is unlikely to be horizontally symmetrical. > But it would be hard to say where that point exactly is, and so, > taking the asymmetrical assumption alone, then getting the same > distance away at the same or greater height pretty much proves > the anomalous nature. > > -- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - Hi John, How about 4 linked ramps with the ball moving through them and NOT slowing down? Think about all that frictional loss. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 15:47:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA12023; Sun, 25 May 1997 15:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:22:12 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy In-Reply-To: <970525220442_100433.1541_BHG62-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"qJC3R3.0.lx2.xoBYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Folks, Please see notes in body of letter. The discussion and my comments are general and broad, this is a big field [ha!]. On 25 May 1997, Chris Tinsley wrote: > John, > > > If we accept that the ball makes it through the loop 1.001+ times > > (i.e. > 1.0) then getting energy from the magnets by weakening > > them becomes the first explanation to explore. > > I really should re-familiarise myself with all this stuff. But, as I > recall, the only difference between 'hard' ferromagnetic material which > is a magnet and the same material which is not, is that the 'domains' > in one case are aligned while in the other they are randomly oriented. > In some materials the domains become randomaized after remaval of external field [soft] and in some the domains can tend to stay in alignment [hard]. > I don't see (1) a lot of energy, if any, becoming available in the transition, > and (2) I can't off-hand think of one example of such a > mechanism being available to provide energy, or (3) of a simple machine > like Greg's which dis-aligns 'hard' materials in this way. > > So, while I take your point, I would prefer to assume that this is all > a big mistake or joke - unless or until others report the same effect. > > Queer business, though. Greg is impressive in his writings. And it is > true that rumours of such devices are indeed rife. I just don't know, > at this stage, what to make of it. But - odd though it may seem - I'm > reluctant to accept as explanations the "quasi-conventional" ideas such > as the one you suggest. They sound more like "explainings away" rather > than probable explanations. I am not 'explaining away' anything, just trying to get people to read up, look at the models and so on. > > I can't help being reminded of a time of s.p.f where Frank Close > suggested that CF energy came from storage of energy in the 'deep' > electrons nearest the nucleus. Of course, having proposed this > startling new energy storage system, he was not interested in studying > it - I'd have thought such a discovery worth a few Nobels any year. > > > In fact, right off hand, alternate "non-anomalous" explanations do > > not leap to mind. > > Nor to mine. I think that either we are missing something obvious, or > Greg is pulling our leg, or his beastie is "interesting". > > Chris > > John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 16:15:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA13968; Sun, 25 May 1997 15:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3388C0A9.16E0 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:13:53 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnets for simple OU Toy References: <01BC682B.73268D00 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> <33878C87.61E0@ix.netcom.com> <3387CF6A.763C@microtronics.com.au> <3388646C.6EAE@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mtpaN3.0.3Q3.95CYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dave DeLeo wrote: > > I would like use the same size magnets so I can stick to the plans > throughout the other phases. I am going to go out and search for > magnets at least close to the right size today. If I can't find any > would it be possible for you to pick them up at your supplier and mail > them to me? I'll send you a check or money order (whatever you prefer) > to cover the magnets and shipping costs. By the way about what would > shipping costs and travel time be to ship between AU and US? I figured > I'll need about 800 or so. 64 X 4 for the straight phase 2 ramps and I > think you said there were 8 curved ramps in phase 4, I'm assuming they > use 9X4 mag arrays also. So that's 8X64. I figure if I superglue the > straight assemblys together I'm not going to be able to reuse them for > the curved ones. so I need 12 ramps at 64 mags apiece for a total of > 768 round that to 800..... > > Hopefully I'll be able to find something localy.... > Dave DeLeo > ddeleo ix.netcom.com Hi Dave, Use strong tape on both sides of the arrays to hold them together. I have posted a corro about this. You can them re-use the magnets later. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 17:09:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA21015 for billb@eskimo.com; Sun, 25 May 1997 17:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:09:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: harti bbtt.de Sun May 25 17:09:39 1997 Received: from mail.bbtt.com ([193.203.161.7]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA20948; Sun, 25 May 1997 17:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.bbtt.de ([193.203.161.94]) by mail.bbtt.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA18545; Mon, 26 May 1997 02:12:26 +0200 Old-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:12:26 +0200 Message-Id: <199705260012.CAA18545 mail.bbtt.com> X-Sender: harti shell2.ba.best.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: harti bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann) Subject: Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: At 07:27 26.05.1997 +0930, gwatson microtronics.com.au wrote: >Hawkeye wrote: >> >> I would like to know what the EMF looks like on Watson's device. Does it change with the movement of the ball? Would an EMF picture, or video give us further insite? And if what we are doing now does do into the history books I would like at least one sentence about me. > >Hi Hawkeye, > >Don't understand your request. > >I will post a series of mag field sims on the ramp. > >It that what you wanted? > He probably means, what I was suggesting a while ago. Put some coils around a few PM magnets of your SMOT and put a scope to these coils and look, if the moving ball induces some voltage (EMF) inside these coils ! The waveform of this EMF would be interesting to study ! Regards, Stefan. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany http://www.harti.com Webmaster of: www.detours.de www.overunity.de www.berlin-city.com email: harti harti.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 17:19:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA20199; Sun, 25 May 1997 17:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3388BFB7.B3D5D607 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:39:51 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: MY HAT'S OFF! X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lezkY2.0.Xx4.6ADYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: >Have you started building your Phase 1 SMOT device yet? No, not yet. Because my two assistant cats had kidnapped my mouse ball and made their own OU experiments! Actually, I will try to get the needed materials today. Regards, From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 17:43:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA22452; Sun, 25 May 1997 17:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3388D7A2.124C microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:51:54 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT QField Sims Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Tru5h3.0.bU5.3XDYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I have posted 8 QField sims of the SMOT device to Jean-Louis. They should shortly be available to view. Jean-Louis will advise us when he is finished. I have been asked by several people about the SMOT site. As far as I am concerned, use any of it in anyway you see fit. Just remember to mention Jean-Louis and me. Its not nice to forget where the info came from. Build a SMOT, if you haven't started DO IT NOW! Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 17:51:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA23246; Sun, 25 May 1997 17:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970525172602.00a6f5e0 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:26:04 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: SMOT Construction Tips Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"OoF7M1.0.1h5.mZDYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have found that a hollow glass marble filled with powdered iron (through a small drilled hole) achieves greater lift than a hard-steel ball. The hard glass surface also decreases friction losses and the powdered iron would eliminate any eddy current losses in the future. At 02:39 AM 5/26/97 +0400, you wrote: >Greg Watson wrote: > >>Have you started building your Phase 1 SMOT device yet? > >No, not yet. Because my two assistant cats had kidnapped my mouse ball >and made their own OU experiments! > >Actually, I will try to get the needed materials today. > >Regards, > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 21:50:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA19153; Sun, 25 May 1997 21:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Non anomaly (Re: SMOT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:26:53 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970525150058.00abce0c mail.localaccess.com> from "Epitaxy" at May 25, 97 03:01:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VwP7r3.0.Bh4.H5HYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Epitaxy wrties: > Please remember that the demagnetizing force MUST oppose the magnetization > polarity of a permanent magnet in order to do ANY "damage". This means S-S > or N-N (ie. Repelling mode) is necessary to demagnetize a permanent magnet. > > *** In Greg's SMOT the magnets are in the ATTRACTING mode, so they are NOT > subjected to any demagnetizing forces from each other !!!. *** But doesn't the motion of a conductor through a magnetic field generated a current that generates a counter-magnetic force? We can presume the currents are "eddy currents" wholly contained within the steel ball, of course. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 21:51:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA32189; Sun, 25 May 1997 21:36:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:36:26 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:36:21 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <970525220442_100433.1541_BHG62-1 CompuServe.COM> from "Chris Tinsley" at May 25, 97 06:04:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zJnFC1.0.ps7.9DHYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley writes: > as I recall, the only difference between 'hard' ferromagnetic material which > is a magnet and the same material which is not, is that the 'domains' > in one case are aligned while in the other they are randomly oriented. Well, if switching between coherence and incoherence of magnetic domains doesn't require a concomitant and proportional energy input, then I think the explanation of magnetic over-unity is trivially easy. A ferrous object suspended between two magnets whose coherence/incoherence oscillations were 180 degrees out of phase would experience a reciprocating force whose energy could be tapped. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 23:11:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA00858; Sun, 25 May 1997 22:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:54:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970525153256.00abc170 mail.localaccess.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 19:51:44 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: No SMOT balls? Resent-Message-ID: <"PIEcn1.0.KD.5MIYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg & all: Where are you people getting the balls to use with Greg's SMOT? I keep seeing mouse balls mentioned. I have two, and there's no ferromagnetic material in them. And now Epitaxy has hollow glass marbles he can fill with filings or ferrite?! Hey Epitaxy, I've got some bismuth powder - want to mix some of that in there and see if the sphere gets even lighter as it rides the neutral line? If it is a gravitational effect, then Greg's more advanced design(s) that might use springs for the return force might not work. What kind of mouse balls have iron in them? I'd want to strip off the rubber, but is the surface under there rough? I don't want to have to figure out how to sand and polish to a perfect sphere. I've got magnets, I've got aluminum channel, I've got Sintra (great plastic balsa substitute), but ... - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 25 23:54:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA13545; Sun, 25 May 1997 23:49:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:49:35 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC6965.FA1A6B20 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: No SMOT balls? Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:47:15 -0700 Encoding: 21 TEXT, 42 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"cyzTO.0.ZJ3._9JYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >Where are you people getting the balls to use with Greg's SMOT? I keep >seeing mouse balls mentioned. I have two, and there's no ferromagnetic >material in them. And now Epitaxy has hollow glass marbles he can fill with [snip] Hi Rick, The above caused multiple 's here, but I'll try to keep that part of my sense of humor under control and give a straight reply: Hardware store. Most good ones around here have ball bearings, different sizes. If not, try an auto parts store? And there is actually a Yellow Pages listing for "Bearings" in our phone book. Found a retail supplier of all kinds of bearing assemblies, including naked steel balls. Dan Quickert dequickert ucdavis.edu 916-756-0575 begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(A &`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0! `(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, ,````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! M. $````"`?8/`0````0````````#,C,!!( !`!,```!213H@3F\@4TU/5"!B M86QL`' ``0```!,```!2 M13H 3F\@4TU/5"!B86QLL"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K ?,C4U`H *@8,-L0M@;F6$(8"!P96\+4!U@9T42`'0+ M &<@=!8@( IB!T!L!"!T;R!U2Q'P'7!I)4 @1Q>@9P(G!D%-3U0_($GT(&L) MX' ?SR#?(>\?1O41\&4E`B $8"82)80' .T",&D"( F +B=A$< =()$E,'=O M+"/ ;F0E,FL7H";A;B7P9 20`V)G^RT@)/!C)]\H[RG_'T8`P%L=``'9Y+8$$(& &\!1 M)5%C?0.19 ,0`R F4B__&_=;,G,#`'!="H4*A4AIM1QS+#I<5"51`:!O+;'' M-X F$2Y0;75L)/ D C@\9SXFX2."+A!B=$_)Y(E,3.P M)$ *P 5 ;V8_*_ UH!'P`( =8$#A:'7[!& %P'4N0 20-W "(0- TP,@+C)G M:2VQ82MP/X Y"W!G: 5 %Z +4'DZNSL "Q%W(])#P 6P92U0]QS00\ DL&\$ M<$#0+2 $('\*P A +D$C@RV3)8(E<&7K"L E`7,N$&0&D"\A+-%Y*W!I>@>0 M+5% \"[P=/\N$#^"`Y$]0"7A0)($($53OR=0-,(N1GFP$`"3S`A %P")"2"7^(C0B"&$D0#8`+2 E<$8@^FLM4$9& MTT. %Z !D ,1>'-U< M0")% TD?2:_T+@&0$($#A2!4CP 00-(#O`F (D$B! M"X!C"D!(L"41_&YA)Y N4$/ ">!'\262RBXZ7$0#D5%U')$$D!9T"H4-L'%7 M=4!U8U9D+: $`"X) '4*A3D@,38M-S5:0# USUI@.EP*]$X@,S8?(3)?"Q^) M%L$`7I ```,`$! ``````P`1$ ````! ```#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``-U5I ` end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 01:22:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA20046; Mon, 26 May 1997 01:19:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:19:01 -0700 Message-ID: <33894717.6733 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:47:27 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork References: <01BC6906.992B4000 bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_KO_e3.0.-u4.pTKYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg A. Woods wrote: > > [ On Sun, May 25, 1997 at 11:47:56 (-0500), havveye execpc.com wrote: ] > > Subject: RE: Re : Watson/Teamwork > > > > I would like to know what the EMF looks like on Watson's device. Does it = > > change with the movement of the ball? Would an EMF picture, or video = > > give us further insite? And if what we are doing now does do into the = > > history books I would like at least one sentence about me. > > On that note I recall that the inside back cover of the March 1997 IEEE > Spectrum magazine has an advertisement for Ansoft HFSS: Electromagnetic > Field Simulation Software. http://www.ansoft.com/. > > Someone with access to this software or some similar might try building > a model of Greg Watson's device(s) to see what's going on (assuming this > software can actually model "static" magnetic fields. > > -- > Greg A. Woods > > +1 416 443-1734 VE3TCP robohack!woods > Planix, Inc. ; Secrets of the Weird Hi Greg, I have posted Quick Field Sims to Jean-Louis's web site. I had a look at the site you suggested and at a pricing of over $20,000 Aust, I think I will stay with QField. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 01:48:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA11364; Mon, 26 May 1997 01:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33894892.2327 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:53:46 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: demagnetizing force References: <01BC695A.63CD8E00 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3NCa41.0.On2.iaKYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: > > Epitaxy wrote (in Re: Non anomaly (Re: SMOT)): > > [snip] > >Please remember that the demagnetizing force MUST oppose the > magnetization > >polarity of a permanent magnet in order to do ANY "damage". This means > S-S > > or N-N (ie. Repelling mode) is necessary to demagnetize a permanent > magnet. > [snip] > > In all of the ramp setups, to make each side assembly, multiple magnets are > laid end-to-end with like poles of both magnets facing the same direction. > The ends have to be forced together and held there, because in that > configuration there are opposing fields at the union between magnets. Is > this going to demagnetize them? > > Dan Quickert Hi Dan, Have not seen that happen. The sims I have done suggest they become like a larger magnet. The pull force grows as more magnets are added. This to me indicates that the magnets are moving up their B/H curve, not down. This agrees with theory of long V short magnets and how they self demag. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 01:50:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA12034; Mon, 26 May 1997 01:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:34:06 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 04:31:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970526043103_587577254 emout19.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, harti@bbtt.de, gwatson@microtronics.com.au Subject: SMOT 1.0 - UPDATE - Quickfield diagrams Resent-Message-ID: <"-4B491.0.qx2.vhKYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Today, I have updated my web site with the Quick Field simulation pictures of Greg Watson. You will find all these pictures and diagrams about the SMOT's magnetic flux density at : http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/smot1qfl.htm Overunity yours, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 02:08:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA23916; Mon, 26 May 1997 02:06:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:06:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3389521F.1502 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:34:31 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT Magnets Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QF4B62.0.Sr5.y9LYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Here is the info on my magnet supplier : Company : JayCar Electronics, PO Box 185, Concord NSW, 2137, Australia Phone 61 2 2743 6144 Fax 61 2 2743 2066 They accept : BankCard, Visa, MasterCard, American Express. Product description : TH1876, Frij Magnets-13x9x4mm, Pk100, $4.95 (Aust including 20% sales Tax) Hope this helps, I have verified that strong tape works ok to hold the magnet arrays together. Just use it on both sides. I build my latest arrays using a small flat piece of steel as a base. I stuck the magnets together using the steel base and the two side rails. Get everything together, nice and square and apply a piece of tape to the top of the magnets. Then slide the array off the steel base and apply the tape to the other side. Remove one of the side steel rails and the array is finished. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 02:25:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA25657; Mon, 26 May 1997 02:22:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:22:16 -0700 Message-ID: <338955EA.4679 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:50:42 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Nice SMOT Trick Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"o2Jrl.0.eG6.7PLYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Here is a good party trick for the SMOT ramp. Hold 6 to 8 (or what ever you can hold) balls in you hand and drop them onto the flat starting ramp at about 2 per second. Most ramps will support 2 to 3 balls in flight at one time. Its really neat to watch so much mass moving through the SMOT ramp. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 02:25:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA25715; Mon, 26 May 1997 02:22:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:22:25 -0700 From: atech ix.netcom.com Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970526052902.006f5234 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 05:29:02 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy Resent-Message-ID: <"VtqnP2.0.jH6.HPLYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This probably has nothing to do with the OU toy but I thought it worth mentioning. In terms of deriving energy from atomic structure, John Searl has an interesting idea. Mr. Searl believes that one can use the excess electrons of rare earth group elements. As I understand this idea, the lost electrons will be replaced by other electrons that the nucleus attracts from elsewhere. If the cycle is repeated you supposedly get a stream of electrons coming out of a box that causes the local ambient temperature to drop. So it seems to boil down to the question of whether electrons being pulled out of the air manifests itself as a reduction in ambient temperature? At 06:04 PM 5/25/97 EDT, you wrote: >John, > > > If we accept that the ball makes it through the loop 1.001+ times > > (i.e. > 1.0) then getting energy from the magnets by weakening > > them becomes the first explanation to explore. > >I really should re-familiarise myself with all this stuff. But, as I >recall, the only difference between 'hard' ferromagnetic material which >is a magnet and the same material which is not, is that the 'domains' >in one case are aligned while in the other they are randomly oriented. > >I don't see (1) a lot of energy, if any, becoming available in the transition, >and (2) I can't off-hand think of one example of such a >mechanism being available to provide energy, or (3) of a simple machine >like Greg's which dis-aligns 'hard' materials in this way. > >So, while I take your point, I would prefer to assume that this is all >a big mistake or joke - unless or until others report the same effect. > >Queer business, though. Greg is impressive in his writings. And it is >true that rumours of such devices are indeed rife. I just don't know, >at this stage, what to make of it. But - odd though it may seem - I'm >reluctant to accept as explanations the "quasi-conventional" ideas such >as the one you suggest. They sound more like "explainings away" rather >than probable explanations. > >I can't help being reminded of a time of s.p.f where Frank Close >suggested that CF energy came from storage of energy in the 'deep' >electrons nearest the nucleus. Of course, having proposed this >startling new energy storage system, he was not interested in studying >it - I'd have thought such a discovery worth a few Nobels any year. > > > In fact, right off hand, alternate "non-anomalous" explanations do > > not leap to mind. > >Nor to mine. I think that either we are missing something obvious, or >Greg is pulling our leg, or his beastie is "interesting". > >Chris > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 02:28:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA26718; Mon, 26 May 1997 02:26:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:26:29 -0700 Message-ID: <338956E4.3BD microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:54:52 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More questions... References: <01BC6955.A8057D80 bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_VQsS1.0.CX6.4TLYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hawkeye wrote: > > What would happen if a magnetized ball was used? Don't think it would work. I believe part of the secret is the use of a soft ferromagnetic material. > In the search for over-unity wouldn't it be easier to make devices that use friction to make power? > What if the ramp was replaced by a series of magnetic rings (large to small in order)? Could work, but I would worry about the mag field contours on exit. Not too easy to control. > I am just throwing my thoughts into the air and looking at where they land. Its called thinking outside the square. > Robert Hawkins. 'Hawkeye" HI Robert, Thanks for the inout. Keep thinking and BUILD a SMOT ramp. Best Results, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 02:31:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA27538; Mon, 26 May 1997 02:30:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:30:15 -0700 Message-ID: <338957A4.703 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:58:04 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT v1.0 Result & Design Notes References: <199705260718.AAA22241 iceland.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rVEAp3.0.1k6.bWLYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Randall wrote: > > At 07:14 AM 5/26/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: > >Michael Randall wrote: > >> > >> > >> USA standard ceramic block magnet dimensions: > >> Part No. Grade Thick Width Lenght Cost per Qty 100 > >> CB1434 5 0.25 0.375 0.75 $20 > > > >I would use this one, smaller, easier to make different size arrays. > > Thanks for the info. > > >Hi Michael, > > > >I woulds go for the smaller magnets. I have found that they work out > >better. > > > >As a hint to building the arrays and being able to reuse the magnets, I > >stack the maagnets together on a flat steel plate, get them square and > >them skim the magnets with a THIN coating of superglue. Let than dry > >and then apply to the other side. Now let the steel bar attach by > >itself. Building the arrays this way, I have found I can recover most > >uf the magnets. Other glues might work better. I just thought of using > >strong tape. Should work ok. > > > > > >Best Regards, > > Greg > > Hi Greg, > > Thanks for the tips, I'll give it a try. > > Results of experiments today: > With Radio Shack magnets (0.75"x 0.25"x 0.875"L) and a close replica of your > design. > > 1. The 0.75" steel ball drops off the 0.5" alum. track to the next track below. > 2. The magnetic field still holds the ball lightly at the track below. > 3. The next magnetic ramp and assembly pulled the ball away from the first > assembly. > > Next building a second ramp to see if the 2nd magnetic field can carry it up > and to the next drop. It should work as you and Dan have verified. > > I found it interesting that all that was needed was to get the ball to the > next ramp. Once there the next magnetic assembly can pull it away even if > the first ramp mag. assembly had a hold on it. I don't see any problem in > closing the loop with multiple ramps. > > Design Notes: > 1. The width of the magnets should be close to the width of the steel ball. > 0.5" steel ball would not work with 0.75" width magnets but did work with > 0.625" ball. > 2. Greg's design with a magnet width even smaller than steel ball would > probably be best. An added benefit being at the end drop the magnetic field > would have a smaller effect on the steel ball sitting on the next lower > track ramp verses larger width magnets. > > It works! Thanks again for sharing your designs. > > Best Regards, > Michael Hi Michael, Glad to hear of your success. Good work. Any chance of pictures? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 02:34:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA15946; Mon, 26 May 1997 02:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338954C7.68F microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:45:51 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: No SMOT balls? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SNxMk3.0.0v3.mLLYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Greg & all: > > Where are you people getting the balls to use with Greg's SMOT? I keep > seeing mouse balls mentioned. I have two, and there's no ferromagnetic > material in them. And now Epitaxy has hollow glass marbles he can fill with > filings or ferrite?! Hey Epitaxy, I've got some bismuth powder - want to > mix some of that in there and see if the sphere gets even lighter as it > rides the neutral line? If it is a gravitational effect, then Greg's more > advanced design(s) that might use springs for the return force might not > work. > > What kind of mouse balls have iron in them? I'd want to strip off the > rubber, but is the surface under there rough? I don't want to have to > figure out how to sand and polish to a perfect sphere. > > I've got magnets, I've got aluminum channel, I've got Sintra (great plastic > balsa substitute), but ... > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI Hi Rick, Call any bearing supplier. Ask for naked balls. Really! Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 03:16:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA18178; Mon, 26 May 1997 02:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: 26 May 97 05:56:44 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy Message-ID: <970526095643_100433.1541_BHG63-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"X9LRG3.0.xR4.TyLYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg, > BUT just BUILD a unit, play with it, SEE it work and then tell me > I am pulling your leg. I may build one later. I'm not telling you that you are pulling my leg, that's just me trying to cover the possibilities. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 03:28:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA01559; Mon, 26 May 1997 03:27:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:27:23 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970526032715.00ad538c mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:27:17 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: RE: SMOT Construction Tips Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"7-SOE1.0.DO.AMMYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: One of these miniature versions of the child's toy that you shake and a differently colored liquids bubble up inside (kind of like a lavalamp). It is called "Magic marble". You drill a little hole in it where they epoxied the original inlet hole and replace the colored liquid with powdered iron and than epoxy it closed again. Presto - A very hard ball (low friction) with little eddy currents and high magnetic permeability. At 10:52 PM 5/25/97 -0700, you wrote: >Epitaxy wrote: > > >I have found that a hollow glass marble filled with powdered iron (through > >a small drilled hole) achieves greater lift than a hard-steel ball. > > > >The hard glass surface also decreases friction losses and the powdered iron > >would eliminate any eddy current losses in the future. > >Sounds interesting. Where would one find a hollow glass marble? > >Dan Quickert >dequickert ucdavis.edu >916-756-0575 > > >Attachment Converted: "c:\DOWN\WINMAIL23.DAT" > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 03:43:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA20740; Mon, 26 May 1997 03:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970526032653.00ad30ac mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:26:55 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: No SMOT balls? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"G4Tvq1.0.-35.eMMYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For regular bearing balls go to any shop that sells bearings. They always have replacement balls on hand. In USA the chain store called Bearing Inc. carries 6 pieces package of 1 inch (25mm) balls for $5.75. Smaller sizes also available ...but bearing balls do not have the best ferromagnetic properties, they are very hard (they ought to be for a ball bearing :) To get the best of both worlds get yourself one of these "Magic marbles" or miniature "Snow globes", drill a little pinhole, pour out the liquid and/or dissolve any plastic parts inside with paint thinner and then fill it up with powdered iron (not filings, they are to coarse for the small hole). Epoxy the hole shut and polish it up. Presto - A very hard ball (low friction) with little eddy currents and high magnetic permeability. ...or skin a mouse ball if you want. Hint: heating it up burns of the rubber and makes the hard steel softer..., unfortunately softer on the outside as well, which means higher friction. At 07:51 PM 5/25/97 -1000, you wrote: >Greg & all: > >Where are you people getting the balls to use with Greg's SMOT? I keep >seeing mouse balls mentioned. I have two, and there's no ferromagnetic >material in them. And now Epitaxy has hollow glass marbles he can fill with >filings or ferrite?! Hey Epitaxy, I've got some bismuth powder - want to >mix some of that in there and see if the sphere gets even lighter as it >rides the neutral line? If it is a gravitational effect, then Greg's more >advanced design(s) that might use springs for the return force might not >work. > >What kind of mouse balls have iron in them? I'd want to strip off the >rubber, but is the surface under there rough? I don't want to have to >figure out how to sand and polish to a perfect sphere. > >I've got magnets, I've got aluminum channel, I've got Sintra (great plastic >balsa substitute), but ... > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 03:57:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA22083; Mon, 26 May 1997 03:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970526034111.00ad7bf0 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:41:13 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: lost email Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"kerm23.0.yO5.7aMYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Don't forget the Service Pack 1 and Service Pack 2 and than the famous 28 "Win96" patches, to correct all of the holes and bugs in the original release of Windows95. ...and NO, I do not mean Microsoft Plus addon ! At 05:36 PM 5/26/97 +0930, you wrote: >Fred Epps wrote: >> >> Hi Folks! >> >> I am hassling with a new computer that occasionally completely freezes. >> Nothing works but to shut it down, thus losing files. It did so while >> retrieving all my email of the last week and I lost all messages :-) >> If anybody wrote me in the last week you'll have to resend it. Sorry about >> the problems. >> >> All Hail the Geat Satan Bill Gates, >> Fred > >Hi Fred, > >I have run Win95 since it came out. Best thing since sliced bread. I >use Netscape 3.0 Gold. Seems to be a solid package. As a old computer >designer, I would suspect your hardware. Get into the setup and try >slowing down the ram. If things settle down, suspect you have some soft >ram simms. If not, suspect your MotherBoard. I say again, Win95 seems >to be very soild. > > >Best Regards, > Greg > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 04:12:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA23293; Mon, 26 May 1997 03:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970526035546.00ad8280 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:55:47 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: SMOT balls? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"m8pJK.0.qh5.rnMYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Err... It should have been Bearings Inc. Also in response to the objections some of you voiced:... the glass marbles ARE harder than the bearing balls. As a matter of fact GLASS is harder than most iron based alloys ! At 03:27 AM 5/26/97 -0700, I wrote: > >For regular bearing balls go to any shop that sells bearings. They always >have replacement balls on hand. In USA the chain store called Bearing Inc. >carries 6 pieces package of 1 inch (25mm) balls for $5.75. Smaller sizes >also available > >...but bearing balls do not have the best ferromagnetic properties, they >are very hard (they ought to be for a ball bearing :) > >For best of both worlds, fill up a glass ball with powdered iron... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 05:37:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA27107; Mon, 26 May 1997 05:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 05:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Posted-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:20:02 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <33897FBD.5E49 winternet.com> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:19:09 -0500 From: Bob Fickle Organization: self X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MY HAT'S OFF! References: <33879BCD.54FE interlaced.net> <3387C6CB.1F69@skypoint.com> <3387D3D8.3EBF@microtronics.com.au> <338894F7.40B1@skypoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"X8arA2.0.Td6.o0OYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > > (snip) > > I would say that if anyone could get a single ramp device to have the > ball (from a dead start) exit the ramp to a point a distance of, say, > the length of the ramp again, while remaining above or equal to the > start height, then anomalous behavior is indicated. > > (snip) Current home technology may allow more accurate determinations: just videotate the ball rolling up from a long distance, & rolling away again: stopping the tape every few frames would allow you to measure the velocity as the ball before & after ecountering the magnets. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 06:45:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA16635; Mon, 26 May 1997 06:43:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 06:43:56 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970526094322_612904152 emout06.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Arata Replications? Resent-Message-ID: <"5QVTj.0.r34.SEPYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, You mentioned that Arata's cell was one of a kind and hasn't been replicated. Do you know why no one in Japan has tried to replicate the high XSH results that he has reported? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 09:15:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA15410; Mon, 26 May 1997 08:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3389A9D4.5C5E worldonline.nl> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:18:44 +0200 From: Ronald de Mol Organization: World Online X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: WWW Page Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cip7C1.0.im3.9-QYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, New WWW page with Greg Watson Projecs online. I hope to have my own photos also soon online, But I have not yet found the right magnets! (the little ones are hard to find here...) See it at HTTP://www.worldonline.nl/~catware -- Thanks, Ronald de mol. catware worldonline.nl WEB Page HTTP://www.worldonline.nl/~catware From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 10:51:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA27120; Mon, 26 May 1997 10:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:27:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BC6965.FA1A6B20 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:24:49 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: No SMOT balls? Resent-Message-ID: <"VWgrA2.0.ed6.iVSYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vorts - Thanks for the tips on finding the right kind of ball bearing for the ramp. I found a 15mm ball in a junk box that had a little bit of rust so it's not the greatest, but I did try to get a SMOT running last night. I have 15mm aluminum rail anyway, so that seems to be the size I'm going to work with. I forgot to scale up the ramp length to the other components though, and my magnets are to wide so it didn't quite work from a standing start on the flat part of the ramp. Very close though. Looks like it "wants" to work. Next iteration will have narrower magnets, longer ramp, and a clean shiny new ball. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 11:13:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA08434; Mon, 26 May 1997 11:10:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:10:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:06:47 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: accelerate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"4Qxtd2.0.i32.48TYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Folks, Built Waston gizmo modification. Ball will accelerate. Working on rotary, with some primary modifications. I encourage you to built as per Waston's specs. JHS On Mon, 26 May 1997, Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > Vorts - > > Thanks for the tips on finding the right kind of ball bearing for the ramp. > I found a 15mm ball in a junk box that had a little bit of rust so it's not > the greatest, but I did try to get a SMOT running last night. I have 15mm > aluminum rail anyway, so that seems to be the size I'm going to work with. > I forgot to scale up the ramp length to the other components though, and my > magnets are to wide so it didn't quite work from a standing start on the > flat part of the ramp. Very close though. Looks like it "wants" to work. > > Next iteration will have narrower magnets, longer ramp, and a clean shiny > new ball. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 11:47:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA04482; Mon, 26 May 1997 11:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970526112300.00ae4714 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:23:01 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: SMOT v1.0 Result & Design Notes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NUZYQ3.0.w51.FLTYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Perhaps when the ball is subjected to the magnetic field (on the neutral center line) it looses a little of gravitational weight and/or mass inertia, thus it is easier to lift it up the ramp. The ball regains all of its weight and/or mass after it exits the ramp and the net difference manifests as the extra kinetic energy. Mr. Watson suggested that if this theory is correct the SMOT should be changed to SMAGOT (Simple Magnetic Anti Gravity OU Toy :) Of course the electron (and/or nucleus) ground state ZPE regeneration is still a plausible explanation for the source of energy as well as thermal negative-entropy, vibration rectification, chemical bond energy of the ferrite or PMs, remanent ferrite magnetization, etc... What matters the most - it works ! At 01:08 PM 5/26/97 -0400, you wrote: >Look, can you make the field cycle? Then when the ball falls down, it can >be lifted back up. Where is the energy coming from? The earth's >rotation? The gravity? > >Andrew -- >+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053 seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+ >| Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html | >| Science page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/ | >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| | >| "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics | >| ** Information is power, use it wisely. ** | >| ** No matter where you go, there you are. ** | >| | >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 12:03:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA21420; Mon, 26 May 1997 11:59:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:59:57 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970526115944.00ae6344 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:59:48 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: Reflecting the flux of the SMOT magnets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8SgOC2.0.IE5.hsTYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes the eddie currents in the ball do reflect the magnetic flux of the magnet arrays back into the magnets. But this effect is very small and insignificant, unable to cause the demagnetization of the permanent magnets. Reflecting the full flux into the permanent magnet by eddie currents would require a superconducting ball anyway and zero distance between the ball and the magnetic array on either side of the ramp. In reality very little of the magnetic flux is reflected into the magnets by the eddie currents in the ball, most of the eddies are dissipated in the form of RI^2 heating within the ball and their magnetic flux dispersed in the air gap between the ball and magnetic arrays of the SMOT. Even under ideal conditions only 100% (not more) of the magnetic flux could be reflected back into the magnets. The eddies in the ball are easily suppressed by using a glass ball filled with iron powder. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 12:14:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA08777; Mon, 26 May 1997 11:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970526115021.00ae6344 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:50:22 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: RE: ICQ/ramp power! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"AXqKI1.0.u82.DlTYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>>At 12:36 PM 5/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >>> >>>BTW: The demagnetizing of the magnets might be the energy source that the device uses. According to conventional theory, the demagnetization of the magnets can only happen if the magnets are subjected to an opposing (read: Repelling) magnetic field above the intrinsic demagnetization threshold. (That is aside from mechanical shock and Curie temperature.) In SMOT the magnet arrays are in the attracting mode and the eddy currents in the ball do not exceed the demagnetization threshold. The eddies are easily suppressed by using a glass ball filled with iron powder. In any case the magnetic field created by the eddy currents will not have greater intensity than the field of permanent magnets that are inducing the eddies in the ball with their magnetic field. Reflecting the full flux into the permanent magnet by eddie currents would require a superconducting ball anyway and zero distance between the ball and the magnetic array on either side of the ramp. In reality very little of the magnetic flux is reflected into the magnets by the eddie currents in the ball, most of the eddies are dissipated in the form of RI^2 heating within the ball and their magnetic flux dispersed in the air gap between the ball and magnetic arrays of the SMOT. If anything the presence of the ball between the two attracting magnetic arrays only helps to maintain the magnet's magnetization, because the ball form a high permeability path for the magnetic flux IN THE SAME DIRECTION as the polarization of the magnet's domains ! Look at the demagnetization values for various magnetic alloys. Material Grade Demagnet Curie BH-Strength NdFeB g39 - 21,300 150 40 SmCo g26 - 10,000 300 26 AlNiCo g05 - 640 540 5.5 Ceramic g08 - 3,200 300 3.5 (BaFe2O3 or SrFe2O3 ceramic alloys) Flexible g01 - 1,300 100 0.6 Grade = Material quality grade (alloy type ie. ALNICO 5) Demagnet = Minimum Demagnetizing force in Oersteds Curie = Curie Temperature in Degrees Celsius BH-Strength = Maximum Energy Product in Mega Gauss Oersteds (MGO) The above clearly shows that AlNiCo is THE EASIEST to demagnetize. However AlNiCo has the highest Curie temperature of them all - 540degC. The Neodymium (NdFeB) magnets are the strongest (ie. they have the highest energy product). Flexible magnets are the weakest. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 12:47:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA30158; Mon, 26 May 1997 12:44:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:44:58 -0700 Message-Id: <3389CFCB.9C062E17 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:00:43 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT v1.0 Result & Design Notes X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.32.19970526112300.00ae4714 mail.localaccess.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PbjpW3.0.8N7.vWUYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Epitaxy wrote: > > Perhaps when the ball is subjected to the magnetic field (on the neutral > center line) it looses a little of gravitational weight and/or mass > inertia, thus it is easier to lift it up the ramp. The ball regains all of > its weight and/or mass after it exits the ramp and the net difference > manifests as the extra kinetic energy. > > Mr. Watson suggested that if this theory is correct the SMOT should be > changed to SMAGOT (Simple Magnetic Anti Gravity OU Toy :) > > Of course the electron (and/or nucleus) ground state ZPE regeneration is > still a plausible explanation for the source of energy as well as thermal > negative-entropy, vibration rectification, chemical bond energy of the > ferrite or PMs, remanent ferrite magnetization, etc... > > What matters the most - it works ! > > At 01:08 PM 5/26/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Look, can you make the field cycle? Then when the ball falls down, it can > >be lifted back up. Where is the energy coming from? The earth's > >rotation? The gravity? > > In my a past posting at 8 May 1997 I had announced a new theory from Richard D. Saam "Superconductivity, the Structure Scale of the Universe". Please read the abstract or the whole theory if you have sufficient mathematical background. The theory is specially investigating the Podkletnov Experiment and it relate the gravity shielding effect to Earth rotation on superconductors and explain the superconductivity phenomenon with a fully new theory based on a new "TRISINE" geometry. Paper reference is physics/9705007 and can be reached from http://xxx.lanl.gov Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 13:25:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA01388; Mon, 26 May 1997 13:18:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:18:06 -0700 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:17:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705262017.PAA18610 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: accelerate Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Cc1W11.0.XL.z_UYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:06 PM 5/26/97 -0400, John Schnurer wrote: > Built Waston gizmo modification. Ball will accelerate. > Working on rotary, with some primary modifications. John, "accelerate" reminded me of "gravitate". Did you ever reach a conclusion about yr gravity alteration results? Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 13:33:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA03214; Mon, 26 May 1997 13:30:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:30:22 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:29:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970526162939_1223327305 emout13.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re : Re: SMOT v1.0 Result & Design Notes Resent-Message-ID: <"SppPX.0._n.SBVYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 26/05/1997 20:40:30 , Epitaxy wrote : << Mr. Watson suggested that if this theory is correct the SMOT should be changed to SMAGOT (Simple Magnetic Anti Gravity OU Toy :) Of course the electron (and/or nucleus) ground state ZPE regeneration is still a plausible explanation for the source of energy as well as thermal negative-entropy, vibration rectification, chemical bond energy of the ferrite or PMs, remanent ferrite magnetization, etc... What matters the most - it works ! >> Hi all, You may find some interesting explanations about the Magnetic Regauging effect at : http://www.virtualtimes.com/writers/bearden/mageng/p06.htm Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 14:40:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA14489; Mon, 26 May 1997 14:36:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:36:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3389F693.7811 worldonline.nl> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:46:11 +0200 From: Ronald de Mol Organization: World Online X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT QField Sims References: <3388D7A2.124C microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YjQhN3.0.9Y3.e9WYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have posted 8 QField sims of the SMOT device to Jean-Louis. They > should shortly be available to view. Jean-Louis will advise us when he > is finished. > > > > Build a SMOT, if you haven't started DO IT NOW! > > Best Regards, > Greg Hi Greg, Thanks for the 8 Qfield Gifs. Could you make another 4 of them ? Like the 'Looking into the exit, linked ramp below', but then with a dropping ball, in four steps valling from the top exit to the bottem next ramp ? And for the BUILD phase... I have earlyer already 2 models made, one with round alnico-5 magnets and one with 50x19x5 magnets (Both a succes for a SINGLE model). The problem is that I really need the 13x10x5 magnets and I can't find them anywhere yet. Here comes my problem: In ALL the models I have made and seen, the exit point is just before the start of the last magnet. (could more people confirm that ?, or am i wrong.) if the lenght of one magnet is 50mm (as in my earlyer model) Then there is a approx 60mm 'behind' the drop point area and that is NOT good for linking ramps toghetter I think. And as second reason I want to duplicate the project as good as possible. Tomorrow I gonna call all the magnet supplyers I can find, in the hope that there is at least ONE that sells the 13x10x5 magnets ! (or verry similair ones.) If so I buy 1000 of them if not to $$$. Thanks in advance. Ronald. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 15:03:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA18357 for billb@eskimo.com; Mon, 26 May 1997 15:03:35 -0700 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:03:35 -0700 X-Envelope-From: joeflynn delphi.delphi.com Mon May 26 15:03:32 1997 Received: from bos1d.delphi.com (SYSTEM bos1d.delphi.com [199.93.4.4]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA18314 for ; Mon, 26 May 1997 15:03:29 -0700 Received: from smtp.delphi.com ("port 3386" ns2.delphi.com) by delphi.com (PMDF V5.1-8 #22009) with SMTP id <01IJC1UUOBIO9ENBJD delphi.com> for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Mon, 26 May 1997 18:03:16 EDT Old-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 1995 16:16:26 -0500 From: joeflynn delphi.delphi.com (Charles J. Flynn) Subject: Re: Reflecting the flux of the SMOT magnets X-Sender: joeflynn pop.delphi.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <01IJC1UX1IN69ENBJD delphi.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: > >Yes the eddie currents in the ball do reflect the magnetic flux of the >magnet arrays back into the magnets. But this effect is very small and >insignificant, unable to cause the demagnetization of the permanent magnets. > > >The eddies in the ball are easily suppressed by using a glass ball filled >with iron powder. > > Just to help with your design, ball shapes act as short circuits. Most metal shapes placed in magnetic fields have definite north and south poles depending on orientation of the metal in the field. A ball, by nature of it's shape has it's poles shorted and does not produce an external field, only absorbs and shorts the flux lines. A 'keepered magnet'. This is why you do not see spherical permanent magnets. (Don't confuse with disc magnets placed in plastic balls). This will not hold true for plastic filled with a ferrite powder or iron filings. Also the calculation for eddy currents is a little more complex, for any part not rigidly attached to an axis. (free to orientate in many directions)I doubt you'll experience significant domain reversal. **************E-MAIL CONTENTS: COPYRIGHTS APPLY FLYNN RESEARCH INC******************** Joe Flynn E-mail joeflynn delphi.com Flynn Research Inc. Fax (816)537-5950 P.O. Box 11657 Kansas City, Mo. 64138 **************************************************************************** ********** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 15:27:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA21588; Mon, 26 May 1997 15:24:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:24:52 -0700 Message-ID: <338A0D4F.402C microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:53:11 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More questions... References: <199705261711.NAA28728 big.seorf.ohiou.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ma_iY2.0.EH5.psWYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Science wig. sig. wrote: > > Does the ball float above the ramp? No, but magnetic forces reduce the frictional losses as it climbs the ramp. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 15:52:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA04211; Mon, 26 May 1997 15:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338A0E02.6590 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:56:10 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICQ/ramp power! References: <01BC69D2.4F8FBD00 handkase.mdm.mke.execpc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"APE8f2.0.Z11.qwWYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hawkeye wrote: > > BTW: The demagnetizing of the magnets might be the energy source that the device uses. Hi Hawkeye, Haven't seen that happen to any modern magnet. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 15:59:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA28727; Mon, 26 May 1997 15:55:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:55:48 -0700 Message-ID: <338A1483.24A8 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:23:55 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Added Link to JLNaudin´s Page References: <199705262251.AAA28570 mail.bbtt.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"72fWe3.0.n07.pJXYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stefan Hartmann wrote: > > Hi Greg and Jean-Louis, > > I guess, that the field change of B via > dB/dx > in this picture must be different for the > entrance and the exit, so the ball will role up > and easily exit. If > > -dB/dx(exit) > dB/dx(entrance) > > the ball will roll up and exit easily ! > > Have a look again at this pic ! > > http://members.aol.com/overunity2/images/s-top-xy.gif > > Regards, Stefan. Hi Stefan, You MUST also consider the size of the ball. Its diameter has a large effect in the function of the ramp. I believe my design has been tuned to a 12mm ball. I am not saying that ALL must use a 12mm ball, but be aware that ball size does effect opeartion. There is a real tie-in of the ball's diameter and the field coutours (the rate and distance over which the mag field changes). Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 16:21:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA00406; Mon, 26 May 1997 16:18:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:18:42 -0700 Message-ID: <338A19F1.3449 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:47:05 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT References: <338A18F3.2B08 gorge.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3GU1F.0.C6.HfXYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tom Miller wrote: > > Greg: > > I have looked at the Qfield sims. Thanks, again. > > Suggestions: > > 1. Consider the iron band on the outside of each magnet > assembly. If you were to extend that band, around the > EXIT END of each individual magnet assembly, AND extend > it 1/2 inch (12.5 mm) BACK along the inside of the magnet > assembly, would it not diminish the B field at the exit end? > Wouldn't this help the ball to exit? Tried that some time ago. Really boosts the field in the ramp (joining the steel backing plates). Running the steel bar inside the magnet arrays would kill the field there and move the magnet bounce back wall further down the ramp. Any reduction in mag field strength along the ramp will cause the ball to be repelled back down the ramp. Its the same force that drives the ball up the ramp. The trick is to get a soft exit field (the field goes away slowly) and control the field contours below the magnet arrays as the ball exits. > 2. Less likely, but possible: How about an iron band > connecting the two ENTRANCE ends, (side to side, not exit > to entrance) but far enough away to have negligible effect > on the iron ball? Say, under the balsa wood. That will help, but really complicate being able to adjust the magnet array positions. The design as presented is the result of many hours of development work. It works and is simple to build. While I don't want to stop experimentation, PLEASE build the device first, SEE it working and then EXPERIMENT to your hearts content. > 3. Could these keepers allow the magnet assemblies to > be placed more parallel, and just maybe, render unnecessary > the use of gravity to break the ball free from the exit end? No. Its not gravity but the difference in the field contours that I believe makes the ramp work. Seems we are stuck with gravity to assist the change in the mag field's contours under the ramps for a while. > Tom Miller Hi Tom, I was keeping the linking of the steel backing plates at the end under my hat for awhile. Nothing like thinking, other than BUILDING. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 16:28:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA09100; Mon, 26 May 1997 16:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338A15F2.7A7B microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:30:02 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT Magnets References: <3389521F.1502 microtronics.com.au> <33899A63.3BF3@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"c1gzg1.0.4E2.cQXYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dave DeLeo wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > Here is the info on my magnet supplier : > > > > Company : > > > > JayCar Electronics, > > PO Box 185, > > Concord NSW, 2137, > > Australia > > > > Phone 61 2 2743 6144 > > Fax 61 2 2743 2066 > > > > They accept : BankCard, Visa, MasterCard, American Express. > > > > Product description : > > > > TH1876, > > Frij Magnets-13x9x4mm, > > Pk100, > > $4.95 (Aust including 20% sales Tax) > > > > Think they will ship to the US? > > Dave DeLeo Hi Dave, Yes. Minus 20% sales tax. Min order $50 Aust. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 16:44:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA12627; Mon, 26 May 1997 16:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338A1B59.2182 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:53:05 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: This SMOT thing works!! References: <199705262219.SAA07418 ns.bluegrass.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nv0nF1.0.A53.ylXYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sam Gordon wrote: > > Hello Greg and all, > > First thanks for the posted info. I made a ramp somewhat like the one > in your diagram. (do in part that most stores are closed today) I ended up > glueing a piece of aluminum u channel on an old cd case then glueing a cd > case on each side of the channel. I couldn't find any small refrig magnets > so I used 16 round 11mm x 4mm > ceramic mags i had here, That I glued on a piece of hacksaw blade which is > 10mm wide x 1.5 or 2mm thick I managed to get the steel ball to roll up the > ramp 8 mm higher > than the starting elev. As soon as work and time permit I shall build one > exactly as you have shown. I found the bearings at Napa auto parts the guys > there save them for > sling shot ammo. Looking forward to future posts. > Hi Sam, Glad to welcome you to the SMOT club. Yes it does work. But the really big CHARGE is when we go to Phase 2 and get 4 linked ramps working. Seeing the ball travel through 4 linked ramps and NOT slow down is mind blowing. Things really get exciting then. The ball bearings for sling shot ammo is a good idea. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 17:26:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA16507; Mon, 26 May 1997 17:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338A2366.7B05 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:27:26 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Other's inspected the closed loop? References: <199705261711.NAA28728 big.seorf.ohiou.edu> <338A0D4F.402C@microtronics.com.au> <338A1E30.490D@sn.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"skOEW.0.o14.HGYYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank Roed wrote: > > Hello Greg > > Are there other's who has inspected your closed loop > version of the SMOT? Some local's that could confirm the device > as working....Just a little sceptic you now.... No, not yet. But soon you can! > > Well it probably work's, since you sound very honest. > > I'am building one too, and got some questions. > > 1. Whith 12mm ball, what is your inner width of the aluminium track? 9mm. > 2. How important is the "steel bar" back the magnets? Very. Helps to even out the field. > 3. My magnets are 20mm x 10mm x 5mm , so my magnet ramp makes 100mm, > what length do you recommend on the aluminium track? 85mm. (Ramp should be about 13-15mm less than the length of the magnet arrays. > 4. And with my magnets, 5mm depth instead of your 4mm, your > recommendation on number of magnet layers? > (Or should i get exact your magnet spec.?) 3 should work ok. Its the overall width of the array thats important. With my ceramics, I found that 16mm worked well, so 15mm (3x5mm) should be ok. > Well, enough questions for now. > > Thank's for your interest in helping us, and for shareing your work!!! > > Best regards > Frank Hi Frank, Don't forget to tell us when you get it working. Can you send pictures? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 17:37:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA17446; Mon, 26 May 1997 17:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338A253D.2B85 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:35:17 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Don't call it a toy! References: <970526184307_2086795648 emout20.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RFSIF2.0.WG4.UNYYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HLafonte aol.com wrote: > > Greg, > Calling this device a toy is like calling a volcano a lava lamp! If this > turns out to be want has been claimed, (ou), then children (and adults) will > be playing with the energy that makes the universe "tick". Please don't > demean the discovery by calling it a toy! > Butch LaFonte Hi Butch, I call it a Toy for several reasons : 1) The output is flea power. 2) The construction methods are very simple (KISS). 3) My critics will dismiss it as a Toy until it is too late. 4) The only difference between men and boys is the size of their Toys! 5) More people will build it if I call it a Toy. 6) The world should be a fun place, we need more Toys. 7) I plan to sell a version of the RMOD as a Toy. 8) Probably some more reasons I haven't realized yet. Lighten up Butch, build a SMOT ramp and PLAY with it. It wouldn't bite. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 22:30:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA25367; Mon, 26 May 1997 22:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:26:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705270526.AAA21390 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: new calorimeter, etc. Resent-Message-ID: <"Vesyd.0.EC6.33dYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexans, You can now read about and see our new water-flow calorimeter system on the EarthTech web page (address below). Also there is description and pictures of our latest attempt at the Evan Ragland triode CF cell there. The first triode run is well underway and we will be posting results soon. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 22:37:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA25977; Mon, 26 May 1997 22:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970526223206.00ab8e3c mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:32:08 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: This SMOT thing works!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"yCdRu3.0.hL6.08dYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The hacksaw blade is made out of a very hard steel that is NOT very soft magnetically (low permeability). The hacksaw blade is not a good substitute for a strip of a real soft steel. BTW: The bearing ball is also made out of a very hard alloy and its permeability is not as high as iron or soft steel. At 06:13 PM 5/26/97 -0400, you wrote: I couldn't find any small refrig magnets >so I used 16 round 11mm x 4mm >ceramic mags i had here, That I glued on a piece of hacksaw blade which is >10mm wide x 1.5 or 2mm thick I managed to get the steel ball to roll up the >ramp 8 mm higher From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 26 23:59:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA22163; Mon, 26 May 1997 23:57:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:57:38 -0700 Message-ID: <338A7D87.7DDE microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:51:59 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Smot Magnet sizes Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------619E3C6A24B0" Resent-Message-ID: <"2FpAb2.0.1Q5.WNeYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------619E3C6A24B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI All, Here is the modified drawing showing my magnet height is critical to ease of linking. 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75U6XtlkfvodnuaOsmeWtf+ZqOxyqDgqWAu4XC0DqfZWSYcHMRKlhuuWalh0m6bCh3wiMKUE eNH3L6FmKX46hAdHRjc5gxxUpNBnUQg3SnrXUhaVfq0GaklEqE+HhD6Yq4vafJAKjFc3JsX6 lChWQ6zKUsUUnd65hbTGndIajukpabe0bbN5oVRGhJgmiMnSKfnJXbsYe5qygqT6gcKXrDU1 quoKIW4ngsCKfaQncfMaZtxqhZKGUdFEbp0HU0MkQs5Kg/Zmg8hWg1qEfvqmlkOpKLJHcOP2 d3iXr6lTFgP3ee20iG0IZB0Ygpi3qC8qLuz6aM7jIy5Zrc82sih7i4qmobC4spTVq8DXHXMK s0P6KUKxZHzIB0v9snfZabNEJLApUyly5FC2Cq5Am7RKu7RM27RO+7RQG7VSO7Wns4fHmjWp Gq5aK6J6erVzyLFs6m0KFqQqK7J9In+XZyy7tm5k57MYS2wq6Kx25mvyVIEeC1Bu930fSHxw yEZ0+3Zil2hsm7UBx7c3ma73CrD4OrftNqvs5q76gm8PhbDB+riV63cTRXEpVG51NEdtVLbh MjBypKCBMmoLZX4Fm7OUpnlqybneVrq0ii+A8ro/M23xp2qd20p5RrV9dafyqaLcSrG8O5DY hob1WIvDm7zKu7zM27zO+7zQG73SO73UW73We73Ym73am70BAQA7 --------------619E3C6A24B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 00:00:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA14677; Mon, 26 May 1997 23:17:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:17:29 -0700 Message-ID: <338A7C1F.4F03 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:45:59 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: SMOT Magnets] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------434F2A8021BF" Resent-Message-ID: <"N6xrE1.0.Fb3.vndYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------434F2A8021BF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Got bounched first time --------------434F2A8021BF Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <338A7B3F.60D8 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:42:15 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT Magnets References: <3389521F.1502 microtronics.com.au> <33899A63.3BF3@ix.netcom.com> <338A15F2.7A7B@microtronics.com.au> <338A5D13.771E@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry Merriman wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > > > > > Here is the info on my magnet supplier : > > > > > > > > Product description : > > > > > > > > TH1876, > > > > Frij Magnets-13x9x4mm, > > > > Pk100, > > > > $4.95 (Aust including 20% sales Tax) > > Do you happen to know what these magnets are actually > made of? I would imagine a wide variety of materials > are possible, and it would be nice to nail it down for > the sake of science. Perhaps you could call them and ask them > for the specs on their magnets, or ask them who their > supplier is... > > -- > Barry Merriman Hi Barry, OK, I will try to find out all the specs. Jean-Louis has linked with much larger magnets and Epitaxy has linked with Neos and his glass/ferrite ball. Others have linked as well. I don't believe the magnet material is critical. Size, Yes. Have you started to build a SMOT ramp yet. Its really very simple to build and lots of really good fun. Best Regards, Greg --------------434F2A8021BF-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 00:01:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA13898; Mon, 26 May 1997 23:07:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:07:37 -0700 Message-ID: <338A79C9.642 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:36:01 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 1 ramp works, 2 don't References: <3.0.32.19970526114441.00ae6bec mail.localaccess.com> <19970527034016317.AAA48@jumanji> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kx7ll3.0.wO3.eedYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ben Tammetta wrote: > > Hello, from Atlanta GA, > > I got all my parts today and spent a lot of time building and playing > with my SMOT. My parts match Gregs pretty closely. > 12mm ball, 12mm aluminum channel > magnets: ~4x19x25mm ( Radio Shack) > arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1" (almost > 4x24mm) wide steel backing. And thin plywood and cardboard for the > base. The Magnet arrays are too long for the ramp. The magnets arrays should be 13-15mm longer than the ramp. The height of the magnet arrays (including the steel backing strip) MUST be less than 75% (a guess) of the height of the lift. My magnets are 9mm high for a 12mm lift. The steel backing strip MUST be approx the same height as the magnet arrays or the mag field contours will not be correct. Mine is 10mm. > I made 2 working SMOTS. Both work independently of each other. > 1 independent SMOT is easy to get to work if you are not concerned > with the hight you wish to achieve with the ramp. The higher you > raise the ramp the harder it gets to tune. This is correct. > The higest I could get the 12mm Steel ball to climb was 12mm. It > would climb to the top drop off and roll away...... (as long as there > was not another track there)! > > When I put another piece of the track, where the ball drops off, > to see if it would escape the magnetic field... it > would most often just stop right there. The top of the seconrd track > just fit under the bottom of the first track. The farthest the ball > would get on the second track was just 5mm and then bounce right > back. And that much was very hard to achieve. Your exit fields are not correct. Suspect your magnet array overhang is too long. I have found that the ramp mush be 13-15mm less than the length of the magnet arrays. There is a critical point of exit where the magnet wall at the end will just gently push the ball back onto the exit rails, yet allow the ball to settle on the front porch of the next ramp. The length of the front proch is also adjustable by sliding the initial flat frpnt porch under the exit of the proceeding ramp. Also critical is the position of the lower edges of the magnet arrays. Too far away and the ball will not be sucked into the entry field. In my units, I find that the arrays of the second ramp are just slightly under the higher ends of the first arrays. Anyway, you are going too fast. Build as the spec, I promise the ramps will link. Many others have been able to get this working. > I spent many frustrating hours trying to get the 2 ramps to work but > with no success. Unless Greg left out somemore details about > connecting ramps. I can't figure out how to get 2 to work as is. I have spent many 100's of hours to get you to here. Don't give up too easily. Check Jean-Louis's web page again. Look at the modified drawing of the ramps linking and you will SEE why the specs are as they are. It does work!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Greg, What am I missing? :) > > If anyone is interested ... I can put up pictures and AVIs on my > website within a day or so. > > If anyone wants to chat.... I'm online 40% of the day so you can > WinTalk (Talk me) at ben jumanji.clubelite.com > OR > ICQ me at 1326072 > > Thanks, > Ben Hi Ben, Hope the above helps. Look at the modified 4th drawing on the web site. You may need to hit reload as the old image may be in your cache. Best of luck, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 02:55:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA13586; Tue, 27 May 1997 02:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 02:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338ABDA1.64E3 earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 03:55:29 -0700 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, sci.physics.fusion@italy.it.earthlink.net, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, wireless@rmii.com, cc840@freenet.carleton.ca, mizuno athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@onramp.net, 74750.1231 compuserve.com, letters@csicop.org, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, dennis@wazoo.com, ine@padrak.com, jonesse astro.byu.edu, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bockris chemvx.chem.tamu.edu, ghlin@greenoil.chem.tamu.edu, bhorst loc100.tandem.com, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, design73 aol.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, drom@vxcern.ch, kennel nhelab.iae.or.jp, david@italy.it.earthlink.net, k@suba.com, rmills blacklightpower.com, wgood@blacklightpower.com, mattis argoscomp.com, mjmor@tor.hookup.net Subject: Sixth Miley Critique Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"f2TeI3.0.AK3.0ygYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Monday, May 26, 1997 Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 rmforall earthlink.net Sixth Miley Critique On May 23, I found in "Infinite Energy" magazine # 12, a five-page article, "Energy Gain and Nuclear Transmutation By Low-Energy p- or d- Reactions in Metal Lattices," by Heinrich Hora and J.C. Kelly (School of Physics, U. of New South Wales, Sydney 2052, Australia) and G.H. Miley (Fusion Studies Lab, U. of Illinois, Urbana, Ill. 61801, USA). I will refer to this paper as Energy Gain. The main reference is #9: G.H. Miley, G. Marne, M.J. Williams, J.A. Patterson, J. Nix, C. Cravens, and H. Hora, Progress in New Hydrogen Energy, M. Okamoto, Ed., (New Energy and Industrial Technology, Tokyo, 1997), p. 629. I don't have this reference. Could someone send me a zerox? So, this critique will focus briefly upon disturbing aspects of the Energy Gain article, which should, after all, be an important, impecable showcase of views, claims, and evidence. Figure 2: "Measured production rate density of elements depending on the atomic number Z in the palladium layers covering plastic spheres (beads) after being located for several hours between the electrodes electrolyzing a water solution (9). The concentrations of the created elements were measured with secondry ion mass spectrometry (SIMS) and other methods where the beads did not show these elements before the electrolysis. The measured elements had deviations from the natural isotope concentration by up to 15 % in agreement with fundamentally different experiments." The text comments: "The experiments (repeated several times) (9) used about 1mm diameter glass or plastic spheres (beads) covered with about 100 nm nickel or palladium or multilayers of these metals...After a two hour loading period of the metal layers with protons, where no significant heat was produced, a considerable excess heat production was measured, which can be related to nuclear reactions...The result of Fig. 2 is from beads with a palladium layer...Taking the results of 6 runs as shown in Fig. 2 (see Fig. [No figure number given here] of Ref. 9)... the observation that the transmutation of a considerable percentage of the atoms has occurred within days and weeks in agreement with the observations... Fig. 2 shows Production rate in Atoms per second-cc with a scale from 10E12 to 10E18, with 23 elements: C, O, Mg, Si, Al, P [mislabeled as a second Si point], Cl, Ti, V, Cr, Fe, Co, Cu, Zn, Se, Sr, Zr, Ag, Cd, Sn, Te, Au, Pb. A rather arbitrary four-peak curve is drawn through these points: for instance, a peak is given where Fe, Co, Cu, and Zn stand almost in a straight line across a range of ~500. Similarly misleading curves were offered in Miley's Second Preprint, summarizing experimental runs with six kinds of beads. So, naturally, like the pedantic Talmudic scholar I am in some bygone lifetime, I checked out the various graphs in Second Preprint. Viola! On page 10, Figure 4, Production Rate for palladium Run #11, what do I find-- dare you guess!-- but the very same collection of data points and precisely the same gratiously added curve. Some of the data points are listed as numbers in Table 3 on page 6: Yield for NAA Elements, where nine elements are listed for all six kinds of beads, but only as the difference between before and after, without the before and after data being listed. There are 45 postive values, and, of all things, 4 negative values. Anyways, the palladium values include a substantial midrange value for Ni production. But Ni is not included on either Fig. 4 in Second Preprint or in Fig. 2 of Energy Gain, where it would lie between Cu and Zn at the top of the "second" peak and thus tend to substantiate the reality of that peak. But Ni is included for Run # 11 in Figure 2 of Second Preprint, which shows Production Rate for all six kinds of beads. These graphs have to be doubled in scale via zerox, and studied very carefully, but the identity of Run # 11 can be indubitably established. You do trust me? Don't you? This graph excludes O and adds Mn and Mo, I surmise. However, in the same paper, Figure 4. does not include Mn, Mo, and, as I already mentioned, Ni, and the point for O is unclear. Energy Gain omits Ni and Mo in its Fig. 2, and mislablels P as a second Si point. About Run # 11, Second Preprint says: "Loading of hydrogen into the thin-film...requiring several hours...Run times of several weeks were typical...211 hours...0.1--0.9 W [ exactly the same integer values as for three other runs]...electrical input power of approximately 0.06W...2000 A [equals 200 pm]...The PS/P (palladium) core experiments [Notice the plural] (Fig. 4) also show a "four-peak" behavior, but, unlike the corresponding Ni runs, the amplitudes of the peaks decrease progressively in going to high-Z." In Second Preprint, Figure 5: "Summary of isotope shifts for all runs as measured by SIMS", gives Difference in % (SIMS - Natural) against Mass Number (A). Even doubled in scale, I can establish little about Run # 11. A point labeled Te may be from Run # 11, and is at about +55 %. For all six types of beads, dozens of values outside + or - 15 % are plotted. What must we conclude about the credibility of "Infinite Energy" magazine, when radical reports are published without reasonable scrutiny either prior or post publication? Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 03:33:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA07459; Tue, 27 May 1997 03:32:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 03:32:20 -0700 Date: 27 May 97 06:31:15 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: SMOT query Message-ID: <970527103115_100433.1541_BHG50-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Il4KC2.0.Qq1.qWhYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One thing I'm not quite clear on. I had the impression from earlier comments that the SMOT (in its completed, 4-ramp form) is intended to keep on running, with the ball continually cycling around the ramps and through its starting point. Is that the idea, is that the claim? Since people seem to be having considerable success with replicating the basic single-ramp system, then I'm getting more interested. As far as I can see, if the ball starts from rest, finishes up at its starting height, and yet rolls clear of the magnets, then there is a real puzzle here to be solved - even before the multi-ramp system is revealed. Is that not correct? Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 04:35:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA12252; Tue, 27 May 1997 04:34:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 04:34:29 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:35:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Ref. W.D.Bauer Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"eptVd.0.M_2.4RiYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Larry Wharton, I think, Has he built the system released in paper http://www.overunity.de/bauer/index.html? What are his experimental facilities? What are his academic facilities (libraries, computing power etc.)? How long has he been working on this? What are his current thoughts? Has he attempted mainstream publication? Who else is working in this field - specifically mixtures or constant entropy systems? (Do they have a separate discussion group?) Do they consider any of the material patentable? Don't take my manner of interogation as aggressive, these are questions to the point which I'd like answers to, please. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 05:00:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA20574; Tue, 27 May 1997 04:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 04:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <338AACE8.A2F04E09 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:44:08 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT query X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970527103115_100433.1541_BHG50-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7UNz-1.0.N15.EniYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > As far as I > can see, if the ball starts from rest, finishes up at its starting > height, and yet rolls clear of the magnets, then there is a real puzzle > here to be solved - even before the multi-ramp system is revealed. > > Is that not correct? No exactly, because the ball does not run away from magnets on the exit. It's need some work to free the ball from the field where it is dropped. I think it is not easy to arrange a curved rail to transfer the kinetic energy of the ball to overcome the field in a one ramp setup. But the second ramp's field facilitate the runaway and the third and forth ramps are intended to guaranty the runaway even on a not well optimized setup. I don't know whether the final SMOT is closing the loop. I think it is up to us to improve it. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 06:15:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA22187; Tue, 27 May 1997 06:13:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 06:13:46 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:13:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705271313.IAA06437 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: SMOT query Resent-Message-ID: <"Hgwrr1.0.bQ5.9ujYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:31 AM 5/27/97 EDT, Chris wrote: >As far as I >can see, if the ball starts from rest, finishes up at its starting >height, and yet rolls clear of the magnets, then there is a real puzzle >here to be solved Unless, as was the case with the TOMI device, you have to do work on the ball to place it in the starting position. This whole thing HAS gotten interesting. A good while ago I led a campaign to cease discussion of the theory of o-u magnetic devices on Vortex. In essence, I told Greg to go away and come back when he had constructed a device that appeared to be o-u. He claims to have done so...by closing the loop!!! Now I am eager to check him out. We, too, are constructing a SMOT ramp. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 06:26:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA29095; Tue, 27 May 1997 06:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 06:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338ADDB6.1A0B worldonline.nl> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:12:22 +0200 From: Ronald de Mol Organization: World Online X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Hompage update Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ltzSf1.0.V67.h1kYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All. Have just updated my home page. Changed: Where to find the magnets... Add : 8 Quickfield sims. (ball falling from top ramp) (maybe you must use the 'reload key' if you see nothing differend.) See it at HTTP:\\www.worldonline.nl\~catware Thank you Greg for the sims! Also i have finaly found a company here that has the right magnets. (13x10x4.9mm). Pitty that it takes 7-10 day for delivery. I have ordered a whole bunch of them. -- Ronald. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 07:03:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA01969; Tue, 27 May 1997 06:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 06:48:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970527094657_371938368 emout11.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Bart Simon's Paper Resent-Message-ID: <"WwHvB3.0.hU.XOkYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bart, Would you be able to post a text copy of your paper here on Vortex-L as an ordinary email message (or two), for those of us who don't have Microsoft's Word, or who are still in the Stone Age and can't access the Web, where you have posted a formatted copy of the paper. Or does it have too many tables and other stuff that requires formatting? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 07:12:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA04503; Tue, 27 May 1997 07:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338AEA60.7DD0 worldonline.nl> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:06:25 +0200 From: Ronald de Mol Organization: World Online X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hompage update References: <338ADDB6.1A0B worldonline.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"e2-Qd.0.861.vhkYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ronald de Mol wrote: > > Hi All. > > Have just updated my home page. > > > See it at HTTP:\\www.worldonline.nl\~catware > err... :-X See it at HTTP://www.worldonline.nl/~catware -- Ronald. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 07:26:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA29012; Tue, 27 May 1997 07:17:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:17:12 -0700 Message-ID: <338AEC81.2B3 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:45:29 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT query References: <970527103115_100433.1541_BHG50-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zrC3K.0.757.cpkYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > One thing I'm not quite clear on. I had the impression from earlier > comments that the SMOT (in its completed, 4-ramp form) is intended to > keep on running, with the ball continually cycling around the ramps and > through its starting point. The 4 ramp version (Phase 2) is not a closed loop system. It is, like Phase 1, a teaching system designed to build a piece at a time to a closed loop system. We must go through Phase 2 to 4. > Is that the idea, is that the claim? Phase 1 is a simple ramp. Nothing more. But very interesting still, NO? Phase 2 is 4 linked Phase 1 ramps, showing no slowing of the ball as it travels through the linked ramps. That in itself should cause a deal of interest, and discontent! > Since people seem to be having considerable success with replicating the > basic single-ramp system, then I'm getting more interested. As you should. I don't claim anything I can't duplicate. Rev up the brain cells! This is real! > As far as I > can see, if the ball starts from rest, finishes up at its starting > height, and yet rolls clear of the magnets, then there is a real puzzle > here to be solved - even before the multi-ramp system is revealed. The ball will not roll clear in this configuration. It is NOT designed to do so as this is s class 2 ramp (reference my previous corros). It is designed to link. That is the key to the next phase (Phase 2). > Is that not correct? Not quite. Linking is the key, not rolling clear! Think about the physics of the second and third linked ramp and what it means for the ball to travel through those ramps and NOT slow down! > Chris Hi Chris, Its starting to get interesting, Yes? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 07:36:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA07603; Tue, 27 May 1997 07:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: SMOT query To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:29:31 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199705271313.IAA06437 natasha.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at May 27, 97 08:13:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QR_d43.0.js1.w_kYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > Unless, as was the case with the TOMI device, you have to do work on the > ball to place it in the starting position. Actually, I believe the starting point is already within the magnetic field (down the magnetic "hill") so you haven't added energy to the system by placing the ball on the starting point. Given a flat plane leading to the starting point, a ball should be pulled into that position from some distance around. Which means that the magnets could actually do work on the ball. At the entrance end, the analysis is essentially no different than any ferrous object moving closer to the poles of a magnet. All the magic allegedly happens when the ball escapes at the exit. > We, too, are constructing a SMOT ramp. Since Greg's claims are unlikely to be measurement error (either it loops the track or it doesn't) remember that in addition to: 1.) Greg being right 2.) He could be hoaxing us 3.) Or he could be delusional Though it doesn't look like it'll take too long to figure out which of the three is the case. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 07:45:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA00635; Tue, 27 May 1997 07:41:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:41:32 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: SMOT query To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:41:23 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <970527103115_100433.1541_BHG50-1 CompuServe.COM> from "Chris Tinsley" at May 27, 97 06:31:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_E-_k3.0.Z9.QAlYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > As far as I > can see, if the ball starts from rest, finishes up at its starting > height, and yet rolls clear of the magnets, then there is a real puzzle > here to be solved - even before the multi-ramp system is revealed. > Is that not correct? I believe so. I think the alleged miracle occurs at the exit, so the use of multiple ramps is just to get the thing in a circle. I figure that if you could avoid the rolling resistance, you could get the thing to work in a single ramp. Have the ball exit, drop down a J shaped channel that returns it back to the starting point. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 07:51:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA09358; Tue, 27 May 1997 07:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338AF1DB.78D1 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:08:19 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT query References: <199705271313.IAA06437 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RBmB-.0.2I2.v9lYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 06:31 AM 5/27/97 EDT, Chris wrote: > > >As far as I > >can see, if the ball starts from rest, finishes up at its starting > >height, and yet rolls clear of the magnets, then there is a real puzzle > >here to be solved The SMOT ramp is a class 2 ramp (drops to entry level but doesn't roll clear) > Unless, as was the case with the TOMI device, you have to do work on the > ball to place it in the starting position. No Way, You have to restrain it from moving into the ramp. > This whole thing HAS gotten interesting. A good while ago I led a campaign > to cease discussion of the theory of o-u magnetic devices on Vortex. In > essence, I told Greg to go away and come back when he had constructed a > device that appeared to be o-u. He claims to have done so...by closing the > loop!!! Now I am eager to check him out. We, too, are constructing a SMOT > ramp. Good on you! > Scott Little Hi Scott, Its NOT like Tomi, its really real. Really glad to have you on board. Ask away, any questions, I really want this to be proved outside my house. But you have to BUILD the devices. Thats really important. Maybe ACC will write 4001, or a mod of 2001 based on SMOT and SHARP energy systems. This is the best news I have had since I closed the loop the first time and dropped my patent attorney jaw to the floor. SMOT is a Toy, but as others have stated, it is real and will change the world IF WE REALLY WANT IT TO DO SO! Thats what I, and all the rest of you really want. Yes? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 08:02:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA10191; Tue, 27 May 1997 07:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: 27 May 97 10:42:09 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Arata Replications? Message-ID: <970527144208_72240.1256_EHB123-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"uk77r3.0.9V2.lDlYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Tom Stolper asked: Do you know why no one in Japan has tried to replicate the high XSH results that [Arata] has reported? As far as I know, nobody has tried to replicate him. His device is complicated. He has been very secretive. He published details for the first time this year in the Journal of High Temperature Society. I doubt there is enough information in that article to allow a replication experiment. Arata strikes me as highly political, jealous, and obsessed with academic priority and fame. By all accounts he is a top notch engineering scientist who has made major contributions to welding technology. They named a building after him on the campus of Osaka National University, and an international research society established an annual prize in his name. I guess anyone that high in the academic pecking order must know how to play politics take care of himself. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 08:23:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA08431; Tue, 27 May 1997 08:18:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:18:23 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:15:14 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"TJ92d1.0.b32.zilYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FWIW: It works, accelerates uphill against gravity. JHS On Tue, 27 May 1997, John Logajan wrote: > Scott Little wrote: > > Unless, as was the case with the TOMI device, you have to do work on the > > ball to place it in the starting position. > > Actually, I believe the starting point is already within the magnetic > field (down the magnetic "hill") so you haven't added energy to the > system by placing the ball on the starting point. Given a flat plane > leading to the starting point, a ball should be pulled into that > position from some distance around. Which means that the magnets > could actually do work on the ball. At the entrance end, the analysis > is essentially no different than any ferrous object moving closer > to the poles of a magnet. All the magic allegedly happens when the > ball escapes at the exit. > > > We, too, are constructing a SMOT ramp. > > Since Greg's claims are unlikely to be measurement error (either it > loops the track or it doesn't) remember that in addition to: > > 1.) Greg being right > 2.) He could be hoaxing us > 3.) Or he could be delusional > > Though it doesn't look like it'll take too long to figure out > which of the three is the case. > > -- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 08:33:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA16600; Tue, 27 May 1997 08:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:21:46 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970527112007_122747768 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: BLP Resent-Message-ID: <"qEx-y1.0.D34.1mlYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peter I believe that BLP may have a good technology and a bad theory. the shrinking atom theroy stinks. 1. No shrunken atoms are observed in the universe. The 21 CM emission line that is observed by radio telescopes is produced by the flipping of the ground state ordinary hydrogen. No odd ball emissions have been detected. If the hydoino is energinically favorable it should be everywhere. 2. The process will not produce any enegy even if it could happen. The Heisenberg Uncertanty relationship states that there is a minimum amout of energy requied to confine a particle. The confining of a particle to a dimension less than the radious of the ground state of the atom is an endothermic process. 3. The Blacklight theroy violates everything that is know about statistics. Photons have interger spins and are bossons. The emission required to drop to a sub degenerate orbit would produce a photon with a non-integer spin. Again a real no no. My idea about the length of the spin orbit force increasing within an electron condensation is better. 1. It violates no conservation laws or statistical conventions. 2. It is consitant with the Tempere resutls. (gravity follows the same rules) 3. It involves a force with a longer range of interaction than the coulombic and therefore can account for the lack of signature. 4. It involves the nuclear spin orbit force which tends to produce stable elements. fzstuff on billb From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 08:45:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA19367; Tue, 27 May 1997 08:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705271539.IAA21343 sweden.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: SMOT QField Sims Resent-Message-ID: <"lfooW.0.Vk4.j1mYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Greg, The QField Sims look very interesting at Jean-Louis Naudin's web site: http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/smot1qfl.htm I found the flux density curve w/ball unusual. It looks like a locally induced "hole" in the mag. assy. with the ball always "falling inward" into the hole. Interesting! Any conventional theory for explaination of this? Best Regards, Michael From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 08:46:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA19566; Tue, 27 May 1997 08:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338AF692.5A58 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:28:26 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT query References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dboNq2.0.En4.B2mYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > > Chris Tinsley wrote: > > As far as I > > can see, if the ball starts from rest, finishes up at its starting > > height, and yet rolls clear of the magnets, then there is a real puzzle > > here to be solved - even before the multi-ramp system is revealed. > > Is that not correct? > > I believe so. I think the alleged miracle occurs at the exit, so the > use of multiple ramps is just to get the thing in a circle. I figure > that if you could avoid the rolling resistance, you could get the thing > to work in a single ramp. Have the ball exit, drop down a J shaped > channel that returns it back to the starting point. > > -- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - Hi John, Long ramps are a bitch. To obtain the necessary mag differential across the ball on a long ramp and get release is not EASY. Been there, done that. Stay with the program, then go off at a tangent. Have you got your single SMOT ramp working yet? If not why not? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 08:46:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA19575; Tue, 27 May 1997 08:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338AF9B3.34F5 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:41:47 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT query References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lAJZa2.0.Yn4.D2mYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > > Scott Little wrote: > > Unless, as was the case with the TOMI device, you have to do work on the > > ball to place it in the starting position. > > Actually, I believe the starting point is already within the magnetic > field (down the magnetic "hill") so you haven't added energy to the > system by placing the ball on the starting point. Given a flat plane > leading to the starting point, a ball should be pulled into that > position from some distance around. Which means that the magnets > could actually do work on the ball. At the entrance end, the analysis > is essentially no different than any ferrous object moving closer > to the poles of a magnet. All the magic allegedly happens when the > ball escapes at the exit. > > > We, too, are constructing a SMOT ramp. > > Since Greg's claims are unlikely to be measurement error (either it > loops the track or it doesn't) remember that in addition to: > > 1.) Greg being right > 2.) He could be hoaxing us > 3.) Or he could be delusional > > Though it doesn't look like it'll take too long to figure out > which of the three is the case. > > -- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - Hi John, Why wonden which of the three is true? BUILD a ramp! Then link then in Phase 2. Find out yourself. Its really simple and cheap! Do it. NOW! Stop talking, BUILD a ramp. Watch it work. Pour water on brain to stop meltdown, then think outside the square! But don't ever think of being a critic without BUILDING a SMOT ramp. That's not giving me or you a fair go! Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 08:48:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA19497; Tue, 27 May 1997 08:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705271539.IAA21413 sweden.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: SMOT query Resent-Message-ID: <"pkrP71.0.Fm4.12mYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott, Glad to hear your building a SMOT unit. It works and is simple to build by following Greg's design. The metric size magnets will be have to be special ordered overseas. I'm trying locally available english size magnets (0.375"w x 0.25"t x 0.75"l) with 0.5" steel ball and all other components in english dimensions. It should work just as well. Best Regards, Michael At 08:13 AM 5/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >At 06:31 AM 5/27/97 EDT, Chris wrote: > >>As far as I >>can see, if the ball starts from rest, finishes up at its starting >>height, and yet rolls clear of the magnets, then there is a real puzzle >>here to be solved > >Unless, as was the case with the TOMI device, you have to do work on the >ball to place it in the starting position. > >This whole thing HAS gotten interesting. A good while ago I led a campaign >to cease discussion of the theory of o-u magnetic devices on Vortex. In >essence, I told Greg to go away and come back when he had constructed a >device that appeared to be o-u. He claims to have done so...by closing the >loop!!! Now I am eager to check him out. We, too, are constructing a SMOT >ramp. > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 09:05:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA16373; Tue, 27 May 1997 09:00:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:00:02 -0700 Message-ID: <338B048F.3F30 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:28:07 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Don't call it a toy! References: <970527114832_843363601 emout07.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"l32XW3.0.b_3.0KmYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HLafonte aol.com wrote: > > Greg, > What about the material I mentioned? It is used by Mr. Muller on his > device. Are you familiar with the material? > Butch Hi Butch, No I am not using his ferrite material. To me the only NEW element of his material is the ability of it to be moulded. ALL the rest is OLD hat, nothing new despite the web site claims. But I don't think many injection moulders would want such an abrassive material injected through their system. Soft plastic beads cause enough problems. By the way, my balls are made of chrome plated steel. Well the ones I run on the tracks anyway! Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 09:12:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA17635; Tue, 27 May 1997 09:02:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:02:43 -0700 Date: 27 May 97 12:00:02 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: CF cannot be a subtle effect Message-ID: <970527160002_72240.1256_EHB16-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"SL_7O1.0.TJ4.YMmYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Barry Merriman makes the same mistakes other people have made hundreds of times. I am tired of these fruitless debates about CF. I no longer take part in them. But I will take a moment to correct a few things here. He writes: But I have no instinctive fear of excess heat, in any case. It in itself could be real but have mundane if subtle causes. 1. It has to be real, or else calorimetry does not work, and experimental science has no meaning. I am compelled to believe high sigma, replicated experiments. Not to believe them is to abandon rationality and to embrace superstition. 2. The cause cannot be mundane, because the heat sometimes goes on hundreds of thousands of times longer any mundane cause would allow. A match cannot burn for week. 3. In the major experiments the effect is not subtle, it is large and easily detected. Subtle causes cannot produce gross effects. Some of McKubre's graphs are a good example. The noise level is a small perturbation at the bottom of the graph, and the excess heat line is up at the top, many times higher than the noise level. Of course, an error like a wet thermistor might produce a large, spurious result. But we know that all possible errors have been eliminated; see point # 1. When an experiment is widely replicated using different equipment and techniques, that proves experimental error has been eliminated. That is the only way we can ever be sure errors are eliminated. It is the only method, but it is foolproof. In five hundred years of experimental science, no high sigma experimental error has ever survived widespread, continued replication. Of course many conceptual errors have survived! Countless errors of interpretation have flourished. In hot air sciences like economics and sociology funny ideas can live forever, because you cannot test ideas by experiment. In physics, occasionally flurries of bogus replications of "subtle" effects like polywater or N-Rays have survived briefly. If CF was subtle -- as Merriman claims -- then it might have fallen into this category in late 1989 when only ~50 people had replicated. But it is not and never has been subtle, so it cannot be anything like polywater or N-Rays. I have said all of this so many times, I will not repeat it here again, or engage in a debate. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 09:16:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA20068; Tue, 27 May 1997 09:10:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:10:56 -0700 Message-ID: <338B0722.3836 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:39:06 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT query References: <199705271539.IAA21413 sweden.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5mNAM1.0.Jv4.EUmYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Randall wrote: > > Hi Scott, > > Glad to hear your building a SMOT unit. It works and is simple to build by > following Greg's design. > > The metric size magnets will be have to be special ordered overseas. I'm > trying locally available english size magnets (0.375"w x 0.25"t x 0.75"l) > with 0.5" steel ball and all other components in english dimensions. It > should work just as well. > > Best Regards, > Michael Hi Michael, Should be close enough. Just remember, the ramp should be 13-15mm shorter than the magnet arrays and try to stay around 100-110mm length for the arrays. Believe it or not, longer arrays are harder to adjust. Seems the flux differential for a set width of magnet is fairly constant (top to bottom), but the differential across the ball is related to is ratio to the array length and as the pull up the ramp is related to the square of the flux differential across the ball, shorter ramps work better than longer ramps. IE, less magnets result in a higher lift. Seems strange unless you remember I predicted that any OU system would work in reverse to common reasoning and logic. You might wish to publish the source and cost of the magnets you have found. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 09:19:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA25685; Tue, 27 May 1997 09:11:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:11:35 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:10:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970527120949_70265631 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Resent-Message-ID: <"3aA4U2.0.2H6.nUmYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 97-05-27 11:33:27 EDT, you write: << Subj: BLP << Date: 97-05-27 11:33:27 EDT << From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com << Peter I believe that BLP may have a good technology and a bad theory. << the shrinking atom theroy stinks. >> Frank, Where is all the heat coming from then? Vince Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 09:19:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA25868; Tue, 27 May 1997 09:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:12:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705271104.ZM23729 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:04:47 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: (Fwd) NEWSpot Morning Edition 5/27/97 Cc: richards me525.ecg.csg.mot.com (Richard Smolen) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"3TGzh2.0.2K6.UVmYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: *** Climate said warming because of sun, not man The world's climate is being heated up by the sun, not by the actions of mankind, according to a book published this month. "The Manic Sun," by scientific journalist Nigel Calder, says the "greenhouse" theory which reckons that increases in world temperatures result from excessive burning of fossil fuels is wrong and has been sustained by science corrupted by pressure from politicians. Any climate warming has occurred because of the influence of the sun, responsible for fluctuations in temperature and weather for centuries. For the full text story, see http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=3132200-e2e -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 09:33:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA28125; Tue, 27 May 1997 09:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338B0A10.12AE microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:51:36 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT QField Sims References: <199705271539.IAA21343 sweden.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cSOhO2.0.Nt6.fgmYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Randall wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > The QField Sims look very interesting at Jean-Louis Naudin's web site: > > http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/smot1qfl.htm > > I found the flux density curve w/ball unusual. It looks like a locally > induced "hole" in the mag. assy. with the ball always "falling inward" into > the hole. Interesting! Any conventional theory for explaination of this? > > Best Regards, > Michael Hi Michael, I have confirmed that the Qfield sims are correct. The "Hole" is caused by the return fields of the side magnets (they "Flow" in opposite directions). The "Hole" size and mag field contours are related to magnet geometry and spacing. The SMOT design looks simple, but as time goes on, we will see that a LOT of time and energy has gone into the design. Remember than null fields are an easy exit enemy as the quick mag field contour drop off is like hitting a brick wall to the ball. The linked field xy plot shows the linked case will result in a easier exit than if the linked ramp was not present, but the up the ramp performance will suffer and the magnet spacing (top and bottom) will have to be closed up to compensate for the effect of the linked ramp. Soon, you will understand why I used balsa and straight pins to build my mag array supports and adjustment system from. Been there, done that. Best regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 09:35:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA25481; Tue, 27 May 1997 09:29:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:29:46 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC6AC3.861632E0 ppp180.enterprise.net> From: Mike Butcher To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Cc: "'freenrg-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: SMOT query and Toad Essence Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:28:42 +0100 Encoding: 23 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"DnImB1.0.vD6.ulmYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Greg, Thank you for your continuing support and encouragement and although I am eager to build the ramp I am having immense difficulty on getting hold of any quantity of magnets here in the UK. I am even having problems with the 12 mil rail. The wood - no problem I don't want you to think I'm a complete failure. I have located fridge magnets but they seem to incorporate Bugs Bunny/Deputy Dog moldings and I can see myself having to explain to people how an unknown energy source is pushing the ball round the secret being the correct positioning of rows of miscellaneous fictional cartoon characters. What I am getting round to is I expect I will eventually locate the components but could you possibly give a list of materials needed to complete the whole project as I don't relish the idea of thinking that I've got it all sorted out only to find out that to close the loop I have to start searching for "Essence of Toad" or "Virgin's Toe Nail Clippings". Thanks again, Mike Butcher From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 09:59:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA30299; Tue, 27 May 1997 09:51:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:51:46 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:51:33 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705271651.LAA28558 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: SMOT query Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"VtrAL3.0.KP7.X4nYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:08 AM 5/28/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: >No Way, You have to restrain it from moving into the ramp. I see that. Logajan is correct in that the "trick" will be to get the ball away from the far end of the ramp. >SMOT is a Toy, but as others have stated, it is real and will change the >world IF WE REALLY WANT IT TO DO SO! I want it to do so. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 10:03:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA31375; Tue, 27 May 1997 09:57:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:57:20 -0700 Message-ID: <338B1203.265A microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:25:31 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT query and Toad Essence References: <01BC6AC3.861632E0 ppp180.enterprise.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1x6AX2.0.yf7.j9nYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Butcher wrote: > > Dear Greg, > > Thank you for your continuing support and encouragement and although I am > eager to build the ramp I am having immense difficulty on getting hold of > any quantity of magnets here in the UK. I am even having problems with the > 12 mil rail. The wood - no problem I don't want you to think I'm a > complete failure. > > I have located fridge magnets but they seem to incorporate Bugs > Bunny/Deputy Dog moldings and I can see myself having to explain to people > how an unknown energy source is pushing the ball round the secret being the > correct positioning of rows of miscellaneous fictional cartoon characters. > > What I am getting round to is I expect I will eventually locate the > components but could you possibly give a list of materials needed to > complete the whole project as I don't relish the idea of thinking that I've > got it all sorted out only to find out that to close the loop I have to > start searching for "Essence of Toad" or "Virgin's Toe Nail Clippings". > > Thanks again, > > Mike Butcher Hi Mike, Ok, Here it a complete list for the SMOT Phase 1 device : 1) 64 x 13x10x4mm Ceramic Magnets (fridge type), 2) 1 x 100x267x3mm Balsa Sheet, 3) 1 x 110x12x12mm Alum "U" channel, (length to be 13-15mm shorter than magnet arrays), 4) 1 x 12mm dia Steel ball bearing (chrome plated), (More to play drop the ball) 5) 2 x 3x10x104mm Steel Backing Plates, 5) 1 x Balsa Knife, 6) 1 x Hacksaw, 7) 1 x Sheet Sandpaper (Medium grit), 8) 1 x 3ml Tube Superglue, 9) 4 x Straight Pins, 10) 1 x Ruler (To mark out mag array adjustment pin holes), 11) 1 x Small Flat Metal File, That should about do it. Sorry I didn't think to do this before. (SMOT web sites, please include this table) Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 10:22:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA02688; Tue, 27 May 1997 10:13:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:13:26 -0700 Message-ID: <338B15CE.4311 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:41:42 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT query and Toad Essence References: <01BC6A85.9612F270 ristra.ucdavis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ja6fS1.0.of.pOnYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: > > Greg, I think Mike was looking for a list that would cover all the way through Closing the Loop. > > Dan Hi Dan, Not so quick. One step at a time. There is much to learn first. There are no free lunches here. All will be revealed (well really most of it is out already, in bits and pieces), but first you must BUILD and learn how to adjust SMOT ramps. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 10:43:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA00911; Tue, 27 May 1997 10:06:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:06:53 -0700 Message-ID: <338B1447.670A microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:35:11 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT query References: <199705271651.LAA28558 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"c_4qG3.0._D.hInYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 12:08 AM 5/28/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: > > >No Way, You have to restrain it from moving into the ramp. > > I see that. Logajan is correct in that the "trick" will be to get the ball > away from the far end of the ramp. No Problem. Look at the multi exit sims I have posted, The entry field of the linked ramp pulls the ball down and in! Jean-Louis has a soon to be released avi of the ramp link working. > >SMOT is a Toy, but as others have stated, it is real and will change the > >world IF WE REALLY WANT IT TO DO SO! > > I want it to do so. So do I! > Scott Little Hi Scott, Then BUILD and PUBLISH. There is not a lot more to say. Good luck, ask away if you run into problems. Best Regards, Greg PS: I have a feeling we will be seeing each other soon. Another chance to talk of string, sealing wax and other things. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 11:07:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA15037 for billb@eskimo.com; Tue, 27 May 1997 11:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:07:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 11:06:37 1997 Received: from bcarsde4.localhost (mailgate.nortel.ca [192.58.194.74]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA14916 for ; Tue, 27 May 1997 11:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705271806.LAA14916 mx2.eskimo.com> Received: from brtpsa05.rtp.bnr.ca (actually 47.239.68.230) by bcarsde4.localhost; Tue, 27 May 1997 14:03:30 -0400 Received: from bnr.ca by brtpsa05.bnr.ca id <10361-0 brtpsa05.bnr.ca>; Tue, 27 May 1997 14:03:01 -0400 Old-Date: 27 May 1997 14:02 EDT Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: richards me525.ecg.csg.mot.com From: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: (Fwd) NEWSpot Morning Edition 5/27/97 X-Attachments: "ORIGINAL.HEADER" (type: text) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="wHPteLhoy4EwLbZJBYnfnPkYIz07q4aL" X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Diagnostic: Mail coming from a daemon, ignored X-Diagnostic: Possible loopback problem X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: > > This is a MIME Encoded message. If you are reading this text, > then your mail reader does not support the MIME (Multipurpose > Internet Mail Extensions) standard. To take full advantage of > the features of this message, you need to upgrade your mailer to > a MIME V1.0 compliant package. Some parts of this message may > be in human readable form. > > MIME Decoding Utilities > ----------------------- > To make use of this encoded message, you can decode it using > a MIME Decoding utility. The following are some freely available > MIME decoding utilities: > > UNIX Users > ----------- > Metamail : ftp://ftp.bellcore.com/pub/nsb/mm2.7.tar.Z > This is the Metamail source code distribution. > Mpack : ftp://ftp.andrew.cmu.edu/pub/mpack/mpack-1.5-src.tar.Z > Source code for all platforms. > MACINTOSH Users > --------------- > Mpack : ftp://ftp.andrew.cmu.edu/pub/mpack/mpack-1.5-mac.hqx > Contains the Macintosh binaries > PC Users > --------- > Metamail : ftp://ftp.bellcore.com/pub/nsb/mm2.7.dos.zip > This is the MS-DOS binaries > > Mpack : ftp://ftp.andrew.cmu.edu/pub/mpack/mpack15d.zip > This contains the MS-DOS binaries > MIME-Aware Mail User Agents > --------------------------- > Note that the following Mail User Agents support MIME and hence if > one of these are used the message will be automatically decoded > be in a readable state: > Elm Version 2.4 (UNIX) > ftp://ftp.uu.net/networking/mail/elm > Eudora 1.4.4 (Macintosh, MS-Windows) > ftp://ftp.qualcomm.com/quest/eudora/windows/1.4/eudor144.exe > ftp://ftp.qualcomm.com/quest/eudora/mac/1.4/eudora144.hqx > Pegasus mail (MS-DOS, MS-Windows, Macintosh) > ftp://risc.ua.edu/pub/network/pegasus/* > Pine (UNIX) > ftp://ftp.cac.washington.edu/pine/pine.tar.Z > --wHPteLhoy4EwLbZJBYnfnPkYIz07q4aL Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" *** Climate said warming because of sun, not man The world's climate is being heated up by the sun, not by the actions of mankind, according to a book published this month. "The Manic Sun," by scientific journalist Nigel Calder, says the "greenhouse" theory which reckons that increases in world temperatures result from excessive burning of fossil fuels is wrong and has been sustained by science corrupted by pressure from politicians. Any climate warming has occurred because of the influence of the sun, responsible for fluctuations in temperature and weather for centuries. For the full text story, see http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=3132200-e2e -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. --wHPteLhoy4EwLbZJBYnfnPkYIz07q4aL Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Received: from bcarsbf5.localhost (actually bcarsbf5.ott.bnr.ca) by bcarsfbb.ott.bnr.ca; Tue, 27 May 1997 12:35:01 -0400 Received: from mx2.eskimo.com by bcarsbf5.localhost; Tue, 27 May 1997 12:34:41 -0400 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA25867; Tue, 27 May 1997 09:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:12:19 -0700 (PDT) From: John Steck Message-Id: <9705271104.ZM23729 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:04:47 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: (Fwd) NEWSpot Morning Edition 5/27/97 Cc: richards me525.ecg.csg.mot.com (Richard Smolen) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"3TGzh2.0.2K6.UVmYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com --wHPteLhoy4EwLbZJBYnfnPkYIz07q4aL-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 11:07:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA15111 for billb@eskimo.com; Tue, 27 May 1997 11:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:07:20 -0700 (PDT) From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Envelope-From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 11:07:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA15026; Tue, 27 May 1997 11:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Old-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705271807.LAA15026 mx2.eskimo.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: (Fwd) NEWSpot Morning Edition 5/27/97 References: <199705271806.LAA14916 mx2.eskimo.com> In-Reply-To: <199705271806.LAA14916 mx2.eskimo.com> X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: Mail coming from a daemon, ignored X-Diagnostic: Possible loopback problem X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: This is an automated reply. Sorry, you cannot post to vortex-L if you are not a member. If you wish to subscribe, send mail to vortex-L-request eskimo.com with the word "subscribe" in the subject: line of your message. (no quotes around "subscribe") If you *are* subscribed to vortex-L, then your email address may have changed, causing the vortex-L software to no longer recognize you. In this case, send an unsubscribe command from your old address, then subscribe using your new address. See http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html for more info. If you have continuing problems, contact the list owner billb eskimo.com ------------------- returned message follows ------------------- > > This is a MIME Encoded message. If you are reading this text, > then your mail reader does not support the MIME (Multipurpose > Internet Mail Extensions) standard. To take full advantage of > the features of this message, you need to upgrade your mailer to > a MIME V1.0 compliant package. Some parts of this message may > be in human readable form. > > MIME Decoding Utilities > ----------------------- > To make use of this encoded message, you can decode it using > a MIME Decoding utility. The following are some freely available > MIME decoding utilities: > > UNIX Users > ----------- > Metamail : ftp://ftp.bellcore.com/pub/nsb/mm2.7.tar.Z > This is the Metamail source code distribution. > Mpack : ftp://ftp.andrew.cmu.edu/pub/mpack/mpack-1.5-src.tar.Z > Source code for all platforms. > MACINTOSH Users > --------------- > Mpack : ftp://ftp.andrew.cmu.edu/pub/mpack/mpack-1.5-mac.hqx > Contains the Macintosh binaries > PC Users > --------- > Metamail : ftp://ftp.bellcore.com/pub/nsb/mm2.7.dos.zip > This is the MS-DOS binaries > > Mpack : ftp://ftp.andrew.cmu.edu/pub/mpack/mpack15d.zip > This contains the MS-DOS binaries > MIME-Aware Mail User Agents > --------------------------- > Note that the following Mail User Agents support MIME and hence if > one of these are used the message will be automatically decoded > be in a readable state: > Elm Version 2.4 (UNIX) > ftp://ftp.uu.net/networking/mail/elm > Eudora 1.4.4 (Macintosh, MS-Windows) > ftp://ftp.qualcomm.com/quest/eudora/windows/1.4/eudor144.exe > ftp://ftp.qualcomm.com/quest/eudora/mac/1.4/eudora144.hqx > Pegasus mail (MS-DOS, MS-Windows, Macintosh) > ftp://risc.ua.edu/pub/network/pegasus/* > Pine (UNIX) > ftp://ftp.cac.washington.edu/pine/pine.tar.Z > --wHPteLhoy4EwLbZJBYnfnPkYIz07q4aL Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" *** Climate said warming because of sun, not man The world's climate is being heated up by the sun, not by the actions of mankind, according to a book published this month. "The Manic Sun," by scientific journalist Nigel Calder, says the "greenhouse" theory which reckons that increases in world temperatures result from excessive burning of fossil fuels is wrong and has been sustained by science corrupted by pressure from politicians. Any climate warming has occurred because of the influence of the sun, responsible for fluctuations in temperature and weather for centuries. For the full text story, see http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=3132200-e2e -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. --wHPteLhoy4EwLbZJBYnfnPkYIz07q4aL Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Received: from bcarsbf5.localhost (actually bcarsbf5.ott.bnr.ca) by bcarsfbb.ott.bnr.ca; Tue, 27 May 1997 12:35:01 -0400 Received: from mx2.eskimo.com by bcarsbf5.localhost; Tue, 27 May 1997 12:34:41 -0400 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA25867; Tue, 27 May 1997 09:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:12:19 -0700 (PDT) From: John Steck Message-Id: <9705271104.ZM23729 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:04:47 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: (Fwd) NEWSpot Morning Edition 5/27/97 Cc: richards me525.ecg.csg.mot.com (Richard Smolen) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"3TGzh2.0.2K6.UVmYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com --wHPteLhoy4EwLbZJBYnfnPkYIz07q4aL-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 11:10:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA13402; Tue, 27 May 1997 10:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BC6A8C.A161FB10 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "freenrg-l eskimo.com" Cc: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: RE: SMOT query and Toad Essence Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:56:28 -0700 Encoding: 28 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"58S0s2.0.JH3.02oYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: >Dan Quickert wrote: >> >> Greg, I think Mike was looking for a list that would cover all the way through Closing the Loop. >> >> Dan > >Hi Dan, >Not so quick. One step at a time. > >There is much to learn first. > >There are no free lunches here. > >All will be revealed (well really most of it is out already, in bits and >pieces), but first you must BUILD and learn how to adjust SMOT ramps. > > >Best Regards, > Greg Hey Greg, I wasn't looking for any secrets, or even a parts list. Just pointing out that that seemed to be what Mike was asking for. BTW, you said >Not so quick. One step at a time. But I don't need to be quick. I'm always Quicker(t) than most :-). Dan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 11:15:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA14187; Tue, 27 May 1997 11:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: 27 May 97 13:58:44 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: RE: SMOT query and Toad Essence Message-ID: <970527175843_100433.1541_BHG41-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"BPaUG2.0.VT3.26oYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike, > I am even having problems with the 12 mil rail. Try a big B&Q. They have all kinds of U rails and iron strips, and you can buy a ball-catch for a cupboard and - er - 'castrate' it. I bought 14*5mm iron strip, and some 10*13*10*1.5mm channel (the 1.5mm is the wall thickness). And I bought a ball catch which yielded a 13mm(?) ball, which rolls along the track beautifully. Yes, against all reason I've fallen for making a couple of ramps. As to magnets, I have some 12.5*24*2mm NIBs, and I saw someone mentioned that NIB will be OK. I got those from F^2 Magnetics in north Nottingham. Closer to you is a big magnet place whose name I forget, in Sheffield, where the (much cheaper) ferrite ones should be easy to source. The NIBs will be awkward to fit so they touch (naturally, they repel one another), but a spot of Araldite epoxy or perhaps some lashing-down will sort that out. I'll post my results here when I have had a bit of time to work on it. Chris (intrigued despite himself) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 11:42:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA20415; Tue, 27 May 1997 11:32:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:32:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199705271831.LAA13461 popmail.UCSD.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Bart Simon" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:33:18 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Bart Simon's Paper Reply-to: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu CC: Tstolper aol.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <970527094657_371938368 emout11.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Resent-Message-ID: <"6OakK.0.p-4.mYoYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom (and interested Vortexi), > Would you be able to post a text copy of your paper here on Vortex-L > as an ordinary email message (or two), My paper is pretty long (48 pages double-spaced) and heavily footnoted (probably too much so) - the conversion to plain text is not great but readable. I won't post the paper to the list, but i've slapped together an e-mailable version in four parts which i'd be happy to send to those who are still doing the "stone age" thing and want to wade through my rambling. cheers, Bart Simon ============================================ Bart Simon Dept. of Sociology/Science Studies-0533 University of California at San Diego (UCSD) 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA, 92093-0533 phone: 619-534-0491/fax: 619-534-3388 =========================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 11:45:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA19868; Tue, 27 May 1997 11:31:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:31:01 -0700 Message-ID: <338B279D.1258 worldonline.nl> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:27:41 +0200 From: Ronald de Mol Organization: World Online X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au CC: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT query and Toad Essence References: <01BC6AC3.861632E0 ppp180.enterprise.net> <338B1203.265A@microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pQQZe1.0.Bs4.YXoYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > Ok, Here it a complete list for the SMOT Phase 1 device : > > < table snipped > > > Sorry I didn't think to do this before. (SMOT web sites, please include > this table) > > Best Regards, > Greg Hi Greg... Table included. at HTTP://www.worldonline.nl/~catware Some minor changes made to it. -- Ronald. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 11:47:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA20697; Tue, 27 May 1997 11:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: SMOT query To: vortex-l eskimo.com (vortex-l) Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:37:40 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HvdqP2.0.J35.beoYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Forwarded message: >From jlogajan Tue May 27 13:35:27 1997 Subject: Re: SMOT query To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:35:27 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <338AF9B3.34F5 microtronics.com.au> from "Greg Watson" at May 28, 97 00:41:47 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 817 Greg Watson wrote: > Stop talking, BUILD a ramp. Watch it work. Pour water on brain to stop > meltdown, then think outside the square! But don't ever think of being > a critic without BUILDING a SMOT ramp. That's not giving me or you a > fair go! Well, I've already proposed an O/U test for the single ramp and pointed out potential illusions in both the single an multiple ramps. You're response was that the O/U test on a single ramp was "tricky." So I guess I'll wait for the "close the loop" phase when the interesting stuff happens. There'll be no illusions in a ball that makes it through the loop more than once. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 11:57:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA20625; Tue, 27 May 1997 11:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: SMOT QField Sims To: vortex-l eskimo.com (vortex-l) Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:37:20 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3V0zy3.0.B25.GeoYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Forwarded message: >From jlogajan Tue May 27 13:20:42 1997 Subject: Re: SMOT QField Sims To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:20:42 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <338B0A10.12AE microtronics.com.au> from "Greg Watson" at May 28, 97 01:51:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1142 Greg Watson wrote: > Remember than null fields are an easy exit enemy as the quick mag field > contour drop off is like hitting a brick wall to the ball. The linked > field xy plot shows the linked case will result in a easier exit than if > the linked ramp was not present, but the up the ramp performance will > suffer and the magnet spacing (top and bottom) will have to be closed up > to compensate for the effect of the linked ramp. Thus when you finally "close the loop" the "starting point" mag field becomes the new baseline. Conceptually that doesn't seem to change the fact that the "miracle" has to occur per ramp exit, irrespective of the number of ramps you have in series. And speaking of ramps in a series -- again there is the potential for illusion, since the ramps are all adjusted by "feel", one might unintentionally get the ball to move through all four ramps by making each ramp magnetic field stronger than the previous one. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 12:11:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA29959 for billb@eskimo.com; Tue, 27 May 1997 12:11:01 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:11:01 -0700 X-Envelope-From: kurtz asu.edu Tue May 27 12:10:54 1997 Received: from math.la.asu.edu (math.la.asu.edu [129.219.51.75]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA29753 for ; Tue, 27 May 1997 12:10:52 -0700 Message-Id: <199705271910.MAA29753 mx1.eskimo.com> Received: from Kurtz (ss7-03.inre.asu.edu) by math.la.asu.edu with SMTP (1.37.109.24/16.2) id AA263350217; Tue, 27 May 1997 12:10:17 -0700 Old-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:10:17 -0700 X-Sender: kurtz math.la.asu.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: kurtz asu.edu (Lynn Kurtz) Subject: Scott Little testing Newman machine? X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: I recall a week or so ago seeing Scott post a polite request to Mr. Soule to borrow an authentic Newman machine to test. Even volunteered to drive over and pick it up etc. Cynic that I am, I predict that test will never happen. Surprise me, Scott, and tell me that you aren't getting the old run-around, and that the arrangements are underway, etc. --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 12:56:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA02099; Tue, 27 May 1997 12:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: 27 May 97 15:40:07 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Ragland replication status Message-ID: <970527194006_72240.1256_EHB127-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"CWYOZ3.0.hW.5bpYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Chris Tinsley has been working on a replication of the Ragland triode cell experiment for the last month or so. The cell has been turned for just over two weeks. Chris has not reported much here because he is terribly busy, and because there is not a lot to say yet. We have seen no excess heat. Ragland himself has been cooperative and helpful. We have been sending him samples of data and photographs, which Chris scans and sends to me via e-mail. He has been particularly interested in some millisecond measurements of the flip-flop in power levels between the two anodes. Ragland was hoping that this cell would turn on quickly, so he is disappointed. Based on the data, he finds three possible problems with this cell: 1. The electrolyte may have too much lithium. Chris will remove some of the electrolyte and refill with pure heavy water today. None of us can imagine why this would prevent a CF reaction, but we want to make the thing as close as possible to the successful runs reported by Ragland and Cravens. 2. There appears to be an imbalance in field strength and voltage between the right and left anodes. One of them may be a little closer to the cathode than the other. Perhaps the anode wires are bowed in slightly. Moving an anode slightly closer to the cathode produces a large difference in field strength. This is a major problem with ordinary diode cells. 3. He is concerned about something he calls "spreading resistance." I am not sure what he means. He is writing a memo about it. If the cell does not work this week, Chris will unhook it from the calorimeter and try a new replacement cell with another triode. He will ship the first cell back to Ragland for analysis. Ragland will clean it up and install a new triode. We have 5 samples of palladium. Each will each take 2 to 4 weeks to test. Evidently, the triode is not a panacea that fixes all of the materials problem of palladium. But this may be a particularly bad metal sample. Perhaps one or more of the other samples will work well. We will describe this work in the next issue of Infinite Energy. If the cell does not turn on, I think 2 or 3 pages showing the calorimeter, calibration curves, and a joule heater pulse during electrolysis will tell the story. If it begins producing excess heat we will describe everything in considerably more detail. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 13:26:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA07273; Tue, 27 May 1997 13:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: 27 May 97 16:18:35 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: 3 or 4 ramps head to tail? Message-ID: <970527201835_72240.1256_EHB53-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"d3zaA.0.Rn1.V8qYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex John Logajan, who has taken to signing his messages twice -- John Logajan, who has taken to signing his messages twice, says: And speaking of ramps in a series -- again there is the potential for illusion, since the ramps are all adjusted by "feel", one might unintentionally get the ball to move through all four ramps by making each ramp magnetic field stronger than the previous one. Good point! Greg: Is there any reason why four ramps cannot be arranged head to tail, in a loop? Does the ball object to turning 90 degrees after it falls? Would it jump out of the second ramp, and if so, couldn't you prevent this with some kind of cup to catch it? For that matter, you might arrange three ramps in a triangle, instead of four in a square. If you, or anyone else trying this experiment, can close the loop with three or four ramps please do so as soon as possible. This is the acid test. If the ball does not want to take a sharp turn between ramps, I suppose you will need five or six to make a circle. I do not think that we can be so sure about Logajan's earlier statement that a "J" shaped return could make the ball go back to the beginning with only one ramp. It seems to me the magnets above might prevent it from rolling back. A series of ramps seems like a fairer test. The descriptions, schematics, photographs and parts lists have been most helpful. This already takes the prize for the most open, understated, and apparently sane o-u magnetic motor project in history. It is also one of the best cooperative efforts I have seen, reminiscent of the early days in microcomputers. It is a shame CF is so hard to do. However, speaking of history, I believe I have seen schematics for similar magnet-ramp-and-hole gadgets in articles about perpetual motion machines. I recall one in the Scientific American. In other words, people have tried similar approaches many times, with no success. But you never know. Perhaps they never tried this particular design. A slight change can make a world of difference in technology. 99.999% of the time a slight change has a deleterious effect. Years ago this was demonstrated at Intel when the workers ran frozen pizzas through the chip fabrication ovens during slack hours. No kidding! Their clean-room standards were tightened up since then, but several orders of magnitude, I bet. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 13:35:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA11123; Tue, 27 May 1997 13:24:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:24:00 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:29:50 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: Greg Watson cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: There are NO stupid questions (?) In-Reply-To: <338A1339.2C2B microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"UzF_62.0.ij2.UBqYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > > And for the BUILD phase... > > I have earlyer already 2 models made, one with round alnico-5 magnets > > and one with 50x19x5 magnets (Both a succes for a SINGLE model). > > The problem is that I really need the 13x10x5 magnets and I can't find > > them anywhere yet. > > Here comes my problem: In ALL the models I have made and seen, the > > exit point is just before the start of the last magnet. Hopefully there are no stupid questions, but even my wife is excited about building one of these smot1 'toys' QUESTION: are these "bar magnets" like a tootsie roll shape OR Flat and Stacked "Disk (ceramic style)" stack.. Question arises as I SEE "BarS" stack nsnsnsn but NO "North/ South" as in jnaudin pics. My wife says you mean "Flat Round" coin shaped magnets. Of course she's a Chemist(!) so what does she know. Oddly we can both make your mm x mm x mm demensions fit our agrument! :) Thanks ( one of us will take the other out to dinner :) we both win! se ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2 freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 14:14:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA17743; Tue, 27 May 1997 14:07:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:07:10 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:09:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ragland replication status Resent-Message-ID: <"19Wwe2.0.9L4.zpqYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > .......Moving an anode >slightly closer to the cathode produces a large difference in field strength. Not really. Moving the anode or cathode 'slightly closer' produces a correspondingly slight increase in the E field strength. >3. He is concerned about something he calls "spreading resistance." I am not >sure what he means. He is writing a memo about it. Spreading resistance is the resistance encountered by a current flowing into or out of an EXTREMELY SMALL point contact. It should not be an issue in the Ragland cell unless there was a bad wire-to-electrode weld that amounts to an extremely small point contact. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 14:22:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA19476; Tue, 27 May 1997 14:16:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:16:04 -0700 Date: 27 May 97 17:13:10 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: 3 or 4 ramps head to tail? Message-ID: <970527211309_100433.1541_BHG49-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"rark92.0.Am4.JyqYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, You comment on John's interesting point: > And speaking of ramps in a series -- again there is the potential > for illusion, since the ramps are all adjusted by "feel", one > might unintentionally get the ball to move through all four > rampsby making each ramp magnetic field stronger than the > previous one. But this is easily checked by switching ramps around - isn't it? > If you, or anyone else trying this experiment, can close the loop > with three or four ramps please do so as soon as possible. This is > the acid test. I think that we had better wait for Greg's description of the whole thing. For me, if the thing moves a ball from one end of one ramp to the far end of the fourth, with all the rattling and stuff, then I for one will be seriously impressed. Not convinced, because that needs the loop to be closed - but *seriously* impressed. The fact that Rick Monteverde seems to be seeing something interests me a lot. > This already takes the prize for the most open, understated, and > apparently sane o-u magnetic motor project in history. Too right it does. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 14:53:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA21535; Tue, 27 May 1997 14:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:25:54 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Scott Little testing Newman's Machine? Sender: kurtz IMAP2.ASU.EDU To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Simeon for Win32 Version 4.0.9 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: NORMAL X-Authentication: none Resent-Message-ID: <"Qdovv2.0.MG5.6OrYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I recall a week or so ago seeing Scott post a polite request to Mr. Soule to borrow an authentic Newman machine to test. He even volunteered to drive over and pick it up etc. Cynic that I am, I predict that test will never happen. Surprise me, Scott, and tell me that you aren't getting the old run-around, and that the arrangements are underway, etc. -- Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 15:49:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA01255; Tue, 27 May 1997 15:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338B6330.6A5B math.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:41:52 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT query References: <199705271313.IAA06437 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2F8Jp2.0.VJ.cDsYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 06:31 AM 5/27/97 EDT, Chris wrote: > > >As far as I > >can see, if the ball starts from rest, finishes up at its > >starting height, and yet rolls clear of the magnets, > > This whole thing HAS gotten interesting. I am eager to check him out. > We, too, are constructing a SMOT ramp. > Scott, I'm a bit surprised at your surprise. The SMOT looks like a boffo toy, but as described, in itself, it does absolutely nothing unexpected. I mean, the magnets pull a ball up a ramp, and when the ramp dissapears out from under it that ball drops because the magnets are not strong enough to support the full weight of the ball. An extreme case of the same thing would be to put a ball near the edge of a table, and use a magnet to draw it to the edge whence it drops to the floor. Not too remarkable in itself. There is also a very classical (non functional) perpetual motion design based on this technique, where magnet pulls ball up ramp, ramp has hole in it right before magnet, and it drops through the hole and rolls back to the starting point. (Given this, it will be amazing if these similar "new" incarnations have any perpetual behavior) So, the SMOT itslef indicates nothing as far as novel physics is concerned. "Closing the loop" will be the only thing that will indicate anything non-trivial is going on. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 15:53:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA07559; Tue, 27 May 1997 15:44:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:44:28 -0700 Date: 27 May 97 18:42:16 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Ragland replication status Message-ID: <970527224216_100433.1541_BHG56-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"I8Vif1.0.wr1.CFsYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael, > Not really. Moving the anode or cathode 'slightly closer' > produces a correspondingly slight increase in the E field > strength. There may be some communications problems here. Whether or not it is significant I don't know, but certainly this cell is (by comparison with previous ones) "badly balanced", in other words there is quite a big shift in the voltage of the constant-current supplies when the relay switches them between the anodes. Ragland says he can see quite a lot about the state of the cathode by the waveforms at the changeover - but it is possible that there is a significant difference between my Instek 3030 supplies and his lower-limiting voltage HP units. For what it's worth, the other cell's anodes look very much neater than on the one I've been testing. > Spreading resistance is the resistance encountered by a current > flowing into or out of an EXTREMELY SMALL point contact. It > should not be an issue in the Ragland cell unless there was a bad > wire-to-electrode weld that amounts to an extremely small point > contact. Yes, but I think he may be using the term loosely to describe the current flow between the Pt "wire-fence" anodes and the cathode, - I'll wait for his more detailed explanation. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 16:11:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA12441; Tue, 27 May 1997 16:06:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:06:18 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: SMOT query To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:06:11 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199705271651.LAA28558 natasha.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at May 27, 97 11:51:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lAWUI2.0.J23.eZsYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > Logajan is correct in that the "trick" will be to get the ball > away from the far end of the ramp. At least the trick will be manifest when the ball leaves the exit. It would be premature to attempt to localize the actual miracle, since I haven't a clue as to what it could be. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 16:25:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA04807; Tue, 27 May 1997 16:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: SMOT query To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:08:50 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <338B6330.6A5B math.ucla.edu> from "Barry Merriman" at May 27, 97 03:41:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VBirh1.0.1B1.ocsYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: > "Closing the loop" will be the only thing > that will indicate anything non-trivial is going on. Which should resolve the truth/hoax/delusion trilemma. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 16:38:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA19762; Tue, 27 May 1997 16:33:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:33:27 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970527193012.006dffac world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:30:16 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Yp1zl.0.iq4.6zsYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:20 AM 5/27/97 -0400, Frank Z wrote: >the shrinking atom theroy stinks. > >1. No shrunken atoms are observed in the universe. ... > >2. The process will not produce any enegy even if it could happen. The >Heisenberg Uncertanty relationship states that there is a minimum amout of >energy requied to confine a particle. The confining of a particle to a >dimension less than the radious of the ground state of the atom is an >endothermic process. > Frank, First, HU relates energy and time, or momentum and position. Right? You claim energy and position which is different. Could you please derive exactly what you mean, and explain? >My idea about the length of the spin orbit force increasing within an >electron condensation is better. ... > >3. It involves a force with a longer range of interaction than the coulombic >and therefore can account for the lack of signature. > Could you please state how a force accounts for a lack of signature? Thanks. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 16:39:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA20677; Tue, 27 May 1997 16:37:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:37:06 -0700 Date: 27 May 97 19:35:34 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: SMOT query Message-ID: <970527233533_100433.1541_BHG48-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"nVv9L1.0._25.W0tYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Barry, > Scott, I'm a bit surprised at your surprise. Perhaps because it seems from the bit you quote that Scott thought that the ball rolled away after its fall. I certainly did, which is why I mentioned it specifically. For that to happen, its gravitational PE would be unchanged, but its "magnetic field PE" would have *increased* - and the various friction effects would have occurred as well. That would have been "interesting" - very much so. Since the ball doesn't do that, it leaves open the question as to whether its PE with respect to the magnets has fallen or not. Naturally we must assume that it has fallen, at least until or unless we see it go through a succession of these ramps - and even then we have to be cautious, as you say, until/unless the loop is closed. However, if it really does go through several ramps, then I think we would all think it was worth trying to close the loop. > There is also a very classical (non functional) perpetual motion > design based on this technique, where magnet pulls ball up ramp, > ramp has hole in it right before magnet, and it drops through the > hole and rolls back to the starting point. But that one doesn't work, whereas several people have reported the (quite different) single ramp working. > (Given this, it will be amazing if these similar "new" incarnations > have any perpetual behavior) So that's a non-sequitur. > So, the SMOT itslef indicates nothing as far as novel physics is > concerned. And so is that. Look, I have almost zero faith in this, I have just barely enough to play with it. But just because someone is claiming the "impossible" doesn't mean we can relax our standards of debate - does it? Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 16:40:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA19959; Tue, 27 May 1997 16:33:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:33:59 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970527193030.006ab13c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:30:34 +0000 To: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Sociology of CF Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"OdNxt3.0.it4.bzsYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bart, Have read your paper, "Undead Science: Making Sense of Cold Fusion After the (Arti)fact" and have mixed reviews. Sorry for the delay. This only pertains to the version which I read several days ago. From the sociological side, your case seems on the path toward being partially well thought out. On the scientific side, was disappointed. You did not appear to have read or cite the literature except for the "negative" books. You have also not put in the actual scientific thread which really explains why people continue in this field. Corroborating the paucity of the science of cold fusion, Bart, -- and please accept this in a constructive way if possible -- is the following number of times words appear in the version which I read. =============================================== Number of times word appears in Bart Simon's "Undead Science: Making Sense of Cold Fusion After the (Arti)fact" ----------------------------------------------- loading 1 epri 0 electrode 1 pathological science 10 miles 0 us navy 0 ufo 1 ================================================ This analysis demonstrates that real things about cold fusion like loading, Dr. Miles' work, reproductions by the US Navy, electrode conditions, power densities obtained, correlations with autoradiography, etc. (were relatively ignored, while Mr. Simon's apparent thesis that cold fusion is, or may be, a "pathological science" appears to be butressed, reinforced a priori. There is no mention that the power densities of cold fusion have increased from '89 to the present, or that a slow progression of engineering milestones was passed, and in many cases, was published (confer http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html There is no mention of the developing work in cold fusion that demonstrates WHY there where difficulties in '89. IMHO it is unfortunate when sociologists, and scientists, presume that the cf work ended in 1989 or 90. Publications continue briskly in this field. Therefore it would make more sense to examine the papers rather than those few individuals who make a living selling books against cold fusion. IMHO, unfortunately, "Undead Science: Making Sense of Cold Fusion After the (Arti)fact" is fair in the scope it covers, but the conclusion of "undead" science results from inadequate, possibly sophomoric, scholarship about the field. The hypothesis can be shown to be wrong with a long reference list which -- depending upon who chooses the quality positives -- could range from 10 to a few hundred. Barts papers could have been much better with such scientic backbone and the true hypotheses that result from including such "meat", but ends without honestly answering why its author myopically continues along what appears to be a thread of pathological skepticism. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) ------------------------------------- Undead Science: Making Sense of Cold Fusion After the (Arti)fact Bart Simon At 01:20 PM 5/22/97 +0000, you wrote: >Greetings, > >While everyone is figuring out what to read (or not) and working out >the plumbing for the Tower of Pisa :-) I thought I'd add my little >bit for those who are interested. My first attempt at a paper on the >CF episode is forthcoming pending final revisions in the journal >"Social Studies of Science" (with more articles in the works). >In the spirit of vortexism, I thought I should make it available to >folks on this list for reflection, comment and criticism. > >The paper is currently accessible in Word 6.0/7.0 format from: > >http://helix.ucsd.edu/~bssimon/cfstuff.htm > >I would ask that you please not repost or distribute the document. >If you are interested in the paper, but can't read Word files, let >me know and I will gladly send you the text some other way. I've >also posted a little bibliography of various analyses of the CF >controversy from a non-technical perspective. Maybe I'll do >like Barry and review them one of these days. > >Now, one thing I should stress is that this paper was written >specifically with the concerns of sociologists of science in mind, >which doesn't mean that Vortexans won't find it useful, in fact my >hope is that CF researchers will see something interesting there >despite the jargon. Indeed, I think a number of things I talk about >in the paper have been touched on in discussions on this list >already. I should also say that the paper leaves a ton of stuff out; >it is a first stab and a sort of precursor to my doctoral thesis. >But enough apologizing, here's the abstract: > >Bart Simon, "Undead Science: Making Sense of Cold Fusion After the >(Arti)fact", Forthcoming in Social Studies of Science (eventually...) > >This paper considers the problem of how to account for the >observation of research on cold fusion after the closure of the >controversy in 1990. Despite losing the controversy, a few hundred >scientists around the world continue to work on cold fusion. The >issue of whether the controversy is in fact closed and cold fusion is >dead, or whether it is still alive, is considered, and this dualism >is rejected in favor of a hybrid category: cold fusion is undead. >Researchers continue to do scientific work in 1997, but that work is >configured by the experience of having lost the controversy in >1989-90. Consequently, cold fusion is alive, but it is not scientific >life as we, in science studies, typically understand it. > >cheers, >Bart Simon (bssimon helix.ucsd.edu) > > >============================================ >Bart Simon >Dept. of Sociology/Science Studies-0533 >University of California at San Diego (UCSD) >9500 Gilman Dr. >La Jolla, CA, 92093-0533 > >phone: 619-534-0491/fax: 619-534-3388 >=========================================== > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 17:07:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA27532; Tue, 27 May 1997 17:03:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:03:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: naps: Host server.campus.uwindsor.ca claimed to be server.uwindsor.ca Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:02:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Soltis James Dr." To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT query In-Reply-To: <338B6330.6A5B math.ucla.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"LKIfc3.0.6k6.YPtYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry but I'm innundated by Greg's work.Sorry but 'permanent magnets' do store energy and I think that is all that is going on here. They do work, get depleted , and eventually die.I hope ,however that there is something new here- good for him.As an aside (I'm good at this)I wish to bitch. The POOR job done teaching math has its roots in 18th(?17) century France.At this time someone saw this as a technique to emulate the success of religion - namely Bourbaki(?) set up a fabric whereby math was divorced from language( use symbols!only) ,be ridiculously concise, never ever relate math to language,and WE will become the new priesthood(OK , we only have our small share-we have to live with the old priests ).I think, to this day, this stupidity goes on.At some point the proper connection will be made (in schools) between math and langauge.Strangely, the best Math prof I ever had was a priest- maybe he knew what was going on. Jim Soltis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 19:32:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA24257; Tue, 27 May 1997 19:28:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:28:06 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:27:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705280227.VAA20493 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: SMOT query Resent-Message-ID: <"a6tHB1.0.xw5.sWvYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:41 PM 5/27/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: >Scott, I'm a bit surprised at your surprise. The SMOT looks >like a boffo toy, but as described, in itself, it does absolutely >nothing unexpected..... Don't worry, Barry...I'm not slipping or anything... My interest/surprise stems entirely from Greg's claim that he has closed the loop and it will run indefinitely. Since his device is easy to build, I'm just going to play along with his 4-phase introduction of the closed loop device. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 19:51:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA28795; Tue, 27 May 1997 19:48:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:48:02 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:47:22 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705280247.VAA21913 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Scott Little testing Newman's Machine? Resent-Message-ID: <"0V0Sj2.0.j17.WpvYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:25 PM 5/27/97 -0700, Lynn Kurtz wrote: >I recall a week or so ago seeing Scott post a polite request to Mr. Soule to >borrow an authentic Newman machine to test. He even volunteered to drive >over and pick it up etc. > >Cynic that I am, I predict that test will never happen. Thanks for bringing this back up, Lynn. A while back Hal requested plans for the Newman machine from Soule. We received them. We already have Newman's book which contains fairly detailed plans of an earlier version of his machine. However, Hal & I are now agreed that we should not attempt to build our own version of Newman's machine. There are simply too many variables which cannot possibly be described in sufficient detail in the plans to make it unlikely that we would build a non-functional machine. Plus the fact that it would be a lot of work to build one of these machines...they typically have huge coils, containing miles of wire. We remain, however, ready and willing to measure the performance of Newman's own machine. This would be the most efficient way to reach the truth. I believe that Soule suggested that we contact Newman directly. We have not done so due to the press of other projects. To Evan Soule: Evan, I would appreciate it if you would carry our offer of free performance testing to Mr. Newman. Thanks. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 21:52:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA01851; Tue, 27 May 1997 21:49:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:49:52 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705280449.VAA19016 sweden.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: SMOT query Resent-Message-ID: <"9Ia8E1.0.hS.jbxYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Greg, Thanks for the tips. I'm off to "uncharted waters" with my English dimensioned SMOT unit. As you can see, with 0.75" x 5 long = 95.25mm or 0.75" x 6 units long = 114.3mm will be outside your suggested mag assy range of 100 to 110mm. No problem. Us Yanks like "to explore strange new worlds". Will let you all know what I find. Best Regards, Michael At 01:39 AM 5/28/97 +0930, you wrote: >Michael Randall wrote: >> >> Hi Scott, >> >> Glad to hear your building a SMOT unit. It works and is simple to build by >> following Greg's design. >> >> The metric size magnets will be have to be special ordered overseas. I'm >> trying locally available english size magnets (0.375"w x 0.25"t x 0.75"l) >> with 0.5" steel ball and all other components in english dimensions. It >> should work just as well. >> >> Best Regards, >> Michael > >Hi Michael, > >Should be close enough. Just remember, the ramp should be 13-15mm >shorter than the magnet arrays and try to stay around 100-110mm length >for the arrays. > >Believe it or not, longer arrays are harder to adjust. Seems the flux >differential for a set width of magnet is fairly constant (top to >bottom), but the differential across the ball is related to is ratio to >the array length and as the pull up the ramp is related to the square of >the flux differential across the ball, shorter ramps work better than >longer ramps. IE, less magnets result in a higher lift. Seems strange >unless you remember I predicted that any OU system would work in reverse >to common reasoning and logic. > >You might wish to publish the source and cost of the magnets you have >found. > > >Best Regards, > Greg > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 22:35:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA05199 for billb@eskimo.com; Tue, 27 May 1997 22:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:04:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: ben clubelite.com Tue May 27 18:43:03 1997 Received: from terax.clubelite.com ([204.146.156.220]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA22483 for ; Tue, 27 May 1997 18:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jumanji ([204.146.156.217]) by terax.clubelite.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-0U10) with SMTP id AAA350; Tue, 27 May 1997 21:49:34 -0400 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: ben clubelite.com (Ben Tammetta) To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Old-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:38:27 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: 1 ramp works, 2 don't, IT WORKS NOW! Reply-to: tammetta mindspring.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <338A79C9.642 microtronics.com.au> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Message-ID: <19970528014934243.AAA350 jumanji> X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: Hello, SMOT day 2 Just 2 minutes ago on my desk, I got 2 ramps linked. Thanks to a few thought provoking suggestions that were sent. The only thing I changed was the size of the ball: From about 14mm to 19mm. The EXACT hight of the magnets that make up the magnetic array. > Ben Tammetta wrote: > > > > Hello, from Atlanta GA, > > I got all my parts today and spent a lot of time building and playing > > with my SMOT. My parts match Gregs pretty closely. > > 12mm ball, 12mm aluminum channel > > magnets: ~4x19x25mm ( Radio Shack) > > arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1" (almost > > 4x24mm) wide steel backing. And thin plywood and cardboard for the > > base. > The height of the magnet arrays (including the steel backing strip) MUST > be less than 75% (a guess) of the height of the lift. My magnets are > 9mm high for a 12mm lift. Thanks Greg, this was also a key. Since my magnets are about 19mm high. I set my lift to 25mm. 25*75%=18.75 Very Close. An easier way to think of it is (1.333)(height)=(lift) > The steel backing strip MUST be approx the same height as the magnet > arrays or the mag field contours will not be correct. Mine is 10mm. Mine extent about 5mm above the magnets... might work better if I used a closer match. > > The higest I could get the 12mm Steel ball to climb was 12mm. It > > would climb to the top drop off and roll away...... (as long as there > > was not another track there)! > > > > When I put another piece of the track, where the ball drops off, > > to see if it would escape the magnetic field... it > > would most often just stop right there. The top of the seconrd track > > just fit under the bottom of the first track. The farthest the ball > > would get on the second track was just 5mm and then bounce right > > back. And that much was very hard to achieve. > Build as the spec, I promise the ramps will link. Many others have been > able to get this working. Yes, Good suggestion or at least to scale Once I got the right size ball I tuned 2 ramps to the correct specs, carefully pushed them together... and within a few minutes it was working. The funny part :) When I realized I needed bigger balls :) I called all over looking for them with no luck. The answer ended up in my hand :) Inside the mouse I was using :) I took out the tracking ball, scalped it with a razor blade and picked it apart, polished the rubber bits off with a brown paper bag... and wala. 19mm shinny steel ball. With the larger ball I was able to raise my lift 13mm higher, enough to link the ramps. In conclusion. For those gathering parts and having to scale the system, I would have to recommend the following: 1. That the ball diameter match the height of the magnetic array magnets. 2. Set your lift to (1.33)x(height of magnets) = LIFT Example: (1.33)x(19mm)~=25.33 3 USA Radio Shack magnet users, Use 35 magnets in each half of the array. four wide and five long. this will make your array 5 inches long (225mm) (I hope we can shorten this) .... and then skin your mouse :) Greg, can you come up with some more guidelines for scaling the rest of the SMOT so people having a hard time finding exact parts can try scaling instead. I'll try to fix up my SMOT some and post some AVI's and pictures soon. The loop is getting closer. Ben ben clubelite.com ###################### # Ben Tammetta # # ben clubelite.com # ###################### From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 27 23:36:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA23500; Tue, 27 May 1997 23:31:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:31:28 -0700 Date: 28 May 97 02:29:26 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Subject: Re: Private Posts Message-ID: <970528062925_100060.173_JHB67-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"py0_w2.0.6l5._4zYp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg, Just to let you know that the volume of your phantom private mail is still too high, and I have set my OLR to delete private mail from you for the time being. Nothing personal! So any correspondence will have to be via vortex-l. Regards, Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 01:00:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA31430; Wed, 28 May 1997 00:56:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:56:39 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970528075630.00664a9c atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 03:56:30 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Re: BLP Resent-Message-ID: <"p43ip.0.yg7.sK-Yp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz writes: >At 11:20 AM 5/27/97 -0400, Frank Z wrote: > >>the shrinking atom theroy stinks. >> >>1. No shrunken atoms are observed in the universe. ... > >> >>2. The process will not produce any enegy even if it could happen. The >>Heisenberg Uncertanty relationship states that there is a minimum amout of >>energy requied to confine a particle. The confining of a particle to a >>dimension less than the radious of the ground state of the atom is an >>endothermic process. >> > >Frank, > >First, HU relates energy and time, or momentum and position. Right? > >You claim energy and position which is different. Could you please >derive exactly what you mean, and explain? Mitchell, since you are an expert on the CF subject, what is your opinion of Mills' lower-energy-states-for-hydrogen theory. Note that it seems to me that Mills' explanation is attractive because it seems to provide a means to answer the great variability of results reported for CF experiments: 1. CF is typically explained as a fusion process, but although there are often fusion products in CF experiments, the measured amounts of fusion products are as a rule not commensurate to the excess heat produced by the experiment. On the other hand, if one allows Mills' explanation, then the fusion products can be seen as secondary reaction products produced by the UV energy released by the Mills' process -- and in this case the measured amounts of fusion products would tend to be substantially less than the amount that would be commensurate to the excess heat, and this is what the CF experiments actually show. And this also explains why such a wide variety of different fusion products seem to be produced: the fusion products are opportunistic and depend on the material in the cell at the points where the Mills' UV energy is being produced. 2. Aside from the relatively low levels of fusion products, other reaction products, aside from the excess heat, are as a rule absent or almost completely absent from CF experiments: x-rays, neutrons, etc. If fusion were the original source of the excess heat in CF, then many physicists have argued over the years that these other energetic reaction products should be seen, but as a rule they are not seen, or they are seen at levels far below the levels that are commensurate to the excess heat for the experiment. On the other hand, if one allows Mills' explanation, then the invisibility of the primary reaction product is completely explained since the UV output by the Mills' reaction is absorbed by the surrounding matter before it can be measured. And it is this absorption which accounts for the heat and the wide array of the other measured reaction products (fusion and fission products, typically). Anyway, the above considerations are why the Mills' theory seems attractive to me at the moment. I would appreciate your comments as to what mistakes I am making in my superficial analysis and/or why Mills' theory cannot be right on other grounds than the ones I am considering. Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 01:43:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA04612; Tue, 27 May 1997 22:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970527202634.00ad09e4 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:26:39 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: SMOT Phase 1, 2 & 3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"GjnIt3.0.Z31.IbxYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For the record: I had success going all the way to phase #3 (Please don't ask me to reveal the details of #2 and #3, that would upset Greg's plan) I am using NdFeB grade-39 magnets, glass V channel and glass ball filled with iron powder all mounted on a plexiglass base. In phase #1 the SMOT ramp works every time and provides over 2inches of lift on a 1" (25mm) ball In Phase #2 the ramps (4pcs) link reliably and allow the ball to traverse all of them without slowing In Phase #3 a new construction of the ramp is used, but it still behaves like the ramp from phase #1 (ie. reliable lift & exit). The tuning experience gained in #1 is vital in adjusting the new ramp. I am only guessing that Greg will call this Phase #3 In Phase #4 the new ramps (4pcs) are joined and the loop is supposed to be closed. I was not successful at this step (probably engineering problems), I am getting partial success though. Note: I am not following Greg's directions at this point. The idea to link 4 ramps from Phase #2 at 90 degree angle does not work. I tried it, Greg tried it and we came to a conclusion that the ball has to move away from the ramp in the 3rd dimension (up/down) not sideways but parallel to the ramp's length. In order to link the 4 ramps into a loop you will have to wait for the secret in Phase #3 & #4. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 01:58:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA05474; Tue, 27 May 1997 22:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705280028.RAA29407 popmail.UCSD.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Bart Simon" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:30:24 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Sociology of CF Reply-to: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3.0.32.19970527193030.006ab13c world.std.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Resent-Message-ID: <"1Uq0y2.0.aK1.ShxYp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexans, I'm wary of boosting the Sociology of CF thread on Vortex (especially now that Ragland's cell is getting some play), but I would like to make a quick reply to Mitchell's comments on my paper, and then maybe take it into the private e-sphere unless people are keen to have it otherwise. Mitchell writes: > On the scientific side, was disappointed. > You did not appear to have read or cite the literature > except for the "negative" books. You have also not > put in the actual scientific thread which really > explains why people continue in this field. I'll actually accept that criticism and am happy to be slammed, if only because the reviewers made me take out a bunch of the post-1990 "scientific stuff" out (the paucity occurs around pages 28-31) -- I hope to fix this somewhat in my next paper which focuses just on post-1990 developments (and tying these together has been difficult since there are so many folks doing so many different things). This said, the paper goes some way towards sketching out the ways in which CF research has developed since 1990 (again see pages 28-31ish) > This analysis demonstrates that real things about cold fusion > like loading, Dr. Miles' work, reproductions by > the US Navy, electrode conditions, power densities obtained, > correlations with autoradiography, etc. (were relatively ignored, > while Mr. Simon's apparent thesis that cold fusion is, or may be, > a "pathological science" appears to be butressed, reinforced > a priori. I'm not so sure I buy Mitchell's word count analysis and what it demonstrates - it all depends on what I was trying to argue. Its crucial to my argument that readers understand that I am REJECTING both pathological belief and pathological scepticism as plausible explanations for events in the CF case. The point is that CF research (contra Morrison, Huizenga, Close and Taubes) can not be pathological science as far as sociologists of science are concerned (the comments i'm getting from skeptics on my paper, btw, are much worse than yours). CF appears to be dead to sceptics (and most sociologists and lay-people, pending success with CETI and the like) but it is NOT dead for all the scientific-technical reasons that Mitchell mentions (plus the ones I mention about collective identity, resource mobilization etc...but I won't go into that). On the other hand, CF is not alive either - otherwise you would all be sipping gin and tonics in your new jacuzzi's by now. Undeath is my term for "describing" this strange zone that CF research occupies. I use the term to replace loaded terms like "marginal", "fringe", "wierd" etc... I liked the term too because - "ghostly" kind of describes the relations on Vortex-l -- virtual science and undead science have a lot in common I think. More importantly, my contribution to sociology is to try and convince my colleagues to include post-1990 CF research as a valid domain of study for the sociology of science (this is a good thing!) - a domain that can tell us something about how scientific practice works in general. Last comment: My mission (as I have conceived it) is not to prove or disprove CF - thats your mission. My mission is to try to account for the varying perceptions of what counts as proof - to describe how you all see what is going on and to provide some overview of the range of views and their relations. My main task in the paper you read was to make an argument for why CF was not dead in sociological terms that are independant of arguments for why CF is not dead in scientific terms - so stuff about the research milestones was not essential to the argument even if it is essential to the history (and again I accept that criticism). Even still, there is no reason why mine and Mitchell's arguments can not be compatible. We are both against the pathological science thesis we just disagree about how this should be argued. cheers, Bart ============================================ Bart Simon Dept. of Sociology/Science Studies-0533 University of California at San Diego (UCSD) 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA, 92093-0533 phone: 619-534-0491/fax: 619-534-3388 =========================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 04:04:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA11504; Wed, 28 May 1997 04:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 04:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970528065942.006f714c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:59:46 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Which paper to review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"1aMe33.0.gp2.441Zp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:09 AM 5/22/97 EDT, Jed wrote: >Barry, > >I think it is most natural -- and obvious -- that you should review the most >authoritative, impressive, detailed and complete papers in the literature. I >cannot understand why you would begin with Lonchampt when you have >Fleischmann, Miles and McKubre. Anyone can tell at a glance that they explain >the calorimetry in far greater detail than Lonchampt, and they used better >instruments. I think you have deliberately picked the weakest paper in the lot >because you know that you could not possibly find an error in the others. You >are hoping to find some minor weakness in Lonchampt that you can blow up out >of proportion, to give the impression the other papers are questionable. Jed, You are being too severe. Why is it the weakest? What difference in a journey where Barry begins? >Your methods are now clear. You began by picking marginal papers far from >the mainstream that describe unique and still-unreplicated work, like Miley >and E-Quest. You are trying to create the impression that cold fusion >experiments are done once, by isolated groups, with no follow-up and no >independent replication. Now, you have selected the weakest of the several >papers I sent you, and you pretend you "don't have time" for the others. This >reminds me of Hoffman, who spent two years and more than $100,000 writing a >book about cold fusion, yet somehow he never found time to discuss or include >in the bibliography a single paper about excess heat! You may not be >consciously setting out to write a bigoted hatchet job, but by every >indication that is what you will accomplish. IMHO Barry has done a good job in a difficult field. >You ask for suggestions. Are you serious? I suggest you stop screwing around >and get to the heart of the matter. The principal signature of the reaction is >heat. The proof of cold fusion is in calorimetry: static, flow, and >thermoelectric. No. the proof of anomalous heat may be calorimetry. Evidence of fusion requires a nuclear signature, and another condition. >Static calorimetry was perfected by J. P. Joule in the 1840s; >the other two methods were perfected by 1910 and 1950 respectively. You can >get detailed textbooks on these subjects. If you are going to find an error, >you must show that Pons and Fleischmann, Miles, McKubre, Oriani, Bockris and >the other leading electrochemists are doing the calorimetry wrong. Actually there are a few errors, Jed. Much current calorimetry is not wrong but is an approximation, a la Newton, and will be replaced with improved methods. The flow calorimetry is worse, but both are improveable and when done correctly yield noise levels, and the means to eliminate pseudo-"excess heat", from those actual excess heats in fully loaded active samples. This does not mean indicated excess heat in some expt is not wrong either, but methinks you might check out my forthcoming paper on 'Noise in cold fusion (and other over-unity) systems'. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 05:06:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA16902; Wed, 28 May 1997 05:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970528080112.006fd790 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:01:15 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"oDkIn2.0._74.lz1Zp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:56 AM 5/28/97 -0400, Kurt wrote of Mills' lower-energy-states-for-hydrogen theory: >Note that it seems to me that Mills' explanation is attractive because >it seems to provide a means to answer the great variability of results >reported for CF experiments: Kurt, much of what you say is true, but this is not. Much "variability" results because not each experimenter looked for neutrons and excess heat and xrays and ..... (also the reactions are not easy to achieve, and some of the products -e.g. neutrons- are very difficult to measure and have low capture efficiency at the detector) IMHO, this is NOT variation in the reported output, but is a parallax view effect with respect to each experimenter and each expt. That one group looked for 4He and another looked for 4He AND 3He does NOT necessarily mean that one report invalidates the other merely because the second looks for something the first group did not. Do you agree? ============================================================= > 1. CF is typically explained as a fusion process, but although there > are often fusion products in CF experiments, the measured amounts > of fusion products are as a rule not commensurate to the excess > heat produced by the experiment. This may have been true. The gap is decreasing and am told it is close. With '90-93 measurements it was at about a third. ============================================================= > On the other hand, if one allows > Mills' explanation, then the fusion products can be seen as > secondary reaction products produced by the UV energy released by > the Mills' process -- and in this case the measured amounts of > fusion products would tend to be substantially less than the amount > that would be commensurate to the excess heat, and this is what the > CF experiments actually show. And this also explains why such a > wide variety of different fusion products seem to be produced: the > fusion products are opportunistic and depend on the material in the > cell at the points where the Mills' UV energy is being produced. > This hypothesis may have a role although both Randall's spherical shells, and Hal's circles, ignore that the low mass electron probably follows the BornOppenheimer principle on orbiting the heavier nucleus(nuclei). Thus, methinks that in fact the electron probably does have a volumetric characteristic similar to that which QM describes. On the gripping hand, however, there is no doubt that a few microliters of hydrino would go far to change many peoples' minds very quickly about the existence of the putative state. A page with a few characteristic signatures of that sample show a series of distinctive IR, visible, UV, signatures would help. It might be there, is it? ============================================================= > 2. Aside from the relatively low levels of fusion products, other > reaction products, aside from the excess heat, are as a rule absent > or almost completely absent from CF experiments: x-rays, neutrons, > etc. This is not true. When LOOKED FOR: there is He4, very low level non-penetrating xrays (~10-20 keV), neutronpenic levels of neutrons, and there may be other characteristic signatures. I just xeroxed a 20 pound box of positive papers in this field for a very close friend which demonstrates this. And that doesnt include five (5) years of the COLD FUSION TIMES which further indicates that WHEN LOOKED FOR, these materials are nuclear, and give off safe heat beyond the limits of conventional chemistry. The field is very interesting, but neither trivial nor easy. ============================================================= > If fusion were the original source of the excess heat in CF, > then many physicists have argued over the years that these other > energetic reaction products should be seen, but as a rule they are > not seen, or they are seen at levels far below the levels that are > commensurate to the excess heat for the experiment. See above. Also, the results are consistent with normal QM as described in several papers including "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids", M. Swartz, Fusion Technology, 31, 228-236 (March 1997). Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 05:38:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA11080; Wed, 28 May 1997 05:36:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:36:59 -0700 Message-ID: <338C1BA3.55A9 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:18:51 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 2 ramp SMOT works...webpage References: <19970528050603235.AAA323 jumanji> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Or0Op1.0.-i2.gR2Zp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ben Tammetta wrote: > > Greg what's next? > Can I make a curved one now :) > > Ben Hi Ben, Great work. I have downloaded all your images. I would suggest you link 2 more ramps. The middle two then have to work with mag fields on each end. When you get 4 linked, try the party trick and see how many ball you can get in transit at one time. I could get 8 to 10 balls going at once. It really looks great. Then try lifting each succeding ramp by a few mm until you can get the final lift twice the first lift. When you get there, I will show you how to get a roll away! Best Regards and congrats on the results, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 05:39:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA10085; Wed, 28 May 1997 05:28:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:28:30 -0700 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:28:24 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: My SMOT works too. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"P9LOg2.0.VT2.jJ2Zp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HI Everyone, just to left you know that my phase 1 SMOT basically works. I can get a ball up about 11 mm. Here's what I used. The Ceramic magnets from Jaycar recommended by Greg. They're cheap and plentiful. I only bought one pak of 100 for the phase 1 attempt. I'll buy another 4 packets to go all the way to a working device. I used the 104*10*3mm soft steel backing to mount the magnets. I attached the magnets with sticky tape. I don't recommend this because the bumps and ripples on the tape make adjusting the magnets quite tricky. The thing was mounted on the balse base and I used straight pins to position the magnet. I used Aluminium "U" tube 10 mm wide and 12 mm high. It was the closest we had just lying around our workshop. I tried 3 balls. Just plain ball bearings we had in our workshop. 0.5 inch, 7/16 inch and 3/8 inch. The 7/16 inch is almost exactly 12 mm. After a quite long search I found a solution that worked. I found this much harder than I supposed from the web directions. Here's what I had to do. Firstly the 6 mm between the inside of the rail and start of the magnet was much too close. The magnets would not let the ball drop off the end of the rail at this seperation. I found that the end gap had to be widened to about 10 mm from inside rail to the start of the magnet. I think that this should be the first thing others should do. Make sure your ball CAN fall off the end, then search for a solution by moving the back pins and moving the magnets forward and back. Very interesting only the 0.5 inch ball worked. Both 7/16 and 3/8 inch balls did not reach the end of the rails. I think this is because of increased rolling resistance. I didn't work very hard to polish the rails or to provide lubrication. At this stage the device makes a fun little toy (my 3 year old daughter loves it!) but does not exhibit any unusual behaviour. The exit stage is clearly at a much lower magnetic potential than the entrence. The ball will not roll away from the exit but is held to the end quite tightly. I can't imagine where the magic that turns this device into a PM is at this point. There are lots of obvious improvements I can make to improve performance. The most notable is to polish and lubricate the rails. Take this as yet another successful replication of the phase I SMOT. Martin Sevior PS. I saw a beautiful example of conservation of momentum by putting the different size balls on the ramp at once. They each repel one another and move around bouncing off each other without touching. When a big hits a small ball it goes flying off, but the small hitting the big one only gives a bit of movement. All great stuff. I'll try to make a movie of it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 05:42:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA19603; Wed, 28 May 1997 05:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338C1EAD.4878 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:31:49 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: There are NO stupid questions (?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"97wo51.0.2o4.3S2Zp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steve Ekwall wrote: > > On Tue, 27 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > > > > And for the BUILD phase... > > > I have earlyer already 2 models made, one with round alnico-5 magnets > > > and one with 50x19x5 magnets (Both a succes for a SINGLE model). > > > The problem is that I really need the 13x10x5 magnets and I can't find > > > them anywhere yet. > > > Here comes my problem: In ALL the models I have made and seen, the > > > exit point is just before the start of the last magnet. > Hopefully there are no stupid questions, but even my wife is excited about > building one of these smot1 'toys' QUESTION: are these "bar magnets" like > a tootsie roll shape OR Flat and Stacked "Disk (ceramic style)" stack.. > Question arises as I SEE "BarS" stack nsnsnsn but NO "North/ South" as in > jnaudin pics. My wife says you mean "Flat Round" coin shaped magnets. > Of course she's a Chemist(!) so what does she know. Oddly we can both > make your mm x mm x mm demensions fit our agrument! :) > Thanks ( one of us will take the other out to dinner :) we both win! > se > > ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ > -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 Hi Steve, The magnets are rectangular blocks. Mine are 4x10x13mm, magnetised through the 4mm thickness. One array has the N pole facing into the ramp and the other array has the S pole facing into the ramp. Hope this helps, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 05:47:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA19623; Wed, 28 May 1997 05:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338C2153.2155 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:43:07 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 3 or 4 ramps head to tail? References: <970527201835_72240.1256_EHB53-2 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OlhW81.0.Xo4.9S2Zp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > To: Vortex > > John Logajan, who has taken to signing his messages twice -- John Logajan, who > has taken to signing his messages twice, says: > > And speaking of ramps in a series -- again there is the potential for > illusion, since the ramps are all adjusted by "feel", one might > unintentionally get the ball to move through all four ramps by making > each ramp magnetic field stronger than the previous one. Once adjusted for linked operation, the individual ramps can be swapped around. The field at the top of the last ramp is the same as that at the top of the first. There is no creeping field increase here. > Good point! > > Greg: > > Is there any reason why four ramps cannot be arranged head to tail, in a loop? > Does the ball object to turning 90 degrees after it falls? Would it jump out > of the second ramp, and if so, couldn't you prevent this with some kind of cup > to catch it? The ball must stay on the "Neutral line" between the magnet arrays. Some slight angular linking is possible, but I have found that the best I could get is around 7-8 deg. > For that matter, you might arrange three ramps in a triangle, instead of four > in a square. Wish it were that easy. > If you, or anyone else trying this experiment, can close the loop with three > or four ramps please do so as soon as possible. This is the acid test. The loop will close. > If the ball does not want to take a sharp turn between ramps, I suppose you > will need five or six to make a circle. Still much too sharp. > I do not think that we can be so sure > about Logajan's earlier statement that a "J" shaped return could make the ball > go back to the beginning with only one ramp. It seems to me the magnets above > might prevent it from rolling back. A series of ramps seems like a fairer > test. > > The descriptions, schematics, photographs and parts lists have been most > helpful. This already takes the prize for the most open, understated, and > apparently sane o-u magnetic motor project in history. It is also one of the > best cooperative efforts I have seen, reminiscent of the early days in > microcomputers. It is a shame CF is so hard to do. However, speaking of > history, I believe I have seen schematics for similar magnet-ramp-and-hole > gadgets in articles about perpetual motion machines. I recall one in the > Scientific American. In other words, people have tried similar approaches many > times, with no success. But you never know. Perhaps they never tried this > particular design. A slight change can make a world of difference in > technology. 99.999% of the time a slight change has a deleterious effect. > Years ago this was demonstrated at Intel when the workers ran frozen pizzas > through the chip fabrication ovens during slack hours. No kidding! Their > clean-room standards were tightened up since then, but several orders of > magnitude, I bet. As far as I know, my SMOT ramp design and linking system is unique. The design looks simple, but its not. There has been much work done on controlling the mag field under the ramp and the exit characteristics. Very small changes will stop the devices operation. But once adjusted, the operation is very soild! > - Jed Hi Jed, Hang in there. Four Linked ramps with 8-10 balls rolling up and down is really an eye opener. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 07:56:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA07919; Wed, 28 May 1997 07:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 07:52:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970528105102_-296598434 emout14.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re Bart Simon's Paper Resent-Message-ID: <"RQpl02.0.ex1.eQ4Zp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bart Simon has written a good paper. Anyone interested in the field known as cold fusion can learn from reading it. Let's hope for its early publication. Bart, four small points: Please remember that people outside your field are reading your paper and will read it in the future. Would you let us know what an abbreviation like SSK stands for? Does it stand for Studies of Scientific Knowledge? You referred to the most prominent forum for cold fusion research as the Journal of Fusion Technology. The title of the journal is just plain Fusion Technology. In your conclusion, you said that "cold fusion experiments have recently become eligible for DOE funding again." I wasn't aware of that. When did that happen? (Your note 74 didn't give a source or any further details.) A typo: in note 29, you referred to C. A. Tayler. Shouldn't that be Taylor? Good luck with the completion of your Ph.D. thesis. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 08:35:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA13379; Wed, 28 May 1997 08:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:18:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705281518.KAA06216 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: EarthTech's Ragland cell Resent-Message-ID: <"KjXbq.0.xG3.up4Zp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The first run of our new triode cell (see photos and desc. on our web page) is now in its 5th day of operation, 3rd day at the current densities that are expected to stimulate the excess heat effect (~600 mA/cm^2). As of about 0900 this AM, the total electrical input energy was reading 2.06 Mj (megajoules) and the total heat output energy was reading 2.04 Mj...i.e. an Eout/Ein ratio of 0.99. Our control program also provides the instantaneous Pout/Pin ratio and that is also running around 0.99 now (i.e. it hasn't recently begun to produce excess heat). Our total input power is now about 6.8 watts. BTW, our cell is sealed and the recombiner is apparently working perfectly. We have a pressure relief hose leading out of the calorimeter which is closed with an ordinary toy balloon. The balloon inflated partially when we first applied the electrolysis current but now it is limp. We, too, may have the wrong LiOH concentration. Yes, it's LiOH added to pure D2O. Storms would certainly say the H was detrimental...but it's what Ragland used. Anyway, our LiOH solution is 0.38 molar. It's about twice the concentration that Ragland suggests. Chris, what are you using? Our anodes seem reasonably well balanced. Anode 1 needs 7.3 volts to carry 600 mA (our Pd cathode has 1 cm^2 surface area) and anode 2 requires 7.0 volts at the same current. We are sampling every 4 seconds and switching the power supplies every 16 seconds. We now have one anode at 600 mA and the other anode at 450 mA per Ragland's recommendations. Ragland says it could take up to 8 days for the excess heat effect to appear. Stay tuned for further updates. Scott P.S. We didn't get blown away last night and, thankfully (for our experiments), the power didn't fail at the lab. We were damned lucky. Folks were dying as little as 20 miles away from here as a tornado that rivaled the big one in "Twister" tore through Central Texas! A number of houses were swept away leaving the slab as clean as the day it was poured! Unbelievable. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 09:09:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA25577; Wed, 28 May 1997 08:53:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:53:18 -0700 Date: 28 May 97 11:52:00 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Subject: ??? Meyer Message-ID: <970528155200_100060.173_JHB53-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"hSCz-3.0.ZF6.jJ5Zp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vorts, There is a rumour going the rounds here in London that Stan Meyer has put his foot in it again with the law. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 09:15:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA28682; Wed, 28 May 1997 09:10:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:10:49 -0700 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705281610.JAA01538 norway.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: SMOT QField Sims Resent-Message-ID: <"I_bEB.0.-_6.8a5Zp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Greg, Yes I agree that you spent a LOT of time and energy on the SMOT design to make it work and then to make it easy for duplication by others. We all thank you for sharing this information. As people successfully duplicate the closing the loop SMOT, maybe then we figure out how to power homes with this technology. The Qfield simms are a great way to explain what is happening and maybe even answer where the energy is coming from. Any info on the return fields and why they flow in the opposite direction? Did you ever do a sim with the ball hitting the null field at the start and end of the ramp? I would be interested in seeing them. Thanks again, Michael At 01:51 AM 5/28/97 +0930, you wrote: > >Hi Michael, > >I have confirmed that the Qfield sims are correct. > >The "Hole" is caused by the return fields of the side magnets (they >"Flow" in opposite directions). The "Hole" size and mag field contours >are related to magnet geometry and spacing. The SMOT design looks >simple, but as time goes on, we will see that a LOT of time and energy >has gone into the design. > >Remember than null fields are an easy exit enemy as the quick mag field >contour drop off is like hitting a brick wall to the ball. The linked >field xy plot shows the linked case will result in a easier exit than if >the linked ramp was not present, but the up the ramp performance will >suffer and the magnet spacing (top and bottom) will have to be closed up >to compensate for the effect of the linked ramp. > >Soon, you will understand why I used balsa and straight pins to build my >mag array supports and adjustment system from. > >Been there, done that. > > >Best regards, > Greg > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 10:04:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA06065; Wed, 28 May 1997 10:01:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:01:09 -0700 Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: EarthTech's Ragland cell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:01:03 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199705281518.KAA06216 natasha.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at May 28, 97 10:18:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pNk0W.0.gU1.JJ6Zp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > BTW, our cell is sealed and the recombiner is > apparently working perfectly. We have a pressure relief hose leading out of > the calorimeter which is closed with an ordinary toy balloon. The balloon > inflated partially when we first applied the electrolysis current but now it > is limp. Not that this is relevent to your system, but I've found that toy balloons are incredibly pervious to water vapor. A small quantity of water in a balloon evaporates and escapes the balloon nearly as fast as the same quantity of water in a dish outside the balloon. > Folks were dying as little as 20 miles away from here as a tornado that > rivaled the big one in "Twister" tore through Central Texas! Amazing and deadly. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 10:15:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA02287; Wed, 28 May 1997 10:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: 28 May 97 13:03:48 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: EarthTech's Ragland cell Message-ID: <970528170347_100433.1541_BHG58-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"IyHa-3.0.aZ.jN6Zp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, Well, this looks like a case of the blind (me) leading the partially sighted (Scott). > Anyway, our LiOH solution is 0.38 molar. It's about twice the > concentration that Ragland suggests. Chris, what are you using? The otherwise very fussy Ragland is casual in the extreme about his solute concentration. I wish now that I had tested the molarity of molarity of my own solution - I suppose I still could. The fact is (embarrassingly for someone who is much more chemist than physicist) that I have no idea what LiOH strength I'm using! What I do know is that it was stronger than it should have been, because the voltages required were about 65% of those which Ragland uses. By the way, I've not studied Scott's website. That's because I was getting a funny connection last night with lots of corruptions. Some sites are OK from the UK in the evenings (Jean-Louis', for example) but most US sites are better checked before America wakes up in the morning. > Our anodes seem reasonably well balanced. Anode 1 needs 7.3 volts > to carry 600 mA (our Pd cathode has 1 cm^2 surface area) and anode > 2 requires 7.0 volts at the same current. A markedly better balance than mine have. > We are sampling every 4 seconds and switching the power supplies > every 16 seconds. Evan says that 16S is at the high end of the range - not that I'm suggesting you change it. > We now have one anode at 600 mA and the other anode at 450 mA per > Ragland's recommendations. Are you sure? He usually recommends a 3:2 ratio. > Ragland says it could take up to 8 days for the excess heat effect > to appear. Hmmm. Well, we may move to the other cell in a day or two. Meanwhile, I think I really *will* play with Watson ramps. CF is as much fun as watching a plank warp. How are you measuring flow rate? My meter has died completely, I think. It was never much use. That's terrible about the weather problems. It reminds me of a comment by my mother-in-law (a convinced southerner), speaking of parts of the UK 100 miles north of London, that "how can anyone possibly live in such a place?" And when she visited Nottingham (125 mile N of London), she professed amazement that we had so many trees - somehow she imagined we were beyond the tree line. Are those people still advertising that they'll remove hail-dints from your car? What about from your *head*? Seriously, though, it is a terrible tragedy - so many dead, and communities destroyed. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 10:28:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA04822; Wed, 28 May 1997 10:24:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:24:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:22:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705281722.MAA19955 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: EarthTech's Ragland cell Resent-Message-ID: <"-Fz-b2.0.BB1.fe6Zp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:01 5/28/97 -0500, John Logajan wrote: >Not that this is relevent to your system, but I've found that toy balloons >are incredibly pervious to water vapor. A small quantity of water in >a balloon evaporates and escapes the balloon nearly as fast as the >same quantity of water in a dish outside the balloon. Wow. That could be bad for this experiment since D2O is hygroscopic. Thanks. What I'd really like to have is some kind of relief system that would accurately record the amount of gas that escapes in the event that the recombiner fails. That way I could still calculate an overall energy balance for the run. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 10:28:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA04744; Wed, 28 May 1997 10:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:23:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970528132211_-1999881547 emout16.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion Resent-Message-ID: <"dqH3l2.0.1A1.Me6Zp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 5/23/97 9:16:05 AM, Greg Watson asked for clarification of what I wrote: Hal: << Magnetic field energy is decreased as object moves into and quenches part of the field distribution; >> Greg: <> Actually, it is the opposite. When the domains align, the little, say, south poles are attracted to the external applied, say, north pole, and the little north poles are repelled. Therefore, the alignment of domains within the material serve to cancel out (weaken) locally the magnetic field that would have otherwise been there. The overall result is that the field energy has been reduced, this energy now going into moving the ball; i.e., field energy is transformed into kinetic energy. Hal From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 10:35:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA12031; Wed, 28 May 1997 10:33:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:33:12 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970527211309_100433.1541_BHG49-1 CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:53:34 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: 3 or 4 ramps head to tail? Resent-Message-ID: <"wuu9f2.0.sx2.Nn6Zp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris - > The fact that Rick Monteverde seems to be > seeing something interests me a lot. Glad to have you playing along too, Chris. I'm sure I'm not seeing anything weird yet since there's no rollout. The ball is clearly stuck back against the near-vertical rail. Cute, but no cigarillo - yet. I had some luck getting the ball to move further away on exit by using a little wedge at the lower end of the near-vertical part, as it was obvious that energy was being wasted by the dead impact when the ball hit the lower rail. It wasn't a very clean wedge-ramp though, so I don't know if there is enough energy there to recover for a real rolloff. I would think that the linked ramps in any configuration would benefit from such a small wedge if properly constructed. I don't have the right magnets yet (too tall for the ball and ramp), so my single ramp is unlinkabe even though the ball plops out the exit. I have ordered the correct magnets, and intend to play along here too as per Greg's recipe. But I'm interested in that j-ramp exit idea. It does seem that it would 'prove' anomalous behavior if not OU with a single ramp if you could get the ball to roll away at the same level, and certainly so if you could loop it back to the start and again for continuous cycling. I guess you'd have to drop it perfectly straight down that blue hole as seen in the QuickField sims. Overall, I remain a skeptic until I see the loop close. And if a majority here does manage to get their SMOT loops closed, I bet there will be a mad dash to convert the principle to rotary designs (I hear some muffled dashing sounds in the background already). In that case, I hope Greg wins the world. I'll be working on the t-shirt. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 10:47:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA07324; Wed, 28 May 1997 10:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: EarthTech's Ragland cell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:36:38 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199705281722.MAA19955 natasha.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at May 28, 97 12:22:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wIYtJ1.0.Jo1.Pr6Zp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 12:01 5/28/97 -0500, John Logajan wrote: > >Not that this is relevent to your system, but I've found that toy balloons > >are incredibly pervious to water vapor. A small quantity of water in > >a balloon evaporates and escapes the balloon nearly as fast as the > >same quantity of water in a dish outside the balloon. > > Wow. That could be bad for this experiment since D2O is hygroscopic. > Thanks. What I'd really like to have is some kind of relief system that > would accurately record the amount of gas that escapes in the event that the > recombiner fails. That way I could still calculate an overall energy > balance for the run. Thicker rubber might work. I know that "Saran Wrap" is a much better vapor barrier. It's just that *inflated* balloons, in which the rubber is stretched to near transparency, seem to be surprisingly pervious to water vapor. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 11:01:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA10266; Wed, 28 May 1997 10:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:47:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705281747.MAA22517 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: EarthTech's Ragland cell Resent-Message-ID: <"VuS2d2.0.HW2.C47Zp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 13:03 5/28/97 EDT, Chris Tinsley wrote: >I wish now that I had tested the molarity of >molarity of my own solution - I suppose I still could. please do, if it's not too much trouble. I'd like to know. >Evan says that 16S is at the high end of the range - not that I'm >suggesting you change it. I'm afraid I'm guilty of nudging this parameter in the direction I think it should go in. Even 16s seems ridiculously short to me on the time scale usually used in CF experiments. I'll definitely be exploring shorter times soon. That is a parameter we can change on the fly...perhaps in a couple of days. > > We now have one anode at 600 mA and the other anode at 450 mA per > > Ragland's recommendations. > >Are you sure? He usually recommends a 3:2 ratio. Oops. my clerical mistake. We ARE running at 600:400...not 600:450. While we're on this, I am tempted to try even greater ratios if nothing happens at this ratio. >CF is as much fun as watching a plank warp. Right, and in my case, the plank makes an annoying noise. I used one of Cole-Parmer's "economy" drives for the peristaltic pump...it's gearmotor is rather noisy...and the thing in all set up right in my office! >How are you measuring flow rate? Stop watch, plastic cup, and 0.01g digital balance ($300 Ohaus "Scout" from Cole-Parmer). Periodically, we measure it by collecting about 40 grams of water in the cup. Here are our observations: 21MAY97 .848 .849 22MAY97 .851 .849 .842 28MAY97 .847 .852 .849 The mean flow rate is 0.848 ml/sec with an observed sigma of +/- 0.003...or about 0.4% relative. Pretty good for squeezed rubber, huh? We are using the fabled Norprene tubing which has a rated life of 5000 hours at this rpm (60). Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 11:17:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA10750; Wed, 28 May 1997 10:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338C713B.68D4 worldonline.nl> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:54:03 +0200 From: Ronald de Mol Organization: World Online X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ben clubelite.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: 2 ramp SMOT works...webpage References: <19970528050603235.AAA323 jumanji> <338C685C.2741@worldonline.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"u6wA_.0.ud2.Y77Zp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ben Tammetta wrote: > > Ben's SMOT Page > Simple Magnetic Overunity Toy > > I'll put more details here soon, but, I thought many of you would > like for me to quickly make some pictures and AVI's available to > you. They are not the best quality and black and white, but it's > something. > > The images and AVI's are here so you can see how big they are. > > http://oscar.clubelite.com:8888/smot > if that doesn't work > http://205.152.8.132:8888/smot > http:/205.152.8.132:8888/smot/images > > > Ben > ben clubelite.com > > ###################### > # Ben Tammetta # > # ben clubelite.com # > ###################### Hi Ben, Great, Great, Great work !!! I have made a 'Link-to' page on my homepage where all the 'SMOT' type hompages are. ( i hope there are soon comming more. ) Can you immagine that i'm desperate waiting for my magnets... :-( P.S.: Why are youre AVI's in Hi quality and your photo's not so ? (Could you not 'photo video' the shots, and save them as stills ? ) -- Anyway Great ! Ronald. Homepage HTTP://www.worldonline.nl/~catware From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 11:18:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA17146; Wed, 28 May 1997 11:00:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:00:19 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC6B56.513B46D0 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: FW: EarthTech's Ragland cell Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:00:12 -0700 Encoding: 19 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"4AqsO3.0.qB4.oA7Zp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > Wow. That could be bad for this experiment since D2O is hygroscopic. > Thanks. What I'd really like to have is some kind of relief system that > would accurately record the amount of gas that escapes in the event that the > recombiner fails. That way I could still calculate an overall energy > balance for the run. How much gas do you expect to have to capture? Mylar balloons might contain the vapor better. Surplus weather balloons? Also, I believe some heat-seal plastic bagging setups use a continuous roll of plastic 'tubing' of various diameters. You could fit a roll of that to your vent, and it would unroll as it filled; easy to measure volume. It would need a lot of linear room for it to expand, though. Dan Quickert dequickert ucdavis.edu 916-756-0575 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 12:16:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA21264; Wed, 28 May 1997 11:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:59:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:54:06 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: straight SMOT ramps OU? Resent-Message-ID: <"qdyXw.0.6C5.H28Zp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts - Wow man, like, I just had a *heavy* SMOT flash... You have one straight ramp. Ball drops out to the starting level, but sticks back against the drop rail with a certain amount of force at an obviously lower magnetic potential than at the start. We are not very impressed. You link two ramps. Ball ends up stuck at the end with the same amount of force. Link three, then four ramps. Ball ends up stuck at the end with the same amount of force. Oh! I see now - you could just keep on linking and linking, and the ball sticks back with the *same* amount of force at the final ramp - no matter how many ramps there are! Oh, I'm sure there's a tiny cumulative effect for a force increase from more ramps behind it, but... If it were a no-win game, you'd have 4 times the force after 4 ramps. But no matter how much friction and eddy currents and air resistance is met, clackity clack, ramp after ramp, many feet away, you end up with essentially the same back force. At some point, that back force obviously isn't enough to account for all the energy spent getting the ball to that point through all the ramps and losses. One ramp, maybe not. But several... If you can link ramps (I saw Ben Tammetta's AVI - nice job, Ben), and the back force at the end doesn't grow substantially with each ramp, (and the magnets don't die), then Greg's gizmo *has* to be OU! Everybody knew this already, right? - 99th Monkey, Honolulu HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 13:26:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA10484; Wed, 28 May 1997 13:11:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:11:36 -0700 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:10:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199705282010.QAA20589 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <199705281722.MAA19955 natasha.eden.com> (message from Scott Little on Wed, 28 May 1997 12:22:56 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: EarthTech's Ragland cell Resent-Message-ID: <"7DPwh3.0.jZ2.t59Zp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little said: > Wow. That could be bad for this experiment since D2O is > hygroscopic. Thanks. What I'd really like to have is some kind > of relief system that would accurately record the amount of gas > that escapes in the event that the recombiner fails. That way I > could still calculate an overall energy balance for the run. Tom Droghe used a syringe. It let him track outgassing events nicely and still keep the system closed. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 13:35:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA12161; Wed, 28 May 1997 13:19:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:19:10 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Scudder,Henry J" To: Vortex-L Subject: Spelling Checkers Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:16:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Xv3Si2.0.xz2.zC9Zp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eye stold dis frum anodder net. Owed to the Spell Checker I have a spelling checker - It came with my PC. It plane lee marks four my revue Miss steaks aye can knot sea. Eye ran this poem threw it, Your sure reel glad two no. Its vary polished in it's weigh, My checker tolled me sew. A checker is a bless sing, It freeze yew lodes of thyme. It helps me right awl stiles two reed, And aides me when aye rime. To rite with care is quite a feet Of witch won should be proud. And wee mussed dew the best wee can, Sew flaws are knot aloud. And now bee cause my spelling Is checked with such grate flare, Their are know faults with in my cite, Of nun eye am a wear. Each frays come posed up on my screen Eye trussed to bee a joule The checker poured o'er every word To cheque sum spelling rule. That's why aye brake in two averse By righting wants too pleas. Sow now ewe sea why aye dew prays Such soft wear for pea seas! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 14:01:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA07579; Wed, 28 May 1997 13:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970528133508.00ad2a1c mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:35:16 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: 2 ramp SMOT + wedge Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"J03v_2.0.Ls1.QS9Zp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ben, I have seen you video and noticed that you do not use a wedge between the 1st and 2nd ramp. I use a small wedge to transform the vertical fall from the 1st ramp to a horizontal movement in the 2nd ramp. Without the wedge quite a lot of energy is wasted when the ball hits the U channel of the 2nd ramp after it exits and falls from the 1st ramp. I am using thick glass for the wedge since it is nonferromagnetic, hard and doesn't dampen the fall like a soft aluminum does. At 12:55 PM 5/28/97 +0000, you wrote: >From my webpage... > >Ben's SMOT Page >Simple Magnetic Overunity Toy > > I'll put more details here soon, but, I thought many of you would > like for me to quickly make some pictures and AVI's available to > you. They are not the best quality and black and white, but it's > something. > > Bottom Line: > Two level SMOT ramps are linked together and working. > > The steel ball starts at the bottom of ramp 1 and continues past > the end of ramp 2. The Steel ball starts by rolling up a ramp and > end up 25mm higher, drops 25mm and does it again. (With nothing > but Permanet magnets to move it.) > > KEY POINTS: > > The ramps are on a faily level surface (my desk) > both ramp entrance channels bottoms are flush against the > desk Both ramp exit channel bottoms are 25mm above the > surface of the desk > > PARTS: > > 19mm ball from a PC Mouse, 12mm aluminum channel > magnets: ~4x19x25mm ( Radio Shack) > arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1" > (almost 4x24x235mm) wide steel backing. And thin plywood and > cardboard for the base. > > The images and AVI's are here so you can see how big they are. > >http:/oscar.clubelite.com:8888/smot >if that doesn't work >http://205.152.8.132:8888/smot >http:/205.152.8.132:8888/smot/images > >Greg what's next? >Can I make a curved one now :) > >Ben >ben clubelite.com > > > > >###################### ># Ben Tammetta # ># ben clubelite.com # >###################### > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 14:12:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA10308; Wed, 28 May 1997 13:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <338C8FCD.D2528097 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:04:29 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: I did something with one ramp X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lxzqq1.0.-W2.Ik9Zp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I succeed the exit run away with one ramp combined with a an other rail on exit. I could not measured the level differences between the start and the end but it seem there is no penalty more than 1 mm. Ramp rise is only half centimeter. My materials are flexible magnets, a 1 cm diameter bearing ball at very bad condition and plastic rails. Tomorrow I am expecting better materials. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 14:52:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA20534; Wed, 28 May 1997 14:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <338CA941.91B48D28 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:53:05 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Ball suffering of magnetism! X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MKADy1.0.h05.oVAZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: When my (bearing) ball getting contact with an loudspeaker magnet armature and did not climb the ramp after. It must be demagnetized or homogenized to restore it climbing ability otherwise it stuck in the near end the ramp. May be it be useful to make an test ramp for measuring the performance of the ball between experiments. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 14:58:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA20192; Wed, 28 May 1997 14:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:46:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:48:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion Resent-Message-ID: <"lqeN33.0.Px4.bUAZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >In a message dated 5/23/97 9:16:05 AM, Greg Watson asked for clarification of >what I wrote: > >Hal: << Magnetic field energy is decreased as object moves into and quenches >part of the field distribution; >> > >Greg: < >If the object is a soft ferromagnetic material, the field energy >increases due to the additive action of the soft aligning domains in the >ferrite.>> > >Actually, it is the opposite. When the domains align, the little, say, south >poles are attracted to the external applied, say, north pole, and the little >north poles are repelled. Therefore, the alignment of domains within the >material serve to cancel out (weaken) locally the magnetic field that would >have otherwise been there. The overall result is that the field energy has >been reduced, this energy now going into moving the ball; i.e., field energy >is transformed into kinetic energy. > >Hal Query to Hal: Would you classify the "field energy" itself as "potential," "kinetic," or something else? Evan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 15:07:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA22305; Wed, 28 May 1997 14:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:59:35 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970528175632_-730957027 emout20.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: gwatson microtronics.com.au, harti@bbtt.de Subject: LINKED SMOTs : TEST PASSED Resent-Message-ID: <"lV0EZ1.0.HS5.1hAZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I have tested SUCCESSFULLY two linked SMOTs, its work very well but the adjustement must be very accurate. The disruption gap between the magnetic potential ( in the null zone ) and the potential energy of gravity for regauging the system ( T.Bearden theory) must be adjusted precisely. ( look at my picture ) As said Grag Watson : " The height of the magnets MUST be less than the lift otherwise you will not be able to get the ramps to link. " I have linked two SMOTs ( V 1.02 ) devices, each SMOT is composed of : - 2 Magnetic RAMPS : Each ramp : 15 magnets in 3 layers of 5 magnets, Ceramic Magnets( ferrite ) : 25 x 40 x 10 mm A wide steel backing : 25 x 200 x 4 mm 25 mm steel ball 20 x 20 mm aluminum U channel Plywood and cardboard for the base Magnetic ramps spec : Input gauge : 70 mm Output gauge : 58 mm Height of slope : 25 mm Length : 90 mm (slope) + 20 mm ( entrance ) You will find all pictures and videos in my web site at : http://members.aol.com/overunity3/html/s102jln.htm We are on the way of Overunity..... SMOTy yours, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 15:25:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA03698; Wed, 28 May 1997 15:17:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:17:46 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:16:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970528181526_779450678 emout04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: AntiG Correlation (Re: SMOT or RMOT) Resent-Message-ID: <"9Fd7O.0.iv.9yAZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 5/25/97 10:27:34 PM, you wrote: << The experiment (described on Vortex) where a thin vertical sheet of bismuth between two magnets looses weight when it is on the neutral line between two magnets.>> I missed this. Can you fwd a copy? Thanks. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 15:25:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA03745; Wed, 28 May 1997 15:17:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:17:58 -0700 Date: 28 May 97 18:15:44 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: straight SMOT ramps OU? Message-ID: <970528221544_100433.1541_BHG84-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Ot4012.0.Rw.LyAZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick, > If you can link ramps (I saw Ben Tammetta's AVI - nice job, Ben), > and the back force at the end doesn't grow substantially with each > ramp, (and the magnets don't die), then Greg's gizmo *has* to be > OU! > > Everybody knew this already, right? Well, I don't know if they did - I see the argument, and I certainly can see no way of arguing with it. I'm waiting with fascinated interest for *any* secure explanation for the multiple-ramp SMOT. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 15:51:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA29089; Wed, 28 May 1997 15:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338CB2F4.3022 worldonline.nl> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:34:28 +0200 From: Ronald de Mol Organization: World Online X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: catware worldonline.nl CC: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion References: <970528132211_-1999881547 emout16.mail.aol.com> <338C8A42.2331@worldonline.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wzl5t2.0.K67.VEBZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Puthoff aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/23/97 9:16:05 AM, Greg Watson asked for > clarification of what I wrote: > > Hal: << Magnetic field energy is decreased as object moves into > and quenches part of the field distribution; >> > > Greg: < If the object is a soft ferromagnetic material, the field energy > increases due to the additive action of the soft aligning domains > in the ferrite.>> > > Actually, it is the opposite. When the domains align, the little, > say, south poles are attracted to the external applied, say, north pole, > and the little north poles are repelled. Therefore, the alignment of > domains within the material serve to cancel out (weaken) locally the > magnetic field that would have otherwise been there. The overall result > is that the field energy has been reduced, this energy now going into > moving the ball; i.e., field energy is transformed into kinetic energy. > > Hal Hi Hal, My book 'repertorium der natuurkunde' says: "magnetic property of the matter. --------------------------------- In the general a magnetic field is affected through the presence of matter in it's field. This matter becomes more or less magnatized and the hereof propagating induction lines are add by the orginal field. With the most materials this influence comes down on a merely adding (paramagnetism) or weakening (diamagnetism) of the magnetic field. There are nevertheless some materials, the so called ferromagnetic materials, which when put in a magnetic field, this field localy considerable strengthen (amplifies)." This text is dutch orginal, so here is the orginal text also: "Magnetische eigenschappen van de materie: ------------------------------------------ in het algemeen wordt een magnetisch veld beinvloed door de aanwezigheid van materie in dit veld. Deze materie wordt meer of minder gemagnetiseerd en de hieruit voortspruitende inductielijnen voegen zich bij het oorspronkelijke veld. Bij de meeste stoffen komt deze beinvloeding neer op een slechts geringe versterking (paramagnetisme) of verzwakking (diamagnetisme) van het magnetische veld. Er zijn echter enkele stoffen, de zogenaamde ferromagnetische materialen die, in een magnetisch veld gebracht, dit veld plaatselijk aanzienlijk versterken." This is also confirmed by the Quickfield simulation gifs. P.S.: Sorry if this msg appears twice, my outbox did strange... -- Ronald. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 15:56:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA01086; Wed, 28 May 1997 15:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BC6B7E.8F885860 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: straight SMOT ramps OU? Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:48:16 -0700 Encoding: 31 TEXT, 54 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"MTVVZ3.0.tG.YPBZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > Wow man, like, I just had a *heavy* SMOT flash... [snip] > > If you can link ramps (I saw Ben Tammetta's AVI - nice job, Ben), > and the back force at the end doesn't grow substantially with each > ramp, (and the magnets don't die), then Greg's gizmo *has* to be > OU! > > Everybody knew this already, right? > > - 99th Monkey, > Honolulu HI Umm... well, yes, some of us were made monkeys earlier than others, I suppose . It's very convincing when you make one or two and watch it go, and realize all the friction, etc that is being overcome. It was at first a bit difficult to see all the comments about the possibility of fraud or delusion, from folks that hadn't tried the *very* simple experiment. But Greg (and Jean-Louis) nipped that in the bud with his published plans, and now everyone is seeing it. That's the beauty of this device - put it in someone's hand and they have a hard time disbelieving. Knowledgeable skeptics go away converted, and with a big grin. Of course, this is only a proof-of-concept device - real output power has yet to be achieved (to my knowledge), and my guess is that a quite different implementation of the effect will be necessary for that. Right now we're just playing with sticks in the dirt, but at lease we've found the stick! (or more properly, we took the stick Greg gave us, and (most) didn't bash him over the head with it). Dan begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(A$6`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0! `(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! 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[FDQ\#- `-!H+& N`B8`YB@Q MM # 9VX2``0@,Y"],])D") P\#'B`Z!'&4#B9R^19VEZ!& G02A )2>P=#F@ M8F4L:$]55B$L:"QH11_Q>0; 9'TU(&LWD ?@,? $`"<@;!L90"<`>28`!1!G M:'3./SM/(_$O\3DY-6$?H;0>0) !S`W @,/YO+1 FL$1A&4 EP2 A!&#W0)($("=PC+!%1$Q\ -0'G TT (@^R8`$@!C1V(%0#V1.E!*0OYO'_$%H > 21),03VA M!4#<9FD1X 5 )S!B3+$X0/\-T!YP0= R\3F $?!-R%!A[P> `C ]H0;@=3+T M2)$`D#M1X"8 =#4@17$#4&%U_R<0!;$-L I `)!.P@-2,G&\;&L$($]#)O$S MTG0( ;TQU"H\DB>P`) N(&PS,=QX< 9Q4^)$4$)4<3CRQ3;$2B=P;BU,"& $ M`/XI,!%( %BC3V(#H#'S5@'[-4,]@G T<"8@*%!8H0M1_P" 301!H ?@'^(M M,$MQ/9'O4O%*0C501%!43U$OD3'S_R=P5'!5 SUS#;!*`#!!, #_7E!/<5SS M12)+82^11X$G$?\QQ#4 $< ?\"K4T$ M8#YQNU^31' G1?$FHPM1>4I#_S52 M%M ><6QA720X0 ` )@#_78!1H05 6< H0" Q9(!EP>T"$'4QQ7T#(2Y0!;$$ M8']%\1WA6A$U$"8`1' Z$6]W+>!_UUKD9V6R)K!-!"C_!& 6T%PP.$!8(S(P M*%!>`;]7,% B,>,G85VE-5 I*);]"H5$$7%Q7R':'JPAGAAA` "+X `#`! 0 M``````,`$1 `````0 `',,#K(RVV:[P!0 `(,,#K(RVV:[P!' `]``$````% 5````4D4Z( `````#``TT_3<``. 2 ` end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 15:59:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA00148; Wed, 28 May 1997 15:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338C8A42.2331 worldonline.nl> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:40:50 +0200 From: Ronald de Mol Organization: World Online X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion References: <970528132211_-1999881547 emout16.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Sbvcp.0.62.cKBZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Puthoff aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/23/97 9:16:05 AM, Greg Watson asked for > clarification of what I wrote: > > Hal: << Magnetic field energy is decreased as object moves into > and quenches part of the field distribution; >> > > Greg: < If the object is a soft ferromagnetic material, the field energy > increases due to the additive action of the soft aligning domains > in the ferrite.>> > > Actually, it is the opposite. When the domains align, the little, > say, south poles are attracted to the external applied, say, north pole, > and the little north poles are repelled. Therefore, the alignment of > domains within the material serve to cancel out (weaken) locally the > magnetic field that would have otherwise been there. The overall result > is that the field energy has been reduced, this energy now going into > moving the ball; i.e., field energy is transformed into kinetic energy. > > Hal Hi Hal, My book 'repertorium der natuurkunde' says: "magnetic property of the matter. --------------------------------- In the general a magnetic field is affected through the presence of matter in it's field. This matter becomes more or less magnatized and the hereof propagating induction lines are add by the orginal field. With the most material this influence comes down on a merely adding (paramagnetism) or weakening (diamagnetism) of the magnetic field. There are nevertheless some materials, the so called ferromagnetic materials, which put in a magnetic field this field localy considerable strengthen (amplifies)." This text is dutch orginal, so here is the orginal text also: "Magnetische eigenschappen van de materie: ------------------------------------------ in het algemeen wordt een magnetisch veld beinvloed door de aanwezigheid van materie in dit veld. Deze materie wordt meer of minder gemagnetiseerd en de hieruit voortspruitende inductielijnen voegen zich bij het oorspronkelijke veld. Bij de meeste stoffen komt deze beinvloeding neer op een slechts geringe versterking (paramagnetisme) of verzwakking (diamagnetisme) van het magnetische veld. Er zijn echter enkele stoffen, de zogenaamde ferromagnetische materialen die, in een magnetisch veld gebracht, dit veld plaatselijk aanzienlijk versterken." This is also confirmed by the Quickfield simulation gifs. -- Ronald. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 16:04:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA02129; Wed, 28 May 1997 15:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338CB705.5021 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:21:49 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT Phase 2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6E65D05C22" Resent-Message-ID: <"8glAL.0.BX.iUBZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6E65D05C22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Attached are some suggested SMOT ramp mods to make linking easier. I guess that means we have started Phase 2. Some of you are really going fast. Slow down and HELP the others, spread your experiences around. Lets get dozens if not hundreds BUILDING and PLAYING with these SMOT ramps. In Phase 2 there are several goals that I would ask ALL of you to achieve : 1) Link 4 SMOT ramps in a straignt line. 2) Lift each suceeding ramp several mm above the preceeding ramp and achieve a final lift twice the lift in the first ramp. For links based on the plans, thats a 24mm final lift height. 3) Demonstrate 8-10 ball in transit through the linked ramps. 4) Achieve a ball roll away with the lifted linked ramps. This is the first REAL proof of OU! This may seem a difficult task, but it can be done! You will need to develope good skills in ramp adjustemnts and ramp linking. After a while, you will develop a sixth sense of how to adjust your ramps. You will KNOW what will happen if you do this or that. Meanwhile, theory guys (and gals), if you don't build ramps, think about how to explain this. Its real, its on the net and it needs to be explained. As we are now moving into real interesting territory now, I ask ALL of you (Builders and Thinkers) to be as open as I have been with you. If you REALLY want to change the world, we ALL must be a part of this. And as to you fence sitters, START BUILDING! As I have been asked by many .... many people for kits, I have done some checking and have come up with the following : SMOT PHASE 2 kit 4 x SMOT ramps, including ALL components and a manual! 4 x Base assy, 16 x Straignt pins, 4 x Polished Alum "U" channels, 8 x 12mm Steel balls, 8 x Magnet arrays, 1 x Instruction manual, 1 x Signed Certificate of Authenticity and a picture of me with the linked ramps. Air mailed to anywhere on the planet. Cost : $110 US (Money orders please) To : Greg Watson, 8 Brabham Grove, Aberfoyle Park, 5159, South Australia, Australia. Your SMOT ramp kit will be posted with-in 24 hours of receiving your money. 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1997 16:16:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:16:04 -0700 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:21:58 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: Greg Watson cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT Phase 2 / or GREG comes through In-Reply-To: <338CB705.5021 microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY=------------6E65D05C22 Content-ID: Resent-Message-ID: <"T410f2.0.9V4.poBZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --------------6E65D05C22 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-ID: On Thu, 29 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > Hi All, > Attached are some suggested SMOT ramp mods to make linking easier. I > guess that means we have started Phase 2. Some of you are really going > fast. Slow down and HELP the others, spread your experiences around. *> Lets get dozens if not hundreds BUILDING and PLAYING with these SMOT *> ramps. Actually Greg, if you havn't done it all ready, you should put a world MAP on your wall and put STICK-PINS in it for everyplace that responds with a working SMOT. IT'S A SNOWBALLING EFFECT (even NOW!), I hardly have time to clear all the e-mail on it... I forsee Thousands/Millions in expotentional time frame. ! back to building 1&2smot(s) ------ Again, WAY TO GO (Hats off to you) & THANKS [This is GrEaT!!!] se ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2 freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX --------------6E65D05C22-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 16:30:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA21915; Wed, 28 May 1997 16:25:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:25:13 -0700 Message-ID: <338CBE6C.5DC8 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:53:24 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: straight SMOT ramps OU? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"a4Oec.0.IM5.OxBZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Vorts - > > Wow man, like, I just had a *heavy* SMOT flash... > > You have one straight ramp. Ball drops out to the starting level, but > sticks back against the drop rail with a certain amount of force at an > obviously lower magnetic potential than at the start. We are not very > impressed. You link two ramps. Ball ends up stuck at the end with the same > amount of force. Link three, then four ramps. Ball ends up stuck at the end > with the same amount of force. Oh! I see now - you could just keep on > linking and linking, and the ball sticks back with the *same* amount of > force at the final ramp - no matter how many ramps there are! Oh, I'm sure > there's a tiny cumulative effect for a force increase from more ramps > behind it, Not that I have seen, > but... If it were a no-win game, you'd have 4 times the force > after 4 ramps. But no matter how much friction and eddy currents and air > resistance is met, clackity clack, ramp after ramp, many feet away, you end > up with essentially the same back force. At some point, that back force > obviously isn't enough to account for all the energy spent getting the ball > to that point through all the ramps and losses. One ramp, maybe not. But > several... > > If you can link ramps (I saw Ben Tammetta's AVI - nice job, Ben), and the > back force at the end doesn't grow substantially with each ramp, (and the > magnets don't die), then Greg's gizmo *has* to be OU! > > Everybody knew this already, right? > > - 99th Monkey, > Honolulu HI Hi Rick, Its good when the light turns on. Good BUILDING and TESTING to you. Awaiting your SMOT Phase 2 results. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 16:37:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA23684; Wed, 28 May 1997 16:31:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:31:33 -0700 Message-ID: <338CBFE9.C00 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:59:45 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT QField Sims References: <199705281610.JAA01538 norway.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cM3Tt1.0.tn5.K1CZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Randall wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > Yes I agree that you spent a LOT of time and energy on the SMOT design to > make it work and then to make it easy for duplication by others. We all > thank you for sharing this information. As people successfully duplicate the > closing the loop SMOT, maybe then we figure out how to power homes with this > technology. > > The Qfield simms are a great way to explain what is happening and maybe even > answer where the energy is coming from. Any info on the return fields and > why they flow in the opposite direction? Its what magnets do. The flux returns to the other pole. > Did you ever do a sim with the ball hitting the null field at the start and > end of the ramp? I would be interested in seeing them. Will do a series and post to the web sites. > Thanks again, > Michael Hi Michael, Remember in looking at the sims that a quick mag field drop off is to the ball, like hitting a brick wall. Part of the SMOT secret is the way the entry field strength increase is very sharp and the exit is very smooth and slow. Hard entry, soft exit. Best Regards and good testing, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 16:40:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA25573; Wed, 28 May 1997 16:36:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:36:26 -0700 Message-ID: <338CC10D.22E microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:04:37 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OU "toy" References: <199705281924_MC2-1775-50E5 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ownuv.0.VF6.v5CZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Nicholas Palmer wrote: > > Hi Greg, just to let you know I'm following the excitement on Vortex. I am > asking around for British suppliers of suitable magnets and, if they can be > found, then I will attempt a replication. > BTW, I cannot seem to see the embedded GIFS etc in your messages - > they just stay in ASCII characters - I have tried reading the messages with > Netscape 2.0 and Wincim 3.0 - any suggestions? I assume they are similar to > those on Jean Louis' site? (which I have seen) > > Nick - Group Coordinator, Jersey FoE Hi Nick, I use Netscape 3.0 Gold and Win95. I don't use Mine. The gifs and Jpes are sent as attachments. More than that I can't say. Anyone else out there that can help??? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 16:46:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA10531; Wed, 28 May 1997 16:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: 28 May 97 19:36:07 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: I did something with one ramp Message-ID: <970528233606_100433.1541_BHG47-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"-9bYA1.0.Ra2.x7CZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi, > I succeed the exit run away with one ramp combined with a an other > rail on exit. I could not measured the level differences between > the start and the end but it seem there is no penalty more than 1 > mm. Are you saying that the ball rolled away from the exit, away from the influence of the magnets? If it did so, and the ball started from rest within the influence of the magnets, at about the same height, then I am at a loss to explain how this is possible. Could you clarify this for us? Or are you saying that there was a second *ramp* complete with its own magnets? In that case, the apparent anomaly would be less clear. Chris Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 17:23:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA00295; Wed, 28 May 1997 17:12:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:12:21 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:12:12 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: For our American friends... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"RmDCi3.0.T4.adCZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I couldn't resist this! Martin ========================================================================== The following is the transcript of an ACTUAL radio conversation released by the Chief of Naval Operations, of a US naval ship with Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in Oct. 1995. Reprinted in the Memorial University campus newspaper. Americans: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a collision.. Canadians: Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision. Americans: This is the captain of a US Navy ship, I say again, divert YOUR course. Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course. Americans: THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER US MISSOURI. WE ARE A LARGE WARSHIP OF THE US NAVY. DIVERT YOUR COURSE NOW ! Canadians: THIS IS A LIGHTHOUSE. Your call. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 17:23:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA32651; Wed, 28 May 1997 17:09:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:09:09 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970528181526_779450678 emout04.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:07:58 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: AntiG Correlation (Re: SMOT or RMOT) Resent-Message-ID: <"pd-LN2.0.5-7.aaCZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In a message dated 5/25/97 10:27:34 PM, you wrote: > ><< The experiment (described on Vortex) where a thin vertical sheet of >bismuth between two magnets looses weight when it is on the neutral line >between two magnets.>> > >I missed this. Can you fwd a copy? Thanks. > >Hal Puthoff I think that was Fred Epps' experiment. I tried it and saw nothing. Fred said the effect was quite large. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 17:29:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA02142; Wed, 28 May 1997 17:19:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:19:58 -0700 Date: 28 May 97 20:17:31 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: Cheap SMOT!! Message-ID: <970529001730_76016.2701_JHC93-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"h97cB2.0.OX.jkCZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts! Well, it works! I did a cheap and dirty SMOT. I took my architect's rule (triangular cross section and groved on all sides) and propped it between some ceramic tiles left over from bathroom remodelling. I taped a row of magnets to duct tape. I left a bit to tape on the edge of the magnets to tape them to the tiles. I got tired of retaping the magnets to get the correct angle and simply taped them against the rule. I then added magnets in staggered layers, 4 at the exit on either side, 3 before that, 2 before that and two sets of one each at the entrance to give me a gradient. My magnets are about 1" high and my ball is 1/2" dia. steel bearing. It works best if you elevate the ramp until the top of the ball is near the top of the magnets. I placed the ball on the rule at the entrance and it accelerated down the rule and exited and rolled off the table. I then elevated the exit end up to 20 degrees (approx.) and the ball still shot through. It starts from a complete stop and has momentum left after exiting the SMOT. The end of the ramp MUST come before the end of the magnets. Otherwise, the ball jerks back in reverse and oscillates to a stop. That's the secret, vertically exiting the field about midway through the last magnet! Okay, it works . . . now why? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 17:30:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA02689; Wed, 28 May 1997 17:21:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:21:44 -0700 Message-Id: <338CCEAF.7286BA52 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 04:32:47 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: I did something with one ramp X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970528233606_100433.1541_BHG47-2 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2P2te3.0.wf.NmCZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > Hamdi, > > > I succeed the exit run away with one ramp combined with a an other > > rail on exit. I could not measured the level differences between > > the start and the end but it seem there is no penalty more than 1 > > mm. > > Are you saying that the ball rolled away from the exit, away from the > influence of the magnets? If it did so, and the ball started from rest > within the influence of the magnets, at about the same height, then I am > at a loss to explain how this is possible. Could you clarify this for > us? Or are you saying that there was a second *ramp* complete with its > own magnets? In that case, the apparent anomaly would be less clear. > This is a one ramp setup. There is a only one set of magnets. I only added a second guide to exit like "\_______o__" this. Ball slowly drop into this ramp and accelerate by gravity and free itself from the pulling forces of the magnets. It stops somewhere on this ramp. I actually try to measure the height difference between starting point as you described and the point the ball stop on a horizontal part of the second ramp. I measured 1 - 1.5 mm height loss. No gain. But I am not sure such a potential is enough to drive the ball on my loosely setup. I think it is not possible to get a positive or negative result from this experiment. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 18:10:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA10683; Wed, 28 May 1997 18:01:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:01:05 -0700 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:57:45 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Thanks to Greg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"e8O2y1.0.Xc2.ELDZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Oh ..... and big thanks to Greg! On Wed, 28 May 1997, John Schnurer wrote: > > > The why: > > This is a field gradient device. As the ball enters the field > it is acquiring velocity from a series of magnets...... it must only > overcome the drag of one magnet to escape. > > This is a very simplistic way of looking at it. > > > I am NOT, any way, shape or form, a math type. One fellow I know > said a magnet has curl, and therefore in non conservational. I do not > follow this, nor say it is true or false, simply relaying it. > > Yes it works. And, no I will not get into an argument of > macro-micro physics, ZPE or the like..... just do as Greg said "build it" > .... I myself like it and think it will cause some young, old or > in-between amateurs or motor and magnetic circuit types to have a go at > their own designs. > > There. > > :) > > > JHS > > > > > > On 28 May 1997, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Gnorts Vorts! > > > > Well, it works! > > > > I did a cheap and dirty SMOT. I took my architect's rule (triangular cross > > section and groved on all sides) and propped it between some ceramic tiles left > > over from bathroom remodelling. I taped a row of magnets to duct tape. I left > > a bit to tape on the edge of the magnets to tape them to the tiles. I got tired > > of retaping the magnets to get the correct angle and simply taped them against > > the rule. I then added magnets in staggered layers, 4 at the exit on either > > side, 3 before that, 2 before that and two sets of one each at the entrance to > > give me a gradient. My magnets are about 1" high and my ball is 1/2" dia. steel > > bearing. It works best if you elevate the ramp until the top of the ball is > > near the top of the magnets. > > > > I placed the ball on the rule at the entrance and it accelerated down the rule > > and exited and rolled off the table. I then elevated the exit end up to 20 > > degrees (approx.) and the ball still shot through. It starts from a complete > > stop and has momentum left after exiting the SMOT. > > > > The end of the ramp MUST come before the end of the magnets. Otherwise, the > > ball jerks back in reverse and oscillates to a stop. That's the secret, > > vertically exiting the field about midway through the last magnet! > > > > Okay, it works . . . now why? > > > > Terry > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 18:12:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA09876; Wed, 28 May 1997 17:58:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:58:13 -0700 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:54:41 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex Subject: Re: Cheap SMOT!! In-Reply-To: <970529001730_76016.2701_JHC93-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"hn7PT.0.EQ2.aIDZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The why: This is a field gradient device. As the ball enters the field it is acquiring velocity from a series of magnets...... it must only overcome the drag of one magnet to escape. This is a very simplistic way of looking at it. I am NOT, any way, shape or form, a math type. One fellow I know said a magnet has curl, and therefore in non conservational. I do not follow this, nor say it is true or false, simply relaying it. Yes it works. And, no I will not get into an argument of macro-micro physics, ZPE or the like..... just do as Greg said "build it" .... I myself like it and think it will cause some young, old or in-between amateurs or motor and magnetic circuit types to have a go at their own designs. There. :) JHS On 28 May 1997, Terry Blanton wrote: > Gnorts Vorts! > > Well, it works! > > I did a cheap and dirty SMOT. I took my architect's rule (triangular cross > section and groved on all sides) and propped it between some ceramic tiles left > over from bathroom remodelling. I taped a row of magnets to duct tape. I left > a bit to tape on the edge of the magnets to tape them to the tiles. I got tired > of retaping the magnets to get the correct angle and simply taped them against > the rule. I then added magnets in staggered layers, 4 at the exit on either > side, 3 before that, 2 before that and two sets of one each at the entrance to > give me a gradient. My magnets are about 1" high and my ball is 1/2" dia. steel > bearing. It works best if you elevate the ramp until the top of the ball is > near the top of the magnets. > > I placed the ball on the rule at the entrance and it accelerated down the rule > and exited and rolled off the table. I then elevated the exit end up to 20 > degrees (approx.) and the ball still shot through. It starts from a complete > stop and has momentum left after exiting the SMOT. > > The end of the ramp MUST come before the end of the magnets. Otherwise, the > ball jerks back in reverse and oscillates to a stop. That's the secret, > vertically exiting the field about midway through the last magnet! > > Okay, it works . . . now why? > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 18:15:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA10875; Wed, 28 May 1997 18:01:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:01:38 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:01:24 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cheap SMOT!! In-Reply-To: <970529001730_76016.2701_JHC93-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"KPy762.0.pf2.mLDZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 28 May 1997, Terry Blanton wrote: > > I placed the ball on the rule at the entrance and it accelerated down the rule > and exited and rolled off the table. I then elevated the exit end up to 20 > degrees (approx.) and the ball still shot through. It starts from a complete > stop and has momentum left after exiting the SMOT. > Terry, I don't understand quite what your setup is. In any case are you saying that starting at some initial height, the ball accelerates through the SMOT, and rolls away at the starting height? Can you make it roll away at a height above your starting point? If that's the case there is something very interesting going on with just one SMOT. Can you clarify this for me? Is your exit the height the same as your starting height? Is so can you make your exit height above your starting height? Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 18:19:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA16407; Wed, 28 May 1997 18:16:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:16:23 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC6B92.E74B4BC0 chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'freenrg-l eskimo.com'" Cc: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: OU "toy" (about encoded files) Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:07:44 -0700 Encoding: 46 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"QpQzF2.0.D04.bZDZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For encoded files that don't get decoded automatically, I use WINCODE, which will encode/decode lots of stuff. It's a Windows program, hope that works for you. I looked it up at http://WWW.shareware.com/ and came up with the following FTP address for the file: ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win3/encode/wc273r16.zip Dan Quickert dequickert ucdavis.edu 916-756-0575 >---------- >From: Greg Watson >Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 1997 4:34 PM >To: freenrg-l eskimo.com >Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: OU "toy" > >Nicholas Palmer wrote: >> >> Hi Greg, just to let you know I'm following the excitement on Vortex. I am >> asking around for British suppliers of suitable magnets and, if they can be >> found, then I will attempt a replication. >> BTW, I cannot seem to see the embedded GIFS etc in your messages - >> they just stay in ASCII characters - I have tried reading the messages with >> Netscape 2.0 and Wincim 3.0 - any suggestions? I assume they are similar to >> those on Jean Louis' site? (which I have seen) >> >> Nick - Group Coordinator, Jersey FoE > >Hi Nick, > >I use Netscape 3.0 Gold and Win95. I don't use Mine. The gifs and Jpes >are sent as attachments. More than that I can't say. Anyone else out >there that can help??? > > >Best Regards, > Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 19:02:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA29780; Wed, 28 May 1997 18:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970528185421.00ad62b4 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:54:22 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: t Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"m5P452.0.EH7.h7EZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: t From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 19:23:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA31785 for billb@eskimo.com; Wed, 28 May 1997 19:23:05 -0700 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:23:05 -0700 X-Envelope-From: HLafonte aol.com Wed May 28 19:23:03 1997 Received: from emout17.mail.aol.com (emout17.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.43]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA31743 for ; Wed, 28 May 1997 19:22:59 -0700 From: HLafonte aol.com Received: (from root localhost) by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA10393 for vortex-l eskimo.com; Wed, 28 May 1997 22:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Old-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970528222209_-1263978418 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fwd: BULLETIN !!! BULLETIN!!! IT WORKS OTHER WAYS ALSO!!! X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: BULLETIN !!! BULLETIN!!! IT WORKS OTHER WAYS ALSO!!! Date: 97-05-28 21:37:41 EDT From: HLafonte To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Greg, You are not going to believe what I am about to tell you! I was thinking about how long it would take me to round up all the parts for your fixture, and then I saw on the list the mention of the kit. Well I got to thinking how long It would take in the mail and I am the kind of person who likes to do things now or sooner. I got to looking in my " junk box" from old experments, and found two one inch long by 7/ 8 " diameter, neodymium-iron-boron magnets that I had use to play with about a year ago to see if the magnetic switches I had read about, worked. I had two soft steel bars 2 and one half inches long by one half inch thick by one inch wide. I put the magnet on the back of one of the one inch wide sides at the middle of the bars length. I did the same with the other bar. Then I placed the two on my table in a v shape as you do. Then I got a one and one half inch steel ball I had given to my daughter I found in a machine shop years ago, and put it in the center groove of a plastic foot ruler my daughter had. I put the ruller between the two bars and elevated the end one eight inch above the table top. I checked the ramp without the magnets to make sure the ball rolled down to prove it was a slope. It rolled down very fast. I then put the magnets back with nothing holding them in place, just their weight holding them down. I rolled the magnet up the ramp to about one half inch from the v and when I felt the slighest pull from the bars I let it go. The first time it stoped at the end of the magnets and I noticed that the end of the ruler was past the magnets. I moved it to just past the end of the magnets and the second time it rolled up the ramp from a dead stop to the end of the ruller and fell off !!! I want to put a video on the net and pictures of it. How do I go about it ? I have never done any of that before. It works every time and I want to show every one another way of doing what you have discovered. I am so excited I can hardly type, this is more fun than I've had in years! How do I get It on the net in video? Thanks, Butch LaFonte From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 19:27:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA31217; Wed, 28 May 1997 19:19:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:19:39 -0700 Date: 28 May 97 22:17:31 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Cheap SMOT!! Message-ID: <970529021730_76016.2701_JHC69-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"nsru43.0.hd7.wUEZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin Sevoir asks: >>Can you make it roll away at a height above your starting point?<< Take your rule and hold it horizontally and place the ball in one of the gooves. You can roll the ball back and forth across one side with little resistance. I simply propped this up with ceramic tiles (for mass). At first the exit point was equal to the entrance point in elevation. The ball started from a stopped position and left the exit with significant momentum. I then elevated the exit end of the assembly (using more tiles) and could get the ball to exit the arrangement up to an angle of approximately 20 degrees with remaining momentum. >> If that's the case there is something very interesting going on with just one SMOT.<< Yes the excess momentum (plus the mechanical losses) seems to violate conservation of energy. I wonder if I can get rotary motion by using curved magnets and and a non-conducting disk with some ferrite nodules? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 19:33:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA32282; Wed, 28 May 1997 19:25:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:25:06 -0700 Message-ID: <338CE887.58FA microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:53:03 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT Kits, Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"y927K1.0.Du7.0aEZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Sorry for the confusion. I am too used to dealing in US Dollars. The pricing is $150 Aust Dollars via an International Bank Cheque. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 19:40:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA04603; Wed, 28 May 1997 19:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: 28 May 97 22:23:13 EDT From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: COLD FUSION on ABC TV 5/30/97 Message-ID: <970529022313_76570.2270_FHU49-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"T54aX3.0.q71.zbEZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: COLD FUSION on ABC TV "Good Morning America" Friday, May 30,1997 Infinite Energy Magazine has received a very important press release from Clean Energy Technologies, Inc. It is reproduced below. We hope colleagues and readers of this forum will be sure to watch this *currently scheduled* ABC television science and technology program. Sincerely, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 76570.2270 compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JedRothwell ********************************************************************************* * Clean Energy Technologies, Inc. MEDIA RELEASE May 28, 1997 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE WHEN: May 30, 1997 (FRIDAY) Scheduled to air between 7:00 a.m. and 8:00 a.m. WHERE: Good Morning America on ABC Television WHAT: ABC Science Editor, Michael Guillen, will air the second broadcast on new and improved technologies from Clean Energy Technologies, Inc. A special segment on our radioactive waste remediation technology will be featured. Also featured is the first prototype water heater technology. This is a much anticiapted follow-up to the initial story aired February 7, 1996 by ABC-News on Good Morning America and Nightline. Clean Energy Technologies, Inc. is a corporation specializing in the development and licensing of new technologies. Clean Energy Technologies, Inc. has exclusive worldwide rights to the patents of respected scientists and inventor, James A. Patterson and Dennis Cravens. For More Information, Contact: Douglas Collins Vice President of Sales and marketing Telephones: 702-823-9889 941-951-2384 Fax: 702-828-2623 2074 20th Street, Sarasota, Florida 34234 * (941)951-2384 * Fax (941)365-0487 Internet Home Page: www.cleanenergy.com/ceti ********************************************************************************* *** Also, in the following week there will be this scientific meeting: (Notice From INFINITE ENERGY, Issue #12, published early May 1997): American Nuclear Society Annual Meeting in June to Feature Cold Fusion Speakers and Possible (Probable?) Demonstration Units Yet another ANS (American Nuclear Society) meeting will feature a cold fusion component. This time, there will be presentations by speakers. Here are the particulars of the meeting, provided to us by Prof. George Miley of the Dept. of Nuclear Engineering, University of Illinois (Registration information may be found at www.ans.org): American Nuclear Society Annual Meeting Orlando, Florida, June 1-5, 1997 Room Grand XIV, Session 8.6 "Low Energy Nuclear Reactions" (JUNE 4, 1997) Panel Session Sponsor: Isotopes and Radiation Division The panel members will provide 20 minute presentations of their views and research related to Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR), after which an open interchange of questions and comments will be held with the audience. LENR includes possible nuclear reactions in solids loaded with reacting materials such as hydrogen and deuterium (cf. Cold fusion energy production, transmutation reactions, and other unique anomalous effects), as well as effects related to collapse of supercritical bubbles in the liquid phase in contact with solids. Interest in these areas has exponentiated following presentations at ICCF-6 (International Conference on Cold Fusion) in Sapporro, Japan reporting significant nuclear transmutations of metals by LENR in solids. While still hotly debated, these results deserve strong consideration by ANS members. Co-Chairs: George Miley (Univ. of Illinois) Jim Patterson (Clean Energy Technologies, Inc.). Panelists: John O'M Bochris (Texas A&M); Lali Chatterjee (Cumberland University); Tom Claytor (LLNL); Heinz Hora (UNSW); Russ George (Pacific Technology); John Dash (Portland State University); Dennis Cravens (Clean Energy Technologies). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 20:21:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA08759; Wed, 28 May 1997 20:15:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:15:13 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:14:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970528231429_-961470025 emout15.