X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 30 18:41:22 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:33:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Snell's Law and Solar Neutrinos Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:31:26 +0000
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At 05:12 PM 6/30/97 +0000, Ross Tessien wrote:
>
>It is also possible that they have "imaginary charge".  Where this simply
>means a resonance at a phase angle of 90 or 270, where what we call "real
>charge" are particles with resonances at 0 and 180, and refer to as
>"positive" and "negative" respectively.

Okay, phase and sign of charge are synonymous,and if the neutrino phase is 90 degrees from "world phase" and it's charge conjugate is also 90 degrees from the "world phase" charge conjugate, it is chargeless.  Good point, Ross.

You don't suppose that gravity is only a displaced magnetic field from neutrino spin,ie., circulating current, do you?  :-)

>
>That neutrinos have imaginary charge is not accepted.  And personally, I
>hate using the word "imaginary" for this sort of discussion because I don't
>think that these things, if they really exist, are either imaginary or
>virtual.  Perhaps "out of phase" particles to evoke the notion that they are
>not going to interact with matter at resonant phase angles at ninety degrees
>to real matter.  Or maybe ortho matter for orthogonal phase angle.  or even
>"Normal" matter :-)

I hadn't read down this far when I made the above comments. Phase it is.
This could resolve that the neutrino is actually a coupled pair with zero net spin internally but shows an outward spin of 1/2 in a nucleus.


>
>At least one gets the sense that the stuff is out there, but doesn't want to
>interact, and one gets the sense that the reason it doesn't want to interact
>is because the phase angle of the resonance is normal to that of most matter
>in the universe, at least all the stuff we know about in our material
>objects at hand.

The consensus is; the stuff is out there. However, the Laws of Nature are not determined by popular vote.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick


>
>Ross
>
>
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 30 20:04:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:58:52 -0600 (MDT) From: Jorg Ostrowski <ash@freenet.calgary.ab.ca> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: A & E SPECIAL? (was ****ANNOUNCEMENT****) Organization: Calgary Free-Net
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Further to the attachment of below, was this broadcast? Was it interesting and well done? Would anyone be willing to lend me a copy so that I could review it also, especially if you are in Canada?
I would be grateful for any comments and response.
_________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski,  M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect  - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office _________________________________________________________ On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Evan Soule wrote:
> 
> *  *  *  *  *  *  *   ANNOUNCEMENT   *  *  *  *  *  *  *
> 
> On Sunday Evening, June 29, 1997, the A & E NETWORK will
> present a 2-hour SPECIAL entitled "Conspiracies."
> 
> I have been told that the SPECIAL will consist of eight
> different Segments.
> 
> I have also been informed that JOSEPH NEWMAN will be
> featured as the 7th Segment.
> 
> The broadcast time for the SPECIAL is indicated as
> 7pm for the Central Time Zone.
> 
> Please consult your local TV listings for the actual
> broadcast time in your area.
> 
> *  *  *  *  *  *  *   ANNOUNCEMENT   *  *  *  *  *  *  *
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Evan Soule'
> Director of Information
> NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS
> josephnewman earthlink.net
> (504) 524-3063
> P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684
> Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087
>           http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html
> 
> 
> "I cannot conceive curved lines of force without the conditions of a
> physical existence in that intermediate space."  --- MICHAEL FARADAY
> 
> 
> 
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 30 20:23:02 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:21:18 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:21:06 +0800 (SGT) X-Sender: mpowers8@po.pacific.net.sg
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: mpower consultants <mpowers8 pacific.net.sg> Subject: Re: Earth-Focused Neutrinos?
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Frederick J. Sparber posted the following (edited for brevity) at 22:53 1997.06.30 +0000:
>Ron:
>
>As an after-thought, if neutrinos follow the laws of optics as do
>photons, there could be a focal point for the neutrinos 
>that pass through the Earth, somewhere out in space. On the moon maybe?
>

only during a lunar eclipse,  
 assuming the focal length was not measured in light-years

MMMMMMM  news:alt.shenanigans   MMMMMMM *   http://home.pacific.net.sg/~mpowers8 *  (-latest update: 1997.06.25.12:30-) *****************************************************

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 30 20:54:59 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:48:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Earth-Focused Neutrinos?
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 03:46:47 +0000
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At 03:21 AM 7/1/97 +0000, mpowers wrote:
>Frederick J. Sparber posted the following (edited for brevity) at 22:53
>1997.06.30 +0000:
>>Ron:
>>
>>As an after-thought, if neutrinos follow the laws of optics as do
>>photons, there could be a focal point for the neutrinos 
>>that pass through the Earth, somewhere out in space. On the moon maybe?
>>
>
>only during a lunar eclipse,  
> assuming the focal length was not measured in light-years

LOL! The focal length for the Earth considering the Sun as a point source of neutrinos is going to be in light-years?

Super-Kam is seeing diurnal and seasonal variation in there Solar neutrino measurements, indicating the possibility of the Earth acting as what a glass marble does for visible light. So, what is the focal length for a "spherical lens" with a radius of 6.38E6 meters? :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
>MMMMMMM  news:alt.shenanigans   MMMMMMM
>*   http://home.pacific.net.sg/~mpowers8                   
>*  (-latest update: 1997.06.25.12:30-)     
>*****************************************************
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 30 21:34:40 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:33:10 -0700
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Snell's Law and Solar Neutrinos Resent-Message-ID: <"9c1Oe3.0.4i3.2Z8kp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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>At 05:12 PM 6/30/97 +0000, Ross Tessien wrote:
>>
>You don't suppose that gravity is only a displaced magnetic field
>from neutrino spin,ie., circulating current, do you?  :-)

No.  

IMO, gravitation is a frequency interference phenomena.  Matter resonances here, cannot frequency lock with wave energy arriving from distant parts of the universe.  As a result, all they can do is interfere with (ie thrust), or if you prefer the term, "filter", a percentage of that incident frequency shifted wave energy (or QVF if you prefer).  The result is that you are thrust downward toward the earth by that filtering, and you are thrust away from the earth by filtering some of the energy that transited the entire earth (the earth is virtually transparent to Planck scale, ie E45 Hz, wave energy as is your body.  But a tiny amount of filtering does take place).
The wave energy departing the earth in frequency match with local oscillations of matter, does not thrust you away from the earth as effeciently because your resonances can frequency synchronize with that wave energy.

Thus, the thrust away from the earth is less than the thrust toward the earth, but the total energy is the same in both directions.  Gravitation around objects like the earth or stars, results from this frequency filtering, IMO.

A black hole, however, is a different phenomena.  It manifests because the aether of the universe has two states, call them vapor and condensate for familiarity, but we are talking about the stuff of the universe ocean of aether, and not "matter" as in stuff we normally consider "substantive".  A black hole results when the convergent flow of matter standing waves, and thus of aether, exceeds an energy density of about E111 eV/m^3.  When this occurs, you reverse the phase transition the universe underwent during the big bang and induce a localized condensation.

That in turn leads to a region of the universe where there is a net flow of the universe itself, or of aether, into that hole.  Inside of the event horizon, a core of aether condensate at extreme pressure must manifest.  But if you interupt that inflow in any of a number of ways, then the highly pressurized condensate is going to breach confinement and shoot out into our universe again, in a process similar in concept to the big bang during the inflationary period, but on a much smaller scale.

We see this all over the place and label the objects as AGN's for Active Galactic Nuclei, or Quasars, and according to Arp, apparently many galaxies have non velocity related red shifts.  It appears to me that what we are seeing is that the black holes in major galaxies eject blobs of the aether condensate, which then boils, but it is inertially confined in a manner somewhat like a laser ICF pellet after being hit by the beams.  That violent expansive boiling I think leads to an outward flow of aether and to what we could think of like a hydraulic jump.  (This is what happens as water flows down a dam spillway in a super critical flow and then reaches the slow moving water at the end of the spillway in the river leaving the dam, and it jumps vertically to gain in PE to offset the excess KE of the super critical flow).

In any case, the interior boiling aether condensate must flow out past a huge number of stars stolen from the galaxy that ejected the blob, and then jump in pressure.  this jump leads to a red shifting of any photonic wave energy crossing this shock, and thus to the red shifting of those photons.

this has led to all manner of confusion where interacting galaxies are involved because some of the red shifts are huge while others are close together.  These are interpreted as being chance superpositions, but when you analyze the associations and the probabilities of these associations, it appears that time and again, quasars and high Z galaxies are associated in the sky to the point that the probabilities are a million to one or worse of this being a chance superposition.



>I hadn't read down this far when I made the above comments. Phase it is.
>This could resolve that the neutrino is actually a coupled pair with zero
>net spin internally but shows an outward spin of 1/2 in a nucleus.

Personally, I think that "spin" is a misnomer.  I think that "resonance" is a better term because I think that you have certain standing waves oscillating radially on every other cycle of spacetime standing waves.
Thus, they are driven oscillations just like "Oscillons".  Look those guys up on a web search if you haven't already studied them.

The nucleation of the resonances is maintained by the convergence of the energy density, which leads to tiny Planck scale droplets of aether condensate, ie E-35 meters.  These are the innermost hard cores of what we call, "matter".  They are ancient remnants of the big bang itself, or put another way, they are the last not yet boiled away droplets of aether condensate which had become trapped in the acoustic nodes during the boiling process we call inflation.  

Today, we call those acoustic nodes, "spacetime".  And we call the continuation of the boiling process, "exothermy".  And all exothermic processes are aether emissive.  That is why you can look at the sun and see vivid evidence of some form of fluid flowing out of the sun and breaking out of the surface.  We call these events by names like solar flares, coronal mass ejections and solar coronal heating.  And we call the corridors through which the aether flows, sun spots.  And we notice that as the reactivity in the core increases and decreases on an 11 year cycle, that the pitch of the sound energy in the sun changes globally on that period due to the periodic change in flow rate of the aether.

Have fun with all of this,

Later, Ross Tessien

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 30 22:31:27 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:29:26 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:28:46 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: lucky results
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The 2nd plot in our RUN#2 report on the EarthTech web page (under Waterflow calorimetry) shows the ratio of Pout/Pin vs Time for our new water-flow calorimeter.

An examination of this plot reveals that our typically reported Pout/Pin ratios of 0.997-1.002 were, in fact, just lucky results (i.e. observations made at times when the result was unusually good).

Actually, as you can see from the plot, the calorimeter's Pout/Pin ratio varied generally between 0.99 and 1.03 and was only very close to 1.00 during the day when we were here to observe it!  

Just thought I'd set the record straight on this because, frankly, none of us believed the apparent fractional percent accuracy anyway.  The 0.999 Eout/Ein ratio for the entire run is surely also a rather lucky result.

The system is still quite satisfactory for the purpose at hand although the zero drift problem is rather annoying.  RUN #3, presently underway, is suffering from the zero problem a bit.  Pout is regularly about 0.15 watts less than Pin because of it.

I am open to suggestions for a temp sensing element that has long-term repeatability/stability of better than 0.01C.  As far as I can see, none of the standard types (thermocouple, RTD, thermistor, etc.) are ever advertised to have such a performance.  Perhaps this is just one of those areas where you have to develop your own stuff.  I know HP had/has some pretty fantastic temp instruments for a pretty big price but I doubt if they would be practical for this purpose.  

The beauty of thermistors is that, with nothing more than a matching fixed resistor and a stable voltage supply, you can connect them directly to yr ADC board and, voila, yr computer knows the temperature.  RTD's and thermocouples both require some extra electronics ($$) in order to get their results.  

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 01:13:42 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:11:08 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: lucky results
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At 12:28 AM 7/1/97, Scott Little wrote: [snip]
>I know HP had/has some pretty fantastic
>temp instruments for a pretty big price but I doubt if they would be
>practical for this purpose.
>
[snip]
>Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
>Scott Little


I think the HP and Honeywell high precision thermometers use temperature induced frequency changes of quartz crystals to measure temperature.  It may be possible to jury rig a cheap temperature standard to calibrate Thermistor probes using quartz crystals.

One source of crystals is hobby shops.  Both model cars and model airplanes have a set of frequency bands allocated, and various remote controllers permit interchageable crystals.  Many R/C competitions have a crystal board, where a selection of crystals are available for sign out.  This prevents two remote controllers from using the same frequency.

It may be possible to rig a probe by soldering an R/C crystal on the end of some coax cable and making an insert on the other end of the cable to insert into the crystal slot.  A digital frequency meter can then be used to measure the output frequency of the R/C unit at specific well known calibration temperatures, e.g. 0 C, 100 C, and at boiling or melting points of various materials.

Just some thoughts. Haven't tried it.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 01:28:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:20:53 -0700 Date: 01 Jul 97 04:19:05 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: lucky results
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Scott,

 > The beauty of thermistors is that, with nothing more than a  > matching fixed resistor and a stable voltage supply, you can  > connect them directly to yr ADC board and, voila, yr computer  > knows the temperature.  RTD's and thermocouples both require some  > extra electronics ($$) in order to get their results.

Yes, indeed.  And low-resistance types help with the damp ... yes, I do know I'm paranoid about that.  Now all you need is a positive result, and wait for certain people to tell you the apparent XSH is due to I^2*R in the thermistors.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 30 23:50:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:49:35 -0700 Date:      Tue, 01 Jul 1997 09:17:35 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" <peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: "Peter Glueck" <peter itim.org.soroscj.ro> Subject:   Re: lucky results
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On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:29:26 -0700, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote:
> The 2nd plot in our RUN#2 report on the EarthTech web page (under Waterflow
> calorimetry) shows the ratio of Pout/Pin vs Time for our new water-flow
> calorimeter.
> 
> An examination of this plot reveals that our typically reported Pout/Pin
> ratios of 0.997-1.002 were, in fact, just lucky results (i.e. observations
> made at times when the result was unusually good).
              
              Dear Scott and colleagues,

As long as measurement and not effect enhancement will be the main problem of the CF workers, the problem will remain in the Twilight Zone and will have no future.
It's much better to try to stimulate the effect by ultrasonic, magnetic, electric or whatever effects, by using cathodes with developed surfaces and so on. 
The aim is to get effects beyond measurement and error.

What is the maximum performance (% excess, Watts excess) claimed by Ragland in "direct" discussions ?

Carefully measured goodwill will be pavement material for the well known road which leads to..we know where.

Anyway, I wish you real success with your experimentation!

Peter
-- 
dr. Peter Gluck

Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology         Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700           Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania                                  Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 02:27:05 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:18:25 +0800 (SGT) X-Sender: mpowers8@po.pacific.net.sg
To: Vortex <vortex-l mail.eskimo.com>
From: mpower consultants <mpowers8 pacific.net.sg> Subject: a curious vortex
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I have been attempting over the past year to fashion a water pump  based on an electromagnetic induction vortex.
My objective was a water pump without any moving parts.
[Trials and tribulations years ago with numerous short-lived water pumps
  in Montana prompted this desire - I never managed to purchase a 
  satisfactory (DCvoltage) water pump for my well.]

I got the idea while I was fooling around in Kalimantan recently.
 We were performing a geophysical study of the Mahakam river delta
  which is downstream from a few gold mines (Bre-X was sniffing around
  the hill country and a few colleagues were telling inspiring stories of the
  core results in the region).

A colleague and I were toying with some high voltage arcs and  it occurred to me that if we could get the arc to go through steam  exiting through a strong magnetic field, we could probably achieve  contaminant deposition by molecular weight on the walls of the exit chamber.
 The steam would be, of course from river water.  My spurious speculation  being that we could fire the unit up in the morning, let it run while we  ran around in the jungle, and come back at night to rummage through  whatever we could pry out of the water. Not a get-rich-quick scheme but  simply a bit of fun with water and electricity while we whiled away our  time in Indonesia.  It turned out we lacked enough time & materials to pursue  the experiment any further.

One of my thoughts at the time centered on the observation that we could get  the water to spin when it underwent D.C. electrolysis in a magnetic field.
 This kept my interest, and I have only recently abandoned it as I notice that,  given the current densities necessary to achieve the effect, the electrodes  quickly corrode and disintegrate, polluting the water.  Using DC voltage.

Just this morning I discovered, much to my astonishment, that I could generate  a vortex with an A.C. current.  How to harness it seems to be a tall question,  but I feel certain that would be a solvable task..

My main question (I have a few million other 'main questions') is how  this vortex comes about. I have run this three times, the first two times I could not
 bring myself to believe it.  

The vortex forms on the outside of a wire electrode suspended vertically  into tap water (Singapore, it's fairly clean).  
 (Coriolis effect ? on the Equator ?? I don't think so...)

All my SMOT magnets were a few metres distant, there were no coils or  other magnetic field generation equipment in operation.  
 The wires running the electrolysis were distant and not coiled or bunched close by
  or anything like that.

My first thought is that the ions approaching the electrode might be somehow  discriminating against one polarity or the other:

I plan to run this again and see if there's any type of DC component to the  current, but I ran it with two different power sources and got the same results.

Anyone care to educate me on this ?
  It's easy to get trapped by my own analysis, so I thought I'd throw this out
   and see if anyone's got any ready answers for it....

Cheers...

MMMMMMM  news:alt.shenanigans   MMMMMMM *   http://home.pacific.net.sg/~mpowers8 *  (-latest update: 1997.06.25.12:30-) *****************************************************

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 03:11:03 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 03:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 13:52:22 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Summary of my matter hypotesis Resent-Message-ID: <"dwJ-C3.0.iR1.FPDkp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Hi,

This is the way I "understand" the nature of the matter:

1) Matter is electromagnetic nature.

2) Electromagnetism is more richer than states Maxwell equations, and EM-gravity interactions are in sight.

3) If the basic structures of matter can be described electromagnetically, laws of physics could be simplified considerably.

4) Space and the time is manifestation of the matter (electromagnetism). 

5) According this principle, space and the time are not separate physical entities but the defined as a four mathematical variables within the fifth variable which is the electrical potential (magnetic and electrical fields can be defined from each other using space-time variables.

6) In this context electrical potential is the fifth dimension.
Everything (physical phenomena) can be described by equations using only this five variables or five dimensions. ( the fifth dimension is not geometric but the well known electrical potential.*)



Some consequences:

Space and time is exclusive to matter.  Nothing else can be found in our space-time which can not be described by equations based on these five variables. In other words, anything described by other than these variables are unphysical.

True vacuum does not exist.  The entity described by omitting one or more of this variables (I this case the electrical potential) has no physical meaning. This is similar to define an object with one dimension less geometrical (2D) or the time in not included (time invariant). Both of these objects are unphysical.

All basic interactions (i.e. energy, force, inertia) can be described meaningfully to better understand the physics. 

A criteria to interrogate the completeness of the universe can be build.
Whether or not the universe is self-sufficient can be answered. The question of physical existence (reality) has relative or absolute meaning can be answered. My answer is our existence is relative to us.
For another (hypothetical) system which satisfy their own physical equations and their own physical reality we not more than a hypothesis.

(*) The original Gunnar Nordstrom theory based on five dimensions is the closest to this idea. He wrote at 1914 "On the Possibility of a Unification of the Electromagnetic and Gravitational Fields": Abstract. It is shown that a unified treatment of the electromagnetic and  gravitational fields is possible if one view the four-dimensional space time as a surface in a five-dimensional world.


Regards,

Hamdi Ucar

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 04:17:39 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 04:15:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: EMP Surge Question
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:07:49 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"6qRxU3.0.6A2.qQEkp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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To Vortex:

Last Friday afternoon a "dry" thunderstorm came up rather suddenly.

There were a couple of lightning strikes that you could tell were at a few miles distance, then there was this loud bang and the power went off. 

Three hours later the power company had a service crew out to reset a circuit breaker on a line pole about 3/4 miles away.

After resetting all of the clocks on the tv's, vcr's, fax and the stove, I decided to check for vortex mail. Lo and behold, the P.C. informed me that the modem (14.4 Kb/sec)wasn't getting a dialtone. However, the phone plugged in on the adjacent socket was okay. Scratch one modem. :-(

Replaced modem with 33.6 Kb/second unit. :-) Declared bankruptcy. :-(

The phone cable is all buried at least 3 feet underground in the area, and is virtually untouchable except where it is strung throughout the house or where the folks running water and sewer for a Wal-Mart Superstore nearby, insist on cutting through it with a backhoe at least once a week.

Now then, was the killer pulse fed into the underground cable, or was it due to "inductive" coupling with the phone wiring in the house? I have a surge protector on the power feed for the P.C. and Fax, but didn't figure on something coming in on the phone cable. Where did I go wrong?

Regards,   Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 06:13:39 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 06:11:13 -0700 Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 17:03:57 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [Fwd: Summary of my matter hypotesis] Resent-Message-ID: <"qqmMN3.0.Ny6.m7Gkp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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First attempt of this posting seems failed after few hours. I am repositing again.Message-ID: <33B8D356.70307963 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 13:52:22 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Summary of my matter hypotesis X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

This is the way I "understand" the nature of the matter:

1) Matter is electromagnetic nature.

2) Electromagnetism is more richer than states Maxwell equations, and EM-gravity interactions are in sight.

3) If the basic structures of matter can be described electromagnetically, laws of physics could be simplified considerably.

4) Space and the time is manifestation of the matter (electromagnetism). 

5) According this principle, space and the time are not separate physical entities but the defined as a four mathematical variables within the fifth variable which is the electrical potential (magnetic and electrical fields can be defined from each other using space-time variables.

6) In this context electrical potential is the fifth dimension.
Everything (physical phenomena) can be described by equations using only this five variables or five dimensions. ( the fifth dimension is not geometric but the well known electrical potential.*)



Some consequences:

Space and time is exclusive to matter.  Nothing else can be found in our space-time which can not be described by equations based on these five variables. In other words, anything described by other than these variables are unphysical.

True vacuum does not exist.  The entity described by omitting one or more of this variables (I this case the electrical potential) has no physical meaning. This is similar to define an object with one dimension less geometrical (2D) or the time in not included (time invariant). Both of these objects are unphysical.

All basic interactions (i.e. energy, force, inertia) can be described meaningfully to better understand the physics. 

A criteria to interrogate the completeness of the universe can be build.
Whether or not the universe is self-sufficient can be answered. The question of physical existence (reality) has relative or absolute meaning can be answered. My answer is our existence is relative to us.
For another (hypothetical) system which satisfy their own physical equations and their own physical reality we not more than a hypothesis.

(*) The original Gunnar Nordstrom theory based on five dimensions is the closest to this idea. He wrote at 1914 "On the Possibility of a Unification of the Electromagnetic and Gravitational Fields": Abstract. It is shown that a unified treatment of the electromagnetic and  gravitational fields is possible if one view the four-dimensional space time as a surface in a five-dimensional world.


Regards,

Hamdi Ucar

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 06:32:38 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 06:30:51 -0700 From: Tstolper@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:29:31 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-L eskimo.com
cc: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu, i3683@csc.dk Subject: Upadhyay
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In a message posted on March 29, Anders Heerfordt wrote that C. S. Upadhyay had published CF work as early as 1979, ten years before Fleischmann & Pons.
 In a message posted on March 31, Anders gave some details on three articles by Upadhyay.  Anders also mentioned Upadhyay's 1961 U. of London thesis.    

Anders gave the following info for one of the articles:  "J.I.E.T.E, Vol 35, No 5, sept-Oct 1989"

On April 4, Bob Flower informed us that J.I.E.T.E. stood for the Indian publication called the Journal of the Institution of Electronics and Telecommunications Engineers.

I finally have a copy of an article by C. S. Upadhyay in J.I.E.T.E, Vol 35, No 5, sept-Oct 1989.  The title is "On Schelkunoff Symmetrical Maxwell's Equations."  The pages are 274-277.  

The article was received by the journal on April 12, 1989.  No date of acceptance is given.  

The article doesn't have anything to do with CF that I can see.  

Upadhyay cited a book by Schelkunoff:  Electromagnetic Waves (Van Nostrand, 1943).  I never heard of Schelkunoff before.  

Upadhyay cited his own thesis as Electron Optical Investigations on the Flat Cathode Ray Tube, MSc (Engg) Thesis, University of London, 1961.

I haven't had any luck in finding the other two articles mentioned by Anders.

Bart Simon asked Anders for contact information for Upadhyay, and Anders posted Upadhyay's mailing address.  Bart:  did you ever try to contact Upadhyay?  I haven't yet, but I wonder if you've found out anything about the CF work that he is supposed to have done.

Tom Stolper

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 07:22:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:20:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:12:00 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Old Reference Text Reprints
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I've been patiently waiting for these guys to get around to it, and now they have.  Lindsay Publications now has a website.  Many excellent reprints of old reference books on just about every topic you can think of.  Some duds, but many treasures if you know what you are looking for.  Unfortunately, you will have to send in for a catalog for book content descriptions, but there are lists of the book titles they currently have in stock and their prices.  I've been ordering from them for several years now and have yet to be disappointed with their quality, service, or cost.

Check it out:  <http://www.keynet.net/~lindsay>


Legal crap:
Opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of, or imply endorsement by Motorola Inc. yada yada yada, bla bla bla ........


-- 
Quote of the Day:  
It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit. - Harry S. Truman --
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 08:47:02 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:44:15 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:43:40 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: poster paper rejected
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I got the word today from Marc Millis.  My poster paper has been rejected.


Frank Znidarsic

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 09:02:43 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:00:45 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:00:38 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: lucky results
Cc: "Peter Glueck" <peter itim.org.soroscj.ro> Resent-Message-ID: <"aLZae1.0.Mx5.icIkp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 09:17 7/1/97 GMT, Peter Glueck wrote:

>As long as measurement and not effect enhancement will be the main
>problem of the CF workers, the problem will remain in the Twilight Zone
>and will have no future.

I agree, Peter.  I wish like hell that I could have some excess heat effects to enhance.  As it is, I have to content myself with making good measurements.

>It's much better to try to stimulate the effect by ultrasonic, magnetic,
>electric or whatever effects, by using cathodes with developed surfaces
>and so on. 

We're going to try some of this stuff pretty soon.  Dennis Letts has suggested that we stimulate the cell with RF energy, for example.

>What is the maximum performance (% excess, Watts excess) claimed by
>Ragland in "direct" discussions ?

He routinely says that his working cells produced FIVE times more heat output than total electrical input (his cells were open and he ignored the escaping fuel gasses).

>Anyway, I wish you real success with your experimentation!

Thanks



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 10:36:43 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:29:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:21:14 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Another Useful Site
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Magnet Sales and Manufacturing Online  <http://www.inetdirect.net/magnetix>

Materials information, design guide, stock and custom shapes.  Very informative and helpful.  No costs listed though.  No idea how competitive they are.


-- 
Quote of the Day:  The end of all knowledge should be virtuous action.  -Phillip Sydney --
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 11:05:49 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:57:18 -0700 (PDT) From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: EMP Surge Question
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:55:46 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Message-ID: <"1pMcN1.0.GF6.xJKkp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Frederick wrote:
> Now then, was the killer pulse fed into the underground cable, or was it
> due to "inductive" coupling with the phone wiring in the house? I have a 
> surge protector on the power feed for the P.C. and Fax, but didn't 
> figure on something coming in on the phone cable. Where did I go wrong?

The UPS I recently got for my 'puter system has two phone jacks to allow you to put a surge suppressor between your modem and the outside line.

It'd be hard to say for sure where the surge entered the phone lines, but I'll note that most buried phone cables are terminated in a daisy chain arrangement in above ground metal boxes.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -  - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 11:07:04 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:58:14 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:57:14 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: lucky results
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At 12:28 AM 7/1/97, Scott Little wrote: [snip]
>I know HP had/has some pretty fantastic
>temp instruments for a pretty big price but I doubt if they would be
>practical for this purpose.
>
[snip]
>Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
>Scott Little


Here's a representation of a CMS IC clock design from the McGraw Hill Encyclopedia of Electronic Circuits. Vol. 1 p. 193:


                            o +5V
                            |
                      --------------------
                      |                  |       output 1  ---------------------| OSC OUT          |--------------o  10 Mhz  |                    |                  |  |                    |      ICM7209     |  |    F <= 10 Mhz     |                  |       output 3  |------|O|----o------| OSC IN           |--------------o  1.25 Mhz  |    Crystal  |      |                  |    (output 1 divided by 8)  VC1           C2     |                  |  | 6-30 pF     | 20pF |           V-     |  |             |      --------------------  --------------o           |       |
               |           o /     G
               G            /
                           o  DISABLE SWITCH
                           |
                           G

  G   - ground
  VC1 - variable capacitor
  C2  - 20 pF capacitor


The ICM7209 will drive 5 TTL loads from either of the outputs. The device operates at up to 10 Mhz, and is bipolar, MOS, and CMOS compatible.

Simply mount crystal on coxial cable end to make a probe, and take the output to a frequency counter and generate a temperature calibration curve.


Might work.

Might be able to divide the output 2 further and then use a small fast micro-controller to count oscillations and convert to temperature. The clock for the frequency counting circuit, whatever is used, would have to be temperature compensated or maintained at stable fixed temperature.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 11:06:08 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:00:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: EMP Surge Question
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:58:24 +0000
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mpowers wrote:

>The tel line is a reference point which could be close to ground
>ground in potential.
>The second possibility is that the surge was common-mode and came
>through the power line and hit your modem where it's circuitry
>connects to the tel. line.
>It would have been my first suspicion, although grounding is
>*almost always* the real problem.

The Neutral-Ground wire coming from the pole transformer through the power meter (which Joe Newman can make run backwards with his *energy machine*) :-) and then the main disconnect, is grounded through a #10 gauge solid copper wire clamped to a 1/2" galvanized iron pipe which goes 8 feet into the earth-ground.

In the "old days" I had the ground wire connected to the galvanized iron piping of the house which connected to a 60 foot 1 1/2" well pipe.

However, when I had a 4" tube well drilled and used  1" plastic pipe from the new well, I opted for a better ground, as stipulated by the National Electric Code.  Using a water pipe for a ground these days isn't too reliable. :-)

Running a ground wire from an F-16 in flight is also a bit of a problem.
In the late 70's a reporter from the Chicago Trib ran an expose' on the Air Force losing F-16s and their pilots, because of lightning strikes close to the aircraft and the EMPs going through the "composite skin" and knocking out the flight electronics.

The Air Force had some tests (1979)going on at the Langmuir thunderstorm labs on  the mountain east of the VLA near Socorro  New Mexico about 60 km southwest of here.

That was backed up by the EMP test "trestle" up near Sandia Labs where EMP tests were conducted on all sorts of aircraft. After they started crashing half the computers in Albuquerque in the late eighties, they put a shield or barn around the facility. 

I was running some exciting experiments with sparks under oil and using a digital geiger counter to look for changes in gamma count.
Every now and then the thing went wild, and so did retired physicist Joe Mather, (one of the Oppy Gang, Joe died last November at age 77) from Los Alamos whom I was working with. We had "OLD LEAD" bricks stacked up like bullion at Fort Knox around the thing and it was still going nuts, as were we.  Artifacts?   :-)

Turns out that the Air Force was testing the B-1 bomber on the "trestle" and their pulses were coming through on the power line (40 miles away) and running up the count on our A.C. powered geiger counter. When we compared our "Eureka, Data Log" with that of the defense contractor running the EMP tests, 90% correlation. :-)

Regards,       Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 11:51:33 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:46:03 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:45:13 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: EMP Surge Question
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At 3:07 AM 7/1/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip]
>I have a
>surge protector on the power feed for the P.C. and Fax, but didn't
>figure on something coming in on the phone cable. Where did I go wrong?
>
>Regards,   Frederick

There are surge protectors available for phone lines as well, and may be well worth the cost. Radio Shack carries them I think.

My neighborhood has underground utilities.  Every now and then during breakup water get into the power lines and we hear a loud bang.  Every time I have lost my modem.  I think it may be due to cross talk.  Other modems in the house didn't get blasted, probably because the fuse in the weakest link takes the heat, protecting the others.  My modem uses a 1/4 watt fuse.
They are usually black and look like a diode.  They are typically located near the RJ11 jack.  I have replaced mine at least 4 times.

You can check a fuse by looking at the resistance across it. If not zero, the fuse is a gonner.  If you are not sure you have located a fuse, you can undsolder one end and check the resistance in both directions. If resistance is infinite in both directions you can be sure you have the part that was blown.  If you want to be gutsy, just solder in a wire bridge where the fuse was.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 12:04:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: 01 Jul 97 14:57:41 EDT
From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l@eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: Re: Another Useful Site
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Another attractive site is:

http://www.magnetsales.com

they'll custom make magnets according to your plans!

Terry
(tongue twister of the day:  "The sixth slick sheik's sixth sheep's sick.")

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 12:22:46 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:15:57 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: EMP Surge Question
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:15:17 +0000
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At 06:45 PM 7/1/97 +0000, Horace Heffner wrote:
>At 3:07 AM 7/1/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>[snip]
>>I have a
>>surge protector on the power feed for the P.C. and Fax, but didn't
>>figure on something coming in on the phone cable. Where did I go wrong?
>>
>>Regards,   Frederick
>
>There are surge protectors available for phone lines as well, and may be
>well worth the cost. Radio Shack carries them I think.
>
>My neighborhood has underground utilities.  Every now and then during
>breakup water get into the power lines and we hear a loud bang.  Every time
>I have lost my modem.  I think it may be due to cross talk.  Other modems
>in the house didn't get blasted, probably because the fuse in the weakest
>link takes the heat, protecting the others.  My modem uses a 1/4 watt fuse.
>They are usually black and look like a diode.  They are typically located
>near the RJ11 jack.  I have replaced mine at least 4 times.
>
>You can check a fuse by looking at the resistance across it. If not zero,
>the fuse is a gonner.  If you are not sure you have located a fuse, you can
>undsolder one end and check the resistance in both directions. If
>resistance is infinite in both directions you can be sure you have the part
>that was blown.  If you want to be gutsy, just solder in a wire bridge
>where the fuse was.

Thanks Horace. I was going to chuck out that pokey old 14.4 "dead" modem after using the newly aquired 33.6 unit. If you want it e-mail me your address and I'll send it to you.   Sure too beautiful for Me to put a soldering iron to it.   :-)

Last time I got brave and tried to work with an I.C. op-amp I dropped it on the floor. Took me an hour to find the sucker.  :-)

BTW. Picked up a new 12 volt auto ignition coil ($11.95)to see if it was picking up any background ELF or ZPE radiation. Zip on my DVM.  You can get up to a 1/2  volt or more if you run a "Cow Magnet" back and forth on the side of it. :-)

Not ou though. :-)

Regards,     Frederick
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 13:39:13 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:28:05 -0700 Date: 01 Jul 97 16:26:20 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: The economics of cold fusion
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To: Vortex

It is a bit late in the day to mention this, but I am working on Part 2 of my I.E. article, Cold Fusion And The Future, Economics. I have to finish in next week. If Gene will permit me to fill all 70 pages of the magazine, I am thinking of touching on the following points:

Cold fusion may produce an economic boom or massive unemployment, depending on social policies and the leaders in industry & government.

Cold fusion is likely to benefit the customer with lower prices, more than it benefits industry by generating higher sales.

New technology tends to evolve from a high tech toy, to luxury, to a necessity. It sneaks up on you. A brief look at the automobile, the refrigerator and the personal computer.

I do not think cold fusion will not concentrate wealth in any one industry, class, or geographic area.

The change will be gradual for most industries, but for the automotive and energy industries it will be swift.

Cold fusion requires no labor, that is, no physical work digging wells, mining, hauling fuel or opening dam sluices.

The energy sector of the economy is gigantic. Some facts and figures about oil & gas, which is the most visible and strategically important fuel, providing 65% of U.S. energy consumption.

I do not think establishment can stop cold fusion. I doubt that it will even try. The consumers will demand cold fusion, competition will provide it, and a combination of corporate inertia and Peculiar Ideas will prevent the opposition from acting until it is too late.

A Sterling Example of Peculiar Establishment Ideas about cold fusion: the Munday letter. (This will become a classic.)

If we are clever enough to invent such wonderful machines, surely we can find ways to live with them and let everyone share the benefits.

A brief discussion of Arthur Clarke's utopian vision of the future.


Needless to say, these points apply equally well to any other pollution-free, unlimited source of energy, be it the Correa device or a scaled-up rotating SMOT.

If anyone out there has any ideas about this subject he would like me to plagiar . . . uh, I mean, incorporate in this article, please feel free to write to me directly. I already have far too much for the magazine, but there is plenty of room on my hard disk.

I just spent a lovely hour paging through the 1908 edition of the Sears, Roebuck Catalogue [sic],  looking for some evidence of the automobile revolution that began that year with the introduction of the Ford Model T, on August 12. As I expected from perusing many other catalogs and popular magazines from that era, there is no sign of it. No harbingers, no straws on the wind -- 50 pages devoted to horses & buggies and not one product for the automobile. The only internal combustion engines in the entire 1184 page book are marine gasoline engines, p. 553. They have 10 HP, 625 lb, salt water Kenwood model for $318.50. In 1900 automobiles were hailed as the symbol of the new century, but eight years later they had not touched the lives of ordinary people yet. This is not surprising. As Chris says, history goes slowly when you live through it. It took a remarkably long time for personal computers to make a splash in mainstream, popular culture. I wish I had a 1982 Sears catalog to check this, but I do not recall they sold personal computers or anything relating to them. That was 8 years after the first personal computers were sold. You did not find floppy disks or printer paper in the grocery store or Woolworth until well into the '90s.

People who want to learn about the past should spend less time reading history books and more time reading contemporary trashy novels, lady's magazines, newspapers and catalogs. The language alone speaks volumes about the era. Look at the full-flavored diction in this wonderful run-on sentence from the back page of the Sears catalog. This is part of a document titled "Our Policy:"

     If our prices were not so much lower than people can buy elsewhere, if
     our qualities were not uniformly high, if our policy was not such that
     says, you must save money on every purchase you make from us or return
     the goods to us at our expense, if our financial strength and standing
     was not such that everyone can feel perfectly safe in sending their
     money and orders to us, if we did not give you all these advantages and
     our competitors did not know it, if the retail dealers and the
     storekeepers of the country and the small manufacturers of the country
     did not know all this to be true, there would be no jealousy on their
     part, there would be no occasion for them to attack us with their
     thousand and one misrepresentations.

Can you imagine Wall-Mart saying a thing like that?!? Corporations just don't talk that way nowadays. More's the pity. Heck, Democrats giving stemwinder speeches at the National Convention don't even talk that way. Life is so bland, so free of conflict, politically correct, dull and blah, it's no wonder people don't read the newspapers. You want spice, you have to go back and read the headlines from 1903.

- Jed

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At 09:57 7/1/97 -0800, Horace wrote:

>Here's a representation of a CMS IC clock design from the McGraw Hill
>Encyclopedia of Electronic Circuits. Vol. 1 p. 193:

<snip>

>Simply mount crystal on coxial cable end to make a probe, and take the
>output to a frequency counter and generate a temperature calibration curve.

Thanks, Horace...I wonder how small a xtal I could get?  My thermistors fit INSIDE of 4mm OD glass tubing.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 13:53:05 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:48:07 -0700 Date: 01 Jul 97 16:40:35 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
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To: Vortex

Meant to say:

I do not think cold fusion will concentrate wealth in any one industry, class, or geographic area.

- Jed

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 14:29:18 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:19:40 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: lucky results
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At 4:19 AM 7/1/97, Chris Tinsley wrote:
>Scott,
>
> > The beauty of thermistors is that, with nothing more than a
> > matching fixed resistor and a stable voltage supply, you can
> > connect them directly to yr ADC board and, voila, yr computer
> > knows the temperature.  RTD's and thermocouples both require some
> > extra electronics ($$) in order to get their results.
>
>Yes, indeed.  And low-resistance types help with the damp ... yes, I do
>know I'm paranoid about that.  Now all you need is a positive result,
>and wait for certain people to tell you the apparent XSH is due to
>I^2*R in the thermistors.
>
>Chris


Don't you mean *high* resistance thermistors?  The low resistance ones consume more current for a given sensing voltage range, thus heat their locality more.

The I^2*R of the thermistors all factor out in the calibration, at least at the null point (no excess power).  It could be argued the amount of excess heat is in error, but not that there is excess heat, provided a joule heater is used at the null power level (i.e. at the I^2*R value for the electrolysis) as one point for the calibration. Tye calibration constant then includes the power dissipated in the thermistors.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 14:24:04 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:20:29 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:19:42 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: EMP Surge Question
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I wrote "My modem uses a 1/4 watt fuse."  Meant to say 1/4 amp fuse.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Idea for SMOT
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At 4:01 PM 7/1/97, Chris Tinsley wrote: [snip]
>(sheesh, have I taken leave of my senses, playing with something like
>this at my age?)

It's a sign that if nothing else Greg has pulled a good April Fool's on us all.  Who would have guessed a year ago we would be playing with little balls on model train tracks and witnessing some of the truly bizarre discussions of late - like Barry Merriman publically offering $200 for a working perpetual motion machine!  The perpetual motion part is a bit funny, but $200!  Reminds me of when I thought $200 was adequate to build a working CF cell.  Heck, a thermos, a thermometer, a battery, two nickels, and some salt - what's the big deal anyway?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 14:27:55 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:24:55 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:24:49 -0700
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From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
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>Cold fusion is likely to benefit the customer with lower prices, more than it
>benefits industry by generating higher sales.

Industry will benefit too.  In all manufactured products (including raw materials), you have three components.  Labor (ie brain power), raw materials dug out of earth or harvested, and energy.  Energy appears at each step along the way for mining, refining, harvesting, processing, transportation, assembly, transportation, marketing, sales, etc.  In short, energy is a huge expense for industry.

As for the oil industry, or those involved currently with sales of energy, those that get into CF will prosper and those that don't, won't.  As for sales of energy, what should actually happen is that for quite a while, sales of "energy" in the form of products will actually exceed current sales of expendable fuel.  this is because the devices that produce the energy will cost more and require buying say, 5 years worth of energy up front.
but on top of that, the third world is going to come into the market becuase unlike huge electric plant manufacture, it will be economical for small villages to purchase a communal power source where the power distribution lines can be short, within the village.

this is not possible today with other kinds of generator systems, except for small generators which are noisy, and require constant supply of fuel.

So sales ought to be a bit like the computer PC market.  Large sales for probably 20 years, then a fall off as the market saturates and establishes an equilibrium.  The environment, however, is going to love it.

Ross

X-From_: freenrg-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 14:42:31 1997 Return-Path: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com X-Intended-For: <knuke@aa.net>
Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:42:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Fred Epps" <fepps halcyon.com>
To: <freenrg-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Stubblefield vs Telsa
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:43:44 -0700
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Hi Tony,

I didn't realize Gerry Vassilatos was known for "data-free transmissions" :-)  The article about Stubblefield was well-written, if a little florid, and certainly had enough information to make it tantalizing.  I have not had a chance to look at the compilations. You understand the article is copyrighted so I don't have the power to simply scan it and web it. The patents are public domain, but they are very old and  I don't have the numbers. WHEN I get a copy of the patent or patents, and WHEN I get my scanner setup working properly (which should be soon) I will be more than happy to send them to a site that can put them up.

BTW, there are different slants available on Stubblefield available at:

http://www.inc.com/incmagazine/archives/18960811.html

http://wfmu.org/LCD/GreatDJ/Stubble.html

Fred
----------
> From: Tony Rusi <windski eskimo.com>
> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Stubblefield vs Telsa
> Date: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 1:33 PM
> 
> could you please put this article on this infobot and the patent. I am not
> giving gerry vossilatos et al another dime of my money for long stories
> with not an ounce of data.
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 15:26:19 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:19:38 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: lucky results
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At 3:36 PM 7/1/97, Scott Little wrote:
>At 09:57 7/1/97 -0800, Horace wrote:
>
>>Here's a representation of a CMS IC clock design from the McGraw Hill
>>Encyclopedia of Electronic Circuits. Vol. 1 p. 193:
>
><snip>
>
>>Simply mount crystal on coxial cable end to make a probe, and take the
>>output to a frequency counter and generate a temperature calibration curve.
>
>Thanks, Horace...I wonder how small a xtal I could get?  My thermistors fit
>INSIDE of 4mm OD glass tubing.
>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

One idea might be to check the insides of a cheap quartz watch.  I just now took apart a cheap black plastic CASIO wrist watch and found a crystal in a 2 mm dia. and 6 mm long metal pot.  Also - it had the cutest and smallest fuse I've seen.  Might be able to use the watch circuitry and just extend the crystal using a thin coax. The two leads looked like they would unsolder easily.

Also, you might consider using a differential counter to subtract the clock pulses of two probes to get a measure of temperature differential.  Then the time base of the counting circuitry is not so important. I notice that Cole-Parmer has relatively cheap (about $2k) infrared temperature comparators capable of discerning differentials out to 4 digits, if I read the ad correctly.  Might be useful for calibration.

Note - the first sentence above in the original post above should say: "Here's a representation of a *CMOS* IC clock design."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 15:32:41 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:28:01 -0700 Date: 01 Jul 97 18:26:03 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: lucky results
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 > Don't you mean *high* resistance thermistors?  The low resistance  > ones consume more current for a given sensing voltage range, thus  > heat their locality more.

Take a 10k thermistor, in series with a 10k resistor, with 2V across them.  I = 10^-4 A, I^2*R (V^2/R) in the thermistor is 10^-4 mW - negligible for most purposes.  Of course, it goes up a bit as temp rises.

The problem with a 100k one is that you need a pretty high-impedance device to measure correctly the voltage across it, and the slightest trace of damp will screw your readings big-style.

Ah - I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'high resistance'.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 15:47:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:45:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: SMOTS, Magnetism and Gravity
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:43:25 +0000
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To Vortex:

Chris mentioned that "perhaps the SMOT effect is a very weak interaction between magnetism and gravity."

The "model" as posted earlier claims that the gravitational force is a relativistic time-dilated magnetic force of 0.2583 ampere-meters/kg.

Thus the Earth should act as though there is a current loop located at it's center of: 0.2583*5.98E24 ampere-meters. A ball weighing 10 grams ie., 0.01 kg will experience a gravitational force of:

 1.0E-7*0.2583*0.01*0.02583*5.98E24/6.38E6^2 = 0.98E-2 newtons

6.38E6 is the radius of the Earth.

However the *model" indicates that all of the subatomic particles act as minature solenoids ie., magnetic dipoles that have to ROLL OVER to stay aligned toward the center of the Earth as an object is rotated about a horizontal axis like a gimbaled gyro.

If the SMOT "non-relativistic" magnetism is interacting by changing the "macroscopic" spins of the electrons as the ball is rolling, then Chris-Greg-SMOT have defined an experiment that will support the *model".   :-)

Hard to imagine that when a turbine or airplane propeller are rotating about a horizontal axis that all of the atomic particles and electrons are rotating about an axis also.  :-)

Gee, Thanks Guys!

Regards,    Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 17:11:46 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:07:47 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:06:56 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: lucky results
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At 6:26 PM 7/1/97, Chris Tinsley wrote:
> > Don't you mean *high* resistance thermistors?  The low resistance
> > ones consume more current for a given sensing voltage range, thus
> > heat their locality more.
>
>Take a 10k thermistor, in series with a 10k resistor, with 2V across
>them.  I = 10^-4 A, I^2*R (V^2/R) in the thermistor is 10^-4 mW -
>negligible for most purposes.  Of course, it goes up a bit as temp
>rises.
>
>The problem with a 100k one is that you need a pretty high-impedance
>device to measure correctly the voltage across it, and the slightest
>trace of damp will screw your readings big-style.
>
>Ah - I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'high resistance'.
>
>Chris

It looks like the problem is me misreading "damp". I thought you were talking about thermal time constant damping for the probe due the additional time it takes for the probe to reach equilibrium due to its changing resistance changing the heat generated in the probe at a specific sensing voltage, which can be a large effect if the probe is well insulated thermally. It appears you meant dampness, i.e. reduction of resistance due to shorting through water, giving low readings.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 17:45:30 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:41:49 -0700 Date: 01 Jul 97 20:39:57 EDT
From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l@eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: Re: SMOTS, Magnetism and Gravity Resent-Message-ID: <"OvtPj1.0._V4.CFQkp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Fred,

>>Hard to imagine that when a turbine or airplane propeller are rotating about a horizontal axis that all of the atomic particles and electrons are rotating about an axis also.  :-)<<

Actually, I think this is the basis of antigravity theory -- at least as it applies to superconducting disks.

Why must spin momentum be quantized?

I'm sorry, but I find it intuitively nauseating that 720 degree rotation is required for symmetry.  Standing waves in the aether must exceed four dimensions for this to be true.

Fred, can you explain why it was okay for Oliver Heaviside to reduce Maxwell's equations from a 20x20 matrix to a 3x3 matrix (4x4 with time)?

Pardon me, but several of us are celebrating the acquisition of Hong Kong with OB beer.  Nice flag!

TErry

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 18:10:25 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 18:07:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: SMOTS, Magnetism and Gravity Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:06:05 +0000
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At 12:39 AM 7/2/97 +0000, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Fred,
>
>>>Hard to imagine that when a turbine or airplane propeller are rotating
>about a horizontal axis that all of the atomic particles and electrons
>are rotating about an axis also.  :-)<<
>
>Actually, I think this is the basis of antigravity theory -- at least as it
>applies to superconducting disks.
>
>Why must spin momentum be quantized?

I guess because mvr = n*hbar. :-) But, when you make the mv part relativistic r must decrease to keep n*hbar constant.
>
>I'm sorry, but I find it intuitively nauseating that 720 degree rotation is
>required for symmetry.  Standing waves in the aether must exceed four dimensions
>for this to be true.

I'll take your word for it. :-)
>
>Fred, can you explain why it was okay for Oliver Heaviside to reduce Maxwell's
>equations from a 20x20 matrix to a 3x3 matrix (4x4 with time)?

Nope!   :-)
>
>Pardon me, but several of us are celebrating the acquisition of Hong Kong with
>OB beer.  Nice flag!

I thought that they acquired it with diplomacy! Oh well. :-)

Have fun.  

Regards,     Frederick
>
>TErry
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  1 18:35:14 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 18:32:14 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:19:18 -0500 (GMT) From: Carlos Henry Castano <chcastan@perseus.unalmed.edu.co> To: Carlos Henry Castano <chcastan@perseus.unalmed.edu.co> Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: lucky results
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> > > Don't you mean *high* resistance thermistors?  The low resistance
> > > ones consume more current for a given sensing voltage range, thus
> > > heat their locality more.
> >
> >Take a 10k thermistor, in series with a 10k resistor, with 2V across
> >them.  I = 10^-4 A, I^2*R (V^2/R) in the thermistor is 10^-4 mW -
> >negligible for most purposes.  Of course, it goes up a bit as temp
> >rises.
> >
> >The problem with a 100k one is that you need a pretty high-impedance
> >device to measure correctly the voltage across it, and the slightest
> >trace of damp will screw your readings big-style.
> >
> >Ah - I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'high resistance'.
> >
> >Chris
>
> It looks like the problem is me misreading "damp". I thought you were
> talking about thermal time constant damping for the probe due the
> additional time it takes for the probe to reach equilibrium due to its
> changing resistance changing the heat generated in the probe at a specific
> sensing voltage, which can be a large effect if the probe is well insulated
> thermally. It appears you meant dampness, i.e. reduction of resistance due
> to shorting through water, giving low readings.

The thermistors has a "Dissipation Constant", this give the rate of termal dissipation, for example in a Alpha Thermistors Series, the Dissipation Constant goes from
2mW/oC in still air to
13 mW/oC in stirred oil.  (information from manufacturer, the most of
			 thermistors has constants among 0,5 to 13 or more)

if you want, you can take the pessimist supposing, 2 mW/oC and you may be want only a 1/100 oC of termal drift of autoheat, so:

2 mW/oC * 1/100 oC = 0.02 mW (you only can permit this electrical power through your termistor)

Power through your termistor is P= I^2 * R, the pessimist case is at low resistance because the current is max. and I is ^2.

say, range of temperatyre is 15 to 35 oC, again for Alpha Thermistor 10K series (Curve A) the resistance is 15.720 ohm and 6.530 ohm respectively.

for R = 6530 ohm    and    P= 0.02 mW

I= 5.53 E-5 Amperios.

Now you put your thermistor in a bridge (simple of weastone), is a good idea put a 10.000 resistance in serie (for symmetry).

your resistance is 16.530 ohm, the voltaje is:

V = I * R = 0.91 volts  (this in the "Worst Case")

but, you bridge give aprox., 0.11 volts around of 0.46 volts (Voltaje/2, because the 10 kohm resistor in serie with thermistor), for 15.720 ohm and 6.530 ohm.

may be you need amplify, the best is a Inst. Amp. (thank to Mr. Schaffer) for give a output of +- 5 volts for a TAD.

I use a bridge of weastone and the voltaje of the bridge is 1 volt, my thermistors is 10K in serie with a 10K resistor.

Best regards,

Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo.
Lab. Electroquimica
Universidad Nacional de Colombia, Sede Medellin.


_________________________________________________________________________ My actual E-mail is dinamic but temporal, I have other permanent E-mail, if you e-mail rebound please try again to:  chcastan hotmail.com ________________________________	    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 14:16:51 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:11:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:08:27 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: SMOTS, Magnetism and Gravity -- and too much beer Resent-Message-ID: <"ac8lu3.0.Hc2.wFikp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Mike Carrell wrote:

   >  The molecules next to the glass don't move, there is
   >  a slip layer...[bla bla bla]

Sorry Mike, you've got it all wrong this time. The real explanation is that the force you felt pulling on your leg in that message was actually a form of antigravitational force known as "levity". Makes things less heavy, you see.  ;)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 14:29:03 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:22:25 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) References: <970701200104_100433.1541_BHG43-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:20:19 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Is it all in the balls?
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Martin -

   >  I conclude that Bauer's theory can only explain an
   >  OU SMOT if the iron saturation relationship is
   >  nothing like what has been measured many, many
   >  times previously. In short forget Bauer and
   >  "Saturation" theories.

Could the magnetization of the balls (iron in general) be an issue of net saturation? In other words, does it make any sense in this context to think that maybe a small percentage of domains *are* saturated even at low magnetism?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 01:14:44 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:10:56 -0700 X-Sender: ewall-rsg@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: lucky results
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:27:55 +0000
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Peter Glueck wrote:
>>It's much better to try to stimulate the effect by ultrasonic, magnetic,
>>electric or whatever effects, by using cathodes with developed surfaces
>>and so on. 
>
Scott Little wrote:
>We're going to try some of this stuff pretty soon.  Dennis Letts has
>suggested that we stimulate the cell with RF energy, for example.
>

Scott, Dennis Cravens told me (at the moment we were discussing this, about a year ago) that infrared seemed to be a trigger.  He thought that because cells immersed in a water bath calorimeter were not starting, implying simple human body infrared as a source.  I was working on a regulated temperature water bath and he said don't bother.

Ed Wall

FAA Field Engineer, currently in Las Cruces, NM

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 23:34:05 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:29:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net References: <v03020900afe03442df23@[128.183.200.195]> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:20:15 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: The economics of cold fusion Resent-Message-ID: <"dwo871.0.58.PX9lp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Steve -

My apologies where warranted, but I'm going to be rather frank here.

   >  On days of over-endulgence in eating habits (like
   >  Thanksgiving), I swear my feces & water sewage
   >  has Hole-Grains of CORN Kernals (still
   >  unprocessed) [Burp]:)

Do we really need to know this Steve? I don't think so.


And this: [exact quote]

   >  Like I said, on the other hand, your have different
   >  fingers Be Infinate to Everything :)

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. Besides, your general excessive use of punctuations and emoticons make your posts *very* hard to read. I'm about to set the twit filter on your posts, but I do find your contributions valuable sometimes. I think I've archived some of your posts on SMOT work early on, for instance. I'm just expressing my frustration at how hard you make it for the rest of us with your unconventional message style.

All you have to do to convey your ideas here is to write them clearly and concisely, and use conventional levels of punctuation.
Stream-of-consciousness or other offbeat writing styles just make e-mail difficult to read. I'm on several lists, and have up to 200 or more e-mails a day to sift through, besides having to work for a living and perform the usual chores and social functions as well.

Time is precious, steve. Please don't waste it - yours, or ours.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 05:58:42 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:56:54 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:26:06 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Bachristochrone curves
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Jed -

   >  By the way, if anyone would like to see the actual
   >  curves Chris is using, I have them converted to an
   >  enhanced b&w image in a .jpg file.

Oh, then you've got a photo of Soo then?! Great! E-mail, please.

I'd be interested in the SMOT ramp profiles as well, if you have those.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 01:44:29 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:41:31 -0700 Date: 02 Jul 97 04:39:57 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Off topic
Resent-Message-ID: <"gqR3b1.0.Rn.wGXkp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Seriously off topic ... just fun.

We saw a realo-trulo British tornado at the weekend.  It never reached the ground - not the black core - but someone with a better view got a camcorder to it, and the result was on local television.  Very dramatic, even if it was a bit teensy-weensy compared to the kind Scott Little must know and love.  A lot of debris flying about, they say, and certainly I've not often seen rain like the kind that accompanied it.

It was funny, really.  Soo spotted it first, and said, "Look at that split in the clouds - it looks like a tornado!"  I stared, and stared again.  "It *is* a tornado.  Let's chase it in the car!"

Next - kids starting young.  One small boy in Sweden watched a TV show about archaeology, and declared to his parents that he wanted to make the subject his career.  The next day, at his nursery school, he saw something odd about the rocks close by.  Taking a brush in his tiny hand, he removed the dirt from the rocks - and revealed ancient inscriptions.

Then another small boy - only three years old this time - told his daddy that the funny-looking rock he'd found was a fossilised dinosaur egg.
Yes, you guessed, despite general scepticism it *was* a dino egg.

I'm sorry I don't have the names, this was on the TV (ITV, actually) teletext last week and I didn't note all the details.

Oddly enough, I find all this infant genius mildly depressing...

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 02:18:23 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: 02 Jul 97 05:10:48 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: lucky results
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Horace,

 > It looks like the problem is me misreading "damp". I thought you  > were talking about thermal time constant damping for the probe due  > the additional time it takes for the probe to reach equilibrium  > due to its changing resistance changing the heat generated in the  > probe at a specific sensing voltage, which can be a large effect  > if the probe is well insulated thermally.

Sheesh.  Look, I'm a simple soul.  All right, I admit I had thought maybe if the thermistor is dissipating a tiny fraction more of a mW at the high temp end of the cycle, then maybe you might get some distortion of the results as it cools, but mostly I was thinking about water - insidious stuff, water, it gets everywhere.

Anyway, who cares about milliwatts of heat?  Nobody is going to believe them anyway, that's why any purported o-u device has to give some pretty vigorous results.  Peter is right, we have to concentrate on that rather than worry too much about measurements.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 02:21:49 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: 02 Jul 97 05:10:49 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: SMOTS, Magnetism and Gravity Resent-Message-ID: <"B2VTq.0.ZN5.gkXkp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Terry,

 > Actually, I think this is the basis of antigravity theory -- at  > least as it applies to superconducting disks.

Yes, I have to admit I was giving a nod to the a-g stuff.  If the SMOT really does work (haha) then the theorists will have fun.  Just watch me snoring gently while they do, OK?

 > Pardon me, but several of us are celebrating the acquisition of  > Hong Kong with OB beer.  Nice flag!

Our lease ran out.  A curious business, if I wanted to go to Honkers I can just get a ticket.  If a Chinese wants to, tough.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 02:48:25 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:41:08 -0500 (CDT) From: aki@ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: Re: Off topic
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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July 2, 1997

Chris. you wrote in part: 
>
>Oddly enough, I find all this infant genius mildly depressing...

Don't be. The future is bright! They say you will have a mind of an infant eventually. I don't know about the genius part though.-)

-AK-

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 03:44:42 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 03:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 05:31:10 -0500 (CDT) From: aki@ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: Fwd: Cold Fusion  Anybody?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"yI2ia2.0._U6.6vYkp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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---- Begin Forwarded Message
220 70799 <33B2CC4E.16AB awwwsome.com> article Path: 
ix.netcom.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!europa.clark.net!newsfeed.internetmci.co July 2, 1997
It's not vortex.
Just fowarding a reader post of Mallove's Analog article.
-ak-
From: "David B. Green" <barclay awwwsome.com> Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Cold Fusion  Anybody?
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:08:46 -0700
Organization: Barclay Labs

Just read the most recent Analog(R) column on Cold Fusion. It seems that all this chat of biodeversity of forest and biomass conversion, solar energy etc., could be old fashioned options.
It spoke of 1.4 watts of input to a Patterson cell with deuterium oxide would produe 1.3 Kwatts of heat output with tritium as a waste product.
They even spoke of capturing some helium-4 and transmutation of other elements.
The easy answer is for a respected scientist to stand up and say hogwash (as Nikoli Tesla said about heavier than air flight or Thomas Edison said about the use of AC electricity (too dangerous)).
Since this subject is still too young to get REALLLLY political about perhaps there could be rational discussion about the merits of the papers in the bibliography!
I am thinking of renting one of the Patterson cells ($3750 a year) and buying a garage to play in.(little joke<G>).........maybe this really works?  What could be more fun than making a lot of heat with a little Pd, water and some voltage.
David
---- End Forwarded Message

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 04:12:37 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:03:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Off topic
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:02:15 +0000
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At 08:39 AM 7/2/97 +0000, Chris wrote:
>Seriously off topic ... just fun.
>
>We saw a realo-trulo British tornado at the weekend.  It never reached
>the ground - not the black core - but someone with a better view got a
>camcorder to it, and the result was on local television.  Very dramatic,
>even if it was a bit teensy-weensy compared to the kind Scott Little
>must know and love.  A lot of debris flying about, they say, and
>certainly I've not often seen rain like the kind that accompanied it.

Not off topic. All Vortex phenomena are germane.
>
>It was funny, really.  Soo spotted it first, and said, "Look at that
>split in the clouds - it looks like a tornado!"  I stared, and stared
>again.  "It *is* a tornado.  Let's chase it in the car!"

Woman, chaser? Figures.
>
>Next - kids starting young.  One small boy in Sweden watched a TV show
>about archaeology, and declared to his parents that he wanted to make
>the subject his career.  The next day, at his nursery school, he saw
>something odd about the rocks close by.  Taking a brush in his tiny
>hand, he removed the dirt from the rocks - and revealed ancient
>inscriptions.

Probably the paycheck for a Rock Group.

>
>Then another small boy - only three years old this time - told his daddy
>that the funny-looking rock he'd found was a fossilised dinosaur egg.
>Yes, you guessed, despite general scepticism it *was* a dino egg.

Poacher?
>
>I'm sorry I don't have the names, this was on the TV (ITV, actually)
>teletext last week and I didn't note all the details.
>
>Oddly enough, I find all this infant genius mildly depressing...

Goes to show what one can find if unencumbered with "facts" taught by others. :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
>Chris
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 04:35:48 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:31:49 -0700 Reply-To: <@snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: SMOTS, Magnetism and Gravity -- and too much beer Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 07:22:03 -0400
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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Quoting:
----------
> From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: SMOTS, Magnetism and Gravity
> Date: Wednesday, July 02, 1997 12:47 AM
> 
> Terry -
> 
>   > Pardon me, but several of us are celebrating
>   > the acquisition of Hong Kong with
>   > OB beer.
> 
> Ok, when you have a half empty beer, swirl it around in the bottle until
> you get the beer in there spinning, then hold the bottle still. The fastest
> moving beer particles (bless their little hearts) which are rotating are
> out near the glass, not the center, right? The beer near the edge against
> the glass has risen up higher than the beer in the center of the vortex,
> right? Antigravity.
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
>-----------------------

The molecules next to the glass don't move, there is a slip layer as you get away from the glass to the moving fluid. The inertia of the moving fluid by "centrifugal" forces push the liquid out and up against the pull of gravity forming a parabolic surface (incidentally a way to make telescope mirrors, which is used). No "antigravity", which has been seen in rigid spinning bodies. 

Mike Carrell

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 05:39:54 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 05:29:14 -0700 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:28:29 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Measuring temperature with quartz osc. freq.
Resent-Message-ID: <"KGBBR2.0.wd4.Pcakp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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In looking at the DIGIKEY catalog, it appears the change in frequency due to temperature is less than 1 x 10^-6 per deg. C, or one beat per million.
This implies that to get 0.001 C accuracy would take at least 10^9 cycles.
This implies the need to use fast crystals, say 10MHz. Getting a reading to 0.001 C precision should then still take at least 100 seconds.  However, a 0.01 C reading would only take 10 sec., which is tolerable.  Maybe the $10K quartz digital thermometers use a special type crystal?

Anyway, the important thing with quartz thermometers is not the precision, but the absolute accuracy.  Haven't seen much discussion of this subject on vortex or s.p.f.  Not much in the way of common cheap products.  I wonder what the difficulty is and why it costs $10K to produce one?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 05:55:33 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 05:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 07:50:07 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little <little@eden.com>
Subject: infrared, temp, etc.
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At 04:27 AM 7/2/97 +0000, Ed Wall wrote:

>Scott, Dennis Cravens told me (at the moment we were discussing this, about
>a year ago) that infrared seemed to be a trigger.  He thought that because
>cells immersed in a water bath calorimeter were not starting, implying
>simple human body infrared as a source.  I was working on a regulated
>temperature water bath and he said don't bother.

I've heard that as well, Ed.  Seems to me that a regulated temp calorimeter is still a good idea, it's just a question of what temperature you choose to regulate at.  Our dual-method calorimeter works sucessfully up to 70C for example...and, of course, the cell gets substantially hotter than that due to the input power.

Dennis Letts also appears to have had some success shining IR radiation into the cell.  We'll probably try that also pretty soon.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 06:03:01 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 06:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 07:58:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Measuring temperature with quartz osc. freq.
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At 04:28 AM 7/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
>In looking at the DIGIKEY catalog, it appears the change in frequency due
>to temperature is less than 1 x 10^-6 per deg. C, or one beat per million.
>This implies that to get 0.001 C accuracy would take at least 10^9 cycles.

Surely there are "better" xtals for temp measurement? SiO2 probably has a relatively low temp coeff...

What about RTD's.  highly touted, they are.  rather low sensitivity, though.
Are they capable of 0.001C precision and repeatability?  If so what kind of electronics do you need?

Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 07:05:23 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 07:01:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: SMOT idea
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:59:41 +0000
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At 12:21 PM 7/2/97 +0000, Chris wrote:
(edited for brevity)
>
>But this does raise an interesting point.  As I said yesterday, you can
>reverse a SMOT but you won't get the ball more than a short way down the
>magnet ramp.  And now I see that in a small amount of down-and-up you
>lose amazing amounts of PE to friction etc.  So maybe Greg is right,
>maybe there really are big losses in a SMOT.  That makes even my solid
>rollaway at 1mm lower than entry seem possibly anomalous.
>
>Oh, by the way, C of E assumes (without stating it clearly) that the
>local space is isotropic.  If magnetism and gravity really are both EM
>forces, and distort space, then...

For a fun crash course on Induction and Relativity look at:

http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/Rognerud/html/sect2.htm

Regards,    Frederick
>
>Chris
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 07:31:15 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 07:27:06 -0700 Date: 02 Jul 97 10:25:07 EDT
From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l@eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: Re: Off topic
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Twisters in the UK?  

There's an interesting web site for twister information:

http://www.windchaser.com

The site owner had an odd experience recently.  Seems he captured a UFO zipping across in front of his storm.  There's some stills of the event on the web site.
The object moved 7 miles in 49 frames which is, I think, roughly 15,000 mph.  A meteor or a Reticulian looking for Roswell?

BTW, AK might be right about Tinsley having the brain of a child.  I know he has the heart of one in a jar on his desk.

Terry
(is there *really* formaldehyde in OB beer?)

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 08:22:23 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:17:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: SMOT idea (magnetism and gravity) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:15:44 +0000
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To Vortex:

On the website;
http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/Rognerud/html/sect1.htm

there are six more pages to the "paper" obtainable by changing the above section (sectN.htm) number. interesting. 
Still learning about web searching. :-)

Regards,      Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 10:24:07 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:17:18 -0700 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 09:07:45 -0700 (MST) From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz@IMAP2.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Bachristochrone curves
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There have been a few comments about the bachristochrone curve maximizing the KE of a ball exiting the bottom of a ramp. I don't think so. If the ramps have the same starting and ending points, then conservation of energy implies the same KE at exit if you ignore frictional losses.

What the bachristochrone curve does is minimize the TIME it takes the ball to reach the exit. Its easy to observe this effect. Take two different shaped ramps with level rollaways and set them up beside each other and run a race with identical balls. One of the balls will win the race, but they will both roll across the table at the same velocity (approximately, the differences being due to friction).

-- Lynn


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 10:14:04 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:10:25 -0700 X-Sender: wharton@128.183.200.226
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From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: The economics of cold fusion Resent-Message-ID: <"PPnC53.0.Cu6.0kekp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Jed,
  I thought that I should mention something that has been absent from your previous utopian vision of the future writings, which by the way have been very good.  One of our greatest problems is dealing with our sewage which is mostly feces mixed with water.  It is very costly to treat it and there is still a lot of pollution that escapes either through non-treatment or inadequate treatment.  For example, the Mediterranean Sea these days is basically a sewage cesspool and is terribly polluted in the East end.
  With nearly free energy the water in the sewage could be boiled off, and condensed to pure water if needed, giving the sludge without any processing.  Then the sludge could be subjected to pressure and heat, as in the technique now perfected by the Japanese, to produce a hard and durable building material.  So what do you think of the economics of that?  We take our problem sewage material, heat it, produce clean water and building materials at a fraction of the cost of conventional sewage processing.
  It all depends on nearly free energy.  It is nice to dream about this utopian future but lets not forget that we do not have free energy yet.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 10:34:04 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:30:47 -0700
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From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: The economics of cold fusion Resent-Message-ID: <"bb7Ka.0.mS2.52fkp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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>Jed,
>  I thought that I should mention something that has been absent from your
>previous utopian vision of the future writings, which by the way have been
>very good.  One of our greatest problems is dealing with our sewage which
>is mostly feces mixed with water.  It is very costly to treat it and there
>is still a lot of pollution that escapes either through non-treatment or
>inadequate treatment.  For example, the Mediterranean Sea these days is
>basically a sewage cesspool and is terribly polluted in the East end.
>  With nearly free energy the water in the sewage could be boiled off, and
>condensed to pure water if needed, giving the sludge without any
>processing.  Then the sludge could be subjected to pressure and heat, as in
>the technique now perfected by the Japanese, to produce a hard and durable
>building material.  So what do you think of the economics of that?  We take
>our problem sewage material, heat it, produce clean water and building
>materials at a fraction of the cost of conventional sewage processing.
>  It all depends on nearly free energy.  It is nice to dream about this
>utopian future but lets not forget that we do not have free energy yet.

In Northern California, in the Arcadia area and in other locations, they create a huge lagoon area into which the sewage goes after a first rough treatment of the sewage to begin the microbe digestion process.  the plants and micro-organisms digest the waste and the resulting water slowly migrates through the system and is cleansed.

This is all natural and doesn't require huge energy inputs, ie, none at all.
So if they have a problem over there, it is simply a matter that they are not sufficiently tired of swimming in s--- to allocate the technology to clean it up!

It costs a fair amount to set up the system, but then nature comes in and helps out.  It works really well up there and requires monitoring and a large area, but aside from that the water ultimately discharged is beautifully clarified and free of dangerous organisms.

One thing has occured to me, and this is that if we become used to free energy and use it for every little thing, then it may be possible in the distant future that we generate sufficient heat to become an environmental problem.  So I think we should try from the outset to be judicious with our applications of our heat usage and to attempt to make as little impact on nature as possible.

though it will be a long time before the heat we use catches up to the green house heating of the gases (ergo solar heating excess) + heat released, that we currently use.  Food for thought though.

Ross Tessien




X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 10:35:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:34:18 -0700 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:34:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Tony Rusi <windski@eskimo.com>
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has anybody heard of this or the physics behind it?


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 11:00:42 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: 02 Jul 97 13:51:47 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Bachristochrone curves
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Lynn,

 > What the bachristochrone curve does is minimize the TIME it takes  > the ball to reach the exit.

Yes, you are exactly right, sorry about that.  From my viewpoint the problem is the huge frictional (presumed skid) losses, and the sheer brilliance of Newton's derivation of the Bachistochrone doesn't help me!

As an aside, this problem was set by Jean Bernouilli in 1697 (when Newton was self-confessedly 30 years past his prime), and Isaac solved it that evening.  Apparently the proof is regarded as so difficult as to be left out of undergraduate engineering courses.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 11:06:59 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:05:03 -0700 X-Sender: wharton@128.183.200.226
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>On Saturday Evening, July 5th, 1997, the A & E NETWORK will
>REPEAT the 2-hour SPECIAL entitled "Conspiracies."

  I saw the broadcast and found it a total waist. There was no evidence presented to support the claims as to the functionality of the Energy Machine.  There is no need for a conspiracy to suppress a device that does not work.  Its own inoperability is all that is required to suppress it.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 11:11:22 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:08:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: SMOTS, Magnetism and Gravity
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:07:18 +0000
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At 12:39 AM 7/2/97 +0000, Terry Blanton wrote:

>Fred, can you explain why it was okay for Oliver Heaviside to reduce
>Maxwell's equations from a 20x20 matrix to a 3x3 matrix (4x4 with time)?

Possible answer, Terry:

                       |    |
                     X | 0  | X
                   ----|----|----
                       |    |
                     X | 0  | X
                   ----|----|----
                     0 | X  | 0
                       |    |

 Cat Got It! Time (a 4x4)is complicated and time consuming, a 20x20 is very complicated.    :-)

Regards,     Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 11:14:17 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:12:02 -0700 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:11:13 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Measuring temperature with quartz osc. freq.
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At 7:58 AM 7/2/97, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>
>What about RTD's.  highly touted, they are.  rather low sensitivity, though.
>Are they capable of 0.001C precision and repeatability?  If so what kind of
>electronics do you need?
>
>Scott Little

Lots of info on RTDs available in the Omega "The Temperature Handbook," which is free to commercial/industrial customers.   Also, I may have seen the IR differential thermometer ther and not the Cole Parmer catalog.  The RTD is resistance based so is similar to the thermistor in use, i.e. you use a bridge, except you use the Callendar-Van Dusen equation instead of the Steinhart-Hart to calculate temperature.  They are just a bunch of wire (e.g. Pt) wrapped around an insulating core.  They are self heating, like thermistor and semiconductor probes.

Personally, I think maybe the continual measurement current technique that is typicallly used has room for improvement.  I think pulsed sensing is very feasible, and would greatly reduce self heating effects.  It would only take a voltage clamping or "voltage memory" circuit similar to that used in digital oscilloscopes (except only 1 data point!) to sample the voltage from a bridge being pulsed and then an A to D converter as usual.
Provided the leads to the probe were twisted pair (preferably shielded) or coax, a reliable calibration should be feasible.  A 10 usec pulse should do the job, and would cut the self heating effects down by a factor of 10^5.
This should work work OK for both thermistors or RTDs that have low inductance - like thin film RTDs.

Sampling should be easy to do.  Just replace the present bridge with a bridge and a continuous sampling circuit.  A "clock" could be used to sample the temperature once per second.  It would trigger a reset on the voltage clamp circuit and then trigger a pulse to the bridge.  This would result in the clamping of the max voltage out from the bridge.  The output of the voltage clamp device could be smoothed to eliminate ripple during the roughly 10 usec sample interval, and then possibly scaled, and then fed to the A/D device as usual.  The required sample time could be determined by pulsing a probe and looking at the resulting voltage curve with a good scope to determine the rise time.  Maybe 10 usec is a bit optimistic, but I think it can be done.  I think this pulsed sampling technique would provide a significant improvement in probe accuracy.

Due to the lower resistance of RTDs, three wire and 4 wire systems are used in order to compensate for probe lead resistance.  This is done in a 4-wire probe like so:


A----------------------------------
                                   \----------
                                   /         | B----------------------------------          |
                                            RTD
                                             | C----------------------------------          |
                                   \----------
                                   /
D----------------------------------



Voltge is supplied at A and D and the drop is measured across B and C. This provides the voltage drop across the RTD alone and cancels out the resistance of the wires.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 11:59:54 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:55:55 -0700 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:55:09 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: SMOTS, Magnetism and Gravity Resent-Message-ID: <"cD2Br1.0.Hq4.wGgkp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 10:07 AM 7/2/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>At 12:39 AM 7/2/97 +0000, Terry Blanton wrote:
>
>>Fred, can you explain why it was okay for Oliver Heaviside to reduce
>>Maxwell's equations from a 20x20 matrix to a 3x3 matrix (4x4 with time)?
>
>Possible answer, Terry:
>
>                       |    |
>                     X | 0  | X
>                   ----|----|----
>                       |    |
>                     X | 0  | X
>                   ----|----|----
>                     0 | X  | 0
>                       |    |
>
> Cat Got It! Time (a 4x4)is complicated and time consuming, a 20x20 is
>very complicated.    :-)
>
>Regards,     Frederick


Something special in your tea Frederick?

Must have be a Cheshire cat's game.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 12:09:00 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:57:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Jorg Ostrowski <ash@freenet.calgary.ab.ca> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: total "waist"
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
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Larry: Who are you and what is your proof for the attached? Those of us in the real world of business have to deal with hundreds of suppliers, manufacturers, representatives, and their claims, specs and literature. I have learned that the only real attitude is to give them the benefit of doubt unless you can prove they are wrong. Replication  and verification is requested were appropriate. Otherwise it is the above and nothing gets built.
_________________________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski,  M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto),  in full-time professional practice since 1976,  3 demonstration projects in Canada built 1979, 1981, 1994, +80,000 visitors  - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm _____________________________________________________________

On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Larry Wharton wrote:
>   I saw the broadcast and found it a total waist. There was no evidence
> presented to support the claims as to the functionality of the Energy
> Machine.  There is no need for a conspiracy to suppress a device that does
> not work.  Its own inoperability is all that is required to suppress it.
> 
> Lawrence E. Wharton
> NASA/GSFC code 913
> Greenbelt MD 20771
> (301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov
> 
> 
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 13:21:59 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Intended-For: knuke@aa.net
Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: 02 Jul 97 16:08:19 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Bachristochrone curves
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To: Vortex

Lynn Kurtz writes:

     There have been a few comments about the bachristochrone curve
     maximizing the KE of a ball exiting the bottom of a ramp. I don't think
     so.

Neither do I. The Bachristochrone curve maximizes acceleration. The exist speed at the bottom of the ramp must be the same in all cases, or you have a way to make a perpetual motion machine. With the B. curve, the ball reaches maximum speed in the shortest amount of time as it falls. Think of putting one bead on a long, gradual slope and another on a short steep slope, both starting at the same height. Ignore friction, rotation, etc. The bead on the long slope gradually picks up speed, and finally exits at X meters per minute.
The steep one reaches the bottom quickly and shoots out, also at X meters per minute.

I recommended the B. curve to Chris because I had the hazy idea that he wanted to shoot away from the magnetic field as quickly as possible, without going straight down. Thinking it over, I guess it does not matter how quickly you escape the field, but only how far, and how fast you are going when you escape.


Horace Heffner is mixed up:

     This makes no sense. The average lateral velocity of the ball that wins
     must be greater, ignoring friction. . . . Achieving the greater lateral
     velocity simply means falling deeper into the well. . . .

There is no well in the B. curve experiment. (There is with Chris's gadget, but that's another story.) With the B. curve, they both exit at the ground floor, both starting from the lingerie department on the third floor. If you give the bead on the gradual slope a head start, and you time it so that they both hit the exit ramps at the same moment, they will roll together at the same speed.

By the way, if anyone would like to see the actual curves Chris is using, I have them converted to an enhanced b&w image in a .jpg file. The darn thing is 121 KB long and I cannot reduce the size for some reason. E-mail me directly for a copy of the uuencode file. And if you don't know what all that .jpg and uue gibberish is, forget it! It ain't worth figuring out.

- Jed

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 14:19:59 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:16:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Larry Wharton wrote: ..[snip]..
> very good.  One of our greatest problems is dealing with our sewage which
> is mostly feces mixed with water.  .....[snip]  So what do you think of the economics of that?  We take
> our problem sewage material, heat it, produce clean water and building
> materials at a fraction of the cost of conventional sewage processing.
>   It all depends on nearly free energy.  It is nice to dream about this
> utopian future but lets not forget that we do not have free energy yet.
> 
> Lawrence E. Wharton
> NASA/GSFC code 913
On the other hand, you have different fingers! :) Ref: Utopian(?) future pipedreams
On days of over-endulgence in eating habits (like Thanksgiving), I swear my feces & water sewage has Hole-Grains of CORN Kernals (still unprocessed) [Burp]:) and obviously not need to sustain body functions.
Now, I do re-cycle my garden. (Stem, roots, stalks and all in a winter compost bin for spring planting).  The next year plants THRIVE on it.
But, your suggestion to "Stock-Pile-It" into building materials sounds like you'd be depleating your 'earthly-resources' by never 'putting them back'. (granted once a year I partake in the US custom of Thanksgiving Overkill Food Consumption, (yumm-yumm:), but if I had a pipe dream for the future it would be to disperse this 'nutrious fertilizer' as far and wide as I could.. (China does this rurally -BACK to The Earth-) from whence it came.)  If we/you have 'Left-Overs' how about distribution into the desert and 3rd world countries.... green green green :) -------------
Which brings me to global-warming nuts that want to reduce carbon-dioxide levels.  Oh, good lets reduce what out plants (food) THRIVE ON, that'll save 'em (duh). Then when we try/ have to UNdo that mess, where are all the nutiants -->Stockpiled in those Metro-Skyscrapers over there.<-- -------------
Good Thought Though.. IT's a BALANCING act (isn't everything)... sure glad Mother Nature Figured it out BEFORE we got here.  Can you imagine the size of our WASTE (feces+water) if that comet hadn't hit & we were all Big Dinosaurs now typing on these computers???? <grin> --
So it's not Collection and Treatment so much as RE-re-RE Distribution!

Like I said, on the other hand, your have different fingers  Be Infinate to Everything :) round & round & round she's goes.. good old Mother Nature :)

se
------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 15:51:37 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:28:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: lucky results
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 22:26:29 +0000
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At 04:27 AM 7/2/97 +0000, Ed Wall wrote:
>Peter Glueck wrote:
>>>It's much better to try to stimulate the effect by ultrasonic, magnetic,
>>>electric or whatever effects, by using cathodes with developed surfaces
>>>and so on. 
>>
>Scott Little wrote:
>>We're going to try some of this stuff pretty soon.  Dennis Letts has
>>suggested that we stimulate the cell with RF energy, for example.
>>
>
>Scott, Dennis Cravens told me (at the moment we were discussing this, about
>a year ago) that infrared seemed to be a trigger.  He thought that because
>cells immersed in a water bath calorimeter were not starting, implying
>simple human body infrared as a source.  I was working on a regulated
>temperature water bath and he said don't bother.

Thats interesting, Ed. There Might be "Light Lepton" pair production going on, which could explain a lot of things.
The commercially available IR LEDs at 0.880 and 0.935 microns might be worth a try. Absorption by water shouldn't be too bad at these wavelengths. The interior of the Sun too hot for these wavelengths?

Regards,   Frederick
Hotter in Las Cruces, than Belen, I bet. :-)
>
>Ed Wall
>
>FAA Field Engineer, currently in Las Cruces, NM
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 23:37:05 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:31:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:59:24 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject:  curves (off topic)
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Soo -

   >  Hey, SMOT ramps curve DOWNWARDS!  Are you
   >  hinting that gravity has not been kind to me <pout>.

Gravity is kind to no one. But I've always understood you to be quite immune to the effects it usually has on the rest of us, except for that of keeping your feet on the ground?

   >  I'll send you a  curvy .jpg if you can assure me that
   >  you have a sufficiently capacious hard drive.

If you're the right size for a 100mb ZIP, then you're right for for me.

Thanks!

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 23:37:13 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:31:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:36:55 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Roswell ET Evidence?
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Terry -

   >  SCIENTIFIC PROOF TO BE PRESENTED THAT AN
   >  EXTRATERRESTRIAL CRAFT WAS RECOVERED NEAR
   >  ROSWELL, N.M.

Glad I won't have to hold my breath longer than a day now.<g>

Whatta 4th. I can go see MIB at the theater, watch the Mars landing, and hear Dr. Dan or somebody obfuscate about bismuth-magnesium or something.
All that, plus firecrackers and beer!

Life is good.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 20:49:55 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:47:03 -0700 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:38:20 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> Subject: Gravity
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	Einstein said intertia and gravity were two words for the same thing.
	A gyro seems to be referenced to itself.

			Any takers?


					JHS

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  2 22:37:29 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 22:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 22:31:42 -0700
From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller)
Reply-To: tom gorge.net
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The economics of cold fusion References: <199707021812.LAA11491 mx1.eskimo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"0ZswB1.0.MS1.tTpkp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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I like Larry Wharton's idea of using CF heat to boil wastewater. 
Such a method would not only get rid of waste, it could provide fresh water by condensing the vapor. If hot enough, it should be sterile. 

Suggestion: use elctroplating methods to remove heavy metals from the wastewater stream, before vaporizing.  Heavy metals are already  a problem in municipal systems. Think what the problem will be if half the households start flushing partially transmuted CF cells down the drain!!

Ross Tessien's mention of a low tech method used in California sounds pretty elegant. If someone tried it here, it would be tied up in the courts for a decade, at least, and,if actually approved, would cost three times what a standard, inefficient, polluting system would cost.

Ross: Does the described system use an anaerobic digester, first? How does it remove heavy metals and other non-biodegradables?

OTHER RANDOM IDEAS:

1. CF is likely to be either:

		a. reasonably replicable, and so reasonably priced
		(as one would expect Mills Hydrino producer can be 
		expected to become.) 

OR

		b. Difficult to (re)produce, and therefore expensive.
		(as one could expect that Palladium-type cells to be.)

2. If scenario "a" holds, garage tinkerers will begin replications, as soon as the patent is published.  Therefore, the retail price for a commercially manufactured unit will have to be fairly low, and the main method for the inventor to be compensated will be reasonably priced licensing. If any manufacturer can get a license, cheaply, there will be a lot of competition.  If the inventor tries to keep total control, and too much money, the tinkerers will build the units, for themselves, and Asia will start churning them out by the millions.
A big corporation might have enough money to suppress other corporate infringement, but you can't successfully sue ten million mechanics, or sue China over a truckload of unmarked replicas in Katmandu.

3.  If scenario "b" holds, an inventor might be able to maintain close control, since replication would be out of the realm of the tinkerer.
The equipment, controls, and specialty metals will likely keep this type oc CF device in the realm of special uses. Probably a lot like solar panels. The price of solar panels has fallen very slowly, if at all. Indications are that they are now going up! Can you imagine buying a new computer with the same performance, AND PRICE as ten or more years ago? This is likely the fate of difficult CF -- high price,  low volume, little impact. 

4.  If either scenario requires exotic metals, especially as consumables,
the demand for said metal will increase, as will the price, at least until 
the price reaches a level which will develop a larger supply.   

Enough for now.

Tom Miller

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 00:09:38 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 00:08:01 -0700 (PDT) From: ehammond@pacbell.net
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 00:08:43 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: lucky results
References: <19970702222627.AAA1153 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"MnVls3.0.RZ3.E_qkp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Invite a Chi Kung Master to Zap your cell. Research from China indicated they could influence structure of materials.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 00:30:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 00:28:43 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: infrared, temp, etc.
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 07:22:03 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 07:50:07 -0500 (CDT), Scott Little wrote: [snip]
>
>Dennis Letts also appears to have had some success shining IR radiation into
>the cell.  We'll probably try that also pretty soon.
[snip]
Scott,

If Charles Cagle is correct, then it may be more important that the EM radiation is monochromatic, rather than specifically IR.
Dennis may have had some luck, because the IR he used was predominantly 1 frequency.


Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 00:44:35 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 00:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:40:49 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com> From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Bachristochrone curves
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At 4:08 PM 7/2/97, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>To: Vortex
>
>Lynn Kurtz writes:
>
>     There have been a few comments about the bachristochrone curve
>     maximizing the KE of a ball exiting the bottom of a ramp. I don't think
>     so.
>
>Neither do I. The Bachristochrone curve maximizes acceleration. The exist
>speed at the bottom of the ramp must be the same in all cases, or you have a
>way to make a perpetual motion machine. With the B. curve, the ball reaches
>maximum speed in the shortest amount of time as it falls. Think of putting one
>bead on a long, gradual slope and another on a short steep slope, both
>starting at the same height. Ignore friction, rotation, etc. The bead on the
>long slope gradually picks up speed, and finally exits at X meters per minute.
>The steep one reaches the bottom quickly and shoots out, also at X meters per
>minute.
>
>I recommended the B. curve to Chris because I had the hazy idea that he wanted
>to shoot away from the magnetic field as quickly as possible, without going
>straight down. Thinking it over, I guess it does not matter how quickly you
>escape the field, but only how far, and how fast you are going when you
>escape.
>
>
>Horace Heffner is mixed up:
>
>     This makes no sense. The average lateral velocity of the ball that wins
>     must be greater, ignoring friction. . . . Achieving the greater lateral
>     velocity simply means falling deeper into the well. . . .
>
>There is no well in the B. curve experiment. (There is with Chris's gadget,
>but that's another story.)


No reason it shouldn't be the same story - by symmetry, same curve back up as down, especially in view of the fact the brachistochrone is a cycloid.
Depending on the location of the final point the optimum curve may approach from *underneath* the final point - the choice of the final point is open - provided it is at the same or lower elevation.


>With the B. curve, they both exit at the ground
>floor, both starting from the lingerie department on the third floor. If you
>give the bead on the gradual slope a head start, and you time it so that they
>both hit the exit ramps at the same moment, they will roll together at the
>same speed.
[snip]
>
>- Jed



You just proved my original point.  They do not travel at the same speed at all times.  Ignoring friction, they should only travel at the same speed at the same elevation.  Average speed of two different curves is not the same, nor does instantaneous speed have to be the same at all times for all curves.  This seems totally obvious.

A good example is a curve that, like a rollercoaster, re-approaches the original height half way through the trip, i.e. a dip with a hump in it like my experiments. As the elevation of the central hump approaches the initial elevation, the time to traverse the curve goes to infinity.  In a frictionless world you can make the traverse time as long as you wish.

A brachistochrone with constrained lower elevation may have multiple loops and avoids the above delays by shooting the ball straight up and down (infinite slope) at the cusps.  This points to another design strategy.
Use multiple cycloidal dips and put the magnetic ramps on the up swings prior to the cusps.  The ball then only needs to go high enough to fall over the cusp, which may not yet be out of the magnetic field influence.
However, as Chris points out, when you have high speed fast drops you eat up energy in air resistance, noise, induction, etc.  Probably won't work - but it is a different perspective anyway.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 06:02:27 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:59:42 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 15:51:57 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Inertia of light (Part I)
Resent-Message-ID: <"W8mDe2.0.5g.y8wkp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Hi,

Although the inertia and mass concepts are well explained within special relativity, I would like to show how is inertia is manifesting in photon interactions.

Let be a freely moveable system consisting the parallel mirrors able to reflect the light inside multiple of times for a period enough to make measurements. The experiment is to measure the inertia of the system with and without the light by pushing it on the direction of the mirrors (the direction of the pathway of the light). We know that inertia of the system is increased when a light is present between mirrors from the E=mc2. The total mass is increased by contribution the mass equivalent energy of the light, so the force needed to accelerate the system is increased. But how this extra force is applied to the photons and how the photons are storing the gained this energy?


          A           B

         \|           |/
         \|           |/
  F -->  \|           |/      
         \|           |/
         \|           |/
      =======================  
       o                   o 
  Mirror carrying chariot (side view)

Everything can be explained by doppler effect and the light pressure.
When the chariot carrying mirrors has gained a velocity, the light coming to mirror A appears in higher frequency, and the the ones to directed to mirror B appears in lower frequency.

Initially when the mirrors are in rest, the light applying presures P0 to each mirrors. When the mirrors are acceleratings, the pressure applied to mirror A is increased(Pa) and to mirror B is decreased(Pb).
So the total unbalance between pressures (Pa-Pb) is casusing the resistance to the motion, and this force opposing to the motion is the inertia of the light. 

Let analysis the experiment now in energy terms. I am surprized by how the problem is going complicated now. Is the energy of the photons are increased respect to initial frame and remain constant respect to chariot? Very interestingly, not all distributions of photons between mirrors giving the same results. while the homogen distribution seems to  not incresing the energy of photons respect to chariot, singles photons energies appears increasing or decreasing according their initial directions and gives paradoxial results.


BTW, the problem can be examined by replacing photons with bearing balls and mirrors with more rigid walls. Even a ramp can be included on the pathway of the ball(s).

(End of the part I)


Regards, 
(Toward to "How to replace balls with photons in SMOT")

Hamdi Ucar

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 06:21:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 06:19:58 -0700 From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Gravity
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:19:53 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Message-ID: <"tsFKj3.0.lg1.yRwkp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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John Schnurer wrote:
> Einstein said intertia and gravity were two words for the same thing.

I'm not sure why he said that, since the force of gravity declines according to the inverse square law, whereas the force due to acceleration declines not at all along the path of acceleration.

To my mind, things that behave according to different mathematical formulas are not "equal" and hence, not "equivalent."

They are similar in several ways, of course.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -  - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 09:01:12 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: 03 Jul 97 10:49:04 EDT
From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 CompuServe.COM> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Roswell ET Evidence?
Resent-Message-ID: <"3Y88S1.0.XN1.QWykp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Gnorts, Vorts,

Since there seems to be a good deal of interest on this subject by the members of the list, following is a message I received from friends visiting Roswell this week:

	~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SCIENTIFIC PROOF TO BE PRESENTED THAT AN EXTRATERRESTRIAL CRAFT WAS RECOVERED NEAR ROSWELL, N.M.

ROSWELL, NM (June 30, 1997) -- A press conference scheduled for 9:00 a.m. July 4, 1997, at the Rearson Auditorium on the New Mexico Military Institute Campus in Roswell, New Mexico, will present the results of scientific tests performed on crash debris found near Roswell, New Mexico fifty years ago that once and for all prove that the downed vehicle was not of earth origin.

A research scientist from a major university involved in the testing will be on hand to discuss the methodology and results of the isotopic ratio tests of the Roswell debris. Supporting conclusions and a battery of tests conducted by universities and national laboratories will be provided that conclude the Roswell debris is manufactured material of extraterrestrial origin.

Paul Davids, Executive Producer of the Showtime film, "Roswell," is sponsoring the presentation of this evidence during his program at the 50th Anniversary.
Along with images of the actual Roswell crash debris, the chain of evidence will also be presented validating the Roswell incident as the recovery of a crashed extraterrestrial vehicle. 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 09:16:12 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:52:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Puthoff@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:16:22 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com, herman@antioch-college.edu Subject: Re: Gravity
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In a message dated 7/3/97 11:11:37 AM, Schnurer wrote:

<<Einstein said intertia and gravity were two words for the same thing.
	A gyro seems to be referenced to itself.

			Any takers?>>

Puthoff, Haisch and Rueda say the same thing, both inertia and gravity found to derive from interaction with the ZPE (and thereby leading to same values for inertial and gravitational masses), so we are takers.  See Puthoff, "Gravity as a zero-point-fluctuation force," Phys Rev A, vol 39, p. 2333 (1989) and vol 47, p. 3454 (1993); Haisch, Rueda and Puthoff, "Inertia as a zero-point field Lorentz force," Phys Rev A, vol 49, p. 678 (1994).  See also commentary in Science, vol 263, p. 612 (1994).

We would be inclined to restate the above as "a gyro is referenced to the ZPE with regard to both its gravitational and inertial properties."

Hal Puthoff


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 09:06:25 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 08:49:47 -0700
From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller)
Reply-To: tom gorge.net
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: can't yet retest rollaway
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Dan: 
RE: your non-rolling "stone."

Been there, done that. Modern medicine had to cut mine out. 

While still oozing bodily fluids in the hospital, I was visited by a very nice MD. He kindly informed me that in his home country (India) they had an herb which dissolved kidney stones in a day or so.  Then, the next week, I read that the powers that be had decided that lithotripsy was now ok for the general public. Too late for me.

Left me with some mixed feelings aout modern medicine, too.

Hope it all comes out OK.

Tom Miller

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 11:56:21 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:54:14 -0700 Date: 03 Jul 97 14:52:11 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Bachristochrone curves
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Rick,

> Oh, then you've got a photo of Soo?

Hey, SMOT ramps curve DOWNWARDS!  Are you hinting that gravity has not been kind to me <pout>.

I'll send you a  curvy .jpg if you can assure me that you have a sufficiently capacious hard drive.

Soo
xxx

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 12:00:38 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:58:46 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:55:20 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> Subject: Ed Wall
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	Trying to find Ed Wall, can you please write?

					JHS

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 14:19:19 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:14:25 -0700 Date: 03 Jul 97 17:13:03 EDT
From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 CompuServe.COM> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Free Energy Demo
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Gnorts, Vorts,

Anyone know more about this?  Any plans to attend?

Terry (isn't hackensack a kid's game?)

	~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                                PRESS RELEASE

                THE INTERNATIONAL TESLA ELECTRIC COMPANY

Where:  Empire Blvd, South Hackensack, New Jersey When: Free Public Showing of A Free Electricity Device On, Sat. July 12th at noon

Details:

The general public and the media are invited to witness a demonstration of a technology that can provide 100% of the energy needs for any home at no operating cost.  It can produce all the heating, cooling, electricity and other power needs for the average home with loads of energy left over.

Other technical breakthroughs will also be demonstrated.  These will include ways to modify existing vehicles of all types and sizes so they can be powered without any gasoline, diesel or even batteries and operate at no cost and with absolutely no negative impact on the environment.  We will display engines and actual models of the technologies.  We will run an internal combustion engine on water.  We will burn water and even weld steel with it.  We will show a porduct that can help crops grow bigger produce, without pesticides or any chemical fertilizers.  We will reveal a new building product to build a maintenance free homes that will need no re-roofing or paint for 2000 years.  Unlimited free fresh water... neutralize radioactive waste

                        Pure science, no politics.  Witness what is
                        really
possible!

                                To be a part of history, Call (973) 827-9901 for reservations.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 16:09:32 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:07:42 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:06:58 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Bachristochrone curves
Cc: Vortex <vortex-l mail.eskimo.com>
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At 1:08 PM 7/3/97, Steve Ekwall wrote:
[snip]
>Trying to 'see this', do you mean (ascii) */U\*/U\*/U\*.....etc loop!
[snip]
>
>Finally, while I can't find B.Curve / "Bachristochrone" in my Encyclopedia
>of PHYSICS (2nd Edition) VCH Publishers, Inc. ISBN 3-527-26945-1, I would
>like your's & others interpertations of how "we're" pronouncing it..
>  Is it (Bock' or Back'-risto-Kron-ee)  or (Ba-christ'-o-kron)?  Thanks.
>
>
> se
>------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
>-=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150


The word is brachistocrone (shortest time) and is pronounced "bra-kist'-o-crone".

I meant something like:



Ball Direction --->            Cusp                                Cusp

                                  X                                    X
                               X                                   X o                           X    o                              X   o  o                      X      o   o                        X     o   o
    o               X      o          o                 X      o          o
         o     ->   o                      o            o


    o - ball path
    X - magnet array on rising portion of ball path




Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 17:05:18 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:07:24 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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To: rhobbs aol.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: NO Scanner - No Prob: KODAK: FYIO Resent-Message-ID: <"XFfGS1.0.i25.Ss3lp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Hi,
  I'm not much of a photo-buff, and/so you might already know about this.
KODAK's Film (35mm example) can be processed in their Picture Disk Format. 
(Images return in *.JPG and TMB(thumbnail) The whole 'roll' returns on a 3 1/2" INCLUDING a GREAT little Program by AccuSoft to View 'em, Edit em, Crop'm and make Photo Folders , export 'em to.. etc.
  I had been holding off on my homepage for $$scanner$$ capibilities.

Normal 35mm (24 shots x 400Gold) Film costs about $4.95

Picture Disk (24 shots x 400Gold) 3 1/2" Floppie PC format.
                                  All .JPG & TMB(s).
                                  orginal Negatives Returned!
                              24  4x6" PRINTS (hardcopy) normal,
                                  attached in a "display folder."
                                  PC Win3.1+ AccuSoft View Sofware.
                                & Thumbnail Hardcopy of All PICs
                                  are included for $13.74

For about $9.00 more, I was impressed! Process TIME = Same.

Thought this might be of interest to those just starting a home page and or didn't have access to a scanner etc.

------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 17:17:15 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:15:17 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:15:09 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Any 4th of July Demo Ideas? 
Resent-Message-ID: <"wcf_s.0.dJ5.K24lp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Another somewhat dangerous demo:

      Flaming driveway Cellular Automata!

(maybe don't show kids how to do this one!):

Materials:
 can of lighter fluid
 CO2 fire extinguisher
 lighter or matches
 damp driveway
 cool windless evening

Hose down your driveway (or sidewalk, for the small version)

Use the can of lighter fluid to squirt lines of flammable liquid on the wet surface.

Touch it off with a match.

The above would just be simple arson, were it not for the fascinating patterns which develop.  The result is not a flaming pattern, instead it is a small blue "will-o-wisp" flame which rushes to and fro along the lines of lighter fluid. 

If you create a fairly thick pool of liquid, it will burn continuously and will act as a central generator for the small blue flames.  A thick pool connected to a thin line of liquid will generate a row of moving blue flames.

I presume that this is caused by buildup of flammable vapor over a shallow pool of liquid which is too cool itself to burn.  The flame front rushes over the liquid and consumes the vapor, leaving no flame in its wake, and the vapor builds up again until ready for the next flame front. 

If you draw a circle and touch a flame to one point, two little flames will rush off in opposite directions, only to annihilate each other when they meet at the opposite side.  Knowing the "jellyfish neurons" effect, where permanent standing waves can be induced on moon jelly rims, I performed a similar trick.  Make a lighter-fluid circle, place a (nonflammable!) object to block the path, then touch a match to the circle and remove the object.  The object extinguishes the flame front in one dirction, and the flame front going the other way will rotate in the circle many times (maybe even continuously until the fuel is exhausted.) A circle having some straight paths connected to it will launch periodic flames down the straight paths as the circulating pulse divides at the junctions.

A narrow track with a burning pool at either end will create a battle between the flame fronts, and the location of the annihilation point will drift back and forth.  Momentarily interposing an object in the path can reset the "null point".

Burning pools, parallel tracks, circles, and branching tracks can be created which give complicated flame patterns.  The lighter fluid tends to evaporate quickly, so work fast when creating new patterns.

I expect that all these can be visualized with a Cellular Automata simulator.  In the real world, the flame fronts duplicate the wavefronts of heart beat on cardiac muscle.  Burning pools act as pacemakers, and the medium has a natural recovery time.  The tail-chasing circle-oscillator flames are an accurate simulation of heartbeat waves occurring during ventricular fibrillation.

Do I need to point out the many dangers in doing this?  Make sure no flammable materials (leaves, dry lawn, etc.) are near your driveway.
Obviously don't try this indoors!  Use only lighter fluid (naphalene, I think?)  Never spray more fluid on a pattern that's already burning.  Take care to avoid the missing leg-hair effect (and the possible human torch effect!)

- Bill "still gots all my leg hair" Beaty


P.S. Dry ice in a 2L plastic soda bottle makes a passable "firecracker", and dry ice is usually easier to obtain than LN2.  Be aware that dry ice bombs can take up to a couple of hours to pop!  Watch out, sometimes the neck assembly of PET bottles fractures, and launches a dangerous heavy fragment.  Idea:  wrap nichrome wire around a pressurized soda bottle in order to electrically trigger the blast.  Build seventeen of these wired to a keyboard and treat the neighborhood to Blue Danube Waltz, "Exploding Version."  The Exploding Version of the William Tell Overture would take a couple of hundred...  ;) 

.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117  billb eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 19:10:06 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 22:07:18 -0400
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net> Organization: NASA (Retired)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Any 4th of July Demo Ideas?
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970703171204.26731B-100000 eskimo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"bR3n82.0.IV1.Xh5lp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> Another somewhat dangerous demo:
> 
>       Flaming driveway Cellular Automata!
> 

Hey, Bill!  I think you should take this "dancing flames" show on the road - as per River Dance, etc.  I hope you have a flashy pair of tights to show off your stuff!  I can see it now - "Lord of the Flames"...

Frank Stenger

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  4 00:20:51 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:18:55 -0700 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:51:43 +0800 (SGT) X-Sender: mpowers8@po.pacific.net.sg
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: mpower consultants <mpowers8 pacific.net.sg> Subject: Re: Any 4th of July Demo Ideas? 
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William Beaty posted the following (edited for brevity) at 17:15 1997.07.03 -0700:
>Another somewhat dangerous demo:
>
>      Flaming driveway Cellular Automata!
>
<all the really important stuff snipped per management policy>
>
>P.S. Dry ice in a 2L plastic soda bottle makes a passable "firecracker",
>and dry ice is usually easier to obtain than LN2.  Be aware that dry ice
>bombs can take up to a couple of hours to pop! 

You can speed it up considerably: stick it in the microwave for a while ...

> Watch out, sometimes the
>neck assembly of PET bottles fractures, and launches a dangerous heavy
>fragment.  Idea:  wrap nichrome wire around a pressurized soda bottle in
>order to electrically trigger the blast.  Build seventeen of these wired
>to a keyboard and treat the neighborhood to Blue Danube Waltz, "Exploding
>Version."  The Exploding Version of the William Tell Overture would take a
>couple of hundred...  ;) 
>
>.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
>William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
>EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
>Seattle, WA 98117  billb eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 22:17:36 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Date:      Fri, 04 Jul 1997 07:39:46 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" <peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: "vortex" <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com> Subject:   July 4!
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Dear Vortexers!

It is my pleasure to wish a very happy successful July 4, health, richness of all good kind and creative power to all our 
      American friends!
Peter
-- 
dr. Peter Gluck

Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology         Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700           Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania                                  Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  4 06:53:01 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 06:48:37 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:47:49 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com, hamdix@verisoft.com.tr Subject: Hamdi has also discovered correct answer Resent-Message-ID: <"Sr5DW1.0.rg7.pyFlp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Hamdi writes
Hi,

Although the inertia and mass concepts are well explained within special relativity, I would like to show how is inertia is manifesting in photon interactions.

Let be a freely moveable system consisting the parallel mirrors able to reflect the light inside multiple of times for a period enough to make measurements. The experiment is to measure the inertia of the system with and without the light by pushing it on the direction of the mirrors (the direction of the pathway of the light). We know that inertia of the system is increased when a light is present between mirrors from the E=mc2. The total mass is increased by contribution the mass equivalent energy of the light, so the force needed to accelerate the system is increased. But how this extra force is applied to the photons and how the photons are storing the gained this energy?
..............................................................................
........................
Znidarsic replies

Hamdi you are correct..I have  done the same on my paper the source of inertial and gravitational mass on electromagnum.  Jennison has also done the same.

Now you must follow the same path as I have.

The reflection of the matter wave at the surface produces a force  2E/c

This force produces the gravitational field of matter

field = F(dp/dt)/ccr

Near field components come out of the analysis.  The rotoation of these near field compontents results in the Tampere effect.

The superposition of the orginal wave (Compton wavelength) and it  doppler shifted component (reflected off of the mirror) produces the DeBroglie wavelength of matter.

Hamdi,,download my book on disk for free from my web site.  Requires windows.
I like your work.  You are on the right track.  Now you must expand you model.  This expansion will cut deep.  

Hamdi one error in you analysis is that the wave that "reflects off of the mirror" in your analysis is a matter wave not an electromagnetic wave.  I made the same mistake until I began to analyze the constants involved with the strong nuclear/ nuclear spin orbit force.


 fznidarsic aol.com
481 Boyer St.                   http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html Johnstown, Pa.   15906


Automatic links:<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html"> Home_Page</A>
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X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  4 07:06:32 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 07:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:02:36 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Ragland Triode Run #3 update
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Gnorts, Gang:

Run #3 has been underway for about 6-7 days now.  It has a stock Alfa Pd cathode that was polished to a mirror finish by Dennis Letts.  

The calorimeter is not working very well on this run due, we think, to a sort-of erratic hysteresis in the thermistors that has resulted in a significant "surprise" offset in the delta-T measurement.  As Chris suggests, it may be due to moisture seeping into the thermal wells...the previous run ended with a serious leak which dumped water all over the probes and everything else.

Anyway, the system has been relatively stable throughout the run with Pout/Pin ratios typically in the 0.95-0.97 range.  There has been no evidence of significant excess heat.

If no excess heat appears over the weekend, Run #3 will be ended early next week (after about 10 days...unless someone talks me into waiting longer) and we will move on to some experimental cathodes recently provided by Ragland which consist of Pd coatings applied to base metal substrates.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  4 11:24:50 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:22:35 -0700 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 07:40:02 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Sample and hold temperature measurement Resent-Message-ID: <"CFUN03.0.7h4.ezJlp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Earlier I couldn't recall the names of the circuits to sample a voltage and act as a "voltage memory".  These are called "sample and hold" circuits and have a useful cousin the "peak detect" circuit.  A handy IC that does sample and hold accurately is the AD585 which has an aquisition time of 3 usec for 0.01% accuracy following a 10 V step.  There is also the LF398 which is cheaper, but not as fast or accurate.

It's just a matter of applying a sufficiently long reference voltage square pulse to the temperature probe bridge (preferably very close by) and then delaying the rise time duration before triggering a sample and hold. Repeat periodically and scale the output voltage to 5V range and smooth the "sample and hold" output with RC filter and your computer will never know you are sampling.

An accuracy of 0.01 percent is ho-um on an absolute basis, but very significant if applied to measuring small temperature (probe resistance) differences, like across a Patterson Power Cell.  Measuring probe resistance differences, e.g. by use of a voltage differential op-amp, also eliminates the need for extreme accuracy in a voltage reference source.
Voltage sources tend to drift with ambient temperature.

Converting differences to temperature drop requires also knowing the approximate absoltute temperatures, so the slope of the temp. vs resistance curve is known. RTDs have a much flatter curve than thermistors so should be better for this approach.

I still suspect a crystal frequency shift based approach will provide better accuracy on an absolute basis.

Earlier I wrote:

Personally, I think maybe the continual measurement current technique that is typicallly used has room for improvement.  I think pulsed sensing is very feasible, and would greatly reduce self heating effects.  It would only take a voltage clamping or "voltage memory" circuit similar to that used in digital oscilloscopes (except only 1 data point!) to sample the voltage from a bridge being pulsed and then an A to D converter as usual.
Provided the leads to the probe were twisted pair (preferably shielded) or coax, a reliable calibration should be feasible.  A 10 usec pulse should do the job, and would cut the self heating effects down by a factor of 10^5.
This should work work OK for both thermistors or RTDs that have low inductance - like thin film RTDs.


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  4 11:19:01 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: 04 Jul 97 14:14:33 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Ragland Triode Run #3 update
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To: Vortex

Scott Little writes:

    If no excess heat appears over the weekend, Run #3 will be ended early
    next week (after about 10 days...unless someone talks me into waiting
    longer) . . .

This is much too soon. I urge you to run 3 to 4 weeks at least. If there is something vitally wrong with the calorimeter, interrupt the run, fix it, and continue. It makes no sense to run a Pd CF experiment for only 10 days, when so many people have reported that excess heat appears after weeks.

- Jed

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  4 11:45:18 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:48:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Apoligy extended
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Rick,

  Sorry. And to other Vortex'ers too.
(Guess I was always the class clown, so you taught me another lesson!)

I will watch it more carefully.. (no excuse, but started the Fourth/July  Weekend to soon?)  Happy 4th to you & yours. :) Again, my apoligies, just trying to point out that waste can be benifical, if not stock-piled - but re-cycled for all content(s).

se
------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

p.s. I've saved many of your enlightening post too :) Thanks for being out there and giving your wisdom to the group.























Does Soo really have 100Mg.Zip(ers)?  :)

(somebody shoot that clown:)


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  4 12:00:20 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:58:51 -0700 From: Puthoff@aol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:58:15 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cassimir revisited
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In a message dated 6/27/97 2:43:12 PM, Robin wrote:

<<> At what separation would the Cassimir force between two protons exceed
> the electrostatic repulsion? 
> ---
> Someone else answered:
> If I recall, the Casimir force between two spheres
> (conducting spheres) is *repulsive*,>>

No, the Casimir force between two spheres is still attractive (Mostepanenko & Sokolov, Sov Phys Dokl vol 33, p. 140, Feb 1988).  What is repulsive is the Casimir force on a single conducting sphere, which tends to expand rather than contract the sphere (Boyer, Phys Rev vol 174, p. 1764, 1968).

The separation at which Casimir/van der Waals would overcome Coulomb between protons is ~10^15 cm, which exceeds the meaningfulness of the calculation.
 At this distance confinement is opposed by yet another force, the so-called "Schrodinger pressure," a force tht resists particle confinement due to the wave nature of matter that can be seen as deriving from a combination of the uncertainty and Pauli exclusion principles (see Weisskopf, Science vol 187, p. 605, 1975).  Balance of this force (~h-bar^2/MR^3) by van der Waals force cannot be achieved under realistic conditions.

Hal Puthoff


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  3 18:05:08 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:41:04 +1000
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From: Geoff Egel <egel main.murray.net.au> Subject: Re: Off topic
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At 04:39 AM 7/2/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Seriously off topic ... just fun.
>
>We saw a realo-trulo British tornado at the weekend.  It never reached
>the ground - not the black core - but someone with a better view got a
>camcorder to it, and the result was on local television.  Very dramatic,
>even if it was a bit teensy-weensy compared to the kind Scott Little
>must know and love.  A lot of debris flying about, they say, and
>certainly I've not often seen rain like the kind that accompanied it.
>
>It was funny, really.  Soo spotted it first, and said, "Look at that
>split in the clouds - it looks like a tornado!"  I stared, and stared
>again.  "It *is* a tornado.  Let's chase it in the car!"
>
>Next - kids starting young.  One small boy in Sweden watched a TV show
>about archaeology, and declared to his parents that he wanted to make
>the subject his career.  The next day, at his nursery school, he saw
>something odd about the rocks close by.  Taking a brush in his tiny
>hand, he removed the dirt from the rocks - and revealed ancient
>inscriptions.
>
>Then another small boy - only three years old this time - told his daddy
>that the funny-looking rock he'd found was a fossilised dinosaur egg.
>Yes, you guessed, despite general scepticism it *was* a dino egg.
>
>I'm sorry I don't have the names, this was on the TV (ITV, actually)
>teletext last week and I didn't note all the details.
>
>Oddly enough, I find all this infant genius mildly depressing...
>
>Chris
>
>don't  be too depressed most infant genius's will grow out of it if they get normal schooling
Geoff
http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  4 15:27:59 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:23:20 -0700 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:39:56 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: lucky results
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At 12:28 AM 7/1/97, Scott Little wrote: [snip]
>The system is still quite satisfactory for the purpose at hand although the
>zero drift problem is rather annoying.  RUN #3, presently underway, is
>suffering from the zero problem a bit.  Pout is regularly about 0.15 watts
>less than Pin because of it.
>
>I am open to suggestions for a temp sensing element that has long-term
>repeatability/stability of better than 0.01C.  As far as I can see, none of
>the standard types (thermocouple, RTD, thermistor, etc.) are ever advertised
>to have such a performance.  Perhaps this is just one of those areas where
>you have to develop your own stuff.  I know HP had/has some pretty fantastic
>temp instruments for a pretty big price but I doubt if they would be
>practical for this purpose.
>
>The beauty of thermistors is that, with nothing more than a matching fixed
>resistor and a stable voltage supply, you can connect them directly to yr
>ADC board and, voila, yr computer knows the temperature.  RTD's and
>thermocouples both require some extra electronics ($$) in order to get their
>results.
>
>Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
>Scott Little


Could you describe your zero drift problem a bit more?  It seems to me that resistors should have a constant resistance at a constant temperature, be they thermistors or RTDs, diodes, etc.  It seems like the problem, if not dampness, may not be with the sensor, but with the electronics, or the configuration.

I wonder if the lab is cooler at night?  This would change the resistance of the reference resistor, change the reference voltage supplied to the bridge as well, and possibly the A/D conversion also, as that requires a reference voltage.  A change in ambient temperature even changes the resistance of the test leads.

Also, since you are putting your thermistors in glass tubes, the air inside acts as an insulator.  Maybe oil would help their time constant significantly?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  4 17:46:20 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 17:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:43:48 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
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At 14:14 7/4/97 EDT, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>This is much too soon. I urge you to run 3 to 4 weeks at least.
>It makes no sense to run a Pd CF experiment for only 10 days, when
>so many people have reported that excess heat appears after weeks.

Thanks for the advice, Jed. You've probably read a more Pd-D20 experiment reports than I have...what would you estimate the mean time before excess heat appears to be?  

I think Ed Storms might say about 1 week...I'll ask him and report back here.

>If there is something vitally wrong with the calorimeter...

no...it's just reading 95% instead of ~100% like it did the first two times.
It'll suffice as is to detect about 10% excess...I can always do a new zero run at the end of this run to confirm my suspicions about the surprise offset.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 12:43:54 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:42:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:39:37 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: More on SMOT
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Chris -

   >  Actually, I think the ideal SMOT (I'm suspending disbelief
   >  for the purpose of experiment) would have a huge lift but with a very
   >  slow ball speed.  However, I don't know how to design magnet arrays to
   >  have that behaviour.

Of course you can slow things doen somewhat by setting the track spacing as wide as possible. I think Epitaxy might have something going in that regard too with the larger ball of lower density he uses, not to mention the ferrite advantage. I keep envisioning versions of a flywheel on a shaft with a bubber coated track roller for less slip, eventually leading to a rack and roller-pinion version, but I know I don't have the time.

But as to all this 'off-book' fiddling and tweaking, you and others have said this before: wait for the kits. I'm just rather disappointed that not only have I failed to get a rollaway or other sign of OU, but that I have not been technically able to *reproduce* the darn thing to the degree of accuracy necessary to give it a fair look.

Oh by the way, thanks for the image of the gorgeous and pouting Soo. Wow, the *eyes*!

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

(PS - and it's not like I didn't see *that* one coming... <g>)


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  4 20:24:30 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:22:19 -0700 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:21:39 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Ragland Triode Run #3 update Resent-Message-ID: <"E0--33.0._b6.htRlp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 7:43 PM 7/4/97, Scott Little wrote:
>At 14:14 7/4/97 EDT, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>>This is much too soon. I urge you to run 3 to 4 weeks at least.
>>It makes no sense to run a Pd CF experiment for only 10 days, when
>>so many people have reported that excess heat appears after weeks.
>
>Thanks for the advice, Jed. You've probably read a more Pd-D20 experiment
>reports than I have...what would you estimate the mean time before excess
>heat appears to be?
>
>I think Ed Storms might say about 1 week...I'll ask him and report back here.
>
>>If there is something vitally wrong with the calorimeter...
>
>no...it's just reading 95% instead of ~100% like it did the first two times.
>It'll suffice as is to detect about 10% excess...I can always do a new zero
>run at the end of this run to confirm my suspicions about the surprise offset.
>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little


My fingers are crossed for luck that your calorimeter is low now and was low before.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  4 20:37:50 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:35:35 -0700 From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cassimir revisited
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 03:35:14 GMT
Organization: Improving
References: <970704145814_-1642730652 emout06.mail.aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"yS_cn3.0.ks6.74Slp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:58:15 -0400 (EDT), Puthoff aol.com wrote:

Thanks for the reply Hal. 
[snip]
>The separation at which Casimir/van der Waals would overcome Coulomb between
>protons is ~10^15 cm, which exceeds the meaningfulness of the calculation.
I presume this was meant to be 10^-15 cm?
[snip]

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  4 20:37:33 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:36:29 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ragland Triode Run #3 update Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 03:35:16 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:02:36 -0500 (CDT), Scott Little wrote:

>Gnorts, Gang:
>
>Run #3 has been underway for about 6-7 days now.  It has a stock Alfa Pd
>cathode that was polished to a mirror finish by Dennis Letts.  
>
[snip]
Scott, 

Could (would?) Ragland provide you with a cell that he claims works, for you to measure in your calorimeter? This would go some way to eliminating any experimental or interpretational error that Ragland may himself be introducing. At least it would provide a dividing line that breaks the problem into two parts.


Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  4 21:47:11 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:44:50 -0700 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:44:38 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: zero drift problem
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Horace asks for a better description:

There are two precision "0.2C interchangeable" BetaTherm thermistors involved, one located in the inlet water stream and one in the outlet water stream.  These devices are guaranteed to be accurate to 0.2C over the range 0-70C.  Thus any pair of these devices can be expected to have quite similar sensitivity to temperature (i.e. slope) but, of course, they are also expected to be different from each other at any given temperature by as much as 0.4C.

For accurate "delta-T work" using two sensors, it is therefore necessary to measure the actual offset between the two sensors and to subtract that value from the raw delta-T reading to obtain the "net delta-T" value...i.e. the true delta-T.

When we first constructed this calorimeter, the offset (at 20C) was about 0.09C.  Now the offset has apparently drifted down to about -0.01C, a change of 0.1C.  Most unfortunately, the offset still does not appear to be stable.
Every time we check the offset (perform a run with zero input power) we obtain a slightly different result, typically within 0.03C of the previous result.

In this calorimeter we have a cooling water flow rate of about .87g/sec which gives an effective thermal conductivity of ~3.6 watts/C so a 0.1C error in delta-T produces a 0.36 watt error in the heat output power reading.

This is about the size of the present error which is causing the system, operating at 6-7 watts input, to produce a Pout/Pin of 0.95.

We are using precision, low temp coeff R's for all the fixed resistors.  The constant voltage is obtained with an LM317 which is controlled also with precision, low temp coeff R's.  The problem does not correlate with room temp but rather with time and previous operating history (i.e. like hysteresis).

The thermistor is shoved tightly against the carefully fused end of a 4mm glass tube and there it is immersed in a generous bed of thermal heat-sink compound which couples the thermistor to the walls of the glass tube.  The wire leads are twisted and, where they exit the open end of the glass tube, they are secured via several layers of heat-shrink tubing which serves to more-or-less seal off the probe assembly and prevent accidental withdrawal of the thermistor. However, the closure is not gas-tight.

BTW, we have empirically demonstrated that a 1" immersion depth is sufficient to make these probes read virtually identical to the bath temperature even when the bath is 20C above ambient.  In our present calorimeter the probes have a 1.5" immersion depth "just to be sure".

Horace, your suggestion to use pulsed voltages to read thermistors is very good. You continue to impress me with your creative thinking. FYI, there is a National Semiconductor Application Note for one of their PWM chips which describes exactly such a setup for making precision thermistor measurements.
In their case, they applied short 50 volt pulses and, as you suggested, use a sample & hold device to make the reading continuous for the subsequent circuitry.  

Our present problem, however, has nothing to do with how precisely we can read the thermistors...instead it's all about how precisely the thermistors repeat themselves.

One other point:  We are using the reading from the inlet water thermistor to control the temperature of the inlet water.  Thus the observed shift in offset is actually the sum of the individual shifts of the two thermistors involved and there is no easy way to tell which of them is doing most of the shifting.

Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  4 21:47:13 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:44:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:44:39 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little <little@eden.com>
Subject: Re: Ragland Triode Run #3 update Resent-Message-ID: <"KePGo2.0.gr.05Tlp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 03:35 AM 7/5/97 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Could (would?) Ragland provide you with a cell that he claims works,
>for you to measure in your calorimeter?

Robin, I am sure he would if he could.  But he has not been running any experiments for some time in his own lab.  Ragland ran very positive experiments for a good while (about a year, I think) and then apparently quit the lab work to file patents, write papers about what he thought was going on, and start drumming up potential development partners, etc.

He's quite puzzled over the lack of success that has befallen Tinsley and myself.  Perhaps he will resume his own lab work in due course.

Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  4 22:16:34 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:14:24 -0700 From: Puthoff@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:14:16 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cassimir revisited
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In a message dated 7/5/97 4:38:18 AM, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote:

<<I presume this was meant to be 10^-15 cm?>>

Yes, sorry for the mistake  (Van der Waals force = Coulomb force).

Hal Puthoff

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 09:59:37 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 22:50:10 -0700
From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller)
Reply-To: tom gorge.net
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: July 4!
References: <199707040638.XAA02964 mx2.eskimo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"o5jla3.0.0V6.Dqdlp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Reading the kind thoughts from Dr. Glueck, and watching fireworks displays has made me contemplative, and not a little morose.

Consider crowds of thousands, watching fireworks displays. How many have any sense of what the fireworks signify. They may have some hazy idea of 221 years ago, when our ancestors fought to control their own destiny.  We fought to be free from British domination, and now the Brits are about our best friends.

Then I think about the most recent fireworks display, in HonG Kong.
Our news people (the idiots) gushed about how wonderful the whole changeover was. One said that it was so grand that this was the first time Communists had taken over with shooting anybody.

I am willing to be pleasantly surprised if THAT rosy scenario lasts for very long.  One nation has fireworks to celebrate its freedom, and another "celebrates" six million souls, a prosperous nation, being remove from British domination, and shoved, willy nilly, into the last great totalitarian nation. A nation of a billion people, who cannot handle their own fireworks display. They had to buy the pyritechnics from Austrailia, and get an american to set them off.

Consider how they must feel, that vst number who had earlier fled the opression on the mainland, only to find they must now re-enter the dragon.

If anyone is reading this in China--please don't put your hopes in "democracy." Democracy very precisely means: "mob rule."  What you, and everybody else 
in the world needs is liberty. Everybody desperately needs freedom from opression and corruption.  Democracy is only a means of maintaining liberty,
once it attained.  I wish I could say that you can expect us, the free world, 
to help you. I cannot speak to Europe, but America is so ridden with corruption and hedonism that we are unlikely to be of any help.

The fireworks are, or should be, areminder that the price of liberty is not 
just "eternal vigilance."  The price of liberty is paid in the blood of those willing to lay down their own life, so that others might be free.

People whohave never seen war, and who are only willing to sacrifice for a
new BMW, will never understand.

end of rant.

Tom Miller

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 04:33:27 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 04:30:08 -0700 Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 11:10:30 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hamdi has also discovered correct answer References: <970704094749_-1126157876 emout01.mail.aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"swWe5.0.cj7.01Zlp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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(Discussion on "Inertia of Light (Part I)")

Hi Frank,

Are we really needed the photon-electron interaction model to explain the inertia of the light? If longer wavelengths are used as radio waves and optical mirrors are replaced by conductor planes still the experiment should give similar result. So the structure of the matter (how the photon is scattered may have little importance). I think that if we deal only the electromagnetism, the classical EM theory should be enough the examine the inertia of light. Otherwise this experiment will be a case of the classical EM theory is incapable or failed to explain it (I don't think so).

But if you deal with the gravity, this a different issue. Nor the relativity, neither the EM theory is unable the explain the source of the gravity. So we need a new theory for this. But a similar question is also raising here:

Is the photon or a EM wave of any nature or any field carrying energy creating their own gravitational fields? (according mass - energy equivalence principle)

If so, any theory or a model explaining the gravity should be extended to include the EM originated gravitation. This suggestion is interesting beyond relativity because, some recent works going to explain the gravity as a part of electromagnetism.

I could not locate your papers on your site to read them. Could you give me the exact path to access them.

A Question before following  your path:

> Hamdi one error in you analysis is that the wave that "reflects off of
> the mirror" in your analysis is a matter wave not an electromagnetic
> wave.  I made the same mistake until I began to analyze the constants
> involved with the strong nuclear/ nuclear spin orbit force.

If I can successfully explain the this inertia (also by the calculations)  with classical terms, without using the photon concept (the particle nature of the electromagnetic waves), still did I made an error? 


Regards,

Hamdi Ucar

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 00:58:16 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:55:54 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:55:46 +0800 (SGT) X-Sender: mpowers8@po.pacific.net.sg
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: mpower consultants <mpowers8 pacific.net.sg> Subject: Correction Re: a curious vortex Resent-Message-ID: <"Fe7FI1.0.wy4.9uVlp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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mpower consultants posted the following (edited for brevity) at 17:18 1997.07.01 +0800:
>
<snip all the other>
>
>The vortex forms on the outside of a wire electrode suspended vertically
> into tap water 

<snipped all the rest> 

I found the cause of the vortex, 
 it was a geometry problem after all
  sorry to bother ....

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 01:51:31 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:48:34 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: zero drift problem
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At 11:44 PM 7/4/97, Scott Little wrote: [snip wonderfully detailed account]
>
>Our present problem, however, has nothing to do with how precisely we can
>read the thermistors...instead it's all about how precisely the thermistors
>repeat themselves.
>
>One other point:  We are using the reading from the inlet water thermistor
>to control the temperature of the inlet water.  Thus the observed shift in
>offset is actually the sum of the individual shifts of the two thermistors
>involved and there is no easy way to tell which of them is doing most of the
>shifting.
>
>Scott Little


A good test should be to add a couple more thermistors or more into each of the probes if you have room, otherwise to add some more probes in close proximity.  That should tell you for sure what is going on.  Maybe also check each of them with a good ohmmeter at calibration and recheck times.


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 07:45:28 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 07:42:41 -0700 X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 10:41:04 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: comments on Hamdi
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At 10:35 AM 7/5/97 -0400, Frank wrote:
>Handi writes about the gravitational mass of a photon
>
>..........................................................
>But if you deal with the gravity, this a different issue. Nor the
>relativity, neither the EM theory is unable the explain the source of
>the gravity. So we need a new theory for this. But a similar question is
>also raising here:
>........................................................................
>Znidarsic replies.  Extending your original ideas about the "matter wave"
>being reflected off of a mirror like surface I brought out that there was a
>force produced at as the matter wave reflects off of the surface.
>
>This force produces the grav field of matter
>
>field = G(dp/dt)ccr
>
>Now as for the "grav mass' of a photon it must be produced by a force also.
>A photon experiences a force as it travels through Hubbles constant H.
>
>Force = Hc
>
  
 Frank:

   Did you do any dimensional analysis of this?
 
  What is a Force?

   Are the units of force really cm/sec?

 =====================================================

>I've stuck this force into  field = G(dp/dt)/ccr and derived the grav mass of
>a photon.

  What are the dimensions of a field?


   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 07:38:37 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 07:37:24 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 10:35:53 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: comments on Hamdi
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Handi writes about the gravitational mass of a photon

..........................................................
But if you deal with the gravity, this a different issue. Nor the relativity, neither the EM theory is unable the explain the source of the gravity. So we need a new theory for this. But a similar question is also raising here:
........................................................................
Znidarsic replies.  Extending your original ideas about the "matter wave" being reflected off of a mirror like surface I brought out that there was a force produced at as the matter wave reflects off of the surface.

This force produces the grav field of matter

field = G(dp/dt)ccr

Now as for the "grav mass' of a photon it must be produced by a force also.
A photon experiences a force as it travels through Hubbles constant H.

Force = Hc

I've stuck this force into  field = G(dp/dt)/ccr and derived the grav mass of a photon.

 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/form.html">REGISTRATION FORM</A>

Frank Znidarsic 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 11:04:41 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 11:00:55 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 11:00:50 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I stumbled across Scientific American's "Ask an Expert" page and found: http://www.sciam.com/askexpert/physics.html#acs109
   
   What is the current scientific thinking on cold fusion? 
   Is there any possible validity to this phenomenon?

Lo and behold, there was an answer supplied by M. Schaffer.  He mentions ICCFs, Patterson, Mizuno, Lonchampt, etc.  Is SciAm reversing its stance that CF is pseudoscience, fit only for Lyndon Larouche and royal drug runners?  I wonder how long it will be before the anti-CF people force SciAm to remove the posting. 

Excerpts:

   "Because cold fusion is still an unresolved and controversial subject
   that generates strong opinions and passionate debate among scientists..

   "There is no widely accepted theory that might explain such effects,
   however. Therefore, most of the scientific community concluded that the
   'Pons and Fleischmann effect' was experimental error.

   "So, what is the current scientific thinking on cold fusion? Frankly,
   most scientists have not followed the field since the disenchantment
   of 1989 and 1990. They typically still dismiss cold fusion as
   experimental error, but most of them are unaware of the newly reported
   results...
   
.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117  billb eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 12:52:27 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 11:48:43 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: zero drift problem
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At 11:44 PM 7/4/97, Scott Little wrote: [snip]
>Our present problem, however, has nothing to do with how precisely we can
>read the thermistors...instead it's all about how precisely the thermistors
>repeat themselves.
>
[snip]
>
>Scott Little

It occurred to me your problem may be due to noise, either electrical or thermal.

In the case of thermal noise additonal thermistors will help locate the problem, but increased sampling rates and statistical anlysis might do more to solve the problem.  A combination of approaches would be even better.
The idea would be, when taking a data point from a thermistor, to take a of fast bunch of samples, like 12, and look at the statistics.  This would help give error bars, and would determine if there is much noise involved in the readings.

Also, thermal noise (due to mixing problems) can be "corrected" statistically by digitally simulating a large time constant by using a running average, etc.  This would be partially simulated version of my temperature measuring stations, which were designed to avoid thermal noise and to check fo thermal equilibrium (by using two in series) etc.  A change in ambient temperature, along with a mixing problem, could create thermal noise.  So could convection near the cathode, which possibly heats in different ways depending on current direction.

Electrical noise seems a possible fit to your description of a day vs.
night problem.  Putting your scope on the test leads might resolve that issue very fast.  Could be you need some electrical shielding.

If you go the route of lots of thermistors then a 16 channel analog mux, like the HI-506 might be very handy.  Lots of good info on such in Horowitz and Hill, "The Art of Electronics".

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 12:59:10 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:57:38 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:56:04 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: dimensional analysis
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Yes I did.

One way to express Huble's constant is  in 1/seconds

c light speed is given in meters/ second

Hc = acceleration = meters/sec sec

force = mass x acceleration

force = E/cc  H c

field = G(dp/dt)/ccr

field = G(E/cc H c/ ccr

That's the basics of the analysis that I done.

Frank Z


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 15:52:27 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:50:00 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 14:49:19 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: zero drift problem
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For differential measurement you might want to consider using a type T thermocouple. (See p. Z-31 of OMEGA's "Temperature Handbook" and ASTM special publication 470A, "Manula on the use of Thermocouples in Temperature Measurement", Omega Press, Stamford CT, 06907, 1974.)

The standard configuration looks like:


 +            Cu
   o---------------------
                         \
                          o  T1
                         /
                        |
  V=a(T1-T2)            |  Constantan wire
                        |
                        |
                        |
                         \
                          o  T2  (ambient reference)
                         /
   o---------------------
 -            Cu


This thermocouple has the unique property that the main leads are copper, thus making lead compensation unnecessary if connected to copper terminals.
The wire error table indicates an error of less than one deg. C absolute, but it appears, if I read the table right, the differential error is  well under  0.75 percent. Since the voltage function is V=a(T1-T2) it should be easy to check the zero point at lots of temperatures, and even to check the constant "a" across the temperature range to be sure it is constant.

My thought is to use T1 for the CF cell electrolyte inlet and T2 for the outlet (no reference, the inlet temp. is the reference), in order to determine the differential temperature. It should be possible to insert the leads into very thin sealed glass capillary tubes filled with oil. Even wesson oil should work fine IMHO. Maybe insulate the wire and wrap with grounded sheath. Omega sells the wire.

This still won't cure a thermal noise problem, but digital sampling methods should work fine with thermocouples.  Need a differential op-amp with good linearity to scale up the voltage.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 16:07:25 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 16:05:02 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 18:04:56 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: zero drift problem
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At 02:49 PM 7/5/97 -0800, Horace wrote:

>For differential measurement you might want to consider using a type T
>thermocouple.
> +            Cu
>   o---------------------
>                         \
>                          o  T1
>                         /
>                        |
>  V=a(T1-T2)            |  Constantan wire
>                        |
>                        |
>                        |
>                         \
>                          o  T2  (ambient reference)
>                         /
>   o---------------------
> -            Cu

Nice idea!...seems like that would end the zero drift problems for good...no?

Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 17:43:06 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 17:41:40 -0700 From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Correction Re: a curious vortex Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 00:41:19 GMT
Organization: Improving
References: <2.2.16.19970705155621.2ae78eea po.pacific.net.sg> Resent-Message-ID: <"x3AHr1.0.yg3.3dklp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:55:46 +0800 (SGT), mpower consultants wrote: [snip]
>>The vortex forms on the outside of a wire electrode suspended vertically
>> into tap water 
>
><snipped all the rest> 
>
>I found the cause of the vortex, 
> it was a geometry problem after all
>  sorry to bother ....

This has now become even more intriguing than it was originally :) Please explain.



Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 19:01:30 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 18:59:50 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:56:12 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu> Subject: Lock In Amp zero drift problem Resent-Message-ID: <"Yd9n83.0.ta6.Lmllp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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	Dear Vo.,

	Lock In Amp

	Thr bridge is driven with AC sine wave derived from crystal.  
Crystal is divided down to a reasonable range, a little above the 5th harmonic of line, say 1,000 cps.   This then goes through analog low pass filter with corner at 900, two pole equal value Sallen-Key.
	Sine is passed through adjustable current buffer and drives bridge.
	Bridge output is amplified by classical 3 op amp instrumentation amp and AC coupled to buffer.  Buffer output is conveyed to lcok in amp which is using 1,000 clock as reference.
	Resultant is low pass filtered at corner of 100 cps.
	This method tends to cast out external noise and DC electrical drift.

	2 CMOS digital ICs, 2 quad op amps, one good quality single op amp, two diodes, one transistor.

					JHS


On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Horace Heffner wrote:

> For differential measurement you might want to consider using a type T
> thermocouple. (See p. Z-31 of OMEGA's "Temperature Handbook" and ASTM
> special publication 470A, "Manula on the use of Thermocouples in
> Temperature Measurement", Omega Press, Stamford CT, 06907, 1974.)
> 
> The standard configuration looks like:
> 
> 
>  +            Cu
>    o---------------------
>                          \
>                           o  T1
>                          /
>                         |
>   V=a(T1-T2)            |  Constantan wire
>                         |
>                         |
>                         |
>                          \
>                           o  T2  (ambient reference)
>                          /
>    o---------------------
>  -            Cu
> 
> 
> This thermocouple has the unique property that the main leads are copper,
> thus making lead compensation unnecessary if connected to copper terminals.
> The wire error table indicates an error of less than one deg. C absolute,
> but it appears, if I read the table right, the differential error is  well
> under  0.75 percent. Since the voltage function is V=a(T1-T2) it should be
> easy to check the zero point at lots of temperatures, and even to check the
> constant "a" across the temperature range to be sure it is constant.
> 
> My thought is to use T1 for the CF cell electrolyte inlet and T2 for the
> outlet (no reference, the inlet temp. is the reference), in order to
> determine the differential temperature. It should be possible to insert the
> leads into very thin sealed glass capillary tubes filled with oil. Even
> wesson oil should work fine IMHO. Maybe insulate the wire and wrap with
> grounded sheath. Omega sells the wire.
> 
> This still won't cure a thermal noise problem, but digital sampling methods
> should work fine with thermocouples.  Need a differential op-amp with good
> linearity to scale up the voltage.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 19:19:34 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 19:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: <@snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: The economics of cold fusion Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:15:55 -0400
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Tom Miller has some good points about the economic prospects of the CF processes, and Jed has also made good points. My footnotes:

A specialized process does not preclude global impact. Witness integrated circuit manufacturing, a process so demanding that only a handful of companies in the world can accomplish it at a competitve level. Note that it took a compelling need (telephone switching and the ICBM program) and massive funding (USAF) to establish the manufacturing technology. It is not a garage operation. 

But with ICs, the specialized zones of activity (transistors) are not consumables. With the CF processes, it appears that they are, for they are transmuted. As Peter Glueck has pointed out, CF activity is very probably in some sense catalytic. Witness the "magic" sources, collections of "good" cathodes, and the cautious public moves of CETI. 

"We" have no idea how to specify or reliably manufacture commercially useful cathodes. That does not prove that the do not or cannot exist. 

The compelling need for Low Energy Nuclear Reactions is in the remediation of nuclear waste, and possible elimination of the world's supply of plutonium. If CETI and the Cincinnati Group can mount convincing demonstrations to DoE and others, then enormous funding can be risked in scale-ups, even in the absence of well understood theory. 

During the Manhattan Project, alternative technologies were pursued in parallel and factories built for virtually unspecified processes. The present cost of radioactive waste disposal is so great that any workable alternative must be of compelling interest not only to the government, but to industry as well.

To do this, CETI and the CG need only convince a handful of technical people. That's a lot different from competing with domestic electricity and gas and gasoline. The cash flow and spinoffs of the remediation technology can fund a lot of product development. 

The other wildcard is that the compelling commercial market for the CF technologies is in the third world, who might be able to bypass the capital investment model of the Euro-American energy infrastructure on the way to achieving a prosperous civilization without pollution in the 21st century.
The catch is that the technology is in the US, but the natural market is elsewhere.Small startups will have a rough time achieving a global reach.
Note that BLP is having discussions with some Korean corporations. And Japan works quietly on.

Mike Carrell

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 20:12:14 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 20:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 23:10:46 -0400
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net> Organization: NASA (Retired)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: zero drift problem
References: <199707050444.XAA00294 natasha.eden.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"zURfM.0.Nu4.4pmlp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
(snip)

> The thermistor is shoved tightly against the carefully fused end of a 4mm
> glass tube and there it is immersed in a generous bed of thermal heat-sink
> compound which couples the thermistor to the walls of the glass tube.

Scott, this seems unlikely but perhaps the thermistors are being infiltrated by components from this heat-sink compound.  If the thermistors are tiny and encapsulated in some polymer, maybe something is diffusing in from the compound. Is the compound silicon grease based?
Maybe you could compare one as in the rig with a test unit, say coupled to the glass tube with a filled epoxy resin?  Just a thought. 

Frank Stenger

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 20:28:31 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 20:23:20 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:19:52 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: Mike Carrell <mikec@snip.net>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> Subject: Compelling need ....for nuclear remediation Resent-Message-ID: <"SZjpR3.0.Zf1.d-mlp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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	In letter below Mike cites travail in maturing technologiesof some types ... and a compleeing need for remediation of nuclear wastes.

	Wm A. Barker's work modifying the Coulomb barrier is simple, compared to IC manufacutre, is a dry process, non chemical, and works.  
The fit for the compelling need exists, it needs only to be applied.

	I personally have witnessed replication of the work.  The process performs as claimed in patent.

						JHS


On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Mike Carrell wrote:

> Tom Miller has some good points about the economic prospects of the CF
> processes, and Jed has also made good points. My footnotes:
> 
> A specialized process does not preclude global impact. Witness integrated
> circuit manufacturing, a process so demanding that only a handful of
> companies in the world can accomplish it at a competitve level. Note that
> it took a compelling need (telephone switching and the ICBM program) and
> massive funding (USAF) to establish the manufacturing technology. It is not
> a garage operation. 
> 
> But with ICs, the specialized zones of activity (transistors) are not
> consumables. With the CF processes, it appears that they are, for they are
> transmuted. As Peter Glueck has pointed out, CF activity is very probably
> in some sense catalytic. Witness the "magic" sources, collections of "good"
> cathodes, and the cautious public moves of CETI. 
> 
> "We" have no idea how to specify or reliably manufacture commercially
> useful cathodes. That does not prove that the do not or cannot exist. 
> 
> The compelling need for Low Energy Nuclear Reactions is in the remediation
> of nuclear waste, and possible elimination of the world's supply of
> plutonium. If CETI and the Cincinnati Group can mount convincing
> demonstrations to DoE and others, then enormous funding can be risked in
> scale-ups, even in the absence of well understood theory. 
> 
> During the Manhattan Project, alternative technologies were pursued in
> parallel and factories built for virtually unspecified processes. The
> present cost of radioactive waste disposal is so great that any workable
> alternative must be of compelling interest not only to the government, but
> to industry as well.
> 
> To do this, CETI and the CG need only convince a handful of technical
> people. That's a lot different from competing with domestic electricity and
> gas and gasoline. The cash flow and spinoffs of the remediation technology
> can fund a lot of product development. 
> 
> The other wildcard is that the compelling commercial market for the CF
> technologies is in the third world, who might be able to bypass the capital
> investment model of the Euro-American energy infrastructure on the way to
> achieving a prosperous civilization without pollution in the 21st century.
> The catch is that the technology is in the US, but the natural market is
> elsewhere.Small startups will have a rough time achieving a global reach.
> Note that BLP is having discussions with some Korean corporations. And
> Japan works quietly on.
> 
> Mike Carrell
> 
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 21:27:53 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 20:24:35 -0800
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From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Lock In Amp zero drift problem Cc: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"E3_4D.0.Dp6.cvnlp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 9:56 PM 7/5/97, John Schnurer wrote:
>        Dear Vo.,
>
>        Lock In Amp
>
>        Thr bridge is driven with AC sine wave derived from crystal.
>Crystal is divided down to a reasonable range, a little above the 5th
>harmonic of line, say 1,000 cps.   This then goes through analog low pass
>filter with corner at 900, two pole equal value Sallen-Key.
>        Sine is passed through adjustable current buffer and drives bridge.
>        Bridge output is amplified by classical 3 op amp instrumentation
>amp and AC coupled to buffer.  Buffer output is conveyed to lcok in amp
>which is using 1,000 clock as reference.
>        Resultant is low pass filtered at corner of 100 cps.
>        This method tends to cast out external noise and DC electrical drift.
>
>        2 CMOS digital ICs, 2 quad op amps, one good quality single op
>amp, two diodes, one transistor.
>
>                                        JHS
>
[snip]

An interresting idea for thermistors.

If I understand what you are saying, then maybe the filter corner needs to be below 0.1 cps?  But then you won't learn much about the thermal noise (i.e. rapid variations in temperature due to thermal mixing problems in the cell). Temperature shouldn't be jumping all over the place if mixing is good, however.  Also, I suspect Scott's glass tubing envelopes have a pretty large time constant as it is, so 0.1 cps is OK.  Avoiding DC drift sounds really useful.  However, getting a quick number of sample points can tell a lot about the noise, and also permit regression to determine dT/dt, noise error bars etc. Maybe a combination of the above with fast multiple sampling at about 10/sec. would work?   The above does preclude very fast sample and hold though.  Also, a distribution of sensors along the probe could tell a bit about the location of mixing problems. You just have a lot more data to work with to fight off the true sceptics.

I still think the large time constant temperature measuring station (TMS) is a good idea for use in some CF systems, especially as a backup for purposes of confirmational readings.  The only requirement for TMS use is good insulation of the tubing between the components.  One problem with the TMS (which consists mostly of electrolyte carrying tubing wrapped around a copper core enclosed in a small dewar) is fitting a bunch of them into a confined space like the dual method calorimeter.  The fact that the TMS works consistently with differing kinds of sensors and multiple sensors in the same station is useful, as is the total elimination of mixing problems, water and shorting problems, etc.  The type T thermocouple differential circuit is a natural for use with the TMS.  The TMSs can easily handle a pair of thermocouples between each successive TMS in the electrolyte loop to provide the delta Ts (giving two thermocouples per TMS), and multiple thermistor probes in each TMS to give absolute temperature.  A bit of overkill maybe, but one of these days one of these experiments may work fairly reliably and then it's going to take overkill to prove it.

Hopefully our brainstorming has given Scott some ideas to try.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 21:45:33 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:40:53 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Read the text  Re: Lock In Amp zero drift problem Resent-Message-ID: <"vfuat2.0.1C7.QBolp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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	Last filter corner is 100 cps.  Take as many points as you want.

On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 9:56 PM 7/5/97, John Schnurer wrote:
> >        Dear Vo.,
> >
> >        Lock In Amp
> >
> >        Thr bridge is driven with AC sine wave derived from crystal.
> >Crystal is divided down to a reasonable range, a little above the 5th
> >harmonic of line, say 1,000 cps.   This then goes through analog low pass
> >filter with corner at 900, two pole equal value Sallen-Key.
> >        Sine is passed through adjustable current buffer and drives bridge.
> >        Bridge output is amplified by classical 3 op amp instrumentation
> >amp and AC coupled to buffer.  Buffer output is conveyed to lcok in amp
> >which is using 1,000 clock as reference.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

> >        Resultant is low pass filtered at corner of 100 cps.
> >        This method tends to cast out external noise and DC electrical drift.


-----------------------------------------------------------------

	Similar to some gyro and LDT demodulators.

	External electrical noise is cast out to ratio of 1,000 to 100,000 to 1 ..... also used in photomultiplier tube work and optical work.


						JHS


> >
> >        2 CMOS digital ICs, 2 quad op amps, one good quality single op
> >amp, two diodes, one transistor.
> >
> >                                        JHS
> >
> [snip]
> 
> An interresting idea for thermistors.
> 
> If I understand what you are saying, then maybe the filter corner needs to
> be below 0.1 cps?  But then you won't learn much about the thermal noise
> (i.e. rapid variations in temperature due to thermal mixing problems in the
> cell). Temperature shouldn't be jumping all over the place if mixing is
> good, however.  Also, I suspect Scott's glass tubing envelopes have a
> pretty large time constant as it is, so 0.1 cps is OK.  Avoiding DC drift
> sounds really useful.  However, getting a quick number of sample points can
> tell a lot about the noise, and also permit regression to determine dT/dt,
> noise error bars etc. Maybe a combination of the above with fast multiple
> sampling at about 10/sec. would work?   The above does preclude very fast
> sample and hold though.  Also, a distribution of sensors along the probe
> could tell a bit about the location of mixing problems. You just have a lot
> more data to work with to fight off the true sceptics.
> 
> I still think the large time constant temperature measuring station (TMS)
> is a good idea for use in some CF systems, especially as a backup for
> purposes of confirmational readings.  The only requirement for TMS use is
> good insulation of the tubing between the components.  One problem with the
> TMS (which consists mostly of electrolyte carrying tubing wrapped around a
> copper core enclosed in a small dewar) is fitting a bunch of them into a
> confined space like the dual method calorimeter.  The fact that the TMS
> works consistently with differing kinds of sensors and multiple sensors in
> the same station is useful, as is the total elimination of mixing problems,
> water and shorting problems, etc.  The type T thermocouple differential
> circuit is a natural for use with the TMS.  The TMSs can easily handle a
> pair of thermocouples between each successive TMS in the electrolyte loop
> to provide the delta Ts (giving two thermocouples per TMS), and multiple
> thermistor probes in each TMS to give absolute temperature.  A bit of
> overkill maybe, but one of these days one of these experiments may work
> fairly reliably and then it's going to take overkill to prove it.
> 
> Hopefully our brainstorming has given Scott some ideas to try.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 22:40:00 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:38:43 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Pair Production Physics on Internet Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:47:32 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"sKkjF2.0.235.Yzolp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Here you go, Horace.

Look up, Pair Production, on Excite search engine, or www.kph.uni-mainz.de/   they provide a search engine also. 

I'm thinking that there is enough here to argue that the "light leptons" could be made from photons of as litte as 1.4 ev (about a micron wavelength)colliding with electrons, instead of Compton-Debye Scattering.

If this is the case, a positive "light" could pair up with an electron and the negative "light" could go into a proton/deuteron and form a neutral particle.

Potassium might be a "catalyst" that favors this type of pair production, or maybe something happens on the Pd surface after it gets "activated" by the alkali in the electrolyte.

The symbols used in this are either advanced math, or swearing.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 16:05:26 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:04:19 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:03:04 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: "Contact": quick review
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Gnorts -

I saw a sneak preview of the movie "Contact" last night, and I highly recommend it. I didn't read the book or have any preconceptions about it, so I was pleasantly surprised by the clever turns the story takes. Some of the movie's content reflects quite a bit of what the dialog here on Vortex gets focused on from time to time: what science is and why it is, how you can know when results are real and objective, etc. I think you'll find it relevant if you're a regular inhabitant of this list, and it's intellectual enough to perhaps lure you into some futher "thinking unto" those issues.

It's got pretty ok acting considering the rather slim opportunity for character development outside of Foster's character, good sfx, and an unusually satisfying and clever story considering the territory it covers.
Makes me wonder all the more what Sagan was up to, if he was really trying to say something here which he didn't want to come right out and say publicly or directly. There are three characters in the movie that seem to relate to or represent different parts of Sagan's own life at different periods in that regard, but I don't want to give anything away on that if you haven't read the story. See for yourself if you ree. Good show, IMO.

Alternate review: MIB - cute, funny, clever and very silly, but also very original, off-formula, and well paced, which I appreciate these days. Not a big deal, but entertaining. Smith and Jones are hot.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  5 23:11:34 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:10:55 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: dimensional analysis
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 06:07:35 GMT
Organization: Improving
References: <970705155604_1420280916 emout05.mail.aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"00zgV.0.Vc1.iRplp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:56:04 -0400 (EDT), FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:

>Yes I did.
>
>One way to express Huble's constant is  in 1/seconds
>
>c light speed is given in meters/ second
>
>Hc = acceleration = meters/sec sec
>
>force = mass x acceleration
>
>force = E/cc  H c
>
>field = G(dp/dt)/ccr
>
>field = G(E/cc H c/ ccr
>
>That's the basics of the analysis that I done.
>
>Frank Z
>
>
Frank,

This yields an energy density or pressure. How does that pertain to the mass of a photon? I.e. what is "r" in this case?


Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 00:57:24 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:54:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) References: <l03102800afe62d64bc29@[207.147.203.179]> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:51:39 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: final SMOT experiment
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Martin -

   >  1. Greg's "beta-2" and "beta-3" have a 90
   >  degree corner on the top and a 6-mm curve on
   >  the bottom of the end of the rail. Did you
   >  attempt that configuration?

No.

   >  2. Did you try a systematic adjustment of the
   >  height of the magnets above the ball (Greg's
   >  final tip in beta-3) ?

Yes.

Sharp 90 degree dropoff, huh? Hmm...

I just don't think there's anything in there. I'll wait for the kits to see if they work, but I'm not spending any more time on this.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 07:18:56 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 07:17:15 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 10:16:41 -0400 (EDT) To: Vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: dimensionsw
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Robin

This is getting to hard!!  I'm replying from memory without the complete analysis.
I will post my preprint on my web server.

I let you know when I have done this.

Frank Z

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 09:06:10 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:03:56 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:02:24 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: preprint - matter as a wave between two mirrors.
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 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/physrev.txt">physrev.txt at member s.aol.com</A> 

Frank Znidarsic

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 15:51:57 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:50:04 -0700 X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 18:44:28 +0000
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Cydonia in the Northern Martian hemisphere Resent-Message-ID: <"xSknR3.0.IN2.Q42mp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 05:41 PM 7/6/97 EDT, Chris wrote:
>
>Leaving Hoagland out of it - but not DiPietro and Molenaar - I must
>admit that I wish I could hope that the Mars orbiter (due in September,
>I believe) really would find the face was a face.  It's not so much
>that I'd get excited, more that I have a little list of faces I'd like
>to see if that happened.  Sheer schadenfreude, I admit cheerfully.
>
>Though I do have one microscopic scintilla of hope.  Careful study has
>shown that the true purpose of the universe is to ensure that facial
>egg tends toward a maximum.
>
>Chris
>

  Actually there are more interesting structures at Cydonia than the structure called the "face".  These fractal positive mesas, and Yuty-type ejecta craters, do deserve a second look.

   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)




X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 15:56:20 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:50:09 -0700 X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 18:47:45 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: Measuring temperature with quartz osc. freq.
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  There are many ways to measure temperature.   Have tried more than a score or so of different devices so far, and the quartz device may be the least useful IMHO for the kinds of systems discussed here because of its sensitivity to other factors not the least includes surface adsorption, etc.  

  Horace correctly points out the diff between accuracy and precision, but drift, non-linearities, and other aspects limit thermometry too.

  Also, there are devices available to accurately calibrate the devices.
We use an OMEGA ice point cell to correct that accuracy.

  Best wishes.
   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)

===========================================

At 04:28 AM 7/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
>In looking at the DIGIKEY catalog, it appears the change in frequency due
>to temperature is less than 1 x 10^-6 per deg. C, or one beat per million.
>This implies that to get 0.001 C accuracy would take at least 10^9 cycles.
>This implies the need to use fast crystals, say 10MHz. Getting a reading to
>0.001 C precision should then still take at least 100 seconds.  However, a
>0.01 C reading would only take 10 sec., which is tolerable.  Maybe the $10K
>quartz digital thermometers use a special type crystal?
>
>Anyway, the important thing with quartz thermometers is not the precision,
>but the absolute accuracy.  Haven't seen much discussion of this subject on
>vortex or s.p.f.  Not much in the way of common cheap products.  I wonder
>what the difficulty is and why it costs $10K to produce one?
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 15:56:23 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:55:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 18:52:08 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: Angel on Europa
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Dear colleagues:

  It is suggested that you both recheck the scales of the photos.
Perhaps at Cydonia (Mars) the resolution is much much greater than what you people are discussing here, which are the size of cities rather than 40 meter resolution as were obtained by the Mariner and Viking Orbiters. (SPIT, and other imaging improves the resolution slightly.

  Also, Cydonian imagings on Mars is fractal positive when imaged, whereas the rest of the surface is not.

  Am not certain that what you discuss
is positive on fractal imaging, is it? Anyone here check?

  Best regards.
    Mitchell

=================================================================

At 06:42 AM 6/23/97 -0800, you wrote:
>At 5:40 PM 6/22/97, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>[snip]
>>
>>This Europa photo has so much neat stuff in it though, it's mind boggling.
>>I can't believe Hoaglund hasn't come out and said all kinds of things about
>>it. Everywhere I look I see freeways, temples, cities, airports, faces,
>>angels, anglers, angles, etc., etc. It's got almost as much stuff in it as
>>the San Francisco pictures used for comparison. Seriously, there is a
>>perfectly formed rectangle near the lower center of the image,  and it
>>looks as 'good' as the stuff on Mars. In other words, it was disappointing
>>for two reasons. I think all that stuff there is natural, so first it looks
>>to me like it tends to degrade the possibility that that stuff on Mars is
>>anything, and second, it makes me wonder about ACC. That line he talks
>>about is like so many others in the photo.
>>
>[snip]
>>
>>- Rick Monteverde
>>Honolulu, HI
>
>All so true.  However, it just screems "tabloid," doesn't it?  I think
>public awareness of and interest in space exploration is a good thing.
>Maybe the Angel on Europa will help.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 12:23:22 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:20:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp@roshi.com> To: Jerry <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 12:18:57 -0700
Organization: ROSHI Corporation
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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On 06-Jul-97, Jerry wrote:
>Gnorts Vorts!

>Sad to see it is Carl Sagan who was chosen over Richard Hoagland for the 
>first naming of any Mars equipment.....yes, honor Sagan ALSO, but 
>Hoagland deserves first mention since he has been putting his foot in the 
>Mars door against all opposition....so he might be wrong on some counts, 
>yet he and his colleagues keep coming up with interesting anomalies that 
>stimulate all kinds of interest....is a letter writing campaign to NASA 
>in order here?

 Yeah, but, he's gonna haveta die or somethin', first ;^) -- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'  www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 12:02:32 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 13:51:35 -0700
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Gnorts Vorts!

Sad to see it is Carl Sagan who was chosen over Richard Hoagland for the first naming of any Mars equipment.....yes, honor Sagan ALSO, but Hoagland deserves first mention since he has been putting his foot in the Mars door against all opposition....so he might be wrong on some counts, yet he and his colleagues keep coming up with interesting anomalies that stimulate all kinds of interest....is a letter writing campaign to NASA in order here?
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 14:50:22 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 14:43:28 -0700 Date: 06 Jul 97 17:41:26 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Jerry,

 > Hoagland deserves first mention since he has been putting his foot  > in the Mars door against all opposition....so he might be wrong on  > some counts, yet he and his colleagues keep coming up with  > interesting anomalies that stimulate all kinds of interest....is a  > letter writing campaign to NASA in order here?

Leaving Hoagland out of it - but not DiPietro and Molenaar - I must admit that I wish I could hope that the Mars orbiter (due in September, I believe) really would find the face was a face.  It's not so much that I'd get excited, more that I have a little list of faces I'd like to see if that happened.  Sheer schadenfreude, I admit cheerfully.

Though I do have one microscopic scintilla of hope.  Careful study has shown that the true purpose of the universe is to ensure that facial egg tends toward a maximum.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 20:30:19 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:28:57 -0700 X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 23:27:02 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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At 08:21 PM 7/6/97 -0700, Barry wrote:
>Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>> 
>> At 02:44 AM 7/7/97 +0000, Barry Merriman wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> > Hoagland
>> >was sure that Pathfinder was going to be diverted to land
>> >in Cydonia around July 20th.
>> >
>> I'm a bit confused, Barry.  I thought it was Sedonia. Ain't that
>> in Arizonia.   :-)
>> 
>> Regards,   Frederick
>
>Well, I've only heard the word spoken, and Cydonia and 
>Sedonia are near homonymns----point is, I make no guarantees;


  Like it does to so much here, the peanut gallery insists on adding noise to the signal, attempting again to totally confuse every issue.

  Cydonia is located at 52 deg. North Latitude, 
      Longitude: 357 deg. 
      Elevation: -1 to -2 km. 

   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)




X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 16:48:15 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:46:18 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
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Subject: Pd-D2O incubation period
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Direct from Ed Storms:

>As for how long to wait, I generally
>give it a week if all indicators are looking good, i.e. the OCV and D/Pd
>stay high. Any sample requiring more time is not worth the effort.

I'm certainly tempted to go with this because it would allow me to run up to about 50 experiments (negative ones) over the coming year...  needless to say, if one of them turns positive we'll stay on it as long as it is interesting.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 17:53:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:51:52 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:17:15 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Measuring temperature with quartz osc. freq.
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At 10:47 AM 7/6/97, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>  There are many ways to measure temperature.   Have tried
>more than a score or so of different devices so far, and the
>quartz device may be the least useful IMHO for the kinds of
>systems discussed here because of its sensitivity to other
>factors not the least includes surface adsorption, etc.
[snip]

Scott is encapsulating his probes in a glass envelope, so that shouldn't be a problem.


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 17:54:38 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:51:46 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:24:10 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Angel on Europa
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At 10:52 AM 7/6/97, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>Dear colleagues:
>
>  It is suggested that you both recheck the scales of the photos.
>Perhaps at Cydonia (Mars) the resolution is much much greater than
>what you people are discussing here, which are the size of cities
>rather than 40 meter resolution as were obtained by the
>Mariner and Viking Orbiters. (SPIT, and other imaging
>improves the resolution slightly.
>
>  Also, Cydonian imagings on Mars is fractal
>positive when imaged, whereas the rest of the surface is not.
>
>  Am not certain that what you discuss
>is positive on fractal imaging, is it? Anyone here check?
>
>  Best regards.
>    Mitchell
>


Mitchell,

It's just cute, and a curiosity.  Here's a better copy in JPG.  Hope it makes it through vortex.



Attachment Converted: C:\INTERNET\EUDORA\ANGELS.JPG Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.970706193358.5397C november>

On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Horace Heffner wrote: <snip>
> >  It is suggested that you both recheck the scales of the photos.
> >Perhaps at Cydonia (Mars) the resolution is much much greater than
> >what you people are discussing here, which are the size of cities
> >rather than 40 meter resolution as were obtained by the
> >Mariner and Viking Orbiters. (SPIT, and other imaging
> >improves the resolution slightly.
> >
> >  Also, Cydonian imagings on Mars is fractal
> >positive when imaged, whereas the rest of the surface is not.
> >    Mitchell
> 
> It's just cute, and a curiosity.  Here's a better copy in JPG.  Hope it
> makes it through vortex.
> 
> 
..so, the giant europian worms are only 2-5 feet in diameter.. whoo, thank goodness (for a minute there)... ah, let's go fishing!!




se
------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX Content-Type: IMAGE/JPEG; NAME="angels.jpg"; X-MAC-TYPE=4A504547; X-MAC-CREATOR=474B4F4E Content-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.970706193358.5397D@november> Content-Description: 

ÿØÿàX-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 19:19:43 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry@math.ucla.edu
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 19:18:13 -0700
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu> Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Compelling need ....for nuclear remediation References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970705231507.26153B-100000 college> Resent-Message-ID: <"zw3483.0.j86.Z85mp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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John Schnurer wrote:

>         Wm A. Barker's work modifying the Coulomb barrier is simple,
> compared to IC manufacutre, is a dry process, non chemical, and works.
> The fit for the compelling need exists, it needs only to be applied.
> 
>         I personally have witnessed replication of the work.  
> The process performs as claimed in patent.
> 
>                                                 JHS
> 

Whats the best way to learn about Barkers process, and replications of it? Is Barker still alive?


-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 19:46:05 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry@math.ucla.edu
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 19:44:38 -0700
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu> Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
References: <970706101640_816981997 emout17.mail.aol.com> <33C00557.184D@keelynet.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"EkcDB2.0.1j6.KX5mp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Jerry wrote:
> 
> Gnorts Vorts!
> 
> Sad to see it is Carl Sagan who was chosen over Richard 
> Hoagland for the first naming of any Mars equipment.......is a 
> letter writing campaign to NASA in order here?

But there was really no need to consider honoring Hoagland with the July 4th pathfinder landing---Hoagland himself said that landing was never going to occur. Instead, based on Hoagland's "sacred hyperdimensional geometry" and his informants inside the portion of NASA battling the global conspiracy, Hoagland was sure that Pathfinder was going to be diverted to land in Cydonia around July 20th.

I think the credit and respect due to Hoagland is commensurate with the accuracy of his theories, which is evident from the above.


By the way, I was at PlanetFest `97 in Pasadena (where, thankfully, Hoagland's name never came up in the presentations, though there were a handful of Jokes about faces). One presenter discussing the moons of Jupiter showed a photo of one of them (Io?) that had a face on it every bit as "compelling" as Hoagland's mars face. Personally, I think Hoagland is the dictionary definition of a wilde-eyed conspiracy theorist. He does deserve something named after him, but I think it should be a psychological disorder :-).




-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 19:58:39 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 22:53:47 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu> Subject: Re: Compelling need ....for nuclear remediation Resent-Message-ID: <"tk5N12.0.fz6.zi5mp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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	Barker was alive last I heard, but ill health.  Brother dong well.  I am the only one I know of who replicated and reported.

	See the patent.

				JHS

On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Barry Merriman wrote:

> John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> >         Wm A. Barker's work modifying the Coulomb barrier is simple,
> > compared to IC manufacutre, is a dry process, non chemical, and works.
> > The fit for the compelling need exists, it needs only to be applied.
> > 
> >         I personally have witnessed replication of the work.  
> > The process performs as claimed in patent.
> > 
> >                                                 JHS
> > 
> 
> Whats the best way to learn about Barkers process, and 
> replications of it? Is Barker still alive?
> 
> 
> -- 
> Barry Merriman
> Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
> Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
> email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry
> 
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 20:12:13 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:10:48 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 03:10:08 +0000
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At 02:44 AM 7/7/97 +0000, Barry Merriman wrote:

>
>But there was really no need to consider honoring Hoagland
>with the July 4th pathfinder landing---Hoagland himself said that
>landing was never going to occur. Instead, based on Hoagland's
>"sacred hyperdimensional geometry" and his informants inside
>the portion of NASA battling the global conspiracy, Hoagland 
>was sure that Pathfinder was going to be diverted to land 
>in Cydonia around July 20th.
>
I'm a bit confused, Barry.  I thought it was Sedonia. Ain't that in Arizonia.   :-)

Regards,   Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 17:07:39 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:05:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:26:26 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: final SMOT experiment
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Chris -

  > May I quote your message in my coming article for IE?

If you want bad grammer showing up in your articles, sure, be my guest.

Your next and probably final SMOT try sounds like a good test too. However, there is one thing that Martin brought up that bothers me a little about our tests. I went to Greg's page and saw the beta3 plan. Now it only makes good sense to duplicate that plan exactly with the n-gauge track, etc. The problem is, it seems the design keeps changing, and the previous ones are deprecated somehow, 'the rollaways are to weak to duplicate easily', or something like that. So the ramp I just made is off-spec enough to be brought into question as a valid replication, I suppose. However, it remains that I feel that my recent ramp, as well as yours, remain faithful enough to the basic principle to have been able to show us a hint of something anomalous. To butcher a metaphor, our wings may not have precisely the same foil Greg uses to fly, but they sure aren't flat. And as far as Greg claiming that a lower rollaway is evidence of OU, could you direct me to that quote if you can? That *would* be bad. That's like saying that siphon hoses are over unity.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 20:22:51 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry@math.ucla.edu
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 20:21:31 -0700
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu> Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
> 
> At 02:44 AM 7/7/97 +0000, Barry Merriman wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hoagland
> >was sure that Pathfinder was going to be diverted to land
> >in Cydonia around July 20th.
> >
> I'm a bit confused, Barry.  I thought it was Sedonia. Ain't that
> in Arizonia.   :-)
> 
> Regards,   Frederick

Well, I've only heard the word spoken, and Cydonia and Sedonia are near homonymns----point is, I make no guarantees; for all I know, Hoagland was predicting Pathfinder was going to land in Arizona...that seems about as likely as the other things Hoagland was outlining.


Hoagland will get his due when Global Surveyor gets to mars. I'm willing to take bets with 10:1 odds against against Hoagland, if anyone is interested...(I think the odds are more like 10,000 : 1 against, but its no fun to bet $100 vs 1 cent....)

-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 05:37:29 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 07:30:24 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Cydonia on Earth
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(Off topic but I decided to post to vortex taking account previous related postings)

Mitchell Swartz wrote:

Cydonia is located at 52 deg. North Latitude, 
      Longitude: 357 deg. 
      Elevation: -1 to -2 km. 

Hi Mitchell,

There is an inconstancy with my coordinates that I found about Cydonia.
On web page 
"http://barsoom.msss.com/education/facepage/face_discussion.html"

D&M Pyramid" is located at 40.868 degrees North Latitude. Not at 52 deg.

Dr. Bruce Cornet was actually located the similar exact place in Earth with the same Artifacts! You will surprised  when learned where he pointed the Cydonia on Earth (the longitude). Very systematic and detailed work. Takes time to understand what he is claiming exactly.
Proofs seems be solid but the claim is very very very incredible!

(prabably Horace will enjoy most)

http://www.orionworks.com/bcornet/

Regards,

Hamdi Ucar

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  6 21:38:20 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:37:00 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:36:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Martin Sevior <msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca> To: Tom Miller <tom@gorge.net>
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: July 4!
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On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Tom Miller wrote:

> Reading the kind thoughts from Dr. Glueck, and watching fireworks
> displays has made me contemplative, and not a little morose.
>

[snip]

>
> Consider how they must feel, that vst number who had earlier fled the
> opression on the mainland, only to find they must now re-enter the
> dragon.
>
> If anyone is reading this in China--please don't put your hopes in
> "democracy." Democracy very precisely means: "mob rule."  What you, and
> everybody else
> in the world needs is liberty. Everybody desperately needs freedom from
> opression and corruption.  Democracy is only a means of maintaining
> liberty,
> once it attained.  I wish I could say that you can expect us, the free
> world,
> to help you. I cannot speak to Europe, but America is so ridden with
> corruption and hedonism that we are unlikely to be of any help.
>
> The fireworks are, or should be, areminder that the price of liberty is
> not
> just "eternal vigilance."  The price of liberty is paid in the blood of
> those willing to lay down their own life, so that others might be free.
>

Why should Americans, Europeans or anybody else lay down their lives for the people of Hong Kong? If they really wanted to be free of Communism they've had a lot time to resist. If they'd raised their income tax to 20% (from 15%) to support the purchase of modern arms and volenteered on-mass for armed service they could have put themselves in a much stronger bargaining position.

Surely the people of Hong Kong should be the first to show they're willing to shed blood before the rest of the world feels guilty.

> People whohave never seen war, and who are only willing to sacrifice for
> a
> new BMW, will never understand.
>

The vast majority of Hong Kongers won't even do that.

Martin Sevior


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 04:53:36 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 04:50:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 07:47:51 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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  Actually Horace, you can tell it is not terrestrial because we use E, and W longitude which is generally not used to describe the martian surface.

   Mitchell


At 12:00 AM 7/7/97 -0800, you wrote:
>At 3:27 PM 7/6/97, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>[snip]
>>
>>  Like it does to so much here, the peanut gallery insists on
>>adding noise to the signal, attempting again to totally
>>confuse every issue.
>>
>>  Cydonia is located at 52 deg. North Latitude,
>>      Longitude: 357 deg.
>>      Elevation: -1 to -2 km.
>>
>>   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)
>
>
>Sounds more like an oil well in the North Sea - just off Harwich.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 01:01:51 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:56:41 -0700 Date: 07 Jul 97 03:55:32 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Barry,

 > I think the credit and respect due to Hoagland is commensurate  > with the accuracy of his theories, which is evident from the  > above.

Yes, I agree with that.  Now, will you agree that Hoagland does deserve *some* credit for being the first to suggest that Europa might have a liquid ocean under the ice?  I think he also predicted the spot on Uranus (or was it Neptune?).  I note that if someone goes to the bad the credit for his previous good work tends to get re-assigned or forgotten.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 01:04:44 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:01:33 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:00:58 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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At 3:27 PM 7/6/97, Mitchell Swartz wrote: [snip]
>
>  Like it does to so much here, the peanut gallery insists on
>adding noise to the signal, attempting again to totally
>confuse every issue.
>
>  Cydonia is located at 52 deg. North Latitude,
>      Longitude: 357 deg.
>      Elevation: -1 to -2 km.
>
>   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)


Sounds more like an oil well in the North Sea - just off Harwich.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 01:09:43 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:06:39 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:01:02 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Question on radioisotope power Cc: vortex-L@eskimo.com
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At 6:26 PM 4/26/97, Tim D Vaughan wrote:
>Here is a question for you physicists:
>
>If you could convert all of the kinetic energy of the particles emitted
>by
>radium to high grade energy such as electricity, how much pure
>radium would you need to get a rate of 1000 watts ?
>
>CRC Handbook lists MeV of alpha particles and conversion factors.
>Please show your calculations.
>
>Thank You
>
>Tim Vaughan
>( tv juno.com )

Assuming purified Ra226 with half life of 1599 y and energy of 4.870 MeV.
A mole of Ra (or anything) contains Avogadro's no. of atoms, or 6.022x10^23 atoms. A mole of Ra weighs 226.02 g.

When considering an interval less than 1% of the half-life we can handily use the Rutherford-Soddy law of radioactive decay, which says if we have N atoms to begin with:

   No. decays = D = 0.69x(timeinterval/half-life)xN

This is just an approximation based of the slope of the logarithmic decay curve at time zero.

One year has 365.25 days/year x 24 hours/day x 60 min/hr x 60 sec/min = 3.156x10^7 seconds.  A radium half life thus has 3.156x10^7 seconds x 1599 = 5.05x10^10 sec.

A mole of radium is therefore consumed at the rate of

   Dm = 0.69(1 sec/5.05x10^10 sec)6.022x10^23 atoms/sec per mole
   Dm = 8.23x10^12 dps/mole

The decays per second (dps) per gram is thus:

   Dg = (8.23x10^12 dps/mole)/(226.02 g/mole) = 3.64x10^10 dps/g.

However, 1 eV = 1.602x10^-19 J, so we get a power density P:

   P = Dg(1.602x10^-19 J/eV)(4.87x10^6 eV/decay)
   P = 2.787x10^-2 (J/s)/g = 0.02787 W/g.

So, to get 1000 W we need a mass m:

   m = (1000 W)/(0.02787 W/g.) = 35.88 kG.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 05:07:18 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:05:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 08:01:58 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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  Chris, 

   A portion of some the better material on this appears in Quest journal in the UK.  We are unable to get this here.  Do you get it?  It is not available in the Northeast US.

  Best wishes.

   Mitchell


====================================================

At 05:38 AM 7/7/97 EDT, you wrote:
>
>But I think that Hoagland has hijacked the Cydonia stuff, and I gather
>that DiPietro and Molenaar (who got prizes for the pixel-interleaving
>image enhancement techniques they devised for Cydonia) don't thank him
>for doing that.
>
>The fractal analysis of Cydonia, in comparison to other locations, is
>apparently quite interesting too (and I think that analysis included the
>face).  ...
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 02:44:56 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: 07 Jul 97 05:38:39 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Barry,

 > Hoagland will get his due when Global Surveyor gets to mars. I'm  > willing to take bets with 10:1 odds against against Hoagland, if  > anyone is interested...(I think the odds are more like 10,000 : 1  > against, but its no fun to bet $100 vs 1 cent....)

But I think that Hoagland has hijacked the Cydonia stuff, and I gather that DiPietro and Molenaar (who got prizes for the pixel-interleaving image enhancement techniques they devised for Cydonia) don't thank him for doing that.

The fractal analysis of Cydonia, in comparison to other locations, is apparently quite interesting too (and I think that analysis included the face).  The bit I took most exception to was the *apparently* interesting relationships (pi, e, and the rest) which have been found in the region.  The argument was raised that in a random region these same relationships were not seen, but that seems to me to be false logic. 
Perhaps *other* mathematical relationships could be found in random locations; it all reminds me of Fred Hoyle's remark about people who find a golf-ball landing on a specific spot and *then* calculate the odds against it happening.

On the other hand, and knowing nothing about your claim for "an equally compelling 'face'," I would point out that absurdity can be found on both sides of these discussions.  For example, it has been argued that the existence of mountain *profiles* which resemble faces is proof that the 3-D Cydonia face is nothing unusual!

As for a bet, two things puzzle me (as a non-gambler).  The first is that it seems to me difficult to assess the odds when confronted with a single event without any clear baseline of previous results; and the other is that it seems to me quite bizarre that anyone should not want the face to be a real face.  Sure, I'd be astonished if it were real, but I would be hugely delighted too.

Can there really be people who wouldn't be delighted?  If there are any like that on this list, could they please explain their thought processes?  I'd very much like to understand.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 03:09:36 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 03:05:25 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Scattering, De Broglie Waves and Pair Production.
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:05:09 +0000
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To Vortex:

The classical Thomson-Compton-Debye scattering cross section puts the scattering cross section for photon-electron scattering at about: 8(pi)/3 * [ke^2/(Mo*c^2)]^2 = 6.6E-29 cm^2. k = 1/(4(pi)eo).
For a proton the scattering cross section is some 6 orders of magnitude less.With the momentum of the photons = E/c a spread of 6 orders of magnitude between the momentum of a 1 ev photon and a 1 Mev photon compared to the momentum of a thermal electron doesn't amount to much.

Schrodinger invoked the De Broglie wavelength h/Mv for the scattering electron recoil phenomenon and treated the system as interacting waves.

Thus assuming occasional "pair" production from photon-electron collisions of a few ev, or less, with about the same cross section, and since the momentum "de Broglie wavelength" of the electrons at 300 to 400 deg K or so is about the same wavelength as the photons, might there be a form of "light lepton" pair production or "resonance condition" going on that would produce a light neutral particle from a bound state of an negative electron and a positive "light lepton", ie., an "electrino" that could catalyze the "CF" type reactions?

Regards,     Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 03:31:02 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 03:28:51 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:28:14 +0000
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At 09:38 AM 7/7/97 +0000, Chris wrote:
>Barry,
>
>On the other hand, and knowing nothing about your claim for "an equally
>compelling 'face'," I would point out that absurdity can be found on
>both sides of these discussions.  For example, it has been argued that
>the existence of mountain *profiles* which resemble faces is proof that
>the 3-D Cydonia face is nothing unusual!

On the mountain chain to the east of here, there is a formation that resembles a pyramid, and south of that, a giant "Sleeping Indian" that are landmarks that date to antiquity. Very useful for "navigation" prior to GPS.  :-)
>
>Can there really be people who wouldn't be delighted?  If there are any
>like that on this list, could they please explain their thought
>processes?  I'd very much like to understand.

Me, and others who don't want to feel like the "primatives" felt when the sails of Columbus' ships loomed up over the horizon.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick


>
>Chris
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 08:12:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:08:46 -0700 X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 11:06:56 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: Cydonia on Earth
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  Thank you, Hamdi.  that was 41, as you correctly pointed out.

    Mitchell

At 07:30 AM 7/7/97 +0400, you wrote:
>(Off topic but I decided to post to vortex taking account previous
>related postings)
>
>Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
>Cydonia is located at 52 deg. North Latitude, 
>      Longitude: 357 deg. 
>      Elevation: -1 to -2 km. 
>
>Hi Mitchell,
>
>There is an inconstancy with my coordinates that I found about Cydonia.
>On web page 
>"http://barsoom.msss.com/education/facepage/face_discussion.html"
>
>D&M Pyramid" is located at 40.868 degrees North Latitude. Not at 52 deg.
>
>Dr. Bruce Cornet was actually located the similar exact place in Earth
>with the same Artifacts! You will surprised  when learned where he
>pointed the Cydonia on Earth (the longitude). Very systematic and
>detailed work. Takes time to understand what he is claiming exactly.
>Proofs seems be solid but the claim is very very very incredible!
>
>(prabably Horace will enjoy most)
>
>http://www.orionworks.com/bcornet/
>
>Regards,
>
>Hamdi Ucar
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 06:23:48 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 06:18:21 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:17:39 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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At 11:47 PM 7/6/97, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>  Actually Horace, you can tell it is not terrestrial
>because we use E, and W longitude which is generally
>not used to describe the martian surface.
>
>   Mitchell
>
>


OK, but it could be the coordinates of lunar base 57.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 09:39:09 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: 07 Jul 97 12:33:50 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Mitchell,

 > A portion of some the better material on this appears in Quest  > journal in the UK.  We are unable to get this here.  Do you get  > it?  It is not available in the Northeast US.

I'm afraid I don't know this publication.  If you have any more info on it, I'd be pleased to track it down and see what I can find.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 10:30:19 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:21:14 -0700 Sender: barry@math.ucla.edu
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 10:21:04 -0700
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu> Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
References: <970707075531_100433.1541_BHG58-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"8vFcF2.0.1U5.9MImp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Chris Tinsley wrote:
> 
> Barry,
> 
>  > I think the credit and respect due to Hoagland is commensurate
>  > with the accuracy of his theories,

> will you agree that Hoagland does deserve
> *some* credit for being the first to suggest that Europa might have
> a liquid ocean under the ice? 

At least from his resume, Hoagland appears to have been very good at what he used to do, which is basically science journalism.
As for the Europa thing, I'm a bit skeptical. Yes, I've seen Hoagland claim credit, and seen other attribute credit, but I've not read the actual article in question. My skeptical question would be: did Hoagland merely speculate that Europa had an ocean---which would not be that praiseworthy---or did he contruct a compelling argument based planetary geophysical data? The latter would be worthy of scientific attribution, the former merely prescient science fiction.

As for the face---yes, I'd love it to be "real". I just really doubt it, since there is no natural law against landforms looking like faces, and indeed there are many examples (which of course says something important about our visual system).


-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

X-From_: freenrg-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 10:55:05 1997 Return-Path: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com X-Intended-For: <knuke@aa.net>
Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:54:52 -0700 From: "Fred Epps" <fepps halcyon.com>
To: "Free Energy" <freenrg-l eskimo.com>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: Re: Question on radioisotope power Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:53:06 -0700
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Hi Tim and all,

Tim said: 
> 35 kg for 1000 watts from radium.
> Wow that is a bunch of radium !
> 
> So if TH Moray produced 5000 watts, no way could he just be
> using alpha particle kinetic energy.   His whole machine
> didn't even weigh nearly that much !
 
I too thank you, Horace. You calculations confirmed my long-time gut feeling that radium was not the energy source in the Moray, Hendershot, Hubbard or Coler devices.  It's clear that at least the Moray and Hubbard devices included radium but it certainly had another purpose.

Speculative possibilities include:
Ionization of spaces within the machine to tap some sort of ambient energy Changes of conductivity (as "Steve" reported on the Solaris website) Turning virtual particles into real ones (see "Is The Vacuum Really Empty" by Walter Greiner and Joseph Hamilton, American Scientist,
     V. 68, p. 154 for their experiments on generating particle pairs near superheavy ions)

Its also possible they put radium in there because it was the "cool thing" of the time and they thought it might do something! 

Fred 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 11:45:00 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: 07 Jul 97 14:36:35 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Pd-D2O incubation period
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To: Vortex

Ed Storms advised Scott Little:

>As for how long to wait, I generally
>give it a week if all indicators are looking good, i.e. the OCV and D/Pd
>stay high. Any sample requiring more time is not worth the effort.

Scott writes:

     I'm certainly tempted to go with this because it would allow me to
     run up to about 50 experiments (negative ones) over the coming year...

Scott: does this mean you now intend to measure the OCV (open circuit voltage) and the D/Pd ratio? If so, that's commendable. I hope you measure excess volume and the other parameters Storms recommends.

If you are not measuring OCV and loading, then I must ask: go with what?
Unless you measure loading, the only way to know if the sample is highly loaded is to wait a long time and see if it produces CF heat. Judging by the test runs by Tinsley and you, the Ragland technique does not significantly improve loading. It probably does not hurt, but it does not help as much as we had hoped. Therefore you should wait for the maximum period recommended by Pons and Fleischmann and others: about a month. This is the "shot in the dark" technique. If you run 50 cathodes you might get lucky and find one or two that work.

- Jed

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 11:44:13 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:39:46 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Question on radioisotope power Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:39:33 +0000
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At 05:53 PM 7/7/97 +0000, Fred Epps wrote:
>
>Hi Tim and all,
>
>Tim said: 
>> 35 kg for 1000 watts from radium.
>> Wow that is a bunch of radium !

FWIW. Horace did that calculation right down to the nitty-gritty.
The "Curie" (3.7E10 disintegrations/second) is based on the decay rate of a gram of radium. Thus at about 5 Mev/disintegration; 5.0E6*1.6E-19*3.7E10/second <=> 0.0285 watts/gram or 35 kg/kw.

Even the "Hot" radioisotopes like Polonium 210 or Plutonium 238 are only good for a few watts/gram. These are the radioisotopes of choice for the isotope powered space vehicles like the Pioneer and Voyager and the Russian "Topaz" space powerplants (for thermoelectric or thermionic conversion).
>> 
>> So if TH Moray produced 5000 watts, no way could he just be
>> using alpha particle kinetic energy.   His whole machine
>> didn't even weigh nearly that much !
> 
>I too thank you, Horace. You calculations confirmed my long-time gut
>feeling that radium was not the energy source in the Moray, Hendershot,
>Hubbard or Coler devices.  It's clear that at least the Moray and Hubbard
>devices included radium but it certainly had another purpose.
>
>Speculative possibilities include:
>Ionization of spaces within the machine to tap some sort of ambient energy
>Changes of conductivity (as "Steve" reported on the Solaris website) 
>Turning virtual particles into real ones (see "Is The Vacuum Really Empty" 
>by Walter Greiner and Joseph Hamilton, American Scientist,
>     V. 68, p. 154 for their experiments on generating particle pairs near
>superheavy ions)
>
>Its also possible they put radium in there because it was the "cool thing"
>of the time and they thought it might do something! 

Cool?   :-)

Regards, Frederick
>
>Fred 
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 12:19:32 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:14:08 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:13:27 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: zero drift problem
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At 11:23 AM 7/7/97, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: [snip]
>
>I gained considerable experience with differential temperature measurement
>using thermocouples during our CF experiments in 1996.  Thermocouples are
>no panecea.  They appear to be quite stable, and although I don't know the
>achievable reproducibility, I doubt if 0.001 C is possible.  It is way
>beyond what the references I consulted claimed possible (typically 0.1 C).
>In practice, because the signal level is low, about 40 microvolt/C,
>electronic noise and drift seemed to set the limit in our cases.  We did
>not get a lockin amplifier, though.  We had to live with a few hundreths of
>C drift, and we checked the delta-T zero offset frequently.
>
[snip]
>
>Michael J. Schaffer


Did you try a configuration like:

 +            Cu
   o---------------------
                         \
                          o  T1  (use for CF cell output)
                         /
                        |
  V=a(T1-T2)            |  Constantan wire
                        |
                        |
                        |
                         \
                          o  T2  (normally ambient reference,
                         /          but used for CF cell input)
   o---------------------
 -            Cu


where reproducibility should be better than 1 percent? At a delta T of 1 deg. C you only are guaranteed accurate to better than 0.01 C but at delta T of 0.1 deg. C you should achieve better than 0.001 deg. C accurcy.

Maybe one of those high impedence chopper stabilized op-amps would work nicely.  Then you get good liniearity, and the resistance of the leads makes no diffference to the sensed voltage. Good shielding is important though.

Maybe infrared sensors are the way to go. They can measure down to 0.0001 C differentials.  Might also be useful for calibrating the above probe pair, especially near the zero point.  The OMEGA catalog has a wide variety.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 11:30:44 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:22:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer@gav.gat.com
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:23:26 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: zero drift problem
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I can attest from experience that thermistors are affected by moisture.  I have only limited experience with them, so I can't give you much more guidance.

I gained considerable experience with differential temperature measurement using thermocouples during our CF experiments in 1996.  Thermocouples are no panecea.  They appear to be quite stable, and although I don't know the achievable reproducibility, I doubt if 0.001 C is possible.  It is way beyond what the references I consulted claimed possible (typically 0.1 C).
In practice, because the signal level is low, about 40 microvolt/C, electronic noise and drift seemed to set the limit in our cases.  We did not get a lockin amplifier, though.  We had to live with a few hundreths of C drift, and we checked the delta-T zero offset frequently.

My own preference is to buy both thermistors and thermocouples factory-sheathed in long, small-diameter stainless steel tubes that have a thick factory-applied coating of PTFE.  The PTFE isolates the probe electrically from the electrolyte and allows one to connect the sheath to the measuring circuit ground, thereby achieving good shielding of the whole system.  However, Little's glass tubes should serve the same purpose as my PTFE.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 12:49:12 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:38:39 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com> From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Pd-D2O incubation period
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Scott,

Before totaly shutting down you cells after an experiment you might consider trying to look for heat after death for a few hours.  If there is any CF effect that lasts after power is off, then it should be much more visible due to not sitting on top of the possibly much larger power input curve.  The effect would then be an absolute value and not the result of differencing noisy values.  However, if found, it might be difficult to distinguish from (and may be) the Pd cigarette lighter effect, and thus bogus.

Another (not new) thought about the triode: it doesnt make much sense to me to use lateral current through a solid cathode.  Too low current density.
It just seems like a thin film or foil or very thin wire is the only sensible way to go.  However, it might be interresting to zap a big current jolt from a capacitor though the cathode before shutting down the experiment and then look for heat after death.

Just a bit more grist for the mill.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 14:39:24 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:36:14 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:35:27 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Morray device dated
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"cool thing"
of the time and they thought it might do something! 
........................................................
Yes, like the statement that the device could pick up radio transmissions from the other side of the world.  Today in the information age such communication is not uncommon and off beat inventors no longer make the claim for good radio reception..

Frank Znidarsic

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 18:39:10 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:37:41 -0700 X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 21:35:49 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
References: <19970707102812.AAA7303 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"zUct8.0.zv6.adPmp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 06:26 PM 7/7/97 -0700, you wrote:

>I believe that most of the objections to Martian monuments are the same as
>the objections to CF being real.  

  Since cold fusion is real, your comments lend considerable reason to revisit those mesas and nearby structures.

   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 14:41:54 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:39:10 -0700 Date: 07 Jul 97 17:36:21 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Pd-D2O incubation period
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Horace,

 > It just seems like a thin film or foil or very thin wire is the  > only sensible way to go.

The Italian approach, yes.  Get the deuterons to migrate along a wire.

Chris



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 15:36:13 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:28:06 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Pd-D2O incubation period
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At 14:36 7/7/97 EDT, Jed wrote:

>If you are not measuring OCV and loading, then I must ask: go with what?
>Unless you measure loading, the only way to know if the sample is highly
>loaded is to wait a long time and see if it produces CF heat.

Good points, Jed.  Thinking is underway....


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 15:39:23 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:31:28 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little <little@eden.com>
Subject: Re: zero drift problem
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At 11:23 7/7/97 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:

>I gained considerable experience with differential temperature measurement
>using thermocouples during our CF experiments in 1996.  Thermocouples are
>no panecea.  They appear to be quite stable, and although I don't know the
>achievable reproducibility, I doubt if 0.001 C is possible.

Mike I appreciate all yr comments.  On this point, however, I spoke to Dave Sabean of BetaTherm today and he tells me that their thermistors have short-term repeatability below 0.001C and they are typically the sensor of choice for very high performance temp-stabilized water baths which claim as much as 0.001C stability.

>My own preference is to buy both thermistors and thermocouples
>factory-sheathed....

This could be a real important point.  Thanks.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 16:52:53 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Intended-For: knuke@aa.net
Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:47:51 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:46:31 -0500 (CDT) From: John Fields <starship fc.net>
Subject: Re: zero drift problem
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Scott Little wrote:

> Mike I appreciate all yr comments.  On this point, however, I spoke to Dave
> Sabean of BetaTherm today and he tells me that their thermistors have
> short-term repeatability below 0.001C and they are typically the sensor of
> choice for very high performance temp-stabilized water baths which claim as
> much as 0.001C stability.
---------------------------
Scott,

If the thermistors and their assemblies are identical it might be instructive to interchange them.  That is, use the input probe to sample the output temperature and vice versa.

That way, if the problem is due to one of the thermistors, the sense of the error should follow the faulty thermistor.