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion Resent-Message-ID: <"-bgwm1.0.m82._IFZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 5/29/97 1:21:30 AM, Evan asked: <> At the "classical physics" level, I guess I would say "potential." If I go to the "Quantum physics" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 20:25:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA10542; Wed, 28 May 1997 20:23:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:23:15 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970528232221_1358620223 emout18.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion Resent-Message-ID: <"fl4lT2.0.ea2.XQFZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Oops, hit the wrong button before I was finished In a message dated 5/29/97 1:21:30 AM, Evan asked: <> At the "classical physics level," "potential." At the "quantum physics" level, with virtual photon exchange, though usually called potential anyway, it gets close to kinetic if you label radiation kinetic. I know, I'm getting dangerously close to gyroscopic (especially since photons have spin = 1!). However, if my understanding of Newman is correct, he pictures gyroscopic particles following field lines, while photons (even "virtual" ones) follow straight lines. If you want to go more fundamental, it has been shown that Maxwell's equations can be derived from an underlying fluid flow model wherein the fluid has microscopic vortexes (Ed Kelly at Pomona State College in Calif). In that case I might have to say "kinetic." Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 20:48:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA15104; Wed, 28 May 1997 20:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <338CF8A9.F1F59EB5 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:31:53 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Watson Cc: vortex Subject: SMOT Criteria X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"prUhi.0.wh3.6fFZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg, It will useful to include an over-unity criteria to describe exactly on which condition the toy can be considered exhibiting over-unity effect and not. I think on most cases the thickness of the ramp was not taken account and when the ball go away from the exit on any conditions, it is assumed as OU effect. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 21:22:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA19867; Wed, 28 May 1997 21:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:10:46 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Suddenly things get very interesting! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"c-Nls1.0.Is4.-7GZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: First Greg Watson claims to have not one but two different sorts of Perpetual Motion Machines. Then releases details so that all and sundry can eventually make them. (My phase 1 worked too.) Then Terry Blantan and maybe Hamdi Ucar claim to have seen OU effects in a single ramp. Then Eugene Mallove tells us about the next CETI step. Aparently the long awaited water heater is here! Lots of interesting stuff. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 21:39:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA23150; Wed, 28 May 1997 21:32:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:32:39 -0700 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:38:42 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: freenrg-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: correction on ball dia. MINE WORKS In-Reply-To: <970528230001_336934004 emout15.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"rxWKQ3.0.af5.cRGZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 28 May 1997 HLafonte aol.com wrote: > Greg, > Steel ball dia. is 1 and 1/4 " not 1 and 1/2", I was very excited, sorry. > Butch > Finally got enough little magnets - COUNT ME IN on WORKING SMOT1! - I only have 3 Balls :) and some Buckshot and BB's :( laying around. ALL THREE BALLS WORK 18mm/20mm(mouse type ball)/25mm. or in decimal/US 3/4"/ 7/8" /15/16"(auto wheel bearing). They ALL Accelerate and jump! out of the raised end,.. to which my wife said the same thing as Gregs' wife " well, of course the do silly." I don't think she grasps just how much FASTER the EXIT (zoom) is to the INPUT (null) and its implications.... THIS IS GREAT GOING ON TO SMOT2! -------------------------- Oh, while waiting on exact parts (and I'm glad Greg is selling kits! WE ALL HIM ANYWAY HERE -eh?), I wanted to let some of you know that the RADIO SHACK part #64-1879 'Choke magnets' WORK OK! Rather than the 'V' entry exit, I set the side metal bars parallel and STACKED as someone mentioned earlier today. 1-2-3-4 DEEP (per side) North on one side SOUTH on the other.. noted N/N or S/S not near as FORCEFUL(zoomable)... Looking forward to CLOSE the LOOP... wish original plans were BIGGER though. This will make one hell of a MUFFLED RAIL GUN!!! I hope all this international "Brain-Power" can get us a Rotory-in-a-can so i can take it up camping. se ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2 freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 21:46:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA23371; Wed, 28 May 1997 21:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338D0A1E.60CF gorge.net> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:46:22 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT Phase 2 References: <199705290030.RAA04871 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9JJ-N1.0.0j5.aYGZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg wrote: > Meanwhile, theory guys (and gals), if you don't build ramps, think about > how to explain this. Its real, its on the net and it needs to be > explained. > Being a "theory only" (for now) let me offer my own personal explanation: 1. Anyone who has done any serious manipulation and experimentation (playing) with permanent magnets comes tothe obvious intuitive conclusion that permanent magnets DO WORK. (ie ACCOMPLISH WORK) 2. The only problem has been that all magnetic fields curve back to their cource. No magnetic MONOPOLES found yet. This means any WORK done by a permanent magnet stops, when the active member approaches an attractive pole. 3. All that has been necessary is a way to "break through" the end of the working portion of the field. 4. This is just what Greg Watson has done. Gravity, (and, I think, an attenuation of the exit field) breaks the ball loose from the exit field. Simple, what? Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 22:26:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA27203; Wed, 28 May 1997 22:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:22:02 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970529012042_-1999803064 emout19.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: LINKED SMOTs : TEST PASSED Resent-Message-ID: <"AVNtu3.0.ze6.t9HZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I have tested SUCCESSFULLY two linked SMOTs, its work very well but the adjustement must be very accurate. The disruption gap between the magnetic potential ( in the null zone ) and the potential energy of gravity for regauging the system ( T.Bearden theory) must be adjusted precisely. ( look at my picture ) As said Grag Watson : " The height of the magnets MUST be less than the lift otherwise you will not be able to get the ramps to link. " I have linked two SMOTs ( V 1.02 ) devices, each SMOT is composed of : - 2 Magnetic RAMPS : Each ramp : 15 magnets in 3 layers of 5 magnets, Ceramic Magnets( ferrite ) : 25 x 40 x 10 mm A wide steel backing : 25 x 200 x 4 mm 25 mm steel ball 20 x 20 mm aluminum U channel Plywood and cardboard for the base Magnetic ramps spec : Input gauge : 70 mm Output gauge : 58 mm Height of slope : 25 mm Length : 90 mm (slope) + 20 mm ( entrance ) You will find all pictures and videos in my web site at : http://members.aol.com/overunity3/html/s102jln.htm We are on the way of Overunity..... SMOTy yours, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 22:29:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA32726; Wed, 28 May 1997 22:27:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:27:34 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970529012657_1291500109 emout16.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Ping test - ignore Resent-Message-ID: <"nZUqo.0.F_7.4FHZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: sorry for this ping test, JLN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 22:31:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA00557; Wed, 28 May 1997 22:29:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:29:40 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338D1436.6E36 math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:29:26 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Suddenly things get very interesting! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DOkJT1.0.T8.3HHZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin Sevior wrote: > >. (My phase 1 worked too.) > > .... OU effects in a single ramp. > > ... the next CETI step. Aparently the long > awaited water heater is here! > > Lots of interesting stuff. > > Martin Sevior Martin, I think you are starting to lose your grip on reality. Your a physicist, man---get hold of yourself! :-) You've been in the game long enough to know that claims, demonstrations and TV appearances don't translate into physical reality. A phenomena can have all those things (to wit, psychic functioning) and strecth on indefinitely with no resolution...Don't fall out of your chair just yet. By the way: your last post about the ship vs. the lighthouse was what we in the US call an "urban legend"---i.e. a hoax. Get a grip. man. Next thing you know, you'll have your own theory of Anti-Gravity :-). -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 23:06:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA04432; Wed, 28 May 1997 22:59:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:59:38 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:05:35 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: apology to GREG (typo) In-Reply-To: <970529012657_1291500109 emout16.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"aY-cH2.0.751.9jHZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg, Well, I too got smot1 working and was so exicited I typed out a blurb about it a few messages ago that said "well, we all him anyway?" (err) THAT should have read "well, we all OWE him anyway!" ... (sorry about that normally a word or character drop here or there usually won't make a difference...(yes, I saw the recent post about spell checker(s)).. --------------------------- This should be a 'No Duh' to everyone that has a 'working' unit by now (make a control North/South magnet) paint! the end as I'm sure we all figured out the flip flop of N/S in our hand (damn these little magnets sure like to jump around :) Mine (temp's) are the radio shack #64-1879 square one's (like a large postage stamp with a hole in the center) their face is LARGE enough to 'Stick' without tape or super glue.. hence i havn't used that yet..(flip N/S flip-flip) but they will STICK if you don't jostle them.. this allow unlimited adjustments - higher/lower center-line etc... ANYWAY.. for those of you who might be just Starting to make your SMOT1 -- Grab any magnet (and call that your "control" magnet) PAINT one side with your wifes finger nail polish or paint etc.. that is your NORTH (at least for the smot) I have found this handy when the NON super-glued/sans tape magnets flip and almost fall back into position you can easily find the culprit (inverted pole) by passing your 'control' magnet over it--- small tip I know, but i even had to remind myself not to bring it too close to the computer here (erase floppies) to measure it.. DUH! :) well, what can I say - except if I can build one so can you hold outs out there --- like Greg said "Just Build it!" on to smot2 se ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2 freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 23:39:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA08182 for billb@eskimo.com; Wed, 28 May 1997 23:39:17 -0700 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:39:17 -0700 X-Envelope-From: msevior liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU Wed May 28 23:39:15 1997 Received: from liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU [128.250.50.41]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA08146 for ; Wed, 28 May 1997 23:39:09 -0700 Received: (from msevior localhost) by liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id QAA13344; Thu, 29 May 1997 16:39:00 +1000 Old-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:39:00 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Suddenly things get very interesting! In-Reply-To: <338D1436.6E36 math.ucla.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 28 May 1997, Barry Merriman wrote: > > Get a grip. man. Next thing you know, you'll have your own > theory of Anti-Gravity :-). > Can't help it. This SMOT thing is too much fun not to enjoy. Why can't professionals have fun too! Cheers Martin PS. I've been thinking about whether a permanent magnet is in a lower energy state magnetized or unmagnetized and if one can make an estimate of how much energy is stored in a ferromagnet. My answer is that a magnetized permanent magnet is in a state of higher energy than unmagnetized. Here is my estimate of its energy. The energy stored in a magnetic field is E= 0.5*V*B**2/mu Where V = volume in meters cubed, B= Magnetic field intensity (in Tesla) and mu is the magnetic permeability of the material containing the magnetic field. Typically for the sized magnets used by Greg Watson and everyone else on SMOT bandwagon we can take, B = 0.1 tesla, V, Volume = 0.1*0.1*0.1 = 0.001 meters cubed and mu = 4*pi*10**-7 for free space. In free space the Energy = 0.5*(0.1)**5/(4*3.14159*10**-7) = 4 Joules. Inside the magnet mu is about 10,000 times greater than free space so the energy there is negligable. So my rough guess is that there is 4 Joules of energy in a typical SMOT setup. How long would it take to consume this energy? Greg Watson says that 4 linked ramps can lift a 12 mm ball, 12 mm in height. A 12 mm diameter ball weighs about 5 grams so the gravitational energy is: E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.12 = 0.006 Joules. Given that we have 4 Joules of energy, that means our typical 4 ramp SMOT has a lifetime of about 680 lifts to 12 mm in height. After that we have to worry about something else as a source of energy. That's quite a lot of runs, maybe that's all that's going on here. The effect would be a slow decrease in magnetic field strength with use. Eventually the effect would cease. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 28 23:48:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA08734; Wed, 28 May 1997 23:43:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:43:54 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:43:37 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Professional fun and a damper for O/U. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"wc4xB3.0.L82.fMIZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 28 May 1997, Barry Merriman wrote: > > Get a grip. man. Next thing you know, you'll have your own > theory of Anti-Gravity :-). > Can't help it. This SMOT thing is too much fun not to enjoy. Why can't professionals have fun too! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Meanwhile, I've been thinking about whether a permanent magnet is in a lower energy state magnetized or unmagnetized and if one can make an estimate of how much energy is stored in a ferromagnet. My answer is that a magnetized permanent magnet is in a state of higher energy than unmagnetized. Here is my estimate of its energy. The energy stored in a magnetic field is E= 0.5*V*B**2/mu Where V = volume in meters cubed, B= Magnetic field intensity (in Tesla) and mu is the magnetic permeability of the material containing the magnetic field. Typically for the sized magnets used by Greg Watson and everyone else on SMOT bandwagon we can take, B = 0.1 tesla, V, Volume = 0.1*0.1*0.1 = 0.001 meters cubed and mu = 4*pi*10**-7 for free space. In free space the Energy = 0.5*(0.1)**5/(4*3.14159*10**-7) = 4 Joules. Inside the magnet mu is about 10,000 times greater than free space so the energy there is negligable. So my rough guess is that there is 4 Joules of energy in a typical SMOT setup. How long would it take to consume this energy? Greg Watson says that 4 linked ramps can lift a 12 mm ball, 12 mm in height. A 12 mm diameter ball weighs about 5 grams so the gravitational energy is: E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.12 = 0.006 Joules. Given that we have 4 Joules of energy, that means our typical 4 ramp SMOT has a lifetime of about 680 lifts to 12 mm in height. After that we have to worry about something else as a source of energy. That's quite a lot of runs, maybe that's all that's going on here. The effect would be a slow decrease in magnetic field strength with use. Eventually the effect would cease. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 00:05:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA07961; Thu, 29 May 1997 00:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338D2926.2253 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:28:46 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT Phase 2, 3, 4 References: <199705290603.XAA18984 iceland.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tEap3.0.Jy1.feIZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Randall wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > Great idea to sell kits! Though I am planning on building all four phases, I > would be interested in buying your SMOT Phase 4, close the loop kit, if you > plan on putting one together, to see how you built it. > > Best Regards, > Michael With all the improvments happening, I have modified the Phases and will show how to close the loop in Phase 3 with the improved ramps. But others may be there before me! Details of the improvments will be posted in the next day or so. The improved ramps will be in the kits. The kits are very well made. Base of dark plexi-glass. Quite presentable for the "Exec Desk". Strong enough for the lab. Overall a well designed and built set of SMOT ramps. Each ramp will be numbered, dated and signed by me. I must try and get some sleep, sometime. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 00:15:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA13221; Thu, 29 May 1997 00:14:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:14:15 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705290714.AAA06042 iceland.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: SMOT query Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"2HIqk1.0.RE3.6pIZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Greg, Well the magnets (3/8"x1/4"x7/8", source posted 5/25) arrived today and I built a ramp using your design info converted into english dimensions. And it works! Due to the thicker dimension of the magnets, the assay magnetic field was too strong for 1/2" ball but worked great for the 5/8" steel ball. Next planning on Phase II, the four ramp SMOT. Glad to hear your offering kits! It will help those that can't find all of the parts and will be a real time saver without the need in experimenting with different componets. Best Regards, Michael Randall BTW, if anyone is having any problem with their unit or would like more info on my unit, feel free to ask me any question. I don't have access to computer video or scanning equipment just yet. The video's that others have done for their units says it all already! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 00:16:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA12526; Thu, 29 May 1997 00:09:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:09:55 -0700 Date: 29 May 97 03:08:56 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Cheap SMOT!! Message-ID: <970529070855_100433.1541_BHG58-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"1b5jP.0.e33.2lIZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Martin wrote to Terry: > In any case are you saying that starting at some initial height, > the ball accelerates through the SMOT, and rolls away at the > starting height? Can you make it roll away at a height above your > starting point? If that's the case there is something very > interesting going on with just one SMOT. Actually, I think that even if the heights are the same on entry and exit, then we have an "apparent anomaly" since the magnetic potential is lower at the start point than after the roll-away. The fact that Terry is now making it clear that he gets (a) extra height and (b) extra momentum as well as a lower magnetic potential - not to mention the overcoming of friction and all the rest of it - makes me think that ... er ... he should ... er ... double check everything ... It is weird though, innit? We are all very familiar with the old story - there's this guy who says he can make a machine which just goes and goes; then others try and theirs don't. So, when this guy comes along and says his works, and we see people on just about every continent on the planet reporting strange goings-on ... well, I hope to see what happens here soon, but I know that even if I see a "Blanton one-ramp rollaway" then I won't believe it. And I'll certainly be looking for any reason (good reason) to explain it away. And if *I* can't cope with a "rollaway" - how will some people I could mention (but won't) handle it? Apoplexy, I shouldn't wonder. By the way, IS there any good reason why a "one-ramp rollaway at the same level" should not be regarded as something to take seriously, even if there is no height gain? I'm feeling a dichotomy here (ouch), in that half of me would like the security blanket of a *good* explanation and the other half wants to believe that it is over-unity. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 00:28:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA10981; Thu, 29 May 1997 00:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:31:45 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Art Bell WANTS smot-x Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"VxYJE.0.Uh2.R-IZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey all vorts just sitting here playing smot1 to smot2 linkage and have ART BELL the radio host (national?/international?) asking an old 'Ham radio' friend where the hell are the time travelers (IF there are time machines) - where are the UFO people (IF there are UFO's) -- and where are the o/u Over Unity machines if O/U is possible! his guest mentioned he will 'soon be invited to see the CF updates/releases -swears "it does work, but you can't get a kit, because it needs super-sensitive calorometers to detect the measurments and IF it runs 'dry' it might BLOW up! (ohhhhh)... ---------------------------------------- anyway, GREG , and SMOT'ters, ART said he "would 'Die' for even a little TOY to play with... anything to show that the potentional of of O/U, that he could play with"..... this might /ormight not be a GREAT exposure medium. He claims the largest night audiance of all the air-waves.. -------------------------------------------- presently however, he's guest is just now giving a way to 'make' a home Cold Fusion experiment home using "nickels in water" and passing current through it. (says answers are a YEAR OUT for practical units/kits) ----------------------------------------------- ps. he loved & promoted the levitron to a profitable endeavor.. Thoughts? ============================================ Greg: would a freeby Kit pay off here (in your plan of things/exposure) or are we too soon?? ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2 freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 00:29:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA14676; Thu, 29 May 1997 00:27:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:27:49 -0700 Message-ID: <338D2F83.369B microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:55:55 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Professional fun and a damper for O/U. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jrgVo3.0.Ab3.p_IZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin Sevior wrote: > > On Wed, 28 May 1997, Barry Merriman wrote: > > > > Get a grip. man. Next thing you know, you'll have your own > > theory of Anti-Gravity :-). > > > Can't help it. This SMOT thing is too much fun not to enjoy. Why can't > professionals have fun too! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Meanwhile, I've been thinking about whether a permanent magnet is > in a lower energy state magnetized or unmagnetized and if one can make an > estimate of how much energy is stored in a ferromagnet. > > My answer is that a magnetized permanent magnet is in a state of higher > energy than unmagnetized. Here is my estimate of its energy. > > The energy stored in a magnetic field is E= 0.5*V*B**2/mu That works fine for a electromagnet's field, where we convert the input current flow into the coils mag field. In the same electromagnet, changes in the mag field caused by other moving magnetic sources are reflected into the coil's current and the coil's current alters to keep the coil's mag field constant. Using the same logic, its not the existing field thats of interest, but like the moving electrons in the wire of the coil, its what happening to the moving electrons in the domains / iron atoms that are required to supply any lost energy from the PM's field. Over to Hal and ZPE at this point. > Where V = volume in meters cubed, B= Magnetic field intensity (in Tesla) > and mu is the magnetic permeability of the material containing the magnetic > field. > > Typically for the sized magnets used by Greg Watson and everyone else on > SMOT bandwagon we can take, B = 0.1 tesla, V, Volume = > 0.1*0.1*0.1 = 0.001 meters cubed and mu = 4*pi*10**-7 for free space. > > In free space the Energy = 0.5*(0.1)**5/(4*3.14159*10**-7) = 4 Joules. > > Inside the magnet mu is about 10,000 times greater than free space so the > energy there is negligable. > > So my rough guess is that there is 4 Joules of energy in a typical > SMOT setup. > > How long would it take to consume this energy? Its not the energy in the field that's the concern. Its where this energy is coming from and WHY it stays (like a EM coil's field) constant. And I am NOT talking about the energy necessary to make the magnet or align the domains. > Greg Watson says that 4 linked ramps can lift a 12 mm ball, 12 mm in height. One ramp can do that. I have achieved 27mm as a max and still get release. Others have achieved over 50mm. > A 12 mm diameter ball weighs about 5 grams so the gravitational energy is: > > E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.12 = 0.006 Joules. > > Given that we have 4 Joules of energy, that means our typical 4 ramp > SMOT has a lifetime of about 680 lifts to 12 mm in height. After that we have > to worry about something else as a source of energy. I have exceeded that figure by approx 5 times to date with SMOT ramp testing. The RMOD was much .... much more. > That's quite a lot of runs, maybe that's all that's going on here. The effect > would be a slow decrease in magnetic field strength with use. Eventually the > effect would cease. I don't think you really believe that. Don't tell me there is more than one devil's advocate here! Nothing like a good theory fight!. And the winner of ROUND 1 is ???????? Where is Barry??????? > Martin Sevior Hi Martin, I have NEVER seen a magnet die by use. Heavy external demag field, yes, use within its B/H curve no. I have looked for reduced flux in some of my oldest magnets. No measurable (hall effect device) flux reduction. The magnets in the original RMOD device ran for almost 4 days until I stopped (it wore out physically). It was those that I measured before and after. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 00:41:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA16155; Thu, 29 May 1997 00:39:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:39:47 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:45:49 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: Greg Watson cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT Phase 2, 3, 4 In-Reply-To: <338D2926.2253 microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"nO3fp1.0.Ly3.2BJZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 29 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > I must try and get some sleep, sometime. > Best Regards, > Greg I think I mentioned that to you once before .... please DO take some time off (Sleep) and let us catch up with smots in the raw... YOU'VE EARNED IT ALREADY.. we will BE here... waiting with bated breath. AND we're working like crazy to catch-up / jump over to new areas / and are trying to do ALL that you did in less time! ------------------------- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ------------------------- if you can't, I hope the 'fame' is what you first IMAGINED and is worth it for you & yours! -enjoy- ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2 freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX i could use the sleep too, but it's too much fun!!!!!!! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 00:41:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA16344; Thu, 29 May 1997 00:40:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:40:21 -0700 Message-ID: <338D3275.C2D microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:08:29 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cheap SMOT!! References: <970529070855_100433.1541_BHG58-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"f24671.0.7_3.XBJZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > Martin wrote to Terry: > > > In any case are you saying that starting at some initial height, > > the ball accelerates through the SMOT, and rolls away at the > > starting height? Can you make it roll away at a height above your > > starting point? If that's the case there is something very > > interesting going on with just one SMOT. > > Actually, I think that even if the heights are the same on entry and > exit, then we have an "apparent anomaly" since the magnetic potential > is lower at the start point than after the roll-away. The fact that > Terry is now making it clear that he gets (a) extra height and (b) > extra momentum as well as a lower magnetic potential - not to mention > the overcoming of friction and all the rest of it - makes me think that > ... er ... he should ... er ... double check everything ... I did the first time I got a roll away. But the device still worked and when I reported I, all I got was Bull.hit. Close the loop. Muffled laughter in the background. > It is weird though, innit? We are all very familiar with the old > story - there's this guy who says he can make a machine which just > goes and goes; then others try and theirs don't. So, when this guy > comes along and says his works, and we see people on just about every > continent on the planet reporting strange goings-on ... well, I hope to > see what happens here soon, but I know that even if I see a "Blanton > one-ramp rollaway" then I won't believe it. And I'll certainly be > looking for any reason (good reason) to explain it away. Explain it away? You think its not real? Why? Do yo really believe we KNOW everyting about everything. In time, you all will realize I DON'T claim anything I can't prove. Its not good for LONG TERM business. > And if *I* can't cope with a "rollaway" - how will some people I could > mention (but won't) handle it? Apoplexy, I shouldn't wonder. It took me several weeks to accept it. I still have problems with it. An I am only a EE. Would give most PHD's a severe headache and cause them to go running to hold onto their research grant. > By the way, IS there any good reason why a "one-ramp rollaway at the > same level" should not be regarded as something to take seriously, even > if there is no height gain? I'm feeling a dichotomy here (ouch), in > that half of me would like the security blanket of a *good* explanation > and the other half wants to believe that it is over-unity. I took it very seriously. Thats why we are here today. > Chris Hi Chris, Interesting times, NO? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 00:49:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA17858; Thu, 29 May 1997 00:48:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:48:21 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705290748.AAA11849 iceland.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: SMOT Phase 2, 3, 4 Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"J8GXA3.0.oM4.4JJZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Greg, Am I reading this correctly, that the kit can close-the-loop Phase 3 & 4? If so, please hold a unit for me, my postal money order will be in the mail tomorrow! Best Regards, Michael Randall At 04:28 PM 5/29/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: >Michael Randall wrote: >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> Great idea to sell kits! Though I am planning on building all four phases, I >> would be interested in buying your SMOT Phase 4, close the loop kit, if you >> plan on putting one together, to see how you built it. >> >> Best Regards, >> Michael > >With all the improvments happening, I have modified the Phases and will >show how to close the loop in Phase 3 with the improved ramps. But >others may be there before me! > >Details of the improvments will be posted in the next day or so. > >The improved ramps will be in the kits. > >The kits are very well made. >Base of dark plexi-glass. >Quite presentable for the "Exec Desk". >Strong enough for the lab. >Overall a well designed and built set of SMOT ramps. >Each ramp will be numbered, dated and signed by me. > >I must try and get some sleep, sometime. > > >Best Regards, > Greg > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 00:51:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA13827; Thu, 29 May 1997 00:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338D3410.57A8 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:15:20 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Art Bell WANTS smot-x References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"anT4A.0.tN3.9JJZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve Ekwall wrote: > > Hey all vorts > just sitting here playing smot1 to smot2 linkage and have ART BELL the > radio host (national?/international?) asking an old 'Ham radio' friend > where the hell are the time travelers (IF there are time machines) - where > are the UFO people (IF there are UFO's) -- and where are the o/u Over > Unity machines if O/U is possible! his guest mentioned he will 'soon be > invited to see the CF updates/releases -swears "it does work, but you > can't get a kit, because it needs super-sensitive calorometers to detect > the measurments and IF it runs 'dry' it might BLOW up! (ohhhhh)... > ---------------------------------------- > anyway, GREG , and SMOT'ters, ART said he "would 'Die' for even a little > TOY > to play with... anything to show that the potentional of of O/U, that he > could play with"..... this might /ormight not be a GREAT exposure medium. > He claims the largest night audiance of all the air-waves.. > -------------------------------------------- > presently however, he's guest is just now giving a way to 'make' a home > Cold Fusion experiment home using "nickels in water" and passing current > through it. (says answers are a YEAR OUT for practical units/kits) > ----------------------------------------------- > ps. he loved & promoted the levitron to a profitable endeavor.. Thoughts? > > ============================================ > Greg: would a freeby Kit pay off here (in your plan of things/exposure) > or are we too soon?? If I present it personally! > > ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ > -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 Hi Steve, Don't know Art Bell, but I would be interested in talking. By the way, I am a very good public speaker who presents and debates well. Any talk show, lecture circuit offers? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 00:51:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA18593; Thu, 29 May 1997 00:50:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:50:28 -0700 Message-ID: <338D34DC.4652 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:18:44 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT Phase 2, 3, 4 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eJ1JT3.0.RY4.3LJZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve Ekwall wrote: > > On Thu, 29 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > > > I must try and get some sleep, sometime. > > Best Regards, > > Greg > > I think I mentioned that to you once before .... please DO take some time > off (Sleep) and let us catch up with smots in the raw... YOU'VE EARNED > IT ALREADY.. we will BE here... waiting with bated breath. AND we're > working like crazy to catch-up / jump over to new areas / and are trying > to do ALL that you did in less time! > > ------------------------- > zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz > ------------------------- > if you can't, I hope the 'fame' is what you first IMAGINED and is worth it > for you & yours! -enjoy- > > ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ > -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 Hi Steve, I am an old trooper at this stuff. Built a Multi-million dollar business once before, then I semi-retired. Found out that is the challenge of making thing happen that keeps me a very young 50. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 00:55:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA19591; Thu, 29 May 1997 00:54:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:54:27 -0700 Message-ID: <338D35C2.675F microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:22:34 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: SMOT Phase 2, 3, 4] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"n0Zx-2.0.0o4.oOJZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Message-ID: <338D359F.25F4 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:21:59 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT Phase 2, 3, 4 References: <199705290748.AAA11849 iceland.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Randall wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > Am I reading this correctly, that the kit can close-the-loop Phase 3 & 4? If > so, please hold a unit for me, my postal money order will be in the mail > tomorrow! > > Best Regards, > Michael Randall Hi Michael, Yes, the improved SMOT ramps in the kit will close. Send International Bank Cheque in Aust dollars, not money orders. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 01:18:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA16146; Thu, 29 May 1997 01:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: 29 May 97 04:11:40 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Cheap SMOT!! Message-ID: <970529081140_100433.1541_BHG109-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"K_pw53.0.Cy3.VhJZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry, > Yes the excess momentum (plus the mechanical losses) seems to > violate conservation of energy. If a "one-ramp rollaway" can be achieved with the exit slightly higher than the entry (apologies for the 'if', but ...) then there is no reason in principle why the ball can't be persuaded to find its way back to the start point ... is there? > I wonder if I can get rotary motion by using curved magnets and > and a non-conducting disk with some ferrite nodules? So do I. Chris (in mind-boggle mode) PS - are we having fun yet? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 01:41:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA22075; Thu, 29 May 1997 01:36:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:36:20 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:42:25 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SNOWBALL effect :) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"K2Iqp1.0.oO5.30KZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg, well, i can hold and make smot2 (need to glue it - i guess) at the exact position. 1. Just pulled up a "GEO" world map program and see you (AUS) just is getting dark....(perfect time for right brain'ers/ or is that left brain'ers -- oh well -we know who we are) - anyway i see dawn is appearing here on the east coast of US (time for sleep)... what a perfect MEDIUM you choose (web/net)... it's SNOWBALLING! 2. I jump to easier obtained magnets (US/Radio Shack #64-1879) flat like a postal stamp.... with this be a problem "bending #3 or #4 loops"? I've order (waiting (your sleep time)) your Mags!.. ------------------- also I've taken your 'V' entry shape and Stack the Mags so THEY are the smaller & smaller & smaller exit point. e.g.: :::: :::: ::: ::: :: :: : : : : O ball (but steel edges now parallel) this design (ZOOMS) the heck out of single 'V' shape designs that i have tried. If this is a problem for upcoming 2.3.4 I will wait. WORKS NEAT THOUGH!! :) much greater acceleration (Zoom) effect on a greater range of ball sizes. ---------------------------- 3. Have you already considered that if this was 'bent' into a circular shape like that of the 'nautilas sea-shell' that it is an amplifier(?) --I'm sure you have, as our vort brains are running wild! thanks a lot :) -- if this was put into (rotary/round) shape, we (you!) would have a 'Cyclotron' atom smasher with NO POWER (external needed) other then the magnetics.... (!) ========================ohhh! i just read that last paragraph and realize I need to shut it down... LOVE the smo_TOY though!!! Best to you & yours se ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2 freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX Ah sleep the Brother of death! Naw, it's the Mother of All Interupts!! IT'S "SNOWBALLING" & Downhill (x)! c-u-later From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 01:49:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA22903; Thu, 29 May 1997 01:45:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:45:42 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338D422F.5182 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:45:35 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: A mundane explanation of SMOTs References: <338D2F83.369B@microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zOr3Q1.0.kb5.r8KZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Greg Watson wrote: > > Nothing like a good theory fight!. > And the winner of ROUND 1 is ???????? > Where is Barry??????? > Here. Allow me to take a shot at a mundane explantion, based on comments of Martin and Hal: Perhaps the energy that drives the ball in the closed loop mode is simply the energy removed from the magnetic field via the presence of the ball, which kills the field energy in its vicinity (refer to http://home.worldonline.nl/~catware/ld2.html for a picture of this effect; refer to plot of B). Lets figure: the available energy from killing the 0.04 Tesla ambient field within a ~ 20 mm neighborhood of of the ball is (in MKS) dE = (B^2/(2 mu0)) * volume ~ ((0.04)^2/(2* 10^-6) * (20 x 10^-3)^3 ~ 16 * 8/2 * 0.0001 ~ 0.005 Joules The system has this much free energy to work with once the ball is in place. Now, let us count the losses: The dominant losses in a well built system will be friction and drag from the air: Drag: the power loss to drag is P_drag F.V, where F is the drag force, V the ball velocity. The drag force is F = C (rho_air V^2)/2 where C = drag coeff is about 20 for a sphere of that size moving through air at 0.01 m/sec (=> Reynolds number ~ 1), rho_air is the density of air ~ 1 kg/m^3, so F = 20 * 1 * 0.01^2 /2 = 0.001 Newtons and the power loss is P_drag = 10^-5 Watts If the velocity were 0.001 m/s, we woudl get instead C ~ 200 and P_drag = 10^-6 Watts Friction: The power loss do to friction is due to the rolling fricition of the ball on the track: P_friction = F.V, where F is friction forc F = C W, W = wieght of ball, C = coeff of rolling friction. We have W ~ 10 gram = 0.01 kg. Coeff. of rolling friction is extremely small; I don't have any precise numbers handy, but I would guess it is < 0.001, since coeff's of *sliding* friction can get down to 0.04 or so (teflon on steel). Thus P_friction < P_drag (probably << ) in any case, and we can neglect it. Based on the available energy dE ~ 0.005 J, and the loss rate of P = 10^-5 W -- 10^-6 W, we would expect the thing to run for 500 -- 5000 seconds ~ 10 -- 100 minutes. Greg said that in practice a version of his device ran for about 200 minutes before it stopped. Seems pretty reasonable to me. I imagine a test would be to position the ball *at rest* at the point of greatest field cancellation (i.e. where B is strongest in the ball-free set up) and then let it go. At this point it can't pick up extra energy from additional field cancellation. In any case, it should be clear from these comments and Martin's that there is ample energy available from minor alterations to the free space field (per above) and/or magnetization (per martin's comments) (Note a *1 part in 1000* reduction in magnetization would give a few (~10) milli-Joules of energy, also enough to perform as above) due to the perturbing presence of the ball in the system are enough to "power" the device to run in "closed loop" mode for a couple hours---exactly what is observed. Any reason to think this is not what is occuring? -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 01:49:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA22430; Thu, 29 May 1997 01:42:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:42:20 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:42:18 +0200 (METDST) Message-Id: <199705290842.KAA05360 imaginet.fr> X-Sender: lentin mail2.imaginet.fr X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jean-Pierre Lentin Subject: Bourbaki R.I.P. Resent-Message-ID: <"v_2-h2.0.OU5.h5KZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi all ! May I briefly interrupt these thrilling SMOT exchanges with a few words in defence of a meritorious but non-existent French scientist ? James Soltis wrote : > The POOR job done teaching math has its roots in 18th(?17) century >France.At this time someone saw this as a technique to emulate the >success of religion - namely Bourbaki(?) set up a fabric whereby math >was divorced from language( use symbols!only) Of course no single individual was responsible for devising math's symbolic language. Least of all Bourbaki - actually "Nicolas Bourbaki" was the collective pseudonym of a group of french mathematicians in the 1940's and 1950's, who worked on the logical foundations of maths. But you did hit on something, James. "Bourbaki" influenced France's national education, so that all schoolchildren of my generation, in the 60's, were taught set theory as a way to start in maths. This was eventually found very confusing and counter-productive, and it might explain that I, despite being a science writer, am hopelessly math-phobic... Now, back to ramp building ! Best regards to all. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jean-Pierre Lentin lentin imaginet.fr --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 02:10:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA19424; Thu, 29 May 1997 02:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338D4726.76AA math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:06:46 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs--Corrected References: <338D2F83.369B@microtronics.com.au> <338D422F.5182@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"J9viW2.0.Ql4.KTKZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: > > > Here. Allow me to take a shot at a mundane explantion, > based on comments of Martin and Hal: Like all good (and bad) theorists, my work contains some numerical errors. But like all good theorists, I recheck my work (after mailing it off). Lets fix a few errors: > > Drag: > > the power loss to drag is P_drag F.V, where F is the drag force, > V the ball velocity. The drag force is > > F = C (rho_air V^2)/2 > I meant F = C A (rho V^2)/2 where A is the cross sectional area of the sphere (C is dimensionless). In our case A ~ (10 mm)^2 = 10^4 m^2, so > where C = drag coeff is about 20 for a sphere of that size moving > through air at 0.01 m/sec (=> Reynolds number ~ 1), rho_air > is the density of air ~ 1 kg/m^3, so > F = 20 * 0.0001 * 1 * 0.01^2 /2 = 10^-7 Newtons > > and the power loss is > P_drag = 10^-9 Watts Based on the available energy dE ~ 0.005 J, and the loss rate of P ~ 10^-9 W, we would expect the thing to run for 5*10^6 seconds ~ 1 month. Now, though, becuase the drag is much smaller, rolling friction probably comes into play. As noted before, the power loss to rolling friction is about F.V = C M g V = C 0.01kg 10m/s^2 0.01m/s = C 0.001 Watts Now, the coeff of rolling friction is << 0.01. I don't have a figure, but if it were, say 0.001, the loss would be 10^-6 Watts, so the device could run for 5000 seconds, or about 1 hour, which is in the range of what was actually observed. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 02:46:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA20874; Thu, 29 May 1997 02:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:44:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970529001730_76016.2701_JHC93-1 CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:42:18 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Cheap SMOT!! Resent-Message-ID: <"BBFHL.0.465.f_KZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry - > It starts from a complete > stop and has momentum left after exiting the SMOT. Wow, congratulations Terry. One ramp OU. If it has momentum going out, you should then be able to make a small curved track to link units back to the start. In any case, I think you've just invented the SMOT-gun! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 03:25:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA23208; Thu, 29 May 1997 03:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 03:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970529032126.00ad8b28 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 03:21:45 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: Professional fun and a damper for O/U. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YAuXM2.0.Yg5.VZLZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Another good and error free measurement of the energy stored in a permanent magnet is the measure of energy that is necessary to magnetize the unmagnetized magnetic material. The BaFe2O3 or SrFe2O3 ceramic magnet material is manufactured in an UNmagnetized state. Than a large sheet of this material is put inside of a coil an a bank of capacitors is discharged through the coil and a diode. The coil creates a magnetic pulse that has a higher intensity than the magnetic material permeability, thus aligning the domains. Later the large sheet is cut to little pieces. Sooo... by knowing the voltage in the capacitors powering the magnetizing coil and the capacitance of the capacitors and the inductance and DC resistance of the coil, it is easy to calculate HOW MUCH ENERGY IS EXPENDED TO MAGNETIZE THE MAGNET. The energy stored in a capacitor is 0.5CE^2. (so all you need is a multimeter to get a very accurate estimate of the stored energy) So if you charge the supply capacitors with 10 joules, you CAN be sure that only maximum of 10 joules of energy went to creating (magnetizing) the permanent magnet. Of course if you do not have access to a virgin magnetic alloy, you can always heat an already magnetized piece above the curie temperature, and you will end up with non-magnetized piece. For your reference I am including a list of the magnetizing/demagnetizing force required for variety of the permanent magnet alloys. Material Grade Demagnet Curie BH-Strength NdFeB g39 - 21,300 150 40 SmCo g26 - 10,000 300 26 AlNiCo g05 - 640 540 5.5 Ceramic g08 - 3,200 300 3.5 (BaFe2O3 or SrFe2O3) Flexible g01 - 1,300 100 0.6 Grade = Material quality grade (alloy type ie. ALNICO 5) Demagnet = Demagnetizing/Magnetizing force in Oersteds Curie = Curie Temperature in Degrees Celsius BH-Strength = Maximum Energy Product in Mega Gauss Oersteds (MGO) The above clearly shows that AlNiCo is THE EASIEST to demagnetize. However AlNiCo has the highest Curie temperature of them all - 540degC. The Neodymium (NdFeB) magnets are the strongest (ie. they have the highest energy product). Flexible magnets are the weakest. At 04:43 PM 5/29/97 +1000, you wrote: >The energy stored in a magnetic field is E= 0.5*V*B**2/mu > >Where V = volume in meters cubed, B= Magnetic field intensity (in Tesla) >and mu is the magnetic permeability of the material containing the magnetic >field. > >Typically for the sized magnets used by Greg Watson and everyone else on >SMOT bandwagon we can take, B = 0.1 tesla, V, Volume = >0.1*0.1*0.1 = 0.001 meters cubed and mu = 4*pi*10**-7 for free space. > >In free space the Energy = 0.5*(0.1)**5/(4*3.14159*10**-7) = 4 Joules. > >Inside the magnet mu is about 10,000 times greater than free space so the >energy there is negligable. > >So my rough guess is that there is 4 Joules of energy in a typical >SMOT setup. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 03:35:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA31777; Thu, 29 May 1997 03:31:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 03:31:12 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970529033105.00adcfb4 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 03:31:22 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: How long to consume SMOT ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jFpwJ3.0.Nm7.lhLZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The energy calculation E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.12 = 0.006 Joules is not applicable to SMOT because the ball is NOT lifted to 12mm, 24mm, 36mm, 48mm, etc... BUT it always returns to the same level after it exits the ramp. Sooo... the only energy consumed is energy consumed by friction, air resistance, U chanell damping, noise, eddy currents, etc... 680 lifts to 12mm height would raise the ball to 8.16 meters (26.77 feet) and THIS IS NOT HAPPENING WITH SMOT !!! P.S. 5 grams for a 12mm steel ball seems a little small for me. At 04:43 PM 5/29/97 +1000, you wrote: >How long would it take to consume this energy? (4 joules stored in the magnetization of the magnets) > >Greg Watson says that 4 linked ramps can lift a 12 mm ball, 12 mm in height. >A 12 mm diameter ball weighs about 5 grams so the gravitational energy is: > >E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.12 = 0.006 Joules. > >Given that we have 4 Joules of energy, that means our typical 4 ramp >SMOT has a lifetime of about 680 lifts to 12 mm in height. After that we have >to worry about something else as a source of energy. > >That's quite a lot of runs, maybe that's all that's going on here. The effect >would be a slow decrease in magnetic field strength with use. Eventually the >effect would cease. > >Martin Sevior > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 03:37:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA23710; Thu, 29 May 1997 03:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 03:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970529033525.00adcfb4 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 03:35:42 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: Professional fun and a damper for O/U. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"nlRmA2.0.Oo5.TmLZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Errors: 12mm = 0.012m (not 0.12) 5 grams for a 12mm steel ball seems a little small for me. E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.12 = 0.006 Joules. m = mass in kilograms g = gravitational acceleration 9.8 meters/second^2 h = height in meters E = energy in joules From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 03:40:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA32591; Thu, 29 May 1997 03:39:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 03:39:36 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970529033942.00ae0504 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 03:39:52 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: How long to consume SMOT ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mcpmd.0.9z7.dpLZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The energy calculation E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.12 = 0.006 Joules is not applicable to SMOT because the ball is NOT lifted to 12mm, 24mm, 36mm, 48mm, etc... BUT it always returns to the same level after it exits the ramp. Sooo... the only energy consumed is energy consumed by friction, air resistance, U channel damping, noise, eddy currents, etc... 680 lifts to 12mm height would raise the ball to 8.16 meters (26.77 feet) and THIS IS NOT HAPPENING WITH SMOT !!! P.S. Errors: 12mm = 0.012m (not 0.12) 5 grams for a 12mm steel ball seems a little small for me. >>> E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.12 = 0.006 Joules. m = mass in kilograms g = gravitational acceleration 9.8 meters/second^2 h = height in meters E = energy in joules At 04:43 PM 5/29/97 +1000, you wrote: >How long would it take to consume this energy? (4 joules stored in the magnetization of the magnets) > >Greg Watson says that 4 linked ramps can lift a 12 mm ball, 12 mm in height. >A 12 mm diameter ball weighs about 5 grams so the gravitational energy is: > >E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.12 = 0.006 Joules. > >Given that we have 4 Joules of energy, that means our typical 4 ramp >SMOT has a lifetime of about 680 lifts to 12 mm in height. After that we have >to worry about something else as a source of energy. > >That's quite a lot of runs, maybe that's all that's going on here. The effect >would be a slow decrease in magnetic field strength with use. Eventually the >effect would cease. > >Martin Sevior > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 04:16:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA25912; Thu, 29 May 1997 04:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 04:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970529041300.00ae0920 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 04:13:21 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BxUhg2.0.nK6.lJMZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A much more accurate estimate of the travel ling losses of the ball in the SMOT, could be done empirically by weighing the ball and accelerating it to a known velocity (i.e. by a sloped release ramp) and than measuring how far the ball will travel on an absolutely level U channel, before it stops. If you want to be more accurate, make several steps in the U channel to simulate the ball being dropped onto a channel from above as it exits a SMOT ramp and starts up another ramp. The above experiment must be performed without magnets, and that means that the eddy-current-breaking will not be accounted for... This experiment also requires a very long U channel to measure the "roll-out" distance before the ball completely stops. If this is a problem, bend the two ends of a U channel up so the ball will go back and fro / up and down the bent ends like a pendulum. Count how many times the balls swings before coming to a full stop and you will now the friction, air resistance, noise losses pretty exactly. I would do it but I don't have enough U channel on hand. P.S. Could somebody please do this empirical measurement and report the results to the list. The quantity of mechanical losses will become a very important issue very very soon, in estimating the energy output of the SMOT and evaluating explanations presented by scientists like Barry. Knowing the exact loss figure will also help to eliminate any faulty explanations of the source of SMOT's energy. THIS IS IMPORTANT ! At 01:45 AM 5/29/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: >Here. Allow me to take a shot at a mundane explantion, >based on comments of Martin and Hal: > >Perhaps the energy that drives the ball in the closed >loop mode is simply the energy removed from the magnetic >field via the presence of the ball, which kills the field >energy in its vicinity (refer to >http://home.worldonline.nl/~catware/ld2.html >for a picture of this effect; refer to plot of B). > >Lets figure: the available energy from killing the >0.04 Tesla ambient field within a ~ 20 mm neighborhood of >of the ball is (in MKS) > >dE = (B^2/(2 mu0)) * volume > ~ ((0.04)^2/(2* 10^-6) * (20 x 10^-3)^3 > ~ 16 * 8/2 * 0.0001 > ~ 0.005 Joules > >The system has this much free energy to work with once >the ball is in place. Now, let us count the losses: >The dominant losses in a well built system will be friction >and drag from the air: > >Drag: > >the power loss to drag is P_drag F.V, where F is the drag force, >V the ball velocity. The drag force is > >F = C (rho_air V^2)/2 > >where C = drag coeff is about 20 for a sphere of that size moving >through air at 0.01 m/sec (=> Reynolds number ~ 1), rho_air >is the density of air ~ 1 kg/m^3, so > >F = 20 * 1 * 0.01^2 /2 = 0.001 Newtons > >and the power loss is > >P_drag = 10^-5 Watts > >If the velocity were 0.001 m/s, we woudl get instead >C ~ 200 and > >P_drag = 10^-6 Watts > >Friction: > >The power loss do to friction is due to the rolling fricition >of the ball on the track: P_friction = F.V, where F is >friction forc F = C W, W = wieght of ball, C = coeff of >rolling friction. We have W ~ 10 gram = 0.01 kg. Coeff. >of rolling friction is extremely small; I don't have any >precise numbers handy, but I would guess it is < 0.001, >since coeff's of *sliding* friction can get down to 0.04 or >so (teflon on steel). Thus > >P_friction < P_drag (probably << ) > >in any case, and we can neglect it. > >Based on the available energy dE ~ 0.005 J, and the loss >rate of P = 10^-5 W -- 10^-6 W, we would expect the thing to run >for 500 -- 5000 seconds ~ 10 -- 100 minutes. > >Greg said that in practice a version of his device ran for >about 200 minutes before it stopped. > >Seems pretty reasonable to me. I imagine a test would be >to position the ball *at rest* at the point of greatest >field cancellation (i.e. where B is strongest in the >ball-free set up) and then let it go. At this point it can't >pick up extra energy from additional field cancellation. > > >In any case, it should be clear from these comments and >Martin's that there is ample energy available from >minor alterations to the free space field (per >above) and/or magnetization (per martin's comments) >(Note a *1 part in 1000* reduction in magnetization would >give a few (~10) milli-Joules of energy, also enough to perform >as above) due to the perturbing presence of the ball in the system >are enough to "power" the device to run in "closed loop" mode for >a couple hours---exactly what is observed. Any reason to >think this is not what is occuring? > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 04:23:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA26601; Thu, 29 May 1997 04:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 04:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970529042035.00adebfc mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 04:20:42 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: SMOT err... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"6YLpZ2.0.WV6.bQMZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Err... It should have been: >The coil creates a magnetic pulse that has a higher intensity than the >magnetic material magnetizing/demagnetizing threshold (coercivity), thus aligning the domains. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 04:42:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA28085; Thu, 29 May 1997 04:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 04:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: < snip.net> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: BLP Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:11:06 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19970529113821181.AAA173 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"Bpu3z.0.ls6.ugMZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Znidarsic said: > 1. No shrunken atoms are observed in the universe. > If the hydoino is energinically favorable it should be everywhere. If Frank Z. is going to attack Mills' theory, it should be based on what Mills says, not something else. Mills claims that the "dark matter" sought by cosmologists is very plentiful hydrinos, which are ash of the stars.He claims that the principal source of energy in most stars is the collapse of hydrogen atoms by the BLP process, not the fusion cycles, which are secondary. Hydrinos can be catalysts for the production of more hydrinos, and successive degrees of shrinking of existing hydrinos. They are not plentiful on earth because of the very specific catalytic process needed to produce them. >The confining of a particle to a > dimension less than the radious of the ground state of the atom is an > endothermic process. As I understand it, there is no "confining". The catalysts remove the energy from the hydrogen atoms, which remain degenerate. The catalysts then release the removed energy and are able to act again. >The emission required to drop > to a sub degenerate orbit would produce a photon with a non-integer spin. > Again a real no no. The catalysis process is one of collision, not radiation. The energy is transfered to the catalyst atoms, which dissipate it. The hydrogen atom does not. I cannot defend Mills' approach, and I'm personally not yet comfortable with his orbitsphere model. And there are a lot of phenomena coming out of the woodwork which his theory does not appear to accomodate. But please, please, if you are going to critique a theory do so on what the author actually claims, not what one thinks he claims. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 05:38:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA08983; Thu, 29 May 1997 05:31:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 05:31:22 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970529083046_286626036 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re Bart Simon's Paper Resent-Message-ID: <"Y4l7W.0.EC2.PSNZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bart, In your reply to Mitchell Swartz, you said that reviewers had made you take out a lot of the post-1990 scientific stuff. The reviewers for the journal to which you submitted the paper? Did they want you to take it out for any reason other than limitations of space? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 05:50:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA05094; Thu, 29 May 1997 05:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 05:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:45:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705291245.HAA15335 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs--Corrected Resent-Message-ID: <"Lng4b.0.UF1.cgNZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:06 AM 5/29/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: >....so the device could run for >5000 seconds, or about 1 hour, which is in the range of >what was actually observed. Greg claims 4 DAYS, Barry....not 1 hour...and he further claims that the magnets are not detectably weakened after those 4 days. I'd say that you can forget mundane explanations for this. As others have concluded, either: 1. It works as he says and we have new physics to explore. 2. It does not work as he says. Greg, you're not pulling the old "GE diamond" trick on us here, are you? During the development of the industrial diamond, early results were understandably erratic. One particularly fine example of an early success was held up to the development team as a goal to learn to duplicate. They eventually succeeded. Long afterwards, that particular diamond was discovered to be a natural diamond that sombody had slipped in! In this case, by claiming to have closed the loop on yr device you have certainly succeeded in getting a lot of folks working on it around the world!... On the positive side, at this point we have way more to go on than we did, for example, when we started our investigation into the Potapov device. This time we have the inventor himself willingly leading us along the development path toward a claimed working device. It's irresistible...especially in view of its simplicity and ease of construction. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 06:34:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA19757; Thu, 29 May 1997 06:28:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:28:40 -0700 Message-ID: <338D76A9.25EE microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:59:29 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: correction on ball dia. MINE WORKS References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RaQvd3.0.cq4.7IOZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve Ekwall wrote: > > On Wed, 28 May 1997 HLafonte aol.com wrote: > > Greg, > > Steel ball dia. is 1 and 1/4 " not 1 and 1/2", I was very excited, sorry. > > Butch > > > Finally got enough little magnets - COUNT ME IN on WORKING SMOT1! - > I only have 3 Balls :) and some Buckshot and BB's :( laying around. > ALL THREE BALLS WORK 18mm/20mm(mouse type ball)/25mm. > or in decimal/US 3/4"/ 7/8" /15/16"(auto wheel bearing). > They ALL Accelerate and jump! out of the raised end,.. to which my wife > said the same thing as Gregs' wife " well, of course the do silly." > I don't think she grasps just how much FASTER the EXIT (zoom) is to the > INPUT (null) and its implications.... THIS IS GREAT GOING ON TO SMOT2! > -------------------------- > Oh, while waiting on exact parts (and I'm glad Greg is selling kits! WE > ALL HIM ANYWAY HERE -eh?), I wanted to let some of you know that the RADIO > SHACK part #64-1879 'Choke magnets' WORK OK! Rather than the 'V' entry > exit, I set the side metal bars parallel and STACKED as someone mentioned > earlier today. 1-2-3-4 DEEP (per side) North on one side SOUTH on the > other.. noted N/N or S/S not near as FORCEFUL(zoomable)... > Looking forward to CLOSE the LOOP... wish original plans were BIGGER > though. This will make one hell of a MUFFLED RAIL GUN!!! I hope all this > international "Brain-Power" can get us a Rotory-in-a-can so i can take it > up camping. > > se > > ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ > -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 Hi Steve, Sounds that you are talking about RMOD Mark II. NO ramps, no balls, no noise, only smooth powerfull rotation. Its only theory and sims at present, but its looking really good. Enough said for now. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 06:35:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA19879; Thu, 29 May 1997 06:28:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:28:54 -0700 Message-ID: <338D8099.6FF6 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:41:53 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT Criteria References: <338CF8A9.F1F59EB5 verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------23B74A2E26D1" Resent-Message-ID: <"6LS2y.0.Js4.KIOZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------23B74A2E26D1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > It will useful to include an over-unity criteria to describe exactly on > which condition the toy can be considered exhibiting over-unity effect > and not. I think on most cases the thickness of the ramp was not taken > account and when the ball go away from the exit on any conditions, it is > assumed as OU effect. > > Regards, > > Hamdi Ucar Hi Hamdi, Some time ago I defined 3 types of ramps : 1) Ball climbs to top of ramp and hangs. (Not Ou) 2) Ball climbs to top of ramp and drops to entry level, but doesn't roll away. (Not clearly Ou, but maybe if mag field is lower than that at entry) 3) Ball climbs to top of ramp and drops to entry level and rolls away. (High probability of Ou. Depends on zero entry energy of ball.) I have obtained all three classes of ramp. My theory on what divides the classes is based on where the equal entry mag field density is encountered on exit. The divisions based on ramp classes are as follows : 1) The entry field density is encountered just under the maagnet arrays and the ball hangs. 2) The entry field density is encountered below the entry level and the ball is held at the exit by the higher field density (than the start). 3) The entry field density is encountered between the hang point of item 1) and the exit level. This means that as the ball drops and reaches the exit / entry level, the encountered mag field density is below the entry mag field and the ball kinetic energy carries is away from the ramp exit. I have attached a Gif image showing this theory. Best Regards, Greg --------------23B74A2E26D1 Content-Type: image/gif; name="theory2.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="theory2.gif" R0lGODlh7gFhAfcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgICAgAQEBPz8/AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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+0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, Newman-l CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BULLETIN !!! BULLETIN!!! IT WORKS OTHER WAYS ALSO!!! References: <9705282137368173 emachine.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eSBYx1.0.Xt4.RIOZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Newman-l wrote: > > From: HLafonte aol.com > Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:27:28 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: BULLETIN !!! BULLETIN!!! IT WORKS OTHER WAYS ALSO!!! > > Greg, > You are not going to believe what I am about to tell you! I was thinking > about how long it would take me to round up all the parts for your fixture, > and then I saw on the list the mention of the kit. Well I got to thinking how > long It would take in the mail and I am the kind of person who likes to do > things now or sooner. I got to looking in my " junk box" from old experments, > and found two one inch long by 7/ 8 " diameter, neodymium-iron-boron magnets > that I had use to play with about a year ago to see if the magnetic switches > I had read about, worked. I had two soft steel bars 2 and one half inches > long by one half inch thick by one inch wide. I put the magnet on the back of > one of the one inch wide sides at the middle of the bars length. I did the > same with the other bar. Then I placed the two on my table in a v shape as > you do. Then I got a one and one half inch steel ball I had given to my > daughter I found in a machine shop years ago, and put it in the center groove > of a plastic foot ruler my daughter had. I put the ruller between the two > bars and elevated the end one eight inch above the table top. I checked the > ramp without the magnets to make sure the ball rolled down to prove it was a > slope. It rolled down very fast. I then put the magnets back with nothing > holding them in place, just their weight holding them down. I rolled the > magnet up the ramp to about one half inch from the v and when I felt the > slighest pull from the bars I let it go. The first time it stoped at the end > of the magnets and I noticed that the end of the ruler was past the magnets. > I moved it to just past the end of the magnets and the second time it rolled > up the ramp from a dead stop to the end of the ruller and fell off !!! I want > to put a video on the net and pictures of it. How do I go about it ? I have > never done any of that before. It works every time and I want to show every > one another way of doing what you have discovered. I am so excited I can > hardly type, this is more fun than I've had in years! How do I get It on the > net in video? > Thanks, Butch LaFonte Hi Butch, Your setup sounds a lot like my very first ramp. It had three magnets on the back side of a short piece (50mm) of ferrite I had lying around (actually it was from old AM radio tuner coil). My arrays were in a wide "V" and I used a old dead ink pen tube for the ball to roll in. First time it ran up to the top, but hung. I then adjusted the tube down and it worked every time after that. Different dog, same leg action! Looking forward to your linking report. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 06:38:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA11136; Thu, 29 May 1997 06:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <338D6875.4AEEBB03 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:28:53 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Balance experiment for SMOT X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3qFJA1.0.qj2.fNOZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, I propose a simple experiment to check whether the excess energy is obtaining by abnormal gravitational interactions: Place the SMOT on a balance. Observe the neddle while the ball is climbing the the ramp. Only this part can be examined unfortunatly, because the falling and landing the ball to the next ramp will disturb the measurement. Altrough this hot an ultimate check for the abnormal gravitational interaction, but it may explain something if positive results are obtained. Unfortunatly the proper SMOT builinding materials are not yet reached to me, and i could perform the experiment by myself. I strongly recomended balance experiment to Greg who has the RMOD. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 06:39:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA22156; Thu, 29 May 1997 06:36:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:36:38 -0700 Message-ID: <338D85FC.5C3 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:04:52 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cheap SMOT!! References: <970529081140_100433.1541_BHG109-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4j1QQ3.0.zP5.ZPOZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > > Terry, > > > Yes the excess momentum (plus the mechanical losses) seems to > > violate conservation of energy. > > If a "one-ramp rollaway" can be achieved with the exit slightly higher > than the entry (apologies for the 'if', but ...) then there is no > reason in principle why the ball can't be persuaded to find its way back > to the start point ... is there? In Phase 3, we WILL achieve a lift at the top of the 4th linked ramp of over twice the original. Any ideas of what to do then with a bit of plastic tubing? > > I wonder if I can get rotary motion by using curved magnets and > > and a non-conducting disk with some ferrite nodules? > > So do I. Thats RMOD Mark II. > Chris > (in mind-boggle mode) > PS - are we having fun yet? Hi Chris, Got a link to work yet? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 06:55:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA26282; Thu, 29 May 1997 06:50:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:50:09 -0700 Message-ID: <338D8916.5201 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:18:06 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs References: <338D2F83.369B@microtronics.com.au> <338D422F.5182@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YrCgJ.0.UQ6.DcOZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Barry Merriman wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > > Nothing like a good theory fight!. > > And the winner of ROUND 1 is ???????? > > Where is Barry??????? > > > > Here. Allow me to take a shot at a mundane explantion, > based on comments of Martin and Hal: > > Perhaps the energy that drives the ball in the closed > loop mode is simply the energy removed from the magnetic > field via the presence of the ball, which kills the field > energy in its vicinity (refer to > http://home.worldonline.nl/~catware/ld2.html > for a picture of this effect; refer to plot of B). > > Lets figure: the available energy from killing the > 0.04 Tesla ambient field within a ~ 20 mm neighborhood of > of the ball is (in MKS) > > dE = (B^2/(2 mu0)) * volume > ~ ((0.04)^2/(2* 10^-6) * (20 x 10^-3)^3 > ~ 16 * 8/2 * 0.0001 > ~ 0.005 Joules > > The system has this much free energy to work with once > the ball is in place. Now, let us count the losses: > The dominant losses in a well built system will be friction > and drag from the air: > > Drag: > > the power loss to drag is P_drag F.V, where F is the drag force, > V the ball velocity. The drag force is > > F = C (rho_air V^2)/2 > > where C = drag coeff is about 20 for a sphere of that size moving > through air at 0.01 m/sec (=> Reynolds number ~ 1), rho_air > is the density of air ~ 1 kg/m^3, so > > F = 20 * 1 * 0.01^2 /2 = 0.001 Newtons > > and the power loss is > > P_drag = 10^-5 Watts > > If the velocity were 0.001 m/s, we woudl get instead > C ~ 200 and > > P_drag = 10^-6 Watts > > Friction: > > The power loss do to friction is due to the rolling fricition > of the ball on the track: P_friction = F.V, where F is > friction forc F = C W, W = wieght of ball, C = coeff of > rolling friction. We have W ~ 10 gram = 0.01 kg. Coeff. > of rolling friction is extremely small; I don't have any > precise numbers handy, but I would guess it is < 0.001, > since coeff's of *sliding* friction can get down to 0.04 or > so (teflon on steel). Thus > > P_friction < P_drag (probably << ) > > in any case, and we can neglect it. > > Based on the available energy dE ~ 0.005 J, and the loss > rate of P = 10^-5 W -- 10^-6 W, we would expect the thing to run > for 500 -- 5000 seconds ~ 10 -- 100 minutes. > > Greg said that in practice a version of his device ran for > about 200 minutes before it stopped. I also repeatily said that I could restart it!. It stopped because of movement of the magnets. If you BUILD one of the SMOT ramps, you will see how sensitive they are to adjustment, but once you get it right they are VERY soild. The first version of the RMOD device ran for just short of 4 days until I STOPPED it. The magnets showed NO signs of weaking. > Seems pretty reasonable to me. I imagine a test would be > to position the ball *at rest* at the point of greatest > field cancellation (i.e. where B is strongest in the > ball-free set up) and then let it go. At this point it can't > pick up extra energy from additional field cancellation. > > In any case, it should be clear from these comments and > Martin's that there is ample energy available from > minor alterations to the free space field (per > above) and/or magnetization (per martin's comments) > (Note a *1 part in 1000* reduction in magnetization would > give a few (~10) milli-Joules of energy, also enough to perform > as above) due to the perturbing presence of the ball in the system > are enough to "power" the device to run in "closed loop" mode for > a couple hours---exactly what is observed. Any reason to > think this is not what is occuring? Ask any of the older builders if their magnets are loosing power. I KNOW the answer. My discussions with Hal and his ZPE powered electrons seems to fit what the BUILDERS are seeing. > -- > Barry Merriman Hi Barry, Come on man, join the world, BUILD a ramp. See it work with nothing other than your eyes, Feel it work with your fingers. Hear it work (create noise energy) with your ears. Drop a ball every 0.5 sec and watch all that moving mass. Barry , this is real. BUILD a ramp and help us work out what is happening. My Very Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 07:16:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA16568; Thu, 29 May 1997 07:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338D8EAC.C8B microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:41:56 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs--Corrected References: <199705291245.HAA15335 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bUvVj3.0.l24.yyOZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 02:06 AM 5/29/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: > > >....so the device could run for > >5000 seconds, or about 1 hour, which is in the range of > >what was actually observed. > > Greg claims 4 DAYS, Barry....not 1 hour...and he further claims that the > magnets are not detectably weakened after those 4 days. I'd say that you > can forget mundane explanations for this. Others have been Smotting for long enough to advise of any reduction in their mag strength. Ask them. > As others have concluded, either: > > 1. It works as he says and we have new physics to explore. > 2. It does not work as he says. It does work, but the physics has been here for ages. Read the list of OU patents I posted earlier. There have been many others. Maybe my timing and approach are the only real difference. Like I said before Scott, "I don't think I am the first". I just talk better. > Greg, you're not pulling the old "GE diamond" trick on us here, are you? > During the development of the industrial diamond, early results were > understandably erratic. One particularly fine example of an early success > was held up to the development team as a goal to learn to duplicate. They > eventually succeeded. Nothing works like faith. Believe hard enough that it can be done and IT WILL BE! That why there are 4 Phases and just enough info dribbled out to keep things rolling along. But this is not a diamond trick, its real. Link 4 SMOT ramps Scott. Feed in balls for a few days and measure the magnets. They will not weaken. > Long afterwards, that particular diamond was > discovered to be a natural diamond that sombody had slipped in! In this > case, by claiming to have closed the loop on yr device you have certainly > succeeded in getting a lot of folks working on it around the world!... > > On the positive side, at this point we have way more to go on than we did, > for example, when we started our investigation into the Potapov device. > This time we have the inventor himself willingly leading us along the > development path toward a claimed working device. It's > irresistible...especially in view of its simplicity and ease of construction. And so many others have claimed duplication. Not so risky now? > Scott Little Hi Scott, I do believe in enpowering people, but I have never claimed anything I can't prove. Life is too long for that and the world is getting smaller all the time. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 07:19:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA30847; Thu, 29 May 1997 07:17:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:17:26 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970529101402.00de5e2c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:14:06 +0000 To: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Sociology of CF Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"tsvFJ3.0.vX7.r_OZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:30 PM 5/27/97 +0000, Bart wrote: >Dear Vortexans, .... >I'm not so sure I buy Mitchell's word count analysis and what it >demonstrates - it all depends on what I was trying to argue. Word count is a word count and cannot depend upon your argument, or its validity. Here is that data following. When will someone do a real thesis on this field with an actual appraisal of the literature? Aren't there ANY EE, ME, physicists, chemists, or electrochemists out there? Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) ========= data to follow =============================================== Number of times word appears in Bart Simon's "Undead Science: Making Sense of Cold Fusion After the (Arti)fact" ----------------------------------------------- loading 1 epri 0 electrode 1 pathological science 10 miles 0 us navy 0 ufo 1 ================================================ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 07:19:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA30939; Thu, 29 May 1997 07:17:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:17:56 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970529101431.006d1338 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:14:35 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: AntiG Correlation (Re: SMOT or RMOT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"kcc9N1.0.IZ7.J0PZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:07 PM 5/28/97 -1000, Rick wrote: >>In a message dated 5/25/97 10:27:34 PM, Hal wrote: >> >><< The experiment (described on Vortex) where a thin vertical sheet of >>bismuth between two magnets looses weight when it is on the neutral line >>between two magnets.>> >> >>I missed this. Can you fwd a copy? Thanks. >> >>Hal Puthoff > >I think that was Fred Epps' experiment. I tried it and saw nothing. Fred >said the effect was quite large. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > Rick, and Hal: Bismuth can be suspended by magnetophoretic forces, akin to dielectrophoretic forces as discussed in Melcher (Continuum Electrodynamics) and elsewhere. The Maxwell Stress Tensor can be used as an alternate derivation of the force. The field intensities required are in the range of 10-20 Tesla. What was used in the expts you describe? IMHO, such bismuth levitation is stable, as opposed to ferromagnetic levitations because the vector is opposite the applied magnetic field intensity leading to a stable point for the elevated sample. Do you agree? Hope that helps. Good luck on these studies, too. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 07:21:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA31033; Thu, 29 May 1997 07:18:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:18:23 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970529100852.00de000c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:15:01 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Re Bart Simon's Paper Cc: Tstolper aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"OEaD3.0.pa7.k0PZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tom asks another good question. >Bart, > >In your reply to Mitchell Swartz, you said that reviewers had made you take >out a lot of the post-1990 scientific stuff. The reviewers for the journal >to which you submitted the paper? Did they want you to take it out for any >reason other than limitations of space? > >Tom Stolper > > Why would anyone, especially a purported academic reviewer, in science make someone remove one side of a story about which the very document in question concerned? [Corrolary for later: And why would a student ever decide to remain in the Department of such an Institution? ] Hypothesis 1 : Censorship Hypothesis 2 : Attempting to "prove" a point about an a priori argument (see my Table of words present in Bart's paper). In this case, Bart's reviewers -- and Bart shouldnt probably go along with this because he works with, or did work with, Dr. Szpak of the US Navy on this and should know better -- want a document devoid science but concentrating on "pathological science" which they stupidly assign to cold fusion thinking that this is "pin the tail on the donkey". It is not. It is a replay of the periodic coverups against scientific discovery (e.g. Galileo). The reviewers preconceived pseudo sociology ought to be the topic of Bart's thesis. ;-)X Bart, why don't you cite Dr. Szpaks work. It is methodical, impressive, and consistent with other US Navy, CEREM, etc. findings? Were those the references your reviewers deleted? I did not realize that you might have put such refs in only to have them removed. How many did you have? Which ones? Can you fax me the list? Can you share with us the original paper? It would be MUCH better since you might get quite a bit of feedback here about the science. {then you could do an additional sociologic paper on that too, since using the Internet to improve thesis quality (?) might be new ;-)X } There may be other hypotheses, too. Just cant think of any because removing documentation is an anathema to good scholarship. Hypothesis 3: The school is run by politically-correct but scholarship-challenged individuals who maintain tight control upon both the library and thesis topics, and diligently prune theses of any possible repugnant, politically-incorrect or other "dangerous" references. BTW three cheers for both Bart and Barry digging in and working in this field and bringing their needed skepticism. I may disagree with a few of the findings, maybe, but greatly respect their diligence. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 07:28:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA18315; Thu, 29 May 1997 07:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: 29 May 97 10:22:27 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Cheap SMOT!! Message-ID: <970529142226_76016.2701_JHC101-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"kkgJs1.0.5U4.t6PZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: >> The fact that Terry is now making it clear that he gets (a) extra height and (b) extra momentum as well as a lower magnetic potential - not to mention the overcoming of friction and all the rest of it - makes me think that ... er ... he should ... er ... double check everything ...<< You begin to sound like James Diss. My wife thinks I'm crazy. I sat for hours picking up the damn steel ball and placing it on the rail and watching it shoot across the table. She said "Didn't you ever play with magnets as a kid?" "To the moon, Alice!" WHAP! I tried everything, aligned with magnetic north; perpendicular to north; opposition; I even took it in the damned bathroom. I think Schnurer is right, it has something to do with the curl of the field at the middle of a magnet verses at the end of the magnet. You must exit the field vertically before the end of the magnet array. And it doesn't matter whether the ramp is elevated or level. This is an anomaly either way. I elevated the end of the ramp just to see how much gravity I could overcome. It's real. Greg Watson said: >>It took me several weeks to accept it. I still have problems with it. An I am only a EE. << I am only an EE too, Greg. I still have problems accepting it. I have blisters on my fingers from handling that damned steel ball. Then Chris said: >>If a "one-ramp rollaway" can be achieved with the exit slightly higher than the entry (apologies for the 'if', but ...) then there is no reason in principle why the ball can't be persuaded to find its way back to the start point ... is there?<< I see no reason why the loop can't be closed. My little experiment was simply proof of concept. I have loads of losses in my system. If you try it, don't hassle with tapering the angle of the magnet array vs. the ramp. Run your magnets parallel to the ramp and put more magnets on the exit and taper down to one magnet at the entrance. The movement is somewhat jerky; but, it's easier to implement. Rick Monteverde said: >>Wow, congratulations Terry. One ramp OU.<< Well, I'm not convinced that I'm not depleting the magnets of . . . something. >>In any case, I think you've just invented the SMOT-gun!<< LOL! Leave it to Rick. Yep, Chris, we're having fun. I built mine in 10 minutes literally. My out of pocket was $3.59 for magnets from Radio Shack. I improvised the rest. Try it! Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 07:40:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA00560; Thu, 29 May 1997 07:33:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:33:48 -0700 Date: 29 May 97 10:32:34 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Suddenly things get very interesting! Message-ID: <970529143234_76016.2701_JHC68-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"yMptc2.0.g8.CFPZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Martin Sevoir said: >>Then Terry Blantan and maybe Hamdi Ucar claim to have seen OU effects in a single ramp.