If it does not, then at least the thermistors will have been exonerated.


BTW, have you considered the differences in self-heating effects caused by operating the thermistors at different temperatures?

Since they're operating at different points on the RT curve, the slope of the curve at the operating temperature will be different for each thermistor and could cause the measured resistance(s) to include an unexpected I^2 R error term.

John Fields
-----------  

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 17:49:29 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:47:38 -0700 Sender: barry@math.ucla.edu
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 17:47:31 -0700
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu> Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: final SMOT experiment
References: <970707201632_100433.1541_BHG56-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Ihkvk2.0.pt4.fuOmp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Chris Tinsley wrote:
> 

> Greg has seemed to move from talking
> about roll-arounds to arguing that even a below-entry level rollaway
> is proof of o-u.  This bothers me, to put it mildly.
> 
> Chris

Yes, and whatever happened to Greg's closed loop SMOT? I think it must be over 6 weeks since he "achieved" that, yet we heard little more about it since then. Strikes me as bizarre for him to dink around with roll-aways when he already can construct closed loop devices.

-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 18:28:29 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:26:39 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:26:32 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:

> At 09:38 AM 7/7/97 +0000, Chris wrote:
> >
> >Can there really be people who wouldn't be delighted?  If there are any
> >like that on this list, could they please explain their thought
> >processes?  I'd very much like to understand.
> 
> Me, and others who don't want to feel like the "primatives" felt
> when the sails of Columbus' ships loomed up over the horizon.  :-)

When I read your question, this springs to mind:

  It is inconceivable that intelligent beings built monuments on
  mars!  We've been looking at the surface for decades, and if 
  such things really existed, we would have found them ages ago.
  And if non-earth intelligence exists, why isn't it in contact
  with us right now?

I believe that most of the objections to Martian monuments are the same as the objections to CF being real.  Drasin's ZEN AND THE ART OF DEBUNKERY is an excellent structure for looking at the non-believer side of these debates.  Just change "UFO" or "alien" in the article to "martian monuments".  There's a copy on my site, http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/pathskep.html

.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117  billb eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 19:52:44 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:49:59 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: final SMOT experiment
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:35:42 +0000
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At 12:47 AM 7/8/97 +0000, Barry Merriman wrote:
>Chris Tinsley wrote:
>> 
>
>> Greg has seemed to move from talking
>> about roll-arounds to arguing that even a below-entry level rollaway
>> is proof of o-u.  This bothers me, to put it mildly.
>> 
>> Chris
>
>Yes, and whatever happened to Greg's closed loop SMOT? I think
>it must be over 6 weeks since he "achieved" that, yet we heard
>little more about it since then. Strikes me as bizarre for him
>to dink around with roll-aways when he already can construct closed loop
>devices.
>
 
Seems to be a bit of a let-down after so many have been manipulating their balls with such purpose, intensity, and anticipation of getting a little something for nothing. Very sad. Out in the West,even recently, men have been hung for less.   

Regards,     Frederick

>Barry Merriman
>Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
>Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
>email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 19:29:53 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:27:47 -0700 From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Pd-D2O incubation period
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 02:27:23 GMT
Organization: Improving
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Scott,

If you are interested in speeding up the process by a factor of 10 or so, then you might like to think about the following. You apparently only have one good calorimeter. This restricts you to one experiment at a time. However very rough static calorimetry using thermos flasks might allow you to *pretest* many cathodes concurrently. Then you could pick the ones that seems to give good results, for a proper run in your good calorimeter. This would also provide a means of preloading many cathodes concurrently, thus reducing the loading time.


Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 14:05:09 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:02:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:59:47 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Chris -

   >  But even if they were clearly artificial, which they
   >  might be after Global Surveyor, then it's a clear
   >  breach of the Razor to argue that they were made by
   >  ETs rather than by humans.

Do you also detect multiplied entities if we resolve that one by arguing that at least one race of ET *is/was* "human"?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 20:04:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:02:55 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:02:14 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: zero drift problem
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At 6:46 PM 7/7/97, John Fields wrote:
[snip]
>
>BTW, have you considered the differences in self-heating effects
>caused by operating the thermistors at different temperatures?
>
>Since they're operating at different points on the RT curve, the slope
>of the curve at the operating temperature will be different for each
>thermistor and could cause the measured resistance(s) to include an
>unexpected I^2 R error term.
>
>John Fields
>-----------

It is what you point out, the "hysteresis" due to self heating effects, especially in dynamic conditions, even with a single probe, that led me to suggest sample and hold techniques, which eliminate that problem.  Also, multiple thermistors distributed across the probe help identify "bad" thermistors, as well as noise and poor mixing.

A person with one watch always knows what time it is. A person with two watches is never exactly sure.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 22:06:04 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:01:51 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:01:42 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: zero drift problem
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At 06:46 PM 7/7/97 -0500, John Fields wrote:

>If the thermistors and their assemblies are identical it might be 
>instructive to interchange them.  That is, use the input probe to 
>sample the output temperature and vice versa.

Good suggestion, John...and welcome to Vortex.  Today, I "shotgunned it" by rebuilding both probes with new thermistors and thermally conductive epoxy instead of heat-sink compound.  Dave Sabean of BetaTherm said that he never uses the heat-sink compound!  He didn't have any hard evidence against it but he doesn't like it and he always uses epoxy in the BetaTherm factory probes.

>BTW, have you considered the differences in self-heating effects 
>caused by operating the thermistors at different temperatures?

I probably need to study that a little more...but it's probably not the cause of the "erratic hysteresis" I'm seeing.




Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 22:24:19 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:22:27 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:22:19 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little <little@eden.com>
Subject: Re: Pd-D2O incubation period
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At 02:27 AM 7/8/97 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>If you are interested in speeding up the process by a factor of 10 or
>so, then you might like to think about the following. You apparently
>only have one good calorimeter.

I could muster a second one pretty easily.  The dual-method calorimeter is idle right now.

>However very rough static calorimetry using thermos flasks
>might allow you to *pretest* many cathodes concurrently.
>Then you could pick the ones that seems to give good results, for a proper run
>in your good calorimeter. This would also provide a means of
>preloading many cathodes concurrently, thus reducing the loading time.

This is an interesting idea.  I could start a new cell going every day for a work week...resulting in 5 cells going (their names are obvious).  Then, each cell goes into the good calorimeter for one day a week (24 hours) to see if it is producing excess heat.  "Monday" would go into the calorimeter on Monday, "Tuesday" would go in on Tuesday, etc. (I might even be able to keep that straight!).  I'd need 5 power supplies and 5 cell assemblies but then I could run 5 experiments in, say, 5 weeks...1 experiment/week. And each experiment would get to run for 4-5 weeks.  Cells with good behavior would get weekend passes in the calorimeter.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 22:25:36 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:23:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: szdanq@peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu> Subject: Re: Greg's OU claim for rollaways Resent-Message-ID: <"SBltl1.0.BL1.WySmp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

> And as far as Greg claiming that a lower rollaway is
> evidence of OU, could you direct me to that quote if you can?

Rick, here's a copy of Greg's message of 6/27/97:

>From: 	Greg Watson
>Sent: 	Friday, June 27, 1997 9:34 PM
>To: 	List Server Freenrg
>Cc: 	List Server Vortex
>Subject: 	Why ANY SMOT Rollaway is Way Over Ou  
><<File: smotlosses.gif>> 
>Hi All,
>
>I have attached a Gif of a series of simple test I just did on one of my
>SMOT Mk2 ramps.
>
>I shows that the SMOT Mk2 ramps are very lossy and its NOT just because
>of friction.
>
>It also explains why any SMOT rollaway, even lower level ones ARE Ou!
>
>Part of the SMOT puzzle is trying to understand why the losses are
>related to the magnet array spacing.  Reduce SMOT Mk2 magnet array
>spacing from 30mm to 20mm and losses go up 350%!!!!!!!
>
>Just thought I would throw this one in as we seem to be getting too
>concerned about levels and such.  Even with good N gauge track, SMOT
>ramps eat the balls's hard won kinetic energy.
>
>Look at the attached Gif, study the data, TRY it yourself and scratch
>your head.  I am..........
>
>-- 
>Best Regards,
> Greg          Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson/

X-From_: freenrg-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 23:00:25 1997 Return-Path: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com X-Intended-For: <knuke@aa.net>
Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:59:10 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:58:53 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
Reply-To: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: PODMOD, MRA, egos...
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On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Bob Shannon wrote:

> I think you may find that the PODMOD is yet another example of the all
> too common failure to account for the AC power factor.  I read a review
> to this effect some years ago.  Does anyone have other data on this?

McKie is local, and I've heard various stories, but nothing about solid o/u results.  I called him once a couple of years back, but he wouldn't talk to me.  I think he was involved with Zenergy Inc., maybe they know about his current status.

> If PODMOD's claims are not valid for this reason, whats the current
> count for over unity claims that evaporated in the light of the AC power
> factor?  (It's a long list!)

Definitely.  Wootan's and McClain's MRA seemed to violate this rule. 
Their output was DC, input AC, which means that any phase shift on the input current makes the output/input power ratio seem lower than it really is.  Ignoring the phase shifts would then make an o/u result look like underunity (most attackers of the MRA whined about power factor anyway, showing that they didn't understand basic circuitry themselves!)  But then the MRA voltage measurements were wrong anyway.  I think the errors involved mistaken freq specs on their DVM (they thought that the frequency counter's limit was also the spec for the true-rms AC voltmeter section of the DVM.)  And in Scott Little's report, he found that they also had measured the input power by using the MRA to drag down the output voltage of an audio amp, then making incorrect calculations based on the voltage sag. 

I've never heard the final story on MRA (if there was one.)  I have lots of advice for what should have been done differently.  But then I wasn't in that situation, and I might have followed the same path anyway.

One thing I learned from watching flamewars about various free energy devices: it's a very big mistake for a researcher to become defensive because of skeptical attacks.  As soon as we hide our mistakes from our enemies, we immediately are in serious danger of hiding them from our collegues and from ourselves as well.  When a researcher starts in with self defense and denial-think, that's the end, because mistakes will start building up without limit.  I'm sure you know people who have fallen into this trap.  This is the old "intellectual honesty" issue, which might better be called the "scientific integrity" issue.  Ideally a researcher must practice absolutely brutal self-honesty and scathing self-criticism. 
When we make stupid mistakes, we must not cover them up, instead we must *advertize* them.  When an outsider attacks our work, we must not counterattack, or hastily patch the weaknesses without discussion, even if that outsider is a sneering skeptic.  Instead we have to "be weak" and admit to our embarassing errors, discuss them, expose them for all to see.
It's the only way to eliminate the automatic habit we humans have of painting positive pictures of ourselves.  Painting a positive picture may be good for the ego, but it's the total opposite of the pursuit of truth, it's a form of blindness which wrecks our chances of success.

I realize that even professional scientists don't usually hold to this standard of behavior.  And I realize that it's VERY hard to maintain it (I certainly have lots of trouble myself.)  But more than anything else, staying highly critical of one's own work and maintaining extreme levels of honesty is what makes a person a real scientist.  And not doing all this is the number one way to become a true crackpot. 

For example, you mention the power factor mistake.  A good researcher would be overjoyed to hear about that possibility.  After all, it represents a new bit of ammunition which can be used to shoot oneself down.  On the other hand, real crackpots would instead take insult and see your comments as a despicable attack.  They might end up never accepting the possibility that their measurements were flawed, much less spending time and money to do the complicated testing needed to find the truth.

(Oops.  Lecture mode off...)

.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117  billb eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  7 23:19:19 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:15:42 +0800 (SGT) X-Sender: mpowers8@po.pacific.net.sg
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From: mpower consultants <mpowers8 pacific.net.sg> Subject: Re: Question on radioisotope power Resent-Message-ID: <"74SE3.0.HR2.IjTmp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Horace Heffner posted the following (edited for brevity) at 00:01 1997.07.07 -0800:
>At 6:26 PM 4/26/97, Tim D Vaughan wrote:
>>Here is a question for you physicists:
>>
>>If you could convert all of the kinetic energy of the particles emitted
>>by
>>radium to high grade energy such as electricity, how much pure
>>radium would you need to get a rate of 1000 watts ?
>
<snip>
>
>Assuming purified Ra226 with half life of 1599 y and energy of 4.870 MeV.
>A mole of Ra (or anything) contains Avogadro's no. of atoms, or 6.022x10^23
>atoms. A mole of Ra weighs 226.02 g.
>
>When considering an interval less than 1% of the half-life we can handily
>use the Rutherford-Soddy law of radioactive decay, which says if we have N
>atoms to begin with:
>
>   No. decays = D = 0.69x(timeinterval/half-life)xN
>
>This is just an approximation based of the slope of the logarithmic decay
>curve at time zero.
>
>One year has 365.25 days/year x 24 hours/day x 60 min/hr x 60 sec/min =
>3.156x10^7 seconds.  A radium half life thus has 3.156x10^7 seconds x 1599
>= 5.05x10^10 sec.
>
>A mole of radium is therefore consumed at the rate of
>
>   Dm = 0.69(1 sec/5.05x10^10 sec)6.022x10^23 atoms/sec per mole
>   Dm = 8.23x10^12 dps/mole
>
>The decays per second (dps) per gram is thus:
>
>   Dg = (8.23x10^12 dps/mole)/(226.02 g/mole) = 3.64x10^10 dps/g.
>
>However, 1 eV = 1.602x10^-19 J, so we get a power density P:
>
>   P = Dg(1.602x10^-19 J/eV)(4.87x10^6 eV/decay)
>   P = 2.787x10^-2 (J/s)/g = 0.02787 W/g.

Ok for thermal energy, but what about electrical charge buildup ?
The alpha particle could be crossing an insulator,  resulting in a charge separation from the radium/daughter products.
Admitted the charge would be small (2 x 3.64E+10)/6.24E+18 amps  but if you could impose a magnetic field charge separation barrier
  in the insulator and then you could magnify the charge accumulation
   using ions generated when the alphas cross the insulator. 

or perhaps these guys were running a tesla coil in reverse,  pumping the charge off the alphas through the secondary,
  drawing power off the primary ...

>
>So, to get 1000 W we need a mass m:
>
>   m = (1000 W)/(0.02787 W/g.) = 35.88 kG.

Thermally ?

>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          

Just a few more contrarian thoughts...
cheers

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 00:35:19 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:33:06 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:32:32 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Question on radioisotope power Resent-Message-ID: <"R96BM2.0.cI5.nqUmp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 2:15 PM 7/8/97, mpower consultants wrote: [snip]
>
>Ok for thermal energy, but what about electrical charge buildup ?
>The alpha particle could be crossing an insulator,
> resulting in a charge separation from the radium/daughter products.
>Admitted the charge would be small (2 x 3.64E+10)/6.24E+18 amps
> but if you could impose a magnetic field charge separation barrier
>  in the insulator and then you could magnify the charge accumulation
>   using ions generated when the alphas cross the insulator.
>
>or perhaps these guys were running a tesla coil in reverse,
> pumping the charge off the alphas through the secondary,
>  drawing power off the primary ...
>
[snip]

I don't know what your main subject is as I have not subscribed to freenrg for some time now.  Dropped vortex too, but couldn't resist getting back on.  May have to go again soon.

About the above, keep in mind that as a charge builds up, particles moving in the direction of the charge, against the charge field gradient, lose exactly the amount of kinetic energy that is gained in the potential energy in the increased electrostatic field.  What goes into electrical energy is exactly matched by what is lost as heat, as far as is known presently.

Not sure what you mean by a "magnetic field charge separation barrier." Unlike charges separated magnetically lose kinetic energy by the separation.

Tesla coils are conservative devices.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 04:39:09 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:37:05 -0700 X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 07:35:19 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: Pd-D2O incubation period
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  The time given for "turn on" of effects in palladium/D2O may not be long enough
if the loading flux ratio is too low for the volume and the leakage rate out of the volume. 

  Note that IF the above is true, then 5 (or more) duplicates of the wrong time, will not help the result.


  Also, colleagues, codeposition (see Fusion Technology, 7/97 I think) can be used, which speeds up the time to onset.

  Hope that helps.  Best wishes.
  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 04:26:16 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:18:47 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: National Institute of Standards and Technology. NIST.
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:18:32 +0000
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Formerly the National Bureau of Standards this Govt Agency has a plethora of information on it's website.  www.nist.gov

Great search engine at; http://webbook.nist.gov  for chemical and thermochemical data etc. Lottsa Goodies.

Regards,      Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 04:37:51 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:25:32 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: zero drift problem
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	Dear Scott and Vo,
	Scott,

	I might be instructive to all of us out here  'troubleshooting by remote' to have a description of the signal train.  Where you have any of the following elements and what they do.   Important also to know exactly the types and relationships of power supplies, grounding and cable and cable return types:

	front end amp
	levelshift and set, span and zero amps, if any
	isolation, if any
	set span and zero after isolation
	any and all anti-alias filtering
	front end and type of digitizing
	digital/analog isolation .... ie., many computers are source of error in that they make noise and the subsequent mish mash is conveyed along signal cables to sensitive and not-so-sensitive nodes closer to analog end of train
	front end of actual sampling
	sampling: type, rate, jitter, clocking method, 
		? is it a switched cap type ?  ? S/H ?  If either what is buffering up stream.?
	Actual reference and rail for A/D


	one error example:  a 5% bleed through of any rate or time period qulified artifact can easily result in 2-3 percent error as alias.

On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Scott Little wrote:

> At 06:46 PM 7/7/97 -0500, John Fields wrote:
> 
> >If the thermistors and their assemblies are identical it might be 
> >instructive to interchange them.  That is, use the input probe to 
> >sample the output temperature and vice versa.
> 
> Good suggestion, John...and welcome to Vortex.  Today, I "shotgunned it" by
> rebuilding both probes with new thermistors and thermally conductive epoxy
> instead of heat-sink compound.  Dave Sabean of BetaTherm said that he never
> uses the heat-sink compound!  He didn't have any hard evidence against it
> but he doesn't like it and he always uses epoxy in the BetaTherm factory probes.
> 
> >BTW, have you considered the differences in self-heating effects 
> >caused by operating the thermistors at different temperatures?
> 
> I probably need to study that a little more...but it's probably not the
> cause of the "erratic hysteresis" I'm seeing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little 
> EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
> 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
> little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little
> 
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 05:33:19 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: 08 Jul 97 08:25:33 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
Resent-Message-ID: <"OXHly3.0.KU1.R9Zmp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Barry,

 > Yes, I've seen Hoagland claim credit, and seen other attribute  > credit, but I've not read the actual article in question. My  > skeptical question would be: did Hoagland merely speculate that  > Europa had an ocean---which would not be that praiseworthy---or  > did he contruct a compelling argument based planetary geophysical  > data?

Fair question, and I don't know the answer.  That still leaves the spot on Neptune (or whichever), but it seems that people tend to go one way of the other as they get older.  Some get more rigid, others tend to lose their marbles.  Certainly Newton lost it, spending so much of his later years on astrology; and some (I'm not sure how justifiably) say that Hoyle lost it too - and that his losing it meant that his earlier stuff on stellar nuclear reactions doesn't get as much credit as it perhaps would have done had he kept the party line.

 > As for the face---yes, I'd love it to be "real". I just really  > doubt it, since there is no natural law against landforms looking  > like faces, and indeed there are many examples (which of course  > says something important about our visual system).

Glad you'd be happy.  I agree that the face isn't likely to be real, but for different reasons.  think your argument falls down in that (while we do see 'human faces' in every cloud or tree-bole), nobody seems to have been able to find anything which shows up so well under analysis (fractal included) as does the Cydonia face.  But that proves only that it looks to be the best 'sport' we've seen so far.

One curious thought is that if the face were sufficiently obviously humanoid, then we'd have to agree it was artificial.  That then begs the question of Aristotelian 'faceness', in other words at what point are we forced to conclude (in Ockhamist terms) that we must multiply entities?

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 06:46:54 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:45:03 -0700 Date: 08 Jul 97 09:43:34 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: final SMOT experiment
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To: Vortex

Rick Monteverde writes:

     I've seen very few postings here from Greg lately. I hope that means
     he's working hard on those kits.

No, it means he is on vacation. He will be back next week, I think. Even o-u scientists get to take a break occassionally, except Chris, of course.

- Jed

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 06:06:45 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:59:03 -0700 Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 07:49:31 -0700
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Moray device dated
References: <970707173525_-790845908 emout18.mail.aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"hmaTQ3.0.ps3.McZmp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Gnorts Vorts!

Don't know who all attended the ISNE 97 conference in Denver, but John Moreland has done a lot of research into the Moray unit.  His most recent claim is that Moray used radium in the circuit....Dan Davidson also met Henry Moray and published in his book 'Breakthrough to Free Energy Devices' the nugget that Moray used a radium coated antenna, many years before anyone else ever said this publicly.

Moray used to get skin cancer lesions on his hands from handling radioactive materials...I always attributed it to his research into transmutation....however, he could HEAL his cancers using what he called a 'peach blossom violet' ray, produced by a special lamp he patented...it used a Moray valve to produce this violet ray and the cancer would fade away with exposure to the light.....it is also of note that the Priore device also used a violet ray, as is the light from a 'Master Violet Ray' treatment device that uses argon for the inert gas in its electrodes....so too did Dinshah Ghadiali of SpectroChrome Therapy fame claim that a pink/violet light would cure cancers...

I digress, sorry, the point here is Moreland says the 'Swedish Stone' that Moray got while at Uppsala was in fact a piece of lead that had radium melted into it....he got this from an amateur radio experimenter who Moreland believes died during the War, which is why Moray couldn't just go over there and get more when his supply ran out.  
The later version used the 18 elements mineral combination which Moreland also claims comes from an area of Baja California....just a bit more info on Moray that may or may not be true...
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 08:07:22 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:56:25 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: zero drift problem
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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At 7:25 AM 7/8/97, John Schnurer wrote: [snip]
>        I might be instructive to all of us out here  'troubleshooting by
>remote' to have a description of the signal train.  Where you have any of
>the following elements and what they do.   Important also to know exactly
>the types and relationships of power supplies, grounding and cable and
>cable return types:
>
>        front end amp
>        levelshift and set, span and zero amps, if any
>        isolation, if any
>        set span and zero after isolation
>        any and all anti-alias filtering
>        front end and type of digitizing
>        digital/analog isolation .... ie., many computers are source of
>error in that they make noise and the subsequent mish mash is conveyed
>along signal cables to sensitive and not-so-sensitive nodes closer to
>analog end of train
>        front end of actual sampling
>        sampling: type, rate, jitter, clocking method,
>                ? is it a switched cap type ?  ? S/H ?  If either what is
>buffering up stream.?
>        Actual reference and rail for A/D
>
[snip]

The above kinds of errors can all be nullified if you use frequency shift of a crystal to measure the temperature instead of thermistor, RTD, etc., true?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 13:54:20 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:51:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 16:48:41 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
References: <970708122532_100433.1541_BHG64-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"od0T82.0.fR3.KXgmp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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  That is NOT what the fractals that Chris is speaking about are about.  Unless your background includes imaging analysis, suggest you separate the numerology claims from the imaging observations.

   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)


At 03:34 PM 7/8/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Chris writes:
>> think your argument falls down in that (while we do
>> see 'human faces' in every cloud or tree-bole), nobody
>> seems to have been able to find anything which shows up so well under
>> analysis (fractal included) as does the Cydonia face.
>
>Fractals make nice generators of tree-like shapes as well as landscapes.
>One is life, the other is erosion, but neither are intelligent life as
>we know it.
>
>One should realize that numerology has a rather long history of reading
>significance into mathematical relationships of natural as well as
>man made objects.  Some claim, for instance that there is a relationship
>between the dimensions of pyramids and the distance to the sun (with
>a wide margin of error, alas.)  This is offered as evidence of ancient
>astronauts.
>
>But there are so many relationships to "fit" the data to, that it is
>little surprise that we can look at most any object and find some
>"hits."  The harder we look, the more we will likely find.
>
>Given the wide array of false positives in such a field, it makes it
>hard to take any claim seriously based solely on such comparisons.
>Other data will have to make the case and carry the day.  The
>numerological aspects will always be merely a curiosity, indicating
>nothing and proving nothing.
>
>-- 
> - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -
> - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
> -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 09:58:41 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:54:38 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:53:29 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Crystal delta T thermometer
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The following is an idea for a crystal based delta T thermometer.

The idea is to use the pulse output of crystral oscillator O1 to drive an interval timer to count the pulses from crystal oscillator O2.  The actual crystals would be located in shielded probes and connected to the oscillators by shielded cables.  I believe off the shelf crystals are available in 2 mm dia. x 6 mm metal canisters. The oscillator output would be cleaned up using triggers and the digital pulses used to drive binary counters. The output of O1 (from the reference crystal) would drive an interval timer counter being decremented from a preset count Ct2. When the interval timer zeros, the input from O1 and O2 would be suppressed, the contents of a second counter (Ct2) being driven by O2 would then be latched to buffer for input by a controller for numerical processing, or read directly by the controller.  The controller would read the data and then reset the counter for O1 to Ct1, zero Ct2, and open the gates to O1 and O2 to repeat the process.  Simultaneously, readings from thermistors in the probes, or at least one thermistor, would be needed to determine absolute temperature.

The value used to determine the differential temperature DT would then principly be (Ct2 - Ct1), i.e. DT=k1(Ct2 - Ct1)+k2.  Calibration would determine if k1 or k2 varied with absolute temperature, i.e. if k1=f1(T), k2=f2(T) for functions f1 and f2.  It is also possible (ugly) that k1=g1(T,Ct1,Ct2), and k2=g2(T,Ct1,Ct2), where g1 and g2 are non-linear funtions, but that would have to be determined by calibration.
Alternately, given absolute temperatures at the probes T1 and T2, it might be useful to determine functions k1=g1(T1,T2) and k2=g2(T1,T2) during calibration. Of course we can simply say Dt=h(Ct1,Ct2,T1,T2) for function h, but that gives no meaing to the  linear retationships that are probably sufficient for accurately calibrating to determine DT.

The main advantage to the design should be repeatablility.  This is due to the the principle value (Ct2 - Ct1) being determined digitally.  The absolute temperature only affects determination of k1 and k2, which should be of secondary significance, due to an expected small variation of k1 and k2 over the measurement ranges.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 19:11:00 +0000
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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At 04:39 PM 7/8/97 -0500, John wrote:

>It doesn't really matter which mathematical analysis you apply, the
>question is one of coincidence.  There are, in fact, coincidences.
>Especially when we take an artifact and then conduct a search for
>a "hit" among an unbounded array of comparisons.
>
>One would expect a face like object to have fractal characteristics
>similar to real faces.  One would expect a geological object to have
>fractal characteristics of geological objects.  One would expect
>a natural geological object that looks like a face to have some
>cross of fractal characterisitics.
>
>Since there is no prototypical face, no prototypical geological
>object, no prototypical alien monolith, all the fractal results
>are going to be indicative of what?
>

  John,

   The positive fractal structures are all clustered over a very small area.  Why might that be?  

  Best wishes.
  
  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 16:18:07 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:14:49 -0700 X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 19:12:58 +0000
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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At 05:41 PM 7/8/97 EDT, Chris wrote:
>John,
>
>Always nice to hear from you.
>
> > Fractals make nice generators of tree-like shapes as well as
> > landscapes. One is life, the other is erosion, but neither are
> > intelligent life as we know it.
>
>Well, the former would be more than interesting.  In the case of the
>latter, I've seen various fractal images of all kinds of places on Mars,
>and (while naturally I take all reports with a pinch of salt) it was
>quite clear that the Cydonia landscape showed many hits, when these were
>rarely seen elsewhere.

  Well put.  The Quest mag is available at 3.45 pounds (UK), Chris, and it previously was AAES.

  Mitchell


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 13:08:50 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:06:25 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: rl_brodzinski@pnl.gov
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Light Lepton Pair Production and Transmutations.
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:05:51 +0000
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Production of a "light lepton" positive-negative particle pairs from photons of 1.4 ev (more or less) could result in pairing with proton/deuterons and electrons to form neutral particles that could react with any nucleus and effect transmutations.

For instance if a photon of 1.4 ev instead of scattering from a collision with an electron, formed a 0.7 ev +/- "light lepton" pair the positive particle could "orbit" the electron at a radius of about 2.81E-15 meters, thus forming a neutral particle 1.5 times the mass of the electron.

The negative "light lepton" could "orbit" a proton or deuteron at the same radius making a heavy neutral particle slightly more massive than the proton or deuteron by 4.557E-31 kg or half the rest mass of the electron.

In both cases, some 256 Kev of energy will be released (in bursts) when the electron or proton/deuteron take up the "light lepton".

Since the rest mass of a 0.7 ev particle is about 1.25E-36 kg, relativistic effects come into play even at fractions of an ev kinetic energy:

Mr = (e*V)/(Mo*c^2)+ 1. The cent. force; Fc = Mr*c^2/R is half the electrostatic force; k*e^2/R^2 indicating a stable "orbit" for the composite neutral particles.

Given the amount of photons of 1-2 ev or so that have to be involved with the "Cold Fusion" electrolysis cathode reactions, and other such phenomena that seems to occur with heated nickel or palladium, especially if they are activated with alkali metals, there must be "light lepton" pair production occurring.

Regards,     Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 13:38:56 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:35:59 -0700 (PDT) From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Chris writes:
> think your argument falls down in that (while we do
> see 'human faces' in every cloud or tree-bole), nobody
> seems to have been able to find anything which shows up so well under
> analysis (fractal included) as does the Cydonia face.

Fractals make nice generators of tree-like shapes as well as landscapes.
One is life, the other is erosion, but neither are intelligent life as we know it.

One should realize that numerology has a rather long history of reading significance into mathematical relationships of natural as well as man made objects.  Some claim, for instance that there is a relationship between the dimensions of pyramids and the distance to the sun (with a wide margin of error, alas.)  This is offered as evidence of ancient astronauts.

But there are so many relationships to "fit" the data to, that it is little surprise that we can look at most any object and find some "hits."  The harder we look, the more we will likely find.

Given the wide array of false positives in such a field, it makes it hard to take any claim seriously based solely on such comparisons.
Other data will have to make the case and carry the day.  The numerological aspects will always be merely a curiosity, indicating nothing and proving nothing.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -  - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 14:45:16 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:40:30 -0700 (PDT) From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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> >Fractals make nice generators of tree-like shapes as well as landscapes.
> >One is life, the other is erosion, but neither are intelligent life as
> >we know it.

Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) wrote:
>   That is NOT what the fractals that Chris is speaking about
> are about.  Unless your background includes imaging analysis, suggest
> you separate the numerology claims from the imaging observations.

Neo-numerology, or numerology in a new hat.

It doesn't really matter which mathematical analysis you apply, the question is one of coincidence.  There are, in fact, coincidences.
Especially when we take an artifact and then conduct a search for a "hit" among an unbounded array of comparisons.

One would expect a face like object to have fractal characteristics similar to real faces.  One would expect a geological object to have fractal characteristics of geological objects.  One would expect a natural geological object that looks like a face to have some cross of fractal characterisitics.

Since there is no prototypical face, no prototypical geological object, no prototypical alien monolith, all the fractal results are going to be indicative of what?

It is not that numerology doesn't give nice coincidences, it is just that the number of false positives in the field leaves its predictive value near zero.

There was a similar problem in cereology (the study of crop circles.)  Jenny Randles, a British UFO researcher (and believer, even) dispaired that there were so many hoaxes in the creation of crop circles that even if real aliens were making some of them, the signal to noise ratio was so poor that there was no point in bothering to investigate them.

A glut of false positives renders the analysis useless.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -  - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 14:46:44 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: 08 Jul 97 17:41:49 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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John,

Always nice to hear from you.

 > Fractals make nice generators of tree-like shapes as well as  > landscapes. One is life, the other is erosion, but neither are  > intelligent life as we know it.

Well, the former would be more than interesting.  In the case of the latter, I've seen various fractal images of all kinds of places on Mars, and (while naturally I take all reports with a pinch of salt) it was quite clear that the Cydonia landscape showed many hits, when these were rarely seen elsewhere.

 > One should realize that numerology has a rather long history of  > reading significance into mathematical relationships of natural as  > well as man made objects.  Some claim, for instance that there is  > a relationship between the dimensions of pyramids and the distance  > to the sun (with a wide margin of error, alas.)  This is offered  > as evidence of ancient astronauts.

I should have made it clear that the last thing I take any notice of is the numerology which has been done on the Cydonia landscape.  In fact, I recently posted here a message to that effect, commenting that I feel that this is a case of people effectively commenting on the low chance of a golf-ball landing on a specific spot - after it has already landed there.

 > But there are so many relationships to "fit" the data to, that it  > is little surprise that we can look at most any object and find  > some "hits."  The harder we look, the more we will likely find.

Yes, I think you put it rather better than I did.

 > Given the wide array of false positives in such a field, it makes  > it hard to take any claim seriously based solely on such  > comparisons. Other data will have to make the case and carry the  > day.  The numerological aspects will always be merely a curiosity,  > indicating nothing and proving nothing.

Of course.  But, with Global Surveyor only a few weeks from Mars, I for one am reluctant to make any firm statements about what it will find...

Warm regards,

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 15:41:49 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:39:51 -0700 (PDT) From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Chris wrote:
> I should have made it clear that the last thing I take any notice of is
> the numerology which has been done on the Cydonia landscape.  In fact,
> I recently posted here a message to that effect, commenting that I feel
> that this is a case of people effectively commenting on the low chance
> of a golf-ball landing on a specific spot - after it has already landed
> there.

Sorry, I thought you were saying that though such things as numerology don't show much, fractal analysis of Cydonia showed it more so. :-)

> Of course.  But, with Global Surveyor only a few weeks from Mars, I for
> one am reluctant to make any firm statements about what it will find...

I generally don't take firm positions unless there is a compelling reason to do so.  In this case given our experience with rock formations (I was just in Bryce Canyon in Utah/USA and there is a rock formation that looks just like Queen Victoria, and is so named) and numerology, that I find no compelling reason to attribute any firm meaning to Cydonia.

Similarly if closer examination of Cydonia shows bits of tool or obvious signs of non-geological fabrication, all to the better.

Unfortunately, it is possible that intelligently fabricated objects can become indistinquisable from natural formations, given eons of erosion.  Plenty of fodder for the numerologist, no doubt, but less compelling for the rest of us.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -  - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 16:27:38 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:25:19 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 18:23:57 -0500 (CDT) From: John Fields <starship@fc.net>
Subject: Re: Crystal delta T thermometer To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Horace Heffner wrote:

> The following is an idea for a crystal based delta T thermometer.
> 
> The idea is to use the pulse output of crystral oscillator O1 to drive an
> interval timer to count the pulses from crystal oscillator O2.  The actual
> crystals would be located in shielded probes and connected to the
> oscillators by shielded cables.  I believe off the shelf crystals are
> available in 2 mm dia. x 6 mm metal canisters. The oscillator output would
> be cleaned up using triggers and the digital pulses used to drive binary
> counters. The output of O1 (from the reference crystal) would drive an
> interval timer counter being decremented from a preset count Ct2. When the
> interval timer zeros, the input from O1 and O2 would be suppressed, the
> contents of a second counter (Ct2) being driven by O2 would then be latched
> to buffer for input by a controller for numerical processing, or read
> directly by the controller.  The controller would read the data and then
> reset the counter for O1 to Ct1, zero Ct2, and open the gates to O1 and O2
> to repeat the process.  Simultaneously, readings from thermistors in the
> probes, or at least one thermistor, would be needed to determine absolute
> temperature.
> 
> The value used to determine the differential temperature DT would then
> principly be (Ct2 - Ct1), i.e. DT=k1(Ct2 - Ct1)+k2.  Calibration would
> determine if k1 or k2 varied with absolute temperature, i.e. if k1=f1(T),
> k2=f2(T) for functions f1 and f2.  It is also possible (ugly) that
> k1=g1(T,Ct1,Ct2), and k2=g2(T,Ct1,Ct2), where g1 and g2 are non-linear
> funtions, but that would have to be determined by calibration.
> Alternately, given absolute temperatures at the probes T1 and T2, it might
> be useful to determine functions k1=g1(T1,T2) and k2=g2(T1,T2) during
> calibration. Of course we can simply say Dt=h(Ct1,Ct2,T1,T2) for function
> h, but that gives no meaing to the  linear retationships that are probably
> sufficient for accurately calibrating to determine DT.
> 
> The main advantage to the design should be repeatablility.  This is due to
> the the principle value (Ct2 - Ct1) being determined digitally.  The
> absolute temperature only affects determination of k1 and k2, which should
> be of secondary significance, due to an expected small variation of k1 and
> k2 over the measurement ranges.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
---------------- 
Horace,

One of the problems associated with using oscillating crystals to determine temperature is that most crystals are cut specifically to minimize variations in frequency due to variations in temperature.

This is in order to keep your watch accurate when you're outside in the summer as well as in the winter.

Crystals can be cut to give an accurate and repeatable frequency vs. temp relationship, but then other problems creep up.

For example, in order to make the oscillator as stable as possible, the crystal should be mounted as close as possible to the oscillator in order to minimize the change in lead capacitance which will occur if the crystal is connected to the oscillator via any kind of cable. This change in capacitance will cause the frequency of the oscillator to shift in an undesirable way.

Placing everything close together will mitigate this problem, but then the components comprising the frequency dependent portions of the circuit will be exposed to the same temperature as the crystal and will each contribute to the total error in the system due to their varying temperature coefficients.

Not only that, the probe gets bigger and more intrusive in situ, and the power used to run the oscillator can cause further temperature errors to accumulate.

There are also other ways which could be used to measure the temperature of Scott's bath, for instance measuring the change in refractive index of the water, or measuring the change in the velocity of sound through the water, but I think his approach is probably the method of choice for his application.

John Fields
-----------


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 16:46:44 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:43:17 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net References: <970709153652_100433.1541_BHG95-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Chris  Tinsley" at Jul 9"
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:46:52 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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John -

   >
   >  However, in my personal opinion, the
   >  compelling reason to doubt alien
   >  construction on Mars is the known
   >  physics of such things as conservation of
   >  momentum which preclude easy
   >  inter-stellar travel -- especially for the
   >  purpose of building gigantic happy faces
   >  on desert planets.

Huh???

*We're* here, aren't we? How'd we get here without violating some law of physics? Why do you consider that relevant? Ever see the happy faces and pyramids and stuff in the deserts here? Mars is right next door.

In a way then, it seems actually just as likely as not that in Mars' distant past as a wet planet, life would have evolved as it did here, and that civilizations could have come and gone just like it has here over the billions of years. I mean, if you've got cockroaches in your kitchen, you've got 'em in your bathroom too!

If you look at just the *changes* that occur in evolution, there's probably only a few million years needed to go from algae mats to humanlike forms.
Again that is, if you subtract out the long periods of stability for a given life form where it changed little, the development time could be very short. We only have our model here, and underlying that model is quite a bit of doubt over the timescales involved, and even doubt as to the underlying basic driving forces in the model itself. Variations and suprises fill the record, and the net sum of results over time would then seem to be quite variable as well. Bombardment by interplanetary debris seems to have played a crucial role here in life's development; that's where the big wholesale changes are. Mars is closer to the asteroids, and probably took more hits. Here huge land animals developed almost suddenly, and we go from mud huts to Mars exploration in the course of a few thousand years *despite* all the strife and nonsense we endure from our screwy "human nature" along the way (i.e. bash your neighbors skull in because he doesn't worship the same "god" as you do). Some form of accelerated evolution isn't really needed to put civilizations on Mars, but all other factors being similar, it might be a variant on what we see evidence of here on earth.

The point is, we only have our model here to look at, the dating is a little bit ambiguous, and it may not be the *necessary* model for the rate and sequence that life forms take to develop. But if you apply this general model, whether or not you stipulate that monument builders there must have done their work a billion years earlier than the development of similar capability on this planet, you'd still have to allow for a good possibility of similar development within a similar time frame on a similar planet without invoking some law of physics regarding *travel*. Who says travel from some distant place is even relevant? I am not aware of some special life-nursery spewing its products out across the void from millions of light years away. And even if there is such a thing, how do you know the wavefront of "products" (or services!) hasn't already reached our region as of some billions of years ago?

I put my nickel into the NASA budget too, and now I want to see a closeup of that damn face. It's not asking too much.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 01:31:35 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 01:29:53 -0700 Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 08:03:05 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
To: Puthoff aol.com, vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: Casimir effect in dielectrics: ...
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Hi,

Vo's who is interested on ZPE may read this paper released today: "http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/hep-th/9707073"

Abstract:

Casimir effect in dielectrics: Surface area contribution

Authors: Carmen Molina-Paris (Los Alamos), Matt Visser (Washington University)
Comments: 12 pages; ReV-Tex in double-column format

In this paper we take a deeper look at the technically elementary but physically robust viewpoint in which the Casimir energy in dielectric media is interpreted as the change in the total zero point energy of the electromagnetic vacuum summed over all states. Extending results presented in previous papers [hep-th/9609195; hep-th/9702007] we approximate the sum over states by an integral over the density of states including finite volume corrections. For an arbitrarily-shaped finite dielectric, the first finite-volume correction to the density of states is shown to be proportional to the surface area of the dielectric interface and is explicitly evaluated as a function of the permeability and permitivity. Since these calculations are founded in an elementary and straightforward way on the underlying physics of the Casimir effect they serve as an important consistency check on field-theoretic calculations. As a concrete example we discuss Schwinger's suggestion that the Casimir effect might be the underlying physical basis behind sonoluminescence}. The recent controversy concerning the relative importance of volume and surface contributions is discussed. For sufficiently large bubbles the volume effect is always dominant.
Furthermore we can explicitly calculate the surface area contribution as a function of refractive index. 

Regards,

Hamdi Ucar

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 21:33:30 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:31:44 -0700 From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: dimensionsw
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) wrote:
>    The positive fractal structures are all clustered over
> a very small area.  Why might that be?  

The $64,000 question.


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -  - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: zero drift to be expected!
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It is a most humbling experience to have the necessary information to solve one's problem lying around for days before realizing how to use it.

Our offset function, empirically determined by running the calorimeter over a range of chamber temps with zero input power, expresses the offset between the Tout and Tin probes as a function of Tin, the inlet water temp, which is typically very close to the overall interior temperature of the Dewar.  The function is quite linear and has a distinct negative slope which I initially thought was just due to the two thermistors being used.

It is now apparent that this negative slope is due to the small but finite conductivity of the Dewar that insulates the calorimeter chamber. In fact, the magnitude of this slope allows calculation of the effective conductivity of this Dewar:  0.005 watt/K*m   This is about 7 times better than Styrofoam, which I suppose is reasonable performance for a Dewar.

Anyway, it is now apparent that the shifts I have been seeing in the zero are due simply to changes in room temperature!  I should have been expressing the offset as a function of (Troom-Tdewar) not Tin.  Actually this function now will become more than just an offset correction.  It should correct in one fell swoop for both the offset between the two thermistors AND the finite conductivity of the Dewar...

Tomorrow we'll see if any of this supposition "holds water"...



Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 23:25:38 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:24:06 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:23:19 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Crystal delta T thermometer Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 6:23 PM 7/8/97, John Fields wrote:
[snip]
>
>For example, in order to make the oscillator as stable as possible, the
>crystal should be mounted as close as possible to the oscillator in order
>to minimize the change in lead capacitance which will occur if the
>crystal is connected to the oscillator via any kind of cable. This change
>in capacitance will cause the frequency of the oscillator to shift in an
>undesirable way.

To some extent isn't the LC circuit of the oscillator synchronized by the crystal oscillations?  If C goes too far out mayby it drops beats?  I realize all this probably isn't easy to get accurate, because the super accurate commercial crystal units are over $10,000.

>
>Placing everything close together will mitigate this problem, but then
>the components comprising the frequency dependent portions of the circuit
>will be exposed to the same temperature as the crystal and will each
>contribute to the total error in the system due to their varying
>temperature coefficients.


OK, how's this for an idea?  Ping the crystal. Give it a steep rise/fall time pulse and analyse the piezo potential decay oscillations to determine frequency. Would need a slow crystal and very fast counting circuit - like digital oscilloscope sample and hold array.  A piezo would be good for this.


>
>Not only that, the probe gets bigger and more intrusive in situ, and the
>power used to run the oscillator can cause further temperature
>errors to accumulate.


Yes - understand the distance problem.  However, how much can a few feet of coax change in capacitance in a 5 deg. C delta T?  If much, maybe a small coil of teflon coated coax can be used for a probe instead of a crystal!
Another idea might be to pump constant temperature fluid adjacent to the test leads most of their distance, and thermally insulate the test leads all the way from the oscillators right up to the probe beginning.

Another thought is to use shielded twisted pair, which should cut down on capacitance, but increase inductance.  However, it's not the capacitance that's bad, it's the change in capacitance with temperature.  Maybe it would be possible to find a geometry that increased inductance as capacitance decreased, and tend to keep LC constant.


>
>There are also other ways which could be used to measure the temperature
>of Scott's bath, for instance measuring the change in refractive index of
>the water, or measuring the change in the velocity of sound through the
>water, but I think his approach is probably the method of choice for his
>application.
>
>John Fields
>-----------

The more ideas the better.  Sooner or later one will provide the needed improvement.  It's surprizing the synergy that occurs on vortex now and then!

Refractive index change in glass is a possible idea, as well as thermal expansion of glass. It may be possible to deform optical fiber slightly in a pinch location and use change in transmission characteristics to measure temperature at the point of deformation. One problem with that idea is consistency. It would be better to identify a means of shifting light frequency based on temperature.  Maybe interference pattern changes based on change in total length of fiber would work.  If the probe consists of a coil of fiber (vs a reference coil of fiber) it might work?

A cricket can also give temperature measurments - by the time between chirps, the faster the hotter.   I could tell it was a hot evening in SF Bay area when talking to a friend long distance once.  Gave him a surprize until I explained how it was done - by hearing the crickets in the background.  I have since forgotten the coefficient, like so many other things.

Oh well - out of ideas for as you can tell.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  8 23:50:48 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:48:35 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:47:54 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: zero drift to be expected!
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At 12:50 AM 7/9/97, Scott Little wrote:

>
>It is now apparent that this negative slope is due to the small but finite
>conductivity of the Dewar that insulates the calorimeter chamber. In fact,
>the magnitude of this slope allows calculation of the effective conductivity
>of this Dewar:  0.005 watt/K*m   This is about 7 times better than
>Styrofoam, which I suppose is reasonable performance for a Dewar.
>
>
>Scott Little


Congratulations on a probable solution to your problem!

I noted when looking into the possibility of doing calorimetry on a SMOT by using my 4 liter dewar with multiple Omega probes that the heat flow is almost entirely through the glass itself.  This accounts for much more stratification than you might expect in other types of calorimeters.  In steady state the walls of the dewar act like a potential divider, a bridge, for heat.  The stratification can reverse when the temperature drops on the outside of the dewar.  It creates some strange dynamics, especially if you also have a hot item at the bottom of the dewar, e.g. Joule heater for calibration, on which you are doing calorimetry.  My experience was that a number of probes at various levels, all averaged, gives a clearer picture of what is happening.  A fan was out of the question for the application, which involved 0.002 W.

The above is another reason the temperature measuring station concept is fairly good, as the copper core distributes the heat rapidly and evenly over the measuring area, even though it is in the center of the dewar that might stratify.  Stratification is not so significant then, and is even reduced by the copper core.

Just food for thought. I realize you have a lot more experience at this but chatter helps me think so hopefully you too.  That's what I like about vortex - when you wake up inthe morning you are never quite sure what bizarre thing you might be thinking about later in the day!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 03:29:01 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 03:26:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Light Lepton Production, Potpourri of Over-Unity Effects?
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:25:07 +0000
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To Vortex:

The production of Light Lepton Pairs from Red to Infrared photons with subsequent formation of neutral Light Lepton-proton/deuteron and Light Lepton/electron particles. Might be confirmed by many O-U and related phenomena:

1, The seemingly ou effects when Rumford measured the heat obtained
    from "reaming" of a cannon with a water "lubricant", ca. 1780.

2, The production of electrical charges (+/_)from atomizing and shining
   light on sub-micron sized oil droplets in Millikan"s oil drop
    experiment, ca. 1909.

3, Electrical charge build-up with high velocity water jets.

4, Microcavitation and sonoluminescent ou effects.(Griggs & Yusmar).

5, Electrolysis-chemical reaction photons in P&F-Patterson cells.

6, Piantelli heat effects with hydrogen-deuterium and nickel.

7, Transmutation effects in all of these?

8, "Quantum-Mechanical Tunneling" in Hot Fusion.

No new Physics, Just a couple of "Nooks-Crannies and Vortexes in mainstream physics.    :-)

Regards,     Frederick

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Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 11:00:42 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: Pd-D2O incubation period
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Scott:

 You really should get that journal.  It is the best regard cold fusion for a technical and scientific point of view.  If you are serious about this field, you will get it.

  Best wishes.
   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)


At 09:02 AM 7/9/97 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>At 07:35 7/8/97 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
>>  Also, colleagues, codeposition (see Fusion Technology, 7/97 I think)
>>can be used, which speeds up the time to onset.
>
>Mitchell, I don't have that journal handy.  Could you explain the
>codeposition briefly, please?
>
>




X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 08:07:55 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:04:45 -0700 X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 11:02:49 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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  John,  

  could you explain what you mean.  Since, I have exmamined meteoritic impacts on Mars, Mercury, and the Moon, and have looked at those fractal pics, please indicate who you mean by "the author"?, or his purported "degrees of freedom"?  What do you mean?

  Best wishes.

   Mitchell


At 09:26 AM 7/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) wrote:
>>    The positive fractal structures are all clustered over
>> a very small area.  Why might that be?  
>
>I might add that this ought to concern you even more, since now the
>author is arbitrarily selecting areas of the artifact in search
>of hits against an unbounded comparison pool.  He has virtually
>unbounded degrees of freedom on both ends. Are "hits" then any
>surprise?
>
>-- 
> - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -
> - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
> -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 07:07:11 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:02:47 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little <little@eden.com>
Subject: Re: Pd-D2O incubation period
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At 07:35 7/8/97 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>  Also, colleagues, codeposition (see Fusion Technology, 7/97 I think)
>can be used, which speeds up the time to onset.

Mitchell, I don't have that journal handy.  Could you explain the codeposition briefly, please?




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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Subject: possible motto/slogan for Vortex?
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At 22:47 7/8/97 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

>when you wake up in the morning you are never quite sure what
>bizarre thing you might be thinking about later in the day!

Thanks, Horace!


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 07:29:14 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:26:20 -0700 From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: dimensionsw
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) wrote:
>    The positive fractal structures are all clustered over
> a very small area.  Why might that be?  

I might add that this ought to concern you even more, since now the author is arbitrarily selecting areas of the artifact in search of hits against an unbounded comparison pool.  He has virtually unbounded degrees of freedom on both ends. Are "hits" then any surprise?

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -  - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 07:34:15 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:28:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: possible motto/slogan for Vortex?
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:26:29 +0000
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At 02:02 PM 7/9/97 +0000, Scott wrote:
>At 22:47 7/8/97 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>when you wake up in the morning you are never quite sure what
>>bizarre thing you might be thinking about later in the day!
>
>Thanks, Horace!
>
>
True.  The "Dimensionsw" thread has me wondering what the Grand Tetons,
       (Spanish for BIG Boobies) look like from Mir? Especially after
       a couple of weeks-months into the mission.  :-)

Regards,     Frederick
        

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 08:30:24 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:21:20 -0700 Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 10:17:43 -0500
From: Craig Haynie <ccHaynie ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: ccHaynie@ix.netcom.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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John Logajan wrote:
> 
> Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) wrote:
> >    The positive fractal structures are all clustered over
> > a very small area.  Why might that be?
> 
> I might add that this ought to concern you even more, since now the
> author is arbitrarily selecting areas of the artifact in search
> of hits against an unbounded comparison pool.  He has virtually
> unbounded degrees of freedom on both ends. Are "hits" then any
> surprise?

I really didn't want to get involved in this discussion, because it's not appropriate to vortex, but I'm curious about this last comment.

What Hoagland did was take a computer program, supposedly used by the military to find man-made devices hidden in a photographic image by using fractal analysis, and then use this program on images of Mars.
What the program will do is highlight areas in a computer image bit-map which do NOT appear to contain sufficient fractal measurements as would a natural object. When this program is used with an image containing camouflaged military equipment, the program was demonstrated by Hoagland to correctly highlight all of the jeeps, tanks, trucks, and other military equipment present in the image. He then had this same program scan an image of Cydonia. Most of the objects Hoagland had identified as possibly artificially created showed up as 'hits' in the Cydonia photograph. The 'Face' had the highest deviation from normal. As a comparison, Hoagland had the program scan other images of Mars from the same Viking Orbiters, at approximately the same magnification, and found very little to nothing, from what I understand. So, all the 'hits' came from Cydonia. All the anomalous objects show up in the one region of Mars -- Cydonia. 

So I don't understand what's unbound here. Cydonia has limits imposed by those who have been looking at it since the early 1980's. He didn't extend its borders after using this process. Can you please clarify your comments?

Hasta,

Craig Haynie
ccHaynie ix.netcom.com

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Subject: Re: Crystal delta T thermometer To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Horace Heffner wrote:

> To some extent isn't the LC circuit of the oscillator synchronized by the
> crystal oscillations?  If C goes too far out mayby it drops beats?  I
> realize all this probably isn't easy to get accurate, because the super
> accurate commercial crystal units are over $10,000.

In most crystal oscillators which employ intentional inductance and capacitance extrinsic to the crystal, the L and C is used to establish a feedback path to the crystal at a phase angle which will insure sufficient gain in the circuit to start and maintain oscillation. 

In addition to the mechanical characteristics of the crystal which cause it to be resonant at a particular frequency, the crystal itself exhibits an electrical capacitance which must be accounted for in the design of the oscillator.  If the crystal is connected to the oscillator circuitry through a cable, the cable's capacitance will "load" the crystal and cause it to be resonant at a frequency lower than if the cable weren't there.

The oscillator won't "drop beats", it'll just oscillate at a lower frequency than expected.  In addition, if the cable is flexed or subjected to a temperature change its capacitance will change, loading the crystal in a generally unpredictable way, thereby negatively impacting the system's error budget. 

 
> OK, how's this for an idea?  Ping the crystal. Give it a steep rise/fall
> time pulse and analyse the piezo potential decay oscillations to determine
> frequency. Would need a slow crystal and very fast counting circuit - like
> digital oscilloscope sample and hold array.  A piezo would be good for
> this.
 
There are some problems with this scheme, not the least of which is that the coupling to the crystal during the measurement of its decay will lead to an incorrect determination of frequency. At least to a first approximation.

Additionally, there is the question of the amplitude of the ping required to result in a measurable ringing of the crystal.  It could be that the stress placed on the crystal might fracture it the or heat it to the point where the measurement would be meaningless.

> Yes - understand the distance problem.  However, how much can a few feet of
> coax change in capacitance in a 5 deg. C delta T?  

It's pretty easy to figure out... Basically, you need to find the coefficient of thermal expansion of the materials comprising the coax and the change in dielectric constant of the dielectric material separating the inner and outer conductors as a function of temperature. 

Then, since you will know the space between the conductors, the areas of the conductors and the dielectric constant of the dielectric, you can calculate the capacitance change as a function of temperature. 

Or, take a piece of coax and measure its capacitance, then heat it up and measure its capacitance again. 
  
The same goes for twisted pair.

I don't believe it's _ever_ good practice to remote a crystal, except maybe if you're trying to measure the capacitance change of a cable and you know precisely the relationship between oscillator output frequency and crystal loading capacitance! ;^)

John Fields
-----------

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Hi all,

At 22:24 7/9/97 +1300, TeagueFamily wrote:
>FWIW: Prof. Searl's original source of neodymium was as a glass
>colourant. He latched onto that before the magnetic properties of
>neodymium became widely known. I forget what colour he said it produced.

Neodymium glass is a pink-ish color, almost verging on purple.
It's used in safety glasses for laser work.

I've a very sensitive ho-made Geiger counter, that uses a thin mica end window.  The first thing I used it for was a survey of stuff around the homestead.  Two items were surprising, the meters in my R390A mil receiver (no wonder they usually yank the meters before releasing them as surplus) were very hot.  But the real find were the hands on a Montgomery-Ward clock radio!
The radio had an burnt-orange plastic case, and looked like 1950s vintage stuff.  They buried the needle on the Geiger counter!

Some watch repair kits, that were part of a correspondence course, contained a ~1/4 oz tin of radio luminous paint for the repainting of dials and hands.  I don't know the vintage...but it also looked like 40's to 50's stuff.

I checked some rare earth magnets with my Geiger counter this morning.  I didn't get any indication that they were hot.

Best Regards,
JD

------------------------------------------------------------ There's this guy, and look, he has a leg, or an arm...or something.  -Rorschach

E-mail to: mules palacenet.net
<http://www.palacenet.net/home/mules>
------------------------------------------------------------

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 08:42:02 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: 09 Jul 97 11:36:52 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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John,

I think the discussion of this Cydonia business has become far too serious.  Surely it is no more than light entertainment, and perhaps an opportunity to chop logic on a subject of little significance?

 > I generally don't take firm positions unless there is a compelling  > reason to do so.  In this case given our experience with rock  > formations (I was just in Bryce Canyon in Utah/USA and there is a  > rock formation that looks just like Queen Victoria, and is so  > named) and numerology, that I find no compelling reason to  > attribute any firm meaning to Cydonia.

I certainly don't see anything compelling about Cydonia.  But it is interesting, and you seem to be saying that you have compelling reasons for saying that it is not anomalous.  I haven't seen any evidence to support that view.

Is Vicky seen in 3D or in profile?  What I find sort-of interesting is that people show things like our 'angel on Europa' - where if you extend your imagination a bit, you can see something vaguely like a head - as evidence that such things as the Martian 'face' can be ignored.  In fact, the image enhancements (yes, I know) seem to show more and more tantalising hints like an eyeball and teeth.  Does Queen Victoria have these?

The essential question, in the absence of toolmarks and the like, is how much a face has to look like a face before we accept that it is a face.  The Sphinx has a face, nobody would disagree, even if someone did shoot the nose off with a cannon.  And yet we somehow would have trouble working out any quantitative method of determining whether a possible face were or were not deliberately made to be such.  Well, I think it's an interesting question.

As for your comment to Mitchell about fractal analysis, I think the images I've seen appear not to fit your analysis.  There are quite a number shown, of various Mars landscapes, and almost all seem to come up blank, in contrast with the entire Cydonia area which is covered in hits.  Naturally, I am concerned (or would be if I cared much) whether these analyses are overly selective - but they don't seem to be, whereas the flaw in the whole basis of the numerology seems to me to be obvious.

But, like I say, it's just entertainment.  And we will know the answers in a couple of months, because better images will come from the orbiter.

Regards,

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 10:42:09 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:31:47 -0700 Sender: barry@math.ucla.edu
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 10:31:41 -0700
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu> Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: zero drift to be expected!
References: <199707090550.AAA05463 natasha.eden.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"1LcCP3.0.C.2iymp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Scott Little wrote:
> 

> 
> Anyway, it is now apparent that the shifts I have been seeing 
> in the zero
> are due simply to changes in room temperature! 

I found similar room-temp related biases in the flow calorimeter for my version of the CETI experiment (see my web page); there, I was able to observe the temperature gradient from floor to ceiling, which was about 0.1--0.2 C between my Tin and Tout, having a vertical separations of ~ 6 inches.
Ambient room temp would also change this.

-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 10:49:17 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:46:23 -0700 Sender: barry@math.ucla.edu
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 10:43:28 -0700
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu> Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
References: <m0wlxhA-0002CXC mirage.skypoint.com> <33C3AB97.5247@ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"c1zJa1.0.sq.kvymp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Craig Haynie wrote:
> 

> What Hoagland did was take a computer program, supposedly used by the
> military to find man-made devices hidden in a photographic image by
> using fractal analysis, and then use this program on images of Mars.
> What the program will do is highlight areas in a computer 
> image bit-map which do NOT appear to contain sufficient 
> fractal measurements as would a natural object.

> The 'Face' had the highest deviation from normal. 

Thanks for the description. Unfortunately, the above procedure does not add any particular weight to the claims that the face is artificial. The point is, the human eye is already very good---and the trained eye, unsurpassed---in picking out deviant features from an image. So, that fact that the to the human eye the face looks "man made" means that application of the above computer program is redundant---of course it will come out agreeing with the human-eye-based conclusion. It does allow a degree of quantification the eye cannot yield, but it is absolutely no surprise that the human eye and the program would qualitativiely agree on what looks man-made and what doesn't. Anyone who would tout the results of such a computer program as being any more definitive or suggestive than the original human observation is either ignorant or deliberately obsfuscating things with techno-babble.



-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 10:58:11 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:56:08 -0700 Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 10:53:23 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
References: <m0wlxhA-0002CXC mirage.skypoint.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"NWDDy1.0.Ib1.t2zmp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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John Logajan wrote:
> 
> Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) wrote:
> >    The positive fractal structures are all clustered over
> > a very small area.  Why might that be?
> 
> I might add that this ought to concern you even more, since now the
> author is arbitrarily selecting areas of the artifact in search
> of hits against an unbounded comparison pool.  He has virtually
> unbounded degrees of freedom on both ends. Are "hits" then any
> surprise?

This argument is endless. The evidence is not conclusive, but by any measure it is a strong enough to suggest that the structures might be artificial. What could possibly be more interesting on Mars than artificial structures? The public foots the bill, and the public clearly wants more detailed images. Why does NASA seem reluctant to take more images, or at least comment about whether Cydonia is on the Surveyor agenda? If not, why not?

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 11:27:07 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:21:46 -0700 From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp@roshi.com> To: Robert Stirniman <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 11:19:49 -0700
Organization: ROSHI Corporation
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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On 09-Jul-97, Robert Stirniman wrote:
>John Logajan wrote:
>> 
>> Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) wrote:
>> >    The positive fractal structures are all clustered over
>> > a very small area.  Why might that be?
>> 
>> I might add that this ought to concern you even more, since now the
>> author is arbitrarily selecting areas of the artifact in search
>> of hits against an unbounded comparison pool.  He has virtually
>> unbounded degrees of freedom on both ends. Are "hits" then any
>> surprise?

>This argument is endless. The evidence is not conclusive, but 
>by any measure it is a strong enough to suggest that the 
>structures might be artificial. What could possibly be more 
>interesting on Mars than artificial structures? The public 
>foots the bill, and the public clearly wants more detailed 
>images. Why does NASA seem reluctant to take more images, 
>or at least comment about whether Cydonia is on the Surveyor 
>agenda? If not, why not?

>Regards,
>Robert Stirniman

 Massive dittos, Robert! *It's our money, goddamit! *

 Their asses need to be kicked. What did they think, that  Mars was from some other universe?

Later, for bunch rocks and a tinkertoy :( -- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'  www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 11:45:08 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:42:48 -0700 Date: 09 Jul 97 14:41:43 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Robert,

 > Why does NASA seem reluctant to take more images, or at least  > comment about whether Cydonia is on the Surveyor agenda? If not,  > why not?

I don't actually know if that is true.  Assuming it is, I would suggest that NASA don't want to seem as though they are interested in their planetary probes doing anything other than real science.  They would see that as bad for their image.

My own view is that this is a mistake.  I saw - I think in a recent New Scientist - the point being made that Auntie NASA should realise that it is in large measure in the pure entertainment business.  She should kick up her heels and dance on the table.  The Mars rover was the first news item on the BBC for several days, and one of their TV channels (BBC2) held a "Mars Weekend."  People loved the pictures, and were excited by the whole idea.  And NASA must know that it is at least partly through public enthusiasm that they get their money.

But I presume that Global Surveyor (from its name) will be in high or even polar orbit - and anyway the Cydonia area is not at very high latitude.  Presumbably it is self-sustaining, and will be able to maintain its orbit and keep imaging for quite a while.  So I would suppose that Cydonia pictures will at some point become available anyway.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 11:45:32 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:43:03 -0700 X-Sender: johmann@atlantic.net
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 14:42:55 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Kurt Johmann <johmann atlantic.net> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net> writes:

>John Logajan wrote:
>>
>> Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) wrote:
>> >    The positive fractal structures are all clustered over
>> > a very small area.  Why might that be?
>>
>> I might add that this ought to concern you even more, since now the
>> author is arbitrarily selecting areas of the artifact in search
>> of hits against an unbounded comparison pool.  He has virtually
>> unbounded degrees of freedom on both ends. Are "hits" then any
>> surprise?
>
>This argument is endless. The evidence is not conclusive, but
>by any measure it is a strong enough to suggest that the
>structures might be artificial. What could possibly be more
>interesting on Mars than artificial structures? The public
>foots the bill, and the public clearly wants more detailed
>images. Why does NASA seem reluctant to take more images,
>or at least comment about whether Cydonia is on the Surveyor
>agenda? If not, why not?

I feel the same way: the site *looks* like it may be artificial, so let's get better pictures and settle the matter.

Imaging Cydonia should have the *highest* priority. Instead, Nasa seems to want to make excuses about why it may not image the site at all. With such an I-don't-want-to-see-the-pictures response from Nasa (like the churchmen who refused to look in Gallileo's telescope, afraid at what they might see), no wonder people like Hoagland imagine conspiracies to explain Nasa's contemptible status-quo monkey-cover-your-eyes attitude.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 12:06:04 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:00:16 -0700 (PDT) From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: dimensionsw
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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> you seem to be saying that you have compelling reasons
> for saying that it is not anomalous.

I've avoided saying that because I didn't want to expend the effort to defend the assertion as all positive assertions must be defended.

However, in my personal opinion, the compelling reason to doubt alien construction on Mars is the known physics of such things as conservation of momentum which preclude easy inter-stellar travel -- especially for the purpose of building gigantic happy faces on desert planets.  (As opposed to the unbounded unknown which, if evoked, can be used to doubt any compelling reason about any issue.)

Note that "compelling reason" does not equal "absolute certainty."

If it was built a long time ago as a "signal" to us humans, and if it used a human face as a prototype, the creative artist should be reassigned to kitchen duty.

If it used the alien facial characteristics, it was quite a stretch of hope that human faces would evolve along somewhat similar features.
Else the signal would be missed.

And if it was built by an earlier human society, the compelling reason to doubt it is the lack of high tech garbage left behind on earth. :-)


> Is Vicky seen in 3D or in profile?

It's a full body 3D standing figure.  I think we have pictuers from our trip, so I''l try to scan it in and put it on my web-site.  Prepare to be non-impressed. :-)


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -  - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 12:05:48 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry@math.ucla.edu
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 12:02:56 -0700
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu> Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
References: <1.5.4.32.19970709184255.006a7224 atlantic.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"dH-ly2.0.WO4.W2-mp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Kurt Johmann wrote:
> 

> 
> Imaging Cydonia should have the *highest* priority. 

Thats pretty silly. Thats a little like saying the highest priority at a math department should be letter skipping in the Torah. 

The lore surrounding Cydonia is essentially pseudo-scientific hype. It would be fun to image "the face", mainly because of the folk-lore status it has achieved. But to say it should have higher priority over real scientific activities shows a profound lack of understanding of planetary science.

Personally, I do hope they do a high-resolution image of the face from several views---mainly just to educate the public that people like Hoagland should be treated with extreme skepticism.



-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 13:14:33 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:12:14 -0700 Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 14:14:44 -0500
From: Craig Haynie <ccHaynie ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: ccHaynie@ix.netcom.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
References: <1.5.4.32.19970709184255.006a7224 atlantic.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"uwcHv.0.IK7.S2_mp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Kurt Johmann wrote:

> Imaging Cydonia should have the *highest* priority. Instead, Nasa seems
> to want to make excuses about why it may not image the site at all. With
> such an I-don't-want-to-see-the-pictures response from Nasa (like the
> churchmen who refused to look in Gallileo's telescope, afraid at what
> they might see), no wonder people like Hoagland imagine conspiracies to
> explain Nasa's contemptible status-quo monkey-cover-your-eyes attitude.

I don't remember the details...but I saw a senior official of NASA on television this past weekend telling a questioner that NASA has changed its policy and has included the coordinates for 'the Face' and several of the other anomalous objects in Cydonia, in the memory of the Global Surveyor, and should have detailed pictures of the area by next spring.
I subsequently read something similar to this as well. NASA is apparently reversing its position in the wake of popular opinion -- not that they believe there's something to the objects in Cydonia.

Craig Haynie
ccHaynie ix.netcom.com

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 12:36:49 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:34:15 -0700 Date: 09 Jul 97 15:31:49 EDT
From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l@eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Chris said,

>>So I would suppose that Cydonia pictures will at some point become available anyway.<<

The question was posed to Goldin and Huntress in the Aug. 7 ('96) Mars Fossil press conference:

Question:

"Regarding your assertion that you wanted to 'relook' at the priorities for the upcoming Mars missions -- there is a group of scientists, headed by Dr. Stanley McDaniel (sic), that has been asking NASA for some number of years now to rephotograph the Cydonia land forms ['the Face' and 'pyramids'] at a high resolution, and to make this 'rephotography' on the list of top priorities for photographing the Mars surface. In view of the findings announced today, I'm wondering what you would be saying [today] about this question of rephotographing the Cydonia land forms at high resolution... top priority... and in 'real' time."

Answer -- from Dan Goldin, NASA Administrator:

"There can only be so many 'top priorities,' and if everything is #1 priority we'll never get there. We have a much higher-resolution capability with this mission, and I'll ask Wes [Huntress, Associate NASA Administrator for Space Science] to handle the details. We have the mission planned and targeted, and if we have an opportunity to get a picture of what some people think is a Face on Mars' and could have been prior -- not single-celled life but a higher level of life--; if we have a chance to get a higher-resolution picture to see what that is, we will do that. Let me ask Dr. Huntress to talk about our approach."

Answer -- Dr. Wes Huntress, Associate NASA Administrator for Space Science:

"You have to remember that what we are talking about today -- and let me just repeat -- is only potential evidence for early, very microbial life on this planet, not of higher order forms of life later in the history of the planet. So -- there's no direct bearing on whether or not this formation ['the Face'] is the result of civilizations on Mars -- as some would like to believe... (the great majority of the science community believe that's not the case). But, in addition to the lander we're sending later this year [Mars Pathfinder], were also sending an orbiter [Mars Global Surveyor] to begin the geological mapping of the planet in order to, in fact, look for the best places on the planet where we would find evidence of early life on this planet. And we will, in fact, be getting some fairly high-resolution images of various portions of the planet.
Now this [Cydonia] region is NOT a particular target [of Surveyor, or Pathfinder]. But if there is an opportunity to rephotograph it, we certainly will; we're certainly going to get better pictures of it than we got last time."

[end of quote]

If they don't image the Cydonia region, there's gonna be a lot of very pissed taxpayers out there.

Terry

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 13:31:06 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: 09 Jul 97 16:21:43 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Cydonia, SMOTs
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John,

 > And if it was built by an earlier human society, the compelling  > reason to doubt it is the lack of high tech garbage left behind on  > earth. :-)

Certainly I would leave out the ETs for Ockhamist reasons, and your point about earlier human civilisations is compelling.  I'd thought a bit about the 'human' idea, and have a few possible explanations...
with which I won't clog the bandwidth.

Your arguments are interesting, but in strict logic are irrelevant.  If the 'face' is a face, then we need to search for an explanation.  We can't argue that the lack of a clear explanation is proof that something isn't real; that is Dick Blue, not John Logajan!  If it is not a face, we can forget it.

What we need to do is to find out whether the thing IS a face.  We can worry about the explanations or lack of them when and if.  Sadly, I expect it to be nothing when we can see it clearly, and only a few die-hards will still believe.

As I say, the essential problem is to decide when a face is or isn't a face.  Barry may have a point about fractal processing, but I suspect that the human eye will see faces where the fractal method sees exactly nothing - I bet it would see nothing in the angel on Europa.  It might be that fractal methods really do tell us something - and at least they add a certain objectivity.  What intrigues me is that otherwise we seem to have exactly no objective method for deciding!!!!

But ... well, I suppose whatever Surveyor sees, people will argue.  I'm sure you will be mildly interested in its results, just as I am.
Meanwhile it's quite fun, if only for the people-watchers like me.

By the way, I should be able to post my own "Final SMOT Result" tomorrow.  Don't hold your breath.

 > It's a full body 3D standing figure.

No eyeballs then.  Right.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 13:37:08 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:33:54 -0700 X-Sender: johmann@atlantic.net
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 16:33:35 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Kurt Johmann <johmann atlantic.net> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu> writes:

>Kurt Johmann wrote:
>> 
>
>> 
>> Imaging Cydonia should have the *highest* priority. 
>
>Thats pretty silly. Thats a little like saying the highest 
>priority at a math department should be letter skipping 
>in the Torah. 

The analogy you make, although funny, is not valid. The purpose of the camera that will orbit Mars in a few months is to remap Mars by taking higher-quality pictures of the surface. Cydonia is just another surface feature that can be photographed by the camera, so let's photograph it.

For your analogy to work, your math department would have to have as its charter the examination of old texts for meaningful numerological content. Is this the charter for your department? If it is, then it *would* be appropriate for you to examine the Torah for numerological content.

Personally, I'm no believer in the "face" (maybe it is, maybe it isn't: that's why we need better pictures), but at the same time, unlike some people (not necessarily you), I'm not afraid at the prospect of looking at those better pictures.

>The lore surrounding Cydonia is essentially pseudo-scientific
>hype. It would be fun to image "the face", mainly because
>of the folk-lore status it has achieved. But to say it
>should have higher priority over real scientific activities 
>shows a profound lack of understanding of planetary science.
>
>Personally, I do hope they do a high-resolution image of the 
>face from several views---mainly just to educate the public
>that people like Hoagland should be treated with extreme 
>skepticism.

Certainly Hoagland's numerology mumbo-jumbo is probably not worth the paper it's printed on. But I do agree with his attitude that we should get from Nasa better pictures of the "face," and that such imaging should have top priority, and that Nasa should stop putting its head in the sand over this issue.

By the way, Authur C. Clarke got it all wrong with his 2001 story. If his novel's monolith *had* been discovered on the moon, then instead of a big expedition sent to Jupiter to get to the bottom of it, the Establishment would instead be making excuses as to why the monolith is not what it seems to be but instead is something of no interest for which it would be "unscientific" to investigate further. Accusing the astronauts who found the monolith of perpetrating a hoax would be a start in the right direction, don't you think.


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 14:23:30 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:20:43 -0700 Date: 09 Jul 97 17:13:47 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Barry,

 > The lore surrounding Cydonia is essentially pseudo-scientific  > hype.

It may be, but fractal analysis has some measure of objectivity.  I think that any area which is anomalous (and Cydonia *may* be, if only in terms of fractal imaging) is a proper priority target for Surveyor.  Is that wrong?

 > But to say it should have higher priority over real scientific  > activities shows a profound lack of understanding of planetary  > science.

Doesn't that statement show a profound lack of understanding of the proper and correct relationship between the person who pays the piper and the tune he plays?

 > Personally, I do hope they do a high-resolution image of the face  > from several views---mainly just to educate the public that people  > like Hoagland should be treated with extreme skepticism.

Scientists, by and large, get to do work which has real and personal meaning for them.  They are paid (often) from public funds; in other words by ordinary people, many of whom detest their jobs.  Many of these ordinary, tax-paying folk have been thrilled by the Voyager and Mars missions, and that thrill has been some payback for their hard-earned money.  People pay for results, and any group which regards its ultimate funding source in so patronising a manner may find that the barrel may eventually run low.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 14:30:15 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:26:25 -0700 X-Sender: johmann@atlantic.net
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 17:26:15 -0400
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From: Kurt Johmann <johmann atlantic.net> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Craig Haynie <ccHaynie ix.netcom.com> writes:

>Kurt Johmann wrote:
>
>> Imaging Cydonia should have the *highest* priority. Instead, Nasa seems
>> to want to make excuses about why it may not image the site at all. With
>> such an I-don't-want-to-see-the-pictures response from Nasa (like the
>> churchmen who refused to look in Gallileo's telescope, afraid at what
>> they might see), no wonder people like Hoagland imagine conspiracies to
>> explain Nasa's contemptible status-quo monkey-cover-your-eyes attitude.
>
>I don't remember the details...but I saw a senior official of NASA on
>television this past weekend telling a questioner that NASA has changed
>its policy and has included the coordinates for 'the Face' and several
>of the other anomalous objects in Cydonia, in the memory of the Global
>Surveyor, and should have detailed pictures of the area by next spring.
>I subsequently read something similar to this as well. NASA is
>apparently reversing its position in the wake of popular opinion -- not
>that they believe there's something to the objects in Cydonia.

Hmmm... this does sound encouraging. Hope it proves true and we can finally see images that settle this 'face' question.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 15:02:22 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: 09 Jul 97 17:57:46 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Mars face controversy
Resent-Message-ID: <"KzYMd2.0.KP2.De0np" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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To: Vortex

Barry Merriman:

     The lore surrounding Cydonia is essentially pseudo-scientific hype. It
     would be fun to image "the face", mainly because of the folk-lore status
     it has achieved.

The lore may well be pseudo-scientific hype, but the actual scientific analyses have been of excellent quality. This work is obscure, so I doubt that Merriman has had a chance to review it. The analyses are not and cannot be definitive; there is simply not enough data. This is explained in the literature. I do not see how an objective scientist could dismiss this work as "psuedo-science." The technical issues raised in the literature are mostly large over my head, but I recognize rigorous scientific analysis when I see it, and this is it. For one thing, the authors do not reach any definite conclusion, so no skeptic can object. They prove that the Cydonia region has statistically anomalous shapes, not seen in other randomly selected areas of Mars. Therefore it deserves more attention, or at least equal attention with the rest of Mars. How can anyone quarrel with that? Unfortunately NASA has quarreled with it, and in planning future missions it has gone out of its way to avoid further investigation. That policy may now be changing, but McDaniel shows convincingly that NASA's policies regarding this data have been counter-productive, to put it as mildly as I can.

No doubt the unwashed, unscientific folk-lore folks have been spouting absurd pseudo-scientific notions about the face. But the nonsense spouted by scientists who oppose researching it is far worse. The folks are merely silly, the rabid scientific opponents are dangerous.

For more information, see:

S. V. McDaniel, "The McDaniel Report," (North Atlantic Books, 1993)

- Jed

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 17:08:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:59:41 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Crystal delta T thermometer Resent-Message-ID: <"GA6lW3.0.Nt5.3P2np"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 10:19 AM 7/9/97, John Fields wrote:

>
>I don't believe it's _ever_ good practice to remote a crystal, except
>maybe if you're trying to measure the capacitance change of a cable and
>you know precisely the relationship between oscillator output frequency
>and crystal loading capacitance! ;^)
>
>John Fields
>-----------

John,

You sound like you have a bias against using crystals - don't like the other oscillator components close and don't like them far!

No comment on the idea of using the optical fiber length change due to thermal expansion?

Another way to use fiber expansion: you don't even need laser interference pattern etc. if coil is long enough, you can use light pulse delay time shift.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 17:02:02 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:00:13 -0700 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:59:44 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Pd-D2O incubation period
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>Scott:
>
> You really should get that journal.  It is the best
>regard cold fusion for a technical and scientific
>point of view.  If you are serious about this field,
>you will get it.
>
>  Best wishes.
>   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)
>

Gee, even commercials for coming attractions give you more tempting samples than that!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 19:56:05 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:53:00 -0700 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:52:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com (Unverified) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: new zero data = good
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Today we analyzed the data from two overnight zero runs, one conducted with the inlet water held at 20C and another at 40C. During each one, the ambient temp varied from 25-28C.  

A plot of (Tout-Tin) vs (Tdewar-Troom) shows a very satisfactory correlation and provides the necessary function to correct for both the calorimeter's offset and nominal heat leakage.

The new offset function has been "installed" and a new experiment is running tonight.  Details tomorrow.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 21:43:49 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:33:48 -0700 (PDT) From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: dimensionsw
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:32:31 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Message-ID: <"9m4SR3.0.836.YO6np" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) wrote:
>   could you explain what you mean.  Since, I have
> exmamined meteoritic impacts on Mars, Mercury, and 
> the Moon, and have looked at those fractal pics, please
> indicate who you mean by "the author"?, or his purported
> "degrees of freedom"?  What do you mean?

I mean the typical approach is to take an artifact and search for "hits" against an unbounded array of potential patterns.

But now Hogland (the author) takes an unbounded array of potential (fractal) patterns and searches for hits in an arbitrarily large region, finding multiple hits.

I'll note that even on earth there are unique geological areas.

I was just in Bryce Canyon area of Utah and the "hoodoos" as they call them are unlike anything we have here in the midwest.

I was also just listening to the Pathfinder guys, and they suggest that the Martian surface has great variations in geology, from very old undisturbed surfaces (lots of craters) to crater free areas (young geological activity.)

I think this means that a fractal analysis can expect to respond differently in different regions of the Martian surface.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -  - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 21:45:32 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:42:11 -0700 From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Cydonia, SMOTs
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:42:03 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Message-ID: <"_Nd7n2.0.Vt3.XW6np" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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> Your arguments are interesting, but in strict logic are irrelevant.

I think it is very hard, logically, to prove a negative.  That indeed is why we generally have to require advocates of a positive theory to prove their case.

I can't really logically prove that Santa Claus doesn't exist.  There is indeed plenty of evidence in the form of testimony that he does exist.

Never the less, I have compelling reasons to believe he does not exist.  Compelling reason is not equal to absolute proof.

> We can't argue that the lack of a clear explanation is proof that something
> isn't real; that is Dick Blue, not John Logajan!

I think I've studiously avoided using the term "proof" for any of my assertions.

> Sadly, I expect it to be nothing when we can see it clearly, and only a few 
> die-hards will still believe.

I expect it will look like the same face.  If features are missing, the advocates can simply claim erosion.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -  - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 22:00:27 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:57:06 -0700 From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: dimensionsw
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:57:02 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Message-ID: <"4j9MY1.0.ob4.Xk6np" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
>>  However, in my personal opinion, the compelling reason to doubt alien
>>  construction on Mars is the known physics of such things as conservation of
>>  momentum which preclude easy inter-stellar travel
> 
> *We're* here, aren't we? How'd we get here without violating some law of
> physics? Why do you consider that relevant? Ever see the happy faces and
> pyramids and stuff in the deserts here? Mars is right next door.

I should have been more clear.  I was referring to aliens originating outside our solar system.  It is certainly theoretically possible for life to have originated right on the planet Mars, giving rise to Martian societies.

Of course, their evolutionary development time must have been considerably compressed compared to ours -- unless we are transplanted Martians. ;-)


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -  - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  9 22:08:31 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 22:05:24 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 01:05:14 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Fwd: INVERSE SQUARE RULE
Resent-Message-ID: <"AgoCm.0.Aq4.Js6np" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    INVERSE SQUARE RULE
Date:    97-07-10 01:05:14 EDT
From:    HLafonte
To:      freenrg-l eskimo.com

I have a question. If you had 2 lines of force per unit area at one inch from the pole of a magnet, they how many would you have per unit area at .001 inch.
Thanks in advance, 
Butch LaFonte

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 04:01:12 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 03:58:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 06:55:56 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: dimensionsw
References: <3.0.1.32.19970709110249.007536b0 world.std.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"R5gPW1.0.066.c1Cnp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 11:32 PM 7/9/97 -0500, John Logajan wrote:

>Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) wrote:
>>   could you explain what you mean.  Since, I have
>> exmamined meteoritic impacts on Mars, Mercury, and 
>> the Moon, and have looked at those fractal pics, please
>> indicate who you mean by "the author"?, or his purported
>> "degrees of freedom"?  What do you mean?
>
>I mean the typical approach is to take an artifact and search
>for "hits" against an unbounded array of potential patterns.
>
>But now Hogland (the author) takes an unbounded array of
>potential (fractal) patterns and searches for hits in an 
>arbitrarily large region, finding multiple hits.
>

  It was not Hoagland, but Vincent DiPietro and Mark Carlotto.
And many regions were examined, and not only by them.
Did you do any of the imaging yourself?  Have you actually read the papers on this?  or conducted convolution imaging yourself?


========================================================

>I'll note that even on earth there are unique geological areas.


  So what, if they are not a cluster of fractal positive structures.  Are they?


========================================================

>I was just in Bryce Canyon area of Utah and the "hoodoos" as
>they call them are unlike anything we have here in the midwest.
>
>I was also just listening to the Pathfinder guys, and they suggest
>that the Martian surface has great variations in geology, from
>very old undisturbed surfaces (lots of craters) to crater free
>areas (young geological activity.)
>

 First, why dont you ask the hot fusion folks about cold fusion, John?
Second, so what. There is a varying universe out there with galaxies, but that really has nothing to do with the discussion.


========================================================

>I think this means that a fractal analysis can expect to respond
>differently in different regions of the Martian surface.


 Imaging does not depend upon the what is in the object plane.
It is a matter of what is convolved.  Suggest you check this out.

Here too, like with cold fusion, there is a literature; and those that want to get the science had better get the literature.

  Best wishes.
   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 04:01:20 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 03:59:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 06:56:41 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: Cydonia, SMOTs
References: <970709202143_100433.1541_BHG66-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"qG7Md.0.q66.G2Cnp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 11:42 PM 7/9/97 -0500, John Logajan wrote:
>> Sadly, I expect it to be nothing when we can see it clearly, and only a few 
>> die-hards will still believe.
>
>I expect it will look like the same face.  If features are missing, the
>advocates can simply claim erosion.

  John, you sound like the hot-fusioneers on spf.  You apparently did not read all the relevant papers, you attribute who did what incorrectly, you state
incorrect facts about the imaging, and then claim you know what someone can say about a hypothetical event.   Rather than using facts obtained by science (the systematized examination of data with hypotheses being created and tested), you are confusing your own prejudice and fantasies and speculation with what is there.

  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 00:08:08 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:05:49 -0700 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:05:19 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Self compensating fiber delta T probes Resent-Message-ID: <"4wcWg3.0.uG.Cd8np"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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A method proposed here for determining temperature differences using optical fiber is to make two probes P1 and P2 by winding fiber about two cores.  The thermal expansion of the glass that comprises the fibers will increase the travel time for a light pulse.  A light pulse simultaneously sent through each fiber at the same moment will arrive at the end of the warmer fiber first.  The interesting feature of this approach is that there is a convenient means of compensating for test probe lead temperature variations caused by ambient conditions.


The method of compensation involves passing both the fibers to each probe over the same paths, excluding the actual entry into the test probes. This makes the reading more accurate in two ways: (1) Both loops P1 and P2 experience exactly the same thermal conditions at every point except in the probes and (2) the length of fiber in the test leads can be far less than the length of fiber in the probe coils, thus can play a highly diminished role in the delay time.


Here is a represenation of the fiber configuration:


        ---------------------------------------
      /                                        \
     *              Bundle 1                    P1
      \                                        /
        ----------------------------------    |
                                          |   |
                                          |   |  Bundle 2
                                          |   |
                                           \ /
                                            X
                                           / \
                                          |   |
                                          |   |  Bundle 4
                                          |   |
     R1 ----------------------------------    |
     |                                         \
     dT             Bundle 3                    P2
     |                                         /
     R2 ---------------------------------------


    P1 - Probe 1
    P2 - Probe 2
     * - Light pulse source
    R1 - Reads light pulse 1
    R2 - Reads light pulse 2
    dT - circuit to convert arrival time difference to temp

Note that in each path, except at P1 and P2, the fibers for each probe are paired, thus the dime difference due to local ambient tmperature is the same in both sensor paths.  The above fiber configuration could be folded into a T shape for convenience, with each leg of the T having two bundles of 2 fibers each:



                                          -----
                                          |    \
                                          |     P1
                                          |    /
                                          |   |
                                          |   |  4 fibers - Bundle 1 +
                                          |   |        Bundle 2
     *  -----------------------------------   |
            4 fibers - Bundle 1 +             |
                Bundle 4                      |
     R  -----------------------------------   |
                                          |   |   4 fibers - Bundle 3 +
                                          |   |        Bundle 4
                                          |    \
                                          |     P2
                                          |    /
                                          -----

The above is a simplified representation due to my drawing difficulties and fatigue.

Just a little more grist for the mill.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 00:25:17 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:14:11 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: new zero data = good
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At 9:52 PM 7/9/97, Scott Little wrote:
>Today we analyzed the data from two overnight zero runs, one conducted with
>the inlet water held at 20C and another at 40C. During each one, the ambient
>temp varied from 25-28C.
>
>A plot of (Tout-Tin) vs (Tdewar-Troom) shows a very satisfactory correlation
>and provides the necessary function to correct for both the calorimeter's
>offset and nominal heat leakage.
>
>The new offset function has been "installed" and a new experiment is running
>tonight.  Details tomorrow.
>
>
>Scott Little


Congratulations, but darn!  You got my brain all cranked up to think about measuring temperature differentials.  Oh well, sulk, sulk.  8^)  Back to the mundain.  No need to build a watch when you know what time it is.  8^{

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 03:50:47 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 03:48:48 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Speculation etc.
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:48:42 +0000
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To Vortex:

Assuming production of Light Lepton (positive/negative) pairs, for any activity of consequence to occur the positively charged ones must access an electron and perhaps more importantly, the negative ones must access a BARE proton or deuteron. 

In this case the most important role of the aqueous cells would be the production and isolation of the bare protons/deuterons both in the high dielectric water and on the palladium surface. 

Strangely enough the poisoning effect of high Z materials (cations) bears a striking resemblance to the poisoning effects of high Z materials in Hot Fusion plasmas.  :-)

For this reason a personal preference would be to create very low temperature (1-2 ev) plasmas using lithium hydride-lithium deuteride the materials of choice in Hydrogen Bombs, :-) perhaps on hot refractory metal, or metal oxide, or carbide surfaces?

Regards,     Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 05:37:51 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 05:34:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Carbon Lithium Hydrogen Arc for "CF" Experiment.
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 12:32:24 +0000
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To Vortex:

With a low voltage high current arc between a carbon anode and a lithium-coated carbon cathode in a chamber pressurized with hydrogen/deuterium, the arc should run at about 1/3 the 6.0 volt ionization potential of the lithium.

This Might allow production of "light leptons" from the copius amount of photons (up to 6.0 ev)produced. Subsequent production of neutral particles from absorption of the leptons (+/-) by the electrons and protons/deuterons, followed by absorption of these by the lithium, might get some interesting "warm" fusion reactions along with some helium. (p + Li-7 = 2 He-4 + 17.6 Mev). The arc should be at about 3,000  deg K.

Except for the lithium, hydrogen and pressure chamber all the supplies are available from a welders supply house. 

Knowing what you got will take a bit more effort.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 06:23:23 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 06:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 05:07:08 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Self compensating fiber delta T probes Resent-Message-ID: <"UsisP2.0.i11.VxDnp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 11:05 PM 7/9/97, Horace Heffner wrote:
>A method proposed here for determining temperature differences using
>optical fiber is to make two probes P1 and P2 by winding fiber about two
>cores.  The thermal expansion of the glass that comprises the fibers will
>increase the travel time for a light pulse.  A light pulse simultaneously
>sent through each fiber at the same moment will arrive at the end of the
>warmer fiber first.  The interesting feature of this approach is that there  *****

>is a convenient means of compensating for test probe lead temperature
>variations caused by ambient conditions.
>
[snip]

Oops, random brain check! The above should say "A light pulse simultaneously sent through each fiber at the same moment will arrive at the end of the *cooler* fiber first."  Cooler means shorter, skinnier, except in the arctic where cooler weather generally causes one to be fatter.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 06:24:06 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 06:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:09:19 -0500 (CDT) From: John Fields <starship@fc.net>
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On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Horace Heffner wrote:

> John,
> 
> You sound like you have a bias against using crystals - don't like the
> other oscillator components close and don't like them far!

Not at all! 
It's just that, in my opinion, the use of a crystal thermometer in Scott's application would create more problems than it would solve.
If you think not, I would be interested in seeing any hard data you might have which would indicate otherwise.

> No comment on the idea of using the optical fiber length change due to
> thermal expansion?
> 
> Another way to use fiber expansion: you don't even need laser interference
> pattern etc. if coil is long enough, you can use light pulse delay time
> shift.

Any/all of these ideas are good as starting points, but may be fraught with problems which will not come to light until a design is undertaken.

For example, have you considered the effect on the velocity of propagation of light in the fiber as a function of temperature?

How about the effect of temperature gradients on the long coil?

Having been bitten more than once, I personally believe in the kiss principle and will try to use the least complex solution available to adequately solve the problem at hand. 

John 
----

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 06:23:57 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 06:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: 10 Jul 97 09:09:25 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: dimensionsw
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To: Vortex

John Logajan writes:

     I'll note that even on earth there are unique geological areas. . . . I
     was just in Bryce Canyon area of Utah and the "hoodoos" as they call
     them are unlike anything we have here in the midwest.

     I was also just listening to the Pathfinder guys, and they suggest that
     the Martian surface has great variations in geology . . .

Yes, it is fascinating, isn't it? I love those daily briefings, featuring sweating enthusiastic engineers dressed in T-shirts. Television at its best!


     I think this means that a fractal analysis can expect to respond
     differently in different regions of the Martian surface.

I think so too. But areas that show unusually high symmetry or unusual appearance are surely interesting, aren't they? Even if the "face" is a natural phenomenon, it is remarkable in its own right. On earth, such geological features often indicate something unusual, like a circle left by a meteor strike, or the sheer cliffs and deep lakes of upstate New York that were cut by glaciers. An alien surveying the earth would pay special attention to such things, I suppose.

- Jed

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 06:37:53 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 06:25:46 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:24:13 -0500 (CDT) From: John Fields <starship@fc.net>
Subject: Re: Self compensating fiber delta T probes To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Horace Heffner wrote:

> A method proposed here for determining temperature differences using
> optical fiber is to make two probes P1 and P2 by winding fiber about two
> cores.  The thermal expansion of the glass that comprises the fibers will
> increase the travel time for a light pulse.  A light pulse simultaneously
> sent through each fiber at the same moment will arrive at the end of the
> warmer fiber first.  The interesting feature of this approach is that there
> is a convenient means of compensating for test probe lead temperature
> variations caused by ambient conditions.

snip...

Assuming C doesn't increase with temperature in a way which would overcome the increase in length of the fiber, wouldn't the light pulse get to the end of the warmer fiber last?

John Fields
-----------

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 10:03:36 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:54:05 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Crystal delta T thermometer Resent-Message-ID: <"ZHIsm3.0.sa.MGHnp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 8:09 AM 7/10/97, John Fields wrote:
[snip]

>It's just that, in my opinion, the use of a crystal thermometer in
>Scott's application would create more problems than it would solve.
>If you think not, I would be interested in seeing any hard data you might
>have which would indicate otherwise.

Scott's frustrations with doing accurate temperature measurements for calorimetry are not a new kind of problem to cold fusion research. The archives of sci.physics.fusion contain hundreds of posts over the years of debates, concerns, jibes, cajoles, invective, vituperation, and profanity and maybe even slander regarding the issues of measurement and thermal mixing.  Finding a good reliable, unassailable, and cheap as possible a method for measuring delta T would be a significant step forward for CF research.  Finding a definitve method is certainly worth some thinking and discussion from a general standpoint, in addition to relating to the problem as Scott posed it.


>
>For example, have you considered the effect on the velocity of
>propagation of light in the fiber as a function of temperature?

That and other issues are the point of calibration. The key is consistency - and I think that base is fairly well covered with present fiber and time counting technology.


>
>How about the effect of temperature gradients on the long coil?

A longer coil has the advantage of averaging gradients due to mixing problems.  By winding the fiber onto a PTFE coated thin metal tube the averaging can be improved.  By inserting various kinds of metallic rods or tubes in inside the tube the time constant can be manipulated.  If think measuring temperaure at a small point is a far more egregious problem in that it is susceptable to mixing problems and thermal noise. Since, in flowing calorimetry, the inlet and outlet temperature are the main concerns, and the measuring point need not be immediately in the exit port if good insulation is provided around the tubing, that the bigger issue should be providing good insulation about the inlet and outlet tubing and the measuring stations, possibly including active thermal control outside the insulation to avoid any loss at all through the insulation due to matching the internal temperature.


>
>Having been bitten more than once, I personally believe in the kiss
>principle and will try to use the least complex solution available to
>adequately solve the problem at hand.
>
>John
>----

Yes. KISS unless it fails,then find a better way. The important thing is the looking. By the KISS princple we should use long mercury thermometers (which are good for backup anyway) but they have their problems as well, including thermal wicking, susceptibility to mixing problems and dead zones, lack of accuracy and lack of the ability to automatically capture and record the data.  On the other hand, mercury thermometers are truly simple and work completely on first principles.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 09:58:50 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:54:44 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:54:10 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Self compensating fiber delta T probes Resent-Message-ID: <"Hkpbu3.0.Cj1.JFHnp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 8:24 AM 7/10/97, John Fields wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>> A method proposed here for determining temperature differences using
>> optical fiber is to make two probes P1 and P2 by winding fiber about two
>> cores.  The thermal expansion of the glass that comprises the fibers will
>> increase the travel time for a light pulse.  A light pulse simultaneously
>> sent through each fiber at the same moment will arrive at the end of the
>> warmer fiber first.  The interesting feature of this approach is that there
>> is a convenient means of compensating for test probe lead temperature
>> variations caused by ambient conditions.
>
>snip...
>
>Assuming C doesn't increase with temperature in a way which would
>overcome the increase in length of the fiber, wouldn't the light
>pulse get to the end of the warmer fiber last?
>
>John Fields
>-----------

Yes, as I posted 17 min. before you wrote this. It probably didn't get to you, or maybe you reply to messages one at a time like I do.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 10:23:46 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:17:33 -0700 Sender: barry@math.ucla.edu
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:17:24 -0700
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu> Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Crystal delta T thermometer References: <v01530500afeab777bfee [199.237.131.241]> Resent-Message-ID: <"vSsjj.0.Hf2.haHnp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> 

> 
> Scott's frustrations with doing accurate temperature measurements for
> calorimetry are not a new kind of problem to cold fusion research.
> ... Finding a definitve method is certainly worth some thinking 

Beg to differ. Accurate temperature measurements are a minor problem in CF research---the real problem is that the device Scott is testing does not "work". A byproduct of the fact the the device does not work is that Scott has plenty of time on his hands to observe minute fluctations in his system parameters. But to fixate on this is to lose the forrest for the trees...


-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 10:53:06 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:44:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: johmann@atlantic.net
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:43:29 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Kurt Johmann <johmann atlantic.net> Subject: Re: Cydonia, SMOTs
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Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> writes:

>At 11:42 PM 7/9/97 -0500, John Logajan wrote:
>>Sadly, I expect it to be nothing when we can see it clearly, and only
>>a few die-hards will still believe.
>>
>>I expect it will look like the same face.  If features are missing, the
>>advocates can simply claim erosion.
>
>John, you sound like the hot-fusioneers on spf. You apparently did not
>read all the relevant papers, you attribute who did what incorrectly, you
>state incorrect facts about the imaging, and then claim you know what
>someone can say about a hypothetical event. Rather than using facts
>obtained by science (the systematized examination of data with hypotheses
>being created and tested), you are confusing your own prejudice and
>fantasies and speculation with what is there.

IMO, you have caught Logajan red-handed here.

In an earlier post, John Logajan has openly admitted that he is biased to believe that the "face" is nothing but a simulacrum because he cannot imagine a credible explanation as to how the "face" can be artificial. In other words, he mistakes his apparent poverty of understanding as a reliable arbiter of the "face" issue.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 10:55:38 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:52:30 -0700 From: Puthoff@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:51:31 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Single-Crystal Pd?
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Gnorts,

A question that shows my naivete wrt CF history, but has anyone tried single-crystal palladium in electrolysis experiments, expensive though it may be?

Hal Puthoff

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 11:31:39 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry@math.ucla.edu
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:25:17 -0700
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu> Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Single-Crystal Pd?
References: <970710135130_-1460867928 emout06.mail.aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"GUKsF.0.JK3.MbInp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Puthoff aol.com wrote:
> 
> Gnorts,
> 
> A question that shows my naivete wrt CF history, but has anyone tried
> single-crystal palladium in electrolysis experiments, expensive though it may
> be?
> 
> Hal Puthoff

If I recall, the work done at the Bose corp. went so far as to use single Pd crystals, specially grown for them, to no avail. You could probably find their report on Dieter's bibliofile.
And yes, the single crystal is quite expensive---my Alfa-Aesar lists Pd crystals at $3000--$7000---but Bose is a pretty wealthy company/guy. 

----------------
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 11:48:34 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: 10 Jul 97 14:34:21 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Temperature discussion a canard Resent-Message-ID: <"wjS5Q1.0.Ok3.FlInp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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To: Vortex

Horace Heffner writes:

     Scott's frustrations with doing accurate temperature measurements for
     calorimetry are not a new kind of problem to cold fusion research. The
     archives of sci.physics.fusion contain hundreds of posts over the years
     of debates, concerns, jibes, cajoles, invective, vituperation, and
     profanity and maybe even slander regarding the issues of measurement and
     thermal mixing.

That is true, but the entire discussion has been a canard, from start to finish. These are non-issues. When you use the proper equipment and you follow textbook methods, these problems never arise. I mean never: Full Stop. Period!
The discussions have leaked here from time to time, along with absurd theories about vertical versus horizontal flow calorimetry and the like.

Frankly, I think Scott Little is wasting his time trying to achieve the high levels of precision he says he wants. I see no reason for these levels. They will not serve any scientific purpose that I know of. But if he feels he must have them, he should do what SRI and the NHE did to achieve fantastic levels of precision: spend money. Lots of money. Get a catalog from Hewlett Packard, get the 1000+ page Temperature Handbook catalog from Omega, and get out your credit card.

Why anyone does that, I'll never understand. It seems to me that every goal in the experiment can met with off-the-shelf, cheap, reliable 0.1 dec C precision, but if you insist you can go to 0.01 deg C, or 0.001 C. Every order of magnitude increase beyond a tenth degree increases the cost by roughly an order of magnitude. It also it increases complexity and the number of things that can go wrong. I cannot imagine why anyone wants to make such trouble for themselves, but it is easy to do. You can spend $100,000 for your thermocouple arrays and maybe push precision down to 0.0001 deg C. You will not add any credibility to the experiment. The skeptics will not believe the results, even if you show a 21.0241 deg C Delta T. You could add 10 more digits, and you can use every six different thermometers representing every common type (thermometers, thermistors, thermocouples), which is what I have done on occasion. They still will not believe a word of it.

Suppose I give you a choice. I give you a 5 deg C Delta T measured with an exotic, finicky, ultra precise 0.001 deg C Hewlett gadget; or an $820 Monogram MDSS41-TC with 0.2 deg C accuracy and 0.01 resolution (Omega, p. M-8 - nifty!); or a pair of $50 mercury thermometers; or an Omega Model HH22 Microprocessor Thermometer. Which numbers should you believe? Which instrument is best? Answer: all of the above. It does not make any conceivable difference. These devices are know to measure such large temperature differences with absolute, unshakable confidence, as long as you take ordinary precautions to calibrate and check for bubbles in the mercury. Arguing that one is better than the other is like arguing about which ruler is best for measuring 10 cm to the nearest centimeter. (As a matter of fact, I have checked a number of rulers out of curiosity, and I find the cheap wooden ones from Woolworth can be as much as 1 mm wrong per 10 cm.) When it comes to measuring 5 deg C, the only instrument I would not believe would be a one-of-a-kind, hand-made, custom designed crystal oscillating rig, like the ones being discussed here. I would not know what to make of that. That would be an experiment in thermometry, not cold fusion.

Trying to improve mensuration beyond off-the-shelf laboratory standards is a counter productive waste of time. Once you achieve ordinary levels you should concentrate on boosting the signal by getting a strong CF reaction. Get more heat and a bigger input to output ratio. That is the only result that will convince people.

In the Ragland replication, Chris Tinsley had to struggle to achieve ordinary 0.1 deg precision. But that is because he is working on a shoestring, and because the Ragland cell was poorly designed for temperature measurements.
Chris had to use gravity feed instead of a precision pump, 'cause gravity does not cost anything and it never wears out. If you must scrimp for every penny then you have to use innovative techniques. People who can afford proper lab equipment should simply buy it and use it by the book. The nutcase skeptics will attack them, but no legitimate scientist  will find any reason to doubt their results. I do not know how Scott Little's bank account stands. Maybe he is broke too, and he must use innovative methods for that reason.

I do not understand why the people in this forum want to reinvent the wheel and devise new ways to measure temperature, of all things. Do you not realize that the Geogia Tech library has a room full of books on this subject? If you want to know Gobs and Gobs about measuring temperature, have a look at Appendix Z in the Iomega handbook (225 pages). See:

     B. W. Banum, G. T. Furukawa, "Guidelines for Realizing the ITS-90,"
     (National Institute of Standards and Technology), 28 pages, 105
     footnotes

     H. Preston-Thomas, "The International Temperature Scale of 1990
     (ITS-90)," Metrologia, (Springer-Verlag, 1990), 8 pages, 8 item Appendix

     Practical Guidelines for Temperature Measurement, Iomega Corp., 5 pages

- Jed

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 13:01:48 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 12:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:15:18 -0500 (GMT) From: Carlos Henry Castano <chcastan@perseus.unalmed.edu.co> Reply-To: Carlos Henry Castano <chcastan@perseus.unalmed.edu.co> To: Carlos Henry Castano <chcastan@perseus.unalmed.edu.co> Cc: grupo de discusion <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: Question about of niquel.
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Good afternoon,

I'm trying to start a reaction excess of heat in K2CO3 and H2O with cathode of Nickel Fibrex TM (niquel sponge of National Standard), I was reading several things about of the pretreatment of niquel, for example:

J. Farrel in 1991 says, "...The Ni Should be clean. Handle the Ni With cotton or plastics gloves. do NOT clean the Ni nitric acid or organic solvents."
and electyropolixh the Ni cathode for about half an hour to an hour (Ni as the anode and the Pt as the cathode).

J. Rottwell (in ICCF5 Highligts, about of Piandelli works) "... cleaning the surface (how?), removing impurities, checking for and in some cases eliminating cracks and other deformities by sanding, etching or scaling the surface..."
and put the nickel piece en a magnetic field (how?) and trigger the reaction with a capacitor (how?)

can anyone give me some recomendations of advise?, very thanks a lot for your time and your help.

Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo.
Lab. Electroquimica
Universidad Nacional de Colombia.

_________________________________________________________________________ My actual E-mail is dinamic but temporal, I have other permanent E-mail, if you e-mail rebound please try again to:  chcastan hotmail.com ________________________________	    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 14:02:36 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:58:34 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:58:21 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little <little@eden.com>
Subject: Re: Crystal delta T thermometer Resent-Message-ID: <"zBAhY3.0.d64.vpKnp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 10:17 7/10/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote:

>Beg to differ. Accurate temperature measurements are a minor 
>problem in CF research---the real problem is that the device
>Scott is testing does not "work".

Barry's got a good point, here.  When my present system is "bad" it's still within 5% of the correct value.  If I had the kind of excess heat that Ragland observed you'd hear nothing more about these small discrepancies.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 18:45:40 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:43:02 -0700 X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:41:06 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: Cydonia, SMOTs
References: <3.0.1.32.19970710065641.0077f280 world.std.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"nreau.0.kl.a-Onp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 05:40 PM 7/10/97 -0500, John Logajan wrote:
>>   John, you sound like the hot-fusioneers on spf.
>
>Thanks.  I always liked Bogdan Maglich's Migma and Paul Koloc's Plasmak.

  I was not talking about them, and you know it.

  ===============================================


>> You apparently did not read all the relevant papers,
>
>Quite right.  I have never read a paper on numerology.

   We are NOT talking about those papers as you are well aware.  
 
   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 15:47:30 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:41:39 -0700 (PDT) From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Cydonia, SMOTs
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:40:23 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Message-ID: <"zR3QW2.0.674.VKMnp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) wrote:
>   John, you sound like the hot-fusioneers on spf.

Thanks.  I always liked Bogdan Maglich's Migma and Paul Koloc's Plasmak.

> You apparently did not read all the relevant papers,

Quite right.  I have never read a paper on numerology.

> you are confusing your own prejudice and fantasies

No confusion.  I've stated the basis of my prejudices.

As far as my fantasies, they are less of Martian bodies than earthly bodies -- but heavenly nonetheless. :-)

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -  - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 15:52:53 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:49:34 -0700 From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: Cydonia, SMOTs
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:49:22 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Message-ID: <"jmhGd3.0.I52.zRMnp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Kurt Johmann wrote: 
> IMO, you have caught Logajan red-handed here.

I feel I've been "outted." :-)

> In an earlier post, John Logajan has openly admitted that he is biased to
> believe that the "face" is nothing but a simulacrum because he cannot
> imagine a credible explanation as to how the "face" can be artificial. In
> other words, he mistakes his apparent poverty of understanding as a
> reliable arbiter of the "face" issue.

I contend that no human is capable of doing more than working to the limits of his knowledge of what is credible or incredible.  It is the burden of new sciences that they must educate us underacheivers of their true wonders.

I'm sure that even the advocates of Cydonia admit that fractal analysis cannot be 100% conclusive that the features are artifical rather than geological.  I just happend to be biased by previous experience to believe it is closer to 0%.  It's just a matter of degree. :-)

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -  - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 16:16:45 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:02:41 -0600 (MDT) From: "John R. Tooker" <jrtooker@freenet.calgary.ab.ca> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Vortex <vortex-l mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
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On 10 Jul 1997, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> 
> To: Vortex
> 
> John Logajan writes:
> 
>      I'll note that even on earth there are unique geological areas. . . . I
>      was just in Bryce Canyon area of Utah and the "hoodoos" as they call
>      them are unlike anything we have here in the midwest.
I know the feeling! Calgary is literally plopped down in the middle of *several* areas. We have semi arid deserts to the NE, complete with many hoodoos. To the east we have praries that would make a Tesla pancake coil seem mountainous. We're right on top of foothills, and we have gorgeous jagged mountains to the west. Not to mention vortices galore. 
Has anyone considered the possibility that the face on mars *may* be a natural phenomenon that *may* have been "polished and refined" by some temporary visitors, in the way that terran landscapers might work with the lay of the land, say in a park, to make an area look "natural" with artificial means? Just a thought.
John

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 16:35:24 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:32:15 -0700 Date: 10 Jul 97 19:30:17 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Crystal delta T thermometer Resent-Message-ID: <"-ziaF1.0.XS3.-3Nnp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Barry,

 > Beg to differ. Accurate temperature measurements are a minor  > problem in CF research---the real problem is that the device Scott  > is testing does not "work". A byproduct of the fact the the device  > does not work is that Scott has plenty of time on his hands to  > observe minute fluctations in his system parameters. But to fixate  > on this is to lose the forrest for the trees...

I entirely agree with you.  Ragland says his cells have given as thermal energy a substantial multiple of input V*I, and that he has had two boil-offs.  My own calorimetry was much less accurate than Soctt's, but it ws perfectly capable of resolving 100mW.  Straight temp (cell and enclosure) is easy, and was calibrated against a mercury and a good digital.  Delta-T is less easy, but both thermistors were at the same level, and had been calibrated *together* across the relevant range (for which appropriate hi-stab resistors were chosen) such that for each thermistor calibration points were found at which the digital thermometer and the d/a converter both jumped a digit as they went through the same temp.  This is easy if the rate of temp change in the calibration bath is very low and quite a few readings are taken for each 0.1C change - the resultant graphs show the 'step points' clearly.

In fact, the thermistors were virtually identical.  Even so, it was nice to produce the best possible look-up curves for the software to use. 
And, with that kind of accuracy, the question of whether the flow calorimeter was or was not seeing anything anomalous became utterly certain, provided that anomaly was above 100mW - a small value in proportion to the several watts of Joule heating!

We also arranged to have standard (cross-calibrated) steel-encased thermometer probes watching the inlet and outlet temps.  That gave us a continual visible indication of the delta-T.  OK, the two thermometers differed by about 0.15C, but even they would have told us immediately of anything anomalous was happening.  (By the way, the inlet thermometer was upstream of the inlet thermistor, and the outlet one was downstream of the outlet thermistor.)

I am impressed by Scott's equipment, but the simple fact is that any excess which would be invisible to my calorimeter is not of any practical interest, and would in any case be argued to be some artefact. 
So I would say that I just don't see the point of it all.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 16:35:22 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: 10 Jul 97 19:30:18 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Cydonia, SMOTs
Resent-Message-ID: <"B75Xt1.0.6c5.w4Nnp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Kurt,

 > IMO, you have caught Logajan red-handed here.

Yes, but some of us want to break that news *gently* to him!

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 18:56:53 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:54:20 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:53:50 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Crystal delta T thermometer Resent-Message-ID: <"5YrTR3.0.0C1.B9Pnp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 7:30 PM 7/10/97, Chris Tinsley wrote: [snip]
>
>I am impressed by Scott's equipment, but the simple fact is that any
>excess which would be invisible to my calorimeter is not of any
>practical interest, and would in any case be argued to be some artefact.
>So I would say that I just don't see the point of it all.
>
>Chris

Personally,  I think you guys have been lulled into some kind of bliss by the tranquility of vortex.  Just because you all post your same old opinions without massive objection (rejection) here dosn't make the old s.p.f arguments go away.  Posting your old arguments here does not mean there were none or will be none if a positive result is achieved.   Almost every report on s.p.f was attacked based on calorimetry (what else was there)?  That means flow or temperature measurement.  What else is there to flowing calorimetry?  M dot delta T vs I*V. Pretty simple huh?  Yet millions have been spent on it.

I do agree with Barry's assesment in this particular case though.

OK, I'll let it drop (again), even if I do think the fiber differential thermometer is a great idea.  Sulk, sulk. 8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 19:46:07 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:44:30 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:45:09 -0400
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net> Organization: NASA (Retired)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cydonia, SMOTs
References: <m0wmS1a-0001rhC mirage.skypoint.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"zSlT92.0.yn2.DuPnp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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John Logajan wrote:
> 
(snip)
> 
> I'm sure that even the advocates of Cydonia admit that fractal analysis
> cannot be 100% conclusive that the features are artifical rather than
> geological.

John, I wonder what a fractal analysis would do on the side of "Devil's Tower" - from what I've seen in pictures, at some locations, the vertical column structures make it seem that you're standing in front of the First Federal Bank of anywhere.  

After reading Analog SF for 30 years I think I'm up on most any plot about the Martian surface my imagination needs.  But, it seems to this layman that you need to get up close to Mars features to detect tooling marks, etc. to really determine if they are artifacts of ETs or not.
Hey, it may not be very long till we are and we do!

Till then, daydreams are nice.

Frank Stenger

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 10 19:51:18 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:49:56 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:49:28 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Cranky?
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Anyone notice how cranky this list gets when negative results are reported?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 05:56:14 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 05:53:53 -0700 X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:51:57 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re:  Codeposition of Pd & D
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At 08:22 AM 7/11/97 -0400, Tom wrote:
>
>  Do you know if Szpak is still interested in this?
>
>Tom Stolper
>
>

  
  One of his more recent papers will shortly be in a section on cold fusion at the IECEC-97 [32nd Intersociety Energy Conversion Engineering] Conference.
 The IECEC provides a forum to present and discuss engineering aspects of energy conversion, advanced energy conversion systems and devices, energy utilization and efficiency, environmental issues, and policy impacts on the research, development and implementation of energy systems. 
The IECEC is sponsored by six participating societies: the AIChE, the American Nuclear Society (ANS), the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), the
American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA), the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME), and the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE). 


  Session 77:  Innovative Concepts III - Cold Fusion Results 97120 --------------------------------------------------

"Thermal and Nuclear Events Associated with the Pd+D Codeposition" S. Szpak and P.A. Mosier-Boss

  Best wishes.
   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)

  

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 15:00:01 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:53:33 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:26:08 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Isotopic Ratios Prove ET Origin?
References: <Pine.UW2.3.95.970708022611.17132G-100000 november> <9707081000.ZM8058@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> <33C68F60.1DAD@skylink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"8L7-23.0.XX6.Sjgnp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Robert Stirniman wrote:
 
> A presentation was made at Roswell on July 4, which claims
> to provide physical evidence of extra-terrestrially manufactured
> material. The claim is based primarily on the existence of
> isotopic ratios which are different than the "natural" amounts
> found in our solar system.

> This material is allegedly from the Roswell crash, and was in the
> possession of a witness for 50 years. The object appears to be
> manufactured. It is about 1.5 inches in size and is composed
> mostly of silicon.  The material is black and has a curvature of
> two levels on the frontal surface. One side of the material shows
> temperature discoloration from exposure to extreme heat.
> 
>  Isotope        Natural Abundance   Found in
>                 on Earth            Debris Sample
> 
>  Silicon-28     92.18               26.55
>  Silicon-29     4.71                43.28
>  Silicon-30     3.12                30.16
> 
>  Germanium-70   20.52                 0
>  Germanium-72   27.43               94.46
>  Germanium-73   7.76                 3.28
>  Germanium-74   36.54                2.11
>  Germanium-75   0                    0.11
>  Germanium-76   7.76                 0.04

Most important is the validity of the analysis made on the object. Can we trust this data come from a real analysis? If this analysis is real we can assume that the object is not manufactured on Earth, because nobody will spend money to create proof on such a controversial subject.
Specially to get 0% of Ge-70 and 0.04% of Ge-76 may be very expensive to achieve with our technology. 

It will be necessary to read the full analysis report. It may give many more clues. Generally when most efforts made for proofing, the right scientific procedures about the research are not well done because the pressure, and restrict the research in one area. This way may the most important of features of the research object may be missed. Anyway, it is interesting coincidence to found both Si and Ge together.

Regards,

Hamdi Ucar

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 05:25:45 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 05:23:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper@aol.com
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:22:04 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Codeposition of Pd & D
Resent-Message-ID: <"-pxVF2.0.4R.6NYnp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Mitchell,

Congratulations on your forthcoming article, "Codeposition of Palladium and Deuterium," in Fusion Technology, Vol. 32, No. 1 (August 1997).

S. Szpak, et al., reported good preliminary results with codeposition, including XSH, in their 1991 article, "On the behavior of Pd deposited in the presence of evolving deuterium," Journal of Electroanalytical Chemistry, Vol.
302, pp. 255-260.

Have you had any discussions with Szpak or his colleagues?  Do you know if Szpak is still interested in this?

Tom Stolper

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 13:03:09 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:54:08 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Isotopic Ratios Prove ET Origin?
References: <Pine.UW2.3.95.970708022611.17132G-100000 november> <9707081000.ZM8058@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"qzmrp.0.wH6.E1fnp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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A presentation was made at Roswell on July 4, which claims to provide physical evidence of extra-terrestrially manufactured material. The claim is based primarily on the existence of isotopic ratios which are different than the "natural" amounts found in our solar system.  

This material is allegedly from the Roswell crash, and was in the possession of a witness for 50 years. The object appears to be manufactured. It is about 1.5 inches in size and is composed mostly of silicon.  The material is black and has a curvature of two levels on the frontal surface. One side of the material shows temperature discoloration from exposure to extreme heat.

 Isotope        Natural Abundance   Found in 
                on Earth            Debris Sample

 Silicon-28     92.18               26.55  Silicon-29     4.71                43.28  Silicon-30     3.12                30.16

 Germanium-70   20.52                 0  Germanium-72   27.43               94.46  Germanium-73   7.76                 3.28  Germanium-74   36.54                2.11  Germanium-75   0                    0.11  Germanium-76   7.76                 0.04

Any thoughts about why this may or may not be evidence of extra-terrestrial origin?

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 14:03:38 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:56:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:48:30 -0500
References: <Pine.UW2.3.95.970708022611.17132G-100000 november> 
	<9707081000.ZM8058 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> 
	<33C68F60.1DAD skylink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Isotopic Ratios Prove ET Origin?
Resent-Message-ID: <"7rqpq3.0.eV.Lufnp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Jul 11,  2:50pm, Robert Stirniman wrote:

> Any thoughts about why this may or may not be
> evidence of extra-terrestrial origin?

A lot of trouble for someone to manufacture, but many people, governments, and organizations through history have had a lot of time and money on their hands.
 <g>  If it is of unknown origin, it proves what?  Only that we don't know where it came from.  Alien?  Why must we always attach supernatural aspects to everything we don't immediately understand?  I think we are clever enough as a species not to have some diety, or off world culture to account for our advancements.  I wont categorically deny the possibility, but I don't see it as probable.  Just as in good a murder case you need hard evidence, a motive, and a body to successfully prove anything.  You eliminate one of the three and your case is in reasonable doubt.  As far as I see it, we've got a few eye witnesses, maybe some crime scene evidence, but nothing solid enough to necessarily jump to an extra-terrestrial hypothesis.  After all's said and done, could simply be debris from stealth technology research.  Nah, too crazy....why would that be found near a known former top secret test facility for military aircraft.....

Either way, this is definitely the wrong forum for this discussion!  'nuff said.



-- 
Quote of the Day:  Success is the child of audacity.   -Benjamin Disraeli --
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 14:05:15 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:55:24 -0700 Date: 11 Jul 97 16:52:28 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Isotopic Ratios Prove ET Origin?
Resent-Message-ID: <"PrMC23.0.t34.xsfnp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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To: Vortex

Robert Stirniman writes:

          A presentation was made at Roswell on July 4, which claims to provide
     physical evidence of extra-terrestrially manufactured material. The
     claim is based primarily on the existence of isotopic ratios which are
     different than the "natural" amounts found in our solar system.

It seems to me there is great confusion about this claim, on both sides of the debate. If the findings hold up (a big if!) I think they prove the material is extra-terrestrial, but I do not understand why anyone says that unnatural isotopic ratios prove the material is from another solar system. The laws of physics that govern these ratios are supposed to apply to the entire universe, not just our solar system or galaxy. Therefore, if the ratios are unnatural, that proves nothing about the place of origin. It proves that the object was manufactured by someone who deliberately changed the isotopic ratio of the raw material for some reason. Maybe the builder was playing a practical joke, or perhaps he found that a particular mixture of isotopes produces more strength, better conductivity, or some other desirable quality. Ron Brightsen believes that isotopes have radically different properties, and that someday advanced metallurgy will be based on precise mixtures of isotopes, not just elements.

The isotopes tell us nothing about the geographic origin of the material, but -- assuming these findings hold up -- I think this does suggest that the material was not produced by human beings here on earth. I believe it would cost a great deal of money and expertise to mix macroscopic levels of peculiar elements in chemicals, and then to fabricate smooth, mass-produced, precision parts with it. I do not think that a hoaxer would be capable of doing this, and I cannot imagine why any government or large corporation would do it.
There are no a non-human races on earth capable of this level of technology; we would have seen them. You cannot hide a civilization capable of such work.
So the material must have come from somewhere else, but it might be in the solar system, which we have hardly begun to explore.

- Jed

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 14:26:03 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:15:42 -0700 Date: 11 Jul 97 17:14:20 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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Jed,

 > Yes, it is fascinating, isn't it? I love those daily briefings,  > featuring sweating enthusiastic engineers dressed in T-shirts.
 > Television at its best!

Well, I thought that dark suits and an air of restrained approval might have been more appropriate.  One particular pair of shorts and associated braces [suspenders] was especially unfortunate.  And a tight-lipped, "Well done, chaps," would have sufficed.

Today's Daily Telegraph points out the extra 37 minutes of the Martian 'sol' is taking its toll on some researchers, who are bound to keep to a Martian cycle.  Apparently the effects are so severe that some of the scientists have even been heard to laugh at the engineers' jokes.  This is indeed a worrying development.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 14:31:51 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: 11 Jul 97 17:14:21 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Puzzled of Nottingham
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Horace,

>I am impressed by Scott's equipment, but the simple fact is that any
>excess which would be invisible to my calorimeter is not of any
>practical interest, and would in any case be argued to be some artefact.
>So I would say that I just don't see the point of it all.
>
>Chris

You wrote:

"Personally,  I think you guys have been lulled into some kind of bliss by the tranquility of vortex.  Just because you all post your same old opinions without massive objection (rejection) here dosn't make the old s.p.f arguments go away.  Posting your old arguments here does not mean there were none or will be none if a positive result is achieved.  
Almost every report on s.p.f was attacked based on calorimetry (what else was there)?  That means flow or temperature measurement.  What else is there to flowing calorimetry?  M dot delta T vs I*V. Pretty simple huh?  Yet millions have been spent on it."

I'm probably being unusually dense today, but can you show any relationship between my comment and your response?

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 15:34:16 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:15:57 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Isotopic Ratios Prove ET Origin?
References: <970711205228_72240.1256_EHB115-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"sNDHD2.0.ar3.WIhnp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
<...>
> 
> It seems to me there is great confusion about this claim, on both
> sides of the debate. If the findings hold up (a big if!) I think they
> prove the material is extra-terrestrial, but I do not understand why
> anyone says that unnatural isotopic ratios prove the material is from
> another solar system.

I agree.

> The laws of physics that govern these ratios are supposed to apply to
> the entire universe, not just our solar system or galaxy. Therefore,
> if the ratios are unnatural, that proves nothing about the place of
> origin.

Laws of physics are same but process may be different region to region galaxy to galaxy. They are occurring very high energetic process in AGN's (active galactic nuclei), around black holes and massive black holes (there is also growing evidence that our Milky way has one of them), Quasars, and so many weird things beyond the standard cooking scheme of the stars. Even the mass of the star and how it is blowing (when it die) may change the isotopic ratios.

> It proves that the object was manufactured by someone who deliberately 
> changed the isotopic ratio of the raw material for some reason. Maybe
> the builder was playing a practical joke, or perhaps he found that a 
> particular mixture of isotopes produces more strength, better conductivity,
> or some other desirable quality.

Yes, this is more probable. If you build an hi-tech spaceship you can order any isotopic combination for the material.

> Ron Brightsen believes that isotopes have radically different properties,
> and that someday advanced metallurgy will be based on precise mixtures of
> isotopes, not just elements.

This is will a natural step on metallurgy. I am sure that superconductor researchers are trying unnatural isotope mixtures in their experiments.

> The isotopes tell us nothing about the geographic origin of the
> material, but -- assuming these findings hold up -- I think this does
> suggest that the material was not produced by human beings here on earth.

It may, if a material is a meteor rather than fabricated part according my claims.

Regards,

Hamdi Ucar

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 14:57:37 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:48:12 -0700 From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 16:40:41 -0500
References: <199707112142.OAA29205 joshua.math.ucla.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Isotopic Ratios Prove ET Origin?
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On Jul 11,  4:36pm, Barry Merriman wrote:

> That data certainly convinces me that the material
> is not of this earth---indeed not of this universe!
> They say it is 0.11% Germanium-75....but Ge-75 in
> our universe is unstable with a beta decay half life
> of 83 minutes...

Details, details........ 8^)


-- 
Quote of the Day:  Success is the child of audacity.   -Benjamin Disraeli --
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 14:46:32 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:42:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Barry Merriman <barry@math.ucla.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Isotopic Ratios Prove ET Origin?
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That data certainly convinces me that the material is not of this earth---indeed not of this universe!
They say it is 0.11% Germanium-75....but Ge-75 in our universe is unstable with a beta decay half life of 83 minutes...

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 15:03:24 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:57:45 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Isotopic Ratios Prove ET Origin?
References: <970711205228_72240.1256_EHB115-2 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"Sw65P2.0.Zh2.tqgnp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> I do not understand why anyone says that unnatural isotopic ratios 
> prove the material is from another solar system.

Heavy elements are cooked in first generation stars and spewed via super novas in a local region of space. Presumably, different types of first generation stars might cook different ratios of isotopes?

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 15:27:48 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 18:15:53 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> Subject: MARS   Pathfinder
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	Bulletin:

	I just heard on NPR the command set sent to Rover was not recieved so it was unable to drive off rock.  
	If any westerners were involved with the design it would be OK, the Rover would just call yell and slap hat on chaps and drive off those rocks!
	Were we truly international in our design an Argentine contribution would just throw a bolo with their great skill and bring the rock down.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 15:34:48 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:26:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 18:23:27 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> Subject: Minn Kota 40T
Resent-Message-ID: <"MW_Ui.0.c_.iChnp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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	I have been able to acquire the parts replacement diagram for the Minn Kota 40T trolling motor.   The 'exploded' diagram shows bruches, commutator, permanent magnet pole pieces.

	If I coulds afford it I buy it, instrument it for B, H, E, and EM, current, voltage and put a load on it and test, test ,test.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 17:15:51 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:11:19 -0700 Date: 11 Jul 97 20:09:02 EDT
From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l@eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: Re: Isotopic Ratios Prove ET Origin?
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Hamdi said,

>> If you build an hi-tech spaceship you can order any isotopic combination for the material.<<

Yep, just program the replicator accordingly!

The person who did the isotope analysis was Russell VernonClark of UofC San Diego.  Maybe Barry Merriman could call him and ask about the Ge-75 anomaly, among other things. <G>  Barry?

Terry

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 15:43:28 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:29:56 -0700
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Minn Kota 40T
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970711182025.14132C-100000 college> Resent-Message-ID: <"nDrjh3.0.f-3.qPhnp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Hi John, et al!

With regard to the Minkota motor, I went to the Newman workshop at the ISNE conference....the thing Newman said that really stood out for me was that he suggested to the Navy that you could design LONG motors that lie horizontally and which apparently take advantage of gravity over large surface windings.....but the trick was not vertical WIDTH of the coil windings, but LENGTH....anyway, he said if they made the motor the length of the ship, or at least very long, it would take only a small amount of power to deliver a huge amount of torque..

Personally, I liked Newman, he struck me as a good ole boy who was just trying to do something positive with his life....I don't know about him being President in 2000 (which he said would straighten out this country), but he seemed very sincere. 

He had something else that I'd never heard of before, a flying machine.  
It was in his book and I captured the article and picture on my $500 digital camera which some bastard stole out of my video camera bag while waiting for out Egypt flight at JFK Airport...so all the conference photos are gone....

The picture was of a helium UFO looking ballon with wire wrapped around the equator...Newman said a 200 foot wide version would lift 20 tons and be directionally controlled...god, I hope those numbers are right...from my understanding of what he was saying, his point was the magnetic field lines of the earth were so wide that you have to cover them over a large area to provide a repulsion/attraction control system.

So, if the idea that gravity moving into the earth through the coils spread out over distance, could somehow AUGMENT the flow of electricity, whether by reducing resistance/impedance or jacking up the power, then it seems like a simple thing to test.....seeya!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 20:50:28 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 20:42:09 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:40:29 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:59:03 -0500 (CDT), John Logajan wrote: [snip]
>If it was built a long time ago as a "signal" to us humans, and if it
>used a human face as a prototype, the creative artist should be reassigned
>to kitchen duty.
>
>If it used the alien facial characteristics, it was quite a stretch
>of hope that human faces would evolve along somewhat similar features.

There was a show on TV a while back, in which the "face" was made symmetrical, first by mirroring one half, then by mirroring the other half. The first image looked distinctly human. The second image was leonine or perhaps demonic in appearance. I don't use these terms lightly. It is also very interesting that the sphinx has a lion's body and a human face. This leaves me with the impression that both items may represent a mixing of races in our far past.
[snip]
Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 20:45:39 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 20:41:49 -0700 From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:40:30 GMT
Organization: Improving
References: <m0wmBHq-0001F1C mirage.skypoint.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"DPf6P1.0.Vo5.xplnp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:57:02 -0500 (CDT), John Logajan wrote:

>Of course, their evolutionary development time must have been considerably
>compressed compared to ours -- unless we are transplanted Martians. ;-)

Is it just my imagination, or is there an affinity between mountains and UFOs? (Transplanted Martians would be used to less gravity, and thinner air).

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 20:53:08 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 20:49:04 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Isotopic Ratios Prove ET Origin?
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:47:32 GMT
Organization: Improving
References: <Pine.UW2.3.95.970708022611.17132G-100000 november> <9707081000.ZM8058@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> <33C68F60.1DAD@skylink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"oDZne.0.0U6.fwlnp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:54:08 -0700, Robert Stirniman wrote: [snip]
> Isotope        Natural Abundance   Found in 
>                on Earth            Debris Sample
>
> Silicon-28     92.18               26.55
> Silicon-29     4.71                43.28
> Silicon-30     3.12                30.16
>
> Germanium-70   20.52                 0
> Germanium-72   27.43               94.46
> Germanium-73   7.76                 3.28
> Germanium-74   36.54                2.11
> Germanium-75   0                    0.11
> Germanium-76   7.76                 0.04
>
>Any thoughts about why this may or may not be
>evidence of extra-terrestrial origin?

Perhaps these are natural abundances on a planet formed from the remains of a different supernova, than the one(s) from which our Solar system was formed?

Which of course leads to the question: are these isotope ratios consistent throughout the Solar system?

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 11 22:36:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:35:04 -0700 X-Sender: quinney@inforamp.net
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:31:06 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Isotopic Ratios Prove ET Origin?
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At 08:09 PM 7/11/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Hamdi said,
>
>>> If you build an hi-tech spaceship you can
>order any isotopic combination for the material.<<
>
>Yep, just program the replicator accordingly!
>
>The person who did the isotope analysis was Russell VernonClark of UofC San
>Diego.  Maybe Barry Merriman could call him and ask about the Ge-75 anomaly,
>among other things. <G>  Barry?
>
>Terry
>

Vortex has several very knowledgeable isotope experts. I'm sure that's why Robert posted the article here. Couldn't this Ge-75 anomaly just have a simple explanation? Maybe it's just an error, as Barry suggests. Maybe it's not. The main question should be, "What purpose would those elements, with those isotopic ratios, serve?"

Colin Quinney
[ Unstirring <G>]

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 00:29:09 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:20:19 -0700 Sender: barry@math.ucla.edu
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:20:10 -0700
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu> Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Isotopic Ratios Prove ET Origin?
References: <3.0.32.19970712013104.00874950 inforamp.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"8y3Tt2.0.0U6.o0pnp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Quinney wrote:
> 

> >The person who did the isotope analysis was Russell VernonClark of UofC San
> >Diego.  Maybe Barry Merriman could call him and ask about the Ge-75 anomaly,
> >among other things. <G>  Barry?
> >

I'm attempting to get a hold of him---I'll let you know if anything comes of it.

-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 00:37:08 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:34:31 -0700 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:36:11 -0700
From: Eric Hammond <ehammond pacbell.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Single-Crystal Pd?
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A few years back you were working on extracting energy from charge clusters. How did
this line of research work out?

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 01:18:19 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:11:32 -0700 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:11:05 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com> From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham
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At 5:14 PM 7/11/97, Chris Tinsley wrote:
>Horace,
>
>>I am impressed by Scott's equipment, but the simple fact is that any
>>excess which would be invisible to my calorimeter is not of any
>>practical interest, and would in any case be argued to be some artefact.
>>So I would say that I just don't see the point of it all.
>>
>>Chris
>
>You wrote:
>
>"Personally,  I think you guys have been lulled into some kind of bliss
>by the tranquility of vortex.  Just because you all post your same old
>opinions without massive objection (rejection) here dosn't make the old
>s.p.f arguments go away.  Posting your old arguments here does not mean
>there were none or will be none if a positive result is achieved.
>Almost every report on s.p.f was attacked based on calorimetry (what
>else was there)?  That means flow or temperature measurement.  What else
>is there to flowing calorimetry?  M dot delta T vs I*V. Pretty simple
>huh?  Yet millions have been spent on it."
>
>I'm probably being unusually dense today, but can you show any
>relationship between my comment and your response?
>
>Chris

The point of it all is that a replicatable, reliable, repeatable, anassailable overunity experiment, no matter how small the margin, *is* the holy grail.  Once reliable results can be obtained, progress should be made incrementally.  If it is practical all the better, but that is not necessary for it to be a momentous discovery.  I agree that small COPs (near 1) can be argued to be some artefact, unless techniques are employed that are irrefutable.  On s.p.f. even very large COPs are "refutable".
That is my point.  It seems to me important to the field to  look at and if possible improve calorimetry, thermometry, and flow measurment, especially if it can be done cheaply, which I believe it can.  Scott's dual mode calorimeter is a good step in that direction, and answers many of the old arguments strewn throughout the s.p.f archives.  That does not mean there is no room for improvement, or that the old s.p.f. debates will not resume in one forum or another.

The relationship between your comment and my response is that it was the last comment I read in regard to the above issues, so that is where I put my response, even though it applies much more to Jed than to you since Jed consumed massive amounts of bandwidth on s.p.f. on these very issues.  I was tired and grouchy and I don't have time for this anyway, so that is where I put my response. Sorry it appears aimed at you. However, I did have a frustration that no-one, including you, seems interrested in improving the peripheral technologies, yet face on Mars and ET discussions continue as the main business.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 01:18:50 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:11:09 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Carbon Lithium Hydrogen Arc for "CF" Experiment.
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At 4:32 AM 7/10/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>To Vortex:
>
>With a low voltage high current arc between a carbon anode and
>a lithium-coated carbon cathode in a chamber pressurized with
>hydrogen/deuterium, the arc should run at about 1/3 the 6.0 volt
>ionization potential of the lithium.
>
>This Might allow production of "light leptons" from the copius
>amount of photons (up to 6.0 ev)produced. Subsequent production
>of neutral particles from absorption of the leptons (+/-) by the
>electrons and protons/deuterons, followed by absorption of these by
>the lithium, might get some interesting "warm" fusion reactions along
>with some helium. (p + Li-7 = 2 He-4 + 17.6 Mev). The arc should
>be at about 3,000  deg K.
>
>Except for the lithium, hydrogen and pressure chamber all the
>supplies are available from a welders supply house.
>
>Knowing what you got will take a bit more effort.   :-)
>
>Regards,    Frederick

Fredrick,

I hope you keep posting all your interresting ideas, and that some of them trigger some experiements or ideas of one kind of another.  I have a fealing the suggested experiment might trigger ou reuslts, but for different reasons as I will spell out (post) before departing vortex soon in order to do all my backed up chores and to try to figure out a way to pay for my son the genious to go to college.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Pair Condensates - Part I
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                Energy from Electron Pair Condensates
                        Horace Heffner - 7/11/97

OBJECTIVE

The objective here is to define and discuss some proposed means to create and utilize condensed charge to create energy.  This paper is a collection of ideas proposed to and discussed with Hal Puthoff and Scott Little of Earthtech and was an outgrowth of a brief collaboration with them to study condensed charge. The ideas are being posted while still in this rough form in the hopes they are of use to someone, as I am leaving these things to focus on some of the mudane but still demanding problems of life.

One means proposed is use of a superconductor (SC) cathode as a Bose condensate factory, an assembly line. Electrons enter one at a time and move slowly through the SC until paired, then tunnel out the the anode facing surface, which is maintained at at a high voltage, or a high gradient, as at a pointed tip. The pairs have already completed the first steps of condensate formation. They have net spin zero, and zero momentum.
The coulomb barrier is potentially already overcome, provided the pairs can be made to have a tendency to be brought together.  The pairs are catalysts waiting to react. The potential energy of their proximity alone may be sufficient to release overunity energy upon hitting an anode, ambient molecule or nucleus, or otherwise undergoing waveform collapse or energetic separation in space, provided the pair can be made to tunnel to any of these locations as a pair. To create unergy. it is proposed such interactions can utilize both the coulomb potential of the electrons in proximity and the catalytic shielding effect produced when the waveforms of a tunneling pair collapses on a small locus, i.e. a nucleus.

It is subsequently proposed that cathode holes, not tips, are best for creating condensed charges.

Later, it will be speculated, based upon previously documented experimental results of others, that a SC cathode is not required for pair formation, that there is evidence that pair formation may be happening under the right conditions in high temperature environments,and that it is the electrode surface geometry that is key to the pair production.


CONDENSED CHARGE PRODUCTION WITH SUPERCONDUCTOR CATHODES - A CRUDE IDEA

Beyond the expectation of electron pair ejections at a superconductor cathode tip, which seems to be far more more reasonable than various wild speculations in this field, is the more conjecture that as bosons, groups of electron pairs sufficiently overlapped by being ejected into an external extension of a conduction band at the cathode tip might easily superposition there like any normal non-composite boson. The fact that, under the right conditions, atoms, including their electrons, *can* superposition en mass is already proved via the Bose condensate work already achieved. [1a] However, in the work achieved to date, the condensates consist of mixed charge, and include large atomic nuclei.  The Pauli exclusion principle seems to be not relevant to the large condensate.
The question remains if the electron pairs alone can superposition with only each other, or if they require a seed, an atomic nucleus, to permit the tunneling and coalescing of the pairs into the charge cluster.

The ability to superposition en mass would provide a logical explanation for both the stability of ball lightning (BL) and the observations of massive energy releases upon BL bursting or contact with conductors like water.

The existence of zero point photon pressure provides an added measure of stability in addition to the Bose condensate mechanics.

If initial results in using SC cathodes prove successful, there should be no difficulty in scaling up massively, nor large difficulties in doing so in a fairly compact way. The main difficulty is providing sufficient cooling.

The steps of a possible SC process:

(1) Electrons enter a vacuum enclosed superconductor via a metal conductor.
This involves the cooling of the conductor and the incoming electrons.

(2) The electrons form pairs in the SC.  Since in pairs the energy state is less than not, no cost.

(3) The electrons are ejected from the SC by tunneling across a vacuum gap.

(4) Electrons tend to arrive on the other side of the gap in pairs in percentages approaching 50 %.  Arriving in pairs means the electrons are in close proximity - only angstroms, thus having repulsive potential energy.

(5) It is a possibility, by using a point electrode, that massive condensates might be formed in space at the tip of a pointed cathode, thus greatly increasing the energy per cluster crossing.[1b]

(6) If the electrode (anode) on the other side of the gap is a SC, then, if the distance is short enough,  pairs which tunnel across the gap can remain pairs in large percentages. Those that do not reform pairs.

(7) A premise for generating energy is that, if the anode is not a superconductor, but, say, the outside of a copper pipe carrying water, it will dislodge the pairs and gain the potential energy stored in the repulsive coulomb field.  Large currents should produce large amounts of energy. A vacuum gap is therefore essential to insulate the SC cathode.

It is possible to scale up the device shown below in FIG. 1.



                           Insulating cap up here
         -----------                                       -----------
         |         |                                       |         |
         |   ----- |                                       | -----   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |.......................................| |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                 LN2                   | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |--- (-)
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |
         |   |   | |                                       | |   |   |  ---------   |   | ----------------------------------------- |   |   |--------  |           |   |          Insulated Metal Plate            |   |           |  -------------   --------------------IIII---------------------   -------------  -O--O-               -----------------------------------             --O--O--  |    |               |      Negative Superconductor    |             |      |  |    |               -----------------------------------             |      |  | x  |                                                               | x    |  |    |                                                               |      |  |    |                   vacuum gap (much narrower)                  |      |  |    |                                                               |      |  -O--O-                                                               --O--O--  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------  |                     Copper plate  Running at over 100 C      (+)          |  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                           Coolant to absorb power

  x    - insulating vacuum holding ceramic walls
  O    - O-ring seals
  III  - Insulated contact between Superconductor and Insulated Metal Plate

                                 FIG. 1



The electrons might only cross the gap in pairs, due to lack of a pointed cathode, but that should still produce a large COP.  O-ring seals are for vacuum.

Here is an interesting and relevant quote from "Superconductors, Conquering Technology's New Frontier", by Randy Simon and Andrew Smith, Plenum Press, 1988, about electron-phonon interaction:"The ground rules for this little game of pool require that the total momentum be conserved in the scattering process but *do not demand energy conservation* for the incoming and outgoing electrons.  As long as the difference between the electrons is no more than the binding energy of the pair. such scattering events will lower the energy of the system."  Some more obvious info: "Of course accelerating the electrons adds some energy of motion.  If too much energy is added, then the pairs must break apart. We call the amount of electric field required to break up pairs the *depairing field;* in practice, breaking pairs requires currents so large that the superconductor has long since surpassed the critical current associated with its magnetic field."

Considering the above, and the fact that the majority of electrons tunnel across a Josephson Junction in pairs, (There is no tug, they just tend to tunnel together - because tunneling is a zero resistance phenomenon, and the pairs are already bound, even if loosely. For once co-location is favorable!) it seems there might be some prospect that the pairs can remain paired right up to the tip of the needle and maybe some right on out into the extended conduction bands.  For one thing, there is zero resistance inside the needle, so there can't be much of a field gradient.  Some electrons will be broken apart, but some might make it to the edge, to the last few atomic layers of the SC, and then tunnel out beyond the tip before depairing.  Further, it may not even be necessary to have a needle point.
A plane might even work better if the gap is short enough. All you need to do is get enough close pairs to tunnel out into the vacuum and the energy is gained.  It's for sure they aren't going back to the SC if there is a high gradient between the SC and the copper. Actually the paired electrons don't even have to be close to each other if enough other pairs are drawn out simultaneously due to macro level effects. They are all one waveform, and most important, as pairs, they are bosons. No Pauli exclusion principle to prevent a massive condensate, or numerous adjacent condensates, from forming. Further, a needle point, sharp to the angstrom level, forces the pairs into close proximity before tunneling out ot the point tip. The main difficulty with a point tip is keeping the current level low enough that the tip is not destroyed, or alternately, using a liquid tip so the tip is self reforming.

In type II SC's pairs are much closer together. It is this closeness that permits magnetic vortex formation.  It appears that a strategy to bring pairs closer might be to place a type II needle point in a strong longitudinal magnetic field to nearly saturate the needle with magnetic vortices.  However, that may not be necessary because it's already done by the tip current. The purpose of this is to further concentrate the pairs and thus increase their potential energy upon tunneling.  Since pairs are bosons, the magnetic field should not affect them adversely.

There are lots of factors to try to balance.  The magnetic field might be helpful (per above) and the current might not have to be very large, the tip not too pointed. I have done both spark and glow discharge experiments with  xenon bulbs which were only at about a microamp.  It would take some doing to balance needle geometry, field strength, voltage, gap size, etc.
However, field emission has it's requirements - which don't seem too compatible; it might be infeasible idea.

Type II SC's are very bad conductors. Maybe a thin coating on the SC would provide a barrier to stop the pairs before reaching the tip, and give them something to tunnel through like at a JJ.  Such a coating might be provided and automatically regulated in size by the tip (1) going above Tc, or (2) too many pairs getting pulled apart, or (3) current density rising to high, or (4) electrostatic field gradient getting too high near tip.  That's a lot of things that might be simultaneously and automatically regulated by the tip losing superconductivity.


CONDENSING ELECTRONS ON ATOMS - A BETTER IDEA

Suppose, in FIG. 1, the superconductor (SC) were covered with an thin (20 angstrom or so) insulating film, similar to a Josephson junction (JJ).
This would provide two things (1) a uniform tunneling barrier to insure that all current is tunneling current and  (2) a  protection of the SC surface.  The cathode conductor could be joined to a metal film deposited on the back side of the SC. A thick insulating covering deposited over the film and conductor.

Now, what is the difference between an electron or pair tunneling across the junction to an SC and across the junction to the vacuum, or maybe to a stray molecule or atom? The tunneling rate should be similar to a JJ if there is a potential on the other side of the barrier, a sufficient gradient across the barrier. There is no need to actually have an anode there right up against the JJ barrier. Having a vacuum gap there provides the thermal insulation necessary to make the device work without excessive cooling costs. To get an energy gain it is only necessary that the pairs get to close proximity on the anode side of the barrier, not all the way to the anode itself.

Another interesting point or question is whether tunneling, i.e. waveform collapse at a new location, requires matter, a particle, as a target location.  It appears there is evidence of this via photon collapse in the photo-electric effect. Photons travel for light years though space, continually expanding, only to collapse into an interaction with a single atom randomly selected at a destination surface.  Now, pairs are bosons, so should be governed by a similar requirement of a matter target to collapse their combined waveform.  In effect they need a seed to condense upon on the anode side of the barrier.  A xenon atom, might provide just the kind of seed necessary to accumulate large numbers of pairs into a condensate.
By being heavy, its momentum might let it hang around long enough to accumulate a good load. On the contrary side, a large accumulated negative potential should prevent the feasibility of more than a pair (or even a pair) from making the leap.  However, even if only a pair can make the leap to condense on an atom, then massive energy is gained because they are forced into a location that is only about an angstrom in size.  However, pairs are bosons, so their fields should overlap without interaction, so the jumps may be feasible if the boson nature is preserved.


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 01:50:19 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:46:18 -0700 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:45:45 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Pair Condensates - Part II
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CONDENSATION IN HOLES - THE BEST IDEA

The rule that maintains the electrons as a boson is that they keep equal but opposite momentum (not energy) at all times. So, to facilitate this, the surface of the SC (as shown in FIG. 1) should be filled with tiny holes or slits.  If an atom drifts into a hole, or possibly even a singular electron, there is a seed to condense pairs upon.  The pairs can approach the seed from opposite sides of the hole.  Any pair equidistant from the seed but on opposite sides of the seed is a candidate for making the quantum leap to the seed yet remaining as a boson - thus not adding to the potential opposing the leap. The electrostatic gradient in a small hole should be small until reaching the hole opening. Thus acceleration of the seed to a point that would disrupt the condensate might be delayed until the condensate reaches the mouth of the hole.  Then it is too late. The energy is gained and the condensate can explode in all directions, but most of the kinetic energy will tend to be carried away from the SC due to the strong electrostatic gradient and the pair momentum.

Though possibly not as effective as holes, slits or grooves might be easier to make.  Separate superconductors sandwiched together to make a gap would not work well because coherence must be maintained between the two sides of the gap.  Also, if any potential should be created across the gap a GHz EM emission will develop that will tend to shut things down as far as Bose condensate formation in the gap.

A maximum path through the SC of about 1 cm, maybe much less, depending on the SC, could be permitted around the slits to maintain coherence.

One problem with the above idea is that, for tunneling to be effective, the holes or grooves might have to be only about 40 microns across.

Because the condensate formation can occur in the holes or grooves at zero volts differential, it is not clear that a significant voltage would be required to generate the condensates in holes or slits.  Also, a small voltage might facilitate a longer mean path outside the mouth of the hole or grating before the condensate exploded, or leaked electrons, thus reducing the SC cooling requirements.  However, a larger voltage may increase the size of the structures that can generate condensates to something well above 40 angstroms.

An ionic pump could be used to circulate H2 or He or Xe, etc., at low pressure around a loop that includes the SC active surface, or moves though the surface.  In this way, by maintaining a small pressure differential, a controllable flow of neutral seed material past the SC can be obtained.
Possibly the neutral gas flow could facilitate cooling where it is needed most - at the mouth of the holes or grooves where the condensate would tend to explode.


CATHODE SPOTS - A MAYBE

The nature of cathode spots [1c] indicates a hole or gap size of up to 0.1 micron might work for the above proposed mechanisms.  This is a typical size for a cathode spot. There is much not fully understood about cathode spots.  As of 1980, there were at least 17 major explanations for them [2] There is also the continuing investigation of other emission anomalies, e.g. particle formations characteristic of higher energy processes, under the "Pseudospark" classification. [3a - 3c]

Of special interest about cathode spots is that metallic vapor jets issue from them with velocities of up to 1000 m/sec, with one atom of metal removed per about every 10 electrons emitted. [4]  These spots can have high currents, estimated at up to 10^8 A/cm^2, and it is thought that the emission of high energy electrons is by thermal-field (T-F) emission as described by Schottky [5] and that the less energetic electrons are emitted by field emission (tunneling)  It is thought most of the emission is T-F emission, but, as of 1980, there was no experimental proof of this. [6]

A calculation using Childs space charge equation shows a vacuum arc 1 cm long varying a current density of 100 A/cm^2 would require about 100 KV voltage, and that if 99 percent of the electron space charge were balanced by a distribution of positive charge, then 4800 V would be required. [7] Actually only 28 V is required, indicating the space charge is neutralized to within a few parts per million, and that this neutralization occurs at the cathode spot. "Flows of ions away from cathode spots toward the anode (against the main electric field of discharge) have been detected by both optical and mass spectrographic data." [7]

Lafferty and Dillon state: "Honig [8] and Franzen and Schuy [9] found large amounts of multiply charged ions as well as singly charged ions.  Plyutto et al. [10] showed in addition that the average ion energies correspond to voltages exceeding the total arc voltage, thus the average ion has sufficient energy to move anywhere within the discharge.  Davis and Miller [11] confirmed, extended, and made more precise those earlier measurements: they showed that the energies of the neutral atoms emanating from the arc are much less than those of the ions, and apparently are confined to thermal energies, except for a few forming a high energy tail of the distribution. In copper arcs the energy gap (measured at anode potential) between the average singly charged ion and the average neutral exceeds 30 eV.  There is very little overlap between neutral atom and ion energy distribution." [12]

Arc voltage characteristics are poorly understood, and no published theory explains the positive resistance characteristic or tells why the arc voltage for molybdenum is higher than for copper. [13]  It appears to be especially true the voltages are poorly understood at arc extinguishing currents because of the extreme fluctuations, fluctuations many times arc voltage and at frequencies of 1 - 15 MHz, despite the addition of up to 2500 uH inductors in the circuit. [14]  If such voltage fluctuations were the result of circuit parameters the addition of inductance would have changed the transient frequencies.

The combination of all these factors leads to the hypothesis here that pair formation may be going on to some degree in conductors at thermal levels.
Due to thermal collisions, such pairs would have a very short half-life, and thus would not permit formation of any macro level coherence like that exhibited in superconductors.  However, if such pair formation were frequent enough, it could account for some part of the above phenomena.

If there is pair availability in the cathode, then neutral atoms, boiled off the interior surface of the cathode spot hole, could be seeds for formation of doubly negative charged condensate formation, e.g. a CU-- condensate formation.  It is even possible that the pair formation and tunneling to a co-centered location with the seed atom occurs at the same instant. The essential conditions would only be that the electrons have equal but opposite momentum, within the binding energy for a pair, and be equidistant from the seed. There would only be the possibility of tunneling to nearly exact co-centering on the seed.  However, this co-centered configuration, even though having a high potential energy due to the tunneling of the electrons through their coulomb barrier, represents a lowest energy configuration for the electrons, thus the high probability even though the volume involved is small.

The formation of double negative ions provides a couple explanations.  One, it explains how the metal ions are accelerated out of the hole.  Another is that, when the ion reaches the boundary of the hole, it meets the full electrostatic field gradient of the plasma ball in front of the electrode.
Acceleration here would destroy the condensate and a high energy explosion due to the mutual repulsion of the condensate electron pair would result.
The energy of that explosion would quickly be dissipated in the plasma ball by collision.  However, it has been experimentally observed that the plasma ball contains ions well above the total potential drop across the vacuum arc. [15]  Lastly, it explains why the energetic group of metal atoms are positively charged positive ions, or even multiply charged positive ions, and yet going the wrong direction, against the electrostatic gradient.
That is because the energy of the electron pair repulsion at the moment of condensate breakdown is sufficient to knock one or two extra electrons off the metal atom, thus leaving it as a positive ion with higher momentum than the thermal neutrals.  Perhaps these mechanisms can explain the very presence of the high energy plasma ball on the cathode right in front of the spot.

The current oscillations at near extinguishing voltages and currents could possibly be explained by the fact that when current is down the ion density is down and the electrons from the exploding condensates preserve their high kinetic energy longer.  In fact, as current approaches zero, the mean free path can exceed the arc gap width.  As heat in the spot drops a larger percentage of the current must be due to tunneling.  This means a greater concentration of the explosive condensates should be formed, and upon reaching the surface of the spot hole their explosion could produce a strong negative pulse which  (1) momentarily suppresses the potential in the spot hole, and (2) generates heating on the surface of the hole.  These effects serve to reduce the current while shifting the mode more back to the lower voltage T-H type arc.  Operating in that normal low voltage mode, however, the hole quickly cools and potential drops, repeating the cycle.
This cycle uses overunity energy as the primary drive for the oscillation.

There are various devices which seem to gain energy from arc and abnormal glow current oscillations.  If the hypothesis is true then perhaps the excess energy for these devices is coming from condensate explosion.

Some practical conclusions of the hypothesis are

(1) To see a maximum COP operate as close to the shutdown
    current, or with as many tunneling electrons, as possible.

(2) It may not be necessary to use a superconductor as a cathode to
    maximize the proportion of tunneled electrons, or the
    proportion of condensates formed. Copper or silver may be best.

(3) Possibly use a barrier surface on the cathode to
    guarantee that all electrons emitted from the cathode do tunnel.

(4) Prepare the cathode by creating holes or slits with
    rough interior surfaces.

(5) It is possible to use the gas flowing through the holes or slits
    as a coolant.

(6) Since, if a cold cathode is used, there is no source of thermal
    atoms to act as a seed source, provide them via flow
    through the holes or slits (created by a pressure differential.)
    This implies the need for a very thin cathode.  If the process
    works as hypothesized, the cathode itself might work as an
    ion pump to maintain the differential.  It is then simply
    a matter of directing the gas flow to obtain cooling before
    returning to the back side of the cathode.

(7) If coherence over macro ranges, e.g. 1 cm., is not necessary,
    then the cathode could be made by sandwiching
    together separate pieces of metal, and these could have
    triangular cross sections to provide strength, narrow gaps,
    yet low gas flow resistance.

The major concern is the discrepancy between hole diameter and typical tunneling distances.  It is possible the pair formation occurs in cathode spots at the moment the atom is dislodged from the metal crystal lattice.
After the bonds are broken, the atom's brief continued presence in its own hole left in the crystal lattice then provides the condensate forming geometry I have suggested. If the surface of the cathode slits are made sufficiently rough, probably by acid etching, and large neutral gas atoms, like xenon, are used, that may provide a similar situation, however.

This hypothesis of warm condition condensed pair formation seems a bit far fetched, much more so than the idea proposed earlier to use a superconductor cathode with holes.  However, the facts and ideas taken as a whole lead to some interesting experimental possibilities and are consistent with descriptions of various ou devices.

There are further implications (of pair formation and simultaneous pair tunneling to form a condensate in warm conditions) to cold fusion and other devices where energy production has been reported. A condensate formed of H+ + e- + e- = H- should be more stable than a larger condensate, have a much higher probability of creation due to th low net energy condition, and has a clear potential to overcome the coulomb barrier so may act as a catalyst for low energy nuclear reactions.


FOOTNOTES:

1a. David H. Freedman, "Bose and Einstein in Boulder", Discover, JAN, 1996

1b. Ken Shoulder, EV - A Tale of Discovery, 1987

1c. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980

2. Ibid, p.5

3a. See www URL: <http://www.ee.umd.edu/~rhee/pseudospark/geninfo.html>

3b. K. Frank and J. Christianson, IEEE Trans. Plasma Sci. 17, 748 (1989).

3c. J. Christiansen and C. Shultheiss, Z. Phys. A 290, 35 (1979).

4. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980, p.9

5. W. Schottkey, "Ann. Phys." (Leipzig), 44, 1011(1914)

6. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980, p.122

7. Ibid. p.123

8. R. E. Honig, "Proceedings of the Twelfth Annual Conference on
   Mass Spectroscopy". Montreal, June, 1964, p. 233

9. J. Franzen and K. D. Schuy, "Z. Naturforsch," 20a, 176(1965)

10. A. A. Plyutto, V. N. Ryzhkov, and A. T. Kapin, "Sov. Phys - J Exp.
    Theor. Phys.," 20, 328(1965)

11. W. D. Davis and H. C. Miller, J. Appl. Phys. 40, 22212(1969)

12. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980, p.126

13. Ibid, p.153

14. Ibid, p.154

15. Ibid, p.302

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 02:17:44 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 02:16:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re; Isotopic Ratios Prove ET Origin?
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:14:21 +0000
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On Sat, 12 Jul 97 03:47:32 +0000,  Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Which of course leads to the question: are these isotope ratios
>consistent throughout the Solar system?

Since silcon and germanium are mainstream materials for semiconductor manufacture, and SiCl4 and GeCl4 are used routinely for chemical vapor deposition technology, there is no reason that a bit of gaseous diffusion hanky-panky or centrifugal separation-concentration couldn't be used to shift the isotopic ratios to create an "out of this world" speciman to perpetuate a hoax. Especially with the big bucks that the charlatans connected with UFO-Roswell rake in.  :-)

They are getting damn near as good at this as NASA  and the Hot Fusion folks-D.O.E.     :-)

Regards,    Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 05:18:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 05:16:34 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Missing Alkali Metals in Sea Water?
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:15:50 +0000
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To Vortex:

Assuming a transmutation reaction: Solar Photons to Light Leptons then Light Leptons-protons to neutral particles, plus alkali equal transmutation-depletion in sea water over a few billion years.....

Alkali Metal  Crustal Abundance (ppm) Sea Water (ppm) C.A.:S.W.

Lithium            20                     0.2           100

Sodium            18,350                 10,500         1.76

Potassium         16,000                    380         42.1

Rubidium           70                       0.12        583

Cesium             1.60                     0.0005      3,200

Chloride solubility in water at about 20 deg C (grams/cm^3 H2O)

LiCL  2.2

NaCl  0.6

KCl   0.5

RbCl  1.2

CsCl  1.7

All in your Clam Chowder?   :-)

Compare with abundance in the Dead Sea, Great Salt Lake and Searles Lake "Brines".  No such depletion there.

Regards,   Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 06:34:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: 12 Jul 97 09:21:21 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham
Resent-Message-ID: <"DShyR2.0.KA4.rLunp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Horace,

 >  On s.p.f. even very large COPs are "refutable". That is my point.

But it doesn't matter what those bozos 'refute'.  It doesn't matter that Steve Jones can post endlessly that recombination explains 1000*V*I.
The science community at large will not be convinced by them, especially since there are replication problems and lack of full disclosure.

Out in the wider world, tiny excess energies are not going to cut any ice with many people.  Accordingly, we need reasonably good COPs and full replicability and disclosure.  The world will then ignore the rantings on s.p.f, just as they have ignored their past equivalents.

 > It seems to me important to the field to  look at and if possible  > improve calorimetry, thermometry, and flow measurment, especially  > if it can be done cheaply, which I believe it can.

No.  If the result is tiny and requires sophisticated measurements then it will attract little interest from almost anyone.  That may not be rational, but it's factual.

 >  However, I did have a frustration that no-one, including you,  > seems interrested in improving the peripheral technologies, yet  > face on Mars and ET discussions continue as the main business.

Certainly I am not more than mildly interested in greater precision in calorimetry.  That is because the world is not quite sane, and I recognise that even if I don't like it.  As to the Cydonia stuff, were we not just having a bit of fun?  Is that so very terrible?  I've worked damned hard for quite a few years on CF-related matters, and I see exactly no harm in relaxing occasionally - quite a few of us seem to have enjoyed the discussion.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 07:18:10 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 07:13:55 -0700 X-Sender: quinney@inforamp.net
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 10:10:01 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Re; Isotopic Ratios Prove ET Origin?
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At 09:14 AM 7/12/97 +0000, Frederick wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Jul 97 03:47:32 +0000,  Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>Which of course leads to the question: are these isotope ratios
>>consistent throughout the Solar system?
>
>Since silcon and germanium are mainstream materials for semiconductor
>manufacture, and SiCl4 and GeCl4 are used routinely for chemical
>vapor deposition technology, there is no reason that a bit of
>gaseous diffusion hanky-panky or centrifugal separation-concentration
>couldn't be used to shift the isotopic ratios to create an
>"out of this world" speciman to perpetuate a hoax. Especially
>with the big bucks that the charlatans connected with UFO-Roswell
>rake in.  :-)
>
>They are getting damn near as good at this as NASA  and the Hot Fusion
>folks-D.O.E.     :-)
>
>Regards,    Frederick
>

It's the most logical scenario. Occam would be pleased. ..but is it the truth? ( The truth *is* out there...  :-) 

Colin Quinney.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 09:06:17 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:04:22 -0700 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:03:37 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham, signing off Resent-Message-ID: <"wV1Pv3.0.pH4.5iwnp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 9:21 AM 7/12/97, Chris Tinsley wrote:
>As to the Cydonia stuff, were
>we not just having a bit of fun?  Is that so very terrible?  I've
>worked damned hard for quite a few years on CF-related matters, and I
>see exactly no harm in relaxing occasionally - quite a few of us seem
>to have enjoyed the discussion.
>
>Chris

Yes. Fun is great, and I had my fun also - with the Angel of Europa.  In fact, it's all been fun for me these past years.  Thanks!  I was just hoping maybe I could get something useful done in my last few days here.
I'm signing off now to go meet the demands of family life.

As I do I'll leave you with a quote from Wind Energy Weekly:

"OHIO STATE TEAM DETAILS STRONG CLIMATE EVIDENCE

        A team of Ohio State University researchers said April 3 that its research provides "some of the most compelling evidence yet for recent global warming."

        Ice caps in alpine regions throughout the tropics and subtropics are melting at "a phenomenal rate," the researchers said, while last year, other scientists discovered that the freezing point in the upper atmosphere has been gaining altitude.

        These findings may be among the best evidence to date that the planet is experiencing a recent and rapid warming, Ellen Mosley-Thompson, a professor of geography at Ohio State, told attendees at the annual meeting of the Association of American Geographers in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mosley-Thompson said the resulting climatic and environmental changes will have "massive impacts on human populations around the globe."

        She cited the following recent scientific observations:

o       The edge of the Qori Kalis glacier that flows off the Quelccaya ice cap high in the Peruvian Andes Mountains was retreating at a rate of four meters (13 feet) annually between 1963 and 1978. By 1995, that rate had grown to 30 meters (99 feet) each year.

o       The freezing level in the Earth's atmosphere -- the height where the air temperature reaches 0 degrees C -- has been gaining altitude since 1970 at a rate of 4.5 meters (nearly 15 feet) each year.

o       Ice cores taken from the Dunde ice cap in eastern Tibet have shown that the last 50 years were the warmest in recorded history. A similar ice core record from the Huascaran ice cap in Peru has shown a strong warming over the last 200 years."

        "Most of the evidence for warming that we see in these high alpine ice caps is in regions that are already water stressed," Mosley-Thompson said. "These tropical areas are where most of the planet's population lives and where subsistence agriculture is incapable of feeding the population. And in the future, the greatest increase in population will occur here." ...

...  "We're making massive changes to the climate on an unprecedented scale in some parts of the globe," she said. "This kind of discussion has to find its way into the general conversation."

        For further information, contact Ellen-Mosley Thompson, phone (614) 292-6531, e-mail <thompson.4 osu.edu>."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 09:46:17 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: 12 Jul 97 12:32:58 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Puzzled of Nottingham
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To: Vortex

Horace Heffner writes:

     The point of it all is that a replicatable, reliable, repeatable,
     unassailable overunity experiment, no matter how small the margin, *is*
     the holy grail.

That's a contradiction. If the margin is small the results will not be unassailable. Anyone will doubt marginal calorimetry. I sure will! God knows I have seen enough of it.


     On s.p.f. even very large COPs are "refutable".

No, they are not. Please note that people on s.p.f. argued with me, but they never dared to challenge the papers by McKubre, Kunimatsu, Oriani, Bockris, Storms or any of the other high-sigma, quality results. Hundreds of papers to choose from, but not one person ever showed a single mistake in any one of them. In the history of cold fusion, I know of only two formal, published scientific papers questioning *any* CF calorimetry. Morrison and Jones challenged Fleischmann, and Fleischmann cut them into thousands of tiny quivering cubes. It was like watching a full professor put down a know-it-all undergraduate. I wouldn't call it a debate. In their books, Close, Taubes, Huizenga and Hoffman never challenged the calorimetry, unless you count the Taubes claim that excess heat is caused by increased electricity on weekends.

Of course, anyone can find fault with the marginal CF results, but they do not concern us here. I am talking about McKubre, and if you don't know what I mean, I suggest you read his papers or (dare I suggest it) my review of his work in "Infinite Energy."


     It seems to me important to the field to  look at and if possible
     improve calorimetry, thermometry, and flow measurement, especially if it
     can be done cheaply, which I believe it can.

I am afraid it cannot be done cheaply. I have seen and read about many, many calorimeters over the years. A certain level of precision can be easily achieved. That is why 19th century scientists agreed upon units of measurement like calories, watts, volts, amps, and degrees Celsius. One thermal watt is like one millimeter: it is the smallest unit you can measure with confidence using ordinary, off-the-shelf instruments. (Your instrument resolves a tenth or fifth watt, and you then say with confidence that the power is at 2 watts, not 3.) You can, of course, measure far smaller units, but as you go down the scale the costs shoot up and the techniques become increasingly problematic.


     Scott's dual mode calorimeter is a good step in that direction, and
     answers many of the old arguments strewn throughout the s.p.f archives.

The arguments strewn through the s.p.f. archives have no scientific merit.
Anyone familiar with basic calorimetry will dismiss them all. The s.p.f.
debates boil down to a bunch of people who claim it is impossible to measure 5, 10 and 50 degree C temperature differences, and Steve Jones who says that recombination can cause thousands of times more power than amps times volts.
Oh, yes, and we also had people like Droege claim that a mercury thermometer might be affected by the power supply of a pump. He and others talked about that for weeks, as I recall. Not one of them ever tried holding a mercury thermometer next to a power supply to see what happens. Nothing happens! That simple test would have ended all debate. Droege also wrote page after page speculating that the Griggs device affects bimetallic thermometers and thermocouples. He could have spent fifteen seconds checking for that when he visited Griggs. A glance at the instruments after the machine was turned off would have settled the issue, canceled the debate, and saved a lot of time.
But Droege and his ilk do not believe in the experimental method.

- Jed

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 09:41:10 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:32:53 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman@mail.earthlink.net Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 11:36:19 -0600
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From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham, signing off Resent-Message-ID: <"gY6lI.0.iC5.q6xnp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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By coincidence, another perspective re the "Global Warming/Global Cooling" question was received at the same time as the post from Horace.

Personally, I have no conclusive opinion either way.  And I will be posting Horace's article to the individual who was the source of the opposing view, should he wish to respond.  Are we entering a true "global warming" period or is possible evidence of "global warming" a short-term glich in a over-all trend of "global cooling?"  I honestly don't know.  I would postulate that even if our planet is entering a period some type of "climatic crisis," that such a problem can be solved via non-socialistic volitional mechanisms regardless of whether the problem is ultimately one of "global warming" or "global cooling."

Evan Soule'
josephnewman earthlink.net


>"OHIO STATE TEAM DETAILS STRONG CLIMATE EVIDENCE
>
>        A team of Ohio State University researchers said April
>3 that its research provides "some of the most compelling
>evidence yet for recent global warming."
>
>        Ice caps in alpine regions throughout the tropics and
>subtropics are melting at "a phenomenal rate," the
>researchers said, while last year, other scientists
>discovered that the freezing point in the upper atmosphere
>has been gaining altitude.
>
snip--
>
>...  "We're making massive changes to the climate
>on an unprecedented scale in some parts of the globe," she
>said. "This kind of discussion has to find its way into the
>general conversation."
>
>        For further information, contact Ellen-Mosley Thompson,
>phone (614) 292-6531, e-mail <thompson.4 osu.edu>."
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

The Forgotten Case for Global Cooling, Part One Part Two online 7-9-97

Cover Story from July 2nd issue of Wednesday on the Web http://www.pacg.com/pvbr/

GLOBALWARMING GLOBALONEY
PART ONE
By Phil Brennan

Foreword

Is the world heating up? Will the polar ice caps melt, raise the sea levels and inundate the coastal areas of the world? Will Florida disappear beneath the waves? Is humanity facing a fiery cataclysm from global warming? Is mankind in the process of radically altering the earth's climate by thoughtlessly emitting monstrous quantities of so-called "greenhouse gasses."

Or is it all a lot of hooey?

The answer to these questions is of absolute importance to all Americans who value their liberty, because as Kim Weissman explains in his column, behind all the rhetoric about global warming and mankind's culpability for this impending disaster is a shrewdly planned campaign to inflict a lot of socialistic restrictions on our cherished freedoms.

Environmentalism, in short, is the last refuge of socialism.

It is no accident that one of those in the forefront of the global warming alarmists is one Michael Gorbachev, an unrepentant socialist who appears to believe if you can't lick 'em one way, find another.

Under the guise of saving the planet from a kind of self-inflicted incineration the Clinton administration is seeking to impose some of the most draconian restrictions on our liberties ever contemplated.

The debate over global warming is the most crucial Americans have faced since the Cold War ended with the demise of what now appears to have been the first phase in the ongoing attempt to build a world socialist order.

That attempt was brutal and overt -- the Communists made no secret about their plans to bury us, by force if necessary.

The latest power grab by the left is far more subtle -- and covert. And it must be met with the same vigor that energized America in its battle with world communism because if those promoting the global warming panic prevail, the outcome will be much the same as it would have been had we lost the Cold War. Only the commissars will differ. It will be the Gores instead of the Gorbachevs.

Cooling? Global refrigeration instead of Global barbecuing? You bet. And there's a heck of a lot more solid scientific evidence that what the world is facing is the onset of a new ice age than there is behind the very fragile global warming theory.

Up until the mid-Seventies there was general agreement among researchers, who studied such arcane signs of the far distant past as sedimentary deposits on the ocean floor, that sooner or later a new ice age was in the cards for this planet. Even the CIA signed on to the idea that the iceman cometh.

The idea that an ice age was approaching was based on history, not hysteria -- the motivating force behind global warming studies. And what history taught paleoclimatological scientists engaged in what is known as quaternary research, is the incontrovertible fact that the earth has experienced a long series of ice ages occurring as regular as clockwork -- 100,000 years of glaciation followed by 10-to-12,000 years of interglaciation.

There is, they maintained, no reason to believe that what appears to be an immutable law of nature has somehow been miraculously repealed and the cycle of glaciation and interglaciation ended.

No reason, except for political expediency. But more about that later.

Here's a sample of the kind of thing was being discussed back in the mid-seventies by that part of the scientific community that dealt with the geological history of climate changes:

"The present interglacial interval -- which has now lasted for about 10,000 years -- represents a climatic regime that is relatively rare during the past million years, most of which has been occupied by colder, glacial regimes. Only during about 8 percent of the past 700,000 years has the earth experienced climates as warm or warmer than the present.

"The penultimate interglacial age began about 125,000 years ago, and lasted for approximately 10,000 years. Similar interglacial ages -- each lasting 10,000 plus or minus 2000 years and each followed by a glacial maximum -- have occurred on the average every 100,000 years during at least the past half-million years. During this period, fluctuations of the northern hemisphere ice sheets caused sea level variations of the order of 100 meters." (Understanding Climate Change, published by the National Academy of Sciences in 1975 -- page 181).

On page 189 the question was asked: "When will the present interglacial [period] end?

"Few paleoclimatoligists would dispute that the prominent warm periods (or interglacials) that have followed each of the terminations of the major glaciations have had durations of 10,000 plus or minus 2000 years.
In each case, a period of considerably colder climate has followed immediately after the interglacial interval. Since about 10,000 years have passed since the onset of the present period of prominent warmth, the question naturally arises as to whether we are indeed on the brink of a period of colder climate."

"The question remains unsolved. If the end of the interglacial is episodic in character, we are moving toward a rather sudden climatic change of unknown timing ... if on the other hand, these changes are more sinusoidal in character, then the climate should decline gradually over a period of a thousand years."

A study prepared for the 95th Congress in 1978 agreed with the National Academy of Sciences position as explained in the above-quoted study. The document Weather Modification: Programs, Problems, Policy and Potential warned:

"In geological prospective, the case for cooling is strong ... If this interglacial age lasts no longer than a dozen earlier ones in the past million years, as recorded in deep sea sediments, we may reasonably suppose the world is about due to slide into the next ice age."

That was the prevailing opinion among paleoclimatologists; it was a case of the past being prologue. If the earth underwent regular cycles of glaciation and interglacial periods, and the geological record proved that to be the case, then obviously we are at the end of the present between-ice-ages period.

The only question remaining is exactly when and how glaciation will begin.

Remember, what we are dealing with here is historic evidence -- not a widely disputed theory as is the case with global warming. Even a cursory glance at the global warming debate reveals that even its most ardent supporters disagree on the details. Moreover, the so-called evidence is so contradictory that one group of scientists will claim that the ocean temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere are heating while others will insist they are cooling.

Even the scientific record is spotty. One group will insist that the Northern latitudes are warming while others will point to growth of the polar ice pack and the forward progress of some glaciers.

Amazingly, the preponderance of opinion that obtained among paleoclimatoligists back in the Seventies and early Eighties, is never addressed. It's as if the record of a regular glacial/interglacial cycle never existed. It has been ignored because it is much too inconvenient to those who have a vested interest in pushing the Globalwarming Glabaloney.

Interestingly, both the ice age predictions and the Global Warming theory agree that the climate is changing, and not for the better. And both rightly ascribe the changes to the drastic increase of CO2 in the atmosphere.

But there the agreement ends. The Global Warming supporters blame the rise of CO2 levels on the rabid environmentalist movement's principal villain: mankind.

Those who either believe in the onset of a new ice age, or simply do not buy the global warming scenario, blame the rise in CO2 levels on natural causes. And it at this point that we venture out beyond the provable historical geological evidence and enter the realm of speculation based on some pretty compelling (and commonsensical) arguments.

In 1982, a retired engineer, John D. Hamaker, published a book, The Survival of Civilization, in which he expounded on his research into climate change.

Ice ages, Hamaker explained, are Mother Nature's versions of spring house cleaning.

During ice ages, as glaciers move over the land they pick up rocks, grind them into powder and, when they retreat at the end of an ice age, they leave this ground rock spread out across the continental areas they covered.

This powdered rock contains tiny microorganisms which mineralize the soil, providing a superior form of fertilization. Over the next 10,000 plus or minus 2000 years the soil loses more and more of its fertility as the sedimentary rock dissipates.

Without the life-giving microorganisms, plant life grows weaker and weaker, and eventually dies. And since healthy plant life thrives on CO2 and absorbs much of that gas in the atmosphere, when it weakens and dies it can no longer soak up the excess CO2, which remains in the atmosphere.

Hamaker also noted that the geological record shows that whenever the CO2 in the atmosphere reached levels above 300 parts per million the onset of glaciation occurred!

CO2 levels have already risen above 300 PPM!

Next Week: Part Two -- How CO2 Triggers Ice Ages, and what Havoc it can Wreak.
-------
_______________________________________ Charles L Hamilton  (chasm insync.net)  Houston, TX


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 12:32:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:31:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Electrodeless "Cold Fusion"?
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 19:29:25 +0000
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To Vortex:

In the electrochemical "CF" effects a current is passed through the water that is "doped" with a salt to increase the charge carrier concentration.

The reactions OH- minus e- requires 2.02 ev or 2.02 volts potential.

It might be possible to accomplish the same thing (energies)with light in the 500 nanometer (yellow) to 615 nanometer (red)range.

These frequencies should increase the dissociation reaction: 2 H2O = H3O+ plus OH-. The proton (H+) migrates between water molecules; H+ plus H2O = H3O+ , giving the hydronium (H3O+) a lifetime of about 1.5E-13 seconds.

About anything from an Ne-2 light bulb to neon tubing or fluorescent lightbulbs immersed in water, might show O-U or "CF" effects.

Spiking the water with soluble radioisotopes may show Remediation also.

Regards,     Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 15:24:59 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 15:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: 12 Jul 97 18:17:34 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Depends on how you define "cheap" Resent-Message-ID: <"xEwog1.0.cU5.-B0op" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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To: Vortex

I sent a response to Horace Heffner comments, which has not come back here yet. Anyway, here is another minor thought. Horace wrote:

     It seems to me important to the field to  look at and if possible
     improve calorimetry, thermometry, and flow measurement, especially if it
     can be done cheaply, which I believe it can. Scott's dual mode
     calorimeter is a good step in that direction, and answers many of the
     old arguments strewn throughout the s.p.f archives.

I wrote that I am afraid it cannot be done cheaply, good calorimeters always cost a lot. I hasten to add that this depends on what you call "cheap" and "expensive." Chris Tinsley and I define any component over $100 as expensive, and a calorimeter that costs $1000 as a lavish extravagance. If your idea of "cheap" is $10,000 then you can easily go beyond the 1-watt standard I described. It's nothing.

I believe "Scott's dual mode" refers to the technique of monitoring both cell temperature and flow Delta T. Horace thinks this answers many old s.p.f.
arguments. It does indeed, but I hope all readers understand that Scott did not invent the technique; everyone does it this way. In every major experiment I know of both temperatures are monitored. Other, related techniques are common. For example, McKubre has a cell heater that varies to compensate as joule heat and CF heat increase and decrease. Excess heat can be derived from the cell heater power consumption. The inlet and outlet flow temperatures are always extremely close. My point is, the experimental literature addresses all of the objections raised by the s.p.f. skeptics, and it address a whole slew of other stuff they never thought of. McKubre knows more about calorimetry than the whole s.p.f. gang put together. With all due respect, he knows lots more than Scott Little. And Fleischmann knows more than God.

- Jed

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 16:24:24 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:17:24 -0700 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:17:15 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com> From: Scott Little <little@eden.com>
Subject: Re: Depends on how you define "cheap" Resent-Message-ID: <"FgB5r1.0.624.321op" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 06:17 PM 7/12/97 EDT, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>I believe "Scott's dual mode" refers to the technique of monitoring both cell
>temperature and flow Delta T.

In essence, yes, but you've given me an excuse to explain it again...<g>  

In our dual-method calorimeter the entire experiment is contained in an insulated enclosure which is further housed in a outer, constant temperature enclosure.  The total amount of heat being evolved by the experiment is determined by measuring the delta-T across the walls of the inner enclosure.
Fans on the inside and outside of these walls ensure that the air is reasonably well stirred and a total of 6 temperature probes, 3 inside and 3 outside, provide average air temperatures for the delta-T calculation.  The heat output is determined via an empirical calibration that was developed using resistive heaters and includes a correction term for the heat input from the inside stirring fans.

Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 19:09:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 19:08:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Missing Alkali Metals in Sea Water?
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 02:06:24 +0000
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To Vortex:

Some Sea Water (Light) Trivia.

The Solar insolation is about 1 kw/meter^2, of this 4-8% is reflected.
About 50% is in the infrared (greater than 800 nanometers,ie., photons less than 1.5 ev)most of this is absorbed in the first meter of depth.

20% percent is in the UV below 400 nanometers (3.1 ev or more photons), however, some of this UV radiation may penetrate tens of meters.
A narrow spectrum of blue-green radiation representing about 10% of the insolation is measurable at 600 meters depth. However, at 50 meters depth the "insolation-irradiance" has dropped to 1.0 watt/meter^2 and at 300 meters depth is about a microwatt/meter^2. Still good enough for "moonlighting" during the full moon?  :-) The dark adapted eye can see one blue-green photon.

In the range of 400 nanometers to 620 nanometers (3.1 to 2.02 ev) the attenuation coefficient for 25 to 50 meters depth, ranges from 0.098 to 0.121.

Conclusion: If Sunlight is effecting "CF" type transmutations-reactions of some of the Alkali metals (Lithium and Potassium in particular) in the World's oceans, the reactions must be occurring in the first few meters, or less.

Regards,    Frederick



  

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 20:54:26 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 20:52:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net> Subject: The Fifth Element
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 03:50:55 +0000
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Gnorts, fellow Vortexaphiles,

I met Ron Kovac at ISNE3 and have developed an interest in his experimental results showing production of an element with atomic mass 5, although I have only two papers he wrote.  This experiment seems within the reaches of some budgets of individuals possibly reading this and was reportedly replicated at MIT.  I would like to see some posts from people who have well founded opinions on his claims, with references please.

Excuse me if I missed earlier discussions of this topic.  If this is as real as Arata & Jhung's CF work showing gas annealed from their Pd cathode with 4He/D2 ratio between 0.1 and 0.5 with anomalous He isotopic ratio, I am even more mystified than ever as to how the scientific community can regard low energy nuclear reactions as impossible (or simply taboo?).  

Herd instinct rules?  He who moos gets the moolah?  If so, then better scientific methods are moot because the problem is ignorance caused by fear of ostracism.  The notion that scientists would welcome some such new and startling facts then has to be put in the context that they are first given permission to believe them. When the consequences of believing the wrong things is known, objectivity gets painful and seems fruitless.

In the mean time, some producer gets an idea for another Bruce Willis movie (The Fifth Element) and reality gets introduced to the masses through fiction (The Saint, etc.), which  maintains a fictional mystique for the scientific evidence.


Ed Wall  

"People should not be able to raise questions and erode people's moral authority in this country."  (Bill Clinton on videotape, commenting on our 1st Ammendment rights that he has sworn to uphold.)

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 12 21:13:06 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 21:09:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Water"Cartridge" Experiment
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 04:07:50 +0000
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To Vortex:

Final thought before retiring to watch Al Bundy (my idol). :-)

Fill a metal tube, 316 or 304 stainless, with water and some lithium or sodium hydroxide, or carbonate.Seal and size tube suitably for a pressure of 3600 psig at 706 deg F.

Use a high current (500 amps plus) to resistance heat the tube.

I did something like this with a stove poker on my dad's "A" battery for his battery powered radio ca. 1940. He wasn't particularly pleased with my discovery.   :-)

I think a thermocouple arrangement for differential thermal analysis would be in order.

Regards,     Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 13 04:06:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 04:05:21 -0700 X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 06:57:04 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham
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At 12:11 AM 7/12/97 -0800, Horace wrote:
>At 5:14 PM 7/11/97, Chris Tinsley wrote:
>>
>>"Personally,  I think you guys have been lulled into some kind of bliss
>>by the tranquility of vortex.  Just because you all post your same old
>>opinions without massive objection (rejection) here dosn't make the old
>>s.p.f arguments go away.  Posting your old arguments here does not mean
>>there were none or will be none if a positive result is achieved.
>>Almost every report on s.p.f was attacked based on calorimetry (what
>>else was there)?  That means flow or temperature measurement.  What else
>>is there to flowing calorimetry?  M dot delta T vs I*V. Pretty simple
>>huh?  Yet millions have been spent on it."
>>
>>I'm probably being unusually dense today, but can you show any
>>relationship between my comment and your response?
>>
>>Chris
>
>The point of it all is that a replicatable, reliable, repeatable,
>anassailable overunity experiment, no matter how small the margin, *is* the
>holy grail.  Once reliable results can be obtained, progress should be made
>incrementally.  If it is practical all the better, but that is not
>necessary for it to be a momentous discovery.  I agree that small COPs
>(near 1) can be argued to be some artefact, unless techniques are employed
>that are irrefutable.  On s.p.f. even very large COPs are "refutable".
>That is my point. 

  s.p.f is a joke; because like vortex the bad science drives out the good.

   -------- NOTA BENE ------> If you have data, submit it to peer review.

   There is much cold fusion data which has surmounted that hurdle.
  

  ================================================================


> It seems to me important to the field to  look at and if
>possible improve calorimetry, thermometry, and flow measurment, especially
>if it can be done cheaply, which I believe it can.  Scott's dual mode
>calorimeter is a good step in that direction, and answers many of the old
>arguments strewn throughout the s.p.f archives. 


  Scott has a somewhat noisy calorimeter compared to what he could have if he engineered a more environmentally insensitive (confer his own posts and data) i.e. a multiring, system to separate the temps used to derive his data from the
room temperature.  The recent threads confirm this weakness.

   Therefore, changing the thermometer is not going to help, because the problems are not thermometry (unless it is vertical flow).  

  Flow calorimetry has a problem if vertical and if bouyant forces exist IF that overly simple equation is used.  However, except for that calorimetry is not the problem.

  Noise can be a problem, but it need not be if measured.

  Best wishes.

   Dr. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 13 04:12:10 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 03:59:38 -0700 X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 06:58:00 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: Crystal delta T thermometer Resent-Message-ID: <"6Foq_1.0.05.OKBop"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 05:53 PM 7/10/97 -0800, Horace wrote:
>At 7:30 PM 7/10/97, Chris Tinsley wrote:
>[snip]
>>
>>I am impressed by Scott's equipment, but the simple fact is that any
>>excess which would be invisible to my calorimeter is not of any
>>practical interest, and would in any case be argued to be some artefact.
>>So I would say that I just don't see the point of it all.
>>
>>Chris
>
>Personally,  I think you guys have been lulled into some kind of bliss by
>the tranquility of vortex.  Just because you all post your same old
>opinions without massive objection (rejection) here dosn't make the old
>s.p.f arguments go away.  Posting your old arguments here does not mean
>there were none or will be none if a positive result is achieved. 


  First, SPF is irrelevant, since the bad science pushes out the good science.    Suggest that you go for a walk to a library.

  Second, peer review is the way, and many of those who post on SPF dont apparently read the literature, or science books, anyway.

   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)

 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 13 04:04:12 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 04:01:33 -0700 X-Sender: mica@world.std.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 06:59:58 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> Subject: Re: Crystal delta T thermometer References: <v01530500afeab777bfee@[199.237.131.241]> Resent-Message-ID: <"QWBAT1.0.QD.CMBop"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 10:17 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Barry wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>> 
>
>> 
>> Scott's frustrations with doing accurate temperature measurements for
>> calorimetry are not a new kind of problem to cold fusion research.
>> ... Finding a definitve method is certainly worth some thinking 
>
>Beg to differ. Accurate temperature measurements are a minor 
>problem in CF research---the real problem is that the device
>Scott is testing does not "work". A byproduct of the fact the 
>the device does not work is that Scott has plenty of time on his
>hands to observe minute fluctations in his system parameters. But
>to fixate on this is to lose the forrest for the trees...
>

  Totally correct.

  Furthermore, thermometry is not the problem, and in fact some of the ideas put forth here may actually leak more heat to the environment giving rise to higher noise levels.  It may not be considered by the sensor (and leads, and control resistor, etc) alters not only the total mass of the inner comparment, but offers venue for heat leakage, and potential contamination.

  Best wishes.

   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)


 
 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 13 04:24:06 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 04:18:23 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Water"Cartridge" Experiment Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:18:07 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"IQSD_3.0.7k1.-bBop" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 08:05 AM 7/13/97 +0000, Geoff Egel wrote:
>At 04:07 AM 7/13/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>To Vortex:
>>
>>Final thought before retiring to watch Al Bundy (my idol). :-)

>I fancy Peg myself

You have excellent taste. I was referring to Al as a role model. :-)
>>
>>Fill a metal tube, 316 or 304 stainless, with water and some 
>>lithium or potassium hydroxide, or carbonate.Seal and size tube suitably 
>>for a pressure of 3600 psig at 706 deg F.
>>
>>Use a high current (500 amps plus) to resistance heat the tube.
>>
>>I did something like this with a stove poker on my dad's "A" battery
>>for his battery powered radio ca. 1940. He wasn't particularly pleased
>>with my discovery.   :-)
>>
>>I think a thermocouple arrangement for differential thermal analysis
>>would be in order.
>>
>>Regards,     Frederick
>>
>>
>I would like to hear what this experiment is designed to accomplish
>( just curious)

Good question, Geoff.  :-)

The intent is to see if temperatures of 375 C (or more) can produce photons of 2.02 ev or so and create enough protons "autoionization" in the water to get any "CF" activity going between the protons of the water and the Lithium or Potassium.

The high pressure (3610 psig critical pressure) of the water is more of an artifact than anything else. If you double the absolute temperature-pressure to a bright red-orange heat and 7220 psig you should be getting the full range of photons that are produced in the P&F-CETI cells.

If it serves no other purpose, negative results could infer what is not occurring in "CF" cells.

Regards,   Frederick
>
>Geoff
>http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel
>http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135/
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 13 06:23:57 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 06:17:37 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Plasmas
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:17:28 +0000
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To Vortex:

Finally figured out what I was getting at with the barrage of proposed experiments.

The bottom line is a high pressure-low-temperature "plasma". Is this not what the P&F-Ceti cells actually are?

With 3 to 6 volts required to get the electrode reactions, and the 2.02 ev to 5.8 ev energies involved in the chemical reactions, either in dissociation or recombination the cells are a cold plasma.

Given that, direct heating approaches such as a low voltage arc or heating a mix of water and Alkali metal salts (with some palladium thrown in for good measure) with super-critical water may be a good way to go.

I've years of experience with sub-critical water and biomass conversion using Akali metal catalysts with some interesting results.  There is a research project at The University of Texas at Austin, (and D.O.E.) using super-critical water for coal gasification.

Since the Hot Fusion folks have about played out the possibilities of hot low-density plasmas, why not take a look-see at some "cold" high density ones.   Chances for a good R.O.I. energy-wise look a lot better here.  :-)

Regards,     Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 13 08:14:56 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:11:47 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:11:17 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: charge clusters
Resent-Message-ID: <"NUJ4_2.0.ac7.o0Fop" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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(Eric Hammond writes)

A few years back you were working on extracting energy from charge clusters. How did
this line of research work out?
......................................................................
Good!  It's the only way to go. Charge clusters are amazing.
Some of the things that happen within a bose condensates are:

1.  Zero Electrical resistance
2.  Zero resistance to flow in a superfluid 3.  Heat travels at sonic velocities.
4.  Spin it and a gravitomagnetic field is produced.
5.  The 'frequencies" of the wavefuctions of matter downshift producting
     macro quantum effects.

Do something else to it and out pops unlimited electrical energy.  Horrace you are not even close!  Patent applied for.

Frank Znidarsic


Frank Znidarsic

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 13 09:17:04 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:15:20 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:15:13 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little <little@eden.com>
Subject: Noisy calorimeter
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At 06:57 7/13/97 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>  Scott has a somewhat noisy calorimeter compared to what he could have....