<< I make no claims. I am simply reporting what I did and saw. Damned thing could be magic, FAIK. >>Then Eugene Mallove tells us about the next CETI step. Aparently the long awaited water heater is here!<< I reported on the water heater months ago and caught hell because it was from a Christian Ismert (CETI) conference on a UFO Forum on CompuServe. Martin, build a ramp yet? It's really easy if you use the tapered magnet approach. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 07:40:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA01252; Thu, 29 May 1997 07:38:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:38:15 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:37:27 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs In-Reply-To: <338D422F.5182 math.ucla.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"DGh4y2.0.PJ.LJPZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 29 May 1997, Barry Merriman wrote: > Here. Allow me to take a shot at a mundane explantion, > based on comments of Martin and Hal: > > Perhaps the energy that drives the ball in the closed > loop mode is simply the energy removed from the magnetic > field via the presence of the ball, which kills the field > energy in its vicinity (refer to > http://home.worldonline.nl/~catware/ld2.html > for a picture of this effect; refer to plot of B). So there would be a positive initial force that launches the ball forward regardless of where on the "loop" it is placed, but zero net force directed around the loop (and so no o/u.) And minimal friction would allow the ball to roll for a long period. If this is true, then the ball should start out fast, then move slower and slower around the loop, finally getting "stuck" at some energy minimium. Easy to test. Measure the velocity at one point, see if it falls and falls as the ball traverses the loop. Or, intentionally add more and more friction until the "time constant" is very short. If o/u, the ball would simply roll more slowly (lower terminal veloicty where o/u forces balance friction.) If non-o/u, the ball would slow and stop much more quickly than if the excess friction was not added. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 07:55:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA04510; Thu, 29 May 1997 07:50:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:50:20 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:49:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970529104913_-1900696473 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT v1.02 - Blueprints and Linking method diagram Resent-Message-ID: <"qMH6j1.0.N61.hUPZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Today, I have put in my web server the detailled schemes of my SMOT V1.02 units which works linked. ( schemes scale = 1 ) Also I have put the WORKING SETUP SCHEME of my linked configuration with all measurements. You will find all these informations at : http://members.aol.com/overunity3/html/s102jlnp.htm I think that with these detailled schemes and linking configuration, you will be able to succeed in the SMOTs testing. Overunity yours, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 07:56:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA04326; Thu, 29 May 1997 07:50:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:50:02 -0700 Date: 29 May 97 10:48:57 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs Message-ID: <970529144857_100433.1541_BHG92-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"DBLjb2.0.W31.NUPZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry, > Perhaps the energy that drives the ball in the closed loop mode is > simply the energy removed from the magnetic field via the presence > of the ball, which kills the field energy in its vicinity I liked your post - science without numbers isn't science, so I liked your numbers. However, you are postulating an effect which I am not familiar with. You say that a macroscopic, practical device can de- magnetise a permanent magnet, producing mechanical work in the process. Can you give us any references for such a device? Secondly, and I know I'm on very shaky ground here, what about this field energy question? Here's a crude thought experiment (made with crude thoughts): Imagine very many small, powerful permanent magnets arranged in a close matrix in space. Each is constrained so that their axes are randomly oriented. The resultant field, I think, will be zero. Now gradually remove the restraints on their orientations (but not their locations). They should eventually move to be in the same orientation? To do this, they will have done work on their restraints. The matrix will now have a clear external field. As I recall it, this is very like the effect when a material which is reversibly demagnetised as it passes back and forth through its Curie point: the transition to 'randomicity' is accompanied by a release of heat, while the transition to 'order' is endothermic. This would indicate to my simple mind that a permanent magnet has less overall energy than a similar randomised sample of the same material. In other words, I'm considering the *magnet* and not its associated field. And this has apparent paradox (which has little to do with the SMOT, but a great deal to do with your explanation of it), has puzzled me for a long time. To be honest, numbers or no, I have to agree with Scott's later post: Either the thing doesn't work, or we have some much more serious explaining to do than your posting will achieve. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 08:50:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA14955; Thu, 29 May 1997 08:41:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:41:31 -0700 Message-Id: <338DA2E7.E2D9EF14 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:38:15 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: [Fwd: SMOT Criteria] X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9A9D314E57C52B850A83C164" Resent-Message-ID: <"1y-Oy1.0.Yf3.fEQZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9A9D314E57C52B850A83C164 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------9A9D314E57C52B850A83C164 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <338D998D.4275A421 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:58:21 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Subject: Re: SMOT Criteria X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <338CF8A9.F1F59EB5 verisoft.com.tr> <338D8099.6FF6@microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0EF690357284F84AD7135DD5" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0EF690357284F84AD7135DD5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Greg, Thank you for your remainder. This is the third criteria I am talking. > 3) Ball climbs to top of ramp and drops to entry level and rolls > away.(High probability of Ou. Depends on zero entry energy of ball.) This is ok. I redrew the diagram to point out simply that the starting point is not level of the "table". This seems obviously, but forgotten when the exiting result are taken. 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jKuyrOunyoJ7vo0HuedrufDLvtCaPrprq7TrrUp0tETolG/bjKIbnbL7vfILvuq7rUwbQ5X7 vwh8twoswAFFvHwmwUD5wAqVevQym56bs3sZugXsjjhCiI83uQtcjoYqmrIbd8djUZWLbIpC mW5rnL83NhUsibbHh6SpFawQshjJvXCDXN9LERKrSAE0BKy4KoKqwy2rA625VkWpsN74xFEs xVNMxVVsxVeMxVmsxVvMxV3sxV8MxmEsxmNMxmVsxmeMxmmsxmvMxm3sxgJbAAAAOw== --------------0EF690357284F84AD7135DD5-- --------------9A9D314E57C52B850A83C164-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 08:53:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA27688; Thu, 29 May 1997 08:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: 29 May 97 11:42:38 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: A mundane explanation of SMOTs Message-ID: <970529154237_100433.1541_BHG42-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Hf1sV1.0.Um6.4IQZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > As I recall it, this is very like the effect when a material which > is reversibly demagnetised as it passes back and forth through its > Curie point: the transition to 'randomicity' is accompanied by a > release of heat, while the transition to 'order' is endothermic. Sorry, other way around! Chris (smot-fever setting in) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 09:21:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA23239; Thu, 29 May 1997 09:18:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:18:50 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970529121813_-229446485 emout16.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT 1.02 - Additional info. Resent-Message-ID: <"okRR42.0.1h5.fnQZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi SMOT'ters, Here some additional informations about my SMOT v1.02 : Steel ball : 12 mm diam. weight = 70 gr Magnets used : Ferrite Barium 40 x 25 x 10 mm ( anisotrop ) Energy produced ( BxH ) max : 29.5 kJ/m^3 - 3.7 MGOe Remanence ( Br) : 400 mT - 4000 G Coercitivity ( T=20oC ) : bHc : 160 kA/m - 2000 Oe jHc : 165 kA/m - 2050 Oe Permeability : 1.1 mT/(kA/m) Temp. coef. -0.20% Max operating temp. : 200 oC Density : 4.9 g/cm^3 Curie point : 450 oC You can find this Magnets in FRANCE at : Aimants Goudsmit France Z.I. rue du vert Bois 59535 Neuville en Ferrain Cedex Tel : (33) 03 20 03 60 66 Fax: (33) 03 20 03 59 96 Sincerely, From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 09:31:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA26482; Thu, 29 May 1997 09:26:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:26:12 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:26:02 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705291626.LAA07597 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: maybe worthwhile Resent-Message-ID: <"_Wy5-2.0.dT6.ZuQZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I don't usually take up bandwidth on Vortex with jokes but once in a while one comes along that seems worthwhile: In a murder trial, the defense attorney was cross-examining a pathologist. Here's what happened: ATTORNEY: Before you signed the death certificate, had you taken the pulse? CORONER: No. ATTORNEY: Did you listen to the heart? CORONER: No. ATTORNEY: Did you check for breathing? CORONER: No. ATTORNEY: So, when you signed the death certificate you weren't sure the man was dead, were you? CORONER: Well, let me put it this way. The man's brain was sitting in a jar on my desk. But I guess it's possible he could be out there practicing law somewhere. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 09:58:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA30945; Thu, 29 May 1997 09:49:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:49:10 -0700 Message-Id: <199705291649.JAA05172 popmail.UCSD.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Bart Simon" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:50:55 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re Bart Simon's Paper Reply-to: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu CC: Tstolper aol.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <970529083046_286626036 emout17.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Resent-Message-ID: <"PJHkp3.0.PZ7.5ERZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings SMOTsters and those who do not SMOT, Tom Stolper wrote: > In your reply to Mitchell Swartz, you said that reviewers had made you take > out a lot of the post-1990 scientific stuff. The reviewers for the journal > to which you submitted the paper? Did they want you to take it out for any > reason other than limitations of space? Despite Mitchell's active imagination on this, there is no evil plot afoot here. The paper was way too long and stuff had to be cut for lack of space. The decision of where to cut was a reasonably collective one, because I have another paper in the works (to be presented first at the annual meeting of the society for social studies of science in October). To be fair, one reviewer wanted me to dump the early pre-1990 history because it had already been said before, but I still maintain that I am saying it differently. No matter what though, you'll have to understand and accept that I am not going to review the technical literature on CF, how could I? -- what's wrong with Storm's piece anyway? Rather, I would cite the presence of review's like Storms as being indicative of a developing coherence in approaches to studying CF and an attempt to conceptually organize the field (I view "Fusion Facts", "CF Times" and "Infinite Energy" as more informal ways of doing something similar). Gosh, Mitchell, I'm trying to explain to you that my paper is arguing against the interpretation of CF as pathological science. Don't count the words, read the paper! There has got to be more than one way to skin a fish. The word count for pathological science is high, I guess, because I have to establish what non-CF researchers generally say so I can mount my counter-argument - lists of technical references does not make for good sociology. Do the rest of you feel like CF research comes off looking bad in my paper? If so, I will want to correct that since my aim is to demonstrate (in sociological terms) precisely the opposite. Er, this is really not a conspiracy of skepticism, its just the process of a lowly sociologist in the midst of thinking and writing. cheers, Bart ============================================ Bart Simon Dept. of Sociology/Science Studies-0533 University of California at San Diego (UCSD) 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA, 92093-0533 phone: 619-534-0491/fax: 619-534-3388 =========================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 10:18:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA04600; Thu, 29 May 1997 10:15:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:15:16 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC6C19.337DDCC0 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: hot SMOT Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:15:14 -0700 Encoding: 7 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"cv3Yq.0.k71.ZcRZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I heated a ball bearing to red-hot with a propane torch, then cooled it slowly. Had to spend some time repolishing it afterwards. This made a small but noticeable improvement in performance. Dan Quickert dequickert ucdavis.edu 916-756-0575 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 10:33:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA16521; Thu, 29 May 1997 10:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <338DBBC9.645B444 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:24:25 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: hot SMOT X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <01BC6C19.337DDCC0 ristra.ucdavis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dt1qe2.0.224.foRZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: > > I heated a ball bearing to red-hot with a propane torch, then cooled > it > slowly. Had to spend some time repolishing it afterwards. This made a > small > but noticeable improvement in performance. > This is consistent with my observation by the posting "Ball suffering of magnetism!" at Thu, 29 May 1997 01:53:05 +0400 Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 12:13:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA02919; Thu, 29 May 1997 11:55:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:55:31 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338DD11A.20B1 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:55:22 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs--Corrected References: <199705291245.HAA15335 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IYixv2.0.Tj.Y4TZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 02:06 AM 5/29/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: > > >....so the device could run for > >5000 seconds, or about 1 hour, which is in the range of > >what was actually observed. > > Greg claims 4 DAYS, Barry....not 1 hour...and he further > claims that the magnets are not detectably weakened after > those 4 days. I'd say that you > can forget mundane explanations for this. > Not so---Greg said the present toy ran for ~ 3 Hours. Also, note I said it could run as above using only the energy of the ball cancelling out the field in free space---that is not demagnetization. This energy is guaranteed to be available---the mechanism is clear. Finally, note I said a similar amount of energy would be available if---somehow---the magnets were demagnetized by 1/10 of 1 percent. How noticable would that be? -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 12:52:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA19598; Thu, 29 May 1997 12:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:45:14 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Quest for FIRE Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"LwwFc2.0.5o4.cnTZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg: OK: I'm exicited (sorry to take up bandwith with this), but have you seen the movie "Quest for FIRE"? (if not), its a story about a prehistoric tribe that could "keep fire going" by catching it after a lightning storm.. one member of the tribe was held responsible to always keep a glowing ember incased in a 'smot-pot' or ember lamp... so they could BLOW on it - to bring it gently back to LIFE!.. anyway IT (the ember) dies out in the movie and they have to 'Quest for fire'..[else NO HEAT... Light at Night to scare off the animals...Cooking... and all the things that make it so, so, FIRE!!].. Two (tribe members) go off direction unknown to find a forrest I guess that might be alite by a lightning strike.. (Scanning the horizon for a forrest Fire -and SEEING NONE- that was portraid as NO EASY TASK), where to go?!!, where to go?!! ------------- Making a Great movie senario short, They find/ run upon a girl (of course) that is hanging from a tree in the Camp of Huge Red Headed & Bearded 'Cannibals'... they HAVE FIRE .. They are using it to heat/EAT a fellow hanging tribesman who is missing a few limbs already! (yucky stuff - but cool movie)... ANYWAY they rescue HER and Loose Out in a battle to overtake and GET the FIRE.. they soon discover that SHE (or her Tribe) has known about the ability to 1)spit on your hands [lubricate].. 2)take a stick and 'twrill-it' back-and forth [friction].. 3)on a flammable base of wood [till it started to smoke!] AHHH (glowing EMBERS) THEY COULD HANDLE IT FROM THERE!!! The reason I mention the movie, is that first discovery that here is a 'PERSON' not a Heavenly Sent 'Gift' that could produce FIRE*...THE LOOK ON THE QUESTOR's FACE was "Dumbfounded", "Amazement", "Pondered", UNBELIEVING , IMPOSSIBLE.... "CAN'T BE /can it?" HOW CAN THIS BE (jaw dropped open -Glazed eyes stuck on the smoke smoldering up from the board) He's also scratching his head in an ape-like querio you might associate with the beginnings of the 2001 (movie) opening theme. The 'Quest for FIRE' your smot1 - has me scratching my head AND my jaw is Dropped and I don't know what to do... I want to RUN and TELL the WORLD (You've Done THAT!) I want to JUMP for JOY (I'd Bet you've Don't That TOO!) ----------------------------- THANK YOU for Being the ONE (that knew how to Create the FIRE (o/u)).. THANK YOU for SHARING IT.. (it will return to you many TIMES FOLD!).. ----------------------------- I see Rotory in only phase 1, and have to ask to a previous post where you said "silent running, no balls, constant rpm .." DON'T TELL ME YOU HAVE THAT ONE SITTING THERE 'WORKING!'??? (I want to hear YES, But I don't know if I can handle it..) YOU HAVE the ability to MAKE FIRE??!!! ------------------------------ Is this a GREAT TIME TO BE ALIVE OR WHAT!! I'm OFF to rotor my own ---- "I SEE THE SMOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" se (oh, sorry about being a little too excited... no phd here or math major... just your average common 'joe'..... the 'joe's of the world are going to react the same way I'd bet!!).. smot1=SMOKE ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2 freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX finally, you've got my wife saying "shut your mouth (dropped jaw in the last 48 hours) what are you thinking about anyway??" thanks a lot Greg :) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 13:28:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA19213 for billb@eskimo.com; Thu, 29 May 1997 13:27:59 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:27:59 -0700 X-Envelope-From: havveye execpc.com Thu May 29 13:27:57 1997 Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (root mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.16.5]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA19163; Thu, 29 May 1997 13:27:54 -0700 Received: from mail.execpc.com (mail [169.207.16.2]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA28462; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:27:52 -0500 Received: from sy-snootles.mdm.mke.execpc.com (sy-snootles.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.72.115]) by mail.execpc.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA09357; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:27:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: by sy-snootles.mdm.mke.execpc.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC6C44.DAD688C0 sy-snootles.mdm.mke.execpc.com>; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:27:44 -0500 Message-ID: <01BC6C44.DAD688C0 sy-snootles.mdm.mke.execpc.com> From: Hawkeye To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Cc: "freenrg-l eskimo.com" Subject: RE: SMOT QField Sims Old-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:57:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: one question about the SMOT. How many ways can you get power off of it? I can only think of two ways. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 13:30:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA25759; Thu, 29 May 1997 13:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <338DE458.93E6C61D verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:17:28 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Art Bell WANTS smot-x X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2deqK2.0.OI6.cLUZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, I think it is risky to go public before the phase-4 is done. Risks: - Early taking attentions of parties who does not like the free energy. - Being bombarded with theories of any kinds. - Spend efforts to satisfy the public as respond critics and fraud claims. - Forced to competition with other hypothetical free energy machines which eventually pull the debate to a hypothetical platform. - Excess speculations will expel scientific people from the research. - Increase the probability of black suited men on the front door. - Constraint the full freedom that we profit currently for the development of this project. - May lead to some psychological conditioning on us to deviate our right reasoning. Profits: (you fill them) Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 13:47:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA21529; Thu, 29 May 1997 13:37:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:37:38 -0700 Message-Id: <338DE7C0.AA385328 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:32:00 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Art Bell WANTS smot-x X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"G6Anc.0.JG5.HaUZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Addendum: Please consider that William Beaty not yet announced something in his site about the SMOT project before going to public. Ask his opinion. Press always want new issues to consume as fast as possible without looking the long range profits. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 13:59:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA24735; Thu, 29 May 1997 13:54:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:54:47 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <338D422F.5182 math.ucla.edu> References: <338D2F83.369B microtronics.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:53:36 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs Resent-Message-ID: <"yU_GA1.0.L26.MqUZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Barry - > In any case, it should be clear from these > comments and Martin's that there is ample > energy available from minor alterations to > the free space field (per above) and/or > magnetization (per martin's comments) > (Note a *1 part in 1000* reduction in > magnetization would give a few (~10) > milli-Joules of energy, also enough to > perform as above) due to the perturbing > presence of the ball in the system are enough > to "power" the device to run in "closed loop" > mode for a couple hours---exactly what is > observed. Any reason to think this is not > what is occuring? Greg and others have posted clear and concise reasons why this is not what is occuring: the SMOTs run longer, and they don't stop on their own - they are stopped by people, or they rumble out of adjustment. Further, could you explain the presumed state of the device under your explanation after the SMOT has stopped? Are you saying it cannot then be restarted? Does something have to relax for a while? Are the magnets depleted of their strength? Is the steel ball too magnetized (we could just switch to ferrite in that case)? I admit I don't fully understand what you are saying, but I do appreciate your trying to inject a little sanity here. The rest of us have become perhaps a little too excited as you can see, and some sober and careful analysis is called for. But it's still going to have to fit the observed facts, and the scenario you have presented appears to fall a bit short of that. Do you have anything else? Will you build a SMOT? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 14:09:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA00584; Thu, 29 May 1997 13:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: 29 May 97 16:56:36 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Simon paper about sociology Message-ID: <970529205635_72240.1256_EHB54-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"nkrOA1.0.19.CuUZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Regarding the paper by Bart Simon, "Undead Science: Making Sense of Cold Fusion After the (Arti)fact," Mitchell Swartz wrote: When will someone do a real thesis on this field with an actual appraisal of the literature? Aren't there ANY EE, ME, physicists, chemists, or electrochemists out there? Ed Storms has written several superb theses based on actual appraisals of the literature. Gene Mallove wrote "Fire from Ice" which remains the best in-depth review of the field, based on the literature. I think it is unfair to criticize Simon on this score. His paper is not about cold fusion *per se.* It is about sociology. When a sociologist or an anthropologist writes about the human relationships in a Japanese automobile factory, a fishing village, or a large New York City hospital, he includes little information about cars, fish, or medicine. The Simon paper is about how people do science, how they perceive it, and how controversies are resolved or not resolved. Those are interesting and worthwhile subjects. They are not the focus of this forum, although they come up here from time to time, often raised by me. Here, we talk about the meal, not the arguments in the kitchen. Since it is off topic, I am not going to review the Simon paper in detail here, but I'd like to offer some unvarnished, unsupported opinions: The paper isn't bad, but I think Bruce Lewenstein's treatment better. The paper includes many unattributed comments with footnotes like #61, "interview with an electrochemist at a university." If you cannot give the name, the date, and the university, you shouldn't quote it. Not in a formal paper. That might be acceptable in a casual conversation or Internet gab, but it is no basis for a serious opinion. If the fellow refuses to go on record the I would say something like: "16 out of 30 professional electrochemists I contacted refused to go on record." There is too much sociology jargon and phrases like "deconstructable rhetorical effects." Simon violates of the rules for introducing jargon and acronyms. I mean the rules in "The Elements of Style" by Strunk and White. I do not usually advocate harsh punishment, but when writers ignore Strunk and White, I see no reason why we shouldn't hand them over to the Taliban. We have too many writers anyway. Simon sometimes thinks he can read minds, or conjure up public opinion surveys. He opens with a dramatic statement: In October 1993, almost four years after their initial press conference, Professors Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons reported a new phenomenon associated with their infamous cold fusion experiments. They called the new effect "Heat after Death" . . . The two hundred participants at the 4th International Conference on Cold Fusion held that December in Hawaii were hoping for a little more than this. The majority of those attending already agreed that the effects associated with cold fusion could not be explained in terms of errors or artifacts, and what they desired was a more detailed experimental protocol for how to produce the phenomenon reliably . . . How does Simon know the participants were hoping for more from Pons and Fleischmann? What percent of the participants wanted more? How many people did he interview to establish this fact, and what questions did he ask them? I myself have no statistics. I can only speak of my impressions (and for that reason I would never make a statement like this in a formal paper on sociology). But as far as I know, nobody at ICCF4 expected an experimental protocol from P&F or any other corporate researchers. I did not expect IMRA to pass out cardboard boxes full of cash, either. Overall, the thesis that Simon wishes to test -- his starting point -- seems naive to me. He is testing the idea that: . . . controversies are thought to be productive of both stable social worlds and scientific knowledge. We tend to describe this process today in terms of the coordination of action, the black boxing of facts, or the putting of ships into bottles. All these metaphors refer to the simultaneous construction of knowledge and social order in terms of the collective convergence of practice and belief, and the practical elision of differences. He examines the idea that science works rationally to resolve issues and make progress. I suppose someone should examine this idea. But it is a bit like writing a thesis around questions like this: "Does Congress put the public interest first? Is campaign financing really intended to promote democracy, or is the goal to re-elect incumbents?" Perhaps I am a born cynic, or I have been in business too long, but I assume that scientists are mainly interested in power and money. When progress serves their needs, they are in favor of it. But when scientists find a way to profit from confusion, ignorance and lies, they will work to prevent progress and destroy the truth. Doctors are generally in favor of public health, but when it serves their needs -- or when they have been bought off -- they promote disease and misery. Today's New York Times, for example, describes how the AMA sided with the tobacco lobby in the 1960s, and how it fought to prevent medicare. As Szpack puts it, "scientists believe whatever you pay them to believe." Obviously there is *some* progress in science. There has to be: the old farts die eventually. But in general I would expect that mindless opposition to new ideas, vicious political arguments, and irrational controversies will dominate the process and take up most of people's time. That is how it works in medicine, business, education, product safety, the FAA, computer companies, and every other human institution I know of. I do not see why physics should be any different. People in these other institutions must collect information, "construct knowledge," and refine techniques, just as scientists must do. It is a vital part of everyone's job. But there is no "coordination of action" or "black boxing of facts" in these fields. To the contrary, there is endles controversy, deception, propaganda, lying, hiding or stealing valuable information. Why should there be gracious harmony or group consensus in physics? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 14:18:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA28424; Thu, 29 May 1997 14:14:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:14:11 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970529171036.00de70bc world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:10:40 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Simon paper about sociology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_6N5X3.0._x6.X6VZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:56 PM 5/29/97 EDT, Jed wrote: >To: Vortex > >Regarding the paper by Bart Simon, "Undead Science: Making Sense of Cold >Fusion After the (Arti)fact," Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > When will someone do a real thesis on this field with an actual > appraisal of the literature? Aren't there ANY EE, ME, physicists, > chemists, or electrochemists out there? > >Ed Storms has written several superb theses based on actual appraisals of the >literature. Gene Mallove wrote "Fire from Ice" which remains the best in-depth >review of the field, based on the literature. Jed, I think both Gene and Edmund already have the PhDs. I said "thesis". I meant "thesis". Neither Gene or Edmund have done a thesis on cold fusion. Right? Perhaps you didnt understand what I meant, because a thesis involves a concerted guided supervised effort of research (experimental or theoretical) over several years on a single focused subject, as opposed to the review paper and book which you cite. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 14:46:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA00738; Thu, 29 May 1997 14:43:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:43:18 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:49:29 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Quest for FIRE Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"w_xda.0.RB.rXVZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: TO all 'de-magnetizing is what its about skeptic's' :) Ok: One last story THEN I'm out of here... Taking all this SMOT stuff & going to my office to GO ROTARY!! 1) I built smot1 on my kitchen table (20 minutes max) ----------> I saw the smot! -errrr SMOKE! (where there's smot there's FIRE)!! whatever.. 2) 12 years ago I bought my wife a set of "HOME Tools"! I even painted them 'PINK' so I wouldn't be able to 'sneak off with them all over the place (as she said). (she's very handy too!) 3) I was putting them back, (as in GETTING out of here & Building Rotary!) when I NOTEd:*: I provided HER with (2) Black and Decker MAGNETIC STRIPS to hold up her collection of tools. ----- she has at least 20 pounds of screwdriver set(s), chisels, files, tin snips, pliers (assorted), (3) Vice-Grips, Hex wenches (set(s)mm+), Hack saw on (two) 20" magnetic STRIPS.....etc. ------ NOTE: 12 years LATER.. uhh they still HAVE NOT fallen down (wall mount) "depleating the internal spin of aligned magnetic flux" whatever! 12 YEARS no-depleation!... but who am i to say :) -duh- Wasn't there a discovery of a circular 'Load Stone' that an Asian King used to pass his 'audiance' through to 'SEE' if they were carrying knives?? About 5,000 years AGO?? geee, that still works too???? hummmm ------ i'm so 'dumb' I would only go for something THAT WORKS (silly me!) Quest for FIRE (the EMBER has Spoken!! -Thanks GREG!- ------ Yes, (head lower -eyes to the ground-(sigh)) I built my first SMOT1 with 'PINK' handled TOOLS!!! (sorry guys)! But IT WORKED!! :):):) Oh, She also has a 'Pink-handled Strob Light' to tune up the cars on the odd week-ends she get's off :) [ talented gal!:) ] My office workshop is MUCH better equip'd! all black & greasy & tools All over the place (no mags) there 'by golly!'. 4) Again, HAT'S off to the EMBER-SMOKE-FIRE man Thanks GREG! YOU ARE ALREADY GOING DOWN IN HISTORY... it's SNOWBALLING NOW! :) Skeptics: "Use any tools you have - Join in & ENJOY!! -" ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=- O POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2 freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX p.s. Greg: you can put on your 'kit' "Where there's SMOT there's FIRE!" if you want, but the wife just slapped me on the side of the head and reminded me I'm not in the advertising business... (ouch:) exit stage Left! i'm smoldering, i'm hot, i'm OUT-a-HERE! and as others would say "GOOD and Don't come back till you GOT SOMETHING!!!" (heh-heh-heh OK, but, I've GOT FIRE! Have you got a wheel?...) This could be better than SEX! (ouch!) incoming slap from the wife.... RETRACT that last one :) c-u-soON!! :) ------------ bye From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 14:46:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA00318; Thu, 29 May 1997 14:41:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:41:32 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970529101431.006d1338 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:40:26 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: AntiG Correlation (Re: SMOT or RMOT) Resent-Message-ID: <"_--8b.0.r4.BWVZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell - > What was used in the expts you describe? 1" neo's in the off-the-cuff test I did. I don't kn ow what Fred used - it might have been coils, I'm not sure. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 14:52:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA06452; Thu, 29 May 1997 14:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: 29 May 97 17:44:54 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Simon paper about sociology Message-ID: <970529214454_100433.1541_BHG70-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"bfyPU3.0.ka1.dbVZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitch, > ... a thesis involves a concerted guided supervised effort of > research (experimental or theoretical) over several years on a > single focused subject, as opposed to the review paper and book > which you cite. That's a very narrow definition of the word. Any good dictionary will show that it carries a wide range of meanings. Think only for example of "thesis and antithesis." Hope this helps, Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 15:00:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA06807; Thu, 29 May 1997 14:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:45:09 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: bearings Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"bx7VX1.0.Hg1.WdVZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., I have postage scale, ball bearing weights; 0.59 " a little less than 1/2 oz. 0.875 " ~ 1.5 oz 1.3 " a little more than 5 oz. All will accelerate up incline with modified SMOT. It is very nice to see a 5 ounce 1- 1/4" steel ballbearing operate up the ramp. Using the little ~ 0.6" it really zips along. I have a "V" track, and it is held with a screw in the middle, the largest ball rides high enough to clear the screw head........ the little ball will not clear the screw head. If you use the little ball it zips along, crashes into and bounces over the screw and zips along to the and and is ejected with some vigor. All ball sizes work with the same adjustment, to say it another way, once set up any of the balls work with no additional adjustment. JHS Thanks again Greg! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 15:07:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA08956; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: 29 May 97 17:44:56 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Another SMOT Phase 1 Message-ID: <970529214456_100433.1541_BHG70-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"OIzRA.0.qB2.VpVZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I appreciate it is scarcely worth mentioning, but I had no trouble getting the basic Phase 1 ramp working. I got a few "one ramp roll- aways" but these are not solidly reproducible - my set-up at that time was a bit fragile. Some concern that I've altered the basic idea too much - I'm using 12*24*2mm NIB's, four per side, and the backing iron is 14*5mm strip. I'll have a go at linking two tomorrow, and if that works I'll have a go with four. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 15:07:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA03823; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:01:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:01:37 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970529175818.00e00e44 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:58:21 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Simon paper about sociology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"RvhkQ.0.fx.0pVZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:44 PM 5/29/97 EDT, you wrote: >Mitch, > > > ... a thesis involves a concerted guided supervised effort of > > research (experimental or theoretical) over several years on a > > single focused subject, as opposed to the review paper and book > > which you cite. > >That's a very narrow definition of the word. Any good dictionary will >show that it carries a wide range of meanings. Think only for example >of "thesis and antithesis." > >Hope this helps, > >Chris > > Chris, Thanks for the insight. However, here we were referring to Bart Simon's PhD (?I think) thesis proposal/draft. That sort of narrows the denotation to what we meant. Best wishes. Mitchell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 15:10:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA04254; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:03:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:03:42 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970529180011.00df5f4c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:00:15 +0000 To: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Re Bart Simon's Paper Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"kXG9k1.0.O21.zqVZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:50 AM 5/29/97 +0000, Bart wrote: >Gosh, Mitchell, I'm trying to explain to you that my paper is arguing >against the interpretation of CF as pathological science. Don't >count the words, read the paper! Bart, I did. Ok, then - first as one example - why did you call F+P's experiment "infamous". =bs In October 1993, almost four years after their initial press conference, =bs Professors Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons reported a new phenomenon =bs associated with their infamous cold fusion experiments. They called the =bs new effect "Heat after Death" . . . Presumably you mean what you say. It may have been controversial, flawed, revolutionary, but it is pejorative to call it "infamous" IMHO. Websters (op cit.) "infamous" = having a reputation of the worst kknd = causing or bringing infamy Bart, this speaks for itself. Second, the issue is not: how does the CF research look? but how has it grown, and why is it not reported as such generally. 1) The power densities in cf have increased since the F+P announcement. 10 watts per cm3 then. 100 (some say to 3000 w/cm3) now. 2) The spectrum of materials has increased. Pd then, Ni, Ti, and alloys now. 3) Number of papers (3 1989) 1 1997 ~ 4000+ perhaps with a score to hundred quality positives 4) In fact, the sine qua non of the loading, the understanding that neutrons DO NOT occur in significant quantities with cold fusion, and the biphasic output response of the active loaded samples explains some of the "negative" expts reported, which generated the secondary reactions against the field. These are a few examples, more are available at http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html If these scientific issues do not correspond to the sociologic report which you write, then the latter is based upon less than those facts. Right? BTW even copious references won't take up that much room in your thesis ;-)X Best wishes. Mitchell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 15:29:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA10994; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338E0000.31AE math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:15:28 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Art Bell WANTS smot-x References: <338DE458.93E6C61D verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PDY3P2.0.ih2.s0WZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > Hi, > > I think it is risky to go public before the phase-4 is done. > > Risks: [conspiracy theories and optimistic fantasies deleted] (Borrowing from David Letterman Show here is the US): And the number one risk of going public early: (drumroll) 1. Look like major fool when device is shown to work via elementary physics. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 15:30:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA10648; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:14:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3247E12A.18AB ats.com.au> References: <199705281242.IAA01902 ns.bluegrass.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:10:37 -1000 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: SMOT Idea using 1 ramp Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"W9Gp92.0.6c2.f-VZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts - How about using a tube with a bend in it to kick the ball out *sideways* from between a *vertically* oriented (over-under) magnet array?! No ramp, just a level acceleration for momentum. The crook in the tube forces the issue of the ball exiting the array right where you want it. I haven't tried this yet, I will this afternoon. But if there's good roll-out momentum, then it's just a simple circle route on level ground back to the start. Terry Blanton's powerful stacked magnet array would probably be good with this setup. With enough roll-out momentum... - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 15:37:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA10420; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:33:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:33:50 -0700 Date: 29 May 97 18:32:09 EDT From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: UPDATE on CETI coverage on ABC-TV Message-ID: <970529223209_76570.2270_FHU15-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"K63ks.0.kY2.CHWZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There is still a small chance that the CETI cold fusion and radioactivity remediation program will air tomorrow a.m. (May 30, 1997) on ABC-TV Good Morning America. However, the latest info is that the Oklahoma bombing trial coverage and other factors will delay the cold fusion broadcast. This message updating their earlier Press Release was received from CETI: ******* [From CETI] The filming was successfully completed on May 28,1997 but was not completed early enough for final editing for the May 30, 1997 broadcast. Consequently the segment will be aired in the near future. When we are advised of the schedule, we will contact you again by telefax so that you may watch the broadcast. ******* Sincerely, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 76570.2270 compuserve.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 15:41:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA08914; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:29:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:29:50 -0700 Date: 29 May 97 18:28:41 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Another SMOT Phase 1 Message-ID: <970529222841_76016.2701_JHC69-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"3DSx91.0.8B2.TDWZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Tinkerer said: >>I appreciate it is scarcely worth mentioning, but I had no trouble getting the basic Phase 1 ramp working.<< Are you sure? Did you double check? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 16:02:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA17283; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338E07C5.15FF microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:18:37 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT Phase 2 Details Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------310548FF5863" Resent-Message-ID: <"-JIiV3.0.yD4.iXWZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------310548FF5863 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Attached is a gif showing two treatments that can be used on the exit of the ramp. The simple one I used initially as the "S" curve is difficult to cut using hand tools and I wanted a high initial strike rate on the SMOT Phase 1 devices. All three exits will work : 1) Clean cut off. 2) Clean cut off with a 45 deg lip to shoot the ball into the next ramp. 3) "S" curve designed to give the ball the max kinetic energy into the next ramp. The exit mag fields required are very different for the class 3 exit. With the first 2 exits, the ball could become air borne as it leaves the sharply cut ramp end. If this happens, the ball will be sucked to one side array or the other. To overcome this problem, I developed the idea of using the exit mag wall to slightly push the ball back into the exit rails as it drops. This results in a good exit, but most of the balls kinetic energy has gone into the exit mag wall and very little is available to use in entering the next linked ramp. However its simple and works well. Now onto the real stuff. With the "S" curve exit, things are very different. Here we want to give back as little kinetic energy as possible. The 3mm radius at the top results in the ball seeing a slowly dropping field as it changes direction 90 deg. The top radius varies as the geometry of the ball, rail and mag field contours alter from design to design. If you wish to experiment with the "S", start with 3mm. It seems to be a good middle of the road value. The bottom curve should be larger than the rolling radius of the ball. My rolling radius is 4mm. The rolling radius is the radius the ball actualls roll on. If you try a "S" exit, be aware of the requirement for both the "S" to match exactly, otherwise the ball will be thrown to one side. I used a small round file mounted in a drill press (Wasn't switched on, just moved it up and down) to ensure the file cut was true to both sides. The "S" curve is used in the SMOT kits and they are now machine cut. The use of the "S" curve will take you back to to start in adjusting ramps. You will find in a lot easier to get exits and if you can get a lift of at least twice the balls diameter, you may be able to get a level roll away. Roll aways are not the point of Phase 2. Thats Phase 3. But that will not stop some of you. I have found that if you secure the linked ramps to a stable base (I use 12mm particle board) things will work much better. I use Blu-Tak to hold my ramps down. Seems to work well and still allows adjustment. Remember our goals in Phase 2 are : 1) Build and link at least 4 Smot ramps. 2) Achieve a lift on the last ramp of at least twice the lift of the first ramp. 3) Experiment with angular linking. 4) Play with the ramp exit curve to get the best speed into the next ramp. 5) Be able to get 8-10 balls in transit at once. 6) Report back. 7) Take pictures and videos if you can. 8) Tell as many people as you can. 9) Take a linked ramp setup to your local university. 10) Keep BUILDING and THINKING. Over to you, Greg PS : Web sites, please update your Phase 2 data with the attached drawings. --------------310548FF5863 Content-Type: image/gif; name="smot-phase-2b.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="smot-phase-2b.gif" R0lGODlh9AFMBPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgICAgAQEBPz8/AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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OlduhhMuKqdSM89k69zCPuOKd61r7QxNlyed8XECvYSOPmPwdP30385b6vv+8q8mP6uvJktp pX7rvFtJ+DgK0KSdOXrQj9zDnndx6d26RuMvfm6mv3nVMeem3h9u7DrHMvfjDntwsl33mV/M 42l5/x5zvv/+/z8ABqAADiABFqABHiACJqACLiADNqADPmDxqN2hgNpZAZeQDd6AZVgeoZiz 5R9OGc65IZKOvZionZkosQeUxdkXlYijER+TuRjEfVqCONoftdaWWNnnDN+F+Zwo+d2BNR0Q xuAJrpm6BZ5PKDzaKY1I9lUYm1mb0VEb+JlRAl7eLi3ZD0IgFmahFm4hF3ahF34hGIahGI4h GZahGZ4hGqahGq4hG3JGQAAAOw== --------------310548FF5863-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 16:53:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA22947; Thu, 29 May 1997 16:49:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:49:48 -0700 Message-ID: <338E15A9.56C8 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:17:53 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT QField Sims References: <01BC6C44.DAD688C0 sy-snootles.mdm.mke.execpc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YcBko3.0.Pc5.ROXZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hawkeye wrote: > > one question about the SMOT. How many ways can you get power off of it? I can only think of two ways. Hi Hawkeye, The RMOD produces torque. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 16:58:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA24840; Thu, 29 May 1997 16:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338E1548.3A8C microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:16:16 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT Criteria References: <338CF8A9.F1F59EB5 verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6E112CBF21A" Resent-Message-ID: <"nketC1.0.u36.YNXZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6E112CBF21A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Greg - > > Have you accidently switched the meanings of positions 2 and 3 in your GIF? > > - Rick Monteverde Hi Rick, No. Point 2 is where the equiv entry field is encountered on roll out (after dropping to the entry level) and the ball is sucked back to the exit ramp. Point 3 is where the equiv entry field density is encountered on the way down and the ball continues to fall to the entry level and roll away. Smot ramps can move between class 2 and class 3 with different mag array setups. Its all in the return fields of the arrays. I posted a series of gifs some time ago showing how the "Hole" between two attractive magnets varies with their spacing. Those Gifs are the basis of the way I "Control" the exit field contours in SMOT ramps. 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In-Reply-To: <970529214456_100433.1541_BHG70-2 CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:46:25 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Another SMOT Phase 1 Resent-Message-ID: <"SmtQy1.0.726.0NXZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris - You got one-ramp rollaways on rails at the starting level, or on a drop to the table top? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 17:20:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA29395; Thu, 29 May 1997 17:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:16:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <338E0000.31AE math.ucla.edu> References: <338DE458.93E6C61D verisoft.com.tr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:04:40 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Art Bell WANTS smot-x Resent-Message-ID: <"WyZfg2.0.CB7.InXZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry - > 1. Look like major fool when device is shown to work > via elementary physics. Hey, I bet it does work via elementary physics. Everything else does, why should this be an exception? You wouldn't look foolish unless you were assigning the inappropriate or incorrect physics to it. I think the #1 reason anyway would be 'it turns out it really doesn't work, and you spoke publicly before *you* closed the loop.' I'm beginning to doubt that its turning up non-functional will be the result, but until I see it myself on my own benchtop, I'm not "speaking publicly" (claiming myself) that it is an overunity device, it runs for hours longer than can be accounted for by more or less conventional explanations, that the magnets don't die out, etc. Greg has pretty much claimed these things though, and has been open and honest about it all so far. It would be a big surprise to see a major diversion from that at this point. Basically I'm not disagreeing with you very much - I think we should wait a bit and see lots of closed-loop replications of Greg's design, 100+ hour runs, no dead magnets - _then_ celebrate (and work hard on our own rotary designs). And we do have to put your challenge about dying magnets firmly behind us before we can expect to lock up our off-grid homes, jump into our shiny new 1998 Smotmobiles and hum quietly off into the smog-free sunset. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 17:33:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA30105; Thu, 29 May 1997 17:30:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:30:41 -0700 Message-Id: <199705300030.RAA16390 popmail.UCSD.EDU> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Bart Simon" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:32:12 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Simon paper about sociology Reply-to: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: <970529205635_72240.1256_EHB54-1 CompuServe.COM> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Resent-Message-ID: <"MfF7I1.0.JM7.n-XZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Golly Vorts, I think i'd rather be a SMOT :) Now I understand what you all get into with this e-tussling... its fun though, and I am grateful. Jed's too cynical about scientists for my taste, the one's i've studied in various ways are really quite friendly folks which makes understanding what happens when they don't get along more interesting (it sure seems that the bulk of mundane scientific work happens without much disagreement -- the stuff you read in the news tends to focus on the nasty bits, buts thats journalists for you...). Just one point about doing sociology. Jed wrote: > The paper includes many unattributed comments with footnotes like #61, > "interview with an electrochemist at a university." If you cannot give the > name, the date, and the university, you shouldn't quote it. Not in a formal > paper. This is standard practice in sociology (although I do need to add the dates) - if one researcher wishes to remain anonymous then its better that they all remain so ... I like that better then calling them subject A or making up names. Of course this is bad if you want to check up on me, but if what I say doesn't accord with your own experience, the idea is that you should speak up. In this sense what I am doing is quite different from either History or journalism. Just a wee comment - Jed writes: > But in general I > would expect that mindless opposition to new ideas, vicious political > arguments, and irrational controversies will dominate the process and take up > most of people's time. That is how it works in medicine, business, education, > product safety, the FAA, computer companies, and every other human institution > I know of. I do not see why physics should be any different. Let's say i'm willing to go along with this for the moment - how does anything ever get done in this vision of society? cheers, Bart ============================================ Bart Simon Dept. of Sociology/Science Studies-0533 University of California at San Diego (UCSD) 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA, 92093-0533 phone: 619-534-0491/fax: 619-534-3388 =========================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 17:41:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA32329; Thu, 29 May 1997 17:39:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:39:21 -0700 Message-ID: <338E2142.499D microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:07:22 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Smot Phase 2 Contest Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6TnSX2.0.yu7.u6YZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I will give away a SMOT ramp kit to the first 2 people who can show 4 linked SMOT ramps with a final lift at least 2 times the original and a roll away. Photos required. You now have ALL the necessary info to do this. The gun has sounded, the race has started, the clock is ticking, go for it! Good Building and Linking, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 17:54:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA02450; Thu, 29 May 1997 17:51:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:51:47 -0700 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:51:27 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Suddenly things get very interesting! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"i5C-_.0.Cc.YIYZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 29 May 1997, Terry Blanton wrote: > Martin Sevoir said: > > >>Then Terry Blantan and maybe Hamdi Ucar claim to have seen OU effects in a > single ramp.<< > > I make no claims. I am simply reporting what I did and saw. Damned thing could > be magic, FAIK. [snip] > Martin, build a ramp yet? It's really easy if you use the tapered magnet > approach. > Yes Terry. I got mine going a couple of days ago. I guess you missed it amongst all the other "me too" 's! Can you carefully describe your graduated magnet setup? I'd really like to reproduce your effect. Draw ascii art pictures if you like. Cheers Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 18:13:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA06397; Thu, 29 May 1997 18:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338E2670.1247 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:29:28 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Magnets Don't Die References: <338DE458.93E6C61D verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cqZu_3.0.nZ1.HSYZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Barry - > > > 1. Look like major fool when device is shown to work > > via elementary physics. > > Hey, I bet it does work via elementary physics. Everything else does, why > should this be an exception? You wouldn't look foolish unless you were > assigning the inappropriate or incorrect physics to it. > > I think the #1 reason anyway would be 'it turns out it really doesn't work, > and you spoke publicly before *you* closed the loop.' I'm beginning to > doubt that its turning up non-functional will be the result, but until I > see it myself on my own benchtop, I'm not "speaking publicly" (claiming > myself) that it is an overunity device, it runs for hours longer than can > be accounted for by more or less conventional explanations, that the > magnets don't die out, etc. Greg has pretty much claimed these things > though, and has been open and honest about it all so far. It would be a big > surprise to see a major diversion from that at this point. > > Basically I'm not disagreeing with you very much - I think we should wait a > bit and see lots of closed-loop replications of Greg's design, 100+ hour > runs, no dead magnets - _then_ celebrate (and work hard on our own rotary > designs). > > And we do have to put your challenge about dying magnets firmly behind us > before we can expect to lock up our off-grid homes, jump into our shiny new > 1998 Smotmobiles and hum quietly off into the smog-free sunset. > > - Rick Monteverde Hi Rick, Well it seems we have gone very quickly past a very important point. Seems not too long ago, no one thought that you could get magnets to do work. Period. Impossible. No one has every done it. And so on. I have a whole archive of the stuff. Now that that fairy fail is dead, have we forgotten so quickly where we are now. MAGNETS CAN DO REAL WORK. Smot proves that. That alone is a major change in our view of the physical world. The question I asked some time ago about where the energy is coming from is now on the forefront. I did ask earlier. I don't know, but I know the magnets don't die. Would I have taken you this far as a joke? What I am sharing with you is a REAL device. It works. The magnets don't die. I am concerned as to what we will have to pay the ferryman for the energy. I know you need proof of my "magnet's don't die" claim. Who can rig up a ball dropper for Barry so 2 balls a secong can be dropped into the entry of a SMOT ramp? Who can come up with a solid set of figures for how many balls must pass through a SMOT ramp before a measurable drop in magnet field strength occurs. Hey theory guys, come up with a solid set of data and we will find someone (Jean-Louis) who can rig up a test setup and film it working. Maybe online to the net in real time? Meter showing magnet field strength, counter showing number of balls passing through the single SMOT ramp. Hey, I know they don't die, but what's my word worth? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 18:18:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA05804; Thu, 29 May 1997 18:10:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:10:16 -0700 Message-Id: <338E284F.977A43C9 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 05:07:27 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Suddenly things get very interesting! X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FToOB3.0.cQ1.tZYZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > Martin Sevoir said: > > > > >>Then Terry Blantan and maybe Hamdi Ucar claim to have seen OU > effects in a single ramp.<< > > > > I make no claims. I am simply reporting what I did and saw. Damned > > thing could be magic, FAIK. I also did not claimed OU. What I said: >> I measured 1 - 1.5 mm height loss. No gain. But I am not sure such a potential is enough to drive the ball on my lossly setup. I think it is not possible to get a positive or negative result from this experiment.<< Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 18:44:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA14968 for billb@eskimo.com; Thu, 29 May 1997 18:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:44:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: ben clubelite.com Thu May 29 18:44:07 1997 Received: from terax.clubelite.com ([204.146.156.220]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA14914 for ; Thu, 29 May 1997 18:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jumanji ([204.146.156.217]) by terax.clubelite.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-0U10) with SMTP id AAA321; Thu, 29 May 1997 21:50:52 -0400 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: ben clubelite.com (Ben Tammetta) To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Old-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:38:45 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Smot Phase 2 Contest Reply-to: tammetta mindspring.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <338E2142.499D microtronics.com.au> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Message-ID: <19970530015052169.AAA321 jumanji> X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: Hi Greg Good Idea :) > I will give away a SMOT ramp kit to the first 2 people who can show 4 > linked SMOT ramps with a final lift at least 2 times the original and a > roll away. Photos required. ###################### # Ben Tammetta # # ben clubelite.com # ###################### From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 18:45:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA13707; Thu, 29 May 1997 18:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970529183638.00b22540 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:36:47 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: hot SMOT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4hn4t3.0.1M3.GzYZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Why the weird improbable explanation ? Ockham's Razor. The heating and slow cooling of a tempered steel used in a bearing ball MAKES IT SOFTER both mechanically and magnetically. Have you ever heated up a knife read-hot and than noticed that it doesn't stay sharp anymore (even if it is sharpened later) !!! Heating and SLOWLY cooling up tempered iron, carbon, nickel based alloys (ie. bearing ball) always makes them softer and increases their magnetic permeability, THIS IS CALLED ANNEALING. Annealing is really easy to notice by using a spring-weight-scale and measuring the pull force on the bearing ball before and after heating (using the same magnet of course) I have been achieving higher SMOT efficiencies by using a glass marble filled with powdered iron (this idea precedes the ""Ball suffering of magnetism!"" post). And NO the iron powder doesn't suffer at all after a lot of trips through the SMOT ramp. To: Dan Quickert If you have the same kind of bearing ball that has not been heated yet, compare the force it takes to separate the unheated ball VERSUS the heated ball from THE SAME magnet. Also notice how much easier it is to dent the heated ball with a hammer. Heating the ball however has a negative side effect on the friction efficiency. Firstly because the smooth surface is oxidized and becomes rough, secondly the mechanical harness decreases and that increases the friction against the U channel. Your observed higher SMOT efficiency comes from the good polishing job you did and the fact that the increased "magnetic softness" outweighs the mechanical friction increase. At 09:24 PM 5/29/97 +0400, you wrote: >Dan Quickert wrote: >> >> I heated a ball bearing to red-hot with a propane torch, then cooled >> it >> slowly. Had to spend some time repolishing it afterwards. This made a >> small >> but noticeable improvement in performance. >> >This is consistent with my observation by the posting >"Ball suffering of magnetism!" at Thu, 29 May 1997 01:53:05 +0400 > >Regards, > >Hamdi Ucar > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 19:06:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA16295; Thu, 29 May 1997 19:04:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:04:08 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338E3590.241C math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:04:00 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Art Bell WANTS smot-x References: <338DE458.93E6C61D verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gj1yJ.0.T-3.NMZZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > we need > 100+ hour runs, no dead magnets > ...put your challenge about dying magnets firmly behind us One more time: a 100 hour plus run of the device would be needed just to show clearly it is not tapping the energy of **local field nullification** (which is an effect clearly indicated in Gregs field simulation pictures). This does not produce dead or weakened magnets at all! It is just the energy from the field perturbation bear the ball. Take the ball away and the system is like new. To show you are not consuming the field of the magnetcs themselves, i.e. permanently demagnetizing them----would require a run of 10,000 hours, or a 1,000 hour run with a check that magnets have not lost more than~ 1% of their strength. Of course, such long runs are silly. As Bill B said, runs of ~ 1 hour in a sufficiently high friction system would be the way to go. The point of qouting the numbers above is not to suggest attempting such ultralong runs---rather its to point out that the "closed loop" runs of several hours quoted by Greg are meaningless as far as demonstrating anomalous functioning. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 19:11:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA16040; Thu, 29 May 1997 18:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338E32DE.6C4D math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:52:30 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs References: <338D2F83.369B microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nIwZ12.0.Vw3.HCZZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There seems to be some confusion over the mechanism I am postulating for powering the SMOT. Let me clarify. I am *not* postulating that the permanent magnets become demagnetized. I do not see any direct mechanism for demagnetization (yet). However, it is important to note that *if* demagnetization could occur, it would only require a ~ 1 part in 1000 reduction in magnetization to power the device as observed. (Toy SMOT runs for ~ 1 hour) What I am suggesting is the following: when the ball is introduced into the field, its own magnetic response nullifies the field energy in its vicinity (this is clearly shows in the plots of B provided on the SMOT WWW site). This energy is then available to power the rolling of the ball against drag and friction (and other losses). Accounting for these energies seems to suggest the motion would persist for ~ 1 hour. To the same degree of accuracy as the calculations, this is how long Greg said the simple ball-on-track SMOT would run before stopping. Here are more precise estimates of the energies involved: Energy lost by the field due to presence of the ball: ----------------------------------------------------- dE_B= (original field energy density)x(volume of depletion zone) = B0^2/(2 mu0) x (~ 20 * 10^-3 m)^3 B0 = 0.04 Tesla by Gregs field simulations = 0.005 Joules Kinetic energy of the ball: --------------------------- K = (1/2) m v^2 m ~ 10 grams, v ~ 1 cm/sec (estimate---better value?) = .5 * 0.01 * 0.01^2 = 5*10^-7 or, for arbitrary velocity v, since K scales like v^2 K(v) = 5* 10^-7 * v (v in units of cm/sec) Gravitational Potential of Ball going up in elevation ------------------------------------------------------ U = m g h = 0.01 kg * 10 m/s^2 * 0.01m (for h = 1 cm = 0.01m) = 0.001 Joules = 0.001 * h Joules (in general, if h is in units of cm) Losses to air Drag: -------------- P_drag = drag power loss = C A (1/2) rho v^2 where A = cross sectional area of ball = pi (r_ball)^2 = pi (0.006)^2 = 0.0001 m^2 rho = density of air = 1.4 kg/m^3 v = ball velocity ~ 0.01 m/s C = Drag Coeff = 24/Re (Re = Reynolds number = 2 r_ball v/ nu_air, nu_air = kinematic viscosity of air = 10^-5 m/s^2, So for r_ball = 0.006, v = 0.01, Re ~ 10, C ~ 2 (Ref: Batchelor's Book on Fluid Mechanics, page 233) => P_drag = 10^-8 Watts (or, at arbitrary speed, since P scales like v overall, P_drag(v) = 10^-8 * v Watts (v in units of cm/sec) Rolling Friction losses: ------------------------ P_fric = power loss to rolling friction = F . v where F = rolling friction force = c W, W = weight of ball = 0.01 kg * 10 m/s^2 = 0.1 Newton, c = coeff of rolling friction. According to the article on Friction in Communications in Physics, vol 2, 1961, for polished metals coefficients of sliding friction are in the range of 0.3--1.5, and with lubrication (e.g the graphite used by Greg) this is cut by ~ 10 fold, and coeffients of rolling friction for hard surfaces are reduced ~ 1000 fold from the sliding frcition coeff. Thus we can estimate that c ~ 1 * (1/10) * (1/1000) with lubrication and polished surfaces. Thus P_fric = 10^-4 * 0.1 * 0.01 Watts (at v = 0.01m/s) = 10^-7 Watts or, for arbitrary v, P_fric(v) = 10^-7 * v Watts, (v in units of cm/sec.) So, we now note the following: Overall dissipation is around 10^-7 Watts (need to add in eddy current losses too, really) while the available free energy is up to ~ 0.005 Joules. This is enough energy to drive the system for 5 * 10^4 seconds, which is 15 hours. Thus, even if one assembles the closed loop system and it goes for ~ 15 hours, there would not really be anything too amazing, i.e. beyond the amounts of energy seeminly available to drive such things. As I said, one check on the above would be to start the ball at rest from *the position of max field strength*, held there for a while to let it cancel whatever field it can, so it cannot gain further energy by diamagnetic cancellation of the field. One extremeley important thing to note is that the Kinetic energy of the ball is only K = 5*10^-7 v^2 Joules (v in cm/sec)---this is TINY! We see the magnetic fields are perfectly capable of supplying 1000 x this much with only a small perturbation of the overall field. Also, the enrgy associated with the vertical motion of the ball is U = 0.001 h Joules (h in cm)---this is also modest compared to the readily available field energy ~ 0.005 J. Thus---pay attention here, this is the punch line---the energies of all the *observed motion* (motion along track, and vertical elevation)---are all *SMALL* compared to readily available field energy in the vicinity of the ball. And, the energy going to the dissipation mechanisms is all small compared to this out time of ~ 10 hours. Thus, I see no reason to expect that it is anything other than converting the energy from local field nullification into vertical and horizontal motion of the ball, and the the dissipative effects don't really impact this for 10's of hours. A SMOT running for 100-1000 hours would be needed to counter even my *minimal mechanism above* (it would run almost forever--10,000 hours---if it were instead somehow demagnetizing the magnetics, which is not what I suggested!). (Or, as Bill B. said, make a SMOT with about 100 x the friction so that running for 1 hour would be meaningful). I think the Mystery of the SMOT is begining to fade rapidly, though it may remain difficult to pin down the precise, detailed physics of the magnet-ball interaction. I encourage Greg to devote his life to this, though, if he so chooses. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 20:34:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA31536; Thu, 29 May 1997 20:27:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:27:57 -0700 Message-ID: <338E4B69.33D1 skypoint.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:37:13 -0500 From: John Logajan Organization: Skypoint Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs References: <338D2F83.369B microtronics.com.au> <338E32DE.6C4D@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0As-k1.0.gi7.zaaZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: > What I am suggesting is the following: when the ball is > introduced into the field, its own magnetic response > nullifies the field energy in its vicinity (this is clearly > shows in the plots of B provided on the SMOT WWW site). > This energy is then available to power the rolling > of the ball against drag and friction (and other losses). Though that might be analogus to carrying a bowling ball half way down a hill and then releasing it and expecting it to roll to its final velocity as if it were dropped from the top of the hill. By the "numbers" that potential energy should have become available as kinetic energy. But we know the act of carrying it part way down the hill squandered the potential energy (in local heating.) Similarly, putting the ball in the ramp, even if it (and it does) lowers the potential energy, but if the ball is brought to a dead stop and released, that potential energy given up in the act of placing the ball, is squandered. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 20:35:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA31851; Thu, 29 May 1997 20:28:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:28:53 -0700 Date: 29 May 97 23:26:19 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Suddenly things get very interesting! Message-ID: <970530032619_76016.2701_JHC53-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"QTQnW1.0.Zn7.qbaZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Martin Sevior asked: >>Can you carefully describe your graduated magnet setup? I'd really like to reproduce your effect. Draw ascii art pictures if you like.<< Okay, just about anything works depending on the ramp angle. (ASCII piccys? -- ugh! -- I don't even own a fixed-space font. ) Tape a row of five 1" by 1/2" rect. mag.s to a piece of tape with their long dimension along the edge and their S poles facing the adhesive. Do it again with the N poles on the adhesive. You have your base array which can be mounted at a critical angle to the ramp to get the effect. Or ignore the critical angle and place them parallel to the ramp. Now, at the exit of the right array allow another magnet to attach (via like poles) to the end magnet. Repeat 3 times. Now repeat for the left array. You now have the field of 4 magnets (less blocking) at each the left and right array exits. Go to the next magnet on the tape and place three more magnets on each side. The next magnet on the tape gets two, the next one, and the last none. You have created a field gradient similar to spreading the entrance end of the arrays wider than the exit end of the array. This eliminates a variable (the magnet array "spreading" angle) but results in a jerky movement up the ramp. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 20:43:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA02303; Thu, 29 May 1997 20:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338E4D23.72B6 skypoint.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:44:35 -0500 From: John Logajan Organization: Skypoint Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs References: <970529144857_100433.1541_BHG92-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0PWki1.0.tZ.biaZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley wrote: > Secondly, and I know I'm on very shaky ground here, what about this > field energy question? Here's a crude thought experiment (made with > crude thoughts): Imagine very many small, powerful permanent magnets > arranged in a close matrix in space. Each is constrained so that their > axes are randomly oriented. The resultant field, I think, will be zero. > > Now gradually remove the restraints on their orientations (but not their > locations). They should eventually move to be in the same orientation? There's an odd class of materials that develop fields in the opposite direction. That would seem to argue against the notion that the local energy "minima" always results in a stronger magnetic field. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 21:18:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA07317; Thu, 29 May 1997 21:16:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:16:01 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:13:13 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: sse-l jsasoc.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Mini-comets and "pathological skepticism" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Resent-Message-ID: <"zaxCX3.0.Bo1.0IbZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Did everyone catch the announcement re. "mini-comets" bombarding Earth constantly? Ever since noticing an article about this in The Anomalist (MOVING THE GOALPOSTS, http://www.cloud9.net/~patrick/anomalist/goal.html), I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop. It seems that the discoverer, Dr. L. Frank, encountered closeminded hostility regarding his evidence that tons of water arrive on earth daily, causing mysterious blotches in the UV glow of the ionosphere. Today's Boston Globe article mentions: If Frank was right, ``we would have to burn half the contents of the libraries in the physical sciences,'' said one scoffer. =20 and: =20 Frank wrote in a 1990 book about his theory, called ``The Big Splash,'' that although he had seen heated scientific controversies before, ``the reaction I received was like none I had ever experienced. I was driving a bulldozer through dozens of the neatly planted fields of science, and everyone was upset.'' one quote shows one astronomer did have a bit of insight: ``I think this shows there's a new class of celestial objects right in our own bailiwick that we didn't even know about,'' said Maran. ``It's amazing we were not even aware of this, and to the extent we were aware of it, we denied it.'' =20 This story ran on page A1 of the Boston Globe on 05/29/97. =A9 Copyright 1997 Globe Newspaper Company. http://www.globe.com Nice little Kuhn-ian mini-revolution puncturing astronomical arrogance, eh? But it appears to me that such punctures unfortunately heal faster than even the comet-holes in the ionosphere. Oh well, at least we have one more bit of evidence against "if it were real, we would already have discovered it."=20 =2E....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,...........................= =2E. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 21:24:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA07317; Thu, 29 May 1997 21:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338E5525.5A90 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:18:45 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs References: <338D2F83.369B microtronics.com.au> <338E32DE.6C4D@math.ucla.edu> <338E4B69.33D1@skypoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"w75bD1.0.Fo1.MLbZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > > Barry Merriman wrote: > > What I am suggesting is the following: when the ball is > > introduced into the field, its own magnetic response > > nullifies the field energy in its vicinity (this is clearly > > shows in the plots of B provided on the SMOT WWW site). > > This energy is then available to power the rolling > > of the ball against drag and friction (and other losses). > > Though that might be analogus to carrying a bowling ball half > way down a hill and then releasing it ... > if the ball is > brought to a dead stop and released, that potential energy > given up in the act of placing the ball, is squandered. Yes, it is. But unless you place the ball at the point of lowest potential in the system (i.e. greatest value of magnetic field quenching + gravitational potential) there will still be available energy to drive the motion. If someone wants to disprove it, they need to show the SMOT works equally well no matter where the ball is initially placed. But I doubt it does. My primary points are (a) the mechanism above is definitely present, active, and can deliver enough energy to power observed motion. Thus, care must be taken to eliminate it if one thinks one is studying excess energy. I have not seen such care so far. (b) Regardless of the the specific mechanism, the energies of the ball (kinetic, grav potential) are tiny, the dissipation mechanisms are tiny^2, and there is a 1/tiny hunk of magnetic energy sitting there wanting to be tapped---thus this system is ideal for fooling folks into thinking energy is coming out of nowhere, which is undoubtedly what it has done. Time will tell. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 21:46:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA00639; Thu, 29 May 1997 21:43:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:43:06 -0700 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 14:42:18 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs In-Reply-To: <338E5525.5A90 math.ucla.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"BEhx91.0.v9.QhbZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 29 May 1997, Barry Merriman wrote: > > My primary points are (a) the mechanism above is definitely > present, active, and can deliver enough energy to power > observed motion. Thus, care must be taken to eliminate it > if one thinks one is studying excess energy. I have > not seen such care so far. (b) Regardless of the the specific > mechanism, the energies of the ball (kinetic, grav potential) > are tiny, the dissipation mechanisms are tiny^2, Barry, you clearly haven't studied a SMOT ramp in person. There is a lot of energy dissipated through eddy currents as the ball goes through a ramp quickly and a lot more when it falls off the end and hits the next rail. I've set my ramp up so the ball doesn't fall off the end and let the ball run into it. On the first rapid pass through the system, the ball gains about 10 mm in height, then rapidly falls to about 3 mm in about 2 oscillations. Thus I estimate about E = 0.005*9.8*0.007 / 2 = 2*10**-4 Joules lost through Eddy currents alone. Three orders of magnitude higher than your estimates. I think a better test of energy consumed is "height gained free of magnetic field". It's far easier to quantify and still conservative. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 21:58:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA11188; Thu, 29 May 1997 21:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338E5D80.3E4B skypoint.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:54:24 -0500 From: John Logajan Organization: Skypoint Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oARhe2.0.ik2.TsbZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin Sevior wrote: > Let's take Greg Watson at his claim. That the ball can be made rise 12 mm > from it's starting height free of a magnetic field in a closed loop > device. Greg says that 4 linked ramps can achieve this. > > That means each pass must take at least: > > E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.012 = 0.0006 Joules of energy from somewhere. > > Your local field cancellation would be exhasted in just a few passes. To > consume the 4 Joules of energy (a very very rough calculation, I'll do > better soon) in the entire magnetic field would take 6800 passes. From my > single SMOT ramp I guess a pass could be completed in about 10 seconds. So > a closed loop SMOT with one ball could run for 68000 seconds = 19 hours. Carefull about mixing and matching configurations. A closed loop configuration always returns the ball to the initial starting height. However, a multi- ramp unclosed configuration could (if sapping the magnetic strength) gobble up your .0006J per pass. But you'd always have to hand carry the ball. Once you allow it to "fall" back to the starting point, you are getting back that .0006J potential energy as kinetic energy (minus friction losses.) So I think as Barry has done, you only should count friction type losses in a closed loop system. > By the way, I'm not sure Chris is wrong about Ferromagnets. Their lowest > energy state may be magetized anyway! Their dominant mode may be that, but there is no guarantee that a less pronounced mode may coexist in a paramagnetic fashion, in which the motion of the ball disrupts the fields and allowing these paramagnetic conspirators to slightly reduce the total magnetic field while adding impetus to the ball, and sinking to a local energy minima. Of course, I just made that whole theory up out of thin air. :-) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 22:06:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA03654; Thu, 29 May 1997 22:02:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:02:43 -0700 Message-ID: <338E5F7F.72FE skypoint.com> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:02:55 -0500 From: John Logajan Organization: Skypoint Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs References: <338D2F83.369B microtronics.com.au> <338E32DE.6C4D@math.ucla.edu> <338E4B69.33D1@skypoint.com> <338E5525.5A90@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-LXOw1.0.0v.ozbZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: > ... unless you place the ball at the point of > lowest potential in the system (i.e. greatest value of magnetic field > quenching + gravitational potential) there will still be available > energy to drive the motion. If someone wants to disprove it, > they need to show the SMOT works equally well no matter where the ball > is initially placed. But I doubt it does. Even the motion of a pendulum depends upon its initial placement. Your test might put the system outside its operational range, thus proving nothing in particular. > My primary points are (a) the mechanism above is definitely > present, active, and can deliver enough energy to power > observed motion. Thus, care must be taken to eliminate it > if one thinks one is studying excess energy. I have > not seen such care so far. (b) Regardless of the the specific > mechanism, the energies of the ball (kinetic, grav potential) > are tiny, the dissipation mechanisms are tiny^2, and there is > a 1/tiny hunk of magnetic energy sitting there wanting to be > tapped---thus this system is ideal for fooling folks into thinking > energy is coming out of nowhere, which is undoubtedly what > it has done. Time will tell. I agree you have carried the ball through a portion of its (magnetic) downhill potential no matter where you place the ball, more one place than the other. But I just don't see how you regain that squandered energy -- clearly it had to be temporarily stored in some new configuration -- a configuration that relaxes by pushing the ball around the loop. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 22:11:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA04979; Thu, 29 May 1997 22:06:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:06:46 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:06:21 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs In-Reply-To: <338D8916.5201 microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"E8z1_3.0.HD1.X1cZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 29 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > The first version of the RMOD device ran for just short of 4 days until > I STOPPED it. The magnets showed NO signs of weaking. Greg, how about more points: on your RMOD device, you mention that you've rigged up a rotating output shaft. So, why not do some crude, simple measurements of torque and energy output? Attach a cylinder to your shaft to act as a windlass. Connect up a string, run the string over a pulley and dangle it downwards, then attach lead fishing weights to it. I'd like to hear about: Windlass diameter and total lead weights needed to stall your device (gives the max output torque.) Total weights it takes to slow your device to approx. half its unloaded rotational speed (gives torque at max energy output rate.) When loaded to half-RPM, how fast are the weights lifted? (gives max energy output rate.) If the device is placed at the top of a stairwell and a very long string is dangled down, with weights on its end as above, allow the windlass to wind up the string, and mark the string length once per second, then report the sequence of lengths between marks (gives multiple data points for energy rate, and a crude measure of constancy output rate.) Another possibility: run your RMOD, then add friction somewhere so it runs at half its unloaded speed. THEN see how many hours it runs. Assuming that the energy output is similar to the windlass/weights loaded version above, the cumulative excess energy could be calculated. All this will give us a solid "feel" regarding the capabilities of your device. Also gives a handle on exactly how much power any "mundane" explanation must cope with. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 22:18:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA11959; Thu, 29 May 1997 22:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338E6E6F.25A earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:06:40 -0700 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>, vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Should we publish this? References: <970528210342_72240.1256_EHB55-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YolEa3.0.gw2.g-bZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: May 29, 1997 11PM Dear Jed, I'm pleased that my Sixth Critique might be published in Infinite Energy, along with Miley's response. I will rewrite it immediately, following your advice to make it succinct and properly dispassionate. May I publish your post to me on Vortex-L? I think it is reasonable, and I'm interested in what feedback others may offer. Often this year, I've been praised for my exuberant writing style in my posts, and some have agreed with my points. I accept that many will ignor or reject my critiques, and a few will examine my actual points, regardless of the window dressing, because they realize I am in fact discussing very specific items. One major area of my criticism of three of Miley's recent reports is that they don't present enough of the actual data to allow the reader to independently analyze the patterns. For instance, the data is often summarized as dense, tiny, poorly rendered graphs. Would Miley make the graphed data available to all inquirers as neatly printed tabular data? Especially, would Miley release all before and after data, from which he computes the difference or change data? He only did this in his First Preprint, and I was able to use simple arithmetic to show that the data did not support claims of transmutation or isotopic shifts. I add a succinct summary of this central claim in my Critiques: December 21, 1996 Dear Dr. Douglas Morrison, I was delighted to find on Vortex-L Jed Rothwell's forwarded messages from George Miley's answers to criticisms. Open and vigorous critical debate is the best honor we can render to important and unexpected research. In case you haven't seen my four critiques, I forwarded them to you. I think they're fairly unreadable, if you're not motivated enough to compare them with Miley's two preprints yourself, line by line, figure by figure. Oh well! Do you think my language was too "caustic"? I'm busy moving this weekend, but am getting ready to write a Fifth Miley Critique, pointing out more surprising errors in his preprints. I regret that I am finding some errors in the three reports of Mizuno's well-known transmutation claims, published in detail in Infinite Energy and in Journal of New Energy, and will soon write a Mizuno Critique. I believe that if a report itself is not almost totally impeccable, in terms of its clarity of language and visual design, free of proofreading errors, replete with basic data that allows the reader to easily and comprehensively double-check the claimed chains of data analysis, and carefully and thoroughly discussing any measurement and analysis problems, then critics have a duty to be corresponding skeptical about the entire body of research by that worker. You are quite right in emphasizing Feynman's practice of always being his own worst, and first, critic. Since Miley's responses to criticism have again and again mentioned that he has focused on Cu and Ag results as some of his clearest evidence for transmutations, I will take the space here to reiterate my after/before ratios in my first Miley Critique, calculated from his own data in Table 3 in his First Preprint, based on NAA analysis, given accuracy by him of +- 15 %: Isotope Atoms per Atoms per After/Before Ratio fresh beads reacted beads 29 Cu-63 3.57E+15 116.E+15 32.5 29 Cu-65 1.54E+15 49.7E+15 32.3 47 Ag-107 7.32E+15 76.1E+15 10.4 47 Ag-109 6.68E+15 61.4E+15 9.2 The remarkaby close agreement of these two pairs of values, which are for NAA analysis of different 10-bead samples, before and after, from runs using 1,000 beads each, indicates a simple multiplication of the initial number of atoms of the two elements, i.e., no isotopic shift effect, within the +- 15 % claimed NAA accuracy, hence, no evidence for transmutations. Please forward my Critiques freely to whoever may be interested. Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 rmforall earthlink.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 22:25:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA09350; Thu, 29 May 1997 22:22:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:22:31 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:22:27 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Art Bell WANTS smot-x In-Reply-To: <338E0000.31AE math.ucla.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"QqOmc3.0.0I2.MGcZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 29 May 1997, Barry Merriman wrote: > And the number one risk of going public early: > (drumroll) > > 1. Look like major fool when device is shown to work > via elementary physics. If we strive constantly to be fools, fear of damaging our reputation is no longer an issue. Imagine what the world might be like if most people adopted this philosophy! Hey Greg, maybe you SHOULD spread this all over newsgroups. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 22:45:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA12461; Thu, 29 May 1997 22:41:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:41:56 -0700 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:41:39 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs In-Reply-To: <338E5D80.3E4B skypoint.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"PisoG3.0.d23.ZYcZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 29 May 1997, John Logajan wrote: > > > > Your local field cancellation would be exhasted in just a few passes. To > > consume the 4 Joules of energy (a very very rough calculation, I'll do > > better soon) in the entire magnetic field would take 6800 passes. From my > > single SMOT ramp I guess a pass could be completed in about 10 seconds. So > > a closed loop SMOT with one ball could run for 68000 seconds = 19 hours. > > Carefull about mixing and matching configurations. A closed loop configuration > always returns the ball to the initial starting height. However, a multi- > ramp unclosed configuration could (if sapping the magnetic strength) gobble > up your .0006J per pass. But you'd always have to hand carry the ball. > Once you allow it to "fall" back to the starting point, you are getting back > that .0006J potential energy as kinetic energy (minus friction losses.) The original SMOT has the ball entering at 0 velocity. Clearly only Greg has claimed a working closed loop design at this time. However I expect that if it can be reproduced one could measure the velocity at the starting ramp and the height at the top of the highest ramp. The difference in potential energy and kinetic would have to be made up by something. That would give one a good framework to examine the energy balance. By the way, diamagnetic effects are typically 10**-8 of Ferromagnetic effects. (These reduce magetic field intensities.) Cheers Martin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 22:55:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA17700; Thu, 29 May 1997 22:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:49:07 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705300549.AAA22882 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs--Corrected Resent-Message-ID: <"gqPX01.0.RK4.AgcZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:55 AM 5/29/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: >Greg said the present toy ran for ~ 3 Hours. I recall a number of 38+ hours reported when he first got "it" running and then today he said one device had made it for 4 days of solid running, right? >note I said it could run as above using only the energy >of the ball cancelling out the field in free space---that is >not demagnetization. This energy is guaranteed to be >available---the mechanism is clear. Right, but see below. >Finally, note I said a >similar amount of energy would be available if---somehow---the >magnets were demagnetized by 1/10 of 1 percent. How noticable >would that be? Impossible to notice with a handheld Hall probe! Barry, I'm actually with you in the Mundane Explanation camp (it's where I live...). However, I feel that something is wrong with your analysis. Perhaps you underestimated the rolling friction. Maybe it's that I can see no way in which the magnetic field energy could be tapped by a rolling ball to produce a force that would continue to push the ball in the same direction around and around and around the track. Don't Maxwell's eqns tell us that the integral of F.dl on a steel ball taken around any closed loop in a magnetic field is destined to be zero (ignoring hysteresis which I think would make the round trip require a net energy _input_ for the guy carrying the ball)? In any case, my experienced intuition tells me that in an ordinary assemblage of magnets and channel, you'd never be able to get the ball to complete even two full revolutions by itself...it'd get stuck somewhere...quick. Our magnets arrive tomorrow. My son, who is at least as skeptical as I am, is promising an o-u device by nightfall.... Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 29 23:47:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA24902; Thu, 29 May 1997 23:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:37:15 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Tip for SMOT builders with rough balls and edges. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"BHk1B2.0.x46.NNdZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Polish them up with steel wool. It works really well! Cheers Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 00:03:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA26410; Thu, 29 May 1997 23:58:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:58:36 -0700 Message-ID: <338E7A2C.1CD5 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:26:44 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs References: <338D2F83.369B microtronics.com.au> <338E32DE.6C4D@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eHmUx2.0.PS6.RgdZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: > > There seems to be some confusion over the mechanism > I am postulating for powering the SMOT. Let me clarify. > > I am *not* postulating that the permanent magnets become > demagnetized. I do not see any direct mechanism for > demagnetization (yet). However, it is important to note that > *if* demagnetization could occur, it would only require > a ~ 1 part in 1000 reduction in magnetization to power the > device as observed. (Toy SMOT runs for ~ 1 hour) > > What I am suggesting is the following: when the ball is > introduced into the field, its own magnetic response > nullifies the field energy in its vicinity (this is clearly > shows in the plots of B provided on the SMOT WWW site). > This energy is then available to power the rolling > of the ball against drag and friction (and other losses). > > Accounting for these energies seems to suggest the motion > would persist for ~ 1 hour. To the same degree of accuracy > as the calculations, this is how long Greg said the simple ball-on-track > SMOT would run before stopping. I said it ran for 3 hours and 27 minutes. It stopped because a ramp moved. It started again without problems. > Here are more precise estimates of the energies involved: > > Energy lost by the field due to presence of the ball: > ----------------------------------------------------- > > dE_B= > > (original field energy density)x(volume of depletion zone) > > = B0^2/(2 mu0) x (~ 20 * 10^-3 m)^3 > > B0 = 0.04 Tesla by Gregs field simulations > > = 0.005 Joules > > Kinetic energy of the ball: > --------------------------- > > K = (1/2) m v^2 > > m ~ 10 grams, v ~ 1 cm/sec (estimate---better value?) > > = .5 * 0.01 * 0.01^2 = 5*10^-7 > > or, for arbitrary velocity v, since K scales like v^2 > > K(v) = 5* 10^-7 * v (v in units of cm/sec) > > Gravitational Potential of Ball going up in elevation > ------------------------------------------------------ > > U = m g h = 0.01 kg * 10 m/s^2 * 0.01m (for h = 1 cm = 0.01m) > = 0.001 Joules > = 0.001 * h Joules (in general, if h is in units of cm) > > Losses to air Drag: > -------------- > > P_drag = drag power loss = C A (1/2) rho v^2 > > where A = cross sectional area of ball > = pi (r_ball)^2 = pi (0.006)^2 > = 0.0001 m^2 > rho = density of air = 1.4 kg/m^3 > v = ball velocity ~ 0.01 m/s > C = Drag Coeff > = 24/Re (Re = Reynolds number = 2 r_ball v/ nu_air, > nu_air = kinematic viscosity of air > = 10^-5 m/s^2, > So for r_ball = 0.006, v = 0.01, Re ~ 10, C ~ 2 > (Ref: Batchelor's Book on Fluid Mechanics, page 233) > > => P_drag = 10^-8 Watts > > (or, at arbitrary speed, since P scales like v overall, > > P_drag(v) = 10^-8 * v Watts (v in units of cm/sec) > > Rolling Friction losses: > ------------------------ > > P_fric = power loss to rolling friction > = F . v > where F = rolling friction force = c W, W = weight of > ball = 0.01 kg * 10 m/s^2 = 0.1 Newton, c = coeff of > rolling friction. According to the article on Friction in > Communications in Physics, vol 2, 1961, for polished > metals coefficients of sliding friction are in the range > of 0.3--1.5, and with lubrication (e.g the graphite used > by Greg) this is cut by ~ 10 fold, and coeffients of rolling > friction for hard surfaces are reduced ~ 1000 fold from the > sliding frcition coeff. Thus we can estimate that > c ~ 1 * (1/10) * (1/1000) with lubrication and polished surfaces. > Thus > > P_fric = 10^-4 * 0.1 * 0.01 Watts (at v = 0.01m/s) > > = 10^-7 Watts > > or, for arbitrary v, > > P_fric(v) = 10^-7 * v Watts, (v in units of cm/sec.) > > So, we now note the following: Overall dissipation is > around 10^-7 Watts (need to add in eddy current losses too, really) > while the available free energy is up to ~ 0.005 Joules. > This is enough energy to drive the system for 5 * 10^4 seconds, > which is 15 hours. My RMOD Mark I ran for almost 4 days. I stopped it manually as it was getting tired and noisy. It will still run today. > Thus, even if one assembles the closed loop system and it > goes for ~ 15 hours, there would not really be anything too > amazing, i.e. beyond the amounts of energy seeminly available > to drive such things. Not too amazing, you must be kidding. Where is there another example of a magnet powered device doing actual work! You have stated in the past that this was impossible. Now you seem to be trying to claim the effect is not worthy of further study. Worried about your own research program Barry? > As I said, one check on the above would be to start the ball > at rest from *the position of max field strength*, held there > for a while to let it cancel whatever field it can, so it > cannot gain further energy by diamagnetic cancellation of > the field. > > One extremeley important thing to note is that the Kinetic energy of > the ball is only K = 5*10^-7 v^2 Joules (v in cm/sec)---this is TINY! > We see the magnetic fields are perfectly capable of supplying > 1000 x this much with only a small perturbation of the overall field. > Also, the enrgy associated with the vertical motion of the ball > is U = 0.001 h Joules (h in cm)---this is also modest compared > to the readily available field energy ~ 0.005 J. > > Thus---pay attention here, this is the punch line---the energies > of all the *observed motion* (motion along track, and vertical > elevation)---are all *SMALL* compared to readily available > field energy in the vicinity of the ball. And, the energy > going to the dissipation mechanisms is all small compared to this > out time of ~ 10 hours. > > Thus, I see no reason to expect that it is anything other > than converting the energy from local field nullification > into vertical and horizontal motion of the ball, and the > the dissipative effects don't really impact this for 10's > of hours. A SMOT running for 100-1000 hours would be needed > to counter even my *minimal mechanism above* (it would run > almost forever--10,000 hours---if it were instead somehow > demagnetizing the magnetics, which is not what I suggested!). > > (Or, as Bill B. said, make a SMOT with about 100 x the friction > so that running for 1 hour would be meaningful). > > I think the Mystery of the SMOT is begining to fade rapidly, though > it may remain difficult to pin down the precise, detailed physics of > the magnet-ball interaction. I encourage Greg to devote his > life to this, though, if he so chooses. You are truely, really unreal. Get a real life Barry. > -- > Barry Merriman > Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program > Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math > email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 00:13:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA00311; Fri, 30 May 1997 00:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970530000834.00b2cb60 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:08:36 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Closed SMOT doesn't perform lift Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"qfmVN2.0.m4.8qdZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I agree than in a closed SMOT you only should count mechanical & eddy losses, because in a closed SMOT the ball always returns to the same level. It is NOT lifted Higher and Higher !!! At 11:54 PM 5/29/97 -0500, John Logajan wrote: >Carefull about mixing and matching configurations. A closed loop configuration >always returns the ball to the initial starting height. However, a multi- >ramp unclosed configuration could (if sapping the magnetic strength) gobble >up your .0006J per pass. But you'd always have to hand carry the ball. >Once you allow it to "fall" back to the starting point, you are getting back >that .0006J potential energy as kinetic energy (minus friction losses.) > >So I think as Barry has done, you only should count friction type losses >in a closed loop system. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 00:49:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA10249; Thu, 29 May 1997 21:30:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:30:34 -0700 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 14:29:30 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs In-Reply-To: <338E32DE.6C4D math.ucla.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"FDkOR.0.dV2.aVbZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 29 May 1997, Barry Merriman wrote: [snip] > > I think the Mystery of the SMOT is begining to fade rapidly, though > it may remain difficult to pin down the precise, detailed physics of > the magnet-ball interaction. I encourage Greg to devote his > life to this, though, if he so chooses. > Barry, while you're doing great work getting all these numbers together, you're beginning to sound like an amauter theorist in love with own theory! Revenge for challenging me to come up an anti-gravity theory :-). Let's take Greg Watson at his claim. That the ball can be made rise 12 mm from it's starting height free of a magnetic field in a closed loop device. Greg says that 4 linked ramps can achieve this. That means each pass must take at least: E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.012 = 0.0006 Joules of energy from somewhere. Your local field cancellation would be exhasted in just a few passes. To consume the 4 Joules of energy (a very very rough calculation, I'll do better soon) in the entire magnetic field would take 6800 passes. From my single SMOT ramp I guess a pass could be completed in about 10 seconds. So a closed loop SMOT with one ball could run for 68000 seconds = 19 hours. More balls in a SMOT closed loop would of course consume the energy linearly with ball number. So my calculation is that running for about 24 hours would move us beyond "Magnetic Energy". By the way, I'm not sure Chris is wrong about Ferromagnets. Their lowest energy state may be magetized anyway! Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 00:52:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA03435; Fri, 30 May 1997 00:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338E883F.DF1 loc1.tandem.com> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:56:47 -0700 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs References: <338D2F83.369B microtronics.com.au> <338E32DE.6C4D@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5TFMl3.0.br.pPeZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry -- If I follow your argument correctly, you are saying that all energy to power the movement for 10 or more hours was supplied by inserting the ball in the magnetic field. Now, imagine it running for 10 (or thousands) of hours, until it comes to a stop (presumably in some dead spot where there is little or no magnetic field to exert enough force on the ball to get it restarted). At this point, all of the field nullification energy would have been used up (otherwise, why did it stop?). But to restart it, all you would have to do from this position is to give it a small amount of kinetic energy to get it up to normal speed. To run for the next 10 hours, this energy is all you get to use, not the field nullification energy (which is now gone). By your own calculations, this kinetic energy is tiny. And just common sense says that the energy of a small push could not overcome all friction for the next 10 hours. Another way of stating the argument is that the field energy cannot be more than the kinetic energy required to accelerate the ball from stopped to its normal speed at the "worst" location, and this amount of energy could not possibly power it for hours. Unless I misunderstand your theory, I do not see how it fits the facts. If the magnets are still at the same strength, there is no reason it could not be restarted with a small push. Greg has already stated that this is in fact the case. -- Bob Horst From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 01:17:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA04666; Fri, 30 May 1997 01:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338E8DC5.F8C loc1.tandem.com> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:20:21 -0700 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: MegaSMOT magnets Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tOm0U3.0.p81.vleZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, I was getting tired of waiting for my magnets to arrive from Edmund Scientific, so I decided to try the Tim Taylor school of SMOT design. I figured that what Greg really needed was MORE POWER, so I picked up a couple of magnetic tool holders. Each has a pair of foot long magnets separated by a square iron bar, and each is supposed to lift 150 lbs. No wimpy fridge magnets here. So I built a SMOT with two of these bad boys, and got ready to try it out. After prying my fingers from between the magnets, I fastened them more securely to the board. Then, after carefully pointing it away from the windows, I loaded the .5 inch ball bearing for a test fire. After a few adjustments, I was able to get the ball climb about 9mm, then drop to another U channel and roll away. But in tilting the other U channel up, the best I could do was get it to roll up to within 3mm of its original starting height. I did not polish the rails much or work on S-curves for the drop at the end, which would improve these results some. But it looks like there is no clear evidence of OU in this setup. Even with these big magnets, multiple ramps would be needed to have any chance of closing the loop. Oh well, back to waiting for the Edmund package... -- Bob From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 01:42:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA06623; Fri, 30 May 1997 01:36:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:36:55 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970530013720.00b2ce18 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:37:21 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: SMOT - Underestimating rolling friction. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JQUpd.0.Md1.c6fZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I agree that the rolling friction is underestimated. Please notice that IF the U channel was infinitely thin (knife edge) than we would only have rolling friction. With a U channel that is as wide as the ball, we would have only sliding friction. In a practical U channel we have both the sliding and rolling friction, and perhaps a pinching effect as well. I PERFORMED THE FOLLOWING EXPERIMENT: I have bought 2pcs of 12.7mm (0.5inch) wide channels, 914mm (12inch) long. I have configured them in a following way. \ / \ / 1 inch lift, 3 inch long \______________________/ 18 degrees In reality the inclined rams are not so steep. The middle U channel is 914mm long and is level within 0.1mm. The inclined U channels are angled apx. 18deg. [ie. 25.4mm (1inch) for their 76mm (3inch) length measured between the rolling surfaces]. Both U channels are inclined with an accuracy of 0.1mm in respect to the horizontal channel and each other. The joints between the channels are aligned to within 0.05mm A 25.4mm (1inch) bearing ball (FeCNi alloy) is released from the very top of the inclined right channel and falls down 25.4mm (1inch) along the 76mm (3inch) inclined channel . The ball oscillates back and fro and eventually comes to rest after 26 one-way trips through the 914mm horizontal-level channel. I have made 50 trial runs with all ball sizes. The results were repeatable to within 0.5 trips with the 25.4mm ball. The 19mm ball (.75inch) made only 18 one-way trips. (accurate to 0.5 trips) After polishing the aluminum U channel with a pencil graphite. The 25.4mm ball made 34 trips and the 19mm ball made 22 trips, however the accuracy after the graphite polishing went down to 1 trip for both ball sizes. For the sake of "control", I also have tried to release the balls from the left inclined channel. No perceivable differences were observed. Note: the balls are traveling some distance up and down the inclined U channels as well, less and less every oscillation. P.S. Now somebody please do the math of the frictional and air resistance losses. I am too tired for this tonight, but I bet they will be much higher than Barry's figures. Now what about the eddy braking ? At 12:49 AM 5/30/97 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >Barry, I'm actually with you in the Mundane Explanation camp (it's where I >live...). However, I feel that something is wrong with your analysis. >Perhaps you underestimated the rolling friction. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 01:51:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA06401; Fri, 30 May 1997 01:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970530014348.00b2ce18 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:43:49 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: SMOT - eddy current braking Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JGY7l.0.vZ1.MDfZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yes, eddy current braking is significant with a bulky bearing ball. A 25mm ball has very little electrical resistance in its volume. Don't underestimate this effect, a 1inch cylindrical NdFeB grade 39 permanent magnet takes 11 seconds to fall vertically inside a 3 foot-long vertical copper pipe (schd40 wall thickness). The eddy current losses are very likely greater than the frictional and air resistance losses. At 02:42 PM 5/30/97 +1000, Martin Sevior wrote: >Barry, > you clearly haven't studied a SMOT ramp in person. There is a lot >of energy dissipated through eddy currents as the ball goes through a ramp >quickly and a lot more when it falls off the end and hits the next rail. > >I've set my ramp up so the ball doesn't fall off the end and let the ball >run into it. On the first rapid pass through the system, the ball gains >about 10 mm in height, then rapidly falls to about 3 mm in about 2 >oscillations. Thus I estimate about > >E = 0.005*9.8*0.007 / 2 = 2*10**-4 Joules lost through Eddy currents >alone. Three orders of magnitude higher than your estimates. I think a >better test of energy consumed is "height gained free of magnetic field". >It's far easier to quantify and still conservative. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 01:54:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA08355; Fri, 30 May 1997 01:52:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:52:14 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970530015233.00b1525c mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:52:34 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: SMOT - Remanent ferromagnetic magnetization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rcpCL1.0.T22.zKfZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think Barry also proposed that the ball will get progressively magnetized, more and more until the whole SMOT effect dies. (re: remanent ferromagnetic magnetization) So, how much does the ball have to get magnetized before the magnetic field gradient between the SMOT magnets will no longer be able to pull the ball up ? To what degree can an iron or steel ball get magnetized anyway ? (not much apparently or we would be using iron (or steel) to make permanent magnets !) At 12:30 AM 5/30/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Dude.. > The local field nullification is totally reversed by the time >the ball is clear of the ramp! The above explaination would only be >valid if the ball kept moving continously toward the magnets. > >You've said that you agree that the magnets are not losing magnetic >strength. Therefore after a ball has approached, gone through and >left a ramp, the magnetic fields will be *identical* to the way they >were before the ball came. This is pretty straight forward. > > Scott Becker > skot compumedia.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 02:09:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA10101; Fri, 30 May 1997 02:07:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 02:07:02 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <338E5525.5A90 math.ucla.edu> References: <338D2F83.369B microtronics.com.au> <338E32DE.6C4D@math.ucla.edu> <338E4B69.33D1 skypoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:05:53 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs Resent-Message-ID: <"VSlyS2.0.lT2.rYfZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry - You haven't yet described the state of the machine when it stops according to the mechanism you've presented. Can you do that? I'm imagining a SMOT slowing down and stopping. Maybe the ball just starts to creep up a ramp and hangs in the middle after running fine for 100 hours. But what *state* do we find the magnets and ball in here that's any different than from the start? * Is the ball now magnetized and slightly bucking the fields trying to draw it up the next ramp? * Have the magnet arrays become temporarily disabled somehow? Will they refresh after a rest? * Would removing the ball and placing a new one in give us another 100 hours? * Would just moving the ball back to a starting flat spot (just a tiny little nudge) restart the machine for another 100 hour run? * Would it work if we take the ball off, remove the magnet arrays and wave them in the air for a couple of minutes (along with our arms), then reassemble and restart? You say the ball "kills" some field by storing its energy within itself(?), and then proceeds to spend it in a 100 hour run, and then it's used up. So - the magnets distributed around the track now have 'dead' fields? Are 'dead' magnetic fields a standard part of physics? I've never heard of this. Do they eventually reincarnate? If they do, why would they wait a long time - why not reincarnate instantly, at the moment energy is drawn out of the field by the ferromagnetic ball? Come on Barry, please explain in terms of the final state how magnets that were attracting a piece of steel with a given force a few minutes ago now attract the steel with less force - without saying that the magnets have become partially demagnetized. Your hypothesis sounds almost explanatory in a tangental way - there is indeed a lot of energy in the area there, and if some of it goes smoothly into the moving ball over the 100 hours, then - I suppose after 100 hours that energy will be found to be *missing* - lost as heat, sound, turbulence, etc. So the machine must be depleted somehow, and that depletion is something you should be able to described specifically. It should be defineable and detectable in ways besides just observing that the machine has stopped. But you haven't done that. I don't mean that you need to describe the details of the operative process completely right off, because we can assume that's complicated as you have alluded, and is presently unknown. You've just blackboxed the process and said here is a source of energy. That's ok for now. But I think you should be able to describe this depleted final stopped machine state somehow; why a pack of magnets that could attract a steel ball up a ramp a few minutes ago can now no longer do it. What changed? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 02:21:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA10844; Fri, 30 May 1997 02:19:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 02:19:18 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:17:12 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Closing the Hartman device loop Resent-Message-ID: <"7Lr7u.0.If2.LkfZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts Vorts, I got word things are getting interesting here, so have signed back on a bit to see what's happening. I hear CETI has a hot water heater? In looking at the Hartman patent, it occurred to me that the gravitational potential is only necessary to remove the ball from the magnetic field, and that all the motion is relative. This implies the ramp could be made flat and the magnets at the release end of the ramp raised into the air an amount required to simulate the same relative motion between the ramp magnets and ball when the ball simply fell off the end of the ramp. The problem then is keeping the ball on center and avoiding excessive acceleration. All these problems can be fixed simultaneously by closing the loop! To close the loop simply take the design for the flat ramp and warp it around into a vertical cylinder, with the magnetic fields vertical. Mount the "balls" on the rim of a horizontal non-conductive cylinder, say a plastic disk mounted on an axle with good bearings, called the armature. Let the "magnetic ramp" portion of the vertical cylinder (stator) comprize about 2/3 to 3/4 of the circumference of the ball path. Use at least 5 or 6 balls. In this way several balls are in the "ramp" simultaneously, and the pull of several balls, plus the entire wheel momentum, helps each ball exit the "ramp". The "exit" of the ramp would then be bent inwards toward the axel. If there is any significance to the ball rotation, that can be simulated by making the "balls" on the edge of the armature rotate. It does not appear to be necessary that the balls rotate nor that they be balls, but that they might be cyliners or some other shape. Making the balls rotate might be accomplished by making the armature two plastic disks and mounting the balls (or cylinders) between bearings in each of the two armature disks. The bearings would be spring loaded to push them outward radially. The balls (cylinders) could then roll around a raceway in the stator, held in place by the bearings and the outward spring load. To some extent, upon exit from the "ramp" section, the spring could permit the use of spring potential instead of gravitational potential to assist in exiting the "ramp" section. The raceway could consist of two metal rails, to complete the analogy - a rotational version of the ramp. If the ramp works, the rotational version should work as well. It is then a matter of discarding features thought to be unnecessary to see what is minimally required to make the thing work. Here is a partial cross section: Central Vertical Axle Stator X| |X | | | || | | | N || | | -------| ---| |-----------------------------BB | | | --||--| | | | ** || Raceway | | | || | | --||--| ---| |-----------------------------BB | | | -------| | | | S || | | | || X| |X | || BB - vertical shaft bearings for cylinders ** - cylinders equivalent to balls of Hartman US Patent 4,215,330 X - central shaft bearings If rolling is not required then, of course, great efficiencies can be obtained by using ferrite "balls" instead of ferrous "balls", non conductive magnets, and by eliminating the raceway. Lots of the above configuration could be stacked and at stagggered angles on the same central shaft to smooth out the motion. Since all the relationships of the Hartman ramp device are maintained in the drawing above, this device should be ou to the same extent the Hartman device is ou, which could be not at all. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 02:36:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA10268; Fri, 30 May 1997 02:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 02:31:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <338E3590.241C math.ucla.edu> References: <338DE458.93E6C61D verisoft.com.tr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:29:52 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Art Bell WANTS smot-x Resent-Message-ID: <"yDCr01.0.MW2.zvfZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Barry - > Take the ball > away and the system is like new. Aha. That's the answer I was looking for, I think. After the SMOT runs down, we have a phunny ball situation. It's not the magnets that go bad, it's the ball! What exactly is it about this 'used' ball that's different from a 'fresh' ball? Can I refresh depleted balls somehow? Do I just have to wait about two hours? I can't help but conclude you may mean that the ball has become magnetized. So we'll use ferrite spheres from now on? What, exactly, do you mean about the ball? > The point of qouting the numbers above is > not to suggest attempting such ultralong > runs---rather its to point out that the > "closed loop" runs of several hours quoted by > Greg are meaningless as far as > demonstrating anomalous functioning. I think they are a bit meaningless only as far as we haven't seen and replicated them yet for ourselves. They most certainly are, by any reasonable standard if true, meaningful in the demonstration of an anomaly! Geez Barry, even if you're right and the SMOTs do run down and their balls go weird somehow, you still have an anomaly here. Waving your arms and saying 'there's energy in there' does not an anomaly dispel! *How* that energy flows through these systems causing a ball to roll on and on over ramps is the anomaly that then needs to be explained. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 03:05:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA13476; Fri, 30 May 1997 03:00:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:00:02 -0700 Date: 30 May 97 05:57:53 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Another SMOT Phase 1 Message-ID: <970530095753_100433.1541_BHG68-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"FuCu-.0.QI3.YKgZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry (aka The Mussolini of Atlanta - he made the trains run on time) writes: > Are you sure? Did you double check? Yup. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 03:05:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA13487; Fri, 30 May 1997 03:00:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:00:04 -0700 Date: 30 May 97 05:57:56 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Another SMOT Phase 1 Message-ID: <970530095756_100433.1541_BHG68-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"_D3Lj2.0.fI3.ZKgZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick, > You got one-ramp rollaways on rails at the starting level, or on a > drop to the table top? The former, but I can't be certain that the start of the ramp wasn't slightly canted up from the table at that time. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 03:06:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA13582; Fri, 30 May 1997 03:00:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:00:45 -0700 Date: 30 May 97 05:58:00 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs Message-ID: <970530095800_100433.1541_BHG68-3 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"yDgoS3.0.8K3.CLgZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin, > By the way, I'm not sure Chris is wrong about Ferromagnets. Their > lowest energy state may be magetized anyway! It's a safe bet that I'm wrong. Just because you can make a thought experiment doesn't mean that is has any relevance to reality - that's another of the classic blunders. As for Barry's "the joke will be on Greg when it's shown to be normal physics" - or some such phrase - I agree with Rick that the explanation (if the system is fully reproducible, which is looking likely now) will be good physics. It has to be physics, because "if it wriggles, it's biology; if it smells it's chemistry; but if it is difficult to make it work then it's physics." And the thing *is* a bit tricky. But, if this is such standard physics, then that begs two questions: why, then, is such a device not in every school as a pretty demo of this standard physics; and why has the *absence* of any device like Greg's been used over many years to prove the correctness of standard phsyics? Of course, if it *were* true that the SMOT were getting its energy in some novel way, then a calorimeter would quickly establish that - except that nobody believes calorimetry anyway, so I'm not sure that would help much. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 03:27:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA12401; Fri, 30 May 1997 03:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:23:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Pond Evaporation Rate Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:22:36 +0000 Message-ID: <19970530102234.AAA17658 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"Dk5UH3.0.h13.uggZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: Help! I was trying to figure the daily evaporation rate from a pond. The only equation that I could find was: E = C*(Pw - Pa) inches/day, where Pw is the vapor pressure at the water surface and Pa is the vapor pressure of the water in the air. C is a coefficient depending on about every other variable there is. Any hydrology majors that can tackle this for 300 deg K, 25 inches Hg, and 5 mph wind speed? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 04:58:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA24279; Fri, 30 May 1997 04:52:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 04:52:41 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 07:52:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970530075205_-1498082019 emout11.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re EarthTech's Ragland cell Resent-Message-ID: <"tdOiE3.0.Dx5.8-hZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, You said that your Ragland triode cell was sealed. Has Ragland started working with sealed (closed) cells? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 05:33:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA20912; Fri, 30 May 1997 05:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 05:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: 30 May 97 08:25:40 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Free lunch time? Message-ID: <970530122540_100433.1541_BHG80-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"mw4Z42.0.g65.eViZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts, everyone, I was just thinking. As Hal Puthoff rightly points out, there is no free lunch in Ohm's Law - or any of the other laws either. But if Greg's field sims are correct, then it looks to me as though there is a free lunch available from arrays of permanent magnets. And he says he builds these things to the sims, and that they work like the sims say. Hmmm. Comments, anyone? Chris (Greg might soon be "a legend in his own lunchtime"?) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 06:09:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA24492; Fri, 30 May 1997 06:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 06:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338EC951.1FDF microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:04:25 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Tool Time Tim References: <338E8DC5.F8C loc1.tandem.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"R_s5M1.0.W-5.B0jZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bob Horst wrote: > > Well, I was getting tired of waiting for my magnets to arrive from > Edmund Scientific, so I decided to try the Tim Taylor school of SMOT > design. I figured that what Greg really needed was MORE POWER, Not so Tool Time Tim. Bedford Industry Magnets are not needed here. Design and an understanding of the effects are the keys. > so I > picked up a couple of magnetic tool holders. Each has a pair of foot > long magnets separated by a square iron bar, and each is supposed to > lift 150 lbs. No wimpy fridge magnets here. > > So I built a SMOT with two of these bad boys, and got ready to try it > out. After prying my fingers from between the magnets, I fastened them > more securely to the board. Then, after carefully pointing it away from > the windows, I loaded the .5 inch ball bearing for a test fire. It not the fire in the belly that important here, more mental effort please. > After a few adjustments, I was able to get the ball climb about 9mm, > then drop to another U channel and roll away. But in tilting the other > U channel up, the best I could do was get it to roll up to within 3mm of > its original starting height. I did not polish the rails much or work > on S-curves for the drop at the end, which would improve these results > some. I can get over 30mm with wimpy fridge magnets. Wimps win? > But it looks like there is no clear evidence of OU in this setup. Even > with these big magnets, multiple ramps would be needed to have any > chance of closing the loop. > > Oh well, back to waiting for the Edmund package... > > -- Bob Hi Bob, Good results from bad magnets. Your tool bar are like fridge magnets and have N and S facing magnets into the ramp. You will get some coupling to the ball, but most of the flux goes from one pole to the other. Keep building, Keep thinking! Stop watching Tool Time Tim! Hope this helps, Greg, From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 06:17:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA00892; Fri, 30 May 1997 06:11:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 06:11:26 -0700 Message-ID: <338ED188.6EAF microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:39:28 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: SMOT v1.02 - Linking questions] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"pRC821.0.sD.z7jZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from yarrina.connect.com.au (yarrina.connect.com.au [192.189.54.17]) by orca.microtronics.com.au (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA14397 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 22:35:32 +0930 (CST) Received: from mx2.eskimo.com (mx2.eskimo.com [204.122.16.49]) by yarrina.connect.com.au with ESMTP id XAA02100 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6 for ); Fri, 30 May 1997 23:05:30 +1000 (EST) Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA22283; Fri, 30 May 1997 05:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 05:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970530173355.212f4a7e ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: ksmith ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:46:11 -1100 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com From: Ken Smith Subject: Re: SMOT v1.02 - Linking questions Resent-Message-ID: <"oy4PQ2.0.2S5.XniZp" mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3470 X-Loop: freenrg-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request eskimo.com Hi All, Just an update and a few observations and not a few questions. First - what follows is not very scientific - since I am not qualified to spout science stuff. I am a tinkerer and watcher - not a number crunching rocket engineer. OK - I have got 6 ramps, four are carbon copies and two have minor differences. All lift, carry and drop my 22mm balls. I now use 9 magnets a side in a 3 * 3 array, but they are 38 * 10 * 4 ceramics and quite powerful. I use a magnetic side poled magnetic strip as backing and all my attachments are with hot glue. Only the outer edge magnet of the three in each block is glued to the mag strip - the other two are held by their own attraction and can be adjusted - more later on that. Observations 1 : The performance of a solitary ramp is different to that of a linked ramp. 2 : The sideways balance is almost impossible to get exactly right at the point of contruction, but sliding the inner two layers minutely fore and aft will make a big difference to the lateral balance and is a valid method of "centerline control". 3 : You need something to kick the ball forward on the "drop" - either a contoured ramp end (a la Greg) or a small piece of plastic lip or similar glued onto the ramp 1/2 ball radius below the ramp rolling edge. This converts the bounce to a forward shove to engage the next ramp. 4 : Ramps that will not disengage in isolation work well in sequence. This means that you can effectively get more lift out of ramps 2 ..3 ..4 etc than you can from ramp 1. 5 : Sideways balance is absolutely vital. I find moving the whole side assembly too coarse for accurate balance. But sliding a single magnet a fraction will achieve wonders. 6 : Very small variations in side magnet spacing makes a world of difference to the ramp's lifting ability. But the closer the sides are to the ball, the more touchy the side balance adjustment is (obvious really). 7 : I use a slightly curved end edge to my ramps. If the ball will just go there and hang - and not go to either side - I know it will disengage perfectly when linked. I have built a pretty little railway track of 3/16 copper pipe that will do the return journey for me, but the rub is I need 25mm of lift - 30 would be better - to do the return journey. Currently my best ramps give me a 7-9mm improvement in potential on the previous, but I need 10-12 mm to totally disengage so I am looking for 35-40mm of total lift. I have six working ramps, but two of them are real spastics and they get rebuilt tomorrow. If I can get all my ramps performing to equal the best I will get the lift I need tomorrow and then the railway lines are attached. Then we shall see. I cannot see how, as per Greg's contest, I can get progressive improvement from the ramps - all after No 1 seem to be equal. However there are still some aspects to linking that I don't really understand (at all). I have a distinct impression that the balls get warm in use. This is most probably from handling. However a cold ball from the box seems to work better than a warm one. I suspect this is nothing to get excited about and is probably a function of skin oils contaminating the surface and temperature induction from my hands. However it does seem strange. I can certainly not detect any residual magnetism on a ball bearing - even after prolonged use. All these questions will be answered soon though when I can get my six ramps working and avoid the handling problem. Anyone who still thinks this is a fluke should go and get professional advice. When you see the 22mm balls clacking merrily through the ramps and popping out of the end to freedom - with a significant potential improvement - let alone the kinetic extra, then you really have to wonder what is going on here..... Oh it's a flea bite in real terms, but that doesn't matter. I showed the wife the SMOT today (she was moaning as to why I hadn't cut the lawn). I showed her a six ramp lash up, but the exit was obviously well above the entry and there was a positive throw out on the last exit. Her first comment was - "That's not too clever - the magnets are doing the work." - Out of the mouth of babes ...... But I distinctly remember being told that permenant magnets cannot do real work. It defies some law or other . Now that is obviously not true. This I can live with - but what really worries me is that I am starting to wonder what else I was told, as an absolute truth, is also wrong... Ken Ken Smith (ksmith ihug.co.nz) http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~ksmith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 06:24:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA27281; Fri, 30 May 1997 06:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 06:18:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:17:21 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: small comets Resent-Message-ID: <"zhG3D.0.8g6.XEjZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Pictures of the small comets may be viewed at: http://pao.gsfc.nasa.gov/gsfc/newsroom/flash/flash.htm Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 07:42:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA09290; Fri, 30 May 1997 07:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 07:30:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705300920.ZM13271 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:20:39 -0500 In-Reply-To: Rick Monteverde "Re: Art Bell WANTS smot-x" (May 30, 4:25am) References: <338DE458.93E6C61D verisoft.com.tr> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT Ball Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"QAFaT1.0.TG2.yHkZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On May 30, 4:25am, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Aha. That's the answer I was looking for, I think. After the SMOT runs > down, we have a phunny ball situation. It's not the magnets that go bad, > it's the ball! A better answer was already provided by Epitaxy, "by using a [hollow] glass marble filled with powdered iron". Very resourceful solution IMHO. 8^) -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 09:34:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA04333; Fri, 30 May 1997 09:24:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:24:13 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC6CD9.07F1C740 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: hot SMOT Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:08:24 -0700 Encoding: 25 TEXT, 44 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"YqrbY.0.C31.fylZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Epitaxy wrote: >To: Dan Quickert >If you have the same kind of bearing ball that has not been heated yet, >compare the force it takes to separate the unheated ball VERSUS the heated >ball from THE SAME magnet. Also notice how much easier it is to dent the >heated ball with a hammer. > >Heating the ball however has a negative side effect on the friction >efficiency. Firstly because the smooth surface is oxidized and becomes >rough, secondly the mechanical harness decreases and that increases the >friction against the U channel. Your observed higher SMOT efficiency comes >from the good polishing job you did and the fact that the increased >"magnetic softness" outweighs the mechanical friction increase. > Hi Epitaxy, Right. I was aware of all that. Assumed it was common knowledge what the heating would do to the steel and its magnetic properties. Was trying to keep my message short and to the point :-). Dan begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(AD0`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0! `(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! 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\DXB.2)2,O@64C8 7 )<+[,S N M8&P"_P.G,(<&8`T"C1!"!O>/DW<&EZ)M$` M<"KQ!9$' <,@MP-@=6=H+"FA!:#_)$ ZP2.2!X 1L0,`.Q UT?\*P"Y@!!$% M 1E )= 'D3UB_R5S"X!!-C%J.)8S(#;P"X"S& `C@U4@0 (N8&PND=99"&$D M8&(1\'(C8"10#&AI/M P45--3U2_-Z(YU44`/=LM4R.29SO0O210< ;P! !& MD"3Q:D8`_R+S/0`]1"A3`- Q0B61(Y)[0D8L:"(N-"' (\ D<'3E0,(B)&!U M=#801J%"P_\_VD.G0D8SMA]_(($T-U&5W$AI'A8G-E&54D:A+H'^21Z0-H)6 M8" A)'$E-BZ0^D$$$'4'@"10*/%68B?12P1@`Z!K)@!W; F 9UTC<'=,!B:2 M).)W"&!L_2109"F0*8$CDQ 0%C ]4\\>0 0@3;<7D&]P(A$(D(IS+I!7)=%T M$VV\`4 `"#"P4LT>$VV\`1X`/0`!````!0```%)%.B ``````P`--/TW $``#8<6V\ ` end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 09:39:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA08905; Fri, 30 May 1997 09:32:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:32:09 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705300929.ZM13358 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:29:04 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Patents and Intellectual Property Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"P47Wu.0.VA2.-3mZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Not sure how accessible this site is, but definitely relevant to many discussions on vortex: http://www.ei.org/lectures/ The lecture, posted on May 19, gives comprehensive insight into the four major forms of intellectual property and how to establish rights in that property. These include patents, copyright, trade secrets and trademarks. Establishing and protecting intellectual property, patents for computer-related inventions and the new Provisional Patent Application procedure are among the hot topics that will be explained and examined, along with a look at Who Is An Inventor Under US Patent Law? -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 11:21:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA01053; Fri, 30 May 1997 11:15:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:15:39 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:13:31 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Closing the Hartman device loop Resent-Message-ID: <"AfoY41.0.IG.AbnZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A partial cross section: Central Vertical Axle Stator X| |X | | | || | | | N || | | -------| ---| |-----------------------------BB | | | --||--| | | | ** || Raceway | | | || | | --||--| ---| |-----------------------------BB | | | -------| | | | S || | | | || X| |X | || BB - vertical shaft bearings for cylinders ** - cylinders equivalent to balls of Hartman US Patent 4,215,330 X - central shaft bearings Earlier I wrote: "To close the loop simply take the design for the flat ramp and warp it around into a vertical cylinder, with the magnetic fields vertical. Mount the "balls" on the rim of a horizontal non-conductive cylinder, say a plastic disk mounted on an axle with good bearings, called the armature. Let the "magnetic ramp" portion of the vertical cylinder (stator) comprize about 2/3 to 3/4 of the circumference of the ball path. Use at least 5 or 6 balls. In this way several balls are in the "ramp" simultaneously, and the pull of several balls, plus the entire wheel momentum, helps each ball exit the "ramp". The "exit" of the ramp would then be bent inwards toward the axle." In thinking about this further, I can see that the "exit" magnet configuration could also be bent in a path radially outwards to achieve an identical ball/magnet relative motion to the flat ramp components, though that seems not as closely analagous to the original device as bending the magnetic field inward. The identical relative motion is achieved in the new polar coordinate system by replacing x with theta and the distance between the magnet and ball replaced by delta r. The ball travels in a fixed radius R, but the magnet postitions are adjusted to maintain a delta r eqaul to a correponding delta y difference in height of corresponding magnets an the ball. Another point is that individual ball accelerations are not accomodated in the above design. This can be done by replacing the armature disk with rods to the "balls" and then connecting the rods with springs. Thus, the rods could have relative motion like helicopter blades. This would permit acceleration in the ramp phase and deceleration in the escape phase, just like with a flat ramp design. Hopefully, going to such extremes is not necessary to achieve an analagous performance. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 12:49:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA21845; Fri, 30 May 1997 09:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:02:52 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:38:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970530103807_1889616378 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re : Smot Phase 2 Contest Resent-Message-ID: <"MFUi72.0.CE5.AblZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 30/05/1997 15:35:24 , you wrote : << I will give away a SMOT ramp kit to the first 2 people who can show 4 linked SMOT ramps with a final lift at least 2 times the original and a roll away. Photos required. >> Wonderfull Greg, a RMOD kit for the winner that is a good idea !! :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 13:14:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA22435; Fri, 30 May 1997 09:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:13:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705301413.JAA18183 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Ragland triode report Resent-Message-ID: <"j6iJJ2.0.hJ5.lelZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As of 0900 this AM: Ein = 3,242,000 joules Eout = 3,213,000 joules Eout/Ein: 0.991 present Pout/Pin ratio: 0.998 recombiner working perfectly. this is Day 5 of "high power" operation. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 13:53:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA31753; Fri, 30 May 1997 13:39:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:39:05 -0700 Message-ID: <338F4942.BF earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 14:40:21 -0700 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, 72240.1256@compuserve.com, 76570.2247@compuserve.com, kirk.shanahan srs.gov, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, bssimon@helix.ucsd.edu, dennis wazoo.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, ine@padrak.com, little@eden.com, jonesse astro.byu.edu, g-miley@uiuc.edu, wireless@rmii.com, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, jlogajan@skypoint.com, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, kennel@nhelab.iae.or.jp, design73 aol.com, blue@pilot.nsu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, david italy.it.earthlink.net, k@suba.com, shellied@sage.dri.edu, hheffner corecom.net, zetts@ml.wpafb.af.mil, rmills blacklightpower.com, wrgood@earthlink.net Subject: Seventh Miley Critique Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MGgvC3.0.3m7.fhpZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Friday, May 30, 1997 Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 rmforall earthlink.net Seventh Miley Critique On May 23, I found in "Infinite Energy" magazine # 12, a five-page article, "Energy Gain and Nuclear Transmutation By Low-Energy p- or d- Reactions in Metal Lattices," by Heinrich Hora and J.C. Kelly (School of Physics, U. of New South Wales, Sydney 2052, Australia) and G.H. Miley (Fusion Studies Lab, U. of Illinois, Urbana, Ill. 61801, USA). I will refer to this paper as Energy Gain. The main reference is #9: G.H. Miley, G. Marne, M.J. Williams, J.A. Patterson, J. Nix, C. Cravens, and H. Hora, Progress in New Hydrogen Energy, M. Okamoto, Ed., (New Energy and Industrial Technology, Tokyo, 1997), p. 629. I don't have this reference. Could someone send me a zerox? So, this critique will focus briefly upon disturbing aspects of the Energy Gain article, which should, after all, be an important, impeccable showcase of views, claims, and evidence. Figure 2: "Measured production rate density of elements depending on the atomic number Z in the palladium layers covering plastic spheres (beads) after being located for several hours between the electrodes electrolyzing a water solution (9). The concentrations of the created elements were measured with secondary ion mass spectrometry (SIMS) and other methods where the beads did not show these elements before the electrolysis. The measured elements had deviations from the natural isotope concentration by up to 15 % in agreement with fundamentally different experiments." The text comments: "The experiments (repeated several times) (9) used about 1mm diameter glass or plastic spheres (beads) covered with about 100 nm nickel or palladium or multilayers of these metals...After a two hour loading period of the metal layers with protons, where no significant heat was produced, a considerable excess heat production was measured, which can be related to nuclear reactions...it was measured that e.g. a considerable amount (up to 50%) of the nickel was transmutted into iron and other elements. The resulting elements had isotope ratios which were different from the natural ratio...The result of Fig. 2 is from beads with a palladium layer...Taking the results of 6 runs as shown in Fig. 2 (see Fig. [No figure number was given here.] of Ref. 9)...the observation that the transmutation of a considerable percentage of the atoms has occurred within days and weeks in agreement with the observations..." Fig. 2 shows Production rate in Atoms per second-cc with a scale from 10E12 to 10E18, with 23 elements: C, O, Mg, Si, Al, P [This point seems to me to be mislabeled as a second Si point.] , Cl, Ti, V, Cr, Fe, Co, Cu, Zn, Se, Sr, Zr, Ag, Cd, Sn, Te, Au, Pb. What seems to me to be a rather arbitrary four-peak curve is drawn through these points: for instance, a peak is indicated where Fe, Co, Cu, and Zn stand almost in a straight line across a range of ~500. Similarly, several what I judged to be misleading curves were offered in Miley's Second Preprint, summarizing experimental runs with six kinds of beads. It seemed natural to then check out the various graphs in Second Preprint. On page 10, Figure 4, Production Rate for palladium Run #11, I found the same collection of data points and the same added curve. Some of the data points are listed as numbers in Table 3 on page 6: Yield for NAA Elements, in which nine elements are listed for all six kinds of beads, but only as the difference between before and after, without the before and after data being listed. There are 45 postive values, and, surprisingly, 4 negative values. The palladium values include a substantial midrange value for Ni production. But Ni is not included on either Fig. 4 in Second Preprint or in Fig. 2 of Energy Gain, where it would lie between Cu and Zn at the top of the "second" peak and thus tend to substantiate the reality of that peak. Why this omission of a very intiguing data point? But Ni is included for Run # 11 in Figure 2 of Second Preprint, which shows Production Rate for all six kinds of beads. These graphs have to be doubled in scale via zerox, and studied very carefully, but the identity of Run # 11 can be indubitably established. For Run # 11, this graph excludes O (Z=8) and adds Mn (Z=25) and Mo (Z=42), I surmise, from inspecting the magnified graph carefully. However, in the same paper, Figure 4 does not include Mn, Mo, and, as I already mentioned, Ni (Z=28), and the point for O is unclear. Energy Gain omits Ni and Mo in its Fig. 2, and mislablels P (Z=15) as a second Si point. Why these omissions of data points? Energy Gain, as quoted above, seems to clearly state that six runs were summarized, by averaging the data, I suppose, to produce the points in Fig. 2. But the discussion of the same data in Second Preprint seems to treat the data as being from a single run. Why this inconsistency? About Run # 11, Second Preprint says: "Loading of hydrogen into the thin-film...requiring several hours...Run times of several weeks were typical...211 hours...0.1--0.9 W [These are exactly the same integer values as for three other runs] ...electrical input power of approximately 0.06W...2000 A [equals 200 pm]...The PS/P (palladium) core experiments [Notice the plural. This may be a hint that the data for Run # 11 is an average of a number of runs.] (Fig. 4) also show a "four-peak" behavior, but, unlike the corresponding Ni runs, the amplitudes of the peaks decrease progressively in going to high-Z." To me it seems reasonable to assert that claims about peaks in the distribution of elements are meaningless, when no measurements of amounts, identities, and isotopic abundances were made of the many elements that might escape as product gases, be dissolved in the electrolyte, collected as particles in the system filter, or deposited in the system as gunk. Likewise, how can a claim be made that "up to 50 %" of a nickel layer is transmutted, when measurements have only been made on selected microspots on a few selected sample beads? First Preprint gives before and after data from NAA on different sets of 10 nickel film beads, out of 1,000 used, described in Second Preprint as Run # 8. As I pointed out in my various Critiques, these after/before ratios do not indicate transmutation or isotopic anomalies, beyond the 15 % NAA measurement error. A summary of this point is added as an Addidum to this Critique. Would Miley make before and after tabular data freely available for all reported runs? SIMS measurements have to be made on micron-size spots on individual beads. Usually a scanning electron microscope image is also produced that shows the measurement site at a number of scales, and allows interesting sites to be selected for measurement. Other workers with similar experiments and results, such as Mizuno, Ohmori, and Dash, have published many such images of specific reaction sites that are claimed to have atypical element and isotopic abundances. Does Miley have such corroborative evidence? Would he make such information freely available? In Second Preprint, Figure 5: "Summary of isotope shifts for all runs as measured by SIMS", gives Difference in % (SIMS - Natural) against Mass Number (A). Even doubled in scale, I can establish little about Run # 11. A point labeled Te may be from Run # 11, and is at about +55 %. For all six types of beads, dozens of values outside + or - 15 % are plotted. Energy Gain seems to have reduced the claim to "up to 15 %". Why? If a substantial fraction of the palladium or nickel in a microspot was undergoing nuclear transmutations, wouldn't the resulting isotopic anomalies in that spot logically be many-fold for the rarer elements? How uniform or not are the SIMS "before" measurments on interesting sites on unused beads? How much hydrogen is already absorbed into the unused metal film? What if this hydrogen is somehow already largely concentrated into microregions of very high loading? How might we test the possibility that in the SIMS measurement process the 16 kv O ions that vaporize the measured microspots also separate isotopes or even produce nuclear transmutations? What about the possibility that electrolysis may occur partly as dense threads of current onto atypical microspots on the film, immediately making them even more atypical, and with intense electric and magnetic fields and subtle quantum effects, producing isotopic separations and even nuclear transmutations? Aren't the tantalizing phenomena so complex, and so unknown, as to make all theorizing largely misleading and irrelevant? What must we conclude about the credibility of "Infinite Energy" magazine, when radical reports are published without reasonable scrutiny either prior or post publication? Addidum: December 21, 1996 Dear Dr. Douglas Morrison, I was delighted to find on Vortex-L Jed Rothwell's forwarded messages from George Miley's answers to criticisms. Open and vigorous critical debate is the best honor we can render to important and unexpected research. In case you haven't seen my four critiques, I forwarded them to you. I think they're fairly unreadable, if you're not motivated enough to compare them with Miley's two preprints yourself, line by line, figure by figure. Oh well! Do you think my language was too "caustic"? I'm busy moving this weekend, but am getting ready to write a Fifth Miley Critique, pointing out more surprising errors in his preprints. I regret that I am finding some errors in the three reports of Mizuno's well-known transmutation claims, published in detail in Infinite Energy and in Journal of New Energy, and will soon write a Mizuno Critique. I believe that if a report itself is not almost totally impeccable, in terms of its clarity of language and visual design, free of proofreading errors, replete with basic data that allows the reader to easily and comprehensively double-check the claimed chains of data analysis, and carefully and thoroughly discussing any measurement and analysis problems, then critics have a duty to be corresponding skeptical about the entire body of research by that worker. You are quite right in emphasizing Feynman's practice of always being his own worst, and first, critic. Since Miley's responses to criticism have again and again mentioned that he has focused on Cu and Ag results as some of his clearest evidence for transmutations, I will take the space here to reiterate my after/before ratios in my first Miley Critique, calculated from his own data in Table 3 in his First Preprint, based on NAA analysis, given accuracy by him of +- 15 %: Isotope Atoms per Atoms per After/Before Ratio fresh beads reacted beads 29 Cu-63 3.57E+15 116.E+15 32.5 29 Cu-65 1.54E+15 49.7E+15 32.3 47 Ag-107 7.32E+15 76.1E+15 10.4 47 Ag-109 6.68E+15 61.4E+15 9.2 The remarkaby close agreement of these two pairs of values, which are for NAA analysis of different 10-bead samples, before and after, from runs using 1,000 beads each, indicates a simple multiplication of the initial number of atoms of the two elements, i.e., no isotopic shift effect, within the +- 15 % claimed NAA accuracy, hence, no evidence for transmutations. Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 14:09:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA22162; Fri, 30 May 1997 09:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:17:06 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:43:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970530104326_-1698937984 emout10.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: BLP Resent-Message-ID: <"JL6391.0.sH5.IdlZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrol has commented that Mills claims that his hydrinos form the dark matter that fills the universe. It is generally excepted that the dark matter in the universe is non-baryonic. Ordininary matter is baryonic. Mills just broke another conservation law. The conservation of baryon number. His theroy has broken every conservation law in the book. Again he may have a good technology but his theory is very bad. Frank Znidarsic fznidarsic aol.com 481 Boyer St. http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html Johnstown, Pa. 15906 Automatic links: Home_Page Send_E-mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 14:15:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA06496; Fri, 30 May 1997 13:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:57:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970530095756_100433.1541_BHG68-2 CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:55:16 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Another SMOT Phase 1 Resent-Message-ID: <"f_l0t2.0.Mb1.pypZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris - [me] << You got one-ramp rollaways on rails at the << starting level, or on a drop to the table top? [you] > The former, but I can't be certain that the > start of the ramp wasn't slightly canted up > from the table at that time. That's pretty impressive, even if there was a slight drop between starting position and ending position. A small amount of table tilt probably wouldn't count for more than a fraction of a millimeter over the length of a SMOT ramp. What is the height of your rail magnets? How big is the ball you used to get this? Were you using the straight Watson arrays or Blanton's stepped arrays? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 14:52:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA23063; Fri, 30 May 1997 09:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:52:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705301352.IAA16106 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Re EarthTech's Ragland cell Resent-Message-ID: <"MIlgs1.0.8N5.7flZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:52 5/30/97 -0400, Tom S wrote: >You said that your Ragland triode cell was sealed. Has Ragland started >working with sealed (closed) cells? I don't think so. He never mentioned closed cells. The cell he got such good (5:1) results from was open and it ran for months. He finally quit running it because the D2O bill was getting up there $$$. I went with a close cell because: 1. I had the proven recombiner on hand. 2. It makes the calorimetry easier and cleaner not to have to add D2O periodically or worry about recombination in the cell. 3. I can't see how it could possibly affect the reaction we are investigating. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 14:57:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA17470; Fri, 30 May 1997 14:53:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 14:53:17 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970530122540_100433.1541_BHG80-1 CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:51:55 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Free lunch time? Resent-Message-ID: <"CvRR41.0.pG4.CnqZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris - > And he says he builds these things to the > sims, and that they work like the sims say. > > Hmmm. Comments, anyone? The ball is dipping something out of the magnetic fields and using it to go round and round. What's getting dipped? Magnets confuse me. So do electrostatics, but not quite as badly. I like to look there for conceptual clarity, if that's possible. There are many similarities between a magnetic field model and an electrostatic field model. Of course, there are huge differences too. But here's a question: is there a corresponding 'blue hole' between the ends a pair of electrically charged rails (with their charges generally immobilized as much as possible) arranged in a manner similar to Greg's SMOT ramps? IOW, could a SMOT be constructed with *electrets* instead of magnets? John Schnurer, are you listening? I've had the following strange notion for years now. Seems to me if you dip a flat plate capacitor with its leads connected together down to a point near a charged source (charges on the source again as immobile as possible), then open the leads before moving the cap back away to the starting point, you would have a charged capacitor for free due to electrostatic induction. But of course there's a penalty: due to induced charge distribution on both dielectrics and conductors, the cap is attracted towards the source on the way in, and pulled on during the trip out. If you didn't open the leads, the sum of the forces during the trip in and back should balance out (ignoring friction, etc.), and could therefore be negated for the round trip by a spring. But when you open the leads for the journey outward, you have a difference in the distribution of charge on the plates, and the force on the cap during the outward trip isn't quite the same. But a very thin cap would maintain a very slight redistribution of the charges in relation to the amount of energy it could carry, although here's where my math fails - I've never been able to calculate the difference here, and thus find if the energy in the cap's charge is greater than the energy required to draw the cap back from the source surface. But notice the way the situation tends: wider cap spacing stores less energy but has worse (wider) charge distribution. Closer (thinner) cap plates store *more* energy but have *shallower* charge distribution (presumably closer to the situation of connected leads and therefore better). Summing induced charge isn't an easy calculation. The conventional assumption would of course be that it all comes out even or less. But the conventional assumption has also been that Greg's SMOT and certainly his RMOD are not possible. Do you see the parallels between a SMOT and the capacitor question above? The cap "kills" field just as Barry describes, and then carries its energy away - perhaps with some 'free' margin. I suppose the charges on the source then have to borrow from the you-know-what to prevent themselves from dropping to some forbidden quantum state. Perhaps it's the same with charges that spin and put their energy into magnetic fields. I don't know if lunch is being served yet, but it sure smells like something's cooking. I dearly hope it's not just our brains! Comments anyone? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 14:59:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA14557; Fri, 30 May 1997 14:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 14:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: 30 May 97 17:39:03 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Another SMOT Phase 1 Message-ID: <970530213903_100433.1541_BHG52-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"CyL7N1.0.LZ3.KcqZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick, > A small amount of table tilt probably wouldn't count for more > than a fraction of a millimeter over the length of a SMOT ramp. No, it could easily have been more. > What is the height of your rail magnets? I was using 24*12*2mm plated NIB's, but you know what a sod they are. So today I've switched to 19*50*6mm (poles on large faces), and am using four (two x two) per magnet array, backed by 20*100*5mm iron bar. The ball is about 13mm, as is the outer width of the aluminium U-track. > Were you using the straight Watson arrays or Blanton's stepped > arrays? Straight. But in starting to link ramps, it seems to me a bit awkward; the magnet arrays from ramp 1 clash with those for ramp 2. I suppose I'll have to read up on how that is done. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 15:16:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA18698; Fri, 30 May 1997 15:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:06:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9705300920.ZM13271 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> References: Rick Monteverde "Re: Art Bell WANTS smot-x" (May 30 <338DE458.93E6C61D verisoft.com.tr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:04:11 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: SMOT Ball Resent-Message-ID: <"Casgb3.0.yZ4.EzqZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John - > A better answer was already provided by > Epitaxy, "by using a [hollow] glass marble > filled with powdered iron". Very > resourceful solution IMHO. 8^) Yes it is. Notice also the better performance claimed for softer or heat treated balls. Obvious pattern. Did you see the 'capacitor' arm-waving job I posted in answer to Chris? Do you suppose there might be an analogy between the advantage of softer iron (tending towards particles or ferrites) and that of trying to steal more charge with less back-drag by using thinner caps? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 15:16:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA21459; Fri, 30 May 1997 15:08:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:08:54 -0700 Date: 30 May 97 18:07:26 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: No apparent excess momentum Message-ID: <970530220726_72240.1256_EHB107-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"5EAy6.0.AF5.q_qZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I visited Terry Blanton and his one-ramp SMOT machine. Then I built one similar to his, using as many parts in common as I could find. I spent the last few hours learning to use it, and testing for excess momentum. Blanton reported: At first the exit point was equal to the entrance point in elevation. The ball started from a stopped position and left the exit with significant momentum. I then elevated the exit end of the assembly (using more tiles) and could get the ball to exit the arrangement up to an angle of approximately 20 degrees with remaining momentum. I have not been able to measure any apparent excess momentum. Here is a brief description of the parts I used: Track: 1 foot three sided architect's ruler, with the apex held steady by tiles and, in my case, with modeling clay for stability. Please note these rules have a groove down each face, which makes an ideal runway for the ball. Magnets: Radio Shack SKU # 64-1879. 2.5 cm x 1.8 cm x 0.5 cm. I am not sure if Blanton's are exactly the same size as mine, although the SKU number is the same. Steel ball: 8.5 gram 0.5 inch diameter ball bearing. (One ball is ~9 grams, 4 together are 34 grams.) Magnets are taped to the side of two 11 cm square tiles. I used strapping tape and modeling clay behind the magnets to hold them in place. The tiles are placed at either side of the ruler. Instead of making two bars of equal magnetic strength, and holding them at an angle to the runway, Blanton chose to build an increasing array of magnets. That is, when the ball first enters the run, it is between two magnets, N and S pole. Then, 2.5 centimeters down the track, there are two magnets on either side. Then three, then four. It looks like this, where "ttttttt" is the track, "mmm" is one magnet, and "C" is a blob of clay behind the magnet: C C mmmm C mmmm mmmm C mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm ttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm C mmmm mmmm mmmm C mmmm mmmm C mmmm C Blanton did not have enough magnets for this. He used: 1,2,2,3 on one side of the track, and 1,1,2,3 on the other (slightly unbalanced). I tried this arrangement, and I also tried the standard array of magnets: mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm . . . held at an angle to the track. Unless the tiles and magnet array are the same distance away from the track on both sides, to within a few millimeters, the ball hops out and sticks to one side or the other. It is fairly easy to adjust the tile, ruler and magnet array to prevent this. As noted here by others, the last magnet must protrude about a centimeter beyond the end of the ruler or the ball will not fall off. The ball is "sucked into" the array about a centimeter in front of the first magnet. Unlike Blanton, I have not been able to draw the ball uphill against any significant gradient. I do not know why this is so. Perhaps the magnets are different. I found that I am not able to measure the gradient or the exit height of the ball to within 5 millimeters. I could not measure these at Blanton's office or at my office, with these setups. It isn't clear whether one end of the ruler is flat against the table, or how high up the other end is. To do this properly, We would need a more stable, solid, measurable mounting, and a micrometer. Based on what I saw, I do not think Blanton can claim he is sure the ball rolled away at a higher elevation than the starting position. He may have better rulers and a more stable set-up in his house, but the set-up at the office was too crude to make these measurements. Since I could not draw the ball up any significant gradient, I decided to start by looking for excess momentum in level runs, with various different arrangements of the magnets. With the "1,2,3,4" arrangement shown above, the ball sometimes rolls away after it plunges off the end, but sometimes it rolls back. It bounced around considerably after falling 15 mm from the track to the desk. I dampened the bouncing and reduced the distance it moved by spreading a Kleenex tissue under the end of the track. When the rolls back, it quickly attaches to the magnet, so you cannot draw any conclusions from those runs. Taking only the runs where it moves away from the ruler, the point it hits and the final resting point appear to be random. Different configurations of magnets do not make a significant difference. With an array of 4, 3, 2, 1 - with the weakest strength at the end of the ruler - the bearing never rolls off at all, but with other arrangements it hops off the end. Where it goes after it hops off I cannot be measure with enough accuracy to draw any conclusions. I do not think it goes any farther with one arrangement than any other, so in my judgement there is no significant excess momentum. By the standards of ordinary physics, since there is no apparent excess momentum, there is no excess energy, so the one-ramp does not appear to be doing anything. However, if this thing works at all I suppose it must be in a zone somewhere beyond ordinary physics, so I hesitate to draw any conclusions. Chris points out something about the simulations posted here, which are based on standard physics as expressed in an off-the-shelf modeling program. He says they show that with the gradient and magnet arrangement the ball is "tricked" into forever thinking there is a more powerful magnet ahead of it. That's what standard physics seems to indicate. Therefore, the ball keeps going and going, and if the track leads into a circle it should go forever. This in itself does not say anything about momentum, excess or otherwise. So maybe we have movement without momentum?!? The issue is way over my head, I am sure. In any case, I think I will need mensuration and multiple, linked ramps before I can draw any conclusion. Alternatively, I will need a closed loop system. That, of course, would settle the issue instantly, without any mensuration. Contrary to Merriman, I think it would settle the issue: it would prove that we have an incredible anomaly, completely unknown to present-day science. Contrary to what he says, I do not think there is any way to "get energy" out of a magnet into a steel ball. And it there *is* any way to store such gigantic levels of energy in a small steel ball, this invention could be worth hundreds of millions of dollars, in critical small energy applications like rechargeable pacemaker batteries. Merriman's hypothesis confuses me. He now seems to indicate that even when you perform this miraculous transfer of energy (heretofore never observed in all history), it somehow does not deplete the magnetism. Then where on earth could it come from?!? Some component has to change. The final state has to be different than the starting state. As Chris points out, for 150 years the fact that no magnetic machine has ever been observed to keep moving through even *one* revolution has been cited over and over again as proof of the conservation of energy. It is proof that you cannot get energy out of a magnet, except the energy you store up by drawing the bead some distance away, as with a spring. Now we have a report that a machine has gone through thousands of revolutions, over a period of days. Yet Merriman says this is all part of standard physics. It is a boring result which proves nothing and will provoke only yawns if demonstrated in the halls of MIT the UCSD. If that is true, I know nothing about physics! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 15:22:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA23722; Fri, 30 May 1997 15:18:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:18:53 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970530213903_100433.1541_BHG52-1 CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:17:40 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Another SMOT Phase 1 Resent-Message-ID: <"D9QDN3.0.Zo5.C9rZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris - > I've switched to 19*50*6mm (poles on large faces) [snip] > The ball is about 13mm Right off I'd say your magnets are too wide for the ball. Same problem here. Single ramps work well, but linking doesn't. I'm waiting for a shipment of small magnets to arrive. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 15:40:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA22210; Fri, 30 May 1997 15:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: 30 May 97 18:20:08 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Revised ASCII schematic Message-ID: <970530222007_72240.1256_EHB91-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"x-Ciz.0.uQ5.CDrZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex My crude schematic got changed by WordPerfect. It is supposed to look like this: "ttttttt" = track "mmm" = one magnet "C" = blob of clay behind the magnet arrays C C mmmm C mmmm mmmm C mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm ttttttttttttttttttttttttttt mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm C mmmm mmmm mmmm C mmmm mmmm C mmmm C Note the track "ttttt" ends before the magnet array. Plus, I left out a word. I meant to say I need *better* mensuration. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 15:47:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA29877; Fri, 30 May 1997 15:39:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:39:59 -0700 From: "John Steck" Message-Id: <9705301733.ZM16221 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:33:27 -0500 In-Reply-To: Rick Monteverde "Re: SMOT Ball" (May 30, 5:01pm) X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT Ball Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"dgbTW2.0.TI7.zSrZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On May 30, 5:01pm, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Did you see the 'capacitor' arm-waving job I posted in answer to Chris? Yes and no. I've been skimming the SMOT activity, but not extensively. I may have inadvertently glossed over that message. My apologies. Time constraints have forced me to watch sparingly from the sidelines. 8^( > Do you suppose there might be an analogy between the advantage of softer iron > (tending towards particles or ferrites) and that of trying to steal more > charge with less back-drag by using thinner caps? Huh? Sorry if I am overly thick right now, it's been a very long week for me. Can you re-phrase your question? I don't understand what you're asking me. Nice to see vortex back to the nitty-gritty again. 8^) -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 16:03:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA28381; Fri, 30 May 1997 15:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338F5ACB.20E1 math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:55:07 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: No apparent excess momentum References: <970530220726_72240.1256_EHB107-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"D0GyM.0.Nx6.1irZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Contrary to what [Merriman] says, I do not > think there is any way to "get energy" out of a magnet into a > steel ball. Try this: Put magnet on table, fixed in place. Place steel ball a few cm away at rest. Steel ball will roll towards magnet, thus gaining kinetic energy. Energy is now in the steel ball, and it came from the magnetic field (not the magnet material per se). This is the type of mechanism I am talking about. > He now seems to indicate that even when you > perform this miraculous transfer of energy > (heretofore never observed in all history), So you are saying this is the first time in history a magnet has pulled a steel object towards it? >it somehow does not deplete the magnetism. Tell me: is the magnet material itself "depleted" when it attracts another object? No---but some of the field is. Jed, the mechanism I was suggesting is as plain as day. Whether it really describes the behavior of this particular class of device is open to debate----since the behavior of this device is not yet very well characterized. > It is proof that you cannot get energy out of a > magnet, Whoever said that? No physicist, I would think. There are many ways to get extraxt the energy that is stored in a magnetic field, depending on the nature of the material used to generate the field. > except the energy you store up by drawing the > bead some distance away, as with a spring. And why is this "except"? How do you know it is not this energy which powers the device, for e.g.? Depends on construction. I could certainly design a device that would make many many revolutions using only the above energy, if I use this energy to launch the ball into a racetrack, for example. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 16:25:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA01121; Fri, 30 May 1997 16:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970530190749.006ce9e4 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:07:53 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: No apparent excess momentum Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zCLB31.0.KH.HxrZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:55 PM 5/30/97 -0700, Barry wrote, correcting Jed regarding some of the motive effects of magnetized materials,: >Tell me: is the magnet material itself "depleted" when it >attracts another object? No---but some of the field is. No, it need not necessarily change (unless the ball hits and breaks up some domains ;-)X The magnetic energy in the field is 1/2 mu H2 which must be volume integrated of course The force arises because the mu(ball) >> mu(free space) therefore: force = -d/dx(1/2 mu H2) or use the maxwell stress tensor which is easier, and more elegant. The net energy of the system falls because the high-mu material fills the high magnetic field intensity volume. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 16:30:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA09300; Fri, 30 May 1997 16:23:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:23:53 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC6D15.DB0A5700 ristra.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: No apparent excess momentum Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:23:48 -0700 Encoding: 24 TEXT, 45 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"BV3aW3.0.9H2.86sZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: [snip] >And why is this "except"? How do you know it is not >this energy which powers the device, for e.g.? Depends on >construction. > >I could certainly design a device that would >make many many revolutions using only the above energy, if >I use this energy to launch the ball into a racetrack, for example. Far out! Let's see that design, build it and post its details and we'll check it out. Meanwhile, why don't you build yourself one of Greg's design and look at it, and see how it actually operates. You might then be in a better position to accurately describe how it works. Your explanations are reasonable for the configurations you describe, but so far they do not fit the physical configuration of the devices we're actually using. Make one yourself - it's extremely simple - *then* describe it to us, please! Dan Quickert No Credentials Whatsoever begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C$7`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0! `(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! M. $````"`?8/`0````0````````",#,!!( !`" ```!213H@3F\@87!P87)E M;G0 97AC97-S(&UO;65N='5M`&8+`06 `P`.````S0<%`!X`$ `7`# `!0!3 M`0$ @ ,`#@```,T'!0`>`! `#P`6``4`,0$!"8 !`"$````Q,D9!04-#,3,P M1#E$,#$Q0C`!X,`0````4` M``!33510`````!X`'PP!````%P```&1E<75I8VME`` 0`0```&4```!"05)264U%4E))34%.5U)/ M5$4Z4TY)4$%.1%=(64E35$A)4R)%6$-%4%0B/TA/5T1/64]52TY/5TE425-. M3U142$E314Y%4D=95TA)0TA03U=%4E-42$5$159)0T4L1D]214<_``````(! M"1 !````G ,``)H#``"C!@``3%I&=>?8+-G_``H!#P(5`J0#Y 7K`H,`4!,# M5 (`8V *P'-E=.XR!@`&PP*#,@/&!Q,"@T8S`\4"`'!R<1(B8 0`( 1T:"2Q(F5X8V5!!3 B M/R!(;P? 9(AO('D(8"!K;B7A_FD%0"2Q)I %0""W(NL=X;\CIR*O([8DXPGP M!)!G'F#E)'!I$; <"7@!) DPA)E)@!E=BP`92P@0P(0!LLY231805 =SH"-B\W/_8&^'+C!*4!5 MLD&C_R9"7S90H 5 8C M8 K!++%_5<(G(V-@7&,L,"2 `)!C_P= M8RQ7HBRX!"!2X6'16K>[0?-;P$U 4E=R5N\@"02W)K MP?HJ7((J7RAF B8@0? M4#-+@6(@92$@OPN5,3;K31\=B$0#D5%0T$K .F'U M;X5.)B!#&4$)\#+ !T#]!"!7/ %B,"T`!) ??&^%!1AA`'<@```#`! 0```` M``,`$1 `````0 `',("LX5A/;;P!0 `(,("LX5A/;;P!' `]``$````%```` 24D4Z( `````#``TT_3<``%6. ` end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 16:30:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA09565; Fri, 30 May 1997 16:24:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:24:45 -0700 Message-ID: <338F6149.7D97 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:52:49 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Smot Testing and Mods Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"X70N3.0.FL2.x6sZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Hi All, Well it is good to see so much real work and thought being done. One word of caution. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE build your first two SMOT ramps like the plans I have provided. They work and will link. I guarantee it! There are MANY design choices and variables I had to go through to get the device to work. Your first SMOT ramp is NOT the place or time for you to do this. When you get the ramps to link and you see for yourself that they work, THEN go and do it any way you want. Greg Watson's SMOT Rules of Testing and Development : 1) Duplicate MY design. 2) Test MY design. 3) Report on how My design works. 4) Build YOUR design. 5) Report on how YOUR design works. Please guys, do it this way. Really its the only way to progress the work. Anything else will lead to claims, cross claims and we will all be drawn off the point. And the point is : BUILD SMOT RAMPS AS PER MY DESIGN AND VERIFY THEY WORK AS CLAIMED. Best Regards and Good Building, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 16:44:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA17154; Fri, 30 May 1997 16:41:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:41:45 -0700 Message-ID: <338F6546.7786 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:09:50 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Can magnets do work? References: <338F8091.914 tiac.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lKxQN3.0.rB4.tMsZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Bob Shannon wrote: > > After reading a few off the list posts I have received, I thought I > might offer this little thought experiment in a bit more detail: > > Take two mangnets, and fix one to a low friction work surface. > > Place the other magnet in close proximity, opposing (repelling) the > fixed magnet. Release the magent, and watch is slide away from the > fixed magnet. > > Ok, fine, now place a small weight on the sliding magnet, and move in > back into opposed proximity to the fixed magnet. > > Once again, release the magnet, and note that it again slides away from > the fixed magnet, usually turning around 180 degrees, and then being > drawn back to the fixed magnet. > > This reversal can easily be prevented by rails or guides of course. > > But we just moved the weight over a distance, and work WAS clearly done! > > Was this work done by the magnets? No, not at all! The magnets did no > work here. To make this clear, lets try another experiment: > > Replace the magets with compression springs. One is fixed, while the > second is free. > > First, we bring the springs together along their compression axis and > compress them. When released, the free spring flys away from the fixed > spring. Next, we place a weight in line with the springs, and compress > them. Once released, the weight is moved as the springs release the > stored tension. > > Again, work was done, as our weight was moved over a distance. > > But in this case it is a bit more clear that the springs stored the > energy used to compress them. The springs did not supply the energy > used to move the weight. > > This is the same situation as when the magnets moved apart when released > while the free magnet carried the weight. The magnets did not supply > the energy used to move the weight, and did not do the work. > > Now I do realize that these examples are quite different than Greg's > device! Lets stop cutting bait, and get on with the fishing: They have nothing at all to do with the physics that drives a SMO ramp! > But when we place the ball on the start of the ramp, we are putting > energy into the system. We release the ball, adding a bit more energy. NO ............. a thousand times NO. Bob, have you actually built a SMOT ramp? When you do so, you will see that this ststement is incorrect. > The ball goes up the ramp, and gravity returns the ball to the original > level, where it finds another ramp. If the ramp added energy to the > ball, it should travel up the second identical ramp a bit faster than it > had before. After a few circuits through the ramps, it should be moving > quite quickly if each trip up the ramp actually added energy to the > motion of the ball. Only if the added energy was greater than the frictional losses. If you build a SMOT ramp and play with the adjustments, you will learn that most of the energy gain in the ramp is lost in using the mag wall at the end of the ramp to push the ball back into the exit rails. Others will verify this. Using a sharp drop off, the SMOT ramps are sort of self regulating. The improved Phase 2 ramps with their "S" curved exits are another thing again. With these, we can actually hang onto more of the balls energy. Please Bob, before you say any more, BUILD 2 SMOT RAMPS. Then comment. > This added velocity could in theory be used to drive an external load of > some kind. (by flux cutting, etc.) > > But if the ball moves up the ramps at a constant speed on each circuit > through the ramps, where is our energy gain from the magnets 'doing > work'? > > It would be quite a conincidence if the frictional and other losses were > always equal to the energy gain, resulting in a contant average ball > velocity. Such a coincidence would be far more remarkable in light of > the different materials and methods used to build Greg's ramps. It > would also mean that the device was NOT over unity, but operating right > at unity (1:1). This would preclude driving an external load of course. As I said before, the way I designed the exit in the easy to build Phase 1 design makes the ramps sort of self regulating. Don't believe me? BUILD a Phase 1 SMOT ramp and see for yourself! > > If it's over unity, it MUST deliver this 'excess' energy to an external > load, not dissapate it on internal losses. > > So, in Greg's ramps, are the magnets doing the work of moving the ball > up the ramp, or are they translating the input energy into the balls > motion? Answer the question yourself. Build a SMOT ramp. > In a closed loop device, is there any evidence of the balls gaining net > velocity over time on each circuit through the system? If I place a > load, however small, on the balls motion, can I extract this energy that > some claim is being supplied by the magnets? Hi Bob, Build a SMOT ramp before you go on further. They REALLY do work. The Phase 1 design is self regulating. Honest! My Very Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 16:55:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA07969; Fri, 30 May 1997 16:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338F6658.4394 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:14:24 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs References: <338D2F83.369B microtronics.com.au> <338E32DE.6C4D@math.ucla.edu> <338E7A2C.1CD5@microtronics.com.au> <338F5D57.38BE@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cGKZ_3.0.Hy1.xRsZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > > > Where is there another example of a magnet powered device doing > > actual work! > > Take refrigerator magnet. Hold 0.5 cm from refrigerator. Release. > Magnet leaps to stick to fridge. Work was done. QED. > Do you think no one has ever noticed this capability before? > > > You have stated in the past that this was impossible. > > I stated no such thing. Refer to above. It is painfully > obvious that magnets can do work on things. In particular, > they atract/repel other magnets, so work is done. > > > Worried about your own research program Barry? > > Yes Greg. Your magnetic perpetual motion machine really > has me shook up. I'm resigning my position to start a > worm farm. :-) Why, we need you here. Barry, just build a ramp and PLAY with it. > -- > Barry Merriman Hi Barry, Build a ramp and play with it. You might learn something. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 17:19:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA27776; Fri, 30 May 1997 17:17:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:17:33 -0700 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:17:27 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: "Ego Improvements" In-Reply-To: <338F6149.7D97 microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"YgNEB2.0.wn6.SusZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 31 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE build your first two SMOT ramps like the plans I > have provided. They work and will link. I guarantee it! There are > MANY design choices and variables I had to go through to get the device > to work. Your first SMOT ramp is NOT the place or time for you to do > this. In the electronics hobbyist and kit-building arena, an "ego improvement" is the term used for an intentional modification added by the builder BEFORE getting the circuit to work. Kits and published schematics often fail to operate not because there are errors, but because the builder simply can't stand to follow someone else's instructions, and so adds "improvements" in order to claim the device as his/her own. This in itself is not bad as long as the builder realizes that ego issues are the cause, and that there is a large probability that the device will fail because of the alterations. I make "ego improvements" myself, it usually gives me added ambition because I then am building something I myself created, rather than just mimicing someone else's ideas. But as Jed has stressed here on numerous occasions, it is a wise idea to banish "ego improvements" when attempting replication of anomalous physical effects. If the phenomena involves unknowns, then ANY alteration can have an unknown effect. Very quickly we can end up doing the equivalent of building flat-winged "Wright Flyers." .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 17:29:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA13136; Fri, 30 May 1997 17:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <338F3741.213CAB7E verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:23:29 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: My magnets sizes are same as Naudin's X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HrNBx2.0.9D3.bssZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, I have difficulties on working on one ramp and linking. My new magnets sizes are 25 x 40 x 10 (N-S=10). Magnets are very strong and this is point where the problem start. I could not open the aperture between magnets more to loose the exit because I need at least 25 mm to climb. On even optimum position ball weight is enough to fall down. It is 17 mm diameter bearing ball. It was easier to working with the flexible magnets. I strongly recommend again Greg's specs. But it is too late for me. By the I found an other style to stack the magnets and it show very interesting effect on accelerating the ball. I will not to describe it at this moment for not disturbing the concentration of the team. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 17:31:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA30946; Fri, 30 May 1997 17:28:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:28:02 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970530172804.00af5284 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:28:08 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: SMOT works like this: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8pS2n1.0.QZ7.H2tZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think that Greg's next stage device, the RMOD, is NOT utilizing gravity and would work in gravityless environment. Right Greg ? At 07:36 PM 5/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >When you think about it, there is only one place that the SMOT could get >it's energy from: the Earth. The magnets pull the ball up, the Earth's >gravity pulls it down, the magnets pull it up, ... > >YOu get the idea. I think that this might EVEN cover a continues loop. >Just remember, this is slowing down the earth! Run it for 6 billion years >and the earth might loss half a second (: > >Let me know what you think. > >Andrew > > >-- >+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053 seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+ >| Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html | >| Science page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/ | >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| | >| "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics | >| ** Information is power, use it wisely. ** | >| ** No matter where you go, there you are. ** | >| | >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 17:34:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA32225; Fri, 30 May 1997 17:32:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:32:08 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338F716C.7764 math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:31:40 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT - Underestimating rolling friction. References: <3.0.32.19970530013720.00b2ce18 mail.localaccess.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xbuZp3.0.Jt7.56tZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Epitaxy wrote: > > rolling friction is underestimated. > I agree. Actually, its not rolling friction that is underestimated, since I used the real numbers for such things. Its just that the real system can also slide, etc. I was considering the most ideal system, as a starting point. Also, rolling in a channel may differ from rolling on a plane...friction is slightly complicated. > Now somebody please do the math of the frictional and air resistance > losses. Well, if you put the ball through a 1 = 2.5 cm inch drop, you ball weighs about 60 grams (assuming 7 gm/cc) so it has an energy of m g h = 0.06 10 0.025 = 0.015 Joules. The initial velocity is ( 3/10 of the energy is in rotational kinetic energy) (1 + 3/10) 1/2 m v^2 = 0.015 J => v = SQRT(0.015/(0.65 * 0.06)) = .6 => v = 60 cm/sec. (initially, of course) Since you said the ball went about 34 feet = 10 m before coming to rest (polished and lubed case), the duration must have been on the order of 10 m/ 0.6m/s ~ 20 seconds. You can ignore the air resistance losses, I showed (and the formulas for that were from well known experiment/theory) The power loss was like 4*10^-8 v Watts, so here it is 2*10^-6 Watts, and during the ~ 20 second rund thius would dissipate about 0.0001 J = 1% of the energy. So, we can get the effective coefficient of friction from F.distance = Energy and F = mu_eff m g (mu = coeff of fric) => mu_eff = E/(d m g) = 0.0015 J/ ( 10 m * 0.06kg * 10 m/s^2) = 0.0015/(6) = 0.0025 This is pretty in line with standard theory, actually, which said rolling is ~1000 less than sliding. We did not get the 10 x benefit from the lubrication, though---only a 50% improvement. However: Note this is just the effective friciton of your test set up, which is probably not pure rolling, esp due to your side ramps. This number would also be consistent with sliding 0.1% of the time with mu ~ 1 (say when it hit the sides) and a rolling friction coeff that is 0.0001 (the figure I used) the rest of the time. So its tricky to tell what frictional mode is dominant. The moral I want everyone to take away from this is: measure the friction of your track system experimentally (without the magnets present) to get some baseline. But note the presence of the magnets can *also* change the frictional losses, if it changes the proportions of rolling and sliding motion---which is very likely. > > Now what about the eddy braking ? > Probably important. A bit tricky to estimate---but why don't you just measure it on your same track setup by placing magnets. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 17:36:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA13790; Fri, 30 May 1997 17:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970530172154.00af3c80 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:21:55 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: Can magnets do work? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"baPK8.0.LN3.8zsZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: NO COINCIDENCE AT ALL. C'mon. It is quite obvious that the ball will reach certain TERMINAL VELOCITY because the eddy current braking and air resistance increase with speed. Soooo... since the losses are dependent on speed, they will very quickly reach an equilibrium. Just like a skydiver who reaches 160 miles per hour and does not accelerate any faster although the gravity is pulling on him with the same force as in the beginning. If it wasn't for this simple relationship the ball would go faster and faster and faster.................. At 06:36 PM 5/30/97 -0700, you wrote: >It would be quite a conincidence if the frictional and other losses were >always equal to the energy gain, resulting in a contant average ball >velocity. Such a coincidence would be far more remarkable in light of >the different materials and methods used to build Greg's ramps. It >would also mean that the device was NOT over unity, but operating right >at unity (1:1). This would preclude driving an external load of course. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 17:41:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA01253; Fri, 30 May 1997 17:38:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:38:25 -0700 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:38:15 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Can magnets do work? In-Reply-To: <338F6546.7786 microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"GxVVO.0.QJ.-BtZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 31 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > Bob Shannon wrote: > > The ball goes up the ramp, and gravity returns the ball to the original > > level, where it finds another ramp. If the ramp added energy to the > > ball, it should travel up the second identical ramp a bit faster than it > > had before. After a few circuits through the ramps, it should be moving > > quite quickly if each trip up the ramp actually added energy to the > > motion of the ball. > > Only if the added energy was greater than the frictional losses. Yes. And besides "rolling friction" and inductive braking, there is also demagnetization/remagnetization loss in the steel of the ball (also called hysterisis loss.) My gut feel is that this path for energy loss is greater than inductive braking. Shifting the permanent magnetization of the steel ball will slow the ball and heat it. One way to reduce hysterisis loss: don't use steel, use a ferromag material which cannot be permanently magnetized. Pure iron for example. I've heard that steel with extremely high carbon content is similar. I believe that the alloys used in transformer laminations are optimized for reduced hysterisis loss. However, perhaps the o/u effect involves hysterisis in the ball, and a pure iron ball actually will not run in closed-loop mode. > If you build a SMOT ramp and play with the adjustments, you will learn > that most of the energy gain in the ramp is lost in using the mag wall > at the end of the ramp to push the ball back into the exit rails. > Others will verify this. This is interesting. Why should this be? Since fields are conservative, the ball should "bounce off" the exit field, and any slowing that occurs should produce a speedup in a later part of the ball's trajectory. That is, unless there is a big dollop of hysterisis loss because of the nonlinear fields magnetizing the steel ball. > > It would be quite a conincidence if the frictional and other losses were > > always equal to the energy gain, resulting in a contant average ball > > velocity. I have to disagree. Physical systems with low power and high friction will accelerate only up to a speed where frictional loss is equal to excess energy input rate. If friction was constant, then the rate of energy loss increases with increasing speed. The system will "magically" find the special speed where power loss equals power input. (Imagine a wind-up toy boat driving across a bathtub; it doesn't speed up and up, instead it immediately settles to a constant speed.) In Greg's device, the average speed should remain constant, but if the s-curves are added, a new, higher speed is attained. If the rails are then polished, yet a higher speed results. If friction could be reduced by orders of magnitude (needle-bearing disk spinning in a vacuum?), the ball speed might be very very high. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 18:09:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA19362; Fri, 30 May 1997 17:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970530175601.00af1bb8 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:56:02 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: SMOT - Underestimating rolling friction. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Qj7u72.0.Jk4.0TtZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My 1inch ball weighs 66.1 grams, the .75inch ball weighs 27.9 grams. Pretty close to your estimate. I should have included these numbers originally. My little math yields similar results. The 66.1gram ball at the height of 25.4mm represents 0.0164 Joules of potential energy. In the unlubricated case the ball makes 26 one-way trips through the horizontal channel (914mm each trip) so the total traveled distance is apx. 24 meters. It can be safely said that 24meter of the U channel dissipates 0.0164 Joules of energy with 1inch ball. In other words 1 Joule of energy should propel the 1inch ball for 1449 meters (almost a mile) At 05:31 PM 5/30/97 -0700, you wrote: >Epitaxy wrote: >> >> rolling friction is underestimated. >> > >I agree. Actually, its not rolling friction that is underestimated, >since I used the real numbers for such things. Its just that the >real system can also slide, etc. I was considering the most >ideal system, as a starting point. Also, rolling in a channel >may differ from rolling on a plane...friction is slightly complicated. > >> Now somebody please do the math of the frictional and air resistance >> losses. > >Well, if you put the ball through a 1 = 2.5 cm inch drop, >you ball weighs about 60 grams (assuming 7 gm/cc) so it has an energy of >m g h = 0.06 10 0.025 = 0.015 Joules. The initial velocity is >( 3/10 of the energy is in rotational kinetic energy) >(1 + 3/10) 1/2 m v^2 = 0.015 J => v = SQRT(0.015/(0.65 * 0.06)) = .6 > >=> v = 60 cm/sec. (initially, of course) > >Since you said the ball went about 34 feet = 10 m before coming to >rest (polished and lubed case), the duration must have been >on the order of 10 m/ 0.6m/s ~ 20 seconds. > >You can ignore the air resistance losses, I showed (and the formulas >for that were from well known experiment/theory) The power loss >was like 4*10^-8 v Watts, so here it is 2*10^-6 Watts, and during >the ~ 20 second rund thius would dissipate about 0.0001 J = 1% of the >energy. > >So, we can get the effective coefficient of friction from > >F.distance = Energy >and >F = mu_eff m g (mu = coeff of fric) > >=> > >mu_eff = E/(d m g) > = 0.0015 J/ ( 10 m * 0.06kg * 10 m/s^2) > = 0.0015/(6) > > = 0.0025 > >This is pretty in line with standard theory, actually, which >said rolling is ~1000 less than sliding. We did not get the >10 x benefit from the lubrication, though---only a 50% improvement. > >However: Note this is just the effective friciton of your >test set up, which is probably not pure rolling, esp due to your >side ramps. This number would also be consistent with sliding >0.1% of the time with mu ~ 1 (say when it hit the sides) and >a rolling friction coeff that is 0.0001 (the figure I used) >the rest of the time. So its tricky to tell what frictional >mode is dominant. > >The moral I want everyone to take away from this is: measure >the friction of your track system experimentally (without >the magnets present) to get some baseline. But note the >presence of the magnets can *also* change the frictional losses, >if it changes the proportions of rolling and sliding motion---which >is very likely. > >> >> Now what about the eddy braking ? >> > >Probably important. A bit tricky to estimate---but why don't >you just measure it on your same track setup by placing magnets. > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 18:57:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA19112; Fri, 30 May 1997 18:49:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:49:37 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9705301733.ZM16221 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> References: Rick Monteverde "Re: SMOT Ball" (May 30 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:48:02 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: SMOT Ball Resent-Message-ID: <"gVMYZ1.0.Ng4.jEuZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John - > Can you re-phrase your question? > I don't understand what you're asking me. If you're busy, forget it. It refers to the long rambling post I made about unductively charging capacitors for "free energy". - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 18:58:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA26060; Fri, 30 May 1997 18:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:36:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:38:59 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: No apparent excess momentum Resent-Message-ID: <"gYFsz.0.6N6.p2uZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Barry wrote, >Tell me: is the magnet material itself "depleted" when it >attracts another object? No---but some of the field is. Just to clarify: Are you stating that the "field" is "depleted" but the magnet material is not "depleted" under the above-described conditions? Query: What is the mechanism/process enabling the "depletion" of the "field" independent of the "depletion" of the magnet material? Evan Soule' josephnewman earthlink.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 19:00:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA19026; Fri, 30 May 1997 18:49:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:49:25 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <338E32DE.6C4D math.ucla.edu> References: <338D2F83.369B microtronics.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:47:57 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Merriman, please pay the Ferryman Resent-Message-ID: <"8dsk5.0._e4.ZEuZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry - > Energy lost by the field due to presence of the ball: > ----------------------------------------------------- > > dE_B= > > (original field energy density)x(volume of depletion zone) > > = B0^2/(2 mu0) x (~ 20 * 10^-3 m)^3 > > B0 = 0.04 Tesla by Gregs field simulations > > = 0.005 Joules You calculate that a typical .01 kg ball accumulates .005 Joules of energy from the field. How high would we have to drop a ball from to get .005 joules of KE? mgh = .005J, h = .005J / (.01 kg * 9.8 m/s^2), h = .051m > [...] the available free energy is up to ~ 0.005 > Joules. This is enough energy to drive the > system for 5 * 10^4 seconds, which is 15 > hours So ...(lets do this in a vacuum with really well polished rails and no eddy currents) a drop from 51mm to a little curve-out ramp shoots the ball out across the rails with .005 Joules of KE, and it's going to take 15 hours to stop rolling. Hmm. You know, I think there's a "vortex toy" or something like that consisting of a funnel with a curved cross section. You roll a steel ball onto it so it goes round and round like a decaying orbit, and it takes a really long time for the ball to finally go down the hole - like 5 minutes, something like that? Perhaps I've misunderstood what you mean with your calculations above, but I think I am the current record holder for Most Egregious Math Error on Vortex. A while back I posted a calculation that my little Dremel tools had edge speeds of 4000 miles per hour. I'm an uneducated tinkerer with a job. You have a PhD with a job in physics. But it seems that you've posted a serious challenge to my MEMEV title, unless my current effort above keeps me on top for some reason! Posted Dremel speed: ~4000mph Actual dremel speed: ~40 mph Error factor: 100 Posted ball rollout duration: 15h * 60min = 900 minutes Actual ball rollout duration: ~5 minutes, maybe ~10? Error factor: ~100 We're neck and neck. Barry, a serious suggestion: pour yourself a tall cold one, build a SMOT, and enjoy the ride. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 19:21:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA29334; Fri, 30 May 1997 19:19:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:19:07 -0700 Date: 30 May 97 22:16:45 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Are you kidding us, Barry? Message-ID: <970531021645_72240.1256_EHB41-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"0ZWVu2.0.GA7.QguZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A To: Vortex Barry Merriman is taking a joke too far here. This is getting outlandish. He writes: Try this: Put magnet on table, fixed in place. Place steel ball a few cm away at rest. Steel ball will roll towards magnet, thus gaining kinetic energy. Energy is now in the steel ball, and it came from the magnetic field (not the magnet material per se). This is the type of mechanism I am talking about. What could this possibly have to do with the situation?!? Barry, don't you realize how utterly different this is from the system we are describing? Look, you can use the SMOT in this mode. It is trivial. You make the track level and arrange the magnets around the middle. When you release the steel ball, it rolls past the magnet array and out the end. Then it goes back. It oscillates a few times and stops in front of the strongest point in the magnetic field. Obviously, that kind of behavior could NEVER lead to a bead that keeps going around and around. It can never escape the magnetic field in the first place! Every joule of kinetic energy it picks up going into the field, it loses on the way out. If that was not the case, it would be like a ball that you drop from 1 meter which bounces back up 2 meters. So you are saying this is the first time in history a magnet has pulled a steel object towards it? You are looking at the wrong end! Going toward a magnet is nothing. Getting out is the problem. The claim is that the steel object LEAVES the magnet with more energy than it has going in, just like the bouncing ball that magically picks up excess kinetic energy from gravity, and bounces up higher than it starts. Jed, the mechanism I was suggesting is as plain as day. To you, maybe, but I bet no other reader in this forum agrees. As far as I can tell, from my meager knowledge of physics, you are proposing a gross violation of c. of e. That's no "mechanism"! I admit there might be a c. of e. violation, assuming the thing actually goes for days, but I would not call that a "mechanism" and it sure as hell isn't plain as day! It is another way of saying I have not got the foggiest idea what could be happening. Whether it really describes the behavior of this particular class of device is open to debate----since the behavior of this device is not yet very well characterized. The behavior is extremely well characterized. It's simple: the ball goes up and up, it rolls back to the beginning, and then it does it over again and again, until the machinery wears out. That's what happens, unless Greg is lying or insane. I don't see how you can claim that is not a crystal clear characterization. I do not see how your model -- a magnet attracting a ball -- could explain that kind of behavior in a million years, since magnets never let go and they do not pull harder going in than coming out. I wrote that the only energy associated with a magnet is the energy you store up by drawing the bead some distance away, as with a spring. Barry asks: How do you know it is not this energy which powers the device, for e.g.? Two reasons, which should be BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE: 1. It is a violation of the first law. The ball should never get away from the magnet. 2. The force you feel when you hold ball or draw it back from the magnet is TINY!!! Try it. It is far less than the pull of a small rubber band. When you shoot a ball bearing down a track or through a pinball machine with the force of a small rubber band, it soon stops rolling. Someone here did a good test with a well made track. Please note that ball did not roll for THREE DAYS. That is absolutely, positively, impossible, absurd, and unthinkable. It is like a match that burns for a week. Air resistance alone will stop it in a few minutes. Depends on construction. I could certainly design a device that would make many many revolutions using only the above energy, if I use this energy to launch the ball into a racetrack, for example. Oh, is that all? It is all in the "construction," is it? Ah, I see. Well, if you think you know what "construction" will keep a ball moving in a circle for three days with the force of a few small magnets, then you should tell us what it is, and you should build the thing. Show us how to accelerate a ball towards a magnet and then have it escape from the magnetic field with inertia intact -- without your moving the magnet. Go ahead! If you can "certainly do it" then you certainly should. You will save us all a lot of trouble and you will win a dozen Nobel Prizes. Give Us A Break Barry. You don't have to believe Greg. You don't have to build a SMOT and try to observe the behavior yourself. Nobody is asking you to do anything. But for goodness sake, please do not pretend that you can wave your arms and "explain away" the reported behavior as a normal part of accepted, everyday physics. That's crazy! That's even more crazy than Frank Close, who thinks you can store 100 megajoules of chemical energy in 40 milligrams of metal. If the phenomenon reported by Greg is real and it can be replicated by many people, it is a genuine breakthrough, a mystery, and one of the most important discoveries in history. There is no middle ground and there can be no doubt about it. A ball pulled by magnets that goes around a track is a miracle. It should stop dead at the strongest magnetic field in the loop. Or, if all points in the loop are under equal magnetic pull, it should act as if there are no magnets anywhere, since it is always pulled back as much as forward. A ball that goes around twice, three times, and keeps going for three days is easily the most impossible, outrageous, gross violation of known laws that any scientist can come up with. It's a perpetual motion machine! If you don't believe me, ask around. Ask your colleagues whether they think this is possible. Tell them you "could certainly design a device" that will do this. Tell your boss you can, and you will soon be fired. Every scientist in California will think you are stark staring crazy for making such a claim! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 19:36:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA04280; Fri, 30 May 1997 19:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:28:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:26:06 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: No apparent excess momentum Resent-Message-ID: <"43K7x1.0.o21.souZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Evan - > Query: What is the mechanism/process > enabling the "depletion" of the "field" > independent of the "depletion" of the magnet > material? I've been trying to get him to explain this, but now it seems that he says it's the ball that somehow goes bad. Barry never actually said the following, but here's my interpretation of what this whole long thread really means, FWIW: ----------begin thread---------- Barry: The ball gets magnetized and the SMOT won't work. Others: Use a sphere of powdered iron, ferrite, etc. Greg: Build a SMOT. ----------end thread ----------- I like Greg's answer best. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 19:38:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA04726; Fri, 30 May 1997 19:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:33:55 -0700 (PDT) From: HLafonte aol.com Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:32:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970530223234_843712969 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fwd: Question? Very important question! Resent-Message-ID: <"RR9hf.0.j91.EuuZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Question? Very important question! Date: 97-05-30 22:31:38 EDT From: HLafonte To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Greg, I have a book by Lester R, Moskowitz called, Permanent Magnet Design and Application Handbook. He states that one of the first things that a person who is handling permanent magnets for the first time ask's is, when they pull two magnets apart they pull each other back together again and if they do this sequence over and over again the magnets don't lose any strength and they ask where does the energy come from to keep them pulling each other back together again? He says it should be quite clear to them what is going on. When they let the magnets pull each other together the magnets do work and a certain amout of the magnets energy is reduced. What they don't see going on is, that when they pull the magnets apart they do work on the magnets and restore that lost energy back to the magnets. If this is not so, then every time we pull two magnets apart we are increasing the total energy of the magnets and if we were to do this a million times then the magnets would be so full of energy they would be about to " burst at the seams". What scares me is if what he says is true then every time you got the magnets to do work, then to maintain the original energy level of the magnets, you would half to return that work in total to the magnets and if any of that work was done external of the system, and not returned to the system in full, then the total energy of the magnets drops. Please tell me this is not so and why! Butch LaFonte From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 20:26:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA10077; Fri, 30 May 1997 20:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338F98DE.4733 math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:19:58 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs References: <338D2F83.369B microtronics.com.au> <338E32DE.6C4D@math.ucla.edu> <338E7A2C.1CD5@microtronics.com.au> <338F5D57.38BE@math.ucla.edu> <338F6658.4394@microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oUUBm3.0.NT2.eavZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > > Build a ramp and play with it. > > You might learn something. > No doubt I would learn something if I did it. I'm far from an authority on magnetic materials. Nor am I certain the theory I proposed necessarily accounts for hoe the smot works. The question is whether I would learn anything more interesting than the other zillion things I'm trying to learn now, and I sort of doubt it. Once other folks are running closed loop smots, and if they are all still baffled, I will build one. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 20:30:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA10280; Fri, 30 May 1997 20:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:18:57 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex cc: John Schnurer Subject: Comment Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"kGJF91.0.YW2.CcvZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., Some thoughts and comments based on past experience, 'the books', and working with the Watson gizmo ... and some other stuff, just for fun: 1] Using ferrite magnets, similar to the ones sean on Jean's page the actual field the bearing is subjected to is small compared to the field an eddy curret brake is subject to. 2] The small field in the 'as shown' watson design does not impart much residual magnetism to a common bearing UNLESS you let it get away and impact the magnets.... which has happened to me a lot. 3] Referrring to the "UNLESS" in [2]; I have a neo design and the ball has gotten away several times, common off-the-shelf bearing. The magnetisation of the bearing does not seem to hurt things much. 4] Greg did a lot of ... probably heart breaking at times ... tinkering to get where he is now. Importantly he learned, did his science, and tinkered more. As an experimental physicist and a fan of the Cavendish labs .... he is up there with JJ Thompson, Rutherford, Wilson and the like in working with what is at hand. 5] For the 'current loop folks' : Put the magnet set up in the freezer for a couple of hours and run it with really cold magnets. 6] There is a nice play of effects in this set up. I described one aspect of this to an associate as follows; a] gravity is pully gently down, b] on entering the track the ball is attracted c] the magnets' collective field present a gradient d] the ball gains some from each magnet set as it progresses e] as it exits the ball must have enough chutzpah gained from the previous magnets to overcome the braking effect of; i] friction ii] the last magnet's effects iii] other losses So the associate said "like the sling shot effect in outer space when they shoot a space craft near the gravitational well of, say, the sun" Gravity warps space....which affects objects affected by gravity,....... magnets warp space in such a way that affects objects affected by magnetism. It is a wonderful and simple thing. I personally took a lot and still take some heat for working with gravity.... but I think the heat comes from assulting other persons' vested perception of gravity. At one point I said "this [EE Podkletnov's work] has been in the public domain since 1992 .... if we were making shoes you would not beef". So build Greg's thing. From his descriptions it was easy for me, but this is because I have worked with magnetic materials and circuits for 30 years .... so stick with it. Even though I saw the fields' effects in my mind's eye, seeing a 5 ounce + steel ball go up hill is and was grand. I often have the wonder and thrill of seeing such, but often have no one there to share the initial observation. So thank you Greg for sharing with us. Shrug off the heat. And to the rest of you who have not built this..... try it. JHS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 20:30:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA06981; Fri, 30 May 1997 20:28:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:28:45 -0700 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:25:27 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Question? Very important question! In-Reply-To: <970530223234_843712969 emout02.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mIFin2.0.-i1.ihvZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a very good book. > From: HLafonte > To: freenrg-l eskimo.com > > Greg, > I have a book by Lester R, Moskowitz called, Permanent Magnet Design and > Application Handbook. He states that one of the first things that a person > who is handling permanent magnets for the first time ask's is, when they pull > two magnets apart they pull each other back together again and if they do > this sequence over and over again the magnets don't lose any strength and > they ask where does the energy come from to keep them pulling each other back > together again? He says it should be quite clear to them what is going on. > When they let the magnets pull each other together the magnets do work and a > certain amout of the magnets energy is reduced. What they don't see going on > is, that when they pull the magnets apart they do work on the magnets and > restore that lost energy back to the magnets. > If this is not so, then every time we pull two magnets apart we are > increasing the total energy of the magnets and if we were to do this a > million times then the magnets would be so full of energy they would be about > to " burst at the seams". > What scares me is if what he says is true then every time you got the > magnets to do work, then to maintain the original energy level of the > magnets, you would half to return that work in total to the magnets and if > any of that work was done external of the system, and not returned to the > system in full, then the total energy of the magnets drops. > Please tell me this is not so and why! > Butch LaFonte > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 20:42:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA12042; Fri, 30 May 1997 20:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <338F9D91.734A math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:40:01 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Merriman, please pay the Ferryman References: <338D2F83.369B microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Sb8oC1.0.1y2.9tvZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > But it seems that you've posted a > serious challenge to my [all time error] title, unless my current > effort above keeps me on top for some reason! > > Posted Dremel speed: ~4000mph > Actual dremel speed: ~40 mph > Error factor: 100 > > Posted ball rollout duration: 15h * 60min = 900 minutes > Actual ball rollout duration: ~5 minutes, maybe ~10? > Error factor: ~100 > > We're neck and neck. Uh, Rick, I did not make any calculational error. I showed that if the magnetization energy available from placing the ball in the field went only to overcome rolling friction and air drag at a constant speed of ~ 1 cm/sec for 15 hours. That is just a fact. The question is to what extent that model problem mimics a real SMOT. There are obvious deficiencies and differences, and so I don't really know. The lesson I take away from it is that this is a sytem with little dissipation and ample free energy, and therefore the potential to run for times that seem counterintuitive. Given that, it seems at best premature to imagine the device is likely to be "OU". As greg is fond of pointing out, building enough of these devices will result in a settlement of the issue. In the mean time, anyone care to make a $1000 bet that this device is really overunity? Put your money where your dreams are? -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 21:08:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA16808; Fri, 30 May 1997 21:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:03:38 +0800 (SGT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970531120352.2127a2ca po.pacific.net.sg> X-Sender: mpowers8 po.pacific.net.sg X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mpower Subject: Re: Are you kidding us, Barry? Resent-Message-ID: <"DrjEi.0.T64.ODwZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell posted the following (edited for brevity) at 22:16 1997.05.30 EDT: >To: Vortex > >Barry Merriman is taking a joke too far here. This is getting outlandish. *************************************************************** *PLEASE* don't take this discussion emotionally ballistic,... *************************************************************** ...NOW, back to the nuts and bolts of the issue: >... since magnets never let go and They never let go ? An assumption worth checking ? Could it be that there is some mechanism (aspect) which would provide that the ball is attracted less at higher velocity than lower velocity ? Consider the ball at rest just outside the point at which it is attracted into the ramp's magnetic field. A flea impacts the nether side (how many picojoules needed ?), causing the ball to enter the attraction zone of the ramp where it gains velocity going up the ramp. This velocity (momentum) is accumulated against a gradual gravity gradient going into the *gradually* higher flux density. At the point where the ball begins its exit, the flux density drops sharply while the gravitational force increases toward g. The difference between the forces is: positive in favor of the magnetic field during the ascent phase positive in favor of gravity during the descent phase. At face value, the net gain and loss would appear to balance, but my point is: the magnetic field pulled a slow ball deep into it's field, but the ball (at the point where it begins to exit the field) has a velocity. In a classical view, this velocity should reduce to zero as the field strips the ball of velocity, resulting in the ball stopping at a point which is identical (in energy terms) to the point at which it began. Trouble is, it doesn't (I built one also). I suspect the (momentary) magnetization of the slow ball may be one key to the process. As it reaches the apex, the sudden decrease in flux may be inducing an added repulsion into the exit from the field. > they do not pull harder going in than coming out. Or do they ? Is relative velocity a factor in the force between magnetic fields ? [I'm Back ;^) ] ********************************************************** * http://home.pacific.net.sg/~mpowers8 ******** ********************************************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 21:12:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA16677; Fri, 30 May 1997 21:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338F9C30.2C12 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:04:08 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: neotech xbn.shore.net, newman-l@emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: SMOT Kits and SMOT Phases update (31st May, 1997) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EwMeB2.0.S44.TCwZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Here are the updated SMOT Kit and SMOT Phases details : ******************** Price : $150 Australian Dollars via International Bank Cheque made payable to Greg Watson Consulting. ~ 115 US Dollars, 70 UK Pounds, 660 French Francs, 158 Canadian Dollars, 3975 Belgium Francs, 195 German Marks, 13200 Japanese Yen, 165 New Zealand Dollars, 875 Swedish Krona, 192000 Italian Lira 1350 Austrian Schillings 160 Swish Francs Please remit funds via an International Bank Cheque in Australian Dollars. ******************** Where to send for your SMOT Kit : Greg Watson Consulting, 8 Brabham Grove, Aberfolye Park, 5159, South Australia, Australia. Contact Details : Home / Business / PC Fax .......... 61 8 8270 2737 E-Mail ............................ gwatson microtronics.com.au ******************** What you will get for your $150 dollars : 4 x Heat formed perspex bases (Numbered, dated and signed my me), 4 x Linking ramps with "S" curve exits, 1 x Linking ramp with 90 deg exit (Rollaway / Rollaround use), 8 x Assembled Magnet Arrays, 4 x Steel Balls, 8 x Dress Making Pins, 1 x Instruction Manual, 1 x Frameable "Certificate of Authenticity", 1 x Photo of ME with the 4 linked SMOT ramps, The SMOT kits are "Exec Desk" Quality. One kit will produce 4 "Exec Desk" Toys. ******************** Delivery : Via international postal air mail. ******************** My Personal Guarantee : Assuming that the ramps are placed on a flat level surface, I Greg Watson personal guarantee that : 1) The 4 SMOT ramps will work as individual ramps. A ball statring at rest will climb the ramp and drop out. start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 1) >>>>>>> This is Phase 1 of SMOT development and testing. 2) The 4 SMOT ramps will link and deliver a ball starting at rest to the end of the 4th linked ramp and drop out. start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 1) start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 2) start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 3) start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm. (Ramp 4) >>>>>>> This is Phase 2 of SMOT development and testing. If your SMOT kit can't do this, I will refund your money. ******************** Additional claims : Depending on your skill in adjusting the ramps and their linking, you should expect to achieve the following : 1) That the 4 linked ramps can be placed on a base board that will elevate the ramps at an angle and achieve a final ramp height at least twice the original height. The use of a board allows gradual increase of the ramp heights while you learn to power up the ramps. start at 0mm, climb to 15mm, drop to 3mm, (Ramp 1) start at 3mm, climb to 18mm, drop to 6mm, (Ramp 2) start at 6mm, climb to 21mm, drop to 9mm, (Ramp 3) start at 9mm, climb to 24mm, drop to 0mm. (Ramp 4) >>>>>> This is Phase 3 of SMOT development and testing. 2) That with the tilted linking achieved, the ball on exiting the final ramp will fall to the entry level and roll away from the ramp assemblies (staying at the entry level). (This is the first OU claim). >>>>>> This is Phase 4 of SMOT development and testing. 3) That with the rollaway achieved, a rollaround using plastic tubing will allow the ball to return to the start. (This is the second OU claim) >>>>>> This is Phase 5 of SMOT development and testing. 4) That with the rollaround achieved, the ball will re-enter the first ramp and repeat the process. (This is the third OU claim) >>>>>> This is Phase 6 and final stage of SMOT development and testing. ******************** I can't guarantee that YOU will achieve all of the above. To do so will depend on how good you get in adjusting the magnets. Many others will support my claim that getting the adjustments right can require hours of fiddling or minutes. It all depends on how much you understand the dynamics of the ramps. The more you play, the more you understand and the adjustments become second nature. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Web sites who display this offer for at least 3 months will receive a FREE SMOT Kit. If you have already purchased a SMOT kit, I will refund your money. I will have photos of the finished SMOT kits available with-in a week. Best Regards, Good Smoting to all, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 21:27:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA19253; Fri, 30 May 1997 21:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338FA731.30AD microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:51:05 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Can magnets do work? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aFoKp1.0.ci4.VVwZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > On Sat, 31 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > > > Bob Shannon wrote: > > > The ball goes up the ramp, and gravity returns the ball to the original > > > level, where it finds another ramp. If the ramp added energy to the > > > ball, it should travel up the second identical ramp a bit faster than it > > > had before. After a few circuits through the ramps, it should be moving > > > quite quickly if each trip up the ramp actually added energy to the > > > motion of the ball. > > > > Only if the added energy was greater than the frictional losses. > > Yes. And besides "rolling friction" and inductive braking, there is also > demagnetization/remagnetization loss in the steel of the ball (also called > hysterisis loss.) My gut feel is that this path for energy loss is greater > than inductive braking. Shifting the permanent magnetization of the steel > ball will slow the ball and heat it. One way to reduce hysterisis loss: > don't use steel, use a ferromag material which cannot be permanently > magnetized. Pure iron for example. I've heard that steel with extremely > high carbon content is similar. I believe that the alloys used in > transformer laminations are optimized for reduced hysterisis loss. > However, perhaps the o/u effect involves hysterisis in the ball, and a > pure iron ball actually will not run in closed-loop mode. > > > If you build a SMOT ramp and play with the adjustments, you will learn > > that most of the energy gain in the ramp is lost in using the mag wall > > at the end of the ramp to push the ball back into the exit rails. > > Others will verify this. > > This is interesting. Why should this be? Since fields are conservative, > the ball should "bounce off" the exit field, and any slowing that occurs > should produce a speedup in a later part of the ball's trajectory. That > is, unless there is a big dollop of hysterisis loss because of the > nonlinear fields magnetizing the steel ball. The bounce off the exit field pushes the ball back into the now near vertical exit rails, otherwise the ball would be sucked to one of the mag arrays. With a 90 deg exit rail (easy to make for Phase 1), as the ball exits, it can become airborne and be quickly pulled sideways. If you slide the arrays up the ramp you will see this happen. If you pull them down, you will see the mag "bounce back" wall. Somewhere in between is the exit point. This exit characteristics acts like a speed limiter and regulates the max exit speed you can obtain to a very low value. The "S" curved exit changes that and allows the ball to retain more of its kinetic energy. But the design becomes more complicated and the magnets need different adjustments. > > > It would be quite a conincidence if the frictional and other losses were > > > always equal to the energy gain, resulting in a contant average ball > > > velocity. > > I have to disagree. Physical systems with low power and high friction > will accelerate only up to a speed where frictional loss is equal to > excess energy input rate. If friction was constant, then the rate of > energy loss increases with increasing speed. The system will "magically" > find the special speed where power loss equals power input. (Imagine a > wind-up toy boat driving across a bathtub; it doesn't speed up and up, > instead it immediately settles to a constant speed.) > > In Greg's device, the average speed should remain constant, but if the > s-curves are added, a new, higher speed is attained. If the rails are > then polished, yet a higher speed results. If friction could be reduced > by orders of magnitude (needle-bearing disk spinning in a vacuum?), the > ball speed might be very very high. > > .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. > William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 > EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ > Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 21:36:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA17172; Fri, 30 May 1997 21:28:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:28:17 -0700 Message-ID: <338FA805.6B64 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:54:37 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT works like this: References: <3.0.32.19970530172804.00af5284 mail.localaccess.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"d-8KU.0.EC4.VZwZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Epitaxy wrote: > > I think that Greg's next stage device, the RMOD, is NOT utilizing gravity > and would work in gravityless environment. > > Right Greg ? Hi Epitaxy, RMOD Mark I ..... Gravity needed. RMOD Mark II .... Gravity NOT needed. (Still sims and theory, but looking good and powerfull) Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 21:38:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA19366; Fri, 30 May 1997 21:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:25:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <338F9D91.734A math.ucla.edu> References: <338D2F83.369B microtronics.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:23:11 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Merriman, please pay the Ferryman Resent-Message-ID: <"JQNEp.0.Wk4.eWwZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry - > Uh, Rick, I did not make any calculational > error. I showed that if the magnetization > energy available from placing the ball in the > field went only to overcome rolling friction > and air drag at a constant speed of ~ 1 > cm/sec for 15 hours. That is just a fact. I guess using the whole wrong set of numbers in the first place then doesn't count as a computational error, as long as the arithmetic actually works out right. Oh well, then the trophy's still on my desk, as it should be. > As greg is fond of pointing out, building > enough of these devices will result in a > settlement of the issue. Agreed, but I wonder if even that will settle it with you if the results go positive. You seem to have already carved out a pathway wide enough to carry those goal posts an awfully long way if you feel the need. Why should anyone take your $1000 OU bet? Why don't you declare your specific criteria for what "OU" in the case of the SMOT would be, and then *stick with it*? Does a continuous 100 hour run seem fair? Greg's right about this, not so long ago such a device would never be even be considered able to get past ramp one, let alone more than one. Now it's 15, or 100, or much much more depending on whether the magnets wear down or not. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 21:42:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA19604; Fri, 30 May 1997 21:40:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:40:53 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970530223234_843712969 emout02.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:36:52 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Fwd: Question? Very important question! Resent-Message-ID: <"36-nu3.0.Eo4.LlwZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Butch (I think) wrote: > What scares me is if what he says is true > then every time you got the magnets to do > work, then to maintain the original energy > level of the magnets, you would half to > return that work in total to the magnets and > if any of that work was done external of the > system, and not returned to the system in > full, then the total energy of the magnets > drops. > Please tell me this is not so and why! Here's the wild-eyed free-energy believer reason why this works: fist of all, it is so, but...it seems that you can take momentum (energy) from the magnetic field of a spinning charge, apparently leaving it momentarily "depleted" in some way. But that depletion is not really possible, so immediately the lack is made up by the charge by dipping into the ZPF or something for the difference. That's the idea, anyway. I don't know if it's true. Haven't heard a better explanation yet - except maybe that you really *can't* get energy from permanent magnets. But that doesn't appear to fit the SMOT situation, does it. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 21:45:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA21116; Fri, 30 May 1997 21:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338FAAFB.5D16 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 14:07:15 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs References: <199705310000.UAA27226 big.seorf.ohiou.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"b0CFF3.0.g95.mkwZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Science wig. sig. wrote: > > > > > Barry Merriman wrote: > > > > > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Where is there another example of a magnet powered device doing > > > > actual work! > > > > > > Take refrigerator magnet. Hold 0.5 cm from refrigerator. Release. > > > Magnet leaps to stick to fridge. Work was done. QED. > > > Do you think no one has ever noticed this capability before? > > > > > > > You have stated in the past that this was impossible. > > > > > > I stated no such thing. Refer to above. It is painfully > > > obvious that magnets can do work on things. In particular, > > > they atract/repel other magnets, so work is done. > > > > > > > Worried about your own research program Barry? > > > > > > Yes Greg. Your magnetic perpetual motion machine really > > > has me shook up. I'm resigning my position to start a > > > worm farm. :-) > > > > Why, we need you here. > > > > Barry, just build a ramp and PLAY with it. > > > > > -- > > > Barry Merriman > > > > Hi Barry, > > > > Build a ramp and play with it. > > > > You might learn something. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > Greg > > > > > Greg, > Way don't you help try and explain your great idea. You don't need to > jump on other people, just help us figure out where the energy is coming > from. I only get annoyed at folks that make statements about the SMOT device and they have never even built one. If you want to shoot it apart, thats fine, but first build one. Only seems fair, right? > It may not seem importaint to you, but there is no such thing is > FREE ENERGY. It is VERY important to me. I want to know how much I will have to pay the ferryman before I use his boat or energy. Reread my posts for the last few months. This concern has always been on the agenda. > It may seem free to us, but it has to come from somewhere. > No something for nothing in physics. It may come from Earth's gravity, as > I stated earlyer, it may come from some unknown source, but it is not > coming out of thin air. I agree. There are NO free lunches. > Andrew I have asked that same question many times. I am concerned to know where the energy is comming from. > P.s. Oh, and i'm getting the parts for this project on Saturday so don't just > tell me to build one. I am glad. If you have any problems, ask me. > I'm not saying you have not found anything here, > infact I think this may be a huge find. I think it should be quite > posable to make a loop. I just want to know where the energy is coming > from, that's all. > P.P.s Oh, do you have a list of all that parts you need to build this? > It would make my life easyer... -- Most of the web site with SMOT details have that info, some are : http://oscar.clubelite.com:8888/smot/ http://home.worldonline.nl/~catware/ http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm > +-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053 seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+ Hi Andrew, Hope this helps. And I am really a very nice person. Best Regards and good Building, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 22:01:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA23302; Fri, 30 May 1997 21:59:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:59:15 -0700 Message-ID: <338FB054.70B0 skypoint.com> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:00:04 -0500 From: John Logajan Organization: Skypoint Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Art Bell WANTS smot-x References: <338DE458.93E6C61D verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sHDqe.0.0i5.Y0xZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > After the SMOT runs down, we have a phunny ball situation. It's not the > magnets that go bad, it's the ball! What exactly is it about this 'used' > ball that's different from a 'fresh' ball? Can I refresh depleted balls > somehow? Do I just have to wait about two hours? I can't help but > conclude you may mean that the ball has become magnetized. I think you've put your finger on a testable explanation. As Chris Tinsley has suggested, non-magnetized iron is really just a horde of randomly aligned magnetic domains -- in a net higher energy state. Therefore placing an un-magentized iron ball in the device is to put a higher energy state object in the fields of the rail magnets. Since Chris suggests that these rail magnets cannot become de-magnetized without energy being added, by reverse logic, the ball cannot become magnetized without giving up energy. I believe Merriman, Sevoir and others have calculated that there is quite a bit of delta energy in a magnetized versus unmagnetized object. Therefore the ball actually has a good bit of energy to give up (it only has to overcome the rolling friction losses etc). Two reasons why the ball may increasingly become magnetized -- it is moving through varying (but not reversing) fields, and it keeps getting periodic physical jolts as it drops from the ramp exits. It has long been known that taping a metal object in a magnetic field helps accelerate the object's magnetization (it knocks the domains loose, if you will.) This hypothesis suggests that balls do indeed get tired -- tired to the extent that they get magnetized. Therefore if this conjecture is true, the balls must eventually roll to a stop. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 22:02:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA23595; Fri, 30 May 1997 22:01:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:01:30 -0700 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:01:24 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Barry's explanation In-Reply-To: <970531021645_72240.1256_EHB41-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"1omAQ3.0.bm5.f2xZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 30 May 1997, Jed Rothwell wrote: > To you, maybe, but I bet no other reader in this forum agrees. As far as I > can tell, from my meager knowledge of physics, you are proposing a gross > violation of c. of e. That's no "mechanism"! I admit there might be a c. of > e. violation, assuming the thing actually goes for days, but I would not call > that a "mechanism" and it sure as hell isn't plain as day! It is another way > of saying I have not got the foggiest idea what could be happening. Unless I'm totally confused, Barry seems to be saying that: - when the ball is released at one particular point in the system, strong magnetic forces launch it violently forward. There is a one-time initial kick involved here. - the friction around the whole loop is *extremely* low, - net forward force around the loop then is zero, and the ball essentially drifts around the loop for 100's of seconds because of the tiny friction. Eventually it should slow enough to hang up at one particular place. But if the ball rolls at constant average speed, and does NOT slow down continously, then his explanation is wrong. Or, if the ball is instead released at a "worst case" point in the loop, then the "launching" forces will be minimal and the ball will be launched gently rather than violently, and if it THEN speeds up to a higher average speed and maintains this speed, his explanation is wrong. Interesting note: I originally imagined that the ball must lose all its accumulated K.E. as it falls over a dropoff and bounces off the next rail. If so, and if the ball then continues to move, it must be an anomalous event. Not so! Since the top of the previous rail pulls upwards on the ball as it falls, energy is therefor stored in the magnetic field and the ball is lowered gently. Energy is put back as the ball is drawn upwards along the next slope. With perfect adjustment, the ball might touch down onto the next rail at zero velocity and lose no K.E. at all. No "click" sound. Therefore the net friction around the whole loop might be very low after all, it might be nearly equivalent to a perfectly flat circular track having no magnets! Weird! .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 22:22:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA26252; Fri, 30 May 1997 22:19:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:19:58 -0700 Message-ID: <338FB485.52B6 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 14:47:57 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT Design and Adjustment Hints References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uFpBy2.0.2Q6.yJxZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Chris - > > > I've switched to 19*50*6mm (poles on large faces) > > [snip] > > > The ball is about 13mm > > Right off I'd say your magnets are too wide for the ball. Same problem > here. Single ramps work well, but linking doesn't. I'm waiting for a > shipment of small magnets to arrive. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI Hi Rick, You are right. The magnet height should be smaller than the balls diameter. Also the centre line of the magnets should be above the ball by about a mm or so. This helps to reduce rolling losses. Put the ball above the centre line of the magnets and you can HEAR the increases frictional losses. So here are some SMOT design guidelines : 1) Your magnet height should be around 75% of the lift you are trying to get. 2) Your ball should be 10-25% bigger than the magnet height. 3) Shorter ramps and mag arrays work better than longer setups. This is because the mag differential across the ball is greater for shorter ramps than long ones assuming that the entry and exit differentials remain the same. 4) Your ramp should be 13-15mm shorted than the mag array lengths. 5) Powerfull magnets don't make things better, they can actually cause problems. 6) Remember to back the mag arrays with a steel strip at least 3mm thick. Any thinner and the strip may saturate. 7) A 3mm radius on the top of the exit rail will assist exits and help to retain more of the balls kinetic energy. If you use a radiused exit, you will find that the magnets can be slid up the ramp to reduce losses in the mag "bounce back" wall at the end of the ramp. 8) The linking notch filed under the ramps end will allow inter ramp linking distance to be varied. This becomes important when we use radiused exits and slide the arrays up the ramp. Sliding the arrays up alters the takeoff point on entry and the adjustable linking notch allows for closer linking to compensate for the movement of the takeoff point. 9) Back plate linking can also assist. This is done by using a short bit of the backing strip and applying it to the ends of the magnet arrays. This increases the field in the ramp by providing a return path for some of the flux. 10) The cenrte line of the magnets should be 1 or 2mm above the centre line of the ball. This helps to reduce rolling friction and noise. To high and the ball will be difficult to keep on the centre line and will be sucked to one of the mag arrays. Hope these hints help to reduce some of the SMOT mystery. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 30 23:37:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA00137; Fri, 30 May 1997 23:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:34:01 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 02:32:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970531023239_843734192 emout18.mail.aol.com> To: gwatson microtronics.com.au cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: SMOT project dedicated web page Resent-Message-ID: <"tdKBk2.0.12.MPyZp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HI Greg, Due to the success of the SMOT project, I have created a dedicted web page, you may access now directly to the SMOT project at : http://members.aol.com/overunity3/html/smotidx.htm Overunity yours, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 03:30:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA08077; Sat, 31 May 1997 01:03:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:03:11 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:01:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970531040137_843742083 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com cc: gwatson microtronics.com.au, hamdix@verisoft.com.tr Subject: Re : My magnets sizes are same as Naudin's Resent-Message-ID: <"F2faU1.0.3-1.-izZp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 31/05/1997 03:36:28 , hamdix verisoft.com.tr (Hamdi Ucar) wrote : << Hi, I have difficulties on working on one ramp and linking. My new magnets sizes are 25 x 40 x 10 (N-S=10). Magnets are very strong and this is point where the problem start. I could not open the aperture between magnets more to loose the exit because I need at least 25 mm to climb. On even optimum position ball weight is enough to fall down. It is 17 mm diameter bearing ball. It was easier to working with the flexible magnets. I strongly recommend again Greg's specs. But it is too late for me. >> Hi Hamdi, I have used a 25mm steel ball ( weight = 70 gr ), have you seen my complete scheme V1.02 of my setup. I suggest you to visit again my SMOT web page at : http://members.aol.com/overunity3/html/smotidx.htm Check for the correct slope, the gap between magnets and the most important, the V angle between the magnets ramps. Look at again the QuickField simultation... The steel ball climb along the "magnetic neutral zone", convert magnetic energy into gravitic potential energy, and fall down just when the ball reach a "3 Dimensional neutral zone (vertical/horizontal ( magnetic, gravitic, time frame) )". I give you a very usefull tips to adjust the V shape of the magnets and the positionning of the Aluminium ramp : - replace your actual U shaped alum ramp, with a longer ramp, the normal fall down point must be replaced by the longer ramp. - put your steel ball at the theorical "fall down" point, if your V shape is correct and your estimated "fall down" point is the good one, the steel ball must be stay in equilibrium...... Check this....and play with the ball at this "3D point in the neutral zone", you will be able to understand the secret of the SMOT device..... I think that this tips will help you to adjust properly your mag.ramp. If you want more details or more pictures about the SMOT linking I can send it to you later.... SMOTy yours, From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 03:35:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA01908; Sat, 31 May 1997 03:28:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:28:22 -0700 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT - residual magnetization Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:27:39 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3397ca98.26448983 mail.eisa.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2ZDO32.0.kT.5r_Zp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If the ball is slowly becoming magnetised, then it will also have a tendency to keep the same poles toward the magnets time after time. It might be interesting to paint an N and an S on the ball (stop it during one of its hikes up the ramp), and see if it maintains its orientation over many tours of the circuit. At the moment, only Greg would appear to be in a position to do this. Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 03:48:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA03963; Sat, 31 May 1997 03:47:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:47:29 -0700 Message-ID: <338FE54F.3ECC microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:16:07 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Question? Very important question! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"em8AW3.0.bz._60ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Butch (I think) wrote: > > > What scares me is if what he says is true > > then every time you got the magnets to do > > work, then to maintain the original energy > > level of the magnets, you would half to > > return that work in total to the magnets and > > if any of that work was done external of the > > system, and not returned to the system in > > full, then the total energy of the magnets > > drops. > > Please tell me this is not so and why! > > Here's the wild-eyed free-energy believer reason why this works: fist of > all, it is so, but...it seems that you can take momentum (energy) from the > magnetic field of a spinning charge, apparently leaving it momentarily > "depleted" in some way. But that depletion is not really possible, so > immediately the lack is made up by the charge by dipping into the ZPF or > something for the difference. I support "ZPE" as the energy source. I view the ramps as if the magnet arrays were electromagnets. If that were so, we could "see" the input current varing as the balls moved and all would say "See the moving balls are drawing power from the input current supply". No Ou, just normal current to mag field to mechanical work conversion. Nothing new here. But now, because we are using "Permanent Magents", we can't "SEE" the current driving the magnets field, but its still there. Its the moving electrical charges called electrons flowing around the irom atoms in the "Permanent Magnets". Hals ZPE resupplying the electrons sounds right to me. > That's the idea, anyway. I don't know if it's true. Haven't heard a better > explanation yet - except maybe that you really *can't* get energy from > permanent magnets. But that doesn't appear to fit the SMOT situation, does > it. > > - Rick Monteverde Hi Rick, I favor Hal's ZPE theory. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 03:48:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA03877; Sat, 31 May 1997 03:47:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:47:21 -0700 Message-ID: <338FE2C1.30B0 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:05:13 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Art Bell WANTS smot-x References: <338DE458.93E6C61D verisoft.com.tr> <338FB054.70B0@skypoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kYWJX3.0.Qy.t60ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > > Rick Monteverde wrote: > > After the SMOT runs down, we have a phunny ball situation. It's not the > > magnets that go bad, it's the ball! What exactly is it about this 'used' > > ball that's different from a 'fresh' ball? Can I refresh depleted balls > > somehow? Do I just have to wait about two hours? I can't help but > > conclude you may mean that the ball has become magnetized. > > I think you've put your finger on a testable explanation. > > As Chris Tinsley has suggested, non-magnetized iron is really just > a horde of randomly aligned magnetic domains -- in a net higher energy > state. > > Therefore placing an un-magentized iron ball in the device is to put > a higher energy state object in the fields of the rail magnets. > > Since Chris suggests that these rail magnets cannot become de-magnetized > without energy being added, by reverse logic, the ball cannot become > magnetized without giving up energy. > > I believe Merriman, Sevoir and others have calculated that there is > quite a bit of delta energy in a magnetized versus unmagnetized > object. Therefore the ball actually has a good bit of energy to > give up (it only has to overcome the rolling friction losses etc). > > Two reasons why the ball may increasingly become magnetized -- it > is moving through varying (but not reversing) fields, and it keeps > getting periodic physical jolts as it drops from the ramp exits. > It has long been known that taping a metal object in a magnetic > field helps accelerate the object's magnetization (it knocks > the domains loose, if you will.) The rolling ball will encounter varying field curls and the domains will constantly be moving around. The bigger the ratio of ball diameter to magnet height, the bigger the domain movement will be. > This hypothesis suggests that balls do indeed get tired -- tired to > the extent that they get magnetized. Therefore if this conjecture > is true, the balls must eventually roll to a stop. They don't stop. > -- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - Hi John, I actually keep my spare balls stuck to a large ring magnet. I have not noticed any residual magnetism, but will check. Epitaxy's glass ferrite ball is very different. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 03:48:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA04049; Sat, 31 May 1997 03:47:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:47:38 -0700 Message-ID: <33900147.1ACF microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:15:27 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: JayCar Electronics (SMOT Magnets) References: <338DE458.93E6C61D verisoft.com.tr> <338E2670.1247@microtronics.com.au> <338E4E8D.5FB2@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_GxtS1.0.3_.870ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dave DeLeo wrote: > > Greg, > > Can you please send me the phone number of JayCar Electronics. > > The number I have 61 2 2743 6144 doesn't go through, I get a message to > dial 61 29 then the local number. (61 29 2743 6144) That number is not > JayCar. I would appreciate it if you could look up the number for me. > I can't find any suitable magnets localy so I figured I'll just order > them. > > Thank You > Dave DeLeo Hi Dave, Sorry for the confusion, we (Aust) are changing our phone numbering to 8 digits. JayCar's data is as follows : JayCar ELectronics, PO Box 185, Concord NSW, 2137, Australia. 61 2 9743 6144 (Phone) 61 2 9743 2066 (Fax) Hope this helps, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 04:15:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA08579; Sat, 31 May 1997 04:13:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:13:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3390033E.6DF microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:23:50 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: SMOT Design and Adjustment Hints] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"sW-zx3.0.z52.jV0ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from orion.Localaccess.com (Orion.localaccess.com [206.64.48.2]) by orca.microtronics.com.au (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA19734 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 16:29:15 +0930 (CST) Received: from orion.Localaccess.com by orion.Localaccess.com (NTMail 3.02.11) with ESMTP id da739755 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 23:59:05 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970530235929.00b07e70 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:59:30 -0700 To: gwatson microtronics.com.au From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: SMOT Design and Adjustment Hints Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Amen. I can attest to this ! With NdFeB grade 39 magnets the "neutral line" balancing is very and I mean very hard to accomplish. Don't even try it without polycarbonate or plexiglass bases, very strong epoxy resin and precisely threaded adjustment screws. At 02:47 PM 5/31/97 +0930, you wrote: > > 5) Powerfull magnets don't make things better, they can actually > cause problems. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 04:19:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA16487; Sat, 31 May 1997 03:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338FE622.4D61 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:19:38 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Scale up ramp References: <970530145708_1043325352 emout14.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qpO_f.0.T14.l90ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HLafonte aol.com wrote: > > Greg, > In theory, could you scale up the ramp to say, a length of five feet long, > with a lift of one inch? Then you could use a plastic tube to return the > ball. One ramp, one ball, one return path, could it be done ? > Butch LaFonte Hi Butch, Long ramps don't work as well as short ramps. See my earlier theory on this. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 04:20:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA16577; Sat, 31 May 1997 03:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338FDFC5.2D15 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:52:29 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Barry's explanation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UuUUX3.0.s24.u90ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A William Beaty wrote: > > On 30 May 1997, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > To you, maybe, but I bet no other reader in this forum agrees. As far as I > > can tell, from my meager knowledge of physics, you are proposing a gross > > violation of c. of e. That's no "mechanism"! I admit there might be a c. of > > e. violation, assuming the thing actually goes for days, but I would not call > > that a "mechanism" and it sure as hell isn't plain as day! It is another way > > of saying I have not got the foggiest idea what could be happening. > > Unless I'm totally confused, Barry seems to be saying that: > > - when the ball is released at one particular point in the system, > strong magnetic forces launch it violently forward. There is a > one-time initial kick involved here. While there is a strong inward pull at the opening of the ramp, the rest of the ramp's magnets do assist the ball in its upward path. I can release the ball about 10-15mm down from the exit and get the ball to transit through the rest of the 4 linked SMOT ramps. At 10-15mm down from the exit, the pull up the ramp is very gently as it is driven by the differential mag fields across the ball. > - the friction around the whole loop is *extremely* low, > > - net forward force around the loop then is zero, and the ball > essentially drifts around the loop for 100's of seconds because of the > tiny friction. Eventually it should slow enough to hang up at > one particular place. > > But if the ball rolls at constant average speed, and does NOT slow down > continously, then his explanation is wrong. The ball doesn't slow as it goes through the linked ramps. > Or, if the ball is instead > released at a "worst case" point in the loop, then the "launching" forces > will be minimal and the ball will be launched gently rather than > violently, and if it THEN speeds up to a higher average speed and > maintains this speed, his explanation is wrong. > > Interesting note: I originally imagined that the ball must lose all its > accumulated K.E. as it falls over a dropoff and bounces off the next rail. With the 90 deg exits, that is right! As many will tell you it goes "Click" > If so, and if the ball then continues to move, it must be an anomalous > event. Not so! Since the top of the previous rail pulls upwards on the > ball as it falls, energy is therefor stored in the magnetic field and the > ball is lowered gently. Energy is put back as the ball is drawn upwards > along the next slope. With perfect adjustment, the ball might touch down > onto the next rail at zero velocity and lose no K.E. at all. No "click" > sound. Therefore the net friction around the whole loop might be very low > after all, it might be nearly equivalent to a perfectly flat circular > track having no magnets! Weird! I have never seen a ball at exit, gently lowered to the entry of the next ramp. They go "Click" quite loudly. > William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 Hi Bill, Seems you still haven't built a SMOT ramp yet. Your Wierd Science Page got me into this. Could say that you are the Grand Father of SMOT. You at least owe me to build a ramp and play. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 04:21:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA16843; Sat, 31 May 1997 03:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <338FE721.2BD8 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:23:53 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: My magnets sizes are same as Naudin's References: <338F3741.213CAB7E verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0zC3o3.0.w64.IA0ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > Hi, > > I have difficulties on working on one ramp and linking. My new magnets > sizes are 25 x 40 x 10 (N-S=10). Magnets are very strong and this is > point where the problem start. I have pointed out before that strong magnets are NOT an advantage in SMOT ramps. > I could not open the aperture between > magnets more to loose the exit because I need at least 25 mm to climb. > On even optimum position ball weight is enough to fall down. It is 17 mm > diameter bearing ball. It was easier to working with the flexible > magnets. I strongly recommend again Greg's specs. But it is too late for > me. Try shorter ramps, they work better than long ramps. More differential across the ball. Try it, it might help. > By the I found an other style to stack the magnets and it show very > interesting effect on accelerating the ball. I will not to describe it > at this moment for not disturbing the concentration of the team. > > Regards, > > Hamdi Ucar Hi Hamdi, Send me more info in private and I will help you to get linking working. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 04:34:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA10020; Sat, 31 May 1997 04:27:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:27:32 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:25:33 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Hartman 4,215,330, SMOT, etc. not public domain? Resent-Message-ID: <"R6rQy.0.US2.Zi0ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: It appears it is a critical issue as to whether the renewal fees on the Hartman patent 4,215,330 have been paid up. If so, then the intellectual property is not public domain, as the patent expires Jul.29, 2000. I say this primarily because of claim 12, an independent claim that appears to have a very broad coverage, especially of the things discussed here on vortex: "12. In a permanent magnet propulsion system the combination of: a pair of tracks; and a row of permanent magnets mounted directly outboard from each of said tracks with all north seeking poles of the magnets of one of said rows being adjacent one of said tracks and all south seeking poles of the magnets of the other of said tracks being adjacent to the other said tracks." Any two inventions falling within the same set of claims are the same invention. To fall outside the scope of existing claims any new claims have to be proven non-obvious to one who is skilled in the art. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 04:48:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA00696; Sat, 31 May 1997 04:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33900775.4252 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:41:49 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT - residual magnetization References: <3397ca98.26448983 mail.eisa.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OB5eq.0.kA.Hb0ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > If the ball is slowly becoming magnetised, then it will also have a > tendency to keep the same poles toward the magnets time after time. > It might be interesting to paint an N and an S on the ball (stop it > during one of its hikes up the ramp), and see if it maintains its > orientation over many tours of the circuit. > At the moment, only Greg would appear to be in a position to do this. > > Robin van Spaandonk Hi Robin, I looked at that very early in the development cycle. While there seemed to be some linking of ball position, I believe it was more related to frictional costs in moving the ball sideways. By the way, circular ramps are much more lossy than straight ramps. One side of the ball is always sliding. Curved ramps work, but they are a bitch (sorry ladies no insult intended). They eat energy. As I mentioned before, the ball moves through fields of different curl. The domains are always moving. The RMOD is very different to the SMOT. The balls DO NOT move (rotate) as they return. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 05:02:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA13916; Sat, 31 May 1997 05:01:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 05:01:36 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:59:35 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: No apparent excess momentum Resent-Message-ID: <"N7UJ81.0.IP3.VC1ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:07 PM 5/30/97, Jed Rothwell wrote: >To: Vortex > >I visited Terry Blanton and his one-ramp SMOT machine. Then I built one >similar to his, using as many parts in common as I could find. I spent the >last few hours learning to use it, and testing for excess momentum. Blanton >reported: > > At first the exit point was equal to the entrance point in elevation. > The ball started from a stopped position and left the exit with > significant momentum. I then elevated the exit end of the assembly > (using more tiles) and could get the ball to exit the arrangement up to > an angle of approximately 20 degrees with remaining momentum. > >I have not been able to measure any apparent excess momentum. > [snip] >Unlike Blanton, I have not been able to draw the ball uphill against any >significant gradient. I do not know why this is so. Perhaps the magnets are >different. [snip] > >- Jed And corrected diagram: >"ttttttt" = track >"mmm" = one magnet >"C" = blob of clay behind the magnet arrays > > C > C mmmm > C mmmm mmmm > C mmmm mmmm mmmm > mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm >ttttttttttttttttttttttttttt > mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm > C mmmm mmmm mmmm > C mmmm mmmm > C mmmm > C > >Note the track "ttttt" ends before the magnet array. This may seem like a silly question, but since no one else is going to ask I feel compelled: are the magnets m all oriented with N pole facing the same direction? The reason for asking this is the implied functionality of the clay C. If the magnets are properly all aligned the same direction then the tiles will be attracted to each other instead of repelled, so there should be no functionality to the clay - only the tape holding the magnets to the tiles is preventing their attraction across the track. If things are aligned correctly then the tiles should be greatly attracted, not repelled. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 05:05:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA09330; Sat, 31 May 1997 04:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33900C94.5A9 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:03:40 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT bank account details References: <338F9C30.2C12 microtronics.com.au> <338FE366.4D77@loc1.tandem.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8_9sm.0.hH2.lt0ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bob Horst wrote: > > Greg -- > > I was wondering if there is a Western Union office near you. If so, we > can call Western Union at a toll-free number, give them a credit card > number, and have them wire you the money for the kits. It would be much > easier for us, you would get your money faster, and we would get the > kits faster. Direct TT is faster and better. > By the way, I got my new magnets and built the first ramp. Dimensions > are now close to yours, but with five more powerful magnets on each side > of the ramp in single rows. The magnets are 5/8 x 13/16 x 1/2, 5 oz > pull, 20 for $10, Edmund Scientific part number T53,556. > > I get about 17mm lift with one ramp and a 3/4 inch ball. To link the > ramps, it looks close. The magnets are 5/8 inch (16mm) high, giving me > about a mm to spare. Have not yet attempted linking them yet because the > fields are so strong I am not sure how I will anchor the magnets. You could have problems, that why I suggest max magnet height of 75% of lift heigth. Seem to work ok. > -- Bob Hi Bob and others, You can send money directly to my bank account. My bank (ANZ) charges me $10 Aust to process the TT : If you wish to remit funds via TT please send $160 Australian Dollars to : Acount Name : Mr. and Mrs. GO Watson, Account Number : 015-035 5774-67879 Bank : Australian and New Zealand Banking Group Ltd., (ANZ) 201 Victoria Square, Adelaide, 5001, South Australia, Australia. Advise request : Please advise Greg Watson on 8270 2737 of senders details. As banks sometimes get things wrong, please advise me when you send a TT. Hope this helps, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 05:11:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA12125; Sat, 31 May 1997 04:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33900DDF.7B41 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:09:11 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT works like this: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"H0UQg3.0.Jz2.4-0ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > >Epitaxy wrote: > >> > >> I think that Greg's next stage device, the RMOD, is NOT utilizing gravity > >> and would work in gravityless environment. > >> > >> Right Greg ? > > > >Hi Epitaxy, > > > >RMOD Mark I ..... Gravity needed. > > > >RMOD Mark II .... Gravity NOT needed. > > (Still sims and theory, but looking good and powerfull) > > > > > >Best Regards, > > Greg > > What is RMOD Mark II? First I recall hearing of it. Did I miss something > while I was gone? Would't be anything like what I wrote about in "Closing > the Hartman device loop" would it? > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hi Horace, No. I mentioned a new RMOD device some time ago. How are the house modification going? Any spare time to build a SMOT ramp? Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 05:17:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA14605; Sat, 31 May 1997 05:10:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 05:10:33 -0700 Message-ID: <33901369.39B6 worldonline.nl> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 14:02:49 +0200 From: Ronald de Mol Organization: World Online X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Homepage Update Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"d2zbN.0.7a3.uK1ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Homepage Updated http://home.worldonline.nl/~catware/index.html -- Ronald. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 05:27:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA15972; Sat, 31 May 1997 05:24:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 05:24:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3390113F.398D microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:23:35 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hartman 4,215,330, SMOT, etc. not public domain? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ntvF51.0.Qv3.AY1ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > It appears it is a critical issue as to whether the renewal fees on the > Hartman patent 4,215,330 have been paid up. If so, then the intellectual > property is not public domain, as the patent expires Jul.29, 2000. > > I say this primarily because of claim 12, an independent claim that appears > to have a very broad coverage, especially of the things discussed here on > vortex: > > "12. In a permanent magnet propulsion system the combination of: a pair of > tracks; and a row of permanent magnets mounted directly outboard from each > of said tracks with all north seeking poles of the magnets of one of said > rows being adjacent one of said tracks and all south seeking poles of the > magnets of the other of said tracks being adjacent to the other said > tracks." > > Any two inventions falling within the same set of claims are the same > invention. To fall outside the scope of existing claims any new claims > have to be proven non-obvious to one who is skilled in the art. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hi Horace, If you remember when I started the SMOT discussion I clearly said the device was based on the patent 4,215,330. I encouraged people to read and review the patent. I provided links to the IBM patent server. I am not trying to take anything away from Hartman. BUT the Simple Magnetic Ou Toy is not the Hartman patent. There are several major innovations and improvements some of which are unique to SMOT : 1) The way the ball magnetically exits is different. 2) The way the differential field is achieved and constructed is different. 3) The way the entry and exit fields are adjusted is different. One adjustment, NOT forty or more. And they all track. Adjusting the Hartman device would be very difficult 4) The use of the steel backing plate is new and unique. The SMOT (as designed) will not work without the backing plate. Horace, I am not trying to take anything away from Hartman, only take his work to the next level. Read my earlier posts, most of my earlier corro referenced Hartman. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 05:32:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA27621; Sat, 31 May 1997 05:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 05:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:23:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: When can I Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"QKrSz3.0.Vl6.QX1ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo, When can I buy a CF heater and power the whole damn block? When can I impress polite society with a fully working SMOT? Is this group serious, or merely jerking off... The answer my friend is blowing in the perpetual wind, The answer is blowing in the wind, (Ahh ga! Heart pains!) Remi. Where can I get some Tom Learer? Isn't there a Learer Server? Something like 'http://www.lifesabitch.habloodyha.com' 'All the estab. folks hate the CF folks, All the CF folks hate the PM folks, Most PM folks hate you all folks, It's as American as apple pie.' Bye, bye, I'm going to do something healthy, like go for a nice social run around the park and meet people instead of being a square eyed vortex nerddd. Ha! Vortex aka 'Tool time'. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 05:36:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA28239; Sat, 31 May 1997 05:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 05:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33901812.47A0 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:52:42 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT now in 6 Phases and linked to the SMOT kits Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gjUwa2.0.yu6.vY1ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Due to the use of the SMOT kit, I have modified the Phases as follows : 1) Single SMOT ramp construction. 2) Linking of 4 SMOT ramps on a level surface. 3) Achieving an increase of final lift height from 12mm to 24mm by mounting the 4 linked ramp on a board and lifting one end slowly up by 12mm. 4) Achieving a roll away. (First real proof of Ou) 5) Achieving a roll around of the ball back to the start. (Second real proof of Ou) 6) Achieving a repeat of 5. (Third real proof of Ou) Can we all agree on the above AND can we ALL accept Phases 4 - 6 as proof of Ou. We NEED real mile posts to work to. I will provide the STANDARD kits. Others will provide the sleepless nights getting every closer to the mile posts and feeling like a million dollars as they pass and see them in the rear vision mirror. But we need mile posts EVERYONE will accept. Can we get them? They should NOT be set by me. I should only suggest. They should link to the reality of the SMOT kits and many replicators of varying skills in many places around our shrinking planet. They should not be mile posts that can only be achieved or measured in someones lab, but instead on someones kitchen table by human eyes and hands. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 06:09:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA19438; Sat, 31 May 1997 06:08:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 06:08:31 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 05:06:32 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Ball Magnetization and Ramp Type Resent-Message-ID: <"STSoA2.0.el4.EB2ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: It is easy to understand how gradual ball magnetization can add energy to the system. It is equivalent to gradually increasing the strength of the ramp magnets, because the ball is attracted more strongly into the ramp on each go round due to greater mutual attraction. This is due to the tendency for the ball to align its magnetic axis with the ramp magnets' fields, thus increasing the mutual attraction as the ball magnetizes. Therefore, if each pass increases ball magnetization, the circumstance is equivalent to a non-magnetizeable ball passing through a succession of ramps with increasingly powerful magnets. It is also of interest that magneitzed balls would do poorly in a ramp made of tubing instead of rails, due to the force maintaining the magnetic axis allignment with the ramp magnets. It still seems to me that ramps made of hard plastic or glass tubing, even if open topped for convenience and to reduce air resistance, would be superior to rails, due to single friction point vs 2 for a rail. An evacuated glass tubing track sounds like it would work especially well. It might also put one outside the scope of existing patent protections. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 06:36:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA24873; Sat, 31 May 1997 06:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 06:31:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" (by way of "Frederick J. Sparber" ) Subject: Re: Pond Evaporation Rate Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:29:49 +0000 Message-ID: <19970531132943.AAB17508 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"7_nGI1.0.X46.cW2ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:02 PM 5/31/97 +0000, you wrote: Thanks, Remi. This is a "real world" problem. A friend up the road runs a dry-lot dairy and is milking over 1,000 holsteins. The washdown water from the milking parlor goes into a couple of lagoons that are lined on the bottom so that the nitrates don't get into the ground water. (they don't need them for gunpowder these days :-)) With newer environmental laws (and a retired environmental engineer-neighbor) :-) he cannot empty the lagoons onto the neighbor's alfalfa fields, so for the present we are looking at natural evaporation to get rid of about 0.75 inches/day. Then going to a sprinkler system to turn the 6 square ft/ft^3 of water into 1,152 ft^2 with 0.0625 inch water droplets (more or less). At 200 gpm and the right sprinkler heads against about 140 ft total head it is going to take about 10 horsepower to run the sprinkler system to hopefully evaporate about 20,000 gallons of pond water/day. The ponds have a scum on the surface that significantly reduces the evaporation loss. (mucus from the manure, I guess) and lots of frogs. I have been toying with using the exhaust heat from an I.C. engine to heat a water-manure slurry to 300 F 50 psig or so, and venting this through an orifice into the air intake of a diesel to see if it will burn, or into a spark ignition engine that uses a small amount of "pilot" fuel to ignite the solid fuel. I have looked at dust explosion data that indicates that this should work,if the 18% or so ash in the manure doesn't foul the engine. The dust explosion minimum concentration is about 0.06 ounces/ft^3 and around 1,000 deg F. The exhaust gases can be wet scrubbed to keep the particulates out of the atmosphere. I need to bread-board this and try it with some pipe and an electric heater-steam generator and an engine, when I get a chance. But, for now we need to get ahead of the wastewater-manure inventory. Not exactly Dick Feynman level science. :-) But, Nick Vantol's dairy is feeding lots of kids ice cream. :-) Regards, Frederick >Frederick, > >Get some steam tables (volume of saturated air holding 1 Kg of water >vapour). Look up for 1 atm and 27 oC the volume. Estimate (you have to >satisfy yourself on a satisfactory model for this) the height of a >saturated layer of air just above the pond, assume it replenishes itself >almost instaneously. Then consider this being wafted away by the wind. > >More satisfactory model for profile of saturated air above pond (probably >exponential) needs to take into account depletion of air by wind. Simple >in principle to form the diff. eqn. but I can't think of the model which >gives the rate of replenishment - this surely has something to do with >the rate at which the pond can supply the latent heat for evaporation, >and the diffusitivity of the vapour into the air. One no doubt, could >form a largely 'empirical' model with unknown constants to be inserted by >experiment. > >I may have a go at it if I have time. Have fun. Busy reading Feynman >Electomganetics (second volume) - now there's an educator. A truly >generous person with a wonderful legacy of his three volume Feynman >lecture set. > >Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 06:37:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA25529; Sat, 31 May 1997 06:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 06:33:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: When can I Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:29:45 +0000 Message-ID: <19970531132943.AAA17508 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"EbODs1.0.mE6.LY2ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:23 PM 5/31/97 +0000, Remi wrote: >Dear Vo, > >When can I buy a CF heater > and power the whole damn block? > >When can I impress polite society > with a fully working SMOT? > >Is this group serious, > or merely jerking off... > >The answer my friend is blowing in the perpetual wind, >The answer is blowing in the wind, > >(Ahh ga! Heart pains!) > >Remi. > >Where can I get some Tom Learer? Isn't there a Learer Server? >Something like 'http://www.lifesabitch.habloodyha.com' > >'All the estab. folks hate the CF folks, > All the CF folks hate the PM folks, > Most PM folks hate you all folks, > It's as American as apple pie.' > >Bye, bye, I'm going to do something healthy, like go for a nice social run >around the park and meet people instead of being a square eyed vortex nerddd. >Ha! Vortex aka 'Tool time'. > Hear! Hear, Remi. I was away from the Vo group over last weekend. Tuesday morning there were 152 "messages" on such crap.stacked up. Seems that the old Russian Proverb, "A Strangers Tears Are Water" rings true for this group. :-( I forwarded our exchange to Vortex in the hope to drive home the point that there are, as Carlos Castano pointed out, people out there who need merely to survive, Not Toys. Best Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 07:37:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA11203; Sat, 31 May 1997 07:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 06:13:17 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: SMOT works like this: Resent-Message-ID: <"LhoRB2.0.wk2.lE3ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Epitaxy wrote: >> >> I think that Greg's next stage device, the RMOD, is NOT utilizing gravity >> and would work in gravityless environment. >> >> Right Greg ? > >Hi Epitaxy, > >RMOD Mark I ..... Gravity needed. > >RMOD Mark II .... Gravity NOT needed. > (Still sims and theory, but looking good and powerfull) > > >Best Regards, > Greg What is RMOD Mark II? First I recall hearing of it. Did I miss something while I was gone? Would't be anything like what I wrote about in "Closing the Hartman device loop" would it? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 07:37:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA11170; Sat, 31 May 1997 07:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 06:13:20 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Hartman 4,215,330, SMOT, etc. not public domain? Resent-Message-ID: <"K7eTU3.0.Sk2.gE3ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] > > >Horace, I am not trying to take anything away from Hartman, only take >his work to the next level. > >Read my earlier posts, most of my earlier corro referenced Hartman. > > >Best Regards, > Greg I am having difficulty communicating again I see, so please bear with me. It seems like sometinmes I have to say things lots of different way before I can get my meaning across. I am not saying you are intentionally trying to take anything away from Hartman. I know you discussed Hartman and provided the patent number. What I am saying is his claims appear to be very broad, and certainly appear to encompass SMOT. It appears you are basing your understanding of Hartman's invention and property rights based on the technical description - which does teach and does give what Hartman considers a "best implementation". However, it is the *claims* which truly describe the invention, and which determines royalty rights, etc. It is good to take the work to a next level, and to evangelize the field, but that does not eliminate the scope of Hartman's patent, which has very broad claims. Simply stated, if you have a permanent magnet propulsion system with tracks and magnets along side the tracks, you have a Hartman device. Any improvements to the details, if proven to be both utilitarian and non-obvious, might be patentable, but don't exclude Hartman's (or other assingnees') prior right to royalties and control if his patent is still in effect. Even if you were to successfully patent improvements to Hartman's invention, if they fall within the broader scope of his existing claims he still has primary control while his patent is in effect. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 07:38:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA12824; Sat, 31 May 1997 07:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:26:11 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:19:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970531101935_-1597789821 emout20.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: to much chatter Resent-Message-ID: <"GPt531.0.I83.uJ3ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am now deleting over 90% of the vortex messages. The ones that I do read I only read the first few lines. There is two much chatter to be read. I planing to go to the nuclear conference on Orlando next week followed up by a visit to NASA Marshall in Alabama to see Witt Brantley and his gravitational experiments. I trying to land a summer job at Marshall as an intern and me be sucessful in doing so. I will not chatter but I will give a brief account of what I saw. Frank Znidarsic fznidarsic aol.com 481 Boyer St. http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html Johnstown, Pa. 15906 Automatic links: Home_Page Send_E-mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 08:36:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA04737; Sat, 31 May 1997 08:31:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:31:53 -0700 To: freenrg-L eskimo.com Cc: vortex-L eskimo.com Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:21:15 PST Subject: Why SMOT is O/U Message-ID: <19970321.082117.12526.0.tv juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-23 From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan) Resent-Message-ID: <"OlG-S.0.x91.dH4ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Fellow Pioneers, The Simple Magnetic Overunity Toy is a free energy machine and a real perpetual motion machine of the 2nd kind !! Why ? Can you think of a single example of an energy source that does not have some element that goes from a higher potential energy to a lower potential ? What part of a closed loop SMOT is doing this ? If some of the ferromagnets where settling into a lower energy state I think it would become obvious very quickly. The precisely adjusted SMOT would quit very quickly, not run for hours as Greg Watson has demonstrated. I doubt it would even make more than one loop ! It is interesting that this idea of "magnets running down" was used to attempt to explain away the inventions of both Wesley Gary and Hans Coler. Rather than try to explain away this amazing phenomena, try making one a SMOT ramp they are easy to make and fun ! They make great toys for older kids. Tim Vaughan (tv juno.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 09:28:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA27818; Sat, 31 May 1997 09:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: 31 May 97 09:15:38 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Magnet stacks repel Message-ID: <970531131537_72240.1256_EHB82-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"VEwRD1.0.ao6.235ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Horace Heffner asks: Are the magnets m all oriented with N pole facing the same direction? Yes. I have tried it various other ways too. You get interesting effects with reversed poles and gaps between stacks. The reason for asking this is the implied functionality of the clay C. If the magnets are properly all aligned the same direction then the tiles will be attracted to each other instead of repelled, so there should be no functionality to the clay . . . The clay is needed because the stacks repel one another. Also in order to keep the stacks vertical. It works like this: "A" = attract "R" = repel "N" = North pole of stack "S" = South pole of stack [Part of ramp showing seven magnets] R mmmm A mmmm R mmmm A A mmmm R mmmm N N ttttttttttttttt S S mmmm R mmmm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 09:29:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA27769; Sat, 31 May 1997 09:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: SMOT - residual magnetization To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:23:29 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <3397ca98.26448983 mail.eisa.net.au> from "Robin van Spaandonk" at May 31, 97 10:27:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FbLjb3.0.on6.k25ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > If the ball is slowly becoming magnetised, then it will also have a > tendency to keep the same poles toward the magnets time after time. > It might be interesting to paint an N and an S on the ball (stop it > during one of its hikes up the ramp), and see if it maintains its > orientation over many tours of the circuit. Yes! That would falsify the magnetization theory. I'd use something like a permanent "dry-marker". The coating is so thin that it shouldn't interfer with the rolling action. Get a working loop device. Allow the ball to loop a few times. Then stop it with your finger, hold down the ball, and touch the dry-marker to one side or the other to mark it. Let the ball resume its travel and watch if the marked spot has any fidelity to its initial side. In a looped device, it'll have to keep reorienting itself to stay on the inside or outside of the loop. If it wanders about, then the ball magnetization fails as an explanation. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 09:35:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA15039; Sat, 31 May 1997 09:33:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:33:27 -0700 Date: 31 May 97 12:31:57 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: No apparent excess momentum Message-ID: <970531163157_76016.2701_JHC58-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"zHsYI1.0.sg3.MB5ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> Based on what I saw, I do not think Blanton can claim he is sure the ball rolled away at a higher elevation than the starting position. << Sure you can, Jed. Remember, you had to push the ball up the ruler to the catch point; otherwise it rolled backward. Therefore the ruler was inclined. You can come back Monday and see it again if you wish. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 09:37:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA28778; Sat, 31 May 1997 09:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Hartman 4,215,330, SMOT, etc. not public domain? To: vortex-l eskimo.com (vortex-l) Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:33:49 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <3390113F.398D microtronics.com.au> from "Greg Watson" at May 31, 97 09:23:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9gNNg1.0.a17.QC5ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > BUT the Simple Magnetic Ou Toy is not the Hartman patent. There are > several major innovations and improvements some of which are unique to > SMOT : If we had to build the complicated Hartman device instead of Greg's much simpler device, no one would be bothering to replicate. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 09:42:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA15642; Sat, 31 May 1997 09:38:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:38:26 -0700 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:38:17 +0800 (SGT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970601003829.2fff909c po.pacific.net.sg> X-Sender: mpowers8 po.pacific.net.sg X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mpower Subject: Re: Magnet stacks repel Resent-Message-ID: <"M3Eg43.0.Hq3.1G5ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell posted the following (edited for brevity) at 09:15 1997.05.31 EDT: >To: Vortex > >Horace Heffner asks: > > Are the magnets m all oriented with N pole facing the same direction? > >Yes. I have tried it various other ways too. You get interesting effects with >reversed poles and gaps between stacks. Interesting modification. Have you, uh, read the literature in this field ? just curious... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 09:59:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA18203; Sat, 31 May 1997 09:54:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:54:56 -0700 Message-ID: <33905823.3B16 skypoint.com> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:56:03 -0500 From: John Logajan Organization: Skypoint Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Barry's explanation References: <199705310809.BAA16786 joshua.math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"F7VdH3.0.LS4.VV5ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: > > - the friction around the whole loop is *extremely* low, > > Yes (though I have not quantified eddy losses---perhaps they > are not low, or perhaps they are) Both eddy current losses and friction losses must always be necessarily less than the driving force. So if the driving force (anomalous or otherwise) is slight, the losses will be slighter. If the friction losses are greater than the driving force, the ball will never move in the first place, or at least not very far. And, of course, eddy current losses will not occur in a stationary ball. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 10:34:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA04807; Sat, 31 May 1997 10:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:33:09 -0700 (PDT) From: HLafonte aol.com Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:31:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970531133147_-229238444 emout06.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT - residual magnetization Resent-Message-ID: <"Pvn9N.0.1B1.I36ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John, Have you ever heard that wraping a 120 volt 60 cycle AC cord around the ball would demagnetize it? Butch LaFonte From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 11:03:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA28995; Sat, 31 May 1997 10:58:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:58:40 -0700 Date: 31 May 97 13:56:47 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Revised ASCII schematic Message-ID: <970531175647_76016.2701_JHC66-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"jDJei2.0.z47.FR6ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed sed: My crude schematic got changed by WordPerfect. It is supposed to look like this: "ttttttt" = track "mmm" = one magnet "C" = blob of clay behind the magnet arrays C C mmmm C mmmm mmmm C mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm ttttttttttttttttttttttttttt mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm C mmmm mmmm mmmm C mmmm mmmm C mmmm C ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Maybe you have too much field, Jed. Remove some magnets. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 11:45:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA01905; Sat, 31 May 1997 11:43:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:43:47 -0700 Date: 31 May 97 14:42:37 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: No (readily) apparent excess momentum Message-ID: <970531184237_72240.1256_EHB35-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"2KlEW.0.cT.Y57ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I wrote: Based on what I saw, I do not think Blanton can claim he is sure the ball rolled away at a higher elevation than the starting position. Terry, reasonably enough, responds: Sure you can, Jed. Remember, you had to push the ball up the ruler to the catch point; otherwise it rolled backward. Therefore the ruler was inclined. Yes, of course. I have mine working up a tiny incline too. But I didn't mean what I said here. What I meant to say is, I am not sure what the elevation of the ramp is, in millimeters. I cannot measure it. More important, I am not sure the ball is moving away from the end of the ramp with anything like "excess momentum" from the kick of the magnets. It looks to me it is moving at random. I have not investigated in detail, but I saw no pattern in the fall or resting point. There is plenty of energy from the fall off the end of the ramp, and that KE could carry it anywhere, depending on the spin and angle of the fall. It hits a spot which is no farther beyond the end of the ramp that it would go if the ramp continued. It should be understood that when you run the Smot in non-o-u "pendulum" mode, the ball enters the magnet pack, goes beyond, then drops back, and oscillates for a while until it stops at the strongest magnetic field. When the magnets are evenly spaced, the distance it shoots out the other end is, of course, just a little less then the offset from the other end where it started. I must emphasize that I have just begun to experiment with this thing, and I can draw no conclusions yet about the potential for o-u. However, based at my quick observations of Terry's machine at his office, I do not think he can either. Perhaps he did more methodical work at home. I noted that I have tried various configurations, with reversed poles and gaps between stacks, and I saw some interesting behavior. Mpower asks: Interesting modification. Have you, uh, read the literature in this field ? just curious... I have only read what has been posted here. When I say the results were "interesting" I mean they were instructive or amusing. I did not mean they showed any signs of o-u or any other surprising or anomalous behavior. They acted exactly as magnets aught to act, as far as I know. The south pole is precisely as strong as the north pole, and the energy you gain moving towards the magnet exactly equals the energy you must expend to move away from it. This is the principle I have tried to explain to Merriman. It utterly prevents any stationary permanent magnet from shooting a ball down a track. There does not appear to be any way to cheat the thing, but I have hardly started looking yet. Of course, other people have been looking for centuries, so it is reasonable to think there is no way, but one cannot be certain. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 11:52:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA03013; Sat, 31 May 1997 11:51:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:51:31 -0700 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:51:24 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Segner-Marinov Turbine Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"cb30B1.0._k.oC7ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is everyone aware that the Segner-Marinov turbine mentioned in the latest INFINITE ENERGY has a direct connection to the "Clem" device? Marinov's device didn't work, but according to the "Clem" story, a successful version of the same effect was discovered in a commercial pump. http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/energy/clem1.asc http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/diagrams/Clem2/index.html http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/diagrams/CLEM1.GIF">CLEM1.GIF >From the Keelynet mirror site at Elektromagnum. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 12:36:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA08343; Sat, 31 May 1997 12:31:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:31:50 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970531123203.00af5ac0 mail.localaccess.com> X-Sender: epitaxy mail.localaccess.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:32:04 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Epitaxy Subject: Re: SMOT now in 6 Phases and linked to the SMOT kits Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"J0M2q2.0.F22.ao7ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I already have done the friction experiment and posted the results on vortex-l and freenrg-l. I think barry did the math on the results. Pay attention. At 01:23 PM 5/31/97 -0400, you wrote: >In order to get to that point I and others have suggested measuring the >friction loss of the ball rolling on the track, and I've also suggested >measuring the energy of a falling ball as compared to one rolling down a >ramp from the same vertical height. These combined experiments should >show if indeed the magnets are imparting any energy to the ball that >cannot be explained with gravity alone. Greg A. Woods > >+1 416 443-1734 VE3TCP robohack!woods >Planix, Inc. ; Secrets of the Weird > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 12:41:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA18523; Sat, 31 May 1997 12:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: 31 May 97 15:36:34 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l Subject: C of E Message-ID: <970531193634_76016.2701_JHC53-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"b_Q2p3.0.JX4.ev7ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Snorts Vorts. Let's forget about Watson's device for an analysis. We have a closed system with a stationary mass and at T=0+ we enter a small amount of energy to move the mass into the magnetic field by impairing velocity ||V(x,z)||=S to the mass. At T=1 the ball exits strikes a horizontal surface and has the velocity ||V(x,y)||=M. We claim that S>>M. If the known potential energy of the system is unchanged and the kinetic energy has increased, have we not tapped an unknown energy source? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 13:25:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA23244; Sat, 31 May 1997 13:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <339080FD.20BA34CB verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:50:21 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: C of E X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970531193634_76016.2701_JHC53-1 CompuServe.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lVDGf3.0.tg5.hY8ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Terry, Congratulation. It seems that your device is reached to phase-4, the proof of OU. But as you described, it is not yet a closed system. The gained excess kinetic energy should be used to send the ball to the initial point and initial velocity for a closed system or loop. Remember that Greg Watson spend weeks for closing his own loop last month. I hope you will more lucky than him. You can use a slight inclination for supplying the initial velocity to the system. Also you can force the ball climb a ramp on the output. The differences of initial and final position will give exact value of the energy that you tapped from somewhere. Regards, Hamdi Ucar Terry Blanton wrote: > > Snorts Vorts. > > Let's forget about Watson's device for an analysis. We have a closed > system with a stationary mass and at T=0+ we enter a small amount of > energy to move the mass into the magnetic field by impairing velocity > ||V(x,z)||=S to the mass. At T=1 the ball exits strikes a horizontal > surface and has the velocity ||V(x,y)||=M. We claim that S>>M. > If the known potential energy of the system is unchanged and the kinetic > energy has increased, have we not tapped an unknown energy source? > > Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 13:27:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA23485; Sat, 31 May 1997 13:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:22:59 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Magnet stacks repel Resent-Message-ID: <"tRaN92.0.tk5.2b8ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:15 AM 5/31/97, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >"A" = attract >"R" = repel >"N" = North pole of stack >"S" = South pole of stack > >[Part of ramp showing seven magnets] > > R mmmm > A >mmmm R mmmm > A A >mmmm R mmmm > N N >ttttttttttttttt > S S >mmmm R mmmm Earlier: >Unlike Blanton, I have not been able to draw the ball uphill against any >significant gradient. I do not know why this is so. Perhaps the magnets are >different. [snip] Yes, looks good, so it must be the magnets. Thanks for responding. At least the thought won't nag at me now. Hmmm, that gives me a another thought though: could there be a *negative* experimenter effect? If some inventions require the experimenter's presence (mental energy) to work, maybe the functionality of some devices can be surpressed by certain observers! This would explain, for example, Scott's wonderfully precise null results with the Ragland cell, for example. Maybe someone at Earthtech has an ou suppressing tendency, or *negative ou quotient.* Possibly their brain absorbs any available excess ZPE in the vicinity for computational use. Yea, that's it Jed, you too must have a ZPE absorbing brain! 8^) More seriously, why not get together again and compare magnets, etc.? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 13:27:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA23525; Sat, 31 May 1997 13:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:23:03 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Hartman 4,215,330, SMOT, etc. not public domain? Resent-Message-ID: <"_OoRo3.0.Tl5.Ab8ap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:33 AM 5/31/97, John Logajan wrote: >Greg Watson wrote: >> BUT the Simple Magnetic Ou Toy is not the Hartman patent. There are >> several major innovations and improvements some of which are unique to >> SMOT : > >If we had to build the complicated Hartman device instead of Greg's >much simpler device, no one would be bothering to replicate. > > >-- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - That is good, it is a sign of improvement, novelty. It is an indication that maybe there are specific embodiments that Greg can patent as an improvement, especially for kit building. It still doesn't dismiss the broader Hartman claims. Let me say this another way:: If Hartman's patent is still in effect (which seems doubtful as it appears to be or have been involved in an estate), anyone making or selling the invention could be in some difficulty. Another way: Any entreprenueur who manufactures or even believes Hartman's device (or Greg's version) works, should check on the status of the patent and if it is in effect maybe beat a path to the doors of Ethel Hartman of Richmond Ind. or Detroit Bank and Trust, executor of the estate of Charles Helin. Then there is another smaller issue, but still important - that is the credit for the basic discovery or invention, assuming for a moment there is an ou phenomenon here, which is as yet a ways from confirmation. If Edison invents an evacuated glass envelope with enclosed electrically heated incandescent filiment, he is the inventor of the light bulb, even if his little carbon fiber bulb has small utility compared to todays's bulbs. If I discover that tungsten works much better, is brighter, lasts longer, etc., then I can patent that embodiment of the light bulb, and maybe make a lot of money, but not without Edison getting his cut, or even preventing me from competing with him, if his patent is still in effect. It also does not make me the first inventor of the light bulb, but rather inventor of the first really practical light bulb. Read the claims. Hartman spells out and claims all the basic ingredients, including stacking the ramps to achieve increasingly higher elevation and the use of multiple balls. He doesn't show using a piece of tubing or other means to feed the ball back to the beginning, but that is fairly obvious, and further, was posted here earlier, as was closing the loop by using a succession of ramps in a circle. Further, it would not be surprizing to find in the jacket of 4,215,330 that a closed loop version was proposed - and then denied by the examiner, Donovan F. Duggan, on the basis of perpetual motion. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 13:55:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA16833; Sat, 31 May 1997 13:52:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:52:13 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3397ca98.26448983 mail.eisa.net.au> from "Robin van Spaandonk" at May 31 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:50:48 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: SMOT - residual magnetization Resent-Message-ID: <"-dcYb2.0.x64.yz8ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > If it wanders about, then the ball > magnetization fails as an explanation. John - While a gradually magnetized ball might indeed be one possible way for a SMOT to fail, I think the real question here is *must* a SMOT fail every time after 'x' hours of running due to this effect? Will the ball definitely get magnetized every time in normal operation? Crashing into magnets while experimenting doesn't count as normal, and I realize Greg's answer to ball magnetization so far has been "no", and that your experiment could show that. I thought that you could use ferrite or some other iron alloy or ferromagnetic material (ball full of ferrofluid?) that strongly resists residual magnetism to avoid the question altogether, but maybe I'm wrong. Isn't this possible? If I understand correctly, Barry has proposed this magnetization differential between the starting condition and the ending condition as the very reason the thing runs in the first place. Well, that *does* make sense trivially, since the magnets must of course be able to attract a ferromagnetic object and not see that attraction come up to a bad value at the wrong moment. But doesn't the use of the materials mentioned above completely undo the argument for the effect being the reason the SMOT is not really overunity? If it keeps on running as long as the ball stays unmagnetized, and the ball *doesn't* get magnetized, then...where are the goalposts posted now? The moon? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 14:41:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA22846; Sat, 31 May 1997 14:39:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 14:39:41 -0700 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:36:27 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Ball bearings.... residual magnetization In-Reply-To: <970531133147_-229238444 emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"SSe8b2.0.ta5.Sg9ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., A common steel alloy beating can be demagnetiszed with a heavy bulk tape eraser. OR: You can make one by using 800 turns of # 14 AWG insulated wire around a 3 inch diameter by 5 inch tall form. Fill the form with cut pieces of 14 to 10 AWG steel wire. Baling wire is also very good. Nails will work. Pack tightly. Use 1:1 isolation transformer if you have one. 115 Volts AC from line for 30 seconds max on with 5 minutes off, minimum .... or leave off until cool to the touch. If you suspect you bearing is magnetised use good quality compass on table of wood or equivalent.... carefully turn ball to find maximum attraction of needle marked North.... this will be the south magnetic pole. It is possible to have more than one area magnetised. JHS On Sat, 31 May 1997 HLafonte aol.com wrote: > John, > Have you ever heard that wraping a 120 volt 60 cycle AC cord around the > ball would demagnetize it? > Butch LaFonte > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 14:41:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA22861; Sat, 31 May 1997 14:39:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 14:39:43 -0700 Date: 31 May 97 17:37:23 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Smot thoughts Message-ID: <970531213722_100433.1541_BHG66-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Bwp_m1.0.4b5.Tg9ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts, everyone, Greg wants agreed criteria for OU, but I think that's impossible and probably a waste of time. An online group can't decide things like that. If we ask two people here even for a definition of OU, we'd probably get three such. The history is interesting. Helmholtz, a medic, proposed the Principle of Energy Conservation in the 1840s, and based this (heretical) notion on the absence of perpetual motion machines after centuries of effort. The idea caught on, and is inextricably interwoven with all laws and theories proposed since. So much so that it is almost impossible for any of us to think outside it. Let's not try. Now, Barry proposes (I think) that the initial pull of the magnets will cause the ball to loop around the system for a very long time. Like Scott, I deny this possibility because of experience. For example, someone commented that the SMOT might look like a very low-friction closed loop of rails. But I can assure anyone who hasn't played with mechanical things that a half-inch ball will not roll around a track - no matter how perfect - for very long, no matter how hard you shove it. That's a simple engineering fact. Engineering produces facts, just like science does. For example, see the First Law of Chemical Engineering: "Any piece of pipe which has been cut to length will be too short." Let's try the ball magnetisation thing. Well, Epitaxy tells us that his iron filings-filled ball gives good performance. Some have said that the ball rolls because it is using the energy used to magnetise the permanent magnets, others say that a permanent magnet has less energy when magnetised, others that the magnetisation of the ball gives it the apparent OU performance. Some have had balls that become magnetised, others (like myself) find that there is no trace of magnetisation in the ball despite its frequent impacts with big NIB magnets. What I will say is that I am thoroughly satisfied that a ball becoming magnetised will not make it roll around a loop for very long. Another simple fact. Just because some things do behave counter to our preconceptions doesn't mean that we can assign any micro-effect and use it to explain the macroscopic. As another aside, I would comment that there seems to be a certain lack of mutual agreement here on the energetics of permanent magnets. I have also noted that some standard texts do tend to start off confidently in their discussion of that subject, but taper off somewhat inconclusively as the unfortunate writer realises that he's got into a muddle. Personally, I would forget all this crud about how micro-effects will cause a ball to recycle for hours in the way Greg says. They won't. Forget it. Please. Greg, do NOT get irritated at what I say now. I'm working through the possibilities. On the one hand, why should we believe Greg? Well, he's been very open and amazingly helpful. He has published his findings, including the simulations which he says he has used as part of the design process. He's now got some pretty solid backing from partial replications - I would note especially the NZ one posted here yesterday. Let's look at that one. Here there were four 'good' linked ramps, with the ball climbing in each one. I would suppose that the ball was moving slowly as in entered the second ramp, and going at about the same speed as it entered the fourth one. Greater height, similar velocity, same mag potential - probably. That looks mildly anomalous, even if a continuing closed loop is essential for a proof. What exactly is Greg claiming? Well, it looks to me as if he is saying that the ball is in a continual energy gradient. When it's climbing in height, it's falling magnetically. It then uses its acquired height to punch through a mag 'hole'. So, even if there are mild 'energy humps' to overcome, there is enough acquired kinetic or grav energy to overcome them, and the steady overall 'downward' slope keeps it going. Is this impossible, we wonder? Ignoring C of E, we could do the simulations (as Greg appears to have done) and ignore the over-riding Principle. Now, if the simulations agree (as Greg says they do) then he has a prima facie case for an anomaly. Why, then, should we NOT believe Greg? Firstly, because Helmoltz had an excellent point - these things just don't happen. There have been 200 years in which people could have done this trick and shown everyone how, and that hasn't happened - even if, as Greg says, people may have pulled the trick and NOT shown people how. Then there is the dread Principle. There have been no very clear demonstrations that it's wrong. As for Barry's monetary challenge as to whether the device is OU, I doubt it has much relevance. I think he should answer the several questions that I have asked him, because I think that is how a scientist should approach an interesting problem and the reasonable questions it raises. *To return to my earlier point, I have to say that IF the simulations *are good and IF the SMOT really works, then the question of "where the *energy is coming from" is either irrelevant (because it simply assumes *a Principle which was based on the absence of SMOTs) or should be *addressed on the basis of how come a simulation based on known physical *laws can produce an OU device, when those same laws tell us that a SMOT *is not possible. Can our resident theorists address this problem, *because that is the REAL "theory" problem here. As to Remi's suggestion that the CF brigade would abhor a SMOT, let it be quite clear that Jed and Gene and I would welcome a SMOT-powered world with open arms. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 14:48:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA24270; Sat, 31 May 1997 14:46:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 14:46:46 -0700 Date: 31 May 97 17:44:48 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Tried fewer magnets Message-ID: <970531214448_72240.1256_EHB84-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"ndiYN1.0.5x5.5n9ap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Terry writes: "Maybe you have too much field, Jed. Remove some magnets." Tried that. I tried the exact 15 magnet configuration you used. Maybe the track needs lubrication. At this stage I am just trying to get a feel for it, and trying to think of a way to test for excess momentum. I do not think letting the ball flop off at the end is a viable test for this, because, as I said, it picks up a terrific amount of KE and it will go at random just about anywhere. Even when it flops onto another track the results are unpredictable. I think the only viable test for excess energy is a 2+ ramp system. With two sets of magnets on one level or climbing track, with a short gap between them, there is no way the ball will continue to move up. That's obvious, but I tested it anyway. It is easy to see why the thing should *not* work. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 15:32:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA30120; Sat, 31 May 1997 15:27:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 15:27:34 -0700 Date: 31 May 97 18:25:50 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Magnet stacks repel Message-ID: <970531222550_76016.2701_JHC85-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"L6_nT1.0.YM7.KNAap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: H. Heffner said: >>Hmmm, that gives me a another thought though: could there be a *negative* experimenter effect?<< I was wondering that today!! I was going to suggest to Tinsley that he consider telling someone (his daughter?) that he had successfully gotten the cell to work but ask them to duplicate his efforts as a senility check. Thus the experimenter would have a positive outlook on the experiment. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 15:48:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA11914; Sat, 31 May 1997 15:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 15:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3390A2A7.4CD8BA1C verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 02:13:59 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: C of E X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970531193634_76016.2701_JHC53-1 CompuServe.COM> <339080FD.20BA34CB@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zE05S.0.4w2.weAap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I forgot to ask something. This may be not a smart question but, did you checked your table is flat? Other questions: Do you have ramps? Did you used multiple or single module? Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 16:02:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA13869; Sat, 31 May 1997 15:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 15:59:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:01:28 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Smot thoughts Resent-Message-ID: <"XABEW.0.dO3.-qAap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Gnorts, everyone, > >Greg wants agreed criteria for OU, but I think that's impossible and >probably a waste of time. An online group can't decide things like >that. If we ask two people here even for a definition of OU, we'd >probably get three such. > >The history is interesting. Helmholtz, a medic, proposed the Principle >of Energy Conservation in the 1840s, and based this (heretical) notion >on the absence of perpetual motion machines after centuries of effort. >The idea caught on, and is inextricably interwoven with all laws and >theories proposed since. So much so that it is almost impossible for >any of us to think outside it. Let's not try. > snip--> >*To return to my earlier point, I have to say that IF the simulations >*are good and IF the SMOT really works, then the question of "where the >*energy is coming from" is either irrelevant (because it simply assumes >*a Principle which was based on the absence of SMOTs) or should be >*addressed on the basis of how come a simulation based on known physical >*laws can produce an OU device, when those same laws tell us that a SMOT >*is not possible. Can our resident theorists address this problem, >*because that is the REAL "theory" problem here. > >As to Remi's suggestion that the CF brigade would abhor a SMOT, let it >be quite clear that Jed and Gene and I would welcome a SMOT-powered >world with open arms. > >Chris Dear Chris, Thanks for your thoughtful and constructive post. As far as the underlying PEC, perhaps it is possible to _extend_ (rather than necessarily repudiate) scientific principles of nature into new domains. It would seem this has been true of Newton's "Law" of Gravitation. Best regards, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "Long term is what you become while you are busy doing something positive that will last longer than you will." --- SUZANNE J. GALAMBOS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 16:17:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA05674; Sat, 31 May 1997 16:15:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 16:15:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3390B087.5D4D microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 08:43:11 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT Kit Offer Update (1st June, 1997), Web sites please update Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NXRs9.0.DO1._3Bap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Here are the updated SMOT Kit and SMOT Phases details : ******************** Price : $150 Australian Dollars via International Bank Cheque made payable to Greg Watson Consulting. ~ 115 US Dollars, 70 UK Pounds, 660 French Francs, 158 Canadian Dollars, 3975 Belgium Francs, 195 German Marks, 13200 Japanese Yen, 165 New Zealand Dollars, 875 Swedish Krona, 192000 Italian Lira 1350 Austrian Schillings 160 Swish Francs Please remit funds via an International Bank Cheque in Australian Dollars. You can ALSO send money directly to my bank account. My bank (ANZ) charges me $10 Aust to process the TT : If you wish to remit funds via TT please send $160 Australian Dollars to : Acount Name : Mr. and Mrs. GO Watson, Account Number : 015-035 5774-67879 Bank : Australian and New Zealand Banking Group Ltd., (ANZ) 201 Victoria Square, Adelaide, 5001, South Australia, Australia. Advise request : Please advise Greg Watson on 8270 2737 of senders details. As banks sometimes get things wrong, please advise me when you send a TT. ******************** Where to send for your SMOT Kit : Greg Watson Consulting, 8 Brabham Grove, Aberfolye Park, 5159, South Australia, Australia. Contact Details : Home / Business / PC Fax .......... 61 8 8270 2737 E-Mail ............................ gwatson microtronics.com.au ******************** What you will get for your $150 dollars : 4 x Heat formed perspex bases (Numbered, dated and signed my me), 4 x Linking ramps with "S" curve exits, 1 x Linking ramp with 90 deg exit (Rollaway / Rollaround use), 8 x Assembled Magnet Arrays, 4 x Steel Balls, 8 x Dress Making Pins, 1 x Instruction Manual, 1 x Frameable "Certificate of Authenticity", 1 x Photo of ME with the 4 linked SMOT ramps, The SMOT kits are "Exec Desk" Quality. One kit will produce 4 "Exec Desk" Toys. ******************** Delivery : Via international postal air mail. ******************** My Personal Guarantee : Assuming that the ramps are placed on a flat level surface, I Greg Watson personal guarantee that : 1) The 4 SMOT ramps will work as individual ramps. A ball statring at rest will climb the ramp and drop out. start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 1) >>>>>>> This is Phase 1 of SMOT development and testing. 2) The 4 SMOT ramps will link and deliver a ball starting at rest to the end of the 4th linked ramp and drop out. start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 1) start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 2) start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 3) start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm. (Ramp 4) >>>>>>> This is Phase 2 of SMOT development and testing. If your SMOT kit can't do this, I will refund your money. ******************** Additional claims : Depending on your skill in adjusting the ramps and their linking, you should expect to achieve the following : 1) That the 4 linked ramps can be placed on a base board that will elevate the ramps at an angle and achieve a final ramp height at least twice the original height. The use of a board allows gradual increase of the ramp heights while you learn to power up the ramps. start at 0mm, climb to 15mm, drop to 3mm, (Ramp 1) start at 3mm, climb to 18mm, drop to 6mm, (Ramp 2) start at 6mm, climb to 21mm, drop to 9mm, (Ramp 3) start at 9mm, climb to 24mm, drop to 0mm. (Ramp 4) >>>>>> This is Phase 3 of SMOT development and testing. 2) That with the tilted linking achieved, the ball on exiting the final ramp will fall to the entry level and roll away from the ramp assemblies (staying at the entry level). (This is the first OU claim). >>>>>> This is Phase 4 of SMOT development and testing. 3) That with the rollaway achieved, a rollaround using plastic tubing will allow the ball to return to the start. (This is the second OU claim) >>>>>> This is Phase 5 of SMOT development and testing. 4) That with the rollaround achieved, the ball will re-enter the first ramp and repeat the process. (This is the third OU claim) >>>>>> This is Phase 6 and final stage of SMOT development and testing. ******************** I can't guarantee that YOU will achieve all of the above. To do so will depend on how good you get in adjusting the magnets. Many others will support my claim that getting the adjustments right can require hours of fiddling or minutes. It all depends on how much you understand the dynamics of the ramps. The more you play, the more you understand and the adjustments become second nature. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Web sites who WISH to display this offer for at least 3 months AND qualify to receive a FREE SMOT Kit, please contact me for the details. If you have already purchased a SMOT kit, I will refund your money. I will have photos of the finished SMOT kits available with-in a week. Best Regards, Good Smoting to all, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 16:50:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA10824; Sat, 31 May 1997 16:48:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 16:48:51 -0700 Date: 31 May 97 19:47:59 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: Magnet stacks repel Message-ID: <970531234758_100433.1541_BHG48-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"LgN3N2.0.2f2.YZBap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, > >>Hmmm, that gives me a another thought though: could there be a > *negative* experimenter effect?<< > > I was wondering that today!! I was going to suggest to Tinsley > that he consider telling someone (his daughter?) that he had > successfully gotten the cell to work but ask them to duplicate his > efforts as a senility check. Hmm. Perhaps our belief in C of E makes it real. Personally, I think that people's "vibes" are not relevant. Even if Jahn is right, minds can only effect probabilities - not solid science. Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 16:53:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA19665; Sat, 31 May 1997 16:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 16:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:49:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705312349.SAA24636 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Smot thoughts Resent-Message-ID: <"1dvfA1.0.7p4.xaBap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 17:37 5/31/97 EDT, Chris Tinsley wrote: >how come a simulation based on known physical >*laws can produce an OU device, when those same laws tell us that a SMOT >*is not possible. The simulation uses the standard physical laws to calculate its results. However, due to the fact that it breaks a complex 3-D problem down into small simple problems (this is the strategy behind Finite Element Analysis), it necessarily makes approximation errors. If the mesh is fine enough, the errors are negligible. If the mesh is too coarse, the errors are not negligible. Greg's Qfield program is limited to a VERY coarse mesh compared to the meshes we used, for example, to design a motor-generator for an energy-storage flywheel recently. We would often have 10 or 20 thousand nodes in a problem. I think Greg is limited to 500 nodes! If Greg's sims show the ramp to be o-u, I say it HAS to be due to mesh coarseness errors. NOTE: I am not saying above that Greg's device doesn't work. That remains to be seen. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 17:08:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA21323; Sat, 31 May 1997 17:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3390BC53.3B55 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 09:33:31 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs References: <199705310000.UAA27226 big.seorf.ohiou.edu> <338FAAFB.5D16@microtronics.com.au> <3390DBDE.41D2@tiac.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4AXQn3.0.rC5.mpBap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bob Shannon wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > > Science wig. sig. wrote: > > > > > > Greg, > > > Way don't you help try and explain your great idea. You don't need to > > > jump on other people, just help us figure out where the energy is coming > > > from. > > > > I only get annoyed at folks that make statements about the SMOT device > > and they have never even built one. If you want to shoot it apart, > > thats fine, but first build one. Only seems fair, right? > > Not if you invite theoretical discussion on the subject. Any exactly > why would > you assume that its remotely reasonable for you to set any limits on the > discussion > over an open list Greg? > > Think about that for a minute, you might learn something. Hi Bob, I fully believe in and support open discussion about SMOT. NO RESTRICTIONS. I also know that some wild ideas have flown about and that if a SMOT ramp had been played with before, the ideas could have been better directed. For the first time that I know, a quick, easy, low cost and simple to construct device has been placed in the public domain for all to play with and discuss. There is even video of the devices working to be viewed by all. When was the last time that happened? If the SMOT ramp required mega hours and/or dollars to build and a lab full of equipment to test, then more theory based discussion is to be expected. This has been the norm for most of the ideas presented on these groups. However, with SMOT that is NOT the case. For the first time, YOU can build a SMOT ramp in a few hours, play with it, think about what your eyes and hands are telling you. It then OPENS up a whole world of discussions based on the operational characteristics observed by so many. Pure theory based discussion is OK. Go for it. But I really believe YOU and all the rest of us will get a lot more out of the discussions once YOU have built a SMOT ramp. Thats why I keep on saying "Build a SMOT ramp, then talk". It improves the signal to noise ratio. My Very Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 18:20:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA28647; Sat, 31 May 1997 18:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3390CBE5.3507 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 10:39:57 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT balls becoming magnetised Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------50505B321CCC" Resent-Message-ID: <"OnQNR1.0.J_6.CoCap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------50505B321CCC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I have attached a simple Gif showing how any ferromagnetic material will react as it moves through the different mag fields in a SMOT ramp (or any field differential where reversal doesn't occur). The material will trace out what is called a "Minor Loop" as the ball moves from the area of smallest field (at the bottom of the ramp) to the area of largest field (at the top of the ramp) and back. I have never seen any references to the fact that a ferromagnetic material moving through a minor loop will climb higher and higher up its B/H curve and increase its residual magnetism. I have many years of designing and working with ferromagnetic and have never seen it happen. I don't believe it works like that. I am working on a SMOT theory which ties in Barry's ideas (which I partly agree with), the Rod & Coil demo Epitaxy and I presented here and my DNMEC effect experience. If I am right, the energy is coming from the ball and not the magnets. 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eeRQL1.0.VX5.GuCap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bob Shannon wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > I fully believe in and support open discussion about SMOT. > > > > NO RESTRICTIONS. > > > > I also know that some wild ideas have flown about and that if a SMOT > > ramp had been played with before, the ideas could have been better > > directed. > > > > For the first time that I know, a quick, easy, low cost and simple to > > construct device has been placed in the public domain for all to play > > with and discuss. There is even video of the devices working to be > > viewed by all. When was the last time that happened? > > > > If the SMOT ramp required mega hours and/or dollars to build and a lab > > full of equipment to test, then more theory based discussion is to be > > expected. This has been the norm for most of the ideas presented on > > these groups. However, with SMOT that is NOT the case. > > Whoa there, discussion of the theory plays just as important a role in an > easy to produce device as it does in a difficult to produce device. > > I fail to see your point here. For the first time, you can base discussion on a real device! > > For the first time, YOU can build a SMOT ramp in a few hours, play with > > it, think about what your eyes and hands are telling you. It then OPENS > > up a whole world of discussions based on the operational characteristics > > observed by so many. > > Clearly you prefer that anyone wishing to join the discussion has first built > your device. I guess you feel is unlikely people could discuss its operation > without first having built one. No, that's not so. Its just that, for most of us, the quality of the discussion seems higher once a device is built. > > Pure theory based discussion is OK. Go for it. But I really believe > > YOU and all the rest of us will get a lot more out of the discussions > > once YOU have built a SMOT ramp. > > > > Thats why I keep on saying "Build a SMOT ramp, then talk". > > > > It improves the signal to noise ratio. > > Your beginning to sound a bit like an 'infomercial' Greg, but I'll be happy > to do my part in keeping the SNR down by not posting on the subject from > now on. Hi Bob, That is NOT what I or this group needs. We need all the input we can get. Yours included!!!!!!!!!! Best Regards and Good Thinking, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 18:38:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA25284; Sat, 31 May 1997 18:37:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:37:12 -0700 Message-Id: <3390CB13.9FFDB53E verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 05:06:27 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex , Greg Watson Subject: Re:SMOT Kit Offer Update (1st June, 1997) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CM_87.0.tA6.69Dap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, This kit have historical value. I recommend that every one have one. Build or keep it as original package. It will be the most precious piece of the science museum in the next years. Greg, did you putting date and serial number on it? I am still cautious about announcing this kit on a WEB page. A friend of mine after who does not believe the miracle said after reading the KIT option "He already closed the loop in other way". He implied business. Regards, Hamdi Ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 18:57:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA05303; Sat, 31 May 1997 18:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3390D57B.1C83 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 11:20:51 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT Kit Offer Update (1st June, 1997) References: <3390CB13.9FFDB53E verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"iY0tg.0.dI1.eODap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > Hi, > > This kit have historical value. I recommend that every one have one. > Build or keep it as original package. It will be the most precious piece > of the science museum in the next years. Greg, did you putting date and > serial number on it? > > I am still cautious about announcing this kit on a WEB page. A friend of > mine after who does not believe the miracle said after reading the KIT > option "He already closed the loop in other way". He implied business. > > Regards, > > Hamdi Ucar Hi Hamdi, Each SMOT ramp's base will be serial numbered, dated and signed my me. And there are 4 in each kit. Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 19:28:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA31417; Sat, 31 May 1997 19:22:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 19:22:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3390DC62.6E61 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 11:50:18 +0930 From: Greg Watson Reply-To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT sims and mesh size Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------244366B57DAF" Resent-Message-ID: <"7vcyR1.0.pg7.2qDap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------244366B57DAF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I have attached the mesh I used to generate the "looking from the top" sims. As Scott says, I am limited to 500 nodes, but the guys at Quick Field claim to do some fancy footwork and produce results much finer than 500 nodes would otherwise produce. It seems to work. Anyway, here is the mesh in the raw. 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TAA12266 for billb@eskimo.com; Sat, 31 May 1997 19:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 19:49:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: revtec ptd.net Sat May 31 19:49:40 1997 Received: from mail.ptd.net (srv1.ptd.net [204.186.0.131]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA12208 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 19:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 25832 invoked from network); 1 Jun 1997 02:48:56 -0000 Received: from du108.con.ptd.net (HELO revtec.ptd.net) (204.186.47.108) by srv1.ptd.net with SMTP; 1 Jun 1997 02:48:55 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970531225300.007627d8 postoffice.ptd.net> X-Sender: revtec postoffice.ptd.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Old-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 22:53:00 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: jeff fink Subject: Watson vs Takahashi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: If those interested in SMOT would look at page 51 in IE vol 1 no. 5,6 you will see that Takahashi's motor runs on the same principle (whatever that is). Whereas Watson uses gravity to slip the ball out the side of the field, Takahashi uses a momentary electromagnetic pulse to bridge the field. Any comments? Jeff Fink From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 20:05:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA13561; Sat, 31 May 1997 20:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: 31 May 97 22:59:16 EDT From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Magnet stacks repel Message-ID: <970601025916_76016.2701_JHC68-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"KSuKA2.0.pJ3.XOEap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley said: >>Hmm. Perhaps our belief in C of E makes it real. Personally, I think that people's "vibes" are not relevant. Even if Jahn is right, minds can only effect probabilities - not solid science.<< I only offer the suggestion after reviewing the work of John Hutchison and remembering a particular good run on the craps table. In the former case, the effect of the experimenter was suggested by a physicist who had seen successful levitation by John's machines; but, was at a loss to explain why others could not replicate the effect. In the latter case, I "knew" what I would throw next and bet low when I "felt" the end coming. It only happened once but gave me a taste of how gambling could become addictive. Let's not trivialize the power of the mind. If you seek waves, you find waves. Others find particles. Maybe it is possible to kill Shroedinger's Cat. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 20:18:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA04084; Sat, 31 May 1997 20:11:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:11:07 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 22:14:07 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Smot thoughts Resent-Message-ID: <"baEzG1.0.e_.AXEap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [This is a re-post; received an incomplete confirmation...] >Gnorts, everyone, > >Greg wants agreed criteria for OU, but I think that's impossible and >probably a waste of time. An online group can't decide things like >that. If we ask two people here even for a definition of OU, we'd >probably get three such. > >The history is interesting. Helmholtz, a medic, proposed the Principle >of Energy Conservation in the 1840s, and based this (heretical) notion >on the absence of perpetual motion machines after centuries of effort. >The idea caught on, and is inextricably interwoven with all laws and >theories proposed since. So much so that it is almost impossible for >any of us to think outside it. Let's not try. > snip--> >*To return to my earlier point, I have to say that IF the simulations >*are good and IF the SMOT really works, then the question of "where the >*energy is coming from" is either irrelevant (because it simply assumes >*a Principle which was based on the absence of SMOTs) or should be >*addressed on the basis of how come a simulation based on known physical >*laws can produce an OU device, when those same laws tell us that a SMOT >*is not possible. Can our resident theorists address this problem, >*because that is the REAL "theory" problem here. > >As to Remi's suggestion that the CF brigade would abhor a SMOT, let it >be quite clear that Jed and Gene and I would welcome a SMOT-powered >world with open arms. > >Chris Dear Chris, Thanks for your thoughtful and constructive post. As far as the underlying PEC, perhaps it is possible to _extend_ (rather than necessarily repudiate) scientific principles of nature into new domains. It would seem this has been true of Newton's "Law" of Gravitation. Best regards, Evan Soule' Director of Information NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS josephnewman earthlink.net (504) 524-3063 P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684 Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html "Long term is what you become while you are busy doing something positive that will last longer than you will." --- SUZANNE J. GALAMBOS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 21:28:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA13074 for billb@eskimo.com; Sat, 31 May 1997 21:28:20 -0700 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:28:20 -0700 X-Envelope-From: ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net Sat May 31 21:28:17 1997 Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (mailhost.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.33]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA12994 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 21:28:16 -0700 Received: from LOCALNAME ([207.147.109.22]) by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA27215 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 04:27:31 +0000 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Tired Balls (was Re: Art Bell WANTS smot-x) Old-Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 04:27:31 +0000 Message-ID: <19970601042729.AAA27215 LOCALNAME> X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan wrote: >As Chris Tinsley has suggested, non-magnetized iron is really just >a horde of randomly aligned magnetic domains -- in a net higher energy >state. > >Therefore placing an un-magentized iron ball in the device is to put >a higher energy state object in the fields of the rail magnets. It takes energy to magnetize a ferromagnetic material. Hpyothetically, some of the energy used in setting up the magnetic field is stored in the permanent magnet. Therefore, the magnetized material is in a higher state of energy than the one with the randomized domains, contrary to the preceeding paragraph. Energy is used in any change of domain orientation. The question is whether a magnetic field can do work (closed cycle). If it can, as seems the case here, then a magnetized material is in a higher state of energy than before it is magnetized and the SMOT is not only continuously running without conventional energy input, it is storing energy in the magnetic field of the ball. >Since Chris suggests that these rail magnets cannot become de-magnetized >without energy being added, by reverse logic, the ball cannot become >magnetized without giving up energy. > Isn't an ordered system at higher state of potential energy than a random one, all else being equal, as in this case? >This hypothesis suggests that balls do indeed get tired -- tired to >the extent that they get magnetized. Therefore if this conjecture >is true, the balls must eventually roll to a stop. > This is awfully reminiscent of Bearden's references to re-guaging, as in Takahasi, Johnson motors Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 21:39:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA21636; Sat, 31 May 1997 21:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706010436.VAA00171 iceland.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: SMOT balls becoming magnetised Resent-Message-ID: <"DdJxL3.0.rH5.IoFap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Greg, Interesting graph of the steel ball B/H curve. It would explain why the ball moves uphill. If the energy is coming from the ball, how did it get there? It had to come from or be energied from the magnetic field? ZPE or aether still seems to be the extra source for this I would speculate on. Best Regards, Michael At 10:39 AM 6/1/97 +0930, you wrote: >Hi All, > >I have attached a simple Gif showing how any ferromagnetic material will >react as it moves through the different mag fields in a SMOT ramp (or >any field differential where reversal doesn't occur). > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 21:42:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA21653; Sat, 31 May 1997 21:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706010436.VAA00233 iceland.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: SMOT Phase 2 Details Resent-Message-ID: <"NAbnZ3.0.EI5.LoFap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Greg, The "S" curve works much better than the 90 deg or 45 deg. I just used a grinding wheel and got it right the first time. I estimated a 25% improvement in efficiency/easier for the ball to exit. Didn't understand when you mentioned the "S" curve before. The drawings really helped, thanks. Best Regards, Michael At 08:18 AM 5/30/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: >Hi All, > >Attached is a gif showing two treatments that can be used on the exit of >the ramp. The simple one I used initially as the "S" curve is difficult >to cut using hand tools and I wanted a high initial strike rate on the >SMOT Phase 1 devices. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 21:46:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA16076; Sat, 31 May 1997 21:45:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:45:00 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970601025916_76016.2701_JHC68-1 CompuServe.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:43:50 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Magnet stacks repel Resent-Message-ID: <"DXhsj.0.6x3.BvFap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry - > If you seek waves, you find waves. I seek 'em, dude. But all we've got is 1' to 2' of wind-blown mush. Do I have to close the SMOT loop before a big south swell will arrive? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 22:00:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA23317; Sat, 31 May 1997 21:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Comments: Authenticated sender is From: ben clubelite.com (Ben Tammetta) To: gwatson microtronics.com.au Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:52:20 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SMOT Kit Offer Update (1st June, 1997), Web sites please upd Reply-to: tammetta mindspring.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3390B087.5D4D microtronics.com.au> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Message-ID: <19970601050352827.AAA83 jumanji> Resent-Message-ID: <"kPPh82.0.Ei5.n4Gap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Greg, > Web sites who WISH to display this offer for at least 3 months AND > qualify to receive a FREE SMOT Kit, please contact me for the details. Does this mean I can get a FREE SMOT kit for displaying your kit on my web page for 3 months? Everything is in place.... I will attempt to close the loop tommarrow..... Has anyone else besides you done this Greg? Ben Tammetta ben clubelite.com http://oscar.clubelite.com:8888/smot ###################### # Ben Tammetta # # ben clubelite.com # ###################### From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 22:57:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA22949; Sat, 31 May 1997 22:55:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 22:55:31 -0700 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:55:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199706010555.AAA14035 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Last AND Least? Resent-Message-ID: <"1aKcW.0.Vc5.IxGap" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts, I have been playing with our 2 ramps for several hours now...most frustrating! I can now get a single ramp adjusted so the ball will exit the upper end and fall on the table...but only with a lift about 2/3's of that needed to allow the first channel to lap over the 2nd ramp's channel. When I increase the lift to the desired amount, I have to move the magnets in a little to make the ball run up the ramp again. That puts me in the regime where the ball _always_ snaps over to one or the other of the magnets arrays when it gets to the top of the ramp. Vital statistics: 1. magnet dims: 7.5mm hi, 13mm long, 4mm thick 2. array size: 8 magnets long by 4 magnets thick 3. ball size: 12mm and 11.2mm....12mm seems to work best 4. channel: 13mm square, 7.7mm opening 5. alignment: ball center level with magnet center If I go ahead and limit the lift to the 2/3's value mentioned above, the ball will fall off the end of the ramp, on to table, and roll away. However, if I position a 2nd ramp after the first so the ball can't fall all the way to the table but rather lands on the 2nd ramp, the ball invariably just stops there at the foot of the second ramp held securely in position by the nearby ends of the first ramp's magnets. Greg, do you have to believe this thing will work before it does?.... Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 31 23:30:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA29567; Sat, 31 May 1997 23:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706010626.XAA03439 iceland.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Last AND Least? Resent-Message-ID: <"1w22T3.0.qD7.QPHap" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:55 AM 6/1/97 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >Gnorts Vorts, > >I have been playing with our 2 ramps for several hours now...most >frustrating! I can now get a single ramp adjusted so the ball will exit the >upper end and fall on the table...but only with a lift about 2/3's of that >needed to allow the first channel to lap over the 2nd ramp's channel. When >I increase the lift to the desired amount, I have to move the magnets in a >little to make the ball run up the ramp again. That puts me in the regime >where the ball _always_ snaps over to one or the other of the magnets arrays >when it gets to the top of the ramp. > >Vital statistics: > >1. magnet dims: 7.5mm hi, 13mm long, 4mm thick >2. array size: 8 magnets long by 4 magnets thick >3. ball size: 12mm and 11.2mm....12mm seems to work best >4. channel: 13mm square, 7.7mm opening >5. alignment: ball center level with magnet center > >If I go ahead and limit the lift to the 2/3's value mentioned above, the >ball will fall off the end of the ramp, on to table, and roll away. >However, if I position a 2nd ramp after the first so the ball can't fall all >the way to the table but rather lands on the 2nd ramp, the ball invariably >just stops there at the foot of the second ramp held securely in position by >the nearby ends of the first ramp's magnets. This is normal for Phase 1 for the ball to just stop there at the foot of the second ramp held by the first ramps magnets. In Phase 2, the second ramp magnets will pull the ball up its ramp and let it drop to the start of the third ramp. Then the same for ramp 4. Linking ramps of course will require magnet assay adjustments. For Phase 4 to close the loop, the forth ramp drop should be twice the height of the first ramp drop (26mm in your case), this done in small incrememts on ramps 2, 3, 4. This extra height then allows a return tubing back to the start. Is this a masterpiece of design or what! > >Greg, do you have to believe this thing will work before it does?.... > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little > Hi Scott, If you have a grinding wheel you might want to carve a "S" curve at the exit point of the rail as per Gregs design (smot-ph6.gif). It really helps in the linking Phases 2 through 4. Maybe Greg will sell assembled SMOT close the loop unit for those who don't have the time to build one, for an additional cost. Hint..., Hint 8^) Best Regards, Michael