Correct.  To improve this, I am considering an "active insulation" system for my latest calorimeter in which the Dewar (passive insulation) would be surrounded by a Cu jacket equipped  with Peltier devices and temperature sensors driven by a servo controller so that the jacket is kept at the same temperature as the interior of the Dewar...i.e. zero delta-T across the walls.

Right now, I'm characterizing the two new thermistor probes I built.  At Mitchell's suggestion I'm checking them very carefully over a wide range of temperatures against two precision glass thermometers.  I'll share the detailed results when I'm done but I can already tell you they look pretty darned good!

Of course, I'd rather have an experiment that produced 1 watt of excess heat with an input of around 5 watts.  That would be a nice robust signal even in my present system and I could focus on making it bigger instead of tweaking the last few percent error out of my calorimeter.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 13 14:09:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:33:47 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Free Energy Demo
References: <970703211303_76016.2701_JHC61-1 CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"30HJ1.0.Yg3.MEKop"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
> Gnorts, Vorts,
> 
> Anyone know more about this?  Any plans to attend?
> 
> Terry (isn't hackensack a kid's game?)
> 
>         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
>                                                 PRESS RELEASE
> 
>                 THE INTERNATIONAL TESLA ELECTRIC COMPANY
> 
> Where:  Empire Blvd, South Hackensack, New Jersey
> When: Free Public Showing of A Free Electricity Device On, Sat. July
> 12th at noon

Is it done? Anyone heard about it?

Regards,

Hamdi Ucar

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 13 11:09:10 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:05:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: mrandall@mail.earthlink.net
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net> Subject: Re: charge clusters
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At 11:11 AM 7/13/97 -0400, Frank Znidarsic wrote:
>(Eric Hammond writes)
>
>A few years back you were working on extracting energy from charge
>clusters. How did
>this line of research work out?
>......................................................................
>Good!  It's the only way to go. Charge clusters are amazing.
>Some of the things that happen within a bose condensates are:
>
>1.  Zero Electrical resistance
>2.  Zero resistance to flow in a superfluid
>3.  Heat travels at sonic velocities.
>4.  Spin it and a gravitomagnetic field is produced.
>5.  The 'frequencies" of the wavefuctions of matter downshift producting
>     macro quantum effects.
>
>Do something else to it and out pops unlimited electrical energy.  Horrace
>you are not even close!  Patent applied for.
>
>Frank Znidarsic
>
>
>Frank Znidarsic
>
Hi Frank,

Your discovery sounds interesting! Did you build a working unit? Can you describe how it works and if you can build it with off-the-shelf parts? Any cost estimate for a 10kWp unit for powering a house?  Any time estimate when your patent will be given so you can talk about it or start manufacturing for sale?

Best Regards,
Michael Randall

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 13 12:50:27 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:48:56 -0700
From: Eric Hammond <ehammond pacbell.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: charge clusters
References: <199707131805.LAA10461 norway.it.earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"-i3jc3.0.nm1.x3Jop"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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There was this guy named Joe Papp, a Hungarian came over in 1958 , strange guy claimed he could use noble gases as a fuel .  Everyone laughed until he demonstrated a gun that fired projectiles using spark discharge in a chamber filled with nobel gases. Latter  he went on to make a engine using discharges into nobel gas. He died and lost the patient  and some of his followers were trying to get the technology working again . I saw one of the labs once.  A guy was moving a single piston fixed inn al cylinder  with a mixture of noble gasses.   They were getting a log  of motion in the cylinder from a low voltage discharge .   Ken Shoulders said they were creating the charge clusters in the cylinder with a low voltage discharge.

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From: "Thomas N. Claytor" <claytor_t_n lanl.gov> Subject: Re: Single-Crystal Pd?
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I believe Ed Storms tried a single crystal Pd with null results early on in the game and he was looking for tritium and not excess heat. Pd when loaded with H or D will form a large amount (>10^17 /cm3) of dislocations. Thus, the single crystal entity you started with will look not so regular after loading.  The experiments that show this were done on, basically, very tiny single crystal Pd specimens in a transmission electron microscope. 

Tom.  

At 01:51 PM 7/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Gnorts,
>
>A question that shows my naivete wrt CF history, but has anyone tried
>single-crystal palladium in electrolysis experiments, expensive though it may
>be?
>
>Hal Puthoff
>
>
http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm Thomas N. Claytor	Claytor_t_n lanl.gov
Los Alamos National Laboratory
ESA-MT, MS C914
Los Alamos NM, 87545
505-667-6216 voice
505-665-7176 fax

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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Thermistor characterization
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Results of this study can now be viewed on our web page under Water-Flow Calorimetry.  After plotting it, I was a bit surprised by the noticeable difference in sensitivity between the two devices I'm now using but, fortunately, it works out to cause very acceptable errors.

In short, the approach I've been using all along for delta-T work was vindicated.  Just correct for the offset between the two device you're using and then assume that their sensitivities are sufficiently similar to provide a decent measure of the delta-T.

Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: R.I.P. Guy Murchie
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To: Vortex

The New York Times reports that Guy Murchie died on July 8, 1997 at age 90.
He was a noted author, aviator, philospher, and -- I might add -- an early supporter of cold fusion, and a remarkable human being. His books included "Men on the Horizon" (1932), "Song of the Sky" (1954), "Music of the Spheres" (1961) and "The Seven Mysteries of Life" (1978). We shall miss him.

- Jed

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Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:39:07 +0900
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From: Elliot Kennel <kennel nhelab.iae.or.jp> Subject: Re:  Single Crystal Pd
Cc: Puthoff aol.com
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Hal Puthoff wrote:  
>>... has anyone tried single-crystal palladium in electrolysis experiments, expensive though it may be?<<

        Yes, we tried it and there are probably some other labs that did also.  What happens is that the sample loads non-uniformly (i.e., there is a concentration gradient from the surface), which imparts strain to the lattice.  As the sample transitions between alpha and beta phases, what happens is that the sample tends to fracture extensively along the crystal planes, and the sample quickly leaks.  So this seems to be a good way to waste a lot of money. 
        However, there is an approach which might be viable.  If you look at DeNinno et al.'s paper from ICCF-6 (p. 192), at high pressure and temperature, the phase change is avoided. Under those conditions it might be that you can get very high loading and very good long range order without fracturing the sample.  Some of us have talked about such an experiment but to my knowledge no one has followed up.

Best regards,
Elliot Kennel
Sapporo Japan

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Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:45:38 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:51:33 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
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Before you go "off to meet the needs of family life", consider leaving vortex-l in your autosubscriber :) a once a week or two check in can be a real 'sanity?' help!  especially if your considering kids to college now days!.. :) Touching Home-Base if you will.
Couldn't snip any below, but have a neat 'experiment' you can do in your kitchen before you "go".. try it and maybe you'll see what I mean about NOT PANICing in face of global warming. (goto end text)(i promise to extra- snip next time:)

On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Horace Heffner wrote:


> At 9:21 AM 7/12/97, Chris Tinsley wrote:
> >As to the Cydonia stuff, were
> >we not just having a bit of fun?  Is that so very terrible?  I've
> >worked damned hard for quite a few years on CF-related matters, and I
> >see exactly no harm in relaxing occasionally - quite a few of us seem
> >to have enjoyed the discussion.
> >
> >Chris
> 
> Yes. Fun is great, and I had my fun also - with the Angel of Europa.  In
> fact, it's all been fun for me these past years.  Thanks!  I was just
> hoping maybe I could get something useful done in my last few days here.
> I'm signing off now to go meet the demands of family life.
> 
> As I do I'll leave you with a quote from Wind Energy Weekly:
> 
> "OHIO STATE TEAM DETAILS STRONG CLIMATE EVIDENCE
> 
>         A team of Ohio State University researchers said April
> 3 that its research provides "some of the most compelling
> evidence yet for recent global warming."
> 
>         Ice caps in alpine regions throughout the tropics and
> subtropics are melting at "a phenomenal rate," the
> researchers said, while last year, other scientists
> discovered that the freezing point in the upper atmosphere
> has been gaining altitude.
> 
>         These findings may be among the best evidence to date
> that the planet is experiencing a recent and rapid warming,
> Ellen Mosley-Thompson, a professor of geography at Ohio
> State, told attendees at the annual meeting of the
> Association of American Geographers in Fort Worth, Tex.
> Mosley-Thompson said the resulting climatic and
> environmental changes will have "massive impacts on human
> populations around the globe."
> 
>         She cited the following recent scientific observations:
> 
> o       The edge of the Qori Kalis glacier that flows off the
> Quelccaya ice cap high in the Peruvian Andes Mountains
> was retreating at a rate of four meters (13 feet)
> annually between 1963 and 1978. By 1995, that rate had
> grown to 30 meters (99 feet) each year.
> 
> o       The freezing level in the Earth's atmosphere -- the
> height where the air temperature reaches 0 degrees C --
> has been gaining altitude since 1970 at a rate of 4.5
> meters (nearly 15 feet) each year.
> 
> o       Ice cores taken from the Dunde ice cap in eastern Tibet
> have shown that the last 50 years were the warmest in
> recorded history. A similar ice core record from the
> Huascaran ice cap in Peru has shown a strong warming
> over the last 200 years."
> 
>         "Most of the evidence for warming that we see in these
> high alpine ice caps is in regions that are already water
> stressed," Mosley-Thompson said. "These tropical areas are
> where most of the planet's population lives and where
> subsistence agriculture is incapable of feeding the
> population. And in the future, the greatest increase in
> population will occur here." ...
> 
> ...  "We're making massive changes to the climate
> on an unprecedented scale in some parts of the globe," she
> said. "This kind of discussion has to find its way into the
> general conversation."
> 
>         For further information, contact Ellen-Mosley Thompson,
> phone (614) 292-6531, e-mail <thompson.4 osu.edu>."
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

Kitchen experiment: 
Take a glass (of water) ADD Solid OR Cracked ICE as FULL"as you can. (try to simulate a true 10%+ iceburg floating in water).
 You can add Ice first then water (makes no difference!).  Anyway bring your water level up as high as the reverse mencus line will let you go.
Use an eye-dropper or even your wetted finger-tip and fudge a bit and let it "OVERFLOW" (world flood-over) if you will. :) Put it in a water tank (upto but not OVER the top), Put a Hair Dryer on it (heat-heat - ohhh!). 
Then WATCH! (leave it on the table - or leave it in the refridgerator or where ever..)  RESULT:  No matter how "High" you stack the ICE (10% is a pretty good replicate in IceBurgs) IT WILL "NEVER OVERFLOW!  CAN'T! Frozen water occupies MORE area than liquid."  Life 101.
-----------------------
{See????}.... 
So, don't panic about college, (you'll make it!:) and DON'T PANIC about Global warming..
------------------------
  As the glaicer's recede, they are just ADDING MOISTER to the atmosphere, WHICH create's CLOUDS which COOLS things DOWN (not UP!!) {if we COULD (doubtfully) Raise the Temp: the deserts could rebloom!} Cool (literally) .. :)

------------
REF: (national geographics S. Pole / N. Pole 'land' geography) so, Also GRAB a World Globe and CHECK OUT North Pole "LAND MASS" (none) and South Pole Land Mass (>~27%) and think about the ICE in the Glass Experiment..  Both North and South POLES (where MOST of the Ice *IS*) are *IN* Water!  Worst Case : post-melt : some dogg-paddleing polar bears, but I think I've seen where they already have that figured out in there migration habits. (they already have it covered (annually) : Many Clouds and RufferWeather!! as the melting/melted ice-caps evaporate. MUCH DARKER, MUCH COLDER - MUCH MORE HUMIDITY.... BRRRRRRRrrrrrrr  . Then we would Want Global warming, But Mother Nature has had this FIGURED out for 100,000's of years if not MORE.  Trust her. She REcycles all the time! 
I watch my "camel ciggereete" smoke
drift away and ponder how this 'Compares' to a Volcanic++ Eruption (ahh, now there's Global WARMING! .... no, wait a moment, that made Clouds TOO... sooo 
COLD we lost the Dinosaurs -eh??  .. (ok, 1: Quit Smoking) 2: ARE WE REALLY
THINKING 'GLOBALLY' (universally) HERE??

Horace, Best of Luck on your family Time :)!
We'll MISS YOU TILL YOU (hav'ta) RETURN! :)!

We're All lucky just to be Alive   -Yah? :)!

"Ohio State Team Details Strong Global Evidence" ...'cool!'

EARTH WINS!!
If your right, I predict lot's of life giving rain and "Cooler Temps," because I don't think we're 'spit' to a volocano or mother nature, though we would like to think we are.  (ok, no spit.. I'll give up -chaw-tobaccy- too.)


respectfully submited,

se
------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------ -=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100 ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

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From: Elliot Kennel <kennel nhelab.iae.or.jp> Subject: Re:  Isotope ratios prove ET origin?
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Robert Stirniman wrote:
        
>>A presentation claims to provide physical evidence of extra-terrestrially manufactured material..based primarily on the existence of isotopic ratios which are different than the "natural" amounts found in our solar system...<<

        Dr. Merriman has already pointed out that Ge-75 is unstable.  More generally, it has been pointed out several times in this forum that isotope measurements are not reliable unless a) the measurements are made using a reliable method such as high resolution SIMS instrument or neutron activation analysis with a nuclear reactor and high purity germanium counter and b)the persons making the measurements are competent. 
        Cheap, low resolution SIMS cannot distinguish between, say, FeO and Ge-72.  So the first step is to establish the credibility of the analysis.
        But of course some people will believe what they want to believe.

Best regards,
Elliot Kennel
Sapporo Japan

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At 04:07 AM 7/13/97 +0000, you wrote:
>To Vortex:
>
>Final thought before retiring to watch Al Bundy (my idol). :-)
>I fancy Peg myself
>
Fill a metal tube, 316 or 304 stainless, with water and some 
>lithium or sodium hydroxide, or carbonate.Seal and size tube suitably 
>for a pressure of 3600 psig at 706 deg F.
>
>Use a high current (500 amps plus) to resistance heat the tube.
>
>I did something like this with a stove poker on my dad's "A" battery
>for his battery powered radio ca. 1940. He wasn't particularly pleased
>with my discovery.   :-)
>
>I think a thermocouple arrangement for differential thermal analysis
>would be in order.
>
>Regards,     Frederick
>
>
>I would like to hear what this experiment is design to accomplish ( just curious)

Geoff
http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135/

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From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net> Subject: Re: charge clusters
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At 12:48 PM 7/13/97 -0700, Eric Hammond wrote:
>There was this guy named Joe Papp, a Hungarian came over in 1958 ,
>strange guy claimed he could use noble gases as a fuel .  Everyone
>laughed until he demonstrated a gun that fired projectiles using spark
>discharge in a chamber filled with nobel gases. Latter  he went on to
>make a engine using discharges into nobel gas. He died and lost the
>patient  and some of his followers were trying to get the technology
>working again . I saw one of the labs once.  A guy was moving a single
>piston fixed inn al cylinder  with a mixture of noble gasses.   They
>were getting a log  of motion in the cylinder from a low voltage
>discharge .   Ken Shoulders said they were creating the charge clusters
>in the cylinder with a low voltage discharge.
>
Hi Eric,

Your description above is available from, Joe Papp's USA Patent 3,670,494 issued 6/20/70. 

Another similar nobel gas patent 3,977,191 issued 8/31/76 for Robert Britt.
Both are also described from the pamphlet "Perpetual Motion the Ultimate Machines, Devices that Produce Power and Make their Own Fuel Too." 

I didn't know of Ken Shoulders theory of charge clusters was related to these devices. Thanks for the info. These devices look workable but is complicated with lots of machined parts. It makes the SMOT and RMOD look like a cakewalk in comparision. Looking forward for my SMOT kit and to Greg's RMOD design information.

Best Regards,
Michael Randall 

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From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Photo Alchemy?
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 05:50:00 +0000
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To Vortex:

IF light somewhere in the infrared to near ultraviolet is "catalyzing" the tunneling of protons/deuterons into a nucleus the following experiment might be worth a try.

To get as high as possible number of protons or deuterons in a given volume of water, a mix of a chloride (like LiCl, KCl, or heavy metal chlorides) and hydrochloric acid could be put in a quartz tube in the right proportions.

The mix would then be exposed to the light from sources suitable for generating the desired spectrum and flux of photons.

Commercially available mercury discharge tubes can generate UV down to 254 nanometers. Hydrogen discharges can get down to 91 nanometers.
Phosphor coatings on these can provide a wide spectrum of photon wavelengths.

Regards,     Frederick 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 02:28:14 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 02:22:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Butcher <michael@enterprise.net> To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: RE: charge clusters
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:14:03 +0100
Encoding: 34 TEXT
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>----------
From: 	FZNIDARSIC aol.com[SMTP:FZNIDARSIC@aol.com] Sent: 	13 July 1997 12:11
To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: 	charge clusters

(Eric Hammond writes)

A few years back you were working on extracting energy from charge clusters. How did
this line of research work out?
......................................................................
Good!  It's the only way to go. Charge clusters are amazing.
Some of the things that happen within a bose condensates are:

1.  Zero Electrical resistance
2.  Zero resistance to flow in a superfluid 3.  Heat travels at sonic velocities.
4.  Spin it and a gravitomagnetic field is produced.
5.  The 'frequencies" of the wavefuctions of matter downshift producting
     macro quantum effects.

Do something else to it and out pops unlimited electrical energy.  Horrace you are not even close!  Patent applied for.

Frank Znidarsic>


Patent, patents, postulations, permutations, preparations may be, but is there any sign of a working product, in fact no, forget the "sign" bit, is there a working product ?


Mike Butcher

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 00:03:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Date:      Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:24:21 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" <peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: "vortex" <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com> Cc: "Peter Glueck" <peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro> Subject:   CETI's updating too long..
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          Dear Vortexers,

CETI's website <www.cleanenergy.com/~ceti> is updating for more than two weeks. Such a long silence can make CF's enemies happy, they can freely speculate on cathode plating of U and troubles with the beads and their new substitutes.
Can somebody ask Reding, Patterson or Ismert--what happens and when will be the new data available?
Thank you in advance,
Peter
-- 
dr. Peter Gluck

Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology         Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700           Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania                                  Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro 

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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: R.I.P. Guy Murchie
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 05:24:42 -0400
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I treasured two of Murchie's books - "Song of the Sky" and "Music of the Spheres". Both are still in my library. He was an extraordinary poet of man's reach through technology. We are still blessed with another, also a friend of CF, Arthur C. Clarke.

Mike Carrell


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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham, footnote Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 05:52:01 -0400
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A small footnote to Steve's salute to Horace and reassurance about global warming, melting ice caps and coastal flooding. 

He is quite right that water expands on freezing and that a glass of icewater filled to the brim will not overflow as the ice melts. Also true that the Arctic icepack floats on an ocean. However, much of the Antartic ice pack rests on a continent; so if it melts there will be a positive contribution to the world's ocean level. 

Also one shouldn't be too frightened by computer climate models. The last I heard, the current models can't even predict the formation of a single cloud. Further, clouds differ in their heat transfer characteristics, some reflecting the sun's energy, some trapping it. The late Carl Sagan was pushing the global warming boogeyman using models which assumed the Earth was a bare ball, no oceans (great science!!). 

There is a faction of intellectuals and politicians who will use portents of disasters as an excuse to seize regulatory power and shape our civilization to some private vision. The consequences can be very costly.
The Delaney Amendment, which sought to ban from the environment every last molecule of any chemical which could  under any condition of overdose seem to induce cancer in any animal, is one such example. 

(If one follows the thoughts of Graham Hancock, the fabled civilization of Atlantis is buried under that ice cap, moved from a mostly temperate zone to the pole by a crustal shift some 11-12,000 years ago; see Charles Hapgood's books "Path of the Poles" and "Voyages of the Ancient Sea Kings".
Both are scholarly and detailed but out of print, should be available from libraries. However, the essence of Hapgood's work is in Hancock's "Fingerprints of the Gods".)

Mike Carrell

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 05:15:28 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 05:13:55 -0700 Sender: jack@centuryinter.net
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:05:35 -0400
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham, still be bold References: <v01530502afed532b1123 [199.237.131.231]> Resent-Message-ID: <"Vnucx2.0.BP7.2WXop"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Horace Heffner wrote:

> 
> Yes. Fun is great, and I had my fun also - with the Angel of Europa.
> 
> ...
> 
> I'll leave you with a quote from Wind Energy Weekly:
> 
> A team of Ohio State University researchers said April
> 3 that its research provides "some of the most compelling
> evidence yet for recent global warming."
> 
> ...
> 
> Regards, Horace Heffner

Hi Horace,

I have really enjoyed your posts, and I hope you will continue.   Since energy is the focus of those who participate here, your information on global warming is of great interest.  There is evidence that we are on a long-term descent into an ice-ball world:

NOVA Online/Cracking the Ice Age/The Big Chill broadcast in Cleveland on 12-31-96.

The Big Chill by Kirk A. Maasch

During the past billion years, the Earth's climate has fluctuated between warm periods -
sometimes even completely ice-free - and cold periods, when glaciers scoured the continents.

...

Plate collisions disrupt these carbon fluxes in a variety of ways, some tending to elevate and some tending to lower the atmospheric carbon dioxide level.
It has been suggested that the Eocene, the early warm trend 55 million years ago,
was caused by elevated atmospheric
carbon dioxide and that a subsequent decrease in atmospheric carbon dioxide led to the cooling trend over the past 52 million years.  One mechanism proposed as a cause of this decrease in carbon dioxide is that mountain uplift lead to enhanced weathering of silicate rocks, and thus removal of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.

..., the collision of India and Asia led to the uplift of the Tibetan Plateau and the Himalayas. ...
The uplift may have caused both an increase in the global rate of chemical erosion, as well as erode fresh minerals that are rapidly transported to lower elevations, which are warmer and moister and allow chemical weathering to happen more efficiently. Through these mechanisms, then, it has been hypothesized that the tectonically driven uplift of the Tibetan Plateau and the Himalayas is the prime cause of the post-Eocene cooling trend.

Kirk A. Maasch is a professor at the University of Maine, in the Department of Geological Sciences.

In the NOVA broadcast, the principle proponent of this fascinating theory appeared to be Maureen Raymo, raymo mit.edu

Assistant Professor at MIT

Studies of past climate changes,
in particular the glacial-interglacial
cycles of recent ice ages; use of deep ocean sediment to reconstruct past changes in ocean chemistry, flora, and fauna to infer changes in ice volume, ocean circulation, global temperatures, and atmospheric CO2.
[end raymo.bio]

Humans appear to be the only fire-making animals; and, if there is anything to the Gaia hypotheis, Earth may have brought us forth to warm the place up.  Jack Smith X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 06:03:32 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 05:56:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham, still be bold Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:54:35 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"7Qr4X3.0.OE7.j7Yop" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 12:05 PM 7/14/97 +0000, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
>
>Humans appear to be the only fire-making animals;
>and, if there is anything to the Gaia hypotheis, Earth may
>have brought us forth to warm the place up.  Jack Smith
>
How about fireflies, or dragons, Jack?   :-)

Then there is the "Grand Dragon" of Nottingham, that started this episode.  He can stir up more fires than St. Elmo.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 07:47:42 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:44:07 -0700 From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:15:40 -0500
References: <m0wm1xA-0001GAC mirage.skypoint.com> 
	<33cae5dc.12741997 mail.eisa.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: dimensionsw
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On Jul 11, 10:40pm, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> It is also very interesting that the sphinx has a lion's body
> and a human face. This leaves me with the impression that both items
> may represent a mixing of races in our far past.

There are some great theories on the sphinx.  The one that has a lot of supporting data (but controversial none-the-less) is that it was built as an astrological marker to the beginning of the age of leo (approx 12,000 BC, we are in aquarius now).  It is directionally positioned to observe the exact location of the first rise of the sun in that solar precession of the zodiac.
 The "face" is believed to have been a modification many millenia later.

There is an interesting book that covers many pre-history phenominon called "Finger Prints of the Gods".  Dry at times but interesting because the author presents many available facts and draws very few conclusions for you.  Best of all, the author throws out the alien influence theories from the very beginning to more objectively present the data he spent 5-10 years accumulating (he's of the lost advanced human civilization from Antartica camp).  I am not predisposed to go in for this type of thing, but a friend recommended it to me, and the arguments proved very thought provoking and probable.  Diffinitive proof came up short, but usually does with these topics.

I you like that sort of thing, not a bad book to pick up.  Not just another crack pot.

-- 
Quote of the Day:  Success is the child of audacity.   -Benjamin Disraeli --
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 07:39:37 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:37:48 -0700 From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:21:40 -0500
References: <v01530501afecea4144ec [199.237.131.240]> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Carbon Lithium Hydrogen Arc for "CF" Experiment.
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On Jul 12,  3:05am, Horace Heffner wrote:

> Fredrick,
>
> I hope you keep posting all your interresting ideas, and that some of them
> trigger some experiements or ideas of one kind of another.

That is the best part about vortex.  Good ideas often come from strange places.
 8^)

-- 
Quote of the Day:  Success is the child of audacity.   -Benjamin Disraeli --
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 07:50:23 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:47:27 -0700 From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:40:03 -0500
References: <v01530502afed532b1123 [199.237.131.231]> 
	<33CA160F.276B79D mail.pc.centuryinter.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham, still be bold Resent-Message-ID: <"OK3_K3.0.RN6._lZop" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Jul 14,  7:07am, Taylor J. Smith wrote:

> Humans appear to be the only fire-making animals;
> and, if there is anything to the Gaia hypotheis, Earth may
> have brought us forth to warm the place up.

...and make plastic. <g>




-- 
Quote of the Day:  Success is the child of audacity.   -Benjamin Disraeli --
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 08:08:46 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:55:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall <ad502@iesun9.city.ac.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Mainly about Bauer's work
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Cohorts Vorts,

Just going to subscribe for a few days to say hello, give some progress info. and ask a few questions - and you never know, get angry and start a rant thread (!)

My patent has been published and its application number is PCT/GB96/03187 and publication number is WO 97/22408. I've arranged a meeting to see an expert in micro-encapsulation who likes the idea and thinks it is possible - I don't give him the full briefing of what I think is possible - he'll run without questioning. 

My method is always to keep people motivated, so whoever helps me I give shares in any royalities that might accrue. Also (rant mode, I fund myself and pay for my own experiments or foibles).

Much of the trouble, when one has to keep costs down, is that one has to take on board old farts (sorry adults much past there best), its a case of social work, cajoling and leadership to get anything productive from the biddies. I guess it just a case of compensating for their loss of intellectual fecundity (or is that intellectual impotence, Heh Heh Heh). 

Anyway this bloke knows what is possible, can get lab space, knows the literature and colleagues and I bet he'd like to publish in good journals if he gets a good project to round off his career nicely.


Now Bauer's work:

The paper about cycling fields - he doesn't consider field energy, how can these fields be made to cycle without energy input. It can be shown that the energy gain from charge falling in this field doesn't compensate. If the field is somehow oscillating in some cavity there must be dissapation and conventional second law considerations come into play.

I find with Bauer that he doesn't unpack his arguments and extend them: case in point - if you challenge the first law, it is not enough to supposedly give a proof and not tell where you suspect energy (as we conventionally see it) is being created etc. As I see it, you have two choices:- energy is being created (maybe some exotic process like zpe) or that the heat energy in the system is being recycled. 


The first paper on the 'Incompatibility of Plank and Gibbs formulation of Second Law': it isn't made clear if the process is cyclical (ie. not one shot) how do you get from point 3 back to points 1 and 1' either side of the solubility gap?


Oh, yeah just some vintage rant mode for you:

The New-Labour gov believes that 16 year-olds aren't old enough to smoke, but they're old enough to have a fag - if you get what I mean!

Sorry, I have a problem with arbitrary authority when it doesn't stand up to logical scrutiny.

Oh yeah SMOT'ters don't get me wrong, I'm keeping an open mind - care to tell me how you achieve industrial level scale up once you close the loop.

Oh yeah, NASA kick's butt! Well done Pathfinder!
 
Remi.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 11:08:44 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:00:26 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Field Biased Photo Alchemy?
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:03:55 +0000
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To Vortex:

Using spaced concentric quartz tubes filled with H2O/D2O plus LiCl, KCl, and heavy metal chlorides, and hydrochloric acid, sealed at the ends, with an inlet and outlet ports,and with a wire screen with openings sized for 80% or so optical transmission placed on the inner and outer surfaces, with a light source capable of wavelengths from infrared to ultraviolet placed on the inner axis, if a voltage of up to several kilovolts is applied to the "screens" the field should aggregate the free positive and negative charges at the surfaces where the screens are of opposite potential.

This might keep the protons/deuterons "Bare", allowing easier "tunneling catalysis" by the photons and subsequent "CF" and/or transmutation of the lithium, or potassium, and/or the heavy metals.

Regards,     Frederick


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 11:09:25 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:00:34 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Carbon Lithium Hydrogen Arc for "CF" Experiment.
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:12:19 +0000
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At 02:21 PM 7/14/97 +0000, John Steck  wrote:
>On Jul 12,  3:05am, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>> Fredrick,
>>
>> I hope you keep posting all your interresting ideas, and that some of them
>> trigger some experiements or ideas of one kind of another.
>
>That is the best part about vortex.  Good ideas often come from strange places.
> 8^)

Nice thing about New Mexico. You are only a stranger here once, but, you could be strange for a lifetime.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
>-- 
>Quote of the Day:  Success is the child of audacity.   -Benjamin Disraeli
>--
>John E. Steck 
>Prototype Tooling
>Motorola Inc.
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 08:55:13 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:53:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:45:19 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Sound Waves for Refrigeration
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A while back I made mention reading of a new type of cooling device for "greener" refrigerators.  Thankfully, patience proved my self suspecting madness to be false.  The latest issue (5 July 1997) of New Scientist (a Brit publication) has a nice little mention of the technology being developed at Purdue University in the States.  I think the topic came up in discussions with Ross Tessien regarding possible resonance experiments.

Don't really feel like typing the whole thing out, but put simply, it is a twist on the thermodynamics of compressing and decompressing an inert gas with sound (300 hz / approx 180 decibels).  Rather clever setup where the heating and cooling do not cancel each other out resulting in a temperature differential of 37C on one end and -13C on the other.  Sound insulation brings the ambient noise to standard compressor levels.

I can fax someone with a text scanner the article if there is interest.


-- 
Quote of the Day:  Success is the child of audacity.   -Benjamin Disraeli --
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 09:33:51 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:07:27 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:07:00 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: charge clusters
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Patent, patents, postulations, permutations, preparations may be, but is there any sign of a working product, in fact no, forget the "sign" bit, is there a working product ?
....................................................................

No I do not yet have one.  I did do experiments that seem to point out that I am on the correct path.  I need more resources to continue.  I need that patent to get the resources.  I know this sounds like the same old story.
 Perhaps it is, time will tell.
One thing that is different about my story is that I do not claim to have a working model which I cannot show to anyone.

As for Shoulder's electron clusters not being a Bose condensate, let us wait until Miley's Swimming Electron Theory is completed and published.  I believe that he will identify the Swimming Electrons to be a Bose Condensate!



Frank Znidarsic                 fznidarsic aol.com 481 Boyer St.                   http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html Johnstown, Pa.   15906


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X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 09:49:17 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:38:39 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:38:00 -0400 (EDT) To: herman antioch-college.edu, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: no I have not
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No I do not have a working model of my cryogenic technology yet.  I do, however, know (at least in my mind) exactly what to do!  Did you all see the show connections.  I've been to:

Power Gen and spoke with Miley and Patterson The Institute for Advanced Studies and spoke with Puthoff Write Patterson and spoke with their scientists The ANS meeting in Orlando
NASA Marshall where I met with David Noever.
Stenger's Lab
To visit with Edmond Storms in Santa Fee To Los Alamos with Yury Potapov and Ron McFee.
In Detroit with Yury Potapov and Peter Glueck.

Each time I learned a little more.  I believe that I now am in a unique position.
Let me read from my 1986 patent application 06/824,530..  This is where I started before I met anyone else.
..............................................................................
................
"The unique portion of the invention is the spinning of adjacent superconductive disks in order to convert gravitational flux into energy."

"..whereby gravitational and electromagnetic interaction between the said surfaces.."

"Applicant's work extends these ideas to include the gravitational force as well."

"The unique portion of the applicant's work is the reuslt of a merging of existing electromagnetic and gravitational theories."

"A new pattern of order between the forces begins to take place at low temperatures."

A nice picture of a spinning superconductive disk is rendered.

A letter from my lawyer says,
"Generator Using Rotating Superconductive Surfaces.."

A second letter from my lawyer reads,
"..pertaining to Converting Gravitational Flux to Electrical Energy"

..............................................................................
....

The patent application was rejected. Never the less, the June 1986 date speaks for itself.  It was many years before the Tampere results were discovered, before Pons and Fleishmann.    I believe that my 1986 patent application now has some at NASA a bit worried.

........................................................................

I'm at it again.  I seen much more in the last 12 years.  No, this time I not spinning disks.  Hopefully the patent will go through and we will not have to wait another 12 or so more years for others to rediscover the energetics of the process.

Take it for what it is worth.

Frank Znidarsic                 fznidarsic aol.com 481 Boyer St.                   http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html Johnstown, Pa.   15906


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X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 13:27:39 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:06:19 -0700 X-Sender: johmann@atlantic.net
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:06:05 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Kurt Johmann <johmann atlantic.net> Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham, footnote Resent-Message-ID: <"ur9fn3.0.g.wQeop"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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"Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net> writes:

>(If one follows the thoughts of Graham Hancock, the fabled civilization
>of Atlantis is buried under that ice cap, moved from a mostly temperate
>zone to the pole by a crustal shift some 11-12,000 years ago; see Charles
>Hapgood's books "Path of the Poles" and "Voyages of the Ancient Sea
>Kings". Both are scholarly and detailed but out of print, should be
>available from libraries. However, the essence of Hapgood's work is in
>Hancock's "Fingerprints of the Gods".)

I read Fingerprints just a few weeks ago, and have on order the book "When the Sky Fell" by Rand and Rose Flem-Ath which is Hancock's admitted primary source for this Atlantis-under-the-south-pole idea.

Unfortunately, Hancock's book, although very interesting and informative, left me with more questions than it answered. For example, I wanted to know how long this claimed rotating-skin-of-the-Earth process took (was it days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, or millenia?), but Hancock doesn't say, although I was left with the impression that the answer is probably centuries or millenia.

I would have also liked to have seen some real technical analysis as to whether or not this rotating-skin idea adds up, number wise. For example, the claimed driving force is the unbalanced gravitational pull and/or rotational inertia on the polar regions as they accumulate great masses of ice that are imperfectly distributed (note that imperfect distribution between the two poles may be more important than imperfect distribution at each pole). Can the estimated force difference overcome the frictional drag and inertia of rotating the Earth's skin at a rate of, say, roughly a kilometer per year?

Also, I would have liked to have seen diagrams of the Earth that show how well the known locations of the ice-age ice sheets agree with the idea that they were polar accumulations.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 11:11:12 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:02:03 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Test Message (Disregard)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:11:05 +0000
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Disregard.


Some have felt underwear.(Test message)

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 15:06:02 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:30:51 -0700 From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:23:17 -0500
References: <1.5.4.32.19970714200605.006c11c0 atlantic.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Jul 14,  3:02pm, Kurt Johmann wrote:

> Unfortunately, Hancock's book, although very interesting and informative,
> left me with more questions than it answered. For example, I wanted to
> know how long this claimed rotating-skin-of-the-Earth process took (was
> it days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, or millenia?), but
> Hancock doesn't say, although I was left with the impression that the
> answer is probably centuries or millenia.

I may recollect wrong, but I believe he implied it was sudden, trapping and killing entire herds of animals at once in the resulting maelstrom and climate changes (although "sudden" in geological time could actually be millenia to us).  The great flood apparently then followed as huge sheets of ice now resided in more temperate climate zones.

 > I would have also liked to have seen some real technical analysis as to
> whether or not this rotating-skin idea adds up, number wise. For example,
> the claimed driving force is the unbalanced gravitational pull and/or
> rotational inertia on the polar regions as they accumulate great masses
> of ice that are imperfectly distributed (note that imperfect distribution
> between the two poles may be more important than imperfect distribution
> at each pole). Can the estimated force difference overcome the frictional
> drag and inertia of rotating the Earth's skin at a rate of, say, roughly
> a kilometer per year?

There also was an implication that the event coincided with a flip of the magnetic north pole of the planet, (several have been identified so far in ancient rock formations with the next predicted to happen sometime around 2010).

Never stated, but IMO smack the planet with a big enough asteriod and you could destablize things a bit too.

 > Also, I would have liked to have seen diagrams of the Earth that show how
> well the known locations of the ice-age ice sheets agree with the idea
> that they were polar accumulations.

Me too.  As I mentioned earlier, difinitive proof was lacking.  But in the author's defense, I don't think it exists.  We are stuck with only 200 pieces of a 1000 piece puzzle.  I guess we will just have to sit and wait to see what the magnetic flip will do (as if we really could do anything about it even if we did know! <g>).


-- 
Quote of the Day:  Success is the child of audacity.   -Benjamin Disraeli --
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 16:11:32 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:45:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Scudder,Henry J" <hjscudde@rdyne.bna.boeing.com> To: John Steck <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com>, Vortex-L <Vortex-L@eskimo.com> Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham, footnote Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:23:00 -0700
Resent-Message-ID: <"_soJK.0.6T2.Fmgop" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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John
	Does this mean I will need to buy a new compass?
Hank
 ----------
From: John Steck
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham, footnote Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 2:23PM

On Jul 14,  3:02pm, Kurt Johmann wrote:

> Unfortunately, Hancock's book, although very interesting and informative,
> left me with more questions than it answered. For example, I wanted to
> know how long this claimed rotating-skin-of-the-Earth process took (was
> it days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, or millenia?), but
> Hancock doesn't say, although I was left with the impression that the
> answer is probably centuries or millenia.

I may recollect wrong, but I believe he implied it was sudden, trapping and
killing entire herds of animals at once in the resulting maelstrom and climate
changes (although "sudden" in geological time could actually be millenia to
us).  The great flood apparently then followed as huge sheets of ice now resided in more temperate climate zones.

 > I would have also liked to have seen some real technical analysis as to
> whether or not this rotating-skin idea adds up, number wise. For example,
> the claimed driving force is the unbalanced gravitational pull and/or
> rotational inertia on the polar regions as they accumulate great masses
> of ice that are imperfectly distributed (note that imperfect distribution
> between the two poles may be more important than imperfect distribution
> at each pole). Can the estimated force difference overcome the frictional
> drag and inertia of rotating the Earth's skin at a rate of, say, roughly
> a kilometer per year?

There also was an implication that the event coincided with a flip of the
magnetic north pole of the planet, (several have been identified so far in
ancient rock formations with the next predicted to happen sometime around
2010).

Never stated, but IMO smack the planet with a big enough asteriod and you could
destablize things a bit too.

 > Also, I would have liked to have seen diagrams of the Earth that show how
> well the known locations of the ice-age ice sheets agree with the idea
> that they were polar accumulations.

Me too.  As I mentioned earlier, difinitive proof was lacking.  But in the
author's defense, I don't think it exists.  We are stuck with only 200 pieces
of a 1000 piece puzzle.  I guess we will just have to sit and wait to see what
the magnetic flip will do (as if we really could do anything about it even if
we did know! <g>).


 --
Quote of the Day:  Success is the child of audacity.   -Benjamin Disraeli
 --
John E. Steck
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 17:07:39 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:47:11 -0700 From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:39:42 -0500
References: <c=US%a=_%p=Rocketdyne%l=ROCKETDYNE/RDYNE/0005C416 xch-rd-11a.rdyne.bna.boeing.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham, footnote Resent-Message-ID: <"8wJ_R.0.vl2.-fhop" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Jul 14,  5:24pm, Scudder,Henry J wrote:

> Does this mean I will need to buy a new compass?

Hopefully we will all be around to ponder that question if and when it happens.
  If it does, and we are, no.  A new compass will point to the "new" north just like the old one!  We'll just have to change the map notations.  Don't pull out the eraser just yet though, no one can seem to agree as to what can, will, or did happen.

Geomagnetics isn't easily summerized as many inter-related factors and sub-topics are involved.  Found several related sites if anyone is interested in learning more:

<http://www.cam.org/~gouletc/decl_faq.html> <http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/potfld/geomag.html>.
<http://www.sigmaxi.org/amsci/articles/96articles/Fuller.html

Found a good qualified thrashing of "Finger Prints of the Gods" too:

<http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/8148/fingers.html>


Over and out.




-- 
Quote of the Day:  Success is the child of audacity.   -Benjamin Disraeli --
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 18:43:49 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:38:00 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:37:53 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Papp engine
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On Sun, 13 Jul 1997, Michael Randall wrote:

> 
> Your description above is available from, Joe Papp's USA Patent 3,670,494
> issued 6/20/70. 
> 

See http://www.icuf.indiana.edu/~jgh1/p201/fey1.html for a story about Richard Feynman's encounter with a "Joseph Papf" and his o/u engine. Think this is the same "Papp?"  Feynman never thought twice about the device being fake, and his actions with a power cord may have contributed to the explosion which killed one of the observers at the demonstration!

.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117  billb eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 00:02:28 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:57:09 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is <dtmiller@dsm7.dsmnet.com> From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller@dsmnet.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 01:56:54 (-050
Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham, footnote Priority: normal
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Hi Kurt, Mike, all,

> For example, I wanted to
> know how long this claimed rotating-skin-of-the-Earth process took (was
> it days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, or millennia?), but
> Hancock doesn't say, although I was left with the impression that the
> answer is probably centuries or millennia.

This is a subject that has interested me for almost 30 years.  Hancock says the time to do a 'crust shift' is days, science says millions of years (plate tectonics).

However, in Oregon there is scientific evidence (reported in "Science") that the magnetic field direction of the Earth changed in relation to a lava flow at the rate of 6 degrees per day for at least 10 days.  This was measured (and remeasured :) ) in a deep flood of lava which is supposed to have occurred a few million years ago.

What this means is that either the crust of the Earth shifted (or rotated) at the 6 degrees/day rate or the magnetic field shifted at that rate (or, I suppose, both at the same time).

Most geologists seem to prefer the idea that the magnetic field was shifting at that rate.  However, the part of the Earth that supposedly generates the Earth's main magnetic field (there are at least 3 components to the field) is thousands of times more massive than the crust -- and must physically move to change the field direction.

There are geophysicists now investigating other places on Earth that have floods of lava, such as the Deccan Traps area of India, for magnetic anomalies.

> I would have also liked to have seen some real technical analysis as to
> whether or not this rotating-skin idea adds up, number wise. For example,
> the claimed driving force is the unbalanced gravitational pull and/or
> rotational inertia on the polar regions as they accumulate great masses
> of ice that are imperfectly distributed (note that imperfect distribution
> between the two poles may be more important than imperfect distribution
> at each pole). Can the estimated force difference overcome the frictional
> drag and inertia of rotating the Earth's skin at a rate of, say, roughly
> a kilometer per year?

In a word, no.  

The Earth is dynamically balanced so that all of the forces on the land (and ocean) masses are at equilibrium.  That is, the vector sum of the forces acting on the land or water masses is straight down.  The Earth rotates, so there is centrifugal force counteracting gravity, which makes the Earth bulge at the equator and flatten at the poles.  The resulting shape produces the equilibrium.  (You can think of the Earth as a water-bubble in space, due to the fluid nature of the interior, the Earth will assume the exact shape needed to maintain equilibrium.)

So, the land masses have no 'sideways' forces acting on them due to centrifugal force.  You can easily see this by watching the path of icebergs (which are somewhat equivalent to land masses floating on the fluid interior of the Earth).  Icebergs don't make a bee-line toward the equator, they just float along with the ocean and wind currents.

> Also, I would have liked to have seen diagrams of the Earth that show how
> well the known locations of the ice-age ice sheets agree with the idea
> that they were polar accumulations.

You aren't likely to find this in scientific literature.  That's because ice ages are always supposed to occur in the same places, and any ice accumulations in 'funny' places (such as central Africa or Brazil) are assumed to have happened hundreds of millions of years ago -- thus agreeing with plate tectonics (sort of).

However, if you trace the limit-of-ice of the last glaciation in North America, you'll find that it follows (roughly) the Ohio River on the east and the Missouri River on the west (and going north into Canada).  Alaska and northwestern Canada was free of ice at the end of the last ice age (supposedly about 10,000 years ago)  while Minnesota, Michigan, etc. were covered by a mile or two of ice.

The center of this ice sheet seems to be somewhere just to the east of Hudson Bay, quite far from the current North Pole.

-- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF)

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 10:38:11 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:26:41 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:56:04 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Isotopic Ratios Prove ET Origin? (2) Resent-Message-ID: <"6Vnu11.0.151.GBxop" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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To Vortex,

Original Article on CNI News has more (including close-up picture of the object).

http://www.iscni.com/CNI_Artifact.html

ucar

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 20:46:00 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:17:27 -0400 (EDT) From: lewis edward <lewis3@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: charge clusters
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On Sun, 13 Jul 1997, Michael Randall wrote:

> At 11:11 AM 7/13/97 -0400, Frank Znidarsic wrote:
> >(Eric Hammond writes)
> >


I think there are a lot of plasmoid marks on cf ceti-type cells: many marks viewable on
www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4946

I originated a lot of theory for this research.  

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 20:50:21 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:30:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: mrandall@mail.earthlink.net
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Papp engine
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At 06:37 PM 7/14/97 -0700, you wrote:
[snip]
>See http://www.icuf.indiana.edu/~jgh1/p201/fey1.html 

Hi William,

The address above didn't work. Is it correct?

Thanks,
Michael

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 14 22:38:50 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:33:45 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:33:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: mrandall@mail.earthlink.net
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net> Subject: Re: charge clusters
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At 11:17 PM 7/14/97 -0400, lewis edward wrote:
>
>
>On Sun, 13 Jul 1997, Michael Randall wrote:
>
>> At 11:11 AM 7/13/97 -0400, Frank Znidarsic wrote:
>> >(Eric Hammond writes)
>> >
>
>
>I think there are a lot of plasmoid marks on cf ceti-type cells:
>many marks viewable on
>www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4946
>
>I originated a lot of theory for this research.  
>
Hi Lewis,

Nice article and photo's. Have you seen Ron Kovac's plasmoid R&D on non-cf equipment and his canard geometry theory? It was written up in ITS Tesla Magazine a couple of years ago. Ron's work wasn't for measuring ou but a rough estimate looked ou. He created nice toroid and vortex plasma geometries.

Regards,
Michael 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 03:40:45 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 03:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:33:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall <ad502@iesun9.city.ac.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fags
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Hi Mike,

On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Mike Butcher wrote:
> Good to here from you again and nicely put: 

>> The New-Labour gov believes that 16 year-olds aren't old enough to
>> smoke, but they're old enough to have a fag - if you get what I mean! 

Be watchful... What they are saying is tantamount to child molestation (paedaphila (=lover of children), (sic) as they would have you believe).
Leftwingism is the politics of envy, sloth, transference of neurosis. 
This is why I got angry a few months ago with the psycho-babble coming from the sociologist. 

Civilisations crumble by internal corruption - the people become decandent and neurotic. The agenda for the anarchist, mediocre, cultural vandal is to attack that what makes man great: his boldness, self confidence and integrity. Then they can reduce us to the level of dark age savages. 

By catching people young, crippling their minds they can reach this objective. If this sounds paranoid and McCarthiesist, I suggest you read Ayn Rand's work on Objectivism (try http:\\www.aynrand.org, Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged, Romanitic Manifesto) and get into the SCIENCE (psychology) of what makes the leftwinger tick.

What is all so annoying and evil about it is that it is dressed up as progressive and humanitarian thought. No some are just sad and deluded, its the others you must watch... 

Essentially, watch the meaness of these people: their hatred of talent, beauty, freedom, integrity, hapiness and fulfilment. They are NASTY, WICKED and EVIL and they prey on the young. Why are all they education institutions so leftwing? Why do they cripple the best minds, try to break them. Watch all the power cliques they create and how they dominate people.


I suggest you read in the Fountainhead, Elseworth Toohey's (a character like Tony Benn) soliquay to Peter Keating where he brings the young man inside to the scam. His objective is break the soul (reduce them to sniveling neurotics) of mankind so that they become dependent on him and naturally serve him: 

"It's the soul Peter, the soul. That is why all the other fools have failed, the Napoleans and other dictators - they didn't get the soul...

(I get a little foggy with memory here)

"Internal corruption Peter, make man feel small, break his spirit, his integrity, his values... he be so confused, he'll bring you the slave whip and beg to serve you"

Ayn Rand: Fountainhead.


You see what the leftwinger disguises as humanitarian good and pity for wretches is not genuine love and compassion and goodwill such that the person recovers their self esteem and worth. No, its a master/underling relationship of do gooder and bringer of alms, e.g. the Welfare State encourages dependancy so that the 'great and good' in society can feel satisfied with themselves - and make the rest feel GUILTY so that they pay more tax.

Herein lies the hypocracy of the left of 'do as I say, not as I do' (Why are the chief exponents always so wealthy: Blair has two houses, one valued at 600,000 sends his kids to private school, his wife has a 2000 pound hair-do and they have a 4000 pound bed).

Break people, make them feel small and gulity, then you can rule them...

Here are some examples:

Don't smoke, you're a bad person. (develop guilt and neurosis, weaken the 
   person)

Don't eat meat, ditto.

So you`re a traditionalist, you biggot! Or maybe you're just in the closet.

What do you mean you don't like modern art - philstine! (this is a 
   breaking of asthetic values - evolved to protect us, crucial to our 
   survial - feelings of revultion when something just isn't right. That way 
   you'll accept any imposition on you)

What do you mean you regard Western Culture as superior to others! (We 
   got here by logic. Break the logical sense, the victim can't 
   think, he can be ruled)

What do you mean you shouldn't pay more taxes! The strong must help the weak! (A philosophy of servitude, quoting Rand: "if someone requires you 
      to sacrifice, it follows that there is a collector of offerings" 
      Think of Romania, think Ceaucesque (spelling sorry) or the politburo.

Why you are you so happy and optimistic, think of all the suffering in the world. (Break man's spirit, look at modern art, music, films. What's 
     the subject matter, doom gloom, loss, perversion, failure: think 
     Trainspotting, Taxi Driver, any film with psychotic young men. 
     Mafioso gangster anti-hero type films - the good guy is the one who 
     goes around beating up people and extorting from them, but because he 
     gives money in an ostentatious way to the old lady in the street he 
     is a "'man' of honour")


For the love of humanity, stop these people before they destroy society and everything we hold decent.

Those in with the scam, have a jolly good laugh at my emotional outburst. 
People are growing sick and tired of the sanctimonious, WE'LL psycho-analyse you for a change. Be warned - you start the war, we'll finish it and break you. Lessers cannot rule their betters...

And so spake Remi.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 03:49:04 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 03:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:43:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall <ad502@iesun9.city.ac.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Sound Waves for Refrigeration Resent-Message-ID: <"eXy8n3.0.bM4.8Irop" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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John,

Yes a saw it in N.S. very nifty! There's another one in a magazine I like called Eureka! They use zeolite molecular sieves to deplete the air of water vapour - you see the w.v. is the working substance.

This Eureka magazine I like very much because it covers the whole gamut of inventions from the highly academic to the 'tinkerer'. I was going to send Chris Tinsley a copy of it but lost his address because he's always on about taking theory with a pinch of salt. Well, anyway, there was an article about applying magnets to fuel line of engines with miraculous boosts in fuel efficiency.

Its the kind of thing many engineers and `tinkerers` have known about for ages but there's no theory so it gets pooh-poohed by hackademics.

Its interesting because one of the heads of my engineering school was talking about this once to me a few months ago.

Viva tinkering is all I can say!
Remi. 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 03:53:30 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 03:47:08 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:47:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall <ad502@iesun9.city.ac.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mainly about Bauer's work
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Hi Tim,

What would you say to an experiment that could demonstrate an anomaly and scale up easily? A better more believable way to proceed in this area of p.m. which is a vast mine-field of failure and broken aspirations?

Remi.

On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Tim D Vaughan wrote:

> 
> Hi Remi,
> 
> As far as I am concerned the point of the SMOT experiments is not to
> develop
> a practical source of energy, but rather to demonstrate an anomaly that
> could be the basis of such a technology.
> 
> Tim
> ( tv juno.com )
> 
> On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:55:23 +0000 (GMT) Remi Cornwall 
> >Oh yeah SMOT'ters don't get me wrong, I'm keeping an open mind - care to
> 
> >tell me how you achieve industrial level scale up once you close the
> loop.
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 19:39:00 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 19:20:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Cold Fusion in Clay?
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:06:44 +0000
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To Vortex:

Keywords:   Clay, Montmorillonite, Molecular Sieve, Zeolite,
            Ion Exchange. Alumino-Silicate, Feldspars.

These contain all of the ingredients: M2/nO:Al2O3:xSiO2:yH2O where  M is the cation metal, n is the valence of the cation, to do the "CF" thing in a ceramic lattice.

If M is a heavy metal with valence n, and possibly D2O is substituted for H2O and a trigger (possibly light of the right frequency or microwaves) a "brick" could be turned into a "CF" reactor.

Eat your heart out, Bill Page.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 19:37:06 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 19:21:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Sound Waves for Refrigeration Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:29:51 +0000
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At 10:43 AM 7/15/97 +0000, Remi wrote:
>John,
>
>Yes a saw it in N.S. very nifty! There's another one in a magazine I 
>like called Eureka! They use zeolite molecular sieves to deplete the air 
>of water vapour - you see the w.v. is the working substance.

United Desiccants Co., has a plant nearby that processes Montmorillonite clay "mined" in Arizona and shipped in for processing. The clays and silica gel have been used for desiccants and catalyst supports for years.
>
>This Eureka magazine I like very much because it covers the whole gamut 
>of inventions from the highly academic to the 'tinkerer'. I was going to 
>send Chris Tinsley a copy of it but lost his address because he's always 
>on about taking theory with a pinch of salt. Well, anyway, there was an 
>article about applying magnets to fuel line of engines with miraculous 
>boosts in fuel efficiency.

These have been pushed for a least 20 years or so, Remi. As I stated earlier you might get more benifit from them (if they are shaped right) to use them as suppositories. However, you will tend to want to head in a North-South direction. :-) In the upper U.S. (or as they say South of the Border, "the uppa U as) you will prefer travelling the odd numbered interstate highways.  :-)
>
>Its interesting because one of the heads of my engineering school was 
>talking about this once to me a few months ago.

Experience is a good teacher, also.
>
>Viva tinkering is all I can say!

Agreed. 

REgards,    Frederick
>Remi. 
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 06:59:36 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:56:41 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:47:59 -0500
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On Jul 15,  5:39am, Remi Cornwall wrote:

> This Eureka magazine I like very much because it covers the whole gamut
> of inventions from the highly academic to the 'tinkerer'.

Is this magazine another British publication?  I would be interested in tracking down a copy if it doesn't set me back too much.  N.S. costs a fortune to subscribe to!  $140US/per year!  It was interesting, but I didn't think it was that interesting.

> Well, anyway, there was an
> article about applying magnets to fuel line of engines with miraculous
> boosts in fuel efficiency.
>
> Its the kind of thing many engineers and `tinkerers` have known about for
> ages but there's no theory so it gets pooh-poohed by hackademics.

Heard of that one, but never got good information.  You would be supprised how many things like that are out there.  Ultimately, that is the reason behind my obsession with old reference texts.

> Viva tinkering is all I can say!

Don't know where we would be without it.  Glad to hear your back for a while.


-- 
Quote of the Day:  Success is the child of audacity.   -Benjamin Disraeli --
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 08:02:30 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 07:57:47 -0700 Reply-To: <@snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham, footnote Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:56:16 -0400
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I looked up Heinrich's thrashing of Hancock's Fingerprints of the Gods, and many valid points are raised. Hancock's book is good reading and intellectualy stimulating, but it is a concatenationn of conjectures like many of its kind. Heinrich's critique fixes on devilish details, much as some critiques of CF work has done. 

In the book, Hancock admits he was looking for substance that could thread the scattered clues to an ancient civilization when the "library gods" in the form a letter directed him to Hapgood's work. I have the two Hapgood books I cited in a previous post. They are also tantalizing. They provide a scenario which coordinated a wide range of geophysical and paleotonological anomalies into a coherent picture. 

Hapgood's thesis is that the crust of the earth has moved on the constantly-rotating core of the earth several times, bringing different areas of the crust to the poles, and creating "ice ages" in various locations. The transit time is not at all clear, but probably a matter of years, perhaps decades. No matter, the transition period is catastropic, enough to wipe out civilizations. 

Hancock writes a good story. Hapgood is a scholar. There exist a number of maps whose authenticity have not been questioned to my knowledge, which show the outlines of the continent of Antartica under the ice shelf, including portions of the bay now covered with ice. These maps were complied in the 1500s from ancient sources, now lost. They show features of the earth with accurate longitude which was not available to Europeans of the 1500s. What civilization was the source of the maps? They suggest a seafaring nation that navigated the world. And there are methods of determining longitude which do not require accurate clocks, but do require long periods of observation. 

Hapgood is admittedly at a loss to propose a physical model that could produce the crustal shifts his scenario requires. But he has consulted the ocean floor cores and many other sources of hard evidence. The proposed pre-shift position of Antartica would have part of that continent in the Antartic circle, where ice of long duration could accumulate. Other parts were in the temperate zone. 

I can point out to this audience that the emerging data on low energy nuclear reactions and transmutation will call into question all dataing methods which rely on radioactive decay and isotope rations. This is not to say that they are automatically wrong, only that we can no longer say that they are absolutely right and constitute a clock immune from all environmental factors. 

Hapgood's work is off topic for Vortex, but it is interesting. If anyone wants to discuss it privately, please contact me. Better yet, go to your library. 

Mike Carrell

----------
> From: Mike Carrell <mikec snip.net>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham, footnote
> Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 5:52 AM
> 
> A small footnote to Steve's salute to Horace and reassurance about global
> warming, melting ice caps and coastal flooding. 
> 
> He is quite right that water expands on freezing and that a glass of
> icewater filled to the brim will not overflow as the ice melts. Also true
> that the Arctic icepack floats on an ocean. However, much of the Antartic
> ice pack rests on a continent; so if it melts there will be a positive
> contribution to the world's ocean level. 
> 
> Also one shouldn't be too frightened by computer climate models. The last I
> heard, the current models can't even predict the formation of a single
> cloud. Further, clouds differ in their heat transfer characteristics, some
> reflecting the sun's energy, some trapping it. The late Carl Sagan was
> pushing the global warming boogeyman using models which assumed the Earth
> was a bare ball, no oceans (great science!!). 
> 
> There is a faction of intellectuals and politicians who will use portents
> of disasters as an excuse to seize regulatory power and shape our
> civilization to some private vision. The consequences can be very costly.
> The Delaney Amendment, which sought to ban from the environment every last
> molecule of any chemical which could  under any condition of overdose seem
> to induce cancer in any animal, is one such example. 
> 
> (If one follows the thoughts of Graham Hancock, the fabled civilization of
> Atlantis is buried under that ice cap, moved from a mostly temperate zone
> to the pole by a crustal shift some 11-12,000 years ago; see Charles
> Hapgood's books "Path of the Poles" and "Voyages of the Ancient Sea Kings".
> Both are scholarly and detailed but out of print, should be available from
> libraries. However, the essence of Hapgood's work is in Hancock's
> "Fingerprints of the Gods".)
> 
> Mike Carrell

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 08:41:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:33:30 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:33:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall <ad502@iesun9.city.ac.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mainly about Bauer's work
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Tim,

I'm in the next edition of IE. Don't want to keep flogging my ideas, it's natural to think oneself right. The proof is in the experiment. However, I do believe that whoever demonstrates p.m. of c.f. as a robust industrial scale setup, the industries generated will boom and then everybody will say 'I knew about that'.

When all's said and done, a lot more will be said than done!

Remi. 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 08:31:07 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:26:06 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:38:18 -0700
Subject: Re: Mainly about Bauer's work
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970715104403.5675C-100000 iesun9> X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-8,10-20
From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
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Hi Remy,

I am open to any new ideas.  If you know of something that is better than the SMOT for demonstrating an anomoly that can be replicated, please tell us.

Tim
( tv juno.com )

On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:47:10 +0000 (GMT) Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk> writes:
>Hi Tim,
>
>What would you say to an experiment that could demonstrate an anomaly 
>and 
>scale up easily? A better more believable way to proceed in this area 
>of 
>p.m. which is a vast mine-field of failure and broken aspirations?
>
>Remi.
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 11:06:45 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:50:21 -0600 (MDT) X-Sender: protech@mail.frii.com (Unverified) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: protech frii.com (R. Wormus)
Subject: Roswell Artifact
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An article with images, graphs. quotes etc. is at:

http://www.cninews.com/CNI_Artifact.html

Interesting.
___RON


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 11:59:00 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:15:17 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Impacts of different natural isotope ratios Resent-Message-ID: <"Fq8FJ3.0.8u.6Tyop" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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To Vortex:

Whether the Roswell artifact is real of fake, the question arise:

What will be the effect of different natural isotope ratios on life and the technology? Is it possible to obtain different chemical reactions and physical process which give opportunity to form different life forms which are not permitted with the ratios are found our (solar) system?
(Isotope shifting is commonly known by astrophysicist caused by miscellaneous process which even impacting Earth elements).

The biological effects and possibility to develop different living organic materials on environment conditions similar or totally different than our environments lead to avery good speculative discussions and SF material. But on technological side, different isotopic environment may lead to (scientific) discoveries on other intelligent life styles which are almost impossible to make such discoveries on our isotopic environment. I found few papers investigating isotopic shift on HT superconductors (my favorite issue). May such researches can be made more common by the advancement of our science & technology. And it is not hard to imagine the dramatic exponential advancements which occurring soon as we turn the critical corner.

I am believing we are now just on the corner.

Regards,

Ucar

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 12:29:04 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:53:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Roswell Artifact
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:51:10 +0000
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At 05:50 PM 7/15/97 +0000, Ron wrote:
>An article with images, graphs. quotes etc. is at:
>
>http://www.cninews.com/CNI_Artifact.html
>
>Interesting.
>___RON
>
Lets see. Take some Silicon Tetrachloride,a liquid boiling at 57.6 C and some Germanium Tetrachloride, a liquid boiling at 84.0 C, Both are "routine" chemicals used for making semiconductors-transistors etc.

Do a rough fractional distillation on each to get isotope separation and shift. Throw in a few nickel and silver isoptopes for spicing things up.  Reduce in a furnace with hydrogen gas, Make it look good with the chemical vapor deposition (CVD)process. I've seen tungsten tubing 2 centimeters diameter with 3 mm walls made this way at Oak Ridge Labs back in the late 1960s. Best tungsten tubing you've ever seen.  :-)

In a modest chem lab you are looking at maybe fifty bucks and a couple of hours or so. FAR OUT (of this world?)  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 13:58:15 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:50:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Ronald R. Charpentier" <charpent crgdmail1.cr.usgs.GOV> (by way of "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber@worldnet.att.net>) Subject: Re: Lithium concentration in Searles, Great Salt Lake, and the
  Dead Sea.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:48:55 +0000
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On Jul 11,  7:42pm, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
> Subject: Lithium concentration in Searles, Great Salt Lake, and the Dead S
> Please and Thanks.
> 
> The crustal abundance of Lithium is about 20 ppm. The oceans are at
> about 0.20 ppm. Can you tell me what the concentration is in
> The "playa"? lakes that are only depleted by evaporation. Along similar
> lines the  crustal abundance of potassium is 42 times that of sea water
> and yet the craustal abundance of sodium with about the same solubility
> is only twice the sea water abundance.
> 
> In short what is depleting the potassium and lithium in the oceans?
> 
> 
> Thanks.     F.J. Sparber
>             Belen, N.M.
>  
> 
> 
> 
>-- End of excerpt from Frederick J. Sparber


I asked Dr. Michele Tuttle, one of our geochemists, for help on this one and she provided the following data:

>From Brenner-Tourtelot, E.F., Vine, J.D. and Bohannon, R.G., 1977, Lithium in the Playa Environment, in, Greer, D.C., ed., Desertic Terminal Lakes--Proceedings from the International Conference on Desertic Terminal Lakes, p.169-182

Southern Great Salt Lake-  approx. 40 ppm Northern Great Salt Lake-  approx. 60 ppm

and from Smith, G.I., 1979, Subsurface stratigraphy and geochemistry of Late Quaternary evaporites, Searles Lake, California:  U.S. Geological Survey Professional Paper 1043, 130 p.

Searles Brine in upper salt- 22-72 ppm with average of 47 ppm (19 samples); brine in lower salt- 7-52 ppm with average of 22 ppm (22 samples)

Dead Sea-  no readily available data.


It's not really appropriate to compare crustal abundances with oceanic abundances because much more is involved here than mere solution of salts.  The solubility of potassium salts is much greater than sodium salts, but for the most part, these elements are not in these forms in the crust but rather in such forms as feldspars and clays.  Potassium feldspars are more stable and resistant to weathering than sodium feldspars.  Potassium is also involved in a lot of diagenetic reactions in lakes and oceans, especially in clay formation.  These may help to explain why there is less potassium dissolved in the ocean than you might at first expect.

That's a pretty basic answer.  Is this enough for your needs?  If you would like to know more or have more specific questions, don't hesitate to contact me personally at:
charpentier usgs.gov

Good luck!

Ronald R. Charpentier
Geologist
Opinions are my own and not those of the USGS or the US Government.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 14:32:00 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:12:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: johmann@atlantic.net
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From: Kurt Johmann <johmann atlantic.net> Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham, footnote Resent-Message-ID: <"s1JQF2.0.j16.JV-op"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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"Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net> writes:

>I looked up Heinrich's thrashing of Hancock's Fingerprints of the Gods,
>and many valid points are raised. Hancock's book is good reading and
>intellectualy stimulating, but it is a concatenationn of conjectures like
>many of its kind. Heinrich's critique fixes on devilish details, much as
>some critiques of CF work has done.

Heinrich's critique is at 

  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/8148/fingers.html 

I read it too, but was perhaps less impressed by it than you. His critique is *heavily* loaded with phrases like "appalling lack of knowledge," "very poorly researched," "sloppy scholarship," and on and on and on. When people write like that, as a rule they have little of any real substance to say, and that is the case with Heinrich.

The only memorable contradiction of Hancock that Heinrich makes is the claim that Antartica ice cores have been dated back millions of years.
Okay, that is a claim I'm already vaguely familiar with, but Heinrich *assumes* without saying so that the dating claims are correct. He says nothing about the dating methods used, what assumptions were made by the scientists who did the dating, what reliability the dates arguably have, and so on. 

In other words, Heinrich's argument against Hancock boils down to the standard "skeptic" method of ignoring the other side's evidence and presenting one's own evidence as indisputable fact. Ho hum. I've seen this kind of weak-minded display a million times.

Windbags like Heinrich contribute nothing to the discussion, IMO.


[a nice summary of Hapgood snipped]

>I can point out to this audience that the emerging data on low energy
>nuclear reactions and transmutation will call into question all dataing
>methods which rely on radioactive decay and isotope rations. This is not
>to say that they are automatically wrong, only that we can no longer say
>that they are absolutely right and constitute a clock immune from all
>environmental factors. 

Interesting point, which may be relevant.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 15:52:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: 15 Jul 97 18:42:41 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Lithium concentration in Searles, Gr Resent-Message-ID: <"WsnSc1.0.UO2.Js_op" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Ronald,

 > That's a pretty basic answer.  Is this enough for your needs?  If  > you would like to know more or have more specific questions, don't  > hesitate to contact me personally at: charpentier usgs.gov

That's very helpful, but it's intriguing that the lakes have so much higher lithium than the oceans.  One question was raised here earlier, namely the gross discrepancies between elemental abundances on earth and in meteorites.  Is there a generally accepted explanation for this?

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 15:53:07 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:44:37 -0700 Date: 15 Jul 97 18:42:43 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Cydonia
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Gnorts, all,

Somehow or other, a discussion got started here on the "anomalies" of the Cydonia region of Mars.  Our very own Mitchell Swartz alerted us to a UK magazine called "Quest," a new publication devoted to matters of this kind.  I located a copy (which contains an interesting article by Mitchell on Mars as a possible past or present abode of life, with special reference to the recent discoveries of the Archaea on earth).

Well, the mag is not entirely to my taste.  But the large special supplement on Cydonia is more interesting.  I was mildly suspicious that so much emphasis the academic qualifications of the writers (and the description of Mitchell's was garbled to put it mildly), but the results wer at the very least interesting.  They left me firmly on the fence because I am not willing to put any serious effort into checking on what was claimed; I did that a few years ago for CF but to me Cydonia is infinitely less important and will probably be partially resolved when Global Surveyor starts sending back images next spring.

I have to separate out the numerology (or what looks very much like numerology) from the various analyses of the surface features.  The former are very iffy indeed, the latter are much more impressive - at least to the uneducated like myself.  I was also interested in the idea that the Lyot crater might record an impact which had destroyed a prior Martian biosphere.

The bottom line is extremely simple and straightforward.  The proponents of the artificial origin of the Cydonian features predict that if Global Surveyor gets new hi-res images of Cydonia, then these will confirm the eyeball and teeth claimed to be visible in enhancements of the Viking images.  It was interesting that these features are best seen (it is claimed) when the two medium-res Viking images are superposed and the features common to both are empahsised, and that such superposition shows teeth on the poorly-lit right side of the "face" as well as the better-lit left side.

It will be interesting to see if these predictions are shown to be correct.

I would add that the argument is made that the more carefully the landforms are studied, the more anomalous they appear...

Chris

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From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Papp engine  Attn: William Beaty Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:14:20 +0000
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>> 
>> Your description above is available from, Joe Papp's USA Patent 3,670,494
>> issued 6/20/70. 
>> 
>
>See http://www.icuf.indiana.edu/~jgh1/p201/fey1.html
>William Beaty 

My browser said that address could not be found.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 17:52:44 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:45:17 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:45:07 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Papp engine  Attn: William Beaty Resent-Message-ID: <"8rFQh.0.2t6.Rc1pp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Ed Wall wrote:

> >See http://www.icuf.indiana.edu/~jgh1/p201/fey1.html
> >William Beaty 
> 
> My browser said that address could not be found.
> 

Arg!

I read it three times looking for typos, but one got through anyway.

Corrected: http://www.iucf.indiana.edu/~jgh1/p201/fey1.html R. Feynman blows up Papf o/u engine, three injured, one dies, inventor sues the university.


.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117  billb eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 15 19:37:11 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 19:34:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Papp engine  Attn: William Beaty Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:49:50 +0000
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At 12:14 AM 7/16/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>> 
>>> Your description above is available from, Joe Papp's USA Patent 3,670,494
>>> issued 6/20/70. 
>>> 
>>
>>See http://www.icuf.indiana.edu/~jgh1/p201/fey1.html
>>William Beaty 
>
>My browser said that address could not be found.
>
So did mine until I used a one (1) instead of an El (l) after the (h) in ~jgh1. I get caught on that one a lot.

Regards,   Frederick   (up river in Belen) :-)

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From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Papp engine  Attn: William Beaty Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:26:06 +0000
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At 12:45 AM 7/16/97 +0000, Bill Beaty wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Ed Wall wrote:
>
>> >See http://www.icuf.indiana.edu/~jgh1/p201/fey1.html
>> >William Beaty 
>> 
>> My browser said that address could not be found.
>> 
>
>Arg!
>
>I read it three times looking for typos, but one got through anyway.
>
>Corrected: http://www.iucf.indiana.edu/~jgh1/p201/fey1.html
>R. Feynman blows up Papf o/u engine, three injured, one dies, inventor
>sues the university.
>

ICU is Intensive Care Unit, Bill. iu is Indiana University, No? Had me going there. Excite search engine brought it right up on "Joseph Papf" or I would still be looking.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
>William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
>EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
>Seattle, WA 98117  billb eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page
>
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 03:21:20 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:17:40 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:38:43 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Announcing new scientific papers is it relevent to Vortex?
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Lacking of feedback I am not sure that these postings are useful to vortex people. Anyway this is a recently published paper working around Schwinger theory.

hep-th/9707122

From: Kimball A. Milton <milton phyast.nhn.ou.edu> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 10:00:36 MDT   

Observability of the Bulk Casimir Effect: Can the Dynamical Casimir Effect be Relevant to Sonoluminescence?

Authors: Kimball A. Milton, Y. Jack Ng

Available from http://xxx.lanl.gov

ucar

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 01:20:22 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:16:34 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:16:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Martin Sevior <msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca> To: Horace Heffner <hheffner@corecom.net> Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Hi Horace,
	  I hope you get your chores done quickly so you can get back with your interesting comments. Regarding Climate Change, I have a piece of advice.

"Beware prophets of Doom with poor computer models demanding Research Grants"

To 0th-order a warmer world is a world with more rain and a much larger temperate zone. This would imply both a greater region and better yields for crops. In addition as you quote in an earlier post, higher CO2 gives better photosynthesis which also gives better crop yields.

To my mind it is by no means obvious that higher CO2 concentrations would be bad for either Man or Life on Earth.

Martin Sevior

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 02:43:11 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 02:39:45 -0700 Date: 16 Jul 97 05:37:58 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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Martin,

 > To 0th-order a warmer world is a world with more rain and a much  > larger temperate zone. This would imply both a greater region and  > better yields for crops. In addition as you quote in an earlier  > post, higher CO2 gives better photosynthesis which also gives  > better crop yields.

Would that be much consolation to the Bangladeshis?

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 03:05:05 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:00:08 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:00:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Martin Sevior <msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On 16 Jul 1997, Chris Tinsley wrote:

> Martin,
>
>  > To 0th-order a warmer world is a world with more rain and a much
>  > larger temperate zone. This would imply both a greater region and
>  > better yields for crops. In addition as you quote in an earlier
>  > post, higher CO2 gives better photosynthesis which also gives
>  > better crop yields.
>
> Would that be much consolation to the Bangladeshis?
>

Good Question Chris. It comes down to the cost of reducing CO2 emmissions compared to the cost of relief and corrective measures required for adversely affected regions of the world. It is possible to run a rich and succesful economy in low lying Countries. Look at the Netherlands.

It would be good to see that sort of disscussion in the media as well as the Doom and Gloomers with their own anti-growth agendas.

In any case, people here should remember that the OECD's share of Greenhouse emmissions is pretty soon going to be over-whelmed by that of former third-world nations like China. China's economy is doubling every 7 years. Compared to China's growth in CO2 emmissions scaling back the West's contributions is of very little consequence.

Martin Sevior




X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 03:06:43 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:02:32 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:02:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall <ad502@iesun9.city.ac.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fags
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Yeah Ed!,

It takes a certain kind of person to do anything well in life: honesty, integrity, earnestness (very important). You see it on the faces of the young, they question, seek answers. Then the world betrays them.

I'm no biggot and tolerate people, I don't care what consenting adults get up to. However, its like the drug addict, failure in life, alcoholic etc. that have been afflicted (and here compassion, empathy - not pity helps) that goes after young people and tries to afflict them. This is EVIL.

I heard a paedophile speak on BBC radio 4 (I had to switch after a while, too distressing) about how he befriended loney boys at about puberty and gainned their confidence. That bastard is straight up pure and evil.

People are seeing this as some kind of natural progression of human 'rights' and paedophiles are now trying to get accepted.

I still insist that the motivation behind these people is pure evil and envy: when they see unblemished, talented youth that they have to corrupt it. It's a form of vandalism.

Similarily, to do anything well in life you have to be a little bit different than the rest - independent, self reliant, questioning authority... It is these people (the Edisons, Faradays, Einsteins etc..) whose clarity of thought (nature doesn't lie to you and you can't lie back) that have upset paradigms, change economic systems and so on.

If a person is interested in the status quo, hates progress or just plain envious, you have to destroy these people. So anyone who is anti-big government, an independent thinker, likes hunting, traditionalist etc. is portrayed as some kind of pervert. 

A mild example is what we call 'yob' (cockney slang, boy spelt backwards) culture in the UK, which the dumbmest, herd following men are somehow portrayed as the opitomy of manhood. I think the comedian Tim Allen portraies this well in his sitcom - Tool Time or how about further dumbing down presented in Beavis and Butthead...?

Art and philosophy are important - they underpin the very view of our existence (see Rand Romantic Manifesto). Who's doing all the art and philosophy nowadays? Who dismisses anything competent, non-perverted as passe (just hear them dismiss a Speilberg film, or non social realism novel, or a symphony with a tune)?

Internal corruption... Watch it, then go get your gun.

Sorry, gotta to post this to vortex.
Remi.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 03:24:44 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:21:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:21:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall <ad502@iesun9.city.ac.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: re: Bauer just testing you.
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Vortex,

Bauer's paper in which he describes the cycling fields doesn't make it explicitly clear how the fields cycle. I guess he assumed you knew his track if you were following the thread over the years.

However if the field is radial, and a squirrel cage like sheild moves circumferentially, the fields modulate with no energy input (yeah, yeah slight losses from bearings). Is this the basis of the Brown-Eckling machine where the varying flux linkage impinges on coils directly?

The more I find out, the less I feel I know. Another hole in e.m. theory is that effective magnetic monopoly posted about 4 months ago with the sphere made from bar magnets orientated similarly and radially.

I'll have to collar and expert on e.m. theory and ask them about these paradoxes. Then watch them squirm, as many 'experts' do when asked difficult questions that seem to question their raison-d'etre.


And besides the trite argument that if people have o-u devices then they would be selling like hot cakes. The Brown-Ecklind device could use so much exist technology that it should be easy to demonstrate - they must have run into technical difficulties. What are these? (The problem with c.f. and its idiosyncracies is filling the lattice and enough desirable lattice sites where the process is occuring).

Also to ask where the energy is coming from in the analysis depicted by Bauer is a difficult question. Clearly something is wrong... I'd just build the dam thing and find out. Sod what the 'experts' say.

Remi.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 03:28:15 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:25:05 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:25:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall <ad502@iesun9.city.ac.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Frederick,

On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:

> These have been pushed for a least 20 years or so, Remi. As I stated
> earlier you might get more benifit from them (if they are shaped right)
> to use them as suppositories. However, you will tend to want to head
> in a North-South direction. :-) In the upper U.S. (or as they say
> South of the Border, "the uppa U as) you will prefer
> travelling the odd numbered interstate highways.  :-)
> >

Demonstrating that you are suppository of knowledge? (-; Remi.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 04:28:09 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 04:24:47 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Sound Waves for Refrigeration Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:24:17 +0000
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At 10:25 AM 7/16/97 +0000, Remi wrote:
>Frederick,
>
>Demonstrating that you are suppository of knowledge? (-;
>Remi.
>
LOL! Aren't we all? Enigmas (or physics) if properly administered can sweeten one's despotism. Epsom salts are good for this.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 06:51:27 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 06:43:18 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:38:35 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: grappo@bahnhof.se (Unverified) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: gudmund rapp <grappo bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Fogal Transistor Test
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Hej David,
Här är litet fortsättning på Fogaltransistorn som du tyckte var intressant. Jag bifogar websidan ifråga. Vi hörs om tidtabellen om några dar. Vi hälsar på i Flen över weekenden. Krama Vlasta och tag en själv.
Pappa


At 10.14 1997-07-16 -0700, you wrote:
>The test of the Fogal Transistor happened.  The local newspaper posted an article on the web:
>
>http://augustachronicle.com/stories/060397/tech_newtransistor.html
>
>(I think I forgot to let you guys know).
>
>Gary Hawkins 
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Horizon Technology                   Tomorrow's Technology Today
>http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/                        Seattle, WA
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
Attachment Converted: C:\INTERNET\EUDORA\TECH_N~1.HTM Gudmund Rapp           Phone: +4687178913 Vinterbrinksvagen 7    Email: grappo bahnhof.se 133 32 Saltsjobaden    Sweden
Web "Self-knowledge": http://www.bahnhof.se/~grappo/index.htmlX-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 07:04:41 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 07:00:15 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:55:45 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: grappo@bahnhof.se (Unverified) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: gudmund rapp <grappo bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Fogal Transistor Test
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Sorry about my last message which got the wrong address. It is very hot here in Sweden at the moment!!!!
Gudmund

Hej David,
Här är litet fortsättning på Fogaltransistorn som du tyckte var intressant. Jag bifogar websidan ifråga. Vi hörs om tidtabellen om några dar. Vi hälsar på i Flen över weekenden. Krama Vlasta och tag en själv.
Pappa


At 10.14 1997-07-16 -0700, you wrote:
>The test of the Fogal Transistor happened.  The local newspaper posted an article on the web:
>
>http://augustachronicle.com/stories/060397/tech_newtransistor.html
>
>(I think I forgot to let you guys know).
>
>Gary Hawkins 
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Horizon Technology                   Tomorrow's Technology Today
>http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/                        Seattle, WA
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
Gudmund Rapp           Phone: +4687178913 Vinterbrinksvagen 7    Email: grappo bahnhof.se 133 32 Saltsjobaden    Sweden
Web "Self-knowledge": http://www.bahnhof.se/~grappo/index.html

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 08:44:17 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:32:01 -0700 From: Puthoff@aol.com
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:28:02 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Single-Crystal Pd?
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In a message dated 7/12/97 11:59:25 AM, you (Eric Hammond) wrote:

<<A few years back you were working on extracting energy from charge clusters. How did this line of research work out?>>

It did not go very far yet.  All attempts to scale up led to non o/u results.
 However, we have not given up on the idea.  On a related matter, the recent data from Fox, Shoulders et al., indicating that charged nuclei "dragged along" by charge clusters (collective acceleration) yielding evidence of nuclear fusion or fission is intriguing; MeV nuclear effects with KeV accelerating potentials.  (The "boost" factor is 1836 A/Z, where A is the atomic nr and Z the charge of the accelerated nuclei.)  We plan new tests along these lines. 

Hal Puthoff

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 11:37:59 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:28:43 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:49:45 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fogal Transistor Test
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970716123313.7423A-100000 college> Resent-Message-ID: <"KHAXl3.0.qr4.QBHpp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         Sounds like carrier current.
> 
>         In an un related, to Fogel, that is, method:
> 
>         Standard basebad video can and has been carried on standard
> telephone wires.   I personally have run inexpensive methods which can
> easily go the length of a family home wire system, 1,000 feet.  It
> odes
> not require millions to use this method.
> 

I read the articles and look to the patents. Just I understand basically from the Fogal transistor is a electrolytic capacitor (tantalum preferred attached to the emitter (of a bipolar transistor) like a bypass capacitor via an novel mechanism build some oscillations above the 100 MHz modulated by the base current and serve to amplify the signal above 1000 times without noise and distortions. The claimed performance is well beyond of any transistor). There are more claims about carrying currents without charges, etc.

Also their claimed to transfer signals faster than light and restoring video signals after rectified by diodes and filtered so no other equipment able to detect it.


Regards,

Ucar

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 09:52:03 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:36:05 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu> Subject: Re: Fogal Transistor Test
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	Sounds like carrier current.

	In an un related, to Fogel, that is, method:

	Standard basebad video can and has been carried on standard telephone wires.   I personally have run inexpensive methods which can easily go the length of a family home wire system, 1,000 feet.  It odes not require millions to use this method.

				JHS

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 11:27:21 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:14:15 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Electroluminescence in Electrolysis Cells.
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:37:00 +0000
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To Vortex:

There should be measurable electroluminesence in the electrolysis cells.  Since photographic materials (unless specially treated)limit out near 0.9 microns (900 nanometers) it would seem prudent to use infrared optoelectronic devices.Lead Sulfide (PbS)detectors are good up to 3 microns and Lead Telluride (PbTe)if refrigerated (thermoelectric) are also sensitive in this range.

I wouldn't be surprised if a cell operating in a dark room emitted some radiation visible to the dark-adapted eye.

Might be interesting to make a small P&F type cell and compare the IR electroluminescence between ou and non ou palladium electrodes.

Lots of IR Optoelectronic detectors in the Newark Electronics catalog.

Even Motorola sells them in there.  :-)

Regards,     Frederick

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Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:14:53 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Gary Hawkins <ghawk eskimo.com>
Subject: Fogal Transistor Test
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The test of the Fogal Transistor happened.  The local newspaper posted an article on the web:

http://augustachronicle.com/stories/060397/tech_newtransistor.html

(I think I forgot to let you guys know).

Gary Hawkins 
------------------------------------------------------------------ Horizon Technology                   Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/                        Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------------

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 10:59:59 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:57:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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I don't know how many of you out there sifted through the 'applets' and programming instructions, but I thought this was worth the edit. So, I'm resending a cleaner copy (sorry for the band-width) but this does look interesting.
--------------------snip----------------
>From grappo bahnhof.se Wed Jul 16 11:29:47 1997 Hej David,
Här är litet fortsättning på Fogaltransistorn som du tyckte var intressant. <snip>
Pappa

 10.14 1997-07-16 -0700, you wrote:
>The test of the Fogal Transistor happened.  The local newspaper posted an article on the web:
>
>http://augustachronicle.com/stories/060397/tech_newtransistor.html
>
>(I think I forgot to let you guys know).
>
>Gary Hawkins 
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Horizon Technology                   Tomorrow's Technology Today
>http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/                        Seattle, WA
>------------------------------------------------------------------ --------- Major <snip> ----------
--------- Major Edit ------------
photo: 

Bill Fogal (left) shows BellSouth's Charles Fulcher and Merle Temple a transistor circuit at Augusta Technical Institute on Monday. The men, with engineers from the Navy, saw Mr. Fogal demonstrate a new type of transistor he invented.

:BY BLANCHARD/STAFF:
Fogal demonstrates semiconductor :Web posted Jun. 02 at 10:37 PM By Walter C. Jones Staff Writer.:

Looking through walls, communicating instantly with distant galaxies or just gaining clearer television reception could all be possible with refinement of the transistors that Bill Fogal soldered and glued together on his kitchen table in Martinez. He demonstrated the Fogal Semiconductor on Monday afternoon in an Augusta Technical Institute electronics classroom while making a pitch for the funding needed for more laboratory testing. 
Sittting around student work benches, 15 engineers - from the U.S. Navy, a computernetwork company, and a telephone company - watched Mr. Fogal's television as he showed how his device affected the contrast of a videotape promoting Disney World. After the video extolled the adventure of ``Tomorrow Land,'' partner Tom Bearden offered fantastic possibilities for the future with Mr. Fogal's development. `It's not voodoo. It's not magic. It's just science that has been on the shelf since 1903,'' said Mr. Bearden, a retired Army aerospace nuclear engineer. As scientists applied basic physics over the decades, they took shortcuts to create the communications tools used today, he said. Those scientists ignored physical properties that work better, according to Mr. Bearden. 
Mr. Fogal simply applied some of that ``forgotten science'' in creating his transistor, Mr. Bearden said.``It's a different slant from what everybody is doing because nobody was taught this,'' said! Sam Little, vice president for technology at Networks Online. He came to Augusta to study the transistor's potential for speeding up computer and Internet operations.``If they can do what they say they can do, they have brought it up to a point where it takes a wellfinanced, sophisticated organization to carry it further,'' said Merle Temple, Augusta-area public relations director for BellSouth. He brought an engineer to the demonstration to see if Mr. Fogal's technology offers highquality communications on ordinary telephone wires at a fraction of the cost of fiber optic cable. 

Mr. Fogal and Mr. Bearden have two patents and are applying for two more.
What they need next, though, is a customer to pay the millions of dollars needed to research commercial application of what they have discovered.
Their Internet home page on the World Wide Web is 

http://www.eskimo.com/ ghawk/fogal_device.

In essence, the transistor ignores the signal transmitted through the wire because of its static. Instead, it collects the noise-free signal  traveling in a hallo of energy flowing outside the wire, as Mr. Bearden explained it. As an example, he said conventional electronics was like a water wheel powered by a stream diverted from a river. Instead of getting power from the little stream, the Fogal Semiconductor uses the water current from the whole river. At the same time, it uses a transmitter that combines energy waves into ``galloping waves'' that spurt at more than one hundred times the speed of light. That allows it to fold a video signal into a direct current of electricity and also to increase the speed of processing.
-------------------end of snip-----------------


Very interesting -ya?  (course we had the wrong guy edit this:) so, checking out the web site might be in order.

se

1 of the last Cowboys in Colorado,'the End of 100 year song' -------------------------------------------------------.edu+ back to basic(s)     Steve Ekwall           POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com    1.303.293.2FAX         wk.1.800.798.1100

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 11:16:10 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:12:28 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, John Schnurer wrote:
> 	Sounds like carrier current.
> 	In an un related, to Fogel, that is, method:
> 	Standard basebad video can and has been carried on standard 
> telephone wires.   I personally have run inexpensive methods which can 
> easily go the length of a family home wire system, 1,000 feet.  It odes 
> not require millions to use this method.
> 
> 				JHS
> 
John,

I too have used the 'two-wire' hook-ups . from 100 to 1500 feet. at 1500 it's really pushing the 'noise-limit' though. (especially with video)
  I think that that is what they are so excited about . "No Limit on distances." I like the idea, but, am still pondering "100 times the Speed of Light" & "Instantanious Communications with Distant Galaxies".
That doesn't sound like our common carrier current. 

se

1 of the last Cowboys in Colorado,'the End of 100 year song' -------------------------------------------------------.edu+ back to basic(s)     Steve Ekwall           POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com    1.303.293.2FAX         wk.1.800.798.1100

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 12:26:35 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:13:02 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:12:30 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: H gas and film
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Just as soon as we get an issue put to bed it wakes up again.  

I recently called Kodak's tech service line and, after some internal searching, they told me that they didn't expect any noticeable interaction between H gas and photographic film.

Such interactions have been proposed as a mundane explanation for the autoradiographs made with CF cathode.

Just today, Kirk Shanahan (former Vortex member) tells me this:

>...I spotted an old friend who is an almost professional 
>astronomer (his day job is as a nuclear chemist).  I asked him about the H2 
>sensitization technique and he said, "Oh sure, I have a small unit at home 
>for doing that to 35mm film."  Turns out he had a copy of "Sky & Telescope" 
>which had an ad for such kits in it from a company called Lumicon 
>( http://Astronomy-Mall.com/Lumicon ).  They sell for $325-595, depending 
>on size.  
>     
>The unit consists of a small chamber that can be evacuated by a hand pump, 
>and a small cylinder of 'forming gas', which is 8% H2 in N2.  There are 
>some pressure gauges on the chamber and a hand pump.  In the more expensive 
>versions there is also a temperature controller.  You backfill the chamber 
>with forming gas at a few psig and leave the film in it for up to a week 
>(B&W, color you don't want to go more than a day or so).  Sometimes you 
>heat to 30-40C.  The film that comes out is 'hypered'.
>     
>'Hypered' seems to be a slang abbreviation of hypersensitized, and what it 
>means is that the effective film speed has been increased some.  It depends 
>on the film, but my friend was using something called "Techpan" which is 
>nominally a 10-100 ASA film.  The range comes from the ability to use 
>different developers, with the more aggressive developers giving the higher 
>apparent speeds but also much higher contrast images.  
>     
>Hypered Techpan can be kept in a freezer for 6-12 months.  However, hypered 
>color film needs to be used right away.  Hypered film is sensitive to 
>moisture and heat, which will cause fogging.  My friend says he won't use 
>hypered film during the SC summers (100F, 100% RH) as it will fog badly.  

OK, now we have actual experience telling us that H2 gas + heat + humidity will fog film.  Those three ingredients are all simultaneously available from a highly-loaded CF cathode:  the H2 gas is seeping out due to "overloading", the heat occurs because some of the H2 is reacting with O2 in the air...and the result is H2O which gives you moisture.

I know it would take a long careful experiment to prove whether or not this mundane scenario explains any of the autoradiographs.  All I'm doing with this post is putting the H-gas exposure possibility back on the table.

     


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 13:02:43 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:38:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:44:24 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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For you Nasa Guys, (just a thought),

  Can the Hubble "see" Mir (the indangered space module) from it's orbit?

1:) understood it might be like looking at your own shoe with a telescope, but just thought ANY Picture (or IR, or EM image) might provide some helpful hints BEFORE the August repair crew arrives.

2:) understood Hubble has a back-log of Pre-Assigned "USER'S". (next in line as it were.)
    But, we do have American Astronaut Michael Foale up there too with Cosmonauts Tsibliyev & Lazutkin.

Could this Work? Turning hubble a bit and "zooming in/out as it were".. is there a 'smaller' line-up scope that might do the job of "seeing" what the damage is?  Or is Hubble to powerful for this?

Just a thought.

se

1 of the last Cowboys in Colorado,'the End of 100 year song' -------------------------------------------------------.edu+ back to basic(s)     Steve Ekwall           POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com    1.303.293.2FAX         wk.1.800.798.1100

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 14:14:03 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:59:43 -0700 X-Sender: claytor_t_n@esa.lanl.gov
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:55:09 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Thomas N. Claytor" <claytor_t_n lanl.gov> Subject: Re: H gas and film
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Forget film, use storage phosphors, biologists use this for DNA mapping.
It's ultra sensitive compared to film.  You can get the stuff from almost any bio department that does gene mapping. I have some special (uncoated) phosphor film from Kodak for direct beta detection from tritium. 
Almost any type of photo multiplier or PIN diode should be able to detect weak light emission from electrolytic cells, why haven't I seen anyone report on this?

Tom.

At 02:12 PM 7/16/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Just as soon as we get an issue put to bed it wakes up again.  
>
>I recently called Kodak's tech service line and, after some internal
>searching, they told me that they didn't expect any noticeable interaction
>between H gas and photographic film.
snip snip snip>
>
>     
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
>
>
http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm Thomas N. Claytor	Claytor_t_n lanl.gov
Los Alamos National Laboratory
ESA-MT, MS C914
Los Alamos NM, 87545
505-667-6216 voice
505-665-7176 fax

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 14:33:44 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:21:59 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:27:58 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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Oh well, it was just a thought  / reply below:

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 ComputerSupport stsci.edu wrote: REF:HST
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:15:12 -0400
> From: ComputerSupport stsci.edu
> To: ekwall2 diac.com
> Subject: CNSHD40397 Re: Hubble/Mir
> 
> 
> If you need to respond to this message please do so by replying to this message 
> or create a new message with call number CNSHD40397 included in the subject 
> line.
> 
> 
> Current call log entry : I don't think HST is the right tool for the job.  The 
>    two problems that
>    come to mind are that Mir is probably too bright for us to look at without
>    damaging the instruments, and that since both objects are in orbit, Mir
>    viewed from HST would appear to be moving across the sky at a high rate,
>    and HST would just barely be able to turn fast enough to follow it.  We
>    have never tried observing something moving that fast.  Even tracking 
>    comets is a challenge.  And remember that the field of view of HST is tiny,
>    so the tracking has to be extremely accurate.  No, there isn't any small
>    guiding scope with a large field of view.  But thanks for the suggestion.
>    
>    Harry
>    aka webmaster
> 
> 

se 

1 of the last Cowboys in Colorado,'the End of 100 year song' -------------------------------------------------------.edu+ back to basic(s)     Steve Ekwall           POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com    1.303.293.2FAX         wk.1.800.798.1100

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 15:33:04 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:20:39 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:20:32 -0400 (EDT) From: lewis edward <lewis3@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion in Clay?
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On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:

> To Vortex:
> 
> Keywords:   Clay, Montmorillonite, Molecular Sieve, Zeolite,
>             Ion Exchange. Alumino-Silicate, Feldspars.
> 
I think that production of elements and plasmoids also happens naturally in the earth and atmosphere.  

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 15:40:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:37:38 -0400 (EDT) From: lewis edward <lewis3@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: charge clusters
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Michael Randall wrote:
Nice article and photo's. Have you seen Ron Kovac's plasmoid R&D on non-cf equipment and his canard geometry theory? It was written up in ITS Tesla Magazine a couple of years ago. Ron's work wasn't for measuring ou but a rough estimate looked ou. He created nice toroid and vortex plasma geometries.

Regards,
Michael      



I didn't see this article.  But I saw one by him in a magazine called Extraordinary Science last year.  Is this magazine also put out by the ITS?

I liked his article, but it reminded me too much of my own articles. 
There has been a lot of work done over the years by some people for mathematically describing plasmoids.  I don't remember his work well enough to comment about his ideas. 



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 15:55:33 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:49:12 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:49:06 -0400 (EDT) From: lewis edward <lewis3@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: charge clusters
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On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Michael Randall wrote:

> At 11:17 PM 7/14/97 -0400, lewis edward wrote:
> >


I think that the production of an element 5 is it is valid is imp. 
work.  Along with the hydrino production, if it is valid, new atomic theory is required. 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 17:43:51 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:37:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Cold Fusion in Clay?
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:36:04 +0000
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At 10:20 PM 7/16/97 +0000, lewis edward wrote:
>
>
>On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>
>> To Vortex:
>> 
>> Keywords:   Clay, Montmorillonite, Molecular Sieve, Zeolite,
>>             Ion Exchange. Alumino-Silicate, Feldspars.
>> 
>I think that production of elements and plasmoids also happens naturally 
>in the earth and atmosphere.  
>
Not without some sort of "Activation Energy", Lewis.

This could be Solar Radiation initially.

When I get more ambitious I want to redo the tests with bricks soaked with water laced with, HCl, PbCl2 and LiCl in a powerful microwave oven. Bricks have about 20% void volume and show no heating in the microwave when Oven-Dry, But, get Very Hot in a short time if they contain tap water. 

This is a good way to bring about 0.2 liters of water to quite high (super-critical) temperatures and pressures without requiring high pressure apparatus.

I suppose the bricks could be vacuum heated-degassed before wetting and possibly pressurized with steam or hydrogen in an insulating pressure chamber. 

Perhaps not as good as palladium cathodes, but, a lot cheaper, there may even be some "plasmoids" created in there.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 21:06:49 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:00:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: mrandall@mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 06:37 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Michael Randall wrote:
>Nice article and photo's. Have you seen Ron Kovac's plasmoid R&D on non-cf
>equipment and his canard geometry theory? It was written up in ITS Tesla
>Magazine a couple of years ago. Ron's work wasn't for measuring ou but a
>rough estimate looked ou. He created nice toroid and vortex plasma 
>geometries.
>
>Regards,
>Michael      
>
>
>
>I didn't see this article.  But I saw one by him in a magazine called 
>Extraordinary Science last year.  Is this magazine also put out by the ITS?
>
>I liked his article, but it reminded me too much of my own articles. 
>There has been a lot of work done over the years by some people for
>mathematically describing plasmoids.  I don't remember his work well
>enough to comment about his ideas. 
>
Thats the one. The ITS magazine Extraordinary Science is now called A Journal of Modern Science, Tesla.

>
I think that the production of an element 5 is it is valid is imp. 
work.  Along with the hydrino production, if it is valid, new atomic theory is required. >

Yes. Kovac's experiment was ground breaking research with lots of expensive hi-tech equipment probably available in most university physics departments. 



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 22:16:15 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:11:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: mrandall@mail.earthlink.net
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Fogal Transistor Test
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At 10:14 AM 7/16/97 -0700, you wrote:
>The test of the Fogal Transistor happened.  The local newspaper posted an article on the web:
>
>http://augustachronicle.com/stories/060397/tech_newtransistor.html
>
>(I think I forgot to let you guys know).
>
>Gary Hawkins 
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Horizon Technology                   Tomorrow's Technology Today
>http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/                        Seattle, WA
>------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Gary for the update. Hopefully they can get funding so this technology can see the light of day.

Michael Randall 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 17 05:59:20 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:47:22 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:50:44 -0500
From: "Patrick V. Reavis" <preavis ro.com> Organization: NASA Student Volunteer
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Puzzled of Nottingham, signing off References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.970716010620.11528C-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca> Resent-Message-ID: <"poVjq3.0.hu2.OHXpp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Martin Sevior wrote:

> To 0th-order a warmer world is a world with more rain and a much
> larger
> temperate zone. This would imply both a greater region and better
> yields for
> crops. In addition as you quote in an earlier post, higher CO2 gives
> better
> photosynthesis which also gives better crop yields.



>
>
> To my mind it is by no means obvious that higher CO2 concentrations
> would
> be bad for either Man or Life on Earth.
>
> Martin Sevior

Greetings Vortexians!
I recall a program some years ago about tests done with a CO2-enriched atmosphere. (Roughly approximating a greenhouse effect) .  The results were interesting. It would seem intuitive that crops would benefit from the increase in CO2 concentrations, and this was shown to be the case.
However, several noxious weeds responded with even greater vigor and out-competed valuable crops.
[no prophecy offered and no grant required :)  ] Patrick V. Reavis

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 17 06:15:40 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:09:20 -0700 From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:01:56 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Dug up some more information on the drift of magnetic north.  Apparently it IS accelerating, but north, not south.  It has been moving at about 10 km per year until recently. It is now moving at about 20 km per year.  The north magnetic pole has wandered over 1000 kilometers since Sir John Ross first reached it in 1831.

http://sarbc.org/sarbc/north5b.html
http://pubs.usgs.gov/publications/text/stripes.html


-- 
Quote of the Day:  Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage.  -Billy Corrigan --
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 17 09:41:03 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:29:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: szdanq@peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu> Subject: Re: Cold Fusion in Clay?
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Frederick Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>When I get more ambitious I want to redo the tests with bricks
>soaked with water laced with, HCl, PbCl2 and LiCl in a powerful 
>microwave oven. Bricks have about 20% void volume and show no 
>heating in the microwave when Oven-Dry, But, get Very Hot in a 
>short time if they contain tap water. 
>
>This is a good way to bring about 0.2 liters of water to quite 
>high (super-critical) temperatures and pressures without requiring
>high pressure apparatus.
[snip]
>
>Regards,   Frederick

Frederick,

This may also be a good way to cause explosions! Please wear your body armor -wouldn't want to lose my favorite Vortexian punster!

As Boy Scouts we learned to avoid putting river rocks in the campfire, unless it's a dull night.

And as for microwaves, this reminds me of my first encounter with one. First week on the job, microwave in the lunch room. Decided it would be neat to hard-boil an egg, so put it in a covered glass dish, with shell on. Innate caution made me stand back. A few seconds later, BOOM! Shattered the dish, blew the door off the oven, bits of egg and glass everywhere. Moral: don't encase your brick in a glass dish :-)

Dan Quickert


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 17 17:08:26 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:03:37 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Cold Fusion in Clay?
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:09:46 +0000
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At 04:29 PM 7/17/97 +0000, Dan Quickert wrote:
>Frederick Sparber wrote:
>[snip]
>>When I get more ambitious I want to redo the tests with bricks
>>soaked with water laced with, HCl, PbCl2 and LiCl in a powerful 
>>microwave oven. Bricks have about 20% void volume and show no 
>>heating in the microwave when Oven-Dry, But, get Very Hot in a 
>>short time if they contain tap water. 
>>
>>This is a good way to bring about 0.2 liters of water to quite 
>>high (super-critical) temperatures and pressures without requiring
>>high pressure apparatus.
>[snip]
>>
>>Regards,   Frederick
>
>Frederick,
>
>This may also be a good way to cause explosions! Please wear your body armor
>-wouldn't want to lose my favorite Vortexian punster!

Sent my body armor to the laundry, it came walking back to my door all bright an shiny, clinking and clanking, with a chink in it. 

That's why I've been procrastinating on this one, Dan.I can't find any tensile yield data on common brick. I did find some information on common sense, though.  :-)
>
>As Boy Scouts we learned to avoid putting river rocks in the campfire,
>unless it's a dull night.

Rock shards make deadly shrapnel,don't they?
>
>And as for microwaves, this reminds me of my first encounter with one. First
>week on the job, microwave in the lunch room. Decided it would be neat to
>hard-boil an egg, so put it in a covered glass dish, with shell on. Innate
>caution made me stand back. A few seconds later, BOOM! Shattered the dish,
>blew the door off the oven, bits of egg and glass everywhere. Moral: don't
>encase your brick in a glass dish :-)

As a last resort I figured maybe wrapping it in burlap, or cloth, or fiberglass cloth. But, I wanted to keep it simple for my foam-insulated water-bucket-thermometer "calorimeter".  :-) 

Very good advice Dan,appreciated. 

Regards,    Frederick
>
>Dan Quickert
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 17 11:44:00 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:42:12 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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Subject:  Cold Fusion in Clay? : boy scout Resent-Message-ID: <"yOtVj3.0.hM6.ZPcpp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Dan Quickert wrote:

> >When I get more ambitious I want to redo the tests with bricks
> >soaked with water laced with, HCl, PbCl2 and LiCl in a powerful 
> >microwave oven. Bricks have about 20% void volume and show no 
> >heating in the microwave when Oven-Dry, But, get Very Hot in a 
> >short time if they contain tap water. 
> >
> >This is a good way to bring about 0.2 liters of water to quite 
> >high (super-critical) temperatures and pressures without requiring
> >high pressure apparatus.
> [snip]
> >
> >Regards,   Frederick
> 
> Frederick,
> 
> This may also be a good way to cause explosions! Please wear your body armor
> -wouldn't want to lose my favorite Vortexian punster!
> 
> As Boy Scouts we learned to avoid putting river rocks in the campfire,
> unless it's a dull night.
> 
> And as for microwaves, this reminds me of my first encounter with one. First
> week on the job, microwave in the lunch room. Decided it would be neat to
> hard-boil an egg, so put it in a covered glass dish, with shell on. Innate
> caution made me stand back. A few seconds later, BOOM! Shattered the dish,
> blew the door off the oven, bits of egg and glass everywhere. Moral: don't
> encase your brick in a glass dish :-)
> 
> Dan Quickert
> 
> 
> shell-on Egg:) (sigh)
I'm laughing here, as it reminds me a a "Vernon Saucher", (maybe it was his name/ or the fact he was the Lard-butt of the troop that we all *HAD* to help carry his load/stuff) in Boy scouts that put his "closed CAN of Beans" in the
camp-fire to heat-up during tent set-up time. Boom too, duh! Beans everywhere. 
  But sadly, It ALSO reminds me of the Lady that put her poodle (dog) in the micro-wave to dry it off after it's 'daily-bath!' :( WHERE This people come from I know not.. the silly laws they sue for and leave behind make the lawmakers look about as a+smart as the defendant.
So,
*outlaw Microwave ovens NOW*?? :( ! 
Rather than *No* more Camp-fire's and *NO* to can/Beans WITHOUT safety values installed in each can.  How about *YES* tha Lady is guilty of animal abuse.. (daily washing indeed) some of us are toooo helpful.
 "I think therefor I am" is really getting strected here.. seems liberal leftest democrates now say. "I am, Therefor I must be thinking!" :)

se
1 of the last Cowboys in Colorado,'the End of 100 year song' -------------------------------------------------------.edu+ back to basic(s)     Steve Ekwall           POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com    1.303.293.2FAX         wk.1.800.798.1100

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 17 12:44:39 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:34:44 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:31:48 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Gravitational Repulsion Article References: <3.0.1.32.19970705104104.006ecaa8 world.std.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"tOdvf.0.PI.HFdpp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Here is the abstract of a recent paper you can find at the physics pre-print server:
http://xxx.lanl.gov

The full paper is available in a compressed (gzipped) postscript format. To read this paper or any of the many other papers there, you must first download the postcript version using a filename with a *.gz suffix, uncompress it using gunzip.exe, and then read it or print it with postcript compatible software such as ghostview. PC compatible gunzip and ghostview software is available for free on the net.

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

===========================
General Relativity and Quantum
Cosmology, abstract
gr-qc/9706049

From: tsvi shemesh.fiz.huji.ac.il (Tsvi Piran) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:41:18 +0300

On Gravitational Repulsion

Author: Tsvi Piran
Comments: 10 pages, lates with 2 figures. Third prize in 1997 Gravity essay competition. ALso available from this ftp URL and this http URL

Abstract:
The concepts of negative gravitational mass and gravitational repulsion are alien to general relativity. Still, we show here that small negative fluctuations - small dimples in the primordial density field - that act as if they have an effective negative gravitational mass, play a dominant role in shaping our Universe. These initially tiny perturbations repel matter surrounding them, expand and grow to become voids in the galaxy distribution. These voids - regions with a diameter of 40 Mpc which are almost devoid of galaxies - are the largest object in the Universe.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 05:35:59 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:25:00 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:24:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall <ad502@iesun9.city.ac.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion in Clay?
Resent-Message-ID: <"WQicn2.0.Vi5.R2spp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> [snip]
> >When I get more ambitious I want to redo the tests with bricks
> >soaked with water laced with, HCl, PbCl2 and LiCl in a powerful 
> >microwave oven. Bricks have about 20% void volume and show no 
> >heating in the microwave when Oven-Dry, But, get Very Hot in a 
> >short time if they contain tap water. 
> >
> >This is a good way to bring about 0.2 liters of water to quite 
> >high (super-critical) temperatures and pressures without requiring
> >high pressure apparatus.
> [snip]
> >
> >Regards,   Frederick
> 
> Frederick,
> 
Yeah Frederick, go ahead, make my day! (Only kidding! Don't take everthing so seriously!)

You could get a Darwin award!
Just tickling the dragon (drag-on geddit?).
Remi.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 06:20:07 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:03:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall <ad502@iesun9.city.ac.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF, I know nothing but...
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Genial Vorts,

CF is not something I follow extensively, but, the problem with CF is filling the lattice with hydrogen and having desirable lattice sites where the process occurs?

Just thinking laterally, could this be helped by having an electrode with a very high surface area:-

You'll need prob. more than 80 columns to see this:

|Inner     |             |electrode         |     |elctrd  |<-beaker |Permeable | .      .    |           .      |     |        |  wall |Vessel  ->|    .        |  .   .      .    |     |        | |          |   .    .    |   .    .         |     |        | |          | .     .   . | .        .   .   |     |        | |__________|_____________|__________________|_____|________|


The inner permeable vessel (something like a glass electrode) has the LiOD solution and filings of Platinum metal (or whatever you use to send the share price soaring). The gap between the inner vessel and the beaker wall could be filled with any convient electrolyte.

The belief is that the inner vessel will behave as one great big cathode of platinum with a massive surface area and available sites.

Remi.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 06:17:59 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:10:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Cold Fusion in Clay?
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:08:55 +0000
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At 12:24 PM 7/18/97 +0000, Remi wrote:
> 
>Yeah Frederick, go ahead, make my day! (Only kidding! Don't take 
>everthing so seriously!)

Actually I don't. Last time I did, I ended up married for (these past) 44 years. :-)

However, I have been contemplating raiding the brickyards at Nottingham in search of the "Philosopher's Brick" (sp?), or is it a Kidney Stone?
>
>You could get a Darwin award!

Sounds a bit too high-brow for this country boy.

>Just tickling the dragon (drag-on geddit?).

Got it, I think. (Friday and the full moon due tomorrow night) :-)

Regards,    Frederick

>Remi.
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 06:42:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:33:24 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:33:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall <ad502@iesun9.city.ac.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion in Clay?
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On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:

> However, I have been contemplating raiding the brickyards at Nottingham
> in search of the "Philosopher's Brick" (sp?), or is it a Kidney Stone?
> >

Ooh arrr! That be bandit country when the sherrif's not about.

> Actually I don't. Last time I did, I ended up married for (these past)
  44 years. :-)
> (Friday and the full moon due tomorrow night) :-)
> 
A lycanthrope chased out the house with a rolling pin?
> 
Remi.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 18:42:36 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:35:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: CF, I know nothing but...
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:43:33 +0000
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At 01:03 PM 7/18/97 +0000, Remi wrote:
>Genial Vorts,
>
>CF is not something I follow extensively, but, the problem with CF is 
>filling the lattice with hydrogen and having desirable lattice sites 
>where the process occurs?

This is getting to my point, Remi. The Palladium or Nickel, or Titanium lattice (s) are just a "coincidental" means of getting large numbers of protons/deuterons ie., "bare ions" situated either interstitially or on/near the surface where they can form neutral entities when they absorb a light negative "letpton" that is formed from a (rare) pair production phenomenon involving collisions of low energy photons in lieu of elastic scattering from electrons in the vicinity of the "bare" protons/deuterons. With a rest mass hundreds of thousandths that of an electron these particles can achieve near speed-of-light velocities at potentials of a fraction of a volt. Thus if they can't "see" the positive bare proton/deuteron they can't get to it. 

Since the scattering cross-section for an electron is about 8(pi)/3 * Re^2 = 6.62E-25 cm^2 and the "Light Lepton" pair production cross-section could be several orders of magnitude less. 
(Re is the classical radius of the electron, 2.81E-13 cm).

Given that this assumption might be true, absorption of a positive light lepton by an electron or negative one by a proton/deuteron should release something on the order of 256 Kev as photons. Then these neutrals could allow the "quantum-mechanical tunneling"  reactions seen in HOT or COLD Fusion.

In this way a few of these "Light Lepton Pairs" might catalyze numerous reactions and liberate copius amounts of energy and effect numerous transmutation reactions before they annihilate.

The suggestion is that photons whether coming from chemiluminescence or electroluminescence in the CF electrolysis cells at the cathode (and possibly the anode)from chemical reactions near or on the electrode surface produce the catalysis pairs in direct proportion to the cell current, and adjusting the palladium down to particle sizes that yield hectares of surface area/gram, probably won't buy much.

Thus a light source such as microwaving (2.45 gigahertz) bricks or chemical mixes (with lots of bare protons/deuterons)or using light, might get the same results with simpler set-ups. 

Regards,    Frederick

>
>Remi.
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 09:24:25 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: <@snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: CF, I know nothing but...(Arata did) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:13:26 -0400
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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 Remi Cornwall wrote:
> Genial Vorts,
> 
> CF is not something I follow extensively, but, the problem with CF is 
> filling the lattice with hydrogen and having desirable lattice sites 
> where the process occurs?
> 
> Just thinking laterally, could this be helped by having an electrode with

> a very high surface area:-
-------------
Which is just what Arata in Japan did with his cell containing palladium black, extremely small crystal of palladium. He got significant heat release and was able to show that helium and tritium were produced in the palladium black. After a successful heat run, the palladium black was heated in a vacuum and the evolved gasses measured with a quadrupole mass spectrometer. One of the best done and impressive experiments of its kind. 

Mike Carrell
.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 12:07:08 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:01:13 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:07:13 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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cc: webmaster diac.com
Subject: FYIonly crippled e-mail Thursday Resent-Message-ID: <"A5eYo.0.O17.urxpp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Most of you probably have heard/seen this all ready:

"ERROR CRIPPLES INTERNET E-MAIL"

"A human error crippled the Internet for six hours Thursday. 
  Data traffic was thrown ino chaos at 12:30 a.m. MDT when a computer operator at Network Solutions Inc. in Herdon, Va., the company that maintains the equivalent of a master telephone directory for cyberspace, ignored automated alarms signaling problems with the computer that routinely updates Internet addresses. 
  The mistake caused corrupted data to go to 10 other computers that handle the Internet's global network address directories, and thousands - perhaps millions - of e-mail messages were returned as undeliverable."



se  FYIonly
1 of the last Cowboys in Colorado,'the End of 100 year song' -------------------------------------------------------.edu+ back to basic(s)     Steve Ekwall           POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com    1.303.293.2FAX         wk.1.800.798.1100

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 13:01:04 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:40:05 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: Mike Carrell <mikec@snip.net>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF, I know nothing but...(Arata did) Resent-Message-ID: <"6OGxE2.0.oe2.kUypp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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	Dear Folks,


	For about a year we have been able to put metallo-organic Pd onto or maybe in to porous alumina.   The porous alumina is a proprietary wafer used in an obscure area of semiconductor production.  We still have a few wafers left.  We dissolve the Pd salt in water and soak the wafer, or put a spot on the wafer, dry the wafer and then fire in technical furnace at 700 C for an hour.  The result is 	elemental Pd on the alumina or in the alumina 'sponge.  The wafers are 1 by 1 inch to 2 by 2 inch and about 1mm thick.

				JHS


On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Mike Carrell wrote:

>  Remi Cornwall wrote:
> > Genial Vorts,
> > 
> > CF is not something I follow extensively, but, the problem with CF is 
> > filling the lattice with hydrogen and having desirable lattice sites 
> > where the process occurs?
> > 
> > Just thinking laterally, could this be helped by having an electrode with
> 
> > a very high surface area:-
> -------------
> Which is just what Arata in Japan did with his cell containing palladium
> black, extremely small crystal of palladium. He got significant heat
> release and was able to show that helium and tritium were produced in the
> palladium black. After a successful heat run, the palladium black was
> heated in a vacuum and the evolved gasses measured with a quadrupole mass
> spectrometer. One of the best done and impressive experiments of its kind. 
> 
> Mike Carrell
> .
> 
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 15:10:49 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:01:24 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:58:12 -0600 (MDT) From: "John R. Tooker" <jrtooker@freenet.calgary.ab.ca> To: Remi Cornwall <ad502@iesun9.city.ac.uk> Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF, I know nothing but...
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
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Hmmmmm, y'know...... catalytic converters have a certain quantity of platinum in them. Platinum is the catalyst. Would it be possible for a busy little scientific beaver to extract enough, somehow, to be useable?
*Possibly* some sort of electrical thingy, possibly a variation on electrolysis *might* extract enough, if one didn't mind scrambleing around a auto scrapyard..... Just a thought..... from a rustproof rodent <G> Regards,
John

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Remi Cornwall wrote:

> 
> Genial Vorts,
> 
> CF is not something I follow extensively, but, the problem with CF is 
> filling the lattice with hydrogen and having desirable lattice sites 
> where the process occurs?
> 
> Just thinking laterally, could this be helped by having an electrode with 
> a very high surface area:-
> 
> You'll need prob. more than 80 columns to see this:
> 
> |Inner     |             |electrode         |     |elctrd  |<-beaker
> |Permeable | .      .    |           .      |     |        |  wall
> |Vessel  ->|    .        |  .   .      .    |     |        |
> |          |   .    .    |   .    .         |     |        |
> |          | .     .   . | .        .   .   |     |        |  
> |__________|_____________|__________________|_____|________|
> 
> 
> The inner permeable vessel (something like a glass electrode) has the 
> LiOD solution and filings of Platinum metal (or whatever you use to send 
> the share price soaring). The gap between the inner vessel and the beaker 
> wall could be filled with any convient electrolyte.
> 
> The belief is that the inner vessel will behave as one great big cathode 
> of platinum with a massive surface area and available sites.
> 
> Remi.
> 
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 15:10:25 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:02:43 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:59:50 -0600 (MDT) From: "John R. Tooker" <jrtooker@freenet.calgary.ab.ca> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion in Clay?
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
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On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Remi Cornwall wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
> 
> > However, I have been contemplating raiding the brickyards at Nottingham
> > in search of the "Philosopher's Brick" (sp?), or is it a Kidney Stone?
> > >
> 
> Ooh arrr! That be bandit country when the sherrif's not about.
Watch out for Farmer Palmer...... "Get offa me laaaaaaaaaand....." <G> John

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 18:42:12 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Cold Fusion in Clay?
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:05:14 +0000
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At 09:59 PM 7/18/97 +0000, John R. Tooker wrote:
>
>
>
>On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Remi Cornwall wrote:
>
>> 
>> On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>> 
>> > However, I have been contemplating raiding the brickyards at Nottingham
>> > in search of the "Philosopher's Brick" (sp?), or is it a Kidney Stone?
>> > >
>> 
>> Ooh arrr! That be bandit country when the sherrif's not about.
>Watch out for Farmer Palmer...... "Get offa me laaaaaaaaaand....." <G>
>John
>
I'd be more wary of "Sheriff cum Philosopher" Chris Tinsley, and that damn "razor" that he got off some guy named Occum.    :-)

Regards,    Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 18:44:05 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: CF, I know nothing but...
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:05:17 +0000
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At 09:58 PM 7/18/97 +0000, John R. Tooker wrote:
>
>Hmmmmm, y'know...... catalytic converters have a certain quantity of
>platinum in them. Platinum is the catalyst. Would it be possible for a
>busy little scientific beaver to extract enough, somehow, to be useable?
>*Possibly* some sort of electrical thingy, possibly a variation on
>electrolysis *might* extract enough, if one didn't mind scrambleing around
>a auto scrapyard..... Just a thought..... from a rustproof rodent <G>
>Regards,
>John
>
I think a lot of the catalytic converters on automobiles use a goodly quantity of Palladium in them since the cost of Platinum is quite a bit higher than Gold. I used the beads for a propane-air heater that could get up past 1500 C for a biomass converter set-up. Back then (1984-85) you could get them at a junk yard for $10.00. Sure put out a lot of lead and SOx until you burnt it and the carbon out. 

You can heat the alumina beads with NaOH or KOH, or possibly the KOH-K2CO3 leached from wood ashes to form the water soluble Alkali-Aluminate to get the Pt-Pd metals from the catalyst beads.
If you want KOH only from leached wood-biomass ashes you have to treat it with lime Ca(OH)2.

Have Fun!  :-)

Regards,     Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 16:59:13 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:24:57 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:21:28 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> Subject: Gravity.... now don't get all crazy...
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	Dear Vo.,

	Here is the experiment.  Remember the header.

	a] pendulum is set up and device in magnetically and electrically shielded can.   Litz wires supply power and only introduce moderate physical impairment.
	b] pendulum is started and period is counted.  
	c] power is applied but gizmo in can is not in active mode.  
Power draw in active mode is within 10% of "dead" mode.   Period is counted in "dead mode". 

	SO:   Pendulum period is same with 
		i] 	no power
		ii]	power and dead mode

	d]	Pendulum period changes in active mode.  Period is more rapid.

	What is the 'main stream' explanation of what is changed....?

	Is it or would it be, inertial mass of gizmo?

			What.

				JHS

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 16:53:28 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:49:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Martin Sevior <msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca> To: vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu> Subject: Re: Gravity.... now don't get all crazy...
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Hi John,
	I'm sure we were all wondering about your research in this direction. We'd need a lot more information and clarification before talking about changes in inertial or gravitational mass.

Here are some questions.

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, John Schnurer wrote:

>
> 	Dear Vo.,
>
> 	Here is the experiment.  Remember the header.
>
> 	a] pendulum is set up and device in magnetically and electrically
> shielded can.   Litz wires supply power and only introduce moderate
> physical impairment.

OK.

0. Is the device some sort of gizmo that's meant to alter mass?

1. Is the device contained in the can?

2. Is pendulum close to the can?

3. Does the pendulum swing above the can?

> 	b] pendulum is started and period is counted.

4. How do you measure the period?

5. What is the accuracy with which you measure the period?

6. What is the decay time of the pendulum?


> 	c] power is applied but gizmo in can is not in active mode.
> Power draw in active mode is within 10% of "dead" mode.   Period is
> counted in "dead mode".
>
> 	SO:   Pendulum period is same with
> 		i] 	no power
> 		ii]	power and dead mode

6. What is the period and what is your measurement accuracy?

>
> 	d]	Pendulum period changes in active mode.  Period is more rapid.
>

7. What else changes in active mode?

> 	What is the 'main stream' explanation of what is changed....?
>

8. Impossible to say on the basis of the information supplied.

> 	Is it or would it be, inertial mass of gizmo?
>
> 			What.
>
> 				JHS

Really John, you can't expect us to comment with such a sketchy description.
Science requires a full report including all the details. All sorts of subtle effects are possible and we don't even know what the size of the supposed effect is you observe.

Martin Sevior


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 17:33:01 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:29:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Martin Sevior <msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Hackensack N.J.
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Here's Robert Park's view of the vents at Hackensack.

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 18 Jul 97   Washington, DC

1. PERPETUUM MOBILE: FREE ENERGY COMPETITION IS HEATING UP.  On Saturday I went to Hackensack, NJ for the "historic first public showing of a perpetual motion machine."  The 5-hour show included an internal combustion engine that runs on water, a radioactive waste neutralizer, electrical energy from neutrino flux and much, much more. You thought maybe a perpetual motion machine would be historic enough?  The centerpiece was the "Fisher engine," which runs off ambient heat. It was historic all right; it was nothing but the "zeromotor" which was "invented" by John Gamgee in 1880.
It didn't work then either, but at least it was original.  What ever happened to the clever hoaxes of the past?  Must we content ourselves with sloppy remakes?  It appears that the standards, even of flim flam, have eroded. Personally, I blame television.


Some Vorexians may also be interested in this item.

2. OFFICE OF ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE: SCIENTISTS LAUNCH AN ATTACK.
APS President D. Allan Bromley joined leading biologists last week in calling for elimination of the NIH Office of Alternative Medicine.  In a letter to John Porter (R-IL), HHS Appropriations Subcommittee chair, Bromley charged that the OAM has promoted practices "which clearly violate basic laws of physics and more nearly resemble witchcraft than medicine."  The Subcommittee decided to cut the OAM budget to $7.5M, from its current $12.5M, in keeping with the President's request.  That sets up a fight with the Senate, where the OAM originated in 1992 as an earmark.



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 17:42:44 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:33:04 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:30:09 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gravity.... now don't get all crazy...
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.970718163804.19116A-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca> Resent-Message-ID: <"1-YHL2.0.fn5.-i0qp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Martin Sevior wrote:
> Really John, you can't expect us to comment with such a sketchy description.
> Science requires a full report including all the details. All sorts of
> subtle effects are possible and we don't even know what the size of the
> supposed effect is you observe.

"All sorts of subtle effects are possible". 
Well there's puzzle, -- what are some of these? 

How's it hanging? Rigid, from some kind of bearing?
You could increase friction in the bearing, if the gizmo in the can is a non-gymballed gyroscope.

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 18:47:22 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:40:26 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:36:52 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: Martin Sevior <msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca> cc: vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> Subject: Notes in text Re: Gravity.... now don't get all crazy...
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> > 	Here is the experiment.  Remember the header.
> >
> > 	a] pendulum is set up and device in magnetically and electrically
> > shielded can.   Litz wires supply power and only introduce moderate
> > physical impairment.
> 
> OK.
> 
> 0. Is the device some sort of gizmo that's meant to alter mass?

	Am investigating.  I will be the first to say I don't KNOW WHAT it is doing ... which is what mkes it so much fun!

> 
> 1. Is the device contained in the can?
> 
> 2. Is pendulum close to the can?
> 
> 3. Does the pendulum swing above the can?
> 

	The can is the pendulum, the gizmo is in the can.  It really is a can.  13 oz coffee can.


> > 	b] pendulum is started and period is counted.
> 
> 4. How do you measure the period?
> 
> 5. What is the accuracy with which you measure the period?
> 
> 6. What is the decay time of the pendulum?
> 
	Counts by eye, too son to givr hard numbers yet, please be patient.

> 
> > 	c] power is applied but gizmo in can is not in active mode.
> > Power draw in active mode is within 10% of "dead" mode.   Period is
> > counted in "dead mode".
> >
> > 	SO:   Pendulum period is same with
> > 		i] 	no power
> > 		ii]	power and dead mode
> 
> 6. What is the period and what is your measurement accuracy?
> 
> >
> > 	d]	Pendulum period changes in active mode.  Period is more rapid.
> >
> 
> 7. What else changes in active mode?
> 

	Nothing I see yet.  Details as I get them.

> > 	What is the 'main stream' explanation of what is changed....?
> >
> 
> 8. Impossible to say on the basis of the information supplied.
> 
> > 	Is it or would it be, inertial mass of gizmo?
> >
> > 			What.
> >
> > 				JHS
> 
> Really John, you can't expect us to comment with such a sketchy description.
> Science requires a full report including all the details. All sorts of
> subtle effects are possible and we don't even know what the size of the
> supposed effect is you observe.
> 
> Martin Sevior
> 

	Report coming.   Just starting.
> 
> 	And, yes, I realize it is crude.

			J

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 18:49:54 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:44:19 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:40:57 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu> Subject: In text....Re: Gravity.... now don't get all crazy...
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On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Robert Stirniman wrote:
> 
> "All sorts of subtle effects are possible". 
> Well there's puzzle, -- what are some of these? 
> 
> How's it hanging? Rigid,

	String.  Cotton kite string.

	Gizmo electronic.

 from some kind of bearing?
> You could increase friction in the bearing, if the gizmo 
> in the can is a non-gymballed gyroscope.
> 

	No gyro......  but I might try that too.   I do have a big REALLY rude old guidance gyro .... by rude I mean when spun up it is almost impossible to more on gimbals with full body weight.   Scared me when I first ran it up.... took minuites to get up to speed!



> Regards,
> Robert Stirniman
> 
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 19:00:10 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:54:20 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:54:14 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Gravity.... now don't get all crazy...
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At 04:49 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Martin Sevior wrote:

>Really John, you can't expect us to comment with such a sketchy description.

I agree with Martin.  However, if that is all the info that is available then I find that my mind automatically fills in the necessary details for a mundane explanation:

I guess that "dead mode" has the current passing thru a resistor in the can and "active mode" has it passing thru a coil which creates a magnetic field.

The whole apparatus is set up on a steel table so that, in active mode, the can is attracted to the table magnetically and that force adds to the gravitational attraction and increases the oscillation frequency of the pendulum.

Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 19:46:13 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:40:31 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:40:21 -0400 (EDT) From: lewis edward <lewis3@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: cold fusion and EV info., scientific revolutions Resent-Message-ID: <"z3abj3.0._54.Va2qp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Hello. 
  If any one is interested in the topic of cold fusion or in other new science topics, or if you are interested in scientific revolutions or in technological revolutions, please check out my web site at www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4946.

        There you'll find some of the latest research on what is called cold fusion, or novel elemental production, and plasmoid research, what Ken Shoulders calls EVs.  I'm doing the latest research.  You'll also find good links to link to lots of different topics. 

	I may have found proof of the production of micrometer sized plasmoids in electrolysis cells, confirming Matsumoto's work during this decade.  There are lots of pictures of markings like plasmoid markings on various parts of ceti electrolysis cells in Prof. George Miley's lab.
This is the first confirmation of plasmoid production in electrolysis cells.  The significance of this may be that various types of devices may now be relatable as plasmoid devices.  New atomic theory is required.

	I first proposed new atomic theory based on Matsumoto's and K. 
Shoulders work.  I identified the phenomena that Matsumoto was producing as ball lightning marks, and first identified the phenomena of ball lightning and of plasmoids based on experimental evidence.  As far as I know I was the first to propose that the tiny plasmoids have superconducting aspects, and propose hypotheses about high temp superconductivity.  I proposed that the emission of plasmoids is associated with transmutation, and that plasmoids are associated with transmutation, based on Matsumoto's heavy element transformation article in Fusion Technology in 1992.  Matsumoto has priority in the experimental investigation of this area.  I've introduced a lot of other new theory as well that is also being confirmed.  I predicted that people would find electrical output as both plasmoids and plasmoid waves.  Matsumoto had tried to publish his observation of new kinds of electrical current.  I predicted that people would find geophysical phenomena like earthquakes and volcanoes in their devices, and that tiny plasmoids would be emitted by the earth during earthquakes, which is something that Matsumoto has recently found by placing nuclear emulsions in sites of earthquakes in Japan.  He finds the same kinds of marks as he did via electrolysis and discharge, though some of the marks are a little different and bigger. I identified tornadoes and ball lightning, and shown that the some phenomena of elemental production and energy production going on in electrolysis cells and plasmoid devices also goes on in ball lightning and tornadoes. 
Ball lightning sometimes seems to have very much higher energies then would be predicted by any chemical means.  There is evidence of elemental transformation and also of matter disappearance in and around ball lightning, suggesting that atoms are converting to new atoms and light and electricity. 

	Picture #2 in the first article on the web site is really important because it shows multiple ring marks on the Lexan casing of a cell that contained nickle on plastic microspheres.  It is this cell that G. Miley has authored extensive articles about.  These ring markings are similar to those shown by Matsumoto.

	There has been a lot of research on plasmoids during the last 3 decades that people may not be familiar with.
  
	This scientific revolution currently going on is important. I predicted this before it became apparent in 1989 by my theory of scientific revolutions and of Kondratiev depressions.  I have an article about this on http://www.padrak.com/ine/ELEWIS6.html


        If you have any questions please contact me.           



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 20:36:24 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:28:57 -0700 X-Sender: quinney@inforamp.net
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:24:58 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Gravity.... now don't get all crazy...
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At 08:54 PM 7/18/97 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>At 04:49 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Martin Sevior wrote:
>
>>Really John, you can't expect us to comment with such a sketchy description.
>
>I agree with Martin.  However, if that is all the info that is available
>then I find that my mind automatically fills in the necessary details for a
>mundane explanation:
>
>I guess that "dead mode" has the current passing thru a resistor in the can
>and "active mode" has it passing thru a coil which creates a magnetic field.
>
>The whole apparatus is set up on a steel table so that, in active mode, the
>can is attracted to the table magnetically and that force adds to the
>gravitational attraction and increases the oscillation frequency of the
>pendulum.

Gentlemen, gentlemen: 
It is obvious that the period must decrease during those conditions, not increase; (Lenz's Law.)

The question I would like answered is profound...If an observer looks into the can just prior to initiation of the pendulum swing, would that simple act of observation set "whatever" is inside the can to be active or dead.?
Maybe there is a sick cat in the can.... and maybe the cat has buttered toast strapped to his back, ( butter side up! )... 

Enjoy.

Colin Quinney
Toronto, canada.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 21:34:03 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:22:06 -0700 X-Sender: ewall-rsg@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: CF, I know nothing but...(Arata did) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 04:18:21 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"0i0Wn1.0.3s.j34qp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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> Remi Cornwall wrote:
>> Genial Vorts,
>> 
>> CF is not something I follow extensively, but, the problem with CF is 
>> filling the lattice with hydrogen and having desirable lattice sites 
>> where the process occurs?
>> 
>> Just thinking laterally, could this be helped by having an electrode with
>
>> a very high surface area:-
>-------------
Mike Carrell wrote:
>Which is just what Arata in Japan did with his cell containing palladium
>black, extremely small crystal of palladium. He got significant heat
>release and was able to show that helium and tritium were produced in the
>palladium black. After a successful heat run, the palladium black was
>heated in a vacuum and the evolved gasses measured with a quadrupole mass
>spectrometer. One of the best done and impressive experiments of its kind. 
>

Ed Wall wrote:
Mike, I agree with your assessment.  Arata & Zhang's work appears to be of the highest quality with precise anomalous results very hard to dispute.
However, unless you know something I don't, they did not claim to produce tritium, although it is indicated.

Specifically (p.54 of IE#12), "The existence of 3T will be required that the process is responsible for the generation of 3He as the Rutherford reaction.
The proof for the existence of 3T within the 'closed QMS', however, was not obtained in this experiment."

The abstracts of their articles reproduced claim 3He/4He ratio from 0.1 to 0.25 as compared to atmospherically derived He with 3H3/4He of 0.00013 caught Kirk Shanahan's attention, who replied to me that if their methods and analysis are good, that this would be compelling evidence.  There was a misprint in these articles about the ratio 4He/D2, which Dr. Chubb corrected to be from 0.1 to 0.5, instead of the gobbledegook that appeared.     THAT IS A LOT OF HELIUM WITH A VERY ANOMALOUS ISOTOPIC RATIO IN A VERY REPRODUCABLE EXPERIMENT.

Dr. Chubb also provided several references that Dr. Arata listed, some of which I obtained.  Two were about dislocation loop punching by bubbles (single or in arrays) by W.G. Wolfer (Philos. Mag. A 58, 285 (1989); ibid.
59, 87 (1989)) and one was about helium release from aged palladium tritide (G.C. Abel, et al., Phys. Rev. B 41, 1220 (1990)).  The latter article is especially interesting and informative because it is research done in response to initial CF claims, pointing out that He detections are likely erroneous because He just will not leave the lattice, even with loading as high as 3He/Pd = 0.3, unless considerable heat is used.  Arata & Zhang's work seems to be largely a retort to this early criticism of anomalous He detection.

Dr. Chubb also points out that Dr. Arata used Pd-Ag alloys as filters to obtain pure D2 early in his long career, indicating that helium does not dissolve in Pd.

Ulrich's International Periodicals Directory (1997). lists "Koon Gakkaishi/High Temperature Society Journal" as having "text in Japanese, summaries in English."  I would appreciate advice on getting an English translation or either or both articles by Arata & Zhang.

Hasta,

Ed Wall

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 18 21:28:02 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:58:38 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:05:48 -0700
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net> Reply-To: rmforall@earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, wireless@rmii.com Subject: Claytor tritium abstract
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LAUR#96-1825 

TRITIUM PRODUCTION FROM PALLADIUM AND PALLADIUM ALLOYS T. N. Claytor, M. J. Schwab and D. G. Tuggle, Los Alamos National Laboratory Los Alamos, NM 87545 

ABSTRACT: 

A number (22) of pure palladium samples and palladium alloys have been loaded with a deuterium
or hydrogen plasma in a system that allows the instantaneous measurement of tritium. By carefully
controlling the high pressure plasma conditions, the plasma can be constrained to only contact
palladium surfaces and to only lightly sputter the palladium. Long run times (up to 200 h) result in an
integration of the tritium and this, coupled with the high intrinsic sensitivity of the system( ~ 0.1nCi/l), enables the significance of the tritium measurement to be many sigma (
>10 ). In addition to the real
time tritium measurement, the deuterium gas can be combined with oxygen, at the end of a run,
resulting in water samples that were counted in a scintillation counter.
The results of these
confirmatory measurements of the tritium, in these water samples, agree quantitatively with the
decrease in tritium as measured by the ion sensor. However, surprising concentrations (up to 1.5 x
106 dpm/ml) of tritium were found in several samples that had been exposed to a hydride inhibitor.
We have continued to investigate the effect of hydrogen additions on the output of tritium in these
types of experiments and find that hydrogen additions always suppress tritium production. We will
show the difference in tritium generation rates between batches of annealed palladium, as received
palladium and the palladium alloys (Rh, Co, Cu, Ni, Be, B, Li, Hf, Hg and Fe) of various
concentrations to illustrate that tritium generation rate can vary greatly from alloy to alloy as well as
within a specific alloy, dependent on concentration. Other metals (Pt, Hf, Ni, Nb, Ta, V, W, Zr)
have also been run in the system as background samples or to determine if tritium could be detected
in the gas analysis system. In nearly all cases they have produced results very close to background
drift rates. 

Our most recent paper, Plasma Discharges on Palladium, was published last year and can be viewed
by clicking here. 

The following people can provide you with more information: 
      Thomas Claytor

                                                 Mark Schwab



Visits to this page: 



Back to Cold Fusion page.

Back to NDT&E Home Page.

Web site developed by Mark Schwab, please email corrections, questions or comments to
NDE lanl.gov

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 19 04:53:00 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 04:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: <@snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: CF, I know nothing but...(Arata did)[Arata quote] Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 07:38:35 -0400
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Snipping a lengthy exchange, Ed Wall said:

> Mike, I agree with your assessment.  Arata & Zhang's work appears to be of
> the highest quality with precise anomalous results very hard to dispute.
> However, unless you know something I don't, they did not claim to produce
> tritium, although it is indicated.

I have the full text of the Arata & Zhang report in vol. 23 of the Journal of High Temperature Society of Japan, courtesy of Gene Mallove. From the abstract:

"Using a quarupole mass spectrometer (QMS), significantly large amounts of helium (4,2He/D2 approx. (1-0.2)10^2, and 4,2He/3,2He approx. 4, D2:fuel, 4,2He,3,2He:ash), were detected from deuterated palladium samples that had produced large amounts of anomalous excess energy (200-500 MJ/cm^3) during cold fusion experiments (approx 5000 hr). The helium was released from the samples after observation of excess energy, and only when each sample was heated to a high temperature (over 1000C) in a high vacuum (approx. 3 x10^-9 torr).....Because there is no known process that can account for the diffusion of the large amounts of helium into the interior locations of the various samples at the levels that were measured, the only possible explanation for the helium being trapped in this fashion is that it was trapped within each sample after it was first produced as the nuclear "ash" from an electrolytically induced (Cold Fusion) deuterium nuclear reaction."

I may be misreading 3,2He as tritium. Further inspection of the reaction pathways shown as Fig. 3 of the paper shows 3,1T, which is probably the proper designation of tritium. 

However, this is very thorough work of very high quality and should settle any quibbles about the helium ash not being found in the detuerated palladium reactions. The reason others hadn't seen it is given above.
Helium doesn't diffuse into or out of palladium (unless heated above 1000 C in a vacuum), so if one expects He to bubble out of a cell, he will be disappointed (or triumphant, if you want the experiment to fail).

Mike Carrell 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 19 16:00:30 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:47:05 -0700 X-Sender: quinney@inforamp.net
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 18:43:03 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Gravity.... now don't get all crazy...
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At 07:21 PM 7/18/97 -0400, JHS wrote:
>
>	Dear Vo.,
>
>	Here is the experiment.  Remember the header.
>
>	a] pendulum is set up and device in magnetically and electrically 
>shielded can.   Litz wires supply power and only introduce moderate 
>physical impairment.
>	b] pendulum is started and period is counted.  
>	c] power is applied but gizmo in can is not in active mode.  
>Power draw in active mode is within 10% of "dead" mode.   Period is 
>counted in "dead mode". 
>
>	SO:   Pendulum period is same with 
>		i] 	no power
>		ii]	power and dead mode
>
>	d]	Pendulum period changes in active mode.  Period is more rapid.
>
>	What is the 'main stream' explanation of what is changed....?
>
>	Is it or would it be, inertial mass of gizmo?
>
>			What.
>				JHS

Hi John:

(Serious mode) I really feel guilty about those dumb jokes about Lenz's Law and the cat, etc, so I hope I can redeem myself by attempting a  'main stream' explanation...

(First, let us assume that the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum is *not* broken.)

Therefore, it is possible that the 'gizmo', inside the can, is some type of electrically activated, axially oriented, solenoid...and when the solenoid is activated, it pulls up a slug of iron core. This action would change the Centre of Mass 'inside the can'. With the Centre of Mass changed, you have effectively changed the length of the pendulum ...and also the Period. 

But *if* this scenario is correct, I don't understand why any power would be necessary in the 'dead' mode...(?)

Please let us know what you find.

Colin Quinney,
Toronto, Canada


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 19 16:05:50 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 18:56:22 -0400 (EDT) From: lewis edward <lewis3@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: cold fusion and EV info., scientific revolutions Resent-Message-ID: <"3WNJh.0.cN1.OPKqp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Geoff Egel wrote:

> At 10:40 PM 7/18/97 -0400, you wrote:
> tried to get to  your site but unable to do so
> is this the correct address
> Geoff
> 
THis is strange.  Is anyone else having trouble getting it?  
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4946

If this doesn't work an alternative way would be to link through the INE web site: http://www.padrak.com/ine
look for the link to my site from his recent additions file for May.

Could you tell me if you get it?

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 19 20:12:09 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:06:40 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF, I know nothing but...(Arata did) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 03:05:02 GMT
Organization: Improving
References: <19970719041819.AAA21924 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"aENus1.0.t83.y2Oqp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 04:18:21 +0000, Ed Wall wrote: [snip]
>Ed Wall wrote:
>Mike, I agree with your assessment.  Arata & Zhang's work appears to be of
>the highest quality with precise anomalous results very hard to dispute.
>However, unless you know something I don't, they did not claim to produce
>tritium, although it is indicated.
>
>Specifically (p.54 of IE#12), "The existence of 3T will be required that the
>process is responsible for the generation of 3He as the Rutherford reaction.
>The proof for the existence of 3T within the 'closed QMS', however, was not
>obtained in this experiment."
[snip]
Am I mistaken, or would the H + D -> He3 reaction explain the absence of T, yet the presence of a large amount of He3?


Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 19 03:49:11 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Intended-For: knuke@aa.net
Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 03:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 21:43:30 +1000
X-Sender: egel main.murray.net.au (Unverified) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Geoff Egel <egel main.murray.net.au> Subject: Re: cold fusion and EV info., scientific revolutions Resent-Message-ID: <"l_x3U3.0.qw6.c49qp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 10:40 PM 7/18/97 -0400, you wrote:
tried to get to  your site but unable to do so is this the correct address
Geoff

http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel









>Hello. 
>  If any one is interested in the topic of cold fusion or in other
>new science topics, or if you are interested in scientific 
>revolutions or in technological revolutions, please check out my web site at
>www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4946.
>
>        There you'll find some of the latest research on what is called
>cold fusion, or novel elemental production, and plasmoid research, what
>Ken Shoulders calls EVs.  I'm doing the latest research.  You'll also find
>good links to link to lots of different topics. 
>
>	I may have found proof of the production of micrometer sized 
>plasmoids in electrolysis cells, confirming Matsumoto's work during this 
>decade.  There are lots of pictures of markings like plasmoid markings on 
>various parts of ceti electrolysis cells in Prof. George Miley's lab.
>This is the first confirmation of plasmoid production in electrolysis 
>cells.  The significance of this may be that various types of devices may 
>now be relatable as plasmoid devices.  New atomic theory is required.
>
>	I first proposed new atomic theory based on Matsumoto's and K. 
>Shoulders work.  I identified the phenomena that Matsumoto was producing
>as ball lightning marks, and first identified the phenomena of ball
>lightning and of plasmoids based on experimental evidence.  As far as I
>know I was the first to propose that the tiny plasmoids have
>superconducting aspects, and propose hypotheses about high temp
>superconductivity.  I proposed that the emission of plasmoids is
>associated with transmutation, and that plasmoids are associated with
>transmutation, based on Matsumoto's heavy element transformation article
>in Fusion Technology in 1992.  Matsumoto has priority in the experimental
>investigation of this area.  I've introduced a lot of other new theory as
>well that is also being confirmed.  I predicted that people would find
>electrical output as both plasmoids and plasmoid waves.  Matsumoto had
>tried to publish his observation of new kinds of electrical current.  I
>predicted that people would find geophysical phenomena like earthquakes
>and volcanoes in their devices, and that tiny plasmoids would be emitted
>by the earth during earthquakes, which is something that Matsumoto has
>recently found by placing nuclear emulsions in sites of earthquakes in
>Japan.  He finds the same kinds of marks as he did via electrolysis and
>discharge, though some of the marks are a little different and bigger. I
>identified tornadoes and ball lightning, and shown that the some phenomena
>of elemental production and energy production going on in electrolysis
>cells and plasmoid devices also goes on in ball lightning and tornadoes. 
>Ball lightning sometimes seems to have very much higher energies then
>would be predicted by any chemical means.  There is evidence of elemental
>transformation and also of matter disappearance in and around ball
>lightning, suggesting that atoms are converting to new atoms and light and
>electricity. 
>
>	Picture #2 in the first article on the web site is really 
>important because it shows multiple ring marks on the Lexan casing of a 
>cell that contained nickle on plastic microspheres.  It is this cell that 
>G. Miley has authored extensive articles about.  These ring markings are 
>similar to those shown by Matsumoto.
>
>	There has been a lot of research on plasmoids during the last 3 
>decades that people may not be familiar with.
>  
>	This scientific revolution currently going on is important. I
>predicted this before it became apparent in 1989 by my theory of
>scientific revolutions and of Kondratiev depressions.  I have an article
>about this on http://www.padrak.com/ine/ELEWIS6.html
>
>
>        If you have any questions please contact me.           
>
>
>
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 20 03:48:11 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 03:43:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: rl_brodzinski@pnl.gov
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Swimming Pool Reactor, Waste Cleanup?
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:34:47 +0000
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Ron:

The blue Cerenkov radiation visible in "Swimming Pool" reactors should create "Light Leptons" in the reactors. If the water is acidic enough to have an abundance of "free" Protons/Deuterons, the Light Leptons should create the neutral entities that we have been referring to as "Quasi-Neutrons" for the past decade or so.

With that scenario, putting nuclear wastes in the "Pool" as chlorides or such, should make a convienient way to clean them up a lot faster than the reactor is making them?   :-)

Regards,    Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 20 15:30:00 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:18:53 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: g-miley@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: "George H. Miley" <g-miley uiuc.edu> Subject: Perkins questions/Miley transmutations Cc: g-miley@uiuc.edu
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To: John Perkins (LLNL)
From: "George H. Miley" <g-miley uiuc.edu> Subject: Cold fusion/response to Perkins John - I have pasted my responses into your note. Let me know if you have questions or comments.
George
>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>From:	perkins3 llnl.gov (John Perkins)
>To:	georgehm aol.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu
>Date: 97-07-04 04:55:57 EDT
>
>
>George:
>
>Someone at the lab gave me a copy of Eugene Mallove's recent article "Cold
>Fusion: The Miracle is No Mistake", and asked me my impressions. FYI,
>here's my reply. I'd be particularly interested in your answer to my two
>sets of questions at the end, particular the measurement ones.
>
>John
>
>--------------------------.
>
>ask:
>
>    Re claimed heat production:
>
>(1) Given a claimed heat production and gain from a typical cell, can a
>competent, disinterested electrochemist tell us whether it can be
>unambiguously measured as a real effect? The two answers surely can only be
>either:" Yes, it is possible devise a closed cycle calorimeter capable of
>making such a measurement" or, "No, it's impossible to measure this with
>sufficient accuracy against the uncertainties". If the answer is the
>former, are there neutral electrochemists who will undertake this task?
============================================================================ =========================

I used flow calorimetry with an assigned accuracy of only about +_ 0.5W due to possible heat conduction losses and channel flow. While the uncertainty is large, the measured outputs were large enough to indicate an definitive small excess. See the Texas AM and ICCF-6 papers.(Did I send them to you??
if not, let me know). More precise work in this area is needed to obtain a time dependent correlation between heat and the "reaction products" discussed below -- it would be great if a "neutral" electrochemist would do this. Do you know of any at LLNL???
============================================================================ =========================
>
>(2) If you are claiming excess heat generation, then what is the "fuel" and
>where is the "ash". Since, presumably, E=mc^2 will still be operating,
>something must be being "burnt" and changing mass.
============================================================================ =====================

I obtain reasonable agreement by calculating the excess heat  using the binding energies of all product isotopes observed minus the binding energies for H+Ni (assuming nucleon conservation). For the Ni runs the result is a fraction of a watt out as observed, etc. Thus, in this theory, H+Ni are the "fuels". There is not precise agreement with all runs for different metals (e.g H+Pd would be the fuel for the Pd run) listed in ICCF-6, but the trends predicted vs. measurement are reasonable. If you want, I can supply spread sheets. This model represents one possibility. I have been working with some others on an alternate, more involved theory, that brings Li from the electrolyte in. In that case too, the energetics can work out reasonably well. In conclusion, while the answer about the fuel is not certain yet, it generally appears to involve the base metal.
============================================================================ =========================
>
>    Re claimed nuclide production:
>
>(1) Similar to the calorimetry test above, given a claimed
>production/transmutation of nuclides, can a competent, disinterested mass
>spectroscopist tell us whether it can be unambiguously measured as a real
>effect? Surely, it's possible to run an unambiguous 'before and after tests
>on these systems using, for example, our very precise CAMS system at LLNL?
============================================================================ =============================

In my view, the before and after analyses we reported in the two earlier conference papers are quite complete and still stand up after additional studies. Certainly it would be excellent if LLNL did repeat the analyses.
However the real issue, I believe, is not the analysis but whether or not some unknown source of impurities exists in the system. Thus LLNL should not only do an analysis of components, but do the experiment itself to confirm that all impurities are accounted for in the before-after measurements.
============================================================================ =============================
>
>(2) If you are claiming nuclide production (and, therefore, real "fusion"),
>then (a) what are the reactants, (b) where are the nuclear signatures (c)
>how are you getting around the quantum mechanical barrier tunneling
>constraint?
============================================================================ ============================

In my theory to date, the reactants are p+Ni (see question 1 above); however there are alternate possibities e.g. involving the Li in the electrolyte. My approach attempts to explain the array of "products" via a fission of a compound nucleus (a type of  "fusion" might be viewed as the way the nucleus is formed.) The array of isotopes ("products"), having high yields concentrated in four regions (peaks) of mass lying above and below the mass of the base metal represent the nuclear "signature". To explain the reaction, I am considering several theories for barrier tunneling, starting from our earlier swimming electron layer (SEL) theory, but drastically modifying it. Others are looking at a neutron based model and an EV cluster model.This is all too involved to discuss in detail here. The real question is whether there is a  theory that agrees with the "signature"? I am still struggling with that in my modeling, but a colleague is just about to publish a paper on a neutron-based reaction mechanism and a new liquid drop fission model that does do a remarkable job in predicting the 4-mass peak "signature"! Hopefully that will be out soon. I do plan to talk about theory in more detail at the NASA Breakthrough Physics meeting in August, and I will send you a copy of those slides after the meeting.
===========================================================================

>
>These two sets of questions should be addressed in order. First agree you
>have an unambiguous, real effect and then try to explain it. Surely, given
>the precision of our diagnostic tools today, the first should be reasonably
>straight forward?
===========================================================================

John - nothing is straight forward in this field!!!! But, please look at the evidence to date - I am confident of the analysis, but can think of two "errors" that would make me want to retract my conclusions:  1- a systematic error in the analytic "before-after" measurements (unlikely since I have used several different techniques for confirmation) or  2- discovery of an unrecognized source of impurities in the "clean' cell (there are always some impurities, but the "before-after" analysis subtracts out impurities coming from the initial metal films, from the fresh electrolyte, etc.).
To date, I find no evidence for either error, so I remain confident of the data.

Let me know if I can supply further information.
Regards, 
George
============================================================================ ==============================
>







-------------------------
George H. Miley
University of Illinois
Fusion Studies Lab - 100 NEL
103 S. Goodwin Ave.
Urbana, Il 61801 USA
------------------------
Vox: 217-3333772
Fax: 217-3332906
e-mail: g-miley uiuc.edu

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 20 15:31:02 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:19:17 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:19:09 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: g-miley@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: "George H. Miley" <g-miley uiuc.edu> Subject: Murray critiques of Miley
Cc: g-miley uiuc.edu
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To: John Zetts(NASA)
Fom: "George H. Miley" <g-miley uiuc.edu> Subject: Murray critiques
Cc: Richard Murray


Dear John: 

    Richard Murray recently forwarded several of his "critiques" to you, stating they would throw some light on my Dayton seminar presentation.
Murray has done a dedicated job of pouring through my two conference papers and has raised some good points-- e.g. as he states, more needs to be done to understand product distributions in the bead bed. However the main thrust of his critiques,  that the +- 15% uncertainly of the NAA invalidates the isotope ratios, is simply an error in his understanding of what we did. As stressed in the first paper, the isotope ratios were measured by SIMS while NAA was used to obtain absolute concentrations. Thus the isotope ratio uncertainties are determined from the SIMS data, not from the NAA data as Murray assumes. Consequently the table he presents (and forwarded to Morrison) is simply not applicable. For example, the uncertainly in the SIMS Cu and Ag ratios were +-2-3% of the ratio itself instead of the +-15% of each isotope concentration  which he uses in the table. Thus, the uncertainties involved in all of the ratios are much smaller than he concludes. Further, he seems to ignore the point made in the papers that "special" NAA measurements of isotope ratios for Cu and Ag were made to check the SIMS using simultaneous detection  of gammas from each isotope (not done in the "normal " NAA used for concentrations). This simultaneous gamma measurement had +- 2-4% uncertainty. As cited in the paper, the trends found were similar to SIMS results for these two elements, but the shifts measured by NAA were somewhat larger. This comparison was reassuring since the SIMS measurements were done on individual beads whereas the NAA used 100 bead samples.  We could not take time (or money) to do a similar confirmations for all 70 or so elements observed. However, as I stated in the Dayton seminar, if only one of the elements observed can be shown to be "produced" (based on the increased mass of the element after the run plus its isotope shift), that is sufficient proof that transmutations can occur.
In the Ni runs, Cu and Ag are prime candidates displaying those two characteristics

   Two further comments about Murray's critiques --

   First, he worries that the SIMS probe beam created some of the elements.
SIMS is so widely used that others should have seen this if it happens.
Further, in the present case, since SIMS was done before and after a run, anything created would have been subtracted out in taking the different to obtain a net "yield". Also, there was nothing "new" observable in the SIMS analysis before a run. Thus I dismiss the SIMS as contributing to element production.
 
   Second, the NAA analyses were done with a NIST certified reference sample of the element(s) in place in each case. The accuracy then varies, depending on the element being detected, the background, the neutron fluence, etc., (standard procedure for high precision NAA with reference standards) and the 15% was cited to illustrate a conservative average value. Actual values ranged from 1% to over 30%, depending on the sample and irradiation conditions. This explains why we could measure some low concentration elements that Murray questions. For example,  V(ppm)= 2.56+-.20 after run #8 and .06+-.02 before the run, giving a measurable difference.

   In summary, I see no reason to change the main conclusions in my two papers based on Murray's critiques. As I said in the seminar, however, if a source of impurities is found that I missed, or if a systematic error in the analysis is found, I will withdraw my conclusions. Neither of these has happened yet, however.

   John, again I enjoyed the seminar and the discussion during and after it.
If you have additional comments or questions let me know and I will try to answer them as best I can.

Sincerely,
George

-------------------------
George H. Miley
University of Illinois
Fusion Studies Lab - 100 NEL
103 S. Goodwin Ave.
Urbana, Il 61801 USA
------------------------
Vox: 217-3333772
Fax: 217-3332906
e-mail: g-miley uiuc.edu

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 20 16:42:33 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 16:31:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: CF, I know nothing but...(Arata did) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:29:59 +0000
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At 03:05 AM 7/20/97 +0000, you wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 04:18:21 +0000, Ed Wall wrote:
>[snip]
>>Ed Wall wrote:
>>Mike, I agree with your assessment.  Arata & Zhang's work appears to be of
>>the highest quality with precise anomalous results very hard to dispute.
>>However, unless you know something I don't, they did not claim to produce
>>tritium, although it is indicated.
>>
>>Specifically (p.54 of IE#12), "The existence of 3T will be required that the
>>process is responsible for the generation of 3He as the Rutherford reaction.
>>The proof for the existence of 3T within the 'closed QMS', however, was not
>>obtained in this experiment."
>[snip]

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>Am I mistaken, or would the H + D -> He3 reaction explain the absence
>of T, yet the presence of a large amount of He3?

Ed Wall wrote:
Except that the amount of H annealed from the cathode in the vacuum would presumably be quite low (not mentioned in the abstracts, --->MIKE CARRELL-- or another with the whole article, what about [H]?) .  It would be good to know the relative concentration of H in the electrolyte and the annealing product gas.  I also wish I knew what the Rutherford reaction is.  My guess, it is D + D -> 4He, then 4He + D -> 3He + T

If [H] is high in the cathode, but much lower in the electrolyte, then D + 3He -> 4He + H , with no T would seem to be a good possibility.  

A note on notation.  What I believe is correct (ASCII-wise) is: 3,1H or 3H or T, or even 3T in the abstract is tritium 2,1H or 2H or D is deuterium
1,1H or 1H or H is the dominant form of hydrogen with no neutron.
Numbers following the chemical symbol indicate di- or tri- or whatever molecular form.
Which is why I think the notation in the article, 4He/D2, is confusing.  Is that the ratio of [4He] to [D], that happens to be in the form of D2?
Also, [brackets] are shorthand for moles/liter from basic chemistry.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 20 19:47:02 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:40:04 -0700 From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF, I know nothing but...(Arata did) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 02:39:22 GMT
Organization: Improving
References: <19970720232957.AAA27670 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"3KEXx.0.rG5.3miqp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:29:59 +0000, Ed Wall wrote: [snip]
>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>>Am I mistaken, or would the H + D -> He3 reaction explain the absence
>>of T, yet the presence of a large amount of He3?
>
>Ed Wall wrote:
>Except that the amount of H annealed from the cathode in the vacuum would
>presumably be quite low (not mentioned in the abstracts, --->MIKE CARRELL--
>or another with the whole article, what about [H]?) .  It would be good to
>know the relative concentration of H in the electrolyte and the annealing

Reactions such as D + M -> M' + H (where M = metal nucleus, and M' is same element, with 1 added neutron), may also contribute to the H supply.

>product gas.  I also wish I knew what the Rutherford reaction is.  My guess,
>it is D + D -> 4He, then 4He + D -> 3He + T

I assumed that this was D + D -> 3He + n and/or D + D -> 3T + H.

>
>If [H] is high in the cathode, but much lower in the electrolyte, then D +
>3He -> 4He + H , with no T would seem to be a good possibility.  

?

>
[snip]
>Which is why I think the notation in the article, 4He/D2, is confusing.  Is
>that the ratio of [4He] to [D], that happens to be in the form of D2?

Precisely. 4He and D2 (the molecule) have nearly the same mass, so that when an electron is stripped from either of them, they will both contribute to the same peak in a low resolution mass spec. You need to use a high res. mass spec. to tell them apart.
(Anyone feel free to correct me here).


Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 20 00:31:57 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:19:18 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:00:01 +1000
X-Sender: egel main.murray.net.au
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Geoff Egel <egel main.murray.net.au> Subject: Re: cold fusion and EV info., scientific revolutions Resent-Message-ID: <"kP9vM2.0.h45.rlRqp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 06:56 PM 7/19/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Geoff Egel wrote:
>
>> At 10:40 PM 7/18/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> tried to get to  your site but unable to do so
>> is this the correct address
>> Geoff
>> 
>THis is strange.  Is anyone else having trouble getting it?  
>http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4946
>
>If this doesn't work an alternative way would be to link through the INE 
>web site: http://www.padrak.com/ine
>look for the link to my site from his recent additions file for May.
>
>Could you tell me if you get it?

>this is okay I now can get it  I had a space at the beginning between forward slash and the www.

by the way check out the easily constructed zip antenna at my web site

Geoff

http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel/
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 21 15:55:45 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:48:21 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:46:27 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: SMOT Mk2 Kits and RMOD Mk2 status.
Resent-Message-ID: <"fPGDv.0.zY5.pS-qp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Greg -

  > Seems like gravity is somehow necessary.

*This* is what I've been waiting to hear. That's interesting.

Haven't been able to get any sign of OU on my own SMOT construction attempts, so I'm eagerly awaiting results from those who receive the SMOT kits.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 21 03:50:28 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 03:46:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:45:37 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall@city.ac.uk> X-Sender: remi@exeter
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Missing you already
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Vo thang,

Sorry I wasn't able to respond to your emails, security stop us getting in in the weekend. Due to crime gangs in the area that tend to walk off with our equipment - they're very devious and clever - don't be fooled by a tie and a briefcase. It's the golden goose principle that theives manipulate. 
A few ruin it for everybody.

Anyway, also iesun9 was down (what's new, complete piece of sh.te old technology). Off the record, its the problem with this uni. of mine that it has to attract funds and break the vicious circle of downsizing its heading for. Me, I just do my little bit, don't ask for much from the place and maybe my work (if it works) could increase the profile of the place (there would have to be root and branch reform - kick out the dead wood, if they ever want to use my name explicitly though).

Thanks for all the responses to my rants, too many to return to. It may have struck a chord. To have a brain and think doesn't make you a freak, madman, malcontent etc. despite what those who wish to silence those who think might have the masses believe.

Great humour. Humour humanises? Helps the brain too.

Oh, yeah, Frederdick, how's your ass? Recovered from the hiding? Your ass is mine!

I will unsubscribe for a while (may lurk). Hopefully next time I'm back, I'll have real results.

Remi.



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 21 09:16:12 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:05:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: SMOTs and Gravity
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:03:55 +0000
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To Vortex:

Greg Watson mentioned that there "must be some gravity interaction" that makes the SMOTs work.

If you consider the "relativistic gravity magnetic force" as 0.02583 Ampere-Meters/kilogram as a force and magnetic dipole moment trying to keep each atom and it's electron cloud aligned with the relativistic gravity magnetic force of the Earth; 
(0.02583*5.98E24 Ampere-Meters) the force should be; 1.0E-7* ball weight*0.02583*5.98E24/(6.38E6 meter)^2, (newtons)then each atom-electron-cloud is going to act like a gimbaled gyro or the seats on a "ferris wheel".

If you break the ball weight down to the force on each atom-electron-cloud times 0.02583 Ampere-Meters times the mass (kilograms) for each atom and note that if you take the momentum (mv) of the electron cloud (number of electrons times the Bohr orbit velocity, c/137)times the mass of the electron cloud, you will find that this is equal to the momentum MV of the atom or roughly the Boltzmann  velocity-kinetic energy kT.(1.38E-23*T) which is very close to the kinetic theory velocity of molecules.
Or mv = MV <=> kT.

In other words, the electron cloud gives us the Kinetic Theory and Avogadro's Number, or simply stated, The Tail Wags The Dog!   :-)

With the torque-precession effects involved, combined with the magnetocaloric effects of the ball and magnets it just might work. :-)

Regards,    Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 21 11:27:19 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:17:46 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOTs and Gravity
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> On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
> Greg Watson mentioned that there "must be some gravity interaction"
> that makes the SMOTs work.
> 
> If you consider the "relativistic gravity magnetic force" as 0.02583
> Ampere-Meters/kilogram as a force and magnetic dipole moment trying to
> keep each atom and it's electron cloud aligned with the relativistic 
> gravity magnetic force of the Earth; 
> (0.02583*5.98E24 Ampere-Meters) the force should be;
> 1.0E-7* ball weight*0.02583*5.98E24/(6.38E6 meter)^2, (newtons)then 
> each atom-electron-cloud is going to act like a gimbaled gyro  
> or the seats on a "ferris wheel".
> 
> If you break the ball weight down to the force on each 
> atom-electron-cloud times 0.02583 Ampere-Meters times the mass 
> (kilograms) for each atom and note that if you take the
> momentum (mv) of the electron cloud (number of electrons times the Bohr
> orbit velocity, c/137)times the mass of the electron cloud, you
> will find that this is equal to the momentum MV of the atom or
> roughly the Boltzmann  velocity-kinetic energy kT.(1.38E-23*T)
> which is very close to the kinetic theory velocity of molecules.
> Or mv = MV <=> kT.
> 
> In other words, the electron cloud gives us the Kinetic Theory and 
> Avogadro's Number, or simply stated, The Tail Wags The Dog!   :-)
> 
> With the torque-precession effects involved, combined with the
> magnetocaloric effects of the ball and magnets it just might work. :-)
> 
> Regards,    Frederick
> 
> 
Fred, (way over my head here, but I think I'm following you :)
  
  You've considered 'existing' Down-ward pull of gravity on BALL against N-track? (previous overcomed friction) in the above equation/answer??

Also, (clouds area), is this (see above) ONLY in the MASS of the BALL or are you envisioning/"isolating" the 'Blue-Hole Area' for this??

Trying like 'heck' to understand it too!


se
1 of the last Cowboys in Colorado,'the End of 100 year song' -------------------------------------------------------.edu+ back to basic(s)     Steve Ekwall           POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com    1.303.293.2FAX         wk.1.800.798.1100

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 21 14:12:28 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:31:11 -0700 X-Sender: quinney@inforamp.net
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:27:08 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Special issue of Apeiron: The B(3) Field.
Cc: "C. Roy Keys"<apeiron vif.com>, <Puthoff@aol.com>,
        Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>,
        John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>, <FZNIDARSIC@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"XOtta1.0.U04.DSyqp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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To All:

As many of you are already aware, this Peer-reviewed Journal, Apeiron, normally focuses on Physics and Cosmology. The articles deal with  new and therefore occasionally controversial, alt. theories about cosmological, electromagnetic, QM, and gravitational phenomena etc., and of course, the many corresponding anomalies...The following lines were copied from the Journal 'Apeiron': 
CQ
_______________________________________________

* Critical analysis of standard "big bang" cosmology, special and general relativity and the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics.

*Alternative interpretations of the mathematical formalisms of fundamental physics.

*New physical models to explain - rather than merely predict - experimental and observational phenomena. 

*Speculative and review articles by prominent researchers, letters from readers and debate.
________________________________________________

This special *downloadable* issue is devoted to B(3), but I am sure that almost everyone on this list will find most of the articles from this special issue interesting and very informative. Vortex and Apeiron subscribers seem to have much in common: CQ
_________________________________________________ The Current Issue is (HTML or PDF- Adobe Acrobat Reader) found at <http://www.vif.com/users/apeiron/>

   Volume 4, no. 2-3, April-July. 

Special Issue: The B(3) Field: Beyond Maxwell Guest Editor: Myron W. Evans 

(For further information on B(3), please go to Robert Cathey Research Source B(3) archive. <http://www.europa.com/~rsc/#B3>) 

--Myron W. Evans: Introduction 
--Andrew A. Chubykalo: The Role of "Action-at-a-Distance" in the Electro-Magnetic Field Radiation Produced by an Accelerated Charge 
--José R. Croca: Laboratory-Scale Test of de Broglie's Tired-Photon Mode --Valeri V. Dvoeglazov & Myron W. Evans: Toward an Understanding of Electromagnetic Phenomena 
--Myron W. Evans: Helicity and the Electromagnetic Field --Stanley Jeffers: The Status of the Experimental Evidence for the B(3) Field --Bo Lehnert & Sisir Roy: Extended Electromagnetic Theory, Angular Momentum and the B(3) Field 
--Héctor A. Múnera & Octavio Guzmán: Magnetic Potentials, Longitudinal Currents, and Magnetic Properties of
Vacuum: All Implicit in Maxwell's Equations --Jean-Pierre Vigier: Relativistic Interpretation (with Non-Zero Photon Mass) of the Small Ether Drift Velocity Detected by Michelson, Morley and Miller 
Héctor A. Múnera: An Absolute Space Interpretation (with Non-Zero Photon Mass) of the Non-Null Results of
Michelson-Morley and Similar Experiments: An Extension of Vigier's Proposal --The Ephemeris: Jenner Barretto Bastos Filho: Review of Evans/Vigier et al., The Enigmatic Photon;
--Thomas E. Phipps, Jr.: Why Do Clock Rates Lack Group Properties? 
--M.W. Evans: Rebuttal of M. Y. A. Raja et al --P. Marquardt & G. Galeczki: Free Trade between Mass and Energy? 

  issue (Xu Shaozhi & Xu Xiangqun, Michael J. Strickland, H. R. Drew, G.
Walton, Viv Pope, T. Frank Lee, Laszlo
Szego & Peter F. Ofner, Thomas E. Phipps, Jr., Joseph J. Smulsky, M. W.
Evans) 

APEIRON (ISSN 0843-6061). Address for correspondence, subscriptions, submissions: 
c/o C. Roy Keys, 4405 St-Dominique, Montreal, Quebec H2W 2B2 Canada. 
Email: apeiron vif.com; World Wide Web: redshift.vif.com. 

Copyright © 1997 C. Roy Keys Inc. Dépôt légal 2ième trimestre 1997. Legal deposit-2nd quarter 1997. 

Subscription information: 
Published four times annually (January, April, July and October): $60US /year for institutions and
libraries, $30US /year for individuals. Distributed by FAXON/SMS Canada, EBSCO/CANEBSCO, Readmore, Swets, Blackwell's. Indexed in Physics Abstracts. Online (HTML and PDF) at redshift.vif.com. 
___________________________________________________

Enjoy! 

Colin Quinney, 
Toronto Canada.


  

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 22 00:50:40 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 05:02:27 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Eprint: On the Zero-Point Energy of a Conducting Spherical Shell Resent-Message-ID: <"t6iw-3.0.2s3.DK6rp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Hi,

This is a paper released yesterday. Available from xxx.lanl.gov.

Regards,

Hamdi Ucar



High Energy Physics - Theory, abstract hep-th/9707168

From: Giampiero.Esposito na.infn.it

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:27:13 +0200

On the Zero-Point Energy of a Conducting Spherical Shell

Authors: Giampiero Esposito, Alexander Yu. Kamenshchik, Klaus Kirsten

Comments: 11 pages, Revtex Report-no: DSF preprint 97/31

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 21 19:14:41 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Intended-For: knuke@aa.net
Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:27:32 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:27:26 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Blacklight power
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What university did this work:

REPORT ON CALORIMETRIC INVESTIGATIONS OF GAS-PHASE CATALYZED HYDRINO FORMATION

for Blacklight power?  Has anyone succeeded in contacting the investigators there?

Thanks

Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 21 19:41:26 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:37:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: CF, I know nothing but...(Arata did) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 02:35:20 +0000
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Ed Wall wrote:
>>
>>If [H] is high in the cathode, but much lower in the electrolyte, then D +
>>3He -> 4He + H , with no T would seem to be a good possibility.  
>
Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>?
>
Ed Wall:
I am driving at determing the origin of any H in the cathode.  If [H] in the cathode is high and low in the electrolyte, the cathode H could not have originated from electrolyte H, make sense?  If my understanding from the Arata & Zhang abstract is correct, little or no T is found.  I was imagining how we might have H and no T.
>>
>[snip]
>>Which is why I think the notation in the article, 4He/D2, is confusing.  Is
>>that the ratio of [4He] to [D], that happens to be in the form of D2?
>
Robin:
>Precisely. 4He and D2 (the molecule) have nearly the same mass, so
>that when an electron is stripped from either of them, they will both
>contribute to the same peak in a low resolution mass spec. You need to
>use a high res. mass spec. to tell them apart.
>(Anyone feel free to correct me here).
>
Ed:
IE#9, p. 53, "These data show a repeated double peak structure during scans across the mass-3 position.  This behavior was observed after 1.1 hours of getter pump action.  The double peaks are due to HD+ and 3He+ ions, both of which are nominally mass-3.  The data in the bottom left corner is corresponding mass-4 data for the same time period.  The data show only the 4He+ peak." (Chubb)

Your point is well taken.  If the spectrometer can differentiate between nominally mass-3 arrangements of nucleons, then wouldn't it also differentiate between nominally mass-4, 4He and D2 ?  I also would appreciate some clairification from someone with the whole article or knowledge of spectrometry.

The article specifies a quadrupole mass spectrometer being used in both abstracts.  Dr. Arata's status in Japan and the importance of new energy in their society would presumably mean that he would have access to top quality equipment.  

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 21 21:53:05 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:44:41 -0700
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net> Reply-To: rmforall@earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, 72240.1256@compuserve.com,
        76570.2270 compuserve.com, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov,
        bssimon helix.ucsd.edu, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu,
        wireless rmii.com, barry@math.ucla.edu,
        mizuno athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@onramp.net, design73@aol.com,
        blue pilot.msu.edu, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net,
        dennis wazoo.com, ine@padrak.com, little@eden.com,
        peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, britz@kemi.aau.dk,
        mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bockris@chemvx.chem.tamu.edu,
        ghlin greenoil.chem.tamu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch,
        kennel nhelab.iae.or.jp, david@iceland.it.earthlink.net, k@suba.com,
        shellied sage.dri.edu, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil,
        rmills blacklightpower.com, wrgood@earthlink.net,
        yekim physics.perdue.edu, jaeger@eneco-usa.com,
        nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu, tchubb@aol.com,
        perkins3 llnl.gov, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com Subject: Eighth Miley Critique: Summary of First and Fifth Resent-Message-ID: <"B4cdE1.0.oR5.Lf3rp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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B.S. in history and physics, M.I.T., 1964, M.A. in psychology, Boston U.
Graduate School, 1967.  My life has been devoted to a private exploration of expanded states of consciousness.  For the past eight years, I have supported myself as a home hospice worker.  Maintaining a keen interest in science, I have perused every issue of Scientific American, Science, Physics Today, and Speptical Inquirer.  I've followed the cold fusion field closely for eight years, subscribed to Vortex-L discussion group since January, 1996, and attended the September Low Energy Nuclear Reactions Conference.  Some critical posts on Vortex-L led me to examine Miley's first two Preprints carefully.  I found plenty of nits to pick, got on my high horse, and sent a long, detailed, rude post to Vortex-L early in December.  Being a little tenacious at times, I've written a total of seven Miley Critiques.  This one I will call for convenience, the Eighth Critique.  Responding to Miley's post of July 20, I have given up some skeptical claims, and added more analysis of the data.


I will take the space here to reiterate my after/before ratios in my First Miley Critique,  [posted Dec 7, 1996, on George H. Miley, "Nuclear Transmutations in Thin-Film Nickel Coatings Undergoing Electrolysis," "Infinite Energy" magazine, # 9, July-August, 1996] calculated from his own data in Table 3 in his First Preprint, based on NAA analysis, given accuracy by him of +- 2 to 4 % in his July 20 post:

[I have arranged the data by element, in order, and calculated the ratio, after/before.  When helpful, I added natural abundance, the estimated SIMS count from a double-scale zerox of Fig. 3b., and possible same-mass interferences.  Fig. 3b is labeled, "Typical low resolution SIMS scan after the run (average of microspheres in 3 layers in the cell).] 

I have added for the less common isotopes a second line with three abundance ratios, compared to the most common isotope: official, before, and after, along with the percentage change from official. 

             #atoms per microsphere        ratio, after/before
             before              after

23-V50       3.54E10             70.1E10   19.8      23-Cr50?

399r         407r = + 2 %        408r = + 2 %  

23-V51       1.44E13             28.6E13   19.9 


24-Cr50      omitted, 4.4%, SIMS=~500, 23-V50?

24-Cr52      5.63E14             1070E14   190.

24-Cr53      6.27E13             1360E13   217.

8.82r        8.98r = + 2 %       7.87r = - 11 % 

24-Cr54      1.53E13              255E15   167.

35.4r        36.8r = + 4 %        42.0r = + 20 %


26-Fe54      2.82E15             17.8E15     6.31

15.2r        15.2r = 0 %         15.2r = 0 %

26-Fe56      4.29E16             27.0E16     6.29

26-Fe57      1.01E15             14.1E15    14.0

42.5r        42.5r = 0 %         19.2r = - 55 %

26-Fe58      omitted, 0.28 %, SIMS=~1000, 28-Ni58?


27-Co59      1.23E14             19.9E14    16.2   100%


29-Cu63      3.57E15              116E15    32.5

29-Cu65      1.54E15             49.7E15    32.3

2.24r        2.30r = + 2.6 %     2.33r = 4.2 % 


30-Zn64      1.42E15             16.7E15    11.8    28-Ni64?

30-Zn66      7.82E14             92.2E14    11.8

1.74r        1.82r = + 6.2 %     1.81r = + 4.1 %

30-Zn67      1.14E14             21.6E14    19.0  4.1%, SIMS=~10

11.9r        12.5r = + 7.4 %     7.73r = - 35 %

30-Zn68      5.08E14              130E14    25.6  18.8%, SIMS=~11

2.64r        2.80r = + 5.9 %      1.29r = -51 %

30-Zn70      1.64E13              124E13    75.6  0.6%, SIMS=~1, 32-Ge70?

81r          86.6r = +6.9 %       13.5r = - 83 %


47-Ag107     7.32E15              76.1E15   10.4

47-Ag109     6.68E15              61.4E15    9.2

1.07r        1.10r = +3 %         1.24r = + 17 %


Of these 7 NAA elements, the V pair is typical, with after/before ratios astonishingly close at 19.8 and 19.9, giving absolutely no hint of changes in isotopic abundances, but suggesting strongly a 20-fold transfer of metal from one measured set of ten beads to another within the cell. This is obviously the same for Cu, while there is provocative data for Cr, Ag, and the specific isotopes: Fe57, Zn67, Zn68, and Zn70, considering the +- 2 to 4  % precision of NAA, given by Miley in his July 20 post.  The most out-of-line isotope is 30-Zn70, with ratio 75.6, has only 0.6 % natural abundance, making its measurement more susceptible to dust contamination, and, shall we say, random glitches, as well possible interferences from 32-Ge70. Also, the SIMS count for 30-Zn-70 in Fig. 3b is about 1.  The remarkably close match of some of the isotope pairs for V, Fe, Cu, Zn, and Ag is surprising and gratifying, and gives us more faith in the NAA measurements.

The before isotopic ratio changes, compared to official values, range from 0 to + 7.4 %, largely confirming Miley's estimates in his post of July 20.  The after ratios, compared to official values, range from 0 to + 20 to - 83 %.  This data does not suggest isotopic shifts for V and Cu, but provides grounds for spirited debate about Cr, Fe, Zn, and Ag.

Table 4a in First Preprint shows that the cells contain l91 micrograms V in the two Ti electrodes: if 1 % somehow dissolved out, then that would roughly equal the 1.52 micrograms of V that Miley measured as added to the beads.  At any rate, there seems to be no evidence of isotope shift for V.  

If we had the specific before and after data for the other five runs, then more of this simple analysis could be done.

Zn-68, with an estimated SIMS count of ~11,  was listed as enhanced 15.84 % in First Preprint.  

Here is Miley's data from Table 3 for three isotopes of Si, a non-NAA element, so the data is from SIMS only:

        Atoms per microsphere
                                     
Mass No. Fresh     Reacted   After/Before   SIMS counts, from Fig. 3b

28       8.14E+16  3.02E+17  3.7                ~300 29       0         2.04E+16  ?                  ~ 30 30       0         1.02E+16  ?                  ~ 10

Again, the poverty of raw data precludes any claims about isotopic shifts, especially to four-digit accuracy!  Miley's Table 3 claims Si 30 has a +14.66 % shift, based on a raw data SIMS count of about 10.  Presumably, Fig. 3b presents Miley's best raw data-- why else would he publish it?  By the way, why is the after data for Si 29 twice that for Si 30 ?
                     
My first five Miley Critiques present plenty of data from Miley's first two Preprints that show massive transfer of Ni from some beads to other beads within the thousand beads in a cell.  So, since much of the Ni is dissolved from some beads and redeposited on other beads, any trace elements will be liberated and redeposited, perhaps as concentrated spots, which would then be likely to be noticed and measured by the micron-scale SIMS scans on the few spots on the about 10 or so beads selected for study out of the thousand in a cell.  Only a thorough, detailed, exact, expensive inventory of cell contents and products, including gunk, gases, and grit, could determine if transmutation or transfer is the model to be applied to the data.

Since SIMS on before beads would be on smooth, unremarkable locations of pure metal, while SIMS on after beads would presumably be on interesting, noticable specific reaction sites, like the pits, bubbles, and volcanos imaged by Mizuno, Ohmori, and Dash, then it is conceivable that 18-Kev oxygen ion bombardment on such concentrations of impurities or products, vaporizing them, could produce even more nuclear transmutations, if they are already possible under the very mild conditions of electrolysis.
        
I will provide by email or mail copies of my Critiques.

Rich Murray
Room For All
1943 Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
rmforall earthlink.net
505-986-9103

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 22 06:33:27 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:27:10 -0700 From: David72569@aol.com
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:26:29 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Vorticity 
Resent-Message-ID: <"gPtZ8.0.UM4.eKBrp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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I'm interested in controlling and possibly maximizing the vorticity generated by the wings of my R/C aircraft.

Can anyone tell me if there are any good sources of information in the subject areas of vortex structure, vortical manipulation.  Perhaps a text on general vorticity?

Any help would be appreciated,
DB

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 22 06:44:42 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:37:20 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:37:01 -0500
From: "Ronald R. Stiffler" <stiffler compassnet.com> Reply-To: stiffler@compassnet.com
Organization: Advanced Technology Group To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Eprint: On the Zero-Point Energy of a Conducting Spherical Shell References: <33D406A3.812DE75D verisoft.com.tr> Resent-Message-ID: <"fVGPK2.0.di4.EUBrp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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> This is a paper released yesterday. Available from xxx.lanl.gov.
>
>
> High Energy Physics - Theory, abstract hep-th/9707168
>
> From: Giampiero.Esposito na.infn.it
>
> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:27:13 +0200
>
> On the Zero-Point Energy of a Conducting Spherical Shell
>
> Authors: Giampiero Esposito, Alexander Yu. Kamenshchik, Klaus Kirsten
>
> Comments: 11 pages, Revtex Report-no: DSF preprint 97/31

Stupid me. What is eprint ? is it a list server ?

I went to this site and had no luck in finding, help to locate.

Will get back soon on your email. Don't rewind until I have finished looking over what you said. If your harmonic is wrong side ow wave, this is coil phase, not size.


--
To understand is to begin, to dream is to complete.


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 22 11:23:10 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:14:46 -0700 From: VCockeram@aol.com
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:14:10 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Blacklight power
Resent-Message-ID: <"u-EAO.0.hV4.LYFrp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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In a message dated 97-07-21 21:32:13 EDT, you write:

<< 
 What university did this work:
 
 REPORT ON CALORIMETRIC INVESTIGATIONS OF GAS-PHASE CATALYZED HYDRINO FORMATION
 
 for Blacklight power?  Has anyone succeeded in contacting the investigators  there? >>

Scott,

You need to go into the Blacklight Power website at:  http://www.blacklightpower.com

You will need the Adobe Acrobat reader (tm) to view the files which are in .PDF format.
The reader is a free download from  http://www.adobe.com 

Downside:  it's a 4.5 meg download....  upside:  it works really slick for displaying the graphs and scientific notation in the Blacklight Power web files.

There is a direct link to the Adobe website in the Blacklight Power web pages.

There is an enormous amount of information at the BLP site and I urge you or anyone interested to check it out.

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas Nevada

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 22 12:16:30 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:50:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "J Manning" <jmanning@axionet.com> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Vorticity 
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:33:41 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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297-page "Vortex Flow in Nature and Technology", by Hans J. Lugt of David W. Taylor Naval Ship Research and Development Center,  Bethesda, Maryland is a Wiley-Interscience Publication of John Wiley & Sons publishing co.(NY etc)
German edition was apparently 1978;  English edition 1983.  At that time Hans Lugt was based in Potomac, Maryland.

good luck in getting a copy
Jeane Manning

----------
> From: David72569 aol.com
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Vorticity 
> Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 6:26 AM
> 
> I'm interested in controlling and possibly maximizing the vorticity generated
> by the wings of my R/C aircraft.
> 
> Can anyone tell me if there are any good sources of information in the
> subject areas of vortex structure, vortical manipulation.  Perhaps a text on
> general vorticity?
> 
> Any help would be appreciated,
> DB
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 22 12:58:19 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:28:33 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:31:26 -0500
From: "Patrick V. Reavis" <preavis ro.com> Organization: NASA Student Volunteer
To: vortex-l <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Copper...
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Hello Vortexians!
I recently read a posting about a source for isotopically pure copper.
Does anyone have the info?
Thanks in advance!
Patrick Reavis
    /\
   /G \
  /____\



<HTML>
Hello Vortexians!
<BR>I recently read a posting about a source for isotopically pure copper.
Does anyone have the info?
<BR>Thanks in advance!
<BR>Patrick Reavis
<BR><TT>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; /\</TT>
<BR><TT>&nbsp;&nbsp; /G \</TT>
<BR><TT>&nbsp; /____\</TT>
<BR><TT></TT>&nbsp;
<BR><TT></TT>&nbsp;
<BR><TT></TT>&nbsp;</HTML>
X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 22 15:26:38 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:16:14 -0700 X-Sender: johmann@atlantic.net
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:03:35 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Kurt Johmann <johmann atlantic.net> Subject: Followup on the Atlantis-under-Antartica Idea Resent-Message-ID: <"IP7L63.0.5B2.i4Jrp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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There is a very interesting presentation that was given by Rand Flem-Ath at the "Return to the Source Symposium" at the University of Delaware in September 1996. This presentation, including many pictures, is at:

   http://www.netfeed.com/pstevens/delaware1.htm

Overall, this material -- including its many pictures that clearly show just where the pre-shift poles, both north and south, were then, and where these poles are today -- makes a very good case, IMO, that this pole-shift explains a great deal and perhaps actually did happen.

As a side note -- since I had previously questioned how do we know how reliable are claims that the ice sheets on Antartica are several million years old -- and referring to the maps presented by Flem-Ath: at least a part of Antartica in the pre-shift days was already in the Antartic Circle, so this would mean that both claims -- the pole-shift claim and the old-ice-sheet claim -- can be true.

The site's "guestbook" is also interesting, and is at:

   http://www.netfeed.com/pstevens/guestbook2.htm

This guestbook includes some comments by Rand Flem-Ath, including some material as to the availability of "When the Sky Fell," including a forthcoming publication in America by St. Martins Press.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 22 17:06:12 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:47:42 -0600 (MDT) From: "John R. Tooker" <jrtooker@freenet.calgary.ab.ca> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Vorticity 
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
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On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 David72569 aol.com wrote:

> 
> I'm interested in controlling and possibly maximizing the vorticity generated
> by the wings of my R/C aircraft.
> 
> Can anyone tell me if there are any good sources of information in the
> subject areas of vortex structure, vortical manipulation.  Perhaps a text on
> general vorticity?
You might want to look up the Bernoulli effect. I've seen that there are rotating wing designs employing this. Rex Research in jean. Nevada, carries some good infolios regarding this. Hope this helps some.
Regards,
John

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 22 23:40:05 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:28:41 -0700 From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF, I know nothing but...(Arata did) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 06:27:52 GMT
Organization: Improving
References: <19970722023519.AAA488 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"CXtbb.0.VU7.OIQrp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 02:35:20 +0000, Ed Wall wrote:

>Ed Wall:
>I am driving at determing the origin of any H in the cathode.  If [H] in the
>cathode is high and low in the electrolyte, the cathode H could not have
>originated from electrolyte H, make sense?  If my understanding from the
>Arata & Zhang abstract is correct, little or no T is found.  I was imagining
>how we might have H and no T.

I can think of three possibilities:
1) The Pd may 'hold' H better than D, so that a low level of H in the electrolyte is naturally raised in the cathode. Of course, if the preference is actually the other way around, then this argument goes out the window.
2) Transmutation reactions that produce little excess energy may 'dispose' of the excess from the fission of heavier nuclei, by producing H as a byproduct of light nuclei fission.
3) Alternatively such reactions may also produce 3He directly as a byproduct (don't ask why they don't also produce T :).
[snip]
>Ed:
>IE#9, p. 53, "These data show a repeated double peak structure during scans
>across the mass-3 position.  This behavior was observed after 1.1 hours of
>getter pump action.  The double peaks are due to HD+ and 3He+ ions, both of
>which are nominally mass-3.  The data in the bottom left corner is
>corresponding mass-4 data for the same time period.  The data show only the
>4He+ peak." (Chubb)
>
>Your point is well taken.  If the spectrometer can differentiate between
>nominally mass-3 arrangements of nucleons, then wouldn't it also
>differentiate between nominally mass-4, 4He and D2 ?  I also would
>appreciate some clairification from someone with the whole article or
>knowledge of spectrometry.

Yes it would, and did. That is precisely why they are able to report the production of 4He. Because they are able to differentiate between 4He and D2, hence there is no possibility that their results are being 'contaminated' or confused by D2. They mention it only to show this point.

>
>The article specifies a quadrupole mass spectrometer being used in both
>abstracts.  Dr. Arata's status in Japan and the importance of new energy in
>their society would presumably mean that he would have access to top quality
>equipment.  
>
Yes, see above.
Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 23 08:36:46 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:31:37 -0700 Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:23:50 -0500
References: <1.5.4.32.19970722210335.006bc100 atlantic.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Jul 22,  5:11pm, Kurt Johmann wrote:
> There is a very interesting presentation that was given by Rand Flem-Ath
> at the "Return to the Source Symposium" at the University of Delaware in
> September 1996. This presentation, including many pictures, is at:
>
>    http://www.netfeed.com/pstevens/delaware1.htm

Thanks Kurt.  Good find.  Very interesting and informative.


-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 23 10:22:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:14:52 -0700 From: Tstolper@aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:14:11 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Eighth Miley Critique
Resent-Message-ID: <"T3Twb2.0.Me4.BmZrp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Rich,

You said in the introductory paragraph of your Eighth Miley Critiqe, posted on July 22:

"Responding to Miley's post of July 20, I have given up some skeptical claims, and added more analysis of the data."

It's a rare event when a skeptic gives up any claims.  That helps to narrow the focus of the debate, another rare event in this field.  Which skeptical claims were you giving up?

Tom Stolper

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 23 21:56:59 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:48:13 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:55:58 -0700
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net> Reply-To: rmforall@earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, tstolper@aol.com Subject: Re: Eighth Miley Critique
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July 23, 1997

Hi Tom,

Well, I retreated from my claim that Miley had published no data to support claims of transmutations to a grudging admission that for some elements and isotopes, the question was still arguable.  The only real settlement will be whether in the course of the next few months, there are substantial and successful replications by other labs with these simple experiments-- for instance, Scott Little at EarthTech in Austin, TX, who has been testing a CETI kit since December.

Rich Murray

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 24 07:25:21 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:16:46 -0700 Reply-To: <@snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Murray and Miley
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:19:37 -0400
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Miley commented on Murray's critiques as follows: ------------
Murray has done a dedicated job of pouring through my two conference papers and has raised some good points-- e.g. as he states, more needs to be done to understand product distributions in the bead bed. However the main thrust
of his critiques,  that the +- 15% uncertainly of the NAA invalidates the isotope ratios, is simply an error in his understanding of what we did. 
------------
This is a very gentlemany response, in sharp contrast to the style of Murray's critiques. Murray has responded with : ------------
Well, I retreated from my claim that Miley had published no data to support claims of transmutations to a grudging admission that for some elements and isotopes, the question was still arguable. 
------------
I hope that Murray will forthwith transmit his new understanding to Morrison and the others with whom he shared his misunderstanding of Miley's work. 

Mike Carrell

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 24 13:35:24 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:22:24 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:22:01 -0400 (EDT) From: lewis edward <lewis3@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: EVs and transmutation
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> 
> 
> Edward Lewis
> P.O. Box 13050
> Chicago, IL 60613
> 
> 
>         If any one is interested in the topic of cold fusion or in other
> new science topics, or if you are interested in scientific revolutions or
> in technological revolutions, please check out my web site at
> www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4946.
> 
>         There you'll find some of the latest research on what is called
> cold fusion, or novel elemental production, and plasmoid research, what
> Ken Shoulders calls EVs.  I'm doing the latest research.  You'll also find
> good links to link to lots of different topics.
> 
>         I may have found proof of the production of micrometer sized
> plasmoids in electrolysis cells, confirming Matsumoto's work during this
> decade.  There are lots of pictures of markings like plasmoid markings on
> various parts of Ceti electrolysis cells in Prof. George Miley's lab.
> This is the first confirmation of plasmoid production in electrolysis
> cells.  The significance of this may be that various types of devices may
> now be relatable as plasmoid devices.  New atomic theory is required.
> Ceti does not support or agree with my ideas about the cells though.
> 
>         I first proposed new atomic theory based on Matsumoto's and K.
> Shoulders work(1).  I identified the phenomena that Matsumoto was
> producing as ball lightning marks, and first identified the phenomena of
> ball lightning and of plasmoids based on experimental evidence(1).  As far
> as I know I was the first to propose that the tiny plasmoids have
> superconducting aspects(1), and propose hypotheses about high temp.
> superconductivity(1,2).  I proposed that the emission of plasmoids is
> associated with transmutation, and that plasmoids are associated with
> transmutation, based on Matsumoto's heavy element transformation article
> in Fusion Technology in 1992.  Matsumoto has priority in the experimental
> investigation of this area, and in my opinion, in the experimental
> investigation of plasmoids in relation to transmutation and cold fusion.
> I've introduced a lot of other new theory as well that is also being
> confirmed.  I predicted that people would find electrical output as both
> plasmoids and plasmoid waves.  Matsumoto had tried to publish his
> observation of new kinds of electrical current(3).  I predicted that
> people would find geophysical phenomena like earthquakes and volcanoes in
> their devices, and that tiny plasmoids would be emitted by the earth
> during earthquakes, which is something that Matsumoto has recently found
> by placing nuclear emulsions in sites of earthquakes in Japan(4).  He
> finds the same kinds of marks as he did via electrolysis and discharge,
> though some of the marks are a little different and bigger. I identified
> tornadoes and ball lightning, and shown that the some phenomena of
> elemental production and energy production going on in electrolysis cells
> and plasmoid devices also goes on in ball lightning and tornadoes.  Ball
> lightning sometimes seems to have very much higher energies then would be
> predicted by any chemical means.  There is evidence of elemental
> transformation and also of matter disappearance in and around ball
> lightning, suggesting that atoms are converting to new atoms, light and
> electricity, and other kinds of plasmoids.
> 
>         Picture #2 in the first article(5) on the web site is really
> important because it shows multiple ring marks on the Lexan casing of a
> cell that contained nickle on plastic microspheres.  It is this cell that
> G. Miley has authored extensive articles about.  These ring markings are
> similar to those shown by Matsumoto.
> 
>         Ron Kovac's production of an element 5 if it is valid is imp.
> work.  Along with the hydrino production, if it is valid, new atomic
> theory is required.  All the proved predictions of the theory is evidence
> that the theory is valid.  There has been a lot of research on plasmoids
> during the last 3 decades that people may not be familiar with, including
> speculations about superconductivity, mathematical modeling, astrophysical
> medeling, and research on fusion devices and weapons.  I also predicted 
> beams and jets from the center of galaxies and rapid vortex before these 
> were observationally found by use of the Hubble telescope, as well as odd 
> ball lightning shapes for stars. 
> 
>         This scientific revolution currently going on is important. I
> predicted this before it became apparent in 1989 by my theory of
> scientific revolutions and of Kondratiev depressions.  I have an article
> about this on http://www.padrak.com/ine/ELEWIS6.html
> 
> 
>       If anyone has questions please contact me.
> 
>  (1)E. Lewis, "A Description of Phenomena According to My Theory and
> Experiments to Test My Theory," submitted to Fusion Technology, Dec. 1992.
>  (2)E. Lewis, "Considerations about Plasmoid Phenomena and
> Superconductivity Phenomena," submitted to Fusion Facts, June 1996, and
> "Considerations about Plasmoid Phenomena, Superconductivity Phenomena,
> and Anomalous Radiation," submitted to Cold Fusion, summer 1996.
>  (3)T. Matsumoto, "Discovery of a New Kind of Electrical Current,"
> presentation submitted to the ICCF-6, Toya, 1996, but rejected.
>  (4)T. Matsumoto, "Extraordinary Traces on Nuclear Emulsions Obtained
> During the Matsumae Earthquakes in 1996," distributed at the ICCF-6,
> Toya, Japan, Oct. 13-17, 1996.
>  (5)E. Lewis, "Photographs of Some Components of an Electrolysis Cell,"
> March, 1997.
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 20:02:23 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:58:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:08:43 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"m6ZNJ3.0.xd4.FVMsp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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John -

   >  A report to be published Friday in the journal
   >  Science said...

Wow!

I guess the notion of a full crustal shift on this planet isn't so fringe anymore. The timescale for the thing is still an issue, but that's details.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 01:27:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:11:59 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: H recombination
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:10:29 GMT
Organization: Improving
Resent-Message-ID: <"4qJ3S2.0.tS4.D_5sp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Does anyone have a rough formula for the percentage of recombination of H to H2 in an electrolytic cell wherein H is formed, as a function of time?
I.e. How much H (nascent) is left n seconds after turning off the power (at room temp)?
How much does this change if the electrode is a hydrogen absorbing metal?


Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 01:39:01 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:33:10 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:34:58 -0700
From: Eric Hammond <ehammond pacbell.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Blacklight power
References: <199707220127.UAA25249 natasha.eden.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"Vq_iW2.0.a27.6J6sp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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What does Hal think of the theory presented in the book that Blacklight publishes? They derive the H atom in a slightly different way then I remember.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 01:41:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:38:53 -0700
From: Eric Hammond <ehammond pacbell.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Blacklight power
References: <199707220127.UAA25249 natasha.eden.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"wbGoj1.0.Jz4.lN6sp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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I have been looking at the book Blacklight Power sends out . They seem to use a electron with a non point like structure in their derivation

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 05:17:35 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 05:06:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: O.U. Lemon?
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:04:12 +0000
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To Vortex:

Some time back Scott was trying to figure what the "Secret Ingredient" might be in the Yusmar vortex apparatus.

I think lemon juice which is rich in citric acid; H2COOH-HCOOH-H2COOH (a tricarboxylic acid) might do.  :-)

In light or heavy water the three carboxylic groups (COOH)can release their protons (or deuterons)which can then form a neutral entity when combined with a negative "Light Lepton" which will also release about 256 Kev in the process.

The vortex microcavitation should cause production of photons with energies up to a few ev(most likely in the 1.5 ev or less infrared range which still implies local temperatures approaching the temperature on the surface of the Sun). This should produce the "Light Lepton" +/- pair.

IF this doesn't pan out, Ship some to Greg Watson as a "home remedy" for his "vapours".   :-)

Regards,   Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 05:33:18 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 05:26:53 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:26:47 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little <little@eden.com>
Subject: Re: H recombination
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At 08:10 AM 7/25/97 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Does anyone have a rough formula for the percentage of recombination
>of H to H2 in an electrolytic cell...

I expect that the concentration of nascent H anywhere in the cell except the cathode surface is almost zero all the time.  When an H+ ion turns into an H atom by contacting the cathode and collecting an electron I believe it either sticks there until another H forms next to it and they join to make an H2 molecule or it enters the lattice of the cathode.  Similarly when the H atoms are coming out of the lattice after the current has been turned off, I think they probably stick on the surface until joined by another H atom to make an H2 molecule which then leaves the surface.

If this is not the case, I'd really like to hear the real story AND find a reference that discusses this issue.

Thanks

Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 06:20:28 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:11:55 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:04:13 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"FsA3P2.0.Gx6.POAsp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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NEWSpot Morning Edition   7/25/97
11:41 AM ET 07/24/97
(Release at 4 p.m. EDT July 24)
By Michael Miller

            PASADENA, Calif. (Reuter) - A 90-degree shift of the Earth's early continents -- in which the North and South Poles wound up at the equator -- may have played a major role in the evolutionary ``big bang'' that speeded up the development of life, scientists said.
            A report to be published Friday in the journal Science said the ``big bang,'' a sudden spurt in the evolutionary process, began about 530 million years ago and proceeded at a rate 20 times faster than anything that has happened since.
            What caused that spurt has long been a mystery perplexing scientists; now experts at the California Institute of Technology say they may have part of the answer.
            Caltech geologists Joseph Kirschvink and David Evans and Robert Ripperdan of the Oak Ridge National Laboratories in Tennessee said the relatively sudden diversification of life forms took place at the same time as Earth's then-super continents took a 90-degree turn, shifting the polar masses to the equator and putting equatorial points at the poles.
            Both events occurred during the so-called Cambrian period when a major reorganization of the Earth's crust took place.
            They said in Science that all the data ``indicate that rapid continental drift occurred during the same time interval as the Cambrian evolutionary diversification and, therefore, the two events may be related.''
            Kirschvink said, ``Life diversified like crazy about a half a billion years ago, and about 15 million years later life's diversity had stabilized at much higher levels. What actually happened is one of the outstanding mysteries of the biosphere.''
            He added that the geophysical evidence collected from rocks deposited before, during and after the evolutionary speedup, ''demonstrate that all of the major continents experienced a burst of motion during the same interval of time.''
            Evans told Reuters the study indicated that in order to change their positions so radically, the super continents -- which broke up about 150 million years ago to form today's continents -- would have traveled several feet per year over a 10 million to 15 million year period.
            The phenomenon is known as ``true polar wander,'' in which the entire solid part of the planet moves together. Typical continental migration rates today, which are caused by heat convection in the Earth's crust, are only a few inches a year, Evans said.
            Kirschvink said the climatic changes, in which life forms existing in cold temperatures were thrust into warmer regions, and vice versa, forced their diversification as they adapted to their new environments.
            It also produced a survival of the fittest pattern of evolution in which certain groups died off and others became stronger through survival.
            Of particular significance to the scientists was the once super continent of Gondwanaland, probably made up of what is now Australia, Antarctica, India, Africa, South America and perhaps parts of East Asia.
            Studies of rocks found in Australia and dating back to the Cambrian period ``demonstrate that Australia rotated counter- clockwise during this time. Other parts of the Gondwanaland super continent must have been involved in this ... rotation,'' the report in Science said.
            In fact, the scientists say, ``We speculate that the entire lithosphere (the solid outerpart of the Earth) may have been involved in this rotation.''

-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 06:31:34 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:26:56 -0700 From: Tstolper@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:26:21 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Eighth Miley Critique
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Rich,

Which isotopes and elements among the ones Miley has claimed do you consider still arguable?

The technologies of the various transmutation analyses are beyond me, but I'd still like to know what transmutations you consider still arguable.

Tom Stolper

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 07:14:15 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: <@snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:55:33 -0400
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Interesting that mainstream scientists can contemplate a whole-crust shift without understanding what could produce it. This is the core of Hapgood's book "The Path of the Poles" and the key to the shift of Antartica-Atlantis to its present position at the south pole. See "Fingerprints of the Gods" and "When the Sky Fell".

Mike Carrell

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 07:17:04 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:03:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: eachus@spectre.mitre.org
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:04:28 -0400
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org> Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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    Hmmm...  The evidence for a giant comet/meteor impact at the end of the Pre-Cambrian seems well established.  It could have imparted additional angular momentum to the crust which caused the shift, but probably what happened is more that it caused the surface to break (relatively) free of the aethenosphere and slide into an alignment which put the most mass on the equator.  (A giant impact can punch through the crust and--if at sea would put a lot of lubricant into the Moho.)  I have been wondering about the apparent pole wandering at the end of the last Ice Age and just noticed that there is a fairly benign explanation of why...  When the Atlantic flooded into the Mediterranian basin, this would have shifted the distribution of mass on the surface fairly radically, as would the melting of the ice sheet.  The distribution of moments of inertia seems opposite to the observed sliding, but the actual physical displacement does not.
(Think of taking the ice sheet from eastern North America, melting it, and stuffing it into the Med.)  If the crust slides easily   Newton takes over...


>NEWSpot Morning Edition   7/25/97
>11:41 AM ET 07/24/97
>(Release at 4 p.m. EDT July 24)
>By Michael Miller
>
>            PASADENA, Calif. (Reuter) - A 90-degree shift of the Earth's
>early continents -- in which the North and South Poles wound up
>at the equator -- may have played a major role in the
>evolutionary ``big bang'' that speeded up the development of
>life, scientists said.
>            A report to be published Friday in the journal Science said
>the ``big bang,'' a sudden spurt in the evolutionary process,
>began about 530 million years ago and proceeded at a rate 20
>times faster than anything that has happened since.
>            What caused that spurt has long been a mystery perplexing
>scientists; now experts at the California Institute of
>Technology say they may have part of the answer.
>            Caltech geologists Joseph Kirschvink and David Evans and
>Robert Ripperdan of the Oak Ridge National Laboratories in
>Tennessee said the relatively sudden diversification of life
>forms took place at the same time as Earth's then-super
>continents took a 90-degree turn, shifting the polar masses to
>the equator and putting equatorial points at the poles.
>            Both events occurred during the so-called Cambrian period
>when a major reorganization of the Earth's crust took place.
>            They said in Science that all the data ``indicate that rapid
>continental drift occurred during the same time interval as the
>Cambrian evolutionary diversification and, therefore, the two
>events may be related.''
>            Kirschvink said, ``Life diversified like crazy about a half
>a billion years ago, and about 15 million years later life's
>diversity had stabilized at much higher levels. What actually
>happened is one of the outstanding mysteries of the biosphere.''
>            He added that the geophysical evidence collected from rocks
>deposited before, during and after the evolutionary speedup,
>''demonstrate that all of the major continents experienced a
>burst of motion during the same interval of time.''
>            Evans told Reuters the study indicated that in order to
>change their positions so radically, the super continents --
>which broke up about 150 million years ago to form today's
>continents -- would have traveled several feet per year over a
>10 million to 15 million year period.
>            The phenomenon is known as ``true polar wander,'' in which
>the entire solid part of the planet moves together. Typical
>continental migration rates today, which are caused by heat
>convection in the Earth's crust, are only a few inches a year,
>Evans said.
>            Kirschvink said the climatic changes, in which life forms
>existing in cold temperatures were thrust into warmer regions,
>and vice versa, forced their diversification as they adapted to
>their new environments.
>            It also produced a survival of the fittest pattern of
>evolution in which certain groups died off and others became
>stronger through survival.
>            Of particular significance to the scientists was the once
>super continent of Gondwanaland, probably made up of what is now
>Australia, Antarctica, India, Africa, South America and perhaps
>parts of East Asia.
>            Studies of rocks found in Australia and dating back to the
>Cambrian period ``demonstrate that Australia rotated counter-
>clockwise during this time. Other parts of the Gondwanaland
>super continent must have been involved in this ... rotation,''
>the report in Science said.
>            In fact, the scientists say, ``We speculate that the entire
>lithosphere (the solid outerpart of the Earth) may have been
>involved in this rotation.''
>
>-- 
>John E. Steck 
>Prototype Tooling
>Motorola Inc.


                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 08:29:15 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:04:21 -0500
References: <3.0.1.32.19970725100428.0099a9d0 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"rCdz6.0._F7.cACsp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Jul 25,  8:57am, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
>     Hmmm...  The evidence for a giant comet/meteor impact at the end of the
> Pre-Cambrian seems well established.  It could have imparted additional
> angular momentum to the crust which caused the shift, but probably what
> happened is more that it caused the surface to break (relatively) free of
> the aethenosphere and slide into an alignment which put the most mass on
> the equator.  (A giant impact can punch through the crust and--if at sea
> would put a lot of lubricant into the Moho.)  I have been wondering about
> the apparent pole wandering at the end of the last Ice Age and just noticed
> that there is a fairly benign explanation of why...  When the Atlantic
> flooded into the Mediteranian basin, this would have shifted the
> distribution of mass on the surface fairly radically, as would the melting
> of the ice sheet.  The distribution of moments of inertia seems opposite to
> the observed sliding, but the actual physical displacement does not.
> (Think of taking the ice sheet from eastern North America, melting it, and
> stuffing it into the Med.)  If the crust slides easily   Newton takes over...

At least I am not alone in my madness.  This was my impression as well, but with it being largely speculation I didn't think to bring it up.  The crust slip is not that hard to imagine, we all ride on a nice fluid bearing.  I don't think it unreasonable for any crustal movement of this nature.  The catalyst to cause such a change in angular momentum is the difficult part.  Apart from magnetic artifacts and geological markers, I don't feel we will ever have any conclusive evidence how or why however.

I like the Mediteranian basins flooding analysis.  Not conclusive, but could be a nice premise for continued investigation into the phenominon.



-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 09:17:24 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:11:25 -0700 From: Puthoff@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:10:48 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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OK, you should have all the wire infor from us, sent earlier.

Hal Puthoff

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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:04:53 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: yusmar
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Some time back Scott was trying to figure what the "Secret Ingredient" might be in the Yusmar vortex apparatus.

I added many ingredients.  None worked, yet!

 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/fznidarsic/index.html">Yusmar, Znidarsic, Joh nstown</A> 

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From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: yusmar
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:07:12 +0000
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At 05:04 PM 7/25/97 +0000, Frank Z. wrote:
>Some time back Scott was trying to figure what the "Secret Ingredient"
>might be in the Yusmar vortex apparatus.
>
>I added many ingredients.  None worked, yet!

You might try Oxalic Acid, HOOC-COOH and at the same time try to keep the surface tension as high as possible. This should give a hotter cavitation "bubble" pressure and thus higher temperatures. If you can't get the temperature to at least 5,000 K (0.5 ev) and perhaps 1.5 ev peak, you might as well pack it in. Also some heavy metals like Cadmium might make things interesting. :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
> <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/fznidarsic/index.html">Yusmar, Znidarsic, Joh
>nstown</A> 
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 11:01:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:47:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer@gav.gat.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:48:54 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: H recombination
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>Does anyone have a rough formula for the percentage of recombination
>of H to H2 in an electrolytic cell wherein H is formed, as a function
>of time?
>I.e. How much H (nascent) is left n seconds after turning off the
>power (at room temp)?
>How much does this change if the electrode is a hydrogen absorbing
>metal?

I don't really know, but I offer the following thoughts:

Two H atoms are attracted to each other (in a gas, I don't know if things change in a liquid, but I doubt it), unlike the case of many molecules wherein there is an initial small repulsive force (or activation energy or barrier) to overcome.  Therefore, the rate of H + H ---> H2 will be not be limited by activation energy.  For the encounter to result in a molecule, and not for the two atoms to fly apart because of their excess energy, there must be an energy loss during their time of significant interaction.
In solution there is abundant opportunity for energy transfer interactions with the surrounding water molecules.  Ditto for H atoms adhering to a solid surface.  Therefore, I would expect a not-too-small fraction of H + H encounters to yield bound molecules.  In other words, I would expect atomic hydrogen to form H2 rapidly.

Finally, the reaction will be proportional to the rate at which two atoms encounter one another, which is proportional to [density of H] squared.
There will always be some very low density (concentration) at which H atoms simply take a  long time to find each other.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


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Subject: Re: Blacklight power
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In a message dated 7/25/97 7:32:23 PM, you wrote:

<<What does Hal think of the theory presented in the book that Blacklight publishes? >>

I haven't studied it in detail.  It does differ from my own analysis that considers that the hydrogen atom's orbiting electron is a dynamic equilibrium process in which radiation (due to acceleration) is compensated by absorption from the zero-point energy "sea."  (H. E. Puthoff, "Ground state of hydrogen as a zero-point-fluctuation-determined state," Phys Rev D vol 35, p. 3266, 1987.)

Hal

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 17:27:56 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 17:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: <@snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: yusmar
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 17:50:03 -0400
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Frank Znidarsic wrote:

> Some time back Scott was trying to figure what the "Secret Ingredient"
> might be in the Yusmar vortex apparatus.
> 
> I added many ingredients.  None worked, yet!
------------
But Yuri Potapov was there, at Frank's elbow, and o/u performance was not seen. If there is a magic ingredient, why did Potapov not provide it at LANL or at Frank's lab? 
It would seem that Potpapov himself does not understand the fundamentals of his device, unless it is not truly an o/u device. 

Mike Carrell

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 15:58:18 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:06:08 -0700 Date: 25 Jul 97 18:04:10 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of c Resent-Message-ID: <"ouItO1.0.gi3.DDIsp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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 > If the crust slides easily   Newton takes over...

He does, but he doesn't need the crust to slip.  A sphere has exactly zero rotational stability, which probably explains why so many of the planets have axes wildly skewed from the angle one might expect.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 15:31:05 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:23:17 -0700
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net> Reply-To: rmforall@earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com,
        t_n_claytor lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, wireless@rmii.com,
        cc840 freenet.carleton.ca, g-miley@uiuc.edu,
        mizuno athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@onramp.net,
        reeber aro.ncren.net, danyork@iadfw.net, 74750.1231@compuserve.com,
        72507.3443 compuserve.com, rollo@artvark.com, letters@csicop.org,
        editors sciam.com, mcfee@x-div.lanl.gov, bssimon@helix.ucsd.edu,
        jdunn ctc.org, sarfatti@well.com, david@ibg.uu.se, cmurray@uh.edu,
        lucille telis.org, design73@aol.com, reed@zenergy.com,
        jlagarde cyberaccess.fr, blue@pilot.msu.edu, dennis@wazoo.com,
        conte teseo.it, ine@padrak.com, rgeorge@hooked.net,
        100276.261 compuserve.com, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, britz@kemi.aau.dk,
        zumm flash.net, dacha@shentel.net, jchampion@transmutation.com,
        bockris chemvx.chem.tamu.edu, ghlin@greenoil.chem.tamu.edu,
        bhorst loc100.tandem.com, kennel@nhelab.iae.or.jp, drom@vxcern.cern.ch,
        mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, david@italy.it.earthlink.net, k@suba.com,
        shellied sage.dri.edu, f.beg@ic.ac.uk, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil,
        rfheeter princeton.net, rmills@blacklightpower.com,
        wrgood earthlink.net, j.hasselberger@agura.stm.it,
        yekim physics.purdue.edu, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com,
        negal dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu, tchubb@aol.com,
        perkins3 llnl.gov, harti@harti.com, storms@ix.netcom.com,
        76002.1473 compuserve.com
Subject: Other isotopic anomalies in Cincinatti Cu flake?
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3:30 PM July 25, 1997

Hi Vorts,

The new website [http://web.gcis.net/cincygrp] for the Cincinatti Group provides something remarkable in the annals of cold fusion research: gobs of specific raw data!  In this case, two pages of an analysis on a tiny Cu flake, from electrolytic transmutation of thorium, by Robert Liversage [Who is he?  Can we have his addresses and phone numbers?] at the University of Cincinatti on a Perkin Elmer/Sciex Elan 250 ICP/MS, April 22, 1997.

Besides a very high peak for Cu 65, there seem to my untrained eyes to be anomalies for Si 30, Cr 53, Fe 57, Ni 61, and Zn 67, compared to their other isotopes:

Si30	137260  total intensity count rate

Cr53	  7744

Fe57	 71020

Ni61	  5152

Cu63	  1100

Rich Murray
Room For All
1943 Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103
rmforall earthlink.net

Cu65     10708

Zn67      5224

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 20:03:40 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:51:32 -0700 From: VCockeram@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:50:54 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"Tjzcc2.0.Wn6.pOMsp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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All,
I got interested in this subject back when I was in an IBM school (3705 I think), a cold March of 1976,
To pass the time in off school hours I purchased a book to read over a weekend.
It was a work of fiction (based of certan facts) titled "The HAB Theory" by Allan W. Eckert, ISBN: 0-445-08597-5. (what the hell is a ISBN number?(ok call me dumb)).
It dealt with a radical pole shift taking place in a metter of _days_!  It was so interesting, I remember reading the book straight through in around thirty hours!  I read a lot, read fast, but I have never been so into a book in my life. (over 50)  It dealt with a postulation that pole shift (crust sliding over the hot, slippery magma).  <comment: Looking at pictures of the volcano in Hawii, I see where he's coming from> This was, I think brought forth in the 1930"s or  40's by en electrical engineer named Herbert Allen Boardman.

Vince
Las Vegas Nevada

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 20:05:05 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:54:52 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:51:29 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> Subject: On a lighter note (fwd)
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Another favorite is "The wheel's spinning, but the hamster's dead." 

 "Dumb as a box of rocks."

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 14:30:04 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:19:15 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 11:17:19 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"EMNs83.0.3X7.Idcsp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Vince -

   >  comment: Looking at pictures of the volcano in
   >  Hawii, I see where he's coming from

The volcanoes here have always made me think the opposite. They seem to evolve from a fixed location below the crust. If the crust moved around so much, the "Hawaiian" volcanoes would be popping up in all kinds of different places, unless: we were near the axis of the polar rotations, or if the plume really isn't a mantle feature, but a crustal one. That second situation doesn't seem to make much sense, and the first one seems to be a remarkable coincidence if we're talking about a number of major events over many tens of millions of years.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 20:25:23 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 20:15:57 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:12:32 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> Subject: Measure of IQ.. On a lighter note Resent-Message-ID: <"gABZH2.0.i9.hlMsp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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	Smart as a 2 by 4
	
	Too tightly wrapped

	Not wrapped tightly enough

	Native intelligence of a pint of water

	Ignorance is treatable, but stupid can go clean to the bone.

	You know the level headed when tobacco juice leaks equally from 
		both sides of the mouth

	Artificial intelligence:  5th of 151 rum

	IQ.... idiot quotient

	He is SHARP!  As sharp as a tomato.

	Internal brain signal to noise ratio is 1:1

	Cunning as an earthworm

	Clever as a door stop

	Has the brilliance of stove paint

	He has the well honed intuition of a concrete footer

	The tact of a D 9

	The fluid balance and reflexes of  the 3 toed sloth

	The remarkable clarity of a 1/4" plate of cold rolled steel

	The wit of a bug on the windshield


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 22:31:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:23:06 -0700 X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:22:26 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Gary Hawkins <ghawk eskimo.com>
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At 10:04 AM 7/25/97 -0500:

>The crust slip is not that hard to imagine, we all ride on a nice fluid bearing.

East of Seattle, near Cle Elum, is at least one of those places where beautifully preserved palm frond fossils can be found rather easily by breaking open the type of stones that were once mud (sandstone or whatever it is called).

Gary Hawkins

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 25 21:59:23 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:58:38 -0700
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net> Reply-To: rmforall@earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
To: cincygrp ix.netcom.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com Subject: Data on Cincinatti Cu flake
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July 25, 1997

Dear Cincinatti Group,

Would you post on Vortex-L and on your webpage information about Robert Liversage at the University of Cincinatti, and some information about how to interpret the two pages of mass spectroscopic data, since most of us are not specialists, and could use considerable background info, such as what level of isotopic anomalies occur commonly, whether the test can discriminate between elements with the same atomic mass, whether there might be inteferences from molecules in the system, how much of the flake was consumed in the test, whether more than one test was made on the same flake, whether other isotopic anomalies are present, such as Si30...
Also, it'd be neat to provide an additional retyped copy of the data, because the pages are hard to read on my IBM ThinkPad laptop.

Thanks!  Rich Murray

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 05:51:35 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:44:09 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Relativity and Gravity-Antigravity Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:43:31 +0000
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To Vortex:

Some thoughts on forces between moving charges,relativity and gravity.

When two charges of the same sign are moving side by side in the same direction, whether in a conductor or free in space as in an electron beam they feel an attractive force that increases as their velocities approach the velocity of light.

The fundamental particles seem to exhibit a current somewhat like a current in a loop of wire (spin) this "loop current" is about 20 amperes for the electron and about 12,000 amperes for each of the three "quarks" that make up the proton. However, these charges are moving so close to the vacuum velocity of light that time dilation causes them to act as if there is only currents of millionths of amperes flowing in them with the corresponding weak attractive forces, ie., the gravity force between them.

This effect is somewhat like two trains on parallel tracks moving in the same direction and at synchronized speeds close to c, when synchonized they are at rest relative to each other and you can play ping-pong between them. Less synch,less velocity, less force. 

Based on this scenario, a device to create a repulsive force (antigravity) between masses is going to require a means of achieving velocity synchonized charge-forces between the "antigravity device" and a mass.

Attempting this with conventional electromagnets is a waste of time.
Pulsed "lines" may be a different story.

Have Fun!   :-)

Regards,    Frederick


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 08:20:13 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 08:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:13:29 -0500
From: "Patrick V. Reavis" <preavis ro.com> Organization: NASA Student Volunteer
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents References: <970725225053_2059481044 emout05.mail.aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"RuPHw1.0.hi6.PEXsp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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<HTML>
If the Earth's crust were to shift, would the oceans not "lag' behind?
I can envision the oceans scouring the continents clean of all life. A flood of Biblical proportions?
<BR>Patrick Reavis</HTML>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 09:21:59 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:19:45 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:18:04 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 97-07-26 11:13:07 EDT, you write:

<< If the Earth's crust were to shift, would the oceans not "lag' behind? >>

Patrick,

Take two pie tins, filled with water to the brim, hold them at straight out, arms extended. Now rotate your body 90 degrees. Dont do this in your house!

Vince
LasVegas Nevada

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 11:11:00 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: 26 Jul 97 13:53:27 EDT
From: Gene <76570.2270 CompuServe.COM>
To: <cincygrp ix.netcom.com>, VORTEX <vortex-L@eskimo.com>,
        Robert Bass <rbrtbass pahrump.com>, <rmforall@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Data on Cincinatti Cu flake Resent-Message-ID: <"md-jd1.0.x5.0fZsp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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>July 25, 1997
>
>Dear Cincinatti Group,
>
>Would you post on Vortex-L and on your webpage information about Robert
>Liversage at the University of Cincinatti, and some information about
>how to interpret the two pages of mass spectroscopic data, since most of
>us are not specialists, and could use considerable background info, such
>as what level of isotopic anomalies occur commonly, whether the test can
>discriminate between elements with the same atomic mass, whether there
>might be inteferences from molecules in the system, how much of the
>flake was consumed in the test, whether more than one test was made on
>the same flake, whether other isotopic anomalies are present, such as
>Si30...
>Also, it'd be neat to provide an additional retyped copy of the data,
>because the pages are hard to read on my IBM ThinkPad laptop.
>
>Thanks!  Rich Murray


Rich,

All this amd MUCH MORE on transmutation will be appearing in Infinite Energy Magazine's Special Double Issue #13/14 (120 pages or more), which is going to press within the next 10 days. 

Liversage is highly qualified.

No time for further comment. Please be patient. You all will be very happy soon....

Best, 

Gene 

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302

	Phone: 603-228-4516
	Fax:   603-224-5975
		  76570.2270 compuserve.com

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 11:54:43 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 11:48:40 -0700 From: Puthoff@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:48:02 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 7/26/97 2:24:15 PM, you wrote:

<<Based on this scenario, a device to create a repulsive force (antigravity) between masses is going to require a means of achieving velocity synchonized charge-forces between the "antigravity device" and a mass.

Attempting this with conventional electromagnets is a waste of time.
Pulsed "lines" may be a different story.>>

Fred, have you tried it?

Hal

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From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Relativity and Gravity-Antigravity Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:48:22 +0000
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At 06:48 PM 7/26/97 +0000, Hal Puthoff wrote:
>
>In a message dated 7/26/97 2:24:15 PM, you wrote:
>
><<Based on this scenario, a device to create a repulsive force (antigravity)
>between masses is going to require a means of achieving velocity 
>synchonized charge-forces between the "antigravity device" and a mass.
>
>Attempting this with conventional electromagnets is a waste of time.
>Pulsed "lines" may be a different story.>>
>
>Fred, have you tried it?
>
>Hal
>
No,Hal: But I passed the thought along to NASA some months ago.

Seems that regular transmission lines won't do, but a "Flat" line which is in effect a couple of conductive strips with an insulator between them (like an uncoiled capacitor) will let you pick the line impedance (a terminating resistance): Z = (width/spacing)*(u/e)^1/2 (ohms). 

The pulse velocity on the line should be; 1/(u*e)^1/2, and the pulse rate looks like it should be about 3.1 Megahertz. The amplitude can be established considering power = (.5V)^2/Z. The polarity would have to be established by experiment.

Overall, the attractive or repulsive force might be:

F = 1.0E-7*0.02583*5.98E24*pulse ampere-meters*coupling-factor/6.38E6^2 (newtons). The power dissipated in the terminating resistors [light bulbs? :-)] has to be less than the input pulse power to satisfy conservation of energy.

However,since the loop constitutes a magnetic dipole it might tend to flip over and crash into the Earth's enormous relativistic-magnetic ie., gravity field.  Since I don't have a pulse generator handy as well as being retired and lazy, I  haven't done any more than talk about it. :-)

Best Regards,     Fred Sparber

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 13:04:40 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:53:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Martin Sevior <msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: More from Robert Park.
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Here's a good one from this week's Robert Park email column.
------------------------------------------------------------------

4. THE GOLDEN YO-YO AWARD: FOR THE BEST SPIN CONTROL OF 1997.
According to an unnamed NASA official, quoted this week in The New Republic, "Someday when there's a fire aboard one of our spaceships to Mars or Venus, we'll extinguish it.  That day we'll think back and say thank you to the Russians."  That sets the bar pretty high, but it's only July and nominations are still open.



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 13:19:18 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:06:08 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> Subject: report:   Relativity and Gravity-Antigravity Resent-Message-ID: <"lAD2A1.0.kY.ycbsp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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	Report from Gravity Society

	www.gravity.org

	Dear Vo,

	Please see some notes below, in body of text.  This is a brief report of some work relayed to Gravity Society as "Personal Communication.  ... because of this I cannot tell you the "how", but can reveal some of the key emperical results which are germane to this line of discussion.

On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:

> At 06:48 PM 7/26/97 +0000, Hal Puthoff wrote:
> >
> >In a message dated 7/26/97 2:24:15 PM, you wrote:
> >
> ><<Based on this scenario, a device to create a repulsive force (antigravity)
> >between masses is going to require a means of achieving velocity 
> >synchonized charge-forces between the "antigravity device" and a mass.
> >
> >Attempting this with conventional electromagnets is a waste of time.
> >Pulsed "lines" may be a different story.>>
> >
	Can and has been done by at least three completely un related groups of individuals ..... ie., with "conventiaonal electromagnets" Only one confirmed in out own labs at this present time.


> >Fred, have you tried it?
> >
> >Hal
> >
> No,Hal: But I passed the thought along to NASA some months ago.
> 
> Seems that regular transmission lines won't do,

	Transmission lines work fine.

 but a "Flat" line
> which is in effect a couple of conductive strips with an insulator
> between them (like an uncoiled capacitor) will let you pick the line
> impedance (a terminating resistance): Z = (width/spacing)*(u/e)^1/2   
> (ohms). 

	Transmission lines can also commonly take the form of coaxial cable or sections thereof.  Often these are rigid.

> 
> The pulse velocity on the line should be; 1/(u*e)^1/2, and the pulse
> rate looks like it should be about 3.1 Megahertz. The amplitude can
> be established considering power = (.5V)^2/Z. The polarity would have
> to be established by experiment.

	Rate, polarity and magnitude do not follow equation above.... 
there can be, under certain configuration wide variations and the effect will still obtain.


> 
> Overall, the attractive or repulsive force might be:
> 
> F = 1.0E-7*0.02583*5.98E24*pulse ampere-meters*coupling-factor/6.38E6^2
> (newtons). The power dissipated in the terminating resistors 
> [light bulbs? :-)] has to be less than the input pulse power to satisfy
> conservation of energy.
> 
	Resistors not absolutely required.


> However,since the loop constitutes a magnetic dipole it might tend to 
> flip over and crash into the Earth's enormous relativistic-magnetic ie., 
> gravity field.  Since I don't have a pulse generator handy as well as
> being retired and lazy, I  haven't done any more than talk about it. :-)
> 
> Best Regards,     Fred Sparber
> 
> 


			JHS

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 13:23:57 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:09:48 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu> Subject: Gravity Society Relativity and Gravity-Antigravity Resent-Message-ID: <"YGKqY1.0.-01.4lbsp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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	This is a release for mthe Gravity Society.  The work was revealed via 'personal communication'.   The emprical result can be revealed but not the 'how to', at this time.   This is one of the verified effects from two entirely different sources.

	See notes in text.


On Sat, 26 Jul 1997 Puthoff aol.com wrote:

> 
> In a message dated 7/26/97 2:24:15 PM, you wrote:
> 
> <<Based on this scenario, a device to create a repulsive force (antigravity)
> between masses is going to require a means of achieving velocity 
> synchonized charge-forces between the "antigravity device" and a mass.
> 

	Synchronization is not required.


> Attempting this with conventional electromagnets is a waste of time.
> Pulsed "lines" may be a different story.>>
> 
> Fred, have you tried it?
> 
> Hal
> 
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 14:07:46 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:44:52 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:31:54 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: Rich Murray <rmforall@earthlink.net> cc: vortex-L@eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com,
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Subject: Re Other work in Other isotopic change Resent-Message-ID: <"2Rl0g1.0.0C5.37csp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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	Dear Group,


	Should anyone be interested:

	In 1994-1995 at Antioch College, we duplicated a modification of Wm. A. Barker's work on accelerated decay of radioactive material.   The experiment was set up generally as Barker had set it up, and we did the wok with his blessing and knowledge.
	The experiment performed substantially as described in the 1992 patent.


				JHS

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 14:36:44 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:17:05 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu> Subject: See more notes.... Relativity and Gravity-Antigravity Resent-Message-ID: <"ttPQ92.0.bo3.Sfcsp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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	Gravity Society USA, Release
	www.gravity.org

	See notes below, again, this is personal communication so I can report the empirical, and not the 'how to"On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Frederick J. 
Sparber wrote:

> To Vortex:
> 
> Some thoughts on forces between moving charges,relativity and gravity.
> 
> When two charges of the same sign are moving side by side in the
> same direction, whether in a conductor or free in space as in an
> electron beam they feel an attractive force that increases as their
> velocities approach the velocity of light.
> 
---------------------------------

	Leave out the quarks and protons for now

> The fundamental particles seem to exhibit a current somewhat like
> a current in a loop of wire (spin) this "loop current" is about 20
> amperes for the electron and about 12,000 amperes for each of the three
> "quarks" that make up the proton.

---------------------------------------------------------
	Getting to the point, in a real 'hardball' actual experimental set up:


 However, these charges are moving
> so close to the vacuum velocity of light **********************

	0.66 to 0.83 C in a real world actual working rig.

************************

 that time dilation causes them
> to act as if there is only currents of millionths of amperes flowing in
> them with the corresponding weak attractive forces, ie., the gravity force
> between them.
> 
	+++++++++++++++++

	We are getting 40 milliamperes.

				++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



> This effect is somewhat like two trains on parallel tracks moving in
> the same direction and at synchronized speeds close to c, when 
> synchonized they are at rest relative to each other and you can play 
> ping-pong between them.

	_________________________________________________-

 Less synch,less velocity, less force. 
> 
	Velocity is independent of synchronization  within;  20% of lambda : rate of prpagation : C

__________________________________________________________

> Based on this scenario, a device to create a repulsive force (antigravity)
> between masses is going to require a means of achieving velocity 
> synchonized charge-forces between the "antigravity device" and a mass.
> 

	Sync not a requisite in working set up.

--------------------------------------------------



> Attempting this with conventional electromagnets is a waste of time.
> Pulsed "lines" may be a different story.
> 
> Have Fun!   :-)
> 
> Regards,    Frederick
> 

	Recorded neg 1.6 % G
> 
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 14:28:24 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:20:31 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Notes    Re: Relativity and Gravity-Antigravity Resent-Message-ID: <"pu9Io1.0.o_3.nicsp" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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	Tried variation.
	Works.

On Sat, 26 Jul 1997 Puthoff aol.com wrote:

> 
> In a message dated 7/26/97 2:24:15 PM, you wrote:
> 
> <<Based on this scenario, a device to create a repulsive force (antigravity)
> between masses is going to require a means of achieving velocity 
> synchonized charge-forces between the "antigravity device" and a mass.
> 
> Attempting this with conventional electromagnets is a waste of time.
> Pulsed "lines" may be a different story.>>
> 
> Fred, have you tried it?
> 
> Hal
> 
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 22:07:43 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 22:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:59:22 -0700
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Subject: Re: Followup on the Atlantis-under-Antartica Idea References: <1.5.4.32.19970722210335.006bc100 atlantic.net> <9707231023.ZM13958@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Gnorts Vorts!

With regard to Atlantis/Lemuria and other 'lost' civilizations....I am of the opinion that the water jacket which was believed to have once covered the earth in the form of a dense vapor, and which absorbed the most damaging of the UV rays, thereby enabling inordinate longevity, was the key to what really happend to these lost countries. 

What are now oceans were once the mountains, valleys and plains of these lost countries...when the water jacket collapsed by precipitating into rain, it flooded these areas and all was lost.....seeya!
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X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 18:16:18 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 18:11:07 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Relativity and Gravity-Antigravity Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 01:09:28 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:48:22 +0000, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip]
>However,since the loop constitutes a magnetic dipole it might tend to 
>flip over and crash into the Earth's enormous relativistic-magnetic ie., 
>gravity field.  Since I don't have a pulse generator handy as well as

So make it in a circle, and mount it on a gyro, and spin it up to prevent it from flipping over. Sounds like a recipe for a UFO to me :).
BTW If the Podklenov (sp?) disk accidentally consisted of two (or more) microscopic superconducting layers separated by insulators, then his disk and your "tape" may have been functionally equivalent.

>being retired and lazy, I  haven't done any more than talk about it. :-)
>
>Best Regards,     Fred Sparber
>

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 19:38:27 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:31:41 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 22:31:00 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    New balance system, (described in second letter, down page) Date:    97-07-26 22:24:43 EDT
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Subj:    Possible verification of overunity using simple math Date:    97-07-21 14:52:18 EDT
From:    HLafonte
To:      vortex-l eskimo.com                ( FIRST LETTER )

   I have a simple magneto layout that incorporates a spin balance system.
The magneto is the simple type used in the common lawnmower. 
   I always felt that an overunity device would have to be explained in simple force times distance, divided by time, to show the power output of the system. The principal that the system operated on would have to be very simple and easy to explain. 
   I would like to explain a system that I believe meets these requirements.
I welcome any comments !
   First, we will look at the spin balance system.
   It is made up of two permanent magnets in the repulsion mode. One is fixed, the other is rotating 360 deg., with the two magnets in maximun repulsion at the "top" 
of the "circle" at zero degrees. The rotation is clockwise. 
   The top fixed magnet has a ferrite bar between it's pole and the rotating magnets pole. This bar is connected to a electro-magnet positioned at 90 degrees (on the side of the ferrite bar) to the ferrite bar. As a pulse is sent to the electro-magnet the flux between the two magnets in repulsion is diverted and now the three magnets, one electro, two permanent are now in the attraction mode! (SEE GREG WATSON'S HOME PAGE, FOR RESEARCH BY BUTCH LAFONTE)  THE DURATION OF THE PULSE IS WHAT MAKES THE SYSTEM OVERUNITY. THE HIGHER THE RPM THE SHORTER THE PULSE TO THE ELECTRO-MAGNET TO SWITCH OFF THE REPULSION MODE AND MAKE THE SAME AMOUNT OF FORCE TIMES DISTANCE COME INTO PLAY AS THE MAGNETS ARE IN THE REPULSION MODE BETWEEN ZERO AND 90 DEGREES. THE SWITCH IS PULSED BETWEEN 270 DEGREES AND ZERO DEGREES, BUT THE PULSE IS NOT CONSTANT IN STRENGTH BETWEEN 270 AND ZERO, BECAUSE THE THE "LINES OF FORCE INCREASE BETWEEN 270 AND ZERO AS THE SQUARE OF THE DISTANCE, (AT 270 DEGREES 2 LINES PER UNIT AREA, AT 315 DEGREES 4 LINES PER UNIT AREA, ECT.) THIS ANALOG INCREASE MAKES FOR MINIMUN POWER USE DURING THE PULSE.
   This would appear to make a good overunity motor, but when you pair it up with a standard magneto, things get even more interesting. 
   The two units are connected by a shaft in sequence. The rotor of the magnet follows the rotating repulsion magnet in the balance system (they are at the same degree of rotation at any given time). the fixed stator of the magneto has an open circuit on it's coil between 270 and 0 degrees. This keeps any repulsion force from developing in the stator due to current flow in the coil. 
   Now between 270 and zero degrees the balance system is in the attraction mode (switch being pulsed) and the rotor in the magneto is also in the attraction mode!
   Now the rotor and the balance system reach zero degrees and the switch is off in the balance system, putting the balance system in the repulsion mode to push the rotor of the magneto through the zero to 90 degree phase and produce power in the stator coil by the collapse of the magnetic field around the stator coil that now has a CLOSED circuit. The collapse of the magnetic field is caused by the rotor leaving the stator and "taking" it's magnetic field with it. A drag is imposed on the rotor due to it's attraction to the ferrite core of the stator and the additional magnetic field produced by the current flow in the stator's coil. the drag is over come by the repulsion force of the balance system in combination with the kinetic energy input to the system by the magnets in the attraction mode in the magneto and balance system during the previous passage from 270 to zero degrees.
   So we have two systems in attraction working with one in repulsion to combine their forces to overcome one system with a drag imposed on it. 
   At the high speed the the system is turning ( estimated 10,000 rpm ) the rapid collapse of the magnetic field will produce a very high voltage and current and a equal amount of drag. 
   THIS DRAG MUST NEVER EXCEED THE FORCE OF THE BALANCE SYSTEM (REPULSION) (ZERO TO 90 DEGREES) AND ATTRACTION FORCES OF THE STATOR AND AND SWITCHED BALANCE SYSTEM (270 TO ZERO DEGREES). THIS CAN BE CONTROLLED BY CONTROLLING THE AMOUNT OF CURRENT ALLOWED TO FLOW IN THE STATOR COIL.
   If anyone is in agreement with me and would do a graphic illustration for the web I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks, Butch LaFonte 
                                                       NEW BALANCE SYSTEM
    (SECOND LETTER)























































































































































































































































                                                                          The new balance system is made up of two electro-magnets, one fixed and the other rotating. These are layed out just like the permenent magnets in the original design, but the ferrite bar is no longer needed, or the electro-magnet that is attached to it.
   First I will review the simple math for mutually coupled induction coils connected in series aiding (attraction) and in series opposing (repulsion).
   Example: A 5 henery and a 12 henery coil are connected in series and, initially, spaced far apart. The coils are then moved close together so that they are coupled by a mutual inductance of 7 henrys. What is their total inductance, if (a) the current flows through the coils in the same direction and (b) the current flows through the coils in opposing directions?
   Solution: The inductance of the two uncoupled coils in series is L = L 1 + L 2 = 5 + 12 = 17 henrys
   When the mutual inductance is 7 henrys and the coils are connected in series aiding (attraction), L = L 1 + L 2 + 2 M = 5 + 12 + 14 = 31 henrys; when the coils are connected in series opposing (repulsion), their total inductance L = L1 + L 2 - 2 M = 5 + 12 - 14 = 3 henrys.
   As you can see the coils will have a lower inductance when the coils are in repulsion and the time to rise for the current and magnetic field will be much shorter and require less power than for the coils in attraction.
   Now the fun part. If the balance section is pulled through 270 to 0 degrees (see original post above) by the rotor, then  work is done on the system and if you keep the electro-magnets in the balance system "turned off" for the larger part of this time, say, 270 to 358 degrees, then when you close the circuit to the coils in repulsion, the inductance will be near it's lowest point as will it's time to rise (inductive time constant), meaning a short " pulse " of  high voltage needed to meet a required magnetic field strength. the high RPM will required this high voltage to get the field strength in a short time period, but the power used is lower if you recall the the "square of the distance" rule as stated in original post. Remember, inductance is lower the closer the coils are to each other !
   Now as the balance system and the rotor move past 0 degrees and the stator generates electrical power, it is pushed through 0 to 90 degrees by the repulsive force of the balance section going from 0 to 90 degrees. As the rotating electro-magnet moves away from the fixed electro-magnet the induction increases in the coils and the time for the current to fall increases. This means the repulsion force lasts longer than the repulsion force that was in effect between 358 and 0 zero degrees. It does this on the same power that was put into the coils between 358 and zero degrees. 
   Summary:
   1. The system gets a power stroke from the rotor that is in an attraction mode (permanent magnets) between 270 and zero degrees.
   2. The balance system is not in a repulsion or attraction mode between 270 and 0 degrees, until it gets two say, the 358 or 359 degree point, then it is fast pulsed into the repulsion mode but pulled through  to zero degrees by a portion of power supplied by the rotor going between 270 and zero degrees.
The remainder of that power is surplus to the system at this point.
   3. Now the rotor is at zero degrees, ready to produce electrical power between 0 and 90 degrees. It is pushed through this distance by the balance system that is in the repulsion mode starting at 0 degrees also but using the same magnetic field produced in it between 359 and zero degrees.
   4. As long as the current in the stator is controlled so that it does not produce a drag greater that the repulsion force in the balance section in combination with any surplus work done by the the rotor in the attraction mode from 270 to zero degrees, then I see the system as being over unity.

Note: This system could be related to a system that described an increased voltage pnenomenon in an atricle titled: INCREASED VOLTAGE PNENOMENON IN A RESONANCE CIRCUIT OF UNCONVENTIONAL MAGNETIC CONFIGURATION, The publication was the June, 1995 issue of, Journal Of Applied Physics, The American Institute of Physics. It was the first article to my knowledge that was from an "establishment"  publication that talked of an over unity device.
Note:  Quote from article: " VOLTAGE CHANGES FOUND IN THE SYSTEM OCCUR DURING THE TRANSITION FROM A LOW-INDUCTANCE STATE TO A HIGH- INDUCTANCE STATE AND ARE NOT SUBJECT TO THE SUDDEN DROP OR RISE TYPICALLY ASSOCIATED WITH FERRORESONANCE AND PARAMETRIC RESONANCE".
Comments Please !
Thanks, Butch LaFonte

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 26 15:25:33 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:14:47 -0700 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 00:17:51 -0700
From: Jean-Paul Biberian <biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr> Reply-To: biberian@crmc2.univ-mrs.fr
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Other isotopic anomalies in Cincinatti Cu flake?
References: <33D93565.22F earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"TXWMM2.0.oL3.MRdsp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Rich Murray wrote:

> The new website [http://web.gcis.net/cincygrp] for the Cincinatti Group
> provides something remarkable in the annals of cold fusion research:
> gobs of specific raw data!  In this case, two pages of an analysis on a
> tiny Cu flake, from electrolytic transmutation of thorium, by Robert
> Liversage [Who is he?  Can we have his addresses and phone numbers?] at
> the University of Cincinatti on a Perkin Elmer/Sciex Elan 250 ICP/MS,
> April 22, 1997.
> 
> Besides a very high peak for Cu 65, there seem to my untrained eyes to
> be anomalies for Si 30, Cr 53, Fe 57, Ni 61, and Zn 67, compared to
> their other isotopes:
>
I have done a more complete analysis of the data, and I think that some precautions should be taken in the analysis. Here are my questions:

> Si30    137260  total intensity count rate

There is a possible interference with CNH4  
> Cr53      7744

There is a possible interference with C4H5

> Fe57     71020

It seems that it is Fe56 which is too large compare toFe54, but one has to be cautious because of interferences with Cr, CrH, MnH and Ni58

> Ni61      5152

Regarding Ni, things are more complex, because one must take into account NiH.
I have done the calculation with NiH/Ni = 1.16, and everything becomes natural except for Ni64, but it interferes with Zn64

> Cu63      1100
> Cu65     10708

I have corrected the 65 and 63 peaks for the contribution of Ni64H and Ni62H respectively, and I find Cu65/Cu63= 2651% (natural 44.7%)

> Zn67      5224

After minor corrections, I find Zn67/Zn64 = 46.5% (natural 8.5%)

My opinion is that the only reliable numbers are the copper anomaly, and may be Zn67


-- 
Jean-Paul Biberian

biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr

tel : (33) 476 82 67 51 Grenoble
tel : (33) 491 72 35 45 Marseille (voice mail) fax: (33) 476 82 67 67 Grenoble

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 27 04:30:34 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 04:26:20 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Relativity and Gravity-Antigravity Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:25:42 +0000
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On Sun, 27 Jul 97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> So make it in a circle, and mount it on a gyro, and spin it up
>to prevent it from flipping over.
> Sounds like a recipe for a UFO to me :-).

It does, doesn't it?  :-)  You should be able to coil up the "foil" transmission lines like a tubular capacitor with the matched terminating resistors (light bulbs)fed off the center of the coil. This way you could place these "thrust units" at the most effective locations, like say five of them in a "Vee" pattern, with the gyro suitably located also.

This way you should be able to "skid" the vessel by manipulating the torque on the gyro and the force on the "thrusters" and get very high lateral speeds.    :-)

BTW, the flat line impedance is Z = (spacing/width)*(u/e)^1/2 ohms I transposed the spacing-width when I posted earlier.

At the Earth's surface the lift force is: 380*pulse rate*C*V times the coupling factor (newtons). So with 20 volts pulse amplitude at 3.1E6 hertz pulse rate etc., you could get tonnes of lift with a few hundred watts of input power, if the coupling allows the setup to act as a "Carnot Cycle" engine.  

You might note that maneuvering will cause the lights to change brightness-color, and if you are not using a motorcycle engine to run the power generator the vessel should be very quiet.   :-)

Regards,      Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 27 10:44:12 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 10:43:24 -0700 (PDT) References: Conversation <19970727112539.AAA17397@LOCALNAME> with last message <19970727112539.AAA17397@LOCALNAME> Priority: Normal
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Fred Epps" <fepps halcyon.com>
Subject: Re: Relativity and Gravity-Antigravity Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 06:15:17 PDT
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Thanks for the UFO plans, Fred.

Fred

----------
> On Sun, 27 Jul 97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
> > So make it in a circle, and mount it on a gyro, and spin it up
> >to prevent it from flipping over.
> > Sounds like a recipe for a UFO to me :-).
> 
> It does, doesn't it?  :-)  You should be able to coil up the
> "foil" transmission lines like a tubular capacitor with the
> matched terminating resistors (light bulbs)fed off the center
> of the coil. This way you could place these "thrust units" at the
> most effective locations, like say five of them in a "Vee" pattern,
> with the gyro suitably located also.
> 
> This way you should be able to "skid" the vessel by manipulating
> the torque on the gyro and the force on the "thrusters" and get
> very high lateral speeds.    :-)
> 
> BTW, the flat line impedance is Z = (spacing/width)*(u/e)^1/2 ohms
> I transposed the spacing-width when I posted earlier.
> 
> At the Earth's surface the lift force is: 380*pulse rate*C*V
> times the coupling factor (newtons). So with 20 volts pulse amplitude
> at 3.1E6 hertz pulse rate etc., you could get tonnes of lift with
> a few hundred watts of input power, if the coupling allows the setup
> to act as a "Carnot Cycle" engine.  
> 
> You might note that maneuvering will cause the lights to change
> brightness-color, and if you are not using a motorcycle engine
> to run the power generator the vessel should be very quiet.   :-)
> 
> Regards,      Frederick
> 
> 


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 27 10:45:06 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 10:26:45 -0700 Date: 27 Jul 97 13:20:38 EDT
From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l@eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: Re: Relativity and Gravity-Antigravity Resent-Message-ID: <"0XiyB1.0.eL2.KJusp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Fred writes:

>>You might note that maneuvering will cause the lights to change brightness-color,<<

Which is exactly what happens in observations of the UFO phenomenon.  Generally, hovering objects exhibit a orange or yellow glow which switches to white or blue as the thing is maneuvering.

Terry

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 27 11:12:29 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:03:09 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Relativity and Gravity-Antigravity Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 18:02:32 +0000
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At 05:20 PM 7/27/97 +0000, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Fred writes:
>
>>>You might note that maneuvering will cause the lights to change
>brightness-color,<<
>
>Which is exactly what happens in observations of the UFO phenomenon.
Generally,
>hovering objects exhibit a orange or yellow glow which switches to white or blue
>as the thing is maneuvering.
>
>Terry
>
That figures, if there are halogen gases around the "load resistors-lights", or if a gas discharge is being used as a terminating resistance on the transmission-pulse lines.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 27 14:10:51 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: 27 Jul 97 17:04:21 EDT
From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l@eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: Re: Relativity and Gravity-Antigravity Resent-Message-ID: <"Ordk82.0.EE.dYxsp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Fred said:

>>That figures, if there are halogen gases around the "load resistors-lights", or if a gas discharge is being used as a terminating resistance on the transmission-pulse lines.   :-)<<

This *does* answer an enigma surrounding the phenomenon.  People have always wondered, "If they don't want to land and be seen, then why do they have lights."  The lights are a necessary "exhaust" of the propulsion system!  Hmmm, why can't you just radiate the 3.1 MHz stimulating signal?

Terry

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From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Relativity and Gravity-Antigravity Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 22:11:53 +0000
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At 09:04 PM 7/27/97 +0000, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Fred said:
>
>>>That figures, if there are halogen gases around the "load resistors-lights",
>or if a gas discharge is being used as a terminating resistance on the
>transmission-pulse lines.   :-)<<
>
>This *does* answer an enigma surrounding the phenomenon.  People have always
>wondered, "If they don't want to land and be seen, then why do they have
>lights."  The lights are a necessary "exhaust" of the propulsion system!  Hmmm,
>why can't you just radiate the 3.1 MHz stimulating signal?
>
>Terry
>
The 3.1 MHz pulse string is moving down the transmission line to act as a flow of charge ie., a current q = Capacitance times Voltage so, 3.1E6*CV equal q*t = current I. The velocity is, 1/(u*e)^1/2 You can't get electrons to move down a wire at more than a meter/hour If you want to use an electron beam along with all of the problems, you could consider it.
 _______________
|               |-o-->--o-----------o--/ |Pulse Generator| _||_  pulse line     \<--- load resistance R |_______________|-0-->--o-----------o--/

this is a possible way to create a "relativistic" magnetic field that may synch with and attract-repel the gravitational field.

If you run an "ordinary" current down a wire to create an ordinary magnetic field, like with an electromagnet the resistance of the wire dissipates the applied I^2*R or you can take a pair of wires hooked to a battery with a light bulb attached to the other end and set up an "ordinary" magnetic field. 

The power dissipated by the load resistance is; (0.5V)^2/R or I^2*R.
Need more power: 1, increase pulse rep rate, 2, increase voltage and the load resistor gets hotter-brighter and changes from red to yellow-orange then white-blue. :-)

You can do about the same thing with the dimmer control on the lights in your den, or the instrument lights in your car.
  
Regards,   Frederick 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 27 14:29:36 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 16:08:29 -0700
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: [Fwd: Stefan Marinov dead?]
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Hi Folks!

I truly hope this is a mistake, but I just got an email from a Gernot Weilharter saying Stefan Marinov, famous Bulgarian researcher and publisher of 'the Thorny Way of Truth' had committed suicide....

No further details were provided....does anyone know more about this?
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187



X-From_: freenrg-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 27 15:40:33 1997 Return-Path: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com X-Intended-For: <knuke@aa.net>
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> Recent entry "Report your unusual phenomena", no email address given.
> 
> .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
> William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
> EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
> Seattle, WA 98117  billb eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> I often experiment with high voltage, electromagnets,
> and ion repulsion in my basement.  I often have
> trouble with a home made array of electromagnets that are
> held together with long iron rods.  The weak solder
> connections often force the magnets in on each other,
> creating a magnetic dome.  It was around 3 a.m. when I
> filled a metal bucket with highly concentrated salt water,
> trying a crystalization experiment.  I placed the bucket on
> my "electro-table" which can generate high charges of
> positive, negative, or combined charges via a thick wire
> connected to the bottom of the bucket.  I connected the
> negative charger to the bucket.  When I went to connect the
> positive wire, a large spark occured which startled me.
> Jumping back, a mistakingly turned on the electromagnet.
> I broke and went into a dome shape.  The bucket flew
> up towards the magnet.  I was about to turn the magnet off,
> when I notice that the water was slowly making a pilar.
> Like a cone of water within the dome of megnets.  I quickly
> put on some thick rubber gloves and touched the cone.  A
> very painful splash of water hit my face and the cone
> immediately collapsed.  It seemed like the water was also
> spinning at a very high rate of speed, which was confirmed
> when I touched it.  I don't know how it happened, but I have
> been unsuccessful in recreating the event.
> John Cox
> Columbus, Ga USA - Saturday, July 26, 1997 at 07:52:08 (PDT)
> ------------------------------------------------------Hi Bill!

Sounds like it formed an 'electro-rheological' fluid...where electricity causes the molecules of an amorphous conductive substance to cohere into a physical pattern...perhaps the saltwater and magnetic field together had something to do with it....strange......

As a side note, the smart 'fluid' metal which could be formed of miniature microcontrolled nano-machines working to form coordinated patterns on command might be the more complex approach when simple electro-rheology in formatted patterns could achieve similar results...
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 27 20:33:37 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:21:28 -0700 From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Relativity and Gravity-Antigravity Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 03:21:02 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On 27 Jul 97 17:04:21 EDT, Terry Blanton wrote:

>Fred said:
>
>>>That figures, if there are halogen gases around the "load resistors-lights",
>or if a gas discharge is being used as a terminating resistance on the
>transmission-pulse lines.   :-)<<
>
>This *does* answer an enigma surrounding the phenomenon.  People have always
>wondered, "If they don't want to land and be seen, then why do they have
>lights."  The lights are a necessary "exhaust" of the propulsion system!  Hmmm,
>why can't you just radiate the 3.1 MHz stimulating signal?
>
>Terry
>
(Or "point" the lights "up"? :)
Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 27 20:27:09 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:22:34 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Relativity and Gravity-Antigravity Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 03:21:03 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Sun, 27 Jul 1997 22:11:53 +0000, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip]
>The 3.1 MHz pulse string is moving down the transmission line to
>act as a flow of charge ie., a current q = Capacitance times Voltage
>so, 3.1E6*CV equal q*t = current I. The velocity is, 1/(u*e)^1/2

Shouldn't this be q/t = I?

>You can't get electrons to move down a wire at more than a meter/hour
>If you want to use an electron beam along with all of the problems, 
>you could consider it.

They move a lot faster in superconductors.

> _______________
>|               |-o-->--o-----------o--/   
>|Pulse Generator| _||_  pulse line     \<--- load resistance R
>|_______________|-0-->--o-----------o--/
>
>this is a possible way to create a "relativistic" magnetic field
>that may synch with and attract-repel the gravitational field.
>
>If you run an "ordinary" current down a wire to create an ordinary
>magnetic field, 

then....what?
>like with an electromagnet the resistance of the wire
>dissipates the applied I^2*R or you can take a pair of wires hooked
>to a battery with a light bulb attached to the other end and set up
>an "ordinary" magnetic field. 
>
[snip]
Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 27 20:34:34 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:28:00 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Smoke Detector Mystery
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 03:26:34 +0000
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To Vortex:

A friend in Michigan has been plagued over the past few days with one of the ionization type smoke detectors in his home going off with no trace of any smoke or alkyl phthalates (used to test smoke detectors)or from my own experience with sensitive detectors, carbolic acid (phenols). 
The smoke detector was exchanged with another from a different part of the house and this unit also triggered at this location. When the detector was held near any of the four ceiling fans located throughout the house it was triggered also.

The humidity has been pushing 85% with temperatures up to the nineties or so. When the temperature dropped about 10 degrees the triggering diminished and stopped altogether at lower temperatures.

The literature on ionization smoke detectors states that they use a few microcuries or less of an alpha emitter like Americium which keeps a Fail-Safe ion current going in the detector and if smoke particles or other ion-grabbing compounds interrupt the current the detector triggers the alarm circuit.

The only thing that has changed in the house after a few years of use is the recent installation of "Very Expensive Carpeting" (probably Nylon 6,6) with stain resistant coating, Teflon? 
and an Antistatic compound in the fiber.

What is interrupting the detector current?  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 27 21:48:14 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:41:53 -0700 Date:      Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:35:09 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" <peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: "vortex" <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com> Subject:   peaceful weekend brainstorming Resent-Message-ID: <"pGW2n2.0.ar4.GC2tp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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PEACEFUL WEEKEND BRAINSTORMING.

Regarding the Yusmar, Mike Carrell wrote:

"If there is a magic ingredient, why did Potapov not provide it at LANL or at Frank's lab? 
It would seem that Potapov himself does not understand the fundamentals of his device, unless it is not truly an o/u device." Fundamentals?
This is a very good and stimulating question, both for the device in question and for all the other cold fusion systems.

A. The YUSMAR.
This is a cavitation based generator and it works only in a specific mode of cavitation which takes place at the moving interface of two water streams--a vortex and a jet. Precise adjusting is necessary, and what's essential according to Yuri _the whole loop works_. That means: the active sites--in this case, bubbles are traveling through the pump, pipes heaters and come back to the cavitation tube, where they are even more enhanced and so on. Any perturbance of the resonating hydrodynamics is able to destroy the excess heat generating process. The most efficient process killer is a flow-measuring restriction in one of the pipes of the main loop.
Any ingredients, hydrogen generating or consuming or whatever in the liquid circulated are absolutely useless, this is a hydrodynamics-controlled process. NO magic ingredient exists.
Now to the question: "does Potapov himself understand the fundamentals of his device?"  this is a problem of defining fundamentals.
Potapov has a profound understanding of the COMPLEXITY of the physical and chemical processes taking place and he doesn't believe in a simple "theory". The main contributors to heat generation are: friction, hydrodynamic braking, the elongation of the water molecule (very severe significant quantities of ozone are formed by tearing H2O apart and recombination!), cavitation and sonoluminescence; technologically useful charge separation also takes place. 
The adjustment of his devices is based on empirical know-how and trial- and-error steps, which are present in almost all technological systems which do not have a fully developed exact theory.
An example: the cavitation tube we carried to Los Alamos one year ago was tested in a standard open pump system and gave COP=1.6; Yuri was conviced that with a good American pump it will give at least 1.8.
However we were forced to use a non-standard set-up with a 4 inch pump in a 6 inch pipe and when we came over the repeated troubles of the unscrewing pump tearing the electrical wires of the pump's motor, it became obvious that the thing is not working well (it was not "singing" as usual). A decision, a unique one had to be made, and this was to adjust the diameter at the entrance to the head of tube, where the vortex like moving is initiated. This was 8 mm (0.31"), Yuri has decided to make it 14 mm (0.55"); this is increasing the surface of this hole 3 times. Yuri's son and I voted for 11 mm, a less radical change but the time was pressing. Anyway, I consider that the problem with this set-up is that it is too a narrow space for the pump and it cannot work at all. So all I can advise Frank is to put the pump plus the cavitation tube in a greater vessel, as in the case of a standard M setup with an immersed pump. And forget all theories for a while, including his own; sometimes application of the theories is much more difficult than elaborating or understanding them.
Potapov has not fully accepted any theory; he greeted Sapogin's early ideas of matter transformed in energy but these have no predictive or problem solving ability. When I met him in June, he discussed about the "electrino" theory of a gentleman called Baziev but my impression is that he is coming step by step to the "space energy" concept.

B. About Griggs.
It is a great pity that we have no news from Jim Griggs, it remains a complete mystery if NASA has confirmed or rejected his o/u claims or if other independent data does exist.
A paper in ANE Newsletter (http://www.acad4newenergy.com> explains that "Griggs must play down the over unity  aspect of his invention, as he says 'fear of chasing a customer away with talk of a device that defies energy conservation laws'. This situation is very humiliating for science and truth, I think. A victory of dogma against logic.

Both Potapov and Griggs are using principles closely related to sonoluminescence; it is probable they will have a fundamenting theory when sonoluminescence will have one. Use <www.theriver.com> to find the websites specialized in SL and enjoy the numerous contradictory theories. Beauty and confusion at the highest level.I have suggested a connection of SL to the Mills theory but have not yet any answer nor from Mills neither from the SL gurus.
There are no theoretical fundaments in this area..but many good workers are trying to find and build them out.

C. Some other questions to my vortex brethren:

1) Has CETI a valid theory for heat generation or for transmutations?
And why is this company updating its website for almost two long months? It is one of the technological leaders, it had sold some RIFEX kits which for the time given had to give some results, positive or negative or undecidable and we have nothing new from them. Is some kind of Inquisition acting? In any case, the field of low energy transmutation reactions is developing well. Will George Miley give us a real theory, at the level of his experimental results? What will remain from the present paradigm of physics when this theory will be demonstrated and accepted?

2) BlackLightPower has a very promising process, a fine theory (which was not discussed by the theorists as its novelty, greatness and value it deserve) and an exemplary business plan. And has a great URL, unfortunately also not active for the last two months.."more coming next week" (next week does not arrive). In any case BLP is the finest CF site despite the fact that it is not cold fusion at all.

3) E-Quest also does not have a complete theoretical fundament but has published recently a paper re. helium bubbles in Pd foils which demonstrates that real nuclear reactions take place in this system.
A highly professional, important work. Please take a look to <http://www.hooked.net/~rgeorge/sonof.html> It is one other process related to sonoluminescence.

4) Arata's giant paper is fine, solid results, clever theory, genuine cold fusion. When will he scale up the process? How much?

5) Labofex Canada: no news are good news? Who knows..their website is unchanged and I am not aware of their new publications.

6) The recent Ragland Cell tests brought us only disappointment; will they continue? Will Ragland defend his reputation? Is there a theory explaining why this cell does work?
Is an Earth Tech run no 4 under way?

7) The great star Piantelli has disappeared, I hope due to a successful but highly secret cooperation with FIAT. Some say he and his device are both dead (scientifically) while others say, no, they are alive..is the truth somewhere in the middle???? Do not forget that his patent claimed theoretical certainty..Schwinger type D + H fusion beyond any doubt, even though now this appears as impossible, a Mills type process seems to be more probable. Complete mystery.

8) No news about Jacques Dufour, <www.cnam.fr> not changing; his sparking system is really interesting and is an other case of solid heat results without nuclear ashes..yes, the Cold Fusion family is great and includes nuclear and non-nuclear members.
  9) The Cincy Group has just arrived, their website is smelling of fresh paint. I hope they will stay with us for a long-long time and will show us those great and mighty things we have expected for so long. We thought the nucleus is rocklike, now we shall learn that it can be like a veil. Welcome, Cincy Group!

Many questions, a mixed vision. I know, it is silly season and history is slow viewed from inside as Chris stated once..but it is a fact that communication in CFland is bad. Isn't it?
Best wishes,
Peter
-- 
dr. Peter Gluck

Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology         Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700           Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania                                  Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 27 23:19:01 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:11:34 -0700 Date:      Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:16:28 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" <peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: "vortex" <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com> Cc: "Peter Glueck" <peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro> Subject:   CETI's Website
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        Dear Vortexers,
This morning after sending my first message, I could state that CETI's website has ressurected i.e. eventually has finished updating. 
No. 2 of the CETI Tech newsletter is included. A new patent US 5,635,038 has been published.
It seems the company is developing well.
Peter
-- 
dr. Peter Gluck

Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology         Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700           Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania                                  Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 28 05:41:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:36:22 -0700 From: Tstolper@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:35:47 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Baked Cathodes
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In the debate between W. Good and Z. Shkedi in Fusion Technology, Vol. 30 (September 1996), pp. 132-133, Shkedi wrote (p. 133) that his team at Bose cleaned its cold-drawn nickel wire cathodes with acetone and methanol and then baked the cathodes at 1100 degrees C for 2 hours.  

Good wrote (p. 132) in his "Comments on 'Calorimetry, Excess Heat, and Faraday Efficiency in Ni-H20 Electrolytic Cells'" that such cleaning and baking would leave an organic residue.  

Shkedi asked, "what organic residue can survive 1100 degrees C for 2 h as postulated by Mr. Good?"

Do we have any surface chemists on Vortex-L?  Has anyone ever heard of an organic residue that might survive such baking?

Tom Stolper

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 28 08:21:53 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:04:51 -0700 Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:18:12 -0500
References: <19970728032627.AAA22785 LOCALNAME> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Smoke Detector Mystery
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On Jul 27, 10:21pm, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:

> The only thing that has changed in the house after a few years of use
> is the recent installation of "Very Expensive Carpeting"
> (probably Nylon 6,6) with stain resistant coating, Teflon?
> and an Antistatic compound in the fiber.
>
> What is interrupting the detector current?  :-)

Mine goes off if I forget to use the exhaust fan while taking a shower.  I always figured the super saturated air was somehow collecting a charge and tripping the circuit.  Seems reasonable to me that high humidity could have a similar effect.  Temperature could just be a contributing factor.

-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 28 09:38:50 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:20:40 -0500
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970725225033.24844B-100000 college> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: On a lighter note (fwd)
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On Jul 25,  9:48pm, John Schnurer wrote:

>  "Dumb as a box of rocks."

Aren't you forgetting about collective intellegence here? <g>


-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 28 09:02:16 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:59:12 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:57:24 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: 3.1 Mega Hertz...
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Terry Blanton writes about a 3.1 Mega Hertz stimulating signal.

..............................................................................
....

What is this?  How was it measured?

Please tell me what you know!

................................................................



Frank Znidarsic                 fznidarsic aol.com 481 Boyer St.                   http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html Johnstown, Pa.   15906


Automatic links:<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html"> Home_Page</A>
<A HREF="mailto:fznidarsic aol.com">Send_E-mail </A>



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 28 09:14:29 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:03:23 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:02:26 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: antigravity cold fusion tampere Resent-Message-ID: <"8d5T4.0.lH7.9BCtp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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The key to understanding these technologies is the symmetry that exists between force and gravity.  For my latest paper on the subject see.

 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/physrev.txt">The Source of Inertia l and Grav. Mass</A> 

Frank Z

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 28 14:28:46 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:14:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little <little@eden.com>
Subject: Re: Baked Cathodes
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At 22:23 7/28/97 -0700, Jean-Paul Biberian wrote:

>> then baked the cathodes at 1100 degrees C for 2 hours.

>I am a surface physico-chemist, and at that temperature, I believe that
>the only thing that will remain is a carbon layer. Hydrocarbon molecules
>will evaporate and/or break up and a thin carbon film will deposit.

If the baking is done in air, wouldn't you expect the residual C to be converted to CO2 which would then leave the surface?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 28 17:21:27 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:08:09 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Smoke Detector Mystery
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:06:20 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 03:26:34 +0000, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:

>To Vortex:
>
>A friend in Michigan has been plagued over the past few days with
>one of the ionization type smoke detectors in his home going off
>with no trace of any smoke or alkyl phthalates (used to test smoke
>detectors)or from my own experience with sensitive detectors, carbolic
>acid (phenols). 
>The smoke detector was exchanged with another from a different part 
>of the house and this unit also triggered at this location. When the
>detector was held near any of the four ceiling fans located throughout
>the house it was triggered also.
>
>The humidity has been pushing 85% with temperatures up to the nineties
>or so. When the temperature dropped about 10 degrees the triggering
>diminished and stopped altogether at lower temperatures.
[snip]
This is a little far fetched, but possible I think. Suppose that the trigger mechanism is borderline sensitive. I.e. it's just about ready to go off at any moment, but doesn't quite. When the device gets hot, it expands, increasing slightly the distance between source and target. This results in slightly fewer particles reaching the detector, which then triggers the alarm. (Then again air at a higher temp. would probably also be less dense :).

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 28 17:15:22 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:08:08 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: "vortex" <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com> Subject: Re: peaceful weekend brainstorming Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:06:23 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:35:09 GMT, Peter Glueck wrote:

>PEACEFUL WEEKEND BRAINSTORMING.
>
[snip]
>theories. Beauty and confusion at the highest level.I have suggested a 
>connection of SL to the Mills theory but have not yet any answer nor 
>from Mills neither from the SL gurus.

Hi Peter,

Since you mention it, I will show you a few reactions I have been considering:
************************************************************* * H2O -> O++ +H2 -2e- -54.117 eV                            * * H + O++ -> Hy + O+++ + e- -54.934 eV                      * * H + H2O ->Hy + O+++ +H2 -3e -109.05 eV (=108.8 + 0.25 eV) * * (The third reaction is the sum of the first two)          * * (Hy is a hydrino)                                         * ************************************************************* 54.4 eV = 2 x 27.2 eV, and 108.8 eV = 4 x 27.2 eV.

There are similar reactions involving F and Cl.
[snip]
Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 28 21:29:50 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:25:43 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 06:00:19 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
Subject: [Fwd: Smoke Detector Mystery]
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My original posting did not appeared on the list for 16 hours, so I am reposting it.Message-ID: <33DC5B16.104C1B44 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:40:54 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> Organization: Orchestra
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Frederick J. Sparber wrote:

<...> 
> The smoke detector was exchanged with another from a different part
> of the house and this unit also triggered at this location. When the
> detector was held near any of the four ceiling fans located throughout
> the house it was triggered also.
<...>

> What is interrupting the detector current?  :-)

Probably nothing, the EM noise radiated from fan and from other appliances may excite the detector amplifier even the alarm circuit.

Regards, 

hamdi ucar


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 00:42:34 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:32:27 -0700 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:14:29 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 3.1 Mega Hertz...
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	Stimulating signal for WHAT?   Induction heating,??

On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:

> Terry Blanton writes about a 3.1 Mega Hertz stimulating signal.
> 
> ..............................................................................
> ....
> 
> What is this?  How was it measured?
> 
> Please tell me what you know!
> 
> ................................................................
> 
> 
> 
> Frank Znidarsic                 fznidarsic aol.com
> 481 Boyer St.                   http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html
> Johnstown, Pa.   15906
> 
> 
> Automatic links:<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html">
> Home_Page</A>
> <A HREF="mailto:fznidarsic aol.com">Send_E-mail </A>
> 
> 
> 
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 28 21:17:04 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:06:53 -0700
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net> Reply-To: rmforall@earthlink.net
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com> To: Robert Bass <rbrtbass@pahrump.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Cold Fusion/Transmutation  on  ABC-TV,  June 11, 1997 Date: Monday, June 09, 1997 4:21 AM   Hi Bob:

How are you doing?  Are you going to any meetings this year? (like the IECEC 7/97 meeting?)

Best wishes.     Mitchell

Our paper #97009 Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic  Generators Using Nickel Cathodes has been accepted to IECEC '97  Hilton Hawaiian Village

            Honolulu Hawaii   July 28 - August 1, 1997
            http://members.aol.com/busassist/IECEC97.HTM

 Our paper is in a section on cold fusion, and is between Miles (US Navy) and Szpak (US Navy).  The titles are below.

IECEC-97

The American Institute of Chemical Engineers (AIChE) runs  the 32nd Intersociety Energy Conversion Engineering Conference.  The IECEC provides a forum to present and discuss engineering aspects of

energy conversion, advanced energy conversion systems and devices, energy utilization and efficiency, environmental issues, and policy impacts  on the research, development and implementation of energy systems. 

The IECEC is sponsored by six participating societies: the AIChE,  the American Nuclear Society (ANS), the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA), the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME),  and the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE). 

Session 52:  Innovative Concepts I   - New Concepts I Session 66:  Innovative Concepts II  - New Concepts II Session 77:  Innovative Concepts III - Cold Fusion Results Session 89:  Innovative Concepts IV  - Additional Concepts


---------------------------------------------------------- Session 77:  Innovative Concepts III - Cold Fusion Results ----------------------------------------------------------

Thursday PM, July 31

97221
------------------------------------------------------------------ Thermal Energy Production From Electrolytic Cells (The Patterson Power Cell)
D. Cravens and P. Bailey

97538
------------------------------------------------------------------ Anomalous Heat and Helium Production Using Palladium-Boron Alloys in Heavy Water
M. Miles, K. Johnson, and M. Imam

97009
------------------------------------------------------------------ Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators Using Nickel Cathodes
M. Swartz

97120
------------------------------------------------------------------ Thermal and Nuclear Events Associated with the Pd+D Codeposition S. Szpak and P.A. Mosier-Boss

97368
------------------------------------------------------------------ Excess Heat and Unexpected Elements from Aqueous Electrolysis with Titanium and Palladium Cathodes
J. Dash, R. Kopecek, and S. Miguet

97198
------------------------------------------------------------------ Changes for Isotopic Distribution of the Elements on Palladium Cathode After Electrolyzed in D2O Solution
T. Mizuno, T. Akimoto, K. Kurokawa, M. Kitaichi, K. Inoda, K. Azumi, S.
Simokawa, T. Ohmori, and E. Enyo

97373
------------------------------------------------------------------ Nuclear Transmutation Induced by Light Water Electrolysis With Gold Electrode
T. Ohmori, T. Mizuno, and M. Enyo
**end**


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 28 21:14:49 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:16:11 -0700
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net> Reply-To: rmforall@earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rmforall@earthlink.net, danaustin@earthlink.net Subject: CF at 32nd IECEC, Honolulu, Session 77,  July 31 Resent-Message-ID: <"v4-5E3.0.Zu5.4nMtp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Session 77 - Honolulu III

Innovative Concepts III - Cold Fusion Results

Chaired By: P. Bailey, Institute for New Energy, Los Altos, CA 

For presentation times - please see inside of the front and back covers of the Final Program.

A Review of the Patterson Power Cell (97221) P. G. Bailey, Institute for New Energy, Los Altos, CA; H. Fox,
Fusion Information Center, Salt Lake City, UT



Anomalous Heat and Helium Production Using Palladium-Boron Alloys in Heavy Water (97538) M. H. Miles, K.
B. Johnson, Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division, China Lake, CA; M. A. Imam, Naval Research
Laboratory, Washington, DC



Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators Using Nickel Cathodes (97009) M. Swartz, JET Energy
Technology, Inc. Weston, MA



Thermal and Nuclear Events Associated with the Pd+D Codeposition (97120) S. J. Szpak, P.A. Boss, NCCOSC,
San Diego, CA



Excess Heat and Unexpected Elements from Aqueous Electrolysis with Titanium and Palladium Cathodes
(97368) J. Dash, R. Kopecek, S. Miguet, Portland State University, Portland, OR



Changes in Isotopic Distribution of the Elements on Palladium Cathode After Electrolyzed in D2O Solution
(97198) T. Mizuno, T. Akimoto, K. Kurokawa, M. Kitaichi, K. Inoda, K.
Azumi, S. Simokawa, T. Ohmori,
Hokkaido University, Sapporo, Japan; M. Enyo, Hakodate National College of Technology, Hakodate, Japan



Nuclear Transmutation Induced by Light Water Electrolysis With Gold Electrode (97373) T. Ohmori, T.
Mizuno, Hokkaido University, Kitaku Sapporo, Japan; M. Enyo, Hakodate National College of Technology,
Tokuracho Hakodate, Japan

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 28 21:07:18 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:00:25 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Smoke Detector Mystery
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:34:36 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"RhIPg3.0.BX5.LhMtp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 12:06 AM 7/29/97 +0000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 03:26:34 +0000, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>
>>To Vortex:
>>
>>A friend in Michigan has been plagued over the past few days with
>>one of the ionization type smoke detectors in his home going off
>>with no trace of any smoke or alkyl phthalates (used to test smoke
>>detectors)or from my own experience with sensitive detectors, carbolic
>>acid (phenols). 
>>The smoke detector was exchanged with another from a different part 
>>of the house and this unit also triggered at this location. When the
>>detector was held near any of the four ceiling fans located throughout
>>the house it was triggered also.
>>
>>The humidity has been pushing 85% with temperatures up to the nineties
>>or so. When the temperature dropped about 10 degrees the triggering
>>diminished and stopped altogether at lower temperatures.
>[snip]
>This is a little far fetched, but possible I think. Suppose that the
>trigger mechanism is borderline sensitive. I.e. it's just about ready
>to go off at any moment, but doesn't quite. When the device gets hot,
>it expands, increasing slightly the distance between source and
>target. This results in slightly fewer particles reaching the
>detector, which then triggers the alarm. (Then again air at a higher
>temp. would probably also be less dense :).
>

I think that we nailed it down, Robin. The four ceiling fans (like something out of a Somerset Maugham novel)had been running for days.

It was discovered that the triggering of the detectors when held near the fans was astonishing. Apparently the fans got hot enough to out-gas fragments of a phenol formaldehyde or phenol furfural or such from the insulating varnish or phenolic (bakelight) parts, thus triggering the detectors. :-)

I checked a smoke detector using a soldering gun and putting various materials on the tip with the detector close by. Smoke from phenolic items were sensed the quickest.

Regards,    Frederick

>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
>-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
>Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
>temperature.
>"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
>PS - no SPAM thanks!
>-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 28 13:52:02 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Intended-For: knuke@aa.net
Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:23:47 -0700
From: Jean-Paul Biberian <biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr> Reply-To: biberian@crmc2.univ-mrs.fr
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Baked Cathodes
References: <970728083545_475473132 emout06.mail.aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"eXJMr3.0.2-.VzFtp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Tstolper aol.com wrote:
> 
> In the debate between W. Good and Z. Shkedi in Fusion Technology, Vol. 30
> (September 1996), pp. 132-133, Shkedi wrote (p. 133) that his team at Bose
> cleaned its cold-drawn nickel wire cathodes with acetone and methanol and
> then baked the cathodes at 1100 degrees C for 2 hours.
> 
> Good wrote (p. 132) in his "Comments on 'Calorimetry, Excess Heat, and
> Faraday Efficiency in Ni-H20 Electrolytic Cells'" that such cleaning and
> baking would leave an organic residue.
> 
> Shkedi asked, "what organic residue can survive 1100 degrees C for 2 h as
> postulated by Mr. Good?"
> 
> Do we have any surface chemists on Vortex-L?  Has anyone ever heard of an
> organic residue that might survive such baking?
> 
> Tom Stolper

I am a surface physico-chemist, and at that temperature, I believe that the only thing that will remain is a carbon layer. Hydrocarbon molecules will evaporate and/or break up and a thin carbon film will deposit.


-- 
Jean-Paul Biberian

biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr

tel : (33) 476 82 67 51 Grenoble
tel : (33) 491 72 35 45 Marseille (voice mail) fax: (33) 476 82 67 67 Grenoble

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 04:12:39 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:04:03 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Relativity and Gravity-AntiGravity Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:03:11 +0000
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To Vortex:

No John, the 3.16 MHz pulse frequency isn't for induction heating. :-)

Assuming a frequency of maximization of the wave of each of the three "quarks" in a proton or any of the "quarks" in heavier atoms to be 7.7E22 pulses/second (which corresponds to a current of 1.23E4 Amperes) and the relativistic time-dilation  based on 0.02583 ampere meters/kilogram times 1.67E-27/3 = 1.437E-29 ampere-meters per kilogram for each quark,as opposed to 3.5E-13 ampere-meters/kg undilated for each quark,then the dilation (gamma factor)should be 3.5E-13/1.437E-29 equal 2.434E16. 

Then, 7.7E22/2.437E16 = 3.16E6 pulses/second (or Hertz) would be the "frequency of synchronization" between the "flat line" pulse string and the gravitational field.

For an exercise, if the velocity of light was 100 miles/hour and there was an aircraft circling above you (at night) a a velocity so close to 100 mph that it's gamma factor was 2.43E16 with it's wing lights blinking off for one second and on for one second by the pilot's watch, you would see the light come on for 2.43E16 seconds and go out for 2.43E16 seconds or a cycle of about 1.5 Billion years!   :-)

Regards,     Frederick


 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 05:42:18 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 05:31:57 -0700 X-Sender: revtec@postoffice.ptd.net
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:36:57 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: jeff fink <revtec ptd.net>
Subject: PAGD
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was thinking of putting a gram of KOH in my PAGD tube to see if anthing strange happens.
However, I will have to get an entire pound at $30.  Could someone send a few flakes, and
would anyone care to speculate on results?


Jeff Fink

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 05:51:57 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 05:38:18 -0700 X-Sender: estrojny@freeway.net
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:37:07 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Edwin Strojny <estrojny freeway.net> Subject: Re: Baked Cathodes
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At 08:35 AM 7/28/97 -0400, Tom Stolper wrote:
>
>Shkedi asked, "what organic residue can survive 1100 degrees C for 2 h as
>postulated by Mr. Good?"
>
>Do we have any surface chemists on Vortex-L?  Has anyone ever heard of an
>organic residue that might survive such baking?
>
>Tom Stolper
>
I am not a surface chemist (organic chemist by training); however, I have worked closely with surface chemists since my job involved heterogenous catalysis.  Acetone or methanol on nickel would not survive 1100 deg C for two hours.  I currently am working with nickel filaments in hydrogen and I wash the filaments with acetone.  On heating the filaments to red heat in hydrogen there is an exotherm which lasts for about an hour before a stable set of conditions is reached.  I attribute this exotherm to absorption of hydrogen by the system rather than decomposion of any residual acetone present.  I conclude that acetone washings do not affect the performance of the filaments.  Acetone and methanol would certainly wash away body oils accumulated on the filaments by handling.  Sodium chloride from the body probably could still be present.

Ed Strojny


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 07:23:31 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:10:29 -0700 (PDT) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:08:26 -0700
Subject: Re: PAGD
References: <3.0.1.32.19970729083657.0073a594 postoffice.ptd.net> X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-21
From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
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Jeff,

Tell more about your PAGD.

Have you heard anything new about the Correa's and the Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharge device ?

Tim

On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:36:57 -0400 jeff fink <revtec ptd.net> writes:
>was thinking of putting a gram of KOH in my PAGD tube to see if 
>anthing
>strange happens.
>However, I will have to get an entire pound at $30.  Could someone 
>send a
>few flakes, and
>would anyone care to speculate on results?
>
>
>Jeff Fink
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 12:01:45 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:37:20 -0700 From: "Scudder, Henry J." <HJSCUDDE@rdyne.bna.boeing.com> To: Vortex-L <Vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Scientists report radical shift of continents Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:09:00 -0700
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John
	The distance between the earth and the moon also hit a minimum sometime near that time. It  has been increasing slowly since then, do to tidal frictions both in the seas, and on land. This probably also had major effects on life as well.
Hank
 ----------
From: John Steck
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Scientists report radical shift of continents Date: Friday, July 25, 1997 6:04AM

NEWSpot Morning Edition   7/25/97
11:41 AM ET 07/24/97
(Release at 4 p.m. EDT July 24)
By Michael Miller

            PASADENA, Calif. (Reuter) - A 90-degree shift of the Earth's early continents -- in which the North and South Poles wound up at the equator -- may have played a major role in the evolutionary ``big bang'' that speeded up the development of life, scientists said.
            A report to be published Friday in the journal Science said the ``big bang,'' a sudden spurt in the evolutionary process, began about 530 million years ago and proceeded at a rate 20 times faster than anything that has happened since.
            What caused that spurt has long been a mystery perplexing scientists; now experts at the California Institute of Technology say they may have part of the answer.
            Caltech geologists Joseph Kirschvink and David Evans and Robert Ripperdan of the Oak Ridge National Laboratories in Tennessee said the relatively sudden diversification of life forms took place at the same time as Earth's then-super continents took a 90-degree turn, shifting the polar masses to the equator and putting equatorial points at the poles.
            Both events occurred during the so-called Cambrian period when a major reorganization of the Earth's crust took place.
            They said in Science that all the data ``indicate that rapid continental drift occurred during the same time interval as the Cambrian evolutionary diversification and, therefore, the two events may be related.''
            Kirschvink said, ``Life diversified like crazy about a half a billion years ago, and about 15 million years later life's diversity had stabilized at much higher levels. What actually happened is one of the outstanding mysteries of the biosphere.''
            He added that the geophysical evidence collected from rocks deposited before, during and after the evolutionary speedup, ''demonstrate that all of the major continents experienced a burst of motion during the same interval of time.''
            Evans told Reuters the study indicated that in order to change their positions so radically, the super continents -- which broke up about 150 million years ago to form today's continents -- would have traveled several feet per year over a 10 million to 15 million year period.
            The phenomenon is known as ``true polar wander,'' in which the entire solid part of the planet moves together. Typical continental migration rates today, which are caused by heat convection in the Earth's crust, are only a few inches a year, Evans said.
            Kirschvink said the climatic changes, in which life forms existing in cold temperatures were thrust into warmer regions, and vice versa, forced their diversification as they adapted to their new environments.
            It also produced a survival of the fittest pattern of evolution in which certain groups died off and others became stronger through survival.
            Of particular significance to the scientists was the once super continent of Gondwanaland, probably made up of what is now Australia, Antarctica, India, Africa, South America and perhaps parts of East Asia.
            Studies of rocks found in Australia and dating back to the Cambrian period ``demonstrate that Australia rotated counter- clockwise during this time. Other parts of the Gondwanaland super continent must have been involved in this ... rotation,'' the report in Science said.
            In fact, the scientists say, ``We speculate that the entire lithosphere (the solid outerpart of the Earth) may have been involved in this rotation.''

 --
John E. Steck
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 12:00:03 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:51:37 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:48:23 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Relativity and Gravity-AntiGravity References: <19970729110309.AAA18888 LOCALNAME> Resent-Message-ID: <"mRjGU1.0.ye3.tkZtp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Frederick J. Sparber wrote:

> No John, the 3.16 MHz pulse frequency isn't for induction heating. :-)

It might be useful to look at data regarding the frequencies of EM emissions from unusual aircraft. The following document exists.
I don't have the document, or any other information about it. 
Maybe someone has it, or knows a way to get it. 

"Summary of Signature and Statistical Data RF, Unidentified Objects Observed During ICBM Missions", by C.R. Berndston, MIT Lincoln Laboratories, Contract # F19628-73-C-0002

There is some sketchy information about EM emissions in the Handbook of Ufology, pages 106-109. Two cases are described:

The first case is a UFO sighted by an Air Force B-47 over the Gulf of Mexico in 1957, and documented in the Condon Report. The UFO was reported by the pilot to be as "big as a barn" with a "steady red glow", flying at "speeds far greater than an airplane". The object emitted electromagnetic radiation at a frequency of about 2800 MHz with "startling intensity".

The second case is a UFO encountered by a military aircraft equipped for electronic countermeasure missions. A detailed report was made at the 136th Meeting of the American Association of the Advancement of Science in Boston in December 1969. An official report by the Wing Intelligence Officer at Forbes AFB in reference to the UFO said:

 ... intercepted at approximately Meridian Mississippi, a signal  with the following characteristics: frequency 2995 MHz to 3000  MHz; pulse width of 2.0 microseconds; pulse repitition frequency  of 600 Hz; sweep rate of 4 rpm, vertical polarity ... Signal moved  rapidly up the DF scope indicating a rapidly moving signal source;  i.e. an airborne source ...

Paul Hill, in his book "Unconventional Flying Objects: a Scientific Analysis", does not provide any information about frequencies of EM emissions. He does provide a variety of anecdotal evidence relating to heat emissions, glowing colors, and radiation poisoning experienced by human observers. UFOs are variously also reported to emit an audible humming noise -- such as you might experience with the above craft utilizing a high energy pulse repetition rate of 600 Hz. 

There is also an interesting article published by the AIAA, which was presented at the 47th International Astronautical Congress, October 7-11, 1996 in Beijing. IAF Paper No. IAA-96-IAA.4.1.07, "An Electromagnetic Rocket Hyper-Light Stellar Drive", by Paul Murad, Aerospace Engineer and Senior Member AIAA, affiliated with the DOD.

The first paragraph of the abstract reads: "Virtues of electromagnetic propulsion are examined in light of recent data published about unusual aircraft." Murad discusses a variety of eye witness reports, and photographs of UFO sightings, and provides an overview of theories of possible EM propulsion techniques. 

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 12:13:38 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:04:35 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:01:08 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> Subject: Gyro ... and satellite station keeping Resent-Message-ID: <"PSq6c2.0.fp4.1xZtp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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	Dear Vo.,


	I need to speak with you or any of your associates who know about the sugjects in the header.   Experts.   Any help appreciated.   


					JHS

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 13:23:35 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:17:34 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Relativity and Gravity-AntiGravity Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:15:56 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"TbIXp3.0.SD2.Q_atp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 06:48 PM 7/29/97 +0000, Robert Stirniman wrote:

Thanks for the info, Robert. 2800 to 3000 Megahertz is just above the 2450 MHz microwave oven frequency. You don't suppose "they" were cooking dinner, do you?  :-)

Some of the early reports of UFOs around cars said that something "killed the engines". If you put that kind of UHF intensity around the ignition system wiring it should kill a spark ignition engine.

Regards,  Frederick

>Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>
>> No John, the 3.16 MHz pulse frequency isn't for induction heating. :-)
>
>It might be useful to look at data regarding the frequencies of EM 
>emissions from unusual aircraft. The following document exists.
>I don't have the document, or any other information about it. 
>Maybe someone has it, or knows a way to get it. 
>
>"Summary of Signature and Statistical Data RF, Unidentified Objects
>Observed During ICBM Missions", by C.R. Berndston, MIT Lincoln
>Laboratories, Contract # F19628-73-C-0002
>
>There is some sketchy information about EM emissions in the Handbook
>of Ufology, pages 106-109. Two cases are described:
>
>The first case is a UFO sighted by an Air Force B-47 over the Gulf
>of Mexico in 1957, and documented in the Condon Report. The UFO was 
>reported by the pilot to be as "big as a barn" with a "steady red glow", 
>flying at "speeds far greater than an airplane". The object emitted 
>electromagnetic radiation at a frequency of about 2800 MHz with 
>"startling intensity".
>
>The second case is a UFO encountered by a military aircraft equipped
>for electronic countermeasure missions. A detailed report was made at
>the 136th Meeting of the American Association of the Advancement of 
>Science in Boston in December 1969. An official report by the Wing
>Intelligence Officer at Forbes AFB in reference to the UFO said:
>
> ... intercepted at approximately Meridian Mississippi, a signal
> with the following characteristics: frequency 2995 MHz to 3000
> MHz; pulse width of 2.0 microseconds; pulse repitition frequency
> of 600 Hz; sweep rate of 4 rpm, vertical polarity ... Signal moved
> rapidly up the DF scope indicating a rapidly moving signal source;
> i.e. an airborne source ...
>
>Paul Hill, in his book "Unconventional Flying Objects: a Scientific
>Analysis", does not provide any information about frequencies of
>EM emissions. He does provide a variety of anecdotal evidence
>relating to heat emissions, glowing colors, and radiation poisoning 
>experienced by human observers. UFOs are variously also reported
>to emit an audible humming noise -- such as you might experience 
>with the above craft utilizing a high energy pulse repetition rate 
>of 600 Hz. 
>
>There is also an interesting article published by the AIAA, which was
>presented at the 47th International Astronautical Congress, October
>7-11, 1996 in Beijing. IAF Paper No. IAA-96-IAA.4.1.07, "An Electromagnetic
>Rocket Hyper-Light Stellar Drive", by Paul Murad, Aerospace Engineer 
>and Senior Member AIAA, affiliated with the DOD.
>
>The first paragraph of the abstract reads: "Virtues of electromagnetic
>propulsion are examined in light of recent data published about unusual
>aircraft." Murad discusses a variety of eye witness reports, and 
>photographs of UFO sightings, and provides an overview of theories of 
>possible EM propulsion techniques. 
>
>Regards,
>Robert Stirniman
>
>

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 13:39:45 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:31:01 -0700 X-Sender: revtec@postoffice.ptd.net (Unverified) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:35:53 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: jeff fink <revtec ptd.net>
Subject: Re: PAGD
References: <3.0.1.32.19970729083657.0073a594 postoffice.ptd.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"q8ob.0.FK3.3Cbtp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 07:08 AM 7/29/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Jeff,
>
>Tell more about your PAGD.
>
>Have you heard anything new about the Correa's and the
>Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharge device ?
>
>Tim
>
I sent the Correa's a fax last Nov. describing what I was doing.  I was told by an
acquaintence of theirs that they intended to reply, but they never did.  I have heard
nothing about them since the last mention in IE.

I have done little with my apparatus in the last few months as I ran out of ideas as to
what to try next.  The visual manifestations described by the Correa's have appeared in
my equipment and then some. I have succeded in producing great light shows including 
visual phenomena that truly defy description.  However, none of these efforts have
resulted in any apparent OU effects.  

I have two tubes, both of which having a larger internal volume than any reported by the 
Correas.  My construction method makes these large volumes easy and economical to build.
The cathodes and anodes are 1/2" thick aluminum plates. These are held in separation with
transparent cylinders sealed with "O" rings and vacuum grease.  The small tube is a 9"
dia. plexi cylinder 2-1/2 tall.  The other is 12" dia. by 4" tall glass.
Both are 1/2"
wall thickness.   The bottom plate is usually the cathode and the PAGD eruptions appear
on this surface.  I use a 600 vdc power supply and a refrigeration vacuum pump. It occured
to me that Black Light power must be using some similar apparatus in their experiments.  

I was curious to see how hydrogen would perform in the tube.  Short of renting a cylinder of
H I put a few drops of water on the Al cathode surface and started the vac and power supply.
I was hoping the H2O would dissociate with the O bonding to the Al.  The tube failed to
light off until all the H2O disappeared.  No unusual glows or eruptions occured. Rather than
dissociate it seems that all of the H2O emulsified in my vac oil.  

Since the Randall Mills process uses K as a catalist to form the hydrinos I was wondering if 
a few flakes of KOH in the PAGD tube would be interesting.


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 12:52:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:44:47 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:50:57 -0700
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net> Reply-To: rmforall@earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, wireless@rmii.com,
        letters csicop.org, editors@sciam.com, sarfatti@well.com,
        mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch,
        davidk suba.com, shellied@sage.dri.edu, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil,
        rfheeter princeton.net, rmills@blacklightpower.com,
        wrgood earthlink.net, danaustin@earthlink.net,
        yekim physics.purdue.edu, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil,
        rdeagleton csupomona.edu, perkins3@llnl.gov, harti@harti.com Subject: Liversage validation of thorium transmutation Resent-Message-ID: <"zNPyT1.0.qy7.iWatp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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<h1 align="center"><a name="3rd"></a>3rd Party Verification</h1>

<hr>

<p><font face="Arial">To Whom it may concern:</font></p>

<p><font face="Arial">My name is Robert Liversage. I have been asked by Mr. Stan Gleeson of The Cincinnati Group to perform a third party verification of a technology his organization has developed for the purpose of<em> transmutation of radioactive elements into non-radioactive elements.</em></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial">I was granted a Bachelor of Science in Honors Chemistry by the University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada in 1981. I was granted a Master of Science in Chemistry by the University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada in 1984. I have thirteen years experience in the field of analytical Chemistry, specializing in atomic spectroscopy. My experience, which is most pertinent to this validation process, is five years </font><font size="3" face="Arial">performing methods development and sample analyses on the Perkin Elmer/Sciex </font><font face="Arial">Elan 250 Inductively Coupled Plasma/Mass Spectrometer (ICP/MS) system. I was employed by Sciex, the company which manufactures the instrument, as their Applications Specialist for two and a half of the five years.</font></p>

<p><font face="Arial">ICP/IMS was the primary analytical technique used to perform the evaluation. The other technique employed was scintillation counting. A brief description of the types of information each technique provides will be discussed below. The value of using more than one analytical technique is that the results obtained from each should </font><font size="3" face="Arial">complement and substantiate the other. If transmutation is occurring, we can predict the types of <i>analytical evidence </i>we should obtain </font><font face="Arial">from each of the techniques used. If either technique produced data which is inconsistent with our expectations, it would raise doubts as to the validity of the transmutation process, and further investigation would be required. Conversely, if <em>both techniques yield the predicted results, the </em></font><font size="3" face="Arial"><em>combined data provides substantial proof that transmutation is occurring.</em></font></p>

<p><font size="3" face="Arial">The Perkin Elmer/Sciex Elan 250 was the ICP/MS system used to perform this evaluation. The program used to generate the data is called <i>total quant. </i></font><font face="Arial">The total quant program performs a quantitative elemental and isotopic analysis of approximately ninety five percent of the elements on the periodic table. In addition, if any non naturally occurring radioactive isotopes were synthesized by the transmutation process, they may also be detected. The Cincinnati Group chose to use a solution containing approximately 0.3 percent thorium nitrate plus a few drops of hydrochloric acid in double distilled water as their test sample. The solution was split. One portion was set aside, and the other portion was subjected to the reaction process. In order to discriminate between the elements present in the processed sample which are due to transmutation of thorium from those which may be due to ablation, leaching, and/or possible </font><font size="3" face="Arial">transmutation </font><font face="Arial">of the materials used to construct the reaction vessel, a blank was also prepared and subjected to the reaction process. The preparation blank contained a few drops of hydrochloric acid in double distilled water. The preparation blank was subjected to the same reaction parameters as the test solution. Consequently, <em>the only difference between the preparation blank run and the test sample run was the presence of thorium nitrate</em> in the test sample. If significant transmutation of thorium is occurring in The Cincinnati Groups reaction vessel, comparison of the </font><font size="3" face="Arial"><i>total quant </i></font><font face="Arial">results obtained for the before processed and after processed test solutions should show a substantial reduction in thorium concentration. Comparison of the preparation blank data and the after processed test solution should show a significant increase in concentration of one or more elements in the after processed solution. Elements which are not detected in the preparation blank at all may be observed in the after processed test solution. Finally, if quantitative transmutation of thorium is occurring, the analytical evidence may also include significant deviations from the natural isotopic abundance ratios for the elements which are present in the after processed sample due to transmutation. The isotopic ratios of elements in naturally occurring substances is considered to be a constant, and well defined. If fission of thorium is occurring, we might expect random fragmentation into lighter isotopes. Random fragmentation may yield altered isotopic abundance ratios.
Altered isotopic abundance ratios would be an additional significant indication that transmutation has occurred.</font></p>

<p><font face="Arial"><em>Comparison of the processed test solution with the unprocessed test solution data showed that </em></font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial"><em>80%</em></font><font face="Arial"><em> of the thorium placed in the reaction cell had undergone transmutation.</em> Comparison of the cell blank data with the processed test sample data indicated that significant quantities of titanium and copper had been produced. The concentration of titanium in the processed sample was 10 times greater than the copper concentration. In addition, significantly altered isotopic ratios were observed for both elements. Copper has two isotopes at mass 63 and mass 65. The natural abundance ratio of mass 65 to 63 is </font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial">0.45.</font><font face="Arial"> The ratio observed in the processed sample was </font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial">8.2.</font><font face="Arial"> This represents an</font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial"> 1800 percent deviation </font><font face="Arial">from the natural abundance ratio. Titanium has five isotopes. The isotope at mass 48 is, naturally, the most abundant. Three of the four minor isotopes produced an isotopic ratio, with respect to the mass 48 isotope, which was equivalent to the natural abundance ratio. However, the mass 49 isotope produced a mass 49 to 48 </font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial">ratio of 0.42.</font><font face="Arial"> The natural abundance ratio is </font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial">0.075.</font><font face="Arial"> This represents a </font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial">deviation from the natural abundance ratio of 560 percent.</font></p>

<p><font face="Arial">To further substantiate the validity of the ICP/IMS data, a comparison of the </font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial">quantity of thorium</font><font face="Arial"> which had been transmuted to the </font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial">quantity of titanium and copper</font><font face="Arial"> which had been produced, was performed. The quantitative analysis of the data indicated that the</font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial"> amount of thorium</font><font face="Arial"> which had undergone transmutation was</font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial"> </font><font color="#FF0000" face="Arial">equivalent to the amount of titanium plus copper</font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial"> </font><font face="Arial">which had been formed, within experimental error.</font></p>

<p><font face="Arial">Scintillation counting was performed on the before processed and after processed test solutions to verify the ICP/IMS results, which indicated that a significant percentage of the thorium placed in the reaction vessel had been transmuted

into non-radioactive isotopes. </font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial">All of the copper and titanium</font><font face="Arial"> isotopes observed in the after processed test solution ICP/MS data </font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial">are non-radioactive.</font><font face="Arial"> The scintillation counter used for the analysis was a RM-60 Micro Roentgen Radiation Monitor. The counter was connected to a Compudyne computer. Equivalent amounts of before processed and after processed test solution were taken to dryness in plastic weighing boats. The scintillation counter was placed at exactly the same height, directly over the weighing boats, for both tests. The residues were then counted for 90 minutes. The results obtained indicated that a </font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial">72 percent reduction of thorium </font><font face="Arial">had occurred.</font></p>

<p><font face="Arial">After extraction of the processed sample, the reaction vessel was taken apart and all of the pieces of the vessel were individually analyzed by a scintillation counter to ensure that a complete extraction of the thorium had occurred. </font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial">All of the parts of the vessel produced count rates equivalent to normal background count rates</font><font face="Arial">, which indicated that the thorium was completely extracted.</font></p>

<p><font face="Arial">My conclusion is that the data generated by both of the analytical techniques used to evaluate The Cincinnati Group's process indicate</font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial"><em> that significant transmutation of</em></font><font face="Arial"> </font><font color="#0080FF" face="Arial"><em>thorium is occurring in their reaction vessel.</em></font><font face="Arial"> All of the data generated from both of the analytical techniques employed produced the anticipated results.</font></p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p><font face="Arial">Robert R. Liversage, M.S.</font></p>

<p><font face="Arial">Inorganic Section Manager</font></p>

<p><font face="Arial">Data Chem Laboratories</font></p>

<p><a href="index.htm#Return to Home Page">Home Page</a></p> </body>
</html>
X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 14:06:33 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: 29 Jul 97 16:51:53 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Liversage report reformatted
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To: Vortex

Rmforall lifted this from the Cincinatti Group website [http:web.gcis.net/cincygrp/3rtemp.htm#3rd] and posted it here in HMTL binary format. Here it is in plain ASCII, reformatted in neat paragraphs. The HMTL version did not seem to have any subscripts or other critical formatting.



3rd Party Verification


To Whom it may concern:

My name is Robert Liversage. I have been asked by Mr. Stan Gleeson of The Cincinnati Group to perform a third party verification of a technology his organization has developed for the purpose of transmutation of radioactive elements into non-radioactive elements.

I was granted a Bachelor of Science in Honors Chemistry by the University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada in 1981. I was granted a Master of Science in Chemistry by the University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada in 1984. I have thirteen years experience in the field of analytical Chemistry, specializing in atomic spectroscopy. My experience, which is most pertinent to this validation process, is five years performing methods development and sample analyses on the Perkin Elmer/Sciex Elan 250 Inductively Coupled Plasma/Mass Spectrometer (ICP/MS) system. I was employed by Sciex, the company which manufactures the instrument, as their Applications Specialist for two and a half of the five years.

ICP/IMS was the primary analytical technique used to perform the evaluation.
The other technique employed was scintillation counting. A brief description of the types of information each technique provides will be discussed below.
The value of using more than one analytical technique is that the results obtained from each should complement and substantiate the other. If transmutation is occurring, we can predict the types of analytical evidence we should obtain from each of the techniques used. If either technique produced data which is inconsistent with our expectations, it would raise doubts as to the validity of the transmutation process, and further investigation would be required. Conversely, if both techniques yield the predicted results, the combined data provides substantial proof that transmutation is occurring.

The Perkin Elmer/Sciex Elan 250 was the ICP/MS system used to perform this evaluation. The program used to generate the data is called total quant. The total quant program performs a quantitative elemental and isotopic analysis of approximately ninety five percent of the elements on the periodic table. In addition, if any non naturally occurring radioactive isotopes were synthesized by the transmutation process, they may also be detected. The Cincinnati Group chose to use a solution containing approximately 0.3 percent thorium nitrate plus a few drops of hydrochloric acid in double distilled water as their test sample. The solution was split. One portion was set aside, and the other portion was subjected to the reaction process. In order to discriminate between the elements present in the processed sample which are due to transmutation of thorium from those which may be due to ablation, leaching, and/or possible transmutation of the materials used to construct the reaction vessel, a blank was also prepared and subjected to the reaction process. The preparation blank contained a few drops of hydrochloric acid in double distilled water. The preparation blank was subjected to the same reaction parameters as the test solution. Consequently, the only difference between the preparation blank run and the test sample run was the presence of thorium nitrate in the test sample. If significant transmutation of thorium is occurring in The Cincinnati Groups reaction vessel, comparison of the total quant results obtained for the before processed and after processed test solutions should show a substantial reduction in thorium concentration.
Comparison of the preparation blank data and the after processed test solution should show a significant increase in concentration of one or more elements in the after processed solution. Elements which are not detected in the preparation blank at all may be observed in the after processed test solution.
Finally, if quantitative transmutation of thorium is occurring, the analytical evidence may also include significant deviations from the natural isotopic abundance ratios for the elements which are present in the after processed sample due to transmutation. The isotopic ratios of elements in naturally occurring substances is considered to be a constant, and well defined. If fission of thorium is occurring, we might expect random fragmentation into lighter isotopes. Random fragmentation may yield altered isotopic abundance ratios. Altered isotopic abundance ratios would be an additional significant indication that transmutation has occurred.

Comparison of the processed test solution with the unprocessed test solution data showed that 80% of the thorium placed in the reaction cell had undergone transmutation. Comparison of the cell blank data with the processed test sample data indicated that significant quantities of titanium and copper had been produced. The concentration of titanium in the processed sample was 10 times greater than the copper concentration. In addition, significantly altered isotopic ratios were observed for both elements. Copper has two isotopes at mass 63 and mass 65. The natural abundance ratio of mass 65 to 63 is 0.45. The ratio observed in the processed sample was 8.2. This represents an 1800 percent deviation from the natural abundance ratio. Titanium has five isotopes. The isotope at mass 48 is, naturally, the most abundant. Three of the four minor isotopes produced an isotopic ratio, with respect to the mass 48 isotope, which was equivalent to the natural abundance ratio. However, the mass 49 isotope produced a mass 49 to 48 ratio of 0.42. The natural abundance ratio is 0.075. This represents a deviation from the natural abundance ratio of 560 percent.

To further substantiate the validity of the ICP/IMS data, a comparison of the quantity of thorium which had been transmuted to the quantity of titanium and copper which had been produced, was performed. The quantitative analysis of the data indicated that the amount of thorium which had undergone transmutation was equivalent to the amount of titanium plus copper which had been formed, within experimental error.

Scintillation counting was performed on the before processed and after processed test solutions to verify the ICP/IMS results, which indicated that a significant percentage of the thorium placed in the reaction vessel had been transmuted into non-radioactive isotopes. All of the copper and titanium isotopes observed in the after processed test solution ICP/MS data are non-radioactive. The scintillation counter used for the analysis was a RM-60 Micro Roentgen Radiation Monitor. The counter was connected to a Compudyne computer. Equivalent amounts of before processed and after processed test solution were taken to dryness in plastic weighing boats. The scintillation counter was placed at exactly the same height, directly over the weighing boats, for both tests. The residues were then counted for 90 minutes. The results obtained indicated that a 72 percent reduction of thorium had occurred.

After extraction of the processed sample, the reaction vessel was taken apart and all of the pieces of the vessel were individually analyzed by a scintillation counter to ensure that a complete extraction of the thorium had occurred. All of the parts of the vessel produced count rates equivalent to normal background count rates, which indicated that the thorium was completely extracted.

My conclusion is that the data generated by both of the analytical techniques used to evaluate The Cincinnati Group's process indicate that significant transmutation of thorium is occurring in their reaction vessel. All of the data generated from both of the analytical techniques employed produced the anticipated results.



Robert R. Liversage, M.S.

Inorganic Section Manager

Data Chem Laboratories

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 14:12:14 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:05:05 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:56:27 -0500
References: <c=US%a=_%p=Rocketdyne%l=ROCKETDYNE/RDYNE/0007453E xch-rd-11a.rdyne.bna.boeing.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"aa7cC1.0.rk5.0ibtp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Jul 29,  1:32pm, Scudder, Henry J. wrote:

> The distance between the earth and the moon also hit a minimum sometime
> near that time. It  has been increasing slowly since then, do to tidal
> frictions both in the seas, and on land. This probably also had major
> effects on life as well.

Let's see, we have big icecaps, a possible magnetic flip, an asteroid strike, and close lunar proximity.  Hell of a coincidence, but nice recipe for disaster.

Remembered another info-nugget.  In addition to a predicted N-S flip of the earth's magnetic field, we are also due for a rare multiple planet alignment at the end of the century as well.  Could be pretty significant for the same reasons as your above observation.  I don't recall the specifics off the top of my head.  I'll see if I can find it tonight when I get home.


-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 13:31:56 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:28:36 -0700
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net> Reply-To: rmforall@earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
To: rmforall earthlink.net, danaustin@earthlink.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Verification of Thorium transmutation Resent-Message-ID: <"6XI7S3.0.PA3._5btp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Lifted from Cincinatti Group website
[http:web.gcis.net/cincygrp/3rtemp.htm#3rd]

3rd Party Verification



To Whom it may concern:

My name is Robert Liversage. I have been asked by Mr. Stan Gleeson of The Cincinnati
Group to perform a third party verification of a technology his organization has
developed for the purpose of transmutation of radioactive elements into non-radioactive elements.

I was granted a Bachelor of Science in Honors Chemistry by the University of Waterloo,
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada in 1981. I was granted a Master of Science in Chemistry by
the University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada in 1984. I have thirteen years
experience in the field of analytical Chemistry, specializing in atomic spectroscopy. My
experience, which is most pertinent to this validation process, is five years performing
methods development and sample analyses on the Perkin Elmer/Sciex Elan 250
Inductively Coupled Plasma/Mass Spectrometer (ICP/MS) system. I was employed by
Sciex, the company which manufactures the instrument, as their Applications Specialist
for two and a half of the five years.

ICP/IMS was the primary analytical technique used to perform the evaluation. The other
technique employed was scintillation counting. A brief description of the types of
information each technique provides will be discussed below. The value of using more
than one analytical technique is that the results obtained from each should complement
and substantiate the other. If transmutation is occurring, we can predict the types of
analytical evidence we should obtain from each of the techniques used.
If either
technique produced data which is inconsistent with our expectations, it would raise
doubts as to the validity of the transmutation process, and further investigation would be
required. Conversely, if both techniques yield the predicted results, the combined data
provides substantial proof that transmutation is occurring.

The Perkin Elmer/Sciex Elan 250 was the ICP/MS system used to perform this
evaluation. The program used to generate the data is called total quant.
The total quant
program performs a quantitative elemental and isotopic analysis of approximately ninety
five percent of the elements on the periodic table. In addition, if any non naturally
occurring radioactive isotopes were synthesized by the transmutation process, they may
also be detected. The Cincinnati Group chose to use a solution containing
approximately 0.3 percent thorium nitrate plus a few drops of hydrochloric acid in double
distilled water as their test sample. The solution was split. One portion was set aside,
and the other portion was subjected to the reaction process. In order to discriminate
between the elements present in the processed sample which are due to transmutation
of thorium from those which may be due to ablation, leaching, and/or possible
transmutation of the materials used to construct the reaction vessel, a blank was also
prepared and subjected to the reaction process. The preparation blank contained a few
drops of hydrochloric acid in double distilled water. The preparation blank was
subjected to the same reaction parameters as the test solution.
Consequently, the only
difference between the preparation blank run and the test sample run was the
presence of thorium nitrate in the test sample. If significant transmutation of thorium is
occurring in The Cincinnati Groups reaction vessel, comparison of the total quant
results obtained for the before processed and after processed test solutions should
show a substantial reduction in thorium concentration. Comparison of the preparation
blank data and the after processed test solution should show a significant increase in
concentration of one or more elements in the after processed solution.
Elements which
are not detected in the preparation blank at all may be observed in the after processed
test solution. Finally, if quantitative transmutation of thorium is occurring, the analytical
evidence may also include significant deviations from the natural isotopic abundance
ratios for the elements which are present in the after processed sample due to
transmutation. The isotopic ratios of elements in naturally occurring substances is
considered to be a constant, and well defined. If fission of thorium is occurring, we might
expect random fragmentation into lighter isotopes. Random fragmentation may yield
altered isotopic abundance ratios. Altered isotopic abundance ratios would be an
additional significant indication that transmutation has occurred.

Comparison of the processed test solution with the unprocessed test solution data
showed that 80% of the thorium placed in the reaction cell had undergone transmutation. Comparison of the cell blank data with the processed test sample data
indicated that significant quantities of titanium and copper had been produced. The
concentration of titanium in the processed sample was 10 times greater than the copper
concentration. In addition, significantly altered isotopic ratios were observed for both
elements. Copper has two isotopes at mass 63 and mass 65. The natural abundance
ratio of mass 65 to 63 is 0.45. The ratio observed in the processed sample was 8.2.
This represents an 1800 percent deviation from the natural abundance ratio. Titanium
has five isotopes. The isotope at mass 48 is, naturally, the most abundant. Three of the
four minor isotopes produced an isotopic ratio, with respect to the mass 48 isotope,
which was equivalent to the natural abundance ratio. However, the mass 49 isotope
produced a mass 49 to 48 ratio of 0.42. The natural abundance ratio is 0.075. This
represents a deviation from the natural abundance ratio of 560 percent.

To further substantiate the validity of the ICP/IMS data, a comparison of the quantity of
thorium which had been transmuted to the quantity of titanium and copper which had
been produced, was performed. The quantitative analysis of the data indicated that the
amount of thorium which had undergone transmutation was equivalent to the amount of
titanium plus copper which had been formed, within experimental error.

Scintillation counting was performed on the before processed and after processed test
solutions to verify the ICP/IMS results, which indicated that a significant percentage of
the thorium placed in the reaction vessel had been transmuted into non-radioactive
isotopes. All of the copper and titanium isotopes observed in the after processed test
solution ICP/MS data are non-radioactive. The scintillation counter used for the analysis
was a RM-60 Micro Roentgen Radiation Monitor. The counter was connected to a
Compudyne computer. Equivalent amounts of before processed and after processed
test solution were taken to dryness in plastic weighing boats. The scintillation counter
was placed at exactly the same height, directly over the weighing boats, for both tests.
The residues were then counted for 90 minutes. The results obtained indicated that a 72
percent reduction of thorium had occurred.

After extraction of the processed sample, the reaction vessel was taken apart and all of
the pieces of the vessel were individually analyzed by a scintillation counter to ensure
that a complete extraction of the thorium had occurred. All of the parts of the vessel
produced count rates equivalent to normal background count rates, which indicated that
the thorium was completely extracted.

My conclusion is that the data generated by both of the analytical techniques used to
evaluate The Cincinnati Group's process indicate that significant transmutation of
thorium is occurring in their reaction vessel. All of the data generated from both of the
analytical techniques employed produced the anticipated results.

 

 

Robert R. Liversage, M.S.

Inorganic Section Manager

Data Chem Laboratories

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 15:19:35 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:12:49 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:12:39 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com> From: Scott Little <little@eden.com>
Subject: Re: Liversage report reformatted Resent-Message-ID: <"rCZpH2.0.Ck.Whctp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 16:51 7/29/97 EDT, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Here it is in plain ASCII, reformatted in neat paragraphs.

Thanks, Jed...perfectly readable on this end.


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 15:46:34 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:40:08 -0700 From: VCockeram@aol.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:39:32 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Blacklight Power Reply
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V's,

Scott Little at Earthtech requested info on BLP.
 
<info follows>
from the BLP website:

Technology Development and Validation
The Company’s experimental work to date has been corroborated by research teams at three leading U.S. research universities; five national laboratories in the U.S. and Canada; and by corporate laboratories in the U.S. and Japan.
The Company has formed a Scientific Advisory Board, including full-time science and engineering faculty of Harvard, MIT, Penn State, Lehigh, Franklin & Marshall College, Georgetown, Oregon Graduate Institute of Science & Technology, and INP-Greifswald (Germany), as well as doctorate-level staff of a major architectur-al-engineering firm. Among the Company’s research collaborations are Lehigh University, Pennsylvania State University, Thermacore, Inc., and the National Radio Astronomy Observatory.

Vince
Las Vegas Nevada

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 17:03:59 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:55:59 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:20:11 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson microtronics.com.au> Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
To: List Server Freenrg <freenrg-l eskimo.com> CC: List Server Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: More PMOD information
Resent-Message-ID: <"l9Vbf.0.CT6.DCetp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Hi All,

I have just updated my web site with a bit more info on the PMOD.

More to come.

-- 
Best Regards,
 Greg Watson

  Phone / PC Fax ...... 61 8 8270 2737
  E-mail .............. gwatson microtronics.com.au
  Home Page ........... Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 16:56:54 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:48:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: revtec@postoffice.ptd.net
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:52:17 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: jeff fink <revtec ptd.net>
Subject: Re: PAGD
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At 07:54 PM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I also have witnessed many interesting discharge phenomena
>in my attempts to investigate the PAGD.	
>
>


If you are able to get into your vacuum tube as easily as I am you may want to place a small collection of steel compression springs in the tube.
Stable ion jets form at peculiar places.  A piece of steel wool in the tube is also very interesting to observe.  Strange standing waves form at various conitions of operation.  I often backfill with argon since it seems to intensify most observable effects.



I hate to type, but as long as there is interest in and questions about my ionic doodling, I'll type.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 16:08:57 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:58:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "George Holz" <george@varisys.com> To: "vortex-L" <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: PAGD
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:54:40 -0400
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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I also have witnessed many interesting discharge phenomena in my attempts to investigate the PAGD. By using a threaded hole in an Al rod as the cathode at about 1 mmHg pressure, PAGD type discharges could be obtained in very small devices.
The combined field enhancement of the sharp thread edges and the hollow cathode effect enhance  PAGD breakdown relative to glow discharge mode. 

Unfortunately, like Jeff I have seen no evidence of more energy leaving the discharge than is stored in the initiating capacitor.

I believe the Blacklight Power work reported using potassium nitrate as the source of catalyst potassium vapor. Unfortunately, to obtain sufficient vapor pressure, temperatures of at least 300 C may be required for all surfaces in contact with the gas.
Perhaps it is possible to get some results though as the K+ ions will be pumped onto the cathode by the discharge and could maintain a significant concentration in that vicinity under the high energy ion bombardment of the discharge. It does not look promising enough to me to take chances with adding hydrogen backfill plumbing to the vacuum system.

George 	Holz	

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 18:45:15 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: <@snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: PAGD
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:36:46 -0400
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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Several people in the vortex community have made attempts to duplicate the Correa PAGD reactor. While spectacular displays are seen, evidence of the O/U performnace has been lacking. 

I have talked to Correa about these efforts and his patents. He maintains that the patents contain sufficient information to evoke the PAGD phenomenon, but one has to be skilled in a number of arts to do it, including vacuum technology and others. If one reads the story at his Web site, one finds that they stumbled on the phenomenon while pursuing x-ray and high vacuum technology, and worked their way back to the operating conditions outlined in the patents. 

The PAGD phenomenon requires large area cathodes, not points. Correa has used the aurora tube, which has a large cathode and point anode. PAGD is not an arc. When the conditions are right, the discharges repeat and self-limit, not going into the arc mode. The energy in the discharges are captured by the circuits given in the patents. 

As for mixing BLP with PAGD, these are two very different technologies with very different rationales. With BLP, the vapor phase cell depends on having a cloud of vaporized potassium carbonate mixed with atomic hydrogen to induce the catalytic reaction. It must be atomic hydrogen, not H2. Hydrogen combines explosively with oxygen as we all know, so great caution is required. Tossing some potassium hydroxide into a gas discharge cell doesn't do it. You don't want ionized hydrogen either. 

There is nothing new in the PAGD world. Correa is seeking development arrangements. 

Mike Carrell

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 19:22:33 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:07:14 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:01:41 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: Rich Murray <rmforall@earthlink.net> cc: Vortex-L@eskimo.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, wireless@rmii.com,
        letters csicop.org, editors@sciam.com, sarfatti@well.com,
        mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch,
        davidk suba.com, shellied@sage.dri.edu, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil,
        rfheeter princeton.net, rmills@blacklightpower.com,
        wrgood earthlink.net, danaustin@earthlink.net,
        yekim physics.purdue.edu, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil,
        rdeagleton csupomona.edu, perkins3@llnl.gov, harti@harti.com Subject: Re: Liversage validation of thorium transmutation Resent-Message-ID: <"_TuvW2.0.mq6.G7gtp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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	On remediation of radioactive materials.


	First, not on the subject of radioactivity:

notes or equivalent.  
	There are over 1,000 'macro' or  'Word' typ virulotus ses.   DO NOT open any document or template atttch. which is WS Work,  


	Ask send to re-send as        .txt.    

	On changing of radioactivity:

	The work of Wm. Barker has been reproduced.  This is a simple processs, a dry processs, does not require solutions or chemistry and it owrks.


			JHS

On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Rich Murray wrote:

> http://web.gcis.net/cincygrp/3rdtemp.htm#3rd
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 29 19:24:29 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:06:22 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: Rich Murray <rmforall@earthlink.net> cc: rmforall@earthlink.net, danaustin@earthlink.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Verification of Thorium transmutation Resent-Message-ID: <"igwDg1.0.O_4.SBgtp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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	How odes one get in touch wit Mr. Liversage?


				JHS

On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Rich Murray wrote:

> Lifted from Cincinatti Group website
> [http:web.gcis.net/cincygrp/3rtemp.htm#3rd]
> 
> 3rd Party Verification
> 
> 
> 
> To Whom it may concern:
> 
> My name is Robert Liversage. I have been asked by Mr. Stan Gleeson of
> The Cincinnati
> Group to perform a third party verification of a technology his
> organization has
> developed for the purpose of transmutation of radioactive elements into
> non-radioactive elements.
> 
> I was granted a Bachelor of Science in Honors Chemistry by the
> University of Waterloo,
> Waterloo, Ontario, Canada in 1981. I was granted a Master of Science in
> Chemistry by
> the University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada in 1984. I have
> thirteen years
> experience in the field of analytical Chemistry, specializing in atomic
> spectroscopy. My
> experience, which is most pertinent to this validation process, is five
> years performing
> methods development and sample analyses on the Perkin Elmer/Sciex Elan
> 250
> Inductively Coupled Plasma/Mass Spectrometer (ICP/MS) system. I was
> employed by
> Sciex, the company which manufactures the instrument, as their
> Applications Specialist
> for two and a half of the five years.
> 
> ICP/IMS was the primary analytical technique used to perform the
> evaluation. The other
> technique employed was scintillation counting. A brief description of
> the types of
> information each technique provides will be discussed below. The value
> of using more
> than one analytical technique is that the results obtained from each
> should complement
> and substantiate the other. If transmutation is occurring, we can
> predict the types of
> analytical evidence we should obtain from each of the techniques used.
> If either
> technique produced data which is inconsistent with our expectations, it
> would raise
> doubts as to the validity of the transmutation process, and further
> investigation would be
> required. Conversely, if both techniques yield the predicted results,
> the combined data
> provides substantial proof that transmutation is occurring.
> 
> The Perkin Elmer/Sciex Elan 250 was the ICP/MS system used to perform
> this
> evaluation. The program used to generate the data is called total quant.
> The total quant
> program performs a quantitative elemental and isotopic analysis of
> approximately ninety
> five percent of the elements on the periodic table. In addition, if any
> non naturally
> occurring radioactive isotopes were synthesized by the transmutation
> process, they may
> also be detected. The Cincinnati Group chose to use a solution
> containing
> approximately 0.3 percent thorium nitrate plus a few drops of
> hydrochloric acid in double
> distilled water as their test sample. The solution was split. One
> portion was set aside,
> and the other portion was subjected to the reaction process. In order to
> discriminate
> between the elements present in the processed sample which are due to
> transmutation
> of thorium from those which may be due to ablation, leaching, and/or
> possible
> transmutation of the materials used to construct the reaction vessel, a
> blank was also
> prepared and subjected to the reaction process. The preparation blank
> contained a few
> drops of hydrochloric acid in double distilled water. The preparation
> blank was
> subjected to the same reaction parameters as the test solution.
> Consequently, the only
> difference between the preparation blank run and the test sample run was
> the
> presence of thorium nitrate in the test sample. If significant
> transmutation of thorium is
> occurring in The Cincinnati Groups reaction vessel, comparison of the
> total quant
> results obtained for the before processed and after processed test
> solutions should
> show a substantial reduction in thorium concentration. Comparison of the
> preparation
> blank data and the after processed test solution should show a
> significant increase in
> concentration of one or more elements in the after processed solution.
> Elements which
> are not detected in the preparation blank at all may be observed in the
> after processed
> test solution. Finally, if quantitative transmutation of thorium is
> occurring, the analytical
> evidence may also include significant deviations from the natural
> isotopic abundance
> ratios for the elements which are present in the after processed sample
> due to
> transmutation. The isotopic ratios of elements in naturally occurring
> substances is
> considered to be a constant, and well defined. If fission of thorium is
> occurring, we might
> expect random fragmentation into lighter isotopes. Random fragmentation
> may yield
> altered isotopic abundance ratios. Altered isotopic abundance ratios
> would be an
> additional significant indication that transmutation has occurred.
> 
> Comparison of the processed test solution with the unprocessed test
> solution data
> showed that 80% of the thorium placed in the reaction cell had undergone
> transmutation. Comparison of the cell blank data with the processed test
> sample data
> indicated that significant quantities of titanium and copper had been
> produced. The
> concentration of titanium in the processed sample was 10 times greater
> than the copper
> concentration. In addition, significantly altered isotopic ratios were
> observed for both
> elements. Copper has two isotopes at mass 63 and mass 65. The natural
> abundance
> ratio of mass 65 to 63 is 0.45. The ratio observed in the processed
> sample was 8.2.
> This represents an 1800 percent deviation from the natural abundance
> ratio. Titanium
> has five isotopes. The isotope at mass 48 is, naturally, the most
> abundant. Three of the
> four minor isotopes produced an isotopic ratio, with respect to the mass
> 48 isotope,
> which was equivalent to the natural abundance ratio. However, the mass
> 49 isotope
> produced a mass 49 to 48 ratio of 0.42. The natural abundance ratio is
> 0.075. This
> represents a deviation from the natural abundance ratio of 560 percent.
> 
> To further substantiate the validity of the ICP/IMS data, a comparison
> of the quantity of
> thorium which had been transmuted to the quantity of titanium and copper
> which had
> been produced, was performed. The quantitative analysis of the data
> indicated that the
> amount of thorium which had undergone transmutation was equivalent to
> the amount of
> titanium plus copper which had been formed, within experimental error.
> 
> Scintillation counting was performed on the before processed and after
> processed test
> solutions to verify the ICP/IMS results, which indicated that a
> significant percentage of
> the thorium placed in the reaction vessel had been transmuted into
> non-radioactive
> isotopes. All of the copper and titanium isotopes observed in the after
> processed test
> solution ICP/MS data are non-radioactive. The scintillation counter used
> for the analysis
> was a RM-60 Micro Roentgen Radiation Monitor. The counter was connected
> to a
> Compudyne computer. Equivalent amounts of before processed and after
> processed
> test solution were taken to dryness in plastic weighing boats. The
> scintillation counter
> was placed at exactly the same height, directly over the weighing boats,
> for both tests.
> The residues were then counted for 90 minutes. The results obtained
> indicated that a 72
> percent reduction of thorium had occurred.
> 
> After extraction of the processed sample, the reaction vessel was taken
> apart and all of
> the pieces of the vessel were individually analyzed by a scintillation
> counter to ensure
> that a complete extraction of the thorium had occurred. All of the parts
> of the vessel
> produced count rates equivalent to normal background count rates, which
> indicated that
> the thorium was completely extracted.
> 
> My conclusion is that the data generated by both of the analytical
> techniques used to
> evaluate The Cincinnati Group's process indicate that significant
> transmutation of
> thorium is occurring in their reaction vessel. All of the data generated
> from both of the
> analytical techniques employed produced the anticipated results.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Robert R. Liversage, M.S.
> 
> Inorganic Section Manager
> 
> Data Chem Laboratories
> 
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 30 00:46:00 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:36:00 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net> cc: danaustin@earthlink.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Verification of Thorium transmutation Resent-Message-ID: <"3J0U9.0.IA4.2tktp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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no snip (see bottom)

On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Rich Murray wrote:

> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:28:36 -0700
> From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
> To: rmforall earthlink.net, danaustin@earthlink.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com
> Subject: Verification of Thorium transmutation
> Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:24:40 -0700 (PDT)
> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
> 
> Lifted from Cincinatti Group website
> [http:web.gcis.net/cincygrp/3rtemp.htm#3rd]
> 
> 3rd Party Verification
> 
> 
> 
> To Whom it may concern:
> 
> My name is Robert Liversage. I have been asked by Mr. Stan Gleeson of
> The Cincinnati
> Group to perform a third party verification of a technology his
> organization has
> developed for the purpose of transmutation of radioactive elements into
> non-radioactive elements.
> 
> I was granted a Bachelor of Science in Honors Chemistry by the
> University of Waterloo,
> Waterloo, Ontario, Canada in 1981. I was granted a Master of Science in
> Chemistry by
> the University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada in 1984. I have
> thirteen years
> experience in the field of analytical Chemistry, specializing in atomic
> spectroscopy. My
> experience, which is most pertinent to this validation process, is five
> years performing
> methods development and sample analyses on the Perkin Elmer/Sciex Elan
> 250
> Inductively Coupled Plasma/Mass Spectrometer (ICP/MS) system. I was
> employed by
> Sciex, the company which manufactures the instrument, as their
> Applications Specialist
> for two and a half of the five years.
> 
> ICP/IMS was the primary analytical technique used to perform the
> evaluation. The other
> technique employed was scintillation counting. A brief description of
> the types of
> information each technique provides will be discussed below. The value
> of using more
> than one analytical technique is that the results obtained from each
> should complement
> and substantiate the other. If transmutation is occurring, we can
> predict the types of
> analytical evidence we should obtain from each of the techniques used.
> If either
> technique produced data which is inconsistent with our expectations, it
> would raise
> doubts as to the validity of the transmutation process, and further
> investigation would be
> required. Conversely, if both techniques yield the predicted results,
> the combined data
> provides substantial proof that transmutation is occurring.
> 
> The Perkin Elmer/Sciex Elan 250 was the ICP/MS system used to perform
> this
> evaluation. The program used to generate the data is called total quant.
> The total quant
> program performs a quantitative elemental and isotopic analysis of
> approximately ninety
> five percent of the elements on the periodic table. In addition, if any
> non naturally
> occurring radioactive isotopes were synthesized by the transmutation
> process, they may
> also be detected. The Cincinnati Group chose to use a solution
> containing
> approximately 0.3 percent thorium nitrate plus a few drops of
> hydrochloric acid in double
> distilled water as their test sample. The solution was split. One
> portion was set aside,
> and the other portion was subjected to the reaction process. In order to
> discriminate
> between the elements present in the processed sample which are due to
> transmutation
> of thorium from those which may be due to ablation, leaching, and/or
> possible
> transmutation of the materials used to construct the reaction vessel, a
> blank was also
> prepared and subjected to the reaction process. The preparation blank
> contained a few
> drops of hydrochloric acid in double distilled water. The preparation
> blank was
> subjected to the same reaction parameters as the test solution.
> Consequently, the only
> difference between the preparation blank run and the test sample run was
> the
> presence of thorium nitrate in the test sample. If significant
> transmutation of thorium is
> occurring in The Cincinnati Groups reaction vessel, comparison of the
> total quant
> results obtained for the before processed and after processed test
> solutions should
> show a substantial reduction in thorium concentration. Comparison of the
> preparation
> blank data and the after processed test solution should show a
> significant increase in
> concentration of one or more elements in the after processed solution.
> Elements which
> are not detected in the preparation blank at all may be observed in the
> after processed
> test solution. Finally, if quantitative transmutation of thorium is
> occurring, the analytical
> evidence may also include significant deviations from the natural
> isotopic abundance
> ratios for the elements which are present in the after processed sample
> due to
> transmutation. The isotopic ratios of elements in naturally occurring
> substances is
> considered to be a constant, and well defined. If fission of thorium is
> occurring, we might
> expect random fragmentation into lighter isotopes. Random fragmentation
> may yield
> altered isotopic abundance ratios. Altered isotopic abundance ratios
> would be an
> additional significant indication that transmutation has occurred.
> 
> Comparison of the processed test solution with the unprocessed test
> solution data
> showed that 80% of the thorium placed in the reaction cell had undergone
> transmutation. Comparison of the cell blank data with the processed test
> sample data
> indicated that significant quantities of titanium and copper had been
> produced. The
> concentration of titanium in the processed sample was 10 times greater
> than the copper
> concentration. In addition, significantly altered isotopic ratios were
> observed for both
> elements. Copper has two isotopes at mass 63 and mass 65. The natural
> abundance
> ratio of mass 65 to 63 is 0.45. The ratio observed in the processed
> sample was 8.2.
> This represents an 1800 percent deviation from the natural abundance
> ratio. Titanium
> has five isotopes. The isotope at mass 48 is, naturally, the most
> abundant. Three of the
> four minor isotopes produced an isotopic ratio, with respect to the mass
> 48 isotope,
> which was equivalent to the natural abundance ratio. However, the mass
> 49 isotope
> produced a mass 49 to 48 ratio of 0.42. The natural abundance ratio is
> 0.075. This
> represents a deviation from the natural abundance ratio of 560 percent.
> 
> To further substantiate the validity of the ICP/IMS data, a comparison
> of the quantity of
> thorium which had been transmuted to the quantity of titanium and copper
> which had
> been produced, was performed. The quantitative analysis of the data
> indicated that the
> amount of thorium which had undergone transmutation was equivalent to
> the amount of
> titanium plus copper which had been formed, within experimental error.
> 
> Scintillation counting was performed on the before processed and after
> processed test
> solutions to verify the ICP/IMS results, which indicated that a
> significant percentage of
> the thorium placed in the reaction vessel had been transmuted into
> non-radioactive
> isotopes. All of the copper and titanium isotopes observed in the after
> processed test
> solution ICP/MS data are non-radioactive. The scintillation counter used
> for the analysis
> was a RM-60 Micro Roentgen Radiation Monitor. The counter was connected
> to a
> Compudyne computer. Equivalent amounts of before processed and after
> processed
> test solution were taken to dryness in plastic weighing boats. The
> scintillation counter
> was placed at exactly the same height, directly over the weighing boats,
> for both tests.
> The residues were then counted for 90 minutes. The results obtained
> indicated that a 72
> percent reduction of thorium had occurred.
> 
> After extraction of the processed sample, the reaction vessel was taken
> apart and all of
> the pieces of the vessel were individually analyzed by a scintillation
> counter to ensure
> that a complete extraction of the thorium had occurred. All of the parts
> of the vessel
> produced count rates equivalent to normal background count rates, which
> indicated that
> the thorium was completely extracted.
> 
> My conclusion is that the data generated by both of the analytical
> techniques used to
> evaluate The Cincinnati Group's process indicate that significant
> transmutation of
> thorium is occurring in their reaction vessel. All of the data generated
> from both of the
> analytical techniques employed produced the anticipated results.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Robert R. Liversage, M.S.
> 
> Inorganic Section Manager
> 
> Data Chem Laboratories
> 
> 
Do any of you 'ol timers remember a program called "SIMP" that took all relevant words as nouns and pronouns /verbs etc.. that could endlessly produce the number of pages requested to > output " good program!, to produce a mailing 
like this ??   (works for the IRS however)  ..Robert.. Talk to us!!


se
1 of the last Cowboys in Colorado,'the End of 100 year song' -------------------------------------------------------.edu+ back to basic(s)     Steve Ekwall           POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com    1.303.293.2FAX         wk.1.800.798.1100

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 30 01:49:36 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:45:10 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Relativity and Gravity-AntiGravity Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:44:34 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"zHCPn2.0.ZK5.Lyltp" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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To Vortex:

Robert Stirniman cited literature that indicates EM radiation from "unidentified aircraft" in the 2800 to 3000 Megahertz (approx. 10 centimeter wavelength)range.

If  3.16 MHz pulses on a "flat line" will simulate the "dilated current" from the fundamental particles of matter that produce the gravitational field, a pulse frequency three orders of magnitude times this should be equivalent to having a pair of conductors in parallel, one  carrying a current of N amperes and the other carrying a current of  1000*N amperes in the same direction, thus creating a large attractive force between them.

Conversely, with pulses of opposing polarity (simulated opposite charge) there should be comparable repelling (antigravity) forces set up between a craft and the Earth or any other mass.

This is a practical range of frequencies to use from an "engineering" standpoint,and should create a large "leakage" of EM radiation from the terminating "resistors-lights" used on the pulsed line.

Regards,    Frederick


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 30 20:39:33 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:30:40 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net References: <l03102800b000187c6add@[207.147.205.189]>  <970725225053_2059481044@emout05.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:28:48 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"O6htG2.0.Qf1.TR0up"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Robert -

   >  What crust?  In Hawaii you live on piles of
   >  volcanic outflow build directly on the abyssal
   >  ocean floor.

It's a thin crust, but it's the crust. Not part of the mantle.

   >  Second, of course if the ocean floor moved with
   >  respect to the plume, oyu would expect the
   >  Hawiian islands to be a chain, not just one big
   >  island.  ;-)

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say there. The ocean floor moves, and the cookie-cutter/conveyer belt floor has a chain of islands and seamounts stretching from Loiki off the Big Island to the Kamchatka peninsula. 200 million years worth of cookie production, something like that. There *is* a big discontinuity out there which indicates that either the sea floor direction changed, or the crust did shift. Otherwise, it's pretty straight. Of course, the time scale for the rate of movement could be off, but this scale is not that ambiguous from what I understand, due to the fact it's based on lava flow rates as well as just floor movement. So that discontinuity is millions of years off the proposed ~7500-10000 year-ago event relating to Atlantis/ice-ages/etc, and many millions too young for the big Cambrian shift. Even if the floor ran way faster than it seems to now, there still has to be the time to build flows to the height of the islands and mountains.

   >  Finally, the plume under Hawaii may be the
   >  dominant flow in the upper mantle when it
   >  comes to continental drift.

That's what I was getting at. If there had been any major shifts between the crust and the mantle during those millions of years, there'd be more or larger discontinuities in the chain of mountains. Maybe the whole planet rolls over guts and all. Or maybe Hawaii has been near the axis of the crustal shifts (making our islands belly-button fuzz on the navel of the world?). But I would think any big crustal shell movements during the production of the visible island/seamount chain ought to show show through due to the mantle plume's rather consistent position.

It looks to me like they're going to have to do a little work to get any crustal pole-shifts occuring between the Cambrian (or the Permian or whenever) and last Tuesday past the Hawaiian plume situation.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 30 20:49:05 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:45:52 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net References: <33DA1419.515BF25E@ro.com>
 <970725225053_2059481044 emout05.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:44:18 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"IXnMA3.0.tA3.lf0up"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Robert -

   >  Wrong!  The angular momentum has to be
   >  conserved during any drift.

I thought spheres, and presumably spherical shells, had little or no inherent stability while rotating. As for the oblateness of the planet, well, that's probably about like a slight bulge on a rotating sphere of jello. Sounds like a fun experiment for a spacecraft crew sometime; I can't imagine whether or not such a bulge on a softly elastic sphere would really add the stability that a similar bulge would add when it's an integral part of a rigid object.

I was thinking of a little spherical top painted as a globe. It would disappoint terribly as a top of course, but that's the point. Pulling one over on the rug-rats in that case would just be a bonus.<g> Market it (to adults) as "The Worlds Scariest Toy", or something like that. I think Tinsley probably already has a claim on this idea.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 30 05:28:22 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:13:41 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:09:06 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu> To: Rich Murray <rmforall@earthlink.net> cc: Vortex-L@eskimo.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, wireless@rmii.com,
        letters csicop.org, editors@sciam.com, sarfatti@well.com,
        mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch,
        davidk suba.com, shellied@sage.dri.edu, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil,
        rfheeter princeton.net, rmills@blacklightpower.com,
        wrgood earthlink.net, danaustin@earthlink.net,
        yekim physics.purdue.edu, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil,
        rdeagleton csupomona.edu, perkins3@llnl.gov, harti@harti.com Subject: +++++: Liversage   ++++ validation of thorium transmutation Resent-Message-ID: <"jariM1.0.ju7.q_otp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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`How do we get in touch with Mr. Liversage?

				JHS

On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Rich Murray wrote:

> http://web.gcis.net/cincygrp/3rdtemp.htm#3rd
> 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 30 06:45:54 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Intended-For: knuke@aa.net
Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: 30 Jul 97 09:33:10 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Stop quoting everything!
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To: Vortex

Will contributors to this forum please review Rule 4, established by our forum host Bill Beaty:

4. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: when you reply to a message DON'T include the ENTIRE message in your reply.  Always edit it a bit and delete something.  The entire message should only be included if: (A) you are replying to a message that is many days old, or (B) you are doing a point-by-point reply to many parts of a message.  Many vortex users must pay by the kilobyte for receiving message traffic, and large amounts of redundant messages are irritating and expensive. 
So, when including a quoted message in your reply, ALWAYS DELETE SOMETHING, the more the better.

Please stop wasting bandwidth with by quoting long messages with ">" marks, and then adding brief comments like "I agree."

- Jed

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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Bockris address
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To: Vortex

Prof. Bockris has retired from Texas A&M University. His address is now:

Prof. John O'M Bockris
4973 Afton Oaks Drive
College Station, TX 77845

- Jed

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 30 07:01:37 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:55:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper@aol.com
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:53:28 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Baked Cathodes
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In his post of July 28, 1997, Scott Little asked, "If the baking is done in air, wouldn't you expect the residual C to be converted to CO2 which would then leave the surface?"

The baking wasn't done in air.  The nickel coil cathodes were baked in 95% argon 5% hydrogen at atmospheric pressure:  see Shkedi, et al., "Calorimetry, Excess Heat, and Faraday Efficiency in Ni-H2O Electrolytic Cells," Fusion Technology, Vol. 28 (November 1995), pp. 1720-1731, at p. 1722 col. 1.

Scott, your question suggests either that you didn't read the original article, or that you didn't recheck it before posting the question, which nevertheless was one to which I'd like to know the answer, too.  So just out of curiosity, I'll second your question:  if the baking had been done in air, would that have converted the residual C to CO2?

The university library here doesn't carry Fusion Technology, because there isn't any hot fusion work being done in the area, so I didn't see the Shkedi article right away, either; but you're in Austin, TX.  Isn't some hot fusion work being done in that area?  Does one of the libraries there carry Fusion Technology?

Tom Stolper

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 30 15:06:53 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:59:30 -0700 X-Sender: eachus@spectre.mitre.org
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:01:27 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org> Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com
References: <970725225053_2059481044 emout05.mail.aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"8txkf1.0.FH4.1bxtp"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 10:13 AM 7/26/97 -0500, Patrick V. Reavis wrote: 
> If the Earth's crust were to shift, would the oceans not "lag' behind? I can > envision the oceans scouring the continents clean of all life. A flood of > Biblical proportions? 
 
   If you talk to an oceanographer, you will find that you don't need continental drift to get the oceans and the land out of sync.  The tides do that quite nicely.  Also, oceanographers talk about the "World Current."  It splits and joins, but basically all of the ocean currents are connected.  What happens if they are blocked?  During the last Ice Age the passage between Antartica and South America was closed.  Look at the result on any map--the continents got treated like taffy.

   Back to the subject of continental slippage, if it is true that the slippage is fast, then we should expect the heaviest Continental bulges to be on or very near the equator.  Hmmm...  That would be the Himalayas and the Andes.  They are close enough to antipodal that a third plateau could get pulled in, Kiliminjaro?  (But the Himalayas are substantially above the equator, so either the Altaplano dominates, or the Himalayas are too fresh, or the motion of India into Asia dominates the trend towards the equator...)  In any case, nice theory, but much more evidence is needed...

   Also, the crustal slippage was offered as an explanation of the fact that the planetary poles are not prependicular to the orbital plane.  Wrong!  The angular momentum has to be conserved during any drift.  The poles will still point to the same point in the sky, they will just be relocated. The poles are probably askew due to meteor/comet impacts.


                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 30 23:07:07 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:00:42 -0700 X-Intended-For: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Mandeville <mwm aa.net>
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"-gsTK1.0.ZG2.8e2up" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 03:56 PM 7/29/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On Jul 29,  1:32pm, Scudder, Henry J. wrote:
>
>> The distance between the earth and the moon also hit a minimum sometime
>> near that time. It  has been increasing slowly since then, do to tidal
>> frictions both in the seas, and on land. This probably also had major
>> effects on life as well.
>
>Let's see, we have big icecaps, a possible magnetic flip, an asteroid strike,
>and close lunar proximity.  Hell of a coincidence, but nice recipe for
>disaster.
>
>Remembered another info-nugget.  In addition to a predicted N-S flip of the
>earth's magnetic field, we are also due for a rare multiple planet alignment at
>the end of the century as well.  Could be pretty significant for the same
>reasons as your above observation.  I don't recall the specifics off the top of
>my head.  I'll see if I can find it tonight when I get home.
>
>
>-- 
>John E. Steck 
>Prototype Tooling
>Motorola Inc.
>
>

Don't bother spending much time on it.  I am doing it for you.  In about two weeks expect major download of a model for geo-mechanics.


Michael Wells Mandeville
"Return of the Phoenix" at http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/phoenix.html

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 30 15:21:13 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:14:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: eachus@spectre.mitre.org
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:15:27 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org> Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com
References: <970725225053_2059481044 emout05.mail.aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"hJhuf.0.ie.Kpxtp"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 11:17 AM 7/26/97 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote:

>The volcanoes here have always made me think the opposite. They seem to
>evolve from a fixed location below the crust. If the crust moved around so
>much, the "Hawaiian" volcanoes would be popping up in all kinds of
>different places, unless: we were near the axis of the polar rotations, or
>if the plume really isn't a mantle feature, but a crustal one. That second
>situation doesn't seem to make much sense, and the first one seems to be a
>remarkable coincidence if we're talking about a number of major events over
>many tens of millions of years.
 
     A few minor quibbles...

     What crust?  In Hawaii you live on piles of volcanic outflow build directly on the abyssal ocean floor.

     Second, of course if the ocean floor moved with respect to the plume, oyu would expect the Hawiian islands to be a chain, not just one big island.  ;-)

     The eroded seamounts at the other end of the chain from Big Island extend for thousands more miles--so the vent has moved about 1/4 of the way around the globe over a period of millions of years.  Right now the vent is beginning to build the next island in the chain south of Big Island, but it is not expected to break the surface for about 20,000 years.

     Finally, the plume under Hawaii may be the dominant flow in the upper mantle when it comes to continental drift.  Look at a globe sometime.  If Hawaii is toward you, basically all you see is water.  The continents are bunched on the other side of the globe.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 30 23:59:50 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:50:29 -0700 X-Intended-For: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Mandeville <mwm aa.net>
Subject: Gravity Vortex Tectonics
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G'norts Vort's

I have been silent on this list for the past six months whilst wandering through the netherlands of ancient history, Egypt, pyramids, hall of records, Hermetic doctrines, tracking down the rarely seen, but oft mentioned Phoenix.

Have come to many conclusions and my book is taking final shape.


Now I would like to begin a process, in about two weeks, of articulating here for the first time an entirely new model of the geo-mechanics of the earth.  To put it succinctly, geology is built entirely upon tautologies with little or no relationship to physics which actually works.  In short, geology as taught with stiff upper lips is a potpourri of nonesense.

The evidence of episodes of massive planetwide catastrophic events, which I call Major Tectonic Events, in the records, cultural artifacts, and memories of humanity is MASSIVE AND PERVASIVE, not to mention the geological record itself.

My objective here is not to debate this evidence. This is the wrong listserv. My objective here is to begin a process of articulating the how and the why.  I will start the process rolling with a general systems model of what I call Gravity Vortex Tectonics, which should be right up the alley of quite a few of you here on Vortex.

To make a long story very short, I am convinced that the model can predict both minor (earthquakes) and major tectonic events.  The reason geologists cannot predict these things at all is because they do not understand the physics of geo-mechanics.

Since I am not a mathematician I am not going to quantize the model.  Some of you here might care to do so and I welcome your particpation.  What I am going to provide is outline of the factors in the paradigm, the basic formulas, and the visualization of how it works. Some of the clues for this go to observations made several thousand years ago.  I am going to send that in chunks starting in about two weeks.

Before then, I have a request to make:

can anybody give me a source of tables for solar insolation by lattitude

i need the data for the equator and every ten degrees of lattitude north and south to and including the poles for every month of the year, ideally on the 21st of every month.

Best wishes,

oh, in case anyone wonders, I am not currently doing anything on the radioactivity transmutation front.  I am totally focused on my book.













 


Michael Wells Mandeville
"Return of the Phoenix" at http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/phoenix.html

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 30 20:25:21 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:21:27 -0400 (EDT) From: lewis edward <lewis3@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: Vortex <vortex-l mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Stop quoting everything!
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I agree.  

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 30 21:09:15 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:59:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Stop quoting everything!
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:56:26 +0000
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At 03:21 AM 7/31/97 +0000, lewis edward wrote:
>
>
>I agree.  
>
I agree too. But with what?   :-)

Regards,     Frederick




X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 30 21:02:22 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:57:04 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Rel;ativity and Gravity-AntiGravity Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:56:30 +0000
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To Vortex:

Painted into a corner? If you can create a "Synthetic" Gravity-AntiGravity Field to lift a craft off the Earth then you can also generate "Ancillary Fields" to repel incoming projectiles and also draw objects to the craft.

"Shields Up and Tractor Beam On"! Won't work against LASERs Though. :-)

Regards,   Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 01:36:16 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 01:26:42 -0700 X-Sender: david@bahnhof.se
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:25:53 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: David Jonsson <David Bahnhof.Se>
Subject: Stefan Marinov dead
Cc: gravitics1 aol.com
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I got this mail from "M.Twain" <none leland.stanford.edu>. It was mailed to many recipients. Too bad this man could not stand the pressure. Can someone write some last words for him and what he did? I don't know that much myself except that he proposed the same etherdrift as Silvertooth got and the COBE sattellite measurements of the background radiation showed.

David
----------
30 July 1997

World-friend,

I received word today, from Francisco Muller, that Stefan Marinov -- to my regret -- successfully suicided this week.

I never met Marinov, but had read of his previous self-immolation threats or attempts.  All for the purpose of bringing the truth to light; of the covert nature of world physics, and the truth of free 'energy', aenertia or aether.

Isn't it time we wiped the slate clean -- of the ruling mindset of deliberate lies, conformist media, selfish misdirection and criminal destruction?

We have precious little time,

Millennium Twain



X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 01:36:12 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 01:26:45 -0700 X-Sender: david@bahnhof.se
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:25:54 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: David Jonsson <David Bahnhof.Se>
Subject: Russian Conference: Cold Fusion and Transmutation of Nuclii Resent-Message-ID: <"njb7q2.0.Y72.3n4up" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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I got a mail from Russia today about a conference with the above title.
Mail <Sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su> for more info. From having been to one conference last year I can tell that there are a lot of different thinkers in Russia. 

David


David Jonsson  Phone +46-18-24 51 52           Fax +46-18-24 51 56 Uppsala        Cellular GSM +46-706-339487     E-mail David Bahnhof.se Sweden         Web: http://bahnhof.se/~david/  Postgiro 499 40 54-7

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 20:53:45 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:50:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net References: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>        "Re:  Scientists report radical shift of continents" (Jul 30"  <l03102800b000187c6add@207.147.205.189>  <970725225053_2059481044@emout05.mail.aol.com>  <l03102800b005b13c78db@207.147.205.172> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:46:24 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"lUIjz2.0.eA.kpLup"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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John -

   >   Think of the plume as an established thin spot
   >  in the crust that habitually leaks.

That's one way to reconcile it. I was thinking maybe of an ancient impact that left enough reactive/radioactive stuff behind to keep the crustal wound from healing. I think the deep earth "pictures" from soundings from earthquakes and so forth as a way of probing the mantle do show the plume as a mantle feature. I don't know if that's right or even for sure if *I* have that right. But I think that's the way it is. Anyway, how would you know if it is just limited to a crust-only shift? Why should it be? Is it just because it's somehow easier to think of it that way than as a full-earth tumble? It shouldn't be if the total stability isn't much either way. I actually find it easier to comprehend the whole thing rolling against the vacuum of space and the slight stability from an elastic bulge on the equator than I do with the crust alone moving and dragging on what must be enormous net fluid viscous friction between the lower crust and mantle. That magma's kind of sticky, you know.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 11:38:29 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:35:28 -0700 X-Intended-For: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:37:12 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Mandeville <mwm aa.net>
Subject: Re: Gravity Vortex Tectonics
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At 11:31 AM 7/31/97 GMT, you wrote:
>On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:50:29 -0700, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote:
>      Dear Michael,
>I wish you great success with the new book!
>The flaws of the existing models of tectonics became evident  when
>I tried to study CF as the internal source of energy of Earth.
>For insolation data, try "alternative energy sources, solar"
>on the  <www.theriver.com> searching machine(s) or at 
><www.eren.doe.gov>; I remember to have seen the data when I wrote
>my course re. energy efficiency, based exclusively on Internet data.
>Glad to see you back,
>Peter
>-- 
>dr. Peter Gluck
>
>Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology         Fax:064-420042
>Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700           Tel:064-184037/144
>Cluj 5, 3400 Romania                                  Home: 064-174976
>E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro 
>
>

Thank you Dr. Gluck.  I appreciate your words. And the quick reference!
Michael Wells Mandeville
"Return of the Phoenix" at http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/phoenix.html

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 11:54:00 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:50:10 -0700 X-Intended-For: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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From: Michael Mandeville <mwm aa.net>
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"LlixA.0.3P2.XvDup" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 11:07 AM 7/31/97 -0600, you wrote:

> Does your liquid, in your liquid mantle, spin/"SLIP" faster or Slower
>than the crust/skin??
>since we're turning west to east, and centrifical force would hold out the
>skin/crust, Wouldn't ALL crustial DRIFT be going the "SAME DIRECTION".?? 
>Doesn't Jive with crustial Geo,I don't believe, this is the case with
>colliding continents isn't it? or are all land masses getting slammed on
>their west sides only?
>
>

no

moon pulls em in the other direction

it is the spin motion vs a counter rotating gravity vortex

that is the basis of the fundamental equations Michael Wells Mandeville
"Return of the Phoenix" at http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/phoenix.html

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 12:22:15 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:17:42 -0700 X-Intended-For: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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From: Michael Mandeville <mwm aa.net>
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of c Resent-Message-ID: <"JAujp.0.Zx3.KJEup" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 08:03 AM 7/31/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Robert,
>
>For some reason your text keeps coming through as binary attachments.
>
>As to conservation of angular momentum, it IS conserved if the whole
>planet tips over - this was covered by Gold in Nature in the 1950s.
>
>A perfect sphere has ZERO AXIAL STABILITY.  The slightest push will
>tip its axis of rotation.
>
>Of course, the Earth isn't a perfect sphere - not *quite*.
>
>Chris
>
>

actually the bulge at the equater is cited as one of the stabilizing factors for the axis of rotation, but relativistically it isn't much of a bulge.

okay, take your sphere and spin it 

then take your sphere and rotate it around you at an awsome speed

what is the axial stability factor?

is it the same?

now rotate you and it around another point of reference, far off, in a different plane at an even faster rate.


is it the same?


now take it, you, and the distant point of reference and rotate all of that around the center of the galaxy in a still different plane roughly 90 degrees to the plane of your previous references at an even faster rate.


what is your axial stability factor?

we now have 4 vectors of angular momentum, the fastest of which is at 90 degrees (sort of) to the first two and I am not sure of the plane of the third - we will leave that unknown for now.

there is another vector or two to go but we can't even get close to figuring those out.

NOW, let's talk axial stability within this frame of cosmic reference


Michael Wells Mandeville
"Return of the Phoenix" at http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/phoenix.html

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 12:22:04 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:18:55 -0700 X-Intended-For: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
X-Sender: mwm aa.net
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:20:39 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Mandeville <mwm aa.net>
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"P2AYs2.0.-44.RKEup" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 01:28 PM 7/31/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On Jul 31, 12:23pm, Steve Ekwall wrote:
>
>>  Does your liquid, in your liquid mantle, spin/"SLIP" faster or Slower
>> than the crust/skin??
>
>Neither.  Ultimately an unstable relationship, but core/mantle/crust need to
>travel at the same speed and same angular momentum.  If the crust didn't sync,
>resulting friction would quickly melt it.   Perhaps this is why there is a
>liquid mantle?

essentially correct

however, the frictional coefficient is not what we think it is looking at the behaviour of surface material

it can be argued that the crust and the core, speaking crudely, can free wheel independently

more, it can be argued that there is a slight drag in the crust always, which is part of the energy of tectonics.

even more, there is evidence that we are in free flight right now and that the rate of precession is speeding up.

>
>>  Wouldn't ALL crustal DRIFT be going the "SAME DIRECTION".??
>
>Plate movement and crust slip are not the same thing.  Perhaps inter-related,
>but entirely different mechanics.
>
>

yes and no, the moon is the main common factor,  more later Michael Wells Mandeville
"Return of the Phoenix" at http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/phoenix.html

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 04:32:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:27:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Stop quoting everything!
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:26:10 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"E9GR42.0.9m3.sQ7up" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 04:09 AM 7/31/97 +0000, lewis edward wrote:
>
>
>On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>
>> At 03:21 AM 7/31/97 +0000, lewis edward wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >I agree.  
>> >
>> I agree too. But with what?   :-)
>> 
>> Regards,     Frederick
>> 
 
>I was agreeing to Jed Rothwell's statement of concern about the 
>reprinting of the message that people reply to.   :-)
>
>
Agreed. Perhaps Jed could repost an edited version of his statement so we can follow his instructions on "saving kilobytes".

Please let me know if you agree. In edited form of course. Agreed? :-)

Regards,     Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 01:50:29 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 01:41:06 -0700 Date:      Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:31:31 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" <peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: "Peter Glueck" <peter itim.org.soroscj.ro> Subject:   Re: Gravity Vortex Tectonics Resent-Message-ID: <"QaCHT.0.8f2.X-4up"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:50:29 -0700, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote:
      Dear Michael,
I wish you great success with the new book!
The flaws of the existing models of tectonics became evident  when I tried to study CF as the internal source of energy of Earth.
For insolation data, try "alternative energy sources, solar" on the  <www.theriver.com> searching machine(s) or at <www.eren.doe.gov>; I remember to have seen the data when I wrote my course re. energy efficiency, based exclusively on Internet data.
Glad to see you back,
Peter
-- 
dr. Peter Gluck

Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology         Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700           Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania                                  Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 04:40:43 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:36:06 -0700 Date: 31 Jul 97 07:34:26 EDT
From: Gene <76570.2270 CompuServe.COM>
To: VORTEX <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Suppression Study
Resent-Message-ID: <"CEA_g2.0.et4.bY7up" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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This was sent to me -- thought I'd pass it along.

Gene

********


Suppression of innovations - a research project at the

I n s t i t u t e  f o r  j o u r n a l i s m  s t u d i e s

D o r t m u n d  U n i v e r s i t y  /  G e r m a n y

Project supervisor:
Prof. Dr. Claus Eurich
Emil-Figge-Strasse 50
44227 Dortmund
GERMANY                                           Date 17.07.97 ---------------------------------------------------------------

Dear net-community,

today I am starting a worldwide network survey, which is a part of the research project "Suppression of innovations, inventions and findings - media myth, conspiracy theory or reality?".

This survey is directed to all scientists, inventors, engineers and developers. Its major purpose is to answer the following questions:

- Is there intentional suppression of scientific and
  technological innovations and findings?

- How large is the scale of suppressive actions?

- How do the methods of suppression work?

- Who are the suppressors and the suppressed?

The corresponding questionnaire is available on the homepage of this project (URL http://pweb.eunet.de/pr-hoppe.DO/  please mind the capital letters!) or via anonymous email request (described below).

But first of all, I would like to introduce myself.

---------------------------------------------------------------- Who is conducting this survey?
----------------------------------------------------------------

My Name is Heinz O. Hoppe. I'm a under graduate of the institute for journalism studies at the Dortmund University/ Germany. In 1993 I started studying the potentials and limitations of the usage of computer-networks.
(cf. HOPPE, H. 19993: Globale Pinnwaende - in German - ftp://ftp.uni-koeln.de/institute/soziologiesem/cmc/hoppe.93.zip)

At the same time, I've been working as a freelance journalist for the german public broadcasting service ARD and some national newspapers since 1992. The focus of my work is the reporting on scientific, enviromental and economical issues.

On the homepage of this project
(URL http://pweb.eunet.de/pr-hoppe.DO/  please mind the capital letters!), you'll find scanned images of two documents, which will prove my identity and authorization:

1. A certification letter from the Dortmund University 2. My official presscard

If you don't have access to the world-wide-web, you can retrieve the questionnaire and the certification documents via anonymous email request. Just send an email to w3mail gmd.de and include the following lines in the body of your message:

   GET http://pweb.eunet.de/pr-hoppe.DO/nova-e.txt
      (for the questionnaire)
   GET http://pweb.eunet.de/pr-hoppe.DO/verifier.gif
      (for the certification)
   GET http://pweb.eunet.de/pr-hoppe.DO/presscrd.gif
      (for the presscard)

   !Again: Please mind the capital letters in the URL!

After this, you'll obtain the requested documents as email messages in ascii resp. uuencoded format. Naturally you can send your request to my email adress Nova pr-hoppe.DO.eunet.de as well.

If you have any doubt concerning my person and my authorization, please visit the homepage of the institute for journalism studies at the Dortmund university
(URL http://www.fb15.uni-dortmund.de/ifj/index.html ). You'll find there a certified link to the homepage of my project.
I'm using a personal homepage for this survey for technical and financial reasons.

Thank you for spending your time and your interest!

Yours sincerely
Heinz O. Hoppe

Reply to heinz pr-hoppe.do.eunet.de

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 05:18:05 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:05:51 -0700 Date: 31 Jul 97 08:03:32 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of c Resent-Message-ID: <"OyGHf1.0.9c5.T-7up" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Robert,

For some reason your text keeps coming through as binary attachments.

As to conservation of angular momentum, it IS conserved if the whole planet tips over - this was covered by Gold in Nature in the 1950s.

A perfect sphere has ZERO AXIAL STABILITY.  The slightest push will tip its axis of rotation.

Of course, the Earth isn't a perfect sphere - not *quite*.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 06:14:41 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:58:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of c Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:56:55 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"OvVpu2.0.KX5.1m8up" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 12:03 PM 7/31/97 +0000, Chris wrote:

Edited for Brevity.
>Robert,
>
>angular momentum, IS conserved if the whole
> tips over - this was covered by Gold.
>
>ZERO AXIAL STABILITY.  push.
>
>Earth isn't perfect - not *quite*.
>
>Chris
>
Sure hope this meets Jed's editing criteria, Since he has set himself up as "List-Master". :-)

Then again, a water-filled balloon (about 20 cm diameter)attached to a 3 mm diameter vertical rod and spun with a variable-speed drill-motor might be interesting,especially as the speed is varied and the set-up is tilted.

Regards,   Frederick


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 06:39:26 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:36:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Gyroscopes and Gravity-AntiGravity Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:34:20 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"9lWP02.0.Z27._I9up" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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To Vortex:

Did a bit of web searching on Gyroscopes using; www. Excite.com search engine.
There was an item connected to Keelynet about a Brit (back in 1974) who mounted a couple of gyroscopes in a "box" and spun them up with electric motors and noticed a weight drop of 5 pounds off the 20 pounds.

Any connection to the Tampere "Gravity Anomaly?

Regards,    Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 07:03:58 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:55:18 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:47:32 -0500
References: <l03102800b000187c6add [207.147.205.189]> 
	<970725225053_2059481044 emout05.mail.aol.com> 
	<l03102800b005b13c78db 207.147.205.172> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"9jH-v3.0.NK1.5b9up" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Jul 30, 10:25pm, Rick Monteverde wrote:
> Maybe the whole planet rolls over guts and all.

Not guts and all, just the skin.  The whole skin slides over the liquid mantle to a position of lower energy equilibrium due to an augmentation of the angular momentum.  There would be significant fractures and dramatic movements in the plates, but everything should move together due to pre-event moment of inertia of the crust mass.

The documented magnetic flips may be the exact opposite, however.  The skin stays put, and the solid core under the mantle gyroscopically inverts itself.

> But I would think any big crustal shell movements during the
> production of the visible island/seamount chain ought to show show through
> due to the mantle plume's rather consistent position.

Not really, if you think about it.  Think of the plume as an established thin spot in the crust that habitually leaks.  Unless there is some unknown phenomena that makes the mantle under you hotter than anywhere else on the planet, the thin spot will continue to leak no matter where you move it.  This is especially true if it is only the result of ungoing plate friction.  If the entire crust moves and does not tear in the process, the basic localized structure and historic alignments should remain undisturbed and continue to develop in an identical manner.

That's the fun part of the theory.  Lack of evidence goes towards proof of the event.  Yet, without evidence, how do we prove anything?  8^)

Ow.  My brain hurts now.  Over and out.

-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 07:17:10 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:01:02 -0500
References: <3.0.32.19970730230226.00cfe740 aa.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"yF9i31.0.On.ro9up" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Jul 31, 12:53am, Michael Mandeville wrote:

> Don't bother spending much time on it.  I am doing it for you.  In about
> two weeks expect major download of a model for geo-mechanics.

Great!  I look forward to it.




-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 06:05:35 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:34:22 -0700
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stop quoting everything!
References: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970730232110.22446B-100000 ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"XKYZo.0.8Q5.ii8up"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Gnorts!

While we are on the subject, it is EXTREMELY bad form to post someone's address or phone number publicly, even in this mailing list without their EXPRESS permission.

Most people today value their privacy and are usually upset when they find out contact info for them is being indiscriminately passed around without their blessing.

The more savvy people use a PO BOX for public contacts, though with the InterNet, it is possible to find out most people's address and phone number if you hunt it down.

So please don't post such information unless you ask them personally if you have their permission to do so.
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 08:02:29 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:54:52 -0700 From: Puthoff@aol.com
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:54:06 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Rel;ativity and Gravity-AntiGravity Resent-Message-ID: <"41HOv1.0.Sk4.vSAup" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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In a message dated 7/31/97 6:54:59 AM, Fred Sparber wrote:

<<"Shields Up and Tractor Beam On"! Won't work against LASERs Though. :-)>>

Not so sure about that.  Blue-shift yourself up to high freq and the laser beam will look like an infrared puff!  :-)

Hal Puthoff


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 08:25:18 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: 31 Jul 97 11:14:36 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Publishing addresses
Resent-Message-ID: <"M09DI1.0.Uv3.8oAup" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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To: Vortex

Jerry W. Decker writes:

     While we are on the subject, it is EXTREMELY bad form to post someone's
     address or phone number publicly, even in this mailing list without
     their EXPRESS permission.

I have never heard of such a thing. Every scientist and science writer I know publishes his or her address freely in faculty guides, conference List of Attendees, in the introduction to scientific papers, et cetera. Nearly everyone, including me, is listed in the telephone directory. The only person I know who keeps his e-mail address confidential is Arthur C. Clarke, for obvious reasons. Accessibility, openness, and free communication are essential to progress.


     Most people today value their privacy and are usually upset when they
     find out contact info for them is being indiscriminately passed around
     without their blessing.

Unless you have unlisted number and you have taken extraordinary steps to cover your tracks, I can find you in 10 minutes anywhere in the U.S. or Japan, through various Internet guides and the CD-ROM edition of the U.S. telephone books.


     The more savvy people use a PO BOX for public contacts . . .

I would call that paranoid, not savvy. I see no reason why any ordinary person would make himself inaccessible. Unless you are a film star or someone is threatening your life, why hide?

- Jed

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 08:33:24 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:24:58 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Rel;ativity and Gravity-AntiGravity Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:23:35 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"J4Uci.0.B67.9vAup" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 02:54 PM 7/31/97 +0000, Hal wrote:
>
>In a message dated 7/31/97 6:54:59 AM, Fred Sparber wrote:
>
><<"Shields Up and Tractor Beam On"! Won't work against LASERs Though. :-)>>
>
>Not so sure about that.  Blue-shift yourself up to high freq and the laser
>beam will look like an infrared puff!  :-)
>
>Hal Puthoff
>
>
>
One could always use *smoke and mirrors* as a last resort.  :-)

Regards,   Fred Sparber

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 10:09:32 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:06:27 -0700 Date: 31 Jul 97 13:04:03 EDT
From: Terry Blanton <76016.2701 CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:vortex-l@eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: Re: Publishing addresses
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Jed,

>>     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187<<

Anyone giving their address as RoT *should* be paranoid!  <g>

Terry

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 10:04:50 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:01:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:07:12 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"jMWQ22.0.bs4.TJCup" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, John Steck wrote:
> -snip-
> Not guts and all, just the skin.  The whole skin slides over the liquid mantle
> to a position of lower energy equilibrium due to an augmentation of the angular
> momentum. -snip-
> , and the solid core under the mantle gyroscopically inverts itself.
> 
John, 
 Does your liquid, in your liquid mantle, spin/"SLIP" faster or Slower than the crust/skin??
since we're turning west to east, and centrifical force would hold out the skin/crust, Wouldn't ALL crustial DRIFT be going the "SAME DIRECTION".?? 
Doesn't Jive with crustial Geo,I don't believe, this is the case with colliding continents isn't it? or are all land masses getting slammed on their west sides only?


se
1 of the last Cowboys in Colorado,'the End of 100 year song' -------------------------------------------------------.edu+ back to basic(s)     Steve Ekwall           POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com    1.303.293.2FAX         wk.1.800.798.1100

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 11:04:12 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:00:47 -0700 Date: 31 Jul 97 13:28:54 EDT
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: The list master
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To: Vortex

Frederick J. Sparber writes:

   Sure hope this meets Jed's editing criteria, Since he has set himself
   up as "List-Master". :-)

I realize this is a joke, but I would like to point out again (gently, I hope) that Bill Beaty really is the list master here. He is paying money out of his own pocket to run Vortex-L, and we should all thank him and even mail donations as he requested from time to time. He is the author of the "short quote" rule I cited. I agree with that rule 100%, and with the other rules he posted.

Jerry Decker proposes a "no address" rule. This is something outside my experience. I have never heard of anyone suggesting is it bad form or poor eqiquette (or "net-iquette") to give out addresses - of all things.
Unless Bill sets a new rule discouraging the practice, I indend to continue posting short notices when I get change-of-address notices, bulletins and new papers from CF scientists. I do not see how this can be construed as an invasion of privacy, since anyone can find any address in ten minutes without my help. I am just saving some effort and helping people keep their address books up to date.

Speaking of addresses, it looks like they are going to tear down my office building, if it does not fall down on its own first. Reportedly they want to build a house of ill-repute here, which wouldn't surprise me. So I may need to publish a change-of-address notice, but it hasn't happened yet. So far they have dug a good sized test hole in the parking lot just outside my window. They thought they ran into the remains of a garbage dump under the foundations. That wouldn't surprise me either.

- Jed

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 08:50:56 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:46:47 -0700 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:34:45 -0700
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Publishing addresses
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Hi Jed!

It is a matter of courtesy, not paranoia.  Like many others, I too have a raft of addresses (usually home) and phone numbers but would never pass them around in a public forum without first asking the person being so advertised.

It is not a matter of hiding, simply respect for others privacy.  There is nothing more irritating or discourteous than people popping up on your doorstep, unvited and unannounced, expecting you to make time for them as if you owe them.  Perhaps you have the free time to entertain uninvited or unscheduled vistors, I and many people I know do not have such a luxury. 

No question that even a semi-diligent search would provide either address or phone number or both. But that happens when someone really needs to make contact. 

People can do what they want, but for myself, I would never do my contacts such a discourtesy unless they first said it was ok.
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 11:42:49 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:28:50 -0500
References: <Pine.UW2.3.95.970731105022.17731A-100000 november> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"UzaNg2.0.rm4.5kDup" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Jul 31, 12:23pm, Steve Ekwall wrote:

>  Does your liquid, in your liquid mantle, spin/"SLIP" faster or Slower
> than the crust/skin??

Neither.  Ultimately an unstable relationship, but core/mantle/crust need to travel at the same speed and same angular momentum.  If the crust didn't sync, resulting friction would quickly melt it.   Perhaps this is why there is a liquid mantle?

>  Wouldn't ALL crustal DRIFT be going the "SAME DIRECTION".??

Plate movement and crust slip are not the same thing.  Perhaps inter-related, but entirely different mechanics.



-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 12:20:52 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:13:27 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John Steck" <johnste@ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:05:40 -0500
References: <970731172854_72240.1256_EHB52-1 CompuServe.COM> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The list master
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On Jul 31, 12:55pm, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Jerry Decker proposes a "no address" rule. This is something outside my
> experience. I have never heard of anyone suggesting is it bad form or
> poor eqiquette (or "net-iquette") to give out addresses - of all things.
> Unless Bill sets a new rule discouraging the practice, I indend to continue
> posting short notices when I get change-of-address notices, bulletins and
> new papers from CF scientists. I do not see how this can be construed as an
> invasion of privacy, since anyone can find any address in ten minutes without
> my help. I am just saving some effort and helping people keep their address
> books up to date.

I don't think it was proposed as a rule, just a common courtesy reminder.  I am not a public figure and presently have no desire to become one.  I am certain many share my opinion.  If someone gives you permission pass their info along and does not mind the attention, more power to them.  Post their stuff.  Let them get SPAM'ed.  My participation on this list does not signify a waver of any of my rights to anyone for any reason.  Looking me up is not necessarily an invasion of privacy, broadcasting what you find in a public forum can be.  Do what you think is best, but I think it good advice and definitely good practice to get permission first.  I am sorry you feel otherwise.

-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 12:47:16 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:43:21 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram@aol.com
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:41:30 -0400 (EDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"LSLAx2.0.a97.LhEup" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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In a message dated 97-07-30 23:41:19 EDT, you write:

<< From:	eachus mitre.org (Robert I. Eachus)  
 
      The eroded seamounts at the other end of the chain from Big Island  extend for thousands more miles-- >>

Yes, and if you follow that chain notice that it takes about a 45 degree jog a ways back. This is, of course underwater but I wonder what caused the jog?

Vince
Las Vegas Nevada

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 12:53:06 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:51:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: The list master
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:49:20 +0000
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You know darn well that I was teasing, Jed. 

Happens that I like your style.

Sorry about the about the new neighborhood.  :-)

I built a country home on about 5 acres 40 years ago and commuted some 40 miles to Albuquerque-Sandia Labs for most of that, so that I could stay a country boy.

Now, the new "Super Wal-Mart" five "blocks" away is about finished and the adjacent 21 acres of prime farmland (the front yard that I should've bought at $350/acre) sold for $750K and is going to be paved over for a Shopping Center.

Trade you the Shopping center for the Cat House.   :-)

I need to send Bill Beaty an expense compensation check, think you would be out of line in posting his mailing address for the benefit of us procrastinators.  :-)

 Best Regards,    Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 15:35:41 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:22:56 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Michael Mandeville wrote:
> >>Steve Ekwall wrote:
> >>  Does your liquid, in your liquid mantle, spin/"SLIP" faster or Slower
> >> than the crust/skin??
> >John Steck wrote:
> >Neither.  Ultimately an unstable relationship, but core/mantle/crust need to
> >travel at the same speed and same angular momentum.  If the crust didn't
> sync, (sic***)
> >resulting friction would quickly melt it.   Perhaps this is why there *is* a
> >liquid mantle?
> 
MM> essentially correct
> 
> it can be argued that the crust and the core, speaking crudely, can free
> wheel independently
> more, it can be argued that there is a* *slight drag in the crust** always,
> which is part of the energy of tectonics.
> > even more, there is evidence that we are in free flight right now and that
> the rate of precession is speeding up.
> 
se: writes:
*liquid core and **slight drag** brought up the original question, but you threw a curve with "PREcession" 'speeding up', (vs)? PROcession 'speeding up' (i think I got the slower going faster here :) at least it's moving!:) --- back to basic's (i hope) --
1:) initially we were just a hot spinning piece of cosmic spit -NO CRUST- 2:) cooling throughtout our galactic travel -WE COOL'ed (Are Cooling!)
    2a:) assumming we're still HOT near/at Core = Liquid Core 3:) Original Question (tried to ask) *IF liquid Core* is it spinning
    faster or slower than the now cooled outer crust.
------------end of my back to basic's --------------- 4:) [PROBLEM] now you say, there is evidence that it may be SPEEDING UP??

Question1: appears to be MOVING by either of your replies faster/slower...
(in sync or out-snyc) so back to my original question *IS IT FASTER (y)(n) or SLOWER (y)(n). If neither, we sure have some nifty mountain ranges changing heights around here... I hear 'K2' may now be higher than Everest, or 'soon' will be.

Question2: How can our cosmic 'spit' (earth) start SPEEDING its internal slippage (great heat=greater slippage), while at the same time we are traveling further from point A (big-bang) or outwardly from all other sources of HEAT or ATTRACTIVE MASS (other systems expanding)..

This is *NOT* a question of CLOSED Universe -vs- OPEN Universe, but more a ponder on liquid centers (Iron/nickel.. whatever) being cooler and cooler and cooler.

MM> yes and no, the moon is the main common factor,  more later
> Michael Wells Mandeville
> "Return of the Phoenix" at http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/phoenix.html

Whoa there!! The MOON?? are you suggesting that as it falls 1/4" a year, that is our external heat source?  To allow the speed up?  
Cool!  (er, Hot!:) worth an extra chew or two on that one..

(visualising sparks warming 'each other' as the climb from a campfire.) i know, i know 'newtonian observation' :) hey, this is the universe i live in at the moment.

se
1 of the last Cowboys in Colorado,'the End of 100 year song' -------------------------------------------------------.edu+ back to basic(s)     Steve Ekwall           POBox 1255-80150 ekwall2 diac.com    1.303.293.2FAX         wk.1.800.798.1100 common sense, isn't so common
 

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 15:42:48 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: 31 Jul 97 18:35:21 EDT
From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 CompuServe.COM> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of c Resent-Message-ID: <"0pNry.0.eF6.3FHup" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Michael,

 > actually the bulge at the equater is cited as one of the  > stabilizing factors for the axis of rotation, but relativistically  > it isn't much of a bulge.

And of course it *does* stabilise the rotation - a bit, because it is relatively small (like 1% or less in terms of diameter.

"Relativistically" is a word most commonly used in reference to Einstein's theory, and I don't see where relativity comes into this - it's classical mechanics (sorry, John).

 > okay, take your sphere and spin it
 > 
 > then take your sphere and rotate it around you at an awsome speed  > 
 > what is the axial stability factor?

I don't understand what your question is.  If the sphere is not deformed by its spin, then it keeps on having zero axial stability.  And it isn't really a very liquid sort of sphere, it's more likely to keep intact as it flips over.  If it is like Hal Clement's Mesklin in his excellent hard SF novel *Mission of Gravity*, then its period of rotation is 20 minutes, it's the size of a moderate gas giant, it looks like a discus, and it's surface gravity varies from 600g at the poles down to 3g at the equator.

And it has *serious* axial stability.

Chris

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  1 02:42:03 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:36:36 -0700 X-Intended-For: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 02:38:24 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Mandeville <mwm aa.net>
Subject: Re: Scientists report radical shift of continents Resent-Message-ID: <"NFSqp3.0.Zd3.YuQup" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 04:22 PM 7/31/97 -0600, you wrote:
>On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Michael Mandeville wrote:
>> >>Steve Ekwall wrote:
>> >>  Does your liquid, in your liquid mantle, spin/"SLIP" faster or Slower
>> >> than the crust/skin??
>> >John Steck wrote:
>> >Neither.  Ultimately an unstable relationship, but core/mantle/crust need to
>> >travel at the same speed and same angular momentum.  If the crust didn't
>> sync, (sic***)
>> >resulting friction would quickly melt it.   Perhaps this is why there
>*is* a
>> >liquid mantle?
>> 
>MM> essentially correct
>> 
>> it can be argued that the crust and the core, speaking crudely, can free
>> wheel independently
>> more, it can be argued that there is a* *slight drag in the crust** 
>always,
>> which is part of the energy of tectonics.
>> > even more, there is evidence that we are in free flight right now and that
>> the rate of precession is speeding up.
>> 
>se: writes:
>*liquid core and **slight drag** brought up the original question, but you
>threw a curve with "PREcession" 'speeding up', (vs)? PROcession 'speeding
>up' (i think I got the slower going faster here :) at least it's moving!:)
>--- back to basic's (i hope) --
>1:) initially we were just a hot spinning piece of cosmic spit -NO CRUST-
>2:) cooling throughtout our galactic travel -WE COOL'ed (Are Cooling!)
>    2a:) assumming we're still HOT near/at Core = Liquid Core
>3:) Original Question (tried to ask) *IF liquid Core* is it spinning
>    faster or slower than the now cooled outer crust.
>------------end of my back to basic's ---------------
>4:) [PROBLEM] now you say, there is evidence that it may be SPEEDING UP??
>
>Question1: appears to be MOVING by either of your replies faster/slower...
>(in sync or out-snyc) so back to my original question *IS IT FASTER (y)(n)
>or SLOWER (y)(n). If neither, we sure have some nifty mountain ranges
>changing heights around here... I hear 'K2' may now be higher than
>Everest, or 'soon' will be.
>

sorry to confuse you.  precession in my mind means moving backwards out of synch, which implies a slow down to my warped mental processes.

what i intended to say is that the crust rotation is slightly slower than the core rotation, thus its apparant position is precessing backwards from where it was


>Question2: How can our cosmic 'spit' (earth) start SPEEDING its internal 
>slippage (great heat=greater slippage), while at the same time we are
>traveling further from point A (big-bang) or outwardly from all other
>sources of HEAT or ATTRACTIVE MASS (other systems expanding)..
>
>This is *NOT* a question of CLOSED Universe -vs- OPEN Universe, but more a
>ponder on liquid centers (Iron/nickel.. whatever) being cooler and cooler
>and cooler.
>

we have a whole lot of different planes of motion.  I can't sort them out in the context of supposed big bang

>MM> yes and no, the moon is the main common factor,  more later
>> Michael Wells Mandeville
>> "Return of the Phoenix" at http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/phoenix.html
>
>Whoa there!! The MOON?? are you suggesting that as it falls 1/4" a year,
>that is our external heat source?  To allow the speed up?  
>Cool!  (er, Hot!:) worth an extra chew or two on that one..
>

nope not at all
Michael Wells Mandeville
"Return of the Phoenix" at http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/phoenix.html

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 19:07:36 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:59:44 -0700 X-Sender: frederick.sparber@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net> Subject: Creating a Vortex the easy way.
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:59:06 +0000
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To Vortex:

Okay you guys, check out this web site for a down-home practical way to create a clean vortex: 
http://www.inter-connections.com/funnlweb

You folks in the antipodes may see a reverse Coriolis Effect. :-)

Regards,     Frederick

X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 21:33:50 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:27:50 -0700 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:27:43 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com (Unverified) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Let's build a big 1000 pound (of copper wire) newman motor !
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At 01:35 AM 7/31/97 -0400, HLafonte wrote:

>   Can anyone tell me what the copper costs would be for a 1000 pounds of
>copper wire for Joe's newest design.

about $2.50-3.00$/lb

>With the magnets and hardware, would the
>cost be over nine thousand dollars?

not if you could do the design and assembly for free.  You could have a machine shop make all the necessary parts for a couple thousand.

>If not I have an idea as to how one can
>be build and then have it tested. A lot of questions could be answered.

Actually, there might only be 1 question answered by such a test:

 "Does this particular version of Newman's machine work as he claims?"

If your machine didn't work, you could say "No" to the above question but that's about all.  Of course, if it DID work you'd be in tall cotton...but how likely is that?

That's why it is much better to test one of Newman's own machines.  If that doesn't work we can close the Newman file forever.  If it DOES work...well, that brings up another subject:  

I understand that Newman has gotten a few independent tests performed on his machine and that they indicated positive results.  What I can't understand is what those people are doing right now!?  If we had tested Newman's machine...and confirmed his performance claims...you'd be seeing press releases about the development of commercial energy sources by now.

Waiting for a chance to test Newman's own machine - Scott Little


X-From_: vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 31 21:42:30 1997 Return-Path: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:32:02 -0700 From: "Joe E. Champion" <discpub@goodnet.com> Reply-To: "JoeC@transmutation.com" <JoeC@transmutation.com> To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: Hey gang I'm back
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:30:26 -0700
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I haven't had the opportunity to share in the magnitude of mail flowing through this group so I stepped out for a bit.

Now things are becoming more relaxed in my life, I thought for a novelty of cyberspace and the heated debated that use to be present in vortex, I would add some excitement.

With the assistance of vortex members Bill Stehl and Dan York I have established a vortex scientific Cuseeme reflector.  This way people from all parts of the World can communicate in audio, video and/or share documentation.

Software to join the reflector can be found at www.cuseeme.com

Once you are on line, go to the following IP:

207.204.154.98

Enter conference number 2 (Titled vortex)

Use the password:  vortex  (lower case only)

That will allow any of you to communicate.  I tested it out today with Spain and Italy and it works as well as a telephone line.

This channel is limited to 10 users at a time to save bandwidth on my T-1 line.  It's available free and enjoy.

By the way, commercial transmutation is going GREAT.  AND, to my knowledge. 
we haven't use prayers, nor ask Higher Powers for direction.  That is not to say that we may not in the future, but personally I will wait until Barry Merriman writes the mathematical formula which includes the "Divine Intervention Quotient."  That one will out sell that guy (keep forgetting his name) who said "God doesn't role dice."

Respectfully


Joe Champion